From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Oct 22 12:10:44 2017 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 13:10:44 -0400 Subject: RT11 Disk Partitioning and RQZX1 SCSI controller In-Reply-To: References: <16e5e2d2-99e5-d4e1-366b-b2e8dbb3371d@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/20/2017 6:46 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: > On 10/19/17, 6:22 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Douglas Taylor via cctalk" > wrote: > >> Is there a potential problem here? >> >> I have an 11/53 microPDP11 with a RQZX1 controller connected to a single >> DEC DSP3043 drive (535MB) and a single RX33 floppy. >> >> The autoconfigure setup in the RQZX1 puts the hard disk at DU0 and the >> Floppy as DU1. OK. I boot RT11 from the disk, V5.7. Works fine. >> >> I would like to use some of the extra space on the disk by setting up >> RT11 disk partitions. >> >> However, one of the partitions is DU1, but that is what the Floppy is >> called. How do I stay away from what seems like a conflict? >> >> Doug > SET DU2: UNIT=0,PART=1 > SET DU3: UNIT=0,PART=2 > ... > > ** reboot ** > > INIT DU2: > INIT DU3: > ... > > Thanks, it did work. I'll just stay away from DU1:.? I forgot about the reboot required for these changes to take effect. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 21 05:40:13 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 11:40:13 +0100 Subject: Cloning A Hard Disk Over The Network Using Ultrix Message-ID: <000501d34a58$fa4f8810$eeee9830$@ntlworld.com> I have a couple of hard disks I want to make dd copies of. I have Ultrix running on my DECstation 5000/240 with the disk I want to clone attached to it. The trouble is that I don't have enough disk space on the machine to clone the disk and then grab the image using FTP. I have been trying to find a way to pipe the dd output over the network to a SIMH Ultrix machine that has plenty of disk space. I tried piping dd into rcp, but rcp doesn't seem to take input from standard input. I have looked at cpio, but that too appears not to accept input from standard input. Unix is not my strong point. Are there any other ways I could pipe the dd output across the network to a machine that has enough disk space? Thanks Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 21 00:43:47 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 22:43:47 -0700 Subject: HP 7907 read preamp question In-Reply-To: <59E93C96.5030902@pico-systems.com> References: <5012ecd8-1aa4-a26c-2391-10c9731e5338@sydex.com> <59E93C96.5030902@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 10/19/2017 05:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/19/2017 06:44 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> My question for those knowledgeable with this drive is what's the >> downside of adjusting the gain to create an output of, say, 7V P-P? >> >> > Well, you might have to turn it back down for newly recorded tapes. But, > if you are using it only for recovery of old data, maybe no downside at > all. > > But, there are so many defects in old tapes.? There's print-through, > wrinkles from the tape pack scrunching, weave, oxide flaking, dirt > buildup, and maybe some others. No, it turns out the answer is to set the preamp gain at spec. It appears to do nothing but create more problems if turned up higher than that. It was worth a try. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Oct 20 22:26:13 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 22:26:13 -0500 Subject: C64 to a good home In-Reply-To: References: <0ba701d34619$b5ed2260$21c76720$@internode.on.net> <201710160211.v9G2BeNL5767190@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Hey Kevin. This is all good advice, but there is also another way to go - and it's a bit more future-proof. For about the same cost as the Zoom floppy, you can get a device called an SD2IEC or similar. It's very simple - it connects to the IEC (disk drive) port on the C-64 and accepts a micro or mini SD card. This way you only need copy your C-64 titles to SD card (any way you like) and they will be accessible to the C-64. The device behaves like a 1541 / 1571 drive. I say the SD2IEC is future proof, as it doesn't rely on original 15X1 disk drives or 5-1/2" media, all of which could go away someday. Now _personally_ I use a home-built XM1541 cable with opencbm (free/OSS) to transfer my images to genuine 5-1.4" disk. I only do this as I'm too cheap / broke to buy something else like the SD2IEC. It is exceptionally stable and reliable - once set up, it "just works". Though if you a) run Linux and b) accept a kernel update you will need to c) recompile & re-install opencbm as the module is built specific to the running kernel. This takes only seconds, literally. -Bill On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 7:48 AM, Robert via cctalk wrote: > I recently bought a ZoomFloppy from here: http://store.go4retro.com/ > zoomfloppy/ > > I got the version with an IEEE488 conector, for use with a PET, but it > also supports the serial interface used on the C64. > > On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 9:11 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk > wrote: > >> There are some online repositories of C64 software. Having only a little > >> knowledge when it comes to C64_s how do I get a C64 disk > >> image onto a 5 1/4_ floppy? > > > > I use a ZoomFloppy and a real 1541 (actually a 1571). These devices are > > available from many places; Jim Brain built mine, or you can look for any > > xu1541 or xum1541-type device and use OpenCBM to copy that floppy. > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > > -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Moonraker" ------------------------------ > ---------- > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Oct 20 22:23:33 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 23:23:33 -0400 Subject: HP 21mx/whatever processor works with doublesided key... i forgot model# Message-ID: <129de9.9f5cfb4.471c17b5@aol.com> NOPE NOT A BIG RTE PERSON - BUT YES THERE WOULD BE MULTI SERIAL BOARDS IN SOME INCOMING PROCESSORS RAN IT ONCE AND PLAYED WITH IT... BROKE 1000 SYSTEMS DOWN AND SOLD THE PIECES. THE ONLY SYSTEMS THAT WE SUPPORTED SOFTWARE WISE WERE F AND THEN ACCESS THIS 21 WHATEVER IS THE SKINNY ONE! DOUBLE SIDED KEY - AND IF I REMEMBER WILL YANK IT UP OFF THE FLOOR IN MY OFFICE TOMORROW AND SEE THE # BUT SUSPECT 2108 AS ABOUT ALL I REMEMBER LIKING ABOUT IT WAS IT HAD THE BOOT BUILT IN ,GRIN!. WHAT I DID NOT LIKE WAS IT WAS NOT CORE MEMORY. SURE WERE FUN TIMES... ALTHOUGH THERE WAS ALWAYS A FOND SPOT FOR THE 21XX STUFF... I GOT REALLY OCCUPIED WITH THE 3000 AS A COMPUTER THAT I WOULD REALLY USE. IN THE EARLY DAYS OF RUNNING THE ACCESS THOUGH WHAT GREAT FUN AND THE 100 BOARD BBS/MULTI USER CHAT/VOTE AND POL/EMAIL AND MOST GAMES WE DID GOT MOVED TO THE 3000. ED - WHOSE KEYBOARD THINKS IT IS AN ASR 35 TELETYPE SO THAT IS HOW THE REST OF THE MESSAGE GOT FININSHED In a message dated 10/20/2017 7:37:48 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: Ed wrote... ------ HP 21mx/whatever processor works with double sided key... (I forgot model#) ------ Given the way you phrased it, the correct replacement for 'whatever' is M series. E and F never used the double sided key. However, even that is not entirely correct. Older M's used the double sided key. Later M's used the single sided key that is the same as the E and F. And.... ------- It has ... of all things 3 tty boards in it? what is with that? Multi user without a mux? ------- Didn't you sell and support these things in a prior life? It was always far more common to see the 21MX machines with 'discrete' tty boards rather than muxes. There were only two mux boards, the one in 2000/Access which was very uncommon as far as 21mx's go... and the one that RTE commonly used which was also not super common to find in the wild. If you had a mux board, then I would have been a bit surprised. Multiple tty boards? Not surprised, that was the far more common thing.... more often than not, the 21mx's weren't really used/targeted for multiuser (except 2000 TSB of course). RTE did multiuser well, but... still was probably most often used in situations that really didn't require it. Mux's weren't super common. And.... -------- Has 2 memory boards think I remember 64k total. -------- 64kb or 64kw? Remember, the M.E.M. option is required to support more than 32kw. On the M, MEM was optional. I believe it was standard on E & F. And... ------- need to find a paper tape basic to play with. ------- There are plenty of those floating around. Google is your friend... I think MU-BASIC may have been the one I heard people using? See below for a better option.... And... ------ Any other advice? ------ You should probably start by reading an introduction to the 21MX to get some basic background on the machines... Go to: http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=108 You should start with 02108-90004 followed by 02108-90002 Finally - for you (and anyone else) that has just a cpu or a cpu and minimal peripherals, the best thing you can use to play with the machine is Terry Newtons HP-IPL/OS. See http://www.infionline.net/~wtnewton/oldcomp/hp2100/ and http://newton.freehostia.com/net/hpiplos.html Yes, you can run BASIC like you mention above. But it is a very well done "Forth-like" system that is well developed/flushedout. So in addition to BASIC, you get oh-so-many-wonderful-things. I very highly recommend that anyone messing with 21mx/1000 systems take a good look at HP-IPL/OS. Best, J From ama at ugr.es Sun Oct 22 03:13:00 2017 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel M Alganza) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 10:13:00 +0200 Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171022081300.GA6054@morgan.ugr.es> Hello: On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 01:39:32PM -0600, (Yes, almost two years ago. I'm a bit behind with my mail, LOL.) Eric Christopherson wrote: > I'm considering doing something that actually > downloads my Gmail content locally and keeps it > in sync periodically, but I haven't really > looked at what's necessary for that. Have a look at mbsync/isync if you still haven't done anything about it on those two years. LOL It does exactly what you wanted. Cheers, ?ngel From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Oct 20 22:24:28 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 23:24:28 -0400 Subject: HP 21mx/whatever processor works with doublesided key... i forgot model# Message-ID: <129e62.20e31a8e.471c17eb@aol.com> IT RUNS MEMORY RESIDENT LOADED FROM PAPER TAPE? ED# In a message dated 10/20/2017 7:37:48 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: "Forth-like" system that is well developed/flushedout. So in addition to BASIC, you get oh-so-many-wonderful-things. I very highly recommend that anyone messing with 21mx/1000 systems take a good look at HP-IPL/OS. From pb at pbcl.net Sat Oct 21 13:31:16 2017 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 19:31:16 +0100 Subject: Fujitsu M2235S Message-ID: <1508610676.32728.11.camel@pbcl.net> Anybody familiar with the internals of these disks? I have one here which seems to have the positioner stuck at track zero. I'm not sure whether it's likely to be just a bit sticky and in need of some assistance or whether there is some sort of latch involved, and I am a bit reluctant to just pull the lid off the chamber to find out. Thanks Phil From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Oct 21 01:58:41 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 01:58:41 -0500 Subject: Giving away my collection to someone just starting out in the hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, I don't think I qualify to receive the whole shebang, nor would I have room, but I will gladly take any box(es) un-tested / for parts / etc. C-64 hardware that you would care to offer. I endeavor to repair CBM machines, primarily C-64s and peripherals, and I am basically out of parts. I have almost a dozen machines stacked up that can't run for want of various parts... I'm in St. Paul, MN, and unable to work due to total disability (stage 5 kidney disease. among other things). Best, Bill Layer On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:25 AM, Digital Aeon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > After many years of collecting, Im tired of moving it all > > So ive picked out 4 or 5 systems that mean alot to me. And i want to > pass the rest of the collection onto someone starting out in the hobby that > wouldnt otherwise have the funds to get some of the stuff I have. > > So if there is anyone out there starting out and wants what I have I will > gladly hand it over to them free of charge. I would like to see this go > to someone who doesn't have anything. > > > I have apple, commodore, sun, x86 you name it I got it. about 4 > truckloads full if not more. > > Im located in Mid Michigan > > Steve > From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Oct 21 02:01:10 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 02:01:10 -0500 Subject: Giving away my collection to someone just starting out in the hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: @All I cant believe I fat-fingered not one but two on-list replies when I meant to send one off-list reply. Sorry about that.Trying to type from a hosp bed, had a broken hip that didn't heal and needed multiple surgeries. Been in for almost two months. -Bill On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 1:58 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Steve, > > I don't think I qualify to receive the whole shebang, nor would I have > room, but I will gladly take any box(es) un-tested / for parts / etc. C-64 > hardware that you would care to offer. > > I endeavor to repair CBM machines, primarily C-64s and peripherals, and I > am basically out of parts. I have almost a dozen machines stacked up that > can't run for want of various parts... > > I'm in St. Paul, MN, and unable to work due to total disability (stage 5 > kidney disease. among other things). > > Best, > Bill Layer > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:25 AM, Digital Aeon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> After many years of collecting, Im tired of moving it all >> >> So ive picked out 4 or 5 systems that mean alot to me. And i want to >> pass the rest of the collection onto someone starting out in the hobby >> that >> wouldnt otherwise have the funds to get some of the stuff I have. >> >> So if there is anyone out there starting out and wants what I have I will >> gladly hand it over to them free of charge. I would like to see this go >> to someone who doesn't have anything. >> >> >> I have apple, commodore, sun, x86 you name it I got it. about 4 >> truckloads full if not more. >> >> Im located in Mid Michigan >> >> Steve >> > > From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Oct 20 20:00:16 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 03:00:16 +0200 Subject: DEC Emulation Website In-Reply-To: <4D620786-734B-44F4-BD65-687F363B04B4@avanthar.com> References: <4D620786-734B-44F4-BD65-687F363B04B4@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <20171021010016.GB21770@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, Oct 08, 2017 at 03:36:00PM -0700, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > While it?s still in need of a major update, the DEC Emulation > website now has a new home. It?s now on my server, and > realistically I should have moved it years ago. > > http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/decemu.html Cool, thank you. > Believe it or not, I am planning to update the pages in the near > future, who knows, I might even modernize them a little. When I > started them, one of the design goals was that they be readable with > Lynx. I?m not sure how important that is anymore. :-) I have browsed it just few moments ago with lynx, emacs-w3 and my new textual favourite, elinks (it multitabs!! and shows tables!! and I could play with configuration a lot, so on 256-colors-enabled term it looks a bit nicer to my eyes). In all them, and in some old graphical one, the site looks decently. As of "modernisation"... You know, just MHO and stuff but sometimes when I see modern pages it seems like their creators have had been abducted to some sect and brainwashed clean. I have 1600x1200 and I like to have some other window besides browser (say, an editor, like emacs). So I open such page, and the browser has about 3/5 of estate and I am not going fullscreen, no way. And there is huge menu on the left side, so I can choose. And there is some (expletive0) "top bar", all white and empty, or maybe with page title (I already have one (expletive0) title on a title bar of browser window), then there is (expletive0) bottom bar, all empty. And for a text, there is area left which is about five to ten (expletive0) lines high. There is no (expletive0) way to make those (expletive0) elements go the (subseq (expletive0) 0 4) away. The last resort is to turn styles off, which quite often gives me almost the view that I would like to have, plus (quite often) a parade of (expletive0) leftovers from the leftside menu, which after switch takes more than 90% of (expletive0) web page. I swear I do not make this up. The usable part of the modern webpage is on average the (expletive0) ten percent, as measured by scrollbar - and sometimes even less. The only reason I keep using very old Opera 1x.x is because it: A) does not multithread (so when I load heavily crapped page, it only (subseq (expletive0) 0 4)s with one core of my cpu max, rather then (expletive0) with me fulltime B) is able to show very decently a page with styles turned off; this also sometimes means lowering core usage by half (the usage which is there even when (expletive0) browser is expected to sit on its (expletive1) and do nothing). C) I turned a lot of CSS off by default, but I am not quite sure if this really works (software, trust, does not compute) - and I put fixed/monotype fonts wherever I can see them, because I love the idea that space is same width as "i" and "W". So all the job done to max my pleasure with downloadable fonts is lost, and (expletive0) good for me. I have tried switching to Firefox, but somehow having eighty tabs does not work very nicely there, for me at least. But I launch it when there is something that poor Op cannot render properly. Overally, I have few browsers opened as day goes by, one for Common Lisp docs, another for casual reading, one for sci articles heavy with equations and gfx (mostly up-to date rendering 'gine), few text browsers for interesting stuff, books or longer reads etc. I have recently started to experiment with Dillo - this is very nice piece of (expletive2), recommended to everybody even if it not always shows things, kind of like text browser with graphics (sometimes) and multitabs. Perhaps will also try "old new" Mosaic - the old one got lost during innumerable system upgrades. As I could have observed, plenty of people out there think that "modern" means "optimised for mobile", but what does it mean in practise? The text, i.e. useful part of the page might take 10 kilobytes (optimist, me, always), there might be even useful pictures on it, and then there goes a (expletive2)load of javascript. Megabyte is a, kind of, norm. So, this (expletive2) eats my download/upload quota, for which I pay (in theory, because I never was in such position). And then it starts running and eats from my battery, which can be loaded for peanuts, but who wants to recharge every few hours - this is supposed to give me mobility, but not to/from wallsocket. Which is how I came to brainwashing - the words being used are redefined. Optimised no longer means what it used to mean. Now it just means conformance to some group's standard. Optimised for pats in a back, just not from enduser (some endusers dream of packing boot deep into webdevel's (expletive1) and leaving it there, and the second boot would go to their halfbrained tasteless boss'es (expletive1), only deeper). For me, "optimised for mobile" is something like HTML1.0, or maybe even 3.0 (if this is when tables were defined). And "modern" is unimportant, if a goal is information retrieval. If you (or anybody) plan to upgrade your webpage, please consider doing it like XIX century guy, just barely after computer lessons. Text is everything. Because this is how information is being transmitted. Pictures are few, and if they are there, there must be a purpose (like, they too convey some information somehow related to text). So this is my opinion on modern web design, and mind you, I am not using it on a cell phone, but on something as big as two A4 pages, and the (expletive0) web cannot do very well on such (expletive0) huge area, or significant part of it. What are "they" using for making their creations - a monitor wall? I cannot imagine my state of mind if I started to depend on a cellphone for web reading, but I guess a dictionary of expletives could get few new words. There is no day without cursing the web here, despite all the heavy measures I took to protect myself from poor (i.e. modern) design. Well, maybe I curse the web only every other day, plus every time the page almost loads except one small element (perhaps some JS dependence, and server is down/restarting so I wait minutes because reloading only makes things worse in this case - but perhaps this is my ISP's fault, but then ISP is part of it, too). As of Javascript - sure there is a place for it. I dream of writing a compiler in Javascript. A few have been written. Ok, maybe I do not dream so much to learn Javascript. But the whole "page is an app" is just misunderstanding in best case, or more probably, some kind of crime - crime against reason, for example. This was meant to be short(er), but got long(er). Blame the web. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Oct 21 01:53:00 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 01:53:00 -0500 Subject: Giving away my collection to someone just starting out in the hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, I don't think I qualify to receive the whole shebang, nor would I have room, but I will gladly take any box(es) un-tested / for parts / etc. C-64 hardware that you would care to offer. I endeavor to repair CBM machines, primarily C-64s and I am basically out of parts. I have 8-10 machin On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:25 AM, Digital Aeon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > After many years of collecting, Im tired of moving it all > > So ive picked out 4 or 5 systems that mean alot to me. And i want to > pass the rest of the collection onto someone starting out in the hobby that > wouldnt otherwise have the funds to get some of the stuff I have. > > So if there is anyone out there starting out and wants what I have I will > gladly hand it over to them free of charge. I would like to see this go > to someone who doesn't have anything. > > > I have apple, commodore, sun, x86 you name it I got it. about 4 > truckloads full if not more. > > Im located in Mid Michigan > > Steve > From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Oct 21 01:38:06 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 08:38:06 +0200 Subject: DEC Emulation Website In-Reply-To: References: <4D620786-734B-44F4-BD65-687F363B04B4@avanthar.com> <20171021010016.GB21770@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20171021063806.GC21770@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 07:39:01PM -0700, Zane Healy wrote: [...] > My chief complaint is that it suffers from a readability problem. > Part of that is for the ?updates? sections at the start of each > page. Let?s be serious, the pages haven?t been actively updated for > years, so that?s no longer really valid. There is new info out > there, and a lot of links I?m sure are dead. It seems that your site could get some updating, indeed. Some links are dead and some point to your old website, or something. And I think it could be better to have one central "what's new" section. Other than this, I can use it very comfortably in elinks - including left and right clicking the links. > Though what?s really changed is my attitude towards emulation. This > might sound odd, but when I wrote the pages, I wasn?t that much in > favor of emulation, and was more inclined to run on the real > hardware. In other words, you would like to put some more stuff to your website. I have had a look, and I think that perhaps you should try to select some more recent tool, or tools to do this new job. Unless you would like to keep using the previous tool, but wikipedia says it is discontinued. Once you have a tool, the rest is just some time and maybe perseverance. Out of the top of my head, before I drop: - Emacs + org-mode - myself, I would have looked at that first, mostly because I have already invested some time into learning Elisp, Emacs, and am able to use org in some basic way, so it could be perhaps just learning a bit on top of it - but if you do not know Emacs, this would be a very uphill project. It might require writing a snippet of Elisp or two. Some people have created nice pages with org-mode: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-web.html like this: http://srandby.org/ - variation of above - more code snippets to help yourself, in some yet another language I have never made a website in this way, so I have zero practical knowledge about process. I suspect it is very easy as long as one follows some path described in manual, and then gradually harder when it comes to bending org-mode to one's specific wishes. - adopt some wiki and remake your new site in its image - I am sure there must be something not so complicated, not depending on stuff I myself consider untrusty (like PHP, which many people use happily, but I would rather not). Advantage: you could probably get going in a day or two, site should look ok in many different browsers and you do not have to start from designing website structure, just start putting content into pages and tag it. Anyway, I would stay away from more complicated solutions, whatever they are written in, unless I was ready to read the source code on as needed basis (I am ready with Elisp/Emacs, so this would I choose, or at least considered - I am not ready to learn PHP and keep it ready to use, so I do not choose Wordpress, even if it can be used by people with almost no tech knowledge, from what I have seen - and besides WP has a baggage of its own security problems, so using it seems to me a bit like plowing a minefield). > It?s a heck of a lot more practical to leave SIMH running > on a VM, than it is to have a real VAX or PDP-11 running 24x7. [...] > Mind you, while I have a couple emulated VAXen running, I also have > a real VAX, and a rather nice Alpha running 24x7. Yeah, emulation is even more practical for those of us, who have no place for too many things, not even smaller VAX :-). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 22 20:08:09 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 18:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: <20171022081300.GA6054@morgan.ugr.es> References: <20171022081300.GA6054@morgan.ugr.es> Message-ID: >> I'm considering doing something that actually >> downloads my Gmail content locally and keeps it >> in sync periodically, but I haven't really >> looked at what's necessary for that. On Sun, 22 Oct 2017, Angel M Alganza via cctalk wrote: > Have a look at mbsync/isync if you still haven't > done anything about it on those two years. LOL > It does exactly what you wanted. > Cheers, > ?ngel ^ example A minor problem - A lot of mail that I receive won't display pro[perly on PINE (such as the first letter of your name in your signature! I end up forwarding some mail FROM PINE, TO GMail to be able to read it! From ethan at 757.org Sun Oct 22 20:16:46 2017 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 21:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: References: <20171022081300.GA6054@morgan.ugr.es> Message-ID: > A minor problem - A lot of mail that I receive won't display pro[perly on > PINE (such as the first letter of your name in your signature! > I end up forwarding some mail FROM PINE, TO GMail to be able to read it! The UTF-8 subject lines are the worst :-( Other than that, pine for 20 years (well, I suppose it's Alpine now.) -- : Ethan O'Toole From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Oct 22 21:13:14 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 21:13:14 -0500 Subject: Giving away my collection to someone just starting out in the hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171023021314.GB16509@lonesome.com> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 02:01:10AM -0500, drlegendre . via cctalk wrote: > Sorry about that. Trying to type from a hosp bed, had a broken hip that > didn't heal and needed multiple surgeries. Been in for almost two months. We, the list, are giving you the following direct order: get better soon. mcl From kurtk7 at centurylink.net Sun Oct 22 21:17:40 2017 From: kurtk7 at centurylink.net (Kurt K) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 21:17:40 -0500 Subject: Giving away my collection to someone just starting out in the hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm also in the Mpls/St Paul area and can help. Bill maybe a joint effort to assist? Just putting it out there. Steve must be the one to decide to how allocate. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 21, 2017, at 1:58 AM, drlegendre . via cctalk wrote: > > Steve, > > I don't think I qualify to receive the whole shebang, nor would I have > room, but I will gladly take any box(es) un-tested / for parts / etc. C-64 > hardware that you would care to offer. > > I endeavor to repair CBM machines, primarily C-64s and peripherals, and I > am basically out of parts. I have almost a dozen machines stacked up that > can't run for want of various parts... > > I'm in St. Paul, MN, and unable to work due to total disability (stage 5 > kidney disease. among other things). > > Best, > Bill Layer > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:25 AM, Digital Aeon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> After many years of collecting, Im tired of moving it all >> >> So ive picked out 4 or 5 systems that mean alot to me. And i want to >> pass the rest of the collection onto someone starting out in the hobby that >> wouldnt otherwise have the funds to get some of the stuff I have. >> >> So if there is anyone out there starting out and wants what I have I will >> gladly hand it over to them free of charge. I would like to see this go >> to someone who doesn't have anything. >> >> >> I have apple, commodore, sun, x86 you name it I got it. about 4 >> truckloads full if not more. >> >> Im located in Mid Michigan >> >> Steve >> From spc at conman.org Sun Oct 22 21:38:55 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 22:38:55 -0400 Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: References: <20171022081300.GA6054@morgan.ugr.es> Message-ID: <20171023023855.GH13882@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated: > >>I'm considering doing something that actually > >>downloads my Gmail content locally and keeps it > >>in sync periodically, but I haven't really > >>looked at what's necessary for that. > > On Sun, 22 Oct 2017, Angel M Alganza via cctalk wrote: > >Have a look at mbsync/isync if you still haven't > >done anything about it on those two years. LOL > >It does exactly what you wanted. > >Cheers, > >?ngel > ^ > example > > A minor problem - A lot of mail that I receive won't display pro[perly on > PINE (such as the first letter of your name in your signature! > I end up forwarding some mail FROM PINE, TO GMail to be able to read it! I have: LANG=en_US.UTF-8 LC_COLLATE=C as part of my environment, and I'm using a font that supports UTF-8. Then again, I'm using mutt, which supports locales and so it's only the really malformed emails that end up garbled on my end. Note---UTF-8 is now 25 years old, so it should be fine for this list 8-P -spc From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 22 16:01:36 2017 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 22:01:36 +0100 Subject: PC-MOS/386 v5.01 now open sourced Message-ID: <523903ae-ade0-1bfe-3d96-dca35a2a2864@ntlworld.com> The list has been quite for 24 hours for me, so sorry if this is a duplicate! The sources for the the latest version of PC-MOS/386 are up on github. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Oct 20 21:39:01 2017 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 19:39:01 -0700 Subject: DEC Emulation Website In-Reply-To: <20171021010016.GB21770@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <4D620786-734B-44F4-BD65-687F363B04B4@avanthar.com> <20171021010016.GB21770@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: > On Oct 20, 2017, at 6:00 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote: > >> >> Believe it or not, I am planning to update the pages in the near >> future, who knows, I might even modernize them a little. When I >> started them, one of the design goals was that they be readable with >> Lynx. I?m not sure how important that is anymore. :-) > > I have browsed it just few moments ago with lynx, emacs-w3 and my new > textual favourite, elinks (it multitabs!! and shows tables!! and I could > play with configuration a lot, so on 256-colors-enabled term it looks > a bit nicer to my eyes). In all them, and in some old graphical one, > the site looks decently. My chief complaint is that it suffers from a readability problem. Part of that is for the ?updates? sections at the start of each page. Let?s be serious, the pages haven?t been actively updated for years, so that?s no longer really valid. There is new info out there, and a lot of links I?m sure are dead. Though what?s really changed is my attitude towards emulation. This might sound odd, but when I wrote the pages, I wasn?t that much in favor of emulation, and was more inclined to run on the real hardware. It?s a heck of a lot more practical to leave SIMH running on a VM, than it is to have a real VAX or PDP-11 running 24x7. Then again the main source of inspiration for the pages was the PDP-10, and I?ve never viewed running one of those at home as practical. :-) Mind you, while I have a couple emulated VAXen running, I also have a real VAX, and a rather nice Alpha running 24x7. Zane From steven.feinsmith at gmail.com Fri Oct 20 21:32:42 2017 From: steven.feinsmith at gmail.com (Steven Feinsmith) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 22:32:42 -0400 Subject: CDP1801 In-Reply-To: <029d01d3487c$02a6b260$07f41720$@bettercomputing.net> References: <029d01d3487c$02a6b260$07f41720$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: RCA 1801 disappeared from face of Earth forever... You would be better off to purchase at: http://www.sunrise-ev.com/membershipcard.htm to use 1802. The 1802 was very successful microprocessor that replaced 1801 because it required to have a pair of chips to work together. I believe I saw 1801 was more than 30 years ago. Good luck! Steven On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 9:45 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Hi there, > > > > I just purchased an RCA Microtutor minus the rather important CPU card. I > can recreate the card but I expect locating the 1801 chips will be > difficult. I am just posting this in various forums in case anyone has any > leads on where I might find either the complete card or the required chips > to make a replacement. I'm wondering what, if any devices were built with > the 1801 that I might be able to scrounge from. > > > > Thanks again, > > > > B > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Oct 23 01:45:42 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 23:45:42 -0700 Subject: CDP1801 Message-ID: I'm going to put it on my list of projects to create a CPU card for my Microtutor that uses the 1802 instead I think.? I can get some blue PCB stock.? As far as I understand the 1802 is fully backward compatible. Maybe the 1801s will show up on day.? I've found all kinds of chips I was told were impossible to locate. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Steven Feinsmith Date: 2017-10-20 7:32 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Brad H , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: CDP1801 RCA 1801 disappeared from face of Earth forever... You would be better off to purchase at: http://www.sunrise-ev.com/membershipcard.htm to use 1802. The 1802 was very successful microprocessor that replaced 1801 because it required to have a pair of chips to work together. I believe I saw 1801 was more than 30 years ago. Good luck! Steven On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 9:45 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: Hi there, I just purchased an RCA Microtutor minus the rather important CPU card.? I can recreate the card but I expect locating the 1801 chips will be difficult.? I am just posting this in various forums in case anyone has any leads on where I might find either the complete card or the required chips to make a replacement.? I'm wondering what, if any devices were built with the 1801 that I might be able to scrounge from. Thanks again, B From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Oct 23 03:32:12 2017 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 19:32:12 +1100 Subject: Cloning A Hard Disk Over The Network Using Ultrix In-Reply-To: <000501d34a58$fa4f8810$eeee9830$@ntlworld.com> References: <000501d34a58$fa4f8810$eeee9830$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3225D594-AE79-4A90-AD55-0AD5D25D63FD@kerberos.davies.net.au> > On 21 Oct 2017, at 21:40, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I have a couple of hard disks I want to make dd copies of. I have Ultrix > running on my DECstation 5000/240 with the disk I want to clone attached to > it. The trouble is that I don't have enough disk space on the machine to > clone the disk and then grab the image using FTP. I have been trying to find > a way to pipe the dd output over the network to a SIMH Ultrix machine that > has plenty of disk space. I tried piping dd into rcp, but rcp doesn't seem > to take input from standard input. I have looked at cpio, but that too > appears not to accept input from standard input. > > > > Unix is not my strong point. Are there any other ways I could pipe the dd > output across the network to a machine that has enough disk space? netcat (nc) is the usual tool to do this on Unix type systems. Whether it?s available for Ultrix I don?t know but it may ?just compile?. If not, it?s not hard to write two simple programs to read from stdin and output to a TCP/IP socket on another host and the second to read from the socket and output to stdout. If I had to write the programs I?d either google for an example to copy or have a read of Stevens ?TCP/IP illustrated? book series - the only risk of reading them (there are 3 volumes) is that you can spend 6 months just learning and not doing :-)' Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 23 04:10:07 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:10:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cloning A Hard Disk Over The Network Using Ultrix In-Reply-To: <000501d34a58$fa4f8810$eeee9830$@ntlworld.com> References: <000501d34a58$fa4f8810$eeee9830$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Oct 2017, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I have a couple of hard disks I want to make dd copies of. I have Ultrix > running on my DECstation 5000/240 with the disk I want to clone attached to > it. The trouble is that I don't have enough disk space on the machine to > clone the disk and then grab the image using FTP. I have been trying to find > a way to pipe the dd output over the network to a SIMH Ultrix machine that > has plenty of disk space. I tried piping dd into rcp, but rcp doesn't seem > to take input from standard input. I have looked at cpio, but that too > appears not to accept input from standard input. You don't use rcp but rsh (or ssh), for example: # dd if=/dev/... bs=32768 conv=noerror,sync | rsh otherhost "cat >/dest/path" You should use a bigger blocksize than the default of 512 bytes, otherwise reading will be quite slow... Or (my preferred way under UNIX), just mount a remote filesystem via NFS ;-) Christian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 23 04:26:30 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 10:26:30 +0100 Subject: Cloning A Hard Disk Over The Network Using Ultrix In-Reply-To: <3225D594-AE79-4A90-AD55-0AD5D25D63FD@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <000501d34a58$fa4f8810$eeee9830$@ntlworld.com> <3225D594-AE79-4A90-AD55-0AD5D25D63FD@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <006701d34be1$02dd2ad0$08978070$@ntlworld.com> The rsh solution worked for me actually. I used this: dd if=/dev/rrz1c conv=noerror,sync | rsh ult1 dd of=/usr/rz1.dd Where ?ult1? was the remote node Thanks Rob From: Huw Davies [mailto:huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au] Sent: 23 October 2017 09:32 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Cloning A Hard Disk Over The Network Using Ultrix On 21 Oct 2017, at 21:40, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: I have a couple of hard disks I want to make dd copies of. I have Ultrix running on my DECstation 5000/240 with the disk I want to clone attached to it. The trouble is that I don't have enough disk space on the machine to clone the disk and then grab the image using FTP. I have been trying to find a way to pipe the dd output over the network to a SIMH Ultrix machine that has plenty of disk space. I tried piping dd into rcp, but rcp doesn't seem to take input from standard input. I have looked at cpio, but that too appears not to accept input from standard input. Unix is not my strong point. Are there any other ways I could pipe the dd output across the network to a machine that has enough disk space? netcat (nc) is the usual tool to do this on Unix type systems. Whether it?s available for Ultrix I don?t know but it may ?just compile?. If not, it?s not hard to write two simple programs to read from stdin and output to a TCP/IP socket on another host and the second to read from the socket and output to stdout. If I had to write the programs I?d either google for an example to copy or have a read of Stevens ?TCP/IP illustrated? book series - the only risk of reading them (there are 3 volumes) is that you can spend 6 months just learning and not doing :-)' Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 23 08:52:14 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 06:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: References: <20171022081300.GA6054@morgan.ugr.es> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Oct 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> I'm considering doing something that actually >>> downloads my Gmail content locally and keeps it >>> in sync periodically, but I haven't really >>> looked at what's necessary for that. > > On Sun, 22 Oct 2017, Angel M Alganza via cctalk wrote: >> Have a look at mbsync/isync if you still haven't >> done anything about it on those two years. LOL >> It does exactly what you wanted. >> Cheers, >> ?ngel > ^ > example > > A minor problem - A lot of mail that I receive won't display pro[perly on > PINE (such as the first letter of your name in your signature! > I end up forwarding some mail FROM PINE, TO GMail to be able to read it! I have the same issue using Alpine. Best email anti-virus on the planet though. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From pb at pbcl.net Mon Oct 23 10:24:25 2017 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:24:25 +0100 Subject: Fujitsu M2235S In-Reply-To: <51779c1f-a390-37a5-81ca-9c28e48251ac@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <1508610676.32728.11.camel@pbcl.net> <51779c1f-a390-37a5-81ca-9c28e48251ac@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <1508772265.4093.17.camel@pbcl.net> No, that was what I was thinking of with the "some sort of latch" comment. Where is the head lock? Thanks Phil On Mon, 2017-10-23 at 10:19 -0500, Tom Uban wrote: > I assume you've released the head lock? > > On 10/21/17 1:31 PM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > > Anybody familiar with the internals of these disks? I have one > > here > > which seems to have the positioner stuck at track zero. I'm not > > sure > > whether it's likely to be just a bit sticky and in need of some > > assistance or whether there is some sort of latch involved, and I > > am a > > bit reluctant to just pull the lid off the chamber to find out. > > > > Thanks > > > > Phil > > > > > > From rlloken at telus.net Mon Oct 23 10:32:16 2017 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 09:32:16 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: 6SdmexkgWhCDu6SdoeXf5A References: <20171022081300.GA6054@morgan.ugr.es> 6SdmexkgWhCDu6SdoeXf5A Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Oct 2017, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: By gum! Alpine does indeed translate the 'A' into a '?' and I never noticed. It seems that my tiny mind simply translated the character and moved on. > I have: > > LANG=en_US.UTF-8 > LC_COLLATE=C > > as part of my environment, and I'm using a font that supports UTF-8... And how does one know that a font supports UTF-8? And yes UTF-8 has been around for decades but as an English speaker I didn't have to think about unicode and locale and stuff like that. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Oct 23 10:33:45 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 10:33:45 -0500 Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: <20171022081300.GA6054@morgan.ugr.es> References: <20171022081300.GA6054@morgan.ugr.es> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 3:13 AM, Angel M Alganza via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello: > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 01:39:32PM -0600, > (Yes, almost two years ago. I'm a bit behind with > my mail, LOL.) Eric Christopherson wrote: > > > I'm considering doing something that actually > > downloads my Gmail content locally and keeps it > > in sync periodically, but I haven't really > > looked at what's necessary for that. > > Have a look at mbsync/isync if you still haven't > done anything about it on those two years. LOL > It does exactly what you wanted. > > Cheers, > ?ngel > Gracias, ?ngel. As a matter of fact I *haven't* done any work on that front lately. I will be sure to check these out. I can't remember how long I've been using it (but apparently for at least two years), but I use Gmail's IMAP via mutt. I know a lot of people like *pine but when I first started seriously playing around with text-mode Linux (since I installed it on a system that I figured was too wimpy to support X) I started using mutt for local and POP/SMTP mail and have always really liked it. I use alpine in a shell account on a remote server I use, but I'm always cursing the way it helpfully offers to automatically archive and/or delete old messages. I know at least once I've accidentally hit a key giving it permission to do its thing, with no chance of undoing it. I thought I had turned that off somehow, but the last time I used it it happened again. I'm pretty sure the first *nix email client I used was elm. I seem to remember liking it better than pine, but I don't remember why. -- Eric Christopherson From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Oct 23 10:36:43 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 10:36:43 -0500 Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: References: <20171022081300.GA6054@morgan.ugr.es> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Richard Loken via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 22 Oct 2017, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > > By gum! Alpine does indeed translate the 'A' into a '?' and I never > noticed. It seems that my tiny mind simply translated the character > and moved on. > > I have: >> >> LANG=en_US.UTF-8 >> LC_COLLATE=C >> >> as part of my environment, and I'm using a font that supports UTF-8... >> > > And how does one know that a font supports UTF-8? > > And yes UTF-8 has been around for decades but as an English speaker I > didn't have to think about unicode and locale and stuff like that. I just joined the SunHelp rescue list a few weeks ago, and I've seen several places where "curly quotes" get replaced by the letter b plus another character I can't remember off the top of my head. This seems to be a problem with their list rather than with mutt. I have to say, though, that curly quotes are a huge problem encodingwise anyway. (It's always nice to paste in some source code where the nice clean ASCII quotes have been converted into matching pairs of curly quotes!) -- Eric Christopherson From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Mon Oct 23 10:19:37 2017 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 10:19:37 -0500 Subject: Fujitsu M2235S In-Reply-To: <1508610676.32728.11.camel@pbcl.net> References: <1508610676.32728.11.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: <51779c1f-a390-37a5-81ca-9c28e48251ac@figureeightbrewing.com> I assume you've released the head lock? On 10/21/17 1:31 PM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > Anybody familiar with the internals of these disks? I have one here > which seems to have the positioner stuck at track zero. I'm not sure > whether it's likely to be just a bit sticky and in need of some > assistance or whether there is some sort of latch involved, and I am a > bit reluctant to just pull the lid off the chamber to find out. > > Thanks > > Phil > > From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Mon Oct 23 10:27:12 2017 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 10:27:12 -0500 Subject: Fujitsu M2235S In-Reply-To: <1508772265.4093.17.camel@pbcl.net> References: <1508610676.32728.11.camel@pbcl.net> <51779c1f-a390-37a5-81ca-9c28e48251ac@figureeightbrewing.com> <1508772265.4093.17.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: <32764487-31f7-2e06-c3bb-41a591c9f5c3@figureeightbrewing.com> It varies from drive to drive, but there is usually a sticker pointing it out, perhaps on the bottom of the drive, sometimes a screw has to be loosened in order to slide a bracket, etc. On 10/23/17 10:24 AM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > No, that was what I was thinking of with the "some sort of latch" > comment. Where is the head lock? > Thanks > Phil > On Mon, 2017-10-23 at 10:19 -0500, Tom Uban wrote: >> I assume you've released the head lock? >> >> On 10/21/17 1:31 PM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: >>> Anybody familiar with the internals of these disks? I have one >>> here >>> which seems to have the positioner stuck at track zero. I'm not >>> sure >>> whether it's likely to be just a bit sticky and in need of some >>> assistance or whether there is some sort of latch involved, and I >>> am a >>> bit reluctant to just pull the lid off the chamber to find out. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> >> From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 23 13:20:07 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 20:20:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: References: <20171022081300.GA6054@morgan.ugr.es> 6SdmexkgWhCDu6SdoeXf5A Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Oct 2017, Richard Loken wrote: > By gum! Alpine does indeed translate the 'A' into a '?' and I never > noticed. I'm using Alpine, too, and have no problems with the ? or any other foreign character. I'm not even using UTF-8 but plain ISO-8859-1 in my terminal. But it's important to set "Display Character Set" and "Unknown Character Set" in Alpine's settings! Otherwise you'll see '?' for all non-ASCII characters. Christian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 23 15:45:42 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 21:45:42 +0100 Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU Message-ID: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> I am now looking at the H7826 PSU that came with a TURBOchannel Extender. It looks like there may have been capacitor leakage and some heatsinks will need to be replaced. I have posted pictures here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2017/10/23/corroded-h7826-power-supply/ So two questions: 1. Any suggestion on how to clean the board? Some of the corners are a bit inaccessible to reach with just a cotton bud and isopropyl. 2. Do those heat sinks have a particular name/spec that I can search for? Thanks Rob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 23 17:09:58 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 22:09:58 +0000 Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I don't see why you have assumed that one of the capacitors has leaked. The corrosion could have come from water or condensation onto the board. I don't see any corrosion on the components. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Rob Jarratt via cctalk Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 1:45:42 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU I am now looking at the H7826 PSU that came with a TURBOchannel Extender. It looks like there may have been capacitor leakage and some heatsinks will need to be replaced. I have posted pictures here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2017/10/23/corroded-h7826-power-supply/ So two questions: 1. Any suggestion on how to clean the board? Some of the corners are a bit inaccessible to reach with just a cotton bud and isopropyl. 2. Do those heat sinks have a particular name/spec that I can search for? Thanks Rob From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 23 17:27:54 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 15:27:54 -0700 Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 10/23/2017 01:45 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I am now looking at the H7826 PSU that came with a TURBOchannel Extender. It > looks like there may have been capacitor leakage and some heatsinks will > need to be replaced. I have posted pictures here: > > > > https://robs-old-computers.com/2017/10/23/corroded-h7826-power-supply/ This board actually appears to be in very good condition. At least it's not a centimeter deep in hardened mouse poop! (yes, this has happened to me). --Chuck From pb at pbcl.net Mon Oct 23 17:27:29 2017 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 23:27:29 +0100 Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1508797649.32728.15.camel@pbcl.net> On Mon, 2017-10-23 at 21:45 +0100, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I am now looking at the H7826 PSU that came with a TURBOchannel > Extender. It > looks like there may have been capacitor leakage and some heatsinks > will > need to be replaced. I have posted pictures here: > > ? > > https://robs-old-computers.com/2017/10/23/corroded-h7826-power-supply > / Maybe the photos don't do justice to the full horror but it doesn't look all that bad from what you've posted. The heatsinks do look a bit corroded but, if they are aluminium (which I would guess they are from the photos) then this might just be dampness rather than anything more sinister. Aluminium does tend to rot a bit in prolonged contact with water, and if it is also in contact with steel then you get an electrolytic reaction which can be fairly ruinous. I doubt the heatsinks are a standard part you can buy off the shelf. They have a bit of a custom look about them. But, unless you are worried about authenticity of those parts, a standard heatsink from Farnell etc will work just fine. If you do want the authentic article then you might need to get some replacements machined. As for cleaning the board, given that it seems to be relatively low- tech I would probably be fairly comfortable putting it in the dishwasher on a shortish cycle. Then give it a bit of a rinse with deionised water and let it dry out. The caps don't look obviously leaky, and (unlike batteries) it doesn't seem to be common for capacitors to ooze their electrolyte without fairly evident physical distress. But replacing them is probably a good plan anyway! p. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 23 18:46:34 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 23:46:34 +0000 Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: <1508797649.32728.15.camel@pbcl.net> References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com>, <1508797649.32728.15.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: I would remove the transformers before putting it in the wash. The big one doesn't look to be hermetically sealed. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Phil Blundell via cctalk Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 3:27:29 PM To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU On Mon, 2017-10-23 at 21:45 +0100, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I am now looking at the H7826 PSU that came with a TURBOchannel > Extender. It > looks like there may have been capacitor leakage and some heatsinks > will > need to be replaced. I have posted pictures here: > > > > https://robs-old-computers.com/2017/10/23/corroded-h7826-power-supply > / Maybe the photos don't do justice to the full horror but it doesn't look all that bad from what you've posted. The heatsinks do look a bit corroded but, if they are aluminium (which I would guess they are from the photos) then this might just be dampness rather than anything more sinister. Aluminium does tend to rot a bit in prolonged contact with water, and if it is also in contact with steel then you get an electrolytic reaction which can be fairly ruinous. I doubt the heatsinks are a standard part you can buy off the shelf. They have a bit of a custom look about them. But, unless you are worried about authenticity of those parts, a standard heatsink from Farnell etc will work just fine. If you do want the authentic article then you might need to get some replacements machined. As for cleaning the board, given that it seems to be relatively low- tech I would probably be fairly comfortable putting it in the dishwasher on a shortish cycle. Then give it a bit of a rinse with deionised water and let it dry out. The caps don't look obviously leaky, and (unlike batteries) it doesn't seem to be common for capacitors to ooze their electrolyte without fairly evident physical distress. But replacing them is probably a good plan anyway! p. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 23 20:14:58 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 20:14:58 -0500 Subject: Fujitsu M2235S In-Reply-To: <1508610676.32728.11.camel@pbcl.net> References: <1508610676.32728.11.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: On 10/21/2017 01:31 PM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > Anybody familiar with the internals of these disks? I have one here > which seems to have the positioner stuck at track zero. I'm not sure > whether it's likely to be just a bit sticky and in need of some > assistance or whether there is some sort of latch involved, and I am a > bit reluctant to just pull the lid off the chamber to find out. There appears to be a photo of the internals here, if that helps at all: http://museum.ipsj.or.jp/computer/device/magnetic_disk/images/0011_03_l.jpg ... it's a little small, so hard to tell what's going on for sure! I don't see any obvious locking mechanism, though. There's a Fujitsu M2333KS on ebay - item # 182218376023 - which appears to be quite similar in layout. That one appears to have some form of positioner / track 0 sensor accessible from outside the HDA if the logic board is removed - is that true of the 2235 too? From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Oct 23 20:25:33 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 20:25:33 -0500 Subject: HP 7907 read preamp question In-Reply-To: References: <5012ecd8-1aa4-a26c-2391-10c9731e5338@sydex.com> <59E93C96.5030902@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <59EE968D.30000@pico-systems.com> On 10/21/2017 12:43 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > No, it turns out the answer is to set the preamp gain at > spec. It appears to do nothing but create more problems if > turned up higher than that. It was worth a try. --Chuck Well, then, now you have your answer! From working with tapes and drives a long time ago, I seem to recall that unless you had print through, the difference between a 1 and a 0 was quite large, so there really was no need to fine tune the gain or slicer levels. If you had varying signal amplitudes, it was more likely dirt on the heads, really bad tape weave or something crazy like that, and mechanical, and not variation in the tape signal itself. We tried some extended-length tapes that were about half the thickness, and quickly saw nasty print through trouble, and got rid of all of it. (This was likely at 1600 BPI, might have even been worse at 800 BPI.) Jon From cube1 at charter.net Mon Oct 23 14:34:56 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 14:34:56 -0500 Subject: Cloning A Hard Disk Over The Network Using Ultrix In-Reply-To: <000501d34a58$fa4f8810$eeee9830$@ntlworld.com> References: <000501d34a58$fa4f8810$eeee9830$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <863fcf04-dfb1-781d-8066-b82171a50d56@charter.net> On 10/21/2017 5:40 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctech wrote: > I have a couple of hard disks I want to make dd copies of. I have Ultrix > running on my DECstation 5000/240 with the disk I want to clone attached to > it. The trouble is that I don't have enough disk space on the machine to > clone the disk and then grab the image using FTP. I have been trying to find > a way to pipe the dd output over the network to a SIMH Ultrix machine that > has plenty of disk space. I tried piping dd into rcp, but rcp doesn't seem > to take input from standard input. I have looked at cpio, but that too > appears not to accept input from standard input. > > > > Unix is not my strong point. Are there any other ways I could pipe the dd > output across the network to a machine that has enough disk space? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > One way would be to attach the drive to an x86 machine that supports the disk drives, and use clonezilla. Another way, which I have used, is to use perl or Python to do the job. They are relatively small, so I just included mine here. I had trouble with the perl version under Linux at some point, so now on the Linux side, I use a Python version. NOTE: I am not very fluent in Python. Also, I don't use the Python server version. #!/usr/bin/perl # # Simple program for piping output (such as tar) from one system to another. # Contains client and server in the same script. # # Usage: tcppipe [ -c server [-i file] ] | [ -s [-o file] ] [-p port] # # The client reads standard input by default and sends it to "server" on "port". # The server writes standard output by default. # # Port defaults to 1025 # # JRJ 12/95 # use Getopt::Std; use Socket; $debug=1; $PROGRAM='tcppipe'; $VERSION='V1.0'; $PORT = 4097; $MTU=65536; $AF_INET=2; $SOCK_STREAM=1; $PF_INET=2; $sockaddr='S n a4 x8'; # # Get and validate options. # getopts('c:si:o:p:') || usage(); if(($opt_c && $opt_s) || (!$opt_c && !$opt_s) || ($opt_c && $opt_o) || ($opt_s && $opt_i)) { usage(); } if(!$opt_p) { $opt_p = $PORT; } # # Call the client or server piece, as appropriate. # if($opt_c) { return(pipe_client($opt_c,$opt_p,$opt_i)); } else { return(pipe_server($opt_p,$opt_o)); } # # Client piece # sub pipe_client { local($server,$client_port,$infile) = @_; if($infile && ! -f $infile) { die "$0: $infile is not a valid file.\n"; } # # Open the file. In binary, if you please... # if($infile) { open(INFILE,$infile) || die "$0: Can't open file $infile: $!"; $fd = INFILE; } else { $fd = STDIN; } binmode $fd; if($debug) { print "Server: $server \n"; } # # Do some work to prepare the socket data structures # ($pname, $paliases, $proto) = getprotobyname('tcp'); ($hname, $haliases, $htype, $hlen, $hip) = gethostbyname($server); if(!defined($hip)) { die "$0: Unknown host: $server : $! "; } if($debug) { @nip = unpack('C4',$hip); print "Host address for $server: @nip \n"; } $netaddr = pack($sockaddr, $AF_INET, $client_port, $hip); socket(SERVER,$PF_INET,$SOCK_STREAM,$proto) || die "Can't create socket: $!"; # # Open the connection to the server. # connect(SERVER,$netaddr) || die "Can't connect to server: $!"; select(SERVER); $|=1; select(stdout); if($debug) { print "Connected to $server\n"; } # # Server indicates it's name and version # $_=; if($debug) { print "Server: $_"; } /^220 $PROGRAM $VERSION\n$/ || die "$0: Unexpected server response: $_"; # # Send the file. # while(read($fd,$buf,$MTU)) { if($debug) { print "Read in " . length($buf) . " bytes.\n"; } print SERVER $buf || die "Can't send data to server: $!"; if($debug) { print "Sent...\n"; } } # # All done # close(SERVER); close($fd); print "Transfer completed.\n"; exit 0; } # # Server piece # sub pipe_server { local($server_port,$outfile) = @_; # # Open the file. In binary, if you please... # if($outfile) { open(OUTFILE,">$outfile") || die "$0: Can't open file $infile: $!"; $fd = OUTFILE; } else { $fd = STDOUT; } binmode $fd; # # Do some work to prepare the socket data structures # ($pname, $paliases, $proto) = getprotobyname('tcp'); socket(SERVER,$PF_INET,$SOCK_STREAM,$proto) || die "Can't create socket: $!"; setsockopt(SERVER,SOL_SOCKET,SO_REUSEADDR,pack("l",1)) || die "Can't setsockopt: $!"; bind(SERVER,sockaddr_in($server_port,INADDR_ANY)) || die "Can't bind: $!"; listen(SERVER,SOMAXCONN) || die "Can't listen: $!"; if($debug) { print "Server started on port $server_port\n"; } # # Wait for a connection. # accept(CLIENT,SERVER); select(CLIENT); $| =1; select(STDOUT); # # Send our banner # if ($debug) { print "Received connection request...\n"; } print CLIENT "220 $PROGRAM $VERSION\n"; # # Send the file. # while(read(CLIENT,$buf,$MTU)) { if($debug) { print "Read in " . length($buf) . " bytes.\n"; } print $fd $buf || die "Can't write data: $!"; } # # All done # close(CLIENT); close(SERVER); close($fd); if($debug) { print "Transfer completed.\n"; } exit 0; } sub usage { printf STDERR "Usage $0: -c server [-i infile] | -s [-o outfile] [-p [port]]\n"; exit(2); } ################################################################################## #!/usr/bin/python # # Client program in python corresponding to tcppipe.pl # # WARNING: If running this program under Cygwin under # Windows, set your file output style to binary (rather # than ASCII) or it adds carriage returns before every # newline (or just use the perl version, instead) # This simplistic code takes ONE MANDATORY argument - the # host address import socket import sys PORT = 4097 PROGRAM = 'tcppipe' VERSION = 'V1.0' MTU = 16384 HOST = sys.argv[1] debug = 0 if debug: sys.stderr.write('Server: ' + HOST) # # Prepare the socket # s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET,socket.SOCK_STREAM) s.connect((HOST,PORT)) buf = s.recv(1024) if debug: sys.stderr.write('Connected: ' + buf) # # Send the data # while 1: buf = sys.stdin.read(MTU) if not buf: break s.send(buf) if debug: sys.stderr.write('Sent ' + str(len(buf)) + ' bytes' + '\n') # # Close down # s.close() if debug: sys.stderr.write('Done...\n') ################################################################################## # # Server program in Python corresponding to tcppipe.pl # # # WARNING: If running this program under Cygwin under # Windows, set your file output style to binary (rather # than ASCII) or it adds carriage returns before every # newline (or just use the perl version, instead) # import socket import sys PORT = 4097 # port to listen on PROGRAM = 'tcppipe' VERSION = 'V1.0' # Version MTU = 16384 # max block to receive debug = 1 # Print debugging messages # # Prepare the socket # s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET,socket.SOCK_STREAM) s.bind(('',PORT)) if debug: sys.stderr.write('Server started on port' + str(PORT) + '\n') # # Wait for a connection # s.listen(1) connection, client_address = s.accept() if debug: sys.stderr.write('Received connection request from ' + str(client_address) + '\n') # # Send out the banner to the client # connection.send('220 ' + PROGRAM + ' ' + VERSION + '\n') # # Receive the data # while 1: buf = connection.recv(MTU) if not buf: break if debug: sys.stderr.write('Read in ' + str(len(buf)) + ' bytes' + '\n') sys.stdout.write(buf) # # Close down # connection.close() if debug: sys.stderr.write('Done...\n') From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Tue Oct 24 00:44:16 2017 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 01:44:16 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? Message-ID: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> Hi DEC Enthusiast's, If I were to have to decide on just one model DEC PDP system to run in a DEC Emulator, which one would be the most useful, versatile and has the most software available for it? I have only ever used a real PDP-8/e system way back in high school so I'm not up to par on any other model of DEC PDP system and I only know BASIC on the PDP-8/e so not much there either. I hear a lot about the PDP-11. I found out that there were 16 major PDP models at one time so I'm not too sure which one to pick. I built Oscar Vermeulen's PiDP-8/I which I'm waiting on 1 part for. Other than that project which is in a holding pattern at the moment, I have no other PDP anything running in any form. Back in the day when Bill Gates and company 1st started out, I had always wondered how they developed their very 1st software program - Altair Basic. I was pleasantly surprised one day when I saw a B/W photo of a young Bill Gates bending over the operator at what looked like a very small computer. Maybe it was just a terminal. I don't remember. I understand they did software development on a DEC PDP of some sort. Finding this out regenerated my interest in the DEC PDP line of computers. I have many projects in the works already so I decided to setup a software emulation of just one of the DEC PDP models. I have heard a lot about the PDP-11 which if the information I read is correct was 16-bits. My PiDP-8/I is 12 bits. I understand the PDP 10 was 36-bits and the PDP-15 was 18-bit. The PDP-11 is the model I hear the most about. I also have some experience on some version of a VAX when I was in the Air Force so I'm thinking of getting a VAX emulation going at some point too. So if I'm going to do this, what suggestions, pointers, experiences, etcetera do you guys have for me. I am very interested in the DEC PDP equipment though next to no experience so I have no basis to make a decision. This is a serious request so I would definitely like to hear what you all have to say. If you have read this far, thank you. Take care my friends. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/User:Computerdoc From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Tue Oct 24 00:45:41 2017 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 01:45:41 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? Message-ID: <000b01d34c8b$5535a320$ffa0e960$@sc.rr.com> Hi DEC Enthusiast's, If I were to have to decide on just one model DEC PDP system to run in a DEC Emulator, which one would be the most useful, versatile and has the most software available for it? I have only ever used a real PDP-8/e system way back in high school so I'm not up to par on any other model of DEC PDP system and I only know BASIC on the PDP-8/e so not much there either. I hear a lot about the PDP-11. I found out that there were 16 major PDP models at one time so I'm not too sure which one to pick. I built Oscar Vermeulen's PiDP-8/I which I'm waiting on 1 part for. Other than that project which is in a holding pattern at the moment, I have no other PDP anything running in any form. Back in the day when Bill Gates and company 1st started out, I had always wondered how they developed their very 1st software program - Altair Basic. I was pleasantly surprised one day when I saw a B/W photo of a young Bill Gates bending over the operator at what looked like a very small computer. Maybe it was just a terminal. I don't remember. I understand they did software development on a DEC PDP of some sort. Finding this out regenerated my interest in the DEC PDP line of computers. I have many projects in the works already so I decided to setup a software emulation of just one of the DEC PDP models. I have heard a lot about the PDP-11 which if the information I read is correct was 16-bits. My PiDP-8/I is 12 bits. I understand the PDP 10 was 36-bits and the PDP-15 was 18-bit. The PDP-11 is the model I hear the most about. I also have some experience on some version of a VAX when I was in the Air Force so I'm thinking of getting a VAX emulation going at some point too. So if I'm going to do this, what suggestions, pointers, experiences, etcetera do you guys have for me. I am very interested in the DEC PDP equipment though next to no experience so I have no basis to make a decision. This is a serious request so I would definitely like to hear what you all have to say. If you have read this far, thank you. Take care my friends. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/User:Computerdoc From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 04:00:34 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 10:00:34 +0100 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <000b01d34c8b$5535a320$ffa0e960$@sc.rr.com> References: <000b01d34c8b$5535a320$ffa0e960$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <00ab01d34ca6$8e0bdaa0$aa238fe0$@gmail.com> Kip, It depends on what your interest is! Of course PDP stood for "Programmed Data Processor" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmed_Data_Processor and avoids the use of the word computer because the backers of Digital did not want them building a Computer. I believed it also helped sales as it by-passed corporate purchasing edicts which said only central IT departments could buy computers... The PDP8 is the smallest but most hackable, but things like Oscars 8I or the SBC6120 which turns up from time to time (google SBC6120) mean that its possible to have something approaching a physical PDP-8 to play with rather than just emulation. But if small is beautiful then may be the machine for you. These were used all over the place. Manchester University Medical School had one connected to its IBM7090, Leeds to its KDF9. Really a revolution in computing. Its amazing what folks got to run on these using only paper tape. Eventually made in a Microprocessor with the Harris and Interrail 6100 and then the Harris HD6120.. The PDP-11 covers a huge range of systems and I know there are still some PDP-11's in service. At one time Barclays, a UK bank used them as Branch Controllers so every branch had a PDP-11 and in those days there were many more branches than there are now. I learnt BASIC on one at Salford University in 1977. When I worked for the uk's Natural Environment Research Council we must have had hundreds of the things. We used them to build "media conversion" systems that would copy data from scientific instruments and to build front end concentrators for our Honeywell L66. More capable than the PDP-11 but possibly less easy to hack. Lots of different Operating Systems out there but for some licensing is interesting. Was used to develop early Unix The VAX-11 is probably my favourite box. I have several physical VAXen all with the VMS OS installed. Really gives a flavour of what interactive computing was like in the 1970's and 1980's. Very capable but even less easy to hack, and initially big and expensive, which is why the PDP-11 continued to be available for many years. There is also the PDP-10/Dec System 10 which was claimed to be a Mainframe but I never met one of these. Probably not for the faint hearted. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kip Koon > via cctalk > Sent: 24 October 2017 06:46 > To: cctech > Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > Hi DEC Enthusiast's, > > If I were to have to decide on just one model DEC PDP system to run in a DEC > Emulator, which one would be the most useful, versatile and has the most > software available for it? > > I have only ever used a real PDP-8/e system way back in high school so I'm > not up to par on any other model of DEC PDP system and I only know BASIC > on the PDP-8/e so not much there either. > > I hear a lot about the PDP-11. I found out that there were 16 major PDP > models at one time so I'm not too sure which one to pick. > > I built Oscar Vermeulen's PiDP-8/I which I'm waiting on 1 part for. Other than > that project which is in a holding pattern at the moment, I have no other PDP > anything running in any form. > > Back in the day when Bill Gates and company 1st started out, I had always > wondered how they developed their very 1st software program - Altair Basic. > I was pleasantly surprised one day when I saw a B/W photo of a young Bill > Gates bending over the operator at what looked like a very small computer. > Maybe it was just a terminal. I don't remember. I understand they did > software development on a DEC PDP of some sort. > > Finding this out regenerated my interest in the DEC PDP line of computers. > > I have many projects in the works already so I decided to setup a software > emulation of just one of the DEC PDP models. I have heard a lot about the > PDP-11 which if the information I read is correct was 16-bits. My PiDP-8/I is > 12 bits. I understand the PDP 10 was 36-bits and the PDP-15 was 18-bit. > The PDP-11 is the model I hear the most about. > > I also have some experience on some version of a VAX when I was in the Air > Force so I'm thinking of getting a VAX emulation going at some point too. > > So if I'm going to do this, what suggestions, pointers, experiences, etcetera > do you guys have for me. I am very interested in the DEC PDP equipment > though next to no experience so I have no basis to make a decision. This is a > serious request so I would definitely like to hear what you all have to say. If > you have read this far, thank you. Take care my friends. > > > > > > Kip Koon > > computerdoc at sc.rr.com > > http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/User:Computerdoc > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 24 07:06:18 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 08:06:18 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 24, 2017, at 1:44 AM, Kip Koon via cctalk wrote: > > Hi DEC Enthusiast's, > > If I were to have to decide on just one model DEC PDP system to run in a DEC > Emulator, which one would be the most useful, versatile and has the most > software available for it? > > I have only ever used a real PDP-8/e system way back in high school so I'm > not up to par on any other model of DEC PDP system and I only know BASIC on > the PDP-8/e so not much there either. > > I hear a lot about the PDP-11. I found out that there were 16 major PDP > models at one time so I'm not too sure which one to pick. > > I built Oscar Vermeulen's PiDP-8/I which I'm waiting on 1 part for. Other > than that project which is in a holding pattern at the moment, I have no > other PDP anything running in any form. When you say "emulation" do you mean a software emulator like SIMH or E11? For those, the model choice is just a startup parameter, so you can change at will. Or do you mean an FPGA based one like PDP2011? There too the choice is a parameter, when you build the VHDL into the actual FPGA bits. In any case, if you want to pick a particular model, I would say 11/70 is a good choice. While near the end of the PDP11 era the Q-bus became mainstream, for much of the time the Unibus was either the only or at least the primary I/O bus. It has the full memory management unit and full floating point, so any software that requires these is happy. It has 22 bit addressing for big memory. And it is old enough that early operating systems like DOS will work. You could even turn on CIS instructions and call it an 11/74, the semi-mythical 11/70 variant for commercial applications (COBOL) that never shipped, some say because it was too good compared to the VAX 11/780. One more consideration: if by "emulator" you mean something in hardware that has an actual DEC I/O bus coming out of it and accepts real DEC cards, then a Q-bus system may be better, it depends on what I/O devices you can most readily find. If so, I'd go for the 11/73. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 08:07:28 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 09:07:28 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 8:06 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Oct 24, 2017, at 1:44 AM, Kip Koon via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Hi DEC Enthusiast's, > > > > If I were to have to decide on just one model DEC PDP system to run in a > DEC > > Emulator, which one would be the most useful, versatile and has the most > > software available for it? > > > I think OS/8 is pretty good for a one user system, if that's what you're using it for. You already kind of know it and one can run a lot of languages on it. I'd agree about the 11/70, but only if you're running the kinds of applications found on the disk images that are out there. Otherwise over time you can make your own tapes/RL02/RK05.etc disk pack sets (or whatever) to emulate in. I have a Next Thing CHIP with as many SimH builds and images as I could find and test to set up, DEC included, so I can switch around at will. I have my a serial terminal for I/O. Certainly never get bored with that kind of setup. Bill From unibus at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 09:29:37 2017 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 01:29:37 +1100 Subject: Convex Computer Corporation manuals Message-ID: Anybody want some Convex Computer Corporation manuals on microfiche. The titles are: - CONVEX C Guide - CONVEX C Optimization Guide - CONVEX FORTRAN User's Guide - CONVEX FORTRAN Reference Manual - CONVEX FORTRAN Optimization Guide - CONVEX VECLIB User's Guide - CONVEX LSQPACK User's Guide Free to a good home or it will be plastic recycling From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 09:32:09 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 10:32:09 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: >> On Oct 24, 2017, at 1:44 AM, Kip Koon via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hi DEC Enthusiast's, >> >> If I were to have to decide on just one model DEC PDP system to run in a DEC >> Emulator, which one would be the most useful, versatile and has the most >> software available for it? >> >> I have only ever used a real PDP-8/e system way back in high school so I'm >> not up to par on any other model of DEC PDP system and I only know BASIC on >> the PDP-8/e so not much there either. >> >> I hear a lot about the PDP-11. I found out that there were 16 major PDP >> models at one time so I'm not too sure which one to pick. >> >> I built Oscar Vermeulen's PiDP-8/I which I'm waiting on 1 part for. Other >> than that project which is in a holding pattern at the moment, I have no >> other PDP anything running in any form. > The problem is how your asking. First question is there is not one PDP system? and more than there is one FORD. So you have to narrow the question to your interests such as 12, 16, 18, 32, ?or 36 bit systems as DEC made many very different systems. Of those the PDP-8 series, 12 bit are interesting. PDP11 the 16bit line or for the unusual 18 bit PDP-7 or 36 bit PDP10. There is even emulation for PDP-1 (18bit). When you ask what is more versatile are you asking about the emulator or the emulated end system? For most the PDP-8 as its one system where the hardware and software is fairly understandable to the lowest levels. For the PDP-11 the variety of hardware and system configurations are nearly exceeded by operating system and user software.? Its also the definitive Unix machine to some. Its is one of my favorites either 11/73 as hardware or 11/70 as a sim. As to SIMs? SIMH is by far the most widely known and versatile, with it and software you can emulate most anything even something from your imagination. E-11 Aka Ersatz-11 is a very good PDP-11 emulator. There are no shortage of other simulators.? I'm sure everyone has their favorites. Me I'm into the actual hardware so I have PDP-8F, an assortment of PDP11s from the initial LSI-11 though the 11/73 hardware.? That and a boat load of MicroVAX systems.? I limit my DEC systems to that scope for space mostly. THe rest of the hardware in the collection is CP/M based (S100, Kaypro, Ampro...). So pick a DEC system that has interest and simulate it or all if you have time. Allison From robert626001 at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 11:40:05 2017 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:40:05 -0500 Subject: Is it really that quiet out there? In-Reply-To: <7747d65f-313f-d91d-ce24-9bf652fb4edd@jwsss.com> References: <7747d65f-313f-d91d-ce24-9bf652fb4edd@jwsss.com> Message-ID: The last one that I received was October 20th. Robert On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 2:27 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > Last one of those was a couple weeks ago. Then there were a bunch of backed > up ones. > > List has been steady and in real time (from what I've seen). > thanks > Jim > > > On 10/20/2017 11:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> Lately, I've received >> message "belches" > > From ethan at 757.org Tue Oct 24 11:58:43 2017 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Convex Computer Corporation manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does the content exist online / scanned? > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 01:29:37 +1100 > From: Unibus via cctalk > Reply-To: Unibus , > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Convex Computer Corporation manuals > > Anybody want some Convex Computer Corporation manuals on microfiche. The > titles are: > > - CONVEX C Guide > - CONVEX C Optimization Guide > - CONVEX FORTRAN User's Guide > - CONVEX FORTRAN Reference Manual > - CONVEX FORTRAN Optimization Guide > - CONVEX VECLIB User's Guide > - CONVEX LSQPACK User's Guide > > Free to a good home or it will be plastic recycling > -- : Ethan O'Toole From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 24 12:42:42 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 18:42:42 +0100 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <00ab01d34ca6$8e0bdaa0$aa238fe0$@gmail.com> References: <000b01d34c8b$5535a320$ffa0e960$@sc.rr.com> <00ab01d34ca6$8e0bdaa0$aa238fe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003101d34cef$7eca53c0$7c5efb40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade > via cctalk > Sent: 24 October 2017 10:01 > To: 'Kip Koon' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > Kip, > It depends on what your interest is! Of course PDP stood for "Programmed > Data Processor" > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmed_Data_Processor > > and avoids the use of the word computer because the backers of Digital did not > want them building a Computer. I believed it also helped sales as it by-passed > corporate purchasing edicts which said only central IT departments could buy > computers... > > The PDP8 is the smallest but most hackable, but things like Oscars 8I or the > SBC6120 which turns up from time to time (google SBC6120) mean that its > possible to have something approaching a physical PDP-8 to play with rather > than just emulation. But if small is beautiful then may be the machine for you. > These were used all over the place. Manchester University Medical School had > one connected to its IBM7090, Leeds to its KDF9. Really a revolution in > computing. Its amazing what folks got to run on these using only paper tape. > Eventually made in a Microprocessor with the Harris and Interrail 6100 and > then the Harris HD6120.. > > The PDP-11 covers a huge range of systems and I know there are still some > PDP-11's in service. At one time Barclays, a UK bank used them as Branch > Controllers so every branch had a PDP-11 and in those days there were many > more branches than there are now. I learnt BASIC on one at Salford University > in 1977. When I worked for the uk's Natural Environment Research Council we > must have had hundreds of the things. We used them to build "media > conversion" systems that would copy data from scientific instruments and to > build front end concentrators for our Honeywell L66. More capable than the > PDP-11 but possibly less easy to hack. Lots of different Operating Systems out > there but for some licensing is interesting. Was used to develop early Unix > > The VAX-11 is probably my favourite box. I have several physical VAXen all > with the VMS OS installed. Really gives a flavour of what interactive computing > was like in the 1970's and 1980's. Very capable but even less easy to hack, and > initially big and expensive, which is why the PDP-11 continued to be available > for many years. > > There is also the PDP-10/Dec System 10 which was claimed to be a Mainframe > but I never met one of these. Probably not for the faint hearted. > Ah the PDP10! Although the very first computer I used was a PDP11, it was so briefly that I really consider the PDP10 (in DECSYSTEM-20 form) to be my first computer. It is easy to emulate in SIMH, although the SIMH emulation is of a less capable processor (KS10) and I think KLH10 is the best emulator for that (but I have never used it). For general DEC goodness I would go for a PDP11 or a VAX, preferably both. And as Dave and others have pointed out, PDP was not really a line of computers, it was multiple lines of different computers. I forsee a *long* thread here. Regards Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 24 13:11:49 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 14:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? Message-ID: <20171024181149.6902018C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Kip Koon > f I were to have to decide on just one model DEC PDP system to run in a > DEC Emulator, which one would be the most useful, versatile and has the > most software available for it? To echo what others have said, when you say 'emulator', do you mean hardware (the usual meaning of emulator), or software (which would be a simulator)? And if you mean hardware, are you going to emulate the bus as well? Having said that, I think you should ask yourself 'what do you want to do with it'? The thing is there are a lot of DEC machines which are 'interesting', and have a lot of software available for them: the -8, -10, 11, -15 and VAX (dunno if you consider that a 'PDP') are all in that category. > I hear a lot about the PDP-11. I found out that there were 16 major PDP > models at one time so I'm not too sure which one to pick. They aren't really that different; many of them are more 'the optimal technology to implement in' changed over the (fairly) long life of the architecture, so many of models are where an earlier one was replaced by a more cost-effective equivalent. E.g. for one 'class', the /20 (TTL SSI) was followed by the /05 (microcoded TTL SSI), and then the /04 (TTL MSI), and then the /03 (LSI); in another the /40 was followed by the /34 and then the /23. Etc. There are really only 3 kinds of -11: - Those without memory management (the /20, etc) - Those with 'simple' memory management (the /40, etc) - Those with 'complex' memory management (all the others) Simple software will run on all three; more complex (e.g. Unix) only on the latter two. > Back in the day when Bill Gates and company 1st started out > ... a B/W photo of a young Bill Gates bending over the operator at what > looked like a very small computer. Maybe it was just a terminal. I > don't remember. I understand they did software development on a DEC PDP > of some sort. The very earliest version of their BASIC was done on PDP-10's running TOPS-10 - first the one at Harvard, and then some commercial time-sharing system in the Boston area. > I have many projects in the works already so I decided to setup a > software emulation of just one of the DEC PDP models. OK, so it's going to be just running a simulator? > I have heard a lot about the PDP-11 which if the information I read is > correct was 16-bits. in the world... The PDP-11 is the model I hear the > most about. Well, for good reason, I think. It was at one point (1980), the best-selling computer, and really made the minicomputer (yes, I know the -8 was the first successful mini, but their size/computing power range was a lot smaller than the -11, and so it didn't have as widespread a utilization as with the -11). It's also the machine that Unix was developed on, so if you want to play around with the 'classic' early Unixes (e.g. Version 6), you'll be wanting to go with the -11. Finally, it is to me the finest architecture ever, in terms of elegance, and bang/buck - the power they squeezed into a 16-bit instruction is pretty mind-blowing. If you want to see a really elegant design, look at the -11. A lot of later architectures stole a lot of ideas from the -11. If you want to go the -11/V6 route, there are instructions for doing so here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Running_Unix_v6_in_SIMH http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_UNIX_Sixth_Edition_on_Ersatz-11 and I have a very detailed page for doing so with the Ersatz-11 simulator (which is _very_ fast, and easy to work with), with a lot of useful pre-built disks, and tools, here: http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html The other one I would point to as 'interesting' is the PDP-10, _especially_ if you run ITS on it. There's a very complete and detailed page here: https://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html for bringing it up under SIMH. There's also KLH10 as a simulator, which I know a lot of people like for running ITS; instructions here: http://its.victor.se/wiki/setup which has a lot of detail about how to get things running _on_ your ITS once you have it up. Please let us know what you decide... :-) Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 24 13:20:10 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 19:20:10 +0100 Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <003601d34cf4$ba6615e0$2f3241a0$@ntlworld.com> Actually I didn't say they have leaked, but I do say that they could only have leaked from the bottom, but you can't tell. This does appear to be what happened to some of the capacitors I had on the other PSU I repaired recently, although again I can't be sure. However there *is* something on the board to which dirt and little shards from the heat sinks appears to be sticking at least a bit, but perhaps it is just dirt that has absorbed humidity. Certainly the board has been in some kind of humid environment, the case itself is quite rusty in places. So it is probably more like someone else suggested, and not capacitor leakage but a humid/damp storage environment. Either way, does anyone know if those heatsinks are a standard part? If not I am not averse to replacing them with something else, but it would be nice to keep things as original as possible. Regards Rob From: dwight [mailto:dkelvey at hotmail.com] Sent: 23 October 2017 23:10 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU I don't see why you have assumed that one of the capacitors has leaked. The corrosion could have come from water or condensation onto the board. I don't see any corrosion on the components. Dwight _____ From: cctalk > on behalf of Rob Jarratt via cctalk > Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 1:45:42 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU I am now looking at the H7826 PSU that came with a TURBOchannel Extender. It looks like there may have been capacitor leakage and some heatsinks will need to be replaced. I have posted pictures here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2017/10/23/corroded-h7826-power-supply/ So two questions: 1. Any suggestion on how to clean the board? Some of the corners are a bit inaccessible to reach with just a cotton bud and isopropyl. 2. Do those heat sinks have a particular name/spec that I can search for? Thanks Rob From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Tue Oct 24 12:08:38 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 19:08:38 +0200 Subject: Convex Computer Corporation manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/24/17, 4:29 PM, "cctech on behalf of Unibus via cctech" wrote: >Anybody want some Convex Computer Corporation manuals on microfiche. The >titles are: > > - CONVEX C Guide > - CONVEX C Optimization Guide > - CONVEX FORTRAN User's Guide > - CONVEX FORTRAN Reference Manual > - CONVEX FORTRAN Optimization Guide > - CONVEX VECLIB User's Guide > - CONVEX LSQPACK User's Guide > >Free to a good home or it will be plastic recycling Yes, please! I?d very happily pay for shipping to the Netherlands. I have several Convex systems, two C1?s, a C220, and a C240. The C220 is working now, I?m still trying to bring the others back to life. Camiel From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Tue Oct 24 12:08:38 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 19:08:38 +0200 Subject: Convex Computer Corporation manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/24/17, 4:29 PM, "cctech on behalf of Unibus via cctech" wrote: >Anybody want some Convex Computer Corporation manuals on microfiche. The >titles are: > > - CONVEX C Guide > - CONVEX C Optimization Guide > - CONVEX FORTRAN User's Guide > - CONVEX FORTRAN Reference Manual > - CONVEX FORTRAN Optimization Guide > - CONVEX VECLIB User's Guide > - CONVEX LSQPACK User's Guide > >Free to a good home or it will be plastic recycling Yes, please! I?d very happily pay for shipping to the Netherlands. I have several Convex systems, two C1?s, a C220, and a C240. The C220 is working now, I?m still trying to bring the others back to life. Camiel From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Oct 24 12:36:35 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 13:36:35 -0400 Subject: VCF PNW (Seattle) exhibitor registration is open Message-ID: <3cd11bf0-752d-24e4-0f4f-abe6140080e9@snarc.net> Hello cctalkers! Join us as an exhibitor for the inaugural Vintage Computer Festival Pacific-Northwest, Feb. 10-11, at the Living Computer Museum in Seattle. http://www.vcfed.org/registration/exhibitor_register-online.php?event_id=5 ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 24 15:13:03 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 20:13:03 +0000 Subject: HP 21mx/whatever processor works with doublesided key... i forgot model# In-Reply-To: <129e62.20e31a8e.471c17eb@aol.com> References: <129e62.20e31a8e.471c17eb@aol.com> Message-ID: Most real lock smiths can make a key for it. Just remove the lock and bring it to them. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ed via cctalk Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 8:24:28 PM To: jwest at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: HP 21mx/whatever processor works with doublesided key... i forgot model# IT RUNS MEMORY RESIDENT LOADED FROM PAPER TAPE? ED# In a message dated 10/20/2017 7:37:48 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: "Forth-like" system that is well developed/flushedout. So in addition to BASIC, you get oh-so-many-wonderful-things. I very highly recommend that anyone messing with 21mx/1000 systems take a good look at HP-IPL/OS. From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Oct 24 20:31:16 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 20:31:16 -0500 Subject: Acorn, Apple, IBM old computers up for auction (via Proxibid) Message-ID: <20171025013116.GA22757@lonesome.com> There are a few lots that may be of interest to people on this list. Disclaimer: I have no connection to any of this. I just browse proxibid.com once in a while. The overall link: https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Michael-F-Dilliard-Auction-amp-Realty-Company-LLC/5700/AuctionsByCompany.asp?ahid=5700&tl=0#13///endingsoonest//all/5700/0/1/ The particular lots: ACORN computer programs https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/ACORN-computer-programs/38893071/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893071&origin=1 Vintage computer lot (Apple) https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Vintage-computer-lot-APPLE-external-disk-drive-user-manuals-more/38893094/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893094&origin=1 APPLE Graphics Tablet + Acorn https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Vintage-APPLE-Graphics-Tablet-British-BBC-Microcomputer-System/38893095/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893095&origin=1 Vintage APPLE IIe https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Vintage-APPLE-IIe-computer-keyboard-monitor-external-drive/38893096/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893096&origin=1 IBM PC Jr computer lot https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/IBM-PC-Jr-computer-lot/38893111/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893111&origin=1 (editor's note for the last item: "ew.") mcl From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Tue Oct 24 21:40:01 2017 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 22:40:01 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> Hi Guys, I think I know so little of the PDP systems that I really didn't know how to correctly phrase the question in PDP speak in my 1st email so let me try. I was initially thinking of a strictly software only solution running on my Windows 7 x64 laptop only since the only hardware based simulator I have is the PiDP-8/I which is not up and running yet. I'm primarily a Motorola Processor man so after sending that 1st email I found a gentleman's web site who built a PDP-11 Console front panel using a 6802 on the core board at 1st then redesigned the core board to use the 6809 and an I/O board working together as the controller for the PDP-11 front panel. The core board's serial port is connected to a PC running SimH modified to communicate needed data to the front panel controller. The url link to his web site is below. < http://www.pdp-11.nl/> Click on the "My Projects" link on the left to see a quick summary of all of his homebrew projects of which this is only one. Now back to the core board. Of course the 6809 can be replaced with the 6309 as well. Well, that really sparked my interest as I am in the middle of designing a Motorola Multi-Processor based single board computer board. It will have the ability to support all of the following processors however ONLY 1 CPU can be populated on the PCB at a time as ALL address, data and control busses are tied together using one common flash/eprom, ram, 2 serial ports and 4 - 8-bit parallel ports with 2 special control bits on each port. The processors that will be supported are the 6802, 6809, 6309 and the following 68HC11 sub-variants A1, A8, E2, F1 & K1. So now my software only DEC Emulation idea is splitting into 2 thought processes. 1st, a software simulator only way yields all currently supported PDPs which still presents a problem for me and that is which PDP do I teach myself and set up. So far, it seems that you guys are saying that the PDP-11/70 is a good choice whether SimH or Erzata-11 is used. A while back I found the PDP-8/e WinEight software simulator as one choice as well. SIMH can run them all. Still though, which one? 2nd, a hardware emulator running a simulator written in 6809 assembly language for the PDP-8/e running on a 6809 Core & I/O board system seems like a good choice for me as I understand the 6809 microprocessor, the 6821 Peripheral Interface Adapter and the 6850 Asynchronous Communications Interface Adapter chips used on the core board reasonably well. There is a PDP-11 version of this hardware emulator available with only 1 more requirement and that is SIMH is running on a PC which communicates via serial port the data needed to control the PDP-11 front panel. 3rd, and this is a big factor in the choice of DEC PDP computer to pick for simulation or emulation and that is the small cash flow and itty bitty storage space I have available to me. So with what I have to work with, my current interests and skill level of PCB design using the Motorola 8-bit processors as well as using Windows 7 x64 for software only simulations, which PDP should I chose? The choice so far it seems is the PDP-11/70. Remember I still have no idea beyond some searching on the internet what boards and peripherals a PDP-11/70 consists of. For that matter, I don't know what boards and peripherals are in the PDP-8/e or PDP-8/I either. I hope this helps you all understand me and my desires a little better. Please keep your ideas, suggestions and questions coming. You have my complete attention! I'm sitting on the edge of my seat as it were. :) I'm beginning to see that this is going to be a very long term project. Cool! I need something to keep my mind sharp. Take care my friends. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/User:Computerdoc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kip Koon via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 1:44 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? Hi DEC Enthusiast's, If I were to have to decide on just one model DEC PDP system to run in a DEC Emulator, which one would be the most useful, versatile and has the most software available for it? I have only ever used a real PDP-8/e system way back in high school so I'm not up to par on any other model of DEC PDP system and I only know BASIC on the PDP-8/e so not much there either. I hear a lot about the PDP-11. I found out that there were 16 major PDP models at one time so I'm not too sure which one to pick. I built Oscar Vermeulen's PiDP-8/I which I'm waiting on 1 part for. Other than that project which is in a holding pattern at the moment, I have no other PDP anything running in any form. Back in the day when Bill Gates and company 1st started out, I had always wondered how they developed their very 1st software program - Altair Basic. I was pleasantly surprised one day when I saw a B/W photo of a young Bill Gates bending over the operator at what looked like a very small computer. Maybe it was just a terminal. I don't remember. I understand they did software development on a DEC PDP of some sort. Finding this out regenerated my interest in the DEC PDP line of computers. I have many projects in the works already so I decided to setup a software emulation of just one of the DEC PDP models. I have heard a lot about the PDP-11 which if the information I read is correct was 16-bits. My PiDP-8/I is 12 bits. I understand the PDP 10 was 36-bits and the PDP-15 was 18-bit. The PDP-11 is the model I hear the most about. I also have some experience on some version of a VAX when I was in the Air Force so I'm thinking of getting a VAX emulation going at some point too. So if I'm going to do this, what suggestions, pointers, experiences, etcetera do you guys have for me. I am very interested in the DEC PDP equipment though next to no experience so I have no basis to make a decision. This is a serious request so I would definitely like to hear what you all have to say. If you have read this far, thank you. Take care my friends. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/User:Computerdoc From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Oct 24 22:26:30 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 23:26:30 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: Related to DEC emulation: is there a visual Straight-8 simulator? I'd like to practice working the front panel and such. From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Oct 25 00:06:12 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 01:06:12 -0400 Subject: HP 21mx/whatever processor works with doublesided key... i forgot model# In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15f51ec7521-c09-621f@webjas-vaa115.srv.aolmail.net> OK check some other messages... keys on ebay pretty reasonable... But yes you are right... locksmiths can make keys to fit... Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 dwight wrote: p {margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0} Most real lock smiths can make a key for it. Just remove the lock and bring it to them. Dwight From: cctalk on behalf of Ed via cctalk Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 8:24:28 PM To: jwest at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: HP 21mx/whatever processor works with doublesided key... i forgot model# ? IT RUNS MEMORY RESIDENT? LOADED? FROM PAPER TAPE? ED# ? ? In a message dated 10/20/2017 7:37:48 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,? jwest at classiccmp.org writes: "Forth-like" system that is well developed/flushedout. So in? addition to BASIC, you get oh-so-many-wonderful-things. I very highly? recommend that anyone messing with 21mx/1000 systems take a good look at? HP-IPL/OS. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 07:20:07 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 08:20:07 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 11:26 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Related to DEC emulation: is there a visual Straight-8 simulator? I'd like > to practice working the front panel and such. > I don't think there is one. The PDP 8i is the closest thing but there are I think 26 switches at the bottom the 8i, I think only 18 at the bottom of the straight 8. They thus can't be the same exactly but it may be that the straight 8 is the same as the 8i, if you use only switches that appear on both systems (no step counter on the straight 8). Dave G will know. b From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 13:26:00 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:26:00 +0200 Subject: HP 2640S terminal for sale in closed Facebook group in Sweden. Message-ID: https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/s720x720/22713265_10156127179398570_2013874287015352972_o.jpg?oh=bcb54c378ce5412749d1ad7ea87afb93&oe=5A777F30 I am not the seller. It looks like it is working. The seller confirms that there are some screen mold. If there is anyone that is interested I can get you in contact with the seller. /Mattis From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed Oct 25 13:55:17 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:55:17 +0000 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <20171024181149.6902018C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171024181149.6902018C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 11:12 AM >> From: Kip Koon >> Back in the day when Bill Gates and company 1st started out ... a B/W photo >> of a young Bill Gates bending over the operator at what looked like a very >> small computer. Maybe it was just a terminal. I don't remember. I understand >> they did software development on a DEC PDP of some sort. > The very earliest version of their BASIC was done on PDP-10's running TOPS-10 > - first the one at Harvard, and then some commercial time-sharing system in > the Boston area. Noel, do have a reference for "some commercial time-sharing system in the Boston area"? From Paul Allen's autobiography, the Harvard system was followed immediately by their move to Albuquerque, where they leased time on the local school board's PDP-10, and that's what my friends who worked for Micro-soft back then have told me, as well. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Wed Oct 25 14:55:32 2017 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:55:32 +0100 Subject: Digression - Ah Yes!! The PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000501d34dcb$37fd3fc0$a7f7bf40$@co.uk> Beginning of the 70's I was using a pdp-10 at TSL (Time Sharing Limited, UK) over a phone line writing logic simulation software in Fortran. Remember it fondly, especially the number of times I needed to redial in and try to reconnect to my session. Still smell the teletype. Cost about ?10 for the 20 seconds cpu-time or so just to compile the program!!! Roll on a few years and I was actually at the console of a 10 at Smiths doing IC layout graphics interactively on their Lady Jane suite. What a great single-user machine! (and I still remember my username and password from TSL, typed it so often it burned in). Bob > -----Original Message----- > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 18:42:42 +0100 > From: "Rob Jarratt" > To: "'Dave Wade'" , "'General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" , "'Kip > Koon'" > > Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?. > Message-ID: <003101d34cef$7eca53c0$7c5efb40$@ntlworld.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Ah the PDP10! Although the very first computer I used was a PDP11, it > was so briefly that I really consider the PDP10 (in DECSYSTEM-20 form) > to be my first computer. It is easy to emulate in SIMH, although the > SIMH emulation is of a less capable processor (KS10) and I think KLH10 > is the best emulator for that (but I have never used it). > ... > > Rob From shadoooo at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 15:06:03 2017 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 22:06:03 +0200 Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, the vertical heat sinks for the TO220 with this design are fairly common, I saw them many times on various boards. However, as they are simply aluminum parts, you can clean them for sure. After removing the screw, you could try simply with an hard brush. If badly corroded, remove the bubbles of oxide with a thin sanding paper, then you could restore the opaque aspect submerging for few seconds in caustic sodium solution. Be aware to protect eyes and skin! Replace the RIFA X2 capacitor!!!! Andrea From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 15:10:43 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 13:10:43 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 5:20 AM, william degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 11:26 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Related to DEC emulation: is there a visual Straight-8 simulator? I'd > like > > to practice working the front panel and such. > > > > I don't think there is one. The PDP 8i is the closest thing but there are > I think 26 switches at the bottom the 8i, I think only 18 at the bottom of > the straight 8. Both the 8/i and the Straight-8 have the same number of switches (26). Their function is identical. The 8/i has a few additional lights, however. - Josh > They thus can't be the same exactly but it may be that the > straight 8 is the same as the 8i, if you use only switches that appear on > both systems (no step counter on the straight 8). Dave G will know. > > b > From pb at pbcl.net Wed Oct 25 15:20:16 2017 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:20:16 +0100 Subject: Fujitsu M2235S In-Reply-To: References: <1508610676.32728.11.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: <1508962816.32728.17.camel@pbcl.net> On Mon, 2017-10-23 at 20:14 -0500, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > There appears to be a photo of the internals here, if that helps at > all: > > http://museum.ipsj.or.jp/computer/device/magnetic_disk/images/0011_03 > _l.jpg > > ... it's a little small, so hard to tell what's going on for sure! I > don't? > see any obvious locking mechanism, though. > > There's a Fujitsu M2333KS on ebay - item # 182218376023 - which > appears to? > be quite similar in layout. That one appears to have some form of? > positioner / track 0 sensor accessible from outside the HDA if the > logic? > board is removed - is that true of the 2235 too? Yes, the stepper motor and track 0 sensor is external and, as you say, you can get at it with the logic board removed (or, to a lesser extent, though the side of the chassis with the logic board still in situ). I took the lid off the chamber in the end and confirmed that there was no latch and the head assembly itself was free to move. It seemed that the stepper motor itself was the bit that was stuck. So, emboldened with the knowledge that I probably wasn't about to snap the positioner arm off, I gave it a rather more enthusiastic shove from outside and it now does move a bit. I was able to recover the data from the first 26 cylinders but it won't seek beyond track 25 for some reason, possibly just more mechanical resistance inside the stepper. There doesn't seem to be anywhere obvious to add lubrication so I suppose I will just have to try a bit more force and hope that this frees it up! Phil From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 25 16:15:35 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 22:15:35 +0100 Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006f01d34dd6$66bae1e0$3430a5a0$@ntlworld.com> Thanks for the suggestions. I will have to desolder the heatsinks from the board though, and then I can try a good clean up as suggested. I know about those RIFAs, the H7878 had one but it seemed still OK and this one looks to be in good condition, do they show signs of cracking before they go? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of shadoooo > via cctalk > Sent: 25 October 2017 21:06 > To: cctalk > Subject: RE: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU > > Hello, > the vertical heat sinks for the TO220 with this design are fairly common, I saw > them many times on various boards. > However, as they are simply aluminum parts, you can clean them for sure. > After removing the screw, you could try simply with an hard brush. > If badly corroded, remove the bubbles of oxide with a thin sanding paper, then > you could restore the opaque aspect submerging for few seconds in caustic > sodium solution. Be aware to protect eyes and skin! > > Replace the RIFA X2 capacitor!!!! > > Andrea From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 25 16:18:22 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 22:18:22 +0100 Subject: Digression - Ah Yes!! The PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <000501d34dcb$37fd3fc0$a7f7bf40$@co.uk> References: <000501d34dcb$37fd3fc0$a7f7bf40$@co.uk> Message-ID: <007001d34dd6$ca2e7a20$5e8b6e60$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Adamson via cctalk > Sent: 25 October 2017 20:56 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Digression - Ah Yes!! The PDP-10 > > Beginning of the 70's I was using a pdp-10 at TSL (Time Sharing Limited, UK) > over a phone line writing logic simulation software in Fortran. Remember it > fondly, especially the number of times I needed to redial in and try to > reconnect to my session. Still smell the teletype. Cost about ?10 for the 20 > seconds cpu-time or so just to compile the program!!! > I used to use the DECSYSTEM-20 from a Teletype (until they got replaced by VDUs). That is why I really wanted a nice Model 33 ASR, which I now have. I sometimes connect it up to SIMH running TOPS-20 to relive the happiest part of my school days. > Roll on a few years and I was actually at the console of a 10 at Smiths doing IC > layout graphics interactively on their Lady Jane suite. What a great single-user > machine! > > (and I still remember my username and password from TSL, typed it so often it > burned in). > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 25 16:18:22 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 22:18:22 +0100 Subject: Digression - Ah Yes!! The PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <000501d34dcb$37fd3fc0$a7f7bf40$@co.uk> References: <000501d34dcb$37fd3fc0$a7f7bf40$@co.uk> Message-ID: <007001d34dd6$ca2e7a20$5e8b6e60$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Adamson via cctalk > Sent: 25 October 2017 20:56 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Digression - Ah Yes!! The PDP-10 > > Beginning of the 70's I was using a pdp-10 at TSL (Time Sharing Limited, UK) > over a phone line writing logic simulation software in Fortran. Remember it > fondly, especially the number of times I needed to redial in and try to > reconnect to my session. Still smell the teletype. Cost about ?10 for the 20 > seconds cpu-time or so just to compile the program!!! > I used to use the DECSYSTEM-20 from a Teletype (until they got replaced by VDUs). That is why I really wanted a nice Model 33 ASR, which I now have. I sometimes connect it up to SIMH running TOPS-20 to relive the happiest part of my school days. > Roll on a few years and I was actually at the console of a 10 at Smiths doing IC > layout graphics interactively on their Lady Jane suite. What a great single-user > machine! > > (and I still remember my username and password from TSL, typed it so often it > burned in). > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Oct 25 18:22:21 2017 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 19:22:21 -0400 Subject: Cyclops page (Popular Electronics and Cromemco) Message-ID: <65e901d34de8$1c792850$556b78f0$@verizon.net> Hi, In case anyone is interested, I have finally cobbled together a web page that documents the construction of the Popular Electronics Cyclops camera that I exhibited at the 2016 VCF East. It also documents my work to produce a Cromemco S-100 Cyclops that I hope to exhibit at the 2018 VCF East. The page is here: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/cyclops/index.html The Cromemco S-100 Cyclops starts down the page a bit. Bill S. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Oct 25 20:23:45 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:23:45 -0400 Subject: Digression - Ah Yes!! The PDP-10 Message-ID: oddly there were times you could dial into a broken dec 10 connect and end up connected to someone elses session.... Ed# In a message dated 10/25/2017 2:18:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Adamson via cctalk > Sent: 25 October 2017 20:56 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Digression - Ah Yes!! The PDP-10 > > Beginning of the 70's I was using a pdp-10 at TSL (Time Sharing Limited, UK) > over a phone line writing logic simulation software in Fortran. Remember it > fondly, especially the number of times I needed to redial in and try to > reconnect to my session. Still smell the teletype. Cost about ?10 for the 20 > seconds cpu-time or so just to compile the program!!! > I used to use the DECSYSTEM-20 from a Teletype (until they got replaced by VDUs). That is why I really wanted a nice Model 33 ASR, which I now have. I sometimes connect it up to SIMH running TOPS-20 to relive the happiest part of my school days. > Roll on a few years and I was actually at the console of a 10 at Smiths doing IC > layout graphics interactively on their Lady Jane suite. What a great single-user > machine! > > (and I still remember my username and password from TSL, typed it so often it > burned in). > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Oct 25 20:23:45 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:23:45 -0400 Subject: Digression - Ah Yes!! The PDP-10 Message-ID: oddly there were times you could dial into a broken dec 10 connect and end up connected to someone elses session.... Ed# In a message dated 10/25/2017 2:18:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Adamson via cctalk > Sent: 25 October 2017 20:56 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Digression - Ah Yes!! The PDP-10 > > Beginning of the 70's I was using a pdp-10 at TSL (Time Sharing Limited, UK) > over a phone line writing logic simulation software in Fortran. Remember it > fondly, especially the number of times I needed to redial in and try to > reconnect to my session. Still smell the teletype. Cost about ?10 for the 20 > seconds cpu-time or so just to compile the program!!! > I used to use the DECSYSTEM-20 from a Teletype (until they got replaced by VDUs). That is why I really wanted a nice Model 33 ASR, which I now have. I sometimes connect it up to SIMH running TOPS-20 to relive the happiest part of my school days. > Roll on a few years and I was actually at the console of a 10 at Smiths doing IC > layout graphics interactively on their Lady Jane suite. What a great single-user > machine! > > (and I still remember my username and password from TSL, typed it so often it > burned in). > From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Oct 25 21:10:01 2017 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 03:10:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: <003601d34cf4$ba6615e0$2f3241a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> <003601d34cf4$ba6615e0$2f3241a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Oct 2017, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Actually I didn't say they have leaked, but I do say that they could only > have leaked from the bottom, but you can't tell. This does appear to be what > happened to some of the capacitors I had on the other PSU I repaired > recently, although again I can't be sure. However there *is* something on > the board to which dirt and little shards from the heat sinks appears to be > sticking at least a bit, but perhaps it is just dirt that has absorbed > humidity. Certainly the board has been in some kind of humid environment, > the case itself is quite rusty in places. So it is probably more like > someone else suggested, and not capacitor leakage but a humid/damp storage > environment. This Nichicon PL 4700?F/10V part as well as all the Chemi-Con SXF parts have certainly leaked in almost all the H7826 PSUs I have (which have been the worst in this respect), and consequently the PCB has become sticky in the output filter area. Beware that in addition to the output filters there's another SXF part just next to the input filter capacitor; it's visible on one of your photos, next to the lightning bolt sticker. FWIW, Maciej From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 21:20:09 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:20:09 -0500 Subject: Is it really that quiet out there? Message-ID: <59f1465d.06579d0a.a3564.e806@mx.google.com> Yes, but the irony if us replying on-list isn't lost. -------- Original message --------From: Robert via cctalk Date: 10/24/17 11:40 AM (GMT-06:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Is it really that quiet out there? The last one that I received was October 20th. Robert From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 03:32:20 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 01:32:20 -0700 Subject: Interesting mini-doc on Gilbert Hyatt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is an interesting mini-documentary on the fight Gilbert Hyatt (patent holder for the concept of the microcomputer) had with the Franchise Tax Board of State of California: https://youtu.be/rfyPZdSBwBQ Sellam From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 05:47:34 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 03:47:34 -0700 Subject: New Items Up for Sale from Sellam's Collection Message-ID: Here is the latest batch of items up for sale. Full running list with updates are here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?58709-New-Items-For-Sale-Check-the-List-and-Make-an-Offer-or-Request&p=482757#post482757 New items for October 26, 2017: Boards: 3Com Corp IE Controller (1982) ASST 0345-03 REV J - very early(?) IBM PC ethernet controller; BNC and AUI connectors; good condition, maybe probably still works [ http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/3Com/3C500_Mar83.pdf] 3Com Etherlink II ASSY 2227-00 REV 08 - 8-bit PC ethernet controller; BNC and AUI connectors; excellent condition HP 82335 8-bit HP-IB ISA board - excellent condition - $35 Future Domain TMC-850MER "Apple Signal Port" 8-bit ISA SCSI board - has socket for BIOS EPROM; comes with 50-pin ribbon and Y-splitter power cables; like new; [http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-9546.html] - $30 Unpopulated (New Old Stock) Motorola MC68000 Educational Computer board - like new condition - $20 shipped anywhere in USA Sirius Systems Tech peripheral mainboard - for Victor 9000/ACT Sirius 1 computers; excellent physical condition, unknown functional condition - $13 shipped anywhere in USA Peripherals Panasonic Interface Adaptor RP-K100 - parallel port interface for Panasonic word processor(?) - $5 Kroy Digital Cassette Drive Cat. No. 1674400 "290 Keyboard" - digital microcassette data drive; 34-pin dual row connector; includes digital microcassette tape - $15 APCON ACI-2016 SCSI Booster - 68-pin SCSI booster, w/power supply - $10 Advanced Electronic Applications PK-64 PAKRATT-64 - packet radio modem for Commodore 64; excellent condition - $60 Remex 5.25" drive - inside external enclosure with power supply and 34-pin connector; excellent condition inside and out - $15 HP 82950A Modem - includes severely water damaged but mostly readable users manual - $45 HP 00085-15001 Mass Storage ROM - HP-85 mass storage ROM, allows HP 85A to connect to disc drives - $25 shipped anywhere in USA Avatex 1200HC 300/1200 external modem - $5 Atari SC1224 (Version 2) color monitor - powers up, has raster, do not have cable to test - $70 Atari SH305 MegaFile 30 - contains Seagate ST-238R hard drive; powers up, drive spins up, sounds healthy; case was slightly hacked by a less than skilled hand to add status LEDs to the front as well as a slot for a 3.5" removable drive (not present; includes custom internal 34-pin slot connector to external DIN connector cable) - $50 Atari 1064 - 48K parallel port memory module for Atari XL series - $20 Atari SX212 Modem - for IBM PC and compatibles; in original box with manual, power supply, and data cable BMUGNET adaptors for Macintosh - made by Bay Area Mac User Group; pre-Farallon PhoneNet adaptors; works similar to Apple LocalTalk - 2/$10 Sun Type 4 optical mouse - $5 Commodore 1531 Datasette - $15 Plus Development Corp. Impulse dual external hard drive unit - same maker as Plus Hardcard; includes (2) Conner CP-340 40MB RLL drives, powers up and drives spin up with healthy sound; unable to test further; requires DB-19 cable and PC interface board to be fully useful - $20 DSP 225 Tempest InkJet Printer - HP ThinkJet Model 2225A (HP-IB interface) fitted inside an all black TEMPEST resistant enclosure, fine working condition - $75 Computers and Such Tektronix 4050 - complete working system in excellent condition with manuals and software on QIC Apricot F1 - CPU only; powers up, blurts out some strange "beep" and seeks a boot disk; (2) internal 3" drivesl unable to test further Motorola Envoy - (3) units with (1) charge station and extra battery Commodore 16 - untested - $30 Osborne 1 - original tan case; fairly low serial number (A01284); powers up, screen is good, tries to boot from disk drive; very good cosmetic condition with some scuffs, leather handle is broken - $160 HP 7475A Plotter - full complement of pens are mostly dried out but it performs the demo function admirably; excellent condition - $85 Lynx 460 floppy disk drive exerciser w/User's Manual and Xerox Supplement - $25 Atari Mega ST4 - powers up, seems to boot from the floppy drive, no monitor cable so unable to test further; includes Practical Solutions Tweety Board (adds true stereo) - $250 Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 100 - works great; very good condition with minor yellowing and a couple scratches; includes form fitting faux leather case in excellent condition - $40 Miscellaneous Dolch Logic Instruments 9604 uP Trace Unit - logic analyzer module for National Semiconductor NSC-800 microprocessor - $15 Tandy data cable - 34-pin slotted connector to Centronics male connector, approx. 10' - $5 As always, please send inquiries to me directly via e-mail at for best results. Thanks! Sellam From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 05:51:53 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 03:51:53 -0700 Subject: FOR SALE: Macintosh Performa 450 Message-ID: I have a nice, working Macintosh Performa 450 for sale, details here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?60274-Apple-Macintosh-Performa-450-w-keyboard-amp-mouse Thanks! Sellam From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 06:07:08 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 07:07:08 -0400 Subject: Digression - Ah Yes!! The PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <007001d34dd6$ca2e7a20$5e8b6e60$@ntlworld.com> References: <000501d34dcb$37fd3fc0$a7f7bf40$@co.uk> <007001d34dd6$ca2e7a20$5e8b6e60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 10/25/17 5:18 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctech wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert >> Adamson via cctalk >> Sent: 25 October 2017 20:56 >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Digression - Ah Yes!! The PDP-10 >> >> Beginning of the 70's I was using a pdp-10 at TSL (Time Sharing Limited, > UK) >> over a phone line writing logic simulation software in Fortran. Remember > it >> fondly, especially the number of times I needed to redial in and try to >> reconnect to my session. Still smell the teletype. Cost about ?10 for the > 20 >> seconds cpu-time or so just to compile the program!!! >> > I used to use the DECSYSTEM-20 from a Teletype (until they got replaced by > VDUs). That is why I really wanted a nice Model 33 ASR, which I now have. I > sometimes connect it up to SIMH running TOPS-20 to relive the happiest part > of my school days. > > >> Roll on a few years and I was actually at the console of a 10 at Smiths > doing IC >> layout graphics interactively on their Lady Jane suite. What a great > single-user >> machine! >> >> (and I still remember my username and password from TSL, typed it so often > it >> burned in). >> My experience with DEC PDP-10 is 1970-71, the BOCES LIRCs system. A PDP01 and PDP-8I (the timeshare system from the year before). It was a timeshare system spanning two counties with over 300 highschool users.? Actual loads ran from about 150 to as high as 300 where all the terminal lines and concentrater lines were in use. Most were 100baud though at the site there were 8 lines at as high as 4800.? Spent my time as user and part time system monitor at the site.?? My favorite terminal then was a Hazeltine H1000 class TTY. The processor was the first version a KA10 with 64kwords of core initially and later 128K with an added 128K swapping drum.? OS was TOPS 10. Really liked the machine and it was pretty to look at with the programmers console.? Favorite core location to watch was 150Q. Allison From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 26 09:33:44 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 07:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Items Up for Sale from Sellam's Collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Advanced Electronic Applications PK-64 PAKRATT-64 - packet radio modem for > Commodore 64; excellent condition - $60 Is this complete? (cables, manual, etc) Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 10:12:29 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:12:29 +0200 Subject: Acorn, Apple, IBM old computers up for auction (via Proxibid) In-Reply-To: <20171025013116.GA22757@lonesome.com> References: <20171025013116.GA22757@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 25 October 2017 at 03:31, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > There are a few lots that may be of interest to people on this list. > > Disclaimer: I have no connection to any of this. I just browse proxibid.com > once in a while. > > The overall link: > > https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Michael-F-Dilliard-Auction-amp-Realty-Company-LLC/5700/AuctionsByCompany.asp?ahid=5700&tl=0#13///endingsoonest//all/5700/0/1/ > > The particular lots: > > ACORN computer programs https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/ACORN-computer-programs/38893071/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893071&origin=1 > Vintage computer lot (Apple) https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Vintage-computer-lot-APPLE-external-disk-drive-user-manuals-more/38893094/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893094&origin=1 > APPLE Graphics Tablet + Acorn https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Vintage-APPLE-Graphics-Tablet-British-BBC-Microcomputer-System/38893095/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893095&origin=1 > Vintage APPLE IIe https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Vintage-APPLE-IIe-computer-keyboard-monitor-external-drive/38893096/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893096&origin=1 > IBM PC Jr computer lot https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/IBM-PC-Jr-computer-lot/38893111/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893111&origin=1 > > (editor's note for the last item: "ew.") > > mcl Reposted on FB -- with credit but no email. Hope that's OK. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 26 11:03:54 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:03:54 -0700 Subject: SDS 940 BASIC (was Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?) In-Reply-To: References: <20171024181149.6902018C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9030af97-991c-4a6b-1b1d-38f2b2aecd74@bitsavers.org> On 10/25/17 11:55 AM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > Noel, do have a reference for "some commercial time-sharing system in the > Boston area"? From Paul Allen's autobiography, the Harvard system was followed > immediately by their move to Albuquerque, where they leased time on the local > school board's PDP-10, and that's what my friends who worked for Micro-soft > back then have told me, as well. Harvard had an SDS 940, which shipped with a version of Berkeley's timesharing system. Tymshare's version of that system was significantly improved, and included "Super BASIC". SDS's OS was replaced with Tymshare's at Harvard because the original was so bad, and so they were exposed to that version of BASIC. PA told me that was the influence for M-S's BASIC extensions. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 26 14:16:11 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? Message-ID: <20171026191611.D622618C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Kip Koon > I was initially thinking of a strictly software only solution Whatever you eventually do in the way of hardware, it might be a good idea to start with this. You can get familiar with whatever OS you decide to go with, and get used to its tools, get to know the instruction set of that machine, etc, etc. So then, if you do do a hardware project, it won't be such a big gulp, and you'll have the knowledge base covering all the above already there to draw on. > which still presents a problem for me and that is which PDP do I teach > myself and set up. Probably the way to answer that is, if you're going to build hardware at some point, a combination of 'what's out there that I can get to talk to', and 'how complicated a beast are we talking about'. For the first, there's a lot of QBUS stuff around, some UNIBUS, and basically zilch on the PDP-10 or PDP-15 front. For the second, most -11's (both QBUS and UNIBUS) are relatively simple and straightforward. Any kind of PDP-10 is pretty complex (depending on if you emulate the original busses, or not). > 3rd, and this is a big factor in the choice of DEC PDP computer to pick > for simulation or emulation and that is the small cash flow and itty > bitty storage space I have available to me. Noted. > The choice so far it seems is the PDP-11/70. If all you're doing is simulation (software), the -11/70 would be fine. It's no more work to set up than one of the other timesharing-capable models; it's only slightly more complicated than say, an -11/45, _from the programmer's point of view_ (there's a UNIBUS map as well as the usual memory mapping hardware), but if you're running an existing OS, that should not affect you. > Remember I still have no idea ... what boards and peripherals > a PDP-11/70 consists of. Hardware-wise, the -11/70 could be a complex project - it depends on exactly how much you try and emulate, a full emulation could be a very complex undertaking indeed. The thing is that while the /70 looks to the programmer a lot like one of the simpler models, the hardware is quite a lot more complicated: there is a cache, a separate memory bus, high-speed I/I controllers with their own special bus to the devices (MASSBUS), etc. It's basically an -11/45 with a bunch of extra stuff glued onto the sides of it to boost the performance; the board count went from 10 (w/o floating point, which adds an extra 4) to a minimum of of 16 (w/o FP), plus 4 for each high-speed I/O controller (up to 4). Now, if all you're doing is emulating the system, _without_ providing any of the busses, no problem; all that complexity is hidden inside the simulator. But once you start emulating real busses (i.e. to be able to plug in real hardware) - whole different kettle of fish. Noel From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 14:19:48 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 21:19:48 +0200 Subject: QEMM Message-ID: The old extended/expanded memory manager for DOS. Anyone remember? I'm playing with bootable USB keys with PC DOS 7 (and DR-DOS 7 to follow). I have it working and booting now, but I'd like to disable QEMM's memory check on startup. I'm sure there was a switch, but I can't remember it. Even with just -- "just" -- 4GB of RAM it takes quite a while. If anyone knows of a place where there's a summary of QEMM's command-line switches, that'd be great. I have found some manuals but nothing helpful. I'm using QEMM 9, the last version, for Win9x. Any suggestions? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From ethan at 757.org Thu Oct 26 14:29:10 2017 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: QEMM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The old extended/expanded memory manager for DOS. Anyone remember? I remember it! It was useful. Here is the manual: https://www.jumpjet.info/Application-Software/DOS/QEMM/Manual.pdf -- : Ethan O'Toole From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 26 14:32:39 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 12:32:39 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: On 10/24/17 7:40 PM, Kip Koon via cctalk wrote: > The choice so far it seems is the PDP-11/70. Remember I still have no idea > beyond some searching on the internet what boards and peripherals a > PDP-11/70 consists of. For that matter, I don't know what boards and > peripherals are in the PDP-8/e or PDP-8/I either. bitsavers.org/pdf/dec has details for most of the DEC processors and software From RichA at livingcomputers.org Thu Oct 26 13:35:12 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 18:35:12 +0000 Subject: SDS 940 BASIC (was Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?) In-Reply-To: <9030af97-991c-4a6b-1b1d-38f2b2aecd74@bitsavers.org> References: <20171024181149.6902018C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9030af97-991c-4a6b-1b1d-38f2b2aecd74@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: From: Al Kossow Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 9:04 AM > On 10/25/17 11:55 AM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: >> Noel, do have a reference for "some commercial time-sharing system in the >> Boston area"? From Paul Allen's autobiography, the Harvard system was >> followed immediately by their move to Albuquerque, where they leased time on >> the local school board's PDP-10, and that's what my friends who worked for >> Micro-soft back then have told me, as well. > Harvard had an SDS 940, which shipped with a version of Berkeley's > timesharing system. Tymshare's version of that system was significantly > improved, and included "Super BASIC". SDS's OS was replaced with Tymshare's > at Harvard because the original was so bad, and so they were exposed to that > version of BASIC. PA told me that was the influence for M-S's BASIC > extensions. Harvard also had a KA-10, which is what PGA's 8008 -> 8080 simulator ran on, using the User UUO capabilities of the architecture and operating system: Microprocessor 8-bit byte in the address field, and a user-defined operation in the opcode field to do the interpretation/call the interpreter. (The simulator was originally written for the Traf-O-Data device, which was 8008 based.) I put the code on our Tops-10 system while he was writing the book, and the version of BASIC we run on the Altair 8800 in the Exhibit Hall was compiled on that system; it is not a Microsoft product. I know about the influence of SuperBASIC; I did not know about the Harvard 940. Thanks for the note! Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 15:07:58 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 22:07:58 +0200 Subject: QEMM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26 October 2017 at 21:29, wrote: > > I remember it! It was useful. > > Here is the manual: > https://www.jumpjet.info/Application-Software/DOS/QEMM/Manual.pdf Oh, excellent! Thank you! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 26 15:29:10 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 16:29:10 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> > On Oct 24, 2017, at 10:40 PM, Kip Koon via cctalk wrote: > > ... > 2nd, a hardware emulator running a simulator written in 6809 assembly > language for the PDP-8/e running on a 6809 Core & I/O board system seems > like a good choice for me as I understand the 6809 microprocessor, ... I would call that a software emulator; the fact that it runs on some microprocessor eval board doesn't make a difference. Running SIMH on a Beaglebone would be analogous (though easier). When you said "hardware emulator" I figured you meant an FPGA implementation of a VHDL or Verilog model of the machine. There are a bunch of those for a variety of DEC computers. One I have looked at is this one: http://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/ which incidentally is also configurable to implement a choice of PDP11 model. paul From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Fri Oct 27 00:41:40 2017 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 01:41:40 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> Hi Paul, Thank you for the info. I tend to get emulation and simulation a bit confused. Just so I understand simulation correctly, hardware emulation is when the functionality of the hardware is actually implemented in hardware somehow like VHDL in an FGPA and hardware simulation is when a program implements the functionality of the hardware in a software program no matter what hardware the hardware simulator is running on. I think I got this now. Correct? Thanks a bunch for setting me straight. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/User:Computerdoc -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 4:29 PM To: Kip Koon; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > On Oct 24, 2017, at 10:40 PM, Kip Koon via cctalk wrote: > > ... > 2nd, a hardware emulator running a simulator written in 6809 assembly > language for the PDP-8/e running on a 6809 Core & I/O board system > seems like a good choice for me as I understand the 6809 microprocessor, ... I would call that a software emulator; the fact that it runs on some microprocessor eval board doesn't make a difference. Running SIMH on a Beaglebone would be analogous (though easier). When you said "hardware emulator" I figured you meant an FPGA implementation of a VHDL or Verilog model of the machine. There are a bunch of those for a variety of DEC computers. One I have looked at is this one: http://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/ which incidentally is also configurable to implement a choice of PDP11 model. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 03:54:06 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 09:54:06 +0100 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> Kip, I think "emulation" and "simulation" get used pretty much interchangeable. SIMH is touted a simulator, Hercules/390 as an emulator yet they are both programs that provide a "bare metal" machine via software on which an operating system can be installed. Neither make any attempt to reproduce the speed of the original CPU. I am going to stick with "emulator" as I think of "simulation" as process whereby we can model some statistical or mathematical parameters e.g. how long the queues are in a supermarket, what time is high tide in Boston using only mathematics. Note this may involve a general purpose computer, or it may use specialist machines such as the Doodson-Lege Tidal Predictor http://www.ntslf.org/about-tides/doodson-machine So to return to emulating other computers have at least five different flavours... 1. Functional Software Emulation where we match the functions but not the speed of operation using a program. SIMH and Hercules are such beasts For much work this is fine. Most software emulators take this approach. 2. Cycle accurate Software Emulation/Simulation where we attempt to match both function and speed of the underlying hardware. This may be necessary for software which uses software loops to control say the speed of a UART. I If you want to use the simulator for historical research this may help. Some emulators can be switched to this mode when software needs it... David Sharp's SSEM/Baby simulator is such a beast. http://www.davidsharp.com/baby/ 3. Behavioural Hardware Emulation This is where we build a hardware implementation of a machine, but do not attempt to duplicate the exact detail of the logic or its speed of operation. Richard Stofer's IBM1130 in VHDL is such a project. He doesn't have it available on the Web (I have a copy and have run it) There is a Flash video on the IBM1130.org site 4. Cycle Accurate Behavioural Hardware Emulation This is probably the most common approach to cycle accurate emulations. Because FPGA's typically run several times faster than the clock on legacy hardware, and they may contain high level function blocks, e.g. multipliers its often "relatively easy" to match the instruction times of a legacy CPU in an FPGA. My BabyBaby FPGA implementation of the SSEM FPGA is such a beast. It runs at the same speed as replica SSEM in MSI Manchester but internally it's a parallel implementation whereas the real Baby is a serial machine. https://hackaday.com/2016/01/06/babybaby-a-1948-computer-on-an-fpga/ 5. Gate Level Hardware Emulation It gate level hardware emulation we try and re-implement the hardware down to the logic gate level. This is hard because FPGA's are may not be designed to work this way, and gate level design will also have some dependencies on propagation delays, which on an FPGA will be much smaller than on any real hardware. A couple of examples of these are Laurence Wilkinson's IBM 360/30 http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/ Carl Claunch's IBM 1130 http://ibm1130.blogspot.co.uk/ I hope this doesn't muddy the water too much... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kip Koon > via cctalk > Sent: 27 October 2017 06:42 > To: 'Paul Koning' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > Hi Paul, > Thank you for the info. I tend to get emulation and simulation a bit confused. > Just so I understand simulation correctly, hardware emulation is when the > functionality of the hardware is actually implemented in hardware somehow > like VHDL in an FGPA and hardware simulation is when a program > implements the functionality of the hardware in a software program no > matter what hardware the hardware simulator is running on. I think I got this > now. > Correct? Thanks a bunch for setting me straight. > > > Kip Koon > computerdoc at sc.rr.com > http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/User:Computerdoc > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net] > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 4:29 PM > To: Kip Koon; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > > > On Oct 24, 2017, at 10:40 PM, Kip Koon via cctalk > wrote: > > > > ... > > 2nd, a hardware emulator running a simulator written in 6809 assembly > > language for the PDP-8/e running on a 6809 Core & I/O board system > > seems like a good choice for me as I understand the 6809 microprocessor, > ... > > I would call that a software emulator; the fact that it runs on some > microprocessor eval board doesn't make a difference. Running SIMH on a > Beaglebone would be analogous (though easier). > > When you said "hardware emulator" I figured you meant an FPGA > implementation > of a VHDL or Verilog model of the machine. There are a bunch of those for a > variety of DEC computers. One I have looked at is this one: > http://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/ which incidentally is also configurable > to implement a choice of PDP11 model. > > paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 27 09:13:39 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RK05/BA11 slides Message-ID: <20171027141339.567D618C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, you have an RK05 drive, but you're missing the slides to mount it? Your troubles are over (sort of :-). It turns out the slide DEC used was the General Devices 'Chassis Trak' C-230-S-122 (22") - and those are still available (e.g. from Newark). They're somewhat pricey - the -124 (24") is slightly cheaper, and can easily be modified to fit an H960, viz: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/24InchSlide.jpg The one in the image actually came off an -11/05 in a 10-1/2" box; the 3-3/8" outer slide pair from the RK05 slides does in fact fit the inner slides (i.e. the part permanently fixed to the box) used on a lot of BA11 boxes. One hitch: the location of the safety latches (the 'buttons' on the inner slides that pop out through holes in the intermediate slides) is different on most of the BA11-K inners (on the three BA11-F's I've looked at, they do match), and so the latches don't work. (Unless of course you make the correct hole in the intermediates, or drill new holes in the inners that come with the slide set, to match the mounting holes on the BA11-K, and use them instead.) So, better than nothing, if you have BA11's (or similar) and don't have the outer slides, to mount them. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 27 10:30:52 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Image de-warping tool, and Multics/GCOS panels Message-ID: <20171027153052.6DBF718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hey all, I've been doing research on Multics front panels, which it turns out are slightly different from those on the Honeywell 6000 series machines which ran GCOS, and are often confused with them. So, I've put together a Web page about them: Multics and Related 6000 Series Front Panels http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/multics/MulticsPanels.html and I've taken some new images, so make sure the captions are all readable. I'm having an issue with the images, though: taking a picture of a flat, rectangular panel with a camera usually produces distortion (even with the lens set to the narrowest angle possible). Does anyone know of any freeware which will fix this? The image tool I normally use (ImagePals, sort of a poor man's Photoshop) does have a 'warp' function, but it requires setting up a grid of points, and is a pain to use: optimal would be something where you mark the 4 corners, and few intermediate edge points, and the image is automagically fixed. I did find this: http://guides.library.illinois.edu/c.php?g=347882&p=2345440 but it's even hairier than the warp function in my image tool; it's very powerful (and thus complex, sigh) and can straigten out badly warped old book pages. I'm hoping there's a simpler tool, for the simple case of distortion of rectangles by a lens - does anyone know of anything? Thanks! Noel From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 10:40:30 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 16:40:30 +0100 Subject: Apple II no video display Message-ID: <084901d34f39$eca31fc0$c5e95f40$@gmail.com> Folks, I have an Apple II that produces one beep at power on, but my monitor says "no video present". A scope on the output shows frame sync but at low levels. The odd thing is that ic A9 appears to be a 74S151 not a 74LS151. I wouldn't expect this to work, but I assume it was working at some point in time! I have done some googling and can't see any reference to this substitution. Is it something any one else has seen? Dave Wade From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 27 10:57:08 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:57:08 -0400 Subject: Image de-warping tool, and Multics/GCOS panels In-Reply-To: <20171027153052.6DBF718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171027153052.6DBF718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8B871285-671B-4E29-BB19-216C136E3B91@comcast.net> > On Oct 27, 2017, at 11:30 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Hey all, I've been doing research on Multics front panels, which it turns out > are slightly different from those on the Honeywell 6000 series machines which > ran GCOS, and are often confused with them. > > So, I've put together a Web page about them: > > Multics and Related 6000 Series Front Panels > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/multics/MulticsPanels.html > > and I've taken some new images, so make sure the captions are all readable. > > > I'm having an issue with the images, though: taking a picture of a flat, > rectangular panel with a camera usually produces distortion (even with the > lens set to the narrowest angle possible). > > Does anyone know of any freeware which will fix this? The image tool I > normally use (ImagePals, sort of a poor man's Photoshop) does have a 'warp' > function, but it requires setting up a grid of points, and is a pain to use: > optimal would be something where you mark the 4 corners, and few intermediate > edge points, and the image is automagically fixed. GIMP has something that does this, after a fashion. I've played with it a bit, to straighten out snapshots of book pages moderately. It doesn't work all that well, but for modest distortion (pincushion, for example) of photos taken with some care, it's probably good enough. If I want a good clean image, my solution is to take a decent photo or scan, then turn it into vector graphics. By hand is often best; I recently discovered Inkscape which is pretty friendly. paul From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Oct 27 11:33:33 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 09:33:33 -0700 Subject: Image de-warping tool, and Multics/GCOS panels In-Reply-To: <8B871285-671B-4E29-BB19-216C136E3B91@comcast.net> References: <20171027153052.6DBF718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8B871285-671B-4E29-BB19-216C136E3B91@comcast.net> Message-ID: <17c14ce3-7624-941d-7dc2-a97a06d56ad2@jwsss.com> I move it to my android device. CS Scanner application will let you do that easily.? add it to a cs scan document, then save that doc as a image (jpg) file. Convoluted, but actually less hassle with the operation of selecting the parts you want to mess with than other applications i've seen https://www.camscanner.com/ thanks Jim On 10/27/2017 8:57 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know of any freeware From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 27 12:22:00 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 18:22:00 +0100 Subject: RK05/BA11 slides In-Reply-To: <20171027141339.567D618C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171027141339.567D618C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <00e201d34f48$19789990$4c69ccb0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa via cctalk > Sent: 27 October 2017 15:14 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: RK05/BA11 slides > > So, you have an RK05 drive, but you're missing the slides to mount it? > Your troubles are over (sort of :-). > > It turns out the slide DEC used was the General Devices 'Chassis Trak' > C-230-S-122 (22") - and those are still available (e.g. from Newark). They're > somewhat pricey - the -124 (24") is slightly cheaper, and can easily be modified > to fit an H960, viz: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/24InchSlide.jpg > Thanks for this info Noel. I need the outer rails for my RK05 in a H960. So it sounds like I would need the C-230-S-124. I am not clear from the picture you linked to, what the modification is? My metalworking abilities are limited. Regards Rob > The one in the image actually came off an -11/05 in a 10-1/2" box; the 3-3/8" > outer slide pair from the RK05 slides does in fact fit the inner slides (i.e. > the part permanently fixed to the box) used on a lot of BA11 boxes. > > One hitch: the location of the safety latches (the 'buttons' on the inner slides > that pop out through holes in the intermediate slides) is different on most of > the BA11-K inners (on the three BA11-F's I've looked at, they do match), and so > the latches don't work. (Unless of course you make the correct hole in the > intermediates, or drill new holes in the inners that come with the slide set, to > match the mounting holes on the BA11-K, and use them instead.) > > So, better than nothing, if you have BA11's (or similar) and don't have the outer > slides, to mount them. > > Noel From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Fri Oct 27 12:24:28 2017 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 17:24:28 +0000 Subject: Contacting the list admin? Message-ID: Hello, I've been trying to unsubscribe from the list. I did it once before and hadn't seen anything for months. However, I suddenly started receiving mails last weekend. I went to the webpage to unsubscribe but I can't login and neither the password reset or unsubscribe confirmation make it to me. So I'm hoping someone can tell me how to contact the list admin. I emailed an address I found on the website but I hadn't received a response yet. I may not have waited long enough but I don't know. Cheers, Mike From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 27 12:25:13 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:25:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RK05/BA11 slides Message-ID: <20171027172513.39AE818C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: "Rob Jarratt" > Thanks for this info Noel. Sure; I figured it would be useful to someone, glad to know it was. > So it sounds like I would need the C-230-S-124. ... My metalworking > abilities are limited. If you don't want to have to do any mods, the C-230-S-122 is a straight bolt-in, albeit $30 or so more than the -124, which requires.. > I am not clear from the picture you linked to, what the modification is? Drilling the two holes. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 27 12:27:32 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:27:32 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 27, 2017, at 4:54 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > Kip, > I think "emulation" and "simulation" get used pretty much interchangeable. > SIMH is touted a simulator, Hercules/390 as an emulator yet they are both > programs that provide a "bare metal" machine via software on which an > operating system can be installed. Neither make any attempt to reproduce the > speed of the original CPU. True. And by some argument, an FPGA implementation (from an HDL behavioral model) is also a software implementation, just written in a different programming language. Recently I commented to an old colleague that there are many different levels of emulation possible, and any one of those may make sense -- it's just a question of what you're after. So you can emulate in a conventional programming language, as SIMH does, reproducing the programmer-visible behavior of the machine but not its timing. Bugs from the original might appear if those bugs are known to be important, but probably not otherwise. This kind is (nowadays) likely to run faster than the original; certainly it won't usually mimic the original timing, neither for computation nor I/O. You can make timing-accurate software emulators, with lots of work. SIMH, in paced mode, and provided the I/O waits are reasonably accurately expressed in units of machine cycles, isn't quite timing accurate but is somewhat similar. You can build a behavioral simulator (SIMH style, basically) in an FPGA. That isn't necessarily any more capable or accurate than a software simulator. PDP-2011 is an example I know of, and I've see articles about other PDP emulations of this kind. Since the design is new, created from a behavioral description (data book, functional spec, architecture spec) it will be about as accurate as SIMH. You can also, if the data exists, build a lower level (gate level or thereabouts) FPGA model. Given schematics and wire lists, it should be possible to build an implementation that's an exact copy of how the original machine worked (assuming of course the documentation is accurate, which is not necessarily the case). Such an emulation would replicate strange and undocumented behavior of the original -- and allow you to find out where that came from. I've been working on such a thing for the CDC 6600, which is surprisingly hard given that the design lives right on the hairy edge of not working at all timing-wise. But it does accuarately model the peripheral processors right now, and indeed it shows and explains some undocumented oddities that are part of that machine's folklore. So it's a question of what you're after. If you want to run the software, or teach the machine at the programmer level, SIMH or equivalent is quite adequate. If you want to teach FPGA skills, an FPGA behavioral model emulation is a good project, especially for a small machine like a PDP-8. As for the gate level model, I'm not sure what argument to make for that other than "paul is a bit crazy" and "because the data exists to do it". :-) paul From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 27 12:42:49 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 18:42:49 +0100 Subject: RK05/BA11 slides In-Reply-To: <20171027172513.39AE818C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171027172513.39AE818C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <00e301d34f4b$01d27e70$05777b50$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa via cctalk > Sent: 27 October 2017 18:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: RE: RK05/BA11 slides > > > From: "Rob Jarratt" > > > Thanks for this info Noel. > > Sure; I figured it would be useful to someone, glad to know it was. > > > So it sounds like I would need the C-230-S-124. ... My metalworking > > abilities are limited. > > If you don't want to have to do any mods, the C-230-S-122 is a straight bolt-in, > albeit $30 or so more than the -124, which requires.. > > > I am not clear from the picture you linked to, what the modification is? > > Drilling the two holes. > > Noel Ah I misread your email as suggesting that the 124 was more suitable than the 122, but if the 122 is the better fit then so much the better. My H960 is not very accessible but I attempted to measure it front back and it may be 25". Do you know where should the length be measured? Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 27 12:47:55 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 18:47:55 +0100 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning > via cctalk > Sent: 27 October 2017 18:28 > To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > > > On Oct 27, 2017, at 4:54 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Kip, > > I think "emulation" and "simulation" get used pretty much interchangeable. > > SIMH is touted a simulator, Hercules/390 as an emulator yet they are > > both programs that provide a "bare metal" machine via software on > > which an operating system can be installed. Neither make any attempt > > to reproduce the speed of the original CPU. > > True. And by some argument, an FPGA implementation (from an HDL > behavioral model) is also a software implementation, just written in a different > programming language. > > Recently I commented to an old colleague that there are many different levels > of emulation possible, and any one of those may make sense -- it's just a > question of what you're after. So you can emulate in a conventional > programming language, as SIMH does, reproducing the programmer-visible > behavior of the machine but not its timing. Bugs from the original might > appear if those bugs are known to be important, but probably not otherwise. > This kind is (nowadays) likely to run faster than the original; certainly it won't > usually mimic the original timing, neither for computation nor I/O. > > You can make timing-accurate software emulators, with lots of work. SIMH, in > paced mode, and provided the I/O waits are reasonably accurately expressed in > units of machine cycles, isn't quite timing accurate but is somewhat similar. > > You can build a behavioral simulator (SIMH style, basically) in an FPGA. That > isn't necessarily any more capable or accurate than a software simulator. PDP- > 2011 is an example I know of, and I've see articles about other PDP emulations > of this kind. Since the design is new, created from a behavioral description > (data book, functional spec, architecture spec) it will be about as accurate as > SIMH. > > You can also, if the data exists, build a lower level (gate level or thereabouts) > FPGA model. Given schematics and wire lists, it should be possible to build an > implementation that's an exact copy of how the original machine worked > (assuming of course the documentation is accurate, which is not necessarily the > case). Such an emulation would replicate strange and undocumented behavior > of the original -- and allow you to find out where that came from. I've been > working on such a thing for the CDC 6600, which is surprisingly hard given that > the design lives right on the hairy edge of not working at all timing-wise. But it > does accuarately model the peripheral processors right now, and indeed it > shows and explains some undocumented oddities that are part of that > machine's folklore. > > So it's a question of what you're after. If you want to run the software, or teach > the machine at the programmer level, SIMH or equivalent is quite adequate. If > you want to teach FPGA skills, an FPGA behavioral model emulation is a good > project, especially for a small machine like a PDP-8. As for the gate level > model, I'm not sure what argument to make for that other than "paul is a bit > crazy" and "because the data exists to do it". :-) > If I had the skill, data and time, I would always go for a gate level model. However, I do most (sim/em)ulation in SIMH instead, like I have been doing for MU5 where I lack the data and the time and probably the skill as well, but I can always acquire the skill, the other two are harder to find. Regards Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 27 13:02:48 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RK05/BA11 slides Message-ID: <20171027180248.3395918C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: "Rob Jarratt" > I misread your email as suggesting that the 124 was more suitable than > the 122 No, it's just cheaper (at the moment), and can be made to work. > My H960 is not very accessible but I attempted to measure it front back > and it may be 25". Do you know where should the length be measured? You don't need to measure anything. The C-230-S-122 is the _exact_ part DEC used originally for mounting RK05's in H960's. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 27 13:28:26 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:28:26 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> > On Oct 27, 2017, at 1:47 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > If I had the skill, data and time, I would always go for a gate level model. > However, I do most (sim/em)ulation in SIMH instead, like I have been doing > for MU5 where I lack the data and the time and probably the skill as well, > but I can always acquire the skill, the other two are harder to find. I've read some VHDL before, but my 6600 gate level model was my first VHDL project. It's actually quite easy, easier than the level of fluency needed to do a good behavioral model. A decent textbook helps a lot. My favorite is The Designer's Guide to VHDL by Peter Ashenden. The point is that modeling small modules (SSI gates, or 6600 "cordwood" modules, or the like) is easy because they are small and have quite simple behavior. Then it's just a matter of wiring them together. Note that you don't need an FPGA to do logic level design; all you need is a VHDL simulator. I use GHDL, which is open source, part of GCC so you can hook in C code if you need it. For example, that allows you to make a model of the I/O channel and connect it to a SIMH style emulation of a peripheral device. The real issue for gate level modeling is the availability of the necessary documentation. If you have schematics, and they includes critical detail such as microcode ROM contents, you're all set. If all you have is functional specs, you can't even start. It helps to have a machine built with sane design principles. Things like RS flops that don't have both inputs active at the same time. And a properly clocked architecture. Neither of these properties holds for the CDC 6600... paul From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Oct 27 13:28:48 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:28:48 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DC9548C-6131-42D3-8349-647A80B3F0DC@shaw.ca> On 2017-Oct-27, at 10:27 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > So it's a question of what you're after. If you want to run the software, or teach the machine at the programmer level, SIMH or equivalent is quite adequate. If you want to teach FPGA skills, an FPGA behavioral model emulation is a good project, especially for a small machine like a PDP-8. As for the gate level model, I'm not sure what argument to make for that other than "paul is a bit crazy" and "because the data exists to do it". :-) I would add that gate/logic level simulations in some instances can be useful if you have to understand and repair the original hardware. Back in the 90s I was attempting to repair a 60s-era SSI-based calculator, I reverse-engineered it but was still stuck with issues of access to the PC boards, understanding the design, having to hack up the PCB traces or unsolder (unobtainable) ICs. I resorted to writing a logic simulator (in a high-level scripting language) and entering the 'net list' of the reverse-engineered logic to produce a gate-level simulation. I could then play around with the simulator, slow the clock to observable rates, monitor any and multiple points, break connections, force logic levels, eventually to obtain the same fault as the real hardware. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 27 13:43:42 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? Message-ID: <20171027184342.0694518C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Kip Koon > I tend to get emulation and simulation a bit confused. You and me both! I think part of the problem is that there is no generally-agreed-upon definition of the two terms. I like this one a lot, though: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1584617/simulator-or-emulator-what-is-the-difference Emulation is the process of mimicking the outwardly observable behavior to match an existing target. The internal state of the emulation mechanism does not have to accurately reflect the internal state of the target which it is emulating. Simulation, on the other hand, involves modeling the underlying state of the target. The end result of a good simulation is that the simulation model will emulate the target which it is simulating. Ideally, you should be able to look into the simulation and observe properties that you would also see if you looked into the original target. In practice, there may some shortcuts to the simulation for performance reasons -- that is, some internal aspects of the simulation may actually be an emulation. ... EDIT: Other responses have pointed out that the goal of an emulation is to able to substitute for the object it is emulating. That's an important point. A simulation's focus is more on the modelling of the internal state of the target - and the simulation does not necessarily lead to emulation. ... SPICE, for example, cannot substitue for an actual electronics circuit There's also the question of what's being emulated. Ersatz-11, for example, does a good job of looking like a PDP-11 - for the software. However, it does not like a PDP-11 for the hardware (although John used to sell boards you could plug into a PC, which provided a QBUS, IIRC). So is it a simulator or an emulator? Good question. About the only _generally-agreed_ example of the terminology I can think of are 'in-circuit emulators', which _exactly_ match the behaviour of a given chip. Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 27 13:53:47 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:53:47 -0500 Subject: Contacting the list admin? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00df01d34f54$eba45920$c2ed0b60$@classiccmp.org> Got it covered. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 27 13:55:23 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:55:23 -0600 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/27/2017 12:28 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > It helps to have a machine built with sane design principles. Things like RS flops that don't have both inputs active at the same time. And a properly clocked architecture. Neither of these properties holds for the CDC 6600... > > paul But you can still get TTL for the common stuff,and PAL/GAL chips as well, so nothing is preventing you from doing the common logic of the 1965 to 1985 era, if it not for production use. Ben. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Oct 27 14:04:24 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:04:24 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2017-Oct-27, at 11:28 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > It helps to have a machine built with sane design principles. Things like RS flops that don't have both inputs active at the same time. And a properly clocked architecture. Neither of these properties holds for the CDC 6600... True of a lot of 50s / 60s / even early-70s logic, designers took a lot of 'electronic shortcuts' to save components, capacitive coupling for instance being popular. Flip flops with half-a dozen options of semantically different input types which could be combined in multiple, so every flip-flop in the system was unique with it's particular set of (sometimes many) input options. One logic design I encountered had a type of logic element specifically intended (from what I could figure) to soak up glitches. It could take in multiple inputs with edges occurring at slightly skewed times and ensured that only one slightly-delayed edge would be propagated out. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 27 14:06:51 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 15:06:51 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> Message-ID: <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> > On Oct 27, 2017, at 2:55 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/27/2017 12:28 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> It helps to have a machine built with sane design principles. Things like RS flops that don't have both inputs active at the same time. And a properly clocked architecture. Neither of these properties holds for the CDC 6600... >> paul > > But you can still get TTL for the common stuff,and PAL/GAL chips as well, so nothing is preventing you from doing the common logic of > the 1965 to 1985 era, if it not for production use. > Ben. True if you have a TTL machine. 6600 is discrete transistor, and the actual transistor specs are nowhere to be found as far as I have been able to tell. But that doesn't directly relate to gate level emulation. If you have gate level documentation you can of course build a copy of the machine out of actual gate-type parts, like 7400 chips. Or you can write a gate level model in VHDL, which is not the most popular form but certainly perfectly straightforward. Either way, though, you have to start with a document that shows what the gates are in the original and how they connect. And to get it to work, you need to deal with timing issues and logic abuse, if present. In the 6600, both are very present and very critical. For example, I've been debugging a section (the central processor branch logic) where the behavior changes quite substantially depending on whether you favor S or R in an R/S flop, i.e., if both are asserted at the same time, who wins? And the circuit and wire delays matter, down to the few-nanosecond level. Most machines are not so crazy; I would assume a PDP-11/20 gate level model would be quite painless. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 14:13:33 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 15:13:33 -0400 Subject: Apple II no video display In-Reply-To: <084901d34f39$eca31fc0$c5e95f40$@gmail.com> References: <084901d34f39$eca31fc0$c5e95f40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 11:40 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > Folks, > > I have an Apple II that produces one beep at power on, but my monitor says > "no video present". A scope on the output shows frame sync but at low > levels. Are you using a vintage CRT or a modern LCD with composite-in? I have found numerous examples of 1970s video not being acceptable to modern screens. Do you have a working Apple II to compare the scope trace to? It's possible you have a defective component, but I would try to line up some comparisons between good and bad examples to narrow down the differences if any. > The odd thing is that ic A9 appears to be a 74S151 not a 74LS151. I > wouldn't expect this to work, but I assume it was working at some point in > time! I don't think that should be a problem. 74S is often a sub for 74LS when the higher speed of 74LS is not required but the higher drive of 74S is (and the higher power consumption of 74S is irrelevant in-circuit). There are many times when you can put a 74S where it calls for a 74LS but often you can't sub 74LS for 74S where it's there intentionally. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 27 14:16:27 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:16:27 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> On 10/27/2017 12:06 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > But that doesn't directly relate to gate level emulation. If you > have gate level documentation you can of course build a copy of the > machine out of actual gate-type parts, like 7400 chips. Or you can > write a gate level model in VHDL, which is not the most popular form > but certainly perfectly straightforward. Either way, though, you > have to start with a document that shows what the gates are in the > original and how they connect. And to get it to work, you need to > deal with timing issues and logic abuse, if present. In the 6600, > both are very present and very critical. For example, I've been > debugging a section (the central processor branch logic) where the > behavior changes quite substantially depending on whether you favor S > or R in an R/S flop, i.e., if both are asserted at the same time, who > wins? And the circuit and wire delays matter, down to the > few-nanosecond level. This. In particular, google for a shot of the 6600 backplane. Many of those twisted wires were cut to provide specific delays. Remember the nanosecond-foot? A lot of the old hardware used this in the design. I've long had a fantasy about building a core-logic CPU such as the Univac Solid State. But heck if I know where one would get the "hard" magnetic cores today. Another example of something you can't do with commodity TTL. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 27 14:21:49 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:21:49 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> On 10/27/17 12:16 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I've long had a fantasy about building a core-logic CPU such as the > Univac Solid State. I have been told the behavior of Univac magnetic logic was similar to NMOS which explains why there is an RF power amplifier for the clock driver in the machine. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Oct 27 14:53:02 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:53:02 -0700 Subject: Apple II no video display In-Reply-To: <084901d34f39$eca31fc0$c5e95f40$@gmail.com> References: <084901d34f39$eca31fc0$c5e95f40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B527CB6-AF4F-41E7-8429-1C209790F3CD@shaw.ca> On 2017-Oct-27, at 8:40 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > I have an Apple II that produces one beep at power on, but my monitor says > "no video present". A scope on the output shows frame sync but at low > levels. The odd thing is that ic A9 appears to be a 74S151 not a 74LS151. I > wouldn't expect this to work, but I assume it was working at some point in > time! > > I have done some googling and can't see any reference to this substitution. > Is it something any one else has seen? Don't know about the frequency of occurrence of such a substitution in the apple II but the relative downside of 74S to 74LS is the higher loading from inputs of S types (aside from higher per package power consumption). The worst case on A9 looks to be inputs I2,I4 which are driven by one LS output which is also driving two other LS inputs. This should still be within the loading rules. Can't say I would be expecting the S type to be a problem. How about using the scope to trace back through Q3 to the resistive inputs of R6,7,8 where the video elements are resistively combined. See how the signals and levels are at the input end of those resistors. If you're seeing frame sync without line sync, perhaps look back towards the sync combiner which appears is probably C13. Would have to stare at the logic more to discern what all the inputs there are doing. The apple II schematic is terrible (IMO). (looking at: http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schemview.php?id=1472 ) From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 27 14:57:59 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 15:57:59 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> > On Oct 27, 2017, at 3:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 10/27/17 12:16 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> I've long had a fantasy about building a core-logic CPU such as the >> Univac Solid State. > > I have been told the behavior of Univac magnetic logic was similar to NMOS That doesn't sound even close. Ken Olsen did his thesis on magnetic core logic. There is some (but surprisingly little) information on line about this technology. There are two flavors: with permanent magnetic cores (memory cores) and with "soft" cores (transformers). Apollo "rope" core memory ROM is an example of the former. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 15:10:31 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 21:10:31 +0100 Subject: Apple II no video display In-Reply-To: References: <084901d34f39$eca31fc0$c5e95f40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <08ae01d34f5f$a494d0e0$edbe72a0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:ethan.dicks at gmail.com] > Sent: 27 October 2017 20:14 > To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Apple II no video display > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 11:40 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk > wrote: > > Folks, > > > > I have an Apple II that produces one beep at power on, but my monitor > > says "no video present". A scope on the output shows frame sync but at > > low levels. > > Are you using a vintage CRT or a modern LCD with composite-in? I have > found numerous examples of 1970s video not being acceptable to modern > screens. That was the problem. I was trying an LCD TV that I had used successfully with other vintage equipment. When I tried it on another screen (small one, also LCD for in-car reversing camera) I get a display. I was a bit surprised as there is a modulator and that wasn't detected either. > > Do you have a working Apple II to compare the scope trace to? It's possible > you have a defective component, but I would try to line up some > comparisons between good and bad examples to narrow down the > differences if any. > No I don't have a working Apple II. Well I do now! I did compare with a CoCo 3 and the sync pulses on the CoCo3 looked much bigger. > > The odd thing is that ic A9 appears to be a 74S151 not a 74LS151. I > > wouldn't expect this to work, but I assume it was working at some > > point in time! > > I don't think that should be a problem. 74S is often a sub for 74LS when the > higher speed of 74LS is not required but the higher drive of 74S is (and the > higher power consumption of 74S is irrelevant in-circuit). There are many > times when you can put a 74S where it calls for a 74LS but often you can't sub > 74LS for 74S where it's there intentionally. I was wondering if it needed more drive than 74LS could provide, but as it works, apparently not.. > > -ethan Thanks for the suggestions Dave From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Oct 27 15:13:01 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:13:01 -0700 Subject: Apple II no video display In-Reply-To: References: <084901d34f39$eca31fc0$c5e95f40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9C64D54D-4EEC-41CB-8ECC-7D83A7A71BC5@shaw.ca> On 2017-Oct-27, at 12:13 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 11:40 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk > >> The odd thing is that ic A9 appears to be a 74S151 not a 74LS151. I >> wouldn't expect this to work, but I assume it was working at some point in >> time! > > I don't think that should be a problem. 74S is often a sub for 74LS > when the higher speed of 74LS is not required 74S is faster than 74LS, 74LS was combining low power techniques (which result in loss of speed) with Schottky technology to get some of the lost speed back, to get a better speed-power product than 'normal' TTL. The chronological order of development was 74 --> 74H & L --> 74S --> 74LS > but the higher drive of > 74S is (and the higher power consumption of 74S is irrelevant > in-circuit). There are many times when you can put a 74S where it > calls for a 74LS but often you can't sub 74LS for 74S where it's there > intentionally. > > -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 27 15:14:09 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 21:14:09 +0100 Subject: RK05/BA11 slides In-Reply-To: <20171027180248.3395918C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171027180248.3395918C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <00f801d34f60$2618f1a0$724ad4e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa via cctalk > Sent: 27 October 2017 19:03 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: RE: RK05/BA11 slides > > > From: "Rob Jarratt" > > > I misread your email as suggesting that the 124 was more suitable than > > the 122 > > No, it's just cheaper (at the moment), and can be made to work. > > > My H960 is not very accessible but I attempted to measure it front back > > and it may be 25". Do you know where should the length be measured? > > You don't need to measure anything. The C-230-S-122 is the _exact_ part DEC > used originally for mounting RK05's in H960's. > Even better. Oddly, on Farnell in the UK (which is Element 14) the 122 is actually cheaper than the 124, but only by 2 pounds and still a lot of money. If there were enough people in the UK who want a pair they go from ?135 to ?92.53 for 10 or more pairs, plus VAT plus postage. Anyone want to club together? Regards Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 15:24:58 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 21:24:58 +0100 Subject: Apple II no video display In-Reply-To: <4B527CB6-AF4F-41E7-8429-1C209790F3CD@shaw.ca> References: <084901d34f39$eca31fc0$c5e95f40$@gmail.com> <4B527CB6-AF4F-41E7-8429-1C209790F3CD@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <08b001d34f61$a8e15cc0$faa41640$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert via cctalk > Sent: 27 October 2017 20:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Apple II no video display > > On 2017-Oct-27, at 8:40 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > I have an Apple II that produces one beep at power on, but my monitor > > says "no video present". A scope on the output shows frame sync but at > > low levels. The odd thing is that ic A9 appears to be a 74S151 not a > > 74LS151. I wouldn't expect this to work, but I assume it was working > > at some point in time! > > > > I have done some googling and can't see any reference to this substitution. > > Is it something any one else has seen? > > Don't know about the frequency of occurrence of such a substitution in the > apple II but the relative downside of 74S to 74LS is the higher loading from > inputs of S types (aside from higher per package power consumption). > The worst case on A9 looks to be inputs I2,I4 which are driven by one LS > output which is also driving two other LS inputs. > This should still be within the loading rules. > Can't say I would be expecting the S type to be a problem. Its just not something I have seen. It was the higher loading that was concerning me... > > How about using the scope to trace back through Q3 to the resistive inputs of > R6,7,8 where the video elements are resistively combined. > See how the signals and levels are at the input end of those resistors. > > If you're seeing frame sync without line sync, perhaps look back towards the > sync combiner which appears is probably C13. > > Would have to stare at the logic more to discern what all the inputs there are > doing. > The apple II schematic is terrible (IMO). > (looking at: > http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schemview.php?id=1472 ) There are more usable schematics in the Apple II Redbook, but they are spread over several pages so working out fan-in and fan-out. I am sure I got mine from applelogic.org but it appears to be down. There is a copy here:- http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/Apple/Apple%20II%20(Redbook)%20Reference% 20Manual%2030th%20Anniversary.pdf but as it works on another monitor I suspect the one I was using does not like Apple video... Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 15:26:03 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 16:26:03 -0400 Subject: Apple II no video display In-Reply-To: <9C64D54D-4EEC-41CB-8ECC-7D83A7A71BC5@shaw.ca> References: <084901d34f39$eca31fc0$c5e95f40$@gmail.com> <9C64D54D-4EEC-41CB-8ECC-7D83A7A71BC5@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > 74S is faster than 74LS, 74LS was combining low power techniques (which result in loss of speed) with Schottky technology to get some of the lost speed back, to get a better speed-power product than 'normal' TTL. Right. My bad there. > The chronological order of development was 74 --> 74H & L --> 74S --> 74LS I do recall that progression. I've even seen a couple of 74L parts (and there are more than a couple 74H parts in a 1968 PDP-8) -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 27 15:39:23 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:39:23 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7a42840e-fc40-163f-e198-886d7fe6a3b5@bitsavers.org> On 10/27/17 12:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > That doesn't sound even close. http://www.ussc90.nl/circ.htm Ferractors. While computers now are composed by many integrated circuits containing each millions of logical units, processing data with a speed of a few gigabits per second in a parallel-flow of 64 bits, the USSC's CPU-logic was composed of over 1000 circuit boards with each only a few active components. One circuitboard contained only 4 simple logical units, the ferractors. These circuit-boards processed the data with the theoretical speed of 700 KBits/second. The ferractors were tiny transformers, performing one-bit operations, powered by 700 KCs AC. On the positive half of the cycle, the ferractor-core was magnetised or not depending on the current through the bias-coil, which made the total magnetic field in the core to exceed the hysteresis-threshold or not. In the subsequent negative half-cycle the ferractor showed on the secondairy coil a high or a low impedance, depending on whether it had been magnetised or not. On low-impedance a positif bias-current was generated for the next ferractor-circuit. Since each ferractor was set in one cycle-half and was read in the next cycle-half, an one bit-stream of a register was formed by 24 ferractors in series, alternatingly fed by opposite phases. In such a string of ferractor-circuits 12 bits cycled around, 10 bits, a sign and a space. The information in the registers was circling around in 4 parallel one-bit-strings. The data in the registers cycled around with the same speed as the information on the drum-memory. The 200 diode-boards were used in OR and in NAND functions, depending on being located in the positive-phase-circuitry or the negative-one. The bias-coil was connected in positive or negative polarity to enforce or to diminish magnetisation during the first half-cycle in order to create normal or inverting logical gates. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Oct 27 15:38:59 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:38:59 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7A084FEC-A79F-46CF-AFA6-22301720E951@shaw.ca> On 2017-Oct-27, at 12:57 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Oct 27, 2017, at 3:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/27/17 12:16 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I've long had a fantasy about building a core-logic CPU such as the >>> Univac Solid State. >> >> I have been told the behavior of Univac magnetic logic was similar to NMOS > > That doesn't sound even close. It does seem like a strange statement. I wonder if they were just trying to draw an analogy between the inherent dynamic operation requirements of magnetic logic and the dynamic operation requirements of some (many?) NMOS designs (not really inherent to NMOS). > Ken Olsen did his thesis on magnetic core logic. There is some (but surprisingly little) information on line about this technology. There are two flavors: with permanent magnetic cores (memory cores) and with "soft" cores (transformers). Apollo "rope" core memory ROM is an example of the former. > > paul From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 27 15:42:44 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:42:44 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <7A084FEC-A79F-46CF-AFA6-22301720E951@shaw.ca> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> <7A084FEC-A79F-46CF-AFA6-22301720E951@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <27dd7dae-a4ce-6bad-66ce-af54dae216ea@bitsavers.org> On 10/27/17 1:38 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if they were just trying to draw an analogy between the inherent dynamic operation requirements of magnetic logic and the dynamic operation requirements of some (many?) NMOS designs (not really inherent to NMOS). this was a long time ago, and it probably was comparing it to multiphase MOS clocking this came from Mike Albaugh, who had a SS90 at one point. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 27 15:58:05 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:58:05 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <1FE9B5BD-6769-4A63-BF47-BC0466BF7CC9@comcast.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <1FE9B5BD-6769-4A63-BF47-BC0466BF7CC9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/27/2017 01:01 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Oh yes, and if you look at the wire lists (on Bitsavers) you will get the length of every wire in the machine. The trouble is that, even if you use the documented delay per foot, things don't necessarily match. The stated logic stage delay is 5 ns, no special numbers given for twisted pair drivers. In my model, I do everything in 5 ns multiples (to keep the simulation time under control). That works pretty closely, but not 100 percent, not for some of the CPU pieces. The other thing that's nuts is that the CPU effectively has a 20-phase clock: the documentation shows clock signals with offsets from the reference time given in multiples of 5 nanoseconds (for the 100 ns clock period). And yes, it matters. And yes, many (I'm not sure about all) of the 20 phases are actually used in the CPU. I can't recall, but didn't the 6600 have something like 10 clock sources, all kept synchronized? In any case, it's a gross oversimplification to say that the 6600 had a 10 MHz clock. --Chuck From pb at pbcl.net Fri Oct 27 16:00:59 2017 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 22:00:59 +0100 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <7A084FEC-A79F-46CF-AFA6-22301720E951@shaw.ca> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> <7A084FEC-A79F-46CF-AFA6-22301720E951@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <1509138059.3103.9.camel@pbcl.net> On Fri, 2017-10-27 at 13:38 -0700, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if they were just trying to draw an analogy between the > inherent dynamic operation requirements of magnetic logic and the > dynamic operation requirements of some (many?) NMOS designs (not > really inherent to NMOS). On the subject of NMOS dynamic logic, someone recently pointed out a paragraph in the technical manual for a 1990s ARM2-based computer which warned of dire consequences, including possibly destruction of the chipset, if the circuitry was left powered with the clock stopped for more than a second or two. Obviously if the clock is stopped for more than a few hundred microseconds then the logic will start to lose its marbles and the system will need a reset to recover. But I don't think I've previously heard any suggestion that dynamic logic ICs would actually be damaged or destroyed under these circumstances. I can just about imagine that there might be some situation where an invalid internal state would result in a short circuit between power and ground, but that's just supposition really. Anybody know of a case where something bad has actually happened? p. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 27 16:03:59 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 15:03:59 -0600 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/27/2017 1:06 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > True if you have a TTL machine. 6600 is discrete transistor, and the actual transistor specs are nowhere to be found as far as I have been able to tell. Well if you can find one loose, you could allways measure it. > But that doesn't directly relate to gate level emulation. If you have gate level documentation you can of course build a copy of the machine out of actual gate-type parts, like 7400 chips. Or you can write a gate level model in VHDL, which is not the most popular form but certainly perfectly straightforward. Either way, though, you have to start with a document that shows what the gates are in the original and how they connect. And to get it to work, you need to deal with timing issues and logic abuse, if present. In the 6600, both are very present and very critical. For example, I've been debugging a section (the central processor branch logic) where the behavior changes quite substantially depending on whether you favor S or R in an R/S flop, i.e., if both are asserted at the same time, who wins? And the circuit and wire delays matter, down to the few-nanosecond level. You need to find a lucky man, for help. You stand here, and look that way. Yes it works. > > Most machines are not so crazy; I would assume a PDP-11/20 gate level model would be quite painless. > > paul I still have not figured out VHDL yet. Logic that I can figure out, but how you use the the stupid logic blocks I can not with all the stupid type defines. What I need is real reference book, not a DUMMYS GUIDE TO BLA-BLA-BLA. For my own hobby stuff I am useing WINCPUL and ALTERA's AHDL. There a D F/F is D flip flop. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 27 16:05:44 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:05:44 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <7a42840e-fc40-163f-e198-886d7fe6a3b5@bitsavers.org> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> <7a42840e-fc40-163f-e198-886d7fe6a3b5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <714aabd3-13b9-63eb-c4ed-3e9d8a7b84bf@sydex.com> On 10/27/2017 01:39 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/27/17 12:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> That doesn't sound even close. > > http://www.ussc90.nl/circ.htm > > > Ferractors. > Can't forget Parametrons: https://www.thocp.net/hardware/parametron.htm http://museum.ipsj.or.jp/en/heritage/NEAC-1101.html --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 27 16:09:01 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:09:01 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <1509138059.3103.9.camel@pbcl.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> <7A084FEC-A79F-46CF-AFA6-22301720E951@shaw.ca> <1509138059.3103.9.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: <7148a302-d3b6-9188-55a4-91989820b0b7@bitsavers.org> On 10/27/17 2:00 PM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > On the subject of NMOS dynamic logic, someone recently pointed out a > paragraph in the technical manual for a 1990s ARM2-based computer which > warned of dire consequences, including possibly destruction of the > chipset, if the circuitry was left powered with the clock stopped for > more than a second or two. > https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/acorn/microarchitectures/arm2 ARM2 chips were manufactured by VLSI Technology and Sanyo on a 2 ?m double-level metal CMOS process. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 16:36:08 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 22:36:08 +0100 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <714aabd3-13b9-63eb-c4ed-3e9d8a7b84bf@sydex.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> <7a42840e-fc40-163f-e198-886d7fe6a3b5@bitsavers.org> <714aabd3-13b9-63eb-c4ed-3e9d8a7b84bf@sydex.com> Message-ID: <08c501d34f6b$9a451530$cecf3f90$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis via cctalk > Sent: 27 October 2017 22:06 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > On 10/27/2017 01:39 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 10/27/17 12:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> That doesn't sound even close. > > > > http://www.ussc90.nl/circ.htm > > > > > > Ferractors. > > > > Can't forget Parametrons: > > https://www.thocp.net/hardware/parametron.htm > > http://museum.ipsj.or.jp/en/heritage/NEAC-1101.html > > --Chuck The Elliot 803 used ferrite transformers as logic elements.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott_803 Dave From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 27 10:27:11 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:27:11 -0500 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> On 10/27/2017 3:54 AM, Dave Wade via cctech wrote: > Kip, > I think "emulation" and "simulation" get used pretty much interchangeable. > SIMH is touted a simulator, Hercules/390 as an emulator yet they are both > programs that provide a "bare metal" machine via software on which an > operating system can be installed. Neither make any attempt to reproduce the > speed of the original CPU. > > I am going to stick with "emulator" as I think of "simulation" as process > whereby we can model some statistical or mathematical parameters e.g. how > long the queues are in a supermarket, what time is high tide in Boston using > only mathematics. Note this may involve a general purpose computer, or it > may use specialist machines such as the Doodson-Lege Tidal Predictor > > http://www.ntslf.org/about-tides/doodson-machine > > So to return to emulating other computers have at least five different > flavours... > > 1. Functional Software Emulation where we match the functions but not the > speed of operation using a program. SIMH and Hercules are such beasts > For much work this is fine. Most software emulators take this approach. > > 2. Cycle accurate Software Emulation/Simulation where we attempt to match > both function and speed of the underlying hardware. This may be necessary > for software which uses software loops to control say the speed of a UART. I > If you want to use the simulator for historical research this may help. Some > emulators can be switched to this mode when software needs it... > > David Sharp's SSEM/Baby simulator is such a beast. > http://www.davidsharp.com/baby/ > > 3. Behavioural Hardware Emulation > This is where we build a hardware implementation of a machine, but do not > attempt to duplicate the exact detail of the logic or its speed of > operation. Richard Stofer's IBM1130 in VHDL is such a project. > He doesn't have it available on the Web (I have a copy and have run it) > There is a Flash video on the IBM1130.org site > > 4. Cycle Accurate Behavioural Hardware Emulation > This is probably the most common approach to cycle accurate emulations. > Because FPGA's typically run several times faster than the clock on legacy > hardware, and they may contain high level function blocks, e.g. multipliers > its often "relatively easy" to match the instruction times of a legacy CPU > in an FPGA. > > My BabyBaby FPGA implementation of the SSEM FPGA is such a beast. It runs at > the same speed as replica SSEM in MSI Manchester but internally it's a > parallel implementation whereas the real Baby is a serial machine. > https://hackaday.com/2016/01/06/babybaby-a-1948-computer-on-an-fpga/ > > 5. Gate Level Hardware Emulation > It gate level hardware emulation we try and re-implement the hardware down > to the logic gate level. This is hard because FPGA's are may not be designed > to work this way, and gate level design will also have some dependencies on > propagation delays, which on an FPGA will be much smaller than on any real > hardware. A couple of examples of these are > > Laurence Wilkinson's IBM 360/30 http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/ > Carl Claunch's IBM 1130 http://ibm1130.blogspot.co.uk/ > > I hope this doesn't muddy the water too much... > Dave > Well, the waters are sufficiently muddy that I figured little harm would be dine if I throw my weeds in too... ;) I like that you have clearly given this some thought, and have developed a kind of taxonomy, so your comments are valuable because they are not just off-the cuff. Looking online at Merriam-Webster, the conclusion one might reach is that these are all simulators. But emulation is also a term of art when it comes to computers, so I don't think we should shackle ourselves to M-W. I have generally used the term emulator for software that attempts to provide some level of functionality (up to 100%) of the original machine such that software (including operating systems) will operate, without worrying about HOW that is done. So, I would throw most, if not all, of the SimH programs, and Hercules as well into that pot. I would also put the IBM 1401 and 1410 emulators that appeared on early model IBM System/360 machines (which was done using software with microcode assist) into that same bag, as well as the FLEX implementation of the IBM mainframe architectures. So, I am on the same page with you with regards to #1. I have generally used the term simulator for software that attempts to replicate the actual operation of the original machine, regardless of speed - I view speed as just one of several possible measures of the accuracy/level of the simulation. I have written an IBM 1410 simulator that simulates the operation of the original machine at the machine cycle level, based on the IBM CE instructional materials - but it pays no attention at all to the absolute cycle time, only to the relative cycle time (so that peripherals, such as tape drives, work in about the same relative speed to the CPU as the original - in order that diagnostics can be run). [It is convenient that it runs faster than the original. ;) ]. When it comes to hardware, such as FPGA or other hardware that reproduce machine behavior, I think the judgement is different. I would agree with your definition #3, to call these emulations for those implementations which pay little or no attention to the original machine. That said, however, I tend to use the word "implementation" or "model" here. Consider, for example, that the IBM 360 and 370 architecture, and the PDP-11 and VAX architectures were implemented by their original manufacturers (or their competitors, e.g. Amdahl), using very different hardware approaches - some hard wired, some micro-coded, some mixed, for different models of the architecture. But I can see using the term "simulation" in some cases, such as your "BabyBaby". But I would call IBM's P390 an "implementation" of S/390 (and S/370, depending on which firmware you load). With respect to your #5, I have some direct experience with that, and am working on a tricky project to implement the IBM 1410 in a FPGA at the gate level, based on the SMS Automated Logic Diagrams (ALD's). What I have found so far is that a rule or two can be used to deal with the speed and design technology differences. I don't think that the issues pointed out make it "hard", really. The hard part, to me, is deciphering the original design from drawings or other incomplete engineering information. ;) The rules I have developed so far: a. If the original implementation uses cross-connected gates (or transistors), the FPGA model can follow those with a synchronous D flip flop. It usually works because the clock times are often 10 or more times faster or more than the original machine clock. I have successfully used this technique to implement an original design that was not all that great (see "b." below for details) that actually had some race conditions in the original design. The information on this project can be found at: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRcFpNM0o2VDJiWFk b. I did not come across delays in the one project I completed this way (a re-implementation of a design done for a class in college in 1973), but my next project will, and my plan is to use a counter (or, I suppose, a small number of cascaded D flip flops acting as a bucket brigade) in cases where that delay is needed for the implementation to work properly. (In cases where the delay exists only to match propagation times along different wire/cable lengths in the original implementation, one might be able to turn the delay into a wire). JRJ From cramcram at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 10:40:57 2017 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:40:57 -0700 Subject: PDP8.org Message-ID: Is anyone re-hosting pdp8.org yet? Marc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 27 13:46:34 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 12:46:34 -0600 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> Message-ID: <36607404-28e2-d682-6731-cd7066d1b57f@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/27/2017 9:27 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > With respect to your #5, I have some direct experience with that, and am > working on a tricky project to implement the IBM 1410 in a FPGA at the > gate level, based on the SMS Automated Logic Diagrams (ALD's). What I > have found so far is that a rule or two can be used to deal with the > speed and design technology differences. I don't think that the issues > pointed out make it "hard", really. The hard part, to me, is > deciphering the original design from drawings or other incomplete > engineering information. ;) The rules I have developed so far: > > a. If the original implementation uses cross-connected gates (or > transistors), the FPGA model can follow those with a synchronous D > flip flop. It usually works because the clock times are often 10 > or more times faster or more than the original machine clock. I > have successfully used this technique to implement an original > design that was not all that great (see "b." below for details) that > actually had some race conditions in the original design. > > The information on this project can be found at: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRcFpNM0o2VDJiWFk > > b. I did not come across delays in the one project I completed > this way (a re-implementation of a design done for a class in > college in 1973), but my next project will, and my plan is to use a > counter (or, I suppose, a small number of cascaded D flip flops > acting as a bucket brigade) in cases where that delay is needed for > the implementation to work properly. (In cases where the delay > exists only to match propagation times along different wire/cable > lengths in the original implementation, one might be able to turn > the delay into a wire). > > JRJ With some FPGA venders you could get a TTL library components, so you could input older designs. You may have to dig around for them because that is not a NEW selling feature any more. Also logic cells don't have asynchronous set and clear anymore. Ben. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 18:55:22 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 19:55:22 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> <7a42840e-fc40-163f-e198-886d7fe6a3b5@bitsavers.org> <714aabd3-13b9-63eb-c4ed-3e9d8a7b84bf@sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" To: Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > On 10/27/2017 01:39 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 10/27/17 12:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> That doesn't sound even close. >> >> http://www.ussc90.nl/circ.htm >> >> >> Ferractors. >> > > Can't forget Parametrons: > > https://www.thocp.net/hardware/parametron.htm > > http://museum.ipsj.or.jp/en/heritage/NEAC-1101.html > > --Chuck > Or Burroughs' core counters (think I still have some somewhere): https://www.google.com/patents/US3438014 http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2995663.html m From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 19:37:07 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 17:37:07 -0700 Subject: Image de-warping tool, and Multics/GCOS panels In-Reply-To: <20171027153052.6DBF718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171027153052.6DBF718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Does anyone know of any freeware which will fix this? The image tool I > normally use (ImagePals, sort of a poor man's Photoshop) does have a 'warp' > function, but it requires setting up a grid of points, and is a pain to > use: > optimal would be something where you mark the 4 corners, and few > intermediate > edge points, and the image is automagically fixed. > I use gimp to to this; the UI is not intuitive but I was able to work it out through experimentation. -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 27 21:46:59 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 19:46:59 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> <7a42840e-fc40-163f-e198-886d7fe6a3b5@bitsavers.org> <714aabd3-13b9-63eb-c4ed-3e9d8a7b84bf@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0f31d91c-64d6-140d-69ee-ac4127603785@sydex.com> On 10/27/2017 04:55 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Or Burroughs' core counters (think I still have some somewhere): > > https://www.google.com/patents/US3438014 > > http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2995663.html We forget about all of the alternative ways of implementing digital logic. At one time, magnetic core logic was viewed as being much more reliable than either tube or transistor logic, although not as fast. Probably better hardened to radiation, as well. In some respects, core logic reminds me somewhat of the McCulloch-Pitts TLU model described in Minsky's book on Computation: http://www.i-programmer.info/babbages-bag/325-mcculloch-pitts-neural-networks.html --Chuck From sbolton at bfree.on.ca Fri Oct 27 21:59:44 2017 From: sbolton at bfree.on.ca (Syd Bolton) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 22:59:44 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Calendar 2018 In-Reply-To: <93e168777f387f473cdc5da5acf55cdf@bfree.on.ca> References: <93e168777f387f473cdc5da5acf55cdf@bfree.on.ca> Message-ID: Hey folks; The Personal Computer Museum (http://www.pcmuseum.ca) is offering a beautiful 2018 vintage computer calendar as a fundraiser. The calendars are in hand and the cost is $20 Canadian (no tax). The shipping rates (in CAD) are $3.50 within Canada, $5.00 to the U.S. and $10.50 to the rest of the world. We accept Paypal via our website at http://www.pcmuseum.ca/shop.asp If you don't like Paypal, e-mail me directly for other options! The order page includes a sample of what it looks like. The computers included this year are: IBM PC (1981), Kaypro II (1982), Pencil II (1984), Exidy Sorcerer (1978), Commodore PET 4032 (1980), Apple ][+ (1979), Apple PowerBook 150 (1994), Commodore 64 (1982), NeXTcube (1980), Superbrain QD (1979), Atari 800 (1979), Unisys ICON (1986) If you are interested please reply here or to info at pcmuseum.ca .... The quantities are limited. Thanks for your support! From steven at malikoff.com Fri Oct 27 23:59:03 2017 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 14:59:03 +1000 Subject: Image de-warping tool, and Multics/GCOS panels In-Reply-To: <20171027153052.6DBF718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171027153052.6DBF718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Noeal asked: > I'm having an issue with the images, though: taking a picture of a flat, > rectangular panel with a camera usually produces distortion (even with the > lens set to the narrowest angle possible). > > Does anyone know of any freeware which will fix this? The image tool I > normally use (ImagePals, sort of a poor man's Photoshop) does have a 'warp' > function, but it requires setting up a grid of points, and is a pain to use: > optimal would be something where you mark the 4 corners, and few intermediate > edge points, and the image is automagically fixed. You could do it "by eye" in Photoshop and GIMP-type tools, but I believe a far better and more adjustable way is to use an operation in imagemagick called affine transformation. With this you can tweak the result programmatically to the nearest pixel-to-millimetre value to get the best result. For instance I have done an analogous task in which I removed perspective from black and white images of a WWII vehicle onto a flat elevation, so that accurate markings and camouflage patterns or precise positions of fittings can be obtained, by only knowing the basic perimeter edges. To do this, I firstly need an accurate measurement of the side of the vehicle. Its exact length, height will do. This is easily obtained from scale modelling information. In your particular case, I think only the width and height of the panel would be needed, OR the two expressed as a ratio and scaled later. WORKED EXAMPLE: Let's take for example an IBM System/360-40 console. It is comprised of a few individual panels but they are arranged in two larger rectangles, joined along one ege, but with an angle of about 163 degrees between them. The upper panel's flat measurements are 711mm wide and 477mm long. The lower panel is 71mm wide by 199mm high, as flat. Say I then found any sufficiently detailed photo of a /40 console, and wanted to map the surface of that to my known panel edge measurements. The photo is of course taken from any arbitrary angle. I will use this one, 1200x953 pixels, presenting a common three-quarter side view, taken fron the left: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/IBM_System_360_at_USDA.jpg/1200px-IBM_System_360_at_USDA.jpg The angled panels also show in the photo but that will be removed. Save the image locally. I tend to start at the pixel that is the top right corner. The image editor places the origin at the top left corner. Essentially the corners of the console rectangle in the photo - taking the upper panel only, for this example - need to be stretched to my known rectangle of TR=(711,0) to BR= (711,477) to BL=(0,477) to TL=(0,0). The rectangular polygon will automatically be closed back to the start. I'm using mm but you could use any measurement unit you like. Next, load the above photo of the console in any good-enough image editor. I use the free Paint.NET for this purpose and I absolutely love it. Move around the photo, zoom in etc. and place the mouse cursor exactly on the top right corner and take a note of the pixel coordinate shown in the lower right of the app. I make it to be (675,141) on that particular photo. Then do the same for the bottom right, bottom left, top left corner pixels. Remember this is the top panel only, the lower is done in the same fashion seperately. These are done in the same point-to-point sequence as the known measurements, and must be the same number of coordinates. It does not have to be a rectangle, you may have five, six or more coordinates for a say a vehicle or spaceship scale elevation. So directly off the photo: 675,141 TR 646,315 BR 442,336 BL 458,129 TL Now, assuming Imagemagick is installed, all we need to is tell it to stretch those coordinates to our known actual square coordinates by pairing them, pixel-to-known coordinate. On the command line, or in a text file enter and paste into the shell (I use git bash on Windows): convert 1200px-IBM_System_360_at_USDA.jpg -virtual-pixel black -distort Perspective "675,141 711,0 646,315 711,477 442,336 0,477 458,129 0,0" Model40_upper_panel_transformed_true_flat1.jpg Now the required de-perspective image will be in Model40_upper_panel_transformed_true_flat.jpg If you don't want to go through the above steps yourself you can see the result at http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/Model40_upper_panel_transformed_true_flat1.jpg Then use the image editor rubber banding to select the required amount of this true flattened image, now using the original actual measurements as the pixel coordinates for cropping. eg. TR edge is pixel (711,0) etc. If the simple Perspective operation doesn't gove you a good result, try some other Imagemagick operations eg: convert 1200px-IBM_System_360_at_USDA.jpg -virtual-pixel black -interpolate Spline -distort BilinearForward "675,141 711,0 646,315 711,477 442,336 0,477 458,129 0,0" Model40_upper_panel_transformed_true_flat2.jpg this result #2 at http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/Model40_upper_panel_transformed_true_flat2.jpg although I tend to find the Perspective does a better job. There is plenty of help on the imagemagick.org site and also Stack Overflow., such as https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12276098/understanding-perspective-projection-distortion-imagemagick Further post-processing for me would be to then load this 711x477 image as the background image layer in CAD where it is fitted to a rectangle of the same size, in actual mm real world dimensions. I can then overdraw all manner of lines, construction lines, circles and other drawing elements to get a near-perfect actual CAD drawing. Every so often I just hide the background layer to see how it looks, and bits I've missed. Sorry about the long blurb but hope it can help you on your panel. Steve. From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Oct 27 17:01:19 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 18:01:19 -0400 Subject: "documentary" Message-ID: The video is produced by an openly libertarian organization: https://www.youtube.com/user/ReasonTV/about. It's an interesting story but that is propaganda not a documentary. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Oct 28 01:41:34 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 02:41:34 -0400 Subject: "documentary" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e7f090d-18ac-5959-a287-b729de465007@snarc.net> (Sorry everyone. That was supposed to be a private email to Sellam. Jay: it was NOT my intention to have a political discussion on the list.) On 10/27/2017 06:01 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > The video is produced by an openly libertarian organization: > https://www.youtube.com/user/ReasonTV/about. It's an interesting story > but that is propaganda not a documentary. > > ________________________________ > Evan Koblentz, director > Vintage Computer Federation > a 501(c)3 educational non-profit > > evan at vcfed.org > (646) 546-9999 > > www.vcfed.org > facebook.com/vcfederation > twitter.com/vcfederation > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 28 05:32:54 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 11:32:54 +0100 Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> <003601d34cf4$ba6615e0$2f3241a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001101d34fd8$1de40790$59ac16b0$@ntlworld.com> > This Nichicon PL 4700?F/10V part as well as all the Chemi-Con SXF parts have > certainly leaked in almost all the H7826 PSUs I have (which have been the > worst in this respect), and consequently the PCB has become sticky in the > output filter area. Beware that in addition to the output filters there's another > SXF part just next to the input filter capacitor; it's visible on one of your photos, > next to the lightning bolt sticker. > Hello Maciej, That 4700uF/10V capacitor is really hard to remove, it seem to be connected to large planes on both sides, which suck all the heat away. I have a suspicion that it may have leaked from the underside as the area around it is certainly quite dirty in a way that suggest the dirt has stuck to something. Did you manage to remove this part without destroying it and without damaging the board? Regards Rob From tingox at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 06:04:58 2017 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 13:04:58 +0200 Subject: PDP8.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 5:40 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > Is anyone re-hosting pdp8.org yet? Why? It works from here (Oslo, Norway) now. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 07:06:06 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 13:06:06 +0100 Subject: PDP8.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09b901d34fe5$23907090$6ab151b0$@gmail.com> Not from the UK ... Both BT and Google servers fail.. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn > Ingolfsen via cctalk > Sent: 28 October 2017 12:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: PDP8.org > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 5:40 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk > wrote: > > Is anyone re-hosting pdp8.org yet? > > Why? > It works from here (Oslo, Norway) now. > > > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 28 07:43:27 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 08:43:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone know who does 'decmuseum.org', PDP-5 pictures Message-ID: <20171028124327.1F93B18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Does anyone know who does this site: http://decmuseum.org/index.html I looked, and didn't see anything in the site itself, and doing a 'whois' didn't turn up anything useful. The site has some really nice PDP-5 photos which I was wondering if that person could/would put in the public domain, so I can use them for a PDP-5 article I'm working on for Wikipedia and the CHWiki. So I'd like to get in contact with them. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 07:48:16 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 08:48:16 -0400 Subject: Anyone know who does 'decmuseum.org', PDP-5 pictures In-Reply-To: <20171028124327.1F93B18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171028124327.1F93B18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 28, 2017 8:43 AM, "Noel Chiappa via cctalk" wrote: > > Does anyone know who does this site: > > http://decmuseum.org/index.html > > I looked, and didn't see anything in the site itself, and doing a 'whois' > didn't turn up anything useful. > > The site has some really nice PDP-5 photos which I was wondering if that > person could/would put in the public domain, so I can use them for a PDP-5 > article I'm working on for Wikipedia and the CHWiki. So I'd like to get in > contact with them. > > Noel IR should not be hard, how many people own a PDP 5? Who is DVQ? Bill From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 09:08:46 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 15:08:46 +0100 Subject: Anyone know who does 'decmuseum.org', PDP-5 pictures In-Reply-To: References: <20171028124327.1F93B18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <09d101d34ff6$46ae8d30$d40ba790$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan via cctalk > Sent: 28 October 2017 13:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; Noel Chiappa > Subject: Re: Anyone know who does 'decmuseum.org', PDP-5 pictures > > On Oct 28, 2017 8:43 AM, "Noel Chiappa via cctalk" > wrote: > > > > Does anyone know who does this site: > > > > http://decmuseum.org/index.html > > > > I looked, and didn't see anything in the site itself, and doing a 'whois' > > didn't turn up anything useful. > > > > The site has some really nice PDP-5 photos which I was wondering if > > that person could/would put in the public domain, so I can use them > > for a PDP-5 article I'm working on for Wikipedia and the CHWiki. So > > I'd like to get in contact with them. > > > > Noel > > IR should not be hard, how many people own a PDP 5? Who is DVQ? > > Bill Well this appears to be DVQ http://www.dvq.com/ and they appear to have an "info" e-mail address for enquiries... .. oddly images on dvq.com appear to have a creative commons licence.... Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 28 09:36:11 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 07:36:11 -0700 Subject: Anyone know who does 'decmuseum.org', PDP-5 pictures In-Reply-To: References: <20171028124327.1F93B18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <69ba19f2-1aae-19c3-c858-a800bf85491a@bitsavers.org> On 10/28/17 5:48 AM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > Who is DVQ? > Bob Rosenbloom. Lives in the Santa Cruz mountains From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 28 10:03:29 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 11:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone know who does 'decmuseum.org', PDP-5 pictures Message-ID: <20171028150329.BDC2A18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Thanks, everyone! Got it. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 11:17:29 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 12:17:29 -0400 Subject: Anyone know who does 'decmuseum.org', PDP-5 pictures In-Reply-To: <20171028150329.BDC2A18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171028150329.BDC2A18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: oh, it's Bob. The circle is complete.... On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 11:03 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thanks, everyone! Got it. > > Noel > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 28 11:32:03 2017 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 09:32:03 -0700 Subject: Anyone know who does 'decmuseum.org', PDP-5 pictures In-Reply-To: <20171028124327.1F93B18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171028124327.1F93B18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2dd4789a-8425-93a7-12fb-d70fc94feff2@sbcglobal.net> On 10/28/2017 5:43 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know who does this site: > > http://decmuseum.org/index.html > > I looked, and didn't see anything in the site itself, and doing a 'whois' > didn't turn up anything useful. > > The site has some really nice PDP-5 photos which I was wondering if that > person could/would put in the public domain, so I can use them for a PDP-5 > article I'm working on for Wikipedia and the CHWiki. So I'd like to get in > contact with them. > > Noel > Hi Noel. That's my site, part of dvq.com. You are welcome to use any of the photos, they were taken by me. If you need specific photos, I should be able to take them for you as the PDP-5 is currently easily accessed. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Oct 28 11:32:20 2017 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 10:32:20 -0600 Subject: NEC 4164-12 Message-ID: <1ae48fcb-c839-4723-822b-2dd4d683d095@e-bbes.com> Hi all, anybody has some spare in the bin, he doesn't need? Looking for 18 pieces, preferably NEC, -12. Thanks! From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 12:21:13 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 19:21:13 +0200 Subject: PDP8.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28 October 2017 at 13:04, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > > Why? > It works from here (Oslo, Norway) now. Not from Prague... ? This site can?t be reached pdp8.org?s server DNS address could not be found. Did you mean http://www.pdp8.net/? Search Google for pdp 8 org ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED ? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Oct 28 12:24:37 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 12:24:37 -0500 Subject: Anyone know who does 'decmuseum.org', PDP-5 pictures In-Reply-To: <20171028124327.1F93B18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171028124327.1F93B18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <59F4BD55.8080900@pico-systems.com> On 10/28/2017 07:43 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know who does this site: > > http://decmuseum.org/index.html > > I looked, and didn't see anything in the site itself, and doing a 'whois' > didn't turn up anything useful. > > The site has some really nice PDP-5 photos which I was wondering if that > person could/would put in the public domain, so I can use them for a PDP-5 > article I'm working on for Wikipedia and the CHWiki. So I'd like to get in > contact with them. > > behind and to the right of the PDP-5 is at least the console of a 360/30! Our PDP-5 had another cabinet to the left, and a desktop surface. We had DecTape drives on it, and a scope output that was so slow as to be nearly useless. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Oct 28 12:25:47 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 12:25:47 -0500 Subject: Anyone know who does 'decmuseum.org', PDP-5 pictures In-Reply-To: <2dd4789a-8425-93a7-12fb-d70fc94feff2@sbcglobal.net> References: <20171028124327.1F93B18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2dd4789a-8425-93a7-12fb-d70fc94feff2@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <59F4BD9B.7040107@pico-systems.com> On 10/28/2017 11:32 AM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > > That's my site, part of dvq.com. You are welcome to use > any of the photos, they were taken by me. > If you need specific photos, I should be able to take them > for you as the PDP-5 is currently easily > accessed. > Is that 360/30 just the console? Jon From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Oct 28 12:26:59 2017 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 18:26:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: <001101d34fd8$1de40790$59ac16b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> <003601d34cf4$ba6615e0$2f3241a0$@ntlworld.com> <001101d34fd8$1de40790$59ac16b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hello Rob, > That 4700uF/10V capacitor is really hard to remove, it seem to be connected > to large planes on both sides, which suck all the heat away. I have a > suspicion that it may have leaked from the underside as the area around it > is certainly quite dirty in a way that suggest the dirt has stuck to > something. > > Did you manage to remove this part without destroying it and without > damaging the board? Yes, in all cases. I didn't recall any issues with unsoldering this part really, using a simple 40W iron and desoldering wick only, and extra flux from a pen. Getting the part out once unsoldered was in my case a bit tricky once or twice because of the daugthercard sitting next having a 220uF/16V KMC part on the daugthercard blocking the 4700uF/10V from the above, but it was eventually doable with some manoeuvre; their position WRT each other seems to vary a bit between individual H7826s and from your photo I infer you have one where this won't be a problem. BTW I chose a Panasonic FR as a replacement (Farnell has them), leaving considerably more space around (make sure you pick the right diameter if you choose this part too, as there are two variants at this capacitance and voltage). Unfortunately lone recapping didn't fix my worst leaked H7826s, I yet need to track down what else has failed. :( Maciej From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Oct 28 12:38:39 2017 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 10:38:39 -0700 Subject: PDP8.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171028103839.45ec7b3d@honcho.bcwi.net> pdp8.org is NOT in: Comcast DNS: nslookup pdp8.org ;; Got SERVFAIL reply from 75.75.75.75, trying next server Server: 75.75.76.76 Address: 75.75.76.76#53 ** server can't find pdp8.org: SERVFAIL Google DNS: nslookup pdp8.org 8.8.8.8 Server: 8.8.8.8 Address: 8.8.8.8#53 ** server can't find pdp8.org: SERVFAIL Lyle --------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 19:21:13 +0200 Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On 28 October 2017 at 13:04, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Why? > > It works from here (Oslo, Norway) now. > > Not from Prague... > > ? > This site can?t be reached > > pdp8.org?s server DNS address could not be found. > > Did you mean http://www.pdp8.net/? > Search Google for pdp 8 org > > ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED > ? > -- Lyle Bickley AF6WS '73 http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Oct 28 12:47:35 2017 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 18:47:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> <003601d34cf4$ba6615e0$2f3241a0$@ntlworld.com> <001101d34fd8$1de40790$59ac16b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Oct 2017, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > Did you manage to remove this part without destroying it and without > > damaging the board? > > Yes, in all cases. I didn't recall any issues with unsoldering this part > really, using a simple 40W iron and desoldering wick only, and extra flux > from a pen. On second thoughts if solder has corroded, which may well be the case given the overall state of your PSU, then you will have troubles melting it, because, obviously, oxides and other compounds which would have formed won't usually melt as easily as metal. In that case I suggest trying mechanical means to remove the contamination and then applying extra solder to increase its mass in the joint before trying to undo it. I do remember having problems with handling corroded joints next to leaked capacitors in my H7874 PSUs, even though those specific joints didn't have any way to lose heat easily. HTH, Maciej From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Oct 28 12:49:04 2017 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 10:49:04 -0700 Subject: PDP8.org In-Reply-To: <20171028103839.45ec7b3d@honcho.bcwi.net> References: <20171028103839.45ec7b3d@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <20171028104904.305934f0@honcho.bcwi.net> WHOIS on pdp8.org yields: ... Admin Name: Aaron Nabil Admin Organization: Aaron Nabil Admin Street: PO BOX 87250 Admin City: Vancouver Admin State/Province: Washington Admin Postal Code: 98687 Admin Country: US Admin Phone: +1.3600000000 Admin Phone Ext: Admin Fax: Admin Fax Ext: Admin Email: krellboy at gmail.com Registry Tech ID: C73226545-LROR Tech Name: Aaron Nabil Tech Organization: Aaron Nabil Tech Street: PO BOX 87250 Tech City: Vancouver Tech State/Province: Washington Tech Postal Code: 98687 Tech Country: US Tech Phone: +1.3600000000 Tech Phone Ext: Tech Fax: Tech Fax Ext: Tech Email: krellboy at gmail.com Name Server: NS2.SPIRITONE.COM Name Server: NS.SPIRITONE.COM DNSSEC: unsigned Checking SPIRITONE DNS Servers yields: lpb at honcho:~> nslookup pdp8.org NS.SPIRITONE.COM nslookup: couldn't get address for 'NS.SPIRITONE.COM': not found lpb at honcho:~> nslookup ns.spiritone.com Server: 75.75.75.75 Address: 75.75.75.75#53 ** server can't find ns.spiritone.com: NXDOMAIN lpb at honcho:~> nslookup ns2.spiritone.com Server: 75.75.75.75 Address: 75.75.75.75#53 ** server can't find ns2.spiritone.com: NXDOMAIN So the Domain is still owned by Aaron, but the domain DNS record points to DNS Servers that are no longer in service or whose name has been changed. Lyle ----------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 10:38:39 -0700 Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > pdp8.org is NOT in: > > Comcast DNS: > nslookup pdp8.org > ;; Got SERVFAIL reply from 75.75.75.75, trying next server > Server: 75.75.76.76 > Address: 75.75.76.76#53 > > ** server can't find pdp8.org: SERVFAIL > > Google DNS: > nslookup pdp8.org 8.8.8.8 > Server: 8.8.8.8 > Address: 8.8.8.8#53 > > ** server can't find pdp8.org: SERVFAIL > > > Lyle > --------------------------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 19:21:13 +0200 > Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > > On 28 October 2017 at 13:04, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > Why? > > > It works from here (Oslo, Norway) now. > > > > Not from Prague... > > > > ? > > This site can?t be reached > > > > pdp8.org?s server DNS address could not be found. > > > > Did you mean http://www.pdp8.net/? > > Search Google for pdp 8 org > > > > ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED > > ? > > > > > -- Lyle Bickley AF6WS '73 http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 28 13:35:10 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 19:35:10 +0100 Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> <003601d34cf4$ba6615e0$2f3241a0$@ntlworld.com> <001101d34fd8$1de40790$59ac16b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002201d3501b$7cfe0e40$76fa2ac0$@ntlworld.com> Thanks Maciej, > Yes, in all cases. I didn't recall any issues with unsoldering this part really, > using a simple 40W iron and desoldering wick only, and extra flux from a pen. Your technique has to be better than mine because I used an iron, a suction desoldering station and a flux pen. However, after multiple attempts throughout the day, I finally succeeded a short while ago. I am not sure what is wrong with my technique. > > Getting the part out once unsoldered was in my case a bit tricky once or twice > because of the daugthercard sitting next having a 220uF/16V KMC part on the > daugthercard blocking the 4700uF/10V from the above, but it was eventually > doable with some manoeuvre; their position WRT each other seems to vary a > bit between individual H7826s and from your photo I infer you have one where > this won't be a problem. Indeed, there is no interference from the capacitor on that daughter board, that didn't cause me a problem. > > BTW I chose a Panasonic FR as a replacement (Farnell has them), leaving > considerably more space around (make sure you pick the right diameter if you > choose this part too, as there are two variants at this capacitance and voltage). > I will have to dig out the replacements I bought a while ago, I can't remember what I chose, but I generally get the ones with higher hour-temperature ratings. > Unfortunately lone recapping didn't fix my worst leaked H7826s, I yet need to > track down what else has failed. :( I wish you luck with that! In my case I have not actually tried powering it on yet, I really wanted to clean it up first as I am sure some of the bits off the heatsinks were likely to create some shorts and I am pretty sure some of these capacitors have leaked. By the way I just noticed a 15uF/25V one next to the fan connector. It isn't one of the SXF ones as far as I can tell, do you recall replacing it? Regards Rob From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 28 13:37:54 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 13:37:54 -0500 Subject: PDP8.org In-Reply-To: <20171028104904.305934f0@honcho.bcwi.net> References: <20171028103839.45ec7b3d@honcho.bcwi.net> <20171028104904.305934f0@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <00aa01d3501b$de317a80$9a946f80$@classiccmp.org> So either it?s a bug and will be fixed soon, or we have a very limited window to grab it before DNS propagates. As always - willing to host any classic computer related websites free of charge. Not trying to take aaron's site if he's still got it, just want to make sure it's preserved. J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley via cctalk Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 12:49 PM To: cctalk Cc: Torfinn Ingolfsen Subject: Re: PDP8.org WHOIS on pdp8.org yields: ... Admin Name: Aaron Nabil Admin Organization: Aaron Nabil Admin Street: PO BOX 87250 Admin City: Vancouver Admin State/Province: Washington Admin Postal Code: 98687 Admin Country: US Admin Phone: +1.3600000000 Admin Phone Ext: Admin Fax: Admin Fax Ext: Admin Email: krellboy at gmail.com Registry Tech ID: C73226545-LROR Tech Name: Aaron Nabil Tech Organization: Aaron Nabil Tech Street: PO BOX 87250 Tech City: Vancouver Tech State/Province: Washington Tech Postal Code: 98687 Tech Country: US Tech Phone: +1.3600000000 Tech Phone Ext: Tech Fax: Tech Fax Ext: Tech Email: krellboy at gmail.com Name Server: NS2.SPIRITONE.COM Name Server: NS.SPIRITONE.COM DNSSEC: unsigned Checking SPIRITONE DNS Servers yields: lpb at honcho:~> nslookup pdp8.org NS.SPIRITONE.COM nslookup: couldn't get address for 'NS.SPIRITONE.COM': not found lpb at honcho:~> nslookup ns.spiritone.com Server: 75.75.75.75 Address: 75.75.75.75#53 ** server can't find ns.spiritone.com: NXDOMAIN lpb at honcho:~> nslookup ns2.spiritone.com Server: 75.75.75.75 Address: 75.75.75.75#53 ** server can't find ns2.spiritone.com: NXDOMAIN So the Domain is still owned by Aaron, but the domain DNS record points to DNS Servers that are no longer in service or whose name has been changed. Lyle ----------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 10:38:39 -0700 Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > pdp8.org is NOT in: > > Comcast DNS: > nslookup pdp8.org > ;; Got SERVFAIL reply from 75.75.75.75, trying next server > Server: 75.75.76.76 > Address: 75.75.76.76#53 > > ** server can't find pdp8.org: SERVFAIL > > Google DNS: > nslookup pdp8.org 8.8.8.8 > Server: 8.8.8.8 > Address: 8.8.8.8#53 > > ** server can't find pdp8.org: SERVFAIL > > > Lyle > --------------------------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 19:21:13 +0200 > Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > > On 28 October 2017 at 13:04, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > Why? > > > It works from here (Oslo, Norway) now. > > > > Not from Prague... > > > > ? > > This site can?t be reached > > > > pdp8.org?s server DNS address could not be found. > > > > Did you mean http://www.pdp8.net/? > > Search Google for pdp 8 org > > > > ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED > > ? > > > > > -- Lyle Bickley AF6WS '73 http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 28 13:40:56 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 19:40:56 +0100 Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> <003601d34cf4$ba6615e0$2f3241a0$@ntlworld.com> <001101d34fd8$1de40790$59ac16b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002301d3501c$4b45ac40$e1d104c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Maciej W. Rozycki [mailto:macro at linux-mips.org] > Sent: 28 October 2017 18:48 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > ; 'dwight' > Subject: RE: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU > > On Sat, 28 Oct 2017, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > > > Did you manage to remove this part without destroying it and without > > > damaging the board? > > > > Yes, in all cases. I didn't recall any issues with unsoldering this > > part really, using a simple 40W iron and desoldering wick only, and > > extra flux from a pen. > > On second thoughts if solder has corroded, which may well be the case given > the overall state of your PSU, then you will have troubles melting it, because, > obviously, oxides and other compounds which would have formed won't usually > melt as easily as metal. In that case I suggest trying mechanical means to > remove the contamination and then applying extra solder to increase its mass > in the joint before trying to undo it. > Yes, I did the extra solder thing too, the problem there was getting it to flow properly, even with extra flux from a pen. I couldn't get much new solder into the joint. I never thought to remove the contamination though, which is probably part of the reason why the extra solder would not flow, one to remember next time. > I do remember having problems with handling corroded joints next to leaked > capacitors in my H7874 PSUs, even though those specific joints didn't have any > way to lose heat easily. > > HTH, > > Maciej From tomasparks.ts at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 05:03:31 2017 From: tomasparks.ts at gmail.com (tom sparks) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:03:31 +1000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA Message-ID: I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes when I am away from my computer the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good options, but i read about the hinge/screen issues I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting accessories, but it has more things to break but I am wounding about other options? From tingox at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 07:17:52 2017 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 14:17:52 +0200 Subject: PDP8.org In-Reply-To: <0ea601d34fe1$cb011cc0$61035640$@gmail.com> References: <0ea601d34fe1$cb011cc0$61035640$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 1:42 PM, Paul Birkel wrote: > Are you sure that you're not looking at a local cache? It doesn't look like a local cache to me: tingo at kg-core1$ curl http://pdp8.org/ | head % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 --:--:-- --:--:-- --:--:-- 0 PDP-8.org: a PDP-8 and PDP-12 resource 100 8656 100 8656 0 0 8656 0 0:00:01 --:--:-- 0:00:01 30265 curl: (23) Failed writing body (0 != 1603) and tingo at kg-core1$ host pdp8.org pdp8.org has address 216.99.193.149 pdp8.org mail is handled by 10 mx.spiritone.com. tingo at kg-core1$ ping pdp8.org PING pdp8.org (216.99.193.149): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 216.99.193.149: icmp_seq=0 ttl=55 time=139.792 ms 64 bytes from 216.99.193.149: icmp_seq=1 ttl=55 time=140.435 ms ^C --- pdp8.org ping statistics --- 2 packets transmitted, 2 packets received, 0.0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 139.792/140.113/140.435/0.322 ms HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 07:44:28 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 08:44:28 -0400 Subject: PDP8.org In-Reply-To: References: <0ea601d34fe1$cb011cc0$61035640$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 28, 2017 8:18 AM, "Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctech" < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 1:42 PM, Paul Birkel wrote: > > Are you sure that you're not looking at a local cache? > > It doesn't look like a local cache to me: > tingo at kg-core1$ curl http://pdp8.org/ | head This site can?t be reached www.pdp-8.org?s server DNS address could not be found. Search Google for pdp org postinfo ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED I can only get to a cached copy. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.pdp-8.org/postinfo.txt Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From lars at nocrew.org Sat Oct 28 09:50:57 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 14:50:57 +0000 Subject: PDP8.org In-Reply-To: (william degnan via cctech's message of "Sat, 28 Oct 2017 08:44:28 -0400") References: <0ea601d34fe1$cb011cc0$61035640$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7winez497y.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> William Degnan wrote: > This site can?t be reached > > www.pdp-8.org?s server DNS address could not be found. > Search Google for pdp org postinfo > ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED The DNS names for the pdp8.org name servers fail to resolve. The name server at 216.99.193.149 does respond to requests for pdp8.org. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 14:49:58 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 15:49:58 -0400 Subject: PDP8.org In-Reply-To: <00aa01d3501b$de317a80$9a946f80$@classiccmp.org> References: <20171028103839.45ec7b3d@honcho.bcwi.net> <20171028104904.305934f0@honcho.bcwi.net> <00aa01d3501b$de317a80$9a946f80$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: My PC set up to use OpenDNS works for this domain, my phone using comcast's 75.75.75.75 dns does not TOR browser does not. On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > So either it?s a bug and will be fixed soon, or we have a very limited > window to grab it before DNS propagates. > > As always - willing to host any classic computer related websites free of > charge. Not trying to take aaron's site if he's still got it, just want to > make sure it's preserved. > > J > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lyle > Bickley via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 12:49 PM > To: cctalk > Cc: Torfinn Ingolfsen > Subject: Re: PDP8.org > > WHOIS on pdp8.org yields: > ... > Admin Name: Aaron Nabil > Admin Organization: Aaron Nabil > Admin Street: PO BOX 87250 > Admin City: Vancouver > Admin State/Province: Washington > Admin Postal Code: 98687 > Admin Country: US > Admin Phone: +1.3600000000 > Admin Phone > Ext: Admin Fax: > Admin Fax Ext: > Admin Email: krellboy at gmail.com > Registry Tech ID: C73226545-LROR > Tech Name: Aaron Nabil > Tech Organization: Aaron Nabil > Tech Street: PO BOX 87250 > Tech City: Vancouver > Tech State/Province: Washington > Tech Postal Code: 98687 > Tech Country: US > Tech Phone: +1.3600000000 > Tech Phone Ext: > Tech Fax: > Tech Fax Ext: > Tech Email: krellboy at gmail.com > Name Server: NS2.SPIRITONE.COM > Name Server: NS.SPIRITONE.COM > DNSSEC: unsigned > > Checking SPIRITONE DNS Servers yields: > > lpb at honcho:~> nslookup pdp8.org NS.SPIRITONE.COM > nslookup: couldn't get address for 'NS.SPIRITONE.COM': not found > lpb at honcho:~> nslookup ns.spiritone.com > Server: 75.75.75.75 > Address: 75.75.75.75#53 > > ** server can't find ns.spiritone.com: NXDOMAIN > > lpb at honcho:~> nslookup ns2.spiritone.com > Server: > 75.75.75.75 Address: 75.75.75.75#53 > > ** server can't find ns2.spiritone.com: NXDOMAIN > > So the Domain is still owned by Aaron, but the domain DNS record points to > DNS Servers that are no longer in service or whose name has been changed. > > Lyle > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 10:38:39 -0700 > Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > > > pdp8.org is NOT in: > > > > Comcast DNS: > > nslookup pdp8.org > > ;; Got SERVFAIL reply from 75.75.75.75, trying next server > > Server: 75.75.76.76 > > Address: 75.75.76.76#53 > > > > ** server can't find pdp8.org: SERVFAIL > > > > Google DNS: > > nslookup pdp8.org 8.8.8.8 > > Server: 8.8.8.8 > > Address: 8.8.8.8#53 > > > > ** server can't find pdp8.org: SERVFAIL > > > > > > Lyle > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 19:21:13 +0200 > > Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > > > > On 28 October 2017 at 13:04, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > It works from here (Oslo, Norway) now. > > > > > > Not from Prague... > > > > > > ? > > > This site can?t be reached > > > > > > pdp8.org?s server DNS address could not be found. > > > > > > Did you mean http://www.pdp8.net/? > > > Search Google for pdp 8 org > > > > > > ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Lyle Bickley > AF6WS '73 > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > > From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 14:52:56 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 21:52:56 +0200 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28 October 2017 at 12:03, tom sparks via cctalk wrote: > I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes when I > am away from my computer > > the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion > 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good options, > but i read about the hinge/screen issues > > I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting > accessories, > but it has more things to break > > but I am wounding about other options? "Wondering"? :-) There were a few classics. IME the Psion 5/5mx keyboard was the best by a country mile, but they're old and fragile now. HP 200LX. http://ktgee.net/post/100483254827/hp-200lx-review-an-ibm-pc-xt-in-your-pocket HP Jornada 720 or 728, possibly the ultimate ARM PocketPC devices. http://ktgee.net/post/99630645047/hp-jornada-720-review-hps-last-palmtop NTT Docomo Sigmarion 3: http://www.hpcfactor.com/reviews/hardware/ntt-do-co-mo/sigmarion-3/ Late-model NEC MobilePro, e.g. 900C: https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=MobilePro&item_type=topic The GDP Pocket is a sort of modern equivalent and is actually on sale now: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gpd-pocket-7-0-umpc-laptop-ubuntu-or-win-10-os-laptop--2#/ The Gemini PDA looks more Psion-like -- the GDP is really just a very small miniaturised laptop -- but it's not ready yet. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gemini-pda-android-linux-keyboard-mobile-device-phone#/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Oct 28 14:56:13 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 15:56:13 -0400 Subject: Anyone know who does 'decmuseum.org', PDP-5 pictures Message-ID: <120c08.7ca29660.47263add@aol.com> Hi Noel - http://www.dvq.com/ is the master site it seems.. I goggled dvg and dec as it said it was copyrighted dvg I figured that would show up elsewhere and it did. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/28/2017 5:43:37 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Does anyone know who does this site: http://decmuseum.org/index.html I looked, and didn't see anything in the site itself, and doing a 'whois' didn't turn up anything useful. The site has some really nice PDP-5 photos which I was wondering if that person could/would put in the public domain, so I can use them for a PDP-5 article I'm working on for Wikipedia and the CHWiki. So I'd like to get in contact with them. Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 15:31:36 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 16:31:36 -0400 Subject: NEC 4164-12 In-Reply-To: References: <1ae48fcb-c839-4723-822b-2dd4d683d095@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: Hi, Emanuel, I have a quantity of 4164 DRAM from the Comboard days, new in tube. It is likely to mostly be 150ns and I don't know the brands until I dig it out, but I will check when I get home. If it matches what you need, I'm happy to send some to you. -ethan On Oct 28, 2017 12:32, "emanuel stiebler via cctalk" wrote: Hi all, anybody has some spare in the bin, he doesn't need? Looking for 18 pieces, preferably NEC, -12. Thanks! From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Oct 28 15:01:58 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 16:01:58 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes when I >> am away from my computer Hi Tom. Welcome to 1997. :-) >> the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion >> 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good options, >> but i read about the hinge/screen issues >> >> I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting >> accessories, >> but it has more things to break >> >> but I am wounding about other options? > > "Wondering"? :-) Tom - Here's the dilemma. The pocket-sized DOS computers (HP-200, Atari Portfolio, etc.) are too small for their keyboards to be useful. The larger ones (all the Windows CE stuff that Liam mentioned, along with the awesome Psion Series 7/Psion Netbook) have good keyboards and screens, but they're fragile and kind of exotic for modern purposes. For me, the solution is modern produts. I use a high-end Android smartphone and a low-end Chromebook. Either one is excellent when I need a quick/simple note-taking device. With the phone I use the "Google Keep" app for quite notes/lists. With the Chromebook I use an offline app just called "Text" because it's extremely fast and has good options. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 18:19:43 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 19:19:43 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you are interested I have a HP jornada 680 with the charger and the serial cable. I used it as a serial terminal until I replaced it with a netbook. I have not used it in a while, when you need something compact with a real keyboard, it gets the job done. --Devin On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 4:01 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: >>> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes when >>> I >>> am away from my computer > > > Hi Tom. > > Welcome to 1997. :-) > > >>> the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion >>> 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good options, >>> but i read about the hinge/screen issues >>> >>> I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting >>> accessories, >>> but it has more things to break >>> >>> but I am wounding about other options? >> >> >> "Wondering"? :-) > > > > Tom - Here's the dilemma. The pocket-sized DOS computers (HP-200, Atari > Portfolio, etc.) are too small for their keyboards to be useful. The larger > ones (all the Windows CE stuff that Liam mentioned, along with the awesome > Psion Series 7/Psion Netbook) have good keyboards and screens, but they're > fragile and kind of exotic for modern purposes. > > For me, the solution is modern produts. I use a high-end Android smartphone > and a low-end Chromebook. Either one is excellent when I need a quick/simple > note-taking device. With the phone I use the "Google Keep" app for quite > notes/lists. With the Chromebook I use an offline app just called "Text" > because it's extremely fast and has good options. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 29 00:14:04 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 05:14:04 +0000 Subject: NEC 4164-12 In-Reply-To: References: <1ae48fcb-c839-4723-822b-2dd4d683d095@e-bbes.com> , Message-ID: One caution for 4164s. When they first came out, there were some that were 256 cycle refresh and others that were 128 cycle. There is no way by looking at them to tell which is which other than getting a matching original manufacture document. Many machines expect 128 cycle. You can use 256 cycle on chips designed for 128 but not the other way around. Most Z80 setups only do 128 unless it has additional hardware to handle the extra bit ( not to likely ). Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ethan Dicks via cctalk Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 1:31:36 PM To: e. stiebler; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: NEC 4164-12 Hi, Emanuel, I have a quantity of 4164 DRAM from the Comboard days, new in tube. It is likely to mostly be 150ns and I don't know the brands until I dig it out, but I will check when I get home. If it matches what you need, I'm happy to send some to you. -ethan On Oct 28, 2017 12:32, "emanuel stiebler via cctalk" wrote: Hi all, anybody has some spare in the bin, he doesn't need? Looking for 18 pieces, preferably NEC, -12. Thanks! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 29 00:19:53 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 22:19:53 -0700 Subject: NEC 4164-12 In-Reply-To: References: <1ae48fcb-c839-4723-822b-2dd4d683d095@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <0ded485c-d1f7-1e62-a092-c0e5ce24980f@sydex.com> On 10/28/2017 10:14 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > One caution for 4164s. When they first came out, there were some that were 256 cycle refresh and others that were 128 cycle. > > There is no way by looking at them to tell which is which other than getting a matching original manufacture document. > > Many machines expect 128 cycle. You can use 256 cycle on chips designed for 128 but not the other way around. > > Most Z80 setups only do 128 unless it has additional hardware to handle the extra bit ( not to likely ). > There's a great chart of the 4164s and their characteristics here: http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/4164.htm NEC 4164 use 128 cycle refresh, but so do many others. --Chuck From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 00:45:50 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 00:45:50 -0500 Subject: TVTropes mention of a certain computer magazine Message-ID: <20171029054550.GB61728@gmail.com> I was just wasting time with TVTropes and, on the page http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FandomBerserkButton, came across this quote: The editor of one early (late 1970s) British computer magazine persistently claimed that the difference between compilers and interpreters was "academic", even in the face of corrections from knowledgeable readers, until one month he learned the hard way just how wrong he was, by wasting three pages of the mag on a worthless hex-dump of the workspace of a BASIC interpreter. The mag didn't last very much longer after that issue. Does anyone know what magazine this was? I'm not sure I understand what the hex dump thing is all about. -- Eric Christopherson From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 18:37:25 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 19:37:25 -0400 Subject: Picked up tandy 1000 TX Message-ID: I picked up a tandy 1000 TX with a color CM 11 monitor. Both are in the original boxes with keyboard,monitor and the printer cable. It powers on but i can not seem to get it to boot from the floppy drive. Ive tried writing 720K boot disks from my windows computer but it is still not booting. Some better pictures to follow soon. I do not particularly need such a machine, and am open to trade or offers. If no one wants it perhaps it can be put to use as a BBS or something packet radio related over here. Also, the boxes both had us goverment stickers on them, kinda intersting. https://s20.postimg.org/fr7iox7kt/image3.jpg --Devin From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 20:50:32 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:50:32 -0500 Subject: PDP8.org Message-ID: <59f533eb.50339d0a.62c0d.357d@mx.google.com> The wayback machine sorta of details the end of the site. Not sure how much data is archived in archive.org. null From cube1 at charter.net Sat Oct 28 20:55:52 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:55:52 -0500 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <36607404-28e2-d682-6731-cd7066d1b57f@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <36607404-28e2-d682-6731-cd7066d1b57f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 10/27/2017 1:46 PM, ben via cctech wrote: > On 10/27/2017 9:27 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > > > With some FPGA venders you could get a TTL library components, > so you could input older designs. You may have to dig around for them > because that is not a NEW selling feature any more. Also logic > cells don't have asynchronous? set and clear anymore. > > Ben. > I suppose, though writing a little HDL to provide the function of a TTL gate isn't very hard. As it turns out, the design I replicated from my college days was actually DTL, rather than TTL. The lab consisted of 4 19" racks with interconnecting, differentially driven cables. Each rack had a card cage, and interconnections were done using re-purposed IBM unit-record plugboards. The current project, the IBM 1410, was originally designed using IBM SMS - discrete transistors. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 21:09:46 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 19:09:46 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> Message-ID: IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in 1964. They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on a computer to simulate a different computer. Anything you run on your x86 (or ARM, MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, etc) does not meet that definition, and is a simulator, since those processors have only general-purpose hardware and microcode. Lots of people have other definitions of "emulator" which they've just pulled out of their a**, but since the System/360 architects invented it, I see no good reason to prefer anyone else's definition. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 29 08:30:52 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 13:30:52 +0000 Subject: NEC 4164-12 In-Reply-To: <0ded485c-d1f7-1e62-a092-c0e5ce24980f@sydex.com> References: <1ae48fcb-c839-4723-822b-2dd4d683d095@e-bbes.com> , <0ded485c-d1f7-1e62-a092-c0e5ce24980f@sydex.com> Message-ID: Nice chart Chuck. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 10:19:53 PM To: dwight via cctalk Subject: Re: NEC 4164-12 On 10/28/2017 10:14 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > One caution for 4164s. When they first came out, there were some that were 256 cycle refresh and others that were 128 cycle. > > There is no way by looking at them to tell which is which other than getting a matching original manufacture document. > > Many machines expect 128 cycle. You can use 256 cycle on chips designed for 128 but not the other way around. > > Most Z80 setups only do 128 unless it has additional hardware to handle the extra bit ( not to likely ). > There's a great chart of the 4164s and their characteristics here: http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/4164.htm NEC 4164 use 128 cycle refresh, but so do many others. --Chuck From tomasparks.ts at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 05:05:48 2017 From: tomasparks.ts at gmail.com (tom sparks) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 20:05:48 +1000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes >>> when I >>> am away from my computer > > Hi Tom. > > Welcome to 1997. :-) > > >>> the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion >>> 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good >>> options, >>> but i read about the hinge/screen issues >>> >>> I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting >>> accessories, >>> but it has more things to break >>> >>> but I am wounding about other options? >> >> "Wondering"? :-) > > > Tom - Here's the dilemma. The pocket-sized DOS computers (HP-200, > Atari Portfolio, etc.) are too small for their keyboards to be useful. > The larger ones (all the Windows CE stuff that Liam mentioned, along > with the awesome Psion Series 7/Psion Netbook) have good keyboards and > screens, but they're fragile and kind of exotic for modern purposes. > > For me, the solution is modern produts. I use a high-end Android > smartphone and a low-end Chromebook. Either one is excellent when I > need a quick/simple note-taking device. With the phone I use the > "Google Keep" app for quite notes/lists. With the Chromebook I use an > offline app just called "Text" because it's extremely fast and has > good options. I want something that has anti-procrastinate features (no internet, no videos, no mp3s, etc), long battery life (40+ hours), easy replaceable batteries PS: I am adding it to my "off-line" gobag also From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Oct 29 07:42:16 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:42:16 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> Message-ID: <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> > On Oct 28, 2017, at 10:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech wrote: > > IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in 1964. > They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on a > computer to simulate a different computer. That's certainly a successful early commercial implementation of emulation, done using a particular implementation approach. At least for some of the emulator features -- I believe you're talking about the 1401 emulator. IBM didn't use that all the time; the emulator feature in the 360 model 44, to emlulate the missing instructions, uses standard 360 code. It's not clear if that IBM product amounts to inventing emulation. It seems likely there are earlier ones, possibly not with that particular choice of implementation techniques. > Anything you run on your x86 (or ARM, MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, etc) does not > meet that definition, and is a simulator, since those processors have only > general-purpose hardware and microcode. > > Lots of people have other definitions of "emulator" which they've just > pulled out of their a**, but since the System/360 architects invented it, I > see no good reason to prefer anyone else's definition. "emulation" is just a standard English word. I don't see a good reason to limit its application here to a specific intepretation given to it in a particular IBM product. It's not as if IBM's terminology is necessarily the predominant one in IT (consider "data set"). And in particular, as was pointed out before, "emulator" has a quite specific (and different) meaning in the 1980s through 2000 or so in microprocessor development hardware. paul From cube1 at charter.net Sun Oct 29 08:52:54 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:52:54 -0500 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> Message-ID: On 10/28/2017 9:09 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in > 1964. They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode > on a computer to simulate a different computer. > > Anything you run on your x86 (or ARM, MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, etc) does not > meet that definition, and is a simulator, since those processors have > only general-purpose hardware and microcode. > > Lots of people have other definitions of "emulator" which they've just > pulled out of their a**, but since the System/360 architects invented > it, I see no good reason to prefer anyone else's definition. > Well, I can think of a few. From spending some time today with the IBM 360 catalog of programs for Model 25 and above (GC20-1619-8), IBM was not entirely consistent with their terminology. First of all, a lot of the products/applications that they called emulators were in fact a *combination* of software with some microcode hardware assist. But they chose to call those emulators as well. In some of those cases, the emulated application could run side-by-side with other S/360 programs, and in some cases not. The ones I have spend the most time investigating over the years are 360C-EU-736 and 360-EU-738 - the 1410/7010 emulators. I actually tracked down the source code for one of those at one point (though I don't remember which of the two, and where I stuck it at present). I think it was on one of the 360 DOS distributions available for use under Hercules. What I found was that it was almost all software, but with hardware assist for the move and compare instructions. >From the description in the catalog: "DESCRIPTION - The 1710[sic]/7010 Emulator program is a stand-alone program which, with the 1410/7010 Compatibility Feature (No. 4478) [ed. - the microcode assist] executes 1410/7010 programs on a System/360 Model 50. The Emulator program is an interpreter simulator that uses both standard System/360 instructions ans special instructions provided by the Compatibility feature..." Secondly, your preferred use of the terms emulator and simulator seems to go rather against the grain of how those terms are commonly applied in English in general. In ordinary English, the term emulation is typically applied to observed *behavior*, whereas simulation is typically applied to a more fine-grained reproduction of how that behavior comes to be. That is what led me down the exact opposite path that you have gone down. It was absolutely not, as you say, pulled out of anyone's a**. I and many others came to whatever definitions we use with a fair amount of thought. Finally, this was IBM's use of these terms of art from a long long time ago, and to borrow from your words, I "see no good reason" to be particularly bound by them. The reality is that without some kind of body which would provide specific definitions, such as those in the legal and medical professions, this discussion is endless and the waters sufficiently muddy as to be opaque. JRJ From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 10:17:50 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 11:17:50 -0400 Subject: NEC 4164-12 References: <1ae48fcb-c839-4723-822b-2dd4d683d095@e-bbes.com> , <0ded485c-d1f7-1e62-a092-c0e5ce24980f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <81203B0412A343A69303AD7717041198@310e2> Ray also has similar reference charts for 4116 & 41256 type chips on his most excellent (PC-centric) site : http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/4116.htm http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/41256.htm m ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight via cctalk" To: "Chuck Guzis" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 9:30 AM Subject: Re: NEC 4164-12 Nice chart Chuck. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 10:19:53 PM To: dwight via cctalk Subject: Re: NEC 4164-12 On 10/28/2017 10:14 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > One caution for 4164s. When they first came out, there were some that were 256 cycle refresh and others that were 128 cycle. > > There is no way by looking at them to tell which is which other than getting a matching original manufacture document. > > Many machines expect 128 cycle. You can use 256 cycle on chips designed for 128 but not the other way around. > > Most Z80 setups only do 128 unless it has additional hardware to handle the extra bit ( not to likely ). > There's a great chart of the 4164s and their characteristics here: http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/4164.htm NEC 4164 use 128 cycle refresh, but so do many others. --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 10:22:05 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 11:22:05 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers for the very reason you mention. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom sparks via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 6:05 AM Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA > > > On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes >>>> when I >>>> am away from my computer >> >> Hi Tom. >> >> Welcome to 1997. :-) >> >> >>>> the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion >>>> 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good >>>> options, >>>> but i read about the hinge/screen issues >>>> >>>> I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting >>>> accessories, >>>> but it has more things to break >>>> >>>> but I am wounding about other options? >>> >>> "Wondering"? :-) >> >> >> Tom - Here's the dilemma. The pocket-sized DOS computers (HP-200, >> Atari Portfolio, etc.) are too small for their keyboards to be useful. >> The larger ones (all the Windows CE stuff that Liam mentioned, along >> with the awesome Psion Series 7/Psion Netbook) have good keyboards and >> screens, but they're fragile and kind of exotic for modern purposes. >> >> For me, the solution is modern produts. I use a high-end Android >> smartphone and a low-end Chromebook. Either one is excellent when I >> need a quick/simple note-taking device. With the phone I use the >> "Google Keep" app for quite notes/lists. With the Chromebook I use an >> offline app just called "Text" because it's extremely fast and has >> good options. > I want something that has anti-procrastinate features (no internet, no > videos, no mp3s, etc), > long battery life (40+ hours), > easy replaceable batteries > > PS: I am adding it to my "off-line" gobag also From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 29 10:45:14 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:45:14 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> Message-ID: An old kerfuffle over terms. Speaking for myself, I use "emulate" when it involves human characteristics. "I seek to emulate Abraham Lincoln". "Simulate" is probably a better term to use for inanimate objects. I've never liked the e-word when used in connection with computers--but I'm a traditionalist. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 10:53:53 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 15:53:53 -0000 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> Message-ID: <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning via cctalk > Sent: 29 October 2017 12:42 > To: Eric Smith ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > > > On Oct 28, 2017, at 10:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech > wrote: > > > > IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in > 1964. > > They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on > > a computer to simulate a different computer. > I am not sure they invented computer emulation. I think that the concept Emulation/Simulation is as old as, or perhaps even older than computing. Whilst it was a pure concept Alan Turing's "Universal Turing Machine" was a Turing machine that could emulate or simulate the behaviour of any arbitrary Turing machine... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Turing_machine .. and somewhat later when ENIAC was re-wired to execute programs stored in the function switchs, this was a partial simulation/emulation of EDSAC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC#Improvements well that's what Crispin Rope asserts, but his book is still copyright and I can't find any reference to this on the net,, > That's certainly a successful early commercial implementation of emulation, > done using a particular implementation approach. At least for some of the > emulator features -- I believe you're talking about the 1401 emulator. IBM > didn't use that all the time; the emulator feature in the 360 model 44, to > emlulate the missing instructions, uses standard 360 code. > > It's not clear if that IBM product amounts to inventing emulation. It seems > likely there are earlier ones, possibly not with that particular choice of > implementation techniques. > > > > Anything you run on your x86 (or ARM, MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, etc) does > > not meet that definition, and is a simulator, since those processors > > have only general-purpose hardware and microcode. > > > > Lots of people have other definitions of "emulator" which they've just > > pulled out of their a**, but since the System/360 architects invented > > it, I see no good reason to prefer anyone else's definition. > > "emulation" is just a standard English word. I don't see a good reason to limit > its application here to a specific intepretation given to it in a particular IBM > product. It's not as if IBM's terminology is necessarily the predominant one > in IT (consider "data set"). And in particular, as was pointed out before, > "emulator" has a quite specific (and different) meaning in the 1980s through > 2000 or so in microprocessor development hardware. > > paul Dave From lorrywoodman at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 10:53:42 2017 From: lorrywoodman at gmail.com (Lawrence Woodman) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 15:53:42 +0000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> Message-ID: <1cd6e35e-dfe2-6de1-0015-f9117499cc31@gmail.com> On 29/10/17 15:22, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers for the very reason you mention. > > m > > On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes >>>>> when I >>>>> am away from my computer >>> I was also thinking of something a little bit bigger, such as the M100.? The Cambridge Z88 is an excellent machine and they are still being sold new in box. ?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Z88 Lorry From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Oct 29 11:07:06 2017 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 16:07:06 +0000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <1cd6e35e-dfe2-6de1-0015-f9117499cc31@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd second the Z88. A lot of people get put off by the keyboard but it actually works really well, and I'm a proper mechanical keyboard snob. You get can a proper turn of speed up on it. Mark On 29 Oct 2017 4:04 p.m., "Lawrence Woodman via cctalk" < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: On 29/10/17 15:22, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some > writers for the very reason you mention. > > m > > On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes >>>>> when I >>>>> am away from my computer >>>>> >>>> >>> I was also thinking of something a little bit bigger, such as the M100. The Cambridge Z88 is an excellent machine and they are still being sold new in box. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Z88 Lorry From brain at jbrain.com Sun Oct 29 12:14:41 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 12:14:41 -0500 Subject: HEXTIr - TI HexBus SD Drive Message-ID: <93825bed-c437-797a-afad-baff08dc0492@jbrain.com> In case anyone has a fondness for niche tech... At VCF-SE this year, the TI folks had a great exhibit, and perusing it I saw an unfamiliar machine, the TI CC-40 (Compact Computer-40).? While I was investigating, the exhibitor (MillipedeMan aka Mark), told me the machines were frustrating to use, as TI only supported one communications method on the unit, a proprietary protocol called HexBus, and produced very low quantities of very few peripherals that work on the bus. Most frustratingly, they never producing a mass storage device in any appreciable quantity, and there was no other way to save programs written on the unit. Mark did note there was an eBay seller liquidating units, so I bought a 2 unit combo from eBay before I left the show. Sadly, Summer happened, but I was finally able to get to the unit, and started working on an SD-based mass storage device for the unit.? It was an interesting journey to learn a new protocol. The (development in progress) result is HEX-TI-r, the HexBus SD drive: GitHub source code is here: https://github.com/go4retro/HEXTIr Video of unit operating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX5ahVCRdvM I don't have a project page up yet, but will work on that. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Oct 29 12:33:01 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 12:33:01 -0500 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <36607404-28e2-d682-6731-cd7066d1b57f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <59F610CD.6010402@pico-systems.com> On 10/28/2017 08:55 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 10/27/2017 1:46 PM, ben via cctech wrote: >> On 10/27/2017 9:27 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: >> >> >> With some FPGA venders you could get a TTL library components, >> so you could input older designs. You may have to dig around for them >> because that is not a NEW selling feature any more. Also logic >> cells don't have asynchronous set and clear anymore. >> >> Ben. >> > I suppose, though writing a little HDL to provide the function of a TTL > gate isn't very hard. Xilinx ise package provides a library of hundreds of 74xx TTL parts in schematic form, with VHDL code to provide the same functionality. So, you can make up a schematic with 74xx TTL parts, and then it instantiates the VHDL behavioral description of the part. One could easily extract the VHDL from their library. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Oct 29 12:43:29 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 12:43:29 -0500 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> Message-ID: <59F61341.8050803@pico-systems.com> On 10/29/2017 07:42 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Oct 28, 2017, at 10:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech wrote: >> >> IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in 1964. >> They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on a >> computer to simulate a different computer. > That's certainly a successful early commercial implementation of emulation, done using a particular implementation approach. At least for some of the emulator features -- I believe you're talking about the 1401 emulator. IBM didn't use that all the time; the emulator feature in the 360 model 44, to emlulate the missing instructions, uses standard 360 code. Except for certain machines (360/44, 360/91-95 series, model 195) all other 360's were also emulated by microcode. there really was no difference in running 360 code or 1401 code on a 360 system, they were both done by microcode emulation. The 360/44 had no control store, so any emulation/simulation had to be done by a program written in 360 instructions. The 360/44 was a hardwired 360. Note that while the 360 was a 32-bit instruction set, the 360/30 had only an 8-bit data path, and the 360/40 had only a 16-bit data path. > It's not clear if that IBM product amounts to inventing emulation. It seems likely there are earlier ones, possibly not with that particular choice of implementation techniques. > > > Yes, there were others. Burroughs and Univac also used microcode at about the same time. I'm not sure the original DEC PDP-10 (KA-10) used microcode, but the KI-10 did. Jon From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 13:14:02 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 14:14:02 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <51e40982-ee9a-ef2b-c909-34e16e9caba0@gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom sparks" To: "Mike Stein" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 1:39 PM Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA > On 30/10/17 01:22, Mike Stein wrote: > >> Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers for the very reason you mention. >> >> m > I did look at M100 and clones, but I ruled them out, as could not use > them without extra hardware to get some DOS-like filesystem ----------- The internal file system isn't an issue for most people; the max ~30KB RAM disk (and file) size can be a limiting factor, but like many similar units you transfer files in and out via built-in utilities and an RS232 cable or $10.00 bluetooth dongle to whatever file system is at the other end including Android and the other main OSs. But as you mentioned, if you otherwise like the unit and can live with an 8x40 (albeit large and very legible) screen, there are various modern expansion options available, including CP/M emulation (under active development). What makes it still a popular unit are the character size and legibility, the excellent keyboard and the long 4xAA cell battery life; the otherwise identical T102 is a thinner and lighter version. m ------------- >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "tom sparks via cctalk" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 6:05 AM >> Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA >> >> >>> >>> On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>>> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes >>>>>> when I >>>>>> am away from my computer >>>> Hi Tom. >>>> >>>> Welcome to 1997. :-) >>>> >>>> >>>>>> the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion >>>>>> 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good >>>>>> options, >>>>>> but i read about the hinge/screen issues >>>>>> >>>>>> I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting >>>>>> accessories, >>>>>> but it has more things to break >>>>>> >>>>>> but I am wounding about other options? >>>>> "Wondering"? :-) >>>> >>>> Tom - Here's the dilemma. The pocket-sized DOS computers (HP-200, >>>> Atari Portfolio, etc.) are too small for their keyboards to be useful. >>>> The larger ones (all the Windows CE stuff that Liam mentioned, along >>>> with the awesome Psion Series 7/Psion Netbook) have good keyboards and >>>> screens, but they're fragile and kind of exotic for modern purposes. >>>> >>>> For me, the solution is modern produts. I use a high-end Android >>>> smartphone and a low-end Chromebook. Either one is excellent when I >>>> need a quick/simple note-taking device. With the phone I use the >>>> "Google Keep" app for quite notes/lists. With the Chromebook I use an >>>> offline app just called "Text" because it's extremely fast and has >>>> good options. >>> I want something that has anti-procrastinate features (no internet, no >>> videos, no mp3s, etc), >>> long battery life (40+ hours), >>> easy replaceable batteries >>> >>> PS: I am adding it to my "off-line" gobag also > From lars at nocrew.org Sun Oct 29 13:22:50 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 18:22:50 +0000 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <59F61341.8050803@pico-systems.com> (Jon Elson via cctalk's message of "Sun, 29 Oct 2017 12:43:29 -0500") References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> <59F61341.8050803@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7w1sll4xvp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Jon Elson wrote: > I'm not sure the original DEC PDP-10 (KA-10) used microcode, but the > KI-10 did. As far as I understand, the PDP-6 (type 166), KA10, and KI10 were hardwired. KL10 and KS10 were microcoded. The Foonly F1 preceeded and influenced the KL10 design. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 29 13:27:10 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 14:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? Message-ID: <20171029182710.4706518C0DC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > I'm not sure the original DEC PDP-10 (KA-10) used microcode No, it didn't; in part because it pre-dated fast, cheap ROMs (the development of which was a considerable task in the /360 project - the wonderful "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems" covers this is some detail). The KA10 is built out of FLIP CHIPs which carried individual transistors. Another fun KA10 fact: it used 'hardware subroutines' - i.e. a clock pulse would get to a certain point, and get conditionally diverted through some other circuitry, later to come back and continue where it left off. Whee! Noel From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 13:41:35 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:41:35 +0100 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <1cd6e35e-dfe2-6de1-0015-f9117499cc31@gmail.com> References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <1cd6e35e-dfe2-6de1-0015-f9117499cc31@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 29 October 2017 at 16:53, Lawrence Woodman via cctalk wrote: > > I was also thinking of something a little bit bigger, such as the M100. The > Cambridge Z88 is an excellent machine and they are still being sold new in > box. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Z88 A fair point. I have one. I must send it off to Rakewell and get it upgraded and maxed out. I think they can take 512 kB of RAM now, and there are Flash media with a meg on. http://www.rakewell.com/z88/z88.shtml The OS, OZ, is still in development, remarkably. https://sourceforge.net/p/z88/news/2016/12/cambridge-z88-rom-v47-released/ The big snag is still that it's relatively hard to get files /off/ the things and into a modern computer. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Oct 29 13:44:11 2017 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 12:44:11 -0600 Subject: VR150 Message-ID: <9ea465e8-2da5-620b-84e4-f4d24764daf6@e-bbes.com> Anybody looking for one? Free for pickup, 80433 colorado From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 29 13:51:17 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 11:51:17 -0700 Subject: VR150 In-Reply-To: <9ea465e8-2da5-620b-84e4-f4d24764daf6@e-bbes.com> References: <9ea465e8-2da5-620b-84e4-f4d24764daf6@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 10/29/2017 11:44 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Anybody looking for one? > Free for pickup, 80433 colorado That's a 150VDC (octal base) voltage regulator tube? --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 13:51:55 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 18:51:55 -0000 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00dc01d350e6$fe3e6b00$fabb4100$@gmail.com> Folks, Well I have now found one of Crispin Rope and Mark Priestly's papers on ENIAC http://eniacinaction.com/docs/AddressableAccumulators.pdf It says "ENIAC's original control method was modified in 1948, after which point its wires and switches were left mostly untouched while it ran only a single (but slowly evolving) program: a microcoded interpreter for a virtual von Neumann architecture machine." And "ENIAC's application programs were written as a series of two digit instruction codes for this virtual machine and loaded into its read-only function table memory by turning knobs to set digits." I would therefore argue that "emulation" is as old as computing itself... Dave Wade G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Wade [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com] > Sent: 29 October 2017 15:54 > To: 'Paul Koning' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > > Koning via cctalk > > Sent: 29 October 2017 12:42 > > To: Eric Smith ; General Discussion: On-Topic > > Posts > > Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 2017, at 10:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech > > > wrote: > > > > > > IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in > > 1964. > > > They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode > > > on a computer to simulate a different computer. > > > > I am not sure they invented computer emulation. I think that the concept > Emulation/Simulation is as old as, or perhaps even older than computing. > Whilst it was a pure concept Alan Turing's "Universal Turing Machine" was a > Turing machine that could emulate or simulate the behaviour of any arbitrary > Turing machine... > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Turing_machine > > .. and somewhat later when ENIAC was re-wired to execute programs stored > in the function switchs, this was a partial simulation/emulation of EDSAC > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC#Improvements > > well that's what Crispin Rope asserts, but his book is still copyright and I can't > find any reference to this on the net,, > > > > That's certainly a successful early commercial implementation of > emulation, > > done using a particular implementation approach. At least for some of > > the emulator features -- I believe you're talking about the 1401 emulator. > IBM > > didn't use that all the time; the emulator feature in the 360 model > > 44, to emlulate the missing instructions, uses standard 360 code. > > > > It's not clear if that IBM product amounts to inventing emulation. It > seems > > likely there are earlier ones, possibly not with that particular > > choice of implementation techniques. > > > > > > > Anything you run on your x86 (or ARM, MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, etc) does > > > not meet that definition, and is a simulator, since those processors > > > have only general-purpose hardware and microcode. > > > > > > Lots of people have other definitions of "emulator" which they've > > > just pulled out of their a**, but since the System/360 architects > > > invented it, I see no good reason to prefer anyone else's definition. > > > > "emulation" is just a standard English word. I don't see a good > > reason to > limit > > its application here to a specific intepretation given to it in a > particular IBM > > product. It's not as if IBM's terminology is necessarily the > > predominant > one > > in IT (consider "data set"). And in particular, as was pointed out > before, > > "emulator" has a quite specific (and different) meaning in the 1980s > through > > 2000 or so in microprocessor development hardware. > > > > paul > Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 29 14:12:48 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:12:48 -0000 Subject: VR150 In-Reply-To: References: <9ea465e8-2da5-620b-84e4-f4d24764daf6@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <006501d350e9$e905a660$bb10f320$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > via cctalk > Sent: 29 October 2017 18:51 > To: emanuel stiebler via cctalk > Subject: Re: VR150 > > On 10/29/2017 11:44 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > Anybody looking for one? > > Free for pickup, 80433 colorado > > That's a 150VDC (octal base) voltage regulator tube? > I suspect it is a DEC monochrome monitor. Regards Rob From useddec at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 14:19:03 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 14:19:03 -0500 Subject: VR150 In-Reply-To: <9ea465e8-2da5-620b-84e4-f4d24764daf6@e-bbes.com> References: <9ea465e8-2da5-620b-84e4-f4d24764daf6@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: Can I pay for shipping? On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 1:44 PM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Anybody looking for one? > Free for pickup, 80433 colorado > From rtomek at ceti.pl Sun Oct 29 15:08:34 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 21:08:34 +0100 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171029200833.GA5088@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 08:03:31PM +1000, tom sparks via cctalk wrote: > I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes > when I am away from my computer > > the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and > [Psion 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like > good options, > but i read about the hinge/screen issues > > I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting > accessories, > but it has more things to break > > but I am wounding about other options? I was looking down that road and recognised what was there at the end of it, and decided I want something else. The way I understand it is, basically, those are proprietary unmaintanaible units - designed for "sell and replace when broken", maybe not as much as modern designs, but still. Getting old rather fast. Not much options to have one's own OS on it. Not much options to have any additional software on it - old websites died off, people sometimes followed, sometimes went on or retired. Hence, not much options to ask questions when I get stuck. No manuals, AFAICS. Surface mounted electronics have not encouraged me either - albeit I can see increasing number of DIY folks who can solder this in and out. As of additional suggestions, some people sweared by their Palm Pilots and later Palms. But it boils down to buying used hw, no guarantee, and taking it with you, jumping, shagging, pressing as you go. I would be afraid of it dying anytime. It might last next twenty years, but this cannot be counted on. Thus if I developed habit to depend on it, I would have to keep alternative habit ready to depend on, too. And if so, going straight for alternative habit would seem much more rational, wouldn't it? Thus I choose the alternative. Positives: - no moving parts - keeps working on zero volts with no problem - no proprietary unrepairable circuits - no worry that rohs-no-lead solder breaks - no manual required - repairs can be done anywhere, cheaply - expansion can be done anywhere, cheaply, as long as there is stationery nearby - mods can be done, and require only very few manual skills ... and more... I realize my advice is a bit orthogonal to the letter and spirit of this group, but when I choose something, I try to be serious about it. So either the above way, or I would have to buy few more replacements and serve as my own repair shop (time sink alert! money sink alert!), but without manuals and fearing that there might be a proprietary connector broken, which can be bought and transferred from a country ten thousands km away (provided I can name it properly, so it could be found), which might be ok if I made more shopping, but for just one plastic part is rather excessive, which sends me back to my selected alternative. In case you have not guessed yet: https://www.pinterest.com/explore/creative-journal/ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/454230312408028784/ https://www.pinterest.com/explore/organisation-ideas-planners/ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/301319031309050764/ https://www.pinterest.com/explore/bullet-journal/ https://www.pinterest.com/explore/sketch-journal/ If you wonder, yes, I have the paper notebook, two even (but I think I would be joining them in a future - scissors, glue and more paper). Not as creative as the ones on pinterest (some of those are probably more "show" than "practical"), but I am slowly inventing my own way of doing it. Preying on the web to see how other people do this, from time to time. HTH -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 15:14:35 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 20:14:35 +0000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <20171029200833.GA5088@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20171029200833.GA5088@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > - no moving parts > - keeps working on zero volts with no problem > - no proprietary unrepairable circuits > - no worry that rohs-no-lead solder breaks > - no manual required > - repairs can be done anywhere, cheaply > - expansion can be done anywhere, cheaply, as long as there is > stationery nearby > - mods can be done, and require only very few manual skills > ... and more... Doesn't randomly crash. Doesn't get viruses Doesn't have licence agreements [...] > In case you have not guessed yet: [...] > If you wonder, yes, I have the paper notebook, two even (but I think I Ah... A Paper Aided Design system, also known as a PAD (of paper). I use one all the time... -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 15:23:39 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 20:23:39 +0000 Subject: VR150 In-Reply-To: References: <9ea465e8-2da5-620b-84e4-f4d24764daf6@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/29/2017 11:44 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> Anybody looking for one? >> Free for pickup, 80433 colorado > > That's a 150VDC (octal base) voltage regulator tube? That was my first thought too (the good old OD3....) I had hoped there was a UK RAF valve with that number (VR meaning 'Valve, Receiving') but alas there doesn't seem to have been one. -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 15:43:36 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 20:43:36 -0000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <20171029200833.GA5088@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <010b01d350f6$98e6b630$cab42290$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > via cctalk > Sent: 29 October 2017 20:15 > To: Tomasz Rola ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Cc: tom sparks > Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk > wrote: > > > - no moving parts > > - keeps working on zero volts with no problem > > - no proprietary unrepairable circuits > > - no worry that rohs-no-lead solder breaks > > - no manual required > > - repairs can be done anywhere, cheaply > > - expansion can be done anywhere, cheaply, as long as there is > > stationery nearby > > - mods can be done, and require only very few manual skills ... and > > more... > > Doesn't randomly crash. > Doesn't get viruses > Doesn't have licence agreements These devices are not without problems... If I use a Pen the ink leaks all over my shirt, I switched to a clutch pencil and when I dropped it all the leads broke... .. the pad has limited capacity, and like an iPad is very susceptible to fluid damage and having little monetary value I have been known to leave it on the train/bus/plain and when I do I can't remotely erase the critical data on it... > > [...] > > > In case you have not guessed yet: > > [...] > > > If you wonder, yes, I have the paper notebook, two even (but I think I > > Ah... A Paper Aided Design system, also known as a PAD (of paper). > Or a BookBook... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOXQo7nURs0 > I use one all the time... > > -tony Dave From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Oct 29 12:37:32 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 12:37:32 -0500 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> Message-ID: <59F611DC.4050605@pico-systems.com> On 10/28/2017 09:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech wrote: > IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in 1964. > They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on a > computer to simulate a different computer. Maurice V. Wilkes wrote a paper in 1951 defining microprogramming. IBM was not the first company to build machines using the technique. They did make microcode mainstream technology with the 360, however. Jon From tomasparks.ts at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 12:39:41 2017 From: tomasparks.ts at gmail.com (tom sparks) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 03:39:41 +1000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> Message-ID: <51e40982-ee9a-ef2b-c909-34e16e9caba0@gmail.com> On 30/10/17 01:22, Mike Stein wrote: > Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers for the very reason you mention. > > m I did look at M100 and clones, but I ruled them out, as could not use them without extra hardware to get some DOS-like filesystem > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tom sparks via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 6:05 AM > Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA > > >> >> On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes >>>>> when I >>>>> am away from my computer >>> Hi Tom. >>> >>> Welcome to 1997. :-) >>> >>> >>>>> the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion >>>>> 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good >>>>> options, >>>>> but i read about the hinge/screen issues >>>>> >>>>> I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting >>>>> accessories, >>>>> but it has more things to break >>>>> >>>>> but I am wounding about other options? >>>> "Wondering"? :-) >>> >>> Tom - Here's the dilemma. The pocket-sized DOS computers (HP-200, >>> Atari Portfolio, etc.) are too small for their keyboards to be useful. >>> The larger ones (all the Windows CE stuff that Liam mentioned, along >>> with the awesome Psion Series 7/Psion Netbook) have good keyboards and >>> screens, but they're fragile and kind of exotic for modern purposes. >>> >>> For me, the solution is modern produts. I use a high-end Android >>> smartphone and a low-end Chromebook. Either one is excellent when I >>> need a quick/simple note-taking device. With the phone I use the >>> "Google Keep" app for quite notes/lists. With the Chromebook I use an >>> offline app just called "Text" because it's extremely fast and has >>> good options. >> I want something that has anti-procrastinate features (no internet, no >> videos, no mp3s, etc), >> long battery life (40+ hours), >> easy replaceable batteries >> >> PS: I am adding it to my "off-line" gobag also From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Oct 29 13:40:03 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 11:40:03 -0700 Subject: Look to get a copy of a Multi-Tech FM300 Modem manual Message-ID: I've acquired a Multi-Tech FM300 acoustic modem and even though I could figure out the pin-outs and switch settings, it would be great if I could get a copy of the original manual. Goal is to add it to a Teletype 33 or 35 and a Bell System 500 desk set. -pete From tomasparks.ts at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 15:38:23 2017 From: tomasparks.ts at gmail.com (tom sparks) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 06:38:23 +1000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <51e40982-ee9a-ef2b-c909-34e16e9caba0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> On 30/10/17 04:14, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tom sparks" > To: "Mike Stein" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 1:39 PM > Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA > > >> On 30/10/17 01:22, Mike Stein wrote: >> >>> Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers for the very reason you mention. >>> >>> m >> I did look at M100 and clones, but I ruled them out, as could not use >> them without extra hardware to get some DOS-like filesystem > ----------- > > The internal file system isn't an issue for most people; the max ~30KB RAM disk (and file) size can be a limiting factor, 30KB is a limiting factor me, as I dont know how many text files i want to store > but like many similar units you transfer files in and out via built-in utilities and an RS232 cable or $10.00 bluetooth dongle to whatever file system is at the other end including Android and the other main OSs. I dont want to bring another computing device with me to act as storage, I want download all the data before I go and upload it when I return or use a "dial-up" connection[^1] > > But as you mentioned, if you otherwise like the unit and can live with an 8x40 (albeit large and very legible) screen, there are various modern expansion options available, including CP/M emulation (under active development). > > What makes it still a popular unit are the character size and legibility, the excellent keyboard and the long 4xAA cell battery life; the otherwise identical T102 is a thinner and lighter version. the final nail in the coffin for m100 is the size of my go bag ( 23 * 16 * 1.5cm) > m > ------------- > [^1]: I am really unsure if I want to go down the TCP/IP path From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 16:38:18 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:38:18 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <51e40982-ee9a-ef2b-c909-34e16e9caba0@gmail.com> <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> Message-ID: You might check out the Gateway HandBook series -- there's a 286 and 486 version. I've got the 486 version, it'll run DOS/Win31/Win95 and Linux/*BSD distros that support the 486. Suspend/resume is instant, there's an internal battery to carry you through battery pack hot swaps, and you can gut the old pack and restuff with modern cells. I've been meaning to build a USB based pack replacement for mine, using one or two 18650 cells, a charge controller, and a load share switch IC. Gets around the problem of needing the Gateway charger, which mine didn't come with :) I've got one of the above-mentioned GPD Pocket computers, it's fully modern and comes with Windows 10 or Ubuntu. I've got mine running Slackware, but I haven't had much time to mess around with it in the past few months. In between the Handbook and the GPD Pocket, there's the Toshiba Libretto line. There were a number of models, I've only ever had Libretto 110CT machines, which are 233 MHz Pentium-MMX with up to 64 MB RAM. These run up to Windows 2000 just fine, and do fine with a modernish CLI Linux/*BSD (though some distros are starting to drop i586, and I've heard some distros will be dropping 32-bit Intel altogether soon). Keyboard isn't as good as the Handbook, but it's much better than the DOS palmtops I've used. Thanks, Jonathan On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 4:38 PM, tom sparks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 30/10/17 04:14, Mike Stein wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "tom sparks" >> To: "Mike Stein" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic >> and Off-Topic Posts" >> Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 1:39 PM >> Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA >> >> >> On 30/10/17 01:22, Mike Stein wrote: >>> >>> Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some >>>> writers for the very reason you mention. >>>> >>>> m >>>> >>> I did look at M100 and clones, but I ruled them out, as could not use >>> them without extra hardware to get some DOS-like filesystem >>> >> ----------- >> >> The internal file system isn't an issue for most people; the max ~30KB >> RAM disk (and file) size can be a limiting factor, >> > 30KB is a limiting factor me, as I dont know how many text files i want to > store > > but like many similar units you transfer files in and out via built-in >> utilities and an RS232 cable or $10.00 bluetooth dongle to whatever file >> system is at the other end including Android and the other main OSs. >> > I dont want to bring another computing device with me to act as storage, > I want download all the data before I go and upload it when I return or > use a "dial-up" connection[^1] > >> >> But as you mentioned, if you otherwise like the unit and can live with an >> 8x40 (albeit large and very legible) screen, there are various modern >> expansion options available, including CP/M emulation (under active >> development). >> >> What makes it still a popular unit are the character size and legibility, >> the excellent keyboard and the long 4xAA cell battery life; the otherwise >> identical T102 is a thinner and lighter version. >> > the final nail in the coffin for m100 is the size of my go bag ( 23 * 16 * > 1.5cm) > > m >> ------------- >> >> [^1]: I am really unsure if I want to go down the TCP/IP path > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Oct 29 16:43:46 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:43:46 -0400 Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard Message-ID: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> The Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard, the tech pioneers who in 1938 formed an electronics company in a Palo Alto garage with $538 in cash. More than 100 boxes of the two men?s writings, correspondence, speeches and other items were contained in one of two modular buildings that burned to the ground at the Fountaingrove headquarters of Keysight Technologies. Keysight, the world?s largest electronics measurement company, traces its roots to HP and acquired the archives in 2014 when its business was split from Agilent Technologies ? itself an HP spinoff. http://bit.ly/2yd6Z2G (My added note) And.... this is why I continue to stress multiple caches of copies/scans of historical material... and sad... as in this case here is someone that could have footed the bill and not missed the money to do it. Ed# Archivist for SMECC From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 16:16:46 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:16:46 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <51e40982-ee9a-ef2b-c909-34e16e9caba0@gmail.com> <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53472C8500444A91B4FC2C4DF9803B76@310e2> > the final nail in the coffin for m100 is the size of my go bag ( 23 * 16 * 1.5cm) -- Definitely a deal breaker ;-) But yes, without a memory expansion of some sort the limited RAM size can be frustrating; if you don't mind smaller text sizes or shorter battery life then there are many alternatives, both vintage and modern. m ----- Original Message ----- From: tom sparks To: Mike Stein ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA On 30/10/17 04:14, Mike Stein wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom sparks" To: "Mike Stein" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 1:39 PM Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA On 30/10/17 01:22, Mike Stein wrote: Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers for the very reason you mention. m I did look at M100 and clones, but I ruled them out, as could not use them without extra hardware to get some DOS-like filesystem ----------- The internal file system isn't an issue for most people; the max ~30KB RAM disk (and file) size can be a limiting factor,30KB is a limiting factor me, as I dont know how many text files i want to store but like many similar units you transfer files in and out via built-in utilities and an RS232 cable or $10.00 bluetooth dongle to whatever file system is at the other end including Android and the other main OSs.I dont want to bring another computing device with me to act as storage, I want download all the data before I go and upload it when I return or use a "dial-up" connection[^1] But as you mentioned, if you otherwise like the unit and can live with an 8x40 (albeit large and very legible) screen, there are various modern expansion options available, including CP/M emulation (under active development). What makes it still a popular unit are the character size and legibility, the excellent keyboard and the long 4xAA cell battery life; the otherwise identical T102 is a thinner and lighter version. the final nail in the coffin for m100 is the size of my go bag ( 23 * 16 * 1.5cm) m ------------- [^1]: I am really unsure if I want to go down the TCP/IP path From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 16:49:03 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:49:03 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <1cd6e35e-dfe2-6de1-0015-f9117499cc31@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9E827E97026648519E8114DCA32758DC@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Woodman via cctalk" To: Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 11:53 AM Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA > > > On 29/10/17 15:22, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >> Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers for the very reason you mention. >> >> m >> >> On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>>> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes >>>>>> when I >>>>>> am away from my computer >>>> > > I was also thinking of something a little bit bigger, such as the M100. > The Cambridge Z88 is an excellent machine and they are still being sold > new in box. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Z88 > > Lorry -------- Well, as I said if you don't mind smaller text and buying a slightly larger bag there are quite a few pretty nice word processors out there, and most of them have either RS232, USB or wireless transfer capability built in. If you're lucky you might even find one with its own bag ;-) For example there's the NTS Dream Writer series; e.g.: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NTS-Computer-DreamWriter-T400-IR-Word-Processor-TESTED-/380218171277 or the Alphasmarts; e.g.: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lot-2-AlphaSmart-Dana-Portable-Word-Processor/222696441392?hash=item33d9be0630:g:OggAAOSwH09ZKavH (No connection to seller) m From trash80 at internode.on.net Sun Oct 29 17:31:11 2017 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 09:31:11 +1100 Subject: Picked up tandy 1000 TX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c801d35105$9fcd13e0$df673ba0$@internode.on.net> Where are you located Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of devin davison via cctalk Sent: Sunday, 29 October 2017 10:37 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Picked up tandy 1000 TX I picked up a tandy 1000 TX with a color CM 11 monitor. Both are in the original boxes with keyboard,monitor and the printer cable. It powers on but i can not seem to get it to boot from the floppy drive. Ive tried writing 720K boot disks from my windows computer but it is still not booting. Some better pictures to follow soon. I do not particularly need such a machine, and am open to trade or offers. If no one wants it perhaps it can be put to use as a BBS or something packet radio related over here. Also, the boxes both had us goverment stickers on them, kinda intersting. https://s20.postimg.org/fr7iox7kt/image3.jpg --Devin From rtomek at ceti.pl Sun Oct 29 17:49:55 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 23:49:55 +0100 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <010b01d350f6$98e6b630$cab42290$@gmail.com> References: <20171029200833.GA5088@tau1.ceti.pl> <010b01d350f6$98e6b630$cab42290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20171029224955.GB5088@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 08:43:36PM -0000, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > via cctalk [...] > > > > Doesn't randomly crash. > > Doesn't get viruses > > Doesn't have licence agreements Also: no ransomware. > These devices are not without problems... > > If I use a Pen the ink leaks all over my shirt, > I switched to a clutch pencil and when I dropped it all the leads broke... I have been using ballpen a lot. Problem was, when original ink holder ran out, the replacements I could buy were of mediocore quality. So I optimised and now go with disposables - like Stabilo. Also, Bic, if I have chance. Or anything from that shelve, I am not purist. As of ink leaks, perhaps holding pen in some hardened case would do? Maybe together with notepad? > .. the pad has limited capacity, and like an iPad is very > susceptible to fluid damage and having little monetary value I have > been known to leave it on the train/bus/plain and when I do I can't > remotely erase the critical data on it... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Undeciphered_historical_codes_and_ciphers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptonomicon#Pontifex_Cipher Those too have limitations, but should be above the height of average pickpocket/passerby. One of the limitations is, one requires quite a bit of practice to do them in memory. OTOH, when applied to short sequences of words, should be quite strong, from what I have read. When memorizing sequence of digits on paper, I could write a sentence of words of proper length, or have many words of diffent length all over the page and memorize the place of those which I need (just guessing, will have to try it one day). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 18:05:21 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 23:05:21 +0000 Subject: HEXTIr - TI HexBus SD Drive In-Reply-To: <93825bed-c437-797a-afad-baff08dc0492@jbrain.com> References: <93825bed-c437-797a-afad-baff08dc0492@jbrain.com> Message-ID: > On 29 Oct 2017, at 17:14, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > In case anyone has a fondness for niche tech... > > At VCF-SE this year, the TI folks had a great exhibit, and perusing it I saw an unfamiliar machine, the TI CC-40 (Compact Computer-40). While I was investigating, the exhibitor (MillipedeMan aka Mark), told me the machines were frustrating to use, as TI only supported one communications method on the unit, a proprietary protocol called HexBus, and produced very low quantities of very few peripherals that work on the bus. Most frustratingly, they never producing a mass storage device in any appreciable quantity, and there was no other way to save programs written on the unit. > > Mark did note there was an eBay seller liquidating units, so I bought a 2 unit combo from eBay before I left the show. > > Sadly, Summer happened, but I was finally able to get to the unit, and started working on an SD-based mass storage device for the unit. It was an interesting journey to learn a new protocol. > > The (development in progress) result is HEX-TI-r, the HexBus SD drive: > > GitHub source code is here: https://github.com/go4retro/HEXTIr > > Video of unit operating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX5ahVCRdvM > > I don't have a project page up yet, but will work on that. Wow! Many years ago I bought a CC-40 on ebay for pennies, boxed NOS. I forgot about it for over a decade and found it again recently looking for other things, this could be an excuse to get it out and see if it still works :) Cheers, ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 18:22:36 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:22:36 -0400 Subject: Picked up tandy 1000 TX In-Reply-To: <00c801d35105$9fcd13e0$df673ba0$@internode.on.net> References: <00c801d35105$9fcd13e0$df673ba0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: Located in Vero Beach Florida. I was able to boot an old toshiba utility disk i had laying around that is 720K. I have tried to make a couple of dos boot disks but have not had any luck getting it booted. it appears to be functional, but i need to get a proper boot disk made before i send it off. Pictures to follow soon. I am taking the machine apart to take inventory and find out the model numbers on the drives. --devin On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Kevin Parker wrote: > Where are you located > > Kevin Parker > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of devin davison via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, 29 October 2017 10:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Picked up tandy 1000 TX > > I picked up a tandy 1000 TX with a color CM 11 monitor. Both are in the original boxes with keyboard,monitor and the printer cable. It powers on but i can not seem to get it to boot from the floppy drive. > Ive tried writing 720K boot disks from my windows computer but it is still not booting. Some better pictures to follow soon. > > I do not particularly need such a machine, and am open to trade or offers. If no one wants it perhaps it can be put to use as a BBS or something packet radio related over here. Also, the boxes both had us goverment stickers on them, kinda intersting. > > https://s20.postimg.org/fr7iox7kt/image3.jpg > > --Devin > From barythrin at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 18:41:32 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 18:41:32 -0500 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA Message-ID: <59f66730.8d57ca0a.2dc48.1d86@mx.google.com> I'll add a few more problem specs than answers but the down side of a lot of devices is lack of backlit screen so working in a dark space can be a problem, and I'd be quite interested to see real battery life reviews.? ?So many devices that can work only last a few hours on battery. Could be age issues but that's what I've accepted as a reason not to collect too many handheld devices. Proprietary batteries and most are dead. Do you want keyboard or is palm like writing acceptable? On the bright side, despite battery age palms are easy to find and relatively cheap. Most are at goodwill because of obsolescence not because theyre broken.? I find them all the time for $10. null From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 18:48:16 2017 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 10:48:16 +1100 Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard In-Reply-To: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> References: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> Message-ID: <7B1CAEA8-FEAB-484A-953D-C645C055871B@gmail.com> Completely agree. I?m in the process of scanning additional product manuals that haven?t made it into the HP Computer Museum?s site yet. Any of us with websites could have some reason to stop doing this good work at any time so duplicated info across a few sites is an important risk reduction item! David Collins HP Computer Museum > On 30 Oct 2017, at 8:43 am, Ed via cctalk wrote: > > > The Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and > David Packard, the tech pioneers who in 1938 formed an electronics company in a > Palo Alto garage with $538 in cash. > More than 100 boxes of the two men?s writings, correspondence, speeches > and other items were contained in one of two modular buildings that burned to > the ground at the Fountaingrove headquarters of Keysight Technologies. > Keysight, the world?s largest electronics measurement company, traces its > roots to HP and acquired the archives in 2014 when its business was split from > Agilent Technologies ? itself an HP spinoff. > > http://bit.ly/2yd6Z2G > (My added note) And.... this is why I continue to stress multiple > caches of copies/scans of historical material... and sad... as in this case > here is someone that could have footed the bill and not missed the money to > do it. > Ed# Archivist for SMECC From trash80 at internode.on.net Sun Oct 29 18:59:29 2017 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 10:59:29 +1100 Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard In-Reply-To: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> References: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> Message-ID: <00f301d35111$f5e0f150$e1a2d3f0$@internode.on.net> Very sad when I hear stories like this and I'm not precluding the people who were directly affected by this - I'm located in Australia and while bushfires are a fact of life here, they're still devastating. Just going to toss an idea out there - have no idea how this might work but thought I'd toss it out there. It seems with the internet that crowd-sourcing is way of resourcing things. Maybe we (that's us on this list) need to apply this concept to the scanning and archiving and retention of any paper based repositories that still exist. I'll call it crowd-scanning for the time being. Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ed via cctalk Sent: Monday, 30 October 2017 08:44 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard The Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard, the tech pioneers who in 1938 formed an electronics company in a Palo Alto garage with $538 in cash. More than 100 boxes of the two men?s writings, correspondence, speeches and other items were contained in one of two modular buildings that burned to the ground at the Fountaingrove headquarters of Keysight Technologies. Keysight, the world?s largest electronics measurement company, traces its roots to HP and acquired the archives in 2014 when its business was split from Agilent Technologies ? itself an HP spinoff. http://bit.ly/2yd6Z2G (My added note) And.... this is why I continue to stress multiple caches of copies/scans of historical material... and sad... as in this case here is someone that could have footed the bill and not missed the money to do it. Ed# Archivist for SMECC From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 29 19:08:00 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 20:08:00 -0400 Subject: Post scanned documents to multiple sites - Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard In-Reply-To: <7B1CAEA8-FEAB-484A-953D-C645C055871B@gmail.com> References: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> <7B1CAEA8-FEAB-484A-953D-C645C055871B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a72df63-a700-07e7-f35f-5e3688c75c5f@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-10-29 7:48 PM, David Collins via cctalk wrote: > Completely agree. I?m in the process of scanning additional product manuals that haven?t made it into the HP Computer Museum?s site yet. > > Any of us with websites could have some reason to stop doing this good work at any time so duplicated info across a few sites is an important risk reduction item! +100 However I'm only aware of one site that currently accepts scanned submissions: Internet Archive. If there are any others please mention. --Toby > > David Collins > HP Computer Museum > >> On 30 Oct 2017, at 8:43 am, Ed via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> The Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and >> David Packard, the tech pioneers who in 1938 formed an electronics company in a >> Palo Alto garage with $538 in cash. >> More than 100 boxes of the two men?s writings, correspondence, speeches >> and other items were contained in one of two modular buildings that burned to >> the ground at the Fountaingrove headquarters of Keysight Technologies. >> Keysight, the world?s largest electronics measurement company, traces its >> roots to HP and acquired the archives in 2014 when its business was split from >> Agilent Technologies ? itself an HP spinoff. >> >> http://bit.ly/2yd6Z2G >> (My added note) And.... this is why I continue to stress multiple >> caches of copies/scans of historical material... and sad... as in this case >> here is someone that could have footed the bill and not missed the money to >> do it. >> Ed# Archivist for SMECC > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 29 19:13:45 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:13:45 -0700 Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard In-Reply-To: <00f301d35111$f5e0f150$e1a2d3f0$@internode.on.net> References: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> <00f301d35111$f5e0f150$e1a2d3f0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <9a0b4e7c-a245-e432-09d8-79b5886a9587@bitsavers.org> On 10/29/17 4:59 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > Maybe we (that's us on this list) need to apply this concept to the scanning and archiving and retention of any paper based repositories that still exist. What a brilliant idea. We could call it "bitsavers"! From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 19:20:25 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:20:25 -0700 Subject: PowerPrint 2.5.2 for the classic Mac Message-ID: <02d601d35114$e277e3a0$a767aae0$@gmail.com> Anyone in the list has a copy of PowerPrint 2.5.2 from GDT Software? It's a collection of printer drivers for the Mac for non-Apple printers that works under System 6.0.7. I am particularly looking at a driver for an HP 2225D (the serial version of the ThinkJet). It is said that GDT had a one. Marc From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Oct 29 19:25:46 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:25:46 -0500 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <59f66730.8d57ca0a.2dc48.1d86@mx.google.com> References: <59f66730.8d57ca0a.2dc48.1d86@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20171030002546.GA7345@lonesome.com> I'll be happy to give away my Palm collection to anyone who will pay shipping from Austin, TX, USA. No, they don't work :-) But there's a Palm original, Palm III, and Palm VII. (and yeah, I would, uh, kinda have to find them.) The only thing I would ask in return is if you get them going, please do a factory reset. I assume they still have my data. mcl From pete at pski.net Sun Oct 29 19:26:15 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 20:26:15 -0400 Subject: Post scanned documents to multiple sites - Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard In-Reply-To: <7a72df63-a700-07e7-f35f-5e3688c75c5f@telegraphics.com.au> References: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> <7B1CAEA8-FEAB-484A-953D-C645C055871B@gmail.com> <7a72df63-a700-07e7-f35f-5e3688c75c5f@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <60B2D7EE-5443-4396-A713-B2A90E9D2EDC@pski.net> I suggest creating a free github.com account with a public repository. This way whenever someone forks or clones the repo they get a full local copy with one command...?git clone?. Get enough people and you?ll never worry about losing the archive and it?s all for free. If github goes away everyone still has a complete copy which can be uploaded to the next great service that comes along. It?s a semi-decentralized and distributed archive. We are doing this with the Model II archive at https://github.com/pski/model2archive From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 29 19:30:23 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 20:30:23 -0400 Subject: Post scanned documents to multiple sites - Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard In-Reply-To: <60B2D7EE-5443-4396-A713-B2A90E9D2EDC@pski.net> References: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> <7B1CAEA8-FEAB-484A-953D-C645C055871B@gmail.com> <7a72df63-a700-07e7-f35f-5e3688c75c5f@telegraphics.com.au> <60B2D7EE-5443-4396-A713-B2A90E9D2EDC@pski.net> Message-ID: <40d9343e-865d-c231-e3f6-fb8c3f67ea03@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-10-29 8:26 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > I suggest creating a free github.com account with a > public repository. ?This way whenever someone forks or clones the repo > they get a full local copy with one command...?git clone?. ? > > Get enough people and you?ll never worry about losing the archive and > it?s all for free. ?If github goes away everyone still has a complete > copy which ?can be uploaded to the next great service that comes along. Only if they had the foresight both to clone it, and keep it up to date, meaning they need all the resources/space/bandwidth to do so (and then it would STILL be a private, disconnected copy; so no use to anyone ELSE). --Toby > ?It?s a semi-decentralized and distributed archive. > > We are doing this with the Model II archive > at?https://github.com/pski/model2archive From trash80 at internode.on.net Sun Oct 29 20:18:11 2017 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:18:11 +1100 Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard In-Reply-To: <9a0b4e7c-a245-e432-09d8-79b5886a9587@bitsavers.org> References: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> <00f301d35111$f5e0f150$e1a2d3f0$@internode.on.net> <9a0b4e7c-a245-e432-09d8-79b5886a9587@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <012301d3511c$f455bc70$dd013550$@internode.on.net> Sorry wasn't aware of the operational aspects of bitsavers or how stuff finds it's a way in there (although I just had a good read of it all). But having said that, it looks like this collection perished without finding its way to bitsavers so it?s not so much where its stored - it?s the act of collecting the paper and scanning it in. If I scan stuff can I add it or get it added to BitSavers - I'm not sure because there's a notice on their web site (and I'm certainly not decrying their efforts - its highly valued resource intensive work): "Due to the current several year backlog of documents to process, we are not actively soliciting additional paper or scans to add to the collection" (Not sure if I can do anything but I might send them an offer of help.) Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Monday, 30 October 2017 11:14 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard On 10/29/17 4:59 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > Maybe we (that's us on this list) need to apply this concept to the scanning and archiving and retention of any paper based repositories that still exist. What a brilliant idea. We could call it "bitsavers"! From classiccmp at crash.com Sun Oct 29 21:41:56 2017 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:41:56 -0700 Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard In-Reply-To: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> References: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> Message-ID: <496e1a6c-1b91-152e-c624-4ec37142de2e@crash.com> General comment to several earlier replies re: Bitsavers-type efforts. The tragedy here is not that some copies of uncommon but otherwise extant product documentation were lost. From the description, there were a large number of unique, individual documents created by significant historical figures. Fair bet that many of these didn't exist anywhere else. Certainly not if it included drafts of speeches and correspondence, as well as the final copy, etc. A better question (not that it does any good to ask it now) is why this stuff wasn't in the hands of university conservators or similar. I love bitsavers and warchive.org, but this is a level beyond what they typically focus on. (And to be sure, CHM would have at least kept such artifacts safe even if they couldn't do anything with them for a few years/decades.) Sigh. And I don't really mean to criticize anybody at Keysight, humans are generally bad at recognizing and planning for this kind of contingency - and I'm probably worst than most... --S. From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Oct 29 22:19:03 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 23:19:03 -0400 Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard In-Reply-To: <496e1a6c-1b91-152e-c624-4ec37142de2e@crash.com> References: <496e1a6c-1b91-152e-c624-4ec37142de2e@crash.com> Message-ID: <15f6b4a22cd-c09-36610@webjas-vae203.srv.aolmail.net> Karen Lewis felt Stanford was the place they should go... ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, October 29, 2017 Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: General comment to several earlier replies re: Bitsavers-type efforts. The tragedy here is not that some copies of uncommon but otherwise extant product documentation were lost. From the description, there were a large number of unique, individual documents created by significant historical figures. Fair bet that many of these didn't exist anywhere else. Certainly not if it included drafts of speeches and correspondence, as well as the final copy, etc. A better question (not that it does any good to ask it now) is why this stuff wasn't in the hands of university conservators or similar. I love bitsavers and warchive.org, but this is a level beyond what they typically focus on. (And to be sure, CHM would have at least kept such artifacts safe even if they couldn't do anything with them for a few years/decades.) Sigh. And I don't really mean to criticize anybody at Keysight, humans are generally bad at recognizing and planning for this kind of contingency - and I'm probably worst than most... --S. From chrise at pobox.com Sun Oct 29 22:20:26 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 22:20:26 -0500 Subject: Look to get a copy of a Multi-Tech FM300 Modem manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Give me a day or two and I think I can help you out. I used to work at Multi-Tech when the FM300 was still a product. I have several along with original schematics, which are "blue prints"... I have almost as many stories about Multi-Tech as I do ETA ;-) Chris On October 29, 2017 1:40:03 PM CDT, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: >I've acquired a Multi-Tech FM300 acoustic modem and even though I could >figure out the pin-outs >and switch settings, it would be great if I could get a copy of the >original manual. > >Goal is to add it to a Teletype 33 or 35 and a Bell System 500 desk >set. > >-pete -- Chris Elmquist From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 22:40:15 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 23:40:15 -0400 Subject: Picked up job at electronic recycling center Message-ID: I recently picked up a job at an electronic recycling center. Harris is right around the corner from us, as well as a bunch of technical schools and aerospace related businesses. All of thier old stuff ends up at the shop to be resold as surplus or broken down and scrapped. There tends to be to much to process, and inside space is limited. Excess equipment is stored outside in tents, and it goes to crap quite quickly unfortunately. The humidity and rain destroys stuff outside quickly. I am uncertain of how many requests I will get, but if anyone is looking for something in particular, please send me an email and I will keep an eye out for you. The place is a goldmine, and a lot of nice older gear is going to waste because the store owners do not know what it is. Examples of stuff that comes in are old microcomputers like the c64, nice 486 like machines with good isa cards in them, TONS of HP and tectronics test equipment, ham radio gear, you name it. There is a ton of good stuff here, i am trying to find some a good home before it gets stripped out. Some of this stuff works fine, the tandy 1000 computer I picked up this weekend works flawlessly for example. Other things are in a broken or parts state, but within reach of repair. There is a lot of new gear there as well, not many machines come in with nice graphics cards in them, but tons of workstations with lots of ram and hard drives are common. We get so many servers they are broken down almost immediately unless they are particularly new or unique in some way. Lets see how busy my inbox gets, if you are in need of something, please send me an email, i can keep an eye out for it and hopefully be of service.I work on Saturdays, that is the day i will be on site to look for things. Stuff will be priced as surplus/used. Hopefully i can be of use and keep some of this stuff out of the scrap pile. --Devin From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Oct 29 23:47:41 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 00:47:41 -0400 Subject: Look to get a copy of a Multi-Tech FM300 Modem manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15f6b9b49e4-c0b-d9ee@webjas-vae019.srv.aolmail.net> Chris.. would like any doc scans too please. ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, October 29, 2017 Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: Give me a day or two and I think I can help you out. I used to work at Multi-Tech when the FM300 was still a product. I have several along with original schematics, which are "blue prints"... I have almost as many stories about Multi-Tech as I do ETA ;-) Chris On October 29, 2017 1:40:03 PM CDT, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: >I've acquired a Multi-Tech FM300 acoustic modem and even though I could >figure out the pin-outs >and switch settings, it would be great if I could get a copy of the >original manual. > >Goal is to add it to a Teletype 33 or 35 and a Bell System 500 desk >set. > >-pete -- Chris Elmquist From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 00:04:47 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 22:04:47 -0700 Subject: HPGL plotter art files References: <936977FC7A2D4496A16A057CBFA0FCD0@310e2> <5AA6C10F-2E2C-483E-9B5E-C82BFE0993B7@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <031001d3513c$9c844c80$d58ce580$@gmail.com> And I found the Columbia.plt HPGL I believe I generated using the method below. Sending directly to Mike. Marc -----Original Message----- From: CuriousMarc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 6:16 PM To: 'Mike Stein'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: HPGL plotter art files The space shuttle comes from a .dwg that was included in an version of AutoCAD, the file is named Columbia.dwg if you want to search it on Google. I can send you the original .dwg file if you want. Then you need to use AutoCAD to print out an HPGL file. I used Autodesk DWG TrueView which is free. You'll need to spin it around in 3D until you get a top view, then zoom to it. Then I printed it from TrueView using Roland DXY 880 output with the following options: A4 paper, landscape orientation, print to file, center, print extent. Out will come an HPGL file that you might want to further massage depending how early or late your plotter is, as was said by Brent. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tom sparks via cctalk Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 11:36 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: HPGL plotter art files On 16/10/17 15:07, David Collins via cctalk wrote: > Brent could you send it to curator at hpmuseum.net as well? > > Thanks! > > David Collins > >> On 16 Oct 2017, at 2:32 pm, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On 2017-Oct-15, at 4:20 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >>> Can anybody direct me to some interesting HPGL plotter files for a display at the upcoming World of Commodore show? >> >> I'm sending (in a separate, direct message with attachment) the semi-famous / once ubiquitous Space Shuttle plot from the 1980s. >> >> I received it from someone after making a similar request to the list 10 years ago. >> >> Some things to note though: this plot uses multiple colored pens and was scaled to some (largish, IIRC) size of paper. >> I was targetting a HP 9872 plotter which was too early to understand some of the more complex HPGL directives present in the SS plot, such as drawing arcs. >> I wrote a language filter/converter that will optionally scale the image, offset it relative to the plotter bed, converts certain directives e.g. arcs to a series of line-segment directives, reduces the number of pens, etc. >> >> I'll send the original SS plot, if you figure you could use the filter program, I can send it along, or a modified plot, upon request. >> inkscape has hpgl export support [Chiplotle](http://cmc.music.columbia.edu/chiplotle/) gives you a python API these is also [tsp art](http://wiki.evilmadscientist.com/TSP_art) witch can drawn on plotter tom From jseiwert07 at berkeley.columbia.edu Sun Oct 29 17:44:47 2017 From: jseiwert07 at berkeley.columbia.edu (Joe Seiwert III) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 15:44:47 -0700 Subject: Looking for Dr. Dobb's Developer Library DVD 6 Message-ID: Hello Steve, Found ur post re: a copy DDJ DVD 6. Wondering if u ever got a response. Also, I'm looking for an archive of Computer Language. If u know where one is at be greatful if u can pass along the info. -- Joe Seiwert III jseiwert07 at berkeley.columbia.edu http://www.linkedin.com/in/jseiwert From tomasparks.ts at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 18:57:11 2017 From: tomasparks.ts at gmail.com (tom sparks) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 09:57:11 +1000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <51e40982-ee9a-ef2b-c909-34e16e9caba0@gmail.com> <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 30/10/17 07:38, systems_glitch wrote: > You might check out the Gateway HandBook series -- there's a 286 and > 486 version. I've got the 486 version, it'll run DOS/Win31/Win95 and > Linux/*BSD distros that support the 486. Suspend/resume is instant, > there's an internal battery to carry you through battery pack hot > swaps, and you can gut the old pack and restuff with modern cells. > I've been meaning to build a USB based pack replacement for mine, > using one or two 18650 cells, a charge controller, and a load share > switch IC. Gets around the problem of needing the Gateway charger, > which mine didn't come with :) > > I've got one of the above-mentioned GPD Pocket computers, it's fully > modern and comes with Windows 10 or Ubuntu. I've got mine running > Slackware, but I haven't had much time to mess around with it in the > past few months. > > In between the Handbook and the GPD Pocket, there's the Toshiba > Libretto line. There were a number of models, I've only ever had > Libretto 110CT machines, which are 233 MHz Pentium-MMX with up to 64 > MB RAM. These run up to Windows 2000 just fine, and do fine with a > modernish CLI Linux/*BSD (though some distros are starting to drop > i586, and I've heard some distros will be dropping 32-bit Intel > altogether soon). Keyboard isn't as good as the Handbook, but it's > much better than the DOS palmtops I've used. > > Thanks, > Jonathan cant find the Gateway HandBook on ebay :( if wanted the GPD Pocket i could buy these or? GDP Win Toshiba Libretto size issues > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 4:38 PM, tom sparks via cctalk > > wrote: > > On 30/10/17 04:14, Mike Stein wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tom sparks" > > To: "Mike Stein" >; "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 1:39 PM > Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA > > > On 30/10/17 01:22, Mike Stein wrote: > > Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still > used by some writers for the very reason you mention. > > m > > I did look at M100 and clones, but I ruled them out, as > could not use > them without extra hardware to get some DOS-like filesystem > > ----------- > > The internal file system isn't an issue for most people; the > max ~30KB RAM disk (and file) size can be a limiting factor, > > 30KB is a limiting factor me, as I dont know how many text files i > want to store > > ? but like many similar units you transfer files in and out > via built-in utilities and an RS232 cable or $10.00 bluetooth > dongle to whatever file system is at the other end including > Android and the other main OSs. > > I dont want to bring another computing device with me to act as > storage, > I want download all the data before I go and upload it when I > return or use a "dial-up" connection[^1] > > > But as you mentioned, if you otherwise like the unit and can > live with an 8x40 (albeit large and very legible) screen, > there are various modern expansion options available, > including CP/M emulation (under active development). > > What makes it still a popular unit are the character size and > legibility, the excellent keyboard and the long 4xAA cell > battery life; the otherwise identical T102 is a thinner and > lighter version. > > the final nail in the coffin for m100 is the size of my go bag ( > 23 * 16 * 1.5cm) > > m > ------------- > > [^1]: I am really unsure if I want to go down the TCP/IP path > > From tomasparks.ts at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 20:36:43 2017 From: tomasparks.ts at gmail.com (tom sparks) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:36:43 +1000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <59f66730.8d57ca0a.2dc48.1d86@mx.google.com> References: <59f66730.8d57ca0a.2dc48.1d86@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <78f460a1-fe48-3d76-2c90-b5e3451494fa@gmail.com> On 30/10/17 09:41, Sam O'nella wrote: > I'll add a few more problem specs than answers but the down side of a > lot of devices is lack of backlit screen so working in a dark space > can be a problem, same issues with e-ink > and I'd be quite interested to see real battery life reviews. > > ?So many devices that can work only last a few hours on battery. Could > be age issues but that's what I've accepted as a reason not to collect > too many handheld devices. Proprietary batteries and most are dead. > > Do you want keyboard or is palm like writing acceptable? Do you mean thumb typing, I can learn that > On the bright side, despite battery age palms are easy to find and > relatively cheap. Most are at goodwill because of obsolescence not > because theyre broken.? I find them all the time for $10. thanks for the 2nd hand shops tip From bygg at cafax.se Mon Oct 30 07:44:23 2017 From: bygg at cafax.se (Johnny Eriksson) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 7:44:23 WET Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Oct 2017 18:22:50 +0000 Message-ID: Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Jon Elson wrote: > > I'm not sure the original DEC PDP-10 (KA-10) used microcode, but the > > KI-10 did. > > As far as I understand, the PDP-6 (type 166), KA10, and KI10 were > hardwired. KL10 and KS10 were microcoded. The Foonly F1 preceeded and > influenced the KL10 design. This is exactly correct. BTW: they still are... --Johnny From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 30 02:05:34 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 07:05:34 -0000 Subject: Picked up job at electronic recycling center In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007d01d3514d$7be6eee0$73b4cca0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of devin > davison via cctalk > Sent: 30 October 2017 03:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Picked up job at electronic recycling center > > I recently picked up a job at an electronic recycling center. Harris is right > around the corner from us, as well as a bunch of technical schools and > aerospace related businesses. All of thier old stuff ends up at the shop to be > resold as surplus or broken down and scrapped. > > There tends to be to much to process, and inside space is limited. > Excess equipment is stored outside in tents, and it goes to crap quite quickly > unfortunately. The humidity and rain destroys stuff outside quickly. I am > uncertain of how many requests I will get, but if anyone is looking for > something in particular, please send me an email and I will keep an eye out for > you. The place is a goldmine, and a lot of nice older gear is going to waste > because the store owners do not know what it is. > > Examples of stuff that comes in are old microcomputers like the c64, nice 486 > like machines with good isa cards in them, TONS of HP and tectronics test > equipment, ham radio gear, you name it. > There is a ton of good stuff here, i am trying to find some a good home before > it gets stripped out. > Some of this stuff works fine, the tandy 1000 computer I picked up this weekend > works flawlessly for example. Other things are in a broken or parts state, but > within reach of repair. There is a lot of new gear there as well, not many > machines come in with nice graphics cards in them, but tons of workstations > with lots of ram and hard drives are common. We get so many servers they are > broken down almost immediately unless they are particularly new or unique in > some way. > > Lets see how busy my inbox gets, if you are in need of something, please send > me an email, i can keep an eye out for it and hopefully be of service.I work on > Saturdays, that is the day i will be on site to look for things. > > Stuff will be priced as surplus/used. Hopefully i can be of use and keep some of > this stuff out of the scrap pile. > That is a great offer Devin, you don't say where you live, but I guess the USA. Personally, being a bit of a hoarder I wonder if I could do a job like that, seeing nice stuff being scrapped. It is a bit like my son, he loves animals and is great with them, but when I suggest he volunteers at an animal rescue he says he wouldn't be able to cope with the ones that are suffering. Regards Rob From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 06:18:27 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 05:18:27 -0600 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 29, 2017 09:54, "Dave Wade via cctalk" wrote: I am not sure they invented computer emulation. I think that the concept Emulation/Simulation is as old as, or perhaps even older than computing. Whilst it was a pure concept Alan Turing's "Universal Turing Machine" was a Turing machine that could emulate or simulate the behaviour of any arbitrary Turing machine... 1. Did Turing use the word "emulate"? I honestly have no idea. My (possibly wrong) impression was that no published literature used the word emulate with that meaning (one computer emulating another) before the IBM papers. 2. What a UTM does is simulate another machine using only a general-purpose machine. In fact, the UTM is arguably the most general-purpose machine ever described. What IBM defined as emulation was use of extremely specialized hardware and/or microcode (specifically, not the machine's general-purpose microcode used for natively programming the host machine). If anyone else did _that_ in a product before IBM, I'm very interested. From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Oct 30 07:12:27 2017 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:12:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: <002201d3501b$7cfe0e40$76fa2ac0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> <003601d34cf4$ba6615e0$2f3241a0$@ntlworld.com> <001101d34fd8$1de40790$59ac16b0$@ntlworld.com> <002201d3501b$7cfe0e40$76fa2ac0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi Rob, > By the way I just noticed a 15uF/25V one next to the fan connector. It isn't > one of the SXF ones as far as I can tell, do you recall replacing it? My notes indicate it is a Chemi-Con SM, a general purpose 85?C part. I did replace it at least once, in one of my H7826s that didn't actually get to leaking (yet?) and was still in a working condition. I suspect doing the replacement didn't really matter, as measuring the original gave reasonable readings for its class. I also have a later revision of H7826 which has LXF rather than SXF capacitors and this one looks really clean, almost like new, and also works correctly. I am in two minds about recapping this one, because despite of the good shape of the PSU my sources indicate the LXF parts have also suffered from the quaternary ammonium salt syndrome. I'll yet check the ESR for any suspicious raise. Maciej From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 09:34:32 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:34:32 +0100 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <51e40982-ee9a-ef2b-c909-34e16e9caba0@gmail.com> <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 30 October 2017 at 00:57, tom sparks via cctalk wrote: > > cant find the Gateway HandBook on ebay :( > if wanted the GPD Pocket i could buy these > or GDP Win > Toshiba Libretto size issues Your quoting is broken. It took 3 goes to type this because I couldn't find your actual reply. The Pandora is a gaming toy. It's got a terrible keyboard. The GDP is one device, it just comes with either Windows or Ubuntu installed. I think even the specs are the same. The difference between modern things and the Psion is of course battery life. A Psion 5/5mx ran for months on a pair of AAs. A mini-laptop runs for a few hours. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 30 09:41:25 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:41:25 -0000 Subject: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU In-Reply-To: References: <009b01d34c3f$e45f5560$ad1e0020$@ntlworld.com> <003601d34cf4$ba6615e0$2f3241a0$@ntlworld.com> <001101d34fd8$1de40790$59ac16b0$@ntlworld.com> <002201d3501b$7cfe0e40$76fa2ac0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <009901d3518d$29dcc850$7d9658f0$@ntlworld.com> I have ordered the part now anyway. Whether I will replace it or not I don't know yet. I am told that ESR measurements are not enough to detect bad caps though, although I always replace ones with ESR that is at or close to the limit on the table printed on my meter. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Maciej W. Rozycki [mailto:macro at linux-mips.org] > Sent: 30 October 2017 12:12 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > ; 'dwight' > Subject: RE: Cleaning and Restoring a Badly Corroded PSU > > Hi Rob, > > > By the way I just noticed a 15uF/25V one next to the fan connector. It > > isn't one of the SXF ones as far as I can tell, do you recall replacing it? > > My notes indicate it is a Chemi-Con SM, a general purpose 85?C part. I did > replace it at least once, in one of my H7826s that didn't actually get to leaking > (yet?) and was still in a working condition. I suspect doing the replacement > didn't really matter, as measuring the original gave reasonable readings for its > class. > > I also have a later revision of H7826 which has LXF rather than SXF capacitors > and this one looks really clean, almost like new, and also works correctly. I am > in two minds about recapping this one, because despite of the good shape of > the PSU my sources indicate the LXF parts have also suffered from the > quaternary ammonium salt syndrome. I'll yet check the ESR for any suspicious > raise. > > Maciej From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Oct 30 10:24:18 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 10:24:18 -0500 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <59F74422.5070207@pico-systems.com> On 10/30/2017 06:18 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > 2. What IBM defined as emulation was use of extremely specialized > hardware and/or microcode (specifically, not the machine's general-purpose > microcode used for natively programming the host machine). As far as I know, IBM's 360s did NOT have any special purpose hardware associated with their emulation packages. The only thing special was that additional microcode cards were installed. In the 360/30, these were Mylar cards with word lines on them, they were punched on a card punch to punch out the capacitor plates to make zeroes. On the 360/40, they were Mylar "tapes" that were punched to cut traces to go through or bypass the sense transformers. On 360/50 and 65, they were etched word line boards that had traces that weaved under the bit line capacitor plates. So, these were all custom to fit the specific instruction set to be emulated. But, as far as I know, they added no additional logic to the machine to support the emulation. In some cases, this made things fairly inefficient. At least on the 360/30, when running 14xx emulation, there were many holes in memory, because they did not convert between decimal and binary addresses. So, memory locations 0-9 were used, A-F were inaccessible, 10-19 were used, 1A-1F were skipped, and so on. Some of this made I/O buffers kind of strange, as the I/O buffers had to be repacked between the real I/O devices and the emulator's buffers. Jon From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 09:58:55 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:58:55 -0000 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02cf01d3518f$9bf2f340$d3d8d9c0$@gmail.com> Eric, The folks who made ENIAC programable didn?t use the word ?program? but they ran what we would now call programs. The fact that the word wasn?t used doesn?t mean the concept hadn?t already been invented. I did check and Turing didn?t use the term in his paper ?On Computable Numbers? and whilst the work ?emulate? is now associated with Universal Turing Machines I am inclined to agree that Turing probably didn?t see this as ?Emulation? in the modern sense of the word, but to me, there seems to be little difference between a UTM and SIMH?. Returning to ENIAC if you read Mark Priestley & Thomas Haig?s paper http://eniacinaction.com/docs/AddressableAccumulators.pdf you can see they describe ENIAC in stored program mode as ?a microcoded interpreter for a virtual von Neumann architecture machine? which seems to me to be equivalent to what IBM did, some years earlier. When I spoke to Mark Priestley after the talk.. http://www.computerconservationsociety.org/lectures/2015-16/20160511.htm he was quite clear that they configured ENIAC to emulate an EDVAC style machine and used the word ?emulate? several times in the talk, so I would argue that the ENIAC pioneers invented the concept but did not name it as such? Dave From: Eric Smith [mailto:spacewar at gmail.com] Sent: 30 October 2017 11:18 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; Dave Wade Subject: RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? On Oct 29, 2017 09:54, "Dave Wade via cctalk" > wrote: I am not sure they invented computer emulation. I think that the concept Emulation/Simulation is as old as, or perhaps even older than computing. Whilst it was a pure concept Alan Turing's "Universal Turing Machine" was a Turing machine that could emulate or simulate the behaviour of any arbitrary Turing machine... 1. Did Turing use the word "emulate"? I honestly have no idea. My (possibly wrong) impression was that no published literature used the word emulate with that meaning (one computer emulating another) before the IBM papers. 2. What a UTM does is simulate another machine using only a general-purpose machine. In fact, the UTM is arguably the most general-purpose machine ever described. What IBM defined as emulation was use of extremely specialized hardware and/or microcode (specifically, not the machine's general-purpose microcode used for natively programming the host machine). If anyone else did _that_ in a product before IBM, I'm very interested. From t.gardner at computer.org Mon Oct 30 13:06:25 2017 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:06:25 -0700 Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard In-Reply-To: <15f6b4a22cd-c09-36610@webjas-vae203.srv.aolmail.net> References: <496e1a6c-1b91-152e-c624-4ec37142de2e@crash.com> <15f6b4a22cd-c09-36610@webjas-vae203.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <007801d351a9$cdad35c0$6907a140$@computer.org> Apparently some of Hewlett's papers went to Stanford "Two new collections open for research: Helen and Newton Harrison & William Hewlett" http://library.stanford.edu/blogs/special-collections-unbound/2016/04/two-new-collections-open-research-helen-and-newton Tom -----Original Message----- From: Ed Sharpe [mailto:couryhouse at aol.com] Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 8:19 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard Karen Lewis felt Stanford was the place they should go... ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, October 29, 2017 Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: General comment to several earlier replies re: Bitsavers-type efforts. The tragedy here is not that some copies of uncommon but otherwise extant product documentation were lost. From the description, there were a large number of unique, individual documents created by significant historical figures. Fair bet that many of these didn't exist anywhere else. Certainly not if it included drafts of speeches and correspondence, as well as the final copy, etc. A better question (not that it does any good to ask it now) is why this stuff wasn't in the hands of university conservators or similar. I love bitsavers and warchive.org, but this is a level beyond what they typically focus on. (And to be sure, CHM would have at least kept such artifacts safe even if they couldn't do anything with them for a few years/decades.) Sigh. And I don't really mean to criticize anybody at Keysight, humans are generally bad at recognizing and planning for this kind of contingency - and I'm probably worst than most... --S. From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Mon Oct 30 14:08:02 2017 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 19:08:02 +0000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA Message-ID: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <23522670-2d4e-9484-d9d2-4ea2756ce551@sydex.com> On 10/30/2017 04:18 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > 2. What a UTM does is simulate another machine using only a general-purpose > machine. In fact, the UTM is arguably the most general-purpose machine ever > described. What IBM defined as emulation was use of extremely specialized > hardware and/or microcode (specifically, not the machine's general-purpose > microcode used for natively programming the host machine). If anyone else > did _that_ in a product before IBM, I'm very interested. Well, "emulate" is a very fuzzy word, even in the context that you provide. Taking as an example, some pre-S/360 hardware that's easily verified, is the IBM 7094. It ran the instruction set of the 7090 but with a single departure--the use of 7 index registers, selectable using a 3-bit isntruction field. In the 7090, that same field selected any of three registers--if you selected more than one, the contents were ORed together before subtracting from the base address. The 7094 did have a "7090 compatibility mode" that used only the first three index registers in the same manner as the 7090. Specific hardware than enabled one machine to act as another. So, is that "7090 emulation" on a 7094? --Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Mon Oct 30 14:50:24 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:50:24 -0500 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <23522670-2d4e-9484-d9d2-4ea2756ce551@sydex.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> <23522670-2d4e-9484-d9d2-4ea2756ce551@sydex.com> Message-ID: <59F78280.6060307@cimmeri.com> On 10/30/2017 2:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Well, "emulate" is a very fuzzy word, even in the context that you provide. > > Taking as an example, some pre-S/360 hardware that's easily verified, is > the IBM 7094. It ran the instruction set of the 7090 but with a single > departure--the use of 7 index registers, selectable using a 3-bit > isntruction field. In the 7090, that same field selected any of three > registers--if you selected more than one, the contents were ORed > together before subtracting from the base address. The 7094 did have a > "7090 compatibility mode" that used only the first three index registers > in the same manner as the 7090. > > Specific hardware than enabled one machine to act as another. > > So, is that "7090 emulation" on a 7094? > > --Chuck In the sense that the 7094 can emulate (regular English usage) a 7090, then yes it is. - J. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Oct 30 21:06:26 2017 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 22:06:26 -0400 Subject: HEXTIr - TI HexBus SD Drive In-Reply-To: <93825bed-c437-797a-afad-baff08dc0492@jbrain.com> References: <93825bed-c437-797a-afad-baff08dc0492@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20171030220626.2be39f48@verticle> On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 12:14:41 -0500 Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > In case anyone has a fondness for niche tech... > > At VCF-SE this year, the TI folks had a great exhibit, and perusing > it I saw an unfamiliar machine, the TI CC-40 (Compact Computer-40). > While I was investigating, the exhibitor (MillipedeMan aka Mark), > told me the machines were frustrating to use, as TI only supported > one communications method on the unit, a proprietary protocol called > HexBus, and produced very low quantities of very few peripherals that > work on the bus. Most frustratingly, they never producing a mass > storage device in any appreciable quantity, and there was no other > way to save programs written on the unit. > > Mark did note there was an eBay seller liquidating units, so I bought > a 2 unit combo from eBay before I left the show. > > Sadly, Summer happened, but I was finally able to get to the unit, > and started working on an SD-based mass storage device for the unit. > It was an interesting journey to learn a new protocol. > > The (development in progress) result is HEX-TI-r, the HexBus SD drive: > > GitHub source code is here: https://github.com/go4retro/HEXTIr > > Video of unit operating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX5ahVCRdvM > > I don't have a project page up yet, but will work on that. > > Jim > Nice work, Jim. Thanks for the effort you've put into this. jbdigriz From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Oct 30 21:32:37 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 22:32:37 -0400 Subject: HEXTIr - TI HexBus SD Drive Message-ID: <12040.72a19d2c.47293ac3@aol.com> ok .. does this mean I can put lots of ti 99/4 software on the sd card for people to play with in the museum? Ed# In a message dated 10/30/2017 7:06:33 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 12:14:41 -0500 Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > In case anyone has a fondness for niche tech... > > At VCF-SE this year, the TI folks had a great exhibit, and perusing > it I saw an unfamiliar machine, the TI CC-40 (Compact Computer-40). > While I was investigating, the exhibitor (MillipedeMan aka Mark), > told me the machines were frustrating to use, as TI only supported > one communications method on the unit, a proprietary protocol called > HexBus, and produced very low quantities of very few peripherals that > work on the bus. Most frustratingly, they never producing a mass > storage device in any appreciable quantity, and there was no other > way to save programs written on the unit. > > Mark did note there was an eBay seller liquidating units, so I bought > a 2 unit combo from eBay before I left the show. > > Sadly, Summer happened, but I was finally able to get to the unit, > and started working on an SD-based mass storage device for the unit. > It was an interesting journey to learn a new protocol. > > The (development in progress) result is HEX-TI-r, the HexBus SD drive: > > GitHub source code is here: https://github.com/go4retro/HEXTIr > > Video of unit operating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX5ahVCRdvM > > I don't have a project page up yet, but will work on that. > > Jim > Nice work, Jim. Thanks for the effort you've put into this. jbdigriz From brain at jbrain.com Mon Oct 30 22:25:10 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 22:25:10 -0500 Subject: HEXTIr - TI HexBus SD Drive In-Reply-To: <12040.72a19d2c.47293ac3@aol.com> References: <12040.72a19d2c.47293ac3@aol.com> Message-ID: <04bfb2eb-84c2-1cb8-5d8b-64038bbeafca@jbrain.com> On 10/30/2017 9:32 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > ok .. does this mean I can put lots of ti 99/4 software on the sd > card for people to play with in the museum? > Ed# Do you have a HexBus interface for the 99/4a? Jim From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Oct 30 22:35:22 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 23:35:22 -0400 Subject: HEXTIr - TI HexBus SD Drive Message-ID: <12b48.f4d4827.4729497a@aol.com> Jim I thought all TI computers had one? But I am new to TI's never owned one when were new... just dealing with one in a museum environment now. In a message dated 10/30/2017 8:25:17 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 10/30/2017 9:32 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > ok .. does this mean I can put lots of ti 99/4 software on the sd > card for people to play with in the museum? > Ed# Do you have a HexBus interface for the 99/4a? I thought all of them had it? From brain at jbrain.com Mon Oct 30 22:44:04 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 22:44:04 -0500 Subject: HEXTIr - TI HexBus SD Drive In-Reply-To: <12b48.f4d4827.4729497a@aol.com> References: <12b48.f4d4827.4729497a@aol.com> Message-ID: On 10/30/2017 10:35 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > Jim I?thought? all TI? computers? had? one? But? I? am new to? TI's > never owned one? when were new...? just? dealing with one in a? > museum? environment? now. The only produced home machine, the 99/4(a), did not, but there is a prototype HexBus adapter. The 99/2 and 99/8 I believe both had the bus, as does the TI 74 and TI 95 (the physical conn is different, but the bus is the same) Jim From dmhills at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 23:01:42 2017 From: dmhills at gmail.com (Don Hills) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 17:01:42 +1300 Subject: Image de-warping tool, and Multics/GCOS panels In-Reply-To: References: <20171027153052.6DBF718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: For quick (and automatic) perspective correction, sharpening and OCR, I use Microsoft's Office Lens. (Android, iOS, Windows 10 desktop) There are a couple of other apps that do the same sort of thing but I haven't tried them. On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 5:59 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Noeal asked: > > I'm having an issue with the images, though: taking a picture of a flat, > > rectangular panel with a camera usually produces distortion (even with > the > > lens set to the narrowest angle possible). > > > > Does anyone know of any freeware which will fix this? The image tool I > > normally use (ImagePals, sort of a poor man's Photoshop) does have a > 'warp' > > function, but it requires setting up a grid of points, and is a pain to > use: > > optimal would be something where you mark the 4 corners, and few > intermediate > > edge points, and the image is automagically fixed. > > > You could do it "by eye" in Photoshop and GIMP-type tools, but I believe a > far better and more adjustable > way is to use an operation in imagemagick called affine transformation. > With this you can tweak the > result programmatically to the nearest pixel-to-millimetre value to get > the best result. > > For instance I have done an analogous task in which I removed perspective > from black and white images > of a WWII vehicle onto a flat elevation, so that accurate markings and > camouflage patterns or precise > positions of fittings can be obtained, by only knowing the basic perimeter > edges. > > To do this, I firstly need an accurate measurement of the side of the > vehicle. Its exact length, height > will do. This is easily obtained from scale modelling information. In your > particular case, I think only > the width and height of the panel would be needed, OR the two expressed as > a ratio and scaled later. > > > WORKED EXAMPLE: > Let's take for example an IBM System/360-40 console. It is comprised of a > few individual panels but they > are arranged in two larger rectangles, joined along one ege, but with an > angle of about 163 degrees between > them. The upper panel's flat measurements are 711mm wide and 477mm long. > The lower panel is 71mm wide by 199mm high, as flat. > > Say I then found any sufficiently detailed photo of a /40 console, and > wanted to map the surface of that > to my known panel edge measurements. The photo is of course taken from any > arbitrary angle. > I will use this one, 1200x953 pixels, presenting a common three-quarter > side view, taken fron the left: > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/ > IBM_System_360_at_USDA.jpg/1200px-IBM_System_360_at_USDA.jpg > > The angled panels also show in the photo but that will be removed. Save > the image locally. > > I tend to start at the pixel that is the top right corner. The image > editor places the origin at the top left corner. > Essentially the corners of the console rectangle in the photo - taking the > upper panel only, for this example - > need to be stretched to my known rectangle of TR=(711,0) to BR= (711,477) > to BL=(0,477) to TL=(0,0). > The rectangular polygon will automatically be closed back to the start. > I'm using mm but you could use any > measurement unit you like. > > Next, load the above photo of the console in any good-enough image editor. > I use the free Paint.NET for this > purpose and I absolutely love it. Move around the photo, zoom in etc. and > place the mouse cursor exactly > on the top right corner and take a note of the pixel coordinate shown in > the lower right of the app. I make it > to be (675,141) on that particular photo. > > Then do the same for the bottom right, bottom left, top left corner > pixels. Remember this is the top panel only, > the lower is done in the same fashion seperately. These are done in the > same point-to-point sequence as the > known measurements, and must be the same number of coordinates. It does > not have to be a rectangle, you > may have five, six or more coordinates for a say a vehicle or spaceship > scale elevation. > So directly off the photo: > 675,141 TR > 646,315 BR > 442,336 BL > 458,129 TL > > Now, assuming Imagemagick is installed, all we need to is tell it to > stretch those coordinates to our > known actual square coordinates by pairing them, pixel-to-known > coordinate. On the command line, or in > a text file enter and paste into the shell (I use git bash on Windows): > > convert 1200px-IBM_System_360_at_USDA.jpg -virtual-pixel black > -distort Perspective "675,141 711,0 646,315 711,477 442,336 0,477 > 458,129 0,0" Model40_upper_panel_transformed_true_flat1.jpg > > Now the required de-perspective image will be in Model40_upper_panel_ > transformed_true_flat.jpg > > If you don't want to go through the above steps yourself you can see the > result at > http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/Model40_upper_ > panel_transformed_true_flat1.jpg > > Then use the image editor rubber banding to select the required amount of > this true flattened image, now using > the original actual measurements as the pixel coordinates for cropping. > eg. TR edge is pixel (711,0) etc. > > If the simple Perspective operation doesn't gove you a good result, try > some other Imagemagick operations eg: > convert 1200px-IBM_System_360_at_USDA.jpg -virtual-pixel black > -interpolate Spline -distort BilinearForward "675,141 711,0 646,315 > 711,477 442,336 0,477 458,129 0,0" Model40_upper_panel_ > transformed_true_flat2.jpg > > this result #2 at > http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/Model40_upper_ > panel_transformed_true_flat2.jpg > > although I tend to find the Perspective does a better job. There is plenty > of help on the imagemagick.org site > and also Stack Overflow., such as > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12276098/ > understanding-perspective-projection-distortion-imagemagick > > Further post-processing for me would be to then load this 711x477 image as > the background image layer in CAD > where it is fitted to a rectangle of the same size, in actual mm real > world dimensions. I can then overdraw all manner > of lines, construction lines, circles and other drawing elements to get a > near-perfect actual CAD drawing. Every so > often I just hide the background layer to see how it looks, and bits I've > missed. > > Sorry about the long blurb but hope it can help you on your panel. > > Steve. > > From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Oct 31 00:52:35 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 01:52:35 -0400 Subject: HEXTIr - TI HexBus SD Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15f70fd12ec-c0a-4fd7f@webjas-vaa197.srv.aolmail.net> thanks... I learn as I go!.. ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Monday, October 30, 2017 Jim Brain wrote: On 10/30/2017 10:35 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: Jim I?thought? all TI? computers? had? one? But? I? am new? to? TI's never owned one? when were new...? just? dealing? with one in a? museum? environment? now. The only produced home machine, the 99/4(a), did not, but there is a prototype HexBus adapter.? The 99/2 and 99/8 I believe both had the bus, as does the TI 74 and TI 95 (the physical conn is different, but the bus is the same) Jim From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Oct 30 11:23:32 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 09:23:32 -0700 Subject: Look to get a copy of a Multi-Tech FM300 Modem manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That would be great. Next year as one of my teleprinter demonstrations I want to have a Teletype 33 or 35 and the FM300 and a Bell System 500 rotary dial desk phone. -pete On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Give me a day or two and I think I can help you out. I used to work at > Multi-Tech when the FM300 was still a product. I have several along with > original schematics, which are "blue prints"... > > I have almost as many stories about Multi-Tech as I do ETA ;-) > > Chris > > On October 29, 2017 1:40:03 PM CDT, Pete Lancashire via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >I've acquired a Multi-Tech FM300 acoustic modem and even though I could > >figure out the pin-outs > >and switch settings, it would be great if I could get a copy of the > >original manual. > > > >Goal is to add it to a Teletype 33 or 35 and a Bell System 500 desk > >set. > > > >-pete > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From tomasparks.ts at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 12:04:14 2017 From: tomasparks.ts at gmail.com (tom sparks) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 03:04:14 +1000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <51e40982-ee9a-ef2b-c909-34e16e9caba0@gmail.com> <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 31/10/17 00:34, Liam Proven wrote: > On 30 October 2017 at 00:57, tom sparks via cctalk > wrote: > >> cant find the Gateway HandBook on ebay :( >> if wanted the GPD Pocket i could buy these >> or GDP Win >> Toshiba Libretto size issues > Your quoting is broken. It took 3 goes to type this because I couldn't > find your actual reply. I checked cctalk mail archive I could not find where my text quoting is broken[1] > > The Pandora is a gaming toy. It's got a terrible keyboard. > > The GDP is one device, it just comes with either Windows or Ubuntu > installed. I think even the specs are the same. I was say that the "modern" GPD pocket version sucks compared to the older versions. if i was designing the next gen, i would start of with a kindle keyboard[2], clamshell it, then make it smaller > The difference between modern things and the Psion is of course > battery life. A Psion 5/5mx ran for months on a pair of AAs. A > mini-laptop runs for a few hours. > [1]: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2017-October/035578.html [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Kindle_Keyboard From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Oct 30 14:44:33 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:44:33 -0400 Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard In-Reply-To: <00f301d35111$f5e0f150$e1a2d3f0$@internode.on.net> References: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> <00f301d35111$f5e0f150$e1a2d3f0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: > It seems with the internet that crowd-sourcing is way of resourcing things. Maybe we (that's us on this list) need to apply this concept to the scanning and archiving and retention of any paper based repositories that still exist. I'll call it crowd-scanning for the time being. Unfortunately, it sounds like much of what was lost is internal HP documentation, no way to replace that. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Oct 30 14:47:44 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:47:44 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> Message-ID: <8d9fb735-cc8a-c313-4ce0-72c39eb76eb0@snarc.net> > Radio Shack M100 ... still used by some writers for the very reason you mention. That is not true. It was an urban legend in the 1990s that a handful of old farts in the entirely sportswriting industry (thousands of writers overall) may "still" be using their Model 100s. I'm sure if you looked hard enough some of them still used typewriters too. In 2017? It's ridiculous to even speculate. From RichA at livingcomputers.org Mon Oct 30 15:13:52 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 20:13:52 +0000 Subject: CDC 6000 series transistors [was RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?] Message-ID: From: Paul Koning Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 12:07 PM > True if you have a TTL machine. 6600 is discrete transistor, and the actual > transistor specs are nowhere to be found as far as I have been able to tell. > But that doesn't directly relate to gate level emulation. If you have gate > level documentation you can of course build a copy of the machine out of > actual gate-type parts, like 7400 chips. Or you can write a gate level model > in VHDL, which is not the most popular form but certainly perfectly > straightforward. Either way, though, you have to start with a document that > shows what the gates are in the original and how they connect. And to get it > to work, you need to deal with timing issues and logic abuse, if present. In > the 6600, both are very present and very critical. For example, I've been > debugging a section (the central processor branch logic) where the behavior > changes quite substantially depending on whether you favor S or R in an R/S > flop, i.e., if both are asserted at the same time, who wins? And the circuit > and wire delays matter, down to the few-nanosecond level. Paul, I asked the Principal Engineer here, who has spent the last 3 years making our 6500 run, about transistors in the 6000 series. He replied: Near as I can tell, the 6500 uses 2n2369 transistors in a slightly shorter version of the to-18 package. I have had good success with both the 2n2369 for replacements, and mmbt2369 for the modules I have re-manufactured. Since the flip-flops are merely cross coupled transistors, if they are both set at once, both outputs will be true. In my experience, the set and reset run on different phases of the clock, so that doesn't happen. What you see on the logic diagrams can be interpreted this way: Each arrow is a transistor, with the emitter tied to ground. The base usually has about a 150 ohm resistor. The circle or square is the collector pull-up resistor, so in the example of the PC module in 1n15 of the 6500, there are two gates that can set flip-flop 0, and they come in on transistor 15, and 17, and the other side of the flip-flop comes in on transistor 19. All three transistor collectors are connected together to 1 pull-up. If the output pin does not go anywhere internal to the card, there will be a 120 ohm resistor in series with a diode to ground on it. If it does go somewhere internal to the card, they will leave off the resistor/diode, as the load will provide it. Hope that helps. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 01:20:11 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 01:20:11 -0500 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA Message-ID: <59f8161f.2b289d0a.7d83d.2750@mx.google.com> It could also be from the popular article about George RR Martin using a vintage dos computer with wordstar 4.0 for his writing rig. Similar to some other authors I've heard look for a machine that doesn't offer distractions. My own mis-remembrance though for some reason I thought it was a trs-80 model 4p but I'm not finding specifics in the quick google search. -------- Original message --------From: Evan Koblentz via cctalk Date: 10/30/17 2:47 PM (GMT-06:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA > Radio Shack M100 ... still used by some writers for the very reason you mention. That is not true. It was an urban legend in the 1990s that a handful of old farts in the entirely sportswriting industry (thousands of writers overall) may "still" be using their Model 100s. I'm sure if you looked hard enough some of them still used typewriters too. In 2017? It's ridiculous to even speculate. From useddec at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 01:54:24 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 01:54:24 -0500 Subject: Does anyone need any before I list them on eBay? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have several Q-bus boxes available: BA11-M 4x4 MA11-N 4x9 BA11-S BA23- no cases right now, a few have rack mount kits, some I'll hang on to till I find the micro vax boards. Looking for offers. MOST CAN BE SHIPPED! Probably under $100 in US. All boxes can be configured within reason, but I am getting short of memory, in more ways than o one... I might be leaving Illinois and going to Baltimore, maybe Virginia, then north to the Boston area, back through NY, through Canada, Detroit, and back to Illinois. I could be leaving as soon as next week. There is another list member coming through here from the east coast and going to Denver and back. Hopefully he'll junk in here... Thanks, Paul On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 2:02 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I'm still trying to sell some extra Q-bus boards before I list them on > ebay, and I would rather they found a happy home here. > > Shipping is a flat $10 within the US for as many as you want. Please ask > for overseas shipping. If you need any others, or have a "wishlist" please > contact me off list. > > Thanks, Paul > > M3106 DZQ11 $40 > M3107 DHQ11 40 > M8043 DLV11-J 60 > M8186 11/23 CPU 60 > M8189 11/23+ CPU 60 > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Oct 31 02:02:49 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 03:02:49 -0400 Subject: Look to get a copy of a Multi-Tech FM300 Modem manual Message-ID: <3198bf.214b0963.47297a18@aol.com> https://www.multitech.com/about-us/history How accurate is this Multi-Tech history? Ed# In a message dated 10/30/2017 11:07:17 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: That would be great. Next year as one of my teleprinter demonstrations I want to have a Teletype 33 or 35 and the FM300 and a Bell System 500 rotary dial desk phone. -pete On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Give me a day or two and I think I can help you out. I used to work at > Multi-Tech when the FM300 was still a product. I have several along with > original schematics, which are "blue prints"... > > I have almost as many stories about Multi-Tech as I do ETA ;-) > > Chris > > On October 29, 2017 1:40:03 PM CDT, Pete Lancashire via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >I've acquired a Multi-Tech FM300 acoustic modem and even though I could > >figure out the pin-outs > >and switch settings, it would be great if I could get a copy of the > >original manual. > > > >Goal is to add it to a Teletype 33 or 35 and a Bell System 500 desk > >set. > > > >-pete > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Oct 31 01:21:21 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 02:21:21 -0400 Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard In-Reply-To: References: <13079e.30d24122.4727a591@aol.com> <00f301d35111$f5e0f150$e1a2d3f0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <9494e5c2-9972-5522-f35d-66043065dcf4@snarc.net> This article has more details about the archive situation and, more important, it has a comment from HP at the end. https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/tech-history/silicon-revolution/loss-of-hewlettpackard-archive-a-wakeup-call-for-computer-historians From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Oct 31 02:39:00 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 03:39:00 -0400 Subject: Look to get a copy of a Multi-Tech FM300 Modem manual Message-ID: <319ea9.178879b5.47298294@aol.com> they claim FIRST ACOUSTIC COUPLER IN 1970.... nah... GE 1968 My customer has an Olivetti terminal that he wants to use on GE Time-Sharing Service. How much does our acoustic coupler cost and what is the rental fee? The TDM 114 acoustic coupler rents for $25 a month (including maintenance by service shops) and sells for $395. The TDM 115 acoustic coupler costs $495. Aug. 1968 GE service Note - time share etc Multi-Tech says... 1970: Dr. Sharma founds and incorporates Multi-Tech Systems, renting new office space in the basement of the Schneider's Drug building in Minneapolis. He sells the world's first acoustic coupler to Professor Schmitt, inventor of the Schmitt trigger, for $300. worlds first? hmmm... Not. Remember too the Deaf had acoustic couplers prior to 1970 also! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/31/2017 12:02:56 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: https://www.multitech.com/about-us/history How accurate is this Multi-Tech history? Ed# In a message dated 10/30/2017 11:07:17 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: That would be great. Next year as one of my teleprinter demonstrations I want to have a Teletype 33 or 35 and the FM300 and a Bell System 500 rotary dial desk phone. -pete On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Give me a day or two and I think I can help you out. I used to work at > Multi-Tech when the FM300 was still a product. I have several along with > original schematics, which are "blue prints"... > > I have almost as many stories about Multi-Tech as I do ETA ;-) > > Chris > > On October 29, 2017 1:40:03 PM CDT, Pete Lancashire via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >I've acquired a Multi-Tech FM300 acoustic modem and even though I could > >figure out the pin-outs > >and switch settings, it would be great if I could get a copy of the > >original manual. > > > >Goal is to add it to a Teletype 33 or 35 and a Bell System 500 desk > >set. > > > >-pete > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Oct 31 02:45:45 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 03:45:45 -0400 Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David P... Message-ID: <319f8f.53066d25.47298428@aol.com> I think there are some people that will state anything at this point at Corp. to cover their ass's over this debacle... Ed# In a message dated 10/31/2017 12:19:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: This article has more details about the archive situation and, more important, it has a comment from HP at the end. https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/tech-history/silicon-revoluti on/loss-of-hewlettpackard-archive-a-wakeup-call-for-computer-historians From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Oct 31 03:17:09 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:17:09 +0100 Subject: Does anyone need any before I list them on eBay? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171031081708.GT32512@Update.UU.SE> Hi Do you have a BA11-VA ? Thank you, Pontus. On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 01:54:24AM -0500, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > I have several Q-bus boxes available: > > BA11-M 4x4 > MA11-N 4x9 > BA11-S > BA23- no cases right now, a few have rack mount kits, some I'll hang on to > till I find the > micro vax boards. Looking for offers. > > MOST CAN BE SHIPPED! Probably under $100 in US. > > All boxes can be configured within reason, but I am getting short of > memory, in more ways than o > one... > > I might be leaving Illinois and going to Baltimore, maybe Virginia, then > north to the Boston area, back through NY, through Canada, Detroit, and > back to Illinois. I could be leaving as soon as next week. > > There is another list member coming through here from the east coast and > going to Denver and back. Hopefully he'll junk in here... > > Thanks, Paul > > On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 2:02 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > I'm still trying to sell some extra Q-bus boards before I list them on > > ebay, and I would rather they found a happy home here. > > > > Shipping is a flat $10 within the US for as many as you want. Please ask > > for overseas shipping. If you need any others, or have a "wishlist" please > > contact me off list. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > M3106 DZQ11 $40 > > M3107 DHQ11 40 > > M8043 DLV11-J 60 > > M8186 11/23 CPU 60 > > M8189 11/23+ CPU 60 > > From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 02:44:53 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:44:53 -0700 Subject: Yet More New Items For Sale from Ye Olde VintageTech archives Message-ID: Here is yet another batch of items for sale. Full running list with updates is here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?58709-New-Items-For-Sale-Check-the-List-and-Make-an-Offer-or-Request&p=483525#post483525 New items for October 31, 2017: Boards Problem Solver Systems, Inc. Model RAM16 16K Static RAM - for S100 systems, with original instruction manual; uses TMS4045 1024 word x 4-bit static RAM - $40 Vector 2201-1 S100 prototyping board - unused, has gold plated edge connector with one pad per each pin, and a grid of holes - $15 Wameco EPM-2 - completely bare/unpopulated EPROM board for S100 bus - $10 Artec Electronics WW-100 [REV. 1] - completely bare/unpopulated S100 board - $5 MediaVision Pro Audio (1993) - ISA 16-bit board, brand new, in originally sealed anti-static bag - $5 Peripherals Atari SX212 - modem only, no power supply - $10 Commodore VICMODEM - clean condition, minor scratches on face label - $13 shipped anywhere in USA Tandy Enhanced Keyboard - 5-pin DIN connector; includes form-fitting dust/spill-cover so keyboard is extremely clean - $25 TRS-80 Acoustic Coupler for TRS-80 Portable Computer Model 100 - excellent condition, in original (very good condition) box - $20 Floppy Disk Services, Inc. 5SVA&T-2 dual 5.25" disk drive - has two Matsushita JA-551-2 half-height drives and dual 34-pin female header socket ribbon cable, for TRS-80(?); powers up, both drives spin briefly, unable to test further - $40 Parts Heathkit H19 keybaord - decent shape; missing 4 keycaps on numeric keypad (6, 9, and the two next to 0) and two on the main keyboard (next to BACK SPACE and REPEAT); marked 85-2223-1 and 111078, "COPR HEATH 1978"; unknown functional condition - $10 Computers JUKO Tiny Pro SF - small footprint (10" x 11.5", 3" high) PC - motherboard has Harris CS80C286-16 CPU, Oak Technology OTIVGA, AMI 286 BIOS, floppy & IDE controllers; integrated NEC FD1138H 3.5" floppy drive; requires 5-pin DIN 5VDC/7A power supply (not included); unable to test - $40 Apple //e - standard 64K model, bare bones, no adaptors; works great all around, very nice condition with some yellowing - $40 Software Infocom Suspended on 8" floppy disk in original Infocom sleeve for CP/M (single density disk), near new looking - $20 Altera MAX+plus II Programmable Logic Development System - complete package, includes Getting Started, User Guide, and AHDL manuals, version 4.02 software (Quartet?) diskettes still in shrinkwrap sealed envelope, Max+plus II Software Guard dongle - $40 The Clone Machine with Unguard - a Commodore 64 program for copying/inspecting/editing disks (cracking tool); includes original disk, user made working disk, original manual - $20 including shipping to anywhere in USA MacProject - project management software for original Macintosh and Lisa computers (as indicated on original box); box is in decent condition with several creases and kind of punched in on the back; includes two MacProject program disks and one A Guided Tour disk, labels are foxing - $15 Accessories Apple Macintosh 512K enhanced accessory kit - includes Macintosh 512K enhanced user guide, Mac software catalog & sampler, product registration card, packing list, A Guided Tour (audio cassette, shrinkwrapped); missing system software diskettes ; box is pushed in from the top and creased in the corners but otherwise in fine shape; I'll throw in The Easy Guide to Your Macintosh (Sybex, 1984) - $25 Original manual (shrinkwrapped) and Warranty, registration card inserts for Apple 3.5" Drive, plus drive number stickers - $6 More information and photographs for any item upon request, but please have serious intent to purchase and not just being a looky-loo as I field a lot of requests and it takes a lot of time I'm happy to negotiate a bulk price for multiple items, combined shipping is cheaper, and items are always packed efficiently with superior care and materials. Shipping is from California. Local pick-up is highly encouraged (you get to shop my inventory). International purchasers are always welcome. As always, please send inquiries to me directly via e-mail ( sellam.ismail at gmail.com) for best results. Thanks! Sellam From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Oct 31 07:14:07 2017 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 06:14:07 -0600 Subject: Does anyone need any before I list them on eBay? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e26ac40-dde6-fbc5-fbbd-904483500b69@e-bbes.com> On 2017-10-31 00:54, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > There is another list member coming through here from the east coast and > going to Denver and back. Hopefully he'll junk in here... > > Thanks, Paul Who is it, and where on the east coast is he? From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 30 11:43:51 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:43:51 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <1509138059.3103.9.camel@pbcl.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> <7A084FEC-A79F-46CF-AFA6-22301720E951@shaw.ca> <1509138059.3103.9.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 27, 2017, at 5:00 PM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 2017-10-27 at 13:38 -0700, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> I wonder if they were just trying to draw an analogy between the >> inherent dynamic operation requirements of magnetic logic and the >> dynamic operation requirements of some (many?) NMOS designs (not >> really inherent to NMOS). > > On the subject of NMOS dynamic logic, someone recently pointed out a > paragraph in the technical manual for a 1990s ARM2-based computer which > warned of dire consequences, including possibly destruction of the > chipset, if the circuitry was left powered with the clock stopped for > more than a second or two. > > Obviously if the clock is stopped for more than a few hundred > microseconds then the logic will start to lose its marbles and the > system will need a reset to recover. But I don't think I've previously > heard any suggestion that dynamic logic ICs would actually be damaged > or destroyed under these circumstances. I can just about imagine that > there might be some situation where an invalid internal state would > result in a short circuit between power and ground, but that's just > supposition really. Anybody know of a case where something bad has > actually happened? I don't understand this at all. "Dynamic logic" is not a familiar concept, and certainly the NMOS logic I know isn't dynamic. Memory (DRAM) is dynamic, and will forget if you don't refresh it. But DRAM doesn't mind if you stop the clock, it just won't remember its data. So I don't know how you might have a logic design that "loses its marbles" if you stop the clock. And anything that is fried by clock loss is, in my view, the work of someone who should not be allowed anywhere near a EE shop. Incidentally, while "soft core" magnetic logic is dynamic, memory core logic is not. You could slow that down and it would still work. The signals are pulses, not levels, but the pulses will still happen with a 1 Hz clock. paul From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue Oct 31 14:21:34 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 19:21:34 +0000 Subject: H7861 PSU issues Message-ID: <87lgjr3yyp.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Hi everyone, I've been trying to figure out what is wrong with the 12V rail on my H7861 (BA11-S) power supply. It's showing about 4.2V. The 5V rail is spot on. Page 39 of the following schematics is the main part board of the PSU. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP01233_BA11-S_schem_Mar81.pdf Going into the collector of Q3 is about 80V coming straight from T2 (I think I measured it at about 100Hz), but the emitter is putting out the 4.2V, which is the same as the base voltage and output voltage. I tried replacing this transistor because the hFE was about 80 and a good one was about 120. Unfortunately it didn't do anything. None of the capacitors look swollen and I don't see any leakage. There is a smaller board which I think goes into J4. The 12V side seems to have a 555 timer and adjusting the pot doesn't change the voltage at all. My understanding of switchmode power supplies is very poor. Does anyone have some pointers on what to check or what might be the possible cause? Hopefully I can get my PDP up and running again... Only got about 20 minutes use out of it. Thanks! Aaron. From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue Oct 31 16:26:10 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 21:26:10 +0000 Subject: H7861 PSU issues In-Reply-To: <87lgjr3yyp.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87lgjr3yyp.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87k1zb3t71.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Just had another look after watching a video about how switch mode power supplies work.... On the small control board connecting to J4, there are two D44Q1 transistors. As expected, there is about 65KHz going into the base of the transistor for the 5V side. However, there is no signal going into the base of the transistor for the 12V side, from pin 3 of the 555. So, it looks like the problem is coming from around here. I measured the suspicious components around the 555 and they seem fine. How likely is it that the 555 is dead? There is 10v going into pin 8, which I believe is correct. Thanks, Aaron. Aaron Jackson writes: > Hi everyone, > > I've been trying to figure out what is wrong with the 12V rail on my > H7861 (BA11-S) power supply. It's showing about 4.2V. The 5V rail is > spot on. > > Page 39 of the following schematics is the main part board of the PSU. > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP01233_BA11-S_schem_Mar81.pdf > > Going into the collector of Q3 is about 80V coming straight from T2 (I > think I measured it at about 100Hz), but the emitter is putting out the > 4.2V, which is the same as the base voltage and output voltage. I tried > replacing this transistor because the hFE was about 80 and a good one > was about 120. Unfortunately it didn't do anything. > > None of the capacitors look swollen and I don't see any leakage. There > is a smaller board which I think goes into J4. The 12V side seems to > have a 555 timer and adjusting the pot doesn't change the voltage at > all. > > My understanding of switchmode power supplies is very poor. Does anyone > have some pointers on what to check or what might be the possible cause? > > Hopefully I can get my PDP up and running again... Only got about 20 > minutes use out of it. > > Thanks! > > Aaron. -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 16:59:24 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 17:59:24 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> <7A084FEC-A79F-46CF-AFA6-22301720E951@shaw.ca> <1509138059.3103.9.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: <9e0c03e9-3301-fdd3-fb72-fbe192a98a1d@gmail.com> On 10/30/2017 12:43 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Oct 27, 2017, at 5:00 PM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Fri, 2017-10-27 at 13:38 -0700, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>> I wonder if they were just trying to draw an analogy between the >>> inherent dynamic operation requirements of magnetic logic and the >>> dynamic operation requirements of some (many?) NMOS designs (not >>> really inherent to NMOS). >> On the subject of NMOS dynamic logic, someone recently pointed out a >> paragraph in the technical manual for a 1990s ARM2-based computer which >> warned of dire consequences, including possibly destruction of the >> chipset, if the circuitry was left powered with the clock stopped for >> more than a second or two. >> >> Obviously if the clock is stopped for more than a few hundred >> microseconds then the logic will start to lose its marbles and the >> system will need a reset to recover. But I don't think I've previously >> heard any suggestion that dynamic logic ICs would actually be damaged >> or destroyed under these circumstances. I can just about imagine that >> there might be some situation where an invalid internal state would >> result in a short circuit between power and ground, but that's just >> supposition really. Anybody know of a case where something bad has >> actually happened? > I don't understand this at all. "Dynamic logic" is not a familiar concept, and certainly the NMOS logic I know isn't dynamic. Memory (DRAM) is dynamic, and will forget if you don't refresh it. But DRAM doesn't mind if you stop the clock, it just won't remember its data. > > So I don't know how you might have a logic design that "loses its marbles" if you stop the clock. And anything that is fried by clock loss is, in my view, the work of someone who should not be allowed anywhere near a EE shop. NMOS dynamic logic relies on two things memory or register cells that operate just like Dram so they forget without refresh.? It also relies on logic nodes that precharge to some state and are selectively discharged by the logic.? Doing that saves resistive pullups or complementary logic.? This type of logic has a specified minimum clock though you could usually go far slower.? The 8080 was an early example. > Incidentally, while "soft core" magnetic logic is dynamic, memory core logic is not. You could slow that down and it would still work. The signals are pulses, not levels, but the pulses will still happen with a 1 Hz clock. The timing of the logic in some cases where tied to the switching time of the cores used.? Otherwise it was hard to determine when and if the core switched. However rope core and ferro-transformers would work at any rate so long as the pulse waveform was had the right rise and fall times.??? FYI rope core was basically many transformers either with a wire in for the bit or wire around for the not bit.? The cores for rope didn't change magnetic state like coincident current cores of the bistable type as that allowed read write but was DRO (destructive read out with re-write) which is the more familiar core and why it had a shorter read time and a longer cycle time between reads. Both have a fair amount of documentation out there.? The ferro-transformer logic were documented well too but you have to hunt for info.? They also came in many forms as to the logic performed including storage. Allison > paul > From tomasparks.ts at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 17:02:39 2017 From: tomasparks.ts at gmail.com (tom sparks) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 08:02:39 +1000 Subject: BBS software was Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> References: <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9978d921-cfdf-d410-4471-70fb20bf66e8@gmail.com> I am looking for BBS software to run on my linux computer that i can use to down/up-load stuff for my psion 5mx I have 2 xbees[1] to make the link PS: I know there is pswin[2] [1]: they are radio modems, see https://www.sparkfun.com/pages/xbee_guide [2]: http://psion.info/GJ5/psiwin233_32.html -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 06:38:23 +1000 From: tom sparks To: Mike Stein , General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts I want download all the data before I go and upload it when I return or use a "dial-up" connection[^1] [^1]: I am really unsure if I want to go down the TCP/IP path From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 18:50:54 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 19:50:54 -0400 Subject: BBS software was Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <9978d921-cfdf-d410-4471-70fb20bf66e8@gmail.com> References: <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> <9978d921-cfdf-d410-4471-70fb20bf66e8@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd get a RS232toWIFI dongle, they're cheap and easy to make a connection via simple terminal software to an outside telnet target. On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 6:02 PM, tom sparks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I am looking for BBS software to run on my linux computer that i can use > to down/up-load stuff for my psion 5mx > > I have 2 xbees[1] to make the link > > PS: I know there is pswin[2] > > [1]: they are radio modems, see https://www.sparkfun.com/pages/xbee_guide > [2]: http://psion.info/GJ5/psiwin233_32.html > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA > Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 06:38:23 +1000 > From: tom sparks > To: Mike Stein , General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > > > > I want download all the data before I go and upload it when I return or > use a "dial-up" connection[^1] > > [^1]: I am really unsure if I want to go down the TCP/IP path > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 20:07:34 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 18:07:34 -0700 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <2D2D371E-A97D-4915-993A-0C21F6E6B01D@comcast.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <1FE9B5BD-6769-4A63-BF47-BC0466BF7CC9@comcast.net> <2D2D371E-A97D-4915-993A-0C21F6E6B01D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/30/2017 03:44 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > The timing is carefully orchestrated, including of course provision > for cable delays. I'm reminded of a unit manager at CDC that I worked with for a time. His first job at CDC as a fresh EE out of UofMinn was to measure all the loops of cable on the backplane of the then-new 6600 to which Seymour had attached tags that read "TUNE". One marvels at the fiddling that must have been involved getting the thing to run. Fun with taper pins... Cray was certainly a character. Another associate regaled us with his experience outside Seymour's lab in Chippewa Falls, sitting with a couple of others in a car on a cold dark winter night exchanging code and listings with Cray's daughter at the door. He was not about to let them inside... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 20:21:50 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 18:21:50 -0700 Subject: DEC RX03 RT11A file extractor Message-ID: <4ad6d6bb-95e2-30a8-ed47-315620213a9c@sydex.com> List: This is the first time I've run across a bunch of double-sided 8" double-density floppies in RX02 encoding. I'm assuming that this is what's known as the RX03. The system is identified on disk as RT11A. Does anyone know of a program to extract the files from images of this sort (1,025,024 bytes: 26x256 sectors/track, 2 sides, 77 tracks)? I've tried John Wilson's PUTR, but it hangs when it sees the image--I can mount the image, but then anything after that just hangs the program. I'd prefer a Linux program, but DOS/Windows would be fine. Otherwise, I'll sharpen my pencil and get coding... Thanks, --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 31 19:02:24 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 00:02:24 -0000 Subject: H7861 PSU issues In-Reply-To: <87k1zb3t71.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87lgjr3yyp.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1zb3t71.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <00fa01d352a4$b249ede0$16ddc9a0$@ntlworld.com> I had a dead 555 on a completely different PSU, so it could be worth checking. I socketed it when I replaced it so it was easy to replace again. Also, just because a capacitor doesn't appear swollen or show signs of leakage, it seems that this doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't need replacing. In yet another PSU that I repaired recently, replacing the capacitors fixed it, although in the end I think the one that really fixed it was showing signs of leakage. On a lot of caps that I replace they show no leakage signs, but I do see a bit of a deposit on the negative terminal, I am not sure if this is a sign of any kind of problem. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Aaron > Jackson via cctech > Sent: 31 October 2017 21:26 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: H7861 PSU issues > > Just had another look after watching a video about how switch mode power > supplies work.... On the small control board connecting to J4, there are two > D44Q1 transistors. As expected, there is about 65KHz going into the base of the > transistor for the 5V side. However, there is no signal going into the base of the > transistor for the 12V side, from pin 3 of the 555. So, it looks like the problem is > coming from around here. I measured the suspicious components around the > 555 and they seem fine. > > How likely is it that the 555 is dead? There is 10v going into pin 8, which I > believe is correct. > > Thanks, > > Aaron. > > > > > > Aaron Jackson writes: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I've been trying to figure out what is wrong with the 12V rail on my > > H7861 (BA11-S) power supply. It's showing about 4.2V. The 5V rail is > > spot on. > > > > Page 39 of the following schematics is the main part board of the PSU. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP01233_BA11-S_schem_Mar81.pdf > > > > Going into the collector of Q3 is about 80V coming straight from T2 (I > > think I measured it at about 100Hz), but the emitter is putting out > > the 4.2V, which is the same as the base voltage and output voltage. I > > tried replacing this transistor because the hFE was about 80 and a > > good one was about 120. Unfortunately it didn't do anything. > > > > None of the capacitors look swollen and I don't see any leakage. There > > is a smaller board which I think goes into J4. The 12V side seems to > > have a 555 timer and adjusting the pot doesn't change the voltage at > > all. > > > > My understanding of switchmode power supplies is very poor. Does > > anyone have some pointers on what to check or what might be the possible > cause? > > > > Hopefully I can get my PDP up and running again... Only got about 20 > > minutes use out of it. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Aaron. > > > -- > Aaron Jackson > PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham > http://aaronsplace.co.uk