From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Feb 1 04:36:00 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2017 10:36:00 +0000 (WET) Subject: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:59:01 -0800" References: Message-ID: <01QADDBG0US4002GM1@beyondthepale.ie> > > It's COURYHOUSE[sic]'s fault. His email setup doesn't comply with best > practices and so Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him. > What you say may be true but I do not believe this is the root of the problem. (I also find it hard to see how you know whether Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him unless he told you this. There is a big difference between "messages from him" and "messages posted by him to a mailing list".) > > Ask him to fix his email setup. I think it's because he is essentially > spoofing the from address and using a different SMTP relay? I don't > remember. > By the time Gmail gets to see postings to the mailing list, they are coming from the cctech mailing list server, not from an AOL mailserver or my mailserver or anybody else's mailserver. If Gmail is noticing that mails with an AOL from address are coming from a non-AOL mailserver, they should be noticing the same thing about all the other mails posted to the mailing list. None of them (except maybe postings from Jay) are coming from the mailservers associated with the from address - they are all from the cctech mailing list server. Should Gmail should be regarding all cctech mailing list mails as having spoofed from addresses because the from addresses are not in the classiccmp.org domain? If not, why only some of them? Does Gmail have tech support that might explain exactly why they are bouncing mailing list emails for you when other mailing list subscribers are able to receive them with no problems? I guess when you use a free mail service like Gmail, you get to put up with whatever way they want to do things and they feel they are not under any obligation to tell you what they are doing in any great detail or to justify it other than to say "we think it works great". Regards, Peter Coghlan From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Feb 1 05:36:42 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2017 11:36:42 +0000 (WET) Subject: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 31 Jan 2017 14:06:29 -0500" Message-ID: <01QADE6P2LTI002GLR@beyondthepale.ie> ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) wrote: > > Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been > reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten > years. > I got "server failed" several times when I tried to look up the MX records for gnu.org. It seems to be working now though. Maybe this is a different problem or an issue at my end but if it isn't, this could be the reason your mailing list mail is getting bounced. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 06:18:32 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 07:18:32 -0500 Subject: Please identify this circuit board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2017 1:12 AM, "ilco havermout" wrote: > > Hi, > > Can someone identify this circuit board? It's some sort of magnetic core > memory. I've had this for ages and I've always wondered what it is and > where it comes from. > > http://lookpic.com/O/i2/366/iAFq4mLF.jpeg > > Best regards Could this be the core memory control card that snaps onto a larger core board? Or some other type of board, same idea. Here is an example http://www.vintagecomputer.net/inforex/inforex_controller_dataram_installed.jpg From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 1 07:11:19 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 08:11:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: <516208102.3239599.1485924646469@mail.yahoo.com> References: <516208102.3239599.1485924646469.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <516208102.3239599.1485924646469@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201702011311.IAA23855@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been >>> reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten >>> years. >> Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the >> destination mail server. Depends on how you view `cause'. My own mailserver is one what I believe must be a very few that will reject mail for, for exmaple, being marked as containing 8859-1 text but including octets like 0x92 which do not occur in 8859-1 text. Yet such bounces are actually caused by the composing MUA's nonconformance, with every intermediate mailhost that handled the mail complicit by acquiescence; my mailserver causes the bounce only in the immediate sense of being the one that blows the whistle and throws down the red flag, the one that flags the offence for what it is. > What I've been wondering for a while is the span of time over which > the bounces are counted. I haven't read the code for that logic in any mailing list manager (or at least if I have I don't recall). But... > I can understand shutting a subscriber off for getting 10 bounces in > as many minutes. On the other hand if those 10 bounces are spread > over two months, it seems rather severe. It depends. If those 10 bounces in as many minutes were for 10 consecutive messages, perhaps. If they were for 10 messages mixed randomly among 250 others that were delivered fine, it seems somewhat excessive to me. If I were writing such code, I would pay attention to not only count and time but also to non-bounced list traffic. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From schubert at microsys.de Wed Feb 1 07:42:18 2017 From: schubert at microsys.de (Walter Schubert) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:42:18 +0000 Subject: Looking for Eyring PDOS for TMS-9900 Message-ID: Hi Camiel Vanderhoeven I nearly got all about PDOS and the TM990 system......however only on 8" floopy disks. I also have the complete documentation and a TM990/100M system with a DRAM and a Floppy-Controller board. best regards Walter Schubert -- MicroSys Electronics GmbH, M?hlweg 1, D-82054 Sauerlach Tel.: +49 8104 801-0, Fax: +49 8104 801-110 Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sauerlach, HRB M?nchen 48340, Ust.ID No: DE129296566 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Dipl.-Ing. Richard Loeffl, Dipl.-Ing. Dieter Pfeiffer http://www.microsys.de From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 1 08:55:18 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 09:55:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT-11 Basic source available Message-ID: <20170201145518.5768318C0E7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Here: > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/macro.tar > is a tar file with the whole works, along with the MACRO-11 source. BASIC is not ready yet, and won't be for a few days. The problem is that I can't get it to assemble into a working version, which I would like to do, before sending it out. I _think_ that what happened is we made some change in the toolchain, to support other things we were doing, and one of them 'broke' re-building BASIC - except that since nobody was actually _doing_ anything with BASIC, we had no reason to re-build it - and so nobody noticed we had 'broken' it. If someone's desperate to get their hands on this, let me know, and I can go ahead and send out what I have, with the proviso that you can't build a working version from the MACRO-11 source at this point. > If the first person to try MACRO could send me feedback, to see if the > whole process works, I'd be grateful. Did anyone grab the MACRO-11 TAR and try it yet? Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 09:12:29 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 10:12:29 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: I thought this question was answered recently but I can't find the answer. I have the RK disk version of UNIX6 for PDP 11/40 but I could not find an RL02 version. does this exist? Can one be made using simH to dump and set up for RL02 that can then be ported as a RL02 disk image to actual RL02 drive? I can get an image onto the drive, should the image exist. My PDP 11/40 is not compatible with Unix 7, but I would be happy with 5 or 7 if it'll run on a 64K system. Thanks Bill From aap at papnet.eu Wed Feb 1 09:38:49 2017 From: aap at papnet.eu (Angelo Papenhoff) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 16:38:49 +0100 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170201153849.GA21515@indra.papnet.eu> On 01/02/17, william degnan wrote: > I thought this question was answered recently but I can't find the answer. > I have the RK disk version of UNIX6 for PDP 11/40 but I could not find an > RL02 version. does this exist? Can one be made using simH to dump and set > up for RL02 that can then be ported as a RL02 disk image to actual RL02 > drive? I can get an image onto the drive, should the image exist. My PDP > 11/40 is not compatible with Unix 7, but I would be happy with 5 or 7 if > it'll run on a 64K system. > Thanks > Bill http://www.tom-yam.or.jp/2238/rl/ From rickb at bensene.com Wed Feb 1 10:57:55 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 08:57:55 -0800 Subject: Please identify this circuit board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A6A2@mail.bensene.com> Mr. Havermout wrote: > Can someone identify this circuit board? It's some sort of magnetic core > memory. I've had this for ages and I've always wondered what it is and > where it comes from. > > http://lookpic.com/O/i2/366/iAFq4mLF.jpeg > Whatever this was, it appears that it has been scavenged for parts over time. Many components appear to be missing. It seems to me from looking at the board carefully that it could be a small wire-rope ROM, or, perhaps the cores (one module has its cover removed exposing the large ferrite rings) serve as pulse transformers for magnetic core that resides on another circuit board. If it is a small wire-rope read-only memory, it appears that it could be a 16x16 ROM, perhaps hard wired for some kind of small bootstrap loader or the like. It looks like there are 16 wire drivers (two of the driver transistors are missing), and 16 sense amplifiers. If it isn't a ROM, then it could be a driver/sense amp board, with some row/column driver transistors, steering diodes, and pulse transformers for a core array located on another board plugged into the backplane of whatever this was in. I'm not entirely sure which one of these it is, but it's likely one or the other. -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalcualtormuseum.com From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Feb 1 11:04:45 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2017 11:04:45 -0600 Subject: Please identify this circuit board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5892152D.4020706@pico-systems.com> On 01/31/2017 02:46 PM, ilco havermout wrote: > Hi, > > Can someone identify this circuit board? It's some sort of magnetic core > memory. I've had this for ages and I've always wondered what it is and > where it comes from. > > http://lookpic.com/O/i2/366/iAFq4mLF.jpeg > > Best regards > That is certainly a part of a core memory system, made by Electronic Memories. Does the other side of the board have a core plane on it? Memories from that vintage often have multiple boards, with select drivers, sense amps, inhibit drivers, decode logic and timing, as well as the core planes. Jon From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 10:15:22 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 11:15:22 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170201153849.GA21515@indra.papnet.eu> References: <20170201153849.GA21515@indra.papnet.eu> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Angelo Papenhoff wrote: > On 01/02/17, william degnan wrote: > > I thought this question was answered recently but I can't find the > answer. > > I have the RK disk version of UNIX6 for PDP 11/40 but I could not find an > > RL02 version. does this exist? Can one be made using simH to dump and > set > > up for RL02 that can then be ported as a RL02 disk image to actual RL02 > > drive? I can get an image onto the drive, should the image exist. My > PDP > > 11/40 is not compatible with Unix 7, but I would be happy with 5 or 7 if > > it'll run on a 64K system. > > Thanks > > Bill > > http://www.tom-yam.or.jp/2238/rl/ thanks. One other question...for those who use PDPGUI to write an image to an actual RL02 disk, how long does it take approx to write, say, an RT-11 5.3 disk using this method? Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 11:00:57 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 12:00:57 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170201153849.GA21515@indra.papnet.eu> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:15 AM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Angelo Papenhoff wrote: > >> On 01/02/17, william degnan wrote: >> > I thought this question was answered recently but I can't find the >> answer. >> > I have the RK disk version of UNIX6 for PDP 11/40 but I could not find >> an >> > RL02 version. does this exist? Can one be made using simH to dump and >> set >> > up for RL02 that can then be ported as a RL02 disk image to actual RL02 >> > drive? I can get an image onto the drive, should the image exist. My >> PDP >> > 11/40 is not compatible with Unix 7, but I would be happy with 5 or 7 if >> > it'll run on a 64K system. >> > Thanks >> > Bill >> >> http://www.tom-yam.or.jp/2238/rl/ > > > thanks. One other question...for those who use PDPGUI to write an image > to an actual RL02 disk, how long does it take approx to write, say, an > RT-11 5.3 disk using this method? > Bill > > Answer to my own question - about an hour for a small disk, as much as 3 hours for a large disk full of data. Once the image gets to what I assume is "blank" space, it goes a lot faster. You can see this by watching the READY light and the monitor panel. In the case of RT-11 5.0 it took over an hour. I assume the UNIX disk will take two or three hours. Bill From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 11:18:30 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 09:18:30 -0800 Subject: Please identify this circuit board In-Reply-To: <5892152D.4020706@pico-systems.com> References: <5892152D.4020706@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <2afb69a1-9f25-f1c8-f06a-43d3e5195197@sydex.com> Looks like a driver board (row or column) for an EMM core memory. A lot of stuff has been scavenged from the board, which makes ID more difficult. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 1 11:19:46 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 12:19:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170201171946.431F818C0E9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > Can one be made using simH to dump and set up for RL02 that can then be > ported as a RL02 disk image to actual RL02 drive? I see someone has already provided a pointer to someone who ha done this; I'm not sure if that system will boot on a hardware 11/40, or if it was built with m45.s, or some simlar issue. It would be pretty easy for anyone with a working V6 UNIX (either on hardware, or emulated) to do this, _iff_ they have a V6 RL driver. ('Vanilla' V6 does not include one.) My 'Bringing up V6 under Ersatz-11' page describes one: http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html#rl You might want to get familiar with building V6 kernels, _any_ hardware variations you wish to support (e.g. more than one DL11 seria line) will involve re-building the kernel. Not to worry, it's a pretty simple process, it only takes a few commands, and a few moments (more on a real machine, of course :-). That page include almost all the directions on how to do so, but note that one must also edit 'rootdev' in c.c if the root file system is to be on an RL (no, mkconf as distributed with 'vanilla' V6 won't do any of the legwork for you, it does not know about RL drives). Note that running 'vanilla' V6 Unix i) has some bugs/issue (e.g. you can't set the date to this century; the user interface is _strictly_ for printing terminals, etc, etc, etc), some of which are handled here: http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html#Issues so I would advise checking it out. (You can skip all the Ersatz-11-specific stuff, like the 'DOS Device' to allow Unix to read files from the host file-system - a very useful capability in an emulated Unix!) > From: Angelo Papenhoff > http://www.tom-yam.or.jp/2238/rl/ Note that his page says "bootblock is rluboot from v6_rl02_unknown, which lacks the source code"; I disassembled and commented the code, see above links. Noel From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 11:56:51 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 17:56:51 -0000 Subject: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: <01QADDBG0US4002GM1@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01QADDBG0US4002GM1@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <012d01d27cb4$914213f0$b3c63bd0$@outlook.com> It fails DMARC verification. AOL has published. Google knows the original sender was an AOL.COM address. It faILS. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan > Sent: 01 February 2017 10:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: [cctalk-request at classiccmp.org: confirm > 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] > > > > > It's COURYHOUSE[sic]'s fault. His email setup doesn't comply with best > > practices and so Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him. > > > > What you say may be true but I do not believe this is the root of the problem. > (I also find it hard to see how you know whether Gmail and other mail > systems reject messages from him unless he told you this. There is a big > difference between "messages from him" and "messages posted by him to a > mailing list".) > > > > > Ask him to fix his email setup. I think it's because he is essentially > > spoofing the from address and using a different SMTP relay? I don't > > remember. > > > > By the time Gmail gets to see postings to the mailing list, they are coming > from the cctech mailing list server, not from an AOL mailserver or my > mailserver or anybody else's mailserver. If Gmail is noticing that mails with an > AOL from address are coming from a non-AOL mailserver, they should be > noticing the same thing about all the other mails posted to the mailing list. > None of them (except maybe postings from Jay) are coming from the > mailservers associated with the from address - they are all from the cctech > mailing list server. > > Should Gmail should be regarding all cctech mailing list mails as having > spoofed from addresses because the from addresses are not in the > classiccmp.org domain? If not, why only some of them? > > Does Gmail have tech support that might explain exactly why they are > bouncing mailing list emails for you when other mailing list subscribers are > able to receive them with no problems? > > I guess when you use a free mail service like Gmail, you get to put up with > whatever way they want to do things and they feel they are not under any > obligation to tell you what they are doing in any great detail or to justify it > other than to say "we think it works great". > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Feb 1 12:02:29 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:02:29 -0500 Subject: Please identify this circuit board In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A6A2@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A6A2@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <1614A321-CB24-47E2-9267-4E44B42B0B34@comcast.net> > On Feb 1, 2017, at 11:57 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > Mr. Havermout wrote: > >> Can someone identify this circuit board? It's some sort of magnetic core >> memory. I've had this for ages and I've always wondered what it is and >> where it comes from. >> >> http://lookpic.com/O/i2/366/iAFq4mLF.jpeg >> > > Whatever this was, it appears that it has been scavenged for parts over time. Many components appear to be missing. > > It seems to me from looking at the board carefully that it could be a small wire-rope ROM, or, perhaps the cores (one module has its cover removed exposing the large ferrite rings) serve as pulse transformers for magnetic core that resides on another circuit board. > > If it is a small wire-rope read-only memory, it appears that it could be a 16x16 ROM, perhaps hard wired for some kind of small bootstrap loader or the like. > It looks like there are 16 wire drivers (two of the driver transistors are missing), and 16 sense amplifiers. If it's a core-rope ROM, which seems plausible, then it would be 256 x 16. Core rope uses 2 select ("inhibit") lines/drivers per address bit. So 16 drivers means 8 address bits, i.e., 2^8 words. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Feb 1 12:06:55 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:06:55 -0500 Subject: Please identify this circuit board In-Reply-To: <1614A321-CB24-47E2-9267-4E44B42B0B34@comcast.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A6A2@mail.bensene.com> <1614A321-CB24-47E2-9267-4E44B42B0B34@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Feb 1, 2017, at 1:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Feb 1, 2017, at 11:57 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: >> >> Mr. Havermout wrote: >> >>> Can someone identify this circuit board? It's some sort of magnetic core >>> memory. I've had this for ages and I've always wondered what it is and >>> where it comes from. >>> >>> http://lookpic.com/O/i2/366/iAFq4mLF.jpeg >>> >> >> Whatever this was, it appears that it has been scavenged for parts over time. Many components appear to be missing. >> >> It seems to me from looking at the board carefully that it could be a small wire-rope ROM, or, perhaps the cores (one module has its cover removed exposing the large ferrite rings) serve as pulse transformers for magnetic core that resides on another circuit board. >> >> If it is a small wire-rope read-only memory, it appears that it could be a 16x16 ROM, perhaps hard wired for some kind of small bootstrap loader or the like. >> It looks like there are 16 wire drivers (two of the driver transistors are missing), and 16 sense amplifiers. > > If it's a core-rope ROM, which seems plausible, then it would be 256 x 16. Core rope uses 2 select ("inhibit") lines/drivers per address bit. So 16 drivers means 8 address bits, i.e., 2^8 words. Never mind, that was all wrong. It takes only 2*n wires to select one of 2^n cores in a core-rope ROM, so far that was correct. But the number of ROM words equals the number of cores (obviously). So if there are 16 cores that would mean 16 words, but it also means that only 8 drivers are needed (4 address bits). So there's a puzzle. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 1 13:02:21 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 19:02:21 +0000 Subject: Please identify this circuit board In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A6A2@mail.bensene.com> <1614A321-CB24-47E2-9267-4E44B42B0B34@comcast.net>, Message-ID: I think it is a register board. Something to hold data through a power down. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 10:06:55 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Please identify this circuit board > On Feb 1, 2017, at 1:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Feb 1, 2017, at 11:57 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: >> >> Mr. Havermout wrote: >> >>> Can someone identify this circuit board? It's some sort of magnetic core >>> memory. I've had this for ages and I've always wondered what it is and >>> where it comes from. >>> >>> http://lookpic.com/O/i2/366/iAFq4mLF.jpeg >>> >> >> Whatever this was, it appears that it has been scavenged for parts over time. Many components appear to be missing. >> >> It seems to me from looking at the board carefully that it could be a small wire-rope ROM, or, perhaps the cores (one module has its cover removed exposing the large ferrite rings) serve as pulse transformers for magnetic core that resides on another circuit board. >> >> If it is a small wire-rope read-only memory, it appears that it could be a 16x16 ROM, perhaps hard wired for some kind of small bootstrap loader or the like. >> It looks like there are 16 wire drivers (two of the driver transistors are missing), and 16 sense amplifiers. > > If it's a core-rope ROM, which seems plausible, then it would be 256 x 16. Core rope uses 2 select ("inhibit") lines/drivers per address bit. So 16 drivers means 8 address bits, i.e., 2^8 words. Never mind, that was all wrong. It takes only 2*n wires to select one of 2^n cores in a core-rope ROM, so far that was correct. But the number of ROM words equals the number of cores (obviously). So if there are 16 cores that would mean 16 words, but it also means that only 8 drivers are needed (4 address bits). So there's a puzzle. paul [http://lookpic.com/O/i2/366/iAFq4mLF.jpeg] From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 13:07:51 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:07:51 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170201171946.431F818C0E9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170201171946.431F818C0E9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > Can one be made using simH to dump and set up for RL02 that can then > be > > ported as a RL02 disk image to actual RL02 drive? > > I see someone has already provided a pointer to someone who ha done this; > I'm > not sure if that system will boot on a hardware 11/40, or if it was built > with > m45.s, or some simlar issue. > > It would be pretty easy for anyone with a working V6 UNIX (either on > hardware, > or emulated) to do this, _iff_ they have a V6 RL driver. ('Vanilla' V6 does > not include one.) My 'Bringing up V6 under Ersatz-11' page describes one: > > http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html#rl > http://www.tom-yam.or.jp/2238/rl/ has a ".. bootable image of v6 root on RL02 .." doesn't hurt to try I suppose, see what happens on a real PDP 11/40. My fear is that it will not have enough RAM on top of whatever other issues are present. It will take about two hours, I'll run in the background while I work today. I had no problem building a RT-11 5 distribution disk earlier today, took a little over an hour and booted up just fine. I realize this is a totally different beast, but at least I know I have the process working correctly. BIll From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 1 13:34:53 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:34:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170201193453.582B918C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > doesn't hurt to try I suppose Absolutely. > My fear is that it will not have enough RAM on top of whatever other > issues are present. Oooh, good point - I hadn't thought of that. I couldn't quickly find a 'minimum memory required' in the release notes for V6; the 'Unix Summary' says it needs "48K to 124K words". I think that might be a bit excessive; I seem to recall our -11/40 had, to start with, only 48KB. Anyway, try it, and let us know what happens. How much memory does the system have on it now? If it doesn't work, I can do some experiments and see what's the least amount of memory one needs. There are a whole bunch of parameters which will reduce the size of the resident OS; if necessary, I can turn them all down to the minimum, and see what we get - although just reducing the number of disk buffer may do it. As for the applications, it does swap, so there's no requirement for more than one process to be resident at a time, so whatever the largest is - probably the C compiler - there only needs to be enough memory left over after the OS is loaded, for that one. It looks like the shell is about 10KB, for example. If it won't boot, don't trash the disk: if we send you another bootable disk, we can make it tiny (only Unix, and enough files to get it running: /etc/init, /bin/sh, etc), and if/once it books, you can mount the disk you just wrote and move the bootable Unix system image over, and then reboot on the current disk, to get to the rest of the stuff. Do you have two working RL drives on the machine? Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 14:13:14 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 15:13:14 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170201193453.582B918C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170201193453.582B918C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > > Anyway, try it, and let us know what happens. How much memory does the > system > have on it now? > > 64K. I'd like to get another M7891, mine is only 1/2 populated. > > If it doesn't work, I can do some experiments and see what's the least > amount > of memory one needs. > > There are a whole bunch of parameters which will reduce the size of the > resident OS; if necessary, I can turn them all down to the minimum, and see > what we get - although just reducing the number of disk buffer may do it. > > OK. > As for the applications, it does swap, so there's no requirement for more > than > one process to be resident at a time, so whatever the largest is - probably > the C compiler - there only needs to be enough memory left over after the > OS > is loaded, for that one. It looks like the shell is about 10KB, for > example. > > > If it won't boot, don't trash the disk: if we send you another bootable > disk, > we can make it tiny (only Unix, and enough files to get it running: > /etc/init, > /bin/sh, etc), and if/once it books, you can mount the disk you just wrote > and > move the bootable Unix system image over, and then reboot on the current > disk, > to get to the rest of the stuff. > > Do you have two working RL drives on the machine? > > I was going to say...yes I have two working RL drives. > Noel > The build just finished. When I boot I get the ! prompt, but when I type rlinux the system bombs and I can go no farther Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 14:26:53 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 15:26:53 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170201193453.582B918C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 3:13 PM, william degnan wrote: > >> >> Anyway, try it, and let us know what happens. How much memory does the >> system >> have on it now? >> >> > 64K. I'd like to get another M7891, mine is only 1/2 populated. > > >> >> If it doesn't work, I can do some experiments and see what's the least >> amount >> of memory one needs. >> >> There are a whole bunch of parameters which will reduce the size of the >> resident OS; if necessary, I can turn them all down to the minimum, and >> see >> what we get - although just reducing the number of disk buffer may do it. >> >> > OK. > > >> As for the applications, it does swap, so there's no requirement for more >> than >> one process to be resident at a time, so whatever the largest is - >> probably >> the C compiler - there only needs to be enough memory left over after the >> OS >> is loaded, for that one. It looks like the shell is about 10KB, for >> example. >> >> >> If it won't boot, don't trash the disk: if we send you another bootable >> disk, >> we can make it tiny (only Unix, and enough files to get it running: >> /etc/init, >> /bin/sh, etc), and if/once it books, you can mount the disk you just >> wrote and >> move the bootable Unix system image over, and then reboot on the current >> disk, >> to get to the rest of the stuff. >> >> Do you have two working RL drives on the machine? >> >> > I was going to say...yes I have two working RL drives. > > >> Noel >> > > > The build just finished. When I boot I get the ! prompt, but when I type > rlinux the system bombs and I can go no farther > > Bill > sorry I mean rlunix, but typing anything kills the CPU and I have to restart the system.. b From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 1 14:34:10 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:34:10 -0700 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170201193453.582B918C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2/1/2017 1:26 PM, william degnan wrote: >> >> >> The build just finished. When I boot I get the ! prompt, but when I type >> rlinux the system bombs and I can go no farther >> >> Bill >> > > sorry I mean rlunix, but typing anything kills the CPU and I have to > restart the system.. > b That is "the something better" BUG. RUN after 2032... or change time to long long :) Ben. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 1 14:56:02 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 15:56:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170201205602.7C78218C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > 64K. That's 64KB, right? DEC used to talk of PDP-11 memory in words, back in the day, so it's never quite clear unless the 'B' or 'W' is specified. Anyway, 64KB out to be enough to run most things. I have't looked to see how big a system with just RL and DL drivers, and a minimum number of disk buffers (that's probably the easiest way to get the size down almost as far as it will go) is, but it's probably in the region of 30-35KB (20KB text, and 10-15 KB data). That leaves plenty for user processes (not max sized, of course). > I'd like to get another M7891, mine is only 1/2 populated. Oh, so that must have been 64KW - 128KB. That will give you plenty of room for a decent-sized kernel, and user processes. Wonder why it won't boot, then? Anyway, those are pretty rare. I have a couple of spare M7847's; they're only 32KB, but they'd help. You've got a couple of spare hex MUD slots now in the DD11-C, right? Speaking of which, where is the M7891 plugged in? It couldn't go in the DD11-B, or in the CPU backplane? > typing anything kills the CPU and I have to restart the system.. Sorry, need exact details: after the '!' prompt, anything you type kills the system on the first character? Or only "rlunix" does? How about "foobar"? I'd have to look at the bootstrap source, but I think typing a non-existing file name should take you back to the top-level prompt. Noel From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 15:01:28 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:01:28 -0800 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170201205602.7C78218C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170201205602.7C78218C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:56 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > 64K. > > That's 64KB, right? DEC used to talk of PDP-11 memory in words, back in the > day, so it's never quite clear unless the 'B' or 'W' is specified. > > Anyway, 64KB out to be enough to run most things. I have't looked to see > how > big a system with just RL and DL drivers, and a minimum number of disk > buffers > (that's probably the easiest way to get the size down almost as far as it > will > go) is, but it's probably in the region of 30-35KB (20KB text, and 10-15 KB > data). That leaves plenty for user processes (not max sized, of course). > > > I'd like to get another M7891, mine is only 1/2 populated. > > Oh, so that must have been 64KW - 128KB. That will give you plenty of room > for > a decent-sized kernel, and user processes. Wonder why it won't boot, then? > > Anyway, those are pretty rare. I have a couple of spare M7847's; they're > only > 32KB, but they'd help. You've got a couple of spare hex MUD slots now in > the > DD11-C, right? Speaking of which, where is the M7891 plugged in? It > couldn't > go in the DD11-B, or in the CPU backplane? > > > > typing anything kills the CPU and I have to restart the system.. > > Sorry, need exact details: after the '!' prompt, anything you type kills > the system on the first character? Or only "rlunix" does? How about > "foobar"? I'd have to look at the bootstrap source, but I think > typing a non-existing file name should take you back to the top-level > prompt. > > Noel > I just tried booting this in simh (as an 11/40 with 64k) and the cpu halts after entering "rlunix" (Entering an invalid name just returns you to the "!" prompt). Configuring simh as an 11/45 allows it to boot. Looks like you'll need to rebuild the kernel with support for the 11/40. - Josh From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 15:12:46 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 16:12:46 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170201205602.7C78218C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170201205602.7C78218C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > I'd like to get another M7891, mine is only 1/2 populated. > > Oh, so that must have been 64KW - 128KB. That will give you plenty of room > for > a decent-sized kernel, and user processes. Wonder why it won't boot, then? > > It "boots" to the ! prompt at least there's that. > Anyway, those are pretty rare. I have a couple of spare M7847's; they're > only > 32KB, but they'd help. You've got a couple of spare hex MUD slots now in > the > DD11-C, right? Speaking of which, where is the M7891 plugged in? It > couldn't > go in the DD11-B, or in the CPU backplane? > > > The half-populated M7891 is plugged into the DD11-CF, slot 3. I am unsure if one can put an M7891 into a slot that has no NPG jumper installed, so I always use slot 3 for this card in the DD11-CF. I would have to check, or whether I can put this card into a DD11-B or a slot without the NPG installed. > > typing anything kills the CPU and I have to restart the system.. > > Sorry, need exact details: after the '!' prompt, anything you type kills > the system on the first character? Or only "rlunix" does? How about > "foobar"? I'd have to look at the bootstrap source, but I think > typing a non-existing file name should take you back to the top-level > prompt. > > > Typing *anything* kills the system. When I type say rlunix or foobar or whatever and hit enter, the prompt returns to the next line and the CPU stops. The system crashes, unresponsive, requiring restart from the front panel. Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 1 15:50:15 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 16:50:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170201215015.A1D1D18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > William Degnan > It "boots" to the ! prompt at least there's that. Yeah, but not much has to be working for that to happen! :-) > I am unsure if one can put an M7891 into a slot that has no NPG jumper > installed Yes, you can - but having a slot with no NPG jumper, and either i) no board in in it at all, or ii) a non-DMA-speaking board in it, will prevent any DMA device _further down the bus_ from working. > I would have to check, or whether I can put this card into a DD11-B No. It needs a MUD slot (UNIBUS in connectors A-B, essentially; more here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Modified_UNIBUS_Device although other places have info about this too). (I'm not exactly sure how the A/B connectors on DD11-B slots 2 and 3 are wired, it's something wierd, look at the DD11-B prints for more.) > or a slot without the NPG installed. The NPG jumper is IRRELEVANT to everything except DMA devices (in that slot, and downstream). > Typing *anything* kills the system. Well, technically speaking, that's not entirely accurate - clearly, from the below typing "r" doesn't crash the machine. I gather you meant 'typing "{anything}" crashes the machine'. Hmm. > When I type say rlunix or foobar or whatever and hit enter, the prompt > returns to the next line and the CPU stops. The system crashes, > unresponsive, requiring restart from the front panel. That sounds like the bootstrap isn't running properly. Oh, I remember an issue I had with the boostrap when first trying to bring up Unix in Ersatz-11 - does your -11/40 have the EIS board? Is the EIS working? If not, the bootstrap won't run - it uses the MUL instruction. (MUL is not in the base set on an -11/40, it's an option.) If that's not it, we'll have to debug the bootstrap... Should't be too hard, test versions can be loaded directly into memory with GUI-11, we don't have to write them to disk. You've got a (hopefully good) disk to have the bootstrap ponder over... Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 16:08:12 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 17:08:12 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170201215015.A1D1D18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170201215015.A1D1D18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > > That sounds like the bootstrap isn't running properly. > > Oh, I remember an issue I had with the boostrap when first trying to bring > up > Unix in Ersatz-11 - does your -11/40 have the EIS board? Is the EIS > working? > If not, the bootstrap won't run - it uses the MUL instruction. (MUL is not > in > the base set on an -11/40, it's an option.) > > If that's not it, we'll have to debug the bootstrap... Should't be too > hard, > test versions can be loaded directly into memory with GUI-11, we don't > have to > write them to disk. You've got a (hopefully good) disk to have the > bootstrap > ponder over... > > Noel > I do not have an EIS installed. I have one however, I can try it. I am unsure if it's good or not, but I guess I am going to find out. b From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 16:35:55 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 17:35:55 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170201215015.A1D1D18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:08 PM, william degnan wrote: > >> >> That sounds like the bootstrap isn't running properly. >> >> Oh, I remember an issue I had with the boostrap when first trying to >> bring up >> Unix in Ersatz-11 - does your -11/40 have the EIS board? Is the EIS >> working? >> If not, the bootstrap won't run - it uses the MUL instruction. (MUL is >> not in >> the base set on an -11/40, it's an option.) >> >> If that's not it, we'll have to debug the bootstrap... Should't be too >> hard, >> test versions can be loaded directly into memory with GUI-11, we don't >> have to >> write them to disk. You've got a (hopefully good) disk to have the >> bootstrap >> ponder over... >> >> Noel >> > > I do not have an EIS installed. I have one however, I can try it. I am > unsure if it's good or not, but I guess I am going to find out. > b > > (after the washer is done, the 11/40 shares the same circuit as the washing machine. Don't want to overload.) b From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 16:36:42 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:42 -0800 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170201215015.A1D1D18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 2:08 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > > > > > > That sounds like the bootstrap isn't running properly. > > > > Oh, I remember an issue I had with the boostrap when first trying to > bring > > up > > Unix in Ersatz-11 - does your -11/40 have the EIS board? Is the EIS > > working? > > If not, the bootstrap won't run - it uses the MUL instruction. (MUL is > not > > in > > the base set on an -11/40, it's an option.) > > > > If that's not it, we'll have to debug the bootstrap... Should't be too > > hard, > > test versions can be loaded directly into memory with GUI-11, we don't > > have to > > write them to disk. You've got a (hopefully good) disk to have the > > bootstrap > > ponder over... > > > > Noel > > > > I do not have an EIS installed. I have one however, I can try it. I am > unsure if it's good or not, but I guess I am going to find out. > b > As Noel said, you'll need the EIS. As I mentioned above, you'll also need to recompile the kernel on that RL02 image, it's not set up for an 11/40 currently. - Josh From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 1 16:55:23 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 17:55:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170201225523.5316C18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > I do not have an EIS installed. I have one however, I can try it. I am > unsure if it's good or not, but I guess I am going to find out. Oh yeah, without that, you're totally hosed, Unix-wise. The V6 C compiler puts out MUL etc all over the place (e.g. for structure pointer math), so there's absolutely no way to run vanilla V6 Unix without it. (The GCC compiler claims to be able to compile C to machines without the EIS; it might be an interesting hack to see if that could be used to get V6 running on a machine without the EIS. The machine language startups would still need work, though. And the bootstrap. :-) > Josh Dersch > As I mentioned above Right, but if his bootstrap isn't working, gotta debug that first.. :-) > you'll also need to recompile the kernel Actually, I don't think you need to re-compile anything, just link in m40.o instead of m45.o; I think all the C code checks for 'cputyp == 40' or whatever, as the case may be. Noel From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 1 17:18:43 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2017 23:18:43 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers Message-ID: Evening folks, I have two so-called Logic Analysers, both cheap Chinese clones of other more expensive units that hook up to the host via USB2 and stream readings direct to software, in one case the open source Sigrok and in the other genuine Saleae Logic. I'm getting different and inconsistent readings out of both of them whilst sampling at 25MHz which should be more than enough for this 6MHz Executel I'm working on. Both of them are good for spotting dead or stuck outputs but I still can't get a good set of readings from eg all points on a single address line. Tonight I replaced all four ROM sockets and ROM chips, tested each individual line for resistance (0.5 ohms on all apart from an occasional 0.4 and 0.6) but still get ghost readings. Is it me or the cheap clones? Whilst looking for better quality units I came across a couple of 'proper' HP/Agilent analysers, a 1663A 34 channel and 1661A 102 channel which seem complete apart from the chip leg grabbers. Am I right to assume some of you might have experience of these beasts? Forums seem to mostly think the streaming USB units aren't worth anything for more than a few channels but I'm still a relative beginner to all of this. I really need to watch all 16 lines of an address bus and externally clock it as Tony has suggested. Any insights appreciated! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 17:30:34 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 18:30:34 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170201225523.5316C18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170201225523.5316C18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > you'll also need to recompile the kernel > > Actually, I don't think you need to re-compile anything, just link in m40.o > instead of m45.o; I think all the C code checks for 'cputyp == 40' or > whatever, as the case may be. > > Noel If I get farther with an EIS, if possible can you help me to link in m40.o instead of m45.o? Bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Feb 1 19:54:00 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 20:54:00 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170201225523.5316C18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170201225523.5316C18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8703B85A-EC15-4EED-B6CE-5770342DA265@comcast.net> > On Feb 1, 2017, at 5:55 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: William Degnan > >> I do not have an EIS installed. I have one however, I can try it. I am >> unsure if it's good or not, but I guess I am going to find out. > > Oh yeah, without that, you're totally hosed, Unix-wise. The V6 C compiler > puts out MUL etc all over the place (e.g. for structure pointer math), so > there's absolutely no way to run vanilla V6 Unix without it. > > (The GCC compiler claims to be able to compile C to machines without the > EIS; it might be an interesting hack to see if that could be used to get > V6 running on a machine without the EIS. The machine language startups > would still need work, though. And the bootstrap. :-) Yes, GCC should do that correctly. If not, report the bug and I'll take a look at it. Dealing with the output might be a nuisance; it generates GNU "as" compatible text, or something that pretends to be DEC format but isn't actually. You may need some post-processing to cast the output into the syntax that V6 "as" expects. If you use gcc, you will also need whatever libgcc modules it happens to call on in the generated code; minimally the mul/div routines if you ask for no-eis of course. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 1 19:56:31 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 20:56:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170202015631.9767F18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > if possible can you help me to link in m40.o instead of m45.o? Sure; tomorrow, though, not tonight. Just to check, you have 128KB of memory, and 2 RL02 drives, right? That will make it all really easy, if so. Like I said, I'll make you a mini-disk that will be quick to load with GUI11, with only the only files on it the few you need to be able to boot: the Unix system, /etc/init, /bin/sh, etc. Once it has booted, you can 'mount' your existing RL pack, and copy the Unix system over to that one, then you should be able to boot off that one. Noel PS: I was thinking of fixing 'mkconf' (it currently doesn't properly handle the /dev/tty device, etc), but whoever wrote it was really lazy! 'nswap' and 'swplo' aren't even parameterized, let alone being things you can override with inputs. So the dude who did the RL disk just changed the numbers for the RL - so his mkconf now doesn't work properly for RK drives! Might as well just edit c.c and l.s directly - that's what I always did! ;-) Anyway, I might fix it at some point, but... not for tomorrow. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 1 20:30:43 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 21:30:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170202023043.A177118C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Yes, GCC should do that correctly. ... Dealing with the output might be > a nuisance ... You may need some post-processing to cast the output > into the syntax that V6 "as" expects. Actually, dealing with the _input_ is going to be a PITA (so my suggestion was, in retrospect, not really a plausible one). The problem is that V6 is written in an early dialect of C, one which I am sure would cause GCC would toss its cookies, if fed to it. Some things, like "a =+ b;" would be easy to fix; likewise "int a 1;" instead of "int a = 1;". But the Unix kernel is shot through with places where are int is used as a structure pointer, etc, without benefit of a cast (casts weren't invented until later). And a lot of stuff like that. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Feb 1 21:13:59 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2017 21:13:59 -0600 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5892A3F7.9070804@pico-systems.com> On 02/01/2017 05:18 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Evening folks, > > I have two so-called Logic Analysers, both cheap Chinese clones of other > more expensive units that hook up to the host via USB2 and stream readings > direct to software, in one case the open source Sigrok and in the other > genuine Saleae Logic. > > I'm getting different and inconsistent readings out of both of them whilst > sampling at 25MHz which should be more than enough for this 6MHz Executel > I'm working on. Both of them are good for spotting dead or stuck outputs but > I still can't get a good set of readings from eg all points on a single > address line. Tonight I replaced all four ROM sockets and ROM chips, tested > each individual line for resistance (0.5 ohms on all apart from an > occasional 0.4 and 0.6) but still get ghost readings. > > Is it me or the cheap clones? Well, these lines likely have pulses, and depending on when they are sampled, you can get a high, low, or indeterminate state. Also, the LA may have fixed threshold voltages that may not correspond to the actual thresholds of the logic you are testing. Generally, you would clock the LA off some master clock in the unit under test. Jon From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 21:20:29 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 22:20:29 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170202015631.9767F18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170202015631.9767F18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > > Just to check, you have 128KB of memory, and 2 RL02 drives, right? That > will > make it all really easy, if so. > > I have a 1/2 populated M7891 > Like I said, I'll make you a mini-disk that will be quick to load with > GUI11, > with only the only files on it the few you need to be able to boot: the > Unix > system, /etc/init, /bin/sh, etc. Once it has booted, you can 'mount' your > existing RL pack, and copy the Unix system over to that one, then you > should > be able to boot off that one. > Wow..thanks I would really love to make this work. > > Noel > > PS: I was thinking of fixing 'mkconf' (it currently doesn't properly handle > the /dev/tty device, etc), but whoever wrote it was really lazy! 'nswap' > and > 'swplo' aren't even parameterized, let alone being things you can override > with inputs. So the dude who did the RL disk just changed the numbers for > the > RL - so his mkconf now doesn't work properly for RK drives! Might as well > just > edit c.c and l.s directly - that's what I always did! ;-) > > Anyway, I might fix it at some point, but... not for tomorrow. > understood and certainly no rush. I have been working on this for many years now to get to this point of understanding. Way before my time. I started with IBM in 1987 as a college intern. Bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 22:26:36 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 20:26:36 -0800 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Whilst looking for better quality units I came across a couple of 'proper' > HP/Agilent analysers, a 1663A 34 channel and 1661A 102 channel which seem > complete apart from the chip leg grabbers. Am I right to assume some of you > might have experience of these beasts? > An HP 1660 or 1670 series self-contained portable logic analyzer might be nice to pick up if you can get a decent deal on one. The main limitation of the 1660 series is that the sample depth is only 4K samples per channel. The 1670 series offers deeper sample depths, and they may sell at a higher price as a result. And of course a sub-model with more channels is better than one with fewer channels. For debugging something like an 8085 CPU system you could connect up the analyzer to the CPU and if you capture traces in state mode (address, data, and status signals clocked in by RD, WR, or INTA edges) the 8085 inverse assembler software running on the analyzer can decode the bus transactions into the 8085 instruction stream. 1660A - Mono CRT. 4K sample depth. Floppy only. No LAN. 1660C - Mono CRT. 4K sample depth. Hard drive. LAN optional. 1660E - Color LCD. 4K sample depth. Hard drive. LAN. 1670A - Mono CRT. 64K (optional 500K) sample depth. Hard drive. LAN. 1670D - Mono CRT. 64K (optional 1M) sample depth. Hard drive. LAN. 1670E - Color LCD. 1M sample depth. Hard drive. LAN. 1670G - Color LCD. 64K (optional 256K or 2M) sample depth. Hard drive. LAN. (Information manually gathered from datasheets, hope it's all correct) There are also options for built in dual channel oscilloscopes and pattern generators. Too bad you're not local. I could make you a good deal on a bigger 16500B system. I have more of those than I need. Unfortunately the cost to ship one is close to or may even exceed their current market value, just within the US. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 00:50:41 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 22:50:41 -0800 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <276d8d61-610a-4d80-a789-8bd988c7a76b@sydex.com> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: >> >> Whilst looking for better quality units I came across a couple of >> 'proper' HP/Agilent analysers, a 1663A 34 channel and 1661A 102 >> channel which seem complete apart from the chip leg grabbers. Am I >> right to assume some of you might have experience of these beasts? >> > > An HP 1660 or 1670 series self-contained portable logic analyzer > might be nice to pick up if you can get a decent deal on one. The > main limitation of the 1660 series is that the sample depth is only > 4K samples per channel. The 1670 series offers deeper sample depths, > and they may sell at a higher price as a result. And of course a > sub-model with more channels is better than one with fewer channels. The problem with used logic analyzers is that the prices can vary widely. My 1663 was purchased from eBay for $47 shipped, was clearly from a rental service, as it was complete; nothing missing. I use an LA less than a 'scope, so the price is right for me. Mostly, I'm interested in looking at peripheral device timing, so it's perfect for the occasional head-scratcher. I remember when we got in the then-new HP 1615 logic analyzer--I was blown away by it. We were using a Tek lab scope plug-in which was pretty limited. The idea of a piece of test equipment with a keyboard and its own display was pure genius. Biomation, IIRC, was also big in the business, but not nearly as polished as the HP units. I don't know where you're located, but if you're in a region with an Electro Rent depot, you might inquire to see if they turn their old gear over to an auctioneer. --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Feb 2 03:44:18 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 10:44:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: Please identify this circuit board In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A6A2@mail.bensene.com> <1614A321-CB24-47E2-9267-4E44B42B0B34@comcast.net>, Message-ID: [Exceptionally top-posting...] There are two modules each containing eight pulse transformers. That's it. The left module has the cover removed. No memory, no register. This board is from 1971, so it would contain some TTL FFs or RAM (e.g. 7489) for registers. Christian On Wed, 1 Feb 2017, dwight wrote: > I think it is a register board. Something > > to hold data through a power down. > > Dwight > >> On Feb 1, 2017, at 1:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Feb 1, 2017, at 11:57 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: >>> >>> Mr. Havermout wrote: >>> >>>> Can someone identify this circuit board? It's some sort of magnetic core >>>> memory. I've had this for ages and I've always wondered what it is and >>>> where it comes from. >>>> >>>> http://lookpic.com/O/i2/366/iAFq4mLF.jpeg >>>> >>> >>> Whatever this was, it appears that it has been scavenged for parts over time. Many components appear to be missing. >>> >>> It seems to me from looking at the board carefully that it could be a small wire-rope ROM, or, perhaps the cores (one module has its cover removed exposing the large ferrite rings) serve as pulse transformers for magnetic core that resides on another circuit board. >>> >>> If it is a small wire-rope read-only memory, it appears that it could be a 16x16 ROM, perhaps hard wired for some kind of small bootstrap loader or the like. >>> It looks like there are 16 wire drivers (two of the driver transistors are missing), and 16 sense amplifiers. >> >> If it's a core-rope ROM, which seems plausible, then it would be 256 x 16. Core rope uses 2 select ("inhibit") lines/drivers per address bit. So 16 drivers means 8 address bits, i.e., 2^8 words. > > Never mind, that was all wrong. It takes only 2*n wires to select one of 2^n cores in a core-rope ROM, so far that was correct. But the number of ROM words equals the number of cores (obviously). So if there are 16 cores that would mean 16 words, but it also means that only 8 drivers are needed (4 address bits). So there's a puzzle. > > paul From julian.metcalf at liketechnologies.co.uk Thu Feb 2 04:48:11 2017 From: julian.metcalf at liketechnologies.co.uk (Julian Metcalf) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 10:48:11 +0000 Subject: Free to a good home: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 workstation / server (Seattle, WA) Message-ID: Hi Josh, I saw your posting on the 23rd Jan 16 regarding Bull DPS 6. We are based in the UK and actually run 4 working DPS6 systems in the UK. Any system (in its entirety or parts) we may be interested in if compatible with our existing system. Do you still have it? Many thanks, Julian Julian Metcalf Finance Director Like Technologies Ltd 0845 519 2244 Ext 111 This email and any attachments to it may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Like Technologies Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you must neither take any action based upon its contents, nor copy or show it to anyone. Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 07:26:28 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 08:26:28 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202015631.9767F18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Tried my M7838 EIS this morning. It is bad or there is a config/jumper issue to investigate. With the EIS installed I cannot boot RT-11 5.3 nor UNIX 6. The good news is that when I attempt to boot UNIX 6 I get a different error than before. Now, when I run rlunix at the ! prompt, the system responds with all data lights and address light 1 ON. The system still freezes, but it's less "dead" than before, seems like it gets farther along indicating the bootstrap at least starts before the EIS board fails somehow. Now I have XXDP+ on a disk pack and I can run diagnostics on the EIS board, if the system allows me to boot XXDP, see what happens. Bill From tmanos at concursive.com Thu Feb 2 07:33:24 2017 From: tmanos at concursive.com (Tom Manos) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 08:33:24 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202015631.9767F18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I think it's only mostly dead :) Sorry :( Tom ------ Tom Manos, CTO Concursive Corporation 222 W 21st, Suite 213 Norfolk, VA. 23517 (757) 627-2760 (office) On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 8:26 AM, william degnan wrote: > Tried my M7838 EIS this morning. It is bad or there is a config/jumper > issue to investigate. With the EIS installed I cannot boot RT-11 5.3 nor > UNIX 6. > > The good news is that when I attempt to boot UNIX 6 I get a different error > than before. Now, when I run rlunix at the ! prompt, the system responds > with all data lights and address light 1 ON. The system still freezes, but > it's less "dead" than before, seems like it gets farther along indicating > the bootstrap at least starts before the EIS board fails somehow. > > Now I have XXDP+ on a disk pack and I can run diagnostics on the EIS board, > if the system allows me to boot XXDP, see what happens. > > Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Feb 2 07:55:13 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 08:55:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170202135513.1C8C018C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > Tried my M7838 EIS this morning. It is bad or there is a config/jumper > issue to investigate. When installing the KE11-E, you have to remove a jumper on the CPU's M7233 module. See pg. 2-1 on the KE11-E/KE11-F User's Manual (EK-KE11E-OP-001), available online. Did yours come with the three flat cable jumpers? If it's still not working, the KE11-E/KE11-F Technical Manual (EK-KE11E-TM-002), also available online, will undoubtly prove useful. Noel From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 2 08:24:26 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 14:24:26 +0000 Subject: Please identify this circuit board In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A6A2@mail.bensene.com> <1614A321-CB24-47E2-9267-4E44B42B0B34@comcast.net>, , Message-ID: Are you sure the cores are transformers and not memory cores? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Christian Corti Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 1:44:18 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Please identify this circuit board [Exceptionally top-posting...] There are two modules each containing eight pulse transformers. That's it. The left module has the cover removed. No memory, no register. This board is from 1971, so it would contain some TTL FFs or RAM (e.g. 7489) for registers. Christian On Wed, 1 Feb 2017, dwight wrote: > I think it is a register board. Something > > to hold data through a power down. > > Dwight > >> On Feb 1, 2017, at 1:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Feb 1, 2017, at 11:57 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: >>> >>> Mr. Havermout wrote: >>> >>>> Can someone identify this circuit board? It's some sort of magnetic core >>>> memory. I've had this for ages and I've always wondered what it is and >>>> where it comes from. >>>> >>>> http://lookpic.com/O/i2/366/iAFq4mLF.jpeg >>>> >>> >>> Whatever this was, it appears that it has been scavenged for parts over time. Many components appear to be missing. >>> >>> It seems to me from looking at the board carefully that it could be a small wire-rope ROM, or, perhaps the cores (one module has its cover removed exposing the large ferrite rings) serve as pulse transformers for magnetic core that resides on another circuit board. >>> >>> If it is a small wire-rope read-only memory, it appears that it could be a 16x16 ROM, perhaps hard wired for some kind of small bootstrap loader or the like. >>> It looks like there are 16 wire drivers (two of the driver transistors are missing), and 16 sense amplifiers. >> >> If it's a core-rope ROM, which seems plausible, then it would be 256 x 16. Core rope uses 2 select ("inhibit") lines/drivers per address bit. So 16 drivers means 8 address bits, i.e., 2^8 words. > > Never mind, that was all wrong. It takes only 2*n wires to select one of 2^n cores in a core-rope ROM, so far that was correct. But the number of ROM words equals the number of cores (obviously). So if there are 16 cores that would mean 16 words, but it also means that only 8 drivers are needed (4 address bits). So there's a puzzle. > > paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 08:30:14 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 09:30:14 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202015631.9767F18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 8:33 AM, Tom Manos wrote: > I think it's only mostly dead :) > > Sorry :( > > Tom > ------ > > Pretty much dead/needs repair. System boots RT-11 without it. When I remove the w1 jumper on the M7233 IR Decode and install the EIS M7238, the system goes into DC LO AC LO and I can't operate the front panel. Oh well. I can't really run the XXDP diagnostic without the W1 jumper removed, so I can only attempt to repair out of the system. Bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Feb 2 08:34:09 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 09:34:09 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170202023043.A177118C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170202023043.A177118C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <314D5B57-990A-4A49-89E0-130FCCC74DD9@comcast.net> > On Feb 1, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> Yes, GCC should do that correctly. ... Dealing with the output might be >> a nuisance ... You may need some post-processing to cast the output >> into the syntax that V6 "as" expects. > > Actually, dealing with the _input_ is going to be a PITA (so my suggestion > was, in retrospect, not really a plausible one). The problem is that V6 is > written in an early dialect of C, one which I am sure would cause GCC would > toss its cookies, if fed to it. > > Some things, like "a =+ b;" would be easy to fix; likewise "int a 1;" instead > of "int a = 1;". But the Unix kernel is shot through with places where are > int is used as a structure pointer, etc, without benefit of a cast (casts > weren't invented until later). And a lot of stuff like that. Yes, that would be an interesting issue. One answer would be to write a new front end ("Old C"). That's probably more work than can easily be justified, though. paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 08:38:34 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 06:38:34 -0800 Subject: Please identify this circuit board In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A6A2@mail.bensene.com> <1614A321-CB24-47E2-9267-4E44B42B0B34@comcast.net> Message-ID: <595eac77-892a-667b-3008-12629cdde155@sydex.com> On 02/02/2017 06:24 AM, dwight wrote: > Are you sure the cores are transformers and not memory > > cores? > > Dwight It's pretty obvious to me that there are several turns on each core. Given the PCB fab date (10/73), there were better methods for keeping around a few bits than core. If you compare this board with some of the circuitry found in the EMM bitsavers documentation, it's a pretty good bet that this was a driver board. Note that empty pads for a 20-pin 0.600" wide IC also. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Feb 2 11:25:04 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 17:25:04 +0000 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <314D5B57-990A-4A49-89E0-130FCCC74DD9@comcast.net> References: <20170202023043.A177118C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <314D5B57-990A-4A49-89E0-130FCCC74DD9@comcast.net> Message-ID: From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Paul Koning [paulkoning at comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 9:34 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: RL02 version of UNIX6? > On Feb 1, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> Yes, GCC should do that correctly. ... Dealing with the output might be >> a nuisance ... You may need some post-processing to cast the output >> into the syntax that V6 "as" expects. > > Actually, dealing with the _input_ is going to be a PITA (so my suggestion > was, in retrospect, not really a plausible one). The problem is that V6 is > written in an early dialect of C, one which I am sure would cause GCC would > toss its cookies, if fed to it. > > Some things, like "a =+ b;" would be easy to fix; likewise "int a 1;" instead > of "int a = 1;". But the Unix kernel is shot through with places where are > int is used as a structure pointer, etc, without benefit of a cast (casts > weren't invented until later). And a lot of stuff like that. Yes, that would be an interesting issue. One answer would be to write a new front end ("Old C"). That's probably more work than can easily be justified, though. __________________________________________________________________ What version of GCC is being used here? I thought they removed support for the PDP-11 more than a deacde ago. And, while I am at it, based on what people are saying here I assume they also removed the switch for K&R mode. bill From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Feb 2 11:58:37 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 09:58:37 -0800 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202023043.A177118C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <314D5B57-990A-4A49-89E0-130FCCC74DD9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4497E6D7-04EE-4F95-9708-D2BD721932D6@shiresoft.com> > On Feb 2, 2017, at 9:25 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Paul Koning [paulkoning at comcast.net] > Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 9:34 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: RL02 version of UNIX6? > >> On Feb 1, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> From: Paul Koning >> >>> Yes, GCC should do that correctly. ... Dealing with the output might be >>> a nuisance ... You may need some post-processing to cast the output >>> into the syntax that V6 "as" expects. >> >> Actually, dealing with the _input_ is going to be a PITA (so my suggestion >> was, in retrospect, not really a plausible one). The problem is that V6 is >> written in an early dialect of C, one which I am sure would cause GCC would >> toss its cookies, if fed to it. >> >> Some things, like "a =+ b;" would be easy to fix; likewise "int a 1;" instead >> of "int a = 1;". But the Unix kernel is shot through with places where are >> int is used as a structure pointer, etc, without benefit of a cast (casts >> weren't invented until later). And a lot of stuff like that. > > Yes, that would be an interesting issue. One answer would be to write a new front end ("Old C"). That's probably more work than can easily be justified, though. > > __________________________________________________________________ > > What version of GCC is being used here? I thought they removed support > for the PDP-11 more than a deacde ago. > > And, while I am at it, based on what people are saying here I assume they also > removed the switch for K&R mode. It?s not just K&R mode. It?s v6 mode. C had some deficiencies prior to the release of v7. The most notable was that (e.g. a += 1) was in v6 actually <=op> (e.g a =+ 1). This led to ambiguities: if you have a=+1 do you mean to increment a by 1 or assign +1 to a? I don?t recall if v7 cc was transitory (in that it allowed both forms) but I do know the earlier form was phased out fairly quickly. TTFN - Guy From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Feb 2 12:12:31 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 13:12:31 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202023043.A177118C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <314D5B57-990A-4A49-89E0-130FCCC74DD9@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > What version of GCC is being used here? I thought they removed support > for the PDP-11 more than a deacde ago. No, it's still there. I'm the target maintainer for it, not that I've done a whole lot of work on it recently. But I signed up for that role partly to prevent its being removed. What did get removed (though it could be restored) is the 2bsd target variant. The float support is a bit flaky because of the complications created by ac4 and ac5. But in general it does a decent job, and passes a large fraction of the GCC unit test scripts. > And, while I am at it, based on what people are saying here I assume they also > removed the switch for K&R mode. That sounds familiar. paul From pb at pbcl.net Thu Feb 2 12:16:42 2017 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2017 18:16:42 +0000 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202023043.A177118C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> , <314D5B57-990A-4A49-89E0-130FCCC74DD9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1486059402.13882.22.camel@pbcl.net> On Thu, 2017-02-02 at 17:25 +0000, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > What version of GCC is being used here? I thought they removed > support for the PDP-11 more than a deacde ago. GCC does still have a pdp11 backend today. It doesn't seem to be very actively maintained, and how well it works nowadays is possibly another question, but it should at least be buildable. > I assume they also removed the switch for K&R mode. I'm not sure there ever was such a switch. If there was, it was removed a long time ago. "-std=c90" still works and should accept some, maybe most, K&R code. As others have noted, GCC has no option to accept pre-K&R C, though I suspect it would probably not be all that hard to write some sort of preprocessor to convert such code to either K&R or C90 dialect. p. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 2 12:24:58 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2017 18:24:58 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: <5892A3F7.9070804@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 02/02/2017 03:13, "Jon Elson" wrote: > On 02/01/2017 05:18 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Evening folks, >> >> I have two so-called Logic Analysers, both cheap Chinese clones of other >> more expensive units that hook up to the host via USB2 and stream readings >> direct to software, in one case the open source Sigrok and in the other >> genuine Saleae Logic. >> >> I'm getting different and inconsistent readings out of both of them whilst >> sampling at 25MHz which should be more than enough for this 6MHz Executel >> I'm working on. Both of them are good for spotting dead or stuck outputs but >> I still can't get a good set of readings from eg all points on a single >> address line. Tonight I replaced all four ROM sockets and ROM chips, tested >> each individual line for resistance (0.5 ohms on all apart from an >> occasional 0.4 and 0.6) but still get ghost readings. >> >> Is it me or the cheap clones? > Well, these lines likely have pulses, and depending on when > they are sampled, you can get a high, low, or indeterminate > state. Also, the LA may have fixed threshold voltages that > may not correspond to the actual thresholds of the logic you > are testing. True, but one is adjustable for either 3.3v or 5v threshold while the other is fixed 5v. Also you'd expect that sampling at four times the clock speed (they'll both do 25Mhz with 6 channels) then every pulse would be picked up. > Generally, you would clock the LA off some master clock in > the unit under test. Yeah, neither of them will do that. Units with external clock capability are over the ukp100 mark which initially was far more than I was comfortable paying when I wasn't sure about how it all worked. For troubleshooting CBM PETs the cheapy one worked fine. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Feb 2 12:41:34 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 13:41:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Phil Blundell > I suspect it would probably not be all that hard to write some > sort of preprocessor to convert such code Really? Check out: http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V6/usr/sys/ken/pipe.c (Needless to say, none of the 'int *' things are actually pointers to integers!) In particular, what will lines like this: sleep(ip+2, PPIPE); do, depending on what 'ip' is declared as? Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Feb 2 12:43:33 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 10:43:33 -0800 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I bought a used 1662 off eBay for cheap, and it has been indispensable for the work I've been doing on a PDP-11. I think the external clock is often a pretty critical feature in being able to sensibly interpret traces. Sophisticated triggering is also very useful for catching a suspected misbehaving chip in the act. I had considered some of the more modern USB options at the time because it seemed they would be convenient, but in the end I opted for a used old-school tool because it had the features I needed at less actual cost. I have not regretted the decision -- super useful tool! --FritzM. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Feb 2 12:50:19 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 13:50:19 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> > On Feb 2, 2017, at 1:41 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Phil Blundell > >> I suspect it would probably not be all that hard to write some >> sort of preprocessor to convert such code > > Really? Check out: > > http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V6/usr/sys/ken/pipe.c > > (Needless to say, none of the 'int *' things are actually pointers to > integers!) > > In particular, what will lines like this: > > sleep(ip+2, PPIPE); > > do, depending on what 'ip' is declared as? If "ip" is an int *, it would pass the address in ip plus 2 * 2. If ip is actually the address of some struct, then hopefully that address offset by 4 is a meaningful address. I'm guessing that the 2 in there represents sizeof(foo)/sizeof(int). Right? paul From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 2 13:02:48 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2017 19:02:48 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 02/02/2017 04:26, "Glen Slick" wrote: >> >> Whilst looking for better quality units I came across a couple of 'proper' >> HP/Agilent analysers, a 1663A 34 channel and 1661A 102 channel which seem >> complete apart from the chip leg grabbers. Am I right to assume some of you >> might have experience of these beasts? >> > > For debugging something like an 8085 CPU system you could connect up > the analyzer to the CPU and if you capture traces in state mode > (address, data, and status signals clocked in by RD, WR, or INTA > edges) the 8085 inverse assembler software running on the analyzer can > decode the bus transactions into the 8085 instruction stream. That would be excellent to see, all I can do at the moment is fake an external clock by using the RD signal and duplicate one of the higher address lines (A12 currently) to make up for losing one channel since it's only a 16 channel analyser. Then I run that through a 'simple parallel' decoder which eventually gives me a set of addresses which happen to match my disassembled code. I guess for a sanity check I could watch the CPU on a PET or Apple][ since I do have the full code listings for those. > Too bad you're not local. I could make you a good deal on a bigger > 16500B system. I have more of those than I need. Unfortunately the > cost to ship one is close to or may even exceed their current market > value, just within the US. Indeed, looking at e*ay there's an almost-complete 1670G in the US with working hard drive that appears to 'just' be missing the pods/grabbers. If the shipping and import costs are correct the whole thing would cost me ukp250. For ukp100 less than that I can get a complete 1663A in the UK. I'm amazed I don't appear to know anyone in the UK with a spare one for sale :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 2 13:08:21 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2017 19:08:21 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: <276d8d61-610a-4d80-a789-8bd988c7a76b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 02/02/2017 06:50, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >> An HP 1660 or 1670 series self-contained portable logic analyzer >> might be nice to pick up if you can get a decent deal on one. The >> main limitation of the 1660 series is that the sample depth is only >> 4K samples per channel. The 1670 series offers deeper sample depths, >> and they may sell at a higher price as a result. And of course a >> sub-model with more channels is better than one with fewer channels. > > The problem with used logic analyzers is that the prices can vary > widely. My 1663 was purchased from eBay for $47 shipped, was clearly > from a rental service, as it was complete; nothing missing. Nice! It seems that there's only one seller one e*ay uk selling ex-MOD units. There's actually 3 different IDs but the writeups look similar and the location's the same so... > I use an LA less than a 'scope, so the price is right for me. Mostly, > I'm interested in looking at peripheral device timing, so it's perfect > for the occasional head-scratcher. My Tek 2225 scope is getting a lot of use on this project, but because I have zero documentation there's an awful lot of unknowns so following a signal around the board should be easier with an LA. > I don't know where you're located, but if you're in a region with an > Electro Rent depot, you might inquire to see if they turn their old gear > over to an auctioneer. I'm in the increasingly-isolationist and possibly soon to be ringfenced UK. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 2 13:11:13 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2017 19:11:13 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 02/02/2017 18:43, "Fritz Mueller" wrote: > I bought a used 1662 off eBay for cheap, and it has been indispensable for the > work I've been doing on a PDP-11. I think the external clock is often a > pretty critical feature in being able to sensibly interpret traces. > Sophisticated triggering is also very useful for catching a suspected > misbehaving chip in the act. > > I had considered some of the more modern USB options at the time because it > seemed they would be convenient, but in the end I opted for a used old-school > tool because it had the features I needed at less actual cost. I have not > regretted the decision -- super useful tool! Cheers Fritz, given that I'll only ever be working on this era kit I too think the old-skool approach might be better. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Feb 2 13:15:34 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 12:15:34 -0700 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> References: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Feb 2, 2017, at 1:41 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> From: Phil Blundell >> >>> I suspect it would probably not be all that hard to write some >>> sort of preprocessor to convert such code >> >> Really? Check out: >> >> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V6/usr/sys/ken/pipe.c >> >> (Needless to say, none of the 'int *' things are actually pointers to >> integers!) >> >> In particular, what will lines like this: >> >> sleep(ip+2, PPIPE); >> >> do, depending on what 'ip' is declared as? > > If "ip" is an int *, it would pass the address in ip plus 2 * 2. If ip is actually the address of some struct, then hopefully that address offset by 4 is a meaningful address. I'm guessing that the 2 in there represents sizeof(foo)/sizeof(int). Right? In this case it doesn't matter, so long as it is consistent. Some math will happen and produce some number. The pointer is never dereferenced. sleep takes a sleep channel to sleep on. This channel is a unique cookie that's implemented as the address of some struct (or some offset into it in this case). Elsewhere in the code there's a wakeup(ip+2) which will wakeup the sleeper. So long as ip+2 is the same both places, we're good. Well, and so long as nothing else accidentally evaluates to this same value. This scheme is still used in at least modern BSDs, though it has grown a bazillion variants. Warner From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Feb 2 13:15:59 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 11:15:59 -0800 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> References: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8c17dc50-f71b-437c-624f-d021955e8d5d@jwsss.com> On 2/2/2017 10:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Feb 2, 2017, at 1:41 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> From: Phil Blundell >>> I suspect it would probably not be all that hard to write some >>> sort of preprocessor to convert such code >> Really? Check out: >> >> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V6/usr/sys/ken/pipe.c >> >> (Needless to say, none of the 'int *' things are actually pointers to >> integers!) >> >> In particular, what will lines like this: >> >> sleep(ip+2, PPIPE); >> >> do, depending on what 'ip' is declared as? > If "ip" is an int *, it would pass the address in ip plus 2 * 2. If ip is actually the address of some struct, then hopefully that address offset by 4 is a meaningful address. I'm guessing that the 2 in there represents sizeof(foo)/sizeof(int). Right? > > paul The listings I've read of early unix have assembly files, mixed c + assembly, and in this case ip is register *ip; so things get to be quite a lot of fun. BTW I recall seeing assembly in the compiler phases as well as the system code, so things require a lot of the code between the assembly interface and the C to line up. Not sure if gcc does that, or if the conventions between early unix and gcc would line up or not. There are also wake calls as well with ip+1 as a parameter, FWIW. I've not gone hunting to what those calls do. I'd need to read the sleep and wake code, which may be assembly. More useful parts of the puzzle to know. thanks Jim From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 13:32:19 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 14:32:19 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <8c17dc50-f71b-437c-624f-d021955e8d5d@jwsss.com> References: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> <8c17dc50-f71b-437c-624f-d021955e8d5d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: All this talk about compatibility...was there ever UNIX made for the PDP 11/40 and RL02, or was it only run on RK05? Wouldn't all of the C and wake calls, etc issues have been solved then? Why is this an issue now? I am largely ignorant to the details but from 20000 feet it would seem like this would have been taken care of long ago. No need for pre-processing code, etc. Please educate me if I am wrong, just curious. Bill Degnan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 2 13:36:41 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 11:36:41 -0800 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> <8c17dc50-f71b-437c-624f-d021955e8d5d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: DEC V7m comes to mind. On 2/2/17 11:32 AM, william degnan wrote: > All this talk about compatibility...was there ever UNIX made for the PDP > 11/40 and RL02, or was it only run on RK05? Wouldn't all of the C and wake > calls, etc issues have been solved then? Why is this an issue now? I am > largely ignorant to the details but from 20000 feet it would seem like this > would have been taken care of long ago. No need for pre-processing code, > etc. Please educate me if I am wrong, just curious. > > Bill Degnan > From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 13:38:15 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 14:38:15 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> <8c17dc50-f71b-437c-624f-d021955e8d5d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > > > On 2/2/17 11:32 AM, william degnan wrote: > > All this talk about compatibility...was there ever UNIX made for the PDP > > 11/40 and RL02, or was it only run on RK05? Wouldn't all of the C and > wake > > calls, etc issues have been solved then? Why is this an issue now? I am > > largely ignorant to the details but from 20000 feet it would seem like > this > > would have been taken care of long ago. No need for pre-processing code, > > etc. Please educate me if I am wrong, just curious. > > > > Bill Degnan > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > DEC V7m comes to mind. Yes, but in 1974 that was not an option. I guess the 74-77 version of UNIX that would have been installed on a PDP 11/40 would have been made for RK05 drives. It would prob be worth the effort to find a version of UNIX 6 for that media and port to RL02, rather than take a vanilla UNIX 6 and try to make it work on RL02's and re-solve all of the problems that have already been solved for the RK05 version. AND the RL02 is larger so moving a multi-disk UNIX for RK05 disks/partition would not be confined by space. b From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 13:40:20 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 19:40:20 +0000 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> <8c17dc50-f71b-437c-624f-d021955e8d5d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:38 PM, william degnan wrote: >> >> >> On 2/2/17 11:32 AM, william degnan wrote: >> > All this talk about compatibility...was there ever UNIX made for the PDP >> > 11/40 and RL02, or was it only run on RK05? Wouldn't all of the C and >> wake >> > calls, etc issues have been solved then? Why is this an issue now? I am >> > largely ignorant to the details but from 20000 feet it would seem like >> this >> > would have been taken care of long ago. No need for pre-processing code, >> > etc. Please educate me if I am wrong, just curious. >> > >> > Bill Degnan >> > >> >> > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> DEC V7m comes to mind. > > > Yes, but in 1974 that was not an option. I guess the 74-77 version of UNIX I am just wondering where on earth you'd find an RL02 in 1974. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 13:49:33 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 14:49:33 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> <8c17dc50-f71b-437c-624f-d021955e8d5d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:38 PM, william degnan > wrote: > >> > >> > >> On 2/2/17 11:32 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> > All this talk about compatibility...was there ever UNIX made for the > PDP > >> > 11/40 and RL02, or was it only run on RK05? Wouldn't all of the C and > >> wake > >> > calls, etc issues have been solved then? Why is this an issue now? > I am > >> > largely ignorant to the details but from 20000 feet it would seem like > >> this > >> > would have been taken care of long ago. No need for pre-processing > code, > >> > etc. Please educate me if I am wrong, just curious. > >> > > >> > Bill Degnan > >> > > >> > >> > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > >> DEC V7m comes to mind. > > > > > > Yes, but in 1974 that was not an option. I guess the 74-77 version of > UNIX > > I am just wondering where on earth you'd find an RL02 in 1974. > > -tony > You wouldn't ... so what I am saying is the issues associated with getting UNIX running on a PDP 11/40 would have been addressed on the RK05 version, a drive that was available then. Further, it'd be easier in my opinion to port *that* version, the RK05 version to RL02 rather than fix a vanilla UNIX 6 and port that to RL02. b From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Feb 2 13:53:41 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 11:53:41 -0800 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> <8c17dc50-f71b-437c-624f-d021955e8d5d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 2/2/2017 11:40 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:38 PM, william degnan wrote: >>> >>> On 2/2/17 11:32 AM, william degnan wrote: >>>> All this talk about compatibility...was there ever UNIX made for the PDP >>>> 11/40 and RL02, or was it only run on RK05? Wouldn't all of the C and >>> wake >>>> calls, etc issues have been solved then? Why is this an issue now? I am >>>> largely ignorant to the details but from 20000 feet it would seem like >>> this >>>> would have been taken care of long ago. No need for pre-processing code, >>>> etc. Please educate me if I am wrong, just curious. >>>> >>>> Bill Degnan >>>> >>> >> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> DEC V7m comes to mind. >> >> Yes, but in 1974 that was not an option. I guess the 74-77 version of UNIX > I am just wondering where on earth you'd find an RL02 in 1974. > > -tony Western Dynex had 2.5mb removable over 2.5mb in 71. https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_westernDyntionManualRevPOct78_13256055 Last version at link above, model 6000 is essentially an RL02. Came in 12, 18 and 24 sector (strapable). I think it could be hooked up to DEC as the interface was pretty much the same. thanks Jim From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Feb 2 13:55:29 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 11:55:29 -0800 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> <8c17dc50-f71b-437c-624f-d021955e8d5d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51F04CED-DE09-4F8B-8C8B-BAC65B16013F@shiresoft.com> > On Feb 2, 2017, at 11:38 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> >> >> On 2/2/17 11:32 AM, william degnan wrote: >>> All this talk about compatibility...was there ever UNIX made for the PDP >>> 11/40 and RL02, or was it only run on RK05? Wouldn't all of the C and >> wake >>> calls, etc issues have been solved then? Why is this an issue now? I am >>> largely ignorant to the details but from 20000 feet it would seem like >> this >>> would have been taken care of long ago. No need for pre-processing code, >>> etc. Please educate me if I am wrong, just curious. >>> >>> Bill Degnan >>> >> >> > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> DEC V7m comes to mind. > > > Yes, but in 1974 that was not an option. I guess the 74-77 version of UNIX > that would have been installed on a PDP 11/40 would have been made for RK05 > drives. It would prob be worth the effort to find a version of UNIX 6 for > that media and port to RL02, rather than take a vanilla UNIX 6 and try to > make it work on RL02's and re-solve all of the problems that have already > been solved for the RK05 version. AND the RL02 is larger so moving a > multi-disk UNIX for RK05 disks/partition would not be confined by space. My first exposure to Unix was in 1977. We were running v6 on a *new* PDP-11/34 with 4 RK05 drives. At time time DZ11?s were in short supply so we (my room mate and I) built a z80 terminal concentrator so that we could run 16 terminals off of the 11/34. I wrote the code on the z80 and he wrote the Unix driver. We ended up re-working the protocol several times because we kept loosing control packets. It wasn?t until later that we discovered that the DL11 were were using to communicate with the z80 would not stay in 8-bit mode?we replaced the DL11 and everything was solid. TTFN - Guy From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Feb 2 14:07:48 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 15:07:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170202200748.46CDB18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > was there ever UNIX made for the PDP 11/40 and RL02, or was it only run > on RK05? Wouldn't all of the C and wake calls, etc issues have been > solved then? You're mixing up two _TOTALLY_ different things. Unix V6 will happily run on _ANY_ block device, all you need to do is write a driver for it. The rest of Unix V6 doesn't know ^%$^%$ about the device, all it know is that there's this thing that can store, and read back, blocks 0-N. The _only_ interface between the rest of Unix, and the driver, is through a file called c.c which just contains entries for functions to read and write blocks, etc. (You can even run Unix - painfully - on a DECTape drive.) Adding support for RL drives to Unix V6 involves i) writing an RL driver, and ii) editing that file c.c to add _one line in a table_ to hook the driver into the rest of the OS. (And there's a edit to something called l.s which holds interrupt vectors, to all the RL vector.) THAT'S IT. Editing c.c and l.s was No Big Deal. To customize Unix to one's particular hardware configuration, you _had_ to change those two files, and every V6 site in the known universe tweaked those files. _WITHOUT EXCEPTION_. Unix V6 doesn't give a *&^*&^* what disk drives its using. As long as there's a driver for the controller. The stuff about wake() calls is a totally different subject, it's all about how the code in V6 Unix cuts a lot of 'C' corners (e.g. using an 'int *' as a pointer to a struct - something that would horrify modern compilers) because it's in very early C. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 14:12:19 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 15:12:19 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170202200748.46CDB18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170202200748.46CDB18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > was there ever UNIX made for the PDP 11/40 and RL02, or was it only > run > > on RK05? Wouldn't all of the C and wake calls, etc issues have been > > solved then? > > You're mixing up two _TOTALLY_ different things. > > > Unix V6 will happily run on _ANY_ block device, all you need to do is > write a > driver for it. The rest of Unix V6 doesn't know ^%$^%$ about the device, > all > it know is that there's this thing that can store, and read back, blocks > 0-N. > The _only_ interface between the rest of Unix, and the driver, is through a > file called c.c which just contains entries for functions to read and write > blocks, etc. > > (You can even run Unix - painfully - on a DECTape drive.) > > Adding support for RL drives to Unix V6 involves i) writing an RL driver, > and > ii) editing that file c.c to add _one line in a table_ to hook the driver > into the rest of the OS. (And there's a edit to something called l.s which > holds interrupt vectors, to all the RL vector.) THAT'S IT. > > Editing c.c and l.s was No Big Deal. To customize Unix to one's particular > hardware configuration, you _had_ to change those two files, and every V6 > site in the known universe tweaked those files. _WITHOUT EXCEPTION_. > > Unix V6 doesn't give a *&^*&^* what disk drives its using. As long as > there's > a driver for the controller. > > > The stuff about wake() calls is a totally different subject, it's all about > how the code in V6 Unix cuts a lot of 'C' corners (e.g. using an 'int *' > as a > pointer to a struct - something that would horrify modern compilers) > because > it's in very early C. > > Noel > thanks for the explanation. Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Feb 2 14:20:47 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 15:20:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170202202047.2719118C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Jim Stephens > The listings I've read of early unix have ... mixed c + assembly Not V6 (the subject of the current discussion); the C compiler of that era couldn't inline assembler. _ALL_ of the assembler in V6 is in one of _two_ files: l.s - per system, hardware configuration dependent m40.s - Startup, and machine language support for all low-level OS or functions such as stack switching, etc; the latter option m45.s supported both the -11/45 and -11/70 Noel From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 14:52:54 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 12:52:54 -0800 Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: WTF did I just read. On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you think that, you _really_ need to read 3676. >> > > Nobody's going to read that the way that it is formatted. > > If they expect people to read it, they will have to punch it up, with > fonts, colors, background images and textures, formats, animated emojis, > audio accompaniment, and embedded videos. > > How can any message be taken seriously without any dancing kangaroos and > yodelling jellyfish? > Why is it being disseminated as a text file, instead of as a Youtube video? > > Surely, the new administration's education policies will bring an end to > the arrogance of "literates" from insulting the intelligence of the voting > public of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party. > > > Since there are still a rare few machines without the appropriate > hardware, smell-o-vision will have to remain optional. > But, the current combined policies at MICROS~1 and Apple of deprecating > any and all hardare and software more than six months old should fix that. > That will also solve the fear that a system might still be in use after > its printer ink or smell-o-vision supplies are used up. > (microbots in solution in printer ink can complete the process of > preventing scofflaws from refilling printer ink) > > Besides, it is clearly not in the best interests of manufacturing in > USA^H^H^HChina to permit such legacy relics to be permitted to continue to > exist. Delegalization of obsolete computers will be coming soon, > unfortunately, federal agents have had some difficulty controlling the > content of the hundreds of machines that have the capability of > disconnecting from the interweb. Replacing all NEMA connectors with > Micro-USB should help. > > > [MiniTru clarification: The appropriate executive orders were issued long > ago, when Bill Gates and Steve Jobs invented the first computer.] > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 2 13:56:56 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2017 14:56:56 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> <8c17dc50-f71b-437c-624f-d021955e8d5d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4f98c159-a48b-41e4-e954-0608c5353a02@verizon.net> On 2/2/17 2:32 PM, william degnan wrote: > All this talk about compatibility...was there ever UNIX made for the PDP > 11/40 and RL02, or was it only run on RK05? Wouldn't all of the C and wake > calls, etc issues have been solved then? Why is this an issue now? I am > largely ignorant to the details but from 20000 feet it would seem like this > would have been taken care of long ago. No need for pre-processing code, > etc. Please educate me if I am wrong, just curious. > > Bill Degnan > for laughs I wandered over to: http://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/mirrors/minnie.tuhs.org/PDP-11/Boot_Images/ To see if the copy of V6 on RL02 is still there.... yep it is. and it runs on a 11/23 just fine as thanks to someone I have a copy on RL02 that I boot from time to time. Seems the problem is solved. If memory serves it cannot use more than 256K even if the machine is Q22. Allison From cctalk at snarc.net Thu Feb 2 15:03:34 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 16:03:34 -0500 Subject: VCF East online ticketing is open Message-ID: <6e0800d3-ff67-d64a-1f30-fd7d92ad0744@snarc.net> Get your tickets now. Save time at the show. http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-east/tickets/ ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 2 15:23:52 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 13:23:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote: > WTF did I just read. An agreement with Mouse about plain-text, by sarcastically objecting to use of plain text in the RFC, segueing into an off-the-wall rant objecting to planned obsolescence. It was inspired by finding only Youtube videos for some simple information, end of support for XP, involuntary Win7 to Win10 upgrade, etc. I intended it to be absurd enough to provide some humor. It apparently failed at that. Sorry. > On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> If you think that, you _really_ need to read 3676. >>> >> >> Nobody's going to read that the way that it is formatted. >> >> If they expect people to read it, they will have to punch it up, with >> fonts, colors, background images and textures, formats, animated emojis, >> audio accompaniment, and embedded videos. >> >> How can any message be taken seriously without any dancing kangaroos and >> yodelling jellyfish? >> Why is it being disseminated as a text file, instead of as a Youtube video? >> >> Surely, the new administration's education policies will bring an end to >> the arrogance of "literates" from insulting the intelligence of the voting >> public of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party. >> >> >> Since there are still a rare few machines without the appropriate >> hardware, smell-o-vision will have to remain optional. >> But, the current combined policies at MICROS~1 and Apple of deprecating >> any and all hardare and software more than six months old should fix that. >> That will also solve the fear that a system might still be in use after >> its printer ink or smell-o-vision supplies are used up. >> (microbots in solution in printer ink can complete the process of >> preventing scofflaws from refilling printer ink) >> >> Besides, it is clearly not in the best interests of manufacturing in >> USA^H^H^HChina to permit such legacy relics to be permitted to continue to >> exist. Delegalization of obsolete computers will be coming soon, >> unfortunately, federal agents have had some difficulty controlling the >> content of the hundreds of machines that have the capability of >> disconnecting from the interweb. Replacing all NEMA connectors with >> Micro-USB should help. >> >> >> [MiniTru clarification: The appropriate executive orders were issued long >> ago, when Bill Gates and Steve Jobs invented the first computer.] >> >> >> > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com From isking at uw.edu Thu Feb 2 15:43:17 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 13:43:17 -0800 Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote: > >> WTF did I just read. >> > > An agreement with Mouse about plain-text, by sarcastically > objecting to use of plain text in the RFC, segueing into an > off-the-wall rant objecting to planned obsolescence. > > It was inspired by finding only Youtube videos for some simple > information, end of support for XP, involuntary Win7 to Win10 upgrade, etc. > > I intended it to be absurd enough to provide some humor. > It apparently failed at that. > Sorry. > > Fred, you have to turn it up to 11 - after all, consider your competition these days in the domain of absurdity. -- Ian (the other one - we are everywhere) -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 15:45:34 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 16:45:34 -0500 Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <9BD2F85A6E6B4D059BD1F66EAF4B18CD@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:23 PM Subject: Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request at classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] > On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote: >> WTF did I just read. > > An agreement with Mouse about plain-text, by sarcastically > objecting to use of plain text in the RFC, segueing into an > off-the-wall rant objecting to planned obsolescence. > > It was inspired by finding only Youtube videos for some simple > information, end of support for XP, involuntary Win7 to Win10 upgrade, > etc. > > I intended it to be absurd enough to provide some humor. > It apparently failed at that. > Sorry. > ---------------------- Worked for me. ;-) m From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 16:13:27 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 17:13:27 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <4f98c159-a48b-41e4-e954-0608c5353a02@verizon.net> References: <20170202184134.D5AB218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <401AF7DE-60FD-44F9-8907-513C19A16A26@comcast.net> <8c17dc50-f71b-437c-624f-d021955e8d5d@jwsss.com> <4f98c159-a48b-41e4-e954-0608c5353a02@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 2:56 PM, allison wrote: > On 2/2/17 2:32 PM, william degnan wrote: > >> All this talk about compatibility...was there ever UNIX made for the PDP >> 11/40 and RL02, or was it only run on RK05? Wouldn't all of the C and >> wake >> calls, etc issues have been solved then? Why is this an issue now? I am >> largely ignorant to the details but from 20000 feet it would seem like >> this >> would have been taken care of long ago. No need for pre-processing code, >> etc. Please educate me if I am wrong, just curious. >> >> Bill Degnan >> >> for laughs I wandered over to: > > http://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/mirrors/minnie.tuhs.org/PDP-11/Boot_Images/ > > To see if the copy of V6 on RL02 is still there.... yep it is. and it > runs on a 11/23 just fine > as thanks to someone I have a copy on RL02 that I boot from time to time. > > Seems the problem is solved. If memory serves it cannot use more than > 256K even if the > machine is Q22. > > Allison > Thanks. At this point, with a bad EIS board, there's not much I can do, but I can use this in simH, and read up and get educated. Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 2 16:21:57 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 14:21:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: >> I intended it to be absurd enough to provide some humor. >> It apparently failed at that. >> Sorry. On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian S. King wrote: >> Fred, you have to turn it up to 11 - after all, consider your competition > these days in the domain of absurdity. It wouldn't be so bad, if people just said that my writing was bad. Frankly, it SCARES me that that wasn't absurd enough! Reality is weirder than the most ridiculous crap that I could come up with? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Feb 2 16:28:29 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 17:28:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170202222829.C073518C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Allison > for laughs I wandered over to: > To see if the copy of V6 on RL02 is still there.... yep it is. There are actually plenty of builds out there that run on RL11s, e.g.: http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/other/Tim_Shoppa_v6/ includes "A V6 RL02 bootable on a 11/23. Kernel is built for a 11/23, 2 RL02's, and 2 RX02's"; and my V6, running under Ersatz-11, is also an RL-based system. The real issue with mixing and matching kernels and disks is that since the RL was not a standard device (as far as 'mkconf' went), the RL's can have different major device numbers on different systems. This does not stop the system from _booting_, since internally there will be consistency, but consistency between the OS and file system is another matter: e.g. trying to mount another drive (or any other use of /dev/rl? or /dev/rrl?) may not work, since the device inodes for /dev/rl? might have the wrong major device numbers in them. > and it runs on a 11/23 just fine Must be a slightly modified V6 - totally stock V6 will panic when it can't find a clock (unless there's a BDV11), or NXM when it tries to touch the switch register. And for machines with no BDV11, I had to turn the clock off while booting; the first time I tried to boot on a simulated 11/23, my totaly stock vanilla V6 apparently took a timer interrupt during the boot process and went wayyyy South, totally smashing the file system in the process. Not sure how the one above dealt with this... Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 16:59:09 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 15:59:09 -0700 Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 3:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Reality is weirder than the most ridiculous crap that I could come up with? > Yes. Satire is dead. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Feb 2 17:21:04 2017 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 15:21:04 -0800 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 2, 2017, at 10:43 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > I bought a used 1662 off eBay for cheap, and it has been indispensable for the work I've been doing on a PDP-11. I think the external clock is often a pretty critical feature in being able to sensibly interpret traces. Sophisticated triggering is also very useful for catching a suspected misbehaving chip in the act. > > I had considered some of the more modern USB options at the time because it seemed they would be convenient, but in the end I opted for a used old-school tool because it had the features I needed at less actual cost. I have not regretted the decision -- super useful tool! My HP 1660CS with Ethernet has ensured I?m not even remotely interested in one of the USB options, between having 136 channels and way higher bandwidth. Even one of the models without Ethernet would be worthwhile since they?re straightforward to interface with via serial or GPIB. -- Chris From brain at jbrain.com Thu Feb 2 17:49:57 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 17:49:57 -0600 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515d352e-f3cc-2433-b0c0-ddf0910794a0@jbrain.com> On 2/2/2017 5:21 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > On Feb 2, 2017, at 10:43 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: >> I bought a used 1662 off eBay for cheap, and it has been indispensable for the work I've been doing on a PDP-11. I think the external clock is often a pretty critical feature in being able to sensibly interpret traces. Sophisticated triggering is also very useful for catching a suspected misbehaving chip in the act. >> >> I had considered some of the more modern USB options at the time because it seemed they would be convenient, but in the end I opted for a used old-school tool because it had the features I needed at less actual cost. I have not regretted the decision -- super useful tool! > My HP 1660CS with Ethernet has ensured I?m not even remotely interested in one of the USB options, between having 136 channels and way higher bandwidth. > > Even one of the models without Ethernet would be worthwhile since they?re straightforward to interface with via serial or GPIB. > > -- Chris > Hmm, I'm not sure I'd say that. I have a 1650, but the memory depth is not enough to quickly grab issues. A Logic or Logic 16 can dump a ton of data into the PC, where it is easy to look at. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 2 18:01:27 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 00:01:27 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: <515d352e-f3cc-2433-b0c0-ddf0910794a0@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 02/02/2017 23:49, "Jim Brain" wrote: > On 2/2/2017 5:21 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: >> On Feb 2, 2017, at 10:43 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: >>> I bought a used 1662 off eBay for cheap, and it has been indispensable for >>> the work I've been doing on a PDP-11. I think the external clock is often a >>> pretty critical feature in being able to sensibly interpret traces. >>> Sophisticated triggering is also very useful for catching a suspected >>> misbehaving chip in the act. >>> >>> I had considered some of the more modern USB options at the time because it >>> seemed they would be convenient, but in the end I opted for a used >>> old-school tool because it had the features I needed at less actual cost. I >>> have not regretted the decision -- super useful tool! >> My HP 1660CS with Ethernet has ensured I?m not even remotely interested in >> one of the USB options, between having 136 channels and way higher bandwidth. >> >> Even one of the models without Ethernet would be worthwhile since they?re >> straightforward to interface with via serial or GPIB. >> >> -- Chris >> > > Hmm, I'm not sure I'd say that. I have a 1650, but the memory depth is > not enough to quickly grab issues. A Logic or Logic 16 can dump a ton > of data into the PC, where it is easy to look at. My chinese clone is of a Logic 16, I couldn't afford a genuine one since they're ukp500 at least. Obviously caveat emptor, but that's out of my league as a hobbyist. Currently looking at HP1670G's in the US since they're reasonable assuming the shipping and import charges are as quoted. Also a fellow collector is loaning me a zeroplus 16 channel to try so that's another avenue to explore, and there's the DSLogic Pro too which was supposed to be open hardware/open source but development on that one stalled in 2015 and the current lot on e*ay seem to be clones too. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 2 18:24:22 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 16:24:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote: > WTF did I just read. > Fred in absolutely rare form. I nearly choked on coffee at the "yodeling jellyfish" bit. I'd give him fake internet points if I could. :) Also, QUIT TOP POSTING. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From isking at uw.edu Thu Feb 2 19:51:27 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 17:51:27 -0800 Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:24 PM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote: > > WTF did I just read. >> >> Fred in absolutely rare form. I nearly choked on coffee at the "yodeling > jellyfish" bit. I'd give him fake internet points if I could. :) > > Also, QUIT TOP POSTING. > > Be gentle, Gene. Ian works for the Evil Ex-Empire and is required as a term of his indenture to use Outhouse-look, part of the Microsoft Orifice suite of floating turds. Even if you set it to do the right thing, it will randomly choose to once again do the Microsoft Thing. -- Ian (obviously the other one again) > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From isking at uw.edu Thu Feb 2 19:59:33 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 17:59:33 -0800 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: <515d352e-f3cc-2433-b0c0-ddf0910794a0@jbrain.com> Message-ID: OK, I'm going to give the minimalist/cheap-bastard perspective. I've done some solid troubleshooting with my HP 1630G. Sure, it only has a 1K event memory, but the triggering options are pretty flexible. With some creativity, you can focus on the behavior you need to observe. It can self-clock or externally clock, with three separate clock inputs. I've used it to find some pretty obscure race conditions (one-shots are evil!) and glitches. Full disclosure: I do also have a really nice 16700-series I got from Glen Slick, but for some things the easy setup of the 1630G wins. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 20:28:55 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 18:28:55 -0800 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: <515d352e-f3cc-2433-b0c0-ddf0910794a0@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <99d92ef6-7d9d-e1bc-0a23-884a10d2bbcb@sydex.com> On 02/02/2017 05:59 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > OK, I'm going to give the minimalist/cheap-bastard perspective. I've > done some solid troubleshooting with my HP 1630G. Sure, it only has a > 1K event memory, but the triggering options are pretty flexible. > With some creativity, you can focus on the behavior you need to > observe. It can self-clock or externally clock, with three separate > clock inputs. I've used it to find some pretty obscure race > conditions (one-shots are evil!) and glitches. No, you're a really cheap bastard if you use a PC printer port as your logic analyzer. Believe it or not, there's software out there for that. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 2 20:43:30 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 19:43:30 -0700 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: <99d92ef6-7d9d-e1bc-0a23-884a10d2bbcb@sydex.com> References: <515d352e-f3cc-2433-b0c0-ddf0910794a0@jbrain.com> <99d92ef6-7d9d-e1bc-0a23-884a10d2bbcb@sydex.com> Message-ID: <95bc511c-76c2-084b-99b0-0f7d40838412@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/2/2017 7:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 02/02/2017 05:59 PM, Ian S. King wrote: >> OK, I'm going to give the minimalist/cheap-bastard perspective. I've >> done some solid troubleshooting with my HP 1630G. Sure, it only has a >> 1K event memory, but the triggering options are pretty flexible. >> With some creativity, you can focus on the behavior you need to >> observe. It can self-clock or externally clock, with three separate >> clock inputs. I've used it to find some pretty obscure race >> conditions (one-shots are evil!) and glitches. > > No, you're a really cheap bastard if you use a PC printer port as your > logic analyzer. Believe it or not, there's software out there for that. > > --Chuck I say if it meets your needs, go for it. Ben. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Feb 2 22:06:30 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 23:06:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170203040630.B81F318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Allison > for laughs I wandered over to: > http://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/mirrors/minnie.tuhs.org/PDP-11/Boot_Images/ > To see if the copy of V6 on RL02 is still there.... yep it is. and it > runs on a 11/23 just fine Yes, that's another copy of the Shoppa disk. So, I looked at that system, to see how it dealt with the clock issue on an 11/23 (in /sys/ken/main.c, if anyone else is interested). While looking, I noticed something that made it extremely unlikely that it would boot on an 11/40. Sure enough, attempting to boot the /unix on it on a (simulated) -11/40 blows out. There are a couple of other unix loads on that pack image (oldunix, unix.tmp, etc), but all the ones I looked at had the same issue (only tried booting the 'unix' one, though); they're probably all for the same machine, so have the same configuration issue. V6 Unix was pretty persnickety about the hardware configuration it ran on; while it was possible to create builds that would run on almost any configuration, on 'vanilla' V6 that really only applies to the /40/45/70 era. And even then you still had to re-build the system to match your actual hardware configuration, almost all the time. The advent of the /23 (with no CSW, and no KW11-L/P), made things more complicated. (The clock is pretty key - Unix needs one - several things, e.g. parts of the teletype drivers, require real-time delays provided by the clock. I've never tried to run Unix without a working clock, I'm not sure if it would run without slowly grinding to a halt as stuff waited for clocks delays that never happened.( With a little work, a suite of 'universal boot' versions (one for each type of disk controller - RK05/RL02/RX02 etc) could have been created that would boot and run on any pretty much CPU/etc configuration - at least, well enough to build one that did exactly match the hardware configuration at hand. (The one on the Shoppa disk is close, from what I could see.) I don't think anyone ever bothered, though (in part because it was much more of a PITA to test them all, BITD, with only real hardware). Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 22:19:59 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 23:19:59 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170203040630.B81F318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170203040630.B81F318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 11:06 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Allison > > > for laughs I wandered over to: > > http://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/mirrors/minnie.tuhs.org/PDP- > 11/Boot_Images/ > > To see if the copy of V6 on RL02 is still there.... yep it is. and > it > > runs on a 11/23 just fine > > Yes, that's another copy of the Shoppa disk. > > So, I looked at that system, to see how it dealt with the clock issue on an > 11/23 (in /sys/ken/main.c, if anyone else is interested). While looking, I > noticed something that made it extremely unlikely that it would boot on an > 11/40. Sure enough, attempting to boot the /unix on it on a (simulated) > -11/40 > blows out. > > There are a couple of other unix loads on that pack image (oldunix, > unix.tmp, > etc), but all the ones I looked at had the same issue (only tried booting > the > 'unix' one, though); they're probably all for the same machine, so have the > same configuration issue. > > > V6 Unix was pretty persnickety about the hardware configuration it ran on; > while it was possible to create builds that would run on almost any > configuration, on 'vanilla' V6 that really only applies to the /40/45/70 > era. And even then you still had to re-build the system to match your > actual > hardware configuration, almost all the time. > > The advent of the /23 (with no CSW, and no KW11-L/P), made things more > complicated. (The clock is pretty key - Unix needs one - several things, > e.g. parts of the teletype drivers, require real-time delays provided by > the > clock. I've never tried to run Unix without a working clock, I'm not sure > if > it would run without slowly grinding to a halt as stuff waited for clocks > delays that never happened.( > > With a little work, a suite of 'universal boot' versions (one for each > type of > disk controller - RK05/RL02/RX02 etc) could have been created that would > boot > and run on any pretty much CPU/etc configuration - at least, well enough to > build one that did exactly match the hardware configuration at hand. (The > one > on the Shoppa disk is close, from what I could see.) > > I don't think anyone ever bothered, though (in part because it was much > more > of a PITA to test them all, BITD, with only real hardware). > > Noel > Well I must say my focus has been on just getting an 11/40 hardware working enough to be a candidate for any flavor of UNIX, then figure out the details, but this thread has been an education. I suppose I should be happy with RT-11 given my circumstances. Too bad I have not been able to get my EIS running. I tried a number of things so far. I may have to shot gun approach the caps and such in an effort to repair. It's not possible with the 3 over the back cables to put the 7238 on a riser card to probe signals as easily. I have downloaded the docs associated with this card. Also, following your directions I had no issues getting V5 and V7 running in simH. I am curious to see what OS's run on an 11/40 without the EIS card other than RT-11. I am researching this. I have always wanted to learn more about batch-11. b From jsw at ieee.org Fri Feb 3 00:00:05 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 00:00:05 -0600 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170203040630.B81F318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170203040630.B81F318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Feb 2, 2017, at 10:06 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > ,,,,,, > The advent of the /23 (with no CSW, and no KW11-L/P), made things more > complicated. (The clock is pretty key - Unix needs one - several things, > e.g. parts of the teletype drivers, require real-time delays provided by the > clock. I've never tried to run Unix without a working clock, I'm not sure if > it would run without slowly grinding to a halt as stuff waited for clocks > delays that never happened.( > > Of course many preemptive OS?es use clock or other interrupts to drive their task schedulers. I recall a situation in which the LTC was buggy or someone just switched it off. The OS didn?t crash, but its responsiveness was rather odd. Disk and perhaps some terminal IO kept the scheduler going. With many users we barely noticed a difference, but when there were only 1 or 2 users, it just kind of crept slowly along. Someone finally noticed the timestamps on files never changed. Jerry jsw at ieee.org From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Feb 3 01:55:05 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 08:55:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: Please identify this circuit board In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A6A2@mail.bensene.com> <1614A321-CB24-47E2-9267-4E44B42B0B34@comcast.net>, , Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, dwight wrote: > Are you sure the cores are transformers and not memory > cores? Yes, because (ROM) memory would have *many* wires through each core / around each transformer rod. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Feb 3 02:01:44 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 09:01:44 +0100 (CET) Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Adrian Graham wrote: > is fixed 5v. Also you'd expect that sampling at four times the clock speed > (they'll both do 25Mhz with 6 channels) then every pulse would be picked up. No, because the pulse length may be far inferiour to the sample clock rate. You may also need to capture signal transitions instead of signal levels (i.e. you record a "pulse" if there was a transition between two sample clock pulses). Christian From rwiker at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 02:03:52 2017 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 09:03:52 +0100 Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:51 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:24 PM, geneb wrote: > > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote: > > > > WTF did I just read. > >> > >> Fred in absolutely rare form. I nearly choked on coffee at the > "yodeling > > jellyfish" bit. I'd give him fake internet points if I could. :) > > > > Also, QUIT TOP POSTING. > > > > Be gentle, Gene. Ian works for the Evil Ex-Empire and is required as a > term of his indenture to use Outhouse-look, part of the Microsoft Orifice > suite of floating turds. Even if you set it to do the right thing, it will > randomly choose to once again do the Microsoft Thing. > -- Ian (obviously the other one again) > > I read that at first as "Ex-Evil Empire", which does not sound quite right. I have no problem with "Evil Ex-Empire", though. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Feb 3 02:55:19 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 08:55:19 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 03/02/2017 08:01, "Christian Corti" wrote: > On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Adrian Graham wrote: >> is fixed 5v. Also you'd expect that sampling at four times the clock speed >> (they'll both do 25Mhz with 6 channels) then every pulse would be picked up. > > No, because the pulse length may be far inferiour to the sample clock > rate. You may also need to capture signal transitions instead of signal > levels (i.e. you record a "pulse" if there was a transition between two > sample clock pulses). Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this specific case is that with 4 2764s right next to each other with a direct signal path between adjacent address and data pins that has a resistance of 0.5 ohms pin to pin surely I should be able to put a clip on each (for example) A4 address line and see the same pulse at all four channels? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 3 07:22:36 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 08:22:36 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170203040630.B81F318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9B416B41-D968-48D9-B751-BF13D4741BA9@comcast.net> > On Feb 2, 2017, at 11:19 PM, william degnan wrote: > > ... > I am curious to see what OS's run on an 11/40 without the EIS card other > than RT-11. I am researching this. I have always wanted to learn more > about batch-11. You mean DOS/BATCH? Yes, that would run on that machine, it's an 11/20 OS. So would the pre-Batch version of DOS-11 (V4). Another OS that would run on your machine (as well as an 11/20) would be RSTS-11 (V4, or I suppose V3 if you can find that), the predecessor of RSTS/E that didn't use the MMU. It may be that some flavors of RSX-11/M or /S can be built with no EIS, since it's supposed to be possible to build a non-MMU version at least of /S. But I don't know the specifics (no RSX experience). paul From Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de Fri Feb 3 07:08:35 2017 From: Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de (Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 13:08:35 +0000 Subject: HP Integral PC Accessories? Message-ID: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904374772C6C3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Hi, I am looking to swap or buy the following HP-Integral IPC (portable HP-UX box) interface boards: - HP-IL interface - 1 MB memory board Does anybody have a manual for the HP-IL interface board? Could offer HP 9000 interface or memory boards. Martin From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Feb 3 07:55:43 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 05:55:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian S. King wrote: > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:24 PM, geneb wrote: > >> On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote: >> >> WTF did I just read. >>> >>> Fred in absolutely rare form. I nearly choked on coffee at the "yodeling >> jellyfish" bit. I'd give him fake internet points if I could. :) >> >> Also, QUIT TOP POSTING. >> >> Be gentle, Gene. Ian works for the Evil Ex-Empire and is required as a > term of his indenture to use Outhouse-look, part of the Microsoft Orifice > suite of floating turds. Even if you set it to do the right thing, it will > randomly choose to once again do the Microsoft Thing. Sounds like an Intervention may be required. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Feb 3 07:57:22 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 08:57:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170203135722.1500718C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > my focus has been on just getting an 11/40 hardware working Rightly and properly so... > I suppose I should be happy with RT-11 given my circumstances. Unix really is a significant improvement, we really need to make sure you can run it. Don't worry about the OS image issue, I can crank them out like sausages, and we already have all the bits we need (V6 RL driver, bootstrap, etc). > It's not possible with the 3 over the back cables to put the 7238 on a > riser card to probe signals as easily. Really? DEC specified BC08R-01 cables, which _should_ be long enough to allow it to be put on an extender. Does your machine have the -01's, or have they been replaced with little shorty ones? If the latter, if you can't find any -01's, it should be possible to locate some generic 40-pin cables, which should work (old IDE cables should work, but not the new ones, which have a key that will prevent the connectors from going in, in this application). Also, it should not to be too hard to whip up some: the connectors and the flat cable are pretty easy to find - although not the ground-plane backed kind - do anyone know of a source for that? Anyway, the regular kind of flat cable ought to work well enough for debugging. Noel From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 09:27:07 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 15:27:07 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this specific case is that > with 4 2764s right next to each other with a direct signal path between > adjacent address and data pins that has a resistance of 0.5 ohms pin to pin > surely I should be able to put a clip on each (for example) A4 address line > and see the same pulse at all four channels? Yes, subject to the following unlikely cases : 1) There is a standing wave developed between the pins. Technically that trace is a transmission line. I have never heard it happen between ICs next to each other at 8-bit micro speeds though. 2) There is a bad connection (IC socket?) on one of the pins 3) If you have a very fast logic analyser you might be able to see the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a foot is about a nanosecond. So you are talking 10s of picoseconds delay). You will not see that with the sort of analyser you or I have :-) If you try your test with 4 of your logic analyser channels on the A4 pins of the EPROMs, I assume you get different traces for each channel -- that is what you are commenting on. What happens if you swap the logic analyser channels round? Incidentally, I'd better comment on the Logic Analysers I use. I use them a lot more than a 'scope, but that's because of what I generally need to do. 1) (Is is an LA?) The HP LogicDart. 3 Channels, 100MHz. No external clock facility. But it is pocket sized. HP called it the 'advanced logic proble' and that's really what it is. A better version of the blinking-light probe I used to use. Great for checking clocks, power supply voltages (it has a voltmeter function), serial data streams, etc. Normally the first instrument I grab for an unknown logic problem just to eliminate the 'sillies' 2) An old Gould-Biomation K100D. 16 channels 100MHz. with external clocking. I do have the 32 channel adapter for it which can only work with an external clock. This was my first LA and I still have a soft spot for it. 3) An HP1630. I forget which one, probably a 1630G. It does all I want. I was also AFAIK the last HP LA to have a proper component-level service manual. It's also a classic computer in its own right (6809 + 6829 MMU). Oddly the CRT is scanned vertically, I have no idea why. -tony From john at forecast.name Fri Feb 3 10:18:30 2017 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 11:18:30 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <9B416B41-D968-48D9-B751-BF13D4741BA9@comcast.net> References: <20170203040630.B81F318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9B416B41-D968-48D9-B751-BF13D4741BA9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3DB3C71C-2FA0-4B2D-923D-83BEB1FC56E2@forecast.name> > On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:22 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Feb 2, 2017, at 11:19 PM, william degnan wrote: >> >> ... >> I am curious to see what OS's run on an 11/40 without the EIS card other >> than RT-11. I am researching this. I have always wanted to learn more >> about batch-11. > > You mean DOS/BATCH? Yes, that would run on that machine, it's an 11/20 OS. So would the pre-Batch version of DOS-11 (V4). > > Another OS that would run on your machine (as well as an 11/20) would be RSTS-11 (V4, or I suppose V3 if you can find that), the predecessor of RSTS/E that didn't use the MMU. > > It may be that some flavors of RSX-11/M or /S can be built with no EIS, since it's supposed to be possible to build a non-MMU version at least of /S. But I don't know the specifics (no RSX experience). > > paul > It looks as though Bill only has RL02 drives on the 11/40 so that would rule out DOS/BATCH. One of the later 3.x releases of RSX-11M should be OK (4.x seems to have dropped unmapped support). John. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 10:20:28 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 11:20:28 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170203135722.1500718C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170203135722.1500718C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > my focus has been on just getting an 11/40 hardware working > > Rightly and properly so... > > > I suppose I should be happy with RT-11 given my circumstances. > > Unix really is a significant improvement, we really need to make sure you > can > run it. Don't worry about the OS image issue, I can crank them out like > sausages, and we already have all the bits we need (V6 RL driver, > bootstrap, > etc). > > > > It's not possible with the 3 over the back cables to put the 7238 on > a > > riser card to probe signals as easily. > > Really? DEC specified BC08R-01 cables, which _should_ be long enough to > allow > it to be put on an extender. Does your machine have the -01's, or have they > been replaced with little shorty ones? > > If the latter, if you can't find any -01's, it should be possible to locate > some generic 40-pin cables, which should work (old IDE cables should work, > but not the new ones, which have a key that will prevent the connectors > from > going in, in this application). > > Also, it should not to be too hard to whip up some: the connectors and the > flat cable are pretty easy to find - although not the ground-plane backed > kind - do anyone know of a source for that? Anyway, the regular kind of > flat > cable ought to work well enough for debugging. > > Noel > Very well! I will find some cables. I have XXDP+ on disk, I can make other versions if need be. Also, I can "replace the caps" if need be, but I'd like to find a routine or XXDP for this so I can see if there is a specific error to address instead, assuming I can boot up XXDP+ with the M7238 installed.. I read the manual. I looked for quite a while and could not find the XXDP+ that tests the 11/40 EIS. I searched by part number. Perhaps these tests are bundled with others and I am missing it. I am familiar with the database of tests online that has many but no KE11-E M7238 EIS Diagnostics...Sorry to have to ask, I checked what places I know of, WWW search etc. Can anyone suggest the name of the test so I can run it? Again, thanks for your help and encouragement. Bill From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Feb 3 10:41:17 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 10:41:17 -0600 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5894B2AD.1070102@pico-systems.com> On 02/03/2017 02:55 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this > specific case is that with 4 2764s right next to each > other with a direct signal path between adjacent address > and data pins that has a resistance of 0.5 ohms pin to pin > surely I should be able to put a clip on each (for > example) A4 address line and see the same pulse at all > four channels? Well, if the two logic analyzers were synched together, or you were sampling at 100 MHz or above, then yes. But, if the logic analyzers are running too slow, sampling irregularly (I have no trust in Chinese gizmos until PROVEN that they do it right) you could get very different results. Is there a clock on the microprocessor that you can check? Maybe something like a baud rate clock or something that is at a few MHz. See if that shows up as totally regular square waves. If not, then the LA may not be sampling at a regular rate, or might have gaps while sending data to the PC. I'm just suspicious of these units, given the results you report. (On my $130,000 Tektronix analyzer, I don't have to worry about such stupid stuff, I know they got it right. I paid less than $750 for it, it will do 100 MHz on 288 synchronized channels, with a 128K record length. But, it is bigger than a big kitchen microwave, and much noisier, too.) Jon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 3 10:46:28 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:46:28 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Different strokes for different folks. I've only used a logic analyzer once and even for that I found it cumbersome and inadequate. I needed it to solve a sequential problem that had a lot of time sequential actions. Things like is does this, then this, then that. Ignore it and restart if it does this and then something else. I find that I can work faster with a 'scope. If I have issues with something not of the bus or processor, most things have EPROMs and I write test code. Most logic analyzers are not real good at showing voltages. Contention on a bus may be missed. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Tony Duell Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:27:07 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Logic Analysers On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this specific case is that > with 4 2764s right next to each other with a direct signal path between > adjacent address and data pins that has a resistance of 0.5 ohms pin to pin > surely I should be able to put a clip on each (for example) A4 address line > and see the same pulse at all four channels? Yes, subject to the following unlikely cases : 1) There is a standing wave developed between the pins. Technically that trace is a transmission line. I have never heard it happen between ICs next to each other at 8-bit micro speeds though. 2) There is a bad connection (IC socket?) on one of the pins 3) If you have a very fast logic analyser you might be able to see the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a foot is about a nanosecond. So you are talking 10s of picoseconds delay). You will not see that with the sort of analyser you or I have :-) If you try your test with 4 of your logic analyser channels on the A4 pins of the EPROMs, I assume you get different traces for each channel -- that is what you are commenting on. What happens if you swap the logic analyser channels round? Incidentally, I'd better comment on the Logic Analysers I use. I use them a lot more than a 'scope, but that's because of what I generally need to do. 1) (Is is an LA?) The HP LogicDart. 3 Channels, 100MHz. No external clock facility. But it is pocket sized. HP called it the 'advanced logic proble' and that's really what it is. A better version of the blinking-light probe I used to use. Great for checking clocks, power supply voltages (it has a voltmeter function), serial data streams, etc. Normally the first instrument I grab for an unknown logic problem just to eliminate the 'sillies' 2) An old Gould-Biomation K100D. 16 channels 100MHz. with external clocking. I do have the 32 channel adapter for it which can only work with an external clock. This was my first LA and I still have a soft spot for it. 3) An HP1630. I forget which one, probably a 1630G. It does all I want. I was also AFAIK the last HP LA to have a proper component-level service manual. It's also a classic computer in its own right (6809 + 6829 MMU). Oddly the CRT is scanned vertically, I have no idea why. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 10:50:20 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 11:50:20 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <3DB3C71C-2FA0-4B2D-923D-83BEB1FC56E2@forecast.name> References: <20170203040630.B81F318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9B416B41-D968-48D9-B751-BF13D4741BA9@comcast.net> <3DB3C71C-2FA0-4B2D-923D-83BEB1FC56E2@forecast.name> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 11:18 AM, John Forecast wrote: > > > On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:22 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > > > > > paul > > > It looks as though Bill only has RL02 drives on the 11/40 so that would > rule out DOS/BATCH. One of the later 3.x releases of RSX-11M should be OK > (4.x seems to have dropped unmapped support). > > John. > > > Yah, too bad about DOS batch I have some nice manuals to work from, but I will see if I can find RSX-11M, so far I have not found an RL02 image for this, I have one here that is too new to work on my system, it crashes. Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Feb 3 11:00:08 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 12:00:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Another OS that would run on your machine (as well as an 11/20) would > be RSTS-11 (V4, or I suppose V3 if you can find that) I'd love to have an old RSTS-11, is there any variant around? > didn't use the MMU Huh? He's got an MMU (I think): it's the EIS he's currently struggling with. Noel From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 11:06:34 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 17:06:34 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 4:46 PM, dwight wrote: > Different strokes for different folks. Yes. It depends a lot on what you work on, what you are trying to do, and how you think. This is a problem with mailing lists. There are many knowledgeable people here, but each has their own way of doing things. All are right. But a person trying to learn is going to get conflicting advice. Not because anyone is being unkind, but because what they say is what they do, it works for them. There is no one 'right way' to do this. Any way that finds the problem (and that you know has found the problem!) is OK. Any instrument is just a way of finding out what the device under test is actually doing. Faultfinding should then consist of comparing that to what the device should be doing and working out what could cause the differences. Needless to say I would not want an LA if I was repairing an SMPSU. I'd use a 'scope. But a lot of what I work on involves investigate a processor or a complex interface controller (possibly microcoded, so in a sense a special- purpose processor) at gate level. Believe me, you do not want to try to debug an HP9800 (bit serial, microcoded, downright odd in places) with a 'scope... -tony From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 11:09:04 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 13:09:04 -0400 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: <5894B2AD.1070102@pico-systems.com> References: <5894B2AD.1070102@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2017-02-03 12:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 02/03/2017 02:55 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this specific case >> is that with 4 2764s right next to each other with a direct signal >> path between adjacent address and data pins that has a resistance of >> 0.5 ohms pin to pin surely I should be able to put a clip on each >> (for example) A4 address line and see the same pulse at all four >> channels? > Well, if the two logic analyzers were synched together, or you were > sampling at 100 MHz or above, then yes. > But, if the logic analyzers are running too slow, sampling irregularly > (I have no trust in Chinese gizmos until PROVEN that they do it right) > you could get very different results. Is there a clock on the > microprocessor that you can check? Maybe something like a baud rate > clock or something that is at a few MHz. See if that shows up as > totally regular square waves. If not, then the LA may not be sampling > at a regular rate, or might have gaps while sending data to the PC. > I'm just suspicious of these units, given the results you report. > > (On my $130,000 Tektronix analyzer, I don't have to worry about such > stupid stuff, I know they got it right. I paid less than $750 for it, > it will do 100 MHz on 288 synchronized channels, with a 128K record > length. But, it is bigger than a big kitchen microwave, and much > noisier, too.) > > Jon Same with my Agilent 16700B, however I current only have 192 channels available because I have two card slots occupied by digital scope cards. The analyzer cards I have can do 110 MHz state or 500 MHz timing which more than meets my needs for the 30-40 year old computers I use it with. One big advantage of a setup like this is one instrument can be used to trigger the other, for instance if I want to see what a signal really looks at at some point, I can use the logic analyzer to trigger the scope cards. I also really like the external monitor on the 16700, its nice to work on a 19" display with a regular keyboard and mouse. I have the 16700 set up with the back facing my work bench which gives me extra reach with the cable. The only thing I need access to the front for is the power switch. I do also have a analogue scope but I find myself using it less these days especially for digital circuits. I also have a 16700A, 16600A, and a 16500C but they are rarely if ever used these days. Paul. From john at forecast.name Fri Feb 3 11:16:33 2017 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 12:16:33 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170203040630.B81F318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9B416B41-D968-48D9-B751-BF13D4741BA9@comcast.net> <3DB3C71C-2FA0-4B2D-923D-83BEB1FC56E2@forecast.name> Message-ID: > On Feb 3, 2017, at 11:50 AM, william degnan wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 11:18 AM, John Forecast wrote: > >> >>> On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:22 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> paul >>> >> It looks as though Bill only has RL02 drives on the 11/40 so that would >> rule out DOS/BATCH. One of the later 3.x releases of RSX-11M should be OK >> (4.x seems to have dropped unmapped support). >> >> John. >> >> >> > Yah, too bad about DOS batch I have some nice manuals to work from, but I > will see if I can find RSX-11M, so far I have not found an RL02 image for > this, I have one here that is too new to work on my system, it crashes. > > Bill RSX-11M V3.2 supports RL02s and bitsavers has images of the 3.2 RL01 distribution disks. I?m not sure if those will boot if copied to an RL02. John. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Feb 3 11:23:10 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 09:23:10 -0800 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: <5894B2AD.1070102@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <2f35ef44-b8bc-d72c-0c6a-956b0bcc3ab6@jwsss.com> On 2/3/2017 9:09 AM, Paul Berger wrote: > I also have a 16700A, 16600A, and a 16500C but they are rarely if ever > used these days. > > Paul. the 16600A has one slot. We had one with a scope card installed, very nice compact setup if the builtin channels were sufficient. thanks jim From chd at chdickman.com Fri Feb 3 11:37:27 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 12:37:27 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170203135722.1500718C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 11:20 AM, william degnan wrote: > I am > familiar with the database of tests online that has many but no KE11-E > M7238 EIS Diagnostics...Sorry to have to ask, I checked what places I know > of, WWW search etc. Can anyone suggest the name of the test so I can run > it? > Its actually a hand full of tests, one for each instruction. http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/Notes/my_diagnostics.html > Again, thanks for your help and encouragement. > > Bill -chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 11:59:55 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 12:59:55 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170203040630.B81F318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9B416B41-D968-48D9-B751-BF13D4741BA9@comcast.net> <3DB3C71C-2FA0-4B2D-923D-83BEB1FC56E2@forecast.name> Message-ID: > > > > Bill > > RSX-11M V3.2 supports RL02s and bitsavers has images of the 3.2 RL01 > distribution disks. I?m not sure if those will boot if copied to an RL02. > > John. > > I saw that, and was thinking the same thing b From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 12:02:46 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 13:02:46 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170203135722.1500718C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 11:20 AM, william degnan > wrote: > > I am > > familiar with the database of tests online that has many but no KE11-E > > M7238 EIS Diagnostics...Sorry to have to ask, I checked what places I > know > > of, WWW search etc. Can anyone suggest the name of the test so I can > run > > it? > > > Its actually a hand full of tests, one for each instruction. > > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/Notes/my_diagnostics.html > > > Again, thanks for your help and encouragement. > > > > Bill > > -chuck > thanks. I will read up and then try these. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 12:21:58 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 13:21:58 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170203040630.B81F318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9B416B41-D968-48D9-B751-BF13D4741BA9@comcast.net> <3DB3C71C-2FA0-4B2D-923D-83BEB1FC56E2@forecast.name> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:59 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > >> > >> > Bill >> >> RSX-11M V3.2 supports RL02s and bitsavers has images of the 3.2 RL01 >> distribution disks. I?m not sure if those will boot if copied to an RL02. >> >> John. >> >> > I saw that, and was thinking the same thing > b > I don't want to jumper the RL02 to think it's an RL01, but just for fun I wonder what would happen if I used PDPGUI to build a RL02 disk from a RL01 image. It might format a smaller amount of the disk, and if it's a distribution disk I could create a real RL02 disk working bootable. Nothing to lose I suppose to experiment. b From lproven at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 12:28:21 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 19:28:21 +0100 Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 2 February 2017 at 23:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > Frankly, it SCARES me that that wasn't absurd enough! A friend of mine, Charlie Stross, recently had to rewrite the outline of a novel because his bleak dystopian vision of the near-future "free world" wasn't _nearly_ bleak enough and the actual world has turned a lot worse. After his hasty rewrite, it's gone nastier again. His novel will now seem like a cheerful upbeat alternate timeline instead. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From jam at synthetica.org Fri Feb 3 12:32:35 2017 From: jam at synthetica.org (Josh Miller) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 13:32:35 -0500 Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1486146755.594029.869535896.1D1179C8@webmail.messagingengine.com> > A friend of mine, Charlie Stross I love this. Mr. Stross's work is a favorite of mine. The laundry files are particularly crunchy. The Internet is awesome. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Feb 3 12:39:08 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 18:39:08 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 03/02/2017 15:27, "Tony Duell" wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Adrian Graham > wrote: > >> Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this specific case is that >> with 4 2764s right next to each other with a direct signal path between >> adjacent address and data pins that has a resistance of 0.5 ohms pin to pin >> surely I should be able to put a clip on each (for example) A4 address line >> and see the same pulse at all four channels? > > Yes, subject to the following unlikely cases : > > 1) There is a standing wave developed between the pins. Technically that trace > is a transmission line. I have never heard it happen between ICs next to each > other at 8-bit micro speeds though. > > 2) There is a bad connection (IC socket?) on one of the pins That was my first thought so there's nice new turned pin sockets on there now. I did find one connection on the data bus that was held together by solder and luck so fixed that with a small piece of jumper wire. > 3) If you have a very fast logic analyser you might be able to see the > propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a foot is about > a nanosecond. So you are talking 10s of picoseconds delay). You will not > see that with the sort of analyser you or I have :-) I wondered about that but the fastest I can go is 25Mhz, also the missing/extra signals are across (in this case) 6 channels and don't go in channel order, so there'll be a missing pulse on channels 1+2 or channel 4 or an extra one on 2+5 etc. I'm watching the output pins on an LS373 flip-flop (new socket+chip) and the corresponding ROMs (all new sockets+chips) along with an LS21N in the decoding circuit. > If you try your test with 4 of your logic analyser channels on the A4 pins of > the EPROMs, I assume you get different traces for each channel -- that is > what you are commenting on. What happens if you swap the logic analyser > channels round? I thought of that the other day, also swapped the grabber ends since they're not the sturdiest of things. I haven't tried a PC though, my host is an iMac. Hopefully next week I'll have a Zeroplus to try which while still being USB attach is 16CH+external clock and onboard RAM for storage. Could be useful. > Incidentally, I'd better comment on the Logic Analysers I use. I use them > a lot more than a 'scope, but that's because of what I generally need to do. > Ah, someone else with an HP16xx. This is making me think I should join the club. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From lproven at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 12:44:36 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 19:44:36 +0100 Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: <1486146755.594029.869535896.1D1179C8@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1486146755.594029.869535896.1D1179C8@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On 3 February 2017 at 19:32, Josh Miller wrote: > I love this. Mr. Stross's work is a favorite of mine. The laundry > files are particularly crunchy. The Internet is awesome. He's a superb writer. I have all of his books up to about 2012, because he gave me copies of them last time I visited him in Edinburgh. :-) Before he was a professional novelist, he wrote the Linux column for Computer Shopper UK -- overlapping my time on the staff of PC Pro. That's how we first met, about 20y ago... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 12:44:41 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 14:44:41 -0400 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: <2f35ef44-b8bc-d72c-0c6a-956b0bcc3ab6@jwsss.com> References: <5894B2AD.1070102@pico-systems.com> <2f35ef44-b8bc-d72c-0c6a-956b0bcc3ab6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <078c3525-7a34-fc91-b7f8-117f3e51b8d4@gmail.com> On 2017-02-03 1:23 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 2/3/2017 9:09 AM, Paul Berger wrote: >> I also have a 16700A, 16600A, and a 16500C but they are rarely if >> ever used these days. >> >> Paul. > the 16600A has one slot. We had one with a scope card installed, very > nice compact setup if the builtin channels were sufficient. > thanks > jim > Yep that is why I got it, its hard to image 192 channel + 12 clocks not being enough it would be better is they where deep memory like the cards in my 16700B but you can't have everything. Since it is the same CPU card I moved the option 3 card from the 16700A into it when I took the 16700A out of service. I also had an extra 10?100 card from a 16700B I think I may have stuck it in there too. The 10/100 card will work in an A but you need to remove the RJ45 connector that is on the CPU card. Paul. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Feb 3 12:47:55 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 18:47:55 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: <5894B2AD.1070102@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 03/02/2017 16:41, "Jon Elson" wrote: > On 02/03/2017 02:55 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this >> specific case is that with 4 2764s right next to each >> other with a direct signal path between adjacent address >> and data pins that has a resistance of 0.5 ohms pin to pin >> surely I should be able to put a clip on each (for >> example) A4 address line and see the same pulse at all >> four channels? > Well, if the two logic analyzers were synched together, or > you were sampling at 100 MHz or above, then yes. Neither of them can go that fast but I didn't think that was necessary since the system clock on this machine is 6MHz so sampling at 25+ should be sufficient. If I reduce the number of channels to 6 I can drive one of them at 50MHz but that didn't seem to make a difference. > totally regular square waves. If not, then the LA may not > be sampling at a regular rate, or might have gaps while > sending data to the PC. I'm just suspicious of these units, > given the results you report. So am I :) I mean, the most expensive one was ukp40 direct from China so if it's not fully accurate I can't really be surprised. I have a Zeroplus coming next week from another collector who used it on Apple][/PETs as well as car ECUs with good results. In the meanwhile the external clock signal from the 8085 on this machine is accessible in 3 locations so I'll try 3 channels and see if it's properly square. > (On my $130,000 Tektronix analyzer, I don't have to worry > about such stupid stuff, I know they got it right. I paid > less than $750 for it, it will do 100 MHz on 288 > synchronized channels, with a 128K record length. But, it > is bigger than a big kitchen microwave, and much noisier, too.) I'm looking at a lower-end HP/Agilent for around ukp200-250 which should be enough since I doubt I'll ever work on anything with a clock speed of more than 8MHz. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 3 13:04:23 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 19:04:23 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I think Tony's statement about the key thing to know about trouble shouting is to know what it should be doing. If you don't know that, no scope or logic analyzer with help much. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Tony Duell Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 9:06:34 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Logic Analysers On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 4:46 PM, dwight wrote: > Different strokes for different folks. Yes. It depends a lot on what you work on, what you are trying to do, and how you think. This is a problem with mailing lists. There are many knowledgeable people here, but each has their own way of doing things. All are right. But a person trying to learn is going to get conflicting advice. Not because anyone is being unkind, but because what they say is what they do, it works for them. There is no one 'right way' to do this. Any way that finds the problem (and that you know has found the problem!) is OK. Any instrument is just a way of finding out what the device under test is actually doing. Faultfinding should then consist of comparing that to what the device should be doing and working out what could cause the differences. Needless to say I would not want an LA if I was repairing an SMPSU. I'd use a 'scope. But a lot of what I work on involves investigate a processor or a complex interface controller (possibly microcoded, so in a sense a special- purpose processor) at gate level. Believe me, you do not want to try to debug an HP9800 (bit serial, microcoded, downright odd in places) with a 'scope... -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 3 13:31:13 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 14:31:13 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> > On Feb 3, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> Another OS that would run on your machine (as well as an 11/20) would >> be RSTS-11 (V4, or I suppose V3 if you can find that) > > I'd love to have an old RSTS-11, is there any variant around? Yes, on bitsavers. But John's comment reminds me that RSTS-11 V4A doesn't support RL02. (Only RF11, RK11, RP11.) V4B may be different, I don't know. >> didn't use the MMU > > Huh? He's got an MMU (I think): it's the EIS he's currently struggling with. True. I meant to point out the main difference between RSTS-11 and RSTS/E. The other difference is that it doesn't require EIS. Both follow from the fact it was designed for the 11/20. paul From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Feb 3 13:35:30 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 14:35:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201702031935.OAA19895@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a >> foot is about a nanosecond. [...]) Not really. A foot is about a light-nanosecond, yes, but high-frequency signals in copper travel by skin effect, moving significantly more slowly - somewhere around .6c, I think it is. It's still on the general order of c, mind you; for the purposes of this discussion, c and .5c - even .1c - are much the same. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 13:43:58 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 19:43:58 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: <201702031935.OAA19895@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201702031935.OAA19895@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a >>> foot is about a nanosecond. [...]) > > Not really. A foot is about a light-nanosecond, yes, but > high-frequency signals in copper travel by skin effect, moving > significantly more slowly - somewhere around .6c, I think it is. It's not really the skin effect that matters here. It's the dielectric medium that surrounds the conductors that effectively slows the fields down. But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations, not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or 100's of picoseconds. That sort of order. So a 25MHz logic analyser, with an effective time resolution of 40ns (if that) is not going to show it. There is no way you're going to get delays of 40ns between adjacent ICs on any reasonable PCB. > > It's still on the general order of c, mind you; for the purposes of > this discussion, c and .5c - even .1c - are much the same. Exactly. -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 13:47:16 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 19:47:16 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:04 PM, dwight wrote: > I think Tony's statement about the key thing to know about > > trouble shouting is to know what it should be doing. > > If you don't know that, no scope or logic analyzer with help much. Yes. I once explained faultfinding in this way. The technical manual, schematics, microcode listings, etc should tell you what the device should be doing. The instruments tell you what it is doing, you need test instruments becuase you can't directly 'see' electrical signals. You then have to compare the two and work out what could cause the problem. There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general. As I have said before, the most important piece of test gear is a brain. -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 3 13:51:39 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 14:51:39 -0500 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: <201702031935.OAA19895@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <936F5C58-000B-41AF-B6C7-5B9051063DEB@comcast.net> > On Feb 3, 2017, at 2:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a >>>> foot is about a nanosecond. [...]) >> >> Not really. A foot is about a light-nanosecond, yes, but >> high-frequency signals in copper travel by skin effect, moving >> significantly more slowly - somewhere around .6c, I think it is. > > It's not really the skin effect that matters here. It's the dielectric > medium that surrounds the conductors that effectively slows the > fields down. Yes. Consider open wire transmission line, which has a velocity factor around 98%. Or air dielectric coax, similarly high value. The smaller numbers. like 66%, are found in traditional solid-dielectric (not foam) coax cable. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 13:58:37 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 12:58:37 -0700 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells > you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general. > Hmmm... I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5 is faulty'. It won't be magic, though... :-) From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Feb 3 14:08:33 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 12:08:33 -0800 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/3/2017 11:58 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells >> you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general. >> > Hmmm... > > I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5 > is faulty'. > > It won't be magic, though... > :-) One of those round ones with an 8 on top with a clear window on the bottom to tell you the fault? Those work very well. Thanks Jim From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 14:09:05 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 20:09:05 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells >> you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general. >> > > Hmmm... > > I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5 > is faulty'. > > It won't be magic, though... > :-) Yes, OK, I am sure the HP calculator sitting alongside me could be programmed to display that message :-). It won't help in actually finding which IC _is_ faulty though..... -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 14:10:58 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 20:10:58 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:08 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 2/3/2017 11:58 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells >>> you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general. >>> >> Hmmm... >> >> I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5 >> is faulty'. >> >> It won't be magic, though... >> :-) > > One of those round ones with an 8 on top with a clear window on the bottom > to tell you the fault? Those work very well. I am not sure those are common this side of the Pond. I assume it's some kind of fortune telling device that perhaps contains a polyhedron with a different fortune on each face or something? -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 14:25:03 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 15:25:03 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> References: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Feb 3, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > > > >> From: Paul Koning > > > >> Another OS that would run on your machine (as well as an 11/20) would > >> be RSTS-11 (V4, or I suppose V3 if you can find that) > > > > I'd love to have an old RSTS-11, is there any variant around? > > Yes, on bitsavers. But John's comment reminds me that RSTS-11 V4A doesn't > support RL02. (Only RF11, RK11, RP11.) V4B may be different, I don't know. > > >> didn't use the MMU > > > > Huh? He's got an MMU (I think): it's the EIS he's currently struggling > with. > > True. I meant to point out the main difference between RSTS-11 and > RSTS/E. The other difference is that it doesn't require EIS. Both follow > from the fact it was designed for the 11/20. > > paul > > So you're saying for a system with a MMU but no working EIS (removed for now) and 64KW RAM (half populated M7891) you're suggesting which OS? I still have to research the best options, RSX-11M? I was able to get the extended three cables so I can put the M7238 EIS card on a riser so I can probe for faults, and maybe if I am lucky boot XXDP+. With the EIN installed I can't boot RT-11 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 3 14:25:11 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 12:25:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Feb 2017, Eric Smith wrote: > Hmmm... > I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5 > is faulty'. > It won't be magic, though... > :-) Other than plugging in to the computer (USB?), the rest of it could probably be done in software. What would the "System Requirements" be? Would it also advise me that both my hardware and my OS are out-of-date, and need to be upgraded? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 14:26:19 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 15:26:19 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> Message-ID: > > > > I was able to get the extended three cables so I can put the M7238 EIS > card on a riser so I can probe for faults, and maybe if I am lucky boot > XXDP+. With the EIN installed I can't boot RT-11 > > I mean EIS, not EIN. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 3 14:31:43 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 15:31:43 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5B31D70E-88FC-465E-95CC-B19F9EEF6C4C@comcast.net> > On Feb 3, 2017, at 3:25 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>> On Feb 3, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Noel Chiappa >> wrote: >>> >>>> From: Paul Koning >>> >>>> Another OS that would run on your machine (as well as an 11/20) would >>>> be RSTS-11 (V4, or I suppose V3 if you can find that) >>> >>> I'd love to have an old RSTS-11, is there any variant around? >> >> Yes, on bitsavers. But John's comment reminds me that RSTS-11 V4A doesn't >> support RL02. (Only RF11, RK11, RP11.) V4B may be different, I don't know. >> >>>> didn't use the MMU >>> >>> Huh? He's got an MMU (I think): it's the EIS he's currently struggling >> with. >> >> True. I meant to point out the main difference between RSTS-11 and >> RSTS/E. The other difference is that it doesn't require EIS. Both follow >> from the fact it was designed for the 11/20. >> >> paul >> >> > So you're saying for a system with a MMU but no working EIS (removed for > now) and 64KW RAM (half populated M7891) you're suggesting which OS? I > still have to research the best options, RSX-11M? I'm not sure there is one. DEC OS designers typically would assume that they are dealing with non-broken systems. Systems with MMU all have EIS, so an OS that requires an MMU would typically take advantage of EIS instructions. That's the case in RSTS/E, for example. OSs designed for non-MMU systems would also typically assume no EIS, because they were intended for the entire PDP-11 family including 11/20 and the like. In other words, if you don't have an EIS that works, you're likely to be limited to no-MMU systems because those are likely to be the only ones whose authors avoided EIS instructions. There may be some mixed cases, an OS where the same basic system can be built for no-MMU as well as MMU configs. If so, there might be a way to build an MMU=yes, EIS=no config. Or it may come with EIS=no by default because some of its configs have to handle that and it's easier to do it consistenly. Possibly RSX is such an OS; I don't know. paul From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 14:38:14 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:38:14 -0400 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2017-02-03 3:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:04 PM, dwight wrote: >> I think Tony's statement about the key thing to know about >> >> trouble shouting is to know what it should be doing. >> >> If you don't know that, no scope or logic analyzer with help much. > Yes. I once explained faultfinding in this way. The technical manual, > schematics, microcode listings, etc should tell you what the device > should be doing. The instruments tell you what it is doing, you need > test instruments becuase you can't directly 'see' electrical signals. > You then have to compare the two and work out what could cause > the problem. > > There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells > you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general. > > As I have said before, the most important piece of test gear is a > brain. > > -tony ...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and draw your own... Paul. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 14:41:22 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 20:41:22 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > ...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and draw > your own... Given the number of times I've done that, I half-feel like mentioning a grandmother and sucking eggs ;-) More seriously, to draw out a useful schematic -- not just one that shows what is connected to what, but also groups related sections together, also requres a good understanding of the device, of what is likely to be going on, etc. In other words that brain comes in handy... -tony From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 14:43:45 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 13:43:45 -0700 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 3 Feb 2017, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Hmmm... >> I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5 >> is faulty'. >> It won't be magic, though... >> :-) >> > > Other than plugging in to the computer (USB?), the rest of it could > probably be done in software. > I'd prefer having a physical piece of hardware. That way I feel like I've gotten something for my money. > What would the "System Requirements" be? > Would it also advise me that both my hardware and my OS are out-of-date, > and need to be upgraded? > I'll add that in a future upgrade (for more $). I'm also considering a space-rated version, which will be able to detect faults in Alpha Echo Three Five units. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 14:51:32 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 12:51:32 -0800 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > What would the "System Requirements" be? > > Would it also advise me that both my hardware and my OS are out-of-date, > > and need to be upgraded? > > > > I'll add that in a future upgrade (for more $). > > I'm also considering a space-rated version, which will be able to detect > faults in Alpha Echo Three Five units. > It can only be attributable to human error. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 3 15:00:58 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 21:00:58 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I once worked with a device that came close to telling you that U15 was failing. It was called a signature analyzer. It was good as a first pass production tester. It was not something I'd expect a hobbyist to use. It needed a pin bed to match the board under test. It wasn't good enough to catch the bypass capacitor tied to a buss feedthru. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Charles Anthony Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 12:51:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Logic Analysers On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > What would the "System Requirements" be? > > Would it also advise me that both my hardware and my OS are out-of-date, > > and need to be upgraded? > > > > I'll add that in a future upgrade (for more $). > > I'm also considering a space-rated version, which will be able to detect > faults in Alpha Echo Three Five units. > It can only be attributable to human error. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 15:03:08 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:03:08 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <5B31D70E-88FC-465E-95CC-B19F9EEF6C4C@comcast.net> References: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> <5B31D70E-88FC-465E-95CC-B19F9EEF6C4C@comcast.net> Message-ID: > > > >> > >> > > So you're saying for a system with a MMU but no working EIS (removed for > > now) and 64KW RAM (half populated M7891) you're suggesting which OS? I > > still have to research the best options, RSX-11M? > > I'm not sure there is one. DEC OS designers typically would assume that > they are dealing with non-broken systems. Systems with MMU all have EIS, > so an OS that requires an MMU would typically take advantage of EIS > instructions. That's the case in RSTS/E, for example. > > OSs designed for non-MMU systems would also typically assume no EIS, > because they were intended for the entire PDP-11 family including 11/20 and > the like. > > In other words, if you don't have an EIS that works, you're likely to be > limited to no-MMU systems because those are likely to be the only ones > whose authors avoided EIS instructions. > > There may be some mixed cases, an OS where the same basic system can be > built for no-MMU as well as MMU configs. If so, there might be a way to > build an MMU=yes, EIS=no config. Or it may come with EIS=no by default > because some of its configs have to handle that and it's easier to do it > consistenly. Possibly RSX is such an OS; I don't know. > > paul > > > OK. Hopefully I can repair my EIS board then. Otherwise it's RT-11. b From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Feb 3 15:05:01 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 21:05:01 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 03/02/2017 20:38, "Paul Berger" wrote: >> As I have said before, the most important piece of test gear is a >> brain. >> >> -tony > ...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and > draw your own... I'm not yet skilled enough to draw a schematic but I've drawn out a complete layout of the board with all chips and traces in an open source design package called Fritzing. Certainly a big help with wiring up the analyser. These drawings are the only docs I have however... One thing I'd REALLY like is a memory map but maybe the original designer of this machine will come up trumps soon. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 15:07:57 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 13:07:57 -0800 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <5B31D70E-88FC-465E-95CC-B19F9EEF6C4C@comcast.net> References: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> <5B31D70E-88FC-465E-95CC-B19F9EEF6C4C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > > I'm not sure there is one. DEC OS designers typically would assume that > they are dealing with non-broken systems. Systems with MMU all have EIS... > Is this actually true? I've been working on getting my PDP-11/40 running recently, and I don't recall anything in the documentation indicating that an EIS was required if you had an MMU installed. (On the other hand, the MMU docs indicate that the Stack Limit Register must be installed if an MMU is present, though I haven't looked into why this is the case). For the record, my system currently has the MMU, but lacks an EIS (still trying to track one down). It may be that DEC never shipped an MMU without an EIS in an 11/40... - Josh From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 3 15:08:07 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 15:08:07 -0600 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> <5B31D70E-88FC-465E-95CC-B19F9EEF6C4C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000201d27e61$9e1d8d30$da58a790$@classiccmp.org> Will wrote... ------ OK. Hopefully I can repair my EIS board then. Otherwise it's RT-11. ------ Don't forget the RT-11 + TSX+ option, very nice timesharing system. http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 15:12:51 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 14:12:51 -0700 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:00 PM, dwight wrote: > I once worked with a device that came close to telling you > that U15 was failing. > > It was called a signature analyzer. > It was good as a first pass production tester. > It required that the device under test be put in a state where the signals had predictable waveforms, since it basically was just computing a 16-bit hash of samples of the waveforms, referenced to clock and start signals. Typically the device under test would be put in a special signature test mode to do that. > It needed a pin bed to match the board under test. > For automated full-board testing, yes. But signature testing was also used with a probe on individual signals for field diagnostic purposes. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 3 15:17:31 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:17:31 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> <5B31D70E-88FC-465E-95CC-B19F9EEF6C4C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1DF6E7B1-58A0-453F-9ADE-B3012BE8CAA2@comcast.net> > On Feb 3, 2017, at 4:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >> >> >> I'm not sure there is one. DEC OS designers typically would assume that >> they are dealing with non-broken systems. Systems with MMU all have EIS... >> > > Is this actually true? I've been working on getting my PDP-11/40 running > recently, and I don't recall anything in the documentation indicating that > an EIS was required if you had an MMU installed. What I meant is that the 11/40 has EIS standard, according to the PDP11 architecture handbook. So an OS that depends on MMU would be designed for 11/40, 11/45, etc. all of which have EIS. And since EIS instructions are quite helpful they will be used. Not necessarily MUL, in a kernel, but definitely SOB. paul From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 15:28:23 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 17:28:23 -0400 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2017-02-03 4:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> ...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and draw >> your own... > Given the number of times I've done that, I half-feel like mentioning > a grandmother > and sucking eggs ;-) > > More seriously, to draw out a useful schematic -- not just one that > shows what is > connected to what, but also groups related sections together, also > requres a good > understanding of the device, of what is likely to be going on, etc. In > other words that > brain comes in handy... > > -tony Without a doubt the brain is the most important tool..... in my day job of providing advise on fixing equipment, not component level mind you, you quickly learn who is equipped with this tool and who is not. Paul. From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 15:28:43 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 13:28:43 -0800 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <1DF6E7B1-58A0-453F-9ADE-B3012BE8CAA2@comcast.net> References: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> <5B31D70E-88FC-465E-95CC-B19F9EEF6C4C@comcast.net> <1DF6E7B1-58A0-453F-9ADE-B3012BE8CAA2@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Feb 3, 2017, at 4:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Paul Koning > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> I'm not sure there is one. DEC OS designers typically would assume that > >> they are dealing with non-broken systems. Systems with MMU all have > EIS... > >> > > > > Is this actually true? I've been working on getting my PDP-11/40 running > > recently, and I don't recall anything in the documentation indicating > that > > an EIS was required if you had an MMU installed. > > What I meant is that the 11/40 has EIS standard, according to the PDP11 > architecture handbook. So an OS that depends on MMU would be designed for > 11/40, 11/45, etc. all of which have EIS. And since EIS instructions are > quite helpful they will be used. Not necessarily MUL, in a kernel, but > definitely SOB. > EIS was an option on the 11/40, it was not standard. https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2005/readings/pdp11-40.pdf, section 2.4. - Josh > > paul > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 3 15:35:42 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:35:42 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> <5B31D70E-88FC-465E-95CC-B19F9EEF6C4C@comcast.net> <1DF6E7B1-58A0-453F-9ADE-B3012BE8CAA2@comcast.net> Message-ID: <98FA0269-DC7C-4587-8B47-26BE91FCAC50@comcast.net> > On Feb 3, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> ... >> What I meant is that the 11/40 has EIS standard, according to the PDP11 >> architecture handbook. So an OS that depends on MMU would be designed for >> 11/40, 11/45, etc. all of which have EIS. And since EIS instructions are >> quite helpful they will be used. Not necessarily MUL, in a kernel, but >> definitely SOB. >> > > EIS was an option on the 11/40, it was not standard. > https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2005/readings/pdp11-40.pdf, section 2.4. I saw that stated earlier, too, but DEC's PDP11 architecture handbook doesn't appear to confirm that. Either that or the model differences table is sloppy. paul From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 15:35:49 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 17:35:49 -0400 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <755dd6f6-c21a-6f53-9dbd-c15142b9d260@gmail.com> On 2017-02-03 5:05 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 03/02/2017 20:38, "Paul Berger" wrote: > >>> As I have said before, the most important piece of test gear is a >>> brain. >>> >>> -tony >> ...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and >> draw your own... > I'm not yet skilled enough to draw a schematic but I've drawn out a complete > layout of the board with all chips and traces in an open source design > package called Fritzing. Certainly a big help with wiring up the analyser. > These drawings are the only docs I have however... One thing I'd REALLY like > is a memory map but maybe the original designer of this machine will come up > trumps soon. > Well if that does not work out the approach I would take is work backwards from the chip select on the memory and I/O devices, things that may throw you off are if PLDs or ROMs are used as part of the logic. Chip select logic is usually pretty straight forward. As has been discussed before I/O on a 8085 may be in a seperate address space of might mapped into the I/O space. IO/-M selects between the two address spaces. Paul. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Feb 3 15:48:00 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:48:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170203214800.B9A2918C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > I was able to get the extended three cables Excellent! > I can put the M7238 EIS card on a riser so I can probe for faults I'm all agog to hear what you find out! > and maybe if I am lucky boot XXDP+. With the EIN installed I can't boot I thought the machine basically just totally froze if you tried inserting the KE11-E, and removing the jumper to enable it? Oh well, that severe a fault should be fairly easy (sic) to track down. > From: Paul Koning > DEC's PDP11 architecture handbook doesn't appear to confirm that. > Either that or the model differences table is sloppy. The next page (B-4) says "The KE11-E .. provides MUL " and has an "x" under "35/40". Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Feb 3 15:50:26 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 21:50:26 -0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009801d27e67$87d462a0$977d27e0$@ntlworld.com> > 3) An HP1630. I forget which one, probably a 1630G. It does all I want. I was > also AFAIK the last HP LA to have a proper component-level service manual. > It's also a classic computer in its own right (6809 + 6829 MMU). Oddly the CRT > is scanned vertically, I have no idea why. > Hello Tony, I bought a 1630G a while back. It came with pods, but didn't have the leads that plug into the pods. I am sure I could make something (in fact I intend to try it out this weekend if my cold doesn't get the better of me), but if you have any information on what to search for (model/part number) or know where I might buy some that would be really useful. Regards Rob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Feb 3 16:34:18 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 22:34:18 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote: > But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations, > not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent > ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or 100's of > picoseconds. That sort of order. So a 25MHz logic analyser, with an > effective time resolution of 40ns (if that) is not going to show it. > > There is no way you're going to get delays of 40ns between adjacent > ICs on any reasonable PCB. This is the sort of thing I mean: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking.jpg Watching the A1 address line (no triggers just sampling 6 points) and a pulse appears at ROM4 on the falling edge of the ALE signal but not the other 3 ROMs or the LS373 flip-flop that's demultiplexing the AD1 pin of the 8085. While I was thinking about the possibility of propagation delay I noticed this one: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking2.jpg Pulse missing from ROM3. Given the paths on this board aren't massive and resistance is equal between all points when measured with a DMM (and all sockets have been replaced, traces checked etc) what else could I be looking at? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 16:38:32 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 15:38:32 -0700 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <98FA0269-DC7C-4587-8B47-26BE91FCAC50@comcast.net> References: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> <5B31D70E-88FC-465E-95CC-B19F9EEF6C4C@comcast.net> <1DF6E7B1-58A0-453F-9ADE-B3012BE8CAA2@comcast.net> <98FA0269-DC7C-4587-8B47-26BE91FCAC50@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I saw that stated earlier, too, but DEC's PDP11 architecture handbook > doesn't appear to confirm that. Either that or the model differences table > is sloppy. > The model differences table is definitely sloppy. There are discrepancies between versions of that table in the various processor handbooks, also. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 3 17:29:51 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 23:29:51 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Adrian What you see on the other select line is what is called a glitch. These are not that uncommon during the early part of the address. What is important is that there are no glitchs when ALE transitions. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 2:34:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Logic Analysers On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote: > But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations, > not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent > ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or 100's of > picoseconds. That sort of order. So a 25MHz logic analyser, with an > effective time resolution of 40ns (if that) is not going to show it. > > There is no way you're going to get delays of 40ns between adjacent > ICs on any reasonable PCB. This is the sort of thing I mean: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking.jpg Watching the A1 address line (no triggers just sampling 6 points) and a pulse appears at ROM4 on the falling edge of the ALE signal but not the other 3 ROMs or the LS373 flip-flop that's demultiplexing the AD1 pin of the 8085. While I was thinking about the possibility of propagation delay I noticed this one: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking2.jpg Pulse missing from ROM3. Given the paths on this board aren't massive and resistance is equal between all points when measured with a DMM (and all sockets have been replaced, traces checked etc) what else could I be looking at? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From als at thangorodrim.ch Fri Feb 3 17:30:47 2017 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 00:30:47 +0100 Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20170203233047.GA26636@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 07:28:21PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > On 2 February 2017 at 23:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Frankly, it SCARES me that that wasn't absurd enough! > > > A friend of mine, Charlie Stross, recently had to rewrite the outline > of a novel because his bleak dystopian vision of the near-future "free > world" wasn't _nearly_ bleak enough and the actual world has turned a > lot worse. That was after Brexit and his response was basically "WTF just happened?" > After his hasty rewrite, it's gone nastier again. His novel will now > seem like a cheerful upbeat alternate timeline instead. And I guess this was after Trump, same response. I guess these days it is hard to write dystopian fiction since reality is hell bent to out do your darkest nightmares. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Feb 3 17:46:32 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 23:46:32 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 03/02/2017 23:29, "dwight" wrote: > Adrian > > What you see on the other select line is what is called a glitch. > > These are not that uncommon during the early part of the address. > > What is important is that there are no glitchs when ALE transitions. Ah, ok, there's a glitch filter that I can apply to each channel, I'll explore that. Cheers! > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham > > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 2:34:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Logic Analysers > > On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >> But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations, >> not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent >> ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or 100's of >> picoseconds. That sort of order. So a 25MHz logic analyser, with an >> effective time resolution of 40ns (if that) is not going to show it. >> >> There is no way you're going to get delays of 40ns between adjacent >> ICs on any reasonable PCB. > > This is the sort of thing I mean: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking.jpg > > Watching the A1 address line (no triggers just sampling 6 points) and a > pulse appears at ROM4 on the falling edge of the ALE signal but not the > other 3 ROMs or the LS373 flip-flop that's demultiplexing the AD1 pin of the > 8085. While I was thinking about the possibility of propagation delay I > noticed this one: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking2.jpg > > Pulse missing from ROM3. > > Given the paths on this board aren't massive and resistance is equal between > all points when measured with a DMM (and all sockets have been replaced, > traces checked etc) what else could I be looking at? > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From isking at uw.edu Fri Feb 3 18:00:17 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:00:17 -0800 Subject: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-request@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] In-Reply-To: References: <201701312204.RAA17697@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <8F4AAB13-F9B9-4BB4-928A-414D9F0B707C@eschatologist.net> <201702010230.VAA22088@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 5:55 AM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian S. King wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:24 PM, geneb wrote: >> >> On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote: >>> >>> WTF did I just read. >>> >>>> >>>> Fred in absolutely rare form. I nearly choked on coffee at the >>>> "yodeling >>>> >>> jellyfish" bit. I'd give him fake internet points if I could. :) >>> >>> Also, QUIT TOP POSTING. >>> >>> Be gentle, Gene. Ian works for the Evil Ex-Empire and is required as a >>> >> term of his indenture to use Outhouse-look, part of the Microsoft Orifice >> suite of floating turds. Even if you set it to do the right thing, it >> will >> randomly choose to once again do the Microsoft Thing. >> > > Sounds like an Intervention may be required. :) > > g I keep telling him he should come work on spaceships with me. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 18:06:09 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 19:06:09 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <1DF6E7B1-58A0-453F-9ADE-B3012BE8CAA2@comcast.net> References: <20170203170008.ECB0818C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79BF27CD-0FF9-4114-A743-5FBA6A4BC9F7@comcast.net> <5B31D70E-88FC-465E-95CC-B19F9EEF6C4C@comcast.net> <1DF6E7B1-58A0-453F-9ADE-B3012BE8CAA2@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Not necessarily MUL, in a kernel, but definitely SOB. I've run into needing SOB just between the PDP-11/04 and PDP11/34. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 3 18:10:21 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 00:10:21 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I'm not sure you want to hide glitches. There are times when you might want to see them. It is more about knowing when a glitch has meaning and when it doesn't. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 3:46:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Logic Analysers On 03/02/2017 23:29, "dwight" wrote: > Adrian > > What you see on the other select line is what is called a glitch. > > These are not that uncommon during the early part of the address. > > What is important is that there are no glitchs when ALE transitions. Ah, ok, there's a glitch filter that I can apply to each channel, I'll explore that. Cheers! > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham > > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 2:34:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Logic Analysers > > On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >> But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations, >> not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent >> ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or 100's of >> picoseconds. That sort of order. So a 25MHz logic analyser, with an >> effective time resolution of 40ns (if that) is not going to show it. >> >> There is no way you're going to get delays of 40ns between adjacent >> ICs on any reasonable PCB. > > This is the sort of thing I mean: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking.jpg > > Watching the A1 address line (no triggers just sampling 6 points) and a > pulse appears at ROM4 on the falling edge of the ALE signal but not the > other 3 ROMs or the LS373 flip-flop that's demultiplexing the AD1 pin of the > 8085. While I was thinking about the possibility of propagation delay I > noticed this one: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking2.jpg > > Pulse missing from ROM3. > > Given the paths on this board aren't massive and resistance is equal between > all points when measured with a DMM (and all sockets have been replaced, > traces checked etc) what else could I be looking at? > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 18:42:36 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:42:36 -0800 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <121eec18-a133-0125-3dd2-ca4c18829606@sydex.com> On 02/03/2017 04:10 PM, dwight wrote: > I'm not sure you want to hide glitches. There are times > > when you might want to see them. > > It is more about knowing when a glitch has meaning and when it > doesn't. Indeed. That's one of the the things that impressed me about the early HP 1615 logic analyzer--it had a glitch detector. Glitches can be maddeningly difficult to find using traditional (i.e. 'scope) methods. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Feb 3 20:20:41 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 20:20:41 -0600 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: <201702031935.OAA19895@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201702031935.OAA19895@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <58953A79.4050103@pico-systems.com> On 02/03/2017 01:35 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a >>> foot is about a nanosecond. [...]) > Not really. A foot is about a light-nanosecond, yes, but > high-frequency signals in copper travel by skin effect, moving > significantly more slowly - somewhere around .6c, I think it is. > Well, actually, it depends on the impedance. So, 50 Ohm coax cable is .6 C, twisted pair differential cable is 120 Ohms, and the propagation velocity is a little above .7 I think. Wires in open space are faster, around .8 or so, but the signal quality may be poor. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Feb 3 20:36:27 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 20:36:27 -0600 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58953E2B.1060600@pico-systems.com> On 02/03/2017 04:34 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >> But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations, >> not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent >> ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or 100's of >> picoseconds. That sort of order. So a 25MHz logic analyser, with an >> effective time resolution of 40ns (if that) is not going to show it. >> >> There is no way you're going to get delays of 40ns between adjacent >> ICs on any reasonable PCB. > This is the sort of thing I mean: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking.jpg > > Watching the A1 address line (no triggers just sampling 6 points) and a > pulse appears at ROM4 on the falling edge of the ALE signal but not the > other 3 ROMs or the LS373 flip-flop that's demultiplexing the AD1 pin of the > 8085. While I was thinking about the possibility of propagation delay I > noticed this one: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking2.jpg > > Pulse missing from ROM3. First pic, pulses are missing from ROMs 1-3, seen on ROM4. But, those pulses on ROM4 are really narrow, and may be noise, or very narrow glitches. Any time you see really narrow glitches, especially when they are one LA sample wide, you have no idea what they actually look like. The LA detects that the pulse was there at the instant it sampled it, but you don't know whether it was 5 ns wide, or 70 ns wide (with a 40 ns sampling period). You also don't know whether they were full-amplitude pulses or runts that just barely crossed the logic threshold of the analyzer. So, I'm not sure what you've shown there actually represents a problem or not. Especially on the 2nd picture, the pulses you have highlighted really look like a single sample wide, and if the logic levels of the analyzer are not exactly the same, or other slight deviation, it could have missed a narrow glitch. Anyway, on old 8-bit micro gear, there may be plenty of narrow glitches in the 40 ns range, but the operation of the chips is most likely NOT going to depend on the circuits responding to such glitches. I think you are chasing your tail about these things, and missing a real malfunction that is not related to this. Could be EPROM bits that have faded, one shot capacitors that have changed value or something. Jon From useddec at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 23:33:28 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 23:33:28 -0600 Subject: 11/44, parts, 11/24, DZ11 Message-ID: I have at least one 11/44 for sale, at least one 11/24 for sale. I can configure them as needed within reason. They can be packed and shipped as freight carrier of your choice or pickup in IL. or IN. Please contact me off list. Also the following parts: M7090 M7094 M7095 M7096 M7097 M7098 $300/SET (several available) 70-15672 backplane $70 M7093 FP11-A make offer M7819 DZ11 board only $50 Any quantity boards ship for $10 within US. Thanks, Paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 3 23:40:48 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 05:40:48 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: <58953E2B.1060600@pico-systems.com> References: , <58953E2B.1060600@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: All the glitches are at the beginning of the ALE. There is nothing there that has any meaning. Things are changing at this time. Not every thing changes at the same rate. That is why they have an ALE to mark when the address is good. When high, the circuit address latch is open. When ALE goes low, it captures the address. You really should be looking at the processor timing diagram and understand what you are looking at. Technically a glitch at the beginning of the ALE can last until some nanoseconds before the falling edge and the circuit would work fine. These glitches are much shorter than the ALE and clearly not an issue. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jon Elson Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 6:36:27 PM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion@ Subject: Re: Logic Analysers On 02/03/2017 04:34 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >> But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations, >> not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent >> ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or 100's of >> picoseconds. That sort of order. So a 25MHz logic analyser, with an >> effective time resolution of 40ns (if that) is not going to show it. >> >> There is no way you're going to get delays of 40ns between adjacent >> ICs on any reasonable PCB. > This is the sort of thing I mean: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking.jpg > > Watching the A1 address line (no triggers just sampling 6 points) and a > pulse appears at ROM4 on the falling edge of the ALE signal but not the > other 3 ROMs or the LS373 flip-flop that's demultiplexing the AD1 pin of the > 8085. While I was thinking about the possibility of propagation delay I > noticed this one: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking2.jpg > > Pulse missing from ROM3. First pic, pulses are missing from ROMs 1-3, seen on ROM4. But, those pulses on ROM4 are really narrow, and may be noise, or very narrow glitches. Any time you see really narrow glitches, especially when they are one LA sample wide, you have no idea what they actually look like. The LA detects that the pulse was there at the instant it sampled it, but you don't know whether it was 5 ns wide, or 70 ns wide (with a 40 ns sampling period). You also don't know whether they were full-amplitude pulses or runts that just barely crossed the logic threshold of the analyzer. So, I'm not sure what you've shown there actually represents a problem or not. Especially on the 2nd picture, the pulses you have highlighted really look like a single sample wide, and if the logic levels of the analyzer are not exactly the same, or other slight deviation, it could have missed a narrow glitch. Anyway, on old 8-bit micro gear, there may be plenty of narrow glitches in the 40 ns range, but the operation of the chips is most likely NOT going to depend on the circuits responding to such glitches. I think you are chasing your tail about these things, and missing a real malfunction that is not related to this. Could be EPROM bits that have faded, one shot capacitors that have changed value or something. Jon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 3 23:44:29 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 05:44:29 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: References: , <58953E2B.1060600@pico-systems.com>, Message-ID: Remember what both Tony and I said earlier. You have to know what is suppose to be happening. Just probing around, looking for something funny looking is not usually very fruitful. You really need to spend some time looking at data sheets. Dwight ________________________________ From: dwight Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 9:40:48 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Logic Analysers All the glitches are at the beginning of the ALE. There is nothing there that has any meaning. Things are changing at this time. Not every thing changes at the same rate. That is why they have an ALE to mark when the address is good. When high, the circuit address latch is open. When ALE goes low, it captures the address. You really should be looking at the processor timing diagram and understand what you are looking at. Technically a glitch at the beginning of the ALE can last until some nanoseconds before the falling edge and the circuit would work fine. These glitches are much shorter than the ALE and clearly not an issue. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jon Elson Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 6:36:27 PM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion@ Subject: Re: Logic Analysers On 02/03/2017 04:34 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >> But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations, >> not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent >> ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or 100's of >> picoseconds. That sort of order. So a 25MHz logic analyser, with an >> effective time resolution of 40ns (if that) is not going to show it. >> >> There is no way you're going to get delays of 40ns between adjacent >> ICs on any reasonable PCB. > This is the sort of thing I mean: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking.jpg > > Watching the A1 address line (no triggers just sampling 6 points) and a > pulse appears at ROM4 on the falling edge of the ALE signal but not the > other 3 ROMs or the LS373 flip-flop that's demultiplexing the AD1 pin of the > 8085. While I was thinking about the possibility of propagation delay I > noticed this one: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking2.jpg > > Pulse missing from ROM3. First pic, pulses are missing from ROMs 1-3, seen on ROM4. But, those pulses on ROM4 are really narrow, and may be noise, or very narrow glitches. Any time you see really narrow glitches, especially when they are one LA sample wide, you have no idea what they actually look like. The LA detects that the pulse was there at the instant it sampled it, but you don't know whether it was 5 ns wide, or 70 ns wide (with a 40 ns sampling period). You also don't know whether they were full-amplitude pulses or runts that just barely crossed the logic threshold of the analyzer. So, I'm not sure what you've shown there actually represents a problem or not. Especially on the 2nd picture, the pulses you have highlighted really look like a single sample wide, and if the logic levels of the analyzer are not exactly the same, or other slight deviation, it could have missed a narrow glitch. Anyway, on old 8-bit micro gear, there may be plenty of narrow glitches in the 40 ns range, but the operation of the chips is most likely NOT going to depend on the circuits responding to such glitches. I think you are chasing your tail about these things, and missing a real malfunction that is not related to this. Could be EPROM bits that have faded, one shot capacitors that have changed value or something. Jon From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Feb 3 21:54:04 2017 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 22:54:04 -0500 Subject: Cromemco disk question Message-ID: <074173E6-D4DF-48BB-B9FE-2037B9C33C6F@verizon.net> All ? ??????????????? I?m trying to test a Cromemco 16FDC controller?long story but it?s part of a QDOS project. I?m looking for recommendations on a 5.25? disk image I could use for testing. The system is simple ? 16FDC, CompuPro RAM17 (with $C0 block disabled), and a Z80 card. The 16FDC RDOS ROM works, so I can issue commands but I need to test the disk interface part. ??????????????? Any recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Feb 4 00:05:09 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 01:05:09 -0500 Subject: One more VCF East tech class/teacher needed Message-ID: <8ef04526-00c7-b408-884e-93417b0fead7@snarc.net> We have one last 60-minute spot to fill for the Friday (March 31) tech classes at VCF East. Any topic is fair game if it has wide appeal and makes people into better vintage computing hobbyists. The topics thus far are here: http://vcfed.org/wp/classes/. Email me ** off-list ** if you'd like to volunteer. (Please avoid "someone should teach XYZ" messages -- we know what * should * be taught, we need people to DO it. :) ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Feb 4 04:44:54 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2017 10:44:54 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: <58953E2B.1060600@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 04/02/2017 02:36, "Jon Elson" wrote: >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking2.jpg >> >> Pulse missing from ROM3. > First pic, pulses are missing from ROMs 1-3, seen on ROM4. > But, those pulses on ROM4 are really narrow, and may be > noise, or very narrow glitches. Any time you see really > narrow glitches, especially when they are one LA sample > wide, you have no idea what they actually look like. The LA Gotcha, I forget that any circuit can be a haven of noise and like you say the LA is just detecting that there's something there at that point in time. The fact that the logic software even has a 'glitch filter' on each channel should've given me a clue. > the circuits responding to such glitches. I think you are > chasing your tail about these things, and missing a real > malfunction that is not related to this. Could be EPROM > bits that have faded, one shot capacitors that have changed > value or something. I've tested all the caps apart from the .47uF decoupling ones and replaced the dead or out-of-spec ones. This week I replaced all the ROMs with 'new' 2764s and changed the old sockets, I discovered that two of the original ROMs had gone open circuit. Fortunately I'd dumped them beforehand. I'll keep chipping away :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Feb 4 04:55:08 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2017 10:55:08 +0000 Subject: Logic Analysers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 04/02/2017 05:40, "dwight" wrote: > All the glitches are at the beginning of the ALE. There is nothing > there that has any meaning. Things are changing at this time. Not > every thing changes at the same rate. That is why they have an > ALE to mark when the address is good. When high, the circuit address > latch is open. When ALE goes low, it captures the address. > You really should be looking at the processor timing diagram and > understand what you are looking at. I'm doing that right now as it happens, I've got a dead tree edition of the MCS85 User Manual that has all the timings in and I'm trying to match them with what the CPU is doing. What I've been thinking is happening is because the traces I'm seeing don't match exactly on screen then there's a problem but of course as long as the transitions are happening within the right time frame there isn't a problem. > > Technically a glitch at the beginning of the ALE can last until > some nanoseconds before the falling edge and the circuit would > work fine. These glitches are much shorter than the ALE and > clearly not an issue. So I'm looking too deeply, OK. Back to the books for me then :) A > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Jon Elson > > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 6:36:27 PM > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion@ > Subject: Re: Logic Analysers > > On 02/03/2017 04:34 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >>> But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations, >>> not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent >>> ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or 100's of >>> picoseconds. That sort of order. So a 25MHz logic analyser, with an >>> effective time resolution of 40ns (if that) is not going to show it. >>> >>> There is no way you're going to get delays of 40ns between adjacent >>> ICs on any reasonable PCB. >> This is the sort of thing I mean: >> >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking.jpg >> >> Watching the A1 address line (no triggers just sampling 6 points) and a >> pulse appears at ROM4 on the falling edge of the ALE signal but not the >> other 3 ROMs or the LS373 flip-flop that's demultiplexing the AD1 pin of the >> 8085. While I was thinking about the possibility of propagation delay I >> noticed this one: >> >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking2.jpg >> >> Pulse missing from ROM3. > First pic, pulses are missing from ROMs 1-3, seen on ROM4. > But, those pulses on ROM4 are really narrow, and may be > noise, or very narrow glitches. Any time you see really > narrow glitches, especially when they are one LA sample > wide, you have no idea what they actually look like. The LA > detects that the pulse was there at the instant it sampled > it, but you don't know whether it was 5 ns wide, or 70 ns > wide (with a 40 ns sampling period). You also don't know > whether they were full-amplitude pulses or runts that just > barely crossed the logic threshold of the analyzer. So, I'm > not sure what you've shown there actually represents a > problem or not. Especially on the 2nd picture, the pulses > you have highlighted really look like a single sample wide, > and if the logic levels of the analyzer are not exactly the > same, or other slight deviation, it could have missed a > narrow glitch. Anyway, on old 8-bit micro gear, there may > be plenty of narrow glitches in the 40 ns range, but the > operation of the chips is most likely NOT going to depend on > the circuits responding to such glitches. I think you are > chasing your tail about these things, and missing a real > malfunction that is not related to this. Could be EPROM > bits that have faded, one shot capacitors that have changed > value or something. > > Jon > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Feb 4 07:47:45 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 08:47:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Logic Analysers Message-ID: <20170204134745.C08F618C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > Any time you see really narrow glitches, especially when they are one > LA sample wide, you have no idea what they actually look like. The LA > detects that the pulse was there at the instant it sampled it, but you > don't know whether it was 5 ns wide, or 70 ns wide ... You also don't > know whether they were full-amplitude pulses or runts that just barely > crossed the logic threshold of the analyzer. Which is why I always prefer to work with an LA _and_ a 'scope: the 'scope lets me see what the signals look like, how much noise/etc there is, etc, etc, while the LA can do other things - better triggering, capture longer time periods, etc. (Now they have those fancy new digitial 'scope with capture capability, and you can get the best of both worlds with one box, but I guess they are still kind of pricy.) But you can probably pick up an old 'scope for not much money on eBait. I can't imagine working on anything without one. Noel From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Feb 4 08:32:28 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2017 14:32:28 +0000 Subject: Small breakthrough (was: Re: Logic Analysers) In-Reply-To: <20170204134745.C08F618C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I've just done a little dance of joy. Whilst looking at the code and trying to cross reference it against the timing signals I was seeing for RD operations it became obvious that there was an address mixup and a RET instruction was jumping back to the wrong part of the code - a return to 0x005C was actually going back to 0x0054 which implied bit 4 could be having a problem. I piggybacked a 4116-2 onto bit 4's chip and got a burst of activity then what seemed like a crash, looking at the decoded address output I could follow the code through several loops to a IN instruction where it stopped and sure enough IO/M had gone high on the 8085 - first time I've seen that happen :D Replacing the chip and testing the old one in my 4116 tester showed it was properly dead. Onwards, ever onwards... Now I need to find out either what device should be at 0xE3 or which particular chip on the IO/M path has a stuck input (there's 3) - given this machine's failure rate at blown gates I'll not be surprised if this is the next fault. Cheers folks! On 04/02/2017 13:47, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: >> From: Jon Elson > >> Any time you see really narrow glitches, especially when they are one >> LA sample wide, you have no idea what they actually look like. The LA >> detects that the pulse was there at the instant it sampled it, but you >> don't know whether it was 5 ns wide, or 70 ns wide ... You also don't >> know whether they were full-amplitude pulses or runts that just barely >> crossed the logic threshold of the analyzer. > > Which is why I always prefer to work with an LA _and_ a 'scope: the 'scope > lets me see what the signals look like, how much noise/etc there is, etc, > etc, while the LA can do other things - better triggering, capture longer > time periods, etc. > > (Now they have those fancy new digitial 'scope with capture capability, and > you can get the best of both worlds with one box, but I guess they are still > kind of pricy.) > > But you can probably pick up an old 'scope for not much money on eBait. I > can't imagine working on anything without one. > > Noel -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 11:12:25 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 17:12:25 +0000 Subject: PDP8/e power controller connections Message-ID: I am currently rack-mounting my PDP8/e and its peripherals. And of course I want to have the peripherals power up when I turn on the CPU. I have an 861 power controller in the rack, but you can't just link that to the power control sockets on the CPU, DEC changed the wiring at some point... Let me explain. The 3 pin power control sockets on the 861 and just about every other power controller and all my PDP11s carry the following 3 signals : Ground, On/ (ground to turn the unit on) and Off/ (ground to force the unit off, e.g. for an overheat shutdown). The 3 pin sockets on the PDP8/e CPU are not wired quite in parallel. One pin is ground. Another pin is On/ (as above). But the middle pins are linked via the frontpanel switch and overheat thermostat. The normal thing to do is to put a jumper in each socket so that one side of the switch is grounded, the other goes to On/. If you have more overheat thermostats in peripheral boxes, they can be linked into the chain. There is a mains output on the PDP8/e PSU that was (according to the printset) used to operate a contactor directly to power up the peripherals. A moment's thought made me realise you could use a normal power controller with the PDP8/e. The only disadvantage is that the overheat switch in the power controller would not shut down the CPU. Since I don't run my machines unattended that is no great loss. What I did was to cut a normal DEC power control cable (with the 3 pin plug one each end) in half. Call the 2 halves 'CPU' and 'Pwr' Then wire as follows : CPU/Green (Gnd) - Pwr/Green (Gnd) CPU/Red (On/) --->|--- CPU/Black (Switch) Pwr/Red (On/) --->|--- CPU/Black (Switch) Pwr/Black (Off/) : Not connected Now plug the ends into the power controller and one of the CPU power control sockets (make sure you have them the right way round). In the other CPU power control socket fit the jumper plug that links the middle pin to ground. The idea is that when the CPU switch turns on, both the CPU On/ line and the power controller On/ line are pulled to ground via the diodes. The diodes prevent the voltage from one power switching circuit ending up in the other. The diodes can be just about anything that will carry the power relay coil current. I used 1N4007's as I happen to have them to hand. I built it in a spare telephone junction box with 6 pairs of terminals. One set of terminals carries the cables. The other set carries the diodes and a wire between the 2 ground wires. Needless to say construction is not critical. It's very low speed, it's about 24V (and isolated from the mains) at < 1A. -tony From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Feb 4 12:00:39 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 18:00:39 +0000 Subject: Macintosh Floppy Message-ID: Anybody interested in a Sony MP-F75W-21G? I have one to dispose of as I got rid of all my Mac stuff a long time ago. Make an offer. bill From useddec at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 13:40:13 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 13:40:13 -0600 Subject: 11/44, parts, 11/24, DZ11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Opps...That should read FP11-F. Sorry, I changed drugs recently.... On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 11:33 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have at least one 11/44 for sale, at least one 11/24 for sale. I can > configure them as needed within reason. They can be packed and shipped as > freight carrier of your choice or pickup in IL. or IN. Please contact me > off list. > > Also the following parts: > > M7090 > M7094 > M7095 > M7096 > M7097 > M7098 > > $300/SET (several available) > > 70-15672 backplane $70 > > M7093 FP11-A make offer > > M7819 DZ11 board only $50 > > Any quantity boards ship for $10 within US. > > Thanks, Paul > From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 20:21:09 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 18:21:09 -0800 Subject: Need to borrow Amiga 2000/3000 keyboard near Oakland, CA... Message-ID: I ordered a PS/2 -> amiga adapter for the fine folks at the MADE in oakland: https://www.yelp.com/biz/the-museum-of-art-and-digital-entertainment-oakland But I fear it may not arrive in time for their 2/27 show. Is there anyone local who could loan these good folks an Amiga 2K or 3K keyboard? I'm remote and cannot do so. -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Feb 4 23:26:43 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 00:26:43 -0500 Subject: Need to borrow Amiga 2000/3000 keyboard near Oakland, CA... Message-ID: <1a9c4de.253d58db.45c81193@aol.com> where do you get a thing like that to convert IBM keyboard for the Amiga's use? we have a Amiga with toaster we need a keyboard for, Prefer the real Amiga one but.... In a message dated 2/4/2017 7:21:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, ian.finder at gmail.com writes: I ordered a PS/2 -> amiga adapter for the fine folks at the MADE in oakland: https://www.yelp.com/biz/the-museum-of-art-and-digital-entertainment-oakland But I fear it may not arrive in time for their 2/27 show. Is there anyone local who could loan these good folks an Amiga 2K or 3K keyboard? I'm remote and cannot do so. -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 06:16:44 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 07:16:44 -0500 Subject: Cromemco disk question In-Reply-To: <074173E6-D4DF-48BB-B9FE-2037B9C33C6F@verizon.net> References: <074173E6-D4DF-48BB-B9FE-2037B9C33C6F@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 10:54 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > All ? > > > > I?m trying to test a Cromemco 16FDC controller?long story > but it?s part of a QDOS project. I?m looking for recommendations on a 5.25? > disk image I could use for testing. The system is simple ? 16FDC, CompuPro > RAM17 (with $C0 block disabled), and a Z80 card. The 16FDC RDOS ROM works, > so I can issue commands but I need to test the disk interface part. > > > > Any recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks! > > > > > http://vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/Cromemco/ One of these should work, note txt files that explain some of them. Bill From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Feb 4 11:23:54 2017 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2017 12:23:54 -0500 Subject: Cromemco disk question In-Reply-To: References: <074173E6-D4DF-48BB-B9FE-2037B9C33C6F@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5EE6F448-DEB9-4990-9A79-E8A02E75B281@verizon.net> Thanks Bill. I downloaded a few of them?none of the smaller ones fully booted (only the 16K BASIC got to the ?Standby? message) on my test setup but I could read and write the disks using the RDOS monitor and it partially passed the ?T? test (it stopped with a sector error half-way). I?m using a TM100-2A drive (DSDD 360K 5.25?). So, I think I feel good that the board works. I would have loved to get it to fully boot into something but it?s probably close enough for now. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 On 2/4/17, 7:16 AM, "cctech on behalf of william degnan" wrote: On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 10:54 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > All ? > > > > I?m trying to test a Cromemco 16FDC controller?long story > but it?s part of a QDOS project. I?m looking for recommendations on a 5.25? > disk image I could use for testing. The system is simple ? 16FDC, CompuPro > RAM17 (with $C0 block disabled), and a Z80 card. The 16FDC RDOS ROM works, > so I can issue commands but I need to test the disk interface part. > > > > Any recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks! > > > > > http://vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/Cromemco/ One of these should work, note txt files that explain some of them. Bill From mark at matlockfamily.com Sat Feb 4 18:03:51 2017 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 18:03:51 -0600 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: >> On Feb 2, 2017, at 11:19 PM, william degnan wrote: >> ... >> I am curious to see what OS's run on an 11/40 without the EIS card other >> than RT-11. I am researching this. I have always wanted to learn more >> about batch-11. > > You mean DOS/BATCH? Yes, that would run on that machine, it's an 11/20 OS. So would the pre-Batch version of DOS-11 (V4). > > Another OS that would run on your machine (as well as an 11/20) would be RSTS-11 (V4, or I suppose V3 if you can find that), the predecessor of RSTS/E that didn't use the MMU. > > It may be that some flavors of RSX-11/M or /S can be built with no EIS, since it's supposed to be possible to build a non-MMU version at least of /S. But I don't know the specifics (no RSX experience). > > paul Bill, Paul, I have been tinkering with old versions of RSX11M (back to V2) on non-mapped CPUs, primarily PDP-11/05 as I hope to get mine running soon. On Simh with the CPU set as a PDP-11/05 which does not have EIS (I also tried an 11/40 but the SET CPU NOEIS in Simh gave me an error so I couldn't be sure if it was disabled) I was able to boot the baseline distribution for RSX11M V4.0 on a RL02 distribution. See details below on the config I tested. RSX11M is a pretty capable multitasking, multiuser system and would be good fit for the PDP-11/40. Best, Mark sim> sho cpu CPU 11/05, idle enabled, autoconfiguration enabled 64KB sim> sh rl RL RL11, address=17774400-17774411, vector=160, 4 units RL0 2621KW, attached to rsxm32.rl01, on line write enabled, RL01 RL1 2621KW, attached to excprv.rl01, on line write enabled, RL01 RL2 2621KW, attached to mcrsrc.rl01, on line write enabled, RL01 RL3 2621KW, attached to rlutil.rl01, on line write enabled, RL01 sim> b rl RSX-11M V4.0 BL32 28.K (BASELINE) >RED DL:=SY: >RED DL:=LB: >MOU DL:RSXM32 >@DL:[1,2]STARTUP >* PLEASE ENTER TIME AND DATE (HR:MN DD-MMM-YY) [S]: 17:52 04-FEB-80 >TIM 17:52 04-FEB-80 >* ENTER LINE WIDTH OF THIS TERMINAL [D D:132.]: 80. >SET /BUF=TI:80. >@ >dev DL0: Mounted Loaded Type=RL01 DL1: Loaded Type=RL01 TT0: NL0: TI0: CO0: TT0: CL0: TT0: LB0: DL0: SY0: DL0: >ins $pip >pip /li Directory DL0:[200,200] 4-FEB-80 17:52 BLDLAINIT.CMD;1 14. 22-JAN-82 10:19 SGNBLDDRV.CMD;1 19. 22-JAN-82 10:19 SGNKLAB.CMD;1 70. 22-JAN-82 10:19 SGNSTAND.CMD;1 4. 22-JAN-82 10:19 SYSGEN.CMD;1 85. 22-JAN-82 10:19 SYSGEN2.CMD;1 79. 22-JAN-82 10:19 SYSGEN3.CMD;1 52. 22-JAN-82 10:19 Total of 323./323. blocks in 7. files From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 06:29:10 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 07:29:10 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 7:03 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: > >> On Feb 2, 2017, at 11:19 PM, william degnan > wrote: > >> ... > >> I am curious to see what OS's run on an 11/40 without the EIS card > other > >> than RT-11. I am researching this. I have always wanted to learn more > >> about batch-11. > > > > > > > It may be that some flavors of RSX-11/M or /S can be built with no EIS, > since it's supposed to be possible to build a non-MMU version at least of > /S. But I don't know the specifics (no RSX experience). > > > > paul > > Bill, Paul, > I have been tinkering with old versions of RSX11M (back to V2) on > non-mapped CPUs, primarily PDP-11/05 as I hope to get mine running soon. On > Simh > with the CPU set as a PDP-11/05 which does not have EIS (I also tried an > 11/40 but the SET CPU NOEIS in Simh gave me an error so I couldn't be sure > if it was disabled) I was able to boot the baseline distribution for RSX11M > V4.0 on a RL02 distribution. See details below on the config I tested. > RSX11M is a pretty capable multitasking, multiuser system and would be good > fit for the PDP-11/40. > RL02 or RL01? I have only RL02 drives (2). Are you saying you can 1) Use simH to set up the environment 2) Port to RL02 image disk 3) Take image put on actual RL02? > > Best, > Mark > > sim> sho cpu > CPU 11/05, idle enabled, autoconfiguration enabled > 64KB > sim> sh rl > RL RL11, address=17774400-17774411, vector=160, 4 units > RL0 2621KW, attached to rsxm32.rl01, on line > write enabled, RL01 > RL1 2621KW, attached to excprv.rl01, on line > write enabled, RL01 > RL2 2621KW, attached to mcrsrc.rl01, on line > write enabled, RL01 > RL3 2621KW, attached to rlutil.rl01, on line > write enabled, RL01 > sim> b rl > > > RSX-11M V4.0 BL32 28.K (BASELINE) > >RED DL:=SY: > >RED DL:=LB: > >MOU DL:RSXM32 > >@DL:[1,2]STARTUP > >* PLEASE ENTER TIME AND DATE (HR:MN DD-MMM-YY) [S]: 17:52 04-FEB-80 > >TIM 17:52 04-FEB-80 > >* ENTER LINE WIDTH OF THIS TERMINAL [D D:132.]: 80. > >SET /BUF=TI:80. > >@ > >dev > DL0: Mounted Loaded Type=RL01 > DL1: Loaded Type=RL01 > TT0: > NL0: > TI0: > CO0: TT0: > CL0: TT0: > LB0: DL0: > SY0: DL0: > >ins $pip > >pip /li > > > Directory DL0:[200,200] > 4-FEB-80 17:52 > > BLDLAINIT.CMD;1 14. 22-JAN-82 10:19 > SGNBLDDRV.CMD;1 19. 22-JAN-82 10:19 > SGNKLAB.CMD;1 70. 22-JAN-82 10:19 > SGNSTAND.CMD;1 4. 22-JAN-82 10:19 > SYSGEN.CMD;1 85. 22-JAN-82 10:19 > SYSGEN2.CMD;1 79. 22-JAN-82 10:19 > SYSGEN3.CMD;1 52. 22-JAN-82 10:19 > > Total of 323./323. blocks in 7. files > > > I agree that it would run on the PDP 11/40 without EIS, but so far I have not been able to get it onto an image that will write to actual RL02 disks. I was playing around with this yesterday. I was also working on getting Fortran onto a RT11 disk and in general building a dual drive system that has a programming environment with enough space to save program and a dataset. I have a lot of RSX11/M manuals and docs here, compared with RT11 I'd love to use RSX. Are tools made for RSX compatible with RT-11, I am reading up to see how these compare, what levels they're on...is RT11 like DOS and RSX like "Windows" that sits on top of it, etc. I know RSX is not a GUI, just making an analogy. I am researching all of this, up to this point I had only dabbled in RT11. Thanks Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 06:04:56 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 07:04:56 -0500 Subject: Cromemco disk question In-Reply-To: <5EE6F448-DEB9-4990-9A79-E8A02E75B281@verizon.net> References: <074173E6-D4DF-48BB-B9FE-2037B9C33C6F@verizon.net> <5EE6F448-DEB9-4990-9A79-E8A02E75B281@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Feb 5, 2017 6:21 AM, "Richard Cini" wrote: > > Thanks Bill. I downloaded a few of them?none of the smaller ones fully booted (only the 16K BASIC got to the ?Standby? message) on my test setup but I could read and write the disks using the RDOS monitor and it partially passed the ?T? test (it stopped with a sector error half-way). I?m using a TM100-2A drive (DSDD 360K 5.25?). So, I think I feel good that the board works. I would have loved to get it to fully boot into something but it?s probably close enough for now. > > Thanks! > > Rich Glad to hear. B From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Feb 5 14:19:27 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 12:19:27 -0800 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> pictures and firmware now uploaded to http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/lmi/ does anyone still have schematics for the Lambda? would be nice to archive a set for the artifacts in CHM's collection. On 1/25/17 5:43 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > If there is anyone out there who has access to or knows someone who has access to an LMI Lambda in any condition or > configuration, please contact me. > From john at forecast.name Sun Feb 5 14:18:30 2017 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 15:18:30 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02091E73-47CB-48B8-93B5-74C792DA48F2@forecast.name> > On Feb 5, 2017, at 7:29 AM, william degnan wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 7:03 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: > >>>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 11:19 PM, william degnan >> wrote: >>>> ... >>>> I am curious to see what OS's run on an 11/40 without the EIS card >> other >>>> than RT-11. I am researching this. I have always wanted to learn more >>>> about batch-11. >>> >> >>> >>> It may be that some flavors of RSX-11/M or /S can be built with no EIS, >> since it's supposed to be possible to build a non-MMU version at least of >> /S. But I don't know the specifics (no RSX experience). >>> >>> paul >> >> Bill, Paul, >> I have been tinkering with old versions of RSX11M (back to V2) on >> non-mapped CPUs, primarily PDP-11/05 as I hope to get mine running soon. On >> Simh >> with the CPU set as a PDP-11/05 which does not have EIS (I also tried an >> 11/40 but the SET CPU NOEIS in Simh gave me an error so I couldn't be sure >> if it was disabled) I was able to boot the baseline distribution for RSX11M >> V4.0 on a RL02 distribution. See details below on the config I tested. >> RSX11M is a pretty capable multitasking, multiuser system and would be good >> fit for the PDP-11/40. >> > > RL02 or RL01? I have only RL02 drives (2). Are you saying you can > > 1) Use simH to set up the environment > 2) Port to RL02 image disk > 3) Take image put on actual RL02? > > I just checked and the V3.2 distribution disks on bitsavers are RL02 images (even if they are in the RL01 directory). The baseline image is an unmapped system which is a bit restrictive for your 11/40 but there is a full mapped system on the disk. To make the mapped system the default: 1. boot the baseline unmapped system as Mark showed below. Make sure your system is configured as an 11/40. 2. type the following at the ?>? prompt ins $boo boo [1,54]rsx11m this will boot up the mapped system. 3. to make this the default (after the acs command wait for a response that the checkpoint file is inactive): acs sy:/blks=0 sav /wb now you should have a bootable mapped system which you can copy to your physical RL02. Depending on the state of your EIS board you may want to stay with the original unmapped system - I suspect that the baseline mapped system will always try to use the ?sob? instruction. John. > >> >> Best, >> Mark >> >> sim> sho cpu >> CPU 11/05, idle enabled, autoconfiguration enabled >> 64KB >> sim> sh rl >> RL RL11, address=17774400-17774411, vector=160, 4 units >> RL0 2621KW, attached to rsxm32.rl01, on line >> write enabled, RL01 >> RL1 2621KW, attached to excprv.rl01, on line >> write enabled, RL01 >> RL2 2621KW, attached to mcrsrc.rl01, on line >> write enabled, RL01 >> RL3 2621KW, attached to rlutil.rl01, on line >> write enabled, RL01 >> sim> b rl >> >> >> RSX-11M V4.0 BL32 28.K (BASELINE) >>> RED DL:=SY: >>> RED DL:=LB: >>> MOU DL:RSXM32 >>> @DL:[1,2]STARTUP >>> * PLEASE ENTER TIME AND DATE (HR:MN DD-MMM-YY) [S]: 17:52 04-FEB-80 >>> TIM 17:52 04-FEB-80 >>> * ENTER LINE WIDTH OF THIS TERMINAL [D D:132.]: 80. >>> SET /BUF=TI:80. >>> @ >>> dev >> DL0: Mounted Loaded Type=RL01 >> DL1: Loaded Type=RL01 >> TT0: >> NL0: >> TI0: >> CO0: TT0: >> CL0: TT0: >> LB0: DL0: >> SY0: DL0: >>> ins $pip >>> pip /li >> >> >> Directory DL0:[200,200] >> 4-FEB-80 17:52 >> >> BLDLAINIT.CMD;1 14. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >> SGNBLDDRV.CMD;1 19. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >> SGNKLAB.CMD;1 70. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >> SGNSTAND.CMD;1 4. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >> SYSGEN.CMD;1 85. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >> SYSGEN2.CMD;1 79. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >> SYSGEN3.CMD;1 52. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >> >> Total of 323./323. blocks in 7. files >> >> >> > > I agree that it would run on the PDP 11/40 without EIS, but so far I have > not been able to get it onto an image that will write to actual RL02 > disks. I was playing around with this yesterday. > > I was also working on getting Fortran onto a RT11 disk and in general > building a dual drive system that has a programming environment with enough > space to save program and a dataset. > > I have a lot of RSX11/M manuals and docs here, compared with RT11 I'd love > to use RSX. Are tools made for RSX compatible with RT-11, I am reading up > to see how these compare, what levels they're on...is RT11 like DOS and RSX > like "Windows" that sits on top of it, etc. I know RSX is not a GUI, just > making an analogy. I am researching all of this, up to this point I had > only dabbled in RT11. > > Thanks > > Bill From john at forecast.name Sun Feb 5 14:33:28 2017 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 15:33:28 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <02091E73-47CB-48B8-93B5-74C792DA48F2@forecast.name> References: <02091E73-47CB-48B8-93B5-74C792DA48F2@forecast.name> Message-ID: > On Feb 5, 2017, at 3:18 PM, John Forecast wrote: > > >> On Feb 5, 2017, at 7:29 AM, william degnan wrote: >> >> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 7:03 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: >> >>>>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 11:19 PM, william degnan >>> wrote: >>>>> ... >>>>> I am curious to see what OS's run on an 11/40 without the EIS card >>> other >>>>> than RT-11. I am researching this. I have always wanted to learn more >>>>> about batch-11. >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> It may be that some flavors of RSX-11/M or /S can be built with no EIS, >>> since it's supposed to be possible to build a non-MMU version at least of >>> /S. But I don't know the specifics (no RSX experience). >>>> >>>> paul >>> >>> Bill, Paul, >>> I have been tinkering with old versions of RSX11M (back to V2) on >>> non-mapped CPUs, primarily PDP-11/05 as I hope to get mine running soon. On >>> Simh >>> with the CPU set as a PDP-11/05 which does not have EIS (I also tried an >>> 11/40 but the SET CPU NOEIS in Simh gave me an error so I couldn't be sure >>> if it was disabled) I was able to boot the baseline distribution for RSX11M >>> V4.0 on a RL02 distribution. See details below on the config I tested. >>> RSX11M is a pretty capable multitasking, multiuser system and would be good >>> fit for the PDP-11/40. >>> >> >> RL02 or RL01? I have only RL02 drives (2). Are you saying you can >> >> 1) Use simH to set up the environment >> 2) Port to RL02 image disk >> 3) Take image put on actual RL02? >> >> > I just checked and the V3.2 distribution disks on bitsavers are RL02 images (even if > they are in the RL01 directory). The baseline image is an unmapped system which is > a bit restrictive for your 11/40 but there is a full mapped system on the disk. To make > the mapped system the default: > > 1. boot the baseline unmapped system as Mark showed below. Make sure your > system is configured as an 11/40. > > 2. type the following at the ?>? prompt > > ins $boo > boo [1,54]rsx11m > > this will boot up the mapped system. > > 3. to make this the default (after the acs command wait for a response that the > checkpoint file is inactive): > > acs sy:/blks=0 > sav /wb > > now you should have a bootable mapped system which you can copy to your > physical RL02. Depending on the state of your EIS board you may want to > stay with the original unmapped system - I suspect that the baseline mapped > system will always try to use the ?sob? instruction. > I think you should be OK with the mapped system. I just took a look at the v3.2 installation guide and it does not include a question about using EIS, that option appears to have been added in v4.x. John. > John. > >> >>> >>> Best, >>> Mark >>> >>> sim> sho cpu >>> CPU 11/05, idle enabled, autoconfiguration enabled >>> 64KB >>> sim> sh rl >>> RL RL11, address=17774400-17774411, vector=160, 4 units >>> RL0 2621KW, attached to rsxm32.rl01, on line >>> write enabled, RL01 >>> RL1 2621KW, attached to excprv.rl01, on line >>> write enabled, RL01 >>> RL2 2621KW, attached to mcrsrc.rl01, on line >>> write enabled, RL01 >>> RL3 2621KW, attached to rlutil.rl01, on line >>> write enabled, RL01 >>> sim> b rl >>> >>> >>> RSX-11M V4.0 BL32 28.K (BASELINE) >>>> RED DL:=SY: >>>> RED DL:=LB: >>>> MOU DL:RSXM32 >>>> @DL:[1,2]STARTUP >>>> * PLEASE ENTER TIME AND DATE (HR:MN DD-MMM-YY) [S]: 17:52 04-FEB-80 >>>> TIM 17:52 04-FEB-80 >>>> * ENTER LINE WIDTH OF THIS TERMINAL [D D:132.]: 80. >>>> SET /BUF=TI:80. >>>> @ >>>> dev >>> DL0: Mounted Loaded Type=RL01 >>> DL1: Loaded Type=RL01 >>> TT0: >>> NL0: >>> TI0: >>> CO0: TT0: >>> CL0: TT0: >>> LB0: DL0: >>> SY0: DL0: >>>> ins $pip >>>> pip /li >>> >>> >>> Directory DL0:[200,200] >>> 4-FEB-80 17:52 >>> >>> BLDLAINIT.CMD;1 14. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >>> SGNBLDDRV.CMD;1 19. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >>> SGNKLAB.CMD;1 70. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >>> SGNSTAND.CMD;1 4. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >>> SYSGEN.CMD;1 85. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >>> SYSGEN2.CMD;1 79. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >>> SYSGEN3.CMD;1 52. 22-JAN-82 10:19 >>> >>> Total of 323./323. blocks in 7. files >>> >>> >>> >> >> I agree that it would run on the PDP 11/40 without EIS, but so far I have >> not been able to get it onto an image that will write to actual RL02 >> disks. I was playing around with this yesterday. >> >> I was also working on getting Fortran onto a RT11 disk and in general >> building a dual drive system that has a programming environment with enough >> space to save program and a dataset. >> >> I have a lot of RSX11/M manuals and docs here, compared with RT11 I'd love >> to use RSX. Are tools made for RSX compatible with RT-11, I am reading up >> to see how these compare, what levels they're on...is RT11 like DOS and RSX >> like "Windows" that sits on top of it, etc. I know RSX is not a GUI, just >> making an analogy. I am researching all of this, up to this point I had >> only dabbled in RT11. >> >> Thanks >> >> Bill > From w2hx at w2hx.com Sun Feb 5 15:36:24 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 13:36:24 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e M8310 Help Message-ID: Hello folks, I have a PDP-8/e where I've tested all the boards in a friend's PDP-8/e and they are all generally ok with the exception of the M8310 which did not work in his machine. I started to do some very rudimentary analysis of the what isn't working. I did the following. 7100 CLA clear AC 7040 CMA (complement the AC) 7040 CMA 7040 CMA 7040 CMA The complementing worked fine. I set the switch to AC and single stepped through the little program and watched the all 12 lights alternate on and then off. So far so good. I then did this: 7100 CLA 7001 IAC (increment AC) 7001 IAC 7001 IAC 7001 IAC And nothing happened, no incrementing of AC took place. So I may be onto something here. I then looked at the link bit which I believe is viewed by setting the switch to STATUS and looking at bit 0 "LINK" I did the following program: 7100 CLA (Clear Link) 7020 CML (complement Link) 7020 CML 7020 CML And I found that the link was not alternating. The lamp was lit at all time unlike the same test with the CMA. I then read in the Maintenance Manual Volume 1 on page 4-7, Item 11 which gives the following symptom "CPMA, MB, PC, or AC do not increment" And the likely cause of "CAR IN L is always high to the adder. It should be generated for ..." and presents a series of events that should cause the CAR IN L to assert. Now two questions. 1) It appears that CPMA, MB and PC all do increment but the AC does not. Does this help me to narrow down which of the events a. through f. listed might be my problem? 2) Is the link bits inability to complement help narrow down the issue? 3) Might anyone know what the fault is? 4) Are there any other steps you might suggest I take to further narrow down the fault? Thanks Eugene From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Feb 5 15:53:08 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 16:53:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark Matlock > I also tried an 11/40 but the SET CPU NOEIS in Simh gave me an error In Ersatz-11, an -11/40 without EIS works properly (i.e. it doesn't :-): that's how I recognized his booting error! ;-) > From: John Forecast > Depending on the state of your EIS board you may want to stay with the > original un-mapped system - I suspect that the baseline mapped system > will always try to use the "sob" instruction. No matter; SOB is part of the baseline instruction set in the -11/40. The EIS board adds only MUL, DIV, ASH and ASHC. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 19:29:07 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 20:29:07 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Mark Matlock > > > I also tried an 11/40 but the SET CPU NOEIS in Simh gave me an error > > In Ersatz-11, an -11/40 without EIS works properly (i.e. it doesn't :-): > that's how I recognized his booting error! ;-) > > > From: John Forecast > > > Depending on the state of your EIS board you may want to stay with > the > > original un-mapped system - I suspect that the baseline mapped system > > will always try to use the "sob" instruction. > > No matter; SOB is part of the baseline instruction set in the -11/40. The > EIS > board adds only MUL, DIV, ASH and ASHC. > > Noel > Noel, Thanks for clarification. Mark and John, Summarizing...The disks in the RL01 directory are 5MB, which is the RL01 disk size I believed, but if they are RL02, why would I not use "RL02" in the simh commands? For example the code Mark wrote with John's changes, should it not be rlo2, not rl01? sim> sho cpu CPU 11/40, idle enabled, autoconfiguration enabled 64KB sim> sh rl RL RL11, address=17774400-17774411, vector=160, 4 units RL0 2621KW, attached to rsxm32.rl01, on line write enabled, RL01 RL1 2621KW, attached to excprv.rl01, on line write enabled, RL01 RL2 2621KW, attached to mcrsrc.rl01, on line write enabled, RL01 RL3 2621KW, attached to rlutil.rl01, on line write enabled, RL01 sim> b rl --- 1. boot the baseline unmapped system as Mark showed below. Make sure your system is configured as an 11/40. 2. type the following at the ?>? prompt ins $boo boo [1,54]rsx11m this will boot up the mapped system. 3. to make this the default (after the acs command wait for a response that the checkpoint file is inactive): acs sy:/blks=0 sav /wb now you should have a bootable mapped system which you can copy to your physical RL02. I plan to use PDPGUI to port the disk images to my PDP 11/40 actual RL02(s). I have done this a number of times, built RT-11 versions that way. Works well. Thanks again. Bill Degnan From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sun Feb 5 21:09:44 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 21:09:44 -0600 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Feb 5, 2017, at 2:19 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > pictures and firmware now uploaded to > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/lmi/ > > does anyone still have schematics for the Lambda? would be nice to archive a set for the artifacts in CHM's collection. Not that we are aware of. It would have saved literally a year in our development because we wouldn?t have had to work out the paging and GC bits the hard way. Do you have any experience dumping the contents of SMD disks? RG has at least two Lambdas in his garage, but conditions are bad and they have been exposed to outside air for who knows how long; it will be another several months before he returns to the east coast. I?m considering a trip out to see if there?s anything salvageable. Hopefully if nothing else the disk contents can be read out. If you can read/write on your disk, we can give you software to run on your machine(s). It uses 1024-byte sectors. From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sun Feb 5 21:16:17 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 21:16:17 -0600 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: Everyone point and laugh; I am ten kinds of stupid. Would everyone who isn?t Al pretend you did not see the previous email please? :) > On Feb 5, 2017, at 9:09 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > >> On Feb 5, 2017, at 2:19 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> pictures and firmware now uploaded to >> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/lmi/ >> >> does anyone still have schematics for the Lambda? would be nice to archive a set for the artifacts in CHM's collection. > > Not that we are aware of. It would have saved literally a year in our development because we wouldn?t have had to work out the paging and GC bits the hard way. > > Do you have any experience dumping the contents of SMD disks? RG has at least two Lambdas in his garage, but conditions are bad and they have been exposed to outside air for who knows how long; it will be another several months before he returns to the east coast. I?m considering a trip out to see if there?s anything salvageable. Hopefully if nothing else the disk contents can be read out. > > If you can read/write on your disk, we can give you software to run on your machine(s). It uses 1024-byte sectors. > From john at forecast.name Sun Feb 5 22:11:51 2017 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 23:11:51 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> > On Feb 5, 2017, at 8:29 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >>> From: Mark Matlock >> >>> I also tried an 11/40 but the SET CPU NOEIS in Simh gave me an error >> >> In Ersatz-11, an -11/40 without EIS works properly (i.e. it doesn't :-): >> that's how I recognized his booting error! ;-) >> >>> From: John Forecast >> >>> Depending on the state of your EIS board you may want to stay with >> the >>> original un-mapped system - I suspect that the baseline mapped system >>> will always try to use the "sob" instruction. >> >> No matter; SOB is part of the baseline instruction set in the -11/40. The >> EIS >> board adds only MUL, DIV, ASH and ASHC. >> >> Noel >> > > Noel, > Thanks for clarification. > > Mark and John, > Summarizing...The disks in the RL01 directory are 5MB, which is the RL01 > disk size I believed, but if they are RL02, why would I not use "RL02" in > the simh commands? > > For example the code Mark wrote with John's changes, should it not be rlo2, > not rl01? > > sim> sho cpu > CPU 11/40, idle enabled, autoconfiguration enabled > 64KB > sim> sh rl > RL RL11, address=17774400-17774411, vector=160, 4 units > RL0 2621KW, attached to rsxm32.rl01, on line > write enabled, RL01 > RL1 2621KW, attached to excprv.rl01, on line > write enabled, RL01 > RL2 2621KW, attached to mcrsrc.rl01, on lineBRU (Backup and restore > write enabled, RL01 > RL3 2621KW, attached to rlutil.rl01, on line > write enabled, RL01 > sim> b rl > The v3.2 version I have from bitsavers has the baseline disk a few bytes larger than an RL01 so simH autosized it (incorrectly) to an RL02. Hopefully Mark?s new sizing code should avoid this in the future. To copy an RL01 RSX disk to an RL02 you can use BRU (Backup and Restore Utility). Get the magtape image BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap from bitsavers. Attach your RL01 image to rl0 and create a new RL02 image attached to rl1. Boot the magtape: first device is dl0: second device is dl1: At the ?>? prompt type ?run bru? At the ?BRU>? prompt type ?/init dl0: dl1:? and it will perform the copy. If you copied the baseline system, you should be able to boot the newly created RL02. John. --- > > 1. boot the baseline unmapped system as Mark showed below. Make sure your > system is configured as an 11/40. > > 2. type the following at the ?>? prompt > > ins $boo > boo [1,54]rsx11m > > this will boot up the mapped system. > > 3. to make this the default (after the acs command wait for a > response that the > checkpoint file is inactive): > > acs sy:/blks=0 > sav /wb > > now you should have a bootable mapped system which you can copy to > your > physical RL02. > > I plan to use PDPGUI to port the disk images to my PDP 11/40 actual > RL02(s). I have done this a number of times, built RT-11 versions that > way. Works well. > > Thanks again. > > Bill Degnan From mark at matlockfamily.com Sun Feb 5 15:48:59 2017 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 15:48:59 -0600 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? Message-ID: <3C73D8C9-7313-4F39-A173-02F13A5CA936@MatlockFamily.com> >> Bill, Paul, >> I have been tinkering with old versions of RSX11M (back to V2) on >> non-mapped CPUs, primarily PDP-11/05 as I hope to get mine running soon. On >> Simh >> with the CPU set as a PDP-11/05 which does not have EIS (I also tried an >> 11/40 but the SET CPU NOEIS in Simh gave me an error so I couldn't be sure >> if it was disabled) I was able to boot the baseline distribution for RSX11M >> V4.0 on a RL02 distribution. See details below on the config I tested. >> RSX11M is a pretty capable multitasking, multiuser system and would be good >> fit for the PDP-11/40. > > RL02 or RL01? I have only RL02 drives (2). Are you saying you can Bill, My first PDP-11 system was a PDP-11/24 (256KB) with 2 RL02s. It ran RSX11M V4.0 and collected RS232 data from lab instruments and provided a programming environment and handled 3 or 4 users ok. Later we added a KT24 and went to 512KB. With 2 RL02s one was a system disk and one was a user/data disk. The utility BRU allowed you to make a copy of the system disk, but to backup the data disk, one has to boot BRUSYS.SYS which is a memory resident only RSX11S system that RSX11M includes so you can remove the system disk and make a disk to disk copy of the non-bootable user disk. Actually, BRUSYS.SYS is small and you can have the user disk boot block point to it for convenience. > 1) Use simH to set up the environment RSX11M especially in small memory systems should be customized to your hardware. If you have extra DL or DZ terminal ports or other hardware you will need to do this. You can use the RL02 disk emulation, but have 4 of them for convenience so you don't to swap disk images during the process. Once you have SYSGENed an RSX11M system you are happy with then the RL02 disk image file needs to be transferred to an RL02 pack. > 2) Port to RL02 image disk This is the tricky part. RSX11M+ can run a TCP/IP stack and the disk image could be FTPed to it from the Linux or Windows system running Simh. M+ could mount the disk image file and BRU the image to a physical disk (if the M+ system had an RL02 Drive). I don't have RL02s and don't know anyone who does. Also, you might find a Baseline RSX11M disk someone has which can be copied and booted. > 3) Take image put on actual RL02? Since we are unlikely to find a SYSTEM to do that then, the other way would be with PDPGUI from Jorge Hoppe. His PDPGUI program can load via ODT a small driver to write to an RL02 and then transfer a disk image over the console port. It would take quite a while but it can be done. http://retrocmp.com/pdp-11/pdp11gui/disk-images-readwrite This assumes you have ODT and I don't know if an 11/40 does. The !1/05 doesn't either but Jorge found that a M9312 bootstrap card with ODT ROMs will enable ODT on an 11/05 so it should work on an 11/40? http://retrocmp.com/how-tos/interfacing-to-a-pdp-1105/194-interfacing-with-a-pdp-11-05-serial-console-monitor > I agree that it would run on the PDP 11/40 without EIS, but so far I have > not been able to get it onto an image that will write to actual RL02 > disks. I was playing around with this yesterday. > > I was also working on getting Fortran onto a RT11 disk and in general > building a dual drive system that has a programming environment with enough > space to save program and a dataset. RT11 would work very well on two RL02s as well. In fact, one can get by with two RX02s. It is a much simpler operating system. > I have a lot of RSX11/M manuals and docs here, compared with RT11 I'd love > to use RSX. Are tools made for RSX compatible with RT-11, I am reading up > to see how these compare, what levels they're on...is RT11 like DOS and RSX > like "Windows" that sits on top of it, etc. I know RSX is not a GUI, just > making an analogy. I am researching all of this, up to this point I had > only dabbled in RT11. RT-11 and RSX11M are quite different internally. RT-11 is a single user monitor that was extended to multiuser with some later version and via the TSX operating system. TSX is more like your Windows analogy. The RSX11M executive was written from the ground up with conditional assembly code that can be customized for your hardware so any code for hardware not needed can be left out. When you do a SYSGEN you actually compile the assembly source for much of the operating system and then link (TasK Build, TKB) it. Utilities come in object libraries and can be modified a bit when linking. Also, many of the features of the OS can be left out if you don't need them. It was designed to have executive calls that were compatible with RSX11M and IAS which ran only on large systems. Much of the same languages can be run on RSX and RT11 (Fortran, Basic, Macro, APL) and RSX can read RT-11 tapes and disks with the utility FLX. Good Luck, Mark > > Thanks > > Bill From anders at abc80.net Mon Feb 6 03:28:40 2017 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 10:28:40 +0100 Subject: Updated Spacewar for the PDP-8/I, 8/E, etc.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used Lyle's updated version to show Spacewar on my PDP-8/a during this weekends retro event "RetroGathering" in Sweden. It works great! I did two modifications to the code: 1. Use digital IO instead of the switch register so I could use hand controls to let the audience play the game. 2. Fixed a bug so that timer interrupts is turned on if the DK8-EP programmable real time clock is used. /Anders > >I just updated D.E. Wrege's Spacewar as follows: > >1. Correctly supports slow monitors attached to a VC8/E interface by >correcting mistakes made in the VC8/E driver code. The code now follows >DEC's recommended method of waiting on the VC8/E. > >2. Starts up with spaceships (as opposed to UFO's) per the original >Spacewar! by Steve Russell. > >3. Now supports the DK8-EC Crystal Clock > >Items 1 & 2 were released by me previously - but support for the >DK8-EC is brand new. > >The new source and listing can be picked up via anonymous FTP to >bickleywest.com and the pdp8_spcwar directory. > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 07:35:24 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 08:35:24 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> References: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> Message-ID: > > > > > > Mark and John, > > Summarizing...The disks in the RL01 directory are 5MB, which is the RL01 > > disk size I believed, but if they are RL02, why would I not use "RL02" in > > the simh commands? > > > > For example the code Mark wrote with John's changes, should it not be > rlo2, > > not rl01? > > > > sim> sho cpu > > CPU 11/40, idle enabled, autoconfiguration enabled > > 64KB > > sim> sh rl > > RL RL11, address=17774400-17774411, vector=160, 4 units > > RL0 2621KW, attached to rsxm32.rl01, on line > > write enabled, RL01 > > RL1 2621KW, attached to excprv.rl01, on line > > write enabled, RL01 > > RL2 2621KW, attached to mcrsrc.rl01, on lineBRU (Backup and restore > > write enabled, RL01 > > RL3 2621KW, attached to rlutil.rl01, on line > > write enabled, RL01 > > sim> b rl > > > The v3.2 version I have from bitsavers has the baseline disk a few > bytes larger than > an RL01 so simH autosized it (incorrectly) to an RL02. Hopefully > Mark?s new sizing > code should avoid this in the future. To copy an RL01 RSX disk to > an RL02 you can use > BRU (Backup and Restore Utility). Get the magtape image > BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap from bitsavers. Attach your > RL01 image to > rl0 and create a new RL02 image attached to rl1. Boot the magtape: > > first device is dl0: > second device is dl1: > > At the ?>? prompt type ?run bru? > At the ?BRU>? prompt type ?/init dl0: dl1:? and it will perform > the copy. If you copied the > baseline system, you should be able to boot the newly created RL02. > > John. > > So essentially what you're saying is that simH by luck converted the disk to RL02 because it was converted to disk format incorrectly, and that at some point the disk image ballooned to 10MB from 5MB? Above you see the output of simh> sh rl ...after the re-sizing of the disk, would this config fail to be able to load the disks because they were resized? At some point these RL01's were changed to RL02s? Or can you with simH simply load an RL02 disk even though you set the rl = RL01? See what I mean? Bill From john at forecast.name Mon Feb 6 10:08:20 2017 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 11:08:20 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> Message-ID: > On Feb 6, 2017, at 8:35 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> >> >>> >>> Mark and John, >>> Summarizing...The disks in the RL01 directory are 5MB, which is the RL01 >>> disk size I believed, but if they are RL02, why would I not use "RL02" in >>> the simh commands? >>> >>> For example the code Mark wrote with John's changes, should it not be >> rlo2, >>> not rl01? >>> >>> sim> sho cpu >>> CPU 11/40, idle enabled, autoconfiguration enabled >>> 64KB >>> sim> sh rl >>> RL RL11, address=17774400-17774411, vector=160, 4 units >>> RL0 2621KW, attached to rsxm32.rl01, on line >>> write enabled, RL01 >>> RL1 2621KW, attached to excprv.rl01, on line >>> write enabled, RL01 >>> RL2 2621KW, attached to mcrsrc.rl01, on lineBRU (Backup and restore >>> write enabled, RL01 >>> RL3 2621KW, attached to rlutil.rl01, on line >>> write enabled, RL01 >>> sim> b rl >>> >> The v3.2 version I have from bitsavers has the baseline disk a few >> bytes larger than >> an RL01 so simH autosized it (incorrectly) to an RL02. Hopefully >> Mark?s new sizing >> code should avoid this in the future. To copy an RL01 RSX disk to >> an RL02 you can use >> BRU (Backup and Restore Utility). Get the magtape image >> BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap from bitsavers. Attach your >> RL01 image to >> rl0 and create a new RL02 image attached to rl1. Boot the magtape: >> >> first device is dl0: >> second device is dl1: >> >> At the ?>? prompt type ?run bru? >> At the ?BRU>? prompt type ?/init dl0: dl1:? and it will perform >> the copy. If you copied the >> baseline system, you should be able to boot the newly created RL02. >> >> John. >> >> > So essentially what you're saying is that simH by luck converted the disk > to RL02 because it was converted to disk format incorrectly, and that at > some point the disk image ballooned to 10MB from 5MB? Above you see the > output of > simh> sh rl > > ...after the re-sizing of the disk, would this config fail to be able to > load the disks because they were resized? At some point these RL01's were > changed to RL02s? Or can you with simH simply load an RL02 disk even > though you set the rl = RL01? See what I mean? > > Bill simH did not change the size of the disk image. By default, simH will automatically detect the type of disk on a particular controller (e.g. RL01/RL02, RK06/RK07) based on the size of the disk image. When I attached the image and did a?sh rl0? it showed up as an RL02 - those extra few bytes made the difference. The RSX distribution kit I have is probably from a different source. Later testing showed that I could copy the baseline disk to an RL02 using standalone BRU but I was unable to do the copy using standalone DSC (an earlier backup program). I just checked the current simH source and, if autosize is enabled, it treats any image file larger than an RL01 as an RL02. If you turn off autosizing and set the drive to RL01, it will always consider it an RL01, regardless of the actual size. Any attempt to read/write past 5MB will return an error. John. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 10:17:55 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 11:17:55 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> Message-ID: > > > > simH did not change the size of the disk image. By default, simH > will automatically > detect the type of disk on a particular controller (e.g. > RL01/RL02, RK06/RK07) based > on the size of the disk image. When I attached the image and did > a?sh rl0? it showed up > as an RL02 - those extra few bytes made the difference. The RSX > distribution kit I > have is probably from a different source. Later testing showed > that I could copy the > baseline disk to an RL02 using standalone BRU but I was unable to > do the copy using > standalone DSC (an earlier backup program). > > I just checked the current simH source and, if autosize is > enabled, it treats any image file > larger than an RL01 as an RL02. If you turn off autosizing and set > the drive to RL01, it > will always consider it an RL01, regardless of the actual size. > Any attempt to read/write > past 5MB will return an error. > > John. > > OK, thanks for explanation. I will report what happens when I try this. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 17:22:32 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 18:22:32 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> References: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> Message-ID: John or anyone...regarding this: > > > The v3.2 version I have from bitsavers has the baseline disk a few > bytes larger than > an RL01 so simH autosized it (incorrectly) to an RL02. Hopefully > Mark?s new sizing > code should avoid this in the future. To copy an RL01 RSX disk to > an RL02 you can use > BRU (Backup and Restore Utility). Get the magtape image > BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap from bitsavers. Attach your > RL01 image to > rl0 and create a new RL02 image attached to rl1. Boot the magtape: > > first device is dl0: > second device is dl1: > > > I have made the bootable RL01 image and it works in simH. I have BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap in place but what kind of tape device do I set in simH to attach it? I need to attach prior to booting and the within RSX11/M > At the ?>? prompt type ?run bru? > At the ?BRU>? prompt type ?/init dl0: dl1:? and it will perform the copy. If you copied the > baseline system, you should be able to boot the newly created RL02. I have named the blank RL02 rlRSX11M.dsk Almost there! BIll From john at forecast.name Mon Feb 6 18:09:44 2017 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 19:09:44 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> Message-ID: > On Feb 6, 2017, at 6:22 PM, william degnan wrote: > > John or anyone...regarding this: > > >>> >> The v3.2 version I have from bitsavers has the baseline disk a few >> bytes larger than >> an RL01 so simH autosized it (incorrectly) to an RL02. Hopefully >> Mark?s new sizing >> code should avoid this in the future. To copy an RL01 RSX disk to >> an RL02 you can use >> BRU (Backup and Restore Utility). Get the magtape image >> BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap from bitsavers. Attach your >> RL01 image to >> rl0 and create a new RL02 image attached to rl1. Boot the magtape: >> >> first device is dl0: >> second device is dl1: >> >> >> > > I have made the bootable RL01 image and it works in simH. I have > BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap in place but what kind of tape device do > I set in simH to attach it? I need to attach prior to booting and the > within RSX11/M > If you?ve set the simH to an 11/40 you can attach it to tq0 before booting. It will boot a standalone system so the tape is no longer needed after the boot. I was unable to successfully boot the tape in less than 256KB so make sure you have sufficient memory enabled. John. >> At the ?>? prompt type ?run bru? >> At the ?BRU>? prompt type ?/init dl0: dl1:? and it will perform > the copy. If you copied the >> baseline system, you should be able to boot the newly created RL02. > > I have named the blank RL02 rlRSX11M.dsk > > Almost there! > > BIll From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 21:00:15 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 22:00:15 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> Message-ID: > > > > > > I have made the bootable RL01 image and it works in simH. I have > > BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap in place but what kind of tape device > do > > I set in simH to attach it? I need to attach prior to booting and the > > within RSX11/M > > > If you?ve set the simH to an 11/40 you can attach it to tq0 before > booting. It will > boot a standalone system so the tape is no longer needed after the > boot. I was > unable to successfully boot the tape in less than 256KB so make > sure you have > sufficient memory enabled. > > John, Summary of results, running simH on a $9.95 Next Thing Co CHIP. 1. I built an RL01 disk with RSX11/M that boots within simH using the files I found online. set cpu 11/40 set cpu 64K set rl0 writeenabled set rl0 rl01 set rl1 writeenabled set rl1 rl01 set rl2 writeenabled set rl2 rl01 set rl3 writeenabled set rl3 rl01 attach rl0 rsxm32.rl01 attach rl1 excprv.rl01 attach rl2 mcrsrc.rl01 attach rl3 rlutil.rl01 boot r1 1.5. Within RSX11/M make it boot into the mapped version each time - > ins $boo > boo [1,54]rsx11m 2. I installed a blank RL02 disk (rlRSX11M.dsk is a blank RL02) 3. I downloaded the tape from bitsavers with the program that copies from RL01 to RL02 BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap 4. Created a simh script to load up the tape. I called it RSX-11_copy2RL02.ini: set cpu 11/40 set cpu 256K set rl0 writeenabled set rl0 rl01 set rl1 writeenabled set rl1 rl02 attach rl0 rsxm32.rl01 attach rl1 rlRSX11M.dsk attach TQ0 -r BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap b TQ0 This took me into the tape utlity. I set the date and then entered the command first device is dl0: second device is dl1: > run bru BRU> /init dl0: dl1: 5. I fired up PDPGUI and used the Tools --> Read/write disk images utility to copy the RL02 disk to an actual RL02 disk on my PDP 11/40 I then checked and saw there is a wash running, my PDP 11/40 shares the washing machine circuit so I have to wait until the wash completes, it takes a number of hours to copy the disk via PDPGUI so I will probably do this in the morning. Fun! Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 21:13:12 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 22:13:12 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> Message-ID: CORRECTION: Running simH on a $9.95 Next Thing Co CHIP. 1. I built an RL01 disk with RSX11/M that boots within simH using the files I found online. set cpu 11/40 set cpu 64K set rl0 writeenabled set rl0 rl01 set rl1 writeenabled set rl1 rl01 set rl2 writeenabled set rl2 rl01 set rl3 writeenabled set rl3 rl01 attach rl0 rsxm32.rl01 attach rl1 excprv.rl01 attach rl2 mcrsrc.rl01 attach rl3 rlutil.rl01 boot r1 [set the time and date] > ins $boo > boo [1,54]rsx11m 1.5. Within RSX11/M make it boot into the mapped version each time - (after the acs command wait for a response that the checkpoint file is inactive): > acs sy:/blks=0 > sav /wb 2. I installed a blank RL02 disk (rlRSX11M.dsk is a blank RL02) 3. I downloaded the tape from bitsavers with the program that copies from RL01 to RL02 BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap 4. Created a simh script to load up the tape. I called it RSX-11_copy2RL02.ini: set cpu 11/40 set cpu 256K set rl0 writeenabled set rl0 rl01 set rl1 writeenabled set rl1 rl02 attach rl0 rsxm32.rl01 attach rl1 rlRSX11M.dsk attach TQ0 -r BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap b TQ0 This took me into the tape utlity. I set the date and then entered the command first device is dl0: second device is dl1: > run bru BRU> /init dl0: dl1: 5. I fired up PDPGUI and used the Tools --> Read/write disk images utility to copy the RL02 disk to an actual RL02 disk on my PDP 11/40 with M9312 ROM monitor running Note that you have to play around a little with the disk building process, this is the best order of steps. Make sure your system is up and running and your drive is ready to be written to. Open the terminal window and make sure you're ok. You can use it to watch the progress. 1. First set the controller type, unit, device 2. Reload Driver button This will open a window to load the program, and then a MACRO-11 window. You should next see the disk utility program being downloaded via the terminal window 3. Once this is done, you'll see the first printed on the terninal, that means your're ready to go. 4. Choose the disk image using the Load Image File button 5. Make sure you're starting at sector 0 6. Press the top middle button to write the image. You'll see activity on both the terminal and your front panel, drive light will blink once for each block. Bill Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 21:51:23 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 22:51:23 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> Message-ID: One last comment...I will edit and clean up the directions for anyone who wants them in the future here: http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=668 thanks again all. Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 21:59:22 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 22:59:22 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> Message-ID: One last comment...I will edit and clean up the directions for anyone interested http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=668 From john at forecast.name Mon Feb 6 22:42:24 2017 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 23:42:24 -0500 Subject: RL02 version of UNIX6? In-Reply-To: References: <20170205215308.187A318C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <14A9C425-99BC-4779-9F16-C3A5DE898188@forecast.name> Message-ID: > On Feb 6, 2017, at 10:13 PM, william degnan wrote: > > CORRECTION: > > Running simH on a $9.95 Next Thing Co CHIP. > > 1. I built an RL01 disk with RSX11/M that boots within simH using the > files I found online. > > set cpu 11/40 > set cpu 64K > set rl0 writeenabled > set rl0 rl01 > set rl1 writeenabled > set rl1 rl01 > set rl2 writeenabled > set rl2 rl01 > set rl3 writeenabled > set rl3 rl01 > attach rl0 rsxm32.rl01 > attach rl1 excprv.rl01 > attach rl2 mcrsrc.rl01 > attach rl3 rlutil.rl01 > boot r1 > > [set the time and date] >> ins $boo >> boo [1,54]rsx11m > > 1.5. Within RSX11/M make it boot into the mapped version each time - > (after the acs command wait for a response that the checkpoint file is > inactive): > >> acs sy:/blks=0 >> sav /wb > > 2. I installed a blank RL02 disk (rlRSX11M.dsk is a blank RL02) > > 3. I downloaded the tape from bitsavers with the program that copies from > RL01 to RL02 > BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap > > 4. Created a simh script to load up the tape. I called it > RSX-11_copy2RL02.ini: > > set cpu 11/40 > set cpu 256K > set rl0 writeenabled > set rl0 rl01 > set rl1 writeenabled > set rl1 rl02 > attach rl0 rsxm32.rl01 > attach rl1 rlRSX11M.dsk > attach TQ0 -r BB-L974F-BC_RSX11M_4.5_BRU64K.tap > b TQ0 > > This took me into the tape utlity. I set the date and then entered the > command > > first device is dl0: > second device is dl1: > >> run bru > BRU> /init dl0: dl1: > > 5. I fired up PDPGUI and used the Tools --> Read/write disk images utility > to copy the RL02 disk to an actual RL02 disk on my PDP 11/40 with M9312 ROM > monitor running > > Note that you have to play around a little with the disk building process, > this is the best order of steps. Make sure your system is up and running > and your drive is ready to be written to. Open the terminal window and > make sure you're ok. You can use it to watch the progress. > 1. First set the controller type, unit, device > 2. Reload Driver button > This will open a window to load the program, and then a MACRO-11 window. > You should next see the disk utility program being downloaded via the > terminal window > 3. Once this is done, you'll see the first printed on the > terninal, that means your're ready to go. > 4. Choose the disk image using the Load Image File button > 5. Make sure you're starting at sector 0 > 6. Press the top middle button to write the image. > > You'll see activity on both the terminal and your front panel, drive light > will blink once for each block. > > Bill > > Bill Excellent. Looks like you should be up and running pretty soon. John. From j_hoppe at t-online.de Tue Feb 7 02:56:10 2017 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 09:56:10 +0100 Subject: tu58fs - PDP-11 file sharing with TU58 tape emulator, now RT-11 Message-ID: <6db9be7b-d843-a528-b387-2df020045d19@t-online.de> Next milestone reached: tu58fs 1.0 now supports the RT-11 file system, additional to DOS11/XXDP (phew!) And its easier to use: I also precompiled binaries f?r Linux x64, Win32 Cygwin, ARM Beaglebone Black and RPi. Also some batch files show typical usage, XXDP/RT-11 tape and disk images are included. Docs on http://retrocmp.com/tools/tu58fs Precompiled releases at https://github.com/j-hoppe/tu58fs/releases The RT-11 filesystem has the special features of "extended directory entries" and "file prefixes". These are fully supported by tu58fs, but I never heard of real-life usage. Anybody can talk about it, or has RT-11 images with dir extension and/or file prefixes? best, Joerg From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 03:54:38 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 09:54:38 +0000 Subject: The Biggin Hill Omnibus Message-ID: No, not Transport For London routes 246, 320, 464, R2 or R8 :-) Some of you might like the photos here ... https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72157677925921112 -tony From jon at jonworld.com Tue Feb 7 10:16:12 2017 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 16:16:12 +0000 Subject: The Biggin Hill Omnibus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > Some of you might like the photos here ... > https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72157677925921112 Better than Coronation Street Omnibus, that's for sure. -- -Jon +44 7465 605833 From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Tue Feb 7 12:22:57 2017 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 19:22:57 +0100 Subject: The Biggin Hill Omnibus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07.02.2017 10:54, Tony Duell wrote: > No, not Transport For London routes 246, 320, 464, R2 or R8 :-) > > Some of you might like the photos here ... > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72157677925921112 > > -tony > Now there is a nice P850 ! Jos From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 7 12:32:08 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 13:32:08 -0500 Subject: The Biggin Hill Omnibus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8BF19D1C-FD0A-4BF0-A4EA-AC737368B5AE@comcast.net> > On Feb 7, 2017, at 4:54 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > No, not Transport For London routes 246, 320, 464, R2 or R8 :-) > > Some of you might like the photos here ... > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72157677925921112 Wow. Disassembling and rebuilding motors... not so crazy if it's a fan motor but then a bit later I see you took DECtape reel servos apart. And I haven't seen someone take apart and rebuild a contactor before. Nice photos, indeed. paul From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Feb 7 12:42:01 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 13:42:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Biggin Hill Omnibus In-Reply-To: <8BF19D1C-FD0A-4BF0-A4EA-AC737368B5AE@comcast.net> References: <8BF19D1C-FD0A-4BF0-A4EA-AC737368B5AE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201702071842.NAA02713@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Wow. Disassembling and rebuilding motors... not so crazy if it's a fan moto$ If I had to pick anyone as someone capable of it, though.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 12:46:43 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 18:46:43 +0000 Subject: The Biggin Hill Omnibus In-Reply-To: <8BF19D1C-FD0A-4BF0-A4EA-AC737368B5AE@comcast.net> References: <8BF19D1C-FD0A-4BF0-A4EA-AC737368B5AE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 6:32 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Feb 7, 2017, at 4:54 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> No, not Transport For London routes 246, 320, 464, R2 or R8 :-) >> >> Some of you might like the photos here ... >> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72157677925921112 > > Wow. Disassembling and rebuilding motors... not so crazy if it's a fan motor but then > a bit later I see you took DECtape reel servos apart. And I haven't seen someone > take apart and rebuild a contactor before. I'll dismantle (and often reassemble ;-)) just about anything. As for motors, I had to strip the punch motor in the PC04 today. I fitted the step-down transformer so I could run said unit, then found the motor was solid. The bearing oil had turned to something rembling tar. I will try to get photos of that uploaded soon. The only motors I am a bit careful with dismantling are permanent magnet DC ones. The field can demagnetise if you don't fit a 'keeper'. But I will do those when I have to. See the photos in my VAX11/730 album on the same site for the insides of the TS05 motor. As for the cabinet fan, the old bearings were rusted solid, but the windings were perfect, and a pair of ball races are a lot cheaper than the entire fan. Strangly said bearings were metric dimensions (which made them easier to get for me). -tony > > Nice photos, indeed. > > paul > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 12:49:39 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 18:49:39 +0000 Subject: The Biggin Hill Omnibus In-Reply-To: <201702071842.NAA02713@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <8BF19D1C-FD0A-4BF0-A4EA-AC737368B5AE@comcast.net> <201702071842.NAA02713@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 6:42 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Wow. Disassembling and rebuilding motors... not so crazy if it's a fan moto$ > > If I had to pick anyone as someone capable of it, though.... I learnt something very important about 40 years ago. And that is not to be afraid to try something because you might not be able to do it. And heck, motors are not complicated really. I have an HP9125 plotter (for the 9100 calcualtor), when I got it, both motors had open-circuit windings. I rewound them. It took me a couple of tries, but there was no alternative. -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 7 12:52:49 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 13:52:49 -0500 Subject: The Biggin Hill Omnibus In-Reply-To: References: <8BF19D1C-FD0A-4BF0-A4EA-AC737368B5AE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <68C64748-4385-42C9-9F02-E98AA45C3E80@comcast.net> > On Feb 7, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 6:32 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Feb 7, 2017, at 4:54 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>> No, not Transport For London routes 246, 320, 464, R2 or R8 :-) >>> >>> Some of you might like the photos here ... >>> >>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72157677925921112 >> >> Wow. Disassembling and rebuilding motors... > > I'll dismantle (and often reassemble ;-)) just about anything. > ... > The only motors I am a bit careful with dismantling are permanent > magnet DC ones. I still remember the DEC field service tech repairing an RC11/RS64 fixed head disk drive with a bad motor. He disassembled the drive to take out the spindle motor (which is also the platter spindle), sent it off to Appleton Electric Motors for new bearings, then put it all back together. Worked just fine, didn't even lose any data. Clearly you're working at that level, which even by the standards of 1974 professional computer technicians is right at the top of the field. paul From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 12:54:11 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 18:54:11 +0000 Subject: The Biggin Hill Omnibus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 6:22 PM, jos wrote: > On 07.02.2017 10:54, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> No, not Transport For London routes 246, 320, 464, R2 or R8 :-) >> >> Some of you might like the photos here ... >> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72157677925921112 >> >> -tony >> > Now there is a nice P850 ! Is there any other sort :-) A few other machines crept into the photos. An RK07, the P850 (with Trend Paper Tape Station), a VAX11/730, Acorn System, a Creed 7E and Creed 444 teleprinters, Versatec V80 electrostatic printer, etc. -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 13:22:49 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 19:22:49 +0000 Subject: The Biggin Hill Omnibus In-Reply-To: <68C64748-4385-42C9-9F02-E98AA45C3E80@comcast.net> References: <8BF19D1C-FD0A-4BF0-A4EA-AC737368B5AE@comcast.net> <68C64748-4385-42C9-9F02-E98AA45C3E80@comcast.net> Message-ID: > I still remember the DEC field service tech repairing an RC11/RS64 fixed head disk > drive with a bad motor. He disassembled the drive to take out the spindle motor > (which is also the platter spindle), sent it off to Appleton Electric Motors for new > bearings, then put it all back together. Worked just fine, didn't even lose any data. I think I'd be the one who strips the motor, pulls off the old bearings and presses on the replacements. > > Clearly you're working at that level, which even by the standards of 1974 professional > computer technicians is right at the top of the field. But I've not learnt to swap oiut the alternator when I can't find the tyre that is flat yet... -tony From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 13:52:42 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 15:52:42 -0400 Subject: The Biggin Hill Omnibus In-Reply-To: References: <8BF19D1C-FD0A-4BF0-A4EA-AC737368B5AE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2017-02-07 2:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 6:32 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Feb 7, 2017, at 4:54 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>> No, not Transport For London routes 246, 320, 464, R2 or R8 :-) >>> >>> Some of you might like the photos here ... >>> >>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72157677925921112 >> Wow. Disassembling and rebuilding motors... not so crazy if it's a fan motor but then >> a bit later I see you took DECtape reel servos apart. And I haven't seen someone >> take apart and rebuild a contactor before. > I'll dismantle (and often reassemble ;-)) just about anything. > > As for motors, I had to strip the punch motor in the PC04 today. I > fitted the step-down > transformer so I could run said unit, then found the motor was solid. > The bearing oil > had turned to something rembling tar. I will try to get photos of that > uploaded soon. > I have seen that happen to running motors that have sintered bronze bearings. On some old systems I serviced that had 8" diskette drives turned by an AC motor that ran all the time the system was powered on, customers rarely used the diskette drive, but we had to in order to run diagnostics on the system. We would often find the motor seized solid and hot enough to fry eggs on. We would of course replace the motor, but while I waited for the replacement, I would take out the motor pump a little oil into the bearing, and turn the motor with vice grips. The oil would dissolve that black gunk and you could get the motor going again and get on with the job while waiting for parts. I usually found that once that gunk was cleaned out the bearing had some play in them. Paul. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 16:25:30 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 17:25:30 -0500 Subject: The Biggin Hill Omnibus In-Reply-To: References: <8BF19D1C-FD0A-4BF0-A4EA-AC737368B5AE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > As for motors, I had to strip the punch motor in the PC04 today... > ...the motor was solid. The bearing oil had turned to something rembling tar. I recently did that with a Model 19 Teletype motor. The goo wasn't as black as tar, but I would call it something between "caramel" and "treacle". Bit of cleaning, bit of manipulation, and a bit of new oil and the motor spins smooth as silk. -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Feb 7 16:41:51 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 17:41:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version Message-ID: <20170207224151.C594618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I was recently provided (thanks!) with a copy of the later rev of the PDP-11/24 Tech Manual (EK-11024-TM-003), which I have had scanned for a while now (waiting for a quite period on the list ;-), and is now available for upload here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-11024-TM-003.pdf (Bitsavers et al, please pick this up and distribute.) So it has an Appendix D, which described the -YA later rev of the CPU card (in which a bunch of gates were replaced with a couple of custom gate arrays. Does anyone have one of these? I'd love to get a photo of one, if so. Thanks! Noel From useddec at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 17:01:19 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 17:01:19 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <20170207224151.C594618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170207224151.C594618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: The M7133 is etch D or earlier. The M7133-YA is rev E or later. I'll put it on my look for list. On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I was recently provided (thanks!) with a copy of the later rev of the > PDP-11/24 Tech Manual (EK-11024-TM-003), which I have had scanned for a > while > now (waiting for a quite period on the list ;-), and is now available for > upload here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-11024-TM-003.pdf > > (Bitsavers et al, please pick this up and distribute.) > > So it has an Appendix D, which described the -YA later rev of the CPU card > (in which a bunch of gates were replaced with a couple of custom gate > arrays. > Does anyone have one of these? I'd love to get a photo of one, if so. > > Thanks! > > Noel > From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Feb 8 03:07:29 2017 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 09:07:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 11/44, parts, 11/24, DZ11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1589927067.320485.1486544849313@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Paul, this is sort of unrelated, but it reminded me of asking you, if you will have time in the next months to watch out for the KT11-D board (M7236) and the RK611 cabling (flat cable BC06R-xx and the transition brack 70-12415 (same as for RL01/02)) ? Thank you very much in advance!All the best,Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de Von: Paul Anderson An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; cctech at vax-11.org Gesendet: 20:40 Samstag, 4.Februar 2017 Betreff: Re: 11/44, parts, 11/24, DZ11 Opps...That should read FP11-F.? Sorry, I changed drugs recently.... On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 11:33 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have at least one 11/44 for sale, at least one 11/24 for sale. I can > configure them as needed within reason.? They can be packed and shipped as > freight carrier of your choice or pickup in IL. or IN. Please contact me > off list. > > Also the following parts: > > M7090 > M7094 > M7095 > M7096 > M7097 > M7098 > > $300/SET (several available) > > 70-15672 backplane? $70 > > M7093? FP11-A? make offer > > M7819 DZ11 board only $50 > > Any quantity boards ship for $10 within US. > > Thanks, Paul > From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Feb 8 03:32:15 2017 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 09:32:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 11/44, parts, 11/24, DZ11 In-Reply-To: <1589927067.320485.1486544849313@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1589927067.320485.1486544849313@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2076915588.357750.1486546335278@mail.yahoo.com> Apologies to the list for the noise,that message was supposed to be sent directly to Paul and not to the list. Best regards,Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de Von: P Gebhardt An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Gesendet: 10:07 Mittwoch, 8.Februar 2017 Betreff: Re: 11/44, parts, 11/24, DZ11 Hello Paul, this is sort of unrelated, but it reminded me of asking you, if you will have time in the next months to watch out for the KT11-D board (M7236) and the RK611 cabling (flat cable BC06R-xx and the transition brack 70-12415 (same as for RL01/02)) ? Thank you very much in advance!All the best,Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de Von: Paul Anderson An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; cctech at vax-11.org Gesendet: 20:40 Samstag, 4.Februar 2017 Betreff: Re: 11/44, parts, 11/24, DZ11 Opps...That should read FP11-F.? Sorry, I changed drugs recently.... On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 11:33 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have at least one 11/44 for sale, at least one 11/24 for sale. I can > configure them as needed within reason.? They can be packed and shipped as > freight carrier of your choice or pickup in IL. or IN. Please contact me > off list. > > Also the following parts: > > M7090 > M7094 > M7095 > M7096 > M7097 > M7098 > > $300/SET (several available) > > 70-15672 backplane? $70 > > M7093? FP11-A? make offer > > M7819 DZ11 board only $50 > > Any quantity boards ship for $10 within US. > > Thanks, Paul > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Feb 8 07:26:55 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 14:26:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unidentified (CDC?) panel Message-ID: Hello, amongst other panels and things (CDC 6600 dead start panel, PDP-15 frontpanel) I got this one: http://up.picr.de/28257957bg.jpg I *guess* it also comes from the CDC 6600 but I'm not sure. Can anyone identify it? Christian From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 07:36:58 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 08:36:58 -0500 Subject: Unidentified (CDC?) panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 8:26 AM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > Hello, > amongst other panels and things (CDC 6600 dead start panel, PDP-15 > frontpanel) I got this one: > http://up.picr.de/28257957bg.jpg > I *guess* it also comes from the CDC 6600 but I'm not sure. Can anyone > identify it? > > Christian > Looks like a peripheral control for a CDC 1700 Bill Degnan From ats at offog.org Wed Feb 8 08:01:59 2017 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2017 14:01:59 +0000 Subject: Unidentified (CDC?) panel In-Reply-To: (Christian Corti's message of "Wed, 8 Feb 2017 14:26:55 +0100 (CET)") References: Message-ID: Christian Corti writes: > http://up.picr.de/28257957bg.jpg > I *guess* it also comes from the CDC 6600 but I'm not sure. Can anyone > identify it? Looks very similar to a CDC 160 -- which the 6000 series peripheral processors were based on, so I guess it's a PP front panel? -- Adam Sampson From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 08:09:32 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 09:09:32 -0500 Subject: Unidentified (CDC?) panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 9:01 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > Christian Corti writes: > > > http://up.picr.de/28257957bg.jpg > > I *guess* it also comes from the CDC 6600 but I'm not sure. Can anyone > > identify it? > > Looks very similar to a CDC 160 -- which the 6000 series peripheral > processors were based on, so I guess it's a PP front panel? > > -- > > I have a 1700 manual or two from the photos in there it's much closer to the 1700 buttons, etc panel dimensions, etc. I could not find a photo of a 160 that was rectangular in the same way, can you? The color of the panel matches the 1700 too. b From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Feb 8 08:09:28 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 09:09:28 -0500 Subject: Unidentified (CDC?) panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24F62C8D-1284-45C2-879A-FA17A27699F6@comcast.net> > On Feb 8, 2017, at 9:01 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > > Christian Corti writes: > >> http://up.picr.de/28257957bg.jpg >> I *guess* it also comes from the CDC 6600 but I'm not sure. Can anyone >> identify it? > > Looks very similar to a CDC 160 -- which the 6000 series peripheral > processors were based on, so I guess it's a PP front panel? There is actually very little similarity between the 160 and the 6000 series PPs. The instruction set is vaguely alike, but that's about it. PPs have NO front panel. Nor does the rest of the system. There's only the deadstart panel (a 12 word boot "rom") and the operator display (a peripheral controlled by one of the PPs). paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 8 11:38:18 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 09:38:18 -0800 Subject: Unidentified (CDC?) panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d1539c0-2754-353a-b233-3798f13570c0@sydex.com> On 02/08/2017 05:26 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > Hello, amongst other panels and things (CDC 6600 dead start panel, > PDP-15 frontpanel) I got this one: http://up.picr.de/28257957bg.jpg I > *guess* it also comes from the CDC 6600 but I'm not sure. Can anyone > identify it? Doesn't look like anything CDC thatI've ever seen. Not 1700, as it's clearly 12-bit words. I would've guessed from the 12-bits + link that it was DEC PDP-8-ish. --Cjicl From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 11:50:02 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 17:50:02 +0000 Subject: Unidentified (CDC?) panel In-Reply-To: <5d1539c0-2754-353a-b233-3798f13570c0@sydex.com> References: <5d1539c0-2754-353a-b233-3798f13570c0@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 02/08/2017 05:26 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >> Hello, amongst other panels and things (CDC 6600 dead start panel, >> PDP-15 frontpanel) I got this one: http://up.picr.de/28257957bg.jpg I >> *guess* it also comes from the CDC 6600 but I'm not sure. Can anyone >> identify it? > > Doesn't look like anything CDC thatI've ever seen. Not 1700, as it's > clearly 12-bit words. I would've guessed from the 12-bits + link that > it was DEC PDP-8-ish. Certainly not PDP8 or a clone thereof. The PDP8 numbers the bits with bit 0 as the MSB -tony From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 12:12:52 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 10:12:52 -0800 Subject: Unidentified (CDC?) panel In-Reply-To: <5d1539c0-2754-353a-b233-3798f13570c0@sydex.com> References: <5d1539c0-2754-353a-b233-3798f13570c0@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 9:38 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 02/08/2017 05:26 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > Hello, amongst other panels and things (CDC 6600 dead start panel, > > PDP-15 frontpanel) I got this one: http://up.picr.de/28257957bg.jpg I > > *guess* it also comes from the CDC 6600 but I'm not sure. Can anyone > > identify it? > > Doesn't look like anything CDC thatI've ever seen. Not 1700, as it's > clearly 12-bit words. I would've guessed from the 12-bits + link that > it was DEC PDP-8-ish. > > --Cjicl > > The switches and the labels look very similar to the ones used on the CDC 160's front panel. And the 160 was a 12-bit machine. Maybe this was some sort of an alternate front panel for a 160? (See: http://s7.computerhistory.org/is/image/CHM/x92.82p-03-04?$re-medium$) - Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 8 12:41:46 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 10:41:46 -0800 Subject: Unidentified (CDC?) panel In-Reply-To: References: <5d1539c0-2754-353a-b233-3798f13570c0@sydex.com> Message-ID: <293b4de2-f7d5-6ac6-6af7-b2f8fe244816@bitsavers.org> On 2/8/17 10:12 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > The switches and the labels look very similar to the ones used on the CDC > 160's front panel. And the 160 was a 12-bit machine. Maybe this was some > sort of an alternate front panel for a 160? > I'm going to guess it is for a 160-G, with 162 tape synchronizer and expanded memory. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Feb 8 13:56:56 2017 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 11:56:56 -0800 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> No. :) I presume you?re working on something related to CADR, LMI Lambda, and TI Explorer emulation. Why not do so in the open? -- Chris > On Feb 5, 2017, at 7:16 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > Everyone point and laugh; I am ten kinds of stupid. > > Would everyone who isn?t Al pretend you did not see the previous email please? :) > >> On Feb 5, 2017, at 9:09 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> >> >>> On Feb 5, 2017, at 2:19 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> >>> pictures and firmware now uploaded to >>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/lmi/ >>> >>> does anyone still have schematics for the Lambda? would be nice to archive a set for the artifacts in CHM's collection. >> >> Not that we are aware of. It would have saved literally a year in our development because we wouldn?t have had to work out the paging and GC bits the hard way. >> >> Do you have any experience dumping the contents of SMD disks? RG has at least two Lambdas in his garage, but conditions are bad and they have been exposed to outside air for who knows how long; it will be another several months before he returns to the east coast. I?m considering a trip out to see if there?s anything salvageable. Hopefully if nothing else the disk contents can be read out. >> >> If you can read/write on your disk, we can give you software to run on your machine(s). It uses 1024-byte sectors. >> > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 8 14:45:23 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2017 20:45:23 +0000 Subject: Odd-looking scope trace on an address line Message-ID: Hi folks, Clear one problem and hit another is just what I expect to happen with this Executel :) After last weekend's little breakthrough my little machine is now hitting a loop that LOOKS like it's waiting for an RST6.5 interrupt*, but at the same time the A9 line is doing this: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelOddTraceA9.jpg (scale doubled for ease of viewing) That doesn't look normal to me, but all 8 chips that touch A9 check out OK and there's nothing odd resistance wise. Before I start chasing my tail again I thought I'd ask first... (*for anyone interested RST6.5 is triggered by the TS1/TS2 status lines from the MR9735 teletext decoder and should be constantly active while video is being output. At one point Tony suggested this chip needs to be initialised and there is indeed a control word that can be passed to it to turn it on and off which makes me wonder if there's another memory bit stuck somewhere) Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 8 15:14:57 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 21:14:57 +0000 Subject: Odd-looking scope trace on an address line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How many vo;ts per division are you using? It doesn't look like an issue but with out some reference I don't know what to say. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:45:23 PM To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Odd-looking scope trace on an address line Hi folks, Clear one problem and hit another is just what I expect to happen with this Executel :) After last weekend's little breakthrough my little machine is now hitting a loop that LOOKS like it's waiting for an RST6.5 interrupt*, but at the same time the A9 line is doing this: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelOddTraceA9.jpg (scale doubled for ease of viewing) That doesn't look normal to me, but all 8 chips that touch A9 check out OK and there's nothing odd resistance wise. Before I start chasing my tail again I thought I'd ask first... (*for anyone interested RST6.5 is triggered by the TS1/TS2 status lines from the MR9735 teletext decoder and should be constantly active while video is being output. At one point Tony suggested this chip needs to be initialised and there is indeed a control word that can be passed to it to turn it on and off which makes me wonder if there's another memory bit stuck somewhere) Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Feb 8 15:31:29 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 22:31:29 +0100 Subject: Odd-looking scope trace on an address line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170208213129.GA79869@beast.freibergnet.de> dwight wrote: > How many vo;ts per division are you using? > > It doesn't look like an issue but with out some reference > > I don't know what to say. > > Dwight Pretty normal. this is nearly perfect high pegel. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Feb 8 15:36:46 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 16:36:46 -0500 Subject: Odd-looking scope trace on an address line In-Reply-To: <20170208213129.GA79869@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20170208213129.GA79869@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: > On Feb 8, 2017, at 4:31 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > dwight wrote: > >> How many vo;ts per division are you using? >> >> It doesn't look like an issue but with out some reference >> >> I don't know what to say. >> >> Dwight > > Pretty normal. > this is nearly perfect high pegel. > > Regards, > > Holm Presumably. But Dwight is right, it isn't clear where zero is on that screen. In fact, any scope trace without X and Y scale descriptions is, by definition, useless. paul From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 8 17:15:01 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2017 23:15:01 +0000 Subject: Odd-looking scope trace on an address line In-Reply-To: <20170208213129.GA79869@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 08/02/2017 21:31, "Holm Tiffe" wrote: > dwight wrote: > >> How many vo;ts per division are you using? >> >> It doesn't look like an issue but with out some reference >> >> I don't know what to say. >> >> Dwight > > Pretty normal. > this is nearly perfect high pegel. Yes, ignore me, user error this time! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From other at oryx.us Wed Feb 8 18:06:13 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 18:06:13 -0600 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e Message-ID: Its literally Christmas for me today. I came into physical position of a well optioned-out SPARCserver 1000e, accompanied by several SPARC Storage Arrays. I'm doing a physical review of the 1000e, i.e. re-seating boards, physical clean up, etc. And reviewing all the appropriate hardware documentation, still available, directly from Oracle. Anyway, on the front of the case is a (4) position power switch (i.e. standby, on, DIAG, lock), that is unfortunately not set to the on position. Hoping that someone out there either has a key that they will part with, or, knows of another (presumably Sun) key that will work in the 1000e key switch. Thanks for looking, Jerry @ 75077 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Feb 8 18:11:48 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 00:11:48 +0000 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Got a picture of it? I found that old PS/2 keys work in PDP-11 and VAX boxes, might work in the SparcServer, too. (I don't remember any of the Sparcs att he Univerisity having keys but they were old and maybe Sun came up with a reason to add one.) bill ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Jerry Kemp [other at oryx.us] Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 7:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e Its literally Christmas for me today. I came into physical position of a well optioned-out SPARCserver 1000e, accompanied by several SPARC Storage Arrays. I'm doing a physical review of the 1000e, i.e. re-seating boards, physical clean up, etc. And reviewing all the appropriate hardware documentation, still available, directly from Oracle. Anyway, on the front of the case is a (4) position power switch (i.e. standby, on, DIAG, lock), that is unfortunately not set to the on position. Hoping that someone out there either has a key that they will part with, or, knows of another (presumably Sun) key that will work in the 1000e key switch. Thanks for looking, Jerry @ 75077 From other at oryx.us Wed Feb 8 18:23:40 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 18:23:40 -0600 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> On 02/ 8/17 06:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > Got a picture of it? No, I do not. I was literally just gifted with this less than 8 hours ago, and I have what I have. I even hit up several search engines and came up null. > > I found that old PS/2 keys work in PDP-11 and VAX boxes, might work in the > SparcServer, too. (I don't remember any of the Sparcs att he Univerisity having > keys but they were old and maybe Sun came up with a reason to add one.) Its the old ones that have the physical keys. The key position stuff is still there in the new stuff, but it is all set via firmware. The SPARCserver 1000/1000e is a 1992 vintage computer. Jerry > > bill > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Jerry Kemp [other at oryx.us] > Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 7:06 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e > > Its literally Christmas for me today. > > I came into physical position of a well optioned-out SPARCserver 1000e, > accompanied by several SPARC Storage Arrays. > > I'm doing a physical review of the 1000e, i.e. re-seating boards, physical clean > up, etc. And reviewing all the appropriate hardware documentation, still > available, directly from Oracle. > > Anyway, on the front of the case is a (4) position power switch (i.e. standby, > on, DIAG, lock), that is unfortunately not set to the on position. > > Hoping that someone out there either has a key that they will part with, or, > knows of another (presumably Sun) key that will work in the 1000e key switch. > > Thanks for looking, > > Jerry @ 75077 > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Feb 8 18:50:30 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 18:50:30 -0600 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> Message-ID: <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> Bill wrote... > Got a picture of it? Jerry Replied.... >No, I do not See http://theor.jinr.ru/~sazonov/guide/sun/ss1000e.png J From other at oryx.us Wed Feb 8 23:44:15 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 23:44:15 -0600 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> Just a little more info. I was informed that the key I need is part #330-1651 . This key was shared by the SS1000, SC2000, StorEdge L1000, StorEdge L140, StorEdge L400, SPARCstorage Library Model 8/400, 8/140, and possibly other hardware of that vintage. Thanks for looking, Jerry On 02/ 8/17 06:50 PM, Jay West wrote: > Bill wrote... >> Got a picture of it? > > Jerry Replied.... >> No, I do not > > See http://theor.jinr.ru/~sazonov/guide/sun/ss1000e.png > > J > From infected at analprolap.se Wed Feb 8 23:57:26 2017 From: infected at analprolap.se (Yvan Janssens) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2017 05:57:26 +0000 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> Message-ID: On a misc side note, you might be able to change it with a set of picks/paper clip. Your mileage may vary though. On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 at 05:44, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Just a little more info. > > I was informed that the key I need is part #330-1651 . > > This key was shared by the SS1000, SC2000, StorEdge L1000, StorEdge L140, > StorEdge L400, SPARCstorage Library Model 8/400, 8/140, and possibly other > hardware of that vintage. > > Thanks for looking, > > Jerry > > > On 02/ 8/17 06:50 PM, Jay West wrote: > > Bill wrote... > >> Got a picture of it? > > > > Jerry Replied.... > >> No, I do not > > > > See http://theor.jinr.ru/~sazonov/guide/sun/ss1000e.png > > > > J > > > From other at oryx.us Thu Feb 9 00:29:17 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 00:29:17 -0600 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> Message-ID: <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> Hello Yvan, Thanks for the reply. I did just go try. No luck though. Given that I now have a P/N for the key, and that it was used across a wide assortment of equipment, right now, I'm feeling pretty confident that one will pop up somewhere. Only time will tell. Worse case, maybe its a legitimate justification to purchase one of those lock pick sets I see on the Internet. :) Jerry On 02/ 8/17 11:57 PM, Yvan Janssens wrote: > On a misc side note, you might be able to change it with a set of > picks/paper clip. > > Your mileage may vary though. > On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 at 05:44, Jerry Kemp wrote: > >> Just a little more info. >> >> I was informed that the key I need is part #330-1651 . >> >> This key was shared by the SS1000, SC2000, StorEdge L1000, StorEdge L140, >> StorEdge L400, SPARCstorage Library Model 8/400, 8/140, and possibly other >> hardware of that vintage. >> >> Thanks for looking, >> >> Jerry >> From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Thu Feb 9 00:55:06 2017 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2017 01:55:06 -0500 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> Message-ID: On 2017-02-09 00:44, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Just a little more info. > > I was informed that the key I need is part #330-1651 . > > This key was shared by the SS1000, SC2000, StorEdge L1000, StorEdge > L140, StorEdge L400, SPARCstorage Library Model 8/400, 8/140, and > possibly other hardware of that vintage. > > Thanks for looking, > > Jerry > > > On 02/ 8/17 06:50 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Bill wrote... >>> Got a picture of it? >> >> Jerry Replied.... >>> No, I do not >> >> See http://theor.jinr.ru/~sazonov/guide/sun/ss1000e.png >> >> J >> If i recall correctly, sun used that same up until the sun4v era. My V890 key works in my E6K for what it's worth. From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Thu Feb 9 00:55:06 2017 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2017 01:55:06 -0500 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> Message-ID: On 2017-02-09 00:44, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Just a little more info. > > I was informed that the key I need is part #330-1651 . > > This key was shared by the SS1000, SC2000, StorEdge L1000, StorEdge > L140, StorEdge L400, SPARCstorage Library Model 8/400, 8/140, and > possibly other hardware of that vintage. > > Thanks for looking, > > Jerry > > > On 02/ 8/17 06:50 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Bill wrote... >>> Got a picture of it? >> >> Jerry Replied.... >>> No, I do not >> >> See http://theor.jinr.ru/~sazonov/guide/sun/ss1000e.png >> >> J >> If i recall correctly, sun used that same up until the sun4v era. My V890 key works in my E6K for what it's worth. From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Feb 9 05:34:23 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 05:34:23 -0600 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Feb 8, 2017, at 1:56 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > > No. :) > > I presume you?re working on something related to CADR, LMI Lambda, and TI Explorer emulation. Why not do so in the open? Presume all you want, but I can?t confirm or deny anything I may or may not be working on. Lawyers are expensive and jail time is no fun. Absent a license from the rightsholder, emulators are illegal. Full stop, end of sentence. Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. It doesn?t matter if the company hasn?t existed since the late 80s - Someone somewhere owns the IP rights and as soon as they see interest in it they?re going to see potential dollar signs. That assumes it?s a normal business and not some patent troll operation that makes a living suing people. In any event, they?ll want compensation for the exploitation of their IP rights, and that means they?re coming after me. In the present legal environment, copyright is effectively immortal and ?damages? are effectively unlimited. I can?t afford a judgement of even a few thousand dollars, let alone the hundreds of thousands / tens of millions that are commonplace today. There?s also federal law prohibiting unauthorized circumvention of technical copy protection measures, and lack of documentation can be construed as a protection measure. This opens the door to criminal charges. As nice as a publicly available emulator would be, I?m not interested in spending years in jail over it or forking over everything I earn for the rest of my life. Or spending the rest of my life dreading that certified letter that might be coming any day now from the law offices of such and such? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Feb 9 07:13:54 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:13:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Absent a license from the rightsholder, emulators are illegal. Full stop, en$ I think this is the first time I've seen this claimed. What is the basis for it? That is, what law would be violated by such a thing? Note that I am not talking about _using_ an emulator to run copyrighted code. If that's what you were talking about, then I misunderstood, and I retract my question. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Feb 9 07:23:22 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 07:23:22 -0600 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > On Feb 9, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Mouse wrote: > > Note that I am not talking about _using_ an emulator to run copyrighted > code. If that's what you were talking about, then I misunderstood, and > I retract my question. Yeah, I should have clarified - Using an emulator to run copyrighted code. I assumed it, since lispm emulation is what?s being discussed and the most likely use of a lispm emulator would be to run the (copyrighted) lispm software. However, doesn?t developing the emulator make you an accessory to the violation? Nobody is going to buy the excuse that my hypothetical lispm emulator has any use other than to infringe on TI/Symbolics/Gigamos/etc?s copyrights. And even if they do, I'd still have to show up in court to defend myself, and lawyers don?t work for free. Even if I could get EFF or someone to defend me, I?d still be burning their money, and I?m sure they have better things to spend it on than me. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Feb 9 07:44:48 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:44:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201702091344.IAA24245@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Note that I am not talking about _using_ an emulator to run >> copyrighted code. If that's what you were talking about, then I >> misunderstood, and I retract my question. > Yeah, I should have clarified - Using an emulator to run copyrighted code. I$ > However, doesn???t developing the emulator make you an accessory to the viol$ That would be jurisdiction-specific, probably to be settled by case law in most jurisdictions. However, there are people (and companies) with legitimate copies of the protected code; an emulator is a useful thing for them (for example, if I had a machine and it broke, I may want to continue running software written for it). I suspect (though it is a non-lawyer's guess) that any such case would hinge on how provable intent-to-infringe was. To pick an analogy, I have been working on a MicroVAX-II emulator. For it to be useful, you need the ROM image from the board. That software is copyrighted - but I own a KA-630 and thus have a legitimate copy of it. (The emulator is nevertheless useful to me, since I lack other hardware to surround the KA-630 with to make a useful system, notably disks.) Consider also MAME. As for a LispM emulator, personally, what I'd like to do (but don't have the resources to do and have other things I'd prefer to put my time into) would be to develop an emulator - with a legitimate copy of the software to test it against - then work on developing an alternative, open, system to run on it. (I've used (Symbolics) Lisp Machines, and, as much as I like them, there are numerous things I would prefer the OS did differently.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ams at gnu.org Thu Feb 9 08:06:53 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2017 09:06:53 -0500 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <201702091344.IAA24245@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> (message from Mouse on Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:44:48 -0500 (EST)) References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201702091344.IAA24245@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: As for a LispM emulator, personally, what I'd like to do (but don't have the resources to do and have other things I'd prefer to put my time into) would be to develop an emulator - with a legitimate copy of the software to test it against - then work on developing an alternative, open, system to run on it. System 46 for the MIT CADR is licensed under a 3-clause BSD license -- start hacking. ;-) You even have an emulator for the MIT CADR. From ams at gnu.org Thu Feb 9 08:06:53 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2017 09:06:53 -0500 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: (message from Daniel Seagraves on Thu, 9 Feb 2017 07:23:22 -0600) References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: However, doesn???t developing the emulator make you an accessory to the violation? Emulators are fully legal to write, maintain and develop in the US and EU. What is illegal is the distribution of copyrighted material. For example, any boot ROM would have to be stripped, software to get the emulator running, etc etc unless a license from the copyright holder has been granted. On the other hand, dumping the ROMS, software, etc from a disk is fully legal under fair use statues if you already have legal access to the original. Nobody is going to buy the excuse that my hypothetical lispm emulator has any use other than to infringe on TI/Symbolics/Gigamos/etc???s copyrights. Legal precedent has already decided that emulators are fully legal with the jurisdictions of the EU and USA. And even if they do, I'd still have to show up in court to defend myself, and lawyers don???t work for free. Even if I could get EFF or someone to defend me, I???d still be burning their money, and I???m sure they have better things to spend it on than me. You are never safe from frivolous lawsuites though. Even if you do something that is fully legal, you might stil get sued. Copyright law is stupid in many regards. From Richard.Sheppard at telus.com Thu Feb 9 10:01:35 2017 From: Richard.Sheppard at telus.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:01:35 +0000 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e Message-ID: <12d5f00e29154ebbb28df51dc94b4938@BTWP000243.corp.ads> Apparently the part number is 330-1651 http://docs.smoe.org/sun/feh/docs/wcd00015/wcd015cd.htm Richard Sheppard From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 9 10:04:43 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:04:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Feb 2017, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > Absent a license from the rightsholder, emulators are illegal. Full > stop, end of sentence. Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not > collect $200. Barring actual evidence to the contrary, I call bullshit. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 9 10:06:48 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:06:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Feb 2017, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > >> On Feb 9, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Mouse wrote: >> >> Note that I am not talking about _using_ an emulator to run copyrighted >> code. If that's what you were talking about, then I misunderstood, and >> I retract my question. > > Yeah, I should have clarified - Using an emulator to run copyrighted > code. I assumed it, since lispm emulation is what?s being discussed and > the most likely use of a lispm emulator would be to run the > (copyrighted) lispm software. If you don't (at least) have the official distribution media, then TECHNICALLY you'd be violating the copyright. Otherwise, it's nonsense. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 10:16:51 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 18:16:51 +0200 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 9 February 2017 at 18:06, geneb wrote: > If you don't (at least) have the official distribution media, then > TECHNICALLY you'd be violating the copyright. Otherwise, it's nonsense. AIUI -- and IANAL -- this is correct, yes. The issue here is not running the software, it's _owning_ the software. This sometimes ties in to ownership of the vendor's hardware it was intended to run on. Apple is slightly different -- the licence for Mac OS X stipulates that you're only allowed to run it on Apple-branded hardware. This is somewhere between rare and unique, though, and it has recently been relaxed slightly to permit use of hypervisors. But otherwise, so long as you own the software or a licence thereto, you can run it on whatever you want, in most cases. If proprietary firmware or drivers are involved, it's harder still, as the only way to get a licence for them is to own one of the original boxes. That's how it's treated in the emulation scene of old home computers anyway -- often licences there were scant. Do you own at least 1 of the original machine? Did you extract its ROMs or whatever from hardware you possess? And you own original media for the program you wish to run? Then you have met the terms of any normal licence and are in full legal compliance, even if the original hardware and media are in a box in the attic and you're using a umpteen-gigahertz 42-core machine with a terabyte of RAM to actually execute the binaries. Did the author reverse-engineer the original hardware in order to emulate it, or use publicly-available docs? Then the emulator is clean and legit, too. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 9 10:21:42 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:21:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Feb 2017, Liam Proven wrote: > Apple is slightly different -- the licence for Mac OS X stipulates > that you're only allowed to run it on Apple-branded hardware. This is > somewhere between rare and unique, though, and it has recently been > relaxed slightly to permit use of hypervisors. > EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and should be used for the same purpose. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ams at gnu.org Thu Feb 9 10:24:55 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2017 11:24:55 -0500 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: (message from geneb on Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:21:42 -0800 (PST)) References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > Apple is slightly different -- the licence for Mac OS X stipulates > that you're only allowed to run it on Apple-branded hardware. This is > somewhere between rare and unique, though, and it has recently been > relaxed slightly to permit use of hypervisors. EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and should be used for the same purpose. Legally, they can and have been enforced. So their value is not nil when it comes to screwing up someone. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Feb 9 10:26:18 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 11:26:18 -0500 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <31A7C5B1-CBB1-4CED-A8B7-2399EC35B68C@comcast.net> > On Feb 9, 2017, at 11:16 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 9 February 2017 at 18:06, geneb wrote: >> If you don't (at least) have the official distribution media, then >> TECHNICALLY you'd be violating the copyright. Otherwise, it's nonsense. > > > AIUI -- and IANAL -- this is correct, yes. Copying without permission of the copyright owner would be a copyright violation. Some licenses permit wide copying (open source). And of course software might be in the public domain (no copyright) -- that's rare but it does happen. > The issue here is not running the software, it's _owning_ the > software. This sometimes ties in to ownership of the vendor's hardware > it was intended to run on. Yes... the question now shifts to the software license rather than the copyright. > Apple is slightly different -- the licence for Mac OS X stipulates > that you're only allowed to run it on Apple-branded hardware. This is > somewhere between rare and unique, though, and it has recently been > relaxed slightly to permit use of hypervisors. Unusual in the personal computer era, yes. > But otherwise, so long as you own the software or a licence thereto, > you can run it on whatever you want, in most cases. Not for pre-PC software. Look at DEC licenses, for example. They are for running the software on DEC systems. Quite often, on specific models. Quite possibly, only on the particular machine you had when you purchased the license. Sometimes (for example, IBM mainframes) the license is for a limited time (a year, perhaps) rather than perpetual. If you sell the hardware, the software license may be tranferable to the new hardware owner, or it may not be. The reality is that licenses can say many different things, and have over the decades. Trying to extrapolate from PC software practice will give you misleading answers because those practices are comparatively recent. The right answer is: read the license. paul From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Feb 9 10:30:10 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 10:30:10 -0600 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <64D54475-21E0-419F-91C8-1CA917060750@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Feb 9, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 9 February 2017 at 18:06, geneb wrote: >> If you don't (at least) have the official distribution media, then >> TECHNICALLY you'd be violating the copyright. Otherwise, it's nonsense. I started answering Gene with this: Even having a clean official distribution doesn?t automatically grant a license to use it, and I certainly wouldn?t be able to distribute it. Speaking of which, I don?t know what the original license terms were - They may not have been transferrable. They may even have had a specific requirement that only authorized machines can use the software, like Apple?s OS X license. But while I was typing that, Liam?s mail came in, so... > AIUI -- and IANAL -- this is correct, yes. > > The issue here is not running the software, it's _owning_ the > software. This sometimes ties in to ownership of the vendor's hardware > it was intended to run on. > > Apple is slightly different -- the licence for Mac OS X stipulates > that you're only allowed to run it on Apple-branded hardware. This is > somewhere between rare and unique, though, and it has recently been > relaxed slightly to permit use of hypervisors. See above - I don?t know what the original license terms were. They may have had a clause like this. > But otherwise, so long as you own the software or a licence thereto, > you can run it on whatever you want, in most cases. And there?s the rub, because... > Do you own at least 1 of the original machine? Nope. I?ve never even SEEN the machine in real life. > Did the author reverse-engineer the original hardware in order to > emulate it, or use publicly-available docs? Then the emulator is clean > and legit, too. Can?t even say this. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 10:33:23 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 18:33:23 +0200 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <64D54475-21E0-419F-91C8-1CA917060750@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <64D54475-21E0-419F-91C8-1CA917060750@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On 9 February 2017 at 18:30, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> But otherwise, so long as you own the software or a licence thereto, >> you can run it on whatever you want, in most cases. > > And there?s the rub, because... > >> Do you own at least 1 of the original machine? > > Nope. I?ve never even SEEN the machine in real life. Ah, now, yes, then there we have a problem. :-) OK, so, if the community can have a collective search down behind the sofa cushions and provide you with original kit and software -- would you want that? Would it help? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Feb 9 10:34:33 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 09:34:33 -0700 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <31A7C5B1-CBB1-4CED-A8B7-2399EC35B68C@comcast.net> References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <31A7C5B1-CBB1-4CED-A8B7-2399EC35B68C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Feb 9, 2017, at 11:16 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 9 February 2017 at 18:06, geneb wrote: >>> If you don't (at least) have the official distribution media, then >>> TECHNICALLY you'd be violating the copyright. Otherwise, it's nonsense. >> >> >> AIUI -- and IANAL -- this is correct, yes. > > Copying without permission of the copyright owner would be a copyright violation. Some licenses permit wide copying (open source). And of course software might be in the public domain (no copyright) -- that's rare but it does happen. Copying that's not covered by fair use or other permissible acts without the permission is a copyright violation. Copyright owners may bar that copying in their license, but that doesn't make those acts unlawful. There's nothing in copyright law about original media being your savior. You are permitted to make copies for backup purposes, and to use those copies if the original copy becomes corrupt, for example. But this statement isn't absolute for newer copyrighted material that's copy protected, which has its own set of bizarre rules. The license to copy (and therefore use) is not tied to any particular thing in the law, so there are many cases that determine what the rules are in the absence of an explicit license, as well as what terms in a license may or may not be enforceable. Speaking in absolutes in the IP field is often unwise. Warner From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Feb 9 10:37:33 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 10:37:33 -0600 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <64D54475-21E0-419F-91C8-1CA917060750@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: > On Feb 9, 2017, at 10:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > Ah, now, yes, then there we have a problem. :-) I wish I had the opposite problem. This whole hypothetical emulation from hypothetical zilch business is a hypothetical pain in the hypothetical ass. > OK, so, if the community can have a collective search down behind the > sofa cushions and provide you with original kit and software -- would > you want that? Would it help? Well, unless I?m missing something, that might make MY use of it legal but it wouldn?t help anyone else. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 10:45:22 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 18:45:22 +0200 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <64D54475-21E0-419F-91C8-1CA917060750@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On 9 February 2017 at 18:37, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > I wish I had the opposite problem. This whole hypothetical emulation from hypothetical zilch business is a hypothetical pain in the hypothetical ass. AIUI they are rather complex machines, yes. > Well, unless I?m missing something, that might make MY use of it legal but it wouldn?t help anyone else. True. But these are the terms that most retro emulators are distributed on: "Here's the code. To use it, you'll need ROM images and images of software. These are not provided and won't be, so don't ask. Get your own and it is your problem to ensure that you are legal." Hypothetically I might have and run an assortment of so-called "abandonware" from multiple places around the Internet and of this hypothetical software, very little of it has actual legal dispensation for distribution. Before it went mad, Caldera and its subsidiary Lineo was good about GPLing source and publishing it. So real official CP/M, GEM and DR-DOS 7.01 are now GPL FOSS, among many other things. Quarterdeck owners Symantec say they don't have source for most of QD's DOS-era stuff and since it doesn't sell it it doesn't care, but this doesn't cover anything with modern successor versions -- e.g. Norton products. I have a VM with actual IBM PC-DOS in it, downloaded for free from IBM's website, and MS Word 5.5 for DOS, downloaded from MS' website. I asked for permission to redistribute the VM and as I expected, IBM's response was "we have PC DOS for free download? What? Where?!" -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 9 10:50:36 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:50:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Feb 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > > Apple is slightly different -- the licence for Mac OS X stipulates > > that you're only allowed to run it on Apple-branded hardware. This is > > somewhere between rare and unique, though, and it has recently been > > relaxed slightly to permit use of hypervisors. > > EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and should be used for the same > purpose. > > Legally, they can and have been enforced. So their value is not nil > when it comes to screwing up someone. > I'd love to see more info on when one was successfully enforced on an end-user. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Feb 9 10:52:56 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 10:52:56 -0600 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <64D54475-21E0-419F-91C8-1CA917060750@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: > On Feb 9, 2017, at 10:45 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 9 February 2017 at 18:37, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> I wish I had the opposite problem. This whole hypothetical emulation from hypothetical zilch business is a hypothetical pain in the hypothetical ass. > > AIUI they are rather complex machines, yes. > >> Well, unless I?m missing something, that might make MY use of it legal but it wouldn?t help anyone else. > > True. But these are the terms that most retro emulators are distributed on: > > "Here's the code. To use it, you'll need ROM images and images of > software. These are not provided and won't be, so don't ask. Get your > own and it is your problem to ensure that you are legal.? Yeah, that?s how Meroko was distributed. Someone else had already posted binaries of TI?s stuff though, and I had worked from those. > I have a VM with actual IBM PC-DOS in it, downloaded for free from > IBM's website, and MS Word 5.5 for DOS, downloaded from MS' website. > > I asked for permission to redistribute the VM and as I expected, IBM's > response was "we have PC DOS for free download? What? Where?!? Did you tell them? Did they take it down? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 9 11:12:55 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 09:12:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <31A7C5B1-CBB1-4CED-A8B7-2399EC35B68C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Feb 2017, Warner Losh wrote: > Speaking in absolutes in the IP field is often unwise. Only: "Don't mess with the mouse." In addition to occasional changes in the laws and in their interpretation, there is always the issue, as mentioned in one of the early posts, that annoying the dragon can get you singed, disunirregardless of whether you can cite precedent. The cost of even a successful battle in a lawsuit can be ruinous. What did Carterphone have left after SCROTUS? (cf. Pyrrhic victory) From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Feb 9 11:34:39 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 11:34:39 -0600 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <64D54475-21E0-419F-91C8-1CA917060750@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: > On Feb 9, 2017, at 10:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > OK, so, if the community can have a collective search down behind the > sofa cushions and provide you with original kit and software -- would > you want that? Would it help? Oh, I meant to include that if someone did happen across a Lambda Lisp distribution tape, that would be extremely helpful. (The ones on Bitsavers are Unix, not Lisp) And if you have a Lambda that you are willing to part with, that would certainly help too. Or even just the console - CHM has two machines but no console. If someone somewhere could assemble a working machine that would make the work go lots faster. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Feb 9 11:38:04 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 12:38:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: LMI Lambda? Message-ID: <20170209173804.BF04018C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Alfred M. Szmidt > System 46 for the MIT CADR is licensed under a 3-clause BSD license -- > start hacking. ;-) You even have an emulator for the MIT CADR. Everyone seems to have blown right past this, but it might be important. Does anyone know if the Lambda matches the CADR? Or did they make changes ('improvements')? I always had the impression that it was basically a CADR clone. A CADR emulator, running the MIT code, would certainly be OK. Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 9 11:38:29 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 09:38:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <64D54475-21E0-419F-91C8-1CA917060750@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Feb 2017, Liam Proven wrote: > "Here's the code. To use it, you'll need ROM images and images of > software. These are not provided and won't be, so don't ask. Get your > own and it is your problem to ensure that you are legal." Is there a QUALITATIVE difference between FREE distribution and SOLD? "You need to buy and own a copy of the original" was the premise when Apparat sold APR-DOS (a copy of TRS-DOS with an amazingly large number of bug-fix patches). It was later called NEWDOS. When that wasn't working in the lawsuit, Apparat tried an approach of claiming that it was so rewritten that there was nothing left of the original code. THAT fell apart when it was demonstrated that they had missed a hidden full-screen copyright message of RANDY COOK. (Radio Shack changed that to TANDY CORP in subsequent releases of TRS-DOS) That was before "look and feel" (Lotus V Paperback), and was in a time when "clean room" direct imitations were considered legit, if they had no copied internal code. The result was merciful - Apparat was permitted to simply rewrite and come up with a non-infringing OS! (NEWDOS-80) "Look and feel" banned clean code that had the same user inteface appearance, which seriously jeopardizes legal standing of any emulators. The courts didn't even go for Delrina's "PARODY!" defense of Opus And Bill shooting flying toasters, and Delrina's legal research people FAILED to come up with a copy of "Thirty Seconds Over Winterland", which could have given a "prior art" defense. When Apple came down on GEM, did Xerox get mentioned? If "all property is theft" ("we stole it from the Indians FIRST"), then what is "Intellectual Property"? From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Feb 9 11:40:33 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 11:40:33 -0600 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <20170209173804.BF04018C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170209173804.BF04018C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <83D841CE-D48E-4BE3-AC3A-3F50A171E5F5@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Feb 9, 2017, at 11:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Alfred M. Szmidt > >> System 46 for the MIT CADR is licensed under a 3-clause BSD license -- >> start hacking. ;-) You even have an emulator for the MIT CADR. > > Everyone seems to have blown right past this, but it might be important. > > Does anyone know if the Lambda matches the CADR? Or did they make changes > ('improvements')? I always had the impression that it was basically a CADR > clone. > > A CADR emulator, running the MIT code, would certainly be OK. It?s not an exact clone - The microcode is different, and they added a lot to the system after they got it. It?s between the CADR and TI/Symbolics. The first Lambda release was equivalent to CADR System 99, and they branched off from there. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Feb 9 14:02:01 2017 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 12:02:01 -0800 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <16160673-258A-41E9-AD52-CAB9EB74F3DD@eschatologist.net> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:34 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Absent a license from the rightsholder, emulators are illegal. Full stop, end of sentence. Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. As others have pointed out, this is not the case. Remember that Sony purchased the rights to the Virtual Game Station emulator from Connectix because they lost in court. A reference to the case is on the wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connectix_Virtual_Game_Station > It doesn?t matter if the company hasn?t existed since the late 80s - Someone somewhere owns the IP rights and as soon as they see interest in it they?re going to see potential dollar signs. As near as I?ve been able to find, without hiring lawyers to do more in-depth research, the assets of the former Lisp Machine, Inc. were seized as part of the GigaText affair; do a Google search for GigaText Guy Montpetit for some details. The IP in this case is likely owned by either the government of Canada, Saskatchewan, the United States, or Massachusetts, depending on who did the actual seizing, what entity owned the IP at the time, and whether the seized assets were ever transferred as a result of the case(s). Do you have any pointers to the situation being different? -- Chris From Mark at Misty.com Thu Feb 9 14:06:01 2017 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 15:06:01 -0500 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> Message-ID: <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 12:29:17AM -0600, Jerry Kemp wrote: > ... > >>I was informed that the key I need is part #330-1651 . > >> > >>This key was shared by the SS1000, SC2000, StorEdge L1000, StorEdge L140, > >>StorEdge L400, SPARCstorage Library Model 8/400, 8/140, and possibly other > >>hardware of that vintage. > Thanks for the reply. I did just go try. No luck though. > > Given that I now have a P/N for the key, and that it was used across > a wide assortment of equipment, right now, I'm feeling pretty > confident that one will pop up somewhere. > > Only time will tell. I believe I have the correct key. Although I no longer have my 1000e, I still have a storage box which uses this key, so I'm not ready to part with it yet. I'm 95% sure this key fit my 1000e, but it has been a few years. http://files.markgthomas.com/dl/sunkey/ I thought maybe having a picture would help in finding the correct key. > Worse case, maybe its a legitimate justification to purchase one of > those lock pick sets I see on the Internet. :) I also remember successfully turning the keyswitch on my 1000e using a small screwdriver and a paperclip. There is a knack to getting the pins to stick in the right places while applying just slight turning pressure with the screwdriver. You may be able to unlock the keyswitch if you read about pin tumbler locks, no official "picks" necessary. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Feb 9 14:16:51 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 20:16:51 +0000 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us>, <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: Or, you could just open up the box and replace the switch with one that doesn't require a key. bill ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Mark G Thomas [Mark at Misty.com] Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 3:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Jerry Kemp Subject: Re: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e Hi, On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 12:29:17AM -0600, Jerry Kemp wrote: > ... > >>I was informed that the key I need is part #330-1651 . > >> > >>This key was shared by the SS1000, SC2000, StorEdge L1000, StorEdge L140, > >>StorEdge L400, SPARCstorage Library Model 8/400, 8/140, and possibly other > >>hardware of that vintage. > Thanks for the reply. I did just go try. No luck though. > > Given that I now have a P/N for the key, and that it was used across > a wide assortment of equipment, right now, I'm feeling pretty > confident that one will pop up somewhere. > > Only time will tell. I believe I have the correct key. Although I no longer have my 1000e, I still have a storage box which uses this key, so I'm not ready to part with it yet. I'm 95% sure this key fit my 1000e, but it has been a few years. http://files.markgthomas.com/dl/sunkey/ I thought maybe having a picture would help in finding the correct key. > Worse case, maybe its a legitimate justification to purchase one of > those lock pick sets I see on the Internet. :) I also remember successfully turning the keyswitch on my 1000e using a small screwdriver and a paperclip. There is a knack to getting the pins to stick in the right places while applying just slight turning pressure with the screwdriver. You may be able to unlock the keyswitch if you read about pin tumbler locks, no official "picks" necessary. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Feb 9 16:10:50 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 14:10:50 -0800 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> Message-ID: <52d2c44c-6762-5d97-2952-adc9cb3ffde1@jwsss.com> This page was a hit from the PN below, and looks like an interesting reference to save away. http://www.shrubbery.net/~heas/sun-feh-2_1/Devices/AC_Power/ACPOWER_Keys.html thanks Jim On 2/8/2017 9:44 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Just a little more info. > > I was informed that the key I need is part #330-1651 . > > This key was shared by the SS1000, SC2000, StorEdge L1000, StorEdge > L140, StorEdge L400, SPARCstorage Library Model 8/400, 8/140, and > possibly other hardware of that vintage. > > Thanks for looking, > > Jerry > > > On 02/ 8/17 06:50 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Bill wrote... >>> Got a picture of it? >> >> Jerry Replied.... >>> No, I do not >> >> See http://theor.jinr.ru/~sazonov/guide/sun/ss1000e.png >> >> J >> > > From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Feb 9 16:46:25 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:46:25 -0600 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <16160673-258A-41E9-AD52-CAB9EB74F3DD@eschatologist.net> References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <16160673-258A-41E9-AD52-CAB9EB74F3DD@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <9D194271-760A-47DD-A0EE-DAC835B2C852@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Feb 9, 2017, at 2:02 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > >> It doesn?t matter if the company hasn?t existed since the late 80s - Someone somewhere owns the IP rights and as soon as they see interest in it they?re going to see potential dollar signs. > > As near as I?ve been able to find, without hiring lawyers to do more in-depth research, the assets of the former Lisp Machine, Inc. were seized as part of the GigaText affair; do a Google search for GigaText Guy Montpetit for some details. The IP in this case is likely owned by either the government of Canada, Saskatchewan, the United States, or Massachusetts, depending on who did the actual seizing, what entity owned the IP at the time, and whether the seized assets were ever transferred as a result of the case(s). > > Do you have any pointers to the situation being different? The information I got was that GigaMOS held the assets until it was put into receivership, and Coopers & Lybrand were appointed receiver. They did not find a buyer. Much of the physical assets were surrendered to former employees and other debtors in lieu of payment, since GigaMOS was unable to make payroll. Coopers & Lybrand were merged into PwC a couple years later. What PwC did with things in the meantime is unknown. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 9 18:58:50 2017 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:58:50 -0800 Subject: A bunch of vintage items available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just passing this on. Please contact Dan directly at: Daniel de Long He's located in Sacramento, CA and in the past was willing to ship. Bob Equipment available: 1 IBM 552 Interpreter 1 IBM 557 Interpreter with manuals 1 MIA 557 Interpreter (IBM) with manuals 3 IBM 3178 with control and key board, $125 1 IBM 3274-90 1 IBM 2821 Controller 2 IBM 3278-2 with keyboard , $250 2 IBM 3287-2 Printer 1 IBM 8513 Color Display 1 IBM 9518-001 Display 1 OTC 850 printer 1 Telex 287 Printer (IBM 3287 type) 2 Telex 8020 Model 266 Tape Drive 9 track 1600/6250 BPI with Controller, manuals 1 Telex 8020 tape drive (new freight damage-fell off lift gate) 1 Memorex 4303 line printer speed between 1200-1500 lines per minute 3 Control Data 9 track tape (Keystone) drives and PC controller card & cable, $150 each 1 Control Data 9 track tape drive without controller. 1 Sun Microsystems 9 track drive (Keystone) 2 Cipher 9 track tape drive, $250 each 1 Memorex 3693 Controller with Drive 3 Memorex 3690 Drive (IBM 3370) 2 Fujitsu M2485 (IBM 3480 type) tape drive 18 Track 1 Fujitsu M2485N CA01011-B063 36 Track with auto loader 1 Fujitsu 128 Track tape drive Thanks Dan -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 9 19:03:20 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 17:03:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <16160673-258A-41E9-AD52-CAB9EB74F3DD@eschatologist.net> from Chris Hanson at "Feb 9, 17 12:02:01 pm" Message-ID: <201702100103.v1A13K3T8257756@floodgap.com> > Remember that Sony purchased the rights to the Virtual Game Station > emulator from Connectix because they lost in court. It's a really cool emulator, too. Works well. *pats G4* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Kind of dangerous, but what fun is a safe shredder? -- Mike McFadden ------- From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Feb 9 19:39:53 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 20:39:53 -0500 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers Message-ID: <757FEED9-CCE2-4021-BB71-2684361D558E@comcast.net> Gents, I'm looking at a set of RSTS V7 magtape images (a release kit) which have an odd format that gives SIMH fits. In the container formats I'm used to, each tape block image is preceded and followed by the data length as a 4-byte value. In SIMH that's rounded up to even, in E11 format it's not, but apart from that this is how things work. The V7 tape images don't match that format. It looks like each block contains not just the data but also 2 more bytes, and the data length value represents that extra 2 bytes. So the tape label is 16 bytes, not 14, and the data blocks are 514 bytes, not 512. Does this ring any bells? Where do those extra bytes come from? Can SIMH be told to deal with this or does it require a repair program to fix the format? paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 9 20:14:55 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 18:14:55 -0800 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <757FEED9-CCE2-4021-BB71-2684361D558E@comcast.net> References: <757FEED9-CCE2-4021-BB71-2684361D558E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <516B5E27-7197-4C0F-BC07-60DD7585224A@aracnet.com> > On Feb 9, 2017, at 5:39 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Gents, > > I'm looking at a set of RSTS V7 magtape images (a release kit) which have an odd format that gives SIMH fits. > > In the container formats I'm used to, each tape block image is preceded and followed by the data length as a 4-byte value. In SIMH that's rounded up to even, in E11 format it's not, but apart from that this is how things work. > > The V7 tape images don't match that format. It looks like each block contains not just the data but also 2 more bytes, and the data length value represents that extra 2 bytes. So the tape label is 16 bytes, not 14, and the data blocks are 514 bytes, not 512. > > Does this ring any bells? Where do those extra bytes come from? Can SIMH be told to deal with this or does it require a repair program to fix the format? > > paul > What is the file extension? TPC or TAP? I forget which SIMH uses, but there used to be a converter available to go from the format that many of the tape images are in, to the one SIMH uses. Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 23:31:44 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 21:31:44 -0800 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <516B5E27-7197-4C0F-BC07-60DD7585224A@aracnet.com> References: <757FEED9-CCE2-4021-BB71-2684361D558E@comcast.net> <516B5E27-7197-4C0F-BC07-60DD7585224A@aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > What is the file extension? TPC or TAP? I forget which SIMH uses, but there used to be a converter available to go from the format that many of the tape images are in, to the one SIMH uses. > > Zane SIMH does at least SIMH, E11, and TPC format tapes. For simulated magnetic tapes, the ATTACH command can specify the format of the attached tape image file: ATTACH -f The currently supported tape image file formats are: SIMH SIMH simulator format E11 E11 simulator format TPC TPC format P7B Pierce simulator 7-track format From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Feb 9 12:00:30 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 10:00:30 -0800 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <12d5f00e29154ebbb28df51dc94b4938@BTWP000243.corp.ads> References: <12d5f00e29154ebbb28df51dc94b4938@BTWP000243.corp.ads> Message-ID: FInd someone with a key Get both sides scanned, print with a grid of 1/10th inch, or use measurement software, etc Take to a real lock smith, not Home Despot, or some store where cutting keys is a side profit. 99.9% of the time s/he will say oh that's a Make, type, etc and from the picture he can look up the cuts and make you a key. My now retired lock smith friend had only once use a book to find the make and type key. Once I didn't have anything other then the lock with no markings, within 10 minutes he found the correct blank and then figured out the pin lengths with a pick and made me a key. total time was about 20 minutes. For that one I gave him an extra $20 ! -pete On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Richard Sheppard wrote: > Apparently the part number is 330-1651 > > http://docs.smoe.org/sun/feh/docs/wcd00015/wcd015cd.htm > > Richard Sheppard > > From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 17:41:26 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 15:41:26 -0800 Subject: More of the collection for sale: Franklin ACE 100, LNW-80, Commodore PET 8032 Message-ID: I am presenting two more items from my collection to sell: Franklin ACE 100 (Apple ][ clone) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56187-Franklin-ACE-100 LNW Research LNW-80 (TRS-80 clone) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56189-LNW-Research-LNW-80-w-System-Expansion-II-(TRS-80-Clone)&p=447068#post447068 I also have this nice Commodore PET 8032 (like new in box): http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55679-Commodore-PET-8032-Brand-New-in-Original-Box-w-manuals-and-accessories&highlight=commodore+8032 Although you can contact me on the VCForums, I would much prefer you contact me directly through e-mail if you're interested in any of these fine systems. Thanks! Sellam From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 18:06:53 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:06:53 -0800 Subject: SWTPC 6800 for sale Message-ID: I have a very nice SWTPC 6800 for sale. Please see the ad on the VCF forums for complete information. If you have inquiries, please do send them directly to me via e-mail. Thanks! Sellam From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 18:24:39 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:24:39 -0800 Subject: FOR SALE: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: I have a nice SWTPC 6800 with a color video board and custom sound board for sale. The ad is on the VCF forums: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56190-SouthWest-Technical-Products-Corporation-(SWTPC)-6800&p=447078#post447078 Please inquire directly to me via e-mail if you have any questions. Thanks! Sellam From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Feb 10 00:45:30 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 07:45:30 +0100 Subject: More of the collection for sale: Franklin ACE 100, LNW-80, Commodore PET 8032 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170210064529.GR4154@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 03:41:26PM -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Although you can contact me on the VCForums, I would much prefer you > contact me directly through e-mail if you're interested in any of these > fine systems. > Hi Sellam I sent you mail a few days back with an offer for the DECUS music papertapes. Did that get through? Regards, Pontus From brain at jbrain.com Fri Feb 10 02:11:27 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 02:11:27 -0600 Subject: 16MB memory module for a PC110 Message-ID: I know it's a "newer" PC compatible machine, but I was wondering if anyone had a 20MB PC110 Palmtop and could tell me (or send me pics) of the 16MB RAM upgrade. I have a non working unit here I can liberate the 4MB module from, and I believe I can replace the RAM ICs with larger ones. The DRAMs on the board are HM51W16160ATT7, which are 70nS FP DRAM 1Mbx16 I assume there are similar 4Mbx16 DRAMs I could solder in (A0-A11 Row/Col) Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From ams at gnu.org Fri Feb 10 02:44:29 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 03:44:29 -0500 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: (message from geneb on Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:50:36 -0800 (PST)) References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > > Apple is slightly different -- the licence for Mac OS X stipulates > > that you're only allowed to run it on Apple-branded hardware. This is > > somewhere between rare and unique, though, and it has recently been > > relaxed slightly to permit use of hypervisors. > > EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and should be used for the same > purpose. > > Legally, they can and have been enforced. So their value is not nil > when it comes to screwing up someone. I'd love to see more info on when one was successfully enforced on an end-user. Wikipedia is a good start. ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg Microsoft v. Harmony Computers Novell v. Network Trade Center Ariz. Cartridge Remanufacturers Ass'n v. Lexmark Int'l, Inc. From ams at gnu.org Fri Feb 10 02:47:59 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 03:47:59 -0500 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: <9D194271-760A-47DD-A0EE-DAC835B2C852@lunar-tokyo.net> (message from Daniel Seagraves on Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:46:25 -0600) References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <16160673-258A-41E9-AD52-CAB9EB74F3DD@eschatologist.net> <9D194271-760A-47DD-A0EE-DAC835B2C852@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: I think also that whatever your decision is, that people should simply respect that. Better be safe than sorry after all. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 10 08:00:46 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 09:00:46 -0500 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <516B5E27-7197-4C0F-BC07-60DD7585224A@aracnet.com> References: <757FEED9-CCE2-4021-BB71-2684361D558E@comcast.net> <516B5E27-7197-4C0F-BC07-60DD7585224A@aracnet.com> Message-ID: > On Feb 9, 2017, at 9:14 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > >> On Feb 9, 2017, at 5:39 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> Gents, >> >> I'm looking at a set of RSTS V7 magtape images (a release kit) which have an odd format that gives SIMH fits. >> >> In the container formats I'm used to, each tape block image is preceded and followed by the data length as a 4-byte value. In SIMH that's rounded up to even, in E11 format it's not, but apart from that this is how things work. >> >> The V7 tape images don't match that format. It looks like each block contains not just the data but also 2 more bytes, and the data length value represents that extra 2 bytes. So the tape label is 16 bytes, not 14, and the data blocks are 514 bytes, not 512. >> >> Does this ring any bells? Where do those extra bytes come from? Can SIMH be told to deal with this or does it require a repair program to fix the format? >> >> paul >> > > What is the file extension? TPC or TAP? I forget which SIMH uses, but there used to be a converter available to go from the format that many of the tape images are in, to the one SIMH uses. > > Zane On bitsavers they are .TAP files. What is TPC format? paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 10 08:46:36 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 09:46:36 -0500 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <516B5E27-7197-4C0F-BC07-60DD7585224A@aracnet.com> References: <757FEED9-CCE2-4021-BB71-2684361D558E@comcast.net> <516B5E27-7197-4C0F-BC07-60DD7585224A@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <9B327912-A131-4429-977C-B25CD1037EA0@comcast.net> > On Feb 9, 2017, at 9:14 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > >> On Feb 9, 2017, at 5:39 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> Gents, >> >> I'm looking at a set of RSTS V7 magtape images (a release kit) which have an odd format that gives SIMH fits. >> >> In the container formats I'm used to, each tape block image is preceded and followed by the data length as a 4-byte value. In SIMH that's rounded up to even, in E11 format it's not, but apart from that this is how things work. >> >> The V7 tape images don't match that format. It looks like each block contains not just the data but also 2 more bytes, and the data length value represents that extra 2 bytes. So the tape label is 16 bytes, not 14, and the data blocks are 514 bytes, not 512. >> >> Does this ring any bells? Where do those extra bytes come from? Can SIMH be told to deal with this or does it require a repair program to fix the format? >> >> paul >> > > What is the file extension? TPC or TAP? I forget which SIMH uses, but there used to be a converter available to go from the format that many of the tape images are in, to the one SIMH uses. > > Zane From what I read about TPC, those tape images aren't TPC format -- which is described as having a 2 byte block length field. What I see is 4 byte block lengths but 2 extraneous "data" bytes. It's almost like the tape capture machinery picked up the LPC and CRC bytes from the tape block and stored those too, not just the data. paul From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Feb 10 09:07:43 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 07:07:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Feb 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > > > Apple is slightly different -- the licence for Mac OS X stipulates > > > that you're only allowed to run it on Apple-branded hardware. This is > > > somewhere between rare and unique, though, and it has recently been > > > relaxed slightly to permit use of hypervisors. > > > > EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and should be used for the same > > purpose. > > > > Legally, they can and have been enforced. So their value is not nil > > when it comes to screwing up someone. > > I'd love to see more info on when one was successfully enforced on an > end-user. > > Wikipedia is a good start. > > ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg Interesting read, thanks. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Fri Feb 10 11:37:13 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 18:37:13 +0100 Subject: 16MB memory module for a PC110 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 February 2017 at 09:11, Jim Brain wrote: > I know it's a "newer" PC compatible machine, but I was wondering if anyone > had a 20MB PC110 Palmtop That's very cute. :?) I am surprised but AFAIK I've never heard of them before. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 10 11:54:34 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 09:54:34 -0800 Subject: Wanted: AT&T 3B2 systems & software In-Reply-To: <20160206004027.GA17992@loomcom.com> References: <20160206004027.GA17992@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <1918a34b-775a-0e24-39fc-712461254573@bitsavers.org> On 2/5/16 4:40 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > I'm also still looking for more documentation. I especially wish I had > schematics, and any docs related to writing drivers. Anything that > would be useful in documenting the 3B2 internals would be lovely. > I picked up a couple of 3B2 drives on eBay, and sent the data to David so that he could add support to the MFM emulator, which he took care of yesterday. The code is in the working branch of the firmware. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 10 12:06:31 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 12:06:31 -0600 Subject: Wanted: AT&T 3B2 systems & software In-Reply-To: <1918a34b-775a-0e24-39fc-712461254573@bitsavers.org> References: <20160206004027.GA17992@loomcom.com> <1918a34b-775a-0e24-39fc-712461254573@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000e01d283c8$68b92e30$3a2b8a90$@classiccmp.org> Years ago I picked up a pallet of 3b2's, there was probably four or five systems on that pallet. They were all given to a collector who isn't particularly active on this list. I can ask him if he still has them if this helps? J From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 10 12:40:55 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 10:40:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <16160673-258A-41E9-AD52-CAB9EB74F3DD@eschatologist.net> <9D194271-760A-47DD-A0EE-DAC835B2C852@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Feb 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > I think also that whatever your decision is, that people should simply > respect that. Better be safe than sorry after all. Absolutely! Whether or not WE think that there is a danger is not the point. And, whether we think that the LAW would rule favorably is irrelevsant (cf. Carterphone's Pyrrhic victory in SCROTUS) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 10 12:51:12 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 10:51:12 -0800 Subject: Wanted: AT&T 3B2 systems & software In-Reply-To: <000e01d283c8$68b92e30$3a2b8a90$@classiccmp.org> References: <20160206004027.GA17992@loomcom.com> <1918a34b-775a-0e24-39fc-712461254573@bitsavers.org> <000e01d283c8$68b92e30$3a2b8a90$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: That might be good afa trying to find software. I bought a 3B2 SVr3 Source Code Provision kit off eBay last year which turned out to be missing the actual source tape :-( It had the floppies and docs but no cartridge tape. On 2/10/17 10:06 AM, Jay West wrote: > Years ago I picked up a pallet of 3b2's, there was probably four or five > systems on that pallet. > > They were all given to a collector who isn't particularly active on this > list. I can ask him if he still has them if this helps? > > J > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 10 13:26:43 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 11:26:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: >> I'd love to see more info on when one was successfully enforced on an >> end-user. On Fri, 10 Feb 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > Wikipedia is a good start. > ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg On Fri, 10 Feb 2017, geneb wrote: > Interesting read, thanks. That case upheld the click-through/shrinkwrap adhesion contracts. But, none of the ones listed were an "end-user". Zeidenberg bought a single-user (NOT the commercial user) version of a CD, and made a website selling access to the data. The data in question (phone numbers) was not copyrighted nor copyrightable. The case was about violation of EULA. He had clicked the "I Accept". I assume that the shutdown of Slysoft (ANYDVD) was facilitated by DMCA. I do not expect Hollywood to come after a user for copying a few DVDs to computer drive. They would, instead, go after the suppliers of the tools for doing so, or those with very deep pockets, or unless they were desperate to "make an example", to scare end-users with POSSSIBLE consequences. The cost of a lawsuit is substantial. But, I would hate to rely on being "potentially technically withing the law" nor "not worth the effort" as sole defense. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 10 14:43:29 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 15:43:29 -0500 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <757FEED9-CCE2-4021-BB71-2684361D558E@comcast.net> References: <757FEED9-CCE2-4021-BB71-2684361D558E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8BC0F7B4-3A93-4926-A4D4-A70262F39258@comcast.net> > On Feb 9, 2017, at 8:39 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Gents, > > I'm looking at a set of RSTS V7 magtape images (a release kit) which have an odd format that gives SIMH fits. > > In the container formats I'm used to, each tape block image is preceded and followed by the data length as a 4-byte value. In SIMH that's rounded up to even, in E11 format it's not, but apart from that this is how things work. > > The V7 tape images don't match that format. It looks like each block contains not just the data but also 2 more bytes, and the data length value represents that extra 2 bytes. So the tape label is 16 bytes, not 14, and the data blocks are 514 bytes, not 512. > > Does this ring any bells? Where do those extra bytes come from? Can SIMH be told to deal with this or does it require a repair program to fix the format? I wrote a simple program to strip off those two bytes everywhere, and the result was a set of V7 kit tapes that work nicely. Trying to remember how to do a V7 installation with no docs was interesting... paul From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 10 15:11:24 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 13:11:24 -0800 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <8BC0F7B4-3A93-4926-A4D4-A70262F39258@comcast.net> References: <757FEED9-CCE2-4021-BB71-2684361D558E@comcast.net> <8BC0F7B4-3A93-4926-A4D4-A70262F39258@comcast.net> Message-ID: <47af047b-31d3-5d1e-c412-3b78473a7d03@bitsavers.org> On 2/10/17 12:43 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Trying to remember how to do a V7 installation with no docs was interesting... AA-2669E-TC is on bitsavers From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Feb 10 15:51:55 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 16:51:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers Message-ID: <20170210215155.7A3F318C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > I wrote a simple program to strip off those two bytes everywhere, and > the result was a set of V7 kit tapes that work nicely. Any chance you could provide those 'ready to run' tape images back to BitSavers, so other people don't have to replicate what you did? > Trying to remember how to do a V7 installation with no docs was > interesting... Any chance you could write up some notes covering what your rememaber/did, for anyone else who'd like to try running RSTS-11? (I'd upload them to the Computer History wiki, if you like - I've, alas, not had any luck getting in touch with the Webmaster there about getting other people accounts...) When did V7 come out, BTW? And in looking around BitSavers a couple of days ago for RSTS-11 stuff, I didn't think I found much in the way of sources, just the binaries. Did I miss any? It would be really nice to have sources - are they gone forever? Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 10 16:14:03 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 17:14:03 -0500 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <20170210215155.7A3F318C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170210215155.7A3F318C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <04D1481A-CE11-48D5-AA44-0002C80051CE@comcast.net> > On Feb 10, 2017, at 4:51 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> I wrote a simple program to strip off those two bytes everywhere, and >> the result was a set of V7 kit tapes that work nicely. > > Any chance you could provide those 'ready to run' tape images back to > BitSavers, so other people don't have to replicate what you did? Sure, that would be easy. Al, how would you like them delivered? >> Trying to remember how to do a V7 installation with no docs was >> interesting... > > Any chance you could write up some notes covering what your rememaber/did, for > anyone else who'd like to try running RSTS-11? Actually, I should have looked; Al points out there is a SYSGEN manual on Bitsavers. > When did V7 come out, BTW? The files on the SYSGEN tape have a timestamp of 26-Sep-79, so "Fall 1979" sounds right. > And in looking around BitSavers a couple of days ago for RSTS-11 stuff, I > didn't think I found much in the way of sources, just the binaries. Did > I miss any? > > It would be really nice to have sources - are they gone forever? Some still exist. I know someone who has a RSTS source kit, not sure which version. I have pieces of source. A complication with all of this is the question of licensing. There's a hobbyist license for RSTS to build and run it, but whether that carries over to making sources available is an interesting question. I'm not sure who to ask these days, either. The V7 kit works nicely with the adjustment I did. I've used the V4A kit (DECtapes) to build that, need to play with it some more. (There's a V4A sysgen manual on Bitsavers too, and you'll want that because it sure is different from the later versions!) paul From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 01:11:36 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 00:11:36 -0700 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I assume that the shutdown of Slysoft (ANYDVD) was facilitated by DMCA. > I don't know, but I rather doubt it. The MPAA and/or studios would have publicized a victory against Slysoft. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 04:35:41 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 10:35:41 -0000 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <005201d28452$981d7de0$c85879a0$@outlook.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: 11 February 2017 07:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: LMI Lambda? > > On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > I assume that the shutdown of Slysoft (ANYDVD) was facilitated by DMCA. > > > > I don't know, but I rather doubt it. The MPAA and/or studios would have > publicized a victory against Slysoft. AnyDVD appears to be still available outside Germany... https://www.redfox.bz/purchase.html Dave From dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 05:26:17 2017 From: dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com (Dennis Grevenstein) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:26:17 +0100 Subject: SunOS 3.5 and SMD disks Message-ID: <54C75D62-2C7C-4EA4-AA42-C688A261DC79@gmail.com> Hi, I recently acquired an old Sun3 with a Fujitsu Eagle disk. This disk has SunOS 3.5 on it. Parts of the installation were missing, though. I wanted to build a new kernel with SCSI support and extracted the sys stuff from a 3.5EXPORT release tape. My machine however runs plain 3.5. I can build a new kernel, but some things won?t worked like allowing logins when a password is set. Is there anyone out there who could provide me with a tar of /usr/sys from a complete working SunOS 3.5 running on sun3? As a second question: The SunOS boot disk is a Fujitsu Eagle that often reports errors. I have a second Eagle that I might use as a backup, but I would have to reformat the second disks. How can I do that with SunOS 3.5? There is no ?format? command apparently. thanks, Dennis -- Don't suffer from insanity... Enjoy every minute of it. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Feb 11 09:08:12 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 10:08:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers Message-ID: <20170211150812.C265A18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning >> When did V7 come out, BTW? > The files on the SYSGEN tape have a timestamp of 26-Sep-79, so "Fall > 1979" sounds right. Ow. I was looking for something a lot earlier than that. I used RSTS-11 in the '72-'74 timeframe, so it's a version from that era I'd like to have. Any idea what version that would be - and if it's still extant? > I've used the V4A kit (DECtapes) to build that ... (There's a V4A > sysgen manual on Bitsavers too ...) When was that one? >> It would be really nice to have sources - are they gone forever? > Some still exist. I know someone who has a RSTS source kit, not sure > which version. I have pieces of source. OK, better than nothing. > A complication with all of this is the question of licensing. There's a > hobbyist license for RSTS to build and run it, but whether that carries > over to making sources available is an interesting question. I'm not > sure who to ask these days, either. Hmm. I guess technically HP owns it now? Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Feb 11 09:48:45 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 15:48:45 +0000 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <20170211150812.C265A18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170211150812.C265A18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa [jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu] Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 10:08 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers > From: Paul Koning >> When did V7 come out, BTW? > The files on the SYSGEN tape have a timestamp of 26-Sep-79, so "Fall > 1979" sounds right. Ow. I was looking for something a lot earlier than that. I used RSTS-11 in the '72-'74 timeframe, so it's a version from that era I'd like to have. Any idea what version that would be - and if it's still extant? > I've used the V4A kit (DECtapes) to build that ... (There's a V4A > sysgen manual on Bitsavers too ...) When was that one? >> It would be really nice to have sources - are they gone forever? > Some still exist. I know someone who has a RSTS source kit, not sure > which version. I have pieces of source. OK, better than nothing. > A complication with all of this is the question of licensing. There's a > hobbyist license for RSTS to build and run it, but whether that carries > over to making sources available is an interesting question. I'm not > sure who to ask these days, either. Hmm. I guess technically HP owns it now? Noel ______________________________________________________ Not so sure of that. When Mentec went away the word was that some other party had bought all of the old PDP-11 OSes (except maybe IAS) but I have heard nothing about it in several years and fear a lot of it may now have become lost. It certainly isn't being held in secret because of some percieved commercial value. RSTS was my favorite PDP-11 OS and I have long wanted to see it Open Sourced in its demise as I always wanted to try porting it to other machines just for the fun of it. bill From js at cimmeri.com Sat Feb 11 09:51:16 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 10:51:16 -0500 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <20170211150812.C265A18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <589F32F4.1040402@cimmeri.com> On 2/11/2017 10:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > RSTS was my favorite PDP-11 OS and I have long wanted to see it Open > Sourced in its demise as I always wanted to try porting it to other machines > just for the fun of it. > > bill I'm curious -- what made it your favourite, Bill? - J. From john.h.blake at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 09:48:38 2017 From: john.h.blake at gmail.com (John Blake) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 10:48:38 -0500 Subject: LMI Lambda? Message-ID: > > > Apple is slightly different -- the licence for Mac OS X stipulates > > > that you're only allowed to run it on Apple-branded hardware. This is > > > somewhere between rare and unique, though, and it has recently been > > > relaxed slightly to permit use of hypervisors. > > > > EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and should be used for the same > > purpose. > > > > Legally, they can and have been enforced. So their value is not nil > > when it comes to screwing up someone. I was always under the impression that EULAs existed, at this point, solely to scare corporate/commercial users into license compliance in order to avoid lengthy and draining court expenses, since they've been shown to be entirely unenforceable on individuals since the 90s. That's why Adobe stopped trying to prevent piracy of Photoshop on a single-user basis long ago, as an example. License compliance is irrelevant for individual users and particularly so for long obsolete software, i.e. anything that might reasonably be emulated. Even emulating a more recent video game system such as the Wii would be impossible to prevent given that the courts have decided that it is acceptable to create backups of software that you own and the original creator cannot prevent you from using that backup on a different platform than originally intended (recent example being ripping a CD you own and listening to it on an mp3 player, or more distant example, creating mixtapes for your personal use). Not that it would prevent you from having to deal with a court case, but in virtually every case I'm aware of over the last decade or so it's usually just been a cease and desist letter to show the company still intends to maintain copyright, but actually taking someone to court for emulation would be catastrophic for any corporation's public image and virtually guaranteed to be thrown out. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Feb 11 10:13:52 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 11:13:52 -0500 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <20170211150812.C265A18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170211150812.C265A18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Feb 11, 2017, at 10:08 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >>> When did V7 come out, BTW? > >> The files on the SYSGEN tape have a timestamp of 26-Sep-79, so "Fall >> 1979" sounds right. > > Ow. I was looking for something a lot earlier than that. I used RSTS-11 in > the '72-'74 timeframe, so it's a version from that era I'd like to have. Any > idea what version that would be - and if it's still extant? > >> I've used the V4A kit (DECtapes) to build that ... (There's a V4A >> sysgen manual on Bitsavers too ...) > > When was that one? That would most likely be the one you remember. "RSTS-11" was the name applied to V4 and earlier. On Bitsavers, you can find a V4A kit and the related manuals; also what looks like V3 which I have not tried. I should do that at some point. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Feb 11 10:20:40 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 11:20:40 -0500 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <20170211150812.C265A18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Feb 11, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > ... >> A complication with all of this is the question of licensing. There's a >> hobbyist license for RSTS to build and run it, but whether that carries >> over to making sources available is an interesting question. I'm not >> sure who to ask these days, either. > > Hmm. I guess technically HP owns it now? > > Noel > ______________________________________________________ > > Not so sure of that. When Mentec went away the word was that some other > party had bought all of the old PDP-11 OSes (except maybe IAS) but I have > heard nothing about it in several years and fear a lot of it may now have > become lost. It certainly isn't being held in secret because of some percieved > commercial value. You're probably thinking of XX2247 LLC, which apparently is the successor to Mentec. But I remember some discussion about what Mentec actually owned vs. what DEC/Compaq/HP retained. Or maybe I'm mixed up with the company that now works on VMS. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Feb 11 11:30:33 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 17:30:33 +0000 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <589F32F4.1040402@cimmeri.com> References: <20170211150812.C265A18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> , <589F32F4.1040402@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of js at cimmeri.com [js at cimmeri.com] Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 10:51 AM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion@ Subject: Re: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers On 2/11/2017 10:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > RSTS was my favorite PDP-11 OS and I have long wanted to see it Open > Sourced in its demise as I always wanted to try porting it to other machines > just for the fun of it. > > bill I'm curious -- what made it your favourite, Bill? - J. __________________________________________________ Don't really know. I just liked it. Even with all my Unix backgrounbd I have always had a penchant for some of the more obscure OSes. I liked Primos, too. bill From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 11:53:10 2017 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:53:10 -0500 Subject: 16MB memory module for a PC110 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jim, Follow this link for pics of my IBM PC110 memory module. The memory chips are marked Hitachi 51W17800BTT7 but I can't seem to find a data sheet. Unfortunately, it doesn't boot at the moment. I'll charge it up and see if she'll boot. http://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-pc-110-memory-module/ It is a very cool unit. Hope this helps, Santo On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 10 February 2017 at 09:11, Jim Brain wrote: > > I know it's a "newer" PC compatible machine, but I was wondering if > anyone > > had a 20MB PC110 Palmtop > > > That's very cute. :?) I am surprised but AFAIK I've never heard of them > before. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 12:06:12 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 14:06:12 -0400 Subject: 16MB memory module for a PC110 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02172dd1-8c76-b01b-8721-a074f772489d@gmail.com> You might want to try just searching for 17800B that will get you data sheets for 2 MB RAM chips from other manufacturers, so I would suspect what you have there is a 16MB RAM module.. Paul On 2017-02-11 1:53 PM, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Hi Jim, > > Follow this link for pics of my IBM PC110 memory module. The memory chips > are marked Hitachi 51W17800BTT7 but I can't seem to find a data sheet. > Unfortunately, it doesn't boot at the moment. I'll charge it up and see if > she'll boot. > > http://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-pc-110-memory-module/ > > It is a very cool unit. Hope this helps, > Santo > > On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 10 February 2017 at 09:11, Jim Brain wrote: >>> I know it's a "newer" PC compatible machine, but I was wondering if >> anyone >>> had a 20MB PC110 Palmtop >> >> That's very cute. :?) I am surprised but AFAIK I've never heard of them >> before. >> >> -- >> Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven >> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com >> Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven >> UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 >> From isking at uw.edu Sat Feb 11 13:24:52 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 11:24:52 -0800 Subject: Disassembly of a DG One? Message-ID: Hey all, Is anyone out there familiar with disassembly of the Data General DG One portable? I have one of the EL models - it looks so cool! - and the hard drive is stuck. I want pull it out and repair it, but I've reached an impasse. I have the machine disassembled and the HD case is accessible, but there is no obvious way to remove it. I don't like to just force things, for obvious reasons. Thanks to anyone with some advice. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 11 13:42:17 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 11:42:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <7b88c8b4-d19b-5116-5550-470ca20b0180@bitsavers.org> <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: >> I assume that the shutdown of Slysoft (ANYDVD) was facilitated by DMCA. On Sat, 11 Feb 2017, Eric Smith wrote: > I don't know, but I rather doubt it. The MPAA and/or studios would have > publicized a victory against Slysoft. That would make sense. At least as far as I understand it, and would seem like that would be more important to them than keeping silent to avoid greater public awareness of the existence of such work-arounds. I don't have a good grasp of any of the details about how such things work, nor even of who the players actually are. And information seems to be sparse. http://www.myce.com/news/leaked-documents-shows-aacs-la-wants-to-shutdown-slysoft-75865/ seems to state that it was the doing of AACS-LA, but how reliable are they? On Sat, 11 Feb 2017, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com wrote: > AnyDVD appears to be still available outside Germany... > https://www.redfox.bz/purchase.html But SlySoft did shut down, claiming "legal pressure" RedFox, who surfaced as the new distributor, is presumably mostly the same people, resurfacing as a "new" company "to continue the fight". 'course some conspiracy theorists speculate that that was just to be able to clear out the "lifetime" licenses. Apparently the more recent versions will not work without an internet link to the distributor's servers. From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 11:12:57 2017 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 10:12:57 -0700 Subject: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <20170211150812.C265A18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170211150812.C265A18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I have put RSTS-11 media, docs and install log at: http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/RSTS-11/Install.htm --barrym On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 8:08 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > >> When did V7 come out, BTW? > > > The files on the SYSGEN tape have a timestamp of 26-Sep-79, so "Fall > > 1979" sounds right. > > Ow. I was looking for something a lot earlier than that. I used RSTS-11 in > the '72-'74 timeframe, so it's a version from that era I'd like to have. > Any > idea what version that would be - and if it's still extant? > > > I've used the V4A kit (DECtapes) to build that ... (There's a V4A > > sysgen manual on Bitsavers too ...) > > When was that one? > > > >> It would be really nice to have sources - are they gone forever? > > > Some still exist. I know someone who has a RSTS source kit, not sure > > which version. I have pieces of source. > > OK, better than nothing. > > > A complication with all of this is the question of licensing. > There's a > > hobbyist license for RSTS to build and run it, but whether that > carries > > over to making sources available is an interesting question. I'm not > > sure who to ask these days, either. > > Hmm. I guess technically HP owns it now? > > Noel > From bear at typewritten.org Sat Feb 11 14:03:43 2017 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:03:43 -0800 Subject: SunOS 3.5 and SMD disks In-Reply-To: <54C75D62-2C7C-4EA4-AA42-C688A261DC79@gmail.com> References: <54C75D62-2C7C-4EA4-AA42-C688A261DC79@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2017, at 3:26 AM, Dennis Grevenstein wrote: > SunOS 3.5? There is no ?format? command apparently. Prior to SunOS 4, the formatter is standalone. You'll need to boot it from tape. ok bear. -- until further notice From brain at jbrain.com Sat Feb 11 14:48:53 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 14:48:53 -0600 Subject: 16MB memory module for a PC110 In-Reply-To: <02172dd1-8c76-b01b-8721-a074f772489d@gmail.com> References: <02172dd1-8c76-b01b-8721-a074f772489d@gmail.com> Message-ID: <909ead7c-136d-8e49-79fa-02cac3a61125@jbrain.com> On 2/11/2017 12:06 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > You might want to try just searching for 17800B that will get you data > sheets for 2 MB RAM chips from other manufacturers, so I would suspect > what you have there is a 16MB RAM module.. > > Paul > > > On 2017-02-11 1:53 PM, Santo Nucifora wrote: >> Hi Jim, >> >> Follow this link for pics of my IBM PC110 memory module. The memory >> chips >> are marked Hitachi 51W17800BTT7 but I can't seem to find a data sheet. >> Unfortunately, it doesn't boot at the moment. I'll charge it up and >> see if >> she'll boot. >> >> http://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-pc-110-memory-module/ >> >> It is a very cool unit. Hope this helps, It does, and it both helps and hinders. The part number is a 2Mb x 8 FP DRAM, and 8 of them make up the 16MB of DRAM. That part is great news (mainly for you, but it's nice to have a pic) The bad news is that I had hoped I could simply replace the ICs on my unit with 4Mb x 16 FP DRAMs, assuming that's how they did the 16MB unit, but it does not appear that way. I guess I could replicate the PCB, and try to find 8 of those DRAMs.... At least I have the connector Are you interested in selling the unit? Do you want someone to test it? Does anyone else know of a 4Mb x 16 variety that is FP DRAM? Jim From brain at jbrain.com Sat Feb 11 15:27:49 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 15:27:49 -0600 Subject: 16MB memory module for a PC110 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9745f1f7-971a-e7c1-37cb-ebbf648e2965@jbrain.com> On 2/11/2017 11:53 AM, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Hi Jim, > > Follow this link for pics of my IBM PC110 memory module. The memory chips > are marked Hitachi 51W17800BTT7 but I can't seem to find a data sheet. For your records: http://www.datasheetlib.com/datasheet/160793/51w17800_hitachi-semiconductor.html#datasheet From als at thangorodrim.ch Sat Feb 11 17:00:28 2017 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 00:00:28 +0100 Subject: LMI Lambda? In-Reply-To: References: <4B299AF7-77A1-453E-9AF4-2E13534D99F2@lunar-tokyo.net> <0C7CF017-75F5-4D2B-8A73-1685274EE1B8@eschatologist.net> <4DB2AE25-EBF1-48BB-967F-FE9633E3D047@lunar-tokyo.net> <201702091313.IAA27615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20170211230028.GA25675@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 11:24:55AM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > > Apple is slightly different -- the licence for Mac OS X stipulates > > that you're only allowed to run it on Apple-branded hardware. This is > > somewhere between rare and unique, though, and it has recently been > > relaxed slightly to permit use of hypervisors. > > EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and should be used for the same > purpose. > > Legally, they can and have been enforced. So their value is not nil > when it comes to screwing up someone. As usual with legal questions, the answer is "it depends". For example, shrink wrap EULAs (where you only get to read the EULA once you have purchased the product) have been declared the equivalent of toilet paper in Germany many years ago. Microsoft was not pleased. ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From j_hoppe at t-online.de Sun Feb 12 02:43:59 2017 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 09:43:59 +0100 Subject: tu58fs - oversized TU58 tapes under XXDP and RT-11 Message-ID: <0e91775f-0b4b-61bd-a336-56d064ac8cfb@t-online.de> Friends, tu58fs 1.1 now supports oversized TU58 tape images, with capacity up to 32MB instead of 256KB. This was easy to made for XXDP. Under RT-11 the DD.SYS driver must be patched and reinstalled, tu58fs now handles this automatically. The GITHUB release at https://github.com/j-hoppe/tu58fs/releases contains 2 new demos: "demo_xxdp_oversize" packs the whole XXDP25 RL02 disk content onto an emulated tu58 "demo_rt11_oversize" boots a full RT-11 installation from TU58, and mounts a 2nd tape full of games. Docs at http://retrocmp.com/tools/tu58fs were updated. And I feel pretty empty now ... hope you love it! Joerg From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 12 06:59:19 2017 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 12:59:19 +0000 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: On 09/02/17 20:06, Mark G Thomas wrote: > http://files.markgthomas.com/dl/sunkey/ > > I thought maybe having a picture would help in finding the correct key. A little part of me wants to get hold of one of these keys and the matching lock, match it to a key blank and measure the bitting... Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Feb 12 08:23:16 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 09:23:16 -0500 Subject: tu58fs - oversized TU58 tapes under XXDP and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <0e91775f-0b4b-61bd-a336-56d064ac8cfb@t-online.de> References: <0e91775f-0b4b-61bd-a336-56d064ac8cfb@t-online.de> Message-ID: On Feb 12, 2017 3:44 AM, "J?rg Hoppe" wrote: > > Friends, > > tu58fs 1.1 now supports oversized TU58 tape images, with capacity up to 32MB instead of 256KB. > > This was easy to made for XXDP. Under RT-11 the DD.SYS driver must be patched and reinstalled, tu58fs now handles this > Joerg > Thanks Joerg Bill From cruff at ruffspot.net Sun Feb 12 12:05:17 2017 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 11:05:17 -0700 Subject: Information Request: unidentified HP 9825T instructions Message-ID: <83B183AE-20BF-442E-85A8-3834099A0C0D@ruffspot.net> I am working on the disassembly and commenting of the 98228A disk ROM for the 9825T, and my disassembler flagged two instructions as invalid. They are used inside a routine that copies blocks of words from various banks of the ROM into low RAM. The first, bit pattern 070113, is used immediately after a dir (disable interrupt) instruction. The second, bit pattern 070117, is used immediately before an eir (enable interrupt) instruction. The ?invalid? instructions do not match any instructions described in the 9825A patent, nor are present in the 9835 or 9845 assemblers instruction descriptions. From the surrounding code, it doesn?t appear that these instructions reference any of the user visible CPU registers, but are used in some way that enhances the effect of dir/eir and ensures the block copy is not interfered with. Anyone have any ideas? Possibly a DMA request ignore/resume pair? From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Feb 12 13:14:30 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 11:14:30 -0800 Subject: Disassembly of a DG One? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bring it by and I'll show you how it's done. I'm sure I can remember with one in front of me. On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 11:24 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > Hey all, > > Is anyone out there familiar with disassembly of the Data General DG One > portable? I have one of the EL models - it looks so cool! - and the hard > drive is stuck. I want pull it out and repair it, but I've reached an > impasse. I have the machine disassembled and the HD case is accessible, but > there is no obvious way to remove it. I don't like to just force things, > for obvious reasons. Thanks to anyone with some advice. -- Ian > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Mon Feb 13 01:58:27 2017 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 02:58:27 -0500 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <1e7710cb02aa03e2d38c0845fb3a6fc5@triadic.us> On 2017-02-12 07:59, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 09/02/17 20:06, Mark G Thomas wrote: >> http://files.markgthomas.com/dl/sunkey/ >> >> I thought maybe having a picture would help in finding the correct >> key. > > A little part of me wants to get hold of one of these keys and the > matching lock, match it to a key blank and measure the bitting... > > Cheers, Am i wrong in thinking all sun keys are identical up until the E25K? Like i said earlier, my V890 key works in all my circa ~1990 sun gear. These keys are pretty easy to find on ebay (in the US anyways). http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-Fire-V880-Server-Bezel-Key-/272532177241?hash=item3f742f0159:g:8mgAAOSw5cNYhgUb http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUN-MICROSYSTEMS-KEYS-350-1651-01-/111613413055?hash=item19fcad86bf:m:mCTY6wGdWH6b9WiORB0DrhA From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Mon Feb 13 01:58:27 2017 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 02:58:27 -0500 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <1e7710cb02aa03e2d38c0845fb3a6fc5@triadic.us> On 2017-02-12 07:59, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 09/02/17 20:06, Mark G Thomas wrote: >> http://files.markgthomas.com/dl/sunkey/ >> >> I thought maybe having a picture would help in finding the correct >> key. > > A little part of me wants to get hold of one of these keys and the > matching lock, match it to a key blank and measure the bitting... > > Cheers, Am i wrong in thinking all sun keys are identical up until the E25K? Like i said earlier, my V890 key works in all my circa ~1990 sun gear. These keys are pretty easy to find on ebay (in the US anyways). http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-Fire-V880-Server-Bezel-Key-/272532177241?hash=item3f742f0159:g:8mgAAOSw5cNYhgUb http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUN-MICROSYSTEMS-KEYS-350-1651-01-/111613413055?hash=item19fcad86bf:m:mCTY6wGdWH6b9WiORB0DrhA From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 04:06:25 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 10:06:25 +0000 Subject: Trend HSR500 Paper Tape Reader manual Message-ID: I am not sure if anyone is interested, but I've scanned the manual for the Trend HSR500 and HSR500P optical paper tape readers. If I've got the permissions right, then you can get it from my google drive on : https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5uNCTLB4VsqRU9TWDIzWnZYaU0 It's a large file, I don't think the scanner software has heard of compression!. If anyone can make it a more reasonable size, feel free... This is a proper manual with schematics, parts lists, adjustment info, etc. I've also scanned the circuit diagrams for the Trend Paper Tape Station, here https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5uNCTLB4VsqemRFMnVNb0l5WU0 The Paper Tape Station is a rack unit containing an HSR500 reader, power supply, GNT34 punch and a driver card for the punch. Those diagrams are for the punch driver and power supply, you need the HSR500 manual as well. Let me know if it all works... -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Feb 13 05:03:38 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 11:03:38 +0000 Subject: 8085 RAM testing program Message-ID: Hi folks, I'm at the point of troubleshooting this 8085 board where I need to test all the RAM. The code loops at an IN looking for....something. Based on other assembly programs I've looked at the code is very similar to eg a disk controller looking for a READY signal from a drive. Trouble is I have no idea what's expected to be at I/O port 0xE3. If it was one of the peripheral chips I'd expect a chip select line to go low. The 74LS139 that does chip select is OK - I've tested it off-board and all traces going to it buzz out OK. The code uses upper RAM as a scratch pad so what I'd like to do is replace the $0000 ROM with an EPROM containing RAM test code. I've found incomplete examples that need to be tailored so before I go reinventing the wheel has anyone got a working example I can use? Warnings of things I should and shouldn't do? RAM is at $8000-$FFFF, and at least some of it is ok since the stack pointer is up at 0xF0B3 and I can trace the code by watching which addresses it's reading. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 04:39:40 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 10:39:40 +0000 Subject: Information Request: unidentified HP 9825T instructions In-Reply-To: <83B183AE-20BF-442E-85A8-3834099A0C0D@ruffspot.net> References: <83B183AE-20BF-442E-85A8-3834099A0C0D@ruffspot.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Craig Ruff wrote: > I am working on the disassembly and commenting of the 98228A disk ROM for the 9825T, and my disassembler > flagged two instructions as invalid. They are used inside a routine that copies blocks of words from various banks > of the ROM into low RAM. The first, bit pattern 070113, is used immediately after a dir (disable interrupt) instruction. > The second, bit pattern 070117, is used immediately before an eir (enable interrupt) instruction. The ?invalid? > instructions do not match any instructions described in the 9825A patent, nor are present in the 9835 or 9845 > assemblers instruction descriptions. From the surrounding code, it doesn?t appear that these instructions reference > any of the user visible CPU registers, but are used in some way that enhances the effect of dir/eir and ensures the > block copy is not interfered with. > > Anyone have any ideas? Possibly a DMA request ignore/resume pair? My first thought, and it's probably wrong, is that these instrucitons (which differ by one bit, so might be setting/reseting something) are NOPs to the CPU, but are interpretted by the memory mapping hardware in those 9825s that have more than 64K or RAM and ROM total. Possibly to map in the RAM that's used for the destination. -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Feb 13 08:18:37 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 14:18:37 +0000 Subject: 8085 RAM testing program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Look up March C. It is one of the most simple but thorough RAM test. It is the test most commonly used by manufactures. It only needs one address counter and unlike other is fast. The coding is simple. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 3:03 AM To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: 8085 RAM testing program Hi folks, I'm at the point of troubleshooting this 8085 board where I need to test all the RAM. The code loops at an IN looking for....something. Based on other assembly programs I've looked at the code is very similar to eg a disk controller looking for a READY signal from a drive. Trouble is I have no idea what's expected to be at I/O port 0xE3. If it was one of the peripheral chips I'd expect a chip select line to go low. The 74LS139 that does chip select is OK - I've tested it off-board and all traces going to it buzz out OK. The code uses upper RAM as a scratch pad so what I'd like to do is replace the $0000 ROM with an EPROM containing RAM test code. I've found incomplete examples that need to be tailored so before I go reinventing the wheel has anyone got a working example I can use? Warnings of things I should and shouldn't do? RAM is at $8000-$FFFF, and at least some of it is ok since the stack pointer is up at 0xF0B3 and I can trace the code by watching which addresses it's reading. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 08:51:17 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 14:51:17 +0000 Subject: 8085 RAM testing program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 February 2017 at 14:18, dwight wrote: > ook up March C. > > It is one of the most simple but thorough RAM test. It is > > the test most commonly used by manufactures. > > It only needs one address counter and unlike other > > is fast. > > The coding is simple > Cheers Dwight! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From hachti at hachti.de Mon Feb 13 09:00:26 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:00:26 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Message-ID: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> Hi folks, it has taken a while but I'm now actively planning to shift out another batch of OmniUSB boards. The last batch is sold out for a long time and I've been asked for more from time to time. As some of you might remember, it's a cool device to connect your pdp8/f/a/m/e to the modern world using lightning fast USB. The originial board has it's website here: http://pdp8.hachti.de/projects/omni_usb/ The new board will do the same, perhaps even more. - the USB connector will be replaced by a mini (NOT micro!!) USB connector. - The connector position and cable routing will be improved. - The board will be shorter. But it will come by default with a laser cut acrylic extension that makes it full size again. There will be at least those options to buy: - Kit (board + all parts) - Kit+ (board + all parts, SMT already assembled) Possible: - complete version - Everything soldered and tested. - discount for omitting acrylic extender I cannot guarantee that I can deliver fully assembled boards (regulations) and would be able to do that only if there's a reasonable number of interested buyers. If have set up a doodle poll to get a realistic picture of the interest in the board/kit/device: http://doodle.com/poll/d7y524mvyfezqp9w PLEASE take the minute and fill in your name (ideally that I can recognise you) and check the options which most precisely match your demands. PLEASE be as honest as possible as I will base my decisions IF and for which PRICE I can run the show. Thank you!!! Kind regards Philipp :-) From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 10:16:54 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 11:16:54 -0500 Subject: PDP 11 Line Time Clock (LW11L) M787 and EIS board, (KE11E) M7238 Message-ID: Question - I am working on a PDP 11 KE11E M7238 EIS board (for PDP 11/40) which causes the CPU to crash when installed; front panel not responsive, can't boot XXDP. I installed a removable jumper so I can flip jumper configs back and forth between EIS installed/not installed. Without the EIS the system works fine, can boot OS's that do not require it like RT11. As discussed before the EIS is required if I want to boot up UNIX 6 on the 11/40, which is a goal of mine. Thought - I don't have a LW11L, M787 installed. This is a the Line TIme Clock option card. Do you think that maybe the EIS board requires this for some reason, even though there are no references to this as a requirement in any docs I can find? Maybe the docs writers assume it's installed? I only wonder because any time I have seen the M7238 installed in an 11/40 I have also seen a M787. I could swap out the current 11/40 backplane with a backplane that has the jumpers for the M787 already removed, but I only want to do this if it's necessary. When we were talking before I neglected to mention I had no M787, you may have assumed I did. Bill From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Feb 13 10:34:01 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 08:34:01 -0800 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: Thanks for doing this project and I have signed up! Curious why mini usb and why the exclamation points regarding "NOT micro?" Micro is so common. I have tons of usb-micro cables for all my devices. I don?t think I've seen a device made in the last several years with a mini. I have no mini usb cables, not that I can't purchase one, of course! Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philipp Hachtmann Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 10:00 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Hi folks, it has taken a while but I'm now actively planning to shift out another batch of OmniUSB boards. The last batch is sold out for a long time and I've been asked for more from time to time. As some of you might remember, it's a cool device to connect your pdp8/f/a/m/e to the modern world using lightning fast USB. The originial board has it's website here: http://pdp8.hachti.de/projects/omni_usb/ The new board will do the same, perhaps even more. - the USB connector will be replaced by a mini (NOT micro!!) USB connector. - The connector position and cable routing will be improved. - The board will be shorter. But it will come by default with a laser cut acrylic extension that makes it full size again. There will be at least those options to buy: - Kit (board + all parts) - Kit+ (board + all parts, SMT already assembled) Possible: - complete version - Everything soldered and tested. - discount for omitting acrylic extender I cannot guarantee that I can deliver fully assembled boards (regulations) and would be able to do that only if there's a reasonable number of interested buyers. If have set up a doodle poll to get a realistic picture of the interest in the board/kit/device: http://doodle.com/poll/d7y524mvyfezqp9w PLEASE take the minute and fill in your name (ideally that I can recognise you) and check the options which most precisely match your demands. PLEASE be as honest as possible as I will base my decisions IF and for which PRICE I can run the show. Thank you!!! Kind regards Philipp :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 10:36:49 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 11:36:49 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 11:34 AM, W2HX wrote: > Thanks for doing this project and I have signed up! Me too. > Curious why mini usb and why the exclamation points regarding "NOT micro? > " Micro is so common. I have tons of usb-micro cables for all my devices. I don?t > think I've seen a device made in the last several years with a mini. I have no mini > usb cables, not that I can't purchase one, of course! I was also slightly curious, but I have a pile of mini USB cables from external drives, a ZipIt palmtop texting device, and even my ZoomFloppy, so I'm all set there. I don't mind a dedicated cable sticking out of my PDP-8. -ethan From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 13 11:44:17 2017 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 09:44:17 -0800 Subject: Trend HSR500 Paper Tape Reader manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453849c8-0ebc-114a-7dba-42cead8709fc@sbcglobal.net> On 2/13/2017 2:06 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > I am not sure if anyone is interested, but I've scanned the manual > for the Trend > HSR500 and HSR500P optical paper tape readers. If I've got the > permissions right, > then you can get it from my google drive on : > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5uNCTLB4VsqRU9TWDIzWnZYaU0 > > It's a large file, I don't think the scanner software has heard of > compression!. If anyone > can make it a more reasonable size, feel free... > > This is a proper manual with schematics, parts lists, adjustment info, etc. > > I've also scanned the circuit diagrams for the Trend Paper Tape Station, here > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5uNCTLB4VsqemRFMnVNb0l5WU0 > > The Paper Tape Station is a rack unit containing an HSR500 reader, power supply, > GNT34 punch and a driver card for the punch. Those diagrams are for > the punch driver > and power supply, you need the HSR500 manual as well. > > Let me know if it all works... > > -tony > Thanks Tony! I ran them through Acrobat's optimizer and put them up here: http://dvq.com/docs/Trend/ Much smaller, though slightly less clear. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 13 12:10:47 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 10:10:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Feb 2017, W2HX wrote: > Thanks for doing this project and I have signed up! Curious why mini usb > and why the exclamation points regarding "NOT micro?" Micro is so > common. I have tons of usb-micro cables for all my devices. I don?t > think I've seen a device made in the last several years with a mini. I > have no mini usb cables, not that I can't purchase one, of course! There are claims that MICRO-USB has better reliability, with many more insertion cycles than MINI-USB. But, MICRO has more of a symmetry problem than MINI. In poor light, it is easier to get MINI right-side-up than MICRO. THAT is apparently why USB-C was developed. it is symmetrical. Apple has shown with "LIGHTNING", single button mouse, etc., that it is always safer to under-estimate the intelligence and abilities of your users. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Feb 13 12:22:46 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 13:22:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP 11 Line Time Clock (LW11L) M787 and EIS board, (KE11E) M7238 Message-ID: <20170213182246.9E23918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > PDP 11 KE11E M7238 EIS board (for PDP 11/40) which causes the CPU to > crash when installed; front panel not responsive > ... > I installed a removable jumper so I can flip jumper configs back and > forth between EIS installed/not installed. Without the EIS the system > works fine To understand this symptom, one needs to understand how the EIS interacts with the main CPU. Both include microcode, and what is supposed to happen is that when an EIS instruction happens, control is passed to the microcode on the EIS board (the actual microcode words being fed back to the main CPU through those three over-the-back jumper cables). The microcode on the EIS board can then control the data paths, etc in the main CPU, to feed the EIS data, and take back the results of the computation performed on the EIS card. I'm trying to understand what W1 does, but I'm not there yet. It's shown on the KD11-A print K3-8 (pg. 48), in the lower left corner, but its effects are somewhat obscure. To start with, the array of odd chips E6-E7 (74H60's) and E17 (74H53) are expandable AND-OR gates. I'd never seen these before, but the lines running to and from pins 11 and 12 on the 'H53 join the other three gates below it into it - i.e. that whole array of AND gates all feed into one NOR gate (output on pin 8 of the 'H53). So far, so good, but from there I'm still lost. When W1 is inserted (no EIS) it grounds the signal ECIN00, which comes in from off-board (as shown by the "A05S2", which is the pin it arrives on). The output of that giant NOR gate is CIN00, which is immediately sent off-board (pin 'A05P1'). I have yet to try and chase these signals down, and work out what they do; the KD11-A Tech Manual is fairly cryptic on the subject. Note also that, IIRC, the front console operates under control of microcode. So I'm _guessing_ that what is happening is that somehow the EIS is, when enabled, messing up the operation of the microcode in the main CPU, causing it to freeze. > Thought - I don't have a LW11L, M787 installed. ... Do you think that > maybe the EIS board requires this for some reason No. I've looked at the KW11-L prints in the past, and it's just a very simple UNIBUS device. I don't see any way it not being there could cause the symptoms under discussion. > I could swap out the current 11/40 backplane with a backplane that has > the jumpers for the M787 already removed I think it's only one jumper - for BG6, no? > I neglected to mention I had no M787 To run Unix V6 you'll need either a KW11-L or KW11-P (see previous discussion about how Unix needs a clock - both at a low level, because it will panic() if it doesn't find one, and at a high level, because even if we patch the panic, stuff won't 'work right' without one). Noel From lproven at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 12:36:44 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 19:36:44 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: On 13 February 2017 at 19:10, Fred Cisin wrote: > THAT is apparently why USB-C was developed. it is symmetrical. Well, it's not _only_ that, but it's part of it. Apple led the way with its symmetrical Lightning connector: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(connector) This introduced millions of customers to a USB-sized single plug for data, audio & power that could go into its socket either way. That "primed the pump". Then a design student published a, well, um, a design for a USB plug that could go in either way: http://dornob.com/double-sided-usb-solves-painfully-universal-design-problem/ This was widely admired and discussed, or as they say now, "went viral". I think some companies implemented it but it violates the USB formal spec. (Not that that bothers the cheapo vendors -- e.g. I have both external hard disks and a laptop cooling stand that both take a USB *A* to *A* cable. I.e. the computer-end connector on both ends. This is highly illegal -- you could connect 2 computers directly and blow at least one of them up thereby -- but nobody enforces the rules.) The bi-directional plug and Lightning both demonstrated that this was desirable, possible, and that there was demand. Also, there were the bodges of USB 3 extensions to the micro-USB spec such as this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_3.0#/media/File:Connector_USB_3_IMGP6033_wp.jpg ... and this... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_3.0#/media/File:USB-3.0-Stecker_(Typ_B).jpg And commentary such as this: http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/5/4696874/galaxy-note-3-usb-3-0-power-connector-explained Sort of Siamese-twin double connectors -- big and ugly and a very visible kludge. Something Had To Be Done. USB C is the result. And although owners and prospective owners of the new MacBook Pro laptops are complaining widely that they *only* have USB-C ports, it's actually a good thing, IMHO. As this eloquently explains: https://medium.com/@ageitgey/the-new-macbook-pro-is-kind-of-great-for-hackers-64c1c577a4d2#.bfca5smcu The higher-end MacBook Pro has 4 of them -- *and nothing else*. You can plug the power cable into any of them. Doesn't matter. Plug a display in to any of them. Doesn't matter. Phone, memory stick, wired network cable, docking station. Any port. Doesn't matter. Plug the power supply into the MacBook, the MacBook charges. Plug the same cable into your phone, the phone charges. Plug the phone into the MacBook -- same cable -- the phone charges and syncs. I really like the idea of a small silent computer that's got a bunch of ports and anything plugs into anything. 2 or 3 screens? Just works. Sync several phones? Just works. Where's the power socket? There isn't one. Plug it in anywhere. If it fits, it works, either way round. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 12:42:46 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 13:42:46 -0500 Subject: PDP 11 Line Time Clock (LW11L) M787 and EIS board, (KE11E) M7238 In-Reply-To: <20170213182246.9E23918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170213182246.9E23918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 1:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > PDP 11 KE11E M7238 EIS board (for PDP 11/40) which causes the CPU to > > crash when installed; front panel not responsive > > ... > > I installed a removable jumper so I can flip jumper configs back and > > forth between EIS installed/not installed. Without the EIS the system > > works fine > > To understand this symptom, one needs to understand how the EIS interacts > with the main CPU. Both include microcode, and what is supposed to happen > is > that when an EIS instruction happens, control is passed to the microcode on > the EIS board (the actual microcode words being fed back to the main CPU > through those three over-the-back jumper cables). The microcode on the EIS > board can then control the data paths, etc in the main CPU, to feed the EIS > data, and take back the results of the computation performed on the EIS > card. > > I'm trying to understand what W1 does, but I'm not there yet. It's shown on > the KD11-A print K3-8 (pg. 48), in the lower left corner, but its effects > are > somewhat obscure. > > To start with, the array of odd chips E6-E7 (74H60's) and E17 (74H53) are > expandable AND-OR gates. I'd never seen these before, but the lines running > to and from pins 11 and 12 on the 'H53 join the other three gates below it > into it - i.e. that whole array of AND gates all feed into one NOR gate > (output on pin 8 of the 'H53). > > So far, so good, but from there I'm still lost. When W1 is inserted (no > EIS) > it grounds the signal ECIN00, which comes in from off-board (as shown by > the > "A05S2", which is the pin it arrives on). The output of that giant NOR gate > is CIN00, which is immediately sent off-board (pin 'A05P1'). I have yet to > try and chase these signals down, and work out what they do; the KD11-A > Tech > Manual is fairly cryptic on the subject. > > Note also that, IIRC, the front console operates under control of > microcode. > > So I'm _guessing_ that what is happening is that somehow the EIS is, when > enabled, messing up the operation of the microcode in the main CPU, causing > it to freeze. > > > > Probably would not be a bad idea to test the cable and the connectors as well as the board. There could also be a fault with the UWord module (M7232) associated with signal processing too. From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 11:20:44 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 09:20:44 -0800 Subject: PDP 11 Line Time Clock (LW11L) M787 and EIS board, (KE11E) M7238 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <131f7f8f-1aec-918a-f4a0-fd253ccc3e43@gmail.com> On 2/13/17 8:16 AM, william degnan wrote: > Question - I am working on a PDP 11 KE11E M7238 EIS board (for PDP 11/40) > which causes the CPU to crash when installed; front panel not responsive, > can't boot XXDP. I installed a removable jumper so I can flip jumper > configs back and forth between EIS installed/not installed. Without the > EIS the system works fine, can boot OS's that do not require it like RT11. > > As discussed before the EIS is required if I want to boot up UNIX 6 on the > 11/40, which is a goal of mine. > > Thought - I don't have a LW11L, M787 installed. This is a the Line TIme > Clock option card. Do you think that maybe the EIS board requires this for > some reason, even though there are no references to this as a requirement > in any docs I can find? Maybe the docs writers assume it's installed? I > only wonder because any time I have seen the M7238 installed in an 11/40 I > have also seen a M787. > > I could swap out the current 11/40 backplane with a backplane that has the > jumpers for the M787 already removed, but I only want to do this if it's > necessary. When we were talking before I neglected to mention I had no > M787, you may have assumed I did. I think it's extremely unlikely that the EIS requires an LTC to function, I can't think of any reason why this would be the case, or why it would cause the effects you're seeing. I also don't recall seeing any such requirements in the hardware documentation, but it's been a little while since I last looked at them (while installing the MMU and Stack Limit Register in my own 11/40). Can you be more detailed in your description of the behavior you're seeing? Is the system unresponsive at power-up, or is it only after attempting to boot that it "crashes"? Can you toggle in programs and run them? I'll also add that regardless of what's going on with your EIS, you *will* need an LTC to run V6 UNIX so you might think about getting one set up anyway. - Josh > > > > Bill > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Feb 13 11:41:58 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 09:41:58 -0800 Subject: PDP 11 Line Time Clock (LW11L) M787 and EIS board, (KE11E) M7238 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00B28382-ADFF-4094-B3DD-08D43569F021@shiresoft.com> If you have a M7856 which is a SLU and LTC on one board you don?t need an M787. I assume that they you have the EIS board installed, you have the 3 jumper cables between the EIS and the uCode board. KM11s will help in diagnosing these issues as it allows you to single step through the uCode. TTFN - Guy > On Feb 13, 2017, at 8:16 AM, william degnan wrote: > > Question - I am working on a PDP 11 KE11E M7238 EIS board (for PDP 11/40) > which causes the CPU to crash when installed; front panel not responsive, > can't boot XXDP. I installed a removable jumper so I can flip jumper > configs back and forth between EIS installed/not installed. Without the > EIS the system works fine, can boot OS's that do not require it like RT11. > > As discussed before the EIS is required if I want to boot up UNIX 6 on the > 11/40, which is a goal of mine. > > Thought - I don't have a LW11L, M787 installed. This is a the Line TIme > Clock option card. Do you think that maybe the EIS board requires this for > some reason, even though there are no references to this as a requirement > in any docs I can find? Maybe the docs writers assume it's installed? I > only wonder because any time I have seen the M7238 installed in an 11/40 I > have also seen a M787. > > I could swap out the current 11/40 backplane with a backplane that has the > jumpers for the M787 already removed, but I only want to do this if it's > necessary. When we were talking before I neglected to mention I had no > M787, you may have assumed I did. > > > > Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 12:05:02 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 13:05:02 -0500 Subject: PDP 11 Line Time Clock (LW11L) M787 and EIS board, (KE11E) M7238 In-Reply-To: <131f7f8f-1aec-918a-f4a0-fd253ccc3e43@gmail.com> References: <131f7f8f-1aec-918a-f4a0-fd253ccc3e43@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 2/13/17 8:16 AM, william degnan wrote: > > Question - I am working on a PDP 11 KE11E M7238 EIS board (for PDP 11/40) >> which causes the CPU to crash when installed; front panel not responsive, >> can't boot XXDP. I installed a removable jumper so I can flip jumper >> configs back and forth between EIS installed/not installed. Without the >> EIS the system works fine, can boot OS's that do not require it like RT11. >> >> As discussed before the EIS is required if I want to boot up UNIX 6 on the >> 11/40, which is a goal of mine. >> >> Thought - I don't have a LW11L, M787 installed. This is a the Line TIme >> Clock option card. Do you think that maybe the EIS board requires this >> for >> some reason, even though there are no references to this as a requirement >> in any docs I can find? Maybe the docs writers assume it's installed? I >> only wonder because any time I have seen the M7238 installed in an 11/40 I >> have also seen a M787. >> >> I could swap out the current 11/40 backplane with a backplane that has the >> jumpers for the M787 already removed, but I only want to do this if it's >> necessary. When we were talking before I neglected to mention I had no >> M787, you may have assumed I did. >> > > I think it's extremely unlikely that the EIS requires an LTC to function, > I can't think of any reason why this would be the case, or why it would > cause the effects you're seeing. I also don't recall seeing any such > requirements in the hardware documentation, but it's been a little while > since I last looked at them (while installing the MMU and Stack Limit > Register in my own 11/40). > > Can you be more detailed in your description of the behavior you're > seeing? Is the system unresponsive at power-up, or is it only after > attempting to boot that it "crashes"? Can you toggle in programs and run > them? > > I'll also add that regardless of what's going on with your EIS, you > *will* need an LTC to run V6 UNIX so you might think about getting one set > up anyway. > > - Josh > > >> thanks for confirming. I will turn my attention to the EIS board and set up a more detailed test/results asap. Bil From cruff at ruffspot.net Mon Feb 13 13:30:10 2017 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 12:30:10 -0700 Subject: Information Request: unidentified HP 9825T instructions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > My first thought, and it's probably wrong, is that these instrucitons > (which differ by one bit, so might be > setting/reseting something) are NOPs to the CPU, but are interpretted > by the memory mapping hardware in those > 9825s that have more than 64K or RAM and ROM total. This seems likely. According to your schematics, gate U47 detects the pattern 0701xx. This signal feeds into the U43c flipflop, which appears to latch the state of the low 4 bits of the MAD bus into register U42, which sets the state of the /ForceRAM (bit 3), /ForceROM (bit 2), /DiagRd (bit 1) and ALLROM (bit 0) signals. Thus, these two instructions appear to toggle the state of the /ForceROM signal. If I?ve wrapped my brain around the details it appears that 070113 deasserts the /ForceROM signal, and 070117 asserts it? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Feb 13 18:07:23 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 19:07:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Information Request: unidentified HP 9825T instructions Message-ID: <20170214000723.D9C0918C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > My first thought, and it's probably wrong Apparently not... :-) > these instrucitons (which differ by one bit, so might be > setting/reseting something) are NOPs to the CPU, but are interpretted > by the memory mapping hardware Ooh, very clever/cool. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Feb 13 18:14:45 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 19:14:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP 11 Line Time Clock (LW11L) M787 and EIS board, (KE11E) M7238 Message-ID: <20170214001445.400D918C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > (while installing the MMU and Stack Limit Register in my own 11/40) BTW, I think I found out why the MMU requires the SLR. The SLR is not operative in User mode. I haven't checked out the circuitry to see exactly what the interaction is, but it has to be something associated with that. > you *will* need an LTC to run V6 UNIX Actually, it will work with a KW11-P, too; those are actually more commmon than the KW11-L's, I've found. But as Guy pointed out, the DL11-W will do too - and those are _very_ common (since they were used in the 11/34's, etc). Noel From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 13:35:03 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 19:35:03 +0000 Subject: Information Request: unidentified HP 9825T instructions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 7:30 PM, Craig Ruff wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> My first thought, and it's probably wrong, is that these instrucitons >> (which differ by one bit, so might be >> setting/reseting something) are NOPs to the CPU, but are interpretted >> by the memory mapping hardware in those >> 9825s that have more than 64K or RAM and ROM total. > > This seems likely. According to your schematics, gate U47 detects the pattern 0701xx. > This signal feeds into the U43c flipflop, which appears to latch the state of the low 4 bits > of the MAD bus into register U42, which sets the state of the /ForceRAM (bit 3), > /ForceROM (bit 2), /DiagRd (bit 1) and ALLROM (bit 0) signals. Thus, these two > instructions appear to toggle the state of the /ForceROM signal. > > If I?ve wrapped my brain around the details it appears that 070113 deasserts the > /ForceROM signal, and 070117 asserts it? That seems possible, yes. Having other hardware decode instructions that appear as NOPs to the main processor is not uncommon in HP machines. -tony > > > From jbader at neteffects.com Mon Feb 13 14:43:17 2017 From: jbader at neteffects.com (Jack Bader) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 20:43:17 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B2 UNIX System V User Reference Manual for sale Message-ID: AT&T 3B2 Computer UNIX System V User Reference Manual Original red hardcover, 3-ring binder, 9"x9"x2" Published July 1985 Excellent condition, never used Best offer plus $10 for shipping. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 17:03:34 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 18:03:34 -0500 Subject: DATAC 1000 Message-ID: Looking for a DATAC 1000 if anyone has one for sale or trade (or a site with pictures). This is a Philadelphia USA origin 6502 trainer. I am interested in it for the local history. Thanks Bill From earl at retrobits.com Mon Feb 13 17:45:44 2017 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 15:45:44 -0800 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards Message-ID: Hi there, I've got a couple of DEC QBUS boards (including a quad SLU) for which configuration is set by wire-wrap jumpers. I don't have a wire-wrap tool, and have found that trying this by hand without one is not workable. Has anyone come up with a clever way to permit reconfiguration of these boards without semi-permanent changes? Or, alternatively, what wire-wrap tool would you recommend? Thanks! - Earl From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 17:59:18 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 18:59:18 -0500 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > Hi there, > > I've got a couple of DEC QBUS boards (including a quad SLU) for which > configuration is set by wire-wrap jumpers. I don't have a wire-wrap tool, > and have found that trying this by hand without one is not workable. > > Has anyone come up with a clever way to permit reconfiguration of these > boards without semi-permanent changes? Or, alternatively, what wire-wrap > tool would you recommend? > > Thanks! > > - Earl > alligator clips? From earl at retrobits.com Mon Feb 13 18:04:43 2017 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:04:43 -0800 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 3:59 PM, william degnan wrote: > > alligator clips? > ?At least in my case, the spacing seemed too tight for alligator clips. There are components surrounding the wire-wrap posts, so the clips don't lay down well. Also, you can't have the clips pointing up, because then there isn't enough top-clearance for the QBUS board in the slot above.? Maybe there's another type of clip I could use, or a different technique? From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Feb 13 18:09:29 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 00:09:29 +0000 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctech [cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Earl Evans [earl at retrobits.com] Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards Hi there, I've got a couple of DEC QBUS boards (including a quad SLU) for which configuration is set by wire-wrap jumpers. I don't have a wire-wrap tool, and have found that trying this by hand without one is not workable. Has anyone come up with a clever way to permit reconfiguration of these boards without semi-permanent changes? Or, alternatively, what wire-wrap tool would you recommend? ______________________________________________ I have a hlf dozen wirewrap tools laying around. I have found little if any difference in them. Amazon has them for $10 to about $30 dollars. If it matches the size wire your using the Radio Shack works fine for me. bill From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 13 18:17:00 2017 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 00:17:00 +0000 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58A24C7C.3080901@ntlworld.com> On 14/02/17 00:04, Earl Evans wrote: > On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 3:59 PM, william degnan > wrote: > >> alligator clips? >> > ?At least in my case, the spacing seemed too tight for alligator clips. > There are components surrounding the wire-wrap posts, so the clips don't > lay down well. Also, you can't have the clips pointing up, because then > there isn't enough top-clearance for the QBUS board in the slot above.? > > Maybe there's another type of clip I could use, or a different technique? > Hand operated wirewrap tools seem to be ~ ?10 new on ebay in the UK. I assume they are similarly cheap in the US. If you try some alternative technique don't you risk ending up with stray wires in powered equipment? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From js at cimmeri.com Mon Feb 13 18:22:04 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 19:22:04 -0500 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58A24DAC.8040705@cimmeri.com> On 2/13/2017 7:04 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 3:59 PM, william degnan > wrote: > >> alligator clips? >> > ?At least in my case, the spacing seemed too tight for alligator clips. > There are components surrounding the wire-wrap posts, so the clips don't > lay down well. Also, you can't have the clips pointing up, because then > there isn't enough top-clearance for the QBUS board in the slot above.? > > Maybe there's another type of clip I could use, or a different technique? No, you don't use clips. You wire wrap them, as they are designed for. What exactly is the challenge with doing that? From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Feb 13 18:43:59 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:43:59 -0800 Subject: Information Request: unidentified HP 9825T instructions In-Reply-To: References: <20170214000723.D9C0918C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I agree quite a unique bit of code On Feb 13, 2017 4:07 PM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > From: Tony Duell > My first thought, and it's probably wrong Apparently not... :-) > these instrucitons (which differ by one bit, so might be > setting/reseting something) are NOPs to the CPU, but are interpretted > by the memory mapping hardware Ooh, very clever/cool. Noel From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Feb 13 19:29:46 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 20:29:46 -0500 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 02/13/2017 06:45 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > Hi there, > > I've got a couple of DEC QBUS boards (including a quad SLU) for which > configuration is set by wire-wrap jumpers. I don't have a wire-wrap tool, > and have found that trying this by hand without one is not workable. > > Has anyone come up with a clever way to permit reconfiguration of these > boards without semi-permanent changes? Or, alternatively, what wire-wrap > tool would you recommend? > > Thanks! > > - Earl > I use wirewrap as the spacing and distance between boards does not permit anything else. OK too makes a good simple hand tool and more elaborate ones as needed. Its worth the tool even if you go with the simple hand tool that looks sorta like a screwdriver. Keep in mind with Qbus unless you insert grant cards you can't double space boards. I only have 8 Qbus systems from LSI-11 through MicroVAX. Allison From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Feb 13 19:32:15 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 20:32:15 -0500 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56D581F6-6083-4EC2-A507-5FFEE4215922@comcast.net> > On Feb 13, 2017, at 8:29 PM, allison wrote: > > ... > I use wirewrap as the spacing and distance between boards does not > permit anything else. > OK too makes a good simple hand tool and more elaborate ones as needed. I have a hand tool from OK Tools (looks a bit like a coil alignment tool). It works fine. It also has a wire strip blade built into the handle, which is by far the best tool for stripping wrap wire. (Typical wire strippers don't handle wire that thin, and the tip of a soldering iron won't do the job either because the insulation is heat resistant.) paul From jsw at ieee.org Mon Feb 13 20:33:47 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 20:33:47 -0600 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7AFC2964-72C6-400D-9587-CB8BB2B79174@ieee.org> > On Feb 13, 2017, at 7:29 PM, allison wrote: > > On 02/13/2017 06:45 PM, Earl Evans wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> I've got a couple of DEC QBUS boards (including a quad SLU) for which >> configuration is set by wire-wrap jumpers. I don't have a wire-wrap tool, >> and have found that trying this by hand without one is not workable. >> >> Has anyone come up with a clever way to permit reconfiguration of these >> boards without semi-permanent changes? Or, alternatively, what wire-wrap >> tool would you recommend? >> >> Thanks! >> >> - Earl >> > > I use wirewrap as the spacing and distance between boards does not > permit anything else. > OK too makes a good simple hand tool and more elaborate ones as needed. > Its worth the > tool even if you go with the simple hand tool that looks sorta like a > screwdriver. > > Keep in mind with Qbus unless you insert grant cards you can't double > space boards. > > I only have 8 Qbus systems from LSI-11 through MicroVAX. > > Allison There are two common types of wirewrap - Regular and Modified. The ?modified? wirewrap tool leaves an insulated turn at the start of the wrap. It?s my preference when wire-wrapping 30 gauge or if you run the wires off board. Suggest 24 or 26 gauge for the latter. Make sure you match the wire and tool. Jerry From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Feb 13 20:46:26 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 18:46:26 -0800 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/13/2017 4:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > ________________________________________ > From: cctech [cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Earl Evans [earl at retrobits.com] > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:45 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards > > Hi there, > > I've got a couple of DEC QBUS boards (including a quad SLU) for which > configuration is set by wire-wrap jumpers. I don't have a wire-wrap tool, > and have found that trying this by hand without one is not workable. > > Has anyone come up with a clever way to permit reconfiguration of these > boards without semi-permanent changes? Or, alternatively, what wire-wrap > tool would you recommend? > > ______________________________________________ > > I have a hlf dozen wirewrap tools laying around. I have found little if any > difference in them. Amazon has them for $10 to about $30 dollars. If it > matches the size wire your using the Radio Shack works fine for me. > > bill > > Takes a bit of time for these, but I'd try for one recommended by Bill or one of these: New-OEM-Wire-Wrap-Strip-Unwrap-Tool-Hand-Manual-Winding-Rods-For-WSU-30M-AWG-30-/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/262798514618 30 gauge, so if you want to use the stripper, that size wire will be needed. They used to have them with semi safe to use strippers for other sizes. If you are really worried, get NoNics strippers if you can find them. Thanks Jim From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 13 21:33:21 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 03:33:21 +0000 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: You can use the solderless board prototype board jumpers, sold at Frys and elsewhere. They come in male and female, I assume (not being a dec guy) that these are standard square wire wrap posts... ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of william degnan Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 3:59 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > Hi there, > > I've got a couple of DEC QBUS boards (including a quad SLU) for which > configuration is set by wire-wrap jumpers. I don't have a wire-wrap tool, > and have found that trying this by hand without one is not workable. > > Has anyone come up with a clever way to permit reconfiguration of these > boards without semi-permanent changes? Or, alternatively, what wire-wrap > tool would you recommend? > > Thanks! > > - Earl > alligator clips? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 14 01:24:36 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 23:24:36 -0800 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: <56D581F6-6083-4EC2-A507-5FFEE4215922@comcast.net> References: <56D581F6-6083-4EC2-A507-5FFEE4215922@comcast.net> Message-ID: <24154912-9386-f53f-37fb-537e4c63ec96@sydex.com> On 02/13/2017 05:32 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I have a hand tool from OK Tools (looks a bit like a coil alignment > tool). It works fine. It also has a wire strip blade built into > the handle, which is by far the best tool for stripping wrap wire. > (Typical wire strippers don't handle wire that thin, and the tip of > a soldering iron won't do the job either because the insulation is > heat resistant.) Way back when Fry's had just opened in Sunnyvale, I was told about a tool made by Augat, called "Micro Strip". I've seen them with the Utica and Tyco brands also. It's sold by "Micro Strip" now. http://micro-strip.com/awg-fine-wire.html You can't go wrong with this tool--in all the years I've used it, I have never nicked an AWG 30 wire. It also does a bang-up job with stripping fiber jackets. When wire-wrapping, it has a built-in adjustable stop so that you always strip off a precise amount of insulation. I can't recommend it highly enough. --Chuck From other at oryx.us Tue Feb 14 01:50:16 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 01:50:16 -0600 Subject: AT&T 3B2 UNIX System V User Reference Manual for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99f8113c-8102-38c1-558d-bf31eed3f7ec@oryx.us> Seth, Is this something you might need/want that could assist you moving forward with your 3b2 emulation project? Jerry On 02/13/17 02:43 PM, Jack Bader wrote: > AT&T 3B2 Computer UNIX System V User Reference Manual > > Original red hardcover, 3-ring binder, 9"x9"x2" Published July 1985 > > Excellent condition, never used > > Best offer plus $10 for shipping. > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Feb 14 02:48:57 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 09:48:57 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20170214084856.GY4154@Update.UU.SE> Hi Philipp I'm interested. How much did a board from the previous batch cost? And will that be any indication of what the new boards price? Thank you, Pontus On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 04:00:26PM +0100, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > it has taken a while but I'm now actively planning to shift out another > batch of OmniUSB boards. The last batch is sold out for a long time and I've > been asked for more from time to time. > > As some of you might remember, it's a cool device to connect your > pdp8/f/a/m/e to the modern world using lightning fast USB. > > The originial board has it's website here: > > http://pdp8.hachti.de/projects/omni_usb/ > > The new board will do the same, perhaps even more. > > - the USB connector will be replaced by a mini (NOT micro!!) USB connector. > - The connector position and cable routing will be improved. > - The board will be shorter. But it will come by default with a laser cut > acrylic extension that makes it full size again. > > There will be at least those options to buy: > > - Kit (board + all parts) > - Kit+ (board + all parts, SMT already assembled) > > Possible: > - complete version - Everything soldered and tested. > - discount for omitting acrylic extender > > I cannot guarantee that I can deliver fully assembled boards (regulations) > and would be able to do that only if there's a reasonable number of > interested buyers. > > If have set up a doodle poll to get a realistic picture of the interest in > the board/kit/device: > > http://doodle.com/poll/d7y524mvyfezqp9w > > PLEASE take the minute and fill in your name (ideally that I can recognise > you) and check the options which most precisely match your demands. > > PLEASE be as honest as possible as I will base my decisions IF and for which > PRICE I can run the show. > > Thank you!!! > > Kind regards > > Philipp :-) > > > > > > > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 02:57:17 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 08:57:17 +0000 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: <56D581F6-6083-4EC2-A507-5FFEE4215922@comcast.net> References: <56D581F6-6083-4EC2-A507-5FFEE4215922@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 1:32 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > I have a hand tool from OK Tools (looks a bit like a coil alignment tool). Ditto. Wrap one end, unwrap the other. I've never bothered to get a more advanced wire wrap tool. I even made a couple of DEC backplanes using it. > It works fine. It also has a wire strip blade built into the handle, which is > by far the best tool for stripping wrap wire. (Typical wire strippers don't > handle wire that thin, and the tip of a soldering iron won't do the job either > because the insulation is heat resistant.) But I will disagree with you there. The best tool in my experience is a hand rotary wire stripper (which spins a pair of blades around the wire, doing a very clean cut through the insulation. A close second is the little hand stripper made by CK tools, designed for wire wrap wire. Incidentally, since the insulation is heat-resistant and the wire takes solder very easily, I find wire wrap wire to be the best thing (soldered in place) to repair or modify PCBs. -tony From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Feb 14 03:48:26 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 10:48:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Feb 2017, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > - the USB connector will be replaced by a mini (NOT micro!!) USB connector. What's wrong with USB-B? I consider both Mini and Micro as not mechanically reliable, i.e. I fear that the cable will unplug itself or the mechanical strain will break the leads in the plug (I have too many Mini and Micro cables that suffer from this) or rip off the SMD pins from the copper traces (also very common in my experience). I don't want to pull out a fully equipped pdp8 of the rack and open it just to reinsert the cable. ;-) Christian From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Feb 14 06:32:49 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 07:32:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards Message-ID: <20170214123249.3323C18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > I find wire wrap wire to be the best thing (soldered in place) to > repair or modify PCBs. That's what DEC used for ECO's. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 06:42:01 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 07:42:01 -0500 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: <20170214123249.3323C18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170214123249.3323C18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: For the record I was kidding about the alligator clips. My meaning is that it's delicate work. Bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Feb 14 06:43:07 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 12:43:07 +0000 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: <20170214123249.3323C18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170214123249.3323C18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa [jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:32 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards > From: Tony Duell > I find wire wrap wire to be the best thing (soldered in place) to > repair or modify PCBs. That's what DEC used for ECO's. Noel I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me too it. :-) bill From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Feb 13 18:45:56 2017 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 00:45:56 +0000 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <1e7710cb02aa03e2d38c0845fb3a6fc5@triadic.us> References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> <1e7710cb02aa03e2d38c0845fb3a6fc5@triadic.us> Message-ID: <31ce1aa9-4a3f-e09c-4951-031addd5dd17@philpem.me.uk> On 13/02/17 07:58, alexmcwhirter at triadic.us wrote: > On 2017-02-12 07:59, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> On 09/02/17 20:06, Mark G Thomas wrote: >>> http://files.markgthomas.com/dl/sunkey/ >>> >>> I thought maybe having a picture would help in finding the correct key. >> >> A little part of me wants to get hold of one of these keys and the >> matching lock, match it to a key blank and measure the bitting... >> >> Cheers, > > Am i wrong in thinking all sun keys are identical up until the E25K? > Like i said earlier, my V890 key works in all my circa ~1990 sun gear. > These keys are pretty easy to find on ebay (in the US anyways). > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-Fire-V880-Server-Bezel-Key-/272532177241?hash=item3f742f0159:g:8mgAAOSw5cNYhgUb > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUN-MICROSYSTEMS-KEYS-350-1651-01-/111613413055?hash=item19fcad86bf:m:mCTY6wGdWH6b9WiORB0DrhA 330-1651. Well there you have it (just mis-listed as 350-1651). I'm not about to pay $60 shipping on a pair of keys though :) Maybe someone with a key and a set of callipers can match up a blank at Home Depot and measure it up :P Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 07:17:24 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:17:24 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> On 02/13/2017 05:34 PM, W2HX wrote: > Thanks for doing this project and I have signed up! Thanks! The list already looks very good. I'll probably make 50 boards this time! > Curious why mini > usb and why the exclamation points regarding "NOT micro?" Micro is so > common. I don't like micro. That's all. The plugs are ugly. And look delicate. > I don?t > think I've seen a device made in the last several years with a mini. My Canon 5D III has mini. My USBlink-board has mini. I have a box full of SMD usb mini connectors (oh, another reason). Kind regards Philipp From ams at gnu.org Tue Feb 14 07:27:58 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 08:27:58 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> (message from Philipp Hachtmann on Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:17:24 +0100) References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: FWIW, Mini-B connectors are on their way out, nor USB OTG compliant. Though agreed that they are flimsy... Why not just a type A or something? Easy, big, and robust. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 14 08:43:06 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 09:43:06 -0500 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: <20170214123249.3323C18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170214123249.3323C18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <21E3604D-CE56-4466-98F7-169E8F4F2DA3@comcast.net> > On Feb 14, 2017, at 7:32 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Tony Duell > >> I find wire wrap wire to be the best thing (soldered in place) to >> repair or modify PCBs. > > That's what DEC used for ECO's. My experience is that people still do so today. Soldered in place, and held along the way by small drops of superglue. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 09:02:55 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 10:02:55 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > FWIW, Mini-B connectors are on their way out, nor USB OTG compliant. > Though agreed that they are flimsy... Why not just a type A or > something? Easy, big, and robust. This is a peripheral. USB OTG doesn't apply, and USB-A would be "inappropriate". Pretend this is an inkjet printer. What plug would you expect to find on that? I don't _mind_ Mini (I have a number of devices and cables that are mini) and it _is_ more robust than Micro (I have seen plenty of phones and tablets with broken micro plugs). I have a suggestion... put 4 vias on 0.1" spacing next to the micro connector so we could, for example, add a chassis-friendly exit cable of our own purchase/manufacture if we choose, to have a nice fat USB-B on the outside of the case. https://newnex.com/images/UHR1-B-0005Blarge.jpg -ethan From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Feb 14 09:21:55 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 07:21:55 -0800 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Message-ID: That is a very nice and robust part you linked to. Looks perfect ________________________________ From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Feb 14, 2017 10:03 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > FWIW, Mini-B connectors are on their way out, nor USB OTG compliant. > Though agreed that they are flimsy... Why not just a type A or > something? Easy, big, and robust. This is a peripheral. USB OTG doesn't apply, and USB-A would be "inappropriate". Pretend this is an inkjet printer. What plug would you expect to find on that? I don't _mind_ Mini (I have a number of devices and cables that are mini) and it _is_ more robust than Micro (I have seen plenty of phones and tablets with broken micro plugs). I have a suggestion... put 4 vias on 0.1" spacing next to the micro connector so we could, for example, add a chassis-friendly exit cable of our own purchase/manufacture if we choose, to have a nice fat USB-B on the outside of the case. https://newnex.com/images/UHR1-B-0005Blarge.jpg -ethan From ams at gnu.org Tue Feb 14 09:22:57 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 10:22:57 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: (message from Ethan Dicks on Tue, 14 Feb 2017 10:02:55 -0500) References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: This is a peripheral. USB OTG doesn't apply, and USB-A would be "inappropriate". Pretend this is an inkjet printer. What plug would you expect to find on that? A type B plug. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 00:24:37 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 23:24:37 -0700 Subject: Information Request: unidentified HP 9825T instructions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > That seems possible, yes. > > Having other hardware decode instructions that appear as NOPs to the main > processor is not uncommon in HP machines. > And it's even common in HP machines for such instructions to be used for ROM bank switching. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 14 01:06:30 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 07:06:30 +0000 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: That OK tool works great, and you can see it has the wire stripper in the handle. One end is the unwrap, put it on the post and twist counter clockwise. Clockwise is the wrap direction. You strip 1 1/2 inch, shove the wire into the notch on the wrap end, place on post and twist. ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of jim stephens Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards On 2/13/2017 4:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > ________________________________________ > From: cctech [cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Earl Evans [earl at retrobits.com] > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:45 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards > > Hi there, > > I've got a couple of DEC QBUS boards (including a quad SLU) for which > configuration is set by wire-wrap jumpers. I don't have a wire-wrap tool, > and have found that trying this by hand without one is not workable. > > Has anyone come up with a clever way to permit reconfiguration of these > boards without semi-permanent changes? Or, alternatively, what wire-wrap > tool would you recommend? > > ______________________________________________ > > I have a hlf dozen wirewrap tools laying around. I have found little if any > difference in them. Amazon has them for $10 to about $30 dollars. If it > matches the size wire your using the Radio Shack works fine for me. > > bill > > Takes a bit of time for these, but I'd try for one recommended by Bill or one of these: New-OEM-Wire-Wrap-Strip-Unwrap-Tool-Hand-Manual-Winding-Rods-For-WSU-30M-AWG-30-/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/262798514618 [http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkz0FhjoHWFieuaD2tEr4ZA.jpg] New OEM Wire Wrap Strip Unwrap Tool Hand Manual Winding Rods For WSU-30M AWG 30 www.ebay.com New OEM Wire Wrap Strip Unwrap Tool Hand Manual Winding Rods For WSU-30M AWG 30 in Business & Industrial, Electrical & Test Equipment, Connectors, Switches & Wire, Wire & Cable, Hookup & Lead Wire | eBay 30 gauge, so if you want to use the stripper, that size wire will be needed. They used to have them with semi safe to use strippers for other sizes. If you are really worried, get NoNics strippers if you can find them. Thanks Jim From Michael at jongleur.co.uk Mon Feb 13 18:03:46 2017 From: Michael at jongleur.co.uk (Michael Mulhern) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 00:03:46 +0000 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: F2F 1 pin jumper cables? Michael. william degnan wrote: > > > alligator clips? > -- *Blog: RetroRetrospective ? Fun today with yesterday's gear??.. * *Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host) From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 10:09:55 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:09:55 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: > This is a peripheral. USB OTG doesn't apply, and USB-A would be > "inappropriate". Pretend this is an inkjet printer. What plug would > you expect to find on that? Haha :-) It is not an inkject printer! But I actually have written a (very limited) HPGL interpreter which controls a Calcomp 565/563 plotter. So it's -- actually! -- more a plotter. And even a plotter would have an USB B something. Oh, wait...! If it was a Zuse Z64 Graphomat which worked offline reading papertape, the plotter would probably need an USB host interface (A receptable) where I can put my stick with the HPGL data ;-) ;-) > I don't _mind_ Mini (I have a number of devices and cables that are > mini) and it _is_ more robust than Micro (I have seen plenty of phones > and tablets with broken micro plugs). Ok, micro is out of discussion. It won't be applied. > I have a suggestion... put 4 vias on 0.1" spacing next to the micro > connector so we could, for example, add a chassis-friendly exit cable > of our own purchase/manufacture if we choose, to have a nice fat USB-B > on the outside of the case. > https://newnex.com/images/UHR1-B-0005Blarge.jpg Ha, that's a nice idea. I'll plan in a white 90? pinhead connector - only the footprint, of course. Philipp From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 14 10:12:59 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 08:12:59 -0800 Subject: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper Message-ID: <9a63e141-f664-61ce-eede-662b036f6600@sydex.com> Grace Hopper (if you've ever followed CODASYL or the COBOL language was a very sharp lady who's long had my admiration. Kudos to Yale! http://news.yale.edu/2017/02/11/yale-change-calhoun-college-s-name-honor-grace-murray-hopper-0 --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 10:15:44 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 11:15:44 -0500 Subject: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper In-Reply-To: <9a63e141-f664-61ce-eede-662b036f6600@sydex.com> References: <9a63e141-f664-61ce-eede-662b036f6600@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Grace Hopper (if you've ever followed CODASYL or the COBOL language was > a very sharp lady who's long had my admiration. Kudos to Yale! > > http://news.yale.edu/2017/02/11/yale-change-calhoun- > college-s-name-honor-grace-murray-hopper-0 > > --Chuck > that's fine, but the reasoning was totally political and narrow minded. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Feb 14 10:25:27 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 10:25:27 -0600 Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58A32F77.10501@pico-systems.com> If the connections you want to make are on 0.1" spacing, there are jumper shunts that will short adjacent posts. These are little plastic blocks with metal springy fingers inside. You can probably find some on old PC components. If you need to short posts that are more than 0.1" apart, then they won't work. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Feb 14 10:28:24 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 10:28:24 -0600 Subject: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper In-Reply-To: <9a63e141-f664-61ce-eede-662b036f6600@sydex.com> References: <9a63e141-f664-61ce-eede-662b036f6600@sydex.com> Message-ID: <58A33028.8020404@pico-systems.com> On 02/14/2017 10:12 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Grace Hopper (if you've ever followed CODASYL or the COBOL language was > a very sharp lady who's long had my admiration. Kudos to Yale! > > http://news.yale.edu/2017/02/11/yale-change-calhoun-college-s-name-honor-grace-murray-hopper-0 > > COOL!!! There are some interviews with her that are QUITE good to listen to. Should be available on YouTube or whatever. She certainly had the LONG view on computing. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 14 10:43:51 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 08:43:51 -0800 Subject: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper In-Reply-To: References: <9a63e141-f664-61ce-eede-662b036f6600@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3047da4f-4176-c5fa-d5e8-ac0e1ba2d095@sydex.com> On 02/14/2017 08:15 AM, william degnan wrote: > that's fine, but the reasoning was totally political... So what isn't nowadays? In a couple of years, nobody will even remember that Geraldo didn't like it. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 14 10:50:01 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 08:50:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <31ce1aa9-4a3f-e09c-4951-031addd5dd17@philpem.me.uk> References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> <1e7710cb02aa03e2d38c0845fb3a6fc5@triadic.us> <31ce1aa9-4a3f-e09c-4951-031addd5dd17@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > Maybe someone with a key and a set of callipers can match up a blank at > Home Depot and measure it up :P NO. Try a LOCKSMITH. Home Depot does not have a selection of keys. They have some car keys, some padlock keys (that MIGHT match), and TWO house keys (Schlage SC1 and Kwikset KW1, although they have more than a hundred different novelty heads on those) They are no good, if you want the third, fourth, or fifth most common housekey! Take a key to a locksmith and get a copy, to peddle to one of those seeking that key. Even if your locksmith is so curmudgeonly that he won't tell you anything, Note the numbers stamped on the blank. It is trivially easy to measure the depths of the cuts, and with the "depth and spacing" standards for that blank, you can guess them from the picture. We had no difficulty on this list decoding the DEC XX2247 key. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 10:54:14 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:54:14 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <20170214084856.GY4154@Update.UU.SE> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <20170214084856.GY4154@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Hi, > I'm interested. How much did a board from the previous batch cost? Was different. I first made a poll and sold a batch of boards in my online shop for a certain price. It was somewhere about 105 EUR without VAT. After I received the payment, I made the boards and delivered them (I announced exactly that procedere!!). Later, as a few boards were left, I increased the price up to nearly EUR 200. I did it like with kickstarter - the people who trusted and funded got it cheaper. The whole thing barely covered the costs btw. > And > will that be any indication of what the new boards price? No, not really. But I already have some rough idea. The board will most probably be full size again. Reducing the size does seems not to offer enough benefit with respect to the hassle of adding enlargement afterwards. After my poll it looks as if there will be the following options: - Kit with full size board and SMT already soldered RoHS compliant. This will most probably go for short under EUR 100 (without VAT where it applies). I have to check with the assembly house. This time I try not to sit there and solder lead free SMD by hand for days. I like soldering SMT but that lead-free stuff and masses of boards can get quite annoying. The last boards were all hand soldered by me. One problem could be the gold fingers: My usual board house finally realized that their calculation tool was plain wrong when it charged me extra EUR 1,50 per board for the hard gold fingers. The board will be like the old ones but: * some unused (upper bit) IC positions removed * The diode stuff moved away from the edge (that was so stupid, sorry!) * The USB connector will be moved away from the edge, I will think about some holes to fix the cable using a strap. The USB will become mini USB. - Wonderful handle/set of handles to attach to the board. Probably made of milled wood, still thinking about it. This will be extremely expensive, I have no idea yet. Perhaps EUR 30 per "one piece" or set. And if someone really insists, I will manually complete and test a board. That would add another EUR 65 to the game. And perhaps an USB cable. If I continue to sell boards in that way, it will take not even 5 more years until it has paid for my Eagle 6 and 7 licenses.. Please continue to add to the doodle "calendar", if you are interested. Kind regards, Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 10:57:35 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:57:35 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: <5fb4ce0b-9d5d-4ee6-e660-21d68d3f8260@hachti.de> > What's wrong with USB-B? Too big. Does not properly fit into the DEC board spacing. The rest is just perfect. > I consider both Mini and Micro as not > mechanically reliable, i.e. I fear that the cable will unplug itself or > the mechanical strain will break the leads in the plug (I have too many > Mini and Micro cables that suffer from this) Oh, my DSLR has such a mini USB. And my USBlink board as well. I did never have problems. And I did not handle the cables with care. > or rip off the SMD pins > from the copper traces (also very common in my experience). That ahould be avoidable. I don't want > to pull out a fully equipped pdp8 of the rack and open it just to Strap it to the board. I will include holes for that purpose. By the way: Do you still like the old board? Kind regards Philipp From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 11:52:35 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 12:52:35 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> This is a peripheral. USB OTG doesn't apply, and USB-A would be >> "inappropriate". Pretend this is an inkjet printer. What plug would >> you expect to find on that? > > Haha :-) > It is not an inkject printer! Indeed, but as far as USB is concerned, there's more similarity than difference. > But I actually have written a (very limited) > HPGL interpreter which controls a Calcomp 565/563 plotter. So it's -- > actually! -- more a plotter. Interesting. >> I don't _mind_ Mini... > > Ok, micro is out of discussion. It won't be applied. > >> I have a suggestion... put 4 vias on 0.1" spacing... > > Ha, that's a nice idea. Thanks. > I'll plan in a white 90? pinhead connector - only the footprint, of course. Yes. Footprint only. And I love the idea of holes in the board to strap down the cable. As for the connector placement on the original board, I'm thinking it's fine for the -8/e/f/m, but it might be in an awkward place for an -8/a. What you have been describing for this new board sounds like it will be good for both (conveniently for me, I have both types of boxes...) Thanks! -ethan From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Feb 14 12:13:19 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 10:13:19 -0800 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Message-ID: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> Personally, i don't care about lead free solder. I am quite happy with lead. Is there a rohs requirement for small production, non profit, prototyping project? ________________________________ From: Philipp Hachtmann Sent: Feb 14, 2017 11:54 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Hi, > I'm interested. How much did a board from the previous batch cost? Was different. I first made a poll and sold a batch of boards in my online shop for a certain price. It was somewhere about 105 EUR without VAT. After I received the payment, I made the boards and delivered them (I announced exactly that procedere!!). Later, as a few boards were left, I increased the price up to nearly EUR 200. I did it like with kickstarter - the people who trusted and funded got it cheaper. The whole thing barely covered the costs btw. > And > will that be any indication of what the new boards price? No, not really. But I already have some rough idea. The board will most probably be full size again. Reducing the size does seems not to offer enough benefit with respect to the hassle of adding enlargement afterwards. After my poll it looks as if there will be the following options: - Kit with full size board and SMT already soldered RoHS compliant. This will most probably go for short under EUR 100 (without VAT where it applies). I have to check with the assembly house. This time I try not to sit there and solder lead free SMD by hand for days. I like soldering SMT but that lead-free stuff and masses of boards can get quite annoying. The last boards were all hand soldered by me. One problem could be the gold fingers: My usual board house finally realized that their calculation tool was plain wrong when it charged me extra EUR 1,50 per board for the hard gold fingers. The board will be like the old ones but: * some unused (upper bit) IC positions removed * The diode stuff moved away from the edge (that was so stupid, sorry!) * The USB connector will be moved away from the edge, I will think about some holes to fix the cable using a strap. The USB will become mini USB. - Wonderful handle/set of handles to attach to the board. Probably made of milled wood, still thinking about it. This will be extremely expensive, I have no idea yet. Perhaps EUR 30 per "one piece" or set. And if someone really insists, I will manually complete and test a board. That would add another EUR 65 to the game. And perhaps an USB cable. If I continue to sell boards in that way, it will take not even 5 more years until it has paid for my Eagle 6 and 7 licenses.. Please continue to add to the doodle "calendar", if you are interested. Kind regards, Philipp From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Feb 14 12:13:35 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 18:13:35 +0000 Subject: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper In-Reply-To: <9a63e141-f664-61ce-eede-662b036f6600@sydex.com> References: <9a63e141-f664-61ce-eede-662b036f6600@sydex.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:12 AM To: CCtalk Subject: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper Grace Hopper (if you've ever followed CODASYL or the COBOL language was a very sharp lady who's long had my admiration. Kudos to Yale! http://news.yale.edu/2017/02/11/yale-change-calhoun-college-s-name-honor-grace-murray-hopper-0 That's the second place named after her in just a couple of months. I wonder why all the sudden interest in her? Especially considering how hard academia is working to kill her greatest accomplishment. bill From other at oryx.us Tue Feb 14 12:40:27 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 12:40:27 -0600 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> <1e7710cb02aa03e2d38c0845fb3a6fc5@triadic.us> <31ce1aa9-4a3f-e09c-4951-031addd5dd17@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hello Fred, Thank you for the post. This is really a chicken vs egg issue here. Apparently, no one right now has a copy of this key. No one seems to even have a picture of the key. There have been a couple of pictures + eBay sales shared that show, what I would call newer keys. I label them newer keys because the keys shown have a purple plastic surround molded on to them. Does that mean they won't work? I don't know. The 1000e is a 1992 vintage box. If I recall correctly, Sun's purple era was early 2000's. Someone out there has a spare of the key I need. I feel confident that ultimately it will turn up sooner or later. Jerry On 02/14/17 10:50 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Maybe someone with a key and a set of callipers can match up a blank at >> Home Depot and measure it up :P > > NO. > Try a LOCKSMITH. > Home Depot does not have a selection of keys. They have some car keys, some > padlock keys (that MIGHT match), and TWO house keys (Schlage SC1 and Kwikset > KW1, although they have more than a hundred different novelty heads on those) > They are no good, if you want the third, fourth, or fifth most common housekey! > > Take a key to a locksmith and get a copy, to peddle to one of those seeking that > key. Even if your locksmith is so curmudgeonly that he won't tell you anything, > Note the numbers stamped on the blank. It is trivially easy to measure the > depths of the cuts, and with the "depth and spacing" standards for that blank, > you can guess them from the picture. > > We had no difficulty on this list decoding the DEC XX2247 key. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chrise at pobox.com Tue Feb 14 12:53:19 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 12:53:19 -0600 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20170214185319.GA30705@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (02/14/2017 at 10:02AM -0500), Ethan Dicks wrote: > > This is a peripheral. USB OTG doesn't apply, and USB-A would be > "inappropriate". Pretend this is an inkjet printer. What plug would > you expect to find on that? A Centronics-style 36-pin Amphenol. oh, sorry. -- Chris Elmquist From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 14 12:53:54 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 11:53:54 -0700 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: On 2/14/2017 6:27 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > FWIW, Mini-B connectors are on their way out, nor USB OTG compliant. > Though agreed that they are flimsy... Why not just a type A or > something? Easy, big, and robust. > Why not mini and regular? Ben. PS: Add a 45.5 baud serail port. Control everything with a 5 level TTY. :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 13:09:32 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:09:32 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 1:53 PM, ben wrote: > PS: Add a 45.5 baud serail port. Control everything with a 5 level TTY. :) I'm restoring a Model 19 teletype with a friend, so I happen to _need_ a 45.5 baud serial port that spits 5-level Baudot... -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 14 13:15:45 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 11:15:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> <1e7710cb02aa03e2d38c0845fb3a6fc5@triadic.us> <31ce1aa9-4a3f-e09c-4951-031addd5dd17@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Hello Fred, > Thank you for the post. > This is really a chicken vs egg issue here. > Apparently, no one right now has a copy of this key. > No one seems to even have a picture of the key. > There have been a couple of pictures + eBay sales shared that show, what I > would call newer keys. I label them newer keys because the keys shown have a > purple plastic surround molded on to them. > Does that mean they won't work? I don't know. The 1000e is a 1992 vintage > box. If I recall correctly, Sun's purple era was early 2000's. > Someone out there has a spare of the key I need. I feel confident that > ultimately it will turn up sooner or later. Yeah, it happens. can be real frustrating to wait The plastic "surround" on the bow started showing up on car ignition keys about 1970, and the same keyways were available with plastic ("rubber") or metal bow, so it is not necessarily incompatible. In the meantime, take a close look at the keyhole, and see if the milling (side grooves) seem to be the same as the one in the eBay ads. If so, then a locksmith might be able to match you up with a blank, and some could cut a key based on one of those pictures, iff they are willing. (not legal in some towns) Can you get the box open without the key? If so, then you can rig up jumper cables to bypass it. And, you should be able to physically remove the lock and take it to a locksmith. A locksmith can pick it open, and/or disassemble it and make a key. If not, take the whole machine to the locksmith to have them pick it open. They make it look easy. Those are not very high security, and should be relatively easy to pick. Or, buy a set of lockpicks on eBay, and use it to practice on. If at first, you don't succeed, use LESS pressure on your torsion tool. Periodically, stop, and listen carefully as you release it, to hear how many of the pins you had set. I hate to suggest drilling it out, since that is wasteful and should not be necessary -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 14 13:18:19 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 11:18:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <20170214185319.GA30705@n0jcf.net> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> <20170214185319.GA30705@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: >> This is a peripheral. USB OTG doesn't apply, and USB-A would be >> "inappropriate". Pretend this is an inkjet printer. What plug would >> you expect to find on that? On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, Chris Elmquist wrote: > A Centronics-style 36-pin Amphenol. > oh, sorry. ("blue-ribbon") A DB25 Howzbout a DE-9? Original style USB-B From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 13:27:06 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 19:27:06 +0000 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> References: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 6:13 PM, W2HX wrote: > Personally, i don't care about lead free solder. I am quite happy with lead. Is > there a rohs requirement for small production, non profit, prototyping project? Personally I _do_ care about lead free solder. I won't have it. The fact that part of this board comes pre-assembled with that horrible muck means I won't even consider buying one. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 14 13:45:51 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 11:45:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> Message-ID: >> Personally, i don't care about lead free solder. I am quite happy with lead. Is >> there a rohs requirement for small production, non profit, prototyping project? On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, Tony Duell wrote: > Personally I _do_ care about lead free solder. I won't have it. The > fact that part > of this board comes pre-assembled with that horrible muck means I won't > even consider buying one. I'm sure that it would be possible to special order an unsoldered one, if ARD actually wants a pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Feb 14 13:50:40 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 11:50:40 -0800 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Message-ID: Don't laugh http://w2hx.com/x/New%20Shack/0224151752b.jpg ________________________________ From: ben Sent: Feb 14, 2017 1:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! On 2/14/2017 6:27 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > FWIW, Mini-B connectors are on their way out, nor USB OTG compliant. > Though agreed that they are flimsy... Why not just a type A or > something? Easy, big, and robust. > Why not mini and regular? Ben. PS: Add a 45.5 baud serail port. Control everything with a 5 level TTY. :) From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 13:57:11 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 19:57:11 +0000 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 7:50 PM, W2HX wrote: > Don't laugh > > http://w2hx.com/x/New%20Shack/0224151752b.jpg Why should I laugh? They look beautiful. Incidentally, in those pictures of my PDP8/e that I posted the link to last week you can see a the corners of a couple of teleprinters in one of them. Both are Creeds. One is a Creed 7E (Goverend motor, I think currently set to 50 baud, but I could tweak the screw), the other a Creed 444 (with 75 baud gears, one day I must learn how to cut skew helical gears and make the 50 baud gearing for it). Both are, of course 5-level ITA2 machines -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Feb 14 14:43:25 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 15:43:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Message-ID: <20170214204325.02A3118C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > Personally I _do_ care about lead free solder. I won't have it. The > fact that part of this board comes pre-assembled with that horrible > muck means I won't even consider buying one. Gee, Tony, why don't you tell us what you _really_ think! :-) Noel From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Feb 14 15:10:27 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 13:10:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> <1e7710cb02aa03e2d38c0845fb3a6fc5@triadic.us> <31ce1aa9-4a3f-e09c-4951-031addd5dd17@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, Jerry Kemp wrote: > > Someone out there has a spare of the key I need. I feel confident that > ultimately it will turn up sooner or later. > Worse case, just take the lock switch out of the chassis and find a local locksmith that'll make you a key. It's a pretty common thing for them. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 15:14:21 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 22:14:21 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: <98710a34-5de6-c261-130e-300d806113a5@hachti.de> On 14.02.2017 20:09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm restoring a Model 19 teletype with a friend, so I happen to _need_ > a 45.5 baud serial port that spits 5-level Baudot... A model 19? I have some model 28 ASR and KSR (ASCII), and of course 33. And some Lorenz Lo15 which are license built model 15s. Like them a lot. Are you sure that it's 45.5 baud?!? The normal telex networks operates on 50 baud. 45.5 baud is for RTTY. A normal UART16550 can at least output 5N2 at 50 baud (yes, two stop bits!!) and of course 8n2 at 110 baud for the ASCII teletypes... I also could just hook up another teleprinter off my shelf of teleprinters. Two or three of my machines can be seen working in the movie Operation Valkyrie with Tom Cruise :-) But I lost track which ones in the room. Not all were working so the machines were moved without the covers several times. In the end they were sorted, of course... :-) From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Feb 14 15:18:36 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 13:18:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, ben wrote: > On 2/14/2017 6:27 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >> FWIW, Mini-B connectors are on their way out, nor USB OTG compliant. >> Though agreed that they are flimsy... Why not just a type A or >> something? Easy, big, and robust. >> > Why not mini and regular? > Ben. > PS: Add a 45.5 baud serail port. Control everything with a 5 level TTY. :) Dirty casual. 20mA current loop or nothing. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Feb 14 15:19:08 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 13:19:08 -0800 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. I meant that the comment about 45.5 was in jest but I actually have a plan to use a baudot to ascii converter box I have (also converts 60mA current loop to RS232) to allow me to connect my M28 TTYs to my PDP-8 and IMSAI. I think it will be much cooler than a 33 ASR. Of course the tape stuff won't be very useful :). Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 2:57 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 7:50 PM, W2HX wrote: > Don't laugh > > http://w2hx.com/x/New%20Shack/0224151752b.jpg Why should I laugh? They look beautiful. Incidentally, in those pictures of my PDP8/e that I posted the link to last week you can see a the corners of a couple of teleprinters in one of them. Both are Creeds. One is a Creed 7E (Goverend motor, I think currently set to 50 baud, but I could tweak the screw), the other a Creed 444 (with 75 baud gears, one day I must learn how to cut skew helical gears and make the 50 baud gearing for it). Both are, of course 5-level ITA2 machines -tony From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 15:21:41 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 22:21:41 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> References: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <03f10b6c-53f1-cfa8-0413-63b7f7ca7179@hachti.de> On 14.02.2017 19:13, W2HX wrote: > Personally, i don't care about lead free solder. I care about lead: It's essential! > Is there a rohs requirement for small production, non profit, prototyping project? Yes. At least here: You are not allowed to put anything on the market which is not RoHS conform. And "putting on the market", in german "inverkehrbringen" does explicitly not mean "large quantity, for profit etc." Even doing it for fun and giving the product away for free is not allowed. With that they want to catch the smart people who try to sell kits and assemble them for free afterwards. BTW the OmniUSB is NOT a non profit project!! I have to admit that! It gives me some funding for my Eagle license and workshop equipment. But not that much. And it does actually not cover a fraction of the development work. So it's for fun on the one hand but officially run by my small business on the other hand. The CPLD and board design are not secret... Kind regards Philipp :-) > ________________________________ > From: Philipp Hachtmann > Sent: Feb 14, 2017 11:54 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! > > Hi, > >> I'm interested. How much did a board from the previous batch cost? > Was different. I first made a poll and sold a batch of boards in my > online shop for a certain price. It was somewhere about 105 EUR without VAT. > After I received the payment, I made the boards and delivered them (I > announced exactly that procedere!!). > Later, as a few boards were left, I increased the price up to nearly EUR > 200. I did it like with kickstarter - the people who trusted and funded > got it cheaper. The whole thing barely covered the costs btw. > >> And >> will that be any indication of what the new boards price? > No, not really. But I already have some rough idea. > The board will most probably be full size again. Reducing the size does > seems not to offer enough benefit with respect to the hassle of adding > enlargement afterwards. > > After my poll it looks as if there will be the following options: > > - Kit with full size board and SMT already soldered RoHS compliant. > This will most probably go for short under EUR 100 (without VAT where it > applies). > > I have to check with the assembly house. This time I try not to sit > there and solder lead free SMD by hand for days. I like soldering SMT > but that lead-free stuff and masses of boards can get quite annoying. > The last boards were all hand soldered by me. > One problem could be the gold fingers: My usual board house finally > realized that their calculation tool was plain wrong when it charged me > extra EUR 1,50 per board for the hard gold fingers. > > The board will be like the old ones but: > > * some unused (upper bit) IC positions removed > * The diode stuff moved away from the edge (that was so stupid, sorry!) > * The USB connector will be moved away from the edge, I will think about > some holes to fix the cable using a strap. The USB will become mini USB. > > - Wonderful handle/set of handles to attach to the board. Probably made > of milled wood, still thinking about it. > This will be extremely expensive, I have no idea yet. Perhaps EUR 30 per > "one piece" or set. > > And if someone really insists, I will manually complete and test a > board. That would add another EUR 65 to the game. And perhaps an USB cable. > > If I continue to sell boards in that way, it will take not even 5 more > years until it has paid for my Eagle 6 and 7 licenses.. > > Please continue to add to the doodle "calendar", if you are interested. > > Kind regards, > > Philipp > -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 philipp at hachtmann.com www.tiegeldruck.de facebook.com/buchdruck UStdID DE 202668329 From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 15:22:42 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 22:22:42 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: <68061d60-10e0-69c2-330f-10b860dc4f62@hachti.de> On 14.02.2017 22:18, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, ben wrote: > >> On 2/14/2017 6:27 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >>> FWIW, Mini-B connectors are on their way out, nor USB OTG compliant. >>> Though agreed that they are flimsy... Why not just a type A or >>> something? Easy, big, and robust. >>> >> Why not mini and regular? >> Ben. >> PS: Add a 45.5 baud serail port. Control everything with a 5 level >> TTY. :) > > Dirty casual. 20mA current loop or nothing. The 45 baud machines do NOT run on 20mA. They usually run on 40mA :-) 20mA is the domain of model 28, 32, 33 etc. From RichA at livingcomputers.org Tue Feb 14 13:31:44 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 19:31:44 +0000 Subject: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper In-Reply-To: References: <9a63e141-f664-61ce-eede-662b036f6600@sydex.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEE112E0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: william degnan Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:16 AM > On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Grace Hopper (if you've ever followed CODASYL or the COBOL language was >> a very sharp lady who's long had my admiration. Kudos to Yale! >> http://news.yale.edu/2017/02/11/yale-change-calhoun- >> college-s-name-honor-grace-murray-hopper-0 > that's fine, but the reasoning was totally political and narrow minded. Since you've chosen to inject a political statement into the list, I will point out that the naming of Calhoun College (which at Yale means "dormitory + refectory + student workshops") has been a topic of debate for decades, since before I was at the Graduate School 40+ years ago. It wasn't a broadly noted discussion, because it was mostly internal to students living in the college. (I had an undergraduate friend who resided there.) The student body at Yale has become much more diverse in the last decade, so an old discussion took on more importance in the wider world. The decision to rename the college was taken after input from alumni as well as current students, beginning more than a year ago. Given the reputation of Yale, and of the Ivy League in general, as a bastion of conservatism, I was genuinely surprised with the overwhelming support for changing the name. Once that was decided, a long process of nominations was set in motion, comments solicited from the Yale community, and I am quite pleased with the decision to rename the college for a brilliant scholar who earned her master's and doctoral degrees in the Graduate School. So I dispute your characterization of the reasoning as narrow minded, or as political in the sense you most probably mean. Not everything that happens has to do with current events. Richard M. Alderson, III A. M. (Linguistics), Yale 1977 From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 15:27:57 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 22:27:57 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <869dc308-5400-7a4f-09f5-c60d00d22a3b@hachti.de> I! WANT! A! CREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Completely missing on my side. And.. I always mix up numbers. I have (several of each) Lorenz lo15 (model 15), Siemens t100, Siemens t68d, Lorenz lo133, model 33, and model 35 (the greatest teleprinter in history). I could swap something for a nice creed machine. On 14.02.2017 20:57, Tony Duell wrote: > On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 7:50 PM, W2HX wrote: >> Don't laugh >> >> http://w2hx.com/x/New%20Shack/0224151752b.jpg > > Why should I laugh? They look beautiful. > > Incidentally, in those pictures of my PDP8/e that I posted the > link to last week you can see a the corners of a couple of > teleprinters in one of them. Both are Creeds. One is a > Creed 7E (Goverend motor, I think currently set to 50 > baud, but I could tweak the screw), the other a Creed > 444 (with 75 baud gears, one day I must learn how to > cut skew helical gears and make the 50 baud gearing > for it). Both are, of course 5-level ITA2 machines > > -tony > -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 philipp at hachtmann.com www.tiegeldruck.de facebook.com/buchdruck UStdID DE 202668329 From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 15:31:14 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 22:31:14 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <4426d476-d130-d28e-c3b1-26dcb8adb081@hachti.de> On 14.02.2017 20:27, Tony Duell wrote: > Personally I _do_ care about lead free solder. I won't have it. I don't want it, too. > The > fact that part > of this board comes pre-assembled with that horrible muck means I won't > even consider buying one. You will get a fresh board, no problem! ENIG gold, no tin, nothing lead-free pre-applied - you can do what you like (and what lasts the best!). But I don't know yet how I will preprogram the CPLD. I am very sorry but it has really become illegal to use real 60/40 solder if you want to ship that stuff anywhere except the military. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 15:34:03 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:34:03 -0500 Subject: Current Loops and TTYs (was Re: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react!) Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 4:22 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >>> PS: Add a 45.5 baud serail port. Control everything with a 5 level >>> TTY. :) >> >> Dirty casual. 20mA current loop or nothing. > > The 45 baud machines do NOT run on 20mA. They usually run on 40mA :-) The M19 is 60mA at 100VDC... takes a bit to pull that relay. > 20mA is the domain of model 28, 32, 33 etc. Yep. That's all I have in my own pile... (33 and 35). -ethan From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Feb 14 15:36:26 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 13:36:26 -0800 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <68061d60-10e0-69c2-330f-10b860dc4f62@hachti.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> <68061d60-10e0-69c2-330f-10b860dc4f62@hachti.de> Message-ID: >The 45 baud machines do NOT run on 20mA. They usually run on 40mA :-) 20mA is the domain of model 28, 32, 33 etc. 14's, 15's 19's, 28s are generally 60mA 120VDC signaling. My 28s have speed select for 60 WPM (45.45 baud), 75 WPM (56.9 Baud) and 100 WPM (74.2 baud). 100 WPM is very fast. It is amazing these things don't fly apart! Lots of great videos on you tube of these things running. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 15:36:35 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:36:35 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <4426d476-d130-d28e-c3b1-26dcb8adb081@hachti.de> References: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> <4426d476-d130-d28e-c3b1-26dcb8adb081@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > But I don't know yet how I will preprogram the CPLD. What does it take to post-program the CPLD? SMT package aside, if it's possible to install some flying wires going off to a device programmer, which programmers would be able to load the CPLD in the first place? > I am very sorry but it has really become illegal to use real 60/40 solder if > you want to ship that stuff anywhere except the military. Yeah... it's a real PITA. I've had several devices fail due to mechanical impact (dropping) and RoHS solder fracturing. -ethan From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Feb 14 15:36:41 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 13:36:41 -0800 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <98710a34-5de6-c261-130e-300d806113a5@hachti.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> <98710a34-5de6-c261-130e-300d806113a5@hachti.de> Message-ID: >Two or three of my machines can be seen working in the movie Operation Valkyrie with Tom Cruise :-) Interesting! One of my TTYs was in The Good Shepherd From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 16:28:41 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 23:28:41 +0100 Subject: How I came to vintage computers Message-ID: <01983ab2-1714-9f4f-d022-16de000d1bff@hachti.de> Hey folks, after my OmniUSB-thread has gone down the teleprinter way... I'll start a new thread. Did you now how I came to vintage computers? How I became some kind of computer engineer? Probably not. It's so easy. Listen. Long story ahead. In 1999 I started to study computer science. Java and algorithms and all that clean stuff. One day in autumn 2000 I had that idea: I need a Fernschreiber (=teleprinter)! I had nothing to do with that stuff. And I did no know how it worked. I even did not remember having seen one. It was just that word in my head. So I bought my first Siemens T100 (still here in the house, two floors below me). It was a machine with strange connectors which made awful noise when connected to power. So I went to the library and found a good book from 1934. That told me how the teleprinter works. I then somehow soldered a simple interface to connect that beast to the parallel (!!!) port of my Linux server (the first hachti.de server was a mainboard and a harddisk in the corner of my student home where we had 10mbit LAN acess and fixed IP. I even did a DNS reverse mapping philipp.vorstrasse.uni-bremen.de for my IP). At that time all about programming I knew was Turbo Pascal, some Z80 machine language (not assembly language, I programmed that beast in hex) and a bit Java. I didn't even know much about Linux. The server back then had been setup by someone else who was in need of a server. So he used it as well. I used the parallel port because I had an idea how to control the pins. I knew that there was something ugly called serial port but I had not yet made the connection that this was EXACTLY what I would have needed. To program that thing I needed some software. So I went to the bookstore at noon. Will never forget that. Bought the O'Reilly Linux Kernel drivers book (the one with the horse) and started to write my first C program ever. It was a kernel module. The Kernel must have been Linux 2.2. It was frustrating. But after a decent 30 hour nonstop session and hundreds of reboots (haha, of my web and mail server which was also running X from time to time) I really had some bitbang code which made the teleprinter say what I wanted it to say. I soon realised that with a multitasking OS like Linux I had the choice of outputting correct data using busy wait in Kernel or outputting a mess when the system gets under load. So I learned THAT lesson. I decided that I needed something else. Because I had heard of other people working with something called PIC Microcontroller, I bought one and a programmer. And a breadboard. That evil 16f84 was sitting there on my desk, naked, and did - nothing. Getting the PIC up and running was pure horror. The hardest architecture I've ever mastered. Since then I know: PIC is a load of complete shit! In the end I failed to create a RS232 (had learned that in the meantime) to teleprinter converter but had the idea to hook up two teleprinters using modems. TelexPhone was born. The project (telexphone.net) was eventually kind of stolen a few years later and continued to something still in existence called i-telex over internet. That was never what I wanted because the V21 modems (hard to find!!) are bit transparent. That means that the teleprinters on both sides of the wire run as synchronous as with a real wire between them. Very cool. The TelexPhone used a 16f876 with a approx 2k cooperative multitasking system written entirely in assembly. It was somehow modular. I managed to hook in modules with private main loop and init parts by writing an impressive linker script which automated that. Hey, I was 21 and did all that on my own! Please do NOT laugh! In the meantime someone somewhere invented something called eBay. And because It's always good to have several different devices of the same type and even better to have several examples of each those different devices, I had an eBay search for "Lochstreifen" which means punched paper tape. Paper tape for teleprinter, of course. One day I found an offer "Honeywell H316 minicomputer" which sounded interesting. With paper tape. And no pictures. In Switzerland. A quick search (probably already google? I used altavista.digital.com before) told me that this could be an interesting toy. So I bought it for the incredible amount of SFr 450. Borrowed a car and went there. What I found was some messy stuff somewhere on an uninsulated attic in Switzerland. Very dirty. I nearly turned down the deal because it all looked so crappy. The seller admitted that he had kept the stuff in that open attic since beginning of the 1980s. I took it home. Had to drive TWICE from Bremen to Switzerland to get it all. And it was a lucky buy. After fiddling and cleaning around some weeks (never seen a minicomputer before!) and reading the manuals, I found out that the PSU had a slight problem which lead to unjustified shutdown. After I had solved that by pulling out one of the security circuit card from the PSU, it powered up the computer. And it magically worked instantly exactly as the manual told me. That was in 2004. The H316 has never since then failed a single time. Only issue are some contact issues with some memory cabling which may happen after moving the machine. Since then I have never had to switch a chip or a lamp or whatever. No single failure. Not one failed CPU or memory test (except when I stress the cable's card edge connector). It's so amazing that it became boring. Programming in FORTRAN IV? Read the manual, punch tape, use the compiler, linking loader and libraries as described in the manual - works. No secret shit. And The machine came with all that software as nice source code listing and binary paper tapes. While still wandering around on my Olympus of quality, I got a call by a teleprinter friend who asked me if I would take a pdp8 computer. I thought that bit of that infamous DEC mess could be a good counter example for my H316's unlimited quality and went to pick up the pdp8. The day ended with my yellow car completely stuffed with rusty pdp8/l, and lots of other stuff. It were three machines. The tape drives and racks were fubar and went to scrap. http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/haul/dscn0750_full.jpg http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/haul/dscn0751_full.jpg http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/haul/dscn2109_full.jpg That was the beginning of the end. It just happened. Later 8/e, lab8/e etc. And I had to admit that playing with Omnibus pdp8 is absolutely amazing! It's a great toy! I think the pdp8/e (not straight-8, 8/i, /s or whatever) is one of the greatest toys ever made. There are many games, it breaks regularly while still giving you a chance to be satisfied after fixing it. And it's so versatile! And digging through those blurry schematics is a game in its own right! For the Honeywell everything comes in high quality print, completely correct, no derivations and workarounds. With DEC it can be an adventure to get an overview over a hardware, its features, ECOs and FCOs and what else could happen. Someday I also made a pdp8 in an FPGA. That was during the time I wanted to be a chip designer. But the only place where I could to ASIC design (I did my diploma thesis about a video generator FPGA design) was closed down instead of hiring me. Thank you, Silicon Image! Currently I'm working for a Bosch/Denso joint venture doing Linux security for car multimedia systems. In my free time I have just started to construct a M?rklin model railroad digital decoder which I will try to sell commercially (the competition use closed source PIC stuff. I use GPLv3 AVR code). And I run a letterpress print shop with the biggest machine being over 5 metric tons. In the printshop there's also an 8/e. And I have inherited a forklift. Don't know why I wrote this... Just wanted to write it. The teleprinter discussion... It was the teleprinter discussion.... I never learned to get that paper... I just had the right toys. That's it for now :-) From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 16:33:39 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 23:33:39 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> <4426d476-d130-d28e-c3b1-26dcb8adb081@hachti.de> Message-ID: > What does it take to post-program the CPLD? SMT package aside, if > it's possible to install some flying wires going off to a device > programmer, which programmers would be able to load the CPLD in the > first place? The board has a programming header. So after soldering it's no problem. You need a JTAG programming adapter that can be used by the Xilinx tools (impact). I use this one: https://shop.trenz-electronic.de/en/24624-JTAG-HS2-Programming-Cable Perhaps you can borrow one. The tools can be downloaded on the Xilinx website. Then you are also able to alter the code and make the ting do other stuff for you. From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 16:34:07 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 23:34:07 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> <98710a34-5de6-c261-130e-300d806113a5@hachti.de> Message-ID: <1281476e-9446-bf5c-88f4-a835bdf0d42f@hachti.de> On 14.02.2017 22:36, W2HX wrote: >> Two or three of my machines can be seen working in the movie Operation Valkyrie with Tom Cruise :-) > > Interesting! One of my TTYs was in The Good Shepherd Wow :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 16:44:23 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:44:23 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> <4426d476-d130-d28e-c3b1-26dcb8adb081@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> What does it take to post-program the CPLD? > > The board has a programming header. So after soldering it's no problem. Perfect. > You need a JTAG programming adapter that can be used by the Xilinx tools > (impact). > I use this one: > https://shop.trenz-electronic.de/en/24624-JTAG-HS2-Programming-Cable I have an older JTAG adapter that has, IIRC, a 2x5 header plug > Perhaps you can borrow one. The tools can be downloaded on the Xilinx > website. Then you are also able to alter the code and make the ting do other > stuff for you. Awesome. I'm definitely interested in the least amount of pre-assembly. I've been burning PALs and GALs and EPROMs for over 30 years. I own several full-sized programmers, I just wasn't sure what adapter this CPLD was happy with. Thanks! -ethan From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 14 16:46:25 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 23:46:25 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> <4426d476-d130-d28e-c3b1-26dcb8adb081@hachti.de> Message-ID: <10418391-2eed-11a4-a69d-43d066e8d971@hachti.de> On 14.02.2017 23:44, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have an older JTAG adapter that has, IIRC, a 2x5 header plug If you get it working with Xilinx SW, then it's good. You'll need an adapter... From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Feb 14 16:51:01 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 22:51:01 +0000 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of W2HX [w2hx at w2hx.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 4:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Thanks. I meant that the comment about 45.5 was in jest but I actually have a plan to use a baudot to ascii converter box I have (also converts 60mA current loop to RS232) to allow me to connect my M28 TTYs to my PDP-8 and IMSAI. I think it will be much cooler than a 33 ASR. Of course the tape stuff won't be very useful :). Eugene W2HX _____________________________________________ My first hardcopy printer for the TRS-80 was a Lorenz LO15 connected thru a homebrew interface on the cassette port. I later upgraded to a Portacom-110 on the RS-232 port. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 14 16:52:32 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:52:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> <1e7710cb02aa03e2d38c0845fb3a6fc5@triadic.us> <31ce1aa9-4a3f-e09c-4951-031addd5dd17@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, geneb wrote: > Worse case, just take the lock switch out of the chassis and find a local > locksmith that'll make you a key. It's a pretty common thing for them. A properly designed lock can not be removed with the case closed. A properly designed case can not be opened with the lock locked. Similarly, many locks can not be removed, nor disassembled with the lock locked. Is THIS one properly designed? The key in the eBay picture is for a lock that would be as pickable as a domestic door lock. From alan at alanlee.org Tue Feb 14 17:45:40 2017 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 18:45:40 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <03f10b6c-53f1-cfa8-0413-63b7f7ca7179@hachti.de> References: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> <03f10b6c-53f1-cfa8-0413-63b7f7ca7179@hachti.de> Message-ID: Not sure if you are aware, but FYI - Malcolm MacLeod with some involvement from Kyle Owen, Jack Rubin, and others ported your code to a ATF1508 CPLD with a minimal test board. I believe the longer term plan was to make a full featured community project from it, but it's stalled a bit atm. You can find the code repo here: https://github.com/malmacleod/omni-serial [1] And the Eagle files for the minimal test board here: https://www.retrotronics.org/svn/omniserial/ [2] All 5V PTH with minimal component count. However the FTDI micro-USB DE-9 shell connector violates the component height requirements. But it could be sub'd for a 6 pin header and USB serial cable. -Alan On 2017-02-14 16:21, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > On 14.02.2017 19:13, W2HX wrote: > >> Personally, i don't care about lead free solder. > I care about lead: It's essential! > >> Is there a rohs requirement for small production, non profit, prototyping project? > Yes. At least here: You are not allowed to put anything on the market which is not RoHS conform. And "putting on the market", in german "inverkehrbringen" does explicitly not mean "large quantity, for profit etc." Even doing it for fun and giving the product away for free is not allowed. With that they want to catch the smart people who try to sell kits and assemble them for free afterwards. > > BTW the OmniUSB is NOT a non profit project!! I have to admit that! It gives me some funding for my Eagle license and workshop equipment. But not that much. And it does actually not cover a fraction of the development work. So it's for fun on the one hand but officially run by my small business on the other hand. > > The CPLD and board design are not secret... > > Kind regards > > Philipp :-) Links: ------ [1] https://github.com/malmacleod/omni-serial [2] https://www.retrotronics.org/svn/omniserial/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Feb 14 19:55:25 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 20:55:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mystery QED board Message-ID: <20170215015525.340CA18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Does anyone know what the QED board (4th image) in this eBay lot: http://www.ebay.com/itm/322414100718 is? The large chip looks like a J11 chip. However, the only QED PDP-11 board I found mention of online is a high-performance hex board UNIBUS processor, the QED 95. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Feb 14 19:57:17 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 20:57:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Information Request: unidentified HP 9825T instructions Message-ID: <20170215015717.B961718C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > Having other hardware decode instructions that appear as NOPs to the > main processor is not uncommon in HP machines. Ah, so you actually had some prior knowledge that helped in working out that puzzle, that that's what's happening here! :-) Noel From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 20:29:54 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 18:29:54 -0800 Subject: Mystery QED board In-Reply-To: <20170215015525.340CA18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170215015525.340CA18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2/14/17 5:55 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Does anyone know what the QED board (4th image) in this eBay lot: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/322414100718 > > is? The large chip looks like a J11 chip. However, the only QED PDP-11 board > I found mention of online is a high-performance hex board UNIBUS processor, > the QED 95. > > Noel > I was looking at that as well, and I think it is a QED 90 -- there are docs on Bitsavers and it seems to match up (there are a few other QED boards in that auction that go with it). Not sure exactly what PDP-11 system that particular set of boards goes in, the exact configuration varies based on what system it's going in... - Josh From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Feb 14 20:36:40 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 21:36:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mystery QED board Message-ID: <20170215023640.E48FE18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > I think it is a QED 90 -- there are docs on Bitsavers ??? The only file in: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/quickwareEngineering/ is for the QED-95? Noel From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 21:20:09 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 19:20:09 -0800 Subject: Mystery QED board In-Reply-To: <20170215023640.E48FE18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170215023640.E48FE18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <946360e8-3661-53f9-fd9b-c19d6b6bd527@gmail.com> On 2/14/17 6:36 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Josh Dersch > > > I think it is a QED 90 -- there are docs on Bitsavers > > ??? The only file in: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/quickwareEngineering/ > > is for the QED-95? > > Noel > Sorry, typo. From seefriek at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 22:29:53 2017 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 23:29:53 -0500 Subject: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper Message-ID: From: william degnan > that's fine, but the reasoning was totally political and narrow minded. I'd be fascinated at a justification for this opinion that squared with "John C. Calhoun?s legacy as a white supremacist and a national leader who passionately promoted slavery as a ?positive good?". From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 14 22:46:13 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 20:46:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, Ken Seefried wrote: > I'd be fascinated at a justification for this opinion that squared > with "John C. Calhoun?s legacy as a white supremacist and a national > leader who passionately promoted slavery as a ?positive good?". And, once he graduated from Yale in 1804, he turned his back on the college, with no further significant involvement, and didn't give them money! famous alum, before Yale had any other famous alums. I'd say that Grace Hopper had a better legacy. From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 22:54:17 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 22:54:17 -0600 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e Message-ID: <4y8dgmdtb57pa501tv16grwx.1487134457726@email.android.com> Perhaps a silly question but have you poked around local social media for a local unix group? Or a local craigslist ad for someone to borrow a key? I wouldn't think they'd be thst uncommon although admittedly I also stopped/paused a project for similar lack of results a while back (much different system though). From suea.pac at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 16:09:15 2017 From: suea.pac at gmail.com (Susan Anderson) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:09:15 -0500 Subject: trying to resurrect a DG Nova 3 Message-ID: Hi CC folks: Been trying for several years now to find the vital parts I need to get a Nova 3/12 from my old Univ. up & running. What I do have now is the chassis with PS, front panel, CPU and FPU boards, some of the documentation, and, hopefully pending, a disc drive (not sure if it has controller). Most of all, of course, we badly need Mag or MOS memory, plus I/O boards/peripherals. Have posted on "vintage computers" several times and also contacted a DG specialist but so far no success with parts. ANY help in getting this thing going before, at pushing 70, I get too old to ever see it run even a simple routine or ancient game, (or care !) would be very deeply appreciated!! Please eMail: firesweep "at" verizon "dot" net if you can help or have leads! regards, Roger A. in NY From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Tue Feb 14 17:00:44 2017 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 18:00:44 -0500 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: References: <333580ec-0e6b-f3d4-fbd9-b46e96eea4b6@oryx.us> <000c01d2826e$837a4ed0$8a6eec70$@classiccmp.org> <6107b95a-6f05-00b5-069d-f3c6090ef222@oryx.us> <573b53d5-66f6-1de1-7817-ef9b4a93331a@oryx.us> <20170209200601.GA19486@allie.home.misty.com> <1e7710cb02aa03e2d38c0845fb3a6fc5@triadic.us> <31ce1aa9-4a3f-e09c-4951-031addd5dd17@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 2017-02-14 17:52, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, geneb wrote: >> Worse case, just take the lock switch out of the chassis and find a >> local locksmith that'll make you a key. It's a pretty common thing >> for them. > > A properly designed lock can not be removed with the case closed. > A properly designed case can not be opened with the lock locked. > Similarly, many locks can not be removed, nor disassembled with the > lock locked. > > Is THIS one properly designed? > > The key in the eBay picture is for a lock that would be as pickable as > a domestic door lock. A paperclip, a small flathead screwdriver, and about 5 minutes of time will get you in. These locks were never meant for security (that's why they are all keyed the same), they are meant to keep you from accidentally resetting the box. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 00:26:03 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 06:26:03 +0000 Subject: Information Request: unidentified HP 9825T instructions In-Reply-To: <20170215015717.B961718C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170215015717.B961718C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 1:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Tony Duell > > > Having other hardware decode instructions that appear as NOPs to the > > main processor is not uncommon in HP machines. > > Ah, so you actually had some prior knowledge that helped in working out that > puzzle, that that's what's happening here! :-) Nothing that isn't now available to anyone, like 'my' schematics of the 9825 memory boards, the HP41 machine code programming info (think of things like the printer controller IC), etc. -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 00:30:28 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 06:30:28 +0000 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <869dc308-5400-7a4f-09f5-c60d00d22a3b@hachti.de> References: <869dc308-5400-7a4f-09f5-c60d00d22a3b@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 9:27 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I! > > WANT! > > A! > > CREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Completely missing on my side. And.. I always mix up numbers. I have > (several of each) Lorenz lo15 (model 15), Siemens t100, Siemens t68d, Lorenz > lo133, model 33, and model 35 (the greatest teleprinter in history). > > I could swap something for a nice creed machine. I suspect they're more common in the UK than elsewhere. They were used by the Post Office for the Telex service, for example. They are less common over here than they were perhaps 30 years ago, but not impossible to find. I think one was up for sale for a few 10's of pounds a few weeks ago (it did sell in case you are wondering). Obviously these machines are normally 'collection only' the sellers will not ship them. -tony From other at oryx.us Wed Feb 15 00:54:49 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 00:54:49 -0600 Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e In-Reply-To: <4y8dgmdtb57pa501tv16grwx.1487134457726@email.android.com> References: <4y8dgmdtb57pa501tv16grwx.1487134457726@email.android.com> Message-ID: <207d0344-5c8f-4d72-d4a8-65b1ea2e7c12@oryx.us> Absolutely. This list isn't the only media I have made the request for a physical key on. Although I don't feel that rare is the correct term for this system, I believe that even in their day, SPARCServer 1000's (and 2000's) weren't necessarily common commodities. There were (3) total Sun4d models; the 1000, the 2000 and the Cray CS6400. A bare bones, single processor 1000's started at $37,000 with well optioned systems well into the 6 figure range, in 1992 dollars. Other sources, where else was that key used? Aside from the SPARCserver 2000, the other place that key was used was primarily in tape storage devices of that era. Unfortunately, I don't run into many tape drive collectors. Thanks again for your interest. On 02/14/17 10:54 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Perhaps a silly question but have you poked around local social media for a > local unix group? Or a local craigslist ad for someone to borrow a key? I > wouldn't think they'd be thst uncommon although admittedly I also > stopped/paused a project for similar lack of results a while back (much > different system though). > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Feb 15 02:33:47 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 09:33:47 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170215083346.GZ4154@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:50:40AM -0800, W2HX wrote: > Don't laugh I'm not laughing, if anything I'm jealous :) > http://w2hx.com/x/New%20Shack/0224151752b.jpg > > > ________________________________ > From: ben > Sent: Feb 14, 2017 1:54 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! > > On 2/14/2017 6:27 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > > FWIW, Mini-B connectors are on their way out, nor USB OTG compliant. > > Though agreed that they are flimsy... Why not just a type A or > > something? Easy, big, and robust. > > > Why not mini and regular? > Ben. > PS: Add a 45.5 baud serail port. Control everything with a 5 level TTY. :) From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Feb 15 02:43:15 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 09:43:15 +0100 Subject: Mystery QED board In-Reply-To: References: <20170215015525.340CA18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170215084313.GA4154@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 06:29:54PM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 2/14/17 5:55 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >Does anyone know what the QED board (4th image) in this eBay lot: > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/322414100718 > > > >is? The large chip looks like a J11 chip. However, the only QED PDP-11 board > >I found mention of online is a high-performance hex board UNIBUS processor, > >the QED 95. > > > > Noel > > > I was looking at that as well, and I think it is a QED 90 -- there are docs > on Bitsavers and it seems to match up (there are a few other QED boards in > that auction that go with it). Not sure exactly what PDP-11 system that > particular set of boards goes in, the exact configuration varies based on > what system it's going in... > Did you notice the sticker on the ROM that says: ? QED 9038 QED 90/95 Boot Rom Vsn 2.01 0981 So, I dare venture and say it's a QED 90 or 95 :) (Also the descriotion lists a "90-CPU") /P From spedraja at ono.com Wed Feb 15 04:24:31 2017 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 11:24:31 +0100 Subject: How I came to vintage computers In-Reply-To: <01983ab2-1714-9f4f-d022-16de000d1bff@hachti.de> References: <01983ab2-1714-9f4f-d022-16de000d1bff@hachti.de> Message-ID: That's fine, Philipp (at least for me). Thanks for share this with us. Kind Regards Sergio Pedraja 2017-02-14 23:28 GMT+01:00 Philipp Hachtmann : > Hey folks, > > after my OmniUSB-thread has gone down the teleprinter way... I'll start a > new thread. > > Did you now how I came to vintage computers? How I became some kind of > computer engineer? Probably not. It's so easy. Listen. Long story ahead. > > In 1999 I started to study computer science. Java and algorithms and all > that clean stuff. > One day in autumn 2000 I had that idea: I need a Fernschreiber > (=teleprinter)! I had nothing to do with that stuff. And I did no know how > it worked. I even did not remember having seen one. It was just that word in > my head. > So I bought my first Siemens T100 (still here in the house, two floors below > me). It was a machine with strange connectors which made awful noise when > connected to power. > So I went to the library and found a good book from 1934. That told me how > the teleprinter works. > I then somehow soldered a simple interface to connect that beast to the > parallel (!!!) port of my Linux server (the first hachti.de server was a > mainboard and a harddisk in the corner of my student home where we had > 10mbit LAN acess and fixed IP. I even did a DNS reverse mapping > philipp.vorstrasse.uni-bremen.de for my IP). > At that time all about programming I knew was Turbo Pascal, some Z80 machine > language (not assembly language, I programmed that beast in hex) and a bit > Java. I didn't even know much about Linux. The server back then had been > setup by someone else who was in need of a server. So he used it as well. > I used the parallel port because I had an idea how to control the pins. I > knew that there was something ugly called serial port but I had not yet made > the connection that this was EXACTLY what I would have needed. > > To program that thing I needed some software. So I went to the bookstore at > noon. Will never forget that. Bought the O'Reilly Linux Kernel drivers book > (the one with the horse) and started to write my first C program ever. It > was a kernel module. The Kernel must have been Linux 2.2. It was > frustrating. But after a decent 30 hour nonstop session and hundreds of > reboots (haha, of my web and mail server which was also running X from time > to time) I really had some bitbang code which made the teleprinter say what > I wanted it to say. > I soon realised that with a multitasking OS like Linux I had the choice of > outputting correct data using busy wait in Kernel or outputting a mess when > the system gets under load. So I learned THAT lesson. > I decided that I needed something else. Because I had heard of other people > working with something called PIC Microcontroller, I bought one and a > programmer. And a breadboard. That evil 16f84 was sitting there on my desk, > naked, and did - nothing. > Getting the PIC up and running was pure horror. The hardest architecture > I've ever mastered. Since then I know: PIC is a load of complete shit! In > the end I failed to create a RS232 (had learned that in the meantime) to > teleprinter converter but had the idea to hook up two teleprinters using > modems. TelexPhone was born. The project (telexphone.net) was eventually > kind of stolen a few years later and continued to something still in > existence called i-telex over internet. That was never what I wanted because > the V21 modems (hard to find!!) are bit transparent. That means that the > teleprinters on both sides of the wire run as synchronous as with a real > wire between them. Very cool. The TelexPhone used a 16f876 with a approx 2k > cooperative multitasking system written entirely in assembly. It was somehow > modular. I managed to hook in modules with private main loop and init parts > by writing an impressive linker script which automated that. > Hey, I was 21 and did all that on my own! Please do NOT laugh! > > In the meantime someone somewhere invented something called eBay. And > because It's always good to have several different devices of the same type > and even better to have several examples of each those different devices, I > had an eBay search for "Lochstreifen" which means punched paper tape. Paper > tape for teleprinter, of course. > > One day I found an offer "Honeywell H316 minicomputer" which sounded > interesting. With paper tape. And no pictures. In Switzerland. A quick > search (probably already google? I used altavista.digital.com before) told > me that this could be an interesting toy. So I bought it for the incredible > amount of SFr 450. > Borrowed a car and went there. What I found was some messy stuff somewhere > on an uninsulated attic in Switzerland. Very dirty. I nearly turned down the > deal because it all looked so crappy. The seller admitted that he had kept > the stuff in that open attic since beginning of the 1980s. > I took it home. Had to drive TWICE from Bremen to Switzerland to get it all. > And it was a lucky buy. > After fiddling and cleaning around some weeks (never seen a minicomputer > before!) and reading the manuals, I found out that the PSU had a slight > problem which lead to unjustified shutdown. After I had solved that by > pulling out one of the security circuit card from the PSU, it powered up the > computer. And it magically worked instantly exactly as the manual told me. > That was in 2004. The H316 has never since then failed a single time. Only > issue are some contact issues with some memory cabling which may happen > after moving the machine. > Since then I have never had to switch a chip or a lamp or whatever. No > single failure. Not one failed CPU or memory test (except when I stress the > cable's card edge connector). It's so amazing that it became boring. > Programming in FORTRAN IV? Read the manual, punch tape, use the compiler, > linking loader and libraries as described in the manual - works. No secret > shit. And The machine came with all that software as nice source code > listing and binary paper tapes. > > While still wandering around on my Olympus of quality, I got a call by a > teleprinter friend who asked me if I would take a pdp8 computer. I thought > that bit of that infamous DEC mess could be a good counter example for my > H316's unlimited quality and went to pick up the pdp8. The day ended with my > yellow car completely stuffed with rusty pdp8/l, and lots of other stuff. It > were three machines. The tape drives and racks were fubar and went to scrap. > > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/haul/dscn0750_full.jpg > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/haul/dscn0751_full.jpg > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/haul/dscn2109_full.jpg > > That was the beginning of the end. It just happened. Later 8/e, lab8/e etc. > And I had to admit that playing with Omnibus pdp8 is absolutely amazing! > It's a great toy! I think the pdp8/e (not straight-8, 8/i, /s or whatever) > is one of the greatest toys ever made. There are many games, it breaks > regularly while still giving you a chance to be satisfied after fixing it. > And it's so versatile! > And digging through those blurry schematics is a game in its own right! For > the Honeywell everything comes in high quality print, completely correct, no > derivations and workarounds. With DEC it can be an adventure to get an > overview over a hardware, its features, ECOs and FCOs and what else could > happen. > > Someday I also made a pdp8 in an FPGA. That was during the time I wanted to > be a chip designer. But the only place where I could to ASIC design (I did > my diploma thesis about a video generator FPGA design) was closed down > instead of hiring me. Thank you, Silicon Image! > > Currently I'm working for a Bosch/Denso joint venture doing Linux security > for car multimedia systems. In my free time I have just started to construct > a M?rklin model railroad digital decoder which I will try to sell > commercially (the competition use closed source PIC stuff. I use GPLv3 AVR > code). And I run a letterpress print shop with the biggest machine being > over 5 metric tons. > > In the printshop there's also an 8/e. And I have inherited a forklift. > > Don't know why I wrote this... Just wanted to write it. The teleprinter > discussion... It was the teleprinter discussion.... > > I never learned to get that paper... I just had the right toys. > > That's it for now :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Feb 15 05:03:25 2017 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 12:03:25 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <5a9bae04-864c-0283-c7ec-8e03179d69bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20170215110325.GA24977@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:02:55AM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: [...] > This is a peripheral. USB OTG doesn't apply, and USB-A would be > "inappropriate". Pretend this is an inkjet printer. What plug would you > expect to find on that? Choose your own facile answer: a) None, printers have *sockets*; b) RJ-45; or c) The only thing I'd connect to an inkjet printer is a steel-toecapped boot. I much prefer regular USB A/B connectors, as the "micro" form is rather mechanically weak and seems to break easily. The USB 3 variant is particularly awful. I have yet to handle any USB C kit, which seems OK on paper, but only time will tell how good it is in practice. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 15 07:10:14 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 08:10:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mystery QED board Message-ID: <20170215131014.6770218C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > Sorry, typo. Ah, no wonder I couldn't find it... :-) The memory card (?) - the hex board leaning up against the wall in the middle - does look a lot like the MS95 memory card from the manual (three horizontal DuPont headers at the top, two vertical ones at the bottom, etc) but it also has differences - it doesn't have the two large square chips, etc. (And there's an MS95 in the board list, IIRC.) None of the other boards seem to correspond to anything in the QED 95 manual, though. So, rather a mystery. Quickware Engineering does still have a Web page (http://quickware.com/) which says that "Our core business is providing custom PDP-11 processor emulator upgrades", but it contains little content. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 07:33:09 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 08:33:09 -0500 Subject: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, Ken Seefried wrote: > >> I'd be fascinated at a justification for this opinion that squared >> with "John C. Calhoun?s legacy as a white supremacist and a national >> leader who passionately promoted slavery as a ?positive good?". >> > > And, once he graduated from Yale in 1804, he turned his back on the > college, with no further significant involvement, and didn't give them > money! > > famous alum, before Yale had any other famous alums. > > > I'd say that Grace Hopper had a better legacy. > > Grace Hopper checks all the boxes of an acceptable historical figure, today...100 years from now in the midst of an "anti technology" movement students will vote to replace Hopper with someone more acceptable for that time. She'd be the poster child villain of say an anti tech movement (like the late 60's anti-tech movement). Live by the sword die by the sword. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=654 (Revolutionary Force Bombs IBM Office ... Computerword March 18, 1970) Bill From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 15 07:55:54 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 14:55:54 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> <03f10b6c-53f1-cfa8-0413-63b7f7ca7179@hachti.de> Message-ID: <46882e4d-66b7-4f27-6993-433e507559e0@hachti.de> On 02/15/2017 12:45 AM, Alan Hightower wrote: > Not sure if you are aware, but FYI - Malcolm MacLeod with some > involvement from Kyle Owen, Jack Rubin, and others ported your code to a > ATF1508 CPLD with a minimal test board. Oh, ah! I looked into their github and the README.md. There is a copy of the GPLv3 and as it looks no source code. And no hint that they used code from me. That would NOT be ok!!! Even if I have disclosed the source code, I have not licensed it under GPLv3 or put it into the public domain. It's a copyrighted work and I am the author. And the code is currently not licensed to anyone. And nobody but me has the right to license that code or parts of it to anyone. That rant only to be clear... How something like that should happen: 1. Ask the author to license the stuff under a free license like GPL (I probably would do that!) 2. Start own project, copy and reuse as much or little as desired. The new project's license *must* be compatible to the license of the used other code. You have to mention the original author ("based on ... by...", "in parts based on ... by ..."). > I believe the longer term plan > was to make a full featured community project from it, but it's stalled > a bit atm. Why?!? To have a single board KL8E replacement? Which it actually is. OmniUSB's strong points are the following: - HIGH speed - No baudrate setting - Direct USB connection - Special instructions to use really tight loops. - USB FIFO solution implicitely double buffered AND locked on both sides: As long as you obey the teleprinter flag on the 8, you cannot create a buffer overrun and lose data. On the PC's side you access the device with usual blocking I/O. You can't write more data when the PDP8 has not read from the FIFO. Therefore no single byte lost without thinking about it. Example: PDP8 does a disk dump. PC program is stopped. The pdp8 waits. Example: PC is sending a huge block of data to the pdp8. It just writes as fast as possible. The pdp8 is stopped for an our during the transmission. No byte is lost. Using traditional RS232 somewhere in between is just stupid bullshit. It completely spoils the beauty of the idea. Of course one could add an FTDI 240x FIFO (NOT!!! NOT!!! UART!!!!) to the design - then it would be equivalent to OmniUSB. But why should one make another design? Through hole parts?!? We're living in the 21st century! The company where I want to bring the stuff for soldering just told me that they usually don't stock that old and clumsy 0805 components by default... Soldering a 200 pin TQFP is easier than doing some wire wrap connections and takes 4 minutes if you are UNexperienced. SMT soldering is easier than THT if you have done it for more than one half hour! (Of course with SMT you're on the way to really difficult stuff, but that's not part of the discussion) They just should have asked me about cooperation :-) From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 15 08:12:40 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 15:12:40 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <869dc308-5400-7a4f-09f5-c60d00d22a3b@hachti.de> Message-ID: <57f7f3b7-980a-1a99-417b-cb2c74f3ab89@hachti.de> >> I could swap something for a nice creed machine. > > I suspect they're more common in the UK than elsewhere. They were used > by the Post Office > for the Telex service, for example. I know. Here everything is full with Siemens and Lorenz. Je aussi voudrais avoir une machine de Sagem...! > are wondering). Obviously these machines are normally 'collection > only' the sellers will not ship That's the main problem :-( But teletypes are easier to find here than in US :-P :-P :-P From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Feb 15 08:16:37 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 09:16:37 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Message-ID: <1e305c.a344e.45d5bcc5@aol.com> there are one of the Siemens teletypes that print tape and has a dial on the front from Germany I have seen very compact nice unit used for telex I would love to have. shipping on teletypes from overseas is expensive though. If one was local ad inn really nice shape we would be a candidate fro it for the telecom display at SMECC. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 2/15/2017 7:12:47 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, hachti at hachti.de writes: >> I could swap something for a nice creed machine. > > I suspect they're more common in the UK than elsewhere. They were used > by the Post Office > for the Telex service, for example. I know. Here everything is full with Siemens and Lorenz. Je aussi voudrais avoir une machine de Sagem...! > are wondering). Obviously these machines are normally 'collection > only' the sellers will not ship That's the main problem :-( But teletypes are easier to find here than in US :-P :-P :-P From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 08:22:23 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 14:22:23 +0000 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <57f7f3b7-980a-1a99-417b-cb2c74f3ab89@hachti.de> References: <869dc308-5400-7a4f-09f5-c60d00d22a3b@hachti.de> <57f7f3b7-980a-1a99-417b-cb2c74f3ab89@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> I suspect they're more common in the UK than elsewhere. They were used >> by the Post Office >> for the Telex service, for example. > > > I know. Here everything is full with Siemens and Lorenz. > Je aussi voudrais avoir une machine de Sagem...! Over here, the only Teletypes we generally see are Model 33s. Even the Model 35 is very uncommon, and 5 bit stuff almost unheard-of. OK, we do see BRPE punches from time to time. There was a UK company, Data Dynamics, who used the Teletype Model 33 mechanics and put it in their own case with their own electronics. I think they re-cased the BRPE too, in a very odd case (light bulbs under the chad box, it looks very pretty). 5 bit stuff is generally Creed here. Teleprinters, paper tape readers, etc. And a few real oddities. Like a keyboard tape punch (no electronic communications, it just punches 5-level tape from the keyboard) made by a company called Booth-Willmott who I have never heard of in any other connection, Never seen a Siemens, Lorenz or Sagem machine. -tony From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Feb 15 08:40:05 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 09:40:05 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Message-ID: <1e7f75.788d3c8f.45d5c245@aol.com> I have not heard of 40 mil loop here on ttys... generally 20 mil or 60 mil. - At least what I have encountered. Is the 40 mil. standard in Europe? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 2/14/2017 2:24:15 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, hachti at hachti.de writes: On 14.02.2017 22:18, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, ben wrote: > >> On 2/14/2017 6:27 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >>> FWIW, Mini-B connectors are on their way out, nor USB OTG compliant. >>> Though agreed that they are flimsy... Why not just a type A or >>> something? Easy, big, and robust. >>> >> Why not mini and regular? >> Ben. >> PS: Add a 45.5 baud serail port. Control everything with a 5 level >> TTY. :) > > Dirty casual. 20mA current loop or nothing. The 45 baud machines do NOT run on 20mA. They usually run on 40mA :-) 20mA is the domain of model 28, 32, 33 etc. From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 15 08:45:55 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 15:45:55 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <1e7f75.788d3c8f.45d5c245@aol.com> References: <1e7f75.788d3c8f.45d5c245@aol.com> Message-ID: On 02/15/2017 03:40 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > I have not heard of 40 mil loop here on ttys... generally 20 mil or > 60 mil. - At least what I have encountered. Is the 40 mil. standard in > Europe? I have not heard about 60mA - at least not in the Telex network. All mechanical 5 step teleprinters I have ever seen and owned run on 40mA. And my test equipment has a mark on the scale at 40mA. I thought that this is international. But I also know that with respect to teleprinters there are some CCITT norms that are internationally used - except for the US. It starts with ITA2 code which is the official international 5-bit telex code. But US uses "US-TTY" which slightly differs. Only the ASCII stuff (asr 33/35 etc) run on 20mA. But that's a totally different thing. > > Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) > > > In a message dated 2/14/2017 2:24:15 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > hachti at hachti.de writes: > > > > On 14.02.2017 22:18, geneb wrote: >> On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, ben wrote: >> >>> On 2/14/2017 6:27 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >>>> FWIW, Mini-B connectors are on their way out, nor USB OTG compliant. >>>> Though agreed that they are flimsy... Why not just a type A or >>>> something? Easy, big, and robust. >>>> >>> Why not mini and regular? >>> Ben. >>> PS: Add a 45.5 baud serail port. Control everything with a 5 level >>> TTY. :) >> >> Dirty casual. 20mA current loop or nothing. > The 45 baud machines do NOT run on 20mA. They usually run on 40mA :-) > > 20mA is the domain of model 28, 32, 33 etc. > -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 philipp at hachtmann.com www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Feb 15 08:56:17 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 09:56:17 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Fwd: ibm 29 (keypunch?) In-Reply-To: <2DB16EE8-FD57-4392-BB10-EB93AE889369@neo.rr.com> References: <2DB16EE8-FD57-4392-BB10-EB93AE889369@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <09a72ca4-f7e7-81d3-4bb4-69ac174079cc@telegraphics.com.au> Hi, Phil emailed me out of the blue -- I'm not interested but anyone on the list want his 029 keypunch in Ohio? --Toby -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Fwd: ibm 29 Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 16:25:44 -0500 From: Phil Masturzo To: toby at telegraphics.com.au My name is PHiL and I live in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio. I got your email from a computer museum who thought you may be interested in purchasing my IBM 29 computer. If so, email me back or call me on my cell phone at xxx-xxx-xxxx, if I can answer any questions you may have. Thanks, Phil From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 09:11:01 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 10:11:01 -0500 Subject: Fwd: ibm 29 (keypunch?) In-Reply-To: <09a72ca4-f7e7-81d3-4bb4-69ac174079cc@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2DB16EE8-FD57-4392-BB10-EB93AE889369@neo.rr.com> <09a72ca4-f7e7-81d3-4bb4-69ac174079cc@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > Hi, > > Phil emailed me out of the blue -- I'm not interested but anyone on the list > want his 029 keypunch in Ohio? Nice. I'm close and I've kinda wanted a newer keypunch. -ethan From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Feb 15 08:19:49 2017 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 15:19:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <57f7f3b7-980a-1a99-417b-cb2c74f3ab89@hachti.de> References: <869dc308-5400-7a4f-09f5-c60d00d22a3b@hachti.de> <57f7f3b7-980a-1a99-417b-cb2c74f3ab89@hachti.de> Message-ID: <48110.212.108.17.1.1487168389.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Wed, February 15, 2017 15:12, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >>> I could swap something for a nice creed machine. >> >> I suspect they're more common in the UK than elsewhere. They were used >> by the Post Office >> for the Telex service, for example. > > I know. Here everything is full with Siemens and Lorenz. > Je aussi voudrais avoir une machine de Sagem...! > >> are wondering). Obviously these machines are normally 'collection >> only' the sellers will not ship > That's the main problem :-( > > But teletypes are easier to find here than in US :-P :-P :-P > Really?? I could use another ASR33 or an ASR32..... Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1Lk6141nvDKPxtCa5erfFyovsoJN2LKqNJ From alan at alanlee.org Wed Feb 15 09:24:28 2017 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 10:24:28 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <46882e4d-66b7-4f27-6993-433e507559e0@hachti.de> References: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> <03f10b6c-53f1-cfa8-0413-63b7f7ca7179@hachti.de> <46882e4d-66b7-4f27-6993-433e507559e0@hachti.de> Message-ID: <1932a79fe0505129d345ee78503f139f@alanlee.org> Perhaps I was unclear. It is not a direct port. It was inspired by your board during a road-trip to VCF-E to make an easier-to-assemble design. There is obviously no FT245 support. And just about any implementation of logic responding as a KL8E would look very similar. The code is available under MAIN.pld on the previous link. The design uses a UART and can be run up to 230 Kbps and tested up to 460 Kbps. It runs faster than the original hardware. The UART design certainly has limitations as you point out. But it is still an improvement on the original DEC serial hardware which most people still use. The design goals of this board are not the same as yours. It was designed to be easy to assemble without SMT. While I personally agree with your SMT comments, most people do have problems soldering .5mm pitch leaded components - as evidenced by the number of new-run orders you have taken. The ATF1508 was chosen after noticing it's data sheet revealed it could source the current requirements of the omnibus; a rare thing. > Using traditional RS232 somewhere in between is just stupid bullshit. It completely spoils the beauty of the idea. But why should one make another design? Through hole parts?!? > > They just should have asked me about cooperation :-) After your reaction, clearly... Look, no one is trying to step on toes. It's an alternative project and fully open source. I do not belive it's existence is harming you or the community. After reviewing the code, if you still believe there is an outstanding IP credit issue, we will resolve it. It is clearly NOT a derived work and does not warrant a derived license. Thanks Phil, -Alan On 2017-02-15 08:55, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > On 02/15/2017 12:45 AM, Alan Hightower wrote: > >> Not sure if you are aware, but FYI - Malcolm MacLeod with some >> involvement from Kyle Owen, Jack Rubin, and others ported your code to a >> ATF1508 CPLD with a minimal test board. > Oh, ah! I looked into their github and the README.md. > There is a copy of the GPLv3 and as it looks no source code. And no hint that they used code from me. > > That would NOT be ok!!! > > Even if I have disclosed the source code, I have not licensed it under GPLv3 or put it into the public domain. It's a copyrighted work and I am the author. And the code is currently not licensed to anyone. And nobody but me has the right to license that code or parts of it to anyone. > > That rant only to be clear... How something like that should happen: > > 1. Ask the author to license the stuff under a free license like GPL > (I probably would do that!) > > 2. Start own project, copy and reuse as much or little as desired. > The new project's license *must* be compatible to the license of the used other code. > You have to mention the original author ("based on ... by...", "in parts based on ... by ..."). > >> I believe the longer term plan >> was to make a full featured community project from it, but it's stalled >> a bit atm. > > Why?!? To have a single board KL8E replacement? Which it actually is. > > OmniUSB's strong points are the following: > > - HIGH speed > - No baudrate setting > - Direct USB connection > - Special instructions to use really tight loops. > - USB FIFO solution implicitely double buffered AND locked on both sides: As long as you obey the teleprinter flag on the 8, you cannot create a buffer overrun and lose data. On the PC's side you access the device with usual blocking I/O. You can't write more data when the PDP8 has not read from the FIFO. Therefore no single byte lost without thinking about it. > Example: PDP8 does a disk dump. PC program is stopped. The pdp8 waits. > Example: PC is sending a huge block of data to the pdp8. It just writes as fast as possible. The pdp8 is stopped for an our during the transmission. No byte is lost. > > Using traditional RS232 somewhere in between is just stupid bullshit. It completely spoils the beauty of the idea. > > Of course one could add an FTDI 240x FIFO (NOT!!! NOT!!! UART!!!!) to the design - then it would be equivalent to OmniUSB. > > But why should one make another design? Through hole parts?!? We're living in the 21st century! The company where I want to bring the stuff for soldering just told me that they usually don't stock that old and clumsy 0805 components by default... > > Soldering a 200 pin TQFP is easier than doing some wire wrap connections and takes 4 minutes if you are UNexperienced. SMT soldering is easier than THT if you have done it for more than one half hour! (Of course with SMT you're on the way to really difficult stuff, but that's not part of the discussion) > > They just should have asked me about cooperation :-) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Feb 15 09:24:28 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 10:24:28 -0500 Subject: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! - was Re: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0f801a14-69dc-f52e-2c08-94d821790d86@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-02-15 8:33 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Tue, 14 Feb 2017, Ken Seefried wrote: >> >>> I'd be fascinated at a justification for this opinion that squared >>> with "John C. Calhoun?s legacy as a white supremacist and a national >>> leader who passionately promoted slavery as a ?positive good?". >>> >> >> And, once he graduated from Yale in 1804, he turned his back on the >> college, with no further significant involvement, and didn't give them >> money! >> >> famous alum, before Yale had any other famous alums. >> >> >> I'd say that Grace Hopper had a better legacy. >> >> > > Grace Hopper checks all the boxes of an acceptable historical figure, > today...100 years from now in the midst of an "anti technology" movement > ... Even if your argument weren't absurd and offensive, Hopper isn't who any sensible imaginary "anti-tech revolutionary" would go for. They'd rightly go after the legacy of people like Zuckerberg, Thiel, Altman, etc who *are* weaponising tech. They won't even remember what Hopper did. --Toby > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=654 > (Revolutionary Force Bombs IBM Office ... Computerword March 18, 1970) > > Bill > From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 15 10:13:18 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 17:13:18 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <1932a79fe0505129d345ee78503f139f@alanlee.org> References: <5d4295ec-6768-44d6-afe3-f4b7d9b2990e@w2hx.com> <03f10b6c-53f1-cfa8-0413-63b7f7ca7179@hachti.de> <46882e4d-66b7-4f27-6993-433e507559e0@hachti.de> <1932a79fe0505129d345ee78503f139f@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <21a19e49-f436-ca0c-d239-819d641146a6@hachti.de> Hi, On 02/15/2017 04:24 PM, Alan Hightower wrote: > Perhaps I was unclear. It is not a direct port. It was inspired by your > board during a road-trip to VCF-E to make an easier-to-assemble design. Ah, ok. > There is obviously no FT245 support. And just about any implementation > of logic responding as a KL8E would look very similar. The code is > available under MAIN.pld on the previous link. Oh, I did not see that. No, that file has nothing to do with my source. I have never seen that strange language. I only use VHDL (and verilog if I'm forced to) for logic descriptions... So this .pld looked like some binary for me. OK, I even didn't know that there are Atmel CPLDs. > The design uses a UART and can be run up to 230 Kbps and tested up to > 460 Kbps. It runs faster than the original hardware. The UART design > certainly has limitations as you point out. The speed does not matter. There it exactly one fault: The design uses an UART. The qualities or speed of the UART are irrelevant. But it's too slow, of course. > But it is still an > improvement on the original DEC serial hardware which most people still > use. > The design goals of this board are not the same as yours. Probably :-) I have to admit that I don't understand the design goal: Why should one *not* want to use a KL8 serial board? I like it very much and use some of them from 110 baud to 19200 baud. I use them only as terminal connection. So I see no use case for a however improved serial card - except when you don't have a KL8E. But that's a very theoretical assumption. When I design something to be used with vintage hardware, I usually think of it as an addition instead of a replacement. I use OmniUSB IN ADDITION to KL8E. At the same time, of course. Console over KL8E, high speed data communication <-> PC over OmniUSB. I use it with Kermit, dumprest etc. It's of course also possible to have several OmniUSB boards in the system :-) > It was designed to be easy to assemble without SMT. While I personally > agree with your SMT comments, most people do have problems soldering > .5mm pitch leaded components - Yes, that's because they just did not try at all. They're stuck with the idea that they would have to solder the stuff pin by pin with a microscopic soldering tip. But I use a big reservoir tip. And then it's REALLY becoming easy! I also belonged to the fraction that thought it would be somehow impossible to solder TQFP and friends. Until I tried it. That was the day I started to forget about which THT components I could have laying around. With normal SMT and 0805 resistors I am completely happy. > The ATF1508 was chosen after noticing it's data > sheet revealed it could source the current requirements of the omnibus; > a rare thing. Yes, really. > After your reaction, clearly... Look, no one is trying to step on toes. I did not expect that. Don't worry! I just wanted point out how things in that area are handled properly. I'm working in the software business and that kind of thought is part of my day job. One should also be aware of the difference between public domain, open source, free software and the different license models and have an understanding of the applicable rights and obligations. Kind regards Philipp From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 10:03:43 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 11:03:43 -0500 Subject: Fwd: ibm 29 (keypunch?) References: <2DB16EE8-FD57-4392-BB10-EB93AE889369@neo.rr.com> <09a72ca4-f7e7-81d3-4bb4-69ac174079cc@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <0A1E0306EC9944459F6F4F68EFF4ED78@310e2> Guess it's time I got off my butt and looked for those blank cards I promised you many months ago... See ya off-list. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Fwd: ibm 29 (keypunch?) > On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Phil emailed me out of the blue -- I'm not interested but anyone on the list >> want his 029 keypunch in Ohio? > > Nice. I'm close and I've kinda wanted a newer keypunch. > > -ethan From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Feb 15 10:30:32 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 10:30:32 -0600 Subject: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! In-Reply-To: <0f801a14-69dc-f52e-2c08-94d821790d86@telegraphics.com.au> References: <0f801a14-69dc-f52e-2c08-94d821790d86@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20170215163031.GA30223@lonesome.com> now we've devolved into complete absurdity. mcl From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 15 10:49:28 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 08:49:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! - was Re: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper In-Reply-To: <0f801a14-69dc-f52e-2c08-94d821790d86@telegraphics.com.au> References: <0f801a14-69dc-f52e-2c08-94d821790d86@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Besides, Kaczynski was Harvard, not Yale. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 15 11:00:03 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 12:00:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! Message-ID: <20170215170003.3761A18C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Toby Thain > Even if your argument weren't absurd and offensive Absurd and offensive is in the eye of the beholder. Can we please drop this topic? Thanks. Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Feb 15 11:01:20 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 12:01:20 -0500 Subject: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! In-Reply-To: <20170215163031.GA30223@lonesome.com> References: <0f801a14-69dc-f52e-2c08-94d821790d86@telegraphics.com.au> <20170215163031.GA30223@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <854618e5-e5a1-6322-d654-62a01eb4fb7b@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-02-15 11:30 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > now we've devolved into complete absurdity. > > mcl > Missed the sarcasm? *I* didn't invent this imaginary anti-tech revolution... --T From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Feb 15 11:02:57 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 09:02:57 -0800 Subject: How I came to vintage computers In-Reply-To: <01983ab2-1714-9f4f-d022-16de000d1bff@hachti.de> References: <01983ab2-1714-9f4f-d022-16de000d1bff@hachti.de> Message-ID: <139C4281-4A96-4E5F-8CF9-C4CC0346AD1C@nf6x.net> Thanks for sharing. That was a delightful origin story. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 15 12:06:44 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 10:06:44 -0800 Subject: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! In-Reply-To: <854618e5-e5a1-6322-d654-62a01eb4fb7b@telegraphics.com.au> References: <0f801a14-69dc-f52e-2c08-94d821790d86@telegraphics.com.au> <20170215163031.GA30223@lonesome.com> <854618e5-e5a1-6322-d654-62a01eb4fb7b@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I apologize to the list for having made the original post. I had the privilege of once meeting Dr. Hopper and was quite impressed. Again, I did not mean to start a kerfuffle. --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 12:14:01 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 13:14:01 -0500 Subject: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! References: <0f801a14-69dc-f52e-2c08-94d821790d86@telegraphics.com.au> <20170215163031.GA30223@lonesome.com> <854618e5-e5a1-6322-d654-62a01eb4fb7b@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5F7E388F0DC64698B9FDA54BD3CB0C05@310e2> I also attended one of her lectures in my distant youth and was similarly impressed; an exceptional person indeed, especially considering the culture and politics of the day. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 1:06 PM Subject: Re: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! >I apologize to the list for having made the original post. I had the > privilege of once meeting Dr. Hopper and was quite impressed. > > Again, I did not mean to start a kerfuffle. > > --Chuck > > From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 15 12:22:41 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 19:22:41 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <1e305c.a344e.45d5bcc5@aol.com> References: <1e305c.a344e.45d5bcc5@aol.com> Message-ID: <85e8c889-7c2f-aad1-f4d8-7db8603bf4e9@hachti.de> Hi, On 02/15/2017 03:16 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > there are one of the Siemens teletypes that print tape and has a dial > on the front from Germany I have seen very compact nice unit used for > telex I would love to have. It's the t68d. Exists in very different versions. With paper tape, without, with dial, black, brown, etc. I have a few of those. I even have one sitting in Morocco. I brought it there by car... From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Feb 15 13:17:26 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 11:17:26 -0800 Subject: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! In-Reply-To: <5F7E388F0DC64698B9FDA54BD3CB0C05@310e2> References: <0f801a14-69dc-f52e-2c08-94d821790d86@telegraphics.com.au> <20170215163031.GA30223@lonesome.com> <854618e5-e5a1-6322-d654-62a01eb4fb7b@telegraphics.com.au> <5F7E388F0DC64698B9FDA54BD3CB0C05@310e2> Message-ID: On 2/15/2017 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > I also attended one of her lectures in my distant youth and was similarly impressed; an exceptional person indeed, especially considering the culture and politics of the day. > > m I saw her speak twice, and at UMR we had a small enough group and she had time and visited quite a while with the ACM there during her time on campus. But she had only brought a couple of "nanoseconds" and so I missed a chance to snag one. Very nice lady. thanks Jim From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Feb 15 13:24:46 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 14:24:46 -0500 Subject: How I came to vintage computers Message-ID: <21b736.84f6570.45d604fe@aol.com> Indeed! It is fun to learn what got people interested in the history... and their replies are in some cases interesting history itself! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 2/15/2017 10:03:05 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, nf6x at nf6x.net writes: Thanks for sharing. That was a delightful origin story. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 15 13:34:12 2017 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 19:34:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! References: <942633041.5543863.1487187252392.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <942633041.5543863.1487187252392@mail.yahoo.com> On Wed, 2/15/17, jim stephens wrote: > I saw her speak twice... I got to hear her speak once when I was a freshman in college before I really knew much about who she was. Yet there were still several things she said that have stuck with me ever since.? Years later I was talking with a retired Navy admiral that I worked with and if I remember correctly how he put it, Hopper was the only person Nimitz was ever scared of. >? But she had only brought a couple of "nanoseconds" and so I > missed a chance to snag one. Alas, I never got one of her nanoseconds either.? But I still love telling my students the story about them. > Very nice lady. >From everything I've heard she was indeed, in addition to being a force of nature. Always wished I had gotten a chance to meet her. BLS From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Feb 15 13:42:37 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 19:42:37 +0000 Subject: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! In-Reply-To: <5F7E388F0DC64698B9FDA54BD3CB0C05@310e2> References: <0f801a14-69dc-f52e-2c08-94d821790d86@telegraphics.com.au> <20170215163031.GA30223@lonesome.com> <854618e5-e5a1-6322-d654-62a01eb4fb7b@telegraphics.com.au> , <5F7E388F0DC64698B9FDA54BD3CB0C05@310e2> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Mike Stein [mhs.stein at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 1:14 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! I also attended one of her lectures in my distant youth and was similarly impressed; an exceptional person indeed, especially considering the culture and politics of the day. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 1:06 PM Subject: Re: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT! >I apologize to the list for having made the original post. I had the > privilege of once meeting Dr. Hopper and was quite impressed. > > Again, I did not mean to start a kerfuffle. > > --Chuck > > ____________________________________________ I have a VCR Tape of one of here talks here somewhere. But I am still waiting to hear what has caused this sudden flurry of Grace Murray Hopper mania considering how muc of our domain (IT) seem to want her accomplishments to just dry up and blow away. bill From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 15 15:07:22 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 14:07:22 -0700 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <1e305c.a344e.45d5bcc5@aol.com> References: <1e305c.a344e.45d5bcc5@aol.com> Message-ID: <5d1dd283-ca63-3b19-049c-b2072a993b3c@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/15/2017 7:16 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > there are one of the Siemens teletypes that print tape and has a dial > on the front from Germany I have seen very compact nice unit used for > telex I would love to have. shipping on teletypes from overseas is > expensive though. > > If one was local ad inn really nice shape we would be a candidate fro > it for the telecom display at SMECC. Hurry up with the RTTY to cctalk mesage system. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 15 15:09:16 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 14:09:16 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Fwd: ibm 29 (keypunch?) In-Reply-To: <09a72ca4-f7e7-81d3-4bb4-69ac174079cc@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2DB16EE8-FD57-4392-BB10-EB93AE889369@neo.rr.com> <09a72ca4-f7e7-81d3-4bb4-69ac174079cc@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <675fe8e8-b7d7-0841-f0ae-cb3a5654d940@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/15/2017 7:56 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > Hi, > > Phil emailed me out of the blue -- I'm not interested but anyone on the > list want his 029 keypunch in Ohio? > > --Toby A bunch of monkeys with a Idea for this great book... From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Feb 15 15:13:57 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 16:13:57 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Message-ID: <22ff5c.5ad88aff.45d61e94@aol.com> Always good to review what the terms of each is. Newcomers may not understand completely. Same with photo usage and video and music usage - there are various terms of usage for these media types. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 2/15/2017 9:13:36 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, hachti at hachti.de writes: One should also be aware of the difference between public domain, open source, free software and the different license models and have an understanding of the applicable rights and obligations. Kind regards Philipp From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Feb 15 15:29:21 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 16:29:21 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Message-ID: <232a74.7b8ed8d0.45d62231@aol.com> They are really neat looking! Phillipp! http://www.radista.info/tt_units/teleprinter_T-68d.jpg Yes I like the colors! what is the weight! Anyone heading to western US with large suitcase soon? (grin!) Another one our favorite sortta cute teletypes we like here at the SMECC museum is the model 31. we are looking to get all possible variants of this machine. We have some interesting stuff at this link here http://web.archive.org/web/20170103075925/http://www.smecc.org/teletype_mode l_31.htm And... we are interested in more of them, any photos of them or scans of them in various uses to continue to build this section out. Please drop us a line offlist at couryhouse at aol.com Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 2/15/2017 11:22:51 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, hachti at hachti.de writes: Hi, On 02/15/2017 03:16 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > there are one of the Siemens teletypes that print tape and has a dial > on the front from Germany I have seen very compact nice unit used for > telex I would love to have. It's the t68d. Exists in very different versions. With paper tape, without, with dial, black, brown, etc. I have a few of those. I even have one sitting in Morocco. I brought it there by car... From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 23:40:28 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 22:40:28 -0700 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <869dc308-5400-7a4f-09f5-c60d00d22a3b@hachti.de> <57f7f3b7-980a-1a99-417b-cb2c74f3ab89@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > Over here, the only Teletypes we generally see are Model 33s. Even the > Model > 35 is very uncommon, In my experience, it's the same in the US: the model 33 has always been MUCH more common than the 35. Every model 35 I actually saw in service back in the day was a system console, not for "end users". Presumably it was desired for the system console to be a heavy-duty and high-reliability device, and the model 35 was built like a battleship. Actually, even better than that: it was built like a model 28! Too bad there wasn't (AFAIK) an upper/lower case version of the 35. I've never seen a model 37 or model 38 in person, but it appears that they were light-duty machines like the 33. I used the model 33 a huge amount from 1977 to 1979, but from 1979 to 1982 I mostly used the DEC LA36 DECwriter II and various CRT terminals. and 5 bit stuff almost unheard-of. In the US, common for hams, not common for computers. Maybe they were common for computers in the early 1960s. OK, we do see BRPE > punches from time to time. I'd really like to get one of those! From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 14:55:02 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 12:55:02 -0800 Subject: FS: PDP-8 Music System paper tape set In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a set of paper tapes for the PDP-8 comprising a Music System. There are 8 tapes in a DEC paper tape carrier, all in splendid condition. A couple photos: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q427/Sellam_Abraham/20170124_144624_HDR_zps1lrtjaum.jpg http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q427/Sellam_Abraham/20170124_144616_HDR_zpsgh6xor0f.jpg I'm asking $200 or best offer. Thanks! Sellam From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Feb 15 16:01:59 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 14:01:59 -0800 Subject: Fwd: ibm 29 (keypunch?) In-Reply-To: <09a72ca4-f7e7-81d3-4bb4-69ac174079cc@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2DB16EE8-FD57-4392-BB10-EB93AE889369@neo.rr.com> <09a72ca4-f7e7-81d3-4bb4-69ac174079cc@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: If was not a 5K mile round trip I could use it to merge together with the one I have to make one good working unit. On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:56 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > Hi, > > Phil emailed me out of the blue -- I'm not interested but anyone on the list > want his 029 keypunch in Ohio? > > --Toby > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: Fwd: ibm 29 > Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 16:25:44 -0500 > From: Phil Masturzo > To: toby at telegraphics.com.au > > > > My name is PHiL and I live in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio. I got your email from a > computer museum who thought you may be interested in purchasing my IBM 29 > computer. If so, email me back or call me on my cell > phone at xxx-xxx-xxxx, if I can answer any questions you may have. > > Thanks, > > Phil > > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 00:29:02 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 06:29:02 +0000 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <869dc308-5400-7a4f-09f5-c60d00d22a3b@hachti.de> <57f7f3b7-980a-1a99-417b-cb2c74f3ab89@hachti.de> Message-ID: >> and 5 bit stuff almost unheard-of. > > > In the US, common for hams, not common for computers. Maybe they were > common for computers in the early 1960s. I think at one time radio amateurs (at least over here) had to use 5 bit ITA2 machines for RTTY. It may even be to this day that RTTY implies that, and that ASCII is classed as 'data'. But the 5 level machines that were used over here tend to be Creeds (Creed 7s, 75s and 444s mostly). The RSGB (Radio Society of Great Britain, a bit like the ARRL) 'Teleprinter Handbook' (on RTTY operation) does have some details of things like the Teletype 28, so I guess some made it over here, but I've yet to see one. > >> OK, we do see BRPE >> punches from time to time. > > > I'd really like to get one of those! I think shipping one is out of the question. Anyway, mine have 240V 50Hz motors. -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 01:28:56 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 07:28:56 -0000 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <869dc308-5400-7a4f-09f5-c60d00d22a3b@hachti.de> <57f7f3b7-980a-1a99-417b-cb2c74f3ab89@hachti.de> Message-ID: <006201d28826$55cb0930$01611b90$@outlook.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 16 February 2017 06:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and > react! > > >> and 5 bit stuff almost unheard-of. > > > > > > In the US, common for hams, not common for computers. Maybe they > were > > common for computers in the early 1960s. > > I think at one time radio amateurs (at least over here) had to use 5 bit ITA2 > machines for RTTY. It may even be to this day that RTTY implies that, and that > ASCII is classed as 'data'. Yes RTTY is de-facto 5-bit. I have never heard plain ASCII being used on-air. In its day AMTOR which uses 5-bit codes and adds error was also popular. The most common ASCII modes were AX25 and TCPIP over AX25. > But the 5 level machines that were used over here > tend to be Creeds (Creed 7s, 75s and 444s mostly). > I think it depends on "when". When RTTY first started Creed 7Bs were common cheap and had governed motors so could be adjusted to run on 45.5 or 50 baud. Later on 75's (which is my favourite) started to become available but many of these had synchronous motors so could not be adjusted. Finally 444's became available. I really don't like the 444 much. The typewriter style type basket seems to be a backward step over the neat single element of the 75... I used a 7B with my "Newbear 7768" 6800 system. > The RSGB (Radio Society of Great Britain, a bit like the ARRL) 'Teleprinter > Handbook' (on RTTY operation) does have some details of things like the > Teletype 28, so I guess some made it over here, but I've yet to see one. > I have seen a couple of 28s crop up on E-Bay and I am sure I have seen one "in the flesh" in some museum.. > > > >> OK, we do see BRPE > >> punches from time to time. > > > > > > I'd really like to get one of those! > > I think shipping one is out of the question. Anyway, mine have 240V 50Hz > motors. > > -tony Dave From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 02:30:26 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 01:30:26 -0700 Subject: Amateur Radio use of Teleprinters (was Re: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react!) Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 11:29 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I think at one time radio amateurs (at least over here) had to use 5 bit > ITA2 > machines for RTTY. Same here. > It may even be to this day that RTTY implies that, and > that ASCII is classed as 'data'. The FCC order authorizing Amateur Radio use of ASCII went into effect in March of 1980, but at the moment I can't track down a copy of the actual order. The current FCC regs (?97.309) are more recent, and lump RTTY and "data emission" together, allowing ITA2, AMTOR, or ASCII, or, with additional limitations, "an unspecified digital code". I suppose I could use EBCDIC, FIELDATA, or the IBM Stretch character code, as long as I didn't use it for the purpose of obscuring the meaning of the communications, or to communicate with a station in a country with which the US doesn't have an agreement allowing those codes to be used. But the 5 level machines that were used over > here tend to be Creeds (Creed 7s, 75s and 444s mostly). > I'm told that Teletype models 15, 19, and 28 were very common here. I've mostly seen models 15 and 28. I've only once seen a mdoel 32 (ITA2 five-level version of model 33). I've seen some Kleinschmidt teleprinters, but I've never seen a Creed. From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Feb 16 03:02:08 2017 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 20:02:08 +1100 Subject: How I came to vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: <01983ab2-1714-9f4f-d022-16de000d1bff@hachti.de> Message-ID: <83AF2505-986C-4A7C-BCBB-8875CBF6C8CD@kerberos.davies.net.au> > On 15 Feb 2017, at 21:24, SPC wrote: > > That's fine, Philipp (at least for me). > > Thanks for share this with us. > > Kind Regards > Sergio Pedraja Me too although I?m green with envy Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 03:07:10 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 02:07:10 -0700 Subject: Amateur Radio use of Teleprinters (was Re: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wrote: > The FCC order authorizing Amateur Radio use of ASCII went into effect in > March of 1980, but at the moment I can't track down a copy of the actual > order. > Found it. "Deregulation of Part 97 of the Rules Regarding Emissions Authorized in the Amateur Service", Third Report and Order, Docket No. 20777, 45 Fed. Reg. 8990-8992, published February 11, 1980, effective March 17, 1980. PDF of the order: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/ham/ascii/fcc-20777-ascii-1980.pdf Replaces entirety of ?97.69 "Digital Transmissions". Doesn't use the term RTTY. Doesn't make any general distinction between ITA2 and ASCII, except in details of baud rates, emission types, and frequency shifts. Allows ITA2 at 60, 67, 75, or 100 WPM (45, 50 56.25, or 75 bauds). Allows ASCII with F1 emission at no more than 300 bauds between 3.5 and 21.25 MHz, with F1, F2, or A2 emission at no more than 1200 bauds between 28 and 225 MHz, and F1, F2 or A2 emission at no more than 19.6 kilobauds above 420 MHz. The requirements have been further relaxed since that time. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Feb 16 07:59:22 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 08:59:22 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <869dc308-5400-7a4f-09f5-c60d00d22a3b@hachti.de> <57f7f3b7-980a-1a99-417b-cb2c74f3ab89@hachti.de> Message-ID: <5BDA0E89-613E-4444-9AF4-D905669DF469@comcast.net> > On Feb 16, 2017, at 12:40 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Over here, the only Teletypes we generally see are Model 33s. Even the >> Model >> 35 is very uncommon, > > > In my experience, it's the same in the US: the model 33 has always been > MUCH more common than the 35. Every model 35 I actually saw in service > back in the day was a system console, not for "end users". Presumably it > was desired for the system console to be a heavy-duty and high-reliability > device, and the model 35 was built like a battleship. Actually, even better > than that: it was built like a model 28! I first saw a model 35 as a computer terminal in Holland, not sure what computer (it showed up in an Open House demonstration). But yes, model 33 was far more common. Presumably because of being far cheaper, and "good enough". They were rated for intermittent duty, and sure enough, when used intensely in college timesharing setups they tended to fall apart. > ... > I used the model 33 a huge amount from 1977 to 1979, but from 1979 to 1982 > I mostly used the DEC LA36 DECwriter II and various CRT terminals. The LA36 was an excellent machine. Unlike the LA30, with its atrocious keyboard and a print mechanism that jammed about every 20th carriage return. > ... > OK, we do see BRPE >> punches from time to time. > > > I'd really like to get one of those! I remember my father used them in his lab, to capture experimental data for subsequent processing. Nice machines. The most amazing catch would be a Soroban punch, those apparently could go at 200 or 400 bytes per second (vs. BRPE at around 120 or so). paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 08:32:29 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 09:32:29 -0500 Subject: Amateur Radio use of Teleprinters (was Re: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 3:30 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I'm told that Teletype models 15, 19, and 28 were very common here. I've > mostly seen models 15 and 28. I've only once seen a mdoel 32 (ITA2 > five-level version of model 33). I'm helping restore a Model 19 with a friend (he's a WW II re-enactor and he does Signal Corps stuff). That's the only 5-level stuff I've touched. I did see a Model 28 in Antarctica that had been there since the 60s... http://antarcticdispatches.blogspot.com/2014/03/science-post-cosray.html ... and its bit bucket... https://www.polartrec.com/files/resize/members/eric-thuma/images/bit_bucket_copy-500x667.jpg -ethan From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 10:17:27 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 16:17:27 +0000 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <5BDA0E89-613E-4444-9AF4-D905669DF469@comcast.net> References: <869dc308-5400-7a4f-09f5-c60d00d22a3b@hachti.de> <57f7f3b7-980a-1a99-417b-cb2c74f3ab89@hachti.de> <5BDA0E89-613E-4444-9AF4-D905669DF469@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > The LA36 was an excellent machine. Unlike the LA30, with its atrocious keyboard > and a print mechanism that jammed about every 20th carriage return. I have to disagree with that. The LA36 is horrible. There is a major design misfeature. There is no separate home sensor. Instead the carriage is run into the left end-stop, the motor stalls, and the logic detects this by a lack of pulses from the rotary encoder on the motor spindle. Now, if the (weak, plastic) key in the carriage belt sprocket breaks, the motor doesn't stall. It keeps turning, slowly, with the spindle slipping in the sprocket. The logic sees encoder pulses and keeps it turning. But the load is excessive for the motor, which generally gets hot enough to burn the enamel off the windings. Do NOT ask how I found this out. Suffice it to say a friend and I had to rewind the motor in an LA36 at the university we were studying at. -tony From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Feb 16 13:44:24 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 19:44:24 +0000 Subject: confirm e3191f334ef584df40dccf9737f54f4dcd016a5d In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of cctalk-request at classiccmp.org [cctalk-request at classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 9:31 AM To: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Subject: confirm e3191f334ef584df40dccf9737f54f4dcd016a5d ______________________________________________ There was some talk a short time ago about accounts being shutdown because of excessive bounces. Well, a couple days ago I got one of these messages. I have not stopped receiving messages from the list. I think there is a problem with the mailing list software. :-) bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Feb 16 13:53:06 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 19:53:06 +0000 Subject: Old DEC Documentation Message-ID: Anybody interested in a copy of: Communications Options Minireference Manual (EK-CMINI-RM-001) USPS Flat Rate would be under $15.00 Throw in a couple more fo the trouble of taking to the PO and it's yours. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Feb 16 14:49:16 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 20:49:16 +0000 Subject: DEC Documentation Message-ID: Lower that postage estimate. It fits in a padded envelope. bill From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 15:48:13 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 15:48:13 -0600 Subject: confirm e3191f334ef584df40dccf9737f54f4dcd016a5d In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are you subscribed to both mailing lists? On Feb 16, 2017 1:46 PM, "Bill Gunshannon" wrote: > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org [cctalk-request at classiccmp.org] > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 9:31 AM > To: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com > Subject: confirm e3191f334ef584df40dccf9737f54f4dcd016a5d > > ______________________________________________ > > There was some talk a short time ago about accounts being shutdown because > of excessive bounces. Well, a couple days ago I got one of these messages. > I have not stopped receiving messages from the list. I think there is a > problem > with the mailing list software. :-) > > bill > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Feb 16 16:08:18 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 22:08:18 +0000 Subject: confirm e3191f334ef584df40dccf9737f54f4dcd016a5d In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Adrian Stoness [tdk.knight at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:48 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: confirm e3191f334ef584df40dccf9737f54f4dcd016a5d Are you subscribed to both mailing lists? __________________________________________ Yes. But so far I have only posted to this one. bill From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 16 17:39:11 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 15:39:11 -0800 Subject: 38-52mm Adapter for B&L Stereozoom -- Cheap Message-ID: My B&L Stereozoom microscope didn't have any protection for the objective lens assembly. It uses a rather oddball 38 mm threaded mount. I thought that those with the same scope might be interested in the adapter being sold as eBay 401250097157. It fits the 38mm thread on the B&L perfoectly and adapts it to a standard 52mm filter thread. Cheap--less that $3 shipped. Just got it today and it fits like a glove. FWIW --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Thu Feb 16 18:02:58 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 18:02:58 -0600 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> Message-ID: <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> First of all THANKS. I hope this works out. Some thoughts: It looks like you have a JTAG connector on there - please keep that. The CPLD you had on the last board, XC9572XL is a bit long in the tooth, perhaps? Would you expect to use that one again, or a newer chip? An area with place to mount, say, a 40 pin header (2x20) or the like, on one edge of the board, with a set of places where one could jumper those pins to a set of I/O pins of the CPLD/FPGA would be really cool. A spot where one could mount an Arduino compatible shield - again with no actual connections, but a place where one could jumper them to some I/O pins on the CPLD/FPGA might be really cool. (e.g., using the CPLD to run an SPI bus connection to a shield). In short, ways that folks could take your basic board and make it possible to do other things with it could increase the value of the board enormously. But, these are JUST SUGGESTIONS / THOUGHTS I am throwing out. I would not be at all disappointed if such things were not done. You might consider KiCAD as an alternative to Eagle. It works pretty darned well. JRJ On 2/13/2017 9:00 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > it has taken a while but I'm now actively planning to shift out another > batch of OmniUSB boards. The last batch is sold out for a long time and > I've been asked for more from time to time. > > As some of you might remember, it's a cool device to connect your > pdp8/f/a/m/e to the modern world using lightning fast USB. > > The originial board has it's website here: > > http://pdp8.hachti.de/projects/omni_usb/ > > The new board will do the same, perhaps even more. > > - the USB connector will be replaced by a mini (NOT micro!!) USB connector. > - The connector position and cable routing will be improved. > - The board will be shorter. But it will come by default with a laser > cut acrylic extension that makes it full size again. > > There will be at least those options to buy: > > - Kit (board + all parts) > - Kit+ (board + all parts, SMT already assembled) > > Possible: > - complete version - Everything soldered and tested. > - discount for omitting acrylic extender > > I cannot guarantee that I can deliver fully assembled boards > (regulations) and would be able to do that only if there's a reasonable > number of interested buyers. > > If have set up a doodle poll to get a realistic picture of the interest > in the board/kit/device: > > http://doodle.com/poll/d7y524mvyfezqp9w > > PLEASE take the minute and fill in your name (ideally that I can > recognise you) and check the options which most precisely match your > demands. > > PLEASE be as honest as possible as I will base my decisions IF and for > which PRICE I can run the show. > > Thank you!!! > > Kind regards > > Philipp :-) > > > > > > > > From cctalk at snarc.net Thu Feb 16 23:53:07 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 00:53:07 -0500 Subject: VCF West is August 5-6 Message-ID: <9945956a-fbd0-9758-ec76-aa22b7dc766b@snarc.net> What's that, you say? You want to start planning for Vintage Computer Festival West XII? Well mark your calendar!!! The show will be held August 5-6 at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. Web page is here: http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west-xi/ ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From hachti at hachti.de Fri Feb 17 10:01:22 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 17:01:22 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> Message-ID: On 02/17/2017 01:02 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > First of all THANKS. I hope this works out. ?!? > It looks like you have a JTAG connector on there - please keep that. Of course - it's needed for initial programming. > The CPLD you had on the last board, XC9572XL is a bit long in the tooth, > perhaps? Would you expect to use that one again, or a newer chip? I will use it again. It was already old when I decided to use it. It has 5V tolerant inputs. > An area with place to mount, say, a 40 pin header (2x20) or the like, on > one edge of the board, with a set of places where one could jumper those > pins to a set of I/O pins of the CPLD/FPGA would be really cool. As far as I just remember, there are no substantial IO pins left. And there is no FPGA. > A spot where one could mount an Arduino compatible shield - again with > no actual connections, but a place where one could jumper them to some > I/O pins on the CPLD/FPGA might be really cool. (e.g., using the CPLD > to run an SPI bus connection to a shield). No support for Arduino. Unter no circumstanced. I really don't like Arduino except for: - I can get extremely cheap AVR boards ("nano") for arbitrary use. - Young people stay on the surface of microcontroller programming. So there is less professional competition. > In short, ways that folks could take your basic board and make it > possible to do other things with it could increase the value of the > board enormously. Probably. But I want to create/use/provide a simple tool that does exactly one thing perfectly. > You might consider KiCAD as an alternative to Eagle. It works pretty > darned well. Why should I? If you look at the board's size you probably see that it cannot be made using the free version. I own a paid Eagle 7 license. Why should I throw that away? Started to use Eagle as a child. Have my own libraries and footprints. Got used to the odds. And I won't use that KiCAD thing. It smells too much like dumb Arduino folks. And I do not want to share to much with that community. I am an engineer and no Arduino fool... Even if KiCAD was a really great program, it would still have the smell of the copy-and-paste-maker-arduino-blinky-blinky-community. Sorry for the rant but.... Arduino is just fubar.. If I would migrate to another EDA tool, I would probably migrate up to something more elaborated than Eagle or KiCAD :-) Kind regards Philipp From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 10:21:22 2017 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 10:21:22 -0600 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:01 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Why should I? If you look at the board's size you probably see that it > cannot be made using the free version. I own a paid Eagle 7 license. Why > should I throw that away? Started to use Eagle as a child. Have my own > libraries and footprints. Got used to the odds. And I won't use that KiCAD > thing. It smells too much like dumb Arduino folks. And I do not want to > share to much with that community. > I am an engineer and no Arduino fool... Even if KiCAD was a really great > program, it would still have the smell of the copy-and-paste-maker-arduino-b > linky-blinky-community. > > Sorry for the rant but.... Arduino is just fubar.. > > If I would migrate to another EDA tool, I would probably migrate up to > something more elaborated than Eagle or KiCAD :-) > KiCad has no affiliation to Arduino; in fact, it's being heavily maintained by CERN. I don't suppose you've had a need to being an Eagle guy, but have you tried out KiCad before? With the licensing model Eagle has just moved to, alternatives like KiCad sure seem attractive. Why are you bent out of shape over the Arduino community? It seems clear to me that teenagers growing up with them will outgrow the language and hardware limitations and move onto more advanced things before starting their careers. I think one could make a decent analogy to BASIC on many 8-bit microcomputers from decades past. Kyle From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Feb 17 10:55:18 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 10:55:18 -0600 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> Message-ID: <58A72AF6.2070606@pico-systems.com> On 02/17/2017 10:01 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > > > >> The CPLD you had on the last board, XC9572XL is a bit >> long in the tooth, >> perhaps? Would you expect to use that one again, or a >> newer chip? > I will use it again. It was already old when I decided to > use it. It has 5V tolerant inputs. > It seems that Xilinx has made some hints that they do NOT plan to retire the XC95xxXL series any time soon. If they do, the CoolRunner II family can be used with the addition of one more voltage regulator. The internal architecture is more FPGA-like, but the Xilinx tools hide all of that in almost all cases. The 9500 architecture is good for recognizing long address fields, but otherwise is not all that efficient for general logic. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Feb 17 11:05:50 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 11:05:50 -0600 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> Message-ID: <58A72D6E.4030909@pico-systems.com> On 02/17/2017 10:21 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > KiCad has no affiliation to Arduino; in fact, it's being heavily maintained > by CERN. I don't suppose you've had a need to being an Eagle guy, but have > you tried out KiCad before? With the licensing model Eagle has just moved > to, alternatives like KiCad sure seem attractive. I have a paid license for Protel 99SE, which is a very powerful, reliable and intuitive (to me, anyway) package. Maybe intuitive because I've been using it so long. (Too long??) Anyway, a guy gave me a design to manufacture made with KiCad, so I installed it. Well, it certainly is not as intuitive to ME as Protel, but maybe I just need to use it more. But, even as of a couple of years ago, it showed a LOT of promise! I'm most concerned about the reliability of the design rules check and layout vs. schematic. If these checks miss errors, I REALLY don't want to use the package. I know Protel got it right, in hundreds of board designs, it has never once let me down. Not totally sure KiCad gives that level of coverage, so I'm just being cautious. KiCad is open source, so they can't ever pull the plug on users, or just go out of business and bury the source code. But, setting up a virtual machine to run an old Windows version just so I can run Protel is a bit of a hassle. KiCad runs on Linux quite well (as well as Windows, too.) I think with a couple more years of development, KiCad might be as good as Protel. (KiCad seems to still require picking operations from a menu, Protel has user-configurable keyboard shortcuts that are a big help. Maybe KiCad has that and I just need to learn them.) Jon From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Feb 17 11:16:35 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 18:16:35 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> Message-ID: <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: [..] > > > You might consider KiCAD as an alternative to Eagle. It works pretty > > darned well. > Why should I? If you look at the board's size you probably see that it > cannot be made using the free version. I own a paid Eagle 7 license. Why > should I throw that away? Started to use Eagle as a child. Have my own > libraries and footprints. Got used to the odds. And I won't use that > KiCAD thing. It smells too much like dumb Arduino folks. And I do not > want to share to much with that community. > I am an engineer and no Arduino fool... Even if KiCAD was a really great > program, it would still have the smell of the > copy-and-paste-maker-arduino-blinky-blinky-community. > > Sorry for the rant but.... Arduino is just fubar.. > > If I would migrate to another EDA tool, I would probably migrate up to > something more elaborated than Eagle or KiCAD :-) > > > Kind regards > > Philipp I don't have a problem with your arduino related point of view, but I'm sure you never heard from the push and shove router that kicad implements? (take a look at youtube!) If you have used it once, egale would look a lot like copy-and-paste-maker-arduino-blinky-blinky-community-thingy.. People at the swiss CERN are developing it, for sure they only know how to make arduinos, dnon't they? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Feb 17 11:46:10 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 09:46:10 -0800 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> > On Feb 17, 2017, at 9:16 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > [..] >> >>> You might consider KiCAD as an alternative to Eagle. It works pretty >>> darned well. >> Why should I? If you look at the board's size you probably see that it >> cannot be made using the free version. I own a paid Eagle 7 license. Why >> should I throw that away? Started to use Eagle as a child. Have my own >> libraries and footprints. Got used to the odds. And I won't use that >> KiCAD thing. It smells too much like dumb Arduino folks. And I do not >> want to share to much with that community. >> I am an engineer and no Arduino fool... Even if KiCAD was a really great >> program, it would still have the smell of the >> copy-and-paste-maker-arduino-blinky-blinky-community. >> >> Sorry for the rant but.... Arduino is just fubar.. >> >> If I would migrate to another EDA tool, I would probably migrate up to >> something more elaborated than Eagle or KiCAD :-) >> >> >> Kind regards >> >> Philipp > > > I don't have a problem with your arduino related point of view, but I'm > sure you never heard from the push and shove router that kicad implements? > (take a look at youtube!) > > If you have used it once, egale would look a lot like > copy-and-paste-maker-arduino-blinky-blinky-community-thingy.. > > People at the swiss CERN are developing it, for sure they only know how > to make arduinos, dnon't they? > Just to add my $0.02 to this conversation. I?m an Eagle (professional) user for well over a decade. The issue the Phillip mentioned about footprints and designs is real. On my last design I decided to give KiCAD a try and quickly realized that the large libraries of parts and footprints I have would have to be completely re-done. That made the bar too high to switch. Most of my designs use footprints that I have developed or are readily available. Also, many new parts vendors supply Eagle libraries for their parts so I don?t have to develop them. I haven?t seen anything for KiCAD regarding that?which means even more work for me. Tool lock-in is a real phenomenon not just for the ?wet-ware? but also for all of the parts libraries that exist for the tools (either vendor, community or self developed). So without a support infrastructure for parts libraries, a tool is just a ?toy? regardless of how good the underlying implementation is. In terms of community supplied libraries, Eagle has those too and I?ve found that by and large they are junk (it?s easier/quicker for me to create a part on my own than to try and figure out what bizarre thing the contributor actually did and I still need to check it anyway). While I haven?t seen a lot of KiCAD contributed libraries (that?s part of the problem) I have no expectation that they would be better than the Eagle contributed libraries. TTFN - Guy From alan at alanlee.org Fri Feb 17 12:07:53 2017 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 13:07:53 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Being a long time Eagle user, I'll chime in too. Most responses from KiCAD advocates miss the mark on the fundamental issue. Sure the features are converging and I have no doubt KiCAD will catch-up. It has already surpassed Eagle in many feature areas. But people who routinely spend dozens of hours a week doing eCAD work (> than a hobbyist), use their tool as a super-efficient extension of their workflow intent. To suddenly switch to a tool with an entirely different workflow or UI mechanics is like a right handed person trying to relearn how to do everything left handed. It's takes a really long frustrating time. Maybe even longer than if you didn't know Eagle, Altium, Cadence, DS5000, etc to begin with. My hope is the KiCAD community would see this as an opportunity to significantly grow the user base by adding conversion tools and UI improvements designed to help new-comers from other tools transition more easily; even prioritize them short-term over additional new features. Even vi and emacs have mutual key-binding compatibility modes designed to ease transitions - and the user base couldn't be more divided on pride. I find the KiCAD UI 'clunky' and it really isn't. It's only clunky coming from my Eagle point of view. -Alan On 2017-02-17 12:46, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > Just to add my $0.02 to this conversation. I'm an Eagle (professional) user for > well over a decade. The issue the Phillip mentioned about footprints and designs > is real. > > On my last design I decided to give KiCAD a try and quickly realized that the > large libraries of parts and footprints I have would have to be completely re-done. > That made the bar too high to switch. Most of my designs use footprints that I have > developed or are readily available. Also, many new parts vendors supply Eagle > libraries for their parts so I don't have to develop them. I haven't seen anything > for KiCAD regarding that...which means even more work for me. > > Tool lock-in is a real phenomenon not just for the "wet-ware" but also for all of the > parts libraries that exist for the tools (either vendor, community or self developed). > So without a support infrastructure for parts libraries, a tool is just a "toy" regardless > of how good the underlying implementation is. > > In terms of community supplied libraries, Eagle has those too and I've found that > by and large they are junk (it's easier/quicker for me to create a part on my own > than to try and figure out what bizarre thing the contributor actually did and I still > need to check it anyway). While I haven't seen a lot of KiCAD contributed libraries > (that's part of the problem) I have no expectation that they would be better than > the Eagle contributed libraries. > > TTFN - Guy From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Feb 17 13:35:38 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 14:35:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! Message-ID: <20170217193538.6646B18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson Dave Bridgham and I have been using KiCAD for our stuff, and we're pretty happy with it. Here are a few bits: this is just data, I'm not trying to convince anyone to use it - the points about 'complex tools one is already very used to' are very good ones. > I'm most concerned about the reliability of the design rules check > ... > If these checks miss errors, I REALLY don't want to use the package. I'm not quite sure what's covered here, but I have used the checker on my admittedly-tiny projects, and been happy with it. > and layout vs. schematic. Again, Dave has used it to lay out at least one moderately-sized card, and seems to have been happy with the results. > (KiCad seems to still require picking operations from a menu, Protel > has user-configurable keyboard shortcuts that are a big help. Maybe > KiCad has that and I just need to learn them.) KiCAD does have keyboard shortcuts. I don't know if they are configurable. > From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > In terms of community supplied libraries, Eagle has those too and I've > found that by and large they are junk (it's easier/quicker for me to > create a part on my own > ... While I haven't seen a lot of KiCAD contributed libraries (that's > part of the problem) KiCAD came with a fairly large set of user-contributed libraries. For various reasons (including working with archaic parts), I've wound up adding quite a few, but i've usally found it pretty easy to modify an exising part from the libraries, to get what I need. YMMV. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 17 14:05:43 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 15:05:43 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <20170217193538.6646B18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170217193538.6646B18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4C517483-8A2D-42A7-B0C2-FA8C93D65320@comcast.net> > On Feb 17, 2017, at 2:35 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > ... >> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > >> In terms of community supplied libraries, Eagle has those too and I've >> found that by and large they are junk (it's easier/quicker for me to >> create a part on my own >> ... While I haven't seen a lot of KiCAD contributed libraries (that's >> part of the problem) > > KiCAD came with a fairly large set of user-contributed libraries. For various > reasons (including working with archaic parts), I've wound up adding quite a > few, but i've usally found it pretty easy to modify an exising part from the > libraries, to get what I need. YMMV. One thing I learned with Eagle (an old version -- I started with it on DOS, with a physical license dongle) is that you can define library stuff via scripting. This is very helpful when defining 120-pin PCB footprints. I don't remember precisely, but I think you can export libraries from Eagle in some sort of text form. If that's true, then it would be SMOP to write a KiCAD library importer. The key question is whether the library semantics are compatible. EAGLE is rather nice in the way it handles schematic symbols vs. footprints and all that. I used EAGLE long ago for one project, and more recently for another, but I haven't found it sufficiently useful to buy it a second time to get the non-free version. Not that I really need the autorouter, it isn't really all that useful. But still, it's pretty steep for a hobbyist. I discovered KiCAD, haven't used it yet, should give it a try. One nice aspect of EAGLE is that a number of PCB fab shops will accept EAGLE *.BRD files directly, rather than asking for Gerber and drill files. paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 14:27:36 2017 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 14:27:36 -0600 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <4C517483-8A2D-42A7-B0C2-FA8C93D65320@comcast.net> References: <20170217193538.6646B18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4C517483-8A2D-42A7-B0C2-FA8C93D65320@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > I don't remember precisely, but I think you can export libraries from > Eagle in some sort of text form. If that's true, then it would be SMOP to > write a KiCAD library importer. The key question is whether the library > semantics are compatible. EAGLE is rather nice in the way it handles > schematic symbols vs. footprints and all that. > There seem to be a few projects out there that do that. Here's one: https://github.com/lachlanA/eagle-to-kicad I recall there also being a wizard utility for creating pad arrays and such in KiCad; haven't played with that too much yet. > I used EAGLE long ago for one project, and more recently for another, but > I haven't found it sufficiently useful to buy it a second time to get the > non-free version. Not that I really need the autorouter, it isn't really > all that useful. But still, it's pretty steep for a hobbyist. I > discovered KiCAD, haven't used it yet, should give it a try. > Autorouters anywhere seem like they're pretty much garbage. > One nice aspect of EAGLE is that a number of PCB fab shops will accept > EAGLE *.BRD files directly, rather than asking for Gerber and drill files. OSH Park, who I've used the most (Advanced Circuits second), will now accept KiCad project files, which is handy. The automated board preview lets you quickly verify that things are correct before hitting "order." I recently designed a board with matched-length differential traces. KiCad made that process very easy. Push 'n' shove routing, as mentioned here before, is also incredibly nice. Kyle From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Feb 17 15:36:16 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 22:36:16 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20170217213616.GA12032@beast.freibergnet.de> Alan Hightower wrote: > > > Being a long time Eagle user, I'll chime in too. Most responses from > KiCAD advocates miss the mark on the fundamental issue. Sure the > features are converging and I have no doubt KiCAD will catch-up. It has > already surpassed Eagle in many feature areas. But people who routinely > spend dozens of hours a week doing eCAD work (> than a hobbyist), use > their tool as a super-efficient extension of their workflow intent. To > suddenly switch to a tool with an entirely different workflow or UI > mechanics is like a right handed person trying to relearn how to do > everything left handed. It's takes a really long frustrating time. Maybe > even longer than if you didn't know Eagle, Altium, Cadence, DS5000, etc > to begin with. > > My hope is the KiCAD community would see this as an opportunity to > significantly grow the user base by adding conversion tools and UI > improvements designed to help new-comers from other tools transition > more easily; even prioritize them short-term over additional new > features. Even vi and emacs have mutual key-binding compatibility modes > designed to ease transitions - and the user base couldn't be more > divided on pride. > Who should made those tools if not the people that needs them ..eg. you? And why you think should KiCad priorize your wishes over new features or the others? YOU want this, do it. I'm not a full time layouter but that KiCad thing fits my needs very well. I can do commercial stuff w/o pay thousend Dollars to someone to have a software handy (not for owning it like before Autodesk was the owner) that connects every now and then to a license Server on the net... ..and is doing what exactly? Nothanks. > I find the KiCAD UI 'clunky' and it really isn't. It's only clunky > coming from my Eagle point of view. > > -Alan For sure there are many things still todo for the KiCad people, but this nose high attitude "thats vor arduino people only" is the wrong thing for sure.. (german saying: Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall) It could do much much more and much better than what you pay for it. I had a KiCad development version for approx a year running on my FreeBSD Host that I'm using for my delay work, updated for a week or so and I can say de biggest difference to the previous version is a well sorted and big footprint libraryw with many additional 3D Extensions! Maybe you should have a look again. I've used the predecessor of KiCad's PCBnew (simply PCB) before KiCad, it had no Schematics Editor but could use Netlists, wasn't restriced in PCB sizes and could do 6 layers (more than I ever would need). I've done footprints on my own in the past..so what? Do you want to know how eagles UI feels from my point of view? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From chd at chdickman.com Fri Feb 17 16:47:39 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 17:47:39 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> Message-ID: Philipp, On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > On 02/17/2017 01:02 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> In short, ways that folks could take your basic board and make it >> possible to do other things with it could increase the value of the >> board enormously. I tend to agree with Jay here. It would be great to have a way of expanding the board. From your standpoint, the advantage might be larger volumes. I was ready to order and then thought about what I would do with it. I have a high speed serial interface (RX8E) and that works for me. What I would like to have is a way to experiment with some other peripherals that I will never have and see how to virtualize them in an FPGA or CPLD. > Probably. But I want to create/use/provide a simple tool that does exactly > one thing perfectly. Of course that is your prerogative. I respect that this is real and not some paper design that gets discussed forever and comes to nothing. I also see all that board area with nothing on it and think why not populate it with a layout for some other things. What I am wishing for are Omnibus and Unibus adapters to an FPGA. > Kind regards > > Philipp Regards, -chuck http://www.chdickman.com/ From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 16:47:58 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 15:47:58 -0700 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <4C517483-8A2D-42A7-B0C2-FA8C93D65320@comcast.net> References: <20170217193538.6646B18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4C517483-8A2D-42A7-B0C2-FA8C93D65320@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I don't remember precisely, but I think you can export libraries from > Eagle in some sort of text form. That was possible with Eagle 5 (and probably earlier), but is no longer necessary since Eagle 6, as the native file formats (schematic, board, and library) are now XML. This was a huge advance for anyone who wanted to write tools to manipulate the files. I've both edited the files by hand, and written Python programs to generate and manipulate Eagle files. Of course, KiCAD uses open file formats, so I'm not touting that as an advantage of Eagle over KiCAD, but it is an advantage of Eagle over other proprietary EDA packages. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Feb 17 19:50:50 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 19:50:50 -0600 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <20170217193538.6646B18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170217193538.6646B18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <58A7A87A.8020508@pico-systems.com> On 02/17/2017 01:35 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jon Elson > > > > > I'm most concerned about the reliability of the design rules check > > ... > > If these checks miss errors, I REALLY don't want to use the package. > > I'm not quite sure what's covered here, but I have used the checker on my > admittedly-tiny projects, and been happy with it. > > > and layout vs. schematic. > > Again, Dave has used it to lay out at least one moderately-sized card, and > seems to have been happy with the results. I do some 4-layer and 6-layer boards, where the possibility for things to get shorted together multiply, and it is easy to overlook it when manually checking. I can't say about KiCad as I have not done anything over 2 layers with it. > > > (KiCad seems to still require picking operations from a menu, Protel > > has user-configurable keyboard shortcuts that are a big help. Maybe > > KiCad has that and I just need to learn them.) > > KiCAD does have keyboard shortcuts. I don't know if they are configurable. EVERYTHING on Protel is configurable, you can add items to the menus, create the picture for the menu item, etc. As for libraries, I really don't trust ANYBODY else's library parts, at least until I've checked them. Protel's are actually pretty bad, by the way, so most of them are now MY parts, not theirs. Jon From cube1 at charter.net Fri Feb 17 21:07:06 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 21:07:06 -0600 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> Message-ID: <0eebc8f5-9483-7b72-7397-8a6ef491b780@charter.net> On 2/17/2017 10:01 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > > On 02/17/2017 01:02 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> First of all THANKS. I hope this works out. > ?!? > The thanks was for your effort. The hope that it works out was to say that I hope that you decide to make some more and sell them, which seems uncertain at this point. > >> An area with place to mount, say, a 40 pin header (2x20) or the like, on >> one edge of the board, with a set of places where one could jumper those >> pins to a set of I/O pins of the CPLD/FPGA would be really cool. > As far as I just remember, there are no substantial IO pins left. > And there is no FPGA. I knew you had used an CPLD in the first version, but I had no idea what you intended to do for the next one. That was why I wrote CPLD/FPGA. > >> A spot where one could mount an Arduino compatible shield - again with >> no actual connections, but a place where one could jumper them to some >> I/O pins on the CPLD/FPGA might be really cool. (e.g., using the CPLD >> to run an SPI bus connection to a shield). > No support for Arduino. Unter no circumstanced. I really don't like > Arduino except for: > > - I can get extremely cheap AVR boards ("nano") for arbitrary use. > That was why I specifically wrote *shield*. There are a lot of SPI interface boards out there, and if there were a little room in the chip to handle an Omnibus/SPI interface, a lot could conceivably be done with it. Examples: SD Cards, Ethernet and so on. >> In short, ways that folks could take your basic board and make it >> possible to do other things with it could increase the value of the >> board enormously. > Probably. But I want to create/use/provide a simple tool that does > exactly one thing perfectly. I understand, and have no problem with that as a philosophy. > >> You might consider KiCAD as an alternative to Eagle. It works pretty >> darned well. > Why should I? If you look at the board's size you probably see that it > cannot be made using the free version. I own a paid Eagle 7 license. Why > should I throw that away? Started to use Eagle as a child. Have my own > libraries and footprints. Got used to the odds. And I won't use that > KiCAD thing. It smells too much like dumb Arduino folks. And I do not > want to share to much with that community. The why was that, before today, I had not realized that there might be tools to convert from Eagle to KiCAD, which made Eagle files of no use to me. As others have since pointed out, KiCAD has nothing whatsoever to do with Arduino. Others have addressed its strengths and weaknesses. In my case, the comment stemmed from perhaps wanting to take you hardware design, and adapt it for other purposes, without having to start from scratch. > > Kind regards > > Philipp > Thanks again. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Feb 18 00:03:19 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 22:03:19 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/70 by PiDP8/i maker Message-ID: <598b0744-7be5-5b5b-7a53-27da6931b250@jwsss.com> Sorry I don't recall his name, but wondering what the progress is on the 11/70 version of this. Raspberry pi, functional front panel with blink'n lights which functions like the 11/70. My back archives are in a bit of a scramble, so can't search it either, again apologies. thanks Jim From aswood at t-online.de Sat Feb 18 00:29:21 2017 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 07:29:21 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/70 by PiDP8/i maker In-Reply-To: <598b0744-7be5-5b5b-7a53-27da6931b250@jwsss.com> References: <598b0744-7be5-5b5b-7a53-27da6931b250@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <54F65E40-604A-4CC9-9C08-89B84D8049A8@t-online.de> http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8 > Am 18.02.2017 um 07:03 schrieb jim stephens : > > Sorry I don't recall his name, but wondering what the progress is on the 11/70 version of this. Raspberry pi, functional front panel with blink'n lights which functions like the 11/70. > > My back archives are in a bit of a scramble, so can't search it either, again apologies. > thanks > Jim > From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Feb 18 00:09:52 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 01:09:52 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/70 by PiDP8/i maker In-Reply-To: <598b0744-7be5-5b5b-7a53-27da6931b250@jwsss.com> References: <598b0744-7be5-5b5b-7a53-27da6931b250@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Sorry I don't recall his name Oscar Vermeulen > but wondering what the progress is on the > 11/70 version of this. Raspberry pi, functional front panel with > blink'n lights which functions like the 11/70. He's giving a class about both kits on Friday, March 31 and then exhibiting April 1+2 at VCF East. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Feb 18 01:58:10 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 23:58:10 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/70 by PiDP8/i maker In-Reply-To: <54F65E40-604A-4CC9-9C08-89B84D8049A8@t-online.de> References: <598b0744-7be5-5b5b-7a53-27da6931b250@jwsss.com> <54F65E40-604A-4CC9-9C08-89B84D8049A8@t-online.de> Message-ID: <1ad70744-e0a2-2897-ca6f-4260a540a0de@jwsss.com> Thanks for the replies, I found what I was looking for. The prototype @ VCF West last august was wonderful, and am glad he is finally getting the injection molds to work. The Vacuform he wants to do for the VT05 case, by the way can potentially be done with wood molds (if you are good @ woodworking), or if you are brave and have a case, you could probably construct a mold from an original by taking an impression off it and cleaning that up. I think with the molds at least around here in Orange County there are a number of shops doing vacuform type services for all sorts of things and could make the cases. Other locations w/o such as they have here might not have as many choices and might have to try doing their own manufacturing. (The VT05 discussion I'm commenting on is on the same discussion board as I received from Nigel Williams via a direct email reply). https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/pidp-8/uFkciMFuHHg Thanks Jim On 2/17/2017 10:29 PM, aswood at t-online.de wrote: > http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8 > >> Am 18.02.2017 um 07:03 schrieb jim stephens : >> >> Sorry I don't recall his name, but wondering what the progress is on the 11/70 version of this. Raspberry pi, functional front panel with blink'n lights which functions like the 11/70. >> >> My back archives are in a bit of a scramble, so can't search it either, again apologies. >> thanks >> Jim >> > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Feb 18 02:01:34 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 09:01:34 +0100 Subject: How I came to vintage computers In-Reply-To: <01983ab2-1714-9f4f-d022-16de000d1bff@hachti.de> References: <01983ab2-1714-9f4f-d022-16de000d1bff@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20170218080133.GC16529@Update.UU.SE> Fun read. I'd write my own story but it is much less exiting. Maybe some day you'll tell us about kiel and the PDP-10. /P On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:28:41PM +0100, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hey folks, > > after my OmniUSB-thread has gone down the teleprinter way... I'll start a > new thread. > > Did you now how I came to vintage computers? How I became some kind of > computer engineer? Probably not. It's so easy. Listen. Long story ahead. > > In 1999 I started to study computer science. Java and algorithms and all > that clean stuff. > One day in autumn 2000 I had that idea: I need a Fernschreiber > (=teleprinter)! I had nothing to do with that stuff. And I did no know how > it worked. I even did not remember having seen one. It was just that word > in my head. > So I bought my first Siemens T100 (still here in the house, two floors > below me). It was a machine with strange connectors which made awful noise > when connected to power. > So I went to the library and found a good book from 1934. That told me how > the teleprinter works. > I then somehow soldered a simple interface to connect that beast to the > parallel (!!!) port of my Linux server (the first hachti.de server was a > mainboard and a harddisk in the corner of my student home where we had > 10mbit LAN acess and fixed IP. I even did a DNS reverse mapping > philipp.vorstrasse.uni-bremen.de for my IP). > At that time all about programming I knew was Turbo Pascal, some Z80 > machine language (not assembly language, I programmed that beast in hex) > and a bit Java. I didn't even know much about Linux. The server back then > had been setup by someone else who was in need of a server. So he used it > as well. > I used the parallel port because I had an idea how to control the pins. I > knew that there was something ugly called serial port but I had not yet > made the connection that this was EXACTLY what I would have needed. > > To program that thing I needed some software. So I went to the bookstore at > noon. Will never forget that. Bought the O'Reilly Linux Kernel drivers book > (the one with the horse) and started to write my first C program ever. It > was a kernel module. The Kernel must have been Linux 2.2. It was > frustrating. But after a decent 30 hour nonstop session and hundreds of > reboots (haha, of my web and mail server which was also running X from time > to time) I really had some bitbang code which made the teleprinter say what > I wanted it to say. > I soon realised that with a multitasking OS like Linux I had the choice of > outputting correct data using busy wait in Kernel or outputting a mess when > the system gets under load. So I learned THAT lesson. > I decided that I needed something else. Because I had heard of other people > working with something called PIC Microcontroller, I bought one and a > programmer. And a breadboard. That evil 16f84 was sitting there on my desk, > naked, and did - nothing. > Getting the PIC up and running was pure horror. The hardest architecture > I've ever mastered. Since then I know: PIC is a load of complete shit! In > the end I failed to create a RS232 (had learned that in the meantime) to > teleprinter converter but had the idea to hook up two teleprinters using > modems. TelexPhone was born. The project (telexphone.net) was eventually > kind of stolen a few years later and continued to something still in > existence called i-telex over internet. That was never what I wanted > because the V21 modems (hard to find!!) are bit transparent. That means > that the teleprinters on both sides of the wire run as synchronous as with > a real wire between them. Very cool. The TelexPhone used a 16f876 with a > approx 2k cooperative multitasking system written entirely in assembly. It > was somehow modular. I managed to hook in modules with private main loop > and init parts by writing an impressive linker script which automated that. > Hey, I was 21 and did all that on my own! Please do NOT laugh! > > In the meantime someone somewhere invented something called eBay. And > because It's always good to have several different devices of the same type > and even better to have several examples of each those different devices, I > had an eBay search for "Lochstreifen" which means punched paper tape. Paper > tape for teleprinter, of course. > > One day I found an offer "Honeywell H316 minicomputer" which sounded > interesting. With paper tape. And no pictures. In Switzerland. A quick > search (probably already google? I used altavista.digital.com before) told > me that this could be an interesting toy. So I bought it for the incredible > amount of SFr 450. > Borrowed a car and went there. What I found was some messy stuff somewhere > on an uninsulated attic in Switzerland. Very dirty. I nearly turned down > the deal because it all looked so crappy. The seller admitted that he had > kept the stuff in that open attic since beginning of the 1980s. > I took it home. Had to drive TWICE from Bremen to Switzerland to get it > all. And it was a lucky buy. > After fiddling and cleaning around some weeks (never seen a minicomputer > before!) and reading the manuals, I found out that the PSU had a slight > problem which lead to unjustified shutdown. After I had solved that by > pulling out one of the security circuit card from the PSU, it powered up > the computer. And it magically worked instantly exactly as the manual told > me. That was in 2004. The H316 has never since then failed a single time. > Only issue are some contact issues with some memory cabling which may > happen after moving the machine. > Since then I have never had to switch a chip or a lamp or whatever. No > single failure. Not one failed CPU or memory test (except when I stress the > cable's card edge connector). It's so amazing that it became boring. > Programming in FORTRAN IV? Read the manual, punch tape, use the compiler, > linking loader and libraries as described in the manual - works. No secret > shit. And The machine came with all that software as nice source code > listing and binary paper tapes. > > While still wandering around on my Olympus of quality, I got a call by a > teleprinter friend who asked me if I would take a pdp8 computer. I thought > that bit of that infamous DEC mess could be a good counter example for my > H316's unlimited quality and went to pick up the pdp8. The day ended with > my yellow car completely stuffed with rusty pdp8/l, and lots of other > stuff. It were three machines. The tape drives and racks were fubar and > went to scrap. > > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/haul/dscn0750_full.jpg > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/haul/dscn0751_full.jpg > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/haul/dscn2109_full.jpg > > That was the beginning of the end. It just happened. Later 8/e, lab8/e etc. > And I had to admit that playing with Omnibus pdp8 is absolutely amazing! > It's a great toy! I think the pdp8/e (not straight-8, 8/i, /s or whatever) > is one of the greatest toys ever made. There are many games, it breaks > regularly while still giving you a chance to be satisfied after fixing it. > And it's so versatile! > And digging through those blurry schematics is a game in its own right! For > the Honeywell everything comes in high quality print, completely correct, > no derivations and workarounds. With DEC it can be an adventure to get an > overview over a hardware, its features, ECOs and FCOs and what else could > happen. > > Someday I also made a pdp8 in an FPGA. That was during the time I wanted to > be a chip designer. But the only place where I could to ASIC design (I did > my diploma thesis about a video generator FPGA design) was closed down > instead of hiring me. Thank you, Silicon Image! > > Currently I'm working for a Bosch/Denso joint venture doing Linux security > for car multimedia systems. In my free time I have just started to > construct a M?rklin model railroad digital decoder which I will try to sell > commercially (the competition use closed source PIC stuff. I use GPLv3 AVR > code). And I run a letterpress print shop with the biggest machine being > over 5 metric tons. > > In the printshop there's also an 8/e. And I have inherited a forklift. > > Don't know why I wrote this... Just wanted to write it. The teleprinter > discussion... It was the teleprinter discussion.... > > I never learned to get that paper... I just had the right toys. > > That's it for now :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From db at db.net Sat Feb 18 09:40:03 2017 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 10:40:03 -0500 Subject: Box of old books Message-ID: <20170218154003.GA41147@night.db.net> Wow from 2013 > I've put together a small box of old TTL books, computer references > of all sorts that I simply do not want anymore. If someone really > wants to collect old databooks instead of me sending this stuff out > to pulp let me know. It would be easiest if someone local to me here > in Ottawa could deal with it. I had a nibble from a local but somehow we never got the move arranged and it has grown to two smallish boxes now. I'll throw in DEC books and maybe a few other goodies. Toronto/Montreal is a possibility too if you can arrange a pickup. Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 18 11:44:42 2017 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 12:44:42 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <20170207224151.C594618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170207224151.C594618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <005c01d28a0e$afbbc760$0f335620$@gmail.com> Thanks for scanning this! No sign that Al has done-his-bit :-<. In the meantime is it possible to get an unlocked copy that I can OCR so that it's searchable? Should I infer that you purchased that $399 load of DEC modules? I debated, what with the J11 processor, but no FP-coprocessor and no documentation. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 5:42 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version So I was recently provided (thanks!) with a copy of the later rev of the PDP-11/24 Tech Manual (EK-11024-TM-003), which I have had scanned for a while now (waiting for a quite period on the list ;-), and is now available for upload here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-11024-TM-003.pdf (Bitsavers et al, please pick this up and distribute.) So it has an Appendix D, which described the -YA later rev of the CPU card (in which a bunch of gates were replaced with a couple of custom gate arrays. Does anyone have one of these? I'd love to get a photo of one, if so. Thanks! Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Feb 18 11:48:20 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 12:48:20 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <005c01d28a0e$afbbc760$0f335620$@gmail.com> References: <20170207224151.C594618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <005c01d28a0e$afbbc760$0f335620$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a2e26cd-0d40-8bea-372e-3c586018db14@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-02-18 12:44 PM, Paul Birkel wrote: > Thanks for scanning this! No sign that Al has done-his-bit :-<. > In the meantime is it possible to get an unlocked copy that I can OCR so > that it's searchable? Unlocked?!?!?!?! Sounds like yet another reason to publish multipage TIFF instead of or in addition to PDF. --Toby > > Should I infer that you purchased that $399 load of DEC modules? > I debated, what with the J11 processor, but no FP-coprocessor and no > documentation. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa > Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 5:42 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version > > So I was recently provided (thanks!) with a copy of the later rev of the > PDP-11/24 Tech Manual (EK-11024-TM-003), which I have had scanned for a > while > now (waiting for a quite period on the list ;-), and is now available for > upload here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-11024-TM-003.pdf > > (Bitsavers et al, please pick this up and distribute.) > > So it has an Appendix D, which described the -YA later rev of the CPU card > (in which a bunch of gates were replaced with a couple of custom gate > arrays. > Does anyone have one of these? I'd love to get a photo of one, if so. > > Thanks! > > Noel > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 18 11:50:17 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 09:50:17 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <8a2e26cd-0d40-8bea-372e-3c586018db14@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20170207224151.C594618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <005c01d28a0e$afbbc760$0f335620$@gmail.com> <8a2e26cd-0d40-8bea-372e-3c586018db14@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: PDF-A which is the reason it's not on bitsavers On 2/18/17 9:48 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2017-02-18 12:44 PM, Paul Birkel wrote: >> Thanks for scanning this! No sign that Al has done-his-bit :-<. >> In the meantime is it possible to get an unlocked copy that I can OCR so >> that it's searchable? > > Unlocked?!?!?!?! > From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 18 12:04:37 2017 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 13:04:37 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: References: <20170207224151.C594618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <005c01d28a0e$afbbc760$0f335620$@gmail.com> <8a2e26cd-0d40-8bea-372e-3c586018db14@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <006301d28a11$78145040$683cf0c0$@gmail.com> >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow >Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:50 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version > >PDF-A > >which is the reason it's not on bitsavers Thank you Al. It's not just me then who has heartburn with that format ... ---- From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 18 12:24:06 2017 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 10:24:06 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <006301d28a11$78145040$683cf0c0$@gmail.com> References: <20170207224151.C594618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <005c01d28a0e$afbbc760$0f335620$@gmail.com> <8a2e26cd-0d40-8bea-372e-3c586018db14@telegraphics.com.au> <006301d28a11$78145040$683cf0c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/18/2017 10:04 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow >> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:50 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version >> >> PDF-A >> >> which is the reason it's not on bitsavers > Thank you Al. It's not just me then who has heartburn with that format ... > > ---- > > I removed the /A format and put the copy up here: http://dvq.com/docs/EK-11024-TM-003.pdf Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 18 12:29:19 2017 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 13:29:19 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: References: <20170207224151.C594618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <005c01d28a0e$afbbc760$0f335620$@gmail.com> <8a2e26cd-0d40-8bea-372e-3c586018db14@telegraphics.com.au> <006301d28a11$78145040$683cf0c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006501d28a14$eb528b00$c1f7a100$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 1:24 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version On 2/18/2017 10:04 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow >> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:50 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version >> >> PDF-A >> >> which is the reason it's not on bitsavers > Thank you Al. It's not just me then who has heartburn with that format ... > > ---- I removed the /A format and put the copy up here: http://dvq.com/docs/EK-11024-TM-003.pdf Bob ----- Thanks! What tool did you use to do that? paul From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 18 12:36:57 2017 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 10:36:57 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <006501d28a14$eb528b00$c1f7a100$@gmail.com> References: <20170207224151.C594618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <005c01d28a0e$afbbc760$0f335620$@gmail.com> <8a2e26cd-0d40-8bea-372e-3c586018db14@telegraphics.com.au> <006301d28a11$78145040$683cf0c0$@gmail.com> <006501d28a14$eb528b00$c1f7a100$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e6434d4-e889-063c-a486-18b5f314e03a@sbcglobal.net> On 2/18/2017 10:29 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob > Rosenbloom > Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 1:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version > > On 2/18/2017 10:04 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al > Kossow >>> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:50 PM >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version >>> >>> PDF-A >>> >>> which is the reason it's not on bitsavers >> Thank you Al. It's not just me then who has heartburn with that format > .. >> ---- > I removed the /A format and put the copy up here: > http://dvq.com/docs/EK-11024-TM-003.pdf > > Bob > > ----- > > Thanks! What tool did you use to do that? > > paul > > Adobe Acrobat 9. Its buried down a few menus, and not obvious. Menus: Advanced then Preflight (at the bottom on mine) then PDF/A compliance then Remove PDF/A information Supposedly easier in Acrobat 10. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Feb 18 13:24:45 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 14:24:45 -0500 Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version Message-ID: <216f17.40143515.45d9f97d@aol.com> Adobe claims " PDF/A ? the ISO standard for long-term archiving" -I am confused about all the versions etc.. -which are good which are bad? -are there good programs for opening hesitant to open pdf file? - what is a good freeware PDF generator? / modifier? - are older versions of the reader better than the newer ones? -my HP scanner software makes PDF files eiher as graphics or as graphics with OCR -is my HP scanner making "good" pdf files that can be read into the future? Sorry if I seem confused on this... but I am! thanks for any help Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 2/18/2017 11:24:14 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, bobalan at sbcglobal.net writes: On 2/18/2017 10:04 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow >> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:50 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version >> >> PDF-A >> >> which is the reason it's not on bitsavers > Thank you Al. It's not just me then who has heartburn with that format ... > > ---- > > I removed the /A format and put the copy up here: http://dvq.com/docs/EK-11024-TM-003.pdf Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 18 15:03:53 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 13:03:53 -0800 Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <216f17.40143515.45d9f97d@aol.com> References: <216f17.40143515.45d9f97d@aol.com> Message-ID: <2a6b3118-386f-0d91-be1c-3ee0d014853f@sydex.com> On 02/18/2017 11:24 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > Adobe claims " PDF/A ? the ISO standard for long-term archiving" > > -I am confused about all the versions etc.. > -which are good which are bad? > -are there good programs for opening hesitant to open pdf file? > - what is a good freeware PDF generator? / modifier? > - are older versions of the reader better than the newer ones? > -my HP scanner software makes PDF files eiher as graphics or as graphics > with OCR > -is my HP scanner making "good" pdf files that can be read into the > future? > > Sorry if I seem confused on this... but I am! When scanning documents and converting to PDF, I've found that ghostscript works fine (under Linux). There's also a separate tiff to pdf converter available as a package. Some people use ImageMagick There are also a number of free online conversion websites; I've used a couple and they seem to be pretty decent. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Feb 18 15:55:22 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 16:55:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version Message-ID: <20170218215522.ABCC118C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > PDF-A Sorry, what's the issue with PDF/A? Since it's supposedly the 'archival' version, that's what I asked for; I wanted to maximize the lifetime of these things. What version of PDF should I be asking for? (I'm not doing the PDF'ing. The person who is is using Acrobat.) > which is the reason it's not on bitsavers Are any other of the things I've scanned that aren't up for the same reason? List here (first two sections): http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html Please let me know, and I'll get them re-PDF'd into an acceptable form. Noel From brain at jbrain.com Sat Feb 18 18:22:32 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 18:22:32 -0600 Subject: Reading PALs Message-ID: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> Seems like someone on list was willing and able to read PAL16L8s and give a try to some PAL16R4s... Is that person still on list and still interested? If so, please contact me off-list. I am trying to restore some C64 carts, and the PAL on my working unit is protected, so I cannot replicate. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 18 19:37:17 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 17:37:17 -0800 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> On 02/18/2017 04:22 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Seems like someone on list was willing and able to read PAL16L8s and > give a try to some PAL16R4s... Is that person still on list and > still interested? If so, please contact me off-list. > > I am trying to restore some C64 carts, and the PAL on my working unit > is protected, so I cannot replicate. If I'm the person (see my blog on vcfed.org), "reading" isn't exactly the right term. For purely combinatorial PALs, the technique is to determine the input and output assignments, then exhaustively run through all the combinations. Take that data and run it through a logic minimizer, such as Logic Friday and then use a bit of wetware to pick out tristate control lines and their corresponding outputs. Not foolproof by any means--and much less so, if the device is registered, but very often successful. A schematic showing the part application can be a godsend. --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Sat Feb 18 19:42:07 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 19:42:07 -0600 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2/18/2017 7:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If I'm the person (see my blog on vcfed.org), "reading" isn't exactly > the right term. Yes, of course. I meant running through the combinations of the inputs on the PAL and obtaining the outputs for each set of inputs, then attempting to minimize the logic (for combinatorial). REgistered is a more complex kettle of fish. > > > A schematic showing the part application can be a godsend. I am working on creating the schematic now, but it's a tedious process. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 18 21:51:59 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 19:51:59 -0800 Subject: Harris VOS question Message-ID: <1713c06a-db5f-e3ba-86ce-f3ce933c35b6@sydex.com> I'm looking at what I suspect is a labeled Harris VOS (Vulcan) tape. Is it the case that the Harris minis are incapable of writing tape records that aren't a multiple of 3 bytes in length? The reason I ask is that the VOL HDR, etc. records all seem to be 81 bytes in length. All other records on the tape are also a multiple of 3 bytes long. Anyone remember anything like this? The Bitsavers documents are of no help as far as I can determine. --Chuck From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Feb 18 22:02:35 2017 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (Steven Stengel) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 20:02:35 -0800 Subject: Wanted: Amiga 1000 hard drive Message-ID: Anyone have an Amiga 1000 hard drive that they want to sell? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 18 22:15:52 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 20:15:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harris VOS question In-Reply-To: <1713c06a-db5f-e3ba-86ce-f3ce933c35b6@sydex.com> References: <1713c06a-db5f-e3ba-86ce-f3ce933c35b6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Feb 2017, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm looking at what I suspect is a labeled Harris VOS (Vulcan) tape. > Is it the case that the Harris minis are incapable of writing tape > records that aren't a multiple of 3 bytes in length? The reason I ask > is that the VOL HDR, etc. records all seem to be 81 bytes in length. > All other records on the tape are also a multiple of 3 bytes long. > Anyone remember anything like this? The Bitsavers documents are of no > help as far as I can determine. Does the Harris use a 24 bit word? From w2hx at w2hx.com Sat Feb 18 23:09:02 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 21:09:02 -0800 Subject: DATARAM DR-118 docs? Message-ID: Hi folks, Looking for documentation on the DATARAM DR-118 16Kx12 core memory for PDP-8/e. I have the documentation on the DR-118A which is for the PDP-8/a. It is probably similar, but would love to find the right version. Anyone have such thing? Thanks Eugene From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 18 23:25:25 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 21:25:25 -0800 Subject: Harris VOS question In-Reply-To: References: <1713c06a-db5f-e3ba-86ce-f3ce933c35b6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 02/18/2017 08:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Does the Harris use a 24 bit word? Yes, it does, which is why I suspected it. But some real-world knowledge would help. --Chuck From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 02:40:33 2017 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 03:40:33 -0500 Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <2a6b3118-386f-0d91-be1c-3ee0d014853f@sydex.com> References: <216f17.40143515.45d9f97d@aol.com> <2a6b3118-386f-0d91-be1c-3ee0d014853f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <008a01d28a8b$d5ae8fc0$810baf40$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 4:04 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version On 02/18/2017 11:24 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > Adobe claims " PDF/A - the ISO standard for long-term archiving" > > -I am confused about all the versions etc.. > -which are good which are bad? > -are there good programs for opening hesitant to open pdf file? > - what is a good freeware PDF generator? / modifier? > - are older versions of the reader better than the newer ones? > -my HP scanner software makes PDF files eiher as graphics or as graphics with OCR > -is my HP scanner making "good" pdf files that can be read into the future? > > Sorry if I seem confused on this... but I am! When scanning documents and converting to PDF, I've found that ghostscript works fine (under Linux). There's also a separate tiff to pdf converter available as a package. Some people use ImageMagick There are also a number of free online conversion websites; I've used a couple and they seem to be pretty decent. --Chuck ----- http://www.differencebetween.net/technology/software-technology/difference-b etween-pdf-and-pdf-a/ is a concise description Summary: - PDF/A is a special type of PDF meant for archiving documents - PDF/A does not allow audio, video, and executable content while PDF does - PDF/A requires that graphics and fonts be embedded into the file while PDF does not - PDF/A does not allow external references while PDF does - PDF/A does not allow encryption while PDF does Those are all good archival properties! However, it's also R/O. For my purposes PDF/A is undesirable because I can't: (1) OCR it. (2) Extract pages. (3) Combine sectioned files into a single document. (4) Rotate pages permanently. It's the R/O part that is "mighty unhelpful" since it precludes basic document management. Gotta hope that the archivist made good choices. But the choices of an archivist aren't necessarily those of a user with a day-to-day need to fix stuff :-<. I can see value for a processing stream that uses a PDF/A intermediary to ensure the desirable properties listed above (e.g., font embedding) but then a final save in standard "open" PDF that allow users to accomplish the types of manipulations that I've listed. ----- paul From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Feb 19 03:39:02 2017 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 10:39:02 +0100 Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version References: <216f17.40143515.45d9f97d@aol.com> <2a6b3118-386f-0d91-be1c-3ee0d014853f@sydex.com> <008a01d28a8b$d5ae8fc0$810baf40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Open Office for Windows package has a "save as ...pdf" function /Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Birkel To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 9:40 AM Subject: RE: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 4:04 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 12169 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 19 05:07:27 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 12:07:27 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> Message-ID: On 17.02.2017 17:21, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:01 AM, Philipp Hachtmann > KiCad has no affiliation to Arduino; in fact, it's being heavily maintained > by CERN. But wherever I (!) look, in my part of the universe, a strongly biased and personal view, I see only those Arduino folks using it. Might be different in other places, but... > With the licensing model Eagle has just moved > to, alternatives like KiCad sure seem attractive. The new Eagle license model is a mess. I will stick to my Eagle 7. The idea of my little board designs being held hostage by a company somewhere is not good. And when the day has come that I can't go with the then old Eagle anymore and the licensing has not been repaired, then I will think about alternatives. Perhaps then KiCAD has already changed into the greatest EDA tool ever made. > Why are you bent out of shape over the Arduino community? It seems clear to > me that teenagers growing up with them will outgrow the language and > hardware limitations and move onto more advanced things before starting > their careers. I think one could make a decent analogy to BASIC on many > 8-bit microcomputers from decades past. Easy: If I had the impression that it is like you write, I'd be totally fine with it! But back in those days with BASIC it was easier to take the next step. If you want to go further beyond Arduino, you will have to instantly understand a huge amount of stuff. In my opinion the learning step from using a fancy Arduino library to understanding/modifying/writing another is too big. In BASIC it started with little things like peek and poke. There was no hidden C++ :-) From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 19 05:13:04 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 12:13:04 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <58A72AF6.2070606@pico-systems.com> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <58A72AF6.2070606@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7de8b63f-ddf3-072b-2bcf-42de5e5b5a21@hachti.de> On 17.02.2017 17:55, Jon Elson wrote: > On 02/17/2017 10:01 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >>> The CPLD you had on the last board, XC9572XL is a bit long in the tooth, >>> perhaps? Would you expect to use that one again, or a newer chip? >> I will use it again. It was already old when I decided to use it. It >> has 5V tolerant inputs. >> > It seems that Xilinx has made some hints that they do NOT plan to retire > the XC95xxXL series any time soon. :-) > If they do, the CoolRunner II family can be used with the addition of > one more voltage regulator. By the way my handmade prototype with three CPLDs (I ordered the wrong pincount) had CoolRunner II. I then switched to the old one because the IO voltage compatibility. I was unsure if I could connect TTL IN(!!!)-puts to the pins without degrading the chip too much: TTL inputs go up to 5V when they are left floating. I was simply not sure if the CoolRunner pins are properly protected against that. So I chose the safe option. From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Feb 19 05:15:31 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 12:15:31 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> Message-ID: <20170219111531.GA784@beast.freibergnet.de> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > > On 17.02.2017 17:21, Kyle Owen wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:01 AM, Philipp Hachtmann > > > KiCad has no affiliation to Arduino; in fact, it's being heavily maintained > > by CERN. > But wherever I (!) look, in my part of the universe, a strongly biased > and personal view, I see only those Arduino folks using it. > Might be different in other places, but... > > > With the licensing model Eagle has just moved > > to, alternatives like KiCad sure seem attractive. > The new Eagle license model is a mess. I will stick to my Eagle 7. The > idea of my little board designs being held hostage by a company > somewhere is not good. > And when the day has come that I can't go with the then old Eagle > anymore and the licensing has not been repaired, then I will think about > alternatives. Perhaps then KiCAD has already changed into the greatest > EDA tool ever made. Simply take a look now and then ..to adjust your point of view. > > > > Why are you bent out of shape over the Arduino community? It seems clear to > > me that teenagers growing up with them will outgrow the language and > > hardware limitations and move onto more advanced things before starting > > their careers. I think one could make a decent analogy to BASIC on many > > 8-bit microcomputers from decades past. > > Easy: If I had the impression that it is like you write, I'd be totally > fine with it! > But back in those days with BASIC it was easier to take the next step. > If you want to go further beyond Arduino, you will have to instantly > understand a huge amount of stuff. > In my opinion the learning step from using a fancy Arduino library to > understanding/modifying/writing another is too big. > In BASIC it started with little things like peek and poke. > There was no hidden C++ :-) > Agreed. I'm used some of the "shields" for aruinos from time to time, but I never used that arduino software for it. Ok, sometimes it is neccesary to look into a library to finally find out how the hardware is to be programmed..but I always wrote the code of my own. At least the masses of arduino related stuff drops the prices for interresting hardware stuff to play with. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 19 05:19:15 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 12:19:15 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <313bce1e-baa4-1d13-a615-ad0506a31943@hachti.de> > I don't have a problem with your arduino related point of view, :) > but I'm > sure you never heard from the push and shove router that kicad implements? I admit: you're right. > (take a look at youtube!) > If you have used it once, egale would look a lot like > copy-and-paste-maker-arduino-blinky-blinky-community-thingy.. As I wrote two minutes ago: Perhaps I've gone too far by seeing KiCAD too close to the Arduino thing. I know at least one clever guy using KiCAD as well. From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 19 05:24:12 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 12:24:12 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <20170219111531.GA784@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170219111531.GA784@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 19.02.2017 12:15, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> In my opinion the learning step from using a fancy Arduino library to >> understanding/modifying/writing another is too big. >> In BASIC it started with little things like peek and poke. >> There was no hidden C++ :-) >> > > Agreed. > I'm used some of the "shields" for aruinos from time to time, but I > never used that arduino software for it. Ok, sometimes it is neccesary > to look into a library to finally find out how the hardware is to be > programmed..but I always wrote the code of my own. At least the masses > of arduino related stuff drops the prices for interresting hardware stuff > to play with. Yes, I have some Arduino nano flying around. I even sometimes use their bootloader. From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 19 05:36:32 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 12:36:32 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <20170217213616.GA12032@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> <20170217213616.GA12032@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <5d0eb386-556c-1152-339e-9a6cdae51ca2@hachti.de> > > For sure there are many things still todo for the KiCad people, but this > nose high attitude "thats vor arduino people only" is the wrong thing > for sure.. (german saying: Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall) Haha, you probably got me wrong. I never even tried out KiCAD - because I had no idea why I should try out something else in the moment. > It could do much much more and much better than what you pay for it. I am not sure. I have read about no tight coupling between schematic and board. That's a no-go for me. > Do you want to know how eagles UI feels from my point of view? It's a well known disaster for newcomers. Many completely un-logic aspects. Evil pitfalls in the schematic editor. The strangest copy and paste mechanisms. But... If you are throgh that. And have already forgotten how frustrating Eagle's UI once was... everything is fine then. I really love the console input on Eagle. I can do many things by just typing in commands. Normal work does not involve pulldown menus. Wen I first encountered eagle it was running under DOS. No windows. Don't remember if there was a schematic editor. And not much to click. :-) From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 19 05:42:24 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 12:42:24 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <0eebc8f5-9483-7b72-7397-8a6ef491b780@charter.net> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <0eebc8f5-9483-7b72-7397-8a6ef491b780@charter.net> Message-ID: On 18.02.2017 04:07, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 2/17/2017 10:01 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> >> >> On 02/17/2017 01:02 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >>> First of all THANKS. I hope this works out. >> ?!? >> > > The thanks was for your effort. The hope that it works out was to say > that I hope that you decide to make some more and sell them, which seems > uncertain at this point. No. I already decided to do them. It's just the details. > That was why I specifically wrote *shield*. There are a lot of SPI > interface boards out there, and if there were a little room in the chip > to handle an Omnibus/SPI interface, a lot could conceivably be done with > it. Examples: SD Cards, Ethernet and so on. With an FPGA I even would have considered soldering an ether net PHY onto the board.. > As others have since pointed out, KiCAD has nothing whatsoever to do > with Arduino. Others have addressed its strengths and weaknesses. In > my case, the comment stemmed from perhaps wanting to take you hardware > design, and adapt it for other purposes, without having to start from > scratch. Haha :-) From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 19 05:51:44 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 12:51:44 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> Message-ID: On 17.02.2017 23:47, Charles Dickman wrote: > > What I am wishing for are Omnibus and Unibus adapters to an FPGA. I also thought about that. As a lab tool I'm totally fine with plugging anything into my 8 or 11. This could be done much easier for the Unibus than for Omnibus! In fact I first thought about making a universal Omnibus interface. Then I realized that it would have taken a massive amount of drivers and receivers because every peripheral can use/manipulate so many signals on the bus. And at that time I wanted to have It's not address decoding and data lines, it's about data break, CPU control lines and so on. The Omnibus contains much CPU-internal stuff which *might* be usable or used for a certain interface board. A peripheral board can force the CPU to continue at any address for example... The pdp8 external IO bus or the Unibus are more clear: You need this, that and that. And that's it. From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 06:30:14 2017 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 07:30:14 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <9e6434d4-e889-063c-a486-18b5f314e03a@sbcglobal.net> References: <20170207224151.C594618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <005c01d28a0e$afbbc760$0f335620$@gmail.com> <8a2e26cd-0d40-8bea-372e-3c586018db14@telegraphics.com.au> <006301d28a11$78145040$683cf0c0$@gmail.com> <006501d28a14$eb528b00$c1f7a100$@gmail.com> <9e6434d4-e889-063c-a486-18b5f314e03a@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <00b301d28aab$ec276090$c47621b0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 1:37 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version On 2/18/2017 10:29 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob > Rosenbloom > Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 1:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version > > On 2/18/2017 10:04 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al > Kossow >>> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:50 PM >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version >>> >>> PDF-A >>> >>> which is the reason it's not on bitsavers >> Thank you Al. It's not just me then who has heartburn with that format > .. >> ---- > I removed the /A format and put the copy up here: > http://dvq.com/docs/EK-11024-TM-003.pdf > > Bob > > ----- > > Thanks! What tool did you use to do that? > > paul Adobe Acrobat 9. Its buried down a few menus, and not obvious. Menus: Advanced then Preflight (at the bottom on mine) then PDF/A compliance then Remove PDF/A information Supposedly easier in Acrobat 10. Bob ------ "Supposedly" is the operative expression IMO. I have a very old copy of Acrobat X Pro and had to first discover "Remove PDFa Information.sequ" and install that. Now it's: Tools Action Wizard Actions Remove PDFa Information So that is perhaps more obvious, _once_ you discover that the functionality has to be added; it's not a built-in, which was my erroneous expectation. Thanks for the nudge in the right direction! paul ----- From alan at alanlee.org Sun Feb 19 08:14:48 2017 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 09:14:48 -0500 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> Message-ID: <29f878a0498d7850a9ddfef676a9c582@alanlee.org> Thanks for mentioning Logic Friday. I had never heard of it. I just used it to great effect in an unrelaed combinatorial logic reduction problem! -Alan On 2017-02-18 20:37, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 02/18/2017 04:22 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > >> Seems like someone on list was willing and able to read PAL16L8s and >> give a try to some PAL16R4s... Is that person still on list and >> still interested? If so, please contact me off-list. >> >> I am trying to restore some C64 carts, and the PAL on my working unit >> is protected, so I cannot replicate. > > If I'm the person (see my blog on vcfed.org), "reading" isn't exactly > the right term. For purely combinatorial PALs, the technique is to > determine the input and output assignments, then exhaustively run > through all the combinations. Take that data and run it through a logic > minimizer, such as Logic Friday and then use a bit of wetware to pick > out tristate control lines and their corresponding outputs. > > Not foolproof by any means--and much less so, if the device is > registered, but very often successful. > > A schematic showing the part application can be a godsend. > > --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Feb 19 09:06:46 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 10:06:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <008a01d28a8b$d5ae8fc0$810baf40$@gmail.com> References: <216f17.40143515.45d9f97d@aol.com> <2a6b3118-386f-0d91-be1c-3ee0d014853f@sydex.com> <008a01d28a8b$d5ae8fc0$810baf40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201702191506.KAA00417@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > - PDF/A is [...] > Those are all good archival properties! However, it's also R/O. Maybe if you stick to Adobe's tools. As demonstrated by this thread, it's entirely possible to modify such files, even if the currently-easy ways to do that involve a trip through a completely different representation. I find it astonishing that anyone would seriously call any documented file format read-only. (If PDF/A isn't documented, then IMO it's not suitable for archival under any circumstances. But this thread makes it sound as though it's documented.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From sales at elecplus.com Sun Feb 19 09:16:18 2017 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 09:16:18 -0600 Subject: OT: Immediate job opening in Atlanta Message-ID: <004101d28ac3$1ec26d80$5c474880$@com> If you are near Atlanta, there is an immediate opening for someone who knows terminals and keyboards. Must be able to drive fork lift, climb ladders, carry 50 pounds, etc. Email me if interested. This is a long term, full time, good paying job. Cindy Croxton From orders at elecplus.com Sun Feb 19 08:50:58 2017 From: orders at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 08:50:58 -0600 Subject: Atlanta job opening Message-ID: <000a01d28abf$9522fb10$bf68f130$@com> If you are near Atlanta, there is an immediate opening for someone who knows terminals and keyboards. Must be able to drive fork lift, climb ladders, carry 50 pounds, etc. Email me if interested. Cindy Croxton From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 10:16:20 2017 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 11:16:20 -0500 Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <201702191506.KAA00417@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <216f17.40143515.45d9f97d@aol.com> <2a6b3118-386f-0d91-be1c-3ee0d014853f@sydex.com> <008a01d28a8b$d5ae8fc0$810baf40$@gmail.com> <201702191506.KAA00417@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <00d001d28acb$820bc7d0$86235770$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 10:07 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version > - PDF/A is [...] > Those are all good archival properties! However, it's also R/O. Maybe if you stick to Adobe's tools. As demonstrated by this thread, it's entirely possible to modify such files, even if the currently-easy ways to do that involve a trip through a completely different representation. I find it astonishing that anyone would seriously call any documented file format read-only. (If PDF/A isn't documented, then IMO it's not suitable for archival under any circumstances. But this thread makes it sound as though it's documented.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B ----- I wasn't intending to make an existential claim. I was making an observation that, yes, was based on experience with a particular tool. And now I've found how to extend that tool to remove that limitation, thank you Guy :->. PDF/A still has properties that are specific to a community-of-use. Evidently Al thinks those properties are detrimental to the intent of Bitsavers? I wasn't previously aware of that issue; perhaps others here were also unaware? ----- paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Feb 19 10:19:09 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 11:19:09 -0500 Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: References: <216f17.40143515.45d9f97d@aol.com> <2a6b3118-386f-0d91-be1c-3ee0d014853f@sydex.com> <008a01d28a8b$d5ae8fc0$810baf40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ffce0af-2595-aac1-359c-f68d79108561@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-02-19 4:39 AM, Nico de Jong wrote: > The Open Office for Windows package has a "save as ...pdf" function Y'all realise we're dealing with bundles of *scanned images* in the context of this discussion. Often the source material is a multipage TIFF from the scanner or other processing step. So relevant tools are things like tiff2pdf (tiffutils), and tumble as cited on http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ My objection to PDF/A doesn't really stand if there are good open source tools to process it (clearly the Adobe tools don't count). --T > /Nico > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul Birkel > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 9:40 AM > Subject: RE: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU > later version > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 4:04 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU > later version > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. > SPAMfighter has removed 12169 of my spam emails to date. > Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen > From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Feb 19 11:01:48 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 18:01:48 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <5d0eb386-556c-1152-339e-9a6cdae51ca2@hachti.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> <20170217213616.GA12032@beast.freibergnet.de> <5d0eb386-556c-1152-339e-9a6cdae51ca2@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20170219170148.GA10558@beast.freibergnet.de> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > > > > For sure there are many things still todo for the KiCad people, but this > > nose high attitude "thats vor arduino people only" is the wrong thing > > for sure.. (german saying: Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall) > Haha, you probably got me wrong. I never even tried out KiCAD - because > I had no idea why I should try out something else in the moment. > > > It could do much much more and much better than what you pay for it. > I am not sure. I have read about no tight coupling between schematic and > board. That's a no-go for me. ..and this is simply wrong. Most eagle users are complaining aboZ ut a not so tight coupling between the schematic symbols and the footprint (which you can change in the schematic editor or in a program called cvpcb) and this is a entirely different thing. > > > Do you want to know how eagles UI feels from my point of view? yes .. but from far away. :-) > > It's a well known disaster for newcomers. Many completely un-logic > aspects. Evil pitfalls in the schematic editor. The strangest copy and > paste mechanisms. > But... If you are throgh that. And have already forgotten how > frustrating Eagle's UI once was... everything is fine then. > I really love the console input on Eagle. I can do many things by just > typing in commands. Normal work does not involve pulldown menus. > > Wen I first encountered eagle it was running under DOS. No windows. > Don't remember if there was a schematic editor. And not much to click. > > :-) To this times I've used Orcad on a Robotron EC1834 :-) It don't even had a mice, I've managed to use a graphics tablet (K6405) for that but it wasn't rally neccessary. Nevertheless, I don't think that I want to push you to use KiCad, but you _really_ should change your attitude about it. This isn't really playing stuff for kids anymore.. simply watch some of the youtube videos explainig that push and shove router, that is a really nice thing I don't want to miss anymore. For sure you will find out that KiCad isn't eagle, but it never wanted it to be.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Feb 19 11:24:04 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 09:24:04 -0800 Subject: Displaywriters in Chicago Message-ID: <27e9684f-4b2a-825a-2e70-10efe522bef6@bitsavers.org> Is there anyone out there that can save these? http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56313-IBM-Displaywriter-printer-(5215-or-5218)-needed I'm primarily interested in archiving the software. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Feb 19 12:09:19 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 13:09:19 -0500 Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version Message-ID: <30df87.7bfc2c2f.45db394f@aol.com> In a message dated 2/19/2017 8:06:50 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG writes: > - PDF/A is [...] > Those are all good archival properties! However, it's also R/O. Maybe if you stick to Adobe's tools. As demonstrated by this thread, it's entirely possible to modify such files, even if the currently-easy ways to do that involve a trip through a completely different representation. I find it astonishing that anyone would seriously call any documented file format read-only. (If PDF/A isn't documented, then IMO it's not suitable for archival under any circumstances. But this thread makes it sound as though it's documented.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B ====================== OK .. (correct me if I am gong in the wrong direction) so the important thing is that there is... - data in a format that is readable by others and a description of formats so if needed a reader can be constructed at a later date if needed. -non-commercial tools to access it or have the ability to modify the data in the future for all of time. -a reader/writer can be redone to work under a new operating system since source code is freely available for it? .... yea... makes sense... I do know what I do in any given week here is not necessary for the present but for years and sometimes lifetimes far removed from the present moment. #Ed _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sun Feb 19 13:02:58 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 11:02:58 -0800 Subject: Gimix 8K PROM board Message-ID: <05e601d28ae2$c9e05550$5da0fff0$@bettercomputing.net> Hey guys, I have a second SWTPC 6800 system I got recently and have it all running. It came with a Gimix 8K PROM board and, thankfully, the manual. It has two EPROMs installed: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4pq0-BHd2x6R29LVy03d3c4dTA/view?usp=sharin g I'm assuming this board is used for things like storing BASIC in ROM, etc. Based on the manual with DIP switch 7 set it is set to use C000 - if I wanted to try and init whatever is on those chips, would it be as simple as J C000 at the SWTBUG prompt? Many thanks, Brad From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Feb 19 14:44:46 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 15:44:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version Message-ID: <20170219204446.3F07718C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Toby Thain > Often the source material is a multipage TIFF from the scanner or other > processing step. Multiple single-page TIFFs, in my case. > So relevant tools are things like tiff2pdf (tiffutils) But also JPEG's, for pages where the B+W scanning I use (with fax compression to keep the file size down) results in pages that aren't readable - this happens on faded pages. Does tiff2pdf handle a bunch of single-page TIFF's, with a JPEG or two throw in? Noel From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Feb 19 14:50:01 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 15:50:01 -0500 Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version Message-ID: <32b16a.899f710.45db5ef8@aol.com> When we scan stuff at SMECC it is saved in the following 3 formats for each item scanned. PDF with ocr background TIFF JPEG and if containing a lot of text a TXT file as well. Kind of a shotgun approach... but should stand test of time? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 2/19/2017 1:44:52 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu writes: > From: Toby Thain > Often the source material is a multipage TIFF from the scanner or other > processing step. Multiple single-page TIFFs, in my case. > So relevant tools are things like tiff2pdf (tiffutils) But also JPEG's, for pages where the B+W scanning I use (with fax compression to keep the file size down) results in pages that aren't readable - this happens on faded pages. Does tiff2pdf handle a bunch of single-page TIFF's, with a JPEG or two throw in? Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Feb 19 16:22:26 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 14:22:26 -0800 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <20170219170148.GA10558@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> <20170217213616.GA12032@beast.freibergnet.de> <5d0eb386-556c-1152-339e-9a6cdae51ca2@hachti.de> <20170219170148.GA10558@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <62FE7C6F-6112-4403-966A-1FE9F5AA2017@nf6x.net> > On Feb 19, 2017, at 9:01 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Nevertheless, I don't think that I want to push you to use KiCad, > but you _really_ should change your attitude about it. This isn't really > playing stuff for kids anymore.. I previously paid about $1,500 for the top tier of Eagle for use at home on my Mac. When they briefly sprung network licensing on us around version 6 or so, I decided to try out KiCad. I now use KiCad not only for my home projects, but also every day for real product design in my job; on my Mac at home, and under Linux at work. It's not quite on par with Windows based $20k/seat tools I've used before yet, but it's more than good enough for the kinds of designs I'm doing. And it's continually improving. And it frees up $20k more of my boss's money to spend on test equipment and prototyping. And it never needs to phone home to a license server. I am curious to see what Autodesk does with Eagle, though. I use Fusion 360 both at home and work (on my personal MacBook at work since it doesn't run under Linux), and good integration between Eagle and Fusion 360 could be very compelling. But I really don't like cloud based software as a service, and I only grudgingly use Fusion 360 because there's no viable 3D CAD/CAM competition that I know of in its very low price range. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Feb 19 16:28:52 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 17:28:52 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <62FE7C6F-6112-4403-966A-1FE9F5AA2017@nf6x.net> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> <20170217213616.GA12032@beast.freibergnet.de> <5d0eb386-556c-1152-339e-9a6cdae51ca2@hachti.de> <20170219170148.GA10558@beast.freibergnet.de> <62FE7C6F-6112-4403-966A-1FE9F5AA2017@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Feb 19, 2017, at 5:22 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > ... and I only grudgingly use Fusion 360 because there's no viable 3D CAD/CAM competition that I know of in its very low price range. A while ago I went looking for 3D CAD again, after giving up on TurboCAD in disgust. Found FreeCAD (https://www.freecadweb.org). Works on Mac, Windows, Linux. It's a computational solid geometry program. One of the interesting features is a Python API; the model I created (Rolf Nelson's spaceship) is 5000 lines of Python. It also has a GUI, of course; I went the Python approach because it let me construct stuff numerically with ease. It also let me customize the export machinery for POVray output. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Feb 19 16:32:37 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 17:32:37 -0500 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <5d0eb386-556c-1152-339e-9a6cdae51ca2@hachti.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> <20170217213616.GA12032@beast.freibergnet.de> <5d0eb386-556c-1152-339e-9a6cdae51ca2@hachti.de> Message-ID: > On Feb 19, 2017, at 6:36 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > ... > Wen I first encountered eagle it was running under DOS. No windows. Don't remember if there was a schematic editor. And not much to click. Yes, it had schematic editor, board editor, and the same half-assed autorouter it still has today. And library editor. No CAM processor, though. The fact that it used DOS probably accounts for the odd mouse and cut/paste conventions, although even back then there were semi-standards of a sort at least for cut/paste. paul From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Feb 19 16:39:24 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 14:39:24 -0800 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> <20170217213616.GA12032@beast.freibergnet.de> <5d0eb386-556c-1152-339e-9a6cdae51ca2@hachti.de> <20170219170148.GA10558@beast.freibergnet.de> <62FE7C6F-6112-4403-966A-1FE9F5AA2017@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <63048107-9A85-423D-91D3-85F75CACCCA6@nf6x.net> > On Feb 19, 2017, at 2:28 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Feb 19, 2017, at 5:22 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> ... and I only grudgingly use Fusion 360 because there's no viable 3D CAD/CAM competition that I know of in its very low price range. > > A while ago I went looking for 3D CAD again, after giving up on TurboCAD in disgust. Found FreeCAD (https://www.freecadweb.org). Works on Mac, Windows, Linux. It's a computational solid geometry program. I do use FreeCAD as part of my KiCad flow, converting STEP models to VRML for KiCad's 3D renderer. But Fusion 360 offers real 3D CAM to drive my CNC mill, which is a big deal at its price point. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Feb 19 17:24:04 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 18:24:04 -0500 Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <20170219204446.3F07718C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170219204446.3F07718C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0d60e849-eeb7-f7a9-0431-c4e7d507f31f@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-02-19 3:44 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Toby Thain > > > Often the source material is a multipage TIFF from the scanner or other > > processing step. > > Multiple single-page TIFFs, in my case. Tiffcp and tiffsplit go between these, so I don't bother making a distinction... I find multipage TIFFs just as useful as PDF (since I don't care about OCR personally). > > > So relevant tools are things like tiff2pdf (tiffutils) > > But also JPEG's, for pages where the B+W scanning I use (with fax compression > to keep the file size down) results in pages that aren't readable - this > happens on faded pages. If the pages are text, you can start with a grey scale scan and use a per page B&W threshold post-scanning, of course. I wouldn't ship grey scale just for some faded text pages. A more common example of needing interspersed formats would be colour covers, or photographs in a mostly-text document. Or some schematics that need a higher resolution than the text (which rarely needs > 400). > Does tiff2pdf handle a bunch of single-page > TIFF's, with a JPEG or two throw in? Well, multipage TIFF certainly can (using tiffcp to assemble). I *think* tiff2pdf can transcode mixed documents reasonably to PDF (and maybe tumble can), but better test to be sure. --T > > Noel > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Feb 19 17:25:01 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 18:25:01 -0500 Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version In-Reply-To: <32b16a.899f710.45db5ef8@aol.com> References: <32b16a.899f710.45db5ef8@aol.com> Message-ID: On 2017-02-19 3:50 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > When we scan stuff at SMECC > it is saved in the following 3 formats for each item scanned. > > PDF with ocr background > TIFF > JPEG > and if containing a lot of text a TXT file as well. > > Kind of a shotgun approach... but should stand test of time? Only if you're publishing it somewhere and many people are mirroring it. --Toby > > Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) > > > > In a message dated 2/19/2017 1:44:52 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu writes: > >> From: Toby Thain > >> Often the source material is a multipage TIFF from the scanner or other >> processing step. > > Multiple single-page TIFFs, in my case. > >> So relevant tools are things like tiff2pdf (tiffutils) > > But also JPEG's, for pages where the B+W scanning I use (with fax > compression > to keep the file size down) results in pages that aren't readable - this > happens on faded pages. Does tiff2pdf handle a bunch of single-page > TIFF's, with a JPEG or two throw in? > > Noel > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 18:34:54 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 19:34:54 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Amiga 1000 hard drive References: Message-ID: <51FD7A28EABF424492E5A037496FD7DE@310e2> Any idea what make/model? m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Stengel" To: "Cc" Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:02 PM Subject: Wanted: Amiga 1000 hard drive > Anyone have an Amiga 1000 hard drive that they want to sell? > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Feb 19 18:39:26 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 19:39:26 -0500 Subject: PDF PDF Which is right and which is ... Was Re: PDP-11/24 CPU later version Message-ID: <3553e5.7b5fbd8.45db94be@aol.com> well I save the tiff because that's what archivists do generally I end up using the jpeg to make picture from. or post to net! In a message dated 2/19/2017 4:25:48 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, toby at telegraphics.com.au writes: On 2017-02-19 3:50 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > When we scan stuff at SMECC > it is saved in the following 3 formats for each item scanned. > > PDF with ocr background > TIFF > JPEG > and if containing a lot of text a TXT file as well. > > Kind of a shotgun approach... but should stand test of time? Only if you're publishing it somewhere and many people are mirroring it. --Toby > > Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) > > > > In a message dated 2/19/2017 1:44:52 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu writes: > >> From: Toby Thain > >> Often the source material is a multipage TIFF from the scanner or other >> processing step. > > Multiple single-page TIFFs, in my case. > >> So relevant tools are things like tiff2pdf (tiffutils) > > But also JPEG's, for pages where the B+W scanning I use (with fax > compression > to keep the file size down) results in pages that aren't readable - this > happens on faded pages. Does tiff2pdf handle a bunch of single-page > TIFF's, with a JPEG or two throw in? > > Noel > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Feb 19 22:43:24 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 20:43:24 -0800 Subject: ISO IBM 3278 keyboards Message-ID: <98BE5B2F-BABF-42FB-BF39-1F381B421A06@shiresoft.com> Hi, I recently acquired a couple of IBM 3278 terminals (finally!). They are complete and working when shipped. I haven?t powered them up yet?I need to check them out but other than some slight screen burn they?re complete and very clean. However, they came with data entry keyboards. I?d really like to find one or more typewriter keyboards for 3278?s. If anyone knows where some might be pried loose, I?d appreciate it. I?m willing to trade or pay $$?s. Thanks. TTFN - Guy From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Feb 19 23:23:23 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 23:23:23 -0600 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> <20170217213616.GA12032@beast.freibergnet.de> <5d0eb386-556c-1152-339e-9a6cdae51ca2@hachti.de> <20170219170148.GA10558@beast.freibergnet.de> <62FE7C6F-6112-4403-966A-1FE9F5AA2017@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <58AA7D4B.6070206@pico-systems.com> On 02/19/2017 04:28 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Feb 19, 2017, at 5:22 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> ... and I only grudgingly use Fusion 360 because there's no viable 3D CAD/CAM competition that I know of in its very low price range. > A while ago I went looking for 3D CAD again, after giving up on TurboCAD in disgust. Found FreeCAD (https://www.freecadweb.org). Works on Mac, Windows, Linux. Several of the guys at work are using FreeCAD and doing great stuff with it. Jon From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 19:01:53 2017 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 20:01:53 -0500 Subject: Error in PDP-12 Prints, and maybe all PDP-12s. Message-ID: While debugging the PDP-12 at the RICM we found a mistake on sheet TC12-0-LTR in the PDP-12 schematics. The pins on the data cable between the TU56 and the TC12 labeled BT2 and FT2 should be BL2 and FL2. DEC wired the TC12 backplane per the incorrect schematic and grounded pin F06T2 instead of F06L2. The W032 on the end of the data cable has nothing connected to pin T, so this leaves the TC12 end of the Triax cable shield for data track 3 ungrounded. Data track 3 is the one on which we are having a noise problem, so this is a promising discovery. The 1969 and 1972 PDP-12 Engineering Drawings both have the same revision sheet TC12-0-LTR and the same error. Maybe all PDP-12s have this wiring error? -- Michael Thompson From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 01:09:42 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 23:09:42 -0800 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <2C586782-ACCB-49DB-A0EF-453AB1063403@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <62098BE0-1EC4-490C-94CE-DB5DC078C4B3@gmail.com> <016e01d20bd6$a8d23120$fa769360$@gmail.com> <20160926233318.15662cf0@asrock.bcwi.net> <262FDB45-A33A-4F0D-BADD-19FAC76BA868@gmail.com> <1FFD331E-DD61-4BBA-AE6A-1053B9C56D1C@gmail.com> <2C586782-ACCB-49DB-A0EF-453AB1063403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A1D5080-3A45-4523-ACAC-CC89A3E686FE@gmail.com> Alto Restoration Videos Parts 13 and 14 are uploaded https://youtu.be/5f43fmZcj9Y https://youtu.be/LxFv2JNNW-A Marc From hachti at hachti.de Mon Feb 20 02:51:25 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 09:51:25 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> <20170217213616.GA12032@beast.freibergnet.de> <5d0eb386-556c-1152-339e-9a6cdae51ca2@hachti.de> Message-ID: <3edfea51-c322-9702-5126-212c77e2ee70@hachti.de> I am so sorry that I use Eagle! Please let us stop this discussion. It's just a tool. And KiCAD is another tool. I currently use Eagle and that's it. From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Feb 20 07:30:11 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 14:30:11 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <313bce1e-baa4-1d13-a615-ad0506a31943@hachti.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <313bce1e-baa4-1d13-a615-ad0506a31943@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20170220133011.GA70056@beast.freibergnet.de> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > > I don't have a problem with your arduino related point of view, > :) > > > but I'm > > sure you never heard from the push and shove router that kicad implements? > I admit: you're right. > > > (take a look at youtube!) > > If you have used it once, egale would look a lot like > > copy-and-paste-maker-arduino-blinky-blinky-community-thingy.. > > As I wrote two minutes ago: Perhaps I've gone too far by seeing KiCAD > too close to the Arduino thing. I know at least one clever guy using > KiCAD as well. Thanks for the flowers :-) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From hachti at hachti.de Mon Feb 20 07:43:09 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 14:43:09 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <20170220133011.GA70056@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <313bce1e-baa4-1d13-a615-ad0506a31943@hachti.de> <20170220133011.GA70056@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <07944910-800a-865a-92a3-dd1355cf977c@hachti.de> On 02/20/2017 02:30 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> As I wrote two minutes ago: Perhaps I've gone too far by seeing KiCAD >> too close to the Arduino thing. I know at least one clever guy using >> KiCAD as well. > > Thanks for the flowers :-) Haha, I thought of someone outside of cctalk...! But.. you're welcome :-) From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Feb 20 08:24:45 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 15:24:45 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <4C517483-8A2D-42A7-B0C2-FA8C93D65320@comcast.net> References: <20170217193538.6646B18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4C517483-8A2D-42A7-B0C2-FA8C93D65320@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20170220142445.GA71858@beast.freibergnet.de> Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Feb 17, 2017, at 2:35 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > > ... > >> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > > > >> In terms of community supplied libraries, Eagle has those too and I've > >> found that by and large they are junk (it's easier/quicker for me to > >> create a part on my own > >> ... While I haven't seen a lot of KiCAD contributed libraries (that's > >> part of the problem) > > > > KiCAD came with a fairly large set of user-contributed libraries. For various > > reasons (including working with archaic parts), I've wound up adding quite a > > few, but i've usally found it pretty easy to modify an exising part from the > > libraries, to get what I need. YMMV. > > One thing I learned with Eagle (an old version -- I started with it on DOS, with a physical license dongle) is that you can define library stuff via scripting. This is very helpful when defining 120-pin PCB footprints. I've made pcbnew footprints for PLCC Sockets in the past with some scripting. In the meantime the footprint format has changed to that .pretty. I don't had to make footprints with such big pincounts sine them again, but I don't think they made it simpossible to use scripting for that at all. > > I don't remember precisely, but I think you can export libraries from Eagle in some sort of text form. If that's true, then it would be SMOP to write a KiCAD library importer. The key question is whether the library semantics are compatible. EAGLE is rather nice in the way it handles schematic symbols vs. footprints and all that. You can select footprints corrsponding to a part in the schematic editor for each part. What's the problem? > > I used EAGLE long ago for one project, and more recently for another, but I haven't found it sufficiently useful to buy it a second time to get the non-free version. Not that I really need the autorouter, it isn't really all that useful. But still, it's pretty steep for a hobbyist. I discovered KiCAD, haven't used it yet, should give it a try. > > One nice aspect of EAGLE is that a number of PCB fab shops will accept EAGLE *.BRD files directly, rather than asking for Gerber and drill files. > > paul > Why is that nice? This way the pcb company has your "sourcecode". Besides of that where is the real difference to going to "File->Plot", Select "Gerber" and push the "Plot" Button? That can't really be to difficult... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Feb 20 08:53:00 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 14:53:00 +0000 (WET) Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 20 Feb 2017 09:51:25 +0100" <3edfea51-c322-9702-5126-212c77e2ee70@hachti.de> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> <20170217213616.GA12032@beast.freibergnet.de> <5d0eb386-556c-1152-339e-9a6cdae51ca2@hachti.de> Message-ID: <01QB451WGHH000159O@beyondthepale.ie> Philipp wrote: > > I am so sorry that I use Eagle! > > Please let us stop this discussion. It's just a tool. And KiCAD is > another tool. I currently use Eagle and that's it. > I'm with Philipp on this. Every time someone posts to the list to offer some piece of hardware they are developing, our response is "You're doing it wrong. Do it this way instead.". Then there follows a long and useless debate, quite tangential to classic computing, which often ends up with the project getting delayed or shelved, possibly because of the added hassle for the person doing the work. When someone comes offering something like this, couldn't we just accept that whoever is doing the work has already put some thought into it and has good reasons for the options they are going with? If they post looking for suggestions, they are looking for suggestions, not looking for someone to convert them to a different religeon. We could just be thankful that someone is willing to put the effort into doing something like this and make an effort to make things as easy as possible for them. If anyone doesn't like what is on offer, they are free to put the work into creating what they believe would be a better project but not to hold up what has already begun. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Feb 20 11:22:15 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 09:22:15 -0800 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <20170220142445.GA71858@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20170217193538.6646B18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4C517483-8A2D-42A7-B0C2-FA8C93D65320@comcast.net> <20170220142445.GA71858@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <206A4C63-F9E3-406E-AAD5-05B268F5B221@nf6x.net> > On Feb 20, 2017, at 06:24, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Why is that nice? This way the pcb company has your "sourcecode". > Besides of that where is the real difference to going to > "File->Plot", Select "Gerber" and push the "Plot" Button? > > That can't really be to difficult... In every PCB tool I've used, Gerber generation is a separate, configurable process which can easily be misconfigured. Visually checking my Gerbers for common mistakes is a normal part of my flow, no matter what tool I use, even after I have the settings dialed in. Yes, I usually just click "plot" as you say, but I still proof the plots for mistakes that can creep in, such as designing a board with more layers than I had previously used in that particular tool installation, and forgetting to emit the Gerbers for the added layers. Back when I had to review a lot of customer PCB designs as an applications engineer for a chip manufacturer, I'd regularly get Gerbers from professional designers which required post-processing such as changing drill scaling and offset before I could even view them, and that taught me to be a lot more careful about my own Gerber generation. I suspect that full-service PCB houses would just quietly fix problems like that and only raise flags for serious errors, so many designers probably never got any feedback about their Gerbers being messy. But no-touch quick-turn shops require pretty clean Gerbers, so skipping Gerber generation lowers the bar for inexperienced PCB designers. I don't personally send in PCB source files instead of Gerbers, but I can see how being able to do that can be helpful and convenient for beginners. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Feb 20 10:53:18 2017 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 10:53:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: Sun E10000 Historical Enquiry Message-ID: Greetings to all; All this talk of favourite machines and getting into the hobby has gotten me amped up to work on my E10k. The E10k was always the "coolest" machine for me - largely due to the timing of my entry into the industry. I recently read Tracy Kidder's Soul of a New Machine and was pondering the history of the E10k and its start in Cray Research Inc and its subsequent sale to Sun. The asset transfer that must've taken place and then how Sun turned it around to make it a Sun product and made its impact on the market has to be a fascinating story too. I would love to talk to anyone who was involved in the development, transfer, initial rollout and support of the E10k - from both CRI's and Sun's perspective. Heck, I'd be fascinated to talk to anyone who purchased the machines during their lifespan (1997-2001) and could tell me what you used them for. If you only know of someone that was involved that you might think would be interested in talking to me, please pass my eMail address on. Maybe if I get a big response I could put something together, if there was suitable interest of course. But at this point, I'm mostly just fascinated for myself. Thanks to all! - JP From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 12:01:23 2017 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:01:23 -0600 Subject: LGP-Resto Update Message-ID: For those curious about the status of the LGP-30 restoration, I?ve got a blog up with the latest. http://radar58.com/LGP30/ The power supplies are stable, the blower unit was overhauled and new bearings installed, all the modules have been recapped. I had a noisy bearing in the memory drum, thankfully it was one that could be accessed through the pulley end and I was able to inject fresh grease. There were burnt contacts in one of the open frame relays in the sequencer unit leading to intermittents. I found a NOS 3-pole version with fresh contacts and transferred those over yesterday and we now have correct startup. The ?digital display? chassis has been worked over with fresh resistors and this has made the controls much more responsive. The Flexowriter is behaving and the 6 associated FF's in the machine respond to keystrokes. All-told, I?m at the point of troubleshooting the scope display- I have a sad, unintelligible, wavy line, but I believe retrace is derived from the system clock track on the drum, so that?s my next investigation. Both vertical and horizontal boards have been rebuilt and tubes substituted with no change. -C From lars at nocrew.org Mon Feb 20 13:27:41 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 20:27:41 +0100 Subject: 3D scans and sounds Message-ID: <86d1ec1x3m.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Hello, I'm grateful that there are plenty of pictures of classic computer. However, I want more. 3D scans and sound recordings. Has anyone attempted to do that? From jon at jonworld.com Mon Feb 20 13:48:50 2017 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 19:48:50 +0000 Subject: Sun E10000 Historical Enquiry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 4:53 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > All this talk of favourite machines and getting into the hobby has gotten me > amped up to work on my E10k. The E10k was always the "coolest" machine for > me - largely due to the timing of my entry into the industry. It started as a Cray system; have you read up on the CS6400? The E10K was the next derivation of that. I deployed them as a Sun PS engineer; towards the end of the life they were giving the inventory away, almost (buy a SF6800 and get an E10K "free".) There was a guy who I used to talk to who was on one of the Sun lists and was based in the top-tier hardware development/software development out of San Diego, and then later he moved east, but I forgot who that was. From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Mon Feb 20 14:38:04 2017 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 13:38:04 -0700 Subject: DATARAM DR-118 docs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 10:09 PM, W2HX wrote: > Hi folks, > > Looking for documentation on the DATARAM DR-118 16Kx12 core memory for > PDP-8/e. I have the documentation on the DR-118A which is for the PDP-8/a. > It is probably similar, but would love to find the right version. > > Anyone have such thing? > Thanks > Eugene > > I don't have an answer for you only an additional question. Since the E came out before the A and DATARAM made a board for the E, and quad boards from the E would work perfectly in the A why would you make a board specifically for the A? Did they make a Hex board version of it for the A? Was the E a two board set? Hope you find the documentation. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Feb 20 14:44:16 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:44:16 -0800 Subject: DATARAM DR-118 docs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From what I have seen, yes. There is a Hex version of this board for the 8/A. the product for the E was a 2 board set. Each pair of boards had 16k X 12 bit. So two pair of boards are required. I have two pair but have some stuck bits I need to figure out. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doug Ingraham Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 3:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DATARAM DR-118 docs? On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 10:09 PM, W2HX wrote: > Hi folks, > > Looking for documentation on the DATARAM DR-118 16Kx12 core memory for > PDP-8/e. I have the documentation on the DR-118A which is for the PDP-8/a. > It is probably similar, but would love to find the right version. > > Anyone have such thing? > Thanks > Eugene > > I don't have an answer for you only an additional question. Since the E came out before the A and DATARAM made a board for the E, and quad boards from the E would work perfectly in the A why would you make a board specifically for the A? Did they make a Hex board version of it for the A? Was the E a two board set? Hope you find the documentation. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From kevinowens1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 13:37:54 2017 From: kevinowens1 at gmail.com (Kevin Owens) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 19:37:54 +0000 Subject: Free to a good home: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 workstation / server (Seattle, WA) Message-ID: do you still have this ? thanks Kevin From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Feb 20 14:55:19 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:55:19 -0800 Subject: DATARAM DR-118 docs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just some more details on this. Here is the DR-118A for the 8/a. Hex version http://www.ebay.com/itm/DATARAM-DR-118A-CORE-MEMORY-BOARD-DR118A-/351926961139?hash=item51f07b43f3:g:~mEAAOSw2xRYRvDW and here is the manual to the "A" Again, I'd love to find the docs on the "E" version http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dataram/DR118A-RefMan.pdf -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of W2HX Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 3:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: DATARAM DR-118 docs? From what I have seen, yes. There is a Hex version of this board for the 8/A. the product for the E was a 2 board set. Each pair of boards had 16k X 12 bit. So two pair of boards are required. I have two pair but have some stuck bits I need to figure out. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doug Ingraham Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 3:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DATARAM DR-118 docs? On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 10:09 PM, W2HX wrote: > Hi folks, > > Looking for documentation on the DATARAM DR-118 16Kx12 core memory for > PDP-8/e. I have the documentation on the DR-118A which is for the PDP-8/a. > It is probably similar, but would love to find the right version. > > Anyone have such thing? > Thanks > Eugene > > I don't have an answer for you only an additional question. Since the E came out before the A and DATARAM made a board for the E, and quad boards from the E would work perfectly in the A why would you make a board specifically for the A? Did they make a Hex board version of it for the A? Was the E a two board set? Hope you find the documentation. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From shatle at nfldinet.com Mon Feb 20 14:49:11 2017 From: shatle at nfldinet.com (Steve Hatle) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 13:49:11 -0700 Subject: Sun E10000 Historical Enquiry Message-ID: <20170220134911.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.563b9eb852.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Sun E10000 Historical Enquiry From: Jonathan KatzThere was a guy who I used to talk to who was on one of the Sun lists and was based in the top-tier hardware development/software development out of San Diego, and then later he moved east, but I forgot who that was. == I know who it is - we're still in contact once in a while. I plan to ping him and see if he's interested in participating. I also have another friend who drove a number of E10Ks for a large company here in the Twin Cities. Steve From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 20 17:21:44 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 23:21:44 +0000 Subject: DISSPLA fortran source anyone? Message-ID: The scientific graphics software package, written By Ian Hirscholn. Later sold to Coumputer Automation. He ported it to the PC later, with his company ISSCO. They also made a neat bitslice machine to run it, the Portable Graphics Mainframe, I had one for a bit, I was their rep. Anybody have anything on this beast, it was amazing. Randy From hachti at hachti.de Mon Feb 20 17:39:49 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 00:39:49 +0100 Subject: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react! In-Reply-To: <01QB451WGHH000159O@beyondthepale.ie> References: <6f79f12d-7419-2f29-f28f-efa9896167bf@hachti.de> <0ac2b66c-f5ef-df93-1f7a-0256a6934c3c@charter.net> <20170217171635.GA3486@beast.freibergnet.de> <0F05D40C-ECFD-4D4C-9FBB-67CF7D186A22@shiresoft.com> <20170217213616.GA12032@beast.freibergnet.de> <5d0eb386-556c-1152-339e-9a6cdae51ca2@hachti.de> <01QB451WGHH000159O@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Thanks, Peter! Here it's way not as bad as on the Linux Kernel mailing list... I once came up with some nice additions to the ftdi usb serial driver. Reaction was something like "Do it right! Now!" The "right" was only a question how the thing should be controlled from the system's perspective. I only added functionality and a simple sysfs interface. But that was not enough. They wanted it to be attached to the GPIO framework (which I still consider unsuitable for the issue). Instead of taking my changes and staying with the wish that there should be even more stuff added, it was refused and I lost interest in upstreaming my mega-speed patch. But I will produce my board (again). Withe xc9572xl and Eagle and without Arduino. Whoever wants a different board, can make/derive one afterwards. Kind regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 philipp at hachtmann.com www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 > Am 20.02.2017 um 15:53 schrieb Peter Coghlan : > > Philipp wrote: >> >> I am so sorry that I use Eagle! >> >> Please let us stop this discussion. It's just a tool. And KiCAD is another tool. I currently use Eagle and that's it. >> > > I'm with Philipp on this. > > Every time someone posts to the list to offer some piece of hardware they > are developing, our response is "You're doing it wrong. Do it this way > instead.". Then there follows a long and useless debate, quite tangential > to classic computing, which often ends up with the project getting delayed > or shelved, possibly because of the added hassle for the person doing the > work. > > When someone comes offering something like this, couldn't we just accept > that whoever is doing the work has already put some thought into it and > has good reasons for the options they are going with? If they post > looking for suggestions, they are looking for suggestions, not looking > for someone to convert them to a different religeon. > > We could just be thankful that someone is willing to put the effort into > doing something like this and make an effort to make things as easy as > possible for them. > > If anyone doesn't like what is on offer, they are free to put the work > into creating what they believe would be a better project but not to > hold up what has already begun. > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Feb 21 02:51:46 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 02:51:46 -0600 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4e1b5d93-efe4-353c-dc21-a2d5b0d3f201@jbrain.com> As a function of "give a man a fish, you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, you feed him for all time", I dloaded Logic Friday, and figured out a quick way to read the two 16L8 (combinatorial only) PALs on the board with my EPROM reader (cue duct tape and baling wire snickers). After getting some good reads, and minimizing the binaries (I read 8kB of data, and then split the files into 1kB chunks to handle the one unit's 10 input lines, and split the other file into 4 2048 byte chunks due to the 11 inputs), I then wrote a really crappy C program to convert the data to CSV format for Logic Friday. After dealing with some nuances in the format, I was able to minimize the equations, and I thank you Chuck (I probably am still going to hit you up on the 16R4 and the 16R6, as I assume they are not so easy to reverse engineer) for the suggestion. Now, my new question: Is there a way to get Logic Friday to perform "negative" logic? Specifically, by looking at the CSV file, it is obvious that one of the outputs is low only when A15:A10 and R/W are all low. So, basically: O3 = (A15 + A14 + A13 + A12 + A11 + A10 + R/W) But, what I get is: O3 = A10 + A11 + A15 A13' A12' + A14' A13' A12 + A14 R/W' + A13 R/W' + R/W I assume this is the "wetware" process you mention, but I thought I would check if I need to tweak something in Logic Friday to achieve better results. Jim From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 10:46:15 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 17:46:15 +0100 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <7A1D5080-3A45-4523-ACAC-CC89A3E686FE@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <62098BE0-1EC4-490C-94CE-DB5DC078C4B3@gmail.com> <016e01d20bd6$a8d23120$fa769360$@gmail.com> <20160926233318.15662cf0@asrock.bcwi.net> <262FDB45-A33A-4F0D-BADD-19FAC76BA868@gmail.com> <1FFD331E-DD61-4BBA-AE6A-1053B9C56D1C@gmail.com> <2C586782-ACCB-49DB-A0EF-453AB1063403@gmail.com> <7A1D5080-3A45-4523-ACAC-CC89A3E686FE@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 20 February 2017 at 08:09, Curious Marc wrote: > Alto Restoration Videos Parts 13 and 14 are uploaded > > https://youtu.be/5f43fmZcj9Y > > https://youtu.be/LxFv2JNNW-A > Excellent stuff -- thank you for this! Filing cabinets full of disks, eh? Wow. How many working Altos are there left in the world? Does anyone have a network of them running, with a server? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Feb 21 08:17:23 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:17:23 +0100 Subject: Q Bus Music Board Message-ID: <20170221141722.GG16529@Update.UU.SE> Hi This has been discussed on this mailinglist before (back in -95 and -03). But with very little information came out of that. I'm curious about the "Q Bus Music Board" that DEC made. What system was it used in, what software was available that took advantage of it, how would you program it? All I know is from the cctalk threads and a few pictures from an ebay auction, with missleading description, that I missed out on. The number on the green handle is "93 08036" and on the PCB there is the number "EY-0105E-MS-0101" and it looks like it has two AY-3-8192 synthesiser chips. So, does anyone know anything more? And if anyone has one they could part with, I'd be interested. Kind Regards, Pontus. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 11:05:29 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:05:29 -0800 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: References: <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <62098BE0-1EC4-490C-94CE-DB5DC078C4B3@gmail.com> <016e01d20bd6$a8d23120$fa769360$@gmail.com> <20160926233318.15662cf0@asrock.bcwi.net> <262FDB45-A33A-4F0D-BADD-19FAC76BA868@gmail.com> <1FFD331E-DD61-4BBA-AE6A-1053B9C56D1C@gmail.com> <2C586782-ACCB-49DB-A0EF-453AB1063403@gmail.com> <7A1D5080-3A45-4523-ACAC-CC89A3E686FE@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/21/17 8:46 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 20 February 2017 at 08:09, Curious Marc wrote: >> Alto Restoration Videos Parts 13 and 14 are uploaded >> >> https://youtu.be/5f43fmZcj9Y >> >> https://youtu.be/LxFv2JNNW-A >> > > Excellent stuff -- thank you for this! > > Filing cabinets full of disks, eh? Wow. > > How many working Altos are there left in the world? Maybe half a dozen that I know of. > Does anyone have a > network of them running, with a server? > The LCM+L has two running Altos, plus two emulated Altos, talking to a re-implementation of the Xerox IFS services. We have a 3mbit Ethernet bridge so that the real Altos can talk to the emulated Altos and the IFS server. (Source code on our GitHub at https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum) - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 21 12:47:19 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:47:19 -0800 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: <4e1b5d93-efe4-353c-dc21-a2d5b0d3f201@jbrain.com> References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> <4e1b5d93-efe4-353c-dc21-a2d5b0d3f201@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 02/21/2017 12:51 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > I assume this is the "wetware" process you mention, but I thought I > would check if I need to tweak something in Logic Friday to achieve > better results. I've always gone the "wetware" route, which seems to be mandatory when a term involves, say, 30 terms because of feedback terms. I don't know if there's a automatic reduction package out there that can make this leap. --Chuck From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Feb 21 13:48:02 2017 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 16:48:02 -0300 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: <4e1b5d93-efe4-353c-dc21-a2d5b0d3f201@jbrain.com> References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> <4e1b5d93-efe4-353c-dc21-a2d5b0d3f201@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20170221194808.5086210DF78F@bart0127.email.locaweb.com.br> Jim Brain wrote: > As a function of "give a man a fish, you feed him for a day; teach a man > to fish, you feed him for all time", I dloaded Logic Friday, and figured > out a quick way to read the two 16L8 (combinatorial only) PALs on the > board with my EPROM reader (cue duct tape and baling wire snickers). Don't forget that 16L8 means 8 logic outputs and 16 inputs even though at first glance there only seems to be 8 inputs. That is because every output is also an input and can possibly be just an input by forcing the three state option. Both options complicate things and in the first case you can have stuff like: O1 = /I1*I2 + I1*O1 If you count up the possible values of I1 and I2 you will get: I2, I1 => O1 0, 0 => 0 0, 1 => 0 1, 0 => 1 1, 1 => 1 but if you count down you get: I2, I1 => O1 1, 1 => 0 1, 0 => 1 0, 1 => 1 0, 0 => 0 which is different, and if you repeat this a bunch of times you will sometimes get 1 output in the first line and you might get 0 output in the third line once in a while. The IBM PC AT had two PALs. One was a simple address decoder while the second included an interface to the FPU and had a tiny state machine implemented like this. I helped some friends who were doing an AT clone in 1986 figure this out in a few minutes, but most of their competitors in Brazil took nearly two years to reverse engineer this. -- Jecel From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 14:41:27 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 21:41:27 +0100 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: <20170221194808.5086210DF78F@bart0127.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> <4e1b5d93-efe4-353c-dc21-a2d5b0d3f201@jbrain.com> <20170221194808.5086210DF78F@bart0127.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: tisdag 21 februari 2017 skrev Jecel Assumpcao Jr. : > Jim Brain wrote: > > > As a function of "give a man a fish, you feed him for a day; teach a man > > to fish, you feed him for all time", I dloaded Logic Friday, and figured > > out a quick way to read the two 16L8 (combinatorial only) PALs on the > > board with my EPROM reader (cue duct tape and baling wire snickers). > > Don't forget that 16L8 means 8 logic outputs and 16 inputs even though > at first glance there only seems to be 8 inputs. That is because every > output is also an input and can possibly be just an input by forcing the > three state option. > Right now I am in the situation of having a 16L8 with unknown program so I have been thinking (and googling) to find a solution. I have come to the conclusion that this device has to be considered as 262144 by 8 ROM. 18 bits address space because it has 8 three state outputs (six of them may act as inputs) which has to be probed in what way they are active driving or not and then 10 inputs. I was thinking of driving the outputs through a 1k or so resistor and then reading back the outputs. The inputs are of course driven as usual. Then I need to write some small piece of software to deduce the OE pin values and minimise the equations using some program mentioned above in the thread. I have seen someone making a small device to do this. http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/elec/pal.php Unfortunately the software doesn't seem to be available any longer. Anyone that has it? It would definetely save me some time. /Mattis From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Feb 21 14:58:07 2017 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 20:58:07 +0000 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> <4e1b5d93-efe4-353c-dc21-a2d5b0d3f201@jbrain.com> <20170221194808.5086210DF78F@bart0127.email.locaweb.com.br>, Message-ID: I have seen someone making a small device to do this. http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/elec/pal.php Unfortunately the software doesn't seem to be available any longer. Anyone that has it? It would definetely save me some time. /Mattis How about: http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/pal/pd-070908.zip From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Feb 21 15:01:41 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 13:01:41 -0800 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> <4e1b5d93-efe4-353c-dc21-a2d5b0d3f201@jbrain.com> <20170221194808.5086210DF78F@bart0127.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: On 2/21/2017 12:41 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I have seen someone making a small device to do this. > http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/elec/pal.php > > Unfortunately the software doesn't seem to be available any longer. Anyone > that has it? It would definetely save me some time. Did you try contacting him thru his page? http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/ http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/contact.php I do like his antispam puzzle. He has robots setting to bar archive.org from archiving it, which is sad in these cases. thanks Jim From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 16:06:10 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 23:06:10 +0100 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> <4e1b5d93-efe4-353c-dc21-a2d5b0d3f201@jbrain.com> <20170221194808.5086210DF78F@bart0127.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: 2017-02-21 22:01 GMT+01:00 jim stephens : > > > On 2/21/2017 12:41 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> I have seen someone making a small device to do this. >> http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/elec/pal.php >> >> Unfortunately the software doesn't seem to be available any longer. Anyone >> that has it? It would definetely save me some time. >> > Did you try contacting him thru his page? > > http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/ > http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/contact.php > > I do like his antispam puzzle. > > > I did try to contact him but got no reply. But now it solved because Kelly Leavitt somehow did find the correct link, which is not the one linked to from the page. Thanks a lot for this! Unfortunately there were no source code in there unless they are self extracting binaries. No PC nor DOSEMU running so I cannot check right now. If there are no source I need to try to figure out the the ordering of the pins that the dump uses from the schematic. It seems not to readable by the version of Eagle I have here though. Maybe it will be easier to DIY anyway... Anyone else that done this kind of PAL analysis so I can avoid reinventing the wheel? /Mattis > > thanks > Jim > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 21 16:39:13 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:39:13 -0800 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> <4e1b5d93-efe4-353c-dc21-a2d5b0d3f201@jbrain.com> <20170221194808.5086210DF78F@bart0127.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <32d5c391-8710-aadd-e0bf-1d4fccf2b81d@sydex.com> On 02/21/2017 02:06 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > But now it solved because Kelly Leavitt somehow did find the correct > link, which is not the one linked to from the page. Thanks a lot for > this! > > Unfortunately there were no source code in there unless they are > self extracting binaries. No PC nor DOSEMU running so I cannot check > right now. If there are no source I need to try to figure out the the > ordering of the pins that the dump uses from the schematic. It seems > not to readable by the version of Eagle I have here though. > > Maybe it will be easier to DIY anyway... > > Anyone else that done this kind of PAL analysis so I can avoid > reinventing the wheel? If you check my vcfed.org blog, you'll see that I used a PC parallel port to drive a setup pretty much consisting of a few 74LS193 counters and a 74LS151 multiplexer, driven off the low 4 bits of the counters. This gave me 20 bits of output, so I took some of the extra bits and used them to "push" possible tristate bits through 2K resistors. One parallel printer bit to reset, another to count and one to read the output. Built in an evening with parts from my hellbox on a hunk of perfboard. I was tempted to use an MCU, but given the 20 outputs+4 inputs of this rig, it made more sense. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Feb 21 16:54:43 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:54:43 -0800 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> <4e1b5d93-efe4-353c-dc21-a2d5b0d3f201@jbrain.com> <20170221194808.5086210DF78F@bart0127.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: On 2/21/2017 2:06 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > But now it solved because Kelly Leavitt somehow did find the correct link, > which is not the one linked to from the page. Thanks a lot for this! > > Unfortunately there were no source code in there unless they are self > extracting binaries. No PC nor DOSEMU running so I cannot check right now. > If there are no source I need to try to figure out the the ordering of the > pins that the dump uses from the schematic. It seems not to readable by the > version of Eagle I have here though. > > Maybe it will be easier to DIY anyway... > > Anyone else that done this kind of PAL analysis so I can avoid reinventing > the wheel? > > > /Mattis There are PD executables which run from the dos command line for both versions of the hardware. Manufacturing info for the boards are there. I'll targz the source and email it to you offline if that would help. It is compiled with mingw, so should hopefully be simple to make it run on gcc and run the analyze component. thanks Jim From brain at jbrain.com Tue Feb 21 18:38:10 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 18:38:10 -0600 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: <20170221194808.5086210DF78F@bart0127.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <254532ec-74fa-9b6e-b2a4-d01f4d868a73@jbrain.com> <1d3a1a74-e03c-b5a4-8094-2e040d94a049@sydex.com> <4e1b5d93-efe4-353c-dc21-a2d5b0d3f201@jbrain.com> <20170221194808.5086210DF78F@bart0127.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <7bdf67d9-0714-0d75-64fa-ef00cbc68bb7@jbrain.com> On 2/21/2017 1:48 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > > Don't forget that 16L8 means 8 logic outputs and 16 inputs even though > at first glance there only seems to be 8 inputs. That is because every > output is also an input and can possibly be just an input by forcing the > three state option. One of the L8s uses an output as an input, but the design does not use any tristates or feedback on the L8s, so my job is easier. The R4 and R6 are harder, though, as feedback is used on one, and both have registers. Jim From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Feb 21 11:28:55 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:28:55 -0500 Subject: Q Bus Music Board In-Reply-To: <20170221141722.GG16529@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170221141722.GG16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <49e26c77-b2ba-70dc-5bb0-6a5e6818c755@verizon.net> On 2/21/17 9:17 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > This has been discussed on this mailinglist before (back in -95 and > -03). But with very little information came out of that. > > I'm curious about the "Q Bus Music Board" that DEC made. What system was > it used in, what software was available that took advantage of it, how > would you program it? > > All I know is from the cctalk threads and a few pictures from an ebay > auction, with missleading description, that I missed out on. The number > on the green handle is "93 08036" and on the PCB there is the number > "EY-0105E-MS-0101" and it looks like it has two AY-3-8192 synthesiser > chips. > > So, does anyone know anything more? > > And if anyone has one they could part with, I'd be interested. > > Kind Regards, > Pontus. > The board was called Gigilo. I have one and last I tried it it was operational I also have a minor chunk of code to do some music under RT11. Currently deeply buried and not in my easy search path. It was as believed at the time I worked for DEC that it was developed internally for things like DECworld. Its never been clear if it was for QBUS PDP-11 use or MicroVAX. I don't think it was ever made in quantity and mine is a unit that was floating around terminal and printers engineering in a random 11/23 that I still have. The number on the handle was the handle part number and not relevant to any product. The AY-3 are the sound generator chips as it does two channels of sound. The EY-0105e may be a document (spec or drawing). Allison From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Feb 21 13:17:42 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 20:17:42 +0100 Subject: Q Bus Music Board In-Reply-To: <49e26c77-b2ba-70dc-5bb0-6a5e6818c755@verizon.net> References: <20170221141722.GG16529@Update.UU.SE> <49e26c77-b2ba-70dc-5bb0-6a5e6818c755@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20170221191741.GH16529@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:28:55PM -0500, allison wrote: > > The board was called Gigilo. Ah, another keyword to look for. > I have one and last I tried it it was operational I also have a minor chunk > of code to do > some music under RT11. Currently deeply buried and not in my easy search > path. Is both code and hardware burried? Preserving the software for reference might be valuable should I ever find the hardware. > It was as believed at the time I worked for DEC that it was developed > internally for > things like DECworld. Its never been clear if it was for QBUS PDP-11 use > or MicroVAX. I see, uhm.. what is/was DECworld? > The number on the handle was the handle part number and not relevant to any > product. Ah, that explains the odd format (not an M-number). > The AY-3 are the sound generator chips as it does two channels of sound. > The EY-0105e may be a document (spec or drawing). It certainly looks like a DEC document numbering scheme. In the ebay auction it was decsribed a an "A6006 Analog output board". I think that is something entirely different, or is it related? Thank you for shedding some light on it. /P From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 00:18:09 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 00:18:09 -0600 Subject: Q Bus Music Board In-Reply-To: <20170221191741.GH16529@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170221141722.GG16529@Update.UU.SE> <49e26c77-b2ba-70dc-5bb0-6a5e6818c755@verizon.net> <20170221191741.GH16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: decworld was decus related? i know my father went to one of these conferences back in the day and won the rainbow100 door prize that they shipped to him all the way to the remote bush of northern manitoba. On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:28:55PM -0500, allison wrote: > > > > The board was called Gigilo. > > Ah, another keyword to look for. > > > I have one and last I tried it it was operational I also have a minor > chunk > > of code to do > > some music under RT11. Currently deeply buried and not in my easy > search > > path. > > Is both code and hardware burried? Preserving the software for reference > might be valuable should I ever find the hardware. > > > It was as believed at the time I worked for DEC that it was developed > > internally for > > things like DECworld. Its never been clear if it was for QBUS PDP-11 > use > > or MicroVAX. > > I see, uhm.. what is/was DECworld? > > > The number on the handle was the handle part number and not relevant to > any > > product. > > Ah, that explains the odd format (not an M-number). > > > The AY-3 are the sound generator chips as it does two channels of sound. > > The EY-0105e may be a document (spec or drawing). > > It certainly looks like a DEC document numbering scheme. In the ebay > auction it was decsribed a an "A6006 Analog output board". I think that > is something entirely different, or is it related? > > Thank you for shedding some light on it. > > /P > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Feb 22 01:02:08 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 23:02:08 -0800 Subject: Q Bus Music Board In-Reply-To: <20170221191741.GH16529@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170221141722.GG16529@Update.UU.SE> <49e26c77-b2ba-70dc-5bb0-6a5e6818c755@verizon.net> <20170221191741.GH16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <6a233272-8491-a5a2-c012-854574a44349@jwsss.com> On 2/21/2017 11:17 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > It certainly looks like a DEC document numbering scheme. In the ebay > auction it was decsribed a an "A6006 Analog output board". I think that > is something entirely different, or is it related? > > Thank you for shedding some light on it. > > /P That A6006 produces a hit in this document http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/qbus/EB-23144-18_QbusIntrfs_1983.pdf AAV11-C ANALOG OUTPUT BOARD Table 1, document page 18, PDF page 28 for the index entry AAV11-C document page 37 PDF page 47 for the description Interesting board, 4 DACs, and a DC-DC converter. Thanks Jim From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Feb 22 02:08:11 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 09:08:11 +0100 Subject: Q Bus Music Board In-Reply-To: <6a233272-8491-a5a2-c012-854574a44349@jwsss.com> References: <20170221141722.GG16529@Update.UU.SE> <49e26c77-b2ba-70dc-5bb0-6a5e6818c755@verizon.net> <20170221191741.GH16529@Update.UU.SE> <6a233272-8491-a5a2-c012-854574a44349@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20170222080809.GJ16529@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 11:02:08PM -0800, jim stephens wrote: > > That A6006 produces a hit in this document > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/qbus/EB-23144-18_QbusIntrfs_1983.pdf > > AAV11-C ANALOG OUTPUT BOARD > > Table 1, document page 18, PDF page 28 for the index entry > AAV11-C document page 37 PDF page 47 for the description > > Interesting board, 4 DACs, and a DC-DC converter. > Definitely something else. Thank you, Pontus. From harry.barman at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 05:07:22 2017 From: harry.barman at gmail.com (Harry Barman) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 11:07:22 +0000 Subject: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay Message-ID: Just saw this when browsing on ebay... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IBM-SERIES-1-1976-WHOLE-MACHINE-VERY-RARE-/272564288456?hash=item3f7618fbc8:g:ZIoAAOSwOgdYrFer From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 05:47:42 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 11:47:42 -0000 Subject: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005a01d28d01$86db7a20$94926e60$@outlook.com> Price is a bit silly.... ... the last one sold in the USA went for $200... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Harry > Barman > Sent: 22 February 2017 11:07 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay > > Just saw this when browsing on ebay... > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IBM-SERIES-1-1976-WHOLE-MACHINE-VERY- > RARE-/272564288456?hash=item3f7618fbc8:g:ZIoAAOSwOgdYrFer From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Feb 22 09:33:49 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 07:33:49 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay In-Reply-To: <005a01d28d01$86db7a20$94926e60$@outlook.com> References: <005a01d28d01$86db7a20$94926e60$@outlook.com> Message-ID: <6cc2fc6f-2e11-aff4-fe82-0d2d7a003590@jwsss.com> On 2/22/2017 3:47 AM, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com wrote: > Price is a bit silly.... > ... the last one sold in the USA went for $200... > > Dave Also, the motorcycle term used to describe this system's condition, is "ridden hard and put up wet". Compare to $5000 asking for the full running PDP 11/34 which was listed (and I think is still wanting for a bid) recently. I didn't see software, and if there is a hard drive with anything useful in the storage conditions I doubt you will be happy with trying to ever run it. Sad to see it in that condition, and definitely not rare and desirable enough to be worth the price. thanks jim From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Feb 22 10:45:33 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 10:45:33 -0600 Subject: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay In-Reply-To: <6cc2fc6f-2e11-aff4-fe82-0d2d7a003590@jwsss.com> References: <005a01d28d01$86db7a20$94926e60$@outlook.com> <6cc2fc6f-2e11-aff4-fe82-0d2d7a003590@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20170222164533.GA4045@lonesome.com> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 07:33:49AM -0800, jim stephens wrote: > Also, the motorcycle term used to describe this system's condition, is > "ridden hard and put up wet". Hmm, in Texas I have only heard that used to apply to horses. mcl From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Feb 22 11:16:16 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:16:16 +0000 Subject: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay In-Reply-To: <6cc2fc6f-2e11-aff4-fe82-0d2d7a003590@jwsss.com> References: <005a01d28d01$86db7a20$94926e60$@outlook.com>, <6cc2fc6f-2e11-aff4-fe82-0d2d7a003590@jwsss.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of jim stephens [jwsmail at jwsss.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 10:33 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay On 2/22/2017 3:47 AM, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com wrote: > Price is a bit silly.... > ... the last one sold in the USA went for $200... > > Dave Also, the motorcycle term used to describe this system's condition, is "ridden hard and put up wet". Compare to $5000 asking for the full running PDP 11/34 which was listed (and I think is still wanting for a bid) recently. ___________________________________________________ For $5000 I would even consider selling some of my PDP-11's The best offer I ever had was $100 for everything (about 10 working systems) minus the heavy parts that even the scrapyard usually won't take. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Feb 22 11:17:31 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:17:31 +0000 Subject: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay In-Reply-To: <20170222164533.GA4045@lonesome.com> References: <005a01d28d01$86db7a20$94926e60$@outlook.com> <6cc2fc6f-2e11-aff4-fe82-0d2d7a003590@jwsss.com>, <20170222164533.GA4045@lonesome.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Mark Linimon [linimon at lonesome.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:45 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 07:33:49AM -0800, jim stephens wrote: > Also, the motorcycle term used to describe this system's condition, is > "ridden hard and put up wet". Hmm, in Texas I have only heard that used to apply to horses. _____________________________________________ I ride both horses and motorcycles and I have never heard that particual phrasing used for a motorcycle. bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 22 11:24:56 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 12:24:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay Message-ID: <20170222172456.B580118C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jim Stephens > Compare to $5000 asking for the full running PDP 11/34 which was listed > (and I think is still wanting for a bid) recently. No, it sold on re-list, for the US$5K asking. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 12:02:31 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 10:02:31 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <005a01d28d01$86db7a20$94926e60$@outlook.com> <6cc2fc6f-2e11-aff4-fe82-0d2d7a003590@jwsss.com> <20170222164533.GA4045@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 02/22/2017 09:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > I ride both horses and motorcycles and I have never heard that > particual phrasing used for a motorcycle. I'd always heard it (for horses) as "rode hard and put up wet". http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rode%20hard%20and%20put%20up%20wet --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Feb 22 12:12:52 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 10:12:52 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <005a01d28d01$86db7a20$94926e60$@outlook.com> <6cc2fc6f-2e11-aff4-fe82-0d2d7a003590@jwsss.com> <20170222164533.GA4045@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 2/22/2017 10:02 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 02/22/2017 09:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> I ride both horses and motorcycles and I have never heard that >> particual phrasing used for a motorcycle. > I'd always heard it (for horses) as "rode hard and put up wet". > > http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rode%20hard%20and%20put%20up%20wet > > > --Chuck Several friends who do a lot of Harley riding use the term with Hogs that were not treated right. I adopted it for such as the Series/1 system which has serious condition issues. The first photos that were dimly lit I thought were the edges of the slip case document binders, and if so were probably shot. Then I realized that the one plate was the metal ID badge. The other labels look bad, as does a lot of the other closeups. I didn't see any photos of the internals either. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 22 12:49:10 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 13:49:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Q Bus Music Board Message-ID: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jim Stephens > That A6006 produces a hit in this document > ... > AAV11-C ANALOG OUTPUT BOARD > ... > 4 DACs, and a DC-DC converter. Sounds like it might be a standard analog output board, for lab settings. I'll bet the music thing is some marketing ploy, like the card game in 'The Story of Mel'. (What, you haven't read 'The Story of Mel'?!? :-) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Feb 22 12:58:15 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 13:58:15 -0500 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> > On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:49 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Jim Stephens > >> That A6006 produces a hit in this document >> ... >> AAV11-C ANALOG OUTPUT BOARD >> ... >> 4 DACs, and a DC-DC converter. > > Sounds like it might be a standard analog output board, for lab settings. > I'll bet the music thing is some marketing ploy, like the card game in 'The > Story of Mel'. (What, you haven't read 'The Story of Mel'?!? :-) Speaking of which, I wonder if the code for that program still exists. Would be nice to run on the LGPs that are still around (or on the simulator). paul From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 13:13:39 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 14:13:39 -0500 Subject: Hello! Finally on cctalk! Message-ID: <20170222141339.e8d4809a04c5f8285888b7c3@gmail.com> Hello all! I've tried to sign up for cctalk several times over the years, and never had a successful registration. Seems this time worked. I'm Jonathan, glitch on some other lists and forums, I'm the one responsible for glitchwrks.com. I hack on old computers, pre-PC stuff, mostly S-100, PDP-11 (largely QBus), and Ohio Scientific. I do industrial systems engineering/repair, legacy systems support, and server-side programming for $day_job. Also starting to get into *selling* some of my hobby designs as kits. Thanks, Jonathan From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 22 13:18:50 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 14:18:50 -0500 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> Message-ID: <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> On 2/22/17 1:58 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:49 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> From: Jim Stephens >>> That A6006 produces a hit in this document >>> ... >>> AAV11-C ANALOG OUTPUT BOARD >>> ... >>> 4 DACs, and a DC-DC converter. >> Sounds like it might be a standard analog output board, for lab settings. >> I'll bet the music thing is some marketing ploy, like the card game in 'The >> Story of Mel'. (What, you haven't read 'The Story of Mel'?!? :-) > Speaking of which, I wonder if the code for that program still exists. Would be nice to run on the LGPs that are still around (or on the simulator). The AAV11-C is an analog output board and I know of no code for it as it was usually part of a user application. Same for its complementing Analog input board ADV-11 M8000 and in systemss ussually appered with M6010 digital output card, IBV-11 M7954 instrument bus interface. See MINC-11 systems for more. The sound (not music) card was actually a internally built and not sold (that I know of). But people did use the D/A cards to do music by outputting in real time created waveforms or by toggling bits on parallel cards. Allison > > paul > > From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Feb 22 13:37:13 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 14:37:13 -0500 Subject: Hello! Finally on cctalk! In-Reply-To: <20170222141339.e8d4809a04c5f8285888b7c3@gmail.com> References: <20170222141339.e8d4809a04c5f8285888b7c3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <10127bcf-84d0-daf1-8bb9-f47bc1a9f2d1@snarc.net> > Hello all! I've tried to sign up for cctalk several times over the years, and never had a successful registration. Seems this time worked. > > I'm Jonathan, glitch on some other lists and forums, I'm the one responsible for glitchwrks.com. I hack on old computers, pre-PC stuff, mostly S-100, PDP-11 (largely QBus), and Ohio Scientific. I do industrial systems engineering/repair, legacy systems support, and server-side programming for $day_job. Also starting to get into *selling* some of my hobby designs as kits. Glad you finally made it here! Everyone: Jon will be teaching how to make his hacks, kits, etc. all three days of VCF East. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 22 13:41:49 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 19:41:49 +0000 Subject: Hello! Finally on cctalk! In-Reply-To: <20170222141339.e8d4809a04c5f8285888b7c3@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 22/02/2017 19:13, "Systems Glitch" wrote: > Hello all! I've tried to sign up for cctalk several times over the years, and > never had a successful registration. Seems this time worked. > > I'm Jonathan, glitch on some other lists and forums, I'm the one responsible > for glitchwrks.com. I hack on old computers, pre-PC stuff, mostly S-100, > PDP-11 (largely QBus), and Ohio Scientific. I do industrial systems > engineering/repair, legacy systems support, and server-side programming for > $day_job. Also starting to get into *selling* some of my hobby designs as > kits. > > Thanks, > Jonathan *doffs cap* I thought I recognised the name :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Feb 22 13:51:41 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 14:51:41 -0500 Subject: AAV-11 In-Reply-To: <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> Message-ID: > On Feb 22, 2017, at 2:18 PM, allison wrote: > >> ... > The AAV11-C is an analog output board and I know of no code for it as it was usually part of a user application. > Same for its complementing Analog input board ADV-11 M8000 and in systemss ussually appered with M6010 > digital output card, IBV-11 M7954 instrument bus interface. See MINC-11 systems for more. At my alma mater, the physics department had an 11/20 with AD01 and AA11 analog I/O, as well as DR11-A digital I/O and KW11-P programmable clock. Originally that system ran DOS (8 kW, RC-11 system disk). One of the professors had extended DEC BASIC to drive those peripherals. For an honors project, I did the same and more with RT BASIC. Among other things, you could write interrupt handlers in BASIC to respond to digital inputs or clock signals. I also wrote a crude CRT display program by sending X/Y pairs to the AD01 and then to the X and Y inputs of a scope. Refresh memory was on the RC11, using bus address increment to DMA directly from disk to AD01. paul From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 14:18:23 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:18:23 -0500 Subject: WTB: IM-6100s / OSI 560Z Project Message-ID: <20170222151823.298f69c29378608fdb8f721c@gmail.com> All, Dave from osiweb.org and I have been working on reproducing some Ohio Scientific boards, including the OSI 560Z "processor lab." The 560Z is probably most well-known for allowing the user to run PDP-8/E code on an OSI using an Intersil IM-6100 PDP-8 compatible CPU. I'm getting parts kits together for these boards, but I've been unable to find IM-6100s through any of the usual supply channels. I have a handful from my personal stash, I'll probably be selling all but one. Does anyone have some they want to sell? I'll be reselling them to other hobbyists at whatever price I can get them for. Thanks, Jonathan From ats at offog.org Wed Feb 22 14:42:33 2017 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:42:33 +0000 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> (Paul Koning's message of "Wed, 22 Feb 2017 13:58:15 -0500") References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> Message-ID: Paul Koning writes: > Speaking of which, I wonder if the code for that program still exists. > Would be nice to run on the LGPs that are still around (or on the > simulator). The LGP-30 version certainly does: ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/lgp30/papertapes/Games/ The story is about porting it to the RPC-4000, though. The manual for the RPC-4000 version (including the cheat switch) is on Bitsavers: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/royalPrecision/RPC-4000/programWriteups/W1-01.0_Blackjack_Game.pdf -- Adam Sampson From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Feb 22 15:08:50 2017 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 16:08:50 -0500 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20170222205944.M10769@kw.igs.net> On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:42:33 +0000, Adam Sampson wrote > Paul Koning writes: > > > Speaking of which, I wonder if the code for that program still exists. > > Would be nice to run on the LGPs that are still around (or on the > > simulator). > > The LGP-30 version certainly does: > ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/lgp30/papertapes/Games/ I've disassembled and partly annoted that; it turns out the LGP30 version also has a 'cheat switch', and invoking it benefits the player. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 21:05:04 2017 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:05:04 -0700 Subject: Sun E10000 Historical Enquiry In-Reply-To: <20170220134911.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.563b9eb852.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> References: <20170220134911.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.563b9eb852.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Celerity Computing 6000 (multi processor scalar and vector;; San Diego, CA. bought out by Floating Point Systems. then bought out by Cray then bough out by SUN. On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 1:49 PM, Steve Hatle wrote: > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: Sun E10000 Historical Enquiry > From: Jonathan KatzThere was a guy who I used to talk to who was on one > of the > Sun lists and was based in the top-tier hardware development/software > development out of San Diego, and then later he moved east, but I > forgot who that was. > > == > > I know who it is - we're still in contact once in a while. I plan to > ping him and see if he's interested in participating. I also have > another friend who drove a number of E10Ks for a large company here in > the Twin Cities. > > Steve > > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 23 00:13:54 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 06:13:54 +0000 Subject: after a long search, I found the Dr. Dobbs bound volumes Message-ID: Located here: http://6502.org/documents/publications/dr_dobbs_journal/ Apologies to the list if this is common knowledge. Randy 6502.org: Documents Archive 6502.org A collection of useful documents pertaining to the 6502 microprocessor. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 00:31:04 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 00:31:04 -0600 Subject: after a long search, I found the Dr. Dobbs bound volumes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: cool!! first one page 61 has a music program for the altair On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 12:13 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Located here: > > > http://6502.org/documents/publications/dr_dobbs_journal/ > > > > Apologies to the list if this is common knowledge. > > > Randy > > 6502.org: Documents Archive dobbs_journal/> > 6502.org > A collection of useful documents pertaining to the 6502 microprocessor. > > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Feb 23 02:19:46 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 09:19:46 +0100 Subject: Sun E10000 Historical Enquiry In-Reply-To: References: <20170220134911.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.563b9eb852.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <20170223081945.GL16529@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 08:05:04PM -0700, Robert Ollerton wrote: > Celerity Computing 6000 (multi processor scalar and vector;; San Diego, CA. > bought out by Floating Point Systems. > then bought out by Cray then SGI bought Cray whic sold the "Superserver" part to SUN. SGI put their money into the Origin2k and didn't see the need/potential in Starfire which became the E10k The rest of Cray became "Cray Research" which was sold to Tera Computer Company which was renamed Cray Inc. (SGI was later bought by Rackable which was renamed to SGI) /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Feb 23 02:22:27 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 09:22:27 +0100 Subject: Q Bus Music Board In-Reply-To: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170223082227.GM16529@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 01:49:10PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Sounds like it might be a standard analog output board, for lab settings. > I'll bet the music thing is some marketing ploy, like the card game in 'The > Story of Mel'. (What, you haven't read 'The Story of Mel'?!? :-) > But of course I have :) From other at oryx.us Thu Feb 23 02:22:49 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 02:22:49 -0600 Subject: Sun E10000 Historical Enquiry In-Reply-To: <20170223081945.GL16529@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170220134911.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.563b9eb852.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> <20170223081945.GL16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: then HP purchases SGI Reference: Jerry On 02/23/17 02:19 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 08:05:04PM -0700, Robert Ollerton wrote: >> Celerity Computing 6000 (multi processor scalar and vector;; San Diego, CA. >> bought out by Floating Point Systems. >> then bought out by Cray > > then SGI bought Cray whic sold the "Superserver" part to SUN. SGI put > their money into the Origin2k and didn't see the need/potential in > Starfire which became the E10k > > The rest of Cray became "Cray Research" which was sold to Tera Computer > Company which was renamed Cray Inc. > > (SGI was later bought by Rackable which was renamed to SGI) > > /P > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Feb 23 02:23:48 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 09:23:48 +0100 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:18:50PM -0500, allison wrote: > > The sound (not music) card was actually a internally built and not sold > (that I know of). There must have been a few though, since several claim to have one and it even showed up on ebay. (I'm just hoping I'l get lucky and find one.. I have an 11/73 with graphics, it would be nice to add sound to it) /P From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 05:36:45 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 11:36:45 +0000 Subject: Q Bus Music Board In-Reply-To: <20170223082227.GM16529@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170223082227.GM16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 01:49:10PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> Sounds like it might be a standard analog output board, for lab settings. >> I'll bet the music thing is some marketing ploy, like the card game in 'The >> Story of Mel'. (What, you haven't read 'The Story of Mel'?!? :-) >> > > But of course I have :) As have I. In fact I am pretty sure I referenced it in my Ph.D. thesis... -tony From cctalk at snarc.net Thu Feb 23 00:52:19 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 01:52:19 -0500 Subject: after a long search, I found the Dr. Dobbs bound volumes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6257dd02-d6df-dfb0-1cc6-abd7ba45a5d2@snarc.net> > http://6502.org/documents/publications/dr_dobbs_journal/ > > Apologies to the list if this is common knowledge. We have the physical ones in the VCFed museum. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 23 01:27:31 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 07:27:31 +0000 Subject: How to refurbish plotter pens? In-Reply-To: <20170128183402.GA3177@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: , <20170128183402.GA3177@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: Suggestion: drop them in an ultrasonic cleaner with solvent... ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of David Gesswein Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 10:34 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: How to refurbish plotter pens? On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 03:51:49PM +0100, Mattis Lind wrote: > I am about to get our IBM1627 (rebranded Calcomp 565) going but the pens in > the case is quite dry. What is the best method to refurbish those? What is > the best solvent to get the old ink out? What ink to refill with? > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-rp4vyPPYu1ZjVRbnlyczV4czQ > That looks like the unpressurized ballpoint. I never tried to refill mine. Another option is making replacements. I found current ballpoint refills and cut them down. I used a dremmel with cutoff disk. Watch for splatters. I then stuck something in to remove 1/4" or so of the ink from the end. Otherwise it will come out in the pen holder and make a mess. The problem now is almost all refills use a larger diameter tip. I had to look around some before I found the proper size. I did grind one larger diameter one down by chucking it in a drill and grinding with the dremel. From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Thu Feb 23 01:32:51 2017 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Stephen Merrony) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 07:32:51 -0000 Subject: Data General MTB Reference Sought In-Reply-To: <5c415494-cc4c-d835-8c95-213f3d52b83a@Wild-Hare.com> References: <3d6a8d42-ca4e-325a-de30-5d84df82482f@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <5c415494-cc4c-d835-8c95-213f3d52b83a@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: <002b01d28da7$0a992830$1fcb7890$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Hi Bruce, Thanks for that confirmation of my hazy memory! What I can't seem to find is any reference as to how the tape drives interact with the DCH bus and the associated map slots. I thought maybe a later guide might cover that? Steve -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Ray [mailto:Bruce at Wild-Hare.com] Sent: 25 January 2017 18:23 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Data General MTB Reference Sought G'day Steve - AOS/VS OS tape drive base names are MTA, MTB, MTC, etc. and do not directly correspond to the assembler mnemonic name(s) - don't be confused by this difference. The AOS/VS 'MTA'-type tape drive is described on page IV-5. These correspond to the original DG model 4030/6020 units. The AOS/VS 'MTB'-type tape drive is described on page IV-15. These correspond to the DG model 6026 units. The AOS/VS 'MTC'-type tape drive is internally the same as the MTB except only a single unit is supported. This was done to distinguish single-unit support for the popular DG model 6125 streamer. The IV-15 mag tape programming model was consistent between the Nova/Eclipse/MV bus controllers and the Lbus controllers through emulation. One size [almost] fit all. What difference(s) are you seeing? Bruce On 1/25/2017 1:01 AM, Stephen Merrony wrote: > Does anyone have (a scan of) a manual that covers programming the > MV-era MTB tape controller? > > I have a 1980 "Peripherals" manual (014-000632-01) from the > "Programmer's Reference Series" which covers the MTA type, but it > seems that the MTB behaves a bit differently and I am missing some > information for my current project. > > Thanks, > > Steve > From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 23 05:10:54 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 06:10:54 -0500 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <1af7e2c5-728b-4571-2b34-3e3b1cb16f0c@verizon.net> On 02/23/2017 03:23 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:18:50PM -0500, allison wrote: >> The sound (not music) card was actually a internally built and not sold >> (that I know of). > There must have been a few though, since several claim to have one and > it even showed up on ebay. > > (I'm just hoping I'l get lucky and find one.. I have an 11/73 with > graphics, it would be nice to add sound to it) > > /P > The sound card was a rare item and i'd guess there are very few ever built and never sold. Why not find the very much more common D to A card and drive that with software to make noise or music. Or even a single bit output! Allison From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Feb 23 07:25:24 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:25:24 +0000 Subject: Q Bus Music Board In-Reply-To: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa [jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 1:49 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Q Bus Music Board > From: Jim Stephens > That A6006 produces a hit in this document > ... > AAV11-C ANALOG OUTPUT BOARD > ... > 4 DACs, and a DC-DC converter. Sounds like it might be a standard analog output board, for lab settings. I'll bet the music thing is some marketing ploy, like the card game in 'The Story of Mel'. (What, you haven't read 'The Story of Mel'?!? :-) Noel ________________________________________ I think IO have a couple of them but I never heard them play music. :-) bill From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 23 08:37:03 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 06:37:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: after a long search, I found the Dr. Dobbs bound volumes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Feb 2017, Randy Dawson wrote: > Located here: > > > http://6502.org/documents/publications/dr_dobbs_journal/ > Were there only 13 volumes produced? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 09:24:32 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 10:24:32 -0500 Subject: after a long search, I found the Dr. Dobbs bound volumes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 9:37 AM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 23 Feb 2017, Randy Dawson wrote: > > Located here: >> >> >> http://6502.org/documents/publications/dr_dobbs_journal/ >> >> Were there only 13 volumes produced? > > g. > > > I know 1989 copies are all marked volume 14. I don't have any newer than that. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Feb 23 10:26:54 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 17:26:54 +0100 Subject: Q Bus Music Board In-Reply-To: References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170223162654.GO16529@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 01:25:24PM +0000, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > I think IO have a couple of them but I never heard them play music. :-) A couple of A6006 or a couple of Q Bus Music Boards? (I'm guessing A6006, I think that even I have D/A boards lying around) /P From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Feb 23 10:34:18 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 16:34:18 +0000 Subject: Q Bus Music Board In-Reply-To: <20170223162654.GO16529@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> , <20170223162654.GO16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Pontus Pihlgren [pontus at Update.UU.SE] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 11:26 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Q Bus Music Board On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 01:25:24PM +0000, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > I think IO have a couple of them but I never heard them play music. :-) A couple of A6006 or a couple of Q Bus Music Boards? (I'm guessing A6006, I think that even I have D/A boards lying around) __________________________________________ Don't remember the numbers and they are packed away as I haven't done much with my PDP's since moving 3 yearsago but they are the A/D, D/A boards probably from a MINC somewhere. At the time I got them I was getting interested in robotics, HVAC and home control and the PDP's seemed like reasonale candidates as it's all for fun anyway. Might be fun to make one talk Bluetooth and then use it to control Lego MIndstorms and even my Roomba's. bill From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 23 11:24:53 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 10:24:53 -0700 Subject: Q Bus Music Board In-Reply-To: References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170223082227.GM16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4ad4c5e6-3a11-e995-5bea-b1af5b3f6898@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/23/2017 4:36 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 01:49:10PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> >>> Sounds like it might be a standard analog output board, for lab settings. >>> I'll bet the music thing is some marketing ploy, like the card game in 'The >>> Story of Mel'. (What, you haven't read 'The Story of Mel'?!? :-) >>> >> >> But of course I have :) > > As have I. In fact I am pretty sure I referenced it in my Ph.D. thesis... > > -tony PDP 8's sound is more fun ... Listen via radio. :) Ben. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 13:45:44 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 11:45:44 -0800 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Feb 23, 2017 12:23 AM, "Pontus Pihlgren" wrote: (I'm just hoping I'l get lucky and find one.. I have an 11/73 with graphics, it would be nice to add sound to it) What do you have for graphics? I have a DEC VSV11 board set and a Matrox QC-640 board. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 23 14:02:50 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 12:02:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I love the wisdom of Allison's remark, that what some of us still see as "recent current events" is "ancient history" for the youngsters. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 14:08:25 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 15:08:25 -0500 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I love the wisdom of Allison's remark, that > what some of us still see as "recent current events" > is "ancient history" for the youngsters. Indeed. That break-point is entirely relative to one's own age and experiences... for me, "ancient history" is either pre-PET/Apple II/TRS-80 stuff or perhaps just "8-bit home micros", depending on the context. -ethan From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 14:31:21 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 15:31:21 -0500 Subject: story of Mel References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <0ED8C32F81B7485480F96B4D8FB40627@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 3:08 PM Subject: Re: story of Mel > On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I love the wisdom of Allison's remark, that >> what some of us still see as "recent current events" >> is "ancient history" for the youngsters. > > Indeed. That break-point is entirely relative to one's own age and > experiences... for me, "ancient history" is either pre-PET/Apple > II/TRS-80 stuff or perhaps just "8-bit home micros", depending on the > context. > > -ethan ------- My "ancient history" is running a system consisting of an IBM 082, an 085, a 604, a 402 and a 514, the original "sneakernet"; later, after promotion to run the statistics department, a relatively rare 101. Even made the 402 multiply (albeit slowly) when "they" said it couldn't be done; many happy memories... m From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 14:46:14 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 15:46:14 -0500 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: <0ED8C32F81B7485480F96B4D8FB40627@310e2> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> <0ED8C32F81B7485480F96B4D8FB40627@310e2> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 3:31 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ethan Dicks" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 3:08 PM > Subject: Re: story of Mel > > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> I love the wisdom of Allison's remark, that > >> what some of us still see as "recent current events" > >> is "ancient history" for the youngsters. > > > > Indeed. That break-point is entirely relative to one's own age and > > experiences... for me, "ancient history" is either pre-PET/Apple > > II/TRS-80 stuff or perhaps just "8-bit home micros", depending on the > > context. > > > > -ethan > ------- > > My "ancient history" is running a system consisting of an IBM 082, an 085, > a 604, a 402 and a 514, the original "sneakernet"; later, after promotion > to run the statistics department, a relatively rare 101. > > Even made the 402 multiply (albeit slowly) when "they" said it couldn't be > done; many happy memories... > > m > There are a few Easter eggs on my web site, one points to my biography. Click on "1949" in the copyright statement at the bottom of my home page, vintagecomputer.net Bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Feb 23 15:14:11 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 21:14:11 +0000 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> , Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin [cisin at xenosoft.com] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 3:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: story of Mel I love the wisdom of Allison's remark, that what some of us still see as "recent current events" is "ancient history" for the youngsters. ___________________________________ I certainly hope people here don't think I'm a youngster since I just (re)joined the list. I started in computers with the 1401. I didn't look at computer generated music until I saw the talks at Usenix Nashville 1991. Especialy the one done by the guys from Bell Labs. I always had an interest in music as well as computers but didn't connect the two at first. Now I am very interested in MIDI. I am in the process of converting an old Baldwin 46H Console to MIDI (as the electronics in it were shot and beyond possibility of repair.) Once I had my COCO 3's up again if I coudn't figure it out myself I was going to ask about interfacing between my Casio keyboard and my Orchestra-90. It could prove rather interesting to use a COCO as the sysnthesizer for the Console Organ once it is rewired. :-) bill From chd at chdickman.com Thu Feb 23 17:58:56 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 18:58:56 -0500 Subject: Looking for a toggle switch Message-ID: I need to replace the toggle switch on the M848 power fail and restart board for a pdp8/e. It is a singer controls corp T8001 as best I can read on it. A month or so ago I search and found an exact replacement, but Google is now failing me and I can't find it back. Anybody know who bought Singers switch product line? From chrise at pobox.com Thu Feb 23 21:12:48 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 21:12:48 -0600 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <3ED148B8-3709-4FDF-98C2-EB835526C7C4@pobox.com> On February 23, 2017 2:02:50 PM CST, Fred Cisin wrote: >I love the wisdom of Allison's remark, that >what some of us still see as "recent current events" >is "ancient history" for the youngsters. and the youngsters insist on reinventing dirt. -- Chris Elmquist From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 23 09:48:12 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 10:48:12 -0500 Subject: Q Bus Music Board In-Reply-To: References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2/23/17 8:25 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa [jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 1:49 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Q Bus Music Board > > > From: Jim Stephens > > > That A6006 produces a hit in this document > > ... > > AAV11-C ANALOG OUTPUT BOARD > > ... > > 4 DACs, and a DC-DC converter. > > Sounds like it might be a standard analog output board, for lab settings. > I'll bet the music thing is some marketing ploy, like the card game in 'The > Story of Mel'. (What, you haven't read 'The Story of Mel'?!? :-) > > Noel > > ________________________________________ > > I think IO have a couple of them but I never heard them play music. :-) > > bill I have two of them and a RT-11 program in macro that can output tones and clicks music is just an extension of that. To do music (or sounds with an D/A) card its a matter of moving a sequence of bytes/words in a regular periodic rate representing the voltage for instant of the wave form. For tones its a loop with values for amplitude, frequency, and wave shape. For a simple output card its a matter of changing the state of a single bit at the required rate (flip it once every half millisecond and you get a 1khz tone). If an PDP-8, 6502, 8080 and many others can do it a pdp-11 and any output can. Hell I've heard Line printers play music and asr33s rattling out a crude version of Jingle bells complete with bell! Allison > From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 23 10:04:15 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 11:04:15 -0500 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <547b6025-a443-9bad-db37-607740ea7e7d@verizon.net> On 2/23/17 3:23 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:18:50PM -0500, allison wrote: >> The sound (not music) card was actually a internally built and not sold >> (that I know of). > There must have been a few though, since several claim to have one and > it even showed up on ebay. > > (I'm just hoping I'l get lucky and find one.. I have an 11/73 with > graphics, it would be nice to add sound to it) > > /P > Last time I needed just a beep it was the DTR line on the async card being flipped by a simple loop. If you flip it and leave it you get a click.... Obviously you need an amplifier(maybe or a transistor) and speaker to hear it. The sound card I have is not part of the OS (any) and there is no support so it does nothing without code and a d/a or even a few bits will do sound. FYI there was many articles in the micro world on doing sound and music in Byte and DDJ back when (1975 to mid 80s) in the time before PCs and sound cards. For example Processor Technologies Music system. See http://www.sol20.org/manuals/music.pdf for the manual on that. I believe it was Polymorphic systems that did a polyphonic sound system for z80 computers. Those are samples of interest connected with computer music back then. Allison From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Feb 23 10:16:16 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 16:16:16 +0000 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: <547b6025-a443-9bad-db37-607740ea7e7d@verizon.net> References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE>, <547b6025-a443-9bad-db37-607740ea7e7d@verizon.net> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctech [cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of allison [ajp166 at verizon.net] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 11:04 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: story of Mel On 2/23/17 3:23 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:18:50PM -0500, allison wrote: >> The sound (not music) card was actually a internally built and not sold >> (that I know of). > There must have been a few though, since several claim to have one and > it even showed up on ebay. > > (I'm just hoping I'l get lucky and find one.. I have an 11/73 with > graphics, it would be nice to add sound to it) > > /P > Last time I needed just a beep it was the DTR line on the async card being flipped by a simple loop. If you flip it and leave it you get a click.... Obviously you need an amplifier(maybe or a transistor) and speaker to hear it. The sound card I have is not part of the OS (any) and there is no support so it does nothing without code and a d/a or even a few bits will do sound. FYI there was many articles in the micro world on doing sound and music in Byte and DDJ back when (1975 to mid 80s) in the time before PCs and sound cards. For example Processor Technologies Music system. See http://www.sol20.org/manuals/music.pdf for the manual on that. I believe it was Polymorphic systems that did a polyphonic sound system for z80 computers. Those are samples of interest connected with computer music back then. ____________________________________________ I always thought music in the old days was more about MIDI and letting something designed for it do the work ala Usenix Nashville 1991. bill From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 23 12:18:09 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:18:09 -0500 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> <547b6025-a443-9bad-db37-607740ea7e7d@verizon.net> Message-ID: <30173cc9-06ae-3885-e658-9818c610eda8@verizon.net> On 2/23/17 11:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > ________________________________________ > From: cctech [cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of allison [ajp166 at verizon.net] > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 11:04 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: story of Mel > > On 2/23/17 3:23 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:18:50PM -0500, allison wrote: >>> The sound (not music) card was actually a internally built and not sold >>> (that I know of). >> There must have been a few though, since several claim to have one and >> it even showed up on ebay. >> >> (I'm just hoping I'l get lucky and find one.. I have an 11/73 with >> graphics, it would be nice to add sound to it) >> >> /P >> > Last time I needed just a beep it was the DTR line on the async card > being flipped > by a simple loop. If you flip it and leave it you get a click.... > Obviously you need > an amplifier(maybe or a transistor) and speaker to hear it. > > The sound card I have is not part of the OS (any) and there is no > support so it does > nothing without code and a d/a or even a few bits will do sound. > > FYI there was many articles in the micro world on doing sound and music > in Byte and DDJ back when (1975 to mid 80s) in the time before PCs and > sound cards. For example Processor Technologies Music system. > > See http://www.sol20.org/manuals/music.pdf for the manual on that. > > I believe it was Polymorphic systems that did a polyphonic sound system > for z80 computers. > > Those are samples of interest connected with computer music back then. > > ____________________________________________ > > I always thought music in the old days was more about MIDI and letting > something designed for it do the work ala Usenix Nashville 1991. > > bill > To you that's the old days. To me its recent history. Midi became the common bus to talk to instruments and drivers (keyboards, synthetic strings and all) of all sorts. It popped up in the early 80s as a viable bus for music and stage control IO. Before midi... when dirt was relatively new then, we used computers and software to do things like flip the PDP-8 link bit and a speaker attached. Fancy would have been a R2R of 5 or 8 bits as simple D/A on a parallel output port (or LP11) and with the right timing loops and maybe some data you could synthesize any waveform and most any pitch. if the machine was fast enough. Of course you need a music input too and something to compile it to data and commands (or did it using a #2 and paper). There was a major conference in the 70s for computer generated music. Look up NOTRAN. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 23 12:24:13 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:24:13 -0500 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> <547b6025-a443-9bad-db37-607740ea7e7d@verizon.net> Message-ID: <18c510bf-6cac-4524-ca87-e01f1156a7e8@verizon.net> On 2/23/17 11:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > ________________________________________ > From: cctech [cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of allison [ajp166 at verizon.net] > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 11:04 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: story of Mel > > On 2/23/17 3:23 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:18:50PM -0500, allison wrote: >>> The sound (not music) card was actually a internally built and not sold >>> (that I know of). >> There must have been a few though, since several claim to have one and >> it even showed up on ebay. >> >> (I'm just hoping I'l get lucky and find one.. I have an 11/73 with >> graphics, it would be nice to add sound to it) >> >> /P >> > Last time I needed just a beep it was the DTR line on the async card > being flipped > by a simple loop. If you flip it and leave it you get a click.... > Obviously you need > an amplifier(maybe or a transistor) and speaker to hear it. > > The sound card I have is not part of the OS (any) and there is no > support so it does > nothing without code and a d/a or even a few bits will do sound. > > FYI there was many articles in the micro world on doing sound and music > in Byte and DDJ back when (1975 to mid 80s) in the time before PCs and > sound cards. For example Processor Technologies Music system. > > See http://www.sol20.org/manuals/music.pdf for the manual on that. > > I believe it was Polymorphic systems that did a polyphonic sound system > for z80 computers. > > Those are samples of interest connected with computer music back then. > > ____________________________________________ > > I always thought music in the old days was more about MIDI and letting > something designed for it do the work ala Usenix Nashville 1991. > > bill Right after the creation of dirt was the first Philadelphia computer music Festival... I have the vinyl created back then for it and its interesting listening. https://www.vintagecomputermusic.com/notran_system.php This is how it was done when programmer wrote code. ;) Allison > From commodorejohn at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 13:19:59 2017 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 11:19:59 -0800 Subject: story of Mel Message-ID: > From: Bill Gunshannon > I always thought music in the old days was more about MIDI and letting > something designed for it do the work ala Usenix Nashville 1991. The MIDI control standard wasn't even finalized until 1983, and it took a couple years to really proliferate after that. Most computers at the time required a dedicated MIDI adapter because of its unusual baud rate (31.25Kbaud, not one supported by most standard UART setups) - the Mac, Amiga, and Atari ST could all handle MIDI with nothing more than a breakout box (or, in the ST's case, its onboard ports,) but those didn't roll out until 1984-1985. Prior to that, most "computer music" was either using a few proprietary computer-to-synthesizer interfaces such as Roland's DCB or the DK Synergy's dedicated Kaypro software, or using onboard DACs or simple PSG-style tone generators as being discussed here. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Feb 24 00:33:14 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 07:33:14 +0100 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20170224063314.GP16529@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 11:45:44AM -0800, Glen Slick wrote: > On Feb 23, 2017 12:23 AM, "Pontus Pihlgren" wrote: > > > (I'm just hoping I'l get lucky and find one.. I have an 11/73 with > graphics, it would be nice to add sound to it) > > > What do you have for graphics? I have a DEC VSV11 board set and a Matrox > QC-640 board. I have a few. A loose untested VSV90, a VTV01 in an 11/34 (also no tested), a loose VCB02, a Matrox boardset which I know little about, and VSV11 which should work. /P From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Feb 24 07:55:06 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 08:55:06 -0500 Subject: DEC VSV11 - was Re: story of Mel In-Reply-To: References: <20170222184910.7B04318C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <04E1538D-4B24-469E-9CD6-91200AA523AF@comcast.net> <83548395-2999-4b58-b044-82101bd6ccc0@verizon.net> <20170223082348.GN16529@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 2017-02-23 2:45 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Feb 23, 2017 12:23 AM, "Pontus Pihlgren" wrote: > > > (I'm just hoping I'l get lucky and find one.. I have an 11/73 with > graphics, it would be nice to add sound to it) > > > What do you have for graphics? I have a DEC VSV11 board set and a Matrox > QC-640 board. > For anyone interested - There are three VSV11's on ebay at the moment. --Toby (not affiliated) From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Feb 25 01:46:38 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 00:46:38 -0700 Subject: VIC 20 in film Message-ID: Anyone else notice it in _John Wick Chapter Two_? I don't recall having ever seen a VIC 20 in a mainstream film before. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Feb 25 04:28:28 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 23:28:28 +1300 Subject: VIC 20 in film In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've never seen one in a film but one did appear in the New Zealand comedy "Flight of the Conchords" running New Zealand Government Internet 1.1 (: https://youtu.be/M-vNLCiJlng Terry (Tez) On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 8:46 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Anyone else notice it in _John Wick Chapter Two_? I don't recall having > ever seen a VIC 20 in a mainstream film before. > From ats at offog.org Sat Feb 25 07:06:17 2017 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:06:17 +0000 Subject: VIC 20 in film In-Reply-To: (Eric Smith's message of "Sat, 25 Feb 2017 00:46:38 -0700") References: Message-ID: Eric Smith writes: > Anyone else notice it in _John Wick Chapter Two_? I don't recall > having ever seen a VIC 20 in a mainstream film before. That film's not on "Starring The Computer"'s list yet -- submit it! http://starringthecomputer.com/computer.html?c=65 -- Adam Sampson From mark at matlockfamily.com Sat Feb 25 06:20:48 2017 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 06:20:48 -0600 Subject: story of Mel Message-ID: > From: Glen Slick > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: story of Mel > > On Feb 23, 2017 12:23 AM, "Pontus Pihlgren" wrote: > > > (I'm just hoping I'l get lucky and find one.. I have an 11/73 with > graphics, it would be nice to add sound to it) > > > What do you have for graphics? I have a DEC VSV11 board set and a Matrox > QC-640 board. Glen, (or any one else) Would you happen to have any documentation for that Matrox QC-640 board? I have one also that came with some BA23 I purchased, but I have nothing on it. Thanks, Mark From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Feb 25 08:51:24 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 06:51:24 -0800 Subject: story of Mel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 4:20 AM, Mark Matlock wrote: > > Glen, (or any one else) > Would you happen to have any documentation for that Matrox QC-640 board? > > I have one also that came with some BA23 I purchased, but I have nothing on it. > Without pulling the board out to double check how it is labeled it must actually be a QG-640, not a QC-640. I was going from memory. This manual matches the board I have. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/matrox/265-MU-00_QG-640_User_Manual_Mar91.pdf From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 25 17:15:52 2017 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 23:15:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 2647F cable References: <162120716.1042295.1488064552944.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <162120716.1042295.1488064552944@mail.yahoo.com> Hi! I just picked up an HP 2467F on Ebay (best offer accepted), and received it yesterday. ?It seems to be in great condition, with all the original materials in the original packing. ?Unfortunately, the disk and cable were not included. ?I did manage to find the disk drive in a separate auction by the same seller, but have not yet received it. Would anyone here be interested in the original box and packing materials? ?Perhaps someone with a 264x series terminal who values having a box? ?It's all in great condition, and came packed in a slightly bigger box, so I could ship it out undamaged, if there are any takers. This is a neat little 8085 computer disguised as a terminal. ?It was introduced in 1978, according to the hpmuseum, but this one has a warranty card suggesting a 1982 manufacture date. ?This appears to have been sold in Germany by a German distributor. I'm looking for a cable. ?The manuals seem to have the information required to make one, but would rather locate an original if possile. ?If anyone has a spare, I'd be interested. Also, the online documentation indicates that there is supposed to be a "BASIC/Autoplot/47" disk, but I only see an "Autoplot/47" disk among the included floppies. ?Is this likely to contain the BASIC as well, or am I missing a disk? ?I'd be interested in any software anyone may have for this machine. Thanks! Dave From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Feb 25 17:45:58 2017 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 18:45:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP 2647F cable In-Reply-To: <162120716.1042295.1488064552944@mail.yahoo.com> References: <162120716.1042295.1488064552944.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <162120716.1042295.1488064552944@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Feb 2017, Dave wrote: > Also, the online documentation indicates that there is supposed to be a > "BASIC/Autoplot/47" disk, but I only see an "Autoplot/47" disk among the > included floppies. Is this likely to contain the BASIC as well, or am I > missing a disk? I'd be interested in any software anyone may have for > this machine. The HP Museum site has a ZIP file available for download that has 3 disk images: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=306 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 25 18:40:42 2017 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2017 00:40:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 2647F cable In-Reply-To: <109881470.1040615.1488068503563@mail.yahoo.com> References: <162120716.1042295.1488064552944.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <162120716.1042295.1488064552944@mail.yahoo.com> <388218056.1023535.1488067996471@mail.yahoo.com> <109881470.1040615.1488068503563@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <252154439.1018532.1488069642838@mail.yahoo.com> > I wonder if this kryoflux supports this format. . . ?I got a kryoflux from another hobbyist but never tried it out. Obviously, Teledisk supports it, if it's in the HPmuseum archive. ? I suppose Imagedisk does as well. Dave From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Feb 25 20:19:25 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 21:19:25 -0500 Subject: HP 2647F cable Message-ID: <18f12bd.4b56db32.45e3952d@aol.com> I have a 2647 or a 2628.. ( has cassettes in it) I thought there was basic for it... neat.. how do we generate the tape to load it? Bet the rollers in the drive are toast? details? thanks ed# In a message dated 2/25/2017 4:46:10 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us writes: On Sat, 25 Feb 2017, Dave wrote: > Also, the online documentation indicates that there is supposed to be a > "BASIC/Autoplot/47" disk, but I only see an "Autoplot/47" disk among the > included floppies. Is this likely to contain the BASIC as well, or am I > missing a disk? I'd be interested in any software anyone may have for > this machine. The HP Museum site has a ZIP file available for download that has 3 disk images: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=306 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Feb 25 20:22:06 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 21:22:06 -0500 Subject: VIA SMECC __ PART 1 RTTY Journal A Gift to all of us From Bill Henry Message-ID: <18f1df0.7dc3327a.45e395cd@aol.com> LINKS FOR DOWNLOADING THE RTTY JOURNAL AND FOLLOW ON PUBLICATIONS FEEL FREE TO DISTRIBUTE THIS RTTY JOURNAL ZIP FILES FROM THIS SECTION ONLY Thanks to Bill Henry of HAL for putting these into the public domain for all to enjoy. These are ZIP files which will break down to individual issues. They are presented in groups like this to enable easier and quicker downloading. Dates are in filename! These files below represent all of the RTTY Journal that were collected into a set CD-ROMs by Bill Henry K9GWT the owner and most recent publisher and Wayne Matlock, K7WM (SK). These journals represent 50 years or RTTY history in the Amateur Radio Field and along with the ARTS journals (an east coast publication) at SMECC represent a truly fantastic study of Amateur RTTY. The RTTY Journal was first published by the Southern California Radio Teletype Society as the RTTY Bulletin in January 1953. Over the years, the name has changed to RTTY Journal, RTTY Digital Journal and The New RTTY Journal. Past editors included Dusty Dunn (W8CQ), Don and Dee Krumpton, Dale Sinner W6IWO, Jim Mortensen N2HOS (SK) and Bill Henry. Thanks to Chen K7AY and Jay WS7I for distributing these. You will want to pull all of these down and expand them on your hard drive - then, you have the entire publication run as it evolved!. Enjoy! I am spending hours reading these! Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC FEEL FREE TO DISTRIBUTE THIS RTTY JOURNAL ZIP FILES FROM THIS SECTION ONLY _www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1953-1962.zip_ (http://www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1953-1962.zip) -FEEL FREE TO DISTRIBUTE THIS RTTY JOURNAL ZIP FILE _www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1963-1972.zip_ (http://www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1963-1972.zip) -FEEL FREE TO DISTRIBUTE THIS RTTY JOURNAL ZIP FILE _www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1973-1977.zip_ (http://www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1973-1977.zip) -FEEL FREE TO DISTRIBUTE THIS RTTY JOURNAL ZIP FILE _www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1978-1982.zip_ (http://www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1978-1982.zip) -FEEL FREE TO DISTRIBUTE THIS RTTY JOURNAL ZIP FILE _www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1983-1987.zip_ (http://www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1983-1987.zip) -FEEL FREE TO DISTRIBUTE THIS RTTY JOURNAL ZIP FILE _www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1988-1991.zip_ (http://www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1988-1991.zip) -FEEL FREE TO DISTRIBUTE THIS RTTY JOURNAL ZIP FILE _www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1992-1994.zip_ (http://www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1992-1994.zip) -FEEL FREE TO DISTRIBUTE THIS RTTY JOURNAL ZIP FILE _www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1998-2003.zip_ (http://www.smecc.org/media/rttyjournalzip/1998-2003.zip) -FEEL FREE TO DISTRIBUTE THIS RTTY JOURNAL ZIP FILE From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Sat Feb 25 20:24:23 2017 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 20:24:23 -0600 Subject: LGP-30 Video Update Message-ID: Some promising news on getting the LGP-30 up and running. With all systems stable, I tightened the head spacing on the three timing track heads (using brass 0.001" feeler gauges though I may have to go closer). This has resolved 'hanging' when hitting Start; it actually appears to execute for a cycle before toggling back to Stop for each press of the Start key. Of course without being able to see what's happening, it's likely just 'executing' garbage, but it's a solid first step. In Manual mode, keystrokes from the Flexowriter now trigger a Stop/Compute toggle for each key entered and status neons on the flip-flop cards are registering unique bit patterns as each comes in. I put the scope on the (rebuilt) clock generator card and we have good 'T' and 'T-bar' signals propagating, but still haven't licked the 'digital display' issue. After further probing, the display began to stabilize and the single line expanded into the proper 3 for Counter, Instruction and Accumulator, and eventually a bit pattern emerged for the Instruction. No signs of data yet for Counter nor Accumulator, and there is an extremely pronounced 'throbbing' and visible refreshing. Here's a video: https://youtu.be/Nhya46V-l70 System timing looks spot on (top trace), but I also see some 'throbbing' when putting my scope on any of the three timing heads which seems a little strange to me (example on lower trace). Here's a quick vid: https://youtu.be/JjRKDWVUyjA One thought is that the timing and short register heads are still too far off the drum surface for a solid signal, purely conjecture at this stage. -C From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Feb 25 20:34:53 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 20:34:53 -0600 Subject: VIC 20 in film In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170226023453.GA90051@gmail.com> On Sat, Feb 25, 2017, Terry Stewart wrote: > I've never seen one in a film but one did appear in the New Zealand comedy > "Flight of the Conchords" running New Zealand Government Internet 1.1 (: > > https://youtu.be/M-vNLCiJlng That was a great show. -- Eric Christopherson From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Feb 25 20:38:23 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 21:38:23 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Video Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 25, 2017 9:24 PM, "Cory Heisterkamp" wrote: > > Some promising news on getting the LGP-30 up and running. With all systems stable, I tightened the head spacing on the three timing track heads (using brass 0.001" feeler gauges though I may have to go closer). This has resolved 'hanging' when hitting Start; it actually appears to execute for a cycle before toggling back to Stop for each press of the Start key. Of course without being able to see what's happening, it's likely just 'executing' garbage, but it's a solid first step. > > In Manual mode, keystrokes from the Flexowriter now trigger a Stop/Compute toggle for each key entered and status neons on the flip-flop cards are registering unique bit patterns as each comes in. > > I put the scope on the (rebuilt) clock generator card and we have good 'T' and 'T-bar' signals propagating, but still haven't licked the 'digital display' issue. After further probing, the display began to stabilize and the single line expanded into the proper 3 for Counter, Instruction and Accumulator, and eventually a bit pattern emerged for the Instruction. No signs of data yet for Counter nor Accumulator, and there is an extremely pronounced 'throbbing' and visible refreshing. Here's a video: https://youtu.be/Nhya46V-l70 > > System timing looks spot on (top trace), but I also see some 'throbbing' when putting my scope on any of the three timing heads which seems a little strange to me (example on lower trace). Here's a quick vid: https://youtu.be/JjRKDWVUyjA > > One thought is that the timing and short register heads are still too far off the drum surface for a solid signal, purely conjecture at this stage. -C > Great news,,,bring it to life. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 25 20:50:13 2017 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2017 02:50:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 2647F cable In-Reply-To: <18f12bd.4b56db32.45e3952d@aol.com> References: <18f12bd.4b56db32.45e3952d@aol.com> Message-ID: <704433450.1075243.1488077413721@mail.yahoo.com> I have? a 2647 or a 2628.. ( has cassettes?in it) I thought there was basic? for it... neat.. how? do we generate the tape to load it?Bet the rollers in the? drive are toast? I believe the drives are the same as the 9825, 9845, and series 80 machines. ?HP9845.net has a page on repairing these drives: http://www.hp9845.net/9845/tutorials/tapedrives/ Dave From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Feb 25 20:59:11 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 21:59:11 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Video Update Message-ID: <18f83d6.6c33b9b2.45e39e7e@aol.com> GREAT TO SEE PROGRESS! Keep up the good work Cory! yes, heads have to be close to work.. at least that is the way it was with the VRC drums for storage on the GEPAC process control systyems Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 2/25/2017 7:24:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, coryheisterkamp at gmail.com writes: Some promising news on getting the LGP-30 up and running. With all systems stable, I tightened the head spacing on the three timing track heads (using brass 0.001" feeler gauges though I may have to go closer). This has resolved 'hanging' when hitting Start; it actually appears to execute for a cycle before toggling back to Stop for each press of the Start key. Of course without being able to see what's happening, it's likely just 'executing' garbage, but it's a solid first step. In Manual mode, keystrokes from the Flexowriter now trigger a Stop/Compute toggle for each key entered and status neons on the flip-flop cards are registering unique bit patterns as each comes in. I put the scope on the (rebuilt) clock generator card and we have good 'T' and 'T-bar' signals propagating, but still haven't licked the 'digital display' issue. After further probing, the display began to stabilize and the single line expanded into the proper 3 for Counter, Instruction and Accumulator, and eventually a bit pattern emerged for the Instruction. No signs of data yet for Counter nor Accumulator, and there is an extremely pronounced 'throbbing' and visible refreshing. Here's a video: https://youtu.be/Nhya46V-l70 System timing looks spot on (top trace), but I also see some 'throbbing' when putting my scope on any of the three timing heads which seems a little strange to me (example on lower trace). Here's a quick vid: https://youtu.be/JjRKDWVUyjA One thought is that the timing and short register heads are still too far off the drum surface for a solid signal, purely conjecture at this stage. -C From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sat Feb 25 21:36:33 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 22:36:33 -0500 Subject: Ohio Scientific 560Z Board: IT LIVES! Message-ID: <20170225223633.78a15cb0c957eca6c4ef0138@gmail.com> IT LIVES! I spent most of today hacking on the 560Z board. I got the 12-bit porthole going first, took a bit as the manual doesn't tell you that you need IC CC installed if you want to be able to write to the 4K exposed in the porthole. After that, I plugged in a Z80 and tried to get it running the test code in the manual. Turns out I had a dud Z80 :) With a good one installed the test code ran no-problem, as did a little hand written code to push data to the lamp register on the new memory board. I plugged in an IM-6100 and pretty much determined that at least the first one I tried is dead. I'll recheck the soldering on it later -- it's stuffed into a machine pin socket and soldered in, since half of the legs were rotted off by that corrosive black foam everyone loves so much. Anyway, the second IM-6100 works! And the 560Z board works! And the 12-bit RAM board works! I made a (low-res, poorly focused) video with our old digital point-n-shoot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYbGXHJST8U The IM-6100 is running a little loop that increments the accumulator and stores it to the lamp register. Storing of course clears the accumulator, but I have the lamp register mapped over RAM, so I just read the value back out of it. My first foray into PDP-8 code, it's certainly different, but it's still just machine code. Very happy that this seems to be coming fully together! Now if only I could find more IM-6100s...I'll test the remaining 3 tomorrow. Thanks, Jonathan From mark at matlockfamily.com Sat Feb 25 17:51:30 2017 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 17:51:30 -0600 Subject: story of Mel Message-ID: <48857FD9-4F6E-4937-AD8B-D1F71A9A4202@MatlockFamily.com> > Without pulling the board out to double check how it is labeled it > must actually be a QG-640, not a QC-640. I was going from memory. > > This manual matches the board I have. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/matrox/265-MU-00_QG-640_User_Manual_Mar91.pdf Glen, The documentation link is exactly what I needed. Thanks!! It describes my QC-640 board exactly. It would be nice to have some drivers for it, but the documentation provides info on the pin outs for the connectors which I definitely needed. Thanks again, Mark From pete at petelancashire.com Sat Feb 25 18:57:14 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 16:57:14 -0800 Subject: SW tapes found today Message-ID: https://goo.gl/photos/edJN2M7AMsFFRL928 Tek 4050 some duplicates Apollo Model unknown Motorola MVME332XT Unused w/Tektronix Label Don't know the condition of the elastomer band. -pete From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Feb 27 18:33:51 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 00:33:51 +0000 Subject: Test Message-ID: Ezwind? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Feb 27 18:35:05 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 18:35:05 -0600 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d2915a$82044dd0$860ce970$@classiccmp.org> Test received ;) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 6:34 PM To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Test Ezwind? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Feb 27 18:51:21 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 18:51:21 -0600 Subject: list issue Message-ID: <000301d2915c$c7704c50$5650e4f0$@classiccmp.org> So sorry for the temporary email outage on the list. We're moving datacenters and one of my folks moved several front end mail processors - not realizing that the classiccmp server which stayed behind was still using them. Through the magic of a vpn tunnel between front end mx hosts and the backend mailstores (classiccmp included), it seems to be back up. I'll talk to the guy tomorrow to discuss the actual movement of that vm. Yes, IP's will be changing for the list and all websites hosted therein. But DNS is "a thing", so should be mostly transparent. Depending on timing, I may go ahead and do some upgrades and recombine the lists - or may do that after the move. I'll try to do a better job of coordinating this.. Best, J From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 18:57:34 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 18:57:34 -0600 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <000001d2915a$82044dd0$860ce970$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d2915a$82044dd0$860ce970$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: ok On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Jay West wrote: > Test received ;) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 6:34 PM > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Test > > Ezwind? > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Feb 27 19:14:43 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 20:14:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wildly hopeful eBay seller Message-ID: <20170228011443.3B6A418C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Now, this person: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182469963119 really is ... incredibly over-optimistic. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 19:20:34 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 20:20:34 -0500 Subject: Wildly hopeful eBay seller In-Reply-To: <20170228011443.3B6A418C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170228011443.3B6A418C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I could believe $49.99 or something like that if a museum wanted it. On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Now, this person: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/182469963119 > > really is ... incredibly over-optimistic. > > Noel > From ben at bensinclair.com Mon Feb 27 19:41:56 2017 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 19:41:56 -0600 Subject: Sparcbook 3TX Hard Drive? Message-ID: This is probably a long shot, but does anyone have a Sparcbook 3TX hard drive? I know they're difficult to find. I have a 3TX in great condition, but no drive. (hopefully this isn't a repost, I tried this when the list was having issues and don't think it went through) -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Feb 27 20:02:09 2017 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 18:02:09 -0800 Subject: Wildly hopeful eBay seller In-Reply-To: <20170228011443.3B6A418C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170228011443.3B6A418C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <693535BE-22EE-4FB4-AF80-205459151757@eschatologist.net> Here I thought this would be about the newly listed Symbolics 3600 board: https://www.ebay.com/itm/152451344620 -- Chris Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 27, 2017, at 5:14 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Now, this person: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/182469963119 > > really is ... incredibly over-optimistic. > > Noel From ray at arachelian.com Mon Feb 27 20:05:11 2017 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 21:05:11 -0500 Subject: adb use on xenix 3.0? Message-ID: <28ba68c7-dca8-c83f-03fa-c785f2db4500@arachelian.com> I'm trying to help out Jason Perkins who wants to demo Multiplan on Xenix 3.0 for the Apple Lisa at the upcoming VCF. While the bits for it are on bitsavers, it requires a serial number and so far he's had zero no luck finding one. So I'm trying to use adb to step through the code and find where it checks for the serial number, etc. So I run adb ./brand and then set a breakpoint using :b on "." which is the start address for the binary, and then I do :r /usr/lib/mp/mp and it does stop before the 1st instruction is executed (or maybe right after), however, when I try :s to step to the next instruction it runs the rest of the program in its whole. I know there's also :e which should step but skip over any function calls. I've also tried :ss, and got the same results (whole program runs without stopping). ? and enter does disassemble the non-running binary. $r and $m show registers and the map. I'm actually not sure if I'm setting the breakpoint correctly as $b shows it, but there's also a "command" field next to the address, so if I do :bfoo, it shows address 0 and foo for the command. So what should "command" be? and how do I single step through the running code? Some more details of what I got so far for those with historical interest: The basic installation is untarring the multiplan disk, which writes to /usr/lib/mp and /once. In /once there's a script init.mp that runs brand -s {serial} /usr/lib/mp/inter, but if you enter the wrong serial number it removes all the files. brand seems to look for a string starting with SCOSN - there's 4 copies of the "SCOSN" string inside brand, not sure why. The /usr/lib/mp/inter binary has only one like this: SCOSNMFO9999990000. I suspect that brand replaces the stuff after SCOSN with whatever the properly encoded serial number is. There's some sort of simple ROT13-like encoding of the string stored in inter. Out of the box running "/usr/lib/mp/inter /usr/lib/mp/mp" produces output with a product number and a serial # of NUL-000000 - the "MFO" is decoded to NUL (basically substitutes A for Z, B for Y, 0 for 9, 1 for 8, etc.) and ofc it says invalid serial # and quits. The serial number is checked by both brand and inter, but maybe not the code in mp.cod (I touched a file called /usr/lib/mp/foo.cod and then it said /usr/lib/mp/foo.dat missing, so I touched that one too, and when I ran it, it said invalid serial number. Running inter by itself just prints a banner without saying invalid serial number.) I'm guessing the serial number is 3 letters a dash and 6 digits, but there's maybe 4 more digits that have to be entered, or those 4 extra digits are generated by brand, not sure. However, so far brand hasn't accepted any serial number tried. I suspect inter to be a Microsoft virtual machine that wants to load mp.cod and mp.dat which are the real code for multiplan. I read somewhere that early on MSFT was using VMs to do help them from having to port the same code to lots of targets. This way they could port the interpreter for the vm and run anywhere, though inter has string saying multiplan so perhaps there's some customizations to each copy of inter based on what it's supposed to run? brand seems to take two more options -m and -n (and -q which I suspect is "quiet" as the init.mp script uses it). Both -m and -n cause a core dump but first print "identifier string found at D in" This is an interesting bit of history that I'd like to reverse engineer if possible. brand hasn't been stripped so it's likely a bit easier to disassemble. inter however is stripped, so would be much harder to reverse engineer. But it would be very useful to be able to step through one instruction at a time to find where it's doing a checksum or whatever and try to figure out what the serial number looks like. Jason is trying to brute force it assuming it's SCO-###### by running brand in a loop, but so far no luck either. Thanks. From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Feb 27 20:09:48 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 20:09:48 -0600 Subject: Wildly hopeful eBay seller In-Reply-To: <693535BE-22EE-4FB4-AF80-205459151757@eschatologist.net> References: <20170228011443.3B6A418C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <693535BE-22EE-4FB4-AF80-205459151757@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <20170228020947.GA6032@lonesome.com> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 06:02:09PM -0800, Chris Hanson wrote: > Here I thought this would be about the newly listed Symbolics 3600 board: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/152451344620 zero sales from that user. *run*. mcl From other at oryx.us Mon Feb 27 20:10:14 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 20:10:14 -0600 Subject: Sparcbook 3TX Hard Drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Ben, Sorry I can not assist you directly. I believe that many people in your situation, and similar, are successfully using the SCSI2SD adapter Hope that there is something here that helps. Jerry On 02/27/17 07:41 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > This is probably a long shot, but does anyone have a Sparcbook 3TX hard > drive? I know they're difficult to find. > > I have a 3TX in great condition, but no drive. > > (hopefully this isn't a repost, I tried this when the list was having > issues and don't think it went through) > From lists at loomcom.com Mon Feb 27 21:33:41 2017 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 21:33:41 -0600 Subject: Still Looking For AT&T 3B2 Internals Docs Message-ID: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com> Hello everyone, It's been about a year since I last asked around, so I figure it's time for me to put out another call for help. My AT&T 3B2 emulator sits unfinished due to lack of internals documentation. If you or anyone you know might have access to internals documents -- schematics, timing diagrams, etc. -- please let me know. These docs are very hard to find, and may never have been released by AT&T. Maybe you know a former AT&T engineer who managed to squirrel some away? I have many resources already, so I'm NOT looking for user manuals, SVR3 source code, or the IO Bus specification. These are pretty easily available online, and they've given me their all. Many thanks in advance, -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 22:25:11 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 20:25:11 -0800 Subject: Wildly hopeful eBay seller In-Reply-To: References: <20170228011443.3B6A418C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I've been looking fruitlessly for boxes of fanfold paper-tape for long enough that that price *almost* seems reasonable. There isn't much left and they don't make it any longer. (It's still a ridiculous price.) - Josh On 2/27/17 5:20 PM, william degnan wrote: > I could believe $49.99 or something like that if a museum wanted it. > > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> Now, this person: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/182469963119 >> >> really is ... incredibly over-optimistic. >> >> Noel >> From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 22:32:33 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 20:32:33 -0800 Subject: DEC DW11 information? Message-ID: <2818965f-111f-c599-523b-20edeaf615c8@gmail.com> Hi all - Anyone have any technical information (manuals, schematics, etc.) for the DEC DW11 UNIBUS->QBus interface? I'm curious to know what it's capable of and what the requirements are, especially on the QBus side of things. What kind of backplane is required? I assume it doesn't support 22-bit QBus devices given the age of the interface (and the complexity required to do so), but does it handle 18-bit devices, or only 16? I haven't found much technical information on it at all. Anyone have any details to share? Thanks, Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 22:52:34 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 23:52:34 -0500 Subject: DEC DW11 information? In-Reply-To: <2818965f-111f-c599-523b-20edeaf615c8@gmail.com> References: <2818965f-111f-c599-523b-20edeaf615c8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 11:32 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all - > > Anyone have any technical information (manuals, schematics, etc.) for the > DEC DW11 UNIBUS->QBus interface? I'm curious to know what it's capable of > and what the requirements are, especially on the QBus side of things. What > kind of backplane is required? I assume it doesn't support 22-bit QBus > devices given the age of the interface (and the complexity required to do > so), but does it handle 18-bit devices, or only 16? I saw one in a PDP-11/34 at a Physics Lab at Ohio state in the early 1990s. It was in there so that they could use an IBV11 IEEE-488 interface with a Unibus machine. AFAIK, it's 18-bit not 16-bit. 22-bit Qbus wouldn't be directly controllable from a Unibus anyway (machines like the 11/44 that can address more than 256MB of memory have Unibus mapping registers that take care of RAM addressing, but the Unibus is still always 18-bit). The DW-11 came with a 4-slot hex Qbus backplane, a DDV11-CK, I'm fairly certain it was, that mounted directly in the BA11-K box, right next to a DD11-DK and a DD11-PK that were the Unibus slots for the CPU and memory. I've always wanted to see if it would work with a Qbus SCSI controller since Unibus SCSI controllers are far, far less common. -ethan From isking at uw.edu Mon Feb 27 23:06:09 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 21:06:09 -0800 Subject: Wildly hopeful eBay seller In-Reply-To: References: <20170228011443.3B6A418C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I've been looking fruitlessly for boxes of fanfold paper-tape for long > enough that that price *almost* seems reasonable. There isn't much left > and they don't make it any longer. > > (It's still a ridiculous price.) > > - Josh > > > It'll probably show up again as a regular auction when this guy realizes he's on e-crack. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 23:12:09 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 23:12:09 -0600 Subject: Displaywriters in Chicago In-Reply-To: <27e9684f-4b2a-825a-2e70-10efe522bef6@bitsavers.org> References: <27e9684f-4b2a-825a-2e70-10efe522bef6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 11:24 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Is there anyone out there that can save these? > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56313-IBM-Displaywriter-printer-(5215-or-5218)-needed > > I'm primarily interested in archiving the software. Did anyone win this and/or make a deal with the seller? The auction was ended early and I believe it had at least one bid when I first saw it. I'm in the area but wasn't relishing humping all that IBM out of an attic. But anything to save history, I guess... -j From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 00:02:32 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 06:02:32 +0000 Subject: DEC DW11 information? In-Reply-To: <2818965f-111f-c599-523b-20edeaf615c8@gmail.com> References: <2818965f-111f-c599-523b-20edeaf615c8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 4:32 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all - > > Anyone have any technical information (manuals, schematics, etc.) for the > DEC DW11 UNIBUS->QBus interface? I'm curious to know what it's capable of I am pretty sure I have the printset for it somewhere. I think the VS11 prints also include it (the VS11 is a VSV11 with said interface to allow it to be used on the Unibus). > and what the requirements are, especially on the QBus side of things. What > kind of backplane is required? I assume it doesn't support 22-bit QBus > devices given the age of the interface (and the complexity required to do > so), but does it handle 18-bit devices, or only 16? >From memory it handles 18 bit addressing (not 22, of course), interrupts and NPR (DMA). The Unibus side (quad card) goes in any SPC slot, you have to remove the NPG jumper. It links with a pair of 40 way ribbon cables to the Qbus board (dual height) which goes in the 'first' slot of a Qbus backplane, where the CPU board wound normally go. AFAIK there are no real restrictions on the Qbus backplane, I have used one to hang a MINC chassis off a Unibus processor. I seems to be transparent in operation. You just acccess Qbus devices at their normal addresses. -tony From kgriffit at mindspring.com Mon Feb 27 21:56:41 2017 From: kgriffit at mindspring.com ("Grif" w. keith griffith) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 19:56:41 -0800 Subject: after a long search, I found the Dr. Dobbs bound volumes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d3d44bb-ca50-0736-3eed-c9e9918be201@mindspring.com> Wow, I just found my bound volumes 1 thru 4. On 02/23/2017 07:24 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 9:37 AM, geneb wrote: > >> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017, Randy Dawson wrote: >> >> Located here: >>> >>> http://6502.org/documents/publications/dr_dobbs_journal/ >>> >>> Were there only 13 volumes produced? >> g. >> >> >> > I know 1989 copies are all marked volume 14. I don't have any newer than > that. > From aap at papnet.eu Tue Feb 28 00:59:33 2017 From: aap at papnet.eu (Angelo Papenhoff) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 07:59:33 +0100 Subject: MIPS I-IV instruction set standards Message-ID: <20170228065933.GA43098@indra.papnet.eu> I'm wondering where the MIPS I-IV standards that are referenced everywhere are defined. I was able to actually find what seems to be the IV standard [1] but found no such thing for I-III. I didn't even find any bibliographic references to them. Did they only exist as printed books and nobody bothered to scan them? Or are they under copyright? Would be nice to have them accessible somewhere. [1] http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/class/15740-f97/public/doc/mips-isa.pdf From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Tue Feb 28 04:15:00 2017 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 21:15:00 +1100 Subject: Displaywriters in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <27e9684f-4b2a-825a-2e70-10efe522bef6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > Did anyone win this and/or make a deal with the seller? I'm curious too, seemed like fairly complete systems and we now have most of the software that was released for these systems and nearly a complete Displaywriter emulator. I had one of my memory boards fail, so it is worth having an extra system unit for spares. From lars at nocrew.org Tue Feb 28 04:54:24 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:54:24 +0100 Subject: MIPS I-IV instruction set standards In-Reply-To: <20170228065933.GA43098@indra.papnet.eu> (Angelo Papenhoff via cctalk's message of "Tue, 28 Feb 2017 07:59:33 +0100") References: <20170228065933.GA43098@indra.papnet.eu> Message-ID: <86fuiyoaan.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Angelo Papenhoff wrote: > I'm wondering where the MIPS I-IV standards that are referenced > everywhere are defined. I was able to actually find what seems to be the > IV standard [1] but found no such thing for I-III. Anything you find, I'd like to add to https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/awesome-cpus/tree/master/MIPS I suppose you know about this? https://www.imgtec.com/mips/architectures/ From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 05:16:53 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 04:16:53 -0700 Subject: MIPS I-IV instruction set standards In-Reply-To: <20170228065933.GA43098@indra.papnet.eu> References: <20170228065933.GA43098@indra.papnet.eu> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 11:59 PM, Angelo Papenhoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm wondering where the MIPS I-IV standards that are referenced > everywhere are defined. I was able to actually find what seems to be the > IV standard [1] but found no such thing for I-III. I didn't even find > any bibliographic references to them. Did they only exist as printed > books and nobody bothered to scan them? Or are they under copyright? > AFAIK, there weren't any formal MIPS architecture standards published for the early versions of the architecture, though there may have been such things internally to MIPS. That was not an uncommon practice for computer architectures; for instance, the formal DEC VAX architecture standard was a DEC confidential document not available to customers, even though there was plenty of customer documentation covering most aspects of the architecture. It might be worth asking on comp.arch. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue Feb 28 05:42:36 2017 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (LJW cctech) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 12:42:36 +0100 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI Message-ID: Via Mike Ross, but contact Greg with any questions! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Greg Bebermeyer" Date: Feb 27, 2017 4:44 AM Subject: IBM System/32 - web response To: Cc: Hi Mike, Maybe this is no longer relevant since I can't tell from the web page how recent the post is... I am selling my house and in the back of the garage is a complete System/32 that was working when I stuck it there and covered it. Much other stuff is in front of it so I haven't seen it in a while. It's free for the taking to anyone willing to come to East Lansing, Michigan and pick it up. If you aren't interested then it'll just go to the scrappers because I need to get the place ready for inspection. The junk haulers should uncover it in a day or two at which point I could take pictures. I also have a PDP-11/60, if you know of anyone interested. Same deal - free, come pick it up. The 11/60 main box has been stored in a dry basement along with two RL01 disk drives (in free standing cabinets, not rack mounted) along with a box of flat interconnect cables. It was used in a cardiac unit to run heart monitors and has an extra card cage full of interface cards. Also there's 3 PDP-11/34s in a rack in the garage as well. All this stuff has to go in about a week to 10 days, unless arrangements/promises are made and kept. If you're interested in any of this stuff, or could refer me to someone who might be, I would love for this stuff to go to a good home. Yup, I started with FORTRAN and 80-column punch cards. Thanks. My best, -Greg Bebermeyer bebergee at gmail.com greg.bebermeyer at gmail.com -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From mattiase at acm.org Tue Feb 28 09:21:41 2017 From: mattiase at acm.org (=?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?=) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 16:21:41 +0100 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: References: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> <45366AF4-83CA-48D5-A9B8-1E1AC3E9976A@comcast.net> <586981FA.9060800@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <821A80CE-B257-4DE6-A245-D7C81A26FA16@acm.org> Some time ago I solicited help investigating how DEC VT terminals handle line wrapping, mainly for the purpose of accurate emulation. Having received assistance from very kind people -- many thanks! -- some of the findings have now been summarised at https://github.com/mattiase/wraptest, in case it would be of help to anyone else. Data for VT100, VT220 and VT510 have been collected, as well as several emulators (https://github.com/mattiase/wraptest/blob/master/results.txt). If anyone has access to other working terminals, VT3xx/VT4xx in particular, I'd be most grateful if you would take a few minutes to run the test program. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Feb 28 09:55:30 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 09:55:30 -0600 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance Message-ID: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Analog, which is my nemesis, curses me again. I have a cute idea for a cassette port project for the Tandy line of computers (the ones with the cassette port). I have a Coco 3 on the bench, so I scoped the output line while doing 'csave "jim"'. The signal looks to be just under 1V PtP (0-1V on the scope), and rests at about .3V when not sending data. I have tried 6 different ways to boost the signal to 5V digital, to no avail, and so I ask humbly if someone with analog knowledge might be able to assist. I first tried to boost the signal with a transistor (with variations using a N channel FET as well). Arguably, that was foolhardy, and it did not work. My second attempt was based on this link that was shared with me: http://labs.rakettitiede.com/12kbps-simple-audio-data-transfer-for-avr/ The output from the Coco3 does not appear to be "loud" enough to work with this circuit. So, I finally decided a comparator solution would be required. First, I tried a design using a 741 op-amp, which failed miserably, but probably would have worked, but I tried to merge the design from the Coco1, and replace the LM339 in the Coco 1 design with the 741, and I feel I did not merge the designs well :-) I then tried using the comparator in an Atmel AVR, and had minimal success. By biasing one input via a variable resistor to around .8V, I was able to get a digital stream, but it did not look like the data stream of the cassette format. I then pried an LM339 out of my Coco1 and replicated the circuit int the Coco 1, as noted in the tech manual: Color Computer Technical Reference Manual (Tandy).pdf I was shocked that I had no success with that design at all. I assumed (wrongly, it appears) that the Coco cassette input circuit would read the output of it's output circuit. Beyond the possibility that my components are defective or I wired it up wrongly, I can only theorize that Tandy assumed that all tape recorders would AGC the output and then feed a 2V PtP signal back to the Coco (the Coco 1 circuit looks to bias the comparator at 1.05V (not sure about the feedback resistor's impact)) I can fiddle around with the AVR solution, which might work if I can smooth out the spikes and bias the comparator right, but it just bothers me that the Coco 1 circuit does not work, as I assumed I would at least have success by copying a working design. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 09:59:21 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 12:59:21 -0300 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Message-ID: 74hc(or ls)14 Enviado do meu Tele-Movel On Feb 28, 2017 12:55 PM, "Jim Brain via cctalk" wrote: > Analog, which is my nemesis, curses me again. > > I have a cute idea for a cassette port project for the Tandy line of > computers (the ones with the cassette port). I have a Coco 3 on the bench, > so I scoped the output line while doing 'csave "jim"'. The signal looks to > be just under 1V PtP (0-1V on the scope), and rests at about .3V when not > sending data. > > I have tried 6 different ways to boost the signal to 5V digital, to no > avail, and so I ask humbly if someone with analog knowledge might be able > to assist. > > I first tried to boost the signal with a transistor (with variations using > a N channel FET as well). Arguably, that was foolhardy, and it did not work. > > My second attempt was based on this link that was shared with me: > > http://labs.rakettitiede.com/12kbps-simple-audio-data-transfer-for-avr/ > > The output from the Coco3 does not appear to be "loud" enough to work with > this circuit. > > So, I finally decided a comparator solution would be required. > > First, I tried a design using a 741 op-amp, which failed miserably, but > probably would have worked, but I tried to merge the design from the Coco1, > and replace the LM339 in the Coco 1 design with the 741, and I feel I did > not merge the designs well :-) > > I then tried using the comparator in an Atmel AVR, and had minimal > success. By biasing one input via a variable resistor to around .8V, I was > able to get a digital stream, but it did not look like the data stream of > the cassette format. > > I then pried an LM339 out of my Coco1 and replicated the circuit int the > Coco 1, as noted in the tech manual: > Color Computer Technical Reference Manual (Tandy).pdf < > http://www.colorcomputerarchive.com/coco/Documents/Manuals/ > Hardware/Color%20Computer%20Technical%20Reference% > 20Manual%20%28Tandy%29.pdf> > > I was shocked that I had no success with that design at all. I assumed > (wrongly, it appears) that the Coco cassette input circuit would read the > output of it's output circuit. Beyond the possibility that my components > are defective or I wired it up wrongly, I can only theorize that Tandy > assumed that all tape recorders would AGC the output and then feed a 2V PtP > signal back to the Coco (the Coco 1 circuit looks to bias the comparator at > 1.05V (not sure about the feedback resistor's impact)) > > I can fiddle around with the AVR solution, which might work if I can > smooth out the spikes and bias the comparator right, but it just bothers me > that the Coco 1 circuit does not work, as I assumed I would at least have > success by copying a working design. > > Jim > > > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Feb 28 10:00:32 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 08:00:32 -0800 Subject: MIPS I-IV instruction set standards In-Reply-To: References: <20170228065933.GA43098@indra.papnet.eu> Message-ID: <6413705E-5F18-4622-803F-D1C38DCEB357@shiresoft.com> Are you aware of ?See MIPS Run? by Sweetman? That?s what I always used as a reference for the early MIPS stuff. TTFN - Guy > On Feb 28, 2017, at 3:16 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 11:59 PM, Angelo Papenhoff via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I'm wondering where the MIPS I-IV standards that are referenced >> everywhere are defined. I was able to actually find what seems to be the >> IV standard [1] but found no such thing for I-III. I didn't even find >> any bibliographic references to them. Did they only exist as printed >> books and nobody bothered to scan them? Or are they under copyright? >> > > AFAIK, there weren't any formal MIPS architecture standards published for > the early versions of the architecture, though there may have been such > things internally to MIPS. That was not an uncommon practice for computer > architectures; for instance, the formal DEC VAX architecture standard was a > DEC confidential document not available to customers, even though there was > plenty of customer documentation covering most aspects of the architecture. > > It might be worth asking on comp.arch. From ben at bensinclair.com Tue Feb 28 10:07:19 2017 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 10:07:19 -0600 Subject: Sparcbook 3TX Hard Drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jerry, thanks for the info. I do have a some SCSI2SD adapters, though I would still have the problem with the weird internal connector and lack of a drive caddy to hold anything. I mean, I can't use a Sparcbook at the coffee shop with an external drive... That would be embarrassing! On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 8:10 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Hello Ben, > > Sorry I can not assist you directly. > > I believe that many people in your situation, and similar, are > successfully using the SCSI2SD adapter > > > > Hope that there is something here that helps. > > Jerry > > > > > On 02/27/17 07:41 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > >> This is probably a long shot, but does anyone have a Sparcbook 3TX hard >> drive? I know they're difficult to find. >> >> I have a 3TX in great condition, but no drive. >> >> (hopefully this isn't a repost, I tried this when the list was having >> issues and don't think it went through) >> >> -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 11:09:21 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 13:09:21 -0400 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <10b51ca1-ce73-26fa-9a8f-6b9ff5ca36b5@gmail.com> 74LS of 74HC gates are not going to work, the signal level is only 1V the threshold for 74LS is 2V and for 74HC it is 3.7V. I would probably use something like a compatator or an opamp but I don't have a circuit handy to use, but tehy should be easy to find. Paul. On 2017-02-28 11:59 AM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: > 74hc(or ls)14 > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > > On Feb 28, 2017 12:55 PM, "Jim Brain via cctalk" > wrote: > >> Analog, which is my nemesis, curses me again. >> >> I have a cute idea for a cassette port project for the Tandy line of >> computers (the ones with the cassette port). I have a Coco 3 on the bench, >> so I scoped the output line while doing 'csave "jim"'. The signal looks to >> be just under 1V PtP (0-1V on the scope), and rests at about .3V when not >> sending data. >> >> I have tried 6 different ways to boost the signal to 5V digital, to no >> avail, and so I ask humbly if someone with analog knowledge might be able >> to assist. >> >> I first tried to boost the signal with a transistor (with variations using >> a N channel FET as well). Arguably, that was foolhardy, and it did not work. >> >> My second attempt was based on this link that was shared with me: >> >> http://labs.rakettitiede.com/12kbps-simple-audio-data-transfer-for-avr/ >> >> The output from the Coco3 does not appear to be "loud" enough to work with >> this circuit. >> >> So, I finally decided a comparator solution would be required. >> >> First, I tried a design using a 741 op-amp, which failed miserably, but >> probably would have worked, but I tried to merge the design from the Coco1, >> and replace the LM339 in the Coco 1 design with the 741, and I feel I did >> not merge the designs well :-) >> >> I then tried using the comparator in an Atmel AVR, and had minimal >> success. By biasing one input via a variable resistor to around .8V, I was >> able to get a digital stream, but it did not look like the data stream of >> the cassette format. >> >> I then pried an LM339 out of my Coco1 and replicated the circuit int the >> Coco 1, as noted in the tech manual: >> Color Computer Technical Reference Manual (Tandy).pdf < >> http://www.colorcomputerarchive.com/coco/Documents/Manuals/ >> Hardware/Color%20Computer%20Technical%20Reference% >> 20Manual%20%28Tandy%29.pdf> >> >> I was shocked that I had no success with that design at all. I assumed >> (wrongly, it appears) that the Coco cassette input circuit would read the >> output of it's output circuit. Beyond the possibility that my components >> are defective or I wired it up wrongly, I can only theorize that Tandy >> assumed that all tape recorders would AGC the output and then feed a 2V PtP >> signal back to the Coco (the Coco 1 circuit looks to bias the comparator at >> 1.05V (not sure about the feedback resistor's impact)) >> >> I can fiddle around with the AVR solution, which might work if I can >> smooth out the spikes and bias the comparator right, but it just bothers me >> that the Coco 1 circuit does not work, as I assumed I would at least have >> success by copying a working design. >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> -- >> Jim Brain >> brain at jbrain.com >> www.jbrain.com >> >> From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Feb 28 11:12:14 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 17:12:14 +0000 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Feb 28, 2017, at 9:55 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Analog, which is my nemesis, curses me again. > > I have a cute idea for a cassette port project for the Tandy line of computers (the ones with the cassette port). I have a Coco 3 on the bench, so I scoped the output line while doing 'csave "jim"'. The signal looks to be just under 1V PtP (0-1V on the scope), and rests at about .3V when not sending data. > > I have tried 6 different ways to boost the signal to 5V digital, to no avail, and so I ask humbly if someone with analog knowledge might be able to assist. Warning, I am not an electrical engineer at all, only opinionated. What about: (analog out) -> A/D conversion -> tight software loop -> D/A conversion -> (analog in) ? Use a dedicated (Beaglebone? Raspberry Pi?) system in the middle, and o-scope the analogs to make sure it?s clean enough. The dedicated system should be able to 5V (or whatever you want) on the output, and I would think be fast enough to generate a reasonable sine-wave coming out if it only has to be audio frequencies. Once you have it working that way (and the software loop should allow you to tune it at will), you could build a simple dedicated circuit to multiply the same way the software did. This is killing a mosquito with a sledgehammer, I know. With any luck, one of the regulars who *is* an EE will chime in before you read this with the correct answer, in which case disregard. > I first tried to boost the signal with a transistor (with variations using a N channel FET as well). Arguably, that was foolhardy, and it did not work. Can a plain transistor do both + - ways on voltage? > My second attempt was based on this link that was shared with me: > > http://labs.rakettitiede.com/12kbps-simple-audio-data-transfer-for-avr/ > > The output from the Coco3 does not appear to be "loud" enough to work with this circuit. Even if it did, this looks like it implies all square waves. I think CoCo is designed to work with modulated sine-waves, and there could be some frequency components of the square waves (3x frequency, etc) that are causing problems somewhere. I don?t know that an AVR can run fast enough to do the sine-waves. I would guess you need to sample and digitize at least 10 times faster than the carrier (so maybe 100kHz?) and same for the output. > So, I finally decided a comparator solution would be required. Still square-wave? I could be on the wrong track here completely, but I?m thinking you want sinewaves. > First, I tried a design using a 741 op-amp, which failed miserably, but probably would have worked, but I tried to merge the design from the Coco1, and replace the LM339 in the Coco 1 design with the 741, and I feel I did not merge the designs well :-) > > I then tried using the comparator in an Atmel AVR, and had minimal success. By biasing one input via a variable resistor to around .8V, I was able to get a digital stream, but it did not look like the data stream of the cassette format. > > I then pried an LM339 out of my Coco1 and replicated the circuit int the Coco 1, as noted in the tech manual: > Color Computer Technical Reference Manual (Tandy).pdf > > I was shocked that I had no success with that design at all. I assumed (wrongly, it appears) that the Coco cassette input circuit would read the output of it's output circuit. Beyond the possibility that my components are defective or I wired it up wrongly, I can only theorize that Tandy assumed that all tape recorders would AGC the output and then feed a 2V PtP signal back to the Coco (the Coco 1 circuit looks to bias the comparator at 1.05V (not sure about the feedback resistor's impact)) > > I can fiddle around with the AVR solution, which might work if I can smooth out the spikes and bias the comparator right, but it just bothers me that the Coco 1 circuit does not work, as I assumed I would at least have success by copying a working design. > > Jim > > > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com - Mark > From lists at loomcom.com Tue Feb 28 11:42:07 2017 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:42:07 -0600 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20170228174207.GA19333@loomcom.com> * On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 09:55:30AM -0600, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Analog, which is my nemesis, curses me again. > > I have a cute idea for a cassette port project for the Tandy line of > computers (the ones with the cassette port). I have a Coco 3 on the bench, > so I scoped the output line while doing 'csave "jim"'. The signal looks to > be just under 1V PtP (0-1V on the scope), and rests at about .3V when not > sending data. > > I have tried 6 different ways to boost the signal to 5V digital, to no > avail, and so I ask humbly if someone with analog knowledge might be able to > assist. Hi Jim, When I was building a cassette circuit for my homebrew 6502 computer, I essentially stole the Synertek SYM-1 circuit wholesale. See: http://www.loomcom.com/blog/2013/01/04/retrochallenge-update-comparator-vs-zero-crossing-detector/ http://www.loomcom.com/blog/2013/01/05/comparator-success/ Synertek used an LM311 (an LM358 would work just fine) to build a comparator circuit. I _think_ you could use this exact circuit to take the analog output from the CoCo and turn it into a 5V sqauare wave. -Seth From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 11:43:35 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 17:43:35 +0000 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > On Feb 28, 2017, at 9:55 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > >> Analog, which is my nemesis, curses me again. I fail to see how anyone can be a good digital designer and not understand analogue electronics. >> >> I have a cute idea for a cassette port project for the Tandy line of computers >> (the ones with the cassette port). I have a Coco 3 on the bench, so I scoped >> the output line while doing 'csave "jim"'. The signal looks to be just under 1V >> PtP (0-1V on the scope), and rests at about .3V when not sending data. That sounds about right. IIRC the CoCo 3 uses a custom chip that contains a 6 bit DAC for this. Older machines just use a couple of TTL output port lines and a few resistors. The CoCo3 service manual suggests the output is 1V peak-to-peak >> >> I have tried 6 different ways to boost the signal to 5V digital, to no avail, and so >> I ask humbly if someone with analog knowledge might be able to assist. > > Warning, I am not an electrical engineer at all, only opinionated. > > What about: > > (analog out) -> A/D conversion -> tight software loop -> D/A conversion -> (analog in) ? Oh for $deity's sake. Why does everyone now insist on using a million components when a dozen will do? I stick to classic computers to get away from this. In any case it won't help that much. You should have some analgue 'signal conditioning' circuitry before the ADC (to get the input signal into the right voltage range for the ADC), ditto after the DAC. Otherwise you are wasting the performance of said converters. To get back to the problem. What do you _actually_ want the output to become? An analogue signal or a digital one? An op-amp will boost the signal. Look at the LM324 (a very cheap and common part, I have chosen it because the input voltage range goes down to 0 so you can run it off a single 5V supply). You could use it as a *5 amplifier by adding 2 or 3 resistors. If you want a digital signal then look at a comparator chip like the LM339. This compares the voltages on the 2 inputs, the output changes state as they pass each other (if you see what I mean). So you cassout signal to one input, a stable voltage of, say 0.5V on the other. There are couple of gotchas with this chip. The first is that it has open collector outputs, so you need a pullup resistor. The second is that it tends to oscillate at switchover. You can add hysteresis with a couple of resistors to prevent this. Where do you get the 0.5V reference from? Well, if your 5V supply is stable you can use that, divided down with a couple of resistors. Say 9.1k and 1k in series across the supply, comparator input to the junction. Or perhaps 0.7V from a forward biased silicon diode (diode cathode to ground, anode to +5V via a 4k7 or so resistor, take the 0.7V from the diode anode). Do you have 'The Art of Electronics'? If not buy it. Yes, it's expensive But it explains all this and more. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Feb 28 11:53:12 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 09:53:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Feb 2017, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk > wrote: >> On Feb 28, 2017, at 9:55 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Analog, which is my nemesis, curses me again. > > In my opinion, I fail to see how anyone can be a good digital designer > and not understand analog electronics. > Fixed that for ya. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 28 11:56:22 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 09:56:22 -0800 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <20170228174207.GA19333@loomcom.com> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <20170228174207.GA19333@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <3957362a-9787-d3dd-3596-6a6d75125c7d@sydex.com> On 02/28/2017 09:42 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > Synertek used an LM311 (an LM358 would work just fine) to build a > comparator circuit. I _think_ you could use this exact circuit to > take the analog output from the CoCo and turn it into a 5V sqauare > wave. I don't know a thing about the CoCo cassette format. I know that back in the day when things like the KC standard were the rage, a NE567 PLL was considered the cat's whiskers for data recovery. But again, I don't know what the CoCo cassette standard looks like. Also, you may want to look at the IBM 5150 (PC) cassette circuit. My recollection was that it was pretty robust, even if few made use of the facility. --Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 12:06:11 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 14:06:11 -0400 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <759673e2-ca7f-21cb-1400-0cc958b1d4a5@gmail.com> Now that I read your whole email I would like to ask what you plan to do with this boosted signal? I have never had a CoCo, but most cassette interfaces on these old computers pretty much all worked like a modem but you where recording the signal instead of sending it down a phone line. From what I read the CoCo uses 1200Hz for zero and 2400 Hz for one, what I was reading also went on to claim that it is a single cycle of the tone to represent a bit. If you intend to feed this into a computer converting the signal to a square wave would be ok as long as the software monitoring the port had a high enough sampling rate to be able to differentiate the width of the pulses, which should not be hard as one is twice as long as the other. A comparator would be the best way to produce a square wave representation, as they normally have a sharp threshold which you would want to adjust so that it switches over at about the 50% level of the input signal. If you have a dual channel scope you can compare the input signal to the output to see if that is what is happening. That might be hard to see on an analog scope, this is where a storage scope or a digital scope comes in handy because you can freeze the signal. Paul. On 2017-02-28 11:55 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Analog, which is my nemesis, curses me again. > > I have a cute idea for a cassette port project for the Tandy line of > computers (the ones with the cassette port). I have a Coco 3 on the > bench, so I scoped the output line while doing 'csave "jim"'. The > signal looks to be just under 1V PtP (0-1V on the scope), and rests at > about .3V when not sending data. > > I have tried 6 different ways to boost the signal to 5V digital, to no > avail, and so I ask humbly if someone with analog knowledge might be > able to assist. > > I first tried to boost the signal with a transistor (with variations > using a N channel FET as well). Arguably, that was foolhardy, and it > did not work. > > My second attempt was based on this link that was shared with me: > > http://labs.rakettitiede.com/12kbps-simple-audio-data-transfer-for-avr/ > > The output from the Coco3 does not appear to be "loud" enough to work > with this circuit. > > So, I finally decided a comparator solution would be required. > > First, I tried a design using a 741 op-amp, which failed miserably, > but probably would have worked, but I tried to merge the design from > the Coco1, and replace the LM339 in the Coco 1 design with the 741, > and I feel I did not merge the designs well :-) > > I then tried using the comparator in an Atmel AVR, and had minimal > success. By biasing one input via a variable resistor to around .8V, > I was able to get a digital stream, but it did not look like the data > stream of the cassette format. > > I then pried an LM339 out of my Coco1 and replicated the circuit int > the Coco 1, as noted in the tech manual: > Color Computer Technical Reference Manual (Tandy).pdf > > > > I was shocked that I had no success with that design at all. I > assumed (wrongly, it appears) that the Coco cassette input circuit > would read the output of it's output circuit. Beyond the possibility > that my components are defective or I wired it up wrongly, I can only > theorize that Tandy assumed that all tape recorders would AGC the > output and then feed a 2V PtP signal back to the Coco (the Coco 1 > circuit looks to bias the comparator at 1.05V (not sure about the > feedback resistor's impact)) > > I can fiddle around with the AVR solution, which might work if I can > smooth out the spikes and bias the comparator right, but it just > bothers me that the Coco 1 circuit does not work, as I assumed I would > at least have success by copying a working design. > > Jim > > > From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 12:08:11 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 18:08:11 +0000 Subject: Sparcbook 3TX Hard Drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All I can say is good luck. These are typically the limiting reagent to portable use. About half my sparcbooks have sleds, optimistically. Any tadpole series 2 (P-series, N40, AlphaBook, Sparcbook) sled will work. Sparcbook 3000 series caddies look identical but will not. On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 08:07 Ben Sinclair via cctalk wrote: > Hi Jerry, thanks for the info. I do have a some SCSI2SD adapters, though I > would still have the problem with the weird internal connector and lack of > a drive caddy to hold anything. > > I mean, I can't use a Sparcbook at the coffee shop with an external > drive... That would be embarrassing! > > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 8:10 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > > > Hello Ben, > > > > Sorry I can not assist you directly. > > > > I believe that many people in your situation, and similar, are > > successfully using the SCSI2SD adapter > > > > > > > > Hope that there is something here that helps. > > > > Jerry > > > > > > > > > > On 02/27/17 07:41 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > > >> This is probably a long shot, but does anyone have a Sparcbook 3TX hard > >> drive? I know they're difficult to find. > >> > >> I have a 3TX in great condition, but no drive. > >> > >> (hopefully this isn't a repost, I tried this when the list was having > >> issues and don't think it went through) > >> > >> > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From brain at jbrain.com Tue Feb 28 12:10:54 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 12:10:54 -0600 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <97cd6741-93c5-0266-0783-2be757b3b7ee@jbrain.com> On 2/28/2017 11:43 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > I fail to see how anyone can be a good digital designer and not > understand analogue > electronics. A couple points: * It is entirely possible I am not a good digital designer * I believe I have a basic understanding of analog, but I may not be competent. > To get back to the problem. What do you _actually_ want the output to become? An > analogue signal or a digital one? A digital one. The current goal is to feed the incoming data stream into an Atmel AVR running at 5V for parsing. The final goal is to do the same, but run the AVR at 3V on two coin cells. > > > If you want a digital signal then look at a comparator chip like the LM339. This > compares the voltages on the 2 inputs, the output changes state as they pass > each other (if you see what I mean). I understand the comparator function, though I will admit I have rarely used one. As I had some success on the AVR internal comparator circuit, I was able to play around with the bias and see how it affected the output. > So you cassout signal to one > input, a stable > voltage of, say 0.5V on the other. There are couple of gotchas with > this chip. The > first is that it has open collector outputs, so you need a pullup > resistor. The second > is that it tends to oscillate at switchover. You can add hysteresis > with a couple > of resistors to prevent this. I saw the notes in the datasheet about the oscillation, and the recommended way to overcome this. I also noticed the Coco 1 schematic includes this exact recommendation. I then wired up the exact circuit, using the LM339 from my Coco1, and the exact resistors and other passives as specified in the schematic. > > Where do you get the 0.5V reference from? Well, if your 5V supply is stable you > can use that, divided down with a couple of resistors. Say 9.1k and 1k in series > across the supply, comparator input to the junction. The Coco1 creates a 1.05V reference via the 15K and 56K resistors. After I noticed that the analog signal was centered around .5V, I quickly added another 15K resistor in parallel with the first one, to create a 56K/7.5K divider, which yields .591V as a reference. I am using a lab PSU, running at 5.00V, but the resulting circuit did not respond to changes in the Coco cassette data signal. I rechecked my circuit last night, but will recheck it tonight in case I made some stupid wiring mistake. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From earl at retrobits.com Tue Feb 28 09:47:56 2017 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 07:47:56 -0800 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm on the other side of the country or I'd be all over this. Someone please rescue this equipment. The thought of it going to the scrappers is, well, brutal. Aren't PDP-11/60s kind of a rare beast? - Earl From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 09:49:33 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 10:49:33 -0500 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 10:47 AM, Earl Evans via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm on the other side of the country or I'd be all over this. Someone > please rescue this equipment. The thought of it going to the scrappers is, > well, brutal. Aren't PDP-11/60s kind of a rare beast? > > - Earl > yes, yes they are. ug. b From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 09:54:16 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 10:54:16 -0500 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170228105416.f2362a093b69d0f4ad682e68@gmail.com> > > I'm on the other side of the country or I'd be all over this. Someone > > please rescue this equipment. The thought of it going to the scrappers is, > > well, brutal. Aren't PDP-11/60s kind of a rare beast? > > > > - Earl > > > > yes, yes they are. ug. I've contacted Greg, haven't heard back yet. I've got the means to pick them up. I'd probably be selling some of the hardware to recoup my travel costs, this list will be the first to hear about it if it works out. Thanks, Jonathan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 10:05:18 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:05:18 -0500 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 10:47 AM, Earl Evans via cctech wrote: > I'm on the other side of the country or I'd be all over this. I'm hours away myself... > Someone please rescue this equipment. The thought of it going to the scrappers is, well, brutal. Indeed. > Aren't PDP-11/60s kind of a rare beast? Quite rare. I've seen more 11/20s than 11/60s... (not that either number is large). -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Feb 28 10:21:45 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:21:45 -0500 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <3382ee52-1c34-16bb-1ecc-51e5ff57dfa4@verizon.net> On 2/28/17 10:55 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Analog, which is my nemesis, curses me again. > > I have a cute idea for a cassette port project for the Tandy line of > computers (the ones with the cassette port). I have a Coco 3 on the > bench, so I scoped the output line while doing 'csave "jim"'. The > signal looks to be just under 1V PtP (0-1V on the scope), and rests at > about .3V when not sending data. > > I have tried 6 different ways to boost the signal to 5V digital, to no > avail, and so I ask humbly if someone with analog knowledge might be > able to assist. > Why? > I first tried to boost the signal with a transistor (with variations > using a N channel FET as well). Arguably, that was foolhardy, and it > did not work. > > My second attempt was based on this link that was shared with me: > > http://labs.rakettitiede.com/12kbps-simple-audio-data-transfer-for-avr/ > > The output from the Coco3 does not appear to be "loud" enough to work > with this circuit. > > So, I finally decided a comparator solution would be required. > > First, I tried a design using a 741 op-amp, which failed miserably, > but probably would have worked, but I tried to merge the design from > the Coco1, and replace the LM339 in the Coco 1 design with the 741, > and I feel I did not merge the designs well :-) > > I then tried using the comparator in an Atmel AVR, and had minimal > success. By biasing one input via a variable resistor to around .8V, > I was able to get a digital stream, but it did not look like the data > stream of the cassette format. > > I then pried an LM339 out of my Coco1 and replicated the circuit int > the Coco 1, as noted in the tech manual: > Color Computer Technical Reference Manual (Tandy).pdf > > > The 339 is a very strange beast and can behave very badly. The 741 is slow but should work as an amplifier and as a comparator with minimal grief. Trying to use 339 or 714 circuits for each other will usually fail as they behave differently. > I was shocked that I had no success with that design at all. I > assumed (wrongly, it appears) that the Coco cassette input circuit > would read the output of it's output circuit. Beyond the possibility > that my components are defective or I wired it up wrongly, I can only > theorize that Tandy assumed that all tape recorders would AGC the > output and then feed a 2V PtP signal back to the Coco (the Coco 1 > circuit looks to bias the comparator at 1.05V (not sure about the > feedback resistor's impact)) The tape recorders used had no agc. They were simple portables and used the mic or line input and headphone output. The big thing is most of those circuits took advantage of the audio out of the recorder (low level and fairly low impedance) easily but larger they would overload (sometimes badly). The output was for a low level input and loading it usually lowers the output more (high impedance source). > > I can fiddle around with the AVR solution, which might work if I can > smooth out the spikes and bias the comparator right, but it just > bothers me that the Coco 1 circuit does not work, as I assumed I would > at least have success by copying a working design. > Why not just go inside and grab the signal at it source before any of the analog? it starts life at TTL waveforms (not 5V). Why are you trying to get to 5V in the first place? Allison > Jim > > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Feb 28 12:08:21 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 13:08:21 -0500 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <10b51ca1-ce73-26fa-9a8f-6b9ff5ca36b5@gmail.com> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <10b51ca1-ce73-26fa-9a8f-6b9ff5ca36b5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/28/17 12:09 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > 74LS of 74HC gates are not going to work, the signal level is only 1V > the threshold for 74LS is 2V and for 74HC it is 3.7V. I would > probably use something like a compatator or an opamp but I don't have > a circuit handy to use, but tehy should be easy to find. > Simply bias it in the middle of the range it works well then. All digital circuits start as analog designs. > Paul. > > On 2017-02-28 11:59 AM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: >> 74hc(or ls)14 >> >> Enviado do meu Tele-Movel >> >> On Feb 28, 2017 12:55 PM, "Jim Brain via cctalk" >> wrote: >> >>> Analog, which is my nemesis, curses me again. >>> >>> I have a cute idea for a cassette port project for the Tandy line of >>> computers (the ones with the cassette port). I have a Coco 3 on the >>> bench, >>> so I scoped the output line while doing 'csave "jim"'. The signal >>> looks to >>> be just under 1V PtP (0-1V on the scope), and rests at about .3V >>> when not >>> sending data. >>> >>> I have tried 6 different ways to boost the signal to 5V digital, to no >>> avail, and so I ask humbly if someone with analog knowledge might be >>> able >>> to assist. >>> >>> I first tried to boost the signal with a transistor (with variations >>> using >>> a N channel FET as well). Arguably, that was foolhardy, and it did >>> not work. >>> >>> My second attempt was based on this link that was shared with me: >>> >>> http://labs.rakettitiede.com/12kbps-simple-audio-data-transfer-for-avr/ >>> >>> The output from the Coco3 does not appear to be "loud" enough to >>> work with >>> this circuit. >>> >>> So, I finally decided a comparator solution would be required. >>> >>> First, I tried a design using a 741 op-amp, which failed miserably, but >>> probably would have worked, but I tried to merge the design from the >>> Coco1, >>> and replace the LM339 in the Coco 1 design with the 741, and I feel >>> I did >>> not merge the designs well :-) >>> >>> I then tried using the comparator in an Atmel AVR, and had minimal >>> success. By biasing one input via a variable resistor to around >>> .8V, I was >>> able to get a digital stream, but it did not look like the data >>> stream of >>> the cassette format. >>> >>> I then pried an LM339 out of my Coco1 and replicated the circuit int >>> the >>> Coco 1, as noted in the tech manual: >>> Color Computer Technical Reference Manual (Tandy).pdf < >>> http://www.colorcomputerarchive.com/coco/Documents/Manuals/ >>> Hardware/Color%20Computer%20Technical%20Reference% >>> 20Manual%20%28Tandy%29.pdf> >>> >>> I was shocked that I had no success with that design at all. I assumed >>> (wrongly, it appears) that the Coco cassette input circuit would >>> read the >>> output of it's output circuit. Beyond the possibility that my >>> components >>> are defective or I wired it up wrongly, I can only theorize that Tandy >>> assumed that all tape recorders would AGC the output and then feed a >>> 2V PtP >>> signal back to the Coco (the Coco 1 circuit looks to bias the >>> comparator at >>> 1.05V (not sure about the feedback resistor's impact)) >>> >>> I can fiddle around with the AVR solution, which might work if I can >>> smooth out the spikes and bias the comparator right, but it just >>> bothers me >>> that the Coco 1 circuit does not work, as I assumed I would at least >>> have >>> success by copying a working design. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Jim Brain >>> brain at jbrain.com >>> www.jbrain.com >>> >>> > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 12:17:57 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 13:17:57 -0500 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <3382ee52-1c34-16bb-1ecc-51e5ff57dfa4@verizon.net> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <3382ee52-1c34-16bb-1ecc-51e5ff57dfa4@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 11:21 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 2/28/17 10:55 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> I have a cute idea for a cassette port project for the Tandy line of >> computers (the ones with the cassette port).... >> > Why not just go inside and grab the signal at it source before any of the > analog? it starts life at TTL waveforms (not 5V). It sounds like he is contemplating a battery-powered tape drive emulator that plugs on the outside of the machine for users to use without opening their boxes. It would then be portable to other machines. Sounds like a great idea. > Why are you trying to get to 5V in the first place? Digital input to the AVR. -ethan From brain at jbrain.com Tue Feb 28 12:39:53 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 12:39:53 -0600 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <3957362a-9787-d3dd-3596-6a6d75125c7d@sydex.com> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <20170228174207.GA19333@loomcom.com> <3957362a-9787-d3dd-3596-6a6d75125c7d@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2/28/2017 11:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 02/28/2017 09:42 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > >> Synertek used an LM311 (an LM358 would work just fine) to build a >> comparator circuit. I _think_ you could use this exact circuit to >> take the analog output from the CoCo and turn it into a 5V sqauare >> wave. > > I don't know a thing about the CoCo cassette format. I know that back > in the day when things like the KC standard were the rage, a NE567 PLL > was considered the cat's whiskers for data recovery. But again, I don't > know what the CoCo cassette standard looks like. I admit my previous cassette format knowledge is Commodore based, where they basically shoved a 5V digital signal to the cassette deck, and expected the deck (which they produced) to handle it. Thus, interfacing with it is a digital exercise. But, I am not picky on circuitry, so I will take a look. Any pointers to a schematic? > > Also, you may want to look at the IBM 5150 (PC) cassette circuit. My > recollection was that it was pretty robust, even if few made use of the > facility. I will do so. Right now, a success, even if it's not a final state option, would be helpful. I had this great idea, but held off on it for a few weeks because I suspected I'd end up in this state... > > --Chuck -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Tue Feb 28 12:43:17 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 12:43:17 -0600 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <3382ee52-1c34-16bb-1ecc-51e5ff57dfa4@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 2/28/2017 12:17 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > It sounds like he is contemplating a battery-powered tape drive > emulator that plugs on the outside of the machine for users to use > without opening their boxes. It would then be portable to other > machines. Sounds like a great idea. This year's CocoFEST is open to all TRS-80 models, not just the Coco, and I noticed that many of the models have a similar cassette port connector (I think they have variations on the format), and so I thought of a neat project that might be of interest to all of the participants of the show. As you note, picking off 5V from inside, while entirely possible, is far from optimal, and a uC is the intended recipient. Besides, as Tony implies, I should know this stuff, but I have indeed managed to move along in my efforts for so many years without needing to use a comparator :-) -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Feb 28 12:14:52 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 13:14:52 -0500 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <3957362a-9787-d3dd-3596-6a6d75125c7d@sydex.com> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <20170228174207.GA19333@loomcom.com> <3957362a-9787-d3dd-3596-6a6d75125c7d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <04ef5481-89cf-87b5-2e3b-69f4e663812b@verizon.net> On 2/28/17 12:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 02/28/2017 09:42 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > >> Synertek used an LM311 (an LM358 would work just fine) to build a >> comparator circuit. I _think_ you could use this exact circuit to >> take the analog output from the CoCo and turn it into a 5V sqauare >> wave. > > I don't know a thing about the CoCo cassette format. I know that back > in the day when things like the KC standard were the rage, a NE567 PLL > was considered the cat's whiskers for data recovery. But again, I don't > know what the CoCo cassette standard looks like Only works for FM and frequency shift based formats. Everyone had their own favorite. I used to flip a bit doing biphase in software at 2400 baud. Minimal parts to none. Allison > Also, you may want to look at the IBM 5150 (PC) cassette circuit. My > recollection was that it was pretty robust, even if few made use of the > facility. > > --Chuck > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Feb 28 12:36:24 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 13:36:24 -0500 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <3382ee52-1c34-16bb-1ecc-51e5ff57dfa4@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 2/28/17 1:17 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 11:21 AM, allison via cctalk > wrote: >> On 2/28/17 10:55 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >>> I have a cute idea for a cassette port project for the Tandy line of >>> computers (the ones with the cassette port).... >>> >> Why not just go inside and grab the signal at it source before any of the >> analog? it starts life at TTL waveforms (not 5V). > It sounds like he is contemplating a battery-powered tape drive > emulator that plugs on the outside of the machine for users to use > without opening their boxes. It would then be portable to other > machines. Sounds like a great idea. A sound recorder, how novel. My I phone and androids already do that. Before that I use tape recorders. >> Why are you trying to get to 5V in the first place? > Digital input to the AVR. Sounds more complicated than need be. AVR can measure small signals using the A/D and then do a bit of looking for zeo crossing to detect bit times. Allison > -ethan > From brain at jbrain.com Tue Feb 28 12:50:18 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 12:50:18 -0600 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <20170228174207.GA19333@loomcom.com> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <20170228174207.GA19333@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On 2/28/2017 11:42 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Jim, > > When I was building a cassette circuit for my homebrew 6502 computer, > I essentially stole the Synertek SYM-1 circuit wholesale. See: > > http://www.loomcom.com/blog/2013/01/04/retrochallenge-update-comparator-vs-zero-crossing-detector/ > > http://www.loomcom.com/blog/2013/01/05/comparator-success/ > > Synertek used an LM311 (an LM358 would work just fine) to build a > comparator circuit. I _think_ you could use this exact circuit to > take the analog output from the CoCo and turn it into a 5V sqauare > wave. I will give it a try. Obviously, I'll need to reset the bias down to .5V from 2.5V in your design, but I can do that. I notice the design has no feedback, but has R93 feeding the reference into the inverting input. Any idea what the function of that resistor is? Jim From brain at jbrain.com Tue Feb 28 13:08:00 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 13:08:00 -0600 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <3382ee52-1c34-16bb-1ecc-51e5ff57dfa4@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9691ee71-33f7-8b85-2acf-c9b46bd22aee@jbrain.com> On 2/28/2017 12:36 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > A sound recorder, how novel. My I phone and androids already do that. > Before that I use tape recorders. Using a classic machine, how novel. My iPhone and androids already compute everything I need. Before that I used other machines still more capable than classic systems. > AVR can measure small signals using the A/D and then do a bit of > looking for zeo crossing to > detect bit times. Even that is too much work, since the AVR has an internal comparator (that will fire an interrupt on crossing), no need to measure voltage levels. But, as I noted in the original email, I already tried that, and did not have success. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From lars at nocrew.org Tue Feb 28 13:10:33 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 20:10:33 +0100 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: <821A80CE-B257-4DE6-A245-D7C81A26FA16@acm.org> ("Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= via cctech"'s message of "Tue, 28 Feb 2017 16:21:41 +0100") References: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> <45366AF4-83CA-48D5-A9B8-1E1AC3E9976A@comcast.net> <586981FA.9060800@ntlworld.com> <821A80CE-B257-4DE6-A245-D7C81A26FA16@acm.org> Message-ID: <86wpcam8ra.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Mattias Engdeg?rd wrote: > Data for VT100, VT220 and VT510 have been collected, as well as > several emulators > (https://github.com/mattiase/wraptest/blob/master/results.txt). If > anyone has access to other working terminals, VT3xx/VT4xx in > particular, I'd be most grateful if you would take a few minutes to > run the test program. I have a VT420 set up for my kid to play with. I'll borrow it and submit a pull request with the results. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 13:24:56 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 19:24:56 +0000 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <97cd6741-93c5-0266-0783-2be757b3b7ee@jbrain.com> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <97cd6741-93c5-0266-0783-2be757b3b7ee@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > A digital one. The current goal is to feed the incoming data stream into an > Atmel AVR running at 5V for parsing. The final goal is to do the same, but > run the AVR at 3V on two coin cells. OK. I assume you don't want to be running special software on the CoCo, since there are easier places to get a digital signal from if you can run special software (such as the RS232 port). > > [Comparators] > I saw the notes in the datasheet about the oscillation, and the recommended > way to overcome this. I also noticed the Coco 1 schematic includes this Yes, they do oscillate with the slightest provocation.... > exact recommendation. I then wired up the exact circuit, using the LM339 > from my Coco1, and the exact resistors and other passives as specified in > the schematic. > > Where do you get the 0.5V reference from? Well, if your 5V supply is stable > you > can use that, divided down with a couple of resistors. Say 9.1k and 1k in > series > across the supply, comparator input to the junction. > > The Coco1 creates a 1.05V reference via the 15K and 56K resistors. After I > noticed that the analog signal was centered around .5V, I quickly added > another 15K resistor in parallel with the first one, to create a 56K/7.5K > divider, which yields .591V as a reference. I am using a lab PSU, running > at 5.00V, but the resulting circuit did not respond to changes in the Coco > cassette data signal. I rechecked my circuit last night, but will recheck > it tonight in case I made some stupid wiring mistake. OK... Time to check the obvous. Firstly you have power to the comparator chip (Easily forgotten, I speak from experience). You have a pull-up resistor (say 1k, or 4k7) from the comparator output to +5V. Now measure the output of that resistor divider. Make sure it _is_ 0.6V or so. Use a 'scope in DC coupled mode (you do not want to lose the DC level of the signal by using AC coupling) to look at the signal from the CoCo on the other comparator input. -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 13:29:53 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 19:29:53 +0000 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <3382ee52-1c34-16bb-1ecc-51e5ff57dfa4@verizon.net> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <3382ee52-1c34-16bb-1ecc-51e5ff57dfa4@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 4:21 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > The tape recorders used had no agc. They were simple portables and used the > mic or line input and headphone output. I have to disagree with you there. I have just looked at the documentation for a couple of the Radio Shack tape recorders commonly used with TRS80s, and both have automatic gain control on recording. It is actually quite rare to see a simple portable cassette recorder which doesn't have automatic gain control (automatic level control). The early Philips machines like the EL3300 are the only ones I've come across. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 28 13:35:27 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:35:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <3382ee52-1c34-16bb-1ecc-51e5ff57dfa4@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Feb 2017, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > This year's CocoFEST is open to all TRS-80 models, not just the Coco, and I > noticed that many of the models have a similar cassette port connector yes. even the IBM PC 5150 uses the same connector and pinout, and cable (Radio Shack #26-1207) > (I think they have variations on the format), for some meaning of "variation" From spc at conman.org Tue Feb 28 14:02:32 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 15:02:32 -0500 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <3382ee52-1c34-16bb-1ecc-51e5ff57dfa4@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20170228200232.GB17636@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell via cctalk once stated: > On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 4:21 PM, allison via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > The tape recorders used had no agc. They were simple portables and used the > > mic or line input and headphone output. > > I have to disagree with you there. I have just looked at the documentation for a > couple of the Radio Shack tape recorders commonly used with TRS80s, and > both have automatic gain control on recording. I recall using a normal casette tape recorder with my Coco back in the day. I don't recall a gain control, but I do recall setting the volumn control way up. Never had a problem reading back tapes. -spc From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Feb 28 14:34:07 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 12:34:07 -0800 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 2017-Feb-28, at 7:55 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Analog, which is my nemesis, curses me again. > > I have a cute idea for a cassette port project for the Tandy line of computers (the ones with the cassette port). I have a Coco 3 on the bench, so I scoped the output line while doing 'csave "jim"'. The signal looks to be just under 1V PtP (0-1V on the scope), and rests at about .3V when not sending data. > > I have tried 6 different ways to boost the signal to 5V digital, to no avail, and so I ask humbly if someone with analog knowledge might be able to assist. > > I first tried to boost the signal with a transistor (with variations using a N channel FET as well). Arguably, that was foolhardy, and it did not work. > > My second attempt was based on this link that was shared with me: > > http://labs.rakettitiede.com/12kbps-simple-audio-data-transfer-for-avr/ > > The output from the Coco3 does not appear to be "loud" enough to work with this circuit. > > So, I finally decided a comparator solution would be required. > > First, I tried a design using a 741 op-amp, which failed miserably, but probably would have worked, but I tried to merge the design from the Coco1, and replace the LM339 in the Coco 1 design with the 741, and I feel I did not merge the designs well :-) > > I then tried using the comparator in an Atmel AVR, and had minimal success. By biasing one input via a variable resistor to around .8V, I was able to get a digital stream, but it did not look like the data stream of the cassette format. > > I then pried an LM339 out of my Coco1 and replicated the circuit int the Coco 1, as noted in the tech manual: > Color Computer Technical Reference Manual (Tandy).pdf > > I was shocked that I had no success with that design at all. I assumed (wrongly, it appears) that the Coco cassette input circuit would read the output of it's output circuit. Beyond the possibility that my components are defective or I wired it up wrongly, I can only theorize that Tandy assumed that all tape recorders would AGC the output and then feed a 2V PtP signal back to the Coco (the Coco 1 circuit looks to bias the comparator at 1.05V (not sure about the feedback resistor's impact)) > > I can fiddle around with the AVR solution, which might work if I can smooth out the spikes and bias the comparator right, but it just bothers me that the Coco 1 circuit does not work, as I assumed I would at least have success by copying a working design. In answer to the final point, and the interests of some analog education, looking at your reffed pdf, page 75, the reason (or one reason) your duplicated Coco input circuit is not working is the gross impedance mismatch between the coco tape output and input circuits. The output is high impedance: a 75K/24K voltage divider. The input is quite low impedance: a 220-ohm resistor to GND right at the front. When you connect them together they form another voltage divider which drops the coco tape output down to a few millivolts across the 220-ohm R, which then is the input to the 339 comparator (pin 10). The trip point for the comparator is set at 1.05V by the 56K/15K voltage divider at pin 11. If you want to play with the 339 comparator circuit, you could try adjusting the comparator trip point voltage divider (replace one of the 56K/15K appropriately) to get, say, 0.25V at pin 11; strip away all the input stuff at pin 10 and feed it directly from the tape output. (Could be a good exercise, watching the 399 output along with the tape output on a 2-chan scope). Using the internal AVR comparator sounds like a better final solution (fewer components), but in devising an input circuit for the AVR you may be running into the same issue of loading a high-impedance source. The 8.2K/6.8K R divider in the rakettitiede AVR circuit you tried is still quite disparate to the coco tape output and will load it, reducing the level seen by the AVR comparator. The blocking cap and biasing also changes the levels you would be looking for at the comparator. You could try multiplying the Rs of that divider up into the 10-100Ks range (probably best to reduce the 0.47 shunting C by a similar factor or more). However, considering you have a known and fixed source circuit (the coco tape output) you might try something even simpler for the AVR comparator input, such as just a 1K series R followed by a 220K to 470K R to GND. The comparator should then be seeing essentially the coco output wave shape and levels, without you having to adjust the software detection for biasing introduced by the input circuit. (This topic reminds me of my first assembly program as a teenager in the 70s, to make tape storage for a MEK 6800 SBC. I wanted to keep the hardware as minimal as possible and did pretty much the same thing, R divider to drive to the tape, simple comparator to digitise the sig from tape, simple encoding scheme with different pulse widths for 0/1, and timing loops in software to produce and detect the pulse widths.) From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Feb 28 12:51:26 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 13:51:26 -0500 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <3382ee52-1c34-16bb-1ecc-51e5ff57dfa4@verizon.net> Message-ID: <65ce688f-9353-b3bb-d39e-7a513b3ef2a0@verizon.net> On 2/28/17 1:43 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 2/28/2017 12:17 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> It sounds like he is contemplating a battery-powered tape drive >> emulator that plugs on the outside of the machine for users to use >> without opening their boxes. It would then be portable to other >> machines. Sounds like a great idea. > This year's CocoFEST is open to all TRS-80 models, not just the Coco, > and I noticed that many of the models have a similar cassette port > connector (I think they have variations on the format), and so I > thought of a neat project that might be of interest to all of the > participants of the show. > The TRS-80 used two formats! THe base 4K with 4K basic was a slower format than the 12K basic machine. The MM100 was a modem (bell 103 compatable). The pocket computer was again different I forget the format. COCOs I think were not all the same. Lots of ground to cover. Allison > As you note, picking off 5V from inside, while entirely possible, is > far from optimal, and a uC is the intended recipient. Besides, as > Tony implies, I should know this stuff, but I have indeed managed to > move along in my efforts for so many years without needing to use a > comparator :-) > > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 28 15:42:23 2017 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 21:42:23 -0000 Subject: list issue References: <000301d2915c$c7704c50$5650e4f0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00d801d2920b$c6d180c0$b90d0a0a@user8459cef6fa> Thanks for spotting that the list was down, and for fixing it so quickly. I can't begin to imagine how hard it is to move datacenters. Regards, Andrew Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk www.aliensrcooluk.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 12:51 AM Subject: list issue > So sorry for the temporary email outage on the list. We're moving > datacenters and one of my folks moved several front end mail processors - > not realizing that the classiccmp server which stayed behind was still using > them. > > > > Through the magic of a vpn tunnel between front end mx hosts and the backend > mailstores (classiccmp included), it seems to be back up. I'll talk to the > guy tomorrow to discuss the actual movement of that vm. Yes, IP's will be > changing for the list and all websites hosted therein. But DNS is "a thing", > so should be mostly transparent. Depending on timing, I may go ahead and do > some upgrades and recombine the lists - or may do that after the move. > > > > I'll try to do a better job of coordinating this.. > > > > Best, > > > > J > From RichA at livingcomputers.org Tue Feb 28 15:23:27 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 21:23:27 +0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system Message-ID: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> OK, it's official. I rarely criticize mail interfaces, because they're usually mostly innocuous. However, today's change makes life a lot more difficult. In the past, it was simple to direct a reply to an individual instead of to the list because the originator's address was right there in the From: header. As of today, the list address is substituted for that, so that it is impossible to respond privately unless you happen to have a bunch of old messages archived and the person to whom you want to respond is someone who has written previously. Is this a conscious choice, or a configurable with a different default setting in a new mail system than was previously in place? However it came to be, it greatly diminishes communications quality (IMAO). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From drb at msu.edu Tue Feb 28 15:50:01 2017 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 16:50:01 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 28 Feb 2017 21:23:27 +0000.) <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Is this a conscious choice, or a configurable with a different > default setting in a new mail system than was previously in place? > However it came to be, it greatly diminishes communications quality > (IMAO). You can blame me for the change to the way the From: header is handled. The purpose of this change is to try to solve the mass bounce problem. Actually, you should really blame the folks responsible for DKIM, SPF, ADSP, and the like. The designs of those systems, which purport to reduce spam, pretty much completely fail to consider the concept and operation of mailing lists. It may be possible to tune the content of the Reply-To field. I'll have a look. De From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 15:51:42 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 21:51:42 -0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <013a01d2920c$d9ca43a0$8d5ecae0$@outlook.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich > Alderson via cctalk > Sent: 28 February 2017 21:23 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: I hate the new mail system > > OK, it's official. I rarely criticize mail interfaces, because they're usually > mostly innocuous. However, today's change makes life a lot more difficult. > > In the past, it was simple to direct a reply to an individual instead of to the list > because the originator's address was right there in the From: header. As of > today, the list address is substituted for that, so that it is impossible to > respond privately unless you happen to have a bunch of old messages > archived and the person to whom you want to respond is someone who has > written previously. > "reply all" seems to put the original sender and the list in the "to:" field.. > Is this a conscious choice, or a configurable with a different default setting in > a new mail system than was previously in place? However it came to be, it > greatly diminishes communications quality (IMAO). > I suspect its to do with SPF records where domains publish a list of servers authorised to send mails "from" a certain domain in the DNS. Leaving the sender in gets the list server black-listed and the mail will be bounced by the many servers that check SPF records. > > > > Rich Alderson > > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > > Living Computers: Museum + Labs > > 2245 1st Avenue S > > Seattle, WA 98134 > > > Dave > mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org > > > > http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Feb 28 16:03:35 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 17:03:35 -0500 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <65ce688f-9353-b3bb-d39e-7a513b3ef2a0@verizon.net> References: <65ce688f-9353-b3bb-d39e-7a513b3ef2a0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <15a86c00365-d40-2b8b@webprd-a52.mail.aol.com> if anyone has a cable for the trs 80 model 100 small compact cassette drive to the 100 please lest us know. need this for demoing and display of the model 100 in the museum... thanks ed# www.smecc.org Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 allison via cctalk wrote: On 2/28/17 1:43 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 2/28/2017 12:17 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> It sounds like he is contemplating a battery-powered tape drive >> emulator that plugs on the outside of the machine for users to use >> without opening their boxes. It would then be portable to other >> machines. Sounds like a great idea. > This year's CocoFEST is open to all TRS-80 models, not just the Coco, > and I noticed that many of the models have a similar cassette port > connector (I think they have variations on the format), and so I > thought of a neat project that might be of interest to all of the > participants of the show. > The TRS-80 used two formats! THe base 4K with 4K basic was a slower format than the 12K basic machine. The MM100 was a modem (bell 103 compatable). The pocket computer was again different I forget the format. COCOs I think were not all the same. Lots of ground to cover. Allison > As you note, picking off 5V from inside, while entirely possible, is > far from optimal, and a uC is the intended recipient. Besides, as > Tony implies, I should know this stuff, but I have indeed managed to > move along in my efforts for so many years without needing to use a > comparator :-) > > From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Feb 28 16:06:03 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 14:06:03 -0800 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: When I hit "reply" I get both the originator's email and the lists email in my 'to' field. I can simply delete the list when I want to only reply to the originator. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Boone via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 4:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: I hate the new mail system > Is this a conscious choice, or a configurable with a different > default setting in a new mail system than was previously in place? > However it came to be, it greatly diminishes communications quality > (IMAO). You can blame me for the change to the way the From: header is handled. The purpose of this change is to try to solve the mass bounce problem. Actually, you should really blame the folks responsible for DKIM, SPF, ADSP, and the like. The designs of those systems, which purport to reduce spam, pretty much completely fail to consider the concept and operation of mailing lists. It may be possible to tune the content of the Reply-To field. I'll have a look. De From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 16:06:03 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 16:06:03 -0600 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <013a01d2920c$d9ca43a0$8d5ecae0$@outlook.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <013a01d2920c$d9ca43a0$8d5ecae0$@outlook.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich > > Alderson via cctalk > > Sent: 28 February 2017 21:23 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: I hate the new mail system > > > > OK, it's official. I rarely criticize mail interfaces, because they're > usually > > mostly innocuous. However, today's change makes life a lot more > difficult. > > > > In the past, it was simple to direct a reply to an individual instead of > to the list > > because the originator's address was right there in the From: header. As > of > > today, the list address is substituted for that, so that it is impossible > to > > respond privately unless you happen to have a bunch of old messages > > archived and the person to whom you want to respond is someone who has > > written previously. > > > > "reply all" seems to put the original sender and the list in the "to:" > field.. > At least in Gmail's web interface, I don't see reply and reply all having any difference here; they both put both addresses in the To:. I'll have to check how this works in an IMAP client later. But I for one welcome our new non-bounce-happy email system! :D > > > Is this a conscious choice, or a configurable with a different default > setting in > > a new mail system than was previously in place? However it came to be, > it > > greatly diminishes communications quality (IMAO). > > > > I suspect its to do with SPF records where domains publish a list of > servers > authorised to send mails "from" a certain domain in the DNS. > Leaving the sender in gets the list server black-listed and the mail will > be > bounced by the many servers that check SPF records. -- Eric Christopherson From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Feb 28 16:19:01 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 17:19:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: I hate the new mail system Message-ID: <20170228221901.C9D7F18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rich Alderson > it is impossible to respond privately unless you happen to have a bunch > of old messages archived and the person to whom you want to respond is > someone who has written previously. If you go into the list archive: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ the email address of the sender, for any given message, is still listed (in slightly mogrified form). Noel From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Feb 28 16:26:28 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 22:26:28 +0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <013a01d2920c$d9ca43a0$8d5ecae0$@outlook.com> Message-ID: <3d75c5a7-a01d-5805-30fd-4dc5620b7ea8@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/02/2017 22:06, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > At least in Gmail's web interface, I don't see reply and reply all having > any difference here; they both put both addresses in the To:. I'll have to > check how this works in an IMAP client later. It may vary in different clients, but in Thunderbird on my system (UW IMAP) "Reply" replies to what's in the "Reply To" header, normally cctalk and the original sender; "Reply List" replies just to cctalk; and "Reply All" differs in that it replies to cctalk, the original sender, and others quoted in the body. So for this particular message, "Reply All" would include Dave Wade as well as Eric. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Feb 28 16:22:24 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 22:22:24 +0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <27015607-d237-e020-5bc6-2826a53469cd@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/02/2017 21:23, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > OK, it's official. I rarely criticize mail interfaces, because > they're usually mostly innocuous. However, today's change makes life > a lot more difficult. Actually, I rather like it, because in my mail client (Thunderbird) it shows as "From: Classic Computers ". > In the past, it was simple to direct a reply to an individual instead > of to the list because the originator's address was right there in > the From: header. As of today, the list address is substituted for > that, so that it is impossible to respond privately unless you happen > to have a bunch of old messages archived and the person to whom you > want to respond is someone who has written previously. But the "Reply To:" header lists both cctalk and the original sender's address, which any mail client should honour, so all you should need to do is remove the cctalk address (Rich will get two copies of this because I didn't remove either address). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 28 16:43:36 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 14:43:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <20170228221901.C9D7F18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170228221901.C9D7F18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Simple question of policy (what do we WANT, not "what is the only sensible right way"): Do we want the DEFAULT to be replying to author, or replying to list? Current configuration has REPLY-TO being same as REPLY-ALL, and has REPLY being a reply to list, with the TO: line having the inconsistent OP's name, but list address. That means that a reply to list (such as this one) requires a trivial manual intervention, to delete OP's name and/or OP's address A reply to OP requires a trivial manual intervention to delete the list address. Sloppy behavior, of just hitting reply without paying attention will, depending on mail client either send to OP AND list, or to list, but with OP's name. (some mail programs respect "REPLY-TO", some don't) Careless failure to check the header may mean more mail going to list that had been intended to be private. We don't do a whole lot of posts that would be embarrassing to see public, . . . ("Can we get that idiot off of the list?") The current configuration CAN work out, if we all just make a tiny effort to pay attention to what we are doing, . . . Yeah, THAT will happen. This list has always worked better than a lot of commercially hosted lists! Thank you! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Feb 28 16:54:57 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 17:54:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [From: changing] > You can blame me for the change to the way the From: header is > handled. The purpose of this change is to try to solve the mass > bounce problem. Sounds as though this may be a cure worse than the disease, though. > Actually, you should really blame the folks responsible for DKIM, > SPF, ADSP, and the like. Depending on what you mean by "responsible", I might disagree. I don't blame the people who designed them. Depending on details I don't know, I blame either the people who adopted them without due consideration for their side effects or the people who chose a provider configured inappropriately for their desired use. (My guess from the outside is that the former is closer to appropriate here.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Feb 28 17:05:04 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 18:05:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance Message-ID: <20170228230504.857D818C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > I fail to see how anyone can be a good digital designer and not > understand analogue electronics. It's easy! As long as your devices are being run in a domain where their behaviour is purely, well, digital, one can get away with it! :-) I'm a perfect case in point! I seem to have some bizarre brain dysfunction where I have a very hard time understanding even the simplest analog circuits. You, or someone like Brent Hilpert (whose explanation of core memory drivers I still remember :-) can explain something with sufficient clarity for me to 'get' it, but I can almost never work it out on my own. However, I've designed a number of digital devices, at least one of which became a product! Noel From tingox at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 17:18:22 2017 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 00:18:22 +0100 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: FWIW, reply and reply all in Gmail web interface now lists both addresses (originator and mailing list). I don't know if this is a change again. Also, I find it somewhat funny in a bizarre way that people on this list who have experience with all kinds of systems, all kinds of user interfaces and many generations of machines (computers and otherwise) can complain over a little thing like this change. (Bikeshed?) Funny, now I suddenly feel a lot older than my fifty one years. HAND, -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 28 17:28:57 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 15:28:57 -0800 Subject: Analog design: was: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <20170228230504.857D818C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170228230504.857D818C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <26dd4e3a-c795-1943-8664-381c860b7a8e@sydex.com> On 02/28/2017 03:05 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I seem to have some bizarre brain dysfunction where I have a very > hard time understanding even the simplest analog circuits. You, or > someone like Brent Hilpert (whose explanation of core memory drivers > I still remember :-) can explain something with sufficient clarity > for me to 'get' it, but I can almost never work it out on my own. I always enjoyed reading the columns of the late Bob Peases in EDN. When the rest of the industry seemed to be nothing but digital, Bob was a great way to get your head cleared of all of the concentration on tricks with ones and zeroes. More than anything, when he wrote about analog circuits, it was more than just a twist on some binary algorithm; he made you think a bit about circuit design. I miss him and his floobydust. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 28 17:32:48 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 15:32:48 -0800 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> On 02/28/2017 03:18 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > FWIW, reply and reply all in Gmail web interface now lists both > addresses (originator and mailing list). I don't know if this is a > change again. > > Also, I find it somewhat funny in a bizarre way that people on this > list who have experience with all kinds of systems, all kinds of > user interfaces and many generations of machines (computers and > otherwise) can complain over a little thing like this change. > (Bikeshed?) I can deal with the new format pretty well, but for one aspect, which is very annoying. I use Thunderbird as my email reader. In the past, the "From" field displayed in the message summary would tell you who sent the message to the list. It no longer does--it's all "CCtalk". That makes separating the grain from the chaff a lot more difficult in my case. If anyone has a workaround for Thunderbird, I'm all ears. --Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 17:40:53 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 19:40:53 -0400 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> Well I am using Thunderbird 45.7.1 and I see this "Chuck Guzis via cctalk " as "From" in your message. Paul. On 2017-02-28 7:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 02/28/2017 03:18 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: >> FWIW, reply and reply all in Gmail web interface now lists both >> addresses (originator and mailing list). I don't know if this is a >> change again. >> >> Also, I find it somewhat funny in a bizarre way that people on this >> list who have experience with all kinds of systems, all kinds of >> user interfaces and many generations of machines (computers and >> otherwise) can complain over a little thing like this change. >> (Bikeshed?) > I can deal with the new format pretty well, but for one aspect, which is > very annoying. > > I use Thunderbird as my email reader. In the past, the "From" field > displayed in the message summary would tell you who sent the message to > the list. It no longer does--it's all "CCtalk". > > That makes separating the grain from the chaff a lot more difficult in > my case. > > If anyone has a workaround for Thunderbird, I'm all ears. > > --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 28 18:08:34 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 16:08:34 -0800 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 02/28/2017 03:40 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > Well I am using Thunderbird 45.7.1 and I see this "Chuck Guzis via > cctalk " as "From" in your message. > Hmmm, this is very puzzling. Your message does indeed show up as being from "Paul Berger", by the message you replied to shows up as being from "CCtalk" Is someone tweaking the system as we speak? --Chuck From spc at conman.org Tue Feb 28 18:46:57 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 19:46:57 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170301004657.GA9683@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis via cctalk once stated: > On 02/28/2017 03:40 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > Well I am using Thunderbird 45.7.1 and I see this "Chuck Guzis via > > cctalk " as "From" in your message. > > > > Hmmm, this is very puzzling. Your message does indeed show up as being > from "Paul Berger", by the message you replied to shows up as being from > "CCtalk" > > Is someone tweaking the system as we speak? Here are the critical headers from your (Chunk) email: List-Post: From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Reply-To: Chuck Guzis , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Errors-To: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Sender: "cctalk" The from address is cctalk at classiccomp.org. The reply-to addresses contains your (Chuck) email address (blanked out) in addition to the cctalk address. An email will use the reply-to address, but I could see an email client using the list-post address when replying (since that informs the email client that this email from a mailing list). So here we have From: munging (that's a twist!) and Reply-To: munging but by adding an address instead of outright replacement (intresting solution to munging [1][2]). So when you (not Chuck) hit reply, it goes to your (Chuck) email address and cctalk. -spc (Who runs his own email server ... ) [1] "Reply-To" Munging Considered Harmful http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html [2] Reply-To Munging Considered Useful http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/reply-to-useful.html From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 28 19:43:10 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 17:43:10 -0800 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> Message-ID: <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> On 02/28/2017 05:21 PM, Jon Auringer wrote: > > Chuck, > > I had the same display issue. Uncheck "Show only display name for > people in my address book" under Tools-Options-Display-Advanced. Jon, Thanks for the hint! I'm using the Linux version of Thunderbird, so the setting isn't under "Tools"; it took me a bit of searching to find it. In the *nix version, it appears to be under Edit->Preferences->Display. That seems to have fixed things. Thanks again, Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Feb 28 20:44:43 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 20:44:43 -0600 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <58B6359B.4060707@pico-systems.com> On 02/28/2017 03:23 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > OK, it's official. I rarely criticize mail interfaces, because they're usually > mostly innocuous. However, today's change makes life a lot more difficult. > > In the past, it was simple to direct a reply to an individual instead of to the > list because the originator's address was right there in the From: header. As > of today, the list address is substituted for that, so that it is impossible to > respond privately unless you happen to have a bunch of old messages archived and > the person to whom you want to respond is someone who has written previously. > > Is this a conscious choice, or a configurable with a different default setting > in a new mail system than was previously in place? However it came to be, it > greatly diminishes communications quality (IMAO). > Your email is still coming through in the Reply to: header line. I looked at the full headers. In fact, Thunderbird is going to send a direct email to you at your LCM address without my doing anything. Jon From isking at uw.edu Tue Feb 28 20:50:53 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 18:50:53 -0800 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 10:47 AM, Earl Evans via cctech > wrote: > > I'm on the other side of the country or I'd be all over this. > > I'm hours away myself... > > > Someone please rescue this equipment. The thought of it going to the > scrappers is, well, brutal. > > Indeed. > > > Aren't PDP-11/60s kind of a rare beast? > > Quite rare. I've seen more 11/20s than 11/60s... (not that either > number is large). > > -ethan > PDP-11/60 - the fastest PDP-8 ever built! :-) -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From other at oryx.us Tue Feb 28 21:45:16 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 21:45:16 -0600 Subject: Sparcbook 3TX Hard Drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: However it plays out for you, thanks for sharing with the group. I always wanted a SPARCbook, never could afford one at the time, and according to the wife, now would not be a good time to acquire one according to the wife after just picking up a SPARCserver 1000e + 3 large SPARCarray's. Living vicariously thru your SPARCbook experience now. Hope everything goes well with this project. Jerry On 02/28/17 10:07 AM, Ben Sinclair via cctalk wrote: > Hi Jerry, thanks for the info. I do have a some SCSI2SD adapters, though I > would still have the problem with the weird internal connector and lack of > a drive caddy to hold anything. > > I mean, I can't use a Sparcbook at the coffee shop with an external > drive... That would be embarrassing! > From RichA at livingcomputers.org Tue Feb 28 16:11:30 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 22:11:30 +0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <013a01d2920c$d9ca43a0$8d5ecae0$@outlook.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <013a01d2920c$d9ca43a0$8d5ecae0$@outlook.com> Message-ID: From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 1:52 PM > "reply all" seems to put the original sender and the list in the "to:" > field.. Thanks, Dave, Dennis, and js. I had no reason to reply (all) to any of these messages, and the text in the From: header is what is displayed by the mail system in use at the museum; real headers are only visible by "opening" the message and choosing an obscure function on the "ribbon" (and they're not displayed well then). It used to be, of course, that in order to reply privately, I had to hit a Reply button and edit the resulting To: header manually; I still will have to, but now it's to remove something rather than substitute it. Sorry for the noise. Rich From mattiase at acm.org Tue Feb 28 16:53:21 2017 From: mattiase at acm.org (=?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?=) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 23:53:21 +0100 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: <86wpcam8ra.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> <45366AF4-83CA-48D5-A9B8-1E1AC3E9976A@comcast.net> <586981FA.9060800@ntlworld.com> <821A80CE-B257-4DE6-A245-D7C81A26FA16@acm.org> <86wpcam8ra.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: 28 feb. 2017 kl. 20.10 skrev Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk : > I have a VT420 set up for my kid to play with. I'll borrow it and > submit a pull request with the results. That is what I call being a responsible parent. Many thanks for the VT420 results!