From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Apr 1 02:40:42 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2018 00:40:42 -0700 Subject: Software for AN/UGC-144 Communications Terminal? Message-ID: <2C47506E-1D50-4182-83F0-BBE26DC14F74@nf6x.net> I posted this originally on the ArmyRadios mailing list, but I think it's just computery enough that it may be of interest here, too. And maybe somebody here even has the answers to my questions! I just got an AN/UGC-144 communications terminal. It looks unused, and it came with cables and manuals (-12 and -30, but not including schematic diagrams or component-level details). It powers up, but fails to boot from its internal hard drive. The screen has some bad rows and columns, and the gas spring that supports the display needs to be replaced. I shared a bunch of pictures on Twitter today as I unpacked it and started playing with it, in this thread: https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/980174491673178112 Here are direct links to some of the more interesting pictures in that long thread: https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/980198067767947264 https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/980202029766230016 https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/980263764325941249 https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/980302909165338624 I haven't found very much about the terminal online yet, and I expect that I have a long road ahead of me as I try to fix the display and see if anything can be recovered from the hard drive. If the original software isn't present on the hard drive and recoverable, then this may be a great big doorstop! But it may also be a fun reverse-engineering project. I haven't dug into it deeply enough yet to determine whether it's built around an embedded PC-clone architecture or is something completely custom. In any case, I'll naturally want to try to dump and disassemble any ROMs I find inside of it. The CAGE code is for Sypris Electronics, and the boot screen shows a Honeywell copyright notice. I found that it tried to access a blank floppy diskette at boot time in the right drive, but I didn't have an MS-DOS boot diskette handy at the moment to see if it could boot from it. I'll give that a try when I have a chance... but probably after Easter. Have any software diskettes, programs, disk images, etc. for this terminal made it out into the wild? I presume that there were boot and installation diskettes that were used for hard drive formatting and software installation, and I would really love to get my hands on anything like that... especially if it turns out the the hard drive in my terminal is blank and/or dead. I'll be satisfied if I can use this rig as a dumb terminal for RTTY use, and even happier if I can do anything fancier with it. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Apr 1 05:43:16 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2018 12:43:16 +0200 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20180401104316.qmlwb7rxulyv3fhv@mooli.org.uk> On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 04:26:44PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: [...] > But that is the old fly in the ointment, other software may not be avilable. > I do run windows and real text screen UNIX is not aviable anymore. All I > know it is same $$$ cycle as always, BUY the new machine > for faster software, but you need buy the software that has bug fixes and > patches for the new system and the software slows down again. > GUI's gave us 8x bloat and streaming media another 8x bloat. Decades of being nickel-and-dimed by the Microsoft ecosystem has taught you that you need to pay for a lot of software. This is far less common on other platforms. I'm watching the MNT Reform with some interest as they're much more user-repairable and -upgradable than typical notebooks, but it's nowhere near ready yet. The small-run prototype is also an eyewatering ?599, so I'll pass on it for now. > It is about time NEW notebook computers to come out to let you use them to > take NOTEs rather than some ap for your phone for notes. I use a fountain pen and some old file cards for that :) > PS: Do I need a VALVE computer for the best sounding digital music? You *could* buy one of those ricer PCs which have a valve amplifier fitted right there on the PCB, nice and close to all those sharp digital signals and noisy ground plane. The target market is hipsters who don't understand electronics. > PPS: Notice how records are selling again. There's a lot of talk from the same hipsters about a vinyl resurgence, but the impressive-sounding percentge issues are against a tiny baselines that's pretty much an accounting error. In absolute rather than relative terms, the only growing market for music is streaming. Spotify is one of those appalling bloated web-wrapper apps I was railing against. I'm sticking with CDs; they'll even play on my old Amiga. From ed at groenenberg.net Sun Apr 1 02:39:18 2018 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2018 09:39:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Instruction video on laserdisk In-Reply-To: <20180331225753.6308F4E740@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <46250.10.10.10.2.1522500367.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <20180331225753.6308F4E740@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <51694.10.10.10.2.1522568358.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Yup, that's the one. I asked him if he had the other disk (part 1 & 2) as well, and he'll have a look. Apparently the disk was in a stack of LP's he bought on a fleamarket, and I guess he may somewhat know the seller of those LP's. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. On Sun, April 1, 2018 00:57, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 07:46 AM 3/31/2018, E. Groenenberg via cctalk wrote: >>Today I received a PDP-11 instruction video on a laser disk, part 3 & 4. >>The disk partno. is EY-5537E-V2-0001, the title says >>'Introduction to the PDP-11, Internal use Only, (c) 1988' > > This one? > > https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/cd-s-en-dvd-s/vinyl-overige/m1261283993-laser-videodisc-introduction-to-the-pdp-11.html?c=3c1f5dcc18d02a99040ca8de656940d2&previousPage=lr > > I have LD player, digitizer, and abilities. Midwest USA. > > IVIS was a DEC Pro 350 system for interactive learning: > > https://books.google.com/books?id=wi8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=%22digital+equipment%22+%22ivis%22&source=bl&ots=k9_3BUKTrJ&sig=lHcIslE5v9hWZ8YxAoWWFxaYnao&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGwpaj1JfaAhUl74MKHcwVAfEQ6AEIOzAC#v=onepage&q=%22digital%20equipment%22%20%22ivis%22&f=false > > - John > > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Apr 1 16:24:08 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2018 17:24:08 -0400 Subject: Instruction video on laserdisk In-Reply-To: <51694.10.10.10.2.1522568358.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <46250.10.10.10.2.1522500367.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <20180331225753.6308F4E740@mx2.ezwind.net> <51694.10.10.10.2.1522568358.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: I am a big collector of laser disks, i have many players and over 300 disks. I would be interested in a copy of the disk for my collection, it would be interesting to have something related to both laserdisks as well as my digital computers. if you are just looking to have it digitized and put online, i would be willing to do that in exchange for the disk. On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 3:39 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Yup, that's the one. > > I asked him if he had the other disk (part 1 & 2) as well, and he'll > have a look. Apparently the disk was in a stack of LP's he bought on > a fleamarket, and I guess he may somewhat know the seller of those > LP's. > > Ed > -- > Ik email, dus ik besta. > > > On Sun, April 1, 2018 00:57, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > At 07:46 AM 3/31/2018, E. Groenenberg via cctalk wrote: > >>Today I received a PDP-11 instruction video on a laser disk, part 3 & 4. > >>The disk partno. is EY-5537E-V2-0001, the title says > >>'Introduction to the PDP-11, Internal use Only, (c) 1988' > > > > This one? > > > > https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/cd-s-en-dvd-s/vinyl-overige/ > m1261283993-laser-videodisc-introduction-to-the-pdp-11.html?c= > 3c1f5dcc18d02a99040ca8de656940d2&previousPage=lr > > > > I have LD player, digitizer, and abilities. Midwest USA. > > > > IVIS was a DEC Pro 350 system for interactive learning: > > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=wi8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA18& > lpg=PA18&dq=%22digital+equipment%22+%22ivis%22& > source=bl&ots=k9_3BUKTrJ&sig=lHcIslE5v9hWZ8YxAoWWFxaYnao&hl=en&sa=X&ved= > 0ahUKEwiGwpaj1JfaAhUl74MKHcwVAfEQ6AEIOzAC#v=onepage&q=% > 22digital%20equipment%22%20%22ivis%22&f=false > > > > - John > > > > > > From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Mon Apr 2 10:50:12 2018 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon - The Computer Doc) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2018 11:50:12 -0400 Subject: PATA hard disks, anyone? In-Reply-To: <1522031568.17667.769.camel@moondog> References: <1522031568.17667.769.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <000001d3ca9a$4b69de00$e23d9a00$@sc.rr.com> I'll take them all please. Let me know the cost of shipping. Thanks. Kip -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy N. via cctalk Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 10:33 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: PATA hard disks, anyone? The new sysadmin at work is clearing out closets full of junk^H^H^H^H cool old stuff accumulated by the previous sysadmin. There's a big carton full of PATA hard disks. Most of them are in the 4.3 GB - 20 GB range, a few larger, a few smaller. Anyone have any use for these? You can have them for the cost of shipping, or free for local pickup in Bothell, WA. They're going to be recycled as scrap if I don't find a home for them. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Apr 2 12:28:45 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2018 13:28:45 -0400 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <0FC74C07-CB89-4E8E-83D9-BBB51C05F06A@comcast.net> > On Mar 31, 2018, at 6:26 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> ... > > But that is the old fly in the ointment, other software may not be avilable. I do run windows and real text screen UNIX is not aviable anymore. Sure it is. You can perfectly well install Linux without the GUI components, never mind other Unix operating systems like NetBSD which are more oriented towards simple low-overhead deployments. And my workstations, while they are GUI based, really only serve as text type Unixes with large scroll buffers. paul From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Apr 2 12:34:43 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2018 13:34:43 -0400 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: <0FC74C07-CB89-4E8E-83D9-BBB51C05F06A@comcast.net> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <0FC74C07-CB89-4E8E-83D9-BBB51C05F06A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 04/02/2018 01:28 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mar 31, 2018, at 6:26 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >>> ... >> But that is the old fly in the ointment, other software may not be avilable. I do run windows and real text screen UNIX is not aviable anymore. > Sure it is. You can perfectly well install Linux without the GUI components, never mind other Unix operating systems like NetBSD which are more oriented towards simple low-overhead deployments. And my workstations, while they are GUI based, really only serve as text type Unixes with large scroll buffers. > > paul > > That and even the Macbook OS-X will take you to a unix terminal.? IT runs all the same commands as my Unix-V6 on pdp11. I'd add the win10/pro has a interface screen that allows a linux/unix terminal interface.? That made the thing usable! Allison From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Mon Apr 2 22:04:00 2018 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2018 20:04:00 -0700 Subject: RL01/RL02 emulator needed -- (was Many thanks to Glen's Vintage Computer Info) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5AC2EF20.5040204@flying-disk.com> Several days ago I wrote about my joy of finding a TDL-12 disk controller, emulating four DEC RL02 drives and using a SCSI drive. Sadly, I discovered that the controller is a dead as a doornail. It doesn't respond to any bus address at all. So, I'm back to my original quest: I need a controller that emulates the DEC RLV11/RLV12 and RL01/RL02 drives. From my Google searching, I see a couple that use SD or similar solid state devices. Does anyone here have any direct experience (good or bad) with any of these emulators? I don't mind spending money for a good solution. Thanks, Alan Frisbie From peter at rittwage.com Tue Apr 3 08:25:20 2018 From: peter at rittwage.com (peter at rittwage.com) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 13:25:20 +0000 Subject: RL01/RL02 emulator needed -- (was Many thanks to Glen's Vintage Computer Info) In-Reply-To: <5AC2EF20.5040204@flying-disk.com> References: <5AC2EF20.5040204@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, You don't want to try to repair the controller? There are some custom IC's on there (it appears) but is largely off-the-shelf TTL... I'm sure someone on the list has a lot of experience with these and could repair it or help. -- Pete Rittwage On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 00:50, Alan Frisbie via cctech wrote: Several days ago I wrote about my joy of finding a TDL-12 disk controller, emulating four DEC RL02 drives and using a SCSI drive. Sadly, I discovered that the controller is a dead as a doornail. It doesn't respond to any bus address at all. So, I'm back to my original quest: I need a controller that emulates the DEC RLV11/RLV12 and RL01/RL02 drives. From my Google searching, I see a couple that use SD or similar solid state devices. Does anyone here have any direct experience (good or bad) with any of these emulators? I don't mind spending money for a good solution. Thanks, Alan Frisbie From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 3 11:01:31 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 09:01:31 -0700 Subject: RL01/RL02 emulator needed -- (was Many thanks to Glen's Vintage Computer Info) In-Reply-To: References: <5AC2EF20.5040204@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: On 4/3/18 6:25 AM, peter--- via cctalk wrote: > Hi Alan, > You don't want to try to repair the controller? There are some custom IC's on there (it appears) but is largely off-the-shelf TTL... I'm sure someone on the list has a lot of experience with these and could repair it or help. Glen comes to mind, and I think he is in SoCal https://sites.google.com/site/glensvintagecomputerinfo/td-systems/tdl-12 From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue Apr 3 15:07:39 2018 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (Ian Frost) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 21:07:39 +0100 Subject: Apple B&W CRT monitor popping and clicking Message-ID: Hi all, Recently booted up my B&W Powermac G3, all came up fine including the 17? CRT monitor. However after a second or so, the monitor gives a ?popping? sound and the image on the screen expands then shrinks. This repeats every few seconds. I?m guessing the monitor is on the way out - but as this is a complete B&W system - I wondered what the likely cause is? Thanks From pb at pbcl.net Tue Apr 3 15:48:11 2018 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 21:48:11 +0100 Subject: Apple B&W CRT monitor popping and clicking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1522788491.2423.2.camel@pbcl.net> On Tue, 2018-04-03 at 21:07 +0100, Ian Frost via cctalk wrote: > > Recently booted up my B&W Powermac G3, all came up fine including the > 17? CRT monitor. However after a second or so, the? > monitor gives a ?popping? sound and the image on the screen expands > then shrinks. This repeats every few seconds. > > I?m guessing the monitor is on the way out - but as this is a > complete B&W system - I wondered what the likely cause is? That sounds like some sort of problem with the EHT supply. If the picture is stable until the first pop and then it expands, that might suggest that the EHT voltage is dropping because of some sort of sudden spark discharge. Does the image also get dimmer/fainter at the same time? Can you see any evidence of arcing inside the monitor when this is happening? ? I guess it's not impossible that slightly-conductive dust might have built up inside the monitor somewhere to the point where the EHT insulation is compromised and it's flashing over. If that's the problem then a bit of a clean-up might be all it takes to fix it. Needless to say, be careful when cleaning around the EHT. Conversely, if the image was to get initially smaller and then suddenly expand with a "pop", that might suggest that the EHT supply regulation has gone wrong and the voltage is going too high. From what you've described though it doesn't sound as though that's what is happening. p. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 3 16:09:57 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 21:09:57 +0000 Subject: Apple B&W CRT monitor popping and clicking In-Reply-To: <1522788491.2423.2.camel@pbcl.net> References: <1522788491.2423.2.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: <9B062052-275D-4CFC-90DF-6641A2FE5449@swri.edu> On Apr 3, 2018, at 3:48 PM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 2018-04-03 at 21:07 +0100, Ian Frost via cctalk wrote: >> >> Recently booted up my B&W Powermac G3, all came up fine including the >> 17? CRT monitor. However after a second or so, the >> monitor gives a ?popping? sound and the image on the screen expands >> then shrinks. This repeats every few seconds. >> >> I?m guessing the monitor is on the way out - but as this is a >> complete B&W system - I wondered what the likely cause is? > That sounds like some sort of problem with the EHT supply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_displays indicates: ?.The Apple Studio Display series of CRT displays were available in a 17" Diamondtron and a 21" Trinitron CRT, both driven by an LG-Manufactured chassis. These displays were notorious for faulty flybacks. ? [ Would that be consistent with the symptoms, and is there a good way to test? - Mark From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 3 19:58:20 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 17:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple B&W CRT monitor popping and clicking In-Reply-To: <9B062052-275D-4CFC-90DF-6641A2FE5449@swri.edu> References: <1522788491.2423.2.camel@pbcl.net> <9B062052-275D-4CFC-90DF-6641A2FE5449@swri.edu> Message-ID: > ?.The Apple Studio Display series of CRT displays were available in a > 17" Diamondtron and a 21" Trinitron CRT, both driven by an > LG-Manufactured chassis. These displays were notorious for faulty > flybacks. ? those are both COLOR, aren't they? Not that it couldn't be flyback, but those two would presumably be unrelated to a B&W CRT. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 3 20:08:58 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 21:08:58 -0400 Subject: Apple B&W CRT monitor popping and clicking In-Reply-To: References: <1522788491.2423.2.camel@pbcl.net> <9B062052-275D-4CFC-90DF-6641A2FE5449@swri.edu> Message-ID: On 2018-04-03 8:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> ?.The Apple Studio Display series of CRT displays were available in a >> 17" Diamondtron and a 21" Trinitron CRT, both driven by an >> LG-Manufactured chassis. These displays were notorious for faulty >> flybacks. ? > > those are both COLOR, aren't they? > > Not that it couldn't be flyback, but those two would presumably be > unrelated to a B&W CRT. > They are colour. In this context, B&W means "blue and white", as in the G3 tower (and monitor) colour scheme. Pinstripy if I recall correctly. --Toby From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Apr 4 04:10:52 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:10:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC 3000 (alpha) faultfinding In-Reply-To: <01QQT1KMS9D40000GP@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01QQORR9WN720000GP@beyondthepale.ie> <01QQPM5MJJLY0000GP@beyondthepale.ie> <01QQQ9W94O940000GP@beyondthepale.ie> <01QQT1KMS9D40000GP@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Mar 2018, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > I ran the various tests provided by the different jumper settings on my second > 3000 600 and I found that the memTest (no-cache) LongWord Memory Test (position > 5, J3) failed as well as the tests involving the cache. In an attempt to find > which memory was failing, I swapped around the memory risers. Bizarrely, the > (no-cache) failures went away completely when I swapped around the front two > risers. The failures returned when I swapped them back. This is very odd as > the two risers appear to be identical and seem to be populated with identical > SIMMs. Have you tried cleaning the pins? The riser connectors are the same style DECstation 5000/200 MS02 memory modules use and I had cases of ECC errors appearing with those which went away once thorougly cleaned with IPA. Lone reseating didn't help. Maciej From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Apr 4 06:14:07 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 12:14:07 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: DEC 3000 (alpha) faultfinding In-Reply-To: References: <01QQORR9WN720000GP@beyondthepale.ie> <01QQPM5MJJLY0000GP@beyondthepale.ie> <01QQQ9W94O940000GP@beyondthepale.ie> <01QQT1KMS9D40000GP@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01QQXZHSGUAI000OOC@beyondthepale.ie> > > > I ran the various tests provided by the different jumper settings on my second > > 3000 600 and I found that the memTest (no-cache) LongWord Memory Test (position > > 5, J3) failed as well as the tests involving the cache. In an attempt to find > > which memory was failing, I swapped around the memory risers. Bizarrely, the > > (no-cache) failures went away completely when I swapped around the front two > > risers. The failures returned when I swapped them back. This is very odd as > > the two risers appear to be identical and seem to be populated with identical > > SIMMs. > > Have you tried cleaning the pins? > > The riser connectors are the same style DECstation 5000/200 MS02 memory > modules use and I had cases of ECC errors appearing with those which went > away once thorougly cleaned with IPA. Lone reseating didn't help. > I did some more experimentation and I found that the failures consistently occurred when a particular riser was installed in one of the rear facing riser slots and consistently did not arise when that riser was installed in one of the front facing slots. I also noticed that the mini console consistently reported: memSize 000000c0.000000c0 when the the failures occurred and consistently reported: memSize 000000a0.000000a0 when they did not occur. The failures could not be provoked when I swapped the suspect riser with one from the other machine. Further swapping of individual simms on the suspect riser narrowed down the cause of the problem to one particular simm on that riser. Unfortunately, after eliminating the faulty simm, the cache faults and occasional machine checks were still present. Going back to the other 3000 600 that does not experience machine checks and putting back it's full set of good memory risers, I am left with just the cache issues to deal with. Unlike the Alphaserver 1000A, there does not appear to be any obvious way of disabling the cache. It appears it could be done if I could write to the ABOX_CTL and BIU_CTL registers. Unfortunately, while this could probably be done with the "dc" mini console command on some other processor models, this command does not seem to be implemented on the 3000. Regards, Peter Coghlan > Maciej > From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Wed Apr 4 11:25:03 2018 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 09:25:03 -0700 Subject: RL01/RL02 emulator needed -- (was Many thanks to Glen's Vintage Computer Info) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5AC4FC5F.40009@flying-disk.com> "peter at rittwage.com" wrote: > You don't want to try to repair the controller? There are some custom > IC's on there (it appears) but is largely off-the-shelf TTL... I'm > sure someone on the list has a lot of experience with these and could > repair it or help. Indeed, I DO want to repair it, but that is a project for another day. Right now I need to solve the need for an RL02 emulator, which will let me quickly solve the current problem. Again, does anyone have any experience (good or bad) with any of the RL02 emulators our there? Thanks, Alan Frisbie From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 12:33:48 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 18:33:48 +0100 Subject: DEC DEREP repeater PSU Message-ID: Hi folks, Has anyone ever replaced the PSU in a DEREP with a more modern equivalent? The PSU is an ASTEC but as usual doesn?t have any markings for ratings or pinouts. I found the tech ref online but for PSU problems it just says ?replace? as I?d expect. Test LEDs on the unit itself (and the fuses) show +5 and +12 at 2A. This one suffered a bad heat-based death at some point after the fan seized? Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 15:13:19 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 15:13:19 -0500 Subject: Apple B&W CRT monitor popping and clicking In-Reply-To: References: <1522788491.2423.2.camel@pbcl.net> <9B062052-275D-4CFC-90DF-6641A2FE5449@swri.edu> Message-ID: <91ce325e-4b02-fbda-2baf-2524f7c203a5@gmail.com> On 04/03/2018 08:08 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > They are colour. In this context, B&W means "blue and white", as in the > G3 tower (and monitor) colour scheme. Pinstripy if I recall correctly. I never thought I'd see B&W in the context of displays mean anything other than black & white, but of course in a discussion about Apple hardware, anything is possible :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 4 15:37:59 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 13:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple B&W CRT monitor popping and clicking In-Reply-To: <91ce325e-4b02-fbda-2baf-2524f7c203a5@gmail.com> References: <1522788491.2423.2.camel@pbcl.net> <9B062052-275D-4CFC-90DF-6641A2FE5449@swri.edu> <91ce325e-4b02-fbda-2baf-2524f7c203a5@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> They are colour. In this context, B&W means "blue and white", as in the >> G3 tower (and monitor) colour scheme. Pinstripy if I recall correctly. > On Wed, 4 Apr 2018, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > I never thought I'd see B&W in the context of displays mean anything other > than black & white, but of course in a discussion about Apple hardware, > anything is possible :-) It is sometimes surprising where terminology becomes ambiguous. At the college, with a few dozen 5150s, we used CGA cards with cheap B&W composite monitors, including some that were marketed for CCTV. THAT permitted us to afford substantially more machines than either IBM CGA color monitors OR IBM "monochrome" card and monitor. That was before the aftermarket reached full saturation. But, when shopping for cheap composite monitors, when you asked about B&W monitors, you would often get told that they had none. because what they had were green or amber phosphor. If you asked for monochrome, then they started in with monitors compatible with the IBM MDP/MDA or Hercules cards. What is the minimum phrase that will unambiguously (or minimum ambiguity) specify B&W (of any color of phosphor) with composite input? YES, the IBM monochrome monitor, or later after-market with Hercules compatible cards, IS a much better image. But, for running a text editor and a compiler, the choice was between 15 computers with CGA color, 20 with IBM monochrome, or 30 with CGA and cheap composite monitor. Our priority was to try to have almost enough machines for the number of students. And contrary to demands from SOME instructors, you do NOT need color to learn to use WordPervert, Lotus, or programming tools. Later, when we were finally using generic 386SX machines, we had an instructor who was teaching a course on Unix, who insisted that all the machines had to have VGA. Again - enough minimal machines for everybody, or half enough machines with fancy preferred hardware? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From useddec at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 00:06:25 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 00:06:25 -0500 Subject: RL01/RL02 emulator needed -- (was Many thanks to Glen's Vintage Computer Info) In-Reply-To: <5AC4FC5F.40009@flying-disk.com> References: <5AC4FC5F.40009@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, I just found an Emulex book that shows the SC02, SC04, and SC12 as supporting DEC RL drives. They show a model "L" for the RL drives. I'm guessing different ROMS. I'm sure DILOG and others companies made them, but I haven't found my DILOG book yet. I know people who have used them, but I cannot vouch for them. Paul On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 11:25 AM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > "peter at rittwage.com" wrote: > > > You don't want to try to repair the controller? There are some custom > > IC's on there (it appears) but is largely off-the-shelf TTL... I'm > > sure someone on the list has a lot of experience with these and could > > repair it or help. > > Indeed, I DO want to repair it, but that is a project for another day. > Right now I need to solve the need for an RL02 emulator, which will let > me quickly solve the current problem. > > Again, does anyone have any experience (good or bad) with any of the > RL02 emulators our there? > > Thanks, > Alan Frisbie > From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 00:52:50 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 22:52:50 -0700 Subject: ISO: Corvus Concept parts Message-ID: I picked up a Corvus Concept CPU unit about a decade ago now, and I've yet to track down any other parts for it. Looking for keyboards, monitors, drives, peripherals software -- anything. If anyone's got any parts, please drop me a line.? Always wanted to see one run... Thanks, Josh From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 5 07:17:10 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 08:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay: Anyone need a DLV11-J? Message-ID: <20180405121710.77B4818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> This is listed under a useless title: https://www.ebay.com/itm/292503681011 But it's (currently) cheap (don't all bid against each other ;-). Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Apr 5 09:16:11 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 14:16:11 +0000 Subject: eBay: Anyone need a DLV11-J? In-Reply-To: <20180405121710.77B4818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180405121710.77B4818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Caution!!? The DSD board has some broken chips and bent pins and all of them look like they spent time in muddy water. bill On 04/05/2018 08:17 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > This is listed under a useless title: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/292503681011 > > But it's (currently) cheap (don't all bid against each other ;-). > > Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 10:31:46 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 11:31:46 -0400 Subject: RL01/RL02 emulator needed -- (was Many thanks to Glen's Vintage Computer Info) In-Reply-To: References: <5AC4FC5F.40009@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 1:06 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > I'm sure DILOG and others companies made them, but I haven't found my DILOG > book yet. DQ614 emulates 1-4 RL02 drives on an ST506/ST412-interface drive (and FWIW, the DQ615 is an RK06/RK07 emulator). There's a page of switch/jumper settings on Bitsavers. -ethan From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 5 11:03:29 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 09:03:29 -0700 Subject: eBay: Anyone need a DLV11-J? -POOR CONDITION In-Reply-To: <20180405121710.77B4818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180405121710.77B4818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 4/5/2018 5:17 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > This is listed under a useless title: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/292503681011 > > But it's (currently) cheap (don't all bid against each other ;-). > > Noel > I bought a Tektronix 4010 interface board from this seller. It's basically destroyed. The boards have been sitting outside for many years and there is a large amount of corrosion, broken chips and capacitors, and most important, the PCB material is delaminating, damaging traces. I would buy them only if there's some very hard to get part you might need. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 5 11:54:27 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 09:54:27 -0700 Subject: ISO: Corvus Concept parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b9fb0ed-e9dc-4bf2-fb69-227dc75bccf8@bitsavers.org> I will be going through my Concepts over the next few months assembling systems to sell. I have a LOT of stuff for these systems. Most of the software has been dumped and is on bitsavers. There is a simulation running in MAME. The software is fairly primitive, they came out just before mice and GUIs took over the world. On 4/4/18 10:52 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > I picked up a Corvus Concept CPU unit about a decade ago now, and I've yet to track down any other parts for it. Looking > for keyboards, monitors, drives, peripherals software -- anything. If anyone's got any parts, please drop me a line.? > Always wanted to see one run... > > Thanks, > > Josh > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 5 11:56:53 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 09:56:53 -0700 Subject: ISO: Corvus Concept parts In-Reply-To: <4b9fb0ed-e9dc-4bf2-fb69-227dc75bccf8@bitsavers.org> References: <4b9fb0ed-e9dc-4bf2-fb69-227dc75bccf8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5f6b658d-a4cd-605e-a811-007f3d39f3ae@bitsavers.org> I also scrapped about a dozen Omnidrives, but kept the controller boards mostly because all of the MFM drives were bad. They are standalone Omninet disk servers On 4/5/18 9:54 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I will be going through my Concepts over the next few months assembling systems to sell. > I have a LOT of stuff for these systems. > Most of the software has been dumped and is on bitsavers. > > There is a simulation running in MAME. > > The software is fairly primitive, they came out just before mice and GUIs took over the world. > > > > On 4/4/18 10:52 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> I picked up a Corvus Concept CPU unit about a decade ago now, and I've yet to track down any other parts for it. Looking >> for keyboards, monitors, drives, peripherals software -- anything. If anyone's got any parts, please drop me a line.? >> Always wanted to see one run... >> >> Thanks, >> >> Josh >> > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 5 12:29:31 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 13:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay: Anyone need a DLV11-J? Message-ID: <20180405172931.64EA818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Gunshannon > Caution!! The DSD board has some broken chips and bent pins and all of > them look like they spent time in muddy water. Thanks for catching that. I looked at it, saw that it was a DLV11-J, which I didn't need, and so didn't look any harder. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 5 19:21:07 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 17:21:07 -0700 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business Message-ID: Last Day is this Sunday http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63045-WeirdStuff-is-going-out-of-buisiness-( since I can't attach a picture here From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 5 19:31:46 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 20:31:46 -0400 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8583E00B-B3B1-4956-9BE1-2EFFA1F6CCF7@comcast.net> I get a message saying I don't have permission to see that picture. paul > On Apr 5, 2018, at 8:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Last Day is this Sunday > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63045-WeirdStuff-is-going-out-of-buisiness-( > > since I can't attach a picture here > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 19:33:13 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 20:33:13 -0400 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 8:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Last Day is this Sunday > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63045-WeirdStuff-is-going-out-of-buisiness-( Bummer. I bought many things from them on my visits to the Bay Area in the 90s. I still have a Weird Stuff poster hanging up in my machine room. RIP. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 19:34:16 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 20:34:16 -0400 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <8583E00B-B3B1-4956-9BE1-2EFFA1F6CCF7@comcast.net> References: <8583E00B-B3B1-4956-9BE1-2EFFA1F6CCF7@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> On Apr 5, 2018, at 8:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 8:31 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63045-WeirdStuff-is-going-out-of-buisiness-( > > I get a message saying I don't have permission to see that picture. You have to be logged into the vcfed.org Forum to see images posted there. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 5 19:35:25 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 17:35:25 -0700 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: <8583E00B-B3B1-4956-9BE1-2EFFA1F6CCF7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <58609caf-bc24-5051-5cd3-81cff021ee43@bitsavers.org> On 4/5/18 5:34 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > You have to be logged into the vcfed.org Forum to see images posted there. forgot about that.. wonder why they do that? From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Apr 5 19:47:16 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 17:47:16 -0700 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <58609caf-bc24-5051-5cd3-81cff021ee43@bitsavers.org> References: <8583E00B-B3B1-4956-9BE1-2EFFA1F6CCF7@comcast.net> <58609caf-bc24-5051-5cd3-81cff021ee43@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Apr 5, 2018, at 5:35 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On 4/5/18 5:34 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> >> You have to be logged into the vcfed.org Forum to see images posted there. > > forgot about that.. > wonder why they do that? That seems to be a common configuration with web forums. Zane From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 5 21:58:10 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 21:58:10 -0500 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5AC6E242.8080202@pico-systems.com> On 04/05/2018 07:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Last Day is this Sunday > > HOLY MOLY! Well, that marks the end on an era! I have a bunch of really interesting test gear from there. Jon From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Apr 5 22:16:35 2018 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 20:16:35 -0700 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not religious, but I consider this a sign of the apocalypse. I've got bags of stuff I've purchase there (including in its old location) that I haven't had time to deal/play with. I'm crushed. On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 5:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Last Day is this Sunday > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63045- > WeirdStuff-is-going-out-of-buisiness-( > > since I can't attach a picture here > > -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 5 23:31:01 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 21:31:01 -0700 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8288ac97-7495-80cb-d90d-509b578b6294@sydex.com> On 04/05/2018 08:16 PM, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > I'm not religious, but I consider this a sign of the apocalypse. > > I've got bags of stuff I've purchase there (including in its old location) > that I haven't had time to deal/play with. It is sad--in the 70s and 80s, the Bay area was rife with surplus places. Many an engineer working for a startup cruised those floors. But how much stuff is actually manufactured in the Santa Clara valley now? I suspect that the bulk of manufacturing is done elsewhere. I went to school in Chicago and can remember the surplus electronics places on South Michigan Avenue. They were probably gone by the mid 70s. So too were the local parts places--you know, the ones with real parts counters. Heck, I still have stuff I purchased at Sunnyvale Electronics. It's a different world now. --Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Apr 5 23:38:35 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 21:38:35 -0700 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <8288ac97-7495-80cb-d90d-509b578b6294@sydex.com> References: <8288ac97-7495-80cb-d90d-509b578b6294@sydex.com> Message-ID: <07D728D0-002A-4430-8DB1-94F845AE520F@avanthar.com> > On Apr 5, 2018, at 9:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/05/2018 08:16 PM, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: >> I'm not religious, but I consider this a sign of the apocalypse. >> >> I've got bags of stuff I've purchase there (including in its old location) >> that I haven't had time to deal/play with. > > It is sad--in the 70s and 80s, the Bay area was rife with surplus > places. Many an engineer working for a startup cruised those floors. > > But how much stuff is actually manufactured in the Santa Clara valley > now? I suspect that the bulk of manufacturing is done elsewhere. > > I went to school in Chicago and can remember the surplus electronics > places on South Michigan Avenue. They were probably gone by the mid 70s. > > So too were the local parts places--you know, the ones with real parts > counters. > > Heck, I still have stuff I purchased at Sunnyvale Electronics. > > It's a different world now. > > --Chuck Here in the Silicon Forest, ?Wacky Willies? has been gone for longer than I care to remember. I don?t know if the ?Tek Country Store? is still around in any form. Even the non-Surplus Electronics Parts places around here are long gone. :-( Zane From ethan at 757.org Fri Apr 6 01:19:51 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 02:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <58609caf-bc24-5051-5cd3-81cff021ee43@bitsavers.org> References: <8583E00B-B3B1-4956-9BE1-2EFFA1F6CCF7@comcast.net> <58609caf-bc24-5051-5cd3-81cff021ee43@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > forgot about that.. > wonder why they do that? Outside linking to images can crush bandwidth, especially if they end up on a popular site. Glad I got to visit the warehouse before it went away. Bummer when things like that go away. Commercial rents are too high. Real estate values are too inflated everywhere. Everything cool is priced out. -- : Ethan O'Toole From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 6 01:39:39 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 08:39:39 +0200 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <8288ac97-7495-80cb-d90d-509b578b6294@sydex.com> References: <8288ac97-7495-80cb-d90d-509b578b6294@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20180406063939.GF9209@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Apr 05, 2018 at 09:31:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > But how much stuff is actually manufactured in the Santa Clara valley > now? I suspect that the bulk of manufacturing is done elsewhere. > A lot in China of course. I have visited the electronics market in Shenzhen. It is pretty amazing. https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/the-essential-guide-to-electronics-in-shenzhen /P From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Apr 6 04:33:32 2018 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 04:33:32 -0500 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180406093332.GB14767@lonesome.com> On Thu, Apr 05, 2018 at 08:16:35PM -0700, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > I'm not religious, but I consider this a sign of the apocalypse. Agreed. I am glad I am far out of driving distance. mcl From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 04:35:30 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 06:35:30 -0300 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <20180406093332.GB14767@lonesome.com> References: <20180406093332.GB14767@lonesome.com> Message-ID: Very sad day :( 2018-04-06 6:33 GMT-03:00 Mark Linimon via cctalk : > On Thu, Apr 05, 2018 at 08:16:35PM -0700, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > > I'm not religious, but I consider this a sign of the apocalypse. > > Agreed. > > I am glad I am far out of driving distance. > > mcl > From bear at typewritten.org Fri Apr 6 01:40:40 2018 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 23:40:40 -0700 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2018, at 5:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > Last Day is this Sunday Sad. )@: Sadder still that my weekend obligations mean I won't be able to make one final pilgrimage. ok bear. -- until further notice From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 07:23:36 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 08:23:36 -0400 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business Message-ID: <5ac766cc.4567810a.453b0.0d20@mx.google.com> Wow. That's unfortunate. Only been in town twice but was definitely part of my scheduled geekdom tour. So any local stores left for that type of thing? Any word on why the closure? I've always seen a lot of folks in the store (well my 2 times) but i don't know how many purchased. null From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Apr 6 09:21:09 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 07:21:09 -0700 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <20180406093332.GB14767@lonesome.com> References: <20180406093332.GB14767@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 6, 2018, at 2:33 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > > I am glad I am far out of driving distance. You are a wise man! I?d love to have seen it, but it?s best I don?t. :-) Zane From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 6 11:54:50 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 16:54:50 +0000 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <07D728D0-002A-4430-8DB1-94F845AE520F@avanthar.com> References: <8288ac97-7495-80cb-d90d-509b578b6294@sydex.com>, <07D728D0-002A-4430-8DB1-94F845AE520F@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Zane, The Country Store is still going, and while you are there check the museum, VintageTek next door. Surplus Gizmos in Hillsboro looks to still be in business: http://www.surplusgizmos.com/ Welcome to SurplusGizmos.com, LLC - We sell the Gizmos ... www.surplusgizmos.com Welcome to the web store of SurplusGizmos.com, LLC. Our retail store is located: 5797 NW Cornelius Pass Road, Hillsboro Oregon, 97124 (503-439-1249) Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Zane Healy via cctalk Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2018 9:38 PM To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: WeirdStuff going out of business > On Apr 5, 2018, at 9:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/05/2018 08:16 PM, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: >> I'm not religious, but I consider this a sign of the apocalypse. >> >> I've got bags of stuff I've purchase there (including in its old location) >> that I haven't had time to deal/play with. > > It is sad--in the 70s and 80s, the Bay area was rife with surplus > places. Many an engineer working for a startup cruised those floors. > > But how much stuff is actually manufactured in the Santa Clara valley > now? I suspect that the bulk of manufacturing is done elsewhere. > > I went to school in Chicago and can remember the surplus electronics > places on South Michigan Avenue. They were probably gone by the mid 70s. > > So too were the local parts places--you know, the ones with real parts > counters. > > Heck, I still have stuff I purchased at Sunnyvale Electronics. > > It's a different world now. > > --Chuck Here in the Silicon Forest, ?Wacky Willies? has been gone for longer than I care to remember. I don?t know if the ?Tek Country Store? is still around in any form. Even the non-Surplus Electronics Parts places around here are long gone. :-( Zane From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 6 12:01:21 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 13:01:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RL01/RL02 emulator needed -- (was Many thanks to Glen's Vintage Computer Info) Message-ID: <20180406170121.687F518C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Alan Frisbie > I need a controller that emulates the DEC RLV11/RLV12 and RL01/RL02 > drives. From my Google searching, I see a couple that use SD or similar > solid state devices. Err, which RLV11/RLV12 emulators are you seeing? I know of several RL02 emulators - Reinhard Heuberger's, and another I can't immediately find my saved info on - (and one crazy project that turned a real RL02 into a USB device :-), but you still need an RLV11/12 controller. Noel From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Apr 6 13:13:29 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 11:13:29 -0700 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: <8288ac97-7495-80cb-d90d-509b578b6294@sydex.com> <07D728D0-002A-4430-8DB1-94F845AE520F@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <2A252CE7-BC78-41F3-A15F-09D167CFA047@avanthar.com> I really need to check out SurplusGizmos. I?ve not been there since they were on the south side of the Highway. I literally grew up going to the Tek Country Store, even now some of the furniture in my house came from there, and a lot of it at my parents did. Still today, one of my prized finds from there is a hand-held IBM Card Punch that is still in the box. It?s sitting about 5 feet from where I am now. :-) I used to have several good places to hunt. Thankfully I don?t any more, as I have more than I know what to do with. I suspect Eco Binary probably sees some classic stuff, but I don?t think they attempt to sell it. They?re a good source for non-Classic stuff. Zane > On Apr 6, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > Zane, > The Country Store is still going, and while you are there check the museum, VintageTek next door. > Surplus Gizmos in Hillsboro looks to still be in business: > http://www.surplusgizmos.com/ > Welcome to SurplusGizmos.com, LLC - We sell the Gizmos ... > www.surplusgizmos.com > Welcome to the web store of SurplusGizmos.com , LLC. Our retail store is located: 5797 NW Cornelius Pass Road, Hillsboro Oregon, 97124 (503-439-1249) > Randy > > > From: cctalk > on behalf of Zane Healy via cctalk > > Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2018 9:38 PM > To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: WeirdStuff going out of business > > > > On Apr 5, 2018, at 9:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 04/05/2018 08:16 PM, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm not religious, but I consider this a sign of the apocalypse. > >> > >> I've got bags of stuff I've purchase there (including in its old location) > >> that I haven't had time to deal/play with. > > > > It is sad--in the 70s and 80s, the Bay area was rife with surplus > > places. Many an engineer working for a startup cruised those floors. > > > > But how much stuff is actually manufactured in the Santa Clara valley > > now? I suspect that the bulk of manufacturing is done elsewhere. > > > > I went to school in Chicago and can remember the surplus electronics > > places on South Michigan Avenue. They were probably gone by the mid 70s. > > > > So too were the local parts places--you know, the ones with real parts > > counters. > > > > Heck, I still have stuff I purchased at Sunnyvale Electronics. > > > > It's a different world now. > > > > --Chuck > > Here in the Silicon Forest, ?Wacky Willies? has been gone for longer than I care to remember. I don?t know if the ?Tek Country Store? is still around in any form. Even the non-Surplus Electronics Parts places around here are long gone. :-( > > Zane From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 6 14:34:04 2018 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 20:34:04 +0100 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: <8288ac97-7495-80cb-d90d-509b578b6294@sydex.com> <07D728D0-002A-4430-8DB1-94F845AE520F@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <0d1ae796-e733-d70c-d8a4-bb63d37daef1@philpem.me.uk> On 06/04/18 17:54, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > Zane, > > The Country Store is still going, and while you are there check the museum, VintageTek next door. > > Surplus Gizmos in Hillsboro looks to still be in business: > > http://www.surplusgizmos.com/ > > Welcome to SurplusGizmos.com, LLC - We sell the Gizmos ... > www.surplusgizmos.com > Welcome to the web store of SurplusGizmos.com, LLC. Our retail store is located: 5797 NW Cornelius Pass Road, Hillsboro Oregon, 97124 (503-439-1249) A bit further afield (Garland, Texas), there's BG Micro - https://www.bgmicro.com/ -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 15:34:09 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 21:34:09 +0100 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <0d1ae796-e733-d70c-d8a4-bb63d37daef1@philpem.me.uk> References: <8288ac97-7495-80cb-d90d-509b578b6294@sydex.com> <07D728D0-002A-4430-8DB1-94F845AE520F@avanthar.com> <0d1ae796-e733-d70c-d8a4-bb63d37daef1@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > On 6 Apr 2018, at 20:34, Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote: > > On 06/04/18 17:54, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: >> Zane, >> >> The Country Store is still going, and while you are there check the museum, VintageTek next door. >> >> Surplus Gizmos in Hillsboro looks to still be in business: >> >> http://www.surplusgizmos.com/ >> >> Welcome to SurplusGizmos.com, LLC - We sell the Gizmos ... >> www.surplusgizmos.com >> Welcome to the web store of SurplusGizmos.com, LLC. Our retail store is located: 5797 NW Cornelius Pass Road, Hillsboro Oregon, 97124 (503-439-1249) > > A bit further afield (Garland, Texas), there's BG Micro - > https://www.bgmicro.com/ Wow, I?d completely forgotten about them. I bought a load of 2114 RAM chips from them in 2001 and still haven?t used them all. Nice to see they still exist and are still selling 2114s :) ? Adrian www.binarydinosaurs.co .uk From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 6 18:32:09 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 16:32:09 -0700 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: <8288ac97-7495-80cb-d90d-509b578b6294@sydex.com> <07D728D0-002A-4430-8DB1-94F845AE520F@avanthar.com> <0d1ae796-e733-d70c-d8a4-bb63d37daef1@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Is Surplus Sales of Nebraska still in the game? https://www.surplussales.com/ Here's a 5-year old list of places that Jeff Duntemann created. https://www.contrapositivediary.com/?p=2726 I remember John Meshna's operation fondly. He had some great stuff. --Chuck From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Apr 6 19:35:28 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 20:35:28 -0400 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <568bc762-16b2-24b5-1010-ea79068acc8a@comcast.net> On 4/5/2018 8:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Last Day is this Sunday > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63045-WeirdStuff-is-going-out-of-buisiness-( > > since I can't attach a picture here > What's going to happen to all the weird stuff? From alan at alanlee.org Fri Apr 6 22:20:10 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 23:20:10 -0400 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2018-04-05 20:21, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Last Day is this Sunday > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63045-WeirdStuff-is-going-out-of-buisiness-( > > since I can't attach a picture here Apparently no one get's the April Fools joke... sad really. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 6 22:46:22 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 23:46:22 -0400 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <568bc762-16b2-24b5-1010-ea79068acc8a@comcast.net> References: <568bc762-16b2-24b5-1010-ea79068acc8a@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5185e69c-57e6-6dec-286c-3cb1dfb061a3@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-04-06 8:35 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 4/5/2018 8:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> Last Day is this Sunday >> >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63045-WeirdStuff-is-going-out-of-buisiness-( >> >> >> since I can't attach a picture here >> > What's going to happen to all the weird stuff? > > You don't really want to know. From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 01:08:30 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2018 01:08:30 -0500 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5ac86062.1c69fb81.c7cf8.a23c@mx.google.com> The post on vcf wasn't on 4/1 but you're saying the picture was from it? Have they done that before? (It does sound sorta familiar). I hope its the joke. Us remote folks can't handle this! ;-) -------- Original message --------From: alan--- via cctalk Date: 4/6/18 10:20 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Al Kossow , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: WeirdStuff going out of business On 2018-04-05 20:21, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Last Day is this Sunday > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63045-WeirdStuff-is-going-out-of-buisiness-( > > since I can't attach a picture here Apparently no one get's the April Fools joke... sad really. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Apr 7 09:29:55 2018 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2018 07:29:55 -0700 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <568bc762-16b2-24b5-1010-ea79068acc8a@comcast.net> References: <568bc762-16b2-24b5-1010-ea79068acc8a@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20180407072955.6af3324e@asrock.bcwi.net> On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 20:35:28 -0400 Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 4/5/2018 8:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Last Day is this Sunday > > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63045-WeirdStuff-is-going-out-of-buisiness-( > > > > since I can't attach a picture here > > > What's going to happen to all the weird stuff? Here's the newsletter Weirdstuff sent to all their subscribers: --------------------------------------------------------------- WeirdStuff Warehouse Newsletter April 6, 2018 To Weirdstuff Customers, Sadly, after 32 years in business, Weirdstuff Warehouse will be closing its doors as of April 9, 2018. If you have been following the real estate news for Sunnyvale you know that Google purchased a large amount of real estate in the area including the building we have been leasing for the past 22 years. We have been asked to vacate the building as soon as possible, and in order to accomplish that task we are selling our inventory and many of our assets to Outback Equipment of Morgan Hill. The transfer of inventory and assets will take place on April 9, 2018; at that time Weirdstuff Warehouse will cease to do business. Even though Weirdstuff is closing we will retain ownership of the Corporation, trademark, and domain names. We hope to handle these entities and wind down the corporation before year end. Many of you have been loyal customers for many years, and we have enjoyed working with you. We thank you for your loyalty and business. For more information, check out our website after Monday, April 9, 2018. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I spent most of yesterday (Friday) hanging out at Weirdstuff. NBC News interviewed WS management and myself about the closing. NBC showed up because of the "trend" of Bay Area tweets about the closure. Needless to say, the WS store was packed with sad faces about the closing. Not one good word about Google, who is buying up all the land they can and wiping out small businesses with disregard. Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sat Apr 7 10:55:58 2018 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2018 15:55:58 +0000 Subject: PDP Programming books for sale UK Message-ID: Please see album: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZztlMFCSoZcy2ZJz1 Looking for ?20 plus postage likely to be less than ?5 UK. Regards Mark From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Sat Apr 7 13:09:26 2018 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2018 11:09:26 -0700 Subject: RL01/RL02 emulator needed -- (was Many thanks to Glen's Vintage Computer Info) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5AC90956.2050304@flying-disk.com> jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: > Err, which RLV11/RLV12 emulators are you seeing? I know of several RL02 > emulators - Reinhard Heuberger's, and another I can't immediately find my > saved info on - (and one crazy project that turned a real RL02 into a USB > device :-), but you still need an RLV11/12 controller. The only ones I can find now are the ones you mention. Yes, I too can't find my notes on the second one, whatever it is/was. I was *sure* that someone had made a Qbus emulator that used SD cards, but I simply can't find any mention of it now. Right now, it looks like Reinhard Heuberger's board is the best bet. I haven't checked with him yet to see if boards or kits are still available. If I could find a working TDL-12 I would jump on it in an instant. All the older ones (Dilog, etc.) appear to use ST-506 type drives, which introduces its own set of problems. Alan Frisbie From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Apr 7 13:24:13 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2018 18:24:13 +0000 Subject: RL01/RL02 emulator needed -- (was Many thanks to Glen's Vintage Computer Info) In-Reply-To: <5AC90956.2050304@flying-disk.com> References: <5AC90956.2050304@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: On 04/07/2018 02:09 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: > >> Err, which RLV11/RLV12 emulators are you seeing? I know of several RL02 >> emulators - Reinhard Heuberger's, and another I can't immediately >> find my >> saved info on - (and one crazy project that turned a real RL02 into a >> USB >> device :-), but you still need an RLV11/12 controller. > > The only ones I can find now are the ones you mention.?? Yes, I too > can't find > my notes on the second one, whatever it is/was.?? I was *sure* that > someone > had made a Qbus emulator that used SD cards, but I simply can't find > any mention > of it now. > > Right now, it looks like Reinhard Heuberger's board is the best bet.?? > I haven't > checked with him yet to see if boards or kits are still available.?? > If I could > find a working TDL-12 I would jump on it in an instant.?? All the > older ones > (Dilog, etc.) appear to use ST-506 type drives, which introduces its > own set of > problems. If anybody has one or two of these aftermarket RL disk emulators that use ST-506's they want to get rid of I would love to have a couple. I still have ST-506's and would love to try these out as I have never seen one in use. bill From cramcram at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 12:53:05 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2018 10:53:05 -0700 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <20180407072955.6af3324e@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <568bc762-16b2-24b5-1010-ea79068acc8a@comcast.net> <20180407072955.6af3324e@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: Looking at Outback's website I don't see them selling old Sun 3 keyboards or outlet strips. Sigh, Marc On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 7:29 AM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 20:35:28 -0400 > Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/5/2018 8:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > Last Day is this Sunday > > > > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63045- > WeirdStuff-is-going-out-of-buisiness-( > > > > > > since I can't attach a picture here > > > > > What's going to happen to all the weird stuff? > > Here's the newsletter Weirdstuff sent to all their subscribers: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > WeirdStuff Warehouse Newsletter > > April 6, 2018 > > To Weirdstuff Customers, > > Sadly, after 32 years in business, Weirdstuff Warehouse will be closing > its doors as of April 9, 2018. If you have been following the real > estate news for Sunnyvale you know that Google purchased a large amount > of real estate in the area including the building we have been leasing > for the past 22 years. We have been asked to vacate the building as > soon as possible, and in order to accomplish that task we are selling > our inventory and many of our assets to Outback Equipment of Morgan > Hill. The transfer of inventory and assets will take place on April 9, > 2018; at that time Weirdstuff Warehouse will cease to do business. > > Even though Weirdstuff is closing we will retain ownership of the > Corporation, trademark, and domain names. We hope to handle these > entities and wind down the corporation before year end. > > Many of you have been loyal customers for many years, and we have > enjoyed working with you. We thank you for your loyalty and business. > > For more information, check out our website after Monday, April 9, 2018. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ----------------------- > > I spent most of yesterday (Friday) hanging out at Weirdstuff. NBC News > interviewed WS management and myself about the closing. NBC showed up > because of the "trend" of Bay Area tweets about the closure. Needless > to say, the WS store was packed with sad faces about the closing. Not > one good word about Google, who is buying up all the land they can and > wiping out small businesses with disregard. > > Lyle > -- > 73 AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sat Apr 7 14:40:58 2018 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2018 20:40:58 +0100 Subject: 8080/8085 Programming books available UK/EU Message-ID: <005901d3cea8$5abb7aa0$10326fe0$@wickensonline.co.uk> A few seminal 8085 programming books available please see album: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Rv7vy9eDrMfGK9gz2 Looking for ?25 including postage to the UK or ?20 plus postage elsewhere. Regards Mark From mark.darvill at mac.com Sat Apr 7 14:58:18 2018 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2018 20:58:18 +0100 Subject: 8080/8085 Programming books available UK/EU In-Reply-To: <005901d3cea8$5abb7aa0$10326fe0$@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <005901d3cea8$5abb7aa0$10326fe0$@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Mark, I will take those if that is ok. I live in the uk. Mark Sent from my iPhone > On 7 Apr 2018, at 20:40, Mark Wickens via cctalk wrote: > > A few seminal 8085 programming books available please see album: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Rv7vy9eDrMfGK9gz2 > > > > Looking for ?25 including postage to the UK or ?20 plus postage elsewhere. > > > > Regards Mark > From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 14:01:23 2018 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2018 21:01:23 +0200 Subject: PDP Programming books for sale UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Mark, I sent you an email some hours ago about the books, not sure if it got lost in spam... I would buy them all. Thanks Andrea From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Apr 7 19:36:35 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 00:36:35 +0000 Subject: P112 Message-ID: It's not really Classic Hardware, but it does run some pretty classic OSes.? Anybody here working with the P112?? I have had a couple for ages but never had time to play with them.? I see them now as a possible way to manipulate floppies (including 8") from classic systems so I decided to give it a try.? Problem is, it won't boot anything.? Not the disk that came with it and none of the images I got off the web. Anybody here know anything about them? bill From ethan at 757.org Sat Apr 7 23:18:37 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 00:18:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SGI Indigo Power Supply Pinout? Message-ID: Howdy, Working on fixing an old SGI Indigo of mine in prep for VCF East. The issue is once any sort of IRIX kernel is running, it craps out WARNING: Power Failure Detected at a high rate. The SGI Indigo and a few other similar models could push out that error on the local console and perhaps network inbetween the time that AC power was lost going into the power supply and the power supply had discharged enough for system to die. Pretty impressive and strange! I was amazed when I first noticed it, of course now it has come back to haunt me. I have replaced some of the electrolytic caps in the power supply. But in the spirit of troubleshooting, does anyone have any sort of schematics or documentation on the power supply, or the midplane? This is a R4000 Indigo and has the higher output power supply to support bigger CPU and graphics. In the meantime I'm working to document what I can about the power connector and will publish, but I can only get so far without other insight. Thanks -- : Ethan O'Toole From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 7 23:32:30 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2018 22:32:30 -0600 Subject: WeirdStuff going out of business In-Reply-To: <568bc762-16b2-24b5-1010-ea79068acc8a@comcast.net> References: <568bc762-16b2-24b5-1010-ea79068acc8a@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 4/6/2018 6:35 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 4/5/2018 8:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> Last Day is this Sunday >> >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63045-WeirdStuff-is-going-out-of-buisiness-( >> >> >> since I can't attach a picture here >> > What's going to happen to all the weird stuff? > It will magicly blend back into the state ... When you think about it, there has not been much new weird stuff since the 1980's. I am testing a 20 bit cpu (2901 design) in a DE1 FPGA development system, and plan to use real hardware later this year but that is only 1 new weird item for 2018. Ben. PS: Most of my development work had been fucked up by windows, several files had been secretly rolled back when it felt needed to install new drivers, could not find them, crash and restore the old crap, but only after a bootup. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 23:58:49 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 00:58:49 -0400 Subject: SGI Indigo Power Supply Pinout? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I Have an indigo that has not gotten much use aside from when i first picked it up. It has the bigger power supply as well and is maxed out on memory. As a last resort, I could sell you my machine. It boots, I had rigged a peice of jumper wire to the battery to overcome a flat battery, i did not want to attempt desoldering the battery on board. I have been focusing less on the smaller workstations like the indigo and octane and have been using my onyx and crimson, so I am looking to get rid of the smaller workstations. On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > > Howdy, > > Working on fixing an old SGI Indigo of mine in prep for VCF East. > > The issue is once any sort of IRIX kernel is running, it craps out > WARNING: Power Failure Detected at a high rate. > > The SGI Indigo and a few other similar models could push out that error > on the local console and perhaps network inbetween the time that AC power > was lost going into the power supply and the power supply had discharged > enough for system to die. Pretty impressive and strange! I was amazed when > I first noticed it, of course now it has come back to haunt me. > > I have replaced some of the electrolytic caps in the power supply. > > But in the spirit of troubleshooting, does anyone have any sort of > schematics or documentation on the power supply, or the midplane? > > This is a R4000 Indigo and has the higher output power supply to support > bigger CPU and graphics. > > In the meantime I'm working to document what I can about the power > connector and will publish, but I can only get so far without other insight. > > Thanks > > > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > > From tingox at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 05:12:35 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 12:12:35 +0200 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a P112 (bought as a kit) which I have assembled and plyed with a bit. Your description doesn't mention it, so we need more details: - did you build the P112 yourself, or did it come pre-assembled? - has it been working before? Or is this your first time trying it? - which version of the ROM does it have? - what are you trying to boot from, floppy or IDE? Hope this helps a little. On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 2:36 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > It's not really Classic Hardware, but it does run some pretty classic > > OSes. Anybody here working with the P112? I have had a couple for > > ages but never had time to play with them. I see them now as a > > possible way to manipulate floppies (including 8") from classic systems > > so I decided to give it a try. Problem is, it won't boot anything. Not the > > disk that came with it and none of the images I got off the web. > > > Anybody here know anything about them? > > > bill > > -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Apr 8 08:37:49 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 13:37:49 +0000 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/08/2018 06:12 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > I have a P112 (bought as a kit) which I have assembled and plyed with a bit. > Your description doesn't mention it, so we need more details: > - did you build the P112 yourself, or did it come pre-assembled? Bought it assembled and tested. > - has it been working before? Or is this your first time trying it? First time I have tried it. > - which version of the ROM does it have? ROM v5.7? dated 1 Oct. 2014 > - what are you trying to boot from, floppy or IDE? Floppy now, eventually it will be IDE. > > Hope this helps a little. It's a start.? Too cold to go outside again so I guess I get to play with it more today. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Apr 8 09:37:34 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 14:37:34 +0000 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some more data points. I have tried four different floppy cables and 6 different floppy drives (different brands, as well). I? had one combination where it actually booted the P112/GIDE floppy.? Got sector read errors.? But wait, it gets better.? I rebooted about a half dozen times.? The errors move.? Never the same sectors twice.? What the system does depends on which sectors fail to read. None of the disks created with winrawwrite work.? I am going to assume at this point that USB floppies can not be used to build these images.? I have a dos box with a real floppy interface but moving stuff to it is not easy. (time to fire up Kermit again!!) In most cases I get "unrecognizable disk format" or "error reading boot track(s)" followed by "unrecognizable disk format". I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the floppy can actually make a difference. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Apr 8 10:37:15 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 15:37:15 +0000 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Success!!!?? Up to a point. I have it booting on a floppy.? I have confirmed that you can, apparently, not make disk images with an external USB Floppy drive. I am going to go back now and retest a bunch of the floppy drives and cables to see if there really is a problem or if it was just the images.? Of course, this means my original floppy is bad so I need to find another copy as I think the stuff I need to use the GIDE was on there.? I read somewhere that there is a copy on the CD.? I wonder where that might be?? :-) In case anyone is interested, I have a handful of floppy emulators that use USB sticks.? Gonna give them a try, too.? What they work with seems to be a real crapshoot. Oh yeah, once I have the hard disk working it will be time to try 8" disks, too. All t his could be real fun. bill From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Apr 8 11:51:09 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 17:51:09 +0100 Subject: SGI Indy power supply: identify this diode? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7298f806-6d02-c5f0-6a4f-6f1b9391cd62@dunnington.plus.com> On 26/03/2018 17:07, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > Except it's not a zener, or at least not anything like those [ones > Camiel and Bob suggested]. I took one out of another (working) > supply, and I can tell it has a forward voltage of 0.2V, so it's > presumably a Schottky diode of some sort. I can also tell it's not a > low-voltage zener; the reverse breakdown voltage is more than 35V > (the highest my bench supply goes up to). So I dug out my Avo 8, set to the 50?A range, hooked a matching diode from another Indy PSU up to a 300VDC supply via a couple of 1Mohm resistors and a 2Mohm pot as a voltage divider. I found that as I wound the pot up from zero volts, the reverse leakage current rose abruptly from 2-3?A to a few tens of ?A at about 59V across the diode, and the voltage across it dropped a little as I wound the pot up further. So I think it's a Schottky rectifier diode, with a PIV rating probably between 50V and 60V. Of course I have no idea what the current rating might be, and I can't think of a simple safe way to work that out. Any comments? -- Pete Pete Turnbull From drb at msu.edu Sun Apr 8 12:02:15 2018 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 13:02:15 -0400 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 08 Apr 2018 15:37:15 -0000.) References: Message-ID: <20180408170215.3B25EA58618@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I am going to go back now and retest a bunch of the floppy drives and > cables to see if there really is a problem or if it was just the > images. Of course, this means my original floppy is bad so I need to > find another copy as I think the stuff I need to use the GIDE was on > there. I read somewhere that there is a copy on the CD. I wonder > where that might be? :-) The random failure thing makes me wonder about some floppy timing parameter being just-almost too short. Does either of these sites have any of what you need in terms of software? http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?downloads http://stack180.com/P112%20Downloads.htm De From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Apr 8 12:11:09 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 17:11:09 +0000 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: <20180408170215.3B25EA58618@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20180408170215.3B25EA58618@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 04/08/2018 01:02 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > I am going to go back now and retest a bunch of the floppy drives and > > cables to see if there really is a problem or if it was just the > > images. Of course, this means my original floppy is bad so I need to > > find another copy as I think the stuff I need to use the GIDE was on > > there. I read somewhere that there is a copy on the CD. I wonder > > where that might be? :-) > > The random failure thing makes me wonder about some floppy timing > parameter being just-almost too short. > > Does either of these sites have any of what you need in terms of > software? > > http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?downloads > http://stack180.com/P112%20Downloads.htm Got both of them. Anybody have any step by step instructions for intalling OSes to an IDE on the GIDE?? I see one about partitioning but not sure how one gets the FDISK utility onto a bootable P112 floppy. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 8 12:34:56 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 10:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the > floppy can actually make a difference. A minor point, . . . On 5150/5160/5170, the SECOND drive is a straight cable, FIRST drive is crossed. Thus, drive A: is at the end of the cable, B: is in the middle of the cable. The P112 manual https://661.org/p112/files/p112-doc.pdf Page 10 calls for the reverse, with FIRST drive before the twist, SECOND drive after the twist. IF that is correct, then your first drie is straight through. That also means that an unkeyed cable can be reversed, as one more to try. Termination is rarely an issue with 3.5 inch drives, and not usually the problem with 5.25". 5.25" has explicit provision for termination, but wrong termination usually results in slightly less reliability, not often a total failure to read. I did not see any mention of the disk format. If it is 512 bytes per sector MFM, with sequential sector numbering, then even USB drives should work for making disks. A different sector size, or even numbering sectors from 0, would be problematic for some USB drives. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Apr 8 12:52:41 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 17:52:41 +0000 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/08/2018 01:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the >> floppy can actually make a difference. > > A minor point, . . . > On 5150/5160/5170, the SECOND drive is a straight cable, FIRST drive > is crossed.? Thus, drive A: is at the end of the cable, B: is in the > middle of the cable. Yeah, knew that from other systems.? IBM really screwed that up. Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select themselves. > > The P112 manual > https://661.org/p112/files/p112-doc.pdf?? Page 10 > calls for the reverse, with FIRST drive before the twist, SECOND drive > after the twist. > IF that is correct, then your first drie is straight through. That > also means that an unkeyed cable can be reversed, as one more to try. Reversed cable will result in the drive being active constantly. Easily noted by the LED being on constant and the drive running. > > > Termination is rarely an issue with 3.5 inch drives, and not usually > the problem with 5.25".?? 5.25" has explicit provision for > termination, but wrong termination usually results in slightly less > reliability, not often a total failure to read. Just using 3.5" at the moment. > > > I did not see any mention of the disk format. > If it is 512 bytes per sector MFM, with sequential sector numbering,? > then even USB drives should work for making disks. > A different sector size, or even numbering sectors from 0, would be > problematic for some USB drives. I have no idea of the format.? I got the images and rawrite.exe and told the computer to make them.? They were unusable when I used a USB External floppy but worked fine when I used a real internal floppy. I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading and writing weird formats.? But that is coming. As a side note, I did get the system to boot and run from my floppy emulator with a USB stick.? Have to boot twice.? First time you get the unrecognized format error second time boots fine.? Interesting. Good to know for when I am testing on other systems as well. Small steps, but advancing, just the same. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 8 13:11:32 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 11:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>> I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the >>> floppy can actually make a difference. >> A minor point, . . . >> On 5150/5160/5170, the SECOND drive is a straight cable, FIRST drive >> is crossed.? Thus, drive A: is at the end of the cable, B: is in the >> middle of the cable. On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Yeah, knew that from other systems.? IBM really screwed that up. > Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select > themselves. Yep! IBM didn't think that users could be trusted to get that right. Or at least Computerland couldn't be trusted to get it right. Radio Shack used a different approach to drive select by cable instead of making use of the well documented drive select on the drive. Radio shack jumpered all drive selects on on the drive, and pulled pins in the cable. As opposed to IBM jumpering both drives as B: and twisting the cable for A: (which also provided different control of motor) >> IF that is correct, then your first drie is straight through. That >> also means that an unkeyed cable can be reversed, as one more to try. > Reversed cable will result in the drive being active constantly. > Easily noted by the LED being on constant and the drive running. I meant reversing BOTH ends, end for end, giving same wiring. in case some lines of the cable are flaky. >> I did not see any mention of the disk format. >> If it is 512 bytes per sector MFM, with sequential sector numbering,? >> then even USB drives should work for making disks. >> A different sector size, or even numbering sectors from 0, would be >> problematic for some USB drives. > > I have no idea of the format.? I got the images and rawrite.exe and > told the computer to make them.? They were unusable when I used > a USB External floppy but worked fine when I used a real internal > floppy. Since they mimiced the 5150 cabling, I was hoping that maybe they had made the format similar, or at least the same physical format. There are more efficient physical formats (using 1024 bytes per sector easily gives you 400k/800K instead of 360K/720K) > I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading > and writing weird formats.? But that is coming. Should be fun. Is the FDC a 765 variant? or a WD 179x variant? > As a side note, I did get the system to boot and run from my floppy > emulator with a USB stick.? Have to boot twice.? First time you get > the unrecognized format error second time boots fine.? Interesting. > Good to know for when I am testing on other systems as well. > Small steps, but advancing, just the same. Good luck! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From drb at msu.edu Sun Apr 8 14:10:33 2018 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 15:10:33 -0400 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 08 Apr 2018 17:11:09 -0000.) References: <20180408170215.3B25EA58618@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20180408191033.927DEA58618@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I see one about partitioning but not sure how one gets the FDISK > utility onto a bootable P112 floppy. The cpmtools has a diskdef for the p112 formats. One could therefore copy from images to actual floppies, assuming the needed hardware can be coaxed into connectivity with a supported os. (Windows and Linux, at least, are supported.) De From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Apr 8 15:11:58 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 20:11:58 +0000 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/08/2018 02:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to >>>> the >>>> floppy can actually make a difference. >>> A minor point, . . . >>> On 5150/5160/5170, the SECOND drive is a straight cable, FIRST drive >>> is crossed.? Thus, drive A: is at the end of the cable, B: is in the >>> middle of the cable. > > On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Yeah, knew that from other systems.? IBM really screwed that up. >> Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select >> themselves. > > Yep! > IBM didn't think that users could be trusted to get that right. > Or at least Computerland couldn't be trusted to get it right. > > Radio Shack used a different approach to drive select by cable instead > of making use of the well documented drive select on the drive. > Radio shack jumpered all drive selects on on the drive, and pulled > pins in the cable. Or, as in the case of some of the 1000 series (I had a TX my father an SL) punch holes in the cable to break the connection. > As opposed to IBM jumpering both drives as B: and twisting the cable > for A: (which also provided different control of motor) Which also limited you to two drives. > > >>> IF that is correct, then your first drie is straight through. That >>> also means that an unkeyed cable can be reversed, as one more to try. >> Reversed cable will result in the drive being active constantly. >> Easily noted by the LED being on constant and the drive running. > > I meant reversing BOTH ends, end for end, giving same wiring. > in case some lines of the cable are flaky. Too many different cable for that to be likely. > >>> I did not see any mention of the disk format. >>> If it is 512 bytes per sector MFM, with sequential sector numbering, >>> then even USB drives should work for making disks. >>> A different sector size, or even numbering sectors from 0, would be >>> problematic for some USB drives. >> >> I have no idea of the format.? I got the images and rawrite.exe and >> told the computer to make them.? They were unusable when I used >> a USB External floppy but worked fine when I used a real internal >> floppy. > > Since they mimiced the 5150 cabling, I was hoping that maybe they had > made the format similar, or at least the same physical format. > There are more efficient physical formats (using 1024 bytes per sector > easily gives you 400k/800K instead of 360K/720K) > > >> I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading >> and writing weird formats.? But that is coming. > > Should be fun. > Is the FDC a 765 variant? > or a WD 179x variant? SMC 37C651.? Supports? 500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates. Something else we lost with the PC. > > >> As a side note, I did get the system to boot and run from my floppy >> emulator with a USB stick.? Have to boot twice.? First time you get >> the unrecognized format error second time boots fine. Interesting. >> Good to know for when I am testing on other systems as well. >> Small steps, but advancing, just the same. > > Good luck! Thanks. bill From cruff at ruffspot.net Sun Apr 8 12:31:25 2018 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 11:31:25 -0600 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a operational P112 with 3.5" floppies, GIDE/CF and CD-ROM. Do you know which ROM you have installed? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 16:01:34 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 17:01:34 -0400 Subject: Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?) Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > SN-921 > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_front.jpg > > DANAHER CONTROLS Dials DLS80-1022 > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_front.jpg >>>> https://github.com/hanshuebner/sgi-dialbox-usb/blob/master/dialbox.py > > I'm going to test this code out when I have a dialbox in hand. I have now tried this and am not having success. I have a traffic light on the serial cable and I know I'm getting chars out of the host and that I don't have TxD and RxD swapped. I'm not seeing any responses from the dial box and the python script does all the initialization and just sits there. Frobbing the knobs produces no blinks on the traffic light and no text from the script. So... I'm digging deeper and I've found two references to some code from around 2002 that can interact with dialboxes, but the sites are no longer up and the internet archive did not save the binary archive files. I'm asking here in the hope that someone saved copies 10+ years ago when these files were still being served... In the following thread on the ccp4bb list, there is a mention of these archives... [ in http://www.ysbl.york.ac.uk/ccp4bb/2003/msg00204.html ] "I'm using SGI dialbox (Part# DLS80-1022) with XFree86 4.0.x under linux, with modified version of the Joe Krahn's dialbox driver. You can get the modified version from http://www.biochem.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~ishitani/dialbox/dialbox-new.tar.gz and the original version from http://www.geocities.com/joekrahn/ " So I'm looking for: dialbox-new.tar.gz dialbox.tgz dials.c Apparently Joe Krahn hasn't done much with Open Source in 15 years because looking for him has not been fruitful. Thanks for any bits! -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 16:48:22 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 14:48:22 -0700 Subject: Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> SN-921 >> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_front.jpg >> >> DANAHER CONTROLS Dials DLS80-1022 >> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_front.jpg > >>>>> https://github.com/hanshuebner/sgi-dialbox-usb/blob/master/dialbox.py >> >> I'm going to test this code out when I have a dialbox in hand. > > I have now tried this and am not having success. I have a traffic > light on the serial cable and I know I'm getting chars out of the host > and that I don't have TxD and RxD swapped. I'm not seeing any > responses from the dial box and the python script does all the > initialization and just sits there. Frobbing the knobs produces no > blinks on the traffic light and no text from the script. What version of the dial box do you have? I have an HP A4362A dial box which looks identical to the pictures of the DLS80-1022 dial box. I just hooked up the HP A4362A dial box to a PC serial port with the Y-cable and the +5,+12,-12 AC adapter and I get 9600,N,8,1 dial rotation data from the dial box as soon as it is powered on without needing to send any commands to the dial box first. It appears that the data format is three bytes per dial rotation report. The first byte is the dial number, 0x80 through 0x87. The next two bytes are the twos-complement rotation count, MSB first, counter-clockwise negative, clockwise positive. From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 16:52:49 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 17:52:49 -0400 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/08/2018 04:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/08/2018 02:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Radio Shack used a different approach to drive select by cable instead > of making use of the well documented drive select on the drive. > Radio shack jumpered all drive selects on on the drive, and pulled > pins in the cable. > OR used a straight cable and people used the drive select. >>> I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading >>> and writing weird formats.? But that is coming. >> Should be fun. >> Is the FDC a 765 variant? >> or a WD 179x variant? > SMC 37C651.? Supports? 500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates. > Something else we lost with the PC. The 37C651 is 765 variant,? so any PC should be able to create a compatible disk. Least for my CP/M systems its never been an issue.? considering I'e used 8/5.25/3.5 drives on the same boxes it should not be a big deal. Some notes:? The 37C651 and its kin all have minimal drive so long cables are out as they pick up noise.? Keep the cable away from monitor (crt based) and any switching power supplies.? Use a separate ground wire from the drive frame to the board ground. The IDE interface same deal, short cable only and one drive.? CF works. When making a disk first ERASE IT using a degausser then format and copy to it. Also make sure the drives are the same TPI, your trying to make life easier. I've had the best luck with older PC 5.25 like Toshiba and Teac.? For 3.5 Sony and Toshiba are the go to but if all else use the same drive to write it and read (that means moving it). One last detail make sure all the voltages (+5, +12,-12) are good and clean. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 18:56:16 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 19:56:16 -0400 Subject: Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 5:48 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk > wrote: >> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> SN-921 >>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_front.jpg >>> >>> DANAHER CONTROLS Dials DLS80-1022 >>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_front.jpg >> > What version of the dial box do you have? I have an HP A4362A dial box > which looks identical to the pictures of the DLS80-1022 dial box. I have one DLS80-1022 and one SN-921, both badged for SGI. Because I did not get the serial/power Y-cable with the DLS80-1022, I started working on the SN-921 because it just takes +5V on either the serial cable or a 2.1mm jack and was shipped with a +5V PSU for it and I just had to pass RxD, TxD and GND back from it. I have not put together a triple-voltage supply and custom cable for the DLS80-1022 yet, but that may be in my near future. I do have the necessary tools to trace out and monitor the comm circuit on each dial box. > I just hooked up the HP A4362A dial box to a PC serial port with the > Y-cable and the +5,+12,-12 AC adapter and I get 9600,N,8,1 dial > rotation data from the dial box as soon as it is powered on without > needing to send any commands to the dial box first. OK then! My SN-921 is definitely *not* talking. I will crack it open and check the upstream of the RS-232 chip and see if the MCU is generating traffic. I'm entirely willing to believe the weak link is either the onboard boost converter for +/-9VDC for comms or the converter chip itself (not a 1488/1489 pair). It's also possible I have a dead unit, but there's more investigation to do. > It appears that the data format is three bytes per dial rotation > report. The first byte is the dial number, 0x80 through 0x87. The next > two bytes are the twos-complement rotation count, MSB first, > counter-clockwise negative, clockwise positive. Very handy to know. I was looking over the Python code and it seems that there are a number of modes where the host sends some bytes to modify the behavior of the dialbox before setting up an event handler to catch bytes sent from the dialbox but I hadn't figured out exactly what was happening at a bytes-exchanged level. Your explanation is entirely clear. What I _think_ I'm seeing is the Python code sends a mode switch command to get the dial box to auto-send dial events, so I wonder if there are any firmware differences with units destined for HP and units destined for SGI. They could behave the same way when in the same mode, but perhaps they are coming up in different modes. It's of course quite likely that I have a broken unit and there are no internal differences. Thanks for the helpful response! -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 19:13:15 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 17:13:15 -0700 Subject: Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > What I _think_ I'm seeing is the Python code sends a mode switch > command to get the dial box to auto-send dial events, so I wonder if > there are any firmware differences with units destined for HP and > units destined for SGI. They could behave the same way when in the > same mode, but perhaps they are coming up in different modes. It's of > course quite likely that I have a broken unit and there are no > internal differences. > FWIW, the microcontroller inside my HP A4362A dial box is a Motorola MC68HC705C4A with a stick on paper label with the number 109315-0001. It's a soldered down PLCC-44 package. If it was in a socket I'd remove it and try to dump the firmware if it's not read protected. If your dial box happens to have the same 109315-0001 number on the microcontroller then my assumption would be that the firmware is likely the same. If the number is different, no telling how different the firmware might be. The number etched on the component side of the PCB is 109202-0001 REV A. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 8 19:55:00 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 17:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Should be fun. >> Is the FDC a 765 variant? >> or a WD 179x variant? On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > SMC 37C651.? Supports? 500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates. > Something else we lost with the PC. That's a 765 variant. Made by several companies, even WD! Most of those can handle FM/"single density". 5.25" single density is 125K bps It might support it,> Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select > themselves. in spite of not mentioning it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 8 20:02:55 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 18:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select > themselves. >> Radio Shack used a different approach to drive select by cable instead >> of making use of the well documented drive select on the drive. >> Radio shack jumpered all drive selects on on the drive, and pulled >> pins in the cable. On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, allison via cctalk wrote: > OR used a straight cable and people used the drive select. THAT's the approach if users are smart enough to read simple instructions and follow them. Unfortunately, SOME users, or store technicians, are not smart enough to handle it. AND, PC dominated the market so thoroughly that some drives are shipped hardwired to PC jumpering, so for anything other than B:, it may be necessary to cut and solder to switch back to normal jumpers. >> SMC 37C651.? Supports? 500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates. >> Something else we lost with the PC. > The 37C651 is 765 variant,? so any PC should be able to create a > compatible disk. > Least for my CP/M systems its never been an issue.? considering I'e used > 8/5.25/3.5 drives > on the same boxes it should not be a big deal. Some excellent tips: > Some notes:? The 37C651 and its kin all have minimal drive so long > cables are > out as they pick up noise.? Keep the cable away from monitor (crt based) > and any > switching power supplies.? Use a separate ground wire from the drive > frame to > the board ground. > The IDE interface same deal, short cable only and one drive.? CF works. > When making a disk first ERASE IT using a degausser then format and copy > to it. > Also make sure the drives are the same TPI, your trying to make life easier. > I've had the best luck with older PC 5.25 like Toshiba and Teac.? For > 3.5 Sony > and Toshiba are the go to but if all else use the same drive to write it > and read > (that means moving it). > One last detail make sure all the voltages (+5, +12,-12) are good and clean. From dan at quakka.com Sun Apr 8 22:16:33 2018 From: dan at quakka.com (Dan MacMillan) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 20:16:33 -0700 Subject: Need help identifying Timex Sinclair ZX81 "Programmer Console" on eBay Message-ID: Hi everyone, I collect Timex Sinclair / ZX81 gear, but have never seen one of these before: https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Vtg-TIMEX-SINCLAIR-ZX81-Computer-PROGRAMMER-CONSOLE-Keyboard-Program-Micro-/222912636711?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=E3Q5DniESsEnsW083EldQnt%252FNf4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc Do any of you recognize it? Can you explain its purpose, please? Cheers, -Dan From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 22:29:43 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 03:29:43 +0000 Subject: Need help identifying Timex Sinclair ZX81 "Programmer Console" on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If no one else has the info, I am check my Sinclair 3rd party add-on docs, I have most known ads and product literature related to this subject. Bill On Sun, Apr 8, 2018, 11:16 PM Dan MacMillan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I collect Timex Sinclair / ZX81 gear, but have never seen one of these > before: > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Vtg-TIMEX-SINCLAIR-ZX81-Computer-PROGRAMMER-CONSOLE-Keyboard-Program-Micro-/222912636711?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=E3Q5DniESsEnsW083EldQnt%252FNf4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc > < > https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Vtg-TIMEX-SINCLAIR-ZX81-Computer-PROGRAMMER-CONSOLE-Keyboard-Program-Micro-/222912636711?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&nma=true&si=E3Q5DniESsEnsW083EldQnt%2FNf4%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc > > > > Do any of you recognize it? Can you explain its purpose, please? > > Cheers, > -Dan From useddec at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 22:37:23 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 22:37:23 -0500 Subject: alpha 3000-400S parts for sale Message-ID: If interested, please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Apr 8 22:58:38 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 22:58:38 -0500 Subject: Need help identifying Timex Sinclair ZX81 "Programmer Console" on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ACAE4EE.4090603@pico-systems.com> On 04/08/2018 10:16 PM, Dan MacMillan via cctalk wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I collect Timex Sinclair / ZX81 gear, but have never seen one of these before: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Vtg-TIMEX-SINCLAIR-ZX81-Computer-PROGRAMMER-CONSOLE-Keyboard-Program-Micro-/222912636711?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=E3Q5DniESsEnsW083EldQnt%252FNf4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc > > Do any of you recognize it? Can you explain its purpose, please? > > Cheers, > -Dan That is a Keyboard for a key to tape machine. These were used to replace keypunches, you keyed in data and it was written to magnetic tape. Now, all the labels on the keycaps and the rewiring of the back indicates it was repurposed at some time. Jon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 23:55:59 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 00:55:59 -0400 Subject: Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 8:13 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> What I _think_ I'm seeing is the Python code sends a mode switch >> command to get the dial box to auto-send dial events, so I wonder if >> there are any firmware differences with units destined for HP and >> units destined for SGI.... > > FWIW, the microcontroller inside my HP A4362A dial box is a Motorola > MC68HC705C4A with a stick on paper label with the number 109315-0001. Ah ah! Mine is marked 109457-0001. Additionally, in case there's a difference here, my PCB has 3 jumpers, JP-1, JP-2, and JP-3. On mine, JP-1 is closed with a solder blob, the other two are open. > The number etched on the component side of the PCB is 109202-0001 REV A. Same. Thanks for the sticker number. It's possible they are different internally, and from the comment in one of the mailing list threads about having to mod one of the programs for a specific model (absolute mode vs relative mode) it does seem likely that different units come up in different default modes. -ethan From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Apr 9 00:48:35 2018 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 15:48:35 +1000 Subject: Amust Executive up for auction Message-ID: <032a01d3cfc6$67399ea0$35acdbe0$@internode.on.net> Not sure if anyone in the Melbourne (Victoria, Australia) might be interested in this. I only just found about it from a friend of mine in Melbourne. The very famous (well famous here anyway) Kerleys Auction (http://www.kerleys.net.au) in Geelong have listed an Amust Executive computer in tomorrows (10 April) auction. http://www.kerleys.net.au/current-auction Its Lot 177 in the tomorrow's catalogue: http://www.kerleys.net.au/images/auctions/10-04-2018/CAT10-04-2018.PDF >From the only photo it looks in reasonably good condition. http://www.kerleys.net.au/images/auctions/10-04-2018/1-280/DSCN3459.JPG I believe Kerleys will take bids before the auction but not sure of terms - number is (03) 5223 1533 It's not something I'd like in my collection but may interest another Australian collector. Kevin Parker P: 0418 815 527 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 00:52:14 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 00:52:14 -0500 Subject: Amust Executive up for auction In-Reply-To: <032a01d3cfc6$67399ea0$35acdbe0$@internode.on.net> References: <032a01d3cfc6$67399ea0$35acdbe0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: neat On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 12:48 AM, Kevin Parker via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Not sure if anyone in the Melbourne (Victoria, Australia) might be > interested in this. I only just found about it from a friend of > mine in Melbourne. > > > > The very famous (well famous here anyway) Kerleys Auction ( > http://www.kerleys.net.au) in Geelong have listed an Amust Executive > computer in tomorrows (10 April) auction. > > > > http://www.kerleys.net.au/current-auction > > > > Its Lot 177 in the tomorrow's catalogue: > > > > http://www.kerleys.net.au/images/auctions/10-04-2018/CAT10-04-2018.PDF > > > > From the only photo it looks in reasonably good condition. > > > > http://www.kerleys.net.au/images/auctions/10-04-2018/1-280/DSCN3459.JPG > > > > I believe Kerleys will take bids before the auction but not sure of terms > - number is (03) 5223 1533 > > > > It's not something I'd like in my collection but may interest another > Australian collector. > > > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > P: 0418 815 527 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Apr 9 01:09:16 2018 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 16:09:16 +1000 Subject: Amust Executive up for auction In-Reply-To: <032a01d3cfc6$67399ea0$35acdbe0$@internode.on.net> References: <032a01d3cfc6$67399ea0$35acdbe0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <036101d3cfc9$4af9d720$e0ed8560$@internode.on.net> Sorry - omitted to include that I don?t know who the seller is and I have no connection with Kerleys Auctions ? Kevin Parker P: 0418 815 527 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Kevin Parker via cctalk Sent: Monday, 9 April 2018 15:49 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Amust Executive up for auction Not sure if anyone in the Melbourne (Victoria, Australia) might be interested in this. I only just found about it from a friend of mine in Melbourne. The very famous (well famous here anyway) Kerleys Auction (http://www.kerleys.net.au) in Geelong have listed an Amust Executive computer in tomorrows (10 April) auction. http://www.kerleys.net.au/current-auction Its Lot 177 in the tomorrow's catalogue: http://www.kerleys.net.au/images/auctions/10-04-2018/CAT10-04-2018.PDF >From the only photo it looks in reasonably good condition. http://www.kerleys.net.au/images/auctions/10-04-2018/1-280/DSCN3459.JPG I believe Kerleys will take bids before the auction but not sure of terms - number is (03) 5223 1533 It's not something I'd like in my collection but may interest another Australian collector. Kevin Parker P: 0418 815 527 From dave at 661.org Mon Apr 9 05:59:32 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 10:59:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Should be fun. >>> Is the FDC a 765 variant? >>> or a WD 179x variant? > > On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> SMC 37C651.? Supports? 500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates. >> Something else we lost with the PC. > > That's a 765 variant. Made by several companies, even WD! > Most of those can handle FM/"single density". > > 5.25" single density is 125K bps > It might support it,> Should have left it the way it was and have people set > the Drive Select >> themselves. > > in spite of not mentioning it. All the P112 boards I distributed use a FDC37C665IR super-IO chip from SMC. I don't know which variant David Brooks used. I never acquired one made by him. In case anyone wants more P112s, it's that chip that's the big sticking point for why I don't have anymore. The board stuffer's robots had problems dealing with pulls. The legs had to be absolutely perfect, so I had to get new-old-stock chips. I've recently discovered how to do a good job of soldering QFPs by hand, so maybe I could work that angle. The weirdness of the how the floppy drive cabling works with the P112 had me baffled for the longest time. Terry and I thought it would be best though to just leave those quirks alone when it came time to update the firmware. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave at 661.org Mon Apr 9 06:14:47 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 11:14:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I have no idea of the format.? I got the images and rawrite.exe and > told the computer to make them.? They were unusable when I used > a USB External floppy but worked fine when I used a real internal > floppy. > > I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading > and writing weird formats.? But that is coming. > > As a side note, I did get the system to boot and run from my floppy > emulator with a USB stick.? Have to boot twice.? First time you get > the unrecognized format error second time boots fine.? Interesting. > Good to know for when I am testing on other systems as well. > > Small steps, but advancing, just the same. > > bill I seem to recall using a USB floppy drive to make P112 disks, but I also did it using a Linux machine with the dd command. The rawrite.exe program is very old and I suspect it and modern Windows systems don't see eye-to-eye anymore. The format is described in the cpmtools diskdefs file. Below are the entries that seem most relevant to the P112. diskdef p112 seclen 512 tracks 160 sectrk 18 blocksize 2048 maxdir 256 skew 1 boottrk 2 os 3 end diskdef p112-old seclen 512 tracks 160 sectrk 18 blocksize 2048 maxdir 128 skew 1 boottrk 1 os 3 end diskdef gide-cfa seclen 512 tracks 1000 sectrk 16 blocksize 4096 maxdir 1024 skew 0 boottrk 2 os 3 end diskdef gide-cfb seclen 512 tracks 1000 sectrk 16 blocksize 4096 maxdir 1024 skew 0 boottrk 0 # Start of second partition offset 1000trk os 3 end -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Apr 9 09:03:21 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 08:03:21 -0600 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97dd5c64-dfd7-3e37-7131-2e48f23e1f27@e-bbes.com> On 2018-04-08 08:37, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > None of the disks created with winrawwrite work.? I am going to > assume at this point that USB floppies can not be used to build these > images.? I have a dos box with a real floppy interface but moving stuff > to it is not easy. (time to fire up Kermit again!!) No idea if it helps, but if you're doing it really on Win***, you have to make sure, you have administrator rights, and switch off any virus-scanners, active-protection or whatever software which could run in the background. They usually block the access to the first "tracks" of a device, without any warning ... Have the same problem, when I try to write complete sd-cards for my FPGAs, and forget about that ;-) Cheers From ethan at 757.org Mon Apr 9 10:51:17 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 11:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SGI Indigo Power Supply Pinout? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I Have an indigo that has not gotten much use aside from when i first > picked it up. It has the bigger power supply as well and is maxed out on > memory. As a last resort, I could sell you my machine. It boots, I had > rigged a peice of jumper wire to the battery to overcome a flat battery, i > did not want to attempt desoldering the battery on board. I have been > focusing less on the smaller workstations like the indigo and octane and > have been using my onyx and crimson, so I am looking to get rid of the > smaller workstations. Ah nice re: the deskside SGIs! I remember those fondly. At this point I'm going to try to figure out how this mechanism works in the power supply, but if I can't get it rolling soon I will reach out to you. Rent is high and excess doesn't sell well on eBay any more so being conservative these days. My coworker is supposed to bring me one of his Indigo power supplies today, and I will see if the PSU is at fault or not, and then try to figure out how the power supply communicates the status. Oddly enough they were trying to do soft power off on the Indigo and it never made it into production but some of the hardware is in the power supplies? - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From Richard.Sheppard at telus.com Mon Apr 9 12:42:23 2018 From: Richard.Sheppard at telus.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 17:42:23 +0000 Subject: Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?) Message-ID: <15fbc3a7bede4d8da4c24527d23ab4af@BTWP000245.corp.ads> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Ethan Dicks > wrote: > SN-921 > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_front.jpg > > DANAHER CONTROLS Dials DLS80-1022 > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_front.jpg >>>> https://github.com/hanshuebner/sgi-dialbox-usb/blob/master/dialbox.py > > I'm going to test this code out when I have a dialbox in hand. The Solaris CDs used to have /usr/demo/DIALBOX (and BUTTONBOX) with source code. I think it was meant for xview though so you'd need to pick out the useful bits (if any). Richard Sheppard From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 19:01:55 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 20:01:55 -0400 Subject: SGI SN-921 dial box working! (was Re: Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box) Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 5:01 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> SN-921 >> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_front.jpg > >>>>> https://github.com/hanshuebner/sgi-dialbox-usb/blob/master/dialbox.py >> >> I'm going to test this code out when I have a dialbox in hand. > > I have now tried this and am not having success. I have a traffic > light on the serial cable and I know I'm getting chars out of the host > and that I don't have TxD and RxD swapped. I'm not seeing any > responses from the dial box and the python script does all the > initialization and just sits there. Frobbing the knobs produces no > blinks on the traffic light and no text from the script. OK. I got the script working and two things were impediments: 1) One of the SN-921 pinouts running around on the 'net is incorrect, as I posted. The *correct* place for the ground is DE-9 pin 7. I was apparently getting enough of a parasitic ground to get chars *from* the SN-921 but not *into* the SN-921. As it turns out, it appears the SN-921 as set up for the SGI is mute except for a single status success byte 0x20. If you send it an INIT command (also 0x20), it will respond with its success after a fraction of a second, which leads to another problem... 2) The python script dialbox.py slams the init code and a command to set the dials to auto-report all at once, before the SN-921 has a chance to initialize. So to fix that, I added a few extra lines to send the 0x20 INIT command, pause, check for a 0x20 response (INIT GOOD) _then_ send the AUTO command (0x50 0x00 0xFF), which sets all 8 dials (one bit per dial) to send back a 3-byte packet when twisted. With the custom serial cable fixed and the init sequence fixed in the Python script, I'm now getting the right data stream when I twist any of the knobs. I did get a copy of dialbox.c from http://www.geocities.ws/joekrahn/dialbox.tgz Jim Stephens tracked down that there was a massive GeoCities scan done in 2009 and the file I was looking for happened to be scooped up then. There are a number of dial box and button box command sets in that code which reveals some of the more complex behavior possible. Here's a slice of the command byte definitions... #define DIAL_INITIALIZE 0x20 #define DIAL_SET_AUTO_DIALS 0x50 #define DIAL_SET_AUTO_DELTA_DIALS 0x51 #define DIAL_SET_FILTER 0x53 #define DIAL_SET_TEXT 0x61 #define DIAL_SET_BUTTONS_MOM_TYPE 0x71 #define DIAL_SET_AUTO_MOM_BUTTONS 0x73 #define DIAL_SET_LEDS 0x75 #define DIAL_SET_ALL_LEDS 0x4b It should be possible to write up a protocol definition from studying the code. I do not have one of these button boxes so I can't validate its behavior. -ethan From Mark at Misty.com Mon Apr 9 20:00:34 2018 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 21:00:34 -0400 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180410010034.GA2667@allie.home.misty.com> Hi Bill, On Sun, Apr 08, 2018 at 12:36:35AM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > It's not really Classic Hardware, but it does run some pretty classic > OSes.? Anybody here working with the P112?? I have had a couple for > ages but never had time to play with them.? I see them now as a > possible way to manipulate floppies (including 8") from classic systems > so I decided to give it a try.? Problem is, it won't boot anything.? Not the > disk that came with it and none of the images I got off the web. > Anybody here know anything about them? I see you have made progress since this post, but I wanted to chime in. I have two, with GIDE cards, and booting from CF cards. One has the LAN interface card (see http://stack180.com/). I haven't been using the floppies, though have always meant to try to get it to do SSSD 8" format for compatibility with tons of CP/M floppies I have. I was always surprised not to hear more from other p112 users. There is a mailing list, but the last post I know of was five years ago when I asked if anyone else was on the list. http://lists.feedle.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p112 Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 14:10:44 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 15:10:44 -0400 Subject: Burroughs L8000 San Antonio TX Message-ID: Anyone interested in buying a Burroughs L8000, currently San Antonio TX? If so, contact me via http://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm and I will put you in touch with the person who contacted me. I already have two or three of these so....just kidding not personally interested in this. Bill From dmonnens at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 16:34:10 2018 From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 16:34:10 -0500 Subject: The Famous Computer Cafe Message-ID: Hello, I am trying to find anyone who has recordings of a radio program from 1982-1986 called The Famous Computer Cafe. This was broadcast on KIEV in Glendale, KFOX in Redondo Beach, and NPR through Santa Monica College (here in 1984-1985). The program contained numerous interviews with all the movers and shakers of computers and software during that period, including Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Jack Tramiel. As such, this show is of high historical importance. There was somewhere between 100 and 200 episodes all told. I understand it was an extremely popular program among hobbyists at the time, so was hoping someone from the list might have recordings. If you have any recordings or know someone who might, please let me know! I have contacted the show's hosts, but we have only been able to locate a handful of recordings. Thank you! -- Devin Monnens www.deserthat.com The sleep of Reason produces monsters. From dave at 661.org Tue Apr 10 17:26:43 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 22:26:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: <20180410010034.GA2667@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20180410010034.GA2667@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Apr 2018, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote: > Hi Bill, > > On Sun, Apr 08, 2018 at 12:36:35AM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> It's not really Classic Hardware, but it does run some pretty classic >> OSes.? Anybody here working with the P112?? I have had a couple for >> ages but never had time to play with them.? I see them now as a >> possible way to manipulate floppies (including 8") from classic systems >> so I decided to give it a try.? Problem is, it won't boot anything.? Not the >> disk that came with it and none of the images I got off the web. >> Anybody here know anything about them? > > I see you have made progress since this post, but I wanted to chime > in. I have two, with GIDE cards, and booting from CF cards. One has the > LAN interface card (see http://stack180.com/). I haven't been using > the floppies, though have always meant to try to get it to do SSSD > 8" format for compatibility with tons of CP/M floppies I have. > > I was always surprised not to hear more from other p112 users. > > There is a mailing list, but the last post I know of was five years > ago when I asked if anyone else was on the list. > > http://lists.feedle.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p112 It seems that most P112 discussion happens here or on comp.os.cpm. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 17:23:10 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 15:23:10 -0700 Subject: Vintage computing themed domain names for sale Message-ID: Hello Folks. I am selling the following two vintage computing themed domain names: vintage-computing.com paleocomputing.com Make an offer on either. Please of course reply directly to me if interested. Thanks! Sellam From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 10:05:32 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 17:05:32 +0200 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29 March 2018 at 19:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > It would be fun to do a "generalized Moore's Law" chart, showing not just transistor count growth (Moore's subject) but also the many other scaling changes of computing: disk capacity, recording density, disk IOPS, disk bandwidth, ditto those for tape, CPU MIPS, memory size, memory bandwidth, network bandwidth... This is the most telling I've seen in a long time... https://danluu.com/input-lag/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 11 10:18:42 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 10:18:42 -0500 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d3d1a8$60657890$213069b0$@classiccmp.org> Liam wrote... https://danluu.com/input-lag/ Hey thanks for that link... fun read! J From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 10:36:12 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 17:36:12 +0200 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29 March 2018 at 21:35, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > MP4s mean that now, not only does it take MUCH longer to create the > document, we can now waste MUCH more of the reader's time! > I find it very annoying that when GOOGLE'ing to find a simple answer, many > of the first hits are YouTube. I got a room full of very surprised looks a couple of years ago, interviewing for a tech-writer position, when I said that I hated online videos as instructions, finding them far too slow and inefficient. This concept shocked everyone in the room, AFAICT. > Dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish has let form triumph over content! > When will we finally have smell-o-vision? I used to think this of media such as Snapchat, Tumblr, Pinterest, Instagram et al. Then I realised something -- something connected with my career change to tech writing. A lot of people _can't_ express themselves in text. Some don't care and let fly with all their spelling and grammatical errors, mostly-missing-and-the-rest-incorrect punctuation etc. At least 1 of my cousins is like that -- I can barely follow when this woman (who is in her mid 50s) writes to me. It's barely English, with no punctuation, no capitals, no sentences or paragraphs, just stream of incoherent severely-misspelled consciousness. I don't think she realises, and she can't help it. I suspect many, of all ages, are like her. And I further suspect that they can't easily consume text, either. They can't read very fluidly. Also see: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/11/16/20011116/ ... and this from someone who I generally admire. He, as many do now, see threading as an unnecessary, distracting technical frippery. Astounding. But for those who _do_ care about appearances but _can't_ write well *and know it*, Snapchat etc. are a way out. You can "express yourself" via pictures. You can take them yourself, use filters and so on to tart them up a bit, and still communicate with a community of friends, with no more writing than a few tags at a minimum. If you can't even do that, Pinterest lets you do it _with someone else's images_. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 10:40:39 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 17:40:39 +0200 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 1 April 2018 at 00:26, ben via cctalk wrote: > > But that is the old fly in the ointment, other software may not be avilable. It is, you know. > I do run windows Why? > and real text screen UNIX is not aviable anymore. Sure it is. I mean, there are even text-only distros, such as INX: http://inx.maincontent.net/ ... and ADRIANE, a spinoff of Knoppix: http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-adriane/index-en.html But you can install Debian, Ubuntu or openSUSE in text-only mode with no GUI if you wish. All the console-mode tools you could want are available: web browsers, email and chat clients, twitter clients, music players, etc. Go the whole hog and install Slackware and go back to installing from tarballs if you wish. I'd probably suggest openSUSE as the YaST admin tool works in text mode, so you don't need to know your way around a hundred config files -- YaST will do that for you. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 11:01:29 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 16:01:29 +0000 Subject: 5.25- inch alignment disk needed Message-ID: I find myself in need of a 5.25-inch alignment disk. A few years ago someone mentioned a source for those, but I can't seem to find it. Is there still a source, or does anyone have one they'd be willing to sell? I could use an 8-inch alignment disk also, but don't need that as urgently. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 11:10:53 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:10:53 -0400 Subject: 5.25- inch alignment disk needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I find myself in need of a 5.25-inch alignment disk. A few years ago > someone mentioned a source for those, but I can't seem to find it. Is there > still a source, or does anyone have one they'd be willing to sell? > > I could use an 8-inch alignment disk also, but don't need that as urgently. > where are you located From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Apr 11 11:31:34 2018 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 09:31:34 -0700 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It might break the rules since it only goes back to 1999, but here's Moore's law for integer speed, floating point speed, number of processors, memory sizes and disk sizes for the machines connected to SETI at home. Plots are averages and medians, unfiltered for errors. At least one of the parameters (total credited ops) is no longer used. expavg credit includes GPU work even though it's not included in the processor speed numbers. If someone wants a distillation of the data for comparing to earlier machines, let me know. http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/host_stats/index.html On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 10:53 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Mar 29, 2018, at 12:20 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I?m not trying to date myself but have things truly sped up? In 1970?s > > Toronto I had a classic computer, sorry can?t recall what it was, > connected > > to a 300 baud modem; by early 80?s had ?zoomed? to 9600 baud. Oh, my! [ A > > typical file size to download was probably 1 MB. ] Speed indeed! Yet now, > > here in rural Ontario, Canada, I?m at 5MB/s. Yikes! (Friends in Toronto > are > > at 50MB/s.) We can do the math but content, particularly multimedia, has > > swollen in size.[ 1 GB is not unheard of. ] Were classic computing days > > that much slower? Happy computing. Murray -:) > > I remember downloading the GCC release kit over a 56k dialup line, in > 2000. Took a while. > > The ARPAnet in its early days had "high speed backbone" links which were > 56k bps. Terminal links presumably 110 bps, that being the speed of ASCII > teletypes. And back in the late 1970s you could still find even slower > links in some places, such as 6 bit links connecting teletype machines for > newspaper "wire service" feeds. > > It would be fun to do a "generalized Moore's Law" chart, showing not just > transistor count growth (Moore's subject) but also the many other scaling > changes of computing: disk capacity, recording density, disk IOPS, disk > bandwidth, ditto those for tape, CPU MIPS, memory size, memory bandwidth, > network bandwidth... > > All these have grown dramatically, but very clearly not in the same > proportion, for some of these the changes are smooth while others are > jumps, and the rate of change sometimes varies dramatically over the > decades. > > paul > > > -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 11:33:10 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 17:33:10 +0100 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00df01d3d1b2$c8218460$58648d20$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via > cctalk > Sent: 11 April 2018 16:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Speed now & then (Space and time?) > > On 29 March 2018 at 21:35, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > MP4s mean that now, not only does it take MUCH longer to create the > > document, we can now waste MUCH more of the reader's time! > > I find it very annoying that when GOOGLE'ing to find a simple answer, > > many of the first hits are YouTube. > Sometimes these are useful, usually not. Some of the slowest and most painful come from the biggest players... Of course when you want a video, like how to remove the casing from my AirCon because the drain is blocked -site:youtube.com gets rid of most > I got a room full of very surprised looks a couple of years ago, interviewing > for a tech-writer position, when I said that I hated online videos as > instructions, finding them far too slow and inefficient. > > This concept shocked everyone in the room, AFAICT. > Why, its obvious... > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 11 11:43:19 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:43:19 -0400 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 11, 2018, at 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 29 March 2018 at 19:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> It would be fun to do a "generalized Moore's Law" chart, showing not just transistor count growth (Moore's subject) but also the many other scaling changes of computing: disk capacity, recording density, disk IOPS, disk bandwidth, ditto those for tape, CPU MIPS, memory size, memory bandwidth, network bandwidth... > > This is the most telling I've seen in a long time... > > https://danluu.com/input-lag/ Nice. It would be interesting to throw in some even older systems. One that comes to mind is PLATO. I don't remember exactly what it delivered for response time, there were good test results on it. Somewhere in the 100 ms range, I believe, much of which was transmission delays due to low baud rates. And that was with 600 users, sharing a quad processor 4 x 10 MHz machine, in 1976. paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 11 13:09:23 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 11:09:23 -0700 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/11/2018 09:31 AM, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > It might break the rules since it only goes back to 1999, but here's > Moore's law for integer speed, floating point speed, number of processors, > memory sizes and disk sizes for the machines connected to SETI at home. Plots > are averages and medians, unfiltered for errors. At least one of the > parameters (total credited ops) is no longer used. expavg credit > includes GPU work even though it's not included in the processor speed > numbers. If someone wants a distillation of the data for comparing to > earlier machines, let me know. I thought that Moore's "law" dealt only with the number of transistors on a die. Did Gordon also say something about performance? --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 13:21:36 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:21:36 -0400 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On 29 March 2018 at 21:35, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >> MP4s mean that now, not only does it take MUCH longer to create the >> document, we can now waste MUCH more of the reader's time! >> I find it very annoying that when GOOGLE'ing to find a simple answer, many >> of the first hits are YouTube. > > I got a room full of very surprised looks a couple of years ago, > interviewing for a tech-writer position, when I said that I hated > online videos as instructions, finding them far too slow and > inefficient. I totally agree. I read faster than most people talk and I retain more information. I'd much rather read 1,000 words than watch a 3 minute video. > This concept shocked everyone in the room, AFAICT. Not surprising given how many generations have now grown up watching TV as their major input mode. > Then I realised something -- something connected with my career change > to tech writing. > > A lot of people _can't_ express themselves in text. Some don't care > and let fly with all their spelling and grammatical errors, > mostly-missing-and-the-rest-incorrect punctuation etc. Yes. People can ramble into a mobile phone and upload to YouTube but actually _writing_ the same process... not everyone is a writer. There are times when video instruction makes sense - describing, for example, a chemical reaction that produces major visible change in a few moments is better to watch than to try to describe. The vast majority of stuff? Teaching programming? I don't want to watch 2 hours of someone editing text... give me words and perhaps a screenshot or two if there's something too complicated to simply write about. I've taken several MOOCs. The only saving grace is the 2X and 4X buttons on playback. -ethan From jecel at merlintec.com Wed Apr 11 13:31:47 2018 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:31:47 -0300 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180411183155.B6ABA1480DF7@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Chuck Guzis wrote on Wed, 11 Apr 2018 11:09:23 -0700 > I thought that Moore's "law" dealt only with the number of transistors > on a die. Did Gordon also say something about performance? That is correct. The observation that transistors would be faster and use less power as they became smaller is called "Dennard scaling" from 1974: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennard_scaling This led to the MHz wars of the 1990s. Sadly, as the isolation barriers (the "O" in "MOS") became thinner and thinner we could no longer ignore leakage currents. In addition, going with lower voltages no longer was possible as we got closer and closer to the transistor threashold voltages. So we got stuck at 3 GHz or less. Besides getting more performance with smaller transistors, we have also been increasing performance by taking advantage of more transistors by doing more stuff in parallel. So we went from up to dozens of clock cycles per instructions to three or four instructions per clock cycle. Quite a few of the additional transistors have been use for more and more layers of caches. -- Jecel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 11 13:40:24 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:40:24 -0400 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <20180411183155.B6ABA1480DF7@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20180411183155.B6ABA1480DF7@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <66EAF420-8471-4FAB-ADBF-14D7EF76183B@comcast.net> > On Apr 11, 2018, at 2:31 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote on Wed, 11 Apr 2018 11:09:23 -0700 >> I thought that Moore's "law" dealt only with the number of transistors >> on a die. Did Gordon also say something about performance? > > That is correct. The observation that transistors would be faster and > use less power as they became smaller is called "Dennard scaling" from > 1974: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennard_scaling > > This led to the MHz wars of the 1990s. Sadly, as the isolation barriers > (the "O" in "MOS") became thinner and thinner we could no longer ignore > leakage currents. In addition, going with lower voltages no longer was > possible as we got closer and closer to the transistor threashold > voltages. So we got stuck at 3 GHz or less. For silicon VLSI logic circuits, yes, give or take a GHz or so. CMOS can go very much higher in RF circuits. And if you switch to different semiconductors, you can go higher still. People have built oscillators that get close to a THz, but those are not logic circuits, let alone computers. Propagation latencies also become an issue, though you can design fast computers with substantial propagation delays if you have to. Cray did this decades ago; the basic stage delay in the CDC 6600 is 1/20th of the clock period, and the delay on chassis interconnects is 1/4 of the clock period. In that design, all sorts of things are carefully paced to match the known propagation delays. But most other computers were not designed with such complex techniques. paul From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Apr 11 14:16:30 2018 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:16:30 -0700 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I thought that Moore's "law" dealt only with the number of transistors > on a die. Did Gordon also say something about performance? > You are correct that he only applied it to transistor count. The extension to everything else under the sun was made by others. > --Chuck > > -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 11 14:28:53 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> I thought that Moore's "law" dealt only with the number of transistors >> on a die. Did Gordon also say something about performance? On Wed, 11 Apr 2018, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > You are correct that he only applied it to transistor count. The extension > to everything else under the sun was made by others. The number of things under the sun that Moore's "law" gets applied to doubles every 18 months. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Apr 11 14:39:25 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 19:39:25 +0000 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/11/2018 03:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> I thought that Moore's "law" dealt only with the number of transistors >>> on a die.?? Did Gordon also say something about performance? > On Wed, 11 Apr 2018, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: >> You are correct that he only applied it to transistor count.? The >> extension >> to everything else under the sun was made by others. > > The number of things under the sun that Moore's "law" gets applied to > doubles every 18 months. > Isn't that one of the corollaries of Moore's Law? bill From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 14:11:14 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:11:14 -0700 Subject: 5.25- inch alignment disk needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you get stuck you might try athana.com. They have lots of hard/floppy disks, including some alignment media. I've used them to rebuild RK05 media. A few years back I asked the owner how he stays in business. Two words: Federal Government. Marc On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 9:10 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I find myself in need of a 5.25-inch alignment disk. A few years ago > > someone mentioned a source for those, but I can't seem to find it. Is > there > > still a source, or does anyone have one they'd be willing to sell? > > > > I could use an 8-inch alignment disk also, but don't need that as > urgently. > > > > where are you located > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 11 14:49:55 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:49:55 -0700 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <20180411183155.B6ABA1480DF7@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20180411183155.B6ABA1480DF7@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <300966b1-9246-a365-35f9-0b60d0de9fc0@sydex.com> On 04/11/2018 11:31 AM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > Besides getting more performance with smaller transistors, we have also > been increasing performance by taking advantage of more transistors by > doing more stuff in parallel. So we went from up to dozens of clock > cycles per instructions to three or four instructions per clock cycle. > Quite a few of the additional transistors have been use for more and > more layers of caches. As one old acquaintance said "We've given up on reducing the time it takes one woman to produce a baby. Our new approach is to use nine women to get a baby in one month" ...or something to that effect. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 11 14:52:42 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:52:42 -0700 Subject: 5.25- inch alignment disk needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d81db57-835d-9dfb-0323-bdacf37aecf8@sydex.com> On 04/11/2018 12:11 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > If you get stuck you might try athana.com. They have lots of hard/floppy > disks, including some alignment media. I've used them to rebuild RK05 > media. > > A few years back I asked the owner how he stays in business. Two words: > Federal Government. I was under the apprehension that Athana had recently sold their remaining stock to http://www.floppydisk.com/ --Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Apr 11 14:52:54 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 19:52:54 +0000 Subject: Toshiba Laptop needing new home Message-ID: <79F7834F-18A9-41A7-823F-F337181F0E05@swri.edu> All, in San Antonio (Texas), I have a Toshiba Satellite 2065CDS/4.3 laptop, Model number PRS206U-A, whose owner wants to give or throw it away (preferred give). It has a 16-bit ethernet card including dongle and driver floppy, annoying eraser-head cursor control with replacement eraser heads, USB port, 3.5? floppy, CD drive. Starts up to Toshiba screen and shows 160 MBytes of RAM. I watched it boot to Win98 once and fail to boot many times. I think the owner had it dual-booting to Linux as well, but he is having the disk wiped to make sure no personal information goes with it. The battery kept it running for only about 15 seconds on power-disconnect after being plugged in (running) for an hour or two, so probably not much battery life available. I think the freshly-cleaned hard drive has ~ 4 GB of space, don?t know for sure about that. Let me know if you are interested; I?ll forward inquiries to the owner as I get them. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 11 16:48:20 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:48:20 -0600 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/11/2018 9:40 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 1 April 2018 at 00:26, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> But that is the old fly in the ointment, other software may not be avilable. > > It is, you know. Smart ass response: Who pirated it for you. >> I do run windows > > Why? The FREE fpga development software is only under windows. >> and real text screen UNIX is not aviable anymore. > > Sure it is. > I have a nice 18 bit cpu here, with only a few hardware bugs. Hmm would it work better if I change that around ideas. Care to point to a nice 18 bit version of unix or C. BTW The cpu has a frame pointer S but no S++ --S operations so pushing and popping wild data is not a option. > I mean, there are even text-only distros, such as INX: > > http://inx.maincontent.net/ > > ... and ADRIANE, a spinoff of Knoppix: > > http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-adriane/index-en.html But my hardware (LOW density SD card) is 256 9 bit charaters per block for disk I/O. > But you can install Debian, Ubuntu or openSUSE in text-only mode with > no GUI if you wish. All the console-mode tools you could want are > available: web browsers, email and chat clients, twitter clients, > music players, etc. I still have to finish Tomb Raider 1 under DOS(box) First. > Go the whole hog and install Slackware and go back to installing from > tarballs if you wish. > > I'd probably suggest openSUSE as the YaST admin tool works in text > mode, so you don't need to know your way around a hundred config files > -- YaST will do that for you. WHAT HAPPEND TO * MINUX VERSION #1 *. Ben. PS: I do have a better OS kicking around, Oberon but I need a extra screen and keyboard for it. PPS: Software efficiency halves every 18 months, compensating Moore's law From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 11 17:14:48 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:14:48 -0700 Subject: Amusing IBM test system model Message-ID: <7c57b475-98a7-ec32-525d-73c76146e342@bitsavers.org> https://www.ebay.com/itm/132578314834 it appears IBM built a test system for NASA with an HP 1000 and 7900 disk in it From tingox at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 17:16:38 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 00:16:38 +0200 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Since you brought it up On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 11:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > > The FREE fpga development software is only under windows. > Free alternatives exist (and can only get better coverage with time) http://www.clifford.at/yosys/ https://github.com/cseed/arachne-pnr http://www.clifford.at/icestorm/ HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 18:21:17 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 17:21:17 -0600 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > The FREE fpga development software is only under windows. > Xilinx and Altera (now Intel) FPGA development software, including the "free" editions, have run under Linux for many years now. I routinely use them on Fedora and CentOS. The Xilinx Vivado WebPack software supports the entire Artix-7 product line, which covers a pretty wide range of device sizes. Xilinx ISE WebPack supports Spartan 3, Spartan 6, and CPLD devices. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 11 18:45:40 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 17:45:40 -0600 Subject: retrocomputing and fpg's 18 or other odd size bits In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 4/11/2018 4:16 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > Since you brought it up > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 11:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> The FREE fpga development software is only under windows. >> > > Free alternatives exist (and can only get better coverage with time) > http://www.clifford.at/yosys/ > https://github.com/cseed/arachne-pnr > http://www.clifford.at/icestorm/ > > HTH > Does NOT support my FPGA. I am using the FPGA for all the heavy lifting of testing my cpu design so in time it can be used for other things. The real design is a microcode 2901 cpu about 1976 ish, with 256x8 70 ns proms. Modern 22V10's will be used as 'prom' and 'glue' logic, but alas that software and GAL programmer still are windows only. It is a similar feel to the 16 bit computers other than the PDP 11, and same cycle times as core of that era. 1.3 us for operate and 2.6 us memory operations. 18 bits is just about right for a 'small' computer size and operands and front panel. Disk I/O will be fake devices of 9 bit characters on a SD card. Now I need to hit the web for some good programing books from the 1970's era so I finalize the I/O and memory map of the computer and fine tune the instruction set. Ben. Yes I know the FPGA card can run faster,but not with 1976 speeds. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 11 18:47:33 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 19:47:33 -0400 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Apr 11, 2018, at 5:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > ... >>> and real text screen UNIX is not aviable anymore. >> Sure it is. > > I have a nice 18 bit cpu here, with only a few hardware bugs. > Hmm would it work better if I change that around ideas. > > Care to point to a nice 18 bit version of unix or C. > BTW The cpu has a frame pointer S but no S++ --S operations > so pushing and popping wild data is not a option. I haven't tried pcc, but supposedly that has been ported to the PDP-10, so presumably it can be ported to an 18-bit machine too. You could try gcc; creating a simple back end is not all that hard. And while it makes no attempt to support non-multiple-of-8-bit machines, it can be forced to, after a fashion. One time for grins I banged together a very primitive CDC 6000 back end. It wasn't correct but it wasn't horribly wrong... 18 bit Unix, not sure about that one. It was originally done on a PDP-7 but I think that was before C and it's no longer around that I know of. Still, older versions might be somewhat portable. Does it have to be Unix? For a simple character environment, Forth is nice and it's very easy to port to pretty much any computer. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 11 19:04:12 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 18:04:12 -0600 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 4/11/2018 5:21 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:48 PM, ben via cctalk > wrote: > > The FREE fpga development software is only under windows. > > > Xilinx and Altera (now Intel) FPGA development software, including the > "free" editions, have run under Linux for many years now. I routinely > use them on Fedora and CentOS. I got version #9 of the Altera software to go with the old DE1 FPGA card.I have that card so I can do TTL logic macro's and test before I do a PCB layout using 74LS chips. More modern software seems to have dropped that funtionality. I also like programing in AHDL because I find VHDL and VERLOG too confusing to use. AHDL also has a similar format to WINCUPL that I use for 22V10 programing. This way I can define logic modules using 22V10's with the FPGA and test that as well as the 2901 emulation. > The Xilinx Vivado WebPack software supports the entire Artix-7 product > line, which covers a pretty wide range of device sizes. Xilinx ISE > WebPack supports Spartan 3, Spartan 6, and CPLD devices. > Any PCB designs I build will use through the hole parts, thus 22V10's will be my biggest programable device. Ben. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Apr 11 19:30:45 2018 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 01:30:45 +0100 Subject: Unix-PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f0731c0-c436-d35c-062e-36b9e8bbd3b4@philpem.me.uk> On 25/03/18 00:39, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > On 03/24/2018 07:58 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 5:44 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > > The Unix-PC has found a new home in the hands of someone > I am sure will enjoy and appreciate it. I would expect him to > show up here sometime with questions as he tries to revive > it. I tried booting it and while it booted fine from the diagnostic > floppy and things like memory and CPU tested OK it won't boot > off the hard disk which means either the hard disk has died > (a possibility considering its age) or could just be bit rot. In > any event, he got all the floppies that went with it. Who knows, > might show up at VCF-East some day. > > At least it has MFM hard drives, which means that it can use the MFM emulator to have near infinite storage (sadly, only ~64MB at a time due to limitations in the controller, it seems). > > I wondered about that. I heard someone was working on one but I never saw it. > Got any pointers? 70M is the limit I think. has something to do with the registers > in the controller. But I seem to remember a mod to let it use two disks. That would > make it 140M. That'd be the P5.1 Mod. > This one has 1 Meg. Amount isn't the problem, finding the expansion boards is. They > were rare in its heyday and probably unobtanium today. > > As for something more modern, I always thought it would be an improvement if it ran > BSD. Even with only one meg it should be able to run 2.11BSD if someone could do a > port. Then you put NFS on and disk space is no longer a problem. :-) Good luck finding an Ethernet card! I don't like the sound of NFS over SLIP... (which you'd need a Combo Card for)... or NFS over PPP at 1200 Baud thru the internal modem... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 11 19:42:30 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 18:42:30 -0600 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9e79b8d2-df42-7cfd-b9f2-f97785b6ce89@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/11/2018 5:47 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I haven't tried pcc, but supposedly that has been ported to the PDP-10, so presumably it can be ported to an 18-bit machine too. > Well the original C mostly just and 8 bit bytes and 16 bit ints, with floating point for good luck. Now who knows what it needs. But the good (old) news is you still can get the original C compiler for the 11. > You could try gcc; creating a simple back end is not all that hard. And while it makes no attempt to support non-multiple-of-8-bit machines, it can be forced to, after a fashion. One time for grins I banged together a very primitive CDC 6000 back end. It wasn't correct but it wasn't horribly wrong... > > 18 bit Unix, not sure about that one. It was originally done on a PDP-7 but I think that was before C and it's no longer around that I know of. Still, older versions might be somewhat portable. Disk I/O needs be word size aligned so I guess 16 bit unix (if you could use it, curse you bell labs) could be ported providing you don't have nasty tricks to 18 bit I/O. > > Does it have to be Unix? For a simple character environment, Forth is nice and it's very easy to port to pretty much any computer. Unix was the only thing I can think of that is character I/O , device drivers and on 16 bit cpu written in a high level language. > paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 11 20:38:34 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 18:38:34 -0700 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 04/11/2018 02:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > I have a nice 18 bit cpu here, with only a few hardware bugs. > Hmm would it work better if I change that around ideas. > > Care to point to a nice 18 bit version of unix or C. > BTW The cpu has a frame pointer S but no S++ --S operations > so pushing and popping wild data is not a option. Well, the Univac 1100/2200 series mainframes ran V7 Unix--and they're 36-bit machines, so probably not far from your 18-bitter--and they're ones' complement machines. Univac called it "SX1100", so you have a search term. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 23:06:29 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 22:06:29 -0600 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 6:04 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/11/2018 5:21 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:48 PM, ben via cctalk > > wrote: >> >> The FREE fpga development software is only under windows. >> >> Xilinx and Altera (now Intel) FPGA development software, including the >> "free" editions, have run under Linux for many years now. I routinely use >> them on Fedora and CentOS. >> > > Any PCB designs I build will use through the hole parts, thus 22V10's will > be my biggest programable device. Sorry, I thought we were talking about FPGAs. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 01:45:07 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 23:45:07 -0700 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> On 04/11/2018 06:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 04/11/2018 02:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> I have a nice 18 bit cpu here, with only a few hardware bugs. >> Hmm would it work better if I change that around ideas. >> >> Care to point to a nice 18 bit version of unix or C. >> BTW The cpu has a frame pointer S but no S++ --S operations >> so pushing and popping wild data is not a option. > > Well, the Univac 1100/2200 series mainframes ran V7 Unix--and they're > 36-bit machines, so probably not far from your 18-bitter--and they're > ones' complement machines. > > Univac called it "SX1100", so you have a search term. Remarkably, Unisys keeps a lot of old documentation around. Here's the reference manual for their "C" on th 1100: https://public.support.unisys.com/2200/docs/cp14.0/pdf/78310422-011.pdf Looks pretty much like standard C until you get into the minutiae, such as "A character constant is 1 to 4 characters" and page 4-4 "Data Types" (9 bit characters and 36 bit ints and 18 bit short ints). So, it should be pretty straightforward unless you assume that a char is 8 bits, with a signed char having a range of +/-255. --Chuck From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Apr 12 04:45:05 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 11:45:05 +0200 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20180412094505.bn6kpqrqg6fk3pm3@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 03:48:20PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: [...] > The FREE fpga development software is only under windows. Altera's Quartus II and Xilinx ISE also have Linux versions. They're as free as the Windows versions. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 05:57:49 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 12:57:49 +0200 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11 April 2018 at 20:21, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I totally agree. I read faster than most people talk and I retain > more information. I'd much rather read 1,000 words than watch a 3 > minute video. Strongly agreed. > Not surprising given how many generations have now grown up watching > TV as their major input mode. :-( > Yes. People can ramble into a mobile phone and upload to YouTube but > actually _writing_ the same process... not everyone is a writer. Worse still, Youtube has commercialised this. The _only_ instructions I could find anywhere for rooting my smartphone and installing a new ROM were a Russian language Youtube video, some 30min long. I don't speak Russian, but thankfully, he had subtitled it in English. But people make many such vids, with bolted-on title sequences and rambling "hi guys, welcome, thanks for watching" intros, partly because that's all they know how to do, and partly because they hope to get lots of people to watch it all and thus get a kickback from Google for the revenue from the embedded ads. 99.9% won't of course, but a few get rich doing it: PewDePie etc. And 99.9% of them are later exposed as racists, anti-semites etc. What a shock, etc. Wannabe "models" are doing the same on Instagram -- underweight teen women making a good living from posting a lot of pics of themselves in their underwear or swimwear, and so on. A few later "come out" as suffering from anorexia etc. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/nov/03/instagram-star-essena-oneill-quits-2d-life-to-reveal-true-story-behind-images Most don't, but they set horribly unrealistic standards of appearance for young women, etc. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 05:58:52 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 12:58:52 +0200 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 11 April 2018 at 23:48, ben wrote: > The FREE fpga development software is only under windows. WINE works well now. I write in Word 97 under WINE on 64-bit Ubuntu. Works a treat, blindingly fast, and unlike any Linux tool I can find, it has a working outliner. VMs are almost trivially easy, too. Win10 is a free download and works usably without registration or activation. > WHAT HAPPEND TO * MINUX VERSION #1 *. I don't understand the question. > PS: I do have a better OS kicking around, Oberon but I need a extra > screen and keyboard for it. I have that -- well, A2 with Bluebottle -- running on the metal on my old Thinkpad X200 (installed via a VM). Awaiting more time to learn and experiment. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 06:08:43 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 13:08:43 +0200 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <000001d3d1a8$60657890$213069b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d3d1a8$60657890$213069b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 11 April 2018 at 17:18, Jay West wrote: > Liam wrote... > https://danluu.com/input-lag/ > > Hey thanks for that link... fun read! High praise indeed! :-) You're very welcome. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Apr 12 06:48:20 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 11:48:20 +0000 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 04/12/2018 02:45 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 04/11/2018 06:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 04/11/2018 02:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I have a nice 18 bit cpu here, with only a few hardware bugs. >>> Hmm would it work better if I change that around ideas. >>> >>> Care to point to a nice 18 bit version of unix or C. >>> BTW The cpu has a frame pointer S but no S++ --S operations >>> so pushing and popping wild data is not a option. >> Well, the Univac 1100/2200 series mainframes ran V7 Unix--and they're >> 36-bit machines, so probably not far from your 18-bitter--and they're >> ones' complement machines. >> >> Univac called it "SX1100", so you have a search term. > Remarkably, Unisys keeps a lot of old documentation around. Here's the > reference manual for their "C" on th 1100: > > https://public.support.unisys.com/2200/docs/cp14.0/pdf/78310422-011.pdf > > Looks pretty much like standard C until you get into the minutiae, such > as "A character constant is 1 to 4 characters" and page 4-4 "Data Types" > (9 bit characters and 36 bit ints and 18 bit short ints). > > So, it should be pretty straightforward unless you assume that a char is > 8 bits, with a signed char having a range of +/-255. > Signed 8 bits would be? -128 to +127. bill From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Apr 12 07:16:58 2018 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 07:16:58 -0500 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20180412121658.GA1824@lonesome.com> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 11:45:07PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Looks pretty much like standard C until you get into the minutiae, such > as "A character constant is 1 to 4 characters" and page 4-4 "Data Types" > (9 bit characters and 36 bit ints and 18 bit short ints). > > So, it should be pretty straightforward unless you assume that a char > is 8 bits, with a signed char having a range of +/-255. "pretty straightforward" Thanks. I needed a laugh. As someone who tries to get/keep a zillion open source packages building on FreeBSD, on non-x86 archs, I constantly refer to a piece of paper that hangs on my wall. It was given to me many years ago at a conference, by its author, Henry Spencer. An annotated version may be found here: https://www.lysator.liu.se/c/ten-commandments.html Of course these days s/VAX/32-bit Linux distro/, but the principle still holds. Finally, for any remaining disbelievers, the most recent update of FreeBSD's toolchain to include Clang version 6, regressed 419 port builds -- on x86 alone. mcl From db at db.net Thu Apr 12 08:23:03 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 09:23:03 -0400 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <20180412121658.GA1824@lonesome.com> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> <20180412121658.GA1824@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20180412132303.GA81058@night.db.net> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 07:16:58AM -0500, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 11:45:07PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Looks pretty much like standard C until you get into the minutiae, such > > as "A character constant is 1 to 4 characters" and page 4-4 "Data Types" > > (9 bit characters and 36 bit ints and 18 bit short ints). ... > "pretty straightforward" > > Thanks. I needed a laugh. > > As someone who tries to get/keep a zillion open source packages building > on FreeBSD, on non-x86 archs, I constantly refer to a piece of paper that > hangs on my wall. It was given to me many years ago at a conference, by > its author, Henry Spencer. An annotated version may be found here: > > https://www.lysator.liu.se/c/ten-commandments.html One of my favourites. Henry is an interesting guy but it has been years since I've talked with him in person. He's also responsible for "The Amazingly Workable Formatter". > > Of course these days s/VAX/32-bit Linux distro/, but the principle still > holds. > > Finally, for any remaining disbelievers, the most recent update of > FreeBSD's toolchain to include Clang version 6, regressed 419 port > builds -- on x86 alone. *chuckle* A pointer isn't just an int anymore now. ;) Amusingly years ago I worked for Computing Devices Canada that used some CDC computers. I was told through a very reliable source that they got Unix ported to the Cyber by SoftQuad based in Toronto. They were well known as a 'troff house' at this time. I'm told they wrote a PDP-11 emulator for the Cyber and that's how they got Unix on the Cyber. ;) > mcl db -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 12 08:55:20 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 09:55:20 -0400 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2018-04-12 7:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > On 04/12/2018 02:45 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 04/11/2018 06:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> On 04/11/2018 02:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> I have a nice 18 bit cpu here, with only a few hardware bugs. >>>> Hmm would it work better if I change that around ideas. >>>> >>>> Care to point to a nice 18 bit version of unix or C. >>>> BTW The cpu has a frame pointer S but no S++ --S operations >>>> so pushing and popping wild data is not a option. >>> Well, the Univac 1100/2200 series mainframes ran V7 Unix--and they're >>> 36-bit machines, so probably not far from your 18-bitter--and they're >>> ones' complement machines. >>> >>> Univac called it "SX1100", so you have a search term. >> Remarkably, Unisys keeps a lot of old documentation around. Here's the >> reference manual for their "C" on th 1100: >> >> https://public.support.unisys.com/2200/docs/cp14.0/pdf/78310422-011.pdf >> >> Looks pretty much like standard C until you get into the minutiae, such >> as "A character constant is 1 to 4 characters" ... Apple also used this extension in their Mac C compilers. >> (9 bit characters and 36 bit ints and 18 bit short ints). >> >> So, it should be pretty straightforward unless you assume that a char is >> 8 bits, with a signed char having a range of +/-255. >> > > Signed 8 bits would be? -128 to +127. Yes, but Chuck was describing the Univac, where char is a 9-bit type, and a signed char is 1 sign bit and 8 magnitude bits, giving +/- 255. --Toby > > bill > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 11:18:27 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 09:18:27 -0700 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <20180412132303.GA81058@night.db.net> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> <20180412121658.GA1824@lonesome.com> <20180412132303.GA81058@night.db.net> Message-ID: On 04/12/2018 06:23 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > Amusingly years ago I worked for Computing Devices Canada that used some > CDC computers. I was told through a very reliable source that they > got Unix ported to the Cyber by SoftQuad based in Toronto. They were > well known as a 'troff house' at this time. I'm told they wrote a PDP-11 > emulator for the Cyber and that's how they got Unix on the Cyber. ;) I could see lots of problems doing it any other way, just from the viewpoint of 'C'. A character on the Cyber 70/170 series is either 6 bits or 12 bits, if extensions are used. That's not to say that in a character string, *all* characters are either 6 bits or 12 bits, but can be a mixture, with certain 6-bit codes used as "escape" codes signaling a 12 bit character code. Two null characters have to be placed in the low-order 12 bits of a word to signal an end of line, so that EOL can be anywhere from 12 to 60 bits. This peculiar convention dates from the time when 6-bit codes were common and included only uppercase letters, digits and a few punctuation. I recall the various papers and proposals that circulated at the time to extend the set. Rather elaborate schemes for packing 8 bit characters into a 60 bit word (7.5 of them), use of 10 and 12 bit codes and the aforementioned 6/12 bit scheme, which was selected because it made the smallest impact to existing programs. Added to that, the machines are ones' complement. And yes, Bill--perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but on SX1100 a char is 8 bits plus sign, hence +/-255, with +/- zeroes. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 12 11:25:16 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 11:25:16 -0500 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ACF886C.7020506@pico-systems.com> On 04/12/2018 05:57 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On 11 April 2018 at 20:21, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I totally agree. I read faster than most people talk and I retain >> more information. I'd much rather read 1,000 words than watch a 3 >> minute video. > Strongly agreed. > > Yes, me too! I HATE these terrible videos with shaky cameras and unprepared presenters. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 12 11:27:07 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 11:27:07 -0500 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5ACF88DB.5010006@pico-systems.com> On 04/12/2018 05:58 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On 11 April 2018 at 23:48, ben wrote: > >> The FREE fpga development software is only under windows. > Some of the older Xilinx software (required to create config files for their older FPGA chips) will not run on a 64-bit platform (either Linux OR Windows) without a lot of fooling around. Their later versions work fine on 64-bit. That was some kind of government ITAR restriction. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 12 15:13:11 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 13:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sizes and negative ints (Was: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> So, it should be pretty straightforward unless you assume that a char is >> 8 bits, with a signed char having a range of +/-255. > Signed 8 bits would be? -128 to +127. Well, he had previously mentioned NINE bits per character. Besides, 9 bits and 18 bits improves the convenience of using octal notation. And not everything uses "2's-Complement" for sign. Using "Sign-Magnitude" would give 8 bits a range of +/-127 There could be some special uses for negative zero. IEEE representation of floating point also has some "special numbers", otherwise we can't have ZERO (although 1 to an maximum "large" negative exponent would be "close", even without the official redefinition), along with using "Sign-Magnitude" for the whole thing, and "bias"/"excess" for handling negative exponents) But, for a bigger example, MS-DOS used a SIGNED (2's-Complement) 32 bit number for file size! Giving files limits of -2147483648 and 2147483647. If you put FFFF FFFF into an MS-DOS directory entry in the file size field, it tells you -1. 00 00 00 80 (little endian byte order for 80000000) gives you -2147483648. Unfortunately, copying a negative sized file onto a disk does not increase free space. Hence the need for Stacker, DBLSPACE, and DRVSPACE while waiting for "Moore's Law" to catch up on disk size. I could never get some of my students to spell "Complement" right. "We've come to NEGATE the variable, not to praise it!" From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 15:37:14 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 13:37:14 -0700 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> <20180412121658.GA1824@lonesome.com> <20180412132303.GA81058@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:18 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 04/12/2018 06:23 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > > \ > I could see lots of problems doing it any other way, just from the > viewpoint of 'C'. A character on the Cyber 70/170 series is either 6 > bits or 12 bits, if extensions are used. That's not to say that in a > character string, *all* characters are either 6 bits or 12 bits, but can > be a mixture, with certain 6-bit codes used as "escape" codes signaling > a 12 bit character code. Two null characters have to be placed in the > low-order 12 bits of a word to signal an end of line, so that EOL can be > anywhere from 12 to 60 bits. > And, if memory serves, the ":" was coded as a null character, causing it to disappear from the end of a line. -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 16:25:31 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:25:31 -0700 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> <20180412121658.GA1824@lonesome.com> <20180412132303.GA81058@night.db.net> Message-ID: On 04/12/2018 01:37 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > And, if memory serves, the ":" was coded as a null character, causing it to > disappear from the end of a line. It depended on which character set you were using. The CDC 63-character set didn't use 00, except as an EOL. Colon was octal 63, which was a percent sign in the 64 character set. There were also CDC graphic and ASCII graphic variants (print trains to match), so that, depending on the print train, double quotation marks came out as "not equal" and vice versa, along with other differences. You learned to read your listings both ways. The "CDC Graphic" set seemed to be more suited to ALGOL programs, which was a bit odd, since FORTRAN was the predominant HLL on those machines. So, for example, the CDC Graphic set has all of the math relationals; EQ, NE, GE, LE, LT GT, as well as the logical operators; OR AND NOT EQUIV, as well as concatenation and up- and down- arrows. This really wasn't any worse than IBM 6 bit character code. Usually, the question came up as "which one?" IBM 1401 codes were not the same as, for example, 7090 codes. The good old days... --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Apr 12 16:28:09 2018 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:28:09 +0000 Subject: Nice Video on the Hershey Fonts Message-ID: Very nice presentation by Frank Griesshammer on the subject of the Hershey Fonts: https://vimeo.com/153653610 He does a superb job explaining how a font invented in 1967 by a mathematical physicist at a US Weapons Lab became essential for the last 40 years of technical writing. And is also an interesting font for actual font designers today :-) Tim N3QE [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.0QZVssVrJ4Ynm3h5opaOeAEsCo&pid=Api] Frank Grie?hammer ? The Hershey Fonts vimeo.com Recorded during TypeCon2015: Condensed in Denver, Colorado In 1967, Dr. A.V. Hershey was working at the U.S. Naval Weapons Laboratory in Virginia; on some of the ... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 12 16:49:25 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 15:49:25 -0600 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <084ea885-9bb6-06d1-76b2-823d3017e957@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/11/2018 10:06 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 6:04 PM, ben wrote: > >> On 4/11/2018 5:21 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:48 PM, ben via cctalk >> > wrote: >>> >>> The FREE fpga development software is only under windows. >>> >>> Xilinx and Altera (now Intel) FPGA development software, including the >>> "free" editions, have run under Linux for many years now. I routinely use >>> them on Fedora and CentOS. >>> >> > >> Any PCB designs I build will use through the hole parts, thus 22V10's will >> be my biggest programable device. > > > Sorry, I thought we were talking about FPGAs. So I buy a pre-made FPGA card, why re-invent the wheel. Then again with my soldering skill's I better do a valve computer. :) Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 12 16:56:06 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 15:56:06 -0600 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <000001d3d1a8$60657890$213069b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <98a904a0-8764-f4fc-dbb3-10c72ab7d2d7@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/12/2018 5:08 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On 11 April 2018 at 17:18, Jay West wrote: >> Liam wrote... >> https://danluu.com/input-lag/ >> >> Hey thanks for that link... fun read! > > High praise indeed! :-) You're very welcome. > But that assumes local character echoing, I am sure the google "search" box must echo to server for every key press. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 12 17:16:01 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 16:16:01 -0600 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9d5ce07c-e5e5-a5ba-e373-4d5649edd7ac@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/12/2018 7:55 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-04-12 7:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 04/12/2018 02:45 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> On 04/11/2018 06:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 04/11/2018 02:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have a nice 18 bit cpu here, with only a few hardware bugs. >>>>> Hmm would it work better if I change that around ideas. >>>>> >>>>> Care to point to a nice 18 bit version of unix or C. >>>>> BTW The cpu has a frame pointer S but no S++ --S operations >>>>> so pushing and popping wild data is not a option. >>>> Well, the Univac 1100/2200 series mainframes ran V7 Unix--and they're >>>> 36-bit machines, so probably not far from your 18-bitter--and they're >>>> ones' complement machines. >>>> >>>> Univac called it "SX1100", so you have a search term. >>> Remarkably, Unisys keeps a lot of old documentation around. Here's the >>> reference manual for their "C" on th 1100: >>> >>> https://public.support.unisys.com/2200/docs/cp14.0/pdf/78310422-011.pdf >>> >>> Looks pretty much like standard C until you get into the minutiae, such >>> as "A character constant is 1 to 4 characters" ... > > Apple also used this extension in their Mac C compilers. > >>> (9 bit characters and 36 bit ints and 18 bit short ints). >>> >>> So, it should be pretty straightforward unless you assume that a char is >>> 8 bits, with a signed char having a range of +/-255. >>> >> >> Signed 8 bits would be? -128 to +127. > > Yes, but Chuck was describing the Univac, where char is a 9-bit type, > and a signed char is 1 sign bit and 8 magnitude bits, giving +/- 255. > > --Toby Well I have one better with my cpu, a char is -128 to 384. Bits #8 and #9 are sign. This way I can use the classic format for single word addressing. Are there any FPGA designs out there for the non 8 bit computers, other than DEC's PDP 7,8,11 and perhaps a PDP 10? Why in hindsight did I not buy 36 front panel switches? Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 19:51:51 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 17:51:51 -0700 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <9d5ce07c-e5e5-a5ba-e373-4d5649edd7ac@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> <9d5ce07c-e5e5-a5ba-e373-4d5649edd7ac@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <167feb64-2217-1878-8431-ed2613fd69a0@sydex.com> On 04/12/2018 03:16 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > Well I have one better with my cpu, a char is -128 to 384. Care to elaborate on why such a lopsided range? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 12 21:15:11 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 20:15:11 -0600 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <167feb64-2217-1878-8431-ed2613fd69a0@sydex.com> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> <9d5ce07c-e5e5-a5ba-e373-4d5649edd7ac@jetnet.ab.ca> <167feb64-2217-1878-8431-ed2613fd69a0@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/2018 6:51 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 04/12/2018 03:16 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> Well I have one better with my cpu, a char is -128 to 384. > > Care to elaborate on why such a lopsided range? > > --Chuck > OK, you forced me to go back to 8 bit unsigned bytes. Not really, but having 8 bit disk IO is tad simpler. Indexing is still -128 to 384 offset. This gives a good sized page 0 and high address (07773xx) i/o out page. Ben. From bygg at cafax.se Fri Apr 13 13:19:52 2018 From: bygg at cafax.se (Johnny Eriksson) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 13:19:52 WET DST Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:21:36 -0400 Message-ID: Ethan Dicks wrote: > There are times when video instruction makes sense - describing, for > example, a chemical reaction that produces major visible change in a > few moments is better to watch than to try to describe. The vast > majority of stuff? Teaching programming? I don't want to watch 2 > hours of someone editing text... give me words and perhaps a > screenshot or two if there's something too complicated to simply write > about. How about language courses on audio cassettes? For instance a course on Macro-10, over several of them? Yes, it does (or at least did) exist. > -ethan --Johnny From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 08:50:23 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:50:23 -0400 Subject: Speed now & then (Space and time?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 7:19 PM, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> There are times when video instruction makes sense... >> ... Teaching programming? I don't want to watch 2 >> hours of someone editing text... g > > How about language courses on audio cassettes? Foreign language? Sure. Programming languages? That would probably drive me nuts. > For instance a course on Macro-10, over several of them? *shudder* > Yes, it does (or at least did) exist. I don't doubt that. Still horrifying to think about sitting through hours of audio to learn a written languange. -ethan From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Apr 14 07:22:00 2018 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 08:22:00 -0400 Subject: DEC DS-32 and IBM Series 1 Message-ID: <20180414122200.GA15269@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Someone in Barnet, North London, post code is EN5 1RJ has two DEC DS-32 drives and IBM Series/1 computer and some drives. Last wording was Sale or swap. You may contact them at stuff at pdp8online.com. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 14 17:23:47 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 15:23:47 -0700 Subject: Stuff in my desk, utterly forgotten Message-ID: I've found a couple more documents lurking in my desk that I've completely forgotten about. The first is a UniSoft Uniplus+ System V User Guide. Circa 1984. Basically a SysV Unix user's guide. I have no idea what platform this was intended for, as it's pretty much a generic document. A couple hundred pages. The second is a sales kit for CMS Enhancements. Nice slick brochures for PC, Apple and Sun. No technical documentation, per se--just something you'd pass out at a trade show (which is probably where I got it). Circa 1990. Includes the brochure for the CMS 386 PC. It'll all fit in a USPS PM envelope, I'm guessing. I want postage only. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Apr 14 18:00:16 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 23:00:16 +0000 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 04/12/2018 09:55 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-04-12 7:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 04/12/2018 02:45 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> On 04/11/2018 06:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 04/11/2018 02:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have a nice 18 bit cpu here, with only a few hardware bugs. >>>>> Hmm would it work better if I change that around ideas. >>>>> >>>>> Care to point to a nice 18 bit version of unix or C. >>>>> BTW The cpu has a frame pointer S but no S++ --S operations >>>>> so pushing and popping wild data is not a option. >>>> Well, the Univac 1100/2200 series mainframes ran V7 Unix--and they're >>>> 36-bit machines, so probably not far from your 18-bitter--and they're >>>> ones' complement machines. >>>> >>>> Univac called it "SX1100", so you have a search term. >>> Remarkably, Unisys keeps a lot of old documentation around. Here's the >>> reference manual for their "C" on th 1100: >>> >>> https://public.support.unisys.com/2200/docs/cp14.0/pdf/78310422-011.pdf >>> >>> Looks pretty much like standard C until you get into the minutiae, such >>> as "A character constant is 1 to 4 characters" ... > Apple also used this extension in their Mac C compilers. > >>> (9 bit characters and 36 bit ints and 18 bit short ints). >>> >>> So, it should be pretty straightforward unless you assume that a char is >>> 8 bits, with a signed char having a range of +/-255. >>> >> Signed 8 bits would be? -128 to +127. > Yes, but Chuck was describing the Univac, where char is a 9-bit type, > and a signed char is 1 sign bit and 8 magnitude bits, giving +/- 255. > I'm familiar with Univac's having worked on the 1100 many moons ago, But look at the line above my comment: ?"you assume that a char is 8 bits, with a signed char having a range of +/-255". An 8 bit signed char has the values -128 to +127, as I stated.? even a 9 bit signed char would not be +/-255 but -256 to +255. bill From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Apr 14 18:49:03 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 19:49:03 -0400 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2018-04-14 7:00 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > ... > I'm familiar with Univac's having worked on the 1100 many moons ago, > But look at the line above my comment: > ?"you assume that a char is 8 bits, with a signed char having a range > of +/-255". > > An 8 bit signed char has the values -128 to +127, as I stated.? even a 9 bit > signed char would not be +/-255 but -256 to +255. Not in one's complement. > > bill > From boris at summitclinic.com Sat Apr 14 20:40:09 2018 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 17:40:09 -0800 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180415014014.63E1D4E88F@mx2.ezwind.net> TAhanks for that link which fits with my measurements (nowhere as detailed) of ones actual ability to do things with "modern" hardware. In the 1980's I was used to being able to measure events with 0.2 microsecond precision using a PDP-11 and my expectation was that the accuracy was only going to improve as processors got faster. I ported a program I wrote on the PDP-11 to a Commodore 64 in 1988 and was using it to measure finger tapping with a switch array to 1 msec accuracy. This was done through the simple expedient of speeding up the sample rate for the keyboard to 1 KHz and the adding in my 4 external switches as "keys". Used a 512 K Mac to get the serial data and display results. To do the same now would require custom hardware to do the timing and a USB link to a "modern" CPU or implimentation on a microprocessor When I attempted to get this same type of timing accuracy from a PC, found out that it was no longer easy to get access to interrupts as easily as before and keyboard latency was longer as now keystrokes were detected by an on board microprocessor and sent out as a series of packets for each keystroke. In DOS and W95 where one could still easily get at interrupts, then a serial port could be used to do msec timing. Once XP and beyond arrived, then the best temporal precision one can expect from a 3 GHz machine is 15 msec. I suspect the same holds for Macs and haven't tried running real time Linux as I either pull out my trusty C64 from time to time and use it for precision timing (unfortunately have only one copy of the code on casette tape so when that goes can't do this anymore) or I use various microprocessors to do the job. Have a nice microsecond precision timer that I wrote for a Propeller chip and feel much more comfortable programming for it than the latest windoze bloatware system. The Propeller has the same amount of RAM as the PDP-11's I started on, runs 20x faster/core and is fun to program. The microsecond timer is attached to a geiger counter to generate random bytes for OTP encryption. Boris Gimbarzevsky >On 29 March 2018 at 19:53, Paul Koning via >cctalk wrote: > > > > It would be fun to do a "generalized Moore's > Law" chart, showing not just transistor count > growth (Moore's subject) but also the many > other scaling changes of computing: disk > capacity, recording density, disk IOPS, disk > bandwidth, ditto those for tape, CPU MIPS, > memory size, memory bandwidth, network bandwidth... > >This is the most telling I've seen in a long time... > >https://danluu.com/input-lag/ > >-- >Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven >Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmaill.com >Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven >UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ??R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 7002 829 053 From pete at petelancashire.com Sat Apr 14 21:43:34 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 19:43:34 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months Message-ID: 3 x DEC Alphas, small deskside models 5 to 6 x Sun pizza boxes one a Sparc 1 prototype 029 IBM Keypunch The day I can have a 15 cubic yard scrap metal drop box the stuff will start to be tossed in. All based on when the rains stop and the ground is hard enough I can't want much longer For those that have not seen me post this before The stuff is near (3 - 4 miles outside of) Banks Oregon USA (look it up on Google). I CAN NOT LIFT OVER 10 LBS, PERIOD. -pete From dave at 661.org Sun Apr 15 09:25:57 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 14:25:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: CMOS for NMOS Message-ID: I'm pondering upgrading the CPU of a Pacccomm Tiny-2 Mk2 radio packet controller from a 6Mhz Z80 processor and SIO to 10Mhz parts. My problem is that the parts already in it appear to be NMOS. The family is still being made by Zilog, but for 10Mhz parts, CMOS is all they have. Can I just drop in CMOS, change out the crystal/oscillator and have things work as expected? Here's what are fitted to my TNC. Z84C00BB6 Z80BCPU 29125 Z8440BB1 Z80BSIO-O 29014 -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bear at typewritten.org Sun Apr 15 01:28:02 2018 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 23:28:02 -0700 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <325201A1-FC0C-4822-B1A2-45FFC073C704@typewritten.org> On Apr 14, 2018, at 4:00 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: > I'm familiar with Univac's having worked on the 1100 many moons ago, > But look at the line above my comment: > "you assume that a char is 8 bits, with a signed char having a range > of +/-255". > > An 8 bit signed char has the values -128 to +127, as I stated. even a 9 bit > signed char would not be +/-255 but -256 to +255. Doesn't the 1100 use one's complement? -0 != 0, so AFAICT it's still +/-255. ok bear. -- until further notice From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Apr 15 09:44:48 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 14:44:48 +0000 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <325201A1-FC0C-4822-B1A2-45FFC073C704@typewritten.org> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> <325201A1-FC0C-4822-B1A2-45FFC073C704@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On 04/15/2018 02:28 AM, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > On Apr 14, 2018, at 4:00 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: > >> I'm familiar with Univac's having worked on the 1100 many moons ago, >> But look at the line above my comment: >> "you assume that a char is 8 bits, with a signed char having a range >> of +/-255". >> >> An 8 bit signed char has the values -128 to +127, as I stated. even a 9 bit >> signed char would not be +/-255 but -256 to +255. > Doesn't the 1100 use one's complement? -0 != 0, so AFAICT it's still +/-255. > Can't remember that.? It's over 30 years since my 1100 days. I do remember it wasn't an ASCII machine, however.? good ole Fielddata. bill From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Sun Apr 15 10:02:16 2018 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 17:02:16 +0200 Subject: Tektronix 405 diagnostic Rom Pack copies available. Message-ID: <7cc53722-29e6-7f0a-8619-ded165646b71@greenmail.ch> As mentioned before , i made a functional copy of the Tektronix 4052 Diagnostic Rom Pack . PCB's are back, units do work ( minus a small issue with the wrong orientation of the LED's ) Go to ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/TEK_DRP ?and find my dokumentation DiagPack_Manual.pdf , decide if this is what you want, and order ( or not...) Also please read the original TEK doku TEK4052_4054_Diagnostic_Rom_Pack.pdf in order to understand what this unit can and cannot do. Prices, in short : PCB only 20 Euro/25 USD, populated and tested 60/75, add 20/25 for a fitting 3D printed casing. And do feel free to construct your own with the data from my FTP site. This pack should also work on the 4054, but since I do not have such a machine this feature is untested. Jos, now wondering whether I will ever sell the 20 PCB's I have... From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Apr 15 10:16:03 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 08:16:03 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3499B37F-E65F-45F7-8531-09F591CB1C35@snowmoose.com> Do you know the size/models of the Alpha systems? I want to make sure they will fit in my car. alan > On Apr 14, 2018, at 7:43 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > > 3 x DEC Alphas, small deskside models > > 5 to 6 x Sun pizza boxes one a Sparc 1 prototype > > 029 IBM Keypunch > > The day I can have a 15 cubic yard scrap metal drop box the stuff will > start to be tossed in. > > All based on when the rains stop and the ground is hard enough > > I can't want much longer > > For those that have not seen me post this before > > The stuff is near (3 - 4 miles outside of) Banks Oregon USA (look it up on > Google). > > I CAN NOT LIFT OVER 10 LBS, PERIOD. > > -pete From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Apr 15 10:26:56 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 08:26:56 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <3499B37F-E65F-45F7-8531-09F591CB1C35@snowmoose.com> References: <3499B37F-E65F-45F7-8531-09F591CB1C35@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: https://photos.app.goo.gl/eYVej7Sg7GSk9Mv72 On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 8:16 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Do you know the size/models of the Alpha systems? I want to make sure they > will fit in my car. > > alan > > > On Apr 14, 2018, at 7:43 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > 3 x DEC Alphas, small deskside models > > > > 5 to 6 x Sun pizza boxes one a Sparc 1 prototype > > > > 029 IBM Keypunch > > > > The day I can have a 15 cubic yard scrap metal drop box the stuff will > > start to be tossed in. > > > > All based on when the rains stop and the ground is hard enough > > > > I can't want much longer > > > > For those that have not seen me post this before > > > > The stuff is near (3 - 4 miles outside of) Banks Oregon USA (look it up > on > > Google). > > > > I CAN NOT LIFT OVER 10 LBS, PERIOD. > > > > -pete > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 15 11:34:07 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:34:07 -0700 Subject: CMOS for NMOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27c47ede-c5ea-1de3-0ce1-6dea75ea096d@sydex.com> On 04/15/2018 07:25 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > I'm pondering upgrading the CPU of a Pacccomm Tiny-2 Mk2 radio packet > controller from a 6Mhz Z80 processor and SIO to 10Mhz parts.? My problem > is that the parts already in it appear to be NMOS.? The family is still > being made by Zilog, but for 10Mhz parts, CMOS is all they have.? Can I > just drop in CMOS, change out the crystal/oscillator and have things > work as expected? The I/O on the NMOS Z80A chips is TTL-compatible. You should have little problem dropping in the CMOS version. The same applies for similar chips, such as the 80C85/8085, 80C86/8086, etc. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Apr 15 12:44:13 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 13:44:13 -0400 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <3499B37F-E65F-45F7-8531-09F591CB1C35@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# ? In a message dated 4/15/2018 8:16:26 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > 029 IBM Keypunch From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Apr 15 13:30:19 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 18:30:19 +0000 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# > > Me too.? I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. bill From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Apr 15 13:37:03 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 11:37:03 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# >> >> > Me too.? I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check out their condition. alan > > bill > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Apr 15 13:59:43 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 18:59:43 +0000 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>> wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# >>> >> Me too.? I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. > > Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. > I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check > out their condition. Wrong side of the country.? Scranton, PA.? And if they are as sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost of shipping one would be very prohibitive. bill From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Apr 15 14:10:58 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 15:10:58 -0400 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <162cab7acbe-19aa-2493@webjas-vad002.srv.aolmail.net> Yea, ?the Alphas? are ?cool, ?but ?what ?we would like is a full size ?card punch we ?can sit a ?kid in front of and let ?them experience... "Old School Data Entry!" ? Somehow the Wright-Line ?hand held ?correcting Punch ?does ?not have the ?same effect! ? Ed# www.smecc.org ? In a message dated 4/15/2018 11:59:49 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>> wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# >>> >> Me too.? I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. > > Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. > I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check > out their condition. Wrong side of the country.? Scranton, PA.? And if they are as sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost of shipping one would be very prohibitive. bill From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Apr 15 14:30:44 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 12:30:44 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> On 4/15/18 11:59 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>>> wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# >>>> >>> Me too.? I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. >> Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. >> I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check >> out their condition. > Wrong side of the country.? Scranton, PA.? And if they are as > sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost > of shipping one would be very prohibitive. Are you willing to drive to Wellsboro, PA for one or two? I am heading down to PDX because I am a motorsports official. The first weekend of June, the series will be in Wellsboro. If you are interested, I? can see if one of the teams is willing to haul one or two Alphas that way. alan > > bill > From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Apr 15 14:40:59 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 12:40:59 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <162cab7acbe-19aa-2493@webjas-vad002.srv.aolmail.net> References: <162cab7acbe-19aa-2493@webjas-vad002.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <27f73d51-149b-178d-6a45-783451ef9e51@snowmoose.com> How big is the keypunch? Where are you? I am willing to make a second trip down (I am in the Seattle area), hold stuff and arrange for shipping. I just don't want stuff to get scrapped. alan On 4/15/18 12:10 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > Yea, ?the Alphas? are ?cool, ?but ?what ?we would like is a full size ?card punch we ?can sit a ?kid in front of and let ?them experience... "Old School Data Entry!" > > Somehow the Wright-Line ?hand held ?correcting Punch ?does ?not have the ?same effect! > > Ed# www.smecc.org > > In a message dated 4/15/2018 11:59:49 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > > On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>>> wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# >>>> >>> Me too.? I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. >> Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. >> I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check >> out their condition. > Wrong side of the country.? Scranton, PA.? And if they are as > sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost > of shipping one would be very prohibitive. > > bill > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Apr 15 14:57:46 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 15:57:46 -0400 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <27f73d51-149b-178d-6a45-783451ef9e51@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <162cae2830d-1798-33557@webjas-vad168.srv.aolmail.net> Alan - that key punch is desk size and ?we are in AZ~ Ed# ? In a message dated 4/15/2018 12:41:07 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? How big is the keypunch? Where are you? I am willing to make a second trip down (I am in the Seattle area), hold stuff and arrange for shipping. I just don't want stuff to get scrapped. alan On 4/15/18 12:10 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > Yea, ?the Alphas? are ?cool, ?but ?what ?we would like is a full size ?card punch we ?can sit a ?kid in front of and let ?them experience... "Old School Data Entry!" > > Somehow the Wright-Line ?hand held ?correcting Punch ?does ?not have the ?same effect! > > Ed# www.smecc.org > > In a message dated 4/15/2018 11:59:49 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > > On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>>> wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# >>>> >>> Me too.? I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. >> Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. >> I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check >> out their condition. > Wrong side of the country.? Scranton, PA.? And if they are as > sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost > of shipping one would be very prohibitive. > > bill > From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Sun Apr 15 15:58:55 2018 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 15:58:55 -0500 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <3499B37F-E65F-45F7-8531-09F591CB1C35@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 4/15/2018 10:26 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > https://photos.app.goo.gl/eYVej7Sg7GSk9Mv72 > > On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 8:16 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Do you know the size/models of the Alpha systems? I want to make sure they >> will fit in my car. >> >> alan >> >>> On Apr 14, 2018, at 7:43 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> 3 x DEC Alphas, small deskside models >>> They look like Compaq DS20E's in desk side format. At first I thought they were Alphaserver 800's which look similar, but the AS800 would DEC and too early for Compaq. I wouldn't mind having one but I'm in Fort Worth, TX. I'll be working in Seattle 4/25 - 5/2 but flying so I sure can't transport one. Packing one securely would be a pain, but ground shipping would probably "only" run about $100 or so. From shumaker at att.net Sun Apr 15 16:06:10 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 14:06:10 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 4/15/2018 11:37 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>> wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# >>> >> Me too.? I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. > > Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. > I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check > out their condition. > > alan > >> >> bill >> > > From shumaker at att.net Sun Apr 15 16:11:42 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 14:11:42 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <27f73d51-149b-178d-6a45-783451ef9e51@snowmoose.com> References: <162cab7acbe-19aa-2493@webjas-vad002.srv.aolmail.net> <27f73d51-149b-178d-6a45-783451ef9e51@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: OK...?? I'll speak up.?? If no one claims the keypunch, I want it if you're able to pick it up and hold it for a few months. Steve Shumaker Boulder Creek On 4/15/2018 12:40 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > How big is the keypunch? Where are you? > > I am willing to make a second trip down (I am in the Seattle area), > hold stuff and arrange for shipping. I just don't want stuff to get > scrapped. > > alan > > On 4/15/18 12:10 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> Yea, ?the Alphas? are ?cool, ?but ?what ?we would like is a full size >> ?card punch we ?can sit a ?kid in front of and let ?them >> experience... "Old School Data Entry!" >> ? Somehow the Wright-Line ?hand held ?correcting Punch ?does ?not >> have the ?same effect! >> ? Ed# www.smecc.org >> ? In a message dated 4/15/2018 11:59:49 AM US Mountain Standard Time, >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> >> >> On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>>>> wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# >>>>> >>>> Me too.? I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. >>> Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. >>> I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check >>> out their condition. >> Wrong side of the country.? Scranton, PA.? And if they are as >> sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost >> of shipping one would be very prohibitive. >> >> bill >> > > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Apr 15 16:25:10 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 17:25:10 -0400 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <162cb32894f-179d-25cdd@webjas-vaa184.srv.aolmail.net> we ahead if you in line steve in Boulder creek...... thanis Alan... yeah there has to be a way to mahe this work!!! thanks Ed. at smecc Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, April 15, 2018 steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: OK...?? I'll speak up.?? If no one claims the keypunch, I want it if you're able to pick it up and hold it for a few months. Steve Shumaker Boulder Creek On 4/15/2018 12:40 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > How big is the keypunch? Where are you? > > I am willing to make a second trip down (I am in the Seattle area), > hold stuff and arrange for shipping. I just don't want stuff to get > scrapped. > > alan > > On 4/15/18 12:10 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> Yea, ?the Alphas? are ?cool, ?but ?what ?we would like is a full size >> ?card punch we ?can sit a ?kid in front of and let ?them >> experience... "Old School Data Entry!" >> ? Somehow the Wright-Line ?hand held ?correcting Punch ?does ?not >> have the ?same effect! >> ? Ed# www.smecc.org >> ? In a message dated 4/15/2018 11:59:49 AM US Mountain Standard Time, >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> >> >> On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>>>> wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# >>>>> >>>> Me too.? I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. >>> Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. >>> I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check >>> out their condition. >> Wrong side of the country.? Scranton, PA.? And if they are as >> sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost >> of shipping one would be very prohibitive. >> >> bill >> > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 15 17:38:14 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 18:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months Message-ID: <20180415223814.905D118C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ed Sharpe > wish this was closer! Two words: "ROAD TRIP!!!" :-) (I did Virginia<->Wisconsin to save an -11/84... That was a hike!) Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Apr 15 17:43:53 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 22:43:53 +0000 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 04/15/2018 03:30 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/15/18 11:59 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>>>> wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# >>>>> >>>> Me too.? I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. >>> Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. >>> I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check >>> out their condition. >> Wrong side of the country.? Scranton, PA.? And if they are as >> sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost >> of shipping one would be very prohibitive. > > Are you willing to drive to Wellsboro, PA for one or two? I am heading > down to PDX because I am a motorsports official. The first weekend of > June, the series will be in Wellsboro. If you are interested, I? can > see if one of the teams is willing to haul one or two Alphas that way. > Yeah, I could probably do Wellsboro.? It's? about halfway across the state from here. One, two or three.? If I can't use them I? have a lot of contacts with other people trying to find machines for VMS Hobbyist program.? They will have good homes. bill From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 18:04:03 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 19:04:03 -0400 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: If anyone is making their way to VCF East, I'd be interested in saving the SPARCstations from the recycler. Thanks, Jonathan On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 6:43 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 04/15/2018 03:30 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 4/15/18 11:59 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >>>> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > >>>>> wish this was closer! ed# > >>>>> > >>>> Me too. I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. > >>> Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. > >>> I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check > >>> out their condition. > >> Wrong side of the country. Scranton, PA. And if they are as > >> sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost > >> of shipping one would be very prohibitive. > > > > Are you willing to drive to Wellsboro, PA for one or two? I am heading > > down to PDX because I am a motorsports official. The first weekend of > > June, the series will be in Wellsboro. If you are interested, I can > > see if one of the teams is willing to haul one or two Alphas that way. > > > > Yeah, I could probably do Wellsboro. It's about halfway across the > state from here. > One, two or three. If I can't use them I have a lot of contacts with > other people trying > to find machines for VMS Hobbyist program. They will have good homes. > > bill > > > From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Apr 15 18:12:39 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 16:12:39 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: The SPARC boxes are safe from the recycler. Those are the ones that I am primarily interested in. But I have lots of Sun boxes, so I am willing to share. alan On 4/15/18 4:04 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > If anyone is making their way to VCF East, I'd be interested in saving the > SPARCstations from the recycler. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 6:43 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> On 04/15/2018 03:30 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 4/15/18 11:59 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>>>> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>>>>>> wish this was closer! ed# >>>>>>> >>>>>> Me too. I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. >>>>> Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. >>>>> I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check >>>>> out their condition. >>>> Wrong side of the country. Scranton, PA. And if they are as >>>> sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost >>>> of shipping one would be very prohibitive. >>> Are you willing to drive to Wellsboro, PA for one or two? I am heading >>> down to PDX because I am a motorsports official. The first weekend of >>> June, the series will be in Wellsboro. If you are interested, I can >>> see if one of the teams is willing to haul one or two Alphas that way. >>> >> Yeah, I could probably do Wellsboro. It's about halfway across the >> state from here. >> One, two or three. If I can't use them I have a lot of contacts with >> other people trying >> to find machines for VMS Hobbyist program. They will have good homes. >> >> bill >> >> >> From cube1 at charter.net Sun Apr 15 18:47:19 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 18:47:19 -0500 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> <325201A1-FC0C-4822-B1A2-45FFC073C704@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <0FB4A6DC-454C-4036-9D05-BD37F18F2804@charter.net> > On Apr 15, 2018, at 09:44, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On 04/15/2018 02:28 AM, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: >>> On Apr 14, 2018, at 4:00 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: >>> >>> I'm familiar with Univac's having worked on the 1100 many moons ago, >>> But look at the line above my comment: >>> "you assume that a char is 8 bits, with a signed char having a range >>> of +/-255". >>> >>> An 8 bit signed char has the values -128 to +127, as I stated. even a 9 bit >>> signed char would not be +/-255 but -256 to +255. >> Doesn't the 1100 use one's complement? -0 != 0, so AFAICT it's still +/-255. >> > Can't remember that. It's over 30 years since my 1100 days. > > I do remember it wasn't an ASCII machine, however. good ole Fielddata. > > bill > Yes, the Univac 1100 series were one?s complement (had brief experience as a student with 1108 and 1110 from 1969 to 1975) Sent from my iPad From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 19:07:28 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 20:07:28 -0400 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Oh, I don't need them in particular, I just really enjoy fixing them up! As long as they're not going to be junked. Thanks, Jonathan On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 7:12 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The SPARC boxes are safe from the recycler. Those are the ones that I am > primarily interested in. But I have lots of Sun boxes, so I am willing to > share. > > alan > > > On 4/15/18 4:04 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > >> If anyone is making their way to VCF East, I'd be interested in saving the >> SPARCstations from the recycler. >> >> Thanks, >> Jonathan >> >> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 6:43 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> >>> On 04/15/2018 03:30 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 4/15/18 11:59 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wish this was closer! ed# >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Me too. I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. >>>>>> I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check >>>>>> out their condition. >>>>>> >>>>> Wrong side of the country. Scranton, PA. And if they are as >>>>> sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost >>>>> of shipping one would be very prohibitive. >>>>> >>>> Are you willing to drive to Wellsboro, PA for one or two? I am heading >>>> down to PDX because I am a motorsports official. The first weekend of >>>> June, the series will be in Wellsboro. If you are interested, I can >>>> see if one of the teams is willing to haul one or two Alphas that way. >>>> >>>> Yeah, I could probably do Wellsboro. It's about halfway across the >>> state from here. >>> One, two or three. If I can't use them I have a lot of contacts with >>> other people trying >>> to find machines for VMS Hobbyist program. They will have good homes. >>> >>> bill >>> >>> >>> >>> > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 15 19:07:32 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 17:07:32 -0700 Subject: 18 bit CPU; was: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <0FB4A6DC-454C-4036-9D05-BD37F18F2804@charter.net> References: <5ABD9A43.4010208@pico-systems.com> <20180330030727.GB15201@lonesome.com> <20180330113246.fogqwhztye7quxee@mooli.org.uk> <98ef21e4-78b6-063c-50b1-ab9b680508e0@jetnet.ab.ca> <554ae880-591c-5429-a658-d9ef6648fb4e@sydex.com> <325201A1-FC0C-4822-B1A2-45FFC073C704@typewritten.org> <0FB4A6DC-454C-4036-9D05-BD37F18F2804@charter.net> Message-ID: <5205a4b2-d558-e9f5-f1a3-40be24c0df71@sydex.com> On 04/15/2018 04:47 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Yes, the Univac 1100 series were one?s complement (had brief experience as a student with 1108 and 1110 from 1969 to 1975) I thought I'd originally said as much. 9 bit characters with a range of +/-255 as well as +/- zero. Here are some cool coding tricks for the 1100 series: https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/univac/cute_tricks.html Similar tricks exist for the ones' complement CDC 6000 series. --Chuck From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 19:08:54 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 20:08:54 -0400 Subject: CMOS for NMOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/15/2018 10:25 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > I'm pondering upgrading the CPU of a Pacccomm Tiny-2 Mk2 radio packet > controller from a 6Mhz Z80 processor and SIO to 10Mhz parts.? My > problem is that the parts already in it appear to be NMOS.? The family > is still being made by Zilog, but for 10Mhz parts, CMOS is all they > have.? Can I just drop in CMOS, change out the crystal/oscillator and > have things work as expected? > No, and why? Changing to CMOS can cut power drain.? However speeding up clocks can make the packet controller broken even if it runs!? If you keep the 6mhz clock all will be fine. You do not want to alter the output data rate to the modem side.? Also the other devices on the bus have to be able to run at 10mhz. I have in the past upgraded my AmproLB+ to CMOS but that was to lower power needs for battery operation.? However there was no intent to go faster. Allison > Here's what are fitted to my TNC. > > Z84C00BB6 > Z80BCPU > 29125 > > Z8440BB1 > Z80BSIO-O > 29014 > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 15 19:24:35 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 17:24:35 -0700 Subject: CMOS for NMOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d74dfa0-b8e9-99ce-2b82-cde70c9e1751@sydex.com> On 04/15/2018 05:08 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 04/15/2018 10:25 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> >> I'm pondering upgrading the CPU of a Pacccomm Tiny-2 Mk2 radio packet >> controller from a 6Mhz Z80 processor and SIO to 10Mhz parts.? My >> problem is that the parts already in it appear to be NMOS.? The family >> is still being made by Zilog, but for 10Mhz parts, CMOS is all they >> have.? Can I just drop in CMOS, change out the crystal/oscillator and >> have things work as expected? >> > No, and why? > > Changing to CMOS can cut power drain.? However speeding up clocks can > make the packet controller > broken even if it runs!? If you keep the 6mhz clock all will be fine. Quite correct, Allison. I confined my answer to "Can I drop a CMOS Z80 into an NMOS Z80 socket?" And in particular, why not run the 10MHz part at the original 4MHz or whatever? A 10MHz part doesn't mean that it has to run at 10MHz. As to the rest of the question, I confess that I was blind. --Chuck From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Apr 15 20:42:50 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 18:42:50 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Other names via cctalk Ed Sharpesteve shumaker *Noel Chiappa* *John H. Reinhardt* First of, I am sorry for any additional noise on CCTALK. I will find out who replied first on each of the group of equipment. To keep the noise down if you name is above contact me directly then I can keep CCTALK out of the loop Once I have that I will let the 'group' know. Again I CAN NOT lift anything. The stuff is 25 miles from where I live. My partisipatoin will be limited to one thing, pointing out where the stuff is. The Suns are easy to get to. The Alphas will require moving about 300-500 lbs of other junk to make a path for a hand truck The 029 IS HEAVY, how much I can't remember but at least 200 more like 300 LBS and it will wil require moving another 200+ LBS of stuff out of the way. So we are looking at someone needing to move up to 1/2 TON of junk. Again all I can do is watch. The ground where the stuff is can not be driven on, a car will sink in the mud, The driveway is about 100-200 feet from the door. So the stuff will have to be carried and or maneuvered on a hand truck to the driveway. I will get back by tomorrow. -pete On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 7:43 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > 3 x DEC Alphas, small deskside models > > 5 to 6 x Sun pizza boxes one a Sparc 1 prototype > > 029 IBM Keypunch > > The day I can have a 15 cubic yard scrap metal drop box the stuff will > start to be tossed in. > > All based on when the rains stop and the ground is hard enough > > I can't want much longer > > For those that have not seen me post this before > > The stuff is near (3 - 4 miles outside of) Banks Oregon USA (look it up on > Google). > > I CAN NOT LIFT OVER 10 LBS, PERIOD. > > -pete > From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Apr 15 21:09:24 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 19:09:24 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I need to add - I can not provide labor, if you can't move it your self or like the 029 you will need to hire someone at your own time and expense. The 029 CAN NOT be moved by one person. I may have been a bit low on how much will need to be moved to get the 029 out the front door, lets say 400 to 600 additional LBS of stuff will need to be moved. -pete On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 7:43 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > 3 x DEC Alphas, small deskside models > > 5 to 6 x Sun pizza boxes one a Sparc 1 prototype > > 029 IBM Keypunch > > The day I can have a 15 cubic yard scrap metal drop box the stuff will > start to be tossed in. > > All based on when the rains stop and the ground is hard enough > > I can't want much longer > > For those that have not seen me post this before > > The stuff is near (3 - 4 miles outside of) Banks Oregon USA (look it up on > Google). > > I CAN NOT LIFT OVER 10 LBS, PERIOD. > > -pete > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Apr 15 21:47:39 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 22:47:39 -0400 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <162cc59c729-1799-d47f@webjas-vae238.srv.aolmail.net> yepper one heavy monster. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, April 15, 2018 Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: I need to add - I can not provide labor, if you can't move it your self or like the 029 you will need to hire someone at your own time and expense. The 029 CAN NOT be moved by one person. I may have been a bit low on how much will need to be moved to get the 029 out the front door, lets say 400 to 600 additional LBS of stuff will need to be moved. -pete On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 7:43 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > 3 x DEC Alphas, small deskside models > > 5 to 6 x Sun pizza boxes one a Sparc 1 prototype > > 029 IBM Keypunch > > The day I can have a 15 cubic yard scrap metal drop box the stuff will > start to be tossed in. > > All based on when the rains stop and the ground is hard enough > > I can't want much longer > > For those that have not seen me post this before > > The stuff is near (3 - 4 miles outside of) Banks Oregon USA (look it up on > Google). > > I CAN NOT LIFT OVER 10 LBS, PERIOD. > > -pete > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sun Apr 15 22:19:48 2018 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 22:19:48 -0500 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/15/2018 8:42 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > Other names via cctalk > > Ed Sharpesteve shumaker > *Noel Chiappa* > *John H. Reinhardt* > > First of, I am sorry for any additional noise on CCTALK. > > I will find out who replied first on each of the group of equipment. To > keep the noise down if you name is above contact me directly then I can > keep CCTALK out of the loop > Pete, I'll keep this public so that everyone concerned can see. I was just commenting. I just moved from Ohio to Texas and just literally gave away a whole basement of DEC and other gear. I'm not in any position to start collecting again - as much as I'd like a probable dual processor Alpha. Please give them to Alan (Perry) if he was first so he can give them to Bill (Gunshannon). I know Bill from the comp.os.vms newsgroup and he's a stand up guy so if he has people that want them, he's a good target. -- John H. Reinhardt From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 01:02:21 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 23:02:21 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <3499B37F-E65F-45F7-8531-09F591CB1C35@snowmoose.com> References: <3499B37F-E65F-45F7-8531-09F591CB1C35@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <01ad01d3d548$7c9aaeb0$75d00c10$@gmail.com> Alan, Saw your comment on my YouTube channel about the 029 size and weight. You can reach me right here too if you want. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alan Perry via cctalk Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 8:16 AM To: Pete Lancashire; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months Do you know the size/models of the Alpha systems? I want to make sure they will fit in my car. alan > On Apr 14, 2018, at 7:43 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > > 3 x DEC Alphas, small deskside models > > 5 to 6 x Sun pizza boxes one a Sparc 1 prototype > > 029 IBM Keypunch > > The day I can have a 15 cubic yard scrap metal drop box the stuff will > start to be tossed in. > > All based on when the rains stop and the ground is hard enough > > I can't want much longer > > For those that have not seen me post this before > > The stuff is near (3 - 4 miles outside of) Banks Oregon USA (look it up on > Google). > > I CAN NOT LIFT OVER 10 LBS, PERIOD. > > -pete From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 01:03:50 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 23:03:50 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <01ad01d3d548$7c9aaeb0$75d00c10$@gmail.com> References: <3499B37F-E65F-45F7-8531-09F591CB1C35@snowmoose.com> <01ad01d3d548$7c9aaeb0$75d00c10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01ae01d3d548$b182fe70$1488fb50$@gmail.com> And by the way, you'll be glad to know that the answer is 230 lbs for an 029. Marc -----Original Message----- From: CuriousMarc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:02 PM To: 'Alan Perry'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; 'Pete Lancashire' Subject: RE: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months Alan, Saw your comment on my YouTube channel about the 029 size and weight. You can reach me right here too if you want. Marc From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 02:08:59 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 00:08:59 -0700 Subject: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip Message-ID: <023401d3d551$cb9f0520$62dd0f60$@gmail.com> After battling for days with a Dolch 65 that developed the two-tone beep-of-death on boot, I finally found that it's just my BIOS ROM that has gone bad. The BIOS happens to be an Award BIOS, says "Award 1998 PCI/PNP 686" on the chip. It's a square chip with pins on the side. Photo here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OtZ1AU0Hac8RlzTgbgCY4z_qcMlGWXu1 So I thought I might just ask. Anyone has a dead Dolch 65 motherboard from which I could steal a BIOS chip. The board is actually an Advantech CI6BM-B1 industrial single board computer. Or alternately, can someone identify what kind of ROM or EEPROM that likely is, and provide advice on how to read the data from a good chip (I have another good chip in another Dolch, that's how I found out what my problem was), and program a similar chip. Marc From henry.bnd at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 03:05:36 2018 From: henry.bnd at gmail.com (Henry Bond) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 08:05:36 +0000 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <01ae01d3d548$b182fe70$1488fb50$@gmail.com> References: <3499B37F-E65F-45F7-8531-09F591CB1C35@snowmoose.com> <01ad01d3d548$7c9aaeb0$75d00c10$@gmail.com> <01ae01d3d548$b182fe70$1488fb50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: How much to ship sparcstations to philly area, long drive see! Henry On Mon, 16 Apr 2018, 07:03 CuriousMarc via cctalk, wrote: > And by the way, you'll be glad to know that the answer is 230 lbs for an > 029. > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: CuriousMarc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:02 PM > To: 'Alan Perry'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; 'Pete > Lancashire' > Subject: RE: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months > > Alan, > Saw your comment on my YouTube channel about the 029 size and weight. You > can reach me right here too if you want. > Marc > > > > From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Apr 16 06:23:08 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:23:08 +0200 Subject: CMOS for NMOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180416112308.GB14861@beast.freibergnet.de> allison via cctalk wrote: > On 04/15/2018 10:25 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > > > I'm pondering upgrading the CPU of a Pacccomm Tiny-2 Mk2 radio packet > > controller from a 6Mhz Z80 processor and SIO to 10Mhz parts.? My > > problem is that the parts already in it appear to be NMOS.? The family > > is still being made by Zilog, but for 10Mhz parts, CMOS is all they > > have.? Can I just drop in CMOS, change out the crystal/oscillator and > > have things work as expected? > > > No, and why? > > Changing to CMOS can cut power drain.? However speeding up clocks can > make the packet controller > broken even if it runs!? If you keep the 6mhz clock all will be fine. > > You do not want to alter the output data rate to the modem side.? Also > the other devices on the bus have > to be able to run at 10mhz. > > I have in the past upgraded my AmproLB+ to CMOS but that was to lower > power needs for > battery operation.? However there was no intent to go faster. > > > Allison > > > > Here's what are fitted to my TNC. > > > > Z84C00BB6 > > Z80BCPU > > 29125 > > > > Z8440BB1 > > Z80BSIO-O > > 29014 > > Power drain? ..just not interresting here. Electrically there is no problem changing an Z80 NMOS Part against an CMOS Version, but you are right in sight of the speeds of the serial connections. Z84C00 ..is an CMOS Variant of the CPU, Z8440 is the NMOS Version of the SIO ..but.. The Z80 Processor needs external memory Parts, RAM and EPROM mostly, I don't think that the manufacurer of the TNC has fitted faster Parts as neccessary since they are much more expensive. Given that, you would not only get an unit that works with wrong speeds over serial lines, I would expect an just "not working" unit... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From dave at 661.org Mon Apr 16 07:34:56 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 12:34:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: motorola's chip page Message-ID: Does anyone know where Motorola's current production chips are described? http://www.motorola.com/General/prodport.html only partially works and search is entirely broken because http://search.motorola.com no longer exists. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 07:41:54 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 08:41:54 -0400 Subject: CMOS for NMOS In-Reply-To: <20180416112308.GB14861@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20180416112308.GB14861@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <6d2d3156-e8ba-fe8f-1ed9-6157df052c1d@gmail.com> On 04/16/2018 07:23 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > allison via cctalk wrote: > >> On 04/15/2018 10:25 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >>> I'm pondering upgrading the CPU of a Pacccomm Tiny-2 Mk2 radio packet >>> controller from a 6Mhz Z80 processor and SIO to 10Mhz parts.? My >>> problem is that the parts already in it appear to be NMOS.? The family >>> is still being made by Zilog, but for 10Mhz parts, CMOS is all they >>> have.? Can I just drop in CMOS, change out the crystal/oscillator and >>> have things work as expected? >>> >> No, and why? >> >> Changing to CMOS can cut power drain.? However speeding up clocks can >> make the packet controller >> broken even if it runs!? If you keep the 6mhz clock all will be fine. >> >> You do not want to alter the output data rate to the modem side.? Also >> the other devices on the bus have >> to be able to run at 10mhz. >> >> I have in the past upgraded my AmproLB+ to CMOS but that was to lower >> power needs for >> battery operation.? However there was no intent to go faster. >> >> >> Allison >> >> >>> Here's what are fitted to my TNC. >>> >>> Z84C00BB6 >>> Z80BCPU >>> 29125 >>> >>> Z8440BB1 >>> Z80BSIO-O >>> 29014 >>> > Power drain? ..just not interresting here. Electrically there is no problem > changing an Z80 NMOS Part against an CMOS Version, but you are right in > sight of the speeds of the serial connections. > > Z84C00 ..is an CMOS Variant of the CPU, Z8440 is the NMOS Version of the > SIO ..but.. > The Z80 Processor needs external memory Parts, RAM and EPROM mostly, > I don't think that the manufacurer of the TNC has fitted faster Parts as > neccessary since they are much more expensive. > Given that, you would not only get an unit that works with wrong speeds > over serial lines, I would expect an just "not working" unit... As a radio amateur and engineer in the communications realm, and embedded systems designer I know the CMOS Z80 family well.? I even have a tube of the 84C0010 (CMOS 10mhz Z80 with 1k ram and Clock Controller) which of all the 40 pin z80s is likely the ultimate part.? I designed with it a a long time ago and was an early adopter. Changing up to CMOS z80 makes sense if... you wish to reduce power, or you want to go faster, or you need a bit more operating temperature headroom. For logic levels its fully compatible save for you may not use all the capability. However in most TNCs and unless the modem side (for the RF interface)) is separately crystal controlled going faster will very likely break the unit. Why?? Ram/ROM must keep up and all the peripherals have to as well.?? An oddity of Z80 systems is that while fast Z80s were common enough the peripherals often needed added wait states for interrupt propagation and some did not have the needed speed on the bus requiring added wait states for IO.? Then we have the non z80 peripherals like the modem that may require care. The above is why the CMOS z80 with integrated clock controller was really important. Now packet modems I remember worked well even with the 2.5mhz part. Speed of the processor was rarely an issue as the RF side of the modem was generally slow as in 9600 baud max (VHF/uhf) and restricted to 1200 baud on many bands.? I helped build a digipeter (packet store and forward repeater) once and in that case CMOS was desired to allow battery backup with long up times.? A 4mhz cmos z80 (and everything else cmos) did the job well. Allison > Regards, > > Holm From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Apr 16 08:03:17 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:03:17 +0000 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 04/15/2018 03:30 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/15/18 11:59 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>>>> wish this ?was ?closer! ?ed# >>>>> >>>> Me too.? I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. >>> Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. >>> I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check >>> out their condition. >> Wrong side of the country.? Scranton, PA.? And if they are as >> sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost >> of shipping one would be very prohibitive. > > Are you willing to drive to Wellsboro, PA for one or two? I am heading > down to PDX because I am a motorsports official. The first weekend of > June, the series will be in Wellsboro. If you are interested, I? can > see if one of the teams is willing to haul one or two Alphas that way. > How big are the Alphas?? I was thinking they were the deskside towers about the size of a PC.? But if they are the ones that are the size of a small refrigerator I may not be able to handle them. bill From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Apr 16 08:11:37 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 06:11:37 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Pictures were sent, they are being picked up Friday. On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 6:03 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 04/15/2018 03:30 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 4/15/18 11:59 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >>>> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > >>>>> wish this was closer! ed# > >>>>> > >>>> Me too. I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. > >>> Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. > >>> I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check > >>> out their condition. > >> Wrong side of the country. Scranton, PA. And if they are as > >> sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost > >> of shipping one would be very prohibitive. > > > > Are you willing to drive to Wellsboro, PA for one or two? I am heading > > down to PDX because I am a motorsports official. The first weekend of > > June, the series will be in Wellsboro. If you are interested, I can > > see if one of the teams is willing to haul one or two Alphas that way. > > > > How big are the Alphas? I was thinking they were the deskside towers > about the size of a PC. But if they are the ones that are the size of a > small refrigerator I may not be able to handle them. > > bill > > From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Apr 16 08:14:01 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 06:14:01 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: https://photos.app.goo.gl/4u6k7EaXwPjTZaDS2 On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 6:11 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Pictures were sent, they are being picked up Friday. > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 6:03 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On 04/15/2018 03:30 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> > >> > >> > On 4/15/18 11:59 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> >> On 04/15/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> >>> >> >>> On 4/15/18 11:30 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >>>> On 04/15/2018 01:44 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> >>>>> wish this was closer! ed# >> >>>>> >> >>>> Me too. I could use an Alpha or two for running VMS. >> >>> Where are you? I am picking up the Alphas so they don't get scrapped. >> >>> I will be looking for homes for them once I get them here and check >> >>> out their condition. >> >> Wrong side of the country. Scranton, PA. And if they are as >> >> sturdy as the Alphas I have worked with in the past the cost >> >> of shipping one would be very prohibitive. >> > >> > Are you willing to drive to Wellsboro, PA for one or two? I am heading >> > down to PDX because I am a motorsports official. The first weekend of >> > June, the series will be in Wellsboro. If you are interested, I can >> > see if one of the teams is willing to haul one or two Alphas that way. >> > >> >> How big are the Alphas? I was thinking they were the deskside towers >> about the size of a PC. But if they are the ones that are the size of a >> small refrigerator I may not be able to handle them. >> >> bill >> >> > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Apr 16 08:43:16 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:43:16 +0000 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 04/16/2018 09:14 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: https://photos.app.goo.gl/4u6k7EaXwPjTZaDS2 Thanks Pete. They are the ones I was thinking of. I can definitely handle them. If Alan's friend (or Alan himself, I wasn't sure about that part of the message) can get them to Wellsboro, PA I can pick them up there. bill From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 09:27:13 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 10:27:13 -0400 Subject: LCM 8/e System Photo makes ZDNet Message-ID: <027801d3d58f$03b9e370$0b2daa50$@gmail.com> https://www.zdnet.com/article/from-paper-tape-to-the-altair-8800-the-story-o f-my-first-computers/ Noel will appreciate the blinky-lights controller panel top-dead-center :->. paul From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Apr 16 09:54:13 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:54:13 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: There are a few cross conversations going on here and in separate e-mail and maybe some confusion. On Friday, I am going to meet Pete to pick up the Suns and do some prep for later coming back to get the Alphas and the keypunch. I may also pick up Alphas, depending on my judgment on Fri whether I can transport them safely. There will be a second trip to pick up the keypunch and Alphas not picked up in the first trip. It is going to take at least two people to move and load the keypunch. I plan on using the first trip to evaluate whether two will be enough. Also, Pete says that stuff needs to be moved to access the Alphas and the keypunch. I intend to do some of that on the first trip. One complication is that the guy helping with the second trip is also intended in the Alphas. As far as getting one or more Alpha to Wellsboro ... it would be a race car team transporting the machine. I would make arrangements at the race in Portland this coming weekend, drop the equipment off with them at the next race in WA state and the equipment would be at the race after that in Wellsboro. But, at this time, I have not yet identified a team that would do it. They would want specifics on the Alphas that I don?t yet have. Someone asked about the Suns. I am going to bring them home, determine what state they are in and, if necessary, do clean up and sysadmin?ing on them. IIRC from the photo, there were a couple SS20s, a couple SS5s, a SS1+, what Pete described as a prototype SS1 and a system missing a side panel (so I can?t identify it, but it appears to be a SS5/20 vintage system). I am interested in a SS5 and the prototype for myself and will look for new homes for the rest. alan > On Apr 16, 2018, at 6:43 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 04/16/2018 09:14 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > https://photos.app.goo.gl/4u6k7EaXwPjTZaDS2 > > > Thanks Pete. They are the ones I was thinking of. I can definitely handle > them. If Alan's friend (or Alan himself, I wasn't sure about that part of the > message) can get them to Wellsboro, PA I can pick them up there. > > bill > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Apr 16 10:05:10 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 15:05:10 +0000 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 04/16/2018 10:54 AM, Alan Perry wrote: > There are a few cross conversations going on here and in separate e-mail and maybe some confusion. > > On Friday, I am going to meet Pete to pick up the Suns and do some prep for later coming back to get the Alphas and the keypunch. I may also pick up Alphas, depending on my judgment on Fri whether I can transport them safely. > > There will be a second trip to pick up the keypunch and Alphas not picked up in the first trip. It is going to take at least two people to move and load the keypunch. I plan on using the first trip to evaluate whether two will be enough. Also, Pete says that stuff needs to be moved to access the Alphas and the keypunch. I intend to do some of that on the first trip. Might be interesting to know what stuff has to be moved.? :-) > > One complication is that the guy helping with the second trip is also intended in the Alphas. No big deal.? If you have a taker for the Alphas out there at least they don't end up in the skip. > > As far as getting one or more Alpha to Wellsboro ... it would be a race car team transporting the machine. I would make arrangements at the race in Portland this coming weekend, drop the equipment off with them at the next race in WA state and the equipment would be at the race after that in Wellsboro. But, at this time, I have not yet identified a team that would do it. They would want specifics on the Alphas that I don?t yet have. I can't wait to hear where the racetrack is ion Wellsboro cause I sure can't see one on Google Maps.? Ours (Hamlin Speedway) is rather obvious in satellite view.? :-) bill From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Apr 16 10:39:31 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 08:39:31 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 16, 2018, at 8:05 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On 04/16/2018 10:54 AM, Alan Perry wrote: >> There are a few cross conversations going on here and in separate e-mail and maybe some confusion. >> >> On Friday, I am going to meet Pete to pick up the Suns and do some prep for later coming back to get the Alphas and the keypunch. I may also pick up Alphas, depending on my judgment on Fri whether I can transport them safely. >> >> There will be a second trip to pick up the keypunch and Alphas not picked up in the first trip. It is going to take at least two people to move and load the keypunch. I plan on using the first trip to evaluate whether two will be enough. Also, Pete says that stuff needs to be moved to access the Alphas and the keypunch. I intend to do some of that on the first trip. > > Might be interesting to know what stuff has to be moved. :-) Yeah, I was wondering about whether any of the stuff that needs to be moved is of interest. >> >> One complication is that the guy helping with the second trip is also intended in the Alphas. I intended to write ?interested? here. Thanks, autocorrect! > > No big deal. If you have a taker for the Alphas out there at least they > don't end up > in the skip. We can discuss this offline. > >> >> As far as getting one or more Alpha to Wellsboro ... it would be a race car team transporting the machine. I would make arrangements at the race in Portland this coming weekend, drop the equipment off with them at the next race in WA state and the equipment would be at the race after that in Wellsboro. But, at this time, I have not yet identified a team that would do it. They would want specifics on the Alphas that I don?t yet have. > > I can't wait to hear where the racetrack is ion Wellsboro cause I sure > can't see one > on Google Maps. Ours (Hamlin Speedway) is rather obvious in satellite > view. :-) We don?t race on tracks. It is called ?stage rally?, the US version of the World Rally Championship. They race against the clock on closed, gravel roads. The cars are street-legal and, to get from one timed section to the next, they drive on open, public roads, obeying the rules of the road. On the timed sections, someone sits in the passenger seat calling out a detailed description of the next turns coming up to the driver. When I competed, I was one of those guys reading directions. The Wellsboro rally is called STPR (Susquehannock Trail Performance Rally). alan > > bill > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 10:48:41 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 08:48:41 -0700 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <20180415014014.63E1D4E88F@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20180415014014.63E1D4E88F@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <381df204-a229-8bfa-8d6b-4dea34c8723d@sydex.com> I'm reminded of how fast things have gotten when I use some of my old media conversion code developed on an 8088 PC, that's been recompiled to run under 64-bit Linux on a reasonably fast CPU (3GHz quad-core AMD). I'd sit back for a couple of minutes waiting for the code to churn through the data and create files and write them to disk. Now, with essentially the same code, it's done before I can lift my finger off the RETURN key--150 or 200 files' worth of data. It strikes me as odd how little time we actually spend today computing (other than bitcoin mining) in comparison to drawing pictures on a screen. Back in the day, I often fantasized at what I would do if I had a processor 10 times faster than the 70s supercomputer I was using. Little did I suspect that I'd be using the processing power 40-some years later to watch TV. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 11:30:07 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 16:30:07 +0000 Subject: motorola's chip page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 06:35 David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone know where Motorola's current production chips are described? > http://www.motorola.com/General/prodport.html only partially works and > search is entirely broken because http://search.motorola.com no longer > exists. > Motorola isn't in the semiconductor business, and hasn't been for many years! The semiconductor business was spun off as Freescale Semiconductor, which spit out the discrete and logic business as On Semiconductor. Since then, NXP (formerly Philips) bought Freescale, and On merged with Fairchild (spun off from National). From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 12:09:40 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 10:09:40 -0700 Subject: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip In-Reply-To: <023401d3d551$cb9f0520$62dd0f60$@gmail.com> References: <023401d3d551$cb9f0520$62dd0f60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 12:08 AM, CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote: > After battling for days with a Dolch 65 that developed the two-tone > beep-of-death on boot, I finally found that it's just my BIOS ROM that has > gone bad. The BIOS happens to be an Award BIOS, says "Award 1998 PCI/PNP > 686" on the chip. It's a square chip with pins on the side. > > Photo here: > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OtZ1AU0Hac8RlzTgbgCY4z_qcMlGWXu1 > > So I thought I might just ask. Anyone has a dead Dolch 65 motherboard from > which I could steal a BIOS chip. The board is actually an Advantech CI6BM-B1 > industrial single board computer. > > Or alternately, can someone identify what kind of ROM or EEPROM that likely > is, and provide advice on how to read the data from a good chip (I have > another good chip in another Dolch, that's how I found out what my problem > was), and program a similar chip. > > Marc Surely you must have a PLCC capable device programmer hidden away somewhere in your not so secret basement lab. And if you don't have one, why haven't you built one up from an HP-85 and some GPIO adapters? I also have a PAC 65. I'll have to open it up and take a look. Wish there weren't so many screws involved. Whatever that 32-pin PLCC part is I should be able to read its contents with my BP Microsystems BP-1610 device programmer. I could program a new one if I had some of the same part on hand. -Glen From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 16 12:19:59 2018 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 19:19:59 +0200 Subject: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip In-Reply-To: References: <023401d3d551$cb9f0520$62dd0f60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <032c01d3d5a7$26fb6260$74f22720$@xs4all.nl> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk Namens Glen Slick via cctalk Verzonden: maandag 16 april 2018 19:10 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 12:08 AM, CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote: > After battling for days with a Dolch 65 that developed the two-tone > beep-of-death on boot, I finally found that it's just my BIOS ROM that > has gone bad. The BIOS happens to be an Award BIOS, says "Award 1998 > PCI/PNP 686" on the chip. It's a square chip with pins on the side. > > Photo here: > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OtZ1AU0Hac8RlzTgbgCY4z_qcMlGWXu1 > > So I thought I might just ask. Anyone has a dead Dolch 65 motherboard > from which I could steal a BIOS chip. The board is actually an > Advantech CI6BM-B1 industrial single board computer. > > Or alternately, can someone identify what kind of ROM or EEPROM that > likely is, and provide advice on how to read the data from a good chip > (I have another good chip in another Dolch, that's how I found out > what my problem was), and program a similar chip. > > Marc Surely you must have a PLCC capable device programmer hidden away somewhere in your not so secret basement lab. And if you don't have one, why haven't you built one up from an HP-85 and some GPIO adapters? I also have a PAC 65. I'll have to open it up and take a look. Wish there weren't so many screws involved. Whatever that 32-pin PLCC part is I should be able to read its contents with my BP Microsystems BP-1610 device programmer. I could program a new one if I had some of the same part on hand. -Glen It's probably something like a 28F010 / 040 flash chip, or something like that. Look at which address lines are connected and you can figure out the size of the thing. Most hobby programmers like Willem etc. will program those, reading shouldn't be a problem at all the foot print of these parts are all the same. -Rik From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 12:41:23 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 10:41:23 -0700 Subject: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip In-Reply-To: References: <023401d3d551$cb9f0520$62dd0f60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 10:09 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 12:08 AM, CuriousMarc via cctalk > wrote: >> After battling for days with a Dolch 65 that developed the two-tone >> beep-of-death on boot, I finally found that it's just my BIOS ROM that has >> gone bad. The BIOS happens to be an Award BIOS, says "Award 1998 PCI/PNP >> 686" on the chip. It's a square chip with pins on the side. >> >> Photo here: >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OtZ1AU0Hac8RlzTgbgCY4z_qcMlGWXu1 >> >> So I thought I might just ask. Anyone has a dead Dolch 65 motherboard from >> which I could steal a BIOS chip. The board is actually an Advantech CI6BM-B1 >> industrial single board computer. >> >> Or alternately, can someone identify what kind of ROM or EEPROM that likely >> is, and provide advice on how to read the data from a good chip (I have >> another good chip in another Dolch, that's how I found out what my problem >> was), and program a similar chip. >> >> Marc > > I also have a PAC 65. I'll have to open it up and take a look. Wish > there weren't so many screws involved. Whatever that 32-pin PLCC part > is I should be able to read its contents with my BP Microsystems > BP-1610 device programmer. I could program a new one if I had some of > the same part on hand. I just checked and my memory was not correct. I have a PAC 63 and a PAC 64, but I'm not sure what the model is of the one I thought was a PAC 65. That one doesn't have a model sticker on it. I didn't open it up to take a look. From the BIOS POST screen it has an i440FX chipset PII 266MHz CPU board with an AMI BIOS with a copyright of 1996. So that's not the same as your copyright 1998 Award BIOS PAC 65. The other ones I have are newer P3 FlexPAC boxes. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 14:51:45 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 12:51:45 -0700 Subject: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip In-Reply-To: References: <023401d3d551$cb9f0520$62dd0f60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ECFF08E-E037-4958-89D5-CEE48361E263@gmail.com> Glen, I think I wasn't thinking straight late last night when I finally found the chip was bad... I usually don't work on stuff that "new", so I was unfamiliar with the PLCC 32 format and have nothing to program it. I bet the reference of what chip it is hides just under the label! Assuming this is a run-off-the-mill EPROM chip, one should indeed be able to copy it with a semi-recent EPROM programmer (i.e., not mine...). Now, if it's one of these fancy Intel "Firmware Hubs" with copy protection, I am probably hosed. But I doubt it since there is an appropriately archaic CMOS settings chip next to it, so hopefully it is just a traditional ROM in a fancy package. BTW to take a look at that bios, you have to take the plastic back off, then the metal cage back off, then the strip with the serial connectors off, then the power supply off. It's 15 minutes work and 16 screws... In Dolch we trust. Marc > On Apr 16, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > Surely you must have a PLCC capable device programmer hidden away > somewhere in your not so secret basement lab. And if you don't have > one, why haven't you built one up from an HP-85 and some GPIO > adapters? > > I also have a PAC 65. I'll have to open it up and take a look. Wish > there weren't so many screws involved. Whatever that 32-pin PLCC part > is I should be able to read its contents with my BP Microsystems > BP-1610 device programmer. I could program a new one if I had some of > the same part on hand. > > -Glen From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Apr 16 14:01:51 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 19:01:51 +0000 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? Message-ID: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> Hi friends. I have a 1990's vintage commercial radio system that uses an 80C85A CPU. I am looking to hopefully modify the firmware to make some small changes in its behavior. The firmware is contained in two EPROMS. Can anyone recommend a decent disassembler to use with this? Preferably something that ran in windows 10 or windows 7? A dos box would be fine too. Also, I looked through the dumped contents of the EPROM. In the past I have seen EPROM ascii dumps where most is unintelligible to the naked eye but typically text messages give to the users during interaction with the program are human readable. In this case, the ASCII dump shows only other HEX data. I believe I read that there is a HEX format and that I might need to convert from HEX to BIN before disassembling. Of course, an ideal tool would do both if anyone knows such a thing. I am not familiar with 8085 stuff but any insight would be appreciated. Lastly, I wonder if there might be some kind of checksum check to prevent tampering. Is there a common way this is handled in 8085 world? Or is it entirely programmer dependent? Thanks for your time Eugene W2HX? From web at loomcom.com Mon Apr 16 15:38:22 2018 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:38:22 -0700 Subject: Looking for 3B2 "NI" source code Message-ID: <1523911102.76609.1340147728.42483C67@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hi folks, I know this is a wild long shot, but just in case... Does anybody have a copy of the source code for the NI Ethernet driver for the AT&T 3B2? AT&T distributed it, but I have never seen a copy in the wild. The package name was "nisrc", if that helps. If I can't find it, I'll have to reverse engineer the binary. Won't that be fun! -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 15:48:11 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 16:48:11 -0400 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> References: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> Message-ID: IDA Pro will do 8080/8085 and is very nice -- especially if you have no source and are having to reverse-engineer the whole thing yourself. The commercial version is expensive, but there's a free version. I don't remember if the free version includes 8080/8085 mode. The strings may be packed ASCII, to save space. There were a few methods of doing this. If there's a checksum it's not inherent to the CPU. There would need to be custom hardware on the board to enforce a hardware ROM checksum; otherwise, it's left to software and you can easily update that :) Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 3:01 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hi friends. I have a 1990's vintage commercial radio system that uses an > 80C85A CPU. I am looking to hopefully modify the firmware to make some > small changes in its behavior. The firmware is contained in two EPROMS. > > > Can anyone recommend a decent disassembler to use with this? Preferably > something that ran in windows 10 or windows 7? A dos box would be fine too. > > > Also, I looked through the dumped contents of the EPROM. In the past I > have seen EPROM ascii dumps where most is unintelligible to the naked eye > but typically text messages give to the users during interaction with the > program are human readable. In this case, the ASCII dump shows only other > HEX data. I believe I read that there is a HEX format and that I might > need to convert from HEX to BIN before disassembling. Of course, an ideal > tool would do both if anyone knows such a thing. > > > I am not familiar with 8085 stuff but any insight would be appreciated. > > > Lastly, I wonder if there might be some kind of checksum check to prevent > tampering. Is there a common way this is handled in 8085 world? Or is it > entirely programmer dependent? > > > Thanks for your time > > Eugene W2HX? > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 19:35:24 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 17:35:24 -0700 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> References: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> Message-ID: You could post the EPROM files you have online somewhere for other people to take a quick look. Maybe create a thread on the vcfed forum and add them as an attachment to a message there. If you zip them up they should be small enough for an attachment. I have only tried using IDA Pro a couple of times. I haven't learned how to use it well enough to be what I have used for similar 8-bit CPU disassembly tasks in the past. I have just written my own basic functionality 8085 / Z80 / 8051 disassemblers when I have had the need. Not too hard to make it smart enough to be able to specify known entry points (for example reset and interrupt vectors) and have it do reachable code traversal from there. Some things require manual intervention and iterative refinement, for example any indirect jumps through call tables, or calculated jumps. Using a professional tool might be quicker, but you might learn a lot more along the way doing things yourself. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 16 19:50:41 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 20:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LCM 8/e System Photo makes ZDNet Message-ID: <20180417005041.6B5D218C0F2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Birkel > the blinky-lights controller panel top-dead-center :->. Yeah, that's a TC08. I actually have one of those inlays, it's the only original inlay I have. It was the model for the large run of blank inlays (black backing with the holes on the back, but nothing on the front) I just had made. At the moment, it's sitting in my indicator panel stand with little bits of tape stuck to it: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/PanelMounting.jpg http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/DasBlinken2F.jpg so it can be an inlay for the RKV12. If anyone needs a TC08 inlay, I'd be happy to trade it for any other inlay (as long as I have one original for engineering purposes). Sigh, need to get back to the inlays and take the next step with them! Dave B and I got derailed trying to find/fix a flaky on the QSIC - on my prototype, it would occasionally get NXM's running the RK random exerciser I wrote. I was trying to figure out what the problem was, and I got tired of the prototype sticking out in my way: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/tmp/JNCQSIC.jpg (with the FPGA daughter-board on top, even with short cables, it has to be on an extender), so I rotated the QBUS chassis 90 degrees so the QSIC was on top, and took the opportunity to re-order the boards. Bad mistake! Now the problem has gone away and I can't re-create it! Noel From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 20:11:43 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 18:11:43 -0700 Subject: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip In-Reply-To: <6ECFF08E-E037-4958-89D5-CEE48361E263@gmail.com> References: <023401d3d551$cb9f0520$62dd0f60$@gmail.com> <6ECFF08E-E037-4958-89D5-CEE48361E263@gmail.com> Message-ID: <032f01d3d5e9$0ce33730$26a9a590$@gmail.com> And lifting the sticker reveals the BIOS chip is just a W29C020P-12, a regular 256k x 8 Flash memory, 5V chip. Duh. Mystery solved. Of course way newer and with many more address lines than my DataIO 29B can read and program. Time has come to buy a small, modern, cheap, infinitely capable Chinesium EEPROM programmer. Read: the kind of practical, affordable, sensical and useful equipment I usually steer away from. Ebay here I come. Or make a programmer with an Arduino, since it's 5V. What about the TL866 that Dave at EEVBlog likes? Does it have a PLCC adapter? Anyone has another recommendation? Marc -----Original Message----- From: Curious Marc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 12:52 PM To: Glen Slick; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip Glen, I think I wasn't thinking straight late last night when I finally found the chip was bad... I usually don't work on stuff that "new", so I was unfamiliar with the PLCC 32 format and have nothing to program it. I bet the reference of what chip it is hides just under the label! Assuming this is a run-off-the-mill EPROM chip, one should indeed be able to copy it with a semi-recent EPROM programmer (i.e., not mine...). Now, if it's one of these fancy Intel "Firmware Hubs" with copy protection, I am probably hosed. But I doubt it since there is an appropriately archaic CMOS settings chip next to it, so hopefully it is just a traditional ROM in a fancy package. BTW to take a look at that bios, you have to take the plastic back off, then the metal cage back off, then the strip with the serial connectors off, then the power supply off. It's 15 minutes work and 16 screws... In Dolch we trust. Marc > On Apr 16, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > Surely you must have a PLCC capable device programmer hidden away > somewhere in your not so secret basement lab. And if you don't have > one, why haven't you built one up from an HP-85 and some GPIO > adapters? > > I also have a PAC 65. I'll have to open it up and take a look. Wish > there weren't so many screws involved. Whatever that 32-pin PLCC part > is I should be able to read its contents with my BP Microsystems > BP-1610 device programmer. I could program a new one if I had some of > the same part on hand. > > -Glen From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 20:29:09 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 18:29:09 -0700 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <4f2cf31d-4ddf-168f-b2f0-e9e95031af75@sydex.com> On 04/16/2018 05:35 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > I have only tried using IDA Pro a couple of times. I haven't learned > how to use it well enough to be what I have used for similar 8-bit CPU > disassembly tasks in the past. I have just written my own basic > functionality 8085 / Z80 / 8051 disassemblers when I have had the > need. Not too hard to make it smart enough to be able to specify known > entry points (for example reset and interrupt vectors) and have it do > reachable code traversal from there. Some things require manual > intervention and iterative refinement, for example any indirect jumps > through call tables, or calculated jumps. Using a professional tool > might be quicker, but you might learn a lot more along the way doing > things yourself. I've used IDA Pro quite a bit and like it a lot. One of things that it does is analyze program flow. You can assign your own labels and symbol names; it can detect subroutine boundaries and you can change the assembly syntax of constants. Disassembly is never lots of fun, but IDA makes it easier. I think that it's still possible to get the old "free" version on the web. The "pay to play" version covers a lot of processors (8- 16- 32- and 64-bit). IDA does require a bit of learning the lay of the land, but once you et started, things get easier faster. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 20:31:00 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 18:31:00 -0700 Subject: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip In-Reply-To: <032f01d3d5e9$0ce33730$26a9a590$@gmail.com> References: <023401d3d551$cb9f0520$62dd0f60$@gmail.com> <6ECFF08E-E037-4958-89D5-CEE48361E263@gmail.com> <032f01d3d5e9$0ce33730$26a9a590$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0fe35e10-779f-d7a6-13e4-ed4cb4bc34f7@sydex.com> On 04/16/2018 06:11 PM, CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote: > And lifting the sticker reveals the BIOS chip is just a W29C020P-12, a > regular 256k x 8 Flash memory, 5V chip. Duh. Mystery solved. Of course way > newer and with many more address lines than my DataIO 29B can read and > program. Time has come to buy a small, modern, cheap, infinitely capable > Chinesium EEPROM programmer. Read: the kind of practical, affordable, > sensical and useful equipment I usually steer away from. Ebay here I come. > Or make a programmer with an Arduino, since it's 5V. Hmmm, you don't happen to be a subscriber to AvE's Youtube channel, perhaps? --Chuck From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Apr 16 20:35:10 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 01:35:10 +0000 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> Message-ID: Hi Glen, Allison, Jonathan, Chuck, et. al. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I investigated the IDA Pro and unfortunately, the freeware version does not support 8085 and their lowest tier version costs $700 (ouch), but I will look into others like DASMx. In case anyone is interested in the project, this is a transmitter system. There is one button called PWR when pressed it cycles through different output power levels - 125W, 500W, 1KW and then back to 125W and so on. Problem is, I have a 500W amp, not a 1KW amp. The manufacturer was kind enough to explain that they never got around to updating the firmware in the remote control for the 500W system and therefore it assumes 1KW is available. In my case when 1KW comes around the system goes into "funk mode". All I am looking to do is to remove the 1KW option and have it cycle from 125W, 500W and back to 125W. I am hoping this could be done with a JMP in the right place or some NOOPs or something. Appreciate the responses. Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick via cctalk Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 8:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 8085 Dissasembly? You could post the EPROM files you have online somewhere for other people to take a quick look. Maybe create a thread on the vcfed forum and add them as an attachment to a message there. If you zip them up they should be small enough for an attachment. I have only tried using IDA Pro a couple of times. I haven't learned how to use it well enough to be what I have used for similar 8-bit CPU disassembly tasks in the past. I have just written my own basic functionality 8085 / Z80 / 8051 disassemblers when I have had the need. Not too hard to make it smart enough to be able to specify known entry points (for example reset and interrupt vectors) and have it do reachable code traversal from there. Some things require manual intervention and iterative refinement, for example any indirect jumps through call tables, or calculated jumps. Using a professional tool might be quicker, but you might learn a lot more along the way doing things yourself. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 22:40:23 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 20:40:23 -0700 Subject: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip In-Reply-To: <0fe35e10-779f-d7a6-13e4-ed4cb4bc34f7@sydex.com> References: <023401d3d551$cb9f0520$62dd0f60$@gmail.com> <6ECFF08E-E037-4958-89D5-CEE48361E263@gmail.com> <032f01d3d5e9$0ce33730$26a9a590$@gmail.com> <0fe35e10-779f-d7a6-13e4-ed4cb4bc34f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5E5CC1A2-2011-4F01-97B9-70078CDE5D1B@gmail.com> > On Apr 16, 2018, at 6:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> On 04/16/2018 06:11 PM, CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote: >> And lifting the sticker reveals the BIOS chip is just a W29C020P-12, a >> regular 256k x 8 Flash memory, 5V chip. Duh. Mystery solved. Of course way >> newer and with many more address lines than my DataIO 29B can read and >> program. Time has come to buy a small, modern, cheap, infinitely capable >> Chinesium EEPROM programmer. Read: the kind of practical, affordable, >> sensical and useful equipment I usually steer away from. Ebay here I come. >> Or make a programmer with an Arduino, since it's 5V. > > Hmmm, you don't happen to be a subscriber to AvE's Youtube channel, perhaps? > > --Chuck > Why... Would that be good or would that be bad? Keep your disk in a vice! :-) Marc From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 23:05:26 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 22:05:26 -0600 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <4f2cf31d-4ddf-168f-b2f0-e9e95031af75@sydex.com> References: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> <4f2cf31d-4ddf-168f-b2f0-e9e95031af75@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Disassembly is never lots of fun, > Some of us might disagree. But then, some of us might be masochists. From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 18:07:20 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 19:07:20 -0400 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> References: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On 04/16/2018 03:01 PM, W2HX via cctech wrote: > Hi friends. I have a 1990's vintage commercial radio system that uses an 80C85A CPU. I am looking to hopefully modify the firmware to make some small changes in its behavior. The firmware is contained in two EPROMS. > > > Can anyone recommend a decent disassembler to use with this? Preferably something that ran in windows 10 or windows 7? A dos box would be fine too. I've used DASMx freeware.? My primary for that work is resource/Zsource but that runs on my CP/M box where my EPROM reader/writer is. Google 8085 disassembler.? Try several to see what works for you.? Generally those that interact with the user are best as you can sorta guide them around text sections and allow you to assign descriptive labels to sections (subroutines). You may even need a 8085 simulator to test sections of code. > Also, I looked through the dumped contents of the EPROM. In the past I have seen EPROM ascii dumps where most is unintelligible to the naked eye but typically text messages give to the users during interaction with the program are human readable. In this case, the ASCII dump shows only other HEX data. I believe I read that there is a HEX format and that I might need to convert from HEX to BIN before disassembling. Of course, an ideal tool would do both if anyone knows such a thing. > You may depending on what the tool expects.? Usually hex dumps obscure the text.? Its not common for 8085 programmers to compress text.?? That assumes the text is not a bitmap for a LCD or LED then all bets are off as to what you may see. > I am not familiar with 8085 stuff but any insight would be appreciated. > I am. ? You will need to understand the 8085, its environment (the stuff it controls) and what the memory layout(both rom and ram)? and IO layout.? Learn the 8085 instruction set. FYI the 8080/8085 user manual is on line so find it and get it will be a big help. As they say, you will be working very close to the raw metal. One worry is that the code could have been written in C or PL/M (or PLI) and that may obscure the code further. > Lastly, I wonder if there might be some kind of checksum check to prevent tampering. Is there a common way this is handled in 8085 world? Or is it entirely programmer dependent? The 8085 does not have hardware checksum.? Its a programmer thing as in who wrote the code and if there were requirements by management or client to have checks (may include other self tests and manufacturing diagnostics as well).? However, its possible to do that in the code as part of the startup self check (or BITE if mil).? That only means you have to either negate that code (after finding it) or you can find where the checksum is and write a new one.?? In cases where I've seen it it was early in the startup and was there to verify the Eproms were not broken than a worry about tampering. Doing this is not trivial and you are in full forensic sleuth mode. Hope that helps. Allison/KB1GMX From wilson at dbit.com Mon Apr 16 20:49:31 2018 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 21:49:31 -0400 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> References: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <20180417014931.GA26795@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 07:01:51PM +0000, W2HX via cctech wrote: >Hi friends. I have a 1990's vintage commercial radio system that uses an >80C85A CPU. I am looking to hopefully modify the firmware to make some >small changes in its behavior. The firmware is contained in two EPROMS. > >Can anyone recommend a decent disassembler to use with this? Preferably >something that ran in windows 10 or windows 7? A dos box would be fine >too. I wrote one for DOS eons ago that does simple execution tracing and supports the 8085: http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/dasm/ It's not perfect but the price is right and it comes with source. John Wilson (KC1P) D Bit From mark at matlockfamily.com Mon Apr 16 21:54:04 2018 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 21:54:04 -0500 Subject: Scanned paperback book "RSX A User's Guide" Message-ID: <5FF3FC8F-4A9D-44AE-B676-0A6F1D748A35@MatlockFamily.com> I recently decided to make scan a paperback book that I happen to have two copies of. It is "RSX A Guide for Users by John Pieper? published in 1987 by DEC. I have not seen a copy of it in any of the online sources like bit savers. For anyone just starting out with RSX it is a nice general read that also covers some system topics like backups, etc. similar to the paper back VAX/VMS user and system manager books. I?d like to make it available online but wasn?t sure how to submit it. It is about 38 MB in size so bigger than an email (at my email). Since I didn?t have an industrial book shear to remove the binding, I used a belt sander to remove enough go the binding to pull the pages free easily and then used a paper cutter to trim the pages a bit to remove any last traces of glue that would have jammed the scanner. The book is about 360 pages. Thanks, Mark Matlock From leec2124 at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 23:04:07 2018 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 21:04:07 -0700 Subject: Scanned paperback book "RSX A User's Guide" In-Reply-To: <5FF3FC8F-4A9D-44AE-B676-0A6F1D748A35@MatlockFamily.com> References: <5FF3FC8F-4A9D-44AE-B676-0A6F1D748A35@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: "Since I didn?t have an industrial book shear to remove the binding," Mark - most Kinko's have one of these and can easily cut off the binding for a small fee. Lee Courtney On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:54 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I recently decided to make scan a paperback book that I happen to have > two copies of. It is "RSX A Guide for Users by John Pieper? published in > 1987 by DEC. I have not seen a copy of it in any of the online sources like > bit savers. For anyone just starting out with RSX it is a nice general read > that also covers some system topics like backups, etc. similar to the paper > back VAX/VMS user and system manager books. > > I?d like to make it available online but wasn?t sure how to submit it. > It is about 38 MB in size so bigger than an email (at my email). > > Since I didn?t have an industrial book shear to remove the binding, I > used a belt sander to remove enough go the binding to pull the pages free > easily and then used a paper cutter to trim the pages a bit to remove any > last traces of glue that would have jammed the scanner. The book is about > 360 pages. > > Thanks, > Mark Matlock -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 17 06:46:48 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 06:46:48 -0500 Subject: Scanned paperback book "RSX A User's Guide" In-Reply-To: <5FF3FC8F-4A9D-44AE-B676-0A6F1D748A35@MatlockFamily.com> References: <5FF3FC8F-4A9D-44AE-B676-0A6F1D748A35@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: <003d01d3d641$c4ff99a0$4efecce0$@classiccmp.org> Mark - if you don't find another good spot for it, I'd be happy to host it for free. Perhaps rsx.classiccmp.org or such. Best, J From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 17 07:04:27 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:04:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? Message-ID: <20180417120427.4D84A18C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > But then, some of us might be masochists. I think pretty much by definition if you're into vintage computers, you have to be a masochist... :-) Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 17 08:07:21 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:07:21 +0000 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <20180417120427.4D84A18C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180417120427.4D84A18C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 04/17/2018 08:04 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Eric Smith > > > But then, some of us might be masochists. > > I think pretty much by definition if you're into vintage computers, you have > to be a masochist... :-) > > Many of us think that the advent of the x86 architecture is what led to masochism. bill From bygg at cafax.se Tue Apr 17 15:12:57 2018 From: bygg at cafax.se (Johnny Eriksson) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 15:12:57 WET DST Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:07:21 +0000 Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Many of us think that the advent of the x86 architecture is what led to > masochism. ... or masochism led to the x86 architecture. > bill --Johnny From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Apr 17 08:25:03 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:25:03 -0600 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 7:12 PM, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > > Many of us think that the advent of the x86 architecture is what led to > > masochism. > > ... or masochism led to the x86 architecture. > I think you are confused maybe. Wasn't it sadism? Warner From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 17 09:08:48 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip In-Reply-To: <5E5CC1A2-2011-4F01-97B9-70078CDE5D1B@gmail.com> References: <023401d3d551$cb9f0520$62dd0f60$@gmail.com> <6ECFF08E-E037-4958-89D5-CEE48361E263@gmail.com> <032f01d3d5e9$0ce33730$26a9a590$@gmail.com> <0fe35e10-779f-d7a6-13e4-ed4cb4bc34f7@sydex.com> <5E5CC1A2-2011-4F01-97B9-70078CDE5D1B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2018, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Apr 16, 2018, at 6:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On 04/16/2018 06:11 PM, CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote: >>> And lifting the sticker reveals the BIOS chip is just a W29C020P-12, a >>> regular 256k x 8 Flash memory, 5V chip. Duh. Mystery solved. Of course way >>> newer and with many more address lines than my DataIO 29B can read and >>> program. Time has come to buy a small, modern, cheap, infinitely capable >>> Chinesium EEPROM programmer. Read: the kind of practical, affordable, >>> sensical and useful equipment I usually steer away from. Ebay here I come. >>> Or make a programmer with an Arduino, since it's 5V. >> >> Hmmm, you don't happen to be a subscriber to AvE's Youtube channel, perhaps? >> >> --Chuck >> > Why... Would that be good or would that be bad? > Keep your disk in a vice! > :-) > Marc Just make sure that the programmer you get chooches properly. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 17 09:31:10 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:31:10 +0000 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87E87A44-51E7-4F84-B7BF-B989231F0DC2@swri.edu> On Apr 17, 2018, at 8:25 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 7:12 PM, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>> Many of us think that the advent of the x86 architecture is what led to >>> masochism. >> >> ... or masochism led to the x86 architecture. >> > > I think you are confused maybe. Wasn't it sadism? > > Warner ?? weren?t we talking about disasm? Maybe you got spell-checked, Warner? :-) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 17 09:45:57 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:45:57 +0000 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <20180417120427.4D84A18C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, Message-ID: Doing disassembly is about a process of refining. Some expect the disassembler to figure out where the gobs of data bytes are. Most such disassembler do a poor job on one or another program. The ones that actually work best are those that allow you ( a human ) to look at the result and allow you to see list of suspected pointers. Also, those that high light sections of code that don't make much sense. These features allow one to feedback to the assembler meaning full labels for what the code does. Although, one might think this type of disassembler is more complicated, it is often the simpler ones that are the easiest to use. I recommend that you write your own disassembler. The 8085 has a simple code. Make it so you can post process notes made into the early listings and have them copied to the new listing. It need to be able to start and stop disassembling and putting in fields of data bytes. It is always useful to be able to define these data bytes in some regular format, such as ASCII strings, address tables or possible offsets. The ability to carry forward such information makes the process of dissecting a program so much easier. If it is a disassembler that you wrote, you can add features that may be specific to the code you are disassembling. An example of this is one I recently wrote to understand Forth code. I'm looking at a Forth written for the 6502 but turnkeyed for a specific purpose that is no longer useful. It had its complete dictionary intact that I'm making a new boot section to allow me to access the interpreter and compiler. One can optimize C code as well. It tends to have regular groups of instructions as well. You as a human with a brain can do better at understanding things than any program. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 6:07:21 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: 8085 Dissasembly? On 04/17/2018 08:04 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Eric Smith > > > But then, some of us might be masochists. > > I think pretty much by definition if you're into vintage computers, you have > to be a masochist... :-) > > Many of us think that the advent of the x86 architecture is what led to masochism. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 17 09:59:08 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:59:08 +0000 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/17/2018 09:25 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 7:12 PM, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>> Many of us think that the advent of the x86 architecture is what led to >>> masochism. >> ... or masochism led to the x86 architecture. >> > I think you are confused maybe. Wasn't it sadism? > > Sadism on Intel's part but masochism on the part of those who willingly accepted it. Not sure where that leaves the rest of us. bill From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 17 10:07:17 2018 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 15:07:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? References: <598073144.1267622.1523977637574.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <598073144.1267622.1523977637574@mail.yahoo.com> On Tue, 4/17/18, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Disassembly is never lots of fun, > > Some of us might disagree. > But then, some of us might be masochists. I was just thinking the same thing. This whole discussion has taken me back to fond memories of writing a 68000 disassembler in AWK (long story). BLS From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 10:07:26 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 11:07:26 -0400 Subject: LCM 8/e System Photo makes ZDNet In-Reply-To: <20180417005041.6B5D218C0F2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180417005041.6B5D218C0F2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Beauty in engineering. DEC and Data General man, simply artwork. -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Paul Birkel > > > the blinky-lights controller panel top-dead-center :->. > > Yeah, that's a TC08. > > I actually have one of those inlays, it's the only original inlay I have. > It > was the model for the large run of blank inlays (black backing with the > holes > on the back, but nothing on the front) I just had made. At the moment, it's > sitting in my indicator panel stand with little bits of tape stuck to it: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/PanelMounting.jpg > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/DasBlinken2F.jpg > > so it can be an inlay for the RKV12. If anyone needs a TC08 inlay, I'd be > happy to trade it for any other inlay (as long as I have one original for > engineering purposes). > > > Sigh, need to get back to the inlays and take the next step with them! > > Dave B and I got derailed trying to find/fix a flaky on the QSIC - on my > prototype, it would occasionally get NXM's running the RK random exerciser > I > wrote. I was trying to figure out what the problem was, and I got tired of > the prototype sticking out in my way: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/tmp/JNCQSIC.jpg > > (with the FPGA daughter-board on top, even with short cables, it has to be > on > an extender), so I rotated the QBUS chassis 90 degrees so the QSIC was on > top, and took the opportunity to re-order the boards. Bad mistake! Now the > problem has gone away and I can't re-create it! > > Noel > From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 10:12:51 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 11:12:51 -0400 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> On 04/17/2018 10:59 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/17/2018 09:25 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 7:12 PM, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>>> Many of us think that the advent of the x86 architecture is what led to >>>> masochism. >>> ... or masochism led to the x86 architecture. >>> >> I think you are confused maybe. Wasn't it sadism? >> >> > Sadism on Intel's part but masochism on the part of those who willingly > accepted it. > Not sure where that leaves the rest of us. Linux on ARM or NETBSD on VAX... in recovery, or maybe PDP-8 or PDP 11?? The old RCA CDP1802 keeps dragging me back. I seriously stopped messing with intel with 8080/8085 jumping to Z80 ?and 8048/8051 for the single chips and then going off to PIC and Atmega. Looked at 8086 and decided it was a 8080 with a bag on the side. It was and still is irrational. Disassembly for 8085 is dirt simple as the opcodes are easily classified and decoded.??? Its easy enough to do in a word processor, find and replace. Allison > bill > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 17 10:12:46 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 15:12:46 +0000 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <598073144.1267622.1523977637574@mail.yahoo.com> References: <598073144.1267622.1523977637574.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <598073144.1267622.1523977637574@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 04/17/2018 11:07 AM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 4/17/18, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> Disassembly is never lots of fun, >> Some of us might disagree. >> But then, some of us might be masochists. > I was just thinking the same thing. This whole discussion > has taken me back to fond memories of writing a 68000 > disassembler in AWK (long story). > > While I never had to write a disassembler I have written quite a bit of assembler code and have done a number of disassemblies. (Still do once in a while but most of what I do today is for fun.)? My first was PDP-11 followed by Z-80\8080, M68K and M6809.? I have even done some VAX.? I have worked with x86, not from scratch but maintenance. Of all of them the last was the worst and I would never do it for fun.? Oh, I forgot one. Sparc. bill From CyndeM at livingcomputers.org Tue Apr 17 09:34:01 2018 From: CyndeM at livingcomputers.org (Cynde Moya) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:34:01 +0000 Subject: LCM 8/e System Photo makes ZDNet In-Reply-To: <027801d3d58f$03b9e370$0b2daa50$@gmail.com> References: <027801d3d58f$03b9e370$0b2daa50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I recognize that PDP-8/e, it's the one that is working, for visitors to use, at Living Computers: Museum + Labs! http://www.livingcomputers.org -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Paul Birkel via cctalk Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 7:27 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: LCM 8/e System Photo makes ZDNet https://www.zdnet.com/article/from-paper-tape-to-the-altair-8800-the-story-o f-my-first-computers/ Noel will appreciate the blinky-lights controller panel top-dead-center :->. paul From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Apr 17 11:16:10 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 10:16:10 -0600 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <87E87A44-51E7-4F84-B7BF-B989231F0DC2@swri.edu> References: <87E87A44-51E7-4F84-B7BF-B989231F0DC2@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 8:31 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Apr 17, 2018, at 8:25 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk > wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 7:12 PM, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> > >>> Many of us think that the advent of the x86 architecture is what led to > >>> masochism. > >> > >> ... or masochism led to the x86 architecture. > >> > > > > I think you are confused maybe. Wasn't it sadism? > > > > Warner > > ?? weren?t we talking about disasm? Maybe you got spell-checked, Warner? > I think I have a name for the disassembler I coincidentally am working on for the Venix stuff :) Warner From Richard.Sheppard at telus.com Tue Apr 17 13:06:49 2018 From: Richard.Sheppard at telus.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 18:06:49 +0000 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? Message-ID: <107848abe4cc4589a6f0743995ba2714@BTWP000245.corp.ads> > Lastly, I wonder if there might be some kind of checksum check to prevent tampering. Is there a common way this is handled in 8085 world? Or is it entirely programmer dependent? One approach that be doable for you is if you have a good ROM with a known checksum, make your changes then calculate the difference between the new and the original checksum and make another change somewhere innocuous to bring the checksum back to the original value. "Innocuous" may be the trick - perhaps some text string you don't care about, copyright notice etc. or maybe there is an empty area in the EPROM you could stick a byte. Richard Sheppard From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 17 13:21:51 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 11:21:51 -0700 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <87E87A44-51E7-4F84-B7BF-B989231F0DC2@swri.edu> Message-ID: <274d636b-d091-7d53-b16d-b494f2883032@sydex.com> How many started coding for a machine writing machine code? I recall that the IBM 1620 SPS coding forms had two sides--one for coding assembly (SPS); the other labeled "IBM 1620 Absolute Coding System". Basically a form with the first 5 positions reserved for the address, 2 positions for the opcode and 5 positions each for the P and Q addresses. You could enter the code from the form right into the console typewriter or punch it on a keypunch. If you were a real hard-case, you didn't bother with coding forms, you sat down at the typewriter and did everything from memory, mentally keeping track of storage addresses and what referenced them. Do this for a while and disassembly is easy. After all, you'll have all of the instructions and their opcodes committed to memory. I believe that I can still do this for 8080 code, in spite of my deteriorating wetware. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 13:27:20 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 11:27:20 -0700 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <107848abe4cc4589a6f0743995ba2714@BTWP000245.corp.ads> References: <107848abe4cc4589a6f0743995ba2714@BTWP000245.corp.ads> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 11:06 AM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: >> Lastly, I wonder if there might be some kind of checksum check to prevent tampering. Is there a common way this is handled in 8085 world? Or is it entirely programmer dependent? > > One approach that be doable for you is if you have a good ROM with a known checksum, make your changes then calculate the difference between the new and the original checksum and make another change somewhere innocuous to bring the checksum back to the original value. "Innocuous" may be the trick - perhaps some text string you don't care about, copyright notice etc. or maybe there is an empty area in the EPROM you could stick a byte. > > Richard Sheppard A while ago someone asked about dumping contents of the firmware EPROMs from a DECserver 200 where the pair of EPROMs were soldered in place. I used a method of doing that which didn't require desoldering the EPROMs to read them on a device programmer. I wanted to verify the correctness of what I managed to dump and by disassembling and inspecting sections of the firmware I found that the firmware was running a standard CRC32 checksum on itself during its initialization. I was able to run the CRC32 algorithm on what I dumped and verified that it match the checksum that was stored in the EPROM data, and that was sufficient to convince myself that the dump was correct. But the interesting part of all of that is when I looked further at the disassembled firmware it appeared that after it calculated the CRC32 checksum and compared it against the expected result, it completely ignored whether or not the checksum actually matched the expected result. Seemed odd. Later I acquired another DECserver 200 with the same firmware version in socketed EPROMs. Just for curiosity sometime I should try altering the checksum and verify that it really doesn't matter. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 13:46:38 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:46:38 -0600 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 9:12 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > Looked at 8086 and decided it was a 8080 with a bag on the side. > It was and still is irrational. > With the 386 architecture (32-bit), they actually cleaned it up quite a bit. I won't go nearly so far as to say that 386 is elegant, but when running in 32-bit mode with flat addressing it's nowhere near as awful as 16-bit 8086 and 286. AMD did a pretty good job of further extending that to 64-bit. However, it does keep accumulating ever more bags on the side. I hope RISC-V eventually drives a stake through it. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 17 13:52:08 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 18:52:08 +0000 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <274d636b-d091-7d53-b16d-b494f2883032@sydex.com> References: <87E87A44-51E7-4F84-B7BF-B989231F0DC2@swri.edu> <274d636b-d091-7d53-b16d-b494f2883032@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 04/17/2018 02:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > How many started coding for a machine writing machine code? > > I recall that the IBM 1620 SPS coding forms had two sides--one for > coding assembly (SPS); the other labeled "IBM 1620 Absolute Coding > System". Basically a form with the first 5 positions reserved for the > address, 2 positions for the opcode and 5 positions each for the P and Q > addresses. > > You could enter the code from the form right into the console typewriter > or punch it on a keypunch. If you were a real hard-case, you didn't > bother with coding forms, you sat down at the typewriter and did > everything from memory, mentally keeping track of storage addresses and > what referenced them. > > Do this for a while and disassembly is easy. After all, you'll have all > of the instructions and their opcodes committed to memory. > > I believe that I can still do this for 8080 code, in spite of my > deteriorating wetware. > Well, the first programming I learned was Autocoder on the IBM 1401. Our instructor gave us a simple project (80/80 Print). Had us write it in Autocoder and verify that it worked. Then we had to optimize it to reduce it to fit on a single punched card.? That was done by tweaking the machine code output by the Autocoder "compiler".? I still have mine around here somewhere. bill From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Apr 17 14:19:15 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:19:15 -0600 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 12:46 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 9:12 AM, allison via cctalk > > wrote: > > > Looked at 8086 and decided it was a 8080 with a bag on the side. > > It was and still is irrational. > > > > With the 386 architecture (32-bit), they actually cleaned it up quite a > bit. I won't go nearly so far as to say that 386 is elegant, but when > running in 32-bit mode with flat addressing it's nowhere near as awful as > 16-bit 8086 and 286. AMD did a pretty good job of further extending that > to 64-bit. However, it does keep accumulating ever more bags on the side. > Disassembly still isn't 'simple' or 'easy' on x86 as it is on other RISC since the instruction stream can start/stop anywhere. MIPS and Sparc, for example, are both are word based. > I hope RISC-V eventually drives a stake through it. > I have hopes that my 11-year-old son will never have to deal with the horrors that are x86 when he's my age... Maybe it will be gone by then :) Warner From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 17 15:14:45 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, allison via cctalk wrote: > Looked at 8086 and decided it was a 8080 with a bag on the side. > It was and still is irrational. In the days of assembly language and hand edited machine code, An 8080 with a bag on the side made it extremely quick and easy to port legacy (8080) code. An 80286 can run almost all 8086 code without further modifications. Each generation of the intel processors was easy to adopt with legacy code. LATER, the code can be rewritten to take advantage of new "features". The alternative, to start from scratch and design it correctly, means that instead of porting legacy code, everything needs to be written from scratch. For example, in the 68000, you have a processor that is NOT hampered by being a 6800/6809 with a bag on the side. And it took a while before commercial applications were ready. Consider spreadsheets on the Mac. Good ones became available, but it took a while. OTOH, Micropro had 8080 originated Wordstar running on the 5150 in weeks. It took them longer to edit the manuals than to port the code. Likewise Supercalc, etc. There are trade-offs between redesign with integrated features to do it right, VS add-on kludge bags to have maximum compatability. These days, with most stuff written in compiled high-level languages, it becomes "merely" developing the new compiler. 'course the result of compiled high-level language is not comparable to assembly/machine coding. It requires "Moore's Law" to compensate for the slower final result. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Apr 17 15:18:19 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:18:19 -0600 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 2:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, allison via cctalk wrote: > >> Looked at 8086 and decided it was a 8080 with a bag on the side. >> It was and still is irrational. >> > > OTOH, Micropro had 8080 originated Wordstar running on the 5150 in weeks. > It took them longer to edit the manuals than to port the code. > Likewise Supercalc, etc. > Part of that too was because MS-DOS provided CP/M programming interfaces, so in many ways it was CP/M with a bag on the side... Warner From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 17 15:49:43 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> OTOH, Micropro had 8080 originated Wordstar running on the 5150 in weeks. >> It took them longer to edit the manuals than to port the code. >> Likewise Supercalc, etc. On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, Warner Losh wrote: > Part of that too was because MS-DOS provided CP/M programming interfaces, > so in many ways it was CP/M with a bag on the side... Certainly. But, Q-DOS didn't have much of a bag. It was mostly a rewritten copy of CP/M with a different data structure for disk directory. LATER, starting with MS-DOS 2.00, there was a major bag of sub-directories and "unix style" file handling (file handles V File-Control-Block) And much later, for "long filenames" (Win95), MICROS~1 used a kludge bag, keeping the old 8.3 Directory structure and using "excess" directory entries for storage of the long nicknames. HINT: do NOT use "long filenames" for anything in the root directory. WINDOWS itself started as a bag hanging off of the side. Originally, MS-DOS clearly documented what was needed for a replacement command processor. (Was it 2.11? or 3.00? when IBM removed the appendix from the PC-DOS manual, and started marketing it as "PC-DOS Technical Reference Manual" (still with "appendix" page numbering)) I always found it amusing that many programs (even FORMAT!) would fail with the wrong error message if their internal DMA buffers happened to straddle a 64K block boundary. THAT was a direct result of failure to adequately integrate, or at least ERROR-CHECK!, the segment-offset kludge bag. Different device drivers and TSRs could affect at 16 byte intervals where the segment of a program ended up loading. It was NOT hard to normalize the Segment:Offset address and MOVE the buffer to another location if it happened to be straddling. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 16:13:12 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 23:13:12 +0200 Subject: Jobs, McGowan and Olsen In-Reply-To: References: <916C636E1D95486C88FF0BA8C181473C@310e2> Message-ID: On 11 August 2014 at 00:37, Jason T wrote: > On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 12:40 PM, MikeS wrote: > >> - 'Digital Man/Digital World': Ken Olsen/DEC's growth and ultimate decline. >> (No doubt everyone here except myself had already seen this one ;-) > > Now streaming for free off of WFYI's site: > > http://video.wfyi.org/video/2282149336/ *Finally* got round to watching this. Rather moving, and makes me glad I own a little bit of DEC kit even now. Thanks for sharing it! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 17 17:29:13 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 23:29:13 +0100 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10760746-91a6-e03f-be6c-3abbe757b931@dunnington.plus.com> On 17/04/2018 14:25, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 7:12 PM, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>> Many of us think that the advent of the x86 architecture is what led to >>> masochism. >> ... or masochism led to the x86 architecture. > I think you are confused maybe. Wasn't it sadism? Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 17 20:43:59 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:43:59 -0600 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <381df204-a229-8bfa-8d6b-4dea34c8723d@sydex.com> References: <20180415014014.63E1D4E88F@mx2.ezwind.net> <381df204-a229-8bfa-8d6b-4dea34c8723d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <66ba2237-799a-ffd0-1bba-92d925abbbe5@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/16/2018 9:48 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Back in the day, I often fantasized at what I would do if I had a > processor 10 times faster than the 70s supercomputer I was using. > Little did I suspect that I'd be using the processing power 40-some > years later to watch TV. > > --Chuck > And most likely the same TV from the 1970's and MOVIES from the 80's. YES LUKE I AM YOUR FATHER. How ever today it waiting for some server to to send megabytes of data a second not how many numbers you can crunch. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 17 21:18:33 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: <66ba2237-799a-ffd0-1bba-92d925abbbe5@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20180415014014.63E1D4E88F@mx2.ezwind.net> <381df204-a229-8bfa-8d6b-4dea34c8723d@sydex.com> <66ba2237-799a-ffd0-1bba-92d925abbbe5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On 4/16/2018 9:48 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Back in the day, I often fantasized at what I would do if I had a >> processor 10 times faster than the 70s supercomputer I was using. >> Little did I suspect that I'd be using the processing power 40-some >> years later to watch TV. On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > And most likely the same TV from the 1970's > and MOVIES from the 80's. YES LUKE I AM YOUR FATHER. > How ever today it waiting for some server to to send > megabytes of data a second not how many numbers you can crunch. Twilight Zone, The Prisoner, Outer Limits, One Step Beyond, Doctor Who, . . . in MP4 form, thousands of movies and TV episodes will fit on a 2TB drive. I am anxiously awaiting higher capacity thin 2.5" SATA. (yes, the 2TB drive is getting full) High speed is handy for Handbrake. "Hyperland"! (1990 (PRE WWW) Douglas Adams, Ted Nelson, Tom Baker about the future of the internet. I have created a subtitles/captions SRT file for it!) From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Apr 17 23:00:59 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 00:00:59 -0400 Subject: Online ticketing is open for VCF East Message-ID: <4276fdff-6ca1-abf3-ce23-bd14552095f3@snarc.net> http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-east/tickets/ Note: Your paypal email confirmation is your ticket. A record of your purchase will be at the door when you arrive at VCF East. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From tingox at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 04:50:42 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 11:50:42 +0200 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> References: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 9:01 PM, W2HX via cctech wrote: > Hi friends. I have a 1990's vintage commercial radio system that uses an 80C85A CPU. I am looking to hopefully modify the firmware to make some small changes in its behavior. The firmware is contained in two EPROMS. > > > Can anyone recommend a decent disassembler to use with this? Preferably something that ran in windows 10 or windows 7? A dos box would be fine too. > > Since it has not been mentioned yet: NF6X's dismantler supports the 8085 (and a couple of other CPUs): https://github.com/NF6X/dismantler It is written in Python, so it should run on any platform where Python is available. From the description "semiautomatic code recognition" and "allows binary files to be disassembled from the command line". Note: I haven't used it yet, so I have no personal experience of whether it is good or not. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From tingox at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 04:55:40 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 11:55:40 +0200 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> Message-ID: For the simulator part, perhaps GNUSim8085 can be used: https://gnusim8085.github.io/ Again, I have no personal experience with it (yet). HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Apr 18 15:37:27 2018 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (mark at wickensonline.co.uk) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:37:27 +0100 Subject: Datatronics battery powered 2400P modem Message-ID: <00f601d3d755$10f41520$32dc3f60$@wickensonline.co.uk> I have one of these, see the photos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/CnLnSKTCzHETzpOo1 It was bought new by myself a few years back. It can run off a PP9 battery. ?10 shipped in the UK if anyone is interested. Regards, Mark. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Apr 18 15:49:11 2018 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (mark at wickensonline.co.uk) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:49:11 +0100 Subject: AlphaServer 300 4/266 Message-ID: <010101d3d756$b4e1e9e0$1ea5bda0$@wickensonline.co.uk> Good condition AlphaServer 300, always been stored in dry conditions. Photos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/5N66yIlEUCYkuh012 It has a TGA based DEC graphics card that will do 1280x1024 24 bit (it's a ZLXp-E2 PBXGA-BA) - manual included. Ultrawide 16-bit SCSI card Brand new Seagate Cheetah 15K.4 36.7GB,Internal,15000RPM,3.5" (ST336754LW) HDD Ultraplex SCSI CDROM drive. Running OpenVMS Alpha 8.3 with CDE. Can also run tru64 5.x. All working as it should be. Very quiet system. Can provide copies of media if required. ?175 + postage at cost. I can supply an LK461 keyboard and mouse for an additional ?25. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Apr 18 16:19:10 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:19:10 -0500 Subject: Big old Telex terminal Message-ID: <032701d3d75a$e511bdd0$af353970$@com> https://www.recycledgoods.com/telex-277d-terminal-with-95146r011-keyboard-ib m-model-2-compatible/ Not affiliated with seller, etc. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 17:47:02 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:47:02 -0600 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <20180415014014.63E1D4E88F@mx2.ezwind.net> <381df204-a229-8bfa-8d6b-4dea34c8723d@sydex.com> <66ba2237-799a-ffd0-1bba-92d925abbbe5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 8:18 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > thousands of movies and TV episodes will fit on a 2TB drive. > I am anxiously awaiting higher capacity thin 2.5" SATA. > You can get an 8TB drive in 2.5" form factor, but it doesn't contain spinning rust, and it costs around $6000. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 18:01:39 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 18:01:39 -0500 Subject: Kaypro II keyboard fault / keyswitches wanted Message-ID: <2a6671a3-0402-f2c4-400a-fc01f48680f7@gmail.com> Hey all, I snagged a Kaypro II a short while ago which I finally got around to looking at. After some minor TLC to the drives, it's booting. However, the keyboard appears unresponsive. Pressing keys (with the exception of caps-lock, the two shifts, and ctrl) results in a buzz/click from within the keyboard - if I'm interpreting the schematics right, the click is actually driven by the system in response to a keypress, which suggests that my keyswitches are OK (I believe these use a foam disc approach, which are prone to deterioration) and that keyboard data is being received OK (at least on some low level). Any suggestions for possible things to investigate? It doesn't feel like a memory fault, given that it's using 64kx1 ICs and booting as far as a prompt, but I suppose it's possible. On the back of this, I'm in need of three keyswitches, if anyone happens to have a parts machine and would be willing to sell any. A student of the machine's previous owner dropped the keyboard years ago and broke three of the keys off. I have the keycaps, but the switch stems are broken and it would probably be easier to replace the entire stem portions rather than attempting to glue things back together. cheers Jules From brain at jbrain.com Wed Apr 18 18:02:57 2018 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 18:02:57 -0500 Subject: Kaypro II keyboard fault / keyswitches wanted In-Reply-To: <2a6671a3-0402-f2c4-400a-fc01f48680f7@gmail.com> References: <2a6671a3-0402-f2c4-400a-fc01f48680f7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/18/2018 6:01 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > Hey all, > > I snagged a Kaypro II a short while ago which I finally got around to > looking at. After some minor TLC to the drives, it's booting. > > However, the keyboard appears unresponsive. Pressing keys (with the > exception of caps-lock, the two shifts, and ctrl) results in a > buzz/click from within the keyboard - if I'm interpreting the > schematics right, the click is actually driven by the system in > response to a keypress, which suggests that my keyswitches are OK (I > believe these use a foam disc approach, which are prone to > deterioration) and that keyboard data is being received OK (at least > on some low level). > > Any suggestions for possible things to investigate? It doesn't feel > like a memory fault, given that it's using 64kx1 ICs and booting as > far as a prompt, but I suppose it's possible. > > On the back of this, I'm in need of three keyswitches, if anyone > happens to have a parts machine and would be willing to sell any. A > student of the machine's previous owner dropped the keyboard years ago > and broke three of the keys off. I have the keycaps, but the switch > stems are broken and it would probably be easier to replace the entire > stem portions rather than attempting to glue things back together. > > cheers > > Jules Can't help on the diag, but wanted to stay tuned in if keyswitches are available.? Been hunting for a few for a few years. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 18 19:32:59 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 18:32:59 -0600 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <20180415014014.63E1D4E88F@mx2.ezwind.net> <381df204-a229-8bfa-8d6b-4dea34c8723d@sydex.com> <66ba2237-799a-ffd0-1bba-92d925abbbe5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 4/18/2018 4:47 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 8:18 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> thousands of movies and TV episodes will fit on a 2TB drive. >> I am anxiously awaiting higher capacity thin 2.5" SATA. >> > > You can get an 8TB drive in 2.5" form factor, but it doesn't contain > spinning rust, and it costs around $6000. At one time you could get a $39 aerial up and get free TV like Dr Who.. Progress seems to be getting rind of the good old and bringing in the $$$. While I admit the new TV's are better res, I can not say much about what is being broadcast today is better than back then. Ben. As for the BBC and other TV networks, we seem to be getting a lot of high priced episodes that have like 3 shows per season with a 2 part Christmas special mixed in with 90% reality TV. Sigh. BTW the hardest part on my latest computer design is having a working front panel. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 18 20:55:05 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 01:55:05 +0000 Subject: Kaypro II keyboard fault / keyswitches wanted In-Reply-To: References: <2a6671a3-0402-f2c4-400a-fc01f48680f7@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Here you go: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-9000-SIRIUS-1-Keyboard-repair-Foam-Pads-for-KeyTronic-Keyboards/121266887970?hash=item1c3c11dd22:g:HRYAAOSw91NTtPPK [https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/121266887970-0-1/s-l1000.jpg] Victor 9000 / SIRIUS 1 Keyboard repair, Foam Pads for KeyTronic Keyboards | eBay www.ebay.com Besteht aus einem Schaumstoff Pad, dass nun nach rund drei?ig Jahren sein Lebensende erreicht hat. Der Schaumstoff. Die Pads bestehen aus einem doppelseitig mit Klebefolie ausgestatteten Schaumstoff. | eBay! You still have to add the Mylar foil to them. I cut up some dollar store silver balloons. ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jim Brain via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 4:02 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Kaypro II keyboard fault / keyswitches wanted On 4/18/2018 6:01 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > Hey all, > > I snagged a Kaypro II a short while ago which I finally got around to > looking at. After some minor TLC to the drives, it's booting. > > However, the keyboard appears unresponsive. Pressing keys (with the > exception of caps-lock, the two shifts, and ctrl) results in a > buzz/click from within the keyboard - if I'm interpreting the > schematics right, the click is actually driven by the system in > response to a keypress, which suggests that my keyswitches are OK (I > believe these use a foam disc approach, which are prone to > deterioration) and that keyboard data is being received OK (at least > on some low level). > > Any suggestions for possible things to investigate? It doesn't feel > like a memory fault, given that it's using 64kx1 ICs and booting as > far as a prompt, but I suppose it's possible. > > On the back of this, I'm in need of three keyswitches, if anyone > happens to have a parts machine and would be willing to sell any. A > student of the machine's previous owner dropped the keyboard years ago > and broke three of the keys off. I have the keycaps, but the switch > stems are broken and it would probably be easier to replace the entire > stem portions rather than attempting to glue things back together. > > cheers > > Jules Can't help on the diag, but wanted to stay tuned in if keyswitches are available. Been hunting for a few for a few years. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com The Brain Trust - Things Worth Mentioning www.jbrain.com Howdy. Welcome to The Brain Trust! Thanks for dropping by! Feel free to join the discussion by leaving comments, and stay updated by subscribing to the RSS feed.See ya around! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 21:00:30 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:00:30 -0500 Subject: Kaypro II keyboard fault / keyswitches wanted In-Reply-To: <2a6671a3-0402-f2c4-400a-fc01f48680f7@gmail.com> References: <2a6671a3-0402-f2c4-400a-fc01f48680f7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <35960ba9-7aef-472c-ecc7-d94c69f3cef9@gmail.com> On 04/18/2018 06:01 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > However, the keyboard appears unresponsive. Pressing keys (with the > exception of caps-lock, the two shifts, and ctrl) results in a buzz/click > from within the keyboard - if I'm interpreting the schematics right, the > click is actually driven by the system in response to a keypress, which > suggests that my keyswitches are OK (I believe these use a foam disc > approach, which are prone to deterioration) and that keyboard data is being > received OK (at least on some low level). And we're good. It was a simple cable fault. Turns out that while the system does have the ability to make noise by sending data out to the keyboard, the keyboard click noise is generated solely within the keyboard unit - so although my +5V and ground lines on the keyboard cable were fine, the data line was not, and nothing was ever getting through to the system. I need to find a better replacement cable - the phone handset cord I'm using right now is too short - but at least the system seems healthy. Onto the cosmetics... cheers Jules From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 22:02:06 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 20:02:06 -0700 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 1:49 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > I always found it amusing that many programs (even FORMAT!) would fail > with the wrong error message if their internal DMA buffers happened to > straddle a 64K block boundary. THAT was a direct result of failure to > adequately integrate, or at least ERROR-CHECK!, the segment-offset kludge > bag. Different device drivers and TSRs could affect at 16 byte intervals > where the segment of a program ended up loading. > It was NOT hard to normalize the Segment:Offset address and MOVE the > buffer to another location if it happened to be straddling. > > Huh. I would guess that this is the source of a DOS bug that I found back in the day, reported to MS, and never heard back. Working on a large application, ground out a new release, got a call from the production (the guy that ran the floppy duplicator) that his quality control tests were failing -- the application on the floppies wouldn't start. I grabbed one, it ran on my machine ok, wouldn't run on production's test machine. Confiscated that machine and started swapping out hardware, nothing helped. Tried adding tracing code to the application to see if I could narrow down the failure point, but discovered that changing the executable would change the behavior -- a heisenbug. Eventually worked that the crash was related to the address that the executable was loaded at, which was dependent on the various TSRs that were loaded -- with the production test machine driver configuration, the load address would reliably crash the application. If I adjusted the load address to match on my machine, I would get the same crash. To figure out what the crash was about, I ended up writing a small TSR that set the "break on every instruction bit", and would push the PC and opcode out the serial port, and collected the data streams for the crashing and non-crashing configurations. Diffed the data streams to find where they were diverging. The application was large enough to have overlays -- as the program was starting up, an overlay with run-once initialization code would be read from disk and jumped into; in the crash configuration, the overlay code seemed not to be being read, or read incorrectly -- the first opcode in the overlay was wrong. Wrote a simple program that read a data file of the same size as the overlay into different locations in memory and verified that the data was read, demonstrating that DOS was failing for one buffer address but not another, documented it, and send it off to MS and told management that the bug was MS and there really wasn't anything we could do. Never heard back from them, and have actively avoided MS software ever since. A buffer boundary straddling error certainly sounds like the issue I was seeing; it feels very odd to see a plausible explanation 35 years later. -- Charles From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 18 23:20:29 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries (was: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> I always found it amusing that many programs (even FORMAT!) would fail >> with the wrong error message if their internal DMA buffers happened to >> straddle a 64K block boundary. THAT was a direct result of failure to >> adequately integrate, or at least ERROR-CHECK!, the segment-offset kludge >> bag. Different device drivers and TSRs could affect at 16 byte intervals >> where the segment of a program ended up loading. >> It was NOT hard to normalize the Segment:Offset address and MOVE the >> buffer to another location if it happened to be straddling. On Wed, 18 Apr 2018, Charles Anthony wrote: > Huh. I would guess that this is the source of a DOS bug that I found back > in the day, reported to MS, and never heard back. > . . . > A buffer boundary straddling error certainly sounds like the issue I was > seeing; it feels very odd to see a plausible explanation 35 years later. I'm learning a lot these days that would have been handy back then! Segment:Offset hides it until you normalize the resulting address. IIRC, INT13h should return a code of 09h if the DMA straddles a 64K boundary. But, not all code checks for that, or knows what to do when it happens. Looking at the value of ES:BX? can work, or, if it happens, swap your DMA buffer with one that is not used for DMA (and doesn't happen to be 64K away :-) In my code, I happened to have buffers for several purposes, so that was easy to do. If operating above Int 13H (DOS calls), then you are dependent on DOS error checking. "Can you trust THAT?" If operating below Int 13h, then be careful where your DMA ends up, work without DMA, or simply watch for occurrence. And, of course, a lot of C code can't tell the difference between end of file and a disk error. #define EOF (-1) /* depending on implementation */ while ((ptr2++ = fgetc(fp2)) != EOF); /* does not differentiate between error and end of file */ fgets() returns a null pointer for EITHER end-of-file OR error! and therefore assumes total reliability and any failure to read is assumed to be EOF. IFF available, feof(fp2) is much better. You certainly did the right thing, narrowing it down to load address. The final conclusion would have been to systematically try many/all load addresses, and see whether it was consistent for given ones, and what the failing ones had in common. Yes, the "solution" for the extraneous FORMAT failure was "add or remove TSRs and device drivers"! When I first hit it, I used a P.O.S.T. card, and put in minimal code to output values until I realized that DS was the key, and that I had mishandled error #9. Eventually I realized that even for code not my own, I needed to write a TSR intercepting Int 13H calls. (For exampole, the critical error handler in certain early versions of PC-Tools was more concerned with protecting their pretty display than success of writes!) Microsoft's response to error reporting was amusing. I was in the Windows 3.10 Beta, and encountered the SMARTDRV write caching problem. There was apparently a flaw on one of my drives, that neither SPINRITE nor SSTOR could find. But, during Windoze installation, a write would fail, and with write caching ON (Windoze installation did NOT give you a choice), there was no way to recover from a write error! (SMARTDRV had already told SETUP that it had been successful, so now, when the error occured, there was no way to (I)gnore the error (figure out which file copy had failed, rename the failed copy "BADSECS", and go back later to copy that one manually). All you could do was (R)etry which didn't work, or (A)bort, which cancelled the entire setup before it ever wrote the directory entries for the files that had worked. By loading a bunch of space filler files on the disk, I was able to get the installation to be in a working area. Once I finally determined WHERE the bad track was, I put in a filler file to keep it from being used. (SPINRITE tried to return it to use when I just marked it as BAD!) Microsoft's response was, "YOU have a HARDWARE problem. NOT OUR PROBLEM." I was unable to either convince them that CORRECT response to a hardware problem was a responsibility of the OS, NOR that SMARTDRV with write-caching was going to cause a lot of data losses that they would get blamed for, inspite of it not be narrowed down to SMARTDRV, and that it would end up costing them a lot. Sho'nuff, COMPRESSION got blamed for the data losses. DOS 6.2x had to be put out for FREE to fix "the problems with compression". The "problems with compression" were fixed by having SMARTDRV NOT default to write caching ON, have SMARTDRV NOT rearrange writes for efficiency (it wasn't writing DIRectory sectors until later), and having SMARTDRV NOT returning a DOS prompt until its buffers were emptied. (One of the common losses was people would save a file, and turn off the computer as soon as the word processor came back to the DOS prompt. SMARTDRV had not finished writing their file! When my girlfriend went back to school for some classes, she would stand with her coat on, pulling on the paper as her homework printed, then kit ^KD? and turn off the computer.) I was not invited to be in the 3.11, nor WIN95, Betas. They wanted cheerleaders, not testers, anyway. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 18 23:44:45 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:44:45 -0700 Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d283bf2-4a83-5734-6664-c940c682f2ae@sydex.com> On 04/18/2018 09:20 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> I always found it amusing that many programs (even FORMAT!) would fail >>> with the wrong error message if their internal DMA buffers happened to >>> straddle a 64K block boundary.? THAT was a direct result of failure to >>> adequately integrate, or at least ERROR-CHECK!, the segment-offset >>> kludge >>> bag.? Different device drivers and TSRs could affect at 16 byte >>> intervals >>> where the segment of a program ended up loading. >>> It was NOT hard to normalize the Segment:Offset address and MOVE the >>> buffer to another location if it happened to be straddling. > > On Wed, 18 Apr 2018, Charles Anthony wrote: >> Huh. I would guess that this is the source of a DOS bug that I found back >> in the day, reported to MS, and never heard back. >> . . . A buffer boundary straddling error certainly sounds like the >> issue I was >> seeing; it feels very odd to see a plausible explanation 35 years later. > > I'm learning a lot these days that would have been handy back then! > > Segment:Offset hides it until you normalize the resulting address. > IIRC, INT13h should return a code of 09h if the DMA straddles a 64K > boundary. > But, not all code checks for that, or knows what to do when it happens. > Looking at the value of ES:BX? can work, or, if it happens, swap your > DMA buffer with one that is not used for DMA (and doesn't happen to be > 64K away :-)? In my code, I happened to have buffers for several > purposes, so that was easy to do. > If operating above Int 13H (DOS calls), then you are dependent on DOS > error checking.? "Can you trust THAT?" > If operating below Int 13h, then be careful where your DMA ends up, work > without DMA, or simply watch for occurrence. > > And, of course, a lot of C code can't tell the difference between end of > file and a disk error. > #define EOF (-1)??? /* depending on implementation */ > while ((ptr2++ = fgetc(fp2)) != EOF); /* does not differentiate between > error and end of file */ fgets() returns a null pointer for EITHER > end-of-file OR error! > and therefore assumes total reliability and any failure to read is > assumed to be EOF. > IFF available, feof(fp2) is much better. > > > You certainly did the right thing, narrowing it down to load address.? > The final conclusion would have been to systematically try many/all load > addresses, and see whether it was consistent for given ones, and what > the failing ones had in common. > > Yes, the "solution" for the extraneous FORMAT failure was "add or remove > TSRs and device drivers"! > > When I first hit it, I used a P.O.S.T. card, and put in minimal code to > output values until I realized that DS was the key, and that I had > mishandled error #9.? Eventually I realized that even for code not my > own, I needed to write a TSR intercepting Int 13H calls. > (For exampole, the critical error handler in certain early versions of > PC-Tools was more concerned with protecting their pretty display than > success of writes!) > > > Microsoft's response to error reporting was amusing. > > I was in the Windows 3.10 Beta, and encountered the SMARTDRV write > caching problem.? There was apparently a flaw on one of my drives, that > neither SPINRITE nor SSTOR could find.? But, during Windoze > installation, a write would fail, and with write caching ON (Windoze > installation did NOT give you a choice), there was no way to recover > from a write error! > (SMARTDRV had already told SETUP that it had been successful, so now, > when the error occured, there was no way to (I)gnore the error (figure > out which file copy had failed, rename the failed copy "BADSECS", and go > back later to copy that one manually).? All you could do was (R)etry > which didn't work, or (A)bort, which cancelled the entire setup before > it ever wrote the directory entries for the files that had worked. By > loading a bunch of space filler files on the disk, I was able to get the > installation to be in a working area. > Once I finally determined WHERE the bad track was, I put in a filler > file to keep it from being used.? (SPINRITE tried to return it to use > when I just marked it as BAD!) > > Microsoft's response was, "YOU have a HARDWARE problem.? NOT OUR PROBLEM." > I was unable to either convince them that CORRECT response to a hardware > problem was a responsibility of the OS, NOR that SMARTDRV with > write-caching was going to cause a lot of data losses that they would > get blamed for, inspite of it not be narrowed down to SMARTDRV, and that > it would end up costing them a lot. > > Sho'nuff, COMPRESSION got blamed for the data losses. > > DOS 6.2x had to be put out for FREE to fix "the problems with compression". > The "problems with compression" were fixed by having SMARTDRV NOT > default to write caching ON, have SMARTDRV NOT rearrange writes for > efficiency (it wasn't writing DIRectory sectors until later), and having > SMARTDRV NOT returning a DOS prompt until its buffers were emptied. > (One of the common losses was people would save a file, and turn off the > computer as soon as the word processor came back to the DOS prompt. > SMARTDRV had not finished writing their file!? When my girlfriend went > back to school for some classes, she would stand with her coat on, > pulling on the paper as her homework printed, then kit ^KD? and turn off > the computer.) > > I was not invited to be in the 3.11, nor WIN95, Betas. > They wanted cheerleaders, not testers, anyway. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com > > -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 18 23:50:39 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:50:39 -0700 Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> Message-ID: Really? 64K boundary issues cropping up in MS-DOS? Egad, that would have been known in DOS 1.0. Certainly, for anyone writing his/her own low-level disk I/O, it was obvious. Now, I'll add that if you wrote your own specialized device driver, DOS did not guarantee handing your driver a buffer that obeyed the 64K boundary rule. I suspect that some DOS errors were reported to MS because of third-party driver bugs. And if you wrote a low-level driver that used 16-bit I/O, the magic number was 128K. But even in the earlies DOS 2.0 device drivers that I wrote, I included code to split the transfer up to get around the 64K problem if needed. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 18 12:04:47 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:04:47 -0700 Subject: Scanned paperback book "RSX A User's Guide" In-Reply-To: <5FF3FC8F-4A9D-44AE-B676-0A6F1D748A35@MatlockFamily.com> References: <5FF3FC8F-4A9D-44AE-B676-0A6F1D748A35@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: <92b9262a-f2c5-85c4-88d5-ef1266ca8197@bitsavers.org> On 4/16/18 7:54 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: > I?d like to make it available online it is online now http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsx11/Pieper_RSX_A_Guide_For_Users_1987.pdf From kevin at lee.scot Wed Apr 18 14:06:07 2018 From: kevin at lee.scot (Kevin Lee) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 19:06:07 +0000 Subject: Scanned paperback book "RSX A User's Guide" In-Reply-To: <92b9262a-f2c5-85c4-88d5-ef1266ca8197@bitsavers.org> References: <5FF3FC8F-4A9D-44AE-B676-0A6F1D748A35@MatlockFamily.com> <92b9262a-f2c5-85c4-88d5-ef1266ca8197@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thanks for this great contribution.. it really gives me a heads up To rsx that I might need in the coming months. Cheers -----Original Message----- From: cctech On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctech Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2018 19:05 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Scanned paperback book "RSX A User's Guide" On 4/16/18 7:54 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: > I?d like to make it available online it is online now http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsx11/Pieper_RSX_A_Guide_For_Users_1987.pdf From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 14:09:12 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 14:09:12 -0500 Subject: Scanned paperback book "RSX A User's Guide" In-Reply-To: <92b9262a-f2c5-85c4-88d5-ef1266ca8197@bitsavers.org> References: <5FF3FC8F-4A9D-44AE-B676-0A6F1D748A35@MatlockFamily.com> <92b9262a-f2c5-85c4-88d5-ef1266ca8197@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:04 PM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > it is online now > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsx11/Pieper_RSX_A_Guide_For_Users_1987.pdf D'oh - I was already working on trimming up Mark's copy and OCRing it. I got the cover scans from him as well. My document is here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fbooks%2FComputing/OperatingSystems -j From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 16:04:40 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:04:40 -0400 Subject: One wafer-thin mint (VAX 4000-200 for sale) Message-ID: The VAX 4000-200 I exhibited two years ago at VCF East is up for sale: Restoration Notes: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=608 I don't need it as much anymore now that it's pretty much a completed project. It's very upgrade-able though if you have the desire to boost performance and ports, etc. The provenance of this machine, I believe, was as part of WVLink a West Virginia email/gopher/USNET type ISP server in the early-mid 1990's. I have it set up for telnet communications if interested. Contact me via http://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm Bill From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Apr 18 21:17:34 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 19:17:34 -0700 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <1523905311369.15540@w2hx.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 18, 2018, at 2:50 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctech wrote: > > Since it has not been mentioned yet: NF6X's dismantler supports the > 8085 (and a couple of other CPUs): https://github.com/NF6X/dismantler > It is written in Python, so it should run on any platform where Python > is available. From the description "semiautomatic code recognition" > and "allows binary files to be disassembled from the command line". My main motivation for writing dismantler was that I was intrigued by recursive-descent disassemblers such as IDA (which I had seen in use in videos, blog posts and presentations), but didn't want to pay for IDA at the time. I've recently purchased IDA Starter, so I may not use my own disassembler any more for future reverse engineering projects. Dismantler is a pale shadow of IDA, but it's still a big improvement over the simple disassemblers I've used in previous reverse engineering projects. Some of the future reverse engineering projects I have on my to-do list involve the CDP1802 processor, which IDA presently doesn't support. When I get to them I'll have to decide whether to use dismantler vs. learning how to add CDP1802 support to IDA. I'm leaning towards the latter, because IDA is so much fancier than dismantler is. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 00:55:02 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 22:55:02 -0700 Subject: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip In-Reply-To: References: <023401d3d551$cb9f0520$62dd0f60$@gmail.com> <6ECFF08E-E037-4958-89D5-CEE48361E263@gmail.com> <032f01d3d5e9$0ce33730$26a9a590$@gmail.com> <0fe35e10-779f-d7a6-13e4-ed4cb4bc34f7@sydex.com> <5E5CC1A2-2011-4F01-97B9-70078CDE5D1B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1AE03E0F-E5A1-4A2F-8CC7-AA842797D608@gmail.com> Actually the TL866A universal programmer comes with a PLCC-32 adapter included for about $50, including slo-mo shipment from the other end of the world and the extra tariff for the Chinese steel that must be hiding in it. And probably sharing a ride in the same boat, I should get some W29C020P?s. Which might chooch or not, on account of them containing either real or fake chips. In the latter case I will only will have lost a few American rupees and I can leave a blistering negative comment to further sink the already alarmingly low rating of my seller before he switches identity. So odds are in my favor. All electro-magically transacted on ePay based on fuzzy pictures for the gullible and funny money from PayBuddy. Oh the miracles of your new world economy. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: geneb , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 7:09 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Help on a 1998 Award BIOS chip On Mon, 16 Apr 2018, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: On Apr 16, 2018, at 6:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 04/16/2018 06:11 PM, CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote: And lifting the sticker reveals the BIOS chip is just a W29C020P-12, a regular 256k x 8 Flash memory, 5V chip. Duh. Mystery solved. Of course way newer and with many more address lines than my DataIO 29B can read and program. Time has come to buy a small, modern, cheap, infinitely capable Chinesium EEPROM programmer. Read: the kind of practical, affordable, sensical and useful equipment I usually steer away from. Ebay here I come. Or make a programmer with an Arduino, since it's 5V. Hmmm, you don't happen to be a subscriber to AvE's Youtube channel, perhaps? --Chuck Why... Would that be good or would that be bad? Keep your disk in a vice! :-) Marc Just make sure that the programmer you get chooches properly. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Apr 19 02:03:26 2018 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (mark at wickensonline.co.uk) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:03:26 +0100 Subject: Absolute OpenBSD book Message-ID: <014801d3d7ac$840b82d0$8c228870$@wickensonline.co.uk> This is available for the cost of postage. https://photos.app.goo.gl/OpVKxtbXqKp2VPl52 Mark. From wrm at dW.co.za Thu Apr 19 02:54:41 2018 From: wrm at dW.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:54:41 +0200 Subject: TRS-80 bits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20180419095251.18ece0d8@nicadae.dw.co.za> Hi all I have a TRS-80 Model 2000 B/W Graphics board and a TRS-80 Card Cage kit (upgrade model 12 to model 16B) Are either of these worth shipping from the antipodes to anyone? W From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 19 06:27:20 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 07:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? Message-ID: <20180419112720.54B2518C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Anthony > discovered that changing the executable would change the behavior -- a > heisenbug. Ooh, love that neologism. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 19 08:50:01 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:50:01 -0700 Subject: FYI: IBM System/34 available in Boston, MA Message-ID: Just noticed this post on the Vintage Computer forum. I don't know a thing about it: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63253-IBM-System-34-5340 --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Thu Apr 19 08:55:50 2018 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:55:50 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 bits In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20180419095251.18ece0d8@nicadae.dw.co.za> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20180419095251.18ece0d8@nicadae.dw.co.za> Message-ID: On 4/19/2018 2:54 AM, Wouter de Waal via cctech wrote: > Hi all > > I have a TRS-80 Model 2000 B/W Graphics board and a TRS-80 Card Cage > kit (upgrade model 12 to model 16B) > > Are either of these worth shipping from the antipodes to anyone? > > W > Hmm, I guess it does indeed depend on shipping costs, but I am looking for a card cage for the 12, and they can be a bit tough to find. Feel free to contact me off list, I live in Iowa, USA -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 10:30:08 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:30:08 -0700 Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries (was: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 9:20 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > You certainly did the right thing, narrowing it down to load address. The > final conclusion would have been to systematically try many/all load > addresses, and see whether it was consistent for given ones, and what the > failing ones had in common. > > I was coming from a DEC environment (VMS, RT-11/ RSTS) -- produce a repeatable demonstration of a error and send it off; a few weeks later a fix appears. MS's failure to respond confirmed my suspicions; they were a commodity software company. (That is a perfectly valid business model, but staking your own business success on them their behavior is a real risk.0 > > > I was not invited to be in the 3.11, nor WIN95, Betas. > They wanted cheerleaders, not testers, anyway. > We received the SDK for the very first Windows. We looked at it and laughed and laughed. You can still see the design flaw in today's Windows. Much later, having fled the MS ecosystem, I was working on a SGI application. Attended a MS seminar for the first NT release -- it featured OpenGL support and they wanted all of the SGI developers to migrate. I spend an entire day listening to them telling my how wonderful NT was. What I learned could have been covered in three minutes: * OpenGL support was a port of the reference driver, slow and buggy. Hardware manufacturers would provide "real" OpenGL drivers. Of course, they would focus on the gaming market, not data visualization, so the chances of a usable implementation was low, plus the cost of losing customers who made a poor hardware selection based on the manufacturer's claim that they are OpenGL compliant. It is possible to write an OpenGL compliant driver for a light bulb; it is no guarantee that you will be able to do data visualization. * Despite the fact that (as I have heard quoted, but cannot give a citation) 80% of an application is UI, there was no support for X11 semantics, so we would have to rewrite all of that code for the [patently broken] Windows semantics. We did not migrate, and I still waiting for MS to apologize for wasting a day of my time with their delusions of grandeur. -- Charles From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 10:37:05 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:37:05 +0200 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: <20180419112720.54B2518C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180419112720.54B2518C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 19 April 2018 at 13:27, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Charles Anthony > > > discovered that changing the executable would change the behavior -- a > > heisenbug. > > Ooh, love that neologism. I don't know when a word stops being new, but that one is a good 35 years old: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenbug -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 10:38:34 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:38:34 +0200 Subject: 8085 Dissasembly? In-Reply-To: References: <20180419112720.54B2518C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 19 April 2018 at 17:37, Liam Proven wrote: > > I don't know when a word stops being new, but that one is a good 35 years old: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenbug (But saying that, I like it, too. Even as a rookie programmer around the time it was defined, in my trivial programs, I'd seen them.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dave at 661.org Thu Apr 19 14:00:49 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 19:00:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Intel HEX formats Message-ID: I'm trying to understand various hex formats so I can add them as output options to minipro[1]. I went looking for existing code to convert binary to Intel hex and found repeated copies and references to "format83.c" by Erik Lindberg. It seems to do what I want, but I'm unclear what "Intel HEX 83 format" is supposed to mean. Based on what I see at http://www.math.purdue.edu/~wilker/misc/DEVEL/0036/A-6804/BIN2INT.C, this program only creates hex files in the I8HEX format, as described in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_HEX. Of course, I'm going to have to support the I16HEX and I32HEX formats too. Based on what I find in format83.c, this shouldn't be too much trouble, but I really want to know what "Intel HEX 83" is supposed to mean. [1] https://github.com/vdudouyt/minipro/ -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 19 14:14:33 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 12:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, it was a "beginner" mistake to not already know that the DMA couldn't span a 64K boundary. It is obvious. Once you've already run into it. I have no difficulty admitting that I didn't, and don't, have Chuck's level of experience and knowledge. My entire venture into microcomputers was a hobby that got out of hand. > > I'm learning a lot these days that would have been handy back then! There are numerous people here whose posts present significant information. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Wed, 18 Apr 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Really? 64K boundary issues cropping up in MS-DOS? > > Egad, that would have been known in DOS 1.0. Certainly, for anyone > writing his/her own low-level disk I/O, it was obvious. > > Now, I'll add that if you wrote your own specialized device driver, DOS > did not guarantee handing your driver a buffer that obeyed the 64K > boundary rule. I suspect that some DOS errors were reported to MS > because of third-party driver bugs. > > And if you wrote a low-level driver that used 16-bit I/O, the magic > number was 128K. > > But even in the earlies DOS 2.0 device drivers that I wrote, I included > code to split the transfer up to get around the 64K problem if needed. > > --Chuck From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 19 14:39:50 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:39:50 -0500 Subject: Last call for free old manuals Message-ID: <012201d3d816$2ec21db0$8c465910$@com> I have many cases of SAMS facts schematics and other repair manuals for everything from stereos, tube TVs, ham radios, turntables, etc. Most apply to equip from the 60s and 70s or maybe a little earlier. Free to a good home or they go in the recycle bucket tomorrow. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Apr 19 14:42:19 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 21:42:19 +0200 Subject: Speed now & then In-Reply-To: References: <20180415014014.63E1D4E88F@mx2.ezwind.net> <381df204-a229-8bfa-8d6b-4dea34c8723d@sydex.com> <66ba2237-799a-ffd0-1bba-92d925abbbe5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20180419194219.dhcucfozpbevewfy@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 06:32:59PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 4/18/2018 4:47 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 8:18 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk >> wrote: >>> thousands of movies and TV episodes will fit on a 2TB drive. I am anxiously >>> awaiting higher capacity thin 2.5" SATA. >> You can get an 8TB drive in 2.5" form factor, but it doesn't contain >> spinning rust, and it costs around $6000. alternate.nl, my local boxshifter, is offering a 4TB 2.5" disk for ?164.90. (Whether this price includes the Dutch "you may now pirate all the things" copyright levy, I don't know.) Sadly, it's both Seagate and shingled-recording. Okay for backups and similar streaming write-once workloads, but awful as general-purpose storage. A common problem with large-capacity 2.5" disks is that they're 15mm high so don't fit in laptops or similar consumer electronics. 15mm is more of an enterprise storage standard that has leaked out. > At one time you could get a $39 aerial up and get free TV like Dr Who.. > Progress seems to be getting rind of the good old and bringing in the $$$. There's still plenty of free TV out there. Most of it's not even worth what you paid for it. [...] > As for the BBC and other TV networks, we seem to be getting a lot of high > priced episodes that have like 3 shows per season with a 2 part Christmas > special mixed in with 90% reality TV. Given you're quoting prices in dollars, I guess you're talking about the botch job found on American cable, and the BBC is a rather different beast on its home turf, where they manage to broadcast more than endless Top Bloody Gear repeats. In the UK you can just use said cheap UHF aerial to receive it, although you are supposed to also pay ~?150/year for a TV Licence. From drb at msu.edu Thu Apr 19 14:45:13 2018 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:45:13 -0400 Subject: Intel HEX formats In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 19 Apr 2018 19:00:49 -0000.) References: Message-ID: <20180419194513.EF236A584E9@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Based on what I find in format83.c, this shouldn't be too much > trouble, but I really want to know what "Intel HEX 83" is supposed to > mean. The easily findable specification document for "intel hex", which has intel branding and copyright, is revision A and dated 1988, so perhaps "83" is a reference to the original version's year of publication. De From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 15:08:25 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:08:25 -0600 Subject: Intel HEX formats In-Reply-To: <20180419194513.EF236A584E9@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20180419194513.EF236A584E9@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Based on what I find in format83.c, this shouldn't be too much > > trouble, but I really want to know what "Intel HEX 83" is supposed to > > mean. > > The easily findable specification document for "intel hex", which has > intel branding and copyright, is revision A and dated 1988, so perhaps > "83" is a reference to the original version's year of publication. > The format is much older than that, and although it's possible that there may have been a 1983 edition of that document, it seems more likely that the author of the software in question chose 83 because that was the format number that Data I/O assigned for use with their device programmers. Data I/O refers to it as "Intel Intellec 8/MDS". Here's a list of Data I/O formats recognized by the UniSite/2900/3900 family programmers: http://ftp.dataio.com/main/Manuals/UniFam/Translation%20Formats.pdf From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 19 16:14:08 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:14:08 -0500 Subject: old schematics books Message-ID: <017501d3d823$5b8e6530$12ab2f90$@com> These have now been claimed. Thanks everybody! Sean I need an address please! Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Apr 19 16:46:56 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:46:56 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?what_happened=C2=A0to_the_dec_thing_with_the_butterfly_discs_?= =?UTF-8?Q?never_heard_back_I_need_it_f?= =?UTF-8?Q?or_museum_thanks=C2=A0cindy_=C2=A0_=C2=A0ed?= Message-ID: <162dfdfe197-c8b-4e37@webjas-vae207.srv.aolmail.net> what happened?to the dec thing with the butterfly discs never heard back I need it for museum thanks?cindy ? ?ed From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 11:19:45 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 10:19:45 -0600 Subject: new disassembler vs IDA (was Re: 8085 Dissasembly?) Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 8:17 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Some of the future reverse engineering projects I have on my to-do list > involve the CDP1802 processor, which IDA presently doesn't support. When I > get to them I'll have to decide whether to use dismantler vs. learning how > to add CDP1802 support to IDA. I'm leaning towards the latter, because IDA > is so much fancier than dismantler is. I'd vote for adding it to dismantler. I had an IDA Pro license at one point, but I seem to have misplaced it, and it is too old to get me any discount on a new release. I imagine that IDA has probably improved a lot since back then, but at the time it had a pretty awful user interface. If I had an actual business need to reverse-engineer something using a processor that IDA supported, I'd certainly buy a new IDA license, but I wouldn't personally invest any time in building add-ons for expensive commercial software, when there are open source alternatives that may not be as good, but are generally good enough. For the 1802, I've used a really crude disassembler written in C. The 1802 instruction set isn't very complicated, so a disassembler for it isn't either. It's been so many years since I actually disassembled 1802 code that I'm not sure I still have the disassembler around. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 19 18:16:21 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:16:21 -0700 Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> Message-ID: <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> On 04/19/2018 12:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I have no difficulty admitting that I didn't, and don't, have > Chuck's level of experience and knowledge. My entire venture into > microcomputers was a hobby that got out of hand. It's not so much expertise, but where you start your investigations. Right when I peered into the 5150, I saw the 8237 DMA controller (first cousin to the 8257) and recognized it from my 8-bit (8085) days. It was immediately obvious that IBM had taken a bunch of legacy 8 bit peripheral chips and shoved them into the PC. In fact, the 5150 was surprising in that how primitive the engineering was--something you didn't expect from a high-tech pioneer like IBM. So the DMA address space had to be 16 bits with simple bank select--using a disk controller chip that was design to be used with 8 inch drives. The Technical Reference BIOS listing confirmed the suspicion that the 5150 implementation couldn't cross 64K banks. It had nothing to do with DOS, per se. At the same time the PC debuted, we were working with early steppings of the 80186, which did feature two channels of 20-bit address DMA--and 16 bit bus width to boot. So, at the time, looking at the 5150, it was an overpriced primitive implementation using a 1970s CPU. Many people at the time thought it would be less popular than the 5100. Rather than buy my first 5150, I was strongly drawn to the NEC APC. For about the same price as an outfitted 5150, you could buy a true 16 bit box with 8" disk drives and really nice graphics that was built like a battleship. The only problem is that nobody had ever heard of it. But IBM had the golden reputation. Many people at the time, particularly the older ones, didn't talk about "computers" so much as "IBM machines". --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Apr 19 18:46:10 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:46:10 -0700 Subject: new disassembler vs IDA (was Re: 8085 Dissasembly?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 19, 2018, at 9:19 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > For the 1802, I've used a really crude disassembler written in C. The 1802 > instruction set isn't very complicated, so a disassembler for it isn't > either. It's been so many years since I actually disassembled 1802 code > that I'm not sure I still have the disassembler around. Well, you're welcome to use dismantler on CDP1802 code! :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Apr 19 18:49:10 2018 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 20:49:10 -0300 Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20180419234915.708F91A00273@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Chuck Guzis pointed out that the PC was built from 8 bit peripheral chips, which was where the 64KB problem came from. When I saw the design, I thought it was really cute how they were able to use one of the timer channels and one of the DMA channels to implement a DRAM refresh circuit almost "for free". Steve Jobs made fun of the design showing that just the CGA board had more chips in it than the whole Macintosh. Sure, PALs eliminate a lot of chips but so did 6845. Sadly, the PC AT was a lot less elegant. My impression was that they divided the project among separate groups who weren't perfectly coordinated. How many different ways does a single computer need to translate key scan codes to ASCII, for example? And there was a circuit with a bunch of TTLs just to generate the exact same signal that the clock chip was already generating. That didn't make sense until you found it came from an application note about the Multibus - if you have more than one processor than the signal is no longer the same. This allowed them to add the MASTER line in the ISA bus which would have been neat if it actually worked. -- Jecel From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 19 19:16:50 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> I have no difficulty admitting that I didn't, and don't, have >> Chuck's level of experience and knowledge. My entire venture into >> microcomputers was a hobby that got out of hand. On Thu, 19 Apr 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > It's not so much expertise, but where you start your investigations. > Right when I peered into the 5150, I saw the 8237 DMA controller (first > cousin to the 8257) and recognized it from my 8-bit (8085) days. It was > immediately obvious that IBM had taken a bunch of legacy 8 bit > peripheral chips and shoved them into the PC. In fact, the 5150 was > surprising in that how primitive the engineering was--something you > didn't expect from a high-tech pioneer like IBM. So the DMA address > space had to be 16 bits with simple bank select--using a disk controller > chip that was design to be used with 8 inch drives. > The Technical Reference BIOS listing confirmed the suspicion that the > 5150 implementation couldn't cross 64K banks. It had nothing to do with > DOS, per se. Of course not. But WHY didn't DOS programs, such as FORMAT, check whether their buffers were in usable places? Not a common problem in DOS 1.0, but by about DOS 3, DOS was much less likely to be entirely in the bottom 64K. > At the same time the PC debuted, we were working with early steppings of > the 80186, which did feature two channels of 20-bit address DMA--and 16 > bit bus width to boot. "Wisdom comes from experience. Experience is often a result of lack of wisdom." - Terry Pratchett Although I wanted to know some, I was brought up with NO background in hardware nor electronics! Is it OK to be envious? My parents were dismayed when I left aerospace FORTRAN programming and went into auto repair ("I'll get back into computers when I can afford a tabletop computer of my own. Less than 10 years.") That started to turn around when I was successful, and started supplying them with all of their cars. ("I bought this Karmann Ghia for a few hundred dollars, and did a lot of work on it. I think that you will enjoy it.") I drooled over S100, and bought the first TRS80 to show up at the store ($400, since I had learned enough to be able to hook up a tape recorder and CCTV monitor). > So, at the time, looking at the 5150, it was an overpriced primitive > implementation using a 1970s CPU. Even I could see that Segment:Offset was a kludge to get a MB of memory in a 64K machine. > Many people at the time thought it > would be less popular than the 5100. Well, it certainly SOLD way more. But, I doubt that I could barter it to John Titor for a one way ride back 55 years. > Rather than buy my first 5150, I was strongly drawn to the NEC APC. For > about the same price as an outfitted 5150, you could buy a true 16 bit > box with 8" disk drives and really nice graphics that was built like a > battleship. The only problem is that nobody had ever heard of it. > But IBM had the golden reputation. Many people at the time, > particularly the older ones, didn't talk about "computers" so much as > "IBM machines". I made a decision in August, 1981 to buy a 5150. "It probably won't be as good as many others, but, being from IBM, within a decade, most computers will be copies of it, with only a niche market for anything else." I was pleased that Apple survived. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From brain at jbrain.com Thu Apr 19 19:33:11 2018 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 19:33:11 -0500 Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> Message-ID: <897141a2-3438-f58e-e8c1-1503edf88170@jbrain.com> On 4/19/2018 6:16 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > So, at the time, looking at the 5150, it was an overpriced primitive > implementation using a 1970s CPU. Many people at the time thought it > would be less popular than the 5100. While I won't argue the technical merits of your position, I feel like we apply revisionism at times to these things. I would argue that some engineer in IBM ranks was passionately trying to convince IBM brass that IBM needed to have a stake in the personal computer space, lest other companies swallow up the market.? IBM, lumbering giant that it was, probably was reluctant to mess around with toy computers (their opinion no doubt) at all. But, someone (or someones) won the battle, and someone else had the inspirational idea to use off the shelf components, as opposed to having an IBM-branded and designed CPU, etc. Sure, they used old stuff, but it was working stuff, and I think the goal was to get something to market as quickly as possible.? Being overpriced was IBM Marketing's touch (you call it overpriced, as I manufacturer, I call it capitalism at work). Why do I even post this? Someday, the products and software designed and built by the folks in this list will be judged by those who follow us.? Possibly the rest of you have worked in industries where you were allowed to use new solutions, you had ample time to design and develop, and your marketing departments priced your solutions at a reasonable price point, but I've not had those luxuries.? Thus, I want to be fair to those before me who created things like the IBM PC architecture, not because it is a great architecture, but because they shipped a real product that added value for many folks and did so while working inside a company not known for agility.? The folks who did that deserve my respect, and when I am gone and folks look at my design choices, I hope they will respect me for doing what I could given the constraints I faced. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 19 20:37:11 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 18:37:11 -0700 Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: <897141a2-3438-f58e-e8c1-1503edf88170@jbrain.com> References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> <897141a2-3438-f58e-e8c1-1503edf88170@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 04/19/2018 05:33 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Someday, the products and software designed and built by the folks in > this list will be judged by those who follow us.? Possibly the rest of > you have worked in industries where you were allowed to use new > solutions, you had ample time to design and develop, and your marketing > departments priced your solutions at a reasonable price point, but I've > not had those luxuries.? Thus, I want to be fair to those before me who > created things like the IBM PC architecture, not because it is a great > architecture, but because they shipped a real product that added value > for many folks and did so while working inside a company not known for > agility.? The folks who did that deserve my respect, and when I am gone > and folks look at my design choices, I hope they will respect me for > doing what I could given the constraints I faced. My view is that it probably won't matter. Technology is moving so fast that it won't be long before yesterday's PCs will be viewed with the attitude that today's of "retro" PC enthusiasts view an 082 sorter. Recall that, in 1955, a lot of common culture viewed that as a "computer". (I can probably come up with a couple of contemporary cinema examples where that was exactly how one was portrayed). When I put on my future-view goggles and read about the steps being made today in AI and associated hardware technology, all of this "personal computer" hardware will seem just as primitive. Consider that the 082 dates from 1949 and the last unit rolled off the line in 1978. Now consider how antiquated a 10 year old mobile phone is viewed by most people. --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 19 21:56:17 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 19:56:17 -0700 Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 19, 2018, at 4:16 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/19/2018 12:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> I have no difficulty admitting that I didn't, and don't, have >> Chuck's level of experience and knowledge. My entire venture into >> microcomputers was a hobby that got out of hand. > It's not so much expertise, but where you start your investigations. > > Right when I peered into the 5150, I saw the 8237 DMA controller (first > cousin to the 8257) and recognized it from my 8-bit (8085) days. It was > immediately obvious that IBM had taken a bunch of legacy 8 bit > peripheral chips and shoved them into the PC. In fact, the 5150 was > surprising in that how primitive the engineering was--something you > didn't expect from a high-tech pioneer like IBM. So the DMA address > space had to be 16 bits with simple bank select--using a disk controller > chip that was design to be used with 8 inch drives. As I have mentioned previously, the 5150 was done by a relatively small team and they leveraged hardware from a product that had been released a short time prior to the 5150. That product was the System/23 which was based on the 8085. The importance of the System/23 cannot be overstated as it was the first IBM product that featured a non-IBM designed CPU. It is also the case that the entire team that developed the 5150 HW and BIOS were all from the System/23 team. The XT-bus was the way it was because it was the System/23 peripheral bus turned 180-degrees so that ?cheap? PC cards could not be used in the System/23. The fact that it used ?primitive? engineering was actually a design goal. The point of the 5150 was to create something that was simple to build and had a simple design. Due to the shoestring (for IBM) budget, the team leveraged a lot from the System/23. As to why IBM entered the PC market, the rumor was (at least at the time within IBM) was that T.J. Watson, Jr. was at an employee?s house and saw an Apple II. He said that he wanted to have IBM branded computers in IBM employees homes. That was how the IBM PC project was kicked off. BTW, I was on the System/23 team (wrote a fair amount of the ROM code) and I knew all of the folks on the PC team. Dr. Dave Bradley (of CTRL-ALT-DEL fame) had the office across the hall from mine and discussed a lot of the goings on for what would become the 5150. TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 19 22:55:38 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 20:55:38 -0700 Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8563dba0-2dd6-dfa1-3d6a-a6a495d47e32@sydex.com> On 04/19/2018 07:56 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > As to why IBM entered the PC market, the rumor was (at least at the time > within IBM) was that T.J. Watson, Jr. was at an employee?s house and saw > an Apple II. He said that he wanted to have IBM branded computers in IBM > employees homes. That was how the IBM PC project was kicked off. But it wasn't clear at all what IBM intended the PC for. Cassette tape, TV interface and anything but state-of-the-art design The best part of the 5150 IMOHO, was the keyboard. By the time one got through equipping the 5150 with floppy drives, as display and memory, it ran into a pretty good pile of money. It was also clear that IBM didn't have any idea of how to sell it. I remember going to the regional IBM sales office (was that on Arques? It's been too lnng), purchase order in hand, wanting to pick up 10 of the 5150s. Nobody really know what we were asking for--finally, someone showed up and told us that the lead time would be 12 weeks ARO. We went down to Computerland and bought out their stock that evening. I recall the scuttlebutt that went on before the official 5150 product announcement. IBM had just announced its 68K-based lab computer. There were those who were hoping for a 68K PC, but I figured that there was no way that IBM would jeopardize their CS9000 sales. But there were certainly other 8086-based PCs out before the 5150--some quite a bit more evolved. I recall that Bill Morrow sold his Z80-based business package (MD2, printer and monitor) bundled with software for about 1/2 or less than the price of a minimally disk-capable 5150 with monitor. My general impression is that IBM made the 5150 product, without the faintest idea of how they were going to sell it. --Chuck From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Apr 19 17:27:01 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 18:27:01 -0400 Subject: Andromeda SCDC Qbus controller question Message-ID: <7ce628c0-98a2-7a29-4197-6942e98b4a64@comcast.net> I just got one of these and wanted to configure it via the 10 pin RS232 port on the board. Is the port a standard DLV11-J type? I have one of those D-bit DLV11-J to DB25 adapters but not getting any response. Any info on the few jumpers on the board? Doug From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Apr 20 00:08:39 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 22:08:39 -0700 Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: <8563dba0-2dd6-dfa1-3d6a-a6a495d47e32@sydex.com> References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> <8563dba0-2dd6-dfa1-3d6a-a6a495d47e32@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 19, 2018, at 8:55 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/19/2018 07:56 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> As to why IBM entered the PC market, the rumor was (at least at the time >> within IBM) was that T.J. Watson, Jr. was at an employee?s house and saw >> an Apple II. He said that he wanted to have IBM branded computers in IBM >> employees homes. That was how the IBM PC project was kicked off. > > But it wasn't clear at all what IBM intended the PC for. Cassette tape, > TV interface and anything but state-of-the-art design > > The best part of the 5150 IMOHO, was the keyboard. It was a variant of the keyboard that was used on the System/23. The basic keyboard technology was used in a lot of IBM keyboards at the time. [snip] > > My general impression is that IBM made the 5150 product, without the > faintest idea of how they were going to sell it. > It was IBM?s answer to the Apple II and various S-100 systems so it was stripped down for a ?low? entry price and/or added with other stuff. It was designed to be easy to interface to so that others could make peripherals. It was really following the model of what other ?home? computers at the time were doing. It was also a bit of an experiment and in that respect you?re correct. They didn?t know what it would be used for nor how to sell it as it was *so* far outside of the normal IBM product lines. TTFN - Guy From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Apr 20 05:41:32 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 10:41:32 +0000 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: If you need to contact the person representing me his cell phone number is 360 348 5922 again he will be at the banks house at 8 a.m. His name is Charles Osborne On Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 8:39 AM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Apr 16, 2018, at 8:05 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >> On 04/16/2018 10:54 AM, Alan Perry wrote: > >> There are a few cross conversations going on here and in separate > e-mail and maybe some confusion. > >> > >> On Friday, I am going to meet Pete to pick up the Suns and do some prep > for later coming back to get the Alphas and the keypunch. I may also pick > up Alphas, depending on my judgment on Fri whether I can transport them > safely. > >> > >> There will be a second trip to pick up the keypunch and Alphas not > picked up in the first trip. It is going to take at least two people to > move and load the keypunch. I plan on using the first trip to evaluate > whether two will be enough. Also, Pete says that stuff needs to be moved to > access the Alphas and the keypunch. I intend to do some of that on the > first trip. > > > > Might be interesting to know what stuff has to be moved. :-) > > Yeah, I was wondering about whether any of the stuff that needs to be > moved is of interest. > > >> > >> One complication is that the guy helping with the second trip is also > intended in the Alphas. > > I intended to write ?interested? here. Thanks, autocorrect! > > > > > No big deal. If you have a taker for the Alphas out there at least they > > don't end up > > in the skip. > > We can discuss this offline. > > > > >> > >> As far as getting one or more Alpha to Wellsboro ... it would be a race > car team transporting the machine. I would make arrangements at the race in > Portland this coming weekend, drop the equipment off with them at the next > race in WA state and the equipment would be at the race after that in > Wellsboro. But, at this time, I have not yet identified a team that would > do it. They would want specifics on the Alphas that I don?t yet have. > > > > I can't wait to hear where the racetrack is ion Wellsboro cause I sure > > can't see one > > on Google Maps. Ours (Hamlin Speedway) is rather obvious in satellite > > view. :-) > > We don?t race on tracks. It is called ?stage rally?, the US version of the > World Rally Championship. They race against the clock on closed, gravel > roads. The cars are street-legal and, to get from one timed section to the > next, they drive on open, public roads, obeying the rules of the road. On > the timed sections, someone sits in the passenger seat calling out a > detailed description of the next turns coming up to the driver. When I > competed, I was one of those guys reading directions. > > The Wellsboro rally is called STPR (Susquehannock Trail Performance Rally). > > alan > > > > > bill > > > > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Apr 20 05:23:25 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 11:23:25 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: <8563dba0-2dd6-dfa1-3d6a-a6a495d47e32@sydex.com> References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> Message-ID: <01QRK98FO2RI000XZQ@beyondthepale.ie> > > I remember > going to the regional IBM sales office (was that on Arques? It's been > too lnng), purchase order in hand, wanting to pick up 10 of the 5150s. > Nobody really know what we were asking for--finally, someone showed up > and told us that the lead time would be 12 weeks ARO. We went down to > Computerland and bought out their stock that evening. > That reminds me of when I phoned IBM here in Ireland looking for software support for their VM mainframe operating system not too many years later, sometime in the early 1990s. I spelled out every variation of the name I could think of but they kept asking me what version of OS/2 I had. I guess by then the circle had turned again. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From harten at injectstar.de Fri Apr 20 06:03:59 2018 From: harten at injectstar.de (Harten) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 12:03:59 +0100 Subject: Manual wanted for the MFE M-700 Floppy-Disk-Drive Message-ID: <6dfaabeb56.harten@injectstar.de> Hi to all! I'm looking for a technical manual/schematic for the Mayflower MFE M-700 8 inch Floppy-Disk-Drive. Regards Rolf From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Apr 20 08:24:49 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 13:24:49 +0000 Subject: RL Drive Terminators Message-ID: I see some company selling them on eBay for $122.? Are they really worth anything like that?? I have a couple sitting around here somewhere that I don't expect to ever use again.? Just wondering if they are worth looking for to sell.? In this hobby you can always use money for new (well, old actually) toys. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 20 08:30:00 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 09:30:00 -0400 Subject: RL Drive Terminators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The standard answer is "they are worth what a buyer will pay for them". An asking price isn't a value -- it may just be wishful thinking, or delusion. It does seem like something that could be built for a lot less money. paul > On Apr 20, 2018, at 9:24 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > I see some company selling them on eBay for $122. Are they really worth > > anything like that? I have a couple sitting around here somewhere that I > > don't expect to ever use again. Just wondering if they are worth looking > > for to sell. In this hobby you can always use money for new (well, old > actually) > > toys. > > > bill > > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 08:41:22 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 14:41:22 +0100 Subject: RL Drive Terminators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I see some company selling them on eBay for $122. Are they really worth >anything like that? I have a couple sitting around here somewhere that I Your best indication is to look at 'sold, completed'* listings which will show you what people are actually willing to pay rather than what a seller thinks the item is worth. (*assuming there ARE any for RL terminators of course) A -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk On 20 April 2018 at 14:24, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > I see some company selling them on eBay for $122. Are they really worth > > anything like that? I have a couple sitting around here somewhere that I > > don't expect to ever use again. Just wondering if they are worth looking > > for to sell. In this hobby you can always use money for new (well, old > actually) > > toys. > > > bill > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 09:07:05 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 10:07:05 -0400 Subject: RL Drive Terminators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I see some company selling them on eBay for $122. Are they really worth > anything like that? I would hope they sell for less, but if they can get buyers then that's the current price. It's not like there's an abundant source of NOS or anyone making them now. > I have a couple sitting around here somewhere that I > don't expect to ever use again. Just wondering if they are worth looking > for to sell. You can always list them and see if you get buyers. For me, for over $100, I'm inclined to make some new ones - I have a box of cable ends from a departed friend who used to make and repair DEC cables. I don't happen to have a reel of the right cable (12-pair plus drain, IIRC) and it's not cheap to buy (multiple dollars per foot, IIRC) so I'm not likely to turn the ends back into whole cables. I don't know where to get the right resistor pack from, but Vince Slyngstad has this project which would likely work quite well... http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/RL0x/terminator/ -ethan From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Apr 20 09:31:24 2018 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 15:31:24 +0100 Subject: RL Drive Terminators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <877ep22blv.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > I see some company selling them on eBay for $122. Are they really worth > > anything like that? I have a couple sitting around here somewhere that I > > don't expect to ever use again. Just wondering if they are worth looking > > for to sell. In this hobby you can always use money for new (well, old > actually) > > toys. > > > bill It's a bit disappointing to see them priced so highly. I don't think I've seen one even listed in the UK. So if you are trying to sell them I don't see why $100 or so wouldn't sell, at least eventually. I believe a company in the UK gave me a price of around ?70 ex VAT. I didn't want to that much so I ended up building my own out of 2x40 perfboard, two pin 1x20 headers and a bunch of 82ohm resistors. http://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/pics/IMG_1249.JPG Aaron From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Apr 20 09:39:59 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:39:59 -0700 Subject: To be scrapped in as little as 2 months In-Reply-To: References: <162ca6843fa-17a1-22b4b@webjas-vaa235.srv.aolmail.net> <9d9ebe40-6682-6e25-0fd4-8f0650f72b6a@snowmoose.com> <785455ff-b9d7-d39b-fdaa-46ff35aafb11@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <4D5129A3-2568-4226-B6B2-D4BA6902C251@snowmoose.com> OK, thanks. It took less time than Google Map said it would; I am at the house now (taking a nap). alan > On Apr 20, 2018, at 3:41 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > If you need to contact the person representing me his cell phone number is 360 348 5922 again he will be at the banks house at 8 a.m. His name is Charles Osborne > >> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 8:39 AM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> > On Apr 16, 2018, at 8:05 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> On 04/16/2018 10:54 AM, Alan Perry wrote: >> >> There are a few cross conversations going on here and in separate e-mail and maybe some confusion. >> >> >> >> On Friday, I am going to meet Pete to pick up the Suns and do some prep for later coming back to get the Alphas and the keypunch. I may also pick up Alphas, depending on my judgment on Fri whether I can transport them safely. >> >> >> >> There will be a second trip to pick up the keypunch and Alphas not picked up in the first trip. It is going to take at least two people to move and load the keypunch. I plan on using the first trip to evaluate whether two will be enough. Also, Pete says that stuff needs to be moved to access the Alphas and the keypunch. I intend to do some of that on the first trip. >> > >> > Might be interesting to know what stuff has to be moved. :-) >> >> Yeah, I was wondering about whether any of the stuff that needs to be moved is of interest. >> >> >> >> >> One complication is that the guy helping with the second trip is also intended in the Alphas. >> >> I intended to write ?interested? here. Thanks, autocorrect! >> >> > >> > No big deal. If you have a taker for the Alphas out there at least they >> > don't end up >> > in the skip. >> >> We can discuss this offline. >> >> > >> >> >> >> As far as getting one or more Alpha to Wellsboro ... it would be a race car team transporting the machine. I would make arrangements at the race in Portland this coming weekend, drop the equipment off with them at the next race in WA state and the equipment would be at the race after that in Wellsboro. But, at this time, I have not yet identified a team that would do it. They would want specifics on the Alphas that I don?t yet have. >> > >> > I can't wait to hear where the racetrack is ion Wellsboro cause I sure >> > can't see one >> > on Google Maps. Ours (Hamlin Speedway) is rather obvious in satellite >> > view. :-) >> >> We don?t race on tracks. It is called ?stage rally?, the US version of the World Rally Championship. They race against the clock on closed, gravel roads. The cars are street-legal and, to get from one timed section to the next, they drive on open, public roads, obeying the rules of the road. On the timed sections, someone sits in the passenger seat calling out a detailed description of the next turns coming up to the driver. When I competed, I was one of those guys reading directions. >> >> The Wellsboro rally is called STPR (Susquehannock Trail Performance Rally). >> >> alan >> >> > >> > bill >> > >> >> From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 20 10:16:56 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 11:16:56 -0400 Subject: RL Drive Terminators In-Reply-To: <877ep22blv.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <877ep22blv.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <7127771A-7E98-4A8E-A220-4E001CCD288A@comcast.net> > On Apr 20, 2018, at 10:31 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > >> > > It's a bit disappointing to see them priced so highly. I don't think > I've seen one even listed in the UK. So if you are trying to sell them I > don't see why $100 or so wouldn't sell, at least eventually. I believe a > company in the UK gave me a price of around ?70 ex VAT. I didn't want to > that much so I ended up building my own out of 2x40 perfboard, two pin > 1x20 headers and a bunch of 82ohm resistors. > > http://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/pics/IMG_1249.JPG Nicely done. Clearly this is easy enough. The parts cost can't be more than a few dollars; the priciest thing is likely to be the connector. paul From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Apr 20 10:19:59 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 09:19:59 -0600 Subject: RL Drive Terminators In-Reply-To: <7127771A-7E98-4A8E-A220-4E001CCD288A@comcast.net> References: <877ep22blv.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <7127771A-7E98-4A8E-A220-4E001CCD288A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Apr 20, 2018, at 10:31 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> > > > > It's a bit disappointing to see them priced so highly. I don't think > > I've seen one even listed in the UK. So if you are trying to sell them I > > don't see why $100 or so wouldn't sell, at least eventually. I believe a > > company in the UK gave me a price of around ?70 ex VAT. I didn't want to > > that much so I ended up building my own out of 2x40 perfboard, two pin > > 1x20 headers and a bunch of 82ohm resistors. > > > > http://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/pics/IMG_1249.JPG > > Nicely done. > > Clearly this is easy enough. The parts cost can't be more than a few > dollars; the priciest thing is likely to be the connector. > 90% of the price/premium you'll see in the vintage market is for 'knowing which parts to bodge together'. The parts themselves are rarely rare enough to command the price. Warner From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Apr 20 10:45:15 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 17:45:15 +0200 Subject: Multics Lives Message-ID: <20180420154515.GA10607@tau1.ceti.pl> Howdy, It seems to go unmentioned here, so here you are. One guy have set up a public Multics site. Access via ssh: # ~$ ssh dps8 at m.trnsz.com # The authenticity of host 'm.trnsz.com (139.162.119.37)' can't be # established. # ECDSA key fingerprint is # e7:f6:da:31:eb:a0:a5:0b:50:fc:91:96:32:e7:18:f2. # Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? yes # Warning: Permanently added 'm.trnsz.com,139.162.119.37' (ECDSA) to the # list of k # nown hosts. # Connection from: AAA.BBB.CCC.DDD # Session starting now, Fri 20 Apr 2018 at 15:34:42 UTC. # # BAN.AI Systems Public Access Multics Service # # ? ? ??? ? ? # ?? ?? ? ? ? ????? ??? ??? ??? # ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? # ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???? # ? ? ????? ??? ??? ?????????? ????? # # Visit https://ban.ai/multics/ to request a full user account # Guest print job output at https://ban.ai/spool/anonymous # Public anonymous login available. Type "enter Guest" to login # # # Multics MR12.6f: BAN AI Systems (Channel a.h001) # Load = 10.0 out of 300.0 units: users = 10, 04/20/18 1034.7 est Fri # enter Guest # You are protected from preemption until 10:35. # Anonymous user Guest.Guest logged in 04/20/18 1035.0 est Fri from # ASCII termin # \cal "none". # New messages in message_of_the_day: # # Welcome to the BAN AI Systems Public Access Multics Service! ... and so on, and so on ... (the '# ' comes from me, to make screen dump stand out from my own words) I have none prior experience with Multics, so it is going to be interesting. I guess. Source: AN.AI's Public Access Multics System https://lobste.rs/s/4ktahz/ban_ai_s_public_access_multics_system https://ban.ai/multics/ -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Apr 20 10:45:02 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 15:45:02 +0000 Subject: RL Drive Terminators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1524239103642.5287@w2hx.com> I just bought one for about $28. That seemed reasonable to me. Enough to not bother to build it. 73 Eugene W2HX ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Friday, April 20, 2018 9:24 AM To: Classic Computer Mailing List Subject: RL Drive Terminators I see some company selling them on eBay for $122. Are they really worth anything like that? I have a couple sitting around here somewhere that I don't expect to ever use again. Just wondering if they are worth looking for to sell. In this hobby you can always use money for new (well, old actually) toys. bill From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 11:10:44 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 09:10:44 -0700 Subject: Multics Lives In-Reply-To: <20180420154515.GA10607@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20180420154515.GA10607@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 8:45 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I have none prior experience with Multics, so it is going to be > interesting. I guess. > > Source: > > AN.AI's Public Access Multics System > > https://lobste.rs/s/4ktahz/ban_ai_s_public_access_multics_system > > https://ban.ai/multics/ > > Multics guides, FAQs, tips: http://swenson.org/multics_wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 20 11:13:21 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 09:13:21 -0700 Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: <01QRK98FO2RI000XZQ@beyondthepale.ie> References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> <01QRK98FO2RI000XZQ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <81c384f9-8b78-ada7-81c8-f408852b9754@sydex.com> On 04/20/2018 03:23 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > That reminds me of when I phoned IBM here in Ireland looking for software > support for their VM mainframe operating system not too many years later, > sometime in the early 1990s. I spelled out every variation of the name > I could think of but they kept asking me what version of OS/2 I had. > I guess by then the circle had turned again. Around 1983-4, we were looking for a smallish minicomputer to share the workload of our VAX 11/750. So we were considering alternatives. Since the 750 was running BSD, we definitely wanted another Unix box. I saw a product announcement for the AT&T 3B5 mini and it looked like something that might fit the bill. So, I wanted to find out about pricing and where we could benchmark one. AT&T had just gone through its breakup/"consent decree", so I placed a call to AT&T Sales and asked about the 3B5. I was transfered several times to various sales types who didn't have the faintest idea of what I was talking about, even after I read them the product announcement. It was an hour of being transfered from department to department, with absolutely no satisfaction. We eventually gave up--if AT&T was going to be this difficult just to *sell* us a system, what kind of nightmare was *support* likely to be? The only computer anyone knew anything about was the PC 6300. I told them that I could drop by the Sears Computer Store (remember those?) on El Camino and take one home this evening if that's what I wanted. In the end, they offered to send us some literature--you guessed it--that described the 6300. --Chuck From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Apr 20 11:41:51 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 18:41:51 +0200 Subject: Multics Lives In-Reply-To: References: <20180420154515.GA10607@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20180420164151.GB10607@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 09:10:44AM -0700, Charles Anthony wrote: > Multics guides, FAQs, tips: > http://swenson.org/multics_wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page > > -- Charles Ooooh nice to know, thank you. I am in a process of learning help system on Multics and trying to pipe full help on some subject via something akin to the /usr/bin/less, because typing "y" to display every following four or six lines quickly gets boring. Since even MSDOS had MORE command, I hope to be able to find something. Either this or... all right, I can type r in help prompt and get everything dumped on terminal. Cool. I must admit, help system on VMS was about the nicest one I have ever used. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 11:45:21 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 09:45:21 -0700 Subject: Multics Lives In-Reply-To: <20180420164151.GB10607@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20180420154515.GA10607@tau1.ceti.pl> <20180420164151.GB10607@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 9:41 AM, Tomasz Rola wrote: > On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 09:10:44AM -0700, Charles Anthony wrote: > > Multics guides, FAQs, tips: > > http://swenson.org/multics_wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page > > > > -- Charles > > Ooooh nice to know, thank you. I am in a process of learning help > system on Multics and trying to pipe full help on some subject via > something akin to the /usr/bin/less, because typing "y" to > display every following four or six lines quickly gets boring. Since > even MSDOS had MORE command, I hope to be able to find something. > > Either this or... all right, I can type r in help prompt and get > everything dumped on terminal. Cool. I must admit, help system on VMS > was about the nicest one I have ever used. > > I have good memories of VMS help. The "lh" command works like "man -k". The thing I miss most in the Multics help is the complete lack of "see also" contents -- lists of related commands/functions. -- Charles From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Apr 20 12:10:03 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 11:10:03 -0600 Subject: Multics Lives In-Reply-To: <20180420154515.GA10607@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20180420154515.GA10607@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <786b1677-35ec-b709-d604-222b2e445198@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 04/20/2018 09:45 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > Howdy, Hi, > It seems to go unmentioned here, so here you are. One guy have set up > a public Multics site. Oh, *SHINY*!!! Multics has been on my list to play with when I find enough round tuits. }:-) Thank you for sharing. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 20 13:43:07 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 11:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: <01QRK98FO2RI000XZQ@beyondthepale.ie> References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> <01QRK98FO2RI000XZQ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Apr 2018, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > That reminds me of when I phoned IBM here in Ireland looking for software > support for their VM mainframe operating system not too many years later, > sometime in the early 1990s. I spelled out every variation of the name > I could think of but they kept asking me what version of OS/2 I had. > I guess by then the circle had turned again. Did they think that you were saying "P M"? "PM" ("Presentation Manager") was the OS/2 equivalent of "Windows" Tell them that you mean 'V' as in "Venus" :-) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 14:33:14 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 14:33:14 -0500 Subject: sugar packjets anyone ever come across em? Message-ID: anyone ever come across sugar packets? this came in a lot of manuals and documents that arived the other day kinda neat https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x512q90/922/T4MCLS.jpg From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 20 14:47:16 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 12:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sugar packjets anyone ever come across em? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Apr 2018, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > anyone ever come across sugar packets? this came in a lot of manuals and > documents that arived the other day kinda neat > https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x512q90/922/T4MCLS.jpg "sugar packets"?? Are you talking about a packet of Silica Gel (used as a dessicant)? Silica gel is non-toxic, although large quantity could be dehydrating, but the blue/pink moisture indicator (cobalt chloride) is considered carcinogenic. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 20 15:03:01 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 16:03:01 -0400 Subject: sugar packjets anyone ever come across em? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8DB17369-0E24-4AEA-8BE0-F07A0E45B4BA@comcast.net> > On Apr 20, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > anyone ever come across sugar packets? this came in a lot of manuals and > documents that arived the other day kinda neat > https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x512q90/922/T4MCLS.jpg I haven't seen that particular one. Sugar packets are common in Holland, and often come printed with company logos for use as promotional items (or for use in the company cafeteria). Some people collect them, in the way others collect stamps. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Apr 20 15:53:41 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 14:53:41 -0600 Subject: sugar packjets anyone ever come across em? In-Reply-To: <8DB17369-0E24-4AEA-8BE0-F07A0E45B4BA@comcast.net> References: <8DB17369-0E24-4AEA-8BE0-F07A0E45B4BA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <37749dbe-cdff-476f-c101-f1caaef3000e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 04/20/2018 02:03 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Sugar packets are common in Holland, and often come printed with company > logos for use as promotional items (or for use in the company cafeteria). Are they actually sugar to put in coffee? I'm used to desiccant packets, a.k.a. silica gel coming in everything here in the U.S.A. Decidedly NOT sugar. But sometimes mistakenly considered to be sugar. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 16:00:16 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 16:00:16 -0500 Subject: sugar packjets anyone ever come across em? In-Reply-To: <37749dbe-cdff-476f-c101-f1caaef3000e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <8DB17369-0E24-4AEA-8BE0-F07A0E45B4BA@comcast.net> <37749dbe-cdff-476f-c101-f1caaef3000e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: from the factory complex in holland From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 20 16:00:43 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 17:00:43 -0400 Subject: sugar packjets anyone ever come across em? In-Reply-To: <37749dbe-cdff-476f-c101-f1caaef3000e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <8DB17369-0E24-4AEA-8BE0-F07A0E45B4BA@comcast.net> <37749dbe-cdff-476f-c101-f1caaef3000e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 20, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/20/2018 02:03 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Sugar packets are common in Holland, and often come printed with company logos for use as promotional items (or for use in the company cafeteria). > > Are they actually sugar to put in coffee? Yes. I found a website for collectors: https://www.suikerzak.nl/index.php/zoeken-op-alles -- enter "Electrologica" in the text box and click on "Zoeken" (search) and it will show you 10 entries, including the one Adrian showed. paul From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Apr 20 17:35:07 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 23:35:07 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Int 13h buffer 64k boundaries In-Reply-To: References: <14462b5f-7bc2-fd92-6dbf-58bb34f25c4d@gmail.com> <06d9f9ef-8da8-f5c8-f4f0-cd4d805d9041@sydex.com> <01QRK98FO2RI000XZQ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01QRKYQMQ9ZY000XZQ@beyondthepale.ie> > > > That reminds me of when I phoned IBM here in Ireland looking for software > > support for their VM mainframe operating system not too many years later, > > sometime in the early 1990s. I spelled out every variation of the name > > I could think of but they kept asking me what version of OS/2 I had. > > I guess by then the circle had turned again. > > Did they think that you were saying "P M"? > "PM" ("Presentation Manager") was the OS/2 equivalent of "Windows" > > Tell them that you mean 'V' as in "Venus" :-) > Well, I called out terms such as Virtual Machine / Conversational (Cambridge?) Monitor System / System Product / High Performance Option and got back the over the telephone equivelant of blank looks and questions about whether the hardware involved was a PS/2 (it was an Amdahl 5870 but we had an IBM software support contract). I must have managed to get the message through eventually though because some time after I left that job, my former boss told me that IBM got back to them with a workaround for the issue I reported. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Fri Apr 20 18:21:49 2018 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 16:21:49 -0700 Subject: Andromeda SCDC Qbus controller question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ADA760D.4020002@flying-disk.com> Douglas Taylor wrote: > I just got one of these and wanted to configure it via the 10 > pin RS232 port on the board. > Is the port a standard DLV11-J type? Yes, it is identical. I was the original beta tester on the SCDC and used it extensively. In fact, the designers called it "the Frisbie port". :-) > I have one of those D-bit DLV11-J to DB25 adapters but not > getting any response. You may need a null modem. Try swapping pins 2 and 3. I can send you an genuine Andromeda DB25 adapter if you give me a mailing address and promise to send me $10. :-) > Any info on the few jumpers on the board? They changed between the original Rev. A and final Rev. F boards. Which one do you have? I can send you a copy of the manual, complete with all my editorial comments written on it. Alan "Packrat" Frisbie From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 18:40:27 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 16:40:27 -0700 Subject: Andromeda SCDC Qbus controller question In-Reply-To: <5ADA760D.4020002@flying-disk.com> References: <5ADA760D.4020002@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > > I can send you a copy of the manual, complete with all my > editorial comments written on it. Do you also happen to have a manual for the Andromeda ESDC ESDI disk controller? I have an ESDC controller, was never able to find a manual for it. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 20 19:03:13 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 00:03:13 +0000 Subject: sugar packjets anyone ever come across em? In-Reply-To: References: <8DB17369-0E24-4AEA-8BE0-F07A0E45B4BA@comcast.net> <37749dbe-cdff-476f-c101-f1caaef3000e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>, Message-ID: I much prefer people to collect these instead of keys from keyboards. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Friday, April 20, 2018 2:00:43 PM To: Grant Taylor; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: sugar packjets anyone ever come across em? > On Apr 20, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/20/2018 02:03 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Sugar packets are common in Holland, and often come printed with company logos for use as promotional items (or for use in the company cafeteria). > > Are they actually sugar to put in coffee? Yes. I found a website for collectors: https://www.suikerzak.nl/index.php/zoeken-op-alles -- enter "Electrologica" in the text box and click on "Zoeken" (search) and it will show you 10 entries, including the one Adrian showed. paul From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Apr 20 22:21:22 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 03:21:22 +0000 Subject: Digilog DLM III? Message-ID: <08fd24156e8b4e0e8d9467688023e2c9@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Hi friends. Looking for a user manual (or anything) for this data line monitor. Here is a picture: http://w2hx.com/x/Digilog/Digilog-DLM-III.jpg Thanks From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 23:07:08 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 00:07:08 -0400 Subject: Digilog DLM III? In-Reply-To: <08fd24156e8b4e0e8d9467688023e2c9@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <08fd24156e8b4e0e8d9467688023e2c9@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 11:21 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hi friends. Looking for a user manual (or anything) for this data line monitor. Here is a picture: > > http://w2hx.com/x/Digilog/Digilog-DLM-III.jpg I have one of those (rescued from Software Results Corp. 25 years ago). And astoundingly, the Operator Manual was stored right on top. About 60 single-sided pages. It's not an original manual. It's already a Xerox copy but it appears to be in fair shape, not too much copy fade. I can see about scanning it this week. I didn't see a copy of the manual online anywhere, but I did find several mentions in Computerworld, like this one from 11 Oct 1982 announcing a price cut on the DLM III from $3775 to $2995. https://books.google.com/books?id=LW9X-GFY68sC&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64 -ethan From ed at groenenberg.net Fri Apr 20 15:18:58 2018 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 22:18:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: sugar packjets anyone ever come across em? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41470.10.10.10.2.1524255538.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Fri, April 20, 2018 21:33, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > anyone ever come across sugar packets? this came in a lot of manuals and > documents that arived the other day kinda neat > https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x512q90/922/T4MCLS.jpg > Wow, that's an oldie. Sugar sachets (suikerzakjes) were pretty common in Europe in the '60 and '70-ties. Indeed they were collected, every cafe, restaurant or company did have them and usually had their own printing on them. Later on they got more or less replaced with packed sugar cubes and nowadays in sticks with plain, boring sticks. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. From wrm at dW.co.za Sat Apr 21 00:48:52 2018 From: wrm at dW.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 07:48:52 +0200 Subject: TRS-80 bits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20180421074655.05b90c20@nicadae.dw.co.za> Hi Jim and all >Hmm, I guess it does indeed depend on shipping costs, but I am looking >for a card cage for the 12, and they can be a bit tough to find. Yea, we tend to use couriers but it runs to a few hundred dollars a pop. I will send pics off-list sometime next week. W From dave at 661.org Sat Apr 21 11:12:33 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:12:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: USB Panda Display for klh10 help Message-ID: I couple years ago I completed the design for my USB Panda Display[1] board. This is a modernization of the original Panda Display once distributed by Spare Time Gizmos[2]. Both devices are intended to be connected to a more-or-less modern x86-class computer running the klh-10 pdp10 emulator and provide useful blinkenlights. The development of klh10 is once again active, this time on Github[3]. I created my own repo of klh10 as a means of writing support for my new Panda Display. The display seems to be recognized and used, but what it displays is meaningless. I cannot fully test it until I can get the old test program compiled and working. Once that's done, I'll add my changes to the PDP-10/klh10 repo and delete my own. Here's a video of a computer with the old Panda Display running klh10: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_LcQ5apODg. The creator of that video, Jan de Rie, got the program that was used to generate that pattern from Mark Crispin, the creator of the Panda distribution of klh10. That program appears at the end of this post. I'm looking for someone who knows TOPS10 / TOPS20 well enough to figure out for me why this test program won't compile. Once that's done, I can complete the firmware for the USB Panda Display an its support within klh10. I'll then make more copies of the USB Panda Display board (and maybe overlays) for whoever wants them. TITLE HACK SEARCH MONSYM HACK: SKIPA 4,[^D4] HACK0: SOJL 4,TRAILL SETZB 1,3 HACK1: TLNE 1,777777 JRST HACK0 MOVE 2,1 CIRC 2,-^D18 SKIPN 4 SKIPA 1,3 IOR 1,3 LITES% HALT HRRZ 2,1 MOVEI 1,30 DISMS% MOVE 1,2 AOJA 1,HACK1 TRAILL: SETZ 1, TRALL0: LITES% HALT MOVE 2,1 MOVEI 1,30 DISMS% JUMPL 2,TRAILR LSHC 1,^D37 AOJA 1,TRALL0 TRAILR: MOVSI 1,400000 TRALR0: LITES% HALT MOVE 2,1 MOVEI 1,30 DISMS% MOVE 1,2 TRNE 1,1 JRST HACK ASH 1,-1 JRST TRALR0 END HACK [1] https://github.com/DavidGriffith/panda-display [2] http://sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Panda.htm) [3] https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/ -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lyndon at orthanc.ca Sat Apr 21 16:59:20 2018 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 14:59:20 -0700 Subject: Multics Lives In-Reply-To: <20180420154515.GA10607@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20180420154515.GA10607@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: > On Apr 20, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > > It seems to go unmentioned here, so here you are. One guy have set up > a public Multics site. More than one ;-) $ ssh multics at orthanc.ca HSLA Port (d.h000,d.h001,d.h002,d.h003,d.h004,d.h005,d.h006,d.h007,d.h008,d.h009,d.h010,d.h011,d.h012,d.h013,d.h014,d.h015,d.h016,d.h017,d.h018,d.h019,d.h020,d.h021,d.h022,d.h023,d.h024,d.h025,d.h026,d.h027,d.h028,d.h029)? Attached to line d.h000 Multics MR12.6f: Frobozz Magic Abacus Co. (Channel d.h000) Load = 5.0 out of 90.0 units: users = 5, 04/21/18 1356.4 pst Sat That gets you a guest login to play with. There are no plans right now for individual accounts. I'm also working on setting up a public MTS host ... From bygg at cafax.se Sun Apr 22 10:35:51 2018 From: bygg at cafax.se (Johnny Eriksson) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 10:35:51 WET DST Subject: USB Panda Display for klh10 help In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:12:33 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: David Griffith wrote: > I'm looking for someone who knows TOPS10 / TOPS20 well enough to figure > out for me why this test program won't compile. Once that's done, I can > complete the firmware for the USB Panda Display an its support within > klh10. I'll then make more copies of the USB Panda Display board (and > maybe overlays) for whoever wants them. A couple of observations on the following code: 1/ It is written for, and uses TOPS20 syscalls. If you intend to run this under TOPS10 change the syscalls (LITES% and DISMS%) to the equvialent TOPS10 counterparts, can be done by including these lines: SEARCH UUOSYM OPDEF LITES% [LIGHTS] OPDEF DISMS% [HIBER] 2/ The program uses the CIRC instruction, which is not present in stock DEC processors, and possibly not known to MACRO-10. You could try OPDEF CIRC [247000,,0] if that is indeed the problem. [source code trimmed down] > David Griffith --Johnny From lars at nocrew.org Sun Apr 22 03:54:27 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 08:54:27 +0000 Subject: USB Panda Display for klh10 help In-Reply-To: (Johnny Eriksson via cctalk's message of "Sun, 22 Apr 2018 10:35:51 WET DST") References: Message-ID: <7wlgdfvcxo.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Johnny Eriksson wrote: > 2/ The program uses the CIRC instruction, which is not present in stock > DEC processors, and possibly not known to MACRO-10. Curious. I think only the MIT ITS machines had CIRC. But I vaguely recall Crispon adding it to KLH10. I have only ever seen it used in one application (apart from this one). From cctalk at ibmjunkman.com Sun Apr 22 11:21:48 2018 From: cctalk at ibmjunkman.com (cctalk) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:21:48 -0700 Subject: Amusing IBM test system model Message-ID: I also have a few others listed: ADINTS https://www.ebay.com/itm/132588526929 IBM 1401/707 https://www.ebay.com/itm/132581434367 IBM System/3 https://www.ebay.com/itm/132593475814 Yet to be listed is a 650 and 2 suitcases of System/360 Model 70 models used in the 1964 Worlds Fair. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 06:34:29 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 07:34:29 -0400 Subject: Digilog DLM III? In-Reply-To: References: <08fd24156e8b4e0e8d9467688023e2c9@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: I've got one as well, not sure if it's the same revision or not. Mine may have come with a manual, I thought it had been folded up inside the front cover but I just checked and it's not -- the lot of equipment it came with included many Rubbermaid tubs full of documentation, so it's possibly somewhere in there. Thanks, Jonathan On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 12:07 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 11:21 PM, W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > Hi friends. Looking for a user manual (or anything) for this data line > monitor. Here is a picture: > > > > http://w2hx.com/x/Digilog/Digilog-DLM-III.jpg > > I have one of those (rescued from Software Results Corp. 25 years > ago). And astoundingly, the Operator Manual was stored right on top. > About 60 single-sided pages. It's not an original manual. It's > already a Xerox copy but it appears to be in fair shape, not too much > copy fade. I can see about scanning it this week. > > I didn't see a copy of the manual online anywhere, but I did find > several mentions in Computerworld, like this one from 11 Oct 1982 > announcing a price cut on the DLM III from $3775 to $2995. > > https://books.google.com/books?id=LW9X-GFY68sC&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64 > > -ethan > From david at thecoolbears.org Mon Apr 23 09:47:57 2018 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 07:47:57 -0700 Subject: VME Bus Message-ID: I hope this qualifies as classic computing... Does anyone have the pin-out for the P2 connector on MVME processor boards? I think that the pin-out would be the same for MVME147, MVME177, MVME162, etc. and would mate with the P2 adapter board. From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 15:07:47 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 15:07:47 -0500 Subject: Amusing IBM test system model In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5ade3d16.1c69fb81.c9676.2bab@mx.google.com> Wow. Pretty awesome museum gear. It'll be interesting to see how the bids go and if a museum bids like several in the past. -------- Original message --------From: cctalk via cctalk Date: 4/22/18 11:21 AM (GMT-06:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Amusing IBM test system model I also have a few others listed: ADINTS https://www.ebay.com/itm/132588526929 IBM 1401/707 https://www.ebay.com/itm/132581434367 IBM System/3 https://www.ebay.com/itm/132593475814 Yet to be listed is a 650 and 2 suitcases of System/360 Model 70 models used in the 1964 Worlds Fair. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Apr 23 15:27:54 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 16:27:54 -0400 Subject: Amusing IBM test system model In-Reply-To: <5ade3d16.1c69fb81.c9676.2bab@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <162f430ff13-c8c-136c7@webjas-vae119.srv.aolmail.net> WOW!? ? neat indeed... we have? a complete?Honeywell?computer room? system? in mini? form and so a cdc? system.... These? do not? come up? often? for? sale. Ed# www.smecc.org? ? In a message dated 4/23/2018 1:07:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Wow. Pretty awesome museum gear. It'll be interesting to see how the bids go and if a museum bids like several in the past. -------- Original message --------From: cctalk via cctalk Date: 4/22/18 11:21 AM (GMT-06:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Amusing IBM test system model I also have a few others listed: ADINTS https://www.ebay.com/itm/132588526929 IBM 1401/707 https://www.ebay.com/itm/132581434367 IBM System/3 https://www.ebay.com/itm/132593475814 Yet to be listed is a 650 and 2 suitcases of System/360 Model 70 models used in the 1964 Worlds Fair. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 23 17:00:56 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 15:00:56 -0700 Subject: ISO Sun (Fuji Electrochemical) 300-1024 power supply Message-ID: <98383402-004c-5602-7d78-582f0eb3d385@bitsavers.org> I have a x/280 server chassis that has a power supply that's acting up (DC shuts down after a few seconds) Anyone have one they can spare? Sun PN 300-1024 http://www.shrubbery.net/~heas/sun-feh-2_1/Systems/Sun4/DCPOWER_Fuji_1024_850W.html or has anyone seen this problem before (caps in the DC monitor circuit?) From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 17:43:17 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 15:43:17 -0700 Subject: ISO Sun (Fuji Electrochemical) 300-1024 power supply In-Reply-To: <98383402-004c-5602-7d78-582f0eb3d385@bitsavers.org> References: <98383402-004c-5602-7d78-582f0eb3d385@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I have a x/280 server chassis that has a power supply that's acting up (DC shuts down > after a few seconds) > > Anyone have one they can spare? Sun PN 300-1024 > http://www.shrubbery.net/~heas/sun-feh-2_1/Systems/Sun4/DCPOWER_Fuji_1024_850W.html > > or has anyone seen this problem before (caps in the DC monitor circuit?) I have a 300-1024 that came out of a 4/260 or 4/280. Unfortunately it is missing some of its magic smoke and was swapped for a spare. I never got around to opening it up to see if the failure was obvious and if it could easily be repaired. I no longer have any other Sun gear so I have no use for this one if it would be worth the cost of shipping for either spare parts or to try to repair it. From rp at servium.ch Mon Apr 23 17:58:29 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 00:58:29 +0200 Subject: VME Bus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Depends on the exact processor board you have... MVME147/162/177 all use the same MVME712 transition board. The manuals are on bitsavers and contain the pinouts. But it's mostly academic as you can't just build your own "simple" adapter. Some of the signals are multiplexed and need to be decoded. MVME712 boards are easy to find and cheap, the corresponding P2 adapter boards (and the cables to connect the P2 adapter board to the MVME712) seem to be a bit rare ;( On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 4:47 PM, David Coolbear via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I hope this qualifies as classic computing... > > Does anyone have the pin-out for the P2 connector on MVME processor boards? > I think that the pin-out would be the same for MVME147, MVME177, MVME162, > etc. and would mate with the P2 adapter board. > From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Apr 23 19:54:16 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 00:54:16 +0000 Subject: Digilog DLM III? In-Reply-To: References: <08fd24156e8b4e0e8d9467688023e2c9@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <6dc62e35f42d426ca389dbdfcdaa6ea6@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Small world! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of systems_glitch via cctalk Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 7:34 AM To: Ethan Dicks; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Digilog DLM III? I've got one as well, not sure if it's the same revision or not. Mine may have come with a manual, I thought it had been folded up inside the front cover but I just checked and it's not -- the lot of equipment it came with included many Rubbermaid tubs full of documentation, so it's possibly somewhere in there. Thanks, Jonathan On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 12:07 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 11:21 PM, W2HX via cctalk > > wrote: > > Hi friends. Looking for a user manual (or anything) for this data > > line > monitor. Here is a picture: > > > > http://w2hx.com/x/Digilog/Digilog-DLM-III.jpg > > I have one of those (rescued from Software Results Corp. 25 years > ago). And astoundingly, the Operator Manual was stored right on top. > About 60 single-sided pages. It's not an original manual. It's > already a Xerox copy but it appears to be in fair shape, not too much > copy fade. I can see about scanning it this week. > > I didn't see a copy of the manual online anywhere, but I did find > several mentions in Computerworld, like this one from 11 Oct 1982 > announcing a price cut on the DLM III from $3775 to $2995. > > https://books.google.com/books?id=LW9X-GFY68sC&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64 > > -ethan > From donald at donaldwhittemore.com Mon Apr 23 15:40:45 2018 From: donald at donaldwhittemore.com (Donald) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 13:40:45 -0700 Subject: Amusing IBM test system model Message-ID: <37ABD9B4-6540-44FB-8701-26D0C4D1DEA2@donaldwhittemore.com> Well, the ones listed now have been re-listed at least once. :-( I was just contacted by the Living Computers Museum. They emphasized they are a 501(c)(3) org. :-) I donate to the CHM. I will probably give them first shot. From turing at shaw.ca Mon Apr 23 19:24:16 2018 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 18:24:16 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Cybernex APL-100 terminal Message-ID: <722278167.185114529.1524529456185.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Does anyone in the group have access to documentation for the Cybernex APL-100 video terminal? All that I've been able to locate is a 4 page brochure for it; they were originally made in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Any help would be greatly appreciated. From lyndon at orthanc.ca Mon Apr 23 19:57:48 2018 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cybernex APL-100 terminal In-Reply-To: <722278167.185114529.1524529456185.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <722278167.185114529.1524529456185.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Apr 2018, Norman Jaffe via cctech wrote: > Does anyone in the group have access to documentation for the Cybernex APL-100 video terminal? > All that I've been able to locate is a 4 page brochure for it; they were originally made in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. > Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have vague memories of using one of those back in my Athabasca U days. Let me ping a couple of people and see if there are remnants. --lyndon From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Apr 24 00:27:03 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 01:27:03 -0400 Subject: Amusing IBM test system model In-Reply-To: <37ABD9B4-6540-44FB-8701-26D0C4D1DEA2@donaldwhittemore.com> References: <37ABD9B4-6540-44FB-8701-26D0C4D1DEA2@donaldwhittemore.com> Message-ID: <162f61e991c-c91-4820@webjas-vaa247.srv.aolmail.net> Grin! We are cursed with a smaller building than thet have so the models work for us and we Buy them! package price? contact me off list....... for some reason can not send direct to you... Ed# www.smecc.org Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Monday, April 23, 2018 Donald via cctalk wrote: Well, the ones listed now have been re-listed at least once. :-( I was just contacted by the Living Computers Museum. They emphasized they are a 501(c)(3) org. :-) I donate to the CHM. I will probably give them first shot. From lars at nocrew.org Tue Apr 24 01:07:40 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 06:07:40 +0000 Subject: MDL is running in ITS Message-ID: <7wefj5t9w3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Hello, People have been earching for PDP-10 MDL for a long time. Finally, we found source code for TOPS-20 including slightly bit-rotted ITS support. It has now been fixed and is up and running in ITS. Twenex people are welcome to give it a go too. This is published with permission from Chris Reeve and Tim Anderson: http://github.com/PDP-10/muddle Next is, of course, trying to run Zork. How to do that is an entire research project of its own. Best regards, Lars Brinkhoff From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 16:38:03 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 16:38:03 -0500 Subject: GDB front-end for SimH Message-ID: Has anyone made a GDB front-end for SimH? Just curious. Seems like it could be an interesting way to tie an IDE to SimH, if one were inclined. Thanks, Kyle From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Apr 24 18:33:36 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 16:33:36 -0700 Subject: Picked up stuff from Pete's Message-ID: For those follow the rescue of equipment from Pete Lancashire's place outside of Portland ... I went out there last Friday. Pete was unavailable, so a friend of his let me and showed me where to avoid stepping. The amount of stuff there was impressive/amazing/overwhelming. Aside from the test equipment and old telecom equipment that was pointed out when I was shown around, it was hard to focus on one thing because I would immediately see something else interesting that grabbed my attention. I picked up seven Sun SPARC systems and three Compaq-branded Alpha systems. The Alpha systems all went to a local (Seattle) person who is talking to Bill Gunshannon about possibly getting one out to him. One of the Alphas was a DS20 deskside and I never figured out what the other two were. They were narrower and longer than the DS20. There were also some loose 72G Ultra3 SCSI HDDs. The Suns were a SS1, SS2, two SS5s (one with a Netra top cover), two SS20s (one with its cover removed and MBus card and memory lying near it) and a SS1+ "prototype". I am keeping the SS1+ and a SS5. I have found a home for a couple more of them and will be looking for a home for the rest. The SS20s are the most problematic. As you would expect from a system with its top cover missing, one of the SS20s does not display any diagnostic output or get to the OBP prompt after being powered on. The "good" one displays a "replace motherboard" message while going through its diagnostics. Also, as you might expect, the one called a prototype was the most interesting to me. I am a long-time Sun employee and, while I wasn't around when the SS1+ was developed, I know people who were. It isn't like any prototype that they knew of. Still trying to figure out exactly what it is. The top cover is metal and slides over the chassis (not plastic and pivots into place like a SS1+. There are no external markings on it. It has a Sun SS1+ motherboard, Sun0424 HDDs, and uses SS1/SS1+/SS2 HDD carriers, but has a Sony (not Sun) labeled power supply. As far as the 029 keypunch, it is still there. There was some confusion and the people who were supposed to come get it didn't. I have described to them where it is and how I would go about removing it. alan From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 24 18:43:01 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 19:43:01 -0400 Subject: GDB front-end for SimH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <706731B1-7648-4501-9901-FC65B146042A@comcast.net> On Apr 24, 2018, at 5:38 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > Has anyone made a GDB front-end for SimH? Just curious. Seems like it could > be an interesting way to tie an IDE to SimH, if one were inclined. > > Thanks, > > Kyle I haven't seen one. But it would certainly make sense to tie in a GDB remote protocol server, hooked to the breakpoint facility of the SIMH emulation for machines that have one. One drawback is that there aren't all that many SIMH architectures that have GDB support. VAX does, and Alpha; that's about it. I don't know how hard it is to do a basic platform in GDB, probably not all that difficult. At least for machines like PDP-11. One's complement might be harder (PDP-1), never mind things like the IBM 1620... :-) paul From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Apr 24 19:14:00 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 01:14:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: GDB front-end for SimH In-Reply-To: <706731B1-7648-4501-9901-FC65B146042A@comcast.net> References: <706731B1-7648-4501-9901-FC65B146042A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2018, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > One drawback is that there aren't all that many SIMH architectures that > have GDB support. VAX does, and Alpha; that's about it. I don't know > how hard it is to do a basic platform in GDB, probably not all that > difficult. At least for machines like PDP-11. One's complement might > be harder (PDP-1), never mind things like the IBM 1620... :-) You need target BFD and libopcodes support for a GDB port to be possible. There is such support already present for PDP-11, so wiring in GDB parts should be straightforward. A remote protocol stub for SimH should also be easy to write as you don't need all the fancy stuff and GDB will be happy to work with just the `?', `G', `M', `c', `g', `m' request packets and the `S' stop reply packet implemented. The rest is optional. HTH, Maciej From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 24 20:10:22 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 21:10:22 -0400 Subject: GDB front-end for SimH In-Reply-To: References: <706731B1-7648-4501-9901-FC65B146042A@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 24, 2018, at 8:14 PM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2018, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> One drawback is that there aren't all that many SIMH architectures that >> have GDB support. VAX does, and Alpha; that's about it. I don't know >> how hard it is to do a basic platform in GDB, probably not all that >> difficult. At least for machines like PDP-11. One's complement might >> be harder (PDP-1), never mind things like the IBM 1620... :-) > > You need target BFD and libopcodes support for a GDB port to be possible. > There is such support already present for PDP-11, so wiring in GDB parts > should be straightforward. A remote protocol stub for SimH should also be > easy to write as you don't need all the fancy stuff and GDB will be happy > to work with just the `?', `G', `M', `c', `g', `m' request packets and the > `S' stop reply packet implemented. The rest is optional. True. But if the SIMH code has breakpoint support, GDB can use that as a "hardware breakpoint". Not all that interesting, perhaps, unless you're putting breakpoints in ROM. More interesting is watchpoint support, which some SIMH targets have, and GDB supports. I haven't tried to do a minimal BFD/opcodes implementation for a platform that doesn't yet have one. PDP-10 perhaps (unless Lars did one years ago?). One wonders if non-power-of-two wordlengths add complication, as they do in recent GCC. I don't know if the SIMH execution and control frameworks make it convenient to hook up the GDB remote stub protocol. A stop to the SIMH console would want to be turned into a GDB remote interaction instead, and break signals from GDB would have to be recognized while SIMH is running the emulated machine. paul From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 08:33:20 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:33:20 +0200 Subject: More retro than you might think: the LCD Message-ID: Science The tech you're reading these words on ? you have two Dundee uni boffins to thank for that Spear and LeComber stumbled on the thin-film-transistor liquid-crystal display 40 years ago By Alistair Dabbs 25 Apr 2018 at 09:15 https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/04/25/dundee_hidden_home_of_tft/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Apr 25 09:32:10 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 07:32:10 -0700 Subject: Picked up stuff from Pete's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am glad they got rescued. On the Alpha stuff, I will over the next month, put all the Tru64 and OpenVMS CD sets, documentation and hardware licenses into on pile. I would like to find a destination that will / can redistribute the CD's etc. I don't want to them and the licenses get put into the hands of one individual and never to be seen again. Suggestions ? -pete On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 4:33 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > For those follow the rescue of equipment from Pete Lancashire's place > outside of Portland ... > > I went out there last Friday. Pete was unavailable, so a friend of his let > me and showed me where to avoid stepping. > > The amount of stuff there was impressive/amazing/overwhelming. Aside from > the test equipment and old telecom equipment that was pointed out when I > was shown around, it was hard to focus on one thing because I would > immediately see something else interesting that grabbed my attention. > > I picked up seven Sun SPARC systems and three Compaq-branded Alpha systems. > > The Alpha systems all went to a local (Seattle) person who is talking to > Bill Gunshannon about possibly getting one out to him. One of the Alphas > was a DS20 deskside and I never figured out what the other two were. They > were narrower and longer than the DS20. There were also some loose 72G > Ultra3 SCSI HDDs. > > The Suns were a SS1, SS2, two SS5s (one with a Netra top cover), two SS20s > (one with its cover removed and MBus card and memory lying near it) and a > SS1+ "prototype". I am keeping the SS1+ and a SS5. I have found a home for > a couple more of them and will be looking for a home for the rest. > > The SS20s are the most problematic. As you would expect from a system with > its top cover missing, one of the SS20s does not display any diagnostic > output or get to the OBP prompt after being powered on. The "good" one > displays a "replace motherboard" message while going through its > diagnostics. > > Also, as you might expect, the one called a prototype was the most > interesting to me. I am a long-time Sun employee and, while I wasn't around > when the SS1+ was developed, I know people who were. It isn't like any > prototype that they knew of. Still trying to figure out exactly what it is. > The top cover is metal and slides over the chassis (not plastic and pivots > into place like a SS1+. There are no external markings on it. It has a Sun > SS1+ motherboard, Sun0424 HDDs, and uses SS1/SS1+/SS2 HDD carriers, but has > a Sony (not Sun) labeled power supply. > > As far as the 029 keypunch, it is still there. There was some confusion > and the people who were supposed to come get it didn't. I have described to > them where it is and how I would go about removing it. > > alan > > > From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Apr 25 09:34:22 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 07:34:22 -0700 Subject: Picked up stuff from Pete's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Almost forgot. In another location are 5 to 6 DEC disk arrays, most filled with 14 disks. 3 went with one of the DSs, thats why the dual SCSI cards. There are at least 20-40 loose disks from 36 to 300 GB. Some never used, boxes of SCSI cables etc. It will just take time. -pete On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > I am glad they got rescued. > > On the Alpha stuff, I will over the next month, put all the Tru64 and > OpenVMS CD sets, documentation and hardware licenses into on pile. > > I would like to find a destination that will / can redistribute the CD's > etc. I don't want to them and the licenses get > put into the hands of one individual and never to be seen again. > > Suggestions ? > > -pete > > On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 4:33 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> For those follow the rescue of equipment from Pete Lancashire's place >> outside of Portland ... >> >> I went out there last Friday. Pete was unavailable, so a friend of his >> let me and showed me where to avoid stepping. >> >> The amount of stuff there was impressive/amazing/overwhelming. Aside >> from the test equipment and old telecom equipment that was pointed out when >> I was shown around, it was hard to focus on one thing because I would >> immediately see something else interesting that grabbed my attention. >> >> I picked up seven Sun SPARC systems and three Compaq-branded Alpha >> systems. >> >> The Alpha systems all went to a local (Seattle) person who is talking to >> Bill Gunshannon about possibly getting one out to him. One of the Alphas >> was a DS20 deskside and I never figured out what the other two were. They >> were narrower and longer than the DS20. There were also some loose 72G >> Ultra3 SCSI HDDs. >> >> The Suns were a SS1, SS2, two SS5s (one with a Netra top cover), two >> SS20s (one with its cover removed and MBus card and memory lying near it) >> and a SS1+ "prototype". I am keeping the SS1+ and a SS5. I have found a >> home for a couple more of them and will be looking for a home for the rest. >> >> The SS20s are the most problematic. As you would expect from a system >> with its top cover missing, one of the SS20s does not display any >> diagnostic output or get to the OBP prompt after being powered on. The >> "good" one displays a "replace motherboard" message while going through its >> diagnostics. >> >> Also, as you might expect, the one called a prototype was the most >> interesting to me. I am a long-time Sun employee and, while I wasn't around >> when the SS1+ was developed, I know people who were. It isn't like any >> prototype that they knew of. Still trying to figure out exactly what it is. >> The top cover is metal and slides over the chassis (not plastic and pivots >> into place like a SS1+. There are no external markings on it. It has a Sun >> SS1+ motherboard, Sun0424 HDDs, and uses SS1/SS1+/SS2 HDD carriers, but has >> a Sony (not Sun) labeled power supply. >> >> As far as the 029 keypunch, it is still there. There was some confusion >> and the people who were supposed to come get it didn't. I have described to >> them where it is and how I would go about removing it. >> >> alan >> >> >> > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 12:27:17 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 12:27:17 -0500 Subject: anyone in winnipeg looking for a 11 Message-ID: i know of pdp 11 thats going to get lost to a building demolition in winnipeg if i was in the city i would jump up and down to grab it it my self ive got most of the paper tapes for it and the drawings i managed to rescue a while back.. theres a office on the otherside of the floor just about other side of the wall from the 11 that has more manuals and documents possibly 8" floppy disk software in said room (more like a closet 8x8 room there some vandle damage to the front of the 11 was painted with some spray paint and the spectrimanalizer its atached to was smashed also theres also a room with the big built in desk for a control room dating back to the 60's 70's been striped of some stuff if anyonres looking for that sorta stuff From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 14:34:10 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:34:10 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers References: Message-ID: I'm in the process of clearing out some old documentation, specifically GI in this case. I thought the most obvious place to look to see if it had already been scanned would be http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ To my surprise there doesn't seem to be a GI section there at all; however, some Googling found these two links: http://ftpmirror.your.org/pub/misc/bitsavers/pdf/gi/ and http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/gi/ which do have some docs, albeit a little older than mine (apparently both those URLs link to the same files). What am I missing? Why don't they show up at bitsavers.org/pdf? m From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 25 14:38:16 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:38:16 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bitsavers was reorganized by subject area. The categories are software, computing, communications, components, and test equipment. The "pdf" subtree is for "computing". You can find GI at http://www.bitsavers.org/components/gi/ . paul > On Apr 25, 2018, at 3:34 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > I'm in the process of clearing out some old documentation, specifically GI in this case. > > I thought the most obvious place to look to see if it had already been scanned would be > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ > > To my surprise there doesn't seem to be a GI section there at all; however, some Googling found these two links: > http://ftpmirror.your.org/pub/misc/bitsavers/pdf/gi/ > and > http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/gi/ > > which do have some docs, albeit a little older than mine (apparently both those URLs link to the same files). > > What am I missing? Why don't they show up at bitsavers.org/pdf? > > m From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 25 14:45:15 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:45:15 -0400 Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer Message-ID: Gentlepeople, I have a Philips logic analyzer (PM3585) which is about 20 years old at this point. It seems to be basically functional except for the keyboard, which unfortunately is a critical part. This is one of those molded rubber type, with a circuit board behind the rubber that has contact areas made of carbon film (at least they are black in color) and on the back of each key a small cylindrical bump also coated with carbon. Some of the buttons work but most don't seem to even if I press hard. I've disassembled the keyboard, which was easy enough. Inspection shows no damage and no signs of corrosion or contamination. I wiped everything with isopropyl alcohol anyway. The result is no change in behavior. Any suggestions for what to do next? paul From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 14:51:49 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 16:51:49 -0300 Subject: Blog in portuguese - are updates allowed/wanted? Message-ID: Dear friends I have a blog in portuguese where I write my adventures in repairing and maintaining old computers. Today's post is: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com/2018/04/msx-yamaha-yis303yis503-e-seus-irmaos.html Should I post updates to my blog here? Are these wanted/allowed? I believe yes to both Thanks Alexandre (and don't forget to click on the ads and share around :) ) (and check often the blog, there are tons of great info :D) (and google translate is your friend!) (and the groove is in the heart :D ) From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 25 14:59:57 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:59:57 -0500 Subject: Blog in portuguese - are updates allowed/wanted? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d3dccf$fcc75820$f6560860$@classiccmp.org> Definitely OK by me, does anyone object? Also don't forget www.tabalabs.com.br as well :) J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2018 2:52 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Blog in portuguese - are updates allowed/wanted? Dear friends I have a blog in portuguese where I write my adventures in repairing and maintaining old computers. Today's post is: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com/2018/04/msx-yamaha-yis303yis503-e-seus-irmaos.html Should I post updates to my blog here? Are these wanted/allowed? I believe yes to both Thanks Alexandre (and don't forget to click on the ads and share around :) ) (and check often the blog, there are tons of great info :D) (and google translate is your friend!) (and the groove is in the heart :D ) From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 16:03:29 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:03:29 -0300 Subject: Blog in portuguese - are updates allowed/wanted? In-Reply-To: <000001d3dccf$fcc75820$f6560860$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d3dccf$fcc75820$f6560860$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Oh Jay, www.tabalabs.com.br is passing thru a massive update which is delayed due to the loss of jobs in my area. I'm working triple hours to get 1/3 of the pay. (so, PLEASE, click on the ads! :D) But I'm still trying to port all the items on my blog to my site and rewamp it. Anyway, thanks for your help :) And of course, I'm always open to donations of equipment (can be sent to Brazil or my USA shipito) and coins (to my paypal account) to keep the machine running. I believe the kind of repairs and mods I do are a bit out of topic on this list (which is focused in way older and more obscure computers), but I hope my writtings may be of any help to all of you :) BTW, I'm always open to suggestions, of what you all want to see in my pages :o) Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza www.tabalabs.com.br www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com 2018-04-25 16:59 GMT-03:00 Jay West : > Definitely OK by me, does anyone object? > > Also don't forget www.tabalabs.com.br as well :) > > J > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > Alexandre Souza via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2018 2:52 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Blog in portuguese - are updates allowed/wanted? > > Dear friends > I have a blog in portuguese where I write my adventures in repairing and > maintaining old computers. Today's post is: > http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com/2018/04/msx-yamaha- > yis303yis503-e-seus-irmaos.html > > Should I post updates to my blog here? Are these wanted/allowed? I believe > yes to both > > Thanks > Alexandre > > (and don't forget to click on the ads and share around :) ) (and check > often the blog, there are tons of great info :D) (and google translate is > your friend!) (and the groove is in the heart :D ) > > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Apr 25 16:16:33 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 22:16:33 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01QRRUZRVEEY000OOC@beyondthepale.ie> > > I have a Philips logic analyzer (PM3585) which is about 20 years old at this point. It seems to be basically functional except for the keyboard, which unfortunately is a critical part. > > This is one of those molded rubber type, with a circuit board behind the rubber that has contact areas made of carbon film (at least they are black in color) and on the back of each key a small cylindrical bump also coated with carbon. Some of the buttons work but most don't seem to even if I press hard. > > I've disassembled the keyboard, which was easy enough. Inspection shows no damage and no signs of corrosion or contamination. I wiped everything with isopropyl alcohol anyway. The result is no change in behavior. > > Any suggestions for what to do next? > I had a similar problem with an old VCR remote control. The problem seemed to be that the bumps on the back of the keys lost their conductivity (and cleaning them made them worse). My solution was to glue pieces of aluminium foil to the back of the keys. It was tedious but it seemed to sort it out. Regards, Peter Coghlan. paul From brain at jbrain.com Wed Apr 25 23:29:39 2018 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:29:39 -0500 Subject: Anyone fancy lending out a Replica I for a few weeks? Message-ID: I would like to ensure my PS2Encoder project works on the Apple I, but I have no unit to test with. Alternatively, anyone out there with access to an Apple I/Replica I/functional equivalent who can test and reprogram an Atmel ATMEGA88 or ATMEGA168? Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Apr 26 04:17:18 2018 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 19:17:18 +1000 Subject: Visiting Boston - Classic computer recommendations Message-ID: <03BF3B4D-D99B-4AB3-B9A2-476291E44EB2@kerberos.davies.net.au> I?m in Boston MA (technically Canton) for the next three weeks (April 29 to May 19). Looking for recommendations on classic computer/classic car/sailing things of interest to do on the weekends. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 07:47:29 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:47:29 +0000 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP Message-ID: A lengthy interview with the later great Rick Dickinson, product designer of basically every Sinclair computer, who sadly died of cancer on Tuesday. https://medium.com/@ghalfacree/an-interview-with-rick-dickinson-3fea60537338 He not only did the ZX 80, ZX 81, ZX Spectrum and the QL, but also the Z88, the Spectrum Next and others -- along with a lot of other stuff. I know this is a rather USA-centric list, so probably most of you started off with things like the Apple II, the first sub-$1000 home computer. But in Britain and Europe back then, we were a lot poorer, and $1000 was an impossibly large amount of money -- many months of pay in a good job. I think in my early home-computer days, I never saw a single Apple II -- they were exotic, expensive foreign machines. I have only seen them in recent years, as collectible antiques. In the UK, the revolution was the first sub-?100 home computer, the ZX 81. I first used a Commodore PET. Later, a few of my richer friends had Commodore 64s. The super-wealthy might have a BBC Micro. In either case, a working setup with mass storage -- floppy drives -- was nearing ?1000. Nobody owned a _monitor_ -- they were exotica for professionals. Whereas a Spectrum with a Microdrive was a quarter of that and a highly usable system, with tens of thousands of games, plus mutiple programming languages, word processors, databases and more. I think if you ask virtually any British person in their late 30s, 40s or 50s, in anything connected with IT, what their first computer was, the answer would be a ZX 81 or a ZX Spectrum. It was the single range of machines that drove the entire computer revolution over here, and also in the form of a myriad clones in the Communist Bloc. Later, imitators came along -- the Oric (6502) and Dragon (6809) ranges, for instance. And of course there were many machines that aspired to be better: Memotech. Camputers Lynx, Elan Enterprise, etc. All flopped to some degree. The only thing that displaced Sinclair was Amstrad, who made more expensive computers but with much better specifications -- an integrated tape drive, or floppies, even a printer, and a real monitor. They cost more but still less than Commodore or Acorn: you got a lot for your money. Amstrad eventually bought Sinclair's models and name, and later still, it launched the first _cheap_ PC clones and kick-started the IBM-compatible industry over here. But it did it standing on Sinclair's shoulders. Part of the joy of Sinclair machines (like Apple and Commodore) was their very distinctive look -- black, slablike, with tiny discrete bits of colour, unlike the grey or beige boxes of virtually all the competition. And that was down to Rick Dickinson, who only discovered years later how he had inspired whole generations of people. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 08:38:54 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:38:54 -0300 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to add some info to the excellent Liam's post, it was a revolution in south america too. The first computers in Brazil were ZX80 clones (TK82C is a ZX80 clone, not a ZX81...ZX81 were cloned just in the TK85 computer) and it was a revolution! I was a very poor guy, my father was a Militar Police soldier and he was able to afford (in 24 installments) a TK85 for me. It was the only affordable computer for the poor for YEARS. Another interesting thing is that the exterior designs of sinclair computers were never completely copied in Brazil. TK82C had a case inspired (but not directly cloned) from ZX80. TK83 was a complete innovative design. TK85 was a clone of the externals of the ZX spectrum (being a ZX81 clone) BUT had vents on top and the entire enclosure is taller. TK90X uses mostly the same enclosure of the TK85 with the vents on diagonal, and TK95 cloned the commodore Plus4 enclosure. 2018-04-26 9:47 GMT-03:00 Liam Proven via cctalk : > A lengthy interview with the later great Rick Dickinson, product designer > of basically every Sinclair computer, who sadly died of cancer on Tuesday. > > https://medium.com/@ghalfacree/an-interview-with- > rick-dickinson-3fea60537338 > > He not only did the ZX 80, ZX 81, ZX Spectrum and the QL, but also the Z88, > the Spectrum Next and others -- along with a lot of other stuff. > > I know this is a rather USA-centric list, so probably most of you started > off with things like the Apple II, the first sub-$1000 home computer. But > in Britain and Europe back then, we were a lot poorer, and $1000 was an > impossibly large amount of money -- many months of pay in a good job. > > I think in my early home-computer days, I never saw a single Apple II -- > they were exotic, expensive foreign machines. I have only seen them in > recent years, as collectible antiques. > > In the UK, the revolution was the first sub-?100 home computer, the ZX 81. > > I first used a Commodore PET. Later, a few of my richer friends had > Commodore 64s. The super-wealthy might have a BBC Micro. In either case, a > working setup with mass storage -- floppy drives -- was nearing ?1000. > Nobody owned a _monitor_ -- they were exotica for professionals. > > Whereas a Spectrum with a Microdrive was a quarter of that and a highly > usable system, with tens of thousands of games, plus mutiple programming > languages, word processors, databases and more. > > I think if you ask virtually any British person in their late 30s, 40s or > 50s, in anything connected with IT, what their first computer was, the > answer would be a ZX 81 or a ZX Spectrum. It was the single range of > machines that drove the entire computer revolution over here, and also in > the form of a myriad clones in the Communist Bloc. > > Later, imitators came along -- the Oric (6502) and Dragon (6809) ranges, > for instance. And of course there were many machines that aspired to be > better: Memotech. Camputers Lynx, Elan Enterprise, etc. All flopped to some > degree. > > The only thing that displaced Sinclair was Amstrad, who made more expensive > computers but with much better specifications -- an integrated tape drive, > or floppies, even a printer, and a real monitor. They cost more but still > less than Commodore or Acorn: you got a lot for your money. Amstrad > eventually bought Sinclair's models and name, and later still, it launched > the first _cheap_ PC clones and kick-started the IBM-compatible industry > over here. But it did it standing on Sinclair's shoulders. > > Part of the joy of Sinclair machines (like Apple and Commodore) was their > very distinctive look -- black, slablike, with tiny discrete bits of > colour, unlike the grey or beige boxes of virtually all the competition. > > And that was down to Rick Dickinson, who only discovered years later how he > had inspired whole generations of people. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Apr 26 09:55:18 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:55:18 -0700 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B255615-A710-492B-8009-DDA76187E5C6@avanthar.com> > On Apr 26, 2018, at 5:47 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > He not only did the ZX 80, ZX 81, ZX Spectrum and the QL, but also the Z88, > the Spectrum Next and others -- along with a lot of other stuff. > > I know this is a rather USA-centric list, so probably most of you started > off with things like the Apple II, the first sub-$1000 home computer. But > in Britain and Europe back then, we were a lot poorer, and $1000 was an > impossibly large amount of money -- many months of pay in a good job. My first computer was supposed to be a ZX81. I worked all Summer painting the house to earn it. As it happens, my payment was a VIC-20 with a tape recorder. The ZX Spectrum has always fascinated me, and nearly 20 years ago, I traded a Tek cartridge with a list member for a ZX Spectrum 2+. I still dream of having time to get that system up and running. Even though I?ve never run it, it?s still one of my favorite pieces in my collection. Zane From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 10:55:28 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:55:28 -0400 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: <0B255615-A710-492B-8009-DDA76187E5C6@avanthar.com> References: <0B255615-A710-492B-8009-DDA76187E5C6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: There was a very large Timex 1000 / ZX81 user base in the US. I have quite a lot of newsletters and documents from these groups. I even did an exhibit on the subject of SIGs for the Timex 1000 ZX81 at VCF MW a few years ago. You can see stacks of newsletters in stands flanking the machines and tapes. http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfmw-ECCC_2010/SinclairSIG/ Personally, the $99 Timex 1000 was the only computer I could have afforded back then. Schools had Apple II's but not so many people in their homes then, at least where I lived. Bill On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:55 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Apr 26, 2018, at 5:47 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > He not only did the ZX 80, ZX 81, ZX Spectrum and the QL, but also the > Z88, > > the Spectrum Next and others -- along with a lot of other stuff. > > > > I know this is a rather USA-centric list, so probably most of you started > > off with things like the Apple II, the first sub-$1000 home computer. But > > in Britain and Europe back then, we were a lot poorer, and $1000 was an > > impossibly large amount of money -- many months of pay in a good job. > > My first computer was supposed to be a ZX81. I worked all Summer painting > the house to earn it. As it happens, my payment was a VIC-20 with a tape > recorder. The ZX Spectrum has always fascinated me, and nearly 20 years > ago, I traded a Tek cartridge with a list member for a ZX Spectrum 2+. I > still dream of having time to get that system up and running. Even though > I?ve never run it, it?s still one of my favorite pieces in my collection. > > Zane > > > > From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 26 11:32:42 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:32:42 -0500 Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer In-Reply-To: <01QRRUZRVEEY000OOC@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01QRRUZRVEEY000OOC@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <0c4c01d3dd7c$33239710$996ac530$@com> Easier solution is to apply some conductive light lube. Radio Shack used to carry it, and I repaired a LOT of remote controls with it! Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2018 4:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer > > I have a Philips logic analyzer (PM3585) which is about 20 years old at this point. It seems to be basically functional except for the keyboard, which unfortunately is a critical part. > > This is one of those molded rubber type, with a circuit board behind the rubber that has contact areas made of carbon film (at least they are black in color) and on the back of each key a small cylindrical bump also coated with carbon. Some of the buttons work but most don't seem to even if I press hard. > > I've disassembled the keyboard, which was easy enough. Inspection shows no damage and no signs of corrosion or contamination. I wiped everything with isopropyl alcohol anyway. The result is no change in behavior. > > Any suggestions for what to do next? > I had a similar problem with an old VCR remote control. The problem seemed to be that the bumps on the back of the keys lost their conductivity (and cleaning them made them worse). My solution was to glue pieces of aluminium foil to the back of the keys. It was tedious but it seemed to sort it out. Regards, Peter Coghlan. paul --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 11:46:35 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 16:46:35 +0000 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: <0B255615-A710-492B-8009-DDA76187E5C6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 at 17:55, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > There was a very large Timex 1000 / ZX81 user base in the US. I have quite > a lot of newsletters and documents from these groups. I even did an exhibit > on the subject of SIGs for the Timex 1000 ZX81 at VCF MW a few years ago. > You can see stacks of newsletters in stands flanking the machines and > tapes. > http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfmw-ECCC_2010/SinclairSIG/ > Personally, the $99 Timex 1000 was the only computer I could have afforded > back then. Schools had Apple II's but not so many people in their homes > then, at least where I lived. That's very cool. Thanks for sharing. I knew the TS1000 (and TS1500?) did better in the USA than the TS2068 did, but I didn't realise that they were that popular. I was about 12 when they came out, and I have to confess, lacking colour or sound or graphics, they were of little to no interest to me. It was the later Spectrum that grabbed me. But my uncle's ZX81 was the first computer I ever used that was owned by a private individual. He was probably in his 60s when he got it, and he never learned to operate it. I managed to enter a simple Lunar Lander game from the manual, save it and get it running, which hugely impressed him -- he'd failed repeatedly to get that far. I suppose that was my first entry into the world of computing, in which I still work... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From js at cimmeri.com Thu Apr 26 12:17:16 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:17:16 -0500 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: <0B255615-A710-492B-8009-DDA76187E5C6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <5AE2099C.80707@cimmeri.com> On 4/26/2018 11:46 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> Personally, the $99 Timex 1000 was the only computer I could have afforded >> back then. Schools had Apple II's but not so many people in their homes >> then, at least where I lived. > That's very cool. Thanks for sharing. > > I knew the TS1000 (and TS1500?) did better in the USA than the TS2068 did, > but I didn't realise that they were that popular. > > I was about 12 when they came out, and I have to confess, lacking colour or > sound or graphics, they were of little to no interest to me. It was the > later Spectrum that grabbed me. > > But my uncle's ZX81 was the first computer I ever used that was owned by a > private individual. He was probably in his 60s when he got it, and he never > learned to operate it. I managed to enter a simple Lunar Lander game from > the manual, save it and get it running, which hugely impressed him -- he'd > failed repeatedly to get that far. > > I suppose that was my first entry into the world of computing, in which I > still work... Very interesting to see this perspective from the UK! Located in the U.S. (Washington, D.C), I started with an Apple II+ in 1979 as a 12 year old. Out of curiosity, I later bought the Sinclair ZX-80, but coming from the Apple, I thought the ZX-80 was horrid and not useable. I later also tried the Timex Sinclair 1000.. better.. but still seemed like a waste of time toy. Mind you, I had a monitor, and (2) disk drives on the Apple and had had exposure to HP, DEC, and IBM minicomputers by the age of 16. Always with my nose into my own business, I'd no idea how fortunate I was until reading of others' experiences here. Thanks for sharing. - John From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 12:26:36 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:26:36 +0100 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F8B6DA2-ECDA-4BB7-ABB4-373600C2DFED@gmail.com> > On 26 Apr 2018, at 13:47, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > I think if you ask virtually any British person in their late 30s, 40s or > 50s, in anything connected with IT, what their first computer was, the > answer would be a ZX 81 or a ZX Spectrum. It was the single range of > machines that drove the entire computer revolution over here, and also in > the form of a myriad clones in the Communist Bloc. My first was a ZX80 which my Dad borrowed from my physics teacher at school. That spurred me on to get my own ZX81 which had just come out, then the Research Machines 380Z at later school, then the 48K ZXSpectrum. Amazing little machines for the money but I never discovered the name of the designer until much later. > Later, imitators came along -- the Oric (6502) and Dragon (6809) ranges, > for instance. And of course there were many machines that aspired to be > better: Memotech. Camputers Lynx, Elan Enterprise, etc. All flopped to some > degree. You could?ve stopped after ?flopped? though the Oric went on to do very well in France and the Dragon still has a good userbase today. Strictly speaking they all do apart from the Lynx, but the Dragon is alive and well. The biggest Enterprise group is still in Hungary where the unsold machines were dumped after Enterprise Computers went bust in 1986. > And that was down to Rick Dickinson, who only discovered years later how he > had inspired whole generations of people. Yep. RIP. I missed him doing ?an evening with?? last year at the Computer Museum in Cambridge, naturally I thought there?d be another one. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 12:54:12 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:54:12 -0500 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0248C4C7-0CFE-4B50-BA83-7CE2ED45CEA0@gmail.com> > On Apr 26, 2018, at 7:47 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > I know this is a rather USA-centric list, so probably most of you started > off with things like the Apple II, the first sub-$1000 home computer. But > in Britain and Europe back then, we were a lot poorer, and $1000 was an > impossibly large amount of money -- many months of pay in a good job. > I think you'd find a few people this side of the pond whose first computer was a Timex Sinclair 1000 (our equivalent of the ZX81). I know that was true in our household... My dad purchased one brand-new at Albertson's (a supermarket chain in the southeast US) for $100. We were enamored with it instantly despite its obvious drawbacks and that eventually led to the purchase of a more capable machine, the TI 99/4a. Unfortunately much to my dads chagrin that happening just a few months before its drastic price cut and eventual discontinuation. RIP. Definitely a very influential machine worldwide and an effort worth feeling proud of. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 13:55:43 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:55:43 +0000 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: <5AE2099C.80707@cimmeri.com> References: <0B255615-A710-492B-8009-DDA76187E5C6@avanthar.com> <5AE2099C.80707@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 at 19:17, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Very interesting to see this perspective from the UK! Oh good. :-) > Located in the U.S. (Washington, D.C), I started with an Apple II+ in 1979 as a 12 year old. This confirms the sort of thing I read. US users had specifications of kit we couldn't _dream_ of... big (for the time) high-end machines like the Apple II and Atari 8-bits, with full-size full-travel keyboards, internal expansion slots, monitors, floppy disk drives -- even multiple ones! It took me years, as a teenaged university student, to save up enough to add a disk interface and a single 5.25" DS/DD 80-track drive to my Spectrum. That cost me about ?150, and it gave me a Centronics printer port, so I could add a Panasonic KX-P 1080 9-pin dot matrix printer -- another ?75 or so. I still used a portable TV, though. Monitors remained out of reach and the Spectrum didn't even have a monitor port anyway. Before that I struggled along with ZX Microdrives. I just bought a used one, to try to 3D print replicas of the case, one for an SD card drive, one for a Raspberry Pi... They were crappy things -- 100 kB of not-very-reliable storage on an endless tape loop in a tiny (postage-stamp sized) miniaturised 8-track cassette -- but one drives and the interface were ?80. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Microdrive Stuff like expansion slots, disk controllers as a standard offering, monitor and printer ports -- they were luxuries for rich people with high-end micros. > Out of curiosity, I later bought the Sinclair ZX-80, but coming from the Apple, I thought the > ZX-80 was horrid and not useable. Compared to an Apple II, it probably was, to be fair. > I later also tried the Timex Sinclair 1000.. better.. but still seemed like a waste of time toy. Slightly uprated version of the same machine, basically. I guess the thing to try to imagine is that the ZX81 -- the basis of the TS1000 -- was around a tenth of the price of the Apple II, and entirely usable with a cassette recorder and a portable B&W TV. In a country where people had say a quarter of the buying power of the USA, *that* was an affordable machine. The Apple II wasn't. The differential hasn't entirely gone, but nobody notices it or mentions it now. Most don't know. US petrol gasoline today: $2.80 per gallon. (?2 per 3.78 litres, or ?0.52 per litre) https://gasprices.aaa.com/ UK petrol today: ?1.23 per litre. http://www.petrolprices.com/ We pay 2.5 x more than you for petrol. Much the same applies to many ordinary groceries -- bread, beer, clothing, etc. "Median household income in the U.S. rose to an estimated $59,055 in January 2018" https://seekingalpha.com/article/4152222-january-2018-median-household-income "The Office for National Statistics Salary statistics show and average earning of ?26,500" https://www.icalculator.info/news/UK_average_earnings_2014.html US: ?42,415 versus UK ?26,500 That's why Sinclair did so well. > Mind you, I had a monitor, and (2) disk drives on the Apple and had had exposure to > HP, DEC, and IBM minicomputers by the age of 16. > Always with my nose into my own business, I'd no idea how fortunate I was until reading > of others' experiences here. For comparison, I now live in Czechia. Still in the EU and not one of the poorest. The average cost of living here in the capital is about 1/3 of what it is in London. In the 2nd city, Brno, where I used to live, it was about 1/4 of London. "Wages in Czech Republic increased to 31646 CZK/Month in the fourth quarter of 2017" https://tradingeconomics.com/czech-republic/wages That's a little over ?1,000 per month, ?13,000 a year. Or $1,500 per month, $18,000 a year. The USA has it a *lot* better off than most Americans realise. As my former flatmate put it, when I put an iPad in his hands: "this is the first time I have ever touched an Apple product. Nobody I know has an Apple computer, or ever had." Here in Prague, iPhones are common and I see MacBooks everywhere -- but of course the city is full of tourists. By local standard, Apple kit today is nearly as unaffordably remote as an Apple II was to me in 1982 when I got my ZX Spectrum, second hand for ?80. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 14:00:56 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 19:00:56 +0000 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: <0F8B6DA2-ECDA-4BB7-ABB4-373600C2DFED@gmail.com> References: <0F8B6DA2-ECDA-4BB7-ABB4-373600C2DFED@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 at 19:26, Adrian Graham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > My first was a ZX80 which my Dad borrowed from my physics teacher at school. That spurred me on to get my own ZX81 which had just come out, then the Research Machines 380Z at later school, then the 48K ZXSpectrum. Amazing little machines for the money but I never discovered the name of the designer until much later. Same here! > You could?ve stopped after ?flopped? though the Oric went on to do very well in France and the Dragon still has a good userbase today. Strictly speaking they all do apart from the Lynx, but the Dragon is alive and well. The biggest Enterprise group is still in Hungary where the unsold machines were dumped after Enterprise Computers went bust in 1986. I'm in the Hungarian Enterprise owners group on FB -- machine translation is an amazing thing -- and I still hope to own one. The Oric did relatively well, yes -- better than the Dragon. But neither achieved more than a _fraction_ of the success of the Sinclair range, and as for the others -- Camputers, Memotech, Jupiter, Newbrain, even foreigners such as Mattel, Spectravideo, Sord -- they all put together probably sold fewer than Sinclair. In fact, I suspect that Sinclair and Commodore together outsold every other home micro vendor put together. And there were a _lot_. > Yep. RIP. I missed him doing ?an evening with?? last year at the Computer Museum in Cambridge, naturally I thought there?d be another one. :-( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Apr 26 14:33:37 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:33:37 -0700 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: <0F8B6DA2-ECDA-4BB7-ABB4-373600C2DFED@gmail.com> Message-ID: Over here in the US, I remember seeing the Sinclair QL in a magazine (probably Byte?) and thinking it looked exotic and interesting. I thought the little tape drives looked neat, and didn?t know enough to appreciate how much better a floppy drive would have made the system. I have no regrets at all about getting an Amiga 1000 to take to college, and now I appreciate even better than then just how lucky I was. But to this day, I?d still like to play with a QL and get an idea of what it would have been like to head off to college with a shiny new one of those. There are a few other UK computers which I?m also curious about, since they?re not so common over here in the US. -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 15:37:43 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:37:43 +0000 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: <0F8B6DA2-ECDA-4BB7-ABB4-373600C2DFED@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 at 21:33, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Over here in the US, I remember seeing the Sinclair QL in a magazine (probably Byte?) and thinking it looked exotic and interesting. I thought the little tape drives looked neat, and didn?t know enough to appreciate how much better a floppy drive would have made the system. > I have no regrets at all about getting an Amiga 1000 to take to college, and now I appreciate even better than then just how lucky I was. But to this day, I?d still like to play with a QL and get an idea of what it would have been like to head off to college with a shiny new one of those. There are a few other UK computers which I?m also curious about, since they?re not so common over here in the US. Speaking of Byte, that reminds me -- I've put a bunch of Smalltalk-80 related material on Scribd, including Byte's August 1981 special on Smalltalk. https://www.scribd.com/user/38728867/Liam-Proven The QL was a weird machine. It predated the Mac by a matter of weeks and in crude spec terms was comparable -- 128 kB RAM, 68008 vs 68000, 2 x 100 kB Microdrives versus 1 x 400 kB floppy. The QL did sound and colour, mind. But Sinclair totally failed to spot that the next big thing was the GUI. The QL didn't have one. It was an enhanced 1980s 8-bit -- with limited colour and sound, limited storage and expansion, but a big flat memory space (for the time), multitasking, a ROM BASIC and so on. I tried to evaluate the relative strengths and weaknesses of the QL, the ST and the Amiga here: https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/46833.html The Mac brought the GUI to the masses, albeit in far more limited form than Xerox PARC had intended -- or even than the Lisa. The Amiga added stunning multimedia to that, at a price, although still a fraction of the Mac's. The ST cut the Amiga's amazing abilities down to something more like the Macs, but still offered better-than-any-8-bit graphics and sound, enough for great games. I looked at all of them and bought an Archimedes. :-D FAR more CPU power than any of them, a pretty good GUI, an excellent BASIC programming environment, and better sound and graphics than the ST, near the Amiga's but not quite. It hit the sweet spot for me. It was a _great_ machine, IMHO. But so was the Amiga, and so in its way was the Mac and the ST. The QL... not so much, I'm afraid. But I remain intrigued by them. I am hoping to learn enough Object Pascal that, via Ultibo, I can do a bare-metal QL emulator for the Raspberry Pi. The QL had a very interesting, unique OS, and 2 forks of it are now FOSS. I'd love to bring them to the Pi. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 26 15:41:38 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 16:41:38 -0400 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: <0F8B6DA2-ECDA-4BB7-ABB4-373600C2DFED@gmail.com> Message-ID: <662B6AE58BD04C708E2A35964BBDAE69@teoPC> My first computer was a Timex 2068 just before Timex got out of computers. I had seen advertisements for the 1000 model but it looked like junk at the time (no real keyboard, you needed to have the 16K RAM cart to do anything). Still the 1000 was CHEAP. When I vacationed in Greece for a summer between HS and college in the 80's I remember seeing all the advertisements for the Sinclair models with the wafer drives and thought they were cool looking. I think I even seen a few real models at the airport shops. Still using anything other then a disk drive was a pain and that device seemed too expensive for Europe at that time. Even after I promptly purchased a used C64 from a friend I still looked at the mailing lists for Timex/Sinclair products sold out of NYC shops. They had all kinds of add-ons and some software to make the units workable but most of it was for the 1000 model which must have sold quite a few units before being discontinued compared to my 2068. -----Original Message----- From: Mark J. Blair via cctalk Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 3:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP Over here in the US, I remember seeing the Sinclair QL in a magazine (probably Byte?) and thinking it looked exotic and interesting. I thought the little tape drives looked neat, and didn?t know enough to appreciate how much better a floppy drive would have made the system. I have no regrets at all about getting an Amiga 1000 to take to college, and now I appreciate even better than then just how lucky I was. But to this day, I?d still like to play with a QL and get an idea of what it would have been like to head off to college with a shiny new one of those. There are a few other UK computers which I?m also curious about, since they?re not so common over here in the US. -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 26 16:03:53 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 14:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > A lengthy interview with the later great Rick Dickinson, product designer > of basically every Sinclair computer, who sadly died of cancer on Tuesday. > https://medium.com/@ghalfacree/an-interview-with-rick-dickinson-3fea60537338 > He not only did the ZX 80, ZX 81, ZX Spectrum and the QL, but also the Z88, > the Spectrum Next and others -- along with a lot of other stuff. > > I know this is a rather USA-centric list, so probably most of you started > off with things like the Apple II, the first sub-$1000 home computer. Neither "first", nor "sub-$1000" Apple][ was $1298, and discounts were very rare. TRS-80 at $599 was less than half the price. Pet at $795 was barely more than half the price. Two price factors need to be considered: MSRP V street price entry price (VERY significant for US) V price by the time it was fully equipped. By connecting a CCTV monitor, I got my TRS80 new for $399. "First" of course, involves date of announcement, date of working prototype, date of release (and order acceptance), date of first deliveries, date of first availability without pre-order. Apple, TRS80, PET overlapped on all of those, and should reasonably be considered to be simultaneous. > But in Britain and Europe back then, we were a lot poorer, and $1000 was > an impossibly large amount of money -- many months of pay in a good job. Not all americans are nor were idly wealthy. The day before I bought my TRS80 was a typical 14 hour work day, with rice and beans for dinner. I had to choose between buying not skimping on groceries V a Mini-Cooper-S (needed a little work) V Honda 600 V TRS80. Did I make the right choice? But, exchange rate in those days was about 2:1! You dealt with extreme markups, with many machines selling there for the same number of pounds as their dollar price in USA! ~$500 GBP for TRS80, >1000 GBP for Apple are twice what the MSRP should have been. > In the UK, the revolution was the first sub-?100 home computer, the ZX 81. Timex/Sinclair was $100, in keeping with the same industry specific exchange rate that was gouging y'all. It was amazing how much they accomplished with so little. It had a picture of a keyboard on top, (as a suggested expansion?) I got my assistant ("VP Of Marketing") a Timex. Later, I bought a used Yamaha MSX (from Mitchell Waite) for him. Then he bought a Mindset. Here, also, Sinclair was a popular first computer for people who didn't want to spend a significant part of their income for a computer, (and for kids without wealthy parents) Some Macs have been made into aquariums. PCs can have individual parts upgraded for decades. But, the Sinclair needed no work to be repurposed as an elegant doorstop. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 16:04:54 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:04:54 -0600 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: <0F8B6DA2-ECDA-4BB7-ABB4-373600C2DFED@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The QL was a weird machine. It predated the Mac by a matter of weeks and in > crude spec terms was comparable -- 128 kB RAM, 68008 vs 68000, 2 x 100 kB > Microdrives versus 1 x 400 kB floppy. The QL did sound and colour, mind. > Those Microdrives were such a Cheese design. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 26 16:11:19 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 14:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: <0F8B6DA2-ECDA-4BB7-ABB4-373600C2DFED@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Those Microdrives were such a Cheese design. The American Cheese Society (industry association) would probably resent that comparison. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 16:11:07 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:11:07 +0000 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: <662B6AE58BD04C708E2A35964BBDAE69@teoPC> References: <0F8B6DA2-ECDA-4BB7-ABB4-373600C2DFED@gmail.com> <662B6AE58BD04C708E2A35964BBDAE69@teoPC> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 at 22:41, TeoZ via cctalk wrote: > My first computer was a Timex 2068 just before Timex got out of computers. I > had seen advertisements for the 1000 model but it looked like junk at the > time (no real keyboard, you needed to have the 16K RAM cart to do anything). > Still the 1000 was CHEAP. It was, but very limited. The UK model had 1 kB of RAM, no sound, no graphics, no colour, 32*20 text, and a limited 8 kB ROM BASIC. Expansion at the time was limited to a tiny cash-register-style printer and a 16 kB RAM expansion, and that was it. The Spectrum had 48 kB RAM, a slightly more flexible 16 kB BASIC with graphics and sound commands, 256*192 graphics in 16 colours (kinda), and could drive disk drives, printers, joysticks, modems, whatever you could want. For me, more interested in programming than games, it was better than a C64 -- the 64 was expensive in the UK, its disk drive slow and also expensive, and its BASIC was rubbish. Better keyboard, though, and yes, much better sound and graphics. The big limitation of the Spectrum was the piezo beeper sound and the limited graphics. The TS2068 fixed both: it added a AY-3-8910 sound chip, 2 more screen modes (512*192 and 256*192 with 32*192 colour resolution instead of the Spectrum's 32*22) -- and the ROM could be paged out to run CP/M. It's a tragedy that Sinclar never adopted those enhancements for the Spectrum 128... or that Amstrad didn't merge the Spectrum and CPC lines when it bought the Sinclair product line. > When I vacationed in Greece for a summer between HS and college in the 80's > I remember seeing all the advertisements for the Sinclair models with the > wafer drives and thought they were cool looking. I think I even seen a few > real models at the airport shops. Yep, probably. But I'm told the Spectrum never made a profit for Sinclair Research, whereas the ZX81 was very lucrative for them. > Still using anything other then a disk drive was a pain True. > and that device > seemed too expensive for Europe at that time. Yep. :-( > Even after I promptly purchased a used C64 from a friend I still looked at > the mailing lists for Timex/Sinclair products sold out of NYC shops. They > had all kinds of add-ons and some software to make the units workable but > most of it was for the 1000 model which must have sold quite a few units > before being discontinued compared to my 2068. Apparently so! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 16:11:32 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:11:32 -0600 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 3:03 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Apple][ was $1298, and discounts were very rare. > TRS-80 at $599 was less than half the price. > Pet at $795 was barely more than half the price. > By connecting a CCTV monitor, I got my TRS80 new for $399. > The Apple II at $1298 didn't include a monitor, either, so it was actually closer to $1500 when compared to the $599 TRS-80 or $795 PET. One could argue that the buyer did get significant additional value with the Apple II in some regards, but if you were on a tight budget, the Apple II wasn't the right machine. By the US govt's figures, $1298 back then is equivalent to $5310 today. Even if it was mostly better than the competition, how many of us would be able to buy a $5300 computer today? From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 16:13:36 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:13:36 -0600 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: <0F8B6DA2-ECDA-4BB7-ABB4-373600C2DFED@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > >> Those Microdrives were such a Cheese design. >> > > The American Cheese Society (industry association) would probably resent > that comparison I was referring to a different, non-comestible Cheese. What I stated about the Microdrives was literally true, not a metaphor. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 16:15:51 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:15:51 +0000 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 at 23:04, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Neither "first", nor "sub-$1000" > Apple][ was $1298, and discounts were very rare. > TRS-80 at $599 was less than half the price. > Pet at $795 was barely more than half the price. The TRS-80 line barely sold over here, so I tend to forget them. But perhaps I have incorrectly remembered what the Apple II was marketed as. > Not all americans are nor were idly wealthy. > The day before I bought my TRS80 was a typical 14 hour work day, with rice > and beans for dinner. > I had to choose between buying not skimping on groceries V a Mini-Cooper-S > (needed a little work) V Honda 600 V TRS80. Did I make the right choice? I'd go for a bike over a car any day. Well, when I was young, anyway. Now, I'm getting kinda stiff and creaky... Because of all the bike crashes and the scar tissue. > But, exchange rate in those days was about 2:1! > You dealt with extreme markups, with many machines selling there for the > same number of pounds as their dollar price in USA! > ~$500 GBP for TRS80, >1000 GBP for Apple > are twice what the MSRP should have been. Oh yes. There was a Mac dealer who undercut Apple UK by literally sending an employee to New York, walk on fare, who bought the Mac of your choice at retail, flew back with it, and delivered it to you. Not kidding. > Timex/Sinclair was $100, in keeping with the same industry specific > exchange rate that was gouging y'all. > It was amazing how much they accomplished with so little. Yep. > It had a picture of a keyboard on top, (as a suggested expansion?) Mean! It worked. Not well, but it worked. No worse than an Atari 400 keyboard -- the same design. > I got my assistant ("VP Of Marketing") a Timex. :-) > Later, I bought a used Yamaha MSX (from Mitchell Waite) for him. > Then he bought a Mindset. I never got into MSX. They ended up very impressive by the MSX2+ era. Mindset? > Here, also, Sinclair was a popular first computer for people who didn't > want to spend a significant part of their income for a computer, (and for > kids without wealthy parents) Conceded. > Some Macs have been made into aquariums. > PCs can have individual parts upgraded for decades. > But, the Sinclair needed no work to be repurposed as an elegant doorstop. Harsh, but not new... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 16:25:41 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 16:25:41 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation Message-ID: It is obvious that the TRS-80 line of computers suffered severe fragmentation with differing architectures: TRS-80 Model I, III, and 4(P) are all obviously of a mostly compatible architecture. TRS-80 Model II and 16, 68k based "business" machines TRS-80 CoCo I, II, III (Dragon) TRS-80 PC-x, various rebadged machines from Sharp, Panasonic, or Casio TRS-80 MC-10 (a Matra Alice) TRS-80 Model 100, 102, 200 (rebadged Kyoceras) So, obviously there were several good sellers in there, and of course for every good seller there's at least one bad seller. The PC line were mostly replacements for calculators that were programmable, and the Model 100 derivatives were mostly used as appliances rather than general purpose machines. Aside from that, it seems like Tandy more than most went off in the weeds with their own wide variety of machines instead of settling on a common architecture. Do you think that if they had, say, revised and extended the Model I system to color/80 column that the rest would have been mostly redundant? From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 16:29:29 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:29:29 +0100 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: <0F8B6DA2-ECDA-4BB7-ABB4-373600C2DFED@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4880576F-AB75-4F13-B897-75CFCA49527D@gmail.com> > On 26 Apr 2018, at 22:13, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Those Microdrives were such a Cheese design. >>> >> >> The American Cheese Society (industry association) would probably resent >> that comparison > > > I was referring to a different, non-comestible Cheese. What I stated about > the Microdrives was literally true, not a metaphor. From my own Sinclair page (http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Sinclair/index.php ): "Interesting, if sad, trivia: courtesy of Andrew Owen comes a sad note - Ben Cheese, one of the QL Engineers has passed on.....a small reminder of Ben is in this paragraph: >The Microdrives whirred at different speeds too. If you took eight, carefully selected for tone, and hooked them up to a QL (I guess an Interface 1 would do just as well, but never saw it) you could play tunes by turning the appropriate motors off and on. Christmas carols were popular... this particular silliness was cooked up by Ben Cheese, an incredibly talented and even more incredibly nice chap who was one of the QL engineers. He also did mildly subversive cartoons for the Sinclair in-house newsletter (WHAM!, or What's Happening At Milton), and played saxophone. With Shakatak, on one occasion. He went on to work at Flare with some other SInclair engineers (Martin Brennan and John Mc? um*), who had their own Z80 Spectrumalike for a while, then did various oddities including the Atari Jaguar and a disk drive chip for Amstrad that fully explored various out-of-spec conditions in the ASIC process used to fab it." (*John Mathieson) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 16:30:21 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 16:30:21 -0500 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 4:15 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 at 23:04, Fred Cisin via cctalk > > wrote: > > I'd go for a bike over a car any day. Well, when I was young, anyway. Now, > I'm getting kinda stiff and creaky... Because of all the bike crashes and > the scar tissue. > I don't know what it's like around your home, but most places in the US aren't terribly bike friendly. Since the advent of texting and smart phones even less so. Still, I keep thinking I should trade my one way 4 mile car commute for a bike ride... my fear of being struck while riding on a short half mile long section of limited sight distance hilly roads between home and work gives me some pause. We are starting to get some bike lanes and more bike friendly roadways around here though (as well as some paved greenways). I did in my younger days bike extensively around town, not so much anymore since I've got kids and a wife that count on me. :) From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Apr 26 16:43:47 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 17:43:47 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16303e989f1-c8a-26078@webjas-vad182.srv.aolmail.net> But... i have? ?yet? to see a? Kyocera...? ?Ed# ? In a message dated 4/26/2018 2:25:47 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? TRS-80 Model 100, 102, 200 (rebadged Kyoceras) From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Apr 26 16:51:41 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 14:51:41 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90CB00E5-D631-4C2B-A08D-F7F5610ACAE8@nf6x.net> > On Apr 26, 2018, at 14:25, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote: > > TRS-80 Model II and 16, 68k based "business" machines The Models II and 12 were Z80 based machines. The models 16 and 6000 were the same Z80 based machines with 68k subsystems added via additional cards to allow them to run Xenix. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 26 16:56:35 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 14:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: <16303e989f1-c8a-26078@webjas-vad182.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16303e989f1-c8a-26078@webjas-vad182.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: > > TRS-80 Model 100, 102, 200 (rebadged Kyoceras) On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > But... i have? ?yet? to see a? Kyocera...? ?Ed# NEC 8201, Olivetti M10 were more of the Kyoto Ceramics machines. NEC was about 3/8" thicker, but had much more expansion capability. 8085, 8x40 LCD, Competing unrelated machines included the Epson HC-20 (painted gray and katakana character set removed for the US HX-20) 4x20 6301, and later the Workslate (spreadsheet oriented machine!) From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Apr 26 16:58:58 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:58:58 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: <90CB00E5-D631-4C2B-A08D-F7F5610ACAE8@nf6x.net> References: <90CB00E5-D631-4C2B-A08D-F7F5610ACAE8@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 04/26/2018 05:51 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> On Apr 26, 2018, at 14:25, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote: >> >> TRS-80 Model II and 16, 68k based "business" machines > The Models II and 12 were Z80 based machines. The models 16 and 6000 were the same Z80 based machines with 68k subsystems added via additional cards to allow them to run Xenix. I believe the Z-80 was subordinate to the M68K.?? The Model 16 was developed independently of the Model II.? While Tandy had a version of Xenix to sell for it it shipped with TRSDOS-16.? It also ran CP/M-68K rather nicely.? It was a good machine destined to die when Tandy decided not to be a computer company. bill From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 17:06:32 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:06:32 +0000 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: <0B255615-A710-492B-8009-DDA76187E5C6@avanthar.com> References: <0B255615-A710-492B-8009-DDA76187E5C6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 at 16:55, Zane Healy wrote: > My first computer was supposed to be a ZX81. I worked all Summer painting the house to earn it. As it happens, my payment was a VIC-20 with a tape recorder. I guess the VIC had colour and sound, but that 22-column screen always looked too much like one of those first-generation Atari consoles to me. I never could get past that too-chunky text. Nowadays, looking back, the computer I _would_ have wanted from that era was the Acorn Atom... > The ZX Spectrum has always fascinated me, and nearly 20 years ago, I traded a Tek cartridge with a list member for a ZX Spectrum 2+. I still dream of having time to get that system up and running. Even though I?ve never run it, it?s still one of my favorite pieces in my collection. There are two different models of +2 -- the grey +2 and the black +2A. The +2 -- I have one myself -- is the Sinclair PCB in an Amstrad case. It is basically 100% compatible with a real Sinclair Research 128K+. The +2A is a cut-down Amstrad Spectrum +3, with the disk interface removed. Amstrad promised an add-on disk interface, the "SI-1", but never made one. Now, remarkably, there's a 3rd party one: https://www.8bits4ever.net/product-page/sdi-1 An essential addon for any +2A! :-D So it depends which one you have. There are lots of resources for getting them working again -- some people might even be on this list. There are replacement ULA chips, circuit diagrams, ROM disassemblies, everything you could want. This is the single most impressive Spectrum-based modification I've seen, adding 64-column text, high density floppy drives, CP/M compatibility and a switchable faster CPU: https://www.secarica.ro/index.php/en/zx-zone/plus3-hardware/the-plus3s-project -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 17:07:19 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:07:19 +0000 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: <0248C4C7-0CFE-4B50-BA83-7CE2ED45CEA0@gmail.com> References: <0248C4C7-0CFE-4B50-BA83-7CE2ED45CEA0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 at 19:54, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > I think you'd find a few people this side of the pond whose first computer was a Timex Sinclair 1000 (our equivalent of the ZX81). I know that was true in our household... My dad purchased one brand-new at Albertson's (a supermarket chain in the southeast US) for $100. We were enamored with it instantly despite its obvious drawbacks :-) I'm pleased to hear this. > and that eventually led to the purchase of a more capable machine, the TI 99/4a. Unfortunately much to my dads chagrin that happening just a few months before its drastic price cut and eventual discontinuation. Now there was a machine that suffered an ill-deserved fate. Mind you, if TI hadn't crippled it as they did, maybe it could have competed more effectively with the CBM machines without the vicious price drops. > RIP. Definitely a very influential machine worldwide and an effort worth feeling proud of. Yes indeed. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 17:11:20 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:11:20 +0000 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 at 23:30, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > I don't know what it's like around your home, but most places in the US aren't terribly bike friendly. Since the advent of texting and smart phones even less so. Still, I keep thinking I should trade my one way 4 mile car commute for a bike ride... my fear of being struck while riding on a short half mile long section of limited sight distance hilly roads between home and work gives me some pause. We are starting to get some bike lanes and more bike friendly roadways around here though (as well as some paved greenways). Well, since Fred stipulated a Honda 600, I took him to mean a motorbike. But I rarely ride those now, whereas I cycle a lot. I live in central Prague, Czechia, which is _extremely_ bike-unfriendly. It's even worse than London. But I do the 4 miles to work, and 4 miles back, most days in the summer. > I did in my younger days bike extensively around town, not so much anymore since I've got kids and a wife that count on me. :) No wife, although working on it, no kids, but still... if I didn't bike, I'd be even less fit and so less likely to stick around long. I've been in 1 bad bicycle crash (compound comminuted Colley fracture right ulna & radius), 1 bad motorcycle crash (multiple breaks to left ankle, tibia, fibula, femur and hip, fracture to right shoulder, dislocated left shoulder, whiplash), but I still ride both when I can. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 17:19:20 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:19:20 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: <90CB00E5-D631-4C2B-A08D-F7F5610ACAE8@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <89a5b833-50ea-ffc7-8cf7-256178d8c46e@gmail.com> On 04/26/2018 05:58 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/26/2018 05:51 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >>> On Apr 26, 2018, at 14:25, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> TRS-80 Model II and 16, 68k based "business" machines >> The Models II and 12 were Z80 based machines. The models 16 and 6000 were the same Z80 based machines with 68k subsystems added via additional cards to allow them to run Xenix. > I believe the Z-80 was subordinate to the M68K. THe reason for that is the 68K was available long after the Z80 (about 4 years). So the base TRS-80 had already evolved to the Mod-II by then. > ?? The Model 16 was developed > independently of the Model II.? While Tandy had a version of Xenix to > sell for it > it shipped with TRSDOS-16.? It also ran CP/M-68K rather nicely.? It was > a good > machine destined to die when Tandy decided not to be a computer company. That and the base TRS 80 both saturated the market and also left many with a bad taste when it came to expansion... least till they sorted it out. I'd left there before long before it imploded. Allison > bill > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 26 17:48:34 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I had to choose between buying not skimping on groceries V a Mini-Cooper-S >> (needed a little work) V Honda 600 V TRS80. Did I make the right choice? On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Liam Proven wrote: > I'd go for a bike over a car any day. Well, when I was young, anyway. Now, > I'm getting kinda stiff and creaky... Because of all the bike crashes and > the scar tissue. The Honda 600 was NOT a bike. Well, mostly not. After demise of the mid 1960s Honda S600/S800 ("poor-man's-Ferrari" design exercise that got out of hand and went into production), Honda engineers took a 360CC parallel twin, detuned it and upped it to 600cc, added a differential, and a reverse (tacked on to the outside of the case), and put it in a car body that resembled the Mini. AN600 was the first Hondas officially imported into USA (1970). A later Z600 had a "sportier" body, and one was cut in half in the down-under movie "Malcolm" >> Later, I bought a used Yamaha MSX (from Mitchell Waite) for him. > I never got into MSX. They ended up very impressive by the MSX2+ era. He was into music, and wanted MIDI, etc. And, of course, he never mastered conversion of the Ensoniq Mirage disks. (each track had 1024 byte sectors numbered 0 through 4, and a 512 byte sector #5) >> Then he bought a Mindset. > Mindset? Obscure 80186 MS-DOS machine with interesting graphics innovations and no market. Designed by es-Atari engineers. From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Apr 26 17:58:40 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:58:40 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163042e1845-c89-14e9d@webjas-vad207.srv.aolmail.net> I do have a workslate!? ?Odd? ?portable...? Thin we? have a printer too? for it? Ed#? www.smecc.org? ? In a message dated 4/26/2018 2:56:41 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > > TRS-80 Model 100, 102, 200 (rebadged Kyoceras) On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > But... i have? ?yet? to see a? Kyocera...? ?Ed# NEC 8201, Olivetti M10 were more of the Kyoto Ceramics machines. NEC was about 3/8" thicker, but had much more expansion capability. 8085, 8x40 LCD, Competing unrelated machines included the Epson HC-20 (painted gray and katakana character set removed for the US HX-20) 4x20 6301, and later the Workslate (spreadsheet oriented machine!) From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Apr 26 18:02:41 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 19:02:41 -0400 Subject: Amusing IBM test system model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1630431c644-c8c-2465e@webjas-vac127.srv.aolmail.net> SMECC? WOULD?BE INTERESTED?IN ALL? Thanks? Ed ? In a message dated 4/22/2018 10:22:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? I also have a few others listed: ADINTS https://www.ebay.com/itm/132588526929 IBM 1401/707 https://www.ebay.com/itm/132581434367 IBM System/3 https://www.ebay.com/itm/132593475814 Yet to be listed is a 650 and 2 suitcases of System/360 Model 70 models used in the 1964 Worlds Fair. From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 18:41:32 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:41:32 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: <90CB00E5-D631-4C2B-A08D-F7F5610ACAE8@nf6x.net> References: <90CB00E5-D631-4C2B-A08D-F7F5610ACAE8@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 26, 2018, at 4:51 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Apr 26, 2018, at 14:25, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote: >> >> TRS-80 Model II and 16, 68k based "business" machines > > The Models II and 12 were Z80 based machines. The models 16 and 6000 were the same Z80 based machines with 68k subsystems added via additional cards to allow them to run Xenix. D'oh! I knew that. But still, even more fragmentation... From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 26 19:18:47 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 17:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote: > common architecture. Do you think that if they had, say, revised and > extended the Model I system to color/80 column that the rest would have > been mostly redundant? D'ya mean like an automobile company making more than one model? Surely there is no need for Toyota to make both a Corolla AND a Camry! The Model 1 was a wild venture into a field that they knew little about, and didn't know what to expect. Ask Allison about what they expected. It turned out that what they made was surprisingly close to correct for people like US. Well, other than 16 lines by 64 characters of B&W, and a memory map that was not compatible with CP/M. But, that's not where they would expect the big money to be. So, they made a bigger "business" computer, the Model 2, with 8" drives. It could even run CP/M, for those who didn't appreciate Model 2 TRS-DOS (which is NOT closely related to TRS-DOS (by Randy Cook)) Then they upgraded the model 1 to reduce the cords and cables, and made the Model 3. I don't know whether the resemblance to the Northstar Dimension was deliberate. They made a 68000 co-processor for the Model 2, creating the models 12 and 16. They needed a low-end machine with color, games, cartridges, etc. Following a Motorola applicatoin note, they made the "Color Computer". Since it was solely for games, etc., and not intended to compete with their other models [HA!], there was "no need" for 80 column, no need for composite video, no need for a decent keyboard, . . . But what about pocket computers, PDAs, calculators? Have to come out with some offerings there. Howzbout a tablet of some sort, for wannabe journalists? Kyoto Ceramics had just the thing, ready for re-branding. Oh, and then they modified the Model 3. The Model 4 is the same, EXCEPT: 80x24 video, a "Control key" on the keyboard, memory map with RAM all the way, so it can run CP/M, AND, they changed it from battleship gray (they called that "Mercedes Silver") to white. Model 4P is same, in a luggable case. (The Elcompco earliest machines were a model 3 motherboard in a Halliburton attache case, until the 5150 came out) Frankly, although I agree that they made MANY mistakes (such as not doing the 80x24 upgrade a lot earlier!), I think that it was a fairly reasonable suite of models. Would they have been more successful if the model 2000 had been a PC clone, instead of "better than"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 19:30:58 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 00:30:58 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: <90CB00E5-D631-4C2B-A08D-F7F5610ACAE8@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 15:59 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I believe the Z-80 was subordinate to the M68K. In high-level conceptual term, maybe, depending on the software. In term of the actual capabilities of the hardware, the Z80 was firmly in control of _everything_ in the machine, including control over the MC68000, while the MC68000 had no direct control over anything but its MMU (built from TTL) and memory. If code running on the MC68000 wants to talk to anything at all, disk, tape, console, printer, serial ports, etc., all it can do is politely request that of the Z80. In that sense it's like the CPU of a CDC 6600, which can't do anything without the PPUs The Model 16 was developed > independently of the Model II. The Model 16 was developed as an expansion of the already-existing Model II, with a few other changes like half-height floppy drives that were later implemented on the Model 12 also. From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Apr 26 19:49:16 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 17:49:16 -0700 Subject: Looking for Heath H-29 operation manual and schematic Message-ID: <6E5697E1-F3A4-4B94-8793-CB2E2D82E576@fritzm.org> Al, following up on this thread from February, in case you are still looking, I just came across my copies of: - Z-29 Uers's & Technical Guide (1983) - Z-29 ASCII character and escape code chart Despite the claim to be a "Technical" guide, the above is really more of a user manual, containing in-depth description of control codes and operating modes, but not much else (no circuit descriptions nor schematics). I'll be showing at VCF West in August, and happy to bring these along and donate them to the scan queue if you are still looking for them? cheers, --FritzM. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 26 19:50:08 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 17:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: <90CB00E5-D631-4C2B-A08D-F7F5610ACAE8@nf6x.net> Message-ID: >> I believe the Z-80 was subordinate to the M68K. On Fri, 27 Apr 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > In high-level conceptual term, maybe, depending on the software. > In term of the actual capabilities of the hardware, the Z80 was firmly in > control of _everything_ in the machine, including control over the MC68000, > while the MC68000 had no direct control over anything but its MMU (built > from TTL) and memory. If code running on the MC68000 wants to talk to > anything at all, disk, tape, console, printer, serial ports, etc., all it > can do is politely request that of the Z80. In that sense it's like the CPU > of a CDC 6600, which can't do anything without the PPUs So, the Z80 ran CP/M and TRS-DOS, functioning as in I/O coprocessor for the 68000, . . . As in small business, which is "subordinate", engineering or administration? A friend of a friend was very proud of his Z80/68000 Cromemco. He was a little offended when I compared it to the Radio Shack Model 16. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 19:51:31 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:51:31 -0400 Subject: Visiting Boston - Classic computer recommendations (Huw Davies) Message-ID: > > Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 19:17:18 +1000 > From: Huw Davies > Subject: Visiting Boston - Classic computer recommendations > > I?m in Boston MA (technically Canton) for the next three weeks (April 29 > to May 19). Looking for recommendations on classic computer/classic > car/sailing things of interest to do on the weekends. > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au > Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the > Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" > > Please visit us at the Rhode Island Computer Museum. About 60 miles south of boaton. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/ We will be working in the Learning Lab on Saturdays, and can take you to the warehouse for a tour of the static storage. There are classic car museums not far away in Newport and Middletown, and lots of sail boats in Newport. -- Michael Thompson From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 26 20:00:00 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: <90CB00E5-D631-4C2B-A08D-F7F5610ACAE8@nf6x.net> Message-ID: >>> TRS-80 Model II and 16, 68k based "business" machines >> The Models II and 12 were Z80 based machines. The models 16 and 6000 were the same Z80 based machines with 68k subsystems added via additional cards to allow them to run Xenix. On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Geoff Oltmans via cctalk wrote: > D'oh! I knew that. But still, even more fragmentation... And, don't forget the Tandy 10! (oops, too late, already forgotten) 1978, built by ADDS (Applied Digital Data Systems) $8995 8080 48K RAM 2 8" drives ADOS Did they sell enough of them to recoup the cost of the product announcement? From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 21:00:16 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:00:16 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 7:18 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > D'ya mean like an automobile company making more than one model? Surely > there is no need for Toyota to make both a Corolla AND a Camry! > > Hmm... not really sure about that comparison. After all, it's not like the Corolla and Camry need different fuel and/or travel on separate roads. Plus, I expect that despite their many differences there are probably quite a few fundamental similarities (similar stereos, HVAC controls, brake components, etc). The Model 1 was a wild venture into a field that they knew little about, > and didn't know what to expect. > Ask Allison about what they expected. > It turned out that what they made was surprisingly close to correct for > people like US. > Well, other than 16 lines by 64 characters of B&W, and a memory map that > was not compatible with CP/M. > I guess they fixed that by the time the 4 came along. > But what about pocket computers, PDAs, calculators? Have to come out with > some offerings there. > Well, like I said before. I think you could easily dismiss the calculators and PDAs, since they were more of an appliance (i.e. create text documents that are easily interchangeable with other machines). Heck even a lot of the early PDAs could create spreadsheets that were compatible with Lotus 1-2-3, even moreso in some cases they were built in applications. > > Would they have been more successful if the model 2000 had been a PC > clone, instead of "better than"? > Well, in some respects they eventually managed to do that with the Tandy 1000s... some incompatibilities aside. From w2hx at w2hx.com Thu Apr 26 22:17:39 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 03:17:39 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7edfa7a0454246f7963d65159c53ed5e@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> The first personal computer I ever came in contact with was the TRS-80 Model 1 (Level II) at a friend of my father's in Long Island around 1979. I learned to program basic at his house and practiced during the summer at my junior high school that had a few Model 1's for kids to work with. The school let me come in and play. With my Bar Mitzvah money in 1980 I bought my first computer, TRS-80 model III (I think it cost me $1200). I learned a LOT on that machine. I belonged to LICA (long island computer association) and one of the guys there operated a TRS-80 business computer. I can't remember what model, (II, 12, 16, etc) but it ran Xenix. He had 2 modems and two phone lines at his house connected to it and granted access to club members. I built a micromint 300 baud acoustic coupler kit, connected my TRS-80 Model III to the phone and over to his Xenix machine. I was hooked and learn a LOT about *nix style operating systems spending HOURS tying up the only phone line in our house connected to it. Really formative years for me. When I left for college, I brought with me the TRS-80 4P. Nice little machine, did all my papers on it. All that "fragmentation" to me was wonderful. Different models, different capabilities it was magical! 73 Eugene W2HX From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 22:23:27 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:23:27 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: <90CB00E5-D631-4C2B-A08D-F7F5610ACAE8@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5AE297AF.7060508@gmail.com> Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 15:59 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I believe the Z-80 was subordinate to the M68K. > In high-level conceptual term, maybe, depending on the software. > > In term of the actual capabilities of the hardware, the Z80 was firmly in > control of _everything_ in the machine, including control over the MC68000, > while the MC68000 had no direct control over anything but its MMU (built > from TTL) and memory. If code running on the MC68000 wants to talk to > anything at all, disk, tape, console, printer, serial ports, etc., all it > can do is politely request that of the Z80. In that sense it's like the CPU > of a CDC 6600, which can't do anything without the PPUs > Interesting. HP made ISA card versions of early (or actually, pre-) HP9000-300 that were designated as "Basic Language Processors", hosting a 68000 and having GPIB I/O. Interesting beasts. I believe that they were able to take control of the ISA bus for at least some functions; they were fast for their time, and it was easy to share GPIB-acquired data with the MSDOS world. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 22:47:08 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:47:08 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: <5AE297AF.7060508@gmail.com> References: <90CB00E5-D631-4C2B-A08D-F7F5610ACAE8@nf6x.net> <5AE297AF.7060508@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 8:23 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > > Interesting. HP made ISA card versions of early (or actually, pre-) > HP9000-300 that were designated as "Basic Language Processors", hosting a > 68000 and having GPIB I/O. Interesting beasts. I believe that they were > able to take control of the ISA bus for at least some functions; they were > fast for their time, and it was easy to share GPIB-acquired data with the > MSDOS world. The HP 82324A coprocessor card wasn't an ISA bus master card. Software running on the host PC implemented some of the I/O interface. When software on the coprocessor card made some I/O accesses the coprocessor card could be frozen while software running on the host PC completed the I/O access. Hewlett-Packard Journal, April 1992 http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1992-04.pdf Page 110, A High-Performance Measurement Coprocessor for Personal Computers This article describes the second and faster version of the card based on the 68030. From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 22:53:58 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:53:58 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: <7edfa7a0454246f7963d65159c53ed5e@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <7edfa7a0454246f7963d65159c53ed5e@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <5AE29ED6.5000908@gmail.com> W2HX via cctalk wrote: > The first personal computer I ever came in contact with was the TRS-80 Model 1 (Level II) at a friend of my father's in Long Island around 1979. I learned to program basic at his house and practiced during the summer at my junior high school that had a few Model 1's for kids to work with. The school let me come in and play. > > With my Bar Mitzvah money in 1980 I bought my first computer, TRS-80 model III (I think it cost me $1200). I learned a LOT on that machine. I belonged to LICA (long island computer association) and one of the guys there operated a TRS-80 business computer. I can't remember what model, (II, 12, 16, etc) but it ran Xenix. He had 2 modems and two phone lines at his house connected to it and granted access to club members. I built a micromint 300 baud acoustic coupler kit, connected my TRS-80 Model III to the phone and over to his Xenix machine. > > I was hooked and learn a LOT about *nix style operating systems spending HOURS tying up the only phone line in our house connected to it. Really formative years for me. > > When I left for college, I brought with me the TRS-80 4P. Nice little machine, did all my papers on it. > > All that "fragmentation" to me was wonderful. Different models, different capabilities it was magical! > > 73 Eugene W2HX > I see that the actual fragmentation is about how each and everyone got in touch with computers, personal or mainframe or whatever! Me, I was in junior high and usually understood everything in the math class by the first 15 minutes, after which I would become restless (bored) and the teacher would send me several buildings away to inquire about the room temperature of the computer room, which hosted an HP3000 system with several terminals (that included primitive graphics capabilities via serial connection!). It was 1978, and I learned BASIC right there. Afterwards, it was Apple II and their Franklin clones as a freshman, running UCSD Pascal... in 1982. Later it was the Z80 card in the same computers, running CPM, but just for the sake of using the Z80 assembler tools. And we were using also the said Apple II to impersonate card readers that would send jobs to the IBM 4381, as a sophomore... My dad bought me an HP71B calculator in 1984, and that really was when my numerical math skills progressed. I still do that for a living. And the height of my BS years... getting to run MATLAB in an IBM-AT with a math co-processor. Later, as a teacher, getting my first BITNET email account in 1987, learning XENIX, wiring phonenet for the Mac network at the university, then as a grad student (1989) using VAX machines at UW-Madison, but also Apollo machines, Sun 4/50 machines, and HP-300 machines... and in1990, I telnet-ed to UCSD to run jobs in a Cray at UCSD... whoa, such memories... Carlos. From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 22:56:27 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:56:27 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: <90CB00E5-D631-4C2B-A08D-F7F5610ACAE8@nf6x.net> <5AE297AF.7060508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5AE29F6B.2060909@gmail.com> Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 8:23 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk > wrote: >> Interesting. HP made ISA card versions of early (or actually, pre-) >> HP9000-300 that were designated as "Basic Language Processors", hosting a >> 68000 and having GPIB I/O. Interesting beasts. I believe that they were >> able to take control of the ISA bus for at least some functions; they were >> fast for their time, and it was easy to share GPIB-acquired data with the >> MSDOS world. > The HP 82324A coprocessor card wasn't an ISA bus master card. Software > running on the host PC implemented some of the I/O interface. When > software on the coprocessor card made some I/O accesses the > coprocessor card could be frozen while software running on the host PC > completed the I/O access. > > Hewlett-Packard Journal, April 1992 > http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1992-04.pdf > Page 110, A High-Performance Measurement Coprocessor for Personal Computers > This article describes the second and faster version of the card based > on the 68030. Thank you, I stand corrected! carlos. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 26 23:02:29 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: <7edfa7a0454246f7963d65159c53ed5e@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <7edfa7a0454246f7963d65159c53ed5e@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2018, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > All that "fragmentation" to me was wonderful. Different models, > different capabilities it was magical! There are two different interpretations of "fragmentation". Both are implicitly negative. "Any color you want, as long as it is black" (1909) saves the company a LOT of money, by only having one model. 1) Overlapping product lines. Such as Toyota Corolla and Camry, or Honda Civic and Accord, or TRS80 Model 1 and 2, or model 1 and Coco, or Model 100 and pocket computer(s). Company competes against itself, and can never manage to claim "best selling model". 2) TOO diverse. Such as Toyota Prius and Diesel Tundra pickup, or Honda Unicub/U3x and Ridgeline, or Coco and Model 16 Company has to support too many different things, and might not ever develop the expertise in some of the lines. (The Honda N600 that I mentioned earlier was a motorcycle engine and transmission design. The previous S600/S800 was two seater sports car (looked British), with dual overhead cam, roller crank, roller wrist pins, roller distributor shaft bushings, etc. At more than 9.5K redline, it got 60+HP out of 600cc/36cubic-inch. And constant tinkering. Meanwhile, the Toyota S800 looked similar, but had essentially a lawnmower engine.) There is a fine line between not having what a specific customer needs V making them make choices. Radio Shack made some mistakes. Ranging from not having the 80x24 and full memory management for CP/M in the Model 1 (not fixed until Model FOUR), to not having a "100% compatible" PC quickly enough. They were not the only ones to think that making a "better" compatible machine would be preferable to making a clone. (cf. DEC Rainbow, Sirius/Victor 9000, TI Professional) I don't know why the company went under. I doubt that their computer line was the sole cause. They had a good run, and we are the better for having experienced it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lars at nocrew.org Fri Apr 27 00:30:26 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 05:30:26 +0000 Subject: Visiting Boston - Classic computer recommendations (Huw Davies) In-Reply-To: (Michael Thompson via cctalk's message of "Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:51:31 -0400") References: Message-ID: <7wlgd9nrm5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Michael Thompson wrote: > Please visit us at the Rhode Island Computer Museum. About 60 miles south > of boaton. > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/ If I do, I'd expect ITS to be up and running before I left. Do you have anything for KS10 networking? IMP, Chaos, Ethernet? From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 01:52:54 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 06:52:54 +0000 Subject: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 at 00:48, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > The Honda 600 was NOT a bike. Well, mostly not. After demise of the mid > 1960s Honda S600/S800 ("poor-man's-Ferrari" design exercise that got out > of hand and went into production), Honda engineers took a 360CC parallel > twin, detuned it and upped it to 600cc, added a differential, and a > reverse (tacked on to the outside of the case), and put it in a car body > that resembled the Mini. AN600 was the first Hondas officially imported > into USA (1970). A later Z600 had a "sportier" body, and one was cut in > half in the down-under movie "Malcolm" Never heard of any of them. I guess they were not sold outside North America and Japan. Kei cars are extremely rare in Europe as there is no financial advantage or incentive to own them, and without that, they're cramped and overpowered. Oddly, the 600cc "supersport" motorcycle category is huge, in contract, because insurance is much cheaper for machines of 600cc or less. But I know little of cars. Evil tin boxes, to me as a bicyclist and motorcyclist, generally driven by homicidal morons. > He was into music, and wanted MIDI, etc. Then the Atari ST would have been a better bet, no? Although of course it came some years later than MSX. > And, of course, he never mastered conversion of the Ensoniq Mirage disks. > (each track had 1024 byte sectors numbered 0 through 4, and a 512 byte > sector #5) O_o > > Mindset? > Obscure 80186 MS-DOS machine with interesting graphics innovations and no > market. Designed by es-Atari engineers. *Googles* Nifty but even in 1984 I think I could have told you that that was a heavily-compromised design... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 05:34:05 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 06:34:05 -0400 Subject: Visiting Boston - Classic computer recommendations (Huw Davies) In-Reply-To: <7wlgd9nrm5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wlgd9nrm5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: The KS10 is at my house, along with my DEC, SGI, and Sun collection. I have a DEUNA and another Unibus Ethernet board, but have not installed them. At the Lab, we have a PDP-12, and a PDP-8/I that are running. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 27, 2018, at 1:30 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > Michael Thompson wrote: >> Please visit us at the Rhode Island Computer Museum. About 60 miles south >> of boaton. >> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/ > > If I do, I'd expect ITS to be up and running before I left. > > Do you have anything for KS10 networking? IMP, Chaos, Ethernet? From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Apr 27 06:18:00 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 11:18:00 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/26/2018 10:00 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 7:18 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> D'ya mean like an automobile company making more than one model? Surely >> there is no need for Toyota to make both a Corolla AND a Camry! >> >> > Hmm... not really sure about that comparison. After all, it's not like the > Corolla and Camry need different fuel and/or travel on separate roads. > Plus, I expect that despite their many differences there are probably quite > a few fundamental similarities (similar stereos, HVAC controls, brake > components, etc). > > The Model 1 was a wild venture into a field that they knew little about, At that point in time it was a field everybody knew little about. >> and didn't know what to expect. >> Ask Allison about what they expected. >> It turned out that what they made was surprisingly close to correct for >> people like US. >> Well, other than 16 lines by 64 characters of B&W, and a memory map that >> was not compatible with CP/M. >> > I guess they fixed that by the time the 4 came along. CP/M ran on the Model I and the Model III.? CP/M was a very adaptable OS. > > > >> But what about pocket computers, PDAs, calculators? Have to come out with >> some offerings there. >> > Well, like I said before. I think you could easily dismiss the calculators > and PDAs, since they were more of an appliance (i.e. create text documents > that are easily interchangeable with other machines). Heck even a lot of > the early PDAs could create spreadsheets that were compatible with Lotus > 1-2-3, even moreso in some cases they were built in applications. > > >> Would they have been more successful if the model 2000 had been a PC >> clone, instead of "better than"? >> > Well, in some respects they eventually managed to do that with the Tandy > 1000s... some incompatibilities aside. Tandy wasn't the only one who tried to do better.? Look at the NEC APC. Quad Density Double Sided 8" disks. High density color graphics with 256 colors.? Dismal failure in the market because it wasn't fully "IBM Compatible". The follow-on NEC APC/III was a great big step backwards. bill From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 27 08:06:23 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 06:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Then they upgraded the model 1 to reduce the cords and cables, and made the > Model 3. I don't know whether the resemblance to the Northstar Dimension was > deliberate. > I think the primary driver for the Model III was that the Model I would no longer pass the FCC emission tests due to regulation changes. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From pete at pski.net Fri Apr 27 08:55:26 2018 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 09:55:26 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <956F1D34-99B3-4ED6-86A4-A987ADB81505@pski.net> Excuse my long post, but I get excited whenever I can talk about the Model 16. :) I will expound a bit on what was already mentioned. The Model 16 was an engineering marvel. It was released in 1982 in the same form factor as the venerable Model II. It was essentially an upgraded Model II. In fact, the Model II could be upgraded to mostly Model 16 specs via an upgrade kit. The 16 was a dual processor machine with 2 independent computer systems running in parallel, one a Z80 and the other a MC68000. The Z80 side of the machine ran just as it did on the Model II. This was a big advantage in that the machine could run the entire Model II library of programs. The 68K subsystem consisted of a CPU card and one or more memory cards which shared their own independent bus (via ribbon cables) from the Z80 bus. When the 16 was running with a 68K OS, the Z80 subsystem controlled all I/O via the main computer bus. The Z80 and 68K communicate via shared memory in the 68K memory space with both sides essentially rapidly polling certain locations for requests and responses placed in memory. There was a facility available in the 16 for the 68K to interrupt the Z80, but since the Model II with the Model 16 upgrade did not have this capability, no operating systems took advantage of this feature AFAIK since the percentage of machines using the upgrade was significant. One cool feature is that the Z80 could bank switch in 16K of any location on the 68K memory so Z80 programs run on the Model 16 could use the 68K memory without a 68K OS. When it was released in 1982, the Model 16 came with TRSDOS-16. This was essentially a MC68000 runtime that ran on the 68K boards. With TRSDOS-16, the Z80 side of the machine ran the Z80 TRSDOS-II OS. A huge issue was that the Model 16 was released with almost no software ready to take advantage of the 68K. This was a classic case of the hardware way ahead of the software. This resulted in Tandy actually including a copy of the Assembler 16 with every Model 16 sold so that customers could write their own software. TRSDOS-16 had many limitations, a few of which was that it was only single user and that the assembler used non-standard 68K mnemonics. Tandy knew they needed a multi-user system for the system to succeed, and was considering Unos as the solution when for whatever reason they could not make that happen. They then pivoted to XENIX which was finally released maybe a year or so after the machine. The initial releases were rushed and as a result very buggy. Tandy lost a lot of market time advantage due to this fumble. However, XENIX ultimately did well on the platform. So much so that a year later the Model 16B, which was a 68K version of the Model II?s successor, the Model 12, was the most popular Unix based workstation on the market. An upgrade of the machine to the Tandy 6000 a year or so later saw an increase in processing power. But by then, we all know the story of the IBM PCs architecture dominance of the market and Tandy?s attempts to succeed in that area. This caused internal business conflicts which eventually doomed the MC68000 architecture at the company. From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 08:59:32 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:59:32 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 8:06 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Then they upgraded the model 1 to reduce the cords and cables, and made >> the Model 3. I don't know whether the resemblance to the Northstar >> Dimension was deliberate. >> >> > I think the primary driver for the Model III was that the Model I would no > longer pass the FCC emission tests due to regulation changes. > > I've heard this before too, which is all the more curious considering that the original Atari 400/800 machines were hampered in their construction due to RFI restrictions by the FCC earlier on that were relaxed later. I wonder how much better off Atari would have been if they were able to fit a simple metal shield instead of that crazy cast metal PCB enclosure. I have also heard that the CRT sold for the Model I had some safety concerns? I think that was just a rebadged RCA TV set with the tuner section removed? Supposedly the RFI restrictions is one of the reasons that Apple didn't include an RF modulator under the hood (and presumably TI on the 99/4(a)). From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 09:08:31 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 09:08:31 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: <5AE29ED6.5000908@gmail.com> References: <7edfa7a0454246f7963d65159c53ed5e@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <5AE29ED6.5000908@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:53 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I see that the actual fragmentation is about how each and everyone got in > touch with computers, personal or mainframe or whatever! Me, I was in > junior high and usually understood everything in the math class by the > first 15 minutes, after which I would become restless (bored) and the > teacher would send me several buildings away to inquire about the room > temperature of the computer room, which hosted an HP3000 system with > several terminals (that included primitive graphics capabilities via serial > connection!). It was 1978, and I learned BASIC right there. Afterwards, it > was Apple II and their Franklin clones as a freshman, running UCSD > Pascal... in 1982. Later it was the Z80 card in the same computers, > running CPM, but just for the sake of using the Z80 assembler tools. And > we were using also the said Apple II to impersonate card readers that would > send jobs to the IBM 4381, as a sophomore... My dad bought me an HP71B > calculator in 1984, and that really was when my numerical math skills > progressed. I still do that for a living. And the height of my BS > years... getting to run MATLAB in an IBM-AT with a math co-processor. > Later, as a teacher, getting my first BITNET email account in 1987, > learning XENIX, wiring phonenet for the Mac network at the university, then > as a grad student (1989) using VAX machines at UW-Madison, but also Apollo > machines, Sun 4/50 machines, and HP-300 machines... and in1990, I > telnet-ed to UCSD to run jobs in a Cray at UCSD... whoa, such memories... > Don't get me wrong. Like you I learned a lot due to all the variety of differing machines that were available in the market early on. From a business perspective I don't think it made a lot of sense however to have so many internally competing models. Of course then, I guess you could argue that Atari probably had the most cohesive set of computers, but that didn't necessarily translate to great success. I guess that did mostly work for Apple with the II line, save for the major III distraction. From cctalk at snarc.net Thu Apr 26 12:09:03 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 13:09:03 -0400 Subject: Visiting Boston - Classic computer recommendations In-Reply-To: <03BF3B4D-D99B-4AB3-B9A2-476291E44EB2@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <03BF3B4D-D99B-4AB3-B9A2-476291E44EB2@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <34923f45-f236-a539-f1c6-f528939f9992@snarc.net> > I?m in Boston MA (technically Canton) for the next three weeks (April 29 to May 19). Looking for recommendations on classic computer/classic car/sailing things of interest to do on the weekends. - Visit the Science building at Harvard U. (Cambridge), where they have (most of) the Mark-1 computer on display from the 1940s - MIT Press bookstore (Cambridge) - Not vintage, but you must visit You-Do-It Electronics in a town called Needham From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 14:09:49 2018 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:09:49 +0200 Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, this kind of keyboards was made using small pieces of conductive rubber to close the circuit designed on the PCB. The rubber was an uniform compound, so even with severe usage, i.e. high consumption, the conductivity remained constant. However, in more recent / cheaper products, the rubber is the same for the whole keyboard, i.e. simple insulating silicone rubber. The conductive surface is only painted over the silicone. No doubt it comes away faster... In this case, cleaning with alcohol just removes the remaining paint, referring the keyboard useless. The solution is simple: cover the key contacts with something conductive. I know that conductive paint is sold somewhere, but it's pricey and don't think it would last much... The cheapo solution is to cut small pieces of aluminum foil, and glue it to the rubber. Given that the keyboard is almost always made by silicone, I always use silicone glue to assure the sickness. Be careful to put a very thin layer of it only over the center of the foil, then put it in place and press a bit around with the fingertip to let it take the shape of the contract. Too much silicone would come out when pressed and would cover the graphite on the PCB. This method worked well with several TV remote controls. I could suggest you to try with one key, then let the silicone to dry before remounting the keyboard, then check the result and eventually repeat on other keys. Andrea From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 26 15:49:48 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:49:48 +0000 Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Just out of curiosity, you might try a little extra fine sand paper on the button. You have little to loose as it doesn't work anyway. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of shadoooo via cctech Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 12:09:49 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer Hello, this kind of keyboards was made using small pieces of conductive rubber to close the circuit designed on the PCB. The rubber was an uniform compound, so even with severe usage, i.e. high consumption, the conductivity remained constant. However, in more recent / cheaper products, the rubber is the same for the whole keyboard, i.e. simple insulating silicone rubber. The conductive surface is only painted over the silicone. No doubt it comes away faster... In this case, cleaning with alcohol just removes the remaining paint, referring the keyboard useless. The solution is simple: cover the key contacts with something conductive. I know that conductive paint is sold somewhere, but it's pricey and don't think it would last much... The cheapo solution is to cut small pieces of aluminum foil, and glue it to the rubber. Given that the keyboard is almost always made by silicone, I always use silicone glue to assure the sickness. Be careful to put a very thin layer of it only over the center of the foil, then put it in place and press a bit around with the fingertip to let it take the shape of the contract. Too much silicone would come out when pressed and would cover the graphite on the PCB. This method worked well with several TV remote controls. I could suggest you to try with one key, then let the silicone to dry before remounting the keyboard, then check the result and eventually repeat on other keys. Andrea From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Apr 27 09:58:35 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 14:58:35 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: <7edfa7a0454246f7963d65159c53ed5e@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <5AE29ED6.5000908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <96BE4E14-1A0D-45F3-A3CC-E6273138BB3E@swri.edu> > On Apr 27, 2018, at 9:08 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote: > > Don't get me wrong. Like you I learned a lot due to all the variety of > differing machines that were available in the market early on. From a > business perspective I don't think it made a lot of sense however to have > so many internally competing models. > > Of course then, I guess you could argue that Atari probably had the most > cohesive set of computers, but that didn't necessarily translate to great > success. I guess that did mostly work for Apple with the II line, save for > the major III distraction. This is actually a pretty interesting topic, and relevant both to decision-making today and to classic computers. How did, and how should have, companies select architectures (CPU families, bus structures, peripheral strategies, etc.) to ensure continued viability? Some examples I see and my simple-minded scorecard below. I?m trying to stick with hardware vendors, so I left Microsoft and NeXT (possibly unjustly) off the list, but in some cases (Tandy? TI? Digital Group?) I think the imbalance between hardware development and software development was a huge factor in the company?s success or lack thereof. Comments or corrections most welcome! Digital Group: support 3 (?) different processor families on the same bus architecture (sort of) technically very impressive, but flexibility -> cost -> low market share; not long-term successful DEC: support almost every available CPU, and invent some of your own besides. since supported everything, had price/performance dominance in most categories, but let *one* category slip away - business desktops - where much of the money was. Successful for a long time, but development costs overtook revenue eventually. Apple: support one CPU, switching product line to another CPU as needed. Able to pick architectures to create new markets; limited interoperability but able to survive on single-market dominance (hobbyists, then education, then graphic design, then PDA?s?) Tandy: Support every architecture, often 2 at a time in the same box: Mixed record, some winners and some losers; Software development often lagging sorely behind hardware, ultimately not successful. TI: Single-architecture, lock-in software ecosystem Substantial money-loser even with potentially world-beating hardware (CPU); software achilles heel along with architecture bottlenecks on performance. others? There are many complicating factors, of course. E.g. embedded systems have very different requirements from CAD workstations. Should a company maintain different architectures to support both, and how compatible should they be? It looks to me like really strong support for outside developers is key for hardware providers, whether that is in the form of a cheap and effective development toolkit and good developer?s forum or a completely open architecture. - Mark From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 27 10:11:25 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > CP/M ran on the Model I and the Model III.? CP/M was a very adaptable OS. CP/M required RAM where the TRS80 Model 1 and 3 had ROM. An unmodified TRS80 (model 1 or model 3) could not run unmodified CP/M. FMG? marketed a relocated CP/M for the TRS80. But, moving CP/M to a different area of memory wasn't a satisfactory solution. It worked, and was CP/M, but few commercial CP/M programs would work with it, since they assumed that the TPA (Transient Program Area) would be where it usually was for CP/M. But, it let me use TRS80 Model 1 to teach beginning basics of CP/M in my disk operating systems class. (such as creating a zero length file to restart a program) Parasitic Engineering (Howard Fullmer (later chief engineer at Morrow) had a company in Berkeley) marketed a sandwich board for the CPU, and another for the FDC, that altered the memory map, and also provided for 8" drives. Omikron in Berkeley made a similar setup. I had both. Neither were cheap. Later, in the Model 3 days, there were some more relocations and adapters for CP/M, such as FEC, Holmes, Hurricane labs, Memory Merchant, Micro Craft. Was Montezuma Micro (Ron Jones?) for Model 3 or model 4? > Tandy wasn't the only one who tried to do better.? Look at the NEC APC. > Quad Density Double Sided 8" disks. High density color graphics with 256 > colors.? Dismal failure in the market because it wasn't fully "IBM > Compatible". > The follow-on NEC APC/III was a great big step backwards. Or DEC Rainbow. Or Sirius/Victor 9000. Tandy wasn't the only one who thought that a "better" MS-DOS machine would be preferable to a clone. There were many companies who made MS-DOS machines with various levels of compatibility, who had 80 track per side (96tpi) drives, such as Burroughs ET2120, Canon AS100, Rainbow, Eagle, IBM PC/JX, Monroe, Otrona (although their documentation writers misinterpreted 50h (80) as 50! as discussed here 6 months ago), Siemens, Televideo TS1603, Toshiba T300, . . . The Toshiba T300, for example, was reasonably compatible, other than 80 track per side disk format, and they swapped the video memory location between CGA and MDA. I ran PC-Write on one of them (I patched PC-Write for the other video memory). Later, I loaned 2 of them to the California NMRI division of Toshiba for them to read disks. Unfortunately, they returned them after they were finished. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 27 10:33:56 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Fragmentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2018, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote: > heard that the CRT sold for the Model I had some safety concerns? I think > that was just a rebadged RCA TV set with the tuner section removed? Yes Although I think that it is likely that Tandy bought them before a tuner was put in, rather than remove already installed tuners. In early episodes of "Married With Children", you can see that model of TV on Al Bundy's kitchen counter. (off-white, not battleship gray/"Mercedes Silver") The signal cable for it comes out of the hole where the volume control would have been. The open area where the tuner would have been is large enough to mount a full-height floppy with a small power supply and a mumetal shield. > Supposedly the RFI restrictions is one of the reasons that Apple didn't > include an RF modulator under the hood (and presumably TI on the 99/4(a)). even IBM. CGA boards, even Compaq's have a 4 pin Berg "RF modulator connector". From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Apr 27 10:42:44 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:42:44 -0700 Subject: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13c78389-f89e-0085-56a4-1114d5dc7aba@snowmoose.com> On 4/26/18 11:52 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 at 00:48, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> The Honda 600 was NOT a bike. Well, mostly not. After demise of the mid >> 1960s Honda S600/S800 ("poor-man's-Ferrari" design exercise that got out >> of hand and went into production), Honda engineers took a 360CC parallel >> twin, detuned it and upped it to 600cc, added a differential, and a >> reverse (tacked on to the outside of the case), and put it in a car body >> that resembled the Mini. AN600 was the first Hondas officially imported >> into USA (1970). A later Z600 had a "sportier" body, and one was cut in >> half in the down-under movie "Malcolm" > Never heard of any of them. I guess they were not sold outside North > America and Japan. The Z600 was sold on the Continent. Per Wikipedia, about a thousand were sold. > > Kei cars are extremely rare in Europe as there is no financial advantage or > incentive to own them, and without that, they're cramped and overpowered. That mostly sums it up, but there are some kei cars that interest enthusiasts, such as the Honda Beat and certain versions of the Suzuki Alto. A local shop here has three Mazda/Autozam AZ-1s and I am very tempted to get one. > > Oddly, the 600cc "supersport" motorcycle category is huge, in contract, > because insurance is much cheaper for machines of 600cc or less. > > But I know little of cars. Evil tin boxes, to me as a bicyclist and > motorcyclist, generally driven by homicidal morons. Given the other people on the roads around here, I will take the additional protection provided by my evil tin box. I won't ride my motorcycle in the city unless it is to the dealer for service. Too many very close calls. Then again, I saw a motorcyclist almost take out a pedestrian (in a crosswalk, with the light) yesterday. alan P.S. To get this kinda back on topic, yesterday I managed to take the two SPARCstation 20s that I got from Pete's and make one working dual-processor SS20. I also passed on one of the SS5s to its new owner. The person who originally spoke up for the SS20 has not responded to subsequent e-mail, so it may be available. I will also have a SS1 and SS2 available, but I need to order more IDPROMs before I can finish refurb'ing them. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 10:47:49 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 11:47:49 -0400 Subject: Early Honda cars - was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin via cctalk" Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 6:48 PM > The Honda 600 was NOT a bike. Well, mostly not. After demise of the mid > 1960s Honda S600/S800 ("poor-man's-Ferrari" design exercise that got out > of hand and went into production), Honda engineers took a 360CC parallel > twin, detuned it and upped it to 600cc, added a differential, and a > reverse (tacked on to the outside of the case), and put it in a car body > that resembled the Mini. AN600 was the first Hondas officially imported > into USA (1970). A later Z600 had a "sportier" body, and one was cut in > half in the down-under movie "Malcolm" ----------------------- Sounds like you never got the original N360 "Street Car" (360cc 'Mini' before the 600cc 'upgrade') down there; not a big seller here in Canada either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_N360 Their first 4-wheeler was actually the T360 pickup truck; ridiculous as it sounds in North America, a light 360cc truck actually found a market among golf clubs for course maintenance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_T360 I loved my S600 roadster while it lasted; it wasn't very fast but sure sounded great at 10,000 RPM. Not many cars have "adjust drive chains" as part of regular maintenance ;-) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_S600 From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Apr 27 15:55:16 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 13:55:16 -0700 Subject: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <349fa144-8148-844d-2852-d314870ec066@snowmoose.com> I wrote: >... yesterday I managed to take the two SPARCstation 20s that I gotfrom >Pete's and make one working dual-processor SS20. I alsopassed on one of >the SS5s to its new owner. The person who originally spoke up for the >SS20 has not responded to subsequent e-mail, so it may be available. I >will also have a SS1 and SS2 available, but I need to order more IDPROMs >before I can finish refurb'ing them. An update - The person who spoke up for a SS20 responded this morning and the one that I put together from the two broken ones from Pete's will soon be on its way to its new home. What I have left to give away are: - SPARCstation 20 chassis. No top cover. The front left corner plastic ?cover is missing and the front right plastic cover has broken tabs and ?won't stay on. It has a working power supply and a motherboard that the ?firmware reports "replace motherboard" during diagnostics. It has no ?MBus (processor) or SBus cards nor any memory. It has the HDD backplane, ?cabling for the HDD and optical drive, and the drive cooling fan. - SPARCstation 2. Complete and boots into SunOS 4. It has 48M memory, a ?Sun207 (nominal 207M) HDD, and a 3.5" floppy drive. It also has an extra ?SCSI SBus card (501-1759) and a GX CG6 frame buffer, dual-slot SBus card ?(501-1645). It has a bad IDPROM and the case needs to be cleaned. It has ?its hostname "smoked" written all over it; I don't know if there is a ?story that goes with that. - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from that ?it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a 3.5" ?floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't ?have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it ?needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of the ?case is broken off. If you want one of these, the systems themselves are free. I just want shipping costs and actual parts expenses (i.e., IDPROMs, HDDs, etc.). The 22x22x6 box that they fit in costs $15 (when bought one-at-a-time). I haven't weighed a SS1/2, but the boxed SS20 weighed 30 lbs. The ship-from zip is 98110. If you are local to Puget Sound, I will deliver. What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on Mouser. SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs with a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I read), SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive. If no one chimes in NOW and says that he wants one to refurb himself, I will start refurb'ing the SS1 and 2. alan From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 17:03:52 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 15:03:52 -0700 Subject: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP)) In-Reply-To: <349fa144-8148-844d-2852-d314870ec066@snowmoose.com> References: <349fa144-8148-844d-2852-d314870ec066@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from that > it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a 3.5" > floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't > have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it > needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of the > case is broken off. > > What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on Mouser. > SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus > shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs with > a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I read), > SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive. > When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery NVRAM type of thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the currently available versions of those new at Mouser fully compatible? Those are one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully compatible with the old versions for some systems, even though they are supposed to be. My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much demand for those it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around to doing anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem to be a lot less common, and maybe more collectible. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 17:15:51 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 18:15:51 -0400 Subject: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP)) In-Reply-To: References: <349fa144-8148-844d-2852-d314870ec066@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Don't get the new MK48T02/MK48T08s from Mouser et al, they're not fully compatible. They will retain NVRAM but the clock part is different and you'll get an error on that (system won't autoboot). Rebuild your old NVRAM! I made up some little boards to make the repair cleaner and faster to do (I had about 50 NVRAMs to repair): http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1 There are other guides for tacking on a coin cell holder without cutting off the entire top encapsulation, but if you do that, it may not fit under SBus cards if you're doing it on a system that puts SBus slots over the NVRAM. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk > wrote: > > > > - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from that > > it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a 3.5" > > floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't > > have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it > > needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of the > > case is broken off. > > > > What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on Mouser. > > SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus > > shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs > with > > a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I > read), > > SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive. > > > > When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery NVRAM type of > thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the currently > available versions of those new at Mouser fully compatible? Those are > one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully > compatible with the old versions for some systems, even though they > are supposed to be. > > My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much demand for those > it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around to doing > anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem to be a lot > less common, and maybe more collectible. > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 17:18:37 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 18:18:37 -0400 Subject: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP)) In-Reply-To: References: <349fa144-8148-844d-2852-d314870ec066@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Tip on replacement hard drives: you can use a SCA drive with an adapter inside some Sun boxes, or my personal favorite, a Sun "UniDisk" enclosure with a SCA drive inside. SCA drives are really cheap, even for big ones (they go up to 300 GB), and you can still get some of the later production drives with 0 hours on them. You'll usually need to create a partition less than 1 GB within the first 1 GB of the drive, or your Sun won't be able to boot it. Larger partitions after that are OK. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:15 PM, systems_glitch wrote: > Don't get the new MK48T02/MK48T08s from Mouser et al, they're not fully > compatible. They will retain NVRAM but the clock part is different and > you'll get an error on that (system won't autoboot). Rebuild your old > NVRAM! I made up some little boards to make the repair cleaner and faster > to do (I had about 50 NVRAMs to repair): > > http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1 > > There are other guides for tacking on a coin cell holder without cutting > off the entire top encapsulation, but if you do that, it may not fit under > SBus cards if you're doing it on a system that puts SBus slots over the > NVRAM. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk >> wrote: >> > >> > - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from >> that >> > it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a >> 3.5" >> > floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't >> > have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it >> > needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of the >> > case is broken off. >> > >> > What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on >> Mouser. >> > SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus >> > shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs >> with >> > a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I >> read), >> > SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive. >> > >> >> When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery NVRAM type of >> thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the currently >> available versions of those new at Mouser fully compatible? Those are >> one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully >> compatible with the old versions for some systems, even though they >> are supposed to be. >> >> My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much demand for those >> it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around to doing >> anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem to be a lot >> less common, and maybe more collectible. >> > > From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Apr 27 17:28:54 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 15:28:54 -0700 Subject: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP)) In-Reply-To: References: <349fa144-8148-844d-2852-d314870ec066@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: The ones from Mouser work well enough in every system that I have used them in. I still get the IDPROM corrupt message on boot on some systems, but it holds the MAC and the systems boot without intervention. I tried to repair a few and botched most of them. I know that I should be using the GlitchWorks stuff, but it has been easier to just buy something that I can plug in. alan On 4/27/18 3:15 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Don't get the new MK48T02/MK48T08s from Mouser et al, they're not fully > compatible. They will retain NVRAM but the clock part is different and > you'll get an error on that (system won't autoboot). Rebuild your old > NVRAM! I made up some little boards to make the repair cleaner and faster > to do (I had about 50 NVRAMs to repair): > > http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1 > > There are other guides for tacking on a coin cell holder without cutting > off the entire top encapsulation, but if you do that, it may not fit under > SBus cards if you're doing it on a system that puts SBus slots over the > NVRAM. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk >> wrote: >>> - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from that >>> it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a 3.5" >>> floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't >>> have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it >>> needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of the >>> case is broken off. >>> >>> What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on Mouser. >>> SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus >>> shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs >> with >>> a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I >> read), >>> SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive. >>> >> When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery NVRAM type of >> thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the currently >> available versions of those new at Mouser fully compatible? Those are >> one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully >> compatible with the old versions for some systems, even though they >> are supposed to be. >> >> My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much demand for those >> it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around to doing >> anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem to be a lot >> less common, and maybe more collectible. >> From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 17:33:47 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 18:33:47 -0400 Subject: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP)) In-Reply-To: References: <349fa144-8148-844d-2852-d314870ec066@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: You can always send me the dead modules and I'll rebuild them (GlitchWorks == me, my wife sometimes helps with assembly). Whatever you do, don't throw out the dead NVRAMs -- I'll buy them or pay for you to ship them or whatever, they're not making more and they're the only solution that's 100% compatible. Yeah, the "still works but pukes errors" is the typical symptom of the newer, slightly incompatible 48T02s in Sun machines. I don't recall if mine kept accurate time with the newer modules. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The ones from Mouser work well enough in every system that I have used > them in. I still get the IDPROM corrupt message on boot on some systems, > but it holds the MAC and the systems boot without intervention. > > I tried to repair a few and botched most of them. I know that I should be > using the GlitchWorks stuff, but it has been easier to just buy something > that I can plug in. > > alan > > > On 4/27/18 3:15 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > >> Don't get the new MK48T02/MK48T08s from Mouser et al, they're not fully >> compatible. They will retain NVRAM but the clock part is different and >> you'll get an error on that (system won't autoboot). Rebuild your old >> NVRAM! I made up some little boards to make the repair cleaner and faster >> to do (I had about 50 NVRAMs to repair): >> >> http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1 >> >> There are other guides for tacking on a coin cell holder without cutting >> off the entire top encapsulation, but if you do that, it may not fit under >> SBus cards if you're doing it on a system that puts SBus slots over the >> NVRAM. >> >> Thanks, >> Jonathan >> >> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>> - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from >>>> that >>>> it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a >>>> 3.5" >>>> floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't >>>> have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it >>>> needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of >>>> the >>>> case is broken off. >>>> >>>> What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on >>>> Mouser. >>>> SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus >>>> shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs >>>> >>> with >>> >>>> a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I >>>> >>> read), >>> >>>> SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive. >>>> >>>> When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery NVRAM type of >>> thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the currently >>> available versions of those new at Mouser fully compatible? Those are >>> one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully >>> compatible with the old versions for some systems, even though they >>> are supposed to be. >>> >>> My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much demand for those >>> it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around to doing >>> anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem to be a lot >>> less common, and maybe more collectible. >>> >>> > From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Apr 27 17:35:15 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 15:35:15 -0700 Subject: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP)) In-Reply-To: References: <349fa144-8148-844d-2852-d314870ec066@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 4/27/18 3:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk > wrote: >> - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from that >> it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a 3.5" >> floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't >> have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it >> needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of the >> case is broken off. >> >> What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on Mouser. >> SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus >> shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs with >> a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I read), >> SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive. >> > When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery NVRAM type of > thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the currently > available versions of those new at Mouser fully compatible? Those are > one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully > compatible with the old versions for some systems, even though they > are supposed to be. Yes. The better option is to repair the NVRAM to use a replaceable battery. As noted elsewhere, the new ones on Mouser aren't completely compatible, but they work good enough in my experience with the lunchbox systems and SS5/20s. > > My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much demand for those > it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around to doing > anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem to be a lot > less common, and maybe more collectible. I don't think there is much demand. The SS5s and 20s that I got from Pete's place were claimed quickly. No takers yet for the SS1 or SS2. If there ends up being no takers, I will still refurb them and make them into nice running systems. alan From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Apr 27 17:40:49 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 15:40:49 -0700 Subject: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP)) In-Reply-To: References: <349fa144-8148-844d-2852-d314870ec066@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <24cbf3bc-efca-b755-459c-6780124c079c@snowmoose.com> I keep them all. Not counting the bad ones in the SS1 and 2, I have 7. I can send them to you. I don't mind pick up the shipping costs for something small like that. But the $70 that is it going to cost to ship the SS20 to its new home is another matter. alan On 4/27/18 3:33 PM, systems_glitch wrote: > You can always send me the dead modules and I'll rebuild them > (GlitchWorks == me, my wife sometimes helps with assembly). Whatever > you do, don't throw out the dead NVRAMs -- I'll buy them or pay for > you to ship them or whatever, they're not making more and they're the > only solution that's 100% compatible. > > Yeah, the "still works but pukes errors" is the typical symptom of the > newer, slightly incompatible 48T02s in Sun machines. I don't recall if > mine kept accurate time with the newer modules. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk > > wrote: > > The ones from Mouser work well enough in every system that I have > used them in. I still get the IDPROM corrupt message on boot on > some systems, but it holds the MAC and the systems boot without > intervention. > > I tried to repair a few and botched most of them. I know that I > should be using the GlitchWorks stuff, but it has been easier to > just buy something that I can plug in. > > alan > > > On 4/27/18 3:15 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > Don't get the new MK48T02/MK48T08s from Mouser et al, they're > not fully > compatible. They will retain NVRAM but the clock part is > different and > you'll get an error on that (system won't autoboot). Rebuild > your old > NVRAM! I made up some little boards to make the repair cleaner > and faster > to do (I had about 50 NVRAMs to repair): > > http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1 > > > There are other guides for tacking on a coin cell holder > without cutting > off the entire top encapsulation, but if you do that, it may > not fit under > SBus cards if you're doing it on a system that puts SBus slots > over the > NVRAM. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk > > wrote: > > - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad > IDPROM; aside from that > ? it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no > HDD now, and a 3.5" > ? floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the > IDPROM, it doesn't > ? have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). > Like the SS2, it > ? needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover > over the rear of the > ? case is broken off. > > What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are > around $25 on Mouser. > SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD > are $60 plus > shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of > 25 year old HDDs > > with > > a stated service life of 5 years (according to one > spec sheet that I > > read), > > SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive. > > When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery > NVRAM type of > thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the > currently > available versions of those new at Mouser fully > compatible? Those are > one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully > compatible with the old versions for some systems, even > though they > are supposed to be. > > My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much > demand for those > it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around > to doing > anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem > to be a lot > less common, and maybe more collectible. > > > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 09:57:41 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 14:57:41 +0000 Subject: IBM 5140 - schematics? Message-ID: Hey all, I have an IBM 5140 portable with a printer but I'd really like to use it as a terminal among other things. Any chance there's documentation available for that Centronics connector or another internal header with RS232 or whatever? =] -- -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 11:27:02 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:27:02 +0100 Subject: IBM 5140 - schematics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 3:57 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Hey all, > > I have an IBM 5140 portable with a printer but I'd really like to use it as > a terminal among other things. Any chance there's documentation available > for that Centronics connector or another internal header with RS232 or > whatever? I've never seen schematics for this machine (and as I don't own one, I haven't reverse-engineered it). However there is a technical reference manual, 6280655_PC_Convertable_Technical_Reference_Volume_1_Feb86.pdf which I think I got from Bitsavers. Page 46 and following of that .pdf (page 2-37 and following of the original manual) give the pinout and signals on the 'I/O Channel connector' which I think is the one you are asking about. Looks to be pretty much the 8 bit ISA bus signals. It's a 72 pin connector, good luck in finding something to fit it! -tony From dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 03:40:03 2018 From: dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com (Dennis Grevenstein) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:40:03 +0200 Subject: SPARCserver 600 PROMs Message-ID: <1ACF9D87-7B16-4953-AE53-694B25F849E3@gmail.com> Hi, I am looking for years now for bootproms for a SPARCserver 600. I have been able to obtain 2.14 prom images and they work. This allows upgrading the CPUs to SuperSPARC I. However, you need 2.14.3 to install faster CPUs and some slightly different 2.14.3H to install HyperSPARC CPUs. There is a set of images going around in archives, this it?s actually 2.14, rather than 2.14.3. Does anyone here have prom images of 2.14.3 or 2.14.3H? thanks, Dennis -- Don't suffer from insanity... Enjoy every minute of it. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 15:00:14 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 20:00:14 +0000 Subject: IBM 5140 - schematics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > 6280655_PC_Convertable_Technical_Reference_Volume_1_Feb86.pdf > > which I think I got from Bitsavers. Page 46 and following of that .pdf > (page 2-37 and following of the original manual) give the pinout and > signals on the 'I/O Channel connector' which I think is the one you > are asking about. Looks to be pretty much the 8 bit ISA bus > signals. > > It's a 72 pin connector, good luck in finding something to fit it! > > -tony > Surprised there is no regular rs232 port > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 15:13:35 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:13:35 -0300 Subject: IBM 5140 - schematics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <622d2e2c-d6cd-7da0-84ac-28d21319c990@gmail.com> On 2018-04-28 5:00 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> 6280655_PC_Convertable_Technical_Reference_Volume_1_Feb86.pdf >> >> which I think I got from Bitsavers. Page 46 and following of that .pdf >> (page 2-37 and following of the original manual) give the pinout and >> signals on the 'I/O Channel connector' which I think is the one you >> are asking about. Looks to be pretty much the 8 bit ISA bus >> signals. >> >> It's a 72 pin connector, good luck in finding something to fit it! >> >> -tony >> > Surprised there is no regular rs232 port > There is an add on serial/parallel port that has a standard RS-232 port, they are pretty common. Paul. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 18:34:04 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:34:04 -0400 Subject: Identifying bad RAM on Amiga 1000 WCS board Message-ID: Hi, All, I've been doing component-level diagnosis of a bad Amiga 1000 WCS board and since I was unable to find this information anywhere, I thought I'd post it to the list so that it's in the hands of more than one person. For an Amiga 1000 that starts up with a turquoise screen and never asks for Kickstart, it means that the WCS RAM test has failed. Common causes are one or more bad 4464 DRAM chips on the WCS board or a bad PAL. I don't happen to have the PAL equations but I did spend some time with a sick Amiga 1000, a Fluke 9010A and a cheap digital scope. There are hand-drawn schematics floating around but they don't appear to match the production hardware in either part placement or completeness (the schematics describe 2 PALs, DAUGCAS and DAUGEN, but the production hardware has two additional PALs, DPALCAS and DPALEN, for one specific example). If one has a Fluke 9010A and 68000 pod, one can test the WCS RAM by pressing [RUN UUT] and turning on the Amiga and waiting a second or two for the ROMs to set the right memory map bits to make the WCS writable. One can then do simple [READ] and [WRITE] tests to the Amiga at $FC0000-$FFFFFF and even run a [RAM SHORT] on part or all of that range (a RAM SHORT test on 256Kbytes will take more than a few minutes). The memory itself is a bank of 8 4464/50464 64Kx4 DRAMs at U1B-U1E and U2B-U2E, arranged sensibly in two banks of 128Kbytes. The chips in row 2 are the lower half ($FC0000-$FDFFFF) and the chips in row 1 are the upper half ($FE0000-$FFFFFF). The individual bits are arranged as follows: U1E/U2E $000F D0-D3 U1D/U2D $00F0 D4-D7 U1C/U2C $0F00 D8-D11 U1B/U2B $F000 D12-D15 For those that want to trace individual bits the order on each DRAM is pin-3, pin-2, pin-15, pin-17 which is slightly off the given order on the 4464 datasheet of 2,3,15,17. By way of verification, the WCS board I'm repairing failed the RAM test with bad bits at $F000 when I pulled the defective chip from position U1B. The same chip failed testing in a Ming HT-21 "Handy Tester" DIP logic and DRAM tester (but passed when tested as a 4416, because the fault was not in the first 25% of the memory cells). -ethan From Richard.Sheppard at telus.com Sun Apr 29 11:25:00 2018 From: Richard.Sheppard at telus.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:25:00 +0000 Subject: Identifying bad RAM on Amiga 1000 WCS board Message-ID: <8b12fd26e68f454391bf437469d8454d@BTWP000243.corp.ads> > There are hand-drawn schematics floating around but they don't appear > to match the production hardware There is a service manual - "Amiga Computer Model 1000 Preliminary Component Level Repair PN 314038-02" which does show those PALs on page 1-25 "Amiga piggyback PCB assy #327139" Richard Sheppard From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Apr 29 12:28:18 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 13:28:18 -0400 Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer In-Reply-To: <0c4c01d3dd7c$33239710$996ac530$@com> References: <01QRRUZRVEEY000OOC@beyondthepale.ie> <0c4c01d3dd7c$33239710$996ac530$@com> Message-ID: <10ECF701-85E7-4E9F-838E-771795DAF3C3@comcast.net> > On Apr 26, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > Easier solution is to apply some conductive light lube. Radio Shack used to > carry it, and I repaired a LOT of remote controls with it! > > Cindy I made a successful repair. Here are the steps I used: As I mentioned, I tried cleaning with isopropyl alcohol, without much success. I realized that I could test the rubber contact points with a multimeter, probing two spots on the surface. The offending keys had much higher resistance or simply tested open. That made it easier to try other options without having to assemble/disassemble each time. I found a spray can of "contact cleaner/lubricant" and tried that. OOPS. Made it much worse. Looked at the ingredients: one is "mineral oil". Ok, so that's fine for metal wiping contacts I suppose, but not for this. Washed the keypad thoroughly with dishwashing soap and water, then wiped several times with alcohol, that got me back to where I was. Then I realized I still have a tube of powdered graphite (the stuff sometimes used for lubricating locks, though it turns out that's not a good idea. Squirted some onto a Q-tip and rubbed the bad contact pads with that. They look shiny as a result rather than dull black. But it works! So that's the answer: graphite powder. I now have a working analyzer again. It will be interesting to see if the graphite wears off eventually, I suppose it might but that's ok, I can just do it again. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 15:12:36 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:12:36 -0400 Subject: Identifying bad RAM on Amiga 1000 WCS board In-Reply-To: <8b12fd26e68f454391bf437469d8454d@BTWP000243.corp.ads> References: <8b12fd26e68f454391bf437469d8454d@BTWP000243.corp.ads> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 12:25 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: >> There are hand-drawn schematics floating around but they don't appear >> to match the production hardware > > There is a service manual - "Amiga Computer Model 1000 Preliminary Component Level Repair PN 314038-02" which does show those PALs on page 1-25 "Amiga piggyback PCB assy #327139" Examining that carefully, I do see the WCS parts entwined with the mainboard parts on the schematic at the back of the guide. The copy of the scan I have (from archive.org) does not show a Page 1-25. Chapter 1 ends with the keyboards tests on 1-16. I was more referring to a couple of standalone pages with what looks like a different rev of the WCS board. The DRAM chips and associated resistors and, well, most of the parts have different location/ID codes. Googling for "Amiga 327139", I found a reference with the following info: A1000 piggyback board 327139 A1000 piggyback board Rev A 327106-01 This is likely the difference. The standalone "piggyback board" schematics _are_ marked "Rev A" in the comment box. I've also seen pictures of later Amiga 1000s with all the components on the mainboard and no daughtercard, but I've never seen a machine in person like that. -ethan From macro at linux-mips.org Sun Apr 29 17:29:35 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 23:29:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer In-Reply-To: <10ECF701-85E7-4E9F-838E-771795DAF3C3@comcast.net> References: <01QRRUZRVEEY000OOC@beyondthepale.ie> <0c4c01d3dd7c$33239710$996ac530$@com> <10ECF701-85E7-4E9F-838E-771795DAF3C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Apr 2018, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > So that's the answer: graphite powder. I now have a working analyzer > again. It will be interesting to see if the graphite wears off > eventually, I suppose it might but that's ok, I can just do it again. Many years ago I used graphite obtained from a soft pencil to revive rubber keyboard pads and from my observation it wore rather quickly, in particular moving to the surface contact was made against. I wonder if there is a non-industrial way to make graphite stay in place on rubber. Maciej From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 22:44:28 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 04:44:28 +0100 Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer In-Reply-To: References: <01QRRUZRVEEY000OOC@beyondthepale.ie> <0c4c01d3dd7c$33239710$996ac530$@com> <10ECF701-85E7-4E9F-838E-771795DAF3C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 11:29 PM, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 29 Apr 2018, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> So that's the answer: graphite powder. I now have a working analyzer >> again. It will be interesting to see if the graphite wears off >> eventually, I suppose it might but that's ok, I can just do it again. > > Many years ago I used graphite obtained from a soft pencil to revive > rubber keyboard pads and from my observation it wore rather quickly, in > particular moving to the surface contact was made against. I wonder if > there is a non-industrial way to make graphite stay in place on rubber. It's not cheap (and IIRC you have to use the whole lot in one go), but Chemtronics make a kit to repair such keypads. Possibly worth it for a useful instrument though. In the UK you can get it here : https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/conductive-adhesives/3888673/ and I guess it's also available across the Pond. -tony > > Maciej From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 29 22:58:14 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer In-Reply-To: References: <01QRRUZRVEEY000OOC@beyondthepale.ie> <0c4c01d3dd7c$33239710$996ac530$@com> <10ECF701-85E7-4E9F-838E-771795DAF3C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Apr 2018, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > In the UK you can get it here : > https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/conductive-adhesives/3888673/ > and I guess it's also available across the Pond. Silly thought: Half a century ago, there used to be a conductive glue that was peddled to the general [not even owning a soldering iron] public as heat-less solder. If that's still available in any form, would that work? There is some stuff that claims to be a conductive paint: https://www.amazon.com/Bare-Conductive-BarePaint-Paint/dp/B076BSBMK6 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 23:29:16 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 21:29:16 -0700 Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer In-Reply-To: References: <01QRRUZRVEEY000OOC@beyondthepale.ie> <0c4c01d3dd7c$33239710$996ac530$@com> <10ECF701-85E7-4E9F-838E-771795DAF3C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <64590233-58b2-b357-b553-22e444bf7762@sydex.com> On 04/29/2018 08:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > It's not cheap (and IIRC you have to use the whole lot in one go), but > Chemtronics make a kit to repair such keypads. Possibly worth it for > a useful instrument though. > > In the UK you can get it here : > > https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/conductive-adhesives/3888673/ > > and I guess it's also available across the Pond. Does anyone still make aquadag? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 23:37:58 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 21:37:58 -0700 Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer In-Reply-To: References: <01QRRUZRVEEY000OOC@beyondthepale.ie> <0c4c01d3dd7c$33239710$996ac530$@com> <10ECF701-85E7-4E9F-838E-771795DAF3C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: Answered my own question. The repair stuff is called "Aquadag E": https://semicro.org/products/carbon-paint-conductive https://www.ebay.com/itm/AQUADAG-CARBON-PAINT-ARCADE-MONITOR-TV-CRT-CATHODE-REPAIR-SPARES-30-ML-BRUSH-/261808496366 Should work a treat in this application. --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 09:07:19 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 09:07:19 -0500 Subject: Identifying bad RAM on Amiga 1000 WCS board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 6:34 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, All, > > I've been doing component-level diagnosis of a bad Amiga 1000 WCS > board and since I was unable to find this information anywhere, I > thought I'd post it to the list so that it's in the hands of more than > one person. > I wonder if one might be able to use the excellent Diagrom in place of the A1000 ROMs to do some testing. At least then you might be able to put some known patterns into the WCS to read back and see if they make sense. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 09:29:13 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:29:13 -0400 Subject: Identifying bad RAM on Amiga 1000 WCS board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:07 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 6:34 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Hi, All, >> >> I've been doing component-level diagnosis of a bad Amiga 1000 WCS >> board and since I was unable to find this information anywhere, I >> thought I'd post it to the list so that it's in the hands of more than >> one person. > > > I wonder if one might be able to use the excellent Diagrom in place of the > A1000 ROMs to do some testing. When I started debugging these dead A1000s, I took a look at Diagrom... https://github.com/ChuckyGang/DiagROM/blob/master/DiagROM.s There's code in there to handle the A1000 as a separate case, but it seems only to remove features to make it fit in smaller EPROMs, and that is a recent update. The original DiagROM was written for all later machines, without a WCS board. > At least then you might be able to put some known patterns into the WCS to > read back and see if they make sense. One could use the DiagROM as a starting point and _add_ those tests in. I haven't gone over the specifics, but there is some code in the real A1000 ROMs to write enable the WCS board before reading in the Kickstart disk. The exact value to write to which address is documented somewhere but I haven't done any digging to find it. I've just been using the Fluke and running the processor for a few seconds (UUT button) to let the ROMs do their thing, _then_ using the Fluke for RAM tests at $FC0000-$FFFFFF. If I hadn't had the Fluke handy, I'd probably have taken the route of writing some new ROM code to test WCS RAM. Fortunately I also have an old Grammar Engine PromICE so I could plug that into the ROM sockets and do some quick turnover on the code development before burning real EPROMs. -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 09:40:56 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:40:56 -0700 Subject: Anyone have an HP 12661A DVS card manual, 12661-90004? Message-ID: I don't see a manual for the HP 12661A DVS (Digital Voltage Source) interface card on bitsavers, or hpmuseum.net, or anywhere else. The only reference I have found is in a list of not scanned manuals here: http://rikers.org/hp2100/jeff/iocards/iocards2.txt ---------- 12661 DIG VOLT SOURCE ---------- MANUAL FOR DIGITAL VOLTAGE SOURCE PROGRAMMER INTERFACE KIT HP 12661A MANUAL NO. 12661-90004 APRIL 1971 [Cards #12661-6001 and 12661-6002, connector 02116-6178] This is the interface card that would be used in an HP 1000 to control an HP 6130A Digital Voltage Source. See Hewlett-Packard Journal, June 1968. There is the 14902A BCS driver as listed in 5950-9226_HP_Software_Catalog_Aug1973.pdf Source code for that driver is available as 14902-80001_Rev-A.src in the bitsavers HP_1000_software_collection Master Files, Type 4. Mainly just curious because I have a couple of HP 12661A interface cards without manuals that I have never tried to use and I was reminded about them when an HP 6130A made a brief appearance in Marc's latest Weird Stuff video. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Apr 30 10:24:31 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 17:24:31 +0200 Subject: Identifying bad RAM on Amiga 1000 WCS board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180430152431.5kqpaws2oemnbb3e@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:29:13AM -0400, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > [...] The exact value to write to which address is documented somewhere but I > haven't done any digging to find it. I've just been using the Fluke and > running the processor for a few seconds (UUT button) to let the ROMs do their > thing, _then_ using the Fluke for RAM tests at $FC0000-$FFFFFF. I disassembled the A1000 boot ROM recently. There's a lot of interesting debugging cruft left in there, otherwise it could have fitted on a smaller chip. As far as I can tell from the code, a 68000 RESET sets the latch such that F80000-FBFFFF contains the boot ROM and FC0000-FFFFFF is the writable WCS. A *write* to F80000 (and probably any other address up to FBFFFF) flips the latch such that the WCS is write-protected and is mirrored throughout the region F80000-FFFFFF. Playing with the UAE debugger confirms this theory is correct for it, but I don't own a suitable hardware debugger to test on my real A1000. Without a debugger, one could also build a Zorro-I board for the edge slot which presents a debug ROM at F00000-F7FFFF, and provided it starts with the right magic number, will be executed with the WCS still write-enabled. (The CDTV puts its CD-ROM driver and fancy animated boot screen in that space.) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 11:08:32 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:08:32 -0400 Subject: Identifying bad RAM on Amiga 1000 WCS board In-Reply-To: <20180430152431.5kqpaws2oemnbb3e@mooli.org.uk> References: <20180430152431.5kqpaws2oemnbb3e@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:29:13AM -0400, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> [...] The exact value to write to which address is documented somewhere but I >> haven't done any digging to find it. I've just been using the Fluke and >> running the processor for a few seconds (UUT button) to let the ROMs do their >> thing, _then_ using the Fluke for RAM tests at $FC0000-$FFFFFF. > > I disassembled the A1000 boot ROM recently. Hi, Peter, Cool. I've always wondered what's in there (but not enough to do the work myself ;-) > There's a lot of interesting > debugging cruft left in there, otherwise it could have fitted on a smaller > chip. There probably wasn't any point to worrying about making it fit. I'm sure the time pressure was far too great to let them spend extra time trimming that stuff out. > As far as I can tell from the code, a 68000 RESET sets the latch such that > F80000-FBFFFF contains the boot ROM and FC0000-FFFFFF is the writable WCS. That makes perfect sense. The boot ROM is echoed throughout the memory map (from my exploration), including $000000, which is typical for any 68000 system, but at many other address ranges too. What I've been doing to use the Fluke for testing WCS RAM is to power up the Fluke (pod must have power before being attached to computer), plug the pod into the 68000 socket, hit [RUN UUT] on the Fluke, which responds with "UUT POWER FAIL -ATTEMPTING RESET", then power on the A1000. At that point, the A1000 runs code from the boot ROMs, blinks the power light, then hangs while displaying a turquoise screen (because of the bad RAM). The ROMs leave the WCS writeable and I do my tests. > A > *write* to F80000 (and probably any other address up to FBFFFF) flips the latch > such that the WCS is write-protected and is mirrored throughout the region > F80000-FFFFFF. Playing with the UAE debugger confirms this theory is correct > for it, but I don't own a suitable hardware debugger to test on my real A1000. I have a Fluke 9010A and will be soldering in the replacement RAM chip today (I found it in a box of spares I got when my local Commodore dealer closed up shop). I can easily test writing to $F80000 and other addresses to test. It also seems to me to be handy to look at building a clip-on diagnostic LED to show the state of that flip-flop. Not essential, but would be interesting to watch. > Without a debugger, one could also build a Zorro-I board for the edge slot > which presents a debug ROM at F00000-F7FFFF, and provided it starts with the > right magic number, will be executed with the WCS still write-enabled. Hmm... interesting thought. Presumably one could also easily put a textual LCD on it so no matter what state the custom chips are in, it could still display text as long as the bus wasn't totally bunged up, but if it were that bad, it wouldn't be running code anyway. -ethan P.S. - I found another A1000 looking for parts for this one... so now I definitely have more things to test. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 30 12:19:40 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:19:40 -0700 Subject: Anyone have an HP 12661A DVS card manual, 12661-90004? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <890aae6d-63d6-7af0-6c78-5c5e3d4c4c7f@bitsavers.org> I'm trying to pull together the HP paper I still have and will put it on the list of things to look for. Unfortunately, it didn't get scanned from the Crisis Computer manual collection in 2005 since I had assumed I had already scanned the interface cards. It's likely it is in the boxes of manuals I got from Sam Wood and those are near the front of the paper I'm going through right now. On 4/30/18 7:40 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > ---------- 12661 DIG VOLT SOURCE ---------- > MANUAL FOR DIGITAL VOLTAGE SOURCE PROGRAMMER > INTERFACE KIT HP 12661A > MANUAL NO. 12661-90004 > APRIL 1971 > [Cards #12661-6001 and 12661-6002, connector 02116-6178] From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 12:20:43 2018 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:20:43 -0500 Subject: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP)) In-Reply-To: <24cbf3bc-efca-b755-459c-6780124c079c@snowmoose.com> References: <349fa144-8148-844d-2852-d314870ec066@snowmoose.com> <24cbf3bc-efca-b755-459c-6780124c079c@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 5:40 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I keep them all. Not counting the bad ones in the SS1 and 2, I have 7. > > I can send them to you. I don't mind pick up the shipping costs for > something small like that. But the $70 that is it going to cost to ship the > SS20 to its new home is another matter. > > alan > > On 4/27/18 3:33 PM, systems_glitch wrote: > >> You can always send me the dead modules and I'll rebuild them >> (GlitchWorks == me, my wife sometimes helps with assembly). Whatever you >> do, don't throw out the dead NVRAMs -- I'll buy them or pay for you to ship >> them or whatever, they're not making more and they're the only solution >> that's 100% compatible. >> >> Yeah, the "still works but pukes errors" is the typical symptom of the >> newer, slightly incompatible 48T02s in Sun machines. I don't recall if mine >> kept accurate time with the newer modules. >> >> Thanks, >> Jonathan >> >> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org > wrote: >> >> The ones from Mouser work well enough in every system that I have >> used them in. I still get the IDPROM corrupt message on boot on >> some systems, but it holds the MAC and the systems boot without >> intervention. >> >> I tried to repair a few and botched most of them. I know that I >> should be using the GlitchWorks stuff, but it has been easier to >> just buy something that I can plug in. >> >> alan >> >> >> On 4/27/18 3:15 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: >> >> Don't get the new MK48T02/MK48T08s from Mouser et al, they're >> not fully >> compatible. They will retain NVRAM but the clock part is >> different and >> you'll get an error on that (system won't autoboot). Rebuild >> your old >> NVRAM! I made up some little boards to make the repair cleaner >> and faster >> to do (I had about 50 NVRAMs to repair): >> >> http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1 >> >> >> There are other guides for tacking on a coin cell holder >> without cutting >> off the entire top encapsulation, but if you do that, it may >> not fit under >> SBus cards if you're doing it on a system that puts SBus slots >> over the >> NVRAM. >> >> Thanks, >> Jonathan >> >> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org > wrote: >> >> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk >> > wrote: >> >> - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad >> IDPROM; aside from that >> it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no >> HDD now, and a 3.5" >> floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the >> IDPROM, it doesn't >> have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). >> Like the SS2, it >> needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover >> over the rear of the >> case is broken off. >> >> What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are >> around $25 on Mouser. >> SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD >> are $60 plus >> shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of >> 25 year old HDDs >> >> with >> >> a stated service life of 5 years (according to one >> spec sheet that I >> >> read), >> >> SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive. >> >> When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery >> NVRAM type of >> thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the >> currently >> available versions of those new at Mouser fully >> compatible? Those are >> one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully >> compatible with the old versions for some systems, even >> though they >> are supposed to be. >> >> My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much >> demand for those >> it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around >> to doing >> anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem >> to be a lot >> less common, and maybe more collectible. >> > Last year some time I replaced the timekeeper in my first SPARC with one I ordered off eBay. It's been a while since I tried it in that machine* but, last I knew, it was slow at keeping time but time was still moving forward, and it hadn't lost its MAC or hostid. Would that be caused by it being one of the newer not-100%-compatible ones? Alternately, I read somewhere that timekeeper/NVRAM/IDPROM chips need to either have power available to them most of the time or need to have the computer powered up regularly (not sure which it was) -- is there any truth to either of those? * I did try the "new" timekeeper in a newer SPARC acquisition of mine a week or so ago, because I knew the new workstation's battery was bad. Unfortunately the computer failed to give any monitor signal when I did that, and I haven't had a chance to hook it up via serial to see what's working and what isn't. I wonder if that could be another failure mode of those chips, or if it just means the workstation's not quite working (I was told that it had just been booted recently using its original IDPROM, but defaults had to be set at boot; I also haven't gotten a chance to try the original IDPROM in it to see what would happen.) -- Eric Christopherson From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 30 12:22:58 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:22:58 -0700 Subject: Anyone have an HP 12661A DVS card manual, 12661-90004? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <313ec12f-709b-bac1-28e0-ad21daf426a4@bitsavers.org> On 4/30/18 7:40 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > The only reference I have found is in a list of not scanned manuals here: > > http://rikers.org/hp2100/jeff/iocards/iocards2.txt If it doesn't turn up in what I have, I'll check with Jeff to see if he still has it. It's a little weird to see his old web site turn up somewhere else. I don't think he would have had any reason to get rid of the paper. It was in his attic the last time I saw it (early 00's) From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Apr 30 12:51:54 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:51:54 -0700 Subject: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP)) In-Reply-To: References: <349fa144-8148-844d-2852-d314870ec066@snowmoose.com> <24cbf3bc-efca-b755-459c-6780124c079c@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <8a3df228-f855-0efe-fef1-e90bbf14bd1c@snowmoose.com> On 4/30/18 10:20 AM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 5:40 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I keep them all. Not counting the bad ones in the SS1 and 2, I have 7. >> >> I can send them to you. I don't mind pick up the shipping costs for >> something small like that. But the $70 that is it going to cost to ship the >> SS20 to its new home is another matter. >> >> alan >> >> On 4/27/18 3:33 PM, systems_glitch wrote: >> >>> You can always send me the dead modules and I'll rebuild them >>> (GlitchWorks == me, my wife sometimes helps with assembly). Whatever you >>> do, don't throw out the dead NVRAMs -- I'll buy them or pay for you to ship >>> them or whatever, they're not making more and they're the only solution >>> that's 100% compatible. >>> >>> Yeah, the "still works but pukes errors" is the typical symptom of the >>> newer, slightly incompatible 48T02s in Sun machines. I don't recall if mine >>> kept accurate time with the newer modules. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jonathan >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org > wrote: >>> >>> The ones from Mouser work well enough in every system that I have >>> used them in. I still get the IDPROM corrupt message on boot on >>> some systems, but it holds the MAC and the systems boot without >>> intervention. >>> >>> I tried to repair a few and botched most of them. I know that I >>> should be using the GlitchWorks stuff, but it has been easier to >>> just buy something that I can plug in. >>> >>> alan >>> >>> >>> On 4/27/18 3:15 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Don't get the new MK48T02/MK48T08s from Mouser et al, they're >>> not fully >>> compatible. They will retain NVRAM but the clock part is >>> different and >>> you'll get an error on that (system won't autoboot). Rebuild >>> your old >>> NVRAM! I made up some little boards to make the repair cleaner >>> and faster >>> to do (I had about 50 NVRAMs to repair): >>> >>> http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1 >>> >>> >>> There are other guides for tacking on a coin cell holder >>> without cutting >>> off the entire top encapsulation, but if you do that, it may >>> not fit under >>> SBus cards if you're doing it on a system that puts SBus slots >>> over the >>> NVRAM. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jonathan >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org > wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk >>> > wrote: >>> >>> - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad >>> IDPROM; aside from that >>> it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no >>> HDD now, and a 3.5" >>> floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the >>> IDPROM, it doesn't >>> have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). >>> Like the SS2, it >>> needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover >>> over the rear of the >>> case is broken off. >>> >>> What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are >>> around $25 on Mouser. >>> SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD >>> are $60 plus >>> shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of >>> 25 year old HDDs >>> >>> with >>> >>> a stated service life of 5 years (according to one >>> spec sheet that I >>> >>> read), >>> >>> SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive. >>> >>> When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery >>> NVRAM type of >>> thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the >>> currently >>> available versions of those new at Mouser fully >>> compatible? Those are >>> one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully >>> compatible with the old versions for some systems, even >>> though they >>> are supposed to be. >>> >>> My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much >>> demand for those >>> it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around >>> to doing >>> anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem >>> to be a lot >>> less common, and maybe more collectible. >>> > Last year some time I replaced the timekeeper in my first SPARC with one I > ordered off eBay. It's been a while since I tried it in that machine* but, > last I knew, it was slow at keeping time but time was still moving forward, > and it hadn't lost its MAC or hostid. Would that be caused by it being one > of the newer not-100%-compatible ones? Alternately, I read somewhere that > timekeeper/NVRAM/IDPROM chips need to either have power available to them > most of the time or need to have the computer powered up regularly (not > sure which it was) -- is there any truth to either of those? > > * I did try the "new" timekeeper in a newer SPARC acquisition of mine a > week or so ago, because I knew the new workstation's battery was bad. > Unfortunately the computer failed to give any monitor signal when I did > that, and I haven't had a chance to hook it up via serial to see what's > working and what isn't. I wonder if that could be another failure mode of > those chips, or if it just means the workstation's not quite working (I was > told that it had just been booted recently using its original IDPROM, but > defaults had to be set at boot; I also haven't gotten a chance to try the > original IDPROM in it to see what would happen.) Jonathan the GlitchWorks guy has better experience with this than I do, but I have new M48T02s/M48T08s from Mouser in all of the systems that I have had to replace them in.? That would be in SPARCstation 1+, 5, 20, IPC, IPX, Classic, and LX. They have worked good enough for me, but I only occasionally power them on (which is why I was happy that VCF gave me an excuse use them and network them all together). I retrofitted an external battery to the one in my Axil 320, but never found a satisfactory way to fix the battery in place. After I finish clearing out the SPARCs that came from Pete's place, I will be giving the Axil some attention and may go ahead and GlitchWorks it (since I am out of M48T08s to just grab out if the tube). alan From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 30 18:40:39 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:40:39 -0500 Subject: New cooling cans for 80386 and 80486 Message-ID: <00d501d3e0dc$a5dc46e0$f194d4a0$@com> We bought these years ago in bulk. Turns out there are 78 left! New 40mm fans on a 50mm base. https://www.elecshopper.com/fans-and-heatsinks/silent-systems-fan-40-01154-4 .html Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 30 21:54:38 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 22:54:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay search fail Message-ID: <20180501025438.D3D5518C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So someone mentioned this to me: https://www.ebay.com/itm/222941705847 Now, the crazy thing is that I religously do a search for "PDP-11" for newly listed items on eBait at least once a day - and this never showed up! I just did a search for sold "PDP-11" items, and it's not showing up there either - although a search for sold "PDP-11 parts" turns it up! Anyone have any idea why it didn't turn up? That is a regular '-', not an mdash or anything, and those are 1's, not lower-case l's. And it does show up in the search for "PDP-11 parts". So I can only conclude that somehow eBait's search function blew out somehow? Anyway, someone got a total steal: at least _3_ H960's, a TU10, and an -11/45 (can't tell if there's an FP11) - and who knows what else is hidden! Noel From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Apr 30 22:20:51 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 03:20:51 +0000 Subject: eBay search fail In-Reply-To: <20180501025438.D3D5518C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180501025438.D3D5518C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I search only for "PDP" (not -11) but I filter on category "Computers/tablets & Networking." It might not have shown up in your search if you searching in "Vintage Computing" category. This one looks like it wasn't listed there -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Monday, April 30, 2018 10:55 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: eBay search fail So someone mentioned this to me: https://www.ebay.com/itm/222941705847 Now, the crazy thing is that I religously do a search for "PDP-11" for newly listed items on eBait at least once a day - and this never showed up! I just did a search for sold "PDP-11" items, and it's not showing up there either - although a search for sold "PDP-11 parts" turns it up! Anyone have any idea why it didn't turn up? That is a regular '-', not an mdash or anything, and those are 1's, not lower-case l's. And it does show up in the search for "PDP-11 parts". So I can only conclude that somehow eBait's search function blew out somehow? Anyway, someone got a total steal: at least _3_ H960's, a TU10, and an -11/45 (can't tell if there's an FP11) - and who knows what else is hidden! Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 22:41:38 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 23:41:38 -0400 Subject: eBay search fail In-Reply-To: References: <20180501025438.D3D5518C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I think "crap on a cracker" is fitting expression here. A few hours drive from me too. Wow. Hope it found a good home. b On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:20 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > I search only for "PDP" (not -11) but I filter on category > "Computers/tablets & Networking." It might not have shown up in your search > if you searching in "Vintage Computing" category. This one looks like it > wasn't listed there > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa via cctalk > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2018 10:55 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: eBay search fail > > So someone mentioned this to me: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/222941705847 > > Now, the crazy thing is that I religously do a search for "PDP-11" for > newly listed items on eBait at least once a day - and this never showed up! > I just did a search for sold "PDP-11" items, and it's not showing up there > either - although a search for sold "PDP-11 parts" turns it up! > > Anyone have any idea why it didn't turn up? That is a regular '-', not an > mdash or anything, and those are 1's, not lower-case l's. And it does show > up in the search for "PDP-11 parts". So I can only conclude that somehow > eBait's search function blew out somehow? > > Anyway, someone got a total steal: at least _3_ H960's, a TU10, and an > -11/45 (can't tell if there's an FP11) - and who knows what else is hidden! > > Noel > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 23:39:34 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 00:39:34 -0400 Subject: Identifying bad RAM on Amiga 1000 WCS board In-Reply-To: References: <20180430152431.5kqpaws2oemnbb3e@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk > wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:29:13AM -0400, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >>> [...] The exact value to write to which address is documented somewhere.... > >> As far as I can tell from the code, a 68000 RESET sets the latch such that >> F80000-FBFFFF contains the boot ROM and FC0000-FFFFFF is the writable WCS. Yep. Confirmed with the Fluke. You can write any value to $F000 000A and the pod will reset the processor, which _does_ enable the WCS RAM for writes. >> A >> *write* to F80000 (and probably any other address up to FBFFFF) flips the latch >> such that the WCS is write-protected and is mirrored throughout the region >> F80000-FFFFFF. Confirmed with the real hardware. A write to any address from $F80000 through $FBFFFE does flip the WCS write-protect latch and does mirror WCS at $F80000 > I have a Fluke 9010A and will be soldering in the replacement RAM chip > today Replacement 41464 installed. Fluke tests pass! All the RAM is good! The Amiga won't boot to Kickstart with the Fluke in place (there are known effects of having the pod in place of a real CPU, including a 15ns delay on everything) but with the original CPU in the socket, it boots right up to the Kickstart screen now. -ethan From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 22:45:29 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 23:45:29 -0400 Subject: PDP 8i in NJ on Ebay Message-ID: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pdp-8i-Computer-With-Tape-Readers/253588804132 I went to check this out....this is they guy with 10 PDP 8i's in a barn. Looks like he cleaned one up. I have more pictures on my web site, I had posted them here before, but I thought they were overpriced http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2016/PDP8i/ b