From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 1 06:58:08 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 07:58:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: BA11-C and BA11-E mounting boxes Message-ID: <20181201125808.62CBD18C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> For some actual content about classic computers (instead of flaming about various ideas for improving existing systems), I think I've worked out why the BA11-C and BA11-E mounting boxes have out of sequence variant codes. It's obvious the variants were not assigned in creation order (the /44 and /24 use the -A variant box), but the -C and -E (the earliest variants, it seems) apparently come from the fact that the first is used to hold the CPU and console (for the /20), and the latter is an Expansion box. And speaking of the -C/-E, somewhat to my surprise, I've discovered that their H720 Power Supply is actually a switching supply. Ironically, its manual gives a _far_ better explanation of the EI conversion concept than the later H742 one (which we discussed here at some length, after it confused me no end). Speak of BA11 variants, I've seen mention a BA11-B on Web sites, but only a single ref in a DEC manual (the DH11 Maint Man); does anyone have a pointer to a location where it's dicussed at more length? If so, thanks! Noel From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Dec 1 11:16:15 2018 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 09:16:15 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 6800 Board Bucket and 4051 Working Together Video Message-ID: <010e01d48999$93320f00$b9962d00$@bettercomputing.net> I'm not sure how many of you who are on this list are on the vcfed.org forum, but just for those who aren't, with the help of Dave and Monty from there, I have recently restored a 4051 I bought a couple years ago to working condition. Last night with their guidance I connected it to a Tektronix development system called the Board Bucket, also a 6800 driven machine that Tek engineers/employees could buy from Tek (I think in parts) that I purchased previously. With the 4051 in terminal mode, we were able to demonstrate that the BASIC in ROM in the Board Bucket can drive graphics on the Tek terminal. This was pretty much clear after I dumped the ROMs and Dave had a close look at them, but it was still very cool to see the two working together nonetheless. I feel very privileged to have both one of the products of Tek's computer development efforts and the development machine used to help create it (and/or others) in my possession. Anyway for those interested, I posted a 4 min video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSkHRzx5Bno Brad From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 1 11:34:15 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 12:34:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: eBay search fail Message-ID: <20181201173415.3A87918C134@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > On a whim, I tried searching for '"pdp-11" "pdp-11"' (i.e. just > repeated the keyword), and this time it _did_ turn it up! Very odd. > I wonder why that made a difference? So I have a new theory about this. Searching for 'pdp-11' causes eBay to automagically limit the search to the 'Vintage Computing' category. They must have a keyword->category database. Anyway, if I manually then select 'All' categories, I get the same results for searches for both 'pdp-11' and 'pdp-11 pdp-11'. So my theory is that 'pdp-11 pdp-11' _doesn't_ hit their database, and so it goes to 'All' - thereby producing different results. So I just have to hit 'All' every time I do a search... Noel From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Dec 1 12:46:12 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 11:46:12 -0700 Subject: Text encoding Babel. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181127012152.00dd6d80@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181127210546.010d51c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <8d2d49d0-2d85-5e0b-dbe7-1707e61913ed@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <0824d17c-8b8e-cbc3-5e96-6e5d673bdad2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6b0872d7-e534-dd90-9261-3e7f9f675e9f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 11/30/18 3:22 PM, Grant Taylor wrote: > Aside:? I suspect that none of the (plain-text / non-MIME) digest > subscribers will see that properly.? I've found out from Mark S., > Mailman's maintainer, that UTF-8 isn't maintained in the plain-text / > non-MIME digest. If anyone cares (I did manage to get subscribed in time)? The Unicode (and format=flowed line wrapping) survives the digesting process for the MIME digest. The text digest corrupted Unicode (and format=flowed). I forgot how nice MIME digests could be. (Assuming your MUA understands multipart/digest with message/rfc822 attachments.) ? I'm actually replying to the digest attachment and it should get threaded with the proper message. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jim.manley at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 14:07:47 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 13:07:47 -0700 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181127012152.00dd6d80@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181127210546.010d51c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <8d2d49d0-2d85-5e0b-dbe7-1707e61913ed@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <0824d17c-8b8e-cbc3-5e96-6e5d673bdad2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6b0872d7-e534-dd90-9261-3e7f9f675e9f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 3:28 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/30/2018 02:33 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > There's enough slack in the approved offerings that electives can be > > weighted more toward the technical direction (e.g., user interface and > > experience) or the arts direction (e.g., psychology and history). The > idea > > was to close the severely-growing gap between those who know everything > > about computing and those who need to know enough, but not everything, to > > be truly effective in the information-dominant world we've been careening > > toward without nearly enough preparation of future generations. > > I kept thinking to myself that many of the people that are considered > pioneers in computers were actually something else by trade and learned > how to use computers and / or created what they needed for the computer > to be able to do their primary job. > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > Most people know that Newton's motivation for developing calculus was explaining the motions of the planets, but not many know that he served as the Warden, and then Master, of the Royal Mint, as well as being fascinated with optics and vision (to the point where he inserted a needle into one of his eyes!) and a closet alchemist. His competitor, Leibniz, was motivated to develop calculus by a strong desire to win more billiards bets from his fellow wealthy buddies in Hanover, the financial capital of Germany at the time, while developing the mathematics of the physics governing the collisions of billiard balls. Babbage was motivated to develop calculating and computing machines to eliminate the worldwide average of seven errors per page in astronomical, navigational, and mathematical tables of the 1820s. Shannon and Hamming (with whom I worked - the latter, not the former!) were motivated to represent Boolean logic in digital circuits and improve long-distance communications by formalizing how to predictably ferret more signal out of noise. Turing was motivated to test his computing theories to break the Nazi Enigma ciphers (character-oriented, vs. word-oriented codes) and moved far beyond the mathematical underpinnings of his theories into the engineering of Colossus and the bombes. Hollerith was motivated by the requirement to complete the decennial census tabulations within 10 years (the 1890 census was going to take 13 years to tabulate using traditional manual methods within the available budget). Mauchly and Eckert were motivated to automate calculations for ballistics tables for WW-II weapons systems that were being fielded faster than tables could be produced manually. Hopper developed the first compiler and the first programming language to use English words, Flow-Matic, that led, in turn, to COBOL being created to meet financial software needs. John Backus and the other developers of FORTRAN were likewise motivated by scientific and engineering calculation requirements. Kernigan, Ritchie, and Thompson were motivated by a desire to perform an immense prank, in the form of Unix and A/B/BCPL/C, on an unsuspecting and all-too-serious professional computing world ( http://www.stokely.com/lighter.side/unix.prank.html). Gates and Allen were motivated by all of the money lying around on desks, in their drawers, and in the drawers worn by the people sitting at said desks, to foist PC/MS-DOS and Windows on the less serious computing public. Kildall was motivated by the challenges of developing multi-pass compilation on systems with minimal microcomputer hardware resources. Meanwhile, the rest of the computing field was motivated to pursue the next shinier pieces of higher-performance hardware, developing ever-more-bloated programming languages, OSes, services, and applications that continue to slow down even the latest-and-greatest systems. Berners-Lee was motivated to help scientists and engineers at the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN - the Conseil Europ?en pour la Recherche Nucl?aire) organize and share their work without having to become expert software developers in their own right. Yang, Filo, Brin, Page, Zuckerberg, et al, were motivated by whatever money could be scrounged from sofas used by couch-surfing, homeless Millenials (redundant syntax fully intended), and from local news outlets' advertising accounts. Selling everyone's, but their own, personally-identifiable information, probably including that of their own mothers, has been a welcome additional cornucopia of revenue to them. Computer science and engineering degrees weren't even offered yet when I attended the heavily science and engineering oriented naval institution where I earned my BS in engineering (70% of degrees awarded were in STEM fields). The closest you could get were math and electrical engineering degrees, taking the very few electives offered in CS and CE disciplines. Granted, the computer I primarily had access to was a secondhand GE-265 with drum storage (we each got a whopping 32 KBs for all of our software development ... yeah, that's with a K). There was also a PDP-8 in a rack on wheels movable between the various engineering labs - we had to plug it into a wall outlet for power, and a phone line for its modem to connect to our accounts on the GE-265. My senior year, we received an Evans and Sutherland Picture System 1 hardware-accelerated, 3-D vector wireframe workstation, mind-melded to a dedicated PDP-11/70 via a three-foot cube on its Mass Bus, containing 1 MB of dual-ported static RAM ... that alone cost a million smackers (a buck a byte!). I had to wait until I earned my MSCS 10 years later (taking care of my WW-II D-Day in Normandy/Bastogne/Bulge/etc., 101st Airborne Division paratrooper, POW, and vet Dad, and cancer-stricken Mom during that entire period) to "officially" be considered a computer scientist and software engineer (by HR weenies). That was despite being a full-time practitioner of both that entire decade, developing systems with a majority of components involving data, information, and knowledge processing. That turned out to be a blessing in disguise, as I've routinely had to show even some younger CS PhDs what discrete transistors look like (going all the way back to Bell Labs' 1947 dual gold point-contact germanium prototype) and how they work when presenting artifacts during tours at the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley. It's also been handy in jobs to be able to accurately describe the real-world effects of bone-headed decisions based purely on academic theoretical beliefs. In short, Necessity and Invention are Mothers ... From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Dec 1 16:47:04 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 22:47:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SPARCstation 20 with SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: <10fbfaee-01f4-301a-0868-47eed26c7f03@snowmoose.com> <31a45190-3920-9108-214a-ae9669a3446f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2018, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > I probably need to do a writeup on fully potted parts, like the 48T59 and > DS1287. See a photo documentary here: for my proposal of a DS1287 rework. I actually had a nasty surprise trying to rework a DS1287A, with a date code indicating a clearly faked marking. After removing the integrated coin cell the marking on the embedded IC revealed showed it wasn't even a DS1287A originally as the IC was a DS12B885. This is a part I haven't heard of existing, so I enquired Maxim, but they had no clue about it. I suspect the DS12B885 was the core of the DS12B887 (wired differently from both DS12887 and DS12887A), and the DS12B885 has never been marketed as a part on its own. Maciej From alan at alanlee.org Sat Dec 1 16:59:55 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2018 17:59:55 -0500 Subject: SPARCstation 20 with SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: <10fbfaee-01f4-301a-0868-47eed26c7f03@snowmoose.com> <31a45190-3920-9108-214a-ae9669a3446f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I'm not sure what the 'B' in the middle means (silicon rev?), but the DS12885 has been around for decades. I use them the JR-IDE project. -Alan On 2018-12-01 17:47, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 27 Nov 2018, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > >> I probably need to do a writeup on fully potted parts, like the 48T59 >> and >> DS1287. > > See a photo documentary here: > for my > proposal of a DS1287 rework. > > I actually had a nasty surprise trying to rework a DS1287A, with a > date > code indicating a clearly faked marking. After removing the integrated > coin cell the marking on the embedded IC revealed showed it wasn't even > a > DS1287A originally as the IC was a DS12B885. This is a part I haven't > heard of existing, so I enquired Maxim, but they had no clue about it. > I > suspect the DS12B885 was the core of the DS12B887 (wired differently > from > both DS12887 and DS12887A), and the DS12B885 has never been marketed as > a > part on its own. > > Maciej From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Dec 1 19:04:05 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 20:04:05 -0500 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? Message-ID: <1676c71a2d4-1ec7-61bf@webjas-vac236.srv.aolmail.net> we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Dec 1 20:27:46 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 21:27:46 -0500 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <1676c71a2d4-1ec7-61bf@webjas-vac236.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1676c71a2d4-1ec7-61bf@webjas-vac236.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <1676cbe3d01-1ec2-bc81@webjas-vae162.srv.aolmail.net> SHOULD? SAY? HARD? DRIVE? ? COULD NOT? SEE OVER THE STACK? OF? BOOKS ON THE DESK In a message dated 12/1/2018 6:04:12 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Dec 1 20:53:37 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 18:53:37 -0800 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <1676c71a2d4-1ec7-61bf@webjas-vac236.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1676c71a2d4-1ec7-61bf@webjas-vac236.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <96ed97bc-8bff-705c-0684-1cc0c817e129@snowmoose.com> A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. Yes, one with the dreaded battery. alan On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Dec 1 20:55:20 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 21:55:20 -0500 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <96ed97bc-8bff-705c-0684-1cc0c817e129@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <1676cd779b6-1ec4-3a3e@webjas-vac097.srv.aolmail.net> BUMMER It may become a static? display..... ? Ed# ? ? In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. Yes, one with the dreaded battery. alan On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Dec 1 21:04:00 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 19:04:00 -0800 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <1676cd779b6-1ec4-3a3e@webjas-vac097.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1676cd779b6-1ec4-3a3e@webjas-vac097.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery isn't that hard to make. In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power supplies. If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be re'capped now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD that needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with lunchbox systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for working 50-pin SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more sense (unless you want to exhibit them as they originally ran). alan On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > BUMMER > It may become a static display..... > > Ed# > > > In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. > Yes, one with the dreaded battery. > > alan > > On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > > we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... > does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed > > > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Dec 1 21:08:57 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 22:08:57 -0500 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1676ce3f191-1ec5-4cff@webjas-vae085.srv.aolmail.net> Hi? Alan - The? hard drive is same? size cabinet....? ? with? I? guess a? SCSSI? ?cable.? I? will have? to? look? at? it? ?further...? ?wonder if starting it? out on? a? variac? ?would? help the capacitors? like? I? do? with the old radio sets? here in the museum? ed#?? In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:04:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aperry at snowmoose.com writes: ? Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery isn't that hard to make. In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power supplies. If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be re'capped now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD that needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with lunchbox systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for working 50-pin SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more sense (unless you want to exhibit them as they originally ran). alan On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: BUMMER It may become a static? display..... ? Ed# ? ? In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. Yes, one with the dreaded battery. alan On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Dec 1 21:15:36 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 19:15:36 -0800 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <1676ce3f191-1ec5-4cff@webjas-vae085.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1676ce3f191-1ec5-4cff@webjas-vae085.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Yes. It is next to floppy in the upper half of the chassis. There is a 50-pin (IDC connectors) ribbon cable that goes down to system board at the bottom of the lower half of the chassis. The chassis splits in the vertical middle in a, if looking at the chassis, fairly obvious place. Because of the cables that run from the top to bottom, it effectively hinges at the front of the chassis. There a couple buttons on the side to release and sometimes a security cable bit to remove (phillips screw). On 12/1/18 7:08 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > Hi? Alan - The? hard drive is same? size cabinet....? ? with? I? guess > a SCSSI? ?cable.? I? will have? to? look? at? it ?further...? ?wonder > if starting it? out on? a? variac ?would? help the capacitors? like? > I? do? with the old radio sets? here in the museum? ed# > > In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:04:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > aperry at snowmoose.com writes: > > Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new > from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery > isn't that hard to make. > > In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power supplies. > If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be re'capped > now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD that > needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with > lunchbox systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for > working 50-pin SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more > sense (unless you want to exhibit them as they originally ran). > > alan > > On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > > BUMMER > It may become a static? display..... > > Ed# > > > In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. > Yes, one with the dreaded battery. > > alan > > On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > > we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg > decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed > > > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Dec 1 21:38:21 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 03:38:21 +0000 Subject: Tektronix 6800 Board Bucket and 4051 Working Together Video In-Reply-To: <010e01d48999$93320f00$b9962d00$@bettercomputing.net> References: <010e01d48999$93320f00$b9962d00$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: Thats amazing Brad! Good job. The amazing is that you have working board bucket, that has to be the rarest thing out there in 4051 hardware. I need to follow vcfed and you guys more, you are definitely on top of the hardware. Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brad H via cctalk Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2018 9:16 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Tektronix 6800 Board Bucket and 4051 Working Together Video I'm not sure how many of you who are on this list are on the vcfed.org forum, but just for those who aren't, with the help of Dave and Monty from there, I have recently restored a 4051 I bought a couple years ago to working condition. Last night with their guidance I connected it to a Tektronix development system called the Board Bucket, also a 6800 driven machine that Tek engineers/employees could buy from Tek (I think in parts) that I purchased previously. With the 4051 in terminal mode, we were able to demonstrate that the BASIC in ROM in the Board Bucket can drive graphics on the Tek terminal. This was pretty much clear after I dumped the ROMs and Dave had a close look at them, but it was still very cool to see the two working together nonetheless. I feel very privileged to have both one of the products of Tek's computer development efforts and the development machine used to help create it (and/or others) in my possession. Anyway for those interested, I posted a 4 min video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSkHRzx5Bno Brad From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 00:56:03 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 22:56:03 -0800 Subject: ISO: 68000/68010 CPU board for ZAX ICD-178 (CPU S-813) Message-ID: Hi all -- I picked up a ZAX ICD-178 in-circuit debugger in the hopes of using it to help debug / reverse-engineer a couple of 68k-based machines I have.? This unit can work with 68000, 68010, and 68008-based machines, however a different emulation CPU module is used for the 68008 vs. the 68000/68010.? Unfortunately, mine came with only the 68008 CPU module. Since this is a fairly uncommon device, I figure it's unlikely, but just in case someone's sitting on a pile of parts somewhere, if you have the 68000/68010 Emulation CPU module ("CPU S-813") please drop me a line. Thanks as always, Josh From macro at linux-mips.org Sun Dec 2 05:10:22 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 11:10:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SPARCstation 20 with SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: <10fbfaee-01f4-301a-0868-47eed26c7f03@snowmoose.com> <31a45190-3920-9108-214a-ae9669a3446f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Dec 2018, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > I'm not sure what the 'B' in the middle means (silicon rev?), but the DS12885 > has been around for decades. I use them the JR-IDE project. Yes, the DS12885 is a standard part, still in production (with a trailing + marking RoHS compliance). According to its datasheet the DS12B887 has an NC pin actually present in the position where the DS12885 has the RESET# line, while the remaining NC positions are absent due to the respective pins having been bent up (or "are missing by design", as the datasheet puts it). So either a different core had to be used with the DS12B887 or the datasheet has an error. However RESET# would have to be connected to VCC for normal operation and there is no mention of an internal pull-up on RESET# with the DS12885, so I take it the DS12B887 had to use a different core and a DS12B885 seems like a logical match. The placement of RESET# right in the middle between VBAT and GND makes it highly unlikely an internal discrete connection has been made in the DS12B887 package between RESET# and VCC, as a shortage to the embedded lithium cell from that pin if bent up and soldered to would be virtually unavoidable. Maciej From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sun Dec 2 09:02:23 2018 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2018 16:02:23 +0100 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <1676ce3f191-1ec5-4cff@webjas-vae085.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1676ce3f191-1ec5-4cff@webjas-vae085.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: l?r 2018-12-01 klockan 22:08 -0500 skrev ED SHARPE via cctalk: > Hi Alan - The hard drive is same size cabinet.... with I > guess a SCSSI cable. I will have to look at it further... > wonder if starting it out on a variac would help the > capacitors like I do with the old radio sets here in the museum > ed# > > Is the hard drive inside a lunchbox separate from the CPU's one ? The CPU box do as someone else said have space for a halfheight device. But the PSU is obviously probably in bad shape... Those things (ie the IPC) had a habit of dying already in 1995.... From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 09:05:35 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 15:05:35 +0000 Subject: WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # In-Reply-To: <16767852e00-1ec1-3b45@webjas-vaa251.srv.aolmail.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20181201125343.010c2848@mail.optusnet.com.au>, <16767852e00-1ec1-3b45@webjas-vaa251.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Looking at how things work, there is a new method used to pick locks that works a little to well. It is a thing called a bump key. To make one for this cylinder lock would be tricky. Still, it could be done. The principle is that you bounce the tumbler pins in, while holding light tension. The inertia of the pins pushes the pins in. As they return, the tend to catch were the would normally turn. I've seen one on the web demonstrated. They are quite remarkable as to how easy they work. ( way too easy ) The idea of making one for your lock is to allow the cylinder to only turn part way between pin angles. Once it has rotated that much, you can then measure the pin depth and make the key. You could make one from a blank key and use a rubber washer to improve the action. You'd remove the piece that holds the key in the lock and make a holder block that would allow a partial turn so that it would stop, at the right angle, between locations to make measurements for the new key. It is not the traditional picking method but having seen it in action makes traditional feeling the pins obsolete. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 6:07 PM To: guykd at optusnet.com.au; cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # Yikes and I am complaining about trying to pick the lock on the UNIVAC 422 anyone have a key # for it? That type on that 8S looks tough... Ed# www.smecc.org In a message dated 11/30/2018 6:53:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: And now, back to machining a lock pick for a PDP-8/S front panel cylinder lock. http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm#locks From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 2 09:24:58 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 07:24:58 -0800 Subject: ISO: 68000/68010 CPU board for ZAX ICD-178 (CPU S-813) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have literally dozens of non-Ethernet Applied Microsystems ES-1800 68000 ICEs Are you (or anyone else) interested in any? On 12/1/18 10:56 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > I picked up a ZAX ICD-178 in-circuit debugger in the hopes of using it to help debug / reverse-engineer a couple of > 68k-based machines I have. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 2 10:28:49 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 08:28:49 -0800 Subject: ISO: 68000/68010 CPU board for ZAX ICD-178 (CPU S-813) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c0f66a7-47c7-b640-7703-5d7789dcfcb7@bitsavers.org> On 12/2/18 7:24 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Are you (or anyone else) interested in any? they would be tested for $200 plus shipping with a 68000 pod I'll have to see how many other pods I have, I should also have 010 and 020 From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 2 11:39:07 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 12:39:07 -0500 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16770009aa8-1ec3-6565@webjas-vab078.srv.aolmail.net> Yes? separate.? ? ?- will? have to? see? who? made it? ?may? be? third? party pr? may? be? sun?? ?Ed# In a message dated 12/2/2018 8:02:32 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? l?r 2018-12-01 klockan 22:08 -0500 skrev ED SHARPE via cctalk: > Hi Alan - The hard drive is same size cabinet.... with I > guess a SCSSI cable. I will have to look at it further... > wonder if starting it out on a variac would help the > capacitors like I do with the old radio sets here in the museum > ed# > > Is the hard drive inside a lunchbox separate from the CPU's one ? The CPU box do as someone else said have space for a halfheight device. But the PSU is obviously probably in bad shape... Those things (ie the IPC) had a habit of dying already in 1995.... From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 2 12:13:34 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 13:13:34 -0500 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16770202466-1ec4-c0e9@webjas-vad188.srv.aolmail.net> Thanks? for the? info? to? get it? open!? when? back at the? office? ?shall? ?do that..? ?there? may? be? drives in 2 places -? on board and? the off board? one. Always interesting to? explore? something? ?one? has? only? read? about! ? Along the? ?same? line? of? UNIX? ?stuff? ?we? have a? COBALT? ?1U Pretty? blue? sever and a? COBALT? CUBE.? I? do remember? ?lusting? after? one of these? ?1U? COBALT? servers when they? were? current didn't? have anything in? the? budget? back then? though? for? one.? I? have? been? told? SUN? eventually ended up? owning COBALT. ? As? will all that? ?we? ? have? we? are? looking? for? any? ad slicks? ?press kits? ? posters,? wild artwork? ?for? the? Sun $/40,? ? and the? 2? COBALT? machines.. ? Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC? www.smecc.org ? ? ? ? In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:15:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aperry at snowmoose.com writes: ? Yes. It is next to floppy in the upper half of the chassis. There is a 50-pin (IDC connectors) ribbon cable that goes down to system board at the bottom of the lower half of the chassis. The chassis splits in the vertical middle in a, if looking at the chassis, fairly obvious place. Because of the cables that run from the top to bottom, it effectively hinges at the front of the chassis. There a couple buttons on the side to release and sometimes a security cable bit to remove (phillips screw). On 12/1/18 7:08 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: Hi? Alan - The? hard drive is same? size cabinet....? ? with? I? guess a? SCSSI? ?cable.? I? will have? to? look? at? it? ?further...? ?wonder if starting it? out on? a? variac? ?would? help the capacitors? like? I? do? with the old radio sets? here in the museum? ed#?? In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:04:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aperry at snowmoose.com writes: ? Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery isn't that hard to make. In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power supplies. If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be re'capped now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD that needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with lunchbox systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for working 50-pin SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more sense (unless you want to exhibit them as they originally ran). alan On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: BUMMER It may become a static? display..... ? Ed# ? ? In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. Yes, one with the dreaded battery. alan On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 13:03:37 2018 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2018 14:03:37 -0500 Subject: SPARCstation 20 with SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b03c0ba0dfe64cb1aca6e0c31095ca3621de3f1.camel@gmail.com> The re-work of that Dallas nvram chip is just beautiful. It makes me ashamed of myself. (I just chopped into the epoxy with a pocket knife, soldered two leads, and velcroed the new batteries somewhere inside the machine I installed it in.) I salute you sir. Jeff From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Dec 2 13:44:23 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 11:44:23 -0800 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <16770202466-1ec4-c0e9@webjas-vad188.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16770202466-1ec4-c0e9@webjas-vad188.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: There is only room for drives in the top half of the chassis.? The PSU and an assembly that holds the drives fills the top half. A 3.5" half-height drive fits in one side of the assembly and a 3.5" floppy drive fits in the other. The PSU cables go from the rear to the front of that side of the chassis, below the FDD (when the chassis is closed). I did an exhibit on Sun lunchbox systems, including the IPC (4/40), for PNW VCF earlier this year. I looked for press kits, posters, etc. to use in the exhibit, but could only find text files. I know people who worked at Sun on the development of those early SPARCstations and none of them had any of that kind of material. I had an audio cassette "Introducing the IPC" for Sun sales. I donated it to CHM this year (but I ripped the audio before I sent it to them). alan On 12/2/18 10:13 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Thanks? for the? info? to? get it? open!? when? back at the? office? ?shall? ?do that..? ?there? may? be? drives in 2 places -? on board and? the off board? one. Always interesting to? explore? something? ?one? has? only? read? about! > > > > Along the? ?same? line? of? UNIX? ?stuff? ?we? have a? COBALT? ?1U Pretty? blue? sever and a? COBALT? CUBE.? I? do remember? ?lusting? after? one of these? ?1U? COBALT? servers when they? were? current didn't? have anything in? the? budget? back then? though? for? one.? I? have? been? told? SUN? eventually ended up? owning COBALT. > > As? will all that? ?we? ? have? we? are? looking? for? any? ad slicks? ?press kits? ? posters,? wild artwork? ?for? the? Sun $/40,? ? and the? 2? COBALT? machines.. > > Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC? www.smecc.org > > > > > In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:15:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aperry at snowmoose.com writes: > > > Yes. It is next to floppy in the upper half of the chassis. There is a 50-pin (IDC connectors) ribbon cable that goes down to system board at the bottom of the lower half of the chassis. The chassis splits in the vertical middle in a, if looking at the chassis, fairly obvious place. Because of the cables that run from the top to bottom, it effectively hinges at the front of the chassis. There a couple buttons on the side to release and sometimes a security cable bit to remove (phillips screw). > > On 12/1/18 7:08 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > Hi? Alan - The? hard drive is same? size cabinet....? ? with? I? guess a? SCSSI? ?cable.? I? will have? to? look? at? it? ?further...? ?wonder if starting it? out on? a? variac? ?would? help the capacitors? like? I? do? with the old radio sets? here in the museum? ed# > > > In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:04:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > aperry at snowmoose.com writes: > > Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery isn't that hard to make. > > In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power supplies. If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be re'capped now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD that needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with lunchbox systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for working 50-pin SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more sense (unless you want to exhibit them as they originally ran). > > alan > > On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > BUMMER > It may become a static? display..... > > Ed# > > > In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. > > Yes, one with the dreaded battery. > > alan > > On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: >> we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed >> >> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 15:00:08 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 21:00:08 +0000 Subject: ISO Intertec 5.25" floppy drive jumper settings Message-ID: <2A598513-D2D6-459D-A567-184C74C779F6@gmail.com> Hi folks, In my long ongoing quest to image and otherwise copy the hard sectored floppies with my Exidy Sorcerer I?m trying to find other floppy drives I can use with it since I don?t like relying on just one set of drives. I have a Cumana dual drive set that came with my TRS80 Model1 that I thought might be jumperable to 300rpm, indeed I can see drive activity if I try and boot. Does anyone know where I might find the/a manual for the drives? They?re marked as Intertec 5002040 so I?ve been all over Superbrain docs and PDFs on bitsavers but haven?t found anything so far. Cheers! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 2 15:43:36 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:43:36 -0500 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16770e070d3-1ec2-2fac@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> Alan...? ?would? ?love? a? copy? of? the? audio? for? our? archives? here. Would? like to? see pix? of? your? display too? sounds? neat! ? Any? other? ?files? text? or? otherwise? welcome? also? ?to? this? address? ?or? drop? us a? ?dropbox? link ? The? Sun? workstations? I? never? knew too much? about as? at the time? ?did not? seems? like? old? history? nor? did? we? use any? so playing catchup!? ? Thanks in? advance... ? Ed# ? ? ? In a message dated 12/2/2018 12:44:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? There is only room for drives in the top half of the chassis.? The PSU and an assembly that holds the drives fills the top half. A 3.5" half-height drive fits in one side of the assembly and a 3.5" floppy drive fits in the other. The PSU cables go from the rear to the front of that side of the chassis, below the FDD (when the chassis is closed). I did an exhibit on Sun lunchbox systems, including the IPC (4/40), for PNW VCF earlier this year. I looked for press kits, posters, etc. to use in the exhibit, but could only find text files. I know people who worked at Sun on the development of those early SPARCstations and none of them had any of that kind of material. I had an audio cassette "Introducing the IPC" for Sun sales. I donated it to CHM this year (but I ripped the audio before I sent it to them). alan On 12/2/18 10:13 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Thanks? for the? info? to? get it? open!? when? back at the? office? ?shall? ?do that..? ?there? may? be? drives in 2 places -? on board and? the off board? one. Always interesting to? explore? something? ?one? has? only? read? about! > > > > Along the? ?same? line? of? UNIX? ?stuff? ?we? have a? COBALT? ?1U Pretty? blue? sever and a? COBALT? CUBE.? I? do remember? ?lusting? after? one of these? ?1U? COBALT? servers when they? were? current didn't? have anything in? the? budget? back then? though? for? one.? I? have? been? told? SUN? eventually ended up? owning COBALT. > > As? will all that? ?we? ? have? we? are? looking? for? any? ad slicks? ?press kits? ? posters,? wild artwork? ?for? the? Sun $/40,? ? and the? 2? COBALT? machines.. > > Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC? www.smecc.org > > > > > In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:15:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aperry at snowmoose.com writes: > > > Yes. It is next to floppy in the upper half of the chassis. There is a 50-pin (IDC connectors) ribbon cable that goes down to system board at the bottom of the lower half of the chassis. The chassis splits in the vertical middle in a, if looking at the chassis, fairly obvious place. Because of the cables that run from the top to bottom, it effectively hinges at the front of the chassis. There a couple buttons on the side to release and sometimes a security cable bit to remove (phillips screw). > > On 12/1/18 7:08 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > Hi? Alan - The? hard drive is same? size cabinet....? ? with? I? guess a? SCSSI? ?cable.? I? will have? to? look? at? it? ?further...? ?wonder if starting it? out on? a? variac? ?would? help the capacitors? like? I? do? with the old radio sets? here in the museum? ed# > > > In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:04:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > aperry at snowmoose.com writes: > > Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery isn't that hard to make. > > In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power supplies. If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be re'capped now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD that needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with lunchbox systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for working 50-pin SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more sense (unless you want to exhibit them as they originally ran). > > alan > > On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > BUMMER > It may become a static? display..... > > Ed# > > > In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. > > Yes, one with the dreaded battery. > > alan > > On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: >> we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed >> >> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 17:32:47 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 15:32:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: ISO Intertec 5.25" floppy drive jumper settings In-Reply-To: <2A598513-D2D6-459D-A567-184C74C779F6@gmail.com> References: <2A598513-D2D6-459D-A567-184C74C779F6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > In my long ongoing quest to image and otherwise copy the hard sectored > floppies with my Exidy Sorcerer I?m trying to find other floppy drives > I can use with it since I don?t like relying on just one set of > drives. I have a Cumana dual drive set that came with my TRS80 Model1 > that I thought might be jumperable to 300rpm, indeed I can see drive > activity if I try and boot. If those were being used on a TRS80 Model1, then they are already 300RPM. > Does anyone know where I might find the/a manual for the drives? > They?re marked as Intertec 5002040 so I?ve been all over Superbrain > docs and PDFs on bitsavers but haven?t found anything so far. If they were used on a Superbrain, then they are already 300RPM. But, Be VERY careful with Superbrain documentation and [mis]"information". They started off with an ordinary 200K 40 track MFM SSDD / Single Sided Double Density 48tpi. (Like the PC-DOS 160K/180K) When they went to 400K 40 cylinder MFM DSDD / double sided, double density, still 48 tpi (like the PC-DOS 360K), they chose to call that "QD" / "QUAD DENSITY"!! ?!?? (equating "density" with capacity) WHOA! Everybody else called THAT DSDD "Double Sided Double Density", and used "QD" / "Quad Density" to refer to 80 cylinder Double density 96tpi! So, when you see mention of Superbrain "QUAD DENSITY", they are referring to a drive like the PC 360K! NOT what anybody else called "QUAD DENSITY" Mentions of "80 track" don't help, because that could be referring to 80 tracks made up of 40 tracks per side (40 sylinders), OR be referring to 80 tracks per side. When Superbrain went to 800K 96tpi Double Density (which everybody else was calling "Quad Density", Superbrain called THAT "SUPER Density", which they abbreviated "SD". YES, they really did call their 800K format "SD"! Q [Rhetorical]: What did "SD" mean to anybody else? Superbrain's disk format was 10 sectors per track (numbered 1h through 0Ah), with 512 bytes per sector. The Address marks are pretty "normal", althought 10 sectors per track can sometimes pose difficulties on NEC controllers, but the data field in each sector is inverted. And, if I recall correctly, they used an INCORRECT value in the "Head Number" field on the sectors on the second side, but would accept disks with correct headers. I have heard that they used a Z80 for floppy control, but the disks are consistent with a Western Digital 179x controller. I doubt that they manufactured their own disk drives, but it is possible. Look carefully at the drives for any hints of who actually made them. Are these "full height" (SA400) or "half height"? I had not heard of Cumana. Google says that it was a British company (Guildford) peddling disk drives in their own cases, mostly for BBC and Acorn. Various forum posts describe Shugart 465 (96tpi), and Mitsubishi 4853 (96tpi) One on eBay looks like a Mitsubishi. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 17:57:16 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 15:57:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181201125343.010c2848@mail.optusnet.com.au>, <16767852e00-1ec1-3b45@webjas-vaa251.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: The Chicago Ace (tubular) lock is USUALLY easier to pick (with the right tension wrench), since you have access to all of the pins, without having to reach past a pin to get to another. The commercial tools are just a tube with slots and sliders, with variable friction. Almost trivial to make your own (as I did in High School), although a well machined one will be a joy to use. As such, sometimes just sliding that into the lock (WITH THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF TORQUE) will get each pin to stop when it aligns. Bumping seems more hassle for this. As Dwight mentioned, picking or bumping without a pick tool that stays aligned with the pins (like the commercial ones), opens up the additional possibility of pins then coming back up and entering some other pin's chamber. The commercial tool ALSO leaves the sliders in position, so you can "duplicate" a key from it. OR measure/read out positions to decode. If you add calibrations to the commercial tool, then you can use it as a temporary key for anything for which you already have the code (suc as XX2247!) On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Looking at how things work, there is a new method used to pick locks that works a little to well. It is a thing called a bump key. To make one for this cylinder lock would be tricky. Still, it could be done. > The principle is that you bounce the tumbler pins in, while holding light tension. The inertia of the pins pushes the pins in. As they return, the tend to catch were the would normally turn. > I've seen one on the web demonstrated. They are quite remarkable as to how easy they work. ( way too easy ) > The idea of making one for your lock is to allow the cylinder to only turn part way between pin angles. Once it has rotated that much, you can then measure the pin depth and make the key. > You could make one from a blank key and use a rubber washer to improve the action. You'd remove the piece that holds the key in the lock and make a holder block that would allow a partial turn so that it would stop, at the right angle, between locations to make measurements for the new key. > It is not the traditional picking method but having seen it in action makes traditional feeling the pins obsolete. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 6:07 PM > To: guykd at optusnet.com.au; cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # > > Yikes and I am complaining about trying to pick the lock on the UNIVAC 422 anyone have a key # for it? That type on that 8S looks tough... > > > Ed# www.smecc.org > > > In a message dated 11/30/2018 6:53:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > And now, back to machining a lock pick for a PDP-8/S front panel cylinder lock. > > http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm#locks From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 18:02:02 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 00:02:02 +0000 Subject: ISO Intertec 5.25" floppy drive jumper settings In-Reply-To: References: <2A598513-D2D6-459D-A567-184C74C779F6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Fred, > On 2 Dec 2018, at 23:32, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> In my long ongoing quest to image and otherwise copy the hard sectored floppies with my Exidy Sorcerer I?m trying to find other floppy drives I can use with it since I don?t like relying on just one set of drives. I have a Cumana dual drive set that came with my TRS80 Model1 that I thought might be jumperable to 300rpm, indeed I can see drive activity if I try and boot. > > If those were being used on a TRS80 Model1, then they are already 300RPM. I should?ve known that. > When they went to 400K 40 cylinder MFM DSDD / double sided, double density, still 48 tpi (like the PC-DOS 360K), they chose to call that "QD" / "QUAD DENSITY"!! ?!?? (equating "density" with capacity) > WHOA! Everybody else called THAT DSDD "Double Sided Double Density", and used "QD" / "Quad Density" to refer to 80 cylinder Double density 96tpi! So I?ve been reading :) I?m sure they weren?t doing it deliberately, hahaha. > field on the sectors on the second side, but would accept disks with correct headers. > I have heard that they used a Z80 for floppy control, but the disks are consistent with a Western Digital 179x controller. They were always touted as twin-Z80 machines. I?ve always wanted one because when all I had at school was a Research Machines 380Z (another twin drive CP/M machine) the Superbrain LOOKED like a computer even though as I?ve been reading tonight it was originally designed as a terminal. > I doubt that they manufactured their own disk drives, but it is possible. Look carefully at the drives for any hints of who actually made them. > Are these "full height" (SA400) or "half height?? You?re right. Normally with Cumana stuff I do look for a manufacturer because yes, they were known to me as makers of repackaged drives for the Acorn BBC Micro. In this case the Intertec label is a bit of a red herring and the drives are actually Tandon TM100-1 full height units. I?ve got the manual from a Rat Shack related site. Thanks for making me look again :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 18:22:14 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:22:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: ISO Intertec 5.25" floppy drive jumper settings In-Reply-To: References: <2A598513-D2D6-459D-A567-184C74C779F6@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> When they went to 400K 40 cylinder MFM DSDD / double sided, double >> density, still 48 tpi (like the PC-DOS 360K), they chose to call that >> "QD" / "QUAD DENSITY"!! ?!?? (equating "density" with capacity) WHOA! >> Everybody else called THAT DSDD "Double Sided Double Density", and used >> "QD" / "Quad Density" to refer to 80 cylinder Double density 96tpi! On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > So I???ve been reading :) I???m sure they weren???t doing it deliberately, hahaha. It's hard to say. At NCC, at the Intertec booth, they could not understand WHY anybody would want to transfer files between disk formats, other than to PIRATE their "proprietary software"! They even threatened to sue me if I included it in XenoCopy! So, they were not heavy into interoperability with other brands. That was the first time that I added a format to XenoCopy while in a hotel room. (Televideo was the second!). NCC was great. In addition to those two formats, in exchange for buying him lunch, John Draper told me everything that I needed to know to add UCSD P-System formats - (I did NOT exercise with him.) Intertec did not keep their promise - I could have used the free ink. > You???re right. Normally with Cumana stuff I do look for a manufacturer > because yes, they were known to me as makers of repackaged drives for > the Acorn BBC Micro. In this case the Intertec label is a bit of a red > herring and the drives are actually Tandon TM100-1 full height units. > I???ve got the manual from a Rat Shack related site. > Thanks for making me look again :) One more caveat! Radio Shack repurposed pin 32 (SIDE SELECT) to use as their fourth drive select, and did their drive select with their cable, rather than the jumpers. So did IBM, although they jumpered both drives as second drive, rather than ALL jumpered as RS had done. IBM also used them, as well as the TM100-2 (DS), so there are a LOT of sources for the manuals. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 18:32:54 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:32:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: ISO Intertec 5.25" floppy drive jumper settings In-Reply-To: References: <2A598513-D2D6-459D-A567-184C74C779F6@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> When they went to 400K 40 cylinder MFM DSDD / double sided, double >> density, still 48 tpi (like the PC-DOS 360K), they chose to call that >> "QD" / "QUAD DENSITY"!! ?!?? (equating "density" with capacity) WHOA! >> Everybody else called THAT DSDD "Double Sided Double Density", and used >> "QD" / "Quad Density" to refer to 80 cylinder Double density 96tpi! > So I?ve been reading :) I?m sure they weren?t doing it > deliberately, hahaha. "QUAD" was arguably defensible to some people who equated twice as many tracks (same number of cylinder) or tracks closer together (MANY CP/M machines) as being same as changing "density" But the Intertec choice to call their 96tpi DSDD (800K) as "SD" was just plain hilarious! THAT needs to be periodically retold! Unaware??!? of the many thousands of companies that used SD and SSSD to mean Single Density. Although, to be fair considering their attitudes, THAT did waste a few hours of my time setting up for FM (single density) unnecessarily! Their machines actually seemed decent, and had many very loyal followers. The people that I was dealing with were MARKETING. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 18:38:37 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 00:38:37 +0000 Subject: ISO Intertec 5.25" floppy drive jumper settings In-Reply-To: References: <2A598513-D2D6-459D-A567-184C74C779F6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <708E8488-AE1F-40DC-8284-F33107BFA891@gmail.com> > On 3 Dec 2018, at 00:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> When they went to 400K 40 cylinder MFM DSDD / double sided, double density, still 48 tpi (like the PC-DOS 360K), they chose to call that "QD" / "QUAD DENSITY"!! ?!?? (equating "density" with capacity) WHOA! Everybody else called THAT DSDD "Double Sided Double Density", and used "QD" / "Quad Density" to refer to 80 cylinder Double density 96tpi! > On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> So I?ve been reading :) I?m sure they weren?t doing it deliberately, hahaha. > > It's hard to say. At NCC, at the Intertec booth, they could not understand WHY anybody would want to transfer files between disk formats, other than to PIRATE their "proprietary software"! They even threatened to sue me if I included it in XenoCopy! > So, they were not heavy into interoperability with other brands. Was any manufacturer? I does seem to me that everyone deliberately made their CP/M format different despite using the same or similar chipsets. I was surprised to read in the docs for my Osborne Executive that it COULD read a couple of other formats. > That was the first time that I added a format to XenoCopy while in a hotel room. (Televideo was the second!). NCC was great. In addition to those two formats, in exchange for buying him lunch, John Draper told me everything that I needed to know to add UCSD P-System formats - (I did NOT exercise with him.) Intertec did not keep their promise - I could have used the free ink. What machine were you using for hotel room coding? > One more caveat! Radio Shack repurposed pin 32 (SIDE SELECT) to use as their fourth drive select, and did their drive select with their cable, rather than the jumpers. So did IBM, although they jumpered both drives as second drive, rather than ALL jumpered as RS had done. IBM also used them, as well as the TM100-2 (DS), so there are a LOT of sources for the manuals. This pair are jumpered as I?d expect, DS0 and 1 with a terminator block. The manual says they?ll work with multi-hole floppies so I?ll strip them down later and give them a good clean. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Dec 2 18:49:37 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:49:37 -0800 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <16770e070d3-1ec2-2fac@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16770e070d3-1ec2-2fac@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: I will have to get back with you on the audio. It is on offline backup media and I need to find it. Here is a link to some photos of the exhibit - https://photos.app.goo.gl/7qC8UbEYCeCf9CBo7 The RDI Britelite (laptop) is a SPARCstation IPX system board in a laptop chassis. It was in the Day 1 exhibit, but not the Day 2 exhibit because the power adapter died on the morning of the second day. One of the photos is an opened-up SPARCstation LX, which is very similar on the inside to your IPC. My exhibit next year will be on early 90s SPARC clones. alan On 12/2/18 1:43 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Alan...? ?would? ?love? a? copy? of? the? audio? for? our? archives? here. > > > Would? like to? see pix? of? your? display too? sounds? neat! > > Any? other? ?files? text? or? otherwise? welcome? also? ?to? this? address? ?or? drop? us a? ?dropbox? link > > The? Sun? workstations? I? never? knew too much? about as? at the time? ?did not? seems? like? old? history? nor? did? we? use any? so playing catchup! > > Thanks in? advance... > > Ed# > > > > In a message dated 12/2/2018 12:44:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > There is only room for drives in the top half of the chassis.? The PSU > and an assembly that holds the drives fills the top half. A 3.5" > half-height drive fits in one side of the assembly and a 3.5" floppy > drive fits in the other. The PSU cables go from the rear to the front of > that side of the chassis, below the FDD (when the chassis is closed). > > I did an exhibit on Sun lunchbox systems, including the IPC (4/40), for > PNW VCF earlier this year. I looked for press kits, posters, etc. to use > in the exhibit, but could only find text files. I know people who worked > at Sun on the development of those early SPARCstations and none of them > had any of that kind of material. > > I had an audio cassette "Introducing the IPC" for Sun sales. I donated > it to CHM this year (but I ripped the audio before I sent it to them). > > alan > > On 12/2/18 10:13 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> Thanks? for the? info? to? get it? open!? when? back at the? office? ?shall? ?do that..? ?there? may? be? drives in 2 places -? on board and? the off board? one. Always interesting to? explore? something? ?one? has? only? read? about! >> >> >> >> Along the? ?same? line? of? UNIX? ?stuff? ?we? have a? COBALT? ?1U Pretty? blue? sever and a? COBALT? CUBE.? I? do remember? ?lusting? after? one of these? ?1U? COBALT? servers when they? were? current didn't? have anything in? the? budget? back then? though? for? one.? I? have? been? told? SUN? eventually ended up? owning COBALT. >> >> As? will all that? ?we? ? have? we? are? looking? for? any? ad slicks? ?press kits? ? posters,? wild artwork? ?for? the? Sun $/40,? ? and the? 2? COBALT? machines.. >> >> Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC? www.smecc.org >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:15:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aperry at snowmoose.com writes: >> >> >> Yes. It is next to floppy in the upper half of the chassis. There is a 50-pin (IDC connectors) ribbon cable that goes down to system board at the bottom of the lower half of the chassis. The chassis splits in the vertical middle in a, if looking at the chassis, fairly obvious place. Because of the cables that run from the top to bottom, it effectively hinges at the front of the chassis. There a couple buttons on the side to release and sometimes a security cable bit to remove (phillips screw). >> >> On 12/1/18 7:08 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: >> Hi? Alan - The? hard drive is same? size cabinet....? ? with? I? guess a? SCSSI? ?cable.? I? will have? to? look? at? it? ?further...? ?wonder if starting it? out on? a? variac? ?would? help the capacitors? like? I? do? with the old radio sets? here in the museum? ed# >> >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:04:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> aperry at snowmoose.com writes: >> >> Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery isn't that hard to make. >> >> In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power supplies. If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be re'capped now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD that needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with lunchbox systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for working 50-pin SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more sense (unless you want to exhibit them as they originally ran). >> >> alan >> >> On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: >> BUMMER >> It may become a static? display..... >> >> Ed# >> >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. >> >> Yes, one with the dreaded battery. >> >> alan >> >> On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: >>> we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed >>> >>> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 19:15:20 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:15:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reminiscing (Was: ISO Intertec 5.25" floppy drive jumper settings In-Reply-To: <708E8488-AE1F-40DC-8284-F33107BFA891@gmail.com> References: <2A598513-D2D6-459D-A567-184C74C779F6@gmail.com> <708E8488-AE1F-40DC-8284-F33107BFA891@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> So, they were not heavy into interoperability with other brands. On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Was any manufacturer? I does seem to me that everyone deliberately made > their CP/M format different despite using the same or similar chipsets. > I was surprised to read in the docs for my Osborne Executive that it > COULD read a couple of other formats. I HAVE TO respond to THAT! No way can I let THAT slide! I once cold-called Gary Kildall to ask him to consider standardizing 5.25" disk format. His response was, "THE standard is 8 inch single sided single density". I said, "but what about 5.25 inch?" He repeated, "THE standard is 8 inch single sided single density." During the famous "shooting self in the foot WITH AUTOMATIC WEAPONS" session, Adam promised that their next machine could read and write every disk format in existence! About a week later, they contacted my publisher to discuss licensing XenoCopy! I used to run into Adam occasionally. And then, after his computer company folded, he briefly peddled an external HDD in a odd shaped case (at computer swaps!) When Lotus sued Paperback software, I suggested buying one of the pieces of the defunct Visicorp (CHEAP at the time) as an impenetrable defense (cf. Novell's purchase of DRI). But, it was just barely too late. I miss him. I was PLEASED to see the prevalence (bundling?) of Uniform from MicroSolutions with Kaypro, even though they were my biggest competitor. Howard Fullmer (Morrow Designs) was working on a multi-format system that was attempting automatic format recognition. I don't think that he finished it. I heard that he died (I miss him), but I can't find confirmation, and George Morrow is obviously unavailable. Anybody KNOW? (One of my TRS80s had his "Parasitic Engineering" 8" CP/M modifications (sandwich boards below Z80 and 1771)) > What machine were you using for hotel room coding? At that time, a Compaq. And, I used a Compaq in a gazebo in a park in the rain in Hilo when I added WRITE capability. But, I soon switched to a generic lunchbox. And, for a while Joe Garner (Elcompco) loaned me an XT system in a Halliburton attache case (5" display). His CP/M system had already been available for sale in my Computer Faire booth (right accross the aisle!) when Adam made his spectacular launch of "THE FIRST portable computer") It just ain't the same no more. If John Titor is listening, my offer stands for a one way ride back to mid sixties. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 20:06:25 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 02:06:25 +0000 Subject: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181201125343.010c2848@mail.optusnet.com.au>, <16767852e00-1ec1-3b45@webjas-vaa251.srv.aolmail.net> , Message-ID: Fred is probably right but it would be fun to try a bump key on these. It would be a lot simpler to make. You just take a blank key and cut each pin location deep enough so when fully engaged it would push the pins in about 1/16 inch. Then grind the piece that locks in in until fully turned off. Then one would put some rubber washers on it so that it just lifts off the pins from the washers lifting it. One could most likely tension by hand but like Fred says, one could easily over shoot and then have to pick it again. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 3:57 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # The Chicago Ace (tubular) lock is USUALLY easier to pick (with the right tension wrench), since you have access to all of the pins, without having to reach past a pin to get to another. The commercial tools are just a tube with slots and sliders, with variable friction. Almost trivial to make your own (as I did in High School), although a well machined one will be a joy to use. As such, sometimes just sliding that into the lock (WITH THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF TORQUE) will get each pin to stop when it aligns. Bumping seems more hassle for this. As Dwight mentioned, picking or bumping without a pick tool that stays aligned with the pins (like the commercial ones), opens up the additional possibility of pins then coming back up and entering some other pin's chamber. The commercial tool ALSO leaves the sliders in position, so you can "duplicate" a key from it. OR measure/read out positions to decode. If you add calibrations to the commercial tool, then you can use it as a temporary key for anything for which you already have the code (suc as XX2247!) On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Looking at how things work, there is a new method used to pick locks that works a little to well. It is a thing called a bump key. To make one for this cylinder lock would be tricky. Still, it could be done. > The principle is that you bounce the tumbler pins in, while holding light tension. The inertia of the pins pushes the pins in. As they return, the tend to catch were the would normally turn. > I've seen one on the web demonstrated. They are quite remarkable as to how easy they work. ( way too easy ) > The idea of making one for your lock is to allow the cylinder to only turn part way between pin angles. Once it has rotated that much, you can then measure the pin depth and make the key. > You could make one from a blank key and use a rubber washer to improve the action. You'd remove the piece that holds the key in the lock and make a holder block that would allow a partial turn so that it would stop, at the right angle, between locations to make measurements for the new key. > It is not the traditional picking method but having seen it in action makes traditional feeling the pins obsolete. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 6:07 PM > To: guykd at optusnet.com.au; cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # > > Yikes and I am complaining about trying to pick the lock on the UNIVAC 422 anyone have a key # for it? That type on that 8S looks tough... > > > Ed# www.smecc.org > > > In a message dated 11/30/2018 6:53:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > And now, back to machining a lock pick for a PDP-8/S front panel cylinder lock. > > http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm#locks From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 20:19:41 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 18:19:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181201125343.010c2848@mail.optusnet.com.au>, <16767852e00-1ec1-3b45@webjas-vaa251.srv.aolmail.net> , Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Fred is probably right but it would be fun to try a bump key on these. > It would be a lot simpler to make. You just take a blank key and cut > each pin location deep enough so when fully engaged it would push the > pins in about 1/16 inch. Then grind the piece that locks in in until > fully turned off. Then one would put some rubber washers on it so that > it just lifts off the pins from the washers lifting it. > One could most likely tension by hand but like Fred says, one could > easily over shoot and then have to pick it again. How about making it with two concentric tubes; one operating, and an outer partial one that locks to the outer notch, with a slider between the tubes, so that you are applying tension to the inner tube, but the outer one limits you to not making it as far as the next pin position. But, for use as an unlocking tool, you do need to turn more than one pin position, often as much as 90 degrees. So, though it would pick the lock, you WOULD need to repeat. Please let us know how it goes! I'm a bit overdue on machining a better version of the conventional one - calibrated pin positions, better adjustment of resistance including solid locking of them, including being able to work with and without detents at the standard cut depths. Lack of necessity is the mother of procrastination! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 20:33:09 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 02:33:09 +0000 Subject: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181201125343.010c2848@mail.optusnet.com.au>, <16767852e00-1ec1-3b45@webjas-vaa251.srv.aolmail.net> , , Message-ID: The idea is not to pick it open but to make a key. Once you've rotated half way between two pins, you can remove the tool and measure the heights of the pins. I like the idea of having a limiter sleeve on the outside to ride in the slot. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 6:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Fred is probably right but it would be fun to try a bump key on these. > It would be a lot simpler to make. You just take a blank key and cut > each pin location deep enough so when fully engaged it would push the > pins in about 1/16 inch. Then grind the piece that locks in in until > fully turned off. Then one would put some rubber washers on it so that > it just lifts off the pins from the washers lifting it. > One could most likely tension by hand but like Fred says, one could > easily over shoot and then have to pick it again. How about making it with two concentric tubes; one operating, and an outer partial one that locks to the outer notch, with a slider between the tubes, so that you are applying tension to the inner tube, but the outer one limits you to not making it as far as the next pin position. But, for use as an unlocking tool, you do need to turn more than one pin position, often as much as 90 degrees. So, though it would pick the lock, you WOULD need to repeat. Please let us know how it goes! I'm a bit overdue on machining a better version of the conventional one - calibrated pin positions, better adjustment of resistance including solid locking of them, including being able to work with and without detents at the standard cut depths. Lack of necessity is the mother of procrastination! From ethan at 757.org Sun Dec 2 20:41:46 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 21:41:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181201125343.010c2848@mail.optusnet.com.au>, <16767852e00-1ec1-3b45@webjas-vaa251.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: > The commercial tools are just a tube with slots and sliders, with variable > friction. Almost trivial to make your own (as I did in High School), > although a well machined one will be a joy to use. > As such, sometimes just sliding that into the lock (WITH THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF > TORQUE) will get each pin to stop when it aligns. I had one of those tools and it ran about $70. You had to buy a separate one for each size and pin count. Could add up. It was all pretty tight size wise, machining it would be possible if you precision tools but I don't think you could make one easily with a dremel grinding wheel or anything. I was trying to talk a friend into starting a website where you could order tubular keys cut by robot by number but he didn't seem interested. *shrug* -- : Ethan O'Toole From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 20:42:38 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 02:42:38 +0000 Subject: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181201125343.010c2848@mail.optusnet.com.au>, <16767852e00-1ec1-3b45@webjas-vaa251.srv.aolmail.net> , , , Message-ID: Having the sleeve to keep it from over rotating makes more sense when it has that dud pin. You don't want to bump that pin so it would have more relief. If you over rotated, you'd need another key with the dud pin in the new location. That would be a pain for doing each position with a new key. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 6:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # The idea is not to pick it open but to make a key. Once you've rotated half way between two pins, you can remove the tool and measure the heights of the pins. I like the idea of having a limiter sleeve on the outside to ride in the slot. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 6:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Fred is probably right but it would be fun to try a bump key on these. > It would be a lot simpler to make. You just take a blank key and cut > each pin location deep enough so when fully engaged it would push the > pins in about 1/16 inch. Then grind the piece that locks in in until > fully turned off. Then one would put some rubber washers on it so that > it just lifts off the pins from the washers lifting it. > One could most likely tension by hand but like Fred says, one could > easily over shoot and then have to pick it again. How about making it with two concentric tubes; one operating, and an outer partial one that locks to the outer notch, with a slider between the tubes, so that you are applying tension to the inner tube, but the outer one limits you to not making it as far as the next pin position. But, for use as an unlocking tool, you do need to turn more than one pin position, often as much as 90 degrees. So, though it would pick the lock, you WOULD need to repeat. Please let us know how it goes! I'm a bit overdue on machining a better version of the conventional one - calibrated pin positions, better adjustment of resistance including solid locking of them, including being able to work with and without detents at the standard cut depths. Lack of necessity is the mother of procrastination! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 21:06:06 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 19:06:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181201125343.010c2848@mail.optusnet.com.au>, <16767852e00-1ec1-3b45@webjas-vaa251.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: >> The commercial tools are just a tube with slots and sliders, with variable >> friction. Almost trivial to make your own (as I did in High School), >> although a well machined one will be a joy to use. >> As such, sometimes just sliding that into the lock (WITH THE RIGHT AMOUNT >> OF TORQUE) will get each pin to stop when it aligns. On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, ethan at 757.org wrote: > I had one of those tools and it ran about $70. You had to buy a separate one > for each size and pin count. Could add up. It was all pretty tight size wise, > machining it would be possible if you precision tools but I don't think you > could make one easily with a dremel grinding wheel or anything. Having a complete set for ALL tubular locks, not just Chicago Ace, would require a lot. Not so for the COMMON ones. Other outside diameters are quite rare. 99+%? are 7 pin with 7.0, 7.3, 7.5, or 7.8mm center hole, and with the Chicago Ace standard depths. Using a 7.5mm center hole tool on a 7.3 lock requires a little more skill, or figuring out a way to shim the center hole. A set of 3: 7.0, 7.5, 7.8 on eBay, . . . in the "race to the bottom", you can find the set of 3 for $20! MORE, if you want quality. > I was trying to talk a friend into starting a website where you could order > tubular keys cut by robot by number but he didn't seem interested. *shrug* There already are mail-order code-cutting locksmiths Do they get enough volume to call for automating it more than a worker confirming the center hole size and setting the 7 depths? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 21:15:48 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 19:15:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181201125343.010c2848@mail.optusnet.com.au>, <16767852e00-1ec1-3b45@webjas-vaa251.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, ethan at 757.org wrote: > I had one of those tools and it ran about $70. You had to buy a separate one > for each size and pin count. Could add up. It was all pretty tight size wise, > machining it would be possible if you precision tools but I don't think you > could make one easily with a dremel grinding wheel or anything. As an analogy, . . . if you had a system that could image 8", 5.25", 3.5" diskettes, hard and soft-sector, there would still be a FEW with further complications (such as 3.0", 3.25", 100tpi, or edge indexed 8"), but you would be able to do MOST of what you would want to do. In fairness, maybe in the analogy, we would be stuck with only being able to do soft-sector, thus admitting to existence of more numerous variants that would need to be acknowledged. Such a system would tend to be adequate for ALMOST everything. From g-wright at att.net Sun Dec 2 22:36:01 2018 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 04:36:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Data General Eclipse Info needed References: <1130526264.672274.1543811761269.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1130526264.672274.1543811761269@mail.yahoo.com> I'm trying to id this system I just rescued last month.? It is an Eclipse of some type. Chip date codes are 1976-1977? The front panel is white with blue paddle switches.The rear panel ID plate says? it's a 8461, SN 4802-142-157. it has Options? 4192, 4010, 4042.? it's a 16 slot back plane and was part of a EMI? Cat scan system. There are 16 boards in this, 9 are DG and the rest my are EMI scanner boards. Not sure what sales model it is?? ie? C330 or C130 or ??? The front panel is trashed, so what are the differences? between the front panels fromother models. Are there any manuals for this out there ?? The back plane has 2 damaged chips.? one has a? 74S133 which i understand the other has 20a.?if I read it right.? looks to be a hex inverter of some type ?? Any help would be appreciated Thanks, Jerry From cpl160 at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 19:36:08 2018 From: cpl160 at gmail.com (cpl160) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 20:36:08 -0500 Subject: selling rare Intel vintage ceramic gold chips C 4004, 4002, 4003, 8008 collectible Message-ID: Selling these on ebay for only $795, low of range $800-$1600 per the vintage intel cpu guide [1], more info in listing, see https://www.ebay.com/itm/223264027242. [1] http://www.cpushack.com/2018/06/10/t...-microchips-2/ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 3 07:09:03 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 14:09:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack Message-ID: Hi, how does one open a RL02 disk pack? A couple of packs need cleaning but I can't figure out how to open them... Christian From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 06:02:18 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 07:02:18 -0500 Subject: Operation Codes Message-ID: <0bf201d48b00$0a6c5640$1f4502c0$@gmail.com> https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/dunlap.3/humor/instruction.set.html ERS Erase Read-only Storage FPT Fire Photon Torpedoes GCAR Get Correct Answer Regardless XIO Execute Invalid Op code Among others! ----- From db at db.net Mon Dec 3 07:20:56 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 08:20:56 -0500 Subject: Operation Codes In-Reply-To: <0bf201d48b00$0a6c5640$1f4502c0$@gmail.com> References: <0bf201d48b00$0a6c5640$1f4502c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20181203132056.GA66478@night.db.net> On Mon, Dec 03, 2018 at 07:02:18AM -0500, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/dunlap.3/humor/instruction.set.html > HCF is listed there but the original instruction on the 6800 was thought to be included by the designers for hardware testing. See: http://www.liquisearch.com/halt_and_catch_fire/in_modern_cpus/motorola_6800 - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Dec 3 11:40:56 2018 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 09:40:56 -0800 Subject: Data General Eclipse Info needed In-Reply-To: <1130526264.672274.1543811761269@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1130526264.672274.1543811761269.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1130526264.672274.1543811761269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6e03c7c4-4c15-be14-b6a2-203ad17da2a5@mainecoon.com> On 12/2/18 8:36 PM, Jerry Wright via cctalk wrote: > I'm trying to id this system I just rescued last month.? It is an Eclipse of some type. [snip] > Not sure what sales model it is?? ie? C330 or C130 or ??? Given that it was embedded in a CAT scanner it's likely a S series, not a C series (scientific vs. commercial, the latter having the commercial instruction set extensions to better support COBOL). Typically it would be a S/130, but the 16 slot chassis might make it a S/230. The legend on the CPU1 board (the bottom-most in the chassis) may give you a hint; CPU2 is the same for both the S/130 and S/230, so it's of no use it trying to sort this out. The options listed are for I/O controllers. Off the top of my head, 4010 is EIA teletype; 4042 is an oddball, it's the data channel logic sub-option for the 4040 general purpose interface. 4192 doesn't immediately ring a bell; I'll have to dig that up when I have a moment. > The front panel is trashed, so what are the differences? between the front panels fromother models. > Are there any manuals for this out there ?? They're not terribly interchangeable across models. Does the trashed panel have LEDs or incandescent bulbs? IIRC the S/130 was the only model that used LEDs from the factory. > The back plane has 2 damaged chips.? one has a? 74S133 which i understand the other has 20a.?if I read it right.? looks to be a hex inverter of some type ?? Does it have a DG logo on it? If so, BitSavers may have the component guide (and if not, I have a copy around here somewhere). Good luck! Cheers, Chris -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 15:38:58 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 13:38:58 -0800 Subject: ISO: 68000/68010 CPU board for ZAX ICD-178 (CPU S-813) In-Reply-To: <1c0f66a7-47c7-b640-7703-5d7789dcfcb7@bitsavers.org> References: <1c0f66a7-47c7-b640-7703-5d7789dcfcb7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 4:48 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/2/18 7:24 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > Are you (or anyone else) interested in any? > > they would be tested for $200 plus shipping with a 68000 pod > > I'll have to see how many other pods I have, I should also have 010 and 020 > If you're able to find 010 pods, then I'm in. Probably don't need the 020, but I suppose it might prove useful someday... Thanks! Josh From carlojpisani at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 15:50:07 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 22:50:07 +0100 Subject: ISO: 68000/68010 CPU board for ZAX ICD-178 (CPU S-813) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: where are you located? any pic of this? which software does support this ICE can you find a POD for the 68EC020? let me know Il giorno dom 2 dic 2018 alle ore 16:24 Al Kossow via cctalk ha scritto: > > I have literally dozens of non-Ethernet Applied Microsystems ES-1800 68000 ICEs > > Are you (or anyone else) interested in any? > > > On 12/1/18 10:56 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all -- > > > > I picked up a ZAX ICD-178 in-circuit debugger in the hopes of using it to help debug / reverse-engineer a couple of > > 68k-based machines I have. > > > From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 3 21:33:46 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 22:33:46 -0500 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16777476311-1ec1-1a55@webjas-vad249.srv.aolmail.net> Very Nice collection!? ? Yes? have to love that? laptop. Did not know? SUN made one. or? I? guess a third? party? put the? Sun? goodies in a case of their? design?? either way? ?NEAT! ? Seeing? ?a? nice? run? of? systems like this in wonderful condition? is? great! ? ? Ed# ? In a message dated 12/2/2018 5:49:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? I will have to get back with you on the audio. It is on offline backup media and I need to find it. Here is a link to some photos of the exhibit - https://photos.app.goo.gl/7qC8UbEYCeCf9CBo7 The RDI Britelite (laptop) is a SPARCstation IPX system board in a laptop chassis. It was in the Day 1 exhibit, but not the Day 2 exhibit because the power adapter died on the morning of the second day. One of the photos is an opened-up SPARCstation LX, which is very similar on the inside to your IPC. My exhibit next year will be on early 90s SPARC clones. alan On 12/2/18 1:43 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Alan...? ?would? ?love? a? copy? of? the? audio? for? our? archives? here. > > > Would? like to? see pix? of? your? display too? sounds? neat! > > Any? other? ?files? text? or? otherwise? welcome? also? ?to? this? address? ?or? drop? us a? ?dropbox? link > > The? Sun? workstations? I? never? knew too much? about as? at the time? ?did not? seems? like? old? history? nor? did? we? use any? so playing catchup! > > Thanks in? advance... > > Ed# > > > > In a message dated 12/2/2018 12:44:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > There is only room for drives in the top half of the chassis.? The PSU > and an assembly that holds the drives fills the top half. A 3.5" > half-height drive fits in one side of the assembly and a 3.5" floppy > drive fits in the other. The PSU cables go from the rear to the front of > that side of the chassis, below the FDD (when the chassis is closed). > > I did an exhibit on Sun lunchbox systems, including the IPC (4/40), for > PNW VCF earlier this year. I looked for press kits, posters, etc. to use > in the exhibit, but could only find text files. I know people who worked > at Sun on the development of those early SPARCstations and none of them > had any of that kind of material. > > I had an audio cassette "Introducing the IPC" for Sun sales. I donated > it to CHM this year (but I ripped the audio before I sent it to them). > > alan > > On 12/2/18 10:13 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> Thanks? for the? info? to? get it? open!? when? back at the? office? ?shall? ?do that..? ?there? may? be? drives in 2 places -? on board and? the off board? one. Always interesting to? explore? something? ?one? has? only? read? about! >> >> >> >> Along the? ?same? line? of? UNIX? ?stuff? ?we? have a? COBALT? ?1U Pretty? blue? sever and a? COBALT? CUBE.? I? do remember? ?lusting? after? one of these? ?1U? COBALT? servers when they? were? current didn't? have anything in? the? budget? back then? though? for? one.? I? have? been? told? SUN? eventually ended up? owning COBALT. >> >> As? will all that? ?we? ? have? we? are? looking? for? any? ad slicks? ?press kits? ? posters,? wild artwork? ?for? the? Sun $/40,? ? and the? 2? COBALT? machines.. >> >> Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC? www.smecc.org >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:15:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aperry at snowmoose.com writes: >> >> >> Yes. It is next to floppy in the upper half of the chassis. There is a 50-pin (IDC connectors) ribbon cable that goes down to system board at the bottom of the lower half of the chassis. The chassis splits in the vertical middle in a, if looking at the chassis, fairly obvious place. Because of the cables that run from the top to bottom, it effectively hinges at the front of the chassis. There a couple buttons on the side to release and sometimes a security cable bit to remove (phillips screw). >> >> On 12/1/18 7:08 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: >> Hi? Alan - The? hard drive is same? size cabinet....? ? with? I? guess a? SCSSI? ?cable.? I? will have? to? look? at? it? ?further...? ?wonder if starting it? out on? a? variac? ?would? help the capacitors? like? I? do? with the old radio sets? here in the museum? ed# >> >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:04:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> aperry at snowmoose.com writes: >> >> Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery isn't that hard to make. >> >> In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power supplies. If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be re'capped now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD that needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with lunchbox systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for working 50-pin SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more sense (unless you want to exhibit them as they originally ran). >> >> alan >> >> On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: >> BUMMER >> It may become a static? display..... >> >> Ed# >> >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. >> >> Yes, one with the dreaded battery. >> >> alan >> >> On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: >>> we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed >>> >>> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Dec 3 22:45:50 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 20:45:50 -0800 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <16777476311-1ec1-1a55@webjas-vad249.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16777476311-1ec1-1a55@webjas-vad249.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <0f54c5b4-8c8c-09af-3928-a4bfd302a740@snowmoose.com> A company called RDI made the Britelite and Powerlite laptops. They eventually merged with Tadpole, which made its own SPARC laptops (SPARCbooks). As someone else mentioned, there were different Britelite models based on the various Sun lunchbox system boards. When I had my Britelite IPX on display on VCF, someone told me that they recognized the case as something used in another laptop. Sun never made their own laptop, but they made a portable called the SPARCstation Voyager. On 12/3/18 7:33 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > Very Nice collection! Yes? have to love that? laptop. Did not know? > SUN made one. or? I? guess a third? party? put the? Sun? goodies in a > case of their? design?? either way? ?NEAT! > > > Seeing? ?a? nice? run of? systems like this in wonderful condition? > is? great! > > > Ed# > > In a message dated 12/2/2018 5:49:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > I will have to get back with you on the audio. It is on offline backup > media and I need to find it. > > Here is a link to some photos of the exhibit - > https://photos.app.goo.gl/7qC8UbEYCeCf9CBo7 > > The RDI Britelite (laptop) is a SPARCstation IPX system board in a > laptop chassis. It was in the Day 1 exhibit, but not the Day 2 exhibit > because the power adapter died on the morning of the second day. > > One of the photos is an opened-up SPARCstation LX, which is very similar > on the inside to your IPC. > > My exhibit next year will be on early 90s SPARC clones. > > alan > > On 12/2/18 1:43 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Alan...? ?would? ?love? a? copy? of? the? audio? for? our archives? > here. > > > > > > Would? like to? see pix? of? your? display too? sounds neat! > > > > Any? other? ?files? text? or? otherwise? welcome? also ?to? this? > address? ?or? drop? us a? ?dropbox? link > > > > The? Sun? workstations? I? never? knew too much? about as at the > time? ?did not? seems? like? old? history? nor? did? we use any? so > playing catchup! > > > > Thanks in? advance... > > > > Ed# > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/2/2018 12:44:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > > > > > There is only room for drives in the top half of the chassis.? The PSU > > and an assembly that holds the drives fills the top half. A 3.5" > > half-height drive fits in one side of the assembly and a 3.5" floppy > > drive fits in the other. The PSU cables go from the rear to the front of > > that side of the chassis, below the FDD (when the chassis is closed). > > > > I did an exhibit on Sun lunchbox systems, including the IPC (4/40), for > > PNW VCF earlier this year. I looked for press kits, posters, etc. to use > > in the exhibit, but could only find text files. I know people who worked > > at Sun on the development of those early SPARCstations and none of them > > had any of that kind of material. > > > > I had an audio cassette "Introducing the IPC" for Sun sales. I donated > > it to CHM this year (but I ripped the audio before I sent it to them). > > > > alan > > > > On 12/2/18 10:13 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> Thanks? for the? info? to? get it? open!? when? back at the? > office? ?shall? ?do that..? ?there? may? be? drives in 2 places -? on > board and? the off board? one. Always interesting to? explore? > something? ?one? has? only? read? about! > >> > >> > >> > >> Along the? ?same? line? of? UNIX? ?stuff? ?we? have a COBALT? ?1U > Pretty? blue? sever and a? COBALT? CUBE.? I? do remember? ?lusting? > after? one of these? ?1U? COBALT? servers when they? were? current > didn't? have anything in? the? budget back then? though? for? one.? I? > have? been? told? SUN eventually ended up? owning COBALT. > >> > >> As? will all that? ?we? ? have? we? are? looking? for any? ad > slicks? ?press kits? ? posters,? wild artwork? ?for the? Sun $/40,? ? > and the? 2? COBALT? machines.. > >> > >> Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC www.smecc.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:15:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > aperry at snowmoose.com writes: > >> > >> > >> Yes. It is next to floppy in the upper half of the chassis. There > is a 50-pin (IDC connectors) ribbon cable that goes down to system > board at the bottom of the lower half of the chassis. The chassis > splits in the vertical middle in a, if looking at the chassis, fairly > obvious place. Because of the cables that run from the top to bottom, > it effectively hinges at the front of the chassis. There a couple > buttons on the side to release and sometimes a security cable bit to > remove (phillips screw). > >> > >> On 12/1/18 7:08 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > >> Hi? Alan - The? hard drive is same? size cabinet.... with? I? guess > a? SCSSI? ?cable.? I? will have? to? look? at it? ?further...? ?wonder > if starting it? out on? a? variac ?would? help the capacitors? like? > I? do? with the old radio sets? here in the museum? ed# > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:04:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > >> aperry at snowmoose.com writes: > >> > >> Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new > from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery > isn't that hard to make. > >> > >> In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power > supplies. If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be > re'capped now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD > that needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with > lunchbox systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for > working 50-pin SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more > sense (unless you want to exhibit them as they originally ran). > >> > >> alan > >> > >> On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > >> BUMMER > >> It may become a static? display..... > >> > >> Ed# > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > >> > >> A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. > >> > >> Yes, one with the dreaded battery. > >> > >> alan > >> > >> On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > >>> we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg > decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed > >>> > >>> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 14:04:31 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 12:04:31 -0800 Subject: Operation Codes In-Reply-To: <0bf201d48b00$0a6c5640$1f4502c0$@gmail.com> References: <0bf201d48b00$0a6c5640$1f4502c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 4:02 AM Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/dunlap.3/humor/instruction.set.html > > > Among others! > > > SHON Simulate HONeywell CPU [permanent NO-OP] I am guessing that this is a reference to the Honeywell 6000/DPS8 NOP instruction which (curiously) can alter memory, page fault, tally runout fault (IIRC) and loop infinitely (actually till the 16 millisecond instruction timer causes a timeout fault). -- Charles -- X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From trtech at thetrtech.com Mon Dec 3 14:34:56 2018 From: trtech at thetrtech.com (trtech thetrtech.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 20:34:56 +0000 Subject: N8vem and z80sbc Message-ID: Looking for software especially rom code for both of these SBC boards. From jtsdadinaz at hotmail.com Mon Dec 3 14:46:09 2018 From: jtsdadinaz at hotmail.com (Joe Smith) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 20:46:09 +0000 Subject: p112 Message-ID: Are there any boards available or rom monitor updates? From dstalk at execulink.com Mon Dec 3 16:01:00 2018 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 17:01:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Operation Codes In-Reply-To: <0bf201d48b00$0a6c5640$1f4502c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20181203220101.02CA9BEE9CE@cel2.x> In the early 1970s I remember seeing similer things for the PDP-10 and PDP-15. On Mon Dec 3 07:02:18 2018 cctech at classiccmp.org (Paul Birkel via cctech) wrote: > > https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/dunlap.3/humor/instruction.set.html > > > > ERS Erase Read-only Storage > > FPT Fire Photon Torpedoes > > GCAR Get Correct Answer Regardless > > XIO Execute Invalid Op code > > > > Among others! > > > > ----- > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 17:11:02 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 18:11:02 -0500 Subject: N8vem and z80sbc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ea4729e-0afe-cc88-aac0-24079e7d5bff@gmail.com> On 12/03/2018 03:34 PM, trtech thetrtech.com via cctech wrote: > Looking for software especially rom code for both of these SBC boards. Does google or other search engine work where you are... First hit was: ? http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/the-n8vem-sbc Allison From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 19:00:12 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 20:00:12 -0500 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:49:37 -0800 > From: Alan Perry > Subject: Re: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with > battery? > > The RDI Britelite (laptop) is a SPARCstation IPX system board in a > laptop chassis. > I have IPC, IPX, and LX versions of the RDI Britelite. -- Michael Thompson From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Dec 3 19:07:18 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 17:07:18 -0800 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38908703-5f77-afce-f00b-76316be68acd@snowmoose.com> On 12/3/18 5:00 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: >> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:49:37 -0800 >> From: Alan Perry >> Subject: Re: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with >> battery? >> >> The RDI Britelite (laptop) is a SPARCstation IPX system board in a >> laptop chassis. >> > I have IPC, IPX, and LX versions of the RDI Britelite. I was referring to the one in the photos, which is a Britelite IPX, explaining why it is in an exhibit of Sun lunchbox systems. From dave at 661.org Tue Dec 4 03:26:14 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 09:26:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: P112 runs RSX-11 Message-ID: I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge, Gitlab, et al. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave at 661.org Tue Dec 4 03:22:39 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 09:22:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: p112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, Joe Smith via cctech wrote: > Are there any boards available or rom monitor updates? No more boards are available. This is primarily due to difficulty in getting sufficient quantities of brand-new super-IO chips. The fabber I used has problems with using pulls because the legs are off just enough to make the pick-and-place robots throw fits. I'm pondering doing a new run of bare boards and either doing the SMT myself or leaving that for buyers. In any case, I probably won't be offering complete kits. Besides Joe, who else would be interested in acquiring one or more P112 boards? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Dec 4 05:10:05 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 12:10:05 +0100 Subject: p112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20181204111005.GA87580@beast.freibergnet.de> David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, Joe Smith via cctech wrote: > > Are there any boards available or rom monitor updates? > > No more boards are available. This is primarily due to difficulty in > getting sufficient quantities of brand-new super-IO chips. The fabber I > used has problems with using pulls because the legs are off just enough to > make the pick-and-place robots throw fits. I'm pondering doing a new run > of bare boards and either doing the SMT myself or leaving that for buyers. > In any case, I probably won't be offering complete kits. > > Besides Joe, who else would be interested in acquiring one or more P112 > boards? > > > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? I would take one or two David, depending on the price. I live in Germany. Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From carlojpisani at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 07:43:24 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 14:43:24 +0100 Subject: Tektronix Xterm xp217 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi I have one Xterm xp217 for sale, including it's PSU and plastic (I can also provide the firmware) From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Dec 4 08:01:28 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 14:01:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Nov 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Well, ATA drives at that time should have already had the capability to > > remap bad blocks or whole tracks transparently in the firmware, although > > Not even IDE. > Seagate ST4096 (ST506/412 MFM) 80MB formatted, which was still considered > good size by those of us who weren't wealthy. Sure! You did need a bad block list for such a drive though. > > Of course the ability to remap bad storage areas transparently is not an > > excuse for the OS not to handle them gracefully, it was not that time yet > > back then when a hard drive with a bad block or a dozen was considered > > broken like it usually is nowadays. > > Yes, they still came with list of known bad blocks. Usually taped to the > drive. THIS one wasn't on the manufacturer's list, and neither SpeedStor nor > SpinRite could find it! > There were other ways to lock out a block besides filling it with a garbage > file, but that was easiest. IIRC for MS-DOS the canonical way was to mark the containing cluster as bad using a special code in the FAT. Both `format' and `chkdsk' were able to do that, as were some third-party tools. That ensured that disk maintenance tools, such as `defrag', didn't reuse the cluster for something else as it could happen with a real file assignment of such a cluster. > And, I did try to tell the Microsoft people that the OS "should recover > gracefully from hardware errors". In those words. I found switching to Linux a reasonable solution to this kind of customer service attitude. There you can fix an issue yourself or if you don't feel like, then you can hire someone to do it for you (or often just ask kindly, as engineers usually feel responsible for code they have committed, including any bugs). :) > > Did 3.1 support running in the real mode though (as opposed to switching > > to the real mode for DOS tasks only)? I honestly do not remember anymore, > > and ISTR it was removed at one point. I am sure 3.0 did. > > I believe that it did. I don't remember WHAT the program didn't like about > 3.1, or if there were a real reason, not just an arbitrary limit. > I don't think that the Cordata's refusal to run on 286 was based on a real > reason. > > But, the Win 3.1 installation program(s) balked at anything without A20 and a > tiny bit of RAM above 100000h I didn't have a problem with having a few > dedicated machines (an XT with Cordata interface, an AT with Eiconscript card > for postscript and HP PCL, an AT Win 3.0 for the font editor, a machine for > disk duplication (no-notch disks), order entry, accounting, and lots of > machines with lots of different floppy drive types.) I also tested every > release of my programs on many variants of the platform (after I discovered > the hard way that 286 had a longer pre-fetch buffer than 8088!) Hmm, interesting. I never tried any version of MS Windows on a PC/XT class machine and the least equipped 80286-based system I've used had at least 1MiB of RAM and a chipset clever enough to remap a part of it above 1MiB. And then that was made available via HIMEM.SYS. What might be unknown to some is that apart from toggling the A20 mask gate HIMEM.SYS also switched on the so-called "unreal mode" on processors that supported it. These were at least the 80486 and possibly the 80386 as well (but my memory has faded about it at this point), and certainly not the 80286 as it didn't support segment sizes beyond 64kiB. This mode gave access to the whole 4GiB 32-bit address space to real mode programs, by setting data segment limits (sizes) to 4GiB. This was possible by programming segment descriptors in the protected mode and then switching back to the real mode without resetting the limits to the usual 64kiB value beforehand. This worked because unlike in the protected mode segment register writes made in the real mode only updated the segment base and not the limit stored in the corresponding descriptor. IIRC it was not possible for the code segment to use a 4GiB limit in the real mode as it would malfunction (i.e. it would not work as per real mode expectations), so it was left at 64kiB. According to Intel documentation software was required to reset segment sizes to 64kiB before switching back to the real mode, so this was not an officially supported mode of operation. MS Windows may or may not have made use of this feature in its real mode of operation; I am not sure, although I do believe HIMEM.SYS itself did use it (or otherwise why would it set it in the first place?). I discovered it by accident in early 1990s while experimenting with some assembly programming (possibly by trying to read from beyond the end of a segment by using an address size override prefix, a word or a doubleword data quantity and an offset of 0xffff and not seeing a trap or suchlike) and could not explain where this phenomenon came from as it contradicted the x86 processor manual I had. I only learnt later on about this unreal mode and that HIMEM.SYS used to activate it. I don't know if the unreal mode has been retained in the x86 architecture to this day; as I noted above it was not officially supported. But then some originally undocumented x86 features, such as the second byte of AAD and AAM instructions actually being an immediate argument that could have a value different from 10, have become standardised at one point. Maciej From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 08:28:47 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 09:28:47 -0500 Subject: P112 runs RSX-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70d0e9c6-d3cf-bd9a-a4f6-1bb16f1c0b10@gmail.com> On 12/04/2018 04:26 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw > > If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my > hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge, > Gitlab, et al. > > I did find this here: https://en.everybodywiki.com/RSX-180 Allison From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 08:44:58 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 14:44:58 +0000 Subject: P112 runs RSX-11 In-Reply-To: <70d0e9c6-d3cf-bd9a-a4f6-1bb16f1c0b10@gmail.com> References: <70d0e9c6-d3cf-bd9a-a4f6-1bb16f1c0b10@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/4/18 9:28 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 12/04/2018 04:26 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw >> >> If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my >> hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge, >> Gitlab, et al. >> >> > I did find this here: https://en.everybodywiki.com/RSX-180 > That's all I could find, too.? If anyone knows where the source might be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. I have two P112's.? :-) bill From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 08:50:17 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 09:50:17 -0500 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: <946b46d9-b226-4c3f-a962-d6035e01bd92@gmail.com> References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> <8c3a4e45-d22a-9b5d-c5f5-fa9c99342c66@gmail.com> <9a82d3b9-b393-fb90-326a-96a16d6753cf@gmail.com> <946b46d9-b226-4c3f-a962-d6035e01bd92@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4269de72-2ff4-0fb9-9f8c-44c53bd44b4b@gmail.com> Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > Still, no luck making the console work; the 320H does not assert DTR > or RTS even though it is seeing DSR, CTS, and DCD asserted. > > 2) I cleaned the floppy drive (it wasn't that dirty), re-wrote the > four aix diagnostics floppies and tried them once more in service > mode.? The same thing happened: it reads the complete first disk > (apparently without error), but then it goes again to read the hard > drive and stalls in the same spot.? Does anybody have images of > diagnostics floppies that would be known to work in a 320H? > > 3) I now have AIX 4.3.3 install CDs.? Does the 320H expect a CDROM > drive to be at a specific SCSI ID? > > Carlos. > I have made some progress here.? I imaged the original hard drive and by searching this image in bvi I found that the original AIX version in it is AIX 3.1.???? I found another set of BOSboot diskettes on the net, but for AIX 3.2, and some advice about not running the getrootfs script in the maintenance shell of V3.2 in a V3.1 system.? I was able to boot the maintenance shell off these diskettes (Finally the console came up! My console cable and my MODU serial connector kludge were fine).? I figured a way to mount the hard drive's partitions in this ramdisk-based maintenance shell and get around the very limited commands in this shell (no ed, ex, vi, ls, or many others) to modify /etc/security/passwd, /etc/inittab to something basic.?? I found that there is no /sbin or /usr/sbin in this hard drive, but then I noticed that most of the commands that usually reside in those directories were to be found in /etc .? With one major omission:? there is no /etc/mount anywhere to be found.? I found that the programs in the hard drive bomb immediately ("Killed") in the V3.2 maintenance shell, so I believe that they are binary-incompatible.? After all of this, I was able to boot (partiallly, see below) the machine and log in the root account. But, since the mount command is missing, the file systems in /etc/filesystems were not mounted, so I do not have access to /usr .? I copied the /etc/mount command in the V3.2 maintenance shell to /etc/mount in the hard drive, but this command also bombs under V 3.1. So, I need a copy of the /etc/mount binary from AIX V3.1 .? I think that I can mount a DOS floppy and transfer this binary that way (this system does not have a network card). Or, I can copy the /usr/bin/uudecode binary from the /usr partition to /etc/uudecode in the root partition while in the maintenance shell and then use that to get the binary while under V3.1 . So, does anybody have access to an AIX V3.1 /etc/mount binary? My inittab generates some errors, all of which seem to be attributable to the fact that /usr is not mounted. Eventually, I will probably install AIX 4.3.3, but first I need to get more SD2SCSI devices, so that will take a while. carlos. From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Dec 4 09:28:47 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 08:28:47 -0700 Subject: P112 runs RSX-11 In-Reply-To: References: <70d0e9c6-d3cf-bd9a-a4f6-1bb16f1c0b10@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 7:45 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 12/4/18 9:28 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/04/2018 04:26 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > >> I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX: > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw > >> > >> If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my > >> hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge, > >> Gitlab, et al. > >> > >> > > I did find this here: https://en.everybodywiki.com/RSX-180 > > > That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might > > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. > > > I have two P112's. :-) > http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?downloads has two links to download binaries at the bottom for RSX-180 Warner From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 09:32:15 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 15:32:15 +0000 Subject: P112 runs RSX-11 In-Reply-To: References: <70d0e9c6-d3cf-bd9a-a4f6-1bb16f1c0b10@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/4/18 10:28 AM, Warner Losh wrote: On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 7:45 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: On 12/4/18 9:28 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 12/04/2018 04:26 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw >> >> If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my >> hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge, >> Gitlab, et al. >> >> > I did find this here: https://en.everybodywiki.com/RSX-180 > That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. I have two P112's. :-) http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?downloads has two links to download binaries at the bottom for RSX-180 What about the source? Binaries are fun, but the source would be a lot more fun. bill From drb at msu.edu Tue Dec 4 09:51:16 2018 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2018 10:51:16 -0500 Subject: P112 runs RSX-11 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 04 Dec 2018 15:32:15 +0000.) References: <70d0e9c6-d3cf-bd9a-a4f6-1bb16f1c0b10@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20181204155116.145C7A585FA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. I think that's Hector Peraza's site. His email address is listed; you could try writing to him. De From ethan at 757.org Tue Dec 4 10:33:11 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 11:33:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <0f54c5b4-8c8c-09af-3928-a4bfd302a740@snowmoose.com> References: <16777476311-1ec1-1a55@webjas-vad249.srv.aolmail.net> <0f54c5b4-8c8c-09af-3928-a4bfd302a740@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > Sun never made their own laptop, but they made a portable called the > SPARCstation Voyager. I own a Voyager (Can bring it to the next VCF East if needed.) I have been looking for the padded bag that goes with it for a long time. Any leads appreciated! - Ethan From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Dec 4 11:05:11 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 12:05:11 -0500 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <0f54c5b4-8c8c-09af-3928-a4bfd302a740@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <1677a2e439d-1ec3-1221@webjas-vae028.srv.aolmail.net> https://janit.iki.fi/docs/SPARCstationVoyagerJTF.pdf This? ?document shows? some? ?data? on? this? ?unit.? It is? like the? design? of? today's? ALL IN ONE? ?computers? offering an uncluttered? ?footprint on the? ?desk? top.? ?Never saw? one of these? either in person! Another NEAT? one!? ?Ed# ? ? In a message dated 12/3/2018 9:45:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aperry at snowmoose.com writes: ? A company called RDI made the Britelite and Powerlite laptops. They eventually merged with Tadpole, which made its own SPARC laptops (SPARCbooks). As someone else mentioned, there were different Britelite models based on the various Sun lunchbox system boards. When I had my Britelite IPX on display on VCF, someone told me that they recognized the case as something used in another laptop. Sun never made their own laptop, but they made a portable called the SPARCstation Voyager. On 12/3/18 7:33 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: Very Nice collection!? ? Yes? have to love that? laptop. Did not know? SUN made one. or? I? guess a third? party? put the? Sun? goodies in a case of their? design?? either way? ?NEAT! ? Seeing? ?a? nice? run? of? systems like this in wonderful condition? is? great! ? ? Ed# ? In a message dated 12/2/2018 5:49:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? I will have to get back with you on the audio. It is on offline backup media and I need to find it. Here is a link to some photos of the exhibit - https://photos.app.goo.gl/7qC8UbEYCeCf9CBo7 The RDI Britelite (laptop) is a SPARCstation IPX system board in a laptop chassis. It was in the Day 1 exhibit, but not the Day 2 exhibit because the power adapter died on the morning of the second day. One of the photos is an opened-up SPARCstation LX, which is very similar on the inside to your IPC. My exhibit next year will be on early 90s SPARC clones. alan On 12/2/18 1:43 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Alan...? ?would? ?love? a? copy? of? the? audio? for? our? archives? here. > > > Would? like to? see pix? of? your? display too? sounds? neat! > > Any? other? ?files? text? or? otherwise? welcome? also? ?to? this? address? ?or? drop? us a? ?dropbox? link > > The? Sun? workstations? I? never? knew too much? about as? at the time? ?did not? seems? like? old? history? nor? did? we? use any? so playing catchup! > > Thanks in? advance... > > Ed# > > > > In a message dated 12/2/2018 12:44:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > There is only room for drives in the top half of the chassis.? The PSU > and an assembly that holds the drives fills the top half. A 3.5" > half-height drive fits in one side of the assembly and a 3.5" floppy > drive fits in the other. The PSU cables go from the rear to the front of > that side of the chassis, below the FDD (when the chassis is closed). > > I did an exhibit on Sun lunchbox systems, including the IPC (4/40), for > PNW VCF earlier this year. I looked for press kits, posters, etc. to use > in the exhibit, but could only find text files. I know people who worked > at Sun on the development of those early SPARCstations and none of them > had any of that kind of material. > > I had an audio cassette "Introducing the IPC" for Sun sales. I donated > it to CHM this year (but I ripped the audio before I sent it to them). > > alan > > On 12/2/18 10:13 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> Thanks? for the? info? to? get it? open!? when? back at the? office? ?shall? ?do that..? ?there? may? be? drives in 2 places -? on board and? the off board? one. Always interesting to? explore? something? ?one? has? only? read? about! >> >> >> >> Along the? ?same? line? of? UNIX? ?stuff? ?we? have a? COBALT? ?1U Pretty? blue? sever and a? COBALT? CUBE.? I? do remember? ?lusting? after? one of these? ?1U? COBALT? servers when they? were? current didn't? have anything in? the? budget? back then? though? for? one.? I? have? been? told? SUN? eventually ended up? owning COBALT. >> >> As? will all that? ?we? ? have? we? are? looking? for? any? ad slicks? ?press kits? ? posters,? wild artwork? ?for? the? Sun $/40,? ? and the? 2? COBALT? machines.. >> >> Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC? www.smecc.org >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:15:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aperry at snowmoose.com writes: >> >> >> Yes. It is next to floppy in the upper half of the chassis. There is a 50-pin (IDC connectors) ribbon cable that goes down to system board at the bottom of the lower half of the chassis. The chassis splits in the vertical middle in a, if looking at the chassis, fairly obvious place. Because of the cables that run from the top to bottom, it effectively hinges at the front of the chassis. There a couple buttons on the side to release and sometimes a security cable bit to remove (phillips screw). >> >> On 12/1/18 7:08 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: >> Hi? Alan - The? hard drive is same? size cabinet....? ? with? I? guess a? SCSSI? ?cable.? I? will have? to? look? at? it? ?further...? ?wonder if starting it? out on? a? variac? ?would? help the capacitors? like? I? do? with the old radio sets? here in the museum? ed# >> >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:04:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> aperry at snowmoose.com writes: >> >> Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery isn't that hard to make. >> >> In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power supplies. If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be re'capped now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD that needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with lunchbox systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for working 50-pin SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more sense (unless you want to exhibit them as they originally ran). >> >> alan >> >> On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: >> BUMMER >> It may become a static? display..... >> >> Ed# >> >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. >> >> Yes, one with the dreaded battery. >> >> alan >> >> On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: >>> we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed >>> >>> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 4 11:22:06 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 09:22:06 -0800 Subject: P112 runs RSX-11 In-Reply-To: <20181204155116.145C7A585FA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <70d0e9c6-d3cf-bd9a-a4f6-1bb16f1c0b10@gmail.com> <20181204155116.145C7A585FA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 12/4/18 7:51 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might > > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. > > I think that's Hector Peraza's site. His email address is listed; you > could try writing to him. > > De > Subject: Re: Interested in a Z280 SBC Posted by hperaza on Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:44:09 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message lowen wrote on Wed, 11 October 2017 06:44While I personally would like to see a bit more coordination of efforts especially in the area of the C compiler, assembler, and emulator, I know of several efforts by several people already underway. I am very interested in the emulation side of things, and even going as far as a VHDL or verilog core that could be used in an FPGA. With the annoying bugs fixed, of course! Some of the bugs could even be emulated (if they are not of erratic nature, of course). That could be useful in case someone wants to test a program on the FPGA version that is intended to work on the real iron as well. The "compatibility" mode could be controlled by a bit in an additional CPU control register. Which brings up another question: is there any updated list somewhere of the known Z280 bugs? So far the information available is rather fragmented and incomplete. Quote:To all who are involved in doing a compiler, assembler, or emulator: I know you've probably posted before, but I would like to get a list together of all of these efforts and see what coordination might be possible. OK, here is my list: native Z280 (macro)-assembler, preferably M80 or SLR compatible (currently working on that) debugger (e.g. like DDTZ, but using the single-step capabilities of the chip) get UZI280 working (haven't even looked at it yet) and add more utilities, etc. same for Fuzix port of MP/M better hard disk support (e.g. via FDISK utility like the one for the P112, with automatic recognition of partitions in CP/M and UZI so one will not have to change the BIOS every time partitions change) better ROM setup? again taking the P112 as an example (i.e. adding disk timing parameters to the NV RAM, if possible add a simple embedded debugger?) a Verilog or VHDL Z280 core, perhaps taking T80 as the base. And if I really get the time, would like to make something like this, so it could be plugged directly into the CPU280 CPU socket. and like Lamar I also have my own, other niche project - a port of a multitasking, RSX-11M-like OS I wrote many years ago for the Z80 (now ported to the Z180). The PDP-11 always was my favorite machine, and the Z280 has many PDP-ish features, including a similar MMU, so for me is an interesting hobby project. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 12:20:26 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 19:20:26 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Dec 2018 at 15:02, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > I don't know if the unreal mode has been retained in the x86 architecture > to this day; as I noted above it was not officially supported. But then > some originally undocumented x86 features, such as the second byte of AAD > and AAM instructions actually being an immediate argument that could have > a value different from 10, have become standardised at one point. I know, and was surprised that, v86 mode isn't supported in x86-64. This caused major problems for the developers of DOSEMU. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 12:26:37 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 19:26:37 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 at 02:00, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > Be assured there were enough IBM PC clones running DOS around from 1989 > onwards for this stuff to matter, OK, fair enough. Thanks for the info! > and hardly anyone switched to MS Windows > before version 95 (running Windows 3.0 with the ubiquitous HGC-compatible > graphics adapters was sort of fun anyway, and I am not sure if Windows 3.1 > even supported it; maybe with extra drivers). It did. Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lOGPQQlxT8 Screenshot: http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/2016/12/windows-30-multimedia-edition-early.html The difficult bit was Windows 3.0 on an 8088/8086 with VGA, I believe. The VGA driver contained 80286 instructions because MS didn't imagine anyone would want Win3 on such old PCs. (This again shows that MS didn't believe Win3 would be such a big hit, giving the lie to all the pro-OS/2 anti-MS conspiracy theories... https://virtuallyfun.com/wordpress/2011/06/01/windows-3-0/ ) To run Win3 on an 8086 in VGA mode, you had to replace the CPU with an NEC V20 or V30, as I heard it and faintly recall... The driver did later get patched to work: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?35593-Windows-3-0-VGA-color-driver-for-8088-XT -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From tony.nicholson at computer.org Tue Dec 4 14:17:47 2018 From: tony.nicholson at computer.org (Tony Nicholson) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 07:17:47 +1100 Subject: p112 Message-ID: Hello David I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180. It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this. He intends making the full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still working on preliminary web pages and documenting etc. No doubt he will provide you with more details. I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the Z280RC on the RetroBrew web site at https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc ) and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280. A Z180 system is also on my hobbyist "to-do" list. Should you decide to produce another run I'd be interested in one. Most likely I'd use a CompactFlash on IDE interface and an GoTek style floppy emulator with it. -- Tony Nicholson From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 4 16:18:48 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 15:18:48 -0700 Subject: p112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35e74450-56dc-0a66-9c31-978df5c95daa@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/4/2018 1:17 PM, Tony Nicholson via cctalk wrote: > Hello David > > I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180. > > It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this. He intends making the > full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still working > on preliminary web pages and documenting etc. No doubt he will provide you > with more details. > > I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the Z280RC on > the RetroBrew web site at > https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc ) > and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280. That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it? Ben. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Dec 4 18:56:43 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 16:56:43 -0800 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <1676cd779b6-1ec4-3a3e@webjas-vac097.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1676cd779b6-1ec4-3a3e@webjas-vac097.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <523D8976-6760-47D2-9C9B-104611B80909@eschatologist.net> Most Suns of that era don?t need intact NVRAM to run, you can just key in a few lines of Forth when you start it up (to set its Ethernet address and serial number), then tell it to boot off network/disk/CD, and it?ll be fine. -- Chris > On Dec 1, 2018, at 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > BUMMER > It may become a static display..... > > Ed# > > > In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. > > Yes, one with the dreaded battery. > > alan > > On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: >> we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed >> >> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Dec 4 19:03:06 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 17:03:06 -0800 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <0f54c5b4-8c8c-09af-3928-a4bfd302a740@snowmoose.com> References: <16777476311-1ec1-1a55@webjas-vad249.srv.aolmail.net> <0f54c5b4-8c8c-09af-3928-a4bfd302a740@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: There are also the Fujitsu LeiA SPARC portables. I?ve used OPENSTEP 4.2 on one? -- Chris > On Dec 3, 2018, at 8:45 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > A company called RDI made the Britelite and Powerlite laptops. They eventually merged with Tadpole, which made its own SPARC laptops (SPARCbooks). As someone else mentioned, there were different Britelite models based on the various Sun lunchbox system boards. When I had my Britelite IPX on display on VCF, someone told me that they recognized the case as something used in another laptop. > > Sun never made their own laptop, but they made a portable called the SPARCstation Voyager. > > On 12/3/18 7:33 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: >> Very Nice collection! Yes have to love that laptop. Did not know SUN made one. or I guess a third party put the Sun goodies in a case of their design? either way NEAT! >> >> >> Seeing a nice run of systems like this in wonderful condition is great! >> >> >> Ed# >> >> In a message dated 12/2/2018 5:49:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> I will have to get back with you on the audio. It is on offline backup >> media and I need to find it. >> >> Here is a link to some photos of the exhibit - >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/7qC8UbEYCeCf9CBo7 >> >> The RDI Britelite (laptop) is a SPARCstation IPX system board in a >> laptop chassis. It was in the Day 1 exhibit, but not the Day 2 exhibit >> because the power adapter died on the morning of the second day. >> >> One of the photos is an opened-up SPARCstation LX, which is very similar >> on the inside to your IPC. >> >> My exhibit next year will be on early 90s SPARC clones. >> >> alan >> >> On 12/2/18 1:43 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> > Alan... would love a copy of the audio for our archives here. >> > >> > >> > Would like to see pix of your display too sounds neat! >> > >> > Any other files text or otherwise welcome also to this address or drop us a dropbox link >> > >> > The Sun workstations I never knew too much about as at the time did not seems like old history nor did we use any so playing catchup! >> > >> > Thanks in advance... >> > >> > Ed# >> > >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 12/2/2018 12:44:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> > >> > >> > >> > There is only room for drives in the top half of the chassis. The PSU >> > and an assembly that holds the drives fills the top half. A 3.5" >> > half-height drive fits in one side of the assembly and a 3.5" floppy >> > drive fits in the other. The PSU cables go from the rear to the front of >> > that side of the chassis, below the FDD (when the chassis is closed). >> > >> > I did an exhibit on Sun lunchbox systems, including the IPC (4/40), for >> > PNW VCF earlier this year. I looked for press kits, posters, etc. to use >> > in the exhibit, but could only find text files. I know people who worked >> > at Sun on the development of those early SPARCstations and none of them >> > had any of that kind of material. >> > >> > I had an audio cassette "Introducing the IPC" for Sun sales. I donated >> > it to CHM this year (but I ripped the audio before I sent it to them). >> > >> > alan >> > >> > On 12/2/18 10:13 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> >> Thanks for the info to get it open! when back at the office shall do that.. there may be drives in 2 places - on board and the off board one. Always interesting to explore something one has only read about! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Along the same line of UNIX stuff we have a COBALT 1U Pretty blue sever and a COBALT CUBE. I do remember lusting after one of these 1U COBALT servers when they were current didn't have anything in the budget back then though for one. I have been told SUN eventually ended up owning COBALT. >> >> >> >> As will all that we have we are looking for any ad slicks press kits posters, wild artwork for the Sun $/40, and the 2 COBALT machines.. >> >> >> >> Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC www.smecc.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:15:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aperry at snowmoose.com writes: >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes. It is next to floppy in the upper half of the chassis. There is a 50-pin (IDC connectors) ribbon cable that goes down to system board at the bottom of the lower half of the chassis. The chassis splits in the vertical middle in a, if looking at the chassis, fairly obvious place. Because of the cables that run from the top to bottom, it effectively hinges at the front of the chassis. There a couple buttons on the side to release and sometimes a security cable bit to remove (phillips screw). >> >> >> >> On 12/1/18 7:08 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: >> >> Hi Alan - The hard drive is same size cabinet.... with I guess a SCSSI cable. I will have to look at it further... wonder if starting it out on a variac would help the capacitors like I do with the old radio sets here in the museum ed# >> >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:04:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> >> aperry at snowmoose.com writes: >> >> >> >> Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery isn't that hard to make. >> >> >> >> In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power supplies. If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be re'capped now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD that needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with lunchbox systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for working 50-pin SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more sense (unless you want to exhibit them as they originally ran). >> >> >> >> alan >> >> >> >> On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: >> >> BUMMER >> >> It may become a static display..... >> >> >> >> Ed# >> >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> >> >> A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. >> >> >> >> Yes, one with the dreaded battery. >> >> >> >> alan >> >> >> >> On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: >> >>> we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed >> >>> >> >>> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail >> > From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Dec 4 20:19:18 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 21:19:18 -0500 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <523D8976-6760-47D2-9C9B-104611B80909@eschatologist.net> References: <523D8976-6760-47D2-9C9B-104611B80909@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <1677c2990d2-1ec2-19b1@webjas-vac225.srv.aolmail.net> OK that is promising! Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 Chris Hanson wrote: Most Suns of that era don?t need intact NVRAM to run, you can just key in a few lines of Forth when you start it up (to set its Ethernet address and serial number), then tell it to boot off network/disk/CD, and it?ll be fine. -- Chris > On Dec 1, 2018, at 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > BUMMER > It may become a static display..... > > Ed# > > > In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. > > Yes, one with the dreaded battery. > > alan > > On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: >> we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed >> >> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 11:15:11 2018 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 17:15:11 +0000 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: <1677a2e439d-1ec3-1221@webjas-vae028.srv.aolmail.net> References: <0f54c5b4-8c8c-09af-3928-a4bfd302a740@snowmoose.com>, <1677a2e439d-1ec3-1221@webjas-vae028.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: There are some sparcstation voyagers for sale on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/WORKING-Rare-SUN-Voyager-SPARCstation-Model-146/131537725894?hash=item1ea04269c6:g:xAoAAOSwBLlVgLN8 Wayne > On Dec 4, 2018, at 9:05 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > https://janit.iki.fi/docs/SPARCstationVoyagerJTF.pdf > > > This document shows some data on this unit. It is like the design of today's ALL IN ONE computers offering an uncluttered footprint on the desk top. Never saw one of these either in person! > Another NEAT one! Ed# > > > In a message dated 12/3/2018 9:45:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aperry at snowmoose.com writes: > > > A company called RDI made the Britelite and Powerlite laptops. They eventually merged with Tadpole, which made its own SPARC laptops (SPARCbooks). As someone else mentioned, there were different Britelite models based on the various Sun lunchbox system boards. When I had my Britelite IPX on display on VCF, someone told me that they recognized the case as something used in another laptop. > > Sun never made their own laptop, but they made a portable called the SPARCstation Voyager. > > On 12/3/18 7:33 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > Very Nice collection! Yes have to love that laptop. Did not know SUN made one. or I guess a third party put the Sun goodies in a case of their design? either way NEAT! > > > > Seeing a nice run of systems like this in wonderful condition is great! > > > Ed# > > In a message dated 12/2/2018 5:49:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > I will have to get back with you on the audio. It is on offline backup > > media and I need to find it. > > Here is a link to some photos of the exhibit - > https://photos.app.goo.gl/7qC8UbEYCeCf9CBo7 > > The RDI Britelite (laptop) is a SPARCstation IPX system board in a > laptop chassis. It was in the Day 1 exhibit, but not the Day 2 exhibit > because the power adapter died on the morning of the second day. > > One of the photos is an opened-up SPARCstation LX, which is very similar > on the inside to your IPC. > > My exhibit next year will be on early 90s SPARC clones. > > alan > >> On 12/2/18 1:43 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> Alan... would love a copy of the audio for our archives here. >> >> >> Would like to see pix of your display too sounds neat! >> >> Any other files text or otherwise welcome also to this address or drop us a dropbox link >> >> The Sun workstations I never knew too much about as at the time did not seems like old history nor did we use any so playing catchup! >> >> Thanks in advance... >> >> Ed# >> >> >> >> In a message dated 12/2/2018 12:44:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> >> >> There is only room for drives in the top half of the chassis. The PSU >> and an assembly that holds the drives fills the top half. A 3.5" >> half-height drive fits in one side of the assembly and a 3.5" floppy >> drive fits in the other. The PSU cables go from the rear to the front of >> that side of the chassis, below the FDD (when the chassis is closed). >> >> I did an exhibit on Sun lunchbox systems, including the IPC (4/40), for >> PNW VCF earlier this year. I looked for press kits, posters, etc. to use >> in the exhibit, but could only find text files. I know people who worked >> at Sun on the development of those early SPARCstations and none of them >> had any of that kind of material. >> >> I had an audio cassette "Introducing the IPC" for Sun sales. I donated >> it to CHM this year (but I ripped the audio before I sent it to them). >> >> alan >> >>> On 12/2/18 10:13 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >>> Thanks for the info to get it open! when back at the office shall do that.. there may be drives in 2 places - on board and the off board one. Always interesting to explore something one has only read about! >>> >>> >>> >>> Along the same line of UNIX stuff we have a COBALT 1U Pretty blue sever and a COBALT CUBE. I do remember lusting after one of these 1U COBALT servers when they were current didn't have anything in the budget back then though for one. I have been told SUN eventually ended up owning COBALT. >>> >>> As will all that we have we are looking for any ad slicks press kits posters, wild artwork for the Sun $/40, and the 2 COBALT machines.. >>> >>> Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC www.smecc.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:15:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aperry at snowmoose.com writes: >>> >>> >>> Yes. It is next to floppy in the upper half of the chassis. There is a 50-pin (IDC connectors) ribbon cable that goes down to system board at the bottom of the lower half of the chassis. The chassis splits in the vertical middle in a, if looking at the chassis, fairly obvious place. Because of the cables that run from the top to bottom, it effectively hinges at the front of the chassis. There a couple buttons on the side to release and sometimes a security cable bit to remove (phillips screw). >>> >>> On 12/1/18 7:08 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: >>> Hi Alan - The hard drive is same size cabinet.... with I guess a SCSSI cable. I will have to look at it further... wonder if starting it out on a variac would help the capacitors like I do with the old radio sets here in the museum ed# >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:04:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >>> aperry at snowmoose.com writes: >>> >>> Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery isn't that hard to make. >>> >>> In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power supplies. If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be re'capped now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD that needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with lunchbox systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for working 50-pin SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more sense (unless you want to exhibit them as they originally ran). >>> >>> alan >>> >>> On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: >>> BUMMER >>> It may become a static display..... >>> >>> Ed# >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >>> >>> A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. >>> >>> Yes, one with the dreaded battery. >>> >>> alan >>> >>>> On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: >>>> we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed >>>> >>>> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > From earl at retrobits.com Tue Dec 4 14:24:12 2018 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 12:24:12 -0800 Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 5:09 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > how does one open a RL02 disk pack? A couple of packs need cleaning but I > can't figure out how to open them... > > I was curious to see if there would be any replies to this. I have just shy of 40 RL02 packs, and a few of them had bad scratches rendering them useless. Therefore, I attempted to open them in a non-destructive way, just to see if it was possible. So far, I haven't had much luck. Also, I noted that while all the packs I attempted were DEC (not clones), they did have slightly different construction and mechanics, probably based on production date. - Earl From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Dec 5 03:41:04 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2018 20:41:04 +1100 Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181205204104.01041510@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 12:24 PM 4/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: >On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 5:09 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < >cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> how does one open a RL02 disk pack? A couple of packs need cleaning but I >> can't figure out how to open them... >> >> >I was curious to see if there would be any replies to this. I have just shy >of 40 RL02 packs, and a few of them had bad scratches rendering them >useless. Therefore, I attempted to open them in a non-destructive way, just >to see if it was possible. So far, I haven't had much luck. Also, I noted >that while all the packs I attempted were DEC (not clones), they did have >slightly different construction and mechanics, probably based on production >date. > >- Earl Ha, this made me realize I don't know either. Despite that I now have some RLO3K-DC packs, and one RLO2 drive. Dug one out. After a few moments of being stumped, found the trick. Here's how: On the blue handle, top center, look on the section that has the pivot pins. There is a flat plastic 'button' on which one end is slightly concave. With the handle DOWN (flat), put finger on that concave end of the button, and push sideways, till the button reaches the end of travel. With it still at end of travel, lift the handle up to vertical. At about 45 degrees (half way) you'll feel a resistance, then hear a thump. Once the handle is vertical, lift the pack up by the handle. The lower cover is separated and the disk is exposed. But it still is mostly covered, only a slot for the heads is open. You could lever open the several latches that hold the bottom inner cover on if you wanted. Guy From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Dec 5 03:49:43 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2018 20:49:43 +1100 Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181205204104.01041510@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181205204943.01043000@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 08:41 PM 5/12/2018 +1100, I stupidly wrote: >Ha, this made me realize I don't know either. Despite that I now have some RLO3K-DC >packs, and one RLO2 drive. Typo. That should be RLO2K-DC. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 05:59:35 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 12:59:35 +0100 Subject: Fwd: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> Message-ID: I thought folk might enjoy this short-ish (~12min) Youtube video showing startup of arguably the first ever Sun workstation, from a contemporaneous SunOS... I did. Permission obtained before x-posting, naturally. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Walter Belgers Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 at 12:34 Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) To: The Rescue List Hi, Another update in case you are interested: I rescued a keyboard and mouse to go with the Sun2. I also installed SunOS 3.2 on disk. I took a different route: I installed FreeBSD, installed tme on top of that and using the information at https://people.csail.mit.edu/fredette/tme/ , http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Retro.Sun2 and http://typewritten.org/Projects/Sun/8-4841.html I installed SunOS 3.2 from virtual tapes onto a virtual harddrive. I then copied the virtual drive to a real drive and hooked it up. I could then boot SunOS 3.2! I then took the one TTL monitor I have (for the 2/50) and hooked it up to a bwtwo. At first it did not work, apparently it must be in a specific slot. I added 1MB as well, so the cage is fully populated. That extra MB is used by the btwo. The monitor still worked and I was able to run the graphical windowing system. I had the system on the internet for a couple of hours yesterday, some people logged in remotely and it still felt surprisingly fast. Only when you start hammering the disk it is slow (SCSI-1 is slower than ESDI drives I read). I made a movie of the box, it can be viewed here: https://youtu.be/CoAYs0Uc7As Cheers, Walter. _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From rp at servium.ch Wed Dec 5 07:31:32 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 14:31:32 +0100 Subject: sun model 47. code 4/40 does it have the nvram with battery? In-Reply-To: References: <16777476311-1ec1-1a55@webjas-vad249.srv.aolmail.net> <0f54c5b4-8c8c-09af-3928-a4bfd302a740@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: I have a Fujitsu Leia2 S-4. Does anyone have a manual for it? (even if it's Japanese) On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 2:03 AM Chris Hanson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > There are also the Fujitsu LeiA SPARC portables. I?ve used OPENSTEP 4.2 on > one? > > -- Chris > > > On Dec 3, 2018, at 8:45 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk > wrote: > > > > A company called RDI made the Britelite and Powerlite laptops. They > eventually merged with Tadpole, which made its own SPARC laptops > (SPARCbooks). As someone else mentioned, there were different Britelite > models based on the various Sun lunchbox system boards. When I had my > Britelite IPX on display on VCF, someone told me that they recognized the > case as something used in another laptop. > > > > Sun never made their own laptop, but they made a portable called the > SPARCstation Voyager. > > > > On 12/3/18 7:33 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > >> Very Nice collection! Yes have to love that laptop. Did not know SUN > made one. or I guess a third party put the Sun goodies in a case of > their design? either way NEAT! > >> > >> > >> Seeing a nice run of systems like this in wonderful condition is > great! > >> > >> > >> Ed# > >> > >> In a message dated 12/2/2018 5:49:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > >> > >> I will have to get back with you on the audio. It is on offline backup > >> media and I need to find it. > >> > >> Here is a link to some photos of the exhibit - > >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/7qC8UbEYCeCf9CBo7 > >> > >> The RDI Britelite (laptop) is a SPARCstation IPX system board in a > >> laptop chassis. It was in the Day 1 exhibit, but not the Day 2 exhibit > >> because the power adapter died on the morning of the second day. > >> > >> One of the photos is an opened-up SPARCstation LX, which is very similar > >> on the inside to your IPC. > >> > >> My exhibit next year will be on early 90s SPARC clones. > >> > >> alan > >> > >> On 12/2/18 1:43 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> > Alan... would love a copy of the audio for our archives > here. > >> > > >> > > >> > Would like to see pix of your display too sounds neat! > >> > > >> > Any other files text or otherwise welcome also to this > address or drop us a dropbox link > >> > > >> > The Sun workstations I never knew too much about as at the > time did not seems like old history nor did we use any so playing > catchup! > >> > > >> > Thanks in advance... > >> > > >> > Ed# > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > In a message dated 12/2/2018 12:44:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > There is only room for drives in the top half of the chassis. The PSU > >> > and an assembly that holds the drives fills the top half. A 3.5" > >> > half-height drive fits in one side of the assembly and a 3.5" floppy > >> > drive fits in the other. The PSU cables go from the rear to the front > of > >> > that side of the chassis, below the FDD (when the chassis is closed). > >> > > >> > I did an exhibit on Sun lunchbox systems, including the IPC (4/40), > for > >> > PNW VCF earlier this year. I looked for press kits, posters, etc. to > use > >> > in the exhibit, but could only find text files. I know people who > worked > >> > at Sun on the development of those early SPARCstations and none of > them > >> > had any of that kind of material. > >> > > >> > I had an audio cassette "Introducing the IPC" for Sun sales. I donated > >> > it to CHM this year (but I ripped the audio before I sent it to them). > >> > > >> > alan > >> > > >> > On 12/2/18 10:13 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> >> Thanks for the info to get it open! when back at the office > shall do that.. there may be drives in 2 places - on board and > the off board one. Always interesting to explore something one has > only read about! > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Along the same line of UNIX stuff we have a COBALT 1U > Pretty blue sever and a COBALT CUBE. I do remember lusting after > one of these 1U COBALT servers when they were current didn't have > anything in the budget back then though for one. I have been told > SUN eventually ended up owning COBALT. > >> >> > >> >> As will all that we have we are looking for any ad > slicks press kits posters, wild artwork for the Sun $/40, and > the 2 COBALT machines.. > >> >> > >> >> Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC www.smecc.org > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:15:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > aperry at snowmoose.com writes: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Yes. It is next to floppy in the upper half of the chassis. There is > a 50-pin (IDC connectors) ribbon cable that goes down to system board at > the bottom of the lower half of the chassis. The chassis splits in the > vertical middle in a, if looking at the chassis, fairly obvious place. > Because of the cables that run from the top to bottom, it effectively > hinges at the front of the chassis. There a couple buttons on the side to > release and sometimes a security cable bit to remove (phillips screw). > >> >> > >> >> On 12/1/18 7:08 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > >> >> Hi Alan - The hard drive is same size cabinet.... with I guess > a SCSSI cable. I will have to look at it further... wonder if > starting it out on a variac would help the capacitors like I do > with the old radio sets here in the museum ed# > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 8:04:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > >> >> aperry at snowmoose.com writes: > >> >> > >> >> Well, as I said, in my experience, the NVRAMs that you can buy new > from Mouser work good enough. And the mod to the original battery isn't > that hard to make. > >> >> > >> >> In my experience with IPCs, the bigger problem is the power > supplies. If the PS on the IPC that you have now doesn't need to be > re'capped now, it will need it soon. After that will likely be the HDD that > needs work. Almost all of my HDDs that originally shipped with lunchbox > systems up to the 424 meg (ST1480N) have died. The price for working 50-pin > SCSI HDDs are at a point that SD2SCSI parts make more sense (unless you > want to exhibit them as they originally ran). > >> >> > >> >> alan > >> >> > >> >> On 12/1/18 6:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > >> >> BUMMER > >> >> It may become a static display..... > >> >> > >> >> Ed# > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> In a message dated 12/1/2018 7:53:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > >> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > >> >> > >> >> A 4/40 is a SPARCstation IPC. It used a M48T02 NVRAM for the IDPROM. > >> >> > >> >> Yes, one with the dreaded battery. > >> >> > >> >> alan > >> >> > >> >> On 12/1/18 5:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > >> >>> we were given this and a hard dribe a floor standimg decwriter..... > does this use NV ram with dreaded battery? thanks,ed > >> >>> > >> >>> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > >> > > > > From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Dec 5 08:53:51 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 14:53:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SPARCstation 20 with SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: <2b03c0ba0dfe64cb1aca6e0c31095ca3621de3f1.camel@gmail.com> References: <2b03c0ba0dfe64cb1aca6e0c31095ca3621de3f1.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > The re-work of that Dallas nvram chip is just beautiful. It makes me > ashamed of myself. (I just chopped into the epoxy with a pocket knife, > soldered two leads, and velcroed the new batteries somewhere inside the > machine I installed it in.) There is very little clearance in DECstation 5000 systems, like .1", as per the TURBOchannel specification, between the top of the Dallas chip and the bottom of any TURBOchannel option placed right above it (some have components underneath, including large ICs), and I think the risk of breaking such a non-standard wiring while shuffling option cards is not to be ignored either. Also the design of the system box makes it very difficult to choose a suitable location for a distant battery holder that would not obstruct anything. So I decided to do that properly at the cost of it taking perhaps a little longer to rework a single chip. NB a CR1220 cell is supposed to last for ~8 years in this application if running on battery power all the time, which I think is good enough. A CR2032 cell would last ~50 years, which I think is an overkill, given that the seal is expected to fail much earlier, like after 10 years. An encapsulated power module could instead be used such as the Renata 175-0, where space permits, which would indeed last some 50 years, being airtight, but I haven't seen any reports of its use in this application (I have a couple of those on DEC NVRAM boards and last time I checked they still had the power to hold 1MiB SRAM memory contents after 25+ years). > I salute you sir. :) So far I only made 2 of these, but more are in the pipeline (waiting for a free weekend). Maciej From mi at fritscholyt.de Wed Dec 5 10:43:05 2018 From: mi at fritscholyt.de (Michael Fritsch) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 17:43:05 +0100 Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <699f4ff5-e47e-d91f-f5cd-b7cece94ddee@fritscholyt.de> Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > how does one open a RL02 disk pack? A couple of packs need cleaning but I can't figure out how to > open them... > > Christian > The top of the middle part of the handle (this with the slider) is only glued slighly at the base part. With a screwdriver it is removeable quite easy. After removing it, it reveals the secret of the mechanism. Remove the plastic parts on both sides which act as hinges. Then pull the handle (with the "digital"-sign) outwards with some force. Possibly pry a screwdriver between the inner plastic part and the handle while still applying force to the handle. Eventually it will snap off the eyelets of the plate, which holds the disk in place. Reassembly is a bit fiddly. Before doing this, remove the disk from the pack, otherwise you cannot get it off the magnets! Micha From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 12:00:04 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 13:00:04 -0500 Subject: SPARCstation 20 with SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: <2b03c0ba0dfe64cb1aca6e0c31095ca3621de3f1.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: Nice work, indeed! The clearance issue is part of why I made the repair module boards. Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 9:54 AM Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > > > The re-work of that Dallas nvram chip is just beautiful. It makes me > > ashamed of myself. (I just chopped into the epoxy with a pocket knife, > > soldered two leads, and velcroed the new batteries somewhere inside the > > machine I installed it in.) > > There is very little clearance in DECstation 5000 systems, like .1", as > per the TURBOchannel specification, between the top of the Dallas chip and > the bottom of any TURBOchannel option placed right above it (some have > components underneath, including large ICs), and I think the risk of > breaking such a non-standard wiring while shuffling option cards is not to > be ignored either. Also the design of the system box makes it very > difficult to choose a suitable location for a distant battery holder that > would not obstruct anything. > > So I decided to do that properly at the cost of it taking perhaps a > little longer to rework a single chip. > > NB a CR1220 cell is supposed to last for ~8 years in this application if > running on battery power all the time, which I think is good enough. A > CR2032 cell would last ~50 years, which I think is an overkill, given that > the seal is expected to fail much earlier, like after 10 years. > > An encapsulated power module could instead be used such as the Renata > 175-0, where space permits, which would indeed last some 50 years, being > airtight, but I haven't seen any reports of its use in this application (I > have a couple of those on DEC NVRAM boards and last time I checked they > still had the power to hold 1MiB SRAM memory contents after 25+ years). > > > I salute you sir. > > :) So far I only made 2 of these, but more are in the pipeline (waiting > for a free weekend). > > Maciej > From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Dec 5 12:11:31 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 18:11:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Dec 2018, Liam Proven wrote: > > I don't know if the unreal mode has been retained in the x86 architecture > > to this day; as I noted above it was not officially supported. But then > > some originally undocumented x86 features, such as the second byte of AAD > > and AAM instructions actually being an immediate argument that could have > > a value different from 10, have become standardised at one point. > > I know, and was surprised that, v86 mode isn't supported in x86-64. In the native long mode, that is. If you run the CPU 32-bit, then VM86 works. I guess AMD didn't want to burden the architecture in case pure 64-bit parts were made in the future. > This caused major problems for the developers of DOSEMU. And also for expansion-BIOS emulation, especially with graphics adapters (which, accompanied by scarce to inexistent hardware documentation, made mode switching even trickier in Linux than it already was). It looks like fully-software machine code interpretation like with QEMU is the only way remaining for x86-64. Maciej From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Dec 5 15:38:43 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 08:38:43 +1100 Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181206083843.010b3868@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 02:09 PM 3/12/2018 +0100, Christian wrote: >Hi, >how does one open a RL02 disk pack? A couple of packs need cleaning but I >can't figure out how to open them... Wait, by 'open' do you mean 'release the bottom dust cover', or 'disassemble and remove all plastic till the platters are fully exposed'? By 'cleaning' do you mean blowing dust out with clean compressed air, or some kind of all-surfaces wash & wipe? I'd assumed the former in both, thinking you might (like me) be new to DEC hardware. If you actually want to do a thorough surface clean of the platters, how does one do that anyway? Is there a proceedure recommended by DEC? Because I may eventually need to do this on old RLO2 packs I have, as I get a PDP 11-something system together. Guy From tingox at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 16:00:43 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 23:00:43 +0100 Subject: P112 runs RSX-11 In-Reply-To: References: <70d0e9c6-d3cf-bd9a-a4f6-1bb16f1c0b10@gmail.com> <20181204155116.145C7A585FA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: There is a "contact" link on this page: http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?rsx180 Maybe it works. On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 6:48 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 12/4/18 7:51 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > > That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might > > > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. > > > > I think that's Hector Peraza's site. His email address is listed; you > > could try writing to him. > > > > De > > > > Subject: Re: Interested in a Z280 SBC > Posted by > hperaza > on Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:44:09 GMT > View Forum Message > <> > Reply to Message > lowen wrote on Wed, 11 October 2017 06:44While I personally would like to see a bit more > coordination of efforts especially in the area of the C compiler, assembler, and emulator, I know of > several efforts by several people already underway. I am very interested in the emulation side of > things, and even going as far as a VHDL or verilog core that could be used in an FPGA. With the > annoying bugs fixed, of course! > Some of the bugs could even be emulated (if they are not of erratic nature, of course). That could > be useful in case someone wants to test a program on the FPGA version that is intended to work > on the real iron as well. The "compatibility" mode could be controlled by a bit in an additional CPU > control register. > Which brings up another question: is there any updated list somewhere of the known Z280 bugs? > So far the information available is rather fragmented and incomplete. > Quote:To all who are involved in doing a compiler, assembler, or emulator: I know you've probably > posted before, but I would like to get a list together of all of these efforts and see what > coordination might be possible. > OK, here is my list: > native Z280 (macro)-assembler, preferably M80 or SLR compatible (currently working on that) > debugger (e.g. like DDTZ, but using the single-step capabilities of the chip) get UZI280 working > (haven't even looked at it yet) and add more utilities, etc. same for Fuzix port of MP/M better hard > disk support (e.g. via FDISK utility like the one for the P112, with automatic recognition of > partitions in CP/M and UZI so one will not have to change the BIOS every time partitions change) > better ROM setup? again taking the P112 as an example (i.e. adding disk timing parameters to > the NV RAM, if possible add a simple embedded debugger?) a Verilog or VHDL Z280 core, > perhaps taking T80 as the base. And if I really get the time, would like to make something like this, > so it could be plugged directly into the CPU280 CPU socket. and like Lamar I also have my own, > other niche project - a port of a multitasking, RSX-11M-like OS I wrote many years ago for the Z80 > (now ported to the Z180). The PDP-11 always was my favorite machine, and the Z280 has many > PDP-ish features, including a similar MMU, so for me is an interesting hobby project. > > -- mvh Torfinn From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Dec 5 16:12:27 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 14:12:27 -0800 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> Message-ID: <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> On Dec 5, 2018, at 3:59 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > I thought folk might enjoy this short-ish (~12min) Youtube video > showing startup of arguably the first ever Sun workstation It?s a Sun-2 so it?s not really arguable whether it?s the first ever Sun workstation: It?s not. -- Chris From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 16:50:02 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 17:50:02 -0500 Subject: P112 runs RSX-11 In-Reply-To: References: <70d0e9c6-d3cf-bd9a-a4f6-1bb16f1c0b10@gmail.com> <20181204155116.145C7A585FA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4d3456b8-11e4-adad-adea-d1978b0022f2@gmail.com> On 12/05/2018 05:00 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > There is a "contact" link on this page: > http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?rsx180 > Maybe it works. > On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 6:48 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> >> >> On 12/4/18 7:51 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >>> > That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might >>> > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. >>> >>> I think that's Hector Peraza's site. His email address is listed; you >>> could try writing to him. >>> >>> De >>> >> Subject: Re: Interested in a Z280 SBC >> Posted by >> hperaza >> on Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:44:09 GMT >> View Forum Message >> <> >> Reply to Message >> lowen wrote on Wed, 11 October 2017 06:44While I personally would like to see a bit more >> coordination of efforts especially in the area of the C compiler, assembler, and emulator, I know of >> several efforts by several people already underway. I am very interested in the emulation side of >> things, and even going as far as a VHDL or verilog core that could be used in an FPGA. With the >> annoying bugs fixed, of course! >> Some of the bugs could even be emulated (if they are not of erratic nature, of course). That could >> be useful in case someone wants to test a program on the FPGA version that is intended to work >> on the real iron as well. The "compatibility" mode could be controlled by a bit in an additional CPU >> control register. >> Which brings up another question: is there any updated list somewhere of the known Z280 bugs? >> So far the information available is rather fragmented and incomplete. >> Quote:To all who are involved in doing a compiler, assembler, or emulator: I know you've probably >> posted before, but I would like to get a list together of all of these efforts and see what >> coordination might be possible. >> OK, here is my list: >> native Z280 (macro)-assembler, preferably M80 or SLR compatible (currently working on that) >> debugger (e.g. like DDTZ, but using the single-step capabilities of the chip) get UZI280 working >> (haven't even looked at it yet) and add more utilities, etc. same for Fuzix port of MP/M better hard >> disk support (e.g. via FDISK utility like the one for the P112, with automatic recognition of >> partitions in CP/M and UZI so one will not have to change the BIOS every time partitions change) >> better ROM setup? again taking the P112 as an example (i.e. adding disk timing parameters to >> the NV RAM, if possible add a simple embedded debugger?) a Verilog or VHDL Z280 core, >> perhaps taking T80 as the base. And if I really get the time, would like to make something like this, >> so it could be plugged directly into the CPU280 CPU socket. and like Lamar I also have my own, >> other niche project - a port of a multitasking, RSX-11M-like OS I wrote many years ago for the Z80 >> (now ported to the Z180). The PDP-11 always was my favorite machine, and the Z280 has many >> PDP-ish features, including a similar MMU, so for me is an interesting hobby project. >> >> > I'd love to see source and to my eyes its the first really new OS on z80 family hardware since the few from near the '80s. I don't happen to have a P112 but versions for other hardware has me interested. I have S100 (Compupro, North*star, AmproLB+, SB180, BCC180, kaypros, and more than a few others.? Maybe I should crank a system using real late version Z280s . RSX (RT-11 and others) on PDP-11 is why I have a bunch of Qbus 11s as they are fairly small and friendly.? Allison From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 17:51:27 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 15:51:27 -0800 Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181206083843.010b3868@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181206083843.010b3868@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Sounds like a good youtube video topic... Marc On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 1:38 PM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 02:09 PM 3/12/2018 +0100, Christian wrote: > >Hi, > >how does one open a RL02 disk pack? A couple of packs need cleaning but I > >can't figure out how to open them... > > > Wait, by 'open' do you mean 'release the bottom dust cover', > or 'disassemble and remove all plastic till the platters are fully > exposed'? > > By 'cleaning' do you mean blowing dust out with clean compressed air, > or some kind of all-surfaces wash & wipe? > > I'd assumed the former in both, thinking you might (like me) be new to DEC > hardware. > > If you actually want to do a thorough surface clean of the platters, how > does one > do that anyway? Is there a proceedure recommended by DEC? > Because I may eventually need to do this on old RLO2 packs I have, as I > get a > PDP 11-something system together. > > Guy > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Dec 6 02:39:32 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 09:39:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181206083843.010b3868@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181206083843.010b3868@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2018, it was written > Wait, by 'open' do you mean 'release the bottom dust cover', > or 'disassemble and remove all plastic till the platters are fully exposed'? Of course I mean 'disassemble and remove all plastic till the platters are fully exposed'. I know how to remove the bottom dust cover ;-)) > By 'cleaning' do you mean blowing dust out with clean compressed air, > or some kind of all-surfaces wash & wipe? The latter. I have a couple of disks that need some tougher cleaning than just gently wiping the surface. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Dec 6 02:42:17 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 09:42:17 +0100 (CET) Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: <699f4ff5-e47e-d91f-f5cd-b7cece94ddee@fritscholyt.de> References: <699f4ff5-e47e-d91f-f5cd-b7cece94ddee@fritscholyt.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Dec 2018, Michael Fritsch wrote: > The top of the middle part of the handle (this with the slider) is only glued > slighly at the base part. With a screwdriver it is removeable quite easy. > After removing it, it reveals the secret of the mechanism. [...] > Before doing this, remove the disk from the pack, otherwise you cannot get it > off the magnets! Well, this is exactly my question: how do I remove the disk (= platter) from the pack (= cartridge). And there are no magnets in the disk pack. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Dec 6 03:27:52 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 10:27:52 +0100 (CET) Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: References: <699f4ff5-e47e-d91f-f5cd-b7cece94ddee@fritscholyt.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2018, Christian Corti wrote: > Well, this is exactly my question: how do I remove the disk (= platter) from > the pack (= cartridge). And there are no magnets in the disk pack. Here are some pictures that hopefully clarify my question: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/temp/rl02/ How do I separate the platter from the top of the cartridge/cover? Christian From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 05:00:01 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 12:00:01 +0100 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 at 23:12, Chris Hanson wrote: > > It?s a Sun-2 so it?s not really arguable whether it?s the first ever Sun workstation: It?s not. Not my claim; the author of the video's. Take it up with him, if you're on the Rescue List. But I am mildly curious what your definition of a Sun workstation is, if it excludes a 680x0 machine with Unix and a big monochome bitmap display... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 05:44:43 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 11:44:43 +0000 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 11:19 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 at 23:12, Chris Hanson wrote: > > > > It?s a Sun-2 so it?s not really arguable whether it?s the first ever Sun workstation: It?s not. > > Not my claim; the author of the video's. Take it up with him, if > you're on the Rescue List. > > But I am mildly curious what your definition of a Sun workstation is, > if it excludes a 680x0 machine with Unix and a big monochome bitmap > display... I don't think anyone is questioning that it's a workstation, and that it was made by Sun. I think the problem is over 'first' and that a Sun-2 is not going to be the 'first' model. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 06:28:23 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 13:28:23 +0100 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 12:44, Tony Duell wrote: > > I don't think anyone is questioning that it's a workstation, and that it was > made by Sun. > > I think the problem is over 'first' and that a Sun-2 is not going to be the > 'first' model. Ah! Excellent point. I have to admit, I was totally unfamiliar with the very early Sun products. I was happy with my little ZX Spectrum back then, and being about 14, wasn't paying much attention to the world of academic Unix usage. :-) Looking up the SUN-1, I see that it lacked a graphics adapter, and was a text-only machine. I didn't know that. That alone means that it's not really what I think of when I think of a Sun workstation: no windowing system means that for me it's not really a workstation. But as a single-user Unix machine, yes, it unquestionably qualifies, and I need to redefine my terms and my thinking a little... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From w9gb at icloud.com Thu Dec 6 07:32:23 2018 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 07:32:23 -0600 Subject: N8VEM and z80sbc project Message-ID: In 2015 the content of N8VEM projects were migrated to RetroBrewComputers.org (RBC). https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php Active support for N8VEM and later RBC projects found at RetroBrew Computers Forum. https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1& The N8VEM projects, using the S-100 bus, were migrated to John Monahan?s web site. http://www.s100computers.com/ Discussion forum for S-100 can be found on Google Group: S100computers https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!forum/s100computers greg, w9gb chicago Sent from iPad Air From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 08:13:20 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 09:13:20 -0500 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <193b195e-141f-dcab-cf05-48da908f8788@gmail.com> On 12/06/2018 07:28 AM, Liam Proven via cctech wrote: > On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 12:44, Tony Duell wrote: >> I don't think anyone is questioning that it's a workstation, and that it was >> made by Sun. >> >> I think the problem is over 'first' and that a Sun-2 is not going to be the >> 'first' model. > Ah! Excellent point. I have to admit, I was totally unfamiliar with > the very early Sun products. I was happy with my little ZX Spectrum > back then, and being about 14, wasn't paying much attention to the > world of academic Unix usage. :-) > > Looking up the SUN-1, I see that it lacked a graphics adapter, and was > a text-only machine. I didn't know that. That alone means that it's > not really what I think of when I think of a Sun workstation: no > windowing system means that for me it's not really a workstation. > > But as a single-user Unix machine, yes, it unquestionably qualifies, > and I need to redefine my terms and my thinking a little... > > During my days at DEC in the later 80s the definition of workstation was 1MIPS processing power, 1M pixels, Desktop or desk side (fairly compact).? Graphics and processing power were high and lots of ram and sufficient local disk as well.? Most of the machines were RISC based, Sun (sparc), MIPS, or ARM powered. Allsion From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 08:21:08 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 09:21:08 -0500 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: <193b195e-141f-dcab-cf05-48da908f8788@gmail.com> References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> <193b195e-141f-dcab-cf05-48da908f8788@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014401d48d6e$eee39c00$ccaad400$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison via cctech Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2018 9:13 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) On 12/06/2018 07:28 AM, Liam Proven via cctech wrote: > On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 12:44, Tony Duell wrote: >> I don't think anyone is questioning that it's a workstation, and that it was >> made by Sun. >> >> I think the problem is over 'first' and that a Sun-2 is not going to be the >> 'first' model. > Ah! Excellent point. I have to admit, I was totally unfamiliar with > the very early Sun products. I was happy with my little ZX Spectrum > back then, and being about 14, wasn't paying much attention to the > world of academic Unix usage. :-) > > Looking up the SUN-1, I see that it lacked a graphics adapter, and was > a text-only machine. I didn't know that. That alone means that it's > not really what I think of when I think of a Sun workstation: no > windowing system means that for me it's not really a workstation. > > But as a single-user Unix machine, yes, it unquestionably qualifies, > and I need to redefine my terms and my thinking a little... During my days at DEC in the later 80s the definition of workstation was 1MIPS processing power, 1M pixels, Desktop or desk side (fairly compact). Graphics and processing power were high and lots of ram and sufficient local disk as well. Most of the machines were RISC based, Sun (sparc), MIPS, or ARM powered. Allsion ----- And cost no more than a "megapenny" ;->. See the CMU "3M" definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M_computer ----- From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 08:34:16 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:34:16 +0100 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: <193b195e-141f-dcab-cf05-48da908f8788@gmail.com> References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> <193b195e-141f-dcab-cf05-48da908f8788@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 15:13, allison via cctech wrote: > During my days at DEC in the later 80s the definition of workstation was > 1MIPS processing power, > 1M pixels, Desktop or desk side (fairly compact). Graphics and > processing power were high > and lots of ram and sufficient local disk as well. Most of the machines > were RISC based, > Sun (sparc), MIPS, or ARM powered. Reminiscent of NeXT's "3M computer": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M_computer 1 megapixel, 1 megabyte, 1 MIPS. ISTM that the Sun-1 fails the megapixel requirement, but on further reading, e.g. http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/computer-graphics-music-and-art/15/218/615 , only narrowly. I think I scanned the Wikipedia article too quickly this morning... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Dec 6 08:42:44 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 14:42:44 +0000 Subject: Another p112 Query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While we are talking about the P122....?? :-) Has anyone tried and/or had luck using an 8" floppy drive on the P112? bill From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Dec 6 08:59:08 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 14:59:08 +0000 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 06/12/2018 12:28, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Looking up the SUN-1, I see that it lacked a graphics adapter, and was > a text-only machine. I didn't know that. That alone means that it's > not really what I think of when I think of a Sun workstation: no > windowing system means that for me it's not really a workstation. That's simply not true. The first Sun 1 was actually designed as a CAD system, and did indeed have graphics. *Does* have graphics, I should say, as I've seen it. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Dec 6 08:51:40 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 14:51:40 +0000 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <13d80516-a48c-2977-0f66-e4827300d406@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/12/2018 11:44, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 11:19 AM Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: >> On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 at 23:12, Chris Hanson wrote: >>> >>> It?s a Sun-2 so it?s not really arguable whether it?s the first ever Sun workstation: It?s not. >> But I am mildly curious what your definition of a Sun workstation is, >> if it excludes a 680x0 machine with Unix and a big monochome bitmap >> display... > I don't think anyone is questioning that it's a workstation, and that it was > made by Sun. > > I think the problem is over 'first' and that a Sun-2 is not going to be the > 'first' model. Particularly since I know someone, not far from here, who has a Sun 1. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From dave at 661.org Thu Dec 6 09:37:06 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 07:37:06 -0800 Subject: Another p112 Query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On December 6, 2018 6:42:44 AM PST, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >While we are talking about the P122....?? :-) > > >Has anyone tried and/or had luck using an 8" floppy drive > >on the P112? > > >bill I haven't tried it myself, but a few of my customers have reported success doing so. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Dec 6 10:03:07 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 08:03:07 -0800 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 6, 2018, at 3:00 AM, Liam Proven via cctech wrote: > >> On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 at 23:12, Chris Hanson wrote: >> >> It?s a Sun-2 so it?s not really arguable whether it?s the first ever Sun workstation: It?s not. > > Not my claim; the author of the video's. Take it up with him, if > you're on the Rescue List. Isn?t the author?s claim that this was Sun?s first server? alan > > But I am mildly curious what your definition of a Sun workstation is, > if it excludes a 680x0 machine with Unix and a big monochome bitmap > display... > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Dec 6 10:03:07 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 08:03:07 -0800 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 6, 2018, at 3:00 AM, Liam Proven via cctech wrote: > >> On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 at 23:12, Chris Hanson wrote: >> >> It?s a Sun-2 so it?s not really arguable whether it?s the first ever Sun workstation: It?s not. > > Not my claim; the author of the video's. Take it up with him, if > you're on the Rescue List. Isn?t the author?s claim that this was Sun?s first server? alan > > But I am mildly curious what your definition of a Sun workstation is, > if it excludes a 680x0 machine with Unix and a big monochome bitmap > display... > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 10:11:18 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 11:11:18 -0500 Subject: Another p112 Query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4c0e4df2-cd69-ff8a-17e1-42ae0872b4b2@gmail.com> On 12/06/2018 10:37 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > On December 6, 2018 6:42:44 AM PST, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> While we are talking about the P122....?? :-) >> >> >> Has anyone tried and/or had luck using an 8" floppy drive >> >> on the P112? >> >> >> bill > I haven't tried it myself, but a few of my customers have reported success doing so. The answer is Yes, if you really understand what your asking. I've not used the P112 but I have used the combo part in it for FDC interface and it does/can work with 8", 5.25", 3.5" drive so long as you get the wiring right as they all differ especially the 8".?? It does do CP/M 8" SSSD format which was the primary interest (RX01 was secondary and does that too). The second half of that is the driver for the device as it can do it but it does have to be programmed. The combo chip is basically a 765/8272 with 9229 for clock and FDC interface inside and is not unlike the 37C65/37C765 and remote relations.? Basically it can do any fairly standard soft sector thing? assuming its not one of the odd 1771/1773 formats or based on some unique controller (intel 2D M2FM and RX02).? The chip used was from the PC world and most people that had issues with PCs and 8" disks were trying to work with existing PC FDC drivers limitations. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 10:28:31 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 11:28:31 -0500 Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: References: <699f4ff5-e47e-d91f-f5cd-b7cece94ddee@fritscholyt.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 4:28 AM Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Here are some pictures that hopefully clarify my question: > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/temp/rl02/ > > How do I separate the platter from the top of the cartridge/cover? I don't know that anyone did that back in the day - the pack cleaners I'm aware of had arms that wiped the top and bottom surfaces of the platter while the platter was still mounted inside the shell. I know that RK05 packs _were_ opened and the platter/hub assembly removed, cleaned, and replaced, but they didn't have the locking handle of an RL01/RL02 cart. Also, RK05s can be formatted by users (and often were), but owning to embedded servo data, you _can't_ format RL01/RL02 media in the field, so I'd be hesitant to dismantle the hub on an RL02 pack. -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Dec 6 11:26:37 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 11:26:37 -0600 Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: References: <699f4ff5-e47e-d91f-f5cd-b7cece94ddee@fritscholyt.de> Message-ID: <5C095BCD.2020504@pico-systems.com> On 12/06/2018 10:28 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Also, RK05s can be formatted by users (and often were), > but owning to embedded servo data, you _can't_ format > RL01/RL02 media in the field, so I'd be hesitant to > dismantle the hub on an RL02 pack. -ethan I dropped an RL02 that had the only copy of some programs. When put on the drive, it vibrated badly, and the ready light flickered. I loosened the screws visible on the bottom, and adjusted the centering of the platter visually. I put it back on the drive, and the vibration was much less, but the ready light was still flickering. I adjusted the platter a few more times and then the ready light was solid on, and I was able to read the files! If the owner of the system know what i'd done in the middle of the night, they would have wanted my head! Jon From technoid6502 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:30:45 2018 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 13:30:45 -0500 Subject: SunOS 2.4 Exploit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8418a16316772093d471f5bccfddb20516e81ce4.camel@gmail.com> From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:35:09 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 19:35:09 +0100 Subject: SunOS 2.4 Exploit In-Reply-To: <8418a16316772093d471f5bccfddb20516e81ce4.camel@gmail.com> References: <8418a16316772093d471f5bccfddb20516e81ce4.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's a bit late, isn't it? On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 19:30, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From technoid6502 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:39:14 2018 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 13:39:14 -0500 Subject: SunOS 2.4 Expliot (Re: Old Sparcstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1de6316af3ddb1ddebbf964fb000d8305c8056c0.camel@gmail.com> The Sparcstation 4/330 I reworked the NVRAM chip on.... I got it as-is from Computer Parts Barn in Asheville, NC. It was just round the corner from my home in Oakley.. The machine wouldn't start due to NVRAM, which I fixed. It then actually booted from the original drives, had an OS and data on it. My curiosity was piqued. This is what I did: I hung the drive on my PC running Linux (suse, iirc), and ran John the Ripper on it. I didn't get the root, but I got a user password. I hung the drive back on the Sparcstation and logged in as that user. The machine was being used to model the exhaust from various configurations of rocket nozzles. The previous owner turned out to be NASA at the Marshal Space Flight Center. I wanted root. I set out to abuse the OS, did quite a bit, had a hunch based on the experience while sussing the NVRAM problem. I set the date to 1970, booted, and logged in as the valid user I'd got from good old John. The machine bombed to a single user prompt with a kernel panic 'irrational date'. Passwd worked to change the root pw to something I knew. I went back into the monitor cli, changed the date to the real date, booted and logged in as root. The version of Sunos was 2.4? Just thought this might be helpful to someone. Jeff From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:45:25 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 12:45:25 -0600 Subject: Sun Monochrome TTL Monitors Message-ID: What are people doing for early Sun monitor replacements? I've got a Sun 3/60 that I'd like to hook up to a modern monitor, but am unaware of any means of doing so. Thanks! Kyle From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:47:31 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 12:47:31 -0600 Subject: SunOS 2.4 Exploit In-Reply-To: <8418a16316772093d471f5bccfddb20516e81ce4.camel@gmail.com> References: <8418a16316772093d471f5bccfddb20516e81ce4.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: blank email On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 12:30 PM Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:55:14 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 10:55:14 -0800 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 4:39 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 12:44, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I don't think anyone is questioning that it's a workstation, and that it > was > > made by Sun. > > > > I think the problem is over 'first' and that a Sun-2 is not going to be > the > > 'first' model. > > Ah! Excellent point. I have to admit, I was totally unfamiliar with > the very early Sun products. I was happy with my little ZX Spectrum > back then, and being about 14, wasn't paying much attention to the > world of academic Unix usage. :-) > > Looking up the SUN-1, I see that it lacked a graphics adapter, and was > a text-only machine. I didn't know that. That alone means that it's > not really what I think of when I think of a Sun workstation: no > windowing system means that for me it's not really a workstation. > The Sun-1 absolutely had a framebuffer and a display and was not a text-only machine, it did 1024x800 at 1bpp, had a mouse, the whole deal. See the picture in this article, for example: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Sun-Microsystems-Inc - Josh From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 13:11:17 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 20:11:17 +0100 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 19:55, Josh Dersch wrote: > > The Sun-1 absolutely had a framebuffer and a display and was not a text-only machine, it did 1024x800 at 1bpp, had a mouse, the whole deal. > > See the picture in this article, for example: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Sun-Microsystems-Inc FWIW, no pic for me in that article. But yes, I skim-read the wikipedia page and got the wrong impression. I've already confessed and apologised in this thread. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 13:29:31 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 14:29:31 -0500 Subject: Sun Monochrome TTL Monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 1:45 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > What are people doing for early Sun monitor replacements? I've got a Sun > 3/60 that I'd like to hook up to a modern monitor, but am unaware of any > means of doing so. Kyle, which framebuffer do you have? Here's a shot of the color framebuffer http://www.obsolyte.com/sunPICS/sun3/color360r.jpg The old monochrome framebuffers used ECL signals, IIRC, and that plus the refresh rate might be problematic with modern displays. I also have a 3/60 that is sitting out on my bench that would love to learn the answer to this question. Earlier this year I finally got a Sun3 keyboard (yes... one can make a Sun4 to Sun3 passive adapter, but I never got around to it) and somewhere I have an optical mouse with the modular jack that goes with it (again, an adapter can be made). Absent the answer, I was planning on starting out with a SCSI drive (or an ESDI drive in a Sun3 shoebox) and a serial terminal, just to get the machine running something. All of my real Sun experience starts with the SPARC1 in the early 90s. I didn't really get to play with the Sun3 line when it was current. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 13:30:54 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 14:30:54 -0500 Subject: Sun Monochrome TTL Monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 2:29 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 1:45 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk > wrote: > > What are people doing for early Sun monitor replacements? I've got a Sun > > 3/60 that I'd like to hook up to a modern monitor, but am unaware of any > > means of doing so. > > Kyle, which framebuffer do you have? Kyle, To be more clear, since you mentioned "TTL mono" in your subject line, do you have a bwtwo or something else? -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 6 14:57:22 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 12:57:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: > It???s a Sun-2 so it???s not really arguable whether it???s the first > ever Sun workstation: It???s not. Definitions tend to be RIGID, but completely arbitrary. "MEGAPIXEL" is nice, but enough to EXCLUDE 1024 x 800 ? "First": The author is unaware of anything prior, or all prior instances were in some way uninteresting and unacceptable for the author's use. eg. "Apple2 was the first personal computer", "first book typed on a word processor", etc. "Workstation": Any location where an oppressed worker is compelled to toil. "Multimedia": Two or more Kodak Carousel projectors with a soundtrack. (college "DEFINITION", not "example"!, from half a century ago) One day, our otherwise very dignified department chair came running into the student computer lab (3 dozen 386SX generic PCs), yelling "We're getting SUNS! We're getting SUNS! The loading dock just told me that there are three big boxes labelled 'Multimedia Workstation'!". Later that day, two of the three boxes arrived (the third had been pilfered by an administrator). They were fancy wheeled computer desks for the demo machines in our classrooms, to replace the vintage 5150 rolling standup presentation carts that had been the right height (projector should be taller than desk) and lockable. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 14:57:31 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:57:31 -0500 Subject: Sun Monochrome TTL Monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 2:31 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 2:29 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 1:45 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk > > wrote: > > > What are people doing for early Sun monitor replacements? I've got a > Sun > > > 3/60 that I'd like to hook up to a modern monitor, but am unaware of > any > > > means of doing so. > > > > Kyle, which framebuffer do you have? > > Kyle, > > To be more clear, since you mentioned "TTL mono" in your subject line, > do you have a bwtwo or something else? > > -ethan > I have had a lot of mono monitors that might have worked, went through them all, did not find it as easy as I would have hoped and I presently don't think I have one that synchs. Jon Chapman should know. b From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 6 15:05:59 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 13:05:59 -0800 Subject: Sun Monochrome TTL Monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5a16b55e-53c5-c8a1-1bc3-0d194dfcc03e@bitsavers.org> On 12/6/18 10:45 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > What are people doing for early Sun monitor replacements? I've got a Sun > 3/60 that I'd like to hook up to a modern monitor, but am unaware of any > means of doing so. > > Thanks! > > Kyle > http://tenoxvga.tenox.net/ https://github.com/tenox7/tenoxvga could be a starting point From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 6 15:11:39 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 13:11:39 -0800 Subject: M7237 KJ11 board Message-ID: I bought this and a line clock module on eBay and it turns out the person I got it for only needed the clock, so it's available for $50 plus shipping You need this if you're going to try to run Unix on an 11/35 or 40 and they are pretty tough to find. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 6 15:31:51 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 13:31:51 -0800 Subject: M7237 KJ11 board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: sold On 12/6/18 1:11 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I bought this and a line clock module on eBay and it turns out the person I got it for > only needed the clock, so it's available for $50 plus shipping > > You need this if you're going to try to run Unix on an 11/35 or 40 and they are pretty > tough to find. > > > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 15:39:23 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 22:39:23 +0100 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 21:57, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Definitions tend to be RIGID, but completely arbitrary. > "MEGAPIXEL" is nice, but enough to EXCLUDE 1024 x 800 ? Time is an illusion. Lunchtime, doubly so. > "First": The author is unaware of anything prior, or all prior instances > were in some way uninteresting and unacceptable for the author's use. eg. > "Apple2 was the first personal computer", "first book typed on a word > processor", etc. A fair cop. > "Workstation": Any location where an oppressed worker is compelled to > toil. Ouch. I have one of those. > "Multimedia": Two or more Kodak Carousel projectors with a soundtrack. > (college "DEFINITION", not "example"!, from half a century ago) Heh. > One day, our otherwise very dignified department chair came running into > the student computer lab (3 dozen 386SX generic PCs), yelling "We're > getting SUNS! We're getting SUNS! The loading dock just told me that > there are three big boxes labelled 'Multimedia Workstation'!". Later that > day, two of the three boxes arrived (the third had been pilfered by an > administrator). They were fancy wheeled computer desks for the demo > machines in our classrooms, to replace the vintage 5150 rolling > standup presentation carts that had been the right height (projector > should be taller than desk) and lockable. Oh, the humanity... I must admit, at the time, I liked the "3M" definition. It's also a nod to the famed 3M corporation, which was one of the first I met to successfully pretty much completely obscure what the three Ems actually stood for, so diversified was its business that it was no longer anything to do with its actual name. So conflating 3 entirely unrelated Ems together, and the facetious ETLA-style *fourth* Em, was, ISTM, a facetious reference to this. It seemed like a laudable goal at the time. Now, we all have them, and we've totally squandered that power. It is to weep. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Dec 6 20:09:59 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 20:09:59 -0600 Subject: SunOS 2.4 Expliot (Re: Old Sparcstations In-Reply-To: <1de6316af3ddb1ddebbf964fb000d8305c8056c0.camel@gmail.com> References: <1de6316af3ddb1ddebbf964fb000d8305c8056c0.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20181207021950.A17D1274A4@mx1.ezwind.net> At 12:39 PM 12/6/2018, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: >I hung the drive on my PC running Linux (suse, iirc), and ran John the >Ripper on it. I didn't get the root, but I got a user password. Did you save the original passwd file? You could run other crackers on it at your leisure. - John From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Dec 6 21:20:58 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 19:20:58 -0800 Subject: SunOS 2.4 Expliot (Re: Old Sparcstations In-Reply-To: <1de6316af3ddb1ddebbf964fb000d8305c8056c0.camel@gmail.com> References: <1de6316af3ddb1ddebbf964fb000d8305c8056c0.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 6, 2018, at 10:39, Jeffrey S. Worley wrote: > The Sparcstation 4/330 I reworked the NVRAM chip on?. > I wanted root. Was there something in the way of you booting single-user? I am thinking Suns of that era let you into a boot ROM (via BREAK on serial console, or L1+A on Sun keyboard and framebuffer console) from which you could enter a command like "boot -s? which would boot to a single-user shell. And physical console access is a good place to start for the win. It is less effective than it once was, but remains a good first choice. -Frank McConnell From bear at typewritten.org Thu Dec 6 16:39:56 2018 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 14:39:56 -0800 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <18BAD082-B0A9-4D52-964E-2053DF639A5E@typewritten.org> On Dec 6, 2018, at 10:55 AM, Josh Dersch via cctech wrote: > The Sun-1 absolutely had a framebuffer and a display and was not a > text-only machine, it did 1024x800 at 1bpp, had a mouse, the whole deal. The bwone is a 1024x1024 framebuffer. 768 lines visible; the rest was offscreen. ok bear. -- until further notice From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Dec 7 02:48:54 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 09:48:54 +0100 (CET) Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: References: <699f4ff5-e47e-d91f-f5cd-b7cece94ddee@fritscholyt.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2018, it was written > I don't know that anyone did that back in the day - the pack cleaners > I'm aware of had arms that wiped the top and bottom surfaces of the > platter while the platter was still mounted inside the shell. I know Well I don't have an RL pack cleaner. And in my case it won't suffice, I really need to access the top surface. There are some smudges that need more thorough cleaning with some pressure that I can't apply with just sticking in a swab or something from the side. OTOH the top loading disk packs for our Nova 3 (6045 drive) can be easily dismantled. I thought that the DEC packs would be similar but no, DEC had to invent something different... Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 7 03:59:47 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 09:59:47 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e Message-ID: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Hi All Seasons Greetings.. My PDP-8/e was long due for a major overhaul. 1. So everything out 2. Big Hoover job on the Omnibus 3. Bring up on Variac ? No smoke 4. Check PSU volts. ? All OK 5. Power off 6. Install minimal System ? Front Panel, Three CPU cards, RFI shield, 4k Core and Bus term. 7. Yup all looks in right order 8. Power on 9. Toggle in standard AC count up program 10. Clear + Cont 11. And they are racing at Rockingham!! 12. Yup counts up just like it should. 13. Let it run for a while. 14. All stop. 15. PSU off 16. Inset Async Card (Its 110 baud only) 17. Fire up VT100. Beep - yup its alive. 18. Toggle in keyboard echo test. 19. Clear + Cont ? Program runs 20. And .. yes keyboard gets echoed back. OK now I need a little help. Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the reader on an ASR33? I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have long forgotten My PDP-8 course completion certificate is dated November 1975. Rod Smallwood Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From useddec at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 04:17:21 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 04:17:21 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5c0a449d.1c69fb81.0fff.6b8fSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5c0a449d.1c69fb81.0fff.6b8fSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Congrats!! On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 3:59 AM Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > > Hi All > Seasons Greetings.. > > My PDP-8/e was long due for a major overhaul. > 1. So everything out > 2. Big Hoover job on the Omnibus > 3. Bring up on Variac ? No smoke > 4. Check PSU volts. ? All OK > 5. Power off > 6. Install minimal System ? Front Panel, Three CPU cards, RFI shield, 4k > Core and Bus term. > 7. Yup all looks in right order > 8. Power on > 9. Toggle in standard AC count up program > 10. Clear + Cont > 11. And they are racing at Rockingham!! > 12. Yup counts up just like it should. > 13. Let it run for a while. > 14. All stop. > 15. PSU off > 16. Inset Async Card (Its 110 baud only) > 17. Fire up VT100. Beep - yup its alive. > 18. Toggle in keyboard echo test. > 19. Clear + Cont ? Program runs > 20. And .. yes keyboard gets echoed back. > > OK now I need a little help. > Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the > reader on an ASR33? > I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have > long forgotten > My PDP-8 course completion certificate is dated November 1975. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Dec 7 06:57:28 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:57:28 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: On 07/12/2018 09:59, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > OK now I need a little help. > Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the reader on an ASR33? > I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have long forgotten For a Unix or Linux machine, there's send and rsend, and several other utilities, that you can find at Kevin McQuiggin's web page: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ and on mine: http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-8/ -- Pete Pete Turnbull From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 08:07:40 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 08:07:40 -0600 Subject: Sun Monochrome TTL Monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Upon closer inspection, it appears as though I have no frame buffer. Drats. https://photos.app.goo.gl/ariFxb8xggERExkU9 Anyone have a spare that would work? Thanks, Kyle From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 7 09:24:05 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:24:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack Message-ID: <20181207152405.1FE6918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From>: Christian Corti > I thought that the DEC packs would be similar but no, DEC had to invent > something different... Huh? I thought RL0x drives use an IBM 5440 type pack (as used on the IBM System/3 - I used one of those at my first computer job, they'd just gotten it in); DEC may have used their own format (and servo track stuff), I don't know much about the 5440. Noel From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Dec 7 10:04:46 2018 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 16:04:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP-8/e References: <1380523643.547654.1544198686075.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1380523643.547654.1544198686075@mail.yahoo.com> Several years ago when I restored my 8/M, I whipped up a quick and dirty program that uses TCL/Tk to make a little graphical interface for selecting, reading, and punching paper tape images. When running, it looks something like this: https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/museum/asrscreen.jpg You need the P9P (Plan9 from user space) libraries installed to build it, but I could whip up a binary for you if you'd like to try it out. I typically run it in a shell script that looks like: #!/bin/sh xterm -vb -sb -geom +180+10 -fg '#D0D0FF' -bg black -e asr33 $* BLS -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 12/7/18, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: Subject: PDP-8/e To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Friday, December 7, 2018, 4:59 AM Hi All ? Seasons Greetings.. My PDP-8/e was long due for a major overhaul. 1. So everything out 2. Big Hoover job on the Omnibus 3. Bring up on Variac ? No smoke 4. Check? PSU volts. ? All OK 5. Power off 6. Install minimal System ? Front Panel, Three CPU cards, RFI shield,? 4k Core and Bus term. 7. Yup all looks in right order 8. Power on 9. Toggle in standard AC count up program 10. Clear + Cont 11. And they are racing at Rockingham!! 12. Yup counts up just like it should. 13. Let it run for a while. 14. All stop. 15. PSU off 16. Inset Async Card (Its 110 baud only) 17. Fire up VT100. Beep - yup its alive. 18. Toggle in keyboard echo test. 19. Clear + Cont ? Program runs 20. And .. yes keyboard gets echoed back. OK now I need a little help. Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the reader on an ASR33? I know about? RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have long forgotten My PDP-8 course completion certificate is dated November 1975. Rod Smallwood Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 10:11:03 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 11:11:03 -0500 Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: <20181207152405.1FE6918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181207152405.1FE6918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <038b01d48e47$74241150$5c6c33f0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 10:24 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Opening RL02 disk pack > From>: Christian Corti > I thought that the DEC packs would be similar but no, DEC had to invent > something different... Huh? I thought RL0x drives use an IBM 5440 type pack (as used on the IBM System/3 - I used one of those at my first computer job, they'd just gotten it in); DEC may have used their own format (and servo track stuff), I don't know much about the 5440. Noel ---- Quoted from "DISK DRIVE CONTROL: THE EARLY YEARS" (Abramovitch & Franklin) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3206778_A_brief_history_of_disk_dri ve_control "DEC came out with the 125 TPI RL01 disk drive in 1978,which was the first mass produced full sectored (embedded) servo drive on the market." Sounds to me like it was different, but in a good way? paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 7 10:18:56 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 11:18:56 -0500 Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: <038b01d48e47$74241150$5c6c33f0$@gmail.com> References: <20181207152405.1FE6918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <038b01d48e47$74241150$5c6c33f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <73F46D88-23E6-405C-80AD-E88F6D18E809@comcast.net> > On Dec 7, 2018, at 11:11 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > > Quoted from "DISK DRIVE CONTROL: THE EARLY YEARS" (Abramovitch & Franklin) > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3206778_A_brief_history_of_disk_dri > ve_control > > "DEC came out with the 125 TPI RL01 disk drive in 1978,which was the first > mass > produced full sectored (embedded) servo drive on the market." > > Sounds to me like it was different, but in a good way? > > paul A good way, definitely. Embedded servo enables the vastly higher densities we have today, and also enables the use of all surfaces. A dedicated servo surface is not a major hit on an RP06 that has 10 platters, but on a one or two platter pack it's way too much overhead. paul From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 7 10:43:27 2018 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (mike) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:43:27 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <1380523643.547654.1544198686075@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1380523643.547654.1544198686075.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1380523643.547654.1544198686075@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <084A138531124EBC8FBB623BB8AA9A86@Dumbbunny64> What I do for loading paper tape into my PDP8E via the ASR33 is. 1. key in the RIM loader from the front panel 2. Run the RIM to load the a copy of BIN from the ASR33 paper tape 3. Once the BIN is in core, you can load any other file or program from the ASR 33 Paper tape. What tapes do you have? Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian L. Stuart via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 10:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Rod G8DGR Subject: Re: PDP-8/e Several years ago when I restored my 8/M, I whipped up a quick and dirty program that uses TCL/Tk to make a little graphical interface for selecting, reading, and punching paper tape images. When running, it looks something like this: https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/museum/asrscreen.jpg You need the P9P (Plan9 from user space) libraries installed to build it, but I could whip up a binary for you if you'd like to try it out. I typically run it in a shell script that looks like: #!/bin/sh xterm -vb -sb -geom +180+10 -fg '#D0D0FF' -bg black -e asr33 $* BLS -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 12/7/18, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: Subject: PDP-8/e To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Friday, December 7, 2018, 4:59 AM Hi All ? Seasons Greetings.. My PDP-8/e was long due for a major overhaul. 1. So everything out 2. Big Hoover job on the Omnibus 3. Bring up on Variac ? No smoke 4. Check? PSU volts. ? All OK 5. Power off 6. Install minimal System ? Front Panel, Three CPU cards, RFI shield,? 4k Core and Bus term. 7. Yup all looks in right order 8. Power on 9. Toggle in standard AC count up program 10. Clear + Cont 11. And they are racing at Rockingham!! 12. Yup counts up just like it should. 13. Let it run for a while. 14. All stop. 15. PSU off 16. Inset Async Card (Its 110 baud only) 17. Fire up VT100. Beep - yup its alive. 18. Toggle in keyboard echo test. 19. Clear + Cont ? Program runs 20. And .. yes keyboard gets echoed back. OK now I need a little help. Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the reader on an ASR33? I know about? RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have long forgotten My PDP-8 course completion certificate is dated November 1975. Rod Smallwood Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 7 10:44:34 2018 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (mike) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:44:34 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <1380523643.547654.1544198686075@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1380523643.547654.1544198686075.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1380523643.547654.1544198686075@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <67B6EEC47F73431EBF7C43D9A5488FA9@Dumbbunny64> What I do for loading paper tape into my PDP8E via the ASR33 is. 1. key in the RIM loader from the front panel 2. Run the RIM to load the a copy of BIN from the ASR33 paper tape 3. Once the BIN is in core, you can load any other file or program from the ASR 33 Paper tape. What tapes do you have? Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian L. Stuart via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 10:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Rod G8DGR Subject: Re: PDP-8/e Several years ago when I restored my 8/M, I whipped up a quick and dirty program that uses TCL/Tk to make a little graphical interface for selecting, reading, and punching paper tape images. When running, it looks something like this: https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/museum/asrscreen.jpg You need the P9P (Plan9 from user space) libraries installed to build it, but I could whip up a binary for you if you'd like to try it out. I typically run it in a shell script that looks like: #!/bin/sh xterm -vb -sb -geom +180+10 -fg '#D0D0FF' -bg black -e asr33 $* BLS -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 12/7/18, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: Subject: PDP-8/e To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Friday, December 7, 2018, 4:59 AM Hi All ? Seasons Greetings.. My PDP-8/e was long due for a major overhaul. 1. So everything out 2. Big Hoover job on the Omnibus 3. Bring up on Variac ? No smoke 4. Check? PSU volts. ? All OK 5. Power off 6. Install minimal System ? Front Panel, Three CPU cards, RFI shield,? 4k Core and Bus term. 7. Yup all looks in right order 8. Power on 9. Toggle in standard AC count up program 10. Clear + Cont 11. And they are racing at Rockingham!! 12. Yup counts up just like it should. 13. Let it run for a while. 14. All stop. 15. PSU off 16. Inset Async Card (Its 110 baud only) 17. Fire up VT100. Beep - yup its alive. 18. Toggle in keyboard echo test. 19. Clear + Cont ? Program runs 20. And .. yes keyboard gets echoed back. OK now I need a little help. Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the reader on an ASR33? I know about? RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have long forgotten My PDP-8 course completion certificate is dated November 1975. Rod Smallwood Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Dec 7 10:46:36 2018 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 17:46:36 +0100 Subject: Sun Monochrome TTL Monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09494ffc0e73bc6e8e47d2ecc5b7a34c6bd9dc40.camel@agj.net> fre 2018-12-07 klockan 08:07 -0600 skrev Kyle Owen via cctalk: > Upon closer inspection, it appears as though I have no frame buffer. > Drats. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/ariFxb8xggERExkU9 > > Anyone have a spare that would work? > > Thanks, > > Kyle You have one the ECL one ie (i think) bwtwo. https://www.sun3arc.org/FEH/CPU/3_60.phtml From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Dec 7 10:48:45 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 10:48:45 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2018 03:59 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > > Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the reader on an ASR33? > I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have long forgotten > My PDP-8 course completion certificate is dated November 1975. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > I use minicom on Linux, but don't know if a Windows version is available. It has allowed me to connect to a bunch of older devices and send data back and forth. Jon From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 11:03:51 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:03:51 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: minicom on Linux/*BSD and OS X, TeraTerm under Windows. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 11:48 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/07/2018 03:59 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > > > > Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the > reader on an ASR33? > > I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have > long forgotten > > My PDP-8 course completion certificate is dated November 1975. > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > > I use minicom on Linux, but don't know if a Windows version > is available. It has allowed me to connect to a bunch of > older devices and send data back and forth. > > Jon > From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 7 11:12:34 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 09:12:34 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: I just use ?cat?. Seems to work fine. ;-) TTFN - Guy > On Dec 7, 2018, at 4:57 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > > On 07/12/2018 09:59, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > >> OK now I need a little help. >> Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the reader on an ASR33? >> I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have long forgotten > > For a Unix or Linux machine, there's send and rsend, and several other utilities, that you can find at Kevin McQuiggin's web page: > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ > and on mine: > http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-8/ > > -- > Pete > Pete Turnbull From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 11:22:19 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:22:19 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: Indeed, unless you need character pacing. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 12:13 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I just use ?cat?. Seems to work fine. ;-) > > TTFN - Guy > > > On Dec 7, 2018, at 4:57 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 07/12/2018 09:59, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > > > >> OK now I need a little help. > >> Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate > the reader on an ASR33? > >> I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have > long forgotten > > > > For a Unix or Linux machine, there's send and rsend, and several other > utilities, that you can find at Kevin McQuiggin's web page: > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ > > and on mine: > > http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-8/ > > > > -- > > Pete > > Pete Turnbull > > From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Dec 7 11:35:56 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:35:56 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: These days I just use tip. Warner On Fri, Dec 7, 2018, 10:25 AM systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > Indeed, unless you need character pacing. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 12:13 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I just use ?cat?. Seems to work fine. ;-) > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > On Dec 7, 2018, at 4:57 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On 07/12/2018 09:59, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> OK now I need a little help. > > >> Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate > > the reader on an ASR33? > > >> I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I > have > > long forgotten > > > > > > For a Unix or Linux machine, there's send and rsend, and several other > > utilities, that you can find at Kevin McQuiggin's web page: > > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ > > > and on mine: > > > http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-8/ > > > > > > -- > > > Pete > > > Pete Turnbull > > > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 7 11:38:09 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 17:38:09 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Oh good how do you set them to 110 baud? Rod Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: systems_glitch via cctalk Sent: 07 December 2018 17:06 To: Jon Elson; CCTalk Subject: Re: PDP-8/e minicom on Linux/*BSD and OS X, TeraTerm under Windows. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 11:48 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/07/2018 03:59 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > > > > Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the > reader on an ASR33? > > I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have > long forgotten > > My PDP-8 course completion certificate is dated November 1975. > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > > I use minicom on Linux, but don't know if a Windows version > is available. It has allowed me to connect to a bunch of > older devices and send data back and forth. > > Jon > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 7 11:39:22 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 17:39:22 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: <5B93D594083C018F@rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Er whats tip? Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Warner Losh via cctalk Sent: 07 December 2018 17:36 To: systems_glitch; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-8/e These days I just use tip. Warner On Fri, Dec 7, 2018, 10:25 AM systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > Indeed, unless you need character pacing. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 12:13 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I just use ?cat?. Seems to work fine. ;-) > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > On Dec 7, 2018, at 4:57 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On 07/12/2018 09:59, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> OK now I need a little help. > > >> Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate > > the reader on an ASR33? > > >> I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I > have > > long forgotten > > > > > > For a Unix or Linux machine, there's send and rsend, and several other > > utilities, that you can find at Kevin McQuiggin's web page: > > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ > > > and on mine: > > > http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-8/ > > > > > > -- > > > Pete > > > Pete Turnbull > > > > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Dec 7 11:32:40 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 17:32:40 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: <4c526cf9-6a9c-3145-f532-cd3bdecd8027@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/12/2018 17:22, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Indeed, unless you need character pacing. > > Thanks, > Jonathan That's just what I was going to say :-) And also provided you remember which entry in /dev to redirect cat's output to, and what arcane stty command you need to set baud rate and word size on that, and that you have already edited the leader, trailer, and any junk off the tape file you downloaded from the 'net :-) > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 12:13 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I just use ?cat?. Seems to work fine. ;-) >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >>> On Dec 7, 2018, at 4:57 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> On 07/12/2018 09:59, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> OK now I need a little help. >>>> Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate >> the reader on an ASR33? >>>> I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have >> long forgotten >>> >>> For a Unix or Linux machine, there's send and rsend, and several other >> utilities, that you can find at Kevin McQuiggin's web page: >>> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ >>> and on mine: >>> http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-8/ >>> >>> -- >>> Pete >>> Pete Turnbull >> >> -- Pete Pete Turnbull From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Dec 7 11:44:39 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 11:44:39 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: <5C0AB187.7070104@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2018 11:22 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Indeed, unless you need character pacing. > > Actually, with the correct settings of the serial port (xon/xoff or CTS pin) the serial port driver should do this, too, so cat would work. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Dec 7 11:46:37 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 11:46:37 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2018 11:38 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > Oh good how do you set them to 110 baud? > Oh, WOW! Good catch, it only goes down to 300 baud! major screwup, ought to be reported to the developers. Jon From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 7 11:54:23 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 11:54:23 -0600 Subject: Market improving for monitors? In-Reply-To: <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20181207180131.507DD4E83E@mx2.ezwind.net> On a recent Reddit thread someone claimed that old PC monitors and tube TVs are rising in popularity and price due to retro gamers. Is this true? I wouldn't want to sell anything on eBay I couldn't hold in one hand at arm's length, especially when it comes to packing and shipping. - John From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 12:02:56 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:02:56 -0600 Subject: Market improving for monitors? In-Reply-To: <20181207180131.507DD4E83E@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <20181207180131.507DD4E83E@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: then theres those of us that take old tvs and make walls of tvs to display games or animations at parties and such On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 12:01 PM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > On a recent Reddit thread someone claimed that old PC monitors > and tube TVs are rising in popularity and price due to retro gamers. > > Is this true? > > I wouldn't want to sell anything on eBay I couldn't hold in > one hand at arm's length, especially when it comes to packing > and shipping. > > - John > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Dec 7 12:55:37 2018 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:55:37 -0800 Subject: Market improving for monitors? In-Reply-To: <20181207180131.507DD4E83E@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <20181207180131.507DD4E83E@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: If you want to avoid shipping you see if there's a vintage arcade game group in your area and see what they are looking for. Most people seem to be replacing tubes with equivalent size panels, though. On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 10:01 AM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > On a recent Reddit thread someone claimed that old PC monitors > and tube TVs are rising in popularity and price due to retro gamers. > > Is this true? > > I wouldn't want to sell anything on eBay I couldn't hold in > one hand at arm's length, especially when it comes to packing > and shipping. > > - John > > -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 13:01:36 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:01:36 -0600 Subject: Sun Monochrome TTL Monitors In-Reply-To: <09494ffc0e73bc6e8e47d2ecc5b7a34c6bd9dc40.camel@agj.net> References: <09494ffc0e73bc6e8e47d2ecc5b7a34c6bd9dc40.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 10:46 AM Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > You have one the ECL one ie (i think) bwtwo. > > https://www.sun3arc.org/FEH/CPU/3_60.phtml Ahh, so it's built onto the board itself. Cool. I'll see about what it would take to convert it to something else; might be a good Verilog project. Might see about using the project Al mentioned for inspiration. Thanks! Kyle From ethan at 757.org Fri Dec 7 13:06:08 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:06:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Market improving for monitors? In-Reply-To: <20181207180131.507DD4E83E@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <20181207180131.507DD4E83E@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > On a recent Reddit thread someone claimed that old PC monitors > and tube TVs are rising in popularity and price due to retro gamers. > Is this true? SOME TVs. Not every TV. The gamers want the pro broadcast video monitors that have RGB inputs. Sony PVM and the like. Search ebay for Sony PVM RGB and you will see some. Digital TVs usually have to buffer a frame before displaying it so displayed images are one frame behind (or more.) Old games were authored for their look on a CRT, so on LCDs you can see compression color artifacts and whatever else. The PVMs were very expensive new, so it's like driving an old high end car I guess. They may also be into other Sony and higher end late model TVs, but at less $$$ than the PVMs. I chalk a lot of it up to a hobby and a hunt, but they're keeping high quality hardware in usable condition so +1 for them! > I wouldn't want to sell anything on eBay I couldn't hold in > one hand at arm's length, especially when it comes to packing > and shipping. A lot of the PVM monitors are less than 25". Crap VGA monitors can still be found, but harder to find the nicer ones. CGA monitors (Tandy CM-11?) seem to be quite difficult to find now. My friend's CM-5 blew the flyback when it was out at an event and afaik China isn't reproducing anything like that yet (they do for the arcade monitors.) I own 1 Sony PVM, a cube. Need the speakers that screw to the sides. My friend who gave it to me has about 20 of them including a $30,000 reference mointor that is widescreen CRT Sony 16:9. Maybe a 23" picture and heavy as all hell. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Fri Dec 7 13:08:45 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:08:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Market improving for monitors? In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <20181207180131.507DD4E83E@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > If you want to avoid shipping you see if there's a vintage arcade game > group in your area and see what they are looking for. Most people seem to > be replacing tubes with equivalent size panels, though. BLASPHEMY! Noooo! There are no LCDs that are 4:3 above 21". Not 25", not 27/29" models. The arcade geeks have a database of curb found TV models, what tube is in them by part #, yoke coil ohm readings and neck connector. That way they can match up 19" tubes to Wells Gardner, Electrohome, Sanyo and other arcade monitor chassis to replace the burned in tubes from games that didn't change home screen enough (Pac Man, Ms Pac, Centipede, etc.) There are people that take classic games, throw in crap 19" LCD panel and a $40 60-in-1 board and sell them for $2000. But that's not the collectors. -- : Ethan O'Toole From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 7 13:18:56 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:18:56 -0500 Subject: Market improving for monitors? In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <20181207180131.507DD4E83E@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6B0F4B99-23EF-4E25-B4A7-59C1D8E71F50@comcast.net> > On Dec 7, 2018, at 2:06 PM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > >> On a recent Reddit thread someone claimed that old PC monitors >> and tube TVs are rising in popularity and price due to retro gamers. >> Is this true? > > SOME TVs. Not every TV. The gamers want the pro broadcast video monitors that have RGB inputs. Sony PVM and the like. Search ebay for Sony PVM RGB and you will see some. > > Digital TVs usually have to buffer a frame before displaying it so displayed images are one frame behind (or more.) Old games were authored for their look on a CRT, so on LCDs you can see compression color artifacts and whatever else. I know digital TV is compressed, but I didn't think that the video link from the TV machinery to the display is compressed. That's HDMI, which is a derivative of DVI, which is an uncompressed pixel stream. Or am I confused? You don't get compression artifacts when displaying computer displays on an LCD panel. Does a plain LCD panel have delay? If not, what about a TV used as a monitor? My new 4k TV can display HDMI from my laptop. But it offers to do image processing on it, which I turned off because I don't want my display messed with. That suggests it might be doing buffering in order to have a chance to do that manipulation. paul From pb at pbcl.net Fri Dec 7 13:36:32 2018 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 19:36:32 +0000 Subject: Market improving for monitors? In-Reply-To: <6B0F4B99-23EF-4E25-B4A7-59C1D8E71F50@comcast.net> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <20181207180131.507DD4E83E@mx2.ezwind.net> <6B0F4B99-23EF-4E25-B4A7-59C1D8E71F50@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1544211392.2927.7.camel@pbcl.net> On Fri, 2018-12-07 at 14:18 -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Does a plain LCD panel have delay???If not, what about a TV used as a > monitor? Depends what you mean by a "plain LCD panel". If you mean the glass itself, no, they generally scan synchronously to the input signal and don't have any appreciable delay. But all commercially-available LCD TVs and monitors have at least some input buffering which adds maybe 10ms-30ms of latency in most cases. One frame time at 60fps is 16ms, so if you wait for each picture to be completely scanned in over HDMI before you start scanning it out to the glass then that's going to set your minimum latency. And obviously if the input frame rate is less than 60fps it's possible that the latency may go up. TVs tend to have more picture processing than monitors, and also less market pressure for low latency. But there's very little technical difference between an LCD TV and an LCD monitor. p. From ethan at 757.org Fri Dec 7 14:08:41 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 15:08:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Market improving for monitors? In-Reply-To: <1544211392.2927.7.camel@pbcl.net> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <20181207180131.507DD4E83E@mx2.ezwind.net> <6B0F4B99-23EF-4E25-B4A7-59C1D8E71F50@comcast.net> <1544211392.2927.7.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: > 10ms-30ms of latency in most cases. One frame time at 60fps is 16ms, > so if you wait for each picture to be completely scanned in over HDMI > before you start scanning it out to the glass then that's going to set > your minimum latency. And obviously if the input frame rate is less > than 60fps it's possible that the latency may go up. We had an arcade game at MAGFest (Music and Gaming fest with a computer museum room in the greater DC area) that used dual LCD TVs from a hdmi splitter. The players complained that the one side was too laggy. Friend put a LCD latency test unit on the displays, and sure enough one screen was about 30ms behind the other. Playing with the test widget (it's a box with a hdmi cable, box goes against screen and detects the flashing) the top of the screen and bottom of screen is definitely off a chunk of time as the rows are scanned in order across the panel (at least on TVs we had.) We swapped it out. The LED video wall stuff I play with scans the image in every 8 lines, but it's much slower than a TV. I don't know how humans do it, but on some of the music rhythm arcade games that use LCDs it's desired to have the original LCD over any replacement since the timing of the game is meant for it. People have made hacked DLLs that allow adjustment of timing windows but it's never as good as the original, which is why the original LCDs sometimes go for $5000. These games are imported from Japan. How does a human do this? You hit the button as the line comes to the bottom of the screen where the solid line is across the bottom. This is why the timing is important: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy2h2yDKYyY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nGhSAoQqcA (Those aren't really on fast, the games go quite a bit faster than that even) - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From cctalk at emailtoilet.com Fri Dec 7 14:30:44 2018 From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:30:44 -0800 Subject: IT books available Message-ID: <007d01d48e6b$ba8a7cf0$2f9f76d0$@emailtoilet.com> Listed these on eBay a few times. No takers. Being offered here for the price of USPS Media Mail cost. Total of 52 lbs of books in 2 boxes. I estimate shipping at $137. Price will be actual shipping cost payable by PayPal. See books at http://www.myimagecollection.com/ITBooks/ Slides pause for 5 seconds each or you can click the Pause button. No pressure but they hit the trashcan 12/14/2018. J From earl at baugh.org Fri Dec 7 14:31:39 2018 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 15:31:39 -0500 Subject: Sun 1 and Framebuffer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 4:39 AM Liam Proven via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 12:44, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I don't think anyone is questioning that it's a workstation, and that > it > > was made by Sun. > > > > > > I think the problem is over 'first' and that a Sun-2 is not going to be > > the 'first' model. > > > > Ah! Excellent point. I have to admit, I was totally unfamiliar with > > the very early Sun products. I was happy with my little ZX Spectrum > > back then, and being about 14, wasn't paying much attention to the > > world of academic Unix usage. :-) > > > > Looking up the SUN-1, I see that it lacked a graphics adapter, and was > > a text-only machine. I didn't know that. That alone means that it's > > not really what I think of when I think of a Sun workstation: no > > windowing system means that for me it's not really a workstation. > > The Sun-1 absolutely had a framebuffer and a display and was not a > text-only machine, it did 1024x800 at 1bpp, had a mouse, the whole deal. > > See the picture in this article, for example: > https://www.britannica.com/topic/Sun-Microsystems-Inc I can 100% confirm this. I have a Sun 1/100 that runs just fine...and it fires up Suntools with mouse and windows... Windowing pretty much the same as any other Sun running circa Sun OS 3.2 It came standard with B/W framebuffer. I also have the color framebuffer option (not currently installed... don't have a monitor that works with that) The base system has a monitor that does what looks like the standard Sun 1152x900 resolution (I've not confirmed that but sure looks the same as my other early Suns...) Earl From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Dec 7 14:39:36 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:39:36 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5c0ab04c.1c69fb81.32413.24e4SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5c0ab04c.1c69fb81.32413.24e4SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: tip is the standard BSD program for calling other unix systems. It's a fine terminal program. 'tip -110 com1' is all you'd need to do in this case :). Warner On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 10:39 AM Rod G8DGR wrote: > Er whats tip? > > > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > > *From: *Warner Losh via cctalk > *Sent: *07 December 2018 17:36 > *To: *systems_glitch ; General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > *Subject: *Re: PDP-8/e > > > > These days I just use tip. > > > > Warner > > > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018, 10:25 AM systems_glitch via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > > Indeed, unless you need character pacing. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Jonathan > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 12:13 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > I just use ?cat?. Seems to work fine. ;-) > > > > > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > > > > > On Dec 7, 2018, at 4:57 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk < > > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On 07/12/2018 09:59, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> OK now I need a little help. > > > > >> Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate > > > > the reader on an ASR33? > > > > >> I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I > > > have > > > > long forgotten > > > > > > > > > > For a Unix or Linux machine, there's send and rsend, and several > other > > > > utilities, that you can find at Kevin McQuiggin's web page: > > > > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ > > > > > and on mine: > > > > > http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-8/ > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Pete > > > > > Pete Turnbull > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 14:42:24 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 21:42:24 +0100 Subject: Tektronix xp217 In-Reply-To: <5c0a449b.1c69fb81.42021.a10cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5c0a449b.1c69fb81.42021.a10cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: hi I have for sale a Tektronix xp217 unit, with its PSU and original CD software. let me know if someone is interested. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Dec 7 14:53:03 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:53:03 -0800 Subject: IT books available In-Reply-To: <007d01d48e6b$ba8a7cf0$2f9f76d0$@emailtoilet.com> References: <007d01d48e6b$ba8a7cf0$2f9f76d0$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <54543357-573F-4962-A765-2151A3128FD1@eschatologist.net> On Dec 7, 2018, at 12:30 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > > Listed these on eBay a few times. No takers. Did you list only the lot or the individual books? Asking people to buy the whole lot might be the issue. -- Chris From bear at typewritten.org Fri Dec 7 13:23:45 2018 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 11:23:45 -0800 Subject: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie (was: advise on Sun2 disk install) In-Reply-To: <18BAD082-B0A9-4D52-964E-2053DF639A5E@typewritten.org> References: <1B42838F-1313-4735-90A1-9CD7CECC16D3@belgers.com> <70E8A250-EC59-4726-9FFA-0A8C9E53230F@belgers.com> <7b2e9912-1496-5d3a-4554-95d88a828009@neurotica.com> <4FA90F6E-E93E-414F-BD94-E4E2CF3D8E2E@belgers.com> <8139AD49-9397-45F3-B1AD-FB0FAD867B9E@eschatologist.net> <18BAD082-B0A9-4D52-964E-2053DF639A5E@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <9F856C40-084D-438F-BCDA-85B8F3184FF6@typewritten.org> On Dec 6, 2018, at 2:39 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > On Dec 6, 2018, at 10:55 AM, Josh Dersch via cctech wrote: > >> The Sun-1 absolutely had a framebuffer and a display and was not a >> text-only machine, it did 1024x800 at 1bpp, had a mouse, the whole deal. > > The bwone is a 1024x1024 framebuffer. 768 lines visible; the rest was offscreen. Josh is correct, 800 lines visible. I was thinking of something else. ok bear. -- until further notice From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Dec 7 15:03:19 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 16:03:19 -0500 Subject: IT books available In-Reply-To: <007d01d48e6b$ba8a7cf0$2f9f76d0$@emailtoilet.com> References: <007d01d48e6b$ba8a7cf0$2f9f76d0$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: I think you need to recheck the shipping estimate. -----Original Message----- From: Donald via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 3:30 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: IT books available Listed these on eBay a few times. No takers. Being offered here for the price of USPS Media Mail cost. Total of 52 lbs of books in 2 boxes. I estimate shipping at $137. Price will be actual shipping cost payable by PayPal. See books at http://www.myimagecollection.com/ITBooks/ Slides pause for 5 seconds each or you can click the Pause button. No pressure but they hit the trashcan 12/14/2018. J --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 7 15:10:17 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:10:17 -0800 Subject: ISO NCD M88K firmware dump Message-ID: The MAME folks have the 68K versions of the terminals mostly working in simulation now, and are wondering if anyone could dump the firmware from the 88K model, which has a similar hardware design. From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 15:25:39 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 22:25:39 +0100 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? Message-ID: Anyone has old DECUS distributions? I am looking for the PDP-11 SPACE WAR program. It is supposed to be 11-192, written by William (Bill) Seilier and Lawrence (Larry) Bryant in 1974. https://i.imgur.com/rjaWX4X.png It is a space war like program for the PDP-11/10 with AA11 and AD01. Much later Bill rewrote it in C for the MSP430: http://processors.wiki.ti.com/images/tmp/f1276339401-2015330541.html https://github.com/dlitz/openmsp430/blob/master/fpga/actel_m1a3pl_dev_kit/software/spacewar/main.c But where is the original PAL-11 source? Anyone? From cctalk at emailtoilet.com Fri Dec 7 15:32:33 2018 From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:32:33 -0800 Subject: IT books available In-Reply-To: <54543357-573F-4962-A765-2151A3128FD1@eschatologist.net> References: <007d01d48e6b$ba8a7cf0$2f9f76d0$@emailtoilet.com> <54543357-573F-4962-A765-2151A3128FD1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <000601d48e74$5dcc5610$19650230$@emailtoilet.com> I don't have time or patience to list individually. I have found it takes at least 20 minutes per item to list something. Lots of time. Plus the listing fees, selling fees and postage vs what I could sell them for puts me at less than half old minimum wage. :-) -----Original Message----- From: Chris Hanson [mailto:cmhanson at eschatologist.net] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 12:53 PM To: cctalk at emailtoilet.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IT books available On Dec 7, 2018, at 12:30 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > > Listed these on eBay a few times. No takers. Did you list only the lot or the individual books? Asking people to buy the whole lot might be the issue. -- Chris From cctalk at emailtoilet.com Fri Dec 7 15:37:43 2018 From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:37:43 -0800 Subject: IT books available In-Reply-To: References: <007d01d48e6b$ba8a7cf0$2f9f76d0$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <000701d48e75$1639edc0$42adc940$@emailtoilet.com> When I searched I saw something that said $2.63. I took that to be per pound. Now I see elsewhere a 26 pound box is $15.41. So let's says shipping will be $32. If it turns out to be more I will request more. :-) -----Original Message----- From: TeoZ [mailto:teoz at neo.rr.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 1:03 PM To: cctalk at emailtoilet.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IT books available I think you need to recheck the shipping estimate. -----Original Message----- From: Donald via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 3:30 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: IT books available Listed these on eBay a few times. No takers. Being offered here for the price of USPS Media Mail cost. Total of 52 lbs of books in 2 boxes. I estimate shipping at $137. Price will be actual shipping cost payable by PayPal. See books at http://www.myimagecollection.com/ITBooks/ Slides pause for 5 seconds each or you can click the Pause button. No pressure but they hit the trashcan 12/14/2018. J --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Dec 7 15:54:07 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 16:54:07 -0500 Subject: IT books available In-Reply-To: <000701d48e75$1639edc0$42adc940$@emailtoilet.com> References: <007d01d48e6b$ba8a7cf0$2f9f76d0$@emailtoilet.com> <000701d48e75$1639edc0$42adc940$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: On 2018-12-07 4:37 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > When I searched I saw something that said $2.63. I took that to be per > pound. Now I see elsewhere a 26 pound box is $15.41. > > So let's says shipping will be $32. If it turns out to be more I will > request more. :-) > Shipping isn't such a simple linear function. It's best to quote by _actual_ size, weight, and service, and tell buyers which service you've quoted. It's also perhaps best, as Chris said, not to expect people to buy things in 52-pound lots. --Toby (frequent international buyer) From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 7 16:04:52 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:04:52 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> On 12/7/18 1:25 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Anyone has old DECUS distributions? For all intents and purposes, no DECUS threw them out. About the only thing that survives are the titles that were included on some of the SIG tapes. Working on gathering what parts still survive in individual collections would be a good thing, but I'm not holding my breath for it to happen. From guykd at optusnet.com.au Fri Dec 7 16:16:32 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2018 09:16:32 +1100 Subject: IT books available In-Reply-To: <000601d48e74$5dcc5610$19650230$@emailtoilet.com> References: <54543357-573F-4962-A765-2151A3128FD1@eschatologist.net> <007d01d48e6b$ba8a7cf0$2f9f76d0$@emailtoilet.com> <54543357-573F-4962-A765-2151A3128FD1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181208091632.011103e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 01:32 PM 7/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: >I don't have time or patience to list individually. I have found it takes >at least 20 minutes per item to list something. Lots of time. Plus the >listing fees, selling fees and postage vs what I could sell them for puts me >at less than half old minimum wage. :-) True. Plus the individual trips to the post office. However that's ebay and this is here. I like some of them. What's the approximate cost to P&P these 7 volumes for me to my reshipper in Hawthorne, CA 90250 ? Slide 2 AS/400 - concepts and facilities CLIST programming * Introduction to SNA Networking Using IBM's ISPF dialog manager * REXX in the TSO environment * Slide 4 Programming solutions handbook for IBM micro-computers Advanced assembler language and MVS interfaces (*) I have no idea what this is, just curious. If someone else really needs it, I defer. The others listed are also for curiosity and 'library reasons' not actual need. -- Guy > >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Hanson [mailto:cmhanson at eschatologist.net] >Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 12:53 PM >To: cctalk at emailtoilet.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: IT books available > >On Dec 7, 2018, at 12:30 PM, Donald via cctalk >wrote: >> >> Listed these on eBay a few times. No takers. > >Did you list only the lot or the individual books? Asking people to buy the >whole lot might be the issue. > > -- Chris > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 7 16:21:28 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 17:21:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack Message-ID: <20181207222128.5194418C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Birkel >> I thought RL0x drives use an IBM 5440 type pack (as used on the IBM >> System/3 .... DEC may have used their own format (and servo track >> stuff), I don't know much about the 5440. > Sounds to me like it was different, but in a good way? I took a look, and found a manual for a 5440: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/system3/GA33-3002-0_5444_5440_ComponentsDescr_Aug70.pdf and the details (format, etc) are indeed different. The packs are physically compatible, but that's as far as it goes. Noel From cctalk at emailtoilet.com Fri Dec 7 16:23:35 2018 From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:23:35 -0800 Subject: IT books available In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181208091632.011103e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <54543357-573F-4962-A765-2151A3128FD1@eschatologist.net> <007d01d48e6b$ba8a7cf0$2f9f76d0$@emailtoilet.com> <54543357-573F-4962-A765-2151A3128FD1@eschatologist.net> <3.0.6.32.20181208091632.011103e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <000601d48e7b$7e989f00$7bc9dd00$@emailtoilet.com> Sorry. The lot was spoken for at 14:00 sharp Pacific time. In my best Emily Litella voice: Never mind. :-) -----Original Message----- From: Guy Dunphy [mailto:guykd at optusnet.com.au] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 2:17 PM To: cctalk at emailtoilet.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: IT books available At 01:32 PM 7/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: >I don't have time or patience to list individually. I have found it takes >at least 20 minutes per item to list something. Lots of time. Plus the >listing fees, selling fees and postage vs what I could sell them for puts me >at less than half old minimum wage. :-) True. Plus the individual trips to the post office. However that's ebay and this is here. I like some of them. What's the approximate cost to P&P these 7 volumes for me to my reshipper in Hawthorne, CA 90250 ? Slide 2 AS/400 - concepts and facilities CLIST programming * Introduction to SNA Networking Using IBM's ISPF dialog manager * REXX in the TSO environment * Slide 4 Programming solutions handbook for IBM micro-computers Advanced assembler language and MVS interfaces (*) I have no idea what this is, just curious. If someone else really needs it, I defer. The others listed are also for curiosity and 'library reasons' not actual need. -- Guy > >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Hanson [mailto:cmhanson at eschatologist.net] >Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 12:53 PM >To: cctalk at emailtoilet.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: IT books available > >On Dec 7, 2018, at 12:30 PM, Donald via cctalk >wrote: >> >> Listed these on eBay a few times. No takers. > >Did you list only the lot or the individual books? Asking people to buy the >whole lot might be the issue. > > -- Chris > > > From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 16:34:28 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 23:34:28 +0100 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Den fre 7 dec. 2018 kl 23:04 skrev Al Kossow via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > > > On 12/7/18 1:25 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone has old DECUS distributions? > > For all intents and purposes, no > > DECUS threw them out. > Sad. > > About the only thing that survives are the titles that > were included on some of the SIG tapes. > > Working on gathering what parts still survive in individual > collections would be a good thing, but I'm not holding my > breath for it to happen. > I will check the labels of all the RL01, RL02, RK05 and RK07 packs I have to see if there happens to be any DECUS material on them. However I found one Bill Seiler in Santa Cruz that is very likely to be the very Bill Seiler that wrote the original SPACE WAR for PDP-11. Since he at least had the source in 2006 it might be so that he still has it? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 16:42:05 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 16:42:05 -0600 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: someone should get the source off him and put it out on the web On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 4:34 PM Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Den fre 7 dec. 2018 kl 23:04 skrev Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > > > > > > > On 12/7/18 1:25 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > > Anyone has old DECUS distributions? > > > > For all intents and purposes, no > > > > DECUS threw them out. > > > > Sad. > > > > > About the only thing that survives are the titles that > > were included on some of the SIG tapes. > > > > Working on gathering what parts still survive in individual > > collections would be a good thing, but I'm not holding my > > breath for it to happen. > > > > I will check the labels of all the RL01, RL02, RK05 and RK07 packs I have > to see if there happens to be any DECUS material on them. > > However I found one Bill Seiler in Santa Cruz that is very likely to be the > very Bill Seiler that wrote the original SPACE WAR for PDP-11. Since he at > least had the source in 2006 it might be so that he still has it? > From radioengr at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 17:31:24 2018 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 16:31:24 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5c0ab29c.1c69fb81.a83c5.253aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5c0ab29c.1c69fb81.a83c5.253aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8e1ca272-a075-4bce-0769-c1cf8043eacd@gmail.com> Teraterm on Windows definitely goes to 110 baud. I use it all the time... Rob. On 12/7/2018 10:38 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > Oh good how do you set them to 110 baud? > Rod > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From mosst at SDF.ORG Fri Dec 7 18:20:35 2018 From: mosst at SDF.ORG (Thomas Moss) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 00:20:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP-8/e/f/m Front Panel Knob Wanted (also general information) Message-ID: Hi All, I have a PDP-8/e that's missing the knob on the front panel. Does anyone have a spare for sale, or know of a compatible part? Looking up the DEC parts numbers has turned up nothing but the engineering drawings... I've never seen another one in person so I can't tell if the knob is meant to attach to a shaft on the rotary switch, or if the knob itself is meant to have a shaft. Either way, I'm lacking both, so have been making do with a screw wrapped in tape. Regards, -Tom mosst at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Dec 7 18:39:54 2018 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 19:39:54 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e/f/m Front Panel Knob Wanted (also general information) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37595203-68fb-7550-e0bf-8f17ccba7d91@rickmurphy.net> On 12/7/2018 7:20 PM, Thomas Moss via cctalk wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a PDP-8/e that's missing the knob on the front panel. > Does anyone have a spare for sale, or know of a compatible part? Do you mean the knob that selects which data to display on the panel lights? Got one,? bit dinged up but usable. It's a simple setscrew-attached knob. ??? -Rick From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 18:59:18 2018 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (null) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 16:59:18 -0800 Subject: In search of DOMAIN OS for DN10000/Prism Message-ID: <395BE9D7-5787-4BBE-A4E7-E8A209B29C0B@gmail.com> Please ping me if you have media or archives of any version of domain for the DN10K... Thanks, - I From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 7 19:16:44 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 17:16:44 -0800 Subject: Genrad 2511 Vibration Control System Message-ID: <12e88f17-afda-95bb-2ac8-b4b763684ea8@bitsavers.org> bought this on eBay suspecting it was LSI-11 based because of the floppies labeled DY: https://www.ebay.com/itm//192437124163 It's kinda neat, has a very late (1989) AED WINC-05 disk controller in it, 11/73 and a bunch of custom daq boards. It also has a Dilog Qbus to Unibus converter (didn't even know they made one) and it appears all the custom boards are on the Unibus. I doubt I'll ever find docs for it though. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Dec 7 20:06:23 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 21:06:23 -0500 Subject: will be having some extra brochures for plated memory from Memory systems in El Suguendo Calif. Available soon Message-ID: <1678b90d2dc-1ec3-1cd4@webjas-vab111.srv.aolmail.net> Will be having some extra brochures for plated memory from Memory systems Inc.? in El Segundo Calif. Available soon.? appears? to? be? from month? 4? of? 1973? and? 3? different? ?sheets? both? sides. ? I? know? about? core memory? but this is? something? I never? used.. ? these may be out there already? somewhere? ? ?? ? Ed# ? ? From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Dec 7 20:32:59 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 20:32:59 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5C0B2D5B.4080001@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2018 11:46 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/07/2018 11:38 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: >> Oh good how do you set them to 110 baud? >> > Oh, WOW! Good catch, it only goes down to 300 baud! > major screwup, ought to be reported to the developers. > > Jon > stty can set the speed to 110 with no trouble, so I don't see why it wouldn't be a trivial change to minicom to add the 110 speed to the list. The source should be easily downloaded and patched for this. Jon From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Dec 7 21:01:17 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 03:01:17 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5C0AB187.7070104@pico-systems.com> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB187.7070104@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 07/12/2018 17:44, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/07/2018 11:22 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: >> Indeed, unless you need character pacing. >> >> > Actually, with the correct settings of the serial port (xon/xoff or CTS > pin) the serial port driver should do this, too, so cat would work. A PDP-8/E doesn't have a CTS pin and the loaders don't support XON/XOFF, though. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Dec 7 21:03:31 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 03:03:31 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <07f8d763-07e7-dc11-f435-9cea44197c1a@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/12/2018 17:46, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/07/2018 11:38 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: >> Oh good how do you set them to 110 baud? >> > Oh, WOW!? Good catch, it only goes down to 300 baud!? major screwup, > ought to be reported to the developers. But wouldn't it be better to set the serial card in the PDP-8/E to something faster anyway? Although on one of the serial cards, that requires a crystal change, so though commonly done, may not be practical for Rod. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 7 21:40:01 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 19:40:01 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB187.7070104@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <021f35e6-a944-fe06-b7c0-fe91331dc1a9@sbcglobal.net> On 12/7/2018 7:01 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 07/12/2018 17:44, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/07/2018 11:22 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: >>> Indeed, unless you need character pacing. >>> >>> >> Actually, with the correct settings of the serial port (xon/xoff or >> CTS pin) the serial port driver should do this, too, so cat would work. > > A PDP-8/E doesn't have a CTS pin and the loaders don't support > XON/XOFF, though. > The PDP-8 needs to control the serial CTS function. This was called reader-run when using a Teletype machine. FOCAL won't load without it. You can modify the serial card (mine was an M8655) to support the function. Here's what I did: Cleaned up from Aaron Nabil's and Lyle Bickley's write up. ?Hack the M8655 to support reader-run by mapping it to RS-232 hardware flow control. 1. Cut the trace leading from Pin 1 of E54 (a 7400).? This is the input that clears the Reader Run FF when a new character starts to come in. 2. Jumper from Pin 1/E54 to Pin 3/E38, a spare gate on a 7400 that we are going to use an inverter. 3. Tie Pin 1 and Pin 2 of E38 together, and run them to Pin 20 of E19, the UART. ??? This supplies the signal to the reader-run FF that tells it that it's got an incoming character and to de-assert the reader-run line. ??? Normally this is tied to the current loop receiver, we've just moved it to the UART so any received data will clear the FF. 4. Cut a ground traces on 4 of E50, a 1488 RS-232 transmitter. This is what would normally supply the continuously asserted RTS (and DTR) signal. 5. Jumper from pin 7 of E39, a 7474 flip-flop to pins 4 of E50. E39 is the "reader-run flip-flop".? Now RTS follows the reader run signal. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Dec 7 23:03:38 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 22:03:38 -0700 Subject: Genrad 2511 Vibration Control System In-Reply-To: <12e88f17-afda-95bb-2ac8-b4b763684ea8@bitsavers.org> References: <12e88f17-afda-95bb-2ac8-b4b763684ea8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 7, 2018, 6:16 PM Al Kossow via cctalk bought this on eBay suspecting it was LSI-11 based because of the floppies > labeled DY: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm//192437124163 > > It's kinda neat, has a very late (1989) AED WINC-05 disk controller in it, > 11/73 > and a bunch of custom daq boards. > > It also has a Dilog Qbus to Unibus converter (didn't even know they made > one) > and it appears all the custom boards are on the Unibus. > > I doubt I'll ever find docs for it though. > Total score... Warner > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 23:58:43 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 21:58:43 -0800 Subject: Interesting RK8E fault Message-ID: Hi all -- Finally got all the parts together (and my act together) to actually get an RK05 lashed up to my PDP-8/e -- only took a decade or so :). I fixed a few problems with the RK05 and it appears to be behaving very nicely. The RK8E controller is mostly working properly but fails interestingly when running the formatter, and during the exerciser -- on cylinder 128 and 192 and very infrequently on cylinder 64 it will get a cylinder mismatch when doing the seek. When running the formatter during the verification pass, on cyls 64 and 128 if I retry the read it'll continue without issues, but it's never successful on a retry on cylinder 192. I tried hooking it to the RK05 in my 11/40 and it exhibits the same behavior, so I'm guessing the drive isn't at fault. And the error is consistent across packs (of which I have only two). Apart from that fault the drive and controller seem to work fine -- I wrote out an OS/8 pack with Adventure on it (or at least the first 191 cylinders of it) and it works without issue. Reading the RK8E service docs and schematics, the cylinder address compare is done by reusing the CRC buffer, so I suspect the issue is in or around there -- the big problem is that debugging it is rather painful since that logic is in the middle board of a three board set, with jumper blocks on top -- so bringing it out on an extender isn't an option. I'm curious if anyone's seen this issue or is so very familiar with the logic that the fault is obvious. I suspected the 7496 shift register at E14 which takes in the cylinder address to be compared w/the header on disk, and I went ahead and replaced it in the hopes that I'd get lucky, but no go. Anyone have any advice? Thanks, Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 00:02:11 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 22:02:11 -0800 Subject: Interesting RK8E fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 9:58 PM Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Finally got all the parts together (and my act together) to actually get > an RK05 lashed up to my PDP-8/e -- only took a decade or so :). I fixed a > few problems with the RK05 and it appears to be behaving very nicely. > > The RK8E controller is mostly working properly but fails interestingly > when running the formatter, and during the exerciser -- on cylinder 128 and > 192 and very infrequently on cylinder 64 it will get a cylinder mismatch > when doing the seek. When running the formatter during the verification > pass, on cyls 64 and 128 if I retry the read it'll continue without issues, > but it's never successful on a retry on cylinder 192. I tried hooking it > to the RK05 in my 11/40 and it exhibits the same behavior, so I'm guessing > the drive isn't at fault. And the error is consistent across packs (of > which I have only two). > > Apart from that fault the drive and controller seem to work fine -- I > wrote out an OS/8 pack with Adventure on it (or at least the first 191 > cylinders of it) and it works without issue. > > Reading the RK8E service docs and schematics, the cylinder address compare > is done by reusing the CRC buffer, so I suspect the issue is in or around > there -- the big problem is that debugging it is rather painful since that > logic is in the middle board of a three board set, with jumper blocks on > top -- so bringing it out on an extender isn't an option. I'm curious if > anyone's seen this issue or is so very familiar with the logic that the > fault is obvious. > > I suspected the 7496 shift register at E14 which takes in the cylinder > address to be compared w/the header on disk, and I went ahead and replaced > it in the hopes that I'd get lucky, but no go. > > Anyone have any advice? > > Thanks, > Josh > > I'll add that during the format/verification the drive seeks properly (i.e. it's not missing a step or overstepping), which I've confirmed by watching the thing walk through the tracks with the cover off. - Josh From cube1 at charter.net Fri Dec 7 17:48:43 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 17:48:43 -0600 Subject: IBM SMS Data Capture - IBM 1410 update Message-ID: <48d336c7-0b26-cb2a-654d-f83d0d1e4ebc@charter.net> I have finished the 3rd phase of my IBM 1410 SMS computer reverse-engineering project. The first phase was writing a software machine-cycle simulator - almost 20 years ago, in part to verify I had usable software. The 2nd phase was writing code and setting up a database to do the 3rd phase - capturing data from IBM Automated Logic Diagrams (ALDs). The ALDs comprise 752 pages from 9 of the 11 total volumes of system schematics/engineering drawings, volumes II-X. (Volume I is the power supply and volume XI is additional memory). It took me roughly 375 hours of time (probably more like 450 - not all time was captured) to capture the data into a database that contains 10,565 ALD logic blocks, 1281 "DOT functions" where outputs of gates joined as a "Wired OR", with 4222 distinct signal names appearing as 12,398 entries on the 752 pages, and over 32,700 individual connections. The sheets (as reprints from scanned originals) stacked up are 2" high. The second photo is one of them (with marks I made during data capture) is pictured here. The third photo is a screenshot of that page in the application I developed. (The numbers at the bottom, which do not appear on the original sheet, are a gate number on a given SMS card, the number of inputs to that block, and the number of outputs from the block. The little "A" characters appearing between columns represent "DOT functions." I ran a regression in Excel to estimate the time for capturing a given sheet, which ended up as: Time (in minutes per page) = -7.1 + 1.00 * # ALD blocks on the page (the rectangles) + 0.50 * distinct signals coming from / going to other sheet(s) + 2.24 * # "DOT Functions" on the page + 0.15 * # of connections to/from ALD blocks on the page + 0.39 * # of edge connection locations (at the bottom) Most of the residuals - the difference between the actual value recorded and what the equation would calculate - were under 25%. The "DOT Function" coefficient is probably correlated to the overall complexity of the page - "DOT Functions" themselves were easy to enter. The next step is to clean up some things in the application and tune the database to perform better, at which point I expect to make the application available via some online GIT repository so it can be used for other SMS machines (IBM 1620, IBM 1401, IBM 7000 series and the like). Then it will be on to synthesis of sections of the machine (CPU, memory, console) for which I have drawings and some kind of stand-in for parts I don't have drawings for (1414 I/O Synchronizers, tape drives, etc.). The photos referenced can be found at the public facebook post at: https://www.facebook.com/jay.jaeger.3/posts/2100428726685075 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 8 00:29:14 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 06:29:14 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <07f8d763-07e7-dc11-f435-9cea44197c1a@dunnington.plus.com> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <07f8d763-07e7-dc11-f435-9cea44197c1a@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5B0550EE11C93AB4@rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) It can only do 110 baud !! Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Pete Turnbull via cctalk Sent: 08 December 2018 03:15 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PDP-8/e On 07/12/2018 17:46, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/07/2018 11:38 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: >> Oh good how do you set them to 110 baud? >> > Oh, WOW!? Good catch, it only goes down to 300 baud!? major screwup, > ought to be reported to the developers. But wouldn't it be better to set the serial card in the PDP-8/E to something faster anyway? Although on one of the serial cards, that requires a crystal change, so though commonly done, may not be practical for Rod. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 00:35:52 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 22:35:52 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5c0b64c2.1c69fb81.d73ef.fa6eSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <07f8d763-07e7-dc11-f435-9cea44197c1a@dunnington.plus.com> <5c0b64c2.1c69fb81.d73ef.fa6eSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 10:29 PM Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > It can only do 110 baud !! > Unless you have an oddball SLU, this is not true -- what do you have installed? The earlier M8650 and the later M8655 can both be jumpered for higher baud rates. - Josh > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Pete Turnbull via cctalk > Sent: 08 December 2018 03:15 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-8/e > > On 07/12/2018 17:46, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/07/2018 11:38 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > >> Oh good how do you set them to 110 baud? > >> > > Oh, WOW! Good catch, it only goes down to 300 baud! major screwup, > > ought to be reported to the developers. > > But wouldn't it be better to set the serial card in the PDP-8/E to > something faster anyway? Although on one of the serial cards, that > requires a crystal change, so though commonly done, may not be practical > for Rod. > > -- > Pete > Pete Turnbull > > From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 00:38:13 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 00:38:13 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <07f8d763-07e7-dc11-f435-9cea44197c1a@dunnington.plus.com> <5c0b64c2.1c69fb81.d73ef.fa6eSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 12:36 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 10:29 PM Rod G8DGR via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > It can only do 110 baud !! > > > > Unless you have an oddball SLU, this is not true -- what do you have > installed? The earlier M8650 and the later M8655 can both be jumpered for > higher baud rates. > Maybe an M865? I don't remember if those have jumpers or not. I seem to recall it being current loop only, though. Kyle From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 8 01:10:44 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 07:10:44 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <021f35e6-a944-fe06-b7c0-fe91331dc1a9@sbcglobal.net> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB187.7070104@pico-systems.com> <021f35e6-a944-fe06-b7c0-fe91331dc1a9@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5BF4386801A4C510@rgout07.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) I?m sure that would work but I only have an 8650 110 baud only card Rod Sent from Mail for Windows 110 baud From: Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk Sent: 08 December 2018 03:41 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PDP-8/e On 12/7/2018 7:01 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 07/12/2018 17:44, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/07/2018 11:22 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: >>> Indeed, unless you need character pacing. >>> >>> >> Actually, with the correct settings of the serial port (xon/xoff or >> CTS pin) the serial port driver should do this, too, so cat would work. > > A PDP-8/E doesn't have a CTS pin and the loaders don't support > XON/XOFF, though. > The PDP-8 needs to control the serial CTS function. This was called reader-run when using a Teletype machine. FOCAL won't load without it. You can modify the serial card (mine was an M8655) to support the function. Here's what I did: Cleaned up from Aaron Nabil's and Lyle Bickley's write up. ?Hack the M8655 to support reader-run by mapping it to RS-232 hardware flow control. 1. Cut the trace leading from Pin 1 of E54 (a 7400).? This is the input that clears the Reader Run FF when a new character starts to come in. 2. Jumper from Pin 1/E54 to Pin 3/E38, a spare gate on a 7400 that we are going to use an inverter. 3. Tie Pin 1 and Pin 2 of E38 together, and run them to Pin 20 of E19, the UART. ??? This supplies the signal to the reader-run FF that tells it that it's got an incoming character and to de-assert the reader-run line. ??? Normally this is tied to the current loop receiver, we've just moved it to the UART so any received data will clear the FF. 4. Cut a ground traces on 4 of E50, a 1488 RS-232 transmitter. This is what would normally supply the continuously asserted RTS (and DTR) signal. 5. Jumper from pin 7 of E39, a 7474 flip-flop to pins 4 of E50. E39 is the "reader-run flip-flop".? Now RTS follows the reader run signal. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 01:21:33 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 23:21:33 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5c0b6e81.1c69fb81.eee6.161bSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB187.7070104@pico-systems.com> <021f35e6-a944-fe06-b7c0-fe91331dc1a9@sbcglobal.net> <5c0b6e81.1c69fb81.eee6.161bSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 11:10 PM Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > I?m sure that would work but I only have an 8650 110 baud only card > Rod > The M8650 does a wide variety of baud rates. See here: https://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/hard8e/kl8e.html - Josh > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 110 baud > > From: Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk > Sent: 08 December 2018 03:41 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-8/e > > On 12/7/2018 7:01 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > > On 07/12/2018 17:44, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> On 12/07/2018 11:22 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > >>> Indeed, unless you need character pacing. > >>> > >>> > >> Actually, with the correct settings of the serial port (xon/xoff or > >> CTS pin) the serial port driver should do this, too, so cat would work. > > > > A PDP-8/E doesn't have a CTS pin and the loaders don't support > > XON/XOFF, though. > > > The PDP-8 needs to control the serial CTS function. This was called > reader-run when using a Teletype machine. FOCAL won't load without it. > You can modify the serial card (mine was an M8655) to support the > function. Here's what I did: > > Cleaned up from Aaron Nabil's and Lyle Bickley's write up. > > Hack the M8655 to support reader-run by mapping it to RS-232 hardware > flow control. > > 1. Cut the trace leading from Pin 1 of E54 (a 7400). This is the input > that clears the Reader Run FF when a new character starts to come in. > > 2. Jumper from Pin 1/E54 to Pin 3/E38, a spare gate on a 7400 that we > are going to use an inverter. > > 3. Tie Pin 1 and Pin 2 of E38 together, and run them to Pin 20 of E19, > the UART. > This supplies the signal to the reader-run FF that tells it that > it's got an incoming character and to de-assert the reader-run line. > Normally this is tied to the current loop receiver, we've just > moved it to the UART so any received data will clear the FF. > > 4. Cut a ground traces on 4 of E50, a 1488 RS-232 transmitter. This is > what would normally supply the continuously asserted RTS (and DTR) signal. > > 5. Jumper from pin 7 of E39, a 7474 flip-flop to pins 4 of E50. E39 is > the "reader-run flip-flop". Now RTS follows the reader run signal. > > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 8 03:55:31 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 09:55:31 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <07f8d763-07e7-dc11-f435-9cea44197c1a@dunnington.plus.com> <5c0b64c2.1c69fb81.d73ef.fa6eSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5B93D594084924CE@rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Nice try Josh - close ? you have to change the crystal first and you can?t get them. Rod Smallwood - Digital Equipment Corporation 1975 ? 1985 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Josh Dersch via cctalk Sent: 08 December 2018 06:36 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-8/e On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 10:29 PM Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > It can only do 110 baud !! > Unless you have an oddball SLU, this is not true -- what do you have installed? The earlier M8650 and the later M8655 can both be jumpered for higher baud rates. - Josh > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Pete Turnbull via cctalk > Sent: 08 December 2018 03:15 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-8/e > > On 07/12/2018 17:46, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/07/2018 11:38 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > >> Oh good how do you set them to 110 baud? > >> > > Oh, WOW! Good catch, it only goes down to 300 baud! major screwup, > > ought to be reported to the developers. > > But wouldn't it be better to set the serial card in the PDP-8/E to > something faster anyway? Although on one of the serial cards, that > requires a crystal change, so though commonly done, may not be practical > for Rod. > > -- > Pete > Pete Turnbull > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 8 05:09:34 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 03:09:34 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5B93D594084924CE@rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <07f8d763-07e7-dc11-f435-9cea44197c1a@dunnington.plus.com> <5c0b64c2.1c69fb81.d73ef.fa6eSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <5B93D594084924CE@rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: <0d66d303-8a6b-2b7e-9e93-a5ba56e6f015@bitsavers.org> On 12/8/18 1:55 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > Nice try Josh - close ? you have to change the crystal first and you can?t get them. Dead bug a programmable epson ttl oscillator module, available from digikey From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Dec 8 05:28:18 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 11:28:18 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5B93D594084924CE@rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <07f8d763-07e7-dc11-f435-9cea44197c1a@dunnington.plus.com> <5c0b64c2.1c69fb81.d73ef.fa6eSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <5B93D594084924CE@rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: <329d6c5f-117f-ee8d-8f1f-b9ae1f1224e4@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/12/2018 09:55, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > Nice try Josh - close ? you have to change the crystal first and you can?t get them. Both Farnell and Mouser UK have suitable crystals. They don't have to be the same physical size. I've changed several. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 8 05:52:11 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 11:52:11 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/ update Message-ID: <5BC47A8704E49546@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Well I got there in the end. HyperTerm on an old DEC Celebris running W95 Thanks for all the input Now to move some diags. over and see if we can load them Rod Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 08:42:46 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 09:42:46 -0500 Subject: Interesting RK8E fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 8, 2018, 1:02 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 9:58 PM Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Hi all -- > > > > Finally got all the parts together (and my act together) to actually get > > an RK05 lashed up to my PDP-8/e -- only took a decade or so :). I fixed > a > > few problems with the RK05 and it appears to be behaving very nicely. > > > > The RK8E controller is mostly working properly but fails interestingly > > when running the formatter, and during the exerciser -- on cylinder 128 > and > > 192 and very infrequently on cylinder 64 it will get a cylinder mismatch > > when doing the seek. When running the formatter during the verification > > pass, on cyls 64 and 128 if I retry the read it'll continue without > issues, > > but it's never successful on a retry on cylinder 192. I tried hooking it > > to the RK05 in my 11/40 and it exhibits the same behavior, so I'm > guessing > > the drive isn't at fault. And the error is consistent across packs (of > > which I have only two). > > > > Apart from that fault the drive and controller seem to work fine -- I > > wrote out an OS/8 pack with Adventure on it (or at least the first 191 > > cylinders of it) and it works without issue. > > > > Reading the RK8E service docs and schematics, the cylinder address > compare > > is done by reusing the CRC buffer, so I suspect the issue is in or around > > there -- the big problem is that debugging it is rather painful since > that > > logic is in the middle board of a three board set, with jumper blocks on > > top -- so bringing it out on an extender isn't an option. I'm curious if > > anyone's seen this issue or is so very familiar with the logic that the > > fault is obvious. > > > > I suspected the 7496 shift register at E14 which takes in the cylinder > > address to be compared w/the header on disk, and I went ahead and > replaced > > it in the hopes that I'd get lucky, but no go. > > > > Anyone have any advice? > > > > Thanks, > > Josh > > > > > I'll add that during the format/verification the drive seeks properly (i.e. > it's not missing a step or overstepping), which I've confirmed by watching > the thing walk through the tracks with the cover off. > > - Josh > Partitions as rka0 / rka1? B > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Dec 8 08:53:53 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 08:53:53 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5BF4386801A4C510@rgout07.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB187.7070104@pico-systems.com> <021f35e6-a944-fe06-b7c0-fe91331dc1a9@sbcglobal.net> <5BF4386801A4C510@rgout07.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: <368299e3-cf27-7bae-b3e4-275689f9fbfb@charter.net> I did that sort of thing for my PDP-8/L, where the reader run drove the RS-232 "CTS" control signal and wrote a "C" program to do simple TTY emulation in DeSmet C back in the day. That code would not run in Windows of course, but it wouldn't be all that difficult for someone with a C programming background to move it to Windows under gnucc, or even Microsoft C++ or C#. On 12/8/2018 1:10 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > I?m sure that would work but I only have an 8650 110 baud only card > Rod > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 110 baud > > From: Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk > Sent: 08 December 2018 03:41 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-8/e > > On 12/7/2018 7:01 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >> On 07/12/2018 17:44, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> On 12/07/2018 11:22 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: >>>> Indeed, unless you need character pacing. >>>> >>>> >>> Actually, with the correct settings of the serial port (xon/xoff or >>> CTS pin) the serial port driver should do this, too, so cat would work. >> >> A PDP-8/E doesn't have a CTS pin and the loaders don't support >> XON/XOFF, though. >> > The PDP-8 needs to control the serial CTS function. This was called > reader-run when using a Teletype machine. FOCAL won't load without it. > You can modify the serial card (mine was an M8655) to support the > function. Here's what I did: > > Cleaned up from Aaron Nabil's and Lyle Bickley's write up. > > ?Hack the M8655 to support reader-run by mapping it to RS-232 hardware > flow control. > > 1. Cut the trace leading from Pin 1 of E54 (a 7400).? This is the input > that clears the Reader Run FF when a new character starts to come in. > > 2. Jumper from Pin 1/E54 to Pin 3/E38, a spare gate on a 7400 that we > are going to use an inverter. > > 3. Tie Pin 1 and Pin 2 of E38 together, and run them to Pin 20 of E19, > the UART. > ??? This supplies the signal to the reader-run FF that tells it that > it's got an incoming character and to de-assert the reader-run line. > ??? Normally this is tied to the current loop receiver, we've just > moved it to the UART so any received data will clear the FF. > > 4. Cut a ground traces on 4 of E50, a 1488 RS-232 transmitter. This is > what would normally supply the continuously asserted RTS (and DTR) signal. > > 5. Jumper from pin 7 of E39, a 7474 flip-flop to pins 4 of E50. E39 is > the "reader-run flip-flop".? Now RTS follows the reader run signal. > > Bob > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 09:00:48 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 10:00:48 -0500 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 7, 2018, 6:09 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > someone should get the source off him and put it out on the web > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 4:34 PM Mattis Lind via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Den fre 7 dec. 2018 kl 23:04 skrev Al Kossow via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/7/18 1:25 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > > > Anyone has old DECUS distributions? > > > > > > For all intents and purposes, no > > > > > > DECUS threw them out. > > > > > > > Sad. > > > > > > > > About the only thing that survives are the titles that > > > were included on some of the SIG tapes. > > > > > > Working on gathering what parts still survive in individual > > > collections would be a good thing, but I'm not holding my > > > breath for it to happen. > > > > > > > I will check the labels of all the RL01, RL02, RK05 and RK07 packs I have > > to see if there happens to be any DECUS material on them. > > > > However I found one Bill Seiler in Santa Cruz that is very likely to be > the > > very Bill Seiler that wrote the original SPACE WAR for PDP-11. Since he > at > > least had the source in 2006 it might be so that he still has it? > > > I have at least one rk05 with decus material but I have not yet completed the install/restoration of the drive and controller I have for my pdp 11/05 or 11/40 to run and read the disks I have on hand. Who is the closest person to Philadelphia with a working pdp 11 and rk05 drive, the LSSM in Pittsburgh perhaps? I can take to Dave tonseenif he is willing to read in my 30 or so rk05 disks next time I visit there....or if anyone with more experience than I would like to pop over to assist me for an afternoon to get it running, please contact me via my web site. I'd be willing to trade a pack or two for the help. I have working rk05s on my pdp8e that we can borrow if need be so I am pretty sure soon enough I'll have success. Part of my delay has been the fact that on my 11s I run rl02s dont need rk05s. Bill > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Dec 8 09:10:09 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 15:10:09 +0000 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/8/18 10:00 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018, 6:09 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> someone should get the source off him and put it out on the web >> >> On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 4:34 PM Mattis Lind via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Den fre 7 dec. 2018 kl 23:04 skrev Al Kossow via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org>: >>> >>>> >>>> On 12/7/18 1:25 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Anyone has old DECUS distributions? >>>> For all intents and purposes, no >>>> >>>> DECUS threw them out. >>>> >>> Sad. >>> >>>> About the only thing that survives are the titles that >>>> were included on some of the SIG tapes. >>>> >>>> Working on gathering what parts still survive in individual >>>> collections would be a good thing, but I'm not holding my >>>> breath for it to happen. >>>> >>> I will check the labels of all the RL01, RL02, RK05 and RK07 packs I have >>> to see if there happens to be any DECUS material on them. >>> >>> However I found one Bill Seiler in Santa Cruz that is very likely to be >> the >>> very Bill Seiler that wrote the original SPACE WAR for PDP-11. Since he >> at >>> least had the source in 2006 it might be so that he still has it? >>> > I have at least one rk05 with decus material but I have not yet completed > the install/restoration of the drive and controller I have for my pdp 11/05 > or 11/40 to run and read the disks I have on hand. > > Who is the closest person to Philadelphia with a working pdp 11 and rk05 > drive, the LSSM in Pittsburgh perhaps? I can take to Dave tonseenif he is > willing to read in my 30 or so rk05 disks next time I visit there....or if > anyone with more experience than I would like to pop over to assist me for > an afternoon to get it running, please contact me via my web site. I'd be > willing to trade a pack or two for the help. I have working rk05s on my > pdp8e that we can borrow if need be so I am pretty sure soon enough I'll > have success. Part of my delay has been the fact that on my 11s I run > rl02s dont need rk05s. > Bill As long as we're talking about old PDP-11 DECUS stuff I am still looking for a copy of: 11S042?????? Symposium Tape from the RSTS SIG, Spring 1980, Chicago Version: Spring 1980 Of course, I would be interested in pretty much anything from the RSTS SIG but this is? my holy grail.? :-) bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 8 09:31:30 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 10:31:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-8/e Message-ID: <20181208153130.B3CA418C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jay Jaeger > That code would not run in Windows of course, but it wouldn't be all > that difficult for someone with a C programming background to move it > to Windows under gnucc, or even Microsoft C++ or C#. I highly recommend CygWin (which comes with 'gnucc) for doing C stuff under Windoze: https://www.cygwin.com/ Most Unix/Linux code just compiles and runs under it; modulo stuff that uses things that are so Unix/Linux specific that there's no Windows equivalent, but that's not much - fork() is even there. If you already know Unix/Linux, it makes for a very low-learning-curve transition. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 8 10:16:42 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 08:16:42 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> On 12/8/18 7:10 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > As long as we're talking about old PDP-11 DECUS stuff I > > am still looking for a copy of: > > 11S042?????? Symposium Tape from the RSTS SIG, Spring 1980, > > Chicago Version: Spring 1980 > > > Of course, I would be interested in pretty much anything from > > the RSTS SIG but this is? my holy grail.? :-) > > > bill > > Maybe I can talk Josh at LCM+L to work on a joint project in 2019 to see what DECUS submissions they and CHM have. I know Lyle would really like me to read his DECUS PDP-12 DECtapes and I really should better organize what is in bitsavers.org/bits/DEC. I probably makes sense to break out the DECUS library there. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Dec 8 10:26:43 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 16:26:43 +0000 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/8/18 11:16 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/8/18 7:10 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> As long as we're talking about old PDP-11 DECUS stuff I >> >> am still looking for a copy of: >> >> 11S042?????? Symposium Tape from the RSTS SIG, Spring 1980, >> >> Chicago Version: Spring 1980 >> >> >> Of course, I would be interested in pretty much anything from >> >> the RSTS SIG but this is? my holy grail.? :-) >> >> >> bill >> >> > Maybe I can talk Josh at LCM+L to work on a joint project in 2019 to > see what DECUS submissions they and CHM have. > > I know Lyle would really like me to read his DECUS > PDP-12 DECtapes and I really should better organize > what is in bitsavers.org/bits/DEC. I probably makes > sense to break out the DECUS library there. Would be nice to save what of this can still be recovered. It was disturbing to hear DECUS threw stuff out, but not surprising.? I know of other such actions.? Stuff Dennis Ritchie donated to a former East Coast Computer Museum was discarded and I also know of stuff given to USENIX that they tossed (luckily some of that has been recovered but I am sure much was lost permanently). bill From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 8 11:22:30 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 09:22:30 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6a8aca47-de69-d8b3-ca82-615d47f3d4de@bitsavers.org> On 12/8/18 8:26 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > I also know of stuff given to USENIX > that they tossed (luckily some of that has been recovered > but I am sure much was lost permanently). Paper or USENIX tapes? The early tapes are problematic because they required source licenses From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Dec 8 11:30:47 2018 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 09:30:47 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20181208093047.7670672e@asrock> On Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:04:52 -0800 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 12/7/18 1:25 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone has old DECUS distributions? > > For all intents and purposes, no > > DECUS threw them out. Not true for PDP-8 and PDP-12 DECUS. I was the last PDP-12 Coordinator for DECUS - which included all the PDP-8 DECUS as well as the specific PDP-12 DECUS software. I kept it all - and donated it in it's entirety to the Computer History Museum (CHM) years ago. The collection also included the MASTER source code for the DIAL operating system for the PDP-12 - as DEC wanted "someone" to have it rather than throw it out when they were closing out their archives. The only thing I retained from my DECUS activities is the DECUS "money" that we (DECUS) gave out for "change" when someone overpaid for an item ;) The DECUS "money" could only be spent for future software purchases from DECUS. BTW: The fees were copying fees which included media costs, etc. One didn't pay for the DECUS software itself. I hope that the CHM will make the libraries available to the public - which was my intent in donating them to the CHM in the first place. Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 8 11:34:42 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 09:34:42 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: <20181208093047.7670672e@asrock> References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <20181208093047.7670672e@asrock> Message-ID: <1cb42374-74c0-5241-125e-b327399c0cad@bitsavers.org> On 12/8/18 9:30 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:04:52 -0800 > Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> On 12/7/18 1:25 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >>> Anyone has old DECUS distributions? >> >> For all intents and purposes, no >> >> DECUS threw them out. > > Not true It IS true for the PDP-11 library. I should have been more specific. From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 11:43:32 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 09:43:32 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5c0b9515.1c69fb81.be063.978aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AA46D.4020802@pico-systems.com> <5B449A770D722F87@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB1FD.1020708@pico-systems.com> <07f8d763-07e7-dc11-f435-9cea44197c1a@dunnington.plus.com> <5c0b64c2.1c69fb81.d73ef.fa6eSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <5c0b9515.1c69fb81.be063.978aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 1:55 AM Rod G8DGR wrote: > Nice try Josh - close ? you have to change the crystal first and you > can?t get them. > https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ABRACON/AB-196608MHZ-B2?qs=sGAEpiMZZMukHu%252bjC5l7YUoOOqNWuembrOT4XjNGTzc%3d > > > Rod Smallwood - Digital Equipment Corporation 1975 ? 1985 > > > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > > *From: *Josh Dersch via cctalk > *Sent: *08 December 2018 06:36 > *To: *General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > *Subject: *Re: PDP-8/e > > > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 10:29 PM Rod G8DGR via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > > > It can only do 110 baud !! > > > > > > > Unless you have an oddball SLU, this is not true -- what do you have > > installed? The earlier M8650 and the later M8655 can both be jumpered for > > higher baud rates. > > > > - Josh > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > > > From: Pete Turnbull via cctalk > > > Sent: 08 December 2018 03:15 > > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: Re: PDP-8/e > > > > > > On 07/12/2018 17:46, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 12/07/2018 11:38 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Oh good how do you set them to 110 baud? > > > >> > > > > Oh, WOW! Good catch, it only goes down to 300 baud! major screwup, > > > > ought to be reported to the developers. > > > > > > But wouldn't it be better to set the serial card in the PDP-8/E to > > > something faster anyway? Although on one of the serial cards, that > > > requires a crystal change, so though commonly done, may not be practical > > > for Rod. > > > > > > -- > > > Pete > > > Pete Turnbull > > > > > > > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 11:45:37 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 09:45:37 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 8:29 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/8/18 7:10 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > As long as we're talking about old PDP-11 DECUS stuff I > > > > am still looking for a copy of: > > > > 11S042 Symposium Tape from the RSTS SIG, Spring 1980, > > > > Chicago Version: Spring 1980 > > > > > > Of course, I would be interested in pretty much anything from > > > > the RSTS SIG but this is my holy grail. :-) > > > > > > bill > > > > > > Maybe I can talk Josh at LCM+L to work on a joint project in 2019 to > see what DECUS submissions they and CHM have. > Sounds like a great project, I'd be happy to help out. - Josh > > I know Lyle would really like me to read his DECUS > PDP-12 DECtapes and I really should better organize > what is in bitsavers.org/bits/DEC. I probably makes > sense to break out the DECUS library there. > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 8 11:49:49 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 09:49:49 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> On 12/8/18 9:45 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Sounds like a great project, I'd be happy to help out. cool I also just noticed http://decuslib.com isn't responding The anonymous ftp still works, but doesn't have the zip files on it. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Dec 8 11:50:44 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 17:50:44 +0000 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: <6a8aca47-de69-d8b3-ca82-615d47f3d4de@bitsavers.org> References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <6a8aca47-de69-d8b3-ca82-615d47f3d4de@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/8/18 12:22 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/8/18 8:26 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> I also know of stuff given to USENIX >> that they tossed (luckily some of that has been recovered >> but I am sure much was lost permanently). > Paper or USENIX tapes? > > The early tapes are problematic because they required source licenses What I know about first-hand was all the research on The Software Tools Virtual Operating System.? I had worked with it? on Pr1me and Univac-1100 back in the 80's.? I got interested in it again and started searching for it.? Could not find anything but was able to get in touch with Deborah Scherrer who was one of the primaries on the research and she informed me that she had sent all her work to USENIX who held it a few years and then just trashed? it.? I have since found some of it, but places that had done the ports (GA Tech for the Pr1me.) had also just scrapped it all when it was no longer of interest. Truly sad how much of our history has been lost. bill From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 12:10:45 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 12:10:45 -0600 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: how big were the decus confrinces back in the day? From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Dec 8 12:12:04 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 11:12:04 -0700 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 11:11 AM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > how big were the decus confrinces back in the day? > The one I went to in 89 had hundreds.... Warner From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 8 12:13:58 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 10:13:58 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <6a8aca47-de69-d8b3-ca82-615d47f3d4de@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/8/18 9:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > What I know about first-hand was all the research on The > > Software Tools Virtual Operating System.? I had worked with > > it? on Pr1me and Univac-1100 back in the 80's.? I got interested > > in it again and started searching for it.? Could not find anything > > but was able to get in touch with Deborah Scherrer who was > > one of the primaries on the research and she informed me that > > she had sent all her work to USENIX who held it a few years > > and then just trashed? it.? I have since found some of it, but > > places that had done the ports (GA Tech for the Pr1me.) had > > also just scrapped it all when it was no longer of interest. > > Truly sad how much of our history has been lost. > > > bill > > I chased that same windmill a few years ago including talking to Deborah. I turned up some tapes of code from LBL (same as the Structured Languages tape) but I've never found anything for Pr1me From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 8 12:18:37 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 10:18:37 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> The DECUS conference proceedings I've scanned gives attendance DECUS membership 1961-1972 1961 12 1962 25 1963 43 1964 202 1965 426 1966 850 1967 2008 1968 3476 1969 6054 1970 9110 1971 12213 - 5590 installation delegates, 6623 individual members. 1972 15295 - 7052 8243 This is only up through the start of the PDP-11, it obviously got MUCH bigger after that. There were also large LUGs (Local Interest Groups) The ones in Milwaukee and Chicago were pretty big. On 12/8/18 10:10 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > how big were the decus confrinces back in the day? From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Dec 8 12:19:28 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:19:28 +0000 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <6a8aca47-de69-d8b3-ca82-615d47f3d4de@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/8/18 1:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/8/18 9:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> What I know about first-hand was all the research on The >> >> Software Tools Virtual Operating System.? I had worked with >> >> it? on Pr1me and Univac-1100 back in the 80's.? I got interested >> >> in it again and started searching for it.? Could not find anything >> >> but was able to get in touch with Deborah Scherrer who was >> >> one of the primaries on the research and she informed me that >> >> she had sent all her work to USENIX who held it a few years >> >> and then just trashed? it.? I have since found some of it, but >> >> places that had done the ports (GA Tech for the Pr1me.) had >> >> also just scrapped it all when it was no longer of interest. >> >> Truly sad how much of our history has been lost. >> >> >> bill >> >> > I chased that same windmill a few years ago including talking to Deborah. > I turned up some tapes of code from LBL (same as the Structured Languages tape) but I've never > found anything for Pr1me Do they include the sources?? Are they up on bitsavers anywhere? My reason for looking for Pr1me was that they were one of the most complete at the time I was working with it.?? I would love to get a full set of later sources and revive it just for fun.? Nobody seems to realize that they had accomplished POSIX long before the concept was even given thought. I see it as being just like UCSD-Pascal.? An idea ahead of its time that got dropped only to be reinvented decades later. bill From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 8 12:20:16 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 10:20:16 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/8/18 10:18 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > The DECUS conference proceedings I've scanned > gives attendance arg.. membership attendance would have been much smaller From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Dec 8 12:24:24 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:24:24 +0000 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/8/18 1:18 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > The DECUS conference proceedings I've scanned > gives attendance > > DECUS membership 1961-1972 > > 1961 12 > 1962 25 > 1963 43 > 1964 202 > 1965 426 > 1966 850 > 1967 2008 > 1968 3476 > 1969 6054 > 1970 9110 > 1971 12213 - 5590 installation delegates, 6623 individual members. > 1972 15295 - 7052 8243 > > This is only up through the start of the PDP-11, it obviously got > MUCH bigger after that. > > There were also large LUGs (Local Interest Groups) > The ones in Milwaukee and Chicago were pretty big. > > On 12/8/18 10:10 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> how big were the decus confrinces back in the day? I don't know if it reflects an actual count, but before Compaq changed the DECUS Membership # to an alphabetic jumble taken from your name my original DECUS Membership # was 368513.? Don't remember what year? but it was likely mid 80's. bill From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 8 12:29:05 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 10:29:05 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <6a8aca47-de69-d8b3-ca82-615d47f3d4de@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0043d14f-9872-f1ff-6e50-b27b312dc497@bitsavers.org> On 12/8/18 10:19 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Do they include the sources?? Are they up on bitsavers anywhere? Not currently, what I have is what was released on the Languages and Tools SIG tape in RATFOR I'll put the tape images I have up as soon as I can find them. I'm trying to find my Glen Everhart RSX .TPC images right now I also just fixed a couple of CHM DECUS paper tape catalog entries for the PDP-1 and PDP-8 so they are correctly identified as such. ========> [VMSLT02B.GCE]AAAREADME.TXT;2 <======== Stuff for Fall 2002 ========> [VMSLT02B.LTSIG]AAAREADME.TXT;1 <======== LT Sig 1987-88 This directory contains the Languages and Tools SIG material from the 1987-88 sigtape they put out which has been difficult to find. Included is the last edition of the LBL Software Tools as released for VMS, plus a few other interesting items which appeared at that time. While this material is not known specifically to work in Alpha (it predates the Alpha by a few years) it is written in very portable Ratfor and many of the tools will probably "just work". Presented here to help ensure it is not forgotten. --- you'll have to pull this off IA or go through the annon ftp, since http://decuslib.com is down From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 8 12:31:55 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 10:31:55 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <74997740-4380-75e2-d34b-621188f0246f@bitsavers.org> On 12/8/18 10:24 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > my original DECUS Membership # was > > 368513.? Don't remember what year? but it was likely mid 80's. I just took my card out of my wallet last year. 113104, late 70s From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 8 13:09:40 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2018 13:09:40 -0600 Subject: IBM SMS Data Capture - IBM 1410 update In-Reply-To: <48d336c7-0b26-cb2a-654d-f83d0d1e4ebc@charter.net> References: <48d336c7-0b26-cb2a-654d-f83d0d1e4ebc@charter.net> Message-ID: <5C0C16F4.9030008@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2018 05:48 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > I have finished the 3rd phase of my IBM 1410 SMS computer > reverse-engineering project. WOW, absolutely mind-blowing! Thanks for putting in this huge effort! Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 8 13:12:49 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2018 13:12:49 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5C0AB187.7070104@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5C0C17B1.8030906@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2018 09:01 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 07/12/2018 17:44, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/07/2018 11:22 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: >>> Indeed, unless you need character pacing. >>> >>> >> Actually, with the correct settings of the serial port >> (xon/xoff or CTS pin) the serial port driver should do >> this, too, so cat would work. > > A PDP-8/E doesn't have a CTS pin and the loaders don't > support XON/XOFF, though. > I remember loading paper tapes into a PDP-8, and the reader would stutter, so I think there was some sort of signal from the serial interface board to control the reader. It would not be done with xon/xoff or CTS, as these were NOT RS-232 interfaces, but current loop. But, at least some people are doing this with software-emulated PDP-8s, so that was sort of what I was thinking of. Jon From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Sat Dec 8 13:29:16 2018 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 19:29:16 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) References: <5BC47A8704CB34C5@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: I have used Access Port on Win. Lot easier than TeraTerm and also supports 110 Baud. http://www.sudt.com/en/index.html [http://www.sudt.com/images/sn_en_230x160.gif1zB] SUDT.com SUDT SerialNull 1.7: SerialNull is a professional Serial Port Simulator, which purpose is to emulate RS232 serial ports connected via virtual null-modem cable using SerialNull.. Virtual Serial Ports are absolutely the same copies of real ones; Real serial ports are not occupied www.sudt.com - Johannes Thelen Finland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Rod G8DGR via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 7, 2018 11:59 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: PDP-8/e Hi All Seasons Greetings.. My PDP-8/e was long due for a major overhaul. 1. So everything out 2. Big Hoover job on the Omnibus 3. Bring up on Variac ? No smoke 4. Check PSU volts. ? All OK 5. Power off 6. Install minimal System ? Front Panel, Three CPU cards, RFI shield, 4k Core and Bus term. 7. Yup all looks in right order 8. Power on 9. Toggle in standard AC count up program 10. Clear + Cont 11. And they are racing at Rockingham!! 12. Yup counts up just like it should. 13. Let it run for a while. 14. All stop. 15. PSU off 16. Inset Async Card (Its 110 baud only) 17. Fire up VT100. Beep - yup its alive. 18. Toggle in keyboard echo test. 19. Clear + Cont ? Program runs 20. And .. yes keyboard gets echoed back. OK now I need a little help. Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the reader on an ASR33? I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have long forgotten My PDP-8 course completion certificate is dated November 1975. Rod Smallwood Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Dec 8 14:10:05 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 15:10:05 -0500 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1b917359-aa1d-66d2-68b0-6298688e6fcd@e-bbes.com> On 2018-12-08 13:24, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > name my original DECUS Membership # was > > 368513.? Don't remember what year? but it was likely mid 80's. WOW, we were close, mine is 364059 ;-) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 14:44:46 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 14:44:46 -0600 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: <1b917359-aa1d-66d2-68b0-6298688e6fcd@e-bbes.com> References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> <1b917359-aa1d-66d2-68b0-6298688e6fcd@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: were the decus confrinces ever held in multi level parking garages? keep hearing a story of one that was so big it took over one. door prize was a rainbow 100 my dad won in 79 80?? tells me he got a membership when he was a teen i the early 70's after hanging out with the nasa guys in the 60's in town who used to run experiments up in northern manitoba On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 2:10 PM emanuel stiebler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2018-12-08 13:24, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > name my original DECUS Membership # was > > > > 368513. Don't remember what year but it was likely mid 80's. > > WOW, we were close, mine is 364059 > > ;-) > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 8 14:47:20 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 15:47:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM SMS Data Capture - IBM 1410 update Message-ID: <20181208204720.45DD518C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jay Jaeger > I have finished the 3rd phase of my IBM 1410 SMS computer > reverse-engineering project. ... The ALDs comprise 752 pages from 9 of > the 11 total volumes of system schematics/engineering drawings ... It > took me roughly 375 hours of time (probably more like 450 - not all time > was captured) to capture the data into a database Wow. I am super impressed. My hat is off... Fantastic job! Noel From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sat Dec 8 08:46:45 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2018 15:46:45 +0100 Subject: SunOS 2.4 Expliot (Re: Old Sparcstations In-Reply-To: References: <1de6316af3ddb1ddebbf964fb000d8305c8056c0.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6089201D-36CD-4DCF-BFA0-95071D08162A@vmssoftware.com> Yes, boot -s should have worked; also, once you have access to the passwd file by mounting the disk on a different system, you could just edit the file to remove the root password. ?On 12/7/18, 4:20 AM, "cctech on behalf of Frank McConnell via cctech" wrote: On Dec 6, 2018, at 10:39, Jeffrey S. Worley wrote: > The Sparcstation 4/330 I reworked the NVRAM chip on?. > I wanted root. Was there something in the way of you booting single-user? I am thinking Suns of that era let you into a boot ROM (via BREAK on serial console, or L1+A on Sun keyboard and framebuffer console) from which you could enter a command like "boot -s? which would boot to a single-user shell. And physical console access is a good place to start for the win. It is less effective than it once was, but remains a good first choice. -Frank McConnell From cramcram at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 10:37:00 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 08:37:00 -0800 Subject: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: When did the DECUS purge occur? Marc On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 8:26 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 12/8/18 11:16 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 12/8/18 7:10 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > >> As long as we're talking about old PDP-11 DECUS stuff I > >> > >> am still looking for a copy of: > >> > >> 11S042 Symposium Tape from the RSTS SIG, Spring 1980, > >> > >> Chicago Version: Spring 1980 > >> > >> > >> Of course, I would be interested in pretty much anything from > >> > >> the RSTS SIG but this is my holy grail. :-) > >> > >> > >> bill > >> > >> > > Maybe I can talk Josh at LCM+L to work on a joint project in 2019 to > > see what DECUS submissions they and CHM have. > > > > I know Lyle would really like me to read his DECUS > > PDP-12 DECtapes and I really should better organize > > what is in bitsavers.org/bits/DEC. I probably makes > > sense to break out the DECUS library there. > > > Would be nice to save what of this can still be recovered. > > It was disturbing to hear DECUS threw stuff out, but not > > surprising. I know of other such actions. Stuff Dennis > > Ritchie donated to a former East Coast Computer Museum > > was discarded and I also know of stuff given to USENIX > > that they tossed (luckily some of that has been recovered > > but I am sure much was lost permanently). > > > bill > > > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 15:24:54 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 15:24:54 -0600 Subject: Interesting RK8E fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are you using the same pack for the 8 and the 11 On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 8:54 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Dec 8, 2018, 1:02 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 9:58 PM Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > > Hi all -- > > > > > > Finally got all the parts together (and my act together) to actually > get > > > an RK05 lashed up to my PDP-8/e -- only took a decade or so :). I > fixed > > a > > > few problems with the RK05 and it appears to be behaving very nicely. > > > > > > The RK8E controller is mostly working properly but fails interestingly > > > when running the formatter, and during the exerciser -- on cylinder 128 > > and > > > 192 and very infrequently on cylinder 64 it will get a cylinder > mismatch > > > when doing the seek. When running the formatter during the > verification > > > pass, on cyls 64 and 128 if I retry the read it'll continue without > > issues, > > > but it's never successful on a retry on cylinder 192. I tried hooking > it > > > to the RK05 in my 11/40 and it exhibits the same behavior, so I'm > > guessing > > > the drive isn't at fault. And the error is consistent across packs (of > > > which I have only two). > > > > > > Apart from that fault the drive and controller seem to work fine -- I > > > wrote out an OS/8 pack with Adventure on it (or at least the first 191 > > > cylinders of it) and it works without issue. > > > > > > Reading the RK8E service docs and schematics, the cylinder address > > compare > > > is done by reusing the CRC buffer, so I suspect the issue is in or > around > > > there -- the big problem is that debugging it is rather painful since > > that > > > logic is in the middle board of a three board set, with jumper blocks > on > > > top -- so bringing it out on an extender isn't an option. I'm curious > if > > > anyone's seen this issue or is so very familiar with the logic that the > > > fault is obvious. > > > > > > I suspected the 7496 shift register at E14 which takes in the cylinder > > > address to be compared w/the header on disk, and I went ahead and > > replaced > > > it in the hopes that I'd get lucky, but no go. > > > > > > Anyone have any advice? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Josh > > > > > > > > I'll add that during the format/verification the drive seeks properly > (i.e. > > it's not missing a step or overstepping), which I've confirmed by > watching > > the thing walk through the tracks with the cover off. > > > > - Josh > > > > Partitions as rka0 / rka1? > B > > > > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 15:48:52 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 15:48:52 -0600 Subject: seagate 801-> Q-bus interface Message-ID: Does anyone know who made a controller for a Seagate 800 or 801 floppy that will plug into the Q-bus? Model numbers wound be nice to. Thanks, Paul From jsw at ieee.org Sat Dec 8 15:52:53 2018 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 15:52:53 -0600 Subject: seagate 801-> Q-bus interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53d389cd-5307-4643-a880-37cf3563c8af@ieee.org> On 12/8/18 3:48 PM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know who made a controller for a Seagate 800 or 801 floppy that > will plug into the Q-bus? Model numbers wound be nice to. > > Thanks, Paul Dilog DQ419 Sigma SDC RXV31 Jerry From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 8 15:56:22 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 13:56:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Conferences/Exhibitions (Was: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> <1b917359-aa1d-66d2-68b0-6298688e6fcd@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Dec 2018, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > were the decus confrinces ever held in multi level parking garages? keep > hearing a story of one that was so big it took over one. door prize was a > rainbow 100 my dad won in 79 80?? tells me he got a membership when he was > a teen i the early 70's after hanging out with the nasa guys in the 60's in > town who used to run experiments up in northern manitoba Congratulations. THAT is a great prize! I never attended any confrinces, but a lot of conferences and exhibitions. National Computer Conference was one of the first ones, started in 1951, under the name Joint Computer Conference. 1968 was Engelbart's "The Mother Of All Demos" In 1973, it became National Computer Conference. Anaheim in 1983 was a big one. S'posedly a couple of people died from the heat in the "tents" (temporary buildings, because it overflowed the convention facilities) CeBIT (Hanover Germany) was the largest. Started in 1970; ended? in 2018. Sorry, I have little or no information about it; I never got a chance to go. One of the next early ones was "The West Coast Computer Faire". Started by Jim Warren (also known for Silicon Gulch Gazette, and role in starting mumerous other publications) Jim Warren used to roll around the show on roller skates. First one of WCCF was in 1977 in Brooks Hall and Civic Auditorium in San Francisco. It included intro of AppleII and Commodore PET. (All discussion of "FIRST" between TRS80, Commodore PET, and APPLE2 is essentially meaningless, as they were for all practical purposes TIED, and "FIRST" is based on WHICH aspect you consider important.) Second was in San Jose, (1978) Third was in Los Angeles, (1978) Fourth was back in SF. (1979) (first one that I exhibited in), and intro of VisiCalc Fifth (1980) included intro of Microsoft SoftCard Sixth (1981) included Osborne 1 A spin-off was the West Coast PC Faire. But, Apple stopped exhibiting at WCCF, and "any show [other than Comdex] that also has PC-based exhibits". In 1983, Jim Warren sold out to Prentice Hall, who sold to Shelly Adelson (Comdex, and Las Vegas hotels). WCCF declined. At "SOG" ("Semi-Official Gathering" put on by Micro-Cornucopia), we presented Jim Warren with a pair of skates and told him that it was time to put them back on. WCCF declined rapidly and ended with 16th in 1991? Comdex started in 1979 (Las Vegas), by Shelly Adelson, and by the mid 1980s, Comdex Las Vegas became the largest USA show. It filled ALL of the convention halls of all of the hotels that had convention halls, with shuttle buses between them (Hilton, Riviera, MGM, Sahara, Tropicana, Caesar's Palace, Sands, etc.) $39.95 hotel rooms bumped their rates to $140+ and sold out. Smallest booth size was 10x10. But, because of an ERROR in drawing the floorplan, a couple of years, I was able to get a 7x7! Some, including Microsoft, set up micro-booths within their "pavilion" booths to rent out to many small affiliated companies. It spun-off Spring Comdex (Atlanta?) and some international shows. It declined, and Travel complications for international attendees were BAD in 2001 (post 9/11), and the show RAPIDLY declined and closed in 2003. I still have some miscellaneous copies of the show guide/directory from a number of years. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 16:06:21 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 16:06:21 -0600 Subject: Conferences/Exhibitions (Was: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> <1b917359-aa1d-66d2-68b0-6298688e6fcd@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: neat you should scan those and put em up on bit savers or somthing On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 3:56 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 8 Dec 2018, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > were the decus confrinces ever held in multi level parking garages? keep > > hearing a story of one that was so big it took over one. door prize was a > > rainbow 100 my dad won in 79 80?? tells me he got a membership when he > was > > a teen i the early 70's after hanging out with the nasa guys in the 60's > in > > town who used to run experiments up in northern manitoba > > Congratulations. THAT is a great prize! > > > I never attended any confrinces, but a lot of conferences and exhibitions. > > > National Computer Conference was one of the first ones, started in 1951, > under the name Joint Computer Conference. > 1968 was Engelbart's "The Mother Of All Demos" > In 1973, it became National Computer Conference. > Anaheim in 1983 was a big one. S'posedly a couple of people died from the > heat in the "tents" (temporary buildings, because it overflowed the > convention facilities) > > > CeBIT (Hanover Germany) was the largest. Started in 1970; ended? in 2018. > Sorry, I have little or no information about it; I never got a chance to > go. > > > One of the next early ones was "The West Coast Computer Faire". > Started by Jim Warren (also known for Silicon Gulch Gazette, and role > in starting mumerous other publications) Jim Warren used to roll around > the show on roller skates. > > First one of WCCF was in 1977 in Brooks Hall and Civic Auditorium in San > Francisco. It included intro of AppleII and Commodore PET. > > (All discussion of "FIRST" between TRS80, Commodore PET, and APPLE2 is > essentially meaningless, as they were for all practical purposes TIED, and > "FIRST" is based on WHICH aspect you consider important.) > > Second was in San Jose, (1978) > Third was in Los Angeles, (1978) > Fourth was back in SF. (1979) (first one that I exhibited in), and intro > of VisiCalc > Fifth (1980) included intro of Microsoft SoftCard > Sixth (1981) included Osborne 1 > A spin-off was the West Coast PC Faire. > But, Apple stopped exhibiting at WCCF, and "any show [other than Comdex] > that also has PC-based exhibits". > In 1983, Jim Warren sold out to Prentice Hall, who sold to Shelly Adelson > (Comdex, and Las Vegas hotels). WCCF declined. > At "SOG" ("Semi-Official Gathering" put on by Micro-Cornucopia), we > presented Jim Warren with a pair of skates and told him that it was time > to put them back on. > WCCF declined rapidly and ended with 16th in 1991? > > > Comdex started in 1979 (Las Vegas), by Shelly Adelson, and by the mid > 1980s, Comdex Las Vegas became the largest USA show. > It filled ALL of the convention halls of all of the hotels that had > convention halls, with shuttle buses between them (Hilton, Riviera, MGM, > Sahara, Tropicana, Caesar's Palace, Sands, etc.) > $39.95 hotel rooms bumped their rates to $140+ and sold out. > Smallest booth size was 10x10. But, because of an ERROR in drawing the > floorplan, a couple of years, I was able to get a 7x7! > Some, including Microsoft, set up micro-booths within their > "pavilion" booths to rent out to many small affiliated companies. > It spun-off Spring Comdex (Atlanta?) and some international shows. > It declined, and Travel complications for international attendees were BAD > in 2001 (post 9/11), and the show RAPIDLY declined and closed in 2003. > I still have some miscellaneous copies of the show guide/directory from a > number of years. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 8 16:10:26 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 14:10:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> Message-ID: WOW! That is the first TRULY obviously and unarguably spam post that I've seen make it past the cctech moderation! On Sat, 8 Dec 2018, HempOil via cctech wrote: > Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health > http://www.tedsplansmart.review/12706-954-1315-7688394/classiccmp/tindex9.html > > Unsubscribe Here > > http://www.tedsplansmart.review/12706-954-1315-7688394/classiccmp/rindex10.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 8 16:21:44 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 14:21:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Conferences/Exhibitions (Was: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> <1b917359-aa1d-66d2-68b0-6298688e6fcd@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: >> I still have some miscellaneous copies of the show guide/directory from a >> number of years. On Sat, 8 Dec 2018, Adrian Stoness wrote: > neat you should scan those and put em up on bit savers or somthing I don't have a suitable scanner, and no longer have my paper shear. They are about 6?x8? x 1.5?, with "perfect binding" (like paperback book or phonebook) I no longer have a complete set, (and I never had any of the ones prior to 1983) and the ones that are left are scattered in a few locations. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Dec 8 16:49:20 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 15:49:20 -0700 Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> Message-ID: <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/8/18 3:10 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > WOW! Ya. > That is the first TRULY obviously and unarguably spam post that I've > seen make it past the cctech moderation! I didn't think that subscribers were subject to moderation. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 8 16:57:40 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 14:57:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: >> That is the first TRULY obviously and unarguably spam post that I've seen >> make it past the cctech moderation! > On Sat, 8 Dec 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I didn't think that subscribers were subject to moderation. HempOil is subscribed to cctech??!? Well, mistakes happen? Maybe give them a few minutes to APOLOGIZE and donate a significant infusion of server hardware? From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Dec 8 17:06:56 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 16:06:56 -0700 Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <201655a6-5f15-e494-f950-6b3f83b83edf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/8/18 3:57 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > HempOil is subscribed to cctech??!? ?\_(?)_/? > Well, mistakes happen? Yep. > Maybe give them a few minutes to APOLOGIZE and donate a significant > infusion of server hardware? I wouldn't hold my breath. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Dec 8 17:43:28 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 23:43:28 +0000 Subject: seagate 801-> Q-bus interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/8/18 4:48 PM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know who made a controller for a Seagate 800 or 801 floppy that > will plug into the Q-bus? Model numbers wound be nice to. > > Thanks, Paul Andromeda made one.? UDC11.? And you needed A "Personality Card", WPC8F.? I have a couple of UDC11's but have never seen a WPC8F. bill From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Dec 8 18:36:07 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 17:36:07 -0700 Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <201655a6-5f15-e494-f950-6b3f83b83edf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 12/8/18 4:43 PM, Michael Mulhern wrote: > We are the spambot challenge? Something like that. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Dec 8 19:13:31 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 01:13:31 +0000 Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <201655a6-5f15-e494-f950-6b3f83b83edf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 12/8/18 7:36 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 12/8/18 4:43 PM, Michael Mulhern wrote: >> We are the spambot challenge? > > Something like that. > > > Until people started commenting on it I never saw it.? It was flagged as SPAM and never showed up in my INBOX. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 8 19:44:39 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 17:44:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <201655a6-5f15-e494-f950-6b3f83b83edf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: >> On 12/8/18 4:43 PM, Michael Mulhern wrote: >>> We are the spambot challenge? >> > On 12/8/18 7:36 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> Something like that. >> On Sun, 9 Dec 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Until people started commenting on it I never saw it.? It was flagged > as SPAM and never showed up in my INBOX. And, other than the mention of it by Grant, I never got Michael Mulhern's message. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Dec 8 19:55:40 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:55:40 -0700 Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <201655a6-5f15-e494-f950-6b3f83b83edf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <7a8bcfe9-9799-f1d7-f31c-47ba3d949653@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/8/18 6:44 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > And, other than the mention of it by Grant, I never got Michael > Mulhern's message. Um ? Fred, I replied to your email, which was itself a reply to the spam message. On 12/8/18 3:10 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > WOW! > > That is the first TRULY obviously and unarguably spam post that I've > seen make it past the cctech moderation! -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 8 20:28:51 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:28:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: <7a8bcfe9-9799-f1d7-f31c-47ba3d949653@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <201655a6-5f15-e494-f950-6b3f83b83edf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <7a8bcfe9-9799-f1d7-f31c-47ba3d949653@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Yes. I replied to the spam, as shown below, although I switched it from cctech to cctalk. You replied to me, saying subscribers weren't moderated. I got that. I replied to you, questioning whether hempoil was subscribed. You replied to that. I got that. AND, you replied to the one from Michael Mulhern: Other than your reply to Michael Mulhern's message, I never received the post from Michael Mulhern that you were replying to: So, my count is: 1) Hempoil spam 2) my reply 3) your reply to me 4) my reply to you 5) your reply to me I NEVER GOT Michael Mulhern's post. 7?) your reply to Micheal Mulhern I got THAT, but not Michael Mulhern's post that you were replying to. 8) Bill Gunshannon's reply to you On 12/8/18 4:43 PM, Michael Mulhern wrote: > We are the spambot challenge? Something like that. On Sat, 8 Dec 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 12/8/18 6:44 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> And, other than the mention of it by Grant, I never got Michael >> Mulhern's message. > > Um ??? Fred, I replied to your email, which was itself a reply to the > spam message. > > On 12/8/18 3:10 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> WOW! >> >> That is the first TRULY obviously and unarguably spam post that I've >> seen make it past the cctech moderation! > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 21:13:10 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 21:13:10 -0600 Subject: Conferences/Exhibitions (Was: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> <1b917359-aa1d-66d2-68b0-6298688e6fcd@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: cool On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 4:21 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> I still have some miscellaneous copies of the show guide/directory from > a > >> number of years. > > On Sat, 8 Dec 2018, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > neat you should scan those and put em up on bit savers or somthing > > I don't have a suitable scanner, and no longer have my paper shear. > They are about 6?x8? x 1.5?, with "perfect binding" (like paperback book > or phonebook) > > I no longer have a complete set, (and I never had any of the ones prior to > 1983) and the ones that are left are scattered in a few locations. > > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 21:15:03 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 21:15:03 -0600 Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <201655a6-5f15-e494-f950-6b3f83b83edf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <7a8bcfe9-9799-f1d7-f31c-47ba3d949653@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: simlar chain for me On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 8:29 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Yes. > I replied to the spam, as shown below, although I switched it from cctech > to cctalk. > You replied to me, saying subscribers weren't moderated. I got that. > I replied to you, questioning whether hempoil was subscribed. > You replied to that. I got that. > AND, you replied to the one from Michael Mulhern: > Other than your reply to Michael Mulhern's message, I never > received the post from Michael Mulhern that you were replying to: > > So, my count is: > 1) Hempoil spam > 2) my reply > 3) your reply to me > 4) my reply to you > 5) your reply to me > I NEVER GOT Michael Mulhern's post. > 7?) your reply to Micheal Mulhern I got THAT, but not Michael Mulhern's > post that you were replying to. > 8) Bill Gunshannon's reply to you > > On 12/8/18 4:43 PM, Michael Mulhern wrote: > > We are the spambot challenge? > Something like that. > > > > On Sat, 8 Dec 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/8/18 6:44 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> And, other than the mention of it by Grant, I never got Michael > >> Mulhern's message. > > > > Um ? Fred, I replied to your email, which was itself a reply to the > > spam message. > > > > On 12/8/18 3:10 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> WOW! > >> > >> That is the first TRULY obviously and unarguably spam post that I've > >> seen make it past the cctech moderation! > > > > > > > > -- > > Grant. . . . > > unix || die > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Dec 8 21:22:19 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 20:22:19 -0700 Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <201655a6-5f15-e494-f950-6b3f83b83edf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <7a8bcfe9-9799-f1d7-f31c-47ba3d949653@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <0979860a-12df-0361-4512-b588a8d8faa6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/8/18 7:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > AND, you replied to the one from Michael Mulhern: > Other than your reply to Michael Mulhern's message, I never received the > post from Michael Mulhern that you were replying to: Ah. I misunderstood your comment to be about the reply to the original spam email. Sorry for the confusion. I'll go back to my corner now. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 8 21:27:01 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 19:27:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: <0979860a-12df-0361-4512-b588a8d8faa6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <201655a6-5f15-e494-f950-6b3f83b83edf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <7a8bcfe9-9799-f1d7-f31c-47ba3d949653@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <0979860a-12df-0361-4512-b588a8d8faa6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Dec 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Ah. > I misunderstood your comment to be about the reply to the original spam > email. > Sorry for the confusion. I'll go back to my corner now. Quite alright. I'm concerned about never getting a message, but not a big deal, and I think that I got all of yours. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Dec 8 21:44:48 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 20:44:48 -0700 Subject: Hemp Oil Gummies That Improve Cardiovascular Health In-Reply-To: References: <12706360768839412706131595446217939@wc8xmywth.tedsplansmart.review> <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <201655a6-5f15-e494-f950-6b3f83b83edf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <7a8bcfe9-9799-f1d7-f31c-47ba3d949653@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <0979860a-12df-0361-4512-b588a8d8faa6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <1312b0f6-d1d7-fb84-c631-11c80ed3ee57@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/8/18 8:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Quite alright. :-) > I'm concerned about never getting a message, but not a big deal, and I > think that I got all of yours. It sounds like there might be a couple of mailing lists in play, cctalk (which I email) and cctech. I know that there is history, and possibly plans to merge them. But it's my understanding that that cctalk gets more email than cctech. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 22:50:19 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 20:50:19 -0800 Subject: Interesting RK8E fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 7:24 PM Paul Anderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Are you using the same pack for the 8 and the 11 > I connected the drive I normally use with my 11/40 to the 8/e for testing to help narrow down where the fault was. I used a 16-sector pack in all cases. - Josh > > On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 8:54 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 8, 2018, 1:02 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 9:58 PM Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > > > > Hi all -- > > > > > > > > Finally got all the parts together (and my act together) to actually > > get > > > > an RK05 lashed up to my PDP-8/e -- only took a decade or so :). I > > fixed > > > a > > > > few problems with the RK05 and it appears to be behaving very nicely. > > > > > > > > The RK8E controller is mostly working properly but fails > interestingly > > > > when running the formatter, and during the exerciser -- on cylinder > 128 > > > and > > > > 192 and very infrequently on cylinder 64 it will get a cylinder > > mismatch > > > > when doing the seek. When running the formatter during the > > verification > > > > pass, on cyls 64 and 128 if I retry the read it'll continue without > > > issues, > > > > but it's never successful on a retry on cylinder 192. I tried > hooking > > it > > > > to the RK05 in my 11/40 and it exhibits the same behavior, so I'm > > > guessing > > > > the drive isn't at fault. And the error is consistent across packs > (of > > > > which I have only two). > > > > > > > > Apart from that fault the drive and controller seem to work fine -- I > > > > wrote out an OS/8 pack with Adventure on it (or at least the first > 191 > > > > cylinders of it) and it works without issue. > > > > > > > > Reading the RK8E service docs and schematics, the cylinder address > > > compare > > > > is done by reusing the CRC buffer, so I suspect the issue is in or > > around > > > > there -- the big problem is that debugging it is rather painful since > > > that > > > > logic is in the middle board of a three board set, with jumper blocks > > on > > > > top -- so bringing it out on an extender isn't an option. I'm > curious > > if > > > > anyone's seen this issue or is so very familiar with the logic that > the > > > > fault is obvious. > > > > > > > > I suspected the 7496 shift register at E14 which takes in the > cylinder > > > > address to be compared w/the header on disk, and I went ahead and > > > replaced > > > > it in the hopes that I'd get lucky, but no go. > > > > > > > > Anyone have any advice? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Josh > > > > > > > > > > > I'll add that during the format/verification the drive seeks properly > > (i.e. > > > it's not missing a step or overstepping), which I've confirmed by > > watching > > > the thing walk through the tracks with the cover off. > > > > > > - Josh > > > > > > > Partitions as rka0 / rka1? > > B > > > > > > > > From rtomek at ceti.pl Sun Dec 9 00:27:29 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 07:27:29 +0100 Subject: meHp lOi semimuG In-Reply-To: References: <7600d7cf-4707-d154-09fc-0b83eaeff6ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <201655a6-5f15-e494-f950-6b3f83b83edf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <7a8bcfe9-9799-f1d7-f31c-47ba3d949653@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20181209062729.GA27367@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sat, Dec 08, 2018 at 06:28:51PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Yes. > I replied to the spam, as shown below, although I switched it from > cctech to cctalk. [...] > Other than your reply to Michael Mulhern's message, I never received > the post from Michael Mulhern that you were replying to: > > So, my count is: > 1) Hempoil spam > 2) my reply > 3) your reply to me > 4) my reply to you > 5) your reply to me > I NEVER GOT Michael Mulhern's post. > 7?) your reply to Micheal Mulhern I got THAT, but not Michael > Mulhern's post that you were replying to. > 8) Bill Gunshannon's reply to you Same here. I found 1 and 2 in my 'smap forled' but not a trace of 6. > On 12/8/18 4:43 PM, Michael Mulhern wrote: > >We are the spambot challenge? > Something like that. Cheer up, at least we are still smart enough to bend idiotic thread into something useful. I can stand some maps, either it goes into maps forled or I skip it. But I would rather get all emails sent to me, it possible of course. But a getting majority is still a win, so, no big fuss. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Dec 9 00:33:35 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 22:33:35 -0800 Subject: Interesting RK8E fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 8, 2018, at 8:50 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 7:24 PM Paul Anderson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Are you using the same pack for the 8 and the 11 >> > > I connected the drive I normally use with my 11/40 to the 8/e for testing > to help narrow down where the fault was. > I used a 16-sector pack in all cases. You should be using 12 sector packs on the 11 and 16 sector packs on the 8. I?m actually surprised the 16 sector pack worked on the 11. TTFN - Guy > > >> >> On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 8:54 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Dec 8, 2018, 1:02 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 9:58 PM Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all -- >>>>> >>>>> Finally got all the parts together (and my act together) to actually >>> get >>>>> an RK05 lashed up to my PDP-8/e -- only took a decade or so :). I >>> fixed >>>> a >>>>> few problems with the RK05 and it appears to be behaving very nicely. >>>>> >>>>> The RK8E controller is mostly working properly but fails >> interestingly >>>>> when running the formatter, and during the exerciser -- on cylinder >> 128 >>>> and >>>>> 192 and very infrequently on cylinder 64 it will get a cylinder >>> mismatch >>>>> when doing the seek. When running the formatter during the >>> verification >>>>> pass, on cyls 64 and 128 if I retry the read it'll continue without >>>> issues, >>>>> but it's never successful on a retry on cylinder 192. I tried >> hooking >>> it >>>>> to the RK05 in my 11/40 and it exhibits the same behavior, so I'm >>>> guessing >>>>> the drive isn't at fault. And the error is consistent across packs >> (of >>>>> which I have only two). >>>>> >>>>> Apart from that fault the drive and controller seem to work fine -- I >>>>> wrote out an OS/8 pack with Adventure on it (or at least the first >> 191 >>>>> cylinders of it) and it works without issue. >>>>> >>>>> Reading the RK8E service docs and schematics, the cylinder address >>>> compare >>>>> is done by reusing the CRC buffer, so I suspect the issue is in or >>> around >>>>> there -- the big problem is that debugging it is rather painful since >>>> that >>>>> logic is in the middle board of a three board set, with jumper blocks >>> on >>>>> top -- so bringing it out on an extender isn't an option. I'm >> curious >>> if >>>>> anyone's seen this issue or is so very familiar with the logic that >> the >>>>> fault is obvious. >>>>> >>>>> I suspected the 7496 shift register at E14 which takes in the >> cylinder >>>>> address to be compared w/the header on disk, and I went ahead and >>>> replaced >>>>> it in the hopes that I'd get lucky, but no go. >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have any advice? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Josh >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I'll add that during the format/verification the drive seeks properly >>> (i.e. >>>> it's not missing a step or overstepping), which I've confirmed by >>> watching >>>> the thing walk through the tracks with the cover off. >>>> >>>> - Josh >>>> >>> >>> Partitions as rka0 / rka1? >>> B >>> >>>> >>> >> From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 00:36:35 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 22:36:35 -0800 Subject: Interesting RK8E fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 10:33 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > > On Dec 8, 2018, at 8:50 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 7:24 PM Paul Anderson via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Are you using the same pack for the 8 and the 11 > >> > > > > I connected the drive I normally use with my 11/40 to the 8/e for testing > > to help narrow down where the fault was. > > I used a 16-sector pack in all cases. > > You should be using 12 sector packs on the 11 and 16 sector packs on the 8. > > I?m actually surprised the 16 sector pack worked on the 11. > In all cases /pertinent to this discussion/, i.e. with the RK8E attached to both the 11/40's RK05 and the RK05 I've restored for the 8/e. I have 12-sector packs that I normally use with the 11/40. - Josh > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 8:54 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> On Sat, Dec 8, 2018, 1:02 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 9:58 PM Josh Dersch > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi all -- > >>>>> > >>>>> Finally got all the parts together (and my act together) to actually > >>> get > >>>>> an RK05 lashed up to my PDP-8/e -- only took a decade or so :). I > >>> fixed > >>>> a > >>>>> few problems with the RK05 and it appears to be behaving very nicely. > >>>>> > >>>>> The RK8E controller is mostly working properly but fails > >> interestingly > >>>>> when running the formatter, and during the exerciser -- on cylinder > >> 128 > >>>> and > >>>>> 192 and very infrequently on cylinder 64 it will get a cylinder > >>> mismatch > >>>>> when doing the seek. When running the formatter during the > >>> verification > >>>>> pass, on cyls 64 and 128 if I retry the read it'll continue without > >>>> issues, > >>>>> but it's never successful on a retry on cylinder 192. I tried > >> hooking > >>> it > >>>>> to the RK05 in my 11/40 and it exhibits the same behavior, so I'm > >>>> guessing > >>>>> the drive isn't at fault. And the error is consistent across packs > >> (of > >>>>> which I have only two). > >>>>> > >>>>> Apart from that fault the drive and controller seem to work fine -- I > >>>>> wrote out an OS/8 pack with Adventure on it (or at least the first > >> 191 > >>>>> cylinders of it) and it works without issue. > >>>>> > >>>>> Reading the RK8E service docs and schematics, the cylinder address > >>>> compare > >>>>> is done by reusing the CRC buffer, so I suspect the issue is in or > >>> around > >>>>> there -- the big problem is that debugging it is rather painful since > >>>> that > >>>>> logic is in the middle board of a three board set, with jumper blocks > >>> on > >>>>> top -- so bringing it out on an extender isn't an option. I'm > >> curious > >>> if > >>>>> anyone's seen this issue or is so very familiar with the logic that > >> the > >>>>> fault is obvious. > >>>>> > >>>>> I suspected the 7496 shift register at E14 which takes in the > >> cylinder > >>>>> address to be compared w/the header on disk, and I went ahead and > >>>> replaced > >>>>> it in the hopes that I'd get lucky, but no go. > >>>>> > >>>>> Anyone have any advice? > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> Josh > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> I'll add that during the format/verification the drive seeks properly > >>> (i.e. > >>>> it's not missing a step or overstepping), which I've confirmed by > >>> watching > >>>> the thing walk through the tracks with the cover off. > >>>> > >>>> - Josh > >>>> > >>> > >>> Partitions as rka0 / rka1? > >>> B > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Dec 9 00:43:45 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 22:43:45 -0800 Subject: Interesting RK8E fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3536DBAB-FD9B-419E-8010-E7ED6EA60B95@shiresoft.com> > On Dec 8, 2018, at 10:36 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 10:33 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr > wrote: > > > On Dec 8, 2018, at 8:50 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 7:24 PM Paul Anderson via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org > wrote: > > > >> Are you using the same pack for the 8 and the 11 > >> > > > > I connected the drive I normally use with my 11/40 to the 8/e for testing > > to help narrow down where the fault was. > > I used a 16-sector pack in all cases. > > You should be using 12 sector packs on the 11 and 16 sector packs on the 8. > > I?m actually surprised the 16 sector pack worked on the 11. > > In all cases /pertinent to this discussion/, i.e. with the RK8E attached to both the 11/40's RK05 and the RK05 I've restored for the 8/e. > > I have 12-sector packs that I normally use with the 11/40. OK, just so that I understand the problem: Do you see the problem only on the RK05 you restored for the 8/e and don?t see it on the drives from the 11/40? Or do you see the problem on all the drives when hooked to the 8/e and when using a 12 sector pack on the 11/40 you don?t see the problem when using any of the drives on the 11/40? Or do you see the problem on the drive restored for the 8/e but not on the drives from the 11/40? TTFN - Guy > > > > > > > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 8:54 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> On Sat, Dec 8, 2018, 1:02 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 9:58 PM Josh Dersch > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi all -- > >>>>> > >>>>> Finally got all the parts together (and my act together) to actually > >>> get > >>>>> an RK05 lashed up to my PDP-8/e -- only took a decade or so :). I > >>> fixed > >>>> a > >>>>> few problems with the RK05 and it appears to be behaving very nicely. > >>>>> > >>>>> The RK8E controller is mostly working properly but fails > >> interestingly > >>>>> when running the formatter, and during the exerciser -- on cylinder > >> 128 > >>>> and > >>>>> 192 and very infrequently on cylinder 64 it will get a cylinder > >>> mismatch > >>>>> when doing the seek. When running the formatter during the > >>> verification > >>>>> pass, on cyls 64 and 128 if I retry the read it'll continue without > >>>> issues, > >>>>> but it's never successful on a retry on cylinder 192. I tried > >> hooking > >>> it > >>>>> to the RK05 in my 11/40 and it exhibits the same behavior, so I'm > >>>> guessing > >>>>> the drive isn't at fault. And the error is consistent across packs > >> (of > >>>>> which I have only two). > >>>>> > >>>>> Apart from that fault the drive and controller seem to work fine -- I > >>>>> wrote out an OS/8 pack with Adventure on it (or at least the first > >> 191 > >>>>> cylinders of it) and it works without issue. > >>>>> > >>>>> Reading the RK8E service docs and schematics, the cylinder address > >>>> compare > >>>>> is done by reusing the CRC buffer, so I suspect the issue is in or > >>> around > >>>>> there -- the big problem is that debugging it is rather painful since > >>>> that > >>>>> logic is in the middle board of a three board set, with jumper blocks > >>> on > >>>>> top -- so bringing it out on an extender isn't an option. I'm > >> curious > >>> if > >>>>> anyone's seen this issue or is so very familiar with the logic that > >> the > >>>>> fault is obvious. > >>>>> > >>>>> I suspected the 7496 shift register at E14 which takes in the > >> cylinder > >>>>> address to be compared w/the header on disk, and I went ahead and > >>>> replaced > >>>>> it in the hopes that I'd get lucky, but no go. > >>>>> > >>>>> Anyone have any advice? > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> Josh > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> I'll add that during the format/verification the drive seeks properly > >>> (i.e. > >>>> it's not missing a step or overstepping), which I've confirmed by > >>> watching > >>>> the thing walk through the tracks with the cover off. > >>>> > >>>> - Josh > >>>> > >>> > >>> Partitions as rka0 / rka1? > >>> B > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 00:49:22 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 22:49:22 -0800 Subject: Interesting RK8E fault In-Reply-To: <3536DBAB-FD9B-419E-8010-E7ED6EA60B95@shiresoft.com> References: <3536DBAB-FD9B-419E-8010-E7ED6EA60B95@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 10:43 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > On Dec 8, 2018, at 10:36 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 10:33 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr > wrote: > >> >> > On Dec 8, 2018, at 8:50 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> > On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 7:24 PM Paul Anderson via cctalk < >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Are you using the same pack for the 8 and the 11 >> >> >> > >> > I connected the drive I normally use with my 11/40 to the 8/e for >> testing >> > to help narrow down where the fault was. >> > I used a 16-sector pack in all cases. >> >> You should be using 12 sector packs on the 11 and 16 sector packs on the >> 8. >> >> I?m actually surprised the 16 sector pack worked on the 11. >> > > In all cases /pertinent to this discussion/, i.e. with the RK8E attached > to both the 11/40's RK05 and the RK05 I've restored for the 8/e. > > I have 12-sector packs that I normally use with the 11/40. > > > OK, just so that I understand the problem: > > > - Do you see the problem only on the RK05 you restored for the 8/e and > don?t see it on the drives from the 11/40? > - Or do you see the problem on all the drives when hooked to the 8/e > and when using a 12 sector pack on the 11/40 you don?t see the problem when > using any of the drives on the 11/40? > - Or do you see the problem on the drive restored for the 8/e but not > on the drives from the 11/40? > > > Just to clear this all up :) : I have an RK8E that's exhibiting some odd behavior. Amongst other things I've poked at, in order to help pinpoint the problem to the RK8E I ran the formatter and exerciser using the RK8E with both the RK05 I restored for use with the PDP-8/e *and* an RK05 I'd previously restored and which works 100% perfectly with my PDP-11/40. In both cases (i.e. with the 8/e's RK05 and the 11/40's RK05) I used 16-sector packs (because I wouldn't expect it to work on the PDP-8/e otherwise). The diagnostic and formatter behave identically with both drives. Therefore: I assume the problem is with the RK8E. If anyone has any insights into the inner workings of the RK8E (in particular the CRC circuit, since it's used to compare the on-disk cylinder address stored in the header with the cylinder selected by the RK8E's address register) please let me know. Thanks again, Josh > TTFN - Guy > > >> >> > >> > >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 8:54 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < >> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Sat, Dec 8, 2018, 1:02 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk < >> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 9:58 PM Josh Dersch >> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Hi all -- >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Finally got all the parts together (and my act together) to actually >> >>> get >> >>>>> an RK05 lashed up to my PDP-8/e -- only took a decade or so :). I >> >>> fixed >> >>>> a >> >>>>> few problems with the RK05 and it appears to be behaving very >> nicely. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The RK8E controller is mostly working properly but fails >> >> interestingly >> >>>>> when running the formatter, and during the exerciser -- on cylinder >> >> 128 >> >>>> and >> >>>>> 192 and very infrequently on cylinder 64 it will get a cylinder >> >>> mismatch >> >>>>> when doing the seek. When running the formatter during the >> >>> verification >> >>>>> pass, on cyls 64 and 128 if I retry the read it'll continue without >> >>>> issues, >> >>>>> but it's never successful on a retry on cylinder 192. I tried >> >> hooking >> >>> it >> >>>>> to the RK05 in my 11/40 and it exhibits the same behavior, so I'm >> >>>> guessing >> >>>>> the drive isn't at fault. And the error is consistent across packs >> >> (of >> >>>>> which I have only two). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Apart from that fault the drive and controller seem to work fine -- >> I >> >>>>> wrote out an OS/8 pack with Adventure on it (or at least the first >> >> 191 >> >>>>> cylinders of it) and it works without issue. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Reading the RK8E service docs and schematics, the cylinder address >> >>>> compare >> >>>>> is done by reusing the CRC buffer, so I suspect the issue is in or >> >>> around >> >>>>> there -- the big problem is that debugging it is rather painful >> since >> >>>> that >> >>>>> logic is in the middle board of a three board set, with jumper >> blocks >> >>> on >> >>>>> top -- so bringing it out on an extender isn't an option. I'm >> >> curious >> >>> if >> >>>>> anyone's seen this issue or is so very familiar with the logic that >> >> the >> >>>>> fault is obvious. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I suspected the 7496 shift register at E14 which takes in the >> >> cylinder >> >>>>> address to be compared w/the header on disk, and I went ahead and >> >>>> replaced >> >>>>> it in the hopes that I'd get lucky, but no go. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Anyone have any advice? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>> Josh >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> I'll add that during the format/verification the drive seeks properly >> >>> (i.e. >> >>>> it's not missing a step or overstepping), which I've confirmed by >> >>> watching >> >>>> the thing walk through the tracks with the cover off. >> >>>> >> >>>> - Josh >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> Partitions as rka0 / rka1? >> >>> B >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Dec 9 03:13:57 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 10:13:57 +0100 (CET) Subject: Opening RL02 disk pack In-Reply-To: <20181207152405.1FE6918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181207152405.1FE6918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2018, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From>: Christian Corti > > > I thought that the DEC packs would be similar but no, DEC had to invent > > something different... > > Huh? I thought RL0x drives use an IBM 5440 type pack (as used on the IBM Yes, I mean the mechanism of the handle that is different, not the entire pack. Christian From iain at csp-partnership.co.uk Sun Dec 9 03:20:53 2018 From: iain at csp-partnership.co.uk (Dr Iain Maoileoin) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 09:20:53 +0000 Subject: chasing down an old game Message-ID: <62C01AFF-C280-4BA5-91A5-34B23B696337@csp-partnership.co.uk> Many many years ago in a distant galaxy (called Strathclyde University Computer Science) we ran a game on the PDPs. It was great at testing out terminal line speed handing and debugging curses (well that is what we told the bosses). I remember the game as being called ?search?. But since we had the source code it could have been anything. It was played on 24 x 80 dumb terminals. It was multi user. In the game you moved around the universe in your craft - the display was a kind of 3-D picture (you got closer to a plant and the planet got bigger - try drawing increasing circles on a 24x80!). You could travel through the universe shooting other craft (friend of foe). The only craft name I think I remember is ?shankers? - becuase we had source a lot of the craft names turned into locally relevant names. You could team up with other players and (1 line) communication with a group or with that player. I have searched (on and off) for the game. I cant find anything like it. I would like it to test out the DZ cards on my PDP! - OK that is my excuse ;-) Is anybody aware of what I am talking about? Does anyone have any old code anywhere? Aye, it was not as good as the old GT40 - but it was a different era. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sun Dec 9 07:14:54 2018 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2018 14:14:54 +0100 Subject: Conferences/Exhibitions (Was: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> <1b917359-aa1d-66d2-68b0-6298688e6fcd@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <6d0d202eb50619b77c59dd8a42cfeb0324c8ee06.camel@agj.net> l?r 2018-12-08 klockan 13:56 -0800 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk: > > > CeBIT (Hanover Germany) was the largest. Started in 1970; ended? in > 2018. > Sorry, I have little or no information about it; I never got a chance > to go. Heinz Nixdorf died (heart failure) on the showroom floor in 1986. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 07:47:45 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 13:47:45 +0000 Subject: Interesting RK8E fault In-Reply-To: References: <3536DBAB-FD9B-419E-8010-E7ED6EA60B95@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 6:50 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > If anyone has any insights into the inner workings of the RK8E (in > particular the CRC circuit, since it's used to compare the on-disk cylinder > address stored in the header with the cylinder selected by the RK8E's > address register) please let me know. I think you can ignore the actual CRC logic here. Just treat the CRC register as a shift register. It is shifted in-sync with the data coming off the disk, in this case the header word that contains the cylinder address. Look at page 25 of the RK8-E engineering drawings (Oct72) on bitsavers. It's sheet D04 (Major Registers PCB). The header word bits (from the disk) are compared with the contents of the the shift register one bit at a time by E24c. The output of that goes to E34b (D input). E34b starts off clear, and remains clear while the bits agree. If there is a difference in the bits (cylinder address is not right) then E34b sets. The Q/ output goes low, pulling the S/ input (pin 10) low. This forces E34b to remain set (The S/ and R/ direct inputs will override the D input). So after all the bits have been compared, E34b is set if there was an error. -tony From mcquiggi at me.com Sun Dec 9 07:56:18 2018 From: mcquiggi at me.com (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 05:56:18 -0800 Subject: chasing down an old game In-Reply-To: <62C01AFF-C280-4BA5-91A5-34B23B696337@csp-partnership.co.uk> References: <62C01AFF-C280-4BA5-91A5-34B23B696337@csp-partnership.co.uk> Message-ID: <87FEA94F-BE81-476A-9BAC-5428DBFCA1ED@me.com> Might be the old ?Star Trek? game? It is still around, I think. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 9, 2018, at 01:20, Dr Iain Maoileoin via cctalk wrote: > > Many many years ago in a distant galaxy (called Strathclyde University Computer Science) we ran a game on the > PDPs. It was great at testing out terminal line speed handing and debugging curses (well that is what we told the > bosses). > > I remember the game as being called ?search?. But since we had the source code it could have been anything. > > It was played on 24 x 80 dumb terminals. It was multi user. In the game you moved around the universe in your > craft - the display was a kind of 3-D picture (you got closer to a plant and the planet got bigger - try drawing increasing > circles on a 24x80!). > > You could travel through the universe shooting other craft (friend of foe). The only craft name I think I remember is > ?shankers? - becuase we had source a lot of the craft names turned into locally relevant names. > > You could team up with other players and (1 line) communication with a group or with that player. > > I have searched (on and off) for the game. > > I cant find anything like it. > > I would like it to test out the DZ cards on my PDP! - OK that is my excuse ;-) > > Is anybody aware of what I am talking about? Does anyone have any old code anywhere? > > Aye, it was not as good as the old GT40 - but it was a different era. > > > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 08:02:44 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 14:02:44 +0000 Subject: Interesting RK8E fault In-Reply-To: References: <3536DBAB-FD9B-419E-8010-E7ED6EA60B95@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 6:50 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > If anyone has any insights into the inner workings of the RK8E (in > particular the CRC circuit, since it's used to compare the on-disk cylinder > address stored in the header with the cylinder selected by the RK8E's > address register) please let me know. It's also worth reading chapter 11 in volume 3 of the PDP8/e (etc) maintenance manual. In particular section 11.15.11.1 etc. It's page 11-92 (page 430 of the ,pdf on bitsavers). -tony From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sun Dec 9 09:55:26 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 02:55:26 +1100 Subject: SUN SPARC station ELC In-Reply-To: References: <3536DBAB-FD9B-419E-8010-E7ED6EA60B95@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181210025526.00faf0c0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Checking out a SUN SPARC station ELC tonight. It powers up, passes self test. Boot fails because the CMOS RAM battery is dead, so it's lost boot config. That's no problem, it's an ST MK48T02B-25 'TIMEKEEPER RAM' 2K x 8, which is still available. Or I'll probably just cut open the tophat and connect a new battery. Then RTFM to find how to tell it to boot from external SCSI device 3. By extreme good fortune this machine came with a complete set of manuals. The main problem is the video monitor worked for a few minutes, then dropped to about half brightness - and since then is randomly varying in brightness. Before I open it up and start connector wiggling and hunting bad caps, dry joints and so one, does anyone know if schematics for the monitor exist online? Guy From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 11:45:30 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 12:45:30 -0500 Subject: SUN SPARC station ELC In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181210025526.00faf0c0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3536DBAB-FD9B-419E-8010-E7ED6EA60B95@shiresoft.com> <3.0.6.32.20181210025526.00faf0c0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Can't comment on the monitor, but I haven't had good luck with modern 48T02 devices and old Sun systems. Apparently ST changed something in how the clock section works, iirc it's timing related. Definitely rebuild your old NVRAMs! I've got a little repair board I made up for it: http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1 The files are on GitHub if you want to run your own, or I've got them assembled and ready to be installed on your NVRAM. Thanks, Jonathan On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 10:55 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Checking out a SUN SPARC station ELC tonight. It powers up, passes self > test. > Boot fails because the CMOS RAM battery is dead, so it's lost boot config. > That's no problem, it's an ST MK48T02B-25 'TIMEKEEPER RAM' 2K x 8, which > is still available. Or I'll probably just cut open the tophat and connect > a new battery. > Then RTFM to find how to tell it to boot from external SCSI device 3. > By extreme good fortune this machine came with a complete set of manuals. > > The main problem is the video monitor worked for a few minutes, then > dropped to > about half brightness - and since then is randomly varying in brightness. > Before I open it up and start connector wiggling and hunting bad caps, dry > joints > and so one, does anyone know if schematics for the monitor exist online? > > Guy > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 13:32:15 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 13:32:15 -0600 Subject: Conferences/Exhibitions (Was: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: <6d0d202eb50619b77c59dd8a42cfeb0324c8ee06.camel@agj.net> References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> <1b917359-aa1d-66d2-68b0-6298688e6fcd@e-bbes.com> <6d0d202eb50619b77c59dd8a42cfeb0324c8ee06.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: ouch that musta cause some chaos. On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 7:15 AM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > l?r 2018-12-08 klockan 13:56 -0800 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk: > > > > > > CeBIT (Hanover Germany) was the largest. Started in 1970; ended? in > > 2018. > > Sorry, I have little or no information about it; I never got a chance > > to go. > > Heinz Nixdorf died (heart failure) on the showroom floor in 1986. > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 14:24:21 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 15:24:21 -0500 Subject: Conferences/Exhibitions (Was: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <05b34fe6-b876-872f-f394-cd49985404be@bitsavers.org> <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> <1b917359-aa1d-66d2-68b0-6298688e6fcd@e-bbes.com> <6d0d202eb50619b77c59dd8a42cfeb0324c8ee06.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: Fyi...i have a square bankers box of decus conference proceedings from the 70's. Are these otherwise available on the www? From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 9 14:28:18 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 12:28:18 -0800 Subject: Conferences/Exhibitions (Was: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> <1b917359-aa1d-66d2-68b0-6298688e6fcd@e-bbes.com> <6d0d202eb50619b77c59dd8a42cfeb0324c8ee06.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On 12/9/18 12:24 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Fyi...i have a square bankers box of decus conference proceedings from the > 70's. Are these otherwise available on the www? > I haven't gotten to them yet. I have several decades of proceedings that I need to scan beyond the ones from the 60's that I've done. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 9 14:31:37 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 12:31:37 -0800 Subject: Conferences/Exhibitions (Was: DECUS PDP-11 SPACE WAR? In-Reply-To: References: <8b2cb0bf-9fdb-21bf-27a6-bba86e258740@bitsavers.org> <326b4db0-c289-0cd8-4822-7f6cd621abc5@bitsavers.org> <18638506-dbc5-7dde-8de5-924647380b84@bitsavers.org> <1b917359-aa1d-66d2-68b0-6298688e6fcd@e-bbes.com> <6d0d202eb50619b77c59dd8a42cfeb0324c8ee06.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <48801ed4-bc9b-f6e8-6a5f-488c64e6412d@bitsavers.org> On 12/9/18 12:28 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/9/18 12:24 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> Fyi...i have a square bankers box of decus conference proceedings from the >> 70's. Are these otherwise available on the www? >> > > I haven't gotten to them yet. > I have several decades of proceedings that I need to scan > beyond the ones from the 60's that I've done. > > and there is a lot in the archives http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=decus+proceedings which probably won't be gotten to in my lifetime From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 15:40:56 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 22:40:56 +0100 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. Message-ID: Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Dec 9 15:48:40 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 14:48:40 -0700 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 2:41 PM Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 > > 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? > Like US launch codes? :) Doesn't the military still use 8" floppies for some operational systems they don't want to replace? Warner From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 15:57:04 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 22:57:04 +0100 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: s?ndag 9 december 2018 skrev Warner Losh : > > > On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 2:41 PM Mattis Lind via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 >> >> 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? >> > > Like US launch codes? :) Doesn't the military still use 8" floppies for > some operational systems they don't want to replace? > Yes. Maybe it is just crap. Sorry for wasting bandwidth. > > Warner > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 15:58:05 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 13:58:05 -0800 Subject: Interesting RK8E fault In-Reply-To: References: <3536DBAB-FD9B-419E-8010-E7ED6EA60B95@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 5:47 AM Tony Duell wrote: > On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 6:50 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > > > If anyone has any insights into the inner workings of the RK8E (in > > particular the CRC circuit, since it's used to compare the on-disk > cylinder > > address stored in the header with the cylinder selected by the RK8E's > > address register) please let me know. > > I think you can ignore the actual CRC logic here. Just treat the CRC > register as a shift register. It is shifted in-sync with the data coming > off > the disk, in this case the header word that contains the cylinder address. > Thanks -- that's kind of what I'd gathered from looking at the schematics and reading the service docs, but I wasn't 100% sure. > > Look at page 25 of the RK8-E engineering drawings (Oct72) on bitsavers. > It's sheet D04 (Major Registers PCB). > > The header word bits (from the disk) are compared with the contents of the > the shift register one bit at a time by E24c. The output of that goes to > E34b > (D input). E34b starts off clear, and remains clear while the bits agree. > If > there is a difference in the bits (cylinder address is not right) then > E34b sets. The Q/ output goes low, pulling the S/ input (pin 10) low. This > forces E34b to remain set (The S/ and R/ direct inputs will override the > D input). So after all the bits have been compared, E34b is set if there > was > an error. > Thanks. So I'm trying to figure out what components in this path could cause the behavior I'm seeing. To reiterate my original mail: "On cylinder 128 and 192 and very infrequently on cylinder 64 it will get a cylinder mismatch when doing the seek. When running the formatter during the verification pass, on cyls 64 and 128 if I retry the read it'll continue without issues, but it's never successful on a retry on cylinder 192." Clearly something with the two MSBs of the cylinder address is amiss. I had made a guess that the 7496 at E14 might be at fault (some weird crosstalk between various bits on the SETx signals perhaps) since this takes in EXT CYL ADDRS and BDATA0 (the top two bits of the cylinder address when loading the Disk Address Register via an IOT 67x3. I replaced it to no effect. It seems clear to me that the shift registers themselves are operating OK -- otherwise I'd be seeing CRC errors fairly frequently when reading sectors off the disk, and I'm not. It seems that the DEC380 bus ICs (E13, E22, etc) for the BDATAx signals that eventually get fed into the CRC shift registers must be OK or else the actual data on the disk would end up randomly corrupted, and that's not happening. I'm looking for something that could only fail when only bits 6 and/or 7 (or 0 and 1 in DEC parlance) of the cylinder address are set, but I'm not seeing anything. Anyway, further debugging is in my future... thanks again for the input. Thanks, Josh > > -tony > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 16:06:46 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 22:06:46 +0000 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 9 Dec 2018, at 21:40, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 > > 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? It might be just me, but those look like they?ve got great big holes cut in them? -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Dec 9 16:16:38 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2018 16:16:38 -0600 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C0D9446.1080208@pico-systems.com> On 12/09/2018 04:06 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> On 9 Dec 2018, at 21:40, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> >> Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 >> >> 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? > > It might be just me, but those look like they?ve got great big holes cut in them? > I didn't see any holes. And, yes, 8" floppies are SUPPOSED to have a big hole in the center. Anyway, the labels indicate they have diagnostic programs. Jon From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 16:23:04 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 16:23:04 -0600 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: <5C0D9446.1080208@pico-systems.com> References: <5C0D9446.1080208@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > > prolly worth rescueing From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 9 16:29:11 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 14:29:11 -0800 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5c4329eb-d8a9-edc1-be66-6e6c9aec5777@bitsavers.org> I will be bidding on these On 12/9/18 1:40 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 > > 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Dec 9 16:40:06 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 14:40:06 -0800 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F51797F-C299-49A2-8301-173F118FCF37@shaw.ca> On 2018-Dec-09, at 2:06 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> On 9 Dec 2018, at 21:40, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> >> Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 >> >> 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? > > It might be just me, but those look like they?ve got great big holes cut in them? > If you're thinking of the blue 'slashes' near the horizontal middle of the disks that look like the back of the pouch showing through a hole cut in the disk, I think those are actually tabs on the back of the pouch extending up in front of the next disk back, kind of like file folder tabs. Don't think I've seen pouches with that before but probably intended to make it easy to grab a disk by the pouch when they're all down in the box. Look at the magnified view of the 3rd pic. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 16:47:33 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 22:47:33 +0000 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: <4F51797F-C299-49A2-8301-173F118FCF37@shaw.ca> References: <4F51797F-C299-49A2-8301-173F118FCF37@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <885DFEF6-1838-4FCF-9889-7B10745F393A@gmail.com> > On 9 Dec 2018, at 22:40, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > On 2018-Dec-09, at 2:06 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >>> On 9 Dec 2018, at 21:40, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 >>> >>> 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? >> >> It might be just me, but those look like they?ve got great big holes cut in them? >> > > If you're thinking of the blue 'slashes' near the horizontal middle of the disks that look like the back of the pouch showing through a hole cut in the disk, I think those are actually tabs on the back of the pouch extending up in front of the next disk back, kind of like file folder tabs. > Don't think I've seen pouches with that before but probably intended to make it easy to grab a disk by the pouch when they're all down in the box. > Look at the magnified view of the 3rd pic. Ah yes, that makes much more sense. I can see it now. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sun Dec 9 17:30:18 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:30:18 +1100 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: <5c4329eb-d8a9-edc1-be66-6e6c9aec5777@bitsavers.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181210103018.0117b100@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 02:29 PM 9/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: >I will be bidding on these I hope you get them. Cheaply. And if so, please let us know if the data was recoverable. I have some quite old floppies to someday get around to attempting to recover. Really curious to see whether floppies suffer 'data evaporation' over time or not. FWIW, years ago a friend of mine found some important floppies of his had all developped mold on the magnetic surfaces. Which fouled read heads, making them useless. We found that slitting open the covers, taking out the disks and literally washing them in the bathtub with soap and water, drying, then putting back in the covers, worked! Guy >On 12/9/18 1:40 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 >> >> 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? >> > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 9 17:43:25 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 15:43:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181210103018.0117b100@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181210103018.0117b100@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: > At 02:29 PM 9/12/2018 -0800, Al wrote: >> I will be bidding on these On Mon, 10 Dec 2018, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > I hope you get them. Cheaply. > And if so, please let us know if the data was recoverable. I have some quite old > floppies to someday get around to attempting to recover. Really curious to see > whether floppies suffer 'data evaporation' over time or not. Disks of that time period tend to do well. Some later disks didn't fare so well, such as Wabash, or Verbatim BEFORE DATALIFE. > FWIW, years ago a friend of mine found some important floppies of his had all > developped mold on the magnetic surfaces. Which fouled read heads, making them > useless. We found that slitting open the covers, taking out the disks and > literally washing them in the bathtub with soap and water, drying, then putting > back in the covers, worked! and sometimes gentle baking can help (think food dehydrator) I have encountered a lot of disks that were not stored exceptionally well, that had developed difficulty turning in the jackets. Rubbing each edge of the jacket firmly perpendicularly against the edge of a tabletop, so that the jacket bowed out SLIGHTLY, often helped substantially. Then you can usually turn the cookie in the jacket with fingers through the center hole. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 17:53:36 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 17:53:36 -0600 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: <5c4329eb-d8a9-edc1-be66-6e6c9aec5777@bitsavers.org> References: <5c4329eb-d8a9-edc1-be66-6e6c9aec5777@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: theres a make an offer thing on it why not just use that On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 5:24 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I will be bidding on these > > On 12/9/18 1:40 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 > > > > 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 9 18:11:16 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 16:11:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: References: <5c4329eb-d8a9-edc1-be66-6e6c9aec5777@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Dec 2018, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > theres a make an offer thing on it why not just use that Because a "make an offer" can carry some risks of OFFENDING the seller, if they had thought that the value was not in the same general range as your offer. Not much known history with that seller. If nobody else bids, then it will be cheap, other than the shipping (the seller does not seem to know about media mail: "Computer-readable media containing prerecorded information") From seefriek at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 18:21:10 2018 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 19:21:10 -0500 Subject: SunOS 2.4 Exploit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe SunOS 2.4 is old enough all you need to do is delete the password hash from /etc/passwd to log in without a password. KJ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 9 19:05:08 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 17:05:08 -0800 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181210103018.0117b100@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181210103018.0117b100@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 12/9/18 3:30 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > FWIW, years ago a friend of mine found some important floppies of his had all > developped mold on the magnetic surfaces. Which fouled read heads, making them > useless. We found that slitting open the covers, taking out the disks and > literally washing them in the bathtub with soap and water, drying, then putting > back in the covers, worked! Back in the day, I was working with a group on a four-month project, where the final version on 8" floppies of the (source) software was put on display for a little celebration. Management sprang for bottles of bubbly, some munchies and some T-shirts--and the department had a small party. What no one noticed until the next day was that the stack of floppies had been soaked through with champagne, and put away for the weekend. Monday arrived--and the disks were a sticky mess. Fortunately, the treatment of washing and re-jacketing did the trick. But there were some very nervous people in the meantime. Needless to say, we made several backup sets and sent two of them off to the vault. --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 21:09:30 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 21:09:30 -0600 Subject: chasing down an old game In-Reply-To: <87FEA94F-BE81-476A-9BAC-5428DBFCA1ED@me.com> References: <62C01AFF-C280-4BA5-91A5-34B23B696337@csp-partnership.co.uk> <87FEA94F-BE81-476A-9BAC-5428DBFCA1ED@me.com> Message-ID: I had a version that played on the VT11. Still trying to find it. Paul On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 7:56 AM Kevin McQuiggin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Might be the old ?Star Trek? game? It is still around, I think. > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Dec 9, 2018, at 01:20, Dr Iain Maoileoin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Many many years ago in a distant galaxy (called Strathclyde University > Computer Science) we ran a game on the > > PDPs. It was great at testing out terminal line speed handing and > debugging curses (well that is what we told the > > bosses). > > > > I remember the game as being called ?search?. But since we had the > source code it could have been anything. > > > > It was played on 24 x 80 dumb terminals. It was multi user. In the > game you moved around the universe in your > > craft - the display was a kind of 3-D picture (you got closer to a plant > and the planet got bigger - try drawing increasing > > circles on a 24x80!). > > > > You could travel through the universe shooting other craft (friend of > foe). The only craft name I think I remember is > > ?shankers? - becuase we had source a lot of the craft names turned into > locally relevant names. > > > > You could team up with other players and (1 line) communication with a > group or with that player. > > > > I have searched (on and off) for the game. > > > > I cant find anything like it. > > > > I would like it to test out the DZ cards on my PDP! - OK that is my > excuse ;-) > > > > Is anybody aware of what I am talking about? Does anyone have any old > code anywhere? > > > > Aye, it was not as good as the old GT40 - but it was a different era. > > > > > > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 10 00:43:28 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:43:28 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e rebuild - update. Message-ID: <5B321EA00F2DD1E0@rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Went to toggle in the RIM loader ? huh ! Memory address 04 stuck low. So either try another 4k core (after changing the jumpers) or... Trace the signal path. What do we think? Rod Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 10 02:35:10 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 09:35:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: SunOS 2.4 Exploit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Dec 2018, Ken Seefried wrote: > I believe SunOS 2.4 is old enough all you need to do is delete the > password hash from /etc/passwd to log in without a password. Please tell me more: what is SunOS 2.4? I know of SunOS (1.x, 2.0, 3.x, 4.x) and Solaris (1.x and 2.x). Or do you mean Solaris 2.4 (i.e. SunOS 5.4)? Christian From guykd at optusnet.com.au Mon Dec 10 08:52:00 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 01:52:00 +1100 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: References: <5c4329eb-d8a9-edc1-be66-6e6c9aec5777@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181211015200.01102618@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 04:11 PM 9/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 9 Dec 2018, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >> theres a make an offer thing on it why not just use that > >Because a "make an offer" can carry some risks of OFFENDING the seller, if >they had thought that the value was not in the same general range as your >offer. >Not much known history with that seller. I've never encountered that. When I'm ebay buying I routinely make offers that are much less than the list price (if it's fairly high.) Sometimes they accept. Just be polite and nice in your message with the offer, explain why it's a fair offer from your perspective. Al, why not offer $5 or $10, explain you want to try data recovery for bitsavers, but the disks may well be unreadable. It now has 5 watchers. Maybe they are all members of this list, maybe not. I assume you are aware of snipe-bidding services? Some of those watchers may be too, but you won't know till after the end. I've used bidnapper in the past very successfully. >If nobody else bids, then it will be cheap, other than the shipping (the >seller does not seem to know about media mail: "Computer-readable media >containing prerecorded information") He will know if you tell him. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 09:00:39 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:00:39 -0500 Subject: Documation TM200 card reader - pinch roller restoration In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181018113526.00dc9358@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181018113526.00dc9358@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 8:40 PM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Derived from those the correct pinch roller diameter is 27.20 mm. > Notes here: http://everist.org/NobLog/20180922_data_in_holes.htm#rub > > It seems there's a few people who need new M200 rollers. > Once/if I perfect a successful method of making replacements I'll > offer them for postage and a few dollars. But I'm in Australia. Any stories of success? I _just_ fired up my M-200 and on the top, the second roller looks good and firm but not hardened. The first roller is getting gummy and is not to be trusted. It's not shedding onto cards but that will assuredly change. I've been reading about the procedure to remove the block the capstans are mounted to. I see they want a guide shim made from a stack of cards (5? 7?) cut to a certain size (2"x5", I think). In the day, it would have been easy to score blank or discarded used cards and make a stack. Today, I might consider making an alignment shim from index cards and measure the total thickness rather than cut up punched cards. > Or, there's this guy in the USA: http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ > Now the correct OD is known he's an alternative, with real rubber. > (Maybe my end result will be rubber too. That remains to be seen.) I looked into that - I'm sure the results are of excellent quality, but he appears to want $35 per roller and $5 shipping per order. There are 4 capstans so that's close to $150 USD. I'd rather find a solution in the $50 range. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 09:20:52 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:20:52 -0500 Subject: Documation card readers for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:24 PM Kyle Owen wrote: > If anyone here does get one, I've got a simple Arduino UNO program that > interfaces to the parallel output and sends fully decoded information over > USB at quite high speeds. I'm interested in that! I was designing one in my head this weekend. Much better to stand on the shoulders of giants! > I'm also working on getting a cable made to hook up to the M843 CR8-E > punched card reader interface for the PDP-8/E, but that's a project for > another day (year?). I have an M8291 CR-11 board (untested) but no cable. Same cable as the M843 AFAIK (documented as such). The interesting thing about my M-200 is it has a factory mod - a 6802-based parallel-serial board, mounted on an internal 44-pin 0.156"-spacing connector, so rather than remove that and use an external cable, I have the option of making my own card for the socket with a 40-pin Berg connector and using a straight 40-pin cable to the M8291 or M843. But since mine is punched-cards only (not mark-sense cards), I'm not that likely to punch a lot of card decks for mine. Once I read 3-4 decks for a local buddy, I don't really have "next use" for my reader. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 10 10:39:44 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:39:44 -0800 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181211015200.01102618@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <5c4329eb-d8a9-edc1-be66-6e6c9aec5777@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20181211015200.01102618@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1289e6a0-a670-f951-d8cb-e9053c48d250@bitsavers.org> On 12/10/18 6:52 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Al, why not offer $5 or $10 I made a higher offer than that, still no reply. I've had very little luck making offers on auction items. BIN is a different story. I think eBay changed something so that making an offer on auctions became a default or something withing the past few months and it drives me crazy since 'make an offer' in the past was always only associated with BIN. It is pretty pointless, since you can't make an offer once there has been a bid. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 10 10:41:39 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:41:39 -0800 Subject: Documation TM200 card reader - pinch roller restoration In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181018113526.00dc9358@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 12/10/18 7:00 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > I'd rather find a > solution in the $50 range. The CHM 1401 team replaced the rollers on their M1000 and I thought they got them from some source in LA I asked someone on the team about it, and never got a reply. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 12:02:10 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:02:10 -0500 Subject: Documation card readers for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:20 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: > The interesting thing about my M-200 is it has a factory mod... A little clarification of this after more reading. My card reader appears to be an M-600, with an internal Cardamation serial interface ("Feature 92"). I haven't found much in the way of specific info, just mentions here and there that Cardamation rented and sold card readers that were fitted with internal serial interfaces for local or remote (modem) use. I would love to read Cardamation docs, especially anything relating to setting up a modem or a local computer with the serial port requirements. Anyone have any? I can figure this out eventually of course, but reading the manuals is a fantastic way to not duplicate effort, should such manuals still exist in some form. -ethan From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 12:41:21 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:41:21 -0500 Subject: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer Message-ID: More of a computer list I know, but I need to clean out and this needs to go soon. Big ol tektronix scope on a cart. Was part of a community workshop, i cleared out all their equipment and have not had the time to repair it. I was planning to go over it and put it to work at my desk, but i decided to get a bigger desk and don't have the space for it. i picked up a hp logic analyzer that fits on the desk, and is more than capable for working on my pdp 11 and other minicomputer stuff. open to offers, come pick it up and its yours. https://i.postimg.cc/NFPC5cDG/scope-555.jpg located in Melbourne FL --Devin D. From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 15:28:24 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 22:28:24 +0100 Subject: GCC for pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: <88247639-B07E-4AB3-8E4F-9A624CC028A5@comcast.net> <78dca167-92b5-0ab6-e5a9-588e092dbc81@froghouse.org> Message-ID: Hello Paul! When I read this once upon during the summer I saw that the problems I once had reported was solved and it was great news. Really thankful that you did so much work with this! However I know tried to turn on optimizations and then it fails in a strange way. If you have some spare time maybe you could check why it fails on when 11/10 but not when set to 11/40. And it only fails for even powers of two above 16. It is the if that fails so if I remove that one it works. The bug report is https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=88435 /Mattis Den l?r 14 juli 2018 kl 19:51 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > > > > On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:46 AM, David Bridgham via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Hey, glad to hear of some improvement on GCC for the PDP-11. Last > > spring I ended up side-tracked on the QSIC project and working more on > > FPGA issues than writing PDP-11 code but that's going to change here at > > some point. I still want to put a soft PDP-11 into the FPGA as an I/O > > controller and will need to be writing code for it. > > > > For the moment, I'm off at my summer job in Alaska but when I get home > > this fall, it's back to working away on the QSIC and maybe my PDP-10 > > project where I'm thinking I may also use a soft PDP-11 as an I/O > > processor. Anyway, I'll grab up the new GCC and see if my issues with > > the 'volatile' keyword are still there. > > I didn't directly address anything like that, but it may well be that > things are better. "Volatile" is a very tricky area. There is detailed > discussion in the GCC manual about when volatile objects are accessed. You > may want to review that. Sometimes the rules are not precisely what you > might expect. > > paul > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 10 17:10:35 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 15:10:35 -0800 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland Message-ID: Cribbed from VCF: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 09:50:40 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:50:40 -0500 Subject: Seeking info for Cardamation parallel-serial board for card reader Message-ID: I have finally begun working with the card reader I picked up at a VCF some years back. Mechanically, it's sound, and the rollers are adequate for short term use (on the top, one is firm and in good shape, the other is starting the slide to goo but is working well enough for short-term testing). Mine came with a Cardamation-badged microprocessor board inside that's a serial converter and so far, I'm not getting any bits out of it. I am fairly certain that the product I have was sold as a Cardamation CF-600 based on pictures and speed. I found this on the Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20111003183529/http://www.cardamation.com/cardreaders.html The board in question has a 6802 processor, two 6821 PIA chips for the parallel interface, an EPROM, 1K of 2114 SRAM, an 8250 UART, and some misc parts for an RS-232 level shifter. Looking at the DB25F, there are no bits coming out of pin 2 or pin 3. I have yet to sit down and trace signals all the way back, but it may come to that. To assist my probings, while I can reverse-engineer the schematic, locating any docs would speed up this process greatly. On the board, there are markings that indicate it's a "Cardamation Feature 92 Rev 4 Assy No 023.0096-9". The EPROM has a paper label indicating that it's programmed with "V793NE76" whatever that means (likely the variations are largely centered around what EBCDIC-to-ASCII mapping was required). I will be dumping the EPROM to ensure it has sensible contents. Additionally, I'm always suspicious of 2114 SRAMs. They fail while sitting on the shelf. Fortunately everything is socketed, so even if it's an EIA line driver or a PIA or UART or even the CPU, replacement is trivial. There are no unobtanium parts on this outside of the programming of the EPROM. Absolutely worse case, I remove this serial interface and build my own with a modern MCU (I believe Kyle Owen has recently done this). If this was 10 years ago, I'd probably start with Cardamation to ask if they still had any docs on this stuff. I'm reading they closed up shop in 2011 so that's not an option. Digging around for old Cardamation articles in trade rags, I see one of their 300 card-per-minute units spewing the data at 19.2Kbps (I did try that speed, along with 38.4Kbps). I think the minimum speed is going to be 9600 bps, but as I'm not seeing any bits on an oscilliscope, I'm sure it's not the settings on the receive side (yet). -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 17:23:41 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 18:23:41 -0500 Subject: Documation card readers for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You have forgotten that I am the one that cleaned out Cardamation... -- Will On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 1:02 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:20 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The interesting thing about my M-200 is it has a factory mod... > > A little clarification of this after more reading. My card reader > appears to be an M-600, with an internal Cardamation serial interface > ("Feature 92"). I haven't found much in the way of specific info, > just mentions here and there that Cardamation rented and sold card > readers that were fitted with internal serial interfaces for local or > remote (modem) use. > > I would love to read Cardamation docs, especially anything relating to > setting up a modem or a local computer with the serial port > requirements. Anyone have any? I can figure this out eventually of > course, but reading the manuals is a fantastic way to not duplicate > effort, should such manuals still exist in some form. > > -ethan From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 20:24:04 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:24:04 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Would this system fit in a standard 19" wide equipment rack? =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Cribbed from VCF: > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 > > Chuck > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 20:33:04 2018 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:33:04 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is close enough to me to rescue, but I really don't have the space to store it. Will anyone take it if I hold it a while? On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:24 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Would this system fit in a standard 19" wide equipment rack? > > =] > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Cribbed from VCF: > > > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 > > > > Chuck > > > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 20:39:41 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 21:39:41 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm about an hour drive away and somewhat interested, but I don't have space for the desk unfortunately. -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Tony Aiuto wrote: > It is close enough to me to rescue, but I really don't have the space to > store it. > Will anyone take it if I hold it a while? > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:24 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Would this system fit in a standard 19" wide equipment rack? >> >> =] >> -- >> Anders Nelson >> >> +1 (517) 775-6129 >> >> www.erogear.com >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > Cribbed from VCF: >> > >> > >> > >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 >> > >> > Chuck >> > >> > From technoid6502 at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 21:26:36 2018 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 20:26:36 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <381dea4ed0d6f434ce5fb789c7cecbac35e29a17.camel@gmail.com> Yes. Sunos 5.4, Solaris 2.4. I got and installed Solaris 2.6 to replace that, iirc. I also ran Netbsd and OpenBsd on that machine, preferring OpenBSD, iirc the video drivers worked best on the frambuffer I had which was the base model color board. This all happened in the year 2000 or thereabouts. Jeff From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 22:03:25 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 23:03:25 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24F286AC-8E89-46DB-9522-FC6AF6BEA15A@gmail.com> That's pretty awesome in a desk unit. Always wanted to get a trs or altair desk unit. Hadn't realized there were many more. Unfortunately distance and wife would be prohibitive for my collection. :-( Sent from my Apple /////c > On Dec 10, 2018, at 6:10 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Cribbed from VCF: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 > > Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 22:05:27 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 23:05:27 -0500 Subject: Documation card readers for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:23 PM William Donzelli wrote: > > I would love to read Cardamation docs, especially anything relating to > > setting up a modem or a local computer with the serial port > > requirements. Anyone have any? > > You have forgotten that I am the one that cleaned out Cardamation... Forgotten or never knew (I checked my inbox and I don't see any announcements). So... we may have some business to conduct. Thanks for speaking up. -ethan From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 10 23:57:25 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 00:57:25 -0500 Subject: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1679bd76c4b-1ec4-4071@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> so many of these older scopes,are getting scrapped we have a few.. there was one made by tek. for example to be sold with TV broadcast gear we cherish here...gave a few others too.. but they do take up room....early scopes are good to display with early computers... in reality it was needed often as early comp. geAR had bad. mtf !.. ed#.... get one... save one... Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Monday, December 10, 2018 devin davison via cctalk wrote: More of a computer list I know, but I need to clean out and this needs to go soon. Big ol tektronix scope on a cart. Was part of a community workshop, i cleared out all their equipment and have not had the time to repair it. I was planning to go over it and put it to work at my desk, but i decided to get a bigger desk and don't have the space for it. i picked up a hp logic analyzer that fits on the desk, and is more than capable for working on my pdp 11 and other minicomputer stuff. open to offers, come pick it up and its yours. https://i.postimg.cc/NFPC5cDG/scope-555.jpg located in Melbourne FL --Devin D. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 00:17:21 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 01:17:21 -0500 Subject: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer In-Reply-To: <1679bd76c4b-1ec4-4071@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1679bd76c4b-1ec4-4071@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: The line about being used with an early computer as a display caught my eye. How would it be used as a display, what kind of graphics capability would it have? is there an interface for the thing for the pdp 11 or a modcomp? Those are the old systems i have on hand that i might be able to interface to it. Trying to find a good home for it. I just went through the back room and found another of a similar design, ill post back with that one too. I was not even aware i had two of them, quite odd when you can misplace/ miscount something so large. On Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 12:57 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > so many of these older scopes,are getting scrapped we have a few.. there > was one made by tek. for example to be sold with TV broadcast gear we > cherish here...gave a few others too.. but they do take up room....early > scopes are good to display with early computers... in reality it was needed > often as early comp. geAR had bad. mtf !.. > ed#.... get one... save one... > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > > On Monday, December 10, 2018 devin davison via cctalk cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > More of a computer list I know, but I need to clean out and this needs to > go soon. Big ol tektronix scope on a cart. Was part of a community > workshop, i cleared out all their equipment and have not had the time to > repair it. I was planning to go over it and put it to work at my desk, but > i decided to get a bigger desk and don't have the space for it. i picked > up a hp logic analyzer that fits on the desk, and is more than capable for > working on my pdp 11 and other minicomputer stuff. > > open to offers, come pick it up and its yours. > > https://i.postimg.cc/NFPC5cDG/scope-555.jpg > > located in Melbourne FL > > --Devin D. > From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Dec 11 00:30:23 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 01:30:23 -0500 Subject: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1679bf599d1-1ec2-3f8a@webjas-vaa086.srv.aolmail.net> display as in an artifact display. any really early system of large stature especally tube logic... had a se or ce living there and scope on cart was always seen... Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Monday, December 10, 2018 devin davison wrote: The line about being used with an early computer as a display caught my eye. How would it be used as a display, what kind of graphics capability would it have? is there an interface for the thing for the pdp 11 or a modcomp? Those are the old systems i have on hand that i might be able to interface to it. Trying to find a good home for it. I just went through the back room and found another of a similar design, ill post back with that one too. I was not even aware i had two of them, quite odd when you can misplace/ miscount something so large. On Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 12:57 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: so many of these older scopes,are getting scrapped we have a few.. there was one made by tek. for example to be sold with TV broadcast gear we cherish here...gave a few others too.. but they do take up room....early scopes are good to display with early computers... in reality it was needed often as early comp. geAR had bad.? mtf !.. ed#....? get one... save one... Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Monday, December 10, 2018 devin davison via cctalk wrote: More of a computer list I know, but I need to clean out and this needs to go soon. Big ol tektronix scope on a cart. Was part of a community workshop, i cleared out all their equipment and have not had the time to repair it. I was planning to go over it and put it to work at my desk, but i decided to get a bigger desk and don't have the space for it. i picked up a hp logic analyzer that fits on the desk, and is more than capable for working on my pdp 11 and other minicomputer stuff. open to offers, come pick it up and its yours. https://i.postimg.cc/NFPC5cDG/scope-555.jpg located in Melbourne FL --Devin D. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Dec 11 06:59:11 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:59:11 -0500 Subject: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer In-Reply-To: References: <1679bd76c4b-1ec4-4071@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <4b0d7ee2-de36-f062-f149-9d458a817a85@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-12-11 1:17 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > The line about being used with an early computer as a display caught my > eye. How would it be used as a display, what kind of graphics capability > would it have? is there an interface for the thing for the pdp 11 or a > modcomp? Those are the old systems i have on hand that i might be able to > interface to it. A scope is at heart an electrostatic CRT with X and Y deflection (and perhaps Z axis blanking control). Many older systems did have such displays -- the PDP-1 is a well known example (e.g. see Marc and Lyle's CHM demo on YT[1]). Imlac PDS-1 is another. And before _digital_ systems, scopes or X-Y displays were a typical output medium for _analog_ computers. For digital computers, output is point plotting, vector drawing, and/or character generation depending on the sophistication (= cost) of the hardware involved. You'd also need to find or write suitable software :) Yes, there were interface cards for PDP-11, such as AA11 (dual DACs). Several manufacturers including Tektronix and HP made dedicated X-Y displays for computer use. These are smaller than oscilloscopes as relatively little supporting hardware is required for this function. If anyone has budget to experiment with this, I know that Sphere[2] in West Kelowna, BC, has a few X-Y displays still in stock. With some cleverness it's also possible to modify magnetic deflection CRT's for vector use[3]. But I hope the Tek 555's can find a good home, they're beautiful instruments. I suggest posting on the TekScopes mailing list[4]. --Toby [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EWQYAfuMYw [2] http://www.sphere.bc.ca/ [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2O01mNVMN0 , https://www.thedefenderproject.com/other-arcade-games/building-a-vector-monitor-from-a-raster-tv/ [4] https://groups.io/g/TekScopes > > Trying to find a good home for it. I just went through the back room and > found another of a similar design, ill post back with that one too. I was > not even aware i had two of them, quite odd when you can misplace/ miscount > something so large. > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 12:57 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk > wrote: > >> so many of these older scopes,are getting scrapped we have a few.. there >> was one made by tek. for example to be sold with TV broadcast gear we >> cherish here...gave a few others too.. but they do take up room....early >> scopes are good to display with early computers... in reality it was needed >> often as early comp. geAR had bad. mtf !.. >> ed#.... get one... save one... >> >> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail >> >> On Monday, December 10, 2018 devin davison via cctalk > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> More of a computer list I know, but I need to clean out and this needs to >> go soon. Big ol tektronix scope on a cart. Was part of a community >> workshop, i cleared out all their equipment and have not had the time to >> repair it. I was planning to go over it and put it to work at my desk, but >> i decided to get a bigger desk and don't have the space for it. i picked >> up a hp logic analyzer that fits on the desk, and is more than capable for >> working on my pdp 11 and other minicomputer stuff. >> >> open to offers, come pick it up and its yours. >> >> https://i.postimg.cc/NFPC5cDG/scope-555.jpg >> >> located in Melbourne FL >> >> --Devin D. >> > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 07:04:03 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 08:04:03 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had one of those quite a few years ago. The desk comes apart fairly easily. The main unit is just a standard shorty 19" rack. -- Will On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:34 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > I'm about an hour drive away and somewhat interested, but I don't have > space for the desk unfortunately. > > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Tony Aiuto wrote: > > > It is close enough to me to rescue, but I really don't have the space to > > store it. > > Will anyone take it if I hold it a while? > > > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:24 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Would this system fit in a standard 19" wide equipment rack? > >> > >> =] > >> -- > >> Anders Nelson > >> > >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > >> > >> www.erogear.com > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> > Cribbed from VCF: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 > >> > > >> > Chuck > >> > > >> > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Dec 11 08:15:04 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 09:15:04 -0500 Subject: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer In-Reply-To: <4b0d7ee2-de36-f062-f149-9d458a817a85@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1679bd76c4b-1ec4-4071@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> <4b0d7ee2-de36-f062-f149-9d458a817a85@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <0E55CD28-17EB-45A6-AC7F-F64A711188BC@comcast.net> > On Dec 11, 2018, at 7:59 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > On 2018-12-11 1:17 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: >> The line about being used with an early computer as a display caught my >> eye. How would it be used as a display, what kind of graphics capability >> would it have? is there an interface for the thing for the pdp 11 or a >> modcomp? Those are the old systems i have on hand that i might be able to >> interface to it. > > A scope is at heart an electrostatic CRT with X and Y deflection (and > perhaps Z axis blanking control). Many older systems did have such > displays -- the PDP-1 is a well known example (e.g. see Marc and Lyle's > CHM demo on YT[1]). Imlac PDS-1 is another. And before _digital_ > systems, scopes or X-Y displays were a typical output medium for > _analog_ computers. > > For digital computers, output is point plotting, vector drawing, and/or > character generation depending on the sophistication (= cost) of the > hardware involved. You'd also need to find or write suitable software :) > > Yes, there were interface cards for PDP-11, such as AA11 (dual DACs). I made such a setup in college: we had an 11/20 with AA11 (and other lab I/O gear). I hooked those up to the X/Y inputs of a scope, and a digital I/O line to the Z input. Then loaded coordinate pairs into a buffer on the RC11 disk, which was set up to do DMA directly to the AA11 data CSR. Worked nicely, and with low overhead on a machine that certainly could not afford to do refresh in software. The classic example of a computer display like that is the CDC 6000 mainframe console. That is essentially a pair of oversized oscilloscopes (with electrostatic deflection), with their X/Y inputs driven by a dedicated display controller that includes a vector character generator. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 11 11:33:49 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 09:33:49 -0800 Subject: Genrad 2511 Vibration Control System In-Reply-To: References: <12e88f17-afda-95bb-2ac8-b4b763684ea8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Another collector in the area had the basic service manual for the 2515 which is now up under http://bitsavers.org/test_equipment/genrad/25xx I'm working on postprocessing the softwar manual this morning There is a second volume 2515-0102 which contains the schematics. I hadn't noticed this before, but Tucker Electronics closed this past summer :-( who used to be a good source for manuals. I also was given a 2517 unit this morning. > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018, 6:16 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I doubt I'll ever find docs for it though. > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 12:43:01 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 12:43:01 -0600 Subject: anyone seen this 11/70 panel on epay? Message-ID: iust noticed this apear on ebay if anyones looking for a 11/70 front panel https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-70-DataSystem-570-Computer-Front-Panel-Console-Bezel/323586750740?hash=item4b5745f914:g:V-AAAOSwWXFb55rt:rk:1:pf:0 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Dec 11 14:30:19 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 15:30:19 -0500 Subject: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer In-Reply-To: <0E55CD28-17EB-45A6-AC7F-F64A711188BC@comcast.net> References: <1679bd76c4b-1ec4-4071@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> <4b0d7ee2-de36-f062-f149-9d458a817a85@telegraphics.com.au> <0E55CD28-17EB-45A6-AC7F-F64A711188BC@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2018-12-11 9:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Dec 11, 2018, at 7:59 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 2018-12-11 1:17 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: >>> The line about being used with an early computer as a display caught my >>> eye. How would it be used as a display, what kind of graphics capability >>> would it have? is there an interface for the thing for the pdp 11 or a >>> modcomp? Those are the old systems i have on hand that i might be able to >>> interface to it. >> >> A scope is at heart an electrostatic CRT with X and Y deflection ... >> >> For digital computers, output is point plotting, vector drawing, and/or >> character generation depending on the sophistication (= cost) of the >> hardware involved. You'd also need to find or write suitable software :) >> >> Yes, there were interface cards for PDP-11, such as AA11 (dual DACs). > > I made such a setup in college: we had an 11/20 with AA11 (and other lab I/O gear). I hooked those up to the X/Y inputs of a scope, and a digital I/O line to the Z input. Then loaded coordinate pairs into a buffer on the RC11 disk, which was set up to do DMA directly to the AA11 data CSR. Worked nicely, and with low overhead on a machine that certainly could not afford to do refresh in software. Curious what year that was, if you don't mind disclosing? > > The classic example of a computer display like that is the CDC 6000 mainframe console. That is essentially a pair of oversized oscilloscopes (with electrostatic deflection), with their X/Y inputs driven by a dedicated display controller that includes a vector character generator. Definitely a standout example. And Tektronix vector terminals were also a whole other category of sophistication. --Toby > > paul > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Dec 11 15:33:52 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 16:33:52 -0500 Subject: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer In-Reply-To: References: <1679bd76c4b-1ec4-4071@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> <4b0d7ee2-de36-f062-f149-9d458a817a85@telegraphics.com.au> <0E55CD28-17EB-45A6-AC7F-F64A711188BC@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4405FF86-A3D0-43B8-9C66-FD79000DDF4F@comcast.net> > On Dec 11, 2018, at 3:30 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 2018-12-11 9:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Dec 11, 2018, at 7:59 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 2018-12-11 1:17 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: >>>> The line about being used with an early computer as a display caught my >>>> eye. How would it be used as a display, what kind of graphics capability >>>> would it have? is there an interface for the thing for the pdp 11 or a >>>> modcomp? Those are the old systems i have on hand that i might be able to >>>> interface to it. >>> >>> A scope is at heart an electrostatic CRT with X and Y deflection ... >>> >>> For digital computers, output is point plotting, vector drawing, and/or >>> character generation depending on the sophistication (= cost) of the >>> hardware involved. You'd also need to find or write suitable software :) >>> >>> Yes, there were interface cards for PDP-11, such as AA11 (dual DACs). >> >> I made such a setup in college: we had an 11/20 with AA11 (and other lab I/O gear). I hooked those up to the X/Y inputs of a scope, and a digital I/O line to the Z input. Then loaded coordinate pairs into a buffer on the RC11 disk, which was set up to do DMA directly to the AA11 data CSR. Worked nicely, and with low overhead on a machine that certainly could not afford to do refresh in software. > > Curious what year that was, if you don't mind disclosing? 1974, at Lawrence University which had that 11/20 (with 8 kW of memory, DECtape, RC11, AA11, AD01, DR11, and ASR33) in the physics lab. paul From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 11 15:43:52 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 08:43:52 +1100 Subject: Genrad 2511 Vibration Control System In-Reply-To: References: <12e88f17-afda-95bb-2ac8-b4b763684ea8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181212084352.00df7210@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 09:33 AM 11/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: >I hadn't noticed this before, but Tucker Electronics closed this past summer :-( >who used to be a good source for manuals. Oh no! Not them too. http://www.manualsplus.com is gone. And they dumpstered most of their huge warehouse full of manuals, despite a small and way too-late effort by some volunteers to rescue what they could. That was an utter disaster. Being on the other side of the planet (and not wealthy) sucks when I have to watch catastrophes like that happen. I thought that left Your Manual Source, but their URLs http://www.consolidatedsurplus.com/ and http://www.yourmanualsource.com don't seem to be functioning now. One is a domain squatter. What happened to them, does anyone know? Does anyone have a list of remaining sellers of original paper manuals? Especialy for instrument lines including Tek, HP, GR, etc. With all due respect to bitsavers and other archives of scanned manuals, I have a low opinion of current document scanning practices and archiving file formats. Two tone (fax mode) is sad, even if the resolution is high enough to be able to read the text. Not preserving gray levels on edges means the character outlines are ruined, gone forever. Not to mention what it does to screen printed images, or the lack of a format for combined text image plus searchable content. Hence I believe it's tragic and a cultural crime to be destroying old physical manuals. At all and especially while the technology of document capture and file formats is still so primitive. PDF... don't get me started on that unspeakable horror of a format. For me, the timing is terrible. I acquire what I can, mostly manuals for equipment I have, though my resources are very limited. I'm poor atm, but expect a considerable inheritance in next few years. I'd hoped the big manuals stores would still be around by then, and I could work on scanning significant amounts 'my way.' But it looks like I'm too late. Dammit. Guy From turing at shaw.ca Tue Dec 11 15:46:56 2018 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 14:46:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer In-Reply-To: <4405FF86-A3D0-43B8-9C66-FD79000DDF4F@comcast.net> References: <1679bd76c4b-1ec4-4071@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> <4b0d7ee2-de36-f062-f149-9d458a817a85@telegraphics.com.au> <0E55CD28-17EB-45A6-AC7F-F64A711188BC@comcast.net> <4405FF86-A3D0-43B8-9C66-FD79000DDF4F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1019165404.91112612.1544564816746.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> I was doing something similar, on a PDP8/L driving a Tektronix scope with a camera attached, using code written in Focal - University of Washington, 1972. I learned a great deal about font generation, given that the code had to trace out each letter shape via X, Y coordinates... From: "cctalk" To: "Toby Thain" Cc: "cctalk" Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 1:33:52 PM Subject: Re: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer > On Dec 11, 2018, at 3:30 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 2018-12-11 9:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Dec 11, 2018, at 7:59 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 2018-12-11 1:17 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: >>>> The line about being used with an early computer as a display caught my >>>> eye. How would it be used as a display, what kind of graphics capability >>>> would it have? is there an interface for the thing for the pdp 11 or a >>>> modcomp? Those are the old systems i have on hand that i might be able to >>>> interface to it. >>> >>> A scope is at heart an electrostatic CRT with X and Y deflection ... >>> >>> For digital computers, output is point plotting, vector drawing, and/or >>> character generation depending on the sophistication (= cost) of the >>> hardware involved. You'd also need to find or write suitable software :) >>> >>> Yes, there were interface cards for PDP-11, such as AA11 (dual DACs). >> >> I made such a setup in college: we had an 11/20 with AA11 (and other lab I/O gear). I hooked those up to the X/Y inputs of a scope, and a digital I/O line to the Z input. Then loaded coordinate pairs into a buffer on the RC11 disk, which was set up to do DMA directly to the AA11 data CSR. Worked nicely, and with low overhead on a machine that certainly could not afford to do refresh in software. > > Curious what year that was, if you don't mind disclosing? 1974, at Lawrence University which had that 11/20 (with 8 kW of memory, DECtape, RC11, AA11, AD01, DR11, and ASR33) in the physics lab. paul From ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com Tue Dec 11 17:37:16 2018 From: ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com (Aaron Taylor) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 15:37:16 -0800 Subject: Genrad 2511 Vibration Control System In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181212084352.00df7210@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <12e88f17-afda-95bb-2ac8-b4b763684ea8@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20181212084352.00df7210@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20181211233716.GE39560@lagavulin> On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 08:43:52AM +1100, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 09:33 AM 11/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: > >I hadn't noticed this before, but Tucker Electronics closed this past summer :-( > >who used to be a good source for manuals. > > Does anyone have a list of remaining sellers of original paper manuals? Especialy for instrument > lines including Tek, HP, GR, etc. Dave at Artek Media/Manuals is a good resource. He's managed to find a couple hardcopy manuals for me that no one else could and offered reasonable prices if I allowed him to scan them first. The quality/usability of his scans is excellent. http://artekmanuals.com/ Aaron From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 11 18:34:06 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 11:34:06 +1100 Subject: Genrad 2511 Vibration Control System In-Reply-To: <20181211233716.GE39560@lagavulin> References: <3.0.6.32.20181212084352.00df7210@mail.optusnet.com.au> <12e88f17-afda-95bb-2ac8-b4b763684ea8@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20181212084352.00df7210@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181212113406.00e26b90@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 03:37 PM 11/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: >> Does anyone have a list of remaining sellers of original paper manuals? Especialy for instrument >> lines including Tek, HP, GR, etc. > >Dave at Artek Media/Manuals is a good resource. He's managed to find a couple >hardcopy manuals for me that no one else could and offered reasonable prices if >I allowed him to scan them first. The quality/usability of his scans is >excellent. > >http://artekmanuals.com/ > >Aaron OK, I have bought digitized manuals from artek in the past, and agree they are pretty good by general standards. Similar to bitsaver's own scans. Didn't know he also may sell original physical copies. But from your description he isn't maintaining a library of the manuals himself, just finding them as needed. So that isn't a solution since his sources will dry up too. And then there's the whole 'schematics for these boards omitted' issue. HP's cursed 'blue stripe program' for instance. "We will swap these boards, so you don't need schematics in the service manual." Fat lot of good that is now that 'real HP' no longer exists. Guy From cramcram at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 10:34:16 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 08:34:16 -0800 Subject: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer In-Reply-To: <0E55CD28-17EB-45A6-AC7F-F64A711188BC@comcast.net> References: <1679bd76c4b-1ec4-4071@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> <4b0d7ee2-de36-f062-f149-9d458a817a85@telegraphics.com.au> <0E55CD28-17EB-45A6-AC7F-F64A711188BC@comcast.net> Message-ID: That's a beautiful old scope setup. I have a friend who collects this stuff but he is very low budget and on the opposite side of the country like me. Marc On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 6:15 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Dec 11, 2018, at 7:59 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 2018-12-11 1:17 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > >> The line about being used with an early computer as a display caught my > >> eye. How would it be used as a display, what kind of graphics capability > >> would it have? is there an interface for the thing for the pdp 11 or a > >> modcomp? Those are the old systems i have on hand that i might be able > to > >> interface to it. > > > > A scope is at heart an electrostatic CRT with X and Y deflection (and > > perhaps Z axis blanking control). Many older systems did have such > > displays -- the PDP-1 is a well known example (e.g. see Marc and Lyle's > > CHM demo on YT[1]). Imlac PDS-1 is another. And before _digital_ > > systems, scopes or X-Y displays were a typical output medium for > > _analog_ computers. > > > > For digital computers, output is point plotting, vector drawing, and/or > > character generation depending on the sophistication (= cost) of the > > hardware involved. You'd also need to find or write suitable software :) > > > > Yes, there were interface cards for PDP-11, such as AA11 (dual DACs). > > I made such a setup in college: we had an 11/20 with AA11 (and other lab > I/O gear). I hooked those up to the X/Y inputs of a scope, and a digital > I/O line to the Z input. Then loaded coordinate pairs into a buffer on the > RC11 disk, which was set up to do DMA directly to the AA11 data CSR. > Worked nicely, and with low overhead on a machine that certainly could not > afford to do refresh in software. > > The classic example of a computer display like that is the CDC 6000 > mainframe console. That is essentially a pair of oversized oscilloscopes > (with electrostatic deflection), with their X/Y inputs driven by a > dedicated display controller that includes a vector character generator. > > paul > > > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Dec 12 00:30:05 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 17:30:05 +1100 Subject: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer In-Reply-To: References: <0E55CD28-17EB-45A6-AC7F-F64A711188BC@comcast.net> <1679bd76c4b-1ec4-4071@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> <4b0d7ee2-de36-f062-f149-9d458a817a85@telegraphics.com.au> <0E55CD28-17EB-45A6-AC7F-F64A711188BC@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181212173005.00e5ca48@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 08:34 AM 11/12/2018 -0800, Marc wrote: >That's a beautiful old scope setup. I have a friend who collects this >stuff but he is very low budget and on the opposite side of the country >like me. Heh. How about 'no budget, and opposite side of the world'? Do I win? From useddec at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 02:19:55 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 02:19:55 -0600 Subject: Documation card readers for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think I have the M8291, and maybe a M843 and a cable somewhere. Paul On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:05 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:23 PM William Donzelli > wrote: > > > I would love to read Cardamation docs, especially anything relating to > > > setting up a modem or a local computer with the serial port > > > requirements. Anyone have any? > > > > You have forgotten that I am the one that cleaned out Cardamation... > > Forgotten or never knew (I checked my inbox and I don't see any > announcements). > > So... we may have some business to conduct. > > Thanks for speaking up. > > -ethan > From dave at 661.org Wed Dec 12 06:58:32 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 12:58:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: P112 redesigned for Z280? Message-ID: My reply is at the bottom. Please put your reply there too. On Tue, 4 Dec 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 12/4/2018 1:17 PM, Tony Nicholson via cctalk wrote: >> Hello David >> >> I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180. >> >> It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this. He intends making the >> full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still working >> on preliminary web pages and documenting etc. No doubt he will provide you >> with more details. >> >> I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the Z280RC on >> the RetroBrew web site at >> https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc ) >> and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280. > > That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it? > Ben. That's got me thinking... Suppose I redesign the P112 board to take a Z280 CPU. Would you guys go for it? I'd like to come up with a way to use a socketed CPU or put a surface-mounted chip on a carrier board to allow greater versatility with playing with different Zilog chips. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 10:14:45 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 11:14:45 -0500 Subject: P112 redesigned for Z280? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <226cbc49-05bc-cfe6-2e9a-031001ac77ad@gmail.com> On 12/12/2018 07:58 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > My reply is at the bottom. > Please put your reply there too. > On Tue, 4 Dec 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/4/2018 1:17 PM, Tony Nicholson via cctalk wrote: >>> Hello David >>> >>> I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180. >>> >>> It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this.? He intends >>> making the >>> full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still >>> working >>> on preliminary web pages and documenting etc.? No doubt he will >>> provide you >>> with more details. >>> >>> I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the >>> Z280RC on >>> the RetroBrew web site at >>> https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc >>> ) >>> and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280. >> >> That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it? >> Ben. > > That's got me thinking... Suppose I redesign the P112 board to take a > Z280 CPU.? Would you guys go for it?? I'd like to come up with a way > to use a socketed CPU or put a surface-mounted chip on a carrier board > to allow greater versatility with playing with different Zilog chips. > I'd be interested in a Z280 system.? I have a few of the jlead (socketed format) chips of very late revision I've built around. ? The design work I used was started by Tim Olmstead. ?? The RSX system would likely run very well as Z280 offers larger memory, I&D space,? supervisor/use, and MMU so a real protected space OS is possible.? Allison From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 12:13:33 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 10:13:33 -0800 Subject: Documation card readers for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BA8D91E-EBB7-4775-BD5A-983EDE5999A9@gmail.com> Interested in the Arduino interface too. Will save me some time. Has it been posted anywhere? Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Ethan Dicks , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Monday, December 10, 2018 at 7:21 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Documation card readers for sale On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:24 PM Kyle Owen wrote: If anyone here does get one, I've got a simple Arduino UNO program that interfaces to the parallel output and sends fully decoded information over USB at quite high speeds. I'm interested in that! I was designing one in my head this weekend. Much better to stand on the shoulders of giants! I'm also working on getting a cable made to hook up to the M843 CR8-E punched card reader interface for the PDP-8/E, but that's a project for another day (year?). I have an M8291 CR-11 board (untested) but no cable. Same cable as the M843 AFAIK (documented as such). The interesting thing about my M-200 is it has a factory mod - a 6802-based parallel-serial board, mounted on an internal 44-pin 0.156"-spacing connector, so rather than remove that and use an external cable, I have the option of making my own card for the socket with a 40-pin Berg connector and using a straight 40-pin cable to the M8291 or M843. But since mine is punched-cards only (not mark-sense cards), I'm not that likely to punch a lot of card decks for mine. Once I read 3-4 decks for a local buddy, I don't really have "next use" for my reader. -ethan From connork at connorsdomain.com Wed Dec 12 12:27:58 2018 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (connork at connorsdomain.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 18:27:58 +0000 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> Alright, I think I will go for it. I am not too far from it being in Poughkeepsie. Always loved the desk machines, and I personally have another kinda parts Nova 4 that hopefully I can use to switch parts between to get one really nice machine :) -Connor K On 2018-12-11 13:04, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > I had one of those quite a few years ago. The desk comes apart fairly > easily. The main unit is just a standard shorty 19" rack. > > -- > Will > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:34 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I'm about an hour drive away and somewhat interested, but I don't have >> space for the desk unfortunately. >> >> -- >> Anders Nelson >> >> +1 (517) 775-6129 >> >> www.erogear.com >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Tony Aiuto >> wrote: >> >> > It is close enough to me to rescue, but I really don't have the space to >> > store it. >> > Will anyone take it if I hold it a while? >> > >> > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:24 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Would this system fit in a standard 19" wide equipment rack? >> >> >> >> =] >> >> -- >> >> Anders Nelson >> >> >> >> +1 (517) 775-6129 >> >> >> >> www.erogear.com >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < >> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Cribbed from VCF: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 >> >> > >> >> > Chuck >> >> > >> >> >> > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 13:21:26 2018 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 14:21:26 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: Shoot, was asking my wife if I could have it for Christmas to replace my regular desk in the family room :) But to keep the decor of our home a little more sane, I'll abstain from bidding and wish you best of luck instead! happy holidays and good luck! --jake On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 1:28 PM Connor Krukosky via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Alright, I think I will go for it. I am not too far from it being in > Poughkeepsie. > Always loved the desk machines, and I personally have another kinda > parts Nova 4 that hopefully I can use to switch parts between to get one > really nice machine :) > > -Connor K > > On 2018-12-11 13:04, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > I had one of those quite a few years ago. The desk comes apart fairly > > easily. The main unit is just a standard shorty 19" rack. > > > > -- > > Will > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:34 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >> I'm about an hour drive away and somewhat interested, but I don't have > >> space for the desk unfortunately. > >> > >> -- > >> Anders Nelson > >> > >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > >> > >> www.erogear.com > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Tony Aiuto > >> wrote: > >> > >> > It is close enough to me to rescue, but I really don't have the space > to > >> > store it. > >> > Will anyone take it if I hold it a while? > >> > > >> > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:24 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < > >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Would this system fit in a standard 19" wide equipment rack? > >> >> > >> >> =] > >> >> -- > >> >> Anders Nelson > >> >> > >> >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > >> >> > >> >> www.erogear.com > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > >> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > Cribbed from VCF: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 > >> >> > > >> >> > Chuck > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 13:27:30 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 14:27:30 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: How does a person program this computer? I assume there's no C compiler. Would one have to boot to a DOS, then load a compiler into RAM, then read program text into ram, them compile? I have less-than-zero experience with DG systems, but a higher-than-zero adoration for their design/pedigree. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:21 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Shoot, was asking my wife if I could have it for Christmas to replace my > regular desk in the family room :) > But to keep the decor of our home a little more sane, I'll abstain from > bidding and wish you best of luck instead! > > happy holidays and good luck! > --jake > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 1:28 PM Connor Krukosky via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Alright, I think I will go for it. I am not too far from it being in > > Poughkeepsie. > > Always loved the desk machines, and I personally have another kinda > > parts Nova 4 that hopefully I can use to switch parts between to get one > > really nice machine :) > > > > -Connor K > > > > On 2018-12-11 13:04, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > > I had one of those quite a few years ago. The desk comes apart fairly > > > easily. The main unit is just a standard shorty 19" rack. > > > > > > -- > > > Will > > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:34 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> I'm about an hour drive away and somewhat interested, but I don't have > > >> space for the desk unfortunately. > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Anders Nelson > > >> > > >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > > >> > > >> www.erogear.com > > >> > > >> > > >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Tony Aiuto > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > It is close enough to me to rescue, but I really don't have the > space > > to > > >> > store it. > > >> > Will anyone take it if I hold it a while? > > >> > > > >> > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:24 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < > > >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Would this system fit in a standard 19" wide equipment rack? > > >> >> > > >> >> =] > > >> >> -- > > >> >> Anders Nelson > > >> >> > > >> >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > > >> >> > > >> >> www.erogear.com > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > > >> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> > Cribbed from VCF: > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Chuck > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> > > > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 13:41:30 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 14:41:30 -0500 Subject: PET peve thing... Editors In-Reply-To: References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> The whole thing comes from a project for myself...? I wanted a very basic screen based editor written in 8080/8085/z80 asm and compact (as in under 4K).? I figured first lets inquire of the Internet to see if I need to and code exists... Well google is a rats bottom as now matter how you write it it either thinks your talking about ?assemblers, no i'm not. ?emulators, srsly? ?PC based editor, still not close ?HTML editors, aw come on now! ?ALS or any of the line editor (aka ED), yuck and I have that already... ? They must have existed how'ed all that CP/M code get written before Vedit or other programmers editors? So now I'm going to have to write my own as the "world search tools" are willfully dumb and stupid. Allison From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Dec 12 13:49:00 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 14:49:00 -0500 Subject: PET peve thing... Editors In-Reply-To: <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4505acf3-85de-ec56-9a0c-13a55ac09ead@e-bbes.com> On 2018-12-12 14:41, allison via cctalk wrote: > The whole thing comes from a project for myself...? > I wanted a very basic screen based editor written in 8080/8085/z80 asm > and compact > (as in under 4K).? I figured first lets inquire of the Internet to see > if I need to and code exists... Probably something like the "TEA an 8080/8085 Co-Resident Editor/Assembler" Have the book in the shelf, I think I used it once, and IIRC, the Source was once on the internet ... From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 12 14:00:07 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:00:07 -0500 Subject: PET peve thing... Editors In-Reply-To: <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2018-12-12 2:41 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > The whole thing comes from a project for myself...? > I wanted a very basic screen based editor written in 8080/8085/z80 asm > and compact > (as in under 4K).? I figured first lets inquire of the Internet to see > if I need to and code exists... > ... > They must have existed how'ed all that CP/M code get written before > Vedit or other programmers editors? Why _not_ use Vedit or WordMaster or... ? > So now I'm going to have to write my own as the "world search tools" are > willfully dumb and stupid. > > > > Allison > From spc at conman.org Wed Dec 12 14:04:15 2018 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:04:15 -0500 Subject: PET peve thing... Editors In-Reply-To: <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20181212200415.GA19974@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great allison via cctalk once stated: > The whole thing comes from a project for myself...? > I wanted a very basic screen based editor written in 8080/8085/z80 asm > and compact > (as in under 4K).? I figured first lets inquire of the Internet to see > if I need to and code exists... I remember typing in TED.ASM from one of the PC magazines in the late 80s. Yes, it's for MS-DOS, but: 1) The 8086 is somewhat, kind of, source compatible with the 8080/Z80 (if you squint hard enough) 2) It was 3K when assembled into TED.COM 3) Was full screen. And quite basic. I'm not sure how hard it would be to translate it to 8080/Z80. -spc From spc at conman.org Wed Dec 12 14:08:52 2018 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:08:52 -0500 Subject: PET peve thing... Editors In-Reply-To: <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20181212200852.GB19974@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great allison via cctalk once stated: > The whole thing comes from a project for myself...? > I wanted a very basic screen based editor written in 8080/8085/z80 asm > and compact > (as in under 4K).? I figured first lets inquire of the Internet to see > if I need to and code exists... There is this page: http://www.texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?CPMEditorFamily That might have what you want. -spc (On the basis that CP/M ran on the 8080/Z80 CPU ... ) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 14:11:45 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:11:45 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: While this is an absurdly small Data General Nova system for the era (at least it is not a microNova), you would run RDOS - not unlike a dual 8 inch floppy Z80 system of the day. -- Will On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:27 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > How does a person program this computer? I assume there's no C compiler. > > Would one have to boot to a DOS, then load a compiler into RAM, then read > program text into ram, them compile? > > I have less-than-zero experience with DG systems, but a higher-than-zero > adoration for their design/pedigree. > > =] > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:21 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Shoot, was asking my wife if I could have it for Christmas to replace my > > regular desk in the family room :) > > But to keep the decor of our home a little more sane, I'll abstain from > > bidding and wish you best of luck instead! > > > > happy holidays and good luck! > > --jake > > > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 1:28 PM Connor Krukosky via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Alright, I think I will go for it. I am not too far from it being in > > > Poughkeepsie. > > > Always loved the desk machines, and I personally have another kinda > > > parts Nova 4 that hopefully I can use to switch parts between to get one > > > really nice machine :) > > > > > > -Connor K > > > > > > On 2018-12-11 13:04, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > > > I had one of those quite a few years ago. The desk comes apart fairly > > > > easily. The main unit is just a standard shorty 19" rack. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Will > > > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:34 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> I'm about an hour drive away and somewhat interested, but I don't have > > > >> space for the desk unfortunately. > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Anders Nelson > > > >> > > > >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > > > >> > > > >> www.erogear.com > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Tony Aiuto > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > It is close enough to me to rescue, but I really don't have the > > space > > > to > > > >> > store it. > > > >> > Will anyone take it if I hold it a while? > > > >> > > > > >> > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:24 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < > > > >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >> Would this system fit in a standard 19" wide equipment rack? > > > >> >> > > > >> >> =] > > > >> >> -- > > > >> >> Anders Nelson > > > >> >> > > > >> >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > > > >> >> > > > >> >> www.erogear.com > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > > > >> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Cribbed from VCF: > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Chuck > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 14:58:18 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:58:18 -0500 Subject: PET peve thing... Editors In-Reply-To: <4505acf3-85de-ec56-9a0c-13a55ac09ead@e-bbes.com> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> <4505acf3-85de-ec56-9a0c-13a55ac09ead@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <52ece159-a5fc-55e6-d16b-158163236ca3@gmail.com> On 12/12/2018 02:49 PM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-12-12 14:41, allison via cctalk wrote: >> The whole thing comes from a project for myself...? >> I wanted a very basic screen based editor written in 8080/8085/z80 asm >> and compact >> (as in under 4K).? I figured first lets inquire of the Internet to see >> if I need to and code exists... > Probably something like the > "TEA an 8080/8085 Co-Resident Editor/Assembler" > > Have the book in the shelf, I think I used it once, > and IIRC, the Source was once on the internet ... I also have the book. TEA is both an assembler (not needed) and line oriented editor like ED (gag).? There are many others just like it others like it including EDASM (trs80), PT ALS-8, MITS Programming package 1 (and II), a similar package for IMSAI as well as Dave Dunfields ALPS.? None are screen oriented and all add the weight of an assembler. If I wanted ED I have it as its native and supplied with CP/M.? Best I can tell over the last 4 decades most people like me suffered it to get the system up and bought something a bit less painful.? And deleted ED. What would be worse?? Typing in TEA from the book, stripping the assembler and making it CP/M friendly. Since that seems rather high effort its easier to take SCS-1, ALPS, or ALS-8 as at least I have source on line. The project will be a z80 system and the boot device is a 32K EEProm with system and a very small disk image so every K of code I can save/avoid? is a program to fit in the available 24K.? Wit a little magic DDT, ASM, and an editor has to fit.? That's bridge code mostly as the next level is a large device (IDE/CF/SD). Seems simple but, not. Allison From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 15:05:09 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:05:09 -0500 Subject: P112 redesigned for Z280? terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <700b43e8-f5b9-7a96-10c1-a5e468cd7c4a@gmail.com> >> That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it? >> Ben. > Ben, look at Grant Searle's display system, not the Z80 CP/M but his three chip display system. Take two Atmel Atmega328Ps and a 74ls166? monitor and P2 keyboard required. That yields a 24line x 80char display that is a subset of Vt100/Ansii. Its not 99cents but at list prices under 7$ Monitor and keyboard not included. Or you can use an arduino with a 40char by 4 line LCD. Allison From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 15:18:01 2018 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:18:01 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: Conner: Since you are rescuing it, I will not bid. LMK if you change your mind so I can grab it before it goes to scrap. On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 3:25 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > While this is an absurdly small Data General Nova system for the era > (at least it is not a microNova), you would run RDOS - not unlike a > dual 8 inch floppy Z80 system of the day. > > -- > Will > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:27 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: > > > > How does a person program this computer? I assume there's no C compiler. > > > > Would one have to boot to a DOS, then load a compiler into RAM, then read > > program text into ram, them compile? > > > > I have less-than-zero experience with DG systems, but a higher-than-zero > > adoration for their design/pedigree. > > > > =] > > -- > > Anders Nelson > > > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > > > www.erogear.com > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:21 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Shoot, was asking my wife if I could have it for Christmas to replace > my > > > regular desk in the family room :) > > > But to keep the decor of our home a little more sane, I'll abstain from > > > bidding and wish you best of luck instead! > > > > > > happy holidays and good luck! > > > --jake > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 1:28 PM Connor Krukosky via cctalk < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Alright, I think I will go for it. I am not too far from it being in > > > > Poughkeepsie. > > > > Always loved the desk machines, and I personally have another kinda > > > > parts Nova 4 that hopefully I can use to switch parts between to get > one > > > > really nice machine :) > > > > > > > > -Connor K > > > > > > > > On 2018-12-11 13:04, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > > > > I had one of those quite a few years ago. The desk comes apart > fairly > > > > > easily. The main unit is just a standard shorty 19" rack. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Will > > > > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:34 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> I'm about an hour drive away and somewhat interested, but I don't > have > > > > >> space for the desk unfortunately. > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> Anders Nelson > > > > >> > > > > >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > > > > >> > > > > >> www.erogear.com > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Tony Aiuto > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > It is close enough to me to rescue, but I really don't have the > > > space > > > > to > > > > >> > store it. > > > > >> > Will anyone take it if I hold it a while? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:24 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < > > > > >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >> Would this system fit in a standard 19" wide equipment rack? > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> =] > > > > >> >> -- > > > > >> >> Anders Nelson > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> www.erogear.com > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > > > > >> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Cribbed from VCF: > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Chuck > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 20:20:58 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 21:20:58 -0500 Subject: PET peve thing... Editors In-Reply-To: <20181212200852.GB19974@brevard.conman.org> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> <20181212200852.GB19974@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <3fc4a956-f9c6-a3d5-b3a0-65e6183ca659@gmail.com> On 12/12/2018 03:08 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > It was thus said that the Great allison via cctalk once stated: >> The whole thing comes from a project for myself...? >> I wanted a very basic screen based editor written in 8080/8085/z80 asm >> and compact >> (as in under 4K).? I figured first lets inquire of the Internet to see >> if I need to and code exists... > There is this page: > > http://www.texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?CPMEditorFamily Its been bookmarked for years.? Lot of stuff there many dead links and some only lead to executables.? Many just repeats of the Walnutcreek CP/M CDrom and i've had that for well over 20 years. The real hunt was good links, source or source that could uncrunched, unLBR, UnLZH, Unhuffed, unarced or unarked. Most however lead to a compredded vversion of a executable only and exceeds the size of edit and the one from DRdobbs is large. regardless of the C compiler used. > That might have what you want. Finally found the source for Edit.? Not a favorite as its line but i can build in a simple flavor of VTECO with it? Its from SIGM vol16.?? My usual editor for CP/M is VEDIT and has been since late '79.? In between that KED on RT-11 and TPU on VAX/VMS it wasn't till the mid 386 era that I had to use a PC for anything and it was VEDIT there too till winders then Notepad+ Why not Vedit, 11K. Linux is generally gedit with language selections added even 8080/z80 asm. > -spc (On the basis that CP/M ran on the 8080/Z80 CPU ... ) Sheesh it originated there and was ported to 68K and Z8K.? When One says CP/M they are Its safe to assume 8080/8085/z80/z180/280/NSC800 or other z80 core. Allison From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 20:35:18 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 21:35:18 -0500 Subject: PET peve thing... Editors In-Reply-To: <20181212200415.GA19974@brevard.conman.org> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> <20181212200415.GA19974@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <9d9783dd-98d9-434e-6662-731ddd23dcfa@gmail.com> On 12/12/2018 03:04 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > It was thus said that the Great allison via cctalk once stated: >> The whole thing comes from a project for myself...? >> I wanted a very basic screen based editor written in 8080/8085/z80 asm >> and compact >> (as in under 4K).? I figured first lets inquire of the Internet to see >> if I need to and code exists... > I remember typing in TED.ASM from one of the PC magazines in the late 80s. > Yes, it's for MS-DOS, but: > > 1) The 8086 is somewhat, kind of, source compatible with the > 8080/Z80 (if you squint hard enough) Your not serious?? Z80 or 8080 to 8086 is not too bad but the other way is plain nuts. > 2) It was 3K when assembled into TED.COM Its not nice code either.? It assumes a memory mapped video, as in the usual PC video.?? Kaypro is a pretty close example of that but this will not be used on a kaypro. The executable did run ok in .dosemu. > 3) Was full screen. And quite basic. > > I'm not sure how hard it would be to translate it to 8080/Z80. Pretty nasty as Z80 does not know of segments, DOS IO, or can be assumed to have a memory mapped video.? For S100 that would be a PT VDM-1,or one of the similar flavors.?? If it were my usual S100/Kaypro/AMproLB+ or any of the CP/M machines I have its VEDIT. But this machine is maybe 1/3rd the size of a S100 card. All IO is serial initially. Allison From mike.niswonger at cox.net Wed Dec 12 22:07:13 2018 From: mike.niswonger at cox.net (Mike Niswonger) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 22:07:13 -0600 Subject: P112 redesigned for Z280? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f05db1a-79db-2ddb-f083-eda90c6655bf@cox.net> On 12/12/18 6:58 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > My reply is at the bottom. > Please put your reply there too. > On Tue, 4 Dec 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/4/2018 1:17 PM, Tony Nicholson via cctalk wrote: >>> Hello David >>> >>> I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180. >>> >>> It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this.? He intends >>> making the >>> full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still >>> working >>> on preliminary web pages and documenting etc.? No doubt he will >>> provide you >>> with more details. >>> >>> I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the >>> Z280RC on >>> the RetroBrew web site at >>> https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc >>> ) >>> and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280. >> >> That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it? >> Ben. > > That's got me thinking... Suppose I redesign the P112 board to take a > Z280 CPU.? Would you guys go for it?? I'd like to come up with a way > to use a socketed CPU or put a surface-mounted chip on a carrier board > to allow greater versatility with playing with different Zilog chips. > > David, ??????? Count me in on this one... Definitely sounds interesting... ??????? -- Mike From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 22:46:36 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 22:46:36 -0600 Subject: Documation card readers for sale In-Reply-To: <1BA8D91E-EBB7-4775-BD5A-983EDE5999A9@gmail.com> References: <1BA8D91E-EBB7-4775-BD5A-983EDE5999A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 6:50 PM Curious Marc via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Interested in the Arduino interface too. Will save me some time. Has it > been posted anywhere? > > Marc > Sorry it took me a while to get it. Here's the program, ca. 17 January 2015. https://pastebin.com/uQED05Xk Enjoy, Kyle From jim.manley at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 22:51:53 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 21:51:53 -0700 Subject: P112 redesigned for Z280? terminal In-Reply-To: <700b43e8-f5b9-7a96-10c1-a5e468cd7c4a@gmail.com> References: <700b43e8-f5b9-7a96-10c1-a5e468cd7c4a@gmail.com> Message-ID: This? http://searle.hostei.com/grant/MonitorKeyboard/index.html It's much more efficient for a poster to provide URLs than for umpteen others to have to go off searching. You're welcome. On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:04 PM allison via cctalk wrote: > >> That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it? > >> Ben. > > > > Ben, > > look at Grant Searle's display system, not the Z80 CP/M but his three > chip display system. > Take two Atmel Atmega328Ps and a 74ls166 monitor and P2 keyboard required. > That yields a 24line x 80char display that is a subset of Vt100/Ansii. > Its not 99cents but > at list prices under 7$ Monitor and keyboard not included. > > Or you can use an arduino with a 40char by 4 line LCD. > > > Allison > From spc at conman.org Wed Dec 12 23:05:38 2018 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 00:05:38 -0500 Subject: PET peve thing... Editors In-Reply-To: <9d9783dd-98d9-434e-6662-731ddd23dcfa@gmail.com> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> <20181212200415.GA19974@brevard.conman.org> <9d9783dd-98d9-434e-6662-731ddd23dcfa@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20181213050538.GA7253@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great allison via cctalk once stated: > On 12/12/2018 03:04 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great allison via cctalk once stated: > >> The whole thing comes from a project for myself...? > >> I wanted a very basic screen based editor written in 8080/8085/z80 asm > >> and compact > >> (as in under 4K).? I figured first lets inquire of the Internet to see > >> if I need to and code exists... > > I remember typing in TED.ASM from one of the PC magazines in the late 80s. > > Yes, it's for MS-DOS, but: > > > > 1) The 8086 is somewhat, kind of, source compatible with the > > 8080/Z80 (if you squint hard enough) > > Your not serious?? Z80 or 8080 to 8086 is not too bad but the other way > is plain nuts. I learned assembly on the 6809, then the 8086 (technically the 8088). I've always heard that it was designed to make porting code from the 8080/Z80 easy. But I never really learned the assembly for the 8080/Z80. I only mentioned it because I think (if I recall) TED.COM was limited to editing around 60K or so (one segment's worth of memory). But I can see it won't fit your needs. -spc From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Dec 12 23:58:15 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 22:58:15 -0700 Subject: PET peve thing... Editors In-Reply-To: <20181213050538.GA7253@brevard.conman.org> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> <20181212200415.GA19974@brevard.conman.org> <9d9783dd-98d9-434e-6662-731ddd23dcfa@gmail.com> <20181213050538.GA7253@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 10:05 PM Sean Conner via cctalk It was thus said that the Great allison via cctalk once stated: > > On 12/12/2018 03:04 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > > > It was thus said that the Great allison via cctalk once stated: > > >> The whole thing comes from a project for myself... > > >> I wanted a very basic screen based editor written in 8080/8085/z80 asm > > >> and compact > > >> (as in under 4K). I figured first lets inquire of the Internet to see > > >> if I need to and code exists... > > > I remember typing in TED.ASM from one of the PC magazines in the > late 80s. > > > Yes, it's for MS-DOS, but: > > > > > > 1) The 8086 is somewhat, kind of, source compatible with the > > > 8080/Z80 (if you squint hard enough) > > > > Your not serious? Z80 or 8080 to 8086 is not too bad but the other way > > is plain nuts. > > I learned assembly on the 6809, then the 8086 (technically the 8088). > I've > always heard that it was designed to make porting code from the 8080/Z80 > easy. > The 8080 mnemonics were partially mechanically translatable. Easy is an overstatement, but many of the oddballs were there to help. But the registers had different names. So more like not too terrible... Warner > From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Wed Dec 12 14:37:16 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 21:37:16 +0100 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <031E95A2-7C51-44E0-B9F8-0A6DFC240933@vmssoftware.com> And I assume the Fortran IV compiler could run on this system. ?On 12/12/18, 9:11 PM, "cctalk on behalf of William Donzelli via cctalk" wrote: While this is an absurdly small Data General Nova system for the era (at least it is not a microNova), you would run RDOS - not unlike a dual 8 inch floppy Z80 system of the day. -- Will On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:27 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > How does a person program this computer? I assume there's no C compiler. > > Would one have to boot to a DOS, then load a compiler into RAM, then read > program text into ram, them compile? > > I have less-than-zero experience with DG systems, but a higher-than-zero > adoration for their design/pedigree. > > =] > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:21 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Shoot, was asking my wife if I could have it for Christmas to replace my > > regular desk in the family room :) > > But to keep the decor of our home a little more sane, I'll abstain from > > bidding and wish you best of luck instead! > > > > happy holidays and good luck! > > --jake > > > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 1:28 PM Connor Krukosky via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Alright, I think I will go for it. I am not too far from it being in > > > Poughkeepsie. > > > Always loved the desk machines, and I personally have another kinda > > > parts Nova 4 that hopefully I can use to switch parts between to get one > > > really nice machine :) > > > > > > -Connor K > > > > > > On 2018-12-11 13:04, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > > > I had one of those quite a few years ago. The desk comes apart fairly > > > > easily. The main unit is just a standard shorty 19" rack. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Will > > > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:34 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> I'm about an hour drive away and somewhat interested, but I don't have > > > >> space for the desk unfortunately. > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Anders Nelson > > > >> > > > >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > > > >> > > > >> www.erogear.com > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Tony Aiuto > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > It is close enough to me to rescue, but I really don't have the > > space > > > to > > > >> > store it. > > > >> > Will anyone take it if I hold it a while? > > > >> > > > > >> > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:24 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < > > > >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >> Would this system fit in a standard 19" wide equipment rack? > > > >> >> > > > >> >> =] > > > >> >> -- > > > >> >> Anders Nelson > > > >> >> > > > >> >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > > > >> >> > > > >> >> www.erogear.com > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > > > >> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Cribbed from VCF: > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Chuck > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > > From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 15:14:50 2018 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 13:14:50 -0800 Subject: Manual sources Message-ID: Well, as I am sure many of you know, ManualsPlus was "acquired" by the Internet Archive. This story captures the effort: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/introducing-the-archive-corps/403135/ Jim Tucker is still selling things on ebay. When we'll see the manuals from the archive, who knows? From ethan at 757.org Wed Dec 12 16:11:22 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 17:11:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Manual sources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/introducing-the-archive-corps/403135/ > Jim Tucker is still selling things on ebay. > When we'll see the manuals from the archive, who knows? Does the Internet Archive actively have people scanning tons of manuals all the time? Oddly, I am friends with the guy who hooked them up with the space in that mall. Just never understood what the effort was to get the information digital. -- : Ethan O'Toole From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Dec 12 17:35:45 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:35:45 +1100 Subject: Manual sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181213103545.00fbca10@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 01:14 PM 12/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: >Well, as I am sure many of you know, ManualsPlus was "acquired" by the Internet Archive. >This story captures the effort: >https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/introducing-the-archive-corps/403135/ Read it more carefully. Also no, it wasn't. Maybe 1/10 the manuals were 'saved', but that means stacked in moving boxes in storage. Definitely not accessible, not for sale, indexing almost certainly lost. Also, it's about time to check what ultimately happened to them. And don't give me that 'they will get scanned' line. No they won't, and anyway I don't consider digital copies to be valid historical preservation for posterity. No matter what the scan quality (which is almost invariably inadequate anyway.) >Jim Tucker is still selling things on ebay. >When we'll see the manuals from the archive, who knows? What's the bet 'never'? Also, by 'see' I'd prefer 'see, holding an original in my hands.' With the demise of manuals wharehouse/sellers like ManualsPlus that's become MUCH more unlikely. Incidentally, if anyone happens to be near Finksberg, MD, it would be great to get an update on what happened with the building. Is it now some other business? Or demolished/redeveloped? Or just sitting there abandoned? (I'm an urbex enthusiast, I always like to follow the history of old buildings, especially if they become abandonments.) Relevant to claims that the ManualsPlus lease was $10K/month. Really curious to know if that was true. Photos please? Apologies for the following wall-o-text dump. Just for the record. ------------------------------------------------------- On the loss of ManualsPlus. Closed Aug 2015. Manuals Plus. 2002 Bethel Rd, Suite 105 Finksberg, MD. Phone 410-871-1555. Fax 410-871-1255 em: sales at manualsplus.com web: www.manualsplus.com Google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/2002+Bethel+Rd+%23105,+Finksburg,+MD+21048/@39.5426145,-76.9270742,17z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c838cf2bd77577:0x73f10597464e914a This: F:\__Equip_info\!_GKD_Lists\ManualsPlus_demise See also: Z \__Libraries_destroyed\20150816_ManualsPlus (the saved flickr pics are there.) ---------------- 20141221 http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/manualsplus-going-out-of-business/ 20150815 http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 Original 'ASCII by Jason Scott' (low bandwidth cap) Same, at archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20150815114528/http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 (with pics) Manuals Plus Loadout - A visit to the Manuals Plus Warehouse, and an Army of Volunteers Clearing it Out. 155 photos. By: Jason Scott (2 pages. Painful saving pics) https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/sets/72157657277241785 See pics on 2nd page - how much was left behind. Tragic. 20150816 An update from Jason. (From Aug 2015 onwards he has many updates.) http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4695 20150816 http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-needed-to-archive-te-manuals/ (stub) 20150816 http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/?all 20150818 https://twitter.com/textfiles/with_replies In Realtime: We are barely halfway done http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4711 20181213 via cctalk ManualsPlus was "acquired" by the Internet Archive. This story captures the effort: 20150901 https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/introducing-the-archive-corps/403135/ (The few pics are from the flickr page above. Also the article is typical MSM spin.) My posts in eevblog - rescue-mission-25-000-manuals --------------------------------------------- http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/msg732209/#msg732209 TerraHertz Posts: 3403 Country: au Why shouldn't we question everything? Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #2 on: August 16, 2015, 11:16:05 am ? Dammit. This would be Manuals Plus. 2002 Bethel Rd, Suite 105 Finksberg, MD. Phone 410-871-1555. Fax 410-871-1255 em: sales at manualsplus.com web: www.manualsplus.com Google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/2002+Bethel+Rd+%23105,+Finksburg,+MD+21048/@39.5426145,-76.9270742,17z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c838cf2bd77577:0x73f10597464e914a They sent a flyer to customers (including me) last year announcing their impending going out of business. But then they were still listing on ebay long after the end date, so I'd assumed they'd changed their mind. Now suddenly it's "manuals being dumped in the trash" It's a tragedy, and should be criminal that they are dumpstering their manuals. Apparently with no attempt to advertise a giveaway. That counts as deliberate, premeditated destruction of cultural and technological treasures. Along the lines of destruction of libraries. (Btw, google that. It's happening a lot lately in a deliberate program by a certain group.) Hopefully it's not Becky doing the dumping. She is a very nice lady, and appreciates the worth of the manuals. I can't believe she'd do it, even if her boss told her to. That there was no flyer about the actual closure suggests Becky is no longer employed there. I don't know who the business owner is, but I'd certainly like some time 'alone with him.' I'm in Australia, or I'd be there with a semi and filling up shipping containers. WHHHY can't they donate them to an organization able to store them and give them away? I really do think that destroying these old and in some cases unique and irreplaceable manuals should be a crime. People should go there and recover the already dumpstered manuals. And shout abuse at the people doing the dumping. Maybe something involving iron bars and two by fours wouldn't be amiss either. The guy that decided to shut the business down without organizing for the manuals to be saved, deserves a very unpleasant fate. No, the crappy quality scans available online of *some* of these manuals do not count as 'preservation for posterity.' The idea that there are already adequate electronic copies of all these physical manuals is delusional. A similar thing happened in Australia with a manuals company called High Country Service Data, about 20 years ago. They had a warehouse of service manuals, including many from early Australian electronics companies like BWD. Recently I discovered they had 'gone digital' - had all their manuals scanned (with the very crap scanning technology of the time) then destroyed their entire physical archive. I literally wept. No, I don't want to buy your pathetic digital low quality copies, thanks very much. A*hole. Notice on google maps that the building is situated in a semi-rural area. Also ManualsPlus is just one unit of that old factory complex. How much can the storage costs be? Combined with the absence of any giveaway attempt makes me suspect the decision to destroy the manuals may be motivated more by an actual desire to destroy them, than by commercial reasons. So far as I know Becky was the only employee, and she always seemed to be worked off her feet with manuals sales. I can't type words expressing my feelings about this, since this is an all-ages forum. But a lot of them begin with F and C. Edit to add: Darnit. I wanted to save the article pics from http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 as a record of this cultural crime. But now the site is "Bandwidth limit exceeded". Sigh. It will probably stay that way a while. So I have to go grubbing in caches. -------------------- http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/msg732227/#msg732227 Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #5 on: August 16, 2015, 11:47:41 am ? Quote from: nctnico on August 16, 2015, 11:22:15 am @TerraHertz: Did it occur to you that they are going out of business because nobody wants the manuals? Your argument is invalid, and merely demonstrates that *you* don't want them. How many people buy ebay'd old gear? Did you actually look at ManualsPlus prices? Quote I'm sure there will be couple of manuals in the collection which are sought after by people trying to maintain old gear but they really don't want to spend $75 for a manual for a piece of equipment they got for $10. You are strawman arguing, and should know better. Not 'a couple', but many thousands of manuals. $75 is way too high, and $10 is 1 to 3 orders of magnitude too low for typical worthwhile bits of old gear. Also, speak to any historian about whether current commercial value is a true measure of historic value. Quote The golden days for service manuals are over because service manuals don't exist anymore. Ha ha, fine example of circular logic there. But the last phrase is precisely correct. Service manuals don't exist anymore. Are you saying that is a good thing? One of the ways in which these manuals are precious, is as a physical demonstration of what good technical documentation should be. To hold up against and shame present day outrageous lack of anything similar. And such examples are not useful if there's just ONE copy in some library somewhere. They need to be held in many copies across a population to have any effect. Every kid learning electronics should personally experience manuals like these, to make them question why present day manufacturers don't produce such things. To show them the benefits of having tech companies run by honest engineers working for the good of society, rather than by a bunch of soulless marketing droids and lawyers. ---------------------- http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/msg732252/#msg732252 Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #10 on: August 16, 2015, 12:23:33 pm ? Quote from: tautech on August 16, 2015, 12:11:24 pm Quote from: Deathwish on August 16, 2015, 12:07:23 pm I refuse to pay for manuals, why should I scan mine and give them free as I have always done for some ingrate to then sell it on ebay. That's what the FREE manual respository websites are for, upload your obscure manual to make it available to the masses for free. Pretty sure he was just trolling. FWIW, here's the flyer from ManualsPlus in Dec 2014. I bought a few manuals as a result, but was/am too poor to go on a real splurge. Even given cheap shipping via shipito, and that ManualsPlus prices were always reasonable and Becky was being extra generous during the sale. Also I'm pretty sure I mentioned their impending closure here, but didn't save a link to the thread. Where are all the rich philanthropists, who could easily afford to organize a warehouse and one or two staff for this? Considering some of the stupid things people donate millions to, inability to get this done seems really sad. Btw, did anyone save the pics from the original article? ------------------------ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/msg732263/#msg732263 Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #13 on: August 16, 2015, 12:55:03 pm ? Quote from: Deathwish on August 16, 2015, 12:27:56 pm I was not trolling anyone thank you. I have always scanned what manuals I have and given them freely, I have even seen one or two then being sold against my wishes on ebay, it rankles and annoys me that people who will offer help to save a collection will then suddenly decide hey why shouldn't you pay for what I got free in the understanding i got them for nothing to save them for others to have freely. Sorry then. Sometimes with your sense of humor it's hard to tell. (But I do enjoy your shenanigans.) The original article at http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 is now 'bandwidth exceeded'. But it was saved today and available at archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20150815114528/http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 (with pics) There's also "full photos from today?s shoot" here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/sets/72157657277241785 Incidentally, that info about 'lease expired, can't justify cost of relocating' is a teeny bit suspect. That's not what I recall Becky saying in email to me early this year. I'll see if I can find that. --------------------------- http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/msg732279/#msg732279 Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #16 on: August 16, 2015, 01:29:03 pm ? Quote from: eas on August 16, 2015, 01:01:47 pm Sounds like the Jason Scott already has some connection with Archive.org. The short term issue is sorting, hauling everything off and storing it until they can come up with a plan for archiving it. What sorting? It's already neatly sorted and indexed. The hard part would be preserving that during a move. Anyone in the US able to think of a way someone could put a legal hold on the destruction? Quote As for burning libraries, I think someone else started doing that about, oh 2000 years ago? Oh yes, there's a long tradition of barbarism regarding libraries, much further back even than 2000 years. It's just lately there seems to be a new style. No flames and swords, same end result. I can't mention by whom and why here. But you can probably find out what I mean via google. Incidentally it's a practice I've seen with my own eyes, being done by the specific group (who we can't mention.) The whole "who needs physical books, digital copies are all we need" bullshit meme seems to go hand in hand with the stealth barbarism. But there's a very sound reason why paper copies are superior in a critical way, that overrides all other considerations - You can't expunge/corrupt/rewrite them. Either by accident ( see http://everist.org/NobLog/20131122_an_actual_knob.htm#jbig2 re JBIG2 faulty compression ), or deliberately - say hypothetically some group were intent on obliterating the technological heritage of Western Civilization. Quote I really hope they are checking printings/dates/revisions when eliminating "duplicates." I would bet money that isn't happening. (Ha ha, if I had any. But then, I'm certain I'd win the bet, so...) ------------------------ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/msg732589/#msg732589 Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #24 on: August 17, 2015, 12:18:50 am ? Quote from: nctnico on August 16, 2015, 05:51:30 pm Yes. I think I bought a couple of manuals from them in the past. You can argue all you want but running a business requires paying customers. Paying customers requires offering a service which customers would pay money for. Going out of business means there are not enough paying customers which in turn means the service provided is no longer wanted. You keep assuming they are 'going out of business due to lack of sales'. That's not the case at all. The article states it's due to loss of the lease, and not being able to justify the cost of relocating. I know from conversations with Becky (the sole staff) that she was always working non-stop. And I'm not sure about that lease stuff. So far I can't find the emails, but I'm pretty sure she said it was just the owner deciding to shut down. A decision made in Dec 2014 or earlier. Then the failure to advertise over the last 8 months to see if they could get any takers for the entire collection, so now they would dumptser them, that's barely believable. Quote I also agree with the other person about not being able to browse through their collection. That made Manualsplus invisible to Google. If they addressed that earlier they could probably have survived an extra couple of years. Yes, I agree the website was bad. More incompetence from the owner. But again, it wasn't 'lack of business' according to them. It was loss of the lease. Quote from: timb on August 16, 2015, 10:42:15 pm I'm only a couple of hours from Maryland. I've got access to a 42' flatbed and copious amounts of climate controlled storage. I'd be glad to take all the manuals off their hands (and scan them as a long term project). Well, here are their contact details again. Manuals Plus. 2002 Bethel Rd, Suite 105 Finksberg, MD. Phone 410-871-1555. Fax 410-871-1255 em: sales at manualsplus.com web: www.manualsplus.com Google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/2002+Bethel+Rd+%23105,+Finksburg,+MD+21048/@39.5426145,-76.9270742,17z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c838cf2bd77577:0x73f10597464e914a Please phone them. Now. Also contact Jason Scott and work out some cooperation with him. Main thing would be to stop them dumping manuals off the shelves till you have time to work out how to move them while maintaining sort order. Also they will have an index and ordering system on computer - you'll need that too. See if you can find out who the building owner is, and talk to them. Are they _really_ terminating the lease? Maybe that story is true, maybe it isn't. Would be good to know for sure. As opposed to, say Tektronix or Agilent/Siglint or whatever they call themselves now, passing someone a few thousand bucks to eliminate a library of manuals, thinking they might sell a few more new instruments if manuals for older gear are unavailable. Just a thought. ----------------------------- http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/msg732990/#msg732990 Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #27 on: August 17, 2015, 12:15:55 pm ? Quote from: woodchips on August 17, 2015, 04:21:30 am I know nothing about the ins and outs of why they are closing. I have been an occasional customer over the years but postage to the UK isn't cheap. I heard about the closure and hopefully in the next week or so will arrive boxes 5 and 6 of the sale manuals. I think I might now have spent more on postage than manuals with the discount on these last boxes. Thanks Becky. I've been a long term customer too. Also bought what I could afford after hearing of the shutdown. But it wasn't anything like what I wanted to buy. I'm poor atm, though that won't last forever. Quote Look at the various threads, buy a Rigol and stuff anything more than 5 years old? My manuals were mostly boring, Tek 7000 stuff and similar, but ManualsPlus had originals, and I an tired of rubbish copies and it was worth the cost to buy and ship them across the pond. My view is that at least some people should keep test gear that is repairable, as opposed to contemporary gear which isn't. As a 'just in case' precaution, for potential economic and therefore technological regression scenarios. Also as a collector of old gear partly for the historical interest, it seems stupid to have the gear, but not the original manual, which is part of the aesthetic. And in addition, I find electronic copies pathetic and nearly unusable in a practical sense, even if the quality is good. Which it so frequently isn't. Nothing beats having the stack of paper large foldout schematics. Quote This is a very common occurance now in my experience, no one is interested in older things, generally, it is all apparently on the internet. Yes, and do you know the history of fads and manias? Who can be sure the Internet is going to last forever in its current form? It's only been around what, 20 years so far. This is not sufficient basis to predict eternal availability. Are you aware of moves by the fascists in the US government, to legislate 'sharing of technical information on the net' into a 'terrorist crime'? Seriously... Unbelievable, but it fits with those arseholes' mentalities. Quote I had a nice collection of electromechanical computers, mostly navigation equipment from aircraft, inertial gyros, air data computers, ground position indicators and similar. When I had to downsize it went for auction, would have got more at a scrap yard. Tragic. Did you offer it via places like this and the vintage computing forums? Or was that before you knew of them? Quote Similarly old books, 3rd edition Britannica, a Pantologia, runs of the AJS and similar, these are now valued just for the plates they contain, maps are best, the plate of yet another bridge is used to light the fire. It has taken me years to to actually accept that the things I spent so much time and money on acquiring are now worthless. You're making a big mistake. The same made by many people, which results in relics being so very rare after a few decades. You're allowing yourself to be conditioned by the prevailing view that monetary value of the moment, is equivalent to moral worth. This is a falsehood. You should decide what value is, within your own moral code. F*ck opinions of others to the contrary. Quote I have ST412 working disc drives, no interest, scrapped, similarly with much other computer stuff. No one now has the space to store this stuff, and museums don't seem interested either. Sob. More tragedy. I'd have taken all that stuff. Incidentally, this 'no one has the space' is not just by accident, it's the result of deliberate social manipulation, intended to disempower the majority of the population. A deliberate side effect of the way the economic system is structured at the moment. Quote I am pleased that I bought the manuals I did from MP, and they will be used and appreciated. But they will also go for recycling when I die. How soon will that be do you think? Any chance you could put me down in your will, to take whatever techno-relics you still have? I'm totally serious, please PM me if you'll consider it. I'm 60 now, will be around a while yet. See http://everist.org/NobLog/ I have a lot of Tek 7000 series stuff, but mostly not yet recommissioned due to the sequencing of getting my workshop set up. Quote what is a 7T11? In the end I had a choice, pay MP for the manuals and postage, or keep that money in my savings account. All the others who complain about the manuals being dumped perhaps should have put some money where their mouth is, and bought a couple of thousand $ worth when they could. I did. So did I, but it wasn't anywhere near that much. The timing is what bugs me. In the next year or so, I'll likely be forced to sell my current large property due to a zoning change. (http://everist.org/no-rezone/ hmmm... needs an update.) I expect to end up with more than enough to rebuild in the country somewhere, including a *much bigger* workshop, and live comfortably. One of the items on my 'new workspace' requirements list, is a _large_ library space. Medium scale library. I wish MP had waited to shut down till that was set up. --------------------------------- http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/msg733948/#msg733948 Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #36 on: August 18, 2015, 05:37:05 pm ? Quote from: Tothwolf on August 18, 2015, 11:14:25 am Quote from: TerraHertz on August 16, 2015, 01:29:03 pm Quote I really hope they are checking printings/dates/revisions when eliminating "duplicates." I would bet money that isn't happening. (Ha ha, if I had any. But then, I'm certain I'd win the bet, so...) You guys need to watch what you say. Becky is aware of this thread and had been following it. As for duplicate sorting, according to Becky, Jason and others have been hard at work. Hi Becky! (Guy D from Sydney here.) I still bet 'duplicate culling' (not sorting, they are ALREADY sorted) isn't happening in any adequate sense. Revision and serial number comparison is *hard* and there's no way it could be done for that archive in the time available. Especially not while also maintaining overall sort order and catalog to shelf grid references. Also even if it was, it's still a tragedy, since the purpose of the the 'save & move' would ideally be to keep the manuals in this collection available for future purchasers. Which I don't expect will be possible, and that makes me feel ill. Both on principle and because it makes my future equipment life harder. It's like watching a priceless library burn, and nothing I can do about it. Feel like I want to kill someone. Not Becky or the volunteers! Three cheers for their effort. The owner, maybe, depending on what the actual situation is. How come this got left to the last minute? Or perhaps the building owner. Or maybe a bunch of bankers, for creating a debt-riddled system in which a business like ManualsPlus can't own its own premises clear of debt, and have no overheads beyond water, power and maybe land rates. There seems to be a lot of 'save only one copy of each for scanning' attitude going on here. You can guess what I think of that. Current scanning and encoding file formats are NOT ADEQUATE! There'll be better schemes in future, but till then save all the physical copies, in as many hands as possible to prevent this kind of mass loss. But, since I can't help or influence in any way, who cares what I think. Quote towards their USD $10,000 a month building lease. I still wish it was possible to do some checking of background details to this. Is "$10K/month" for that not particularly big space in an old subdivided factory in semi-rural area sensible? I don't know, but it does seem a bit hard to believe. Did the lease actually 'get lost'? How & why, given there's not exactly a huge swell in demand for industrial real estate in the USA these days. Who owns the building, and what's their story? I know I'll never see answers to these questions, which makes me feel even more ill about the whole thing, ------------------------------- 20150902 http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/whats-your-work-benchlab-look-like-post-some-pictures-of-your-lab/msg745443/#msg745443 My comments re destruction of ManualsPlus Re: Whats your Work-Bench/lab look like? Post some pictures of your Lab. Quote from: Rupunzell on September 02, 2015, 03:54:47 pm That file cabinet of service manuals and the other over stuffed book shelf of data books are going no where. These are valuable archives of not only devices from years gone by, they are part of the history of science and technology. There are data books going back to the early 1970's and to the time when semi companies mostly stopped publishing them. Each year at work, there would be a boxes of new data books that would appear. Some would stay at work, some followed me home. Service manuals would appear at the swap and lease where, they would not sell for much at all and often service manuals would appear by the box full and the seller insisted on the buyer taking the entire box, not just one. There are a number of independent cal labs in and near SV that have very extensive libraries of service manuals. They offer paper copies upon request with a modest fee. Photocopies, you mean. Which may be 'usable', but are worthless in the historical sense. Nothing beats having an original. Quote Many of the more popular instruments from that era can be found on the web, but not any where near all that was available from that time. Much the same applies to semiconductor and numerous other electronics devices. This is why I have kept these vintage data books and catalogs as more often than not, this information can be so very valuable. Tell me about it. From my own experiences of acquiring old gear then trying to find adequate manuals, I know very well how spotty the online archives are. (And much of what there is, are appallingly bad quality.) Also electronics data books - this is one area in which the 'it's all online, so just dumpster your physical books' delusion is particularly active. Maybe half my library of data books are from people I knew who decided to toss theirs. I'll NEVER dump mine. They're easier to read than PDFs, you get reminded of other chips, the books are complete with lots of related stuff, and many other reasons why they are superior. Quote There is SO much that can be learned from those hewlett packard, Tektronix, Systron Donner, Gigatronics, Fluke and many other's service manuals that is not often appreciated. Some of the very best circuit and systems designers I know spent years of their youth studying what was in these service manuals and learning what made these instruments work and why. Two of well known individuals who spent a LOT of time studying these service manuals and tinkering with test gear from this era are Jim Williams & Bob Dobkin. Stories of other with a similar history can be found on the Analog footsteps blog page: http://analogfootsteps.blogspot.com/search/label/Bob%20Dobkin This is the prime reason why there are often post form me about saving and repairing instrumentation from this golden era. There is a LOT more than just the math to fully understanding how a circuit and it's environment behaves as a unit system. Spending time with these instruments can be an excellent teaching and learning experience. Yes indeed, I see you are a man after my own heart. I also have the view that these works are not just a history, but a critical resource should there be any kind of civilization glitch. Most people believe such ideas are silly, but that is just a bad case of normalcy bias. I know from my study of human history (and academic studies like Tainter's 'The collapse of complex societies') that such collapses are the norm in the human story, not the exception. Good luck using 'online pdfs' after a decade or two (or 20, or 100) of no power, fuel or technical education system. A great deal of the technical foundation of our society has zero adequately preserved 'seed bank of knowledge.' Those service manuals from the 60s through early 90s (before the lawyers and bean counters put a stop to that) are a unique treasure, in the way they detail everything about how the instruments worked. And on paper, that can last hundreds of years if simply kept dry and safe from the elements. Which doesn't require high tech efforts, unlike say maintaining a bank of hard disks and their regular replacement. Also, and this is very important - ink on paper can't be edited and deliberately corrupted or expunged. If it's there, it's original and true. Something that can't be relied on with digital copies. If you think deliberate 'historical revision' doesn't happen with digital media, you are not paying attention. It happens all the time with film and music for instance. For those who were wondering why I was spitting mad about ManualsPlus being trashed, this is why. I consider that event a kind of vandalism against the foundations of civilization itself. And no, 'saving one copy of each in rented storage', while slightly better than nothing, isn't good enough. I really do think some people should be shot for the destruction of that library. Not the victims, like Becky, or the people who tried hard and did what they could with inadequate resources. But definitely the business owner, for either incompetence or deliberate acts resulting in the destruction. Ah well. Centralization of anything is bad, since it exposes the thing to infiltration of control by those who would destroy it. In a hundred years, it's going to be printed collections of knowledge kept safe privately by people like Rupunzell that will have made a difference. Too bad there are so few who see the value. But I suppose that is the usual way by which things once relatively common become extremely rare (or completely lost) over time. ------------------------ From dave at 661.org Thu Dec 13 01:40:01 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 07:40:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SunOS 2.4 Exploit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My reply is at the bottom. Please put your reply there too. On Mon, 10 Dec 2018, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 9 Dec 2018, Ken Seefried wrote: >> I believe SunOS 2.4 is old enough all you need to do is delete the >> password hash from /etc/passwd to log in without a password. > > Please tell me more: what is SunOS 2.4? > I know of SunOS (1.x, 2.0, 3.x, 4.x) and Solaris (1.x and 2.x). > Or do you mean Solaris 2.4 (i.e. SunOS 5.4)? I'm wondering how a Sparcstation was able to run SunOS 2.x. In any case, Christian, here's something that usually works with any flavor of Unix: Mount the drive on some other machine where you have root access, then blank the password hash field in /etc/passwd or /etc/shadow, depending on where the hash really is. If the OS on the drive that you're trying to break into doesn't like that, figure out the hashing scheme it uses, then generate a new hash and put that in. Since you've managed to guess the password of a regular user account, you can use that hash. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Dec 13 03:03:54 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:03:54 +0100 Subject: Labtool48 Programmer Message-ID: <20181213090354.GA74269@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi all, I've got an Advantech Labtool48 parallel Port Programmer lately for fifty bucks. I've got it w/o any Software, cable or documentation and now I have a few questions. 1. Is the parallel Cable a straight one to one Cable? The Labtool48 has an male connector on the back so a standard cable wouldn't fit.. (ok, think I can reverse engeneer or at least try that if needed..) 2. This isn't a Labtool48UXP, the UXP Version seems to have an USB connector additionally, doesn anyone know if the Software that Advantech provides (http://www.aec.com.tw/software_files/LT48UXP_83203.exe) will work with the Labrtool48? 3. I want to programm Altera PLD's EPM7160LC84. On many sites on the web can be read that Advantech is providing an PDF with the required "pin swapping Table" so the user can build adapters himselves..this seems to be history, the link http://www.aec.com.tw/products/adapters.pdf is dead and the wayback machine shows that it is dead for many years. Doens someone has possibly a copy of this pdf? TIA, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Thu Dec 13 06:02:47 2018 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:02:47 -0000 Subject: IBM 3850 cartridge Message-ID: <009601d492db$c40f57e0$4c2e07a0$@eu> Do any of you more venerable IBM types know of a way to open one of these to extract the tape contained inside? It looks a bit fiddly but there might be a trick to it. (Apart from having the mass storage system itself.) Many thanks to you for your information and also to Mr Kossow who kindly let me have some of these. Peter vp || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 06:08:28 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 07:08:28 -0500 Subject: Manual sources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thus electronic storage / scanning is probably the best alternative all else considered. Everyone here can hope another like-minded soul will be there to do what needs to be done when opportunity awaits I saved a healthy run of early popular electronics mags from the wilmington, delaware library a few years ago. If I haddn't randomly happenend to have been there... I assume pop electr are all online, but ultimately it's about cost benefit of storage. As far as places like ManualsPlus and other for-profit libraries, many I am sure were killed in part by free digital copies on the web.. i.e. we who archive and post copies for free have our role in what became of the for-profit library business. I remember Jason Scott was very involved in rallying volunteers to save what could be saved at ManualsPlus, a lot was thus saved by Jason. Some of it passed through vcfed.org club I think. Bill From connork at connorsdomain.com Thu Dec 13 09:10:09 2018 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (connork at connorsdomain.com) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 15:10:09 +0000 Subject: IBM 3850 cartridge In-Reply-To: <009601d492db$c40f57e0$4c2e07a0$@eu> References: <009601d492db$c40f57e0$4c2e07a0$@eu> Message-ID: <72022579e34a7b843844c75b41f47450@connorsdomain.com> On the top of the cartridge there is bunch of clips in a circular pattern. If you squeeze all these in at once, either carefully with your fingers or with some tube that is just the right size to squeeze them all in at once, you can then slide the clear cover off the top. The tape is a bit fiddly to wind back up and get back under the cover once you have it opened. -Connor K On 2018-12-13 12:02, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: > Do any of you more venerable IBM types know of a way to open one of > these to > extract the tape contained inside? It looks a bit fiddly but there > might be > a trick to it. (Apart from having the mass storage system itself.) > > Many thanks to you for your information and also to Mr Kossow who > kindly let > me have some of these. > > Peter vp > > || | | | | | | | | > Peter Van Peborgh > 62 St Mary's Rise > Writhlington Radstock > Somerset BA3 3PD > UK > 01761 439 234 > || | | | | | | | | From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Dec 13 09:24:01 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:24:01 -0500 Subject: NCR aka NATIONAL 304 Computer - any left in physical form? Message-ID: <167a82ae19c-1ec7-1d@webjas-vae045.srv.aolmail.net> NCR aka NATIONAL 304 Computer - any left in physical form? ? Thanks? ? Ed#? ?www.smecc.org? From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 09:25:59 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:25:59 -0500 Subject: PET peve thing... Editors In-Reply-To: <20181213050538.GA7253@brevard.conman.org> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <76927ed0-5fc7-f8f1-f26d-6df3526ba729@gmail.com> <20181212200415.GA19974@brevard.conman.org> <9d9783dd-98d9-434e-6662-731ddd23dcfa@gmail.com> <20181213050538.GA7253@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 12/13/2018 12:05 AM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > It was thus said that the Great allison via cctalk once stated: >> On 12/12/2018 03:04 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: >>> It was thus said that the Great allison via cctalk once stated: >>>> The whole thing comes from a project for myself...? >>>> I wanted a very basic screen based editor written in 8080/8085/z80 asm >>>> and compact >>>> (as in under 4K).? I figured first lets inquire of the Internet to see >>>> if I need to and code exists... >>> I remember typing in TED.ASM from one of the PC magazines in the late 80s. >>> Yes, it's for MS-DOS, but: >>> >>> 1) The 8086 is somewhat, kind of, source compatible with the >>> 8080/Z80 (if you squint hard enough) >> Your not serious?? Z80 or 8080 to 8086 is not too bad but the other way >> is plain nuts. > I learned assembly on the 6809, then the 8086 (technically the 8088). I've > always heard that it was designed to make porting code from the 8080/Z80 > easy. But I never really learned the assembly for the 8080/Z80. I only > mentioned it because I think (if I recall) TED.COM was limited to editing > around 60K or so (one segment's worth of memory). The 6809 is one of the few I pay attention to as it was remarkably close to the PDP-11. The 8088/86 is that it was designed as a 8085 with a bag on the side.? The register correspondence from 8080/8085 to 8088 is good and lofting code usually works if you watch for odd errors like AH, is that the value A hex, or Accumulator high.? Z80 however in base is 8080/8085 but had a second set of identical registers and 8088 has nothing like that.? So unless one keep the Z80 code to the 8080 register model it does not translate well.?? In the reverse direction the 8088 has register (segment) and a few other that would have to be sorted out by hand. The size limit of 60K is not a problem as what I want is aimed at files in the 7-32K range. > But I can see it won't fit your needs. If it wasn't a handful to get ported to z80 it might have made a start. I found EDIT and EDITM both are based on EDIT CPMSIG vol 16 where edit M is more cleaned up and handles some things better.? Both are very small under 2.8K.? So that makes for a platform to add to by wiring in a set of recurrent edit macros that repeat and update the screen. Allison From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 11:30:46 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 11:30:46 -0600 Subject: AMD Am8177 Datasheet Message-ID: Does anyone have a datasheet for an Am8177 shift register? Seems to be ECL. Thanks, Kyle From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 11:31:53 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 11:31:53 -0600 Subject: AMD Am8177 Datasheet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gah...just found it. http://www.bitsavers.org/components/amd/_dataBooks/1989_AMD_Personal_Computer_Products.pdf Page 693 of the PDF. Sorry, Kyle On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 11:30 AM Kyle Owen wrote: > Does anyone have a datasheet for an Am8177 shift register? Seems to be ECL. > > Thanks, > > Kyle > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 13 12:00:09 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 13:00:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: AMD Am8177 Datasheet Message-ID: <20181213180009.5F39718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Kyle Owen > Gah...just found it. We've all been there... :-) Noel From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Dec 13 09:22:12 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:22:12 -0500 Subject: now - Popular Electonics was Re: Manual sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <167a829355e-1ec2-597@webjas-vaa047.srv.aolmail.net> YEP! Pretty sure all Popular? Electronics? were? online? ? Bill.... Yes? the? 'for? profit'? ?model diminished? ?due? to? online scanned? holdings.? It? also diminished? the value? of? some publications? also as? many people are? OK? with having a? digital? copy and? do not have the urge or need to have a hardcopy on file. ? PAPER is still king here though as it offers us the best? images? ? ?for use in display as we? photograph or? scan the? printed artwork and not? deal? with? compression.? ? There? ?may? even? come? a point? where I? have to? direct? a? thinning? of the? library. Even now,? some? things that? we? have multiple? copies of? or multiple sets of are being? shared out.? ? ? Thinking back on my? young? days and? the love of? publications...? ? Heh!? I can't? tell? you? how many? copies of Popular Electronics, Electronics Illustrated and Electronics? World? and others? I read in? class? with a? text? book? ?in front of? it to make the teacher? thing? I was? really? interested in what they were teaching! ? Neighbors that? were in the engineering and? science? careers were a? steady supply? of? great higher level? publications that many of? them would? trash every? week...? ?and? what? wonderful? reader service cards? all of these publications? could? be? used to bring in? ?on some? days? a 2? foot? stack of? mail ... much to my mother's chagrin who had to sort out? ?the few pieces of? family mail that were in the stack. ? All family? cars ( and a? ?few neighbor cars? too) had? 'stashes'? of? mags? in the? trunk ....? ?"sure? mom? what to stop and? ?go? shopping..." Let? me? get something out of the? trunk....." ? Although? scanned? stuff is? ?useful there is still nothing like? curling up in an? arm chair? ?(or in? this story? a? car seat)? and? reading the? ?paper? issues! ? Ed#? www.smecc.org??(extra? ?spaces included to? ?authenticate message) ? In a message dated 12/13/2018 7:45:35 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Thus electronic storage / scanning is probably the best alternative all else considered. Everyone here can hope another like-minded soul will be there to do what needs to be done when opportunity awaits I saved a healthy run of early popular electronics mags from the wilmington, delaware library a few years ago. If I haddn't randomly happenend to have been there... I assume pop electr are all online, but ultimately it's about cost benefit of storage. As far as places like ManualsPlus and other for-profit libraries, many I am sure were killed in part by free digital copies on the web.. i.e. we who archive and post copies for free have our role in what became of the for-profit library business. I remember Jason Scott was very involved in rallying volunteers to save what could be saved at ManualsPlus, a lot was thus saved by Jason. Some of it passed through vcfed.org club I think. Bill From cramcram at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 12:26:26 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:26:26 -0800 Subject: AMD Am8177 Datasheet In-Reply-To: <20181213180009.5F39718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181213180009.5F39718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Kyle, Where did you find that part? I designed the video stage of the AT&T Pixel Machine back in the late 80's using that part. It was perfect for us as I had to access up to 16 cards worth of pixels in TTL and spit out a video rate stream in ECL to drive the lookup tables and the DACs. Only time I've ever designed a backplane with active parts on it. Marc On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 10:00 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Kyle Owen > > > Gah...just found it. > > We've all been there... :-) > > Noel > From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 23:59:56 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 23:59:56 -0600 Subject: AMD Am8177 Datasheet In-Reply-To: References: <20181213180009.5F39718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 23:49 Marc Howard via cctalk Kyle, > > Where did you find that part? I designed the video stage of the AT&T Pixel > Machine back in the late 80's using that part. It was perfect for us as I > had to access up to 16 cards worth of pixels in TTL and spit out a video > rate stream in ECL to drive the lookup tables and the DACs. Only time I've > ever designed a backplane with active parts on it. > Very cool! I found this one in the bwtwo framebuffer for a Sun 3/60. They didn't seem to use the chip in other Sun machines, far as I can tell. Kyle > From useddec at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 00:04:22 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 00:04:22 -0600 Subject: AMD Am8177 Datasheet In-Reply-To: References: <20181213180009.5F39718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I have a few thousand ECL chips here if anyone needs any. I'll try to post a list by the first. Paul On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 12:00 AM Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 23:49 Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > > > Kyle, > > > > Where did you find that part? I designed the video stage of the AT&T > Pixel > > Machine back in the late 80's using that part. It was perfect for us as > I > > had to access up to 16 cards worth of pixels in TTL and spit out a video > > rate stream in ECL to drive the lookup tables and the DACs. Only time > I've > > ever designed a backplane with active parts on it. > > > > Very cool! I found this one in the bwtwo framebuffer for a Sun 3/60. They > didn't seem to use the chip in other Sun machines, far as I can tell. > > Kyle > > > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 14 01:36:57 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 07:36:57 +0000 Subject: AMD Am8177 Datasheet In-Reply-To: References: <20181213180009.5F39718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> , Message-ID: Let us know of any bipolar AMD am2900, anything in the am2900 Bipolar Microprocessor Family. 2900 demo board: http://www.donnamaie.com/AMD_Vintage/EVAL_Board_cropped_reduced.pdf www.donnamaie.com Created Date: 1/15/2009 12:09:39 PM www.donnamaie.com ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Anderson via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2018 10:04 PM To: Kyle Owen; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: AMD Am8177 Datasheet I have a few thousand ECL chips here if anyone needs any. I'll try to post a list by the first. Paul On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 12:00 AM Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 23:49 Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > > > Kyle, > > > > Where did you find that part? I designed the video stage of the AT&T > Pixel > > Machine back in the late 80's using that part. It was perfect for us as > I > > had to access up to 16 cards worth of pixels in TTL and spit out a video > > rate stream in ECL to drive the lookup tables and the DACs. Only time > I've > > ever designed a backplane with active parts on it. > > > > Very cool! I found this one in the bwtwo framebuffer for a Sun 3/60. They > didn't seem to use the chip in other Sun machines, far as I can tell. > > Kyle > > > > From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Fri Dec 14 04:41:48 2018 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 10:41:48 -0000 Subject: Researching IBM rare equipment from 50s to 80s Message-ID: <016301d49399$9eb294d0$dc17be70$@eu> Fellow geeks of more mature vintage, Do any of you guys know whether it is possible to find out to whom any IBM equipment was sold back in the day? (Still chasing IBM 2321 Data Cell - I never learn!) Many thanks, peter || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From ed at groenenberg.net Fri Dec 14 04:52:28 2018 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 11:52:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: Researching IBM rare equipment from 50s to 80s In-Reply-To: <016301d49399$9eb294d0$dc17be70$@eu> References: <016301d49399$9eb294d0$dc17be70$@eu> Message-ID: <62057.92.70.5.67.1544784748.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Fri, December 14, 2018 11:41, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > Fellow geeks of more mature vintage, > > Do any of you guys know whether it is possible to find out to whom any IBM > equipment was sold back in the day? (Still chasing IBM 2321 Data Cell - I > never learn!) > > Many thanks, > > peter > Try contacting the ABN Amrobank datacenter in Amstelveen. They have (had?) some vintage IBM stuff on display in the various spots there. Their address is : Eleanor Rooseveltlaan 1, 1183 CC Amstelveen. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 05:54:47 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 06:54:47 -0500 Subject: Researching IBM rare equipment from 50s to 80s In-Reply-To: <62057.92.70.5.67.1544784748.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <016301d49399$9eb294d0$dc17be70$@eu> <62057.92.70.5.67.1544784748.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 6:11 AM E. Groenenberg via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org wrote: > On Fri, December 14, 2018 11:41, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > > Fellow geeks of more mature vintage, > > > > Do any of you guys know whether it is possible to find out to whom any > IBM > > equipment was sold back in the day? (Still chasing IBM 2321 Data Cell - I > > never learn!) > > > > Many thanks, > > > > peter > > > > Try contacting the ABN Amrobank datacenter in Amstelveen. > They have (had?) some vintage IBM stuff on display in the various > spots there. > > Their address is : Eleanor Rooseveltlaan 1, 1183 CC Amstelveen. > > Ed > -- > Ik email, dus ik besta. > Just because it is tangentially on topic...In the USA, other than IBM itself one can try the Hagley Museum archives in Wilmington, Delaware. There is an IBM document subarchive there. In 1987 while working for IBM as a college student intern I was dispatched once to retrieve some docs stored there. I dont know what the extent of the IBM component of the archive is, or if it is Wilmington/Philadelpia/DuPont only. Related to Hagley I recently retrieved RCA docs there. There is also UNIVAC stuff. Needle in a haystack B > From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 09:19:50 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:19:50 -0600 Subject: AMD Am8177 Datasheet In-Reply-To: References: <20181213180009.5F39718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 1:36 AM Randy Dawson wrote: > Let us know of any bipolar AMD am2900, anything in the am2900 Bipolar > Microprocessor Family. > 2900 demo board: > http://www.donnamaie.com/AMD_Vintage/EVAL_Board_cropped_reduced.pdf > Guess I have a whole 8 bits of computing power! https://photos.app.goo.gl/vD33aMjVSvnRuWLR6 Kyle From john at ziaspace.com Fri Dec 14 12:16:41 2018 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 18:16:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine Message-ID: Hi, all, I have a collection of most of BYTE Magazine from the beginning through about 1985. Instead of selling it on eBay, I'd rather find a home for it where people can enjoy it. I also have a small collection of other computer magazines from the late 1970s and early 1980s which I'd like to include. Does anyone know of any person or organization within a reasonable distance from southern California who might take these magazines and preserve them, instead of just selling them on eBay? Thanks! John -- I don't know which scares me more - that people adhere to the idea of an omnipotent being powerful enough to create the universe, but whose supposedly most cherished creation is a race modeled after himself which can't stop hurting and killing each other, or the idea that those same people cannot or will not consider the possibility that the universe is random and unfeeling, and it's up to us to create order and beauty out of chaos and entropy. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Dec 14 12:50:31 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 11:50:31 -0700 Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/14/18 11:16 AM, John Klos via cctalk wrote: > Hi, all, Hi John, > Does anyone know of any person or organization within a reasonable > distance from southern California who might take these magazines and > preserve them, instead of just selling them on eBay? Have you contacted the Internet Archive and / or BitSavers? I think one or both of them will take things like this and scan them for preservation and to share with other people. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 14 13:12:46 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 19:12:46 +0000 Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John, If you have not gotten any takers, I will step up. I am in Los Angeles (Thousand Oaks). I see most if not all is online at internet achive an here: https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Byte_Magazine.htm I would rather have the physical magazine. Let me know what others you want to get rid of (Kilobaud?) Randy BYTE MAGAZINE: Early computer publication Byte magazine was an early microcomputer magazine, influential in the late 1970s and throughout the 1980s because of its wide-ranging editorial coverage. Byte started in 1975, shortly after the first personal computers appeared as kits which were advertised in the back of electronics magazines. www.americanradiohistory.com ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of John Klos via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 10:16 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine Hi, all, I have a collection of most of BYTE Magazine from the beginning through about 1985. Instead of selling it on eBay, I'd rather find a home for it where people can enjoy it. I also have a small collection of other computer magazines from the late 1970s and early 1980s which I'd like to include. Does anyone know of any person or organization within a reasonable distance from southern California who might take these magazines and preserve them, instead of just selling them on eBay? Thanks! John -- I don't know which scares me more - that people adhere to the idea of an omnipotent being powerful enough to create the universe, but whose supposedly most cherished creation is a race modeled after himself which can't stop hurting and killing each other, or the idea that those same people cannot or will not consider the possibility that the universe is random and unfeeling, and it's up to us to create order and beauty out of chaos and entropy. From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 13:14:17 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 20:14:17 +0100 Subject: Tektronix X11 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi I have a xp217 tektronix terminal for sale with its PSU and firmware let me know if someone wants it From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 14 14:10:57 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:10:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Does anyone know of any person or organization within a reasonable distance >> from southern California who might take these magazines and preserve them, >> instead of just selling them on eBay? On Fri, 14 Dec 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Have you contacted the Internet Archive and / or BitSavers? I think one or > both of them will take things like this and scan them for preservation and to > share with other people. Q1: Which issues of BYTE have not been scanned yet?? Q2: What do Internet Archive and Bitsavers do with materials after scanning? (or duplicates? or incoming materials that they have aready scanned?) Maybe they could sell them on eBay to fund their activities, . . . There exist some people who DISCARD materials once they have been scanned. Some people object to calling that "preservation". From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 14:21:49 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 15:21:49 -0500 Subject: Documation TM200 card reader - pinch roller restoration In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181017072451.00dff970@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181016204820.00dc6b38@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181017072451.00dff970@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 4:29 PM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > Update: > I've received good clear photos of the roller pairs, from which I can work out a sufficiently accurate > diameter for the pinch roller. Thanks David and Ed. > > My guess of 27.5 WAS quite a bit off. Preliminary working from the photo gives a roller Dia of 27.2 mm, > ie only just touching. But that was done late at night, and from only one measurement. > I'll post a more detailed result later today. I have what appears to be a firm and intact upper 2nd roller on my M600 (it's the other one that's turning to goo) I measured the roller to be: O.D. (rubber) 26.6mm (~1.048") hub O.D. (metal) ~13.9mm (~0.55") I.D. (metal) ~6.4mm (fits 1/4 D-shaft) width ~9.5 (0.375 - seems to be 3/8") ...in case it's possible to find a standard roller. The shaft diameter and roller width are certainly common Imperial values. -ethan It's possible the roller is a standard From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Dec 14 14:40:18 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:40:18 -0800 Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 14, 2018, at 12:10 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > There exist some people who DISCARD materials once they have been scanned. > Some people object to calling that "preservation". Aren?t these the same people that scan at such poor quality that only the text is ?usable?, and illustrations are largely unusable? Case in point, I?m trying to track down a 150 year old book, by one of my favorite photography authors, it?s on Google books, but the illustrations, which are vital to understanding what the author is talking about, are largely useless. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 14 15:22:57 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:22:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> There exist some people who DISCARD materials once they have been scanned. >> Some people object to calling that "preservation". On Fri, 14 Dec 2018, Zane Healy wrote: > Aren?t these the same people that scan at such poor quality that only > the text is ?usable?, and illustrations are largely unusable? I wouldn't be surprised if there is substantial overlap between the two groups. Although one would hope that those who think that digital copies are adequate would care about making them adequate. Admittedly, there are SOME materials where scans need only be adequate for OCR. Certainly Murphy would hold that the least available ones would be those that most need quality scanning. > Case in point, I?m trying to track down a 150 year old book, by one of > my favorite photography authors, it?s on Google books, but the > illustrations, which are vital to understanding what the author is > talking about, are largely useless. Hmmm. 150 year old photography book would be just after civil war. My preference for photography books isusually from about 60 to 80 years ago, when publishers could do a good job of B&W plates, and the technology of 35mm was coming along. (Morgan and Lester, etc.) Occasionally, I'll drive to Carmel to look at Ansel Adams prints at the Weston Gallery - "megapixel" just doesn't cut it! Is there any way to penetrate the Google infrastructure, to track down who scanned the book, and where it now is? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From t.gardner at computer.org Fri Dec 14 12:49:09 2018 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 10:49:09 -0800 Subject: Researching IBM rare equipment from 50s to 80s In-Reply-To: <016301d49399$9eb294d0$dc17be70$@eu> References: <016301d49399$9eb294d0$dc17be70$@eu> Message-ID: <005d01d493dd$b3625b10$1a271130$@computer.org> For the very early stuff u can't do much better than the US Army's Ballistic Research Lab surveys, a number of which are on line at http://www.ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/merged.html Tom -----Original Message----- From: Peter Van Peborgh [mailto:peter at vanpeborgh.eu] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 2:42 AM To: Subject: Researching IBM rare equipment from 50s to 80s Fellow geeks of more mature vintage, Do any of you guys know whether it is possible to find out to whom any IBM equipment was sold back in the day? (Still chasing IBM 2321 Data Cell - I never learn!) Many thanks, peter || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From cube1 at charter.net Fri Dec 14 15:04:12 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 15:04:12 -0600 Subject: Researching IBM rare equipment from 50s to 80s In-Reply-To: <016301d49399$9eb294d0$dc17be70$@eu> References: <016301d49399$9eb294d0$dc17be70$@eu> Message-ID: <578e6148-2228-e1b1-2703-e603cee855ca@charter.net> On 12/14/2018 4:41 AM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > Fellow geeks of more mature vintage, > > Do any of you guys know whether it is possible to find out to whom any IBM > equipment was sold back in the day? (Still chasing IBM 2321 Data Cell - I > never learn!) > > Many thanks, > > peter > Well, if your intention is to actually find one, can't help. I do know that Wisconsin DOT had one back in the day, on an IBM 360/50, but it was gone before I started work there. I think that I have a large negative of the beastie lying around somewhere. No, it is not stuffed anywhere. Indeed the building that formerly housed it (and was home for me during my career) was razed just this year. In general, even if IBM still had such records, I am sure that they would not release them, and doubt that they would be indexed in fine detail such that you could find customers of any particular machine type (unless they fed them to Watson ;) ). Leased units would have been turned back into IBM. Purchased units would have been mostly traded in and scrapped. A Google Search found these instances of customer units (there may well be more - I stopped after a few pages) http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/datacell.html https://www.facebook.com/HealthManagementTechnology/photos/ibm-2321-data-cell-drive/1324757777567020/ https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM2321DataCellAtUMich.jpg JRJ From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Dec 14 19:40:14 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 17:40:14 -0800 Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6431B2FE-17A7-40A1-A9BB-225C13220FDC@avanthar.com> > On Dec 14, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> There exist some people who DISCARD materials once they have been scanned. >>> Some people object to calling that "preservation". > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2018, Zane Healy wrote: >> Aren?t these the same people that scan at such poor quality that only the text is ?usable?, and illustrations are largely unusable? > > I wouldn't be surprised if there is substantial overlap between the two groups. Although one would hope that those who think that digital copies are adequate would care about making them adequate. > Admittedly, there are SOME materials where scans need only be adequate for OCR. Certainly Murphy would hold that the least available ones would be those that most need quality scanning. And scan in colour, where it?s important! >> Case in point, I?m trying to track down a 150 year old book, by one of my favorite photography authors, it?s on Google books, but the illustrations, which are vital to understanding what the author is talking about, are largely useless. > > Hmmm. 150 year old photography book would be just after civil war. > My preference for photography books isusually from about 60 to 80 years ago, when publishers could do a good job of B&W plates, and the technology of 35mm was coming along. (Morgan and Lester, etc.) > Occasionally, I'll drive to Carmel to look at Ansel Adams prints at the Weston Gallery - "megapixel" just doesn't cut it! It?s less a technical book, and more a philosophical book on composition, and uses works of a well known 19th century painter in most examples. As for books in the time frame you?re mentioning, don?t forget the ?Ilford Manual of Photography?, the examples for troubleshooting are actually easy to use compared to the newer ?Manual of Photography?, even though they?re mostly the same photo?s. Right now I?m fighting with some processing issues with 8x10 and 11x14 film. Though if I was driving to Carmel, it wouldn?t be to look at Ansel Adams prints, it would be to look at Edward Weston?s. His work for Walt Whitman?s ?Leaves of Grass?, drives much of my efforts. > Is there any way to penetrate the Google infrastructure, to track down who scanned the book, and where it now is? I think I?ve finally tracked down a copy. Part of the hold-up has been ensuring that I don?t buy an older edition. There were at least 4 editions. It?s also *not* a cheap book. Oddly enough, some of the techniques used in the book, seem better suited to Adobe Photoshop. :-) H.P. Robinson was a man before his time! Zane From microtechdart at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 23:46:42 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:46:42 -0800 Subject: Data Electronics Incorporated (DEI) CMTD-300S2 tape drive manual Message-ID: For view or download: http://bit.ly/2RZK28Q I came across this, and noticed that this early of a DEI model was not yet archived at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dei I'm not sure that it is scanned to the requirements of bitsavers, but I don't have access to the original, so I offer this if it is usable or of interest to anyone here. I'll probably also post it on one of my sites, at http://QICreader.com I also just acquired this DEI 301034-2 QIC Tape Drive, and have begun to reverse-engineer it. https://ebay.to/2EjyxFn Best always, -- Thanks, AJ From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 00:01:58 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 22:01:58 -0800 Subject: Documation card readers for sale In-Reply-To: References: <1BA8D91E-EBB7-4775-BD5A-983EDE5999A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <047101d4943b$b152c540$13f84fc0$@gmail.com> Thanks! Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kyle Owen via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 8:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Documation card readers for sale On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 6:50 PM Curious Marc via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Interested in the Arduino interface too. Will save me some time. Has it > been posted anywhere? > > Marc > Sorry it took me a while to get it. Here's the program, ca. 17 January 2015. https://pastebin.com/uQED05Xk Enjoy, Kyle From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Dec 15 01:54:20 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 07:54:20 +0000 Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine In-Reply-To: <6431B2FE-17A7-40A1-A9BB-225C13220FDC@avanthar.com> References: , <6431B2FE-17A7-40A1-A9BB-225C13220FDC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Zane, your comments are appreciated. I have paid for subscriptions to ebooks that cost ~10 a month, and they are OK for text, but when a schematic comes up, it sucks (scribd) you cant zoom or increase the resolution. I also follow you on your purchase experience with out of print and search. I am dumb or spend hours on search, then find it and think everybody already knows but me. Most recent all the Dr. Dobbs and Byte, Pop Sci online I only found recently. I suppose there is money to be made if you can check in your morals. I see all this (now) public domain type stuff (including Al's bitsavers manuals) for sale on ebay DVDs. The unwashed will be relieved from their dollars. Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Zane Healy via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 5:40 PM To: Fred Cisin; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine > On Dec 14, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> There exist some people who DISCARD materials once they have been scanned. >>> Some people object to calling that "preservation". > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2018, Zane Healy wrote: >> Aren?t these the same people that scan at such poor quality that only the text is ?usable?, and illustrations are largely unusable? > > I wouldn't be surprised if there is substantial overlap between the two groups. Although one would hope that those who think that digital copies are adequate would care about making them adequate. > Admittedly, there are SOME materials where scans need only be adequate for OCR. Certainly Murphy would hold that the least available ones would be those that most need quality scanning. And scan in colour, where it?s important! >> Case in point, I?m trying to track down a 150 year old book, by one of my favorite photography authors, it?s on Google books, but the illustrations, which are vital to understanding what the author is talking about, are largely useless. > > Hmmm. 150 year old photography book would be just after civil war. > My preference for photography books isusually from about 60 to 80 years ago, when publishers could do a good job of B&W plates, and the technology of 35mm was coming along. (Morgan and Lester, etc.) > Occasionally, I'll drive to Carmel to look at Ansel Adams prints at the Weston Gallery - "megapixel" just doesn't cut it! It?s less a technical book, and more a philosophical book on composition, and uses works of a well known 19th century painter in most examples. As for books in the time frame you?re mentioning, don?t forget the ?Ilford Manual of Photography?, the examples for troubleshooting are actually easy to use compared to the newer ?Manual of Photography?, even though they?re mostly the same photo?s. Right now I?m fighting with some processing issues with 8x10 and 11x14 film. Though if I was driving to Carmel, it wouldn?t be to look at Ansel Adams prints, it would be to look at Edward Weston?s. His work for Walt Whitman?s ?Leaves of Grass?, drives much of my efforts. > Is there any way to penetrate the Google infrastructure, to track down who scanned the book, and where it now is? I think I?ve finally tracked down a copy. Part of the hold-up has been ensuring that I don?t buy an older edition. There were at least 4 editions. It?s also *not* a cheap book. Oddly enough, some of the techniques used in the book, seem better suited to Adobe Photoshop. :-) H.P. Robinson was a man before his time! Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 15 02:27:19 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 01:27:19 -0700 Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine In-Reply-To: References: <6431B2FE-17A7-40A1-A9BB-225C13220FDC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <61672d8b-3331-e7ea-1072-b7d076012b1b@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/15/2018 12:54 AM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > Zane, your comments are appreciated. > > I have paid for subscriptions to ebooks that cost ~10 a month, and > they are OK for text, but when a schematic comes up, it sucks > (scribd) you cant zoom or increase the resolution. I also follow you > on your purchase experience with out of print and search. I am dumb > or spend hours on search, then find it and think everybody already > knows but me. Most recent all the Dr. Dobbs and Byte, Pop Sci online > I only found recently. That still leaves Kilobaud scans. > I suppose there is money to be made if you can check in your morals. > I see all this (now) public domain type stuff (including Al's > bitsavers manuals) for sale on ebay DVDs. The unwashed will be > relieved from their dollars. I better shower, so I can clean and EVIL. > Randy ________________________________ Ben. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Dec 15 02:42:54 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:42:54 +0000 Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine In-Reply-To: <61672d8b-3331-e7ea-1072-b7d076012b1b@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6431B2FE-17A7-40A1-A9BB-225C13220FDC@avanthar.com> , <61672d8b-3331-e7ea-1072-b7d076012b1b@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Kilobaud is also up on the Internet archive. https://archive.org/details/kilobaudmagazine Kilobaud Microcomputing Magazine - Internet Archive Kilobaud Microcomputing was a magazine dedicated to the computer homebrew hobbyists from the end of the 1970s until the beginning of the 1980s. Wayne Green, the Publisher/Editor of kilobaud, had been the publisher of BYTE magazine, (another influential microcomputer magazine of the time) where he... archive.org ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of ben via cctalk Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 12:27 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine On 12/15/2018 12:54 AM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > Zane, your comments are appreciated. > > I have paid for subscriptions to ebooks that cost ~10 a month, and > they are OK for text, but when a schematic comes up, it sucks > (scribd) you cant zoom or increase the resolution. I also follow you > on your purchase experience with out of print and search. I am dumb > or spend hours on search, then find it and think everybody already > knows but me. Most recent all the Dr. Dobbs and Byte, Pop Sci online > I only found recently. That still leaves Kilobaud scans. > I suppose there is money to be made if you can check in your morals. > I see all this (now) public domain type stuff (including Al's > bitsavers manuals) for sale on ebay DVDs. The unwashed will be > relieved from their dollars. I better shower, so I can clean and EVIL. > Randy ________________________________ Ben. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 15 03:22:18 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 09:22:18 +0000 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. Message-ID: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core when turned off. Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? Rod Smallwood Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 14 16:09:09 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 22:09:09 +0000 Subject: Researching IBM rare equipment from 50s to 80s In-Reply-To: <578e6148-2228-e1b1-2703-e603cee855ca@charter.net> References: <016301d49399$9eb294d0$dc17be70$@eu>, <578e6148-2228-e1b1-2703-e603cee855ca@charter.net> Message-ID: I worked with an ex-IBMer who told me about this thing. It was nick-named "The Noodle Snatcher" - with a puff of air it wiggled the mag tape and wrapped it around a drum for read/write. It had a nasty habit of mis-handling the tape. He told me that during a sales presentation to a customer, this happened, it wrinkled the tape wrapped it around the drum, and then put the crumpled tape back in the holder. The IBM salesman, without missing a beat, said, "and when it finds BAD data..." ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Jay Jaeger via cctech Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 1:04 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Researching IBM rare equipment from 50s to 80s On 12/14/2018 4:41 AM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > Fellow geeks of more mature vintage, > > Do any of you guys know whether it is possible to find out to whom any IBM > equipment was sold back in the day? (Still chasing IBM 2321 Data Cell - I > never learn!) > > Many thanks, > > peter > Well, if your intention is to actually find one, can't help. I do know that Wisconsin DOT had one back in the day, on an IBM 360/50, but it was gone before I started work there. I think that I have a large negative of the beastie lying around somewhere. No, it is not stuffed anywhere. Indeed the building that formerly housed it (and was home for me during my career) was razed just this year. In general, even if IBM still had such records, I am sure that they would not release them, and doubt that they would be indexed in fine detail such that you could find customers of any particular machine type (unless they fed them to Watson ;) ). Leased units would have been turned back into IBM. Purchased units would have been mostly traded in and scrapped. A Google Search found these instances of customer units (there may well be more - I stopped after a few pages) http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/datacell.html https://www.facebook.com/HealthManagementTechnology/photos/ibm-2321-data-cell-drive/1324757777567020/ https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM2321DataCellAtUMich.jpg JRJ From jimbobrocks92 at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 19:08:12 2018 From: jimbobrocks92 at gmail.com (James Plummer) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 12:08:12 +1100 Subject: Tektronix X11 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi im interested if its dual voltage (110 or 240v 50/60hz) unfortunately i live in australia so postage maybe an issue but i have a us address i could ship it to On 15/12/2018 6:14 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > hi > I have a xp217 tektronix terminal for sale > with its PSU and firmware > > let me know if someone wants it --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 21:53:49 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 19:53:49 -0800 Subject: Latest batch of goodies from Sellam's VWoCW plus 10% off! Message-ID: Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah, folks! And holiday greetings to the rest of us celebrating Festivus! It's time to treat yourself or your favorite nerd for the holidays, so as my gift to you I'm offering 10% off anything with a listing date prior to 2018. Check the "Date Added" column in the warehouse item listings--anything listed in 2016-2017 is 10% off!. If you're a previous buyer (I know who you are) the 10% off applies to anything! Here is the latest batch of listings: Xerox 6085 "Daybreak" CPU Xerox 6085 IOP Input-Output Processor (C4) board Xerox ViewPoint 2.0 Software Installation Xerox ViewPoint 2.0 Documentation Set (Volumes 1-6) Xerox Desktop Publishing Series: Ventura Publisher Edition manuals Xerox Telecopier 7032/7033 Facsimile Terminal User Handbook Connect Computer Z183-2 WonUnder II Western Digital VGA Plus C Future Domain Corp TMC-830 Iomega PC2B SCSI Controller Iomega PC2B50F SCSI Controller Orchid ProDesigner VGA Silicon Graphics O2 Workstation IBM Type 7208-001 External 2.3GB 8mm Tape Drive BM BM-401 486 CPU Breakout Adaptor Compaq DeskPro DSM Monitor HP 2641A/2645A/2645S Display Station Reference Manual HP 2647A Graphics Terminal Manual Set HP 13290A/2649A Data Terminal Reference Manual Advanced Gravis Ultra Sound (boxed) Universal Data Systems 212 LP Modem (boxed) You can get to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders main index to find links to these and many others items here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1#gid=949372371&range=A1 As always, please contact me directly by e-mail via to make an order or an offer. Thanks! Sellam From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 04:19:46 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 05:19:46 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> Perhaps Cypress FM1808 (32Kx8). Obsolete, but available on eBay. SOP for a bit of extra challenge! -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod G8DGR via cctech Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 4:22 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core when turned off. Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? Rod Smallwood Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 04:19:46 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 05:19:46 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> Perhaps Cypress FM1808 (32Kx8). Obsolete, but available on eBay. SOP for a bit of extra challenge! -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod G8DGR via cctech Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 4:22 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core when turned off. Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? Rod Smallwood Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From alan at alanlee.org Sat Dec 15 09:37:19 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 10:37:19 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ramtron had most of the patents on Ferroelectric RAM in the past. Cypress acquired them many years ago. New production FRAM is still sold on Digikey - in 5V SOIC packages. Not cheap though: 8K x 8 - $12.72 (qty 1): https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cypress-semiconductor-corp/FM16W08-SGTR/428-3774-1-ND/6181520 32K x 8 - $19.54 (qty 1): https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cypress-semiconductor-corp/FM18W08-SGTR/428-3775-1-ND/6181516 Completely non-volatile. Faster than most SRAM of the day (130ns cycle time). And good for 100+ trillion write cycles and more than a century of endurance. -Alan On 2018-12-15 05:19, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > Perhaps Cypress FM1808 (32Kx8). Obsolete, but available on eBay. SOP > for a bit of extra challenge! > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > G8DGR via cctech > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 4:22 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. > > I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core > when turned off. > Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? > > Rod Smallwood > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From alan at alanlee.org Sat Dec 15 09:37:19 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 10:37:19 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ramtron had most of the patents on Ferroelectric RAM in the past. Cypress acquired them many years ago. New production FRAM is still sold on Digikey - in 5V SOIC packages. Not cheap though: 8K x 8 - $12.72 (qty 1): https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cypress-semiconductor-corp/FM16W08-SGTR/428-3774-1-ND/6181520 32K x 8 - $19.54 (qty 1): https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cypress-semiconductor-corp/FM18W08-SGTR/428-3775-1-ND/6181516 Completely non-volatile. Faster than most SRAM of the day (130ns cycle time). And good for 100+ trillion write cycles and more than a century of endurance. -Alan On 2018-12-15 05:19, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > Perhaps Cypress FM1808 (32Kx8). Obsolete, but available on eBay. SOP > for a bit of extra challenge! > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > G8DGR via cctech > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 4:22 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. > > I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core > when turned off. > Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? > > Rod Smallwood > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Dec 15 09:57:05 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 10:57:05 -0500 Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <167b295dd14-1ec0-e67@webjas-vae189.srv.aolmail.net> these? may already? be scanned and? out there. ? we? have? ?hardcopy? and? ?what a? joy to? sit? and? ?just? look? though in? a? big? arm chair.... ? If? you have? space....? ?always? great to have? them in? prit? as? the images? for? displays? etc? ?are? better? ? ?than what usually is? out? ?compressed on the? net.? I? have? found though internet? archive? ? has? ?some? jpeg2000 I think it is? ? ?pages? ?for many things? that? are? pretty? sharp. ? ? In a message dated 12/14/2018 11:50:36 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 12/14/18 11:16 AM, John Klos via cctalk wrote: > Hi, all, Hi John, > Does anyone know of any person or organization within a reasonable > distance from southern California who might take these magazines and > preserve them, instead of just selling them on eBay? Have you contacted the Internet Archive and / or BitSavers? I think one or both of them will take things like this and scan them for preservation and to share with other people. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 10:11:11 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 11:11:11 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Texas Instruments' MSP430 MCUs use FRAM. This one for example: http://www.ti.com/product/msp430fr5969 costs ~$2.30. You could do some emulation in the same package, too. Not sure what your speed requirements are of course! =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 10:37 AM alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > Ramtron had most of the patents on Ferroelectric RAM in the past. > Cypress acquired them many years ago. > > New production FRAM is still sold on Digikey - in 5V SOIC packages. Not > cheap though: > > 8K x 8 - $12.72 (qty 1): > > > https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cypress-semiconductor-corp/FM16W08-SGTR/428-3774-1-ND/6181520 > > 32K x 8 - $19.54 (qty 1): > > > https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cypress-semiconductor-corp/FM18W08-SGTR/428-3775-1-ND/6181516 > > Completely non-volatile. Faster than most SRAM of the day (130ns cycle > time). And good for 100+ trillion write cycles and more than a century > of endurance. > > -Alan > > > On 2018-12-15 05:19, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > > Perhaps Cypress FM1808 (32Kx8). Obsolete, but available on eBay. SOP > > for a bit of extra challenge! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > > G8DGR via cctech > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 4:22 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. > > > > I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core > > when turned off. > > Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 10:11:11 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 11:11:11 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Texas Instruments' MSP430 MCUs use FRAM. This one for example: http://www.ti.com/product/msp430fr5969 costs ~$2.30. You could do some emulation in the same package, too. Not sure what your speed requirements are of course! =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 10:37 AM alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > Ramtron had most of the patents on Ferroelectric RAM in the past. > Cypress acquired them many years ago. > > New production FRAM is still sold on Digikey - in 5V SOIC packages. Not > cheap though: > > 8K x 8 - $12.72 (qty 1): > > > https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cypress-semiconductor-corp/FM16W08-SGTR/428-3774-1-ND/6181520 > > 32K x 8 - $19.54 (qty 1): > > > https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cypress-semiconductor-corp/FM18W08-SGTR/428-3775-1-ND/6181516 > > Completely non-volatile. Faster than most SRAM of the day (130ns cycle > time). And good for 100+ trillion write cycles and more than a century > of endurance. > > -Alan > > > On 2018-12-15 05:19, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > > Perhaps Cypress FM1808 (32Kx8). Obsolete, but available on eBay. SOP > > for a bit of extra challenge! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > > G8DGR via cctech > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 4:22 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. > > > > I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core > > when turned off. > > Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 10:38:07 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 11:38:07 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Another vote for RAMtron/Cypress FeRAM. I've used their FeRAMs in a number of systems, here's a writeup on my "core board" for S-100: http://www.glitchwrks.com/2016/03/29/ferroelectric-ram-part-1 I've got a bunch of FM18W08s in stock if you need one, I can stick it on a DIP adapter if needed. One thing to be aware of, RAMtron FeRAMs latch the address bus when *CS goes low, so make sure everything's set up before *CS goes low. Thanks, Jonathan On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 11:11 AM Anders Nelson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Texas Instruments' MSP430 MCUs use FRAM. This one for example: > http://www.ti.com/product/msp430fr5969 costs ~$2.30. > > You could do some emulation in the same package, too. Not sure what your > speed requirements are of course! > > =] > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 10:37 AM alan--- via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > Ramtron had most of the patents on Ferroelectric RAM in the past. > > Cypress acquired them many years ago. > > > > New production FRAM is still sold on Digikey - in 5V SOIC packages. Not > > cheap though: > > > > 8K x 8 - $12.72 (qty 1): > > > > > > > https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cypress-semiconductor-corp/FM16W08-SGTR/428-3774-1-ND/6181520 > > > > 32K x 8 - $19.54 (qty 1): > > > > > > > https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cypress-semiconductor-corp/FM18W08-SGTR/428-3775-1-ND/6181516 > > > > Completely non-volatile. Faster than most SRAM of the day (130ns cycle > > time). And good for 100+ trillion write cycles and more than a century > > of endurance. > > > > -Alan > > > > > > On 2018-12-15 05:19, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > > > Perhaps Cypress FM1808 (32Kx8). Obsolete, but available on eBay. SOP > > > for a bit of extra challenge! > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > > > G8DGR via cctech > > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 4:22 AM > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. > > > > > > I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core > > > when turned off. > > > Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? > > > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Dec 15 10:43:32 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:43:32 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: <02eb04a7-566b-cfd1-3399-d8ab02cf9180@sbcglobal.net> On 12/15/2018 1:22 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core when turned off. > Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? > > Rod Smallwood > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > I used Everspin MRAM chips for my PDP-8e memory cards. It's just like SRAM, fast at 35 ns, and unlimited read/write endurance. Only drawback is it's 3.3 volts only. I just used level converters. It's a magnetoresistive memory, feels just like core. $12 for a 64K x 16 chip at Digikey. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 15 10:45:55 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 16:45:55 +0000 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5B449A770E10BA5B@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) All very interesting.. 1201 alarm while I deal will all of the information Rod Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: systems_glitch via cctalk Sent: 15 December 2018 16:40 To: Anders Nelson; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. Another vote for RAMtron/Cypress FeRAM. I've used their FeRAMs in a number of systems, here's a writeup on my "core board" for S-100: http://www.glitchwrks.com/2016/03/29/ferroelectric-ram-part-1 I've got a bunch of FM18W08s in stock if you need one, I can stick it on a DIP adapter if needed. One thing to be aware of, RAMtron FeRAMs latch the address bus when *CS goes low, so make sure everything's set up before *CS goes low. Thanks, Jonathan On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 11:11 AM Anders Nelson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Texas Instruments' MSP430 MCUs use FRAM. This one for example: > http://www.ti.com/product/msp430fr5969 costs ~$2.30. > > You could do some emulation in the same package, too. Not sure what your > speed requirements are of course! > > =] > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 10:37 AM alan--- via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > Ramtron had most of the patents on Ferroelectric RAM in the past. > > Cypress acquired them many years ago. > > > > New production FRAM is still sold on Digikey - in 5V SOIC packages. Not > > cheap though: > > > > 8K x 8 - $12.72 (qty 1): > > > > > > > https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cypress-semiconductor-corp/FM16W08-SGTR/428-3774-1-ND/6181520 > > > > 32K x 8 - $19.54 (qty 1): > > > > > > > https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cypress-semiconductor-corp/FM18W08-SGTR/428-3775-1-ND/6181516 > > > > Completely non-volatile. Faster than most SRAM of the day (130ns cycle > > time). And good for 100+ trillion write cycles and more than a century > > of endurance. > > > > -Alan > > > > > > On 2018-12-15 05:19, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > > > Perhaps Cypress FM1808 (32Kx8). Obsolete, but available on eBay. SOP > > > for a bit of extra challenge! > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > > > G8DGR via cctech > > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 4:22 AM > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. > > > > > > I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core > > > when turned off. > > > Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? > > > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 15 10:48:27 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 16:48:27 +0000 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <02eb04a7-566b-cfd1-3399-d8ab02cf9180@sbcglobal.net> References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <02eb04a7-566b-cfd1-3399-d8ab02cf9180@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5BC47A870576CA7C@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) 1201.. 1201 .. Processing large amount of data... Rod Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk Sent: 15 December 2018 16:45 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. On 12/15/2018 1:22 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core when turned off. > Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? > > Rod Smallwood > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > I used Everspin MRAM chips for my PDP-8e memory cards. It's just like SRAM, fast at 35 ns, and unlimited read/write endurance. Only drawback is it's 3.3 volts only. I just used level converters. It's a magnetoresistive memory, feels just like core. $12 for a 64K x 16 chip at Digikey. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Dec 15 10:56:50 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 09:56:50 -0700 Subject: Tektronix X11 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/14/18 12:14 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > hi Hi, > I have a xp217 tektronix terminal for sale with its PSU and firmware Where are you / is it located? > let me know if someone wants it I've had a passing interest in an X11 terminal for a while now. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 15 11:15:10 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 11:15:10 -0600 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: <5C15369E.3020107@pico-systems.com> On 12/15/2018 03:22 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core when turned off. > Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? > > Any CMOS SRAM chips can do this, with a backup battery. I used a IS62WV6416DBLL in a project a while ago. I did not use in in battery-backed mode, but it could do that. You do have to make sure that any outputs from the memory are driven to the high-impedance state during power-off to prevent draining the battery. Jon From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Dec 15 12:01:41 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 10:01:41 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: FRAM or MRAM. I make extensive use of them in my projects. Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v). As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb (512K x 8 or 256K x 16). TTFN - Guy > On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:22 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > > I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core when turned off. > Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? > > Rod Smallwood > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Dec 15 12:14:03 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 10:14:03 -0800 Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine In-Reply-To: References: <6431B2FE-17A7-40A1-A9BB-225C13220FDC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <4E94ED27-9DE0-46D9-AF4B-36F7BB8039A0@avanthar.com> > On Dec 14, 2018, at 11:54 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > Zane, your comments are appreciated. > > I have paid for subscriptions to ebooks that cost ~10 a month, and they are OK for text, but when a schematic comes up, it sucks (scribd) you cant zoom or increase the resolution. > I also follow you on your purchase experience with out of print and search. > I am dumb or spend hours on search, then find it and think everybody already knows but me. Most recent all the Dr. Dobbs and Byte, Pop Sci online I only found recently. > I suppose there is money to be made if you can check in your morals. I see all this (now) public domain type stuff (including Al's bitsavers manuals) for sale on ebay DVDs. > The unwashed will be relieved from their dollars. > > Randy Now you?re touching on something that really ticks me off, and I?ve seen it done using Google Books, and others (the book I bought before I knew what was going on was done using a Google Books scan). That?s the growing market on ?Print On Demand? books done using these scans. Many of these books are still covered under the original copywrite. And of course, there are the folks selling the CD?s and DVD?s on eBay. The people offering ?reproductions" for sale in these fashions harm the community as a whole. It also makes it rather challenging to find original copies for sale, as you have to wade through so many of these offerings. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 15 12:55:03 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 10:55:03 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/15/18 10:01 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > FRAM or MRAM. I make extensive use of them in my projects. > > Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v). As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb (512K x 8 or 256K x 16). As neither MRAM nor FRAM requires a write-after-read refresh, I fail to see the "realism" in this that couldn't be satisfied with simple battery-backed RAM or even flash-backed RAM. Yes, MRAM is magnetic, but ti's not the same principle as real core. FWIW, Chuck From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 12:58:26 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 13:58:26 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: Chuck, FRAM is destructive read on the die, from what I understand. It's just that the onboard controller takes care of it for you, much like a core subsystem. Thanks, Jonathan On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 1:55 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/15/18 10:01 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > > FRAM or MRAM. I make extensive use of them in my projects. > > > > Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v). As I recall they run ~$20/ea for > 4Mb (512K x 8 or 256K x 16). > > As neither MRAM nor FRAM requires a write-after-read refresh, I fail to > see the "realism" in this that couldn't be satisfied with simple > battery-backed RAM or even flash-backed RAM. > > Yes, MRAM is magnetic, but ti's not the same principle as real core. > > FWIW, > Chuck > > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 14:15:27 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 15:15:27 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: If you want the real deal you can always make a driver out of a bunch of H-bridge ICs and an old core plane. I'll skip suggesting you weave your own core... On Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 2:01 PM systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > Chuck, > > FRAM is destructive read on the die, from what I understand. It's just that > the onboard controller takes care of it for you, much like a core > subsystem. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 1:55 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 12/15/18 10:01 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > > > FRAM or MRAM. I make extensive use of them in my projects. > > > > > > Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v). As I recall they run ~$20/ea > for > > 4Mb (512K x 8 or 256K x 16). > > > > As neither MRAM nor FRAM requires a write-after-read refresh, I fail to > > see the "realism" in this that couldn't be satisfied with simple > > battery-backed RAM or even flash-backed RAM. > > > > Yes, MRAM is magnetic, but ti's not the same principle as real core. > > > > FWIW, > > Chuck > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 15 14:26:40 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 12:26:40 -0800 Subject: Data Electronics Incorporated (DEI) CMTD-300S2 tape drive manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've got a 3M DCD drive that's very similar--fixed multi-track head. I've never seen a practical use for it, however, given the terribleness of old QIC carts. DEI also re-packaged the Exabyte 8mm transports in their own enclosures with their own LCD readouts. I've got one such drive here. --Chuck On 12/14/18 9:46 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: > For view or download: http://bit.ly/2RZK28Q > > I came across this, and noticed that this early of a DEI model was not yet > archived at > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dei > > I'm not sure that it is scanned to the requirements of bitsavers, but I > don't have access to the original, so I offer this if it is usable or of > interest to anyone here. > > I'll probably also post it on one of my sites, at http://QICreader.com > > I also just acquired this DEI 301034-2 QIC Tape Drive, and have begun to > reverse-engineer it. > https://ebay.to/2EjyxFn > > Best always, From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Sat Dec 15 14:32:45 2018 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 21:32:45 +0100 Subject: AW: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. Message-ID: <068601d494b5$567c11b0$03743510$@liftoff.at> Hi Rod, take some microcontroller and some serial flash memory. With best regards Gerhard -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2018 19:00 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 15 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." From john at ziaspace.com Sat Dec 15 14:43:41 2018 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 20:43:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for a home for most issues of BYTE Magazine Message-ID: Thank you all for all of the interest. The first person who wrote me isn't far away at all and will give it a good home, so I'm going to go with him. While I'm fetching those, I'm going to make a list of other older hardware for which I'd like to find homes, so I'll post about that, and possibly about other magazines, in a week or so. Thanks! John From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 14:45:57 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 15:45:57 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <068601d494b5$567c11b0$03743510$@liftoff.at> References: <068601d494b5$567c11b0$03743510$@liftoff.at> Message-ID: Serial flash has an endurance between 10K-100K writes per cell so I think that would break down quickly. Wear-leveling on a serial device would be very slow... On Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 3:33 PM Gerhard Kreuzer via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > Hi Rod, > > take some microcontroller and some serial flash memory. > > With best regards > > Gerhard > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2018 19:00 > An: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 15 > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 15 14:51:35 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 14:51:35 -0600 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <068601d494b5$567c11b0$03743510$@liftoff.at> Message-ID: <5C156957.8080503@pico-systems.com> On 12/15/2018 02:45 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Serial flash has an endurance between 10K-100K writes per cell so I think > that would break down quickly. Wear-leveling on a serial device would be > very slow... > > If you intend to use it as main core memory on an old CPU, it will perform VERY poorly, as these memories need to erase a page at a time, and the erase takes milliseconds. So, writing ONE SINGLE word at a time would invoke an erase cycle each time, slowing it to 1/1000 or worse the speed of the original core memory. Also, most old CPUs have the memory timing built into the CPU, and can't handle a memory that says "wait". Jon From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Dec 15 15:15:18 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 13:15:18 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5C156957.8080503@pico-systems.com> References: <068601d494b5$567c11b0$03743510$@liftoff.at> <5C156957.8080503@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 15, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/15/2018 02:45 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >> Serial flash has an endurance between 10K-100K writes per cell so I think >> that would break down quickly. Wear-leveling on a serial device would be >> very slow... >> >> > If you intend to use it as main core memory on an old CPU, it will perform VERY poorly, as these memories need to erase a page at a time, and the erase takes milliseconds. So, writing ONE SINGLE word at a time would invoke an erase cycle each time, slowing it to 1/1000 or worse the speed of the original core memory. Also, most old CPUs have the memory timing built into the CPU, and can't handle a memory that says "wait?. Anything FLASH related is quickly going to have issues because of the limited write endurance (1000s of cycles only). It?s one of the issues that I?m facing with the disk emulators that I?m (trying to) work on. But it works better there because of the block nature of disks (and I?m using a larger FLASH than necessary to allow for wear leveling plus some really heavy duty error correction?had to refresh myself on error coding theory again). For core replacements, as I?ve said previously, I prefer MRAM. They?re as fast as SRAM (35-55ns) with unlimited write endurance, 10+ year data retention and non-volitive (implied by the data retention). Other than the 3.3v interfaces (and SMT?but almost everything is SMT these days) they?re ideal. TTFN - Guy From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Dec 15 15:18:01 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 14:18:01 -0700 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5C156957.8080503@pico-systems.com> References: <068601d494b5$567c11b0$03743510$@liftoff.at> <5C156957.8080503@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 1:51 PM Jon Elson via cctalk On 12/15/2018 02:45 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Serial flash has an endurance between 10K-100K writes per cell so I think > > that would break down quickly. Wear-leveling on a serial device would be > > very slow... > > > > > If you intend to use it as main core memory on an old CPU, > it will perform VERY poorly, as these memories need to erase > a page at a time, and the erase takes milliseconds. So, > writing ONE SINGLE word at a time would invoke an erase > cycle each time, slowing it to 1/1000 or worse the speed of > the original core memory. Also, most old CPUs have the > memory timing built into the CPU, and can't handle a memory > that says "wait". > If you paired it with a microcontroller, you might be able to implement a log device and then manage to logical to physical translation ala FTLs in SSD land... but it would be ugly as heck and you'd still have the stall to worry about when you got to the end of the erase block... better performance, but maybe beyond a cheap uc... Warner > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Dec 15 15:24:55 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 13:24:55 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <068601d494b5$567c11b0$03743510$@liftoff.at> <5C156957.8080503@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <67B97655-B6D4-4808-9BA5-D3EF2EF209DA@shiresoft.com> > On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:18 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 1:51 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> On 12/15/2018 02:45 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >>> Serial flash has an endurance between 10K-100K writes per cell so I think >>> that would break down quickly. Wear-leveling on a serial device would be >>> very slow... >>> >>> >> If you intend to use it as main core memory on an old CPU, >> it will perform VERY poorly, as these memories need to erase >> a page at a time, and the erase takes milliseconds. So, >> writing ONE SINGLE word at a time would invoke an erase >> cycle each time, slowing it to 1/1000 or worse the speed of >> the original core memory. Also, most old CPUs have the >> memory timing built into the CPU, and can't handle a memory >> that says "wait". >> > > If you paired it with a microcontroller, you might be able to implement a > log device and then manage to logical to physical translation ala FTLs in > SSD land... but it would be ugly as heck and you'd still have the stall to > worry about when you got to the end of the erase block... better > performance, but maybe beyond a cheap uc? And my question is why go through all of that pain when an FRAM or MRAM device can do this with no hackery? What you?re describing is the very definition of an ?impedance mismatch?. You?re trying to use a block oriented device as a byte device and attempting to paper over the differences. I think the end result would be less than satisfactory in almost every measurable dimension. TTFN - Guy From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Dec 15 15:30:26 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 14:30:26 -0700 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <67B97655-B6D4-4808-9BA5-D3EF2EF209DA@shiresoft.com> References: <068601d494b5$567c11b0$03743510$@liftoff.at> <5C156957.8080503@pico-systems.com> <67B97655-B6D4-4808-9BA5-D3EF2EF209DA@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 2:25 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr > > On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:18 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 1:51 PM Jon Elson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > wrote: > > > >> On 12/15/2018 02:45 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > >>> Serial flash has an endurance between 10K-100K writes per cell so I > think > >>> that would break down quickly. Wear-leveling on a serial device would > be > >>> very slow... > >>> > >>> > >> If you intend to use it as main core memory on an old CPU, > >> it will perform VERY poorly, as these memories need to erase > >> a page at a time, and the erase takes milliseconds. So, > >> writing ONE SINGLE word at a time would invoke an erase > >> cycle each time, slowing it to 1/1000 or worse the speed of > >> the original core memory. Also, most old CPUs have the > >> memory timing built into the CPU, and can't handle a memory > >> that says "wait". > >> > > > > If you paired it with a microcontroller, you might be able to implement a > > log device and then manage to logical to physical translation ala FTLs in > > SSD land... but it would be ugly as heck and you'd still have the stall > to > > worry about when you got to the end of the erase block... better > > performance, but maybe beyond a cheap uc? > > And my question is why go through all of that pain when an FRAM or MRAM > device can do this with no hackery? > > What you?re describing is the very definition of an ?impedance mismatch?. > You?re trying to use a block oriented device as a byte device and > attempting > to paper over the differences. I think the end result would be less than > satisfactory in almost every measurable dimension. > True. Lessening the pain still doesn't make it right :). MRAM or FRAM does sound a lot simpler to use... Warner > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 15 15:48:25 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 13:48:25 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <068601d494b5$567c11b0$03743510$@liftoff.at> <5C156957.8080503@pico-systems.com> <67B97655-B6D4-4808-9BA5-D3EF2EF209DA@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1c8f7760-8136-3d92-b3f9-13c17038065a@sydex.com> On 12/15/18 1:30 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > True. Lessening the pain still doesn't make it right :). MRAM or FRAM does > sound a lot simpler to use... How about nvRAM? Faster, with high capacity. Stores into flash (every CMOS RAM cell is paired with a flash cell) when the supply drops below a certain level; restores data to RAM upon power-up. http://www.cypress.com/products/nvsram-nonvolatile-sram --Chuck From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Dec 15 16:33:41 2018 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 17:33:41 -0500 Subject: Christmas came early... Message-ID: <057a01d494c6$3bbe9c10$b33bd430$@verizon.net> In the form of an estate sale. The first in a long while where I found anything interesting. In addition to buying a large box of 7400 and 4000 series chips, all with 1970's date codes, I got two vintage keyboards: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/kb_pics/20181215_162104.jpg http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/kb_pics/20181215_162139.jpg The estate sale employees have no idea where the associated systems (if any) are. They did not see them during the sale preparation and have not sold them. I also got a manual and set of 8 inch floppies for "Unicorn Systems Software Tools For CP/M". Twenty floppies, all with factory labels, various libraries, utilities and documentation files. I have not made a careful study of them yet (I just got home with them an hour ago). Bill S. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 16:57:06 2018 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 17:57:06 -0500 Subject: Christmas came early... In-Reply-To: <057a01d494c6$3bbe9c10$b33bd430$@verizon.net> References: <057a01d494c6$3bbe9c10$b33bd430$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Bill, They are both great looking period keyboards but I do particularly love the George Risk keyboard. It might not be a model 756 but I do have some documentation and hopefully it can help. Check http://vintagecomputer.ca/files/George%20Risk%20Industries/ On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 5:34 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > In the form of an estate sale. The first in a long while where I found > anything interesting. In addition to buying a large box of 7400 and 4000 > series chips, all with 1970's date codes, I got two vintage keyboards: > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/kb_pics/20181215_162104.jpg > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/kb_pics/20181215_162139.jpg > > The estate sale employees have no idea where the associated systems (if > any) are. They did not see them during the sale preparation and have not > sold them. I also got a manual and set of 8 inch floppies for "Unicorn > Systems Software Tools For CP/M". Twenty floppies, all with factory > labels, various libraries, utilities and documentation files. I have not > made a careful study of them yet (I just got home with them an hour ago). > > Bill S. > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Dec 15 17:26:59 2018 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 18:26:59 -0500 Subject: Christmas came early... In-Reply-To: References: <057a01d494c6$3bbe9c10$b33bd430$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <058a01d494cd$add263c0$09772b40$@verizon.net> Thanks for the link. I just opened both of them (I didn?t take pictures, maybe later). The GRI is a factory 753. It is spotless inside, wired per spec. I made a 753 work-alike for my IMSAI with the Processor Technology Subsystem B board set: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2009/IMG_0561-L.jpg http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2009/IMG_0562-L.jpg I can?t wait to check it out and replace my Frankenstein keyboard with it. The other keyboard contains a ?Cherry 026-0738 Art Rev. C? keyboard unit. It also has ?001-1085? on the board. The board has three ICs ?dead bugged? on the back of it with ?white wires? running all around, including to the I/O edge connector. I?m not familiar with this unit, I?m starting to look for schematics now. Bill S. From: Santo Nucifora [mailto:santo.nucifora at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 5:57 PM To: William Sudbrink; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Christmas came early... Hi Bill, They are both great looking period keyboards but I do particularly love the George Risk keyboard. It might not be a model 756 but I do have some documentation and hopefully it can help. Check http://vintagecomputer.ca/files/George%20Risk%20Industries/ On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 5:34 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: In the form of an estate sale. The first in a long while where I found anything interesting. In addition to buying a large box of 7400 and 4000 series chips, all with 1970's date codes, I got two vintage keyboards: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/kb_pics/20181215_162104.jpg http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/kb_pics/20181215_162139.jpg The estate sale employees have no idea where the associated systems (if any) are. They did not see them during the sale preparation and have not sold them. I also got a manual and set of 8 inch floppies for "Unicorn Systems Software Tools For CP/M". Twenty floppies, all with factory labels, various libraries, utilities and documentation files. I have not made a careful study of them yet (I just got home with them an hour ago). Bill S. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From norbert_kehrer at yahoo.de Sat Dec 15 10:17:39 2018 From: norbert_kehrer at yahoo.de (Norbert Kehrer) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 17:17:39 +0100 Subject: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20 Message-ID: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> Hi, the Epson HX-20 handheld computer offered an interesting way to connect it with peripheral devices. The serial port at the back of the computer can talk to external hardware using an Epson-specific protocol for data exchange. As this protocol is quite well documented, I wrote a little program called "flashx20" (for FLoppy And Screen for the HX-20), which allows to connect a normal Windows PC or notebook computer to the HX-20, where the PC interprets the Epson serial protocol and simulates an external display controller and four external floppy disk drives (like e.g. the Epson TF-20). With that, you get a big screen (the PC monitor) and disk space for programs and data on the PC's hard disk, which can then also be used for data and program exchange. You can read more about it and download the program from my website at http://members.aon.at/nkehrer/ Norbert From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 19:42:07 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 18:42:07 -0700 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 11:55 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/15/18 10:01 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > > FRAM or MRAM. I make extensive use of them in my projects. > > > > Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v). As I recall they run ~$20/ea for > 4Mb (512K x 8 or 256K x 16). > > As neither MRAM nor FRAM requires a write-after-read refresh, I fail to > see the "realism" in this that couldn't be satisfied with simple > battery-backed RAM or even flash-backed RAM. > FRAM requires write-after-read refresh, but it's done internally to the part. That's why FRAM has limited read endurance; each read also does a write. FRAM endurance is typically 10^14 cycles (check the datasheet of a specific part), which is adequate for most uses. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 20:32:19 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 18:32:19 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5c15b54f.1c69fb81.f5e5d.2e48SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> <5c15b54f.1c69fb81.f5e5d.2e48SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 6:15 PM Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > All very interesting.. 1201 alarm while I deal will all of the information > Rod > > 1202 coming up... I don't know specifically about the various memory types being bandied about, but I do know that the destructive read behavior of core memory my be required for some architectures; "load and clear" type instructions rely on the suppressing the write-after-read cycle to make the instruction atomic, allowing the implementation of data locking instructions. For some architectures, it may be that any replacement memory would have to support the suppression signal to work correctly. -- Charles From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 00:10:36 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 00:10:36 -0600 Subject: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> References: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 5:47 PM Norbert Kehrer via cctalk wrote: > With that, you get a big screen (the PC monitor) and disk space for > programs and data on the PC's hard disk, which can then also be used for > data and program exchange. This is great - thank you for writing it! I have at least one HX-20. IIRC it was used for Motorola radio programming and had custom ROMS. Do you know what other Epson portables (if any) used the same protocol? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 16 00:21:18 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 22:21:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: References: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> Message-ID: > On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 5:47 PM Norbert Kehrer via cctalk > wrote: >> With that, you get a big screen (the PC monitor) and disk space for >> programs and data on the PC's hard disk, which can then also be used for >> data and program exchange. On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > This is great - thank you for writing it! I have at least one HX-20. > IIRC it was used for Motorola radio programming and had custom ROMS. > Do you know what other Epson portables (if any) used the same protocol? The Epson HC-20 probably did. It was essentially the same machine, in silver-grey, instead of beige, with both English and katakana keyboard and character generator ROMs. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Dec 16 01:36:29 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 07:36:29 +0000 Subject: 8-Update Message-ID: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Sheesh!! Well what a response. This stems from my (so far) successful major over haul of my PDP-8/e. I found one failed 7474 and one failed 8881 ? replaced and now working. I think I have the rim loader toggled in and will attempt to send a paper tape image from Hyperterm Strangely I do have at least three genuine complete 4k memory sets. The eightstoration will continue. However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an ?8/e out of ?modern parts. As you all know I make front panels so that?s not a problem. I did manage to copy my (distorted) bezel in resin. A friend has been able to 3D print toggle switch leavers that fit and work. Vince Sylngstat has done a console board PCB ?layout. Power supply clearly not a problem. So what?s left? Case? ? Well I have one of those and I suspect a sheet metal shop would not have a problem Finally the big one ? Omnibus and the connectors its made from. A 3D printing candidate? I?m going to autopsy a busted connector and see how they are constructed inside. Objectives The basic board set as original. M8300, M8310, M8320 etc. Same form factor Plug compatible ? but board contents can differ from original The idea is replace one item at time until you no longer have any DEC parts. Yup a FAKE-8 I may even need a label ?No part in this PDP-8/e computer was manufactured by digital equipment corporation? Rod Smallwood digital equipment corporation 1975-1985 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 02:14:53 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 03:14:53 -0500 Subject: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <5c160084.1c69fb81.52fd0.7866SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5c160084.1c69fb81.52fd0.7866SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <011001d49517$6cec29f0$46c47dd0$@gmail.com> >-----Original Message----- >-From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod G8DGR via cctalk >-Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2018 2:36 AM >-To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >-Subject: 8-Update > >Sheesh!! >Well what a response. >This stems from my (so far) successful major over haul of my PDP-8/e. >I found one failed 7474 and one failed 8881 ? replaced and now working. >I think I have the rim loader toggled in and will attempt to send a paper tape image from Hyperterm >Strangely I do have at least three genuine complete 4k memory sets. > >The eightstoration will continue. > >However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an 8/e out of modern parts. >As you all know I make front panels so that?s not a problem. >I did manage to copy my (distorted) bezel in resin. >A friend has been able to 3D print toggle switch leavers that fit and work. >... Could you (or your fried) tell us more about "A friend has been able to 3D print toggle switch leavers that fit and work"? I have need to do the same :-<. And I don't have a 3D printer, either. paul From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 21:09:00 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 22:09:00 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/15/2018 01:01 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctech wrote: > FRAM or MRAM. I make extensive use of them in my projects. > > Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v). As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb (512K x 8 or 256K x 16). > > TTFN - Guy > >> On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:22 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core when turned off. >> Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> My call on this is that cmos static ram 4Bit wide does the job well I have 32K of it in my PDP-8 to get past possible failure of hard to find and get core.? A Panasonic BR-1 lithium cell has enough capacity at the measured drain for about 6-7 years and the Dallas power management chip makes it a non hack.? Flash, EEprom and Magnetic FRAM and MRAM) types have many unacceptable properties for a random access read write memory.? It makes no difference to the PDP8(ILEFMA) that read is not destructive as it will write back as needed anyway. There is a design on the 'net for using CMOS ram in a straight forward buildable array for Omnibus with battery back up that is fine.? Don;t get wraped around the axle about RMW as any sufficiently fast ram can do that without wearout.? And compared to core it doesn't take much speed. EEprom and Flash work fine for read mostly disks or disk simulators. Allison From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Dec 15 22:23:23 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 20:23:23 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: > On Dec 15, 2018, at 7:09 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > > On 12/15/2018 01:01 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctech wrote: >> FRAM or MRAM. I make extensive use of them in my projects. >> >> Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v). As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb (512K x 8 or 256K x 16). >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >>> On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:22 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core when turned off. >>> Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? >>> >>> Rod Smallwood >>> >>> > Flash, EEprom and Magnetic FRAM and MRAM) types > have many unacceptable > properties for a random access read write memory. I think you?re mistaken about FRAM and MRAM. They are byte oriented devices and are designed to replace SRAM + battery. Which in my mind makes them preferable as they reduce parts count. The current MRAM has unlimited write endurance (same as SRAM) and depending upon the part is 35-55ns access/cycle time. FRAM has a similar access time but requires an internal restore so it?s cycle time is about 2x (one of the reasons I prefer MRAM now). TTFN - Guy From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 15 23:19:38 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 05:19:38 +0000 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: <5B93D59408E8EE3B@rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: allison via cctech Sent: 16 December 2018 03:08 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. On 12/15/2018 01:01 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctech wrote: > FRAM or MRAM. I make extensive use of them in my projects. > > Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v). As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb (512K x 8 or 256K x 16). > > TTFN - Guy > >> On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:22 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core when turned off. >> Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> My call on this is that cmos static ram 4Bit wide does the job well I have 32K of it in my PDP-8 to get past possible failure of hard to find and get core.? A Panasonic BR-1 lithium cell has enough capacity at the measured drain for about 6-7 years and the Dallas power management chip makes it a non hack.? Flash, EEprom and Magnetic FRAM and MRAM) types have many unacceptable properties for a random access read write memory.? It makes no difference to the PDP8(ILEFMA) that read is not destructive as it will write back as needed anyway. There is a design on the 'net for using CMOS ram in a straight forward buildable array for Omnibus with battery back up that is fine.? Don;t get wraped around the axle about RMW as any sufficiently fast ram can do that without wearout.? And compared to core it doesn't take much speed. EEprom and Flash work fine for read mostly disks or disk simulators. Allison Sheesh!! Well what a response. This stems from my (so far) successful major over haul of my PDP-8/e. I found one failed 7474 and one failed 8881 ? replaced and now working. I think I have the rim loader toggled in and will attempt to send a paper tape image from Hyperterm Strangely I do have at least three genuine complete 4k memory sets. However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an 8/e out of modern parts. As you all know I make front panels so that?s not a problem. I did manage to copy my (distorted) bezel in resin. A friend has been able to 3D print toggle switch leavers that fit and work. Vince Sylngstat has done a console board PCB layout. Power supply clearly not a problem. So what?s left? Case? Well I have one of those and I suspect a sheet metal shop would not have a problem Finally the big one ? Omnibus and the connectors its made from. A 3D printing candidate? I?m going to autopsy a busted connector and see how they are constructed inside. Objectives The basic board set as original. M8300, M8310, M8320 etc. Same form factor Plug compatible ? but board contents can differ from original The idea is replace one item at time until you no longer have any DEC parts. Yup a FAKE-8 I may even need a label ?No part in this PDP-8/e computer was manufactured by digital equipment corporation? Rod Smallwood From norbert_kehrer at yahoo.de Sun Dec 16 04:44:52 2018 From: norbert_kehrer at yahoo.de (Norbert Kehrer) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 11:44:52 +0100 Subject: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> References: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> Message-ID: <41dfbfb6-6bbb-67ee-15ab-7979024fec84@yahoo.de> >/On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 5:47 PM Norbert Kehrer via cctalk />/> wrote: />>/With that, you get a big screen (the PC monitor) and disk space for />>/programs and data on the PC's hard disk, which can then also be used for />>/data and program exchange. / On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Jason T via cctalk wrote: >/This is great - thank you for writing it! I have at least one HX-20. />/IIRC it was used for Motorola radio programming and had custom ROMS. />/Do you know what other Epson portables (if any) used the same protocol? / On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >The Epson HC-20 probably did. >It was essentially the same machine, in silver-grey, instead of beige, >with both English and katakana keyboard and character generator ROMs. I have not tested it, but I suppose, that also the PX-8 and PX-4 used the protocol, because the protocol specification defines the following device numbers: - HX-20: 0x20 (probably also used for the HC-20) - PX-8: 0x22 - PX-4: 0x23 From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 16 10:36:54 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 11:36:54 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <167b7e0afea-1ec4-1842@webjas-vad193.srv.aolmail.net> Anyone building? 8 omnibus? batter? backed up core? replacement? currently? that? is? available off the? shelf reasonably for? ?8 m,e and? f? (( Smaller? size? board? than the? ?8a? ?would accept? ?for memory as I? remember..)) ? Have? a 8 m or? f? in my? den on a? shelf...? ?as? as I? best? remember? it? 20? years ago? had? 4 k or? ?flaky? core in it.? might? be? fun? to play? with.? ? Alas? there? might? me other things? wrong on other boards? by now? too.... ? Ed# ? ? ? In a message dated 12/16/2018 6:44:55 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 12/15/2018 01:01 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctech wrote: > FRAM or MRAM. I make extensive use of them in my projects. > > Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v). As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb (512K x 8 or 256K x 16). > > TTFN - Guy > >> On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:22 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core when turned off. >> Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this? >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> My call on this is that cmos static ram 4Bit wide does the job well I have 32K of it in my PDP-8 to get past possible failure of hard to find and get core.? A Panasonic BR-1 lithium cell has enough capacity at the measured drain for about 6-7 years and the Dallas power management chip makes it a non hack.? Flash, EEprom and Magnetic FRAM and MRAM) types have many unacceptable properties for a random access read write memory.? It makes no difference to the PDP8(ILEFMA) that read is not destructive as it will write back as needed anyway. There is a design on the 'net for using CMOS ram in a straight forward buildable array for Omnibus with battery back up that is fine.? Don;t get wraped around the axle about RMW as any sufficiently fast ram can do that without wearout.? And compared to core it doesn't take much speed. EEprom and Flash work fine for read mostly disks or disk simulators. Allison From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Dec 16 10:43:18 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 10:43:18 -0600 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5B93D59408E8EE3B@rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5B93D59408E8EE3B@rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: <5C1680A6.6040304@pico-systems.com> On 12/15/2018 11:19 PM, Rod G8DGR via cctech wrote: > > > However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an 8/e out of modern parts. > > > Finally the big one ? Omnibus and the connectors its made from. A 3D printing candidate? > I?m going to autopsy a busted connector and see how they are constructed inside. Yup, this will be a problem. A couple decades ago, there was a very common technology, press-fit backplanes. You made a PC board with all the interconnect on it (power + signals) and pressed-in contact fingers. Then, connector housings were pressed onto the contacts. I don't know if anybody still makes these contacts. It would be hugely expensive to have custom ones made, but if they are still being made they might not be too bad. I'm not sure 3D-printed housings would be strong enough for this, but maybe if ABS they would. Of course, there might actually still be somebody making clones of the DEC connectors. They used basically the same design for PDP-8, PDP-11, KL10, VAX, etc. Certainly, there were people cloning them back in the 1980's. Winchester made the official ones for DEC. > Objectives > The basic board set as original. M8300, M8310, M8320 etc. > Same form factor > Plug compatible ? but board contents can differ from original Well, this could all be done with one FPGA, but if you want to do each PC board separately, a modest CPLD or small FPGA would certainly do each board's functionality. Jon From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Dec 16 11:55:00 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 10:55:00 -0700 Subject: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <011001d49517$6cec29f0$46c47dd0$@gmail.com> References: <5c160084.1c69fb81.52fd0.7866SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <011001d49517$6cec29f0$46c47dd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/16/18 1:14 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > I don't have a 3D printer, I've found that maker spaces and some computer stores (notably Microcenter) have 3D printers and seem quite happy to help people use them. (Membership, training, feeds not withstanding.) I've also heard of some 3D printer owners printing things and mailing them to people. I know a guy who knows people. If you want help. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Dec 16 11:42:30 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 17:42:30 +0000 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5C1680A6.6040304@pico-systems.com> References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5B93D59408E8EE3B@rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) <5C1680A6.6040304@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5BC47A870588BE4F@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Jon Elson via cctech Sent: 16 December 2018 16:43 To: Rod G8DGR; General at ezwind.net; Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. On 12/15/2018 11:19 PM, Rod G8DGR via cctech wrote: > > > However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an 8/e out of modern parts. > > > Finally the big one ? Omnibus and the connectors its made from. A 3D printing candidate? > I?m going to autopsy a busted connector and see how they are constructed inside. Yup, this will be a problem. A couple decades ago, there was a very common technology, press-fit backplanes. You made a PC board with all the interconnect on it (power + signals) and pressed-in contact fingers. Then, connector housings were pressed onto the contacts. I don't know if anybody still makes these contacts. It would be hugely expensive to have custom ones made, but if they are still being made they might not be too bad. I'm not sure 3D-printed housings would be strong enough for this, but maybe if ABS they would. Of course, there might actually still be somebody making clones of the DEC connectors. They used basically the same design for PDP-8, PDP-11, KL10, VAX, etc. Certainly, there were people cloning them back in the 1980's. Winchester made the official ones for DEC. > Objectives > The basic board set as original. M8300, M8310, M8320 etc. > Same form factor > Plug compatible ? but board contents can differ from original Well, this could all be done with one FPGA, but if you want to do each PC board separately, a modest CPLD or small FPGA would certainly do each board's functionality. Jon TTL I understand. FPGA == Black Magic and Snake OiI to me. Rod From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Dec 16 13:21:37 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 14:21:37 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: <3CDD3136-6FE9-484E-B216-A7FDD9AD92B8@comcast.net> > On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:55 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/15/18 10:01 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >> FRAM or MRAM. I make extensive use of them in my projects. >> >> Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v). As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb (512K x 8 or 256K x 16). > > As neither MRAM nor FRAM requires a write-after-read refresh, I fail to > see the "realism" in this that couldn't be satisfied with simple > battery-backed RAM or even flash-backed RAM. > > Yes, MRAM is magnetic, but ti's not the same principle as real core. The key question is what the level of accuracy of the emulation is. If you simply want non-volatile memory, the obvious answer is SRAM with battery backup and a small FPGA to do the interfacing. If you need to emulate the destructive read, the same but with a slightly more complex FPGA. It's hard to see -- other than "because you can" -- why it's useful to emulate the destructive read. Read/modify/write will work without the destructive read, so long as a write simply overwrites what was in the word. The only place I can think of where the destructive read propery is useful is in CDC 6000 series peripheral processor memory, at least when you're debugging PP programs that get stuck -- a memory dump taken after a restart will show a zero at the point of the hang. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 16 13:38:34 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 11:38:34 -0800 Subject: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/15/18 11:36 PM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an ?8/e out of ?modern parts. Redoing the CPU in obtanium TTL would be desirable. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 16 13:57:57 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 11:57:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <5c160084.1c69fb81.52fd0.7866SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <011001d49517$6cec29f0$46c47dd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/16/18 1:14 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > I don't have a 3D printer, Check out the "Ender3" series. Open source design, multiple manufacturers (some with enhancements), and starting at just over $200 ! Can connect to computer, or stand-alone, working from content on micro-SD card. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Dec 16 13:58:34 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 11:58:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5C1680A6.6040304@pico-systems.com> References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <5B93D59408E8EE3B@rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) <5C1680A6.6040304@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > made, but if they are still being made they might not be too bad. I'm not > sure 3D-printed housings would be strong enough for this, but maybe if ABS PLA is actually a stiffer plastic than ABS. That being said, PETG might be a better choice due to the heat found inside the enclosure. ABS can be pretty difficult to print if you're not working with a heated enclosure. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 16 14:00:30 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:00:30 -0500 Subject: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 Message-ID: <167b89b163c-1ec3-1a3e@webjas-vad008.srv.aolmail.net> How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL INGEST? ?ADAMS ASSOCIATES? ?COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 ? HAVE ONE? A? LITTLE? CUTE? LOOKS? AS? ?NEW POCKET? GUIDE? ? I? ?SEE ONE IN GOOGLE? SCANNED? ?FROM? 67? SO DO NOT KNOW THIS? NEEDS TO BE? OR? ? ALSO? A? EAI? POCKET? CALENDAR? APPOINTMENT? REMINDER? BUT? ? AS? NEW? NO? FASCINATING NOTES? ALAS.. ? ALSO A? 67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA? SHEET.? PURPLE? ? DITTO? ?REPRODUCED. ? ? ? From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 14:05:21 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 14:05:21 -0600 Subject: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 In-Reply-To: <167b89b163c-1ec3-1a3e@webjas-vad008.srv.aolmail.net> References: <167b89b163c-1ec3-1a3e@webjas-vad008.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 14:00 ED SHARPE via cctalk > How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL > INGEST ADAMS ASSOCIATES COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 > > HAVE ONE A LITTLE CUTE LOOKS AS NEW POCKET GUIDE I SEE ONE IN > GOOGLE SCANNED FROM 67 SO DO NOT KNOW THIS NEEDS TO BE OR? > > ALSO A EAI POCKET CALENDAR APPOINTMENT REMINDER BUT AS NEW NO > FASCINATING NOTES ALAS.. > > ALSO A 67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA SHEET. PURPLE DITTO REPRODUCED. > What does this even mean!? > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 14:17:29 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 14:17:29 -0600 Subject: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 In-Reply-To: References: <167b89b163c-1ec3-1a3e@webjas-vad008.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: did ed get hacked? On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 2:05 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 14:00 ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > > > > How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL > > INGEST ADAMS ASSOCIATES COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 > > > > HAVE ONE A LITTLE CUTE LOOKS AS NEW POCKET GUIDE I SEE ONE > IN > > GOOGLE SCANNED FROM 67 SO DO NOT KNOW THIS NEEDS TO BE OR? > > > > ALSO A EAI POCKET CALENDAR APPOINTMENT REMINDER BUT AS NEW NO > > FASCINATING NOTES ALAS.. > > > > ALSO A 67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA SHEET. PURPLE DITTO REPRODUCED. > > > > What does this even mean!? > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 16 14:19:38 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 12:19:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 In-Reply-To: <167b89b163c-1ec3-1a3e@webjas-vad008.srv.aolmail.net> References: <167b89b163c-1ec3-1a3e@webjas-vad008.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL INGEST?? ??ADAMS ASSOCIATES?? ??COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 > ?? > HAVE ONE?? A?? LITTLE?? CUTE?? LOOKS?? AS?? ??NEW POCKET?? GUIDE?? ?? I?? ??SEE ONE IN GOOGLE?? SCANNED?? ??FROM?? 67?? SO DO NOT KNOW THIS?? NEEDS TO BE?? OR? > ?? > ALSO?? A?? EAI?? POCKET?? CALENDAR?? APPOINTMENT?? REMINDER?? BUT?? ?? AS?? NEW?? NO?? FASCINATING NOTES?? ALAS.. > ?? > ALSO A?? 67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA?? SHEET.?? PURPLE?? ?? DITTO?? ??REPRODUCED. Could you rephrase your post? (as a query, or as a statement?) Do you have bad YELP reviews? Do you have YELP reviews? Does YELP review mailing list posts? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 16 14:22:55 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 12:22:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 In-Reply-To: References: <167b89b163c-1ec3-1a3e@webjas-vad008.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > did ed get hacked? Well, it's definitely his typing. Ed, if you are being held hostage, send a post without extra spaces/characters. > On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 2:05 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 14:00 ED SHARPE via cctalk > wrote: >> >>> >>> How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL >>> INGEST ADAMS ASSOCIATES COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 >>> >>> HAVE ONE A LITTLE CUTE LOOKS AS NEW POCKET GUIDE I SEE ONE >> IN >>> GOOGLE SCANNED FROM 67 SO DO NOT KNOW THIS NEEDS TO BE OR? >>> >>> ALSO A EAI POCKET CALENDAR APPOINTMENT REMINDER BUT AS NEW NO >>> FASCINATING NOTES ALAS.. >>> >>> ALSO A 67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA SHEET. PURPLE DITTO REPRODUCED. >>> >> >> What does this even mean!? From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Dec 16 14:38:09 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 14:38:09 -0600 Subject: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 In-Reply-To: References: <167b89b163c-1ec3-1a3e@webjas-vad008.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <5C16B7B1.9080303@pico-systems.com> On 12/16/2018 02:05 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 14:00 ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL >> INGEST ADAMS ASSOCIATES COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 >> >> HAVE ONE A LITTLE CUTE LOOKS AS NEW POCKET GUIDE I SEE ONE IN >> GOOGLE SCANNED FROM 67 SO DO NOT KNOW THIS NEEDS TO BE OR? >> >> ALSO A EAI POCKET CALENDAR APPOINTMENT REMINDER BUT AS NEW NO >> FASCINATING NOTES ALAS.. >> >> ALSO A 67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA SHEET. PURPLE DITTO REPRODUCED. >> > What does this even mean!? That he got hacked? Looks like maybe they took some file from his system and mailed it out, with a little of their own text mixed into the Subject: line? Jon Jon From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Dec 16 15:10:49 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:10:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 In-Reply-To: References: <167b89b163c-1ec3-1a3e@webjas-vad008.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 14:00 ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> >> How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL >> INGEST ADAMS ASSOCIATES COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 >> >> HAVE ONE A LITTLE CUTE LOOKS AS NEW POCKET GUIDE I SEE ONE IN >> GOOGLE SCANNED FROM 67 SO DO NOT KNOW THIS NEEDS TO BE OR? >> >> ALSO A EAI POCKET CALENDAR APPOINTMENT REMINDER BUT AS NEW NO >> FASCINATING NOTES ALAS.. >> >> ALSO A 67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA SHEET. PURPLE DITTO REPRODUCED. >> > > What does this even mean!? > Ed's having word salad for lunch. Again. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 16 15:41:00 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 16:41:00 -0500 Subject: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 In-Reply-To: <5C16B7B1.9080303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <167b8f716b0-1ec8-410@webjas-vaa115.srv.aolmail.net> disregard? I have no? idea? what happened? ? sorry? folks.... sometimes? i? go? to? cut and paste and? click and cut? things? wrong on a muscle in? fingers? twitches and? hammers? finger? down and ... ? ? spaces? ?added? ?to authenticate? ? ?this is? really? ?me? and? not? a? ? ?software? bot! ? In a message dated 12/16/2018 1:38:16 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 12/16/2018 02:05 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 14:00 ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL >> INGEST ADAMS ASSOCIATES COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 >> >> HAVE ONE A LITTLE CUTE LOOKS AS NEW POCKET GUIDE I SEE ONE IN >> GOOGLE SCANNED FROM 67 SO DO NOT KNOW THIS NEEDS TO BE OR? >> >> ALSO A EAI POCKET CALENDAR APPOINTMENT REMINDER BUT AS NEW NO >> FASCINATING NOTES ALAS.. >> >> ALSO A 67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA SHEET. PURPLE DITTO REPRODUCED. >> > What does this even mean!? That he got hacked? Looks like maybe they took some file from his system and mailed it out, with a little of their own text mixed into the Subject: line? Jon Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 15:42:27 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 16:42:27 -0500 Subject: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 In-Reply-To: References: <167b89b163c-1ec3-1a3e@webjas-vad008.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: > Ed's having word salad for lunch. Again. But the lunch was bad, so he wrote a bad review, but now regrets it. -- Will From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 16 15:43:30 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 16:43:30 -0500 Subject: ok but we did get some cool EAI stuff... sometimes I kist stuff as this in case there is similare interest or needs Message-ID: <167b8f95bc3-1ec2-42b@webjas-vab026.srv.aolmail.net> MATERIAL INGEST ADAMS ASSOCIATES COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 HAVE ONE A LITTLE CUTE LOOKS AS NEW POCKET GUIDE I SEE ONE IN ?GOOGLE SCANNED FROM 67 SO DO NOT KNOW THIS NEEDS TO BE OR? ?ALSO A EAI POCKET CALENDAR APPOINTMENT REMINDER BUT AS NEW NO ?FASCINATING NOTES ALAS.. ?ALSO A 67 EAI STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA SHEET. PURPLE DITTO REPRODUCED. From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 16 15:48:54 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 16:48:54 -0500 Subject: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <167b8fe52d5-1ec2-19e5@webjas-vaa014.srv.aolmail.net> wdonzelli at gmail.com?et al actually there are? some? days? I wish I could? cut? have the nerve? fibers in my? hands to destroy them.? Not a? ?good? time? ?but? some? days it is? what? it? is...? ?beats? having no hands at all I? suppose.? ?Ed# ? In a message dated 12/16/2018 2:42:51 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > Ed's having word salad for lunch. Again. But the lunch was bad, so he wrote a bad review, but now regrets it. -- Will From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 16 16:06:06 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 17:06:06 -0500 Subject: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 In-Reply-To: <167b8fe52d5-1ec2-19e5@webjas-vaa014.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <167b90e1168-1ec3-19d1@webjas-vac085.srv.aolmail.net> CORRECTION>>>? ?Should have? said? there are? some? days? I wish I could? cut? out HALF the nerve? fibers in my? hands to destroy them ? In a message dated 12/16/2018 2:49:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? wdonzelli at gmail.com?et al actually there are? some? days? I wish I could? cut? have the nerve? fibers in my? hands to destroy them.? Not a? ?good? time? ?but? some? days it is? what? it? is...? ?beats? having no hands at all I? suppose.? ?Ed# ? In a message dated 12/16/2018 2:42:51 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > Ed's having word salad for lunch. Again. But the lunch was bad, so he wrote a bad review, but now regrets it. -- Will From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 16 16:09:59 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 17:09:59 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?HUNTING_EXISTENCE_OF_NCR_304_COMPUTER_PCB=C2=A0?= =?UTF-8?Q?BOARD_PIX_IS_THERE_ONE_OF_THESE_EVEN_LEFT=3F?= Message-ID: <167b911a08b-1ec3-1a80@webjas-vac068.srv.aolmail.net> HUNTING EXISTENCE OF NCR 304 COMPUTER PCB?BOARD PIX IS THERE ONE OF THESE EVEN LEFT? From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 16 16:14:44 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 17:14:44 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?was...Re:_8-Update__NOW__?= =?UTF-8?Q?I=C2=A0_would=C2=A0_like_to=C2=A0_get_one?= =?UTF-8?Q?_of_the=C2=A0_=C2=A0little=C2=A0_boards=C2=A0_?= =?UTF-8?Q?with_the=C2=A0_pdp_8_on_a_micro?= =?UTF-8?Q?processor_that_is_a_little?= =?UTF-8?Q?=C2=A0_single_board=C2=A0_computer=C2=A0_?= =?UTF-8?Q?too...=C2=A0_for_the_museum=C2=A0_bu?= =?UTF-8?Q?t=C2=A0_also=C2=A0_to=C2=A0_play=C2=A0_with...?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <167b915fab6-1ec2-1a78@webjas-vac167.srv.aolmail.net> I? would? like to? get one of the? ?little? boards? with the? pdp 8 on a microprocessor that is a little? single board? computer? too...? for the museum? but? also? to? play? with... In a message dated 12/16/2018 12:38:35 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 12/15/18 11:36 PM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an ?8/e out of ?modern parts. Redoing the CPU in obtanium TTL would be desirable. ? ? From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 16 16:57:07 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 17:57:07 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_HUNTING_EXISTENCE_OF_NCR_304_COMPUTER_PC?= =?UTF-8?Q?B=C2=A0BOARD_PIX_IS_THERE_ONE_OF_THESE_EVEN_LEFT=3F?= In-Reply-To: <167b911a08b-1ec3-1a80@webjas-vac068.srv.aolmail.net> References: <167b911a08b-1ec3-1a80@webjas-vac068.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <167b93cc5d1-1ec2-1a10@webjas-vaa096.srv.aolmail.net> crickets?? ?does anyone? know what I am talking about?? ? Maybe this is? one of the great? ?unseen systems... In a message dated 12/16/2018 3:10:09 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? HUNTING EXISTENCE OF NCR 304 COMPUTER PCB?BOARD PIX IS THERE ONE OF THESE EVEN LEFT? From rtomek at ceti.pl Sun Dec 16 18:20:43 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 01:20:43 +0100 Subject: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963 In-Reply-To: <167b90e1168-1ec3-19d1@webjas-vac085.srv.aolmail.net> References: <167b8fe52d5-1ec2-19e5@webjas-vaa014.srv.aolmail.net> <167b90e1168-1ec3-19d1@webjas-vac085.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <20181217002043.GA21059@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 05:06:06PM -0500, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > CORRECTION>>>? ?Should have? said? there are? some? days? I wish I > could? cut? out HALF the nerve? fibers in my? hands to destroy them Sorry about that. However, there is a chance you (or your device) has been posessed by a, uhm, a ghost. Judging by goog search results, AOL has mail related security problem every even year and it is about time for "problem 2018". -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 16 18:30:13 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 19:30:13 -0500 Subject: THE GHOST IN ED'S COMPUTER In-Reply-To: <20181217002043.GA21059@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <167b9920533-1ec2-1a41@webjas-vab035.srv.aolmail.net> Hi - Tomasz? ?NO? ?not that? I? recreated what? happened when i was? going to send another? email but...? heh!? ?caught it in? time!? ?Seems sometimes? the? prior? cut? segment stays in the? ? paste buffer thing..? Yes,? ? I was? ?worried? ?for a? while? also.? ? ? In a message dated 12/16/2018 5:20:52 PM US Mountain Standard Time, rtomek at ceti.pl writes: ? On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 05:06:06PM -0500, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > CORRECTION>>>? ?Should have? said? there are? some? days? I wish I > could? cut? out HALF the nerve? fibers in my? hands to destroy them Sorry about that. However, there is a chance you (or your device) has been posessed by a, uhm, a ghost. Judging by goog search results, AOL has mail related security problem every even year and it is about time for "problem 2018". -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 16 21:59:38 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 19:59:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: <41dfbfb6-6bbb-67ee-15ab-7979024fec84@yahoo.de> References: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> <41dfbfb6-6bbb-67ee-15ab-7979024fec84@yahoo.de> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Norbert Kehrer via cctalk wrote: > I have not tested it, but I suppose, that also the PX-8 and PX-4 used the > protocol, > because the protocol specification defines the following device numbers: > - HX-20: 0x20 (probably also used for the HC-20) > - PX-8: 0x22 > - PX-4: 0x23 That is especially interesting. It is probable that the HX-20 worked with the TF20 on a file level load and save, but the PX-8 was likely to work on a sector level. The HC-20s that I had were Japanese machines brought to USA for some software develpment in Berkeley. HudsonSoft? The HX20 never caught on very well in USA. It had a few dedicated applications, such as CableTV configuration. There was no technical documentation available. I had a little bit of incomplete Japanese documentation. During the time that I had some machines, the technical manual and protocol specification were unavailable in USA. I don't remember the disk format for the TF20 external drives, and they were unavailable in USA. IIRC, the only sample disk that I had used a form of the Microsoft "Stand-Alone BASIC", much closer to the NEC variants than the Coco. (seek center directory, with short directory entries that included a starting cluster number, and a linked list Granule Allocation Table (similar to MS-DOS FAT, and early Mac disk format) DSDD, with 16 256 byte sectors per track (320K) The Epson Geneva PX-8 had an external 3.5" floppy available, and CP/M! However, the PX-8 3.5" had 40 cylinders, with 67.5 tpi, instead of the common 80 cylinder 135 tpi of other 3.5" disks. Those 40 cylinder 3.5" drives are quite rare. I don't know about the track width; for reading, a PC can simply look at every other track. And formatting a virgin disk and writing to it should work. But, there is a definite possibility that RE-writing a PX-8 disk would result in one that the PX-8 couldn't handle (EXACTLY the same problem as RE-writing a 40 track 5.25" disk with an 80 track 5.25" drive) With appropriate format handling software on the PC, it should be possible for a PC connected using your system to work with actual Epson diskettes, and emulate the Epson external drives. Thank you for creating this! Now, I wish that I had been able to keep the HC-20s! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 22:14:14 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 23:14:14 -0500 Subject: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: References: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> <41dfbfb6-6bbb-67ee-15ab-7979024fec84@yahoo.de> Message-ID: <633ad87b-d6d3-2d32-d089-be1c0e2f8003@gmail.com> On 12/16/2018 10:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Norbert Kehrer via cctalk wrote: >> I have not tested it, but I suppose, that also the PX-8 and PX-4 used >> the protocol, >> because the protocol specification defines the following device numbers: >> - HX-20: 0x20 (probably also used for the HC-20) >> - PX-8:? 0x22 >> - PX-4:? 0x23 > > > PX-8! > The Epson Geneva PX-8 had an external 3.5" floppy available, and CP/M! CP/M was in rom so your disk was a paltry 24k(bare PX8), 60K(multiwedge) or 120K (Ramdisk wedge) and of course both a 5.25 or 3.5 floppy.? The 3.5" drive could run on internal battery. > However, the PX-8 3.5" had 40 cylinders, with 67.5 tpi, instead of the > common 80 cylinder 135 tpi of other 3.5" disks. > Those 40 cylinder 3.5" drives are quite rare. > I don't know about the track width; for reading, a PC can simply look > at every other track.? And formatting a virgin disk and writing to it > should work.? But, there is a definite possibility that RE-writing a > PX-8 disk would result in one that the PX-8 couldn't handle (EXACTLY > the same problem as RE-writing a 40 track 5.25" disk with an 80 track > 5.25" drive) > Many of the drives have dead spots and need a manual push to start.? I have two like that.? I suspect the ceramic magnet lost its stuff over time.? When I have time the next project will be a Atmega2650 running a CF to via serial interface.? The drive table can be patched for a larger (up to 8mb) drive. > > With appropriate format handling software on the PC, it should be > possible for a PC connected using your system to work with actual > Epson diskettes, and emulate the Epson external drives. > There are several software packages on the net to do the fake of the disk via serial and manuals of the system to explain the format.? Likely that software could do the earlier HX20 (and friends) with minor tweaks. Allison From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Dec 16 22:39:17 2018 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 23:39:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: <633ad87b-d6d3-2d32-d089-be1c0e2f8003@gmail.com> References: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> <41dfbfb6-6bbb-67ee-15ab-7979024fec84@yahoo.de> <633ad87b-d6d3-2d32-d089-be1c0e2f8003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1428376235.37647.1545021557928@email.ionos.com> > On December 16, 2018 at 11:14 PM allison via cctalk wrote: > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Norbert Kehrer via cctalk wrote: > >> I have not tested it, but I suppose, that also the PX-8 and PX-4 used > >> the protocol, > >> because the protocol specification defines the following device numbers: > >> - HX-20: 0x20 (probably also used for the HC-20) > >> - PX-8:? 0x22 > >> - PX-4:? 0x23 > > > > > > > PX-8! > A subject dear to me. I still have the px-8 I bought new (borrowed the money from my sister) as a young man in 1984. Alas, I could never afford the PF-10 disk drive. > > However, the PX-8 3.5" had 40 cylinders, with 67.5 tpi, instead of the > > common 80 cylinder 135 tpi of other 3.5" disks. > > Those 40 cylinder 3.5" drives are quite rare. Somewhere in my searches I recall reading that the 3 1/2" drives used the same format as the 5 1/4" ones. Maybe 40 tracks of 16 256 byte sectors. Oddly, I believe that 2 tracks are "reserved for CP/M" even though it is in ROM and not stored on disk. > ceramic magnet lost its stuff over time.? When I have time the next > project will be a Atmega2650 running > a CF to via serial interface.? The drive table can be patched for a > larger (up to 8mb) drive. I've been planning something very similar for a while, but using an Arduino (ATMega 328) or bare AVR chip and probably a smaller/simpler flash chip. I din't know about the drive table. That's interesting. Would a new ROM have to be burned with the new table? Do you have an links to the info? > > > > With appropriate format handling software on the PC, it should be > > possible for a PC connected using your system to work with actual > > Epson diskettes, and emulate the Epson external drives. > > > There are several software packages on the net to do the fake of the > disk via serial and manuals of the system to > explain the format.? Likely that software could do the earlier HX20 (and > friends) with minor tweaks. Here is one I am familiar with that runs on Linux. Only does drives, AFAIK, no display. https://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/px4/vfloppy/ And if anyone is interested here are some more links: http://oldcomputer.info/8bit/hx20/index.htm#links Navigating through some of those links takes you to the protocol: https://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/hx20/epsp.html Note at the bottom of the page it says the PX-8 and CP/M only use four of the functions. This link has lots of HX-20 info. http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/hx20/doc/index.html The tms files near the bottom (ch 10-11?) describe the protocol and how it functions in detail. Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise." -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 16 22:56:02 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 20:56:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: <1428376235.37647.1545021557928@email.ionos.com> References: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> <41dfbfb6-6bbb-67ee-15ab-7979024fec84@yahoo.de> <633ad87b-d6d3-2d32-d089-be1c0e2f8003@gmail.com> <1428376235.37647.1545021557928@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: > On December 16, 2018 at 11:14 PM allison via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Norbert Kehrer via cctalk wrote: >>>> I have not tested it, but I suppose, that also the PX-8 and PX-4 used >>>> the protocol, >>>> because the protocol specification defines the following device numbers: >>>> - HX-20: 0x20 (probably also used for the HC-20) >>>> - PX-8:? 0x22 >>>> - PX-4:? 0x23 >>> >>> >>> >> PX-8! >> > A subject dear to me. I still have the px-8 I bought new (borrowed the money from my sister) as a young man in 1984. Alas, I could never afford the PF-10 disk drive. > > >>> However, the PX-8 3.5" had 40 cylinders, with 67.5 tpi, instead of the >>> common 80 cylinder 135 tpi of other 3.5" disks. >>> Those 40 cylinder 3.5" drives are quite rare. On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Somewhere in my searches I recall reading that the 3 1/2" drives used > the same format as the 5 1/4" ones. Maybe 40 tracks of 16 256 byte > sectors. Oddly, I believe that 2 tracks are "reserved for CP/M" even > though it is in ROM and not stored on disk. It was not uncommon for CP/M disks to have "reserved" or "system" tracks, even when the particular disk was not a bootable "system" disk. I don't remember for sure, and don't have convenient access to my materials, but 16 256 byte physical sectors makes sense. The drive manual http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/px8/doc/PF-10Manual.pdf SAYS 9 512 byte sectors, but that seems likely to be in error from a cut and paste boilerplate from a different machine, because the more specific information is all for "64 sectors", which means CP/M RECORDS or "logical sectors" of 128 bytes each. THAT would be consistent with either 8 512 byte PHYSICAL sectors, or 16 256 byte PHYSICAL sectors. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 23:43:32 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 23:43:32 -0600 Subject: Hayes Transet Manual and Software Message-ID: One of my few remaining Holy Grail items, I got a Hayes Transet 1000 this week. My three-part Hayes stack is now complete. I've scanned the manual and quick-ref card. The scan is not up to the quality of my usual work, as I tried a new technique using a DSLR instead of a scanner so I wouldn't have to take the manual apart. The results are good enough to read, but that's about it. I'll re-do it again someday with the proper tools. Here's the link: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Hayes I have two manuals for the config software (alas only the Mac version of the software itself), which I'll try to do soon. I'll image the Mac disk as well. If anyone has the PC version of the software, I'd love it have it. -j From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 21:07:54 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 20:07:54 -0700 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <95791d34-8677-a878-7632-86647e9694f3@gmail.com> References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> <5c15b54f.1c69fb81.f5e5d.2e48SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <95791d34-8677-a878-7632-86647e9694f3@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/16/2018 8:00 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > In the end, current generation CMOS ram is the easy out, battery is > small, cost is small,? and > produces much less of the heat that is killer to systems.?? The only > reason to do that is core > cost big if you can find it for your machine.? I can cost more if you > want to run an OS that > needs a fair amount of it.? AC as well as it can help heat the room and > also power as in > makes the meter spin. > > So much lathering and speculation about what and how.? When the point is > totally missed. > > Allison > What programs or operating sytems require non volatile core? Did DEC have any BOOTSTRAP programs in prom for the 8? A small prom and regular slow mos memory may be the solution. Ben. From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 21:00:49 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 22:00:49 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> <5c15b54f.1c69fb81.f5e5d.2e48SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <95791d34-8677-a878-7632-86647e9694f3@gmail.com> On 12/15/2018 09:32 PM, Charles Anthony via cctech wrote: > On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 6:15 PM Rod G8DGR via cctalk > wrote: > >> All very interesting.. 1201 alarm while I deal will all of the information >> Rod >> >> > 1202 coming up... > > I don't know specifically about the various memory types being bandied > about, but I do know that the destructive read behavior of core memory my > be required for some architectures; "load and clear" type instructions rely > on the suppressing the write-after-read cycle to make the instruction > atomic, allowing the implementation of data locking instructions. For some > architectures, it may be that any replacement memory would have to support > the suppression signal to work correctly. > > -- Charles That's all fairy land speculation and guessing.? The person that started this is working with a PDP-8E so the above does not apply.? the 8E and later had both DEC made ram and third parties did when 2102 were cheap enough about 78ish.??? Later it was battery backed up cmos.? For system with disk a rom based booter was enough as who cares if the ram held valid stuff.? As to realism, the cost of a core was high enough then if it broke or worse now if it breaks its out of sight.? Breakage back then was costly, not its possibly unobtainium. The for the most part with the covers on the only thing noted was binary blisters from the switches and the incessant loud fans.?? In the mean time the user was interacting with a TTY with its notable noises and if needing service a sometimes bad attitude.? The fact that CORE does a R-Rewrite or RMW cycle is both unseen without a scope and had no impact while running a file though PAL-III in all caps. In the end, current generation CMOS ram is the easy out, battery is small, cost is small,? and produces much less of the heat that is killer to systems.?? The only reason to do that is core cost big if you can find it for your machine.? I can cost more if you want to run an OS that needs a fair amount of it.? AC as well as it can help heat the room and also power as in makes the meter spin. So much lathering and speculation about what and how.? When the point is totally missed. Allison From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 16 21:30:29 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 22:30:29 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <167ba370cff-1ec0-1c54@webjas-vaa052.srv.aolmail.net> I put? focal in it...I leave? focal in it...? then I turn on the power? it talks focal to? a tty! ( for? grains? want? ?copy? of? focal? 11? for the 11/20? too...) ? But? definitely? want to? see focal on a? little omnibus 8! Just like that famous night in 1979...... Life? is? good? ? Ed# ? In a message dated 12/16/2018 8:08:01 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctech at classiccmp.org writes: ? What programs or operating sytems require non volatile core? Did DEC have any BOOTSTRAP programs in prom for the 8? A small prom and regular slow mos memory may be the solution. Ben. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Dec 16 21:49:53 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 03:49:53 +0000 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> <5c15b54f.1c69fb81.f5e5d.2e48SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <95791d34-8677-a878-7632-86647e9694f3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5B0550EE127A1662@rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: ben via cctech Sent: 17 December 2018 03:08 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. On 12/16/2018 8:00 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > In the end, current generation CMOS ram is the easy out, battery is > small, cost is small,? and > produces much less of the heat that is killer to systems.?? The only > reason to do that is core > cost big if you can find it for your machine.? I can cost more if you > want to run an OS that > needs a fair amount of it.? AC as well as it can help heat the room and > also power as in > makes the meter spin. > > So much lathering and speculation about what and how.? When the point is > totally missed. > > Allison > What programs or operating sytems require non volatile core? Did DEC have any BOOTSTRAP programs in prom for the 8? A small prom and regular slow mos memory may be the solution. Ben. I?m trying to make a look and feel reproduction PDP-8/e. So the memory characteristics need to be as close as possible. An original ( and I do have one) and the copy when placed side by side should run in sync. When executing he same code ? What code I couldn?t care. Rod From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 22:04:32 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 23:04:32 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> <5c15b54f.1c69fb81.f5e5d.2e48SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <95791d34-8677-a878-7632-86647e9694f3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <246d4e4b-6266-488d-d9ca-29cb984b2042@gmail.com> On 12/16/2018 10:07 PM, ben via cctech wrote: > On 12/16/2018 8:00 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > >> In the end, current generation CMOS ram is the easy out, battery is >> small, cost is small,? and >> produces much less of the heat that is killer to systems.?? The only >> reason to do that is core >> cost big if you can find it for your machine.? I can cost more if you >> want to run an OS that >> needs a fair amount of it.? AC as well as it can help heat the room and >> also power as in >> makes the meter spin. >> >> So much lathering and speculation about what and how.? When the point is >> totally missed. >> >> Allison >> > > What programs or operating sytems require non volatile core? > Did DEC have any BOOTSTRAP programs in prom for the 8? > A small prom and regular slow mos memory may be the solution. > Ben. > None. Non volitility was handy if you wanted to power down go home and restart where you were the next day but at the OS level that was never a consideration. CMOS is MOS!? Current generation parts are cheap and easy to use.? Its not a speed issue as core was so slow, PDP-8 the fastest core was 1.5uS and even current cmos (5101) was under 1uS. No advanatage for slow memory as everything from 1978 on was likely much faster than an 8e needed anyway.? The easy way if obvious use cmos as its cheap and common as house flies.? Leave out the small lithium cell.? The problem is PROM cards for PDP-8 omnibus was not common at at then then time cheap and used parts likely to be unobtainium now.? The machines that had it used an abbreviated front panel? maybe 12 sense switches for the OSR instruction and a boot/start switch.? Not many made and FS contract required the full panel to do checkout and fix.? So cost wise the boot card was not common.? Call it an artifact of systems then. The loader for most stuff was small anyway, toggle it in, usually rim or bin loaders.? Run the reader and that loaded whatever. Typical small non disk systems were CPU, TTY and maybe a high speed reader.? Next level added TU56 or maybe RX01 floppy, from there a DF32 disk and maybe a RK05 or two.? The user interacted with them the box ala the CPU was a small part of that interaction/experience. Allison From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 22:21:03 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 23:21:03 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5C156957.8080503@pico-systems.com> References: <068601d494b5$567c11b0$03743510$@liftoff.at> <5C156957.8080503@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <86834257-43aa-6793-1479-2a31719338ba@gmail.com> On 12/15/2018 03:51 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 12/15/2018 02:45 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >> Serial flash has an endurance between 10K-100K writes per cell so I >> think >> that would break down quickly. Wear-leveling on a serial device would be >> very slow... >> >> > If you intend to use it as main core memory on an old CPU, it will > perform VERY poorly, as these memories need to erase a page at a time, > and the erase takes milliseconds.? So, writing ONE SINGLE word at a > time would invoke an erase cycle each time, slowing it to 1/1000 or > worse the speed of the original core memory.? Also, most old CPUs have > the memory timing built into the CPU, and can't handle a memory that > says "wait". > > Jon The only place where Flash or similar tech fits is applied to the mass storage problem such as replicating a RF/DF32 multihead disk. The cycle life is a limiting factor for things like swapping drums/disks but for something that's read mostly its ok. Core is RAM, and not serial anyway. Allison From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Dec 16 22:50:15 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 20:50:15 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <86834257-43aa-6793-1479-2a31719338ba@gmail.com> References: <068601d494b5$567c11b0$03743510$@liftoff.at> <5C156957.8080503@pico-systems.com> <86834257-43aa-6793-1479-2a31719338ba@gmail.com> Message-ID: <93F26F0F-716E-45CF-8924-3C2C838A7D42@shiresoft.com> > On Dec 16, 2018, at 8:21 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > > On 12/15/2018 03:51 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: >> On 12/15/2018 02:45 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >>> Serial flash has an endurance between 10K-100K writes per cell so I >>> think >>> that would break down quickly. Wear-leveling on a serial device would be >>> very slow... >>> >>> >> If you intend to use it as main core memory on an old CPU, it will >> perform VERY poorly, as these memories need to erase a page at a time, >> and the erase takes milliseconds. So, writing ONE SINGLE word at a >> time would invoke an erase cycle each time, slowing it to 1/1000 or >> worse the speed of the original core memory. Also, most old CPUs have >> the memory timing built into the CPU, and can't handle a memory that >> says "wait". >> >> Jon > The only place where Flash or similar tech fits is applied to the mass > storage problem such as replicating > a RF/DF32 multihead disk. > > The cycle life is a limiting factor for things like swapping drums/disks > but for something that's > read mostly its ok. Frankly even in those applications (RF11/DF32) I?d use MRAM (available in 2Mx8) rather than FLASH because (a) it?s byte addressable (b) it has unlimited write endurance (c) it looks like SRAM so there?s no erase cycle (or blocks) to deal with so it makes the hardware easier (e.g. it should be possible to implement one of those controllers just with logic and not require a microprocessor). BTW, that?s what I use for the emulators that I?m working on (when I have time?in short supply at the moment). I also use them even when I do use FLASH as I can use it as a buffer/cache to help absorb some of the write/overwrite cycles and to be able to handle (non-volatile) full FLASH block operations and for wear leveling (tracking and block remapping). That way I don?t have to deal with a PMIC and battery. MRAMs also have a >20 year data retention as well (something you don?t have with a battery?if the battery dies, you loose everything). TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 17 00:40:59 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 22:40:59 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <3CDD3136-6FE9-484E-B216-A7FDD9AD92B8@comcast.net> References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <3CDD3136-6FE9-484E-B216-A7FDD9AD92B8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0b353014-57e8-c709-f523-26927ee44db6@sydex.com> On 12/16/18 11:21 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > If you simply want non-volatile memory, the obvious answer is SRAM with battery backup and a small FPGA to do the interfacing. I proposed nvRAM - CMOS SRAM backed by cell-for-cell flash. Loads SRAM from flash on power-up and stores into flash at power-down. All that's needed is a capacitor to extend the power-down cycle a bit. Very fast, available in 8 to 32-bit wide architectures, up to 16Mbit per package. Claims to be guaranteed for 1M power cycles and doesn't require a battery. --Chuck From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Mon Dec 17 02:48:19 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:48:19 +0100 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B5AEFED-255A-46A1-B91A-A12EC325EEF7@vmssoftware.com> On 12/9/18, 10:40 PM, "cctech on behalf of Mattis Lind via cctech" wrote: Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? I know what the software on those disks is, because I have these floppies too (and the system they're for). These are diagnostics for a 24-bit Honeywell 4500 process computer (a successor to the GE PAC 4000 system; some pictures on my website: https://vaxbarn.com/index.php/other-bits/654-honeywell-4500). I haven't imaged the ones I have yet, but I will get around to it eventually. Mine are CDC branded floppies as well, and the diskette drive that came with the 4500 was a Honeywell-labeled CDC drive. Camiel From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Mon Dec 17 02:48:19 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:48:19 +0100 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B5AEFED-255A-46A1-B91A-A12EC325EEF7@vmssoftware.com> On 12/9/18, 10:40 PM, "cctech on behalf of Mattis Lind via cctech" wrote: Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? I know what the software on those disks is, because I have these floppies too (and the system they're for). These are diagnostics for a 24-bit Honeywell 4500 process computer (a successor to the GE PAC 4000 system; some pictures on my website: https://vaxbarn.com/index.php/other-bits/654-honeywell-4500). I haven't imaged the ones I have yet, but I will get around to it eventually. Mine are CDC branded floppies as well, and the diskette drive that came with the 4500 was a Honeywell-labeled CDC drive. Camiel From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 03:31:55 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:31:55 -0500 Subject: Hayes Transet Manual and Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <028e01d495eb$59f26ce0$0dd746a0$@gmail.com> >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T via cctalk >Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 12:44 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Hayes Transet Manual and Software > >One of my few remaining Holy Grail items, I got a Hayes Transet 1000 >this week. My three-part Hayes stack is now complete. > >... > >-j Excellent! In your Hayes explorations have you come across any technical documentation for the Hayes Micromodem-100, the successor to the 80-103A? All that I've been able to uncover is a marketing brochure. Would like to uncover more ... Thank you, paul From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 08:16:57 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:16:57 -0500 Subject: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: References: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> <41dfbfb6-6bbb-67ee-15ab-7979024fec84@yahoo.de> <633ad87b-d6d3-2d32-d089-be1c0e2f8003@gmail.com> <1428376235.37647.1545021557928@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <9aef6955-d1e0-f7d2-db7d-779032255349@gmail.com> On 12/16/2018 11:56 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On December 16, 2018 at 11:14 PM allison via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Norbert Kehrer via cctalk wrote: >>>>> I have not tested it, but I suppose, that also the PX-8 and PX-4 used >>>>> the protocol, >>>>> because the protocol specification defines the following device >>>>> numbers: >>>>> - HX-20: 0x20 (probably also used for the HC-20) >>>>> - PX-8:? 0x22 >>>>> - PX-4:? 0x23 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> PX-8! >>> >> A subject dear to me.? I still have the px-8 I bought new (borrowed >> the money from my sister) as a young man in 1984.? Alas, I could >> never afford the PF-10 disk drive. >> I've had one for many decades and 2 more for well, now its two decades. Handy little critter and they do see use. >> >>>> However, the PX-8 3.5" had 40 cylinders, with 67.5 tpi, instead of the >>>> common 80 cylinder 135 tpi of other 3.5" disks. >>>> Those 40 cylinder 3.5" drives are quite rare. > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> Somewhere in my searches I recall reading that the 3 1/2" drives used >> the same format as the 5 1/4" ones.? Maybe 40 tracks of 16 256 byte >> sectors.? Oddly, I believe that 2 tracks are "reserved for CP/M" even >> though it is in ROM and not stored on disk. > > It was not uncommon for CP/M disks to have "reserved" or "system" > tracks, even when the particular disk was not a bootable "system" disk. > Standard SSSD 8" that is the case the fist two tracks are for "system" and the system is loaded from those. Most other do a variation depending on format and space.? CP/M ( the modules CCP, BDOS, BIOS) fits in about 8k so that defines the size of system tracks.? CP/M revolves around logical sectors of 128 bytes so anything larger 2556/512/1k requires blocking and deblocking in the bios. > I don't remember for sure, and don't have convenient access to my > materials, but 16 256 byte physical sectors makes sense. > Yes, it would be enough.? Save for the PX8 has CP/M loaded into ROM so the system tracks are largely wasted. I believe there is some drive and system level configuration information there but we are talking less than a sector or two. > The drive manual > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/px8/doc/PF-10Manual.pdf > SAYS 9 512 byte sectors, but that seems likely to be in error from a > cut and paste boilerplate from a different machine, because the more > specific information is all for "64 sectors", which means CP/M RECORDS > or "logical sectors" of 128 bytes each.? THAT would be consistent with > either 8 512 byte PHYSICAL sectors, or 16 256 byte PHYSICAL sectors. > It seems that way as it matches the PF-20 5.25" drive.? However the format on the drive also seems consistent at 9x512. Its not uncommon to use the whole system track or two even if it has "excess" space. Often the first sector contains the full disk book rather than a minimal 1 sector boot.? There is a lot of latitude and mostly why copy format programs such as yours existed due to same drive and media and many many different formats. I've gotten away from rotating media on a few of my CP/M systems and they go to the edge of what CP/M permits as in EPROM loaded, ROMdisks, RAMdisks and CF. Allison From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 08:23:07 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:23:07 -0500 Subject: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: <1428376235.37647.1545021557928@email.ionos.com> References: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> <41dfbfb6-6bbb-67ee-15ab-7979024fec84@yahoo.de> <633ad87b-d6d3-2d32-d089-be1c0e2f8003@gmail.com> <1428376235.37647.1545021557928@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <16a2df35-b639-414d-886b-dc80ff99975a@gmail.com> On 12/16/2018 11:39 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On December 16, 2018 at 11:14 PM allison via cctalk wrote: >>> On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Norbert Kehrer via cctalk wrote: >>>> I have not tested it, but I suppose, that also the PX-8 and PX-4 used >>>> the protocol, >>>> because the protocol specification defines the following device numbers: >>>> - HX-20: 0x20 (probably also used for the HC-20) >>>> - PX-8:? 0x22 >>>> - PX-4:? 0x23 >>> >>> >> PX-8! >> > A subject dear to me. I still have the px-8 I bought new (borrowed the money from my sister) as a young man in 1984. Alas, I could never afford the PF-10 disk drive. > > >>> However, the PX-8 3.5" had 40 cylinders, with 67.5 tpi, instead of the >>> common 80 cylinder 135 tpi of other 3.5" disks. >>> Those 40 cylinder 3.5" drives are quite rare. > Somewhere in my searches I recall reading that the 3 1/2" drives used the same format as the 5 1/4" ones. Maybe 40 tracks of 16 256 byte sectors. Oddly, I believe that 2 tracks are "reserved for CP/M" even though it is in ROM and not stored on disk. > > >> ceramic magnet lost its stuff over time.? When I have time the next >> project will be a Atmega2650 running >> a CF to via serial interface.? The drive table can be patched for a >> larger (up to 8mb) drive. > I've been planning something very similar for a while, but using an Arduino (ATMega 328) or bare AVR chip and probably a smaller/simpler flash chip. I din't know about the drive table. That's interesting. Would a new ROM have to be burned with the new table? Do you have an links to the info? The system in the base PX-8 has a system area for user patches. the drive table is part of the BIOS and there are provisions for intercepting the calls to there and patching in changes or extensions.? Its detailed in the manuals. >>> With appropriate format handling software on the PC, it should be >>> possible for a PC connected using your system to work with actual >>> Epson diskettes, and emulate the Epson external drives. >>> >> There are several software packages on the net to do the fake of the >> disk via serial and manuals of the system to >> explain the format.? Likely that software could do the earlier HX20 (and >> friends) with minor tweaks. > Here is one I am familiar with that runs on Linux. Only does drives, AFAIK, no display. > https://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/px4/vfloppy/ Thats true, but the IO on the PX-8 allows for redirection to the serial port for console and even keyboard. I've many times used it with my VT320 to save my poor eyes. > And if anyone is interested here are some more links: > http://oldcomputer.info/8bit/hx20/index.htm#links > Navigating through some of those links takes you to the protocol: > https://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/hx20/epsp.html > Note at the bottom of the page it says the PX-8 and CP/M only use four of the functions. > This link has lots of HX-20 info. > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/hx20/doc/index.html > The tms files near the bottom (ch 10-11?) describe the protocol and how it functions in detail. > > Will > ?Indeed.? its all there. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 17 08:30:41 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:30:41 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> <5c15b54f.1c69fb81.f5e5d.2e48SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <95791d34-8677-a878-7632-86647e9694f3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <042F6C8F-45C9-497E-9FE7-899F9209E1D2@comcast.net> > On Dec 16, 2018, at 10:07 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/16/2018 8:00 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > >> In the end, current generation CMOS ram is the easy out, battery is >> small, cost is small, and >> produces much less of the heat that is killer to systems. The only >> reason to do that is core >> cost big if you can find it for your machine. I can cost more if you >> want to run an OS that >> needs a fair amount of it. AC as well as it can help heat the room and >> also power as in >> makes the meter spin. >> So much lathering and speculation about what and how. When the point is >> totally missed. >> Allison > > What programs or operating sytems require non volatile core? > Did DEC have any BOOTSTRAP programs in prom for the 8? > A small prom and regular slow mos memory may be the solution. > Ben. Before boot ROMs, it was standard practice to toggle the boot loader into core where it would be available indefinitely, including across power cycles. You can see this in the PDP-8, and it was also documented in the early days of the PDP-11 (though in 1973 I didn't have to do this, we had a 16-word diode matrix boot ROM). RSTS-11 V4 had optional power fail handling, which would allow it to continue running after a power cycle. Not by rebooting as later versions did, but by continuing from where it left off. It would have to reinitialize the I/O devices since I/O registers are volatile, but the OS in memory would be intact and logged in user sessions would be preserved. I actually saw that work once, pretty neat. For all this, the only necessary memory property is simply that the contents was preserved across power cycles. None of the other details of core memory are important. For that matter, core memory details such as destructive read weren't visible to the CPU; the read/restore cycle was handled inside the core memory logic. That's typical; one exception I know of is the CDC 6000 series peripheral processor, which I mentioned before: there the restore cycle is part of the main execution pipeline. That's why readstart (system reboot) drops a zero in memory, it disrupts that read/restore cycle. paul From chrise at pobox.com Mon Dec 17 08:50:46 2018 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 08:50:46 -0600 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <0b353014-57e8-c709-f523-26927ee44db6@sydex.com> References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <3CDD3136-6FE9-484E-B216-A7FDD9AD92B8@comcast.net> <0b353014-57e8-c709-f523-26927ee44db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20181217145046.GB475@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (12/16/2018 at 10:40PM -0800), Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/16/18 11:21 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > If you simply want non-volatile memory, the obvious answer is SRAM with battery backup and a small FPGA to do the interfacing. > > I proposed nvRAM - CMOS SRAM backed by cell-for-cell flash. Loads SRAM > from flash on power-up and stores into flash at power-down. All that's > needed is a capacitor to extend the power-down cycle a bit. > > Very fast, available in 8 to 32-bit wide architectures, up to 16Mbit per > package. > > Claims to be guaranteed for 1M power cycles and doesn't require a battery. These are pretty neat. Took me a bit to find an example. They like to call it "NvSRAM", http://www.cypress.com/search/psg/1259#/?_facetShow=ss_ppart_family,ss_pinterface,fs_pdensity_kb_,ss_porganization_x_x_y_,ss_ppackage,ss_pfrequency_mhz_,fs_pspeed_ns_,ss_ptemp_classification,fs_pmin_operating_temp_c_,fs_pmax_operating_temp_c_,fs_pmin_operating_voltage_v_,fs_pmax_operating_voltage_v_,fs_pmin_operating_vccq_v_,fs_pmax_operating_vccq_v_,ss_ptape_reel,ss_pautomotive_qualified,fs_part_price&ss_pinterface=Parallel&fs_pmin_operating_voltage_v_=4.5&fs_pmin_operating_voltage_v_=4.5 which is a typical 32K x 8, 5V device. The "flash" subsystem is something they call SONOS / QuantumTrap technology. Takes 8mS to STORE the SRAM to the backing store at power down and 20mS to RECALL it at power up. The storage cap is typically 68uF so nothing monster. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 17 10:12:31 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 08:12:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hayes Transet Manual and Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > One of my few remaining Holy Grail items, I got a Hayes Transet 1000 > this week. My three-part Hayes stack is now complete. > > I've scanned the manual and quick-ref card. The scan is not up to the > quality of my usual work, as I tried a new technique using a DSLR > instead of a scanner so I wouldn't have to take the manual apart. The > results are good enough to read, but that's about it. I'll re-do it > again someday with the proper tools. Here's the link: > Jason, you can send it my direction for scanning if you like. I built a book scanner a while back to handle all the Crescent Software manuals I have. Here's a fully processed example: http://annex.retroarchive.org/crescent/PDQ%20Comm.pdf - I did that one this morning. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 17 09:38:28 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 10:38:28 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <5B0550EE127A1662@rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> References: <5c14ccaa.1c69fb81.79f25.865aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000601d4945f$b4858440$1d908cc0$@gmail.com> <5c15b54f.1c69fb81.f5e5d.2e48SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <95791d34-8677-a878-7632-86647e9694f3@gmail.com> <5B0550EE127A1662@rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: > On Dec 16, 2018, at 10:49 PM, Rod G8DGR via cctech wrote: > > > I?m trying to make a look and feel reproduction PDP-8/e. > So the memory characteristics need to be as close as possible. > > An original ( and I do have one) and the copy when placed side by side should run in sync. > When executing he same code ? What code I couldn?t care. > > Rod All you need for that to be true is to use the same bus timing as the original. What happens behind the scenes is unimportant. At LCM while restoring their CDC 6500 they built replacement memory modules, which actually mimic not just core memory cycle timing but also core memory waveforms -- which took some fiddling with pulse transformers. But behind the interface logic there's simple modern memory, probably SRAM, I forgot. paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 17 11:51:10 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:51:10 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <0b353014-57e8-c709-f523-26927ee44db6@sydex.com> References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <3CDD3136-6FE9-484E-B216-A7FDD9AD92B8@comcast.net> <0b353014-57e8-c709-f523-26927ee44db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 16, 2018, at 10:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/16/18 11:21 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> If you simply want non-volatile memory, the obvious answer is SRAM with battery backup and a small FPGA to do the interfacing. > > I proposed nvRAM - CMOS SRAM backed by cell-for-cell flash. Loads SRAM > from flash on power-up and stores into flash at power-down. All that's > needed is a capacitor to extend the power-down cycle a bit. > > Very fast, available in 8 to 32-bit wide architectures, up to 16Mbit per > package. > > Claims to be guaranteed for 1M power cycles and doesn't require a battery. Except it is *much* more expensive than MRAM. 32x8 NVSRAM is $18.50 in qty 1 from Digikey. A 64Kx16 MRAM is $11.84 in qty 1 from Digikey. MRAM requires no additional circuitry so that also reduces the overall cost (and has unlimited write endurance). If it sounds like I?m harping on MRAM, maybe I am. I?ve looked at the various technologies in detail (what?s available, cost, interfacing, etc, etc) for years and for anything that requires non-volatility, MRAM wins until you get into seriously large sizes at which point you need to go to FLASH for economics. TTFN - Guy From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 17 12:09:30 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 13:09:30 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <3CDD3136-6FE9-484E-B216-A7FDD9AD92B8@comcast.net> <0b353014-57e8-c709-f523-26927ee44db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8573A5BB-FACC-4C27-B19F-06183D50E80C@comcast.net> > On Dec 17, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Dec 16, 2018, at 10:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 12/16/18 11:21 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> If you simply want non-volatile memory, the obvious answer is SRAM with battery backup and a small FPGA to do the interfacing. >> >> I proposed nvRAM - CMOS SRAM backed by cell-for-cell flash. Loads SRAM >> from flash on power-up and stores into flash at power-down. All that's >> needed is a capacitor to extend the power-down cycle a bit. >> >> Very fast, available in 8 to 32-bit wide architectures, up to 16Mbit per >> package. >> >> Claims to be guaranteed for 1M power cycles and doesn't require a battery. > > Except it is *much* more expensive than MRAM. 32x8 NVSRAM is $18.50 in qty 1 from Digikey. > A 64Kx16 MRAM is $11.84 in qty 1 from Digikey. MRAM requires no additional circuitry so that > also reduces the overall cost (and has unlimited write endurance). > > If it sounds like I?m harping on MRAM, maybe I am. I?ve looked at the various technologies in > detail (what?s available, cost, interfacing, etc, etc) for years and for anything that requires > non-volatility, MRAM wins until you get into seriously large sizes at which point you need to > go to FLASH for economics. I'll go along with that. I worked on a storage product that needed non-volatile memory in modest sizes for tracking transaction states. The first product used FRAM for that, the second used SRAM backed by a small battery ("coin cell") and the third used MRAM. All worked fine. FRAM supposedly has endurance limits but they are high enough they weren't a concern. The main issue was the size limits, at least at the time (2003-ish). For simplicity, battery backed SRAM should be just as good as SRAM. In any case, you presumably will need a CPLD or small FPGA for the interface protocol conversion. paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 12:13:47 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 12:13:47 -0600 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <3CDD3136-6FE9-484E-B216-A7FDD9AD92B8@comcast.net> <0b353014-57e8-c709-f523-26927ee44db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: I've seen a lot of talk about memory technologies, but as far as I can see, no one has offered any complete solutions. One already exists, thanks to the efforts of Steve Lafferty, Vince Slyngstad, and others. http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/32KOmnibus/32KOmnibus.php Yes, it uses a battery. FPGAs and CPLDs are not needed (though a CPLD could reduce all of the logic and drivers to a single chip, with the ATF1508). Numerous Omnibus PDP-8 owners have these cards, and I swear by them in my machines. I'd much rather keep a hefty load off of the power supply and free up 11 card slots, especially in my 8/M. Maybe with enough interest, Vince would consider doing another run of boards. Thanks, Kyle From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 17 12:52:36 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 13:52:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. Message-ID: <20181217185236.0299A18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > For that matter, core memory details such as destructive read weren't > visible to the CPU Umm, not quite. If you'd said 'core memory details such as destructive read weren't visible to the _program_', you'd have been 100% correct. But as I suspect you know, just overlooked, most (all?) of the -11 CPU's do use 'read-modify-write' cycles on the bus (DATIP in UNIBUS terms, DATIO in QBUS) where possible precisely for the benefit of core memory with its destructive readout. (And there's some hair for interlocking the multiple CPU's on the -11/74 which I don't recall off the top of my head.) And I have a vague memory of something similar on other early DEC machines; probably some -8 models. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 17 12:58:24 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 13:58:24 -0500 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <20181217185236.0299A18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181217185236.0299A18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <824232F1-95BF-4491-8E69-107BAFFBB4E9@comcast.net> > On Dec 17, 2018, at 1:52 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> For that matter, core memory details such as destructive read weren't >> visible to the CPU > > Umm, not quite. If you'd said 'core memory details such as destructive read > weren't visible to the _program_', you'd have been 100% correct. > > But as I suspect you know, just overlooked, most (all?) of the -11 CPU's do > use 'read-modify-write' cycles on the bus (DATIP in UNIBUS terms, DATIO in > QBUS) where possible precisely for the benefit of core memory with its > destructive readout. (And there's some hair for interlocking the multiple > CPU's on the -11/74 which I don't recall off the top of my head.) No, that doesn't invalidate what I said. DATAIP/DATAO on the Unibus doesn't depend on the destructive read property. It works just fine with DEC semiconductor memory. It is perfectly valid to implement DATAIP as if it were DATAI, so that transaction simply becomes a read followed by a write. The reason it existed is that it allows core memory to optimize the timing, by running a "half cycle", omitting the restore part. But the DATAO supplies the new content of the word, and so long as the memory does that write you're all set. If PDP-11s ever did a DATAIP without a DATAO, you'd be able to tell the difference between core and semiconductor memory by reading the location afterwards and looking for non-zero. But conforming Unibus masters don't do that. paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 17 13:00:33 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:00:33 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: <20181217185236.0299A18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181217185236.0299A18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Dec 17, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> For that matter, core memory details such as destructive read weren't >> visible to the CPU > > Umm, not quite. If you'd said 'core memory details such as destructive read > weren't visible to the _program_', you'd have been 100% correct. > > But as I suspect you know, just overlooked, most (all?) of the -11 CPU's do > use 'read-modify-write' cycles on the bus (DATIP in UNIBUS terms, DATIO in > QBUS) where possible precisely for the benefit of core memory with its > destructive readout. (And there's some hair for interlocking the multiple > CPU's on the -11/74 which I don't recall off the top of my head.) > > And I have a vague memory of something similar on other early DEC machines; > probably some -8 models. But it does *no* harm if the underlying memory does *not* have a destructive read-out. Otherwise all of those (even DEC branded) MOS memory boards wouldn?t work. ;-) The DATIP and friends were an optimization implemented in the bus protocol to allow for it to take advantage of the behavior of core. However, nothing breaks if the memory doesn?t implement a destructive read-out. TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 17 14:29:51 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 12:29:51 -0800 Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. In-Reply-To: References: <5BC47A8705700310@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <3CDD3136-6FE9-484E-B216-A7FDD9AD92B8@comcast.net> <0b353014-57e8-c709-f523-26927ee44db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/17/18 9:51 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > Except it is *much* more expensive than MRAM. 32x8 NVSRAM is $18.50 in qty 1 from Digikey. > A 64Kx16 MRAM is $11.84 in qty 1 from Digikey. MRAM requires no additional circuitry so that > also reduces the overall cost (and has unlimited write endurance). nvSRAM is sole-sourced technology, so there's a premium. The crazy thing is that I was using the Xicor NOVRAM in the late 70s-early 80s. I still have a parts drawer full of X2444 8-pin DIPs from about that time. The technology appears to be roughly the same. Xicor got gobbled up by Intersil V2; Intersil V1 got gobbled up by Harris and then spun off again as Intersil V2 and then gobbled up by Renesas. You really need a program to tell the players apart. FWIW, there seems to be increasing interest in NVDIMMs: https://www.electronicdesign.com/industrial-automation/why-are-nvdimms-suddenly-hot I have no doubt that by the time they're wiping the drool from my face and wheeling me in front of the TeeVee to pass the time, that engineers will be discussing their favorite 20 psec. 8 exabyte non-volatile RAM chips... --Chuck From sales at elecplus.com Mon Dec 17 14:50:55 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 14:50:55 -0600 Subject: IF you need these old vintage parts, PLEASE grab them before the keyboard keids do! Message-ID: <040c01d4964a$353885b0$9fa99110$@com> https://www.elecshopper.com/vintage-computers.html I really would rather these go to someone who needs them to complete a system than to the destroyers of keyboards. I am trying to get more of the vintage stuff listed. If you want to see items as they are listed online, please turn on your RSS feeds. https://www.elecshopper.com/rss/ Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From tingox at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 15:12:55 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 22:12:55 +0100 Subject: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: FWIW, the easiest way to find out if somebody has made (or has tried to make) replacement parts for anything that can be 3D-printed is to go to thingiverse.com with your web browser. And then search for whatever thing you need (search terms / words are a separate subject, try as wide or as many as have time for. When you find a part, look at pictures, comments, makes and so on to try to figure out if this is a working part or just something somebody has mad a 3D model of, and never tested. Some relevant examples: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853 PDP-8 Panel Switch Toggle https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:386762 DEC RL-02 Spindle Ground Brush https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2454690 PDP Stand - Mount HTH On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 10:35 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 12/15/18 11:36 PM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > > > However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an 8/e out of modern parts. > > Redoing the CPU in obtanium TTL would be desirable. > > -- mvh Torfinn From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Dec 17 15:26:26 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 13:26:26 -0800 Subject: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> Are the files ?platform independent?? I know very little about 3D printing, but have been tempted to get a printer for a while now. Though I?m worried about what my kids wanting to use it. :-) Zane On Dec 17, 2018, at 1:12 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > > > FWIW, the easiest way to find out if somebody has made (or has tried > to make) replacement parts for anything that can be 3D-printed is to > go to thingiverse.com with your web browser. > And then search for whatever thing you need (search terms / words are > a separate subject, try as wide or as many as have time for. > When you find a part, look at pictures, comments, makes and so on to > try to figure out if this is a working part or just something somebody > has mad a 3D model of, and never tested. > Some relevant examples: > https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853 PDP-8 Panel Switch Toggle > https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:386762 DEC RL-02 Spindle Ground Brush > https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2454690 PDP Stand - Mount > > HTH > On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 10:35 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> >> >> >> On 12/15/18 11:36 PM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: >> >>> However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an 8/e out of modern parts. >> >> Redoing the CPU in obtanium TTL would be desirable. >> >> > > > -- > mvh > Torfinn From cube1 at charter.net Mon Dec 17 15:31:01 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:31:01 -0600 Subject: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> Typically the files on Thingiverse are .STL format, which is portable 3D model. One feeds it into a slicer program (there are several to choose from) to produce GCode that uses the specifications of one's particular printer so that the right GCode gets spit out. On 12/17/2018 3:26 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Are the files ?platform independent?? I know very little about 3D printing, but have been tempted to get a printer for a while now. Though I?m worried about what my kids wanting to use it. :-) > > Zane > > > > > On Dec 17, 2018, at 1:12 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> FWIW, the easiest way to find out if somebody has made (or has tried >> to make) replacement parts for anything that can be 3D-printed is to >> go to thingiverse.com with your web browser. >> And then search for whatever thing you need (search terms / words are >> a separate subject, try as wide or as many as have time for. >> When you find a part, look at pictures, comments, makes and so on to >> try to figure out if this is a working part or just something somebody >> has mad a 3D model of, and never tested. >> Some relevant examples: >> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853 PDP-8 Panel Switch Toggle >> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:386762 DEC RL-02 Spindle Ground Brush >> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2454690 PDP Stand - Mount >> >> HTH >> On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 10:35 PM Al Kossow via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/15/18 11:36 PM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an 8/e out of modern parts. >>> >>> Redoing the CPU in obtanium TTL would be desirable. >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> mvh >> Torfinn > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 17 15:48:06 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 13:48:06 -0800 Subject: CDC floppy disks on Ebay. In-Reply-To: <5B5AEFED-255A-46A1-B91A-A12EC325EEF7@vmssoftware.com> References: <5B5AEFED-255A-46A1-B91A-A12EC325EEF7@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: I suspected they were GE-PAC related. Ended up getting them, we'll see if they are readble He would have made 5x more if he wouldn't have ignored my offer, sucks to be him. On 12/17/18 12:48 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: > On 12/9/18, 10:40 PM, "cctech on behalf of Mattis Lind via cctech" wrote: > > Don't know if this worth saving. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294561797 > > 8 inch CDC disks from 1982. Maybe something interesting? > > I know what the software on those disks is, because I have these floppies too (and the system they're for). These are diagnostics for a 24-bit Honeywell 4500 process computer (a successor to the GE PAC 4000 system; some pictures on my website: https://vaxbarn.com/index.php/other-bits/654-honeywell-4500). I haven't imaged the ones I have yet, but I will get around to it eventually. Mine are CDC branded floppies as well, and the diskette drive that came with the 4500 was a Honeywell-labeled CDC drive. > > Camiel > > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Dec 17 16:12:17 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 14:12:17 -0800 Subject: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> Message-ID: <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> Thanks Jay, I think this means I?m starting to seriously consider a printer. :-( Zane > On Dec 17, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > Typically the files on Thingiverse are .STL format, which is portable 3D > model. One feeds it into a slicer program (there are several to choose > from) to produce GCode that uses the specifications of one's particular > printer so that the right GCode gets spit out. > > On 12/17/2018 3:26 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> Are the files ?platform independent?? I know very little about 3D printing, but have been tempted to get a printer for a while now. Though I?m worried about what my kids wanting to use it. :-) >> >> Zane From rlloken at telus.net Mon Dec 17 17:02:10 2018 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:02:10 -0700 (MST) Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home Message-ID: Ladies and gentlemen, I have immediate access to four Alphaservers, an RA8000 raid server, and the associated fibre switches in need of a new home. There three servers that were running Tru64 Unix 5 when shut down a week ago, they are a DS15, and two ES45s. There is also a third ES45 which has not run in a decade and was kept around as a cold spare. None of the RA8000 disk will be available because the present owner is protecting his data (of course) but all of the unused spare disks are available and they will fit the internal slots in the DS15 and ES45s which may or may not have disks depending on the whim of the present owner. Lots of paper docs and Tru64 OS installation kits but no licenses. They can be had for free but shipping will most assuridly not be free. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From rlloken at telus.net Mon Dec 17 17:07:54 2018 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:07:54 -0700 (MST) Subject: Lots of unused CompacTape IV Cartridges Available Message-ID: I have access to a trove of maybe 10 dozen unused CompacTape IV cartridges. These can be had free for the cost of shipping. I may be able to talk them out of a few DLT4000 and DLT tape drives as well, I don't know about that part. Anybody besides me still backing up his data on DLTs? I have a lifetime of spare cartridges already. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Dec 17 17:32:26 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:32:26 -0700 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/17/2018 04:02 PM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > I have immediate access to four Alphaservers, an RA8000 raid server, > and the associated fibre switches in need of a new home. Where are the servers located? Are they in Athabasca, Alberta Canada near you? > There three servers that were running Tru64 Unix 5 when shut down a week > ago, they are a DS15, and two ES45s. There is also a third ES45 which > has not run in a decade and was kept around as a cold spare. > > None of the RA8000 disk will be available because the present owner is > protecting his data (of course) but all of the unused spare disks are > available and they will fit the internal slots in the DS15 and ES45s which > may or may not have disks depending on the whim of the present owner. Understandable. Is the owner keeping the raw disks or are they disks staying in sleds / enclosures? Read: Are the enclosures sans-disks available? > Lots of paper docs and Tru64 OS installation kits but no licenses. ACK > They can be had for free but shipping will most assuridly not be free. Does it need to move as a single lot? Or is someone (you?) willing to passel things out (assuming everything moves relatively quickly)? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Dec 17 17:45:14 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:45:14 +0000 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 17, 2018, at 5:32 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/17/2018 04:02 PM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: >> I have immediate access to four Alphaservers, an RA8000 raid server, and the associated fibre switches in need of a new home. > > Where are the servers located? Are they in Athabasca, Alberta Canada near you? > >> There three servers that were running Tru64 Unix 5 when shut down a week ago, they are a DS15, and two ES45s. There is also a third ES45 which has not run in a decade and was kept around as a cold spare. >> None of the RA8000 disk will be available because the present owner is protecting his data (of course) but all of the unused spare disks are available and they will fit the internal slots in the DS15 and ES45s which may or may not have disks depending on the whim of the present owner. > > Understandable. > > Is the owner keeping the raw disks or are they disks staying in sleds / enclosures? Read: Are the enclosures sans-disks available? > >> Lots of paper docs and Tru64 OS installation kits but no licenses. > > ACK > >> They can be had for free but shipping will most assuridly not be free. > > Does it need to move as a single lot? Or is someone (you?) willing to passel things out (assuming everything moves relatively quickly)? > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die Wikipedia reports there is some variability in ES45 models, including number of CPU and amount of memory. Any idea what model/spec these are? Also: ?...The AlphaServer SC was a supercomputer constructed from a set of individual DS20L, ES40 or ES45 servers (called "nodes") mounted in racks?.? I hope hard enough that this cluster gets saved that if no-one else comes forward, I?d like to be notified?.I?m not certain what I could arrange, but the thought of running my own personal Alpha supercomputer ? wow. Not sure how to solve the license issue though. I assume OpenVMS doesn?t support that level of parallelization? - Mark From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Dec 17 17:59:25 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:59:25 -0700 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/17/2018 04:45 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > I hope hard enough that this cluster gets saved that if no-one else comes > forward, I?d like to be notified?.I?m not certain what I could > arrange, but the thought of running my own personal Alpha supercomputer > ? wow. Agreed. > Not sure how to solve the license issue though. I assume OpenVMS doesn?t > support that level of parallelization? I'm not sure what to make of OpenVMS doesn't support this level of parallelization. I know that (Open)VMS has some impressive clustering abilities. But I don't know how parallel different jobs can be. I would assume that it is highly dependent on the job at hand and how it was coded. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From rlloken at telus.net Mon Dec 17 18:14:45 2018 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 17:14:45 -0700 (MST) Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: Z2NDgaNNMUljYZ2NEgJ1rS References: Z2NDgaNNMUljYZ2NEgJ1rS Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 12/17/2018 04:02 PM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: >> I have immediate access to four Alphaservers, an RA8000 raid server, and >> the associated fibre switches in need of a new home. > > Where are the servers located? Are they in Athabasca, Alberta Canada near > you? Yes, they are within 1/2 mile of me... In Athabasca, Alberta Canada > Is the owner keeping the raw disks or are they disks staying in sleds / > enclosures? Read: Are the enclosures sans-disks available? I can get the sleds if they are of use to you. These machines all use the narrow HP Storage Works carriers not the wide blue or green ones. >> They can be had for free but shipping will most assuridly not be free. > > Does it need to move as a single lot? Or is someone (you?) willing to passel > things out (assuming everything moves relatively quickly)? All the dispersal, packing, and shipping will be done by me. The owner wants no part of it. I am willing to send small quantities of things hither and yon. Shipping a DS15 will be hard work but possible, shipping an ES45 will be seriously hard. I am unwilling to box and ship the RA8000/HSG80 but I am willing to part it out. Anybody who wants to come visit Athabasca with a 1/2 ton truck can have the whole lot including the 7 foot rack or a subset of the whole. I would be thrilled not to have to pack and ship stuff. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From rlloken at telus.net Mon Dec 17 18:27:48 2018 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 17:27:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: Z2ZkgJohvdz2tZ2Zlg7Gmz References: Z2ZkgJohvdz2tZ2Zlg7Gmz Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > Wikipedia reports there is some variability in ES45 models, including > number of CPU and amount of memory. Any idea what model/spec these are? If I recall correctly the ES45s each have 2 CPUs. The three ES45s are not intentical, the one that was purchased first had a CPU upgrade after a couple years but I do not recall either part number. I have no idea what the other two have for CPUs. Two of them have 32Gbyte of RAM, the cold spare is unknown. > Also: ?...The AlphaServer SC was a supercomputer constructed from a set of These were single computers that happen to be in the same rack. Two of them have the special HP cluster card whose name and number I forget so they were formed into a TruCluster once upon a time. > I hope hard enough that this cluster gets saved that if no-one else comes > forward, I?d like to be notified?.I?m not certain what I could arrange, > but the thought of running my own personal Alpha supercomputer ? wow. Not > sure how to solve the license issue though. I assume OpenVMS doesn?t > support that level of parallelization? I assume that VMS does support that level of parallelization. Anything Tru64 Unix does VMS does better. Anything Linux does Tru64 Unix does better. Have I made my bigotry clear? You will seriously raise your electric bill and somewhat lower your heating bill. All of this hardware is 120V single phase but it would like a couple circuit breakers all to itself. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 17 18:49:52 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:49:52 -0800 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6cee298d-49e2-3ef9-e4eb-0dad3916596d@bitsavers.org> On 12/17/18 4:27 PM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > Anything > Tru64 Unix does VMS does better.? Anything Linux does Tru64 Unix does > better. > > Have I made my bigotry clear? > Spoken like a true VMS Jackass Some things stay constant over the DECades From mcquiggi at me.com Mon Dec 17 18:51:48 2018 From: mcquiggi at me.com (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:51:48 -0800 Subject: Lots of unused CompacTape IV Cartridges Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91EAB448-582C-485C-983B-D3545D6A779B@me.com> Hi Richard: I have a couple of compatible drives that I use on my Microvaxes, if you could spare say 6 then that?d be great. I live in Vancouver and of course would pay shipping! Kevin McQuiggin Sent from my iPad > On Dec 17, 2018, at 15:07, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > > I have access to a trove of maybe 10 dozen unused CompacTape IV cartridges. > > These can be had free for the cost of shipping. I may be able to talk > them out of a few DLT4000 and DLT tape drives as well, I don't know about > that part. > > Anybody besides me still backing up his data on DLTs? I have a lifetime > of spare cartridges already. > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Mon Dec 17 18:54:24 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 00:54:24 +0000 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1596F437-B365-4789-BA9F-9789D5294806@andrewnesbit.org> Dear Richard, As soon as I saw this message my heart skipped a few beats, merely at the _possibility_ that I might be able to share in some of this hardware. I have been fascinated by my first HP AlphaServer DS15, ever since an acquaintance at the local hackspace kindly gave it to me. Here are some photos: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jxxkmh9fiaqdsjw/AAC5QdhR8NXE-Id5A44UYWRya?dl=0 I would love to take it all, and would gladly pay for shipping and insurance to the UK. But I don't want to be greedy either. Maybe there are other people on this list who would like to, or ought to, experience the same exhilaration as owning an AS. Having a small cluster of AlphaServers, plus RAID server and fibre switches, fits in SO PERFECTLY with my side project; it's about formalising methods for distributed computation and then making a libre-friendly distributed computing environment available to interested users in a communal or co-operative environment. I'm currently preparing the x86 portion of the overall project for shipping to colo. Several AS'es in an HA, resilient setup would be such a perfect complement. Please let me what you think! I value comments and questions from all. Kind regards, Andrew Sent from my mobile phone > On 17 Dec 2018, at 23:02, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > > Ladies and gentlemen, > > I have immediate access to four Alphaservers, an RA8000 raid server, > and the associated fibre switches in need of a new home. > > There three servers that were running Tru64 Unix 5 when shut down a week > ago, they are a DS15, and two ES45s. There is also a third ES45 which > has not run in a decade and was kept around as a cold spare. > > None of the RA8000 disk will be available because the present owner is > protecting his data (of course) but all of the unused spare disks are > available and they will fit the internal slots in the DS15 and ES45s > which may or may not have disks depending on the whim of the present owner. > > Lots of paper docs and Tru64 OS installation kits but no licenses. > > They can be had for free but shipping will most assuridly not be free. > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 19:29:25 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 17:29:25 -0800 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 3:45 PM Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > > I hope hard enough that this cluster gets saved that if no-one else comes forward, I?d like to be notified?.I?m not certain what I could arrange, but the thought of running my own personal Alpha supercomputer ? wow. Not sure how to solve the license issue though. I assume OpenVMS doesn?t support that level of parallelization? > I have two ES47 System Building Block Drawers boxes, each with two 1GHz 21364 EV7 processors, which form a four CPU ES47 Model 4 when the two boxes are connected via the interprocessor hose cables. I didn't have any issues getting OpenVMS 8.4 running on the four CPU system. Maybe the memory is half full, so 8GB in each of the two boxes. The real issue is that each of the two ES47 boxes weigh around 125 pounds and they are almost 3 feet deep, so not something I can pull out and set up for casual use. They were reasonably cheap on their own to acquire at the time, but the freight shipping certainly was not cheap. If someone in the Seattle area is really interested in an ES47 system, let me know, although I wouldn't want to just give them away completely free at this point. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Dec 17 20:00:26 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 19:00:26 -0700 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05d52028-1cf7-3f96-707c-42a02b8133f2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/17/18 5:27 PM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > Anything Tru64 Unix does VMS does better. Anything Linux does Tru64 > Unix does better. If that's true, then I would expect Tru64 to have better support of modern cryptographic ciphers than Linux. Carrying your analogy further, I'd expect to see bleeding edge development on future ciphers on (Open)VMS systems. > Have I made my bigotry clear? Yep. Have I? }:-) > You will seriously raise your electric bill and somewhat lower your > heating bill. All of this hardware is 120V single phase but it would > like a couple circuit breakers all to itself. Do the breakers need to come from /my/ breaker panel? Or do the Alphas care if they come from my neighbors house? ...Assuming that there's no sneak current or cross phase issues. I guess I could power them completely from my neighbor's place and just link our houses with optical fiber. :-D Or wireless! Seeing as how Linux sort of supports wireless, (Open)VMS is bound to have support for it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 21:40:00 2018 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 22:40:00 -0500 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are contractors who have the hardware to correctly and contractually perform mil spec data wipe in situations like this. More thorough than leaving sitting on some shelf and crossing fingers that one will find time to burn them or whatever. On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 6:02 PM Richard Loken via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Ladies and gentlemen, > > I have immediate access to four Alphaservers, an RA8000 raid server, > and the associated fibre switches in need of a new home. > > There three servers that were running Tru64 Unix 5 when shut down a week > ago, they are a DS15, and two ES45s. There is also a third ES45 which > has not run in a decade and was kept around as a cold spare. > > None of the RA8000 disk will be available because the present owner is > protecting his data (of course) but all of the unused spare disks are > available and they will fit the internal slots in the DS15 and ES45s > which may or may not have disks depending on the whim of the present owner. > > Lots of paper docs and Tru64 OS installation kits but no licenses. > > They can be had for free but shipping will most assuridly not be free. > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we > wear, > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 23:09:23 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:09:23 -0600 Subject: Hayes Transet Manual and Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 10:12 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > Jason, you can send it my direction for scanning if you like. I built a > book scanner a while back to handle all the Crescent Software manuals I I just watched your video on your DIY scanner - good work! I'll keep it in mind, but I really ought to just do it over here and do a better job of it. I'll get to it. In the meantime, here is the Macintosh software that came with it. I learned a bit about Mac disk formats when trying to image this one on a KryoFlux. It came on a 400K disk, which is MFS, and Ciderpress won't load it that filesystem, making me think it was a bad read. Finally stuck it in MiniVMac and up it came. I transferred the files to an 800K HFS disk image for convenience. Both are posted here: http://nocarrier.net/archive/floppy_images/Hayes It's a bootable disk with Finder 4.1, which I've never seen before. Again, if anyone knows where the PC version of the software is, I'd love to have it. -j From rlloken at telus.net Mon Dec 17 23:24:33 2018 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 22:24:33 -0700 (MST) Subject: Lots of unused CompacTape IV Cartridges Available In-Reply-To: Z3bxglcqeQvFWZ3bzgH4mQ References: Z3bxglcqeQvFWZ3bzgH4mQ Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > I have a couple of compatible drives that I use on my Microvaxes, if you > could spare say 6 then that?d be great. I live in Vancouver and of course > would pay shipping! Good! Six down, 114 to go! I will get six for you. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From rlloken at telus.net Mon Dec 17 23:28:56 2018 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 22:28:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: Z6EhgbfHhUljYZ6EugK5KS References: Z6EhgbfHhUljYZ6EugK5KS Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > There are contractors who have the hardware to correctly and contractually > perform mil spec data wipe in situations like this. > More thorough than leaving sitting on some shelf and crossing fingers that > one will find time to burn them or whatever. I seriously don't care what happens to their data or their disks. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Dec 17 23:46:40 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 21:46:40 -0800 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: <6cee298d-49e2-3ef9-e4eb-0dad3916596d@bitsavers.org> References: <6cee298d-49e2-3ef9-e4eb-0dad3916596d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <027ED18A-DBF3-47A5-B795-358656F941CE@avanthar.com> > On Dec 17, 2018, at 4:49 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/17/18 4:27 PM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: >> Anything >> Tru64 Unix does VMS does better. Anything Linux does Tru64 Unix does >> better. >> >> Have I made my bigotry clear? > > Spoken like a true VMS Jackass > > Some things stay constant over the DECades Face it Al, there is no better OS than VMS. I for one am looking forwards to the completion of the port to Xeon. Zane From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Dec 17 15:02:31 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:02:31 -0500 Subject: IF you need these old vintage parts, PLEASE grab them before the keyboard keids do! In-Reply-To: <040c01d4964a$353885b0$9fa99110$@com> References: <040c01d4964a$353885b0$9fa99110$@com> Message-ID: > https://www.elecshopper.com/vintage-computers.html I really would rather > these go to someone who needs them to complete a system than to the > destroyers of keyboards. > > I am trying to get more of the vintage stuff listed. If you want to see > items as they are listed online, please turn on your RSS feeds. > > https://www.elecshopper.com/rss/ How can you ask $75 for an untested Osborne keyboard? From andrew at canaldwellers.org Mon Dec 17 18:50:39 2018 From: andrew at canaldwellers.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 00:50:39 +0000 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAD619F-8FCC-4390-86D4-3398FB2431A4@canaldwellers.org> Dear Richard, As soon as I saw this message my heart skipped a few beats, merely at the _possibility_ that I might be able to share in some of this hardware. I have been fascinated by my first HP AlphaServer DS15, ever since an acquaintance at the local hackspace kindly gave it to me. Here are some photos: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jxxkmh9fiaqdsjw/AAC5QdhR8NXE-Id5A44UYWRya?dl=0 I would love to take it all, and would gladly pay for shipping and insurance to the UK. But I don't want to be greedy either. Maybe there are other people on this list who would like to, or ought to, experience the same exhilaration as owning an AS. Having a small cluster of AlphaServers, plus RAID server and fibre switches, fits in SO PERFECTLY with my side project; it's about formalising methods for distributed computation and then making a libre-friendly distributed computing environment available to interested users in a communal or co-operative environment. I'm currently preparing the x86 portion of the overall project for shipping to colo. Several AS'es in an HA, resilient setup would be such a perfect complement. Please let me what you think! I value comments and questions from all. Kind regards, Andrew Sent from my mobile phone > On 17 Dec 2018, at 23:02, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > > Ladies and gentlemen, > > I have immediate access to four Alphaservers, an RA8000 raid server, > and the associated fibre switches in need of a new home. > > There three servers that were running Tru64 Unix 5 when shut down a week > ago, they are a DS15, and two ES45s. There is also a third ES45 which > has not run in a decade and was kept around as a cold spare. > > None of the RA8000 disk will be available because the present owner is > protecting his data (of course) but all of the unused spare disks are > available and they will fit the internal slots in the DS15 and ES45s > which may or may not have disks depending on the whim of the present owner. > > Lots of paper docs and Tru64 OS installation kits but no licenses. > > They can be had for free but shipping will most assuridly not be free. > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Dec 18 03:41:44 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 09:41:44 +0000 Subject: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <5AF3284813CC7257@rgout05.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Zane Healy via cctalk Sent: 17 December 2018 21:26 To: Torfinn Ingolfsen; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 8-Update Are the files ?platform independent?? I know very little about 3D printing, but have been tempted to get a printer for a while now. Though I?m worried about what my kids wanting to use it. :-) Zane On Dec 17, 2018, at 1:12 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > > > FWIW, the easiest way to find out if somebody has made (or has tried > to make) replacement parts for anything that can be 3D-printed is to > go to thingiverse.com with your web browser. > And then search for whatever thing you need (search terms / words are > a separate subject, try as wide or as many as have time for. > When you find a part, look at pictures, comments, makes and so on to > try to figure out if this is a working part or just something somebody > has mad a 3D model of, and never tested. > Some relevant examples: > https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853 PDP-8 Panel Switch Toggle > https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:386762 DEC RL-02 Spindle Ground Brush > https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2454690 PDP Stand - Mount > > HTH > On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 10:35 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> >> >> >> On 12/15/18 11:36 PM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: >> >>> However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an 8/e out of modern parts. >> >> Redoing the CPU in obtanium TTL would be desirable. >> >> > > > -- > mvh > Torfinn I have an .slt for the PDP-8/e lever Rod From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 04:08:57 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 05:08:57 -0500 Subject: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <5c18c105.1c69fb81.5b7fa.3e0cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <5c18c105.1c69fb81.5b7fa.3e0cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <042c01d496b9$b103cf00$130b6d00$@gmail.com> >I have an .slt for the PDP-8/e lever >Rod Please publish/share? paul From sales at elecplus.com Tue Dec 18 08:42:58 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 08:42:58 -0600 Subject: IF you need these old vintage parts, PLEASE grab them before the keyboard keids do! In-Reply-To: References: <040c01d4964a$353885b0$9fa99110$@com> Message-ID: <014b01d496df$f8434aa0$e8c9dfe0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz via cctalk Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 3:03 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IF you need these old vintage parts, PLEASE grab them before the keyboard keids do! > https://www.elecshopper.com/vintage-computers.html I really would rather > these go to someone who needs them to complete a system than to the > destroyers of keyboards. > > I am trying to get more of the vintage stuff listed. If you want to see > items as they are listed online, please turn on your RSS feeds. > > https://www.elecshopper.com/rss/ How can you ask $75 for an untested Osborne keyboard? How would you suggest I test it, since I don't have the computer? These almost NEVER show up at the recyclers anymore. Sorry if the price offends you. What do you think it is worth? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Dec 18 08:47:15 2018 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 08:47:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: IF you need these old vintage parts, PLEASE grab them before the keyboard keids do! In-Reply-To: References: <040c01d4964a$353885b0$9fa99110$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: >> https://www.elecshopper.com/vintage-computers.html I really would rather >> these go to someone who needs them to complete a system than to the >> destroyers of keyboards. >> >> I am trying to get more of the vintage stuff listed. If you want to see >> items as they are listed online, please turn on your RSS feeds. >> >> https://www.elecshopper.com/rss/ > > How can you ask $75 for an untested Osborne keyboard? Because the 'keyboard keids' will gleefully pay $75 for it. The market would bear a considerably higher price and it appears Cindy is already discounting it - one likes to think in the hopes a person who would connect it to an Osborne would purchase it. At home we'd call this 'mates rates'. While I respect your view point, and I similarly get flustered at the ridiculous prices that our hobby now commands due to "retro is cool", I know you surely also appreciate that a business is a business - and Electronics Plus is a business. (I have no affiliation with EP personally, nor in fact have I ever personally purchased from them, but am just a soul frustrated by ever growing prices and appreciate a more reasonable price... for various values of 'reasonable'). - JP From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Dec 18 10:08:03 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 16:08:03 +0000 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 17, 2018, at 7:29 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > I have two ES47 System Building Block Drawers boxes, each with two > 1GHz 21364 EV7 processors, which form a four CPU ES47 Model 4 when the > two boxes are connected via the interprocessor hose cables. I didn't > have any issues getting OpenVMS 8.4 running on the four CPU system. > Maybe the memory is half full, so 8GB in each of the two boxes. Glen, this is interesting! My comment was based on looking at: https://support.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c00376999#N10010 First hit on my gurgle search and I apparently didn?t do enough digging. That page lists CPU?s available including ES45, and calls out as software, "Tru64 UNIX 5.1a HP AlphaServer SC system software, including Cluster File System, Parallel File System, and Platform LSF?. Not to start a flame war, but I?m well aware VMS supports clustering pretty well, so I?m puzzled - does anyone know why the Product Description called out Tru64 rather than VMS or both? Was Compaq de-emphasizing VMS when that was written? - Mark From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Dec 18 10:12:42 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 16:12:42 +0000 Subject: An interesting talk about Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: Carl talks about the restoration he is doing with the computer and some video cuts. Carl has several complete videos on this web page as well. https://youtu.be/3rz7gAOWVsI?t=3188 Dwight From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Dec 18 10:27:33 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 08:27:33 -0800 Subject: IF you need these old vintage parts, PLEASE grab them before the keyboard keids do! In-Reply-To: References: <040c01d4964a$353885b0$9fa99110$@com> Message-ID: <3E6CF264-5804-4D4E-8039-63ED57664783@avanthar.com> > On Dec 18, 2018, at 6:47 AM, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: >>> https://www.elecshopper.com/vintage-computers.html I really would rather >>> these go to someone who needs them to complete a system than to the >>> destroyers of keyboards. >>> I am trying to get more of the vintage stuff listed. If you want to see >>> items as they are listed online, please turn on your RSS feeds. >>> https://www.elecshopper.com/rss/ >> >> How can you ask $75 for an untested Osborne keyboard? > > Because the 'keyboard keids' will gleefully pay $75 for it. The market would bear a considerably higher price and it appears Cindy is already discounting it - one likes to think in the hopes a person who would connect it to an Osborne would purchase it. At home we'd call this 'mates rates'. > > While I respect your view point, and I similarly get flustered at the ridiculous prices that our hobby now commands due to "retro is cool", I know you surely also appreciate that a business is a business - and Electronics Plus is a business. > > (I have no affiliation with EP personally, nor in fact have I ever personally purchased from them, but am just a soul frustrated by ever growing prices and appreciate a more reasonable price... for various values of 'reasonable'). > > - JP Well said. On another note, good grief! I just googled some stuff that I?ve been contemplating letting go to make room for other things. Zane From carlojpisani at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 10:34:50 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:34:50 +0100 Subject: Tektronix X11 xterminal xp217 In-Reply-To: <3E6CF264-5804-4D4E-8039-63ED57664783@avanthar.com> References: <040c01d4964a$353885b0$9fa99110$@com> <3E6CF264-5804-4D4E-8039-63ED57664783@avanthar.com> Message-ID: hi for sale a Tektronix X11 terminal model xp217 it comes with its original firmware (on a CD), and its original PSU, able to accept 110-250VAC It's located in Italy. I am looking for 200 Euro for it + S/H From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Dec 18 11:11:53 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:11:53 -0700 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/18/2018 09:08 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > Not to start a flame war, but I?m well aware VMS supports clustering > pretty well, so I?m puzzled - does anyone know why the Product > Description called out Tru64 rather than VMS or both? Was Compaq > de-emphasizing VMS when that was written? Is there a chance that what you found was a kit (order able SKU) that included Tru64? As in was there possibly a different kit (SKU) that was (Open)VMS? I remember seeing similar from Compaq for Windows NT vs NetWare. Same hardware, just different software (and possibly factory BIOS config / optimizations). -- Grant. . . . unix || die From sales at elecplus.com Tue Dec 18 11:25:26 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:25:26 -0600 Subject: Data General D214 terminals Message-ID: <027a01d496f6$aaaa5d80$ffff1880$@com> Found a couple in MA. The company is an old Data General dealership for over 20 years. Bob Smolinsky Sr. Purchasing Mgr / Sales bsmolinsky at congruity.com Ph: 781-826-9080 Mobile: 617-435-4884 56 Pembroke Woods Drive, Pembroke, MA. 02359 Tell him I sent you. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Dec 18 11:28:51 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 09:28:51 -0800 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 18, 2018, at 9:11 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/18/2018 09:08 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: >> Not to start a flame war, but I?m well aware VMS supports clustering pretty well, so I?m puzzled - does anyone know why the Product Description called out Tru64 rather than VMS or both? Was Compaq de-emphasizing VMS when that was written? > > Is there a chance that what you found was a kit (order able SKU) that included Tru64? As in was there possibly a different kit (SKU) that was (Open)VMS? > > I remember seeing similar from Compaq for Windows NT vs NetWare. Same hardware, just different software (and possibly factory BIOS config / optimizations). Tru64 supports various bits of hardware not supported by VMS. The one that is in the forefront of my mind is video cards, but I wouldn?t be surprised if there aren?t also disk controllers. On Alpha?s, the SRM console supports both OpenVMS and Tru64, while the ARC firmware only supports WinNT. As for the product description calling out the clustering in Tru64, perhaps they simply assumed anyone looking knew it would be supported in VMS. Zane From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Dec 18 11:32:28 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 09:32:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hayes Transet Manual and Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 10:12 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: >> Jason, you can send it my direction for scanning if you like. I built a >> book scanner a while back to handle all the Crescent Software manuals I > > I just watched your video on your DIY scanner - good work! I'll keep > it in mind, but I really ought to just do it over here and do a better > job of it. I'll get to it. > No worries. I figured I'd offer. I'm glad you scanned it - I've got a Transet 1000 with no manual or power supply. I had only the vaguest idea of what it did. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From rlloken at telus.net Tue Dec 18 11:37:17 2018 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:37:17 -0700 (MST) Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: ZHuogDYCYBdpLZHurgSeTL References: ZHuogDYCYBdpLZHurgSeTL Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2018, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > Not to start a flame war, but I?m well aware VMS supports clustering > pretty well, so I?m puzzled - does anyone know why the Product Description > called out Tru64 rather than VMS or both? Was Compaq de-emphasizing VMS > when that was written? DEC, Compaq, and HP always had separate part numbers and product descriptions for Tru64, VMS, and Windows systems. I know from repeated experiance that you can run either OS on these systems and I also know that all the ES45 hardware is supported by VMS including the video cards. I also know that the DS20 mother boards had hardware on them such as USB controllers and maybe SCSI controllers that were not supported by either OS. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Dec 18 12:40:14 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:40:14 -0700 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7902118e-126b-af66-190f-7c828f2720d7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/18/2018 10:28 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > On Alpha?s, the SRM console supports both OpenVMS and Tru64, while > the ARC firmware only supports WinNT. Wasn't it possible to switch between ARC and SRM on many Alphas? As in to overwrite one firmware with the other? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Dec 18 12:55:02 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:55:02 -0800 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: <7902118e-126b-af66-190f-7c828f2720d7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <7902118e-126b-af66-190f-7c828f2720d7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 18, 2018, at 10:40 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/18/2018 10:28 AM, Zane Healy wrote: >> On Alpha?s, the SRM console supports both OpenVMS and Tru64, while the ARC firmware only supports WinNT. > > Wasn't it possible to switch between ARC and SRM on many Alphas? As in to overwrite one firmware with the other? Yes, for example on a DEC PWS 433au. It is also possible to load the SRM console on a DEC PWS 433a (Windows NT only), and once you had a supported SCSI card, and if you wanted video, a supported video card, you can run OpenVMS (or Tru64). This was my primary VMS box for many years, including several years after one of the PCI slots died (which speaks highly in my mind about how well the hardware was made). My main box is now a Compaq XP1000/667, though I?m slowly moving everything to a virtualized cluster. Zane From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Dec 18 13:01:20 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:01:20 -0700 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: <7902118e-126b-af66-190f-7c828f2720d7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 12/18/2018 11:55 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > My main box is now a Compaq XP1000/667, though I?m slowly moving > everything to a virtualized cluster. Will you please share details about what you're hosting your virtualized cluster on? Please include emulator and / or hypervisor. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 18 13:16:14 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:16:14 -0800 Subject: Spotted an NOS IBM 2314 disk pack Message-ID: <988d73f6-6f98-1817-87c5-6e3defeb29ea@bitsavers.org> https://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-computer-Wright-Line-Disk-Pack-Data-Processing-Accessory-in-Box-2314-6/323599528210 someone was looking for one in the recent past From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 13:19:10 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 13:19:10 -0600 Subject: Hayes Transet Manual and Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 11:32 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > I'm glad you scanned it - I've got a Transet 1000 with no manual or power > supply. I had only the vaguest idea of what it did. ;) > Seems no one does for sure. There are some old ads and some posts here and there (one from an ex-Hayes employee who confessed that he, too, wasn't sure what it did or was supposed to do), but I've found nothing from anyone who's used one to _do_ anything. So now we get to piece it together. Computer archeology is fun. j From sales at elecplus.com Tue Dec 18 13:36:22 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 13:36:22 -0600 Subject: More old stuff incoming Message-ID: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> I talked to a recycler today, who said he told his workers to throw out 2000 Model F keyboards last week, but he doubts they did it. I also asked him about 8088, 2086, and 386 computers. He said they go straight to the grinder. I told him I will buy them. Then an HP dealer contacted me, wants to know if I buy old HP stuff. I told him Apollo and earlier. Let me know if there is something specific HP you want. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Dec 18 13:41:41 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:41:41 -0800 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: <7902118e-126b-af66-190f-7c828f2720d7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <28E77CC0-00A7-4469-A984-09D2A3DEF594@avanthar.com> > On Dec 18, 2018, at 11:01 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/18/2018 11:55 AM, Zane Healy wrote: >> My main box is now a Compaq XP1000/667, though I?m slowly moving everything to a virtualized cluster. > > Will you please share details about what you're hosting your virtualized cluster on? Please include emulator and / or hypervisor. HP SFF PC?s running: VMware cluster on ESXI 6.7 (and then Ubuntu Linux running SIMH), OpenVMS/VAX 7.3 Ubuntu Server running SIMH, OpenVMS/VAX 7.3 (I need to virtualize this Ubuntu server) Raspberry Pi 2+: Raspian running SIMH, OpenVMS/VAX 7.3 Compaq XP1000/667, running OpenVMS/Alpha 8.3 Now that I have the cluster up and running, my primary use for the Alpha is WASD, Oracle RDB, and Fortran, I?ve moved pretty much everything else to SIMH, including drive capacity. Unfortunately there aren?t any good solutions to move an Alpha to an emulator, when the system is for Hobbyist use. I find that VM?s running on VMware make an great SIMH host. Once I virtualize my Ubuntu server box, it will become a 3rd node in my VMware cluster (I?m licensed for up to 6 CPU?s). Zane From connork at connorsdomain.com Tue Dec 18 09:16:43 2018 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:16:43 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: <031E95A2-7C51-44E0-B9F8-0A6DFC240933@vmssoftware.com> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <031E95A2-7C51-44E0-B9F8-0A6DFC240933@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: <097933a6-8ae4-6419-2d4e-d965b6907e30@connorsdomain.com> Well I ended up picking up this machine. Its a bit beaten in some places, cleaner than expected in others. Overall it cleaned up pretty well and all power-supplies appear to work well! Got it up to DG's "ODT" can't remember what they called it. Ram looks good at the beginning of the address space anyway. This has a "JR. CPU" board in, a Cassette I/O board which I believe only has an extra UART on it, none of the cassette interface as its pretty sparse. And the 8" Disk controller board (6030 controller). Overall a pretty small machine. Looks like it used two serial ports, one at 9600 baud for the primary console, then the other at 300 baud. Probably a teletype off to the side. Seems to be a 1981 machine. Unfortunately I got no docs or media with this machine. And it appears all that is up on bitsavers are tape images? Anyone have any disk images for the 6030 drive of anything like RDOS? Photos: https://imgur.com/a/A0hZEVf -Connor K On 12/12/18 3:37 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: > And I assume the Fortran IV compiler could run on this system. > > ?On 12/12/18, 9:11 PM, "cctalk on behalf of William Donzelli via cctalk" wrote: > > While this is an absurdly small Data General Nova system for the era > (at least it is not a microNova), you would run RDOS - not unlike a > dual 8 inch floppy Z80 system of the day. > > -- > Will > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:27 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: > > > > How does a person program this computer? I assume there's no C compiler. > > > > Would one have to boot to a DOS, then load a compiler into RAM, then read > > program text into ram, them compile? > > > > I have less-than-zero experience with DG systems, but a higher-than-zero > > adoration for their design/pedigree. > > > > =] > > -- > > Anders Nelson > > > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > > > www.erogear.com > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:21 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Shoot, was asking my wife if I could have it for Christmas to replace my > > > regular desk in the family room :) > > > But to keep the decor of our home a little more sane, I'll abstain from > > > bidding and wish you best of luck instead! > > > > > > happy holidays and good luck! > > > --jake > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 1:28 PM Connor Krukosky via cctalk < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Alright, I think I will go for it. I am not too far from it being in > > > > Poughkeepsie. > > > > Always loved the desk machines, and I personally have another kinda > > > > parts Nova 4 that hopefully I can use to switch parts between to get one > > > > really nice machine :) > > > > > > > > -Connor K > > > > > > > > On 2018-12-11 13:04, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > > > > I had one of those quite a few years ago. The desk comes apart fairly > > > > > easily. The main unit is just a standard shorty 19" rack. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Will > > > > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:34 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> I'm about an hour drive away and somewhat interested, but I don't have > > > > >> space for the desk unfortunately. > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> Anders Nelson > > > > >> > > > > >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > > > > >> > > > > >> www.erogear.com > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Tony Aiuto > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > It is close enough to me to rescue, but I really don't have the > > > space > > > > to > > > > >> > store it. > > > > >> > Will anyone take it if I hold it a while? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:24 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < > > > > >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >> Would this system fit in a standard 19" wide equipment rack? > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> =] > > > > >> >> -- > > > > >> >> Anders Nelson > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> +1 (517) 775-6129 > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> www.erogear.com > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > > > > >> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Cribbed from VCF: > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Chuck > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 14:38:49 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 15:38:49 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: <097933a6-8ae4-6419-2d4e-d965b6907e30@connorsdomain.com> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <031E95A2-7C51-44E0-B9F8-0A6DFC240933@vmssoftware.com> <097933a6-8ae4-6419-2d4e-d965b6907e30@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: > Looks like it used two serial ports, one at 9600 > baud for the primary console, then the other at 300 baud. Probably a > teletype off to the side. It is far more likely to have had a Dasher terminal, in this era. > Unfortunately I got no docs or media with this machine. And it appears > all that is up on bitsavers are tape images? Contact Wild Hare for all things DG. -- Will From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Dec 18 15:08:34 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 13:08:34 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> Message-ID: > On Dec 18, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > I talked to a recycler today, who said he told his workers to throw out 2000 > Model F keyboards last week, but he doubts they did it. > > I also asked him about 8088, 2086, and 386 computers. He said they go > straight to the grinder. I told him I will buy them. > > Then an HP dealer contacted me, wants to know if I buy old HP stuff. I told > him Apollo and earlier. Let me know if there is something specific HP you > want. Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for 8086/88, 286, and 386 computers? What are folks using them for? Zane From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Dec 18 15:16:37 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 13:16:37 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> Message-ID: <009201d49716$f6d361f0$e47a25d0$@net> > Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for 8086/88, 286, and 386 > computers? What are folks using them for? Why not? I am guessing most are used to play games but it really depends on your generation and time period. I am always surprised how many DEC/PDP aficionados there are. At least with the 8086 series of systems you can still (relatively) easily interface them to a modern system. -Ali From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 18 15:35:27 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 13:35:27 -0800 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <031E95A2-7C51-44E0-B9F8-0A6DFC240933@vmssoftware.com> <097933a6-8ae4-6419-2d4e-d965b6907e30@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: On 12/18/18 12:38 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> Unfortunately I got no docs or media with this machine. And it appears >> all that is up on bitsavers are tape images? Everything DG related on bitsavers has been on hold for a while until the licensing situation with EMC worked itself through. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Dec 18 15:41:51 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 14:41:51 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> Message-ID: <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/18/2018 02:08 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for 8086/88, 286, and > 386 computers? What are folks using them for? I know that there is an active IBM PS/2 collectors community that would be happy with anything in that range. I think PS/2s range from 286 - (very few) Pentium. I don't /think/ there were any 8086 / 8088 PS/2s, but I could be mistaken. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 16:02:46 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:02:46 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Sure, the PS/2 Model 25 and 30 were 8086. There's a lot of x86 gear still in production in industrial environments. I've got a customer running part of a semiconductor line on industrial 286s with no plans to retire them anytime soon. Not the oldest systems I support for $day_job by far. And of course there's plenty of hobbyist interest in older x86 stuff. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 4:42 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/18/2018 02:08 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for 8086/88, 286, and > > 386 computers? What are folks using them for? > > I know that there is an active IBM PS/2 collectors community that would > be happy with anything in that range. > > I think PS/2s range from 286 - (very few) Pentium. I don't /think/ > there were any 8086 / 8088 PS/2s, but I could be mistaken. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 18 16:51:11 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 15:51:11 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> Message-ID: <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/18/2018 2:08 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On Dec 18, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: >> >> I talked to a recycler today, who said he told his workers to throw out 2000 >> Model F keyboards last week, but he doubts they did it. >> >> I also asked him about 8088, 2086, and 386 computers. He said they go >> straight to the grinder. I told him I will buy them. >> >> Then an HP dealer contacted me, wants to know if I buy old HP stuff. I told >> him Apollo and earlier. Let me know if there is something specific HP you >> want. > > Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for 8086/88, 286, and 386 computers? What are folks using them for? > > Zane > I would take a guess for custom hardware or software that never migrated to Windows 13 or USB IIV. Ben. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Dec 18 18:21:18 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 16:21:18 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> Message-ID: <1DBCBE43-68F9-47DC-BCC9-13CF20984D5E@eschatologist.net> Thanks for doing this, Cindy! Old Apollo and HP stuff (they used to be separate companies, but HP bought Apollo in the late 1980s) is definitely something I and others want. There?s also a small aftermarket for HP 9000/200 and HP 9000/300 equipment since there are still industrial control & measurement systems that run on it. Personally I?m quite interested in everything related to HP 9000, whether it?s the /200, /300, /400, /700, or /800 series. (Not so interested in the /500 myself but I?m sure there are plenty of people who are.) -- Chris From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 18 18:30:55 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 19:30:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram. Message-ID: <20181219003055.30FC218C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning >>> core memory details such as destructive read weren't visible to the >>> CPU > DATAIP/DATAO on the Unibus doesn't depend on the destructive read > property. Yes, the CPU can't tell what the memory is doing. > The reason it existed is that it allows core memory to optimize the > timing In other words, it's only there to allow the CPU to act in a way that works well with core memory. Whether that means that the way core operates is "visible" to the CPU is a debate about definitions. Put it another way - do any modern CPU's do 'read-modify-write' cycles (other than for interlocks in a multi-CPU system)? Noel From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Dec 18 19:48:48 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:48:48 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> > On Dec 18, 2018, at 2:51 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > I would take a guess for custom hardware or software that never migrated to Windows 13 or USB IIV. Ben. Being a photographer, I know there is a real market for this. Many high-end scanners will only work with older Macintosh or Windows systems. I have a scanner that originally cost $10,000, and the only software for it runs on Windows XP (thankfully I can use Parallels Desktop to run XP and use it). Other, even more expensive scanners require even older software that requires physical systems. I also have some pretty high-end Macintosh A/V HW & SW that won?t run on newer systems. I?m sure there is plenty of lab type equipment in this category as well. Zane From jason at smbfc.net Tue Dec 18 22:53:31 2018 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 20:53:31 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> Indeed. Just this year, we pulled our Pentium Pro box off our museum shelf and did a fresh install of NT4 for a faculty member and their scientific instrument. --Jason On 12/18/18 5:48 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On Dec 18, 2018, at 2:51 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> I would take a guess for custom hardware or software that never migrated to Windows 13 or USB IIV. Ben. > Being a photographer, I know there is a real market for this. Many high-end scanners will only work with older Macintosh or Windows systems. I have a scanner that originally cost $10,000, and the only software for it runs on Windows XP (thankfully I can use Parallels Desktop to run XP and use it). Other, even more expensive scanners require even older software that requires physical systems. I also have some pretty high-end Macintosh A/V HW & SW that won?t run on newer systems. > > I?m sure there is plenty of lab type equipment in this category as well. > > Zane > > > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 18 23:02:44 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 22:02:44 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <2273d704-947d-f4f3-26ba-9ce9e3cf1469@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/18/2018 9:53 PM, Jason Howe via cctalk wrote: > Indeed. > > Just this year, we pulled our Pentium Pro box off our museum shelf and > did a fresh install of NT4 for a faculty member and their scientific > instrument. > > --Jason > Z80's and 8 bit IBM pc's are making a come back if you dig on the web. The Walnut Creek CP/M Archive CD-ROM can be found here. http://www.glitchwrks.com/2010/10/25/walnut-creek-cpm Ben. From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 23:03:56 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 00:03:56 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> Message-ID: I repaired a Spectrometer for Morgan University in Baltimore that had a vintage computer at its heart, used for training purposes and perfectly good. The computer just needed some TLC to get it back up and running. I think it was a P-II as well, there was a control card that would only work with the pre-PCI bus b On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 11:54 PM Jason Howe via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Indeed. > > Just this year, we pulled our Pentium Pro box off our museum shelf and > did a fresh install of NT4 for a faculty member and their scientific > instrument. > > --Jason > > > > On 12/18/18 5:48 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On Dec 18, 2018, at 2:51 PM, ben via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> I would take a guess for custom hardware or software that never > migrated to Windows 13 or USB IIV. Ben. > > Being a photographer, I know there is a real market for this. Many > high-end scanners will only work with older Macintosh or Windows systems. > I have a scanner that originally cost $10,000, and the only software for it > runs on Windows XP (thankfully I can use Parallels Desktop to run XP and > use it). Other, even more expensive scanners require even older software > that requires physical systems. I also have some pretty high-end Macintosh > A/V HW & SW that won?t run on newer systems. > > > > I?m sure there is plenty of lab type equipment in this category as well. > > > > Zane > > > > > > > > > > > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Dec 18 23:10:29 2018 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 23:10:29 -0600 Subject: Any VCF Forum Mods or Admin here? Message-ID: <8bb32e53-24ce-66a4-bc57-fe8193128a63@thereinhardts.org> Does anyone here have any pull or contacts with the owner or moderator at the Vintage Computer Federation forums?? I've been a member there since January 2014.? In the past, I've lurked a lot, made a post here and there but have been pretty inactive. As such, my account is still moderated and post must be approved. In October I got more active, culminating with a thread asking about using a SCSI2SD card with a MicroVAX and OpenVMS V7.3 . After a few waits to get post approved, I figured at some point I would get un-moderated, but no such luck.? So I wrote the Site Admin Erik a PM and asked to be un-moderated.? He wrote back that it was done but unfortunately my next post and any others since then are still being held for approval.? That was October 27th.? They still have not been approved (nor rejected, they are in limbo as far as I know).? I PMed Erik back but according to his profile he hasn't logged in since October 26th.? After a while I sent a message to the moderators as outlined in this sticky . No response. So I am asking here because I figure there must be some overlap and maybe someone know someone that can help Thanks. -- John H. Reinhardt From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Dec 18 23:24:33 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 00:24:33 -0500 Subject: Any VCF Forum Mods or Admin here? In-Reply-To: <8bb32e53-24ce-66a4-bc57-fe8193128a63@thereinhardts.org> References: <8bb32e53-24ce-66a4-bc57-fe8193128a63@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: I'll take care of it. On 12/19/18 12:10 AM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone here have any pull or contacts with the owner or moderator > at the Vintage Computer Federation forums?? I've been a member there > since January 2014.? In the past, I've lurked a lot, made a post here > and there but have been pretty inactive. As such, my account is still > moderated and post must be approved. In October I got more active, > culminating with a thread asking about using a SCSI2SD card with a > MicroVAX and OpenVMS V7.3 > . > After a few waits to get post approved, I figured at some point I would > get un-moderated, but no such luck.? So I wrote the Site Admin Erik > a PM and asked to be > un-moderated.? He wrote back that it was done but unfortunately my next > post and any others since then are still being held for approval.? That > was October 27th.? They still have not been approved (nor rejected, they > are in limbo as far as I know).? I PMed Erik back but according to his > profile he hasn't logged in since October 26th.? After a while I sent a > message to the moderators as outlined in this sticky > . No response. > > > So I am asking here because I figure there must be some overlap and > maybe someone know someone that can help > > > Thanks. > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Dec 18 23:49:00 2018 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 23:49:00 -0600 Subject: Any VCF Forum Mods or Admin here? In-Reply-To: References: <8bb32e53-24ce-66a4-bc57-fe8193128a63@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <0c03b464-ac7c-fc58-fdf6-2749e4bb54a8@thereinhardts.org> On 12/18/2018 11:24 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > I'll take care of it. > > On 12/19/18 12:10 AM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >> Does anyone here have any pull or contacts with the owner or moderator at the Vintage Computer Federation forums?? I've been a member there since January 2014.? In the past, I've lurked a lot, made a post here and there but have been pretty inactive. As such, my account is still moderated and post must be approved. In October I got more active, culminating with a thread asking about using a SCSI2SD card with a MicroVAX and OpenVMS V7.3 . After a few waits to get post approved, I figured at some point I would get un-moderated, but no such luck.? So I wrote the Site Admin Erik a PM and asked to be un-moderated.? He wrote back that it was done but unfortunately my next post and any others since then are still being held for approval.? That was October 27th.? They still have not been approved (nor rejected, they are in limbo as far as I know).? >> I PMed Erik back but according to his profile he hasn't logged in since October 26th.? After a while I sent a message to the moderators as outlined in this sticky . No response. >> >> >> So I am asking here because I figure there must be some overlap and maybe someone know someone that can help >> >> >> Thanks. >> > And Evan did!? All he had to do was mention fixing it and it was. Actually, it may have been fixed long ago.? Evan looked and my account appeared to be already set to un-moderated so I tried a new post and it worked without problem.? I don't know why I didn't try sooner or why it seemed back in October not to work. But it works now and I am happy. Thanks Evan!? VCF runs a great set of forums. -- John H. Reinhardt From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 19 00:09:38 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 22:09:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3D printer $179.99 (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> Message-ID: If you are seriously considering getting one, consider: https://www.woot.com/category/computers?ref=w_gh_cp_5 That offer is for 24 hours! Woot is now an Amazon company; free shipping if you log in with Amazon Prime, otherwise, the shipping is $6 Amazon sells filament for them. Ender3 is apparently open source design, manufactured by numerous companies, some with enhancements. Can operate stand-alone from STL files on Micro-SD card. Assembly required. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Thanks Jay, I think this means I?m starting to seriously consider a printer. :-( > > Zane > > > > >> On Dec 17, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> >> Typically the files on Thingiverse are .STL format, which is portable 3D >> model. One feeds it into a slicer program (there are several to choose >> from) to produce GCode that uses the specifications of one's particular >> printer so that the right GCode gets spit out. >> >> On 12/17/2018 3:26 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> Are the files ?platform independent?? I know very little about 3D printing, but have been tempted to get a printer for a while now. Though I?m worried about what my kids wanting to use it. :-) >>> >>> Zane > > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 234-3397 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 00:11:05 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 22:11:05 -0800 Subject: ISO: AT&T 630 MTG Terminal Keyboard Message-ID: Hey All -- Picked up a nice AT&T 630 MTG terminal, sans keyboard as so many terminals are these days. Curious if anyone out there might have one available. You can see a picture of one here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/630_mtg/630_MTG_Brochure_1987.pdf. I believe the part number to be 33401 or 33538). It's a fairly distinctive keyboard in that the arrow keys are arranged in a "plus" pattern. Thanks in advance! Josh From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Dec 19 02:49:41 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 03:49:41 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> References: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only.. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 Jason Howe via cctalk wrote: Indeed. Just this year, we pulled our Pentium Pro box off our museum shelf and did a fresh install of NT4 for a faculty member and their scientific instrument. --Jason On 12/18/18 5:48 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On Dec 18, 2018, at 2:51 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> I would take a guess for custom hardware or software that never migrated to Windows 13 or USB IIV. Ben. > Being a photographer, I know there is a real market for this. Many high-end scanners will only work with older Macintosh or Windows systems. I have a scanner that originally cost $10,000, and the only software for it runs on Windows XP (thankfully I can use Parallels Desktop to run XP and use it). Other, even more expensive scanners require even older software that requires physical systems. I also have some pretty high-end Macintosh A/V HW & SW that won?t run on newer systems. > > I?m sure there is plenty of lab type equipment in this category as well. > > Zane > > > > > From microtechdart at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 03:46:43 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 01:46:43 -0800 Subject: TSC Assembler? Message-ID: Hi, all. Would anyone here happen to have access to the original early 80s binary files to to run TSC Assembler? http://bit.ly/2rLsORe I'm looking for the vintage software that this document refers to: TSC Floating Point Package by Technical Systems Consultants. I know there's a fair number of more modern assemblers that will accomplish essentially the same thing (LWASM, A09, etc), but I was curious to see, and play with, the old-school version of this on one of my vintage machines... Thanks, everyone! AJ -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 04:31:47 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:31:47 +0100 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 at 22:08, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for 8086/88, 286, and 386 computers? What are folks using them for? Judging from the FB "Vintage" Computer Club, yes, a small one. For millennial-age geeks, pre-32-bit computers are antiques. They _might_ just barely remember back to Win9x. So for them, a DOS machine is a voyage of discovery into some of the more arcane pages of history. The idea of computers or OSes that can't boot from CD blows minds. For them, only elderly historical kit has 3?" floppy drives. So yes, there is a little bit of demand, I reckon. Not highly commercial, though. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 04:57:57 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:57:57 +0100 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 at 22:42, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I think PS/2s range from 286 - (very few) Pentium. I don't /think/ > there were any 8086 / 8088 PS/2s, but I could be mistaken. As "system_glitch" said, there were. The original model 30 was an 8086, and not even a great one -- it didn't have true VGA, for instance. http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/7492.htm It was also available in a small-form-factor all-in-one case as the Model 25: http://www.ibmfiles.com/pages/ps2model25.htm http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=1183 Easily mistaken for a PS/1. That got me a lot of abuse on Twitter recently. Then there was the Model 30-286, a sort of mucked-about PC-AT. http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/2585/IBM-PS-2-Model-30-286/ And from our own Tezza: https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/ps2-286-30.htm They're sort of not "real" PS/2s because they have the AT bus, not MicroChannel. I think the 30-286 could run OS/2 though. The same case (or very nearly) was reused for the Model 55SX. I actually have one of these. https://ancientelectronics.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/ibm-ps2-model-55sx/ It's a "true" PS/2 with MCA. I hope to get an old version of OS/2 2 or 3 going on mine some time. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Dec 19 05:09:34 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:09:34 +0100 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <20181219110934.GA24086@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 12:03:56AM -0500, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I repaired a Spectrometer for Morgan University in Baltimore that had a > vintage computer at its heart, used for training purposes and perfectly good. > The computer just needed some TLC to get it back up and running. I think it > was a P-II as well, there was a control card that would only work with the > pre-PCI bus For what it's worth, PCI-to-ISA adaptors exist. Virtualisation will let you emulate all of the other legacy devices which tend to be expected by OSs of that era but which now do not exist on modern machines. Unless the software is really weird and relies on something weird like undocumented side-effects of the 286 CPU or 8 bit ISA DMA[0], this may be a way forwards to keeping it running when that crusty old Pentium finally croaks. [0] So forget trying to bodge a floppy controller onto a modern PC this way. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 05:43:57 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:43:57 -0500 Subject: TSC Assembler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 4:46 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk Hi, all. > > Would anyone here happen to have access to the original early 80s binary > files to to run TSC Assembler? > > http://bit.ly/2rLsORe > > I'm looking for the vintage software that this document refers to: TSC > Floating Point Package by Technical Systems Consultants. > > I know there's a fair number of more modern assemblers that will accomplish > essentially the same thing (LWASM, A09, etc), but I was curious to see, and > play with, the old-school version of this on one of my vintage machines... > > Thanks, everyone! > AJ > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > AJ .. I did not read the code to determine for myself but what is the processor / instruction set that goes with the TSC assembler, 6800? I once hand punched the entire TSC BASIC to a papertape so it could be read into an Altair 680 via Teletype. Given the date on the assembler, and their BASIC, it is very possible that at that time TSC sold an assembler for the 6800 then. It should not take long to determine what instruction set your TSC doc pertains to. I might have it in cassette for the Altair but I am kind of busy to archive it unless no one has it otherwise. Busy time of the year. Bill > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Dec 19 05:50:21 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:50:21 +0100 (CET) Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <20181219110934.GA24086@mooli.org.uk> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <20181219110934.GA24086@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Peter Corlett wrote: > For what it's worth, PCI-to-ISA adaptors exist. Virtualisation will let you Really? Show me one that is 1) in current production, 2) offers the full ISA bus (not just some decoded address lines and 8 data lines), 3) plugs into a PCI slot. Christian From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Dec 19 05:51:34 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:51:34 +0100 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> Message-ID: <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 11:31:47AM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: [...] > For millennial-age geeks, pre-32-bit computers are antiques. They _might_ > just barely remember back to Win9x. So for them, a DOS machine is a voyage of > discovery into some of the more arcane pages of history. The idea of > computers or OSes that can't boot from CD blows minds. For them, only elderly > historical kit has 3?" floppy drives. Realistically, computers made before around 2010 *are* antiques: something where the main value is due to its age rather than its utility. The lack of intimate knowledge of machines from before one was born is not surprising. You only learn it to that depth if it was current kit in your youth. So us GenXers know rather more about 1980s Sinclair and Acorn machines than is healthy, and earlier kit is a orange-and-wood-grain mystery. > So yes, there is a little bit of demand, I reckon. Not highly commercial, > though. It's a nostalgia market, and the stuff that's peaking is when those who are starting to hit their mid-life crisis are getting nostalgic for the stuff of their youth. That's now the 1995-2005 era, and 16 and 32 bit consoles are flying off the shelves. There's a shop opposite Amsterdam Centraal station which is packed to the rafters with second-hand games for 16 bit consoles, and quite a few mail-order dealers dotted around villages here in the Noord-Holland peninsula. Are you feeling old yet? From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Dec 19 06:01:50 2018 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:01:50 +0000 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 at 11:51, Peter Corlett via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Realistically, computers made before around 2010 *are* antiques: something > where the main value is due to its age rather than its utility. > > I worked with "technicians" at HP 10 years ago who couldn't cope with DOS. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Dec 19 06:04:43 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:04:43 +0100 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <20181219110934.GA24086@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20181219120443.GC24086@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 12:50:21PM +0100, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Peter Corlett wrote: >> For what it's worth, PCI-to-ISA adaptors exist. Virtualisation will let you > Really? Show me one that is 1) in current production, 2) offers the full ISA > bus (not just some decoded address lines and 8 data lines), 3) plugs into a > PCI slot. In the bit you edited out, I already noted that stuff like ISA DMA won't work. But here you go: http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?206103 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 06:14:59 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:14:59 +0100 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 at 12:51, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > Realistically, computers made before around 2010 *are* antiques: something > where the main value is due to its age rather than its utility. Mostly, yup. When my laptop gave me some problems, start of 2017, I fired up my old ~3GHz Core 2 Extreme box, my one-time Hackintosh, maxed out with 8GB of RAM and a quick-ish 1TB hard disk. I installed Win10 and got it fully updated. It took 25min to open the Word document I was working on. Nearly half an hour. OK, yes, a nearly 1GB Word doc, but *still*. So I bought a newer laptop, a used Thinkpad X220, for ?150. It opened the doc in about 3min. There has been quite a lot of progress, and even a high-end decade-old PC is very low-end now, whatever the specs suggest. OTOH, it does have a floppy drive, which is why I keep it around. > The lack of intimate knowledge of machines from before one was born is not > surprising. You only learn it to that depth if it was current kit in your > youth. So us GenXers know rather more about 1980s Sinclair and Acorn machines > than is healthy, and earlier kit is a orange-and-wood-grain mystery. Absolutely. No disagreement there at all. But because the kit is mysterious to them, they're willing to spend money to get it and explore it. Same as people are now actively seeking late-era fast 486s and early Pentium-era boxes, for Win9x gaming. A lot of games didn't make the transition to the NT-based Windows era, and for them, period kit is the best way to play them. I personally think it's barking but then I am not much of a gamer. > Are you feeling old yet? Nah, I'm used to it. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Dec 19 06:18:51 2018 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:18:51 +0100 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <81eb9059e339bc6ecf60f0af59bbc79bb6518065.camel@agj.net> tis 2018-12-18 klockan 14:41 -0700 skrev Grant Taylor via cctalk: > On 12/18/2018 02:08 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for 8086/88, 286, and > > 386 computers? What are folks using them for? > > I know that there is an active IBM PS/2 collectors community that > would > be happy with anything in that range. > > I think PS/2s range from 286 - (very few) Pentium. I don't /think/ > there were any 8086 / 8088 PS/2s, but I could be mistaken. > The PS/2 collectors ... any internet foras for them ? I do have PS/2 55Sx (which i do intend to run aix and os/2 on.) Which version of NT is current with an HP Netserver LCII ? From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 06:35:22 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 07:35:22 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: > > Absolutely. No disagreement there at all. > > But because the kit is mysterious to them, they're willing to spend > money to get it and explore it. > > Same as people are now actively seeking late-era fast 486s and early > Pentium-era boxes, for Win9x gaming. A lot of games didn't make the > transition to the NT-based Windows era, and for them, period kit is > the best way to play them. > > I personally think it's barking but then I am not much of a gamer. > > > Are you feeling old yet? > > Nah, I'm used to it. > -- > 486 / early pentium computers have their own support challenges, both hardware and software. The skills differ from the XT era PC clones and such. This is definitely a vintage era of it's own, I call the GUI era to differentiate it from the WWW era that followed it. The broader GUI vintage includes all Windows/MAC, Amiga, NeXT, SGI desktops made for home use, desktop publishing, mouse-driven applications, LAN comms, and before widespread Internet communications. The GUI era would have its origins in the 70's but it's heyday would be 1985-95. To that end, there are some tough to find GUI era items that were trash 10 years ago that get a lot of $$ on Ebay now. Color adapter for NeXT, certain Soundblaster cards for thr 486 PC, first gen Pentium 60/66 machines, Working / complete and functioning Novell network demos, BE boxes, MAC Ivory systems, etc. Bill > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 06:40:56 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:40:56 +0100 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 at 13:35, Bill Degnan wrote: > > 486 / early pentium computers have their own support challenges, both hardware and software. The skills differ from the XT era PC clones and such. Yup. > This is definitely a vintage era of it's own, I call the GUI era to differentiate it from the WWW era that followed it. I like that distinction. > The broader GUI vintage includes all Windows/MAC, Amiga, NeXT, SGI desktops made for home use, Whoah whoah whoah, what? SGI made home computers?! > desktop publishing, mouse-driven applications, LAN comms, and before widespread Internet communications. The GUI era would have its origins in the 70's but it's heyday would be 1985-95. Yep, sounds about right. > To that end, there are some tough to find GUI era items that were trash 10 years ago that get a lot of $$ on Ebay now. Color adapter for NeXT, certain Soundblaster cards for thr 486 PC, first gen Pentium 60/66 machines, Working / complete and functioning Novell network demos, BE boxes, MAC Ivory systems, etc. Yes indeed. I recycled stuff in 2014 when I was leaving the country that's now sellable -- and I did sell everything I possibly could. 5?" HD floppy drives -- if Fred will spare me, PC-AT style 1.2 MB drives -- fetched $30--$40 each, and I had at least half a dozen of 'em. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Dec 19 06:47:05 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 07:47:05 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> Message-ID: On 2018-12-18 16:08, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On Dec 18, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for 8086/88, 286, and 386 computers? What are folks using them for? There were some nice '386 and '486 machines out there. I actually got my first original 5160 few weeks ago. Like to use it for my stupid PAL/GAL programmer, which simply don't work with anything but DOS And still few GPIB, SCSI, etc card which can be used on them ... So, would still be interested in '386, '486, when nice ones show up (preferably DEC, that's what I'm collecting) So, actually not really for collecting, but maintaining collection ;-) Cheers From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 06:53:17 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:53:17 -0600 Subject: TSC Assembler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, Check out this website - he has lots of TSC and other 6800 software for the SWTPC and an emulator. http://www.evenson-consulting.com/swtpc/fufu_downloads.htm Monty McGraw (Tektronix 4052 and working 4054A computers) On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 5:44 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 4:46 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > wrote: > > > Hi, all. > > > > Would anyone here happen to have access to the original early 80s binary > > files to to run TSC Assembler? > > > > http://bit.ly/2rLsORe > > > > I'm looking for the vintage software that this document refers to: TSC > > Floating Point Package by Technical Systems Consultants. > > > > I know there's a fair number of more modern assemblers that will > accomplish > > essentially the same thing (LWASM, A09, etc), but I was curious to see, > and > > play with, the old-school version of this on one of my vintage > machines... > > > > Thanks, everyone! > > AJ > > > > -- > > > > Thanks, > > AJ Palmgren > > > > AJ .. I did not read the code to determine for myself but what is the > processor / instruction set that goes with the TSC assembler, 6800? I once > hand punched the entire TSC BASIC to a papertape so it could be read into > an Altair 680 via Teletype. Given the date on the assembler, and their > BASIC, it is very possible that at that time TSC sold an assembler for the > 6800 then. It should not take long to determine what instruction set your > TSC doc pertains to. I might have it in cassette for the Altair but I am > kind of busy to archive it unless no one has it otherwise. Busy time of > the year. > > Bill > > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 07:08:31 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:08:31 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: > > > > > > The broader GUI vintage includes all Windows/MAC, Amiga, NeXT, SGI > desktops made for home use, > > >Whoah whoah whoah, what? > > >SGI made home computers?! > I knew people who had them at home, but expand my distinction into the home business desktop publishing people. Most people did not have an SGI or NeXT at home, unless they had a business reason or got them after they were surplussed from their workplace. I was once offered the Xerox 386 workstation from my work, in 1995. It was only about 7 years old when my work was going to chuck it as obsolete. I was the only person who knew how to use it so they were just going to give it to me. As butt head I turned them down, at the time I did not want it. Nice GUI system with optical mouse and Page Maker software. Bill From sales at elecplus.com Wed Dec 19 08:54:08 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:54:08 -0600 Subject: Old HP stuff Message-ID: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Thanks for all the replies! Based on the responses I got, this is the specific request list that I just emailed him: anything HP 1000 related is interesting. HP 2100, HP 21MX 2113 2117, A-Series A400 A600 A700 A900 A990, etc. are all 21MX/2100-series: HP 12908A Writable Control Store Interface Kit (PCA 12908-60002) HP 12908B Writable Control Store Interface Kit (PCA 12908-60006) HP 12908-60003 Jumper Board Assembly HP 12908-60005 Backplane Jumper Assembly HP 12908-60008 Jumper Board Assembly HP 12978A Writable Control Store (PCA 12978-60006) HP 12978-60006 Jumper Cable Assembly HP 02100-60018 Cable Assembly (need two!) HP 02100-60052 Connector Assembly an HP HIL mouse (so not PS/2), preferably 3-button HP apollo 735/125 power supply part # 0950-2081 (Astec). It comes from a workstation, A2608A or A2841A HP 9000, whether it's the /200, /300, /400, /700, or /800 series The prices I see for this equipment online are stiff! May I assume (and yes, I know what that spells) that you guys are looking for machines in the sub $200 class, not $2000 like some sites have posted? Equipment from the recycler is so much cheaper, but strictly as-is. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 19 09:05:49 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 07:05:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3D printer $179.99 (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > If you are seriously considering getting one, consider: > https://www.woot.com/category/computers?ref=w_gh_cp_5 > That offer is for 24 hours! > Just be aware that you get what you pay for. If anyone here would like to get into 3D printing, I'd recommend one of two different printers: If you want a boring "cartesian", get a genuine Prusa i3 Mk3 from Prusa Research. If however, you want an amazing, fast, and sexy machine, get a Rostock MAX v3.2 or an Artemis 300 from SeeMeCNC. It's a "delta" configuration machine. Women will want you, men will want to BE you. (or vice versa, YMMV) ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 09:13:05 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:13:05 -0400 Subject: Old HP stuff In-Reply-To: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: <4cbcb3cd-a037-8f77-c795-3b6c662b553b@gmail.com> I would add any of the earlier HP 9810 9815 9820 9825 9830 9831 9835 9845 to that list. Paul. On 2018-12-19 10:54 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for all the replies! Based on the responses I got, this is the > specific request list that I just emailed him: > > > > anything HP 1000 related is interesting. HP 2100, HP 21MX 2113 2117, > A-Series A400 A600 A700 A900 A990, etc. > > > > are all 21MX/2100-series: > > HP 12908A Writable Control Store Interface Kit (PCA 12908-60002) HP 12908B > Writable Control Store Interface Kit (PCA 12908-60006) HP 12908-60003 Jumper > Board Assembly HP 12908-60005 Backplane Jumper Assembly HP 12908-60008 > Jumper Board Assembly > > HP 12978A Writable Control Store (PCA 12978-60006) HP 12978-60006 Jumper > Cable Assembly > > HP 02100-60018 Cable Assembly (need two!) HP 02100-60052 Connector Assembly > > > > an HP HIL mouse (so not PS/2), preferably 3-button > > > > HP apollo 735/125 power supply part # 0950-2081 (Astec). It comes from a > workstation, A2608A or A2841A > > > > HP 9000, whether it's the /200, /300, /400, /700, or /800 series > > > > The prices I see for this equipment online are stiff! May I assume (and yes, > I know what that spells) that you guys are looking for machines in the sub > $200 class, not $2000 like some sites have posted? Equipment from the > recycler is so much cheaper, but strictly as-is. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 19 09:20:16 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 07:20:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > So yes, there is a little bit of demand, I reckon. Not highly > commercial, though. > There's enough of a market to support folks building replicas of the Adlib sound card. I've seen evidence of a Sound Blaster 1.0 replica - I think they called it the "Snood Bloober 1.0". (I was right, here's a pic of it, with a bonus Windows 95 memorial decal in the background: https://twitter.com/foone/status/1056716740191604737?lang=en ) There's also Jonathan's XT-IDE card for adding "modern" mass storage to PC/XT class machines. If you dig into it, there's a little cottage industry for these little life-extending upgrades for old machines. It's kind of like the computer industry making a full circle - people started companies building add-ons in their kitchens in the 70's and 80's and now it's coming back to that way again. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan at 757.org Wed Dec 19 09:41:58 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:41:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <20181219110934.GA24086@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: > Really? Show me one that is 1) in current production, 2) offers the full ISA > bus (not just some decoded address lines and 8 data lines), 3) plugs into a > PCI slot. > Christian Surprised no one has used something like an ATMega or cheap USB connected ARM to build a USB to ISA adapter with tie in to DOSBox or some other emulator. -- : Ethan O'Toole From wpointon at earthlink.net Wed Dec 19 10:05:49 2018 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (xcvb) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:05:49 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: More old stuff incoming Message-ID: <1022990272.2683.1545235549249@wamui-moana.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- >From: Liam Proven via cctalk >Sent: Dec 19, 2018 5:57 AM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: Re: More old stuff incoming > >On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 at 22:42, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I think PS/2s range from 286 - (very few) Pentium. I don't /think/ >> there were any 8086 / 8088 PS/2s, but I could be mistaken. > >As "system_glitch" said, there were. > >The original model 30 was an 8086, and not even a great one -- it >didn't have true VGA, for instance. > >http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/7492.htm > >It was also available in a small-form-factor all-in-one case as the Model 25: > >http://www.ibmfiles.com/pages/ps2model25.htm > >http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=1183 > >Easily mistaken for a PS/1. That got me a lot of abuse on Twitter recently. > >Then there was the Model 30-286, a sort of mucked-about PC-AT. > >http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/2585/IBM-PS-2-Model-30-286/ > >And from our own Tezza: > >https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/ps2-286-30.htm > >They're sort of not "real" PS/2s because they have the AT bus, not >MicroChannel. I think the 30-286 could run OS/2 though. > >The same case (or very nearly) was reused for the Model 55SX. I >actually have one of these. > >https://ancientelectronics.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/ibm-ps2-model-55sx/ > >It's a "true" PS/2 with MCA. I hope to get an old version of OS/2 2 or >3 going on mine some time. > >-- >Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven >Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com >Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven >UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 Tho ive seldom posted but have always read this list i cannot resist - somewhere stored away in my piles of stuff I have an IBM Model 30 I believe that has an 8 bit isa bus and an 80186 cpu. - thanks - billp From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Dec 19 10:13:52 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:13:52 -0500 Subject: 3D printer $179.99 (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> On 2018-12-19 10:05, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> If you are seriously considering getting one, consider: >> https://www.woot.com/category/computers?ref=w_gh_cp_5 >> That offer is for 24 hours! >> > > Just be aware that you get what you pay for.? If anyone here would like > to get into 3D printing, I'd recommend one of two different printers: That's the one you recommended for my microfiche scanning ;-) They just lowered the price ... From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Dec 19 10:15:41 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:15:41 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> References: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> > On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:49 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only.. With old scanners, always look at what the I/O interface is, and see if it?s a model of scanner supported by VueScan. VueScan is *amazing* and produces results that are about as good as SilverFast with my Epson V850 Pro. It also keeps some vintage scanners around here running. Zane From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 19 10:27:15 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:27:15 -0600 Subject: Old HP stuff In-Reply-To: <4cbcb3cd-a037-8f77-c795-3b6c662b553b@gmail.com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <4cbcb3cd-a037-8f77-c795-3b6c662b553b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002d01d497b7$b4446ea0$1ccd4be0$@classiccmp.org> I could probably use one more period-correct HP rack if someone has one they need to go away. The HP mint gray ones, not the more modern beige/cream/white. J From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 19 10:32:20 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:32:20 -0500 Subject: Old HP stuff In-Reply-To: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: <826fdc36-2550-7db5-4ec4-0e64b9bbb4d5@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-12-19 9:54 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for all the replies! Based on the responses I got, this is the > specific request list that I just emailed him: > ... > I'd add: HIL *cables* of either the instrument or keyboard/mouse connector format. Also HP HIL ID boxes for hacking purposes. > > The prices I see for this equipment online are stiff! May I assume (and yes, > I know what that spells) that you guys are looking for machines in the sub > $200 class, not $2000 like some sites have posted? Equipment from the > recycler is so much cheaper, but strictly as-is. Definitely on a hobbyist (= recycler) budget here. --Toby > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Dec 19 10:33:03 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:33:03 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: > On Dec 19, 2018, at 3:51 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > It's a nostalgia market, and the stuff that's peaking is when those who are > starting to hit their mid-life crisis are getting nostalgic for the stuff of > their youth. That's now the 1995-2005 era, and 16 and 32 bit consoles are > flying off the shelves. There's a shop opposite Amsterdam Centraal station > which is packed to the rafters with second-hand games for 16 bit consoles, and > quite a few mail-order dealers dotted around villages here in the Noord-Holland > peninsula. > > Are you feeling old yet? The ?Retro? gaming market is booming, with plenty of new hardware and games! I have numerous Atari 2600 cartridges released in the last couple years (some as recent as a couple months ago). There is a market for new games for consoles up to the 16-bit era, and even a few that are 32-bit. Some of these games are better than those originally released. Then there are places like GOG.com, selling virtualized copies of old PC games (I love being able to easily play Master of Orion on my Mac). From what I see locally any vintage Game Console does really well, in part because with one or two exceptions, no floppies are involved. Certain vintage consoles and certain game command big $$$?s. My wife and all my kids are into Retro gaming. I like Retro games because I have slightly less than zero time to play games. So when I have 5 minutes to spare, I can turn on the Atari 2600 and play a couple games of something. I have to wonder how many others are into Retro gaming due to the time commitments required by modern games. Zane From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 10:34:32 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:34:32 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> References: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: FYI The PS/2 Model 30 (8530) is a 80C86 CPU. Same as the Model 25 (8525). b From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 19 10:35:05 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:35:05 -0600 Subject: Off-Topic : RE: 3D printer $179.99 (Was: 8-Update Message-ID: <002e01d497b8$cc4aae50$64e00af0$@classiccmp.org> Fred wrote.... >> If you are seriously considering getting one, consider: >> https://www.woot.com/category/computers?ref=w_gh_cp_5 >> That offer is for 24 hours! I've had dual time-sinks the past year, a 3d printer and a high end drone :) The 3d printer I got was the creality ender 3 that is mentioned above. First, you will not find a bad review for it, all the reviews are glowing. Most reviews also say it's print quality and print-features are on-par with $1000+ printers. That is correct, and I paid $175 for mine. I love it. That being said, the ender 3 has some design deficiencies. If you buy one, plan on spending maybe $50 to $100 on upgraded options right off the bat. Once you do that - it is a better printer than many of the big names people will likely recommend. If you are wanting to get a printer and start producing production quality parts right out of the box, the ender 3 is not for you. If you are willing to tinker and upgrade just a tiny bit... you'll be really happy. J From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Wed Dec 19 10:36:41 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:36:41 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <4ed98a60-fd56-bccf-abf2-bae24fdbeeff@comcast.net> I too have an old spectrometer that requires a PC with an ISA slot, [Bomem MB series] and the interface card is ISA form.? It has been a challenge to find old PC's with an ISA slot, most are recycled for scrap.? The ones I have came from thrift stores, but now the thrift stores are reluctant to carry old PC's.? No one wants them except a few people with specific hardware/software requirements. I also use an old PC that still has the ability to run both 3.5 and 5.25 inch floppies for transferring data to Vax/PDP-11 machines using PUTR.? The 5.25 inch floppy was dropped from most late model PC's, the controller chip wouldn't support it. Doug On 12/19/2018 12:03 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I repaired a Spectrometer for Morgan University in Baltimore that had a > vintage computer at its heart, used for training purposes and perfectly > good. The computer just needed some TLC to get it back up and running. I > think it was a P-II as well, there was a control card that would only work > with the pre-PCI bus > b > > On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 11:54 PM Jason Howe via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Indeed. >> >> Just this year, we pulled our Pentium Pro box off our museum shelf and >> did a fresh install of NT4 for a faculty member and their scientific >> instrument. >> >> --Jason >> >> >> >> On 12/18/18 5:48 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 2:51 PM, ben via cctalk >> wrote: >>>> I would take a guess for custom hardware or software that never >> migrated to Windows 13 or USB IIV. Ben. >>> Being a photographer, I know there is a real market for this. Many >> high-end scanners will only work with older Macintosh or Windows systems. >> I have a scanner that originally cost $10,000, and the only software for it >> runs on Windows XP (thankfully I can use Parallels Desktop to run XP and >> use it). Other, even more expensive scanners require even older software >> that requires physical systems. I also have some pretty high-end Macintosh >> A/V HW & SW that won?t run on newer systems. >>> I?m sure there is plenty of lab type equipment in this category as well. >>> >>> Zane >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 19 10:51:17 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:51:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3D printer $179.99 (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-12-19 10:05, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 18 Dec 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >>> If you are seriously considering getting one, consider: >>> https://www.woot.com/category/computers?ref=w_gh_cp_5 >>> That offer is for 24 hours! >>> >> >> Just be aware that you get what you pay for.? If anyone here would like >> to get into 3D printing, I'd recommend one of two different printers: > > That's the one you recommended for my microfiche scanning ;-) > They just lowered the price ... For what you're going to use it for, that's a good choice. I wouldn't recommend it as a printer though. ;) (The design isn't bad, but it's not a very newbie-friendly printer.) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Dec 19 10:58:15 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:58:15 -0500 Subject: Off-Topic : RE: 3D printer $179.99 (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <002e01d497b8$cc4aae50$64e00af0$@classiccmp.org> References: <002e01d497b8$cc4aae50$64e00af0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5da42168-4d43-7277-4387-14a8953364d3@e-bbes.com> On 2018-12-19 11:35, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > The 3d printer I got was the creality ender 3 that is mentioned above. First, you will not find a bad review for it, all the reviews are glowing. Most reviews also say it's print quality and print-features are on-par with $1000+ printers. That is correct, and I paid $175 for mine. I love it. That being said, the ender 3 has some design deficiencies. If you buy one, plan on spending maybe $50 to $100 on upgraded options right off the bat. Once you do that - it is a better printer than many of the big names people will likely recommend. So, would you share which upgrades you made? From bbrown314 at comcast.net Wed Dec 19 11:12:43 2018 From: bbrown314 at comcast.net (Comcast) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:12:43 -0600 Subject: Off-Topic : RE: 3D printer $179.99 (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <5da42168-4d43-7277-4387-14a8953364d3@e-bbes.com> References: <002e01d497b8$cc4aae50$64e00af0$@classiccmp.org> <5da42168-4d43-7277-4387-14a8953364d3@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <6E1AE5FF-FDA4-47E8-B27A-3A934BC937E7@comcast.net> Also what drone did you buy? -Bob > On Dec 19, 2018, at 10:58 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > >> On 2018-12-19 11:35, Jay West via cctalk wrote: >> >> The 3d printer I got was the creality ender 3 that is mentioned above. First, you will not find a bad review for it, all the reviews are glowing. Most reviews also say it's print quality and print-features are on-par with $1000+ printers. That is correct, and I paid $175 for mine. I love it. That being said, the ender 3 has some design deficiencies. If you buy one, plan on spending maybe $50 to $100 on upgraded options right off the bat. Once you do that - it is a better printer than many of the big names people will likely recommend. > > So, would you share which upgrades you made? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 19 11:18:07 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 09:18:07 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <20181219110934.GA24086@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <891d4c61-ed3e-e5ee-eb8e-4b97579f301e@sydex.com> On 12/19/18 7:41 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: >> Really? Show me one that is 1) in current production, 2) offers the >> full ISA bus (not just some decoded address lines and 8 data lines), >> 3) plugs into a PCI slot. >> Christian > > Surprised no one has used something like an ATMega or cheap USB > connected ARM to build a USB to ISA adapter with tie in to DOSBox or > some other emulator. > For what it's worth, I've never seen an ISA to USB or ISA to PCI "bridge" implementation that was fully functional--and that includes P4 and later motherboards using a bridge chip. I've been round the block with a couple of motherboard vendors. Some leave out legacy DMA support; others are so incomplete that the legacy drivers don't even see the ISA card in question or that the memory space isn't accurately mapped. Using an ATMega to access a 16-bit ISA board with full DMA, interrupt and local ROM seems to be a bit beyond the MCU's capabilities. I'll be happy to be proved wrong. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 19 11:19:04 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:19:04 -0600 Subject: 3D printer $179.99 (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <000001d497be$f1045380$d30cfa80$@classiccmp.org> Gene wrote... For what you're going to use it for, that's a good choice. I wouldn't recommend it as a printer though. ;) (The design isn't bad, but it's not a very newbie-friendly printer.) ------------- Gene, you're just sore that the $175 ender 3 is comparable to a Prusa i3 Mk3 that costs $800 (those words are from the all3dp.com reviews, not me) ;) Actually, I think you're spot on when you say it's not newbie-friendly because it requires some tinkering once it's out of the box to get great results. Another side of that is that perhaps it's the newbies that really SHOULD spend the time tinkering to get it right, so they understand what to do when their other 3d printers go awry. I suspect most of the people here are the tinkering type ;) Actually I misspoke when I said the ender 3 has design flaws. All of its flaws are in the execution of manufacturing, not in the design itself. Replace the extruder with an all-metal one instead of plastic (the plastic one cracked in a few weeks for me, so filament slippage) - cost is about $15. Drop in a borosilicate glass bed, so you can get better adhesion than the stock pad, easier removal, as well as more flexible choice of filament materials - that's about $20. Replace the z-axis rod coupler with one that actually doesn't slip - cost about $5. And while not necessary, it makes it a lot easier to get good parts if you add an automatic bed leveler - $70 (for the th3d one). J From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Dec 19 11:23:19 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:23:19 +0000 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> References: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 12/19/18 11:15 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:49 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> >> I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only.. > > With old scanners, always look at what the I/O interface is, and see if it?s a model of scanner supported by VueScan. VueScan is *amazing* and produces results that are about as good as SilverFast with my Epson V850 Pro. It also keeps some vintage scanners around here running. > I still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department I used to work at. An HP with a SCSI interface. Works great, supported by SANE. bill From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 19 11:23:17 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:23:17 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <1022990272.2683.1545235549249@wamui-moana.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1022990272.2683.1545235549249@wamui-moana.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <46677efc-8889-4129-24af-603ed9ecdd02@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/19/2018 09:05 AM, xcvb via cctalk wrote: > Tho ive seldom posted but have always read this list i cannot resist - > somewhere stored away in my piles of stuff I have an IBM Model 30 I > believe that has an 8 bit isa bus and an 80186 cpu. I am somewhat surprised to learn that any commercially available general purpose computer had an 8186 CPU. I've only seen it in purpose built equipment. The last one I saw was in a mobile X-Ray or CT machine in the late '90s. I would love some confirmation on the CPU. (I'll look it up in a bit.) That would mean that IBM PS/2s had every major class of x86 CPU between the 8086 (or was it 8088, which is still in the 8x86 family) and the Pentium. IMHO that's impressive. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From sales at elecplus.com Wed Dec 19 11:26:45 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:26:45 -0600 Subject: Retarded ebay prices Message-ID: <02c601d497c0$045d10b0$0d173210$@com> https://www.ebay.fr/itm/HP-250-Hewlett-Packard-Workstation-mit-optionaler-Ha rddisk-7910-SAMMLERQUALITAT/173303250279?hash=item2859adbd67:g:7r8AAOSw0dha7 dD8:rk:49:pf:0 Nice item, but crazy price! Located in Germany, only ships to the EU. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Wed Dec 19 11:33:34 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:33:34 -0600 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <46677efc-8889-4129-24af-603ed9ecdd02@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1022990272.2683.1545235549249@wamui-moana.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <46677efc-8889-4129-24af-603ed9ecdd02@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <02ec01d497c0$f7df0450$e79d0cf0$@com> There was a Tandy with an 80186, but I don't recall the model number. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 11:23 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: More old stuff incoming On 12/19/2018 09:05 AM, xcvb via cctalk wrote: > Tho ive seldom posted but have always read this list i cannot resist - > somewhere stored away in my piles of stuff I have an IBM Model 30 I > believe that has an 8 bit isa bus and an 80186 cpu. I am somewhat surprised to learn that any commercially available general purpose computer had an 8186 CPU. I've only seen it in purpose built equipment. The last one I saw was in a mobile X-Ray or CT machine in the late '90s. I would love some confirmation on the CPU. (I'll look it up in a bit.) That would mean that IBM PS/2s had every major class of x86 CPU between the 8086 (or was it 8088, which is still in the 8x86 family) and the Pentium. IMHO that's impressive. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Dec 19 11:40:54 2018 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:40:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <02ec01d497c0$f7df0450$e79d0cf0$@com> References: <1022990272.2683.1545235549249@wamui-moana.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <46677efc-8889-4129-24af-603ed9ecdd02@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <02ec01d497c0$f7df0450$e79d0cf0$@com> Message-ID: <470543650.158055.1545241254524@email.ionos.com> > On December 19, 2018 at 12:33 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > > There was a Tandy with an 80186, but I don't recall the model number. > Model 2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandy_2000 Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise." -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 19 11:42:22 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:42:22 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <3c2ecdfc-9702-f78d-88ad-55b3ac4fd0b1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/19/2018 03:57 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > The original model 30 was an 8086, and not even a great one -- it didn't > have true VGA, for instance. The original IBM PC / AT / XT didn't have VGA either. So that seems par for the generation of the processor. (At least as I understand / remember it.) > It was also available in a small-form-factor all-in-one case as the > Model 25: I always liked the PS/2 cases. Just about every one I've seen is tool less down to, and sometimes including, the system planar (as IBM called it). > Easily mistaken for a PS/1. That got me a lot of abuse on Twitter > recently. The only PS/1 that I've ever seen was a pizza box and had a folding door to cover the 5? bay. > They're sort of not "real" PS/2s because they have the AT bus, not > MicroChannel. I think the 30-286 could run OS/2 though. IMHO, it's a PS/2 if it has an IBM PS/2 badge. The PS/2 line covered a LOT of territory. > The same case (or very nearly) was reused for the Model 55SX. I actually > have one of these. I cut my teeth on a 55SX. I may reacquire one some day. > It's a "true" PS/2 with MCA. I hope to get an old version of OS/2 2 or > 3 going on mine some time. I know that I've run OS/2, OS/2 Warp, and Windows 95, all loaded off of floppy disks on my model 80 that I had at the time. I've also had NetWare on multiple of them. I want to try to get AIX 1.3 on the model 70 that I have now. I'm the masochist that will configure Token Ring for it. }:-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 19 11:43:26 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 09:43:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3D printer $179.99 (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <000001d497be$f1045380$d30cfa80$@classiccmp.org> References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> <000001d497be$f1045380$d30cfa80$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Gene wrote... For what you're going to use it for, that's a good choice. > I wouldn't recommend it as a printer though. ;) (The design isn't bad, > but it's not a very newbie-friendly printer.) >------------- > Gene, you're just sore that the $175 ender 3 is comparable to a Prusa i3 > Mk3 that costs $800 (those words are from the all3dp.com reviews, not > me) ;) Actually, I think you're spot on when you say it's not > newbie-friendly because it requires some tinkering once it's out of the > box to get great results. Another side of that is that perhaps it's the > newbies that really SHOULD spend the time tinkering to get it right, so > they understand what to do when their other 3d printers go awry. I > suspect most of the people here are the tinkering type ;) > I'm not sore at all. Out of the 12 printers I have, only one is a dirty little bed-flinger. ;) I recommended the original Prusa because it's a good design (for a dirty little bed flinger), it's a reasonably affordable choice if you can't join the Delta Hegemony, and it's newbie friendly. :) For Emmanuel's(sp?) case, the Ender 3 is a great choice because he's not going to print with it, he's just going to use it as a motion gantry for a CNC controlled microfiche imager. If I had the time (and a stack of fiche), I'd probably buy one for that purpose myself. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Dec 19 11:43:50 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:43:50 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <6f0df94a-517a-39df-69d2-d58ce6654a9f@e-bbes.com> On 2018-12-19 12:23, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department > I used to work at. An HP with a SCSI interface. Works great, > supported by SANE. I had an HP IIcx with ADF. (before I moved). Was great, scanned without paying attention to it. Yes, using SANE and some scripts. All what I was missing is tabloid size ... From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 19 11:44:15 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 09:44:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <02ec01d497c0$f7df0450$e79d0cf0$@com> References: <1022990272.2683.1545235549249@wamui-moana.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <46677efc-8889-4129-24af-603ed9ecdd02@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <02ec01d497c0$f7df0450$e79d0cf0$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > There was a Tandy with an 80186, but I don't recall the model number. > Tandy 2000. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 19 11:44:47 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:44:47 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <81eb9059e339bc6ecf60f0af59bbc79bb6518065.camel@agj.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <81eb9059e339bc6ecf60f0af59bbc79bb6518065.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <0f14913b-35ed-e849-6f57-8c9bfd54c9aa@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> > The PS/2 collectors ... any internet foras for them ? I know one, he hangs out on Vogons. Here's him talking about a haul of PS/2 stuff he got from me when I moved across country. https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=17341&start=8960#p445583 > I do have PS/2 55Sx (which i do intend to run aix and os/2 on.) "wall" for for interest in AIX. > Which version of NT is current with an HP Netserver LCII ? I'd have to look it up. I'd guess either 3.5 or 4.0. (Given that that covers most almost all of NT (by name)....) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 19 11:45:50 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:45:50 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <81eb9059e339bc6ecf60f0af59bbc79bb6518065.camel@agj.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <81eb9059e339bc6ecf60f0af59bbc79bb6518065.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: > The PS/2 collectors ... any internet foras for them ? I see quite a bit of activity in the comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware (and related) newsgroups. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 11:45:44 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 18:45:44 +0100 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <46677efc-8889-4129-24af-603ed9ecdd02@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1022990272.2683.1545235549249@wamui-moana.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <46677efc-8889-4129-24af-603ed9ecdd02@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 at 18:23, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/19/2018 09:05 AM, xcvb via cctalk wrote: > > Tho ive seldom posted but have always read this list i cannot resist - > > somewhere stored away in my piles of stuff I have an IBM Model 30 I > > believe that has an 8 bit isa bus and an 80186 cpu. > > I am somewhat surprised to learn that any commercially available general > purpose computer had an 8186 CPU. 80186? > I would love some confirmation on the CPU. (I'll look it up in a bit.) "xcvb" is wrong. It's an 8086. > I've only seen it in purpose built > equipment. The last one I saw was in a mobile X-Ray or CT machine in > the late '90s. The BBC Master had a '186: http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbccomputer/master512/index.html http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbccomputer/master512/tube.html http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Computers/Master512.html There was an RM Nimbus too. https://www.thenimbus.co.uk/range-of-nimbus-computers/PC-186 http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=1011&st=1 > That would mean that IBM PS/2s had every major class of x86 CPU between > the 8086 (or was it 8088, which is still in the 8x86 family) and the > Pentium. They didn't. 8088, 8086, 80286, 80386DX, then 80386SX, 80486, Pentium. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 19 11:47:58 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:47:58 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <20181219110934.GA24086@mooli.org.uk> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <20181219110934.GA24086@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <84129382-0e60-c3df-07ec-e2e85567a6b0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/19/2018 04:09 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > Unless the software is really weird and relies on something weird like > undocumented side-effects of the 286 CPU or 8 bit ISA DMA[0], this may > be a way forwards to keeping it running when that crusty old Pentium > finally croaks. I've run into more than a few things that aren't happy with emulation. I know AIX for PS/2 is looking for something at PS/2 specific memory addresses related to hardware. I've also had a number of problems with different hypervisors emulating different types of hardware that older OSs are happy (enough) with. Things like IDE / SCSI / sound / network controllers. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From carlojpisani at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 11:48:12 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 18:48:12 +0100 Subject: Retarded ebay prices In-Reply-To: <02c601d497c0$045d10b0$0d173210$@com> References: <02c601d497c0$045d10b0$0d173210$@com> Message-ID: hi I have - an EISA module for HP-715, yours for 5 Euro + S/H - HP-712 PSU, yours for 5 Euro + S/H - HPC36xx-C37xx 4GB ram (1Gbyte/module, 4 modules), yours for 20 Euro + S/H Il giorno mer 19 dic 2018 alle ore 18:26 Electronics Plus via cctalk ha scritto: > > https://www.ebay.fr/itm/HP-250-Hewlett-Packard-Workstation-mit-optionaler-Ha > rddisk-7910-SAMMLERQUALITAT/173303250279?hash=item2859adbd67:g:7r8AAOSw0dha7 > dD8:rk:49:pf:0 > > > > Nice item, but crazy price! Located in Germany, only ships to the EU. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Dec 19 11:49:33 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:49:33 +0000 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <6f0df94a-517a-39df-69d2-d58ce6654a9f@e-bbes.com> References: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> <6f0df94a-517a-39df-69d2-d58ce6654a9f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 12/19/18 12:43 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2018-12-19 12:23, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> I still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department >> I used to work at. An HP with a SCSI interface. Works great, >> supported by SANE. > > I had an HP IIcx with ADF. (before I moved). Was great, scanned without > paying attention to it. Yes, using SANE and some scripts. All what I was > missing is tabloid size ... > Pretty sure that's the one. Got stuff piled on it at the moment so I can't read the model number. bill From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 19 11:52:36 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:52:36 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <1022990272.2683.1545235549249@wamui-moana.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <46677efc-8889-4129-24af-603ed9ecdd02@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <736f8141-600f-8b9c-ab97-da639accff90@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/19/2018 10:45 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > 80186? I really thought it was 8x86 where the x was 0, 1, 2, 3, or 4. But looking at a picture of a CPU online I see that it was 8086, 80186, 80286, 80386, 80486. #TodayILearned.... > "xcvb" is wrong. It's an 8086. ACK > The BBC Master had a '186: > > There was an RM Nimbus too. > > They didn't. > > 8088, 8086, 80286, 80386DX, then 80386SX, 80486, Pentium. ACK I think IBM had some special things that were modifications. Supposedly my model 70 is a special 386 instruction set that has some hybrid CPU in it. I don't remember the specifics. IBM was fab'ing chips at the time and had licenses to Intel's IP. So they created a 386 that was somehow more than / different from a 386. Maybe it was a crippled 486 that only had the bus of the 386. I don't recall. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 19 11:56:33 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:56:33 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> Message-ID: <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/19/2018 08:20 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > There's enough of a market to support folks building replicas of the > Adlib sound card.? I've seen evidence of a Sound Blaster 1.0 replica - I > think they called it the "Snood Bloober 1.0". I've been following @foone's development of the Snood Bloober on Twitter. I may have to see about acquiring one for my old play PC. I tell my wife to think of the old PC(s) as my version of cars that some people mess with. They are smaller, often (but not always) cheaper, take up less space, and produce less noise or noxious fumes. - Usually. Cavite emptor. - Some of the people I follow that own mainframes are pushing the size of sub-compact cars. > There's also Jonathan's XT-IDE card for adding "modern" mass storage to > PC/XT class machines. > > If you dig into it, there's a little cottage industry for these little > life-extending upgrades for old machines.? It's kind of like the > computer industry making a full circle - people started companies > building add-ons in their kitchens in the 70's and 80's and now it's > coming back to that way again. Yep. I find this market extremely entertaining, encouraging, and fun to watch from the sidelines. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Dec 19 11:57:16 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:57:16 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <0f14913b-35ed-e849-6f57-8c9bfd54c9aa@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <167c79d543b-4154-bdd@webjas-vad018.srv.aolmail.net> Nice? ps2? sash..? ?We? have? some? examples here but there are? things in these photos? I have? never seen! ? One? thing we? have? I? am curious? ?about is a? large? ?oversize? IBM monitor monochrome? grey? screen ... ? I wonder? what it? was? used? for...? aside? for a bigger? word processing screen. ? ? Ed# ? ? ? ? In a message dated 12/19/2018 10:45:01 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > The PS/2 collectors ... any internet foras for them ? I know one, he hangs out on Vogons. Here's him talking about a haul of PS/2 stuff he got from me when I moved across country. https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=17341&start=8960#p445583 > I do have PS/2 55Sx (which i do intend to run aix and os/2 on.) "wall" for for interest in AIX. > Which version of NT is current with an HP Netserver LCII ? I'd have to look it up. I'd guess either 3.5 or 4.0. (Given that that covers most almost all of NT (by name)....) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Dec 19 12:13:38 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:13:38 -0800 Subject: Retarded ebay prices In-Reply-To: <02c601d497c0$045d10b0$0d173210$@com> References: <02c601d497c0$045d10b0$0d173210$@com> Message-ID: Is that a crazy price for something like that? The other ones that I have seen are in museums. Given what I got for my 11/750 in the condition that it was in a few years ago, the price on this doesn't seem bad to me. alan On 12/19/18 9:26 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.fr/itm/HP-250-Hewlett-Packard-Workstation-mit-optionaler-Ha > rddisk-7910-SAMMLERQUALITAT/173303250279?hash=item2859adbd67:g:7r8AAOSw0dha7 > dD8:rk:49:pf:0 > > > > Nice item, but crazy price! Located in Germany, only ships to the EU. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Dec 19 12:43:42 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:43:42 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <167c7c7d666-5fa3-c88@webjas-vab127.srv.aolmail.net> Zane -? ?thanks? for? reminder.? Yes? this? scanner? ? goes? scssi? to? a? large? cofax? processing? card that is? supposed? to? do? fast? working magic... but? die? to faster? ?PC and CPU? speeds? today? may not? be? really needed? or? will HANG! ? We? do? use the? vuscan? for? ?use? with a? hp scanner that? has a? 4x5? negative? scanner attachment on it.? ?It? will scan? ?35 mm? to? 4x5....? ?really? not? ?great resolution? for? 35 mm to? 11x14? size? ?but? ?for? ?4x5? to? 11x14? or? 8x10? ?works? just? ?fine. ? Zane? yea? amazing I was? going to? ?scrap? that? scanner? now it is a part of the workforce... I DO? WANT? A? EPSON 800 series that? goes up to 8x10? someday......though.....? ? (Back in my? youth? in the mid 70s I? did? ?advertising photography? for? products and? ? brochures? etc... and? ?many? people wanted? ? ?image of n? 4x5 transparency ... some? required? 8x10? even.? ?8x10? not? cheap? to? shoot.... $5 a? sheet? purchase? and $5? a sheet? processing? if? you? took to? lab. ) ? ? OK? ? so? for? my? 4x5? stuff? ?this old? scanner? works and? also we? have ad? shots to? be scanned? at museum too ... one? example is the? REGENCY ( IDEA ELECTRONICS)? ad? shot? transparency collection? ( They made? first transistor? radio and all kids of? great? goodies? ... uhf converters, radio transceivers, public services band monitors? and more-)? Now? if? any other of? you have? anything? on? Ektachrome? ?scan it? now since as? time progresses the? colors? will get? even crappier!!!!? ? I love? really old? ?4x5? KODACHROME? ?transparencies? the? colors are still? a beauty... the? reds are? majestic and vibrant!! ( search? internet? for? some of the? WW2? color? stuff...? amazing)? reason?? Aniline? dies? ?in Kodachrome vs? the crappy>ass organic? dyes in the Ektachrome)....? Anyway...? Message here ... scan any and all color? materials now? not? later as most? will just? get? worse? but Kodachrome? not? as? bad? and? EVERY other? ?medium. ? we? got a? large? group of? Burroughs? 35mm? ad? shots? on? transparency that are in the? Q? ?for? scanning...? pc? mini and mainframe? all across? the board.? stuff? will? definite? print up better than? scans? from magazines when I? need? a? photo? ?for a? display. ? ? Ed#? ?SMECC ? ? In a message dated 12/19/2018 9:15:44 AM US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at avanthar.com writes: ? > On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:49 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only.. With old scanners, always look at what the I/O interface is, and see if it?s a model of scanner supported by VueScan. VueScan is *amazing* and produces results that are about as good as SilverFast with my Epson V850 Pro. It also keeps some vintage scanners around here running. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 19 13:21:59 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:21:59 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> On 12/19/18 9:56 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I've been following @foone's development of the Snood Bloober on Twitter. "Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians on eBay) and the SnBl https://twitter.com/tubetimeus From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Dec 19 13:33:50 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 19:33:50 +0000 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/19/18 2:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/19/18 9:56 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> I've been following @foone's development of the Snood Bloober on Twitter. > > "Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians on eBay) and the SnBl > https://twitter.com/tubetimeus > when will someone be coming out with another sound card with a vacuum tube on it? bill From dave at 661.org Wed Dec 19 13:47:57 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:47:57 -0800 Subject: Bluebox AVR boards still available Message-ID: <12003DD4-4E24-4CE2-B33C-9923C83E6219@661.org> I still have Bluebox AVR boards ready to ship out. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 19 13:59:29 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:59:29 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-12-19 2:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 12/19/18 2:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 12/19/18 9:56 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I've been following @foone's development of the Snood Bloober on Twitter. >> >> "Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians on eBay) and the SnBl >> https://twitter.com/tubetimeus >> > > when will someone be coming out with another sound card with a > vacuum tube on it? > > bill > Hm, I do have some 12AX7's lying around... --T From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Dec 19 14:01:17 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:01:17 -0800 Subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00e101d497d5$9ab999b0$d02ccd10$@net> > > "Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians > on eBay) and the SnBl > > https://twitter.com/tubetimeus Has anyone seen these before? They seem to be a new take (just a shrink down) of the XT-IDE and an FDC controller that supports single density (FM) and 2.88 ED drives (along with the usual PC stuff). The FDC is interesting. I would have liked to have seen it be more like a CCIV w/ four drive support and addresses but given that most FDCs will not support FM this is a great step forward. www.ebay.com/itm/DeluxeFloppy-8-bit-ISA-Bootable-HD-Floppy-Serial/332861819300 It also looks like someone tweaked the PAL code, originally decoded by Chuck G., on the SB CM/S upgrade to get rid of some of the incompatibilities... www.ebay.com/itm/Improved-CMS-Upgrade-Kit-for-Sound-Blaster-2-0-CT1350B-compatible-with-CT1336A/283307302605 -Ali From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Dec 19 14:03:55 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:03:55 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <167c811466f-275a-c62@webjas-vac129.srv.aolmail.net> they already? do? have this,,,,,? output? state is a? tube.......Ed# In a message dated 12/19/2018 12:59:38 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 2018-12-19 2:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 12/19/18 2:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 12/19/18 9:56 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I've been following @foone's development of the Snood Bloober on Twitter. >> >> "Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians on eBay) and the SnBl >> https://twitter.com/tubetimeus >> > > when will someone be coming out with another sound card with a > vacuum tube on it? > > bill > Hm, I do have some 12AX7's lying around... --T From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Dec 19 14:07:26 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:07:26 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <167c7c7d666-5fa3-c88@webjas-vab127.srv.aolmail.net> References: <167c7c7d666-5fa3-c88@webjas-vab127.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: The Epson V850-Pro does pretty good at 8x10, and produces scans capable of being printed at about 30?x40?. I *WISH* I could scan my 11x14 negatives. To be able to do well requires either a vintage flatbed, or better yet a good Drum Scanner. Realistically, I need a good Drum Scanner, which in turn will require a Classic Mac to drive it (since I don?t want to use a Windows PC). You don?t want to know what it costs to shoot 4x5 transparencies, let alone 8x10. I have a project, that to pull off, is probably going to require 8x10 transparencies. I?m mainly working with 8x10 and 11x14 B&W, in fact I have a whole pile of 8x10 film that needs to be processed (I?m caught up on the 11x14). This is also causing problems for my Classic Computers, since it fights for space (my PDP-11/44 actually has two enlargers sitting on top of it). I have considered a couple photo projects using the Commodore 64 as the brains. Zane > On Dec 19, 2018, at 10:43 AM, ED SHARPE wrote: > > Zane - thanks for reminder. Yes this scanner goes scssi to a large cofax processing card that is supposed to do fast working magic... but die to faster PC and CPU speeds today may not be really needed or will HANG! > > > We do use the vuscan for use with a hp scanner that has a 4x5 negative scanner attachment on it. It will scan 35 mm to 4x5.... really not great resolution for 35 mm to 11x14 size but for 4x5 to 11x14 or 8x10 works just fine. > > Zane yea amazing I was going to scrap that scanner now it is a part of the workforce... > I DO WANT A EPSON 800 series that goes up to 8x10 someday......though..... > > (Back in my youth in the mid 70s I did advertising photography for products and brochures etc... and many people wanted image of n 4x5 transparency ... some required 8x10 even. 8x10 not cheap to shoot.... $5 a sheet purchase and $5 a sheet processing if you took to lab. ) > > > OK so for my 4x5 stuff this old scanner works and also we have ad shots to be scanned at museum too ... one example is the REGENCY ( IDEA ELECTRONICS) ad shot transparency collection ( They made first transistor radio and all kids of great goodies ... uhf converters, radio transceivers, public services band monitors and more-) Now if any other of you have anything on Ektachrome scan it now since as time progresses the colors will get even crappier!!!! I love really old 4x5 KODACHROME transparencies the colors are still a beauty... the reds are majestic and vibrant!! ( search internet for some of the WW2 color stuff... amazing) reason? Aniline dies in Kodachrome vs the crappy>ass organic dyes in the Ektachrome).... Anyway... Message here ... scan any and all color materials now not later as most will just get worse but Kodachrome not as bad and EVERY other medium. > > we got a large group of Burroughs 35mm ad shots on transparency that are in the Q for scanning... pc mini and mainframe all across the board. stuff will definite print up better than scans from magazines when I need a photo for a display. > > > Ed# SMECC > > > In a message dated 12/19/2018 9:15:44 AM US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at avanthar.com writes: > > > > On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:49 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only.. > > With old scanners, always look at what the I/O interface is, and see if it?s a model of scanner supported by VueScan. VueScan is *amazing* and produces results that are about as good as SilverFast with my Epson V850 Pro. It also keeps some vintage scanners around here running. > > Zane > > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 19 14:08:24 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:08:24 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0e4da552-36a7-d075-2712-5dcead79f6bb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/19/2018 12:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > when will someone be coming out with another sound card with a vacuum > tube on it? I didn't know that there was such for a personal computer. That being said, I have seem pictures of hats for Raspberry Pis (and the likes) that do have "valve" (what I assume are) finals. I don't really care about the "valve" vs "tube" debate or which side of the pond you're from. I'm saying "valve" as an internal joke with a friend. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 19 14:08:39 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:08:39 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <65d3ca3b-49db-d92f-ad6a-e99e0b760861@sydex.com> On 12/19/18 11:59 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-12-19 2:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> when will someone be coming out with another sound card with a >> vacuum tube on it? >> >> bill >> > > Hm, I do have some 12AX7's lying around... Well, there have been PC motherboards (I can't remember the brand) with a single tube installed... --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Dec 19 14:10:52 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 20:10:52 +0000 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <167c811466f-275a-c62@webjas-vac129.srv.aolmail.net> References: <167c811466f-275a-c62@webjas-vac129.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 12/19/18 3:03 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > they already? do? have this,,,,,? output? state is a? tube.......Ed# I know there was one. I was waiting for the newer model. bill > > > In a message dated 12/19/2018 12:59:38 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > On 2018-12-19 2:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> On 12/19/18 2:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 12/19/18 9:56 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> I've been following @foone's development of the Snood Bloober on Twitter. >>> >>> "Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians on eBay) and the SnBl >>> https://twitter.com/tubetimeus >>> >> >> when will someone be coming out with another sound card with a >> vacuum tube on it? >> >> bill >> > > Hm, I do have some 12AX7's lying around... > > --T > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 14:10:11 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:10:11 -0500 Subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <00e101d497d5$9ab999b0$d02ccd10$@net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <00e101d497d5$9ab999b0$d02ccd10$@net> Message-ID: That FDC is not an XT-IDE, it's a copy of Sergey Kiesev's XT-FDC controller. The same seller also saw fit to "cost optimize" the open source XT-IDE rev 4 and remove my copyright/site info. It's no great step forward, it's merely a copy of someone else's work with no attribution. The controller chip used on that FDC is the same as found on some Adaptec AHA-15xx series cards, which have been the go-to for a long time on adding FM support to PCs whose onboard controllers don't support it. Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 3:01 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > "Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians > > on eBay) and the SnBl > > > https://twitter.com/tubetimeus > > > Has anyone seen these before? They seem to be a new take (just a shrink > down) of the XT-IDE and an FDC controller that supports single density (FM) > and 2.88 ED drives (along with the usual PC stuff). The FDC is interesting. > I would have liked to have seen it be more like a CCIV w/ four drive > support and addresses but given that most FDCs will not support FM this is > a great step forward. > > > www.ebay.com/itm/DeluxeFloppy-8-bit-ISA-Bootable-HD-Floppy-Serial/332861819300 > > > It also looks like someone tweaked the PAL code, originally decoded by > Chuck G., on the SB CM/S upgrade to get rid of some of the > incompatibilities... > > > www.ebay.com/itm/Improved-CMS-Upgrade-Kit-for-Sound-Blaster-2-0-CT1350B-compatible-with-CT1336A/283307302605 > > -Ali > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 19 14:15:47 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:15:47 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 12/19/18 11:59 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > I do have some 12AX7's lying around... sell them From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Dec 19 14:17:26 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 20:17:26 +0000 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 12/19/18 3:15 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/19/18 11:59 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> I do have some 12AX7's lying around... > > sell them > > > You'll get my vacuum tubes when you pry them from my cold, dead hands. bill From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Dec 19 14:20:37 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:20:37 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <167c82095ba-275c-c98@webjas-vac177.srv.aolmail.net> OK? yea? Zane that is the? Epson scanner? I hear? so much? good? about! ? I miss? my? sinar....? had? ?4x5 5x7 and? 8 x10? backs? (it? was the old orig? NORMA.? ? what a? beauty... when I started? comp? biz the? sale of that? . cant? complain? ? ?comp biz? ..? still have my speed graphic? and? my uncles? 4x5? graphic? view? monorail camera? and? ?8x10? ansco? ?studio camera? ?I started with... ? one? thing? nice but? going unused is? the 5x7 durst? enlarger? with pin register vacuum? easel...? ?has? ?hi? power agfa? color? head on it.? ? used to be messenger graphics... they? used to? make? separations? with it until they? got their? scanner... bill hammer? had? 2? a? 5x7 and an 8x10..? some one else? got the? 8x10 (? darn!)? but? that is how? I? learned there was a? 5x7? one...? ? ?for? 8 x 10 bw? we had a cast? iron Elwood? diffusion enlarger..? great? for? printing? 8x10? and? 6 1/2? x? 8 1/2? glass plates? from? ?the? turn of the century.... ? I? think I? will give the durst to the? smecc? project.? ?I still want to see it!? (? but? would like to have the? room in? ?at? home? free) ? ? Ed# In a message dated 12/19/2018 1:07:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at avanthar.com writes: ? The Epson V850-Pro does pretty good at 8x10, and produces scans capable of being printed at about 30?x40?. ?I *WISH* I could scan my 11x14 negatives. ?To be able to do well requires either a vintage flatbed, or better yet a good Drum Scanner. ?Realistically, I need a good Drum Scanner, which in turn will require a Classic Mac to drive it (since I don?t want to use a Windows PC). ? You don?t want to know what it costs to shoot 4x5 transparencies, let alone 8x10. ?I have a project, that to pull off, is probably going to require 8x10 transparencies. ?I?m mainly working with 8x10 and 11x14 B&W, in fact I have a whole pile of 8x10 film that needs to be processed (I?m caught up on the 11x14). ?This is also causing problems for my Classic Computers, since it fights for space (my PDP-11/44 actually has two enlargers sitting on top of it). ? I have considered a couple photo projects using the Commodore 64 as the brains. ? Zane ? ? ? On Dec 19, 2018, at 10:43 AM, ED SHARPE wrote: Zane -? ?thanks? for? reminder.? Yes? this? scanner? ? goes? scssi? to? a? large? cofax? processing? card that is? supposed? to? do? fast? working magic... but? die? to faster? ?PC and CPU? speeds? today? may not? be? really needed? or? will HANG! ? We? do? use the? vuscan? for? ?use? with a? hp scanner that? has a? 4x5? negative? scanner attachment on it.? ?It? will scan? ?35 mm? to? 4x5....? ?really? not? ?great resolution? for? 35 mm to? 11x14? size? ?but? ?for? ?4x5? to? 11x14? or? 8x10? ?works? just? ?fine. ? Zane? yea? amazing I was? going to? ?scrap? that? scanner? now it is a part of the workforce... I DO? WANT? A? EPSON 800 series that? goes up to 8x10? someday......though..... ? (Back in my? youth? in the mid 70s I? did? ?advertising photography? for? products and? ? brochures? etc... and? ?many? people wanted? ? ?image of n? 4x5 transparency ... some? required? 8x10? even.? ?8x10? not? cheap? to? shoot.... $5 a? sheet? purchase? and $5? a sheet? processing? if? you? took to? lab. ) ? ? OK? ? so? for? my? 4x5? stuff? ?this old? scanner? works and? also we? have ad? shots to? be scanned? at museum too ... one? example is the? REGENCY ( IDEA ELECTRONICS)? ad? shot? transparency collection? ( They made? first transistor? radio and all kids of? great? goodies? ... uhf converters, radio transceivers, public services band monitors? and more-)? Now? if? any other of? you have? anything? on? Ektachrome? ?scan it? now since as? time progresses the? colors? will get? even crappier!!!!? ? I love? really old? ?4x5? KODACHROME? ?transparencies? the? colors are still? a beauty... the? reds are? majestic and vibrant!! ( search? internet? for? some of the? WW2? color? stuff...? amazing)? reason?? Aniline? dies? ?in Kodachrome vs? the crappy>ass organic? dyes in the Ektachrome)....? Anyway...? Message here ... scan any and all color? materials now? not? later as most? will just? get? worse? but Kodachrome? not? as? bad? and? EVERY other? ?medium. ? we? got a? large? group of? Burroughs? 35mm? ad? shots? on? transparency that are in the? Q? ?for? scanning...? pc? mini and mainframe? all across? the board.? stuff? will? definite? print up better than? scans? from magazines when I? need? a? photo? ?for a? display. ? ? Ed#? ?SMECC ? ? In a message dated 12/19/2018 9:15:44 AM US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at avanthar.com writes: ? > On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:49 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only.. With old scanners, always look at what the I/O interface is, and see if it?s a model of scanner supported by VueScan. VueScan is *amazing* and produces results that are about as good as SilverFast with my Epson V850 Pro. It also keeps some vintage scanners around here running. Zane From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Dec 19 14:24:18 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:24:18 -0800 Subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <00e101d497d5$9ab999b0$d02ccd10$@net> Message-ID: <00f101d497d8$d2024040$7606c0c0$@net> >That FDC is not an XT-IDE, it's a copy of Sergey Kiesev's XT-FDC controller. The same seller also saw fit >to "cost optimize" the open source XT-IDE rev 4 and remove my copyright/site info. It's no great step >forward, it's merely a copy of someone else's work with no attribution. I thought that seller had permission? Also I never said the FDC was XT-IDE. The same seller (from New Zealand) also sells a small XT-IDE card. I didn't bother linking to it because there was nothing special about it. >The controller chip used on that FDC is the same as found on some Adaptec AHA-15xx series cards, which >have been the go-to for a long time on adding FM support to PCs whose onboard controllers don't support >it. As for Sergey's I wasn't aware that he used the same chip as the Adaptec or that his supported FM. Of course everyone knows about the 1540 which has driven prices up. I do not know of anyone selling hobbyist FDCs at this time preassembled so this may be a good source for those looking for one. If anyone is selling FDCs (is Sergey?) pre-assembled then they maybe should get the business... -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 19 14:25:00 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:25:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <00e101d497d5$9ab999b0$d02ccd10$@net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <00e101d497d5$9ab999b0$d02ccd10$@net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone seen these before? They seem to be a new take (just a shrink > down) of the XT-IDE and an FDC controller that supports single density > (FM) and 2.88 ED drives (along with the usual PC stuff). The FDC is > interesting. I would have liked to have seen it be more like a CCIV w/ > four drive support and addresses but given that most FDCs will not > support FM this is a great step forward. > www.ebay.com/itm/DeluxeFloppy-8-bit-ISA-Bootable-HD-Floppy-Serial/332861819300 SOME FDC will support FM. SOME FDC can sorta do 128 byte sectors. It looks nice, but, I want a DC37 external connector, instead of the serial. Or use a header for serial to give space for the DC37. Or (would require moving stuff around a little, or a taller board), a second 34 pin header, and a DC37 on a bracket with short cable. Serial are a dime a dozen. IBM gave away FREE serial (and 20mA!) card with XT, just to keep us from plugging anything into the 8th slot! (OK, that one from IBM wasn't as fast as current, . . . ) Chances are real good that it already supports 4 drives, other than the connector. Trivia mods should be able to enable 3 drives, with "standard", instead of IBM "twist" cable. And NOT by repurposing SIDE SELECT like Radio Shack did for their fourth drive! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Dec 19 14:35:44 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:35:44 -0800 Subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <00e101d497d5$9ab999b0$d02ccd10$@net> Message-ID: <00f801d497da$6aaa08e0$3ffe1aa0$@net> > > four drive support and addresses but given that most FDCs will not > > support FM this is a great step forward. ... > > SOME FDC will support FM. > SOME FDC can sorta do 128 byte sectors. Fred, SOME is not MOST ;). Yeah some will but if you were to pick up a generic 8bit FDC off of eBay chances are it won't > > It looks nice, but, > I want a DC37 external connector, instead of the serial. Or use a > header > for serial to give space for the DC37. > Or (would require moving stuff around a little, or a taller board), a > second 34 pin header, and a DC37 on a bracket with short cable. Agreed, as I said I would have liked to see more of the CompatiCard IV functionality replicated. Or if they wanted to go above and beyond a 50 pin internal header (for 8") and/or an edge connector (for 5 1/4") would also be nice.... OR built in FDADAP functionality? How about better copying prowess (e.g. put Copy II PC circuitry on the same FDC)? The deluxe chip might be hard to replicate but the earlier TTL one should be doable)... -Ali From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 14:35:29 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:35:29 -0500 Subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <00e101d497d5$9ab999b0$d02ccd10$@net> Message-ID: > I thought that seller had permission? I don't remember what license, if any, Sergey chose for his work. Perhaps it's in compliance. In any case, it's not a new design -- Sergey's wasn't either, it was an improvement on the N8VEM XT-FDC project. I intend on redoing Sergey's design, with permission, at some point in the not too distant future. Personally, I want a DC37 and both card edge and pin header internal 34-pin connections, so that I can drop the board in as a replacement for a PC or XT floppy controller without changing cables. As with the XT-IDE, onboard serial doesn't seem like much of a feature to me. I've avoided redoing any of Sergey's designs as he'd contacted me some time ago asking how the kit thing was working out with XT-IDEs. It'd sounded like he intended to maybe run some of his designs and provide kits and/or assembled+tested boards for hobbyists. I probably ought to reach out to him and see if that's still the case or not. Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 3:25 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Has anyone seen these before? They seem to be a new take (just a shrink > > down) of the XT-IDE and an FDC controller that supports single density > > (FM) and 2.88 ED drives (along with the usual PC stuff). The FDC is > > interesting. I would have liked to have seen it be more like a CCIV w/ > > four drive support and addresses but given that most FDCs will not > > support FM this is a great step forward. > > > www.ebay.com/itm/DeluxeFloppy-8-bit-ISA-Bootable-HD-Floppy-Serial/332861819300 > > SOME FDC will support FM. > SOME FDC can sorta do 128 byte sectors. > > It looks nice, but, > I want a DC37 external connector, instead of the serial. Or use a header > for serial to give space for the DC37. > Or (would require moving stuff around a little, or a taller board), a > second 34 pin header, and a DC37 on a bracket with short cable. > Serial are a dime a dozen. IBM gave away FREE serial (and 20mA!) card > with XT, just to keep us from plugging anything into the 8th slot! > (OK, that one from IBM wasn't as fast as current, . . . ) > > Chances are real good that it already supports 4 drives, other than the > connector. > > Trivia mods should be able to enable 3 drives, with "standard", instead of > IBM "twist" cable. > And NOT by repurposing SIDE SELECT like Radio Shack did for their fourth > drive! > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 19 14:46:49 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:46:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > That's the one you recommended for my microfiche scanning ;-) > They just lowered the price ... In addition, how hard would it be to 3D print some parts to turn it into a PLOTTER? Half a century ago, I wrote some trivial code to convert Calcomp plotting software to Stromberg Carlson/Datagraphix. (Hint, don't reqrite the high level functions, wait until they call the lowest level primitives, and just write conversion for THOSE) It shouldn't be hard to convert to STL. 3D print brackets for mounting a dremel, and have a cheap (crappy) CNC mill. From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Dec 19 14:54:01 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:54:01 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <167c82095ba-275c-c98@webjas-vac177.srv.aolmail.net> References: <167c82095ba-275c-c98@webjas-vac177.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <647F313F-E6E5-4695-BD9B-2D7B425D3607@avanthar.com> I?d like an 8x10 enlarger, but I don?t regret passing on the Elwood that turned up in the area about a year ago. It was in *sorry* shape. I do regret missing a Zone VI 5x7 in November. My main enlarger is a 4x5 Beseler. For 4x5 I?m using Horseman, for 8x10 Deardorff, and for 11x14 I have a Kodak 2D that?s likely over 100 years old. I?m currently trying to figure out how to free up some of the space taken by classic computers, and other stuff, to make room for building out a proper darkroom. Even if I get a proper darkroom, finding room for an 8x10 enlarger would be a challenge, they they make my PDP-11/44 and other DEC HW look small. Zane > On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:20 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > > OK yea Zane that is the Epson scanner I hear so much good about! > > I miss my sinar.... had 4x5 5x7 and 8 x10 backs (it was the old orig NORMA. what a beauty... when I started comp biz the sale of that . cant complain comp biz .. still have my speed graphic and my uncles 4x5 graphic view monorail camera and 8x10 ansco studio camera I started with... > > > one thing nice but going unused is the 5x7 durst enlarger with pin register vacuum easel... has hi power agfa color head on it. used to be messenger graphics... they used to make separations with it until they got their scanner... bill hammer had 2 a 5x7 and an 8x10.. some one else got the 8x10 ( darn!) but that is how I learned there was a 5x7 one... for 8 x 10 bw we had a cast iron Elwood diffusion enlarger.. great for printing 8x10 and 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 glass plates from the turn of the century.... > > I think I will give the durst to the smecc project. I still want to see it! ( but would like to have the room in at home free) > > > Ed# > In a message dated 12/19/2018 1:07:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at avanthar.com writes: > > The Epson V850-Pro does pretty good at 8x10, and produces scans capable of being printed at about 30?x40?. I *WISH* I could scan my 11x14 negatives. To be able to do well requires either a vintage flatbed, or better yet a good Drum Scanner. Realistically, I need a good Drum Scanner, which in turn will require a Classic Mac to drive it (since I don?t want to use a Windows PC). > > You don?t want to know what it costs to shoot 4x5 transparencies, let alone 8x10. I have a project, that to pull off, is probably going to require 8x10 transparencies. I?m mainly working with 8x10 and 11x14 B&W, in fact I have a whole pile of 8x10 film that needs to be processed (I?m caught up on the 11x14). This is also causing problems for my Classic Computers, since it fights for space (my PDP-11/44 actually has two enlargers sitting on top of it). > > I have considered a couple photo projects using the Commodore 64 as the brains. > > Zane > > > > > On Dec 19, 2018, at 10:43 AM, ED SHARPE > wrote: > Zane - thanks for reminder. Yes this scanner goes scssi to a large cofax processing card that is supposed to do fast working magic... but die to faster PC and CPU speeds today may not be really needed or will HANG! > > > We do use the vuscan for use with a hp scanner that has a 4x5 negative scanner attachment on it. It will scan 35 mm to 4x5.... really not great resolution for 35 mm to 11x14 size but for 4x5 to 11x14 or 8x10 works just fine. > > Zane yea amazing I was going to scrap that scanner now it is a part of the workforce... > I DO WANT A EPSON 800 series that goes up to 8x10 someday......though..... > > (Back in my youth in the mid 70s I did advertising photography for products and brochures etc... and many people wanted image of n 4x5 transparency ... some required 8x10 even. 8x10 not cheap to shoot.... $5 a sheet purchase and $5 a sheet processing if you took to lab. ) > > > OK so for my 4x5 stuff this old scanner works and also we have ad shots to be scanned at museum too ... one example is the REGENCY ( IDEA ELECTRONICS) ad shot transparency collection ( They made first transistor radio and all kids of great goodies ... uhf converters, radio transceivers, public services band monitors and more-) Now if any other of you have anything on Ektachrome scan it now since as time progresses the colors will get even crappier!!!! I love really old 4x5 KODACHROME transparencies the colors are still a beauty... the reds are majestic and vibrant!! ( search internet for some of the WW2 color stuff... amazing) reason? Aniline dies in Kodachrome vs the crappy>ass organic dyes in the Ektachrome).... Anyway... Message here ... scan any and all color materials now not later as most will just get worse but Kodachrome not as bad and EVERY other medium. > > we got a large group of Burroughs 35mm ad shots on transparency that are in the Q for scanning... pc mini and mainframe all across the board. stuff will definite print up better than scans from magazines when I need a photo for a display. > > > Ed# SMECC > > > In a message dated 12/19/2018 9:15:44 AM US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at avanthar.com <> writes: > > > > On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:49 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only.. > > With old scanners, always look at what the I/O interface is, and see if it?s a model of scanner supported by VueScan. VueScan is *amazing* and produces results that are about as good as SilverFast with my Epson V850 Pro. It also keeps some vintage scanners around here running. > > Zane > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 19 14:57:10 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:57:10 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <6dfc0bf8-f531-17a2-ffc0-9b5e12dddc80@bitsavers.org> On 12/19/18 12:17 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > You'll get my vacuum tubes when you pry them from my cold, dead hands. sure thing, let me know when you croak 12AX7's are going for stupid money now From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 19 14:59:49 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:59:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> <6f0df94a-517a-39df-69d2-d58ce6654a9f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: >>> I still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Pretty sure that's the one. Got stuff piled on it at the moment > so I can't read the model number. An inherent design problem with flatbed scanners! In the college computer lab, we put a plexiglass pyramid on top of the lid of the scanner as the only way to keep it from being used as a table and shelf. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Dec 19 15:06:54 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 21:06:54 +0000 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> <6f0df94a-517a-39df-69d2-d58ce6654a9f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 12/19/18 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> I still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Pretty sure that's the one.? Got stuff piled on it at the moment >> so I can't read the model number. > > An inherent design problem with flatbed scanners! > > In the college computer lab, we put a plexiglass pyramid on top of the > lid of the scanner as the only way to keep it from being used as a table > and shelf. > So true. I just wish I could find the sheet feeder for it. We never bought it and I have never seen on eBay or anything. bill From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Dec 19 15:08:36 2018 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:08:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <6dfc0bf8-f531-17a2-ffc0-9b5e12dddc80@bitsavers.org> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> <6dfc0bf8-f531-17a2-ffc0-9b5e12dddc80@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1488641327.171348.1545253716403@email.ionos.com> > On December 19, 2018 at 3:57 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/19/18 12:17 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > You'll get my vacuum tubes when you pry them from my cold, dead hands. > > sure thing, > let me know when you croak > > 12AX7's are going for stupid money now > But if his hands are cold, doesn't that mean the tubes are dead? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 19 15:09:29 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:09:29 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> <6f0df94a-517a-39df-69d2-d58ce6654a9f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <9254c5b2-44fe-3af2-1dea-658a0553bbbb@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-12-19 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> I still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Pretty sure that's the one.? Got stuff piled on it at the moment >> so I can't read the model number. > > An inherent design problem with flatbed scanners! > > In the college computer lab, we put a plexiglass pyramid on top of the > lid of the scanner as the only way to keep it from being used as a table > and shelf. > > Brilliant! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 19 15:09:28 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:09:28 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> <6f0df94a-517a-39df-69d2-d58ce6654a9f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 2018-12-19 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> I still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Pretty sure that's the one.? Got stuff piled on it at the moment >> so I can't read the model number. > > An inherent design problem with flatbed scanners! > > In the college computer lab, we put a plexiglass pyramid on top of the > lid of the scanner as the only way to keep it from being used as a table > and shelf. > > Brilliant! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 19 15:09:51 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:09:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3D printer $179.99 today ONLY (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <000001d497be$f1045380$d30cfa80$@classiccmp.org> References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> <000001d497be$f1045380$d30cfa80$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Actually I misspoke when I said the ender 3 has design flaws. All of its > flaws are in the execution of manufacturing, not in the design itself. > Replace the extruder with an all-metal one instead of plastic (the > plastic one cracked in a few weeks for me, so filament slippage) - cost > is about $15. Drop in a borosilicate glass bed, so you can get better > adhesion than the stock pad, easier removal, as well as more flexible > choice of filament materials - that's about $20. Replace the z-axis rod > coupler with one that actually doesn't slip - cost about $5. And while > not necessary, it makes it a lot easier to get good parts if you add an > automatic bed leveler - $70 (for the th3d one). THAT is useful information. One that I saw had a [3D printed] bracket for dial indicator added on for setting height. From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Dec 19 15:14:10 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:14:10 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <9254c5b2-44fe-3af2-1dea-658a0553bbbb@telegraphics.com.au> References: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> <6f0df94a-517a-39df-69d2-d58ce6654a9f@e-bbes.com> <9254c5b2-44fe-3af2-1dea-658a0553bbbb@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4B1C3A18-C10F-4D0B-A340-F0D57C79020C@avanthar.com> > On Dec 19, 2018, at 1:09 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > On 2018-12-19 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>> I still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department >> On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> Pretty sure that's the one. Got stuff piled on it at the moment >>> so I can't read the model number. >> >> An inherent design problem with flatbed scanners! >> >> In the college computer lab, we put a plexiglass pyramid on top of the >> lid of the scanner as the only way to keep it from being used as a table >> and shelf. > > Brilliant! Agreed, I should consider doing that with mine. It?s currently buried in a stack of slides and negatives. It?s also common to have books and magazines up there. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 19 15:16:28 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:16:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <3c2ecdfc-9702-f78d-88ad-55b3ac4fd0b1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3c2ecdfc-9702-f78d-88ad-55b3ac4fd0b1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I always liked the PS/2 cases. Just about every one I've seen is tool less > down to, and sometimes including, the system planar (as IBM called it). Typically unreliable source (my uncle who worked for IBM) said that the reason that they REFUSED to call it a "motherboard" was due to some TV news broadcasts from Merritt College where Black Panthers were saying "UP AGAINST THE WALL, MOTHER!" I was there. They said 'motherfucker", not "mother". (there was a New Yorker? cartoon with an elderly woman commenting that she loved how they kept saying "mother") Nevertheless, s'posedly it caused IBM to choose a different name. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 19 15:17:01 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:17:01 -0500 Subject: Vacuum Tubes, / Valves, funny money - was Re: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <6dfc0bf8-f531-17a2-ffc0-9b5e12dddc80@bitsavers.org> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> <6dfc0bf8-f531-17a2-ffc0-9b5e12dddc80@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <09995de1-99e2-9f62-8d86-72a18db794fd@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-12-19 3:57 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/19/18 12:17 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> You'll get my vacuum tubes when you pry them from my cold, dead hands. > > sure thing, > let me know when you croak > > 12AX7's are going for stupid money now > > > > I was going to disagree, but then: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/5-Telefunken-12AX7-ECC83-Tubes-Vtg-1960-Berlin-Germany/323603001927 I suspect this is not going to be true of all brands though. --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 19 15:17:00 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:17:00 -0500 Subject: Vacuum Tubes, / Valves, funny money - was Re: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <6dfc0bf8-f531-17a2-ffc0-9b5e12dddc80@bitsavers.org> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> <6dfc0bf8-f531-17a2-ffc0-9b5e12dddc80@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3c8b4300-6954-cc33-533e-912417eabd41@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-12-19 3:57 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/19/18 12:17 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> You'll get my vacuum tubes when you pry them from my cold, dead hands. > > sure thing, > let me know when you croak > > 12AX7's are going for stupid money now > > > > I was going to disagree, but then: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/5-Telefunken-12AX7-ECC83-Tubes-Vtg-1960-Berlin-Germany/323603001927 I suspect this is not going to be true of all brands though. --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 19 15:22:03 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:22:03 -0500 Subject: OT - CNC - Re: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <301a62da-556d-b992-269c-859842a46957@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-12-19 3:46 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> That's the one you recommended for my microfiche scanning ;-) >> They just lowered the price ... > > In addition, how hard would it be to 3D print some parts to turn it into > a PLOTTER? > Half a century ago, I wrote some trivial code to convert Calcomp > plotting software to Stromberg Carlson/Datagraphix.? (Hint, don't > reqrite the high level functions, wait until they call the lowest level > primitives, and just write conversion for THOSE)? It shouldn't be hard > to convert to STL. > > 3D print brackets for mounting a dremel, and have a cheap (crappy) CNC > mill. > Since talk has drifted to CNC, you can easily use this cheap North American unit (Waterloo, Canada) for plotting -- it's one of their demos. I'm tempted to get one for PCBs and other things. I'm not affiliated but the people behind this are great (and sometimes hiring): https://sienci.com/product/sienci-mill-one-kit-v3/ --Toby From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 19 15:27:07 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:27:07 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3c2ecdfc-9702-f78d-88ad-55b3ac4fd0b1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Having worked at IBM ?in the day?, the ?official? reason (near as I could tell) was that IBM didn?t want to anthropomorphise computers. So it was never ?memory?, it was always ?storage?. So we didn?t have RAM or ROM, we had storage or ROS. Disks were called DASD. Main boards were called ?planars?. TTFN - Guy > On Dec 19, 2018, at 1:16 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> I always liked the PS/2 cases. Just about every one I've seen is tool less down to, and sometimes including, the system planar (as IBM called it). > > Typically unreliable source (my uncle who worked for IBM) said that the reason that they REFUSED to call it a "motherboard" was due to some TV news broadcasts from Merritt College where Black Panthers were saying "UP AGAINST THE WALL, MOTHER!" > I was there. They said 'motherfucker", not "mother". > (there was a New Yorker? cartoon with an elderly woman commenting that she loved how they kept saying "mother") > Nevertheless, s'posedly it caused IBM to choose a different name. > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Dec 19 15:29:47 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 21:29:47 +0000 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3c2ecdfc-9702-f78d-88ad-55b3ac4fd0b1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 12/19/18 4:27 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > Having worked at IBM ?in the day?, the ?official? reason (near as I could tell) was that IBM didn?t want to anthropomorphise computers. So it was never ?memory?, it was always ?storage?. So we didn?t have RAM or ROM, we had storage or ROS. Disks were called DASD. Main boards were called ?planars?. And today, we have "Watson". bill From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Dec 19 15:31:43 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:31:43 -0800 Subject: VueSCAN Message-ID: <010e01d497e2$3d238c90$b76aa5b0$@net> Does anyone know if old versions of VueSCAN worked on anything below XP (e.g. Win 9x, 2K or even gasp 3.x)? Thanks. -Ali From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 19 15:42:41 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:42:41 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <983a0e66-986f-f5b2-d2bf-4c2fb4eb3096@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3c2ecdfc-9702-f78d-88ad-55b3ac4fd0b1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 12/19/2018 02:29 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > And today, we have "Watson". That's a symptom of one of many things that have changed at IBM. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Dec 19 15:44:03 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:44:03 -0800 Subject: VueSCAN In-Reply-To: <010e01d497e2$3d238c90$b76aa5b0$@net> References: <010e01d497e2$3d238c90$b76aa5b0$@net> Message-ID: <73FC7D06-C393-4803-B60B-3B03C6EAA7B8@avanthar.com> > On Dec 19, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone know if old versions of VueSCAN worked on anything below XP > (e.g. Win 9x, 2K or even gasp 3.x)? Thanks. > > -Ali I?d recommend asking Hamrick, I think they only make the current version of their software available, and I?m not sure how long it?s been around. According to Wikipedia it?s been around for 20 years, which would mean that there should be versions that support Win 9x and 2k. It?s primary purpose is to allow people to use scanners that are no longer supported on modern hardware. Having said that, on my Epson V850-Pro I find it to be very, very close in quality to SilverFast when scanning film. For documents, I?d use VueScan. Zane From u.tagge at gmx.de Wed Dec 19 13:06:47 2018 From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 20:06:47 +0100 Subject: Retarded ebay prices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d5bc031-e932-08dd-481b-28c5d8305c00@gmx.de> We had three HP250 Desks here in Germany over the last Years. They have found a new Home for approx. 200.- to 250.- Euro. This one is since months on my whatchlist, and the price is defnitly too high. We had also a VAX 11/785 incl. 9-Track Tape, VT100, RA Disk Drive, ... ... which was gone for under 1.000.- Euro (dame i had not enough space) From cube1 at charter.net Wed Dec 19 15:14:28 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:14:28 -0600 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <031E95A2-7C51-44E0-B9F8-0A6DFC240933@vmssoftware.com> <097933a6-8ae4-6419-2d4e-d965b6907e30@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <2e5325a8-ce38-6af9-f19c-9e2fc8c2779a@charter.net> On 12/18/2018 3:35 PM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > > > On 12/18/18 12:38 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > >>> Unfortunately I got no docs or media with this machine. And it appears >>> all that is up on bitsavers are tape images? > > Everything DG related on bitsavers has been on hold for a while until the > licensing situation with EMC worked itself through. > > > I have a fair amount of DG software floppies (and have imaged them), but have also been advised (by another party) to hold off making them available owing to licensing issues. Shame, really. Hopefully it will all get worked out. But, here is a quick list: (DGDSDD is double-sided dual density, DGFHS is DG hard sectored, MT is mag tape (9 track)) KIND ID MACHINE CONTENTS COMMENT Checksum Checksum 2 FILENAME MFG SERIAL TRAY DATE AVAILABILI ERRORS PREVIOUS_C MT CC0028 NOVA "RDOS ""STARTER""" 12/30/88 NOVA 3/4, 1 Extra file @ end rdos_starter_881230.aws Memorex 35CWA1 Rack East Wall 8/7/2000 ? MT CC0029 NOVA "RDOS66 ""STARTER TAPE""" 12/31/88 NOVA 4/X, Last file BAD rdos_66_starter_881230.aws Memorex 27JHA9 Rack East Wall 8/7/2000 Y MT CC0030 NOVA RDOS 6.6 NOVA 4/x FDUMP Reel 1 of 2 12/31/88 rdos_66_fdump_1_of_2_881231.aws Memorex 35JWA9 Rack East Wall 8/7/2000 MT CC0031 NOVA RDOS 6.6 NOVA 4/x FDUMP Reel 2 of 2 12/31/88 rdos_66_fdump_2_of_2_881231.aws Wabash 87623#1511 Rack East Wall 8/7/2000 KIND ID MACHINE CONTENTS COMMENT Checksum Checksum 2 FILENAME MFG SERIAL TRAY DATE AVAILABILI ERRORS PREVIOUS_C DGDSDD DGF1229 Nova 4 NOVA 4/X BASICGEN. DUMP FORMAT 12/30/88 DGF1229.DMK DG F64 12/30/1988 All Tracks 16 x 512 2464 Sectors DGDSDD DGF1230 Nova 4 NOVA 4/X $LIB $SPL $OLIB $WP DUMP FORMAT 12/28/88 DGF1230.DMK DG F64 12/28/1988 All Tracks 16 x 512 2464 Sectors DGFHS 1001 NOVA NOVA DOS Starter DK W/O Mag Tape 072-000002-02 (Copy) dg1001.img DG F50 DGFHS 1002 NOVA NOVA DOS Starter DK Rev. 3.00 072-000002-04 dg1002.img DG F50 DGFHS 1003 NOVA NOVA DOS Starter DK Rev. 3.00 072-000002-04 (Copy) dg1003.img DG F50 4/20/1979 DGFHS 1004 NOVA NOVA DOS SYSGEN Diskette: W/O Mag Tape 072-000003-01 dg1004.img DG F50 DGFHS 1005 NOVA NOVA DOS SYSGEN Diskette: W/O Mag Tape 072-000003-02 (Copy) dg1005.img DG F50 DGFHS 1006 NOVA NOVA DOS UTILITY Diskette W/O Mag Tape 072-000004-01 dg1006.img DG F50 DGFHS 1007 NOVA NOVA DOS UTILITY Diskette W/O Mag Tape 072-000004-02 (Copy) dg1007.img DG F50 DGFHS 1008 NOVA NOVA DOS UTILITIES DK Rev. 3.00 072-000004-04 dg1008.img DG F50 DGFHS 1009 NOVA NOVA DOS UTILITIES DK 072-000004-?? (Copy, Revision not shown) dg1009.img DG F50 4/20/1979 DGFHS 1010 NOVA RTOS Mag Tape Support 072-000006-01 (RTOS DOS Support not Mag? dg1010.img DG F50 DGFHS 1011 NOVA NOVA DOS Starter Diskette With Mag Tape 072-000009-00 dg1011.img DG F50 DGFHS 1012 NOVA CMSP (Communications Mux Software Pkg?) 072-000018-00 dg1012.img DG F50 DGFHS 1013 NOVA MicroNOVA Starter DK Rev. 3.00 072-000035-03 dg1013.img DG F50 DGFHS 1014 NOVA DOS Update 2 for Rev 3.00 072-000241-01 dg1014.img DG F50 DGFHS 1015 NOVA NOVA RTOS 072-000040-00 dg1015.img DG F51 DGFHS 1016 NOVA NOVA RTOS on Diskette "072-000040-02 (Rev 6) ""3100""" dg1016.img DG F51 DGFHS 1017 NOVA RTOS Rev. 6.20 072-000040-03 dg1017.img DG F51 DGFHS 1018 NOVA RTOS Update 1 ON Diskette 072-000322-00 (Rev 6) dg1018.img DG F51 DGFHS 1019 NOVA Real Time Input/Output System (RTIOS) 072-000048-00 dg1019.img DG F51 DGFHS 1020 NOVA RDOS Patch on Diskette "072-000091-01A ""3181F""" dg1020.img DG F51 DGFHS 1021 NOVA RDOS Patch on Diskette "072-000091-01A (Copy) ""3181F""" dg1021.img Verbatim F51 DGFHS 1022 NOVA NRDOS on Diskette 1 of 3 "072-000098-02 ""OLD REV WIPED""" dg1022.img DG F51 DGFHS 1023 NOVA NRDOS on Diskette 2 of 3 "072-000099-02 ""OLD REV""" dg1023.img DG F51 DGFHS 1024 NOVA NRDOS on Diskette 3 of 3 "072-000100-02 ""OLD REV""" dg1024.img DG F51 DGFHS 1025 NOVA RDOS Update 1 on Diskette "072-000091-02 ""OLD REV""" dg1025.img DG F51 DGFHS 1026 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.40 on Diskette 1 of 3 072-000098-03 dg1026.img DG F51 DGFHS 1027 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.40 on Diskette 2 of 3 072-000099-03 dg1027.img DG F51 DGFHS 1028 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.40 on Diskette 3 of 3 072-000100-03 dg1028.img DG F51 DGFHS 1029 NOVA Update 2 for Rev 6.40 RDOS on Diskette 072-000091-03 dg1029.img DG F51 DGFHS 1030 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.50 DK 1 072-000098-04 dg1030.img DG F52 DGFHS 1031 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.50 DK 2 072-000099-04 dg1031.img DG F52 DGFHS 1032 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.50 DK 3 072-000100-04 dg1032.img DG F52 DGFHS 1033 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.50 DK 4 072-000543-00 dg1033.img DG F52 DGFHS 1034 NOVA Update 2 for RDOS Rev 6.50 on DK 072-000091-04 dg1034.img DG F52 DGFHS 1035 NOVA Update 3 for RDOS on DK Rev. 6.50 DK 1 072-000091-04 dg1035.img DG F52 DGFHS 1036 NOVA Update 3 for RDOS on DK Rev. 6.50 DK 2 072-000589-00 dg1036.img DG F52 DGFHS 1037 NOVA NOVA 3 Mapped RDOS Rev 6.60 DK 1 072-000098-05 dg1037.img DG F52 DGFHS 1038 NOVA NOVA 3 Mapped RDOS Rev 6.60 DK 2 072-000099-05 dg1038.img DG F52 DGFHS 1039 NOVA NOVA 3 Mapped RDOS Rev 6.60 DK 3 072-000100-05 dg1039.img DG F52 DGFHS 1040 NOVA NOVA 3 Mapped RDOS Rev 6.60 DK 4 072-000543-01 dg1040.img DG F52 DGFHS 1041 NOVA Update 1 for RDOS on DK Rev 6.60 072-000091-05 dg1041.img DG F52 DGFHS 1042 NOVA Update 2 - Nova/Eclipse RDOS Rev 6.60 072-000091-05 dg1042.img DG F52 DGFHS 1043 NOVA Update 2 - Nova/Eclipse RDOS Rev 6.60 072-000091-05 dg1043.img DG F52 DGFHS 1044 NOVA RDOS BATCH Processor on Diskette R. 6.20 072-000061 dg1044.img DG F52 DGFHS 1045 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 1 072-000098-06 dg1045.img DG F53 DGFHS 1046 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 2 072-000099-06 dg1046.img DG F53 DGFHS 1047 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 3 072-000100-06 dg1047.img DG F53 DGFHS 1048 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 4 072-000543-02 dg1048.img DG F53 DGFHS 1049 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 5 072-000669-00 dg1049.img DG F53 DGFHS 1050 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 1 072-000098-06 dg1050.img DG F53 DGFHS 1051 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 2 072-000099-06 dg1051.img DG F53 DGFHS 1052 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 3 072-000100-06 dg1052.img DG F53 DGFHS 1053 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 4 072-000543-02 dg1053.img DG F53 DGFHS 1054 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 5 072-000669-00 dg1054.img DG F53 DGFHS 1055 NOVA Update 1 NOVA/Eclipse RDOS Rev. 6.70 072-000091-06 dg1055.img DG F53 DGFHS 1056 NOVA Update 1 NOVA/Eclipse RDOS Rev. 6.70 072-000091-06 dg1056.img DG F53 DGFHS 1057 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 7.00 DK 1 072-000098-07 dg1057.img DG F54 DGFHS 1058 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 7.00 DK 2 072-000099-07 dg1058.img DG F54 DGFHS 1059 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 7.00 DK 3 072-000100-07 dg1059.img DG F54 DGFHS 1060 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 7.00 DK 4 072-000543-03 dg1060.img DG F54 DGFHS 1061 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 7.00 DK 5 072-000669-01 dg1061.img DG F54 DGFHS 1062 NOVA Update 1, NOVA/Eclipse RDOS Rev 7.00 DK1 072-000091-07 dg1062.img DG F54 DGFHS 1063 NOVA Update 1, NOVA/Eclipse RDOS Rev 7.00 DK2 072-000589-01 dg1063.img DG F54 DGFHS 1064 NOVA URDOS Diskette 1 of 3 072-000101-01 dg1064.img DG F54 DGFHS 1065 NOVA URDOS Diskette 2 of 3 072-000102-01 dg1065.img DG F54 DGFHS 1066 NOVA URDOS Diskette 3 of 3 072-000103-01 dg1066.img DG F54 DGFHS 1067 NOVA URDOS Diskette 1 of 3 072-000101-01 (Copy) dg1067.img Verbatim F54 11/16/1977 DGFHS 1068 NOVA URDOS Diskette 3 of 3 072-000103-01 (Copy) dg1068.img Verbatim F54 DGFHS 1069 NOVA SOS FORTRAN IV Compiler 072-000069-00 (Yes, SOS, not DOS) dg1069.img DG F55 DGFHS 1070 NOVA DOS FORTRAN IV Runtime & Compiler 072-000005-00 (Checksum Error FORT1.LB) dg1070.img DG F55 DGFHS 1071 NOVA DOS FORTRAN IV Runtime & Compiler 072-000005-00 (Copy) dg1071.img DG F55 DGFHS 1072 NOVA FORTRAN 4 DOS Compiler Rev 5.30 072-000005-03 dg1072.img DG F55 DGFHS 1073 NOVA NOVA FORTRAN CSP 072-000044-00 (Commercial Subroutine Pkg dg1073.img DG F55 DGFHS 1074 NOVA FORTRAN IV Runtime Library 072-000025-00 dg1074.img DG F55 DGFHS 1075 NOVA NOVA FORTRAN IV Runtime 072-000025-02 dg1075.img DG F55 DGFHS 1076 NOVA NOVA FORTRAN IV Runtime 072-000025-02 dg1076.img DG F55 DGFHS 1077 NOVA NOVA FORTRAN IV Compiler 072-000027-02 dg1077.img DG F55 DGFHS 1078 NOVA NOVA FORTRAN IV Compiler 072-000027-02 dg1078.bad DG F55 NN Bad Sectors DGFHS 1079 NOVA Update 2 NOVA FORTRAN IV 072-000348-00A dg1079.img DG F55 DGFHS 1079A NOVA Update 2 NOVA FORTRAN IV 072-000348-00A dg1079A.img DG F55 DGFHS 1080 NOVA FORTRAN 4 Runtime Rev. 5.30 072-000025-03 dg1080.img DG F56 DGFHS 1081 NOVA Update 1 for DOS FORTRAN 4 Rev 5.30 072-000473-00 dg1081.img DG F56 DGFHS 1082 NOVA Update 1 for DOS FORTRAN 4 Rev. 5.30 072-000473-00 dg1082.img DG F56 DGFHS 1083 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN IV Compiler Rev. 5.50 072-000027-05 dg1083.img DG F56 DGFHS 1084 NOVA Update 4, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 1 072-000291-03 dg1084.img DG F56 DGFHS 1085 NOVA Update 4, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 2 072-000309-00 dg1085.img DG F56 DGFHS 1086 NOVA Update 5, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 1 072-000291-03 dg1086.img DG F56 DGFHS 1087 NOVA Update 5, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 2 072-000309-00 dg1087.img DG F56 DGFHS 1088 NOVA Update 6, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 1 072-000291-03 dg1088.img DG F56 DGFHS 1089 NOVA Update 6, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 2 072-000309-00 dg1089.img DG F56 DGFHS 1090 NOVA Update 7, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 1 072-000291-03 dg1090.img DG F56 DGFHS 1091 NOVA Update 7, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 2 072-000309-00 dg1091.img DG F56 DGFHS 1092 NOVA NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev. 6.10 DK 1 072-000052-04 dg1092.img DG F57 DGFHS 1093 NOVA NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev. 6.10 DK 2 072-000055-04 dg1093.img DG F57 DGFHS 1094 NOVA NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev. 6.10 DK 3 072-000511-01 dg1094.img DG F57 DGFHS 1095 NOVA Upd. 1 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 1 072-000283-03 dg1095.img DG F57 DGFHS 1096 NOVA Upd. 1 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 2 072-000712-00 dg1096.img DG F57 DGFHS 1097 NOVA Upd. 2 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 1 072-000283-03 dg1097.img DG F57 DGFHS 1098 NOVA Upd. 2 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 2 072-000712-00 dg1098.img DG F57 DGFHS 1099 NOVA Upd. 3 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 1 072-000283-03 dg1099.img DG F57 DGFHS 1100 NOVA Upd. 3 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 2 072-000712-00 dg1100.img DG F57 DGFHS 1101 NOVA Upd. 4 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 1 072-000283-03 dg1101.img DG F57 DGFHS 1102 NOVA Upd. 4 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 2 072-000712-00 dg1102.img DG F57 DGFHS 1103 NOVA Upd. 5 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 1 072-000283-03 dg1103.img DG F57 DGFHS 1104 NOVA Upd. 5 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 2 072-000712-00 dg1104.img DG F57 DGFHS 1105 NOVA ALGOL Runtime Libraries 072-000047-00 dg1105.img DG F58 DGFHS 1106 NOVA RDOS ALGOL Compiler Rev. 2.10 072-000046-01 dg1106.img DG F58 DGFHS 1107 NOVA RDOS ALGOL Compiler Rev. 2.10 072-000046-01 dg1107.img DG F58 DGFHS 1108 NOVA NOVA ALGOL Runtime Rev 2.10 072-000047-02 dg1108.img DG F58 DGFHS 1109 NOVA NOVA ALGOL Runtime Rev 2.10 072-000047-02 dg1109.img DG F58 DGFHS 1110 NOVA Update 1 ALGOL Rev. 2.10 072-000288-00 dg1110.img DG F58 DGFHS 1111 NOVA Update 1 ALGOL Rev. 2.10 072-000288-00 dg1111.img DG F58 DGFHS 1112 NOVA Update 1 ALGOL Rev. 2.10 072-000288-00 dg1112.img DG F58 DGFHS 1113 NOVA Update 1 ALGOL Rev. 2.10 072-000288-00 dg1113.img DG F58 DGFHS 1114 NOVA SOS Single User Extended BASIC 072-000067-00 dg1114.img DG F58 DGFHS 1115 NOVA DOS BASIC 072-000092-01 dg1115.img DG F58 DGFHS 1116 NOVA NOVA Extended BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK 1 072-000030-06 dg1116.img DG F59 DGFHS 1117 NOVA NOVA RDOS Extended BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK 1 072-000030-06 dg1117.img DG F59 DGFHS 1118 NOVA N/E RDOS Extended BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK 2 072-000355-02 dg1118.img DG F59 DGFHS 1119 NOVA NOVA Extended BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK 1 072-000030-06 DG F59 BAD: Will not rotate in sleeve DGFHS 1120 NOVA NOVA/Eclipse M/U Ext. BASIC Rev 5.40 DK2 072-000355-02 dg1120.img DG F59 DGFHS 1121 NOVA Update 1 for RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev. 5.40 072-000279-04 dg1121.img DG F59 DGFHS 1122 NOVA Update 2 RDOS Extended BASIC Rev. 5.40 072-000279-04 dg1122.img DG F59 DGFHS 1123 NOVA Update 3 N/E RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev 5.40 072-000279-04 dg1123.img DG F59 DGFHS 1124 NOVA Update 3 N/E RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev 5.40 072-000279-04 dg1124.img DG F59 DGFHS 1125 NOVA Upd. 4 N/E RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK1 072-000279-04 dg1125.img DG F59 DGFHS 1126 NOVA Upd. 4 N/E RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK2 072-000703-00 dg1126.img DG F59 DGFHS 1127 NOVA Upd. 4 N/E RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK1 072-000279-04 dg1127.img DG F59 DGFHS 1128 NOVA Upd. 4 N/E RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK2 072-000703-00 dg1128.img DG F59 DGFHS 1129 NOVA DG Plotter Software (From Tape) dg1129.bad VERBATIM F60 NN 1 Bad Track DGFHS 1130 NOVA DG Plotter Software (From Tape) dg1130.img VERBATIM F60 DGFHS 1131 NOVA DG Diagnostics / Plot Subroutines dg1131.img DG F60 DGFHS 1132 NOVA PLOT.DM Backup 12/14/76 dg1132.bad DG F60 NN 1 Bad Track DGFHS 1133 NOVA Floppy/Copy NOVA V1.1 FC-N-1384 dg1133.img BASF F60 DGFHS 1134 NOVA Copy Floppy Copy FC-N-1384 dg1134.img DG F60 DGFHS 1135 NOVA DTOS Diagnostics dg1135.img DG F60 DGFHS 1136 NOVA DTOS Model N1 on Diskette 075-000004-00 dg1136.img DG F60 DGFHS 1137 NOVA DTOS Model N2 on Diskette 075-000005-00 (BAD) dg1137.img DG F60 DGFHS 1138 NOVA DTOS Model P1 on Diskette 075-000006-03 dg1138.img DG F60 DGFHS 1139 NOVA DTOS Model P2 on Diskette 075-000007-03 dg1139.img DG F60 DGFHS 1140 NOVA DTOS Model P3 on Diskette 075-000008-03 DG F60 NN Bad Tracks From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Dec 19 15:22:02 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 21:22:02 +0000 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: <2e5325a8-ce38-6af9-f19c-9e2fc8c2779a@charter.net> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <031E95A2-7C51-44E0-B9F8-0A6DFC240933@vmssoftware.com> <097933a6-8ae4-6419-2d4e-d965b6907e30@connorsdomain.com> <2e5325a8-ce38-6af9-f19c-9e2fc8c2779a@charter.net> Message-ID: On 12/19/18 4:14 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > On 12/18/2018 3:35 PM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: >> >> >> On 12/18/18 12:38 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> >>>> Unfortunately I got no docs or media with this machine. And it appears >>>> all that is up on bitsavers are tape images? >> >> Everything DG related on bitsavers has been on hold for a while until the >> licensing situation with EMC worked itself through. >> >> >> > > I have a fair amount of DG software floppies (and have imaged them), but > have also been advised (by another party) to hold off making them > available owing to licensing issues. Shame, really. Hopefully it will > all get worked out. > Tell that to the PDP-11 and Pr1me enthusiasts. bill From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 19 16:08:40 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:08:40 -0600 Subject: OT RE: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update Message-ID: <001201d497e7$66146840$323d38c0$@classiccmp.org> Fred wrote... In addition, how hard would it be to 3D print some parts to turn it into a PLOTTER? ------- I have not seen or done the below myself. But I have heard that there are plenty of conversion kits out there for 3d printers to do: As fred asked... https://tinyurl.com/y9d7sbwt Also... PCB creation. Some are doing pcb's by adding a small laser module to the hotend and exposing photoresist plates and then washing off all but the traces and pads. Others are mounting a conductive ink pen to the hot end and drawing the traces. Some are building thin channels for the traces, and filling them with conductive paint. Some are laser engraving or even cutting with a small (8000 mW continuous) CO2 laser, again, on the hot end. Some are casting metal parts by 3d printing molds. There are new filament materials coming out all the time. My new favorite is a wood filament. It's just wood particles in another medium, sure... but it can be sanded and will take stain. That's close enough for me! There's a reason getting a 3d printer took me away from vintage computers for a while ;) J From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 19 16:16:49 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:16:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> That's the one you recommended for my microfiche scanning ;-) >> They just lowered the price ... > > In addition, how hard would it be to 3D print some parts to turn it into a > PLOTTER? That's actually a pretty common modification for existing 3D printers. > 3D print brackets for mounting a dremel, and have a cheap (crappy) CNC mill. > 3D printer chassis make lousy CNC router chassis. The frame stiffness just isn't there. (and it shouldn't be) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 16:22:08 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 22:22:08 -0000 Subject: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <063a01d497e9$484591c0$d8d0b540$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of geneb via cctalk > Sent: 19 December 2018 22:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > >> That's the one you recommended for my microfiche scanning ;-) They > >> just lowered the price ... > > > > In addition, how hard would it be to 3D print some parts to turn it > > into a PLOTTER? > That's actually a pretty common modification for existing 3D printers. > > > 3D print brackets for mounting a dremel, and have a cheap (crappy) CNC > mill. > > > 3D printer chassis make lousy CNC router chassis. The frame stiffness just > isn't there. (and it shouldn't be) > No I tried using my Maplin/Velleman/3Drag to route and it was pants. Some folks have allegedly used them to make PCBs but I can't believe it works well. I did use it to drill the switch holes for the Baby Baby... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGcAmrFoRrY but the bed flexing didn't matter for that, but it wouldn't mill the triangle trunnions that keep the uprights upright. Dave > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value > database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 19 16:31:02 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:31:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT RE: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <001201d497e7$66146840$323d38c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <001201d497e7$66146840$323d38c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Jay West wrote: > Some are casting metal parts by 3d printing molds. Besides printing molds, I have heard that there is now a filament available that can be melted out/away, for a variant of lost-wax [sandbox?] casting. From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Dec 19 16:32:40 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:32:40 -0800 Subject: OT - CNC - Re: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <301a62da-556d-b992-269c-859842a46957@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> <301a62da-556d-b992-269c-859842a46957@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > On Dec 19, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > Since talk has drifted to CNC, you can easily use this cheap North > American unit (Waterloo, Canada) for plotting -- it's one of their > demos. I'm tempted to get one for PCBs and other things. > > I'm not affiliated but the people behind this are great (and sometimes > hiring): > > https://sienci.com/product/sienci-mill-one-kit-v3/ > > --Toby Now we?re talking! In many ways, this would be more useful, for me than a 3D printer. I need to spend some time reading their website. Zane From turing at shaw.ca Wed Dec 19 16:35:44 2018 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:35:44 -0700 (MST) Subject: OT RE: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <001201d497e7$66146840$323d38c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1612601740.140272192.1545258944345.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> There are also filaments that can be dissolved - they're mainly used for support structures, but could also be used for 'lost-wax' casting. From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 2:31:02 PM Subject: Re: OT RE: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Jay West wrote: > Some are casting metal parts by 3d printing molds. Besides printing molds, I have heard that there is now a filament available that can be melted out/away, for a variant of lost-wax [sandbox?] casting. From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Dec 19 17:09:53 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:09:53 -0800 Subject: Retarded ebay prices In-Reply-To: <1d5bc031-e932-08dd-481b-28c5d8305c00@gmx.de> References: <1d5bc031-e932-08dd-481b-28c5d8305c00@gmx.de> Message-ID: Well, if someone in the Puget Sound area has a HP250 desk that they would sell for the equivalent of 200-250 Euro, let me know and I will be over tomorrow to pick it up. All of this stuff is worth what someone will pay for it. All it takes is one person for that system to be worth 6000 Euro. On 12/19/18 11:06 AM, Ulrich Tagge via cctalk wrote: > We had three HP250 Desks here in Germany over the last Years. > They have found a new Home for approx. 200.- to 250.- Euro. > This one is since months on my whatchlist, and the price is defnitly > too high. > We had also a VAX 11/785 incl. 9-Track Tape, VT100, RA Disk Drive, ... > ... which was gone for under 1.000.- Euro (dame i had not enough space) > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 19 17:59:25 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:59:25 -0800 Subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <00e101d497d5$9ab999b0$d02ccd10$@net> Message-ID: <352e91ae-4487-8945-f8a4-3d8a96c4c8a5@sydex.com> On 12/19/18 12:10 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > The controller chip used on that FDC is the same as found on some Adaptec > AHA-15xx series cards, which have been the go-to for a long time on adding > FM support to PCs whose onboard controllers don't support it. I don't think that's correct, when I look at my Adaptec 1542, which uses (as did some Future Domain and DTC) SCSI controllers, the NSC 8473, which was a very nice chip--it even supports writing 128-byte MFM encoded sectors The item shown uses the National 8477, which is basically a clone of the old Intel 82077. Still good for FM, but not writing 128 byte sector MFM. Micro Solutions initially shipped the CompatiCard IV with the Intel chip--and it worked well. Intel then revised the chip as the 82077AA-1 to add tape support and broke the FM capability. When I inquired about this to Intel, I got the response "Who uses FM anymore?". Micro Solutions sent a bunch of retrofit kits with NSC chips in them to a small bunch of CC IV purchasers after they discovered the problem. Fortunately, the 8477 is pin-compatible with the 82077. I remember working with Andrew on his card and assembled a prototype, which worked, but showed some component placement issues. My objection was the serial port and large ROM was completely unnecessary; in fact, I left that unpopulated on my board. FWIW, Chuck From jim.manley at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 18:32:13 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:32:13 -0700 Subject: OT RE: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <001201d497e7$66146840$323d38c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 3:31 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Jay West wrote: > > Some are casting metal parts by 3d printing molds. > > Besides printing molds, I have heard that there is now a filament > available that can be melted out/away, for a variant of lost-wax > [sandbox?] casting. PLA (polylactic acid) will easily evaporate/burn if you pour molten metal into a sand mold packed tightly around a 3-D printed positive (pattern) made of that material. Be aware that you need to allow for the pattern's dimensions being about 4% larger than those of the final part's, for aluminum after it cools, due to its high thermal expansion coefficient (or contraction, in this case). The coefficients for other metals/alloys have to be looked up, but will generally be less than aluminum's, which also has one of the higher melting points. There's a YouBoob video from a few years ago somewhere that I can't find any more, made by a crazy guy in Idaho. He shows the whole process for making a large CNC lead screw bearing mounting part, from a 3-D printed pattern, including mixing plaster with sand using an electric hand mixer in a stainless steel bowl in his kitchen (obviously a confirmed bachelor, or he has the most awesome wife _ever_!). He also shows how to use small pieces of cut-up rigid insulating foam to form channels (where molten metal enters) and chimneys (where gases from pattern/channel/chimney materials evaporating/burning escape). Best of all, he's in his fuzzy slippers outside on snow with an aluminum high-temperature firefighters pants, jacket, and hood on, pouring molten aluminum (with pieces of copper pipe melted in to improve pourability) into a sand mold from a crucible heated in a homemade furnace. The latter was made from a 20-gallon steel barrel found in the dump ... I mean, "recycling center", into which he had poured a cylinder of firebrick mortar formed by a smaller steel barrel placed in the center of the larger one as a form, which was removed from the inside after the mortar had hardened. He referenced a website that shows how to make awesome propane burners from cut and drilled iron pipe, then showed how he cut tangential holes through the barrels and had inserted a pipe through the holes before pouring the mortar, the same diameter as the burner. The combustion gases would then swirl up around the crucible inside the mortar cylinder for the fastest melting of the metal, when the burner was inserted through the tangential holes and where the placeholder pipe had been. The money shot is when his Husky/Malamut keeps walking back and forth, in and out of frame behind him during the video, restrained by a chain attached to an elevated wire line, and then at the end the dog sits down. The dog is looking at him with this priceless, straight-man expression with narrowed eyes and appears to be thinking something akin to, "Are you done with this foolishness yet, so we can go inside to get some chow and warm up?" BTW, he cited his source for all of his knowledge as the WW-II era U.S. Navy manual for casting metal, from back when sailors just made whatever parts were needed. They had well-equipped and stocked shops on larger ships and tenders, with furnaces for casting all the way through lathes, milling machines, and drill presses for final machining. Those manuals are on-line and contain a wealth of industrial technical information about every facet of metalworking, electricity and electronics, radio, steam and diesel engineering, etc., but in language that boys off the farm could understand quickly and comprehensively. I sure hope that there are copies stashed in that critical human history document vault, that the Long Now Foundation (LongNow.org) is building, with a mechanical clock that will be able to run for 10,000 years with no maintenance, to be installed underground in a remote part of West Texas (kinda redundant, I know!). From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Dec 19 19:07:19 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:07:19 -0800 Subject: OT RE: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <001201d497e7$66146840$323d38c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <355BA706-32A9-4971-9B11-7C9A31020461@avanthar.com> > On Dec 19, 2018, at 4:32 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > BTW, he cited his source for all of his knowledge as the WW-II era U.S. > Navy manual for casting metal, from back when sailors just made whatever > parts were needed. They had well-equipped and stocked shops on larger > ships and tenders, with furnaces for casting all the way through lathes, > milling machines, and drill presses for final machining. Those manuals are > on-line and contain a wealth of industrial technical information about > every facet of metalworking, electricity and electronics, radio, steam and > diesel engineering, etc., but in language that boys off the farm could > understand quickly and comprehensively. I sure hope that there are copies > stashed in that critical human history document vault, that the Long Now > Foundation (LongNow.org) is building, with a mechanical clock that will be > able to run for 10,000 years with no maintenance, to be installed > underground in a remote part of West Texas (kinda redundant, I know!). I?m not sure the quality of Navy Manuals now, but I do know that the ones from the 70?s and 80?s were for the most part fantastic. I think the only ones I have that are WW II era (technically Korea) would be for Photography. The NEETS series which crossed several ratings is definitely worth while, though by now it?s likely pretty dated (and I?m not sure if it?s been updated. While the Frigate I was on lacked a furnace, it had the rest of the stuff you mention above. That was on one of the smallest ships. Zane From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 19 19:34:15 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 20:34:15 -0500 Subject: OT RE: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <355BA706-32A9-4971-9B11-7C9A31020461@avanthar.com> References: <001201d497e7$66146840$323d38c0$@classiccmp.org> <355BA706-32A9-4971-9B11-7C9A31020461@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <18A97ECD-5EE8-44F6-AA5D-D31F65464A4F@comcast.net> > On Dec 19, 2018, at 8:07 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Dec 19, 2018, at 4:32 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: >> >> BTW, he cited his source for all of his knowledge as the WW-II era U.S. >> Navy manual for casting metal, from back when sailors just made whatever >> parts were needed. ... Another nice resource for casting, especially for aluminum and for amateurs, is the famous series by Dave Gingery on how to build machinery (lathe, mill, shaper) from cast aluminum (recycled aluminum scrap). I have a couple of his books; the full series starts with how to make a foundry using charcoal for fuel, and goes on to making a lathe, then a shaper, then a mill, and more. Neat stuff. Lindsay Publications used to print these, but Lindsay retired and that company closed down. I did see Gingery's books still in print via some other path more recently, though. paul From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Dec 19 19:38:53 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:38:53 -0800 Subject: VueSCAN In-Reply-To: <73FC7D06-C393-4803-B60B-3B03C6EAA7B8@avanthar.com> References: <010e01d497e2$3d238c90$b76aa5b0$@net> <73FC7D06-C393-4803-B60B-3B03C6EAA7B8@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <012a01d49804$c4ed3c80$4ec7b580$@net> > I?d recommend asking Hamrick, I think they only make the current > version of their software available, and I?m not sure how long it?s > been around. According to Wikipedia it?s been around for 20 years, > which would mean that there should be versions that support Win 9x and > 2k. > > It?s primary purpose is to allow people to use scanners that are no > longer supported on modern hardware. Having said that, on my Epson > V850-Pro I find it to be very, very close in quality to SilverFast when > scanning film. For documents, I?d use VueScan. > Zane, Thanks for the info. I am aware of the purpose/reason people are recommending it. The reason I asked my question is my own OCD need to standardize, i.e. If I can use a program I like in a multi-OS environment I see that as a serious plus. You learn one program well and use it across Win9x, 2K, XP, 7, OS X, and even Linux.... I am guessing VueScan is limited to 32bit and above OSes but I could be wrong. I wonder if there were ever any TWAIN drivers for Win 3.x..... -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Dec 19 19:38:53 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:38:53 -0800 Subject: NSC 8477 Was: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL In-Reply-To: <352e91ae-4487-8945-f8a4-3d8a96c4c8a5@sydex.com> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <00e101d497d5$9ab999b0$d02ccd10$@net> <352e91ae-4487-8945-f8a4-3d8a96c4c8a5@sydex.com> Message-ID: <012b01d49804$c546ce30$4fd46a90$@net> > Micro Solutions initially shipped the CompatiCard IV with the Intel > chip--and it worked well. Intel then revised the chip as the 82077AA-1 > to add tape support and broke the FM capability. When I inquired about > this to Intel, I got the response "Who uses FM anymore?". Micro > Solutions sent a bunch of retrofit kits with NSC chips in them to a > small bunch of CC IV purchasers after they discovered the problem. > Fortunately, the 8477 is pin-compatible with the 82077. Chuck, Are you saying that CCIV initially had an NSC 8477 or an 8473? Or that it had an Intel chip and when Intel came out with a new revision they went to an NSC chip? Also are all CCIVs retrofitable? i.e. can I order an NSC chip and plop it into my CCIV to get FM back? Finally can you drop in an NSC 8473 in a CCIV to get 128-byte MFM or the best you can do is switch to a NSC 8477? TIA! -Ali From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Dec 19 19:50:16 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 01:50:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <891d4c61-ed3e-e5ee-eb8e-4b97579f301e@sydex.com> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <20181219110934.GA24086@mooli.org.uk> <891d4c61-ed3e-e5ee-eb8e-4b97579f301e@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Really? Show me one that is 1) in current production, 2) offers the > >> full ISA bus (not just some decoded address lines and 8 data lines), > >> 3) plugs into a PCI slot. > >> Christian > > > > Surprised no one has used something like an ATMega or cheap USB > > connected ARM to build a USB to ISA adapter with tie in to DOSBox or > > some other emulator. > > > > For what it's worth, I've never seen an ISA to USB or ISA to PCI > "bridge" implementation that was fully functional--and that includes P4 > and later motherboards using a bridge chip. I've been round the block > with a couple of motherboard vendors. I don't know how functional their solutions are and I've never had any of their products nor I have anything to do with them, but I've had this link: in my bookmarks just in case since 2005. I guess if they have been in that business for so long now, they must have been doing things right. HTH, Maciej From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Dec 19 19:53:01 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:53:01 -0800 Subject: OT RE: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <18A97ECD-5EE8-44F6-AA5D-D31F65464A4F@comcast.net> References: <001201d497e7$66146840$323d38c0$@classiccmp.org> <355BA706-32A9-4971-9B11-7C9A31020461@avanthar.com> <18A97ECD-5EE8-44F6-AA5D-D31F65464A4F@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 19, 2018, at 5:34 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On Dec 19, 2018, at 8:07 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On Dec 19, 2018, at 4:32 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> BTW, he cited his source for all of his knowledge as the WW-II era U.S. >>> Navy manual for casting metal, from back when sailors just made whatever >>> parts were needed. ... > > Another nice resource for casting, especially for aluminum and for amateurs, is the famous series by Dave Gingery on how to build machinery (lathe, mill, shaper) from cast aluminum (recycled aluminum scrap). I have a couple of his books; the full series starts with how to make a foundry using charcoal for fuel, and goes on to making a lathe, then a shaper, then a mill, and more. Neat stuff. > > Lindsay Publications used to print these, but Lindsay retired and that company closed down. I did see Gingery's books still in print via some other path more recently, though. > > paul INTERESTING! These books sound like a great resource! http://gingerybooks.com Zane From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Wed Dec 19 20:25:49 2018 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 19:25:49 -0700 Subject: DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland In-Reply-To: <097933a6-8ae4-6419-2d4e-d965b6907e30@connorsdomain.com> References: <2b18401b652af7008ee639604f0c3ffd@connorsdomain.com> <031E95A2-7C51-44E0-B9F8-0A6DFC240933@vmssoftware.com> <097933a6-8ae4-6419-2d4e-d965b6907e30@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <4880a169-bda0-076a-2a7f-a02e3130ee57@Wild-Hare.com> Conner and Jay - I will contact you off-list in the next few days regarding software license and docs... Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 12/18/2018 8:16 AM, Connor Krukosky via cctalk wrote: > Well I ended up picking up this machine. Its a bit beaten in some > places, cleaner than expected in others. > Overall it cleaned up pretty well and all power-supplies appear to work > well! > Got it up to DG's "ODT" can't remember what they called it. Ram looks > good at the beginning of the address space anyway. > This has a "JR. CPU" board in, a Cassette I/O board which I believe only > has an extra UART on it, none of the cassette interface as its pretty > sparse. And the 8" Disk controller board (6030 controller). Overall a > pretty small machine. Looks like it used two serial ports, one at 9600 > baud for the primary console, then the other at 300 baud. Probably a > teletype off to the side. > Seems to be a 1981 machine. > Unfortunately I got no docs or media with this machine. And it appears > all that is up on bitsavers are tape images? > Anyone have any disk images for the 6030 drive of anything like RDOS? > Photos: > https://imgur.com/a/A0hZEVf > > > -Connor K > > On 12/12/18 3:37 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: >> And I assume the Fortran IV compiler could run on this system. >> >> ?On 12/12/18, 9:11 PM, "cctalk on behalf of William Donzelli via >> cctalk" > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> ???? While this is an absurdly small Data General Nova system for the era >> ???? (at least it is not a microNova), you would run RDOS - not unlike a >> ???? dual 8 inch floppy Z80 system of the day. >> ???? -- >> ???? Will >> ???? On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:27 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk >> ???? wrote: >> ???? > >> ???? > How does a person program this computer? I assume there's no C >> compiler. >> ???? > >> ???? > Would one have to boot to a DOS, then load a compiler into RAM, >> then read >> ???? > program text into ram, them compile? >> ???? > >> ???? > I have less-than-zero experience with DG systems, but a >> higher-than-zero >> ???? > adoration for their design/pedigree. >> ???? > >> ???? > =] >> ???? > -- >> ???? > Anders Nelson >> ???? > >> ???? > +1 (517) 775-6129 >> ???? > >> ???? > www.erogear.com >> ???? > >> ???? > >> ???? > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:21 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk < >> ???? > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> ???? > >> ???? > > Shoot, was asking my wife if I could have it for Christmas to >> replace my >> ???? > > regular desk in the family room :) >> ???? > > But to keep the decor of our home a little more sane, I'll >> abstain from >> ???? > > bidding and wish you best of luck instead! >> ???? > > >> ???? > > happy holidays and good luck! >> ???? > > --jake >> ???? > > >> ???? > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 1:28 PM Connor Krukosky via cctalk < >> ???? > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> ???? > > >> ???? > > > Alright, I think I will go for it. I am not too far from it >> being in >> ???? > > > Poughkeepsie. >> ???? > > > Always loved the desk machines, and I personally have >> another kinda >> ???? > > > parts Nova 4 that hopefully I can use to switch parts >> between to get one >> ???? > > > really nice machine :) >> ???? > > > >> ???? > > > -Connor K >> ???? > > > >> ???? > > > On 2018-12-11 13:04, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> ???? > > > > I had one of those quite a few years ago. The desk comes >> apart fairly >> ???? > > > > easily. The main unit is just a standard shorty 19" rack. >> ???? > > > > >> ???? > > > > -- >> ???? > > > > Will >> ???? > > > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:34 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk >> ???? > > > > wrote: >> ???? > > > >> >> ???? > > > >> I'm about an hour drive away and somewhat interested, >> but I don't have >> ???? > > > >> space for the desk unfortunately. >> ???? > > > >> >> ???? > > > >> -- >> ???? > > > >> Anders Nelson >> ???? > > > >> >> ???? > > > >> +1 (517) 775-6129 >> ???? > > > >> >> ???? > > > >> www.erogear.com >> ???? > > > >> >> ???? > > > >> >> ???? > > > >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Tony Aiuto >> >> ???? > > > >> wrote: >> ???? > > > >> >> ???? > > > >> > It is close enough to me to rescue, but I really don't >> have the >> ???? > > space >> ???? > > > to >> ???? > > > >> > store it. >> ???? > > > >> > Will anyone take it if I hold it a while? >> ???? > > > >> > >> ???? > > > >> > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:24 PM Anders Nelson via >> cctalk < >> ???? > > > >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> ???? > > > >> > >> ???? > > > >> >> Would this system fit in a standard 19" wide >> equipment rack? >> ???? > > > >> >> >> ???? > > > >> >> =] >> ???? > > > >> >> -- >> ???? > > > >> >> Anders Nelson >> ???? > > > >> >> >> ???? > > > >> >> +1 (517) 775-6129 >> ???? > > > >> >> >> ???? > > > >> >> www.erogear.com >> ???? > > > >> >> >> ???? > > > >> >> >> ???? > > > >> >> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < >> ???? > > > >> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> ???? > > > >> >> >> ???? > > > >> >> > Cribbed from VCF: >> ???? > > > >> >> > >> ???? > > > >> >> > >> ???? > > > >> >> > >> ???? > > > >> >> >> ???? > > > >> ???? > > >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0 >> >> ???? > > > >> >> > >> ???? > > > >> >> > Chuck >> ???? > > > >> >> > >> ???? > > > >> >> >> ???? > > > >> > >> ???? > > > >> ???? > > >> >> From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Dec 19 21:32:59 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 19:32:59 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <20181219110934.GA24086@mooli.org.uk> <891d4c61-ed3e-e5ee-eb8e-4b97579f301e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <013201d49814$b5d6d430$21847c90$@net> > I don't know how functional their solutions are and I've never had any > of > their products nor I have anything to do with them, but I've had this > link: in my bookmarks just in case since > 2005. > I guess if they have been in that business for so long now, they must > have > been doing things right. I can tell you for a fact that they do NOT support DMA so a non-starter for many things..... From jim.manley at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 21:36:42 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 20:36:42 -0700 Subject: OT RE: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <18A97ECD-5EE8-44F6-AA5D-D31F65464A4F@comcast.net> References: <001201d497e7$66146840$323d38c0$@classiccmp.org> <355BA706-32A9-4971-9B11-7C9A31020461@avanthar.com> <18A97ECD-5EE8-44F6-AA5D-D31F65464A4F@comcast.net> Message-ID: There?s a lot to be said for the Navy manuals because we (22 years in my case), as all of the branches of the military and, increasingly, industry, have had to educate our enlisted people in STEM principles, concepts, practices, and skills. That?s because the K-12 ?education? system has largely punted on doing this because it?s largely run by people with humanities degrees and teaching experience. Kids are more likely to be asked how something feels about being oppressed by gravity and jackbooted thugs that walk on them, rather than calculating the force of gravitational attraction, per g*M1*M2/(r^2). I know this because, following my Navy and SillyCon Valley careers, I?ve been teaching 6 - 12 grade STEM and Computing in multiple districts in four states and have been continually battling to get equitable funding and administrator/board support everywhere, all the time. One school district thought nothing about spending three million dollars for an AstroTurf football field with a state-of-the-art scoreboard and stadium bleachers, but my annual budget was a whole $200 for equipment, materials, books, software, etc. STEM textbooks were upwards of 12 years old - the periodic tables in chemistry books didn?t contain the 10 most recently fabricated elements (atomic numbers 109 - 118). The Earth and Space Science books had nothing more recent about planetary probes/landers/rovers since the Voyagers were launched in 1977 (which I witnessed). On-line/optical-digital companion material didn?t exist for any of the STEM textbooks at any price. I could have taught at universities and colleges, but I discovered that none of the students were from the local region because they just didn?t have strong enough STEM academic performance to be able to succeed at the post-secondary level. I suspect that the administrators of these institutions were also swayed by foreign students whose authoritarian governments are more than happy to pay full freight in tuition, etc., because it?s not their money, anyway. The result is that tuitions, fees, etc., are rising even faster than they had been due to loan guarantees, grants, and scholarships. I?m doing as much as I can as a lone voice in the wilderness. The humanities types are complaining that my incessant howling is oppressing the snail darters, though ... From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 19 23:20:29 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 21:20:29 -0800 Subject: NSC 8477 Was: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL In-Reply-To: <012b01d49804$c546ce30$4fd46a90$@net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <00e101d497d5$9ab999b0$d02ccd10$@net> <352e91ae-4487-8945-f8a4-3d8a96c4c8a5@sydex.com> <012b01d49804$c546ce30$4fd46a90$@net> Message-ID: <7432c620-9d4c-6370-f7b1-7b0fde42b64c@sydex.com> On 12/19/18 5:38 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> Micro Solutions initially shipped the CompatiCard IV with the Intel >> chip--and it worked well. Intel then revised the chip as the 82077AA-1 >> to add tape support and broke the FM capability. When I inquired about >> this to Intel, I got the response "Who uses FM anymore?". Micro >> Solutions sent a bunch of retrofit kits with NSC chips in them to a >> small bunch of CC IV purchasers after they discovered the problem. >> Fortunately, the 8477 is pin-compatible with the 82077. > > Chuck, > > Are you saying that CCIV initially had an NSC 8477 or an 8473? Or that it had an Intel chip and when Intel came out with a new revision they went to an NSC chip? Also are all CCIVs retrofitable? i.e. can I order an NSC chip and plop it into my CCIV to get FM back? Finally can you drop in an NSC 8473 in a CCIV to get 128-byte MFM or the best you can do is switch to a NSC 8477? TIA! No, the CCIV initially had a plain-jane Intel rev 0 82077AA in a 68 pin PLCC. After Intel "improved" the chip to the 82077AA-1, FM ceased to work. Fortunately, as I mentioned NSC 8477 is a plug-in replacement, with the exception of not needing an extra external cap (the pin is NC on the National chip). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 19 23:24:43 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 21:24:43 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <013201d49814$b5d6d430$21847c90$@net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <20181219110934.GA24086@mooli.org.uk> <891d4c61-ed3e-e5ee-eb8e-4b97579f301e@sydex.com> <013201d49814$b5d6d430$21847c90$@net> Message-ID: <9a4d54cb-7743-515f-00ee-aef955ded150@sydex.com> On 12/19/18 7:32 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> I don't know how functional their solutions are and I've never had any >> of >> their products nor I have anything to do with them, but I've had this >> link: in my bookmarks just in case since >> 2005. >> I guess if they have been in that business for so long now, they must >> have >> been doing things right. > > I can tell you for a fact that they do NOT support DMA so a non-starter for > many things..... ISA is a bit more complex to emulate as it might at first appear. Real ISA supports I/O port addressing, memory addressing, DMA and interrupts. The last chipset that I'm aware of that directly supported real ISA was the Intel 440BX family (440Bx, GX and ZX). Later chipsets use a "bridge chip" that introduces incompatibilieis. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 18:13:38 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 19:13:38 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <6dfc0bf8-f531-17a2-ffc0-9b5e12dddc80@bitsavers.org> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> <6dfc0bf8-f531-17a2-ffc0-9b5e12dddc80@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Just fixed a 66 Ampeg SB-13 guitar amp, the tubes are not cheap On Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 5:26 PM Al Kossow via cctech > > On 12/19/18 12:17 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > You'll get my vacuum tubes when you pry them from my cold, dead hands. > > sure thing, > let me know when you croak > > 12AX7's are going for stupid money now > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 18:28:35 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 19:28:35 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <16d3a843-f418-b5e4-404c-480b567fe307@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9ba8a309-8570-e7fe-fb88-4f43332255cd@bitsavers.org> <79b9efc8-b7c0-8bf8-7ada-fdfe5351e457@telegraphics.com.au> <6dfc0bf8-f531-17a2-ffc0-9b5e12dddc80@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Just fixed a 66 Ampeg SB-13 guitar amp, the tubes are not cheap Hmmm...if only we knew a guy on this list that deals in tubes... -- Will From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Dec 20 00:40:45 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 22:40:45 -0800 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=97=BENSC_8477_Was:_New_takes_on_XT-I?= =?UTF-8?Q?DE=2C_a_new_FDC=2C_and_a_new_CM/S_GA?= =?UTF-8?Q?L___?= Message-ID: <014001d4982e$f0b02420$d2106c60$@net> >No, the CCIV initially had a plain-jane Intel rev 0 82077AA in a 68 pin >PLCC. After Intel "improved" the chip to the 82077AA-1, FM ceased to >work. Fortunately, as I mentioned NSC 8477 is a plug-in replacement, >with the exception of not needing an extra external cap (the pin is NC >on the National chip). Chuck, I read through the thread at VCF and see that the 8473 is not drop-in swappable with the 8477. One more question on the 8477 do you know if there is a significant difference between the 8477AV and the 8477BV revision? Thanks. -Ali From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 00:58:08 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 00:58:08 -0600 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <01AD6923-4063-41B2-9536-B24DD417942C@gmail.com> >> SGI desktops made for home use, > > Whoah whoah whoah, what? > > SGI made home computers?! I don't know that I saw a reply to this but I'm guessing the reference is the SGI Indy? And maybe indigo could count as well for smaller systems that could fit on a desk instead of desk-side models. From microtechdart at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 01:53:52 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 23:53:52 -0800 Subject: TSC Assembler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, thank you for this thoughtful response. hand-punching is no small thing. That is amazing dedication, and from what I know of you, I am not at all surprised... Yes, it was absolutely an assembler for the 6800 processor. Thanks for mentioning the cassette for the Altair, that would be super retro-geeky cool to play with...but yes, this is an extremely busy season for most, if not all of us. It looks like Monty McGraw might have come through with something, so let's check out his page suggestion. Thank you! On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 3:44 AM Bill Degnan wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 4:46 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Hi, all. >> >> Would anyone here happen to have access to the original early 80s binary >> files to to run TSC Assembler? >> >> http://bit.ly/2rLsORe >> >> I'm looking for the vintage software that this document refers to: TSC >> Floating Point Package by Technical Systems Consultants. >> >> I know there's a fair number of more modern assemblers that will >> accomplish >> essentially the same thing (LWASM, A09, etc), but I was curious to see, >> and >> play with, the old-school version of this on one of my vintage machines... >> >> Thanks, everyone! >> AJ >> >> -- >> >> Thanks, >> AJ Palmgren >> > > AJ .. I did not read the code to determine for myself but what is the > processor / instruction set that goes with the TSC assembler, 6800? I once > hand punched the entire TSC BASIC to a papertape so it could be read into > an Altair 680 via Teletype. Given the date on the assembler, and their > BASIC, it is very possible that at that time TSC sold an assembler for the > 6800 then. It should not take long to determine what instruction set your > TSC doc pertains to. I might have it in cassette for the Altair but I am > kind of busy to archive it unless no one has it otherwise. Busy time of > the year. > > Bill > >> -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From microtechdart at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 01:59:05 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 23:59:05 -0800 Subject: TSC Assembler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Monty, thank you so much for this! I believe this is exactly what I was hoping to find. I'll report back once I get the right vintage machine set up to run these .dsk images, and see what they do... I think I can run them directly on my HXC floppy disk emulator, without having to write them to vintage physical media, if I don't want to... That is a really fantastic device. Thank you again! On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 4:53 AM Monty McGraw wrote: > Bill, > > Check out this website - he has lots of TSC and other 6800 software for > the SWTPC and an emulator. > > http://www.evenson-consulting.com/swtpc/fufu_downloads.htm > > Monty McGraw (Tektronix 4052 and working 4054A computers) > > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 5:44 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 4:46 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, all. >> > >> > Would anyone here happen to have access to the original early 80s binary >> > files to to run TSC Assembler? >> > >> > http://bit.ly/2rLsORe >> > >> > I'm looking for the vintage software that this document refers to: TSC >> > Floating Point Package by Technical Systems Consultants. >> > >> > I know there's a fair number of more modern assemblers that will >> accomplish >> > essentially the same thing (LWASM, A09, etc), but I was curious to see, >> and >> > play with, the old-school version of this on one of my vintage >> machines... >> > >> > Thanks, everyone! >> > AJ >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Thanks, >> > AJ Palmgren >> > >> >> AJ .. I did not read the code to determine for myself but what is the >> processor / instruction set that goes with the TSC assembler, 6800? I once >> hand punched the entire TSC BASIC to a papertape so it could be read into >> an Altair 680 via Teletype. Given the date on the assembler, and their >> BASIC, it is very possible that at that time TSC sold an assembler for the >> 6800 then. It should not take long to determine what instruction set your >> TSC doc pertains to. I might have it in cassette for the Altair but I am >> kind of busy to archive it unless no one has it otherwise. Busy time of >> the year. >> >> Bill >> >> > >> > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Dec 20 02:17:41 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 03:17:41 -0500 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <167c5a8040a-2961-6b6@webjas-vaa148.srv.aolmail.net> <9A71EA72-F462-400B-A23A-C1523D308E0C@avanthar.com> <6f0df94a-517a-39df-69d2-d58ce6654a9f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <9bc9a0f6-dcd0-950d-3908-527aee491b43@e-bbes.com> On 2018-12-19 16:06, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 12/19/18 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>> I still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department >> On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> Pretty sure that's the one.? Got stuff piled on it at the moment >>> so I can't read the model number. >> >> An inherent design problem with flatbed scanners! >> >> In the college computer lab, we put a plexiglass pyramid on top of the >> lid of the scanner as the only way to keep it from being used as a table >> and shelf. >> > > So true. > > I just wish I could find the sheet feeder for it. We never bought > it and I have never seen on eBay or anything. I got mine on ebay, and there is one now ... From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Dec 20 04:18:49 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 10:18:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <013201d49814$b5d6d430$21847c90$@net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <20181219110934.GA24086@mooli.org.uk> <891d4c61-ed3e-e5ee-eb8e-4b97579f301e@sydex.com> <013201d49814$b5d6d430$21847c90$@net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Ali wrote: > > I don't know how functional their solutions are and I've never had any > > of > > their products nor I have anything to do with them, but I've had this > > link: in my bookmarks just in case since > > 2005. > > I guess if they have been in that business for so long now, they must > > have > > been doing things right. > > I can tell you for a fact that they do NOT support DMA so a non-starter for > many things..... What kind of DMA though: ISA bus mastering or the Intel 8237 data mover? Or neither? Either way, quite disappointing -- it all should be pretty easy to reproduce with modern circuitry. The software side is another matter however -- x86 real-mode OS drivers should be easy to run virtualised, but other environments are a tad more difficult to emulate. Maciej From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 04:40:12 2018 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 05:40:12 -0500 Subject: TSC Assembler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi AJ, I also have some TSC documentation here that you might find useful including the TSC Assembler System 1.4 source code and the TSC Disassembler too. http://vintagecomputer.ca/files/SWTPC/ Hope this helps. Santo On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 3:21 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Bill, thank you for this thoughtful response. hand-punching is no small > thing. That is amazing dedication, and from what I know of you, I am not > at all surprised... > > Yes, it was absolutely an assembler for the 6800 processor. > > Thanks for mentioning the cassette for the Altair, that would be super > retro-geeky cool to play with...but yes, this is an extremely busy season > for most, if not all of us. > > It looks like Monty McGraw might have come through with something, so let's > check out his page suggestion. > > Thank you! > > > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 3:44 AM Bill Degnan wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 4:46 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > >> Hi, all. > >> > >> Would anyone here happen to have access to the original early 80s binary > >> files to to run TSC Assembler? > >> > >> http://bit.ly/2rLsORe > >> > >> I'm looking for the vintage software that this document refers to: TSC > >> Floating Point Package by Technical Systems Consultants. > >> > >> I know there's a fair number of more modern assemblers that will > >> accomplish > >> essentially the same thing (LWASM, A09, etc), but I was curious to see, > >> and > >> play with, the old-school version of this on one of my vintage > machines... > >> > >> Thanks, everyone! > >> AJ > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Thanks, > >> AJ Palmgren > >> > > > > AJ .. I did not read the code to determine for myself but what is the > > processor / instruction set that goes with the TSC assembler, 6800? I > once > > hand punched the entire TSC BASIC to a papertape so it could be read into > > an Altair 680 via Teletype. Given the date on the assembler, and their > > BASIC, it is very possible that at that time TSC sold an assembler for > the > > 6800 then. It should not take long to determine what instruction set > your > > TSC doc pertains to. I might have it in cassette for the Altair but I am > > kind of busy to archive it unless no one has it otherwise. Busy time of > > the year. > > > > Bill > > > >> > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Dec 20 06:54:06 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 06:54:06 -0600 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <01AD6923-4063-41B2-9536-B24DD417942C@gmail.com> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> <01AD6923-4063-41B2-9536-B24DD417942C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20181220125520.75E6E4E88E@mx2.ezwind.net> At 12:58 AM 12/20/2018, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: >> >> SGI made home computers?! > >I don't know that I saw a reply to this but I'm guessing the reference is the SGI Indy? Home computers that were ten times the price of other home computers? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Dec 20 06:55:41 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 06:55:41 -0600 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <167c7c7d666-5fa3-c88@webjas-vab127.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <20181220125608.B769A27413@mx1.ezwind.net> At 02:07 PM 12/19/2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >The Epson V850-Pro does pretty good at 8x10, and produces scans capable of being printed at about 30???x40???. I *WISH* I could scan my 11x14 negatives. Stitching several scans together isn't possible? - John From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 07:06:23 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:06:23 +0100 Subject: HP C36xx and C37xx RAM kit - 4Gbyte In-Reply-To: <20181220125608.B769A27413@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <167c7c7d666-5fa3-c88@webjas-vab127.srv.aolmail.net> <20181220125608.B769A27413@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: hi I have 4 ram modules for sale, 1Gbyte each, 4Gbyte in total I am asking 20 Euro + S/H. Located in Italy. I also have an HP715 EISA expansion board and an HP712 PSU let me know if someone needs/wants them From robert626001 at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 07:09:57 2018 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 07:09:57 -0600 Subject: Old HP stuff In-Reply-To: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: If we're making a list, I need an HP 8120-4098 interconnect cable for 9836C to monitor. I'm also looking for a keyboard for a 9816, but that's a much longer shot... Thanks -- Robert On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 8:54 AM Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > Thanks for all the replies! Based on the responses I got, this is the > specific request list that I just emailed him: > > > > anything HP 1000 related is interesting. HP 2100, HP 21MX 2113 2117, > A-Series A400 A600 A700 A900 A990, etc. > > > > are all 21MX/2100-series: > > HP 12908A Writable Control Store Interface Kit (PCA 12908-60002) HP 12908B > Writable Control Store Interface Kit (PCA 12908-60006) HP 12908-60003 Jumper > Board Assembly HP 12908-60005 Backplane Jumper Assembly HP 12908-60008 > Jumper Board Assembly > > HP 12978A Writable Control Store (PCA 12978-60006) HP 12978-60006 Jumper > Cable Assembly > > HP 02100-60018 Cable Assembly (need two!) HP 02100-60052 Connector Assembly > > > > an HP HIL mouse (so not PS/2), preferably 3-button > > > > HP apollo 735/125 power supply part # 0950-2081 (Astec). It comes from a > workstation, A2608A or A2841A > > > > HP 9000, whether it's the /200, /300, /400, /700, or /800 series > > > > The prices I see for this equipment online are stiff! May I assume (and yes, > I know what that spells) that you guys are looking for machines in the sub > $200 class, not $2000 like some sites have posted? Equipment from the > recycler is so much cheaper, but strictly as-is. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 07:45:51 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:45:51 +0100 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: to whom is interested, on DTB we are building an x11 xterminal the project is on the way, we work on it during our free time http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/reloaded/bazaar/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=133&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=bec4d2c3f3035b37eade96fbcd3efff3 =) From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 07:49:22 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 07:49:22 -0600 Subject: TSC Assembler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Santo, What a treasure trove of 6800 information! I just started looking at your site - although I haven't found the TSC assembler source code file yet. I could not read the code in your file "Article Introducing the 6800 Disassembler". I found a much better scan of that article on archive.org: https://archive.org/details/Kilobaud197707, very readable and very useful! I've been looking for 6800 programs to run on my Tektronix 4054A computer - that although it has a bit-slice microprocessor, the microcode supports the complete 6800 8-bit opcodes and adds 16-bit for floating point, 16-bit registers and supports 16-bit address space with 128KB of memory, 64KB for the BASIC ROMs and 64KB for RAM. It uses the 6800 SWI instruction in user space assembly code programs in RAM to access ROM global entry points - so I can't use 6800 programs that include SWI without changing that code. Monty On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 5:06 AM Santo Nucifora via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi AJ, > > I also have some TSC documentation here that you might find useful > including the TSC Assembler System 1.4 source code and the TSC Disassembler > too. > > http://vintagecomputer.ca/files/SWTPC/ > > Hope this helps. > Santo > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 3:21 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Bill, thank you for this thoughtful response. hand-punching is no small > > thing. That is amazing dedication, and from what I know of you, I am not > > at all surprised... > > > > Yes, it was absolutely an assembler for the 6800 processor. > > > > Thanks for mentioning the cassette for the Altair, that would be super > > retro-geeky cool to play with...but yes, this is an extremely busy season > > for most, if not all of us. > > > > It looks like Monty McGraw might have come through with something, so > let's > > check out his page suggestion. > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 3:44 AM Bill Degnan > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 4:46 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > > >> Hi, all. > > >> > > >> Would anyone here happen to have access to the original early 80s > binary > > >> files to to run TSC Assembler? > > >> > > >> http://bit.ly/2rLsORe > > >> > > >> I'm looking for the vintage software that this document refers to: > TSC > > >> Floating Point Package by Technical Systems Consultants. > > >> > > >> I know there's a fair number of more modern assemblers that will > > >> accomplish > > >> essentially the same thing (LWASM, A09, etc), but I was curious to > see, > > >> and > > >> play with, the old-school version of this on one of my vintage > > machines... > > >> > > >> Thanks, everyone! > > >> AJ > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> AJ Palmgren > > >> > > > > > > AJ .. I did not read the code to determine for myself but what is the > > > processor / instruction set that goes with the TSC assembler, 6800? I > > once > > > hand punched the entire TSC BASIC to a papertape so it could be read > into > > > an Altair 680 via Teletype. Given the date on the assembler, and their > > > BASIC, it is very possible that at that time TSC sold an assembler for > > the > > > 6800 then. It should not take long to determine what instruction set > > your > > > TSC doc pertains to. I might have it in cassette for the Altair but I > am > > > kind of busy to archive it unless no one has it otherwise. Busy time > of > > > the year. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > >> > > > > -- > > > > Thanks, > > AJ Palmgren > > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com > > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 20 08:13:38 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 06:13:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT - CNC - Re: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: <301a62da-556d-b992-269c-859842a46957@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> <301a62da-556d-b992-269c-859842a46957@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > Since talk has drifted to CNC, you can easily use this cheap North > American unit (Waterloo, Canada) for plotting -- it's one of their > demos. I'm tempted to get one for PCBs and other things. > > I'm not affiliated but the people behind this are great (and sometimes > hiring): > > https://sienci.com/product/sienci-mill-one-kit-v3/ These guys were at MRRF (Midwest RepRap Festival - if you're interested in 3D printing, you MUST go! It's a free event) last year or the year before. Nice bunch. The company name is pronounced the same way you'd say "CNC" (SeeEnSee) :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 08:16:46 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 08:16:46 -0600 Subject: TSC Assembler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Santo, I finally got down to the TSC 6800 Assembler source file on your site :) Lots of great information on 6800 to digest! Thanks, Monty On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 7:49 AM Monty McGraw wrote: > Santo, > > What a treasure trove of 6800 information! > > I just started looking at your site - although I haven't found the TSC > assembler source code file yet. > > I could not read the code in your file "Article Introducing the 6800 > Disassembler". > I found a much better scan of that article on archive.org: > https://archive.org/details/Kilobaud197707, very readable and very useful! > > I've been looking for 6800 programs to run on my Tektronix 4054A computer > - that although it has a bit-slice microprocessor, the microcode supports > the complete 6800 8-bit opcodes and adds 16-bit for floating point, 16-bit > registers and supports 16-bit address space with 128KB of memory, 64KB for > the BASIC ROMs and 64KB for RAM. It uses the 6800 SWI instruction in user > space assembly code programs in RAM to access ROM global entry points - so > I can't use 6800 programs that include SWI without changing that code. > > Monty > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 5:06 AM Santo Nucifora via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi AJ, >> >> I also have some TSC documentation here that you might find useful >> including the TSC Assembler System 1.4 source code and the TSC >> Disassembler >> too. >> >> http://vintagecomputer.ca/files/SWTPC/ >> >> Hope this helps. >> Santo >> >> On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 3:21 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > Bill, thank you for this thoughtful response. hand-punching is no small >> > thing. That is amazing dedication, and from what I know of you, I am >> not >> > at all surprised... >> > >> > Yes, it was absolutely an assembler for the 6800 processor. >> > >> > Thanks for mentioning the cassette for the Altair, that would be super >> > retro-geeky cool to play with...but yes, this is an extremely busy >> season >> > for most, if not all of us. >> > >> > It looks like Monty McGraw might have come through with something, so >> let's >> > check out his page suggestion. >> > >> > Thank you! >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 3:44 AM Bill Degnan >> wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 4:46 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < >> > > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: >> > > >> > >> Hi, all. >> > >> >> > >> Would anyone here happen to have access to the original early 80s >> binary >> > >> files to to run TSC Assembler? >> > >> >> > >> http://bit.ly/2rLsORe >> > >> >> > >> I'm looking for the vintage software that this document refers to: >> TSC >> > >> Floating Point Package by Technical Systems Consultants. >> > >> >> > >> I know there's a fair number of more modern assemblers that will >> > >> accomplish >> > >> essentially the same thing (LWASM, A09, etc), but I was curious to >> see, >> > >> and >> > >> play with, the old-school version of this on one of my vintage >> > machines... >> > >> >> > >> Thanks, everyone! >> > >> AJ >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> >> > >> Thanks, >> > >> AJ Palmgren >> > >> >> > > >> > > AJ .. I did not read the code to determine for myself but what is the >> > > processor / instruction set that goes with the TSC assembler, 6800? I >> > once >> > > hand punched the entire TSC BASIC to a papertape so it could be read >> into >> > > an Altair 680 via Teletype. Given the date on the assembler, and >> their >> > > BASIC, it is very possible that at that time TSC sold an assembler for >> > the >> > > 6800 then. It should not take long to determine what instruction set >> > your >> > > TSC doc pertains to. I might have it in cassette for the Altair but >> I am >> > > kind of busy to archive it unless no one has it otherwise. Busy time >> of >> > > the year. >> > > >> > > Bill >> > > >> > >> >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Thanks, >> > AJ Palmgren >> > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck >> > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com >> > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 >> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ >> > >> > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 20 08:24:55 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 06:24:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT RE: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <001201d497e7$66146840$323d38c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Jay West wrote: >> Some are casting metal parts by 3d printing molds. > > Besides printing molds, I have heard that there is now a filament available > that can be melted out/away, for a variant of lost-wax [sandbox?] casting. > Hit YouTube and search for "Lost PLA casting". People are making some pretty cool things that way. You can also print with machinable wax: https://www.machinablewax.com/product.php?product=52 and do the same thing. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Dec 20 10:55:56 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 08:55:56 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <20181220125608.B769A27413@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <167c7c7d666-5fa3-c88@webjas-vab127.srv.aolmail.net> <20181220125608.B769A27413@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 20, 2018, at 4:55 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > At 02:07 PM 12/19/2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> The Epson V850-Pro does pretty good at 8x10, and produces scans capable of being printed at about 30???x40???. I *WISH* I could scan my 11x14 negatives. > > Stitching several scans together isn't possible? > > - John The quality would be questionable, since you can?t get it totally flat and 11x14 negatives are pretty thick. Also, I?m not going to risk damaging negatives whose primary purpose is in creating darkroom prints. If I have one that I really need to make a large digital print from, I?ll spend the $$$?s to get a drum scan done. For something like my stack of DEC printsets, stitching would be an option. Another option is a lightbox and a digital camera (at which point stitching is an option). Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 20 11:02:30 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:02:30 -0800 Subject: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> Isn't there some place this could go on a web page? there isn't much chance of someone trolling a mailing list after the first day or two of the post appearing Sellam seems to have come up with something with his Google spreadsheet. I don't know if something like that would be practical if a large number of people were adding/removing things On 12/20/18 5:09 AM, Robert via cctalk wrote: > If we're making a list, I need an HP 8120-4098 interconnect cable for > 9836C to monitor. > > I'm also looking for a keyboard for a 9816, but that's a much longer shot... > > Thanks > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 20 11:10:17 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:10:17 -0800 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: ? buy a Neoware thin client for the box and power supply, and throw away the pcb if you really want to do your own board https://www.ebay.com/itm/Neoware-CA9-100-240-V-50-60-Hz-USED/222928084229 On 12/20/18 5:45 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > to whom is interested, on DTB we are building an x11 xterminal From sales at elecplus.com Thu Dec 20 11:12:48 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:12:48 -0600 Subject: Sperry, Focus, IBM, and Chicony keyboards added Message-ID: <010c01d49887$3bcca020$b365e060$@com> Sperry UTS 400 keyboard from 1984 https://www.elecshopper.com/sperry-uts-400-keyboard-used-1984.html Chicony KKB-5161 White Alps https://www.elecshopper.com/chicony-kb-5161-keyboard.html Focus FK-2001 complete and tested https://www.elecshopper.com/focus-fk-2001-keyboard-tested.html Focus FK-2001 for parts https://www.elecshopper.com/focus-fk-2001-keyboard-for-parts-or-repair.html IBM 1394012 terminal keyboard, refurbished https://www.elecshopper.com/ibm-1394012-terminal-keyboard.html Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Dec 20 11:21:03 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 12:21:03 -0500 Subject: hp 9816 keyboards Message-ID: <3b5bba43-8dd9-251e-984d-05384a915462@e-bbes.com> Always wanted to have one, but they never come with a keyboard :( Anybody ever made a converter to PS/2 for it? So it could be used, until I find a REAL keyboard? Or will the keyboards never show up? Then a PS/2 converter is probably a smart thing anyway? Cheers & thanks! From sales at elecplus.com Thu Dec 20 11:25:57 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:25:57 -0600 Subject: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) In-Reply-To: <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> Done! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Gqr3JHyV1bJGFZE7oaFkEVqRnl79ZvE54NVIy3YdikA/edit?usp=sharing Fill it out as you think of stuff, and I will share it with the dealers. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 11:03 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) Isn't there some place this could go on a web page? there isn't much chance of someone trolling a mailing list after the first day or two of the post appearing Sellam seems to have come up with something with his Google spreadsheet. I don't know if something like that would be practical if a large number of people were adding/removing things On 12/20/18 5:09 AM, Robert via cctalk wrote: > If we're making a list, I need an HP 8120-4098 interconnect cable for > 9836C to monitor. > > I'm also looking for a keyboard for a 9816, but that's a much longer shot... > > Thanks > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 20 11:28:12 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:28:12 -0800 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_=e2=97=beNSC_8477_Was=3a_New_takes_on_XT-IDE=2c_a_n?= =?UTF-8?Q?ew_FDC=2c_and_a_new_CM/S_GAL?= In-Reply-To: <014001d4982e$f0b02420$d2106c60$@net> References: <014001d4982e$f0b02420$d2106c60$@net> Message-ID: On 12/19/18 10:40 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> No, the CCIV initially had a plain-jane Intel rev 0 82077AA in a 68 pin >> PLCC. After Intel "improved" the chip to the 82077AA-1, FM ceased to >> work. Fortunately, as I mentioned NSC 8477 is a plug-in replacement, >> with the exception of not needing an extra external cap (the pin is NC >> on the National chip). > > Chuck, > > I read through the thread at VCF and see that the 8473 is not drop-in swappable with the 8477. One more question on the 8477 do you know if there is a significant difference between the 8477AV and the 8477BV revision? Thanks. No, I'm not aware of any specifics. Both versions have worked for me. --CHuck From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 11:36:20 2018 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 12:36:20 -0500 Subject: TSC Assembler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Monty, Glad your found it useful. All of these documents were scanned from the documentation I have. That article was definitely a bad photocopy to start with but I'll leave it up and if anyone asks, I can point them to that July 77 issue of Kilobaud. Thanks for sending the link! Santo On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 9:16 AM Monty McGraw wrote: > Santo, > > I finally got down to the TSC 6800 Assembler source file on your site :) > Lots of great information on 6800 to digest! > > Thanks, > Monty > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 7:49 AM Monty McGraw wrote: > >> Santo, >> >> What a treasure trove of 6800 information! >> >> I just started looking at your site - although I haven't found the TSC >> assembler source code file yet. >> >> I could not read the code in your file "Article Introducing the 6800 >> Disassembler". >> I found a much better scan of that article on archive.org: >> https://archive.org/details/Kilobaud197707, very readable and very >> useful! >> >> I've been looking for 6800 programs to run on my Tektronix 4054A computer >> - that although it has a bit-slice microprocessor, the microcode supports >> the complete 6800 8-bit opcodes and adds 16-bit for floating point, 16-bit >> registers and supports 16-bit address space with 128KB of memory, 64KB for >> the BASIC ROMs and 64KB for RAM. It uses the 6800 SWI instruction in user >> space assembly code programs in RAM to access ROM global entry points - so >> I can't use 6800 programs that include SWI without changing that code. >> >> Monty >> >> On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 5:06 AM Santo Nucifora via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi AJ, >>> >>> I also have some TSC documentation here that you might find useful >>> including the TSC Assembler System 1.4 source code and the TSC >>> Disassembler >>> too. >>> >>> http://vintagecomputer.ca/files/SWTPC/ >>> >>> Hope this helps. >>> Santo >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 3:21 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> > Bill, thank you for this thoughtful response. hand-punching is no >>> small >>> > thing. That is amazing dedication, and from what I know of you, I am >>> not >>> > at all surprised... >>> > >>> > Yes, it was absolutely an assembler for the 6800 processor. >>> > >>> > Thanks for mentioning the cassette for the Altair, that would be super >>> > retro-geeky cool to play with...but yes, this is an extremely busy >>> season >>> > for most, if not all of us. >>> > >>> > It looks like Monty McGraw might have come through with something, so >>> let's >>> > check out his page suggestion. >>> > >>> > Thank you! >>> > >>> > >>> > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 3:44 AM Bill Degnan >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 4:46 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < >>> > > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> Hi, all. >>> > >> >>> > >> Would anyone here happen to have access to the original early 80s >>> binary >>> > >> files to to run TSC Assembler? >>> > >> >>> > >> http://bit.ly/2rLsORe >>> > >> >>> > >> I'm looking for the vintage software that this document refers to: >>> TSC >>> > >> Floating Point Package by Technical Systems Consultants. >>> > >> >>> > >> I know there's a fair number of more modern assemblers that will >>> > >> accomplish >>> > >> essentially the same thing (LWASM, A09, etc), but I was curious to >>> see, >>> > >> and >>> > >> play with, the old-school version of this on one of my vintage >>> > machines... >>> > >> >>> > >> Thanks, everyone! >>> > >> AJ >>> > >> >>> > >> -- >>> > >> >>> > >> Thanks, >>> > >> AJ Palmgren >>> > >> >>> > > >>> > > AJ .. I did not read the code to determine for myself but what is the >>> > > processor / instruction set that goes with the TSC assembler, 6800? I >>> > once >>> > > hand punched the entire TSC BASIC to a papertape so it could be read >>> into >>> > > an Altair 680 via Teletype. Given the date on the assembler, and >>> their >>> > > BASIC, it is very possible that at that time TSC sold an assembler >>> for >>> > the >>> > > 6800 then. It should not take long to determine what instruction set >>> > your >>> > > TSC doc pertains to. I might have it in cassette for the Altair but >>> I am >>> > > kind of busy to archive it unless no one has it otherwise. Busy >>> time of >>> > > the year. >>> > > >>> > > Bill >>> > > >>> > >> >>> > >>> > -- >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > AJ Palmgren >>> > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck >>> > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com >>> > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 >>> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ >>> > >>> >> From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 11:40:36 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:40:36 +0000 Subject: hp 9816 keyboards In-Reply-To: <3b5bba43-8dd9-251e-984d-05384a915462@e-bbes.com> References: <3b5bba43-8dd9-251e-984d-05384a915462@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 5:21 PM emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > Always wanted to have one, but they never come with a keyboard :( Mine did, albeit with a couple of keycaps missing. But the keyboard swithes are mechanically indentical to those on a VT52 and I had a spare keyboard PCB from that terminal. I borrowed the keycaps from that. They don't look right (the HP keycaps are odd) but it works. > > Anybody ever made a converter to PS/2 for it? So it could be used, until > I find a REAL keyboard? Or will the keyboards never show up? There is nothing at all custom in the keyboard. It's all standard 4000-series CMOS logic. So you could make an exact copy, or re-implement the design in whatever way you wanted. An adapter for another keyboard would mean you wouldn't have the twiddleknob, but is that a major problem? -tony From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 12:01:27 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:01:27 +0100 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: are you kidding or what? we know there are x11 terminals on eBay, we own several Tektronics XP217 and we owned a couple of HP Xterms, but this project is made for fun don't waste other people's projects for your stupidity! Il giorno gio 20 dic 2018 alle ore 18:10 Al Kossow via cctalk ha scritto: > > ? > > buy a Neoware thin client for the box and power supply, and throw away the pcb > if you really want to do your own board > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Neoware-CA9-100-240-V-50-60-Hz-USED/222928084229 > > > On 12/20/18 5:45 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > to whom is interested, on DTB we are building an x11 xterminal > From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 12:02:25 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:02:25 -0500 Subject: TSC Assembler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some of that TSC stuff was thought lost, so great to see. Like I said I have a few cassettes I need to archive. Put it on my list. Bill On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 12:56 PM Santo Nucifora via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Monty, > > Glad your found it useful. All of these documents were scanned from the > documentation I have. That article was definitely a bad photocopy to start > with but I'll leave it up and if anyone asks, I can point them to that July > 77 issue of Kilobaud. Thanks for sending the link! > > Santo > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 9:16 AM Monty McGraw wrote: > > > Santo, > > > > I finally got down to the TSC 6800 Assembler source file on your site :) > > Lots of great information on 6800 to digest! > > > > Thanks, > > Monty > > > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 7:49 AM Monty McGraw > wrote: > > > >> Santo, > >> > >> What a treasure trove of 6800 information! > >> > >> I just started looking at your site - although I haven't found the TSC > >> assembler source code file yet. > >> > >> I could not read the code in your file "Article Introducing the 6800 > >> Disassembler". > >> I found a much better scan of that article on archive.org: > >> https://archive.org/details/Kilobaud197707, very readable and very > >> useful! > >> > >> I've been looking for 6800 programs to run on my Tektronix 4054A > computer > >> - that although it has a bit-slice microprocessor, the microcode > supports > >> the complete 6800 8-bit opcodes and adds 16-bit for floating point, > 16-bit > >> registers and supports 16-bit address space with 128KB of memory, 64KB > for > >> the BASIC ROMs and 64KB for RAM. It uses the 6800 SWI instruction in > user > >> space assembly code programs in RAM to access ROM global entry points - > so > >> I can't use 6800 programs that include SWI without changing that code. > >> > >> Monty > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 5:06 AM Santo Nucifora via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi AJ, > >>> > >>> I also have some TSC documentation here that you might find useful > >>> including the TSC Assembler System 1.4 source code and the TSC > >>> Disassembler > >>> too. > >>> > >>> http://vintagecomputer.ca/files/SWTPC/ > >>> > >>> Hope this helps. > >>> Santo > >>> > >>> On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 3:21 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < > >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> > Bill, thank you for this thoughtful response. hand-punching is no > >>> small > >>> > thing. That is amazing dedication, and from what I know of you, I am > >>> not > >>> > at all surprised... > >>> > > >>> > Yes, it was absolutely an assembler for the 6800 processor. > >>> > > >>> > Thanks for mentioning the cassette for the Altair, that would be > super > >>> > retro-geeky cool to play with...but yes, this is an extremely busy > >>> season > >>> > for most, if not all of us. > >>> > > >>> > It looks like Monty McGraw might have come through with something, so > >>> let's > >>> > check out his page suggestion. > >>> > > >>> > Thank you! > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 3:44 AM Bill Degnan > >>> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 4:46 AM AJ Palmgren via cctalk < > >>> > > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > >> Hi, all. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Would anyone here happen to have access to the original early 80s > >>> binary > >>> > >> files to to run TSC Assembler? > >>> > >> > >>> > >> http://bit.ly/2rLsORe > >>> > >> > >>> > >> I'm looking for the vintage software that this document refers to: > >>> TSC > >>> > >> Floating Point Package by Technical Systems Consultants. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> I know there's a fair number of more modern assemblers that will > >>> > >> accomplish > >>> > >> essentially the same thing (LWASM, A09, etc), but I was curious to > >>> see, > >>> > >> and > >>> > >> play with, the old-school version of this on one of my vintage > >>> > machines... > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Thanks, everyone! > >>> > >> AJ > >>> > >> > >>> > >> -- > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Thanks, > >>> > >> AJ Palmgren > >>> > >> > >>> > > > >>> > > AJ .. I did not read the code to determine for myself but what is > the > >>> > > processor / instruction set that goes with the TSC assembler, > 6800? I > >>> > once > >>> > > hand punched the entire TSC BASIC to a papertape so it could be > read > >>> into > >>> > > an Altair 680 via Teletype. Given the date on the assembler, and > >>> their > >>> > > BASIC, it is very possible that at that time TSC sold an assembler > >>> for > >>> > the > >>> > > 6800 then. It should not take long to determine what instruction > set > >>> > your > >>> > > TSC doc pertains to. I might have it in cassette for the Altair > but > >>> I am > >>> > > kind of busy to archive it unless no one has it otherwise. Busy > >>> time of > >>> > > the year. > >>> > > > >>> > > Bill > >>> > > > >>> > >> > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > > >>> > Thanks, > >>> > AJ Palmgren > >>> > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > >>> > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com > >>> > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > >>> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > >>> > > >>> > >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 20 12:26:55 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 10:26:55 -0800 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: On 12/20/18 10:01 AM, Carlo Pisani wrote: > don't waste other people's projects for your stupidity! you're the one who sliced open their finger, asshat From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 12:38:28 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:38:28 +0100 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: > > don't waste other people's projects for your stupidity! > you're the one who sliced open their finger, asshat ok, enjoy the ignore list, I have no time to waste with idiots like you From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 12:46:04 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:46:04 +0100 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: The prototype (1) is already working; in the pic, there is a DHT board with a Matrox Millennium video card, and a PCI-PS/2 card. The pic shows a running windows manager on x11. we are using a little PowerPC 405GP board, loaded with Linux and xorg-x11. The processor's ISA is similar to a G3 CPU, but not exactly equal. We had to create a specific toolchain for it. The rootfs is derived from Gentoo/Linux by using Catalyst on QEMU/PPC. It's neat enough, and the whole process is under control (we can choose flags, and rebuild the whole accordingly) Currently, the only problem we have is related to the kernel, specifically to support DeviceTree and the 405 CPU which has a weird address alignment, thus it wastes a lot of cycles in kernel space. If someone has experience with this CPU, we are open to hints and tips. (1) http://93.55.217.0/wonderland/chunk_of/stuff/public/projects/sonoko-x11/node-board/dht-proto-1.png From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Dec 20 12:48:15 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:48:15 -0700 Subject: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) In-Reply-To: <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> Message-ID: <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/20/2018 10:25 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > Fill it out as you think of stuff, and I will share it with the dealers. I may be odd, but I'd be interested in Cindy / Electronics Plus leveraging their existing mailing list. Assuming that it's Mailman (I don't remember) I'd be curious to see categories that are brand names, and possibly sub-categories that are model lines. That way people could subscribe to the list and pick the categories they are interested in receiving announcements to. I think it would also give Cindy / Electronics Plus some indication of what brand / model like people are interested in. Just a thought. ?\_(?)_/? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 12:50:54 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:50:54 +0100 Subject: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) In-Reply-To: <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Isn't there some place this could go on a web page? there is DTB! http://www.downthebunker.xyz/ user subscriptions are now manually (due too trolls and a lot of spammers), thus if someone needs/wants an account, he/she can email me directly and I will add it properly From sales at elecplus.com Thu Dec 20 12:57:44 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 12:57:44 -0600 Subject: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) In-Reply-To: <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> Message-ID: <01a701d49895$e4bd7e80$ae387b80$@com> I just realized I set the sharing to view only. Sorry about that! It is now set to edit. Add/change columns, whatever is needed. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 11:26 AM To: 'Al Kossow'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) Done! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Gqr3JHyV1bJGFZE7oaFkEVqRnl79ZvE54NVIy3YdikA/edit?usp=sharing Fill it out as you think of stuff, and I will share it with the dealers. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 11:03 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) Isn't there some place this could go on a web page? there isn't much chance of someone trolling a mailing list after the first day or two of the post appearing Sellam seems to have come up with something with his Google spreadsheet. I don't know if something like that would be practical if a large number of people were adding/removing things On 12/20/18 5:09 AM, Robert via cctalk wrote: > If we're making a list, I need an HP 8120-4098 interconnect cable for > 9836C to monitor. > > I'm also looking for a keyboard for a 9816, but that's a much longer shot... > > Thanks > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Dec 20 12:57:48 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:57:48 -0700 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: On 12/20/2018 11:46 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > The prototype (1) is already working; in the pic, there is a DHT board > with a Matrox Millennium video card, and a PCI-PS/2 card. The pic shows > a running windows manager on x11. :-) > we are using a little PowerPC 405GP board, loaded with Linux and > xorg-x11. The processor's ISA is similar to a G3 CPU, but not exactly > equal. We had to create a specific toolchain for it. Can I ask why you are using the board that you are using? Is this project to use something you have and make it useful? Or is it meant for others to be able to replicate? If it's the latter, I'd think that a board that's inexpensive and easy for people to get their hands on would be appropriate. (Maybe the board you are using is and I'm just ignorant of that fact.) I hate to be cliche, but it seems like a Raspberry Pi (et al) qualifies here. It also seems like it has keyboard / mouse / video ports already. (All be it different incarnations there of.) > The rootfs is derived from Gentoo/Linux by using Catalyst on QEMU/PPC. > It's neat enough, and the whole process is under control (we can choose > flags, and rebuild the whole accordingly) :-) > Currently, the only problem we have is related to the kernel, specifically > to support DeviceTree and the 405 CPU which has a weird address alignment, > thus it wastes a lot of cycles in kernel space. :-( -- Grant. . . . unix || die From sales at elecplus.com Thu Dec 20 12:58:31 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 12:58:31 -0600 Subject: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) In-Reply-To: <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> Message-ID: <01a801d49896$00540650$00fc12f0$@com> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Gqr3JHyV1bJGFZE7oaFkEVqRnl79ZvE54NVIy3YdikA/edit?usp=sharing New link with edits enabled. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 11:26 AM To: 'Al Kossow'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) Done! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Gqr3JHyV1bJGFZE7oaFkEVqRnl79ZvE54NVIy3YdikA/edit?usp=sharing Fill it out as you think of stuff, and I will share it with the dealers. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 11:03 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) Isn't there some place this could go on a web page? there isn't much chance of someone trolling a mailing list after the first day or two of the post appearing Sellam seems to have come up with something with his Google spreadsheet. I don't know if something like that would be practical if a large number of people were adding/removing things On 12/20/18 5:09 AM, Robert via cctalk wrote: > If we're making a list, I need an HP 8120-4098 interconnect cable for > 9836C to monitor. > > I'm also looking for a keyboard for a 9816, but that's a much longer shot... > > Thanks > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Thu Dec 20 13:05:29 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:05:29 -0600 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Interesting thought! I don't send newsletters, or bother people in any way. I hate getting spam. I encourage people to use the RSS feeds https://elecshopper.com/rss/ If you like, you can change the spreadsheet to say "Items Wanted" instead of "HP Items Wanted" and change the column headers accordingly. Whatever you guys are looking for, I am willing to try and hunt. I belong to 2 subscription broadcast services for dealers, and I regularly email almost 500 recyclers for stuff. Just let me know. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 12:48 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) On 12/20/2018 10:25 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > Fill it out as you think of stuff, and I will share it with the dealers. I may be odd, but I'd be interested in Cindy / Electronics Plus leveraging their existing mailing list. Assuming that it's Mailman (I don't remember) I'd be curious to see categories that are brand names, and possibly sub-categories that are model lines. That way people could subscribe to the list and pick the categories they are interested in receiving announcements to. I think it would also give Cindy / Electronics Plus some indication of what brand / model like people are interested in. Just a thought. ?\_(?)_/? -- Grant. . . . unix || die --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 14:00:27 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:00:27 +0100 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: > Can I ask why you are using the board that you are using? several reasons; we also use a similar board for a NAS, but basically, we like this board for the PCI bus, and for the JTAG we happen to have a BDI1000 JTAG ICE with a valid license for professional debugging software for the PPC/405, so it's really nice for us > Is this project to use something you have and make it useful? Or is it > meant for others to be able to replicate? dunno. For us it's useful, and it's a need since we really need three LCDs connected to two nodes through a KVM in both dual screens and Xinerama setup (it depends on the context). These two PowerPC nodes are also connected to a Routerboard (bought yesterday), thus the whole system is able to bootstrap, well balanced on its load, able to load its services and it's also independent of everything else on the lan. PowerPC boards are not able to bootstrap from a harddrive/pendrive (the kernel's driver for the pATA chip is bugged and doesn't work, the firmware is ... theoretically able to load a raw file from a pATA device), they need to bootstrap from the lan, and the Routerboard is able to provide a good tftpbootp server plus other services to accomplish the task. We are also developing a RFID card to unlock/lock the machine (still experimental, and we are going to use an old 68HC11 board for this ... it's 80s technology) It's really a funny project made recycling old parts, and an old Apple PowerMac chassis. We also really like manually making parts, without a 3D printer. If you look at parts for the PSU, they were manually made by engraving the plastic! This is part of the fun :D anyway, I believe the system can be replicated with modern technology, say ... two or three RPIs in a modern case made by a 3D printer. > If it's the latter, I'd think that a board that's inexpensive and easy well, we have a job in avionics, where PPC boards are used. We bought years ago a couple of boards from Newark and they were 1900 euro each, plus fees and S/H (FeDex). Two years ago, I sold the last "codename eBony" (PowerPC460) couple of boards to a company in China for a super discount (500 euro both/second hand, instead of 1600 each/brand new). The DHT-boards that we are using are derived from a similar expensive board. There was a company in 2001 who made them, but ... it's difficult to find one nowadays. We had 2 little DTH boards in stock, and we decided to use for a personal project since they are definitively EOL once and forever and we don't want to support them in 2019. Again, the RPI is the super cheap choice since it's easy to be found (e.g. you can buy from RS, Mouser, et al), and it only costs around 30 euro. > I hate to be cliche, but it seems like a Raspberry Pi (et al) qualifies > here. It also seems like it has keyboard / mouse / video ports already. > (All be it different incarnations there of.) RPI is USB driven, not a problem, modern keyboards and mouses are USB, our is PS/2 but there are USB-to-PS/2 adapter for 5-10 Euro; The RPI is not VGA, it's HDMI, but yet again it's not a problem, there are VGA adapters (HDMI to VGA) for the RPI and VGA modules for the expansion port. This can be evaluated. For a classic design (the 90s and 2000s design), we want to use VGA LCDs, VGA KVM, and PCI_VGA video adapters. > > Currently, the only problem we have is related to the kernel, specifically > > to support DeviceTree and the 405 CPU which has a weird address alignment, > > thus it wastes a lot of cycles in kernel space. > > :-( yup, we are alone. I have already posted on the Linux mail-list, still no answer. Not a problem, it simply requires more time. From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 14:03:25 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:03:25 +0100 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: ok, I give up. a forum with a bazaar should be more appropriate frankly this mail list looks like spam, and it's going irritating since it's difficult to follow and to handle but I am really tired to repeat myself about the http://www.downthebunker.xyz/ project probably in 2019 we will definitively close it to new members, and that's all. Il giorno gio 20 dic 2018 alle ore 20:05 Electronics Plus via cctalk ha scritto: > > Interesting thought! > I don't send newsletters, or bother people in any way. I hate getting spam. > I encourage people to use the RSS feeds https://elecshopper.com/rss/ > If you like, you can change the spreadsheet to say "Items Wanted" instead of "HP Items Wanted" and change the column headers accordingly. > Whatever you guys are looking for, I am willing to try and hunt. > I belong to 2 subscription broadcast services for dealers, and I regularly email almost 500 recyclers for stuff. > Just let me know. > > Cindy > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 12:48 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) > > On 12/20/2018 10:25 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > Fill it out as you think of stuff, and I will share it with the dealers. > > I may be odd, but I'd be interested in Cindy / Electronics Plus > leveraging their existing mailing list. > > Assuming that it's Mailman (I don't remember) I'd be curious to see > categories that are brand names, and possibly sub-categories that are > model lines. > > That way people could subscribe to the list and pick the categories they > are interested in receiving announcements to. > > I think it would also give Cindy / Electronics Plus some indication of > what brand / model like people are interested in. > > Just a thought. ?\_(?)_/? > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 14:30:17 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:30:17 +0100 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <01AD6923-4063-41B2-9536-B24DD417942C@gmail.com> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <20181219115134.GB24086@mooli.org.uk> <01AD6923-4063-41B2-9536-B24DD417942C@gmail.com> Message-ID: SGI made MIPS, ITANIUM, and X86 workstations, servers, and personal workstations low price MIPS workstations: SGI INDY, SGI O2 The SGI Indigo2 was very very expensive, especially the "Purple Impact" See on YouTube, there is an episode made by a dude called "LGR" SGI also made Pentium3 workstations. These run WindowsNT. Not so expensive, but not so cheap. Il giorno gio 20 dic 2018 alle ore 21:26 Sam O'nella via cctalk ha scritto: > > > >> SGI desktops made for home use, > > > > Whoah whoah whoah, what? > > > > SGI made home computers?! > > I don't know that I saw a reply to this but I'm guessing the reference is the SGI Indy? And maybe indigo could count as well for smaller systems that could fit on a desk instead of desk-side models. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 20 14:38:27 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:38:27 -0600 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: <002d01d498a3$f61353e0$e239fba0$@classiccmp.org> Carlo, I apologize that this list is difficult to follow and looks like spam to you. I'm not sure how to help you if that is your position. I do suggest that you and Al work things out off-list so that things stay amicable here ;) J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Carlo Pisani via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 12:38 PM To: Al Kossow ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made > > don't waste other people's projects for your stupidity! > you're the one who sliced open their finger, asshat ok, enjoy the ignore list, I have no time to waste with idiots like you From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 20 15:44:54 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:44:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2018, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > ok, I give up. \o/ > a forum with a bazaar should be more appropriate > frankly this mail list looks like spam, and it's going irritating > since it's difficult to follow and to handle > How about you not join a nearly 20 year old mailing list and start insulting people, most of which have probably been in the computer industry longer than you've been alive? > probably in 2019 we will definitively close it to new members, and > that's all. tl;dr: "imma taking my ball and going home!" g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 15:50:30 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 22:50:30 +0100 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: > How about you not join a nearly 20 year old mailing list and start > insulting people, most of which have probably been in the computer > industry longer than you've been alive? insulting? I posted a link to a project just to share the fun and I got suggested to drop it, which is extremely rude and irritating. Besides, I suggest and offered free space when here you are all claiming that it's difficult to follow posts about things and parts, and yet again I got a figurative finger so don't try to drag me down on your cliche' From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 15:55:29 2018 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 15:55:29 -0600 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 2:03 PM Carlo Pisani via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > ok, I give up. > a forum with a bazaar should be more appropriate > frankly this mail list looks like spam, and it's going irritating > since it's difficult to follow and to handle > > but I am really tired to repeat myself about the > http://www.downthebunker.xyz/ project > > probably in 2019 we will definitively close it to new members, and that's > all. I guess I might as well ask, since I've been wondering: What does the name "downthebunker" mean? Is it a reference to something? I'm not even sure how a bunker could be gone "down" (unlike in the case of, say, a street, a beach, the block, etc.). And why the .xyz TLD? I don't know much about it but it always looks really sketchy to me. -- Eric Christopherson From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 20 16:11:41 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:11:41 -0600 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: <003801d498b0$fc30f540$f492dfc0$@classiccmp.org> This is not a peeing contest. Not concerned about who started it nor who said something last. Everyone drop the angst, keep it amicable. J From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 16:22:50 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 23:22:50 +0100 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: > I guess I might as well ask, since I've been wondering: What does the name > "downthebunker" mean? > Is it a reference to something? I'm not even sure how a bunker could be gone "down" the computer room is located 10 meters underground in a room which looks like a mini bunker. But it's not relevant, it's just a name for a website. > And why the .xyz TLD? I don't know much about it > but it always looks really sketchy to me. When you put a server to the internet you have an IP and you want to be reached by an URL you have to pay someone for the service. We found a cheap service offering a domain, and the "xyz," is what they offered for the lowest price possible (10 euro/year) since dot com and dot org cost more money (50-100 or more). We already pay for the electricity and we are not hosting any advertising service, thus .. a cheap domain is what we consider "good" for us. What is really worrying is the number of spammers attacking the server(1) and the fact that people are not seriously using a resource, sometimes for the reason that we are obliged to declare the GPDR agreement, or for the reason, we are not offering HTTPS. Some of these guys are on facebook where they claim the platform is even more difficult to be used for the purpose of discussing things rather than ... watching a gallery of pics And some of them still want a bazaar, sort of (person-to-person) way to sell/buy/trade retro computer stuff, but then they only go to the eBay, complaining that it's too expensive for both the seller and the buyer (due to the money you have to give to eBay, I guess). That's the time it was, funny and weird at the same time. (1) this caused a few services to be dropped, e.g. we needed to drop the MessageWall because it was bombarded by spam and trolling. MessageWall was implemented in PHP by us and it was not so robust, therefore we are now limiting the usage and offering a chat channel on Discord which is more robust and managed by others. From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Dec 20 16:46:51 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:46:51 +1100 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 09:03 PM 20/12/2018 +0100, Carlo Pisani wrote: >ok, I give up. >a forum with a bazaar should be more appropriate >frankly this mail list looks like spam, and it's going irritating >since it's difficult to follow and to handle True. I don't have time to read all messages either. Haven't yet looked into the archive, and if it's searchable. >but I am really tired to repeat myself about the >http://www.downthebunker.xyz/ project > >probably in 2019 we will definitively close it to new members, and that's all. This site looks interesting. But after looking for basic expected things like 'make new account', login, etc and not finding them, I tried "New Red Pill?" and discover it's about making an account. And it's closed. Are you complaining about lack of participation in the site? While not accepting new members? Where have you announced it? I'll post about it on eevblog forum (46000 members worldwide) if you will open membership first. Also I'd suggest not being so obscure with titles and headings. Sure they are cute, but it doesn't help newcomers understand how the site works. Especially if English is not their first language. I too want a web forum venue for hunting, acquiring and dispersing vintage computing gear, with a restoration/collector slant, ie not about the money, ie I'm poor, ha ha. A mailing list is NOT an appropriate context. It has no categories, is ephemeral, chews local storage, has no hot-linking, and demands more real-time attention than I can spare. eevblog gets close, but misses the mark: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/ Not focussed on vintage computing, no subcategories. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/vintage-computing/ Not focussed on buy/sell/swap/give. Guy >Il giorno gio 20 dic 2018 alle ore 20:05 Electronics Plus via cctalk > ha scritto: >> >> Interesting thought! >> I don't send newsletters, or bother people in any way. I hate getting spam. >> I encourage people to use the RSS feeds https://elecshopper.com/rss/ >> If you like, you can change the spreadsheet to say "Items Wanted" instead of "HP Items Wanted" and change the column headers accordingly. >> Whatever you guys are looking for, I am willing to try and hunt. >> I belong to 2 subscription broadcast services for dealers, and I regularly email almost 500 recyclers for stuff. >> Just let me know. >> >> Cindy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via cctalk >> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 12:48 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) >> >> On 12/20/2018 10:25 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: >> > Fill it out as you think of stuff, and I will share it with the dealers. >> >> I may be odd, but I'd be interested in Cindy / Electronics Plus >> leveraging their existing mailing list. >> >> Assuming that it's Mailman (I don't remember) I'd be curious to see >> categories that are brand names, and possibly sub-categories that are >> model lines. >> >> That way people could subscribe to the list and pick the categories they >> are interested in receiving announcements to. >> >> I think it would also give Cindy / Electronics Plus some indication of >> what brand / model like people are interested in. >> >> Just a thought. ??\_(???)_/?? >> >> >> >> -- >> Grant. . . . >> unix || die >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Dec 20 16:52:39 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 15:52:39 -0700 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: On 12/20/2018 01:00 PM, Carlo Pisani wrote: > several reasons; we also use a similar board for a NAS, but basically, > we like this board for the PCI bus, and for the JTAG Okay. > we happen to have a BDI1000 JTAG ICE with a valid license for professional > debugging software for the PPC/405, so it's really nice for us That sounds like a compelling reason to use board(s) compatible with the software. > dunno. For us it's useful, and it's a need since we really need three > LCDs connected to two nodes through a KVM in both dual screens and > Xinerama setup (it depends on the context). These two PowerPC nodes > are also connected to a Routerboard (bought yesterday), thus the whole > system is able to bootstrap, well balanced on its load, able to load > its services and it's also independent of everything else on the lan. Okay. > PowerPC boards are not able to bootstrap from a harddrive/pendrive > (the kernel's driver for the pATA chip is bugged and doesn't work, > the firmware is ... theoretically able to load a raw file from a > pATA device), they need to bootstrap from the lan, and the Routerboard is > able to provide a good tftpbootp server plus other services to accomplish > the task. Intriguing. What is the native OS, storage, and boot method for this board? It sounds like you might be purposing it for your own desires with a close but not perfect match. > We are also developing a RFID card to unlock/lock the machine (still > experimental, and we are going to use an old 68HC11 board for this ... > it's 80s technology) Are you developing your own technology? Or are you re-using standard technology that's been around for a while? I think Sun (and others) had X terminals that had smart card slots in them. This sounds functionally quite similar, just a few substitutions. > It's really a funny project made recycling old parts, and an old Apple > PowerMac chassis. We also really like manually making parts, without a > 3D printer. If you look at parts for the PSU, they were manually made > by engraving the plastic! This is part of the fun :D Fair enough. > anyway, I believe the system can be replicated with modern technology, > say ... two or three RPIs in a modern case made by a 3D printer. *nod* That in and of itself does not make what you're doing bad or a waste of time. IMHO if you're having fun (other than injuries), learning, reducing ewaste by reusing things you have, well that all sounds good to me. > well, we have a job in avionics, where PPC boards are used. We bought > years ago a couple of boards from Newark and they were 1900 euro each, > plus fees and S/H (FeDex). Wow. Based on the conversion that I just did, those weren't anywhere near inexpensive. > Two years ago, I sold the last "codename eBony" (PowerPC460) couple of > boards to a company in China for a super discount (500 euro both/second > hand, instead of 1600 each/brand new). The DHT-boards that we are using > are derived from a similar expensive board. There was a company in 2001 > who made them, but ... it's difficult to find one nowadays. We had 2 > little DTH boards in stock, and we decided to use for a personal project > since they are definitively EOL once and forever and we don't want to > support them in 2019. Sounds like salvage parts to play with to me. > Again, the RPI is the super cheap choice since it's easy to be found > (e.g. you can buy from RS, Mouser, et al), and it only costs around > 30 euro. *nod* > RPI is USB driven, not a problem, modern keyboards and mouses are USB, > our is PS/2 but there are USB-to-PS/2 adapter for 5-10 Euro; The RPI > is not VGA, it's HDMI, but yet again it's not a problem, there are VGA > adapters (HDMI to VGA) for the RPI and VGA modules for the expansion > port. This can be evaluated. ACK > For a classic design (the 90s and 2000s design), we want to use VGA LCDs, > VGA KVM, and PCI_VGA video adapters. Fair enough. > yup, we are alone. I have already posted on the Linux mail-list, still > no answer. /Which/ Linux mailing list. There are *many*. > Not a problem, it simply requires more time. :-) I was sort of asking because part of me would like to build something that looks like a DEC vt420 with a look alike (but physically smaller) case with an LCD (?) display. I've thought about running a Pi and running XTerm. But that's a pipe dream project for some other time. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 20 17:00:30 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 15:00:30 -0800 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 12/20/18 2:46 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > I too want a web forum venue for hunting, acquiring and dispersing vintage computing gear, with > a restoration/collector slant, ie not about the money, ie I'm poor, ha ha. http://www.vcfed.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?28-Vintage-Computer-Items-For-Sale-or-Trade From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Dec 20 17:06:53 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:06:53 -0700 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 12/20/2018 03:46 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > I too want a web forum venue for hunting, acquiring and dispersing > vintage computing gear, with a restoration/collector slant, ie not about > the money, ie I'm poor, ha ha. A mailing list is NOT an appropriate > context. It has no categories, is ephemeral, chews local storage, has > no hot-linking, and demands more real-time attention than I can spare. Is there really a dearth of satisfactory locations for people to swap / trade / buy / sell computer equipment? I've not seriously looked. But I feel like this should have been solved already. Maybe it has an the typical places are running people off or otherwise unappealing. What would people want in such a swap-n-shop? In some ways it's a basic inventory management system, with the ability for people to add their own listings. I feel like the community could likely benefit from an associated forum to discuss things without bogging down the business transactions. I would want it easy to search and find things, or possibly even register as being interested in being notified when someone lists something for sale in the future. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Dec 20 17:20:07 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:20:07 +1100 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181221102007.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 10:50 PM 20/12/2018 +0100, you wrote: >> How about you not join a nearly 20 year old mailing list and start >> insulting people, most of which have probably been in the computer >> industry longer than you've been alive? > >insulting? I posted a link to a project just to share the fun and I >got suggested to drop it, which is extremely rude and irritating. >Besides, I suggest and offered free space when here you are all >claiming that it's difficult to follow posts about things and parts, >and yet again I got a figurative finger > >so don't try to drag me down on your cliche' You should relax. Take it easy. Your http://www.downthebunker.xyz/ site has a lot of promise, but starting any such project is hard. Plus retrocomputing definitely has a relatively small interest group, so don't expect a huge wave of users. But two things are not helping. One is your site's idiosyncratic nomenclature. From the domain name, title logo, 'create account', much seems chosen to be more clever than informative. I'd suggest being more boring but helpful. You. I've only read 2 or 3 posts by you, and already get the impression you are too sensitive and ready to get your back up. You're here in a forum of mostly tetchy old greybeards. (I'm one.) To quote your own site's user agreement: R E S P E C T ! No one here intends to insult you. But few are going to ignore a hostile and argumentative attitude. Chill. The text you replied to above is NOT a 'figurative finger', it's wise advice, just phrased in a direct manner. You are creating conflict where there was none. You should know the rule with online discussion: there's no emotive feedback, and written text often doesn't come out exactly as intended. So allow a much wider margin of acceptance than in a f2f conversation. tl;dr: Chill. Guy From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 17:58:38 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 00:58:38 +0100 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: > > We are also developing a RFID card to unlock/lock the machine (still > > experimental, and we are going to use an old 68HC11 board for this ... > > it's 80s technology) > > Are you developing your own technology? Or are you re-using standard > technology that's been around for a while? our own technology. RFID at 125Khz. We already have a prototype. A good occasion to play with analogic electronics and also a good occasion to use ICC11 v6.5 on a HC11 board, and ICC11 was a good C compiler in the 90s. (we are also supporting gcc-11, but it's ... not so good) > I think Sun (and others) had X terminals that had smart card slots in > them. This sounds functionally quite similar, just a few substitutions. yup, SunRay uses a smart-card, but it's not contactless, and it's a true-smart card, whose protocol looks not so funny to play with (except if you are paid for doing it). SmartCards are safer anyway We want to use RFID Smartcard-shaped cards. The looks like a credit card, but they have an RFID capsule inside. Therefore we only need a coil to read it. Simply, and funny. this (1) a commercial product you can use as a reference ... the chip is a common avr8 (1) http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/chunk_of/stuff/public/projects/sonoko-x11/rfid/hz1050/ > That in and of itself does not make what you're doing bad or a waste of > time IMHO if you're having fun (other than injuries), learning, reducing > ewaste by reusing things you have, well that all sounds good to me. Precisely! We neither have a CNC, nor a 3D printer, and we want to recycle polycarbonate frames. We got a lot of industrial waste. It would be a shame trashing them. > I was sort of asking because part of me would like to build something > that looks like a DEC vt420 with a look alike (but physically smaller) > case with an LCD (?) display. I've thought about running a Pi and > running XTerm. But that's a pipe dream project for some other time. it can be done easily. Our boards run U-BOOT as firmware, and Linux as the kernel. On your RPI you just need to manage a custom kernel on a custom rootfs. There is a Dude on the internet offering a small Indigo1 case with a LinuxBoard inside. It's a cool project. The case is 3D printed. The only "tricky" part is setting the builder. We chose catalyst because we also support Gentoo on MIPS4, MIPS32, HPPA2, PPCBE, thus it's a "natural" choice, but there are also builders like Angstrom and OpenWRT which allow you to have ucLibc and similar. We are using glibc just for our convenience (since we already have a working and tested glibc-profile) Anyway, we'd like to have a nice WindowsManager. We are using "mwm" which is super light and very classic (my Tektronix XP217 uses it), but we are going to evaluate "fvwm": it seems it's light but offering good "visual features"; we'd like to reconfigure it with the look&feel of 4DWM (SGI IRIX) ... maybe it's possible, who knows :D From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 18:12:12 2018 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:12:12 -0600 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 4:23 PM Carlo Pisani wrote: > > I guess I might as well ask, since I've been wondering: What does the > name > > "downthebunker" mean? > > Is it a reference to something? I'm not even sure how a bunker could be > gone "down" > > the computer room is located 10 meters underground in a room which > looks like a mini bunker. But it's not relevant, it's just a name for > a website. > OK, so it's down *to* the bunker or down *in* the bunker. I'm just asking because of my language geekery. I still don't know, though, whether "down the bunker" without a preposition is idiomatic in some dialect of English I don't speak fluently. I just know some UK English speakers pronounce "down to the/down at the" ALMOST the same as "down the", but I believe there's still a glottal stop in the former but not the latter. > > > And why the .xyz TLD? I don't know much about it > > but it always looks really sketchy to me. > > When you put a server to the internet you have an IP and you want to > be reached by an URL you have to pay someone for the service. We found > a cheap service offering a domain, and the "xyz," is what they offered > for the lowest price possible (10 euro/year) since dot com and dot org > cost more money (50-100 or more). > Wow. Maybe domain registration is a lot more in the EU; here you can have it for $8.88/yr. That's not with hosting, though; I don't know who does your hosting. -- Eric Christopherson From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Dec 20 18:30:26 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:30:26 -0500 Subject: OT - CNC - Re: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update In-Reply-To: References: <5B449A770E1A3823@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <16411FE1-8520-4841-8A7E-E958BAF611D1@avanthar.com> <3b8dde53-6daa-7d5e-09d1-8831fa2b9b8f@charter.net> <4B7B0ECD-0303-4EEA-ACFD-38302AC43507@avanthar.com> <37ffe1de-fa17-94e7-058f-2cdc3cc3de72@e-bbes.com> <301a62da-556d-b992-269c-859842a46957@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <8c48581b-09bf-09ab-3848-bf22168a3d4a@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-12-19 5:32 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > >> On Dec 19, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> >> Since talk has drifted to CNC, you can easily use this cheap North >> American unit (Waterloo, Canada) for plotting -- it's one of their >> demos. I'm tempted to get one for PCBs and other things. >> >> I'm not affiliated but the people behind this are great (and sometimes >> hiring): >> >> https://sienci.com/product/sienci-mill-one-kit-v3/ >> >> --Toby > > Now we?re talking! In many ways, this would be more useful, for me than a 3D printer. I need to spend some time reading their website. > Agreed. Looks like I wasn't the only one curious about putting a laser on it: https://twitter.com/SienciLabs/status/1075902435942653954 --Toby > Zane > > > > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Dec 20 19:07:10 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:07:10 -0800 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: <501D5BCC-11BC-4A22-8CE6-AE6DBA629684@eschatologist.net> On Dec 20, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > a forum with a bazaar should be more appropriate > frankly this mail list looks like spam, and it's going irritating > since it's difficult to follow and to handle What do you mean by this? Do you mean you would prefer to visit a web page to read the latest posts on cctalk rather than have them delivered to you via email? I often find it fascinating that people talk about email lists as if they?re some huge inconvenience or imposition. Just set up rules to file them to their own mailboxes, read them when you feel like it, they work great. -- Chris -- who does have some preference for news over mailing lists for group discussion From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Dec 20 19:59:38 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:59:38 -0800 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: <501D5BCC-11BC-4A22-8CE6-AE6DBA629684@eschatologist.net> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <501D5BCC-11BC-4A22-8CE6-AE6DBA629684@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <3FC424AE-83D8-4A01-B231-D0F94E35C749@avanthar.com> > On Dec 20, 2018, at 5:07 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > > I often find it fascinating that people talk about email lists as if they?re some huge inconvenience or imposition. Just set up rules to file them to their own mailboxes, read them when you feel like it, they work great. Websites are a huge inconvenience or imposition, email lists are not. Sadly we live in an age where email is used less and less. Thought not that you?d know it by the amount of CLASSICCMP traffic the last couple days. :-) I mean, good grief, even I?m actively responding on a couple threads. How often does that happen anymore? Zane From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 20 20:05:33 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:05:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Want/Available list Message-ID: <20181221020533.CDB8B18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Hanson > Do you mean you would prefer to visit a web page to read the latest > posts on cctalk rather than have them delivered to you via email? Hey, that's how I read CCTalk: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ I don't want all this cruft clogging up my inbox. Noel From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Dec 20 20:27:05 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:27:05 -0700 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: <3FC424AE-83D8-4A01-B231-D0F94E35C749@avanthar.com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <501D5BCC-11BC-4A22-8CE6-AE6DBA629684@eschatologist.net> <3FC424AE-83D8-4A01-B231-D0F94E35C749@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 12/20/18 6:59 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Websites are a huge inconvenience or imposition, email lists are not. I like Usenet too. I really like all three to be the same content. That way people can participate what ever way they like best. > Sadly we live in an age where email is used less and less. I think at least part of that is because a lot of people naively think that email is for communicating with friends that don't use the same social media and is otherwise generally broadcast only. A lot of people I talk to don't view email as interactive communications / dialog. In my not so humble opinion, that's their loss. > Thought not that you?d know it by the amount of CLASSICCMP traffic the > last couple days. :-) I mean, good grief, even I?m actively responding > on a couple threads. How often does that happen anymore? ~chuckle~ -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Dec 20 20:28:26 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:28:26 -0700 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: <20181221020533.CDB8B18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181221020533.CDB8B18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1d397218-1d0c-9d65-92b5-629fac11e759@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/20/18 7:05 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Hey, that's how I read CCTalk: That's your choice. And you should have that choice available. > I don't want all this cruft clogging up my inbox. Who does want it to land in the Inbox? I have all of my mailing lists land in folders specific to the list. Rules are your friend. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From spc at conman.org Thu Dec 20 21:52:52 2018 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 22:52:52 -0500 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: <501D5BCC-11BC-4A22-8CE6-AE6DBA629684@eschatologist.net> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <501D5BCC-11BC-4A22-8CE6-AE6DBA629684@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <20181221035252.GH19866@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chris Hanson via cctalk once stated: > On Dec 20, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > > > a forum with a bazaar should be more appropriate > > frankly this mail list looks like spam, and it's going irritating > > since it's difficult to follow and to handle > > What do you mean by this? Do you mean you would prefer to visit a web page > to read the latest posts on cctalk rather than have them delivered to you > via email? > > I often find it fascinating that people talk about email lists as if > they?re some huge inconvenience or imposition. Just set up rules to file > them to their own mailboxes, read them when you feel like it, they work > great. You are assuming they are using software that allows filtering, and that they know about the filtering capability. Also, there are people who consider one email per week as being "way too busy---stop sending so much". -spc (Then there are the people who consider email as a To-Do list, you seriously use email for *communication?* How quaint ... ) From Michael at jongleur.co.uk Thu Dec 20 16:14:48 2018 From: Michael at jongleur.co.uk (Michael Mulhern) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:14:48 +1100 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: Aren?t bunkers under, beneath, below? For me I go DOWN to the 8BitBunker, as it downstairs, carved back into the sandstone under the house, and capped with a concrete slab. Can?t get too much more down and/or bunkerish than that ;) //m On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 at 8:55 am, Eric Christopherson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 2:03 PM Carlo Pisani via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > ok, I give up. > > a forum with a bazaar should be more appropriate > > frankly this mail list looks like spam, and it's going irritating > > since it's difficult to follow and to handle > > > > but I am really tired to repeat myself about the > > http://www.downthebunker.xyz/ project > > > > probably in 2019 we will definitively close it to new members, and that's > > all. > > > I guess I might as well ask, since I've been wondering: What does the name > "downthebunker" mean? Is it a reference to something? I'm not even sure how > a bunker could be gone "down" (unlike in the case of, say, a street, a > beach, the block, etc.). And why the .xyz TLD? I don't know much about it > but it always looks really sketchy to me. > > -- > Eric Christopherson > -- *Blog: RetroRetrospective ? Fun today with yesterday's gear??.. * *Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host) From Michael at jongleur.co.uk Thu Dec 20 16:26:47 2018 From: Michael at jongleur.co.uk (Michael Mulhern) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:26:47 +1100 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: Ok, I?m jealous. 10m down. Looks like I?ll have excavate a sub-bunker beneath the 8BitBunker. I?ll check out your site later. //m On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 at 9:23 am, Carlo Pisani via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I guess I might as well ask, since I've been wondering: What does the > name > > "downthebunker" mean? > > Is it a reference to something? I'm not even sure how a bunker could be > gone "down" > > the computer room is located 10 meters underground in a room which > looks like a mini bunker. But it's not relevant, it's just a name for > a website. > > > And why the .xyz TLD? I don't know much about it > > but it always looks really sketchy to me. > > When you put a server to the internet you have an IP and you want to > be reached by an URL you have to pay someone for the service. We found > a cheap service offering a domain, and the "xyz," is what they offered > for the lowest price possible (10 euro/year) since dot com and dot org > cost more money (50-100 or more). > > We already pay for the electricity and we are not hosting any > advertising service, thus .. a cheap domain is what we consider "good" > for us. > > What is really worrying is the number of spammers attacking the > server(1) and the fact that people are not seriously using a resource, > sometimes for the reason that we are obliged to declare the GPDR > agreement, or for the reason, we are not offering HTTPS. > > Some of these guys are on facebook where they claim the platform is > even more difficult to be used for the purpose of discussing things > rather than ... watching a gallery of pics > > And some of them still want a bazaar, sort of (person-to-person) way > to sell/buy/trade retro computer stuff, but then they only go to the > eBay, complaining that it's too expensive for both the seller and the > buyer (due to the money you have to give to eBay, I guess). > > That's the time it was, funny and weird at the same time. > > (1) this caused a few services to be dropped, e.g. we needed to drop > the MessageWall because it was bombarded by spam and trolling. > MessageWall was implemented in PHP by us and it was not so robust, > therefore we are now limiting the usage and offering a chat channel on > Discord which is more robust and managed by others. > -- *Blog: RetroRetrospective ? Fun today with yesterday's gear??.. * *Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host) From jim.manley at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 02:07:38 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 01:07:38 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <4ed98a60-fd56-bccf-abf2-bae24fdbeeff@comcast.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <4ed98a60-fd56-bccf-abf2-bae24fdbeeff@comcast.net> Message-ID: I teach 7th - 12th grade Science (all of them) and Computing at a very rural Little Red Brick K-12 Schoolhouse beyond The Middle of Nowhere in Montana. Even waaaaaay out here, there are kids who just love, love, love retro 80s games, and no, emulators will not cut it, thank you very much. We recently received a graciously-donated SX-64 (a Commodore 64 with a color display, keyboard, floppy disk drive, etc., integrated in a box), and the kids stand in line waiting excitedly to run simulations (some might incorrectly confuse them with games) and create sonic renderings (again, some might confuse this with playing music). The system came with a C Power compiler, assembler, and linker, and the built-in BASIC has plenty of capabilities to enable students to create pretty much anything they can imagine. I acquired a second SX-64 that, despite a somewhat wonky keyboard, is just as popular as the first one we received. A really well-designed and executed game will be a hit, even with chunky, clunky graphics with only 16 colors, half of which are black, and goofy, calliope-like music! Text-based games based on great stories still have rabid fans, with new audiences as each successive generation that discovers them. Photorealistic graphics tend to highlight flaws in 3-D models, such as eyes that don't seem to be looking in quite the right directions to represent focus at an appropriate point. Our visual system craves matching what we're currently seeing with what we recall seeing before, and even tiny dissonances get our acute attention. This detracts from playability by being a major distraction, even if it's happening at a subconscious level. Great stories transcend much-less-than-perfect special effects, precisely because they allow the players' imaginations to fill in the missing pieces. The fans of retro games want to escape the virtual reality of high-resolution graphics and all of the gore that's typically associated with it. The results of the desensitization of young people through realistic-looking violence and, frankly, pornography, are pretty clear from the suicide, mass shooting, and sexual assault statistics and headlines. From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 03:18:48 2018 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:18:48 +0100 Subject: P112 redesigned for Z280? In-Reply-To: <9f05db1a-79db-2ddb-f083-eda90c6655bf@cox.net> References: <9f05db1a-79db-2ddb-f083-eda90c6655bf@cox.net> Message-ID: > On 12/12/18 6:58 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > > That's got me thinking... Suppose I redesign the P112 board to take a > > Z280 CPU. Would you guys go for it? I'd like to come up with a way > > to use a socketed CPU or put a surface-mounted chip on a carrier board > > to allow greater versatility with playing with different Zilog chips. I would be interested. I have a few Z280 laying around (the ones that go into a socket). From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 04:49:36 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 11:49:36 +0100 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? Message-ID: There is an auction for some kind of early DEC module. It appears to be a bit slice of MB, AR and MQ. There is also a signature by Gordon Bell on the board. But I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-6205-Arithmetic-Registers-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/264093791320?hash=item3d7d377458:g:U2AAAOSwpTBcGULN The same seller has several other pre Flip-Chip modules like 4706 Teletype Receiver. If I read correctly the transistors are dated 1963-1964. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-4706C-8-Bit-Teletype-Receiver-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/323607301613?hash=item4b587f8ded:g:AMcAAOSwXF5cGUH9 From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Dec 21 04:33:50 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:33:50 +0000 (WET) Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01R12GRJLUOY8WVZCT@beyondthepale.ie> On Tue, 18 Dec 2018, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > > I also know that the DS20 mother boards had hardware on them such as USB > controllers and maybe SCSI controllers that were not supported by either > OS. > I recall having a retired DS20 doing light duties back at the office. It used to crash occasionally and somebody found it was still on the maintenance contract so we got the DEC (or whatever they were called that week) engineer to take a look at it. He declared that the internal disk being plugged into the onboard SCSI controller was the source of the problem because this configuration was not supported by VMS. We were somewhat surprised by this as we thought that "not supported" in this context meant that VMS probably didn't have a driver for the onboard controller at some point in the past but it must have been added since because it seemed to work fine when we tried it. There were no further problems after a PCI SCSI controller was added and the disk was plugged into this instead. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 21 05:03:36 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 11:03:36 +0000 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It could be a prototype that never made it to production, internal automated test gear or a bespoke job. Rod On 21/12/2018 10:49, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > There is an auction for some kind of early DEC module. It appears to be a > bit slice of MB, AR and MQ. There is also a signature by Gordon Bell on the > board. > > But I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-6205-Arithmetic-Registers-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/264093791320?hash=item3d7d377458:g:U2AAAOSwpTBcGULN > > The same seller has several other pre Flip-Chip modules like 4706 Teletype > Receiver. If I read correctly the transistors are dated 1963-1964. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-4706C-8-Bit-Teletype-Receiver-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/323607301613?hash=item4b587f8ded:g:AMcAAOSwXF5cGUH9 -- From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Dec 21 04:59:04 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:59:04 +0000 (WET) Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: <01R12HAIQZBS8WVZCT@beyondthepale.ie> On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > > OK, so it's down *to* the bunker or down *in* the bunker. I'm just asking > because of my language geekery. I still don't know, though, whether "down > the bunker" without a preposition is idiomatic in some dialect of English I > don't speak fluently. I just know some UK English speakers pronounce "down > to the/down at the" ALMOST the same as "down the", but I believe there's > still a glottal stop in the former but not the latter. > How about: "There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis" Can we get back to the on-topic stuff now :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 06:25:58 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:25:58 +0100 Subject: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) In-Reply-To: <01a801d49896$00540650$00fc12f0$@com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <01a801d49896$00540650$00fc12f0$@com> Message-ID: we are mirroring here (1) hope it helps (1) http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/reloaded/bazaar/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=202&sid=302117dda790dc697965820e0ad44f0e Il giorno gio 20 dic 2018 alle ore 19:58 Electronics Plus via cctalk ha scritto: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Gqr3JHyV1bJGFZE7oaFkEVqRnl79ZvE54NVIy3YdikA/edit?usp=sharing > > New link with edits enabled. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 11:26 AM > To: 'Al Kossow'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) > > Done! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Gqr3JHyV1bJGFZE7oaFkEVqRnl79ZvE54NVIy3YdikA/edit?usp=sharing > Fill it out as you think of stuff, and I will share it with the dealers. > > Cindy > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 11:03 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Want/Available list (was Re: Old HP stuff) > > Isn't there some place this could go on a web page? > > there isn't much chance of someone trolling a mailing list after the first day or two of the post appearing > > Sellam seems to have come up with something with his Google spreadsheet. I don't know if something like that > would be practical if a large number of people were adding/removing things > > > On 12/20/18 5:09 AM, Robert via cctalk wrote: > > If we're making a list, I need an HP 8120-4098 interconnect cable for > > 9836C to monitor. > > > > I'm also looking for a keyboard for a 9816, but that's a much longer shot... > > > > Thanks > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 06:58:30 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:58:30 +0100 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Den fre 21 dec. 2018 kl 12:03 skrev Rod Smallwood via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > It could be a prototype that never made it to production, internal > automated test gear or a bespoke job. > Do you know or just guessing? Why would it be some kind of test gear with a AR, MQ, and MB designation? I searched a bit more and the PDP-6 has exactly AR, MQ and MB registers. My guess it comes from a PDP-6 since it was not used in the PDP-1, PDP-4 and PDP-5 from looking in the maintenance manuals.. Then I found this manual: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp6/F-67_circuitInstr_May66.pdf Which confirms that is from a PDP-6. Page 3-13. It also makes sense since one of the other boards from the same seller has a tag on it which indicate PDP-6. Case closed.. > > Rod > > > On 21/12/2018 10:49, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > There is an auction for some kind of early DEC module. It appears to be a > > bit slice of MB, AR and MQ. There is also a signature by Gordon Bell on > the > > board. > > > > But I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from. > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-6205-Arithmetic-Registers-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/264093791320?hash=item3d7d377458:g:U2AAAOSwpTBcGULN > > > > The same seller has several other pre Flip-Chip modules like 4706 > Teletype > > Receiver. If I read correctly the transistors are dated 1963-1964. > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-4706C-8-Bit-Teletype-Receiver-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/323607301613?hash=item4b587f8ded:g:AMcAAOSwXF5cGUH9 > > -- > > > From kevin at 128.ca Fri Dec 21 07:06:18 2018 From: kevin at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:06:18 +0000 Subject: Pdp1 for mister fpga In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <9495BE97-CF33-41B0-89EF-3327E7955D42@128.ca> https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/FPG1_MiSTer Emulates pdp1 crt paper tape. Real fun. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 21 07:19:28 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 08:19:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? Message-ID: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from. They're called 'System Modules': http://gunkies.org/wiki/System_Module and they were used from the PDP-1 through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this PDP-7 internals image: https://www.soemtron.org/images/jpgs/decimages/sn113robertjohnson85680004.jpg seems to show System Modules at the top, and FLIP CHIPs at the bottom. (I'm pretty sure even the first PDP-8 - the 'straight 8' - uses only early FLIP CHIPs - transistorized ones.) The DEC brochure for it (P5141) is a little puzzling; it says (p. 2) that "INTEGRATED CIRCUITS are basic elements of the low cost, newly designed silicon FLIP CHIP modules used throughout PDP-7", but AFAIK, the first FLIP CHIPs (R-series, B-series, etc) were all transistors; the later M-series were the first ones to have ICs. Maybe this is some old meaning of "integrated circuits"? Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 21 07:24:50 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 08:24:50 -0500 Subject: Pdp1 for mister fpga In-Reply-To: <9495BE97-CF33-41B0-89EF-3327E7955D42@128.ca> References: <9495BE97-CF33-41B0-89EF-3327E7955D42@128.ca> Message-ID: <2ED2B967-F955-40C2-B518-CD4C2C4827FE@comcast.net> > On Dec 21, 2018, at 8:06 AM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > > > > https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/FPG1_MiSTer > > Emulates pdp1 crt paper tape. > > Real fun. That's an impressive piece of work. I've been thinking about emulating a CRT display in an FPGA, it's not a simple task but this project has delivered exactly that. Something like that might be interesting to LCM, to deliver a realistic DD60 display without needing to run the real (somewhat fragile) old hardware. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 21 07:25:39 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 07:25:39 -0600 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20181221133045.EE3914E87E@mx2.ezwind.net> At 04:49 AM 12/21/2018, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >There is an auction for some kind of early DEC module. It appears to be a >bit slice of MB, AR and MQ. There is also a signature by Gordon Bell on the >board. Back in 2006 I asked Gordon Bell to confirm the provenance of a similar board that I bought on eBay in 2001. See below. - John From: "Gordon Bell" To: "John Foust" Yes. I signed the PDP-6, 4 register, bit slice board in the photo. It came from the Computer Museum in Boston where it was sold in their store Let me be clear The Computer Museum (TCM) was NEVER called the Boston Computer Museum... Boston was a temporary home when computing passed through New England, but the city itself gave nothing to it. I don't believe the origin can be traced to any machine, since there were no serial numbers, and the modification level would also be too hard to correlate with any time or place. The Museum got a large number of spares and scraps of all kinds from Digital and it was undoubtedly one of those. To my knowledge, the museum has never engaged in gutting machines for components, although I would happily agree that this is a good idea when we have duplicates and crippled or partial artifacts. As a former collector, founder, and board member of the Digital Computer Museum > The Computer Museum >> current Computer History Museum (a name I deplore and that exists only because of the way the Museum left Boston) I have always been a strong advocate of getting as many artifacts into as many hands as possible, and this includes selling museum artifacts when appropriate. In essence a whole industry of museums and collectors is essential. Incidentally, at one point there was a flame in pre-blog days about the tragedy of the museum selling boards, etc. in which I never engaged. As someone who has contributed about $10 million as well as time, etc. to this endeavor, I can only shake my head... and wonder where those folks were when the museum needed their financial and time support. The lovely ending is that the museum finally has a wonderful home and caring environment with lots of people that support it with love, time, and money. Hope you have or intend to visit it in Mountain View. I trust I have your own financial support and trust you are a member there, too. See www.computerhistory.org g -----Original Message----- From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust at threedee.com] Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 1:31 AM To: Gordon Bell Subject: PDP-6 board from BCM? Can I confirm the provenance of an item I purchased? It's an S6205D board, signed by "Gordon Bell". Below is a Usenet post that may describe the event at the Boston Computer Museum where it was first sold. Did you sign this board, and do you remember the circumstances? - John Article 1624 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!lead.zk3.dec.com!zk2nws.zko.dec.com!denton.zko.dec.com!amartin From: amartin at denton.zko.dec.com (Alan H. Martin) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Date: 21 Feb 1996 13:12:21 GMT Organization: DEC Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4gf5nl$kun at zk2nws.zko.dec.com> References: <1996Feb14.164932.1 at eisner.decus.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: denton.zko.dec.com In article alderson at netcom.com writes: >In article <1996Feb14.164932.1 at eisner.decus.org> stevens_j at eisner.decus.org >(Jack H. Stevens) writes: ... >>How about trying The Computer Museum, in Boston? (also at http://www.tcm.org) > >Bad idea. The Computer Museum has buried any interesting (read "36-bit") >hardware. They were given, for example, the Stanford Artificial Intelligence >Laboratory PDP-6 in 1984, after it was shown at the Fall DECUS Symposia (for >the 20th Anniversary of 36-Bit Computing). > >It has never been made available for public view; as far as anyone can tell, >it has disappeared from the face of the earth. I'm hazy on dates, but if the 6 in question was donated before the museum's move from MR2 to Boston, you ain't likely to see it in one piece ever again. They had a garage sale of unwanted items in the MR1 cafeteria one Saturday before the move, and were selling a PDP-6 module-by-module. An S6205K "Arithmetic Registers" module (1-bit slice of AR/MQ/MB/) went for $7, autographed by Gordon Bell. I asked him whether read-in mode was implemented as a diode array encoding instructions. He said no, and kindly recommended the 6205 as a particularly central module to have, instead. /AHM -- Alan Howard Martin AMartin at TLE.ENet.DEC.Com From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 21 07:47:28 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 08:47:28 -0500 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <904EA689-AD58-4521-9AD0-FD1F5A593E5D@comcast.net> > On Dec 21, 2018, at 8:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > ... > The DEC brochure for it (P5141) is a little puzzling; it says (p. 2) that > "INTEGRATED CIRCUITS are basic elements of the low cost, newly designed > silicon FLIP CHIP modules used throughout PDP-7", but AFAIK, the first FLIP > CHIPs (R-series, B-series, etc) were all transistors; the later M-series were > the first ones to have ICs. Maybe this is some old meaning of "integrated > circuits"? > > Noel It's odd wording for sure, and doesn't feel like a common use of the term from before the arrival of monolithic integrated circuits. But there is some precedent; through the 1970s if not somewhat later there were "hybrid integrated circuits", often found in high performance A/D and D/A converters. Those are essentially compact circuit modules, but typically with unusual substrates like ceramic ones instead of PC boards, and surface mount components when PCBs used all through-hole components. So "integrated circuit" wasn't limited to the "monolithic" kind back then. I sometimes refer to "hollow state integrated circuits" to describe the complete multi-stage amplifier in a single package built by Loewe of Germany in the 1930s; look for "Loewe 3NF". paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 21 08:33:55 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:33:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? Message-ID: <20181221143355.34C2F18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this PDP-7 internals image > .. seems to show System Modules at the top, and FLIP CHIPs at the > bottom. After groveling through the 'PDP-7 Maintainence Manual' (F-77A), this seems to be accurate. In "Module Identification" (pg. 6-5), it refers to both types; the example on the next page uses a 4303, a 4000-Series System Module. What's interesting is the physical layout; all System Modules at the top of that image, and FLIP CHIPs at the bottom. No doubt this is partially for mechanical reasons (the two used different backplanes), but I wonder about the division into sub-systems; were the two types interspersed among each other in individual sub-systems (rewquiring running wires from the top to the bottom), or were sub-systems exclusively one or the other (so that the top of the bay is one sub-system, and the bottom another)? No doubt I could answer this by studying the prints, but time is short; perhaps someone who worked on the one at the LCM and already knows the answer can enlighten us! Noel From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Dec 21 09:04:46 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 07:04:46 -0800 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <501D5BCC-11BC-4A22-8CE6-AE6DBA629684@eschatologist.net> <3FC424AE-83D8-4A01-B231-D0F94E35C749@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <992733D7-7FD5-40F8-8FCD-0C413805E2EB@avanthar.com> > On Dec 20, 2018, at 6:27 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/20/18 6:59 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> Websites are a huge inconvenience or imposition, email lists are not. > > I like Usenet too. > > I really like all three to be the same content. That way people can participate what ever way they like best. I like Usenet as well, I find it a better medium than any website. Though the main group that still seems active is comp.os.vms. I finally figured out how to get back on about a year ago. > I think at least part of that is because a lot of people naively think that email is for communicating with friends that don't use the same social media and is otherwise generally broadcast only. A lot of people I talk to don't view email as interactive communications / dialog. In my not so humble opinion, that's their loss. I find there is little or no value in Social Media, on the other hand there is real value in email. One of those values is the ability to build archives of knowledge independent of any given website. Having said that, I recently needed some info from CLASSICCMP from the late 90?s, and couldn?t find it on my computer. Either the files are missing, or else it?s just because Mail.app is so pathetic about searching. Zane From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 21 09:10:44 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:10:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name Message-ID: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name, but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope! Noel From alan at alanlee.org Fri Dec 21 09:11:39 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:11:39 -0500 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: Wouldn't a RPi-Zero Wireless be easier, cheaper, smaller, quicker? Could even use a CM-3 in a custom case. -Alan On 2018-12-20 13:46, Carlo Pisani via cctech wrote: > The prototype (1) is already working; in the pic, there is a DHT board > with a Matrox Millennium video card, and a PCI-PS/2 card. The pic > shows a running windows manager on x11. > we are using a little PowerPC 405GP board, loaded with Linux and > xorg-x11. The processor's ISA is similar to a G3 CPU, but not exactly > equal. We had to create a specific toolchain for it. > > The rootfs is derived from Gentoo/Linux by using Catalyst on QEMU/PPC. > It's neat enough, and the whole process is under control (we can > choose flags, and rebuild the whole accordingly) > > Currently, the only problem we have is related to the kernel, > specifically to support DeviceTree and the 405 CPU which has a weird > address alignment, thus it wastes a lot of cycles in kernel space. > > If someone has experience with this CPU, we are open to hints and tips. > > (1) > http://93.55.217.0/wonderland/chunk_of/stuff/public/projects/sonoko-x11/node-board/dht-proto-1.png From alan at alanlee.org Fri Dec 21 09:11:39 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:11:39 -0500 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: Wouldn't a RPi-Zero Wireless be easier, cheaper, smaller, quicker? Could even use a CM-3 in a custom case. -Alan On 2018-12-20 13:46, Carlo Pisani via cctech wrote: > The prototype (1) is already working; in the pic, there is a DHT board > with a Matrox Millennium video card, and a PCI-PS/2 card. The pic > shows a running windows manager on x11. > we are using a little PowerPC 405GP board, loaded with Linux and > xorg-x11. The processor's ISA is similar to a G3 CPU, but not exactly > equal. We had to create a specific toolchain for it. > > The rootfs is derived from Gentoo/Linux by using Catalyst on QEMU/PPC. > It's neat enough, and the whole process is under control (we can > choose flags, and rebuild the whole accordingly) > > Currently, the only problem we have is related to the kernel, > specifically to support DeviceTree and the 405 CPU which has a weird > address alignment, thus it wastes a lot of cycles in kernel space. > > If someone has experience with this CPU, we are open to hints and tips. > > (1) > http://93.55.217.0/wonderland/chunk_of/stuff/public/projects/sonoko-x11/node-board/dht-proto-1.png From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 09:13:55 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:13:55 +0100 Subject: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> Message-ID: > Wouldn't a RPi-Zero Wireless be easier, cheaper, smaller, quicker? > Could even use a CM-3 in a custom case. I have already given points to our reasons. Do you like RPI? Go and use it! From sales at elecplus.com Fri Dec 21 09:33:14 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:33:14 -0600 Subject: Public buy/sell/trade In-Reply-To: References: <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <014401d49942$7d8f1f90$78ad5eb0$@com> For months I have been trying to implement a "multi-vendor marketplace". Without a budget, it is almost impossible. There is a free software, Sellacious, which runs off Joomla. Out of the box, it does not work. It has MAJOR security holes. However, it was the ONLY one I could find where more than one seller could sell the same product. Suppose 5 people have 1391401 keyboards. In almost every other system, you would have 5 separate listings. I wanted something more like Amazon, where the item is listed ONCE, and then each seller can set his price and a description of the condition, etc. I am most familiar with Magento, which is what I use. There is a multi-vendor add-on available, but the base package is $399, and then you go up from there with features, like each seller being able to input his own shipping methods/rates and payment methods. Deskthority donated the space for such a market, and offered to host it, but no one has the time to update/maintain it. If it were Magento, I would do it, but I don't have $400+ to invest in the extra software (basic Magento CE is free). If someone wants to donate the funds, or write a good working module for Magento multi-vendor, I will be happy to set it up an maintain it. The advantages to Magento are many, but it has a few drawbacks too. You can do almost anything with it, but it can be a little slow. The community is very active. There are numerous tiny sites for buying and selling that are not very active anymore, and most use a PHP BB type system, which will not let you list and buy like a true ecommerce does. It also does not tell you when something is out of stock, or allow you to add it to a wishlist. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 5:07 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Want/Available list On 12/20/2018 03:46 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > I too want a web forum venue for hunting, acquiring and dispersing > vintage computing gear, with a restoration/collector slant, ie not about > the money, ie I'm poor, ha ha. A mailing list is NOT an appropriate > context. It has no categories, is ephemeral, chews local storage, has > no hot-linking, and demands more real-time attention than I can spare. Is there really a dearth of satisfactory locations for people to swap / trade / buy / sell computer equipment? I've not seriously looked. But I feel like this should have been solved already. Maybe it has an the typical places are running people off or otherwise unappealing. What would people want in such a swap-n-shop? In some ways it's a basic inventory management system, with the ability for people to add their own listings. I feel like the community could likely benefit from an associated forum to discuss things without bogging down the business transactions. I would want it easy to search and find things, or possibly even register as being interested in being notified when someone lists something for sale in the future. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Fri Dec 21 09:35:49 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:35:49 -0600 Subject: Sun hdd available Message-ID: <014501d49942$d9eac500$8dc04f00$@com> Maybe of interest, maybe too new? WTS SUN ULTRA 25 / 45 SATA H, REF, qty 15, CALL, Sun Ultra 25 / 45 Sata HDD WTS The following Sun Ulta 25 / 45 Sata HDD : 390-0303 - 80GB Sata HDD - Qty 15 390-0351 - 160GB Sata HDD - Qty 15 Let me know qty you interested, and we send you prices include shipping Thanks Ronen Gispan ronen at tom-c.co.il Not affiliated with seller, etc. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 09:51:56 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:51:56 -0600 Subject: Public buy/sell/trade In-Reply-To: <014401d49942$7d8f1f90$78ad5eb0$@com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> <014401d49942$7d8f1f90$78ad5eb0$@com> Message-ID: how u looked at wordpress? On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 9:33 AM Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > For months I have been trying to implement a "multi-vendor marketplace". > Without a budget, it is almost impossible. There is a free software, > Sellacious, which runs off Joomla. Out of the box, it does not work. It has > MAJOR security holes. However, it was the ONLY one I could find where more > than one seller could sell the same product. Suppose 5 people have 1391401 > keyboards. In almost every other system, you would have 5 separate > listings. I wanted something more like Amazon, where the item is listed > ONCE, and then each seller can set his price and a description of the > condition, etc. > > I am most familiar with Magento, which is what I use. There is a > multi-vendor add-on available, but the base package is $399, and then you > go up from there with features, like each seller being able to input his > own shipping methods/rates and payment methods. > > Deskthority donated the space for such a market, and offered to host it, > but no one has the time to update/maintain it. If it were Magento, I would > do it, but I don't have $400+ to invest in the extra software (basic > Magento CE is free). > > If someone wants to donate the funds, or write a good working module for > Magento multi-vendor, I will be happy to set it up an maintain it. > > The advantages to Magento are many, but it has a few drawbacks too. You > can do almost anything with it, but it can be a little slow. The community > is very active. > > There are numerous tiny sites for buying and selling that are not very > active anymore, and most use a PHP BB type system, which will not let you > list and buy like a true ecommerce does. It also does not tell you when > something is out of stock, or allow you to add it to a wishlist. > > Cindy > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant > Taylor via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 5:07 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Want/Available list > > On 12/20/2018 03:46 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > I too want a web forum venue for hunting, acquiring and dispersing > > vintage computing gear, with a restoration/collector slant, ie not about > > the money, ie I'm poor, ha ha. A mailing list is NOT an appropriate > > context. It has no categories, is ephemeral, chews local storage, has > > no hot-linking, and demands more real-time attention than I can spare. > > Is there really a dearth of satisfactory locations for people to swap / > trade / buy / sell computer equipment? > > I've not seriously looked. But I feel like this should have been solved > already. Maybe it has an the typical places are running people off or > otherwise unappealing. > > What would people want in such a swap-n-shop? > > In some ways it's a basic inventory management system, with the ability > for people to add their own listings. > > I feel like the community could likely benefit from an associated forum > to discuss things without bogging down the business transactions. > > I would want it easy to search and find things, or possibly even > register as being interested in being notified when someone lists > something for sale in the future. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 09:57:10 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:57:10 +0100 Subject: Public buy/sell/trade In-Reply-To: <014401d49942$7d8f1f90$78ad5eb0$@com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> <014401d49942$7d8f1f90$78ad5eb0$@com> Message-ID: well, we tried to implement a new module, but ... yet again without a budget, and without interest I personally dropped the whole project http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/experimental-bay/app0.php Il giorno ven 21 dic 2018 alle ore 16:33 Electronics Plus via cctalk ha scritto: > > For months I have been trying to implement a "multi-vendor marketplace". Without a budget, it is almost impossible. There is a free software, Sellacious, which runs off Joomla. Out of the box, it does not work. It has MAJOR security holes. However, it was the ONLY one I could find where more than one seller could sell the same product. Suppose 5 people have 1391401 keyboards. In almost every other system, you would have 5 separate listings. I wanted something more like Amazon, where the item is listed ONCE, and then each seller can set his price and a description of the condition, etc. > > I am most familiar with Magento, which is what I use. There is a multi-vendor add-on available, but the base package is $399, and then you go up from there with features, like each seller being able to input his own shipping methods/rates and payment methods. > > Deskthority donated the space for such a market, and offered to host it, but no one has the time to update/maintain it. If it were Magento, I would do it, but I don't have $400+ to invest in the extra software (basic Magento CE is free). > > If someone wants to donate the funds, or write a good working module for Magento multi-vendor, I will be happy to set it up an maintain it. > > The advantages to Magento are many, but it has a few drawbacks too. You can do almost anything with it, but it can be a little slow. The community is very active. > > There are numerous tiny sites for buying and selling that are not very active anymore, and most use a PHP BB type system, which will not let you list and buy like a true ecommerce does. It also does not tell you when something is out of stock, or allow you to add it to a wishlist. > > Cindy > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 5:07 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Want/Available list > > On 12/20/2018 03:46 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > I too want a web forum venue for hunting, acquiring and dispersing > > vintage computing gear, with a restoration/collector slant, ie not about > > the money, ie I'm poor, ha ha. A mailing list is NOT an appropriate > > context. It has no categories, is ephemeral, chews local storage, has > > no hot-linking, and demands more real-time attention than I can spare. > > Is there really a dearth of satisfactory locations for people to swap / > trade / buy / sell computer equipment? > > I've not seriously looked. But I feel like this should have been solved > already. Maybe it has an the typical places are running people off or > otherwise unappealing. > > What would people want in such a swap-n-shop? > > In some ways it's a basic inventory management system, with the ability > for people to add their own listings. > > I feel like the community could likely benefit from an associated forum > to discuss things without bogging down the business transactions. > > I would want it easy to search and find things, or possibly even > register as being interested in being notified when someone lists > something for sale in the future. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 09:58:53 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:58:53 +0100 Subject: Public buy/sell/trade In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> <014401d49942$7d8f1f90$78ad5eb0$@com> Message-ID: besides, the GPDR and this new hipster legal stuff (in Europe) are now making things even more complex, especially if a website is involved in e-commerce . Il giorno ven 21 dic 2018 alle ore 16:57 Carlo Pisani ha scritto: > > well, we tried to implement a new module, but ... yet again without a > budget, and without interest I personally dropped the whole project > > http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/experimental-bay/app0.php > > Il giorno ven 21 dic 2018 alle ore 16:33 Electronics Plus via cctalk > ha scritto: > > > > For months I have been trying to implement a "multi-vendor marketplace". Without a budget, it is almost impossible. There is a free software, Sellacious, which runs off Joomla. Out of the box, it does not work. It has MAJOR security holes. However, it was the ONLY one I could find where more than one seller could sell the same product. Suppose 5 people have 1391401 keyboards. In almost every other system, you would have 5 separate listings. I wanted something more like Amazon, where the item is listed ONCE, and then each seller can set his price and a description of the condition, etc. > > > > I am most familiar with Magento, which is what I use. There is a multi-vendor add-on available, but the base package is $399, and then you go up from there with features, like each seller being able to input his own shipping methods/rates and payment methods. > > > > Deskthority donated the space for such a market, and offered to host it, but no one has the time to update/maintain it. If it were Magento, I would do it, but I don't have $400+ to invest in the extra software (basic Magento CE is free). > > > > If someone wants to donate the funds, or write a good working module for Magento multi-vendor, I will be happy to set it up an maintain it. > > > > The advantages to Magento are many, but it has a few drawbacks too. You can do almost anything with it, but it can be a little slow. The community is very active. > > > > There are numerous tiny sites for buying and selling that are not very active anymore, and most use a PHP BB type system, which will not let you list and buy like a true ecommerce does. It also does not tell you when something is out of stock, or allow you to add it to a wishlist. > > > > Cindy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via cctalk > > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 5:07 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Want/Available list > > > > On 12/20/2018 03:46 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > > I too want a web forum venue for hunting, acquiring and dispersing > > > vintage computing gear, with a restoration/collector slant, ie not about > > > the money, ie I'm poor, ha ha. A mailing list is NOT an appropriate > > > context. It has no categories, is ephemeral, chews local storage, has > > > no hot-linking, and demands more real-time attention than I can spare. > > > > Is there really a dearth of satisfactory locations for people to swap / > > trade / buy / sell computer equipment? > > > > I've not seriously looked. But I feel like this should have been solved > > already. Maybe it has an the typical places are running people off or > > otherwise unappealing. > > > > What would people want in such a swap-n-shop? > > > > In some ways it's a basic inventory management system, with the ability > > for people to add their own listings. > > > > I feel like the community could likely benefit from an associated forum > > to discuss things without bogging down the business transactions. > > > > I would want it easy to search and find things, or possibly even > > register as being interested in being notified when someone lists > > something for sale in the future. > > > > > > > > -- > > Grant. . . . > > unix || die > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 21 10:51:01 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 08:51:01 -0800 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 12/21/18 5:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > The DEC brochure for it (P5141) is a little puzzling; it says (p. 2) that > "INTEGRATED CIRCUITS are basic elements of the low cost, newly designed > silicon FLIP CHIP modules used throughout PDP-7", but AFAIK, the first FLIP > CHIPs (R-series, B-series, etc) were all transistors; the later M-series were > the first ones to have ICs. Maybe this is some old meaning of "integrated > circuits"? The original "Flip Chip" was a packaging failure. It was literally a die bonded to a PCB and never went into production. I think it is mentioned in "Computer Engineering" IBM perfected the techniques to do this later with the development of solder bumps and IR reflow. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Dec 21 10:51:14 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:51:14 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <4ed98a60-fd56-bccf-abf2-bae24fdbeeff@comcast.net> Message-ID: <17449fb4-a415-339d-f6db-0131663059e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/21/18 1:07 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > no, emulators will not cut it Would you please expand upon that? Are you saying that things like a Raspberry Pi running RetroPi (I think that's the name) don't suffice / satisfy as the real thing that they are emulating? Or are you including things like the new retro consoles that original vendors are coming out with? (The palm sized SNES from Nintendo comes to mind.) Do you have any idea why these newer things are not cutting it? I've also had great success with running '90s era games in DOSBox on what ever computer happens to be handy. Does that not work at all for you / your crew? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Dec 21 11:08:33 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 11:08:33 -0600 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5C1D1E11.3080407@pico-systems.com> On 12/21/2018 07:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Mattis Lind > > > I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from. > > They're called 'System Modules': > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/System_Module > > and they were used from the PDP-1 through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this > PDP-7 internals image: > > https://www.soemtron.org/images/jpgs/decimages/sn113robertjohnson85680004.jpg > > seems to show System Modules at the top, and FLIP CHIPs at the bottom. (I'm > pretty sure even the first PDP-8 - the 'straight 8' - uses only early FLIP > CHIPs - transistorized ones.) > > The DEC brochure for it (P5141) is a little puzzling; it says (p. 2) that > "INTEGRATED CIRCUITS are basic elements of the low cost, newly designed > silicon FLIP CHIP modules used throughout PDP-7", but AFAIK, the first FLIP > CHIPs (R-series, B-series, etc) were all transistors; the later M-series were > the first ones to have ICs. Maybe this is some old meaning of "integrated > circuits"? > > Yes, PDP-5 and DEC LINC were made with "System Building Blocks", similar in technology to the board pictured, but single-width and wrapped in an aluminum frame, with a blue connector hand-wired to one end. Single-sided, paper-phenolic PCBs. Kind of similar to half of the board in the picture. I think this same technology was used in a number of other machines. Discrete transistors, diode-steered capacitor-coupled FFs, really ANCIENT technology. The "classic" PDP-8 was built with basically the same circuit technology, but on smaller, unframed glass-epoxy PCBs with etched and gold-plated card-edge fingers, with color-coded handles indicating what technology was on it. So, basic logic was R with red handles, memory boards (select, read amp, etc.) were G with green handles, etc. Jon From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 11:30:50 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:30:50 -0500 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: <20181221143355.34C2F18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181221143355.34C2F18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <196847cb-fc75-8f8e-7f07-bd6da8a056c5@gmail.com> On 12/21/2018 09:33 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this PDP-7 internals image > > .. seems to show System Modules at the top, and FLIP CHIPs at the > > bottom. > > After groveling through the 'PDP-7 Maintainence Manual' (F-77A), this seems to > be accurate. In "Module Identification" (pg. 6-5), it refers to both types; the > example on the next page uses a 4303, a 4000-Series System Module. > > What's interesting is the physical layout; all System Modules at the top of > that image, and FLIP CHIPs at the bottom. No doubt this is partially for > mechanical reasons (the two used different backplanes), but I wonder about the > division into sub-systems; were the two types interspersed among each other in > individual sub-systems (rewquiring running wires from the top to the bottom), > or were sub-systems exclusively one or the other (so that the top of the bay > is one sub-system, and the bottom another)? > > No doubt I could answer this by studying the prints, but time is short; perhaps > someone who worked on the one at the LCM and already knows the answer can > enlighten us! > > Noel IC as in digital logic? were in production in the early 60s and RTL/DTL the? oldest I was playing with as a kid by '66 and TTL started to appear well before 1970.? The stuff of the day was 2input Nand, Nor, 4 bit counters, and similar SSI logic. We forget the AGC Apollo guidance computer used a dual 3input NOR RTL dating to 1960.? This was already old by 1970.? People were building frequency counters with RTL (uL914/923, MC789 and friends as "hobbyist chips" it by then.? Least I was able to buy uL9xx, MC7XX, MC10K,? in the late 60s for under a dollar a package. The transition from transistors to ICs was fast.? Cost and space were drivers and generally speed as well. The industry needed faster and more reliable and interconnects needed to be fewer.? At the same time ICs went from 1960 dual 3input nor to MSI (7483 quad full adder and 74181 ALU) in about 10 years.? The computer industry were the early consumers. Allison From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 21 11:37:04 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:37:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? Message-ID: <20181221173704.9E6A518C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Allison > IC as in digital logic were in production in the early 60s Yes, but if you look at the picture/manual (I found a "Module location for I/O" chart on pg. 335 of the PDP-7 Maint Manual - alas, not the whole machine, just the FLIP CHIP part), the PDP-7 is all B-series and R-series FLIP CHIPs, which are all discrete transistors. AFAIK, the first ICs (in the modern sense) on FLIP CHIPS were on M-series. Noel From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 11:58:14 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:58:14 -0500 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 12/21/2018 10:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came > from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name, > but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope! > > Noel > ssrsly? It was the first PDP-8 no model letter like S, L, I, E, F, M, or A.? It was also the direct decedent of the PDP-5 (1963 and transistors) which was the first 12bit machine and largely compatible with later family of 8 machines.? The PDP-8 series started in 1965 and grew from there. When looking at the history LINK and LINK-8, PDP12, and later LAB-8 are also related and interleaved as laboratory machines. Simple answer, it was DECs first blockbuster machine that was manufactured in high volume and was very low cost in terms of the day. The transistor to IC change...? The 8I: Also commenting on ICs the 1970 Omnibus 8 (PDP-E)? was the largely MSI IC based machine (M series). The 8I/8L was the first TTL machine prior to that the systems were transistor.??? The march to higher density ICs was well underway.? FYI my first contact was the DEC PDP8I fall of 1969? as part of the BOCES LIRICS timeshare system (NY, LI, Sufflok county schools). The following year (fall 1970) it was integrated into and part of the larger DEC System 10 timeshare system running TOPS-10. None of this is secret or difficult to find.? Doug Jones has a great archive.?? http://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/ Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 21 12:03:06 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:03:06 -0800 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> On 12/21/18 9:58 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 12/21/2018 10:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came >> from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name, >> but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope! >> >> Noel >> > ssrsly? > yes "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors I never heard it called that before then. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 21 12:01:44 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:01:44 -0800 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6254081b-f35d-3ede-f945-a2524587e026@sbcglobal.net> On 12/21/2018 2:49 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > There is an auction for some kind of early DEC module. It appears to be a > bit slice of MB, AR and MQ. There is also a signature by Gordon Bell on the > board. > > But I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-6205-Arithmetic-Registers-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/264093791320?hash=item3d7d377458:g:U2AAAOSwpTBcGULN > > The same seller has several other pre Flip-Chip modules like 4706 Teletype > Receiver. If I read correctly the transistors are dated 1963-1964. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-4706C-8-Bit-Teletype-Receiver-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/323607301613?hash=item4b587f8ded:g:AMcAAOSwXF5cGUH9 > They are from a PDP_5. I have a 5 so am bidding on a few of the boards. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 12:07:34 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:07:34 -0500 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: <20181221173704.9E6A518C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181221173704.9E6A518C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > AFAIK, the first ICs (in the modern sense) on FLIP CHIPS were on M-series. I think the W706 and W707 predated the M series by a hair, using commercial MRTL (I think). These were the early TTY receiver/transmitter cards. -- Will From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 21 12:10:21 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:10:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name Message-ID: <20181221181021.B052418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal 'model' for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20 BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the other -8's. But what I _don't_ know is _why_ that particular name? I was hoping some -8 collector knew... Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 21 12:10:54 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:10:54 -0800 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors > > I never heard it called that before then. Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date? I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to search Usenet by date right now. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 12:16:03 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:16:03 -0500 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Or NGram. -- Will On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 1:10 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors > > > > I never heard it called that before then. > > Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date? > > I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to > search Usenet by date right now. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 21 12:20:42 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:20:42 -0800 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9e69a447-3b02-0280-fb01-0e2ac5bc6461@bitsavers.org> On 12/21/18 10:16 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Or NGram. > didn't see anything meaningful, but "minicomputer" and "software" are fun minicomputer peaks in 1980 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 12:37:39 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:37:39 -0800 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0c82dc3e-3fc0-659b-5dc2-d2696c83583d@sydex.com> Back in the first half the 20th century, there were various configurations of 8-cylinder internal combustion engines. We're all familiar with the V-8, but there were inline 8-cylinder designs used primarily on luxury cars, making for a wonderfully long engine compartment. Cord, Buick, Packard, Chrysler and Oldsmobile all offered the "straight 8" on their high-end models. Those were called "straight-eights", I suspect because of the attractiveness of rhyming name. "Straight 8" configuration was also used on some aircraft as well. I suspect the name for the early PDP-8 is just a convenient adaptation of a once well-known automotive term, much like "V-8". For what it's worth, Ford experimented with an X-8 configuration as well, but never put it into production. --Chuck From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 12:54:58 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:54:58 -0500 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Thank you Allison! I was trying to get my fingers to work and kept having an attack of gasp how could someone not know? Well said, hope you are doing GREAT! bob smith, 8/e engineering, 8 engineering, DecComm11, LCG 2080 On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 12:58 PM allison via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/21/2018 10:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came > > from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name, > > but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope! > > > > Noel > > > ssrsly? > > It was the first PDP-8 no model letter like S, L, I, E, F, M, or A. It > was also the direct decedent of the > PDP-5 (1963 and transistors) which was the first 12bit machine and > largely compatible with later > family of 8 machines. The PDP-8 series started in 1965 and grew from there. > > When looking at the history LINK and LINK-8, PDP12, and later LAB-8 are > also related and interleaved > as laboratory machines. > > Simple answer, it was DECs first blockbuster machine that was > manufactured in high volume and was > very low cost in terms of the day. > > The transistor to IC change... The 8I: > Also commenting on ICs the 1970 Omnibus 8 (PDP-E) was the largely MSI > IC based machine (M series). > The 8I/8L was the first TTL machine prior to that the systems were > transistor. The march to higher density > ICs was well underway. > > FYI my first contact was the DEC PDP8I fall of 1969 as part of the > BOCES LIRICS timeshare system > (NY, LI, Sufflok county schools). The following year (fall 1970) it was > integrated into and part of the larger > DEC System 10 timeshare system running TOPS-10. > > None of this is secret or difficult to find. Doug Jones has a great > archive. http://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/ > > > Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 21 12:56:42 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 11:56:42 -0700 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: <0c82dc3e-3fc0-659b-5dc2-d2696c83583d@sydex.com> References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> <0c82dc3e-3fc0-659b-5dc2-d2696c83583d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8d237096-ff37-84c0-47ed-466eb499dcbd@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/21/2018 11:37 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Back in the first half the 20th century, there were various > configurations of 8-cylinder internal combustion engines. > > We're all familiar with the V-8, but there were inline 8-cylinder > designs used primarily on luxury cars, making for a wonderfully long > engine compartment. Cord, Buick, Packard, Chrysler and Oldsmobile all > offered the "straight 8" on their high-end models. Those were called > "straight-eights", I suspect because of the attractiveness of rhyming > name. "Straight 8" configuration was also used on some aircraft as well. > > I suspect the name for the early PDP-8 is just a convenient adaptation > of a once well-known automotive term, much like "V-8". > > For what it's worth, Ford experimented with an X-8 configuration as > well, but never put it into production. > > --Chuck > Now I got a stupid image of the newer models adding 6 bits on every other clock phase for a faster cpu. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 21 13:04:17 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 11:04:17 -0800 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: <8d237096-ff37-84c0-47ed-466eb499dcbd@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> <0c82dc3e-3fc0-659b-5dc2-d2696c83583d@sydex.com> <8d237096-ff37-84c0-47ed-466eb499dcbd@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 12/21/18 10:56 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Now I got a stupid image of the newer models adding 6 bits on every > other clock phase for a faster cpu. > Pratt & Whitney R-4360 From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 14:06:15 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 15:06:15 -0500 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: <20181221181021.B052418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181221181021.B052418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > > My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal > 'model' > for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20 > BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the > other -8's. > > > The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP 11/10 and PDP 11/20. These are just as legitimate and well defined as the 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of the front plate. The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid. Read the first brochure, don't take my word for it. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and 11/10 existed from day one. The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10 model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the original 11/10 model. Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 21 14:32:57 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 15:32:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name Message-ID: <20181221203257.3A8BB18C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the other >> -8's. So my assumption (that it was recent) seems to be incorrect; I heard that it was in use in the 60's to differentiate it (e.g. for knowing what spares to take). Alas, with the origin that far back in time, we'll probably never find out what the connection was. > From: Bill Degnan > The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers > did not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were > called PDP 11/10 and PDP 11/20. ... The fact that the name does not > appear on the front panel has caused every DEC historian to miss this > factoid. Yeah, it tripped me to. Although after I sent that email, I went back and looked, and it's called '-11/20' on all the documents I can find, including the prints. I'll check in the DEC archives (available on BitSavers), but I suspect the "PDP-11" on the front panel was the result of something getting dropped in the process of doing the panel, not the reasult of a name change by DEC. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 14:36:15 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 15:36:15 -0500 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: <20181221203257.3A8BB18C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181221203257.3A8BB18C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > > > From: Bill Degnan > > > The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the > numbers > > did not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were > > called PDP 11/10 and PDP 11/20. ... The fact that the name does not > > appear on the front panel has caused every DEC historian to miss this > > factoid. > > Yeah, it tripped me to. Although after I sent that email, I went back and > looked, and it's called '-11/20' on all the documents I can find, including > the prints. > > I'll check in the DEC archives (available on BitSavers), but I suspect the > "PDP-11" on the front panel was the result of something getting dropped in > the > process of doing the panel, not the reasult of a name change by DEC. > > > Sorry to hijack the thread. The URL I provided has links to documentation with a few early references to the PDP 11 being 11/10 and 11/20 models that I could find. A few magazine articles, etc. It's pretty well researched at this point to be true to state that the first two PDP 11 models were the 11/10 and 11/20. It just takes a while for this to work its way through academia. Bill From jim at deitygraveyard.com Fri Dec 21 14:51:45 2018 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 15:51:45 -0500 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/21/18 1:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors >> >> I never heard it called that before then. > Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date? The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list predates alt.sys.pdp8 by a couple years. I just checked the archives and the earliest usage of 'straight-8' is from Charles Lasner in an e-mail introducing himself to the still new mailing list on August 10th, 1990. I've pasted his complete message at the bottom. The 'straight -8' is mentioned in the second sentence of his second paragraph. A quick check shows that it was common for cjl to use the term 'straight-8'. > I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to > search Usenet by date right now. > > I miss DejaNews. Damn I hate Google. Jim Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:37:28 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu ([128.52.32.80]) by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:36:07 EDT Received: from watsun.cc.columbia.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA00254; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:12:04 EDT Received: by watsun.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB) ??????? id AA20618; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:12:20 EDT Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: PDP8-LOVERS at ai.mit.edu Subject: Belated Mail Reply Message-Id: Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: PDP8-LOVERS at ai.mit.edu Subject: Belated Mail Reply >Received: from AI.AI.MIT.EDU (CHAOS 3130) by MC.LCS.MIT.EDU 18 Feb 89 10:32:35 EST >Date: Sat, 18 Feb 89 10:32:31 EST >From: "Robert E. Seastrom" >To: pdp8-lovers at MC.LCS.MIT.EDU >Message-ID: <540513.890218.RS at AI.AI.MIT.EDU> > > >Well, folks, it's finally here.? The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list is now >reality!? Messages for the list go to PDP8-LOVERS at MC.LCS.MIT.EDU; >requests to be added to or deleted from the list go to >PDP8-LOVERS-REQUEST at MC.LCS.MIT.EDU (case is _not_ critical here). > >Perhaps we ought to all introduce ourselves to each other... > >????????? This one's for you <7001> > >????????????????????? -Rob From:?? cjl ??? Let me introduce myself.? I am Charles J. Lasner.? I only use the J to get my initials, which I usually go by, thus cjl. ??? I am a PDP-8 programmer.? I don't know how many of us there are left, but I started in 1968 with a straight -8 table-top machine at Brooklyn PolyTechnic Institute.? The school probably has another name by now, due to academia's answer to the business world's phenomena of acquisitions and mergers.? The machine in question is quite legendary.? The work done on it is responsible in LARGE part for why all of us are here reading this, since this is the "original" PDP-8 used by the legendary Richard Lary and company.? If it can be said that the PDP-8 created the phrase "mini-computer", then it is THIS PDP-8 that made the "mini-computer" into something other than a paper-tape machine! ??? This PDP-8 was originally configured by the academics in charge as a programmer's disaster: 4K, EAE, a model 33 teletype, AF01A A-D converter with 16-channel multiplexor,? AA01A D-A converter with (wow!) THREE channels.? A Bud blue rack cabinet housed the A-D and D-A with lots of empty space.? All empty slots had those wonderful super-thick zinctone panels, and the fronts were all in place; they were held in place with those pressed-in heavy shiny metal threaded bosses that most of you can't figure out the purpose of on your wire-wrap racks.? As far as I know, these were the only style of cabinet that the bosses were supplied for.? The plates used heavy nickel-plated knurled knobs with a screw-driver slot you could turn with a dime. ??? Soon after all of this arrived, and got nowhere due to the enormous waste of time paper-tape can be (especially at 110 baud and unreliable at that!), a DEC salesman suggested a high-speed reader/punch be added.? Fortunately for all of us, THIS NEVER HAPPENED, for if it had, no further work of external significence would have been done.? (The EE department would have been very happy to just develop their diddly A-D and D-A experiment programs.) ??? Due to the efforts of Richard Lary, Jack Burness, Hank Maurer, Lenny Elekman, and Joseph R. Fischetti (to name a few legends I knew), the EE department was convinced to spend MORE money on some new-fangled beast the salesman had vaguely heard of; he was fairly certain it was called a MicroTape.? This was, of course, an early name for DECtape.? So the EE department shelled out another $8k and got itself another Bud blue rack cabinet complete with sides, another power controller, 11 buss cables, and a TC01 and one (yes one!) TU55 DECtape drive.? The academics thought that the drive was custom made for the PDP-8, because the numeral "8" always appeared on the drive select.? (No need to change drives when you have only one of them!) I later found out why the "8" was there (not "0"): ??? This is a throwback to the earlier Microtape drives used mostly on the PDP-6 which are really DECtape drives, but with an entirly different interface to the PDP-8, which really belongs to the PDP-5 era.? I believe that the PDP-5 doesn't support 3-cycle data-break, because this is a single-cycle interface.? This limits programming possibilities. (Another subject entirely!) ??? I believe the only programming for this earlier hardware was an original version of the DECtape Library System which I had contact with on the TC01/TU55 (an incompatible later version, but obviously less obscure).? The interesting point is that while the TC01 has a three-bit drive select register, where all cases are viable, this earlier hardware had a FOUR-bit register, so drives had to be selected as 1-8.? Clearing the register deselects all drives, whereas when talking to the "Solid-State DECtape" drive, as the TU55 was originally known, you are selecting drive zero.? Apparently there were hardware adaptations to theoretically connect the TU55 as a microtape drive (using RELAY LOGIC level converters instead of the jumper cards usually in the drives), so they thought in terms of the original microtape nomenclature of 1-8.? Years later (I think first done for the benefit of the PDP-12 LINCtape) they had an ECO to glue a 0 over the 8. ??? Soon after the TC01/TU56 cabinet arrived, the 33 teletype started failing (which is normal!) from "normal" use (reading paper-tapes!). They had their first "run-in" with DEC Field Service, whose members sort of knew what to do with the -8, but they KILLED teletypes! Eventually, they purchased a PT08, the only hardware on this machine to use ICs (RTL chips only, TTL came later!).? With it came an additional teletype, a model 35 (without paper-tape).? The 35 became the 03/04-connected one, and the 33 was "banished" to the PT08. (And over the years it "walked" out of the PDP-8 room to be "borrowed" by various groups, only to be "retrieved" periodically.) ??? Fortunately, a private teletype maintenance company contacted the school and eventually won a teletype-only maintenance contract, over DEC's objections.? Since these teletypes were so over-used, it became necessary to rotate them between the PT08 and the console to keep them working.? We even created software to SLOW DOWN the teletype, since it was noticed that an out-of-adjustment 35 will work FINE if run at 89% of maximum speed (that's 89% of 110 baud!) when it starts jumbling characters at 100% speed. ??? This machine was setup on a large desk, with the teletypes nearby, and a Bud cabinet at either end.? We didn't have the nice Formica table option.? So much software was toggled into this machine that I personally replaced the slide switches which wore out!? I also repaired the CPU several years later, after DEC Field Service swore they couldn't get it to work after 9 months of trying. ??? The problem was that there are isolation diodes in the wires that run from various registers to the light panel, which has lamp drivers and soldered in lamps on it.? Periodically we would replace the occasional blown transistor driver and numerous blown bulbs. (Touching the panel was a calculated risk since you killed even more lamps by doing it!) ??? The diodes are located on the card edge where all of the wires are soldered close together, and plugged into the backplane; there are several such cards.? The wires break off easily, and hasty repairers would sloppily solder them back to the board lugs. Eventually some diodes shorted, so the capacitance of the wires now loaded the affected driver.? Also there now was the possibility of cross-talk between the wires collector-triggering the gates!? This is why the machine was so prone to random failure.? (It worked in single-step mode.) ??? Replacing the diodes didn't completely work, because there was yet another problem: the diodes were photo-sensitive!? DEC attempted to light-shield the diodes by painting them.? This paint got scraped off of them due to the soldering, etc., so the machine was sensitive to its own lamps being lit!? It worked better in room darkness, so we got the idea about inadvertent photo-diodes!? Painting the diodes solved the last remaining problem.? I almost single-handedly got the machine back up (there were other random problems as well, but they were easier to solve, like the tendancy for a PT08 to burn up a land UNDER a chip where you couldn't see it!), and got the thanks of the faculty members of the EE department, who would have scrapped the machine if it was unrepairable! ??? Although this wasn't my first computer, it was my first DEC computer.? I have stayed with the PDP-8's to this day.? I was then and now a programmer, but we all participated in keeping the machine up.? I can trace my extensive DEC hardware background to this beginning (as well as DEC software!). cjl (Charles Lasner) ??? (lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu or lasner at cunixf.cc.columbia.edu) From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 21 15:07:22 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:07:22 -0500 Subject: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name] In-Reply-To: References: <20181221181021.B052418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > >> >> >> >> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal >> 'model' >> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20 >> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the >> other -8's. >> >> >> > The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did > not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP > 11/10 and PDP 11/20. These are just as legitimate and well defined as the > 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of > the front plate. The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel > has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid. Read the first > brochure, don't take my word for it. > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 > > Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and > 11/10 existed from day one. The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10 > model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the > original 11/10 model. > > Bill Wow. Did that V1 11/10 ever ship? Do any still exist? I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). paul From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 13:32:24 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:32:24 -0500 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8e953cca-e812-dd81-1503-90dac159194b@gmail.com> On 12/21/2018 01:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > > On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors >> >> I never heard it called that before then. > Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date? > > I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to > search Usenet by date right now. > > Not I, that is a deep hole to dredge.? I do know it was a clear way to differentiate the various family of 8 machines and it was on alt.sys.pdp-8 I'd seen it way back like mid 80s. It may have been old by then.? I used to peek there as my first PDP-8e was in hand around late 1983. And the automotive reference was not it.? It was the straight as in not later lettered versions.? Best similar use is:? Whiskey straight, water on the side. One of the DEC history things about the era was often engineering went may different directions at the same time? making for a plethora of systems that were or mostly PDP-8ish like the PDP-12 that was PDP-8 and LINK.? RICM has a really pretty one. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 14:19:16 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:19:16 -0800 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: <8e953cca-e812-dd81-1503-90dac159194b@gmail.com> References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> <8e953cca-e812-dd81-1503-90dac159194b@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/21/18 11:32 AM, allison via cctech wrote: > And the automotive reference was not it.? It was the straight as in not > later lettered > versions.? Best similar use is:? Whiskey straight, water on the side. Could be--but I was pointed out that "straight eight" was an automotive term familiar to the laity that pre-dated DEC by a goodly number of years. We live in a world dominated by automobile marketing. I suspect the same common connection to "turbo", popularized by the auto marketeers. On the other hand, I've never seen a computer advertised with a "Turbo-Hydra-Matic" or "Dynaflow" feature. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 15:00:15 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:00:15 -0500 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> <8e953cca-e812-dd81-1503-90dac159194b@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Could be--but I was pointed out that "straight eight" was an automotive > term familiar to the laity that pre-dated DEC by a goodly number of > years. We live in a world dominated by automobile marketing. Some points to ponder: The term Straight-9 is basically never heard when referring to the PDP-9 and not a PDP-9/L. The term "Winchester disk" is another example of name coined after another deeply embedded cultural term having nothing to do with computing. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 21 15:04:32 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:04:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> <8e953cca-e812-dd81-1503-90dac159194b@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > I suspect the same common connection to "turbo", popularized by the auto > marketeers. > On the other hand, I've never seen a computer advertised with a > "Turbo-Hydra-Matic" or "Dynaflow" feature. such as "turbo LAG" Should look around the yards for insignia, such as the Subaru "Turbo XT 16" From cube1 at charter.net Fri Dec 21 15:47:27 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 15:47:27 -0600 Subject: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name] In-Reply-To: References: <20181221181021.B052418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <679b7cf7-8b36-3478-c10b-4567739e4483@charter.net> On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal >>> 'model' >>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20 >>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the >>> other -8's. >>> >>> >>> >> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did >> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP >> 11/10 and PDP 11/20. These are just as legitimate and well defined as the >> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of >> the front plate. The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel >> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid. Read the first >> brochure, don't take my word for it. >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 >> >> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and >> 11/10 existed from day one. The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10 >> model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the >> original 11/10 model. >> >> Bill > > Wow. > > Did that V1 11/10 ever ship? Do any still exist? > > I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). > > paul > > It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by the latter 11/10 variant by 1972. Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?) that they just dropped it. Or maybe a marketing / design team communication misstep. The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns (same as the RAM core). It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256 words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20. The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every 1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle times). As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those who ordered 11/10's). From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 16:00:11 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 17:00:11 -0500 Subject: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name] In-Reply-To: <679b7cf7-8b36-3478-c10b-4567739e4483@charter.net> References: <20181221181021.B052418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <679b7cf7-8b36-3478-c10b-4567739e4483@charter.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:47 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal > >>> 'model' > >>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20 > >>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all > the > >>> other -8's. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers > did > >> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called > PDP > >> 11/10 and PDP 11/20. These are just as legitimate and well defined as > the > >> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one > fact of > >> the front plate. The fact that the name does not appear on the front > panel > >> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid. Read the first > >> brochure, don't take my word for it. > >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 > >> > >> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 > and > >> 11/10 existed from day one. The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10 > >> model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the > >> original 11/10 model. > >> > >> Bill > > > > Wow. > > > > Did that V1 11/10 ever ship? Do any still exist? > > > > I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that > memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be > pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). > > > > paul > > > > > > It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and > pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by > the latter 11/10 variant by 1972. > > Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near > as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?) > that they just dropped it. Or maybe a marketing / design team > communication misstep. > > The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to > the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns > (same as the RAM core). It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256 > words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20. > > The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every > 1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle > times). > > As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those > who ordered 11/10's). > When you consider the differences between the 11/35 and 11/40 were simply option choices and the later 11/10 11/05, I can see no reason why the "original 11/10 11/20 is any different other than the front plate being "PDP-11" for the later pairing. I am unaware of any 11/10's still around but I am also unaware of any Rolm 1601's that still exist, does not mean it was not a real Ruggednova model. etc. Basically it's being inconsistent to not acknowledge the original 11/10. We could say that the PDP 11 models were 11/20 11/45 11/40 11/10 ... and ignore the original 11/10, plus the 11/35 and 11/05. I will still sleep well at night regardless what officialdom decides. :-) Bill From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Dec 21 16:23:12 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:23:12 -0800 Subject: Public buy/sell/trade In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> <014401d49942$7d8f1f90$78ad5eb0$@com> Message-ID: <654DD778-CD59-48DD-8C38-E2918E1B81C4@avanthar.com> As someone that actually has to worry about such things, it?s *GDPR* (Global Data Protection Regulation), not GPDR as you keep writing. And yes, it?s a PITA for businesses and websites, but I for one wish we had something similar in the US. Zane > On Dec 21, 2018, at 7:58 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > besides, the GPDR and this new hipster legal stuff (in Europe) are now > making things even more complex, especially if a website is involved > in e-commerce > . From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Dec 21 16:30:54 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:30:54 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <17449fb4-a415-339d-f6db-0131663059e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <4ed98a60-fd56-bccf-abf2-bae24fdbeeff@comcast.net> <17449fb4-a415-339d-f6db-0131663059e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 21, 2018, at 8:51 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/21/18 1:07 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: >> no, emulators will not cut it > > Would you please expand upon that? > > Are you saying that things like a Raspberry Pi running RetroPi (I think that's the name) don't suffice / satisfy as the real thing that they are emulating? > > Or are you including things like the new retro consoles that original vendors are coming out with? (The palm sized SNES from Nintendo comes to mind.) > > Do you have any idea why these newer things are not cutting it? > > I've also had great success with running '90s era games in DOSBox on what ever computer happens to be handy. Does that not work at all for you / your crew? I?m afraid I?ll have to agree with Jim here. When talking about Retro Gaming, in most cases, the Raspberry Pi, while better than nothing, aren?t as good as the real thing, especially in regards to video and audio. I was seriously excited about the Retron77 (Atari 2600) that was recently released, but on getting it, I found that it wasn?t able to play a fair number of the cartridges I?ve tried with it. DOS games never had *KNOWN* set of hardware they?d be running on, as a result I think they?re likely more forgiving. Now despite what I just said about the Raspberry Pi, I have three of them around here, one is a small VAX running OpenVMS 7.3, one is a DPS-8 running Multics, and the other a KL-10B running TOPS-20. I had dreams of building a VMS cluster of RPi 3+?s, but have kind of gone off that idea, due to the superior performance I get using my VMware Cluster to host VAX instances. Zane From cube1 at charter.net Fri Dec 21 16:37:22 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:37:22 -0600 Subject: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name] In-Reply-To: References: <20181221181021.B052418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <679b7cf7-8b36-3478-c10b-4567739e4483@charter.net> Message-ID: On 12/21/2018 4:00 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:47 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk > > wrote: > > On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal > >>> 'model' > >>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the > -11/20 > >>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from > all the > >>> other -8's. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the > numbers did > >> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were > called PDP > >> 11/10 and PDP 11/20.? These are just as legitimate and well > defined as the > >> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the > one fact of > >> the front plate.? The fact that the name does not appear on the > front panel > >> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid.? Read the first > >> brochure, don't take my word for it. > >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 > >> > >> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model > 11/20 and > >> 11/10 existed from day one.? The problem is that DEC re-used the > 11/10 > >> model name again a few years later, the other cause for > neglecting the > >> original 11/10 model. > >> > >> Bill > > > > Wow. > > > > Did that V1 11/10 ever ship?? Do any still exist? > > > > I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory.? What technology is > that memory?? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but > that would be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). > > > >? ? ? ?paul > > > > > > It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and > pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by > the latter 11/10 variant by 1972. > > Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near > as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?) > that they just dropped it.? Or maybe a marketing / design team > communication misstep. > > The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to > the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns > (same as the RAM core).? It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256 > words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20. > > The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every > 1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle > times). > > As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those > who ordered 11/10's). > > > When you consider the differences between the 11/35 and 11/40 were > simply option choices and the later 11/10 11/05, I can see no reason why > the "original 11/10 11/20 is any different other than the front plate > being "PDP-11" for the later pairing.? I am unaware of any 11/10's still > around but I am also unaware of any Rolm 1601's that still exist, does > not mean it was not a real Ruggednova model.? etc. > > Basically it's being inconsistent to not acknowledge the original 11/10. > > We could say that the PDP 11 models were > 11/20 > 11/45 > 11/40 > 11/10 > > ... and ignore the original 11/10, plus the 11/35 and 11/05.? > > I will still sleep well at night regardless what officialdom decides. :-) > > Bill Unless, of course, none of them found their way into customers' hands. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 16:40:01 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 17:40:01 -0500 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: References: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > The original "Flip Chip" was a packaging failure. It was literally a die bonded to a PCB > and never went into production. > > I think it is mentioned in "Computer Engineering" > > IBM perfected the techniques to do this later with the development of solder bumps and > IR reflow. Are you talking about the little black rectangles, sort of SIP packages, DEC tried in the late 1960s? They were a disaster with reliability, but they did ship. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 21 17:26:23 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 15:26:23 -0800 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: References: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <83d7e283-f7ea-9c6c-f277-7ee521ceba81@bitsavers.org> yea, that was it http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/XD37.80 I didn't know we had this example in the collection, they were hybrids like IBM SLDs Do you know of any module part numbers that used them? On 12/21/18 2:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The original "Flip Chip" was a packaging failure. It was literally a die bonded to a PCB >> and never went into production. >> >> I think it is mentioned in "Computer Engineering" >> >> IBM perfected the techniques to do this later with the development of solder bumps and >> IR reflow. > > Are you talking about the little black rectangles, sort of SIP > packages, DEC tried in the late 1960s? They were a disaster with > reliability, but they did ship. > > -- > Will > From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 17:49:03 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 00:49:03 +0100 Subject: Public buy/sell/trade In-Reply-To: <654DD778-CD59-48DD-8C38-E2918E1B81C4@avanthar.com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> <014401d49942$7d8f1f90$78ad5eb0$@com> <654DD778-CD59-48DD-8C38-E2918E1B81C4@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > As someone that actually has to worry about such things you mean as someone who received a legal threat for a project? we got one for the DTB website, and it was not nice ... it's one of the reasons why we dropped the experimental-bay since if it involves a little business then things go even worse > And yes, it?s a PITA for businesses and websites, > but I for one wish we had something similar in the US. which problems do you have in the US? anything similar to GDPR? tell me there is a dude in Virginia (US), telling me he can put emails and confidential data (address, phone, etc) in public without any authorization from the owner. I don't know if he is legally allowed do it, but 5 months have already passed without a fine for him ... whereas if you do it in Switzerland or in Italy, you immediately get a legal threat, and/or a fine p.s. look at Facebook Europe vs Facebook US which of the two did get a fine? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 17:53:33 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 18:53:33 -0500 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: <83d7e283-f7ea-9c6c-f277-7ee521ceba81@bitsavers.org> References: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <83d7e283-f7ea-9c6c-f277-7ee521ceba81@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: They use the same R and S numbers, just late revision suffices. I have a machine made with them that sometimes even works. I have a bunch that have had the gold fingers peeled off (don't blame me - I got them this way). -- Will On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 6:26 PM Al Kossow wrote: > > yea, that was it > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/XD37.80 > > I didn't know we had this example in the collection, they were > hybrids like IBM SLDs > > Do you know of any module part numbers that used them? > > > On 12/21/18 2:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> The original "Flip Chip" was a packaging failure. It was literally a die bonded to a PCB > >> and never went into production. > >> > >> I think it is mentioned in "Computer Engineering" > >> > >> IBM perfected the techniques to do this later with the development of solder bumps and > >> IR reflow. > > > > Are you talking about the little black rectangles, sort of SIP > > packages, DEC tried in the late 1960s? They were a disaster with > > reliability, but they did ship. > > > > -- > > Will > > > From info at cvmakerspace.ca Fri Dec 21 17:53:52 2018 From: info at cvmakerspace.ca (Columbia Valley Maker Space) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:53:52 -0700 Subject: Vintage Radio Catalogs Message-ID: <88fd0e9b09586929b03a8f428b131a00@cvmakerspace.ca> Hi, everyone: In addition to the classic computers I play with, I also have a collection of 1930 vintage radio equipment catalogs and magazines collecting dust on my bookshelf. Is there a similar mailing list for vintage radio guys? These books I have need a new home .... Cheers, Brian -- Brian McIntosh Columbia Valley Maker Space Communications Guy info at cvmakerspace.ca 250 270 0689 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 21 18:15:03 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 19:15:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name] Message-ID: <20181222001503.1754B18C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Degnan > It's pretty well researched at this point to be true to state that the > first two PDP 11 models were the 11/10 and 11/20. It just takes a while > for this to work its way through academia. Some places got the message a while ago: http://gunkies.org/w/index.php?title=PDP-11&diff=11528&oldid=11525 Note the date. I was reading the 1970 "pdp11 handbook" (note the title - all the pictures show machines labelled "pdp11") and read about it there. > From: Paul Koning > I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that > memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would > be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). I think that's what it must be. It's the MR11-A, about which I can find very little - it's in the 1970 "pdp11 handbook", p. 46, but I can't find anything else. It says there "2-piece core with wire braid, 256 wires, 64 cores". Reading between the lines, it sounds like the customer could 'configure' the contents (perhaps using the "2-piece core), DEC didn't do it. If anyone knows anything about this memory, that would be really good. Noel From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Dec 21 18:21:47 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 00:21:47 +0000 Subject: Vintage Radio Catalogs In-Reply-To: <88fd0e9b09586929b03a8f428b131a00@cvmakerspace.ca> References: <88fd0e9b09586929b03a8f428b131a00@cvmakerspace.ca> Message-ID: <2a1d9622028346948125980b3b7162ad@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/boatanchors might be good. 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Columbia Valley Maker Space via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 6:54 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Vintage Radio Catalogs Hi, everyone: In addition to the classic computers I play with, I also have a collection of 1930 vintage radio equipment catalogs and magazines collecting dust on my bookshelf. Is there a similar mailing list for vintage radio guys? These books I have need a new home .... Cheers, Brian -- Brian McIntosh Columbia Valley Maker Space Communications Guy info at cvmakerspace.ca 250 270 0689 From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 21 18:37:29 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 19:37:29 -0500 Subject: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name] In-Reply-To: <20181222001503.1754B18C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181222001503.1754B18C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8E31E4EB-33A4-4F86-BFB7-599136FEA2CA@comcast.net> > On Dec 21, 2018, at 7:15 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > ... >> From: Paul Koning > >> I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that >> memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would >> be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). > > I think that's what it must be. It's the MR11-A, about which I can find very > little - it's in the 1970 "pdp11 handbook", p. 46, but I can't find anything > else. > > It says there "2-piece core with wire braid, 256 wires, 64 cores". Reading > between the lines, it sounds like the customer could 'configure' the contents > (perhaps using the "2-piece core), DEC didn't do it. > > If anyone knows anything about this memory, that would be really good. > > Noel That description makes it sound like transformer memory (cores operating as linear devices), as opposed to be square hysteresis loop memory such as conventional core RAM as well as Apollo or EL-X1 core ROM. Brent Hilpert wrote a good explanation of the various kinds. The "transformer" type he describes is the Wang calculator microcode ROM. For 1k by 16, core rope memory would use more cores but fewer wires. And it might be slower because (in the Apollo flavor at least, which is the one DEC would be likely to know about since it came from Lincoln Labs) it takes a two-part cycle to read a word. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Dec 21 19:20:42 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 18:20:42 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <4ed98a60-fd56-bccf-abf2-bae24fdbeeff@comcast.net> <17449fb4-a415-339d-f6db-0131663059e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <02261bd2-166d-3e9f-bb47-567c5f367cee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/21/18 3:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I?m afraid I?ll have to agree with Jim here. When talking about > Retro Gaming, in most cases, the Raspberry Pi, while better than nothing, > aren?t as good as the real thing, especially in regards to video > and audio. There's nothing to be afraid of. I was asking from a position of ignorance because I've not used either. I have some colleagues at work that use the Raspberry Pi. So I know of, but not about, it. > I was seriously excited about the Retron77 (Atari 2600) that was recently > released, but on getting it, I found that it wasn?t able to play a > fair number of the cartridges I?ve tried with it. :-( > DOS games never had *KNOWN* set of hardware they?d be running on, > as a result I think they?re likely more forgiving. > > Now despite what I just said about the Raspberry Pi, I have three of > them around here, one is a small VAX running OpenVMS 7.3, one is a DPS-8 > running Multics, and the other a KL-10B running TOPS-20. I had dreams > of building a VMS cluster of RPi 3+?s, but have kind of gone off that > idea, due to the superior performance I get using my VMware Cluster to > host VAX instances. I'll have to check out the DPS-8 and KL-10B. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Dec 21 19:23:45 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 18:23:45 -0700 Subject: Public buy/sell/trade In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> <014401d49942$7d8f1f90$78ad5eb0$@com> <654DD778-CD59-48DD-8C38-E2918E1B81C4@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 12/21/18 4:49 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > you mean as someone who received a legal threat for a project? we got > one for the DTB website, and it was not nice ... > > it's one of the reasons why we dropped the experimental-bay since if it > involves a little business then things go even worse I wonder how many things are changing what they do or even not starting something new because of GDPR. > there is a dude in Virginia (US), telling me he can put emails > and confidential data (address, phone, etc) in public without any > authorization from the owner. Anybody can do anything they are capable of doing. The fact that they can do it does NOT make it legal to do. Murder is not legal, yet it still happens all over the world. > I don't know if he is legally allowed do it, but 5 months have already > passed without a fine for him ... whereas if you do it in Switzerland > or in Italy, you immediately get a legal threat, and/or a fine Sounds like he is getting lucky. Or nobody is motivated to stop him yet. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 21:08:32 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 21:08:32 -0600 Subject: Public buy/sell/trade In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> <014401d49942$7d8f1f90$78ad5eb0$@com> <654DD778-CD59-48DD-8C38-E2918E1B81C4@avanthar.com> Message-ID: north amarican inforcement is most complaint based inforcement. were as from what i know from friends in europe its proactive in many cases On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 7:23 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/21/18 4:49 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > you mean as someone who received a legal threat for a project? we got > > one for the DTB website, and it was not nice ... > > > > it's one of the reasons why we dropped the experimental-bay since if it > > involves a little business then things go even worse > > I wonder how many things are changing what they do or even not starting > something new because of GDPR. > > > there is a dude in Virginia (US), telling me he can put emails > > and confidential data (address, phone, etc) in public without any > > authorization from the owner. > > Anybody can do anything they are capable of doing. The fact that they > can do it does NOT make it legal to do. Murder is not legal, yet it > still happens all over the world. > > > I don't know if he is legally allowed do it, but 5 months have already > > passed without a fine for him ... whereas if you do it in Switzerland > > or in Italy, you immediately get a legal threat, and/or a fine > > Sounds like he is getting lucky. Or nobody is motivated to stop him yet. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Dec 21 21:09:22 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 19:09:22 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <02261bd2-166d-3e9f-bb47-567c5f367cee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <4ed98a60-fd56-bccf-abf2-bae24fdbeeff@comcast.net> <17449fb4-a415-339d-f6db-0131663059e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <02261bd2-166d-3e9f-bb47-567c5f367cee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 21, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/21/18 3:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I?m afraid I?ll have to agree with Jim here. When talking about Retro Gaming, in most cases, the Raspberry Pi, while better than nothing, aren?t as good as the real thing, especially in regards to video and audio. > > There's nothing to be afraid of. > > I was asking from a position of ignorance because I've not used either. I have some colleagues at work that use the Raspberry Pi. So I know of, but not about, it. The Raspberry Pi?s are a pretty impressive little tool for situations where they have enough resources. For the purpose of emulation, they?re a great platform. The problem is less with the Raspberry Pi, and more with emulation as a whole. In other words, this is a software issue, not a hardware issue. >> Now despite what I just said about the Raspberry Pi, I have three of them around here, one is a small VAX running OpenVMS 7.3, one is a DPS-8 running Multics, and the other a KL-10B running TOPS-20. I had dreams of building a VMS cluster of RPi 3+?s, but have kind of gone off that idea, due to the superior performance I get using my VMware Cluster to host VAX instances. > > I'll have to check out the DPS-8 and KL-10B. For the PDP-10, my favorite is KLH10. http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/pdp10emu.html For the DPS-8, there really is only one option, and sadly GCOS-8 isn?t available, only Multics. Still it?s pretty cool to finally be able to use Multics, and it?s a lot more user friendly than GCOS-8 (I used to be a Systems Analyst at a DPS-8 mainframe site). http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/Honeywell_DPS-8.html For those unaware, my DEC Emulation pages had to move late last year, due to my ISP of ~20 years being ransacked by a Crook. I managed to do quite a bit of work updating the pages earlier this year. Zane From commodorejohn at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 21:46:15 2018 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 19:46:15 -0800 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name Message-ID: I'd definitely be interested to hear if the DECheads on this list know the specifics, but I'd gathered that it came about once other models were introduced and the need arose to differentiate between, say, a PDP-8/e and a "straight" (i.e. vanilla) PDP-8. The car connection probably made the particular phrasing happen (of course, they originally photographed it in a Volkswagen, but they couldn't very well have started calling it a "flat-4!") From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Dec 21 22:02:59 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 22:02:59 -0600 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: References: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5C1DB773.40709@pico-systems.com> On 12/21/2018 10:51 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/21/18 5:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> The DEC brochure for it (P5141) is a little puzzling; it says (p. 2) that >> "INTEGRATED CIRCUITS are basic elements of the low cost, newly designed >> silicon FLIP CHIP modules used throughout PDP-7", but AFAIK, the first FLIP >> CHIPs (R-series, B-series, etc) were all transistors; the later M-series were >> the first ones to have ICs. Maybe this is some old meaning of "integrated >> circuits"? > The original "Flip Chip" was a packaging failure. It was literally a die bonded to a PCB > and never went into production. > > I think it is mentioned in "Computer Engineering" > > IBM perfected the techniques to do this later with the development of solder bumps and > IR reflow. The 360 was announced in 1964, first delivered in 1965, using "flip chip" bonding of discrete transistors and diodes on ceramic substrates, their "SLT" packaging. So, I'm not too sure about the "later". The original PDP-8 was introduced in 1965. Jon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 21 23:21:34 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 22:21:34 -0700 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4bb9a026-57f6-7300-9ca3-9107d8a428e2@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/21/2018 8:46 PM, John Ames via cctalk wrote: > I'd definitely be interested to hear if the DECheads on this list know > the specifics, but I'd gathered that it came about once other models > were introduced and the need arose to differentiate between, say, a > PDP-8/e and a "straight" (i.e. vanilla) PDP-8. The car connection > probably made the particular phrasing happen (of course, they > originally photographed it in a Volkswagen, but they couldn't very > well have started calling it a "flat-4!") > Well your flat 4 can get you a few $$$ as nice little aircraft engine. Happy Flying. Ben. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 21 23:23:17 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 05:23:17 +0000 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I worked with PDP-8's from 1970 to 1975 and worked at DEC from 1975 to 1985. I cannot recall the term 'Straight 8' ever being used. I think it may have been referred to as the 'Model 8' Rod Smallwood On 22/12/2018 03:46, John Ames via cctalk wrote: > I'd definitely be interested to hear if the DECheads on this list know > the specifics, but I'd gathered that it came about once other models > were introduced and the need arose to differentiate between, say, a > PDP-8/e and a "straight" (i.e. vanilla) PDP-8. The car connection > probably made the particular phrasing happen (of course, they > originally photographed it in a Volkswagen, but they couldn't very > well have started calling it a "flat-4!") -- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 21 23:25:44 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 22:25:44 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <4ed98a60-fd56-bccf-abf2-bae24fdbeeff@comcast.net> <17449fb4-a415-339d-f6db-0131663059e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <02261bd2-166d-3e9f-bb47-567c5f367cee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 12/21/2018 8:09 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > For the DPS-8, there really is only one option, and sadly GCOS-8 isn?t available, only Multics. Still it?s pretty cool to finally be able to use Multics, and it?s a lot more user friendly than GCOS-8 (I used to be a Systems Analyst at a DPS-8 mainframe site). > http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/Honeywell_DPS-8.html > > For those unaware, my DEC Emulation pages had to move late last year, due to my ISP of ~20 years being ransacked by a Crook. I managed to do quite a bit of work updating the pages earlier this year. > > Zane > So where are your pages? Google seems to have changed the algorithm to randomly match on any word, so searching for DEC Emulation, most likely get a Christmas pajamas. Ben. From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Dec 21 23:37:47 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 21:37:47 -0800 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <4ed98a60-fd56-bccf-abf2-bae24fdbeeff@comcast.net> <17449fb4-a415-339d-f6db-0131663059e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <02261bd2-166d-3e9f-bb47-567c5f367cee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <3CE71C0A-143C-41DE-897C-F27ACB7AC233@avanthar.com> > On Dec 21, 2018, at 9:25 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/21/2018 8:09 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> For the DPS-8, there really is only one option, and sadly GCOS-8 isn?t available, only Multics. Still it?s pretty cool to finally be able to use Multics, and it?s a lot more user friendly than GCOS-8 (I used to be a Systems Analyst at a DPS-8 mainframe site). >> http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/Honeywell_DPS-8.html >> For those unaware, my DEC Emulation pages had to move late last year, due to my ISP of ~20 years being ransacked by a Crook. I managed to do quite a bit of work updating the pages earlier this year. >> Zane > So where are your pages? > Google seems to have changed the algorithm to randomly match on any word, so searching for DEC Emulation, most likely get a Christmas pajamas. > Ben. Did the above URL not work? That?s one of the non-DEC pages. Unfortunately Google still seems to only turn up old mirrors. Zane From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 23:42:56 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 23:42:56 -0600 Subject: Vintage Radio Catalogs In-Reply-To: <88fd0e9b09586929b03a8f428b131a00@cvmakerspace.ca> References: <88fd0e9b09586929b03a8f428b131a00@cvmakerspace.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 5:54 PM Columbia Valley Maker Space via cctalk wrote: > Is there a similar mailing list for vintage radio guys? These books I > have need a new home .... As the URL suggests, these guy(s) specialize in early radio history. They also do a ton of scanning and host their own docs. If you can find contact info there, they may be interested in what you have: https://www.americanradiohistory.com -j From jfehlinger at comcast.net Fri Dec 21 15:53:48 2018 From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:53:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name Message-ID: <1435030361.363560.1545429229068@connect.xfinity.com> On 12/21/18 2:51 PM, Jim Carpenter via cctalk wrote: > The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list predates alt.sys.pdp8 by a couple years. I > just checked the archives and the earliest usage of 'straight-8' is from > Charles Lasner in an e-mail introducing himself to the still new mailing > list on August 10th, 1990. . . > > A quick check shows that it was common for cjl to use the term 'straight-8'. . . Well, in the original edition of Ted Nelson's _Computer Lib_ (copyright 1974), on p. 47 (under the heading "Those Adorable Infuriating R.E.S.I.S.T.O.R.S."), there's a photo with the caption: "Steve at the old straight 8." From classiccmp at earthlink.net Fri Dec 21 22:30:33 2018 From: classiccmp at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 20:30:33 -0800 Subject: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name] In-Reply-To: References: <20181221181021.B052418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <679b7cf7-8b36-3478-c10b-4567739e4483@charter.net> Message-ID: Are you sure the referenced early PDP-11/10 wasn't really the PDP-11/15? We got an 11/15 because it was cheaper and DEC had one sitting around that we could get with end of year left over budget funds. On 12/21/18 2:00 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:47 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal >>>>> 'model' >>>>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20 >>>>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all >> the >>>>> other -8's. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers >> did >>>> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called >> PDP >>>> 11/10 and PDP 11/20. These are just as legitimate and well defined as >> the >>>> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one >> fact of >>>> the front plate. The fact that the name does not appear on the front >> panel >>>> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid. Read the first >>>> brochure, don't take my word for it. >>>> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 >>>> >>>> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 >> and >>>> 11/10 existed from day one. The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10 >>>> model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the >>>> original 11/10 model. >>>> >>>> Bill >>> >>> Wow. >>> >>> Did that V1 11/10 ever ship? Do any still exist? >>> >>> I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that >> memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be >> pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). >>> >>> paul >>> >>> >> >> It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and >> pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by >> the latter 11/10 variant by 1972. >> >> Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near >> as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?) >> that they just dropped it. Or maybe a marketing / design team >> communication misstep. >> >> The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to >> the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns >> (same as the RAM core). It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256 >> words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20. >> >> The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every >> 1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle >> times). >> >> As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those >> who ordered 11/10's). >> > > When you consider the differences between the 11/35 and 11/40 were simply > option choices and the later 11/10 11/05, I can see no reason why the > "original 11/10 11/20 is any different other than the front plate being > "PDP-11" for the later pairing. I am unaware of any 11/10's still around > but I am also unaware of any Rolm 1601's that still exist, does not mean it > was not a real Ruggednova model. etc. > > Basically it's being inconsistent to not acknowledge the original 11/10. > > We could say that the PDP 11 models were > 11/20 > 11/45 > 11/40 > 11/10 > > ... and ignore the original 11/10, plus the 11/35 and 11/05. > > I will still sleep well at night regardless what officialdom decides. :-) > > Bill > From classiccmp at earthlink.net Fri Dec 21 22:34:17 2018 From: classiccmp at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 20:34:17 -0800 Subject: Origin of 'Straight 8' name In-Reply-To: References: <20181221151044.2E7DA18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33fa0213-3dac-efc3-1bcc-9c3992afa49e@bitsavers.org> <61076f9b-61fe-460d-47f1-e5642fd91c52@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8cabcda3-f3c8-8780-4ab3-13e228ba9c67@earthlink.net> In 1968-69 my bedroom was right over PDP-8 #6. It's been 50 years, but it may have been referred to as a "straight-8" then? On 12/21/18 12:51 PM, Jim Carpenter via cctalk wrote: > On 12/21/18 1:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >>> "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors >>> >>> I never heard it called that before then. >> Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date? > > The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list predates alt.sys.pdp8 by a couple years. I > just checked the archives and the earliest usage of 'straight-8' is from > Charles Lasner in an e-mail introducing himself to the still new mailing > list on August 10th, 1990. I've pasted his complete message at the > bottom. The 'straight -8' is mentioned in the second sentence of his > second paragraph. > > A quick check shows that it was common for cjl to use the term > 'straight-8'. > >> I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to >> search Usenet by date right now. >> >> > > I miss DejaNews. Damn I hate Google. > > Jim > > > Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Fri, 10 Aug > 90 05:37:28 EDT > Received: from life.ai.mit.edu ([128.52.32.80]) by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Fri, > 10 Aug 90 05:36:07 EDT > Received: from watsun.cc.columbia.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) > id AA00254; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:12:04 EDT > Received: by watsun.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB) > ??????? id AA20618; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:12:20 EDT > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT > From: Charles Lasner > To: PDP8-LOVERS at ai.mit.edu > Subject: Belated Mail Reply > Message-Id: > > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT > From: Charles Lasner > To: PDP8-LOVERS at ai.mit.edu > Subject: Belated Mail Reply > > >Received: from AI.AI.MIT.EDU (CHAOS 3130) by MC.LCS.MIT.EDU 18 Feb 89 > 10:32:35 EST > >Date: Sat, 18 Feb 89 10:32:31 EST > >From: "Robert E. Seastrom" > >To: pdp8-lovers at MC.LCS.MIT.EDU > >Message-ID: <540513.890218.RS at AI.AI.MIT.EDU> > > > > > >Well, folks, it's finally here.? The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list is now > >reality!? Messages for the list go to PDP8-LOVERS at MC.LCS.MIT.EDU; > >requests to be added to or deleted from the list go to > >PDP8-LOVERS-REQUEST at MC.LCS.MIT.EDU (case is _not_ critical here). > > > >Perhaps we ought to all introduce ourselves to each other... > > > >????????? This one's for you <7001> > > > >????????????????????? -Rob > > From:?? cjl > > ??? Let me introduce myself.? I am Charles J. Lasner.? I only use the > J to get my initials, which I usually go by, thus cjl. > > ??? I am a PDP-8 programmer.? I don't know how many of us there are > left, but I started in 1968 with a straight -8 table-top machine at > Brooklyn PolyTechnic Institute.? The school probably has another name > by now, due to academia's answer to the business world's phenomena of > acquisitions and mergers.? The machine in question is quite > legendary.? The work done on it is responsible in LARGE part for why > all of us are here reading this, since this is the "original" PDP-8 > used by the legendary Richard Lary and company.? If it can be said > that the PDP-8 created the phrase "mini-computer", then it is THIS > PDP-8 that made the "mini-computer" into something other than a > paper-tape machine! > > ??? This PDP-8 was originally configured by the academics in charge > as a programmer's disaster: 4K, EAE, a model 33 teletype, AF01A A-D > converter with 16-channel multiplexor,? AA01A D-A converter with > (wow!) THREE channels.? A Bud blue rack cabinet housed the A-D and > D-A with lots of empty space.? All empty slots had those wonderful > super-thick zinctone panels, and the fronts were all in place; they > were held in place with those pressed-in heavy shiny metal threaded > bosses that most of you can't figure out the purpose of on your > wire-wrap racks.? As far as I know, these were the only style of > cabinet that the bosses were supplied for.? The plates used heavy > nickel-plated knurled knobs with a screw-driver slot you could turn > with a dime. > > ??? Soon after all of this arrived, and got nowhere due to the > enormous waste of time paper-tape can be (especially at 110 baud and > unreliable at that!), a DEC salesman suggested a high-speed > reader/punch be added.? Fortunately for all of us, THIS NEVER > HAPPENED, for if it had, no further work of external significence > would have been done.? (The EE department would have been very happy > to just develop their diddly A-D and D-A experiment programs.) > > ??? Due to the efforts of Richard Lary, Jack Burness, Hank Maurer, > Lenny Elekman, and Joseph R. Fischetti (to name a few legends I > knew), the EE department was convinced to spend MORE money on some > new-fangled beast the salesman had vaguely heard of; he was fairly > certain it was called a MicroTape.? This was, of course, an early > name for DECtape.? So the EE department shelled out another $8k and > got itself another Bud blue rack cabinet complete with sides, another > power controller, 11 buss cables, and a TC01 and one (yes one!) TU55 > DECtape drive.? The academics thought that the drive was custom made > for the PDP-8, because the numeral "8" always appeared on the drive > select.? (No need to change drives when you have only one of them!) I > later found out why the "8" was there (not "0"): > > ??? This is a throwback to the earlier Microtape drives used mostly > on the PDP-6 which are really DECtape drives, but with an entirly > different interface to the PDP-8, which really belongs to the PDP-5 > era.? I believe that the PDP-5 doesn't support 3-cycle data-break, > because this is a single-cycle interface.? This limits programming > possibilities. (Another subject entirely!) > > ??? I believe the only programming for this earlier hardware was an > original version of the DECtape Library System which I had contact > with on the TC01/TU55 (an incompatible later version, but obviously > less obscure).? The interesting point is that while the TC01 has a > three-bit drive select register, where all cases are viable, this > earlier hardware had a FOUR-bit register, so drives had to be > selected as 1-8.? Clearing the register deselects all drives, whereas > when talking to the "Solid-State DECtape" drive, as the TU55 was > originally known, you are selecting drive zero.? Apparently there > were hardware adaptations to theoretically connect the TU55 as a > microtape drive (using RELAY LOGIC level converters instead of the > jumper cards usually in the drives), so they thought in terms of the > original microtape nomenclature of 1-8.? Years later (I think first > done for the benefit of the PDP-12 LINCtape) they had an ECO to glue > a 0 over the 8. > > ??? Soon after the TC01/TU56 cabinet arrived, the 33 teletype started > failing (which is normal!) from "normal" use (reading paper-tapes!). > They had their first "run-in" with DEC Field Service, whose members > sort of knew what to do with the -8, but they KILLED teletypes! > Eventually, they purchased a PT08, the only hardware on this machine > to use ICs (RTL chips only, TTL came later!).? With it came an > additional teletype, a model 35 (without paper-tape).? The 35 became > the 03/04-connected one, and the 33 was "banished" to the PT08. (And > over the years it "walked" out of the PDP-8 room to be "borrowed" by > various groups, only to be "retrieved" periodically.) > > ??? Fortunately, a private teletype maintenance company contacted the > school and eventually won a teletype-only maintenance contract, over > DEC's objections.? Since these teletypes were so over-used, it became > necessary to rotate them between the PT08 and the console to keep > them working.? We even created software to SLOW DOWN the teletype, > since it was noticed that an out-of-adjustment 35 will work FINE if > run at 89% of maximum speed (that's 89% of 110 baud!) when it starts > jumbling characters at 100% speed. > > ??? This machine was setup on a large desk, with the teletypes > nearby, and a Bud cabinet at either end.? We didn't have the nice > Formica table option.? So much software was toggled into this machine > that I personally replaced the slide switches which wore out!? I also > repaired the CPU several years later, after DEC Field Service swore > they couldn't get it to work after 9 months of trying. > > ??? The problem was that there are isolation diodes in the wires that > run from various registers to the light panel, which has lamp drivers > and soldered in lamps on it.? Periodically we would replace the > occasional blown transistor driver and numerous blown bulbs. > (Touching the panel was a calculated risk since you killed even more > lamps by doing it!) > > ??? The diodes are located on the card edge where all of the wires > are soldered close together, and plugged into the backplane; there > are several such cards.? The wires break off easily, and hasty > repairers would sloppily solder them back to the board lugs. > Eventually some diodes shorted, so the capacitance of the wires now > loaded the affected driver.? Also there now was the possibility of > cross-talk between the wires collector-triggering the gates!? This is > why the machine was so prone to random failure.? (It worked in > single-step mode.) > > ??? Replacing the diodes didn't completely work, because there was > yet another problem: the diodes were photo-sensitive!? DEC attempted > to light-shield the diodes by painting them.? This paint got scraped > off of them due to the soldering, etc., so the machine was sensitive > to its own lamps being lit!? It worked better in room darkness, so we > got the idea about inadvertent photo-diodes!? Painting the diodes > solved the last remaining problem.? I almost single-handedly got the > machine back up (there were other random problems as well, but they > were easier to solve, like the tendancy for a PT08 to burn up a land > UNDER a chip where you couldn't see it!), and got the thanks of the > faculty members of the EE department, who would have scrapped the > machine if it was unrepairable! > > ??? Although this wasn't my first computer, it was my first DEC > computer.? I have stayed with the PDP-8's to this day.? I was then > and now a programmer, but we all participated in keeping the machine > up.? I can trace my extensive DEC hardware background to this > beginning (as well as DEC software!). > > cjl (Charles Lasner) > ??? (lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu or lasner at cunixf.cc.columbia.edu) > > From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 05:16:42 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 12:16:42 +0100 Subject: Public buy/sell/trade In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <3.0.6.32.20181221094651.01122808@mail.optusnet.com.au> <014401d49942$7d8f1f90$78ad5eb0$@com> <654DD778-CD59-48DD-8C38-E2918E1B81C4@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > north amarican inforcement is most complaint based inforcement. were as > from what i know from friends in europe its proactive in many cases yep, precisely my point :D From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 05:57:25 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 06:57:25 -0500 Subject: Vintage Radio Catalogs In-Reply-To: <2a1d9622028346948125980b3b7162ad@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <88fd0e9b09586929b03a8f428b131a00@cvmakerspace.ca> <2a1d9622028346948125980b3b7162ad@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: Donate to the radio history museum in wall township, NJ. InfoAge is the facility that hosts their museum. It's really nicely done. Bill On Fri, Dec 21, 2018, 7:21 PM W2HX via cctalk http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/boatanchors > > might be good. > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Columbia > Valley Maker Space via cctalk > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 6:54 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Vintage Radio Catalogs > > Hi, everyone: > > In addition to the classic computers I play with, I also have a > collection of 1930 vintage radio equipment catalogs and magazines > collecting dust on my bookshelf. > > Is there a similar mailing list for vintage radio guys? These books I > have need a new home .... > > Cheers, > > Brian > > -- > Brian McIntosh > Columbia Valley Maker Space Communications Guy > info at cvmakerspace.ca > 250 270 0689 > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 06:04:28 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 07:04:28 -0500 Subject: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name] In-Reply-To: References: <20181221181021.B052418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <679b7cf7-8b36-3478-c10b-4567739e4483@charter.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 3:50 AM David C. Jenner via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > Are you sure the referenced early PDP-11/10 wasn't really the PDP-11/15? > We got an 11/15 because it was cheaper and DEC had one sitting around > that we could get with end of year left over budget funds. > Yes. The "11/15" did not exist in 1969 early 1970 documents from DEC and articles, including the original product brochure and pricelist: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 Bill From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 11:19:33 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 12:19:33 -0500 Subject: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name] In-Reply-To: References: <20181221181021.B052418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <679b7cf7-8b36-3478-c10b-4567739e4483@charter.net> Message-ID: when the multi rack PDP11/20 (on the switch panel) was being assembled for delivery to Aeroflote, circa 1971 or 2 iirc, the unit did not have a working power fail recovery capability. The machine was then referred to as an 11/15. At that time, the PDP11 was considered a controlled technolgy item, and there were some guys present for the testing in the mill on 1-2. Anyone familiar with 1=2 at that time, knows the floors did shift with heavy loads. This caused said computer to suffer power failures as the racks shifted, bus cables shifted and the machine would crash. after about the 15th crash, no pun intended, the delivery to Aeroflot was approved. A couple of years later, the Ryad version of the 11 was delivered to a shop, and found to be an exact duplicate of the delivered 11. it dd not have power fail capability. bob On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 7:05 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 3:50 AM David C. Jenner via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > Are you sure the referenced early PDP-11/10 wasn't really the PDP-11/15? > > We got an 11/15 because it was cheaper and DEC had one sitting around > > that we could get with end of year left over budget funds. > > > > Yes. The "11/15" did not exist in 1969 early 1970 documents from DEC and > articles, including the original product brochure and pricelist: > > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 > > Bill From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 15:25:43 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 15:25:43 -0600 Subject: Unknown paper tape format Message-ID: I found a spool of mylar tape dated 23 March 1972, with "EARS" on it; best I can tell, this was for the Experimental Array Radar System. Image can be found here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=11VKKklor1QDyWCz0b3zVNj_I_vmt4oN4 Anyone have any clue as to the format? Here's the beginning of the tape: 0000000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 * 0000060 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 40 40 40 08 e5 0000070 43 c1 40 5b 43 c1 40 dc 43 c1 40 5d 43 c1 40 5e 0000080 43 c1 40 df 43 c1 40 e0 43 c1 40 61 43 c1 40 62 0000090 43 c1 40 e3 43 c1 40 64 43 c1 40 f1 c2 c1 40 f2 00000a0 c2 c1 40 73 c2 c1 40 f4 c2 c1 40 75 c2 c1 40 f7 00000b0 c2 c1 40 45 43 c1 40 46 43 c1 40 c7 43 c1 40 c8 00000c0 43 c1 40 49 43 c1 40 4a 43 c1 40 4c 43 c1 40 cb 00000d0 43 c1 40 d5 43 c1 40 d6 43 c1 40 4a 40 c1 40 cd 00000e0 40 c1 40 cb 40 c1 40 7f e0 c1 40 f2 45 c2 40 57 00000f0 43 c1 40 58 43 c1 40 d9 43 c1 40 da 43 c1 40 6e and the end: 0006400 45 c2 40 57 4c c1 40 5e 4c c1 40 f4 cb c1 40 e5 0006410 4c c1 40 fb cb c1 40 ec 4c c1 40 e0 7f 7f 40 40 0006420 40 c7 40 73 4c c1 40 7a 4c c1 40 c7 40 40 40 da 0006430 c8 c2 40 ef 57 c1 40 c1 cd c1 40 46 d0 d0 40 79 0006440 cd c1 40 d5 57 c1 40 4f cd c1 40 5d cd c1 40 c2 0006450 4c c1 40 6b cd c1 40 c8 cd c1 40 58 cb c1 40 df 0006460 cb c1 40 e6 cb c1 40 f2 cd c1 40 46 40 40 40 cd 0006470 40 40 40 4c 40 40 40 d5 d6 c1 40 d5 61 c1 40 40 0006480 61 c1 40 fb d3 c2 40 c7 ce c1 40 7f 57 c1 40 c2 0006490 cb c1 40 49 40 40 40 e3 d6 c1 40 f2 d6 c1 40 58 00064a0 57 c2 40 76 d9 c2 40 40 40 40 08 07 80 80 80 00 00064b0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 * 0006600 00 00 00 00 00 00 Would love to know what computer system this was running on. Thanks! Kyle From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 15:28:53 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 16:28:53 -0500 Subject: Unknown paper tape format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://books.google.com/books?id=Dhk9wHXfQMkC&pg=PA389&lpg=PA389&dq=EARS+experimental+automatic+radar+system+1970&source=bl&ots=JTwGKD81Y4&sig=a9Ikxih8Ef7E2TAX-V6xm8kuhhM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiVz7288rbfAhWBkpAKHWfUCkkQ6AEwDnoECBMQAQ#v=onepage&q=EARS%20experimental%20automatic%20radar%20system%201970&f=false On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 4:26 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > I found a spool of mylar tape dated 23 March 1972, with "EARS" on it; best > I can tell, this was for the Experimental Array Radar System. > > Image can be found here: > https://drive.google.com/open?id=11VKKklor1QDyWCz0b3zVNj_I_vmt4oN4 > > Anyone have any clue as to the format? Here's the beginning of the tape: > > 0000000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 > * > 0000060 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 40 40 40 08 e5 > 0000070 43 c1 40 5b 43 c1 40 dc 43 c1 40 5d 43 c1 40 5e > 0000080 43 c1 40 df 43 c1 40 e0 43 c1 40 61 43 c1 40 62 > 0000090 43 c1 40 e3 43 c1 40 64 43 c1 40 f1 c2 c1 40 f2 > 00000a0 c2 c1 40 73 c2 c1 40 f4 c2 c1 40 75 c2 c1 40 f7 > 00000b0 c2 c1 40 45 43 c1 40 46 43 c1 40 c7 43 c1 40 c8 > 00000c0 43 c1 40 49 43 c1 40 4a 43 c1 40 4c 43 c1 40 cb > 00000d0 43 c1 40 d5 43 c1 40 d6 43 c1 40 4a 40 c1 40 cd > 00000e0 40 c1 40 cb 40 c1 40 7f e0 c1 40 f2 45 c2 40 57 > 00000f0 43 c1 40 58 43 c1 40 d9 43 c1 40 da 43 c1 40 6e > > and the end: > > 0006400 45 c2 40 57 4c c1 40 5e 4c c1 40 f4 cb c1 40 e5 > 0006410 4c c1 40 fb cb c1 40 ec 4c c1 40 e0 7f 7f 40 40 > 0006420 40 c7 40 73 4c c1 40 7a 4c c1 40 c7 40 40 40 da > 0006430 c8 c2 40 ef 57 c1 40 c1 cd c1 40 46 d0 d0 40 79 > 0006440 cd c1 40 d5 57 c1 40 4f cd c1 40 5d cd c1 40 c2 > 0006450 4c c1 40 6b cd c1 40 c8 cd c1 40 58 cb c1 40 df > 0006460 cb c1 40 e6 cb c1 40 f2 cd c1 40 46 40 40 40 cd > 0006470 40 40 40 4c 40 40 40 d5 d6 c1 40 d5 61 c1 40 40 > 0006480 61 c1 40 fb d3 c2 40 c7 ce c1 40 7f 57 c1 40 c2 > 0006490 cb c1 40 49 40 40 40 e3 d6 c1 40 f2 d6 c1 40 58 > 00064a0 57 c2 40 76 d9 c2 40 40 40 40 08 07 80 80 80 00 > 00064b0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 > * > 0006600 00 00 00 00 00 00 > > Would love to know what computer system this was running on. > > Thanks! > > Kyle From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 15:42:37 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 16:42:37 -0500 Subject: Unknown paper tape format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not intel nor motorola format. Could be for some sort of ePROM or other data tape, read in after the load of the program like a SEQ disk file. There should still be some sort of checksum, regardless. B On Sun, Dec 23, 2018, 4:26 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk I found a spool of mylar tape dated 23 March 1972, with "EARS" on it; best > I can tell, this was for the Experimental Array Radar System. > > Image can be found here: > https://drive.google.com/open?id=11VKKklor1QDyWCz0b3zVNj_I_vmt4oN4 > > Anyone have any clue as to the format? Here's the beginning of the tape: > > 0000000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 > * > 0000060 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 40 40 40 08 e5 > 0000070 43 c1 40 5b 43 c1 40 dc 43 c1 40 5d 43 c1 40 5e > 0000080 43 c1 40 df 43 c1 40 e0 43 c1 40 61 43 c1 40 62 > 0000090 43 c1 40 e3 43 c1 40 64 43 c1 40 f1 c2 c1 40 f2 > 00000a0 c2 c1 40 73 c2 c1 40 f4 c2 c1 40 75 c2 c1 40 f7 > 00000b0 c2 c1 40 45 43 c1 40 46 43 c1 40 c7 43 c1 40 c8 > 00000c0 43 c1 40 49 43 c1 40 4a 43 c1 40 4c 43 c1 40 cb > 00000d0 43 c1 40 d5 43 c1 40 d6 43 c1 40 4a 40 c1 40 cd > 00000e0 40 c1 40 cb 40 c1 40 7f e0 c1 40 f2 45 c2 40 57 > 00000f0 43 c1 40 58 43 c1 40 d9 43 c1 40 da 43 c1 40 6e > > and the end: > > 0006400 45 c2 40 57 4c c1 40 5e 4c c1 40 f4 cb c1 40 e5 > 0006410 4c c1 40 fb cb c1 40 ec 4c c1 40 e0 7f 7f 40 40 > 0006420 40 c7 40 73 4c c1 40 7a 4c c1 40 c7 40 40 40 da > 0006430 c8 c2 40 ef 57 c1 40 c1 cd c1 40 46 d0 d0 40 79 > 0006440 cd c1 40 d5 57 c1 40 4f cd c1 40 5d cd c1 40 c2 > 0006450 4c c1 40 6b cd c1 40 c8 cd c1 40 58 cb c1 40 df > 0006460 cb c1 40 e6 cb c1 40 f2 cd c1 40 46 40 40 40 cd > 0006470 40 40 40 4c 40 40 40 d5 d6 c1 40 d5 61 c1 40 40 > 0006480 61 c1 40 fb d3 c2 40 c7 ce c1 40 7f 57 c1 40 c2 > 0006490 cb c1 40 49 40 40 40 e3 d6 c1 40 f2 d6 c1 40 58 > 00064a0 57 c2 40 76 d9 c2 40 40 40 40 08 07 80 80 80 00 > 00064b0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 > * > 0006600 00 00 00 00 00 00 > > Would love to know what computer system this was running on. > > Thanks! > > Kyle > From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 16:02:11 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 16:02:11 -0600 Subject: Unknown paper tape format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think I found some promising info...haven't read through it all yet: https://ia801201.us.archive.org/23/items/DTIC_ADA038326/DTIC_ADA038326.pdf Here's photos of the reel: https://photos.app.goo.gl/u4UdDYc1RxYGTSh99 I see mention of a SEL 8600 computer. I wonder if this is for the SEL, or closer to the front-end? Kyle From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 17:24:32 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 17:24:32 -0600 Subject: Another weird paper tape Message-ID: I have another paper tape...this time, it's 7-channel. I dumped it and found that it has very, very little data on it. Tape image here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kCiSiNuPvAPzBG0XCqBJiBoPhjmyvU21 Here's some of the first of the tape. 0000000 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 0000380 a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0000390 80 80 a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 00003a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 00003d0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 a0 80 80 80 80 80 00003e0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 0000430 80 80 80 80 88 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0000440 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 0000ca0 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0000cb0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 00010d0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 00010e0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 0001100 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001110 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001120 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001130 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001140 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001150 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001160 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 0001170 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 The tape is dated 22 October 1958. Any ideas what this could have been used for? The 8th channel is set since I read this on an 8-channel reader. Thanks, Kyle From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Dec 23 17:52:01 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:52:01 -0500 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59A02A21-2CFB-4E1F-9595-22A16CE98C26@comcast.net> > On Dec 23, 2018, at 6:24 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > I have another paper tape...this time, it's 7-channel. > > I dumped it and found that it has very, very little data on it. > ... > > The tape is dated 22 October 1958. Which country? I know of 7 track tape (actually 7 tracks wide, rather than 8 track 1-inch tape with channel 8 unused) from Electrologica in Holland, and the date would be a bit early but possible. But the data you gave doesn't look like anything meaningful. paul From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 23 17:56:31 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:56:31 -0500 Subject: Unknown paper tape format In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <167dd7faed5-60a5-27fa@webjas-vaa054.srv.aolmail.net> wonder if? for? ? a simulator? ? ed# In a message dated 12/23/2018 3:02:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? I think I found some promising info...haven't read through it all yet: https://ia801201.us.archive.org/23/items/DTIC_ADA038326/DTIC_ADA038326.pdf Here's photos of the reel: https://photos.app.goo.gl/u4UdDYc1RxYGTSh99 I see mention of a SEL 8600 computer. I wonder if this is for the SEL, or closer to the front-end? Kyle From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 23 18:08:50 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 19:08:50 -0500 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: <59A02A21-2CFB-4E1F-9595-22A16CE98C26@comcast.net> Message-ID: <167dd8aeeb1-275d-1ddc@webjas-vab104.srv.aolmail.net> was? some of the? flexowriter? ?7 level punches? Ed# In a message dated 12/23/2018 4:52:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > On Dec 23, 2018, at 6:24 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > I have another paper tape...this time, it's 7-channel. > > I dumped it and found that it has very, very little data on it. > ... > > The tape is dated 22 October 1958. Which country? I know of 7 track tape (actually 7 tracks wide, rather than 8 track 1-inch tape with channel 8 unused) from Electrologica in Holland, and the date would be a bit early but possible. But the data you gave doesn't look like anything meaningful. paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 18:13:06 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:13:06 -0600 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: <59A02A21-2CFB-4E1F-9595-22A16CE98C26@comcast.net> References: <59A02A21-2CFB-4E1F-9595-22A16CE98C26@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 23, 2018, 17:52 Paul Koning > > > On Dec 23, 2018, at 6:24 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I have another paper tape...this time, it's 7-channel. > > > > I dumped it and found that it has very, very little data on it. > > ... > > > > The tape is dated 22 October 1958. > > Which country? I know of 7 track tape (actually 7 tracks wide, rather > than 8 track 1-inch tape with channel 8 unused) from Electrologica in > Holland, and the date would be a bit early but possible. But the data you > gave doesn't look like anything meaningful. > USA. It is indeed 7 tracks wide. I didn't realize that until I tried dumping the tape today. First time I've come across 7-channel tape before. I thought it might be for sequencing a test, perhaps, but I'm not certain. Kyle From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 23 18:15:26 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 19:15:26 -0500 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <167dd90ffee-2763-2f8@webjas-vaa014.srv.aolmail.net> if it is? ?for a? ge? computer? I WANT IT! (grin!)? yea ha ha ! INPUT Media Speed Magnetic Tape 30,000 char/sec 3/4 inch tape - 10 channel - 2 digit in parallel. Paper Tape 200 char/sec 7 channel punch paper tape photo reader Flexowriter 10 char/sec 7 channel punch paper tape mechanical reader Sorter/readers 750 items/min Magnetic ink coded documents. The sorter/readers are equipped with character recognition. ? In a message dated 12/23/2018 4:24:52 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? I have another paper tape...this time, it's 7-channel. I dumped it and found that it has very, very little data on it. Tape image here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kCiSiNuPvAPzBG0XCqBJiBoPhjmyvU21 Here's some of the first of the tape. 0000000 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 0000380 a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0000390 80 80 a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 00003a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 00003d0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 a0 80 80 80 80 80 00003e0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 0000430 80 80 80 80 88 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0000440 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 0000ca0 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0000cb0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 00010d0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 00010e0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 0001100 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001110 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001120 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001130 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001140 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001150 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001160 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 0001170 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 The tape is dated 22 October 1958. Any ideas what this could have been used for? The 8th channel is set since I read this on an 8-channel reader. Thanks, Kyle From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 23 18:19:14 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 19:19:14 -0500 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: <167dd90ffee-2763-2f8@webjas-vaa014.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <167dd9473df-276c-1512@webjas-vab034.srv.aolmail.net> or the computer? asks....? DO? YOU? KNOW? MY? NAME ? ? ? In a message dated 12/23/2018 5:15:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? if it is? ?for a? ge? computer? I WANT IT! (grin!)? yea ha ha ! INPUT Media Speed Magnetic Tape 30,000 char/sec 3/4 inch tape - 10 channel - 2 digit in parallel. Paper Tape 200 char/sec 7 channel punch paper tape photo reader Flexowriter 10 char/sec 7 channel punch paper tape mechanical reader Sorter/readers 750 items/min Magnetic ink coded documents. The sorter/readers are equipped with character recognition. ? In a message dated 12/23/2018 4:24:52 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? I have another paper tape...this time, it's 7-channel. I dumped it and found that it has very, very little data on it. Tape image here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kCiSiNuPvAPzBG0XCqBJiBoPhjmyvU21 Here's some of the first of the tape. 0000000 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 0000380 a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0000390 80 80 a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 00003a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 00003d0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 a0 80 80 80 80 80 00003e0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 0000430 80 80 80 80 88 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0000440 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 0000ca0 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0000cb0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 00010d0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 00010e0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 * 0001100 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001110 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001120 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001130 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001140 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001150 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 0001160 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 0001170 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 The tape is dated 22 October 1958. Any ideas what this could have been used for? The 8th channel is set since I read this on an 8-channel reader. Thanks, Kyle From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 23 18:40:00 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 16:40:00 -0800 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <59A02A21-2CFB-4E1F-9595-22A16CE98C26@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/23/18 4:13 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > USA. It is indeed 7 tracks wide. I didn't realize that until I tried > dumping the tape today. First time I've come across 7-channel tape before. > 7-channel punches were available on the Flexowriter. MIT Whirlwind tapes are all 7-channel From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 18:58:48 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 16:58:48 -0800 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <59A02A21-2CFB-4E1F-9595-22A16CE98C26@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 4:52 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/23/18 4:13 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > > USA. It is indeed 7 tracks wide. I didn't realize that until I tried > > dumping the tape today. First time I've come across 7-channel tape > before. > > > > 7-channel punches were available on the Flexowriter. > MIT Whirlwind tapes are all 7-channel > > > As are the tapes on the CDC 160 - Josh From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Dec 23 19:34:41 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:34:41 -0500 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: <167dd8aeeb1-275d-1ddc@webjas-vab104.srv.aolmail.net> References: <167dd8aeeb1-275d-1ddc@webjas-vab104.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Yes, Flexowriter code is 7 bits. But on the Flexowriters I have seen, the machine actually uses standard 8 bit paper tape, it just doesn't punch the 8th row. Actual 7 rows wide tape is another thing entirely, that I have never seen in person but I've encountered in my reading and in photos from other collectors. paul > On Dec 23, 2018, at 7:08 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > was some of the flexowriter 7 level punches? > Ed# > In a message dated 12/23/2018 4:52:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > >> On Dec 23, 2018, at 6:24 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have another paper tape...this time, it's 7-channel. >> >> I dumped it and found that it has very, very little data on it. >> ... >> >> The tape is dated 22 October 1958. > > Which country? I know of 7 track tape (actually 7 tracks wide, rather than 8 track 1-inch tape with channel 8 unused) from Electrologica in Holland, and the date would be a bit early but possible. But the data you gave doesn't look like anything meaningful. > > paul > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 23 19:52:40 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:52:40 -0500 Subject: wanted any and all XSCRIBE closed caption related and steno typer key board related ... docs... parts.. units building up an working analog CC demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area. will consider othe brand gear too Message-ID: <167ddea04a5-227e-283b@webjas-vac011.srv.aolmail.net> wanted any and all XSCRIBE closed caption related and steno typer key board related ... docs... parts.. units building up an working analog CC demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area. will consider othe brand gear to if even just for static display too.... Interested in ad materials photos, war stories. etc etc thanks. Ed Sharpe Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 23 19:52:40 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:52:40 -0500 Subject: wanted any and all XSCRIBE closed caption related and steno typer key board related ... docs... parts.. units building up an working analog CC demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area. will consider othe brand gear too Message-ID: <167ddea04a5-227e-283b@webjas-vac011.srv.aolmail.net> wanted any and all XSCRIBE closed caption related and steno typer key board related ... docs... parts.. units building up an working analog CC demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area. will consider othe brand gear to if even just for static display too.... Interested in ad materials photos, war stories. etc etc thanks. Ed Sharpe Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 23 20:29:05 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:29:05 -0800 Subject: wanted any and all XSCRIBE closed caption related and steno typer key board related ... docs... parts.. units building up an working analog CC demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area. will consider othe brand gear too In-Reply-To: <167ddea04a5-227e-283b@webjas-vac011.srv.aolmail.net> References: <167ddea04a5-227e-283b@webjas-vac011.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <2af90dd1-dff2-b860-0c83-71af27d719e4@sydex.com> On 12/23/18 5:52 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > wanted any and all XSCRIBE closed caption related and steno typer key board related ... docs... parts.. units building up an working analog CC demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area. will consider othe brand gear to if even just for static display too.... > Interested in ad materials photos, war stories. etc etc > thanks. Ed Sharpe My experience with CC conversion for Fox Home Video was that the WGBH system was used for closed-captioning on the early stuff. IIRC, the systems used were Zilog MCZ with custom software. (132 byte hard-sectored floppies). I also did some 5.25" stuff from a later time but I don't recall the details, just that it was different--but generally followed the FCC standard. --Chuck From norbert_kehrer at yahoo.de Mon Dec 24 02:42:37 2018 From: norbert_kehrer at yahoo.de (Norbert Kehrer) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 09:42:37 +0100 Subject: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> References: <11870e68-da50-7f75-1032-966cb58c1301@yahoo.de> Message-ID: <47fcf114-cc9c-959e-3496-5ebbc4361c91@yahoo.de> I now also added graphics support to flashx20. The commands to draw dots and lines available in Epson BASIC can now be used to create high-resolution pictures in different resolutions and up to 8 colors on the screen of the Windows PC connected to the HX-20. The graphics screen is shown in a separate window, so that the text display still remains visible in the console. The new version can be downloaded as a zip file containing the "flashx20" program for Windows computers, some BASIC examples and graphics demos, and the user manual as a pdf file. You can find some screenshots and the download at http://members.aon.at/nkehrer/ Merry Christmas! Norbert From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 09:22:12 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 10:22:12 -0500 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 6:24 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > I have another paper tape...this time, it's 7-channel. > > I dumped it and found that it has very, very little data on it. > > Tape image here: > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kCiSiNuPvAPzBG0XCqBJiBoPhjmyvU21 > > Here's some of the first of the tape. > > 0000000 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > * > 0000380 a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > 0000390 80 80 a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > 00003a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > * > 00003d0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 a0 80 80 80 80 80 > 00003e0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > * > 0000430 80 80 80 80 88 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > 0000440 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > * > 0000ca0 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > 0000cb0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > * > 00010d0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 > 00010e0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > * > 0001100 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > 0001110 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > 0001120 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > 0001130 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > 0001140 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 > 0001150 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > 0001160 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 > 0001170 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > > The tape is dated 22 October 1958. > > Any ideas what this could have been used for? > > The 8th channel is set since I read this on an 8-channel reader. > > Thanks, > > Kyle > nuthin' ... but it's pre-ascii and pre motorola format. Flexowriter stuff? From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 09:24:02 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 10:24:02 -0500 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 10:22 AM Bill Degnan wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 6:24 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I have another paper tape...this time, it's 7-channel. >> >> I dumped it and found that it has very, very little data on it. >> >> Tape image here: >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kCiSiNuPvAPzBG0XCqBJiBoPhjmyvU21 >> >> Here's some of the first of the tape. >> >> 0000000 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> * >> 0000380 a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> 0000390 80 80 a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> 00003a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> * >> 00003d0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 a0 80 80 80 80 80 >> 00003e0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> * >> 0000430 80 80 80 80 88 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> 0000440 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> * >> 0000ca0 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> 0000cb0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> * >> 00010d0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 >> 00010e0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> * >> 0001100 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> 0001110 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> 0001120 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> 0001130 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> 0001140 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> 0001150 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> 0001160 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 >> 0001170 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 >> >> The tape is dated 22 October 1958. >> >> Any ideas what this could have been used for? >> >> The 8th channel is set since I read this on an 8-channel reader. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kyle >> > > nuthin' ... but it's pre-ascii and pre motorola format. Flexowriter > stuff? > replying to myself, oops I see Flexowriter was already determined. I have notes on how to read / transpose how to read Flexowriter into ascii somewhere, but this is pretty much empty data just by looking at it, I'd need to see more that just 80 80 80 80 b From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Dec 24 09:46:44 2018 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 10:46:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <701838832.237818.1545666404025@email.ionos.com> > On December 24, 2018 at 10:24 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 10:22 AM Bill Degnan wrote: > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 6:24 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> I have another paper tape...this time, it's 7-channel. > >> > >> I dumped it and found that it has very, very little data on it. > >> > >> Tape image here: > >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kCiSiNuPvAPzBG0XCqBJiBoPhjmyvU21 > >> > >> Here's some of the first of the tape. > >> > >> 0000000 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> * > >> 0000380 a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> 0000390 80 80 a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> 00003a0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> * > >> 00003d0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 a0 80 80 80 80 80 > >> 00003e0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> * > >> 0000430 80 80 80 80 88 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> 0000440 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> * > >> 0000ca0 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> 0000cb0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> * > >> 00010d0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 > >> 00010e0 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> * > >> 0001100 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> 0001110 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> 0001120 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> 0001130 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> 0001140 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> 0001150 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> 0001160 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 80 80 > >> 0001170 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 80 > >> > >> The tape is dated 22 October 1958. > >> > >> Any ideas what this could have been used for? > >> > >> The 8th channel is set since I read this on an 8-channel reader. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Kyle > >> > > > > nuthin' ... but it's pre-ascii and pre motorola format. Flexowriter > > stuff? > > > > replying to myself, oops I see Flexowriter was already determined. I have > notes on how to read / transpose how to read Flexowriter into ascii > somewhere, but this is pretty much empty data just by looking at it, I'd > need to see more that just 80 80 80 80 > b Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance, but if these are 7 track tapes, shouldn't the max value be 7f? Am I missing something? Will From pat at vax11.net Mon Dec 24 11:06:39 2018 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 11:06:39 -0600 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: <701838832.237818.1545666404025@email.ionos.com> References: <701838832.237818.1545666404025@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 09:46 Will Cooke via cctalk > Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance, but if these are 7 track tapes, > shouldn't the max value be 7f? Am I missing something? > > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 6:24 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> The 8th channel is set since I read this on an 8-channel reader. From info at cvmakerspace.ca Mon Dec 24 13:33:44 2018 From: info at cvmakerspace.ca (Columbia Valley Maker Space) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:33:44 -0700 Subject: Newbie Punch Tape Questions Message-ID: Ok - not so much of a newbie - fed punch tape into a reader for a PDP8 when I attended tech school back when the earth was cooling .... I have my hands on a PDP8a and a Remex reader. They both seem to function OK with basic tests. I would like to try to read a Mylar punch tape to see if there is anything interesting on it - as well as a couple of paper tapes. My end run would be to show something useful running on the PDP8a - and loaded with the punch tape. The Mylar reel would have been the programming for a CNC machine. I suspect the first part of the reel may be some boot loader or init routine. So, my thought is this - connect the Remex unit to a Pi or Arduino to capture the data and have a look at it or, load the tape directly into the PDP8 and see what happens? Then, examine the PDP8 memory locations. So, the issue is that I have not researched the proper way to get the tape and PDP8 initialized and reading into the PDP8. I am not 100% sure the Remex unit is working, other than it spins the reels. Any suggestions?? Love the forum by the way - I wish I had a machine that would slow the clock on the wall down to give me more time to play. I guess they call that retirement ..... Cheers, Brian -- Brian McIntosh Columbia Valley Maker Space Communications Guy info at cvmakerspace.ca 250 270 0689 From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 24 14:15:16 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 15:15:16 -0500 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <167e1db79a2-7fd6-2d30@webjas-vaa020.srv.aolmail.net> as is ERMA! ? eD# In a message dated 12/23/2018 5:59:30 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 4:52 PM Al Kossow via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 12/23/18 4:13 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > > USA. It is indeed 7 tracks wide. I didn't realize that until I tried > > dumping the tape today. First time I've come across 7-channel tape > before. > > > > 7-channel punches were available on the Flexowriter. > MIT Whirlwind tapes are all 7-channel > > > As are the tapes on the CDC 160 - Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 24 15:16:07 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 13:16:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's probably encrypted SETI data. You need to analyze the subtle hidden patterns of the differences between the 80h's THEN, you insert that message a few characters at a time between words in Ed's posts. He has cleverly been steganographically relaying the hidden message for a while. From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 15:32:26 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 15:32:26 -0600 Subject: Another weird paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 15:16 Fred Cisin via cctalk THEN, you insert that message a few characters at a time between words in > Ed's posts. He has cleverly been steganographically relaying the hidden > message for a while. > Maybe the real data has to be read between the holes...! Here's the tape reader that I found this reel in. Unfortunately I was not able to rescue the reader... https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8Ow1Wo1rBQUVUk1alRqVGdRZHM/view?usp=drivesdk Thanks, Kyle > From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Dec 25 07:19:06 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 14:19:06 +0100 Subject: Merry Christmas Message-ID: <20181225131906.GA17390@tau1.ceti.pl> Folks, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, thanks for all interesting reading matter and let there be plenty of interesting stuff to read about in a future, too. :-) -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From tmanos at concursive.com Tue Dec 25 07:26:52 2018 From: tmanos at concursive.com (Tom Manos) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 08:26:52 -0500 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <20181225131906.GA17390@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20181225131906.GA17390@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: ++Tomasz Merry Christmas, all. May there be classic computing under your tree and in your life every day. My exercise this month is to refurbish a Mac Quadra 800 and install A/UX 3.1 Tom ------ On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 8:19 AM Tomasz Rola via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Folks, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, thanks for all interesting > reading matter and let there be plenty of interesting stuff to read > about in a future, too. > > :-) > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** > From jfehlinger at comcast.net Mon Dec 24 08:36:40 2018 From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 09:36:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Speaking of paper tape... Message-ID: <379779987.417288.1545662200944@connect.xfinity.com> Does anybody here recognize the manufacturer of this gear, presumably some kind of punched paper tape equipment? Second to the last image at: http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=15284&highlight=movies&page=10 I recently had the chance to play with a Blu-Ray transfer of the old gothic sci-fi TV show _The Outer Limits_ (the original 1963-64 series), and some of the 50s magnetic tape equipment used as recurring props can be identified -- e.g., an Ampex FR200 data recorder, Magnecord and Roberts audio tape recorders, and even a pair of old Univac Uniservo I tape drives in one episode. But that twin paper-tape device (if that's what it is), which occurs in the background of a number of first-season episodes, remains a mystery. The lower reels (if there are any) seem to be out of sight in the lower part of the cabinet in all shots of the device, and there seems to be a continuous loop of paper tape threaded around the tape guides and back up to the upper reel (which is actually spinning in at least one episode). Anybody know what this might be? From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Dec 25 12:52:08 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 10:52:08 -0800 Subject: Newbie Punch Tape Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422AE0B8-9063-491C-B741-A6A8D93F731B@nf6x.net> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 11:33 AM, Columbia Valley Maker Space via cctalk wrote: > > The Mylar reel would have been the programming for a CNC machine. I > suspect the first part of the reel may be some boot loader or init > routine. I could definitely be mistaken, but my first guess would be that a tape with CNC machine programming would contain G code, and look like cryptic ASCII text. I'm interested in hearing what you find. -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net/ From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Dec 25 13:14:35 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 12:14:35 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?How_to_convert_CGA_video_to_HDMI=e2=80=a6?= Message-ID: If you're into retro computing at all, and want to see how to hook old computers up to new HDMI monitors, then check out @craig1black's new video on doing exactly that. Link - How to convert CGA video to HDMI for around $65 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpfrelhokKQ I find this quite impressive and will likely have to look into this further. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Dec 25 18:50:23 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 17:50:23 -0700 Subject: NFS & Kerberos woes... Message-ID: <02aeaccf-9c18-88a6-1cab-3fc43b14de20@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Do any fellow cctalk / cctech subscribers have any experience with NFS, particularly in combination with Kerberos authentication? I'm messing with something that is making me think that Kerberos authentication (sec=krb5{,i,p}) usurps no_root_squash. Meaning that root can't access files owned by other users with go-rwx. Almost as if no_root_squash wasn't configured on the export. Does anyone have a spare bone that they would be willing to throw my way? -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 21:31:27 2018 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 22:31:27 -0500 Subject: Merry Christmas (Tom Manos) Message-ID: I hope everyone is having a wonderful Christmas and may the New Year bring all your computing wishes true. Happy computing all! From jim.manley at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 00:18:48 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 23:18:48 -0700 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: References: <20181225131906.GA17390@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: My early Christmas present was finding all of the wonderful and amazing people already gathered here and on other fora concerning classic computing, especially S-100 systems that I missed the development of while at a service academy, stationed overseas, and forward-deployed aboard ships. Donations of, and discounts on, systems, boards, components, parts, software, etc., for my 7th - 12th grade Computing and Science classroom in very rural Montana have been additional much-appreciated gifts. Stockings stuffed with help from the friendly folks here has been the icing on the cake. Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night, in the broadest sense Office and was the spirit of all of the Winter holidays. Jim On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 06:27 Tom Manos via cctalk wrote: > ++Tomasz > > Merry Christmas, all. > > May there be classic computing under your tree and in your life every day. > > My exercise this month is to refurbish a Mac Quadra 800 and install A/UX > 3.1 > > Tom > ------ > > On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 8:19 AM Tomasz Rola via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Folks, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, thanks for all interesting > > reading matter and let there be plenty of interesting stuff to read > > about in a future, too. > > > > :-) > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Tomasz Rola > > > > -- > > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > > ** ** > > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** > > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 26 12:56:39 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 11:56:39 -0700 Subject: NFS & Kerberos woes... In-Reply-To: <93FBDC5D-4BF8-4C69-B0D8-7A7541CB87EB@ruffspot.net> References: <93FBDC5D-4BF8-4C69-B0D8-7A7541CB87EB@ruffspot.net> Message-ID: On 12/26/18 11:41 AM, Craig Ruff wrote: > I used Kerberos with NFS successfully at my last job. Any process/user > id accessing NFS mounts using Kerberos authentication must have a valid > Kerberos ticket, root included. Okay. Thank you for confirming what I suspected but was still doubting. I believe that root should have access as the system's keytab has host/$FQDN and nfs/$FQDN principals. Root also has a ticket granting ticket, krbtgt/$REALM. At least I think that means that root has vlaid Kerberos tickets. > The no_root_squash option is no longer relevant when Kerberos > authentication is used, as you surmise. ACK > You can address this by getting a machine ticket that root can use. That's my current working understanding. But, apparently I'm not getting something correct. :-( Thank you for the reply Craig. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 15:29:36 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 22:29:36 +0100 Subject: OCR old software listing. Message-ID: Finally I got hold of the sources for the PDP-11 SPACE WAR that was submitted to DECUS by Bill Seiler. The format is scans of the PAL-11S listing output. It is easy to crop the image to only contain actual source. Then running OCR on it. Tried a few online versions and tesseract. The problem is that the paper that the listing is printed on has lines. Very black lines. It makes the OCR go completely crazy. Source lines without black lines OCR ok. The others do not. The files need massive amount of manual intervention. Does anyone have an idea how to process files like this? A good way to remove the black lines? There are only 19 source files with three or four pages each so I don't think it makes sense to try to train tesseract to do it (training tesseract seems to be a huge undertaking). https://i.imgur.com/dvY973s.png /Mattis From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Dec 26 16:00:29 2018 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 17:00:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: OCR old software listing. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1650916933.355909.1545861629057@email.ionos.com> > On December 26, 2018 at 4:29 PM Mattis Lind via cctech wrote: > > > Finally I got hold of the sources for the PDP-11 SPACE WAR that was > submitted to DECUS by Bill Seiler. > > The format is scans of the PAL-11S listing output. It is easy to crop the > image to only contain actual source. Then running OCR on it. Tried a few > online versions and tesseract. > > The problem is that the paper that the listing is printed on has lines. > Very black lines. It makes the OCR go completely crazy. Source lines > without black lines OCR ok. The others do not. The files need massive > amount of manual intervention. > > Does anyone have an idea how to process files like this? > > A good way to remove the black lines? > > There are only 19 source files with three or four pages each so I don't > think it makes sense to try to train tesseract to do it (training tesseract > seems to be a huge undertaking). > > https://i.imgur.com/dvY973s.png > > /Mattis One thing you might try is to pull the scan images into matlab/gnu octave and do a 2d FFT, remove the frequency band of the lines, inverse fft, and save. I've had good luck removing regular patterns of noise from images that way. Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise." -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 26 16:15:17 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 17:15:17 -0500 Subject: OCR old software listing. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2018-12-26 4:29 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Finally I got hold of the sources for the PDP-11 SPACE WAR that was > submitted to DECUS by Bill Seiler. > > The format is scans of the PAL-11S listing output. It is easy to crop the > image to only contain actual source. Then running OCR on it. Tried a few > online versions and tesseract. > > The problem is that the paper that the listing is printed on has lines. > Very black lines. It makes the OCR go completely crazy. Source lines > without black lines OCR ok. The others do not. The files need massive > amount of manual intervention. > > Does anyone have an idea how to process files like this? > > A good way to remove the black lines? > Hi Mattis I have some ideas. Can you give me access to the original scans? --Toby > There are only 19 source files with three or four pages each so I don't > think it makes sense to try to train tesseract to do it (training tesseract > seems to be a huge undertaking). > > https://i.imgur.com/dvY973s.png > > /Mattis > From steven at malikoff.com Wed Dec 26 16:55:26 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 08:55:26 +1000 Subject: OCR old software listing. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mattis said > Finally I got hold of the sources for the PDP-11 SPACE WAR that was > submitted to DECUS by Bill Seiler. > > The format is scans of the PAL-11S listing output. It is easy to crop the > image to only contain actual source. Then running OCR on it. Tried a few > online versions and tesseract. > > The problem is that the paper that the listing is printed on has lines. > Very black lines. It makes the OCR go completely crazy. Source lines > without black lines OCR ok. The others do not. The files need massive > amount of manual intervention. > > Does anyone have an idea how to process files like this? > > A good way to remove the black lines? > > There are only 19 source files with three or four pages each so I don't > think it makes sense to try to train tesseract to do it (training tesseract > seems to be a huge undertaking). > > https://i.imgur.com/dvY973s.png > > /Mattis Scan them all as-is, put them up and 'crowd source' this list to divvy up a bunch of pages per person who could then use their favourite graphics program to paint out the lines and send you back the cleaned-up images? I could do a few. Steve. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 26 17:17:31 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 15:17:31 -0800 Subject: OCR old software listing. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c15af2e-232f-4191-948b-f05aa5694e5d@bitsavers.org> On 12/26/18 2:55 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Scan them all as-is, put them up and 'crowd source' this list And TYPE the programs in again From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 26 18:15:11 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 16:15:11 -0800 Subject: OCR old software listing. In-Reply-To: <3c15af2e-232f-4191-948b-f05aa5694e5d@bitsavers.org> References: <3c15af2e-232f-4191-948b-f05aa5694e5d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5e8e3c14-6cf8-b629-594d-3ca157aed84b@sydex.com> On 12/26/18 3:17 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/26/18 2:55 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > >> Scan them all as-is, put them up and 'crowd source' this list > > And TYPE the programs in again I've found that it's often the best course of action and consumes the least time overall. You also have a better chance of understanding the code. --Chuck From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 18:37:59 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 18:37:59 -0600 Subject: OCR old software listing. In-Reply-To: <5e8e3c14-6cf8-b629-594d-3ca157aed84b@sydex.com> References: <3c15af2e-232f-4191-948b-f05aa5694e5d@bitsavers.org> <5e8e3c14-6cf8-b629-594d-3ca157aed84b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:15 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/26/18 3:17 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > And TYPE the programs in again > > I've found that it's often the best course of action and consumes the > least time overall. You also have a better chance of understanding the > code. > I'm doing this right now for DECUS 8-152. Yes, it certainly helps you understand what the code is actually doing. Kyle From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 20:19:12 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 19:19:12 -0700 Subject: OCR old software listing. In-Reply-To: <5e8e3c14-6cf8-b629-594d-3ca157aed84b@sydex.com> References: <3c15af2e-232f-4191-948b-f05aa5694e5d@bitsavers.org> <5e8e3c14-6cf8-b629-594d-3ca157aed84b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 17:15 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/26/18 3:17 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/26/18 2:55 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > >> Scan them all as-is, put them up and 'crowd source' this list > > And TYPE the programs in again > > I've found that it's often the best course of action and consumes the > least time overall. You also have a better chance of understanding the > code. > I typed in 710 pages of listing of the main processor code of HP 2000C'/2000F Time-Shared BASIC. I typed in the full listing format, including the line numbers, addresses, and object code. I used a simple awk script to strip it back down to source form. I wrote an HP 21xx cross-assembler in Perl, assembled the sources, and diffed the generated assembly listing against the typed-in listing, in order to find the inevitable errors. I believe the results contain no errors introduced by me other than typos in the comments. This did take a fair bit of spare time. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Dec 26 21:30:09 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 21:30:09 -0600 Subject: OCR old software listing. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C244741.6090608@pico-systems.com> On 12/26/2018 03:29 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > A good way to remove the black lines? > > > > https://i.imgur.com/dvY973s.png > > Oh, boy! The printer was not properly aligned, so the lines actually overlay the dot-matrix printed text! This is going to make OCR very difficult! I don't think you can just get rid of the lines, that will drop dots from the characters, too. A bad situation. Jon From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Dec 27 00:22:26 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 23:22:26 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IE5GUyAmIEtlcmJlcm9zIHdvZXMuLi4g4oCUIFNPTFZFRA==?= In-Reply-To: <02aeaccf-9c18-88a6-1cab-3fc43b14de20@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <02aeaccf-9c18-88a6-1cab-3fc43b14de20@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <5791ba3e-d1cb-5893-bc8e-94c722b78587@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/25/18 5:50 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Do any fellow cctalk / cctech subscribers have any experience with NFS, > particularly in combination with Kerberos authentication? After much toil and tribulation, I've managed to get things working. > I'm messing with something that is making me think that Kerberos > authentication (sec=krb5{,i,p}) usurps no_root_squash. I've found that no_root_squash is still equally as applicable in Kerberized NFS as it is in non-Kerberized NFS. no_root_squash actually still does the same thing in Kerberized NFS. I figured out (by grinding through possible options) that I needed to do the following: Add a new principal, root/host.sub.domain.tld, and add it to host's (system wide) keytab file. I also needed to configure and enable translations in the /etc/idmapd.conf file /on/ /the/ /NFS/ /server/. --8<-- [Static] root/host.sub.domain.tld = root [Translation] GSS-Methods = static,nsswitch -->8-- Hopefully this will help someone trying to do something similar in the future. Now, services running as root (sshd) are able to read files (authorized_keys) that root doesn?t have permission to read (owned by user and 0600) on an NFS mount (/home) that is using Kerberos authentication. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Thu Dec 27 04:30:17 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 03:30:17 -0700 Subject: HIPPI devices Message-ID: Anyone have any HIPPI stuff, preferably for sale? The machine I have uses the big parallel cables 100-pin but I guess there is a converter to serial fiber. Regards, Kevin From ethan at 757.org Thu Dec 27 09:26:12 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 10:26:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: HIPPI devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Anyone have any HIPPI stuff, preferably for sale? The machine I have > uses the big parallel cables 100-pin but I guess there is a converter > to serial fiber. > Regards, > Kevin I tossed a ton of 100 pin hippi network cables a good while ago. They came with my Cray systems. Never thought I would see people talking about HIPPI again :-) -- : Ethan O'Toole From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Dec 27 09:29:37 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 10:29:37 -0500 Subject: OCR old software listing. In-Reply-To: <5C244741.6090608@pico-systems.com> References: <5C244741.6090608@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:30 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/26/2018 03:29 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> >> A good way to remove the black lines? >> >> >> >> https://i.imgur.com/dvY973s.png >> >> > Oh, boy! The printer was not properly aligned, so the lines actually overlay the dot-matrix printed text! This is going to make OCR very difficult! I don't think you can just get rid of the lines, that will drop dots from the characters, too. A bad situation. At some point the simplest answer is to type it all in again. I've been doing work on old software using old listings. Some are nice and clean and OCR just fine. Some are so muddy that they are hard to read for humans, and utterly hopeless for OCR. It's no fun to type in 300 pages of assembly code, but sometimes that's the only way. paul From w2hx at w2hx.com Thu Dec 27 11:12:03 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 17:12:03 +0000 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 Message-ID: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> Hi friends, I've been building up a nice little PDP-11/23+ with cabinets, RL02's etc. To really round things off, I'm looking for a open reel-to-reel style 9-track tape drive to add to the system (don't ask why, punishment must be somewhere in my nature). Not interested in the autoloading/drawer type drives. There are some fujitsu drives on ebay at the moment, but shipping from CA to NY is both costly and risky. Does anyone have a (preferably working) 9-track drive that can be used with a PDP-11 (like a pertec interface) for sale? Willing to drive anywhere from Philly to Boston for one. Hopefully one in good shape. Thanks 73 Eugene W2HX From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 11:46:28 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 09:46:28 -0800 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 9:17 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > I've been building up a nice little PDP-11/23+ with cabinets, RL02's etc. To really round things off, I'm looking for a open reel-to-reel style 9-track tape drive to add to the system (don't ask why, punishment must be somewhere in my nature). Not interested in the autoloading/drawer type drives. > > There are some fujitsu drives on ebay at the moment, but shipping from CA to NY is both costly and risky. > > Does anyone have a (preferably working) 9-track drive that can be used with a PDP-11 (like a pertec interface) for sale? Willing to drive anywhere from Philly to Boston for one. > If you can find a Fujitsu M2444AC within driving distance that is a good option. The cache buffer in the drive can prevent a lot of start/stop action with a slower host. I have used one to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 on PDP-11 systems with Pertec controller boards. But at somewhere around 200 pounds they are not something you want to ship. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 27 12:02:33 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 10:02:33 -0800 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <58ecd477-e501-4e8d-f878-4b95168736fa@sydex.com> On 12/27/18 9:46 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 9:17 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> >> I've been building up a nice little PDP-11/23+ with cabinets, RL02's etc. To really round things off, I'm looking for a open reel-to-reel style 9-track tape drive to add to the system (don't ask why, punishment must be somewhere in my nature). Not interested in the autoloading/drawer type drives. >> >> There are some fujitsu drives on ebay at the moment, but shipping from CA to NY is both costly and risky. >> >> Does anyone have a (preferably working) 9-track drive that can be used with a PDP-11 (like a pertec interface) for sale? Willing to drive anywhere from Philly to Boston for one. >> > > If you can find a Fujitsu M2444AC within driving distance that is a > good option. The cache buffer in the drive can prevent a lot of > start/stop action with a slower host. I have used one to install > 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 on PDP-11 systems with Pertec controller > boards. But at somewhere around 200 pounds they are not something you > want to ship. If you;re only interested in 1600 PE and 6250 GCR, the Fuji drive is a great choice--well-constructed and easy to operate. Yes, it is pretty heavy, but in the universe of open-reel tape drives, it's a featherweight. Not sure about 200 lbs, though. I managed to get mine off a pickup truck bed onto a dolly, up a short flight of stairs and into a 6' rack single-handedly. Maybe I was just lucky or stupid. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 12:32:12 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 10:32:12 -0800 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <58ecd477-e501-4e8d-f878-4b95168736fa@sydex.com> References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <58ecd477-e501-4e8d-f878-4b95168736fa@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 10:02 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > If you;re only interested in 1600 PE and 6250 GCR, the Fuji drive is a > great choice--well-constructed and easy to operate. Yes, it is pretty > heavy, but in the universe of open-reel tape drives, it's a > featherweight. Not sure about 200 lbs, though. I managed to get mine > off a pickup truck bed onto a dolly, up a short flight of stairs and > into a 6' rack single-handedly. > I have moved Fujitsu M2444AC drives in and out of racks and up and down stairs a couple of times by myself and it has always been a bit of a challenge without some sort of lift. Wasn't bad getting one in the van with two people. Table 1.2 Physical Specifications of this manual says 90 kg / 198 pounds for a bare M2444AC outside of a rack: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/tape/B03P-5325-0100A_02B_M244X_Series_Streaming_Tape_Drive_CE_Manual_May89.pdf If you want something that can easily be shipped and moved around one option is a Qualstar 1052. I wasn't impressed with the quality and performance of those. I gave away the ones I had. They do 1600 (and 3200), but not 6250. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 27 12:36:20 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 10:36:20 -0800 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <58ecd477-e501-4e8d-f878-4b95168736fa@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5ac347a8-63d6-a9c7-0259-34dcacff3ad8@bitsavers.org> On 12/27/18 10:32 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Table 1.2 Physical Specifications of this manual says 90 kg / 198 > pounds for a bare M2444AC outside of a rack: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/tape/B03P-5325-0100A_02B_M244X_Series_Streaming_Tape_Drive_CE_Manual_May89.pdf > since we're talking about 2444's, does anyone have the schematics for one? the service manual I scanned didn't have them and someone is desperately trying to find them From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 27 12:53:28 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 10:53:28 -0800 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <58ecd477-e501-4e8d-f878-4b95168736fa@sydex.com> Message-ID: <962ad76b-9270-8ecf-e2ac-5171d7728dc1@sydex.com> On 12/27/18 10:32 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > If you want something that can easily be shipped and moved around one > option is a Qualstar 1052. I wasn't impressed with the quality and > performance of those. I gave away the ones I had. They do 1600 (and > 3200), but not 6250. The 1260 (or later) will do 6250, but I can't recommend it--it isn't terribly good at reading tapes that the Fuji does fine on. I suspect a couple of reasons for this--the transport mechanism itself and the very low speed at 6250 (less induced EMF in the head). If that's not important, it is pretty lightweight and comes in a SCSI version as well. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 27 13:18:04 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 11:18:04 -0800 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <962ad76b-9270-8ecf-e2ac-5171d7728dc1@sydex.com> References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <58ecd477-e501-4e8d-f878-4b95168736fa@sydex.com> <962ad76b-9270-8ecf-e2ac-5171d7728dc1@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/27/18 10:53 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The 1260 (or later) will do 6250, but I can't recommend it--it isn't > terribly good at reading tapes that the Fuji does fine on. I suspect a > couple of reasons for this--the transport mechanism itself and the very > low speed at 6250 (less induced EMF in the head). > that's what we found as well trying to use it on GCR. not enough signal output From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 13:23:39 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 13:23:39 -0600 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 11:17 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have a (preferably working) 9-track drive that can be used with a PDP-11 (like a pertec interface) for sale? Willing to drive anywhere from Philly to Boston for one. A bit out of your range, but if we can figure out transport, I have an AT&T-badged HP 9-track, with Pertec interface, that I've been trying to unload for years (they're heavy!) It's yours if we can move it. It's clean and powers up and gets through self-test. I have not had a compatible machine to actually read a tape on. I'm in 60070, near Chicago. -j From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 13:30:55 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 13:30:55 -0600 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 13:23 Jason T via cctalk On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 11:17 AM W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > Does anyone have a (preferably working) 9-track drive that can be used > with a PDP-11 (like a pertec interface) for sale? Willing to drive anywhere > from Philly to Boston for one. > > A bit out of your range, but if we can figure out transport, I have an > AT&T-badged HP 9-track, with Pertec interface, that I've been trying > to unload for years (they're heavy!) It's yours if we can move it. > It's clean and powers up and gets through self-test. I have not had a > compatible machine to actually read a tape on. > > I'm in 60070, near Chicago. > Hi Jason! If this goes unclaimed, I'd be happy to give it a home. I've been trying to find a time to get a few things from Jack Rubin too; not sure when that will be yet. Probably after VCF SE. I have a bunch of tapes from some Harris minicomputer that I'd like to digitize at some point. I finally got around to digitizing the paper tapes. Thanks! Kyle > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Dec 27 14:46:27 2018 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 09:46:27 +1300 Subject: More recovered Exidy Sorcerer software Message-ID: Hi, Merry Xmas and Happy New Year (or Happy Holidays if that is your flavour), Just to note to those interested in the Exidy Sorcerer. I've added 18 more programs to the Sorcerer archive at https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-01-23-software-for-real-sorcerers.htm . To see what they are, check out the updates section at the bottom of the page. Most of the originals were provided by Al Kossow. Paul van der Spek provided Military Encounter, Munch! and Sorcerer Invaders (thanks guys!) Enjoy Tez From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 27 15:21:23 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 13:21:23 -0800 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <87467a4a-3c7e-63bb-4af0-a6a9c01c35fd@bitsavers.org> On 12/27/18 11:30 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > I have a bunch of tapes from some Harris minicomputer that I'd like to > digitize at some point. I finally got around to digitizing the paper tapes. Slash 6 or one of the other 24-bit machines they made? any of the tapes for the OS (Vulcan?) I recovered some tapes that were salvaged from the material indirectly from Aachen guess I should put the up on bitsavers There was a significant amt of documentation from the machine which apparently ran at the Free University of Berlin. Guess I should finish that as well. There was most of a listing of the OS From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Thu Dec 27 15:22:39 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 14:22:39 -0700 Subject: SCSI for HP 9000/380 Message-ID: I have one of these, but the system has HP-IB disk and tape. I'd like to use a SCSI tape to install on it. On the CPU card, there is what looks like a 50-pin connector. Does that need active electronics to work like the second HP-IB bulkhead that currently occupies the slot? Also does anyone have digital manuals for this particular model? Regards, Kevin From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 27 15:35:04 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 13:35:04 -0800 Subject: SCSI for HP 9000/380 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <772ef743-02cf-47f4-1d5e-136b11560c43@bitsavers.org> On 12/27/18 1:22 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > I'd like > to use a SCSI tape to install on it. Series-300 doesn't support booting from SCSI/QIC tape It does support SCSI CD-ROM Docs are on bitsavers or the HP Museum sites From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 27 15:37:32 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 13:37:32 -0800 Subject: SCSI for HP 9000/380 In-Reply-To: <772ef743-02cf-47f4-1d5e-136b11560c43@bitsavers.org> References: <772ef743-02cf-47f4-1d5e-136b11560c43@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <538e199b-5129-59fb-e398-2fbaab590f90@bitsavers.org> On 12/27/18 1:35 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/27/18 1:22 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: >> I'd like >> to use a SCSI tape to install on it. Also, HP 16 and 32 track tapes are NOT compatible at all with QIC. They have no EOT/BOT holes. If you put an HP tape into a QIC tape drive it will rewind all of the way to the other end of the tape and spool off the end From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Thu Dec 27 16:16:22 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 15:16:22 -0700 Subject: SCSI for HP 9000/380 In-Reply-To: <772ef743-02cf-47f4-1d5e-136b11560c43@bitsavers.org> References: <772ef743-02cf-47f4-1d5e-136b11560c43@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I don?t see a manual for the 380 on either On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 2:34 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/27/18 1:22 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > > I'd like > > to use a SCSI tape to install on it. > > Series-300 doesn't support booting from SCSI/QIC tape > > It does support SCSI CD-ROM > > Docs are on bitsavers or the HP Museum sites > > > > From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Thu Dec 27 16:33:44 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 15:33:44 -0700 Subject: SCSI for HP 9000/380 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It looks like the on board SCSI is straight through wikimedia has images of the 380 CPU board plumbed to the bulkhead with just a cable/connector On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 2:22 PM Kevin Bowling wrote: > I have one of these, but the system has HP-IB disk and tape. I'd like > to use a SCSI tape to install on it. On the CPU card, there is what > looks like a 50-pin connector. Does that need active electronics to > work like the second HP-IB bulkhead that currently occupies the slot? > > Also does anyone have digital manuals for this particular model? > > Regards, > Kevin > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 18:38:46 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 20:38:46 -0400 Subject: SCSI for HP 9000/380 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <220ae3f0-49a3-3bfc-889d-57886b6a3add@gmail.com> The SCSI connector on the bulhead of the 380 CPU card is a standard 50 pin SCSI-1 single ended SCSI connector.? Like most SCSI initiators the bus is terminated on the system board.? The built in interface is equivalent to the 98568A DIO SCSI interface card.? I have never tried to boot from a tape drive, but I do know that booting from CDROM and disk does work. Paul. On 2018-12-27 5:22 p.m., Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > I have one of these, but the system has HP-IB disk and tape. I'd like > to use a SCSI tape to install on it. On the CPU card, there is what > looks like a 50-pin connector. Does that need active electronics to > work like the second HP-IB bulkhead that currently occupies the slot? > > Also does anyone have digital manuals for this particular model? > > Regards, > Kevin From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 23:40:57 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 23:40:57 -0600 Subject: straight 8 tape on ebay Message-ID: 2 trays of straight 8 tapes have popped up on ebay i see if anyones looking for this sorta stuff lhttps:// www.ebay.ca/itm/DEC-PDP-8-assorted-Paper-Tape/332977526273?hash=item4d8701d601:g:LVEAAOSwsftcIrEZ:rk:1:pf:0 From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 01:03:04 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2018 23:03:04 -0800 Subject: New batch of items from the Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders Message-ID: Hello Folks! Here is another batch of goodies from the Warehouse: Micropolis MicroDisk Maintenance Manual Catalog of Public Domain Software for CP/M Book 1 & 2 Wabash 8" Floppy Disk 10-pack (shrinkwrapped) Sony MD-2D 5.25" Floppy Diskette 10-pack (shrinkwrapped) Kraft 3-button Mouse PDP-11 BASIC-PLUS Language Manual RL01/RL02 User Guide & Technical Manual RL01/RL02 User Guide RLV12 Disk Controller Configuration Sheet RX02 Floppy Disk System User's Guide DEC Microcomputer Products Group u[micro]note Reprints PDP-11 Diagnostic Engineering Source Code Prints DEC RoamAbout PCMCIA Network Adaptor External 5.25" Drive VisiCalc Tektronix 119-1592-01 Terminal Keyboard Bondwell B310SX laptop TI Home Computer Applications Software Bundle (18 boxed titles) Convergent Technologies WP-100 Microprinter Convergent Technologies WC-100 Comm Port Convergent Technologies Workslate Leader's Guide Convergent Technologies Workslate Marketing Collateral Convergent Technologies Accessory Bundle Convergent Technologies Thermal Paper Roll Accton EN2212-1 Ethernet PCMCIA Card New Media Corp. PCMCIA Game Port Joystick Adapter Rolodex REX Docking Station Sharp CE-IR2 Wireless Interface Apricorn external hard disk pack ASP SX100 SNAP Parallel Transmitter LeeMah Data Security Corp. InfoKey HP Jornada Docking Station HP F1869-60001 Pocket Camera for HP Jornada Pocket PC HP C4103A FIR 4Mbps IrDA module Sony CDW-900E Compact Disc Recording Unit Sony WebTV INT-W200 Internet Terminal Sony SM0-E301F 128MB Magneto Optical Disk Drive SGI Iris Indigo XS Radio Shack TRS-80 Printer Interface Cable Tandy Printer Interface Selector 2 CTK Adam Acoustically Coupled Modem Microsoft Mouse & Microsoft Paintbrush (boxed) IDT Series 1050/1750 Operations and Maintenance Instructions IDT Series 1050/1750 TDF 4050 Tape Formatter Operations Manual Data Broadcasting Corp. Signal Cable Receiver Plus Olympus Deltis 230MB Magneto Optical Disk Subsystem Compaq Contura Aero 4/25 I've still got a sale going until the end of 2018: Take 10% off anything with a listing date prior to 2018 (check the "Date Added" column in the warehouse item listings--anything listed in 2016-2017 is 10% off!) If you're a previous buyer (I know who you are) the 10% off applies to any listed item! For you DEC enthusiasts, I'd like to clear out the documentation, so from now until the end of the year I'm giving 10% off any DEC documentation (this would be in [B]addition[/B] to the 10% off special for you previous buyers!) The main index for newly listed items is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1#gid=949372371&range=A1 As always, please contact me directly by e-mail via to make an order or an offer. Happy Holidays! Sellam From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 28 11:19:12 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 09:19:12 -0800 Subject: straight 8 tape on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In particular, these are for a Teradyne IC tester "mjeffs" has been selling trays of tapes for a while, I bought this one https://www.ebay.com/itm/283247926027 because it has the source for Brooklyn Poly BASIC, something Richie Lary worked on On 12/27/18 9:40 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > 2 trays of straight 8 tapes have popped up on ebay i see if anyones looking > for this sorta stuff > > lhttps:// > www.ebay.ca/itm/DEC-PDP-8-assorted-Paper-Tape/332977526273?hash=item4d8701d601:g:LVEAAOSwsftcIrEZ:rk:1:pf:0 > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Dec 28 12:46:38 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 13:46:38 -0500 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <962ad76b-9270-8ecf-e2ac-5171d7728dc1@sydex.com> References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <58ecd477-e501-4e8d-f878-4b95168736fa@sydex.com> <962ad76b-9270-8ecf-e2ac-5171d7728dc1@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/27/2018 1:53 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/27/18 10:32 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > >> If you want something that can easily be shipped and moved around one >> option is a Qualstar 1052. I wasn't impressed with the quality and >> performance of those. I gave away the ones I had. They do 1600 (and >> 3200), but not 6250. > The 1260 (or later) will do 6250, but I can't recommend it--it isn't > terribly good at reading tapes that the Fuji does fine on. I suspect a > couple of reasons for this--the transport mechanism itself and the very > low speed at 6250 (less induced EMF in the head). > > If that's not important, it is pretty lightweight and comes in a SCSI > version as well. > > --Chuck > > I have a Qualstar 1260 (Pertec Interface) and connected it to a PDP-11/23 with an Emulex TC02.? It was fun to see it spin the tape and read/write data.? I could just imagine what torture it was to collect data or install operating systems that way. Anyway, that's what it took for me to get the PDP-11 tape fever out of my system.? I think under RT-11 the tape was an MS: device.? If you could dig up a DEC TU80 drive it has a pertec interface and open rack space for a BA23 box. Doug From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Dec 28 12:50:09 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 10:50:09 -0800 Subject: Harris Mini's (was: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11) In-Reply-To: References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <10B9F7B4-18AD-4C45-B4C5-3401609B9FE3@avanthar.com> > On Dec 27, 2018, at 11:30 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > I have a bunch of tapes from some Harris minicomputer that I'd like to > digitize at some point. I finally got around to digitizing the paper tapes. > > Thanks! > > Kyle Any clues on what? In the late 80?s I used a Harris Mini. It would be cool to see someone do an emulator for them. Especially if copies of Zork and the Star Trek games exist (there was a Star Trek game that was different than the standard). Zane From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 13:15:59 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 11:15:59 -0800 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <58ecd477-e501-4e8d-f878-4b95168736fa@sydex.com> <962ad76b-9270-8ecf-e2ac-5171d7728dc1@sydex.com> Message-ID: <90aa9fa8-e021-bd65-e29b-1afbb5330bfb@sydex.com> On 12/28/18 10:46 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I have a Qualstar 1260 (Pertec Interface) and connected it to a > PDP-11/23 with an Emulex TC02.? It was fun to see it spin the tape and > read/write data.? I could just imagine what torture it was to collect > data or install operating systems that way. Didn't seem like torture back in the day. If you were in systems development, it was a convenient way to test various configurations--just grab the right tape and IPL/Deadstart/Boot from it. In fact, disk storage was initially meant to be "working store", not storage for masses of data. If a disk drive crashed (and they did), you had the more reliable tape. If you were the systems type, you probably had a stash of your own tapes in your office. I can remember hopping the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with a large Samsonite briefcase full of tapes (you could carry 6 reels in it; I still have the case. It was often the best and least expensive way to get a mass of sensitive data cross-country. Anyone remember 7090 IBSYS or FMS? TOS/360? --Chuck From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 15:19:52 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 16:19:52 -0500 Subject: Harris Mini's (was: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <10B9F7B4-18AD-4C45-B4C5-3401609B9FE3@avanthar.com> References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <10B9F7B4-18AD-4C45-B4C5-3401609B9FE3@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I almost remembered, had to look it up to confirm 81, the 48bit system they carried on when they bought the original company that had made them and the Vulcan OS. Not a bad scientific and instrumentation machine. What was the original company Datacraft or something? bob On Fri, Dec 28, 2018 at 3:47 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Dec 27, 2018, at 11:30 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > > > I have a bunch of tapes from some Harris minicomputer that I'd like to > > digitize at some point. I finally got around to digitizing the paper tapes. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Kyle > > Any clues on what? In the late 80?s I used a Harris Mini. > > It would be cool to see someone do an emulator for them. Especially if copies of Zork and the Star Trek games exist (there was a Star Trek game that was different than the standard). > > Zane > > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Dec 28 15:33:39 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 13:33:39 -0800 Subject: Harris Mini's (was: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11) In-Reply-To: References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <10B9F7B4-18AD-4C45-B4C5-3401609B9FE3@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I didn?t realize they were 48-bit, though I seem to remember them being 24-bit. The system I used was more ?logistics? and general purpose ADP. I spent a *LOT* of time using the MUSE word processor. Zane > On Dec 28, 2018, at 1:19 PM, Bob Smith wrote: > > I almost remembered, had to look it up to confirm 81, the 48bit system > they carried on when they bought the original company that had made > them and the Vulcan OS. Not a bad scientific and instrumentation > machine. What was the original company Datacraft or something? > bob > > On Fri, Dec 28, 2018 at 3:47 PM Zane Healy via cctalk > wrote: >> >> >>> On Dec 27, 2018, at 11:30 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I have a bunch of tapes from some Harris minicomputer that I'd like to >>> digitize at some point. I finally got around to digitizing the paper tapes. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Kyle >> >> Any clues on what? In the late 80?s I used a Harris Mini. >> >> It would be cool to see someone do an emulator for them. Especially if copies of Zork and the Star Trek games exist (there was a Star Trek game that was different than the standard). >> >> Zane >> >> >> From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 28 16:05:09 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 14:05:09 -0800 Subject: Harris Mini's In-Reply-To: References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <10B9F7B4-18AD-4C45-B4C5-3401609B9FE3@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 12/28/18 1:19 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > What was the original company Datacraft or something? > bob correct From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 28 16:57:08 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 14:57:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <90aa9fa8-e021-bd65-e29b-1afbb5330bfb@sydex.com> References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <58ecd477-e501-4e8d-f878-4b95168736fa@sydex.com> <962ad76b-9270-8ecf-e2ac-5171d7728dc1@sydex.com> <90aa9fa8-e021-bd65-e29b-1afbb5330bfb@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I can remember hopping the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with a large > Samsonite briefcase full of tapes (you could carry 6 reels in it; I > still have the case. It was often the best and least expensive way to > get a mass of sensitive data cross-country. But, not quite as much bandwidth as a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 17:00:08 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 17:00:08 -0600 Subject: straight 8 tape on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: txs for posting ur link had another tray with tapes for 34$ buy it now On Fri, Dec 28, 2018 at 1:47 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > In particular, these are for a Teradyne IC tester > > "mjeffs" has been selling trays of tapes for a while, I bought this one > https://www.ebay.com/itm/283247926027 > > because it has the source for Brooklyn Poly BASIC, something Richie Lary > worked on > > > On 12/27/18 9:40 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > 2 trays of straight 8 tapes have popped up on ebay i see if anyones > looking > > for this sorta stuff > > > > lhttps:// > > > www.ebay.ca/itm/DEC-PDP-8-assorted-Paper-Tape/332977526273?hash=item4d8701d601:g:LVEAAOSwsftcIrEZ:rk:1:pf:0 > > > > From dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 11:49:11 2018 From: dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com (Dennis Grevenstein) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 18:49:11 +0100 Subject: SCSI for HP 9000/380 Message-ID: Hi, I do remember that when installing HP-UX 9 and earlier, you could not mix and match SCSI and HP-IB. If you boot from HP-IB you can install on HP-IB, if you boot from SCSI, you can install on a SCSI disk. That may be a limitation in the installer. Once you have everything installed, you can use any device. I am very sure that this was the case with the 800s. I am not quite sure about the 300 series. I once owned a 380 and it worked well with SCSI disks and the onboard SCSI port. regards, Dennis From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Fri Dec 28 14:42:44 2018 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 20:42:44 -0000 Subject: CDC transistor boards Message-ID: <01ab01d49eed$e48c3a60$ada4af20$@eu> Gentlemen of advanced years who can remember CDC, cradle of Cray. Can you tell me which CDC computer type these three boards belonged to? It is for labeling purposes in my personal museum. https://postimg.cc/crJHv3Lt https://postimg.cc/Z0HnYH4h https://postimg.cc/6TtTNgs0 I am sure this will be easy for the right person. Many thanks! peter From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 28 15:46:52 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 16:46:52 -0500 Subject: CDC transistor boards In-Reply-To: <01ab01d49eed$e48c3a60$ada4af20$@eu> References: <01ab01d49eed$e48c3a60$ada4af20$@eu> Message-ID: The second one is a 6000 mainframe "cordwood" module. It should have a two-letter module type code on the front. The third looks like small bits cut from such a cordwood module (my wife has some earrings made that way) but it may be they are actually complete items. If so, I don't recognize them. paul > On Dec 28, 2018, at 3:42 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > > Gentlemen of advanced years who can remember CDC, cradle of Cray. > > Can you tell me which CDC computer type these three boards belonged to? It > is for labeling purposes in my personal museum. > > https://postimg.cc/crJHv3Lt > https://postimg.cc/Z0HnYH4h > https://postimg.cc/6TtTNgs0 > > I am sure this will be easy for the right person. Many thanks! > > peter > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 16:22:49 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 14:22:49 -0800 Subject: CDC transistor boards In-Reply-To: <01ab01d49eed$e48c3a60$ada4af20$@eu> References: <01ab01d49eed$e48c3a60$ada4af20$@eu> Message-ID: On 12/28/18 12:42 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > Gentlemen of advanced years who can remember CDC, cradle of Cray. > > Can you tell me which CDC computer type these three boards belonged to? It > is for labeling purposes in my personal museum. > > https://postimg.cc/crJHv3Lt > https://postimg.cc/Z0HnYH4h > https://postimg.cc/6TtTNgs0 > > I am sure this will be easy for the right person. Many thanks! > > peter > The second one is a 6000-series "cordwood" module. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 18:03:13 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 16:03:13 -0800 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <58ecd477-e501-4e8d-f878-4b95168736fa@sydex.com> <962ad76b-9270-8ecf-e2ac-5171d7728dc1@sydex.com> <90aa9fa8-e021-bd65-e29b-1afbb5330bfb@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/28/18 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > But, not quite as much bandwidth as a station wagon full of tapes > hurtling down the highway. I once rode on an USAF general's jet with a load of 844 packs. That probably was pretty good bandwidth for the time... One thing that escapes many who have never "been there" is that tape is *cheap* compared to other forms of storage for the same time. Government, institutions and corporations didn't just buy them by the pallet-load; they bought them by the truckload. Another thing often not considered is that open-reel tape is extremely durable. Use a reel for a year or two, have it cleaned and recertified, and you're off and running. Usually, during the process, the tapes got shorter, as they tended to wear more at the beginning of the reel. Discard the dicey section, put on a new BOT marker and you're good for another year or two. A five-to-ten year working life on a reel of tape was not unusual at all. Let's see you do that with your LTO carts! --Chuck From steven at malikoff.com Fri Dec 28 18:37:15 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 10:37:15 +1000 Subject: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? Message-ID: Being the 50th anniversary of the flight of Apollo 8, I was watching a newly-uploaded informational film of the mission on Youtube: https://youtu.be/83cGclY9OZk?t=1092 At 18:02 and 18:13 there are what appeasr to be small blue/green tabletop printers on trolleys positioned next to the consoles. They don't have an I/O Selectric form factor but are more like a teletype, or something else entirely, in a sound-deadening box. There's no platen knob visible and it doesn't look to be fanfold paper (I think) so I'm just curious as to any idea what they are? Steve. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 18:43:56 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 18:43:56 -0600 Subject: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: have u seen the agc being fired up videos On Fri, Dec 28, 2018 at 6:37 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Being the 50th anniversary of the flight of Apollo 8, I was watching a > newly-uploaded informational film of the mission on Youtube: > https://youtu.be/83cGclY9OZk?t=1092 > > At 18:02 and 18:13 there are what appeasr to be small blue/green tabletop > printers on trolleys positioned next to the consoles. > They don't have an I/O Selectric form factor but are more like a teletype, > or something else entirely, in a sound-deadening box. > There's no platen knob visible and it doesn't look to be fanfold paper (I > think) so I'm just curious as to any idea what they are? > > Steve. > > From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 18:50:06 2018 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 18:50:06 -0600 Subject: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DC48385-5BB1-4810-8C6A-FE954A192992@gmail.com> Reminds me of a few years ago when I bought some odds and ends out of a NASA engineer's estate on the space coast. In the mix was a Selectric I/O service manual (with NASA Prop stamps). What struck me as unusual was that it was for the keyboard-less version. Yes, even though it was output-only, IBM called it an I/O (at least on the manual cover). I never have seen an IBM-sanctioned housing for such things, though it looks like the chassis itself would fit one of these blue boxes. Still a guess, though. -C On Dec 28, 2018, at 6:37 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Being the 50th anniversary of the flight of Apollo 8, I was watching a newly-uploaded informational film of the mission on Youtube: > https://youtu.be/83cGclY9OZk?t=1092 > > At 18:02 and 18:13 there are what appeasr to be small blue/green tabletop printers on trolleys positioned next to the consoles. > They don't have an I/O Selectric form factor but are more like a teletype, or something else entirely, in a sound-deadening box. > There's no platen knob visible and it doesn't look to be fanfold paper (I think) so I'm just curious as to any idea what they are? > > Steve. > From useddec at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 22:31:33 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 22:31:33 -0600 Subject: TEK 512 scope Message-ID: A few weeks ago Devon had a 555, which I've had years ago. I have never seen a 512 before, so I picked it up. Anyone here need one, or links to TEK lists? Feel free to repost. AS is, where is, zip 61853. Thanks, Paul From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Dec 28 23:00:30 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 21:00:30 -0800 Subject: Original AGC restoration / was Re: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2018-Dec-28, at 4:43 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > have u seen the agc being fired up videos Yes, videos from list member curiousMarc : Episode 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KSahAoOLdU He's up to Episode 5, the others should show up in subsequent links from the 1st. Lucky bunch of guys to have the opportunity (although I can't say I'd want to be stuck in a congested hotel room like that for the task). From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 23:30:20 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 23:30:20 -0600 Subject: Original AGC restoration / was Re: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: amazing how well they built that stuff though On Fri, Dec 28, 2018 at 11:00 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2018-Dec-28, at 4:43 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > have u seen the agc being fired up videos > > > Yes, videos from list member curiousMarc : > Episode 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KSahAoOLdU > > He's up to Episode 5, the others should show up in subsequent links from > the 1st. > > Lucky bunch of guys to have the opportunity (although I can't say I'd want > to be stuck in a congested hotel room like that for the task). > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Dec 28 23:47:20 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 00:47:20 -0500 Subject: OCR old software listing. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2018-12-26 4:29 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Finally I got hold of the sources for the PDP-11 SPACE WAR that was > submitted to DECUS by Bill Seiler. > > The format is scans of the PAL-11S listing output. It is easy to crop the > image to only contain actual source. Then running OCR on it. Tried a few > online versions and tesseract. > > The problem is that the paper that the listing is printed on has lines. > Very black lines. It makes the OCR go completely crazy. Source lines > without black lines OCR ok. The others do not. The files need massive > amount of manual intervention. > > Does anyone have an idea how to process files like this? > > A good way to remove the black lines? Hi Mattis Here's a first cut. Can probably be improved slightly. Let me know how much this still confuses Tesseract. https://docs.telegraphics.com.au/mattis/spcwar_pdp11_edit.tif --Toby > > There are only 19 source files with three or four pages each so I don't > think it makes sense to try to train tesseract to do it (training tesseract > seems to be a huge undertaking). > > https://i.imgur.com/dvY973s.png > > /Mattis > From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Dec 29 00:04:50 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 06:04:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: TEK 512 scope References: <877697273.10476343.1546063490260.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <877697273.10476343.1546063490260@mail.yahoo.com> does it have rca number and plate on back paul? Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Friday, December 28, 2018 Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: A few weeks ago Devon had a 555, which I've had years ago.? I have never seen a 512 before, so I picked it up. Anyone here need one, or links to TEK lists? Feel free to repost. AS is, where is, zip 61853. Thanks, Paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Dec 29 00:32:01 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 01:32:01 -0500 Subject: OCR old software listing. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2018-12-29 12:47 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-12-26 4:29 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> Finally I got hold of the sources for the PDP-11 SPACE WAR that was >> submitted to DECUS by Bill Seiler. >> >> The format is scans of the PAL-11S listing output. It is easy to crop the >> image to only contain actual source. Then running OCR on it. Tried a few >> online versions and tesseract. >> >> The problem is that the paper that the listing is printed on has lines. >> Very black lines. It makes the OCR go completely crazy. Source lines >> without black lines OCR ok. The others do not. The files need massive >> amount of manual intervention. >> >> Does anyone have an idea how to process files like this? >> >> A good way to remove the black lines? > > Hi Mattis > > Here's a first cut. Can probably be improved slightly. Let me know how > much this still confuses Tesseract. > > https://docs.telegraphics.com.au/mattis/spcwar_pdp11_edit.tif > That is a multipage TIF, and the page order key is listed below. I just noticed that a handful of pages seem to be missing, so I'll look into that. CHAR--0000 CHAR--0001 CHAR--0002 CHRTAB--0000 CHRTAB--0001 CHRTAB--0002 COMPAR--0000 COMPAR--0001 COMPAR--0002 COMPAR--0003 EXPLOD--0000 EXPLOD--0001 EXPLOD--0002 GRAVTY--0000 GRAVTY--0001 GRAVTY--0002 GRAVTY--0003 MULPLY--0000 MULPLY--0001 MULPLY--0002 PARM--0000 PARM--0001 PARM--0002 PARM--0003 PARM--0005 PARM--0006 PARM--0007 PARM--0008 PARM--0009 PWRUP--0000 PWRUP--0001 RESET--0000 RESET--0001 RKT1--0000 RKT1--0001 RKT2--0000 RKT2--0001 SCORE--0000 SCORE--0001 SINCOS--0000 SINCOS--0001 SINCOS--0002 SLINE--0000 SLINE--0001 SPCWAR--0000 SPCWAR--0001 SPCWAR--0002 SUN--0000 SUN--0001 SUN--0002 UPDAT1--0000 UPDAT1--0001 UPDAT1--0002 UPDAT2--0000 UPDAT2--0002 point--0000 point--0001 > --Toby > >> >> There are only 19 source files with three or four pages each so I don't >> think it makes sense to try to train tesseract to do it (training tesseract >> seems to be a huge undertaking). >> >> https://i.imgur.com/dvY973s.png >> >> /Mattis >> > > From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 06:17:01 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 05:17:01 -0700 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: <20181221173704.9E6A518C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181221173704.9E6A518C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > AFAIK, the first ICs (in the modern sense) on FLIP CHIPS were on M-series. > The B198, B199, and B250 modules of the KA10 use ICs. First customer shipments are claimed to have been in late 1967. >From something I posted back in 2002, slightly updated: B198 Protection Comparator (used in KT10, KT10A "memory protection and relocation" options) panel 2MN slot 44, panel 2PR slot 5 appears to be an 8-bit magnitude comparator prints drawn 6-18-68, checked 6/21/68, eng. approval 7/2/68 5 74H00N 2 74H40N 4 74H50N 1 74H53N 2 74H55N B199 FM Address Decoder (used in KM10 "fast registers" option) panel 2KL slot 9 acts as a 4-to-16 decoder (similar to 74154), but requires both true and complement inputs prints drawn 3-2-67, checked 4/?/67, eng. approval 7/6/67 8 TI SN7440N or Fairchild 9009 (U6A900959X) B250 FM Module (used in KM10 "fast registers" option), 8 words by 6 bits panel 2KL slots 10-13, 15-18, 20-23 prints drawn 3-2-67, checked 6/30/67, eng. approval 7/6/67 6 Fairchild 9030 (U6A903059X) 4 word by 2 bit RAM chip, 45ns write, 25ns read, 350mW 13 TI SN7440N or Fairchild 9009 (U6A900959X) From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Dec 29 07:31:50 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 07:31:50 -0600 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <58ecd477-e501-4e8d-f878-4b95168736fa@sydex.com> <962ad76b-9270-8ecf-e2ac-5171d7728dc1@sydex.com> <90aa9fa8-e021-bd65-e29b-1afbb5330bfb@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20181229134323.03F504E71F@mx2.ezwind.net> At 06:03 PM 12/28/2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >Let's see you do that with your LTO carts! I suppose we could do the math if we had enough data about the reliability of each. There's more bytes in the LTO basket, but a lot more baskets needed if you want to store the same amount of data on 9-tracks. - John From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 29 11:10:28 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 09:10:28 -0800 Subject: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20181229134323.03F504E71F@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <1545930723561.35822@w2hx.com> <58ecd477-e501-4e8d-f878-4b95168736fa@sydex.com> <962ad76b-9270-8ecf-e2ac-5171d7728dc1@sydex.com> <90aa9fa8-e021-bd65-e29b-1afbb5330bfb@sydex.com> <20181229134323.03F504E71F@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <24394678-e1da-ca80-f8ec-45c44a1466dd@sydex.com> On 12/29/18 5:31 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 06:03 PM 12/28/2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Let's see you do that with your LTO carts! > > I suppose we could do the math if we had enough data about the > reliability of each. There's more bytes in the LTO basket, > but a lot more baskets needed if you want to store the same > amount of data on 9-tracks. My point was more about the longevity and the reusability of the medium as wore with use. LTOs (or any streaming medium) aren't used in the same way that open-reel tapes were back in the day--as a working storage medium. Today, streaming media is mostly used for backup. --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 11:17:01 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 18:17:01 +0100 Subject: Original AGC restoration / was Re: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6D6BB573-388D-44F9-975F-838DB982131D@gmail.com> > On Dec 29, 2018, at 6:00 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > >> On 2018-Dec-28, at 4:43 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >> have u seen the agc being fired up videos > > > Yes, videos from list member curiousMarc : > Episode 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KSahAoOLdU > > He's up to Episode 5, the others should show up in subsequent links from the 1st. > > Lucky bunch of guys to have the opportunity (although I can't say I'd want to be stuck in a congested hotel room like that for the task). > Yes that would be lucky us. Hotel was no fun but owner understandably did not want to ship or even get separated from his AGC. We have been offered some real lab space in Houston for next time, so hopefully we?ll be in better shape. Marc From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Dec 29 12:00:58 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 18:00:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. References: <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING? bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please.... ed#? SMECC Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 12:25:52 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 12:25:52 -0600 Subject: Original AGC restoration / was Re: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? In-Reply-To: <6D6BB573-388D-44F9-975F-838DB982131D@gmail.com> References: <6D6BB573-388D-44F9-975F-838DB982131D@gmail.com> Message-ID: think that core pack will ever live again? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 12:47:57 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 13:47:57 -0500 Subject: CDC transistor boards In-Reply-To: References: <01ab01d49eed$e48c3a60$ada4af20$@eu> Message-ID: Statistically, it is more likely to be a 1700 module (a more common machine). The front bracket is missing, which is the easy way to distinguish the two types. -- Will On Fri, Dec 28, 2018 at 6:10 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > The second one is a 6000 mainframe "cordwood" module. It should have a two-letter module type code on the front. > > The third looks like small bits cut from such a cordwood module (my wife has some earrings made that way) but it may be they are actually complete items. If so, I don't recognize them. > > paul > > > > On Dec 28, 2018, at 3:42 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > > > > Gentlemen of advanced years who can remember CDC, cradle of Cray. > > > > Can you tell me which CDC computer type these three boards belonged to? It > > is for labeling purposes in my personal museum. > > > > https://postimg.cc/crJHv3Lt > > https://postimg.cc/Z0HnYH4h > > https://postimg.cc/6TtTNgs0 > > > > I am sure this will be easy for the right person. Many thanks! > > > > peter > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 29 13:10:01 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 11:10:01 -0800 Subject: CDC transistor boards In-Reply-To: References: <01ab01d49eed$e48c3a60$ada4af20$@eu> Message-ID: <8a9d6252-e69e-12ce-f10b-05fc751cd75e@sydex.com> On 12/29/18 10:47 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Statistically, it is more likely to be a 1700 module (a more common > machine). The front bracket is missing, which is the easy way to > distinguish the two types. That's an interesting observation, but I'm not sure I'd agree with you. While there were more 1700s in circulation, the sheer number of modules used in 6000/Cyber machines and peripherals might tilt the balance the other way. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Dec 29 13:16:49 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 14:16:49 -0500 Subject: OCR old software listing. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429cbde9-0aab-5944-cf0c-243961a02330@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-12-29 1:32 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-12-29 12:47 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> On 2018-12-26 4:29 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >>> Finally I got hold of the sources for the PDP-11 SPACE WAR that was >>> submitted to DECUS by Bill Seiler. >>> >>> The format is scans of the PAL-11S listing output. It is easy to crop the >>> image to only contain actual source. Then running OCR on it. Tried a few >>> online versions and tesseract. >>> >>> The problem is that the paper that the listing is printed on has lines. >>> Very black lines. It makes the OCR go completely crazy. Source lines >>> without black lines OCR ok. The others do not. The files need massive >>> amount of manual intervention. >>> >>> Does anyone have an idea how to process files like this? >>> >>> A good way to remove the black lines? >> >> Hi Mattis >> >> Here's a first cut. Can probably be improved slightly. Let me know how >> much this still confuses Tesseract. >> >> https://docs.telegraphics.com.au/mattis/spcwar_pdp11_edit.tif >> > > That is a multipage TIF, and the page order key is listed below. > > I just noticed that a handful of pages seem to be missing, so I'll look > into that. > Fixed that. I was also able to improve the quality. Same link. The full page manifest is: CHAR--0000 CHAR--0001 CHAR--0002 CHRTAB--0000 CHRTAB--0001 CHRTAB--0002 CHRTAB--0003 COMPAR--0000 COMPAR--0001 COMPAR--0002 COMPAR--0003 EXPLOD--0000 EXPLOD--0001 EXPLOD--0002 GRAVTY--0000 GRAVTY--0001 GRAVTY--0002 GRAVTY--0003 MULPLY--0000 MULPLY--0001 MULPLY--0002 PARM--0000 PARM--0001 PARM--0002 PARM--0003 PARM--0004 PARM--0005 PARM--0006 PARM--0007 PARM--0008 PARM--0009 PWRUP--0000 PWRUP--0001 RESET--0000 RESET--0001 RKT1--0000 RKT1--0001 RKT2--0000 RKT2--0001 SCORE--0000 SCORE--0001 SINCOS--0000 SINCOS--0001 SINCOS--0002 SINCOS--0003 SLINE--0000 SLINE--0001 SPCWAR--0000 SPCWAR--0001 SPCWAR--0002 SUN--0000 SUN--0001 SUN--0002 UPDAT1--0000 UPDAT1--0001 UPDAT1--0002 UPDAT2--0000 UPDAT2--0001 UPDAT2--0002 point--0000 point--0001 > >> --Toby >> >>> >>> There are only 19 source files with three or four pages each so I don't >>> think it makes sense to try to train tesseract to do it (training tesseract >>> seems to be a huge undertaking). >>> >>> https://i.imgur.com/dvY973s.png >>> >>> /Mattis >>> >> >> > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 13:21:33 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 14:21:33 -0500 Subject: CDC transistor boards In-Reply-To: <8a9d6252-e69e-12ce-f10b-05fc751cd75e@sydex.com> References: <01ab01d49eed$e48c3a60$ada4af20$@eu> <8a9d6252-e69e-12ce-f10b-05fc751cd75e@sydex.com> Message-ID: Don't let the (very few) online pictures of early 1700s (1704 and 1706) fool you - the things have a *lot* of modules when the options are added. It might be that while the 6000 series followed the Cray "simple/fewer" design philosophy, the 1700 line may not have. -- Will On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 2:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/29/18 10:47 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > Statistically, it is more likely to be a 1700 module (a more common > > machine). The front bracket is missing, which is the easy way to > > distinguish the two types. > > That's an interesting observation, but I'm not sure I'd agree with you. > While there were more 1700s in circulation, the sheer number of modules > used in 6000/Cyber machines and peripherals might tilt the balance the > other way. > > --Chuck > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 13:49:30 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 14:49:30 -0500 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I just passed along three boxes of these to the VCFed collection. Eventually I assume there will be a library to make these available onsite, not sure. On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 1:01 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or > unbound... dtop us a line off list please.... ed# SMECC > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 29 14:00:21 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 12:00:21 -0800 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: References: <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> On 12/29/18 11:49 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I just passed along three boxes of these to the VCFed collection. > Eventually I assume there will be a library to make these available onsite, > not sure. Stupid question, but doesn't IEEE CS already have these archived? (Yes, I know for access, you need to cross their palm with silver, but it might point to copyright issues). --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 29 14:05:36 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 12:05:36 -0800 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> References: <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <496a395b-526e-8826-51f9-c3ab33f1f916@bitsavers.org> On 12/29/18 12:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Stupid question, but doesn't IEEE CS already have these archived? of course they are we are speaking with paper obsessed siverfish lovers here though From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 29 14:06:51 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 12:06:51 -0800 Subject: CDC transistor boards In-Reply-To: References: <01ab01d49eed$e48c3a60$ada4af20$@eu> Message-ID: <93e7a03f-7396-68bb-4655-960ffa76c20e@sydex.com> On 12/29/18 10:47 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Statistically, it is more likely to be a 1700 module (a more common > machine). The front bracket is missing, which is the easy way to > distinguish the two types. Don't know what the 1700 count was, but each 6600 had about 6,000 modules--and then there were the 6400s, 6500s and 6700s, as well as ECS controllers...not to mention the CYBER 70 series... --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 14:34:45 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 15:34:45 -0500 Subject: CDC transistor boards In-Reply-To: <93e7a03f-7396-68bb-4655-960ffa76c20e@sydex.com> References: <01ab01d49eed$e48c3a60$ada4af20$@eu> <93e7a03f-7396-68bb-4655-960ffa76c20e@sydex.com> Message-ID: I think the Cyber 70s used the later modules (the multilayer and/or IC things). -- Will On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 3:06 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/29/18 10:47 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > Statistically, it is more likely to be a 1700 module (a more common > > machine). The front bracket is missing, which is the easy way to > > distinguish the two types. > > Don't know what the 1700 count was, but each 6600 had about 6,000 > modules--and then there were the 6400s, 6500s and 6700s, as well as ECS > controllers...not to mention the CYBER 70 series... > > --Chuck > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Dec 29 14:53:29 2018 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 12:53:29 -0800 Subject: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard Message-ID: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> Am just posting this as I am hoping someone out there knows someone who was involved with Osborne back in the day to find out more this Osborne 1 motherboard I found in a low serial O1 I picked up for $100. I reached out to Lee Felsenstein on it and he suggested it was related to the boards produced for the 10 prototypes Osborne built, or a derivative of them. He couldn't say for sure how it ended up in mine. But I was hoping if anyone knows any Osborne experts that might help me on this - it is not currently working and I'm hoping to find schematics, etc to get it going again. Obviously with the radical differences in layout, the schematics for the production motherboard isn't terribly helpful. I've posted a blog about it here with a picture of the board for those curious: http://bradhodge.ca/blog/?p=1186 Brad From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 29 15:28:37 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 13:28:37 -0800 Subject: CDC transistor boards In-Reply-To: References: <01ab01d49eed$e48c3a60$ada4af20$@eu> <93e7a03f-7396-68bb-4655-960ffa76c20e@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/29/18 12:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I think the Cyber 70s used the later modules (the multilayer and/or IC things). Nope, the Cyber 70s were very minor upgrades to the 6000 series. A bunch of QSEs were made standard features, such as CMU (lower Cyber), CEJ, ILR, etc. Same cordwood modules, though. Blue-glass and fake wood skins, mostly. I witnessed a 6400 being upgraded to a Cyber 73; most of it was cosmetic. The 170s were quite different, however. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 29 15:33:37 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 13:33:37 -0800 Subject: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard In-Reply-To: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> References: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <71b3249d-3484-7b38-510e-e5fee7a7d386@sydex.com> On 12/29/18 12:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > I've posted a blog about it here with a picture of the board for those > curious: http://bradhodge.ca/blog/?p=1186 If you can run down any of the old Sorcim crowd, say, Richard Frank or Marty Herbach, they might have saved some information. I first saw the O1 when Richard showed me into a room with the various bits strewn about on a tabletop (no case yet). I opined that it would never sell with the tiny display. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 29 16:08:30 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 14:08:30 -0800 Subject: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard In-Reply-To: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> References: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <593ac80f-826c-1f8e-fc21-32af11ec14ca@bitsavers.org> On 12/29/18 12:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > I reached out to Lee Felsenstein on it and he suggested it was related to > the boards produced for the 10 prototypes Osborne built I'm pretty sure I threw one of those out about five years ago. Will dig through the archive to see if there are any earlier schematics seems like most out there are for the multi-layer board the original technical manual mentions there were 6 revs of the pcb http://bitsavers.org/pdf/osborne/osborne1/2F00153-01_Osborne1TechnicalManual_1982.pdf page 13 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 29 16:33:13 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 14:33:13 -0800 Subject: CDC transistor boards In-Reply-To: References: <01ab01d49eed$e48c3a60$ada4af20$@eu> <93e7a03f-7396-68bb-4655-960ffa76c20e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <04d706cb-fa15-f725-7ffa-53eb7a672b49@sydex.com> Were the brackets on the 1700 cordwood modules shorter than the 6000 series? I've got a switch module here in a desk drawer--it's a 3-position switch labeled A O C and is illuminated with a couple of reed relays on the PCB. PCB size is the same as 6000, as is the connector, but bracket is definitely shorter. Top PCB is labeled E03A; bottom is E04A. I never did discover what it belonged to. --Chuck From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 16:48:27 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 16:48:27 -0600 Subject: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard In-Reply-To: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> References: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <8835178E-1F80-4C5B-83B8-82DD0C4F1ECA@gmail.com> Maybe too easy but have you asked the seller if they know anything about it's origins? I'd also guess maybe an employee or it could just be one of the 6 motherboard types as someone else commented. Pretty awesome though with the low serial. Thanks also for the blog. I had no idea about the different designs and cases. I'm curious which one I have now. Sent from my Apple /////c > On Dec 29, 2018, at 2:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > > Am just posting this as I am hoping someone out there knows someone who was > involved with Osborne back in the day to find out more this Osborne 1 > motherboard I found in a low serial O1 I picked up for $100. > > > > I reached out to Lee Felsenstein on it and he suggested it was related to > the boards produced for the 10 prototypes Osborne built, or a derivative of > them. He couldn't say for sure how it ended up in mine. But I was hoping > if anyone knows any Osborne experts that might help me on this - it is not > currently working and I'm hoping to find schematics, etc to get it going > again. Obviously with the radical differences in layout, the schematics for > the production motherboard isn't terribly helpful. > > > > I've posted a blog about it here with a picture of the board for those > curious: http://bradhodge.ca/blog/?p=1186 > > > > Brad > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Dec 29 17:08:39 2018 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 15:08:39 -0800 Subject: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard In-Reply-To: <593ac80f-826c-1f8e-fc21-32af11ec14ca@bitsavers.org> References: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> <593ac80f-826c-1f8e-fc21-32af11ec14ca@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <038501d49fcb$702b2440$50816cc0$@bettercomputing.net> Yeah, I'm thinking mine is a Rev C that met the requirements for Rev D (seems to be a D in marker). If the board serial is what's in marker there, and is 1-00494 - that's pretty close to the serial, so that would kind of line up. I just haven't been able to find any other machines in the same serial range or even lower that don't have the Revision that came after. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2018 2:09 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard On 12/29/18 12:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > I reached out to Lee Felsenstein on it and he suggested it was related > to the boards produced for the 10 prototypes Osborne built I'm pretty sure I threw one of those out about five years ago. Will dig through the archive to see if there are any earlier schematics seems like most out there are for the multi-layer board the original technical manual mentions there were 6 revs of the pcb http://bitsavers.org/pdf/osborne/osborne1/2F00153-01_Osborne1TechnicalManual_1982.pdf page 13 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 18:05:04 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 01:05:04 +0100 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <736f8141-600f-8b9c-ab97-da639accff90@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1022990272.2683.1545235549249@wamui-moana.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <46677efc-8889-4129-24af-603ed9ecdd02@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <736f8141-600f-8b9c-ab97-da639accff90@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 at 18:52, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/19/2018 10:45 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > 80186? > > I really thought it was 8x86 where the x was 0, 1, 2, 3, or 4. :-o No no, never. But there was the i860 and i960 as well, remember. And the iAPX-432. There's more to life than x86. > I think IBM had some special things that were modifications. Supposedly > my model 70 is a special 386 instruction set that has some hybrid CPU in > it. I don't remember the specifics. IBM was fab'ing chips at the time > and had licenses to Intel's IP. So they created a 386 that was somehow > more than / different from a 386. Maybe it was a crippled 486 that only > had the bus of the 386. I don't recall. SLC series? 386SLC & 486SLC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_386SLC I think IBM also rebadged or fabbed these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrix_Cx486SLC -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 18:13:38 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 01:13:38 +0100 Subject: xterm Tektronix xp217 for sale In-Reply-To: References: <1022990272.2683.1545235549249@wamui-moana.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <46677efc-8889-4129-24af-603ed9ecdd02@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <736f8141-600f-8b9c-ab97-da639accff90@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: so, already asked but i haven't yet got a clear answer I have an xterm Tektronix xp217 for sale it comes with *everything* you need to use it - its original PSU, able to operate from 100-to-250V - its original CD with the firmware (it's required a tftpboot server) it's located in Italy let me know if interested, your offer, and your location in order to calculate the shipping cost (I have discount with UPS) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 18:20:58 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 18:20:58 -0600 Subject: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard In-Reply-To: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> References: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <25aa25e3-ef70-adb2-d9b6-17eca1d4aea9@gmail.com> On 12/29/18 2:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Am just posting this as I am hoping someone out there knows someone who was > involved with Osborne back in the day to find out more this Osborne 1 > motherboard I found in a low serial O1 I picked up for $100. Is it just the board layout that's different, or does it appear to be a completely different animal, schematic-wise? (I mean, is there a possibility that the common schematics could still be used for fault diagnosis, despite the different chip locations) I wonder why the board layout changed? I mean sure there was a lot of unused space in yours, but it's not like the production boards were physically smaller. I'm surprised that additional space couldn't have been used for some other potential future purpose - RAM expansion or whatever. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 18:23:09 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 16:23:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard In-Reply-To: <71b3249d-3484-7b38-510e-e5fee7a7d386@sydex.com> References: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> <71b3249d-3484-7b38-510e-e5fee7a7d386@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I first saw the O1 when Richard showed me into a room with the various > bits strewn about on a tabletop (no case yet). I opined that it would > never sell with the tiny display. I had known that Lee was working on something like that, but no details until Adam was hanging around while they built one of the most lavish Computer Faire booths across the aisle from mine (which was flush doors on short filing cabinets) with Joe Garner's "Elcompco" already on display, with a couple of sales. We opined, "They've got enough room for larger; first big upgrade will be a bigger screen." Joe's Elcompco also had a 5" screen in a Halliburton attache case, without room for more, but with an RCA jack for external monitor. In those days, my eyesight was so good that I had no problem with it. I sometimes used a viewfinder form a video camera as a portable monitor. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 18:28:07 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 16:28:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard In-Reply-To: <8835178E-1F80-4C5B-83B8-82DD0C4F1ECA@gmail.com> References: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> <8835178E-1F80-4C5B-83B8-82DD0C4F1ECA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2018, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: > Maybe too easy but have you asked the seller if they know anything about > it's origins? I'd also guess maybe an employee or it could just be one > of the 6 motherboard types as someone else commented. Pretty awesome > though with the low serial. Thanks also for the blog. I had no idea > about the different designs and cases. Some small companies would give employees extreme discounts if they assembled one themselves using mostly parts which had been deemed too obsolete for production. From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Dec 29 18:35:17 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 11:35:17 +1100 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <496a395b-526e-8826-51f9-c3ab33f1f916@bitsavers.org> References: <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 12:05 PM 29/12/2018 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >On 12/29/18 12:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Stupid question, but doesn't IEEE CS already have these archived? > >of course they are > >we are speaking with paper obsessed siverfish lovers here though > Coming from you that's a worrying comment, unless you are joking. So Al, just curious, once bitsavers has scanned the manuals and stuff people send them, what happens to those paper originals? Does bit savers return them? Or make them available to others? Can people sending manuals to bitsavers get a guarantee (if they ask for it) the originals won't be destroyed? I'm asking while bearing in mind an instance of tech history loss in Australia a few decades ago, particularly tragic. An outfit called High Country Service Data, located in the Kosciuszko area, had a vast collection of service and user manuals, including a lot of early Oz-tech stuff like from BWD. Their business model was 'rented lending library.' You contacted them (phone or post) and if they had the manual you wanted they'd post it to you for a fee. You kept it a limited time, then posted back to them. Eventually scanners became available. HCSD thought their business would work better if they eliminated physical storage costs. They 'scanned' all the manuals (ultra crap resolution, B&W, stupid ignorant goofs, etc) then.... DESTROYED the originals. Because they didn't want to sell or give them away or even donate to the Australian national library, since that might create a competitor. This is not conjecture; the HCSD owner (who made those decisions) personally 'explained' that to me on the phone. The prime benefit of silverfish infested bulky piles of old paper, distributed widely among individuals who value history, is that no central entity can just suddenly decide to destroy them all, for whatever reason. Or 'mass edit' the digital files, like some corporations have been culling schematics from their archives of digitized old manuals. Having freely available digital copies is great. Kudos to bitsavers. But the paper originals have to be preserved in a distributed way too. For *many* reasons. I also have a question about a specific silverfish infested paper manual. On 22 Sep 2018 you wrote, Re: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader >I'm pretty sure I just saw a paper copy of the TM200 manual >which is different from the M200. I'll have to dig around to >try to find it again. I guess you never found it? I've asked you about it a couple of times since and you've ignored my queries. If you do find it, after you've scanned it I'd like to buy it if possible. I can't find any other copy and I do need it to get the machine's electronics going. Also I'm another paper obsessed siverfish lover. Aka PDF-hating cynic who thinks current digital document file formats and display utilities are still far too primative to be acceptable for convenient common use and as a reliable 'sole copy.' They are still a last resort. Guy PS naphthalene. Hmm, I'd better stock up before it's banned here too. https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/health-and-wellness/mothballs-warning-sounded-by-experts-20110206-1aif5.html From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Dec 29 18:48:30 2018 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 16:48:30 -0800 Subject: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard In-Reply-To: <25aa25e3-ef70-adb2-d9b6-17eca1d4aea9@gmail.com> References: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> <25aa25e3-ef70-adb2-d9b6-17eca1d4aea9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <038801d49fd9$632648c0$2972da40$@bettercomputing.net> There are definitely some differences. For example, the ROM BIOS on mine is contained on two 2716s instead of a single 2732 as in the later boards. There's a few jumper wires on the board too. I imagine it's largely the same, although if it were completely I'm not sure why they'd do a full redesign and not, like you said, use some of that extra space for more RAM or something. Lee himself didn't really know.. all he said was that that space, in the prototypes, was occupied by linear voltage regulators that were changed/designed out after. Maybe what I'll do is make a complete list of the ICs and see how it lines up with a later production board. And then compare other components. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson via cctalk Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2018 4:21 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard On 12/29/18 2:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Am just posting this as I am hoping someone out there knows someone > who was involved with Osborne back in the day to find out more this > Osborne 1 motherboard I found in a low serial O1 I picked up for $100. Is it just the board layout that's different, or does it appear to be a completely different animal, schematic-wise? (I mean, is there a possibility that the common schematics could still be used for fault diagnosis, despite the different chip locations) I wonder why the board layout changed? I mean sure there was a lot of unused space in yours, but it's not like the production boards were physically smaller. I'm surprised that additional space couldn't have been used for some other potential future purpose - RAM expansion or whatever. cheers Jules From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Dec 29 18:59:03 2018 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 16:59:03 -0800 Subject: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard In-Reply-To: <8835178E-1F80-4C5B-83B8-82DD0C4F1ECA@gmail.com> References: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> <8835178E-1F80-4C5B-83B8-82DD0C4F1ECA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <038901d49fda$dc39f620$94ade260$@bettercomputing.net> I'd love to see a photo of the innards of the prototype if anyone knows where to find them. There were 10 built, and someone took a photo recently enough for it to be of decent quality (the one that appears on oldcomputers.net). Someone must have one somewhere. I think Al might be onto something with the tech manual. The question is, how did the revision scheme work? I have two Revisions noted on the board.. the 2A2011-00 Rev D (in marker), and 3A3005-00 Rev C. Looking at later boards like this one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/31731875815/in/photostream/ ... It looks like the trailing 2 digits on the 2A2011 number changed to either 02 or 20. So is a 2A2011-00 Rev D and a 2A2011-20 Rev D the same thing? Don't' know. And then other boards used a 3Axxxx-xx number instead of the 2A2001 number. Kind of confusing. Brad -----Original Message----- From: Sam O'nella [mailto:barythrin at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2018 2:48 PM To: Brad H ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard Maybe too easy but have you asked the seller if they know anything about it's origins? I'd also guess maybe an employee or it could just be one of the 6 motherboard types as someone else commented. Pretty awesome though with the low serial. Thanks also for the blog. I had no idea about the different designs and cases. I'm curious which one I have now. Sent from my Apple /////c > On Dec 29, 2018, at 2:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > > Am just posting this as I am hoping someone out there knows someone > who was involved with Osborne back in the day to find out more this > Osborne 1 motherboard I found in a low serial O1 I picked up for $100. > > > > I reached out to Lee Felsenstein on it and he suggested it was related > to the boards produced for the 10 prototypes Osborne built, or a > derivative of them. He couldn't say for sure how it ended up in mine. > But I was hoping if anyone knows any Osborne experts that might help > me on this - it is not currently working and I'm hoping to find > schematics, etc to get it going again. Obviously with the radical > differences in layout, the schematics for the production motherboard isn't terribly helpful. > > > > I've posted a blog about it here with a picture of the board for those > curious: http://bradhodge.ca/blog/?p=1186 > > > > Brad > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Dec 29 19:01:15 2018 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:01:15 -0800 Subject: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard In-Reply-To: References: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> <8835178E-1F80-4C5B-83B8-82DD0C4F1ECA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <038a01d49fdb$2b571ad0$82055070$@bettercomputing.net> > Some small companies would give employees extreme discounts if they assembled one themselves using mostly parts which had been deemed too > >obsolete for production. I was thinking something like that, or it was repaired at one point and this particular board was on hand to use as a replacement. The key would be figuring out what the apparent serial number '1-00494' means. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 29 20:30:43 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 18:30:43 -0800 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <43dd09e4-ec6d-b31e-d7f5-8211effb3e92@sydex.com> I wish I would have known. I joined IEEE Annals at the beginning. I eventually dropped my subscription because I found that the inaccuracies would just make me mad. I threw out a bunch of ACM SIGPLAN notices (the local library didn't want them) from the 1978s. Still need to get rid of a pile of old CACM rags as well as IEEE Computer. I'm staring at a pile of IEEE Micro and a bunch of PC-related magazines from the 80s-90s (e.g. "DOS Developer's Journal", which became "Windows/DOS Developer's Journal", which became "Windows Developer's Journal", which was then thankfully put out of its misery by merging into Doctor Dobbs'). I still have a bunch of "PC Tech Journal" and other various periodicals. If anyone's looking for something special, let me know. They'll all be gone to the recycler by the end of January. --Chuck From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sun Dec 30 00:27:49 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 00:27:49 -0600 Subject: Original AGC restoration / was Re: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? In-Reply-To: <6D6BB573-388D-44F9-975F-838DB982131D@gmail.com> References: <6D6BB573-388D-44F9-975F-838DB982131D@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 29, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > Yes that would be lucky us. Hotel was no fun but owner understandably did not want to ship or even get separated from his AGC. We have been offered some real lab space in Houston for next time, so hopefully we?ll be in better shape. Considering that I have had more than one person threaten to dox me and show up at my house over KEYBOARDS, I don?t blame him at all. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Dec 30 00:37:26 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 06:37:26 +0000 Subject: Original AGC restoration / was Re: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? In-Reply-To: References: <6D6BB573-388D-44F9-975F-838DB982131D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 30/12/2018 06:27, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > >> On Dec 29, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: >> >> Yes that would be lucky us. Hotel was no fun but owner understandably did not want to ship or even get separated from his AGC. We have been offered some real lab space in Houston for next time, so hopefully we?ll be in better shape. > Considering that I have had more than one person threaten to dox me and show up at my house over KEYBOARDS, I don?t blame him at all. > Well you certainly got a long way. What is dox? I am English and I don't speak fluent American anymore. This must all have something to do with 1969 when I watched it all on a 9" mono TV in my little flat in Germany where I was working. I don't know who I admire most. You guys or those who made the AGC all that time ago. -- From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sun Dec 30 00:40:31 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 00:40:31 -0600 Subject: Original AGC restoration / was Re: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? In-Reply-To: References: <6D6BB573-388D-44F9-975F-838DB982131D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <698EF912-98E9-4847-A57D-8997D00A2A69@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Dec 30, 2018, at 12:37 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > What is dox? New-era-internet term for illegally gaining access to someone's real world ?documents" (place of employment, home address, phone numbers, medical records, family members? info, etc) for harassment, stalking, or worse. From kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 08:29:53 2018 From: kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com (Kevin Anderson) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 14:29:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Harris Mini's (was: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11) References: <708401366.4074686.1546180193815.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <708401366.4074686.1546180193815@mail.yahoo.com> Zane wrote: > I didn?t realize they were 48-bit, though I seem to remember them being 24-bit. > The system I used was more ?logistics? and general purpose ADP. I spent a *LOT* > of time using the MUSE word processor. > > Zane >> On Dec 28, 2018, at 1:19 PM, Bob Smith wrote: >> >> I almost remembered, had to look it up to confirm 81, the 48bit system >> they carried on when they bought the original company that had made >> them and the Vulcan OS. Not a bad scientific and instrumentation >> machine. What was the original company Datacraft or something? >> bob >> Zane, you are right that the Harris computers were 24-bit processors. The primary word was 24 bits, with double integer at 48 bits and full floating point at 96 bits. Someday, when I have time, maybe I will think about an emulator. But not right now. I too spent many hours on Harris systems from 1977 to about 1983 or 1984, in college and then in working with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers during summers and break weeks in graduate school. Most of my work was with FORTRAN, plus some assembly and COBOL. Kevin Anderson From dave at mausner.us Sat Dec 29 20:39:50 2018 From: dave at mausner.us (dave mausner) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 20:39:50 -0600 Subject: Controlfreaks Digest, Vol 177, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter, the second one in your list is an example of a 6X00 cordwood package. -- Dave Mausner. +1-312-925-3694. +1-708-848-2775. Rem tene; verba sequentur -- Cato On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 3:01 PM < controlfreaks-request at lists.controlfreaks.org> wrote: > Send Controlfreaks mailing list submissions to > controlfreaks at lists.controlfreaks.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.controlfreaks.org/listinfo.cgi/controlfreaks-controlfreaks.org > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > controlfreaks-request at lists.controlfreaks.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > controlfreaks-owner at lists.controlfreaks.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Controlfreaks digest..." > Today's Topics: > > 1. Fwd: CDC transistor boards (Paul Koning) > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Paul Koning > To: controlfreaks > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 16:47:16 -0500 > Subject: Fwd: CDC transistor boards > Seen on another list, I identified the second but not the other two. > > paul > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *Peter Van Peborgh via cctech > *Subject: **CDC transistor boards* > *Date: *December 28, 2018 at 3:42:44 PM EST > *To: * > *Reply-To: *Peter Van Peborgh , "General Discussion: > On-Topic Posts" > > Gentlemen of advanced years who can remember CDC, cradle of Cray. > > Can you tell me which CDC computer type these three boards belonged to? It > is for labeling purposes in my personal museum. > > https://postimg.cc/crJHv3Lt > https://postimg.cc/Z0HnYH4h > https://postimg.cc/6TtTNgs0 > > I am sure this will be easy for the right person. Many thanks! > > peter > > > > > From sop00000h at scotnet.co.uk Sun Dec 30 05:26:02 2018 From: sop00000h at scotnet.co.uk (sop00000h at scotnet.co.uk) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 11:26:02 +0000 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <-wj7m6j1jux7z-rn34e7-y5skk5ysixkx-ro8gi1-wkl9zf-wx1k91-j80inwcjyng7-p6ijsq-jpv1zz-kz4dj6-dyuocfuh3gm0k1ovxitj2i36-obksym4gih7acgdgtbsbocna-b57gfx-ehiuz-5zekfv.1546169162867@email.android.com> Pdp 8 tapes... I have a bid i for these. Was planning to duplicate - not for profit - and stick em up on a we-site for others to view/download.... Is there a repository for such tapes?? Bitsaver?? Sent from my HUAWEI P10 on Three From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 10:42:23 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 17:42:23 +0100 Subject: Original AGC restoration / was Re: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? In-Reply-To: References: <6D6BB573-388D-44F9-975F-838DB982131D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F67E754-C2C1-4FA8-A000-084A98646A87@gmail.com> We don?t know yet. Looks like a very difficult repair. Marc > On Dec 29, 2018, at 7:25 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > think that core pack will ever live again? > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 30 12:41:25 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 18:41:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. References: <1450393215.10856166.1546195285687.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1450393215.10856166.1546195285687@mail.yahoo.com> yep IEEE? lets none of thier? stuff into the open? that? is? sought? after... Worse? yet... Lucent? gave them Bell System? Tech? Journals? which? Lucent? had? ? up? for? free... then? then? IEEE? slapped them? behind a? paywall. Ed# In a message dated 12/29/2018 1:00:29 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 12/29/18 11:49 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I just passed along three boxes of these to the VCFed collection. > Eventually I assume there will be a library to make these available onsite, > not sure. Stupid question, but doesn't IEEE CS already have these archived?? (Yes, I know for access, you need to cross their palm with silver, but it might point to copyright issues). --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 30 12:43:17 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 18:43:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. References: <129947791.10866210.1546195397268.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <129947791.10866210.1546195397268@mail.yahoo.com> RIGHT ON! In a message dated 12/29/2018 5:35:20 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: The prime benefit of silverfish infested bulky piles of old paper, distributed widely among individuals who value history, is that no central entity can just suddenly decide to destroy them all, for whatever reason. Or 'mass edit' the digital files, like some corporations have been culling schematics from their archives of digitized old manuals. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 13:31:56 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 13:31:56 -0600 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <496a395b-526e-8826-51f9-c3ab33f1f916@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 6:35 PM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > At 12:05 PM 29/12/2018 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > >On 12/29/18 12:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Stupid question, but doesn't IEEE CS already have these archived? > > > >of course they are > > > >we are speaking with paper obsessed siverfish lovers here though > > > > Coming from you that's a worrying comment, unless you are joking. Eh, he's probably not. I love paper and I love scanning, and I dedicate a lot of space and time to both. I can't keep everything but I keep a lot more than one man without a warehouse should. I do know now, though, that when I get that big document warehouse (climate-controlled, of course) that I fill with every manual on Earth, with room for extra-planetary docs, should they survive the shipping process, it will be called the "Silverfish Motel". -j From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 13:37:55 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 13:37:55 -0600 Subject: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard In-Reply-To: <038901d49fda$dc39f620$94ade260$@bettercomputing.net> References: <037201d49fb8$8e6d3eb0$ab47bc10$@bettercomputing.net> <8835178E-1F80-4C5B-83B8-82DD0C4F1ECA@gmail.com> <038901d49fda$dc39f620$94ade260$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <38e3b75d-3d7b-63c3-8fb1-35eaf433506f@gmail.com> On 12/29/18 6:59 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > And then other boards used a 3Axxxx-xx number instead of the 2A2001 number. > Kind of confusing. For what it's worth, looking at a photo, my[1] machine's board looks more like "3P10083 REV A" down by the front edge of the board, unless there's some dirt or other debris making it look like a 'P' rather than an 'A'. Unfortunately I don't have a photo of the entire board, so I'm not sure what the serial number top-left is (and if the data there typically differs from the data along that front edge). IC date codes appear to be early 1982, and the case is one of the more rugged 1a ones. [1] At least I think it's mine :-) I picked up two machines from another collector a few years ago, and one of them went off to another list member, so it's possible that the photo I've got is of that one. Interestingly the main Wikipedia article for OCC says that the first machines went out in July and they sold 11,000 in the eight months after that - but the article specifically for the Osborne 1 seems to suggest that systems went out in April (but again with 11,000 sold in the eight months after). The main article mentions a 10-15% failure rate, which seems incredibly high - presumably pressure to meet demand and repair faulty systems was enormous, which could explain how a prototype / early board found its way out into the wild. Jules From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 12:59:20 2018 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 11:59:20 -0700 Subject: RSTS source tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does anyone know the OFFICIAL status of RSTS/E source? I am aware of the Mentec license, but it appears to only grant a license to the binary distribution. I believe I have source tapes to RSTS/E version 5 & 6 that I would like to release copies, but I cannot until I can get official permission. I acquired the tapes from a person who did some development on early PDP-11's. I am checking my binary versions of the RSTS tapes and if they are ok, I can release RSTS/E V5B and RSTS/E V6B. --barrym From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 13:12:41 2018 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 12:12:41 -0700 Subject: RSTS COBOL Message-ID: Is the optional RSTS/E COBOL software available for RSTS/E V5 or V6? I Googled for it, but I didn't uncover a copy. --barrym From paul at mcjones.org Sun Dec 30 13:37:15 2018 From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 11:37:15 -0800 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8BA5B65C-7F05-494B-B641-1128057FAEFD@mcjones.org> Chuck, I?ve found the Living Computers Museum in Seattle is interested in building their collection of paper copies of journals, and will pay for shipping. The form to offer items for donation is here: https://livingcomputers.org/Discover/Contribute-Historical-Artifacts.aspx . The more carefully you list the specific issues you have, the more likely they are to accept your offer (assuming they don?t already have the same issues). I?ve donated ACM publications and also various early PC magazines to them, plus a bunch of old MSDN CD-ROMs. Paul > From: Chuck Guzis > > > I wish I would have known. I joined IEEE Annals at the beginning. I > eventually dropped my subscription because I found that the inaccuracies > would just make me mad. > > I threw out a bunch of ACM SIGPLAN notices (the local library didn't > want them) from the 1978s. Still need to get rid of a pile of old CACM > rags as well as IEEE Computer. I'm staring at a pile of IEEE Micro and > a bunch of PC-related magazines from the 80s-90s (e.g. "DOS Developer's > Journal", which became "Windows/DOS Developer's Journal", which became > "Windows Developer's Journal", which was then thankfully put out of its > misery by merging into Doctor Dobbs'). > > I still have a bunch of "PC Tech Journal" and other various periodicals. > > If anyone's looking for something special, let me know. They'll all be > gone to the recycler by the end of January. > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 30 15:02:39 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 21:02:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. References: <1973603123.10904095.1546203759320.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1973603123.10904095.1546203759320@mail.yahoo.com> We? have? a? few? dupes here? but? reserving those? for? someone that might? ?help us? out. Another? great? reference are the old? joint computer? conference? ?east and? west? ?books.? ?were or? became? AFIPS WOW THEY HAVE ALL? ? THE INSERTING? EARLY STUFF! We? have the? stuff? from start to? the? 80s? ?as? I? remember... nothing newer..? ?a? fine? gift? ?from? Honeywell / Bull? HN and? ?some? from? side sources...? some of the later? hard? bound? ones? we? have? some? duplicates? of... need? to make a? list..? The? early? ones? ?we? may be? missing? an? issue ?? ?will? have to make a? current? list. These AFIPS? ?publications are? ?another? group that? ?are not? in full open? access on the? internet? as? far as? I know..? But? ?should? be! Some? I? like? looking at? ?for? something different? ?are the UK? data processing? Mags? form the? 50's and? 60s? as there are? computer and companies in there? I? know nothing about at all. Ed#? ? SMECC In a message dated 12/30/2018 1:43:42 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Chuck, I?ve found the Living Computers Museum in Seattle is interested in building their collection of paper copies of journals, and will pay for shipping. The form to offer items for donation is here: https://livingcomputers.org/Discover/Contribute-Historical-Artifacts.aspx . The more carefully you list the specific issues you have, the more likely they are to accept your offer (assuming they don?t already have the same issues). I?ve donated ACM publications and also various early PC magazines to them, plus a bunch of old MSDN CD-ROMs. Paul > From: Chuck Guzis >> > I wish I would have known.? I joined IEEE Annals at the beginning.? I> eventually dropped my subscription because I found that the inaccuracies> would just make me mad.> > I threw out a bunch of ACM SIGPLAN notices (the local library didn't> want them) from the 1978s.? Still need to get rid of a pile of old CACM> rags as well as IEEE Computer.? I'm staring at a pile of IEEE Micro and> a bunch of PC-related magazines from the 80s-90s (e.g. "DOS Developer's> Journal", which became "Windows/DOS Developer's Journal", which became> "Windows Developer's Journal", which was then thankfully put out of its> misery by merging into Doctor Dobbs').> > I still have a bunch of "PC Tech Journal" and other various periodicals.> > If anyone's looking for something special, let me know.? They'll all be> gone to the recycler by the end of January.> From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 30 15:27:50 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 13:27:50 -0800 Subject: RSTS source tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <792153d7-24f6-87e7-3cb2-0a27c32e136b@bitsavers.org> If you can't get these released, please send images to people that have been entrusted with other sources from the current rights holder, like Johnny Billquist. On 12/30/18 10:59 AM, B M via cctalk wrote: > I believe I have source tapes to RSTS/E version 5 & 6 that I would like to > release copies, but I cannot until I can get official permission. I > acquired the tapes from a person who did some development on early PDP-11's. > > I am checking my binary versions of the RSTS tapes and if they are ok, I > can release RSTS/E V5B and RSTS/E V6B. > > --barrym > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Dec 30 18:44:40 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 19:44:40 -0500 Subject: RSTS source tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 30, 2018, at 1:59 PM, B M via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone know the OFFICIAL status of RSTS/E source? I am aware of the > Mentec license, but it appears to only grant a license to the binary > distribution. > > I believe I have source tapes to RSTS/E version 5 & 6 that I would like to > release copies, but I cannot until I can get official permission. I > acquired the tapes from a person who did some development on early PDP-11's. > > I am checking my binary versions of the RSTS tapes and if they are ok, I > can release RSTS/E V5B and RSTS/E V6B. > > --barrym I thought that the current owner of those rights is no longer Mentec but rather XX2247 LLC. Not sure how to contact them, though. V5B is quite interesting, since it's the first version that was built the way all the later versions were, using the RT11 runtime system. From V4A to V5A, system generation was done using DOS-11. (In V3 and before, as far as I know, there was no Sysgen, you got your software built to order by DEC, probably at least in part using TOPS-10 based cross-assemblers.) paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Dec 30 19:04:06 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 20:04:06 -0500 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <8093EB7B-F760-47CC-AEE6-44581AD8FA1B@comcast.net> > On Dec 29, 2018, at 7:35 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > At 12:05 PM 29/12/2018 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 12/29/18 12:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> Stupid question, but doesn't IEEE CS already have these archived? >> >> of course they are >> >> we are speaking with paper obsessed siverfish lovers here though >> > > Coming from you that's a worrying comment, unless you are joking. > > So Al, just curious, once bitsavers has scanned the manuals and stuff people send them, > what happens to those paper originals? > > Does bit savers return them? Or make them available to others? > Can people sending manuals to bitsavers get a guarantee (if they ask for it) the originals won't be destroyed? I wonder also. I once sent some manuals to Bitsavers, and they duly got scanned. (Thank, Al, they came out well.) I didn't get them back. I don't think I asked for that, in which case it's reasonable enough that Bitsavers didn't go to the extra expense of returning them. It might be helpful to state the policy (or choice, if any) explicitly so people know what to expect. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Dec 30 19:04:57 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 20:04:57 -0500 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <8BA5B65C-7F05-494B-B641-1128057FAEFD@mcjones.org> References: <8BA5B65C-7F05-494B-B641-1128057FAEFD@mcjones.org> Message-ID: <3E031792-1B22-42B9-A4C3-56055E80C598@comcast.net> > On Dec 30, 2018, at 2:37 PM, Paul McJones via cctalk wrote: > > Chuck, > > I?ve found the Living Computers Museum in Seattle is interested in building their collection of paper copies of journals, and will pay for shipping. Yes, but are those documents accessible to others? paul From cym224 at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 19:16:53 2018 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 20:16:53 -0500 Subject: Original AGC restoration / was Re: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? In-Reply-To: <698EF912-98E9-4847-A57D-8997D00A2A69@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <6D6BB573-388D-44F9-975F-838DB982131D@gmail.com> <698EF912-98E9-4847-A57D-8997D00A2A69@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On 30/12/2018, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > >> On Dec 30, 2018, at 12:37 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> What is dox? > > New-era-internet term for illegally gaining access to someone's real world > ?documents" (place of employment, home address, phone numbers, medical > records, family members? info, etc) for harassment, stalking, or worse. > Interesting, as the OED describes dox (n.) as an abbreviation for doxy (2.), which is an abbrevations for orthodoxy. First reference to 1756: T. Amory J. Buncle (1825) III. 19 Orthodox and other dox. N From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Dec 30 19:55:22 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 17:55:22 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <571926F8-060F-4CD4-BF97-9F7FE7BB2ED0@fritzm.org> Hi all, Some here may know I?ve been working on an 11/45 restoration off and on for some time now. My ?45 currently has floating point, KT11-C mem mgmt, 124 kword MS11-L, and an RK11-C with one restored RK05 drive. Last week I decided to see if I could bring up RSTS/E on the machine. I managed to sysgen a minimal V06C system that can run off a single RK05 pack under simh, but when I transfer that image to the real hardware using pdp11gui it does not seem to completely/successfully boot. The ?Option:? boot loader comes up and sub-commands there seem to be working (in particular, the ?HARDWARE? sub command shows correctly detected hardware and options). When booting RSTS/E, after supplying date and time, the idle pattern starts on the front panel (but just the bottom part, on the data lights). When console is in display register mode, it shows an increasing count. Console input is echo?d, but the INIT banner and subsequent prompts are never printed and the read light on the RK05 flickers continuously as if the system is trying to read the same sector over and over. Figured I?d ping here in case this is a known failure mode to folks more familiar with RSTS/E? Also posted over on the vcfed DEC forum. FWIW, the machine is passing all MAINDEC CPU, MMU, FP, KW11, and RK11 diagnostics. Cheers, ?-FritzM. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Dec 30 20:08:07 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 18:08:07 -0800 Subject: xterm Tektronix xp217 for sale In-Reply-To: References: <1022990272.2683.1545235549249@wamui-moana.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <46677efc-8889-4129-24af-603ed9ecdd02@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <736f8141-600f-8b9c-ab97-da639accff90@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Do you have any more details to share about this X terminal? Is it an XP217M or XP217C? How much RAM is in it? What version of the CD/firmware? ? Chris Sent from my iPad > On Dec 29, 2018, at 4:13 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > so, already asked but i haven't yet got a clear answer > I have an xterm Tektronix xp217 for sale > it comes with *everything* you need to use it > - its original PSU, able to operate from 100-to-250V > - its original CD with the firmware (it's required a tftpboot server) > > it's located in Italy > let me know if interested, your offer, and your location in order to > calculate the shipping cost > > (I have discount with UPS) From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Dec 30 20:49:25 2018 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 21:49:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: RSTS source tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <243785629.292579.1546224565333@email.ionos.com> > On December 30, 2018 at 7:44 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On Dec 30, 2018, at 1:59 PM, B M via cctalk wrote: > > > > Does anyone know the OFFICIAL status of RSTS/E source? I am aware of the > > Mentec license, but it appears to only grant a license to the binary > > distribution. > > > > I believe I have source tapes to RSTS/E version 5 & 6 that I would like to > > release copies, but I cannot until I can get official permission. I > > acquired the tapes from a person who did some development on early PDP-11's. > > > > I am checking my binary versions of the RSTS tapes and if they are ok, I > > can release RSTS/E V5B and RSTS/E V6B. > > > > --barrym > > I thought that the current owner of those rights is no longer Mentec but rather XX2247 LLC. Not sure how to contact them, though. No idea if this is the right place, but found this info: https://www.manta.com/c/mhh81qf/xx2247-llc Xx2247 LLC Phone: (719) 495-2548 Name: David T Carroll Job Title: Principal Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise." -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From paul at mcjones.org Sun Dec 30 19:09:02 2018 From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 17:09:02 -0800 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <3E031792-1B22-42B9-A4C3-56055E80C598@comcast.net> References: <8BA5B65C-7F05-494B-B641-1128057FAEFD@mcjones.org> <3E031792-1B22-42B9-A4C3-56055E80C598@comcast.net> Message-ID: I?m sure they are if you travel to Seattle. The ACM has a Digital Library containing essentially everything they published, plus additional material such as the AFIPS conference proceedings (annual and semiannual Joint Computer Conferences), ALGOL Bulletins and more. (Thanks go to Al Kossow for supplying ACM with scans of AFIPS and perhaps more.) > On Dec 30, 2018, at 5:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On Dec 30, 2018, at 2:37 PM, Paul McJones via cctalk wrote: >> >> Chuck, >> >> I?ve found the Living Computers Museum in Seattle is interested in building their collection of paper copies of journals, and will pay for shipping. > > Yes, but are those documents accessible to others? > > paul > > > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 03:10:13 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 03:10:13 -0600 Subject: KIP 2050 image scanner Message-ID: I know of one outside of Chicago that is as is. I might be ab;e to move it a state or two or help out with the arrangements. I know nothing about it, but I can text or email 2 pics. Paul From guykd at optusnet.com.au Mon Dec 31 04:22:15 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 21:22:15 +1100 Subject: KIP 2050 image scanner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181231212215.01132798@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 03:10 AM 31/12/2018 -0600, you wrote: >I know of one outside of Chicago that is as is. I might be ab;e to move it >a state or two or help out with the arrangements. I know nothing about >it, but I can text or email 2 pics. > >Paul User manual: https://www.manualslib.com/download/647954/Kip-2050.html From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 31 07:20:22 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 13:20:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. References: <1922093733.11100597.1546262422032.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1922093733.11100597.1546262422032@mail.yahoo.com> Are these currently online? Ed# Thanks go to Al Kossow for supplying ACM with scans of AFIPS and perhaps more.)> > > From ldkraemer at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 06:20:48 2018 From: ldkraemer at gmail.com (Larry Kraemer) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 06:20:48 -0600 Subject: OCR old software listing Message-ID: I used the libtiff-tools (Debian 8.x - 32 Bit) to extract all 61 .TIF's from the Multipage .tif file. While the .tif's look descent, and RasterVect shows the .tif properties to be Group 4 Fax (1bpp) with 5100 x 6600 pixels - 300 DPI, I can't get tesseract 3.x, TextBridge Classic 2.0, or Irfanview with KADMOS Plugin to OCR any of the .tif files, with descent results. I'd expect an OCR of 85 to 90 % correct conversion to ASCII text. Typically, one of the three above Software packages will do a descent job of OCRing .tif's of such scans. (Most PDF's end up at 72 x 72 DPI, and converting them to 300 DPI, allows them to be properly OCR'd.) If anyone else has had better luck, I'd like to know what your process is. Thanks. Larry From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Dec 31 08:35:53 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:35:53 -0500 Subject: OCR old software listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40864188-cfa6-b448-8b5f-c140c1493f80@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-12-31 7:20 AM, Larry Kraemer via cctalk wrote: > I used the libtiff-tools (Debian 8.x - 32 Bit) to extract all 61 .TIF's > from the > Multipage .tif file. While the .tif's look descent, and RasterVect shows > the > .tif properties to be Group 4 Fax (1bpp) with 5100 x 6600 pixels - 300 DPI, > I can't get tesseract 3.x, TextBridge Classic 2.0, or Irfanview with KADMOS > Plugin to OCR any of the .tif files, with descent results. I'd expect an > OCR > of 85 to 90 % correct conversion to ASCII text. > > Typically, one of the three above Software packages will do a descent job > of OCRing .tif's of such scans. (Most PDF's end up at 72 x 72 DPI, and > converting them to 300 DPI, allows them to be properly OCR'd.) > > If anyone else has had better luck, I'd like to know what your process is. I don't know if OCR software is sensitive to having correct resolution (I've practically zero experience with it), but 300 dpi seems wrong for Mattis' scans. Seems they should be 600 dpi (21.7 cm x 28 cm). --Toby > > Thanks. > > Larry > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 31 11:13:38 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:13:38 -0800 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <1922093733.11100597.1546262422032@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1922093733.11100597.1546262422032.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1922093733.11100597.1546262422032@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/31/18 5:20 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Are these currently online? They are on bitsavers under afips for now The intent/agreement when I gave IEEE my scans was they were to be hosted by CHM, but that hasn't happened yet. They are also the entire volume, IEEE distributes them by paper and left off the front matter. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 31 11:44:34 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:44:34 -0800 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <8093EB7B-F760-47CC-AEE6-44581AD8FA1B@comcast.net> References: <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <8093EB7B-F760-47CC-AEE6-44581AD8FA1B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50d0bc6b-5384-19a9-1cc6-963984a886a1@bitsavers.org> On 12/30/18 5:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > It might be helpful to state the policy (or choice, if any) explicitly so people know what to expect. > I will return documents if requested. Originals may or may not be donated to CHM for archiving, depending on if they are duplicative or are of duplicative scope. I do not archive any paper myself. Currently, I am being asked to reduce my backlog inside of Shustek and am making some hard choices. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 11:46:52 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:46:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: OCR old software listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2018, Larry Kraemer via cctalk wrote: > I used the libtiff-tools (Debian 8.x - 32 Bit) to extract all 61 .TIF's > from the Multipage .tif file. While the .tif's look descent, and > RasterVect shows the .tif properties to be Group 4 Fax (1bpp) with 5100 > x 6600 pixels - 300 DPI, I can't get tesseract 3.x, TextBridge Classic > 2.0, or Irfanview with KADMOS Plugin to OCR any of the .tif files, with > descent results. I'd expect an OCR of 85 to 90 % correct conversion to > ASCII text. Software listings need more accuraacy than that. How many wrong characters does it take for a program not to work? "desCent" isn't good enough. 85 to 90 % correct is a character wrong in every 6 to 10 characters. How many errors is that PER LINE? "But, you can start with that, and just fix the errors, without retyping the rest." Doing it that way is a desCent into madness. BTDT. wore out the T-shirts. A competent typist can retype the whole thing faster than fixing an error in every six to ten characters. Only if there is less than one error for every several hundred characters does "patching it" save time for a competent typist. In general, for a competent typist, the fastest way to reposition the cursor to the next error in the line is to simply hit the keys of the intervening letters. It is NOT to move the cursor with the mouse, then put your hand back on the keys to type a character. Using cursor motion keys is no faster for a competent typist than hitting the keys of the letters toskip over. TIP: display the OCR'ed text that is to be corrected in a font that exaggerates the difference between zero and the letter 'O', and between one and lower case 'l'. There are some programs that will attempt to select those based on context. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 31 14:54:23 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 20:54:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. References: <1147110774.11241889.1546289663738.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1147110774.11241889.1546289663738@mail.yahoo.com> Resolution? of? photos seems? low? however.?? Was? this? a? set? made at an? earlier? time? A? useful? reference? though as? most? ?would? never? be able? to collect up? a set? of these. We? are? thankful? ?for? what? we? have .Ed# SMECC In a message dated 12/31/2018 10:12:47 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 12/31/18 5:20 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Are these currently online? They are on bitsavers under afips for now The intent/agreement when I gave IEEE my scans was they were to be hosted by CHM, but that hasn't happened yet. They are also the entire volume, IEEE distributes them by paper and left off the front matter. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 31 15:54:03 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 16:54:03 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <571926F8-060F-4CD4-BF97-9F7FE7BB2ED0@fritzm.org> References: <571926F8-060F-4CD4-BF97-9F7FE7BB2ED0@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <8FB2AA5F-A8E0-499E-BAF9-13372E29954C@comcast.net> > On Dec 30, 2018, at 8:55 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > Some here may know I?ve been working on an 11/45 restoration off and on for some time now. My ?45 currently has floating point, KT11-C mem mgmt, 124 kword MS11-L, and an RK11-C with one restored RK05 drive. > > Last week I decided to see if I could bring up RSTS/E on the machine. I managed to sysgen a minimal V06C system that can run off a single RK05 pack under simh, but when I transfer that image to the real hardware using pdp11gui it does not seem to completely/successfully boot. > > The ?Option:? boot loader comes up and sub-commands there seem to be working (in particular, the ?HARDWARE? sub command shows correctly detected hardware and options). When booting RSTS/E, after supplying date and time, the idle pattern starts on the front panel (but just the bottom part, on the data lights). When console is in display register mode, it shows an increasing count. Console input is echo?d, but the INIT banner and subsequent prompts are never printed and the read light on the RK05 flickers continuously as if the system is trying to read the same sector over and over. > > Figured I?d ping here in case this is a known failure mode to folks more familiar with RSTS/E? Also posted over on the vcfed DEC forum. FWIW, the machine is passing all MAINDEC CPU, MMU, FP, KW11, and RK11 diagnostics. > > Cheers, > ?-FritzM. The standard idle pattern is in the data lights. I don't remember if the "fancy" pattern appeared in V7.0 or earlier, but in any case it's an undocumented SYSGEN option. In RSTS/E, the display register shows the system error count. That's from I/O errors reported by the various drivers. Do you have a second disk pack? If so, you could use the DSKINT option in INIT to initialize a pack, with pattern tests. That would show what the RSTS disk driver thinks of your RK05. Something else you might try: when you start the system, don't enter line-feed for the quick start, but the START command. That is a more verbose version which will display some additional messages. If anything is getting disabled, it would show there. paul From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Dec 31 16:47:23 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 14:47:23 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <8FB2AA5F-A8E0-499E-BAF9-13372E29954C@comcast.net> References: <571926F8-060F-4CD4-BF97-9F7FE7BB2ED0@fritzm.org> <8FB2AA5F-A8E0-499E-BAF9-13372E29954C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5E8DB088-F905-4897-9B50-98B1691518EF@fritzm.org> > On Dec 31, 2018, at 1:54 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > The standard idle pattern is in the data lights. I don't remember if the "fancy" pattern appeared in V7.0 or earlier, but in any case it's an undocumented SYSGEN option. > > In RSTS/E, the display register shows the system error count. That's from I/O errors reported by the various drivers. > > Do you have a second disk pack? If so, you could use the DSKINT option in INIT to initialize a pack, with pattern tests. That would show what the RSTS disk driver thinks of your RK05. > > Something else you might try: when you start the system, don't enter line-feed for the quick start, but the START command. That is a more verbose version which will display some additional messages. If anything is getting disabled, it would show there. Thanks, Paul ? that?s a bunch of helpful info! I have done some long-form starts, but no complaints are printed to the console. I do have an additional as-yet-untried pack that I got in a recent eBay option. I?ll give it an inspection and if its good to go I?ll give the pattern DSKINT a try. I only have one RK05 drive working at the moment, but I suppose I can swap after issuing ?DS? to the ?Option:? prompt? I?m also gearing up to throw the logic analyzer on the RK11 and see what sector(s) it is trying to read and what error/interrupt signaling may actually be happening. Last, any more info on that fancy light sysgen option, for future reference in case I ever get on to a later version? cheers, --FritzM. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Dec 31 17:32:37 2018 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 23:32:37 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <5E8DB088-F905-4897-9B50-98B1691518EF@fritzm.org> References: <571926F8-060F-4CD4-BF97-9F7FE7BB2ED0@fritzm.org> <8FB2AA5F-A8E0-499E-BAF9-13372E29954C@comcast.net>, <5E8DB088-F905-4897-9B50-98B1691518EF@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Fritz, One thought crossed my mind, probably not an issue, but you never know. You mentioned that you have an RK11-C, *not* RK11-D. There are one or two bits in a register of the RK11 that have a different meaning/function, depending on the controller being a -C or -D. The RK11-C was quickly replaced by the RK11-D, but I guess RSTS would know the difference. Other guys here will be able to give a lot better light on this than me (Paul?) A Healthy 2019! Henk, PD8PDP ________________________________ Van: cctalk namens Fritz Mueller via cctalk Verzonden: Monday, December 31, 2018 11:47:23 PM Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > On Dec 31, 2018, at 1:54 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > The standard idle pattern is in the data lights. I don't remember if the "fancy" pattern appeared in V7.0 or earlier, but in any case it's an undocumented SYSGEN option. > > In RSTS/E, the display register shows the system error count. That's from I/O errors reported by the various drivers. > > Do you have a second disk pack? If so, you could use the DSKINT option in INIT to initialize a pack, with pattern tests. That would show what the RSTS disk driver thinks of your RK05. > > Something else you might try: when you start the system, don't enter line-feed for the quick start, but the START command. That is a more verbose version which will display some additional messages. If anything is getting disabled, it would show there. Thanks, Paul ? that?s a bunch of helpful info! I have done some long-form starts, but no complaints are printed to the console. I do have an additional as-yet-untried pack that I got in a recent eBay option. I?ll give it an inspection and if its good to go I?ll give the pattern DSKINT a try. I only have one RK05 drive working at the moment, but I suppose I can swap after issuing ?DS? to the ?Option:? prompt? I?m also gearing up to throw the logic analyzer on the RK11 and see what sector(s) it is trying to read and what error/interrupt signaling may actually be happening. Last, any more info on that fancy light sysgen option, for future reference in case I ever get on to a later version? cheers, --FritzM. From jim.manley at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 17:33:14 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 16:33:14 -0700 Subject: More old stuff incoming In-Reply-To: <17449fb4-a415-339d-f6db-0131663059e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <4ed98a60-fd56-bccf-abf2-bae24fdbeeff@comcast.net> <17449fb4-a415-339d-f6db-0131663059e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Hi Grant, It can be different stroke for different folks. For many, it's the layout, feel, and sound of the keyboard, joystick, buttons, etc. There is a huge market for early "clicky" keyboards with non-linear actions (keys somewhat resist pressure until a threshold is passed, then they allow full travel) - some are going for thousands of dollars ... each. For others, it's the graphics on a real, honest-to-goodness glass tube TV or monitor, smeary color blocks, bleepy-bloopy sounds, and all. It may make no sense to some people, but crystal-clear digital graphics on an LCD display look nothing like the originals on glass tubes, and yes, we have a couple of 27-inch analog TVs with both VHF and NTSC inputs. A big problem with emulators that attempt to be all things to all games, as was pointed out, is that there are timing issues when not running on native hardware that's not multitasking with a million things being spawned and generating interrupts that the emulator has no way to predict and account for accurately. Many games depended on the predictability of the hardware to perform certain things behind-the-scenes that fail running in emulators. Then, there's the problem of the timing being different from platform to platform with wholly different hardware, OS, and other application interactions. I was the first in the U.S. to receive a Raspberry Pi (March 22, 2012, from the first batch of 10,000) and established one of the first Raspberry Jam enthusiast gatherings in the world, at the Computer History Museum. We've been running the emulators for the Pi, and while they're fine for showing what the games were _like_, they aren't the _same_, and we have all of the original game software and hardware right there to compare. I've gotten hundreds of Pii (as in the plural of octopus is octopi) since then, as they really fulfill the educational mission of the Raspberry Pi Foundation, and they've been given to students where I teach, as well as kids participating in after-school activities. All the Best, Jim On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 9:51 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/21/18 1:07 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > no, emulators will not cut it > > Would you please expand upon that? > > Are you saying that things like a Raspberry Pi running RetroPi (I think > that's the name) don't suffice / satisfy as the real thing that they are > emulating? > > Or are you including things like the new retro consoles that original > vendors are coming out with? (The palm sized SNES from Nintendo comes > to mind.) > > Do you have any idea why these newer things are not cutting it? > > I've also had great success with running '90s era games in DOSBox on > what ever computer happens to be handy. Does that not work at all for > you / your crew? > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 17:38:37 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 18:38:37 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <571926F8-060F-4CD4-BF97-9F7FE7BB2ED0@fritzm.org> <8FB2AA5F-A8E0-499E-BAF9-13372E29954C@comcast.net> <5E8DB088-F905-4897-9B50-98B1691518EF@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 6:32 PM Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > One thought crossed my mind, probably not an issue, but you never know. > > You mentioned that you have an RK11-C, *not* RK11-D. > > There are one or two bits in a register of the RK11 that have a different meaning/function, depending on the controller being a -C or -D. The RK11-C was quickly replaced by the RK11-D, That is good to know. I have only used the RK11-D, but I have an RK11-C in need of cleaning and testing that I've never used. My goal is to eventually reunite it with the PDP-11/20 it came with (sadly, the RK05-F that was part of the set was tossed 35 years ago, but I do have more than one RK05-J, and an abundance of 12-sector packs). -ethan From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Dec 31 17:55:15 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:55:15 -0600 Subject: Original AGC restoration / was Re: Apollo 8 Mission Control printers, or not? In-Reply-To: References: <6D6BB573-388D-44F9-975F-838DB982131D@gmail.com> <698EF912-98E9-4847-A57D-8997D00A2A69@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <80A506EF-27AD-44A6-B89E-28FAB3E60010@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Dec 30, 2018, at 7:16 PM, Nemo wrote: > > On 30/12/2018, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: >> >> New-era-internet term for illegally gaining access to someone's real world >> ?documents" (place of employment, home address, phone numbers, medical >> records, family members? info, etc) for harassment, stalking, or worse. >> > > Interesting, as the OED describes dox (n.) as an abbreviation for doxy (2.), > which is an abbrevations for orthodoxy. First reference to 1756: T. Amory J. > Buncle (1825) III. 19 Orthodox and other dox. Have those guys start a hashtag about it and maybe something will happen. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Dec 31 18:13:06 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 00:13:06 +0000 Subject: OCR old software listing In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Fred is right, OCR is only worth it if the document is in perfect condition. I just finish getting an old 4004 listing working. I made only two mistakes on the 4K of code that were not the fault of the poorness of the listing. Twice I put LDM instead of LD. LDM was the most commonly used. There were still some 15 or so other errors do to the printing. It looked to be done on a ASR33 with poor registration of the print drum. Cs and 0s were often missing the right 1/3. Expecting an OCR to do much would have been a folly. Even though some 85% to 90% could be read properly. It took be about 3 weeks of evenings to make heads or tails of the code. I've finally got it running correctly. If it had been done with an OCR, many cases it would have simply put a C instead of a 0. I'd have had to go through the listing, checking each C to make sure it was right. It is easier in many cases to have analysed what I could see and make a judgement, based on what I could see and the general context as I was typing it in. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:46 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: OCR old software listing On Mon, 31 Dec 2018, Larry Kraemer via cctalk wrote: > I used the libtiff-tools (Debian 8.x - 32 Bit) to extract all 61 .TIF's > from the Multipage .tif file. While the .tif's look descent, and > RasterVect shows the .tif properties to be Group 4 Fax (1bpp) with 5100 > x 6600 pixels - 300 DPI, I can't get tesseract 3.x, TextBridge Classic > 2.0, or Irfanview with KADMOS Plugin to OCR any of the .tif files, with > descent results. I'd expect an OCR of 85 to 90 % correct conversion to > ASCII text. Software listings need more accuraacy than that. How many wrong characters does it take for a program not to work? "desCent" isn't good enough. 85 to 90 % correct is a character wrong in every 6 to 10 characters. How many errors is that PER LINE? "But, you can start with that, and just fix the errors, without retyping the rest." Doing it that way is a desCent into madness. BTDT. wore out the T-shirts. A competent typist can retype the whole thing faster than fixing an error in every six to ten characters. Only if there is less than one error for every several hundred characters does "patching it" save time for a competent typist. In general, for a competent typist, the fastest way to reposition the cursor to the next error in the line is to simply hit the keys of the intervening letters. It is NOT to move the cursor with the mouse, then put your hand back on the keys to type a character. Using cursor motion keys is no faster for a competent typist than hitting the keys of the letters toskip over. TIP: display the OCR'ed text that is to be corrected in a font that exaggerates the difference between zero and the letter 'O', and between one and lower case 'l'. There are some programs that will attempt to select those based on context. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 31 19:15:13 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 20:15:13 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <571926F8-060F-4CD4-BF97-9F7FE7BB2ED0@fritzm.org> <8FB2AA5F-A8E0-499E-BAF9-13372E29954C@comcast.net> <5E8DB088-F905-4897-9B50-98B1691518EF@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <32FE9C37-12D6-40D9-80BC-29FF42395FC9@comcast.net> > On Dec 31, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > > Fritz, > > One thought crossed my mind, probably not an issue, but you never know. > > You mentioned that you have an RK11-C, *not* RK11-D. > > There are one or two bits in a register of the RK11 that have a different meaning/function, depending on the controller being a -C or -D. The RK11-C was quickly replaced by the RK11-D, but I guess RSTS would know the difference. Other guys here will be able to give a lot better light on this than me (Paul?) > > A Healthy 2019! > > Henk, PD8PDP I did not know that. If someone can point me to the description of the differences I should be able to say what RSTS will do with them. If this matters it might be possible to patch the code. Did you specify overlapped seek in SYSGEN? I don't remember if that exists for the RK driver, but if yes, that would control which of two somewhat different drivers is in the system. Come to think of it, if the answer is "yes" it might be worth trying the experiment with "no" -- since INIT seems to work and that uses the non-overlapped drivers. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 31 19:18:25 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 20:18:25 -0500 Subject: OCR old software listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F38E41E-B713-42AA-957B-C0EC6CC66085@comcast.net> > On Dec 31, 2018, at 7:13 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > Fred is right, OCR is only worth it if the document is in perfect condition. I just finish getting an old 4004 listing working. I made only two mistakes on the 4K of code that were not the fault of the poorness of the listing. Twice I put LDM instead of LD. LDM was the most commonly used. I wouldn't put it quite so strongly. OCR even if not perfect can help a lot. You can often OCR + test assembly + proofread faster than retyping, especially since that requires fixing typos and proofreading also. Many OCR errors are caught by the assembler, though not all of them of course. I've done both in an ongoing software preservation project; my conclusion still is to use OCR when it works "well enough". A couple of errors per page is definitely "well enough". The program used matters. I looked at Tesseract a bit but its quality was vastly inferior to commercial products in the examples I tried. I now use Abbyy FineReader, which handles a lot of line printer and typewriter material quite well. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 19:33:09 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:33:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: OCR old software listing In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On the other hand, just for the FUN of it, can you write some software to find and fix (or simply flag) the most common errors? When I had to terminate my publisher, I was s'posed to receive a copy of their customer database. They deleted all delimiters (spaces, commas, periods, and other punctuation), and then printed it out on greenbar with a font that used the same character for zero and letter 'O'; and same character for one, lower case 'l', and upper cse 'I'. Surprisingly, they did NOT use a bad ribbon and printhead! An acquaintance OCR'ed it. They were able to get what they thought was "80 to 90%" from the originals, but not from a xerox copy that visually seemed to be just as good. I spent a little time writing some simple code to parse and fix most of it. Mostly simple context, such as a zero between two letters is likely an 'O', or an 'O' between two numerals is likely a zero. Similarly with one, lower case 'L' and upper case 'I'. Some OCR software now pays attention to context. Five consecutive numerals following two capital letters is likely to be a zip code, and end of the record. USUALLY. Comparison of those digits with the two letters in a zipcode database provided partial confirmation. . . . and so forth . . . Not a practical use of time, but a fun exercise in parsing. Another time, the .SRT file that I found for "Company Man" used upper case 'I' instead of lower case 'L'! (AND had a three minute offset for the start time) Did not take very long to fix. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Tue, 1 Jan 2019, dwight wrote: > Fred is right, OCR is only worth it if the document is in perfect condition. I just finish getting an old 4004 listing working. I made only two mistakes on the 4K of code that were not the fault of the poorness of the listing. Twice I put LDM instead of LD. LDM was the most commonly used. > There were still some 15 or so other errors do to the printing. It looked to be done on a ASR33 with poor registration of the print drum. Cs and 0s were often missing the right 1/3. Expecting an OCR to do much would have been a folly. Even though some 85% to 90% could be read properly. It took be about 3 weeks of evenings to make heads or tails of the code. I've finally got it running correctly. > If it had been done with an OCR, many cases it would have simply put a C instead of a 0. I'd have had to go through the listing, checking each C to make sure it was right. It is easier in many cases to have analysed what I could see and make a judgement, based on what I could see and the general context as I was typing it in. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:46 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: OCR old software listing > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2018, Larry Kraemer via cctalk wrote: >> I used the libtiff-tools (Debian 8.x - 32 Bit) to extract all 61 .TIF's >> from the Multipage .tif file. While the .tif's look descent, and >> RasterVect shows the .tif properties to be Group 4 Fax (1bpp) with 5100 >> x 6600 pixels - 300 DPI, I can't get tesseract 3.x, TextBridge Classic >> 2.0, or Irfanview with KADMOS Plugin to OCR any of the .tif files, with >> descent results. I'd expect an OCR of 85 to 90 % correct conversion to >> ASCII text. > > Software listings need more accuraacy than that. > How many wrong characters does it take for a program not to work? > "desCent" isn't good enough. > > 85 to 90 % correct is a character wrong in every 6 to 10 characters. > How many errors is that PER LINE? > > "But, you can start with that, and just fix the errors, without retyping > the rest." Doing it that way is a desCent into madness. > BTDT. wore out the T-shirts. > > > A competent typist can retype the whole thing faster than fixing an error > in every six to ten characters. > Only if there is less than one error for every several hundred characters > does "patching it" save time for a competent typist. > In general, for a competent typist, the fastest way to reposition the > cursor to the next error in the line is to simply hit the keys of the > intervening letters. > It is NOT to move the cursor with the mouse, then put your hand back on > the keys to type a character. > Using cursor motion keys is no faster for a competent typist than hitting > the keys of the letters toskip over. > > > TIP: display the OCR'ed text that is to be corrected in a font that > exaggerates the difference between zero and the letter 'O', and between > one and lower case 'l'. There are some programs that will attempt to > select those based on context. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Dec 31 19:41:21 2018 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 12:41:21 +1100 Subject: OCR old software listing In-Reply-To: <1F38E41E-B713-42AA-957B-C0EC6CC66085@comcast.net> References: <1F38E41E-B713-42AA-957B-C0EC6CC66085@comcast.net> Message-ID: <009f01d4a173$19535670$4bfa0350$@internode.on.net> I've had a lot of success using Adobe's Clearscan for OCR'ing old stuff. Admittedly it's not perfect but it can improve the quality of an old document a lot. Kevin Parker 0418 815 527 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, 1 January 2019 12:18 PM To: dwight ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: OCR old software listing > On Dec 31, 2018, at 7:13 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > Fred is right, OCR is only worth it if the document is in perfect condition. I just finish getting an old 4004 listing working. I made only two mistakes on the 4K of code that were not the fault of the poorness of the listing. Twice I put LDM instead of LD. LDM was the most commonly used. I wouldn't put it quite so strongly. OCR even if not perfect can help a lot. You can often OCR + test assembly + proofread faster than retyping, especially since that requires fixing typos and proofreading also. Many OCR errors are caught by the assembler, though not all of them of course. I've done both in an ongoing software preservation project; my conclusion still is to use OCR when it works "well enough". A couple of errors per page is definitely "well enough". The program used matters. I looked at Tesseract a bit but its quality was vastly inferior to commercial products in the examples I tried. I now use Abbyy FineReader, which handles a lot of line printer and typewriter material quite well. paul From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Dec 31 22:05:07 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 20:05:07 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <32FE9C37-12D6-40D9-80BC-29FF42395FC9@comcast.net> References: <571926F8-060F-4CD4-BF97-9F7FE7BB2ED0@fritzm.org> <8FB2AA5F-A8E0-499E-BAF9-13372E29954C@comcast.net> <5E8DB088-F905-4897-9B50-98B1691518EF@fritzm.org> <32FE9C37-12D6-40D9-80BC-29FF42395FC9@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 31, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Dec 31, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >> >> There are one or two bits in a register of the RK11 that have a different meaning/function, depending on the controller being a -C or -D. The RK11-C was quickly replaced by the RK11-D, but I guess RSTS would know the difference. Other guys here will be able to give a lot better light on this than me (Paul?) > > I did not know that. If someone can point me to the description of the differences I should be able to say what RSTS will do with them. Oh, I didn?t know that either! > Did you specify overlapped seek in SYSGEN? Yes, I did enable overlapped seek during SYSGEN, and I did just have some trouble with overlapped seeks on my RK11-C (though I repaired that well enough to pass the associated MAINDEC before trying RSTS). I?ll try a non-overlap SYSGEN soon/next -- right now it takes me a little over two hours to image a pack using PDP11GUI and a DL11 at 9600 baud, which is a bit painful. So I?d like to capture some logic analyzer traces off the RK11-C while I have this repro case before I write over my current pack. If there is something still up with my overlapped seeks, I?d like to characterize and fix it anyway. cheers, --FritzM. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 31 22:43:32 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 23:43:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning >> On Dec 31, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >> ... >> There are one or two bits in a register of the RK11 that have a >> different meaning/function, depending on the controller being a -C or >> -D. > If someone can point me to the description of the differences I should > be able to say what RSTS will do with them. AFAIK, the only difference (in programming terms) between the -C and -D is that the -D has dropped the maintainance register. Although I cheerfully admit I haven't sat down with -C and -D manuals and done a bit-by-bit compare. I just did that (I used the "RK11-C Moving Head Disk Drive Controller Manual", DEC-11-HRKA-D, and the 1976 "Peripherals Handbook"), and found in the following: In the RKDS: bit 7 has changed the definition slightly ("Drive Ready" to "R/W/S Ready"), but seems to be basically the same. In the RKCS, bit 9 is "Read/Write All" in the -C, and unused in the -D; bit 12 is "Maint" in the -C, unused in the -D. In other words, a -D driver should work just fine with a -C, IMO. Noel