From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 1 00:18:40 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 06:18:40 +0000 Subject: Year 2017 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I went out to Santa Cruz to watch the last sun set of the year. There was a green>blue flash to make it more memorable. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Murray McCullough Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 10:17:47 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Year 2017 2016 is on the way out. For classic computer users let's hope 2017 allows our 'hobby' to continue to flourish. Happy computing for 2017! Murray :) From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Jan 1 01:13:20 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 01:13:20 -0600 Subject: Year 2017 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The pursuit, in and of itself, will always remain. What we see, and will continue to see, is a series of changes in focus and interest. Most of my classic-compy interest in in the 8-bit home computers, and the CBM machines (C64) in specific. And for now, I can't say that I see any diminished interest in this amazing old platform.. if anything, the enthusiasm continues to build. The limits of the system have yet to be reached. On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 12:18 AM, dwight wrote: > I went out to Santa Cruz to watch the last sun set of the year. > > There was a green>blue flash to make it more memorable. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Murray > McCullough > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 10:17:47 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Year 2017 > > 2016 is on the way out. For classic computer users let's hope 2017 > allows our 'hobby' to continue to flourish. > > Happy computing for 2017! > > Murray :) > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 1 01:35:21 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 07:35:21 +0000 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: <20161231222841.B048B18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161231222841.B048B18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 10:28 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Tony Duell > > > My first thought is to strip this RA80 (that's why I got it!). This > > will provide me with most of the missing parts > > ... > > Is there any reason to keep the bare, stripped, chassis, or should I > > let it go as scrap metal? > > ... > > Or should I preserve the RA80 as it is, and just use it as patterns for > > the missing bits. > > I don't have any problem at all with the concept of stripping the parts you > need off one drive to make the other work. After all, you'd be conserving the > number of complete drives: start with one complete, and one missing some > bits; end with one complete, and one missing some bits. > > However, I personally would not dispose of any of the bits, though (except > things which can be easily found, and will continue to be so, like standard > fasteners); once they are gone, they are gone forever. The problem is that my house has a finite volume. And space is not something I want to waste. Housing a drive that I am never going to use is doing just that. So let's try this.... Suppose I sourced all the fasteners and made up copies of the ribbon cables I am missing. The only things I would then take from the RA80 would be the gas strut hardware (the gas struts themselves in the RA80 seem to be dead anyway, they will not support the logic chassis). Is there anyone who would want the RA80 in that condition and could collect it? On the other hand, keeping the RA80 (albeit in bits) would save me the cost and hassle of finding the fasteners and making the cables. It would also give me a spare HDA, something that I think is worth having. I guess I can try to find somewhere to store the chassis parts just in case they are ever needed, rather than scrap them. > > UNC/UNF parts are easy to source on this side of the pond: I imagine they'd > be easy to find on eBay, or if there's something you can't locate, let me > know, and I can run over to the store and grab it and mail it off. They are almost impossible to find in small sizes (below 1/4") over here. Even spanners to fit them are difficult. And DEC did use some oddities in these drives (I would want to keep it as original as possible, so any screw with the right thread is not good enough). As for E-bay there is a certain delivery company (UKers will know the one I mean I think) that is favoured by many sellers, and indeed it appears by Ebay, who are useless. I will not order from anyone who uses them due to the hassle of lost parcels. End of. So that limits me a lot. Not to mention the fact I have better things to do than wait around for a parcel with half a dozen screws in it. Repeated 10 times... -tony From lars at nocrew.org Sun Jan 1 01:54:48 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 08:54:48 +0100 Subject: Year 2017 In-Reply-To: (Murray McCullough's message of "Sat, 31 Dec 2016 13:17:47 -0500") References: Message-ID: <86bmvrmczb.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Murray McCullough wrote: > Happy computing for 2017! We have at least two 50-year anniversaries coming up: the first PDP-10 was turned on in March 1967, and the Incompatible Timesharing System went into operation in July (on a PDP-6). From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jan 1 02:08:48 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 21:08:48 +1300 Subject: Year 2017 In-Reply-To: <86bmvrmczb.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <86bmvrmczb.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Yes, happy New Year's everyone. 2017 is the year where I'll give my 60+ computers a health check. For most the last time this happened was 2015. Not a comprehensive test, but a switch on, check the video looks ok and is stable, PEEK/POKE the RAM, make sure all the keys work and storage media is ok. Run them for at least 1/2 hour. Play a game of some sort perhaps. Note any problems. It gives me a chance to play with my toys! (: Terry (Tez) On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 8:54 PM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Murray McCullough wrote: > > Happy computing for 2017! > > We have at least two 50-year anniversaries coming up: the first PDP-10 > was turned on in March 1967, and the Incompatible Timesharing System > went into operation in July (on a PDP-6). > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jan 1 06:13:05 2017 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 12:13:05 +0000 Subject: Banner Panels In-Reply-To: <20161231075625.GO5974@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161230072047.GI5974@Update.UU.SE> <0c5c49dc-1c6c-0827-1ed6-042323c84e18@btinternet.com> <20161230100425.GL5974@Update.UU.SE> <20161231075625.GO5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 31/12/2016 07:56, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 11:04:26AM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> I'll provide examples of some of these. Others can be found online. > Here are three panels I could easily get to: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/front_paneler/headers/ > > /P These are great. Camera less than 1% spherical aberration. Rod -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jan 1 06:22:48 2017 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 12:22:48 +0000 Subject: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 31/12/2016 03:49, Charles Dickman wrote: > Rod, > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: >> Hi Guys >> >> I have had a quick word with the girls down at the silk screen >> shop. > A couple of years ago I tried to translate the DEC color standards to > RGB based on the colors in the standards on bitsavers. Here is what I > came up with: > > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/ > > I think I posted this already. > > How have you been doing your color matching? Have you published a > color list for the panels you have made? I am thinking about color > matching for switch handles for example that are in the same colors. > Some enduring standard translation for the colors would be great to > have available in the future. > > I never imagined how slippery color was until I tried to do the color > matching from the DEC standards. I had to meet Munsell, Ostwald and > the CHM (Color Harmony Manual, not the Computer History Museum), > before I was done. And Pantone seems to be the Microsoft of color. > > -chuck Chart looks very useful I can't copy it from your URL. Would you be so kind as to email to me as an attachment Rod -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Jan 1 11:31:01 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 10:31:01 -0700 Subject: FPGA 1802 and COSMAC ELF Message-ID: I've updated my VHDL 1802 core and COSMAC ELF for a newer FPGA, the Xilinx Artix 7. As usual, the source code in in the github repository: https://github.com/brouhaha/cosmac/ On the XC7A100T-1FGG484, which is the slowest speed grade, it meets timing at 62.5 MHz. Since my 1802 core only needs one clock per machine cycle, versus 8 for the original CDP1802, it runs at the equivalent of a 500 MHz CDP1802. I was actually able to run it at 100 MHz (800 MHz equivalent), but that doesn't meet timing so there's no guarantee that it will work; it is "overclocking" the FPGA. I can't really imagine any reason to need an 800 MHz equivalent CDP1802. :-) It has been tested with a few simple test programs and with CamelForth. The interrupt support and related instructions are still untested. Eric From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Jan 1 10:26:14 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 08:26:14 -0800 Subject: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To convert from Muncell to RGB http://www.andrewwerth.com/color/ http://www.munsellcolourscienceforpainters.com/ConversionsBetweenMunsellAndsRGBsystems.pdf On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > Rod, > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: >> Hi Guys >> >> I have had a quick word with the girls down at the silk screen >> shop. > > A couple of years ago I tried to translate the DEC color standards to > RGB based on the colors in the standards on bitsavers. Here is what I > came up with: > > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/ > > I think I posted this already. > > How have you been doing your color matching? Have you published a > color list for the panels you have made? I am thinking about color > matching for switch handles for example that are in the same colors. > Some enduring standard translation for the colors would be great to > have available in the future. > > I never imagined how slippery color was until I tried to do the color > matching from the DEC standards. I had to meet Munsell, Ostwald and > the CHM (Color Harmony Manual, not the Computer History Museum), > before I was done. And Pantone seems to be the Microsoft of color. > > -chuck > From mattiase at acm.org Sun Jan 1 13:39:07 2017 From: mattiase at acm.org (=?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?=) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 20:39:07 +0100 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought Message-ID: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> Would someone with a real DEC VT terminal be so kind and help settle, once and for all, the question about how they behave with respect to line-wrapping, exactly? It is something that isn't covered by any standard, nor by any of DEC's manuals, and there is a scarcity of information online that is not vague repetition of folklore. There are emulators, of course, but these do not agree with one another to the point that they can be trusted, and are probably just copying each other in any case. It seems that some ground truth would be welcome, for the benefit of both application and emulator writers. First, the problem: A VT100, when in "auto-wrap" mode, will wrap text from one line to the next in a peculiar way, sometimes called "soft-wrap" or "the VT100 glitch". When the terminal receives a printable character with the cursor in the last column, the character is put at that location but the cursor remains in place. Instead, the terminal enters a pending wrap state, which causes the cursor to wrap before next printable character is displayed. This behaviour is widely known. What isn't widely known are the finer points: * What control codes will cancel the wrap state? * What cursor position is reported in the wrap state? * Do any operations behave differently in the wrap state? * Is the wrap state saved/restored by the save/restore cursor codes? and so on. Every emulator programmer seems to have a different answer to these questions. If you have a VT100, VT220 or later model (compatibles like Wyse are also of interest) and have a spare moment, I'd be most grateful if you would download and run https://raw.githubusercontent.com/mattiase/wraptest/master/wraptest.c in that terminal, and send me the resulting output. (Redirect stdout to save the report.) The test program is not comprehensive but would give us a good idea of the rules. Current results, right now only from various emulators, are found in https://raw.githubusercontent.com/mattiase/wraptest/master/results.txt From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 1 15:54:11 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 16:54:11 -0500 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> References: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> Message-ID: <45366AF4-83CA-48D5-A9B8-1E1AC3E9976A@comcast.net> > On Jan 1, 2017, at 2:39 PM, Mattias Engdeg?rd wrote: > > Would someone with a real DEC VT terminal be so kind and help settle, once and for all, the question about how they behave with respect to line-wrapping, exactly? It is something that isn't covered by any standard, nor by any of DEC's manuals, and there is a scarcity of information online that is not vague repetition of folklore. I'll have to see if I can reverse engineer this from the RSTS PRO display code. The reason is that this was written based on the standard (DEC Std 070). If you can find that document, that would be great, because it is the authority on how things are supposed to be done. The VT200 series were supposedly implemented from that spec. The VT100 series predates it. paul From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 1 16:26:02 2017 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 22:26:02 +0000 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: <45366AF4-83CA-48D5-A9B8-1E1AC3E9976A@comcast.net> References: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> <45366AF4-83CA-48D5-A9B8-1E1AC3E9976A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <586981FA.9060800@ntlworld.com> On 01/01/17 21:54, Paul Koning wrote: > I'll have to see if I can reverse engineer this from the RSTS PRO > display code. The reason is that this was written based on the > standard (DEC Std 070). If you can find that document, that would be > great, because it is the authority on how things are supposed to be > done. The VT200 series were supposedly implemented from that spec. The > VT100 series predates it. paul I did see a bunch of DEC STDs sitting on bitsavers but 070 doesn't seem to be one of them. My scan is ~400MB (and 1090 pages long!) but if it will help I can see about making it available. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 1 16:38:04 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 14:38:04 -0800 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: <586981FA.9060800@ntlworld.com> References: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> <45366AF4-83CA-48D5-A9B8-1E1AC3E9976A@comcast.net> <586981FA.9060800@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I'll put my copy on line. It's 70mb, the mirrors should have it sometime tomorrow. On 1/1/17 2:26 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > I did see a bunch of DEC STDs sitting on bitsavers but 070 doesn't seem to be one of them. > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 1 19:56:48 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 20:56:48 -0500 Subject: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F0DD03-C190-4521-81F5-8810A51F22E5@comcast.net> > On Jan 1, 2017, at 11:26 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > To convert from Muncell to RGB > > http://www.andrewwerth.com/color/ > > http://www.munsellcolourscienceforpainters.com/ConversionsBetweenMunsellAndsRGBsystems.pdf What would also be interesting is a mapping from Muncell to Pantone, since that's the color scheme that seems to have survived. paul From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jan 2 02:39:40 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 09:39:40 +0100 (CET) Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <58668323.1080706@pico-systems.com> References: <1646865906.4042591.1483073092591.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1646865906.4042591.1483073092591@mail.yahoo.com> <58668323.1080706@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Dec 2016, Jon Elson wrote: > Is your drum in good condition? Ours was full of dust, and 3 tracks had been > ground down to the brass due to dust packing under the heads. You can relocate bad tracks as there are a couple of spare tracks. And the drum is made of aluminium, not brass. Christian From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Jan 1 14:20:20 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 15:20:20 -0500 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> References: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> Message-ID: On 01/01/2017 02:39 PM, Mattias Engdeg?rd wrote: > Would someone with a real DEC VT terminal be so kind and help settle, once and for all, the question about how they behave with respect to line-wrapping, exactly? It is something that isn't covered by any standard, nor by any of DEC's manuals, and there is a scarcity of information online that is not vague repetition of folklore. The terminals SRM did cover this from the VT220 on. The transition from VT100 and related add on versions to the monolythic VT220 required setting standards for all terminals as up to that point it was NOT consistent within VT100 models or prior to VT100 (VT05 and VT52). > There are emulators, of course, but these do not agree with one another to the point that they can be trusted, and are probably just copying each other in any case. It seems that some ground truth would be welcome, for the benefit of both application and emulator writers. > > First, the problem: A VT100, when in "auto-wrap" mode, will wrap text from one line to the next in a peculiar way, sometimes called "soft-wrap" or "the VT100 glitch". When the terminal receives a printable character with the cursor in the last column, the character is put at that location but the cursor remains in place. Instead, the terminal enters a pending wrap state, which causes the cursor to wrap before next printable character is displayed. This behaviour is widely known. > > What isn't widely known are the finer points: > > * What control codes will cancel the wrap state? > * What cursor position is reported in the wrap state? > * Do any operations behave differently in the wrap state? > * Is the wrap state saved/restored by the save/restore cursor codes? > > and so on. Every emulator programmer seems to have a different answer to these questions. All of that is due to either not understanding weather the terminal setup for vt100 is set to wrap or the ansi controls were setting it to wrap. Further the various flavors of VT10X did not always agree. plus over time there were several firmware changes to correct errors that may or may not have had odd effects. General form for wrap was the characters would pole at the end with the cursor set there. If line-wrap were enabled the excess characters for that line would wrap to the next line as they exceed the line length. This was generally true for 80 char lines but not always for 132 char lines and double width (40 char) lines where those were implementation (model) dependent. > If you have a VT100, VT220 or later model (compatibles like Wyse are also of interest) and have a spare moment, I'd be most grateful if you would download and run Be very wary as the setup to the test must be specific. Also the exact model must be known. Much of the behaviors depend on: preset line length (characters per line) (setups screen and control codes.) Preset screen (lines) (or status line enabled) (setup screen) Line wrap enabled (setup screen) Newline/no newline (setup screen) Soft scroll or jump scroll (setup screen) prior ANSI (DEC control codes) VT52, VT100, or VT220 mode So to validate the action that results one must know what the user setup screen has preset and if any other ansi/dec/vt2 control codes have been previously sent. Also if the cursor was first line or last tine of in the mid screen area. IF cursor addressing is in use the cursor position for each case. > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/mattiase/wraptest/master/wraptest.c > > in that terminal, and send me the resulting output. (Redirect stdout to save the report.) > The test program is not comprehensive but would give us a good idea of the rules. > > Current results, right now only from various emulators, are found in > > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/mattiase/wraptest/master/results.txt > Most PC based emulators get it wrong. Most really get it wrong on keyboard to terminal key alignment. They rarely have the setup screen actions for the keyboard mapping. Even the terminals group at DEC and the terminals and printers test group would tend to argue what was the intended action vs what it really did, especially during development. After the Terminals SRM was developed there would be exceptions galore (for example DECMate terminal behavior and the various PCs (Pro, Rainbow, Vaxmate) in terminal emulation mode. FYI when using terminal emulation I defer to VT52 as that is both the simplest to get right and emulate however most keyboard on PCs still have it seriously wrong. Plan B is use a real terminal such as VT100, VT125, VT220, VT320 or Vt340, or the VT1200 as I have those. The most reachable is the VT320 (on my CP/M system) and VT340 (PDP-11/73). They get used as they are smaller than the VT100s I have. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Jan 1 17:25:35 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 18:25:35 -0500 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: References: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> <45366AF4-83CA-48D5-A9B8-1E1AC3E9976A@comcast.net> <586981FA.9060800@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <9a6c8235-b97b-f5be-9fba-deb15791f176@verizon.net> On 01/01/2017 05:38 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I'll put my copy on line. It's 70mb, the mirrors should have it sometime tomorrow. > > On 1/1/17 2:26 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > >> I did see a bunch of DEC STDs sitting on bitsavers but 070 doesn't seem to be one of them. >> > Other standards that apply is DEC-STD-062 internationalization, STD-110 Escape code actions, STD-111 terminal synchronization (Xon-Xoff). Those are available on bitsavers.org. Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jan 2 07:56:16 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2017 13:56:16 +0000 Subject: Viewdata/Teletext Message-ID: Hi folks, Happy new year to all! Is anyone here familiar with the innards of Viewdata? I'm still deep in the bowels of this Executel viewdata phone system and one thing that it should be doing but isn't is puzzling me. The teletext chip is a Plessey MR9735, datasheet here: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/mr9735.pdf It can work in either 'off hours' or 'on hours' meaning effectively 'day' or 'night' mode when there's no broadcast TV signal at night, this is the 80s remember. The surrounding circuitry forces Off Hours by pulling high all the incoming TV signals apart from Line Flyback which is pulled low. The datasheet says: "When the incoming transmission is turned off, (i.e. Goes 'Off-hours'), this is recognised by the [On Hours Detector] after at least 300ms of missing sync. Pulses. An internally generated Composite Sync signal is then switched to the Composite Sync Out pin." Since Sync In is pulled high there are never any negative sync pulses (I've watched this on a logic analyser) so after 300ms Sync Out should become an internally generated pulse, but this doesn't happen and Sync Out remains a steady 5V meaning the TV picture is unsync'd. I know the MR9735 itself is fine as I have a pair of Tandata viewdata terminals which also use this chip in Off Hours mode and I can swap them around. The chip itself is receiving a steady 6MHz clock to pin 21 and the clock divider outputs at pins 20 and 19 are working. Any clues? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Jan 2 08:17:38 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 14:17:38 +0000 Subject: Viewdata/Teletext In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Happy new year to all! > > Is anyone here familiar with the innards of Viewdata? I'm still deep in the Yes, and teletext. But not this chip.... > bowels of this Executel viewdata phone system and one thing that it should > be doing but isn't is puzzling me. > > The teletext chip is a Plessey MR9735, datasheet here: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/mr9735.pdf > > It can work in either 'off hours' or 'on hours' meaning effectively 'day' or > 'night' mode when there's no broadcast TV signal at night, this is the 80s > remember. That was quite common. I remember pins in one of the Philips chipsets with names like 'After Hours Sync'. Basically if there is a television signal it will be synced to it (so you can, for example, overlay teletext on a normal picture -- subtitles, etc), if there isn't then it can run stand-alone as a display device. > > The surrounding circuitry forces Off Hours by pulling high all the incoming > TV signals apart from Line Flyback which is pulled low. The datasheet says: > "When the incoming transmission is turned off, (i.e. Goes 'Off-hours'), this > is recognised by the [On Hours Detector] after at least 300ms of missing > sync. Pulses. An internally generated Composite Sync signal is then switched > to the Composite Sync Out pin." > > Since Sync In is pulled high there are never any negative sync pulses (I've > watched this on a logic analyser) so after 300ms Sync Out should become an > internally generated pulse, but this doesn't happen and Sync Out remains a > steady 5V meaning the TV picture is unsync'd. > > I know the MR9735 itself is fine as I have a pair of Tandata viewdata > terminals which also use this chip in Off Hours mode and I can swap them > around. The chip itself is receiving a steady 6MHz clock to pin 21 and the > clock divider outputs at pins 20 and 19 are working. Argh!. My first thoughts were 'defective chip' (but it isn't), 'missing master clock' (but you have checked that) and 'Needs to be programmed for out-of-hours sync' (Some Philips ICs had a bit in one of the internal registers for this, this one doesn't that I can see). I assume both power supplies are present and correct at the chip? -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jan 2 09:18:51 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2017 15:18:51 +0000 Subject: Viewdata/Teletext In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 02/01/2017 14:17, "Tony Duell" wrote: > That was quite common. I remember pins in one of the Philips chipsets > with names like 'After Hours Sync'. Basically if there is a television signal > it will be synced to it (so you can, for example, overlay teletext on a > normal picture -- subtitles, etc), if there isn't then it can run stand-alone > as a display device. Yep, this is how the Tandata terminals work too. >> >> The surrounding circuitry forces Off Hours by pulling high all the incoming >> TV signals apart from Line Flyback which is pulled low. The datasheet says: >> "When the incoming transmission is turned off, (i.e. Goes 'Off-hours'), this >> is recognised by the [On Hours Detector] after at least 300ms of missing >> sync. Pulses. An internally generated Composite Sync signal is then switched >> to the Composite Sync Out pin." >> >> Since Sync In is pulled high there are never any negative sync pulses (I've >> watched this on a logic analyser) so after 300ms Sync Out should become an >> internally generated pulse, but this doesn't happen and Sync Out remains a >> steady 5V meaning the TV picture is unsync'd. >> >> I know the MR9735 itself is fine as I have a pair of Tandata viewdata >> terminals which also use this chip in Off Hours mode and I can swap them >> around. The chip itself is receiving a steady 6MHz clock to pin 21 and the >> clock divider outputs at pins 20 and 19 are working. > > Argh!. My first thoughts were 'defective chip' (but it isn't), > 'missing master clock' > (but you have checked that) and 'Needs to be programmed for out-of-hours > sync' (Some Philips ICs had a bit in one of the internal registers for > this, this > one doesn't that I can see). I assume both power supplies are present > and correct at the chip? Yep, 12V at pin 40 and 5V at pin 39, 0V on pin 1. I haven't checked current output but the PSU I'm using normally runs a pair of 5.25" floppy drives. This PSU is also identical to the one in the Executel that I've not fixed yet (Astec AC8151). I've just tried putting the chip on a breadboard with the same pins pulled high/low and still get nothing at sync out, though admittedly the arduino providing the clock source is only putting out a 4mhz signal so I'll change that. Dividers are still working. Hm, I've just remembered there's a 74LS240N buffer between the CPU and data pins on the MR9735 that I've not tested yet, need to make sure the outputs match the inputs. I guess even with nothing to display there should still be a sync out though. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 2 09:45:53 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 10:45:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought Message-ID: <20170102154553.DA8D618C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Antonio Carlini > My scan is ~400MB (and 1090 pages long!) Even at 1K pages, it shouldn't be anything like that big, if scanned using the most space-efficient encoding. For _manuals_, scan at 300 dpi with Black+White encoding (i.e. 1 bit per pixel), then store as TIFFs with CCITT Group 4 (fax) compression. That does a typical page of text in ~45KB or so. So you're about an order of magnitude high.... (For engineering drawings, basically the same, except scan at 600 dpi, to capture all the small characters such as pinouts.) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 2 09:48:17 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 10:48:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels Message-ID: <20170102154817.CCF2E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Lancashire > To convert from Muncell to RGB Interesting. For one colour (D.C. Blue), listed on Charles' page as Munsell 5PB 3/10, that page gives it as 'outside sRGB gamut', whereas the page you list gives it as sRGB [0,72,145]. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 2 10:15:36 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 11:15:36 -0500 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: <9a6c8235-b97b-f5be-9fba-deb15791f176@verizon.net> References: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> <45366AF4-83CA-48D5-A9B8-1E1AC3E9976A@comcast.net> <586981FA.9060800@ntlworld.com> <9a6c8235-b97b-f5be-9fba-deb15791f176@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E3A6719-A10F-4F85-82A7-80CE324487B2@comcast.net> > On Jan 1, 2017, at 6:25 PM, allison wrote: > > On 01/01/2017 05:38 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I'll put my copy on line. It's 70mb, the mirrors should have it sometime tomorrow. >> >> On 1/1/17 2:26 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: >> >>> I did see a bunch of DEC STDs sitting on bitsavers but 070 doesn't seem to be one of them. >>> >> > Other standards that apply is DEC-STD-062 internationalization, STD-110 > Escape code actions, STD-111 terminal synchronization (Xon-Xoff). Note that DEC Std 110 (in spite of the higher number) is much older. It describes, very briefly, the "VT50" escape sequences, and it also mentions the VT05 control codes (which are not escape sequences). paul From mattiase at acm.org Mon Jan 2 10:32:53 2017 From: mattiase at acm.org (=?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?=) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 17:32:53 +0100 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: References: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> <45366AF4-83CA-48D5-A9B8-1E1AC3E9976A@comcast.net> <586981FA.9060800@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: 1 jan. 2017 kl. 23.38 skrev Al Kossow : > > I'll put my copy on line. It's 70mb, the mirrors should have it sometime tomorrow. Many thanks! Very interesting reading; the information I was looking for is on page D-13. While the document makes the architectural intent reasonably clear, it also says: It should be noted that existing products vary widely in their handling of the end-of-line condition in regards to resetting the Last Column Flag. For that reason, I would still be very grateful if someone with an actual VT100 or later would run the previously mentioned test program at https://raw.githubusercontent.com/mattiase/wraptest/master/wraptest.c. It should build on any Posix system and should be easy to adapt in any case. I'll summarise any contributions. From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Jan 2 10:53:24 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 08:53:24 -0800 Subject: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels In-Reply-To: <20170102154817.CCF2E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170102154817.CCF2E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Here is a site that you can give it RGB and it will give the closest Pantone http://rgb.to/0,72,145 On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 7:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Pete Lancashire > > > To convert from Muncell to RGB > > Interesting. For one colour (D.C. Blue), listed on Charles' page as Munsell > 5PB 3/10, that page gives it as 'outside sRGB gamut', whereas the page you > list gives it as sRGB [0,72,145]. > > Noel > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 2 11:47:17 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2017 11:47:17 -0600 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <1646865906.4042591.1483073092591.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1646865906.4042591.1483073092591@mail.yahoo.com> <58668323.1080706@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <586A9225.1090206@pico-systems.com> On 01/02/2017 02:39 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Fri, 30 Dec 2016, Jon Elson wrote: >> Is your drum in good condition? Ours was full of dust, >> and 3 tracks had been ground down to the brass due to >> dust packing under the heads. > > You can relocate bad tracks as there are a couple of spare > tracks. And the drum is made of aluminium, not brass. > Well, I am very certain that there was brass showing through where the oxide had been rubbed through. (For reference, we were talking about my experiences with a Bendix G-15, not an LGP-30.) So, I think the G-15 drum had a brass sleeve that might have been shrunk onto the aluminum casting. The brass would not have holes, which the aluminum casting could have had (But I'm just guessing about why they made it that way.) Jon From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 2 12:34:52 2017 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2017 18:34:52 +0000 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: <20170102154553.DA8D618C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170102154553.DA8D618C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <586A9D4C.3060306@ntlworld.com> On 02/01/17 15:45, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Even at 1K pages, it shouldn't be anything like that big, if scanned using > the most space-efficient encoding. > > For _manuals_, scan at 300 dpi with Black+White encoding (i.e. 1 bit per > pixel), then store as TIFFs with CCITT Group 4 (fax) compression. That does a > typical page of text in ~45KB or so. So you're about an order of magnitude > high.... > This manual (which is Rev C 14-APR-1989, and so 2 years older than the one Al has made available) was scanned in 2002. Back then I had access to a Lexmark something or other. The only thing I'm certain of is that it was scanned at 600x600 dpi, B&W. I can't see the point in dropping to 300 dpi for B&W ... 400MB will be the average size of a two page CV written in Word 20 years from now :-) For those who care, it's easier to convert from 600dpi to 300dpi than the reverse. Back then I would use Adobe to convert to CCITT G4 encoded TIFF and repackage as PDF. (The current scanner does that for me, or so it seemingly claims). Maybe I forgot that step for this one. I do know that this one (and the VAXBI STD) both had pages that were sticking together by the time they came to me, so I had to separate them all manually before scanning. They are probably nowhere near as clean as a typical manual. Picking on a few random samples and comparing to what I'm getting out of the current scanner I can use, I see a range from 240KB/page to 390KB/page. So I don't think I missed out a step after all: I think it's in line with what I generally see coming out of the scanner(s). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From chd at chdickman.com Mon Jan 2 13:29:41 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 14:29:41 -0500 Subject: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels In-Reply-To: <20170102154817.CCF2E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170102154817.CCF2E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Pete Lancashire > > > To convert from Muncell to RGB > > Interesting. For one colour (D.C. Blue), listed on Charles' page as Munsell > 5PB 3/10, that page gives it as 'outside sRGB gamut', whereas the page you > list gives it as sRGB [0,72,145]. Any translation to sRGB with a 0 or 255, is potentially suspect. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 2 13:38:55 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 14:38:55 -0500 Subject: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels In-Reply-To: References: <20170102154817.CCF2E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 2, 2017, at 11:53 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > Here is a site that you can give it RGB and it will give the closest Pantone > > http://rgb.to/0,72,145 Then again, there are plenty of Pantone colors that have no RGB equivalent... paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 2 13:57:39 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 11:57:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels In-Reply-To: References: <20170102154817.CCF2E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > Then again, there are plenty of Pantone colors that have no RGB equivalent... For printing banner panels, would CMYK be a better fit than sRGB? Are there no records of what DEC specified to their sub-contractors? I learned the basics half a century ago, with "Color As Seen And Photographed", "Kodak Color Dataguide", and "Kodak Color Darkroom Dataguide", and then taught myself how to do color darkroom work. Now, I suddenly realize that I am a half century out of touch with the technology! I find this fascinating, and see an enormous amount of fun trying to catch up! From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 2 14:09:11 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 15:09:11 -0500 Subject: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels In-Reply-To: References: <20170102154817.CCF2E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3F4DD877-1167-414A-AE06-96486926138E@comcast.net> > On Jan 2, 2017, at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Then again, there are plenty of Pantone colors that have no RGB equivalent... > > For printing banner panels, would CMYK be a better fit than sRGB? > Are there no records of what DEC specified to their sub-contractors? Basic printing is done with CMYK. But there are complications: it matters what the paper (or other substrate) is that you're printing on. For example, CMYK printed on newsprint has a smaller gamut than CMYK printed on coated paper (as used in magazines). Printing of labels and the like often is done with "spot colors" -- either instead of, or in addition to, the 4 basic "process colors" of CMYK. If you look at product packaging cartons, you'll often see color marks on a hidden spot, say the bottom flaps of the box, and often more than four colors are shown. The excess would be spot colors. For example, a package of chocolate ice cream I just opened has a chocolate brown spot color on it to make that part of the image really stand out. Some high end ink jet printers (Epson comes to mind) have more than 4 colors for a wider gamut and more accurate color rendering. They may also have gray inks for increased grayscale range. Company logos are often Pantone colors, and may be printed in spot color on business cards and the like for better appearance. Or they may be out of CMYK gamut and need spot color for that reason. Even more esoteric is when a company has a custom color made up, not found in the Pantone book. The company I work now did that a few years ago for their logo. In all these cases, CMYK and RGB approximations can be had, but those may not be all that close. paul From chd at chdickman.com Mon Jan 2 14:12:38 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 15:12:38 -0500 Subject: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels In-Reply-To: References: <20170102154817.CCF2E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Then again, there are plenty of Pantone colors that have no RGB >> equivalent... > > > For printing banner panels, would CMYK be a better fit than sRGB? > Are there no records of what DEC specified to their sub-contractors? My motivation was for no other reason than to see what the colors looked like on a web page. The page shows what DEC used and that was Munsell and/or Ostwald notation along with one Pantone and a couple paint manufacturers and colors. That is all documented in DEC Std092. There are many other color part numbers documented there, but most are references to OEM customer colors. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Jan 2 14:53:44 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 21:53:44 +0100 Subject: Banner Panels In-Reply-To: References: <20161230072047.GI5974@Update.UU.SE> <0c5c49dc-1c6c-0827-1ed6-042323c84e18@btinternet.com> <20161230100425.GL5974@Update.UU.SE> <20161231075625.GO5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20170102205344.GP5974@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Jan 01, 2017 at 12:13:05PM +0000, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 31/12/2016 07:56, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 11:04:26AM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >>I'll provide examples of some of these. Others can be found online. > >Here are three panels I could easily get to: > > > >http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/front_paneler/headers/ > > > >/P > These are great. Camera less than 1% spherical aberration. > Rod It's just my Nexus 5X :) /P > > -- > PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i > Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 2 15:23:46 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 13:23:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels In-Reply-To: References: <20170102154817.CCF2E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jan 2017, Charles Dickman wrote: > My motivation was for no other reason than to see what the colors > looked like on a web page. > > The page shows what DEC used and that was Munsell and/or Ostwald > notation along with one Pantone and a couple paint manufacturers and > colors. That is all documented in DEC Std092. There are many other > color part numbers documented there, but most are references to OEM > customer colors. Thank you! That explains the discussion, and makes perfect sense. I finally got around to looking at your page. It is superb! (And, The Red Car is a glorious memory of wonderful times) It is especially amazing that the red pigment has held up so well! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jan 2 21:22:19 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 19:22:19 -0800 Subject: National Semiconductor IMP mini Message-ID: <16252162-6ede-3cf6-9288-da1bfee06fff@jwsss.com> This system looks pretty interesting, though pricey. I'm thinking it is going to be a development machine as all the switches and display would not probably have been on a production machine. I don't think National made many minicomputer format machines, in their history, someone correct me. That might make this pretty rare on that front as well. thanks Jim Beautiful-1974-NATIONAL-SEMICONDUCTOR-COMPUTER-model-imp-16p/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/252700755919 From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jan 2 21:37:44 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 19:37:44 -0800 Subject: National Semiconductor IMP mini In-Reply-To: <16252162-6ede-3cf6-9288-da1bfee06fff@jwsss.com> References: <16252162-6ede-3cf6-9288-da1bfee06fff@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 1/2/17 7:22 PM, jim stephens wrote: > This system looks pretty interesting, though pricey. I'm thinking it > is going to be a development machine as all the switches and display > would not probably have been on a production machine. > > I don't think National made many minicomputer format machines, in > their history, someone correct me. That might make this pretty rare > on that front as well. > > thanks > Jim > > Beautiful-1974-NATIONAL-SEMICONDUCTOR-COMPUTER-model-imp-16p/ > http://www.ebay.com/itm/252700755919 > Yeah, it's pretty cool but I don't think the seller has reasonable expectations for actually selling it -- the auction started (I believe) at $1500 (which may have been a reasonable price), then the seller raised it to $2500, now it's at $3500 (which is fairly outrageous, in my opinion). I'm not sure what his strategy is. Bitsavers has manuals (of course...) - Josh From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Jan 2 21:58:25 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2017 19:58:25 -0800 Subject: National Semiconductor IMP mini Message-ID: -------- Original message -------- From: Josh Dersch Date: 2017-01-02 7:37 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: National Semiconductor IMP mini On 1/2/17 7:22 PM, jim stephens wrote: > This system looks pretty interesting, though pricey. I'm thinking it > is going to be a development machine as all the switches and display > would not probably have been on a production machine. > > I don't think National made many minicomputer format machines, in > their history, someone correct me.? That might make this pretty rare > on that front as well. > > thanks > Jim > > Beautiful-1974-NATIONAL-SEMICONDUCTOR-COMPUTER-model-imp-16p/ > http://www.ebay.com/itm/252700755919 > Yeah, it's pretty cool but I don't think the seller has reasonable expectations for actually selling it -- the auction started (I believe) at $1500 (which may have been a reasonable price), then the seller raised it to $2500, now it's at $3500 (which is fairly outrageous, in my >opinion).? I'm not sure what his strategy is. >Bitsavers has manuals (of course...) >- Josh I think he figured toggle switches and lights = $$$$. ?He might be correct, given the obscene money I've seen laid out just for a PDP 8/e faceplate. You never know a) what will motivate a collector and b) when just the right collector for a given item will show up. ?Every day I thank my lucky stars they didn't, for whatever reason, show up for my Mark-8 boards. From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jan 2 22:08:54 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 20:08:54 -0800 Subject: National Semiconductor IMP mini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <857bca9c-3b92-4d77-c036-3cdbd9bf9268@gmail.com> On 1/2/17 7:58 PM, Brad H wrote: > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Josh Dersch > Date: 2017-01-02 7:37 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: National Semiconductor IMP mini > > > On 1/2/17 7:22 PM, jim stephens wrote: >> This system looks pretty interesting, though pricey. I'm thinking it >> is going to be a development machine as all the switches and display >> would not probably have been on a production machine. >> >> I don't think National made many minicomputer format machines, in >> their history, someone correct me. That might make this pretty rare >> on that front as well. >> >> thanks >> Jim >> >> Beautiful-1974-NATIONAL-SEMICONDUCTOR-COMPUTER-model-imp-16p/ >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/252700755919 >> > Yeah, it's pretty cool but I don't think the seller has reasonable > expectations for actually selling it -- the auction started (I believe) > at $1500 (which may have been a reasonable price), then the seller > raised it to $2500, now it's at $3500 (which is fairly outrageous, in my >> opinion). I'm not sure what his strategy is. >> Bitsavers has manuals (of course...) >> - Josh > I think he figured toggle switches and lights = $$$$. He might be correct, given the obscene money I've seen laid out just for a PDP 8/e faceplate. You never know a) what will motivate a collector and b) when just the right collector for a given item will show up. Every day I thank my lucky stars they didn't, for whatever reason, show up for my Mark-8 boards. With the "No shipping cash on pickup" proviso the seller provides, I feel fairly certain no one's biting. But I've been surprised before... - Josh From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jan 2 22:15:05 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:15:05 -0500 Subject: National Semiconductor IMP mini In-Reply-To: <857bca9c-3b92-4d77-c036-3cdbd9bf9268@gmail.com> References: <857bca9c-3b92-4d77-c036-3cdbd9bf9268@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1596289a83f-60e5-312ec@webprd-a52.mail.aol.com> I have manual. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Monday, January 2, 2017 Josh Dersch wrote: On 1/2/17 7:58 PM, Brad H wrote: > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Josh Dersch > Date: 2017-01-02 7:37 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: National Semiconductor IMP mini > > > On 1/2/17 7:22 PM, jim stephens wrote: >> This system looks pretty interesting, though pricey. I'm thinking it >> is going to be a development machine as all the switches and display >> would not probably have been on a production machine. >> >> I don't think National made many minicomputer format machines, in >> their history, someone correct me. That might make this pretty rare >> on that front as well. >> >> thanks >> Jim >> >> Beautiful-1974-NATIONAL-SEMICONDUCTOR-COMPUTER-model-imp-16p/ >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/252700755919 >> > Yeah, it's pretty cool but I don't think the seller has reasonable > expectations for actually selling it -- the auction started (I believe) > at $1500 (which may have been a reasonable price), then the seller > raised it to $2500, now it's at $3500 (which is fairly outrageous, in my >> opinion). I'm not sure what his strategy is. >> Bitsavers has manuals (of course...) >> - Josh > I think he figured toggle switches and lights = $$$$. He might be correct, given the obscene money I've seen laid out just for a PDP 8/e faceplate. You never know a) what will motivate a collector and b) when just the right collector for a given item will show up. Every day I thank my lucky stars they didn't, for whatever reason, show up for my Mark-8 boards. With the "No shipping cash on pickup" proviso the seller provides, I feel fairly certain no one's biting. But I've been surprised before... - Josh From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jan 2 22:24:20 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 20:24:20 -0800 Subject: National Semiconductor IMP mini In-Reply-To: <857bca9c-3b92-4d77-c036-3cdbd9bf9268@gmail.com> References: <857bca9c-3b92-4d77-c036-3cdbd9bf9268@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4fe0fc20-642b-054a-a865-694edc9ac236@jwsss.com> On 1/2/2017 8:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 1/2/17 7:58 PM, Brad H wrote: > >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Josh Dersch >> Date: 2017-01-02 7:37 PM (GMT-08:00) >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: Re: National Semiconductor IMP mini >> >> >> On 1/2/17 7:22 PM, jim stephens wrote: >>> This system looks pretty interesting, though pricey. I'm thinking it >>> is going to be a development machine as all the switches and display >>> would not probably have been on a production machine. >>> >>> I don't think National made many minicomputer format machines, in >>> their history, someone correct me. That might make this pretty rare >>> on that front as well. >>> >>> thanks >>> Jim >>> >>> Beautiful-1974-NATIONAL-SEMICONDUCTOR-COMPUTER-model-imp-16p/ >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/252700755919 >>> >> Yeah, it's pretty cool but I don't think the seller has reasonable >> expectations for actually selling it -- the auction started (I believe) >> at $1500 (which may have been a reasonable price), then the seller >> raised it to $2500, now it's at $3500 (which is fairly outrageous, in my >>> opinion). I'm not sure what his strategy is. >>> Bitsavers has manuals (of course...) >>> - Josh >> I think he figured toggle switches and lights = $$$$. He might be >> correct, given the obscene money I've seen laid out just for a PDP >> 8/e faceplate. You never know a) what will motivate a collector and >> b) when just the right collector for a given item will show up. >> Every day I thank my lucky stars they didn't, for whatever reason, >> show up for my Mark-8 boards. > > With the "No shipping cash on pickup" proviso the seller provides, I > feel fairly certain no one's biting. But I've been surprised before... > > - Josh I also passed on a PDP8/M he had, which was quite rangy then posted this auction. I had not come across the listing from before. The "Oh it must be worth a fortune", even canceling an auction 2 weeks ago on me. I didn't think to pay for it on auction closing, since I'd been sniping it, or I could have really reamed the seller. I have not gotten a straight response from them since then. I would not have noted this other than what i think is a rarity. Sad that the guy is holding it hostage from someone who could get hold of it and run it. I think there is one in the CHM collection from what i was told when I checked on it before sharing here, so there is one preserved. However would be interesting to see one in such as Josh's or Ian's hands running. (or many others, just share a lot with them and they are lighting blink'n lights more than me right now). thanks Jim From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Jan 2 22:28:58 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:28:58 -0500 Subject: National Semiconductor IMP mini Message-ID: <57cce9.6e1d106a.459c828a@aol.com> SMECC's book is on 16 c talks about adding front panel and display etc... 16 sw and 16 led book dated jan 74 16c seems to designate the card maybe 16 b is inclusive of PS an add on panel and case.. also have a 8C book too. ED# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) Odd I was just going though a crate 3 hours ago... what are the odds In a message dated 1/2/2017 9:15:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, couryhouse at aol.com writes: I have manual. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail ____________________________________ On Monday, January 2, 2017 Josh Dersch wrote: On 1/2/17 7:58 PM, Brad H wrote: > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Josh Dersch > Date: 2017-01-02 7:37 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: National Semiconductor IMP mini > > > On 1/2/17 7:22 PM, jim stephens wrote: >> This system looks pretty interesting, though pricey. I'm thinking it >> is going to be a development machine as all the switches and display >> would not probably have been on a production machine. >> >> I don't think National made many minicomputer format machines, in >> their history, someone correct me. That might make this pretty rare >> on that front as well. >> >> thanks >> Jim >> >> Beautiful-1974-NATIONAL-SEMICONDUCTOR-COMPUTER-model-imp-16p/ >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/252700755919 >> > Yeah, it's pretty cool but I don't think the seller has reasonable > expectations for actually selling it -- the auction started (I believe) > at $1500 (which may have been a reasonable price), then the seller > raised it to $2500, now it's at $3500 (which is fairly outrageous, in my >> opinion). I'm not sure what his strategy is. >> Bitsavers has manuals (of course...) >> - Josh > I think he figured toggle switches and lights = $$$$. He might be correct, given the obscene money I've seen laid out just for a PDP 8/e faceplate. You never know a) what will motivate a collector and b) when just the right collector for a given item will show up. Every day I thank my lucky stars they didn't, for whatever reason, show up for my Mark-8 boards. With the "No shipping cash on pickup" proviso the seller provides, I feel fairly certain no one's biting. But I've been surprised before... - Josh From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Jan 2 22:49:09 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:49:09 -0500 Subject: National Semiconductor IMP mini Message-ID: <5823ac.39d885f.459c8745@aol.com> Bitsavers http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/national/imp/4200021C_IMP16C_App_Jan74.pdf is same manual.. the 16 P is the machine in ebay. yea a beauty. Ed# In a message dated 1/2/2017 9:28:59 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, COURYHOUSE at aol.com writes: SMECC's book is on 16 c talks about adding front panel and display etc... 16 sw and 16 led book dated jan 74 16c seems to designate the card maybe 16 b is inclusive of PS an add on panel and case.. also have a 8C book too. ED# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) Odd I was just going though a crate 3 hours ago... what are the odds In a message dated 1/2/2017 9:15:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, couryhouse at aol.com writes: I have manual. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail ____________________________________ On Monday, January 2, 2017 Josh Dersch wrote: On 1/2/17 7:58 PM, Brad H wrote: > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Josh Dersch > Date: 2017-01-02 7:37 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: National Semiconductor IMP mini > > > On 1/2/17 7:22 PM, jim stephens wrote: >> This system looks pretty interesting, though pricey. I'm thinking it >> is going to be a development machine as all the switches and display >> would not probably have been on a production machine. >> >> I don't think National made many minicomputer format machines, in >> their history, someone correct me. That might make this pretty rare >> on that front as well. >> >> thanks >> Jim >> >> Beautiful-1974-NATIONAL-SEMICONDUCTOR-COMPUTER-model-imp-16p/ >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/252700755919 >> > Yeah, it's pretty cool but I don't think the seller has reasonable > expectations for actually selling it -- the auction started (I believe) > at $1500 (which may have been a reasonable price), then the seller > raised it to $2500, now it's at $3500 (which is fairly outrageous, in my >> opinion). I'm not sure what his strategy is. >> Bitsavers has manuals (of course...) >> - Josh > I think he figured toggle switches and lights = $$$$. He might be correct, given the obscene money I've seen laid out just for a PDP 8/e faceplate. You never know a) what will motivate a collector and b) when just the right collector for a given item will show up. Every day I thank my lucky stars they didn't, for whatever reason, show up for my Mark-8 boards. With the "No shipping cash on pickup" proviso the seller provides, I feel fairly certain no one's biting. But I've been surprised before... - Josh From lars at nocrew.org Tue Jan 3 00:33:57 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 07:33:57 +0100 Subject: PDP-10 Foonex Message-ID: <86o9zolkiy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Appeared here: http://github.com/PDP-10/FOONEX From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 00:58:54 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 22:58:54 -0800 Subject: Fix for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus bootstrap on CMD SCSI controllers Message-ID: <2f665e0c-acdb-4c16-e919-1d2a63c480f0@gmail.com> Hi all -- Thought I'd share this fix with you all just in case someone in the future might make use of it. Long story short: Got myself a CMD 710/M UNIBUS SCSI controller with the intent to use it in my VAX-11/750, running 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. Unfortunately it won't boot (it hangs shortly after "loading boot" is printed to the console). VMS boots, NetBSD > 1.6 or so boots, Ultrix boots, but no luck with 4.3BSD. I spent some time adding some debug spew to the bootstrap (on SIMH) and testing (on the 750), and the hang is inside udcmd() in sys/vaxstand/uda.c. I then stumbled on this usenet post: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.sys.pdp11/61LZNTo9Dgg/Q6dI9om_LIEJ Which indicates a similar problem with a Viking controller on a different 4.3BSD variant. The code in Quasijarus is a bit different, but the cause is the same. The fix is: Change line 155 of sys/vaxstand/uda.c from: if(u->uda_ca.ca_rspint ==0) to: if(u->uda_ca.ca_rspdc & MSCP_OWN) Rebuild, and re-run disklabel to replace the bootstrap. Hope that helps someone else someday... - Josh From rwiker at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 01:01:47 2017 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 08:01:47 +0100 Subject: National Semiconductor IMP mini In-Reply-To: <4fe0fc20-642b-054a-a865-694edc9ac236@jwsss.com> References: <857bca9c-3b92-4d77-c036-3cdbd9bf9268@gmail.com> <4fe0fc20-642b-054a-a865-694edc9ac236@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I see he also has an Apple II that he wants $2000 for --- it's listed as "NON WORKING ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS FROM EXTREME AGE", and from date codes and copyright markings it appears to be far from original. In fact, the motherboard seems to be a Rev 7 RFI motherboard, and the processor is (I think) from 1985. If that one is worth $2000, my Apple IIs must be worth at least $6000 each :-) On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 5:24 AM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 1/2/2017 8:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 1/2/17 7:58 PM, Brad H wrote: >> >> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Josh Dersch >>> Date: 2017-01-02 7:37 PM (GMT-08:00) >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >>> Subject: Re: National Semiconductor IMP mini >>> >>> >>> On 1/2/17 7:22 PM, jim stephens wrote: >>> >>>> This system looks pretty interesting, though pricey. I'm thinking it >>>> is going to be a development machine as all the switches and display >>>> would not probably have been on a production machine. >>>> >>>> I don't think National made many minicomputer format machines, in >>>> their history, someone correct me. That might make this pretty rare >>>> on that front as well. >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> Beautiful-1974-NATIONAL-SEMICONDUCTOR-COMPUTER-model-imp-16p/ >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/252700755919 >>>> >>>> Yeah, it's pretty cool but I don't think the seller has reasonable >>> expectations for actually selling it -- the auction started (I believe) >>> at $1500 (which may have been a reasonable price), then the seller >>> raised it to $2500, now it's at $3500 (which is fairly outrageous, in my >>> >>>> opinion). I'm not sure what his strategy is. >>>> Bitsavers has manuals (of course...) >>>> - Josh >>>> >>> I think he figured toggle switches and lights = $$$$. He might be >>> correct, given the obscene money I've seen laid out just for a PDP 8/e >>> faceplate. You never know a) what will motivate a collector and b) when >>> just the right collector for a given item will show up. Every day I thank >>> my lucky stars they didn't, for whatever reason, show up for my Mark-8 >>> boards. >>> >> >> With the "No shipping cash on pickup" proviso the seller provides, I feel >> fairly certain no one's biting. But I've been surprised before... >> >> - Josh >> > > I also passed on a PDP8/M he had, which was quite rangy then posted this > auction. I had not come across the listing from before. > > The "Oh it must be worth a fortune", even canceling an auction 2 weeks ago > on me. I didn't think to pay for it on auction closing, since I'd been > sniping it, or I could have really reamed the seller. I have not gotten a > straight response from them since then. > > I would not have noted this other than what i think is a rarity. Sad that > the guy is holding it hostage from someone who could get hold of it and run > it. I think there is one in the CHM collection from what i was told when I > checked on it before sharing here, so there is one preserved. However > would be interesting to see one in such as Josh's or Ian's hands running. > (or many others, just share a lot with them and they are lighting blink'n > lights more than me right now). > > thanks > Jim > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Jan 3 01:26:20 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2017 23:26:20 -0800 Subject: National Semiconductor IMP mini Message-ID: <056lkbel28a484oldvl40jfw.1483428177559@email.android.com> -------- Original message -------- From: Raymond Wiker Date: 2017-01-02 11:01 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: National Semiconductor IMP mini I see he also has an Apple II that he wants $2000 for --- it's listed as "NON WORKING ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS FROM EXTREME AGE", and from date codes and copyright markings it appears to be far from original. In fact, the motherboard seems to be a Rev 7 RFI motherboard, and the processor is (I think) from 1985. If that one is worth $2000, my Apple IIs must be worth at least $6000 each :-) On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 5:24 AM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 1/2/2017 8:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 1/2/17 7:58 PM, Brad H wrote: >> >> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Josh Dersch >>> Date: 2017-01-02? 7:37 PM? (GMT-08:00) >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >>> Subject: Re: National Semiconductor IMP mini >>> >>> >>> On 1/2/17 7:22 PM, jim stephens wrote: >>> >>>> This system looks pretty interesting, though pricey. I'm thinking it >>>> is going to be a development machine as all the switches and display >>>> would not probably have been on a production machine. >>>> >>>> I don't think National made many minicomputer format machines, in >>>> their history, someone correct me.? That might make this pretty rare >>>> on that front as well. >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> Beautiful-1974-NATIONAL-SEMICONDUCTOR-COMPUTER-model-imp-16p/ >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/252700755919 >>>> >>>> Yeah, it's pretty cool but I don't think the seller has reasonable >>> expectations for actually selling it -- the auction started (I believe) >>> at $1500 (which may have been a reasonable price), then the seller >>> raised it to $2500, now it's at $3500 (which is fairly outrageous, in my >>> >>>> opinion).? I'm not sure what his strategy is. >>>> Bitsavers has manuals (of course...) >>>> - Josh >>>> >>> I think he figured toggle switches and lights = $$$$.? He might be >>> correct, given the obscene money I've seen laid out just for a PDP 8/e >>> faceplate. You never know a) what will motivate a collector and b) when >>> just the right collector for a given item will show up.? Every day I thank >>> my lucky stars they didn't, for whatever reason, show up for my Mark-8 >>> boards. >>> >> >> With the "No shipping cash on pickup" proviso the seller provides, I feel >> fairly certain no one's biting.? But I've been surprised before... >> >> - Josh >> > > I also passed on a PDP8/M he had, which was quite rangy then posted this > auction.? I had not come across the listing from before. > > The "Oh it must be worth a fortune", even canceling an auction 2 weeks ago > on me.? I didn't think to pay for it on auction closing, since I'd been > sniping it, or I could have really reamed the seller.? I have not gotten a > straight response from them since then. > > I would not have noted this other than what i think is a rarity. Sad that > the guy is holding it hostage from someone who could get hold of it and run > it.? I think there is one in the CHM collection from what i was told when I > checked on it before sharing here, so there is one preserved.? However > would be interesting to see one in such as Josh's or Ian's hands running. > (or many others, just share a lot with them and they are lighting blink'n > lights more than me right now). > > thanks > Jim > > I brought the RFI thing up with him. ?No response. ?There is a legit Rev 1 there too asking $3500. ?I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that interesting anymore, personally. ?I think even the legit guy would struggle to get much above $1500. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 3 02:09:36 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 00:09:36 -0800 Subject: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any) In-Reply-To: <056lkbel28a484oldvl40jfw.1483428177559@email.android.com> References: <056lkbel28a484oldvl40jfw.1483428177559@email.android.com> Message-ID: <239bff03-7be9-19c9-fa51-a0a9077f3a40@jwsss.com> On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote: > I brought the RFI thing up with him. No response. There is a legit Rev 1 there too asking $3500. I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that interesting anymore, personally. I think even the legit guy would struggle to get much above $1500. The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed motherboards now for $1500 (might not work noted). I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure why there would be any interest. I've got one I bought with the original packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is rare for my collecting, but I don't know what makes any Apple 2 like that collectible. As in why are they collectible with low serials / part numbers. is there any documentation as to when they were made with those numbers that would make them significant? The numbers made as Raymond said would make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think unless they have some other significance. just curious. thanks Jim From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 02:20:47 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 00:20:47 -0800 Subject: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any) In-Reply-To: <239bff03-7be9-19c9-fa51-a0a9077f3a40@jwsss.com> References: <056lkbel28a484oldvl40jfw.1483428177559@email.android.com> <239bff03-7be9-19c9-fa51-a0a9077f3a40@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4c02bc1e-6bca-9fd8-8193-f8dd6b98344d@gmail.com> On 1/3/17 12:09 AM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote: >> I brought the RFI thing up with him. No response. There is a legit >> Rev 1 there too asking $3500. I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 >> that interesting anymore, personally. I think even the legit guy >> would struggle to get much above $1500. > The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed > motherboards now for $1500 (might not work noted). > > I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure > why there would be any interest. I've got one I bought with the > original packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is > rare for my collecting, but I don't know what makes any Apple 2 like > that collectible. As in why are they collectible with low serials / > part numbers. Apple/Jobs fetishists. They'll never own an Apple I, so they want the next best thing -- an Apple II with a really low serial number. S/N 25 recently sold for just under $15k. The early revs are not really all that different than the later ones (Rev 0. has color fringing on text, Rev 1. removed the (tiny) prototyping area, after that the revisional differences get even more mundane). If you want an Apple II to play with (as opposed to worshiping), a II+ will do the job, is nearly identical to a straight-II, and no one seems to care too much about them so they're still cheap. It seems (from watching eBay over the past few years) that S/N's less than about 9K tend to go for more ($1000+), and the closer you get to #1 the crazier it gets, obviously... - Josh > > is there any documentation as to when they were made with those > numbers that would make them significant? The numbers made as Raymond > said would make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think > unless they have some other significance. > > just curious. > thanks > Jim > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Jan 3 02:21:02 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 03:21:02 -0500 Subject: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any) Message-ID: <5b5e07.5025dc64.459cb8ee@aol.com> In a message dated 1/3/2017 1:09:50 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwsmail at jwsss.com writes: On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote: > I brought the RFI thing up with him. No response. There is a legit Rev 1 there too asking $3500. I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that interesting anymore, personally. I think even the legit guy would struggle to get much above $1500. The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed motherboards now for $1500 (might not work noted). I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure why there would be any interest. I've got one I bought with the original packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is rare for my collecting, but I don't know what makes any Apple 2 like that collectible. As in why are they collectible with low serials / part numbers. is there any documentation as to when they were made with those numbers that would make them significant? The numbers made as Raymond said would make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think unless they have some other significance. just curious. thanks Jim Jim the vintagecomputer museum guy wants a crazy price for a roll of teletype punch tape... I do not understand some of his prices. Ed# From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 3 03:31:32 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 01:31:32 -0800 Subject: Hollerith cars available (ebay warning). Message-ID: <95a49858-fcba-d49c-38ac-1423826bbace@jwsss.com> Sorry for posting the National machine w/o an Ebay warning. Anyway anyone that has a home keypunch will possibly be interested in this guy. I have ordered up a pile, as I doubt they will show up this cheap unless someone takes it on themselves to manufacture them as the earlier discussions suggested. Not holding my breath for that. I don't personally care that there is a lot of crap printed on them, rather than the column indexes. The machines don't read that, and the top band is clear for my keypunches to write there with whatever is on the card. thanks Jim Has cases of 2000 and also cases of 5 x 2000 = 10000 cards (look for the 5 case auction separately) http://www.ebay.com/itm/272488557055 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jan 3 04:34:59 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 11:34:59 +0100 (CET) Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <586A9225.1090206@pico-systems.com> References: <1646865906.4042591.1483073092591.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1646865906.4042591.1483073092591@mail.yahoo.com> <58668323.1080706@pico-systems.com> <586A9225.1090206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote: > (For reference, we were talking about my experiences with a Bendix G-15, not > an LGP-30.) So, I think the G-15 drum had a brass sleeve that might have How should I know? Change the subject then! Christian From lars at nocrew.org Tue Jan 3 04:39:45 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:39:45 +0100 Subject: Fix for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus bootstrap on CMD SCSI controllers In-Reply-To: <2f665e0c-acdb-4c16-e919-1d2a63c480f0@gmail.com> (Josh Dersch's message of "Mon, 2 Jan 2017 22:58:54 -0800") References: <2f665e0c-acdb-4c16-e919-1d2a63c480f0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86h95gl95a.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Josh Dersch wrote: > Thought I'd share this fix with you all just in case someone in the > future might make use of it. There's no central repository for fixes like these? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 3 08:47:49 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 06:47:49 -0800 Subject: PDP-10 Foonex In-Reply-To: <86o9zolkiy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <86o9zolkiy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <0dbc7e82-7d4b-ee58-a529-fe6c0629dd9e@bitsavers.org> wonder if its the code on bitsavers I got from a Symbolics backup tape On 1/2/17 10:33 PM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Appeared here: > > http://github.com/PDP-10/FOONEX > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 3 08:53:34 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 06:53:34 -0800 Subject: Hollerith cars available (ebay warning). In-Reply-To: <95a49858-fcba-d49c-38ac-1423826bbace@jwsss.com> References: <95a49858-fcba-d49c-38ac-1423826bbace@jwsss.com> Message-ID: The rounded corners may be more of an issue since unmodified Documation card readers can't read them. On 1/3/17 1:31 AM, jim stephens wrote: > I don't personally care that there is a lot of crap printed on them, rather than the column indexes. The machines don't > read that, and the top band is clear for my keypunches to write there with whatever is on the card. > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 3 09:00:43 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 07:00:43 -0800 Subject: ISO Compugraphic MCS-10 keyboard Message-ID: Pics of what I'm trying to find at http://www.retrocomputing.net/parts/compugraphic/mcs_keyb/ Bought one w/o kb or monitor and managed to locate a few floppies for it. CP/M 86 was available from CG, but I don't think there's much chance of ever finding that. Even just a dump of the microcontroller in the kb would be helpful. I'm not quite sure who the contact would be at retrocomputing.net to ask if they could dump the one in theirs. I have the PALs dumped and disassembled, will have those up on bitsavers later this morning. From james at attfield.co.uk Mon Jan 2 15:09:21 2017 From: james at attfield.co.uk (James Attfield) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 21:09:21 -0000 Subject: Desparately seeking Cromemco chassis (UK) Message-ID: <002901d2653c$7d94c2b0$78be4810$@attfield.co.uk> Wishing all here a very Happy New Year! Along with some other folks in 2017 I have decided I am going to ripple through all of my vintage systems and warm their beautiful and friendly caches. I won't have a problem with my BBC Micro, Atari 1040ST, Amiga 500's, 2000's, 3000 and 4000 and the PowerMac's but what I really would like is to bring my Cromemco back on line. I have the cards (DPU, 256KZ, 16FDC plus sundry others e.g. Quadart, IOP) and drives (Tandon TM100 5" and dual TM848 8") but although I have a naked Blitz Bus I lack a decent chassis. This is a plea for any kind soul with a spare or unwanted chassis who is prepared to let one go to help me out. Ideally a CS/3 chassis would be preferable however a Z2D, Z2 or even a System 1 chassis would be gratefully given a loving and permanent home. Naturally, given the weight of same, I expect I would have to pick up or arrange transport so regretfully any offers would have to be UK-based. The CS/3, and the Z2/Z2D had power supplies designed to handle a fully loaded bus of 21 S-100 cards (although I never handled one with more than 12 or so) and were one of those rare systems which could pass Navy certification i.e. survive being stood on by a rating in full gear and boots so were quite substantial. I would also be very interested in a 64FDC and any 5Mb or 20Mb IMI drives as I have a WDI-II controller, alternatively an STDC controller. James ---- James Attfield West Midlands, UK G8ZMP From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 3 09:50:40 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 10:50:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fix for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus bootstrap on CMD SCSI controllers Message-ID: <20170103155040.D19C918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > Thought I'd share this fix with you all just in case someone in the > future might make use of it. To help disseminate it, I uploaded the fix to the Computer History wiki: http://gunkies.org/wiki/CDU-710/M_disk_controller > From: Lars Brinkhoff > There's no central repository for fixes like these? Well, the CH wiki would be a good place, but creating new accounts on it is proving to be difficult. I'm trying to get ahold of one of the two bureacrats, to make me an admin (I've been one on Wikipedia since the Devonian), so I can create accounts for people, but so far no luck. Noel From bygg at cafax.se Tue Jan 3 16:53:46 2017 From: bygg at cafax.se (Johnny Eriksson) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 16:53:46 WET Subject: PDP-10 Foonex In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Jan 2017 07:33:57 +0100 Message-ID: > Appeared here: > > http://github.com/PDP-10/FOONEX The web says: "Initial checkin whilst I figure out what format the files are" I took a quick look and guessed a little: #include typedef unsigned long long w36; void pchar(char c) { c &= 0177; if ((c < ' ') || (c == 0177)) c = ' '; putchar(c); } int main(int argc, char* argv[]) { int wnum = 0; int c1, c2, c3, c4, c5; w36 w; int lh, rh; for (;;) { w = getchar(); w <<= 8; w |= getchar(); w <<= 8; w |= getchar(); w <<= 8; w |= getchar(); w <<= 4; c5 = getchar(); if (c5 == EOF) break; w |= (c5 & 0x0f); lh = w >> 18; rh = w & 0777777; c1 = (w >> 29) & 0177; c2 = (w >> 22) & 0177; c3 = (w >> 15) & 0177; c4 = (w >> 8) & 0177; c5 = (w >> 1) & 0177; printf(" %6o: %9llx %06o,,%06o", wnum, w, lh, rh); printf(" %3o %3o %3o %3o %3o \"", c1, c2, c3, c4, c5); pchar(c1); pchar(c2); pchar(c3); pchar(c4); pchar(c5); printf("\"\n"); wnum += 1; } return 0; } resulted in: 0: 7000037 000700,,000067 0 34 0 0 33 " " 1: 21f30 000000,,417460 0 0 4 37 30 " " 2: 894e5ba78 422471,,335170 104 123 113 72 74 "DSK:<" 3: 8d3e7ce8a 432371,,747212 106 117 117 116 105 "FOONE" 4: b0fa1c882 541750,,344202 130 76 103 110 101 "X>CHA" 5: 9f4d74d82 476465,,646602 117 123 56 115 101 "OS.MA" 6: 86ed9b972 415666,,334562 103 73 63 71 71 "C;399" 7: 0 000000,,000000 0 0 0 0 0 " " [snip] 777: 0 000000,,000000 0 0 0 0 0 " " 1000: 774e94374 356472,,241564 73 123 122 103 72 ";SRC:" 1001: 794ecd35c 362473,,151534 74 123 131 123 56 "CH" 1004: 833e9ae9a 406372,,327232 101 117 123 56 115 "AOS.M" 1005: 830d73372 406065,,631562 101 103 56 63 71 "AC.39" 1006: 6e810375a 335004,,033532 67 40 40 67 55 "7 7-" 1007: 9b87cad70 467037,,126560 115 141 171 55 70 "May-8" 1010: 62818b974 305006,,134564 61 40 61 71 72 "1 19:" 1011: 66d5d346c 315527,,232154 63 65 72 64 66 "35:46" 1012: 58822e4d2 261010,,562322 54 40 105 144 151 ", Edi" 1013: e88317940 721014,,274500 164 40 142 171 40 "t by " 1014: 9b361cd1a 466330,,346432 115 115 103 115 15 "MMCM " [and so on] Looks like a tape in core-dump format with a header page. Should be kindof trivial to process these into plain text automagically. --Johnny From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Jan 3 10:36:19 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 08:36:19 -0800 Subject: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any) In-Reply-To: <239bff03-7be9-19c9-fa51-a0a9077f3a40@jwsss.com> References: <056lkbel28a484oldvl40jfw.1483428177559@email.android.com> <239bff03-7be9-19c9-fa51-a0a9077f3a40@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <023e01d265df$846994f0$8d3cbed0$@bettercomputing.net> >On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote: > I brought the RFI thing up with him. No response. There is a legit Rev 1 there too asking $3500. I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that interesting anymore, personally. I think even the legit guy would struggle to get much above $1500. >The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed motherboards now for $1500 (might not >work noted). >I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure why there would be any interest. I've got one >I bought with the original packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is rare for my collecting, but I >don't know what makes any Apple 2 like that collectible. As in why are they collectible with low serials / part >numbers. >is there any documentation as to when they were made with those numbers that would make them significant? >The numbers made as Raymond said would make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think unless they have >some other significance. >just curious. >thanks >Jim When I got into collecting an original Apple II was as rare as hen's teeth on ebay, etc. Those got huge bucks, regardless of rev. Then sellers caught on and stuff started coming out of closets, basements, estate sales. I actually track Apple II sales and prices have massively declined since 15 years ago. I mean, there's 60000+ out there theoretically, and II+ shared the same components and production lines for a time. Only diff was the ROMs. Now Rev 0 is where it's at, especially a rare ventless case. Oh, and late SNs in the 70000 range for some reason still get $700-800. I don't know why. The one thing I can tell you is, if an 'expert' tells you something about original II production, there's a good chance they are wrong. Some authoritative sources claimed no Rev 02 boards went into public hands, for example, but I have one in my SN 16000s machine. Some would claim that can't be original, but it is.. the date code on it is the same as the keyboard and case, all right in the range of other 16000 series machines, which on either side of mine have Rev 03. Apple didn't use the same rev consistently.. sometimes they just grabbed from the pile. It's kind of a dogs breakfast after Rev 0. My Rev 02 operates no differently, other than Integer BASIC, than my RFI II+. More and more I'm not finding IIs to be all that amazing or worth fighting over. A Rev 0, just owing to the few truly unique design features, is the only one I might want now. From Mark at Misty.com Tue Jan 3 10:45:20 2017 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 11:45:20 -0500 Subject: IA-1010 Z-80 board difficulties! In-Reply-To: <2f700075-8f6c-476a-8f74-a5168be15f5c@googlegroups.com> References: <889932fd-e2ca-4b21-b17d-4dc3af762633@googlegroups.com> <2f700075-8f6c-476a-8f74-a5168be15f5c@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <20170103164520.GA6039@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Mon, Jan 02, 2017 at 10:32:28PM -0800, Richard Pope wrote: > Walter, > . . . . I appreciate all of this information. I have a revision 2.0 > board and my info shows U8 as a 96S02 multivibrator chip. I have tried > to find a replacement for this and I have not been successful. I believe this is a suitable replacement. I found it while getting the parts together necessary to build my bare IA-1010 Z-80 board. "AM26S02PC - Schottky Monostable Multivibrator ( 5 pcs ) - 16 Pin DIP Plastic" http://www.ebay.com/itm/261370092245 Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From lars at nocrew.org Tue Jan 3 11:20:40 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 18:20:40 +0100 Subject: PDP-10 Foonex In-Reply-To: <0dbc7e82-7d4b-ee58-a529-fe6c0629dd9e@bitsavers.org> (Al Kossow's message of "Tue, 3 Jan 2017 06:47:49 -0800") References: <86o9zolkiy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <0dbc7e82-7d4b-ee58-a529-fe6c0629dd9e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <86a8b8kql3.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Al Kossow wrote: > Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >> Appeared here: >> http://github.com/PDP-10/FOONEX > wonder if its the code on bitsavers I got from a Symbolics backup tape Yes, it looks much like the contents of your F2/files directory, minus the microcode. From phil at ultimate.com Tue Jan 3 11:26:02 2017 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 12:26:02 -0500 Subject: PDP-10 Foonex In-Reply-To: <86a8b8kql3.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <86o9zolkiy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <0dbc7e82-7d4b-ee58-a529-fe6c0629dd9e@bitsavers.org> <86a8b8kql3.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <201701031726.v03HQ22h072361@ultimate.com> How far did Foonex diverge from BB&N TENEX? If not TOO far, it might be nice to have them both as branches in one repository, for comparison. From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 10:58:07 2017 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 10:58:07 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update Message-ID: While waiting for the machine, I decided to investigate the stuck drum. This unit has 71 read/write heads plus what appears to be an inductive pickup for the system clock. Upon closer examination I discovered multiple heads in contact with the drum surface preventing rotation. And in the process of removing the mounting bars that secure the heads only then did damage become visible on a couple of tracks (scored oxide under the heads). What I?m wondering is if anyone is familiar with the setup/adjustment procedure for getting the heads set correctly. There *might* be a couple of unused tracks I can relocate heads to, but my thought is that if half a dozen heads were already in contact, then the rest may be perilously close as well (swelled drum?). My odds of setting 71 heads perfectly on a 50 year old worn drum is?well?not great. For kicks, I tried to use a piece of cheap (=thin) (0.004?) notebook paper as a feeler gage to see if I could identify the offending heads prior to support removal. This was a no-go as clearance was too tight. So, is it true these ride 0.001? off the surface? I suspect with temp and humidity changes, and given the age, I would be better off building a solid state drum emulator for the 4KW mem, but retaining the drum for the clock and possibly the 3 fast registers..if I can get those (7) heads set correctly. Any input is welcome. -C From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 3 11:42:47 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 09:42:47 -0800 Subject: PDP-10 Foonex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8610f30f-80ad-38fc-6312-2d1d742d8707@bitsavers.org> thanks. guess I should do that my files in http://bitsavers.org/bits/Foonly/F2 On 1/3/17 4:53 PM, Johnny Eriksson wrote: >> Appeared here: >> >> http://github.com/PDP-10/FOONEX > > The web says: > "Initial checkin whilst I figure out what format the files are" > > I took a quick look and guessed a little: > > #include > > typedef unsigned long long w36; > > void pchar(char c) > { > c &= 0177; > if ((c < ' ') || (c == 0177)) > c = ' '; > putchar(c); > } > > int main(int argc, char* argv[]) > { > int wnum = 0; > int c1, c2, c3, c4, c5; > w36 w; > int lh, rh; > > for (;;) { > w = getchar(); > w <<= 8; w |= getchar(); > w <<= 8; w |= getchar(); > w <<= 8; w |= getchar(); > w <<= 4; c5 = getchar(); > if (c5 == EOF) > break; > w |= (c5 & 0x0f); > > lh = w >> 18; > rh = w & 0777777; > c1 = (w >> 29) & 0177; > c2 = (w >> 22) & 0177; > c3 = (w >> 15) & 0177; > c4 = (w >> 8) & 0177; > c5 = (w >> 1) & 0177; > > printf(" %6o: %9llx %06o,,%06o", wnum, w, lh, rh); > printf(" %3o %3o %3o %3o %3o \"", c1, c2, c3, c4, c5); > pchar(c1); pchar(c2); pchar(c3); pchar(c4); pchar(c5); > printf("\"\n"); > wnum += 1; > } > > return 0; > } > > resulted in: > > 0: 7000037 000700,,000067 0 34 0 0 33 " " > 1: 21f30 000000,,417460 0 0 4 37 30 " " > 2: 894e5ba78 422471,,335170 104 123 113 72 74 "DSK:<" > 3: 8d3e7ce8a 432371,,747212 106 117 117 116 105 "FOONE" > 4: b0fa1c882 541750,,344202 130 76 103 110 101 "X>CHA" > 5: 9f4d74d82 476465,,646602 117 123 56 115 101 "OS.MA" > 6: 86ed9b972 415666,,334562 103 73 63 71 71 "C;399" > 7: 0 000000,,000000 0 0 0 0 0 " " > > [snip] > > 777: 0 000000,,000000 0 0 0 0 0 " " > 1000: 774e94374 356472,,241564 73 123 122 103 72 ";SRC:" > 1001: 794ecd35c 362473,,151534 74 123 131 123 56 " 1002: 9b3e749a8 466371,,644650 115 117 116 111 124 "MONIT" > 1003: 9f49f4390 476447,,641620 117 122 76 103 110 "OR>CH" > 1004: 833e9ae9a 406372,,327232 101 117 123 56 115 "AOS.M" > 1005: 830d73372 406065,,631562 101 103 56 63 71 "AC.39" > 1006: 6e810375a 335004,,033532 67 40 40 67 55 "7 7-" > 1007: 9b87cad70 467037,,126560 115 141 171 55 70 "May-8" > 1010: 62818b974 305006,,134564 61 40 61 71 72 "1 19:" > 1011: 66d5d346c 315527,,232154 63 65 72 64 66 "35:46" > 1012: 58822e4d2 261010,,562322 54 40 105 144 151 ", Edi" > 1013: e88317940 721014,,274500 164 40 142 171 40 "t by " > 1014: 9b361cd1a 466330,,346432 115 115 103 115 15 "MMCM " > > [and so on] > > Looks like a tape in core-dump format with a header page. > > Should be kindof trivial to process these into plain text automagically. > > --Johnny > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 3 12:11:48 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 12:11:48 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <586BE964.8070805@pico-systems.com> On 01/03/2017 10:58 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > While waiting for the machine, I decided to investigate the stuck drum. > This unit has 71 read/write heads plus what appears to be an inductive > pickup for the system clock. Upon closer examination I discovered multiple > heads in contact with the drum surface preventing rotation. And in the > process of removing the mounting bars that secure the heads only then did > damage become visible on a couple of tracks (scored oxide under the heads). Most likely the same issue as the G-15 we had. Dust was allowed to get into the drum area and pack under the heads. Probably if you pull the heads and clean them, it will restore clearance. Of course, the bearings may be bad, or will have to be replaced anyway as the grease may have hardened. > > > What I?m wondering is if anyone is familiar with the setup/adjustment > procedure for getting the heads set correctly. There *might* be a couple of > unused tracks I can relocate heads to, but my thought is that if half a > dozen heads were already in contact, then the rest may be perilously close > as well (swelled drum?). My odds of setting 71 heads perfectly on a 50 year > old worn drum is?well?not great. > If the drum can be set up to run true again (may need attention to bearings) then I think setting the heads up won't be that tough. I suspect it is done with a feeler gauge, this is low-resolution stuff with large gaps in the heads, so the heads probably run with a gap of at least .005" (~ 0.1mm) (I'd think, without actually knowing). > > For kicks, I tried to use a piece of cheap (=thin) (0.004?) notebook paper > as a feeler gage to see if I could identify the offending heads prior to > support removal. This was a no-go as clearance was too tight. So, is it > true these ride 0.001? off the surface? Well, it could be. That sounds really close for the vintage involved. So, maybe the drum or oxide has swelled. Anyway, if there is much damage to the oxide, it may not make sense to try to repair it. if the heads that jammed it left divots in the drum, or the surface is uneven (likely if swelling actually occurred) then it may require extreme efforts to repair. > > I suspect with temp and humidity changes, and given the age, I would be > better off building a solid state drum emulator for the 4KW mem, but > retaining the drum for the clock and possibly the 3 fast registers..if I > can get those (7) heads set correctly. > > > > Why not just replace the whole works? If you are going to replace the long lines with electronic memory, doing the short lines and the clock track should be trivial. I think a mid-sized FPGA could do it all quite easily. My guess is that if the surface is uneven, it may not read back data reliably. The high spots might be fine, the low spots will have dropouts. This is all assuming swelling was the culprit. It is also possible that machined parts suffered stress relief over the years. Wrought metal has stress imparted to it when rolled, and then machining will partially relieve the stresses, causing warpage. The warping continues over time. To eliminate this, critical parts are machined close to size, heat treated to relieve the stress, and then finish ground to exact dimensions. It is possible some of the stress wasn't relieved during manufacture. And, nobody expected a 195x machine to be running in 2017, especially as anybody in the computer business knew those transistors were right around the corner, and would almost certainly replace tubes. Jon From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Jan 3 13:14:23 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 14:14:23 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update Message-ID: <1f5bb6f.eba5a48.459d520f@aol.com> In a message dated 1/3/2017 11:11:54 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, elson at pico-systems.com writes: On 01/03/2017 10:58 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > While waiting for the machine, I decided to investigate the stuck drum. > This unit has 71 read/write heads plus what appears to be an inductive > pickup for the system clock. Upon closer examination I discovered multiple > heads in contact with the drum surface preventing rotation. And in the > process of removing the mounting bars that secure the heads only then did > damage become visible on a couple of tracks (scored oxide under the heads). Most likely the same issue as the G-15 we had. Dust was allowed to get into the drum area and pack under the heads. Probably if you pull the heads and clean them, it will restore clearance. Of course, the bearings may be bad, or will have to be replaced anyway as the grease may have hardened. > > > What I?m wondering is if anyone is familiar with the setup/adjustment > procedure for getting the heads set correctly. There *might* be a couple of > unused tracks I can relocate heads to, but my thought is that if half a > dozen heads were already in contact, then the rest may be perilously close > as well (swelled drum?). My odds of setting 71 heads perfectly on a 50 year > old worn drum is?well?not great. > If the drum can be set up to run true again (may need attention to bearings) then I think setting the heads up won't be that tough. I suspect it is done with a feeler gauge, this is low-resolution stuff with large gaps in the heads, so the heads probably run with a gap of at least .005" (~ 0.1mm) (I'd think, without actually knowing). > > For kicks, I tried to use a piece of cheap (=thin) (0.004?) notebook paper > as a feeler gage to see if I could identify the offending heads prior to > support removal. This was a no-go as clearance was too tight. So, is it > true these ride 0.001? off the surface? Well, it could be. That sounds really close for the vintage involved. So, maybe the drum or oxide has swelled. Anyway, if there is much damage to the oxide, it may not make sense to try to repair it. if the heads that jammed it left divots in the drum, or the surface is uneven (likely if swelling actually occurred) then it may require extreme efforts to repair. > > I suspect with temp and humidity changes, and given the age, I would be > better off building a solid state drum emulator for the 4KW mem, but > retaining the drum for the clock and possibly the 3 fast registers..if I > can get those (7) heads set correctly. > > > > Why not just replace the whole works? If you are going to replace the long lines with electronic memory, doing the short lines and the clock track should be trivial. I think a mid-sized FPGA could do it all quite easily. My guess is that if the surface is uneven, it may not read back data reliably. The high spots might be fine, the low spots will have dropouts. This is all assuming swelling was the culprit. It is also possible that machined parts suffered stress relief over the years. Wrought metal has stress imparted to it when rolled, and then machining will partially relieve the stresses, causing warpage. The warping continues over time. To eliminate this, critical parts are machined close to size, heat treated to relieve the stress, and then finish ground to exact dimensions. It is possible some of the stress wasn't relieved during manufacture. And, nobody expected a 195x machine to be running in 2017, especially as anybody in the computer business knew those transistors were right around the corner, and would almost certainly replace tubes. Jon Cory - then what holds the oxide to the drum? Horrible thoughts of what happens to binder layers on mag tape... flaking, sticky shed.... ecccshhh! I deal with this problem all the time on some of the historic video tape we have done conversion on out of our media lab..... From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 3 13:47:43 2017 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 19:47:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> On Tue, 1/3/17, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > What I?m wondering is if anyone is familiar with the setup/adjustment > procedure for getting the heads set correctly. There *might* be a couple of > unused tracks I can relocate heads to, but my thought is that if half a > dozen heads were already in contact, then the rest may be perilously close > as well (swelled drum?). My odds of setting 71 heads perfectly on a 50 year > old worn drum is?well?not great. A while back I read a procedure (probably in reference to the G-15). Quite frankly, it scared me a little, but I'll pass it on. The idea is to use sound. The tech would use a screwdriver as a sounding bar between the casing and his ear. Then the head was tightened down until you could just hear it start to brush. I don't remember for sure, but I'd have to think that you would then back off just enough for the brushing sound to stop. I don't recall whether the article said that this was done with the motor running or the drum was being turned by hand, but if it were my machine, I'd set the heads turning the drum slowly by hand and then check for any brushing sound when the motor comes up. Whether or not the drum is restorable, I'd still plan on building a drum simulator. That way you can get the rest of the machine up and running without stressing or depending on the drum too much. Plus if the drum does turn out to be unrestorable, you'll still be able to run the rest of the machine. As to how to approach the simulator, I would have to think a C.H.I.P. or a Pi would have plenty of horsepower, especially if you drop Linux and either run on the bare metal or as an in-kernel driver in something lighter weight. BLS From abs at absd.org Tue Jan 3 14:11:39 2017 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 20:11:39 +0000 Subject: Fix for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus bootstrap on CMD SCSI controllers In-Reply-To: <20170103155040.D19C918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170103155040.D19C918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 3 January 2017 at 15:50, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Josh Dersch > > > Thought I'd share this fix with you all just in case someone in the > > future might make use of it. > > To help disseminate it, I uploaded the fix to the Computer History wiki: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/CDU-710/M_disk_controller > > > > From: Lars Brinkhoff > > > There's no central repository for fixes like these? > > Well, the CH wiki would be a good place, but creating new accounts on it is > proving to be difficult. > > I'm trying to get ahold of one of the two bureacrats, to make me an admin > (I've been one on Wikipedia since the Devonian), so I can create accounts for > people, but so far no luck. > > Noel Would it make sense for someone to import it to github? If nothing else it should be be easy enough to start with 0, then update to 0a 0b and then 0c. so we have what history is available. (checks github) Aha - I see that johnwfinigan has already put up a 0c, though it doesn't seem to have the 0, 0a & 0b history https://github.com/johnwfinigan/4.3BSD-quasijarus0c/commits/master Actually I might just do the 0..0c history into a github entry myself, then anyone else can just {v,}fork and take it from there as desired :-p David From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jan 3 14:22:00 2017 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:22:00 +0100 (MET) Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jan 2017, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > > > What I?m wondering is if anyone is familiar with the setup/adjustment > procedure for getting the heads set correctly. There *might* be a couple of We relocated some of the heads on our second LGP-30. This is not difficult. We put 3 or 4 layers of 3 micro-meter kitchen aluminium between head and drum. If I remember right, the distance is 12 micro- meter. Maybe, that we made a fine adjustment 3 or 4 layers with the oscilloscope, to get the same output voltage at the head, than the other heads. Maybe that 3 layers of 3 micro-meter Al have something more than 9 micro-meters. > unused tracks I can relocate heads to, but my thought is that if half a > dozen heads were already in contact, then the rest may be perilously close > as well (swelled drum?). My odds of setting 71 heads perfectly on a 50 year > old worn drum is?well?not great. > If I counted right on every head bar are 3 unused positions as spare tracks. > > > For kicks, I tried to use a piece of cheap (=thin) (0.004?) notebook paper > as a feeler gage to see if I could identify the offending heads prior to > support removal. This was a no-go as clearance was too tight. So, is it > true these ride 0.001? off the surface? > The (german) maintenance manual whose scan is on our website speaks about 12 micro.meters. There are 64 data tracks, 4 timing tracks (including the main clock at the rightmost position) and 3 tracks for the registers. Most problematic are the timing tracks. If they are faulty, there is no simple solution to change the heads, because there is no provision to write them in the machine. > If there are only few tracks defective, and not exchangeable, I would try to get most of them in the lower adress-room of the machine, and at least the last track. The first 3 tracks are used by the "operating-system", program 10.4, and the last track is used by the initial loader, that loads 10.4 itself. But timing tracks S1, S2, S3 and the registers themselves must be functional. If this is not, a semiconductor drum-emulator ist indeed the only solution. If you lift all the head bars 1 or 2 mm, then the drum can rotate even with this fake. Klemens > > Any input is welcome. -C > -- klemens krause Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 13:39:37 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 14:39:37 -0500 Subject: Desparately seeking Cromemco chassis (UK) References: <002901d2653c$7d94c2b0$78be4810$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <782601ACD87242DBA4CB5BDC9CAC08FA@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Attfield" To: Sent: Monday, January 02, 2017 4:09 PM Subject: Desparately seeking Cromemco chassis (UK) > Wishing all here a very Happy New Year! > > Along with some other folks in 2017 I have decided I am going to ripple > through all of my vintage systems and warm their beautiful and friendly > caches. > > I won't have a problem with my BBC Micro, Atari 1040ST, Amiga 500's, 2000's, > 3000 and 4000 and the PowerMac's but what I really would like is to bring my > Cromemco back on line. I have the cards (DPU, 256KZ, 16FDC plus sundry > others e.g. Quadart, IOP) and drives (Tandon TM100 5" and dual TM848 8") but > although I have a naked Blitz Bus I lack a decent chassis. This is a plea > for any kind soul with a spare or unwanted chassis who is prepared to let > one go to help me out. Ideally a CS/3 chassis would be preferable however a > Z2D, Z2 or even a System 1 chassis would be gratefully given a loving and > permanent home. > > Naturally, given the weight of same, I expect I would have to pick up or > arrange transport so regretfully any offers would have to be UK-based. The > CS/3, and the Z2/Z2D had power supplies designed to handle a fully loaded > bus of 21 S-100 cards (although I never handled one with more than 12 or so) > and were one of those rare systems which could pass Navy certification i.e. > survive being stood on by a rating in full gear and boots so were quite > substantial. > > I would also be very interested in a 64FDC and any 5Mb or 20Mb IMI drives as > I have a WDI-II controller, alternatively an STDC controller. > > James > ---- > > James Attfield > West Midlands, UK > G8ZMP > ========================== A shame that there's a big pond between us since I'll probably be scrapping a CS-3 and a CS-300 soon. I'll probably also be selling a CS-1, but I imagine it'd also be expensive to ship overseas. However, I might be able to help you out with a 64FDC and an IMI drive (how about an 8" 7710? ;-) and/or an STDC; contact me off-list. BTW, if you can find a somewhat more common ST506 20MB IMI drive as used in PCs and Corvus boxes (e.g. eBay 111754572263, but cheaper) then all you'd need is the logic board off a (scrap?) IMI-interface version in order to use it with your WDI-II. It will take me a while to get around to digging this stuff out and testing it though, so I hope you're not in a hurry... I'll cross-post your request on the Cromemco mail list just in case someone else has something for you. mike From abs at absd.org Tue Jan 3 14:50:10 2017 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 20:50:10 +0000 Subject: Fix for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus bootstrap on CMD SCSI controllers In-Reply-To: References: <20170103155040.D19C918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 3 January 2017 at 20:11, David Brownlee wrote: > On 3 January 2017 at 15:50, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Josh Dersch >> >> > Thought I'd share this fix with you all just in case someone in the >> > future might make use of it. >> >> To help disseminate it, I uploaded the fix to the Computer History wiki: >> >> http://gunkies.org/wiki/CDU-710/M_disk_controller >> >> >> > From: Lars Brinkhoff >> >> > There's no central repository for fixes like these? >> >> Well, the CH wiki would be a good place, but creating new accounts on it is >> proving to be difficult. >> >> I'm trying to get ahold of one of the two bureacrats, to make me an admin >> (I've been one on Wikipedia since the Devonian), so I can create accounts for >> people, but so far no luck. >> >> Noel > > Would it make sense for someone to import it to github? > > If nothing else it should be be easy enough to start with 0, then > update to 0a 0b and then 0c. so we have what history is available. > > (checks github) > > Aha - I see that johnwfinigan has already put up a 0c, though it > doesn't seem to have the 0, 0a & 0b history > https://github.com/johnwfinigan/4.3BSD-quasijarus0c/commits/master > > Actually I might just do the 0..0c history into a github entry myself, > then anyone else can just {v,}fork and take it from there as desired :-p No sooner said than done :) In case it proves of interest to anyone. Happy for it to be forked (obviously!) or to have patches or pull requests punted back to me https://github.com/abs0/4.3BSD-Quasijarus David From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 14:57:30 2017 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 14:57:30 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > On Tue, 1/3/17, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > > What I?m wondering is if anyone is familiar with the setup/adjustment > > procedure for getting the heads set correctly. There *might* be a couple > of > > unused tracks I can relocate heads to, but my thought is that if half a > > dozen heads were already in contact, then the rest may be perilously > close > > as well (swelled drum?). My odds of setting 71 heads perfectly on a 50 > year > > old worn drum is?well?not great. > > A while back I read a procedure (probably in reference to the G-15). > Quite frankly, it scared me a little, but I'll pass it on. The idea is to > use sound. The tech would use a screwdriver as a sounding bar > between the casing and his ear. Then the head was tightened down > until you could just hear it start to brush. I don't remember for sure, > but I'd have to think that you would then back off just enough for > the brushing sound to stop. I don't recall whether the article said > that this was done with the motor running or the drum was being turned > by hand, but if it were my machine, I'd set the heads turning the drum > slowly by hand and then check for any brushing sound when the motor > comes up. > This sounds believable (but scary). With the 64 main heads out of the way, I pulled out a mechanic's stethoscope last night and carefully rocked with the drum back and forth listening to the recirculating register heads. One may need backed off just a little, but the adjustment screws are a little crude. > > Whether or not the drum is restorable, I'd still plan on building a drum > simulator. That way you can get the rest of the machine up and > running without stressing or depending on the drum too much. Plus > if the drum does turn out to be unrestorable, you'll still be able to > run the rest of the machine. As to how to approach the simulator, > I would have to think a C.H.I.P. or a Pi would have plenty of horsepower, > especially if you drop Linux and either run on the bare metal or > as an in-kernel driver in something lighter weight. > > BLS Once I can make sense of the timing tracks, I think I'll proceed with this. Not sure how I feel about using a micro-based solution though. Just seems wrong : ) -C > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 3 15:15:46 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:15:46 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> On 01/03/2017 12:57 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > Once I can make sense of the timing tracks, I think I'll proceed with > this. Not sure how I feel about using a micro-based solution though. > Just seems wrong : ) -C If enough working heads can be found, the drum probably can be remanufactured, as according to this: http://miriam-english.org/files/drum-computers/drum-computers.html the drum was nickel-chromium plated, not ferric oxide. This is what I would have suspected, as coating equipment and binders would probably be a far cry from modern technology back then, where precision plating was already an established art. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 3 15:19:01 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 16:19:01 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> > On Jan 3, 2017, at 4:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 01/03/2017 12:57 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > >> Once I can make sense of the timing tracks, I think I'll proceed with >> this. Not sure how I feel about using a micro-based solution though. >> Just seems wrong : ) -C > > > If enough working heads can be found, the drum probably can be > remanufactured, as according to this: > > http://miriam-english.org/files/drum-computers/drum-computers.html > > the drum was nickel-chromium plated, not ferric oxide. This is what I > would have suspected, as coating equipment and binders would probably be > a far cry from modern technology back then, where precision plating was > already an established art. Metal alloy plating seems common in fixed head disks also, at least in the ones from DEC I have seen. Making a new drum sounds like a great class project for an ambitious machine shop student. paul From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Jan 3 15:42:01 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 15:42:01 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 04:19:01PM -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > Making a new drum sounds like a great class project for an ambitious > machine shop student. Very ambitious. IIRC for the G-15 there is/are (one? two?) timing track(s) which were written at the factory. Of course whatever that machine was, has not survived. I remember reading that if you lost that timing track, your machine was toast. mcl From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 3 15:46:58 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:46:58 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7be8ec2d-0e08-0626-71c4-576097a056e1@sydex.com> On 01/03/2017 01:19 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Metal alloy plating seems common in fixed head disks also, at least > in the ones from DEC I have seen. Making a new drum sounds like a > great class project for an ambitious machine shop student. Modern CNC gear and carbide bits should make this pretty straightforward. One could even fit a new set of modern bearings. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 3 17:07:12 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 15:07:12 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 01/03/2017 01:42 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > Very ambitious. IIRC for the G-15 there is/are (one? two?) timing > track(s) which were written at the factory. Of course whatever that > machine was, has not survived. I remember reading that if you lost > that timing track, your machine was toast. Maybe. ISTR that wehn CE's were working on the CDC STAR station drums, they routinely rewrote timing tracks. I recall that their only tools were a scope and a Halliburton CE box. Apparently, the goal was write a track such that there was no detectable "splice" in the beginning/end of the track. Pretty much a cut-and-try operation. Perhaps the LGP30 is similar. --Chuck From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 18:09:31 2017 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 18:09:31 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2451CA09-1A54-403B-B018-7BD631B4A340@gmail.com> On Jan 3, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Klemens Krause wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jan 2017, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: >> >> >> What I?m wondering is if anyone is familiar with the setup/adjustment >> procedure for getting the heads set correctly. There *might* be a couple of > We relocated some of the heads on our second LGP-30. This is not difficult. We put 3 or 4 layers of 3 micro-meter kitchen aluminium > between head and drum. If I remember right, the distance is 12 micro- > meter. Maybe, that we made a fine adjustment 3 or 4 layers with the > oscilloscope, to get the same output voltage at the head, than the > other heads. Maybe that 3 layers of 3 micro-meter Al have something > more than 9 micro-meters. > > >> unused tracks I can relocate heads to, but my thought is that if half a >> dozen heads were already in contact, then the rest may be perilously close >> as well (swelled drum?). My odds of setting 71 heads perfectly on a 50 year >> old worn drum is?well?not great. >> > If I counted right on every head bar are 3 unused positions as spare > tracks. >> > >> >> For kicks, I tried to use a piece of cheap (=thin) (0.004?) notebook paper >> as a feeler gage to see if I could identify the offending heads prior to >> support removal. This was a no-go as clearance was too tight. So, is it >> true these ride 0.001? off the surface? >> > The (german) maintenance manual whose scan is on our website speaks > about 12 micro.meters. > > There are 64 data tracks, 4 timing tracks (including the main clock > at the rightmost position) and 3 tracks for the registers. Most problematic are the timing tracks. If they are faulty, there is no > simple solution to change the heads, because there is no provision > to write them in the machine. >> > If there are only few tracks defective, and not exchangeable, I > would try to get most of them in the lower adress-room of the > machine, and at least the last track. The first 3 tracks are > used by the "operating-system", program 10.4, and the last track > is used by the initial loader, that loads 10.4 itself. > But timing tracks S1, S2, S3 and the registers themselves must > be functional. > If this is not, a semiconductor drum-emulator ist indeed the > only solution. > If you lift all the head bars 1 or 2 mm, then the drum can > rotate even with this fake. > > Klemens Lots of great ideas guys! After work today I cleaned the 64 track heads and made temporary 0.004 spacers using paper strips and a hole punch. This puts all the head assemblies in the clear for now so nothing can get damaged. Using Klemens suggestion of tinfoil, I made up the perfect 0.001 feeler gauge and set the gaps for the short registers. Adjusting these is a little tricky since you first have to break loose the head securing screw, then adjust the height screw. However, the securing screw can take what is an acceptable gap down to a drum contact once torqued. A little 'back and forth' while stationary and that's resolved but perhaps there's a better way to adjust these while the machine is running (as has been suggested while watching the waveform on a scope). I don't think I'm that brave. Anyhow, my next move is to spin the drum up on the machine (when it arrives) with just the clock and short register heads and then see how much expansion we're looking at. I can then bring in the other tracks heads assembly by assembly once I'm comfortable with the runout and expansion. Spinning it by hand reveals quiet bearings and a nice tight assembly. In the interim I'll start work on the Flexowriter. Something I'm much more comfortable with. -C From chd at chdickman.com Tue Jan 3 19:04:38 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 20:04:38 -0500 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics Message-ID: I am looking for schematics or any documentation for the LA180 interface for the PDP8/e. A scan would be great. I want to see if I can use it to interface to a Centronics interface printer. -chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 3 19:22:46 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 20:22:46 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 3, 2017, at 6:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 01/03/2017 01:42 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > >> Very ambitious. IIRC for the G-15 there is/are (one? two?) timing >> track(s) which were written at the factory. Of course whatever that >> machine was, has not survived. I remember reading that if you lost >> that timing track, your machine was toast. > > > Maybe. ISTR that wehn CE's were working on the CDC STAR station drums, > they routinely rewrote timing tracks. I recall that their only tools > were a scope and a Halliburton CE box. Apparently, the goal was write a > track such that there was no detectable "splice" in the beginning/end of > the track. Pretty much a cut-and-try operation. The fixed head disk I saw rebuilt in the field was a DEC RF11 -- it had basically its entire guts replaced from spare parts. That included a new platter, so its timing track had to be written. The timing track writer box had a knob on it to tweak the clock frequency, and it worked just as you describe: keep hitting the "write track" button and tweak the knob until the track gap checker circuit said the gap size was within the required range. The key questions for reconstructing such a device is what the modulation scheme is, and the pulse pattern. There might be marker pulses for sector start, for example, or that might just be derived from a counter in the controller. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 3 19:42:29 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:42:29 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> On 1/3/17 5:22 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > The key questions for reconstructing such a device is what the modulation scheme is, and the pulse pattern. There are running LGP-30s. Should be short work with a digital oscillosope to capture the flux changes. Hopefully, someone has done this already. Someone should do the same for the surviving G-15s as well. I think Paul Pierce's machine is at LCM now. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 3 19:50:36 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:50:36 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/17 5:42 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Someone should do the same for the surviving G-15s as well. I think Paul Pierce's machine is at LCM now. > turns out we have it http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102728118 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 3 19:51:48 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:51:48 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/17 5:42 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I think Paul Pierce's machine is at LCM now. They have his LGP-30 From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 3 21:30:04 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 21:30:04 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <586C6C3C.2050001@pico-systems.com> On 01/03/2017 01:47 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > On Tue, 1/3/17, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: >> What I?m wondering is if anyone is familiar with the setup/adjustment >> procedure for getting the heads set correctly. There *might* be a couple of >> unused tracks I can relocate heads to, but my thought is that if half a >> dozen heads were already in contact, then the rest may be perilously close >> as well (swelled drum?). My odds of setting 71 heads perfectly on a 50 year >> old worn drum is?well?not great. > A while back I read a procedure (probably in reference to the G-15). > Quite frankly, it scared me a little, but I'll pass it on. The idea is to > use sound. The tech would use a screwdriver as a sounding bar > between the casing and his ear. Then the head was tightened down > until you could just hear it start to brush. I don't remember for sure, > but I'd have to think that you would then back off just enough for > the brushing sound to stop. I don't recall whether the article said > that this was done with the motor running or the drum was being turned > by hand, but if it were my machine, I'd set the heads turning the drum > slowly by hand and then check for any brushing sound when the motor > comes up. YIKES!!! Well, I think the first order of business is to check and possibly replace the drum bearings. Then, get a sensitive dial test indicator (I have an old Federal with .0001" markings, and a Federal electronic indicator that reads down to 50 uInch.) Make up a fixture to mount it on the drum frame and see if the surface of the drum is still true. It is possible that the bearing inner races might need to be turned on the shaft for minimal runout. If the surface has several wobbles per rev, then I think the drum will not be serviceable without turning the oxide true again. I have NO IDEA how thick the oxide might be on these. It did seem like the G-15 oxide was pretty thick, maybe .010" or so. If the above procedure is for real, then it pretty much had to be, to survive such abuse. Doing some totally off the wall calculations in my head, I figured out the data density would have been in the range of 100 bits/inch on the drum circumference. Calculating from the circumference and the number of bits per track, you should be able to calculate the bits/inch. Assuming pretty wide gaps between the head pole pieces, and the bit density, it should not require insanely small head flying height. You can fairly easily get brass shim stock down to .001" or so (kitchen aluminum foil is about .0015") to use for a head height setter. So, does the LGP-30 have permanent storage on the drum, or is it erased by a magnet at every revolution? The G-15 modeled the drum just like a mercury delay line, it had a write head, a read head and a bar erase magnet on every line, so there was no gap for the write head to turn on and off between words. The FF that drove the write amp normally recirculated the data from the read head, except when a word was being written. Each drum track had a long line (for program and data) and a short line. Most of the short lines held 4 words, so they were quickly accessible. One short line only held one word, that was the accumulator. Jon From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 21:32:26 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 19:32:26 -0800 Subject: Fix for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus bootstrap on CMD SCSI controllers In-Reply-To: References: <20170103155040.D19C918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2e7088fe-086e-fca1-8910-41aafa06574f@gmail.com> On 1/3/17 12:50 PM, David Brownlee wrote: > On 3 January 2017 at 20:11, David Brownlee wrote: >> On 3 January 2017 at 15:50, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> > From: Josh Dersch >>> >>> > Thought I'd share this fix with you all just in case someone in the >>> > future might make use of it. >>> >>> To help disseminate it, I uploaded the fix to the Computer History wiki: >>> >>> http://gunkies.org/wiki/CDU-710/M_disk_controller >>> >>> >>> > From: Lars Brinkhoff >>> >>> > There's no central repository for fixes like these? >>> >>> Well, the CH wiki would be a good place, but creating new accounts on it is >>> proving to be difficult. >>> >>> I'm trying to get ahold of one of the two bureacrats, to make me an admin >>> (I've been one on Wikipedia since the Devonian), so I can create accounts for >>> people, but so far no luck. >>> >>> Noel >> Would it make sense for someone to import it to github? >> >> If nothing else it should be be easy enough to start with 0, then >> update to 0a 0b and then 0c. so we have what history is available. >> >> (checks github) >> >> Aha - I see that johnwfinigan has already put up a 0c, though it >> doesn't seem to have the 0, 0a & 0b history >> https://github.com/johnwfinigan/4.3BSD-quasijarus0c/commits/master >> >> Actually I might just do the 0..0c history into a github entry myself, >> then anyone else can just {v,}fork and take it from there as desired :-p > No sooner said than done :) > > In case it proves of interest to anyone. Happy for it to be forked > (obviously!) or to have patches or pull requests punted back to me > > https://github.com/abs0/4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > David > Very cool, thanks for setting that up! I have one other fix for the UDA50 driver (that allows Emulex SCSI controllers to work properly) that I'll combine with my CMD fix and I'll send you a patch when I have it ready... - Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 21:55:22 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 22:55:22 -0500 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > I am looking for schematics or any documentation for the LA180 > interface for the PDP8/e. A scan would be great. I want to see if I > can use it to interface to a Centronics interface printer. I don't have the schematics (I do have an LC8-P somewhere), but I remember back in the day, people wanted to go the other way - feed a PC printer w/Centronics interface from a DEC interface. There some discussion of this here... http://www.verycomputer.com/7_6d5ee14552657121_1.htm I don't know if Berg pin S on the LC8-P is a mode select like it is on an LP11/LPV11 (perhaps the LC8-P doesn't switch modes), but it shouldn't be hard to trace that out. The data and handshake lines should be at the same positions or the LC8-P wouldn't be able drive an LA-180. -ethan From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 22:03:08 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 22:03:08 -0600 Subject: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any) In-Reply-To: <023e01d265df$846994f0$8d3cbed0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <056lkbel28a484oldvl40jfw.1483428177559@email.android.com> <239bff03-7be9-19c9-fa51-a0a9077f3a40@jwsss.com> <023e01d265df$846994f0$8d3cbed0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: "Vent-less case" - LoL!! Add some RAM, maybe a DISC-II card and those things overheated even +with+ the vents.. that's why the Cider fan became popular, among other things. When I was in high school, we'd pop the case tops open, and run them that way. Otherwise, they'd overheat and start screwing up after the first or second class period. On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Brad H wrote: > >On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote: > > I brought the RFI thing up with him. No response. There is a legit Rev > 1 there too asking $3500. I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that > interesting anymore, personally. I think even the legit guy would struggle > to get much above $1500. > >The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed > motherboards now for $1500 (might not >work noted). > > >I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure why > there would be any interest. I've got one >I bought with the original > packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is rare for my > collecting, but I >don't know what makes any Apple 2 like that > collectible. As in why are they collectible with low serials / part > >numbers. > > >is there any documentation as to when they were made with those numbers > that would make them significant? >The numbers made as Raymond said would > make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think unless they have > >some other significance. > > >just curious. > >thanks > >Jim > > When I got into collecting an original Apple II was as rare as hen's teeth > on ebay, etc. Those got huge bucks, regardless of rev. Then sellers > caught on and stuff started coming out of closets, basements, estate > sales. I actually track Apple II sales and prices have massively declined > since 15 years ago. I mean, there's 60000+ out there theoretically, and > II+ shared the same components and production lines for a time. Only diff > was the ROMs. Now Rev 0 is where it's at, especially a rare ventless > case. Oh, and late SNs in the 70000 range for some reason still get > $700-800. I don't know why. > > The one thing I can tell you is, if an 'expert' tells you something about > original II production, there's a good chance they are wrong. Some > authoritative sources claimed no Rev 02 boards went into public hands, for > example, but I have one in my SN 16000s machine. Some would claim that > can't be original, but it is.. the date code on it is the same as the > keyboard and case, all right in the range of other 16000 series machines, > which on either side of mine have Rev 03. Apple didn't use the same rev > consistently.. sometimes they just grabbed from the pile. It's kind of a > dogs breakfast after Rev 0. > > My Rev 02 operates no differently, other than Integer BASIC, than my RFI > II+. More and more I'm not finding IIs to be all that amazing or worth > fighting over. A Rev 0, just owing to the few truly unique design > features, is the only one I might want now. > > > > From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 22:54:15 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 22:54:15 -0600 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you can't find them, I'll look Sunday. I'll be out of town for a few days. Paul On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > I am looking for schematics or any documentation for the LA180 > interface for the PDP8/e. A scan would be great. I want to see if I > can use it to interface to a Centronics interface printer. > > -chuck > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Wed Jan 4 01:03:11 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 23:03:11 -0800 Subject: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any) Message-ID: -------- Original message -------- From: "drlegendre ." Date: 2017-01-03 8:03 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any) "Vent-less case" - LoL!! Add some RAM, maybe a DISC-II card and those things overheated even +with+ the vents.. that's why the Cider fan became popular, among other things. When I was in high school, we'd pop the case tops open, and run them that way. Otherwise, they'd overheat and start screwing up after the first or second class period. On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Brad H wrote: > >On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote: > > I brought the RFI thing up with him.? No response.? There is a legit Rev > 1 there too asking $3500.? I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that > interesting anymore, personally.? I think even the legit guy would struggle > to get much above $1500. > >The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed > motherboards now for $1500 (might not >work noted). > > >I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure why > there would be any interest.? I've got one >I bought with the original > packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is rare for my > collecting, but I >don't know what makes any Apple 2 like that > collectible.? As in why are they collectible with low serials / part > >numbers. > > >is there any documentation as to when they were made with those numbers > that would make them significant?? >The numbers made as Raymond said would > make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think unless they have > >some other significance. > > >just curious. > >thanks > >Jim > > When I got into collecting an original Apple II was as rare as hen's teeth > on ebay, etc.? Those got huge bucks, regardless of rev.? Then sellers > caught on and stuff started coming out of closets, basements, estate > sales.? I actually track Apple II sales and prices have massively declined > since 15 years ago.? I mean, there's 60000+ out there theoretically, and > II+ shared the same components and production lines for a time.? Only diff > was the ROMs.? Now Rev 0 is where it's at, especially a rare ventless > case.? Oh, and late SNs in the 70000 range for some reason still get > $700-800.? I don't know why. > > The one thing I can tell you is, if an 'expert' tells you something about > original II production, there's a good chance they are wrong.? Some > authoritative sources claimed no Rev 02 boards went into public hands, for > example, but I have one in my SN 16000s machine.? Some would claim that > can't be original, but it is.. the date code on it is the same as the > keyboard and case, all right in the range of other 16000 series machines, > which on either side of mine have Rev 03.? Apple didn't use the same rev > consistently.. sometimes they just grabbed from the pile.? It's kind of a > dogs breakfast after Rev 0. > > My Rev 02 operates no differently, other than Integer BASIC, than my RFI > II+.? More and more I'm not finding IIs to be all that amazing or worth > fighting over.? A Rev 0, just owing to the few truly unique design > features, is the only one I might want now. > > > > Yeah. ?We were on to IIes when I was in grade school and then Commodores and PCs after that.. original IIs and II+ were long gone. ?I have four units and never have any issue but come to think of it I do tend to run them case top off. ?I imagine other users might have run them with the monitor (another massive heat source) sitting right on top. I think the ventless cases also were made of a weaker plastic that melted and warped just from the heat of the innards. ?The few examples I've seen are almost invariably somewhat concave. ? From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jan 4 02:13:45 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 09:13:45 +0100 Subject: Fix for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus bootstrap on CMD SCSI controllers In-Reply-To: References: <20170103155040.D19C918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170104081345.GA55666@beast.freibergnet.de> David Brownlee wrote: > On 3 January 2017 at 20:11, David Brownlee wrote: > > On 3 January 2017 at 15:50, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> > From: Josh Dersch > >> > >> > Thought I'd share this fix with you all just in case someone in the > >> > future might make use of it. > >> > >> To help disseminate it, I uploaded the fix to the Computer History wiki: > >> > >> http://gunkies.org/wiki/CDU-710/M_disk_controller > >> > >> > >> > From: Lars Brinkhoff > >> > >> > There's no central repository for fixes like these? > >> > >> Well, the CH wiki would be a good place, but creating new accounts on it is > >> proving to be difficult. > >> > >> I'm trying to get ahold of one of the two bureacrats, to make me an admin > >> (I've been one on Wikipedia since the Devonian), so I can create accounts for > >> people, but so far no luck. > >> > >> Noel > > > > Would it make sense for someone to import it to github? > > > > If nothing else it should be be easy enough to start with 0, then > > update to 0a 0b and then 0c. so we have what history is available. > > > > (checks github) > > > > Aha - I see that johnwfinigan has already put up a 0c, though it > > doesn't seem to have the 0, 0a & 0b history > > https://github.com/johnwfinigan/4.3BSD-quasijarus0c/commits/master > > > > Actually I might just do the 0..0c history into a github entry myself, > > then anyone else can just {v,}fork and take it from there as desired :-p > > No sooner said than done :) > > In case it proves of interest to anyone. Happy for it to be forked > (obviously!) or to have patches or pull requests punted back to me > > https://github.com/abs0/4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > David Could please someone check this file: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/VAX/4BSD/Distributions/4.3/qjsrc-se53pra0.tar.gz (or this one: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/VAX/4BSD/Distributions/4.3/qjsrc-se53pra0.tar.Z) against the repo? If I remember correctly it contains some patches from Michael Sokolov not contained in 0c. I've had some conversations with him in the past, had a 0c running on a KA630 System with Emulex UC08 and a 8Gig Tandberg Tape drive. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 02:29:03 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 02:29:03 -0600 Subject: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My first encounter with Apple II was in 1978 or so, when we got 2 units at my school. They were each fitted with a pair of Disc II units, and what must have been an 8" B&W CCTV monitor. Both floppy drives, plus the monitor were heaped atop the rear portion of the Apple II case; drives to the left, monitor to the right, best of my recall. Learned my first BASIC and so forth on those machines. On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 1:03 AM, Brad H wrote: > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "drlegendre ." > Date: 2017-01-03 8:03 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any) > > "Vent-less case" - LoL!! > > Add some RAM, maybe a DISC-II card and those things overheated even +with+ > the vents.. that's why the Cider fan became popular, among other things. > > When I was in high school, we'd pop the case tops open, and run them that > way. Otherwise, they'd overheat and start screwing up after the first or > second class period. > > On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Brad H bettercomputing.net > > wrote: > > > >On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote: > > > I brought the RFI thing up with him. No response. There is a legit > Rev > > 1 there too asking $3500. I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that > > interesting anymore, personally. I think even the legit guy would > struggle > > to get much above $1500. > > >The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed > > motherboards now for $1500 (might not >work noted). > > > > >I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure why > > there would be any interest. I've got one >I bought with the original > > packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is rare for my > > collecting, but I >don't know what makes any Apple 2 like that > > collectible. As in why are they collectible with low serials / part > > >numbers. > > > > >is there any documentation as to when they were made with those numbers > > that would make them significant? >The numbers made as Raymond said > would > > make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think unless they have > > >some other significance. > > > > >just curious. > > >thanks > > >Jim > > > > When I got into collecting an original Apple II was as rare as hen's > teeth > > on ebay, etc. Those got huge bucks, regardless of rev. Then sellers > > caught on and stuff started coming out of closets, basements, estate > > sales. I actually track Apple II sales and prices have massively > declined > > since 15 years ago. I mean, there's 60000+ out there theoretically, and > > II+ shared the same components and production lines for a time. Only > diff > > was the ROMs. Now Rev 0 is where it's at, especially a rare ventless > > case. Oh, and late SNs in the 70000 range for some reason still get > > $700-800. I don't know why. > > > > The one thing I can tell you is, if an 'expert' tells you something about > > original II production, there's a good chance they are wrong. Some > > authoritative sources claimed no Rev 02 boards went into public hands, > for > > example, but I have one in my SN 16000s machine. Some would claim that > > can't be original, but it is.. the date code on it is the same as the > > keyboard and case, all right in the range of other 16000 series machines, > > which on either side of mine have Rev 03. Apple didn't use the same rev > > consistently.. sometimes they just grabbed from the pile. It's kind of a > > dogs breakfast after Rev 0. > > > > My Rev 02 operates no differently, other than Integer BASIC, than my RFI > > II+. More and more I'm not finding IIs to be all that amazing or worth > > fighting over. A Rev 0, just owing to the few truly unique design > > features, is the only one I might want now. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah. We were on to IIes when I was in grade school and then Commodores > and PCs after that.. original IIs and II+ were long gone. I have four > units and never have any issue but come to think of it I do tend to run > them case top off. I imagine other users might have run them with the > monitor (another massive heat source) sitting right on top. > I think the ventless cases also were made of a weaker plastic that melted > and warped just from the heat of the innards. The few examples I've seen > are almost invariably somewhat concave. From abs at absd.org Wed Jan 4 05:19:08 2017 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 11:19:08 +0000 Subject: Fix for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus bootstrap on CMD SCSI controllers In-Reply-To: <20170104081345.GA55666@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20170103155040.D19C918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170104081345.GA55666@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 4 January 2017 at 08:13, Holm Tiffe wrote: > David Brownlee wrote: > >> On 3 January 2017 at 20:11, David Brownlee wrote: >> > On 3 January 2017 at 15:50, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> > From: Josh Dersch >> >> >> >> > Thought I'd share this fix with you all just in case someone in the >> >> > future might make use of it. >> >> >> >> To help disseminate it, I uploaded the fix to the Computer History wiki: >> >> >> >> http://gunkies.org/wiki/CDU-710/M_disk_controller >> >> >> >> >> >> > From: Lars Brinkhoff >> >> >> >> > There's no central repository for fixes like these? >> >> >> >> Well, the CH wiki would be a good place, but creating new accounts on it is >> >> proving to be difficult. >> >> >> >> I'm trying to get ahold of one of the two bureacrats, to make me an admin >> >> (I've been one on Wikipedia since the Devonian), so I can create accounts for >> >> people, but so far no luck. >> >> >> >> Noel >> > >> > Would it make sense for someone to import it to github? >> > >> > If nothing else it should be be easy enough to start with 0, then >> > update to 0a 0b and then 0c. so we have what history is available. >> > >> > (checks github) >> > >> > Aha - I see that johnwfinigan has already put up a 0c, though it >> > doesn't seem to have the 0, 0a & 0b history >> > https://github.com/johnwfinigan/4.3BSD-quasijarus0c/commits/master >> > >> > Actually I might just do the 0..0c history into a github entry myself, >> > then anyone else can just {v,}fork and take it from there as desired :-p >> >> No sooner said than done :) >> >> In case it proves of interest to anyone. Happy for it to be forked >> (obviously!) or to have patches or pull requests punted back to me >> >> https://github.com/abs0/4.3BSD-Quasijarus >> >> David > > Could please someone check this file: > > http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/VAX/4BSD/Distributions/4.3/qjsrc-se53pra0.tar.gz > (or this one: > http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/VAX/4BSD/Distributions/4.3/qjsrc-se53pra0.tar.Z) > against the repo? > > If I remember correctly it contains some patches from Michael Sokolov not > contained in 0c. > I've had some conversations with him in the past, had a 0c running on a > KA630 System with Emulex UC08 and a 8Gig Tandberg Tape drive. Great - will merge them in :) From abs at absd.org Wed Jan 4 05:44:06 2017 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 11:44:06 +0000 Subject: Fix for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus bootstrap on CMD SCSI controllers In-Reply-To: References: <20170103155040.D19C918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170104081345.GA55666@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 4 January 2017 at 11:19, David Brownlee wrote: > On 4 January 2017 at 08:13, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> >> Could please someone check this file: >> >> http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/VAX/4BSD/Distributions/4.3/qjsrc-se53pra0.tar.gz >> (or this one: >> http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/VAX/4BSD/Distributions/4.3/qjsrc-se53pra0.tar.Z) >> against the repo? >> >> If I remember correctly it contains some patches from Michael Sokolov not >> contained in 0c. >> I've had some conversations with him in the past, had a 0c running on a >> KA630 System with Emulex UC08 and a 8Gig Tandberg Tape drive. > > Great - will merge them in :) Thanks, 'tis done. I've excluded the .o files outside of /sys https://github.com/abs0/4.3BSD-Quasijarus/releases David From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 05:46:50 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 04:46:50 -0700 Subject: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any) In-Reply-To: References: <056lkbel28a484oldvl40jfw.1483428177559@email.android.com> <239bff03-7be9-19c9-fa51-a0a9077f3a40@jwsss.com> <023e01d265df$846994f0$8d3cbed0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 9:03 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Add some RAM, maybe a DISC-II card and those things overheated even +with+ > the vents.. that's why the Cider fan became popular, among other things. > My Apple II+ had no fan, but never overheated. I heard a lot of people talk about needing a fan, but had no idea why. For much of its life my Apple II+ contained: 0: language card (16KB DRAM) 1: parallel printer card 2: super serial card 3: Videx 80-column card 4: Microsoft Z-80 softcard 5: homemade HP-IL interface card using HP 1LB3 chip 6: Disk II controller 7: Sorrento Valley 8-inch floppy disk controller and a Videx Keyboard Enhancer II (6502-based replacement for the Apple keyboard encoder, to add lower case, macros, etc.) The only times I had any unreliability were when one DRAM chip went bad, and when the firmware EPROM (2708) on the Videx card went bad. At other points in time it contained * Corvus hard disk interface * Apple Profile hard disk interface * Video Associate Labs VB3 microkeyer (large board in slot 7, cabled to an even larger board over the power supply) If anything was going to make it overheat, I would have bet on the VB3. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 4 05:55:04 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 12:55:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jan 2017, Paul Koning wrote: > The key questions for reconstructing such a device is what the > modulation scheme is, and the pulse pattern. There might be marker > pulses for sector start, for example, or that might just be derived from > a counter in the controller. It's in the maintenance manual. There is one flux change for a one bit, and a flux change to the opposite direction for a zero bit. All timing is derived from the timing tracks S1..S3. The magic box to reconstruct these timing tracks must be synchronized to the base clock coming from the drum (137 kHz on European machines). The base clock is picked up with a special read head, the clock bits are "engraved" into the drum cylinder, so no need to write this clock track. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 4 05:58:43 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 12:58:43 +0100 (CET) Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jan 2017, Al Kossow wrote: > There are running LGP-30s. Should be short work with a digital > oscillosope to capture the flux changes. Hopefully, someone has done > this already. Of course, we did this initially in 1999 when we got our first LGP-30, and a couple of times later on. The last time was a few months ago when we suspected a bad sector/track, but it turned out that there was a 50 Hz hum on the read amplifier supply voltage (an electrolytic cap on a module lost its capacity). We both have analog recordings (from digitizing scopes) and logic analyzer dumps. So concerning the LGP-30, all relevant information about the drum has been saved :-) Christian From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jan 4 06:03:37 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 13:03:37 +0100 Subject: Fix for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus bootstrap on CMD SCSI controllers In-Reply-To: (David Brownlee's message of "Wed, 4 Jan 2017 11:44:06 +0000") References: <20170103155040.D19C918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170104081345.GA55666@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <86pok3hw12.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> I wonder if GNU Emacs 16/17, or Gosling Emacs runs 4.3BSD? I could set up an emulator, but if you guys already have it running, maybe you'd like to give it a shot? GNU Emacs 16.56 and 17.62. https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history/raw/unixpc/ftp.splode.com/pub/users/friedman/emacs/emacs-16.56.tar.gz https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history/raw/unixpc/bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/vax/ultrix/3.0/emacs-17.62.1-ultrix.tar.z Gosling Emacs. These are modified, not sure if they retain support for the Unix systems they originally ran on. https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history/raw/unixpc/der%20Mouse/gosling-emacs.tar https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history/raw/unixpc/reid.org/%7Ebrian/misc/gosling-emacs-1999.tar AT&T UNIX PC binaries for Montgomery Emacs, cpio archive. https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history/blob/unixpc/unixpc.taronga.com/STORE/EMACS%2BIN.gz From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 4 06:05:23 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 13:05:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <586C6C3C.2050001@pico-systems.com> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <586C6C3C.2050001@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote: > So, does the LGP-30 have permanent storage on the drum, or is it erased by a > magnet at every revolution? Yes, the three timing tracks, and the upper half of the instruction counter(!). The upper half containts the number of the following sector and is used to locate the desired sector (either instruction or data). > The G-15 modeled the drum just like a mercury delay line, it had a write > head, a read head and a bar erase magnet on every line, so there was no gap > for the write head to turn on and off between words. The FF that drove the > write amp normally recirculated the data from the read head, except when a > word was being written. Each drum track had a long line (for program and > data) and a short line. Most of the short lines held 4 words, so they were > quickly accessible. One short line only held one word, that was the > accumulator. The LGP-30 is similar, but the timing and long tracks (i.e. main memory) are not recirculating. Hence the reason why a word is limited to 31 bits, although the sector holds 32 bits. The last bit must be zero to reset the read circuitry for the next sector. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 4 06:08:55 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 13:08:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jan 2017, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> I am looking for schematics or any documentation for the LA180 >> interface for the PDP8/e. A scan would be great. I want to see if I >> can use it to interface to a Centronics interface printer. > > I don't have the schematics (I do have an LC8-P somewhere), but I > remember back in the day, people wanted to go the other way - feed a > PC printer w/Centronics interface from a DEC interface. It's not the other way, it's the same way ;-) (attatching a Centronics/PC printer to a DEC interface) Christian From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 4 09:03:35 2017 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 16:03:35 +0100 (MET) Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2017, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jan 2017, Al Kossow wrote: >> There are running LGP-30s. Should be short work with a digital oscillosope .... > We both have analog recordings (from digitizing scopes) and logic analyzer > dumps. So concerning the LGP-30, all relevant information about the drum has > been saved :-) > We have a second LGP-30 drum in our museum. It is damaged by water. (large rusted areas, probably from water between heads and drum). I'm dreaming to wash the brown oxide coating off with a solvent like acetone, polish the drum and repaint it. As magnetic paint I would try iron oxide from audio tapes solved in acetone or some other solvent. Perhaps one could ask an airbrush artist to do this. Rumours say, that the drums originally also were coated "by hand". Rewriting the timing tracks should not be impossible with todays electronics. There is another guy here in germany, who has a LGP-30 with heavily corroded drum. That would be certainly interesting for him. Klemens -- klemens krause Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 4 09:08:41 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 07:08:41 -0800 Subject: ISO small quantity of 3M 3418 40 pin pcb to ribbon male connectors Message-ID: <155790a1-8985-0366-7a49-c753bcc04971@bitsavers.org> I need some of these for making Diablo disk drive cables. Mouser/Digikey, etc. have a minimum buy of 500 (at $9 ea). Picture at http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/140452P/ts0005-pcb-connector.jpg Anyone see any at any surplus places? Online searches are pretty much useless because of the extremely common 40 pin male IDC plug, and my searches in the valley have come up empty. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 09:07:10 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 10:07:10 -0500 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 7:08 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jan 2017, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >>> I want to see if I can use it to interface to a Centronics interface printer. >> >> ... but I remember back in the day, people wanted to go the other way - feed a >> PC printer w/Centronics interface from a DEC interface. > > It's not the other way, it's the same way ;-) (attatching a Centronics/PC > printer to a DEC interface) Ah, yes... I was thinking about a Usenet article from long ago describing the other way. Enjoy! -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 4 09:19:40 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 07:19:40 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/4/17 7:03 AM, Klemens Krause wrote: > We have a second LGP-30 drum in our museum. It is damaged by water. > (large rusted areas, probably from water between heads and drum). > I'm dreaming to wash the brown oxide coating off with a solvent like > acetone, polish the drum and repaint it. > As magnetic paint I would try iron oxide from audio tapes solved in acetone or some other solvent. > Perhaps one could ask an airbrush artist to do this. > Rumours say, that the drums originally also were coated "by hand". > In doing some disk research recently, I came across a footnote for a rather unlikely place to find information on magnetic coatings, which I just got a copy of: Patton "Pigment Handbook Volume II Applications and Markets" 1973 Kurt Kreiselmaier "Pigmentation of Magnetic Tapes" pp 315-329 Which goes through the whole process at a high level of how magnetic tape is made, including aligning all the magnetic particles on the surface. They also mention sperm oil being used as one of the ingredients (I had wondered if there was documentation for that claim), and about two dozen patents at the end. There is also a lot of information in the book on colorizing agents for plastics. I'll put a scan up today under midwesternUniveristy, where Kreiselmaier was an asst prof. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 09:53:57 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:53:57 +0000 Subject: ISO small quantity of 3M 3418 40 pin pcb to ribbon male connectors In-Reply-To: <155790a1-8985-0366-7a49-c753bcc04971@bitsavers.org> References: <155790a1-8985-0366-7a49-c753bcc04971@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I need some of these for making Diablo disk drive cables. Mouser/Digikey, etc. have a > minimum buy of 500 (at $9 ea). > > Picture at http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/140452P/ts0005-pcb-connector.jpg > > Anyone see any at any surplus places? Online searches are pretty much useless because > of the extremely common 40 pin male IDC plug, and my searches in the valley have come > up empty. Farnell _used_ to sell them, but now claim 'no longer manufactured' :-( When I needed one years ago (and RS/Farnell didn't take private orders), I ended up separating the ribbon cable into individual wires and soldering each one into the right PCB hole... -tony From w.f.j.mueller at retro11.de Wed Jan 4 08:29:34 2017 From: w.f.j.mueller at retro11.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:29:34 +0100 Subject: Where are the cctech archives before November 2014 ? Message-ID: Hi, after I remarked in November last year that the cctech archives have been `lost` Jay West responded > Walter.... > > I think you need to ask a few questions before you toss that kind of nonsense out. > > For your info - this is a hobby. It is done in spare time. The time period you > peak of - the archives have NOT been lost. Because unlike what you intone - we > do care. Those archives are safe and sound, just not in a publicly accessible > format. One of our kind list members has been working for eons to reconstruct > the publicly viewable content from them. > > I will tell him that you are going to volunteer to help him. Well, it is certainly true that the archives visible under http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/ only go back to November 2014. Thanks to the Internet Archive there is a full backup of the older archive sections readily available online. Simply open http://web.archive.org/web/20141025062159/http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/ and one gets all archives from October 2014 back to February 2005. There I found the postings I was looking for, and updated my links to use http://web.archive.org/. That's all. So in a wider sense nothing is lost, one has to search in the right place. With best regards, Walter From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jan 4 09:56:18 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:56:18 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/4/17 10:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 1/4/17 7:03 AM, Klemens Krause wrote: > >> We have a second LGP-30 drum in our museum. It is damaged by water. >> (large rusted areas, probably from water between heads and drum). >> I'm dreaming to wash the brown oxide coating off with a solvent like >> acetone, polish the drum and repaint it. >> As magnetic paint I would try iron oxide from audio tapes solved in acetone or some other solvent. >> Perhaps one could ask an airbrush artist to do this. >> Rumours say, that the drums originally also were coated "by hand". >> The was a post application "calendaring" process to get a uniform smooth surface. > In doing some disk research recently, I came across a footnote for a rather unlikely > place to find information on magnetic coatings, which I just got a copy of: > > Patton "Pigment Handbook Volume II Applications and Markets" 1973 > > Kurt Kreiselmaier "Pigmentation of Magnetic Tapes" pp 315-329 > > Which goes through the whole process at a high level of how magnetic tape is made, > including aligning all the magnetic particles on the surface. They also mention sperm > oil being used as one of the ingredients (I had wondered if there was documentation > for that claim), and about two dozen patents at the end. Sperm oil was a high quality wax/lubricant. Its low viscosity and high resistance to oxidation were its high points. Its likely use was as a plasticize the binder and surface. > There is also a lot of information in the book on colorizing agents for plastics. > > I'll put a scan up today under midwesternUniveristy, where Kreiselmaier was an asst prof. > > From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 4 11:10:16 2017 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 18:10:16 +0100 (MET) Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2017, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 1/4/17 7:03 AM, Klemens Krause wrote: > >> We have a second LGP-30 drum in our museum. It is damaged by water. > ... > > In doing some disk research recently, I came across a footnote for a rather unlikely > place to find information on magnetic coatings, which I just got a copy of: > > Patton "Pigment Handbook Volume II Applications and Markets" 1973 > > Kurt Kreiselmaier "Pigmentation of Magnetic Tapes" pp 315-329 Nice, the book is available in our library here at the university. I'll get it tomorrow from the magazine. :_ Klemens -- klemens krause Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 4 12:01:52 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:01:52 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <586C6C3C.2050001@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <586D3890.4080104@pico-systems.com> On 01/04/2017 06:05 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > The LGP-30 is similar, but the timing and long tracks > (i.e. main memory) are not recirculating. Hence the reason > why a word is limited to 31 bits, although the sector > holds 32 bits. The last bit must be zero to reset the read > circuitry for the next sector. > So, there is no inter-word gap to accommodate the write head switching? I guess if everything is hard-synched to the clock track, then you can get away without that. Interesting! Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 4 12:06:06 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:06:06 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> On 01/04/2017 09:03 AM, Klemens Krause wrote: > > >> We both have analog recordings (from digitizing scopes) >> and logic analyzer dumps. So concerning the LGP-30, all >> relevant information about the drum has been saved :-) >> > > We have a second LGP-30 drum in our museum. It is damaged > by water. > (large rusted areas, probably from water between heads and > drum). > I'm dreaming to wash the brown oxide coating off with a > solvent like > acetone, polish the drum and repaint it. > As magnetic paint I would try iron oxide from audio tapes > solved in acetone or some other solvent. > Perhaps one could ask an airbrush artist to do this. > Rumours say, that the drums originally also were coated > "by hand". > Rewriting the timing tracks should not be impossible with > todays > electronics. > There is another guy here in germany, who has a LGP-30 > with heavily > corroded drum. That would be certainly interesting for him. > Previous messages suggested the LGP-30 drum was plated with nickel. If there are amateur astronomers with a vacuum evaporator, it might be possible to get them to adjust their setup slightly to vacuum evaporate nickel on your drum, after refinishing the base. You'd need a rig to slowly turn the drum while evaporating the nickel. Some other research labs at universities might have the necessary equipment, also - check with the Physics department (or electrical engineering). Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 4 12:09:29 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 12:09:29 -0600 Subject: ISO small quantity of 3M 3418 40 pin pcb to ribbon male connectors In-Reply-To: <155790a1-8985-0366-7a49-c753bcc04971@bitsavers.org> References: <155790a1-8985-0366-7a49-c753bcc04971@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <586D3A59.5010401@pico-systems.com> On 01/04/2017 09:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I need some of these for making Diablo disk drive cables. Mouser/Digikey, etc. have a > minimum buy of 500 (at $9 ea). > > Picture at http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/140452P/ts0005-pcb-connector.jpg > > Anyone see any at any surplus places? Online searches are pretty much useless because > of the extremely common 40 pin male IDC plug, and my searches in the valley have come > up empty. > > > Hmmm, Digi-Key used to make cables to order with this type of termination. Surprised they don't have the parts anymore. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 13:18:55 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 14:18:55 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4FB67966-2CDA-4A8B-8BE4-493D404C08DF@comcast.net> > On Jan 4, 2017, at 1:06 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> ... >> > Previous messages suggested the LGP-30 drum was plated with nickel. If there are amateur astronomers with a vacuum evaporator, it might be possible to get them to adjust their setup slightly to vacuum evaporate nickel on your drum, after refinishing the base. You'd need a rig to slowly turn the drum while evaporating the nickel. Some other research labs at universities might have the necessary equipment, also - check with the Physics department (or electrical engineering). Nice idea. You'd want to check that the same filament works with nickel. Standard mirror coating is aluminum, using a tungsten filament. Some other metals don't work that way because the molten metal doesn't adhere to tungsten (silver is an example). The procedure, including the filament to use, is described very nicely in "Procedures in Experimental Physics" by John Strong. It was reprinted by Lindsay Publications, now out of business but it might still be available. Great book, also for some other crafts such as glass working (useful for those who want to build their own vacuum tubes). paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 13:48:55 2017 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 13:48:55 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > Previous messages suggested the LGP-30 drum was plated with nickel. If > there are amateur astronomers with a vacuum evaporator, it might be > possible to get them to adjust their setup slightly to vacuum evaporate > nickel on your drum, after refinishing the base. You'd need a rig to > slowly turn the drum while evaporating the nickel. Some other research labs > at universities might have the necessary equipment, also - check with the > Physics department (or electrical engineering). Will the desired thickness be enough with sputtering or evaporation? For modern hard drives, sure, but my gut instinct is that you'd want a thicker coating on the drum. I'd suggest sputtering over evaporation since it will probably adhere to the surface better. I'd think nickel electroplating would take less time and effort, though. Heck, I have about 4 L of nickel plating solution as well as an anode, if someone wants to give it a shot. Kyle From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 4 14:30:40 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 12:30:40 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 01/04/2017 11:48 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Will the desired thickness be enough with sputtering or evaporation? > For modern hard drives, sure, but my gut instinct is that you'd want > a thicker coating on the drum. I'd suggest sputtering over > evaporation since it will probably adhere to the surface better. I'd > think nickel electroplating would take less time and effort, though. > > Heck, I have about 4 L of nickel plating solution as well as an > anode, if someone wants to give it a shot. Thinking more about this a bit... "Modern" aluminum-substrate plated media uses a layer of electroless nickel, which is then polished, then plated with a layer of electroless cobalt. I don't know if cobalt can be vacuum-sputtered onto nickel. Lubrication layers are often added in the case of Winchester drives. I suspect that the LGP30 drum heads require a substantial signal, so perhaps 5 micron cobalt plating wouldn't work. In any case, the low recording density might be better realized through a traditional iron-oxide-in-binder coating. --Chuck From chd at chdickman.com Wed Jan 4 14:39:30 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:39:30 -0500 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 7:08 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jan 2017, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >>> >>> I am looking for schematics or any documentation for the LA180 >>> interface for the PDP8/e. A scan would be great. I want to see if I >>> can use it to interface to a Centronics interface printer. >> >> >> I don't have the schematics (I do have an LC8-P somewhere), but I >> remember back in the day, people wanted to go the other way - feed a >> PC printer w/Centronics interface from a DEC interface. > > > It's not the other way, it's the same way ;-) (attatching a Centronics/PC > printer to a DEC interface) Yes, I want to connected an OKIDATA Microline82A to the PDP8/e. Looking at the LA180 manual's description of the LC8-P interface, it is pretty close to Centronics. I expect it is more than just a cable, though, because there is also an OMNIBUS Centronics printer interface board (LS8-E). That schematic is on bitsavers. I also have an LE8-E (M841), but that only provides 7 data bits to the printer. -chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 14:50:31 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:50:31 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <43753080-ACA0-4BC7-8473-55BD2D8840A3@comcast.net> > On Jan 4, 2017, at 2:48 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >> Previous messages suggested the LGP-30 drum was plated with nickel. If >> there are amateur astronomers with a vacuum evaporator, it might be >> possible to get them to adjust their setup slightly to vacuum evaporate >> nickel on your drum, after refinishing the base. You'd need a rig to >> slowly turn the drum while evaporating the nickel. Some other research labs >> at universities might have the necessary equipment, also - check with the >> Physics department (or electrical engineering). > > > Will the desired thickness be enough with sputtering or evaporation? For > modern hard drives, sure, but my gut instinct is that you'd want a thicker > coating on the drum. I'd suggest sputtering over evaporation since it will > probably adhere to the surface better. I'd think nickel electroplating > would take less time and effort, though. Electroplating sounds ok, I don't know about procedures. You'd have to be careful that the electrolyte doesn't damage the drum body. Evaporation and sputtering are used to make well controlled thin films, but there's nothing I can think of that limits how long you continue. A mirror is coated only to the point that its reflection coefficient reaches the limit of the metal used, more is not useful. But here you could just keep going however long you need. As for adhering, both should produce good coatings if the substrate is clean. I remember a test for good evaporative coating technique: coat a test piece, then try to rip off the coating with scotch tape. It shouldn't be affected at all by that test. There are reasons for using sputtering vs. evaporation, but I don't remember them. I think the Strong book I cited discusses the subject. paul From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 14:59:32 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 12:59:32 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/04/2017 11:48 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > > Will the desired thickness be enough with sputtering or evaporation? > > For modern hard drives, sure, but my gut instinct is that you'd want > > a thicker coating on the drum. I'd suggest sputtering over > > evaporation since it will probably adhere to the surface better. I'd > > think nickel electroplating would take less time and effort, though. > > > > Heck, I have about 4 L of nickel plating solution as well as an > > anode, if someone wants to give it a shot. > > > Thinking more about this a bit... > > "Modern" aluminum-substrate plated media uses a layer of electroless > nickel, which is then polished, then plated with a layer of electroless > cobalt. I don't know if cobalt can be vacuum-sputtered onto nickel. > > Lubrication layers are often added in the case of Winchester drives. > > I suspect that the LGP30 drum heads require a substantial signal, so > perhaps 5 micron cobalt plating wouldn't work. In any case, the low > recording density might be better realized through a traditional > iron-oxide-in-binder coating. > > I am not a EE, but in a ignorant attempt at of the box thinking..... Make a new drum out of AL, glue strips of COTS magnetic tape to it. -- Charles From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 12:33:06 2017 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 10:33:06 -0800 Subject: ISO small quantity of 3M 3418 40 pin pcb to ribbon male connectors In-Reply-To: <586D3A59.5010401@pico-systems.com> References: <155790a1-8985-0366-7a49-c753bcc04971@bitsavers.org> <586D3A59.5010401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I know I've bought these in the past 3 years at Excess Solutions (www. *excesssolutions*.com). They used to be close to where I work in Milpitas but now they're south of downtown San Jose in a trucking warehouse and not as easy to visit. Marc On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 01/04/2017 09:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> I need some of these for making Diablo disk drive cables. Mouser/Digikey, >> etc. have a >> minimum buy of 500 (at $9 ea). >> >> Picture at http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/140452P/ts0005-pcb-connec >> tor.jpg >> >> Anyone see any at any surplus places? Online searches are pretty much >> useless because >> of the extremely common 40 pin male IDC plug, and my searches in the >> valley have come >> up empty. >> >> >> >> Hmmm, Digi-Key used to make cables to order with this type of > termination. Surprised they don't have the parts anymore. > > Jon > From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jan 4 13:02:28 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 14:02:28 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/17 1:06 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 01/04/2017 09:03 AM, Klemens Krause wrote: >> >> >>> We both have analog recordings (from digitizing scopes) and logic >>> analyzer dumps. So concerning the LGP-30, all relevant information >>> about the drum has been saved :-) >>> >> >> We have a second LGP-30 drum in our museum. It is damaged by water. >> (large rusted areas, probably from water between heads and drum). >> I'm dreaming to wash the brown oxide coating off with a solvent like >> acetone, polish the drum and repaint it. >> As magnetic paint I would try iron oxide from audio tapes solved in >> acetone or some other solvent. >> Perhaps one could ask an airbrush artist to do this. >> Rumours say, that the drums originally also were coated "by hand". >> Rewriting the timing tracks should not be impossible with todays >> electronics. >> There is another guy here in germany, who has a LGP-30 with heavily >> corroded drum. That would be certainly interesting for him. >> > Previous messages suggested the LGP-30 drum was plated with nickel. If > there are amateur astronomers with a vacuum evaporator, it might be > possible to get them to adjust their setup slightly to vacuum > evaporate nickel on your drum, after refinishing the base. You'd need > a rig to slowly turn the drum while evaporating the nickel. Some other > research labs at universities might have the necessary equipment, also > - check with the Physics department (or electrical engineering). > > Jon > Its very likely the plating was done using more conventional bath electroplating. Everything about the LGP-30 screams use of technology that was well known and not expensive. It in may ways resembles the PDP-8, linc, and others in the attempt to minimize the total hardware to get to minimal computing. Thing like FlipFlop registers and indirect addressing modes were left out to keep the total tube(and diode) logic to a minimum. A brief look at the manuals and circuits used makes it clear to keep it small, minimize power, keep it as reliable as possible with tubes(valves) everything possible was left out. The 32nd bit missing (gap) was to likely force a simple case of word end boundary (by oneshot time out of multiple track coincidence). From a make it run again the drum and its heads are only one pair of issues to be examined. The power supplies (dried out caps!) and coupling or interstage capacitor condition as well as general tube status plus the usual problems with wires and connectors including the 400 odd tube sockets. Keep in mind that generation of machine was not so much logic level as pulse presence or absence to be a logical 1 or 0. So there were few places that had DC static states. The very next generation of tube and early transistor machines would have registers and static or quasi-static states. As to the clock track its only issue is that the present electronics does not ever write it only reads it. So the only issue there is to use the existing head or a data head to write a new track and its only a matter of having enough pulses in the Drum rotation time and insuring the correct gaps if any. That would be trivial hardware to create and keep handy as it can be the very latest tech. Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 4 16:41:53 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 14:41:53 -0800 Subject: ISO small quantity of 3M 3418 40 pin pcb to ribbon male connectors In-Reply-To: References: <155790a1-8985-0366-7a49-c753bcc04971@bitsavers.org> <586D3A59.5010401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/17 10:33 AM, Marc Howard wrote: > I know I've bought these in the past 3 years at Excess Solutions (www. > *excesssolutions*.com). > I'll check again, but I didn't see them. They have turned a lot of stock, or didn't put it out after they moved to San Jose I may have to ask Mike if he's seen any. From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 17:24:50 2017 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:24:50 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2017, at 1:02 PM, allison wrote: > On 1/4/17 1:06 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 01/04/2017 09:03 AM, Klemens Krause wrote: >>> >>> >>>> We both have analog recordings (from digitizing scopes) and logic analyzer dumps. So concerning the LGP-30, all relevant information about the drum has been saved :-) >>>> >>> >>> We have a second LGP-30 drum in our museum. It is damaged by water. >>> (large rusted areas, probably from water between heads and drum). >>> I'm dreaming to wash the brown oxide coating off with a solvent like >>> acetone, polish the drum and repaint it. >>> As magnetic paint I would try iron oxide from audio tapes solved in acetone or some other solvent. >>> Perhaps one could ask an airbrush artist to do this. >>> Rumours say, that the drums originally also were coated "by hand". >>> Rewriting the timing tracks should not be impossible with todays >>> electronics. >>> There is another guy here in germany, who has a LGP-30 with heavily >>> corroded drum. That would be certainly interesting for him. >>> >> Previous messages suggested the LGP-30 drum was plated with nickel. If there are amateur astronomers with a vacuum evaporator, it might be possible to get them to adjust their setup slightly to vacuum evaporate nickel on your drum, after refinishing the base. You'd need a rig to slowly turn the drum while evaporating the nickel. Some other research labs at universities might have the necessary equipment, also - check with the Physics department (or electrical engineering). >> >> Jon I'm far from an expert, but it certainly looks like an oxide coating to me. I'm reminded of the folklore when IBM was developing the RAMAC and finally had success with a magnetic paint mixed up outside of house. In that case it was easy to apply...just spin up the disc and pour! There are a couple of 1" long spots where the coating was scraped away and the heads relocated. Given what I've read about the Control Data badged LGP-30's, this was likely a refurb sold in the 60's. The replacement heads certainly support that. Below are some pics of my drum; the tonewheel clock generator can be seen at the far right. The groove just to the left of that leaving a single band in the mag material is too perfect to be a goof, but at the 0.4" head offset spacing, is too narrow to contain more than one track. -C http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum.jpg http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum2.jpg From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jan 4 17:58:18 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:58:18 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/4/2017 7:56 AM, allison wrote: > Sperm oil was a high quality wax/lubricant. Its low viscosity and high > resistance to oxidation > were its high points. Its likely use was as a plasticize the binder > and surface. As far as I know it is illegal to purchase or transfer now. Not to possess. I have the supply my father had because he was a watchmaker. he had bought a lifetime supply in the 40's and it is still 90% there. But I can't transfer it. He used a very small drop in a small dimple holder with a cap over it for about a year. A sharp needle provided all that was placed on watch bearings. I'm sure it would be ideal for this application, but can only agree with Allison about the properties of it now days. thanks Jim From shumaker at att.net Wed Jan 4 19:52:48 2017 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:52:48 -0800 Subject: ISO small quantity of 3M 3418 40 pin pcb to ribbon male connectors In-Reply-To: <586D3A59.5010401@pico-systems.com> References: <155790a1-8985-0366-7a49-c753bcc04971@bitsavers.org> <586D3A59.5010401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/2017 10:09 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 01/04/2017 09:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I need some of these for making Diablo disk drive cables. >> Mouser/Digikey, etc. have a >> minimum buy of 500 (at $9 ea). >> >> Picture at >> http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/140452P/ts0005-pcb-connector.jpg >> >> Anyone see any at any surplus places? Online searches are pretty much >> useless because >> of the extremely common 40 pin male IDC plug, and my searches in the >> valley have come >> up empty. >> >> >> > Hmmm, Digi-Key used to make cables to order with this type of > termination. Surprised they don't have the parts anymore. > > Jon > Weird Stuff in San Jose commonly has a variety of floppy cables. I usually deal in person but you might give them a call or leave a query on their web page steve From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 4 20:56:50 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 20:56:50 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <586DB5F2.3070701@pico-systems.com> On 01/04/2017 05:24 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > > I'm far from an expert, but it certainly looks like an oxide coating to me. I'm reminded of the folklore when IBM was developing the RAMAC and finally had success with a magnetic paint mixed up outside of house. In that case it was easy to apply...just spin up the disc and pour! > > > > http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum.jpg > http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum2.jpg Yup, that looks pretty "oxidey" all right! Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 4 21:03:32 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 21:03:32 -0600 Subject: ISO small quantity of 3M 3418 40 pin pcb to ribbon male connectors In-Reply-To: <586D3A59.5010401@pico-systems.com> References: <155790a1-8985-0366-7a49-c753bcc04971@bitsavers.org> <586D3A59.5010401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <586DB784.80406@pico-systems.com> On 01/04/2017 12:09 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 01/04/2017 09:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I need some of these for making Diablo disk drive cables. >> Mouser/Digikey, etc. have a >> minimum buy of 500 (at $9 ea). >> >> Picture at >> http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/140452P/ts0005-pcb-connector.jpg >> >> >> Anyone see any at any surplus places? Online searches are >> pretty much useless because >> of the extremely common 40 pin male IDC plug, and my >> searches in the valley have come >> up empty. >> >> >> > Hmmm, Digi-Key used to make cables to order with this type > of termination. Surprised they don't have the parts anymore. > > Jon > Yup, they still got em! I had to look in the last paper catalog the sent in 2011. The part number at Digi-Key is CPC40S, no idea if the row spacing matches the board you need, but they have them in stock. Jon From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jan 4 16:43:36 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 17:43:36 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <43753080-ACA0-4BC7-8473-55BD2D8840A3@comcast.net> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> <43753080-ACA0-4BC7-8473-55BD2D8840A3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <85cae24a-455a-d112-84d5-9f734db8db57@verizon.net> On 01/04/2017 03:50 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Jan 4, 2017, at 2:48 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> Previous messages suggested the LGP-30 drum was plated with nickel. If >>> there are amateur astronomers with a vacuum evaporator, it might be >>> possible to get them to adjust their setup slightly to vacuum evaporate >>> nickel on your drum, after refinishing the base. You'd need a rig to >>> slowly turn the drum while evaporating the nickel. Some other research labs >>> at universities might have the necessary equipment, also - check with the >>> Physics department (or electrical engineering). >> >> Will the desired thickness be enough with sputtering or evaporation? For >> modern hard drives, sure, but my gut instinct is that you'd want a thicker >> coating on the drum. I'd suggest sputtering over evaporation since it will >> probably adhere to the surface better. I'd think nickel electroplating >> would take less time and effort, though. > Electroplating sounds ok, I don't know about procedures. You'd have to be careful that the electrolyte doesn't damage the drum body. > > Evaporation and sputtering are used to make well controlled thin films, but there's nothing I can think of that limits how long you continue. A mirror is coated only to the point that its reflection coefficient reaches the limit of the metal used, more is not useful. But here you could just keep going however long you need. > > As for adhering, both should produce good coatings if the substrate is clean. I remember a test for good evaporative coating technique: coat a test piece, then try to rip off the coating with scotch tape. It shouldn't be affected at all by that test. > > There are reasons for using sputtering vs. evaporation, but I don't remember them. I think the Strong book I cited discusses the subject. Several things. Getting aluminum clean and keeping it so means NO oxygen, it develops a oxide coating really fast. Other metal might be used but your generally limited to non magnetic substrates (aluminum, glass, brass, bronze). Also the thickness of the magnetic media, rate of travel (speed relative to the head), head distance and gap are all interrelated. For heads of that era the gap will be wide, the media thick, and the rate of travel high. Those factors determine bit density (likely very low) and the data rate is really low as the machine is slow. If the drum is scratched then moving heads one gap width right or left should do fine. Plated media doesn't help with this save for its mechanically easier to do. Allison > paul > > > From djg at pdp8online.com Wed Jan 4 19:21:25 2017 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 20:21:25 -0500 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics Message-ID: <20170105012125.GA4655@hugin2.pdp8online.com> I would also be interested in schematics. I have just started looking at this board to try to use it with a ODEC/Data 100 chain printer. > Looking at the LA180 manual's description of the LC8-P interface, it > is pretty close to Centronics. I expect it is more than just a cable, > though, because there is also an OMNIBUS Centronics printer interface > board (LS8-E). That schematic is on bitsavers. > It looked to me the LA180 protocol is demand and busy high when ok to send character then the data is strobed in with data strobe pulse. Centronics is handshaked with strobe and busy so a little different. The board is simple enough that tracing it out is feasible if needed. Haven't plugged in the board yet to see how the signals behave. Still working on the printer. From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jan 4 21:09:44 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 22:09:44 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <586DB5F2.3070701@pico-systems.com> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> <586DB5F2.3070701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 01/04/2017 09:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 01/04/2017 05:24 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: >> >> I'm far from an expert, but it certainly looks like an oxide coating >> to me. I'm reminded of the folklore when IBM was developing the RAMAC >> and finally had success with a magnetic paint mixed up outside of >> house. In that case it was easy to apply...just spin up the disc and >> pour! >> >> >> >> http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum.jpg >> http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum2.jpg > Yup, that looks pretty "oxidey" all right! > > Jon > Based on more than a few drums and disks i've seen its oxide, not plated. I'd also say if the scratches are not deep a little polishing may be the trick. I'D do nothing until it can be run up (remove all dust and gunk) and then look at the output of the heads. Likely you don't have to write clock tracks if there is mechanical (tone wheel). If so that means the clock is created there so its always in sync with drum rotation. That's one less headache. I have a hunch that the data/instruction tracks are not pre-recorded and can be over wrote and replaced at will but there is where the manuals and a thorough understanding of the machine and its logic is needed. IF the data tracks are created by other timing (clock and logic) then erasing a track is safe (check manuals) and then you can write a track with F and 2F and see if it reads out uniformly if it does that head is good and the media under it is. Step and repeat, any that fail or have to many drop outs or other errors need care, relocate first and try again. This is about what old school tricks need to be found out about and relearned. The closest analogy is how to steam and repair a coal fired locomotive. There is hand me down knowledge that will be needed and learned or even regenerated. A very interesting project. Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 5 00:00:50 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 22:00:50 -0800 Subject: ISO small quantity of 3M 3418 40 pin pcb to ribbon male connectors In-Reply-To: <586DB784.80406@pico-systems.com> References: <155790a1-8985-0366-7a49-c753bcc04971@bitsavers.org> <586D3A59.5010401@pico-systems.com> <586DB784.80406@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/17 7:03 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > The part number at Digi-Key is > CPC40S thanks! I didn't know what other vendors still made them besides 3M and they are 1/3 the price. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 5 00:04:38 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 22:04:38 -0800 Subject: ISO small quantity of 3M 3418 40 pin pcb to ribbon male connectors In-Reply-To: References: <155790a1-8985-0366-7a49-c753bcc04971@bitsavers.org> <586D3A59.5010401@pico-systems.com> <586DB784.80406@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: CW Industries part number is CWR-142-40-0203 On 1/4/17 10:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 1/4/17 7:03 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> The part number at Digi-Key is >> CPC40S > > thanks! I didn't know what other vendors still made them besides 3M > and they are 1/3 the price. > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 5 00:51:22 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 22:51:22 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum In-Reply-To: <586BE964.8070805@pico-systems.com> References: <586BE964.8070805@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: The biggest single plated-media drum that I ever saw was a Univac FASTRAND II dual-drum unit (counter-rotating) that used movable heads in an interesting mechanical setup using levers, linkages and solenoids to decode an 8421-type binary position to a physical position of the heads. Said unit was hooked to a Univac 1108. Univac used drums well into the 1970s, IIRC. I think the FASTRAND II positioning mechanism was described in a 1960s FJCC report. Said FASTRAND was equipped with microphones (known as a "ping" detector) to detect when heads hit the plated surface. I suspect that an oxide-coated drum would have turned the coating to brown dust in a short time.https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/historydisplays/FourthFloor/ReportsAndViewer/Reports/MagneticDrum.pdf The one I witnessed in operation was installed on the second floor of a rather elderly building bordered by a busy street. One of the problems dogging the installation is that the heads would "ping" every time a big truck passed by the building. ----------------------- Having bored everyone with an old story, I did a little patent prowling... http://www.google.com.gh/patents/US2820688 describes the manufacture of a drum unit. Iron oxide in a shellac carrier spread on a drum surface, then machined to the desired profile appears to be described. http://www.google.com.gh/patents/US2771595 describes the basic idea of using a magnetic drum to store digital information. https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/historydisplays/FourthFloor/ReportsAndViewer/Reports/MagneticDrum.pdf is an interesting document from ERA describing the magnetic drum One of the issues addressed by several patents is the stability of the bearings--apparently, slight irregularity in bearing construction (or wear) can result in disaster. Something to bear in mind. If one were re-working an old drum, the traditional way of getting a smooth even surface is to plate with electroless nickel, then machine and polish the surface to the desired finish. This works for any substrate, as electroless nickel is an auto-catalytic process not dependent on the electrical properties of the substrate. FWIW, Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 5 03:41:18 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:41:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2017, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > I'm far from an expert, but it certainly looks like an oxide coating to > me. I'm reminded of the folklore when IBM was developing the RAMAC and Yes, it is ferric oxide. > http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum.jpg > http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum2.jpg Hmm, your drum doesn't look to bad after all. In your case I would clean all the heads, and the surface with a soft cloth and give it a try. For basic testing you only need one data track plus the register and timing tracks. Christian From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 5 03:44:07 2017 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:44:07 +0100 (MET) Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2017, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > > On Jan 4, 2017, at 1:02 PM, allison wrote: > >> On 1/4/17 1:06 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> Previous messages suggested the LGP-30 drum was plated with nickel. Nope. I ever wrote about iron oxide. > > I'm far from an expert, but it certainly looks like an oxide coating > to me. I'm reminded of the folklore when IBM was developing the RAMAC Yes, I agree. ... > In that case it was easy to apply...just spin up the disc and pour! > Good idea, this should work with the drum too. > There are a couple of 1" long spots where the coating was scraped away and the heads relocated. Given what I've read about the Control Data badged LGP-30's, this was likely a refurb sold in the 60's. The replacement heads certainly support that. Below are some pics of my drum; the tonewheel clock generator can be seen at the far right. The groove just to the left of that leaving a single band in the mag material is too perfect to be a goof, but at the 0.4" head offset spacing, is too narrow to contain more than one track. -C > > http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum.jpg > http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum2.jpg >From the fotos your drum looks better than our working one, with the exception of the large engraving on the right side. Especially the left part, were the registers are located looks very good. On our drum are also some dark traces without showing the Al of the drum. I can't see the 1" long spots you're speaking from. How much is "a couple"? In your place I would try to revive the drum track by track: Looking for the registers, find out if the timing tracks S1 to S3 are ok, then looking for tracks 0 to 3 in which the loader, program 10.4 sits, then track 63, which is used for booting the loader. Even if you have only some more tracks you can run simple hand coded programs on your machine. Just think at a KIM-1 single board computer with 256 bytes of RAM: People had fun with it! :-) Cleaning the originally coated drum? I'm not sure how to do this. We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning spirit and paper towels. They have similar technology: Al-base with iron oxide coating. We rubbed away thick black traces from occasional head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this torture. In every case the disks were 100% error free after this. But in this case the risk ist low: the disks had errors and if we ever would have washed away the oxide coating, we have enough other disks to experiment with other solvents. The LGP-30 drum is much more singular, so we never tried to clean the surface to avoid the risk of cleaning away the coating. Klemens (p.s.: got the book, an interesting lecture) -- klemens krause Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 5 07:22:05 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:22:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) Message-ID: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Klemens Krause > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning spirit > and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from occasional > head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this torture. I am about to get a large batch of RK05 packs, so I am interested in the details of this. First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After poking around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's the name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like it might be acetone? Noel From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 07:35:36 2017 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 07:35:36 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 3:44 AM, Klemens Krause < krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > >> >> http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum.jpg >> http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum2.jpg >> > > From the fotos your drum looks better than our working one, with > the exception of the large engraving on the right side. Especially > the left part, were the registers are located looks very good. > On our drum are also some dark traces without showing the Al of > the drum. > That is encouraging news. The engraving on the right appears to be machined into the drum as it's much deeper than the oxide finish and completely uniform. I'm not sure what purpose it serves, if any. I've adjusted the 7 heads along the left side as one was just making contact. > I can't see the 1" long spots you're speaking from. How much is > "a couple"? > There's a total of 3 such marks on the drum not visible in the photo, 2 caused at some point in the past as the heads that caused them were relocated from those tracks, and one short scratch caused by me after having removed all but the last head bar assembly and checking for drag. It seems each bar had at least one, if not more, heads in contact with the drum, which I was not expecting. > In your place I would try to revive the drum track by track: > Looking for the registers, find out if the timing tracks S1 to S3 > are ok, then looking for tracks 0 to 3 in which the loader, > program 10.4 sits, then track 63, which is used for booting the > loader. Even if you have only some more tracks you can run simple > hand coded programs on your machine. Just think at a KIM-1 single > board computer with 256 bytes of RAM: People had fun with it! :-) > I think this is a good idea. I hadn't planned on running anything other than hand coded programs, and having at least several tracks functional will help me in troubleshooting the rest of the machine. I can then transition to a solid state mem later. > > Cleaning the originally coated drum? I'm not sure how to do this. > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning > spirit and paper towels. They have similar technology: Al-base > with iron oxide coating. We rubbed away thick black traces from > occasional head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating > with this torture. In every case the disks were 100% error free > after this. But in this case the risk ist low: the disks had errors > and if we ever would have washed away the oxide coating, we have > enough other disks to experiment with other solvents. > The LGP-30 drum is much more singular, so we never tried to clean > the surface to avoid the risk of cleaning away the coating. > I used a clean, soft, paper towel without any solvent or liquid and gently ran it from left to right while rotating the drum. This picked up a little fine oxide, but whoever serviced the drum last did an excellent job of sealing it. After they replaced the plastic cover they ran strips of electrical tape (which was still firmly stuck) down both sides. The air filter is also still present on the machine which is a good sign. -C From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 5 07:55:13 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 13:55:13 +0000 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 05/01/2017 13:22, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Klemens Krause > > > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning spirit > > and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from occasional > > head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this torture. > First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation > into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After poking > around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's the > name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like it > might be acetone? I'm sure it's not ! :-) He'll mean the sort of alcohol used in a spirit burner. The UK equivalent is "methylated spirit" - primarily ethanol but with a (un)healthy dose of methanol to make it unfit to drink (and hence exempt from excise duty) plus pyridine (and small amounts of other things) to give it an unpleasant taste and odour, and some methyl purple dye to make it obvious at a glance. Denatured alcohol, in other words. I don't think the German (EU) version has the dye although it does contain IPA and MEK. For cleaning, because of that dye, isopropyl alcohol (IPA, isopropanol) is often a better choice in the UK. In the US, "rubbing alcohol" is mostly denatured ethanol (though "isopropyl rubbing alcohol" is mostly IPA), but always contains other chemicals as well. Either should do for cleaning a disk. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 5 08:40:34 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 06:40:34 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <348402da-bb60-8854-0f69-f9a90e5c971e@bitsavers.org> isopropyl alcohol works. TFE is better, if you have some stashed. If you can find them anywhere, Texwipe made a plastic wand that looks like a tongue depressor with a slit down the middle and a lint free sleeve called the Texsleeve (tx300 sleeve, tx800 wand) that you would use to clean heads Minor head crashes leave a tar-like residue that you need to remove. A pack inspector is a handy thing to have (spinle with microscope and illuminator on the rack and pinion) to look for surface damage. On 1/5/17 5:22 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Klemens Krause > > > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning spirit > > and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from occasional > > head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this torture. > > I am about to get a large batch of RK05 packs, so I am interested in the > details of this. > > First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation > into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After poking > around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's the > name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like it > might be acetone? > > Noel > From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 09:15:30 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 16:15:30 +0100 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this the printset you are looking for? https://imgur.com/a/4uDS4 https://imgur.com/a/mDvhD Sorry for top-posting. I hope the links are ok. Posting from the phone... onsdag 4 januari 2017 skrev Charles Dickman : > On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 7:08 AM, Christian Corti > > wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Jan 2017, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Charles Dickman > wrote: > >>> > >>> I am looking for schematics or any documentation for the LA180 > >>> interface for the PDP8/e. A scan would be great. I want to see if I > >>> can use it to interface to a Centronics interface printer. > >> > >> > >> I don't have the schematics (I do have an LC8-P somewhere), but I > >> remember back in the day, people wanted to go the other way - feed a > >> PC printer w/Centronics interface from a DEC interface. > > > > > > It's not the other way, it's the same way ;-) (attatching a Centronics/PC > > printer to a DEC interface) > > Yes, I want to connected an OKIDATA Microline82A to the PDP8/e. > > Looking at the LA180 manual's description of the LC8-P interface, it > is pretty close to Centronics. I expect it is more than just a cable, > though, because there is also an OMNIBUS Centronics printer interface > board (LS8-E). That schematic is on bitsavers. > > I also have an LE8-E (M841), but that only provides 7 data bits to the > printer. > > -chuck > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 5 09:15:40 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:15:40 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <47B8259F-F85D-4C57-9019-FD65F5B3D40D@comcast.net> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 3:44 AM, Klemens Krause < krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > ... > Cleaning the originally coated drum? I'm not sure how to do this. > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning > spirit and paper towels. ... > The LGP-30 drum is much more singular, so we never tried to clean > the surface to avoid the risk of cleaning away the coating. I've seen an IBM field service tech clean an 1311 pack once (after the drive blew a gasket and sprayed hydraulic fluid everywhere). He used Kimwipes soaked in isopropyl alcohol. Since this was in college, I went to the chemistry department to get high purity (reagent grade) isopropyl alcohol for this job. A solvent sounds good, but I would avoid "burning spirit" or rubbing alcohol or other grocery store stuff since it probably has all manner of contaminants in it, some of which may leave crud on the surface. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 5 09:23:12 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:23:12 -0500 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> > On Jan 5, 2017, at 8:55 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 05/01/2017 13:22, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Klemens Krause >> >> > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning spirit >> > and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from occasional >> > head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this torture. > >> First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation >> into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After poking >> around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's the >> name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like it >> might be acetone? > > I'm sure it's not ! :-) He'll mean the sort of alcohol used in a spirit burner. The UK equivalent is "methylated spirit" - primarily ethanol but with a (un)healthy dose of methanol to make it unfit to drink (and hence exempt from excise duty) plus pyridine (and small amounts of other things) to give it an unpleasant taste and odour, and some methyl purple dye to make it obvious at a glance. Denatured alcohol, in other words. I don't think the German (EU) version has the dye although it does contain IPA and MEK. For cleaning, because of that dye, isopropyl alcohol (IPA, isopropanol) is often a better choice in the UK. > > In the US, "rubbing alcohol" is mostly denatured ethanol (though "isopropyl rubbing alcohol" is mostly IPA), but always contains other chemicals as well. Either should do for cleaning a disk. I recognized "burning spirit" by its Dutch analog, and yes, it means denatured ethanol. I would suggest avoiding these blends of random chemicals made with no real concern for purity. You need a liquid here that will evaporate cleanly, leaving behind neither oily residue nor solids. I see no reason to believe that denatured alcohol or rubbing alcohol are made to those standards. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 09:29:08 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:29:08 -0500 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most of what I have is related to the serial interfacing with the LA180. Bill From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 5 09:49:06 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 07:49:06 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3063257a-f48e-9186-baa0-dd29f6dadbcf@bitsavers.org> 91% IPA works fine. 99% is better though i'm skeptical it really is https://www.quora.com/When-is-70-isopropyl-rubbing-alcohol-better-than-91 >> In the US, "rubbing alcohol" is mostly denatured ethanol (though "isopropyl rubbing alcohol" is mostly IPA), but always contains other chemicals as well. https://www.lewisu.edu/academics/biology/pdf/isopropanol_91.pdf IPA Water From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 5 09:56:55 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 07:56:55 -0800 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: <20170105012125.GA4655@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20170105012125.GA4655@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <7b2d7747-18ff-e887-a49a-0733878d20e5@bitsavers.org> we have them http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102752995 i'll see about getting them on line by noon On 1/4/17 5:21 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > I would also be interested in schematics. I have just started looking at this > board to try to use it with a ODEC/Data 100 chain printer. > >> Looking at the LA180 manual's description of the LC8-P interface, it >> is pretty close to Centronics. I expect it is more than just a cable, >> though, because there is also an OMNIBUS Centronics printer interface >> board (LS8-E). That schematic is on bitsavers. >> > It looked to me the LA180 protocol is demand and busy high when ok > to send character then the data is strobed in with data strobe pulse. > > Centronics is handshaked with strobe and busy so a little different. > > The board is simple enough that tracing it out is feasible if needed. > Haven't plugged in the board yet to see how the signals behave. > Still working on the printer. > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 5 09:56:51 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:56:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> In the US, "rubbing alcohol" is mostly denatured ethanol (though "isopropyl$ Interesting. I don't think I've ever seen a bottle of "rubbing alcohol" that was anything but isopropanol-and-water. But I'm more Canadian than US. > I would suggest avoiding these blends of random chemicals made with no real $ Or, more precisely, with _different_ concern for purity. For rubbing alcohol you want to avoid biologically active contaminants, but dissolved solids per se don't matter. Here, you care about dissolved solids but don't much care about things that might be biologically active, as long as they evaporate without residue. Which leads me to tentatively suggest gasoline (West Pondian) / petrol (East Pondian), since it seems to me that will go to some lengths to avoid fouling engines with residues. And it's available pretty much universally, and relatively cheaply. Or am I wrong about it not leaving even trace residues? Of course, anyone with distillation equipment could distil any of these to get something with less residue. But not everyone has chem-lab glassware. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 5 10:06:49 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:06:49 -0800 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: <7b2d7747-18ff-e887-a49a-0733878d20e5@bitsavers.org> References: <20170105012125.GA4655@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <7b2d7747-18ff-e887-a49a-0733878d20e5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: don't have them it turns out. mistook LC8-E for LC8-P On 1/5/17 7:56 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > we have them > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102752995 > > i'll see about getting them on line by noon > From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 10:07:25 2017 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:07:25 -0600 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: The cleaning procedure in the laboratory I used to work in for removing organics from silicon wafers was typically acetone, then isopropanol, then ethanol, then a deionized water rinse and nitrogen dry. We did use piranha solution on occasion when it was particularly caked on (like really old photoresist). When I cleaned an ST-4051 in the lab, I skipped the acetone. That worked quite well; the drive worked just fine after that (and a low-level format). Kyle From js at cimmeri.com Thu Jan 5 10:11:29 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 11:11:29 -0500 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> The method I use for RL02 packs (not sure if similar), is: - remove platter from pack - rinse it down with tap water - apply some Simple Green to a microfiber cloth - wipe the entire platter with that cloth - rinse by wiping with a 2nd cloth wet with distilled water - let dry 24 hours John From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jan 5 10:48:54 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:48:54 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> The method I've used very successfully for unknown packs is: 1) I first mount the pack in a drive that has a good absolute filter, and has had the head load disabled, and spin it for a few hours. If the pack shows any sign of excessive vibration, it is probably no good or requires more serious attention. This process moves a bunch of air through the pack, removing any loose dust. 2) I then take the pack apart, in a relatively dust-free space. Inspect the platter for any obvious damage that may make it unusable, such as warping, mis-centered on hub (caused by being dropped), divots in the platter surface or signs of serious head crash(e.g., oxide gone). I set the platter assembly on a lint-free cloth and cover with another lint free cloth. 3) I first use a vacuum cleaner with a light brush attachment to vacuum loose dust out of the pack case. Then I use a sink with a sprayer head and warm soapy water to thoroughly clean the plastic parts of the disk pack, and rinse thoroughly with clear water. I use dried compressed air to blow out all the moisture, and then set the pack parts aside on a lint-free cloth to dry out thoroughly, usually for 24 hours 4) I use 3M LCD monitor cleaning pads (which are lint-free by nature) to wipe the platter surfaces to remove excess oxide and remaining dust. I use a light pressure. Any areas that are clearly discolored get extra treatment. I wipe in a circular (spiral) motion from the hub outward to the edge of the platters. It's a little tedious from a handling perspective, juggling the platter with one hand, and managing the wiping with the other. I end up using quite a few of the wipes, as they get dirty pretty fast. 5) I use a bright flashlight to spot any remaining dust and canned air to dislodge any that I find. If air doesn't work, then I use more wipes to remove any that I can see. 6) Once over with canned air to blow off any remaining dust. 7) Quickly reassemble the patter into the pack casing 8) Spin the pack again for a few hours with no head load. 9) Cross fingers, put in a "live" drive, spin it up, and hope for no bad noises. Based on Klemens' method, this is probably being overly cautious, but it's worked well for me. Rick Bensene From ed at groenenberg.net Thu Jan 5 07:36:25 2017 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 14:36:25 +0100 (CET) Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <16129.212.108.17.1.1483623385.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> We have a similar common name for it being 'brand spiritus'. It's basically 90% - 92% alcohol, with the rest being methanol and water and it's color is blue-ish. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz On Thu, January 5, 2017 14:22, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Klemens Krause > > > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning > spirit > > and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from > occasional > > head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this > torture. > > I am about to get a large batch of RK05 packs, so I am interested in the > details of this. > > First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation > into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After > poking > around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's > the > name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like it > might be acetone? > > Noel > From j_hoppe at t-online.de Thu Jan 5 08:12:58 2017 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 15:12:58 +0100 Subject: Docs needed: DEC MXV11-B multi function module Message-ID: <206656b6-aa55-eca3-3853-57673b5e8031@t-online.de> Hi, I've an DEC QBUS multifunction module here. Type is MXV11-B M7195. It does not boot into its ROM menu, despite I compared all the jumpers multiple time against documentation and a reference boards. So it seems something in the ROM address logic is burnt. Somebody has the FPMs schematics? I even can scan micro fiches. Thanks, Joerg From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jan 5 08:43:57 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 06:43:57 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: DEC (branded, made by Texwipe) cleaning pads contained 99% isopropyl alcohol. The most important part was being non abrasive. I would consider using Texwipe or other brands of non abrasive materials before I even though about a solvent. I remember a disk being being cleaned with common paper towels, when that person was done you could see the scratches all over the platter. At one time the system I ran had over 200 packs in use. Another thing to watch out for is the two halves of some if not all were screwed together with self tapping screws. When you take them apart bit of plastic may come out of the holes or fall off the insides of the screw threads. That plastic if gets between the platter and head will not be to the heads advantage. BTW watch out for the filter cartridge seals disintegrating, On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 5:55 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 05/01/2017 13:22, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> > From: Klemens Krause >> >> > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning >> spirit >> > and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from >> occasional >> > head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this >> torture. > > >> First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation >> into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After >> poking >> around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's >> the >> name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like it >> might be acetone? > > > I'm sure it's not ! :-) He'll mean the sort of alcohol used in a spirit > burner. The UK equivalent is "methylated spirit" - primarily ethanol but > with a (un)healthy dose of methanol to make it unfit to drink (and hence > exempt from excise duty) plus pyridine (and small amounts of other things) > to give it an unpleasant taste and odour, and some methyl purple dye to make > it obvious at a glance. Denatured alcohol, in other words. I don't think > the German (EU) version has the dye although it does contain IPA and MEK. > For cleaning, because of that dye, isopropyl alcohol (IPA, isopropanol) is > often a better choice in the UK. > > In the US, "rubbing alcohol" is mostly denatured ethanol (though "isopropyl > rubbing alcohol" is mostly IPA), but always contains other chemicals as > well. Either should do for cleaning a disk. > > -- > Pete > Pete Turnbull > From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jan 5 08:49:00 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 06:49:00 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >>I would clean all the heads, and the surface with a soft cloth and give it a try. A place I worked, a "soft dry cloth" unless it came out of a package made by Texwipe or their competitors was known as "sand paper", if you were caught using such you were fired on the spot and escorted out the building. Same for paper towels. Just my 2c's -pete On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 1:41 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 4 Jan 2017, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: >> >> I'm far from an expert, but it certainly looks like an oxide coating to >> me. I'm reminded of the folklore when IBM was developing the RAMAC and > > > Yes, it is ferric oxide. > >> http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum.jpg >> http://www.radar58.com/temp/drum2.jpg > > > Hmm, your drum doesn't look to bad after all. In your case I would clean all > the heads, and the surface with a soft cloth and give it a try. For basic > testing you only need one data track plus the register and timing tracks. > > Christian > From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jan 5 09:51:42 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 07:51:42 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <3063257a-f48e-9186-baa0-dd29f6dadbcf@bitsavers.org> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <3063257a-f48e-9186-baa0-dd29f6dadbcf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: My error did mean to say 90% just got a bit too wound up with so many suggestions that could destroy the coating. On Jan 5, 2017 7:49 AM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > 91% IPA works fine. > 99% is better though i'm skeptical it really is > > https://www.quora.com/When-is-70-isopropyl-rubbing-alcohol-better-than-91 > > > > >> In the US, "rubbing alcohol" is mostly denatured ethanol (though > "isopropyl rubbing alcohol" is mostly IPA), but always contains other > chemicals as well. > > https://www.lewisu.edu/academics/biology/pdf/isopropanol_91.pdf > > IPA > Water > > > > From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jan 5 09:55:38 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 07:55:38 -0800 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: <47B8259F-F85D-4C57-9019-FD65F5B3D40D@comcast.net> References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> <47B8259F-F85D-4C57-9019-FD65F5B3D40D@comcast.net> Message-ID: Kimwipes ! That's the brand and products I could not remember. Just one thing to add, there are many different types/variations, so be careful. On Jan 5, 2017 7:15 AM, "Paul Koning" wrote: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 3:44 AM, Klemens Krause < > krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > > > ... > > Cleaning the originally coated drum? I'm not sure how to do this. > > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning > > spirit and paper towels. ... > > The LGP-30 drum is much more singular, so we never tried to clean > > the surface to avoid the risk of cleaning away the coating. > > I've seen an IBM field service tech clean an 1311 pack once (after the > drive blew a gasket and sprayed hydraulic fluid everywhere). He used > Kimwipes soaked in isopropyl alcohol. Since this was in college, I went to > the chemistry department to get high purity (reagent grade) isopropyl > alcohol for this job. > > A solvent sounds good, but I would avoid "burning spirit" or rubbing > alcohol or other grocery store stuff since it probably has all manner of > contaminants in it, some of which may leave crud on the surface. > > paul > > > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 10:59:49 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 17:59:49 +0100 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 5 January 2017 at 17:11, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > - apply some Simple Green to a microfiber cloth I may be the odd one out here, but what on Earth is "Simple Green?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkZFuKHXa7w -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From js at cimmeri.com Thu Jan 5 11:04:38 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 12:04:38 -0500 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <586E7CA6.5010102@cimmeri.com> On 1/5/2017 11:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 5 January 2017 at 17:11, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> - apply some Simple Green to a microfiber cloth > > I may be the odd one out here, but what on Earth is "Simple Green?" > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkZFuKHXa7w > Ever heard of Soylent Green? Same stuff, but with more water added. :) - J. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jan 5 11:05:53 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 11:05:53 -0600 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <586E7CF1.6@pico-systems.com> On 01/05/2017 07:22 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Klemens Krause > > > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning spirit > > and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from occasional > > head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this torture. > > I am about to get a large batch of RK05 packs, so I am interested in the > details of this. > > First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation > into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After poking > around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's the > name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like it > might be acetone? > I'd be very careful with acetone, it tends to dissolve a lot of things, like maybe the binder in the coating. Rubbing alcohol (isopropyl) and pure ethanol are the things I've seen used to clean magnetic media. if there is a spot that is not actually used (maybe other parts of the gouged tracks) you could test various solvents with a Q-tip to make sure they don't cause damage. Jon From js at cimmeri.com Thu Jan 5 11:06:44 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 12:06:44 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update In-Reply-To: References: <160137974.6130183.1483472863072.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <160137974.6130183.1483472863072@mail.yahoo.com> <87fcc097-9315-03eb-cd59-97491d8645a9@sydex.com> <1DA4F74E-FE78-4A37-B271-22D4832A6CF3@comcast.net> <20170103214201.GB15774@lonesome.com> <8e38aaef-1efa-7402-004a-db8ae0b3b6bf@bitsavers.org> <586D398E.7030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <586E7D24.7030900@cimmeri.com> On 1/5/2017 9:49 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: >>> I would clean all the heads, and the surface with a soft cloth and give it a try. > > A place I worked, a "soft dry cloth" unless it came out of a package > made by Texwipe or their competitors was known as "sand paper", if you > were caught using such you were fired on the spot and escorted out the > building. Same for paper towels. > > Just my 2c's > -pete I agree 100%. I keep shaking my head in disbelief at these references to paper towels and other dry forms of sandpaper. - J. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 5 11:21:27 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 09:21:27 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> http://simplegreen.com/downloads/SDS_EN-US_SimpleGreenAllPurposeCleaner.pdf not something I would think of using on a disk surface On 1/5/17 8:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 5 January 2017 at 17:11, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> - apply some Simple Green to a microfiber cloth > > > I may be the odd one out here, but what on Earth is "Simple Green?" > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkZFuKHXa7w > From js at cimmeri.com Thu Jan 5 11:22:19 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 12:22:19 -0500 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> It's very mild and has been aluminum safe for me (think, aluminum wheels on cars). As Allison taught me, the oxide surface on platters / drums is just a form of inactive RUST.. and therefore, unaffected by water (no, the water doesn't cause it to start rusting further). - J. On 1/5/2017 12:21 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://simplegreen.com/downloads/SDS_EN-US_SimpleGreenAllPurposeCleaner.pdf > > not something I would think of using on a disk surface > > On 1/5/17 8:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 5 January 2017 at 17:11, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >>> - apply some Simple Green to a microfiber cloth >> >> I may be the odd one out here, but what on Earth is "Simple Green?" >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkZFuKHXa7w >> > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 5 11:30:44 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 09:30:44 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <1a00991e-55ca-c851-7ebc-b6f0600f934a@bitsavers.org> On 1/5/17 9:22 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > As Allison taught me, the oxide surface on platters / drums is just a form of inactive RUST.. and therefore, unaffected > by water (no, the water doesn't cause it to start rusting further). > The interface between the aluminum platter and the steel sector ring would be a really bad thing to get water into. From js at cimmeri.com Thu Jan 5 11:47:48 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 12:47:48 -0500 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <1a00991e-55ca-c851-7ebc-b6f0600f934a@bitsavers.org> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> <1a00991e-55ca-c851-7ebc-b6f0600f934a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <586E86C4.2060004@cimmeri.com> On 1/5/2017 12:30 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 1/5/17 9:22 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> As Allison taught me, the oxide surface on platters / drums is just a form of inactive RUST.. and therefore, unaffected >> by water (no, the water doesn't cause it to start rusting further). >> > The interface between the aluminum platter and the steel sector ring > would be a really bad thing to get water into. Yeah, if you let it sit there long enough, but wiped dry (and let to sit to dry further), it's not going anywhere. - J. From chd at chdickman.com Thu Jan 5 12:03:17 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 13:03:17 -0500 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Is this the printset you are looking for? > > https://imgur.com/a/4uDS4 > > https://imgur.com/a/mDvhD > > Sorry for top-posting. I hope the links are ok. Posting from the phone... > Yes! That looks like it. Thanks, -chuck From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 12:06:15 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 18:06:15 +0000 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > Another thing to watch out for is the two halves of some if not all > were screwed together with self tapping screws. When you take > them apart bit of plastic may come out of the holes or fall off the > insides of the screw threads. That plastic if gets between the platter > and head will not be to the heads advantage. I seem to recall that one of the RK05 manuals warned that when re-fitting said screws you should always put them in, turn them anticlockwise until the threads engage and then tighten them clockwise. Just screwing them in not only risks (as ever) stripping the thread in the plastic housing, but also the action of cutting the new thread may cause bits of plastic to break loose and they might (will!) end up where they shouldn't -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 12:12:22 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 18:12:22 +0000 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <1a00991e-55ca-c851-7ebc-b6f0600f934a@bitsavers.org> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> <1a00991e-55ca-c851-7ebc-b6f0600f934a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 5:30 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 1/5/17 9:22 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> As Allison taught me, the oxide surface on platters / drums is just a form of inactive RUST.. and therefore, unaffected >> by water (no, the water doesn't cause it to start rusting further). >> > > The interface between the aluminum platter and the steel sector ring > would be a really bad thing to get water into. > I seem to remember that at least some RK05 packs have a piece of foam inside the hub (no idea what for, and it doesn't seem to be the Evil Foam that turns to dust or gunge). Get that soaked with water and you will have some interesting effects when you spin up! -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 12:37:49 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 13:37:49 -0500 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> Is this the printset you are looking for? >> >> https://imgur.com/a/4uDS4 Ah... MP-00075... I didn't see it on Bitsavers and Manx says "No copies are known to be online" http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,6163 >> https://imgur.com/a/mDvhD Nice. > Yes! That looks like it. Looks like it's 7 bits (D5-D11 -> P01-P07). -ethan From chd at chdickman.com Thu Jan 5 12:47:49 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 13:47:49 -0500 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 1:37 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >>> Is this the printset you are looking for? >>> >>> https://imgur.com/a/4uDS4 > > Looks like it's 7 bits (D5-D11 -> P01-P07). I noticed that when looking at the board last night. The OS/8 printer handlers mask to 7 bits also. But its ASCII right, so that all you should ever need. -chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 15:38:41 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 22:38:41 +0100 Subject: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-01-05 19:37 GMT+01:00 Ethan Dicks : > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Mattis Lind > wrote: > >> Is this the printset you are looking for? > >> > >> https://imgur.com/a/4uDS4 > > Ah... MP-00075... I didn't see it on Bitsavers and Manx says "No > copies are known to be online" > OK. I'll bring it home and will scan it sometime next week. /Mattis > > http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,6163 > > >> https://imgur.com/a/mDvhD > > Nice. > > > Yes! That looks like it. > > Looks like it's 7 bits (D5-D11 -> P01-P07). > > -ethan > From dab at froghouse.org Thu Jan 5 17:24:55 2017 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 18:24:55 -0500 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4e1afd6c-b93b-bba0-f278-731dd5356fa3@froghouse.org> On 01/05/2017 12:22 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > It's very mild and has been aluminum safe for me (think, aluminum > wheels on cars). This question of whether Simple Green was aluminum safe came up in the aircraft world a few years back and the answer turned out to be that some ingredient in there is mildly corrosive to aluminum. Not badly so and if you managed to flush it off with water then no problem but if a bit of cleaner were to weep into a crack and not get get cleaned off then over time it might be a problem. Not too long after that Simple Green came out with a new formulation, Simple Green Extreme or something like that, that *was* aluminum safe. So look for the Simple Green that's sold for cleaning airplanes if you're cleaning around aluminum. Dave From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jan 5 17:49:18 2017 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 15:49:18 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170105154918.7d3837dd@asrock.bcwi.net> On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:22:05 -0500 (EST) jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: > > From: Klemens Krause > > > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap > > burning spirit and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black > > traces from occasional head crashes and we never removed the > > oxide coating with this torture. > > I am about to get a large batch of RK05 packs, so I am interested in > the details of this. > > First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight > translation into English of some German term, but not knowing > German... :-) After poking around with Google for a while (hampered > no little by the fact that it's the name of a band, and also a term > in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like it might be acetone? I'm sure I've discussed cleaning packs on this list before, but here goes again :) I've cleaned a LOT of RL02 and RK05 packs. Both are relatively easy to clean, but patience is definitely a virtue. 1) I clean the external surface of the pack with a damp cloth to eliminate dirt and dust. Then I dry off any dampness with a clean, dry cloth. 2) I open (unscrew or unclip depending on the model) the pack and carefully set the screws (if any) in a clean (dust free) plastic box. 3) I examine the pack surface for crashes - and if there are visible "hits" or "groves" in the pack, I discard it immediately. 4) Assuming the surface is good, I then use Lint Free Professional Swabs saturated with Pure Anhydrous Isopropyl Alcohol (99.953% pure) to clean the entire surface of the disk. 5) If there are any dirt buildup spots (NOT the result of a crash), I use Lint Free Professional Chamois Swabs, saturated with the above Alcohol, to gently clean up the spot. BTW, in my experience, this step is rarely required. 6) After cleaning, I use a Lint Free Texwipe to GENTLY clean the entire surface of any dust or other particulate. 6) I then clean all of the internal casing using Texwipe and the above alcohol. 7) I re-assemble the disk and examine it for any dust particles with a bright LED flashlight. If there are any visible dust particles, I use a filtered air supply to blow away the dust. NOTE: When replacing screws in packs, be super careful not to tighten the screws too hard. Tightening too much can strip the plastic threads and introduce plastic particulate on to the disk. I've cleaned over 40 RL0x and RK05 packs using this method - and all have subsequently worked perfectly. NOTE: All of the above products are available online or at any electronic supply house. The Pure Anhydrous Isopropyl Alcohol on the container says: "For cleaning fiber optics, semi-conductors, contacts, magnetic tape, medical equipment and other electronic devices. Zero residue". Cost here in Silicon Valley is about $8 for 1 Litre. Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 5 18:15:27 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 16:15:27 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <4e1afd6c-b93b-bba0-f278-731dd5356fa3@froghouse.org> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> <4e1afd6c-b93b-bba0-f278-731dd5356fa3@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <42f5f17f-7eea-8d18-013f-3e611df80766@sydex.com> On 01/05/2017 03:24 PM, David Bridgham wrote: > This question of whether Simple Green was aluminum safe came up in > the aircraft world a few years back and the answer turned out to be > that some ingredient in there is mildly corrosive to aluminum. Not > badly so and if you managed to flush it off with water then no > problem but if a bit of cleaner were to weep into a crack and not get > get cleaned off then over time it might be a problem. Not too long > after that Simple Green came out with a new formulation, Simple Green > Extreme or something like that, that *was* aluminum safe. So look > for the Simple Green that's sold for cleaning airplanes if you're > cleaning around aluminum. Freon TF works well on everything. Too bad it's not available. Is it still used for aircraft electronics? --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Jan 5 11:23:32 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 12:23:32 -0500 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <16129.212.108.17.1.1483623385.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <16129.212.108.17.1.1483623385.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <65d86845-90d9-1b49-45c5-91783a088d85@verizon.net> On 1/5/17 8:36 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > We have a similar common name for it being 'brand spiritus'. > > It's basically 90% - 92% alcohol, with the rest being methanol and water > and it's color is blue-ish. > > Ed > -- In the past from the local print and painting supplier "De-natured alcohol" Usually in a pint or gallon can (this is USA). I also buy Lacquer thinner, Acetone, Ethanol (99.4pure) and MEK in the same form all powerful solvents and better than 99% pure. Rubbing alcohol is ok save for its isopropanol plus water (either 70% or 91%). The latter 91% is safe for many uses and is water clear it leaves no residue (however one must assure its dry after). There is also Rubbing Alcohol that is ethanol plus water with an added denaturant (toxic) to render it safe for skin use and not for drinking. GC chemicals supplies two different residue free solvent cleaners. My favorite head cleaner was banned in many places Xylene, takes curd off like no tomorrow. May melt the user too. As to cleaning and repairing the drum... DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING UNTIL YOU ARE SURE of the process to be applied. That applies to solvents, wipes, and all. Use gloves! Test solvents near an edge or other area that is not critical. Allison > Ik email, dus ik besta. > BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN > LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz > > On Thu, January 5, 2017 14:22, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Klemens Krause >> >> > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning >> spirit >> > and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from >> occasional >> > head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this >> torture. >> >> I am about to get a large batch of RK05 packs, so I am interested in the >> details of this. >> >> First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation >> into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After >> poking >> around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's >> the >> name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like it >> might be acetone? >> >> Noel >> > From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jan 5 11:38:34 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 09:38:34 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <586E7CF1.6@pico-systems.com> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <586E7CF1.6@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >>you could test various solvents with a Q-tip to make sure they don't cause damage. And a week later after the binder had decomposed what are you going to do ? On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 01/05/2017 07:22 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> > From: Klemens Krause >> >> > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning >> spirit >> > and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from >> occasional >> > head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this >> torture. >> >> I am about to get a large batch of RK05 packs, so I am interested in the >> details of this. >> >> First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation >> into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After >> poking >> around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's >> the >> name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like it >> might be acetone? >> > I'd be very careful with acetone, it tends to dissolve a lot of things, like > maybe the binder in the coating. > Rubbing alcohol (isopropyl) and pure ethanol are the things I've seen used > to clean magnetic media. > if there is a spot that is not actually used (maybe other parts of the > gouged tracks) you could test various solvents with a Q-tip to make sure > they don't cause damage. > > Jon > From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Jan 5 11:47:36 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 12:47:36 -0500 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 1/5/17 10:56 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> In the US, "rubbing alcohol" is mostly denatured ethanol (though "isopropyl$ > Interesting. I don't think I've ever seen a bottle of "rubbing > alcohol" that was anything but isopropanol-and-water. But I'm more > Canadian than US. Many are possible in the local apothecary (aka drug store in local lingo). ISO70% + water ISO91% + water Ethanol (denatured)+ water Then there are products with oil of wintergreen (green color) and other additives and are identified on label. >> I would suggest avoiding these blends of random chemicals made with no real $ > Or, more precisely, with _different_ concern for purity. For rubbing > alcohol you want to avoid biologically active contaminants, but > dissolved solids per se don't matter. Here, you care about dissolved > solids but don't much care about things that might be biologically > active, as long as they evaporate without residue. Generally there are no solids in the first three and are safe for cleaning gear is the materials are not affected by the alcohol in use. > Which leads me to tentatively suggest gasoline (West Pondian) / petrol > (East Pondian), since it seems to me that will go to some lengths to > avoid fouling engines with residues. And it's available pretty much > universally, and relatively cheaply. NO! Highly flammable and contains a laundry list of things. Good enough for cleaning an engine of oil (with great care). Oddly Kerosene (aka paraffin) can be had as (K1 crystal) highly refined. Again it can acquire impurities from the source but can also be purchased in small containers for camp stoves and lamps. > Or am I wrong about it not leaving even trace residues? There is what was called "white gas" that was pure petrol extracts without additives. These days if you see it its for camp stoves and lights and not cheap. > Of course, anyone with distillation equipment could distil any of these > to get something with less residue. But not everyone has chem-lab > glassware. Or the temperature controls to not render unsafe(highly flammable) lighter gasses Allison > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Jan 5 12:07:28 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 13:07:28 -0500 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <1a00991e-55ca-c851-7ebc-b6f0600f934a@bitsavers.org> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> <1a00991e-55ca-c851-7ebc-b6f0600f934a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3f5e3948-1f19-7d23-4e27-04ba8568ef6d@verizon.net> On 1/5/17 12:30 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 1/5/17 9:22 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> As Allison taught me, the oxide surface on platters / drums is just a form of inactive RUST.. and therefore, unaffected >> by water (no, the water doesn't cause it to start rusting further). >> > The interface between the aluminum platter and the steel sector ring > would be a really bad thing to get water into. Simple Green is a earth safe (Eco) detergent with a PH of 8.5 to 9.5. Safe for many things as a mild great and organic residue remover. Used that or Woolite for washing aluminum aircraft for decades. Water is not the hazard, allowing it to remain without drying is as it promotes corrosion. Pure water (non-ionic) is mostly inactive. FYI: Decades ago I used to do radio repair for the maritime set and a salt dunked radio that was still dripping from its dunking in salt water was immediately without prejudice immersed in clean water. It was then again immersed in new fresh clean water. The goal was to remove the salt and then DRY (in a 160 degree Fahrenheit oven) the unit before active corrosion could take over. It was usually successful if the unit hadn't remained submerged for more than a few hours or allowed to sit around for more than a few hours as if it it electrolytic corrosion from dissimilar metals would take over and kill it. It was also effective on intermittent marine gear that had gotten flaky from salt tracking on the board over time. Allison From RichA at livingcomputers.org Thu Jan 5 14:23:25 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 20:23:25 +0000 Subject: Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 PDF? In-Reply-To: <20161219175407.GA27901@loomcom.com> References: <20161219175407.GA27901@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDF3356@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> XKLeTen.PaulAllen.com changed names a long time ago. Your account can be found on Toad-1.LivingComputerMuseum.org, and the PDF is in DOC:. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Seth Morabito Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 9:54 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 PDF? I'm looking for a PDF of "Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming" by Ralph E. Gorin. It used to be hosted on PDPPlanet (xkleten.paulallen.com), but that's been down for a while. Does anyone else have a copy they could send me? Best Wishes, -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 16:12:19 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 14:12:19 -0800 Subject: Apple //c Prototype, Sphere 1, UniCom 141p for sale (and more) Message-ID: Hello All, I have put up for sale on the Vintage Computer Marketplace the following items: Apple //c Prototype http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55676-Apple-c-Prototype-for-sale Sphere 1 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55677-Sphere-1-early-Personal-Computer-with-integrated-keyboard-and-display UniCom 141p http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55678-Unicom-141p-First-commercial-product-with-Intel-4004-microprocessor I also have a lot more machines of all kinds remaining in my collection that I am selling. Most of the machines in this post are still available (though the prices listed are obsolete as this is an old post): http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?51781-Mulitple-and-divers-computers-for-sale All prices are negotiable. The intent is to sell these items. Thanks! Sellam From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 16:14:23 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 14:14:23 -0800 Subject: FOR SALE: Commodore PET 8032 like new in original box Message-ID: I have put up for sale on the Vintage Computer Marketplace a near pristine Commodore PET 8032 in its original box. http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55679-Commodore-PET-8032-Brand-New-in-Original-Box-w-manuals-and-accessories If interested, please inquire on the VCM or direct to me through e-mail. Thanks! Sellam From cramcram at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 16:18:55 2017 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 14:18:55 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <348402da-bb60-8854-0f69-f9a90e5c971e@bitsavers.org> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <348402da-bb60-8854-0f69-f9a90e5c971e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: "A pack inspector is a handy thing to have (spinle with microscope and illuminator on the rack and pinion)" Can you post a picture of this critter? Is it something we could 3D print? Thanks, Marc On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 6:40 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > isopropyl alcohol works. TFE is better, if you have some stashed. > > If you can find them anywhere, Texwipe made a plastic wand that looks like > a tongue depressor with a slit down the middle and a lint free sleeve > called the Texsleeve (tx300 sleeve, tx800 wand) that you would use to > clean heads > > Minor head crashes leave a tar-like residue that you need to remove. A > pack inspector > is a handy thing to have (spinle with microscope and illuminator on the > rack and pinion) > to look for surface damage. > > On 1/5/17 5:22 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Klemens Krause > > > > > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning > spirit > > > and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from > occasional > > > head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this > torture. > > > > I am about to get a large batch of RK05 packs, so I am interested in the > > details of this. > > > > First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation > > into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After > poking > > around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's > the > > name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like > it > > might be acetone? > > > > Noel > > > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Jan 5 19:13:39 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 20:13:39 -0500 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <42f5f17f-7eea-8d18-013f-3e611df80766@sydex.com> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> <4e1afd6c-b93b-bba0-f278-731dd5356fa3@froghouse.org> <42f5f17f-7eea-8d18-013f-3e611df80766@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 01/05/2017 07:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/05/2017 03:24 PM, David Bridgham wrote: > >> This question of whether Simple Green was aluminum safe came up in >> the aircraft world a few years back and the answer turned out to be >> that some ingredient in there is mildly corrosive to aluminum. Not >> badly so and if you managed to flush it off with water then no >> problem but if a bit of cleaner were to weep into a crack and not get >> get cleaned off then over time it might be a problem. Not too long >> after that Simple Green came out with a new formulation, Simple Green >> Extreme or something like that, that *was* aluminum safe. So look >> for the Simple Green that's sold for cleaning airplanes if you're >> cleaning around aluminum. Lots of ifs, mights, and maybes. My knowledge is from actually owning and maintaining a Cessna since 1979 and so far that has not been an issue. FYI often cleaning the bird is good no matter what you use as salt spray and other things it can be exposed to are far worse. Like acid rain and soot from fires. > > Freon TF works well on everything. Too bad it's not available. > > Is it still used for aircraft electronics? No its been obsoleted. There are many other similar but not fluorinated hydrocarbons that are preferred and also good old soap and water. Allison > > --Chuck > From tim at tim-mann.org Thu Jan 5 19:15:32 2017 From: tim at tim-mann.org (Tim Mann) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 17:15:32 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 30, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For what it's worth, xtrs (http://tim-mann.org/xtrs.html) emulates LD A,R by putting an 8-bit random number in A. Of course that's cheesy and wrong -- especially bit 7 being random instead of retaining a 0 from reset or the last value written to it -- but at least it works OK with Ethan's subroutine. The subroutine may loop a few times due to the value randomly being negative or zero until it escapes the first time the value is randomly positive. xtrs sets the sign and zero flags according to the value, and does something complicated with the other flags that I don't remember the reason for -- but it might be correct; i think I got it from some reference on the web last time I hacked on that instruction. The pointer that someone posted to http://www.worldofspectrum.org/faq/reference/z80reference.htm#RRegister may inspire me to fix the emulation, though it looks like a bit of work to get it exactly right... On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:00 AM, wrote: > Message: 10 > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 17:34:29 -0500 > From: Ethan Dicks > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the > contents of the refresh register > Message-ID: > LeLXT+gw at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 4:26 PM, allison wrote: > >>> On 14/12/2016 09:19, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>>> > >>>> So far, this loop hangs on all three emulators I've tried - simh's > >>>> altairz80, simcpm010 for AmigaDOS, and EMUZ80 for Raspberry Pi. I'm > >>>> guessing none of these environments emulate specific behavior of the > >>>> Refresh register? > > > The first year of appearance for 64K DRAMS was mid to late 1980 > (expensive > > and scarce) and mostly sampling to the big vendors. For regular users > late 81 > > when the price started down. > > Right. I was a user of 8-bit micros in that exact era. My first > hands-on experience as a user was the memory inside the Commodore 64. > My first engineering experience was in 1984 on a product designed in > 1983 (COMBOARD-II with 128K of 4164 chips and a 74S409 refresh > controller). > > > There were three flavors, 8bit refresh, 7bit refresh, and > > internal refresh came in a bit later by maybe mid 1982. > > I know there were different types but not those details. Thanks. > > > The Z80 could do 8bit refresh with hardware or software or the self > refresh > > (internal). > > I'm also a little fuzzy on this aspect of things because I was never a > Z-80 user back in the day. > > Software Results considered a Z-80 COMBOARD very early on, but > abandonded that approach because it would have likely required 2 hex > Unibus modules and so opted to hold out a few months and go with a > 68000 and SRAM design on a single hex card (my old boss still has an > XC68000 with S/N 424 engraved on the lid). > > > Nominally the R register is a counter that increments from any value to > 7bit > > overflow. > > So I'm learning. > > > I believe most emulators actually do that. > > The first three emulators I tried (simcpm010, altairz80, and EMUZ80) > on three different platforms (AmigaDOS, Linux, and ARM) do not. I now > have a couple of names of DOS/Windows emulators that should. I will > have to run them under Wine since I'm not a Windows user. > > It's funny because I would have tried this on simcpm010 25 years ago > (it was on the Amiga disk I just extracted all these files from) and > it would have failed then just as it fails today, and then, I had *no* > idea why. I've learned a lot since then because it only took me a few > hours of digging to uncover why. > > > Check MyZ80 Simon Crans work (32bit > > dos/ pre-7-winders only or in a 32bit sim/VM). > > I will look that up. > > > Either that or lookup and assemble Grant Searle's low chip count Z80 > system. > > The worry is not running on real hardware. Once I get some time to > clean up my XOR or dig out a Kaypro, I will run it on real hardware. > I want to find/fix an emulator for modern machines so that other > people can just grab and go. Also, this is not _just_ a Z-80 program, > it's a CP/M program, with CP/M BDOS calls to open/close/read/write > files and read-from/write-to the console (F_OPEN, F_CLOSE, F_READ, > F_WRITE, C_READSTR, C_WRITE). > > Right now, I'm leaning towards fixing altairz80 first since that runs > on "everything". I may also work with the author of EMUZ80 so it > works on bare-metal Raspberry Pi (EMUZ80 is a Pascal app that runs in > the Lazarus bare-metal framework, so you need Windows to rebuild the > app). I don't mind putting known-working Windows-based emulators on > a list of "verified environments", but I'm not going to push this to > the public without a Mac and a Linux answer. Telling the world that > they have to build a real Z-80 CP/M machine to play a game isn't going > to hit a large audience. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Jan 5 19:38:56 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 20:38:56 -0500 Subject: 12 years later sill looking for... Message-ID: <373a1723-a6db-4cdb-f43e-6762a55082bd@verizon.net> < References: <373a1723-a6db-4cdb-f43e-6762a55082bd@verizon.net> Message-ID: Might help if you put specifically what you're looking for in the subject line. Or somewhere else clear. Would also help a bit if your message were comprehensible. On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 17:38 allison wrote: > < > contains < > controller Card] < > schematic and fix < > instrument may even be from < > would be fun to get it operational. I repaired the CRT and foudn it > > generally less than useful and repurposed the CRT, Power supply and case > > for a Embedded ELF system... with disk. So now I have the three STD > > boards and 4 slot backplane... THey do have T-BAR on them and I can do > > one of two things with them strip them for the CPU, SIO, RAM, EPROM, > > SMC5027E CRTC. As is without manuals or other useful info they are junk > > to be reused. Ideally with far more detailed info like schematics make a > > dedicated z80 system. So I post it again... Allison > > > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jan 6 00:21:57 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2017 00:21:57 -0600 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <586E7CF1.6@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <586F3785.4010906@pico-systems.com> On 01/05/2017 11:38 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: >>> you could test various solvents with a Q-tip to make sure they don't cause damage. > And a week later after the binder had decomposed what are you going to do ? > > That's why you test in a non-critical area, and then let it sit for a while to make sure it doesn't cause slow deterioration. And, of course, with a general idea of the material (plated nickel vs. oxide/epoxy) you can select solvents that are known to not attack that material. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 6 00:44:44 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 22:44:44 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> <4e1afd6c-b93b-bba0-f278-731dd5356fa3@froghouse.org> <42f5f17f-7eea-8d18-013f-3e611df80766@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3137511b-cd6d-db88-52d0-399308070042@sydex.com> On 01/05/2017 05:13 PM, allison wrote: >> Freon TF works well on everything. Too bad it's not available. >> >> Is it still used for aircraft electronics? > No its been obsoleted. There are many other similar but not > fluorinated hydrocarbons that are preferred and also good old soap > and water. No, it's been banned. "Obsoleted" to me carries the implication that there's something better. TF was banned under the Montreal Protocol not for its toxicity, but for the ozone-depletion characteristic of the stuff when it was released into the atmosphere. Same goes for most chlorinated refrigerants. HCFC-225 had been an adequate substitute, but that was phased out in 2015. Too bad--it was almost as good as a cleaner. Techspray (and NASA and a bunch of other outfits) have proposed some possible alternatives; https://www.techspray.com/t-ak225ban.aspx If these were my packs, I'd drop them a line and see what they recommend for the specific application. FWIW, I buy my denatured ethanol from the paint store--it's about as water-free as it's possible to get, usually with some methanol commonly added as a denaturing agent, although other substances can be used. This was a practice started in 1906 so that manufacturers could be exempted from alcohol taxation. During Prohibition, the government, responding to a higher moral standard, reformulated the denaturing agents, making them even more lethal. The result was dramatic--in 1928, 700 people died in New York alone from consumption of industrial alcohol. Oddly, the 18th amendment only forbade manufacture, sale and transportation of alcohol. Consumption was still perfectly legal. Paint-store alcohol is free of water because it's commonly used as a shellac solvent/carrier. Any appreciable amount of water results in a cloudy finish. FWIW, Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 03:13:26 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 01:13:26 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <348402da-bb60-8854-0f69-f9a90e5c971e@bitsavers.org> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <348402da-bb60-8854-0f69-f9a90e5c971e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: We use 6"x6" clean room rated wipes (I think they were either Berkshires or Kimwipes) from Grainger and 99% isopropyl alcohol from Fry's. Won't scratch, free of microscopic dust and lint, and 99% alcohol will leave no drying marks (it's typically the last rinse in IC manufacturing). May cost you a bit. Wipe your work area before and use clean room gloves. Marc Sent from my iPad > On Jan 5, 2017, at 6:40 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > isopropyl alcohol works. TFE is better, if you have some stashed. > > If you can find them anywhere, Texwipe made a plastic wand that looks like > a tongue depressor with a slit down the middle and a lint free sleeve > called the Texsleeve (tx300 sleeve, tx800 wand) that you would use to clean heads > > Minor head crashes leave a tar-like residue that you need to remove. A pack inspector > is a handy thing to have (spinle with microscope and illuminator on the rack and pinion) > to look for surface damage. > > On 1/5/17 5:22 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> From: Klemens Krause >> >>> We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning spirit >>> and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from occasional >>> head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this torture. >> >> I am about to get a large batch of RK05 packs, so I am interested in the >> details of this. >> >> First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation >> into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After poking >> around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's the >> name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like it >> might be acetone? >> >> Noel > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 6 03:47:05 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 10:47:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <16129.212.108.17.1.1483623385.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <16129.212.108.17.1.1483623385.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2017, E. Groenenberg wrote: > We have a similar common name for it being 'brand spiritus'. > > It's basically 90% - 92% alcohol, with the rest being methanol and water > and it's color is blue-ish. German "Spiritus", as it's called here, usually is 94% ethanol, 1-2% butanone and water. Surely no methanol as this is lethal. Also no dye. Spiritus is a clear and highly volatile liquid. It's also very cheap, a one liter bottle is around 2 Euros. Christian From dab at froghouse.org Fri Jan 6 06:32:32 2017 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 07:32:32 -0500 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> <4e1afd6c-b93b-bba0-f278-731dd5356fa3@froghouse.org> <42f5f17f-7eea-8d18-013f-3e611df80766@sydex.com> Message-ID: <67b5138d-9eb9-f469-705a-fd7cc0963a31@froghouse.org> On 01/05/2017 08:13 PM, allison wrote: > Lots of ifs, mights, and maybes. My knowledge is from actually owning > and maintaining a Cessna since 1979 and so far that has not been an issue. Yup, that's just how the discussion in the aircraft community went. One group would point out that Simple Green contained chemicals known to corrode aluminum while another group would say they'd been using the stuff on their airplanes and hadn't noticed any problems. Then the company came out with Simple Green Extreme, promoting it as being safe for aircraft though never actually saying, as far as I saw, that the regular Simple Green wasn't safe. From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Jan 6 08:11:32 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 06:11:32 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <65d86845-90d9-1b49-45c5-91783a088d85@verizon.net> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <16129.212.108.17.1.1483623385.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <65d86845-90d9-1b49-45c5-91783a088d85@verizon.net> Message-ID: >>The latter 91% is safe for many uses and is water clear it leaves no residue >>(however one must assure its dry after). And what type of microscope did you use to determine there is no residue ? On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 9:23 AM, allison wrote: > On 1/5/17 8:36 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >> We have a similar common name for it being 'brand spiritus'. >> >> It's basically 90% - 92% alcohol, with the rest being methanol and water >> and it's color is blue-ish. >> >> Ed >> -- > > > In the past from the local print and painting supplier "De-natured alcohol" > Usually in a pint or gallon can (this is USA). I also buy Lacquer thinner, > Acetone, Ethanol (99.4pure) and MEK in the same form all powerful > solvents and better than 99% pure. > > Rubbing alcohol is ok save for its isopropanol plus water (either 70% or > 91%). > The latter 91% is safe for many uses and is water clear it leaves no residue > (however one must assure its dry after). > > There is also Rubbing Alcohol that is ethanol plus water with an added > denaturant > (toxic) to render it safe for skin use and not for drinking. > > GC chemicals supplies two different residue free solvent cleaners. > > My favorite head cleaner was banned in many places Xylene, takes curd > off like no tomorrow. May melt the user too. > > As to cleaning and repairing the drum... DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING UNTIL > YOU ARE SURE of the process to be applied. That applies to solvents, wipes, > and all. Use gloves! Test solvents near an edge or other area that is not > critical. > > > Allison > > >> Ik email, dus ik besta. >> BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN >> LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz >> >> On Thu, January 5, 2017 14:22, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> >>> > From: Klemens Krause >>> >>> > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning >>> spirit >>> > and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from >>> occasional >>> > head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this >>> torture. >>> >>> I am about to get a large batch of RK05 packs, so I am interested in the >>> details of this. >>> >>> First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation >>> into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After >>> poking >>> around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's >>> the >>> name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like >>> it >>> might be acetone? >>> >>> Noel >>> >> > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 11:05:30 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:05:30 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 30, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 8:15 PM, Tim Mann wrote: > ... xtrs (http://tim-mann.org/xtrs.html) emulates LD A,R > by putting an 8-bit random number in A. Of course that's cheesy and wrong > -- especially bit 7 being random instead of retaining a 0 from reset or the > last value written to it -- but at least it works OK with Ethan's > subroutine. The subroutine may loop a few times due to the value randomly > being negative or zero until it escapes the first time the value is > randomly positive. Hi, Tim, Yep. That should work, though it would be interesting to see how that biases the numbers as used as percentages in the game code (really, the granularity is that many events have a medium chance of occurring and a few events have a low chance of occurring. Some stuff is just "color" - as in randomly printing dialog fragments to simulate intelligent NPC behavior. As long as the numbers coming out aren't biased to the lower quintile, gameplay should be fine. > The pointer that someone posted to > http://www.worldofspectrum.org/faq/reference/z80reference.htm#RRegister may > inspire me to fix the emulation, though it looks like a bit of work to get > it exactly right... I worked with Peter Shorn, the author of altairz80 on Simh, to do a fairly good implementation. I did a simple "increment and wrap on 7-bits" bump in the dispatch loop, which is first-order-approximate, but the true solution has to do with all the extended commands and shifts that add extra M1 cycles. The new code for altairz80 is at http://schorn.ch/altair_beta.php My latest adventure is figuring out why there's a different problem with CP/M 3.0 Plus on the Commodore 128. VICE appears to do the "random number in R" trick (I haven't inspected the code, but I have a short Z-80 app that reads and prints the R register several times) and the game program does not have a problem in reading R, _but_ it seems to matter in a different place, where there's a BDOS 10 Call to read buffered console input, one version of CP/M (from Jan 1985) does all the right things, but two newer versions (Dec 1985 and May 1987) don't respond after prompting the user for input. I haven't tried xtrs yet, in part because there already is a TRS-DOS version of this game (which wouldn't need CP/M, and I haven't ever fiddled with running CP/M on real Tandy hardware). Thanks for the response! -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 11:05:30 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:05:30 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 30, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 8:15 PM, Tim Mann wrote: > ... xtrs (http://tim-mann.org/xtrs.html) emulates LD A,R > by putting an 8-bit random number in A. Of course that's cheesy and wrong > -- especially bit 7 being random instead of retaining a 0 from reset or the > last value written to it -- but at least it works OK with Ethan's > subroutine. The subroutine may loop a few times due to the value randomly > being negative or zero until it escapes the first time the value is > randomly positive. Hi, Tim, Yep. That should work, though it would be interesting to see how that biases the numbers as used as percentages in the game code (really, the granularity is that many events have a medium chance of occurring and a few events have a low chance of occurring. Some stuff is just "color" - as in randomly printing dialog fragments to simulate intelligent NPC behavior. As long as the numbers coming out aren't biased to the lower quintile, gameplay should be fine. > The pointer that someone posted to > http://www.worldofspectrum.org/faq/reference/z80reference.htm#RRegister may > inspire me to fix the emulation, though it looks like a bit of work to get > it exactly right... I worked with Peter Shorn, the author of altairz80 on Simh, to do a fairly good implementation. I did a simple "increment and wrap on 7-bits" bump in the dispatch loop, which is first-order-approximate, but the true solution has to do with all the extended commands and shifts that add extra M1 cycles. The new code for altairz80 is at http://schorn.ch/altair_beta.php My latest adventure is figuring out why there's a different problem with CP/M 3.0 Plus on the Commodore 128. VICE appears to do the "random number in R" trick (I haven't inspected the code, but I have a short Z-80 app that reads and prints the R register several times) and the game program does not have a problem in reading R, _but_ it seems to matter in a different place, where there's a BDOS 10 Call to read buffered console input, one version of CP/M (from Jan 1985) does all the right things, but two newer versions (Dec 1985 and May 1987) don't respond after prompting the user for input. I haven't tried xtrs yet, in part because there already is a TRS-DOS version of this game (which wouldn't need CP/M, and I haven't ever fiddled with running CP/M on real Tandy hardware). Thanks for the response! -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 11:45:56 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 18:45:56 +0100 Subject: Yugoslavian Computer Magazine Cover Girls of the 1980s and 1990s Message-ID: An image gallery of cheesy -- and cheese-cakey -- magazine covers from what were for me the golden days. But the UK mags weren't ever like this. Some of the names, and the typos, are highly amusing. http://imgur.com/gallery/3Jlqh -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Jan 6 10:15:46 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2017 11:15:46 -0500 Subject: Cleaning things (was Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update)) In-Reply-To: <67b5138d-9eb9-f469-705a-fd7cc0963a31@froghouse.org> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3905C8BE-1BA0-41A5-9956-351DDEBBBF81@comcast.net> <201701051556.KAA15950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <586E7031.7030308@cimmeri.com> <21bd542e-e0a3-78d8-b83d-eae4eca58fd0@bitsavers.org> <586E80CB.7040100@cimmeri.com> <4e1afd6c-b93b-bba0-f278-731dd5356fa3@froghouse.org> <42f5f17f-7eea-8d18-013f-3e611df80766@sydex.com> <67b5138d-9eb9-f469-705a-fd7cc0963a31@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On 01/06/2017 07:32 AM, David Bridgham wrote: > On 01/05/2017 08:13 PM, allison wrote: > >> Lots of ifs, mights, and maybes. My knowledge is from actually owning >> and maintaining a Cessna since 1979 and so far that has not been an issue. > Yup, that's just how the discussion in the aircraft community went. One > group would point out that Simple Green contained chemicals known to > corrode aluminum while another group would say they'd been using the > stuff on their airplanes and hadn't noticed any problems. Then the > company came out with Simple Green Extreme, promoting it as being safe > for aircraft though never actually saying, as far as I saw, that the > regular Simple Green wasn't safe. > > I see that as the maker responded to a perceived problem and did their marketing! The bottom line is its seriously off topic and likely not an issue. To get on topic over the years I've used a number of things deemed bad with full success. An example was a few Altair era board with green crud plus dirt from the prior holder storing them. The green crud was the gold over copper plated contacts without nickel over copper. I decided to keep them and ran them through the dishwasher with the usual dishwasher caustic cleaner (cascade) and the oven dry them. They came out looking better than factory and it even cleaned the contacts. They tested fine and I stripped the damaged gold and re-plated the contacts with electroless tin (didn't have the materials for nickel then gold) and sill have them. Back then the locals on the board told me the boards would be ruined. When doing repairs or restoration the person/organization doing it needs to fist have goals, then process, and the skills to implement them and maybe even mitigate side effects. What process they use and can apply is dependent on available materials and the available skills. Our advantage now is is world wide near instant communication to ask what is best, easy, fast, or cheap. I envy the chance to restore a LGP-30 or for that fact play with one. Many of the things I remember mid sixties on are now gone or were rare then. Like small desk sized drum computers using transistors or first generation IC (RTL and RDTL). Allison From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Jan 6 12:27:21 2017 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 13:27:21 -0500 Subject: Yugoslavian Computer Magazine Cover Girls of the 1980s and 1990s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170106182721.GK12724@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Liam Proven [170106 12:46]: > An image gallery of cheesy -- and cheese-cakey -- magazine covers from > what were for me the golden days. > > But the UK mags weren't ever like this. > > Some of the names, and the typos, are highly amusing. > > http://imgur.com/gallery/3Jlqh There was text in those pics? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 6 13:54:01 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 11:54:01 -0800 Subject: Morrow MD-3P Portable MicroDecision Message-ID: www.ebay.com/itm/302178528335 bought for the CHM collection. This is the first one I've ever seen. I don't remember if the Morrow sons auctioned one off when they were selling off George's shop. It's essentially a MicroDecision III and MT-70 terminal according to the notes I scanned. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Jan 6 13:52:18 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 11:52:18 -0800 Subject: Homebrew Z80 Message-ID: <004301d26856$6413efb0$2c3bcf10$@bettercomputing.net> Hey guys.. I bought this Homebrew Z80 machine from what I assume is the early 80s (going by the chips). Pretty sure it's a Netronics keyboard but wondering if any of you have seen a design like this one. I'm just curious if it came from a magazine article or something as it goes beyond the typical basic homebrew and even appears to have some ROMs. I'm not sure what the TOS ROM is though. I've put some pics of it here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4pq0-BHd2x6bjY3MTRZbGRCQmM?usp=shar ing Thoughts/opinions welcome. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jan 6 15:47:24 2017 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 22:47:24 +0100 Subject: Yugoslavian Computer Magazine Cover Girls of the 1980s and 1990s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170106214724.GA4079@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Jan 06, 2017 at 06:45:56PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > An image gallery of cheesy -- and cheese-cakey -- magazine covers from > what were for me the golden days. > But the UK mags weren't ever like this. However, CRASH and Zzap!64 had some rather homoerotic covers instead, painted by Oli Frey. Just the thing for confused teenage boys still too young to reach the top shelf in the newsagent's. He's still around, and sells some right mucky paintings these days. From bob at jfcl.com Fri Jan 6 12:27:15 2017 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 10:27:15 -0800 Subject: Spinning up RL02 w/o head load ? (was Cleaning RK05 packs) In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <009a01d2684a$81cc1570$85644050$@com> > Rick Bensene wrote: >1) I first mount the pack in a drive that has a good absolute filter, and has > had the head load disabled, and spin it for a few hours. Speaking of spinning up a pack without loading the heads, can anyone tell me how to do this on an RL01/2 drive? Thanks, Bob Armstrong From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 12:45:03 2017 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:45:03 -0600 Subject: Seeking English version of LGP-30 Maintenance Manual Message-ID: Christian Corti had made available the German version of the LGP-30 Maintenance Manual, copied here: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/LGP-30MaintenanceManual-German.pdf Ed Thelen had OCR?d and translated some of the pages, but I?m looking for a copy of the complete English version if someone has it available. A search of the CBI archives didn?t turn up anything, either. If only paper copies exist, I would be glad to pay postage, scan, and send back the manual if someone out there has it. Thanks- Cory From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 6 16:22:59 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 14:22:59 -0800 Subject: Morrow MD-3P Portable MicroDecision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6633ce85-fb73-22f2-cfeb-19801e9831cb@sydex.com> On 01/06/2017 11:54 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > www.ebay.com/itm/302178528335 > > bought for the CHM collection. > > > This is the first one I've ever seen. I don't remember if the Morrow > sons auctioned one off when they were selling off George's shop. > > It's essentially a MicroDecision III and MT-70 terminal according to > the notes I scanned. Nice looking unit, but no--I've never seen another. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 6 19:25:00 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 20:25:00 -0500 Subject: Spinning up RL02 w/o head load ? (was Cleaning RK05 packs) In-Reply-To: <009a01d2684a$81cc1570$85644050$@com> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> <009a01d2684a$81cc1570$85644050$@com> Message-ID: <5B5CCA5F-04E7-4477-9590-3F447B690605@comcast.net> > On Jan 6, 2017, at 1:27 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: > >> Rick Bensene wrote: > >> 1) I first mount the pack in a drive that has a good absolute filter, and > has >> had the head load disabled, and spin it for a few hours. > > Speaking of spinning up a pack without loading the heads, can anyone tell > me how to do this on an RL01/2 drive? I don't know a specific answer, but one would think unplugging the power to the head actuator coils would do the job. paul From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 22:01:06 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 22:01:06 -0600 Subject: Yugoslavian Computer Magazine Cover Girls of the 1980s and 1990s In-Reply-To: <20170106214724.GA4079@mooli.org.uk> References: <20170106214724.GA4079@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: I liked the one with the guy seated at a "desk" which is apparently outfitted with nothing more than a color dot-matrix printer and a telephone set. Must be a serious power-user, then.. But, at least to my eye, the women are much more attractive than the typical eastern-european models - with their unending parade of angular eyes and faces with unnaturally high cheekbones. On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Fri, Jan 06, 2017 at 06:45:56PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > > An image gallery of cheesy -- and cheese-cakey -- magazine covers from > > what were for me the golden days. > > But the UK mags weren't ever like this. > > However, CRASH and Zzap!64 had some rather homoerotic covers instead, > painted > by Oli Frey. Just the thing for confused teenage boys still too young to > reach the > top shelf in the newsagent's. > > He's still around, and sells some right mucky paintings these days. > > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 23:46:39 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 05:46:39 +0000 Subject: Spinning up RL02 w/o head load ? (was Cleaning RK05 packs) In-Reply-To: <009a01d2684a$81cc1570$85644050$@com> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> <009a01d2684a$81cc1570$85644050$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 6:27 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: > Speaking of spinning up a pack without loading the heads, can anyone tell > me how to do this on an RL01/2 drive? I am pretty sure you unplug the positioner motor from the DC power supply PCB. You have to remove the latter (4 corner screws and a plastic cover that identifies the testpoints) and it's a 2 pin plug on the underside (component side) of the board. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 16:24:11 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 17:24:11 -0500 Subject: Seeking English version of LGP-30 Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I might have an extra manual or two, send me a private email with your mailing address On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > Christian Corti had made available the German version of the LGP-30 > Maintenance Manual, copied here: > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/LGP-30MaintenanceManual-German.pdf > > > Ed Thelen had OCR?d and translated some of the pages, but I?m looking for a > copy of the complete English version if someone has it available. A search > of the CBI archives didn?t turn up anything, either. > > > > If only paper copies exist, I would be glad to pay postage, scan, and send > back the manual if someone out there has it. Thanks- Cory > From wheagy at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 18:31:38 2017 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 19:31:38 -0500 Subject: Boot Loader for 3P+S on IMSAI Message-ID: I have an IMSAI that I am restoring. The basics appear to be working (front panel, CPU and RAM cards). I have a Processor Tech, 3P+S card that is next on the list for testing. I have the manual, but the card was not configured for RS-232...not sure what it was configured for but it doesn't match anything in the manual. I plan to reconfigure it for RS-232. I'm trying to locate boot loader code for that board to allow serial uploading of files from a PC to the IMSAI? I have boot loader code for a 2SIO board on an Altair that I restored awhile back, and would like to find something similar for the 3P+S. I want to be able to toggle in a boot loader routine and then initiate an upload from the PC to IMSAI -- something similar to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwC1T9oLK1U&t=212s (at 1:10s in) but with a 3P+S board on an IMSAI. Also, a picture of your RS-232 configured card and wiring of the edge connectors would be helpful to make sure I get things right. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Win wheagy at gmail.com? From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 20:32:51 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 21:32:51 -0500 Subject: Boot Loader for 3P+S on IMSAI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The manual pretty much has the exact config for that port 20 is all you have to remember Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Jan 6, 2017 7:41 PM, "Win Heagy" wrote: > I have an IMSAI that I am restoring. The basics appear to be working > (front panel, CPU and RAM cards). I have a Processor Tech, 3P+S card > that is next on the list for testing. I have the manual, but the card > was not configured for RS-232...not sure what it was configured for > but it doesn't match anything in the manual. I plan to reconfigure it > for RS-232. I'm trying to locate boot loader code for that board to > allow serial uploading of files from a PC to the IMSAI? I have boot > loader code for a 2SIO board on an Altair that I restored awhile back, > and would like to find something similar for the 3P+S. I want to be > able to toggle in a boot loader routine and then initiate an upload > from the PC to IMSAI -- something similar to this > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwC1T9oLK1U&t=212s > (at 1:10s in) but with a 3P+S board on an IMSAI. > > Also, a picture of your RS-232 configured card and wiring of the edge > connectors would be helpful to make sure I get things right. Any help > is appreciated. > > Thanks, Win > wheagy at gmail.com? > From rickb at bensene.com Fri Jan 6 20:46:38 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 18:46:38 -0800 Subject: Drum Computers (Was Cleaning things (was Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update))) Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> Allison wrote; >I envy the chance to restore a LGP-30 or for that fact play with one. >Many of the things I remember >mid sixties on are now gone or were rare then. Like small desk sized drum computers using transistors or first generation IC (RTL and RDTL). I so regret not having rescued an old computer that I played with through all four years of high school. The machine was made by Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing (aka 3M Corporation). Today, there seems to be no record that 3M ever was in the computer business. But...it was. The system was designed expressly for process control. Kind of makes sense for 3M to develop a system like this, since most of the manufacturing they did needed process controls, and at the time, computers were getting to into that role in place of electromechanical systems. The system was given to our high school by the local Natural Gas public utility that used the system from the mid-1960's through the early-1970's for monitoring and controlling gas flow in pipelines. It was replaced by more modern computer, a PDP-11 of some variety, IIRC. This 3M machine was a dual processor system, with two identical CPUs that could communicate to each other through a common register located in an I/O rack. The original process control software was designed so that both CPUs would operate in tandem, each doing a different part of the job. One CPU mainly did all of the I/O interfacing and data normalization, and the other CPU did the number crunching and processing for the process control, feeding results back to the I/O CPU to control the physical stuff, and generating reports on an IBM typebar-type output typewriter. Operator interaction with the process control system was through a Teletype 33-ASR terminal. The CPUs were transistorized. I recall that the cards were arranged in a U fashion looking at the CPU chassis from the top, some power supply circuitry and relays at the top of the U, the circuit cards making up the sides and bottom of the U, and the drum memory module in the middle.. Each CPU was something like 12RU height, and were in a small desk-high standard 19" equipment rack, with the CPUs stacked one above the other. The CPUs were 24-bit word machines, with an 8K-word magnetic drum as main memory. Instructions had five bits for the opcode, and two address fields, one for operand location (drum address in block/track/sector format) or in the case of some instructions a short constant number), and also a next instruction address (again in block/track/sector format). The I/O rack had the interprocessor communication register, along with registers for reading the time from a transistorized Parabam real-time clock (HH:MM:SS) in 24-hour time (The clock had those wonderful projection-type incandescent displays to show the current time), a Teletype current-loop interface at 110 baud, an interface for communication the IBM wide-carriage output typewriter (which we never we able to get working), and a whole slew of relay outputs, contact closure inputs, digital to analog converters with line drivers, and comparators with counters connected that could act as software-driven analog to digital converters, event counters, etc. One last output interface was a register that was write-only that could enable or disable an old Mallory Sonalert that would generate an ear-splitting shriek when turned on. There were also two banks of decimal thumbwheel switches, one with three digits, and another with 8 digits, that could be read from the CPU 4-bits at a time through an I/O register. When I got to high school in 1974, the drum in one of the CPUs had suffered a bearing failure and crashed hard. The instructor of the computing curriculum looked into seeing if the drum could be repaired, but it would have been prohibitively expensive, so the drum was removed from this CPU and used as a prop for illustrating different types of memory technology to his students. The other CPU ran fine through my years of high school, and I learned a great deal about programming at the machine level from the old 3M (I for the life of me can't remember the model number of the machine). I fondly remember writing an "alarm clock" program where a time in HHMMSS form could be wheeled into the low six digits of the eight-digit thumbwheel register, and when the time there matched the time on the Parabam clock, it'd fire off the Sonalert, and print an arbitrary message on the teletype repeatedly until the program was halted by dialing a stop code read from the three digit thumbwheel switch bank when the program was started. Once the program was started, I'd scramble the three digit thumbwheels, so no one but me would know the code to stop the program. You might think that you could just press the "STOP" button on the console...but there was a Plexiglas cover with a small padlock lock on it that covered the console controls...and I had a key). So, I'd set a time during one of the 1st year computer classes, start the program, and lock the cover over the console. In the middle of the class, the Sonalert would go off, and the teletype would rattle out "HELP, HELP!! I'M TRAPPED IN HERE!!! LET ME OUT!!!" with Control-G (ring the Teletype bell) interspersed amongst the characters). It would cause just a bit of a fuss. After watching the chaos for a few moments, I would calmly walk in and dial the code to stop the program. Needless to say, after I did this a few times, I was kindly asked by the computer instructor not to do that anymore. It was great fun while it lasted. The machine had no index registers. So, indexing meant writing self-modifying code. Never was bounds checking more important than when you were writing self-modifying code. The machine had a hardware loader, which would accept block/track/sector addresses followed by a space, then the 8-digit octal representation of the word to be placed at that drum address. The loader was initiated by pressing a "LOAD" button on the console when the CPU was stopped. The loader was fast enough to be able to take in programs from the tape reader on the 33-ASR Teletype hooked up to the machine. There were four other controls on the console not counting the main power switch. "STOP" (halted the machine), "CLEAR" (initialized the program counter and two accumulators (A & B) to zero), and "START", which started the CPU executing at the current program counter location, which most of the time was 0/0/0 because you'd press CLEAR before START, and have a jump at 0/0/0 to branch to your program. The STOP and START buttons were lighted, so you could tell if the machine was running or halted. The last control was a momentary toggle switch, that would single-step one instruction when the machine was in STOP state. There were five neon lamp indicators on the console that showed the current instruction opcode to be executed. With such minimalistic controls, debugging was interesting, to say the least. When powered up, the machine would have both the START and STOP lights turned off until the drum got up to speed and everything was synchronized, and then the lamp in the stop key would light up to tell you the machine was ready. The machine was completely bit-serial in nature, minimizing the number of flip flops. I recall that the circuit boards in the machine were something like 5x7 inches (give or take), and were not densely packed with components. They were fiberglass boards, with traces only on one side, and jumper wires on the component side. I remember date codes on the transistors as being from the 1963 - 1964 timeframe. I recollect that there were something around 48 circuit boards in each CPU. We occasionally had to scrounge boards out of the decommissioned second CPU to fix faults that developed in the running machine...it was musical board swapping to troubleshoot because we didn't have any schematics or service documentation for the machine. The machine was quite slow, even if you wrote the code to use instruction timing to optimize placement of instructions and operands on the drum to minimize latency. I recall writing a program that I optimized as best as I possibly could, and the machine couldn't output to the Teletype at its full rated speed when typing out text from an arbitrarily located text buffer. It'd do about 9 characters per second. The machine had interrupt capability, but most of the interrupt processing logic was in the I/O rack, and something was amiss with the logic, and we were never able to get it to work properly. So, alll I/O was CPU polling, which explains part of why the I/O was slow. I managed to write a minimal DEC FOCAL interpreter for the machine. IIt was really slow, but it worked. The floating point math routines were the most difficult. I had learned FOCAL on a DEC PDP 8 (straight 8) in a class I took when I was in 8th grade, and it seemed simple enough that I could make it work on the 3M machine. I had thought about trying to do BASIC for the machine, but I decided on FOCAL because it was a lot less complex. Glad I chose FOCAL, because It barely fit, even in somewhat minimalized form, on the 8K drum. It was very slow having to pack/unpack three ASCII characters into 24-bit words, but to make everything fit, I had to do it. And, with only two registers (accumulator A and B), and the interprocessor communication 24-bit register that was accessible through I/O instructions, it was quite a challenge. Anyway, I graduated in 1977. I went back during the 1979 school year to visit, and the whole place had changed. The amazing computer curriculum teacher was gone, promoted to somewhere in the district administration, and some younger new guy was there whom I took a pretty immediate dislike to. This was his first year teaching at the school, and the first thing he did was call a scrap dealer to come take away the 3M machine, along with another old machine that was donated to the school...hardly a computer, more like an accounting machine, made by SCM, called a 7816 Typetronic. They were both gone, and I was really angry that they had gone off to scrap. Also, the IMSAI 8080 microcomputer that a small group of students including myself had built from kit form as a high school project during the end of Junior and first part of Senior year in high school was nowhere to be seen. In their place were a number of shiny new Apple II computers. These, to me, seemed mere toys compared to the "real" computer that had gone off to scrap. Had I known this was going to happen, I would have somehow come up with a way to rescue the 3M machine (it wasn't small, nor lightweight) to some kind of safe storage until I would have the resources to restore them. Fortunately, through pure luck, I did manage to find that old IMSAI that we built....and it is in my collection today, and works great. A story for another time. So, even though I was born a bit late to have been "in the prime time" of the earlier computers, I did get the rare experience for a person my age of working with a machine that used magnetic drum memory as primary memory, and I wouldn't trade what I learned from that old beast for anything. Rick Bensene From bob at jfcl.com Fri Jan 6 22:08:06 2017 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 20:08:06 -0800 Subject: Spinning up RL02 w/o head load ? (was Cleaning RK05 packs) In-Reply-To: <5B5CCA5F-04E7-4477-9590-3F447B690605@comcast.net> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> <009a01d2684a$81cc1570$85644050$@com> <5B5CCA5F-04E7-4477-9590-3F447B690605@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000601d2689b$a6464b90$f2d2e2b0$@com> >Paul Koning wrote: >one would think unplugging the power to the head actuator coils ... One might think that, and that plan works for an RK05, but an RL02 is smarter. Unless the heads go on cylinder within a few seconds of the head load signal, the drive logic just faults and spins down again. Not very useful... What's needed is a way to stall or fake out the drive startup state machine logic. Bob From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 01:59:15 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 23:59:15 -0800 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <348402da-bb60-8854-0f69-f9a90e5c971e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <039e01d268bb$f16de590$d449b0b0$@gmail.com> Here is the exact reference for the clean room wipes: Berkshire DURX 670 Item #: DR670.0404.10 4"x4" (10cm x10 cm) Non-woven Polyester/Cellulose And isopropyl alcohol we use is 99.9%, not just 99 as I said. Marc -----Original Message----- We use 6"x6" clean room rated wipes (I think they were either Berkshires or Kimwipes) from Grainger and 99% isopropyl alcohol from Fry's. Won't scratch, free of microscopic dust and lint, and 99% alcohol will leave no drying marks (it's typically the last rinse in IC manufacturing). May cost you a bit. Wipe your work area before and use clean room gloves. Marc > On Jan 5, 2017, at 6:40 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > isopropyl alcohol works. TFE is better, if you have some stashed. > > If you can find them anywhere, Texwipe made a plastic wand that looks > like a tongue depressor with a slit down the middle and a lint free > sleeve called the Texsleeve (tx300 sleeve, tx800 wand) that you would > use to clean heads > > Minor head crashes leave a tar-like residue that you need to remove. A > pack inspector is a handy thing to have (spinle with microscope and > illuminator on the rack and pinion) to look for surface damage. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 02:09:18 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 00:09:18 -0800 Subject: Morrow MD-3P Portable MicroDecision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03a001d268bd$591c9a00$0b55ce00$@gmail.com> Incredibly clean unit. Museum quality ;-) Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Friday, January 06, 2017 11:54 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Morrow MD-3P Portable MicroDecision www.ebay.com/itm/302178528335 bought for the CHM collection. This is the first one I've ever seen. I don't remember if the Morrow sons auctioned one off when they were selling off George's shop. It's essentially a MicroDecision III and MT-70 terminal according to the notes I scanned. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 7 03:42:28 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 09:42:28 +0000 Subject: Spinning up RL02 w/o head load ? (was Cleaning RK05 packs) In-Reply-To: <000601d2689b$a6464b90$f2d2e2b0$@com> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> <009a01d2684a$81cc1570$85644050$@com> <5B5CCA5F-04E7-4477-9590-3F447B690605@comcast.net> <000601d2689b$a6464b90$f2d2e2b0$@com> Message-ID: On 07/01/2017 04:08, Robert Armstrong w#rote: >> Paul Koning wrote: >> one would think unplugging the power to the head actuator coils ... > > One might think that, and that plan works for an RK05, but an RL02 is > smarter. Unless the heads go on cylinder within a few seconds of the head > load signal, the drive logic just faults and spins down again. Not very > useful... What's needed is a way to stall or fake out the drive startup > state machine logic. I haven't done this for a while, but I think it might work if you also disable the SK TO (Seek Timeout) signal on the main logic board, and maybe also POS SIG (Position Signal). There are several setup and adjustment procedures that require one to move the heads by hand, including right back onto the loading ramp. You'd do this with the cover open, the logic board swung up and resting on its clip at the back of the drive, and with the amplifier box turned to a vertical position sitting on its right-hand supports. The procedures require the above signals to be disabled, and the servo drive (the single inline connector under the amplifier box) to be disconnected. However, they all start by pressing LOAD and allowing the heads to load at least as far as the loading area at the outside edge of the disk before disconnecting the servo drive; I can't remember if the heads actually go beyond that into the area where the data tracks are. How you disable the signals depends on the version of the main logic board - there are three different types, all described in the pocket service guide. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Jan 7 05:06:32 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 03:06:32 -0800 Subject: Drum Computers (Was Cleaning things (was Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update))) In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <2cba48a4-078c-5b53-703f-c98aa8807cc6@jwsss.com> On 1/6/2017 6:46 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Today, there seems to be no record that 3M ever was in the computer business. But...it was. They inflicted the write only media on the world that became QIC. So they were in the biz long enough to do that. Media never intended to be recorded at the densities most devices recorded at, and never intended to have the tape move at the speeds it did inside the cartridge. Won't go on and on about it, old topic. They did make a tape drive of some sort, I recall seeing they marketed something to read and write their own tapes a very long time ago. thanks jim From r3trohub at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 05:36:57 2017 From: r3trohub at gmail.com (Vintage Perfect) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 11:36:57 +0000 Subject: Does anybody have a KIM-1 for sale? Message-ID: Hi all! Wishing you all a happy new year :) I'm looking for a KIM-1 system and/or any other related hardware, the earlier the better! If you have one you'd like to sell, please drop me a line :) -A From chrise at pobox.com Sat Jan 7 07:46:15 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2017 07:46:15 -0600 Subject: Drum Computers (Was Cleaning things (was Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update))) In-Reply-To: <2cba48a4-078c-5b53-703f-c98aa8807cc6@jwsss.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> <2cba48a4-078c-5b53-703f-c98aa8807cc6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1EE0C8CE-A7E7-4C79-B01A-F27F505A4124@pobox.com> On January 7, 2017 5:06:32 AM CST, jim stephens wrote: > > >On 1/6/2017 6:46 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: >> Today, there seems to be no record that 3M ever was in the computer >business. But...it was. >They inflicted the write only media on the world that became QIC. So >they were in the biz long enough to do that. > >Media never intended to be recorded at the densities most devices >recorded at, and never intended to have the tape move at the speeds it >did inside the cartridge. Won't go on and on about it, old topic. > >They did make a tape drive of some sort, I recall seeing they marketed >something to read and write their own tapes a very long time ago. > >thanks >jim Everything "computer" that 3M did became Imation's and the Imation world headquarters here in Oakdale MN is now a giant empty building with a tattered "for lease" tarp covering up the Imation logo sign at the entrance to the property. Rumor has it the facility may become the HQ for a furniture store called Slumberland. Oh, the irony. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 08:37:04 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 15:37:04 +0100 Subject: Homebrew Z80 In-Reply-To: <004301d26856$6413efb0$2c3bcf10$@bettercomputing.net> References: <004301d26856$6413efb0$2c3bcf10$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On 6 January 2017 at 20:52, Brad H wrote: > > > I've put some pics of it here: > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4pq0-BHd2x6bjY3MTRZbGRCQmM?usp=shar > ing > > > > Thoughts/opinions welcome. The logo is right there on one of the boards. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/RadioElectronics/TV_Typewriter.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Typewriter -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 08:39:31 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 15:39:31 +0100 Subject: Yugoslavian Computer Magazine Cover Girls of the 1980s and 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <20170106214724.GA4079@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 7 January 2017 at 05:01, drlegendre . wrote: > I liked the one with the guy seated at a "desk" which is apparently > outfitted with nothing more than a color dot-matrix printer and a telephone > set. Must be a serious power-user, then.. Yes, I liked that. And WORDPERFERCT. :-D > But, at least to my eye, the women are much more attractive than the > typical eastern-european models - with their unending parade of angular > eyes and faces with unnaturally high cheekbones. I live in (arguably) Eastern Europe. If that's your stereotype of Slavic women, I can assure you it's incorrect. OTOH this is their reaction to British beauty... http://metro.co.uk/2014/11/21/czech-gossip-site-blurs-out-miss-great-britains-face-because-british-women-are-not-beautiful-4957085/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 7 09:01:50 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 07:01:50 -0800 Subject: Drum Computers (Was Cleaning things (was Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update))) In-Reply-To: <2cba48a4-078c-5b53-703f-c98aa8807cc6@jwsss.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> <2cba48a4-078c-5b53-703f-c98aa8807cc6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <587102DE.2070103@bitsavers.org> On 1/7/17 3:06 AM, jim stephens wrote: > They did make a tape drive of some sort They made several generations, what I've found on their cartridge tape drives is under 3M on bitsavers. All use variations of their trade secret or what eventually became QIC standard tape formats. The 1/4" tape drive division was sold to Gorgens Industries in San Diego further discussion at http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-52604.html From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Jan 7 09:34:29 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2017 07:34:29 -0800 Subject: Homebrew Z80 Message-ID: You might be looking at my TVT project.. sorry. ?The z80 computer is mixed in there. ?Here's a direct shot of its motherboard: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4pq0-BHd2x6WmVQZjctMzFadlk/view?usp=drivesdk Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Liam Proven Date: 2017-01-07 6:37 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Homebrew Z80 On 6 January 2017 at 20:52, Brad H wrote: > > > I've put some pics of it here: > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4pq0-BHd2x6bjY3MTRZbGRCQmM?usp=shar > ing > > > > Thoughts/opinions welcome. The logo is right there on one of the boards. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/RadioElectronics/TV_Typewriter.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Typewriter -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From jsw at ieee.org Sat Jan 7 10:44:06 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 10:44:06 -0600 Subject: Spinning up RL02 w/o head load ? (was Cleaning RK05 packs) In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> <009a01d2684a$81cc1570$85644050$@com> <5B5CCA5F-04E7-4477-9590-3F447B690605@comcast.net> <000601d2689b$a6464b90$f2d2e2b0$@com> Message-ID: <534B137D-FFBA-4CAA-9BF6-2B374CE90C24@ieee.org> > On Jan 7, 2017, at 3:42 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 07/01/2017 04:08, Robert Armstrong w#rote: >>> Paul Koning wrote: >>> one would think unplugging the power to the head actuator coils ... >> >> One might think that, and that plan works for an RK05, but an RL02 is >> smarter. Unless the heads go on cylinder within a few seconds of the head >> load signal, the drive logic just faults and spins down again. Not very >> useful... What's needed is a way to stall or fake out the drive startup >> state machine logic. > > I haven't done this for a while, but I think it might work if you also disable the SK TO (Seek Timeout) signal on the main logic board, and maybe also POS SIG (Position Signal). > > There are several setup and adjustment procedures that require one to move the heads by hand, including right back onto the loading ramp. You'd do this with the cover open, the logic board swung up and resting on its clip at the back of the drive, and with the amplifier box turned to a vertical position sitting on its right-hand supports. The procedures require the above signals to be disabled, and the servo drive (the single inline connector under the amplifier box) to be disconnected. However, they all start by pressing LOAD and allowing the heads to load at least as far as the loading area at the outside edge of the disk before disconnecting the servo drive; I can't remember if the heads actually go beyond that into the area where the data tracks are. > > How you disable the signals depends on the version of the main logic board - there are three different types, all described in the pocket service guide. > > -- > Pete > Pete Turnbull What is the best way to approach evaluating old RL02 Packs for cleaning? Does anyone have experience opening up all the little plastic tabs on the covers? I have a large stash of RL02?s that I had planned to backup. I was planning on just doing a visual inspection on each before loading. The only disassembly information I have found uses the proverbial hammer - http://williambader.com/museum/vax/43rl02topremoval.jpg Jerry From js at cimmeri.com Sat Jan 7 11:29:46 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2017 12:29:46 -0500 Subject: Spinning up RL02 w/o head load ? (was Cleaning RK05 packs) In-Reply-To: <534B137D-FFBA-4CAA-9BF6-2B374CE90C24@ieee.org> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> <009a01d2684a$81cc1570$85644050$@com> <5B5CCA5F-04E7-4477-9590-3F447B690605@comcast.net> <000601d2689b$a6464b90$f2d2e2b0$@com> <534B137D-FFBA-4CAA-9BF6-2B374CE90C24@ieee.org> Message-ID: <5871258A.7050300@cimmeri.com> On 1/7/2017 11:44 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > What is the best way to approach evaluating old RL02 Packs for > cleaning? Does anyone have experience opening up all the little > plastic tabs on the covers? I have a large stash of RL02?s that I had > planned to backup. I was planning on just doing a visual inspection on > each before loading. The only disassembly information I have found > uses the proverbial hammer - > http://williambader.com/museum/vax/43rl02topremoval.jpg > Jerry With mine, in a darkened room, I shone a flashlight in perpendicularly to reveal what debris was on the platter surface. In all cases of the few packs I had to process, there was a light coating of dust on the platters, so I disassembled the pack and washed as previously posted. For me, they had to be dust free before use. They were not hard to diassemble, but there was a trick to the handle part (which I forget). - J. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 7 11:56:52 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 09:56:52 -0800 Subject: Drum Computers (Was Cleaning things (was Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update))) In-Reply-To: <587102DE.2070103@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> <2cba48a4-078c-5b53-703f-c98aa8807cc6@jwsss.com> <587102DE.2070103@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <798f79bd-cbbb-8401-d131-1b923f26de75@sydex.com> On 01/07/2017 07:01 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/7/17 3:06 AM, jim stephens wrote: > >> They did make a tape drive of some sort > > They made several generations, what I've found on their cartridge > tape drives is under 3M on bitsavers. All use variations of their > trade secret or what eventually became QIC standard tape formats. > > The 1/4" tape drive division was sold to Gorgens Industries in San > Diego You can find non-3M tape drives with 3M-copyrighted ROMs inside. I have one such--an ADIC Iotamat drive, which uses, IIRC, a 6800 CPU. As far as QIC, goes, it was cheap and it aged badly. I recall calling 3M (long before the Imation spinoff) asking about a DC300 tape cart that I had where the driver misfunctioned and the tape came off the reel. I was advised by the tech support guy to disassemble the cartridge and moisten the loose end of the tape with saliva and stick it to the takeup reel and manually wind the tape until I reached the BOT marker holes, then reassemble the cartridge. It worked, but he seemed to be a bit ashamed to tell me to use saliva as a temporary adhesive. FWIW, I'd always found the techs at 3M/Imation or the Federal operation set up by them to be very helpful. None of which makes me like QIC any better. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 7 12:01:21 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 18:01:21 +0000 Subject: Spinning up RL02 w/o head load ? (was Cleaning RK05 packs) In-Reply-To: <534B137D-FFBA-4CAA-9BF6-2B374CE90C24@ieee.org> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> <009a01d2684a$81cc1570$85644050$@com> <5B5CCA5F-04E7-4477-9590-3F447B690605@comcast.net> <000601d2689b$a6464b90$f2d2e2b0$@com> <534B137D-FFBA-4CAA-9BF6-2B374CE90C24@ieee.org> Message-ID: <8be53e14-1a2c-00ef-2e34-ce39b4149563@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/01/2017 16:44, Jerry Weiss wrote: > What is the best way to approach evaluating old RL02 Packs for > cleaning? Does anyone have experience opening up all the little > plastic tabs on the covers? I have a large stash of RL02?s that I had > planned to backup. I was planning on just doing a visual inspection > on each before loading. That part is easy. Turn it upside down, and for each of the tabs, insert a small (1/4") flat-blade screwdriver into the rectangular hole by each tab, turn it so that the side moves away from the bottom cover sufficiently, then slip a smaller screwdriver into the gap between the side and the bottom cover, and lever it up slightly. Repeat until you have all the tabs undone and the bottom cover lifts off. That lets you at the lower surface. I can't remember how to take the platter out; IIRC it involves dong something to the cover on the handle. I just use a torch to look at it, through the side. I wouldn't worry about a little fine dust. It's not an RK05 and they're very robust. I once had one make a wierd noise when spun up - the "ting" did sound a little like an RK05 head crash. It turned out a spider had decided it was a good warm dry place to live, but all I had to do was clean the rest of the spider off the head. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 7 12:22:13 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 18:22:13 +0000 Subject: Spinning up RL02 w/o head load ? (was Cleaning RK05 packs) In-Reply-To: <8be53e14-1a2c-00ef-2e34-ce39b4149563@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> <009a01d2684a$81cc1570$85644050$@com> <5B5CCA5F-04E7-4477-9590-3F447B690605@comcast.net> <000601d2689b$a6464b90$f2d2e2b0$@com> <534B137D-FFBA-4CAA-9BF6-2B374CE90C24@ieee.org> <8be53e14-1a2c-00ef-2e34-ce39b4149563@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <80914b5c-d05a-2c8b-10b9-a3f67abaa05a@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/01/2017 18:01, Pete Turnbull wrote: > That part is easy. Turn it upside down, and for each of the tabs, > insert a small (1/4") flat-blade screwdriver into the rectangular hole > by each tab, turn it so that the side moves away from the bottom cover > sufficiently, then slip a smaller screwdriver into the gap between the > side and the bottom cover, and lever it up slightly. Repeat until you > have all the tabs undone and the bottom cover lifts off. > > That lets you at the lower surface. I can't remember how to take the > platter out; IIRC it involves dong something to the cover on the handle. > I just use a torch to look at it, through the side. A little refresher (experimentation) later... Take the cover (the part with the slide) off the handle. Inside you'll see a white bar with two inset steel pins that hold the hooks that hold the platter hub. The handle pivots on plastic parts at each side; take them out. That lets you slide the whole handle, when it's in the down position, about 1/4" towards the edge. Do that, making sure the white plastic bar moves with the handle, and it will release the pins from the hooks and the platter will fall out (so do this with it resting on a safe surface - NOT in the lid, or the hub's magnets will stick it to the lid). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Jan 7 12:48:47 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 19:48:47 +0100 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> Hi I think you should sacrifice the RA80 for a working R80. I know there are several RA80 in the wild but I've never heard of a R80. On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 05:26:50PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > 3) Those that are of no use in the R80, but are not too hard to store > Personality board > Control panel > SDI cabling > I'm curious. I have an RM80 (which I intend to use as is). But would the RA80 personality board be possible to transplant into an RM80 to read or write its content? /P From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 7 12:54:09 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 13:54:09 -0500 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <1536C3C2-45D3-4BF5-B4C8-4090F4822E7F@comcast.net> > On Jan 7, 2017, at 1:48 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > ...I'm curious. I have an RM80 (which I intend to use as is). But would the > RA80 personality board be possible to transplant into an RM80 to read or > write its content? I doubt it. The RM80 uses a track format with a spare sector per track, while the RA80 using MSCP bad block replacement to deal with bad sectors. paul From sales at elecplus.com Sat Jan 7 13:14:22 2017 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 13:14:22 -0600 Subject: Vintage computer keyboards, computers, and other stuff Message-ID: <00d601d2691a$41519ee0$c3f4dca0$@com> Some is not so vintage, but most of it is. https://elecshopper.com Yes, I will ship internationally, but the value on the customs forms will reflect the actual price paid, as do the invoices. Look around, maybe find something interesting. The RSS feeds are at https://elecshopper.com/RSS if you want to keep an eye on new additions, sales, etc. More products are usually added every day. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 14:00:43 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 20:00:43 +0000 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > I think you should sacrifice the RA80 for a working R80. I know there > are several RA80 in the wild but I've never heard of a R80. Well, actually I think you own an R80 but don't know it :-) As I understand it, the R80 had the sort-of SMD interface. 2 cables (60 and 26 wires). It's not SMD, there are significant differences, but anyway. The RM80 is an R80 with a Massbus interface box in the stand. Or at least I think it is. I've not got any technical documentation on that unit. If you have one, can you tell me what the cabling between the drive and Massbus interface is? And if the 'personality board' (the smaller of the 2 hinged boards under the top cover) matches that in the R80 manuals. The RA80 has the SDI interface. The bare R80 (no external Massbus interface) was used with the IDC (Integrated Disk Controller) on the VAX11/730. That controller can link to up to 4 drives, one can be an R80, the others RL02s. I have the compact 11/730 configuration, a half-height rack containing the CPU, an R80 and a TS05 magtape (Cipher F880). There are basically the following modules in the drive : HDA : I am pretty sure the physical HDA is the same on all drives. The servo information should be the same too. Maybe the data surfaces are formatted differently. PSU : There are at least 2 versions of the PSU which are very different internally (so if you are working on one you need the RA82 printset from bitsavers as well!). But it's not drive-specific R/W PCB. Sits on top of the HDA and AFAIK is the same in all drives Microprocessor PCB. An 8085 and a lot of paralell I/O. It uses the 8155 RAM I/O chips and thr 8755 ROM I/O chips. And a lot of other logic too. The ROMs are different between the R80 and RA80, but the board is the same apart from that. Annoyingly the ROMs in the RA80 are in sockets, those in the R80 are not.... Servo PCB. A lot of analogue and digital circuitry to drive the positioner. AFAIK t's the same in all drives Personality PCB. The host interface. The RA80 and R80 ones are totally different for obvious reasons. Control panel. A few illuminated pushbutton switches. The R80 one is quite simple, the only electtonics on it are the lamp drivers. The RA80 one has the later drive select swtiching (wider ready lamp with a cap that you break pegs off to set the drive number) and also has the drive serial number, revision level, etc set by DIP switches and DIP shunts. It still plugs into the same connector on the microprocessor PCB and thus the RA80 control panel is stuffed with multiplexers. Getting back to my dilemma. I need an R80. I do not need an RA80. I may try to run the internal diagnostics on the RA80. Check the PSU first of course. I almost certainly will take the gas strut brackets, etc from the RA80. Making them is a right pain!. I would consider trying to source the screws, etc, and make the missing cables for the R80, but only if somebody really wants an RA80 intact. I don't want to keep the thing in my machine room for no purpose. Rest assured that any 'useful' bits will be saved no matter what. I will certanly keep all PCBs, HDA, PSU, motor, etc. > On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 05:26:50PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> 3) Those that are of no use in the R80, but are not too hard to store >> Personality board >> Control panel >> SDI cabling >> > > I'm curious. I have an RM80 (which I intend to use as is). But would the > RA80 personality board be possible to transplant into an RM80 to read or > write its content? It would certainly need the RA80 ROMs and contol panel. I think then you could get a working drive, but it may well not be able to read the format of an RM80 HDA. You could probably reformat the HDA to work, but that rather defeats the purpose of what you are doing. -tony > > /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Jan 7 14:08:14 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 21:08:14 +0100 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: References: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20170107200814.GW5974@Update.UU.SE> On Sat, Jan 07, 2017 at 08:00:43PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > The RM80 is an R80 with a Massbus interface box in the stand. Or at > least I think it is. I've not got any technical documentation on that unit. I sounds like what I've got.. > If you have one, can you tell me what the cabling between the drive and > Massbus interface is? And if the 'personality board' (the smaller of the > 2 hinged boards under the top cover) matches that in the R80 manuals. I can't get to it at the moment. But I'm cleaning that area in the comming weeks and can look. /P From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 14:22:33 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 20:22:33 +0000 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: <20170107200814.GW5974@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> <20170107200814.GW5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sat, Jan 07, 2017 at 08:00:43PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> The RM80 is an R80 with a Massbus interface box in the stand. Or at >> least I think it is. I've not got any technical documentation on that unit. > > I sounds like what I've got.. > >> If you have one, can you tell me what the cabling between the drive and >> Massbus interface is? And if the 'personality board' (the smaller of the >> 2 hinged boards under the top cover) matches that in the R80 manuals. > > I can't get to it at the moment. But I'm cleaning that area in the > comming weeks and can look. I've just re-read the printsets... The microprocesor boards in the R80 and RA80 printsets are different. They have different layouts. But the circuitry looks at first glance to be much the same. Whether this is just a revision level thing I don't know. I will look over it more carefully. At first glace the external connectors seem to have the same pinouts. Interestingly the personallity board in the R80 printset is called the RM80 personality board. Suggesting that as I thought the RM80 is the R80 with a Massbus interface box. The microprocessor board includes the write data encoder and the read data separator. There is a clock/data pair for each to the personality board. The R80 (and thus RM80) personality board just buffers them and sends them to the 26 way host cable. The low level format is thus determined by the controller. I have no reason to assume that an RM80's controller uses the same format as the VAX11/730 IDC. The RA80 personality board has some circuitry between the clock/data lines to the microprocessor board (and thus eventually to the heads) and the host cables. But not that much circuitry, I've not looked at it seriously yet (after all it's the one part I will not be using). Certainly not enough to have a sector data buffer. So my guess is that againg the host does a lot of the low-ish level stuff. -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 7 15:27:58 2017 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 21:27:58 -0000 Subject: Yugoslavian Computer Magazine Cover Girls of the 1980s and 1990s References: <20170106214724.GA4079@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <007e01d26933$bcb039c0$5caf200a@user8459cef6fa> On Fri, Jan 06, 2017 at 06:45:56PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > An image gallery of cheesy -- and cheese-cakey -- magazine covers from > what were for me the golden days. > But the UK mags weren't ever like this. Most weren't. I have an issue of one of the unofficial Mega Drive magazines from the early 90's which did have a hot picture of Madchen Amick inside the back cover. Regards, Andrew Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk www.aliensrcooluk.com From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 16:16:51 2017 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 16:16:51 -0600 Subject: Unknown keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does anyone have an idea what this keyboard went to? The "here is" key tells me it's likely a terminal, but the hex key pad is throwing me off. Pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/zTgR2 Thanks, Kyle From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 7 10:44:42 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 11:44:42 -0500 Subject: Drum Computers In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <6D07E4A0-7A62-42F5-8383-6FF256857F77@comcast.net> > On Jan 6, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > ... > The machine was made by Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing (aka 3M Corporation). Today, there seems to be no record that 3M ever was in the computer business. But...it was. Not a drum computer but another example of a company not known for computers that nevertheless built one: Goodyear. A supercomputer called STARAN, a very odd architecture. Actually based on an earlier one built at Sanders Associates (a defense contractor) invented by a friend of ours, William Shooman. The Computer Museum, back when it was at Digital in their Marlboro, MA building, had pieces of the STARAN. paul From isking at uw.edu Sat Jan 7 16:36:32 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 14:36:32 -0800 Subject: Unknown keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Does anyone have an idea what this keyboard went to? The "here is" key > tells me it's likely a terminal, but the hex key pad is throwing me off. > > Pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/zTgR2 > > Thanks, > > Kyle > I recall having one of those, many years ago - and I had/have no idea where or what it came from. But it was definitely the same keyboard, I remember the unique hex pad. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 7 16:49:25 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 14:49:25 -0800 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: References: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> <20170107200814.GW5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <2208342b-2205-d0ac-9337-e9c4796ef785@bitsavers.org> On 1/7/17 12:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Interestingly the personallity board in the R80 printset is called the RM80 > personality board. Suggesting that as I thought the RM80 is the R80 with > a Massbus interface box. > RM == "Minnow" The R80 started out life as the disk for the ill-fated little PDP-10 called "Minnow" and was reused in the VAX 11/730 From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 16:50:26 2017 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 16:50:26 -0600 Subject: Friden Auxiliary Reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I guess I'm on a roll, trying to find out what some things are in the collection. Any idea what this paper tape reader could've been connected to? http://imgur.com/a/DjRj7 Thanks, Kyle From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 17:14:53 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 23:14:53 -0000 Subject: Friden Auxiliary Reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <023d01d2693b$db44ecc0$91cec640$@gmail.com> I would guess a flexowriter. I havn't seen one with two readers, but when I worked for an Insurance Company ours had two punches (and one reader). They were used to print Policies and capture the policy information for the master file as these were mixed case documents and the line printers we had were upper case only. The input tape contained the Policy wording and had stop codes that marked the places for the variable information, such as policy holder, life assured, premium etc. As the dataentry operator typed these they were captured on one punch for input to the Mainframe, a Honeywell H200 via a paper tape to mag tape converter, and also onto a second tape that was re-read to produce a fancy folder/wallet/encvolope into which the policy was inserted for safe keeping. If I can find any of my policies I will scan them. I can envisage systems in which the variable information also came on paper tape, thus needing two readers on the Flexowriter, and there being codes on the tapes to switch between the two inputs... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kyle Owen > Sent: 07 January 2017 22:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Friden Auxiliary Reader > > I guess I'm on a roll, trying to find out what some things are in the collection. > Any idea what this paper tape reader could've been connected to? > > http://imgur.com/a/DjRj7 > > Thanks, > > Kyle From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 7 17:19:08 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 15:19:08 -0800 Subject: Friden Auxiliary Reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93e29667-21f7-5bbe-3d11-8d2e0a0d9c70@bitsavers.org> programatic flexowriter seen in 74-221_Friden_Programatic_Flexowriter_Brochure.pdf and 74-204_Friden_Computyper_Brochure.pdf On 1/7/17 2:50 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I guess I'm on a roll, trying to find out what some things are in the > collection. Any idea what this paper tape reader could've been connected > to? > > http://imgur.com/a/DjRj7 > > Thanks, > > Kyle > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 7 17:19:50 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 15:19:50 -0800 Subject: Friden Auxiliary Reader In-Reply-To: <93e29667-21f7-5bbe-3d11-8d2e0a0d9c70@bitsavers.org> References: <93e29667-21f7-5bbe-3d11-8d2e0a0d9c70@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: and Friden_SFD_Brochure.pdf On 1/7/17 3:19 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > programatic flexowriter > seen in > 74-221_Friden_Programatic_Flexowriter_Brochure.pdf > and > 74-204_Friden_Computyper_Brochure.pdf > > On 1/7/17 2:50 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: >> I guess I'm on a roll, trying to find out what some things are in the >> collection. Any idea what this paper tape reader could've been connected >> to? >> >> http://imgur.com/a/DjRj7 >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kyle >> > From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 17:20:47 2017 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 17:20:47 -0600 Subject: Friden Auxiliary Reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <533C241E-D89C-427F-9067-50816B786139@gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2017, at 4:50 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I guess I'm on a roll, trying to find out what some things are in the > collection. Any idea what this paper tape reader could've been connected > to? > > http://imgur.com/a/DjRj7 > > Thanks, > > Kyle Kyle, That reader teams up with Friden's "standard" Flexowriter, though they got used for lots of other applications. They even had a dual-read unit with a ganged clutch. The idea being you put your canned form letter on reader A and the reader B contains the names/addresses of your customers. I've got a dual-head unit here that was modified for use in color photography post-processing but the cable was cut off flush. One head was chrominance and the other luminance. -C From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Jan 7 17:04:43 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2017 18:04:43 -0500 Subject: Drum Computers In-Reply-To: <6D07E4A0-7A62-42F5-8383-6FF256857F77@comcast.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> <6D07E4A0-7A62-42F5-8383-6FF256857F77@comcast.net> Message-ID: <39fe2532-7ef3-d78d-eaea-7d4801075fef@verizon.net> On 01/07/2017 11:44 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Jan 6, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: >> >> ... >> The machine was made by Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing (aka 3M Corporation). Today, there seems to be no record that 3M ever was in the computer business. But...it was. > Not a drum computer but another example of a company not known for computers that nevertheless built one: Goodyear. A supercomputer called STARAN, a very odd architecture. Actually based on an earlier one built at Sanders Associates (a defense contractor) invented by a friend of ours, William Shooman. > > The Computer Museum, back when it was at Digital in their Marlboro, MA building, had pieces of the STARAN. > > paul > > > RIght up there with Cincinnati Millichron The CM2000, 2100, 2200, TTLBitslice (6700) 16bit, and core machine my contact with it was 1974. I'd be hard pressed to prove they existed. Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Jan 7 17:37:11 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2017 23:37:11 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please Message-ID: Evening all, I wish I had the ability to take a board layout and turn it into a logically laid out schematic but as yet I don't. Video sync on my Executel 3910 is still running me round in circles so could one of you fine folk take a look at this board layout drawn as best I can: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelSyncCircuit.jpg ...and let me know what it does please? The chip on the left is a Plessey MR9735 teletext video driver wired to run permanently in 'off hours' mode - you can see 'Sync In' is just pulled high so the chip doesn't detect any incoming sync and is supposed to generate its own, which it doesn't even though all external clocks are present. Resistor values are correct as far as measuring them with a DMM goes, the diodes aren't actually 1N4001s but I can't read the printing on them. Both transistors are BC548 NPN. The area labelled 'MON' is a 14-way ribbon cable that goes off to the TV driver board. I'm feeling pretty dumb at this point. Logic and truth tables are more my thing, current flow is something I'm learning slowly. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ats at offog.org Sat Jan 7 20:38:58 2017 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2017 02:38:58 +0000 Subject: Unknown keyboard In-Reply-To: (Kyle Owen's message of "Sat, 7 Jan 2017 16:16:51 -0600") References: Message-ID: Kyle Owen writes: > Does anyone have an idea what this keyboard went to? The "here is" key > tells me it's likely a terminal, but the hex key pad is throwing me off. > Pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/zTgR2 I'm not sure it helps very much, but here's one in its case: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52561.0 Looks like it's from the same Key Tronic family as the Sol-20 keyboard, but that hex keypad with INCR and DECR keys is really unusual... a really fancy PROM burner, ICE, or protocol analyser? -- Adam Sampson From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 7 21:14:06 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 03:14:06 +0000 Subject: Unknown keyboard In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I'm not much help but is the uP a x51 or x48 chip? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Adam Sampson Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 6:38:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Unknown keyboard Kyle Owen writes: > Does anyone have an idea what this keyboard went to? The "here is" key > tells me it's likely a terminal, but the hex key pad is throwing me off. > Pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/zTgR2 [http://i.imgur.com/2ImJmUG.jpg?fb] Unknown keyboard imgur.com Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet. I'm not sure it helps very much, but here's one in its case: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52561.0 Looks like it's from the same Key Tronic family as the Sol-20 keyboard, but that hex keypad with INCR and DECR keys is really unusual... a really fancy PROM burner, ICE, or protocol analyser? -- Adam Sampson Adam Sampson offog.org Date Files Changes; 2017-01-01: wishlist: Add "Business is Fun". 2017-01-01: wishlist: Post-Christmas update. Thanks all! 2017-01-01: wishlist: Ordered Organissimo album. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 7 23:20:30 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 21:20:30 -0800 Subject: Unknown keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09e527a3-5aa9-b698-1731-68a05d85bfa8@bitsavers.org> neither. GI keyboard encoder and translation prom pretty common in Keytronics kbs On 1/7/17 7:14 PM, dwight wrote: > > I'm not much help but is the uP a x51 or x48 chip? > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Adam Sampson > Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 6:38:58 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Unknown keyboard > > Kyle Owen writes: > >> Does anyone have an idea what this keyboard went to? The "here is" key >> tells me it's likely a terminal, but the hex key pad is throwing me off. >> Pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/zTgR2 > [http://i.imgur.com/2ImJmUG.jpg?fb] > > Unknown keyboard > imgur.com > Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet. > > > > > I'm not sure it helps very much, but here's one in its case: > https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52561.0 > > Looks like it's from the same Key Tronic family as the Sol-20 keyboard, > but that hex keypad with INCR and DECR keys is really unusual... a > really fancy PROM burner, ICE, or protocol analyser? > > -- > Adam Sampson > Adam Sampson > offog.org > Date Files Changes; 2017-01-01: wishlist: Add "Business is Fun". 2017-01-01: wishlist: Post-Christmas update. Thanks all! 2017-01-01: wishlist: Ordered Organissimo album. > > > From mark at markesystems.com Sun Jan 8 00:07:47 2017 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 22:07:47 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 31, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Allison wrote; >I envy the chance to restore a LGP-30 or for that fact play with one. >Many of the things I remember >mid sixties on are now gone or were rare then. Like small desk sized drum >computers using transistors or first generation IC (RTL and RDTL). Rick Bensene wrote: >I so regret not having rescued an old computer that I played with through >all four years of high school. >The machine was made by Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing (aka 3M >Corporation). Today, there seems to be no record that 3M ever was in the >computer business. But...it was. I never saw one of those, but the computer center I worked at in college dumped a Cincinnati Milachron small business computer system - *not* a machine tool controller. I tried to grab it, but that was not to be. Same thing - there's no record anywhere I could find that they were ever in that business. <...> > along with another old machine that was donated to the school...hardly a > computer, more like an accounting machine, made by SCM, called a 7816 > Typetronic. I actually ended up with a complete SCM 7816 system, including: - The I/O Printer, which was a hacked SCM electric typewriter, with diode-matrix encoding for the keyboard, and relay decoding for the printer; it used a row of washers to mechanically ensure that only one key could be pressed at once. It also had a paper tape reader built into the back of the carriage, so that some computation could be triggered by the carriage position, or performed while the carriage was returning. - The main 2816 control unit, with a plug-board "output panel" to route data between the various peripherals; this also had the massive power supply, which used a ferro-resonant transformer to regulate all of the voltages. - The optional (!) 7816 arithmetic processor, which did bit-serial addition, subtraction, or multiplication (no division, but this was simulated by using reciprocal multiplication); there were nine 10-digit registers (no other working memory), all implemented on a fixed-head disk, plus a buffer implemented electronically. Add time was 17ms, multiplication 700ms; this is why the ability to do calculations during the carriage return was valuable. - Two paper tape punches - these were re-branded CDC punches, and were very nice units. 40 characters per second, with a built-in automatic verification; they could also be used to punch on the side of cards, instead of tape. - Two paper tape readers. These were built by SCM, and were pretty nice too; they were optical, would read at 30 characters per second, and could stop from full speed on the next character. - The custom desks, which included a recess for the I/O Printer to sit in, and acted as chasses for the 2816 and 7816. - All of the manuals and schematics for the whole thing. Some of the logic was made using thick-film modules, but most was on the vintage single-sided boards, with obviously hand-drawn traces and jumpers on the component side. Somebody has uploaded some of the manuals and 2816 schematics to bitsavers, but not the schematics for the 7816. With the complete schematics, I was eventually able to get the thing to type and read and punch tape, but I never got the arithmetic unit working. That machine was *really* dumb... I carted the whole thing around for about 15 years, until the new wife decided that she was more important than the space it consumed. That's OK, I guess - I eventually ended up dumping her, too... ~~ Mark Moulding From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 01:31:18 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 07:31:18 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 11:37 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Evening all, > > I wish I had the ability to take a board layout and turn it into a logically > laid out schematic but as yet I don't. Video sync on my Executel 3910 is > still running me round in circles so could one of you fine folk take a look > at this board layout drawn as best I can: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelSyncCircuit.jpg > > ...and let me know what it does please? The chip on the left is a Plessey I don't believe it's correct as drawn. For one thing you have V333, an NPN transistor, with the collector grounded (and no -ve supplies on the circuit. For another, R322 is ridiculously low. And I would expect the anodes of the 3 diodes on the RGB outputs to go somewhere other than a resistor to ground. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 7 18:26:25 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 16:26:25 -0800 Subject: Drum Computers In-Reply-To: <6D07E4A0-7A62-42F5-8383-6FF256857F77@comcast.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> <6D07E4A0-7A62-42F5-8383-6FF256857F77@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7747857e-2f9b-9c4f-1761-0a762ba20e72@sydex.com> On 01/07/2017 08:44 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Not a drum computer but another example of a company not known for > computers that nevertheless built one: Goodyear. A supercomputer > called STARAN, a very odd architecture. Actually based on an earlier > one built at Sanders Associates (a defense contractor) invented by a > friend of ours, William Shooman. I'm sure that Paul remembers the CDC 6603 disk drive, made by Bryant (the big horizontal spindle one with the hydraulic "leak collectors"). Bryant Computer Products started out as the Bryant Chucking Grinder Company. Later, it was acquired by Ex-cell-o, the people who made milk cartons. I've witnessed someone slip and fall in a pool of Pydraul from a leaking Bryant 4000. They don't build 'em like that, thank heavens. --Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 18:45:34 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 20:45:34 -0400 Subject: Drum Computers In-Reply-To: <7747857e-2f9b-9c4f-1761-0a762ba20e72@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> <6D07E4A0-7A62-42F5-8383-6FF256857F77@comcast.net> <7747857e-2f9b-9c4f-1761-0a762ba20e72@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2017-01-07 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/07/2017 08:44 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Not a drum computer but another example of a company not known for >> computers that nevertheless built one: Goodyear. A supercomputer >> called STARAN, a very odd architecture. Actually based on an earlier >> one built at Sanders Associates (a defense contractor) invented by a >> friend of ours, William Shooman. > I'm sure that Paul remembers the CDC 6603 disk drive, made by Bryant > (the big horizontal spindle one with the hydraulic "leak collectors"). > Bryant Computer Products started out as the Bryant Chucking Grinder > Company. Later, it was acquired by Ex-cell-o, the people who made milk > cartons. > > I've witnessed someone slip and fall in a pool of Pydraul from a leaking > Bryant 4000. > > They don't build 'em like that, thank heavens. > > --Chuck Some of the early IBM disk drives used hydraulic actuators as well, and the 1403 used hydraulics to move the paper. I recall working on a high volume laser page printer that used an oil fuser, one of the rolls in the fuser dipped into a trough filled with silicon oil. The oil was fed by a plastic bottle with a regulator valve in the cap that was inverted in the end of the trough. Unfortunately the oil bottle was badly designed, and the cap would contact the body of the bottle before the threads bottomed out and you could pretty easily crack the neck where if joined the bottle if you where not careful. With the neck cracked all the oil would leak out and it made a huge mess inside the printer, but an even bigger problem was if it leaked out onto a raised floor it made the floor tiles extremely slick and it was very hard to clean off the tiles. Paul. From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 22:13:26 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 20:13:26 -0800 Subject: Vintage computers for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey, I saw your message to the ClassicCmp making list. I believe I have a KIM-1 to sell you but I'd have to dig it out. Also, most of the machines mentioned in this posting are still available: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?51781-Mulitple-and-divers-computers-for-sale Let me know if anything I have interests you. Thanks! Sellam From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jan 8 05:10:27 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:10:27 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 08/01/2017 07:31, "Tony Duell" wrote: > On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 11:37 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: >> Evening all, >> >> I wish I had the ability to take a board layout and turn it into a logically >> laid out schematic but as yet I don't. Video sync on my Executel 3910 is >> still running me round in circles so could one of you fine folk take a look >> at this board layout drawn as best I can: >> >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelSyncCircuit.jpg >> >> ...and let me know what it does please? The chip on the left is a Plessey > > > I don't believe it's correct as drawn. For one thing you have V333, an NPN > transistor, with the collector grounded (and no -ve supplies on the circuit. > For > another, R322 is ridiculously low. And I would expect the anodes of the > 3 diodes on the RGB outputs to go somewhere other than a resistor to > ground. Hm, ok, that's today's task then. For V333 it could be that I just have the pin numbers reversed but I'll double check. The diodes bothered me too and I'm trying to think of a better way of tracing unknown lines on the bottom of the board. My sponge-wrapped-in-tin-foil method isn't infallible. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jan 8 08:00:04 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2017 14:00:04 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 08/01/2017 07:31, "Tony Duell" wrote: > On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 11:37 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: >> Evening all, >> >> I wish I had the ability to take a board layout and turn it into a logically >> laid out schematic but as yet I don't. Video sync on my Executel 3910 is >> still running me round in circles so could one of you fine folk take a look >> at this board layout drawn as best I can: >> >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelSyncCircuit.jpg >> >> ...and let me know what it does please? The chip on the left is a Plessey > > > I don't believe it's correct as drawn. For one thing you have V333, an NPN > transistor, with the collector grounded (and no -ve supplies on the circuit. > For > another, R322 is ridiculously low. And I would expect the anodes of the > 3 diodes on the RGB outputs to go somewhere other than a resistor to > ground. You were right, I'd drawn out R335 wrongly and flipped V333. All the anodes go via R312 to the collector of V333 along with R309-R311. Base for V333 is the inverted sync output of the MR9735. R322 is 6.8k (blue-grey-black-brown). All diodes are 1N4148. http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelSyncCircuit2.jpg Thanks for looking! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 08:01:31 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:01:31 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 08/01/2017 07:31, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> I don't believe it's correct as drawn. For one thing you have V333, an NPN >> transistor, with the collector grounded (and no -ve supplies on the circuit. >> For >> another, R322 is ridiculously low. And I would expect the anodes of the >> 3 diodes on the RGB outputs to go somewhere other than a resistor to >> ground. > > Hm, ok, that's today's task then. For V333 it could be that I just have the > pin numbers reversed but I'll double check. The diodes bothered me too and No, it's more than that. The emitter returns to ground too. There is no way of getting a voltage across colletor and emitter. > I'm trying to think of a better way of tracing unknown lines on the bottom > of the board. My sponge-wrapped-in-tin-foil method isn't infallible. > I've been known to test to every connection on the board. Or to desolder all the components I know it goes to and then do resistance checks to prove it goes somewhere else. Yes it takes a long time,but... Knowing what to expect, what is possible, helps a lot too. But that only comes with practice. -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 08:06:45 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:06:45 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > You were right, I'd drawn out R335 wrongly and flipped V333. All the anodes > go via R312 to the collector of V333 along with R309-R311. Base for V333 is > the inverted sync output of the MR9735. R322 is 6.8k > (blue-grey-black-brown). All diodes are 1N4148. > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelSyncCircuit2.jpg That makes more sense. I am surprised that the anodes of the diodes don't go to a +ve power line (maybe +12V), though. It could be right as drawn, but I would check it. When you power up, what voltage and/or signal (use a 'scope) do you see on the anodes of said diodes? -tony From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Jan 8 05:02:28 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 05:02:28 -0600 Subject: Drum Computers In-Reply-To: <7747857e-2f9b-9c4f-1761-0a762ba20e72@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> <6D07E4A0-7A62-42F5-8383-6FF256857F77@comcast.net> <7747857e-2f9b-9c4f-1761-0a762ba20e72@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20170108110227.GA3060@lonesome.com> On Sat, Jan 07, 2017 at 04:26:25PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm sure that Paul remembers the CDC 6603 disk drive, made by Bryant > (the big horizontal spindle one with the hydraulic "leak collectors"). I didn't see the Bryant that Rice University had in operation on the R1 Research Computer; I was one year too late for that. They did save one of the platters for laughs. I recall it being about as wide as my outstretched arms. I was told two tales about the Bryant: - They had it up on the second floor. When the Bryant would seek, the building would "counter-seek". - One time a contractor came in to paint the building and despite instructions, painted the computer room as well. Of course the paint got in to the Bryant. The folks who worked on it said, well, what have we got to lose. They pulled the platters, used some kind of solvent to remove the mess, put them back in, and the thing just continued to work. "Tolerances", who needs 'em ... mcl From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 8 09:44:52 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 07:44:52 -0800 Subject: Drum Computers In-Reply-To: <20170108110227.GA3060@lonesome.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5E5@mail.bensene.com> <6D07E4A0-7A62-42F5-8383-6FF256857F77@comcast.net> <7747857e-2f9b-9c4f-1761-0a762ba20e72@sydex.com> <20170108110227.GA3060@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <7edc60e4-7cea-99df-a77f-57fd97a65aef@sydex.com> On 01/08/2017 03:02 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > - One time a contractor came in to paint the building and despite > instructions, painted the computer room as well. Of course the paint > got in to the Bryant. The folks who worked on it said, well, what > have we got to lose. They pulled the platters, used some kind of > solvent to remove the mess, put them back in, and the thing just > continued to work. "Tolerances", who needs 'em ... I had a couple of the salvaged Bryant platters as mementos back in the day. I thought about making a coffee table out of one, but the hole in the middle was a stopper for me. Perhaps I should have stuck a flowerpot in it or something... As I recall the heads on the Bryant weighed in at about 8 lbs apiece. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 8 10:03:57 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:03:57 -0800 Subject: Sunday brain tickler Message-ID: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> I'm looking at a sample of what I see as a directory of sorts and am attempting to decode the file names from it. They're not anything as elegant as Rad50, but the encoding has escaped my weary brain. The system in question is a Lanier 103 word processor. Here are some samples. Can anyone come up with the encoding scheme? It can't be very complex as this was a comparatively brain-dead system: (All values in hex) c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 5c 25 15 1b 4c 40 00 00 cd 6d 15 7a a6 10 cb 82 a1 7a c1 c0 00 00 00 00 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 d0 7f 9f 12 25 fd 53 28 The recurrence of these strings in what appears to be a block directory in the same position tell me that they must be file names. The file data itself is in ASCII, more or less (special formatting codes). The distribution of values to me suggests some sort of bit-packing algorithm is involved. Thanks for any suggestions. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jan 8 10:18:55 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 11:18:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201701081618.LAA07713@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelSyncCircuit.jpg >> I don't believe it's correct as drawn. For one thing you have V333, >> an NPN transistor, with the collector grounded (and no -ve supplies >> on the circuit. Bipolar transistors are to some extent symmetric under interchange of collector and emitter. Simplified pictures showing a bar of semiconductor with the ends being emitter and collector and a thin base layer in the middle are, well, simplified, but there is _some_ truth lurking in them. However, the only reason I could see that being done deliberately is if the circuit is analog and the transistor's behaviour is relevantly different from the normal way around. This circuit doesn't look like that to me. Redrawing it a bit less confusingly with V333 E/C swapped makes it look as though V333 and V326 are being used in their switching regions, not their linear regions. The lack of negative supplies is hardly conclusivein itself; negative voltages could be developed in any of many ways. However, V325, R322, and V326 would make it difficult for the R335/V325/V333 junction point to get too far below 5V (admittedly this is much less true if R322's value is actually significantly higher). I also question the way R311/R310/R309 are all different. I would expect the red, green, and blue circuits to be electrically more or less identical, and different pulldown values does not fit with that. >> For another, R322 is ridiculously low. Indeed. I don't know how much you know about electronics at the relevant level, so it's possible what I'm about to say is unnecessary or has already been considered. Did these resistor values come from reading bands, or measuring in-circuit, or what? Note that R322 is in parallel with the C-B diode of V326; a simple ohmmeter put across it may end up measuring the diode drop instead. (To test this theory, switch ranges. A diode drop will usually give you approximately the same digits in each range - eg, 6.7 ohms on the 0-10 range, 67 ohms on the 0-100 one, 670 ohms for the 0-1K range, etc. Also, swapping the probe leads will give a different reading if that's what's behind this.) >> And I would expect the anodes of the 3 diodes on the RGB outputs to >> go somewhere other than a resistor to ground. At least with R312 as high as 10K. If it were much lower, the diodes could be clipping diodes; a diode drop is not too far from about the right swing for a video signal. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 10:36:15 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 16:36:15 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: <201701081618.LAA07713@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201701081618.LAA07713@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Mouse wrote: > I also question the way R311/R310/R309 are all different. I would > expect the red, green, and blue circuits to be electrically more or > less identical, and different pulldown values does not fit with that. Well, I wonder if it's producing a weighted sum of R,G,B to make a monochrome luminance signal. Not at all uncommon. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jan 8 11:05:39 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:05:39 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 08/01/2017 14:06, "Tony Duell" wrote: > On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: > >> You were right, I'd drawn out R335 wrongly and flipped V333. All the anodes >> go via R312 to the collector of V333 along with R309-R311. Base for V333 is >> the inverted sync output of the MR9735. R322 is 6.8k >> (blue-grey-black-brown). All diodes are 1N4148. >> >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelSyncCircuit2.jpg > > That makes more sense. I am surprised that the anodes of the diodes don't go > to a +ve power line (maybe +12V), though. It could be right as drawn, > but I would check it. I photographed both sides of the board and merged the pictures together to make a front/back composite. The trace for the cathodes of the 3 diodes links together on the back of the board and doesn't go anywhere else. The front trace from V302 cathode goes straight to R312. The anodes DO link with the monitor driver board through the connection marked MON though. > When you power up, what voltage and/or signal (use a 'scope) do you see on the > anodes of said diodes? Looks to be 4V on all 3 lines for RGB: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelRGBsignal.jpg One of the reasons I'm asking these questions is I'm trying to see if there's another source of composite sync given that the MR9735 itself doesn't do it, even though it should. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jan 8 11:14:48 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:14:48 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: <201701081618.LAA07713@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 08/01/2017 16:18, "Mouse" wrote: >>>> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelSyncCircuit.jpg >>> I don't believe it's correct as drawn. For one thing you have V333, >>> an NPN transistor, with the collector grounded (and no -ve supplies >>> on the circuit. > > Bipolar transistors are to some extent symmetric under interchange of > collector and emitter. Simplified pictures showing a bar of > semiconductor with the ends being emitter and collector and a thin base > layer in the middle are, well, simplified, but there is _some_ truth > lurking in them. > > However, the only reason I could see that being done deliberately is if > the circuit is analog and the transistor's behaviour is relevantly > different from the normal way around. This circuit doesn't look like > that to me. Redrawing it a bit less confusingly with V333 E/C swapped > makes it look as though V333 and V326 are being used in their switching > regions, not their linear regions. Yes, I got the emitter and collector swapped. The software I'm using (Fritzing) is excellent given it costs nothing, but occasionally you can make a change then alter something else in the properties of the item and the change is lost. > The lack of negative supplies is hardly conclusivein itself; negative > voltages could be developed in any of many ways. However, V325, R322, > and V326 would make it difficult for the R335/V325/V333 junction point > to get too far below 5V (admittedly this is much less true if R322's > value is actually significantly higher). > > I also question the way R311/R310/R309 are all different. I would > expect the red, green, and blue circuits to be electrically more or > less identical, and different pulldown values does not fit with that. There's been a couple of resistor failures with this board so I'm at the stage of starting with a DMM, swapping probes to hopefully get a consistent reading then reading the bands and using the calculator here for ones I don't instantly recognise: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tools/resistor-color-code-calculator/ If the two don't match I take it out of circuit. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 11:21:39 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 17:21:39 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I photographed both sides of the board and merged the pictures together to > make a front/back composite. The trace for the cathodes of the 3 diodes > links together on the back of the board and doesn't go anywhere else. The > front trace from V302 cathode goes straight to R312. The anodes DO link with > the monitor driver board through the connection marked MON though. OK, probably some kind of luminance signal. Was there ever a monochrome version of this unit? > One of the reasons I'm asking these questions is I'm trying to see if > there's another source of composite sync given that the MR9735 itself > doesn't do it, even though it should. I doubt it.... Why would there be? Is the MR9735 doing anything? Is it accessing memory, for example? I still wonder if it has to be initialised (say to vewdata rather than teletext mode) and if this is not occuring. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jan 8 12:11:46 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2017 18:11:46 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 08/01/2017 17:21, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> I photographed both sides of the board and merged the pictures together to >> make a front/back composite. The trace for the cathodes of the 3 diodes >> links together on the back of the board and doesn't go anywhere else. The >> front trace from V302 cathode goes straight to R312. The anodes DO link with >> the monitor driver board through the connection marked MON though. > > OK, probably some kind of luminance signal. Was there ever a monochrome > version of this unit? The whole unit is monochrome, it only has a little 5" B&W TV as its output device - http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutel01.jpg However, two of us bought units at the same time and the other one has a little bridgeboard containing a 74LS244 that sends the RGB signals to a DIN socket on the back of the case for an external monitor. I also can't see a luminance line on the connection to the TV board on mine, just red-green-blue with sync and inverse sync which go to the horizontal driver chip and vertical driver chip respectively. You may remember I was asking questions about these chips a couple of months ago because that TV board suffered some component rot and I thought the wavy picture was because of that. >> One of the reasons I'm asking these questions is I'm trying to see if >> there's another source of composite sync given that the MR9735 itself >> doesn't do it, even though it should. > > I doubt it.... Why would there be? Clutching at straws :) > Is the MR9735 doing anything? Is it accessing memory, for example? > I still wonder if it has to be initialised (say to vewdata rather than > teletext mode) and if this is not occuring. Its address and data buses are active as is the pair of 2114s that are acting as a page store. There's a 74LS240 buffering the data bus and that's active. You could be right though, I'm not convinced the unit is actually running any code yet despite the ROMCS lines working and I can see activity in all 16 RAM chips. Data bus and address bus at CPU and ROM chips looks happy from a 'doing something' point of view. All the control lines on the CPU are pulsing with the exception of IO/M but if all the IO the chip is doing is to memory then that's to be expected. I've disassembled the ROM code so I'll have a look through that for an init routine, also the datasheet should tell me what its expecting at powerup. Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 12:20:16 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 18:20:16 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 08/01/2017 17:21, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >>> I photographed both sides of the board and merged the pictures together to >>> make a front/back composite. The trace for the cathodes of the 3 diodes >>> links together on the back of the board and doesn't go anywhere else. The >>> front trace from V302 cathode goes straight to R312. The anodes DO link with >>> the monitor driver board through the connection marked MON though. >> >> OK, probably some kind of luminance signal. Was there ever a monochrome >> version of this unit? > > The whole unit is monochrome, it only has a little 5" B&W TV as its output > device - OK, was there ever a colour version :-) > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutel01.jpg > > However, two of us bought units at the same time and the other one has a > little bridgeboard containing a 74LS244 that sends the RGB signals to a DIN > socket on the back of the case for an external monitor. I also can't see a And in a sense there was... > luminance line on the connection to the TV board on mine, just > red-green-blue with sync and inverse sync which go to the horizontal driver Do you mean that the common cathode connection of those diodes goes to the monitor connector but nowhere then on the monitor PCB? >> Is the MR9735 doing anything? Is it accessing memory, for example? >> I still wonder if it has to be initialised (say to vewdata rather than >> teletext mode) and if this is not occuring. > > Its address and data buses are active as is the pair of 2114s that are > acting as a page store. There's a 74LS240 buffering the data bus and that's > active. OK.. My dislike of 2114s is legendary, but probably not the problem here.... > > You could be right though, I'm not convinced the unit is actually running > any code yet despite the ROMCS lines working and I can see activity in all > 16 RAM chips. Data bus and address bus at CPU and ROM chips looks happy from What are the RAMs? If they're more 2114s I wonder if they have problems that are confusing the CPU (perhaps corrupting the stack?) > a 'doing something' point of view. All the control lines on the CPU are > pulsing with the exception of IO/M but if all the IO the chip is doing is to > memory then that's to be expected. What's the CPU? 8085? I've had those fail in odd ways. > > I've disassembled the ROM code so I'll have a look through that for an init > routine, also the datasheet should tell me what its expecting at powerup. Personally, I'd stick a logic analyser on it and start tracing the code. See if it is executing anything correctly. -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 12:31:00 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 18:31:00 +0000 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: <00fc01d269db$da64a930$8f2dfb90$@com> References: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> <00fc01d269db$da64a930$8f2dfb90$@com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 6:20 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: >>Tony Duell wrote: >>Well, actually I think you own an R80 but don't know it :-) >>As I understand it, the R80 had the sort-of SMD interface. 2 cables >>(60 and 26 wires). It's not SMD, there are significant differences, but anyway. > > Can't speak for it being an SMD interface, but the rest of this is correct. And as tony It's somewhat SMD-like, but it's not SMD. Some of the signals have the same names (like the control signal bus from controller to drive being called 'Tag') but you can't plug an SMD drive into the 11/730 IDC. One oddiity is that the SMD drive's select lines are inputs to the drive (as you'd expect), on the R80 the lines are outputs from the drive giving the coding of the ready lamp cap (which sets the unit number like an RL02). I've not looked into making an interface between the 11/730 IDC and an SMD drive, I might have to if the R80 proves unrepairable. > said, the R80 was used only in the VAX-11/730 with the IDC. The IDC, with the help of > the CPU microcode, turns the R80 into an MSCP drive and also controls up to three > RL02 drives at the same time. FWIW, you can put an R80 HDA in an RA80 drive and > vice-versa without needing to reformat. Don't know if that's true for the RM80 - I've never > actually used one of those. I've always felt that the RA80 is the 'oddest' member of the family. As a result I suspect an RM80 HDA will swap with the others and vice versa, but I've not tried it. The RM80 manuals aren't on Bitsavers. > > I have an 11/730 in the garage with the IDC and R80 drive. I've got lots of spares for the > R80 drive itself, but only one HDA and that one is unusable due to too many errors. > Fortunately I also have a UDA-50 and two more RA8x drives in the machine so it's still > usable. It boots just fine from the UDA-50, but I'd love to restore the original drive. The RA81 and RA82 HDAs seem quite different. They have more heads for one thing, but I get the feeling that the servo system is quite different. One manual suggests not only do they have the dedicated servo surface, but also embedded servo information on the data surfaces. AFAIK the R80, etc only has the dedcated servo surface. The servo PCB seems to be the same in the R80 and RM80. That for the RA81 is a lot more complex with a microprocessor on it. I had wondered if you could kludge an RA81 or RA82 HDA into an R80, I think it would be very hard. > > If anybody has an R?80 HDA that they'd be willing to part with, let me know! Not only am I the wrong side of the Pond, but the HDA is one part I am keeping from the RA80, no matter what I do with the rest of it. I don't know if it's good, of course, but if it is it will be kept as a spare for the R80. The HDA is the only major unit I can't repair (yet!). -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 13:02:26 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:02:26 +0000 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: <00fd01d269df$8c11b580$a4352080$@com> References: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> <00fc01d269db$da64a930$8f2dfb90$@com> <00fd01d269df$8c11b580$a4352080$@com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 6:46 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: >>Tony Duell wrote: >>R80 the lines are outputs from the drive giving the coding of the ready lamp cap > > I was always thought that the R80 had to be unit #0 to function, but I admit that I've never tried > anything else. I wonder if that's not true?? The RL02 drive(s) on the IDC can be any of units > 1, 2 or 3. I don't know about the 11/730's IDC. I was just looking at the R80 schematics, the unit number lines are output on the 60 wire cable. Maybe the RM80's massbus box uses them or something? A quick look at the printset and technical manual suggests that the 11/730 IDC compares the drive select number from the appropriate output register with the unit number from the R80 (set by the ready lamp cap). If they match it uses the R80 logic, if not then it uses the RL02 logic. I have no idea if the nomal software will work if the R80 s anything but unit 0, but it looks like the hardware was designed to allow for it. > >>The HDA is the only major unit I can't repair (yet!). > > Yeah, same here. In addition to the 11/730 with one (dead) R80, one RA81 and one RA82, > I have a MicroVAX-III with an RA82 drive. Keeping them all working has been a real challenge. The only (other) SDI drive I have is an RA60, and I have no packs for it. I doubt I will ever use it. > Fixing the electronics and mechanical parts isn't too bad, and I have plenty of spares, but the Apart from the ROMs (and those 8355s/8755s are not suported by most programmers/readers now available), there are no custom parts on the PCBs that I've spotted. There are custom chips on the PCB on the front of the HDA and unlike one Micropolis drive I work on, you can't replace them without dismantling the HDA (in a clean room). There are also plug and socket connectors on that PCB -- inside the HDA. I hope those don't suffer from bad contacts! > HDAs don?t seem to be very reliable. I get the impression that they were designed with a finite > number of spin up/spin down cycles in mind, and once you exceed that limit they die. Fortunately Quite likely. Which means we are less kind to them than we should be in that we don't keep them running (or at least I won't) > I've been able to find spares for the RA81 and RA82 HDAs, but R?80s seem to be pretty rare. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jan 8 13:05:41 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2017 19:05:41 +0000 Subject: More circuit help required please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 08/01/2017 18:20, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> However, two of us bought units at the same time and the other one has a >> little bridgeboard containing a 74LS244 that sends the RGB signals to a DIN >> socket on the back of the case for an external monitor. I also can't see a > > And in a sense there was... Yep. I'm pleased we found that mod in the other unit because I made my own bridgeboard and hooked the display up to a Microvitec CUB, I got exactly the same picture (in colour) on that as I did in mono on the 5" TV so I knew the analogue board and TV were OK. >> luminance line on the connection to the TV board on mine, just >> red-green-blue with sync and inverse sync which go to the horizontal driver > > Do you mean that the common cathode connection of those diodes goes to > the monitor connector but nowhere then on the monitor PCB? No, in trying to trace some of the lines along the bottom of the board I took the monitor cable off and traced the pins. They are: 1 - 5V 2 - NC 3 - looped to 5 4 - Sync out 5 - looped to 3 6 - emitter of V326 via R336 7 - GREEN 8 - RED 9 - Inverse sync (which also goes via R332 to the base of V333) 10 - BLUE 11 - GND 12 - GND 13 - 12V 14 - 12V >>> Is the MR9735 doing anything? Is it accessing memory, for example? >>> I still wonder if it has to be initialised (say to vewdata rather than >>> teletext mode) and if this is not occuring. >> >> Its address and data buses are active as is the pair of 2114s that are >> acting as a page store. There's a 74LS240 buffering the data bus and that's >> active. > > OK.. My dislike of 2114s is legendary, but probably not the problem here.... They're OK too, surprisingly. I took them off the board and put them in a PET8032 as video RAM. >> You could be right though, I'm not convinced the unit is actually running >> any code yet despite the ROMCS lines working and I can see activity in all >> 16 RAM chips. Data bus and address bus at CPU and ROM chips looks happy from > > What are the RAMs? If they're more 2114s I wonder if they have problems > that are confusing the CPU (perhaps corrupting the stack?) 4116-2 wired as 2 banks of 8. >> a 'doing something' point of view. All the control lines on the CPU are >> pulsing with the exception of IO/M but if all the IO the chip is doing is to >> memory then that's to be expected. > > What's the CPU? 8085? I've had those fail in odd ways. Yeah, 8085A. Thanks to list members I have some spares to try. >> I've disassembled the ROM code so I'll have a look through that for an init >> routine, also the datasheet should tell me what its expecting at powerup. > > Personally, I'd stick a logic analyser on it and start tracing the code. See > if it is executing anything correctly. I've only got a cheap-ish Saleae compatible 16 channel analyser. Watching code is a bit above my current level of self-paced learning :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bob at jfcl.com Sun Jan 8 12:20:12 2017 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 10:20:12 -0800 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: References: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <00fc01d269db$da64a930$8f2dfb90$@com> >Tony Duell wrote: >Well, actually I think you own an R80 but don't know it :-) >As I understand it, the R80 had the sort-of SMD interface. 2 cables >(60 and 26 wires). It's not SMD, there are significant differences, but anyway. Can't speak for it being an SMD interface, but the rest of this is correct. And as tony said, the R80 was used only in the VAX-11/730 with the IDC. The IDC, with the help of the CPU microcode, turns the R80 into an MSCP drive and also controls up to three RL02 drives at the same time. FWIW, you can put an R80 HDA in an RA80 drive and vice-versa without needing to reformat. Don't know if that's true for the RM80 - I've never actually used one of those. I have an 11/730 in the garage with the IDC and R80 drive. I've got lots of spares for the R80 drive itself, but only one HDA and that one is unusable due to too many errors. Fortunately I also have a UDA-50 and two more RA8x drives in the machine so it's still usable. It boots just fine from the UDA-50, but I'd love to restore the original drive. If anybody has an R?80 HDA that they'd be willing to part with, let me know! Bob From bob at jfcl.com Sun Jan 8 12:46:39 2017 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 10:46:39 -0800 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: References: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> <00fc01d269db$da64a930$8f2dfb90$@com> Message-ID: <00fd01d269df$8c11b580$a4352080$@com> >Tony Duell wrote: >R80 the lines are outputs from the drive giving the coding of the ready lamp cap I was always thought that the R80 had to be unit #0 to function, but I admit that I've never tried anything else. I wonder if that's not true?? The RL02 drive(s) on the IDC can be any of units 1, 2 or 3. >The HDA is the only major unit I can't repair (yet!). Yeah, same here. In addition to the 11/730 with one (dead) R80, one RA81 and one RA82, I have a MicroVAX-III with an RA82 drive. Keeping them all working has been a real challenge. Fixing the electronics and mechanical parts isn't too bad, and I have plenty of spares, but the HDAs don?t seem to be very reliable. I get the impression that they were designed with a finite number of spin up/spin down cycles in mind, and once you exceed that limit they die. Fortunately I've been able to find spares for the RA81 and RA82 HDAs, but R?80s seem to be pretty rare. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 8 14:16:25 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 12:16:25 -0800 Subject: Vintage computers for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/07/2017 08:13 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Hey, I saw your message to the ClassicCmp making list. I believe I > have a KIM-1 to sell you but I'd have to dig it out. Also, most of > the machines mentioned in this posting are still available: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?51781-Mulitple-and-divers-computers-for-sale > > Let me know if anything I have interests you. Thanks! Hi Sellam--good to see that you're still around. For what it's worth, the links to the individual systems on your page cited above are all 404s. FYI, Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 18:24:57 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 18:24:57 -0600 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> On 01/08/2017 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm looking at a sample of what I see as a directory of sorts and am > attempting to decode the file names from it. They're not anything as > elegant as Rad50, but the encoding has escaped my weary brain. Hmm, do you have any clues to go on? Knowledge of what some of the names might logically be, whether filename extensions were a concept or not, whether uppercase/lowercase/punctuation in names was supported etc.? What would be really handy I suppose would be a disk where the user had written some of the document names on the label :-) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 8 18:36:22 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 16:36:22 -0800 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> Message-ID: <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> On 01/08/2017 04:24 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 01/08/2017 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'm looking at a sample of what I see as a directory of sorts and >> am attempting to decode the file names from it. They're not >> anything as elegant as Rad50, but the encoding has escaped my weary >> brain. > > Hmm, do you have any clues to go on? Knowledge of what some of the > names might logically be, whether filename extensions were a concept > or not, whether uppercase/lowercase/punctuation in names was > supported etc.? > > What would be really handy I suppose would be a disk where the user > had written some of the document names on the label :-) About all I can offer is that the names may (not certain) include the string "LTER". Typical work for me, I'm afraid. Keeps me young. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 18:42:04 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:42:04 -0500 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> Message-ID: Inverse 8085? Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Jan 8, 2017 7:38 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 01/08/2017 04:24 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > On 01/08/2017 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I'm looking at a sample of what I see as a directory of sorts and > >> am attempting to decode the file names from it. They're not > >> anything as elegant as Rad50, but the encoding has escaped my weary > >> brain. > > > > Hmm, do you have any clues to go on? Knowledge of what some of the > > names might logically be, whether filename extensions were a concept > > or not, whether uppercase/lowercase/punctuation in names was > > supported etc.? > > > > What would be really handy I suppose would be a disk where the user > > had written some of the document names on the label :-) > > > About all I can offer is that the names may (not certain) include the > string "LTER". > > Typical work for me, I'm afraid. Keeps me young. > > --Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 8 20:09:17 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 18:09:17 -0800 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> On 01/08/2017 04:42 PM, william degnan wrote: > Inverse 8085? I don't think so. If it helps, here's the first few lines of the "directory": 000: 00 a1 7a c1 c0 00 00 0007: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 80 1a 02 38 00 0013: a1 7a c1 c0 00 00 00 00 1b ff 00 00 001f: 5c 25 15 1b 4c 40 00 00 ff ff 37 05 002b: 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 ff 8f 31 01 0037: c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 85 25 05 0043: 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 ff 02 0f 02 004f: c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff b6 09 04 005b: 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 ff 03 02 03 0067: c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 01 12 01 0073: d0 7f 9f 12 1f bd 53 28 ff ff 7f 02 007f: c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 01 2b 00 008b: c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 83 28 04 0097: c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 01 38 00 00a3: 94 2f 3e 80 00 00 00 00 ff 01 1d 00 00af: 94 2f 4b 00 00 00 00 00 ff 03 35 05 00bb: 94 2f 4b 00 00 00 00 00 ff ff 3e 06 ... There are no other tables on disk. The disk itself is hard-sectored, with a sector length of 150 bytes and 16 sectors per track. They're interleaved 3:1 and grouped into blocks of 1200 bytes. The directory would correspond to block 0 and there are 72 entries in it, less the header. I can get the raw text, but how it's linked together and what file names might is still a mystery. --Chuck From thebri at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 20:17:21 2017 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 21:17:21 -0500 Subject: Unknown keyboard In-Reply-To: <09e527a3-5aa9-b698-1731-68a05d85bfa8@bitsavers.org> References: <09e527a3-5aa9-b698-1731-68a05d85bfa8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I've got one in the metal case. On the back is a property tag: Teledyne Ryan Aeronautical E.T. "028400a" [<- the 'a' in pen] Gov't I.D. "MDA9729530013" Prop. of "USAF" R-5051-2-REV.5-93 Where the stuff in quotes is from a typewriter, the rest is form boilerplate. There are also some inventory control stickers from 1999 and 2001. I made a new EPROM that made it output a unique code for each key, but I'd have to dig up the notes to say anything useful. I never figured out what the daughter board was for and just removed it. b From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Jan 8 21:07:53 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:07:53 -0800 Subject: Unknown keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <09e527a3-5aa9-b698-1731-68a05d85bfa8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7687B8C0-C4D0-4E47-8C9B-CC60B94C9F7E@shaw.ca> Kyle Owen writes: > Does anyone have an idea what this keyboard went to? The "here is" key > tells me it's likely a terminal, but the hex key pad is throwing me off. > Pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/zTgR2 On 2017-Jan-08, at 6:17 PM, Brian Walenz wrote: > I've got one in the metal case. On the back is a property tag: > > Teledyne Ryan Aeronautical > E.T. "028400a" [<- the 'a' in pen] > Gov't I.D. "MDA9729530013" > Prop. of "USAF" > R-5051-2-REV.5-93 > > Where the stuff in quotes is from a typewriter, the rest is form > boilerplate. There are also some inventory control stickers from 1999 and > 2001. > > I made a new EPROM that made it output a unique code for each key, but I'd > have to dig up the notes to say anything useful. I never figured out what > the daughter board was for and just removed it. The daughterboard on the one in question has a 6402 on it, so can be expected to be a parallel to serial converter. The daughterboard also has what appears to be "Ditronics" labeled on it. A search turns up a currently existing Ditronics doing financial-world tech services, no idea whether it could trace back to the 80s keyboard. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jan 8 21:55:16 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:55:16 -0800 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2c984724-f370-ae76-b0e3-c49777f2e98f@jwsss.com> I don't know the names, but the use of extents might be something going on. I highlighted the c4a3 extent. The last two columns maybe cylinder and sector number. There may be a free count going on with the next to the last two bytes 0xff85 for instance in the first stick. Since line 0x000 is odd, i wonder if it is volume related or other with the application of the disk. I'd guess that line 0x0007 is also possibly volume related. The only deviating entry at 073 has a 7f in what I'm guessing is the cylinder column, so maybe an "erased" entry? And for whatever reason, there are 6 bytes "live" in the beginning, the two bytes of 0x0000 in all the entries as well. As to the missing file names, I wonder if that data is in the text of the disk. That was one way that file systems had to pay with variable length packed data since tables like this was necessary with fixed length. I am guessing you don't want to share the file names, but I'd take the numbers in the cylinder and sector columns and see if you can spot something like filenames and the like. I had a file system on a Microdata 1621 based mini that i wrote, and we put the directory entry in both the main VTOC and in the heading of the first sector of the file. Thank god for that, as one time we had a malfunction and had to do a VTOC rebuild from scanning the entire disk, but that's another story. Thanks Jim On 1/8/2017 6:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/08/2017 04:42 PM, william degnan wrote: >> Inverse 8085? > I don't think so. If it helps, here's the first few lines of the > "directory": > > 000: 00 a1 7a c1 c0 00 00 > 0007: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 80 1a 02 38 00 > 0013: a1 7a c1 c0 00 00 00 00 1b ff 00 00 > 001f: 5c 25 15 1b 4c 40 00 00 ff ff 37 05 > 002b: 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 ff 8f 31 01 > 0037:*c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 85 25 05* > 0043: 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 ff 02 0f 02 > 004f:*c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff b6 09 04* > 005b: 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 ff 03 02 03 > 0067:*c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 01 12 01* > 0073: d0 7f 9f 12 1f bd 53 28 ff ff 7f 02 > 007f:*c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 01 2b 00* > 008b:*c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 83 28 04* > 0097:*c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 01 38 00* > 00a3: 94 2f 3e 80 00 00 00 00 ff 01 1d 00 > 00af: 94 2f 4b 00 00 00 00 00 ff 03 35 05 > 00bb: 94 2f 4b 00 00 00 00 00 ff ff 3e 06 > ... > > There are no other tables on disk. The disk itself is hard-sectored, > with a sector length of 150 bytes and 16 sectors per track. They're > interleaved 3:1 and grouped into blocks of 1200 bytes. The directory > would correspond to block 0 and there are 72 entries in it, less the header. > > I can get the raw text, but how it's linked together and what file names > might is still a mystery. > > --Chuck > > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Jan 8 22:05:32 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 23:05:32 -0500 Subject: Don't put certain tool handles in with artifacts...acetic acid and butyric acid Message-ID: <623f66.417f3b4c.45a4660c@aol.com> Don't put certain tool handles in with artifacts... acetic acid and butyric acid EATS! I found this interesting wondering why some tool handles smelled odd. - Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC "Tool handles made of Cellulose Acetate Butyrate. A thermoplastic, it offers excellent UV and solvent resistance that cellulose acetate doesn't offer. And it feels in the hand like a natural substance, something that is almost intangible, like a tool that is made by craftsmen, a characteristic that a polyethylene or polypropylene handle does not have. CAB also offers no splinters like the older wood handles. It also can be very clear. And when that plastic begins to degrade, it releases free acetic acid and butyric acid." Read much much more here-> http://dwarmstr.blogspot.com/2013/02/why-toolboxes-and-tool-handles-stink.ht ml From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 8 22:11:36 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 20:11:36 -0800 Subject: Don't put certain tool handles in with artifacts...acetic acid and butyric acid In-Reply-To: <623f66.417f3b4c.45a4660c@aol.com> References: <623f66.417f3b4c.45a4660c@aol.com> Message-ID: <12c28beb-79fd-7831-5289-b61244b4984f@bitsavers.org> > I found this interesting wondering why some tool handles smelled odd. Xcelite is notorious for this From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 8 22:16:43 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 20:16:43 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: <04cf2f28-0fa2-5d15-274e-d82683b0e5d0@bitsavers.org> References: <04cf2f28-0fa2-5d15-274e-d82683b0e5d0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1bf6c181-bd17-49b9-65e1-ebad7e8ee893@bitsavers.org> I sent this out to some friends at the end of December -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Stinky screwdrivers Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 08:51:02 -0800 From: Al Kossow To: Eric Schlaepfer , Kenneth Sumrall CC: Hedley Rainnie , Alvaro http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-153147.html I've been buying a lot of Xcelite tools lately, and was wondering why some of the handles stunk. Sadly, it looks like the good USA made hand tools will all have their plastic handles crumble eventually though I have two Craftsmen nut drivers I bought in 1975 that are still perfect. Xcelite isn't made in the US anymore. Bought a #0 Super-tru Tip (no longer says USA) and it is absolute crap. -- as an addendum, I just bought a new "Made in USA" Xcelite pliers, and the build quality was an embarrassment. now I understand all the interest in used hand tools on eBay From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Jan 8 22:16:16 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 23:16:16 -0500 Subject: Don't put certain tool handles in with artifacts...acetic acid and butyri... Message-ID: <627328.2acec8b1.45a46890@aol.com> Yep - - Al I need to separate my Burroughs Xcelite tools somehow form some of the other things. Acetic acid will eat stuff... the Enigma had a green acitate filter in the lid... with the case closed it ate all the metal keytops rings up. It was ghastly! Ed# In a message dated 1/8/2017 9:10:45 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, aek at bitsavers.org writes: > I found this interesting wondering why some tool handles smelled odd. Xcelite is notorious for this From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 8 22:16:24 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 20:16:24 -0800 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: <2c984724-f370-ae76-b0e3-c49777f2e98f@jwsss.com> References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> <2c984724-f370-ae76-b0e3-c49777f2e98f@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Jim, that occurred to me right off the bat, but the disk has only 35 cylinders and is single-sided. No file names in the body text. The text itself isn't proprietary, but merely an early cut of an already-published public report, so I have no problem sharing any part of the disk image. --Chuck On 01/08/2017 07:55 PM, jim stephens wrote: > I don't know the names, but the use of extents might be something going on. > > I highlighted the c4a3 extent. The last two columns maybe cylinder and > sector number. > > There may be a free count going on with the next to the last two bytes > 0xff85 for instance in the first stick. > > Since line 0x000 is odd, i wonder if it is volume related or other with > the application of the disk. I'd guess that line 0x0007 > is also possibly volume related. > > The only deviating entry at 073 has a 7f in what I'm guessing is the > cylinder column, so maybe an "erased" entry? > > And for whatever reason, there are 6 bytes "live" in the beginning, the > two bytes of 0x0000 in all the entries as well. > > As to the missing file names, I wonder if that data is in the text of > the disk. That was one way that file > systems had to pay with variable length packed data since tables like > this was necessary with fixed length. > > I am guessing you don't want to share the file names, but I'd take the > numbers in the cylinder and sector columns > and see if you can spot something like filenames and the like. > > I had a file system on a Microdata 1621 based mini that i wrote, and we > put the directory entry in both the main > VTOC and in the heading of the first sector of the file. Thank god for > that, as one time we had a malfunction and > had to do a VTOC rebuild from scanning the entire disk, but that's > another story. > > Thanks > Jim > > On 1/8/2017 6:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 01/08/2017 04:42 PM, william degnan wrote: >>> Inverse 8085? >> I don't think so. If it helps, here's the first few lines of the >> "directory": >> >> 000: 00 a1 7a c1 c0 00 00 >> 0007: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 80 1a 02 38 00 >> 0013: a1 7a c1 c0 00 00 00 00 1b ff 00 00 >> 001f: 5c 25 15 1b 4c 40 00 00 ff ff 37 05 >> 002b: 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 ff 8f 31 01 >> 0037:*c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 85 25 05* >> 0043: 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 ff 02 0f 02 >> 004f:*c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff b6 09 04* >> 005b: 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 ff 03 02 03 >> 0067:*c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 01 12 01* >> 0073: d0 7f 9f 12 1f bd 53 28 ff ff 7f 02 >> 007f:*c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 01 2b 00* >> 008b:*c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 83 28 04* >> 0097:*c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 01 38 00* >> 00a3: 94 2f 3e 80 00 00 00 00 ff 01 1d 00 >> 00af: 94 2f 4b 00 00 00 00 00 ff 03 35 05 >> 00bb: 94 2f 4b 00 00 00 00 00 ff ff 3e 06 >> ... >> >> There are no other tables on disk. The disk itself is hard-sectored, >> with a sector length of 150 bytes and 16 sectors per track. They're >> interleaved 3:1 and grouped into blocks of 1200 bytes. The directory >> would correspond to block 0 and there are 72 entries in it, less the >> header. >> >> I can get the raw text, but how it's linked together and what file names >> might is still a mystery. >> >> --Chuck >> >> >> > > -- --Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------- "The first thing we do, let's kill all the spammers." From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jan 8 22:29:48 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 20:29:48 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: <1bf6c181-bd17-49b9-65e1-ebad7e8ee893@bitsavers.org> References: <04cf2f28-0fa2-5d15-274e-d82683b0e5d0@bitsavers.org> <1bf6c181-bd17-49b9-65e1-ebad7e8ee893@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9a735821-1198-d357-e37f-50b453f69773@jwsss.com> On 1/8/2017 8:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Sadly, it looks like the good USA made hand tools will all have their plastic handles crumble eventually > though I have two Craftsmen nut drivers I bought in 1975 that are still perfect. How many perished in liquid N2 back in the day. So sad. thanks jim From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Jan 8 23:10:12 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 21:10:12 -0800 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards Message-ID: <7E792D04-7883-4862-AB32-3B79A9063C32@shaw.ca> OK, what was the standard (if there was one) number-base syntax for PDP-11 assembler? Despite all the PDP-11 assembly info on web sites, this seems to be a buried bit of info. One assembler doc uses a prefix of "&o", another specifies octal as default and prefix of zero for decimal (opposite of the common C-derived standard . . great). Is this for example standard?: BIT #&o200, @#&o177564 ; test 2^7 bit at address octal 177564 (I'm just trying to make some written commentary consistent with common policy.) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 8 23:17:21 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 21:17:21 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: <1bf6c181-bd17-49b9-65e1-ebad7e8ee893@bitsavers.org> References: <04cf2f28-0fa2-5d15-274e-d82683b0e5d0@bitsavers.org> <1bf6c181-bd17-49b9-65e1-ebad7e8ee893@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8a8fbbf3-6f05-1513-2d1c-d642050573c1@sydex.com> On 01/08/2017 08:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I sent this out to some friends at the end of December I've got a few large (not the torque-handle thing) from the late 60's Xcelite nutdrivers. They don't smell and they're in fine condition. Must have been a formula change at some point. Reminds of the issue with cellulose acetate-based film and tape. Most conscientious people placed said objects in airtight storage containers, which apparently is exactly the thing *not* to do. I'm not aware of any process to reverse the decomposition. Old plastics in general are a nightmare for museum conservators. --Chuck From north at alum.mit.edu Sun Jan 8 23:38:47 2017 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 21:38:47 -0800 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards In-Reply-To: <7E792D04-7883-4862-AB32-3B79A9063C32@shaw.ca> References: <7E792D04-7883-4862-AB32-3B79A9063C32@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 1/8/2017 9:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > OK, what was the standard (if there was one) number-base syntax for PDP-11 assembler? > > Despite all the PDP-11 assembly info on web sites, this seems to be a buried bit of info. > One assembler doc uses a prefix of "&o", another specifies octal as default and prefix of zero for decimal (opposite of the common C-derived standard . . great). > > Is this for example standard?: > > BIT #&o200, @#&o177564 ; test 2^7 bit at address octal 177564 > > (I'm just trying to make some written commentary consistent with common policy.) > > MACRO11 Language Manual v5.5 section 6.4 All numbers are octal radix, unless the default radix is changed via the .RADIX N directive (N can be 2, 8, 10, or 16). N blank resets the radix to octal. So 0100, 100 would be octal 100, decimal value 64. Any number followed by a period (decimal point) is forced to be base 10. So 100. would be decimal 100, octal 144. Prefix operators ^B (binary), ^O (octal), ^D (decimal), ^X (hexadecimal) force the following digits/characters to the designated radix. So ^B101000 == ^O50 == ^D40 == ^X28 all represent the same value (decimal 40.) irrespective of the current .RADIX N setting. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Jan 8 14:57:42 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2017 15:57:42 -0500 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: <00fd01d269df$8c11b580$a4352080$@com> References: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> <00fc01d269db$da64a930$8f2dfb90$@com> <00fd01d269df$8c11b580$a4352080$@com> Message-ID: <7b49d873-858d-deb0-1815-b910955678d0@verizon.net> On 01/08/2017 01:46 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >> R80 the lines are outputs from the drive giving the coding of the ready lamp cap > I was always thought that the R80 had to be unit #0 to function, but I admit that I've never tried anything else. I wonder if that's not true?? The RL02 drive(s) on the IDC can be any of units 1, 2 or 3. > >> The HDA is the only major unit I can't repair (yet!). > Yeah, same here. In addition to the 11/730 with one (dead) R80, one RA81 and one RA82, I have a MicroVAX-III with an RA82 drive. Keeping them all working has been a real challenge. Fixing the electronics and mechanical parts isn't too bad, and I have plenty of spares, but the HDAs don?t seem to be very reliable. I get the impression that they were designed with a finite number of spin up/spin down cycles in mind, and once you exceed that limit they die. Fortunately I've been able to find spares for the RA81 and RA82 HDAs, but R?80s seem to be pretty rare. > > Bob > > Depending on vintage of those HDAs they may have been in the large pool of SNs that had bad (incorrect) adhesive used to assemble the platters and would after about 1.5-2.2 years of spinning would have the glue migrate out and take the heads. It was a major program to recover those that had not yet failed and replace them and make nice to those that had failures. The adhesive used was substituted in manufacturing without ECO. The internal program was costed at something north of 100M$ to achieve. All my VAXen and PDP-11s use RX, RL, RD, and RZ media due to reliability. The only ones worse was RA60 then RC25. Allison Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Jan 8 20:25:42 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2017 21:25:42 -0500 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 01/08/2017 09:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/08/2017 04:42 PM, william degnan wrote: >> Inverse 8085? > I don't think so. If it helps, here's the first few lines of the > "directory": > > 000: 00 a1 7a c1 c0 00 00 > 0007: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 80 1a 02 38 00 > 0013: a1 7a c1 c0 00 00 00 00 1b ff 00 00 > 001f: 5c 25 15 1b 4c 40 00 00 ff ff 37 05 > 002b: 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 ff 8f 31 01 > 0037: c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 85 25 05 > 0043: 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 ff 02 0f 02 > 004f: c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff b6 09 04 > 005b: 94 2f 38 40 00 00 00 00 ff 03 02 03 > 0067: c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 01 12 01 > 0073: d0 7f 9f 12 1f bd 53 28 ff ff 7f 02 > 007f: c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 01 2b 00 > 008b: c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 83 28 04 > 0097: c4 a3 75 6a ab 52 00 00 ff 01 38 00 > 00a3: 94 2f 3e 80 00 00 00 00 ff 01 1d 00 > 00af: 94 2f 4b 00 00 00 00 00 ff 03 35 05 > 00bb: 94 2f 4b 00 00 00 00 00 ff ff 3e 06 > ... > > There are no other tables on disk. The disk itself is hard-sectored, > with a sector length of 150 bytes and 16 sectors per track. They're > interleaved 3:1 and grouped into blocks of 1200 bytes. The directory > would correspond to block 0 and there are 72 entries in it, less the header. > > I can get the raw text, but how it's linked together and what file names > might is still a mystery. > > --Chuck > > I haven't ground on what it may be but there are four likely directory/catalog cases. Bag and tag, the file name starting block (or group of blocks) and number of blocks. usually byte pairs or longer ((16, 24, or 32bits) to get enough addressing and large enough byte counts. CP/M like with entries for file name then a short list of allocation blocks, additional entries if the file is larger and needs for allocation blocks. FYI CPM it can be byte pairs or single byte allocation list. unix like with a simple filename and pointer to Inode there the metadata and block list is. Last case is a reserved set of blocks that are allocated as a linked list and the directory block has the filename and point to the start of the list. Like unix that can easily support subdirectories. None of those are processor specific but the cpu used often determines things like if there is bit packing. As to radix, anything is possible also simeple things like high bit of a 8bit byte suggests a control code or extended characters (or several things). Allison From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 9 00:31:27 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 22:31:27 -0800 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 01/08/2017 06:25 PM, allison wrote: > I haven't ground on what it may be but there are four likely > directory/catalog cases. I've certainly seen my share of various filesystems. In fact, I can laboriously reconstruct the original files, there being only 70 1200 byte blocks on the disk. I thought that having a file name might be useful. I'm just a bit weary of deciphering this one-off and can't get my mind in the right frame to paw through the directory structure. But I put it to you that there exactly 72 (or 71) entries in this list and there are exactly 70 1200-byte blocks--and, make no mistake, they are 1200-byte blocks with a definite format--a header followed by text. Short blocks are denoted by a control character sequence, after which old data to the end of the block may be found. So it's quite possible to splice the bits together into complete documents. But that's cheating--I'd like to understand how the first block directory dictates the relationship between blocks and any file names. So let's look at the directory again--note the 11th bytes all either have values less than 70 (decimal). I'm guessing that that's a forward link to the next block--note that 7F is the only out-of-range value present in this column. I suspect that this is the end-of-file marker. This is all guessing at this point. --Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jan 9 02:28:55 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2017 08:28:55 +0000 Subject: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: <1bf6c181-bd17-49b9-65e1-ebad7e8ee893@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 09/01/2017 04:16, "Al Kossow" wrote: > > I sent this out to some friends at the end of December > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: Stinky screwdrivers > Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 08:51:02 -0800 > From: Al Kossow > To: Eric Schlaepfer , Kenneth Sumrall > CC: Hedley Rainnie , Alvaro > > > http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-153147.html > > I've been buying a lot of Xcelite tools lately, and was wondering why some of > the handles stunk. > We have 2 or 3 sets if Xcelite nut spinners at work with the torque sleeve and they've always stunk, I started there in 2004 and they weren't new then so it's obviously been a thing for a long while! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Jan 9 02:53:46 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 21:53:46 +1300 Subject: Polycorp Poly repair (b)log Message-ID: A few months ago I picked up some Polycorp Polys, a computer designed specifically for the educational market in New Zealand. One worked and one didn't. The latter is now fixed. As usual I've written it up with lots of pictures. If anyone is interested you can read about it here. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-01-08-second-poly1-fix.htm Cheers Tez From ats at offog.org Mon Jan 9 02:56:37 2017 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2017 08:56:37 +0000 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> (Chuck Guzis's message of "Sun, 8 Jan 2017 18:09:17 -0800") References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis writes: > I can get the raw text, but how it's linked together and what file > names might is still a mystery. The Lanier 103 is apparently a rebadged AES Superplus, and one owner says: "The word processor had some strange features, such as each page had to be stored as a separate file, which made adding text to page 1 quite a chore!" http://vintagecomputers.site90.net/aes/ So perhaps there's something unusual going on with the "filesystem" structure... -- Adam Sampson From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 03:06:36 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 09:06:36 -0000 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. Message-ID: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> Folks, Why does this keep on happening? What is google doing to cause this to happen? Is it doing greylisting and mailman ignoring the retry-after time? Dave -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Sent: 09 January 2017 04:11 To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Subject: confirm 3a692ae231ea12a659548c4fb64ac8f80c8fe658 Your membership in the mailing list cctalk has been disabled due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated 08-Jan-2017. You will not get any more messages from this list until you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted. To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this message (leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation page at http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/confirm/cctalk/ You can also visit your membership page at http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk/ On your membership page, you can change various delivery options such as your email address and whether you get digests or not. As a reminder, your membership password is potter123 If you have any questions or problems, you can contact the list owner at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 03:17:48 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 03:17:48 -0600 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Some mailing list stuff goes to my junk mail folder not sure why On Jan 9, 2017 3:16 AM, "Dave Wade" wrote: > Folks, > Why does this keep on happening? What is google doing to cause this to > happen? Is it doing greylisting and mailman ignoring the retry-after time? > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > Sent: 09 January 2017 04:11 > To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com > Subject: confirm 3a692ae231ea12a659548c4fb64ac8f80c8fe658 > > Your membership in the mailing list cctalk has been disabled due to > excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated 08-Jan-2017. > You will not get any more messages from this list until you re-enable your > membership. You will receive 3 more reminders like this before your > membership in the list is deleted. > > To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this message > (leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation page at > > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/confirm/cctalk/ > > > You can also visit your membership page at > > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk/ > > > On your membership page, you can change various delivery options such as > your email address and whether you get digests or not. As a reminder, your > membership password is > > potter123 > > If you have any questions or problems, you can contact the list owner at > > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jan 9 06:47:31 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 07:47:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201701091247.HAA23459@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Why does this keep on happening? What is google doing to cause this > to happen? >> Your membership in the mailing list cctalk has been disabled due to >> excessive bounces "Bouncing mail", presumably. Certainly every time I've gotten that and investigated, I've found record of my rejecting list mail. But why are you asking us rather than Google (who is in a position to tell you what they're doing, including mail they reject) or our listowner (who's in a position to tell you what behaviour the list is seeing from Google)? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:09:00 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 14:09:00 +0100 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9 January 2017 at 10:06, Dave Wade wrote: > Why does this keep on happening? What is google doing to cause this to > happen? Damned if I know, but it's happening to me frequently, too. >:-( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 9 07:31:28 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 13:31:28 -0000 Subject: Contacting Jay West Message-ID: <00c201d26a7c$afeadf20$0fc09d60$@ntlworld.com> I sent a private email to Jay West a few days ago but I have not had a reply. He may be away or I may have the wrong address for him. What is the best way to contact him? Regards Rob From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:37:01 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 08:37:01 -0500 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 8:09 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 9 January 2017 at 10:06, Dave Wade wrote: > > Why does this keep on happening? What is google doing to cause this to > > happen? > > > Damned if I know, but it's happening to me frequently, too. >:-( > > -- > My first thought is that gmail is huge, they load balance email servers and they may bounce on a timing schedule that conflicts with the schedule used by the mail server cctech uses. I'd check the bounce/reply spool, which I am sure Jay does, but that's the kind of thing to look at. It's impossible to please every server and how it handles the greylisting type stuff, and dance the fine line to not look like spam. Gmail is not forgiving of such things, and thus the extra bounces to verify that the message is legit. It would almost be necessary to set up an SMTP smart spool to handle gmail if you wanted zero bounces, not really worth it. This is simply the case of an older mailer program hitting up against the gmail Bournemouth, you have to play by their rules. b From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:40:06 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 14:40:06 +0100 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9 January 2017 at 14:37, william degnan wrote: > the gmail Bournemouth Er. Pardon? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:43:51 2017 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 14:43:51 +0100 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9 January 2017 at 14:37, william degnan wrote: > On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 8:09 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 9 January 2017 at 10:06, Dave Wade wrote: >> > Why does this keep on happening? What is google doing to cause this to >> > happen? >> >> >> Damned if I know, but it's happening to me frequently, too. >:-( >> >> -- >> > > My first thought is that gmail is huge, they load balance email servers and > they may bounce on a timing schedule that conflicts with the schedule used > by the mail server cctech uses.[..] I initially thought that as well, even though I found it unlikely (I've never observed delays when I email from somewhere to a gmail account, and never any bouncing due to load). What I think happens, because it's so frequent, is that some list members use addresses that fail gmail's verification. We already know that yahoo and aol emails suffer from this, their address come through in the mailing list but the sender is not yahoo or aol (it's the mailing list server), and there are some hoops to go through to avoid those problems (I had to set an option to not automatically have those emails go to spam). So, in short, I think the problem is caused by posts from some particular subscribers getting bounced by some servers (among them, gmail), not that the receving servers (e.g. gmail) are overloaded or otherwise failing. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Jan 9 07:44:44 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 14:44:44 +0100 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170109134444.GZ5974@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Jan 09, 2017 at 02:40:06PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > On 9 January 2017 at 14:37, william degnan wrote: > > the gmail Bournemouth > > > Er. Pardon? > "behemoth" + spell checking ? /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Jan 9 07:45:26 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 14:45:26 +0100 Subject: Contacting Jay West In-Reply-To: <00c201d26a7c$afeadf20$0fc09d60$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c201d26a7c$afeadf20$0fc09d60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20170109134526.GA5974@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Jan 09, 2017 at 01:31:28PM -0000, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I sent a private email to Jay West a few days ago but I have not had a > reply. He may be away or I may have the wrong address for him. What is the > best way to contact him? > A bit of patience I think. He seems quite busy sometimes. /P From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:50:51 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 08:50:51 -0500 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: <20170109134444.GZ5974@Update.UU.SE> References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> <20170109134444.GZ5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 8:44 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Jan 09, 2017 at 02:40:06PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 9 January 2017 at 14:37, william degnan wrote: > > > the gmail Bournemouth > > > > > > Er. Pardon? > > > > "behemoth" + spell checking ? > > /P > LOL! Yup. ha. I deal with mail every day. I have an international client that has to weed through all of the crazy domain extensions (crazy to an American anyway) used by businesses in emerging countries. Sending and receiving mail through that sea of crap is challenging and I have had to do a lot of tweaking to make it work. Bill From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:52:33 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 14:52:33 +0100 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: <20170109134444.GZ5974@Update.UU.SE> References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> <20170109134444.GZ5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 9 January 2017 at 14:44, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Jan 09, 2017 at 02:40:06PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 9 January 2017 at 14:37, william degnan wrote: >> > the gmail Bournemouth >> >> >> Er. Pardon? >> > > "behemoth" + spell checking ? Oh, good guess, could be. :-) I don't know, I mean, the GMail Bournemouth makes a pleasant change from the Beast of Redmond and the evil Cupertino. I've never been to Bournemouth myself, but I've heard it's very nice. Pleasant little seaside town. What next? Microsoft, the Mousehole of computing? Apple, known as the Cowdenbeath of the smartphone industry? Facebook, the Lule? of social networking? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 08:07:43 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 14:07:43 +0000 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> <20170109134444.GZ5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: A Bournemouth you say? Over to Auntie Beeb: http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/lookaroundyou/programmes/computers/ :) On 9 January 2017 at 13:50, william degnan wrote: > On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 8:44 AM, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 09, 2017 at 02:40:06PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > > > On 9 January 2017 at 14:37, william degnan > wrote: > > > > the gmail Bournemouth > > > > > > > > > Er. Pardon? > > > > > > > "behemoth" + spell checking ? > > > > /P > > > > LOL! Yup. ha. > > I deal with mail every day. I have an international client that has to > weed through all of the crazy domain extensions (crazy to an American > anyway) used by businesses in emerging countries. Sending and receiving > mail through that sea of crap is challenging and I have had to do a lot of > tweaking to make it work. > > Bill > -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Jan 9 08:09:30 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 09:09:30 -0500 Subject: Contacting Jay West Message-ID: <60d53f.28f1b415.45a4f39a@aol.com> In a message dated 1/9/2017 6:45:32 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, pontus at Update.UU.SE writes: On Mon, Jan 09, 2017 at 01:31:28PM -0000, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I sent a private email to Jay West a few days ago but I have not had a > reply. He may be away or I may have the wrong address for him. What is the > best way to contact him? > A bit of patience I think. He seems quite busy sometimes. /P put hp-2000 in the title? From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 9 08:13:07 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 09:13:07 -0500 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards In-Reply-To: References: <7E792D04-7883-4862-AB32-3B79A9063C32@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <090129C0-778F-460F-B6FD-18AAEB9331D5@comcast.net> > On Jan 9, 2017, at 12:38 AM, Don North wrote: > > On 1/8/2017 9:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> OK, what was the standard (if there was one) number-base syntax for PDP-11 assembler? >> >> Despite all the PDP-11 assembly info on web sites, this seems to be a buried bit of info. >> One assembler doc uses a prefix of "&o", another specifies octal as default and prefix of zero for decimal (opposite of the common C-derived standard . . great). >> >> Is this for example standard?: >> >> BIT #&o200, @#&o177564 ; test 2^7 bit at address octal 177564 >> >> (I'm just trying to make some written commentary consistent with common policy.) >> >> > MACRO11 Language Manual v5.5 section 6.4 > > All numbers are octal radix, unless the default radix is changed via the .RADIX N directive (N can be 2, 8, 10, or 16). N blank resets the radix to octal. > > So 0100, 100 would be octal 100, decimal value 64. > > Any number followed by a period (decimal point) is forced to be base 10. > > So 100. would be decimal 100, octal 144. > > Prefix operators ^B (binary), ^O (octal), ^D (decimal), ^X (hexadecimal) force the following digits/characters to the designated radix. > > So ^B101000 == ^O50 == ^D40 == ^X28 all represent the same value (decimal 40.) irrespective of the current .RADIX N setting. I don't remember ^X. Other ways to specify numeric values is with prefix ' (single quote) for a single byte value, i.e., 'x is the ASCII code for character x. Similarly, "xy is a 16 bit value for the two-character sequence xy (little endian). And ^Rxyz is the RAD50 coded value for the three characters xyz. &o doesn't match anything I've ever seen, not even in the wildly different world of Unix. paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 08:21:16 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 08:21:16 -0600 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> <20170109134444.GZ5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 01/09/2017 08:07 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > A Bournemouth you say? Over to Auntie Beeb: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/lookaroundyou/programmes/computers/ Git, I went away to find that link, came back to paste it, and you'd got there first :-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 9 09:12:03 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 09:12:03 -0600 Subject: Contacting Jay West In-Reply-To: <60d53f.28f1b415.45a4f39a@aol.com> References: <60d53f.28f1b415.45a4f39a@aol.com> Message-ID: <008701d26a8a$bc14da40$343e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> Ed, that's actually supremely funny *grin* And probably would work as well. Rob; Got your email, swamped at the moment, should get back to you today. My entire hosting infrastructure is being moved... so I'm a bit behind the 8ball right now. Apologies for the delay! J ------------- /P put hp-2000 in the title? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 9 09:16:52 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 07:16:52 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: <8a8fbbf3-6f05-1513-2d1c-d642050573c1@sydex.com> References: <04cf2f28-0fa2-5d15-274e-d82683b0e5d0@bitsavers.org> <1bf6c181-bd17-49b9-65e1-ebad7e8ee893@bitsavers.org> <8a8fbbf3-6f05-1513-2d1c-d642050573c1@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2b9198e0-64da-c898-d921-3b1bad575724@bitsavers.org> Exactly the problem with tool sets that are kept in sealed plastic containers. BTW, you NEVER want to keep anything that outgasses/chemically decomposes in a sealed container. Sealed PLASTIC containers are even worse. Reminds me that I need to throw out the plastic latching-lid tool boxes that I have. On 1/8/17 9:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Reminds of the issue with cellulose acetate-based film and tape. Most > conscientious people placed said objects in airtight storage containers, > which apparently is exactly the thing *not* to do. I'm not aware of any > process to reverse the decomposition. > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 9 09:59:31 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 15:59:31 -0000 Subject: Contacting Jay West In-Reply-To: <008701d26a8a$bc14da40$343e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> References: <60d53f.28f1b415.45a4f39a@aol.com> <008701d26a8a$bc14da40$343e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00d601d26a91$5e058d30$1a10a790$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: 09 January 2017 15:12 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Contacting Jay West > > Ed, that's actually supremely funny *grin* And probably would work as well. > > Rob; > Got your email, swamped at the moment, should get back to you today. > My entire hosting infrastructure is being moved... so I'm a bit behind the > 8ball right now. Apologies for the delay! > No HP-2000 problem, just wasn't HP-2000 sure if I had sent it to the right place HP-2000. :-) Regards Rob From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 10:52:57 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 16:52:57 +0000 Subject: Stripping an RA80 In-Reply-To: <7b49d873-858d-deb0-1815-b910955678d0@verizon.net> References: <20170107184846.GU5974@Update.UU.SE> <00fc01d269db$da64a930$8f2dfb90$@com> <00fd01d269df$8c11b580$a4352080$@com> <7b49d873-858d-deb0-1815-b910955678d0@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 8:57 PM, allison wrote: > Depending on vintage of those HDAs they may have been in the large pool > of SNs that had bad (incorrect) adhesive > used to assemble the platters and would after about 1.5-2.2 years of > spinning would have the glue migrate out Is it therefore likely that if an HDA has lasted this long it is likely to have been made with the 'good' adhesive? > All my VAXen and PDP-11s use RX, RL, RD, and RZ media due to > reliability. The only ones worse was RA60 then RC25. I have an RA60 (but no media for it). What was the problem with that one? At least you can replace heads in the field (although getting new heads is going to be 'fun'). Problem for me is that I have the compact 11/730 system. The CPU box is pretty much full -- CPU, IDC (I don't have the floating point board, but it's a dedicated slot anyway so I can't put something else there), 4M RAM, TSU05 controller. I don't have space for another disk controller (certainly not a UDA50). I really want to keep the machine in the short rack too. Which means using an R80 or something that emulates one. I wonder how hard it would be to interface some other storage device to the IDC. -tony > > Allison > > Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 9 10:55:37 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 08:55:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> <20170109134444.GZ5974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, Adrian Graham wrote: > A Bournemouth you say? Over to Auntie Beeb: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/lookaroundyou/programmes/computers/ > :) Is THAT the gmail Bournemouth? It manages gmail and has been bouncing? Maybe it just needs another blank 5.25" floppy to hold the excess to stop the bouncing? (Perhaps any single email larger than 200K SHOULD bounce) It can compete favourably with the PET at the top of the page. Did they sell 10,000 of those? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 9 10:59:47 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 08:59:47 -0800 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0a51ea16-df62-7e41-893c-0ed34b3d5d21@sydex.com> On 01/09/2017 12:56 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > Chuck Guzis writes: > >> I can get the raw text, but how it's linked together and what file >> names might is still a mystery. > > The Lanier 103 is apparently a rebadged AES Superplus, and one owner > says: > > "The word processor had some strange features, such as each page had > to be stored as a separate file, which made adding text to page 1 > quite a chore!" http://vintagecomputers.site90.net/aes/ > > So perhaps there's something unusual going on with the "filesystem" > structure... I'd seen the web page, but missed the bit about one page per file--I don't think that's quite correct, but it's probably close. That's useful. I suspect that the number in the 12th byte might be an indication of the number of segments involved in a file. I observe that these are all small numbers or 0. But that also means that what I suspect is a "filename field" is most likely just that. Now to figure out the decoding... I wish there were an operator's manual for the thing around. That alone would clear up a lot of questions. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 9 11:28:00 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 09:28:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: <0a51ea16-df62-7e41-893c-0ed34b3d5d21@sydex.com> References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> <0a51ea16-df62-7e41-893c-0ed34b3d5d21@sydex.com> Message-ID: Need there BE a filename? An OS, particularly for a word processor, could have an IMPLICIT list of filenames on a disk of DOCUMENT1 DOCUMENT2 DOCUMENT3 in which case, the table that you have found could be little more than record keeping of which "documents" are allocated V free-space, how much of the "document" is used (file-length), and maybe date? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 9 11:28:44 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 09:28:44 -0800 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: <0a51ea16-df62-7e41-893c-0ed34b3d5d21@sydex.com> References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> <0a51ea16-df62-7e41-893c-0ed34b3d5d21@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0ac4f4f1-7d6f-aa33-bb16-7968b0eb69f5@sydex.com> The web search breadth increases a bit when the term "No Problem" is substituted for "103" when looking for Lanier documents. Not much, but there are some tidbits. Such as: " Its main drawback was that it was a page-oriented program as opposed to a document-oriented program. You got only 99 lines on a page, and then you had to store that on disk and start the next page. That made it cumbersome to go back and review what was on previous pages. That 99-line limitation was in part a function of limited memory. In those days memory was expensive and most computers had only 32K of RAM. The Lanier No Problem was a 32K machine and both the program and the document you were working on had to be in memory at the same time. To get around these shortcomings the Lanier would repaginate, that is, take your original document and break it up into pages of the length you wanted. " --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 9 11:51:49 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 09:51:49 -0800 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> <0a51ea16-df62-7e41-893c-0ed34b3d5d21@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4fac900b-38a4-b919-1738-e1d57985d049@sydex.com> On 01/09/2017 09:28 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Need there BE a filename? > > An OS, particularly for a word processor, could have an IMPLICIT list > of filenames on a disk of DOCUMENT1 DOCUMENT2 DOCUMENT3 I found this document: http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA199551 about transferring Lanier "No Problem" files to a Unix (Gould 9050) mini. The interchange program was a serial-comms program, so no value to disk interpretation. However, in section 2.2, there's light shed on how the Lanier manages its files. Very unusual, but might well explain some of the directory bits. But apparently files were named--and some sort of name compression appears to be in use as the name of the comms program is 9 characters long, while the file name area appears to be only 8 bytes in length. --Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jan 9 12:28:07 2017 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 10:28:07 -0800 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170109102807.1abab484@asrock.bcwi.net> On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 14:43:51 +0100 Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 9 January 2017 at 14:37, william degnan > wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 8:09 AM, Liam Proven > > wrote: > >> On 9 January 2017 at 10:06, Dave Wade > >> wrote: > >> > Why does this keep on happening? What is google doing to cause > >> > this to happen? > >> > >> > >> Damned if I know, but it's happening to me frequently, too. >:-( > >> > >> -- > >> > > > > My first thought is that gmail is huge, they load balance email > > servers and they may bounce on a timing schedule that conflicts > > with the schedule used by the mail server cctech uses.[..] > > I initially thought that as well, even though I found it unlikely > (I've never observed delays when I email from somewhere to a gmail > account, and never any bouncing due to load). > > What I think happens, because it's so frequent, is that some list > members use addresses that fail gmail's verification. We already know > that yahoo and aol emails suffer from this, their address come through > in the mailing list but the sender is not yahoo or aol (it's the > mailing list server), and there are some hoops to go through to avoid > those problems (I had to set an option to not automatically have those > emails go to spam). > > So, in short, I think the problem is caused by posts from some > particular subscribers getting bounced by some servers (among them, > gmail), not that the receving servers (e.g. gmail) are overloaded or > otherwise failing. This is absolutely correct. As an admin that manages a CHM list on Google, I agree that the problem is NOT with Google Gmail per se. They are merely enforcing what they promised to do months ago. Enforce the DMARC policy. Here's a typical response from Google when a mail server does not follow practices initiated to reduce SPAM (actual domain hidden by me with xxxxxx.xxx): ----------------------------------------------------------------------- host gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com [173.194.203.27] SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data: 550-5.7.1 Unauthenticated email from xxxxxx.xxx is not accepted due to domain's 550-5.7.1 DMARC policy. Please contact the administrator of xxxxxx.xxx domain 550-5.7.1 if this was a legitimate mail. Please visit 550-5.7.1 https://support.google.com/mail/answer/2451690 to learn about the 550 5.7.1 DMARC initiative. q12si89233361pgc.52 - gsmtp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, this typically happens when an email is posted to an email server which is then redirected to Gmail via another server. More and more mail systems will be enforcing DMARC policies - so it would be good to make sure your ISP is setup correctly. FYI - I use MANY email vendors (yahoo, comcast, arrl, acm, any my own bickleywest.com, cerfnet.net, cerfnet.org, etc.) and ALL conform to the DMARC policy and have no issues sending to or receiving mail from gmail. Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From isking at uw.edu Mon Jan 9 13:38:06 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 11:38:06 -0800 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. In-Reply-To: <20170109102807.1abab484@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <01db01d26a57$aed947e0$0c8bd7a0$@gmail.com> <20170109102807.1abab484@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 10:28 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > FYI - I use MANY email vendors (yahoo, comcast, arrl, acm, any my own > bickleywest.com, cerfnet.net, cerfnet.org, etc.) and ALL conform to the > DMARC policy and have no issues sending to or receiving mail from gmail. > > Cheers, > Lyle > > > FWIW, the account on which I'm sending this is the UW's domain hosted by Gmail, and I've had no problems sending email to the list. Just another data point.... -- Ian > > > > > -- > 73 AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From isking at uw.edu Mon Jan 9 13:47:47 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 11:47:47 -0800 Subject: Polycorp Poly repair (b)log In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > A few months ago I picked up some Polycorp Polys, a computer designed > specifically for the educational market in New Zealand. One worked and one > didn't. The latter is now fixed. As usual I've written it up with lots of > pictures. If anyone is interested you can read about it here. > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-01-08-second-poly1-fix.htm > > Cheers > > Tez > Nice fix! It always amazes me how little of the inside of this sort of machine was actual digital electronics, and how much was power, video and sometimes drives. I brought a TeleVideo TPC-1 back to life a few months ago, and your restoration brings back memories (some of them cringeworthy). -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 14:07:08 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2017 14:07:08 -0600 Subject: GMAIL accounts suspended. Message-ID: <6bw3xce58yy61jca2cr4p99y.1483992343769@email.android.com> On a side note Dave, incase you hadn't already you should change your password since that was included in the original post. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 14:30:53 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 15:30:53 -0500 Subject: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: References: <1bf6c181-bd17-49b9-65e1-ebad7e8ee893@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 3:28 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > We have 2 or 3 sets if Xcelite nut spinners at work with the torque sleeve > and they've always stunk, I started there in 2004 and they weren't new then > so it's obviously been a thing for a long while! I have some Xcelite tools from the early 1980s. They have been stinky for over 30 years. The large amber handles with the metal insert (for screwdrivers and nutdrivers) even frequently accumulate a crusty white "rind" that wipes off with a little effort, but returns after sitting in a drawer for a few months. Definitely a butyrate stink (I used to run chemistry shows at The Center of Science and Industry - one was on Esters... we mixed a variety of alcohols with a variety of fatty acids and let the audience smell the results... it was all fun and games until I spilled 200ml of Butyric Acid on myself... :-P ) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 9 15:17:38 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 21:17:38 +0000 Subject: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: References: <1bf6c181-bd17-49b9-65e1-ebad7e8ee893@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 09/01/2017 20:30, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Esters... we mixed a variety of alcohols with a variety of fatty acids > and let the audience smell the results... it was all fun and games > until I spilled 200ml of Butyric Acid on myself... :-P ) Ooooh! I know that smell. And it doesn't come off easily! -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Jan 9 08:27:57 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 06:27:57 -0800 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards In-Reply-To: <090129C0-778F-460F-B6FD-18AAEB9331D5@comcast.net> References: <7E792D04-7883-4862-AB32-3B79A9063C32@shaw.ca> <090129C0-778F-460F-B6FD-18AAEB9331D5@comcast.net> Message-ID: wow ... the memories ... someday I've got to get a PDP-11 again :-). had most of the opcodes memorized, for a story .... Had a coworker who played the piano, he could enter/patch code from the 11/35's panel from memory so fast all you saw was a blur. When we replacing the 11/35's with 11/34A he hated it. -pete On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jan 9, 2017, at 12:38 AM, Don North wrote: >> >> On 1/8/2017 9:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> OK, what was the standard (if there was one) number-base syntax for PDP-11 assembler? >>> >>> Despite all the PDP-11 assembly info on web sites, this seems to be a buried bit of info. >>> One assembler doc uses a prefix of "&o", another specifies octal as default and prefix of zero for decimal (opposite of the common C-derived standard . . great). >>> >>> Is this for example standard?: >>> >>> BIT #&o200, @#&o177564 ; test 2^7 bit at address octal 177564 >>> >>> (I'm just trying to make some written commentary consistent with common policy.) >>> >>> >> MACRO11 Language Manual v5.5 section 6.4 >> >> All numbers are octal radix, unless the default radix is changed via the .RADIX N directive (N can be 2, 8, 10, or 16). N blank resets the radix to octal. >> >> So 0100, 100 would be octal 100, decimal value 64. >> >> Any number followed by a period (decimal point) is forced to be base 10. >> >> So 100. would be decimal 100, octal 144. >> >> Prefix operators ^B (binary), ^O (octal), ^D (decimal), ^X (hexadecimal) force the following digits/characters to the designated radix. >> >> So ^B101000 == ^O50 == ^D40 == ^X28 all represent the same value (decimal 40.) irrespective of the current .RADIX N setting. > > I don't remember ^X. Other ways to specify numeric values is with prefix ' (single quote) for a single byte value, i.e., 'x is the ASCII code for character x. Similarly, "xy is a 16 bit value for the two-character sequence xy (little endian). And ^Rxyz is the RAD50 coded value for the three characters xyz. > > &o doesn't match anything I've ever seen, not even in the wildly different world of Unix. > > paul > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 9 16:13:04 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 14:13:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Contacting Jay West In-Reply-To: <00d601d26a91$5e058d30$1a10a790$@ntlworld.com> References: <60d53f.28f1b415.45a4f39a@aol.com> <008701d26a8a$bc14da40$343e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> <00d601d26a91$5e058d30$1a10a790$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > No HP-2000 problem, just wasn't HP-2000 sure if I had sent it to the right > place HP-2000. > "Meet single HP-2000 in your area!" g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From chd at chdickman.com Mon Jan 9 16:30:32 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 17:30:32 -0500 Subject: Stinky resistors was Re: Stinky screwdrivers Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have some Xcelite tools from the early 1980s. They have been stinky > for over 30 years. Same experience. I have some in a drawer on my work work-bench that were purchased in the early 80s and they still smell. > Definitely a butyrate stink (I used to > run chemistry shows at The Center of Science and Industry - one was on > Esters... we mixed a variety of alcohols with a variety of fatty acids > and let the audience smell the results... it was all fun and games > until I spilled 200ml of Butyric Acid on myself... :-P ) In high school chemistry we did some experiments with that stuff. I think the teacher just liked to stink up the school every year. Now I also have a bunch of drawers filled with Allen-Bradley carbon composition resistors from around 1970. All the leads have a whitish film on them that has a peculiar odor. They've been in the electrical lab at work, in an office environment since that time. I've always been a little curious about what caused it. -chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 16:31:44 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 17:31:44 -0500 Subject: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: References: <1bf6c181-bd17-49b9-65e1-ebad7e8ee893@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 09/01/2017 20:30, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Esters... we mixed a variety of alcohols with a variety of fatty acids >> and let the audience smell the results... it was all fun and games >> until I spilled 200ml of Butyric Acid on myself... :-P ) > > Ooooh! I know that smell. And it doesn't come off easily! I was just put out because they sent me home but wouldn't let me take the bus. I had to wait for my mother to pick me up. -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 17:33:56 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 17:33:56 -0600 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: <4fac900b-38a4-b919-1738-e1d57985d049@sydex.com> References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> <0a51ea16-df62-7e41-893c-0ed34b3d5d21@sydex.com> <4fac900b-38a4-b919-1738-e1d57985d049@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6caf734e-4232-4cb1-e78d-68de100b1879@gmail.com> On 01/09/2017 11:51 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/09/2017 09:28 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Need there BE a filename? >> >> An OS, particularly for a word processor, could have an IMPLICIT list >> of filenames on a disk of DOCUMENT1 DOCUMENT2 DOCUMENT3 > > > I found this document: > > http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA199551 > > about transferring Lanier "No Problem" files to a Unix (Gould 9050) > mini. The interchange program was a serial-comms program, so no value > to disk interpretation. I suppose *if* you had a disk with the program on then it would give a known name to be searching for... except that the doc seems to call it TTY_ASCII in places and ASCII-TTY in others :-( > But apparently files were named--and some sort of name compression > appears to be in use as the name of the comms program is 9 characters > long, while the file name area appears to be only 8 bytes in length. It seems unlikely that a simple system would resort to something like frequency analysis of characters when encoding filenames, though, particularly given the size of the data (the overhead would probably not make it worthwhile) - so I'm guessing we should be looking at "plain text", just with some unusual character size or distribution. I did hack some quick code to alter the character size (6, 7 and 8 bits), spacing between characters (0, 1 and 2 bits) and offset from the start of the stream, then 'slide' the resulting data through the ASCII table and search for the "LTER" name that you mentioned previously, but without any luck. That does make the assumption that values for A-Z are contiguous, which seems likely but not certain. I didn't look at 5 bit characters, which is a possibility if only alpha characters and not numerics are allowed in filenames. I'm not sure if filenames are stored in their entirety, though - I think there was an example in that PDF which seemed to imply that pages have their own short names, and that these might be concatenated to form an overall name for the group of pages - I need to do more than just skim-read the document to understand that. It makes me wonder if there isn't some very short (2 or 3 character) limit on individual directory entries though, and these are chained together to make a larger name (and file)? cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 9 18:41:08 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 16:41:08 -0800 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: <6caf734e-4232-4cb1-e78d-68de100b1879@gmail.com> References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> <0a51ea16-df62-7e41-893c-0ed34b3d5d21@sydex.com> <4fac900b-38a4-b919-1738-e1d57985d049@sydex.com> <6caf734e-4232-4cb1-e78d-68de100b1879@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/09/2017 03:33 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > It seems unlikely that a simple system would resort to something > like frequency analysis of characters when encoding filenames, > though, particularly given the size of the data (the overhead would > probably not make it worthwhile) - so I'm guessing we should be > looking at "plain text", just with some unusual character size or > distribution. > > I did hack some quick code to alter the character size (6, 7 and 8 > bits), spacing between characters (0, 1 and 2 bits) and offset from > the start of the stream, then 'slide' the resulting data through the > ASCII table and search for the "LTER" name that you mentioned > previously, but without any luck. That does make the assumption that > values for A-Z are contiguous, which seems likely but not certain. Given the simple 8080 architecture, we may be looking at "rotated" bits also; I don't know. But rest assured, every block after the first (directory) block contains text. There are no "hidden" file names. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 9 20:48:14 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2017 20:48:14 -0600 Subject: Stinky resistors was Re: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58744B6E.3020509@pico-systems.com> On 01/09/2017 04:30 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > it was all fun and games > until I spilled 200ml of Butyric Acid on myself... :-P ) YIKES! 200 ml? Nowadays, that would cause everybody from the EPA to Homeland Security to get involved! I think that might be worse than being sprayed by a skunk point blank. Jon From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Jan 9 21:30:57 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 21:30:57 -0600 Subject: Stinky resistors was Re: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: <58744B6E.3020509@pico-systems.com> References: <58744B6E.3020509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20170110033057.GA12132@lonesome.com> On Mon, Jan 09, 2017 at 08:48:14PM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: > YIKES! 200 ml? Nowadays, that would cause everybody from the EPA to > Homeland Security to get involved! I'm not sure the statute of limitations has run out on what my friend (we'll call him "Joe") and I got up to in high school chemistry. But in today's edition of Did You Know: Did You Know that canisters labeled Hydrogen act differently than canisters labeled Helium? mcl From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jan 9 22:31:50 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2017 22:31:50 -0600 Subject: Stinky resistors was Re: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: <20170110033057.GA12132@lonesome.com> References: <58744B6E.3020509@pico-systems.com> <20170110033057.GA12132@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On January 9, 2017 9:30:57 PM CST, Mark Linimon wrote: >On Mon, Jan 09, 2017 at 08:48:14PM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: >> YIKES! 200 ml? Nowadays, that would cause everybody from the EPA to >> Homeland Security to get involved! > >I'm not sure the statute of limitations has run out on what my friend >(we'll call him "Joe") and I got up to in high school chemistry. > >But in today's edition of Did You Know: > > Did You Know that canisters labeled Hydrogen act differently than > canisters labeled Helium? > >mcl oh ya... and Did You Know that those little rubber bumps on the top of a 3/4" test tube stopper can inflate to about 4" diameter before they burst when they are used to try to stop the flow of natural gas from the spigot that supplies a Bunsen burner? Did You Know you can evacuate 600 students in about 5 minutes due to "gas leak"? These are the things you learn while having to _wait_ (and wait and wait) to use the Teletype 33 and dialup modem in the room next to the little chemistry lab. cje -- Chris Elmquist From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Jan 9 22:51:41 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:51:41 -0600 Subject: Stinky resistors was Re: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: References: <58744B6E.3020509@pico-systems.com> <20170110033057.GA12132@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20170110045141.GA12364@lonesome.com> On Mon, Jan 09, 2017 at 10:31:50PM -0600, Chris Elmquist wrote: > These are the things you learn while having to _wait_ (and wait and > wait) to use the Teletype 33 and dialup modem in the room next to the > little chemistry lab. Did we go to the same high school? mcl From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 22:51:59 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 23:51:59 -0500 Subject: Stinky resistors was Re: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: <58744B6E.3020509@pico-systems.com> References: <58744B6E.3020509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 01/09/2017 04:30 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> >> it was all fun and games >> until I spilled 200ml of Butyric Acid on myself... :-P ) > > YIKES! 200 ml? Nowadays, that would cause everybody from the EPA to > Homeland Security to get involved! Most likely. > I think that might be worse than being sprayed by a skunk point blank. You'd think that based on the looks on the faces of everyone around me. I am not exaggerating when I say that everyone shouted "No!" when I said I was going to take the bus home... -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Jan 9 16:58:57 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2017 17:58:57 -0500 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: <4fac900b-38a4-b919-1738-e1d57985d049@sydex.com> References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> <0a51ea16-df62-7e41-893c-0ed34b3d5d21@sydex.com> <4fac900b-38a4-b919-1738-e1d57985d049@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 01/09/2017 12:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/09/2017 09:28 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Need there BE a filename? >> >> An OS, particularly for a word processor, could have an IMPLICIT list >> of filenames on a disk of DOCUMENT1 DOCUMENT2 DOCUMENT3 > > I found this document: > > http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA199551 > > about transferring Lanier "No Problem" files to a Unix (Gould 9050) > mini. The interchange program was a serial-comms program, so no value > to disk interpretation. > > However, in section 2.2, there's light shed on how the Lanier manages > its files. Very unusual, but might well explain some of the directory bits. > > But apparently files were named--and some sort of name compression > appears to be in use as the name of the comms program is 9 characters > long, while the file name area appears to be only 8 bytes in length. Low majik there... 8 bytes of 7 bit ascii means one free bytes worth of bits, to do that start with an 8byte area as 64 bits and stuff the bits. The only question is are the left justified or right a few minutes by hand can discover that. Done that way 9 characters fit in 8 bytes. Another allocation scheme is one page per track, about 1200-1500 bytes, or about 35 pages for a 35track floppy. So each tack is a page and the file header has the page name and a linked list to the next. There are more ways to organize a disk than Carter has liver pills. Allison > > --Chuck > From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Jan 9 17:04:07 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 15:04:07 -0800 Subject: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: References: <1bf6c181-bd17-49b9-65e1-ebad7e8ee893@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Do a Google search on cellulose acetate butyrate the 'stink' is mostly acetic acid and as it has been stated, the key is ACID, think what would happen if you poured a cup of white vinegar inside you favorite classic. Yea not a bad but the idea is the same. I emailed the Apex Tool Group a year ago and their response was live with the coating, which became a challenge. You can't clean them but you can buff the handles and then polish. But there is no way to stop the chemical reaction. Saying that, does not explain why I have some "Parks Metal Ware" drivers that have not decayed. -pete On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 2:31 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 09/01/2017 20:30, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> Esters... we mixed a variety of alcohols with a variety of fatty acids >>> and let the audience smell the results... it was all fun and games >>> until I spilled 200ml of Butyric Acid on myself... :-P ) >> >> Ooooh! I know that smell. And it doesn't come off easily! > > I was just put out because they sent me home but wouldn't let me take > the bus. I had to wait for my mother to pick me up. > > -ethan > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 9 17:37:51 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 15:37:51 -0800 Subject: Sunday brain tickler In-Reply-To: References: <031301fd-88c0-bda1-84f5-744d97e147a6@sydex.com> <9565e619-faab-c7a9-76bc-faca7a6e98db@gmail.com> <08fe44ae-0e75-3775-eb86-58fd781f0d16@sydex.com> <3348c19c-dfb9-6b3a-85ae-1c037af46157@sydex.com> <0a51ea16-df62-7e41-893c-0ed34b3d5d21@sydex.com> <4fac900b-38a4-b919-1738-e1d57985d049@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 01/09/2017 02:58 PM, allison wrote: > Low majik there... 8 bytes of 7 bit ascii means one free bytes > worth of bits, to do that start with an 8byte area as 64 bits and > stuff the bits. The only question is are the left justified or > right a few minutes by hand can discover that. Done that way 9 > characters fit in 8 bytes. > Another allocation scheme is one page per track, about 1200-1500 > bytes, or about 35 pages for a 35track floppy. So each tack is a > page and the file header has the page name and a linked list to the > next. There are actually 16 150-byte sectors (4 byte header in the form of DB TT SS CC where CC is the arithmetic sum of TT and SS, followed by 151 bytes of data, with the last byte being the simple sum of bytes 1-150 modulo 256. Encoding is simple FM, with no "funny" missing clock bits. The sectors are ordered in two groups of 1200 bytes: 0,11,6,1,12,7,2,13 and 8,3,14,9,4,15,10,5 There are 70 groups on the disk, obviously. I've learned that the 103 was a 32KB 8080 system, so not so sophisticated. It's the filename encoding that has me stymied, not the data retrieval itself. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 10 00:27:10 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:27:10 -0800 Subject: Stinky resistors was Re: Stinky screwdrivers In-Reply-To: References: <58744B6E.3020509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 01/09/2017 08:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > You'd think that based on the looks on the faces of everyone around > me. I am not exaggerating when I say that everyone shouted "No!" when > I said I was going to take the bus home... Ah, high-school--and 7 AM zoology lab. I definitely recall the expressions of the students around me after working on my tiger shark dissection. Start the day by rolling up your sleeve and fishing around from your "project" in a barrel of formaldehyde. Not just the odor of formaldehyde, but also that of rotting fish. You couldn't wash that stink out--it just sort of wore off during the day. Today, of course, there's no way the authorities would let their young'uns splash around in formaldehyde... --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 10 00:49:44 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 23:49:44 -0700 Subject: Contacting Jay West In-Reply-To: References: <60d53f.28f1b415.45a4f39a@aol.com> <008701d26a8a$bc14da40$343e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> <00d601d26a91$5e058d30$1a10a790$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <847606cd-4b80-20ca-be8a-0864b16ee4ec@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/9/2017 3:13 PM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> >> No HP-2000 problem, just wasn't HP-2000 sure if I had sent it to the >> right >> place HP-2000. >> > "Meet single HP-2000 in your area!" > > g. > Where are the Female Computers? Hal From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Jan 10 01:37:16 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 23:37:16 -0800 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards In-Reply-To: References: <7E792D04-7883-4862-AB32-3B79A9063C32@shaw.ca> <090129C0-778F-460F-B6FD-18AAEB9331D5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <93F07B33-EF5A-449B-A274-97AAA77AAC4D@shaw.ca> On 2017-Jan-09, at 6:27 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > wow ... the memories ... someday I've got to get a PDP-11 again :-). > > had most of the opcodes memorized, for a story .... > > Had a coworker who played the piano, he could enter/patch code from > the 11/35's panel from memory so fast all you saw was a blur. > > When we replacing the 11/35's with 11/34A he hated it. > > -pete > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Jan 9, 2017, at 12:38 AM, Don North wrote: >>> >>> On 1/8/2017 9:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> OK, what was the standard (if there was one) number-base syntax for PDP-11 assembler? >>>> >>>> Despite all the PDP-11 assembly info on web sites, this seems to be a buried bit of info. >>>> One assembler doc uses a prefix of "&o", another specifies octal as default and prefix of zero for decimal (opposite of the common C-derived standard . . great). >>>> >>>> Is this for example standard?: >>>> >>>> BIT #&o200, @#&o177564 ; test 2^7 bit at address octal 177564 >>>> >>>> (I'm just trying to make some written commentary consistent with common policy.) >>>> >>>> >>> MACRO11 Language Manual v5.5 section 6.4 >>> >>> All numbers are octal radix, unless the default radix is changed via the .RADIX N directive (N can be 2, 8, 10, or 16). N blank resets the radix to octal. >>> >>> So 0100, 100 would be octal 100, decimal value 64. >>> >>> Any number followed by a period (decimal point) is forced to be base 10. >>> >>> So 100. would be decimal 100, octal 144. >>> >>> Prefix operators ^B (binary), ^O (octal), ^D (decimal), ^X (hexadecimal) force the following digits/characters to the designated radix. >>> >>> So ^B101000 == ^O50 == ^D40 == ^X28 all represent the same value (decimal 40.) irrespective of the current .RADIX N setting. >> >> I don't remember ^X. Other ways to specify numeric values is with prefix ' (single quote) for a single byte value, i.e., 'x is the ASCII code for character x. Similarly, "xy is a 16 bit value for the two-character sequence xy (little endian). And ^Rxyz is the RAD50 coded value for the three characters xyz. >> >> &o doesn't match anything I've ever seen, not even in the wildly different world of Unix. So the answer is, by modern expectations the old standard would be ambiguous or misleading. I guess I should just comment it. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 02:08:27 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 08:08:27 -0000 Subject: OT: Female Computer RE: Contacting Jay West Message-ID: <0dce01d26b18$b9e0f2c0$2da2d840$@gmail.com> Here they were ... http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3311/3214242023_ca5f2425a2_o.jpg Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben > Sent: 10 January 2017 06:50 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Contacting Jay West > > On 1/9/2017 3:13 PM, geneb wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > >> > >> No HP-2000 problem, just wasn't HP-2000 sure if I had sent it to the > >> right place HP-2000. > >> > > "Meet single HP-2000 in your area!" > > > > g. > > > > Where are the Female Computers? > Hal From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 10 07:03:33 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 08:03:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards Message-ID: <20170110130333.589B518C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert >>>> One assembler doc uses a prefix of "&o" > So the answer is, by modern expectations the old standard would be > ambiguous or misleading. Well, the ideas of 'assembler' and 'standard' don't really go together in my mind... :-) But seriously, I don't know how many different PDP-11 assemblers there were, but the two _main_ ones (DEC's, and Unix's) both use the same numeric convention (although they differed in other ways, probably because of the CTSS/Multics erase character convention): a sequence of digits is an octal number, unless there's a trailing '.', in which case it's decimal. (Well, technically, DEC had PAL-11 and MACRO-11, but PAL-11 was basically a subset of MACRO-11, and used the same number syntax.) I've never heard of that '&o' bizzaro-stuff - where did you find that? Noel From lars at nocrew.org Tue Jan 10 07:53:53 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 14:53:53 +0100 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards In-Reply-To: <20170110130333.589B518C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's message of "Tue, 10 Jan 2017 08:03:33 -0500 (EST)") References: <20170110130333.589B518C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <86fukraumm.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > Well, technically, DEC had PAL-11 and MACRO-11, but PAL-11 was > basically a subset of MACRO-11, and used the same number syntax.) I've been wondering about this! What's the difference between PAL-11 and MACRO-11? There's PAL III, PALX, PAL-D, PAL-8, PAL-10, and MACRO-8 for the PDP-8. What's up with all those?!? PALX is also the name for a cross assembler targeting PDP-11. From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Tue Jan 10 08:09:53 2017 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 14:09:53 +0000 Subject: Yugoslavian Computer Magazine Cover Girls of the 1980s and 1990s In-Reply-To: <007e01d26933$bcb039c0$5caf200a@user8459cef6fa> References: <20170106214724.GA4079@mooli.org.uk> , <007e01d26933$bcb039c0$5caf200a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: How about this cover from German computer magazine Computer Programmert Zur Unterhaltung? https://fi.pinterest.com/pin/274790014738894542/ ...looks like cover of German film, you know what kind of film... I would love to know why that photo. Is there article "How to kill your sex life with 64 kilobytes?" > Dr Legendre wrote: >I liked the one with the guy seated at a "desk" which is apparently >outfitted with nothing more than a color dot-matrix printer and a telephone >set. Must be a serious power-user, then.. Or he is typical 80s yuppie, he has no ****** clue about the computers (nor printers), he has reach state where he can sit behind the printer, get good pay checks and look girls in the office all day long. In the phone he is trying to get cocaine and supermodels to his mansion. What a great job he has! (...until stock market crashes...) >Peter Corlett wrote: >However, CRASH and Zzap!64 had some rather homoerotic covers instead, painted >by Oli Frey. Just the thing for confused teenage boys still too young to reach the >top shelf in the newsagent's. Probably become marked as a sexual minorty by buying the magazine wasn't only reason for death of the Zzap!64, bigger problem was at the 90s that you become marked as C64 user ;) [https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/600x315/3e/36/22/3e36226a0f13e528f155ad5be328377b.jpg] Pete Nelson on fi.pinterest.com ?Awesome German computer magazine cover from 1983? - Johannes Thelen Finland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Andrew Burton Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 11:27:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Yugoslavian Computer Magazine Cover Girls of the 1980s and 1990s On Fri, Jan 06, 2017 at 06:45:56PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > An image gallery of cheesy -- and cheese-cakey -- magazine covers from > what were for me the golden days. > But the UK mags weren't ever like this. Most weren't. I have an issue of one of the unofficial Mega Drive magazines from the early 90's which did have a hot picture of Madchen Amick inside the back cover. Regards, Andrew Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk www.aliensrcooluk.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 10 08:30:59 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 09:30:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards Message-ID: <20170110143059.734DA18C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff > What's the difference between PAL-11 and MACRO-11? Without going through the manuals at length, basically MACRO-11 supports macros, and PAL-11 doesn't. The syntax is otherwise very similar. > PALX is also the name for a cross assembler targeting PDP-11. I know it was used on ITS (although the PALX source had assembly options for all the main PDP-10 OS's, except TOPS-10), was that where it was written, do you happen to know? It's in MIDAS, so probably... Noel From rickb at bensene.com Tue Jan 10 08:49:46 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 06:49:46 -0800 Subject: Female Computer Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5FA@mail.bensene.com> Ben Wrote: > > Where are the Female Computers? > Hal >To which Dave W. replied: >Here they were ... >http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3311/3214242023_ca5f2425a2_o.jpg And, to this I say - BRILLIANT! These ladies were indeed called computers back in those days! -Rick From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 10 09:17:56 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 07:17:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Contacting Jay West In-Reply-To: <847606cd-4b80-20ca-be8a-0864b16ee4ec@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <60d53f.28f1b415.45a4f39a@aol.com> <008701d26a8a$bc14da40$343e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> <00d601d26a91$5e058d30$1a10a790$@ntlworld.com> <847606cd-4b80-20ca-be8a-0864b16ee4ec@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, ben wrote: > On 1/9/2017 3:13 PM, geneb wrote: >> On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> >>> >>> No HP-2000 problem, just wasn't HP-2000 sure if I had sent it to the >>> right >>> place HP-2000. >>> >> "Meet single HP-2000 in your area!" >> >> g. >> > > Where are the Female Computers? They're ALL female. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lars at nocrew.org Tue Jan 10 09:24:37 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:24:37 +0100 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards In-Reply-To: <20170110143059.734DA18C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's message of "Tue, 10 Jan 2017 09:30:59 -0500 (EST)") References: <20170110143059.734DA18C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <864m17aqfe.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > > What's the difference between PAL-11 and MACRO-11? > Without going through the manuals at length, basically MACRO-11 supports > macros, and PAL-11 doesn't. The syntax is otherwise very similar. So I wonder if this holds true in general, PAL are simpler assemblers without macros? > > PALX is also the name for a cross assembler targeting PDP-11. > I know it was used on ITS (although the PALX source had assembly > options for all the main PDP-10 OS's, except TOPS-10), was that where > it was written, do you happen to know? It's in MIDAS, so probably... http://www.saildart.org/PRUNE.DAT[1,3] says: PALX ... MIT'S PDP-11 ASSEMBLER From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 10 09:45:40 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:45:40 -0000 Subject: Contacting Jay West In-Reply-To: References: <60d53f.28f1b415.45a4f39a@aol.com> <008701d26a8a$bc14da40$343e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> <00d601d26a91$5e058d30$1a10a790$@ntlworld.com> <847606cd-4b80-20ca-be8a-0864b16ee4ec@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <017001d26b58$99071d00$cb155700$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb > Sent: 10 January 2017 15:18 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Contacting Jay West > > On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, ben wrote: > > > On 1/9/2017 3:13 PM, geneb wrote: > >> On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> No HP-2000 problem, just wasn't HP-2000 sure if I had sent it to the > >>> right place HP-2000. > >>> > >> "Meet single HP-2000 in your area!" > >> > >> g. > >> > > > > Where are the Female Computers? > > They're ALL female. :) > > g. My wife would agree, given the amount of attention I give to them. From phil at ultimate.com Tue Jan 10 10:37:44 2017 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 11:37:44 -0500 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards In-Reply-To: <20170110130333.589B518C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170110130333.589B518C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201701101637.v0AGbirW050525@ultimate.com> I've always assumed the P in PAL was for paper tape. The Wikipedia artile for PDP-8 says that PAL-8 assembled from paper tape into memory, so the A and L could have been for Assembler and Loader. ISTR PAL-11A was also an "absolute" assembler (did not output REL files), but there was also a PAL-11R. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 10 10:59:04 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 11:59:04 -0500 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards In-Reply-To: <201701101637.v0AGbirW050525@ultimate.com> References: <20170110130333.589B518C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201701101637.v0AGbirW050525@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <91A42EFB-E1DA-4F65-A50B-A040934156D7@comcast.net> > On Jan 10, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Phil Budne wrote: > > I've always assumed the P in PAL was for paper tape. > > The Wikipedia artile for PDP-8 says that PAL-8 assembled from paper > tape into memory, so the A and L could have been for Assembler and Loader. Could be. I took it to be PDP11 Assembly Language, but I'll admit that was just made up on the spot and I never saw a real explanation. > ISTR PAL-11A was also an "absolute" assembler (did not output REL > files), but there was also a PAL-11R. The PAL I remember was part of the Paper Tape Software package for the PDP-11. Two pass assembler, you actually had to feed it the source tape twice, if I remember the manual right. (I never had to use it for real.) There's also a non-Macro assembler for RT11 for systems with just 8k of memory. ASEMBL.SAV? It came with a separate macro processor called EXPAND, so you could assemble PDP-11 assembly code with macros, it just took more steps. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 10 11:02:21 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 12:02:21 -0500 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards In-Reply-To: <20170110130333.589B518C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170110130333.589B518C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 10, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Brent Hilpert > >>>>> One assembler doc uses a prefix of "&o" > >> So the answer is, by modern expectations the old standard would be >> ambiguous or misleading. > > Well, the ideas of 'assembler' and 'standard' don't really go together in my > mind... :-) > > But seriously, I don't know how many different PDP-11 assemblers there were, > but the two _main_ ones (DEC's, and Unix's) both use the same numeric > convention (although they differed in other ways, probably because of the > CTSS/Multics erase character convention): a sequence of digits is an octal > number, unless there's a trailing '.', in which case it's decimal. Is that the Unix assembler convention? It certainly isn't the one used by the GNU assemblers, which are modeled after the old Unix syntax. That one assumes decimal, and doesn't appreciate decimal points after a digit string. I wonder why DEC changed comment markers in their assemblers (from / in the PDP-8 to ; in the PDP-11). Yes, not using / frees it for use in expressions, but at least early on it wasn't supported there. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 10 11:21:01 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 12:21:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards Message-ID: <20170110172101.2779A18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Phil Budne > I've always assumed the P in PAL was for paper tape. > The Wikipedia artile for PDP-8 says that PAL-8 assembled from paper > tape into memory, so the A and L could have been for Assembler and > Loader. I have a number of different versions of the "PDP-11 Paper Tape Software" manual, and the earliest one (DEC-11-GGPB-D, March '71) turns out to be for PAL-11A, and it says it stands for "Program Assembly Language for the PDP-11's Absolute Assembler" (pg. 3-1). Amusing factoid: the manual says it takes about 45 minutes to re-assemble PAL-11A from the source tape, and punch a new binary tape (this is using the HSRP). > ISTR PAL-11A was also an "absolute" assembler (did not output REL > files), but there was also a PAL-11R. Yup. PAL-11A took an input an ASCII tape with the program, and produced as output "an absolute binary tape" (pg. 3-23). A later version of the 'Paper Tape Software' manual (DEC-11-ASDB-D, May '71) covers PAL11-R (although it does not, alas, decribe the relocatable output format in detail - although I think it's documented elsewhere), and also Link-11 and Libr-11. PAL11-R require DOS. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 10 11:27:12 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 12:27:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards Message-ID: <20170110172712.7BAB018C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Is that the Unix assembler convention? Yup. From "Unix Assembler Reference Manual" (by DMR; no date, but the one I'm looking at came with V6): "An octal constant consists of a sequence of digits ... A decimal constant consists of a sequence of digits terminated by a decimal point '.'." > It certainly isn't the one used by the GNU assemblers, which are modeled > after the old Unix syntax. Except when they gratuitously change things. Noel From lars at nocrew.org Tue Jan 10 12:11:10 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 19:11:10 +0100 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards In-Reply-To: <20170110172101.2779A18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's message of "Tue, 10 Jan 2017 12:21:01 -0500 (EST)") References: <20170110172101.2779A18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <86vatmaipt.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Phil Budne > > I've always assumed the P in PAL was for paper tape. > > The Wikipedia artile for PDP-8 says that PAL-8 assembled from paper > > tape into memory, so the A and L could have been for Assembler and > > Loader. > > I have a number of different versions of the "PDP-11 Paper Tape > Software" manual, and the earliest one (DEC-11-GGPB-D, March '71) > turns out to be for PAL-11A, and it says it stands for "Program > Assembly Language for the PDP-11's Absolute Assembler" (pg. 3-1). Someone with a talent for making lists (*cough*Phil*cough*) ought to compile a comprehensive table with all PAL and MACRO variants. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jan 10 13:16:33 2017 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:16:33 +0100 Subject: OT: Female Computer In-Reply-To: <0dce01d26b18$b9e0f2c0$2da2d840$@gmail.com> References: <0dce01d26b18$b9e0f2c0$2da2d840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2630d414-0b84-56e6-7974-18c24722283c@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 10.01.17 um 09:08 schrieb Dave Wade: > Here they were ... > > http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3311/3214242023_ca5f2425a2_o.jpg See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Computers -- tsch??, Jochen From wheagy at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 12:12:36 2017 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 13:12:36 -0500 Subject: Boot Loader for 3P+S on IMSAI Message-ID: Took a little digging but I found the thread where you were talking about port 20/21. I was able to configure the 3P+S card and run the test from the solivant site successfully, but I'm not able to upload basic. I have a couple more things to try, including setting a small upload delay as Bill suggests on his page. http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=318 However, I'm thinking that I may still have a configuration issue on the 3P+S card. But I think I'm getting close. Win -- >The manual pretty much has the exact config for that port 20 is all you >have to remember >Bill Degnan >twitter: billdeg >vintagecomputer.net >On Jan 6, 2017 7:41 PM, "Win Heagy" wrote: > I have an IMSAI that I am restoring. The basics appear to be working > (front panel, CPU and RAM cards). I have a Processor Tech, 3P+S card > that is next on the list for testing. I have the manual, but the card > was not configured for RS-232...not sure what it was configured for > but it doesn't match anything in the manual. I plan to reconfigure it > for RS-232. I'm trying to locate boot loader code for that board to > allow serial uploading of files from a PC to the IMSAI? I have boot > loader code for a 2SIO board on an Altair that I restored awhile back, > and would like to find something similar for the 3P+S. I want to be > able to toggle in a boot loader routine and then initiate an upload > from the PC to IMSAI -- something similar to this > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwC1T9oLK1U&t=212s > (at 1:10s in) but with a 3P+S board on an IMSAI. > > Also, a picture of your RS-232 configured card and wiring of the edge > connectors would be helpful to make sure I get things right. Any help > is appreciated. From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 12:26:50 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 13:26:50 -0500 Subject: Boot Loader for 3P+S on IMSAI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 1:12 PM, Win Heagy wrote: > Took a little digging but I found the thread where you were talking > about port 20/21. I was able to configure the 3P+S card and run the > test from the solivant site successfully, but I'm not able to upload > basic. I have a couple more things to try, including setting a small > upload delay as Bill suggests on his page. > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=318 > However, I'm thinking that I may still have a configuration issue on > the 3P+S card. But I think I'm getting close. > > Win > -- > > Did you verify "echo characters" works? There is a test program in the solivant site that explains this. If so, then you very well may need to experiment with character delays when you download BASIC. You can watch the lights and see when the various loaders load, that might help give you a clue where the failure point is. The extra pointers I added were things I found useful, but I was using the 2SIO card. b From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 12:30:12 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 13:30:12 -0500 Subject: Boot Loader for 3P+S on IMSAI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe this image is set to cause the 3P+S to act like a 2SIO card for BASIC. NOTE: It's set for a 20 mA current loop Teletype. You're not using a teletype, so ignore related jumpers (EIA vs. 20mA current loop)...the rest should be correct for what you're trying to do. b From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 12:30:19 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 13:30:19 -0500 Subject: Boot Loader for 3P+S on IMSAI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 1:30 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > I believe this image is set to cause the 3P+S to act like a 2SIO card for > BASIC. NOTE: It's set for a 20 mA current loop Teletype. You're not > using a teletype, so ignore related jumpers (EIA vs. 20mA current > loop)...the rest should be correct for what you're trying to do. > > b > > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=633 From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Jan 10 14:59:54 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:59:54 -0500 Subject: Compaq C series 2010c - aka series 2930a posters & Point of sale stuff needed Message-ID: <8c8918.62ce999a.45a6a54a@aol.com> Compaq C series 2010c - aka series 2930a posters & Point of sale stuff needed We were given one - apparently not used in box the tab for the what I assume is the config battery next to the main battery compartment never even had its white paper pull tab pulled out to stat the battery up. So anyway want to get other marketing stuff etc to help embellish a display at SMECC project. thanks ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 10 15:28:41 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 14:28:41 -0700 Subject: Female Computer In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5FA@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5FA@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <4e89f399-4ff6-2722-e161-8c067447712e@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/10/2017 7:49 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > Ben Wrote: >> >> Where are the Female Computers? >> Hal > >> To which Dave W. replied: >> Here they were ... > >> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3311/3214242023_ca5f2425a2_o.jpg > > And, to this I say - BRILLIANT! These ladies were indeed called > computers back in those days! > > -Rick Buy why so ummm Ancient? But any how, why are computers thought as male in general. Ben. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 10 15:43:53 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 21:43:53 +0000 Subject: Female Computer In-Reply-To: <4e89f399-4ff6-2722-e161-8c067447712e@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5FA@mail.bensene.com>, <4e89f399-4ff6-2722-e161-8c067447712e@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I've always kind of thought of computers as more like dogs. Gender is not a big issue with dogs ( except in special cases ). Like dogs, they are constantly needing retraining and feeding. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of ben Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 1:28:41 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Female Computer On 1/10/2017 7:49 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > Ben Wrote: >> >> Where are the Female Computers? >> Hal > >> To which Dave W. replied: >> Here they were ... > >> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3311/3214242023_ca5f2425a2_o.jpg > > And, to this I say - BRILLIANT! These ladies were indeed called > computers back in those days! > > -Rick Buy why so ummm Ancient? But any how, why are computers thought as male in general. Ben. From r3trohub at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 16:09:52 2017 From: r3trohub at gmail.com (Andy Cloud) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 22:09:52 +0000 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? Message-ID: Hi Everyone! I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! Looking forward to hearing your answers >_Andy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 10 16:29:03 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 22:29:03 +0000 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have Nicolet 1080. It is a 20 bit computer and has 12Kx20 core memory. To my knowledge, there are only 5 of these remaining in existence. Only 375 were said to have been made. Mine is mostly working but the last time I ran it, it had disk problems. I need to debug it. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Andy Cloud Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 2:09:52 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? Hi Everyone! I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! Looking forward to hearing your answers >_Andy From tmanos at concursive.com Tue Jan 10 16:31:28 2017 From: tmanos at concursive.com (Tom Manos) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 17:31:28 -0500 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? Message-ID: I just gave away my pride and joy: an AT&T 3B2 1000 in perfect condition with just about every accessory you could want and fully configured. It was a dual processor system, and fully maxed out with RAM and ports. It had an ethernet card and SCSI, I collected boards and documentation for many years and had a complete set of original docs, and many, many spares. I was downsizing and ended up giving it away to another denizen of the list along with a couple Sparc 20's and a bunch of other stuff. It completely filled up a rental SUV and traveled from Virginia to a state way out west. Many hundreds of pounds of stuff. It's happily running now. I miss it, but hopefully it's getting more use than I was giving it. On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 5:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: > Hi Everyone! > > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the > rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? > > For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! > > Looking forward to hearing your answers > >>_Andy From isking at uw.edu Tue Jan 10 17:26:30 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:26:30 -0800 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd have to say my VAX 6000-600. It has six processors, and therefore is alternatively known as the VAX 6660 - the Devil's VAX. :-) I've not been able to boot it because I don't have three-phase power to my house. However, I've been informed that the H405 can be rewired to run correctly off dryer power, which I do have. That's one of the (many) projects on my post-dissertation list. With six processors and a half-gigabyte of RAM, I've been told this is probably the most built-out VAX 6600 remaining. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 10 17:29:00 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:29:00 -0800 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> On 01/10/2017 02:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: > Hi Everyone! > > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - > What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? > > For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! > > Looking forward to hearing your answers That's a tough one. A 1401 core plane? Some CDC 6000 "cordwood" modules? Two Durango F85s, complete with 14" Shugart hard drive? Got a couple of boards that I don't even know the provenance of. PSU diodes and heatsink from a STAR 1B? Lotsa junk. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 10 17:29:55 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 12:29:55 +1300 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It would have to be the Polycorp Ploy 1, I obtained recently. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-10-9-poly-acquisition.htm http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-01-08-second-poly1-fix.htm This is a New Zealand designed and manufactured computer, and although I know of a museum display, and a couple of collectors that have one each in storage, There is one person in another city (Dunedin) who runs the Poly Archive site. I'm assuming he has a working one (or two). I suspect his (if it is working) and mine might be the only verified working ones in New Zealand, and possibly the world (some were sold to Australia and China). This Panasonic might not be common.. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-11-22-playing-with-a-panasonic-jd-850M.htm ..or this Telecom computerphone http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/computerphone.htm Regarding the unusual there is this:..the Lang Commander. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-12-11-1802-trainer.htm A kit made by a community college teacher. He ran night classes on computing and got students to build their own trainers. Terry (Tez) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 17:31:19 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 17:31:19 -0600 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e4c3c22-0b91-9637-852d-0fffb8f373cf@gmail.com> On 01/10/2017 04:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: > Hi Everyone! > > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the > rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? I don't know if it qualifies as computer-related or not, but I do have a Burroughs adding machine from January of 1905 - it's a little unusual because although it's a non-motorized machine, it has a very early variant of the stand/side-table (where the majority of the manual machines were intended for desktop use) I was mainly into micros (due to lack of space back in the day), so there's nothing really exciting in the electronic side of things, although: Likely < 20 survivors: Acorn System 1 (2-board 6502 machine ~1979) Acorn System 5 (backplane-based variant of above with various extra boards) Acorn Cambridge Workstation (6502/32016 dual CPU machine) Acorn/BBC Domesday system Torch Quad-X (VME-based m68k Unix machine) Research Machines 480Z (one of the first few made, with the metal case) And slightly more common items: Amiga 1000 (a few about, but far more likely to see an A500, 1200 etc.) Vectrex Osborne 1a Commodore +4 (a working one, I'm sure there are more dead ones around!) SGI Indigo2 (fully-loaded) SGI Origin 2200 Compaq Portable (a II and a '286) Research Machines 380Z I've possibly got the only surviving Cumana 68008 co-processor for a BBC micro, and also the only surviving Acorn 80286 co-processor for the same, but that probably only means something to folks who collect Acorn hardware :-) Oh, and for slightly unusual I do have an Apple II+ which was built in week 51 of 1982, which is a couple of weeks after the line was discontinued by Apple. It's a shame that nobody goes nuts for high serial numbers. cheers Jules From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jan 10 17:42:12 2017 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:42:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jan 2017, Andy Cloud wrote: > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the > rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? 64Kbit core plane from an AN/FSQ-7 (SAGE) computer: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/Coreplane-1L.jpg ...along with other Q7 parts: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From other at oryx.us Tue Jan 10 17:44:02 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 17:44:02 -0600 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, that must have taken a lot of will power to give that up. If I had it, I'm not sure I could have done that. It's none of my business, but......fingers crossed.....that your 3b2 stuff made it to Seth Morabito, the gentleman who is working on the 3b2 emulator project and is in need of hardware and documentation to continue. Jerry On 01/10/17 04:31 PM, Tom Manos wrote: > I just gave away my pride and joy: an AT&T 3B2 1000 in perfect > condition with just about every accessory you could want and fully > configured. It was a dual processor system, and fully maxed out with > RAM and ports. It had an ethernet card and SCSI, > > I collected boards and documentation for many years and had a complete > set of original docs, and many, many spares. > > I was downsizing and ended up giving it away to another denizen of the > list along with a couple Sparc 20's and a bunch of other stuff. It > completely filled up a rental SUV and traveled from Virginia to a > state way out west. Many hundreds of pounds of stuff. > > It's happily running now. > > I miss it, but hopefully it's getting more use than I was giving it. > > > On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 5:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: >> Hi Everyone! >> >> I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the >> rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? >> >> For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! >> >> Looking forward to hearing your answers >> >>> _Andy From pete at pski.net Tue Jan 10 17:55:17 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:55:17 -0500 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Probably my rarest setup is the Tandy 6000 HD with Xenix and working Bernoulli disk cartridge backup system. https://youtu.be/mM1IH8frd_U Pete > On Jan 10, 2017, at 5:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: > > Hi Everyone! > > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the > rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? > > For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! > > Looking forward to hearing your answers > >> _Andy From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 10 18:01:07 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:01:07 -0800 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Although not yet physically in my possession (I still have to ?pick it up? for large values of ?pick up?) my rarest/most unusual system is an IBM 4331 with all of it?s related peripherals. Specifically it includes: * IBM 4331 CPU with 1MB of RAM * 4 IBM 3340 drives (w 12 70MB winchester packs) * IBM 2821 control unit * IBM 1403N1 printer * IBM 2540 card reader/punch * IBM 3803 control unit * 2 IBM 3420 tape drives TTFN - Guy > On Jan 10, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: > > Hi Everyone! > > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the > rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? > > For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! > > Looking forward to hearing your answers > >> _Andy From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 18:20:24 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:20:24 -0600 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170111002024.GA66226@gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 10, 2017, Peter Cetinski wrote: > Probably my rarest setup is the Tandy 6000 HD with Xenix and working Bernoulli disk cartridge backup system. > > https://youtu.be/mM1IH8frd_U Nice video. That font looks an awful lot like the one in the 80-column Commodore PET/CBMs; I wonder if they both took the non-graphical parts of their character definitions from Motorola along with the 6545/6845 CRTC that they share. -- Eric Christopherson From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 18:31:10 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:31:10 -0600 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <20170111002024.GA66226@gmail.com> References: <20170111002024.GA66226@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170111003110.GB51332@gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 10, 2017, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Tue, Jan 10, 2017, Peter Cetinski wrote: > > Probably my rarest setup is the Tandy 6000 HD with Xenix and working Bernoulli disk cartridge backup system. > > > > https://youtu.be/mM1IH8frd_U > > Nice video. That font looks an awful lot like the one in the 80-column > Commodore PET/CBMs; I wonder if they both took the non-graphical parts > of their character definitions from Motorola along with the 6545/6845 > CRTC that they share. Hmm, not exactly the same, I see. The angle brackets are definitely different :) -- Eric Christopherson From steven at malikoff.com Tue Jan 10 19:02:36 2017 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:02:36 +1000 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3cce25633d7ba943e65f74308650390e.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Somewhere I have (misplaced) a BCROS card from a 360/50. Beautiful, intriguing thing... haven't seen it in years unfortunately. Also a pair of earrings made from two IBM 1403 chain printer type slugs my dad made for my mother many decades ago, long before 'retro tech jewellery' became a thing. An australian S-100 prototype board for the SC/MP CPU, rescued from the rubbish bin at Applied Technology (who later made the MicroBee) as it was a failed PCB etching. Steve. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Jan 10 19:33:32 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:33:32 -0500 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? Message-ID: <918eba.3b8c7da7.45a6e56c@aol.com> DIGITAL TRAINERS TUBE TYPE - IBM Digital trainer - uses the earliest of IBM plug in tube things that were in their commercial systytems http://www.smecc.org/video/logic_5.gif IF ANYONE CAN SHED LIGHT ON THIS IT WOULD BE FANTASTIC! SOLID STATE - DEC COMPUTER LAB with the pdp-8 I toggles... not RARE but is cool! RELAY - - MINIVAC 601 COMPUTERS for tube computer - - our sage stuff also. for solid state - some of our GE Erma material. for mechanical analog computer -- some kid of weird thing with gears shafts , bellows and I think this weird thing runs off compressed air. details pending for electronic analog computer - Syston Donner with Tubes in it not that RARE but we are proud of it! for calculators - W.W. Salisbury's HP 35 that he used for Spiral Fusion Calculations ACTIVE DEVICES Tubes- - single Plate early Deforest Spherical Audion Transistors - - experimental and Pre-production prototypes ALL Bell Transistors DIGITAL TRAINERS IBM Digital trainer - uses the earliest of IBM plug in tube things that were in their commercial systems http://www.smecc.org/video/logic_5.gif IF ANYONE CAN SHED LIGHT ON THIS IT WOULD BE FANTASTIC! Comes in a fitted wood case with lots of plugable modules with tubes and other parts. But we love all the stuff! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 1/10/2017 4:42:21 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us writes: On Tue, 10 Jan 2017, Andy Cloud wrote: > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the > rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? 64Kbit core plane from an AN/FSQ-7 (SAGE) computer: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/Coreplane-1L.jpg ...along with other Q7 parts: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Jan 10 19:35:32 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:35:32 -0500 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? Message-ID: <91951e.2c8c0ff0.45a6e5e4@aol.com> That is amazing Ian ! - Photo? Wonder what the ticket was for that back in its new day... Ed# In a message dated 1/10/2017 4:27:44 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, isking at uw.edu writes: I'd have to say my VAX 6000-600. It has six processors, and therefore is alternatively known as the VAX 6660 - the Devil's VAX. :-) I've not been able to boot it because I don't have three-phase power to my house. However, I've been informed that the H405 can be rewired to run correctly off dryer power, which I do have. That's one of the (many) projects on my post-dissertation list. With six processors and a half-gigabyte of RAM, I've been told this is probably the most built-out VAX 6600 remaining. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From ben at bensinclair.com Tue Jan 10 19:46:02 2017 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 19:46:02 -0600 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the > rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? > My rarest item is probably an IBM System/360 nameplate, the type that was attached on top of a console. It hangs above the window in my office and is one of my favorite items. This isn't too rare, but I also really a Woz signed Apple I schematic that I have framed on the wall. -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Jan 10 20:06:16 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:06:16 -0800 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2017-Jan-10, at 2:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: > Hi Everyone! > > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the > rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? > > For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! > > Looking forward to hearing your answers How about this Tyrotek analog computer, ca. 1968. Tyrotek was a small garage startup company, this is one of 6 made. The people that made it eventually found my web page and provided some history: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/tyrotek/index.html Everybody loves plugboards. From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 10 20:47:34 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:47:34 -0600 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> References: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> Message-ID: <64CAFA10-F617-41BA-B92C-8A866248CFD4@pobox.com> On January 10, 2017 5:29:00 PM CST, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 01/10/2017 02:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: >> Hi Everyone! >> >> I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - >> What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? >> >> For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! >> >> Looking forward to hearing your answers > >That's a tough one. A 1401 core plane? Some CDC 6000 "cordwood" >modules? Two Durango F85s, complete with 14" Shugart hard drive? > >Got a couple of boards that I don't even know the provenance of. > >PSU diodes and heatsink from a STAR 1B? > >Lotsa junk. > >--Chuck ETA-10 CPU board? The star off the front of one of those STAR machines Two mag tapes from Univac I. They are 8" dia, steel and weigh about 8 lbs each ;-) IBM 5100? Two i4040 engineering samples (that work)? cje -- Chris Elmquist From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 10 21:00:13 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 03:00:13 +0000 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <64CAFA10-F617-41BA-B92C-8A866248CFD4@pobox.com> References: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com>, <64CAFA10-F617-41BA-B92C-8A866248CFD4@pobox.com> Message-ID: You reminded me of two other interesting things: One is an early development system for the I4004. Includes a SIM4-01, MB-410 and MP7-03. I've actually written some code for it. Blowing 1702As by the serial 110 baud is about 7 minutes. I wrote code to do a standalone copy of another EPROM that runs in 2 minutes. That of course is I4004 code. I also have a NC4000 Forth computer that I've connected a 5Meg had drive to and two 360K floppy drives. I used parts from old XT computers, found at surplus shops. I am able to recompile the entire Forth operating system in less than 15 seconds with the old MFM hard drive as source. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chris Elmquist Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 6:47:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Chuck Guzis Subject: Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? On January 10, 2017 5:29:00 PM CST, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 01/10/2017 02:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: >> Hi Everyone! >> >> I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - >> What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? >> >> For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! >> >> Looking forward to hearing your answers > >That's a tough one. A 1401 core plane? Some CDC 6000 "cordwood" >modules? Two Durango F85s, complete with 14" Shugart hard drive? > >Got a couple of boards that I don't even know the provenance of. > >PSU diodes and heatsink from a STAR 1B? > >Lotsa junk. > >--Chuck ETA-10 CPU board? The star off the front of one of those STAR machines Two mag tapes from Univac I. They are 8" dia, steel and weigh about 8 lbs each ;-) IBM 5100? Two i4040 engineering samples (that work)? cje -- Chris Elmquist From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 21:22:59 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 22:22:59 -0500 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <64CAFA10-F617-41BA-B92C-8A866248CFD4@pobox.com> References: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> <64CAFA10-F617-41BA-B92C-8A866248CFD4@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2017 9:49 PM, "Chris Elmquist" wrote: > > On January 10, 2017 5:29:00 PM CST, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >On 01/10/2017 02:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: > >> Hi Everyone! > >> > >> I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - > >> What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? > >> > >> For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! The California Technologies International 1008-A http://www.vintagecomputer.net/CTI/1008-A/ Z80, stringy floppy storage, some sort of computerized screen graphics system. Looking for the manual for 15 years... Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 21:36:16 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 19:36:16 -0800 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> References: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> Message-ID: <105dc182-cdee-4ee0-fda3-36a89c79d1cb@gmail.com> On 1/10/17 3:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/10/2017 02:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: >> Hi Everyone! >> >> I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - >> What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? >> >> For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! >> >> Looking forward to hearing your answers > That's a tough one. A 1401 core plane? Some CDC 6000 "cordwood" > modules? Two Durango F85s, complete with 14" Shugart hard drive? > > Got a couple of boards that I don't even know the provenance of. > > PSU diodes and heatsink from a STAR 1B? > > Lotsa junk. > > --Chuck > > > > . > For me: - AMT DAP 610 (64x64 array processor, probably only a few hundred made) - Imlac PDS-1D (early graphical terminal/computer, 1971) - PERQ-1A (early graphical workstation, bitslice CPU, goodness all around) - RGS 008 micro (8008 kit from 1974-1975 with switches and blinkenlights) - Josh From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 21:40:37 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 21:40:37 -0600 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <64CAFA10-F617-41BA-B92C-8A866248CFD4@pobox.com> References: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> <64CAFA10-F617-41BA-B92C-8A866248CFD4@pobox.com> Message-ID: Off the top of my head, here's a whimsical little oddball - the Passez-Sonna Floppy Clock: http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/modern-floppy-disc-clock-passez-sonna-430407608 Mine has a red, white & blue 'stars & stripes' (US flag) motif printed on it, but is otherwise identical. It's the only one of its type I have ever seen.. On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 8:47 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On January 10, 2017 5:29:00 PM CST, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >On 01/10/2017 02:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: > >> Hi Everyone! > >> > >> I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - > >> What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? > >> > >> For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! > >> > >> Looking forward to hearing your answers > > > >That's a tough one. A 1401 core plane? Some CDC 6000 "cordwood" > >modules? Two Durango F85s, complete with 14" Shugart hard drive? > > > >Got a couple of boards that I don't even know the provenance of. > > > >PSU diodes and heatsink from a STAR 1B? > > > >Lotsa junk. > > > >--Chuck > > ETA-10 CPU board? > > The star off the front of one of those STAR machines > > Two mag tapes from Univac I. They are 8" dia, steel and weigh about 8 lbs > each ;-) > > IBM 5100? > > Two i4040 engineering samples (that work)? > > cje > > > > > -- > Chris Elmquist > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 10 21:46:46 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 21:46:46 -0600 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5875AAA6.7040405@pico-systems.com> On 01/10/2017 04:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: > Hi Everyone! > > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the > rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? > > For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! > > Looking forward to hearing your answers > > I have a Honeywell Alert. It is a 24-bit aircraft computer that was originally designed for the X-15 project. It was the 2nd "mass-produced" computer in the US to use ICs. The first was the Apollo Guidance Computer. Although the AGC started their project a year or so earlier, the Honeywell Alert was deployed first, as it was a much smaller project. The X-15 application was to compute energy available (velocity plus altitude) so the pilot would arrive back at the Edwards runway at the right height and velocity to make a landing. The CPU still works, as far as I have been able to test it (without working memory). I do have a wrecked memory unit which still has 3 unassaulted memory modules, but absolutely no docs on that. I have jammed constant instructions into the memory IN bus and observed the instruction counter. It draws 25 A at 5 V DC. It has no connectors inside, all 6 boards are connected to the backplane by flexible printed cables. They thought the connectors would be subject to flaky contact, but then the thing has a whole BUNCH of D-25 and D-50 connectors on the front, to connect to I/O devices, memory and power. ----------- I have an A/D converter that was from an air pollution study done in 1974-1975, and was connected to a PDP-8. That ADC now acquires environmental data in my house. Not sure how long it will keep on running. ----------- I had a large disc drive from a non-computer accounting machine, called a Mohawk Data Sciences Mem-O-Ree. The disc is about 4 feet diameter, and ran at 1200 RPM. The unit I had had 64 fixed head tracks on it, I think it could go up to 256 tracks. The disc was attached to a thing that looked like a desk calculator. Maybe there was a bigger logic box somewhere that supported it. I saw the desktop part in a surplus store, but never saw the whole system. I think those are the more unusual bits in my collection. I built a 32-bit bit slice CPU in about 1982, but eventually put it aside, as the amount of work to bring it to a full computer system was going to be enormous. I/O devices, microcode, OS, compilers, and on and on. If I'd known at the time that Unix 360 existed, that might have changed my plans. Then, I cloned a system that used the National Semi 32016 chip, and used that for a while. Yes, I was in the world of 32/16 bit computing, but it was GLACIALLY slow. But, it did get me to learn my way around Unix. Then, I managed to get a MicroVAX-II system, and ran that for 21 years, from 1986 to 2007. I did eventually move away from the VAX but kept it running for the home environment monitoring. In 2007 I moved that last app to a PC running Linux. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 10 21:50:14 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 21:50:14 -0600 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> References: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5875AB76.4020507@pico-systems.com> OK, I have some TINY core planes out of a Honeywell system. One unit was a tape drive, the other a line printer. These were hooked together to make an off-line print despooler. I got it working enough to analyze the signals, and then wrote a driver and built an interface to my S-100 Z-80 system. So, I had a 300 LPM drum printer on an S-100 system. All I have left of it is the core plane cards and a few other bits. I also have a PDP-8 core plane. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 10 21:55:01 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 21:55:01 -0600 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5875AC95.60802@pico-systems.com> On 01/10/2017 06:01 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > Although not yet physically in my possession (I still have to ?pick it up? for large values of ?pick up?) my rarest/most unusual system is an IBM 4331 with all of it?s related peripherals. Specifically it includes: > * IBM 4331 CPU with 1MB of RAM > * 4 IBM 3340 drives (w 12 70MB winchester packs) > * IBM 2821 control unit > * IBM 1403N1 printer > * IBM 2540 card reader/punch > * IBM 3803 control unit > * 2 IBM 3420 tape drives > > Holy moly! I had no idea any of that vintage of stuff was still in circulation. The 2821 is really chunks of 1401 parts repurposed into a 360 unit record controller. Germanium transistors on SMS cards! Hope you have strong floors! Jon From ethan at 757.org Tue Jan 10 22:07:34 2017 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 23:07:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cray J932SE Original paper copies of Dvorak newsletters and software catalogs that came with my IMSAI 8080. Prices for Microsoft BASIC and all that. I'd imagine the paperwork is more rare than the system. There are color brochures for some other systems like vectorgraph as well. I should check to make sure they exist in scanned format in the wild. Apple IIGS that Wozniak autographed for me when he visited Virginia Beach. Yamaha C1 286-12 midi laptop. It doesn't work and most others I find are same situation. But more rare than the computer is I found a print copy of the service manual that even Yamaha doesn't have. It came with documentation that wasn't in the wild, so I set it free and it should answer questions for others. Would like to get hold of working unit eprom dumps. -- Ethan O'Toole From gtoal at gtoal.com Tue Jan 10 22:16:53 2017 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 22:16:53 -0600 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have an Acorn Prophet - a machine that no-one I've met seems to even know ever existed. It's a re-badged or re-worked Acorn Atom targetted at the commercial market. ("Profit", geddit?) I don't know if they were ever sold. I was gven it during one of Acorn's regular junk clearings when I worked there. Graham PS I see someone mentioned a 3B2. I had one of those too, I remember it specifically because it was the first computer I ever wrote a magazine article about that was published - I published it under a pseudonym which I've now forgotten so I doubt I'll ever see that review again. It was a UK PC magazine. Probably "PC Magazine" or something similar. On 1/10/17, Andy Cloud wrote: > Hi Everyone! > > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the > rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? > > For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! > > Looking forward to hearing your answers > >>_Andy > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 10 15:52:33 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 21:52:33 +0000 Subject: Boot Loader for 3P+S on IMSAI In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: When I first got my IMSAI, I had not documents. Many of the jumpers were missing so I had to improvise. I had to write my own console in so I chose a bit for the input buffer ready. Of course, it was a different bit than every one else uses. I run CP/M on it so my disgrace is berried in the low level code. I've been meaning to patch it but then I'd have to modify all my boot disk. I guess, as long as it continues to work fine, what the heck. Maybe adding a second jumper on is the trick. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of william degnan Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 10:30:19 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Boot Loader for 3P+S on IMSAI On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 1:30 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > I believe this image is set to cause the 3P+S to act like a 2SIO card for > BASIC. NOTE: It's set for a 20 mA current loop Teletype. You're not > using a teletype, so ignore related jumpers (EIA vs. 20mA current > loop)...the rest should be correct for what you're trying to do. > > b > > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=633 From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Jan 10 20:50:35 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 21:50:35 -0500 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/10/2017 05:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: > Hi Everyone! > > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the > rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? > > For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! > > Looking forward to hearing your answers > >> _Andy I have two Altair and early 8800 I built, the second is a 8800BT with drives. Another is a IMSAI 8035 control computer. For really rare, DEC Advice 78032 in circuit development tool (aka MicroVax!). Technico Superstarter system Ti9900 cpu. The rest are or were fairly common by some standard. Allison From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Jan 10 23:58:32 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 21:58:32 -0800 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <5875AB76.4020507@pico-systems.com> References: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> <5875AB76.4020507@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <019f01d26bcf$cc591c40$650b54c0$@bettercomputing.net> I don't know how rare some of these are but I'm told they are: 1) Original Mark-8 board set. (Think there are less than 20 Mark-8s/board sets out there currently) 2) Tektronix 6800 Board Bucket (probably even less than above?) 3) Digital Group Z80 and 8080 systems + 2 cassette Phideck 4) Videobrain Family Computer Am envying the Altair guys though. I want one but they always come up at just the wrong time. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 11 01:24:46 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 23:24:46 -0800 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <019f01d26bcf$cc591c40$650b54c0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> <5875AB76.4020507@pico-systems.com> <019f01d26bcf$cc591c40$650b54c0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <9052bc1b-3611-3280-3d57-b5d53834f645@sydex.com> On 01/10/2017 09:58 PM, Brad H wrote: > Am envying the Altair guys though. I want one but they always come > up at just the wrong time. I've still got the 8800 I built (with all those crappy white stranded wires) back in the day. It's not that great, trust me. I moved to an IMSAI box and finally to an Integrand box. Don't have the IMSAI any longer, but still have the Integrand. Haven't powered any of them up in 30 years. One tends to forget about such stuff. --Chuck From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Wed Jan 11 01:37:05 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 23:37:05 -0800 Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?Re:_What's_the_rarest_or_most_unusu?= =?US-ASCII?Q?al_computer-related_item_do_you=0D__own=3F?= Message-ID: -------- Original message -------- From: Chuck Guzis Date: 2017-01-10 11:24 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you   own? On 01/10/2017 09:58 PM, Brad H wrote: > Am envying the Altair guys though.? I want one but they always come > up at just the wrong time. I've still got the 8800 I built (with all those crappy white stranded wires) back in the day.? It's not that great, trust me. I moved to an IMSAI box and finally to an Integrand box.? Don't have the IMSAI any longer, but still have the Integrand. Haven't powered any of them up in 30 years.?? One tends to forget about >such stuff. >--Chuck For me it'd be purely about the history. ? ?Gates and Allen writing the interpreter without an actual Altair to work on. Allen writing the bootstrap on the plane he took to pitch to MITS. ?Gates' first written tirade about piracy. ? An Altair isn't out of my reach.. just.. other stuff (like the Mark-8 boards) keeps coming up just as I've stored enough money to buy one. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 01:39:57 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 01:39:57 -0600 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <019f01d26bcf$cc591c40$650b54c0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> <5875AB76.4020507@pico-systems.com> <019f01d26bcf$cc591c40$650b54c0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: only surviving model of a phillips p1000 On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 11:58 PM, Brad H < vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net> wrote: > I don't know how rare some of these are but I'm told they are: > > 1) Original Mark-8 board set. (Think there are less than 20 Mark-8s/board > sets out there currently) > 2) Tektronix 6800 Board Bucket (probably even less than above?) > 3) Digital Group Z80 and 8080 systems + 2 cassette Phideck > 4) Videobrain Family Computer > > Am envying the Altair guys though. I want one but they always come up at > just the wrong time. > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Wed Jan 11 01:42:58 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 23:42:58 -0800 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2017-Jan-10, at 11:37 PM, Brad H wrote: > -------- Original message -------- > From: Chuck Guzis > Date: 2017-01-10 11:24 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you >   own? > > On 01/10/2017 09:58 PM, Brad H wrote: > >> Am envying the Altair guys though. I want one but they always come >> up at just the wrong time. > > I've still got the 8800 I built (with all those crappy white stranded > wires) back in the day. It's not that great, trust me. > > I moved to an IMSAI box and finally to an Integrand box. Don't have the > IMSAI any longer, but still have the Integrand. > > Haven't powered any of them up in 30 years. One tends to forget about >> such stuff. > >> --Chuck > > For me it'd be purely about the history. Gates and Allen writing the interpreter without an actual Altair to work on. Allen writing the bootstrap on the plane he took to pitch to MITS. Gates' first written tirade about piracy. > An Altair isn't out of my reach.. just.. other stuff (like the Mark-8 boards) keeps coming up just as I've stored enough money to buy one. In the vein of arcania, somewhere I have an original copy of the Altair newsletter with the letter from Bill about software pirating. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 02:05:42 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 03:05:42 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have docs for a Ventel brand MD212-plus modem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: (Boosting the signal - look at the date on the original request...) > A friend of mine just returned a modem he got from me decades ago, a > Ventel MD212-plus. It's an early-1980s non-AT-command-set > autodialling modem. The settings are adjusted via a pair of 10-pin > DIP switches accessible from the back. I've checked the web and > bitsavers. So far, all I've found is some old Usenet articles and a > couple of pictures, but no manual or jumper guide. So another friend gave me a Ven-Tel MD212-plus last year. I am still unable to cough up any docs online with the exception of the purpose of switch H1 - it's the pulse-dial/tone-dial switch. The other 19 switches remain mysterious. I have done a bit of circuit tracing of the main connectors (DB25 for EIA comms, DA15 for phone line/possibly diagnostics) and the jumper positions on the mainboard (3 boards inside - top one analog, middle one MCU and support chips and a lot of CMOS, bottom one PSU+NVRAM battery+more analog). Most of the important serial settings are done on the dip switches. The MCU program has an interactive menu system for adding numbers to the onboard NVRAM (appears to be an RCA5101 256x4 CMOS SRAM kept alive with a CR2430 lithium coin cell) and dialing from the NVRAM or interactively. This was a great modem for sticking on a VT100 and interactively dialing into work. It was not a great modem for UUCP because it had a screwy menu system with timings that were expecting a human poking keys not software blasting out commands. Front View: http://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net/images/2/8/ven-tel-md212-modem-300-1200-baud-bit-sec-2d7bf0f0836905c5e385b6d79336b4af.jpg Rear View: http://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net/images/7/0/ven-tel-md212-modem-300-1200-baud-bit-sec-f07e2ac87ebe5c016ad9468594fa4e97.jpg Front Panel LEDs: MB | TR | MR | SD | RD | HS | MC | TM Front Panel pushbutton switches: AL | ST | RDL | DL | HS ISTR HS is the 300 baud/1200 baud switch. RDL and DL should be loopback test buttons. AL could be analog loopback. Don't recall off the top of my head what ST might be. There is very little technical detail online about this modem. The vast majority of hits are people asking for a manual or jumper settings. I may have some documentation on an ancient backup tape from the 80s but nothing has surfaced in the past 5 years. Sadly, I have misplaced the one DA15->4p4c phone cable I had. No idea what sort of internal connections/passive components may have been on the DA15 plug but one presumes that the red and green wires from the modular jack went into 2 of the pins on the DA15. Tracing out the entire DA15 revealed some curious stuff, including that very few of the pins were no-connects. If anyone happens to have a cache of 1980s modem docs, perhaps something will surface. Internally, here's what I found after an hour of poking around: F10 - 10-pin DIP switch F1 ? F2 ? F3 ? F4 ? F5 ? F6 ? F7 ? F8 ? F9 ? F10 ? H10 - 10-pin DIP switch H1 Pulse Dial (up) / Tone Dial (down) H2 ? H3 ? H4 ? H5 ? H6 ? H7 ? H8 ? H9 ? H10 ? J1 DB25 1 Protective Gnd (JP5) 2 RxD 3 TxD 4 CTS 5 RTS 6 DSR 7 Signal Gnd 8 DCD 9 Data set testing? 10 Data set testing? 11 NC 12 SDCD (JP1) 13 SRTS (NC) -- 14 STxD (NC) 15 DB/TCLK (sync transmit clk) 16 SRxD (NC) 17 DD/RCLK (sync receive clk) 18 LL (NC) 19 SCTS (NC) 20 DTR 21 RL/SQ (NC) 22 RI 23 CH/CI? 24 DA/ACLK? 25 TM? J2 - DA15 1 NC 2 NC 3 J3 pin 26 4 J3 pin 25 5 to F10 DIP SW ? 6 Gnd 7 J3 pin 20 ? (to be verified) 8 J3 pin 18 ? (to be verified) - 9 J3 pin 5 10 +5 / VCC ? (to be verified) 11 J3 pin 15 Vee / -12V 12 NC 13 NC 14 JP4 pin 3 (open) 15 JP3 pin 3 ? (open) J3 26-pin 0.1" header between digital/MCU board and PSU board [ When I used to use these modems on a daily basis, we never opened them up and fiddled with these jumpers, but I'm including my findings for completeness ] JP1 3-pin with jumper on 1-2 1 B9 pin 6 (1488) 2 J1 pin 12 (DB25 connector) SDCD 3 NC JP2 3-pin with jumper on 1-2 1 1489 @ C9 pin 1 2 DB25 pin ? 3 1489 @ C9 pin 10 JP3 3-pin, no header installed, pin 1-2 jumper on PCB 1 J3 pin 12 2 J3 pin 12 3 J2 pin 15 ? (to be verified) JP4 3-pin, no header installed, pin 1-2 jumper on PCB 1 J3 pin 11 2 J3 pin 11 3 J2 pin 14 (DA15 connector) JP5 2-pin, header and jumper installed 1 GND 2 J1 pin 1 (DB25 connector) JP6 3-pin, no header installed, pin 1-2 jumper on PCB 1 +5V/Vcc 2 ? - via under 8039 MCU @ F/H 4 3 Gnd JP7 3-pin, no header installed, open 1 Gnd 2 P8243 MCS48 I/O expander @ H 7/8 pin 1 (P50) with pullup to Vcc 3 NC JP8 2-pin, no header installed, open 1 ? with pullup to Vcc 2 Gnd JP9 2-pin, no header installed, open 1 ? with pullup to Vcc 2 Gnd JP10 2-pin, no header installed, open 1 ? with pullup to Vcc 2 Gnd From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jan 11 02:10:12 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:10:12 +0000 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/01/2017 04:16, "Graham Toal" wrote: > I have an Acorn Prophet - a machine that no-one I've met seems to even > know ever existed. It's a re-badged or re-worked Acorn Atom targetted > at the commercial market. ("Profit", geddit?) > > I don't know if they were ever sold. I was gven it during one of > Acorn's regular junk clearings when I worked there. > I've heard of it and even have a picture of one. Many years ago I was chatting to Graham Priestley who used to repair Atom kits for Acorn in his bedroom before moving on to Cambridge Systems Technology to help with their 'Thor' line of Sinclair QL-based workstations - heavy and well built machines. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 02:11:40 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 01:11:40 -0700 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 12:37 AM, Brad H < vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net> wrote: > For me it'd be purely about the history. Gates and Allen writing the > interpreter without an actual Altair to work on. > I don't have an Altair, but I have a computer of the type that Gates and Allen used for that early development. :-) I don't have it running, though. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 11 01:54:54 2017 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 23:54:54 -0800 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards Message-ID: <3240AB14-5521-43A1-B440-69E19E992122@cs.ubc.ca> On 2017-Jan-10, at 5:03 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert >>>>> One assembler doc uses a prefix of "&o" >> >> So the answer is, by modern expectations the old standard would be >> ambiguous or misleading. > > Well, the ideas of 'assembler' and 'standard' don't really go together in my > mind... :-) > > But seriously, I don't know how many different PDP-11 assemblers there were, > but the two _main_ ones (DEC's, and Unix's) both use the same numeric > convention (although they differed in other ways, probably because of the > CTSS/Multics erase character convention): a sequence of digits is an octal > number, unless there's a trailing '.', in which case it's decimal. > > (Well, technically, DEC had PAL-11 and MACRO-11, but PAL-11 was basically a > subset of MACRO-11, and used the same number syntax.) > > I've never heard of that '&o' bizzaro-stuff - where did you find that? > > Noel This one: http://mdfs.net/Software/PDP11/Assembler/AsmPDP.txt Reading more closely, the encoding has some relation back to BBC BASIC. I was beginning to wonder if it was some html character-encoding screwup. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 11 01:57:54 2017 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 23:57:54 -0800 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards Message-ID: <619B145E-B351-4EBC-AD2D-1048298D5E9F@cs.ubc.ca> On 2017-Jan-10, at 5:03 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert >>>>> One assembler doc uses a prefix of "&o" >> >> So the answer is, by modern expectations the old standard would be >> ambiguous or misleading. > > Well, the ideas of 'assembler' and 'standard' don't really go together in my > mind... :-) > > But seriously, I don't know how many different PDP-11 assemblers there were, > but the two _main_ ones (DEC's, and Unix's) both use the same numeric > convention (although they differed in other ways, probably because of the > CTSS/Multics erase character convention): a sequence of digits is an octal > number, unless there's a trailing '.', in which case it's decimal. > > (Well, technically, DEC had PAL-11 and MACRO-11, but PAL-11 was basically a > subset of MACRO-11, and used the same number syntax.) > > I've never heard of that '&o' bizzaro-stuff - where did you find that? > > Noel This one: http://mdfs.net/Software/PDP11/Assembler/AsmPDP.txt Reading more closely, the encoding has some relation back to BBC BASIC. I was beginning to wonder if it was some html character-encoding screwup. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 11 01:59:34 2017 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 23:59:34 -0800 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards Message-ID: On 2017-Jan-10, at 5:03 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert >>>>> One assembler doc uses a prefix of "&o" >> >> So the answer is, by modern expectations the old standard would be >> ambiguous or misleading. > > Well, the ideas of 'assembler' and 'standard' don't really go together in my > mind... :-) > > But seriously, I don't know how many different PDP-11 assemblers there were, > but the two _main_ ones (DEC's, and Unix's) both use the same numeric > convention (although they differed in other ways, probably because of the > CTSS/Multics erase character convention): a sequence of digits is an octal > number, unless there's a trailing '.', in which case it's decimal. > > (Well, technically, DEC had PAL-11 and MACRO-11, but PAL-11 was basically a > subset of MACRO-11, and used the same number syntax.) > > I've never heard of that '&o' bizzaro-stuff - where did you find that? > > Noel This one: http://mdfs.net/Software/PDP11/Assembler/AsmPDP.txt Reading more closely, the encoding has some relation back to BBC BASIC. I was beginning to wonder if it was some html character-encoding screwup. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 11 02:02:11 2017 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 00:02:11 -0800 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards Message-ID: <745B9D00-7A98-4492-8E8F-5BCB615E8C4C@cs.ubc.ca> > I've never heard of that '&o' bizzaro-stuff - where did you find that? This one: http://mdfs.net/Software/PDP11/Assembler/AsmPDP.txt Reading more closely, the encoding has some relation back to BBC BASIC. I was beginning to wonder if it was some html character-encoding screwup. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 11 02:03:40 2017 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 00:03:40 -0800 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards Message-ID: <7385A6CB-0296-41F3-BCC2-35A0B3952B5D@cs.ubc.ca> > I've never heard of that '&o' bizzaro-stuff - where did you find that? This one: http://mdfs.net/Software/PDP11/Assembler/AsmPDP.txt Reading more closely, the encoding has some relation back to BBC BASIC. I was beginning to wonder if it was some html character-encoding screwup. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 11 02:04:23 2017 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 00:04:23 -0800 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards Message-ID: > I've never heard of that '&o' bizzaro-stuff - where did you find that? This one: http://mdfs.net/Software/PDP11/Assembler/AsmPDP.txt Reading more closely, the encoding has some relation back to BBC BASIC. I was beginning to wonder if it was some html character-encoding screwup. From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jan 11 05:14:20 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 06:14:20 -0500 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/10/2017 09:50 PM, allison wrote: > On 01/10/2017 05:09 PM, Andy Cloud wrote: >> Hi Everyone! >> >> I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the >> rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? >> >> For me, personally, I have a Altair 8800! >> >> Looking forward to hearing your answers >> >>> _Andy > I have two Altair and early 8800 I built, the second is a 8800BT with > drives. > > Another is a IMSAI 8035 control computer. > > For really rare, DEC Advice 78032 in circuit development tool (aka > MicroVax!). > > Technico Superstarter system Ti9900 cpu. > > The rest are or were fairly common by some standard. > > > Allison > I did leave a few oddities off that are not complete and functional systems. One being a SyQuest parallel-port 270MB cartridge disk drive (3.5") which is functional along with 13 cartridges(SQ327) . I can still use it out of the case as its IDE. Core plane from a Sperry computer. The specifics was I tried to buy whole the computer when Grumman Plant 33 was closed. The memory was already parted out. Plant 33 was one of the plants where the LM (lunar module) was made. Yes, Sperry made computers and no, data, or even evidence of it is non-existent. Allison From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 11 05:31:09 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:31:09 +0000 Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards In-Reply-To: <745B9D00-7A98-4492-8E8F-5BCB615E8C4C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <745B9D00-7A98-4492-8E8F-5BCB615E8C4C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <224e8694-639b-eb79-df4d-3580d2dcbef8@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/01/2017 08:02, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> I've never heard of that '&o' bizzaro-stuff - where did you find that? > > This one: > http://mdfs.net/Software/PDP11/Assembler/AsmPDP.txt > > Reading more closely, the encoding has some relation back to BBC BASIC. Yes, that syntax (&, &o, %) has nothing at all to do with DEC, and everything to do with how BBC BASIC works. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From erik at baigar.de Wed Jan 11 06:58:45 2017 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 13:58:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <5875AAA6.7040405@pico-systems.com> References: <5875AAA6.7040405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Hi Jon, thanks for your mail - the Alert looks interesting (I also collect such vintage Ex-MIL gear). > I have a Honeywell Alert. It is a 24-bit aircraft computer that was > originally designed for the X-15 project. > It was the 2nd "mass-produced" computer in the US to use ICs. The first was > the Apollo Guidance Computer. Do you have got any pictures of the unit and the CPU card set? Of course it uses core memory, right? Will post my collection list, too... Keep working on the Alert ;-) Best regards, Erik. From erik at baigar.de Wed Jan 11 07:03:20 2017 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 14:03:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <5875AB76.4020507@pico-systems.com> References: <9f503f70-ab4e-f4ce-0301-89b1e4692229@sydex.com> <5875AB76.4020507@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Hi together! Really an impressive amount of replies and quite cool equipment which gets preserver all over the world! Really great! >From my side I have various MIL-SPEC gear. (1) First of all an intertial navigation system Ferranti FIN1010 from the early 1970ties containing an archaic bitserial computer with 16/32 bit word length (can be switched on the fly by toggling a bit - Architecture unique and some mixture of Ferranti Pegasus and Argus): http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/FIN1010-Platform-20121106.divx (This is restored to working condition, see my older video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8 I do only know of 4 such systems still onlin on the world) (2a) From the UK based Elliott 900 series, which existed in different word lengths (12, 13 and 18 Bits) I restored a 12 bit variant since 2003: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/_View1.jpg This architecture appeared in the late 1960ties in all-transistor computers. My core memory based machine is to my knowledge the last and only one operating 12 bit baby in private hand. There may be ROM based ones still in service after 40+ years and I have some details in my project page: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/index.html (2b) Recently I acquired an 18bit MIL variant of the 900 series I am currently working on: 920ME. This probably is the latest implementation of this architecture: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/wanted/920M.jpg "Civil" variants of these machines have been very popular in the UK throughout the 1960ties and 1970ties and of the 18 bitters seven survived with some operational, but none is mine: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/Elliott905-Bletchley.jpg (3) I have got various MIL-SPEC computers from the US company Rolm/Loral - these 16bit beasts are all restored to working condition, have core (1602) or CMOS memory with mapping (MSE14) and are compatible to the DG Nova/Eclipse machines: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/EB-Rolm2-32kW.jpg http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/EB-Rolm2-08kW.jpg http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/MSE14-Eclipse.jpg To my knowledge of these machines there are only a few (<6) of the 1602 operating and I do not know of any MSE ones restored in private hand. (4) Various Parsytec, Inmos and SGI gear which can not be called rare or unusual. Happy comuting and it's great that stuff like the machines listed in the various mails gets preserved! Erik, Germany. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 11 07:40:07 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:40:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? Message-ID: <20170111134007.D1CFD18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > I have a computer of the type that Gates and Allen used for that early > development. :-) > I don't have it running, though. Really? Which model processor; KA, KI, KL? Noel PS: Apparently Gates and Allen at one point rented time on a commercial service in Boston to do development; anyone know who that was, and what machine/OS is was? From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Jan 11 07:44:34 2017 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 13:44:34 +0000 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jan 2017, Andy Cloud wrote: > I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the > rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? I have a (non functioning) Tandy sixteen channel 300 baud Mux for their Videotex system. Don't have the software to make it run though. Kelly From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 11 07:58:17 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:58:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Obscure MIT-spinoff computer (Was: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?) Message-ID: <20170111135817.D443B18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brad H > 4) Videobrain Family Computer So this tickled a question I'd been meaning to ask. Circa 1975, there was an MIT spinoff which designed and built a 'personal computer' (that's effectively what it was, although it wasn't called that). The company had gotten their start building digital (IIRC) capacitance meters (back when capacitance meters were not common). So they then decided that their next product would be a small computer. I don't recall the exact name, but it was something like 'Micro-Brain' (something with 'Brain' in it, IIRC). The computer was not a success (technically), and IIRC, it sank the company. Does this ring any bells for anyone? Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 11 08:07:03 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 09:07:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: pdp-11 assembly standards Message-ID: <20170111140703.ADFF718C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > This one: > ... > Reading more closely, the encoding has some relation back to BBC BASIC. Given this (from the documentation): Assembler directives -------------------- #include Includes the specified file. #ifndef