From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat Apr 1 08:41:45 2017 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 15:41:45 +0200 Subject: OT: PCI Ethernet or USB 2.0 ethernet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170401134144.GA5264@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 12:44:28PM -0700, W2HX via cctalk wrote: [...] > The question is, whether you think I would be better off using PCI wifi card > or a USB-wifi adapter. I should mention the USB on this instrument is USB > 2.0, the spec for which claims up to 480 Mbps. Anyone have an opinion which > might get me better results? The wifi infrastructure is one constant in this > scenario, just looking to see pci- or usb-based wifi card. Both USB 2.0 and PCI are orders of magnitude faster than real-world wifi. Even ISA will give wifi a run for its money. I recommend you not bother with wifi if you care about network performance. USB 3.0 to Gigabit Ethernet dongles exist, and are cheap. They should work in your machine's USB 2.0 port (which now becomes the limiting factor) and you can expect to see throughput of about 300Mb/s half-duplex with that arrangement. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 1 11:19:39 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 09:19:39 -0700 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <58DFC71A.7080609@pico-systems.com> References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> <58DEFF3B.2060207@pico-systems.com> <3ed158f3-2766-be45-b756-3bd685c4a29e@sydex.com> <58DFC71A.7080609@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <3e3632df-ef14-fb10-9be9-a5eea91ee444@sydex.com> On 04/01/2017 08:28 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/31/2017 11:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: >> I use pretty much the same method, but start off with just a >> binocular loupe and then finish with a stereo microscope for final >> inspection. > Oh, the trick for this is there are inspection microscopes with long > working distance that allow you plenty of room to get your hands and > tools under them. Generally from about 4-6". Then, it is a breeze > to solder under the microscope. My B&L Stereozoom allows a pretty generous space; I just don't like the feel of doing soldering looking through two eyepieces. My 10 power Optivisor doesn't get in the way and allows me to get the process started easily. As far as illumination, I find that a slightly offset light source under the microscope is more useful than the ring light. You get a bit of shadow with the offset source, which makes defects stand out a bit more. BGA, on the other hand, is something that I haven't mastered--and I doubt that I ever will, given the small size of some of the parts. FWIW, Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 1 12:03:25 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 12:03:25 -0500 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <3e3632df-ef14-fb10-9be9-a5eea91ee444@sydex.com> References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> <58DEFF3B.2060207@pico-systems.com> <3ed158f3-2766-be45-b756-3bd685c4a29e@sydex.com> <58DFC71A.7080609@pico-systems.com> <3e3632df-ef14-fb10-9be9-a5eea91ee444@sydex.com> Message-ID: <58DFDD5D.6080208@pico-systems.com> On 04/01/2017 11:19 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > BGA, on the other hand, is something that I haven't > mastered--and I doubt that I ever will, given the small > size of some of the parts. Yes, I'm with you. if I get bad soldering on a leaded flat-pack, I can poke the leads with an X-acto knife to find the ones that wiggle, and then touch up the soldering and test again. With a BGA or leadless package, there's no easy way to detect or fix bad soldering. Jon From t.gardner at computer.org Sat Apr 1 12:40:53 2017 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 10:40:53 -0700 Subject: Chip in first Apple AirPort WiFi Message-ID: <004f01d2ab0f$1d388c30$57a9a490$@computer.org> Anyone know which Lucent semiconductor device or devices were used in the first Apple AirPort, the Lucent board was " Lucent WaveLAN Silver PC Card" but I'd like to know the devices used. Tom From chrise at pobox.com Sat Apr 1 12:41:17 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 12:41:17 -0500 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170401174117.GV28832@n0jcf.net> Are there any swap meets / flea markets in the area on weekends anymore? I will be there in a couple weeks with a free Friday and Saturday. With Friday likely reserved for CHM, I'd track down a swap meet on Saturday if such things still exist. Chris N?JCF On Friday (03/31/2017 at 09:17PM -0500), Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: > I thought the Vintage Computer festival west link might have recommended hotels but I couldn't find anything for you. > I did a similar trip but needed to be quite a few hours south for my actual destination. I didn't find a very cheap hotel either, and the under $100 one I did find near long Beach was quite underwhelming. The type my wife wouldn't have let us stay at. > What I did find more useful was a super small rental car for $98 that did give me much more freedom to get around a few sites (and Weird Stuff). ?It was highly recommended not to sleep in the car though so best luck. > I explored airbnb but it seems to mirror closely to hotel prices and a surprisingly large amount want a 2 day stay. > But CHM is definitely a fun trip. I have a quite large collection for home computing so I wasn't sure how long I'd stay occupied but between the demos and tours and just perusing I definitely could have enjoyed more than the afternoon I spent. > Best recommendations were ubering or rental car then get a hotel in your price range but don't worry as much about location. Or get one near the train. > -- Chris Elmquist From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 1 12:53:31 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 10:53:31 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <20170401174117.GV28832@n0jcf.net> References: <20170401174117.GV28832@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: DeAnza College swap in Cupertino happens on the 2nd Sat of the month. eBay has pretty much killed off anything of value there. On 4/1/17 10:41 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > Are there any swap meets / flea markets in the area on weekends anymore? > From dce at skynet.be Sat Apr 1 14:33:51 2017 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 21:33:51 +0200 Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and restarting Message-ID: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> Hi guys ! My name is Dominique, 43 , from Belgium (I apologize in advance for my approximate English). I join this forum under the recommendations of Curious Marc. It seems there are people here who can help me to get back to life the venerable machine that I have just recovered. Some pictures of the beast : http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg It is a "Nixdor 600 series" (Apparently a Nixdorf 620/35), upgraded several times until 1980, the CPU board is dated from this year. So I do not know exactly what machine it is today the equivalent. Anyway, the Nixdorf 620 is actually built by "Digital Computer Controls" and after some researches it seems that it is a "DCC-116 E", the 17 slot version of the "DCC-116" which Is a clone of the "Data General Nova 2/10". http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg The machine has five Key-stations (ENTREX DATA/SCOPE), a Mag-tape Pertec 8840A - A Disk Cartridge Diablo Model 40 and a big line drum printer (Data Products model 2230), strange machine, there is a tape reader inside the printer. Here is the list of the boards I have with the references written on them and their position in the machine: *17 HEX 0 ? 15 ENTREX INC 62 00 01842 002 REV A* *16 HEX 16 30 31 ENTREX INC 62 00 01842 002 REV A** 15 OPTION 2 Empty** 14 OPTION 1 Empty** 13 PRINTER ENTREX INC SN598** 12 TAPE 556/800 BPI 2433 LFI 213** 11 TAPE 1600 BPI Empty** 10 DISK 2456 00 MP-Kontroller D44an620 6393500215 2456 7 0 1577** 09 COMMO Empty** 08 SCANNER Scanner BD 2431 NCAG 54147.1.15 2431 02394** 07 MEM 1609 0 7 02616** 06 MEM Empty** 05 MEM 1609 0 8 02367** 04 MEM 1615 01 9 5596** 03 TTY Empty** 02 DO NOT USE Empty** 01 C.P. 1509 05 4 04436* Concerning this I also ask a few questions: * What are the boards in slots 16 and 17 for? * I do not have a COM card, does that mean that I could not attempt a serial transmission (type rs232) with this actual setup ? * I have no idea how many kilobytes are present, apparently there are two core memory cards (8kb each? 16Kb each?), And non-core RAM board. I first solved a problem with the power supply of the disk pack (bad HF filter, short-circuited with the chassis, then it is also dead HF filter in the "multi-plug" of the chassis that start to burn, once these problems were solved, I cleaned the machine thoroughly, cleaning the heads of readings with isopropyl alcohol, I Not yet cleaned the disc himself which at first glance looks extremely clean, it has not left the machine for 30 years. http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg I cleaned all the guides and the heads of the nine track tape Pertec 8840A. There was also a false contact in the ON-LINE button. I did a first cleanup. I think there is always a problem with the HI-DEN button used to set the magtape to 800BPI. It is currently ineffective, but I have a doubt about the contacts of the lamp socket). http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg I then cleaned all the sockets and contacts at the boards of the computer (logic and PSU) http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg Unfortunately, after a couple of hours, the "POWER FAIL" light has started to light up. The problem here is that I have no schematics, it is a modular power supply consisting of two elements: http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg One seems to be dedicated to the 15 VDC regulated, the second module is in charge of the regulated 5VDC. Both elements have a "Power fail module". When the machine is completely populated I now observe that the + 5VDC collapses at +1,9VDC. Here what I measured out, you will also see what the boards of these power supply look like. http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg Another thing I noted during my measurements, where I should (I think) measure 15V, I have 18V, looking at the documentation on the NOVA 2 (4 slots), I observed according to the diagrams below That there is 18V but before a zener diode and not at the level of connectors where there must be 15VDC, should I warn me ? Would the diode be dead ? I tried to join temporarily a secondary regulated power supply to reinforce the + 5VDC so as to be sure that the problem did not come from the logical part of the computer which checks these voltages and triggers the Power Fail status. By coupling this external regulated power supply, the computer restarts again, thus it is definitively the power supply (or the comparator component(s) of the power fail module) If I removes all the boards (printer, core memory, scanner, disk controller, etc.), the Power Fail light eventually goes out, I get again the 5VDC, so the power has become "too weak" to power the computer when it is fully populated. Despite the temporary (and dangerous) look of my assembly with secondary power supply, I could not stop myself and attempt a boot procedure via the Cold Start button of the machine from the Disk Pack, and it works! :-) http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/first_boot.jpg It seems that I still have problems with the magtape, I had errors trying to read a backup, but it may be simply because I still cannot get the machine in 800BPI because of the capricious buttons of the front panel. I also wrote a tape mark via a "WRITE TAPE MARK AND REWIND" function, the mark seems to be written but does not do the Rewind, however if I launch a REWIND only function, it executes the action appropriately. In short, still things to investigate on this side. Notes that the Operating system I used to make these tests is a very limited OS named DIDOS which was distributed by Nixdorf for his 620 Serie. As the machine is a clone of DG NOVA 2/10, I wonder if the computer is compatible with programs for the NOVA series of Data General? So I wonder if the DCC-116 was compatible with the software for NOVAs? The other questions I ask myself at this point are the ways to transfer softwares or bootable OS on this machine? I have no other disk pack on another system but I have a nine track tape TU81 + connected to a VAX 4000-605A under OpenVMS 6.2, and I can put this computer on my network. Do you think there's a way to make a bootable tape for my NOVA 2 clone with the Pertec 8840A from a VAX 4000 with a TU81+ ? Well, to continue, I have to repair this PSU, all information is welcome, schematics would be ideal of course. Finally, note that I am not a professional electronics technician, I fixed a lot of machines basic knowledge, intuition, researches, comparisons and logic, it is effective but full of limitations too, so forgive me in advance If I do not always understand the possible answers of electronics in "high engineering" mode ;-) As a bonus, the V1 of a small video mounted with a few clips captured during a session of my nocturnal repairs, during the first boot of the machine since 3 decades ! (on my music, yes, I'm also a composer ;-) ) https://youtu.be/5jWOUtLKRIU Thanks a lot to all in advance ;-) Dominique From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 1 15:45:44 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 13:45:44 -0700 Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and restarting In-Reply-To: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> Message-ID: On 4/1/17 12:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: > strange machine, there is a tape reader inside the printer. it is used to program vertical forms postioning. the format tape is in a loop From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Apr 1 16:01:50 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 14:01:50 -0700 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 5, 2017, at 8:48 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > The method I've used very successfully for unknown packs is: > > 1) I first mount the pack in a drive that has a good absolute filter, > and has had the head load disabled, and spin it for a few hours. I?m getting to the point in my RK05 restore where I?m about ready to try spinning up a pack so I can work through the various offline dynamic checks. I have a pretty clean looking pack to start with (has been stored in plastic bag, etc) that doesn?t have any particularly valuable data (just an RKDP backup, according to the label, and I have the original as well). But I thought it?d be prudent to give it a clean first anyway just in case. In step one of the process quoted above, is it enough to put the toggle on the servo amp board in the down position to disable head load? Or is it best to disable head load in some other way (e.g. jumpers on the backplane, or disconnecting any particular cables?) thanks! ?FritzM. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 1 17:04:24 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 15:04:24 -0700 Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and restarting In-Reply-To: References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> Message-ID: <1bf65e45-fafe-38d5-254a-6b9ee11f309f@sydex.com> On 04/01/2017 01:45 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/1/17 12:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: >> strange machine, there is a tape reader inside the printer. > > it is used to program vertical forms postioning. the format tape is > in a loop ...and whatever you do, don't lose the tape. There will be "interesting" consequences the moment some program does a form feed (skip on channel 1)... --Chuck From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Apr 1 17:23:41 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 15:23:41 -0700 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <25333549-D989-4221-A908-AEBE54B858D3@fritzm.org> > On Apr 1, 2017, at 2:53 PM, Marc Howard wrote: > > BTW, have you replaced the emergency head retract batteries and/or allowed them to reach full charge? Yes, have done replacement. Haven?t put a charge on them yet, but figured running the drive for a couple hours with disabled head load I could de-dust my first candidate pack while simultaneously charging the batteries. cheers, ?FritzM. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Apr 1 09:01:54 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 10:01:54 -0400 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 31, 2017, at 7:28 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > > ... > I've not gone over to the Rohs side, most of the solders are not fun to > work with though a > few have very active fluxes and solder aluminium well. So its Kester > 44 in 10 and > 20 mil (inch mil) diameters. Before building my most recent project (which involves an unpleasantly small-pitched TSOP package housing multiple RS232 level converters) I asked experts at work (technicians who do a lot of fine detail soldering) about RoHS. The answer was very clear. If you must use that stuff because of regulations, that's one thing. If it's for your own use and the rules aren't applicable, don't be silly, use real solder. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 1 10:25:30 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 10:25:30 -0500 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> Message-ID: <58DFC66A.9080201@pico-systems.com> On 03/31/2017 12:55 PM, Jim Brain via cctech wrote: > On 3/31/2017 12:51 PM, allison via cctech wrote: >> Is this something that an experienced hand can manually do? > > I can verify that it is indeed possible. I lay down > xc95144xl-tq100s all the time with my iron and some flux > and some wick, and I get nearly 100% rates. My eyes are > not what they used to be either, so a magnifying glass and > a light touch makes all the difference. > > I am sure others on list are even better than I, but I > recommend flux, place the IC, and then carefully set the > board aside to dry. The flux will dry, turn into "glue" > (as the alcohol evaporates), and that helps with soldering. For chips of the 0.65 mm lead pitch, you should be able to lay a bead of solder paste down with a syringe, and then tack down 2 corner leads. Once that is done, you can draw the soldering tip across the leads and solder one whole side in about 10 seconds. A big solder short will just roll down from lead to lead until it is at the end. You need the soldering tip to be pretty hot to draw the solder along with it. It does take some skill to know just how much solder paste to put down -- you want very LITTLE paste for the draw the blob along trick to work. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 1 10:28:26 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 10:28:26 -0500 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <3ed158f3-2766-be45-b756-3bd685c4a29e@sydex.com> References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> <58DEFF3B.2060207@pico-systems.com> <3ed158f3-2766-be45-b756-3bd685c4a29e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <58DFC71A.7080609@pico-systems.com> On 03/31/2017 11:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > I use pretty much the same method, but start off with just > a binocular loupe and then finish with a stereo microscope > for final inspection. Oh, the trick for this is there are inspection microscopes with long working distance that allow you plenty of room to get your hands and tools under them. Generally from about 4-6". Then, it is a breeze to solder under the microscope. Jon From cramcram at gmail.com Sat Apr 1 16:53:43 2017 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 14:53:43 -0700 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: BTW, have you replaced the emergency head retract batteries and/or allowed them to reach full charge? Marc On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Jan 5, 2017, at 8:48 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > > The method I've used very successfully for unknown packs is: > > > > 1) I first mount the pack in a drive that has a good absolute filter, > > and has had the head load disabled, and spin it for a few hours. > > I?m getting to the point in my RK05 restore where I?m about ready to try > spinning up a pack so I can work through the various offline dynamic > checks. I have a pretty clean looking pack to start with (has been stored > in plastic bag, etc) that doesn?t have any particularly valuable data (just > an RKDP backup, according to the label, and I have the original as well). > But I thought it?d be prudent to give it a clean first anyway just in case. > > In step one of the process quoted above, is it enough to put the toggle on > the servo amp board in the down position to disable head load? Or is it > best to disable head load in some other way (e.g. jumpers on the backplane, > or disconnecting any particular cables?) > > thanks! > ?FritzM. > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 1 20:59:54 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 18:59:54 -0700 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <298086a8-ce93-e85b-b251-16d63272a586@sydex.com> On 04/01/2017 07:01 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Before building my most recent project (which involves an > unpleasantly small-pitched TSOP package housing multiple RS232 level > converters) I asked experts at work (technicians who do a lot of fine > detail soldering) about RoHS. > > The answer was very clear. If you must use that stuff because of > regulations, that's one thing. If it's for your own use and the > rules aren't applicable, don't be silly, use real solder. That goes for repairing things also. I owned a Volvo in the late 90s that would develop strange electrical problems, such as the headlights suddenly not working. The culprit was the Bosch relay modules, many of which had small PCBs in them. Resoldering the PCBs with real solder did the job until I sold the thing. The audio system is similarly affected--if the audio suddenly drops out, grab the soldering iron. I bought a coffee maker in about 2004 that quit working after a few months. Resoldering the PCB again did the trick--I still use the thing today. RoHS solder is a plague, particularly in hostile environments. I've heard that most good plumbers who work with copper pipe, hide a spool of 50-50 in the bottom of their toolboxes, just in case. (50-50 has a wide "plastic" range and can be "tooled" to fill gaps.) Brass musical instruments are now assembled with RoHS solder. It's not unusual to find that the only thing holding some parts together is the lacquer finish--the solder has long since let go. --Chuck From wilson at dbit.com Sat Apr 1 21:41:22 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 22:41:22 -0400 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170402024122.GA833@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 11:32:08AM +0000, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >One of the biggest challenges for the last >run was getting the QFP-packaged 100-pin chips[1] in a state such that the >pick-and-place robot wouldn't throw a fit about slight differences in lead >position. The stuffing house insisted that I send them new chips. What an odd problem! Well I have no idea what it feels like to be a CV system so I don't know how to make one happy, but if it were my design I'd lean toward (1) re-design using still-available chips (and hoard the hell out of them this time), and/or (2) hand-soldering. Everyone's jumped in with lots of QFP soldering thoughts. Have some more: - www.oshstencils.com is awesome. - RoHS solder is *fine*. Maybe it wasn't in its infancy but it is now. I don't understand all the hate. I've been using it for almost everything for ~10 years now. Yes I have to use higher temps but that's the iron's problem (PTA8 tip instead of PTA7 on my WTCPT, and twiddle the knobs on the other thingies). - I do QFPs (0.5mm and 0.4mm) using a cheap eBay binocular microscope, Ameritronics solder paste, and a toaster oven controlled by an Arduino with a homemade shield on it (with a MAX6675 for a K-type Sparkfun thermocouple which I position touching the PCB somewhere, START and RESET buttons, a header for LCD status display, and terminals for an SSR which turns the toaster oven on/off). It's *fantastic*. Push the START button and everything's done when you come back (it follows the usual temp profile automatically). I often have to do some soder-wicking afterward (maybe I should be using thinner stencils, and I always overdo it when I use a syringe directly), but the chip stays aligned as the paste melts and the success rate has been excellent. And solder bridges are self-fixing. John Wilson D Bit From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Apr 1 22:28:37 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:28:37 -0700 Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and restarting In-Reply-To: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> Message-ID: <13010964-006E-441A-9052-9D5BBBA946BE@nf6x.net> I do not have anything useful to say, but I liked your pictures and video. Congratulations on a successful first boot! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 1 23:27:47 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 21:27:47 -0700 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <20170402024122.GA833@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20170402024122.GA833@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3bc75e29-0132-fbc7-aa52-7997865c2c6c@sydex.com> On 04/01/2017 07:41 PM, John Wilson via cctalk wrote: > - I do QFPs (0.5mm and 0.4mm) using a cheap eBay binocular > microscope, Ameritronics solder paste, and a toaster oven controlled > by an Arduino with a homemade shield on it (with a MAX6675 for a > K-type Sparkfun thermocouple which I position touching the PCB > somewhere, START and RESET buttons, a header for LCD status display, > and terminals for an SSR which turns the toaster oven on/off). It's > *fantastic*. Push the START button and everything's done when you > come back (it follows the usual temp profile automatically). I often > have to do some soder-wicking afterward (maybe I should be using > thinner stencils, and I always overdo it when I use a syringe > directly), but the chip stays aligned as the paste melts and the > success rate has been excellent. And solder bridges are > self-fixing. That's interesting, John. I've heard about the toaster oven thing for several years now, but never tried it. What do you do about boards with SMT components on *both* sides? I can't see how it would work with a toaster oven. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 1 23:51:55 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 23:51:55 -0500 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <3bc75e29-0132-fbc7-aa52-7997865c2c6c@sydex.com> References: <20170402024122.GA833@dbit.dbit.com> <3bc75e29-0132-fbc7-aa52-7997865c2c6c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <58E0836B.8080104@pico-systems.com> On 04/01/2017 11:27 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > What do you do about boards with SMT components on *both* > sides? I can't see how it would work with a toaster oven. OK, this is going to be long. I do small-scale production of mostly motion control boards, but also some nuclear instrumentation. Mostly 0603 to 0805 passives and SOIC up to 0.5mm pitch QFP chips. I use a lot of FPGAs in 144 pin packages. I have a Philips CSM84 pick and place machine. This is an old-style machine, with mechanical alignment jaws for centering and rotation, no vision, except it has a "one pixel camera" called a beam sensor to pick up the fiducials on the PCB. It steers the XY gantry around to map out the fiducial spots. I make my own solder stencils using my existing PCB fab gear (which I almost never use for making PCBs anymore, just too much mess.) But, a solder stencil is basically a PC board without the glass epoxy substrate. I use .003" brass shim stock, laminate dry film photoresist, expose, etch in ferric chloride and, voila, a stencil. A BIG part of the trick is to know how to reduce aperture size for specific chips. As the lead pitch gets finer, the apertures have to get smaller, or you end up with solder bridges. So, after applying the solder paste with the stencil, and then running through the pick & place machine, I put it in the GE toaster oven. I bought the biggest toaster oven they had at WalMart ten years ago. I got a thermocouple ramp and soak controller and a roll of thermocouple wire on eBay. The ramp and soak controller can follow a profile of the sort: Start at room temp ramp to 180 C at 30 C / minute hold at 180 C for 1 minute ramp to 245 C at 30 C / minute hold at 245 C for 1 minute ramp to original temp at 50 C / minute One of the tricks I found out very fast was the thermocouple doesn't absorb IR the way a board does, the first board I did came out warped like a potato chip and nearly black. It occurred the me to poke the thermocouple junction into a through-hole in the board, and then it all worked. I still have some slight problems with some areas of the oven running a bit cooler or hotter, so I have to tweak the peak temp setting sometimes to get all the boards soldered. I was lucky to find really FINE thermocouple wire on eBay, so that the junctions are small enough to fit even fairly small through holes. I've done well over 1000 boards with this system. Oh, and most of it is RoHS, too. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 1 23:58:24 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 23:58:24 -0500 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <3bc75e29-0132-fbc7-aa52-7997865c2c6c@sydex.com> References: <20170402024122.GA833@dbit.dbit.com> <3bc75e29-0132-fbc7-aa52-7997865c2c6c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <58E084F0.5050003@pico-systems.com> On 04/01/2017 11:27 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > What do you do about boards with SMT components on *both* > sides? I can't see how it would work with a toaster oven Oh, part 2. Most of my boards have parts on both sides. If you have a glue dispenser, you can apply glue to your first side part locations after solder paste but before part placement, then print solder for 2nd side, place parts and then reflow both sides at once. Well, I don't have a glue dispenser, although it is an option on my P&P machine. So, I print the solder paste on the back side (mostly decoupling caps) place these parts and reflow, then print solder paste for the front, place the ICs, etc. and reflow again. I do have one board with a 5-lead TO-220 switching regulator chip on the back side. I didn't know if it would fall off or not, but tried it, and was amazed that I've NEVER had one fall off when the top side was reflowed. The solder almost certainly goes liquid again, but the surface tension holds even this large part in place! The small passives on the back will be held by surface tension for sure! Jon From cube1 at charter.net Sat Apr 1 20:47:02 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 21:47:02 -0400 Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and restarting In-Reply-To: <1bf65e45-fafe-38d5-254a-6b9ee11f309f@sydex.com> References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> <1bf65e45-fafe-38d5-254a-6b9ee11f309f@sydex.com> Message-ID: Typically not, since with no tape it should act like all the holes are punched, yes? Sent from my iPad > On Apr 1, 2017, at 18:04, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > >> On 04/01/2017 01:45 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On 4/1/17 12:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: >>> strange machine, there is a tape reader inside the printer. >> >> it is used to program vertical forms postioning. the format tape is >> in a loop > > > ...and whatever you do, don't lose the tape. There will be > "interesting" consequences the moment some program does a form feed > (skip on channel 1)... > > --Chuck From wilson at dbit.com Sun Apr 2 00:43:32 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 01:43:32 -0400 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <3bc75e29-0132-fbc7-aa52-7997865c2c6c@sydex.com> References: <20170402024122.GA833@dbit.dbit.com> <3bc75e29-0132-fbc7-aa52-7997865c2c6c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20170402054332.GA4125@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Apr 01, 2017 at 09:27:47PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >What do you do about boards with SMT components on *both* sides? I >can't see how it would work with a toaster oven. I have much less experience than Jon Elson but I've tried it a few times and my results agree with his: surface tension does the trick. I cook it once with the solder side up and put on the decoupling caps (all I've ever had on the flip side -- some chips need dozens and it's the only way to fit them all), then flip it and perch the edges of the board on two pieces of tiny aluminum tubing from a hobby store (so the center of the board won't touch the rack in the toaster oven and nothing will disturb the caps), and cook on the rest of the parts. Once or twice I've been desoldering and *wanted* parts to fall off, and I had to get in there and thwack it at the point when it's hot enough, since otherwise they're happy where they are (that's impressive about the TO-220 but I can see it!). John Wilson D Bit From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Apr 2 02:38:36 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 09:38:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: OT: PCI Ethernet or USB 2.0 ethernet? In-Reply-To: <20170401134144.GA5264@mooli.org.uk> References: <20170401134144.GA5264@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Apr 2017, Peter Corlett wrote: > Both USB 2.0 and PCI are orders of magnitude faster than real-world > wifi. Even ISA will give wifi a run for its money. I recommend you not > bother with wifi if you care about network performance. No, USB 2.0 is way too slow for 802.11ac that outperforms GBE. Christian From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Apr 2 08:37:07 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 09:37:07 -0400 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <58E0836B.8080104@pico-systems.com> References: <20170402024122.GA833@dbit.dbit.com> <3bc75e29-0132-fbc7-aa52-7997865c2c6c@sydex.com> <58E0836B.8080104@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <895DC5FE-882A-4661-B211-7033378A1258@comcast.net> > On Apr 2, 2017, at 12:51 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/01/2017 11:27 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> What do you do about boards with SMT components on *both* sides? I can't see how it would work with a toaster oven. > OK, this is going to be long. > > I do small-scale production of mostly motion control boards, but also some nuclear instrumentation. Mostly 0603 to 0805 passives and SOIC up to 0.5mm pitch QFP chips. I use a lot of FPGAs in 144 pin packages. > ... > > One of the tricks I found out very fast was the thermocouple doesn't absorb IR the way a board does, the first board I did came out warped like a potato chip and nearly black. It occurred the me to poke the thermocouple junction into a through-hole in the board, and then it all worked. I still have some slight problems with some areas of the oven running a bit cooler or hotter, so I have to tweak the peak temp setting sometimes to get all the boards soldered. I have a nice article about toaster oven SMD work. It's in German, via the PCB Pool website if I remember right. It mentions that problem. The solution picked in that article was to use a spare board (same or similar layout) as the thermocouple holder. But attaching to the actual board sounds good. paul From db at db.net Sun Apr 2 09:53:12 2017 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 10:53:12 -0400 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <298086a8-ce93-e85b-b251-16d63272a586@sydex.com> References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> <298086a8-ce93-e85b-b251-16d63272a586@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20170402145312.GA54183@night.db.net> On Sat, Apr 01, 2017 at 06:59:54PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 04/01/2017 07:01 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Before building my most recent project (which involves an > > unpleasantly small-pitched TSOP package housing multiple RS232 level > > converters) I asked experts at work (technicians who do a lot of fine > > detail soldering) about RoHS. > > > > The answer was very clear. If you must use that stuff because of > > regulations, that's one thing. If it's for your own use and the > > rules aren't applicable, don't be silly, use real solder. > > That goes for repairing things also. I owned a Volvo in the late 90s > that would develop strange electrical problems, such as the headlights > suddenly not working. The culprit was the Bosch relay modules, many of > which had small PCBs in them. Resoldering the PCBs with real solder did > the job until I sold the thing. The audio system is similarly > affected--if the audio suddenly drops out, grab the soldering iron. Read this: https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/reference/tech_papers/2011-nasa-gsfc-whisker-failure-app-sensor.pdf Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jkeller at gmx.ch Sun Apr 2 11:00:40 2017 From: jkeller at gmx.ch (=?utf-8?Q?J=C3=BCrgen_Keller?=) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 18:00:40 +0200 Subject: New HP42s clone almost available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7AC4EF9A-4111-4291-B5BC-5AA417215D5B@gmx.ch> A few months ago I had a prototype of this 42S clone in my hands. It looked and felt very promising! I?ll will buy one when it will be available. For those of you who are interested, please follow the discussions on hpmuseum.org forum. Jurgen > Am 10.03.2017 um 16:34 schrieb David Griffith via cctalk : > > > There's a Swiss guy who's made a name for himself by producing working replicas of classic HP calculators. See https://www.swissmicros.com/. I recently discovered his post on Youtube a video showing off an enhanced replica of my favorite HP calculator, the HP42s. This one is called the DM42. Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LK7JotR728 > > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Apr 2 12:21:37 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 13:21:37 -0400 Subject: New HP42s clone almost available Message-ID: <21af08.71e584b5.46128d21@aol.com> That is an undertaking indeed! I had not seen this.... Ed# Someone said the 12c was still being made? In a message dated 4/2/2017 9:00:53 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: A few months ago I had a prototype of this 42S clone in my hands. It looked and felt very promising! I?ll will buy one when it will be available. For those of you who are interested, please follow the discussions on hpmuseum.org forum. Jurgen > Am 10.03.2017 um 16:34 schrieb David Griffith via cctalk : > > > There's a Swiss guy who's made a name for himself by producing working replicas of classic HP calculators. See https://www.swissmicros.com/. I recently discovered his post on Youtube a video showing off an enhanced replica of my favorite HP calculator, the HP42s. This one is called the DM42. Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LK7JotR728 > > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 2 12:40:40 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 10:40:40 -0700 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <20170402145312.GA54183@night.db.net> References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> <298086a8-ce93-e85b-b251-16d63272a586@sydex.com> <20170402145312.GA54183@night.db.net> Message-ID: <55921cf7-8b63-b190-7827-6ab5a8676c31@sydex.com> On 04/02/2017 07:53 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > Read this: > > https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/reference/tech_papers/2011-nasa-gsfc-whisker-failure-app-sensor.pdf There are problems with the site's certificate, but I was able to wget the paper using the --no-check-certificate option. Tin whiskers were a big deal around 2005-2012 or so, and then the discussions suddenly dropped off. I'm not sure why. Here's a pretty good paper from about 2011 from Maxim that discusses the issue: https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/5250 It includes a bit on the danger (or lack thereof) of using lead-based solders in electronics. Quite frankly, I wonder why the RoHS people didn't mandate that lead flashing on roofs, lead canes in stained-glass windows and a host of other applications weren't banned. --Chuck From db at db.net Sun Apr 2 13:15:48 2017 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 14:15:48 -0400 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <55921cf7-8b63-b190-7827-6ab5a8676c31@sydex.com> References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> <298086a8-ce93-e85b-b251-16d63272a586@sydex.com> <20170402145312.GA54183@night.db.net> <55921cf7-8b63-b190-7827-6ab5a8676c31@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20170402181548.GA62405@night.db.net> On Sun, Apr 02, 2017 at 10:40:40AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 04/02/2017 07:53 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > > > Read this: > > > > https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/reference/tech_papers/2011-nasa-gsfc-whisker-failure-app-sensor.pdf > > There are problems with the site's certificate, but I was able to wget > the paper using the --no-check-certificate option. I also had to work around the stupid cert. ;) > > Tin whiskers were a big deal around 2005-2012 or so, and then the > discussions suddenly dropped off. I'm not sure why. I remember the story well. All the denials from the Toyota people and then this story about the whiskers in the controls. ugh. > > Here's a pretty good paper from about 2011 from Maxim that discusses the > issue: > > https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/5250 *nod* > > It includes a bit on the danger (or lack thereof) of using lead-based > solders in electronics. Quite frankly, I wonder why the RoHS people > didn't mandate that lead flashing on roofs, lead canes in stained-glass > windows and a host of other applications weren't banned. Not to mention lead in automobile weight balancers which is apparently banned in Europe. I guess it's because roofs, lead canes in stainless windows aren't recycled as quickly as electronics. I dearly wish they had have mandated proper lead recycling instead of an outright ban. > > --Chuck > > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From dave at 661.org Sun Apr 2 07:26:05 2017 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 12:26:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Mar 2017, Paul Koning via cctech wrote: >> On Mar 31, 2017, at 1:51 PM, allison via cctech wrote: >> >> On 03/31/2017 06:32 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm down to the last few P112 boards for sale and am pondering >>>> another run of them because demand is steady. One of the biggest >>>> challenges for the last run was getting the QFP-packaged 100-pin >>>> chips[1] in a state such that the pick-and-place robot wouldn't throw >>>> a fit about slight differences in lead position. The stuffing house >>>> insisted that I send them new chips. Pulls, though they looked >>>> perfectly okay to me, were not acceptable. Does anyone here know >>>> anything about pick-and-place robots using pulled 100-pin QFPs, >>>> particularly a stuffing house that can work with such chips and not >>>> screw up? >>>> >>>> [1] The now-obsolete super-io chips >>> >> Is this something that an experienced hand can manually do? > > Yes, definitely. 100 lead PQFP is perfectly doable if the lead pitch is > not insanely small. It takes a good fine tip soldering iron (mine is a > Weller with a PTS tip), fine solder (preferably real, i.e., 63/37 non-PC > solder). Liquid flux is a big help, as is a magnifier and bright light > or modest magnification microscope. > > If you have to do a couple of dozen boards this gets very tedious, but > for 5-ish it isn't a big deal. That's why I put this in the context of PNP robots rather than hand-soldering. My last run of P112 boards was 150 and I'm thinking of doing another 150 or maybe 200. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Apr 2 15:45:39 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 16:45:39 -0400 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <895DC5FE-882A-4661-B211-7033378A1258@comcast.net> References: <20170402024122.GA833@dbit.dbit.com> <3bc75e29-0132-fbc7-aa52-7997865c2c6c@sydex.com> <58E0836B.8080104@pico-systems.com> <895DC5FE-882A-4661-B211-7033378A1258@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 2, 2017, at 9:37 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I have a nice article about toaster oven SMD work. It's in German, via the PCB Pool website if I remember right. Here it is: https://www.beta-estore.com/download/rk/RK-10001_76.pdf paul From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Apr 2 18:27:49 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 16:27:49 -0700 Subject: Chip in first Apple AirPort WiFi In-Reply-To: <004f01d2ab0f$1d388c30$57a9a490$@computer.org> References: <004f01d2ab0f$1d388c30$57a9a490$@computer.org> Message-ID: If I recall correctly, as you've noted it was a WaveLAN / Orinoco silver card ('HERMES' chipset), connected via PCMCIA to a SBC based around an AMD ELAN SC400 - 33AC 486-like CPU. It had something like a couple megs of RAM and maybe 512K of FLASH. I don't know what OS it ran, if anything 'off the shelf' Why do you ask? On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Anyone know which Lucent semiconductor device or devices were used in the > first Apple AirPort, the Lucent board was " Lucent WaveLAN Silver PC Card" > but I'd like to know the devices used. > > Tom > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From dce at skynet.be Sun Apr 2 19:11:18 2017 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 02:11:18 +0200 Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and restarting In-Reply-To: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> Message-ID: After the mess, ... http://actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/mess01.jpg ... it was time to reorganize a cool place to continue this restoration :-) http://actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/calm01.jpg http://actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/calm02.jpg Without the schematics of the two power supplies, I decided to follow the tracks on the printed circuits boards from the area where I measured the collapsed regulated 5vdc, I start to check the components and try to understand the problem alone, I decided to check the 5 big capacitors this one is a little bit high but OK http://actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/capacheck2.jpg YES ! I finally found a dead one, hourra!! :-) http://actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/capacheck1.jpg A 23000?f 15VDC used in the filtering of the regulated 5vdc, but... finally no, unfortunately ... it was not the source of the power fail :-/ Tomorrow I continue my investigation and I will check the big capacitors of the other power supply in charge of the 15V which is monitored and possibly also the cause of the error message. Dominique From Mark at Misty.com Sun Apr 2 13:49:57 2017 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 14:49:57 -0400 Subject: KDJ11-B PDP 11/73 getting stuck in Exit standalone mode diag #56 Message-ID: <20170402184957.GA17668@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, I picked up an empty 4x8 Q-bus chassis at VCF-East this year. It's labelled "USDC CSS-823 Processor System" on the outside. It's not a DEC backplane, but the chassis is light aluminum, smaller and in some ways nicer than my pile of BA23s. It includes a switching power supply, LTC and q-bus termination, and I confirmed it's wired for Q22. I was hoping to transplant an 11/83 into it, since it will fit more comfortably in my work area. It has lit DCON/RUN/LTC/HALT buttons on the front pane. The etching on the backplane says something like "MDB Systems, Inc. East Orange, CA 92665" Unfortunately, I discovered slots are all wired Q22/Q22, no top ABCD (Q22/CD) PMI slots like a BA23. So, not good for an 11/83 CPU wired for PMI on slots C-D. So, I was hoping I could get my KDJ11-B (quad-wide 11/73) running in it. Upon power up or reset I get "Testing in progress. Please wait" on the serial console, and the LEDs get stuck on test 56. CTRL-C doesn't do anything yet, and my only options seem to be to hit reset, or if I hit the run/stop toggle, I can reset to the ODT prompt. This is with either just the KDJ11-B in the top slot, or with the addition of a suitably configured MSV11-QA in the next slot. If I turn off the LTC on the front panel, I get the expected Error 61 M8190 clock error, PC and register values, and options to re-run once or loop on test, so I know the LTC is working. I confirmed the KDJ11-B works fine in a BA23, getting past test 56. I also tried an 11/53 CPU here in the ABAB backplane and that gets past the self tests into dialog mode, but I really would like to get the KDJ11-B working in this chassis. I do see that a couple traces to the KDJ11-B C-D slots besides the Grant Continuity connections. I assume since the KDJ11-B has those Grant Continuity connections on slots C-D, it can run in a qbus/qbus Q22/Q22 quad Q-bus slot. I noticed the FP "RUN" lamp never comes on (and is not burned out), but maybe that's normal -- monitoring something on the bus that doesn't happen during power on self test. Does anyone here have suggestions about next steps in diagnosing this? https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_decpdp1111aintNov86_5833755/EK-1184A-MG-001_1184maint_Nov86_djvu.txt ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4.10.18 Exit Standalone Mode (Test 56) In the 22-bit mode, the exit standalone mode is checked by using the guaranteed timeout address of 17 760 000 to verify that the timeout logic works without hanging up the CPU. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Apr 2 19:39:40 2017 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 17:39:40 -0700 Subject: Items available in Sacramento, CA In-Reply-To: References: <20170402024122.GA833@dbit.dbit.com> <3bc75e29-0132-fbc7-aa52-7997865c2c6c@sydex.com> <58E0836B.8080104@pico-systems.com> <895DC5FE-882A-4661-B211-7033378A1258@comcast.net> Message-ID: I got this from Daniel. You can contact him directly if there's anything of interest. Daniel de Long I will be going there on Tuesday and could bring things back to the bay area if they are not too large. I will have a trailer. Bob ___________________________________________________________________________________ Bob, Equipment available: 1 IBM 557 Interpreter with manuals 1 MIA 557 Interpreter (IBM) with manuals 3 IBM 3178 with control and key board, $125 1 IBM 3274-90 2 IBM 3287-2 Printer 1 IBM 8513 Color Display 1 IBM 9518-001 Display 1 OTC 850 printer 1 Telex 287 Printer(IBM 3287 type) 1 Telex 8020 Model 266 Tape Drive 9 track 1600/6250 BPI with Controller, manuals $300 including 1 Telex 8020 tape drive (new freight damage-fell off lift gate). 1 Memorex 4303 line printer speed between 1200-1500 lines per minute 3 Control Data 9 track tape (Keystone) drives and PC controller card & cable, $150 each 1 Control Data 9 track tape drive without controller. 1 Sun Microsystems 9 track drive (Keystone) 2 Cipher 9 track tape drive, $250 each 1 Memorex 3693 Controller with Drive 3 Memorex 3690 Drive (IBM 3370) 2 Fujitsu M2485 (IBM 3480 type) tape drive 18 Track 1 Fujitsu M2485N CA01011-B063 36 Track with auto loader 1 Fujitsu 128 Track tape drive Thanks Dan -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Apr 2 20:00:15 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 18:00:15 -0700 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs In-Reply-To: <25333549-D989-4221-A908-AEBE54B858D3@fritzm.org> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A5D5@mail.bensene.com> <25333549-D989-4221-A908-AEBE54B858D3@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <3DDBF3F4-AFB2-4E28-A50B-0BE03C3510B2@fritzm.org> The first two packs I opened up for cleaning had foam around the inside of the hub. If it is decaying like the rest of the foam DEC used this seems like it could be a problem inside the packs? I haven?t seen this discussed before in any of the RK05 pack cleaning threads. Do folks usually leave this be, or remove it? cheers, ?FritzM. From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun Apr 2 20:18:36 2017 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 21:18:36 -0400 Subject: RIP: Daniel Bobrow Message-ID: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/nytimes/obituary.aspx?n=daniel-bobrow&pid=184794881 I think Ken Thompson paid him the greatest tribute in his Turing Award paper. *"I suspect that Daniel Bobrow would be here instead of me if he could not afford a PDP-10 and had had to "settle" for a PDP-11. * https://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Apr 2 20:51:13 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 20:51:13 -0500 Subject: Intellivision reset switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jules, I've been inside of one, but I just can't recall the arrangement for the reset button. But here are a couple of thoughts on the matter.. If the unit was otherwise working as-found, then it might be safe to say that whatever +was+ under that button +must+ have either disintegrated or fallen out of place, yet evidence should remain. In either case, you should find evidence - crumbled, gunky old foam, or shrapnel of a busted plastic / rubber spring. Point being, if it hasn't been opened up (to repair) in the past, everything should still be inside, at least in some form. But I'm guessing you found nothing at all? On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Can anyone who's been inside an Intellivision confirm that there's > supposed to be a little foam disc beneath the reset switch plate? > > I picked a system with a box of cartridges up earlier, half expecting the > machine to be dead (I was figuring it was going to be a blob of > easily-dead-after-so-many-years custom logic inside, but it's more like a > "real computer" in nature). It *was* dead, but the [initial, at least] > issue seems to be that the reset switch consists of a metal plate which is > supposed to make contact with the PCB when pressed - and presumably is held > away from the PCB by something when at rest. Except that there's no > "something" in this machine - with the machine the right way up, the plate > is free to contact the PCB, holding it in permanent reset. > > I'm guessing it was a blob of foam, which has deteriorated, but maybe it > was a metal spring, or a piece of u-shaped plastic etc. > > cheers > > Jules > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 2 20:58:00 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 18:58:00 -0700 Subject: KDJ11-B PDP 11/73 getting stuck in Exit standalone mode diag #56 In-Reply-To: <20170402184957.GA17668@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20170402184957.GA17668@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote: > > Unfortunately, I discovered slots are all wired Q22/Q22, no top ABCD > (Q22/CD) PMI slots like a BA23. So, not good for an 11/83 CPU wired > for PMI on slots C-D. > > So, I was hoping I could get my KDJ11-B (quad-wide 11/73) running in it. > Upon power up or reset I get "Testing in progress. Please wait" on > the serial console, and the LEDs get stuck on test 56. CTRL-C doesn't do > anything yet, and my only options seem to be to hit reset, or if I hit the > run/stop toggle, I can reset to the ODT prompt. This is with either just > the KDJ11-B in the top slot, or with the addition of a suitably configured > MSV11-QA in the next slot. If I turn off the LTC on the front panel, > I get the expected Error 61 M8190 clock error, PC and register values, > and options to re-run once or loop on test, so I know the LTC is working. > > I confirmed the KDJ11-B works fine in a BA23, getting past test 56. I also > tried an 11/53 CPU here in the ABAB backplane and that gets past the self > tests into dialog mode, but I really would like to get the KDJ11-B working > in this chassis. I do see that a couple traces to the KDJ11-B C-D slots > besides the Grant Continuity connections. I assume since the KDJ11-B > has those Grant Continuity connections on slots C-D, it can run in a > qbus/qbus Q22/Q22 quad Q-bus slot. > If you know the Q22/Q22 backplane is not good for an 11/83 CPU, why would you think it would be any different for a KDJ11-B 11/73 CPU? They are both M8190 boards and both have PMI signals on the CD half of the CPU board. Whether an M8190 KDJ11-B CPU board is called an 11/73, 11/83, or 11/84 is a boring discussion that has been rehashed here multiple times, the important thing is don't put one in a Q22/Q22 backplane and expect it to work correctly. -Glen From dave at 661.org Sun Apr 2 22:50:10 2017 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 03:50:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: New HP42s clone almost available In-Reply-To: <21af08.71e584b5.46128d21@aol.com> References: <21af08.71e584b5.46128d21@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Apr 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: > That is an undertaking indeed! I had not seen this.... Ed# > Someone said the 12c was still being made? The 12c never went out of production. It has been continuously updated. A lot of bankers, insurance people, etc still rely on them. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From Mark at Misty.com Sun Apr 2 13:49:57 2017 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 14:49:57 -0400 Subject: KDJ11-B PDP 11/73 getting stuck in Exit standalone mode diag #56 Message-ID: <20170402184957.GA17668@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, I picked up an empty 4x8 Q-bus chassis at VCF-East this year. It's labelled "USDC CSS-823 Processor System" on the outside. It's not a DEC backplane, but the chassis is light aluminum, smaller and in some ways nicer than my pile of BA23s. It includes a switching power supply, LTC and q-bus termination, and I confirmed it's wired for Q22. I was hoping to transplant an 11/83 into it, since it will fit more comfortably in my work area. It has lit DCON/RUN/LTC/HALT buttons on the front pane. The etching on the backplane says something like "MDB Systems, Inc. East Orange, CA 92665" Unfortunately, I discovered slots are all wired Q22/Q22, no top ABCD (Q22/CD) PMI slots like a BA23. So, not good for an 11/83 CPU wired for PMI on slots C-D. So, I was hoping I could get my KDJ11-B (quad-wide 11/73) running in it. Upon power up or reset I get "Testing in progress. Please wait" on the serial console, and the LEDs get stuck on test 56. CTRL-C doesn't do anything yet, and my only options seem to be to hit reset, or if I hit the run/stop toggle, I can reset to the ODT prompt. This is with either just the KDJ11-B in the top slot, or with the addition of a suitably configured MSV11-QA in the next slot. If I turn off the LTC on the front panel, I get the expected Error 61 M8190 clock error, PC and register values, and options to re-run once or loop on test, so I know the LTC is working. I confirmed the KDJ11-B works fine in a BA23, getting past test 56. I also tried an 11/53 CPU here in the ABAB backplane and that gets past the self tests into dialog mode, but I really would like to get the KDJ11-B working in this chassis. I do see that a couple traces to the KDJ11-B C-D slots besides the Grant Continuity connections. I assume since the KDJ11-B has those Grant Continuity connections on slots C-D, it can run in a qbus/qbus Q22/Q22 quad Q-bus slot. I noticed the FP "RUN" lamp never comes on (and is not burned out), but maybe that's normal -- monitoring something on the bus that doesn't happen during power on self test. Does anyone here have suggestions about next steps in diagnosing this? https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_decpdp1111aintNov86_5833755/EK-1184A-MG-001_1184maint_Nov86_djvu.txt ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4.10.18 Exit Standalone Mode (Test 56) In the 22-bit mode, the exit standalone mode is checked by using the guaranteed timeout address of 17 760 000 to verify that the timeout logic works without hanging up the CPU. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Apr 2 23:08:52 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 21:08:52 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series Message-ID: https://goo.gl/photos/m91e3UPSvN6tHUaS7 From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Apr 2 23:08:52 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 21:08:52 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series Message-ID: https://goo.gl/photos/m91e3UPSvN6tHUaS7 From microtechdart at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 01:16:28 2017 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 23:16:28 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pete, These tapes look to be in beautiful condition! Do you have any plans for reading or archiving them? Do you have any idea what format the data might have been written in? If interested, my site for reading/restoring QIC cartridges of this very vintage is at http://QICreader.com Let me know if I can be of any assistance. -AJ 2017-04-02 21:08 GMT-07:00 Pete Lancashire via cctalk : > https://goo.gl/photos/m91e3UPSvN6tHUaS7 > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From microtechdart at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 01:16:28 2017 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 23:16:28 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pete, These tapes look to be in beautiful condition! Do you have any plans for reading or archiving them? Do you have any idea what format the data might have been written in? If interested, my site for reading/restoring QIC cartridges of this very vintage is at http://QICreader.com Let me know if I can be of any assistance. -AJ 2017-04-02 21:08 GMT-07:00 Pete Lancashire via cctalk : > https://goo.gl/photos/m91e3UPSvN6tHUaS7 > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Apr 3 02:07:42 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 03:07:42 -0400 Subject: New HP42s clone almost available Message-ID: Good hear it stood the test of time! As an HP PC dealer in the 80s into early 90s we ha a calculator contract with HP also and... we sold the heck out of them! Is it the only one of the 10 series calcs that stayed in production? I have a set of the special demo versions that were mounted on a descriptive plaque that had been in the PHX HP Corp demo center... when they redid that they knew I Hoarded stuff and sent them over. For some of the 10 series that were still being used we had them on the display floor the others went into the the suites next to the business in the historical display. Ed# In a message dated 4/2/2017 8:50:16 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Sun, 2 Apr 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: > That is an undertaking indeed! I had not seen this.... Ed# > Someone said the 12c was still being made? The 12c never went out of production. It has been continuously updated. A lot of bankers, insurance people, etc still rely on them. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From microtechdart at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 01:37:39 2017 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 23:37:39 -0700 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi, Plamen & Al, I'm just catching up on some of these past threads involving QIC cartridges. What ever became of these Paragon tapes? Were you able to read them and archive the contents? Thanks all, -AJ http://QICreader.com On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully: > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff- > lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_ > 1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfd > w=w1920-h1200-rw-no > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtR > p6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > never mind, that was just for diagnostics > > > > the srm is described further down. it's a 386 running Sys V > > > > it is likely to be either one of their 310 series multibus boxes with > > a Wyse terminal, like the iPCS-2, which had a 286 or their 386 clone AT > > box > > > > On 11/5/16 8:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > there are no useful pictures in the brochures > > > > > > it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes > > > > > > > > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 03:56:30 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 10:56:30 +0200 Subject: IBM RT PC card. Message-ID: This card is sitting in a IBM RT PC. http://i.imgur.com/Adqnxr3.jpg?1 What kind of card is it? The WD1935 seems to be a SDLC chip. I cannot find any reference to the numbers P/N 6247874 (bottom layer etch) or the number on the sticker on the backside: 6247871G001 It is connected to an IBM marked dongle which has 4 BNC connectors. Is it a 3278-3279 emulation board? /Mattis From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Apr 3 04:05:10 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 02:05:10 -0700 Subject: IBM RT PC card. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <162cfb77-8cf4-3d5d-44f7-128ca17ae3a8@jwsss.com> On 4/3/2017 1:56 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > This card is sitting in a IBM RT PC. > > http://i.imgur.com/Adqnxr3.jpg?1 Possibly an RTIC card, with the 68000 on it. Might be a controller. The 3278 is the same as the PC/AT one. The 3278 doesn't use anything like a 68000 co-processor. thanks Jim > What kind of card is it? The WD1935 seems to be a SDLC chip. I cannot find > any reference to the numbers P/N 6247874 (bottom layer etch) or the number > on the sticker on the backside: 6247871G001 > > It is connected to an IBM marked dongle which has 4 BNC connectors. > > Is it a 3278-3279 emulation board? > > /Mattis > > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 05:19:33 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 12:19:33 +0200 Subject: HISTORY OF COMPUTER DESIGN: THE MOST INNOVATIVE AND UNCONVENTIONAL PCS EVER MADE Message-ID: This series of articles focuses mainly on physical design, of cases and so on, but there are some technical details in the articles too. Note that this is the landing page -- at the bottom of the page are links to other articles in the Inexhibit series, such as the Holborn 9100 and Olivetti Programma 101. https://www.inexhibit.com/specials/history-of-computer-design-the-most-innovative-and-unconventional-pcs-ever-made/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Mon Apr 3 04:57:40 2017 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 12:57:40 +0300 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hello AJ, Al, It took me a while, but I finally shipped the tapes to Raymond Stricklin. I also have SunOS 2.0 tapes: http://afterpeople.com/images/Image%20(30).tif http://afterpeople.com/images/Image%20(31).tif Al, check if these have been already images, if not I'll mail them to AJ. BR, Plamen On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:37 AM, AJ Palmgren via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, Plamen & Al, > > I'm just catching up on some of these past threads involving QIC > cartridges. What ever became of these Paragon tapes? Were you able to > read them and archive the contents? > > Thanks all, > -AJ > http://QICreader.com > > > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Plamen Mihaylov < > plamenspam at afterpeople.com> > wrote: > > > I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully: > > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff- > > lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no > > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_ > > 1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfd > > w=w1920-h1200-rw-no > > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtR > > p6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no > > > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > > > > never mind, that was just for diagnostics > > > > > > the srm is described further down. it's a 386 running Sys V > > > > > > it is likely to be either one of their 310 series multibus boxes with > > > a Wyse terminal, like the iPCS-2, which had a 286 or their 386 clone AT > > > box > > > > > > On 11/5/16 8:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > there are no useful pictures in the brochures > > > > > > > > it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 > nodes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 06:57:51 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 08:57:51 -0300 Subject: IBM RT PC card. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ba29c9d-77f0-15e8-ff71-76762c0b2aee@gmail.com> That is the adapter card for connection to a 5080 graphics system. See page 2-47 and 2-48 in manual at http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/6152/RT_PC_User_Setup_Guide.pdf The 5080 system was a high performance graphics processor originally hosted by 370 systems but adapters where made to host them on RTs and later on RS/6000. Paul On 2017-04-03 5:56 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > This card is sitting in a IBM RT PC. > > http://i.imgur.com/Adqnxr3.jpg?1 > > What kind of card is it? The WD1935 seems to be a SDLC chip. I cannot find > any reference to the numbers P/N 6247874 (bottom layer etch) or the number > on the sticker on the backside: 6247871G001 > > It is connected to an IBM marked dongle which has 4 BNC connectors. > > Is it a 3278-3279 emulation board? > > /Mattis From hachti at hachti.de Mon Apr 3 08:33:11 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:33:11 +0200 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6ca5d66b-f94b-5d77-d8b0-164e61cd3890@hachti.de> > Another thing to watch out for is the two halves of some if not all > were screwed together with self tapping screws. When you take > them apart bit of plastic may come out of the holes or fall off the > insides of the screw threads. That plastic if gets between the platter > and head will not be to the heads advantage. Ah, oh.... How should that get between the heads and the platter? It's nearly impossible to get something of substantial size into that gap. Look at the RK05 manual (and pack bag): It's the *really* small stuff that gets into the wrong place. Normal dust from the paper you used for cleaning (and from your working environment) is kicked off the platter by the head. Makes funny sounds. My procedure: Clean the disk, load it, manually visit the whole surface with the heads. If it crashes or clinging does not go away soon, reclean. If the disk has become silent and is running nicely, I give the heads a "quick brutal cleaning": Towel with IPA, between the heads, load heads onto the towel, move towel until heads clean. Must be done carefully... I once had an RC05 disk crashing. With an awful noise and a white stripe on the disk. After cleaning, both heads and disks were fully functional again. But I have also seen packs which look perfect but either keep making heavy sound or having data errors. Philipp From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Apr 3 07:53:36 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 05:53:36 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm going to see if the Tektronix museum is interested. And if so I'm sure they can make the software available for download. As to the format, Tek decided to do it their own way. It is a funky 2 track that has issues of its own. But your method of recovering the raw track data should work as a starting point. -pete On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 11:16 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Pete, > > These tapes look to be in beautiful condition! Do you have any plans for > reading or archiving them? > > Do you have any idea what format the data might have been written in? > > If interested, my site for reading/restoring QIC cartridges of this very > vintage is at > > http://QICreader.com > > Let me know if I can be of any assistance. > > -AJ > > 2017-04-02 21:08 GMT-07:00 Pete Lancashire via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > >: > > > https://goo.gl/photos/m91e3UPSvN6tHUaS7 > > > > > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > > From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Apr 3 07:53:36 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 05:53:36 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm going to see if the Tektronix museum is interested. And if so I'm sure they can make the software available for download. As to the format, Tek decided to do it their own way. It is a funky 2 track that has issues of its own. But your method of recovering the raw track data should work as a starting point. -pete On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 11:16 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Pete, > > These tapes look to be in beautiful condition! Do you have any plans for > reading or archiving them? > > Do you have any idea what format the data might have been written in? > > If interested, my site for reading/restoring QIC cartridges of this very > vintage is at > > http://QICreader.com > > Let me know if I can be of any assistance. > > -AJ > > 2017-04-02 21:08 GMT-07:00 Pete Lancashire via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > >: > > > https://goo.gl/photos/m91e3UPSvN6tHUaS7 > > > > > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > > From hachti at hachti.de Mon Apr 3 08:37:25 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:37:25 +0200 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <97d19eaf-2968-6828-dacd-c254225c99bf@hachti.de> On 01/05/2017 02:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Klemens Krause > > > We clean our RK05 disks in a very robust way: with cheap burning spirit > > and paper towels. ... We rubbed away thick black traces from occasional > > head crashes and we never removed the oxide coating with this torture. > > I am about to get a large batch of RK05 packs, so I am interested in the > details of this. > > First, what is 'burning spirit'? (I assume this is a straight translation > into English of some German term, but not knowing German... :-) After poking > around with Google for a while (hampered no little by the fact that it's the > name of a band, and also a term in World of Warcraft :-), it seems like it > might be acetone? In Germany, "burning spirit" is 96% ethanol + something that tastes awfully + some water. No other kinds of alcohol involved as far as I know. Some people are able to remove the awful taste in the lab. I usually use 100% IPA to wash my RK05 packs... I don't let acetone get near my stuff. It probably will remove the laquer. Nice prep if you want to apply a new coating to your disk. I do it like Klemens: Scrub, scrub, scrub. The black spots MUST be removed. Important not to lay the disk onto a hard or somehow grain contaminated surface while scrubbing. BTW: The RK05 manual explicitly warns from WATER on the disks. You should not spit (i.e. blow!) onto the surfaces as water is said to dissolve the coating. Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Mon Apr 3 08:48:38 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:48:38 +0200 Subject: Test message - what happened NOW to the mail system? Message-ID: <037c9877-893c-2e25-341e-1776a8f09bda@hachti.de> Hi, I just saw that mails from some people now arrive as desired (real sender, reply-to list), but some (e.g. myself) are still mangled with "xxx via cctalk" - did I miss a setting? Confused... Philipp From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 09:12:24 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 09:12:24 -0500 Subject: Intellivision reset switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/02/2017 08:51 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > If the unit was otherwise working as-found, then it might be safe to say > that whatever +was+ under that button +must+ have either disintegrated or > fallen out of place, yet evidence should remain. In either case, you should > find evidence - crumbled, gunky old foam, or shrapnel of a busted plastic / > rubber spring. Point being, if it hasn't been opened up (to repair) in the > past, everything should still be inside, at least in some form. Well, it seems that there isn't supposed to be anything! The metal plate is dished and is supposed to deform when the reset switch is pressed, making contact with the PCB, and then returning to original shape when the case switch is released. Except that - which is the case with mine - it seems that they have a habit of deforming slightly over time (and also coming loose, potentially shorting out various components and causing damage). Bending the tabs which are supposed to hold it against the PCB at least made it secure, but it still wouldn't return to original shape after being pressed. So, I figured I could hunt around for a replacement plate from a donor console, and *maybe* it would be OK, and *maybe* it would last for a few years. But in the end it seemed better to implement a more robust solution: it just so happened that a standard miniature microswitch (the type with four pins, dpst) would fit nicely onto the PCB, with the pins - after a little bending - sliding through the PCB slots which used to retain the original metal plate. A couple of short jump wires to nearby PCB pads later, and electrically it was perfect. The downside to this is that I had to shorten the stem on the plastic case part of the reset switch by ~ 1/8" to compensate for the increased height of the microswitch, and I really don't like "destructive" mods. However, I figure the rework will easily last the life of the console, and at least there's no risk of things coming apart and damaging the logic now. I suppose Mattel would have spent the extra few cents on a real switch anyway if the design life of the console had been more than a few years :) cheers Jules From Richard.Sheppard at telus.com Mon Apr 3 10:16:16 2017 From: Richard.Sheppard at telus.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:16:16 +0000 Subject: Intellivision reset switch Message-ID: <35cf2a0ea0d64454a0f8631591aac9dd@BTWP000243.corp.ads> > I'm guessing it was a blob of foam, which has deteriorated, but maybe it > was a metal spring, or a piece of u-shaped plastic etc. May depend on the model, but mine has a spring under the plastic reset button in the top of the case and one of those metal domed tactile switches on the PCB. Richard Sheppard From hachti at hachti.de Mon Apr 3 09:32:07 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 16:32:07 +0200 Subject: Test message - what happened NOW to the mail system? In-Reply-To: <037c9877-893c-2e25-341e-1776a8f09bda@hachti.de> References: <037c9877-893c-2e25-341e-1776a8f09bda@hachti.de> Message-ID: <32f47d23-a32a-7ddf-c33d-646229f04a61@hachti.de> On 04/03/2017 03:48 PM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I just saw that mails from some people now arrive as desired (real > sender, reply-to list), but some (e.g. myself) are still mangled with > "xxx via cctalk" - did I miss a setting? > > Confused... > > Philipp Wow, posting to cctech behaves differently now? Sorry for the noise, but I'm still confused. From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 12:26:46 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 10:26:46 -0700 Subject: Got a Sun 2/120, ISO Sun 2/3 monitor, Sun 2 keyboard, Sun 2 mouse Message-ID: Hi folks! I recently acquired a functional Sun 2/120. The framebuffer I have is switchable between TTL and ECL, so I can use either an Sun 2 or Sun 3 monitor, which I am looking for. I am also looking for a keyboard and mouse. If anyone on list has any of these items and would be willing to sell them to me, please contact me. I plan to completely restore the system. Thanks, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 3 13:18:31 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:18:31 -0700 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <26457b95-5cab-bfba-c8b6-a96524f9897b@sydex.com> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:37 AM, AJ Palmgren via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, Plamen & Al, > > I'm just catching up on some of these past threads involving QIC > cartridges. What ever became of these Paragon tapes? Were you able > to read them and archive the contents? I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" just seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz". If one is spending millions on a supercomputer, why would anyone want to put software for it on a QIC cart? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 3 13:23:27 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <26457b95-5cab-bfba-c8b6-a96524f9897b@sydex.com> References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> <26457b95-5cab-bfba-c8b6-a96524f9897b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" just > seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz". > > If one is spending millions on a supercomputer, why would anyone want to > put software for it on a QIC cart? Because it holds more than an Exatron Stringy Floppy? (the obvious second choice for high reliability storage) From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 3 13:44:22 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <26457b95-5cab-bfba-c8b6-a96524f9897b@sydex.com> References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> <26457b95-5cab-bfba-c8b6-a96524f9897b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:37 AM, AJ Palmgren via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi, Plamen & Al, >> >> I'm just catching up on some of these past threads involving QIC >> cartridges. What ever became of these Paragon tapes? Were you able >> to read them and archive the contents? > > > I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" just > seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz". > Dammit Chuck, not while I'm drinking coffee! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jrbenito at benito.qsl.br Mon Apr 3 11:00:18 2017 From: jrbenito at benito.qsl.br (Josenivaldo Benito Junior) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 13:00:18 -0300 Subject: [MicrosDIY-BR] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Taba, Apenas como sugest?o: https://documentation.onesignal.com/docs/blogger -- *Josenivaldo Benito Jr.* *PU2LBD* 2017-03-24 0:06 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Souza : > > Oba, post novo no blog! / New post on blog > > http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2017/03/ > consertando-um-vectrex-com-um-defeito.html > > --- > > > > > -- > -- > -------- MicrosDIY-BR -------- > Grupo sobre micro-controladores, programa??o ou qualquer outro assunto > t?cnico relacionado. Inform?tica de PC apenas quando relacionada ao assunto. > Veja mais em: http://microsdiybr.blogspot.com > >> N?o s?o bem vindas conversas de assuntos OFF-TOPIC e muito menos qualquer >>> ataque pessoal.<< >>> >> > --- Voc? est? recebendo esta mensagem porque se inscreveu no grupo > "MicrosDIY-BR" dos Grupos do Google. > Para cancelar inscri??o nesse grupo e parar de receber e-mails dele, envie > um e-mail para microsdiy-br+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > Para obter mais op??es, acesse https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Apr 3 13:25:06 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:25:06 -0700 Subject: Cleaning RK05 packs (Was: LGP-30 Memory Drum Update) In-Reply-To: <6ca5d66b-f94b-5d77-d8b0-164e61cd3890@hachti.de> References: <20170105132205.D255618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6ca5d66b-f94b-5d77-d8b0-164e61cd3890@hachti.de> Message-ID: >>Ah, oh.... How should that get between the heads and the platter? If it can happen it will. It did. I had saved up three or four cartridges for future repair. I was told such work should be done by (someone not so expensive) so off they went to one of the manufacturing repair techs. I was busy a few weeks later and did not do my usual look inside. Spun up the RK05 and data errors all over the place. Pulled the cart, did a head inspection and there was a not the usual black/dark brown streak on the head. Go get the box of Texwipes, etc and pull out the RK, but the head just did not feel smooth, if you have done such a cleaning a dozen times you get to know the feeling when you know things are flat again. So time to take the cartridge apart. Its screws needed very little torque, as in a couple pretty much fell out. Yep the inside was full of plastic shards. Later found out the tech used an air screwdriver to put the screws back. Anyway, I put a DO NOT USE sticker on the door and called DEC, yep .. the head had to be replaced. For years I kept it on my desk as a reminder that maybe the department who keep the compressors, pumps, wirewrap machines etc running was not a way to save money. Exact details somewhat fuzzy since this was like 1976 -pete On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 6:33 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Another thing to watch out for is the two halves of some if not all >> were screwed together with self tapping screws. When you take >> them apart bit of plastic may come out of the holes or fall off the >> insides of the screw threads. That plastic if gets between the platter >> and head will not be to the heads advantage. >> > Ah, oh.... How should that get between the heads and the platter? It's > nearly impossible to get something of substantial size into that gap. > Look at the RK05 manual (and pack bag): It's the *really* small stuff that > gets into the wrong place. > Normal dust from the paper you used for cleaning (and from your working > environment) is kicked off the platter by the head. Makes funny sounds. > > My procedure: Clean the disk, load it, manually visit the whole surface > with the heads. If it crashes or clinging does not go away soon, reclean. > If the disk has become silent and is running nicely, I give the heads a > "quick brutal cleaning": Towel with IPA, between the heads, load heads onto > the towel, move towel until heads clean. Must be done carefully... > > I once had an RC05 disk crashing. With an awful noise and a white stripe > on the disk. After cleaning, both heads and disks were fully functional > again. But I have also seen packs which look perfect but either keep making > heavy sound or having data errors. > > Philipp > > From sieler at allegro.com Mon Apr 3 13:48:10 2017 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:48:10 -0700 Subject: RIP: Daniel Bobrow Message-ID: Re: > From: Tony Aiuto > Subject: RIP: Daniel Bobrow > > http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/nytimes/obituary. > aspx?n=daniel-bobrow&pid=184794881 I worked with Danny for about a year, around 1974, sometime after UCSD put its B6700 onto the ARPAnet (we were something like the 35th computer). The AI community needed a BBNLISP with more addressing space than a DEC-10 could provide, so they came to the king of virtual addressing: the Burroughs. We got the contract to implement BBNLISP, and Danny came to oversee. I remember him typing on a terminal, linking UCSD to about 10 other computers on the ARPANET, finally linked back to us ... sending a message to himself. He was demonstrating the lag time each computer added :) IIRC, sometime during the project, BBNLISP was renamed INTERLISP. I still have the wonderful manual, with the great artwork on the cover. Warren Teitelman (the author) doesn't have his name on the cover. But, the bottom portion has a guy is operating a meat grinder, with the input being the letters of "reference manual" in random order, and the output being "reference manual". Danny explained that Warren Teitelman hadn't gotten the joke :) Danny was funny, quick witted, friendly ... RIP. Oh, UCSD LISP? About a week before we released it, DEC (or BBN?) had a breakthrough and increased the addressability of their virtual memory, obviating the need for our version :( Stan Sieler > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Apr 3 13:50:36 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 19:50:36 +0100 Subject: HISTORY OF COMPUTER DESIGN: THE MOST INNOVATIVE AND UNCONVENTIONAL PCS EVER MADE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 03/04/2017 11:19, "cctalk" wrote: > This series of articles focuses mainly on physical design, of cases > and so on, but there are some technical details in the articles too. > > Note that this is the landing page -- at the bottom of the page are > links to other articles in the Inexhibit series, such as the Holborn > 9100 and Olivetti Programma 101. > > https://www.inexhibit.com/specials/history-of-computer-design-the-most-innovat > ive-and-unconventional-pcs-ever-made/ I just love the design of the Holborn series of machines, first time I saw one I didn't believe it was a real machine... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 13:56:31 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 14:56:31 -0400 Subject: HISTORY OF COMPUTER DESIGN: THE MOST INNOVATIVE AND UNCONVENTIONAL PCS EVER MADE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 03/04/2017 11:19, "cctalk" wrote: > > > This series of articles focuses mainly on physical design, of cases > > and so on, but there are some technical details in the articles too. > > > > Note that this is the landing page -- at the bottom of the page are > > links to other articles in the Inexhibit series, such as the Holborn > > 9100 and Olivetti Programma 101. > > > > https://www.inexhibit.com/specials/history-of-computer- > design-the-most-innovat > > ive-and-unconventional-pcs-ever-made/ > > I just love the design of the Holborn series of machines, first time I saw > one I didn't believe it was a real machine... > > My vote goes to the Commodore CBM 256-80 (US) / B520 (Europe) http://vintagecomputer.net/Commodore/CBM_256-80/ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Apr 3 14:07:42 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 21:07:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <26457b95-5cab-bfba-c8b6-a96524f9897b@sydex.com> References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> <26457b95-5cab-bfba-c8b6-a96524f9897b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" just > seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz". > > If one is spending millions on a supercomputer, why would anyone want to > put software for it on a QIC cart? Well, I have two larger boxes filled with QIC tapes for our former NEC SX-4 (the original SW distribution and all patches, updates, etc.). Christian From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Apr 3 14:28:45 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 19:28:45 +0000 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> <26457b95-5cab-bfba-c8b6-a96524f9897b@sydex.com>, Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Monday, April 3, 2017 2:23 PM To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information On Mon, 3 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" just > seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz". > > If one is spending millions on a supercomputer, why would anyone want to > put software for it on a QIC cart? Because it holds more than an Exatron Stringy Floppy? (the obvious second choice for high reliability storage) __________________________________________ Don't bite that tongue plunged deeply into your cheek. The Exatron was at best a joke. Of course, better than most options of the time but still anythng but reliable. bill From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Apr 3 15:05:36 2017 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 13:05:36 -0700 Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and restarting In-Reply-To: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> Message-ID: <83f5003d-9e06-9c5a-0b61-a4f1c7752f71@mainecoon.com> On 4/1/17 12:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: [snip] > Anyway, the Nixdorf 620 is actually built by "Digital Computer Controls" > and after some researches it seems that it is a "DCC-116 E", the 17 slot > version of the "DCC-116" which Is a clone of the "Data General Nova 2/10". Er. My DCC-116 is more a clone of the mapped Nova 840 than the Nova 2, with the DCC/Keronix "64Kword" hack that gives up more than one level of indirect memory reference in exchange for having 16, rather than 15, bits of logical memory reference. [snip] > Here is the list of the boards I have with the references written on > them and their position in the machine: > > *17 HEX 0 ? 15 ENTREX INC 62 00 01842 002 REV A* > > *16 HEX 16 30 31 ENTREX INC 62 00 01842 002 REV A** > 15 OPTION 2 Empty** > 14 OPTION 1 Empty** > 13 PRINTER ENTREX INC SN598** > 12 TAPE 556/800 BPI 2433 LFI 213** > 11 TAPE 1600 BPI Empty** > 10 DISK 2456 00 MP-Kontroller D44an620 > 6393500215 2456 7 0 1577** > 09 COMMO Empty** > 08 SCANNER Scanner BD 2431 NCAG 54147.1.15 2431 02394** > 07 MEM 1609 0 7 02616** > 06 MEM Empty** > 05 MEM 1609 0 8 02367** > 04 MEM 1615 01 9 5596** > 03 TTY Empty** > 02 DO NOT USE Empty** > 01 C.P. 1509 05 4 04436* > > Concerning this I also ask a few questions: > > * > > What are the boards in slots 16 and 17 for? Packaging aside, this looks a lot like an Entrex 480 system, which was a key-to-disk/tape system: https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/historydisplays/FourthFloor/ReportsAndViewer/Reports/Entrex.pdf My guess is you're looking at bespoke 16-port multiplexers for talking to their terminals. > I do not have a COM card, does that mean that I could not attempt a > serial transmission (type rs232) with this actual setup ? IIRC the functionality of the basic I/O board normally found in slot three is subsumed into the CPU card of the DCC116, so you should be fine as long as you can find the signals on the back of the machine. > > * > > I have no idea how many kilobytes are present, apparently there are > two core memory cards (8kb each? 16Kb each?), And non-core RAM board. It's a word oriented machine, so memory is sized in KW, not KB. You can probably tell how big the boards are by looking at the physical address jumpers; core boards were typically 8KW, MOS boards were typically 16 or 32KW, depending on vintage. Hint: The more jumpers, the smaller the board. > Unfortunately, after a couple of hours, the "POWER FAIL" light has > started to light up. The problem here is that I have no schematics, it > is a modular power supply consisting of two elements: > > http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg > I have no idea how this machine packages things, but in jumbo-chassis Novas the lower PS generates five and 15 volt supplies, the top PS generates only five. The reason for this is that the 15 volt supply is only used by core memory boards and the memory bus is only available in the lower chassis. > One seems to be dedicated to the 15 VDC regulated, the second module is > in charge of the regulated 5VDC. Both elements have a "Power fail > module". When the machine is completely populated I now observe that the > + 5VDC collapses at +1,9VDC. Sounds like one of the +5V switchers is having issues. [snip] > > Another thing I noted during my measurements, where I should (I think) > measure 15V, I have 18V, looking at the documentation on the NOVA 2 (4 > slots), I observed according to the diagrams below That there is 18V but > before a zener diode and not at the level of connectors where there must > be 15VDC, should I warn me ? Would the diode be dead ? +/-5V and +15V but not -15V should be regulated. In the original DG power supply both five and 15 volt supplies were derived from a common +30V unregulated supply, but it's not clear that DCC followed that model. It may be helpful to know that the +15V supply is not regulated to 15V but temperature compensated downward with increasing temperature, such that at 55C it's closer to 14.4V; this is done to maintain margins on the core planes. The consequence is that you're probably looking at something having drifted in the voltage divider that feeds the voltage comparator or something having drifted in the temperature compensation stuff (if it's actually there) rather than a simple zener gone bad. > > I tried to join temporarily a secondary regulated power supply to > reinforce the + 5VDC so as to be sure that the problem did not come from > the logical part of the computer which checks these voltages and > triggers the Power Fail status. By coupling this external regulated > power supply, the computer restarts again, thus it is definitively the > power supply (or the comparator component(s) of the power fail module) /POWER FAIL is asserted by the power supply itself, as is MEM OK. > > If I removes all the boards (printer, core memory, scanner, disk > controller, etc.), the Power Fail light eventually goes out, I get again > the 5VDC, so the power has become "too weak" to power the computer when > it is fully populated. It's a switcher; look at the caps in the LC filter (downstream of the series pass transistor) that, together with the inductor, form the energy storage mechanism of the power supply; check the source supply as well. The fact that it eventually comes back suggests that the reference, comparator and pass device are probably functioning. [snip] > Notes that the Operating system I used to make these tests is a very > limited OS named DIDOS which was distributed by Nixdorf for his 620 > Serie. As the machine is a clone of DG NOVA 2/10, I wonder if the > computer is compatible with programs for the NOVA series of Data > General? So I wonder if the DCC-116 was compatible with the software for > NOVAs? Should be, as long as the machine isn't running in extended logical address mode (my DCC has a front panel switch to enable/disable this feature). > The other questions I ask myself at this point are the ways to transfer > softwares or bootable OS on this machine? I have no other disk pack on > another system but I have a nine track tape TU81 + connected to a VAX > 4000-605A under OpenVMS 6.2, and I can put this computer on my network. > Do you think there's a way to make a bootable tape for my NOVA 2 clone > with the Pertec 8840A from a VAX 4000 with a TU81+ ? Probably. There's nothing magic about DG tape images. Nice job on getting the machine to boot! Cheers, Chris -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 3 15:09:02 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 13:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HISTORY OF COMPUTER DESIGN: THE MOST INNOVATIVE AND UNCONVENTIONAL PCS EVER MADE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm sure that many (ARD?) are rolling their eyes at THAT concept of "computer design". On Mon, 3 Apr 2017, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > This series of articles focuses mainly on physical design, of cases > and so on, but there are some technical details in the articles too. OK, they link that iMac to "Brionvega Algol Portable TV", but not ADM3a. I remember when the SONY SMC? came out, being surprised at the use of obviously Italian design for the case. But then thinking that case design was an option that was not closely tied to the engineering, and that we would be likely to see cubes, pizza boxes, cylinders, etc. The Cray couch was lovely. I figured that there would be a lot of success at going after form factor of a pad of paper, and screen and keyboard folding together, and much less success (for a while longer) at building it into a pen (early attempts would be too bulky and taint the idea). And that someday we would see truly insane/innovative/impractical ideas such spheres or as shaping like a light bulb, or human head. But, like telephones or TVs, design has settled into a few specific forms. I was expecting more modular built into furniture designs. Without a modular form for easy replacement/upgrade, buying a desk with built-in computer, or computer with built-in desk would be too much of a lock-in. Closest that was successful has been desks with a keyboard shelf, and printer cabinet. When will 4x8 drywall substitution TV/monitors be around? What used to be called "mudding" for seamless joining of panels may be a bit more difficult. Howzbout a split keyboard built into the arms of my La-Z-Boy? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 3 15:29:32 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 13:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin via cctalk at "Apr 3, 17 11:23:27 am" Message-ID: <201704032029.v33KTWaf12648526@floodgap.com> > > I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" just > > seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz". > > > > If one is spending millions on a supercomputer, why would anyone want to > > put software for it on a QIC cart? > > Because it holds more than an Exatron Stringy Floppy? (the obvious second > choice for high reliability storage) Stringyfloppy shmingyfloppy. You need one of the unobtanium (with good reason) Texas Instruments CC-40 wafertape disasters, the obvious third choice for high reliability storage. I'm almost afraid to see if the one Jim Battle sent me a long time ago still works. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Famous, adj.: Conspicuously miserable. -- Ambrose Bierce ------------------ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 3 15:49:32 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 13:49:32 -0700 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <201704032029.v33KTWaf12648526@floodgap.com> References: <201704032029.v33KTWaf12648526@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 04/03/2017 01:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > I'm almost afraid to see if the one Jim Battle sent me a long time > ago still works. This points up to a common misunderstanding among vendors, I think. I question the use of QIC for *archival* storage; it certainly was less expensive than other comparably-sized media to deploy. For *distribution*, where the cart is essentially a short-term affair (until it can be copied to archival storage), it does make sense. --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 16:38:20 2017 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 16:38:20 -0500 Subject: Intellivision reset switch In-Reply-To: <35cf2a0ea0d64454a0f8631591aac9dd@BTWP000243.corp.ads> References: <35cf2a0ea0d64454a0f8631591aac9dd@BTWP000243.corp.ads> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 10:16 AM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > May depend on the model, but mine has a spring under the plastic reset > button in the top of the case and one of those metal domed tactile switches > on the PCB. > This matches my recollection of the system I had. The type of metal domed switch made famous by the Atari 2600 joysticks. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Apr 3 16:49:06 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 22:49:06 +0100 Subject: Intellivision reset switch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 03/04/2017 22:38, "cctalk" wrote: > On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 10:16 AM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> May depend on the model, but mine has a spring under the plastic reset >> button in the top of the case and one of those metal domed tactile switches >> on the PCB. >> > > This matches my recollection of the system I had. The type of metal domed > switch made famous by the Atari 2600 joysticks. I quickly read that and my brain said 'metal doomed switch', which I guess was also correct :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Apr 3 17:39:51 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 18:39:51 -0400 Subject: interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades Message-ID: <24f0b7.4ffe377c.46142937@aol.com> interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades https://www.wired.com/2017/04/russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades/?mbi d=nl_4317_p3&CNDID=42833909 enjoy! Ed# From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 3 18:15:29 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 16:15:29 -0700 Subject: interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades In-Reply-To: <24f0b7.4ffe377c.46142937@aol.com> References: <24f0b7.4ffe377c.46142937@aol.com> Message-ID: On 04/03/2017 03:39 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > > interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - > russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades > > https://www.wired.com/2017/04/russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades/?mbi > d=nl_4317_p3&CNDID=42833909 Indeed this: ?This is a field that?s not understanding its own history,? says Rid. ?It goes without saying that if you want to understand the present or the future, you have to understand the past.? --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 3 18:23:45 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 16:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades In-Reply-To: <24f0b7.4ffe377c.46142937@aol.com> from Ed via cctalk at "Apr 3, 17 06:39:51 pm" Message-ID: <201704032323.v33NNjhZ7209076@floodgap.com> > interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - > russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades I'm trying to identify the specific unit. It looks like an early PA-RISC, but even the enlargement doesn't show the model number clearly. > https://www.wired.com/2017/04/russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Apr 3 19:29:32 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 20:29:32 -0400 Subject: interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-d... Message-ID: <250c62.3957747c.461442ec@aol.com> due to it's infamy....I think we need one like it for the museums's collection! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 4/3/2017 4:23:47 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, spectre at floodgap.com writes: > interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - > russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades I'm trying to identify the specific unit. It looks like an early PA-RISC, but even the enlargement doesn't show the model number clearly. > https://www.wired.com/2017/04/russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 3 19:51:13 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 17:51:13 -0700 Subject: interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades In-Reply-To: <201704032323.v33NNjhZ7209076@floodgap.com> References: <201704032323.v33NNjhZ7209076@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <3E6BF637-BEA5-4DA5-B6CF-6A7A249A749C@aracnet.com> > On Apr 3, 2017, at 4:23 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > I'm trying to identify the specific unit. It looks like an early PA-RISC, > but even the enlargement doesn't show the model number clearly. I?m not sure what model it is, but it looks more like an early 90?s PA-RISC. The ones we were using in the late 90?s had a ?modern? look to them. That looks, to me, to be of a similar vintage to the HP 9000/750. Zane From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Apr 3 21:48:11 2017 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 19:48:11 -0700 Subject: RIP Dr. Kan Yabumoto Message-ID: <005201d2aced$e74dd4f0$b5e97ed0$@net> Hello All: I am not sure if this is "vintage" enough. However, Dr Kan Yabumoto (1948-2017) passed away after a long illness on 03-31-17. He was involved in the computer industry for many years after being a chemical engineer. He designed and programmed "Mad Planets", one of the "1001 Video Games You Must Play Before You Die". However, in this group though he may be better known for his work at his company Pixelab. Pixelab produced DatMan, XXCopy, and XXClone. I had the good fortune to become friends with Kan while seeking support for XXCopy. He was an intelligent and caring man and he will be missed. -Ali From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 22:20:00 2017 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 13:20:00 +1000 Subject: interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades In-Reply-To: <201704032323.v33NNjhZ7209076@floodgap.com> References: <201704032323.v33NNjhZ7209076@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <753BE9E2-D405-4A71-B1AA-A10319668DF2@gmail.com> It's an HP9000 E55. The HP Computer Museum even has one in our collection! David Collins Curator www.hpmusuem.net David Collins Client Engagement Manager Dimension Data Tel: +61 3 9626 0593 Mob: +61 424 785 131 e-mail: david.collins at dimensiondata.com (Sent from out of office) On 4 Apr 2017, at 9:23 am, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - >> russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades > > I'm trying to identify the specific unit. It looks like an early PA-RISC, > but even the enlargement doesn't show the model number clearly. > >> https://www.wired.com/2017/04/russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades/ > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From chrise at pobox.com Mon Apr 3 22:31:41 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 22:31:41 -0500 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <26457b95-5cab-bfba-c8b6-a96524f9897b@sydex.com> References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> <26457b95-5cab-bfba-c8b6-a96524f9897b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On April 3, 2017 1:18:31 PM CDT, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:37 AM, AJ Palmgren via cctech < >cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi, Plamen & Al, >> >> I'm just catching up on some of these past threads involving QIC >> cartridges. What ever became of these Paragon tapes? Were you able >> to read them and archive the contents? > > >I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" >just >seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz". > >If one is spending millions on a supercomputer, why would anyone want >to >put software for it on a QIC cart? > > >--Chuck The OS for the ETA -10 was installed from QIC tape because you put it in through an Apollo DN3000 or similar service unit... pretty sure that was THE way to get 'er done on that machine. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Apr 3 23:01:13 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 00:01:13 -0400 Subject: interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-d... Message-ID: <1d1d33.6040f410.46147489@aol.com> Awesome David! now I know what to look for! I like things with a story for our museum displays... the original one always best but next to it is 'one like it' example We do not have Tim Berners-Lee's NeXT cube... but we have one like it! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 4/3/2017 8:20:04 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, davidkcollins2 at gmail.com writes: It's an HP9000 E55. The HP Computer Museum even has one in our collection! David Collins Curator www.hpmusuem.net David Collins Client Engagement Manager Dimension Data Tel: +61 3 9626 0593 Mob: +61 424 785 131 e-mail: david.collins at dimensiondata.com (Sent from out of office) On 4 Apr 2017, at 9:23 am, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - >> russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades > > I'm trying to identify the specific unit. It looks like an early PA-RISC, > but even the enlargement doesn't show the model number clearly. > >> https://www.wired.com/2017/04/russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades/ > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From microtechdart at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 23:10:28 2017 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 21:10:28 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, yes. I'm fascinated by the stranger formats. Now I'm even more curious, now that you say it isn't the more common QIC-11 or QIC-24 formats. Do you know what specific hardware (tape drive models, formatter boards, etc) that was used to write or read these tapes with this format? On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 5:53 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > I'm going to see if the Tektronix museum is interested. And if so I'm sure > they can make the software available for download. As to the format, Tek > decided to do it their own way. It is a funky 2 track that has issues of > its own. But your method of recovering the raw track data should work as a > starting point. > > -pete > > On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 11:16 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Pete, >> >> These tapes look to be in beautiful condition! Do you have any plans for >> reading or archiving them? >> >> Do you have any idea what format the data might have been written in? >> >> If interested, my site for reading/restoring QIC cartridges of this very >> vintage is at >> >> http://QICreader.com >> >> Let me know if I can be of any assistance. >> >> -AJ >> >> 2017-04-02 21:08 GMT-07:00 Pete Lancashire via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >: >> >> > https://goo.gl/photos/m91e3UPSvN6tHUaS7 >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Thanks, >> AJ Palmgren >> http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck >> https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ >> >> > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From microtechdart at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 23:10:28 2017 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 21:10:28 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, yes. I'm fascinated by the stranger formats. Now I'm even more curious, now that you say it isn't the more common QIC-11 or QIC-24 formats. Do you know what specific hardware (tape drive models, formatter boards, etc) that was used to write or read these tapes with this format? On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 5:53 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > I'm going to see if the Tektronix museum is interested. And if so I'm sure > they can make the software available for download. As to the format, Tek > decided to do it their own way. It is a funky 2 track that has issues of > its own. But your method of recovering the raw track data should work as a > starting point. > > -pete > > On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 11:16 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Pete, >> >> These tapes look to be in beautiful condition! Do you have any plans for >> reading or archiving them? >> >> Do you have any idea what format the data might have been written in? >> >> If interested, my site for reading/restoring QIC cartridges of this very >> vintage is at >> >> http://QICreader.com >> >> Let me know if I can be of any assistance. >> >> -AJ >> >> 2017-04-02 21:08 GMT-07:00 Pete Lancashire via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >: >> >> > https://goo.gl/photos/m91e3UPSvN6tHUaS7 >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Thanks, >> AJ Palmgren >> http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck >> https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ >> >> > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 3 23:47:24 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 21:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades In-Reply-To: <753BE9E2-D405-4A71-B1AA-A10319668DF2@gmail.com> from David Collins at "Apr 4, 17 01:20:00 pm" Message-ID: <201704040447.v344lOuP8913030@floodgap.com> > It's an HP9000 E55. The HP Computer Museum even has one in our collection! Interesting. I guess it could be any of the E-class, though: OpenPA has a picture of an E35 that looks like a slightly closer match. I'm surprised it's recent enough to have a PA-7100; I would have agreed with Zane that it was an earlier type system. http://www.openpa.net/systems/hp-9000_e25_e35_e45_e55.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Use [Microsoft] IE and Passport and you can browse like it's 1984. -- /. --- From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 3 21:16:50 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 21:16:50 -0500 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <58E30212.5020600@pico-systems.com> On 04/02/2017 07:26 AM, David Griffith via cctech wrote: > > That's why I put this in the context of PNP robots rather > than hand-soldering. My last run of P112 boards was 150 > and I'm thinking of doing another 150 or maybe 200. > > Phew, I sure wouldn't want to hand solder 150 - 200 boards! Been there, done that, never want to do it again! There are machines that can do reasonable lead pitch spacing without vision, using mechanical alignment. My Philips CSM84 does 0.65mm lead pitch TQFPs quite well. One other detail is lead coplanarity. The leads from the manufacturer are formed AFTER plating to all sit on a flat surface. If the leads have varying solder thickness after removal, or are bent out of the seating plane by handling, that will also affect the ability to reflow solder them reliably. Jon From jfehlinger at comcast.net Mon Apr 3 21:40:07 2017 From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 22:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades Message-ID: <3732624.635453.1491273608739@connect.xfinity.com> Ed Sharpe wrote: > I'm trying to identify the specific unit. It looks like an early PA-RISC, > but even the enlargement doesn't show the model number clearly. The case matches HP-9000 Series 800 (F-class server) -- one of the lower-end models (807, F10; 817, F20; 837, F30). All based on PA-7000 32-bit CPU (PA-RISC version 1.1a, introduced 1991). http://muuseum.at.mt.ut.ee/kogu/077.html http://www.openpa.net/systems/hp-9000_series-800_nova.html http://www.openpa.net/pa-risc_processor_pa-7000.html PDFs of "Owner?s Guide to the HP 9000 8x7S Family" (1991) and "CE Handbook Series 9x7 and Model 8x7S Family" (1992) are downloadable via links at http://www.openpa.net/systems/hp-9000_series-800_nova.html . From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Apr 3 23:44:27 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 21:44:27 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/tektronix/405x/070-2065-00_4051_Service_Vol1_May77.pdf pages 6-37 to 6-41 The format and drive was all done in house. It was originally done on a horizontal external GPIB drive, the 4923. Tek was on of the first users of the cartridge. But for non technical reasons was the format used on the 4051 even though by then better designs had been adopted. Sadly not one of the good things that came out of Tek. But knowing the history all was not a technical decsision like in many large companies, and as usual a long story. On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:10 PM, AJ Palmgren wrote: > Ah, yes. I'm fascinated by the stranger formats. > > Now I'm even more curious, now that you say it isn't the more common > QIC-11 or QIC-24 formats. > > Do you know what specific hardware (tape drive models, formatter boards, > etc) that was used to write or read these tapes with this format? > > > > > On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 5:53 AM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > >> I'm going to see if the Tektronix museum is interested. And if so I'm >> sure they can make the software available for download. As to the format, >> Tek decided to do it their own way. It is a funky 2 track that has issues >> of its own. But your method of recovering the raw track data should work as >> a starting point. >> >> -pete >> >> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 11:16 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Pete, >>> >>> These tapes look to be in beautiful condition! Do you have any plans for >>> reading or archiving them? >>> >>> Do you have any idea what format the data might have been written in? >>> >>> If interested, my site for reading/restoring QIC cartridges of this very >>> vintage is at >>> >>> http://QICreader.com >>> >>> Let me know if I can be of any assistance. >>> >>> -AJ >>> >>> 2017-04-02 21:08 GMT-07:00 Pete Lancashire via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> >: >>> >>> > https://goo.gl/photos/m91e3UPSvN6tHUaS7 >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Thanks, >>> AJ Palmgren >>> http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck >>> https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 >>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ >>> >>> >> > > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > > From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Apr 3 23:44:27 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 21:44:27 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/tektronix/405x/070-2065-00_4051_Service_Vol1_May77.pdf pages 6-37 to 6-41 The format and drive was all done in house. It was originally done on a horizontal external GPIB drive, the 4923. Tek was on of the first users of the cartridge. But for non technical reasons was the format used on the 4051 even though by then better designs had been adopted. Sadly not one of the good things that came out of Tek. But knowing the history all was not a technical decsision like in many large companies, and as usual a long story. On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:10 PM, AJ Palmgren wrote: > Ah, yes. I'm fascinated by the stranger formats. > > Now I'm even more curious, now that you say it isn't the more common > QIC-11 or QIC-24 formats. > > Do you know what specific hardware (tape drive models, formatter boards, > etc) that was used to write or read these tapes with this format? > > > > > On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 5:53 AM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > >> I'm going to see if the Tektronix museum is interested. And if so I'm >> sure they can make the software available for download. As to the format, >> Tek decided to do it their own way. It is a funky 2 track that has issues >> of its own. But your method of recovering the raw track data should work as >> a starting point. >> >> -pete >> >> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 11:16 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Pete, >>> >>> These tapes look to be in beautiful condition! Do you have any plans for >>> reading or archiving them? >>> >>> Do you have any idea what format the data might have been written in? >>> >>> If interested, my site for reading/restoring QIC cartridges of this very >>> vintage is at >>> >>> http://QICreader.com >>> >>> Let me know if I can be of any assistance. >>> >>> -AJ >>> >>> 2017-04-02 21:08 GMT-07:00 Pete Lancashire via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> >: >>> >>> > https://goo.gl/photos/m91e3UPSvN6tHUaS7 >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Thanks, >>> AJ Palmgren >>> http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck >>> https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 >>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ >>> >>> >> > > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 4 00:05:50 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 22:05:50 -0700 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> <26457b95-5cab-bfba-c8b6-a96524f9897b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <36acc5df-a136-6827-2951-c0847ddaf10b@sydex.com> On 04/03/2017 08:31 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > The OS for the ETA -10 was installed from QIC tape because you put it > in through an Apollo DN3000 or similar service unit... pretty sure > that was THE way to get 'er done on that machine. Hmmm, on the STAR (CYBER 200), it was loaded from the MCU drum. But yeah, those stations were expensive, so I can understand using a commodity workstation. Did the Apollo ever have a 1/2" tape unit on it? --Chuck From bear at typewritten.org Tue Apr 4 00:11:23 2017 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 22:11:23 -0700 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <36acc5df-a136-6827-2951-c0847ddaf10b@sydex.com> References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> <26457b95-5cab-bfba-c8b6-a96524f9897b@sydex.com> <36acc5df-a136-6827-2951-c0847ddaf10b@sydex.com> Message-ID: Not commonly. ok bear. -- Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 3, 2017, at 22:05, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Did the Apollo ever have a 1/2" tape unit on it? > > --Chuck > From microtechdart at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 00:26:41 2017 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 22:26:41 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fascinating...thanks for sharing this! So the tape drive was integrated into the chassis hardware. Now that's proprietary. I don't even see evidence of a CRC or checksum in the documentation. Do you think that each record has one, and they just didn't document it? Anyway, very interesting, nice work saving these! -AJ From microtechdart at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 00:26:41 2017 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 22:26:41 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fascinating...thanks for sharing this! So the tape drive was integrated into the chassis hardware. Now that's proprietary. I don't even see evidence of a CRC or checksum in the documentation. Do you think that each record has one, and they just didn't document it? Anyway, very interesting, nice work saving these! -AJ From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 00:50:10 2017 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 15:50:10 +1000 Subject: interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades In-Reply-To: <201704040447.v344lOuP8913030@floodgap.com> References: <201704040447.v344lOuP8913030@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I clicked on the image in the report and it opened up a high def file which I could zoom in on. For some reason it won't do it now but I snipped the HP 9000 E55 badge image as a record. Not sure how to post it here. The terminal badge says it's a 700/96 terminal. It wasn't a guess! David Collins On 4 Apr 2017, at 2:47 pm, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> It's an HP9000 E55. The HP Computer Museum even has one in our collection! > > Interesting. I guess it could be any of the E-class, though: OpenPA has a > picture of an E35 that looks like a slightly closer match. I'm surprised > it's recent enough to have a PA-7100; I would have agreed with Zane that it > was an earlier type system. > > http://www.openpa.net/systems/hp-9000_e25_e35_e45_e55.html > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Use [Microsoft] IE and Passport and you can browse like it's 1984. -- /. --- From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 01:01:31 2017 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 16:01:31 +1000 Subject: interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades In-Reply-To: <201704040447.v344lOuP8913030@floodgap.com> References: <201704040447.v344lOuP8913030@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6244F373-8525-446E-8166-7F5CB01792E4@gmail.com> Try opening the following link in Chrome (not IE). https://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/DSC_0794.jpg That opened the full image for me. David Collins On 4 Apr 2017, at 2:47 pm, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> It's an HP9000 E55. The HP Computer Museum even has one in our collection! > > Interesting. I guess it could be any of the E-class, though: OpenPA has a > picture of an E35 that looks like a slightly closer match. I'm surprised > it's recent enough to have a PA-7100; I would have agreed with Zane that it > was an earlier type system. > > http://www.openpa.net/systems/hp-9000_e25_e35_e45_e55.html > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Use [Microsoft] IE and Passport and you can browse like it's 1984. -- /. --- From dce at skynet.be Tue Apr 4 09:09:23 2017 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 16:09:23 +0200 Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and restarting In-Reply-To: <83f5003d-9e06-9c5a-0b61-a4f1c7752f71@mainecoon.com> References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> <83f5003d-9e06-9c5a-0b61-a4f1c7752f71@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <8a53d351-ba42-da8b-48a7-4a791add792f@skynet.be> Many thanks for these detailed answers ! :) Indeed, I finally do not know exactly what Nova my DCC is the clone. Another specialist suggested that it was rather a clone of NOVA 1200? Note that in Nixdorf contracts for the 600 series, these machines were sometimes updated with a new CPU over the years of service. In the doubt here are pictures of the board in slot 01 dedicated to the CPU: http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/cpu01.jpg http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/cpu02.jpg http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/cpu03.jpg Do you have any idea what that is? Concerning the PSU I will analyze your suggestions. Concerning the memory, I analyzed more in detail, I think finally that all the memory is core type, 1 X 16KW (it is marked on it) and 2 X 8KW (according to the size of the core package in comparison with the 16KW board). Thus a total of 32KW. For transmission via serial port, unfortunately I do not have this "basic board" in slot 3 (TTY), it's empty. Can we still find board like this? Dominique > Er. My DCC-116 is more a clone of the mapped Nova 840 than the Nova 2, > with the DCC/Keronix "64Kword" hack that gives up more than one level of > indirect memory reference in exchange for having 16, rather than 15, > bits of logical memory reference. > > IIRC the functionality of the basic I/O board normally found in slot > three is subsumed into the CPU card of the DCC116, so you should be fine > as long as you can find the signals on the back of the machine. > > It's a word oriented machine, so memory is sized in KW, not KB. You can > probably tell how big the boards are by looking at the physical address > jumpers; core boards were typically 8KW, MOS boards were typically 16 or > 32KW, depending on vintage. Hint: The more jumpers, the smaller the board. > > I have no idea how this machine packages things, but in jumbo-chassis > Novas the lower PS generates five and 15 volt supplies, the top PS > generates only five. The reason for this is that the 15 volt supply is > only used by core memory boards and the memory bus is only available in > the lower chassis. > > Sounds like one of the +5V switchers is having issues. > +/-5V and +15V but not -15V should be regulated. In the original DG > power supply both five and 15 volt supplies were derived from a common > +30V unregulated supply, but it's not clear that DCC followed that > model. It may be helpful to know that the +15V supply is not regulated > to 15V but temperature compensated downward with increasing temperature, > such that at 55C it's closer to 14.4V; this is done to maintain margins > on the core planes. The consequence is that you're probably looking at > something having drifted in the voltage divider that feeds the voltage > comparator or something having drifted in the temperature compensation > stuff (if it's actually there) rather than a simple zener gone bad. > > /POWER FAIL is asserted by the power supply itself, as is MEM OK. > It's a switcher; look at the caps in the LC filter (downstream of the > series pass transistor) that, together with the inductor, form the > energy storage mechanism of the power supply; check the source supply as > well. The fact that it eventually comes back suggests that the > reference, comparator and pass device are probably functioning. > > > Should be, as long as the machine isn't running in extended logical > address mode (my DCC has a front panel switch to enable/disable this > feature). > > Nice job on getting the machine to boot! > Cheers, > Chris > From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 4 09:18:06 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 07:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interesting... hp-9000 in the news! - russian-hackers-used-backdoor-two-decades In-Reply-To: <6244F373-8525-446E-8166-7F5CB01792E4@gmail.com> from David Collins at "Apr 4, 17 04:01:31 pm" Message-ID: <201704041418.v34EI6D711731146@floodgap.com> > Try opening the following link in Chrome (not IE). > > https://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/DSC_0794.jpg > > That opened the full image for me. That link does come up in TenFourFox and you are right, it's an E55. Mystery solved. (please don't cc me on cctalk replies) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: E-mailsignaturebusters ----------------------------------------- From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Apr 4 09:38:22 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 07:38:22 -0700 Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and restarting In-Reply-To: <8a53d351-ba42-da8b-48a7-4a791add792f@skynet.be> References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> <83f5003d-9e06-9c5a-0b61-a4f1c7752f71@mainecoon.com> <8a53d351-ba42-da8b-48a7-4a791add792f@skynet.be> Message-ID: <5a5c7c06-9515-10f9-d28a-5810040a984f@jwsss.com> On 4/4/2017 7:09 AM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: > > > Concerning the PSU I will analyze your suggestions. > > Concerning the memory, I analyzed more in detail, I think finally that > all the memory is core type, 1 X 16KW (it is marked on it) and 2 X 8KW > (according to the size of the core package in comparison with the 16KW > board). Thus a total of 32KW. > > For transmission via serial port, unfortunately I do not have this > "basic board" in slot 3 (TTY), it's empty. Can we still find board > like this? The design is 4 x 74181, which is potentially a 16 bit processor. The 74181 is a common ALU for systems, can the number of bits of 74181 adders are frequently an indicator of the width of the CPU. The Serial port may be elsewhere. I'd look for RS232 level shifters (probably 1488 and 1489s) and a UART on other boards. You may be out of luck, but sometimes the serial may be in another area in systems. Another sign to follow are the silver cans with oscillators, as they can be for the system themselves, or for serial I/O. thanks Jim From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Apr 4 14:47:43 2017 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 12:47:43 -0700 Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and restarting In-Reply-To: <5a5c7c06-9515-10f9-d28a-5810040a984f@jwsss.com> References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be> <83f5003d-9e06-9c5a-0b61-a4f1c7752f71@mainecoon.com> <8a53d351-ba42-da8b-48a7-4a791add792f@skynet.be> <5a5c7c06-9515-10f9-d28a-5810040a984f@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <2246f280-03c5-06ad-ba35-1dace3e1874b@mainecoon.com> > On 4/4/2017 7:09 AM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: >> Concerning the memory, I analyzed more in detail, I think finally that >> all the memory is core type, 1 X 16KW (it is marked on it) and 2 X 8KW >> (according to the size of the core package in comparison with the 16KW >> board). Thus a total of 32KW. Yes, that would be a reasonable maximum configuration for this machine. I yanked the CPU board out of my DCC 116 literally for the first time, ever, which sent me down a rabbit hole. Yes, it's a 1200 clone, which surprised me -- but the 1980 date on the etch of your CPU is quite interesting. Turns out DCC literally stole the prints for the 1200 and used it as the basis of the D-116 (the also apparently ripped off the PDP-8 and PDP-11). At least in the case of the D-116 it was literally a case of building to DG's prints, so much so that the judge in the infringement case told DCC that had they actually reverse engineered the 1200 they would have prevailed, but that it was so obvious that they'd just done a punch of the machine that they had to hand the injunction to DG. Where this gets interesting is the timing. DG won the injunction in September 1975, and it so crippled DCC that DG ended up acquiring DCC and their product line in 1977 and eventually putting a stake in the heart of the product line at the end of the 70s. Does your CPU board have a DCC or DG copyright on it? Making it stranger is the prohibition on putting anything in slot two (mine has the same restriction). I'd have to look closely, but that suggests that while the design ripped off the 1200 CPU it ripped off the 800 backplane (the 800 CPU takes two slots, the 1200 only one, and thanks to the way the backplane is wired it's possible to run a 1200 CPU in an 800 chassis). Finding a basic I/O board shouldn't be difficult; you only need TTY (not reader or punch controls), and while it would be nice you probably don't need the RTC, either. Still, given the date of your machine the TTY functionality /may/ be on the CPU card itself. Is there a DB-9 connector somewhere on the rear bulkhead of the machine? -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Apr 4 15:55:14 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 16:55:14 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Bernie=20Appel, =20=E2=80=98Mr.=20RadioShack, =E2=80=99=20Di?= =?UTF-8?Q?es=20=20=20=20=20=20ushered=20in=20TRS=2080?= Message-ID: <1ec230.45da607b.46156232@aol.com> Bernie Appel, ?Mr. RadioShack,? Dies http://www.twice.com/news/people/bernie-appel-mr-radioshack-dies-85/64710 Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Apr 4 10:35:08 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:35:08 -0700 Subject: Fwd: from reddit Message-ID: https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/63b8bm/so_i_bought_an_abandoned_storage_unit_in_paradise/ No association etc with the person -pete From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Apr 4 10:36:59 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:36:59 -0700 Subject: from reddit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: List of stuff in this post https://www.reddit.com/r/computercollecting/comments/6395pt/so_i_bought_an_abandoned_storage_unit_in_paradise/ On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 8:35 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/ > 63b8bm/so_i_bought_an_abandoned_storage_unit_in_paradise/ > > No association etc with the person > > -pete > From tpisek at pobox.com Tue Apr 4 16:00:40 2017 From: tpisek at pobox.com (Todd Pisek) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 16:00:40 -0500 Subject: Old manuals (Univac, IBM, Burroughs, Teletype) Message-ID: <8C2A3474-E3D9-407F-A019-50E33C63DCB3@pobox.com> Spring cleaning has unearthed manuals I no longer need (not clear if I ever needed them ... ). Here's the list: Univac an/uyk-7 theory & diagrams Univac federal systems Technical Bulletins (1973) IBM 1620&1622 CE manuals & complete system diagrams (vol 1,2, & 3) IBM 3031 theory of ops diagrams (vol 1-5) IBM 129 card punch CE & ald diagrams IBM 3275 ald diagrams (2 vols) Burroughs Global Memory schematics & flow diagrams Teletype 33 teletypewriter (ksr & asr) technical manuals and parts list --- Todd From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 4 16:23:32 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 21:23:32 +0000 Subject: Old manuals (Univac, IBM, Burroughs, Teletype) In-Reply-To: <8C2A3474-E3D9-407F-A019-50E33C63DCB3@pobox.com> References: <8C2A3474-E3D9-407F-A019-50E33C63DCB3@pobox.com> Message-ID: Hi Todd, I have a Model 33, what do you want for those manuals? Thanks, Randy ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Todd Pisek via cctech Sent: Tuesday, April 4, 2017 2:00 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Old manuals (Univac, IBM, Burroughs, Teletype) Spring cleaning has unearthed manuals I no longer need (not clear if I ever needed them ... ). Here's the list: Univac an/uyk-7 theory & diagrams Univac federal systems Technical Bulletins (1973) IBM 1620&1622 CE manuals & complete system diagrams (vol 1,2, & 3) IBM 3031 theory of ops diagrams (vol 1-5) IBM 129 card punch CE & ald diagrams IBM 3275 ald diagrams (2 vols) Burroughs Global Memory schematics & flow diagrams Teletype 33 teletypewriter (ksr & asr) technical manuals and parts list --- Todd From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Apr 4 16:32:43 2017 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 17:32:43 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Bernie_Appel,__=E2=80=98Mr._RadioShack,_=E2=80=99_?= =?utf-8?Q?Dies______ushered_in_TRS_80?= In-Reply-To: <1ec230.45da607b.46156232@aol.com> References: <1ec230.45da607b.46156232@aol.com> Message-ID: I worked for Radio Shack from about 1982 to 1989 and I remember him from the internal RS publication "Intercom". Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 4, 2017, at 4:55 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > > Bernie Appel, ?Mr. RadioShack,? Dies > http://www.twice.com/news/people/bernie-appel-mr-radioshack-dies-85/64710 > > Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 16:43:44 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 14:43:44 -0700 Subject: Need help with a rescue need Chico / Paradise, California (can someone pick-up and hold?) Message-ID: If anyone would be willing to rescue and hold a small-ish (large desktop) machine near there for later pickup by me this summer, it would be much appreciated. I can pay you a small fee either in beer or American currency. Please let me know if you're willing to help coordinate a rescue. -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 16:46:50 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 14:46:50 -0700 Subject: from reddit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had worked out a deal with him for the Apollo, but I'm travelling so pick-up will be hard (but doable as a last resort), and he won't ship. If someone else plans to go up there, would you be willing to hold the Apollo for me for a couple months so I can drive down and grab it this summer? It will be among a few other systems of it's kind here, and I can netboot it over Apollo Token Ring. :^) On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > List of stuff in this post > > https://www.reddit.com/r/computercollecting/comments/ > 6395pt/so_i_bought_an_abandoned_storage_unit_in_paradise/ > > > > On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 8:35 AM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/ > > 63b8bm/so_i_bought_an_abandoned_storage_unit_in_paradise/ > > > > No association etc with the person > > > > -pete > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 4 17:35:38 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 18:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KDJ11-B PDP 11/73 getting stuck in Exit standalone mode diag #56 Message-ID: <20170404223538.7793918C0D9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Glen Slick > the Q22/Q22 backplane is not good for an 11/83 CPU ... M8190 boards and > both have PMI signals on the CD half of the CPU board. So I seem to recall hearing tales of PMI cards emitting smoke when plugged into a Q/Q/ backplane. That doesn't seem to have happened here: >> I confirmed the KDJ11-B works fine in a BA23, getting past test 56. So I wondered if his off-brand backplane didn't have +12V or -12V wired up - whatever it is that causes the damage. So I compared a list of PMI pins with a QBUS pinout, trying to see if it was the +12V or 12V that would be the problem. However, I don't see any PMI pins that conflict? (Well, some of them are ground, or +5V, but will that harm bus driver TTL?) Here's my list of PMI pins: CB1 PSSEL CD1 PUBMEM CE1 PBCYC CF1 PUBSYS CH1 PHBPAR CJ1 PSBFUL CK1 PLBPAR CM1 PRDSTB CP1 PBLKM CR1 PBSY CV1 PUBTMO DB1 PWTSTB DC1 PBYT DD1 PMAPE Anyone have any idea which pin(s) is the issue, when plugging a PMI card into a Q/Q slot? Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 4 19:19:41 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 00:19:41 +0000 Subject: KDJ11-B PDP 11/73 getting stuck in Exit standalone mode diag #56 In-Reply-To: <20170404223538.7793918C0D9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170404223538.7793918C0D9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Can you post a description of this box again? I had already deleted the earlier parts of the conversation. But it stuck in my mind. I hmay have the book on this box as I think it is the same as the couple I have. If so, there were two versions of the quad wide backplane. One is A-B-A-B all the way down. And one is A-B-A-B except for slots 6-7 which have C-D for use with the two board RL controller. Please post brand name and any model numbers yo have and I will dig thru my library. bill ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 4, 2017 6:35 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: KDJ11-B PDP 11/73 getting stuck in Exit standalone mode diag #56 > From: Glen Slick > the Q22/Q22 backplane is not good for an 11/83 CPU ... M8190 boards and > both have PMI signals on the CD half of the CPU board. So I seem to recall hearing tales of PMI cards emitting smoke when plugged into a Q/Q/ backplane. That doesn't seem to have happened here: >> I confirmed the KDJ11-B works fine in a BA23, getting past test 56. So I wondered if his off-brand backplane didn't have +12V or -12V wired up - whatever it is that causes the damage. So I compared a list of PMI pins with a QBUS pinout, trying to see if it was the +12V or 12V that would be the problem. However, I don't see any PMI pins that conflict? (Well, some of them are ground, or +5V, but will that harm bus driver TTL?) Here's my list of PMI pins: CB1 PSSEL CD1 PUBMEM CE1 PBCYC CF1 PUBSYS CH1 PHBPAR CJ1 PSBFUL CK1 PLBPAR CM1 PRDSTB CP1 PBLKM CR1 PBSY CV1 PUBTMO DB1 PWTSTB DC1 PBYT DD1 PMAPE Anyone have any idea which pin(s) is the issue, when plugging a PMI card into a Q/Q slot? Noel From chd at chdickman.com Tue Apr 4 19:21:13 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 20:21:13 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-14 Programmable Controller simulator Message-ID: I have written a PDP-14 simulator using the simh framework. Paired with a PDP-8 simulator as a front end it passes all the DEC diagnostics. A pointless effort, perhaps, because there isn't much that can be done with it without connecting it to something to control. In the course of research, I saw that there was an option to replace the braided core ROM that was standard, with a R/W core memory. It used a 4k memory module from the PDP-11 (MM11-E) with a special interface module in the PDP-14. I can find no documentation for the interface other than the wire-wrap list for the slot in the PDP-14 that it went into. From the signals available I have not been able to reverse engineer the instructions used to write the core or any detail really on how it might have been used. The option was MM14-A consisting of an interface (M7407), memory (MM11-E), chassis, and power supply. If anybody is still reading, I would be very interested in ANY information about it. -chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 4 19:35:03 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 20:35:03 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-14 Programmable Controller simulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56F001CF-1D88-421E-A6B5-ED3D27C80910@comcast.net> > On Apr 4, 2017, at 8:21 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > ... > In the course of research, I saw that there was an option to replace > the braided core ROM that was standard, ... Charles, I've been studying core ROM for a while now, and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of information. One interesting tidbit is that it appears -- but it's hard to confirm completely -- that it was invented by Ken Olsen (while at MIT Lincoln Labs). Do you have pointers to the PDP-14 rope memory documentation? paul From chd at chdickman.com Tue Apr 4 19:57:09 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 20:57:09 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-14 Programmable Controller simulator In-Reply-To: <56F001CF-1D88-421E-A6B5-ED3D27C80910@comcast.net> References: <56F001CF-1D88-421E-A6B5-ED3D27C80910@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 8:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 4, 2017, at 8:21 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> In the course of research, I saw that there was an option to replace >> the braided core ROM that was standard, ... > > Charles, > > I've been studying core ROM for a while now, and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of information. One interesting tidbit is that it appears -- but it's hard to confirm completely -- that it was invented by Ken Olsen (while at MIT Lincoln Labs). > > Do you have pointers to the PDP-14 rope memory documentation? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp14/DEC-14-HGZB-D_PDP-14_Maint_Man_1972.pdf Forgive me if I have used "braided core ROM" incorrectly, but how I understand the PDP-14 ROM, it was a network of wires threaded (braided) through ferrite pulse transformer cores in a way such that it was possible to address and read data. The current sources and sense amplifiers were similar to that used with core memory. >From what I can gather, never having seen one, the cores in the PDP-14 were actually quite large and fragile. There is information in the field service handbook (Bitsavers) that indicates that a ROM could be destroyed when the board was pulled from the chassis and there was a manufacturer change made to prevent the problem. -chuck From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Apr 4 16:57:09 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 14:57:09 -0700 Subject: Need help with a rescue need Chico / Paradise, California (can someone pick-up and hold?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One though, if no one can help, see what it would cost to rent the locker, or find out what the cheapest/smallest one is and have this guy move it, and you rent it. I've done that before. On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 2:43 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > If anyone would be willing to rescue and hold a small-ish (large desktop) > machine near there for later pickup by me this summer, it would be much > appreciated. I can pay you a small fee either in beer or American currency. > > Please let me know if you're willing to help coordinate a rescue. > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 4 18:27:37 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 19:27:37 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEJlcm5pZSBBcHBlbCwg4oCYTXIuIFJhZGlvU2hhY2ssIOKAmSBE?= =?UTF-8?Q?ies_ushered_in_TRS_80?= In-Reply-To: References: <1ec230.45da607b.46156232@aol.com> Message-ID: On 04/04/2017 05:32 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > I worked for Radio Shack from about 1982 to 1989 and I remember him from the internal RS publication "Intercom". > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 4, 2017, at 4:55 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: >> >> Bernie Appel, ?Mr. RadioShack,? Dies >> http://www.twice.com/news/people/bernie-appel-mr-radioshack-dies-85/64710 >> >> Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) > I got to know Bernie during the many trips to FT Worth in the very earliest days of TRS-80. He will be missed. Allison From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 22:57:18 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 23:57:18 -0400 Subject: Microcomputer and misc for sale Message-ID: Looking to make some space so i can work on some of the bigger gear i have sitting around here. All this stuff was stored in a climate controlled environment. I pick up interesting things whenever i can, be it at the scrapyard, flea markets, etc, that is where most of this came from. I worked in a computer shop for a while, a lot came from customers too, You would be supersized what people would drag in.Fix it up... interest fades, and then it starts looking like a museum. 3-4 commodore 64's. many 1541 disk drives, documentation, software. Datassete in tattered box. trs 80 coco - bent corner, works Vic20 1525 graphics plotter / printer. apple IIc - works - keyboard sticks sometimes commodore 64 1702 monitor zenith portable / luggable, complete, second drive sticks/ jams. Boots to dos. Boxed copy of ms dos 6.22 upgrade boxed borland C++ boxed masm like new in box tandy 1400 FD computer. excellent shape. Will not power on from wall jack, tapped into the 6v battery lead and it works fine, some kind of power jack issue. charging jack works intermittantly. Atari portfolio commmodore amiga 500 with keyboard. Never bothered with it. Has scsi controller, no hard drive. Ordered a floppy to boot it to workbench, it did so. God knows where that floppy is now though... Hp 9000 desktop with related peripherals. boots to hp basic. External enclosure, hard drive and floppy drive External enclosure, dual floppy drive. keyboard Tiny inkjet printer (all the above gear is uses HPIB connection. Plan was to get this all wired into my logic analyzer and other bench instruments, never bothered) This list may be updated in the next week or so as i find more, feel free to ask questions or inquire on pricing. Not looking to strike it rich, but not just giving it away either. Im shifting my focus to mainly DEC and SGI gear. I love picking up the microcomputer stuff, but i just do not need that many machines. I have a nice commodore 64, that should be enough for now. That all being said, if anyone has a vax 780 for sale in florida..... --Devin From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed Apr 5 03:05:49 2017 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 04:05:49 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-14 Programmable Controller simulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 April 2017 at 20:21, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > I have written a PDP-14 simulator using the simh framework. Paired > with a PDP-8 simulator as a front end it passes all the DEC > diagnostics. A pointless effort, perhaps, because there isn't much > that can be done with it without connecting it to something to > control. > Please release it! I/O access isn't too exceedingly complicated. I just finished up a university class on industrial controllers and networking, and we covered Modbus RTU and Modbus TCP. The latter protocol would prove to be pretty useful for this PDP-14 emulator. The emulator would act as one Modbus master and send out packets (in the Modbus TCP format) to a remote/distributed I/O unit of the user's own provision. Making it generic means it doesn't require specific hardware; making it Modbus protocol means it talks to a gigantic swath of hardware. So, please do submit it to be merged into the SIMH framework, it sounds like fun! (And sounds like practice for writing a Modbus TCP master? to me.) Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From dave at babcock-family.org Wed Apr 5 01:00:41 2017 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 23:00:41 -0700 Subject: Old manuals (Univac, IBM, Burroughs, Teletype) In-Reply-To: <4ced5b4e-70b7-4f57-ab75-b902848abf5b@babcock-family.org> References: <4ced5b4e-70b7-4f57-ab75-b902848abf5b@babcock-family.org> Message-ID: <51a88d30-2766-561e-f6ef-bd9bbddf4b21@babcock-family.org> Hello Todd, I am a volunteer at the Computer History Museum. I led the museum's full restoration of an IBM 1620 several years ago (http://s3data.computerhistory.org/core/core-2001-03.pdf). I am currently leading a new effort, the /IBM 1620 Jr./, to create an operational, hands-on exhibit using a real IBM 1620 front panel driven by a Raspberry Pi. As part of that effort, I'm writing a new, cycle-level simulator. The existing simulators, like SimH, are instruction-level and cannot drive the front panel. The simulator work could greatly benefit from the IBM 1620 & 1622 manuals and system diagrams that you have. I'd be happy to pay for any shipping costs. When this project is complete, the manuals will be donated to the museum to add to their collection of IBM 1620 documents. Thanks, Dave Babcock From cube1 at charter.net Wed Apr 5 07:06:45 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 08:06:45 -0400 Subject: Old manuals (Univac, IBM, Burroughs, Teletype) In-Reply-To: <51a88d30-2766-561e-f6ef-bd9bbddf4b21@babcock-family.org> References: <4ced5b4e-70b7-4f57-ab75-b902848abf5b@babcock-family.org> <51a88d30-2766-561e-f6ef-bd9bbddf4b21@babcock-family.org> Message-ID: > On Apr 5, 2017, at 02:00, Dave Babcock via cctech wrote: > > The simulator work could greatly benefit from the IBM 1620 & 1622 manuals and system diagrams that you have. > Connections to the console aside, the best materials for this would likely be the CE/FE instructional manuals. Those were invaluable to me when I wrote my 1410 cycle level simulator. They are also a huge guide to interpreting the drawings, though I did not use the drawings to write my simulator. You might reach out to others who actually have 1620 hardware directly. From steven at malikoff.com Wed Apr 5 08:27:07 2017 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 23:27:07 +1000 Subject: Info Needed: DATARAM DR-111 PDP-11 Unibus 16KW Core Memory Message-ID: Systems Glitch said > Looking for any information and/or documentation on DATARAM DR-111 (assembly > 61101) 16Kx16 core memory boards for the Unibus. I've got four in unknown > condition, one with a clearly destroyed 8T37. > I have a large format scanner with ADF and can digitize print sets if necessary. > Thanks, > Jonathan For anyone else that may be interested, I've scanned the full version of this manual that comprises the installation guide, description, system specifications, theory of operation, timing chart, full schematic and manifest. I believe there is a DR-111 document floating around that is the installation guide only, hence the reason for this new scan. You can find it at http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DATARAM_DR-111_core_memory_board.pdf It's about 6Mb. I have a stack of other docs to be done from my road trip to recover the FOX 2/10 last year, including the PDP-11/15 print set. Steve. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Apr 5 08:32:52 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 09:32:52 -0400 Subject: Info Needed: DATARAM DR-111 PDP-11 Unibus 16KW Core Memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Semi OT: I have an Inforex RAM controller with a DataRAM core daughterboard here: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/inforex/ It's not UNIBUS, not sure what this went to, something from the earlier 70's I rec'con. Maybe someone here can ID it. Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 5 09:33:27 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 10:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Info Needed: DATARAM DR-111 PDP-11 Unibus 16KW Core Memory Message-ID: <20170405143327.BA76E18C0F2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff > I've scanned the full version of this manual that comprises the > installation guide, description, system specifications, theory of > operation, timing chart, full schematic and manifest. Oh, wow! You get the Documentation Preservation Gold Star! A needed, and useful, manual. Thanks very much for doing this. Noel From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Apr 5 09:43:17 2017 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 09:43:17 -0500 Subject: SimH PDP-8 simulator plays music Message-ID: I suspected that I could somehow get some music out of the SimH PDP-8 simulator for a while now, if I could only make it run real time and toggle a GPIO pin fast enough say, on a Raspberry Pi. That may still be doable in the future, but I also had a suspicion that I could generate music not in real time. I finally got around to trying out my idea last night. A few lines were added to pdp8_cpu.c to spit out the elapsed instruction cycles every time a CAF instruction is executed, the default "noise" instruction in the MUSIC.PA program. That's all I did to the simulator. I then ran MUSIC with a given .MU file and watched as many integers are spit out onto the screen. These were copied and pasted into a new text file and saved. The rest of it is in a single C program that I cobbled together. It reads in this new text file and generates a series of pulses as an array of floats. Each interval is about 1.93 microseconds, which I calculated to be the average number of pulses for the music program to be "in tune" with A=440 Hz, plus or minus. This value is subject to change, particularly as the notes get higher in frequency, but only by perhaps 6% or so from my experiments. One detail to note is that per the recommendation of the MUSIC.PA manual, these pulses are extended to roughly 6 microseconds, or three time intervals in my program. This array of floats is then downsampled use libsamplerate to 44.1 kHz (from 1/1.93 microseconds, or roughly 520 kHz) and output to a canonical WAV file, 16-bit single channel. What do you know, it worked! Here's a sample: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_urDcyluX9c My code can be found here, for those interested: https://github.com/drovak/music Presumably, this technique could be used to generate music from any given computer simulator. Thanks, Kyle From spedraja at ono.com Wed Apr 5 09:54:23 2017 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 16:54:23 +0200 Subject: SimH PDP-8 simulator plays music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Impressive. At least for me :-0 Regards Sergio 2017-04-05 16:43 GMT+02:00 Kyle Owen via cctalk : > I suspected that I could somehow get some music out of the SimH PDP-8 > simulator for a while now, if I could only make it run real time and toggle > a GPIO pin fast enough say, on a Raspberry Pi. That may still be doable in > the future, but I also had a suspicion that I could generate music not in > real time. > > I finally got around to trying out my idea last night. A few lines were > added to pdp8_cpu.c to spit out the elapsed instruction cycles every time a > CAF instruction is executed, the default "noise" instruction in the MUSIC.PA > program. > > That's all I did to the simulator. I then ran MUSIC with a given .MU file > and watched as many integers are spit out onto the screen. These were > copied and pasted into a new text file and saved. > > The rest of it is in a single C program that I cobbled together. It reads > in this new text file and generates a series of pulses as an array of > floats. Each interval is about 1.93 microseconds, which I calculated to be > the average number of pulses for the music program to be "in tune" with > A=440 Hz, plus or minus. This value is subject to change, particularly as > the notes get higher in frequency, but only by perhaps 6% or so from my > experiments. One detail to note is that per the recommendation of the > MUSIC.PA manual, these pulses are extended to roughly 6 microseconds, or > three time intervals in my program. > > This array of floats is then downsampled use libsamplerate to 44.1 kHz > (from 1/1.93 microseconds, or roughly 520 kHz) and output to a canonical > WAV file, 16-bit single channel. > > What do you know, it worked! Here's a sample: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_urDcyluX9c > > My code can be found here, for those interested: > https://github.com/drovak/music > > Presumably, this technique could be used to generate music from any given > computer simulator. > > Thanks, > > Kyle From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Apr 5 10:02:55 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 15:02:55 +0000 Subject: KDJ11-B PDP 11/73 getting stuck in Exit standalone mode diag #56 In-Reply-To: <20170402184957.GA17668@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20170402184957.GA17668@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Mark G Thomas via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Sunday, April 2, 2017 2:49 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: KDJ11-B PDP 11/73 getting stuck in Exit standalone mode diag #56 Hi, I picked up an empty 4x8 Q-bus chassis at VCF-East this year. It's labelled "USDC CSS-823 Processor System" on the outside. It's not a DEC backplane, but the chassis is light aluminum, smaller and in some ways nicer than my pile of BA23s. It includes a switching power supply, LTC and q-bus termination, and I confirmed it's wired for Q22. I was hoping to transplant an 11/83 into it, since it will fit more comfortably in my work area. It has lit DCON/RUN/LTC/HALT buttons on the front pane. The etching on the backplane says something like "MDB Systems, Inc. East Orange, CA 92665" Unfortunately, I discovered slots are all wired Q22/Q22, no top ABCD (Q22/CD) PMI slots like a BA23. So, not good for an 11/83 CPU wired for PMI on slots C-D. So, I was hoping I could get my KDJ11-B (quad-wide 11/73) running in it. Upon power up or reset I get "Testing in progress. Please wait" on the serial console, and the LEDs get stuck on test 56. CTRL-C doesn't do anything yet, and my only options seem to be to hit reset, or if I hit the run/stop toggle, I can reset to the ODT prompt. This is with either just the KDJ11-B in the top slot, or with the addition of a suitably configured MSV11-QA in the next slot. If I turn off the LTC on the front panel, I get the expected Error 61 M8190 clock error, PC and register values, and options to re-run once or loop on test, so I know the LTC is working. I confirmed the KDJ11-B works fine in a BA23, getting past test 56. I also tried an 11/53 CPU here in the ABAB backplane and that gets past the self tests into dialog mode, but I really would like to get the KDJ11-B working in this chassis. I do see that a couple traces to the KDJ11-B C-D slots besides the Grant Continuity connections. I assume since the KDJ11-B has those Grant Continuity connections on slots C-D, it can run in a qbus/qbus Q22/Q22 quad Q-bus slot. I noticed the FP "RUN" lamp never comes on (and is not burned out), but maybe that's normal -- monitoring something on the bus that doesn't happen during power on self test. Does anyone here have suggestions about next steps in diagnosing this? https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_decpdp1111aintNov86_5833755/EK-1184A-MG-001_1184maint_Nov86_djvu.txt ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4.10.18 Exit Standalone Mode (Test 56) In the 22-bit mode, the exit standalone mode is checked by using the guaranteed timeout address of 17 760 000 to verify that the timeout logic works without hanging up the CPU. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE __________________________________________________ OK, I have the book on that. You need to determine which backplane you have. MLSI-BPA84-T Serpentine A-B-A-B MLSI-BPA84-A-T Serpentine except for slots 6 and 7. We'll ignore the MLSI-BPA82 as that's just a dual wide A-B. I will see if I can scan the book and send it to you but no promises how soon. It's pretty good sized and my scanning capabilities are primitive. bill From Mark at Misty.com Wed Apr 5 16:44:10 2017 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 17:44:10 -0400 Subject: KDJ11-B PDP 11/73 getting stuck in Exit standalone mode diag #56 In-Reply-To: References: <20170402184957.GA17668@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <20170405214410.GA2625@allie.home.misty.com> Hi Bill, > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Mark G Thomas via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] > Subject: KDJ11-B PDP 11/73 getting stuck in Exit standalone mode diag #56 > > Hi, > > I picked up an empty 4x8 Q-bus chassis at VCF-East this year. It's > labelled "USDC CSS-823 Processor System" on the outside. It's not a DEC > backplane, but the chassis is light aluminum, smaller and in some ways > nicer than my pile of BA23s. It includes a switching power supply, > LTC and q-bus termination, and I confirmed it's wired for Q22. I was > hoping to transplant an 11/83 into it, since it will fit more comfortably > in my work area. It has lit DCON/RUN/LTC/HALT buttons on the front pane. > The etching on the backplane says something like "MDB Systems, Inc. > East Orange, CA 92665" > > Unfortunately, I discovered slots are all wired Q22/Q22, no top ABCD > (Q22/CD) PMI slots like a BA23. So, not good for an 11/83 CPU wired > for PMI on slots C-D. > > So, I was hoping I could get my KDJ11-B (quad-wide 11/73) running in it. > Upon power up or reset I get "Testing in progress. Please wait" on > the serial console, and the LEDs get stuck on test 56. CTRL-C doesn't do > anything yet, and my only options seem to be to hit reset, or if I hit the > run/stop toggle, I can reset to the ODT prompt. This is with either just > the KDJ11-B in the top slot, or with the addition of a suitably configured > MSV11-QA in the next slot. If I turn off the LTC on the front panel, > I get the expected Error 61 M8190 clock error, PC and register values, > and options to re-run once or loop on test, so I know the LTC is working. > > I confirmed the KDJ11-B works fine in a BA23, getting past test 56. I also > tried an 11/53 CPU here in the ABAB backplane and that gets past the self > tests into dialog mode, but I really would like to get the KDJ11-B working > in this chassis. I do see that a couple traces to the KDJ11-B C-D slots > besides the Grant Continuity connections. I assume since the KDJ11-B > has those Grant Continuity connections on slots C-D, it can run in a > qbus/qbus Q22/Q22 quad Q-bus slot. > > I noticed the FP "RUN" lamp never comes on (and is not burned out), but maybe > that's normal -- monitoring something on the bus that doesn't happen during > power on self test. > > Does anyone here have suggestions about next steps in diagnosing this? > > https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_decpdp1111aintNov86_5833755/EK-1184A-MG-001_1184maint_Nov86_djvu.txt > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > 4.10.18 Exit Standalone Mode (Test 56) > > In the 22-bit mode, the exit standalone mode is checked by using the > guaranteed timeout address of 17 760 000 to verify that the timeout > logic works without hanging up the CPU. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, Apr 05, 2017 at 03:02:55PM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > OK, I have the book on that. You need to determine which backplane you have. > MLSI-BPA84-T Serpentine A-B-A-B > MLSI-BPA84-A-T Serpentine except for slots 6 and 7. > > We'll ignore the MLSI-BPA82 as that's just a dual wide A-B. > > I will see if I can scan the book and send it to you but no promises how > soon. It's pretty good sized and my scanning capabilities are primitive. > > bill I didn't realize the M8190 (11/73) was PMI, and really the same board as my 11/83. Fortunately, there was definitely no smoke, and the 11/73 still works fine in my BA23. I think the magic smoke problem might be more likely if someone plugs a Q22 board into PMI slots, due to the unfortunate wiring of those grant continuity connections. I cannot find anything like BPA84-anything on this backplane. There is a tiny whale emblem on the trace side of the board saying something like "MO__ Quick" under it, though faint, and bold easy to read "MLSI-CHASSIS #40040328" close to the end with the power terminals. I confirmed with a meter that all slots are A-B-A-B, including 6 and 7. I'm not sure I need the manual, unless it also includes schematics for the power supply, RTC, and front panel control electronics wiring. I'm now up and running with a dual-wide M8192 from a batch from a scrap board guy on ebay, and an M7195 borrowed from another system for testing. Next challenge is figuring out the jumpers on an M8043 for SLU console and seeing if I have or can find a working SCSI controller with a boot ROM on it, since I don't have another M7195 and they seem to go for high prices these days on e-bay when they do show up. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From useddec at gmail.com Wed Apr 5 20:33:26 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 20:33:26 -0500 Subject: SimH PDP-8 simulator plays music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very nice....I'm getting ready to rack a 2 bay 11/34 system, then I hopefully have time to finish off an 8E. I can't wait to have fun with it. I hadn't thought about music, but it sounds like fun. On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 9:54 AM, SPC via cctalk wrote: > Impressive. At least for me :-0 > > Regards > Sergio > > 2017-04-05 16:43 GMT+02:00 Kyle Owen via cctalk : > > I suspected that I could somehow get some music out of the SimH PDP-8 > > simulator for a while now, if I could only make it run real time and > toggle > > a GPIO pin fast enough say, on a Raspberry Pi. That may still be doable > in > > the future, but I also had a suspicion that I could generate music not in > > real time. > > > > I finally got around to trying out my idea last night. A few lines were > > added to pdp8_cpu.c to spit out the elapsed instruction cycles every > time a > > CAF instruction is executed, the default "noise" instruction in the > MUSIC.PA > > program. > > > > That's all I did to the simulator. I then ran MUSIC with a given .MU file > > and watched as many integers are spit out onto the screen. These were > > copied and pasted into a new text file and saved. > > > > The rest of it is in a single C program that I cobbled together. It reads > > in this new text file and generates a series of pulses as an array of > > floats. Each interval is about 1.93 microseconds, which I calculated to > be > > the average number of pulses for the music program to be "in tune" with > > A=440 Hz, plus or minus. This value is subject to change, particularly as > > the notes get higher in frequency, but only by perhaps 6% or so from my > > experiments. One detail to note is that per the recommendation of the > > MUSIC.PA manual, these pulses are extended to roughly 6 microseconds, or > > three time intervals in my program. > > > > This array of floats is then downsampled use libsamplerate to 44.1 kHz > > (from 1/1.93 microseconds, or roughly 520 kHz) and output to a canonical > > WAV file, 16-bit single channel. > > > > What do you know, it worked! Here's a sample: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_urDcyluX9c > > > > My code can be found here, for those interested: > > https://github.com/drovak/music > > > > Presumably, this technique could be used to generate music from any given > > computer simulator. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kyle > From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Wed Apr 5 21:07:11 2017 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 21:07:11 -0500 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: <20170315081109.GM15948@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315081109.GM15948@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <535B45F3-86DC-405C-9DB0-0778107FF942@gmail.com> On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:11 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 05:41:57PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> From: Dwight Kelvey >> >>> I need on of those. >> >> I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, of >> course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in >> the world? > > CHM has one: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X976.89 > > It used to be on display, perhaps it still is. > > /P It appears the external photos associated with the auction were pulled. Is the lucky winner on this list? Given the location, I was curious if this came from UNIVAC #24 (the last operating UNIVAC I). -C http://www.ebay.com/itm/Univac-vintage-large-computer-Parts-only-AS-IS-/162428766985 From trash80 at internode.on.net Wed Apr 5 21:43:09 2017 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 12:43:09 +1000 Subject: TRS-80 file extensions Message-ID: <000001d2ae7f$87a087d0$96e19770$@internode.on.net> I've been trying to put together a list of file extensions (and a one liner about that file extension) used by TRS-80's (including all the XZ-80 machines, CoCo's, the 8" machines, pocket computers, the 100's. MC-10's etc). Google has been my friend but has only turned up a few answers. I was wondering if anyone has seen something more comprehensive or even has something more comprehensive. Thank you!! Kevin Parker P: 0418 815 527 From useddec at gmail.com Wed Apr 5 21:44:20 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 21:44:20 -0500 Subject: DEC PDP-14 Programmable Controller simulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know if I have a complete PDP14 left or not, but I have relay racks, relays (some NIB), a VT14, tons of other parts, and a lot of documentation. Would any of this help your project? On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 3:05 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 4 April 2017 at 20:21, Charles Dickman via cctalk > wrote: > > I have written a PDP-14 simulator using the simh framework. Paired > > with a PDP-8 simulator as a front end it passes all the DEC > > diagnostics. A pointless effort, perhaps, because there isn't much > > that can be done with it without connecting it to something to > > control. > > > Please release it! I/O access isn't too exceedingly complicated. I > just finished up a university class on industrial controllers and > networking, and we covered Modbus RTU and Modbus TCP. The latter > protocol would prove to be pretty useful for this PDP-14 emulator. The > emulator would act as one Modbus master and send out packets (in the > Modbus TCP format) to a remote/distributed I/O unit of the user's own > provision. Making it generic means it doesn't require specific > hardware; making it Modbus protocol means it talks to a gigantic swath > of hardware. > > So, please do submit it to be merged into the SIMH framework, it > sounds like fun! (And sounds like practice for writing a Modbus TCP > master? to me.) > > Cheers, > Christian > -- > Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove > STCKON08DS0 > Contact information available upon request. > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Apr 5 22:01:17 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 23:01:17 -0400 Subject: Microcomputer and misc for sale Message-ID: Many people have been asking for details on the Hp gear. Here are some pictures of everything. https://postimg.org/gallery/wdgbt8lm/ I have powered up the machine and it boots up to hp basic. I never fired up any of the external drive enclosures or the printer. If someone wants to tell me how to test the external drives, I am more than willing to do so to verify that they are in working order. I have gotten several inquiries on the HP gear. Not sure how to handle many people wanting the same gear, now that i have some pictures up showing the model numbers, ill see if people are still interested and what they are willing to offer. --Devin From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Apr 5 22:17:09 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 23:17:09 -0400 Subject: Microcomputer and misc for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Last of the pictures for tonight. Pictures of the zenith luggable, apple IIc, and tandy 1400 box. Time is kinda limited,running out of time in the day. i can take further pictures or provide further info upon request. https://postimg.org/gallery/1cgafa2tm/a2c8e318/ --Devin On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 11:01 PM, devin davison wrote: > Many people have been asking for details on the Hp gear. Here are some > pictures of everything. > > https://postimg.org/gallery/wdgbt8lm/ > > I have powered up the machine and it boots up to hp basic. I never fired > up any of the external drive enclosures or the printer. If someone wants to > tell me how to test the external drives, I am more than willing to do so to > verify that they are in working order. > > I have gotten several inquiries on the HP gear. Not sure how to handle > many people wanting the same gear, now that i have some pictures up showing > the model numbers, ill see if people are still interested and what they are > willing to offer. > > --Devin > From isking at uw.edu Wed Apr 5 23:53:29 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 21:53:29 -0700 Subject: Microcomputer and misc for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, thanks for the photos. This confirms that this is gear I already have - if others are interested, I'll back away (although spares are always nice). Thanks -- Ian On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 8:01 PM, devin davison via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Many people have been asking for details on the Hp gear. Here are some > pictures of everything. > > https://postimg.org/gallery/wdgbt8lm/ > > I have powered up the machine and it boots up to hp basic. I never fired up > any of the external drive enclosures or the printer. If someone wants to > tell me how to test the external drives, I am more than willing to do so to > verify that they are in working order. > > I have gotten several inquiries on the HP gear. Not sure how to handle many > people wanting the same gear, now that i have some pictures up showing the > model numbers, ill see if people are still interested and what they are > willing to offer. > > --Devin > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 6 01:12:53 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 06:12:53 +0000 Subject: SimH PDP-8 simulator plays music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kudos! That is awesome Kyle, and sounds great. Have you had a look at Max B. Mathews MUSIC4BF? Old FORTRAN dusty deck I want to bring up, it is not realtime like yours, but calcs wavetable (or DAC) output for later processes. Anybody found the source for this? Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Kyle Owen via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 7:43 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: SimH PDP-8 simulator plays music I suspected that I could somehow get some music out of the SimH PDP-8 simulator for a while now, if I could only make it run real time and toggle a GPIO pin fast enough say, on a Raspberry Pi. That may still be doable in the future, but I also had a suspicion that I could generate music not in real time. I finally got around to trying out my idea last night. A few lines were added to pdp8_cpu.c to spit out the elapsed instruction cycles every time a CAF instruction is executed, the default "noise" instruction in the MUSIC.PA program. That's all I did to the simulator. I then ran MUSIC with a given .MU file and watched as many integers are spit out onto the screen. These were copied and pasted into a new text file and saved. The rest of it is in a single C program that I cobbled together. It reads in this new text file and generates a series of pulses as an array of floats. Each interval is about 1.93 microseconds, which I calculated to be the average number of pulses for the music program to be "in tune" with A=440 Hz, plus or minus. This value is subject to change, particularly as the notes get higher in frequency, but only by perhaps 6% or so from my experiments. One detail to note is that per the recommendation of the MUSIC.PA manual, these pulses are extended to roughly 6 microseconds, or three time intervals in my program. This array of floats is then downsampled use libsamplerate to 44.1 kHz (from 1/1.93 microseconds, or roughly 520 kHz) and output to a canonical WAV file, 16-bit single channel. What do you know, it worked! Here's a sample: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_urDcyluX9c [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVF.X4rar%2fthDhiKS0hGfDpAGA&pid=Api] Maple Leaf Rag - SimH PDP-8 www.youtube.com I made a hacked version of SimH's PDP-8 simulator which outputs timestamps every time a certain instruction is executed. When used with the music program, MU... My code can be found here, for those interested: https://github.com/drovak/music Presumably, this technique could be used to generate music from any given computer simulator. Thanks, Kyle From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 07:28:04 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 14:28:04 +0200 Subject: DOS-11/BATCH-11 manuals on Ebay Message-ID: http://www.ebay.com/itm/361940854169 One of them does not seems to be at bitsavers. The shipping is way to high to have them shipped to Sweden and scanned. Maybe someone in the US would care to buy and scan it? /Mattis From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 07:43:40 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 08:43:40 -0400 Subject: DOS-11/BATCH-11 manuals on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Placed a bid, i have access. To a good scanner, will scan and upload once it arrives . On Apr 6, 2017 8:28 AM, "Mattis Lind via cctalk" wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/361940854169 > > One of them does not seems to be at bitsavers. > > The shipping is way to high to have them shipped to Sweden and scanned. > Maybe someone in the US would care to buy and scan it? > > /Mattis > From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 12:05:57 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 19:05:57 +0200 Subject: DOS-11/BATCH-11 manuals on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-04-06 14:43 GMT+02:00 devin davison : > Placed a bid, i have access. To a good scanner, will scan and upload once > it arrives . > A bid has been placed. I hope that this is from someone here so that it might end up at bitsavers. I am not intending to start a bidding war. /Mattis > On Apr 6, 2017 8:28 AM, "Mattis Lind via cctalk" > wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/361940854169 >> >> One of them does not seems to be at bitsavers. >> >> The shipping is way to high to have them shipped to Sweden and scanned. >> Maybe someone in the US would care to buy and scan it? >> >> /Mattis >> > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 6 12:18:16 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 13:18:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DOS-11/BATCH-11 manuals on Ebay Message-ID: <20170406171816.3302318C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > One of them does not seems to be at bitsavers. That's on my list of items to get. I have a page-feed scanner, so will easily be able to scan this (although I'll have to get some instruction on exactly what incantation to use to Acrobat to turn the TIFF's into a PDF; apparently "PDF/A", supposedly for archival purposes, is apparently not in fact desirable for that). Noel From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 12:23:02 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 13:23:02 -0400 Subject: DOS-11/BATCH-11 manuals on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Did my reply not get through? I have a good scanner and placed the bid with the intent to put it on bitsavets. On Apr 6, 2017 1:05 PM, "Mattis Lind" wrote: > > > 2017-04-06 14:43 GMT+02:00 devin davison : > >> Placed a bid, i have access. To a good scanner, will scan and upload once >> it arrives . >> > > A bid has been placed. I hope that this is from someone here so that it > might end up at bitsavers. I am not intending to start a bidding war. > > /Mattis > > >> On Apr 6, 2017 8:28 AM, "Mattis Lind via cctalk" >> wrote: >> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/361940854169 >>> >>> One of them does not seems to be at bitsavers. >>> >>> The shipping is way to high to have them shipped to Sweden and scanned. >>> Maybe someone in the US would care to buy and scan it? >>> >>> /Mattis >>> >> > From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Apr 6 12:32:34 2017 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 17:32:34 +0000 Subject: New Jonathan Coulton text adventure/classic terminal music video Message-ID: Yes, I know the video was made by using ?retro-terminal? software http://www.secretgeometry.com/apps/cathode/? on modern hardware, but the spirit of the Infocom games is still there : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvVNxqosZ7s The spot halfway through where the screen matches the lyrics is really cool. I seem to recall the Infocom games could ?pace? with realtime delays in the text scrolling but that may be mis-remembering things. Tim. From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 12:59:51 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 19:59:51 +0200 Subject: How to refurbish plotter pens? In-Reply-To: References: <20170128183402.GA3177@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: A late follow up on this topic. I got my IBM 1627 running. Actually it is not mine, it belong to my father that got it used for his home built computer somewhere around 1977. It became a project that never was finished... There are still some simple drawings he did on how to interface it. http://i.imgur.com/8JK8wwO.jpg http://i.imgur.com/8YJA0Qb.jpg First thing I recognized was that the Mallory FP type capacitors in this one both measured below 1nF capacitance. A quite serious problem. It turned out that when I pulled them apart the positive electrode was subject to severe corrosion. It was simply cut off.. http://i.imgur.com/XUaQtPn.jpg http://i.imgur.com/nMLoFbN.jpg One of the stud mount 1N2547 rectifiers diodes was broken at off from its studmount in the middle of the insulating ceramic material. Since this type of rectifier was hard to find I replaced it with a modern part. Then on I replaced other electrolytics that all measured marginal (after all this machine is from 1967, 50 years old!). The two Mallory AC capacitors which are the run capacitors for the paper feed system were replaced as well. Not that they measure bad but I simply don't like oil filled caps from the sixties. They might contain PCB oil. And I didn't find a list that certified that Mallory RP-3301 is PCB free. Then the PSU was fine and all voltages measured well. On to the mechanics. The drum was working fine in both directions, but the carriage was not moving in either direction. Checking the electronics revealed that it tried to drive the stepper motor but nothing happened. It was stuck. The motor was removed and disassembled. There was a small gearbox on top of the stepper motor and it turned out that the motor axis was completely stuck. http://i.imgur.com/O043J9J.jpg By removing the last six screws it was possible to get the axis out by knocking on the axis with a screwdriver handle. It turned out that there was quite some rust in there. Cleaning, re-lubricating and new grease and it worked quite well. One note for others who repair these. Do not remove the big wheel that is driven by the stepper motor and drives the carriage. It is not necessary unless you plan to put some new grease in the gearbox. It is a small hell to get the carriage cable back into position again.. After this the plotter moved nicely in all directions and then it was time for serious testing with pens which bring us back to the topic of the thread. This plotter was supplied with non-pressurized pens. As far as I understand there are pen holders for both varieties of pens as well as felt pens. Mine are definitely non-pressurized. http://i.imgur.com/ZquhQMT.jpg As per Randys suggestion I put them into an ultrasonic cleaner and they become much cleaner. Then onto filling them which turned out to be a complex and a messy business.. >From what I understand there are different types of ink. The type of ink that are used for reservoir pens or Harry Potter feathers which is more liquid and then a thicker ink which is used in ballpoint pens. The former is sold in small bottles the latter is not sold except for in ballpoint refills. The next step is to try to extract ink from the ballpoint refill and use a ink refill syringe to push it into one of the cleaned pens. We'll see how that works out. The other option is to find new pens with the same diameter which can be cut into the correct length and tip dimensions. Maybe even plastic ones will work if they are stiff enough. In parallell I am working on the interfacing part. As far as the description in the manual interfacing is quite simple. Either negative going or positive going pulses, at least 10V amplitude and more the 4us long with less than 10us rise time. Source impedance less than 500 ohms. A ULN2004 or similar together with some simple AVR microcontroller will probably do it. /Mattis 2017-02-23 8:27 GMT+01:00 Randy Dawson : > Suggestion: drop them in an ultrasonic cleaner with solvent... > > > ________________________________ > From: cctech on behalf of David Gesswein < > djg at pdp8online.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 10:34 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: How to refurbish plotter pens? > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 03:51:49PM +0100, Mattis Lind wrote: > > I am about to get our IBM1627 (rebranded Calcomp 565) going but the pens > in > > the case is quite dry. What is the best method to refurbish those? What > is > > the best solvent to get the old ink out? What ink to refill with? > > > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-rp4vyPPYu1ZjVRbnlyczV4czQ > > > That looks like the unpressurized ballpoint. I never tried to refill mine. > Another option is making replacements. I found current ballpoint > refills and cut them down. I used a dremmel with cutoff disk. Watch for > splatters. I then stuck something in to remove 1/4" or so of the ink from > the end. Otherwise it will come out in the pen holder and make a mess. > The problem now is almost all refills use a larger diameter tip. I had to > look around some before I found the proper size. I did grind one larger > diameter one down by chucking it in a drill and grinding with the dremel. > > From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 12:59:51 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 19:59:51 +0200 Subject: How to refurbish plotter pens? In-Reply-To: References: <20170128183402.GA3177@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: A late follow up on this topic. I got my IBM 1627 running. Actually it is not mine, it belong to my father that got it used for his home built computer somewhere around 1977. It became a project that never was finished... There are still some simple drawings he did on how to interface it. http://i.imgur.com/8JK8wwO.jpg http://i.imgur.com/8YJA0Qb.jpg First thing I recognized was that the Mallory FP type capacitors in this one both measured below 1nF capacitance. A quite serious problem. It turned out that when I pulled them apart the positive electrode was subject to severe corrosion. It was simply cut off.. http://i.imgur.com/XUaQtPn.jpg http://i.imgur.com/nMLoFbN.jpg One of the stud mount 1N2547 rectifiers diodes was broken at off from its studmount in the middle of the insulating ceramic material. Since this type of rectifier was hard to find I replaced it with a modern part. Then on I replaced other electrolytics that all measured marginal (after all this machine is from 1967, 50 years old!). The two Mallory AC capacitors which are the run capacitors for the paper feed system were replaced as well. Not that they measure bad but I simply don't like oil filled caps from the sixties. They might contain PCB oil. And I didn't find a list that certified that Mallory RP-3301 is PCB free. Then the PSU was fine and all voltages measured well. On to the mechanics. The drum was working fine in both directions, but the carriage was not moving in either direction. Checking the electronics revealed that it tried to drive the stepper motor but nothing happened. It was stuck. The motor was removed and disassembled. There was a small gearbox on top of the stepper motor and it turned out that the motor axis was completely stuck. http://i.imgur.com/O043J9J.jpg By removing the last six screws it was possible to get the axis out by knocking on the axis with a screwdriver handle. It turned out that there was quite some rust in there. Cleaning, re-lubricating and new grease and it worked quite well. One note for others who repair these. Do not remove the big wheel that is driven by the stepper motor and drives the carriage. It is not necessary unless you plan to put some new grease in the gearbox. It is a small hell to get the carriage cable back into position again.. After this the plotter moved nicely in all directions and then it was time for serious testing with pens which bring us back to the topic of the thread. This plotter was supplied with non-pressurized pens. As far as I understand there are pen holders for both varieties of pens as well as felt pens. Mine are definitely non-pressurized. http://i.imgur.com/ZquhQMT.jpg As per Randys suggestion I put them into an ultrasonic cleaner and they become much cleaner. Then onto filling them which turned out to be a complex and a messy business.. >From what I understand there are different types of ink. The type of ink that are used for reservoir pens or Harry Potter feathers which is more liquid and then a thicker ink which is used in ballpoint pens. The former is sold in small bottles the latter is not sold except for in ballpoint refills. The next step is to try to extract ink from the ballpoint refill and use a ink refill syringe to push it into one of the cleaned pens. We'll see how that works out. The other option is to find new pens with the same diameter which can be cut into the correct length and tip dimensions. Maybe even plastic ones will work if they are stiff enough. In parallell I am working on the interfacing part. As far as the description in the manual interfacing is quite simple. Either negative going or positive going pulses, at least 10V amplitude and more the 4us long with less than 10us rise time. Source impedance less than 500 ohms. A ULN2004 or similar together with some simple AVR microcontroller will probably do it. /Mattis 2017-02-23 8:27 GMT+01:00 Randy Dawson : > Suggestion: drop them in an ultrasonic cleaner with solvent... > > > ________________________________ > From: cctech on behalf of David Gesswein < > djg at pdp8online.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 10:34 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: How to refurbish plotter pens? > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 03:51:49PM +0100, Mattis Lind wrote: > > I am about to get our IBM1627 (rebranded Calcomp 565) going but the pens > in > > the case is quite dry. What is the best method to refurbish those? What > is > > the best solvent to get the old ink out? What ink to refill with? > > > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-rp4vyPPYu1ZjVRbnlyczV4czQ > > > That looks like the unpressurized ballpoint. I never tried to refill mine. > Another option is making replacements. I found current ballpoint > refills and cut them down. I used a dremmel with cutoff disk. Watch for > splatters. I then stuck something in to remove 1/4" or so of the ink from > the end. Otherwise it will come out in the pen holder and make a mess. > The problem now is almost all refills use a larger diameter tip. I had to > look around some before I found the proper size. I did grind one larger > diameter one down by chucking it in a drill and grinding with the dremel. > > From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 13:03:51 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 20:03:51 +0200 Subject: DOS-11/BATCH-11 manuals on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-04-06 19:23 GMT+02:00 devin davison : > Did my reply not get through? I have a good scanner and placed the bid > with the intent to put it on bitsavets. > Sorry. I read it quickly on the commuter train and read it as that you asked me to bid on it and have it sent to you. My bad. Thanks for placing a bid and scanning it! I'll hope you get it! /Mattis > On Apr 6, 2017 1:05 PM, "Mattis Lind" wrote: > >> >> >> 2017-04-06 14:43 GMT+02:00 devin davison : >> >>> Placed a bid, i have access. To a good scanner, will scan and upload >>> once it arrives . >>> >> >> A bid has been placed. I hope that this is from someone here so that it >> might end up at bitsavers. I am not intending to start a bidding war. >> >> /Mattis >> >> >>> On Apr 6, 2017 8:28 AM, "Mattis Lind via cctalk" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/361940854169 >>>> >>>> One of them does not seems to be at bitsavers. >>>> >>>> The shipping is way to high to have them shipped to Sweden and scanned. >>>> Maybe someone in the US would care to buy and scan it? >>>> >>>> /Mattis >>>> >>> >> From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 6 13:07:15 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 14:07:15 -0400 Subject: How to refurbish plotter pens? In-Reply-To: References: <20170128183402.GA3177@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <6E0C11F9-8EA2-4FCA-B6E6-162369739259@comcast.net> > On Apr 6, 2017, at 1:59 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > A late follow up on this topic. > > I got my IBM 1627 running. ... Nice work! I remember a plotter (possibly a 1627 -- it was attached to a 360 model 44 in college) that by default used ballpoint pens but had an adapter to use Rapidograph (india ink) pens. Those are nice because they produce high quality plots and of course are readily refillable. paul From kirkbdavis at me.com Thu Apr 6 14:23:45 2017 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 12:23:45 -0700 Subject: Dec Stuff available in Sunnyvale CA In-Reply-To: <005e01d2798f$aa21c5f0$fe6551d0$@gmail.com> References: <005e01d2798f$aa21c5f0$fe6551d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0AAA1CE2-7F41-4A05-8F7F-01E9C1C9553A@me.com> I?m moving and need to downsize a bit. I have 2 of the DEC short racks. One has a 11/34 and the other is a uVax 3600 with a RA82 on top. I haven?t tried to power up the 34. The uVax works but the RA82 on top doesn?t. However I have several RA90?s that work with it. I saw a version of 4.3 BSD Quasijarus booted and running on it when I picked it up. Local pickup only. Preference given to some one that has a RL02 drive for trade. Otherwise a good home. Worst case - money (to quote Salam ?I don?t want eBay prices but I?ll take them). Kirk From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 18:23:04 2017 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 18:23:04 -0500 Subject: SimH PDP-8 simulator plays music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glad you guys have enjoyed it. I made SimH keep track of elapsed microseconds based on the instruction, which means I'm no longer having to use an average instruction time. This has improved the quality by a huge factor! Here's the new version of the Maple Leaf Rag for your listening pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGeycH7qUTU&t=26s The rest of the code has been uploaded to Github as before. I'm going to try to work out outputting real-time audio next; I think I can do it with libsamplerate and Pulse or the like; I'll have to see. Randy, I haven't looked at MUSIC4BF or much of Max's other programs, mainly because I don't have much experience with S/360 or FORTRAN. I did play with CSound very briefly a while back, which apparently was heavily based on his work. Got something to read the deck? My Documation card reader no longer powers up after moving, so I'll have to track that down. Hopefully it's just a bad breaker. Thanks, Kyle From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 6 20:17:22 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 18:17:22 -0700 Subject: SimH PDP-8 simulator plays music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <572465c4-8165-8fbc-5079-19558f319909@bitsavers.org> On 4/5/17 11:12 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > Have you had a look at Max B. Mathews MUSIC4BF? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSIC-N From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 6 20:21:45 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 18:21:45 -0700 Subject: SimH PDP-8 simulator plays music In-Reply-To: <572465c4-8165-8fbc-5079-19558f319909@bitsavers.org> References: <572465c4-8165-8fbc-5079-19558f319909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: https://www.media.mit.edu/events/EMS/bv-interview.html I had a summer gig in the early 80's at EMS helping Steve Haflich with some 68K hardware. I may have Unix MUSIC-11 on a pack somewhere. On 4/6/17 6:17 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/5/17 11:12 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > >> Have you had a look at Max B. Mathews MUSIC4BF? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSIC-N > > > > From cramcram at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 15:19:29 2017 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 13:19:29 -0700 Subject: Dec Stuff available in Sunnyvale CA In-Reply-To: <0AAA1CE2-7F41-4A05-8F7F-01E9C1C9553A@me.com> References: <005e01d2798f$aa21c5f0$fe6551d0$@gmail.com> <0AAA1CE2-7F41-4A05-8F7F-01E9C1C9553A@me.com> Message-ID: Kirk, I'd love to get a 11/34. Sorry, don't have a RL02 lying around. And I'm local (Los Gatos / Milpitas). Marc Howard On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:23 PM, Kirk Davis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I?m moving and need to downsize a bit. I have 2 of the DEC short racks. > One has a 11/34 and the other is a uVax 3600 with a RA82 on top. > > I haven?t tried to power up the 34. The uVax works but the RA82 on top > doesn?t. However I have several RA90?s that work with it. I saw a version of > 4.3 BSD Quasijarus booted and running on it when I picked it up. > > Local pickup only. Preference given to some one that has a RL02 drive for > trade. Otherwise a good home. Worst case - money (to quote Salam ?I don?t > want eBay prices but I?ll take them). > > Kirk > > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 13:47:27 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:47:27 -0700 Subject: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards (or dec T-2052 transformers) Message-ID: Hi all -- I recently got insanely lucky and scored a Straight-8 (S/N 14). It made it in nearly one piece from Ohio, but during transit, all of the G603 Memory Selector Matrix boards fell out. It looks like on early revisions, there was no bar in place to hold the boards in (or someone removed the bar from this one, but I see no indications that this was so). So while the rest of the flip chips were secured, I overlooked these in guiding the seller in prepping it for shipping. Two of the boards sustained pretty major damage, about a half a dozen of the little "gum drop" looking transformers (DEC refers to them as T-2052) broke off and most of them fell out and will never be found again. I realize it's a long shot, but does anyone have: - Any spare G603s (working or no, as long as the transformers are there) - Any spare T-2052s (or know of a source) - Any idea what the T-2052 *was* so I can try to replace them. I haven't found much detail as of yet. (The G603 schematic is here: http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Gxxx/G603/G603E.pdf ) Thanks, all! - Josh From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Apr 7 15:43:49 2017 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 22:43:49 +0200 Subject: How to refurbish plotter pens? (roller-ball pens) In-Reply-To: References: <20170128183402.GA3177@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <1491597829.29602.29.camel@agj.net> tor 2017-04-06 klockan 19:59 +0200 skrev Mattis Lind via cctalk: > A late follow up on this topic. > > I got my IBM 1627 running. Actually it is not mine, it belong to my father > that got it used for his home built computer somewhere around 1977. It > became a project that never was finished... There are still some simple > drawings he did on how to interface it. > > http://i.imgur.com/8JK8wwO.jpg > http://i.imgur.com/8YJA0Qb.jpg > > First thing I recognized was that the Mallory FP type capacitors in this > one both measured below 1nF capacitance. A quite serious problem. It turned > out that when I pulled them apart the positive electrode was subject to > severe corrosion. It was simply cut off.. > > http://i.imgur.com/XUaQtPn.jpg > http://i.imgur.com/nMLoFbN.jpg > > One of the stud mount 1N2547 rectifiers diodes was broken at off from its > studmount in the middle of the insulating ceramic material. Since this type > of rectifier was hard to find I replaced it with a modern part. > > Then on I replaced other electrolytics that all measured marginal (after > all this machine is from 1967, 50 years old!). The two Mallory AC > capacitors which are the run capacitors for the paper feed system were > replaced as well. Not that they measure bad but I simply don't like oil > filled caps from the sixties. They might contain PCB oil. And I didn't find > a list that certified that Mallory RP-3301 is PCB free. > > Then the PSU was fine and all voltages measured well. > > On to the mechanics. The drum was working fine in both directions, but the > carriage was not moving in either direction. Checking the electronics > revealed that it tried to drive the stepper motor but nothing happened. It > was stuck. > > The motor was removed and disassembled. There was a small gearbox on top of > the stepper motor and it turned out that the motor axis was completely > stuck. > > http://i.imgur.com/O043J9J.jpg > > By removing the last six screws it was possible to get the axis out by > knocking on the axis with a screwdriver handle. It turned out that there > was quite some rust in there. Cleaning, re-lubricating and new grease and > it worked quite well. > > One note for others who repair these. Do not remove the big wheel that is > driven by the stepper motor and drives the carriage. It is not necessary > unless you plan to put some new grease in the gearbox. It is a small hell > to get the carriage cable back into position again.. > > After this the plotter moved nicely in all directions and then it was time > for serious testing with pens which bring us back to the topic of the > thread. > > This plotter was supplied with non-pressurized pens. As far as I understand > there are pen holders for both varieties of pens as well as felt pens. Mine > are definitely non-pressurized. > > http://i.imgur.com/ZquhQMT.jpg > > As per Randys suggestion I put them into an ultrasonic cleaner and they > become much cleaner. Then onto filling them which turned out to be a > complex and a messy business.. > > From what I understand there are different types of ink. The type of ink > that are used for reservoir pens or Harry Potter feathers which is more > liquid and then a thicker ink which is used in ballpoint pens. The former > is sold in small bottles the latter is not sold except for in ballpoint > refills. > > The next step is to try to extract ink from the ballpoint refill and use a > ink refill syringe to push it into one of the cleaned pens. We'll see how > that works out. > Ballograf in M?lndal is nowadays the only roller-ball pen producer in sweden (Scandinavia too?) Maybe they would be amenable to sending a bottle of ink (they are world-famous for producings roller-ball pens with archive-longevity inks.) > The other option is to find new pens with the same diameter which can be > cut into the correct length and tip dimensions. Maybe even plastic ones > will work if they are stiff enough. > > In parallell I am working on the interfacing part. As far as the > description in the manual interfacing is quite simple. Either negative > going or positive going pulses, at least 10V amplitude and more the 4us > long with less than 10us rise time. Source impedance less than 500 ohms. > > A ULN2004 or similar together with some simple AVR microcontroller will > probably do it. > > /Mattis From dave at 661.org Sat Apr 8 01:15:08 2017 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 23:15:08 -0700 Subject: New Jonathan Coulton text adventure/classic terminal music video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003C1EF8-7D94-491E-8666-0CDCE5F0FF62@661.org> On April 6, 2017 10:32:34 AM PDT, "Shoppa, Tim via cctalk" wrote: >Yes, I know the video was made by using ?retro-terminal? software >http://www.secretgeometry.com/apps/cathode/? >on modern hardware, but the spirit of the Infocom games is still there >: > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvVNxqosZ7s > >The spot halfway through where the screen matches the lyrics is really >cool. > >I seem to recall the Infocom games could ?pace? with realtime delays in >the text scrolling but that may be mis-remembering things. > >Tim. The z-machine can do timed events, but not the kind of text timing shown in the video. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 01:35:15 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 23:35:15 -0700 Subject: IBM System/32 and System/3 Manuals available Message-ID: <9C38DA92-445A-42AD-944A-87F38416E910@gmail.com> Jay Herde, a viewer of my YouTube channel, contacted me to say that he has the following available that he would like to get rid of: IBM System/3 Disk Concepts and Planning Guide. IBM System/3 RPG II Disk File Processing Programmer's Guide. IBM System/3 Models 8 and 10 Disk System Control Programming Reference Manual. IBM System/32 Operator Training Student Text. IBM System/32 Displayed Messages Guide. He should be cc'ed above but I am not sure if his email we will make it through. Contact me off list if you are interested and I'll put you in touch with him. Marc From useddec at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 02:54:26 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 02:54:26 -0500 Subject: DEC wall plates, cables Message-ID: Your chance to use real DEC wall plates!!! While going through boxes of stuff in the basement, I found a few cases of DEC wall plates and Adirondack Wire and Cable AWC8100-14-W cables, both sealed in factory bags. There is no H # on the wall plates,but I recall seeing them in DEC sales catalog The cables look like RJ11 and I'll try to open one and measure it tomorrow. Contact me off list if you are interested in making an offer. Shipping from 61853, and as many as you want $10 S&H in US. From ed at groenenberg.net Sat Apr 8 03:46:09 2017 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 10:46:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DEC wall plates, cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34190.10.10.10.2.1491641169.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Hello Paul. What are these actually? I never have heard of them. If they are decorative and are a necessity in one's computer room, I would like one? Is it possible to have a picture? I really have no ida what they are. Regards, Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1Lk6141nvDKPxtCa5erfFyovsoJN2LKqNJ On Sat, April 8, 2017 09:54, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Your chance to use real DEC wall plates!!! > > While going through boxes of stuff in the basement, I found a few cases of > DEC wall plates and Adirondack Wire and Cable AWC8100-14-W cables, both > sealed in factory bags. > > There is no H # on the wall plates,but I recall seeing them in DEC sales > catalog > > The cables look like RJ11 and I'll try to open one and measure it > tomorrow. > > Contact me off list if you are interested in making an offer. Shipping > from > 61853, and as many as you want $10 S&H in US. > From w9gb at icloud.com Sat Apr 8 13:54:03 2017 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2017 13:54:03 -0500 Subject: DEC wall plates, cables Message-ID: <3E136416-A6CB-4843-BAEE-0C431BF3CBDE@icloud.com> Paul, Are these the "offset clip" RJ-12 6p6c modular jacks? https://www.showmecables.com/dec-rj12-6p6c-modular-plug-flat-cable greg chicago Sent from iPad Air From akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to Sun Apr 9 02:09:41 2017 From: akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2017 03:09:41 -0400 Subject: RIP: Daniel Bobrow In-Reply-To: (Stan Sieler via cctalk's message of "Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:48:10 -0700") References: Message-ID: <0qh91y6oqy.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> If anyone else has any Daniel Bobrow stories, please send them to me to pass along to his family; his daughter is collecting them. Stan Sieler via cctalk writes: > Re: > > >> From: Tony Aiuto >> Subject: RIP: Daniel Bobrow >> >> http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/nytimes/obituary. >> aspx?n=daniel-bobrow&pid=184794881 > > > I worked with Danny for about a year, around 1974, sometime after UCSD put > its B6700 onto the ARPAnet (we were something like the 35th computer). > > The AI community needed a BBNLISP with more addressing space than a DEC-10 > could provide, so they came to the king of virtual addressing: the > Burroughs. > We got the contract to implement BBNLISP, and Danny came to oversee. > > I remember him typing on a terminal, linking UCSD to about 10 other > computers > on the ARPANET, finally linked back to us ... sending a message to himself. > He was demonstrating the lag time each computer added :) > > IIRC, sometime during the project, BBNLISP was renamed INTERLISP. I still > have the wonderful manual, with the great artwork on the cover. Warren > Teitelman (the author) doesn't have his name on the cover. But, the bottom > portion has a guy is operating a meat grinder, with the input being the > letters of "reference manual" in random order, and the output being > "reference manual". Danny explained that Warren Teitelman hadn't gotten > the joke :) > > Danny was funny, quick witted, friendly ... RIP. > > Oh, UCSD LISP? About a week before we released it, DEC (or BBN?) had a > breakthrough and increased the addressability of their virtual memory, > obviating the need for our version :( > > Stan Sieler > >> >> From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Apr 9 02:58:22 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 00:58:22 -0700 Subject: DEC wall plates, cables In-Reply-To: <3E136416-A6CB-4843-BAEE-0C431BF3CBDE@icloud.com> References: <3E136416-A6CB-4843-BAEE-0C431BF3CBDE@icloud.com> Message-ID: <5f5d6261-e6e9-9169-1556-e029b78b6924@jwsss.com> Here is the connector it has to go into. I found three other cable sites with the identical page you shared (but came up much more quickly). Certainly looks like MMJ to me. that was what I searched for as well. http://www.pacificcable.com/photos/PT-J250-6DEC.jpg thanks jim On 4/8/2017 11:54 AM, Gregory Beat via cctalk wrote: > Paul, > > Are these the "offset clip" RJ-12 6p6c modular jacks? > https://www.showmecables.com/dec-rj12-6p6c-modular-plug-flat-cable > > greg > chicago > Sent from iPad Air > > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 08:56:47 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 09:56:47 -0400 Subject: DEC wall plates, cables In-Reply-To: <5f5d6261-e6e9-9169-1556-e029b78b6924@jwsss.com> References: <3E136416-A6CB-4843-BAEE-0C431BF3CBDE@icloud.com> <5f5d6261-e6e9-9169-1556-e029b78b6924@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20170409095647.49da0b4f09f5f2efd766ac24@gmail.com> > Certainly looks like MMJ to me. that was what I searched for as well. If they're MMJ, I'd be interested in wall plates. I've got a few systems that use it, plus I recently picked up a DECHub 90, including two terminal server modules, which of course use MMJ. Thanks, Jonathan From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 11:21:17 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 12:21:17 -0400 Subject: IBM AS400 questions Message-ID: Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 model 170. I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a password and i could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into the machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to back up the machine. I have a couple of tapes. I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to reinstall and still have a licenced install. I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV command to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a similar command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are installed, cpu and memory details, etc. Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want to get the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can reinstall the os and it have its license. --Devin From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 15:17:08 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 17:17:08 -0300 Subject: IBM AS400 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15d92079-0592-dbc8-239a-d46ad88f5d0b@gmail.com> Devin, The backup command is 'savsys'. The commands on on AS/400 are usually three letter abbreviations for in the command mashed together savsys = 'save system' or 'work with user profiles' is 'WRKUSRPRF' and the shutdown command 'Power Down System' is 'PWRDWNSYS'. If you type in the command and press PF4 it will open a menu where you can fill in the options for the command, once you get used to the commands you can type the commands with options right on the command line for instance the command to shutdown and power off is 'pwrdwnsys *immed restart(*no)' this is permanently burned into my brain from back in the days when AS/400 was still in development and the OS was running on S/38, but was a bit shaky and prompting commands would crash the system so we learned the commands with options. Since this is a 170 it probably has a QIC or 8mm tape under the covers and the resource name for it is likely 'TAP01' savsys will by default create a bootable tape that can be used to restore the OS. You may want to test booting from the tape you created by changing the IPL tpye on the operator panel from the usual "B" to "D". The D mode IPL specifies booting from an alternate IPL device which is normall tape or CDROM. You may not be aware that you cannot just throw in any SCSI disk, the disks have to be the specific disks that are blessed for use in an AS/400. A quick google came up with a site http://www.ibmfiles.com/pages/as400e.htm that seems to have some of the 170 manuals linked. Paul. On 2017-04-09 1:21 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 model 170. > I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a password and i > could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into the > machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to back up > the machine. I have a couple of tapes. > > I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the > machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to reinstall > and still have a licenced install. > > I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV command > to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a similar > command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are installed, cpu > and memory details, etc. > > Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want to get > the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can > reinstall the os and it have its license. > > --Devin From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 19:21:02 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 20:21:02 -0400 Subject: DOS-11/BATCH-11 manuals on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am being outbid left and right on those PDP 11 DOS books. Only a few hours left, if someone else wants to step in and bid then, go for it, i can not bid any further. Apparently one of them was not on bitsavers. http://www.ebay.com/itm/361940854169 --Devin On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > 2017-04-06 19:23 GMT+02:00 devin davison : > >> Did my reply not get through? I have a good scanner and placed the bid >> with the intent to put it on bitsavets. >> > Sorry. I read it quickly on the commuter train and read it as that you > asked me to bid on it and have it sent to you. My bad. > > Thanks for placing a bid and scanning it! I'll hope you get it! > > /Mattis > > >> On Apr 6, 2017 1:05 PM, "Mattis Lind" wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2017-04-06 14:43 GMT+02:00 devin davison : >>> >>>> Placed a bid, i have access. To a good scanner, will scan and upload >>>> once it arrives . >>>> >>> >>> A bid has been placed. I hope that this is from someone here so that it >>> might end up at bitsavers. I am not intending to start a bidding war. >>> >>> /Mattis >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 6, 2017 8:28 AM, "Mattis Lind via cctalk" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/361940854169 >>>>> >>>>> One of them does not seems to be at bitsavers. >>>>> >>>>> The shipping is way to high to have them shipped to Sweden and scanned. >>>>> Maybe someone in the US would care to buy and scan it? >>>>> >>>>> /Mattis >>>>> >>>> >>> > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 19:33:57 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 20:33:57 -0400 Subject: IBM AS400 questions In-Reply-To: <15d92079-0592-dbc8-239a-d46ad88f5d0b@gmail.com> References: <15d92079-0592-dbc8-239a-d46ad88f5d0b@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the info. I was worried that I needed special disks, these ones are holding up for now. my machine has a drive for 4/8gb tapes. I have never seen such a drive on a machine till this one. I am used to DDS DLT and LTO tapes. Unfortunately, what i thought was a nice new 4gb ibm branded tape sealed in box turned out to be some kind of test tape. So that is no good for backups. I bought a bunch of other sony tapes, but they are only 525mb. Will those work in my drive as well? As a last resort, i see a scsi connector on the back of the machine, can i connect any old DDS or DLT tape drive, or do i need a specific drive meant speciffically for the as400, like the hard drives? What is the name of these tape cartriges, what should i look for so i can but them online. Ive tried ebay / amazon with the term "QIC 4/8gb tape" with few results aside from the drives. --Devin On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > Devin, > > The backup command is 'savsys'. The commands on on AS/400 are usually > three letter abbreviations for in the command mashed together savsys = > 'save system' or 'work with user profiles' is 'WRKUSRPRF' and the > shutdown command 'Power Down System' is 'PWRDWNSYS'. If you type in the > command and press PF4 it will open a menu where you can fill in the options > for the command, once you get used to the commands you can type the > commands with options right on the command line for instance the command > to shutdown and power off is 'pwrdwnsys *immed restart(*no)' this is > permanently burned into my brain from back in the days when AS/400 was > still in development and the OS was running on S/38, but was a bit shaky > and prompting commands would crash the system so we learned the commands > with options. > > Since this is a 170 it probably has a QIC or 8mm tape under the covers and > the resource name for it is likely 'TAP01' savsys will by default create a > bootable tape that can be used to restore the OS. You may want to test > booting from the tape you created by changing the IPL tpye on the operator > panel from the usual "B" to "D". The D mode IPL specifies booting from an > alternate IPL device which is normall tape or CDROM. You may not be aware > that you cannot just throw in any SCSI disk, the disks have to be the > specific disks that are blessed for use in an AS/400. > > A quick google came up with a site http://www.ibmfiles.com/pages/ > as400e.htm that seems to have some of the 170 manuals linked. > > Paul. > > > > On 2017-04-09 1:21 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > >> Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 model >> 170. >> I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a password and >> i >> could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into the >> machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to back up >> the machine. I have a couple of tapes. >> >> I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the >> machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to reinstall >> and still have a licenced install. >> >> I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV command >> to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a similar >> command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are installed, cpu >> and memory details, etc. >> >> Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want to get >> the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can >> reinstall the os and it have its license. >> >> --Devin >> > > From lists at blkline.com Sun Apr 9 19:31:51 2017 From: lists at blkline.com (Barry L. Kline) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 20:31:51 -0400 Subject: IBM AS400 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1b31e780-7da7-ef8f-6422-648094bf3142@blkline.com> On 04/09/2017 12:21 PM, devin davison via cctech wrote: > Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want to get > the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can > reinstall the os and it have its license. > > --Devin > Assuming that you have tape to backup to and that you have access to a profile with sufficient privilege, then your quickest way to build a bootable tape is by typing at a command line: go save You'll want to scroll down and you'll find '21 Entire System'. This produces a bootable, full system backup tape from which you can restore your system to bare metal. Typically, your tape drive will have a device name of TAP01, particularly on a 170 (a rather smallish system). If you need further help feel free to ask. I work on these systems every week a two different clients. Barry From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Apr 10 01:33:43 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 08:33:43 +0200 Subject: IBM AS400 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170410063342.GH12631@Update.UU.SE> Hi Devin Have you subscribed to MIDRANGE-L ? http://lists.midrange.com/ They might help you out. Also, if you would document your findings I would be very greatful. I have a model 170 on my todo-list. /P On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 12:21:17PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 model 170. > I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a password and i > could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into the > machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to back up > the machine. I have a couple of tapes. > > I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the > machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to reinstall > and still have a licenced install. > > I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV command > to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a similar > command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are installed, cpu > and memory details, etc. > > Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want to get > the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can > reinstall the os and it have its license. > > --Devin From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Apr 10 01:33:43 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 08:33:43 +0200 Subject: IBM AS400 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170410063342.GH12631@Update.UU.SE> Hi Devin Have you subscribed to MIDRANGE-L ? http://lists.midrange.com/ They might help you out. Also, if you would document your findings I would be very greatful. I have a model 170 on my todo-list. /P On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 12:21:17PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 model 170. > I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a password and i > could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into the > machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to back up > the machine. I have a couple of tapes. > > I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the > machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to reinstall > and still have a licenced install. > > I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV command > to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a similar > command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are installed, cpu > and memory details, etc. > > Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want to get > the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can > reinstall the os and it have its license. > > --Devin From useddec at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 02:02:32 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 02:02:32 -0500 Subject: DEC wall plates, cables In-Reply-To: <20170409095647.49da0b4f09f5f2efd766ac24@gmail.com> References: <3E136416-A6CB-4843-BAEE-0C431BF3CBDE@icloud.com> <5f5d6261-e6e9-9169-1556-e029b78b6924@jwsss.com> <20170409095647.49da0b4f09f5f2efd766ac24@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry for the confusion. The bracket can take up to 4 cables, and the part # is H3111. It candles both MJ, MJJ (offset), coax ,etc. Close to what you can be at a store, but is says "DIGITAL" on it. The cable is plain old MJ I'm trying to post pictures, but need to dump them somewhere. On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 8:56 AM, Systems Glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Certainly looks like MMJ to me. that was what I searched for as well. > > If they're MMJ, I'd be interested in wall plates. I've got a few systems > that use it, plus I recently picked up a DECHub 90, including two terminal > server modules, which of course use MMJ. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 10 02:13:35 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 03:13:35 -0400 Subject: VCF East pictures Message-ID: <4f1bbf74-9d6b-1bfc-1b64-9851e5a3d514@snarc.net> VCF East XII was held March 31-April 2. Around 500 people were there. Adam Michlin's pictures: http://ceos.io/vcf/east/ Dave Riley's pictures: http://oscar.the-rileys.net/VCF%20East%20XII%20Photos/ Dan Roganti's pictures: http://www.rogtronics.net/blog/?page_id=730 Mike Loewen's pictures: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2017/ Herb Johnson's pictures: http://www.retrotechnology.com/vcfe12/vcf_east_2017.html ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Apr 10 11:00:16 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 18:00:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Another unknown frontpanel Message-ID: Hi, I have another frontpanel, this one is from Plessey Peripheral Systems and must come from a 16 bit system. It's only the board with LEDs and switches. Does anyone know the system this panel comes from? http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/temp/plessey_fp.jpg Christian From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 12:27:58 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 13:27:58 -0400 Subject: Another unknown frontpanel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 12:00 PM, Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I have another frontpanel, this one is from Plessey Peripheral Systems and > must come from a 16 bit system. It's only the board with LEDs and switches. > Does anyone know the system this panel comes from? > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/temp/plessey_fp.jpg > > Christian > This looks like the kind of front panel one would by after-market for a microcomputer. Its HEX, right?. This is just a *guess* Here is an example by CGRS of what I am talking about http://vintagecomputer.net/cgrs/ OR it could be a maintenance panel used by techs for diagnosing systems that don't usually have a front panel. Bill From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Apr 10 13:02:15 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:02:15 -0700 Subject: VCF East pictures Message-ID: Thanks so much to everyone sharing these. ?Ive not renewed my passport in a while and can't get to any of these events in the US so I really appreciate these. ?Maybe someday we can get a 360/VR type tour thing going. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Evan Koblentz via cctalk Date: 2017-04-10 12:13 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: VCF East pictures VCF East XII was held March 31-April 2. Around 500 people were there. Adam Michlin's pictures: http://ceos.io/vcf/east/ Dave Riley's pictures: http://oscar.the-rileys.net/VCF%20East%20XII%20Photos/ Dan Roganti's pictures: http://www.rogtronics.net/blog/?page_id=730 Mike Loewen's pictures: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2017/ Herb Johnson's pictures: http://www.retrotechnology.com/vcfe12/vcf_east_2017.html ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 10 13:41:34 2017 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 18:41:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> I have a Harris RTX-2000 based system control board for a long defunct system.? The board worked when removed more than 20 years ago in the mid 90's.? The RTX-2000 is a stack-based processor designed for running FORTH.? I think it was designed by Phil Koopman based on his graduate work.? The board is a 16-bit ISA board.? It was part of an MRI system that ran a version of MPE forth with a C-to-FORTH compiler (actually a C-like variant) that spits out a 16-bit FORTH variant with some embedded RTX-2000 code. I also have another card with 3 channels of streaming 16-bit digital I/O, with special hardware to implement on-the-fly rotation matrices to the streaming output. I have all the software and drivers as well. and I have written a c-based simulator that can run the FORTH/assembly emitted by the C-to-FORTH compiler (as well as the MRI libraries and hardware.) If anyone wants to tinker with this hardware, or just pull the RTX-2000 chip, I would rather find a good home than toss the boards. Dave From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 13:48:36 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:48:36 -0700 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Dave via cctalk wrote: > I have a Harris RTX-2000 based system control board for a long defunct > system. The board worked when removed more than 20 years ago in the mid > 90's. The RTX-2000 is a stack-based processor designed for running FORTH. > I think it was designed by Phil Koopman based on his graduate work. The > board is a 16-bit ISA board. It was part of an MRI system that ran a > version of MPE forth with a C-to-FORTH compiler (actually a C-like variant) > that spits out a 16-bit FORTH variant with some embedded RTX-2000 code. > > I also have another card with 3 channels of streaming 16-bit digital I/O, > with special hardware to implement on-the-fly rotation matrices to the > streaming output. > I have all the software and drivers as well. and I have written a c-based > simulator that can run the FORTH/assembly emitted by the C-to-FORTH > compiler (as well as the MRI libraries and hardware.) > If anyone wants to tinker with this hardware, or just pull the RTX-2000 > chip, I would rather find a good home than toss the boards. > Dave > I am interested; I was a Forth programmer back in the day, but never had a chance to work with Forth processors. I am in the Seattle area. -- Charles From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 13:57:10 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 14:57:10 -0400 Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > VCF East XII was held March 31-April 2. Around 500 people were there. > > Adam Michlin's pictures: http://ceos.io/vcf/east/ > > Dave Riley's pictures: > http://oscar.the-rileys.net/VCF%20East%20XII%20Photos/ > > Dan Roganti's pictures: http://www.rogtronics.net/blog/?page_id=730 > > Mike Loewen's pictures: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2017/ > > Herb Johnson's pictures: > http://www.retrotechnology.com/vcfe12/vcf_east_2017.html > > Bill Degnan's pictures: http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf12/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 10 15:42:36 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 13:42:36 -0700 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 04/10/2017 11:41 AM, Dave via cctalk wrote: > I have a Harris RTX-2000 based system control board for a long > defunct system. The board worked when removed more than 20 years ago > in the mid 90's. The RTX-2000 is a stack-based processor designed > for running FORTH. I think it was designed by Phil Koopman based on > his graduate work. The board is a 16-bit ISA board. It was part of > an MRI system that ran a version of MPE forth with a C-to-FORTH > compiler (actually a C-like variant) that spits out a 16-bit FORTH > variant with some embedded RTX-2000 code. That is a bit of a surprise--in my experience it takes very little code to support Forth on any processor--that someone would build a dedicated chip for it is unusual. Were there any microprocessor chips that attempted to mimic the Burroughs B5000 series and natively execute Algol of any flavor? --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 15:59:40 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 20:59:40 +0000 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 4/10/2017 4:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 04/10/2017 11:41 AM, Dave via cctalk wrote: >> I have a Harris RTX-2000 based system control board for a long >> defunct system. The board worked when removed more than 20 years ago >> in the mid 90's. The RTX-2000 is a stack-based processor designed >> for running FORTH. I think it was designed by Phil Koopman based on >> his graduate work. The board is a 16-bit ISA board. It was part of >> an MRI system that ran a version of MPE forth with a C-to-FORTH >> compiler (actually a C-like variant) that spits out a 16-bit FORTH >> variant with some embedded RTX-2000 code. > > That is a bit of a surprise--in my experience it takes very little code > to support Forth on any processor--that someone would build a dedicated > chip for it is unusual. > > Were there any microprocessor chips that attempted to mimic the > Burroughs B5000 series and natively execute Algol of any flavor? No, but Western Digital implemented the UCSD P-machine in hardware selling it as the Pascal Microengine. I always wanted on of those but I fear few have survived the scrap yard. bill From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 16:23:15 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 15:23:15 -0600 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 10, 2017 2:43 PM, "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" wrote: > Were there any microprocessor chips that attempted to mimic the > Burroughs B5000 series and natively execute Algol of any flavor? Yes, that's what the HP 3000 did (before PA RISC), and they did make microprocessor implementations of it. The Intel iAPX 432 was also designed to explicitly support block-structured languages. The main language Intel pushed was Ada, but there was no technical reason it couldn't have supported Algol, Pascal, Modula, Euclid, Mesa, etc. just as well. (Or just as poorly, depending on your point of view.) The iAPX 432 could not have supported standard C, though, except in the sense that since the 432 GDP was Turing-complete, code running on it could provide an emulated environment suitable for standard C. When the 432 project (originally 8800) started, there weren't many people predicting that C (and its derivatives) would take over the world. From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 10 16:39:57 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 17:39:57 -0400 Subject: The iAPX 432 and block languages (was Re: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?)) In-Reply-To: References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20170410213957.GC24486@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Eric Smith via cctalk once stated: > > The Intel iAPX 432 was also designed to explicitly support block-structured > languages. The main language Intel pushed was Ada, but there was no > technical reason it couldn't have supported Algol, Pascal, Modula, Euclid, > Mesa, etc. just as well. (Or just as poorly, depending on your point of > view.) > > The iAPX 432 could not have supported standard C, though, except in the > sense that since the 432 GDP was Turing-complete, code running on it could > provide an emulated environment suitable for standard C. What about C made it difficult for the 432 to run? -spc (Curious here, as some aspects of the 432 made their way to the 286 and we all know what happened to that architecture ... ) From jecel at merlintec.com Mon Apr 10 16:49:19 2017 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 18:49:19 -0300 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20170410214923.0BD4F9D249E73@bart0184.email.locaweb.com.br> Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2017 20:59:40 +0000 > On 4/10/2017 4:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Were there any microprocessor chips that attempted to mimic the > > Burroughs B5000 series and natively execute Algol of any flavor? > > No, but Western Digital implemented the UCSD P-machine in hardware > selling it as the Pascal Microengine. I always wanted on of those > but I fear few have survived the scrap yard. This shared most chips with the DEC LSI-11 but used different microcode. I created this list for one of my talks: Historical Language Specific Architectures: - Algol: English Electric KDF9, Burroughs B5000 - APL: Philip Abrams' machine - Pascal: Western Digital Microengine - Modula-2: Lilith - extended Ada: Intel iAPX432 - Lisp: Symbolics, Lisp Machine Inc., Texas Instruments, Xerox D Machines - Forth: Novix, Harris RTX-2000, MISC MC17, WISC CPU/16, SC32, MuP21, MSL16, Ignite, i21, F21, E16, MARC4, QSP16, TF2216, Steamer16, MicroCore,J1, SC20, F18 GA144 - Java: picoJava, aj102, Cjip, Komodo, FemtoJava, ARM Jazelle,JOP, SHAP, MAJIC - Smalltalk: Xerox D Machines, Katana32, Swamp, AI32, SOAR, COM, Rekursive, Mushroom, J-Machine I expect this list is not complete. Note that I don't include computers created for a specific language using a conventional processor, like the APL computers MCM/70, IBM 5100 and Ampere WS-1. Some architectures that are considered general purpose have included features to support specific languages. The original 8086 was good at running Pascal, but pretty bad at C, for examle (this was fixed in the 386). The National 32016 tried to support Modula-2 (and Ada) which forced the 68020 to add matching features, which then were dropped from the 68030 as it became obvious that C had won the language wars of the 1980s. About the original question, since the Burroughs architecture was eventually implemented as a microprocessor you can say that this was designed to run Algol: http://www.cpushack.com/2015/04/18/the-forgotten-ones-unisys-scamp-d-mai nframe/ -- Jecel From jecel at merlintec.com Mon Apr 10 17:14:16 2017 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 19:14:16 -0300 Subject: The iAPX 432 and block languages (was Re: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?)) In-Reply-To: <20170410213957.GC24486@brevard.conman.org> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410213957.GC24486@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20170410221422.3003C6472D93D@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> Sean Conner via cctalk wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2017 17:39:57 -0400 > What about C made it difficult for the 432 to run? > > -spc (Curious here, as some aspects of the 432 made their way to the 286 > and we all know what happened to that architecture ... ) C expects memory addresses to look like integers and for it to be easy to convert between the two. If your architecture uses a pair of numbers or an even more complicated scheme then you won't be able to have a proper C but only one or more less than satisfactory approximations. The iAPX432 and 286 used logical segments. So there is no sequence of increment or decrement operations that will get you from a byte in one segment to a byte in another segment. For the 8086 that is sometimes true but can be false if the "segments" (they should really be called relocation registers instead) overlap. Another feature of C is that it doesn't take types too seriously when dealing with pointers. This means that a pointer to an integer array and a pointer to a function can be mixed up in some ways. If an application has been written like that then the best way to run it on an architectures like these Intel ones is to set all segments to the same memory region and never change them during execution. This is sometimes called the "tiny memory model". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Memory_Model Most applications keep function pointers separate from other kinds of pointers and in this case you can set the code segment to a different area than the data and stack for a total of 128KB of memory (compared to just 64KB for the tiny memory model). The table in the page I indicated shows options that can use even more memory, but that requires non standard C stuff like "far pointers" and I don't consider the result to be actually C since you can't move programer to and from machines like the VAX or 68000 without rewriting them. -- Jecel p.s.: sorry about the word wrapped link in my other post. It should have been: > http://www.cpushack.com/2015/04/18/the-forgotten-ones-unisys-scamp-d-mainframe/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 10 17:21:08 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 15:21:08 -0700 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <20170410214923.0BD4F9D249E73@bart0184.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410214923.0BD4F9D249E73@bart0184.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <50f8d8e1-ac91-f9cd-32bf-c2e19d927ca4@sydex.com> On 04/10/2017 02:49 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: Thanks for the list--I was aware of the various Java engines and the WD P-code engine, but had never run into the SCAMP. > Some architectures that are considered general purpose have included > features to support specific languages. The original 8086 was good at > running Pascal, but pretty bad at C, for examle (this was fixed in the > 386). The National 32016 tried to support Modula-2 (and Ada) which > forced the 68020 to add matching features, which then were dropped from > the 68030 as it became obvious that C had won the language wars of the > 1980s. Okay, I've got to ask--exactly what made the 8086 unsuitable for C, but work with Pascal? I'll admit to puzzlement about this statement. --Chuck From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Mon Apr 10 17:52:32 2017 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:52:32 +1000 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <20170410214923.0BD4F9D249E73@bart0184.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410214923.0BD4F9D249E73@bart0184.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 7:49 AM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > About the original question, since the Burroughs architecture was > eventually implemented as a microprocessor you can say that this was > designed to run Algol: > > http://www.cpushack.com/2015/04/18/the-forgotten-ones-unisys-scamp-d-mainframe/ It is worth remembering the SCAMP MCM also supported the IBM 370 for the Unisys System-80/7E platform (running OS/3). However the SCAMP was implemented it could handle two quite different machine architectures. From jecel at merlintec.com Mon Apr 10 18:47:00 2017 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 20:47:00 -0300 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <50f8d8e1-ac91-f9cd-32bf-c2e19d927ca4@sydex.com> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410214923.0BD4F9D249E73@bart0184.email.locaweb.com.br> <50f8d8e1-ac91-f9cd-32bf-c2e19d927ca4@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20170410234736.82AB89B339834@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote on Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 15:21:08 -0700 > Thanks for the list--I was aware of the various Java engines and the WD > P-code engine, but had never run into the SCAMP. I just found an academic Pascal microprocessor from 1980 called EM-1 and described all the way to the chip layout level: http://authors.library.caltech.edu/27046/1/TR_2883.pdf > Okay, I've got to ask--exactly what made the 8086 unsuitable for C, but > work with Pascal? I'll admit to puzzlement about this statement. I talked about the problem with far pointers and C in the post about the iAPX 432. The 64KB segments in the 8086 were not a problem for Pascal (or Smalltalk, as shown by the Xerox PARC Notetaker computer) because each heap object and each proceedure can live in a different segment to take advantage of the whole memory. A single object (like an array) can't be split into multiple segments which limits us to small objects (this is not a problem for Smalltalk which can completely hide such splits as shown in the Mushroom computer). One big difference between Pascal and C is that while C seems to have nested lexical scoped like Algol at first glance (and indeed it is often list as being part of the "Algol family") it really doesn't. An object either lives in the heap or is in the local stack frame. You can declare new variables inside { ... } and they will shadow variables with the same name declared outside of these brackets but this has no effect on the runtime structures. Pascal, on the other hand, allows proceedures to be declared inside other proceedures and these nested scopes can access stuff declared in the more external scopes. This requires some runtime structures that can be awkward to implement in many processor architectures. An expression like: x := y; might generate quite a bit of code if "x" was declared one level up and "y" was declared three levels up. But on the 8086 we could have pointers to the frames of the various lexical levels saved at the start of the current frame just like the "display registers" in the Burroughs B5000. We could have something like: mov di,[bp-2*3] ; lexical level 3 mov ax,[di-20] ; y mov di,[bp-2*1] ; lexical level 1 mov [di-8],ax ; x Filling up those pointers on each proceedure entry can take some time so a popular alternative for when nested references were not too common was to have a linked list of runtime frames and code like: mov di,[bp-2] ; lexical level 1 mov di,[di-2] ; lexical level 2 mov di,[di-2] ; lexical level 3 mov ax,[di-20] ; y mov di,[bp-2] ; lexical level 1 mov [di-8],ax ; x Being able to directly address constant offsets from the base pointer and offsets from the result of that greatly reduces the number of instructions needed to support lexical scoping in Pascal. For C, constant offsets from a pointer are great for getting at the elements of structs, so this is a nice thing to have in any case and most RISCs implement this. -- Jecel p.s.: I haven't programmed in x86 assembly since 1987 so don't trust the above code fragments From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 10 18:53:30 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 16:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <20170410234736.82AB89B339834@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> from "Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk" at "Apr 10, 17 08:47:00 pm" Message-ID: <201704102353.v3ANrUY67602320@floodgap.com> > > Thanks for the list--I was aware of the various Java engines and the WD > > P-code engine, but had never run into the SCAMP. > > I just found an academic Pascal microprocessor from 1980 called EM-1 and > described all the way to the chip layout level: > > http://authors.library.caltech.edu/27046/1/TR_2883.pdf My Venix DEC PRO 380 will run EM-1 binaries in an emulator (it looks like). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- May I join your mind? -- Sarek, Star Trek III ------------------------------ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 18:54:15 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:54:15 +0000 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com>, <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'd also like to have the board. I have a board with a NC4000 but never managed to get a RTX-2000. One might say the NC4000 was the prototype for the RTX-2000. The RTX-2000 could run applications several times faster than the same applications on a X86 machine of the time. They were often used as accelerators for different purposes. The ran two 16 bit busses at the same time and could execute as much as 4 operations in a single cycle. Most instructions did a minimum of 2 operations in a single cycle. Harris made the RTX-2000 in a rad hardened form so they were commonly used for satellites. Having only a few gates for a processor meant they were more reliable for such applications as well. As an example. I wrote code for my NC4000, running at 2MHz that could sort 1,000 integers in 19.1 ms, worst case. I'm in silicon valley. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Dave via cctalk Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 11:41:34 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) I have a Harris RTX-2000 based system control board for a long defunct system. The board worked when removed more than 20 years ago in the mid 90's. The RTX-2000 is a stack-based processor designed for running FORTH. I think it was designed by Phil Koopman based on his graduate work. The board is a 16-bit ISA board. It was part of an MRI system that ran a version of MPE forth with a C-to-FORTH compiler (actually a C-like variant) that spits out a 16-bit FORTH variant with some embedded RTX-2000 code. I also have another card with 3 channels of streaming 16-bit digital I/O, with special hardware to implement on-the-fly rotation matrices to the streaming output. I have all the software and drivers as well. and I have written a c-based simulator that can run the FORTH/assembly emitted by the C-to-FORTH compiler (as well as the MRI libraries and hardware.) If anyone wants to tinker with this hardware, or just pull the RTX-2000 chip, I would rather find a good home than toss the boards. Dave From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 10 19:45:38 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 17:45:38 -0700 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <20170410234736.82AB89B339834@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410214923.0BD4F9D249E73@bart0184.email.locaweb.com.br> <50f8d8e1-ac91-f9cd-32bf-c2e19d927ca4@sydex.com> <20170410234736.82AB89B339834@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <4fae4e21-6f36-a321-0f90-b8eeb96ca766@sydex.com> On 04/10/2017 04:47 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > The 64KB segments in the 8086 were not a problem for Pascal (or > Smalltalk, as shown by the Xerox PARC Notetaker computer) because each > heap object and each proceedure can live in a different segment to take > advantage of the whole memory. A single object (like an array) can't be > split into multiple segments which limits us to small objects (this is > not a problem for Smalltalk which can completely hide such splits as > shown in the Mushroom computer). Oh, heck, I pointed out the problems with segment-offset addressing before the 8086 was released on silicon to Intel applications engineers. They didn't seem to think it was a big deal. I even asked for an "add to far" instruction that would get rid of the nasty bit manipulation, but to no avail. But for tiny, small and compact memory models, the 8086 is just fine. Speculatively, I don't think that the 8086 was initially considered as a minicomputer-type processor, but more of an extension of the x80 architecture to serve the embedded world. No privileged mode, strange segment/offset addressing, etc. I suspect that at some point, Intel had its big-system hopes pinned on the iA432 chipset. The fiction of automatic translation from 8080/85 code was just that. I recall that "Fast Eddie", our local sales rep made the mistake of telling a tall one that Intel's assembly-language translator produced smaller code that ran faster than the x80 version. I called him on it and gave him a sample program that ran under ISIS-II and told him to do his best. It was a floating-point package, with test data. Straight code; no fancy macros. I probably still have the original code somewhere. So, we went down to the local sales office in Santa Clara where there was an MDS all set up, complete with hard drive and the 80-to-86 translator. I cautioned the sales engineer that the code did a lot of tricky stuff with flags, so any translation would have to be very accurate. The program went in (it was about 10 AM) and the MDS just ground and ground... 12:30 came around and we were treated to lunch while the translator worked on the miserable 3000 lines of 8080 assembly. Back from lunch, nothing... By 5 PM, we had gotten nowhere, so we said our goodbyes and told him to contact us when they finally got it to work. Two weeks passed and Fast Eddie called to say that they had finally got the translation done (after some tweaking of the translator). The result was that the translated code was nearly twice as large as the x80 code and, while the program executed, it gave the wrong answers (we didn't tell them what the answers should be as part of the test). I was advocating the very new Motorola 68K chip and had even produced a (wirewrap) prototype CPU board that ran enough code to get to the "Hello world" stage. Unfortunately, Bill Davidow was on our BOD and he said in no uncertain terms that it would be a cold day in Hell if one of the companies he shepherded used a competitor's CPU. So we eventually wound up using the 80186, and added a spot for the 80286 on the CPU board. We got it all working, but it was a long slog because we were using prerelease silicon and a bug could stop us dead for two weeks or more while we awaited the next stepping. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Apr 10 20:24:24 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 18:24:24 -0700 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <4fae4e21-6f36-a321-0f90-b8eeb96ca766@sydex.com> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410214923.0BD4F9D249E73@bart0184.email.locaweb.com.br> <50f8d8e1-ac91-f9cd-32bf-c2e19d927ca4@sydex.com> <20170410234736.82AB89B339834@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> <4fae4e21-6f36-a321-0f90-b8eeb96ca766@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4/10/2017 5:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I suspect that at some point, Intel had > its big-system hopes pinned on the iA432 chipset. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_iAPX_432 A friend made his career at Biin, mostly coding mind numbing code from specs, and a round of golf every morning. The Siemens employees and Intel employees in the building were always in a state of terror with politics, but the Biin employees had Intel retirement and tenure accumulating, and were free of any churn. He retired early from Intel. The wiki article mentions Merced, which I worked on doing an ICE product (third party company). Loved the stepping of the first processor, 8765309. The slot @ a fab appeared so suddenly noone in the department that prepped the package to make the first run had time to change it out. It appeared @ a demo at an inopportune moment, to much amusement. But I digress. thanks Jim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_iAPX_432 From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 10 20:43:29 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:43:29 -0400 Subject: The iAPX 432 and block languages (was Re: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?)) In-Reply-To: <20170410221422.3003C6472D93D@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410213957.GC24486@brevard.conman.org> <20170410221422.3003C6472D93D@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <20170411014329.GD24486@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk once stated: > Sean Conner via cctalk wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2017 17:39:57 -0400 > > What about C made it difficult for the 432 to run? > > > > -spc (Curious here, as some aspects of the 432 made their way to the 286 > > and we all know what happened to that architecture ... ) > > C expects memory addresses to look like integers and for it to be easy > to convert between the two. If your architecture uses a pair of numbers > or an even more complicated scheme then you won't be able to have a > proper C but only one or more less than satisfactory approximations. Just because a ton of C code was written with that assumption doesn't make it actually true. A lot of C code assumes a byte-addressable, two's compliment architecture but C (technically Standard C) doesn't require either and goes out of its way to warn programmers *not* to make such assumptions. The C Standard is very careful to note what is and isn't allowed with respect to memory and much of what is done is technically illegal and anything can happen. > The iAPX432 and 286 used logical segments. So there is no sequence of > increment or decrement operations that will get you from a byte in one > segment to a byte in another segment. For the 8086 that is sometimes > true but can be false if the "segments" (they should really be called > relocation registers instead) overlap. Given: p1 = malloc(10); p2 = malloc(65536); There is no legal way to increment *or* decrement one to get to the other. It's not even guarenteed that p2 > p1. > Another feature of C is that it doesn't take types too seriously when > dealing with pointers. This means that a pointer to an integer array and > a pointer to a function can be mixed up in some ways. This is an issue, but mostly with K&R C (which had even less type checking than ANSI C). These days a compiler will warn if you try to pass a function even with *no* cranking of the warning levels. Yes, C has issues, but please try not to make ones up for modern C. But if the point was, back in the day (1982) that this *was* an issue, then yes, I would agree (to a point). But I would bet that had the 432 been successful, a C compiler would have been produced for it. > If an application > has been written like that then the best way to run it on an > architectures like these Intel ones is to set all segments to the same > memory region and never change them during execution. This is sometimes > called the "tiny memory model". > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Memory_Model > > Most applications keep function pointers separate from other kinds of > pointers and in this case you can set the code segment to a different > area than the data and stack for a total of 128KB of memory (compared to > just 64KB for the tiny memory model). > > The table in the page I indicated shows options that can use even more > memory, but that requires non standard C stuff like "far pointers" and I > don't consider the result to be actually C since you can't move > programer to and from machines like the VAX or 68000 without rewriting > them. "Far" pointers exist for MS-DOS to support mixed memory-model programming, where library A wants object larger than 64K while library B doesn't care either way. Yes it's a mess but that's pragmatism for you. But there's still code out there with such remnents, like zlib. For example: ZEXTERN int ZEXPORT inflateBackInit OF((z_stream FAR *strm, int windowBits, unsigned char FAR *window)); ZEXTERN, XEXPORT, OF and FAR exist to support different C compilers over the ages. And of those, XEXTERN and XEXPORT are for Windows, FAR for MS-DOS (see a pattern here?) and OF for pre-ANSI C compilers. -spc From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 10 21:15:03 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 22:15:03 -0400 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <20170410234736.82AB89B339834@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410214923.0BD4F9D249E73@bart0184.email.locaweb.com.br> <50f8d8e1-ac91-f9cd-32bf-c2e19d927ca4@sydex.com> <20170410234736.82AB89B339834@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <20170411021503.GE24486@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk once stated: > Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote on Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 15:21:08 -0700 > > Thanks for the list--I was aware of the various Java engines and the WD > > P-code engine, but had never run into the SCAMP. > > I just found an academic Pascal microprocessor from 1980 called EM-1 and > described all the way to the chip layout level: > > http://authors.library.caltech.edu/27046/1/TR_2883.pdf > > > Okay, I've got to ask--exactly what made the 8086 unsuitable for C, but > > work with Pascal? I'll admit to puzzlement about this statement. > > I talked about the problem with far pointers and C in the post about the > iAPX 432. > > The 64KB segments in the 8086 were not a problem for Pascal (or > Smalltalk, as shown by the Xerox PARC Notetaker computer) because each > heap object and each proceedure can live in a different segment to take > advantage of the whole memory. A single object (like an array) can't be > split into multiple segments which limits us to small objects (this is > not a problem for Smalltalk which can completely hide such splits as > shown in the Mushroom computer). There's nothing here that makes it a problem for C. You will end up with using large pointers (segment, offset) but that would be the same for your hypothetical Pascal compiler. > One big difference between Pascal and C is that while C seems to have > nested lexical scoped like Algol at first glance (and indeed it is often > list as being part of the "Algol family") it really doesn't. It does. > An object > either lives in the heap or is in the local stack frame. The same is true for Pascal or any other language in the "Algol" family. > You can declare > new variables inside { ... } and they will shadow variables with the > same name declared outside of these brackets but this has no effect on > the runtime structures. > > Pascal, on the other hand, allows proceedures to be declared inside > other proceedures and these nested scopes can access stuff declared in > the more external scopes. Yes. You cannot do this in C because unlike Pascal (and I support others in the Algol family), C allows you to pass functions to other functions via function pointers. Pascal does not allow this [1], because of exactly this reason---external scopes. [2] It becomes more difficult to support. Not impossible, just real ugly (and most likely a special case). > This requires some runtime structures that can > be awkward to implement in many processor architectures. An expression > like: > > x := y; > > might generate quite a bit of code if "x" was declared one level up and > "y" was declared three levels up. But on the 8086 we could have pointers > to the frames of the various lexical levels saved at the start of the > current frame just like the "display registers" in the Burroughs B5000. Yes, and so can the VAX, 6809, 68000, MIPS, SPARC. It might be a bit more convenient to do on the Intel x86 line, but almost no compiler I know of actually *use* the x86 instructions dedicated for this feature (they're too slow). > We could have something like: > > mov di,[bp-2*3] ; lexical level 3 > mov ax,[di-20] ; y > mov di,[bp-2*1] ; lexical level 1 > mov [di-8],ax ; x Ah yes, the ENTER instruction. > Filling up those pointers on each proceedure entry can take some time so > a popular alternative for when nested references were not too common was > to have a linked list of runtime frames and code like: > > mov di,[bp-2] ; lexical level 1 > mov di,[di-2] ; lexical level 2 > mov di,[di-2] ; lexical level 3 > mov ax,[di-20] ; y > mov di,[bp-2] ; lexical level 1 > mov [di-8],ax ; x You mean: mov di,[bp] ; up one level mov di,[di] ; up two levels mov di,[di] ; up three levels mov ax,[di - 20],ax mov di,[bp] ; up one level mov [di - 8],ax -spc [1] Standard Pascal. I'm willing to conceed a system might have a Pascal with non-standard extensions that allow function pointers, but then it isn't standard Pascal, is it? [2] GCC does allow you to declare nested functions in C, but again, that's a non-standard C extension. From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 10 22:02:57 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:02:57 -0400 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <20170411021503.GE24486@brevard.conman.org> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410214923.0BD4F9D249E73@bart0184.email.locaweb.com.br> <50f8d8e1-ac91-f9cd-32bf-c2e19d927ca4@sydex.com> <20170410234736.82AB89B339834@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> <20170411021503.GE24486@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20170411030257.GF24486@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Sean Conner via cctalk once stated: > It was thus said that the Great Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk once stated: > > > You can declare > > new variables inside { ... } and they will shadow variables with the > > same name declared outside of these brackets but this has no effect on > > the runtime structures. > > > > Pascal, on the other hand, allows proceedures to be declared inside > > other proceedures and these nested scopes can access stuff declared in > > the more external scopes. > > Yes. You cannot do this in C because unlike Pascal (and I support others > in the Algol family), C allows you to pass functions to other functions via > function pointers. Pascal does not allow this [1], because of exactly this > reason---external scopes. [2] It becomes more difficult to support. Not > impossible, just real ugly (and most likely a special case). Actually, I want to expand upon this a bit. Given the following hypothetical C code: int do_the_sort(foobar *foo,size_t nfoo,int sort_criteria[]) { qsort( foo, nfoo, sizeof(foobar), int (const foobar *l,const foobar *r) { if (sort_criteria[l->type] < sort_criteria[r->type]) return -1; else if (sort_criteria[l->type] > sort_criteria[r->type]) return 1; return strcmp(l->name,r->name); } ); /* ... rest of code } The anonymous sorting function accesses data in an outer lexical scope, but the issue here is there's an undetermined number of intermediate stack frames between do_the_sort() and the anonymous sort function. A way around this issue (and it's not limited to this pseudo-C but any function that allows nested functions like this) is to have "fat function pointers" that include two pointers---one to the current lexical scope and one to the actual function, so it would probably look like this in an actual implementation: qsort( foo, nfoo, sizeof(foobar), ADDRESS_OF_STACK_FRAME(do_the_sort), int (STACKFRAME *p,const foobar *l,const foobar *r) { if (p->sort_criteria[l->type] < p->sort_criteria[r->type]) ... } ); (plus some magic in calling the anonymous function from qsort(), like setting the stack frame register (EBP on x86, A6 by convention on the 68000, U on the 6809, R12 on the VAX) to the passed in stack frame prior to calling the function so it just works like any other nested function) The harder issue is the following: void set_signal_handlers(int signum,int what_to_do) { void handler(int sig) { if (what_to_do == EXIT) _exit(1); if (what_to_do == LOG) syslog(LOG_DEBUG,"signal %d happened",sig); } signal(signum,handler); } signal() doesn't actually call the locally scoped function---it just does some system magic to have handler() called when SIGINT or SIGTERM is raised. Unlike the anonymous function in do_the_sort(), where it's called during the execution of qsort so the frame for do_the_sort() still exists, here, the frame for seg_signal_handlers() is long gone by the time the local function handler() is called. And this is a *much harder* problem to solve. I really think it's for *this* reason (the handler() example) that C doesn't allow nested functions. -spc (Misses anonymous and nested functions in C, but has learned to work around it) From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 22:12:52 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:12:52 -0400 Subject: IBM AS400 questions In-Reply-To: <20170410063342.GH12631@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170410063342.GH12631@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Made some progress with the AS400. Looks like one of the hard drives has failed, it stated that if another disk fails then there could be a loss of data. Plan was to back up the system to a couple of 8GB QIC tapes, however looking at my tapes they turned out to be only QIC525 MB tapes, and are not enough to back up the entire machine. Shopping around, i am not seeing 8GB tapes for less than $40, which is kinda costly. I do not know how to determine the total size of files on the system, or how many tapes the completed backup will be. There is a scsi port on the back of the machine. If i pick up an ibm branded drive, can i connect just any ibm branded tape drive, or do i need a specific model? I recall seeing a 8MM drive at the place where i got it , and possibly an external dat drive as well. I have plenty of dat tapes, I am trying to get a drive where the media has a higher capacity / lower cost. I read that there is a printer port on the back of my Infowindow II terminal, do i need a special ibm printer? if not, i have a good dot matrix printer here with a box of paper that should do the job. Leaving it powered down after tonight until i can make a complete save. Thanks to all for the advice so far. Really steep learning curve but quite an interesting machine. --Devin On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 2:33 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi Devin > > Have you subscribed to MIDRANGE-L ? http://lists.midrange.com/ > > They might help you out. Also, if you would document your findings I > would be very greatful. I have a model 170 on my todo-list. > > /P > > On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 12:21:17PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 model > 170. > > I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a password > and i > > could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into the > > machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to back up > > the machine. I have a couple of tapes. > > > > I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the > > machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to reinstall > > and still have a licenced install. > > > > I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV command > > to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a similar > > command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are installed, cpu > > and memory details, etc. > > > > Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want to > get > > the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can > > reinstall the os and it have its license. > > > > --Devin > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 22:12:52 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:12:52 -0400 Subject: IBM AS400 questions In-Reply-To: <20170410063342.GH12631@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170410063342.GH12631@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Made some progress with the AS400. Looks like one of the hard drives has failed, it stated that if another disk fails then there could be a loss of data. Plan was to back up the system to a couple of 8GB QIC tapes, however looking at my tapes they turned out to be only QIC525 MB tapes, and are not enough to back up the entire machine. Shopping around, i am not seeing 8GB tapes for less than $40, which is kinda costly. I do not know how to determine the total size of files on the system, or how many tapes the completed backup will be. There is a scsi port on the back of the machine. If i pick up an ibm branded drive, can i connect just any ibm branded tape drive, or do i need a specific model? I recall seeing a 8MM drive at the place where i got it , and possibly an external dat drive as well. I have plenty of dat tapes, I am trying to get a drive where the media has a higher capacity / lower cost. I read that there is a printer port on the back of my Infowindow II terminal, do i need a special ibm printer? if not, i have a good dot matrix printer here with a box of paper that should do the job. Leaving it powered down after tonight until i can make a complete save. Thanks to all for the advice so far. Really steep learning curve but quite an interesting machine. --Devin On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 2:33 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi Devin > > Have you subscribed to MIDRANGE-L ? http://lists.midrange.com/ > > They might help you out. Also, if you would document your findings I > would be very greatful. I have a model 170 on my todo-list. > > /P > > On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 12:21:17PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 model > 170. > > I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a password > and i > > could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into the > > machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to back up > > the machine. I have a couple of tapes. > > > > I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the > > machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to reinstall > > and still have a licenced install. > > > > I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV command > > to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a similar > > command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are installed, cpu > > and memory details, etc. > > > > Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want to > get > > the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can > > reinstall the os and it have its license. > > > > --Devin > From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 10 19:03:46 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 20:03:46 -0400 Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f3cbb3d-d6ae-0a66-7479-7a3317ba245b@snarc.net> >> VCF East XII was held March 31-April 2. Around 500 people were there. >> >> Adam Michlin's pictures: http://ceos.io/vcf/east/ >> >> Dave Riley's pictures: >> http://oscar.the-rileys.net/VCF%20East%20XII%20Photos/ >> >> Dan Roganti's pictures: http://www.rogtronics.net/blog/?page_id=730 >> >> Mike Loewen's pictures: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2017/ >> >> Herb Johnson's pictures: >> http://www.retrotechnology.com/vcfe12/vcf_east_2017.html >> >> > Bill Degnan's pictures: > http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf12/ Oops -- sorry for the omission, Bill. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 10 19:59:46 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 20:59:46 -0400 Subject: Atlanta and lots more VCF news Message-ID: <5f8e8701-e7a3-7354-19f4-ac5b0097818b@snarc.net> VCF East is done, VCF Southeast is next (April 29-30), VCF West is August 5-6, and this summer we're announcing a NEW edition of the show in an awesome place. :) Southeast will feature former Apple Macintosh exec Andy Hertzfeld and former Tandy exec Don French. I will be there too, but don't let that stop you from going. ;) http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/otherevents/vintage-computer-festival-southeast/ ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From lars at nocrew.org Tue Apr 11 01:18:27 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:18:27 +0200 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: (Chuck Guzis via cctalk's message of "Mon, 10 Apr 2017 13:42:36 -0700") References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <86k26rxya4.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > That is a bit of a surprise--in my experience it takes very little > code to support Forth on any processor--that someone would build a > dedicated chip for it is unusual. There are actually quite a few Forth processors. Charles Moore himself designed half a dozen or so. The RTX-2000 series is a descentant of his Novix chip. Check out GreenArrays for his latest work. There are also some FPGA designs out there. The J1 seems somewhat popular. From mazzinia at tin.it Tue Apr 11 05:20:43 2017 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:20:43 +0200 Subject: R: IBM AS400 questions In-Reply-To: References: <20170410063342.GH12631@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <005801d2b2ad$47adbb20$d7093160$@tin.it> >From an experience with an older model ( so it may not be significant , I've just a 9401-p03 ), the only way to know if it likes another scsi tape unit is to try it... one may be liked and another no, depending on the tape firmware. Same consideration goes for booting from such tape drive. -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di devin davison via cctalk Inviato: marted? 11 aprile 2017 05:13 A: Pontus Pihlgren Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: IBM AS400 questions Made some progress with the AS400. Looks like one of the hard drives has failed, it stated that if another disk fails then there could be a loss of data. Plan was to back up the system to a couple of 8GB QIC tapes, however looking at my tapes they turned out to be only QIC525 MB tapes, and are not enough to back up the entire machine. Shopping around, i am not seeing 8GB tapes for less than $40, which is kinda costly. I do not know how to determine the total size of files on the system, or how many tapes the completed backup will be. There is a scsi port on the back of the machine. If i pick up an ibm branded drive, can i connect just any ibm branded tape drive, or do i need a specific model? I recall seeing a 8MM drive at the place where i got it , and possibly an external dat drive as well. I have plenty of dat tapes, I am trying to get a drive where the media has a higher capacity / lower cost. I read that there is a printer port on the back of my Infowindow II terminal, do i need a special ibm printer? if not, i have a good dot matrix printer here with a box of paper that should do the job. Leaving it powered down after tonight until i can make a complete save. Thanks to all for the advice so far. Really steep learning curve but quite an interesting machine. --Devin On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 2:33 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi Devin > > Have you subscribed to MIDRANGE-L ? http://lists.midrange.com/ > > They might help you out. Also, if you would document your findings I > would be very greatful. I have a model 170 on my todo-list. > > /P > > On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 12:21:17PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 > > model > 170. > > I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a > > password > and i > > could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into > > the machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to > > back up the machine. I have a couple of tapes. > > > > I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the > > machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to > > reinstall and still have a licenced install. > > > > I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV > > command to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a > > similar command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are > > installed, cpu and memory details, etc. > > > > Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want > > to > get > > the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can > > reinstall the os and it have its license. > > > > --Devin > From dave at 661.org Tue Apr 11 05:44:35 2017 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 10:44:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: remember xvscan? Message-ID: Does anyone remember using xvscan? Does anyone know how to get a hold of it anymore? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 05:53:41 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 04:53:41 -0600 Subject: The iAPX 432 and block languages (was Re: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?)) In-Reply-To: <20170410213957.GC24486@brevard.conman.org> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410213957.GC24486@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > What about C made it difficult for the [Intel iAPX] 432 to run? > The iAPX 432 was a capability based architecture; the only kind of pointer supported by the hardware was an Access Descriptor, which is a pointer to an object (or a refinement, which is a subset of an object). There is no efficient way to do any kind of pointer arithmetic, even with refinements. In the Release 1 and 2 architectures, objects were either Access Objects, which could contain Access Descriptors (pointers to objects), or Data Objects, whcih could NOT contain Access Descriptors. As a result, architectural objects were often used in pairs, with the Access Object having an Access Descriptor at a specific offset (generally 0) pointing to the corresponding Data Object. In the Release 3 architecture, a single object could have both an Access Part and a Data Part, with basically the same restriction: the Access Part can only store Access Descriptors, and the Data Part can NOT store Access Descriptors. As a consequence, a C pointer to a structure containing both pointer and non-pointer data would have to be represented as a composite of: 1) an Access Descriptor to the containing object 2) an offset into the data object or data part, for the non-pointer data, and the non-Access-Descriptor portion of any pointers 3) an offset into the access object or access part, for the Access Descriptor portion of any pointers The architecture provides no assistance for managing this sort of pointer; the compiler would just have to emit all the necessary code. However, C requires that it be possible to cast other data types into pointers. The 432 can easily enough let you read an access descriptor as data, but it will not allow you to write data to an access descriptor. That will raise an exception. It would take really awful hacks in the operating system to subvert that, and would be insanely slow. (On a machine that was already quite slow under normal conditions.) You can't even cast an Access Descriptor (which occupies 32 bits of memory) to uint32_t, then cast it back unmodified, e.g., to store a pointer into an intptr_t then put it back in a pointer. It would almost certainly be more efficient to implement C on the 432 by simply allocating a single large array of bytes as the memory for the C world, and implementing pointers only as offsets within that C world. This would preclude all access from C code to normal 432 objects, except by calling native libraries through hand-written glue. It would effectively be halfway to an abstract C machine; the compiler could emit a subset of normal 432 machine instructions that operate on the data. Note that the 432 segment size is limited to 64KB. Accessing an array larger than that, such as the proposed C world, is expensive. You have to have an array of access descriptors to data objects of 64KB (or some other power of 2) each. Release 1 and 2 provide no architectural support for it, so the machine code would have to take C virtual addresses and split them into the object index and offset. Release 3 provides an instruction for indexing a large array in this fashion; IIRC the individual data objects comprising the array are 2KB each. -spc (Curious here, as some aspects of the 432 made their way to the 286 > and we all know what happened to that architecture ... ) > The only siginificant aspect of the 432 that made it into the 286 was the use of 64KB segments, and that had already been done (badly) in the 8086. The 432 architects went on to design a RISC processor that eliminated most of the drawbacks of the 432, but still supported object-oriented addressing, type safety, and memory safety, but using 33-bit word with one bit being the tag to differentiate Access Descriptors from data. This became the BiiN machine, which was unsuccessful. With the tag bit and object-oriented instructions removed, it became the i960; the tag bit and object-oriented instructions were later offered as the i960MX. The military used the i960MX, but it is unclear whether they actually made use of the tagging. Eric From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 05:56:29 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 04:56:29 -0600 Subject: remember xvscan? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 4:44 AM, David Griffith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Does anyone remember using xvscan? Does anyone know how to get a hold of > it anymore? > I bought xvscan many years ago from tummy.com, but at some point realized that I no longer have it. I inquired several times to tummy.com about getting another copy, or even buying it again, but never got any response. From ed at groenenberg.net Tue Apr 11 05:55:49 2017 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:55:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: remember xvscan? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10391.212.108.17.1.1491908149.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Tue, April 11, 2017 12:44, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone remember using xvscan? Does anyone know how to get a hold of > it anymore? > > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > Wasn't that not an add-on to 'xv' (xv-3.10a)? Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1Lk6141nvDKPxtCa5erfFyovsoJN2LKqNJ From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 11 08:00:04 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:00:04 +0000 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com>, <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C818633-EB2B-49F0-8ABA-E2BC3AE5E450@swri.edu> Two of them went past Pluto in 2015, inside the LORRI and PEPSSI instruments on New Horizons, running (of course) flight software in FORTH. At least one more was aboard MESSENGER at Mercury, in the MASCS instrument. That is a processor architecture with legs? :-) See pp. 17 of: http://www.boulder.swri.edu/pkb/ssr/ssr-lorri.pdf - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell On Apr 10, 2017, at 6:54 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Harris made the RTX-2000 in a rad hardened form so they were commonly used for satellites. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 11 09:18:00 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 10:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) Message-ID: <20170411141800.D9D0018C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Sean Conner > I really think it's for *this* reason (the handler() example) that C > doesn't allow nested functions. I wouldn't be sure of that; I would tend to think that nested functions were left out simply because they add complexity, and didn't add enough value to outweigh that complexity. (In ~40 years of programming in C, I have never missed them.) C seems (well, until the standards committees got ahold of it) to have added things as a demonstrated need was felt for them (see DMR's evolution of C paper), and maybe they just never found a need for nested function definitions? I suspect that Ken probably knows; he's not (AFAIK) on the Unix History list (TUHS), but several of his early co-workers (including Stephen Johnson, who did PCC) are, and could relay a question to him, if it were asked over there (if we really want to know). Noel From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Apr 11 09:32:25 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:32:25 -0700 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <86k26rxya4.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <86k26rxya4.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: > On Apr 10, 2017, at 11:18 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> That is a bit of a surprise--in my experience it takes very little >> code to support Forth on any processor--that someone would build a >> dedicated chip for it is unusual. > > There are actually quite a few Forth processors. Charles Moore himself > designed half a dozen or so. The RTX-2000 series is a descentant of his > Novix chip. Check out GreenArrays for his latest work. > > There are also some FPGA designs out there. The J1 seems somewhat > popular. Yes, I?m using the J1 in some my projects. I even wrote a J1 emulator (in Forth of course) but it has some limitations. I?m in the process of re-writing it in C so I can do some multi-threaded stuff and better simulate asynchronous I/O. TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 11 11:37:27 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 09:37:27 -0700 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03e9fe18-6da3-1111-13a8-ccb67b0b1fab@sydex.com> On 04/10/2017 02:23 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > When the 432 project (originally 8800) started, there weren't many > people predicting that C (and its derivatives) would take over the world. That's the danger of a too-aggressive CISC, isn't it? I suppose that it's safe to say that if you look under the hood of any modern CPU, there's a RISC machine in there somewhere. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 11 12:05:33 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:05:33 -0400 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <03e9fe18-6da3-1111-13a8-ccb67b0b1fab@sydex.com> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <03e9fe18-6da3-1111-13a8-ccb67b0b1fab@sydex.com> Message-ID: <557309EC-BD43-498E-8B03-852F50402A07@comcast.net> > On Apr 11, 2017, at 12:37 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/10/2017 02:23 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> When the 432 project (originally 8800) started, there weren't many >> people predicting that C (and its derivatives) would take over the world. > > That's the danger of a too-aggressive CISC, isn't it? I suppose that > it's safe to say that if you look under the hood of any modern CPU, > there's a RISC machine in there somewhere. Back then it would have seemed a reasonable assumption that high level, strongly typed, languages would continue to flourish. If you assume Algol or Pascal or Ada, a machine like the 432 (or like the Burroughs 5500 and its descendants) makes perfect sense. I don't think this is exactly a question of RISC vs. CISC, but rather a question of how you believe addressing is done. For example, the EL-X8 is a one address machine with a regular instruction layout, which makes it somewhat RISC like in structure. But it has addressing modes clearly designed for efficient handling of block structured recursive languages like Algol. paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 11 12:29:16 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 10:29:16 -0700 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <557309EC-BD43-498E-8B03-852F50402A07@comcast.net> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <03e9fe18-6da3-1111-13a8-ccb67b0b1fab@sydex.com> <557309EC-BD43-498E-8B03-852F50402A07@comcast.net> Message-ID: <05e27e21-1fb1-6caa-765d-0d81956c8e55@sydex.com> On 04/11/2017 10:05 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Back then it would have seemed a reasonable assumption that high > level, strongly typed, languages would continue to flourish. If you > assume Algol or Pascal or Ada, a machine like the 432 (or like the > Burroughs 5500 and its descendants) makes perfect sense. This has me wondering about how the 432 people implemented FORTRAN. Between parameter-passing-by-reference, EQUIVALENCE and COMMON, one can be pretty cavalier about data types and addressing. Yet most FORTRANs of the time did not implement pointers. --Chuck From sieler at allegro.com Tue Apr 11 13:38:14 2017 From: sieler at allegro.com (sieler_allegro) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 11:38:14 -0700 Subject: The iAPX 432 and block languages (was Re: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eric writes: The 432 architects went on to design a RISC processor that eliminated most of the drawbacks of the 432, but still supported object-oriented addressing, type safety, and memory safety, but using 33-bit word with one bit being the tag to differentiate Access Descriptors from data. This became the BiiN machine, which was unsuccessful. And we come full circle. One of the BiiN designers, John VanZandt (may have been from Intel) cut his teeth on the Burrough B6700 at UCSD (tags, descriptors, stack), and was one of the original implementors of UCSD Pascal. At school, he roomed with a FORTH/LISP/APL implementor (me). Small world, sometimes :) Stan From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 16:57:27 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 17:57:27 -0400 Subject: IBM AS400 questions In-Reply-To: <005801d2b2ad$47adbb20$d7093160$@tin.it> References: <20170410063342.GH12631@Update.UU.SE> <005801d2b2ad$47adbb20$d7093160$@tin.it> Message-ID: I picked up a IBM 7208 222 8mm drive today. I got a bunch of tapes with it. Going to wire it up and power up the machine. Do I need to do any special config or commandsto make the drive available, or will it just show up as tap02? I want to perform a complete system backup, is there any way to find how big that will be so i can predict how many tapes I will need? How about just listing files on the system and see how much space is taken up. I have not been able to figure out how to list files yet... Slow going, but progress. Thankful this drive and tapes were still there at the scrapyard. --Devin On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:20 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > From an experience with an older model ( so it may not be significant , > I've just a 9401-p03 ), the only way to know if it likes another scsi tape > unit is to try it... one may be liked and another no, depending on the tape > firmware. Same consideration goes for booting from such tape drive. > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di devin > davison via cctalk > Inviato: marted? 11 aprile 2017 05:13 > A: Pontus Pihlgren > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: > On-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: IBM AS400 questions > > Made some progress with the AS400. Looks like one of the hard drives has > failed, it stated that if another disk fails then there could be a loss of > data. > > Plan was to back up the system to a couple of 8GB QIC tapes, however > looking at my tapes they turned out to be only QIC525 MB tapes, and are not > enough to back up the entire machine. Shopping around, i am not seeing 8GB > tapes for less than $40, which is kinda costly. I do not know how to > determine the total size of files on the system, or how many tapes the > completed backup will be. There is a scsi port on the back of the machine. > If i pick up an ibm branded drive, can i connect just any ibm branded tape > drive, or do i need a specific model? I recall seeing a 8MM drive at the > place where i got it , and possibly an external dat drive as well. I have > plenty of dat tapes, I am trying to get a drive where the media has a > higher capacity / lower cost. > > I read that there is a printer port on the back of my Infowindow II > terminal, do i need a special ibm printer? if not, i have a good dot matrix > printer here with a box of paper that should do the job. > > Leaving it powered down after tonight until i can make a complete save. > Thanks to all for the advice so far. Really steep learning curve but quite > an interesting machine. > > --Devin > > > > On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 2:33 AM, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > > > Hi Devin > > > > Have you subscribed to MIDRANGE-L ? http://lists.midrange.com/ > > > > They might help you out. Also, if you would document your findings I > > would be very greatful. I have a model 170 on my todo-list. > > > > /P > > > > On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 12:21:17PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > > Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 > > > model > > 170. > > > I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a > > > password > > and i > > > could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into > > > the machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to > > > back up the machine. I have a couple of tapes. > > > > > > I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the > > > machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to > > > reinstall and still have a licenced install. > > > > > > I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV > > > command to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a > > > similar command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are > > > installed, cpu and memory details, etc. > > > > > > Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want > > > to > > get > > > the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can > > > reinstall the os and it have its license. > > > > > > --Devin > > > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:20 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > From an experience with an older model ( so it may not be significant , > I've just a 9401-p03 ), the only way to know if it likes another scsi tape > unit is to try it... one may be liked and another no, depending on the tape > firmware. Same consideration goes for booting from such tape drive. > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di devin > davison via cctalk > Inviato: marted? 11 aprile 2017 05:13 > A: Pontus Pihlgren > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: > On-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: IBM AS400 questions > > Made some progress with the AS400. Looks like one of the hard drives has > failed, it stated that if another disk fails then there could be a loss of > data. > > Plan was to back up the system to a couple of 8GB QIC tapes, however > looking at my tapes they turned out to be only QIC525 MB tapes, and are not > enough to back up the entire machine. Shopping around, i am not seeing 8GB > tapes for less than $40, which is kinda costly. I do not know how to > determine the total size of files on the system, or how many tapes the > completed backup will be. There is a scsi port on the back of the machine. > If i pick up an ibm branded drive, can i connect just any ibm branded tape > drive, or do i need a specific model? I recall seeing a 8MM drive at the > place where i got it , and possibly an external dat drive as well. I have > plenty of dat tapes, I am trying to get a drive where the media has a > higher capacity / lower cost. > > I read that there is a printer port on the back of my Infowindow II > terminal, do i need a special ibm printer? if not, i have a good dot matrix > printer here with a box of paper that should do the job. > > Leaving it powered down after tonight until i can make a complete save. > Thanks to all for the advice so far. Really steep learning curve but quite > an interesting machine. > > --Devin > > > > On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 2:33 AM, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > > > Hi Devin > > > > Have you subscribed to MIDRANGE-L ? http://lists.midrange.com/ > > > > They might help you out. Also, if you would document your findings I > > would be very greatful. I have a model 170 on my todo-list. > > > > /P > > > > On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 12:21:17PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > > Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 > > > model > > 170. > > > I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a > > > password > > and i > > > could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into > > > the machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to > > > back up the machine. I have a couple of tapes. > > > > > > I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the > > > machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to > > > reinstall and still have a licenced install. > > > > > > I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV > > > command to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a > > > similar command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are > > > installed, cpu and memory details, etc. > > > > > > Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want > > > to > > get > > > the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can > > > reinstall the os and it have its license. > > > > > > --Devin > > > > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 17:21:22 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:21:22 -0300 Subject: IBM AS400 questions In-Reply-To: References: <20170410063342.GH12631@Update.UU.SE> <005801d2b2ad$47adbb20$d7093160$@tin.it> Message-ID: <0cefdc42-2dd0-0179-f213-d430424053ca@gmail.com> Devin, The 7208-222 is a high voltage differential device you will likely need a tape IOP for that. Earlier you indicated that there was a SCSI like connector on the back, was that on a PCI card? If so is there a 4 digit number on the back of the card? Paul. On 2017-04-11 6:57 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > I picked up a IBM 7208 222 8mm drive today. I got a bunch of tapes with > it. Going to wire it up and power up the machine. Do I need to do any > special config or commandsto make the drive available, or will it just show > up as tap02? > > I want to perform a complete system backup, is there any way to find how > big that will be so i can predict how many tapes I will need? How about > just listing files on the system and see how much space is taken up. I have > not been able to figure out how to list files yet... > > Slow going, but progress. Thankful this drive and tapes were still there at > the scrapyard. > > --Devin > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:20 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > >> From an experience with an older model ( so it may not be significant , >> I've just a 9401-p03 ), the only way to know if it likes another scsi tape >> unit is to try it... one may be liked and another no, depending on the tape >> firmware. Same consideration goes for booting from such tape drive. >> >> -----Messaggio originale----- >> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di devin >> davison via cctalk >> Inviato: marted? 11 aprile 2017 05:13 >> A: Pontus Pihlgren >> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: >> On-Topic Posts >> Oggetto: Re: IBM AS400 questions >> >> Made some progress with the AS400. Looks like one of the hard drives has >> failed, it stated that if another disk fails then there could be a loss of >> data. >> >> Plan was to back up the system to a couple of 8GB QIC tapes, however >> looking at my tapes they turned out to be only QIC525 MB tapes, and are not >> enough to back up the entire machine. Shopping around, i am not seeing 8GB >> tapes for less than $40, which is kinda costly. I do not know how to >> determine the total size of files on the system, or how many tapes the >> completed backup will be. There is a scsi port on the back of the machine. >> If i pick up an ibm branded drive, can i connect just any ibm branded tape >> drive, or do i need a specific model? I recall seeing a 8MM drive at the >> place where i got it , and possibly an external dat drive as well. I have >> plenty of dat tapes, I am trying to get a drive where the media has a >> higher capacity / lower cost. >> >> I read that there is a printer port on the back of my Infowindow II >> terminal, do i need a special ibm printer? if not, i have a good dot matrix >> printer here with a box of paper that should do the job. >> >> Leaving it powered down after tonight until i can make a complete save. >> Thanks to all for the advice so far. Really steep learning curve but quite >> an interesting machine. >> >> --Devin >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 2:33 AM, Pontus Pihlgren >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Devin >>> >>> Have you subscribed to MIDRANGE-L ? http://lists.midrange.com/ >>> >>> They might help you out. Also, if you would document your findings I >>> would be very greatful. I have a model 170 on my todo-list. >>> >>> /P >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 12:21:17PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote: >>>> Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 >>>> model >>> 170. >>>> I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a >>>> password >>> and i >>>> could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into >>>> the machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to >>>> back up the machine. I have a couple of tapes. >>>> >>>> I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the >>>> machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to >>>> reinstall and still have a licenced install. >>>> >>>> I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV >>>> command to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a >>>> similar command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are >>>> installed, cpu and memory details, etc. >>>> >>>> Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want >>>> to >>> get >>>> the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can >>>> reinstall the os and it have its license. >>>> >>>> --Devin >> > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:20 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > >> From an experience with an older model ( so it may not be significant , >> I've just a 9401-p03 ), the only way to know if it likes another scsi tape >> unit is to try it... one may be liked and another no, depending on the tape >> firmware. Same consideration goes for booting from such tape drive. >> >> -----Messaggio originale----- >> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di devin >> davison via cctalk >> Inviato: marted? 11 aprile 2017 05:13 >> A: Pontus Pihlgren >> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: >> On-Topic Posts >> Oggetto: Re: IBM AS400 questions >> >> Made some progress with the AS400. Looks like one of the hard drives has >> failed, it stated that if another disk fails then there could be a loss of >> data. >> >> Plan was to back up the system to a couple of 8GB QIC tapes, however >> looking at my tapes they turned out to be only QIC525 MB tapes, and are not >> enough to back up the entire machine. Shopping around, i am not seeing 8GB >> tapes for less than $40, which is kinda costly. I do not know how to >> determine the total size of files on the system, or how many tapes the >> completed backup will be. There is a scsi port on the back of the machine. >> If i pick up an ibm branded drive, can i connect just any ibm branded tape >> drive, or do i need a specific model? I recall seeing a 8MM drive at the >> place where i got it , and possibly an external dat drive as well. I have >> plenty of dat tapes, I am trying to get a drive where the media has a >> higher capacity / lower cost. >> >> I read that there is a printer port on the back of my Infowindow II >> terminal, do i need a special ibm printer? if not, i have a good dot matrix >> printer here with a box of paper that should do the job. >> >> Leaving it powered down after tonight until i can make a complete save. >> Thanks to all for the advice so far. Really steep learning curve but quite >> an interesting machine. >> >> --Devin >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 2:33 AM, Pontus Pihlgren >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Devin >>> >>> Have you subscribed to MIDRANGE-L ? http://lists.midrange.com/ >>> >>> They might help you out. Also, if you would document your findings I >>> would be very greatful. I have a model 170 on my todo-list. >>> >>> /P >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 12:21:17PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote: >>>> Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 >>>> model >>> 170. >>>> I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a >>>> password >>> and i >>>> could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into >>>> the machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to >>>> back up the machine. I have a couple of tapes. >>>> >>>> I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the >>>> machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to >>>> reinstall and still have a licenced install. >>>> >>>> I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV >>>> command to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a >>>> similar command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are >>>> installed, cpu and memory details, etc. >>>> >>>> Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want >>>> to >>> get >>>> the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can >>>> reinstall the os and it have its license. >>>> >>>> --Devin >> From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Apr 11 18:24:36 2017 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 20:24:36 -0300 Subject: C (was: The iAPX 432 and block languages) In-Reply-To: <20170411014329.GD24486@brevard.conman.org> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410213957.GC24486@brevard.conman.org> <20170410221422.3003C6472D93D@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> <20170411014329.GD24486@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20170411232440.695349D3A5C93@bart0183.email.locaweb.com.br> Sean Conner wrote two great posts on Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:43:29 -0400 These are all very good points. I agree I was exagerating by saying the iAPX432 and 8086 couldn't run C. After all, the language was born on the PDP-11 and that was limited to either 64KB or 128KB. So any C programs for that machine could be trivially recompiled to run on either Intel processor. But I certainly wouldn't want to port the C version of Spice to DOS, for example (I was given the job of porting the Fortran version of Spice from the PDP-11 to the Burroughs B6900 and can tell you that tales of Fortran's compatiblity are greatly exagerated, but that is another story). I also used QNX C which had some odd notation I have forgotten which allowed you to have pointers using the extra segment instead of the data segment. It was something like @cp instead of *cp. The reason I used [bp-2] instead of [bp] in my second example is that I supposed the latter was for the dynamic links (pointer to who called us) so I needed the static link (pointer to who defined us) to be somewhere else. I did not bother trying to remember how the ENTER and LEAVE instructions work so my examples probably are not compatible with them: https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2012/readings/i386/ENTER.htm My list should have included processors designed to run C. I won't put RISC architectures there though they were heavily influenced by studying the output of C compilers since they explicitly rejected the trend to "close the semantic gap". C: C-Machine, CRISP (Hobbit), ZPU The machines don't bother with a base pointer (frame pointer in the case of the 68000) register since C compilers can work without them. -- Jecel From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 11 18:37:29 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:37:29 -0400 Subject: C (was: The iAPX 432 and block languages) In-Reply-To: <20170411232440.695349D3A5C93@bart0183.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410213957.GC24486@brevard.conman.org> <20170410221422.3003C6472D93D@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> <20170411014329.GD24486@brevard.conman.org> <20170411232440.695349D3A5C93@bart0183.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <20170411233728.GB26413@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk once stated: > Sean Conner wrote two great posts on Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:43:29 -0400 > > These are all very good points. I agree I was exagerating by saying the > iAPX432 and 8086 couldn't run C. After all, the language was born on the > PDP-11 and that was limited to either 64KB or 128KB. So any C programs > for that machine could be trivially recompiled to run on either Intel > processor. But I certainly wouldn't want to port the C version of Spice > to DOS, for example (I was given the job of porting the Fortran version > of Spice from the PDP-11 to the Burroughs B6900 and can tell you that > tales of Fortran's compatiblity are greatly exagerated, but that is > another story). I can relate. I have the code to Viola [1] and it no longer compiles cleanly [2]. I have cleaned up the code enough to get it to produce an executable, but man ... the code ... it *barely* runs on a 32-bit system and immeidately crashes on a 64-bit system, mainly due to the deeply baked in assumption that sizeof(int) == sizeof(long) == sizeof(char *) == sizeof(void *) which is not always the case (even C says as much). But it was written in a time of flux, just after C was standardized and not everyone had an ANSI-C compiler. > The reason I used [bp-2] instead of [bp] in my second example is that I > supposed the latter was for the dynamic links (pointer to who called us) > so I needed the static link (pointer to who defined us) to be somewhere > else. I did not bother trying to remember how the ENTER and LEAVE > instructions work so my examples probably are not compatible with them: > > https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2012/readings/i386/ENTER.htm Yeah, I recently wrote code that used ENTER (works on both 32-bit and 64-bit x86 CPUs) just to figure out how it works. I never found the description clear and NONE of the examples actually used it for nested stack frames (sigh). -spc [1] http://www.viola.org/ [2] Conflicting types for malloc() and fprintf(), and use of an obsolete header. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 18:47:50 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 17:47:50 -0600 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <05e27e21-1fb1-6caa-765d-0d81956c8e55@sydex.com> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <03e9fe18-6da3-1111-13a8-ccb67b0b1fab@sydex.com> <557309EC-BD43-498E-8B03-852F50402A07@comcast.net> <05e27e21-1fb1-6caa-765d-0d81956c8e55@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2017 11:29 AM, "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" wrote: > This has me wondering about how the 432 people implemented FORTRAN. Oh, there's a very simple answer to that. They didn't! Early in the 8800/432 development (which started in 1975), Intel was developing their own language for it, generally in the Algol family. It's possible that they intended to support other languages, but Fortran definitely would have been a poor fit. When Ada came along, they decided that it was a reasonably good fit, and with the DoD pushing Ada, that would be an easier sell to customers than a proprietary language. Intel marketing basically claimed that the 432 was designed for Ada, though that wasn't really the case. The only two programming languages Intel supported on the 432 were: 1) Ada, using a cross-compiler written in Pascal and hosted on a VAX, to run on "real" 432 systems such as the 432/670 2) Object Programming Language (OPL), a Smalltalk dialect based on Rosetta Smalltalk, which only ran on the 432/100 demo board, a Multibus board inserted in a slot of an Intel MDS decelopment system. Late in the 432 timeline there was an unsupported port of XPL, but it did not generate native code. Apparently there was little concern for either Fortran or COBOL, the most widely used programming languages at the time. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 18:50:05 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 17:50:05 -0600 Subject: remember xvscan? In-Reply-To: <10391.212.108.17.1.1491908149.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <10391.212.108.17.1.1491908149.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2017 5:29 AM, "E. Groenenberg via cctalk" wrote: > Wasn't that not an add-on to 'xv' (xv-3.10a)? xvscan was based on xv but was sold including xv, with the xvscan price including the cost of an xv license. From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Apr 11 18:53:12 2017 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 20:53:12 -0300 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <03e9fe18-6da3-1111-13a8-ccb67b0b1fab@sydex.com> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <03e9fe18-6da3-1111-13a8-ccb67b0b1fab@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20170411235315.38E1A6999CC1E@bart0097.email.locaweb.com.br> Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote on Tue, 11 Apr 2017 09:37:27 -0700 > On 04/10/2017 02:23 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > When the 432 project (originally 8800) started, there weren't many > > people predicting that C (and its derivatives) would take over the world. > > That's the danger of a too-aggressive CISC, isn't it? I suppose that > it's safe to say that if you look under the hood of any modern CPU, > there's a RISC machine in there somewhere. I consider the heart of any modern high performance CPU to be a dataflow architecture (described as an "out of order execution engine") with a hardware to translate the macrocode (CISC or RISC) to the dataflow graph and tokens on the fly. -- Jecel From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Apr 11 18:49:11 2017 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 20:49:11 -0300 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <20170411141800.D9D0018C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170411141800.D9D0018C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170411235315.5F8446999BFAC@bart0097.email.locaweb.com.br> Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote on Tue, 11 Apr 2017 10:18:00 -0400 (EDT) > > From: Sean Conner > > > I really think it's for *this* reason (the handler() example) that C > > doesn't allow nested functions. > > I wouldn't be sure of that; I would tend to think that nested functions were > left out simply because they add complexity, and didn't add enough value to > outweigh that complexity. (In ~40 years of programming in C, I have never > missed them.) When block based languages evolved into modular languages (Ada, Modula-2) they added a system with two levels: public and private declarations. C got the same job done with its header files and separate compilation and eventually was able to enforce that with "static" function declarations. If you have these two levels you will rarely (if ever) need extra ones. -- Jecel From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 11 19:08:57 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 17:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C (was: The iAPX 432 and block languages) In-Reply-To: <20170411232440.695349D3A5C93@bart0183.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <20170410213957.GC24486@brevard.conman.org> <20170410221422.3003C6472D93D@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> <20170411014329.GD24486@brevard.conman.org> <20170411232440.695349D3A5C93@bart0183.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Apr 2017, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > These are all very good points. I agree I was exagerating by saying the > iAPX432 and 8086 couldn't run C. Or were you implying that nothing worthwhile has ever been written for 80x86 (in ANY language?)? That would be harder to argue with. C's greatest weakness, and C's greatest strength, is that it lets you do things that you shouldn't. (Such as putting a pointer into an int, etc.) As Holub titled one of his books, C gives you "enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot". If you stick to only doing things "the way that you are supposed to", then C code is actually pretty portable. But what's the fun in THAT? You have to take full responsibility for what you do with C. It is YOUR responsibility to decide what casts are safe to do. It is YOUR responsibility to put in all runtime error checking - if you don't check every denominator for a zero value, then any resulting black holes are YOUR responsibility. If you are sure that nothing can ever be out of range, then you can save object code by not putting in runtime error checking. The problem is, of course, that too many people are "sure", that shouldn't be. Hence, you get an amazing amount of software that can never be truly reliable. For example, if you know for sure that no file will ever be larger than 2GB, then you can get away with using a signed 32 bit "long" int for file size, or simply printf("%ld", FILESIZE) for displaying it. (Try using a sector editor (such as DEBUG) and changing the last 4 bytes of a DOS Directory entry to FFFF FFFFh.) I am, of course, embarrassed by the quality of most of the code that I have ever written. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 19:26:05 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 20:26:05 -0400 Subject: IBM AS400 questions In-Reply-To: <0cefdc42-2dd0-0179-f213-d430424053ca@gmail.com> References: <20170410063342.GH12631@Update.UU.SE> <005801d2b2ad$47adbb20$d7093160$@tin.it> <0cefdc42-2dd0-0179-f213-d430424053ca@gmail.com> Message-ID: I looked up some of the scsi card specs and it is compatible, connected and working good. I actually picked up two of the same tape drive, so that should be a good backup in case one should fail. I am doing a complete system backup now. --Devin On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > Devin, > > The 7208-222 is a high voltage differential device you will likely need a > tape IOP for that. Earlier you indicated that there was a SCSI like > connector on the back, was that on a PCI card? If so is there a 4 digit > number on the back of the card? > > Paul. > > > > On 2017-04-11 6:57 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > >> I picked up a IBM 7208 222 8mm drive today. I got a bunch of tapes with >> it. Going to wire it up and power up the machine. Do I need to do any >> special config or commandsto make the drive available, or will it just >> show >> up as tap02? >> >> I want to perform a complete system backup, is there any way to find how >> big that will be so i can predict how many tapes I will need? How about >> just listing files on the system and see how much space is taken up. I >> have >> not been able to figure out how to list files yet... >> >> Slow going, but progress. Thankful this drive and tapes were still there >> at >> the scrapyard. >> >> --Devin >> >> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:20 AM, Mazzini Alessandro >> wrote: >> >> From an experience with an older model ( so it may not be significant , >>> I've just a 9401-p03 ), the only way to know if it likes another scsi >>> tape >>> unit is to try it... one may be liked and another no, depending on the >>> tape >>> firmware. Same consideration goes for booting from such tape drive. >>> >>> -----Messaggio originale----- >>> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di devin >>> davison via cctalk >>> Inviato: marted? 11 aprile 2017 05:13 >>> A: Pontus Pihlgren >>> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: >>> On-Topic Posts >>> Oggetto: Re: IBM AS400 questions >>> >>> Made some progress with the AS400. Looks like one of the hard drives has >>> failed, it stated that if another disk fails then there could be a loss >>> of >>> data. >>> >>> Plan was to back up the system to a couple of 8GB QIC tapes, however >>> looking at my tapes they turned out to be only QIC525 MB tapes, and are >>> not >>> enough to back up the entire machine. Shopping around, i am not seeing >>> 8GB >>> tapes for less than $40, which is kinda costly. I do not know how to >>> determine the total size of files on the system, or how many tapes the >>> completed backup will be. There is a scsi port on the back of the >>> machine. >>> If i pick up an ibm branded drive, can i connect just any ibm branded >>> tape >>> drive, or do i need a specific model? I recall seeing a 8MM drive at the >>> place where i got it , and possibly an external dat drive as well. I have >>> plenty of dat tapes, I am trying to get a drive where the media has a >>> higher capacity / lower cost. >>> >>> I read that there is a printer port on the back of my Infowindow II >>> terminal, do i need a special ibm printer? if not, i have a good dot >>> matrix >>> printer here with a box of paper that should do the job. >>> >>> Leaving it powered down after tonight until i can make a complete save. >>> Thanks to all for the advice so far. Really steep learning curve but >>> quite >>> an interesting machine. >>> >>> --Devin >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 2:33 AM, Pontus Pihlgren >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Devin >>>> >>>> Have you subscribed to MIDRANGE-L ? http://lists.midrange.com/ >>>> >>>> They might help you out. Also, if you would document your findings I >>>> would be very greatful. I have a model 170 on my todo-list. >>>> >>>> /P >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 12:21:17PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 >>>>> model >>>>> >>>> 170. >>>> >>>>> I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a >>>>> password >>>>> >>>> and i >>>> >>>>> could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into >>>>> the machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to >>>>> back up the machine. I have a couple of tapes. >>>>> >>>>> I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the >>>>> machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to >>>>> reinstall and still have a licenced install. >>>>> >>>>> I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV >>>>> command to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a >>>>> similar command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are >>>>> installed, cpu and memory details, etc. >>>>> >>>>> Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want >>>>> to >>>>> >>>> get >>>> >>>>> the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can >>>>> reinstall the os and it have its license. >>>>> >>>>> --Devin >>>>> >>>> >>> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:20 AM, Mazzini Alessandro >> wrote: >> >> From an experience with an older model ( so it may not be significant , >>> I've just a 9401-p03 ), the only way to know if it likes another scsi >>> tape >>> unit is to try it... one may be liked and another no, depending on the >>> tape >>> firmware. Same consideration goes for booting from such tape drive. >>> >>> -----Messaggio originale----- >>> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di devin >>> davison via cctalk >>> Inviato: marted? 11 aprile 2017 05:13 >>> A: Pontus Pihlgren >>> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: >>> On-Topic Posts >>> Oggetto: Re: IBM AS400 questions >>> >>> Made some progress with the AS400. Looks like one of the hard drives has >>> failed, it stated that if another disk fails then there could be a loss >>> of >>> data. >>> >>> Plan was to back up the system to a couple of 8GB QIC tapes, however >>> looking at my tapes they turned out to be only QIC525 MB tapes, and are >>> not >>> enough to back up the entire machine. Shopping around, i am not seeing >>> 8GB >>> tapes for less than $40, which is kinda costly. I do not know how to >>> determine the total size of files on the system, or how many tapes the >>> completed backup will be. There is a scsi port on the back of the >>> machine. >>> If i pick up an ibm branded drive, can i connect just any ibm branded >>> tape >>> drive, or do i need a specific model? I recall seeing a 8MM drive at the >>> place where i got it , and possibly an external dat drive as well. I have >>> plenty of dat tapes, I am trying to get a drive where the media has a >>> higher capacity / lower cost. >>> >>> I read that there is a printer port on the back of my Infowindow II >>> terminal, do i need a special ibm printer? if not, i have a good dot >>> matrix >>> printer here with a box of paper that should do the job. >>> >>> Leaving it powered down after tonight until i can make a complete save. >>> Thanks to all for the advice so far. Really steep learning curve but >>> quite >>> an interesting machine. >>> >>> --Devin >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 2:33 AM, Pontus Pihlgren >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Devin >>>> >>>> Have you subscribed to MIDRANGE-L ? http://lists.midrange.com/ >>>> >>>> They might help you out. Also, if you would document your findings I >>>> would be very greatful. I have a model 170 on my todo-list. >>>> >>>> /P >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 12:21:17PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Alright, it was quite a while back that I picked up my ibm AS400 >>>>> model >>>>> >>>> 170. >>>> >>>>> I had asked some questions on the list, it was locked with a >>>>> password >>>>> >>>> and i >>>> >>>>> could not get into the machine. I finally got around to getting into >>>>> the machine and am at the main menu. Before i do anything, I want to >>>>> back up the machine. I have a couple of tapes. >>>>> >>>>> I am not familiar with os/400 at all, the intention is to backup the >>>>> machine so in the event of a hardware failure I will be able to >>>>> reinstall and still have a licenced install. >>>>> >>>>> I come from the sgi land, usually from the prom there is the HINV >>>>> command to give a nice hardware inventory of the machine, is there a >>>>> similar command in the ibm world? I want to find what options are >>>>> installed, cpu and memory details, etc. >>>>> >>>>> Any advice on what to do from here is much appreciated. I just want >>>>> to >>>>> >>>> get >>>> >>>>> the thing backed up and rest assured that if the drives fail i can >>>>> reinstall the os and it have its license. >>>>> >>>>> --Devin >>>>> >>>> >>> > From chd at chdickman.com Tue Apr 11 19:38:22 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 20:38:22 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? Message-ID: From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 11 19:44:50 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 17:44:50 -0700 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 11, 2017, at 5:38 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > Because people are too lazy to use Ada. Zane From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 11 19:51:20 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:51:20 -0500 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000401d2b326$e6d58dd0$b480a970$@classiccmp.org> I would suggest that the premise (?C is so evil?) of your question (?why is {C} so successful??) is incorrect. No C is not evil, yes it is wildly successful. Now the ++ in C++?. THAT is evil ;) J From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles Dickman via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 7:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 11 19:51:37 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 17:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Because "evil" and "successful" are not mutually exclusive. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 11 19:57:38 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 20:57:38 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73f0bfff-c4f2-067f-0f2f-44028dca7fe7@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-04-11 8:38 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > Google "worse is better". Richard P. Gabriel's phrase, I think. --T From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 11 19:57:41 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 17:57:41 -0700 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <03e9fe18-6da3-1111-13a8-ccb67b0b1fab@sydex.com> <557309EC-BD43-498E-8B03-852F50402A07@comcast.net> <05e27e21-1fb1-6caa-765d-0d81956c8e55@sydex.com> Message-ID: <957203d7-2044-0ca8-334a-f3791fff4a26@sydex.com> On 04/11/2017 04:47 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Apparently there was little concern for either Fortran or COBOL, the > most widely used programming languages at the time. So FORTRAN/Fortran and COBOL are still with us and the 432 is dust. There's a lesson there somewhere... --Chuck From chd at chdickman.com Tue Apr 11 20:00:17 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:00:17 -0400 Subject: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? Message-ID: From wilson at dbit.com Tue Apr 11 20:03:02 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:03:02 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170412010302.GA27754@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 08:38:22PM -0400, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: >Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? Seriously, I think the #1 reason is that K&R was fantasically well-written. If you barely skim that book, you know C. It's *almost* a good low(-ish)-level language, but unfortunately it's the wrong kind of low-level: it's designed mainly to be easy to compile, but access to bits and bytes is much more fiddly than it needs to be. It would have been nice if it had stolen FORTRAN-77's idea of declaring a variable in the size that you want (I'm talking about INTEGER*2 vs. INTEGER*4 etc.), instead of just "knowing" what the difference is between int and long and maybe long long on some architectures and using limits.h plus enough #ifs to probably, usually, get the size you meant. That plus the ability to specify endianness of variables, at least as an option (and also bit order for bit fields -- justifiably rarely used because we just can't trust them) would have made it a much better fit for the kinds of stuff it's so often used for (like touching on-disk structures or or device registers or stuff sent over the network w/o ending up in a ridiculous talk vs. ntalk situation). But instead it's just so lazy ... the compiler barely does anything, and even when you're *trying* to write portable code, you often fail w/o realizing it, and if it's not portable then it might as well be assembly and get the benefits that come with that. It's still better than lots of other languages. It's just not nearly as good at what it's *for* as it would have been with a bit more effort. John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 11 20:05:01 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 18:05:01 -0700 Subject: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?) In-Reply-To: <20170411235315.38E1A6999CC1E@bart0097.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <03e9fe18-6da3-1111-13a8-ccb67b0b1fab@sydex.com> <20170411235315.38E1A6999CC1E@bart0097.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <381895fb-7a41-6edb-1594-b94febf403a1@sydex.com> On 04/11/2017 04:53 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > I consider the heart of any modern high performance CPU to be a > dataflow architecture (described as an "out of order execution > engine") with a hardware to translate the macrocode (CISC or RISC) to > the dataflow graph and tokens on the fly. I wouldn't characterize an out-of-order execution scheduler as "dataflow", at least not in the traditional sense. Certainly, nobody that I was aware of ever categorized, say, a CDC 6600 as a dataflow machine. At least not in the same sense that I'd categorize a NEC uPD7281 as a dataflow device. --Chuck From chd at chdickman.com Tue Apr 11 20:19:42 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:19:42 -0400 Subject: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does anyone here even know what Siemens STL is? On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Apr 11 20:24:07 2017 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 22:24:07 -0300 Subject: dataflow (was: RTX-2000 processor PC/AT add-in card (any takers?)) In-Reply-To: <381895fb-7a41-6edb-1594-b94febf403a1@sydex.com> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <03e9fe18-6da3-1111-13a8-ccb67b0b1fab@sydex.com> <20170411235315.38E1A6999CC1E@bart0097.email.locaweb.com.br> <381895fb-7a41-6edb-1594-b94febf403a1@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20170412012411.E8E935E96AC0B@bart0137.email.locaweb.com.br> Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote on Tue, 11 Apr 2017 18:05:01 -0700 > On 04/11/2017 04:53 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > > > I consider the heart of any modern high performance CPU to be a > > dataflow architecture (described as an "out of order execution > > engine") with a hardware to translate the macrocode (CISC or RISC) to > > the dataflow graph and tokens on the fly. > I wouldn't characterize an out-of-order execution scheduler as > "dataflow", at least not in the traditional sense. I have never seen anybody else, including people whose research in the late 1980s was dataflow architectures, do so either. But I see an engine with 24 "in flight" instructions plus all the register renaming circuits and it sure looks the same to me. > Certainly, nobody that I was aware of ever categorized, say, a CDC 6600 > as a dataflow machine. I was not aware that there had been any out of order implementations after the IBM ACS until the second half of the 1990s. Given Cray's passion for simplicity, I would not expect any of his designs to use o-o-o (specially one as early as the CDC 6600). > At least not in the same sense that I'd categorize a NEC uPD7281 as a > dataflow device. That is the one I am most familiar with, along with the Manchester Dataflow Machine and the MIT Tagged Token machine. An interesting modern dataflow architecture is the TRIPS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIPS_architecture -- Jecel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 11 20:46:32 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 18:46:32 -0700 Subject: dataflow In-Reply-To: <20170412012411.E8E935E96AC0B@bart0137.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <703218356.543930.1491849694951.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <703218356.543930.1491849694951@mail.yahoo.com> <03e9fe18-6da3-1111-13a8-ccb67b0b1fab@sydex.com> <20170411235315.38E1A6999CC1E@bart0097.email.locaweb.com.br> <381895fb-7a41-6edb-1594-b94febf403a1@sydex.com> <20170412012411.E8E935E96AC0B@bart0137.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: On 04/11/2017 06:24 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > > I was not aware that there had been any out of order implementations > after the IBM ACS until the second half of the 1990s. Given Cray's > passion for simplicity, I would not expect any of his designs to use > o-o-o (specially one as early as the CDC 6600). Study the architecture sometime--instructions were *issued* in order, but sent to different functional units with differing execution times. Since there were two increment units (which handled loads and stores), the legendary "store out of order" problem had already showed its ugly face--in 1964. Really, nihil sub sole novum in much of this field. --Chuck From chd at chdickman.com Tue Apr 11 21:03:46 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 22:03:46 -0400 Subject: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting. I make a comment about C and get a flurry of responses, but ask a question about a programming language that is also very common for machine control and get no response at all. Not even a recognition of its existence. Siemens STL ist a programming language for machine controllers. It is oriented towards Boolean operations and extended for integer and real data types. Symbolic addressing is almost completely absent. On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:19 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > Does anyone here even know what Siemens STL is? > > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 11 21:12:12 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 22:12:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? Message-ID: <20170412021212.B6C4618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Wilson > It would have been nice if it had stolen FORTRAN-77's idea of declaring > a variable in the size that you want (I'm talking about INTEGER*2 vs. > INTEGER*4 etc.), instead of just "knowing" what the difference is > between int and long Back in the late 70's, trying to write network code, even before we actually ported anything (but could see it coming in the distance), it became clear that C's type system was pretty worthless. We defined a whole new type system, using syntax of the form 'XXXY', where 'XXX' was the type (unsigned, bit field, etc) and 'Y' was a character giving the length (1, 2, 4, bytes; the machine's native word length - 'w'; etc, etc). So 'bitw' was a bit-field of the machine's native word length, 'unss' was a 16-bit unsigned, etc, etc. So then we had an #include file "pdefs.h" which, depending on the setting of 'cc' -Dxxx command flags (this was before they starting getting set automatically to indicate the machine type) included '11defs.h' or '68defs.h' or whatever the case might be), so there were no #ifdef's in the source files at all. We used this everywhere, and it worked very well indeed. So well that, at one point, on a dare, I moved our real-time OS to a new architecture (the 29K) overnight (really - started at around 5PM one day, and had it running the next day sometime - forget exactly when). Well, I'd already gotten the debugger (written in C in the same style, with a bit of assembler for the low-level operations) running on the 29K, so I knew where all the pot-holes were, but still... Most of the code modules were supposed to be portable .. and they just were. Didn't have to touch it, just compiled for the new machine (so the exact same source compiled for both, no ugly #ifdef's, just compile and go). > if it's not portable then it might as well be assembly and get the > benefits that come with that. Sorry, I don't agree. It _is_ possible to write portable code, but even ignoring that, the benfits of writing in a higher-level language (good control structures, complex expressions, etc, etc) are well worth it. I had the pleasure of working with the best MACRO-11 code I'e ever seen (a real-time OS called 'MOS'), where the guy who wrote it (Jim Mathis) had worked out a sdet of macro definitions that allowed him to define structures (and the PDP-11 had an addressing mode, with a pointer to the base of the structure in a register, that allowed you to access elements) - but even so, it wasn't as good a tool as C. Like I said, control structures, complex expressions etc all make things so much clearer in C - which means they are easier to understand (when in someone else's code), easier to debug, easier to modify, yadda-yadda. Unless I were writing code that I _simply could not do in C_, I would not use assembler. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 11 21:32:37 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:32:37 -0700 Subject: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12fab63b-50bb-d8f8-7571-a3674c5de89a@sydex.com> On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting. > > I make a comment about C and get a flurry of responses, but ask a > question about a programming language that is also very common for > machine control and get no response at all. Not even a recognition > of its existence. I don't think that you're being quite fair. There are boatloads of specialized application programming languages--I rarely pay attention to any of them, figuring that after your first dozen or so, it's easy enough to add another one. Heck, I may even have some STL stashed away in my collection of Siemens PG-685 floppies. I never was interested in looking. --Chuck From brian at marstella.net Tue Apr 11 22:57:42 2017 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 23:57:42 -0400 Subject: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: <12fab63b-50bb-d8f8-7571-a3674c5de89a@sydex.com> References: <12fab63b-50bb-d8f8-7571-a3674c5de89a@sydex.com> Message-ID: I worked with STL some but am much more familiar with structured text as used by Rockwell/Allen-Bradley. However, my first exposure to PLCs after getting out of the Navy back in 1991 was the Mitsubishi A series with a GPP for a programmer. I found that one interesting because you could program in ladder mode or switch to the other mode (which I can't remember the name of) that looked exactly like assembly. The two modes were interchangeable as far as I could tell. On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 10:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting. > > > > I make a comment about C and get a flurry of responses, but ask a > > question about a programming language that is also very common for > > machine control and get no response at all. Not even a recognition > > of its existence. > > > I don't think that you're being quite fair. There are boatloads of > specialized application programming languages--I rarely pay attention to > any of them, figuring that after your first dozen or so, it's easy > enough to add another one. > > Heck, I may even have some STL stashed away in my collection of Siemens > PG-685 floppies. I never was interested in looking. > > --Chuck > > From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Apr 12 00:59:33 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 01:59:33 -0400 Subject: GoFundMe for Cap'n Crunch Message-ID: <101b3380-7840-b729-cd42-e9963354e6df@snarc.net> https://www.gofundme.com/crunch-medical-fund Help if you can. We all owe a debt to John Draper aka the Cap'n. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From leifj at mnt.se Wed Apr 12 01:55:53 2017 From: leifj at mnt.se (Leif Johansson) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:55:53 +0200 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170412021212.B6C4618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170412021212.B6C4618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6cb606f3-f3d3-8c3e-6ba2-53e1e4734c3a@mnt.se> > > if it's not portable then it might as well be assembly and get the > > benefits that come with that. > > Sorry, I don't agree. It _is_ possible to write portable code, but even > ignoring that, the benfits of writing in a higher-level language (good > control structures, complex expressions, etc, etc) are well worth it. C is like sports cars: A lot of people want them, some can afford them but very few can actually drive them. From ams at gnu.org Wed Apr 12 04:24:45 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 05:24:45 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170412021212.B6C4618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (message from Noel Chiappa via cctalk on Tue, 11 Apr 2017 22:12:12 -0400 (EDT)) References: <20170412021212.B6C4618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > if it's not portable then it might as well be assembly and get the > benefits that come with that. Sorry, I don't agree. It _is_ possible to write portable code, but even ignoring that, the benfits of writing in a higher-level language (good control structures, complex expressions, etc, etc) are well worth it. Well... No even the following program: int main (void) { return 0; } is guaranteed to work, so much for portablility, huh? From kspt.tor at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 05:11:23 2017 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:11:23 +0200 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <6cb606f3-f3d3-8c3e-6ba2-53e1e4734c3a@mnt.se> References: <20170412021212.B6C4618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6cb606f3-f3d3-8c3e-6ba2-53e1e4734c3a@mnt.se> Message-ID: > C is like sports cars: A lot of people want them, some can afford them > but very few can actually drive them. I completely disagree. That is just a made-up comparision. E.g.: C compilers are for the most part free (as in 'gratis') these days. And there a probably more competent C programmers around than competent-whatever-else. Many incompetent ones, sure, but that's just because of sheer numbers. And it's much easier to be incompetent in C++ or what have you. In other words: C is not like sports cars at all. At least not for the reasons listed. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 05:50:00 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:50:00 +0100 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d2b37a$8a500e10$9ef02a30$@outlook.com> ?C? is successful because it is evil. It is so easy to write a piece of dirty code that will do the job in hand, on the current platform, that is devoid of error checking but which gets the jobs done. It becomes evil when the code is re-purposed from a one off into production code. Writing good robust code in ?C? is hard. Verifying its robust is even harder. So it doesn?t get done? .. I used to think of ?C? as a tool that would allow you to shoot yourself in the foot in all the same ways as you had available in assembler, plus a few more, but much more quickly? Dave From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles Dickman via cctalk Sent: 12 April 2017 01:38 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? From chd at chdickman.com Wed Apr 12 07:26:35 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:26:35 -0400 Subject: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: <12fab63b-50bb-d8f8-7571-a3674c5de89a@sydex.com> References: <12fab63b-50bb-d8f8-7571-a3674c5de89a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 10:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I don't think that you're being quite fair. There are boatloads of > specialized application programming languages--I rarely pay attention to > any of them, figuring that after your first dozen or so, it's easy > enough to add another one. True, I went a bit overboard. The puzzling (and frustrating) thing about these industrial control languages is how primitive they are. There is lots of talk about IIoT and Industry 4.0, but at the bottom much of it is essentially handed written machine code. From leifj at mnt.se Wed Apr 12 07:04:47 2017 From: leifj at mnt.se (Leif Johansson) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:04:47 +0200 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412021212.B6C4618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6cb606f3-f3d3-8c3e-6ba2-53e1e4734c3a@mnt.se> Message-ID: <56ef92a9-1a8f-e38a-ce36-526529c61786@mnt.se> On 2017-04-12 12:11, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: >> C is like sports cars: A lot of people want them, some can afford them >> but very few can actually drive them. > > I completely disagree. That is just a made-up comparision. E.g.: C > compilers are for the most part free (as in 'gratis') these days. And > there a probably more competent C programmers around than > competent-whatever-else. Many incompetent ones, sure, but that's just > because of sheer numbers. And it's much easier to be incompetent in > C++ or what have you. > In other words: C is not like sports cars at all. At least not for the > reasons listed. > I regularly hire coders and from where I sit, finding experienced C coders is like finding a pot of gold. Also I didn't mean "a sports car" as in "expensive" but "rare, powerful and very cool". I still wouldn't trust most people to drive one. Cheers Leif From shawn-gordon at cox.net Wed Apr 12 09:00:02 2017 From: shawn-gordon at cox.net (Shawn Gordon) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 07:00:02 -0700 Subject: GoFundMe for Cap'n Crunch In-Reply-To: <7Mwv1v00V1eJxHz01Mwx8B> References: <7Mwv1v00V1eJxHz01Mwx8B> Message-ID: <58EE32E2.7060201@cox.net> This is the 2nd or 3rd fundraising campaign for him in the last year. Anonabox did one last year too. On 4/11/2017 10:59 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > https://www.gofundme.com/crunch-medical-fund > > Help if you can. > > We all owe a debt to John Draper aka the Cap'n. > > > ________________________________ > Evan Koblentz, director > Vintage Computer Federation > a 501(c)3 educational non-profit > > evan at vcfed.org > (646) 546-9999 > > www.vcfed.org > facebook.com/vcfederation > twitter.com/vcfederation > From ams at gnu.org Wed Apr 12 09:50:38 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:50:38 -0400 Subject: LOD bands for MIT CADR Message-ID: Anyone seen or got any? From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Apr 12 09:51:13 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:51:13 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity Message-ID: So, I just picked up an MISE from Bartlett Labs (cause I really liked the M3SE I had) and decided to revive one of my TRS-80 MOdel I's. In my box of "stuff" I found an interesting ribbon cable the function of which I don't know. It is a 40 pin to 50 pin ribbon cable with a black box connecting them that is labeled TANDY. I know of nothing the Tandy made that used a 50 pin connector other than a hard disk. Could that be what this is for? Anybody ever seen one? I no longer have any Tandy External HD's but then, with things like MISE and FreHD why would one still want one other than for nostalgia. bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 12 09:57:07 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? Message-ID: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Alfred M. Szmidt > No even the following program: > int main (void) { return 0; } > is guaranteed to work I'm missing something: why not? Noel PS: There probably is something to the sports car analogy, but I'm not going to take a position on that one! :-) Interesting side-question though: is assembler more or less like a sports car than C? :-) From turing at shaw.ca Wed Apr 12 10:08:53 2017 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 09:08:53 -0600 (MDT) Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1758278411.68116114.1492009733836.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Assembler is a sports car kit. From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 7:57:07 AM Subject: Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? > From: Alfred M. Szmidt > No even the following program: > int main (void) { return 0; } > is guaranteed to work I'm missing something: why not? Noel PS: There probably is something to the sports car analogy, but I'm not going to take a position on that one! :-) Interesting side-question though: is assembler more or less like a sports car than C? :-) From wilson at dbit.com Wed Apr 12 10:22:57 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:22:57 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <1758278411.68116114.1492009733836.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1758278411.68116114.1492009733836.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <20170412152257.GA12457@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 09:08:53AM -0600, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >Assembler is a sports car kit. I'd say it's more like a motorcycle -- it does the most with the least and it's SO FUN to ride. But if you don't know how, it seems impossible, and safety is entirely your problem. John Wilson D Bit From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 10:31:59 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:31:59 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > So, I just picked up an MISE from Bartlett Labs (cause I really liked > the M3SE I had) and decided to revive one of my TRS-80 MOdel I's. > In my box of "stuff" I found an interesting ribbon cable the function > of which I don't know. It is a 40 pin to 50 pin ribbon cable with a > black box connecting them that is labeled TANDY. I know of nothing > the Tandy made that used a 50 pin connector other than a hard disk. > Could that be what this is for? Anybody ever seen one? I no longer > have any Tandy External HD's but then, with things like MISE and FreHD > why would one still want one other than for nostalgia. > > bill Although I never had one, I beleive Tandy made an adapter that plugged into the Model 1 expansion bus (40 pin) and gave you a (cut down?) Model 3 expansion bus (50 pin). As you suggest it was commonly used to connect Model 3 hard disks to the Model 1, but I think it worked with some other devices too. -tony From ethan at 757.org Wed Apr 12 10:34:09 2017 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Chip in first Apple AirPort WiFi In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d2ab0f$1d388c30$57a9a490$@computer.org> Message-ID: > If I recall correctly, as you've noted it was a WaveLAN / Orinoco silver > card ('HERMES' chipset), connected via PCMCIA to a SBC based around an AMD > ELAN SC400 - 33AC 486-like CPU. It had something like a couple megs of RAM > and maybe 512K of FLASH. I don't know what OS it ran, if anything 'off the > shelf' > Why do you ask? One of the early Apple Airports ran NetBSD, I believe supported by Wasabi Systems originally of NYC, then Norfolk VA. Not sure if it was the first. I still have a pre-wifi 13" long ISA WaveLan card that is in the 915mhz ISM band sitting on a shelf. -- Ethan O'Toole From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 10:45:18 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:45:18 -0500 Subject: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Herd of it Siemens has destroyed so many good products by buying them out blah.... On Apr 11, 2017 9:03 PM, "Charles Dickman via cctalk" wrote: > The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting. > > I make a comment about C and get a flurry of responses, but ask a > question about a programming language that is also very common for > machine control and get no response at all. Not even a recognition of > its existence. > > Siemens STL ist a programming language for machine controllers. It is > oriented towards Boolean operations and extended for integer and real > data types. Symbolic addressing is almost completely absent. > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:19 PM, Charles Dickman > wrote: > > Does anyone here even know what Siemens STL is? > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Charles Dickman > wrote: > >> > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 10:45:36 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:45:36 -0300 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Isn't this the buffered expansion cable? 2017-04-12 12:31 GMT-03:00 Tony Duell via cctalk : > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > > > So, I just picked up an MISE from Bartlett Labs (cause I really liked > > the M3SE I had) and decided to revive one of my TRS-80 MOdel I's. > > In my box of "stuff" I found an interesting ribbon cable the function > > of which I don't know. It is a 40 pin to 50 pin ribbon cable with a > > black box connecting them that is labeled TANDY. I know of nothing > > the Tandy made that used a 50 pin connector other than a hard disk. > > Could that be what this is for? Anybody ever seen one? I no longer > > have any Tandy External HD's but then, with things like MISE and FreHD > > why would one still want one other than for nostalgia. > > > > bill > > Although I never had one, I beleive Tandy made an adapter that plugged > into the Model 1 expansion bus (40 pin) and gave you a (cut down?) > Model 3 expansion bus (50 pin). As you suggest it was commonly used > to connect Model 3 hard disks to the Model 1, but I think it worked with > some other devices too. > > -tony > From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 12 10:55:16 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:55:16 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Noel Chiappa via cctalk once stated: > > From: Alfred M. Szmidt > > > No even the following program: > > int main (void) { return 0; } > > is guaranteed to work > > I'm missing something: why not? Yeah, I'm having a hard time with that too. I mean, pedantically, it should be: #include int main(void) { return EXIT_SUCCESS; } where EXIT_SUCCESS is 0 on every plaform except for some obscure system no one has heard of but managed to influence the C committee back in the late 80s. > PS: There probably is something to the sports car analogy, but I'm not going > to take a position on that one! :-) Interesting side-question though: is > assembler more or less like a sports car than C? :-) One thing for sure---assembly langauge (for a given architecture) is probably better defined (less undefined/underspecified behavior) than C. -spc From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 12 11:15:56 2017 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 17:15:56 +0100 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <1758278411.68116114.1492009733836.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1758278411.68116114.1492009733836.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <61795dc1-e540-eefc-112f-2c9e785a9b15@btinternet.com> On 12/04/2017 16:08, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > Assembler is a sports car kit. > > From: "cctalk" > To: "cctalk" > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 7:57:07 AM > Subject: Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? > >> From: Alfred M. Szmidt >> No even the following program: >> int main (void) { return 0; } >> is guaranteed to work > I'm missing something: why not? > > Noel > > PS: There probably is something to the sports car analogy, but I'm not going > to take a position on that one! :-) Interesting side-question though: is > assembler more or less like a sports car than C? :-) All computer computer languages are only as good or bad as the person using them. Rod -- There is no wrong or right Nor black and white. Just darkness and light From isking at uw.edu Wed Apr 12 11:24:37 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 09:24:37 -0700 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <61795dc1-e540-eefc-112f-2c9e785a9b15@btinternet.com> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1758278411.68116114.1492009733836.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <61795dc1-e540-eefc-112f-2c9e785a9b15@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Weighing in on the C vs. assembler subthread: modern processors are like exotic sportscars, in that pretty much anyone can drive the thing to the corner grocery but it takes a lot of skill to get the best performance out of it. Load/store superscalar architectures benefit enormously from various tricks that optimizing compilers do. Sure, you can code those tricksk in assembler, but for any program other than the most trivial it becomes a daunting task. Compiled C also supports writing sustainable code. Use as many intermediate variables as you like to clarify what your code is trying to do - the compiler will optimize them out of existence. This can make troubleshooting more difficult, but that's why you turn off the optimization for debug builds. C vs. anything else? I think John Wilson was spot on, it's like a motorcycle and if you don't know what you're doing you can hurt yourself. Personally, I usually use Python for application code and C if I'm doing something down 'on the metal' that has to be performant (e.g., device drivers). -- Ian On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 12/04/2017 16:08, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > >> Assembler is a sports car kit. >> >> From: "cctalk" >> To: "cctalk" >> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu >> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 7:57:07 AM >> Subject: Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? >> >> From: Alfred M. Szmidt >>> No even the following program: >>> int main (void) { return 0; } >>> is guaranteed to work >>> >> I'm missing something: why not? >> >> Noel >> >> PS: There probably is something to the sports car analogy, but I'm not >> going >> to take a position on that one! :-) Interesting side-question though: is >> assembler more or less like a sports car than C? :-) >> > All computer computer languages are only as good or bad as the person > using them. > > Rod > > -- > There is no wrong or right > Nor black and white. > Just darkness and light > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Apr 12 11:41:48 2017 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 18:41:48 +0200 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1492015308.28161.18.camel@agj.net> ons 2017-04-12 klockan 10:57 -0400 skrev Noel Chiappa via cctalk: > > From: Alfred M. Szmidt > > > No even the following program: > > int main (void) { return 0; } > > is guaranteed to work > > I'm missing something: why not? > > Noel > If the compiler doesn't have ANSI C prototypes. What is the meaning of '0' (and the return call itself) on different platforms ? C is special because so much of a program's behaviour is 'undefined' and so everything which goes is ok and so inherently non-portable. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Apr 12 11:46:29 2017 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 18:46:29 +0200 Subject: Another language : SDL Message-ID: <1492015589.28161.21.camel@agj.net> Anyone with access to a distribution of SDT (Telelogik's SDL programming system) for old era SunOS 4 ? I have a SS10 which is a beggar for SDT (or KEE or Frame.) From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Apr 12 12:19:22 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 17:19:22 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/12/2017 11:45 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Isn't this the buffered expansion cable? > No, the buffered Expansion Interface cable is 40 pin to 40 pin and very short. This is 3 feet long which would be a disaster for the EI. :-) bill From ams at gnu.org Wed Apr 12 12:26:00 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:26:00 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (message from Noel Chiappa via cctalk on Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:57:07 -0400 (EDT)) References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > From: Alfred M. Szmidt > No even the following program: > int main (void) { return 0; } > is guaranteed to work I'm missing something: why not? It boils down to pedantism. The encoding of the above is ASCII, and the encoding type of a C program is implementation defined. The other thing is that the abstract machine defined in C can be utterly bogus, i.e. not capable of executing anything due to various implementation specified environment limitations. Ofcourse, this is all academic ... and I don't know any such idiotic implementation. From ams at gnu.org Wed Apr 12 12:26:00 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:26:00 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> (message from Sean Conner via cctalk on Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:55:16 -0400) References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: It was thus said that the Great Noel Chiappa via cctalk once stated: > > From: Alfred M. Szmidt > > > No even the following program: > > int main (void) { return 0; } > > is guaranteed to work > > I'm missing something: why not? Yeah, I'm having a hard time with that too. I mean, pedantically, it should be: #include int main(void) { return EXIT_SUCCESS; } Pedantically, it does not matter -- a return from main is equivalent to an exit(), and exit(0) is sensibly defined, and EXIT_SUCCESS can also be different from 0 (even though I don't think such a platform exists). Similiarly for EXIT_FAILURE ... From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Apr 12 12:26:23 2017 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 17:26:23 +0000 Subject: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? Message-ID: Charles Dickman wrote: > The puzzling (and frustrating) thing about these industrial control > languages is how primitive they are. There is lots of talk about IIoT > and Industry 4.0, but at the bottom much of it is essentially handed > written machine code. Well, I still get to program in ladder logic and deal with real relay control systems every single day at my day job. Ladder logic, most computer guys wouldn't even recognize that as a computer language. Still decades old. At the other end "modern" is the LUA scripting language of the ESP8266. That's almost exactly like the first time I programmed a TRS-80 or Apple II except it has built-in WiFi and it's a lot easier to get at the GPIO pins and it only costs $5. Tim N3QE From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 12 12:36:27 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:36:27 -0700 Subject: Another language : SDL In-Reply-To: <1492015589.28161.21.camel@agj.net> References: <1492015589.28161.21.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On 04/12/2017 09:46 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > Anyone with access to a distribution of SDT (Telelogik's SDL > programming system) for old era SunOS 4 ? I have a SS10 which is a > beggar for SDT (or KEE or Frame.) Well, there you go--another reason for the tower of Babel. STL, at first glance for me, brings up "Standard Template Library". I have no doubt that there are at least a half-dozen other language-related meanings for this acronym. SDL = System Definition Language, from the 1960s, almost completely forgotten now. Then there's SDL = Specification and Description Language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specification_and_Description_Language If I had to shake a stick at all computer languages, I'd run out of sticks. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 12 12:48:53 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:48:53 -0700 Subject: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting. > > I make a comment about C and get a flurry of responses, but ask a > question about a programming language that is also very common for > machine control and get no response at all. Not even a recognition > of its existence. > > Siemens STL ist a programming language for machine controllers. It > is oriented towards Boolean operations and extended for integer and > real data types. Symbolic addressing is almost completely absent. You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area. FWIW, "STL" in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List". Why it isn't "SL" is anyone's guess. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 12 12:54:03 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when > your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area. > > FWIW, "STL" in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List". Why it > isn't "SL" is anyone's guess. > I kept trying to figure out how anyone was going to program a Stereo Lithography file. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 12 13:20:11 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:20:11 -0700 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412021212.B6C4618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <090cca34-0cc5-bf94-0a52-7d3dd98a555b@sydex.com> I think a better question is "Why do you choose to write C (or any other language)?" I can speak for myself--I can't say for sure, but I've written at least hundreds of thousands of line of assembly (not "assembler", please!) language, much of it on mainframes, back when mainframes were fairly slow and code needed to be compact and fast. You do develop discipline in coding, realizing the payoff when someone drops a 6" thick assembly listing on your desk with the attached yellow sheet that says "There's a problem somewhere in this; please fix for Friday's build." I'd had a brush with another systems programming language, CDC SYMPL, which resembled PL/I, but it was nascent and not entirely accepted by management at the time. FORTRAN was used for quite a few system utilities and, of course, bits of the FORTRAN compiler itself. When I moved to the then-new Intel 8080, there were only about two choices (other than straight machine code, which I've also used on older machines); assembly and PL/M (from Intel). PL/M was great for "quick and dirty" programs, but your polished code and final product usually turned out to be assembly. The 8080 was slow and memory was expensive. In the late 70s, I became acquainted with K&R C and thought it was a good idea. But C on the 8-bitters, particularly the 8080 didn't fare well in either speed or memory. Trying to deal with on-stack local variables on architecture with no stack-relative addressing was a nightmare. The z80 was better for this. When the 8086 and Microsoft came along, the picture changed dramatically. You pretty much had to have Lattice C if you were an OEM developing your own custom adaptation of MS-DOS--and if you were going to use Xenix, C was part of the package. I still wrote some assembly, for obvious reasons; i.e, you can't get to some machine specific features without it, but more of my code became an admixture, with much of the assembly being inline code, rather than separate assemblies. One drawback of C was (and still is) the weak preprocessor, which pales in comparison to that of, say, PL/I. Small MCU programming took me back to assembly, which was a strange experience, as most MCU (e.g. AVR, PIC 8-bit) assemblers are pretty brain-dead when compared with full-featured relatives. I'm currently doing a lot of ARM programming and wouldn't even consider assembly, unless it was for a single instruction or two. If carefully coded, C is quite portable (note the big "if"). I've written C++ also, when it seemed to be logical. For me, the point of OOP is object reuse and much of my work involved one-time applications. So I still fall back to C. One good or bad thing about C is that it removes uncommon features, so that you don't get access to the parity branches or the special instructions (e.g. AAM) which does enhance the portability of code. Could I do my work in Ada? Sure--I like the language. But the likelihood of finding a good, free Ada compiler for a specific platform can be fairly small. --Chuck From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 12 13:28:00 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:28:00 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170412182800.GC21568@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Alfred M. Szmidt via cctalk once stated: > > > From: Alfred M. Szmidt > > > No even the following program: > > int main (void) { return 0; } > > is guaranteed to work > > I'm missing something: why not? > > It boils down to pedantism. The encoding of the above is ASCII, and > the encoding type of a C program is implementation defined. Name *ONE* computer langauge where this *ISN'T* the case. Until then, I'll consider this a completely bogus claim. Meanwhile, is *this* better? ??=include int main(void) ??< return EXIT_SUCCESS; ??> So that it might be possible to convert this obviously ASCII rendition of a C progran into EBCDIC? > The other > thing is that the abstract machine defined in C can be utterly bogus, > i.e. not capable of executing anything due to various implementation > specified environment limitations. Citation required. Plus a real-world example. Because otherwise I think you're skirting very close to Troll Territory here ... > Ofcourse, this is all academic ... and I don't know any such idiotic > implementation. Or an annoying level of pedanticism here ... -spc (Seriously, citation required ... ) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 13:28:54 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:28:54 -0500 Subject: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Modicon, ge faunic, Allen Bradly, Allen Heath, hewert Rand, Siemens, abb, idec, square d, some I know I'm forgeting On Apr 12, 2017 12:54 PM, "geneb via cctalk" wrote: > On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when >> your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area. >> >> FWIW, "STL" in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List". Why it >> isn't "SL" is anyone's guess. >> >> I kept trying to figure out how anyone was going to program a Stereo > Lithography file. :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 12 13:43:14 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:43:14 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20170412184314.GE21568@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Alfred M. Szmidt once stated: > It was thus said that the Great Noel Chiappa via cctalk once stated: > > > From: Alfred M. Szmidt > > > > > No even the following program: > > > int main (void) { return 0; } > > > is guaranteed to work > > > > I'm missing something: why not? > > Yeah, I'm having a hard time with that too. I mean, pedantically, it > should be: > > > #include > int main(void) { return EXIT_SUCCESS; } > > Pedantically, it does not matter -- a return from main is equivalent > to an exit(), and exit(0) is sensibly defined, and EXIT_SUCCESS can > also be different from 0 (even though I don't think such a platform > exists). > > Similiarly for EXIT_FAILURE ... There's this (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8867871/should-i-return-exit-success-or-0-from-main/8868139#8868139): Somebody asked about OpenVMS. I haven't used it in a long time, but as I recall odd status values generally denote success while even values denote failure. The C implementation maps 0 to 1, so that return 0; indicates successful termination. Other values are passed unchanged, so return 1; also indicates successful termination. EXIT_FAILURE would have a non-zero even value. And certainly VMS is on topic for this list. -spc (So ... pedantically speaking, who's correct?) From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Apr 12 13:52:12 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:52:12 -0600 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170412184314.GE21568@brevard.conman.org> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <20170412184314.GE21568@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Alfred M. Szmidt once stated: >> It was thus said that the Great Noel Chiappa via cctalk once stated: >> > > From: Alfred M. Szmidt >> > >> > > No even the following program: >> > > int main (void) { return 0; } >> > > is guaranteed to work >> > >> > I'm missing something: why not? >> >> Yeah, I'm having a hard time with that too. I mean, pedantically, it >> should be: >> >> >> #include >> int main(void) { return EXIT_SUCCESS; } >> >> Pedantically, it does not matter -- a return from main is equivalent >> to an exit(), and exit(0) is sensibly defined, and EXIT_SUCCESS can >> also be different from 0 (even though I don't think such a platform >> exists). >> >> Similiarly for EXIT_FAILURE ... > > There's this > (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8867871/should-i-return-exit-success-or-0-from-main/8868139#8868139): > > Somebody asked about OpenVMS. I haven't used it in a long time, but > as I recall odd status values generally denote success while even > values denote failure. The C implementation maps 0 to 1, so that > return 0; indicates successful termination. Other values are passed > unchanged, so return 1; also indicates successful termination. > EXIT_FAILURE would have a non-zero even value. > > And certainly VMS is on topic for this list. The answer is 'it depends' on VMS. I can't recall if it was the C runtime that was part of VMS, or that was installed by the compiler, but this was version dependent. The earliest versions of the compiler that we had, running on 4.4 didn't do the mapping. By the time we'd upgraded to 4.7 and to a newer compiler, the mapping did happen. Before exit was a thin wrapper on sys$exit(), but after it wasn't. This was across both the DEC CC compiler, and the version of gcc available back in the late 1980's. Interestingly, the old version of the manual/help file didn't have EXIT_SUCCESS in it, but the new version did, if memory isn't failing me today. There were a lot of programs that printed the same message when exit(0) happened, which is why DEC had to fix it. There was just too many of them. It's my recollection that it mapped values < 256 in some way that was special, and values > 256 it passed to sys$exit since all the facilities you'd create would have high bits set. But that was coming up on like 30 years ago, so maybe the exact details fail me. I do know that it change from one version to the next. Warner From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 12 13:52:19 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:52:19 -0600 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <1758278411.68116114.1492009733836.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1758278411.68116114.1492009733836.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 4/12/2017 9:08 AM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > Assembler is a sports car kit. > More like the VW BUG. It gets you there, but needs more ... I suspect C was successful just because the 11 could handle characters cleanly. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 12 13:58:11 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:58:11 -0600 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <61795dc1-e540-eefc-112f-2c9e785a9b15@btinternet.com> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1758278411.68116114.1492009733836.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <61795dc1-e540-eefc-112f-2c9e785a9b15@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/2017 10:15 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > All computer computer languages are only as good or bad as the person > using them. I suspect today that few people map any computer langauges to real hardware other than virtual machines. > Rod Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 12 14:05:14 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:05:14 -0700 Subject: LOD bands for MIT CADR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Cadr On 4/12/17 7:50 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt via cctalk wrote: > Anyone seen or got any? > From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 10:37:05 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Parent Allison) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:37:05 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> On Apr 12, 2017, at 11:31 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> >> So, I just picked up an MISE from Bartlett Labs (cause I really liked >> the M3SE I had) and decided to revive one of my TRS-80 MOdel I's. >> In my box of "stuff" I found an interesting ribbon cable the function >> of which I don't know. It is a 40 pin to 50 pin ribbon cable with a >> black box connecting them that is labeled TANDY. I know of nothing >> the Tandy made that used a 50 pin connector other than a hard disk. >> Could that be what this is for? Anybody ever seen one? I no longer >> have any Tandy External HD's but then, with things like MISE and FreHD >> why would one still want one other than for nostalgia. >> >> bill > > Although I never had one, I beleive Tandy made an adapter that plugged > into the Model 1 expansion bus (40 pin) and gave you a (cut down?) > Model 3 expansion bus (50 pin). As you suggest it was commonly used > to connect Model 3 hard disks to the Model 1, but I think it worked with > some other devices too. > > -tony Maybe... The only device I know of like that was trs80 to a printer (Centronics or compatible ). Allison From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 10:51:59 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Parent Allison) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:51:59 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2017, at 11:45 AM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: > That cable had the same connector on both ends and labels! The later version added a pair of cables with 5pin connectors. Later they redesigned the EI to work right as the early versions were timing critical for the Dram (bad implemntation). Allison From spereira1952 at comcast.net Wed Apr 12 12:06:51 2017 From: spereira1952 at comcast.net (Stephen Pereira) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:06:51 -0400 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A21118F-E877-49C6-AF60-6B15343823D7@comcast.net> I?m looking for expansion memory for my DEC Rainbow. I currently have 128K RAM, and I?d like to have 256K RAM, so I can actually use the Lotus 1-2-3 that I recently purchased (without thinking). Any suggestions? Thanks, smp ? Stephen M. Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Apr 12 13:20:50 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:20:50 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: <7A21118F-E877-49C6-AF60-6B15343823D7@comcast.net> References: <7A21118F-E877-49C6-AF60-6B15343823D7@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Stephen Pereira via cctech wrote: > I?m looking for expansion memory for my DEC Rainbow. > > I currently have 128K RAM, and I?d like to have 256K RAM, so I can actually use the Lotus 1-2-3 that I recently purchased (without thinking). > > Any suggestions? So is this a 100A with a 64k expansion card? Or is it the 100B with no card? If you have the 100A and a 3-bank expansion card, you should be able to remove the 64k chips that are on there and replace them with 256k chips. You should be able to take it to 832k with 27 256kbit DRAM chips. 41256-120's in DIP 16 if I recall correctly. Need to set the DIP switches correctly. This is the easiest path forward, if you are lucky enough to have this configuration, since chips are easy to get, relatively speaking, and last time I priced them, they were ~0.70 each so this will set you back ~$20 from JAMECO. You'll want an anti-static setup to do this, since the BBSs were full of people that had done this w/o adequate setup blowing up their card / chips. IMHO, if you are going this route, it's not worth messing with 64k chips since the price difference is tiny and the win for 3 banks of 256k on the Rainbow is big. If you have a 100B with no expansion card, I can't help... The expansion card is the hard bit these days... Warner From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Wed Apr 12 13:26:19 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 20:26:19 +0200 Subject: Another language : SDL In-Reply-To: References: <1492015589.28161.21.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: I use SDL daily... But my SDL is DEC?s Structure Definition Language, a language to define structures and export them to be used in Macro-32, Bliss, and C. Kind regards, Camiel Vanderhoeven OpenVMS Kernel Engineer +-+-+-+ |V|M|S| Software +-+-+-+ VMS Software, Inc. Research & Development Department On 4/12/17, 7:36 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk" wrote: >On 04/12/2017 09:46 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: >> Anyone with access to a distribution of SDT (Telelogik's SDL >> programming system) for old era SunOS 4 ? I have a SS10 which is a >> beggar for SDT (or KEE or Frame.) > > >Well, there you go--another reason for the tower of Babel. STL, at >first glance for me, brings up "Standard Template Library". I have no >doubt that there are at least a half-dozen other language-related >meanings for this acronym. > >SDL = System Definition Language, from the 1960s, almost completely >forgotten now. Then there's SDL = Specification and Description Language: > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specification_and_Description_Language > >If I had to shake a stick at all computer languages, I'd run out of >sticks. > >--Chuck From spereira1952 at comcast.net Wed Apr 12 14:00:26 2017 From: spereira1952 at comcast.net (Stephen Pereira) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:00:26 -0400 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: References: <7A21118F-E877-49C6-AF60-6B15343823D7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <255B7717-04D0-4B60-B0FD-BE85E8B846F7@comcast.net> Thanks for your response. Just to be certain, I just tore it all down and reconfirmed, in case my memory was playing any tricks. I have a PC-100B with no expansion card. Thanks again for the advice. smp -- Stephen M. Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE > On Apr 12, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Stephen Pereira via cctech > wrote: >> I?m looking for expansion memory for my DEC Rainbow. >> >> I currently have 128K RAM, and I?d like to have 256K RAM, so I can actually use the Lotus 1-2-3 that I recently purchased (without thinking). >> >> Any suggestions? > > So is this a 100A with a 64k expansion card? Or is it the 100B with no card? > > If you have the 100A and a 3-bank expansion card, you should be able > to remove the 64k chips that are on there and replace them with 256k > chips. You should be able to take it to 832k with 27 256kbit DRAM > chips. 41256-120's in DIP 16 if I recall correctly. Need to set the > DIP switches correctly. This is the easiest path forward, if you are > lucky enough to have this configuration, since chips are easy to get, > relatively speaking, and last time I priced them, they were ~0.70 each > so this will set you back ~$20 from JAMECO. You'll want an anti-static > setup to do this, since the BBSs were full of people that had done > this w/o adequate setup blowing up their card / chips. IMHO, if you > are going this route, it's not worth messing with 64k chips since the > price difference is tiny and the win for 3 banks of 256k on the > Rainbow is big. > > If you have a 100B with no expansion card, I can't help... The > expansion card is the hard bit these days... > > Warner From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 12 14:15:36 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> of which I don't know. It is a 40 pin to 50 pin ribbon cable with a >>> black box connecting them that is labeled TANDY. I know of nothing >>> the Tandy made that used a 50 pin connector other than a hard disk. On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Parent Allison via cctalk wrote: > Maybe... > The only device I know of like that was trs80 to a printer (Centronics or compatible ). Radio Shack used 34 pin for "Centronics" compatible printer cables. (#26-1401 was a cable with 34 pin card edge to 36 pin Blue Ribbon) From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 12 14:27:57 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Adrian Stoness wrote: > Modicon, ge faunic, Allen Bradly, Allen Heath, hewert Rand, Siemens, abb, > idec, square d, some I know I'm forgeting > You don't "program" an STL file. It's a 3D object layout for a 3D printed part. :) (also, don't top post!) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Apr 12 14:36:45 2017 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 19:36:45 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > So, I just picked up an MISE from Bartlett Labs (cause I really liked > > the M3SE I had) and decided to revive one of my TRS-80 MOdel I's. > > In my box of "stuff" I found an interesting ribbon cable the function > > of which I don't know.? It is a 40 pin to 50 pin ribbon cable with a > > black box connecting them that is labeled TANDY.? I know of nothing > > the Tandy made that used a 50 pin connector other than a hard disk. > > Could that be what this is for?? Anybody ever seen one?? I no longer > > have any Tandy External HD's but then, with things like MISE and FreHD > > why would one still want one other than for nostalgia. > > > > bill > > Although I never had one, I beleive Tandy made an adapter that plugged > into the Model 1 expansion bus (40 pin) and gave you a (cut down?) > Model 3 expansion bus (50 pin). As you suggest it was commonly used > to connect Model 3 hard disks to the Model 1, but I think it worked with > some other devices too. > > -tony Tony is probably correct here. See: http://electrickery.hosting.philpem.me.uk/comp/trs80/doc/Model_I_HD_Adapter.pdf From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 14:38:00 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 20:38:00 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 8:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> of which I don't know. It is a 40 pin to 50 pin ribbon cable with a >>>> black box connecting them that is labeled TANDY. I know of nothing >>>> the Tandy made that used a 50 pin connector other than a hard disk. > > On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Parent Allison via cctalk wrote: >> >> Maybe... >> The only device I know of like that was trs80 to a printer (Centronics or >> compatible ). > > > Radio Shack used 34 pin for "Centronics" compatible printer cables. > (#26-1401 was a cable with 34 pin card edge to 36 pin Blue Ribbon) There was a 'cable' (containing a few TTL ICs) to link a Centronics printer to a Model 1 CPU/keyboard unit without needing an expansion interface. It was in 2 parts. The short one included the logic and had a 40 pin edge connector on a short length of ribbon cable connected to the box containing the logic. The PCB in said box had a _40 way_ card edge coming out through the side with a slot after 34 contacts. There was a longer cable with a 40 way edge connector (with a polarising key after 34 contacts, between the contacts) on one end and a 36 pin microribbon connector (to go to the printer) on the other. You connected the long cable to the card edge on the box of logic, plugged the short cable from that into the expansion bus connector on the keyboard and plugged the other end of the long cable into the printer (which had to supply the +5V needed for the logic in the cable). If you then bought an EI, you could connect the long cable (only) to the 34 pin card edge on the EI. The only problem was that if you did this, you couldn''t fit the 'hood' over the connector (as it was designed for a 34 pin connector). And the cable didn't fit the M3 or M4. I had one. In the end (after getting an EI and later a M3), I replaced the connector with a 34 pin one. It then didn't fit the original short cable/logic (which I had no use for), but did work with the EI and M3. -tony From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Apr 12 14:07:47 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:07:47 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: <255B7717-04D0-4B60-B0FD-BE85E8B846F7@comcast.net> References: <7A21118F-E877-49C6-AF60-6B15343823D7@comcast.net> <255B7717-04D0-4B60-B0FD-BE85E8B846F7@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Stephen Pereira wrote: > Thanks for your response. > > Just to be certain, I just tore it all down and reconfirmed, in case my > memory was playing any tricks. > > I have a PC-100B with no expansion card. > > Thanks again for the advice. Bummer. The cards come up from time to time in different places, but there's none on ebay right now. Last summer there were like 5, including one that had an 8087 coprocessor option... > smp > -- > Stephen M. Pereira > Bedford, NH 03110 > KB1SXE > > On Apr 12, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Stephen Pereira via cctech > wrote: > > I?m looking for expansion memory for my DEC Rainbow. > > I currently have 128K RAM, and I?d like to have 256K RAM, so I can actually > use the Lotus 1-2-3 that I recently purchased (without thinking). > > Any suggestions? > > > So is this a 100A with a 64k expansion card? Or is it the 100B with no card? > > If you have the 100A and a 3-bank expansion card, you should be able > to remove the 64k chips that are on there and replace them with 256k > chips. You should be able to take it to 832k with 27 256kbit DRAM > chips. 41256-120's in DIP 16 if I recall correctly. Need to set the > DIP switches correctly. This is the easiest path forward, if you are > lucky enough to have this configuration, since chips are easy to get, > relatively speaking, and last time I priced them, they were ~0.70 each > so this will set you back ~$20 from JAMECO. You'll want an anti-static > setup to do this, since the BBSs were full of people that had done > this w/o adequate setup blowing up their card / chips. IMHO, if you > are going this route, it's not worth messing with 64k chips since the > price difference is tiny and the win for 3 banks of 256k on the > Rainbow is big. > > If you have a 100B with no expansion card, I can't help... The > expansion card is the hard bit these days... > > Warner > > From spereira1952 at comcast.net Wed Apr 12 14:23:42 2017 From: spereira1952 at comcast.net (Stephen Pereira) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:23:42 -0400 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: References: <7A21118F-E877-49C6-AF60-6B15343823D7@comcast.net> <255B7717-04D0-4B60-B0FD-BE85E8B846F7@comcast.net> Message-ID: I guess it doesn?t make any difference now. I reassembled the computer and now I get a message 28 ?RX50 Controller Board" failure during POST. I?ve taken it apart and put it back together several times, but I cannot clear the failure. This really has been a bad day! smp -- Stephen M. Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE > On Apr 12, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Stephen Pereira > wrote: >> Thanks for your response. >> >> Just to be certain, I just tore it all down and reconfirmed, in case my >> memory was playing any tricks. >> >> I have a PC-100B with no expansion card. >> >> Thanks again for the advice. > > Bummer. The cards come up from time to time in different places, but > there's none on ebay right now. Last summer there were like 5, > including one that had an 8087 coprocessor option... > >> smp >> -- >> Stephen M. Pereira >> Bedford, NH 03110 >> KB1SXE >> >> On Apr 12, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Stephen Pereira via cctech >> wrote: >> >> I?m looking for expansion memory for my DEC Rainbow. >> >> I currently have 128K RAM, and I?d like to have 256K RAM, so I can actually >> use the Lotus 1-2-3 that I recently purchased (without thinking). >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> >> So is this a 100A with a 64k expansion card? Or is it the 100B with no card? >> >> If you have the 100A and a 3-bank expansion card, you should be able >> to remove the 64k chips that are on there and replace them with 256k >> chips. You should be able to take it to 832k with 27 256kbit DRAM >> chips. 41256-120's in DIP 16 if I recall correctly. Need to set the >> DIP switches correctly. This is the easiest path forward, if you are >> lucky enough to have this configuration, since chips are easy to get, >> relatively speaking, and last time I priced them, they were ~0.70 each >> so this will set you back ~$20 from JAMECO. You'll want an anti-static >> setup to do this, since the BBSs were full of people that had done >> this w/o adequate setup blowing up their card / chips. IMHO, if you >> are going this route, it's not worth messing with 64k chips since the >> price difference is tiny and the win for 3 banks of 256k on the >> Rainbow is big. >> >> If you have a 100B with no expansion card, I can't help... The >> expansion card is the hard bit these days... >> >> Warner >> >> From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Apr 12 14:41:55 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:41:55 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: References: <7A21118F-E877-49C6-AF60-6B15343823D7@comcast.net> <255B7717-04D0-4B60-B0FD-BE85E8B846F7@comcast.net> Message-ID: For you and me both. I was getting read errors on my RX-50, so I tried to swap in a new drive, and now that's all I get as well. Guess I'll have to figure out another way to get the Venix/86R disks copied. Warner On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Stephen Pereira wrote: > I guess it doesn?t make any difference now. I reassembled the computer and > now I get a message 28 ?RX50 Controller Board" failure during POST. > I?ve taken it apart and put it back together several times, but I cannot > clear the failure. This really has been a bad day! > > smp > -- > Stephen M. Pereira > Bedford, NH 03110 > KB1SXE > > On Apr 12, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Stephen Pereira > wrote: > > Thanks for your response. > > Just to be certain, I just tore it all down and reconfirmed, in case my > memory was playing any tricks. > > I have a PC-100B with no expansion card. > > Thanks again for the advice. > > > Bummer. The cards come up from time to time in different places, but > there's none on ebay right now. Last summer there were like 5, > including one that had an 8087 coprocessor option... > > smp > -- > Stephen M. Pereira > Bedford, NH 03110 > KB1SXE > > On Apr 12, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Stephen Pereira via cctech > wrote: > > I?m looking for expansion memory for my DEC Rainbow. > > I currently have 128K RAM, and I?d like to have 256K RAM, so I can actually > use the Lotus 1-2-3 that I recently purchased (without thinking). > > Any suggestions? > > > So is this a 100A with a 64k expansion card? Or is it the 100B with no card? > > If you have the 100A and a 3-bank expansion card, you should be able > to remove the 64k chips that are on there and replace them with 256k > chips. You should be able to take it to 832k with 27 256kbit DRAM > chips. 41256-120's in DIP 16 if I recall correctly. Need to set the > DIP switches correctly. This is the easiest path forward, if you are > lucky enough to have this configuration, since chips are easy to get, > relatively speaking, and last time I priced them, they were ~0.70 each > so this will set you back ~$20 from JAMECO. You'll want an anti-static > setup to do this, since the BBSs were full of people that had done > this w/o adequate setup blowing up their card / chips. IMHO, if you > are going this route, it's not worth messing with 64k chips since the > price difference is tiny and the win for 3 banks of 256k on the > Rainbow is big. > > If you have a 100B with no expansion card, I can't help... The > expansion card is the hard bit these days... > > Warner > > > From spereira1952 at comcast.net Wed Apr 12 14:47:31 2017 From: spereira1952 at comcast.net (Stephen Pereira) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:47:31 -0400 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: References: <7A21118F-E877-49C6-AF60-6B15343823D7@comcast.net> <255B7717-04D0-4B60-B0FD-BE85E8B846F7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <72BF7AB0-9930-48ED-967B-48301A9B5C91@comcast.net> Wow. Since misery loves company, I guess we make a great pair today! Good luck with your equipment! smp -- Stephen M. Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE > On Apr 12, 2017, at 3:41 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > For you and me both. I was getting read errors on my RX-50, so I tried > to swap in a new drive, and now that's all I get as well. Guess I'll > have to figure out another way to get the Venix/86R disks copied. > > Warner > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Stephen Pereira > wrote: >> I guess it doesn?t make any difference now. I reassembled the computer and >> now I get a message 28 ?RX50 Controller Board" failure during POST. >> I?ve taken it apart and put it back together several times, but I cannot >> clear the failure. This really has been a bad day! >> >> smp >> -- >> Stephen M. Pereira >> Bedford, NH 03110 >> KB1SXE >> >> On Apr 12, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Stephen Pereira >> wrote: >> >> Thanks for your response. >> >> Just to be certain, I just tore it all down and reconfirmed, in case my >> memory was playing any tricks. >> >> I have a PC-100B with no expansion card. >> >> Thanks again for the advice. >> >> >> Bummer. The cards come up from time to time in different places, but >> there's none on ebay right now. Last summer there were like 5, >> including one that had an 8087 coprocessor option... >> >> smp >> -- >> Stephen M. Pereira >> Bedford, NH 03110 >> KB1SXE >> >> On Apr 12, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Stephen Pereira via cctech >> wrote: >> >> I?m looking for expansion memory for my DEC Rainbow. >> >> I currently have 128K RAM, and I?d like to have 256K RAM, so I can actually >> use the Lotus 1-2-3 that I recently purchased (without thinking). >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> >> So is this a 100A with a 64k expansion card? Or is it the 100B with no card? >> >> If you have the 100A and a 3-bank expansion card, you should be able >> to remove the 64k chips that are on there and replace them with 256k >> chips. You should be able to take it to 832k with 27 256kbit DRAM >> chips. 41256-120's in DIP 16 if I recall correctly. Need to set the >> DIP switches correctly. This is the easiest path forward, if you are >> lucky enough to have this configuration, since chips are easy to get, >> relatively speaking, and last time I priced them, they were ~0.70 each >> so this will set you back ~$20 from JAMECO. You'll want an anti-static >> setup to do this, since the BBSs were full of people that had done >> this w/o adequate setup blowing up their card / chips. IMHO, if you >> are going this route, it's not worth messing with 64k chips since the >> price difference is tiny and the win for 3 banks of 256k on the >> Rainbow is big. >> >> If you have a 100B with no expansion card, I can't help... The >> expansion card is the hard bit these days... >> >> Warner >> >> >> From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Apr 12 14:49:58 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:49:58 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: <72BF7AB0-9930-48ED-967B-48301A9B5C91@comcast.net> References: <7A21118F-E877-49C6-AF60-6B15343823D7@comcast.net> <255B7717-04D0-4B60-B0FD-BE85E8B846F7@comcast.net> <72BF7AB0-9930-48ED-967B-48301A9B5C91@comcast.net> Message-ID: Thanks! I have another experiment to try, but need some parts for that, so it will have to wait until they arrive. the unit has been a bit flakey this time, so I don't know if I need a new controller board, new RX-50 or a new power supply. Or a ROM refresh.... Warner On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Stephen Pereira wrote: > Wow. Since misery loves company, I guess we make a great pair today! > > Good luck with your equipment! > > smp > -- > Stephen M. Pereira > Bedford, NH 03110 > KB1SXE > > On Apr 12, 2017, at 3:41 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > For you and me both. I was getting read errors on my RX-50, so I tried > to swap in a new drive, and now that's all I get as well. Guess I'll > have to figure out another way to get the Venix/86R disks copied. > > Warner > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Stephen Pereira > wrote: > > I guess it doesn?t make any difference now. I reassembled the computer and > now I get a message 28 ?RX50 Controller Board" failure during POST. > I?ve taken it apart and put it back together several times, but I cannot > clear the failure. This really has been a bad day! > > smp > -- > Stephen M. Pereira > Bedford, NH 03110 > KB1SXE > > On Apr 12, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Stephen Pereira > wrote: > > Thanks for your response. > > Just to be certain, I just tore it all down and reconfirmed, in case my > memory was playing any tricks. > > I have a PC-100B with no expansion card. > > Thanks again for the advice. > > > Bummer. The cards come up from time to time in different places, but > there's none on ebay right now. Last summer there were like 5, > including one that had an 8087 coprocessor option... > > smp > -- > Stephen M. Pereira > Bedford, NH 03110 > KB1SXE > > On Apr 12, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Stephen Pereira via cctech > wrote: > > I?m looking for expansion memory for my DEC Rainbow. > > I currently have 128K RAM, and I?d like to have 256K RAM, so I can actually > use the Lotus 1-2-3 that I recently purchased (without thinking). > > Any suggestions? > > > So is this a 100A with a 64k expansion card? Or is it the 100B with no card? > > If you have the 100A and a 3-bank expansion card, you should be able > to remove the 64k chips that are on there and replace them with 256k > chips. You should be able to take it to 832k with 27 256kbit DRAM > chips. 41256-120's in DIP 16 if I recall correctly. Need to set the > DIP switches correctly. This is the easiest path forward, if you are > lucky enough to have this configuration, since chips are easy to get, > relatively speaking, and last time I priced them, they were ~0.70 each > so this will set you back ~$20 from JAMECO. You'll want an anti-static > setup to do this, since the BBSs were full of people that had done > this w/o adequate setup blowing up their card / chips. IMHO, if you > are going this route, it's not worth messing with 64k chips since the > price difference is tiny and the win for 3 banks of 256k on the > Rainbow is big. > > If you have a 100B with no expansion card, I can't help... The > expansion card is the hard bit these days... > > Warner > > > > From spereira1952 at comcast.net Wed Apr 12 15:01:04 2017 From: spereira1952 at comcast.net (Stephen Pereira) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:01:04 -0400 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: References: <7A21118F-E877-49C6-AF60-6B15343823D7@comcast.net> <255B7717-04D0-4B60-B0FD-BE85E8B846F7@comcast.net> <72BF7AB0-9930-48ED-967B-48301A9B5C91@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1958111B-F468-4CD7-9281-49E619A64A71@comcast.net> I?m glad to hear that you still have some possibilities there. I?ve go nothing on mine. I guess I?ll have to start looking for another RX-50 disk drive controller board. Since those are as scarce as the memory expansion boards, I?m not very hopeful. Guess it?ll be time to sell the parts on eBay? Hopefully, I can get some of my investment back. smp -- Stephen M. Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE > On Apr 12, 2017, at 3:49 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > Thanks! I have another experiment to try, but need some parts for > that, so it will have to wait until they arrive. the unit has been a > bit flakey this time, so I don't know if I need a new controller > board, new RX-50 or a new power supply. Or a ROM refresh.... > > Warner > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Stephen Pereira > wrote: >> Wow. Since misery loves company, I guess we make a great pair today! >> >> Good luck with your equipment! >> >> smp >> -- >> Stephen M. Pereira >> Bedford, NH 03110 >> KB1SXE >> >> On Apr 12, 2017, at 3:41 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> For you and me both. I was getting read errors on my RX-50, so I tried >> to swap in a new drive, and now that's all I get as well. Guess I'll >> have to figure out another way to get the Venix/86R disks copied. >> >> Warner >> >> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Stephen Pereira >> wrote: >> >> I guess it doesn?t make any difference now. I reassembled the computer and >> now I get a message 28 ?RX50 Controller Board" failure during POST. >> I?ve taken it apart and put it back together several times, but I cannot >> clear the failure. This really has been a bad day! >> >> smp >> -- >> Stephen M. Pereira >> Bedford, NH 03110 >> KB1SXE >> >> On Apr 12, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Stephen Pereira >> wrote: >> >> Thanks for your response. >> >> Just to be certain, I just tore it all down and reconfirmed, in case my >> memory was playing any tricks. >> >> I have a PC-100B with no expansion card. >> >> Thanks again for the advice. >> >> >> Bummer. The cards come up from time to time in different places, but >> there's none on ebay right now. Last summer there were like 5, >> including one that had an 8087 coprocessor option... >> >> smp >> -- >> Stephen M. Pereira >> Bedford, NH 03110 >> KB1SXE >> >> On Apr 12, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Stephen Pereira via cctech >> wrote: >> >> I?m looking for expansion memory for my DEC Rainbow. >> >> I currently have 128K RAM, and I?d like to have 256K RAM, so I can actually >> use the Lotus 1-2-3 that I recently purchased (without thinking). >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> >> So is this a 100A with a 64k expansion card? Or is it the 100B with no card? >> >> If you have the 100A and a 3-bank expansion card, you should be able >> to remove the 64k chips that are on there and replace them with 256k >> chips. You should be able to take it to 832k with 27 256kbit DRAM >> chips. 41256-120's in DIP 16 if I recall correctly. Need to set the >> DIP switches correctly. This is the easiest path forward, if you are >> lucky enough to have this configuration, since chips are easy to get, >> relatively speaking, and last time I priced them, they were ~0.70 each >> so this will set you back ~$20 from JAMECO. You'll want an anti-static >> setup to do this, since the BBSs were full of people that had done >> this w/o adequate setup blowing up their card / chips. IMHO, if you >> are going this route, it's not worth messing with 64k chips since the >> price difference is tiny and the win for 3 banks of 256k on the >> Rainbow is big. >> >> If you have a 100B with no expansion card, I can't help... The >> expansion card is the hard bit these days... >> >> Warner >> >> >> >> From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 16:33:38 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:33:38 -0600 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 9:55 AM, Sean Conner via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Yeah, I'm having a hard time with that too. I mean, pedantically, it > should be: > > #include > int main(void) { return EXIT_SUCCESS; } > > where EXIT_SUCCESS is 0 on every plaform except for some obscure system no > one has heard of but managed to influence the C committee back in the late > 80s. > Returning zero from main to indicate success is perfectly valid according to the most recent three C standards. ISO/IEC 9899:1990(E) ?7.10.4.3, ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?7.20.4.3 ?5 and ISO/IEC 9899:2011(E) ?7.22.4.4 ?5 both requires that either 0 or EXIT_SUCCESS as an argument to exit() be considered success. EXIT_SUCCESS may or may not be zero, but zero is considered success regardless of that. One annoyance with the way the standard defines the EXIT_x macros is that if you use other exit status values, including those from sysexits.h (not part of the C standard), it's possible that an intended failure status value might happen to match EXIT_SUCCESS on some standard-compliant implementation. ?5.1.2.2.3 ?1 of both :1999 and :2011 state that if execution reaches the closing brace of main without a return statement, that it is equivalent to returning zero, so even the return statement in this alleged non-portable example is unnecessary. On the other hand, the earlier ISO/IEC 9899:1990(E) ?5.1.2.2.3 says that main returning with no value yields an undefined termination status. -- Eric "not a language lawyer but I play one on the internet" Smith From scott at kevill.com Wed Apr 12 21:13:43 2017 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:13:43 +0800 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: Descriptions are in French, but Google Translate works well enough. Model I Buffered EI Cable (40 to 40 pin): http://prof-80.fr/carte-tandy-1700077-c/buffered-ei-cable http://prof-80.fr/carte-tandy-1700077-c/buffered-ei-cable/prototype-buffer-expansion (Schematics and Gerbers available) Model I Printer Interface Cable (40 to 40 pin): http://prof-80.fr/interface-parallele http://prof-80.fr/interface-parallele/prototype-printer-interface (Schematics and Gerbers available) Model I Hard Disk Adapter (40 to 50 pin): http://prof-80.fr/interface-hd-modele-1-n-26-1132 Scott. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 21:29:03 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:29:03 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 10:13 PM, Scott Kevill via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Descriptions are in French, but Google Translate works well enough. > > Model I Buffered EI Cable (40 to 40 pin): > http://prof-80.fr/carte-tandy-1700077-c/buffered-ei-cable > http://prof-80.fr/carte-tandy-1700077-c/buffered-ei-cable/ > prototype-buffer-expansion > (Schematics and Gerbers available) > > Model I Printer Interface Cable (40 to 40 pin): > http://prof-80.fr/interface-parallele > http://prof-80.fr/interface-parallele/prototype-printer-interface > (Schematics and Gerbers available) > > Model I Hard Disk Adapter (40 to 50 pin): > http://prof-80.fr/interface-hd-modele-1-n-26-1132 > > Scott. > > I have some of these above described cables if anyone is interested, contact me directly with what you're looking for. I actually did not know what the 40 to 50 pin cables were for either :-) I thought they were all for some sort of printing only. Bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 12 23:37:22 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 04:37:22 +0000 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org>, Message-ID: I know most don't get it but I like Forth because it is easy to follow the program flow and easy to test. C has too much boilerplate to solve the problem of not being able to use white space to keep things organized. One uses Forth like a combination assembler and high level language. Most all the stack fiddle faddle is hidden at the lower assembly like levels. The high level code is like reading sentences. It always seems to me to be the most straight forward way to tell the computer what to do. The order is left to right, top to bottom. Testing can be done at any level, solving the complexity problem of proper testing. I see too many programmers testing a program at the top level with something like 20 decision points to navigate through. When it seems to work, they call it tested. No wonder things are getting too complex to fix. It isn't really the programming languages fault but most programming languages don't make it any easier. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 2:33:38 PM To: Sean Conner; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 9:55 AM, Sean Conner via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Yeah, I'm having a hard time with that too. I mean, pedantically, it > should be: > > #include > int main(void) { return EXIT_SUCCESS; } > > where EXIT_SUCCESS is 0 on every plaform except for some obscure system no > one has heard of but managed to influence the C committee back in the late > 80s. > Returning zero from main to indicate success is perfectly valid according to the most recent three C standards. ISO/IEC 9899:1990(E) ?7.10.4.3, ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?7.20.4.3 ?5 and ISO/IEC 9899:2011(E) ?7.22.4.4 ?5 both requires that either 0 or EXIT_SUCCESS as an argument to exit() be considered success. EXIT_SUCCESS may or may not be zero, but zero is considered success regardless of that. One annoyance with the way the standard defines the EXIT_x macros is that if you use other exit status values, including those from sysexits.h (not part of the C standard), it's possible that an intended failure status value might happen to match EXIT_SUCCESS on some standard-compliant implementation. ?5.1.2.2.3 ?1 of both :1999 and :2011 state that if execution reaches the closing brace of main without a return statement, that it is equivalent to returning zero, so even the return statement in this alleged non-portable example is unnecessary. On the other hand, the earlier ISO/IEC 9899:1990(E) ?5.1.2.2.3 says that main returning with no value yields an undefined termination status. -- Eric "not a language lawyer but I play one on the internet" Smith From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 12 16:17:03 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:17:03 -0700 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: References: <7A21118F-E877-49C6-AF60-6B15343823D7@comcast.net> <255B7717-04D0-4B60-B0FD-BE85E8B846F7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7b55b79b-367d-55ba-c5f4-04595a289597@sydex.com> On 04/12/2017 12:41 PM, Warner Losh via cctech wrote: > For you and me both. I was getting read errors on my RX-50, so I > tried to swap in a new drive, and now that's all I get as well. Guess > I'll have to figure out another way to get the Venix/86R disks > copied. Got a PC with a 5.25" HD drive? Use Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk under MS-DOS and it'll do the job just fine. I've done it myself. --Chuck From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 17:17:33 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 18:17:33 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> On 04/12/2017 05:33 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 9:55 AM, Sean Conner via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Yeah, I'm having a hard time with that too. I mean, pedantically, it >> should be: >> >> #include >> int main(void) { return EXIT_SUCCESS; } >> >> where EXIT_SUCCESS is 0 on every plaform except for some obscure system no >> one has heard of but managed to influence the C committee back in the late >> 80s. >> > Returning zero from main to indicate success is perfectly valid according > to the most recent three C standards. ISO/IEC 9899:1990(E) ?7.10.4.3, > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?7.20.4.3 ?5 and ISO/IEC 9899:2011(E) ?7.22.4.4 ?5 > both requires that either 0 or EXIT_SUCCESS as an argument to exit() be > considered success. EXIT_SUCCESS may or may not be zero, but zero is > considered success regardless of that. > > One annoyance with the way the standard defines the EXIT_x macros is that > if you use other exit status values, including those from sysexits.h (not > part of the C standard), it's possible that an intended failure status > value might happen to match EXIT_SUCCESS on some standard-compliant > implementation. > > ?5.1.2.2.3 ?1 of both :1999 and :2011 state that if execution reaches the > closing brace of main without a return statement, that it is equivalent to > returning zero, so even the return statement in this alleged non-portable > example is unnecessary. > > On the other hand, the earlier ISO/IEC 9899:1990(E) ?5.1.2.2.3 says that > main returning with no value yields an undefined termination status. > > -- Eric "not a language lawyer but I play one on the internet" Smith What the heck its religion. So here's my stir... BASIC, why is that the most universal language implemented on nearly every micro and many other systems. Seriously it is a suck language but it gets work done. The yabut, is its THE only language that is somewhat portable and generally implemented on most everything can be named. Regardless of the CPU there basic on it or for it. Its been stuffed into 1k or EPROM if you can live with integers. Can't say that with C until recently with cross compilers, or Fortran, Pascal, Java, or Perl. The only exception is maybe assembly but porting a program from say 6502 to z80 is a major pain. C isn't perfect. Come to think of most of the languages are pretty much in that boat. Me, Assembly the native machine knows it and if need be I can crank a small program by hand. C is nice what you want some structure and still get close but not quite married to the iron. Pascal is good, it will typecheck you sensless. Never saw Java, Ruby, or python with anything under 32 bits. LUA is cool if you have at least a meg of ram. The list goes and the problems go on. In the end you use what you know and what is available. So I have a Tandy M100 with an 80C85, and 32K of ram... Pick BASIC, peak and poke assembly (from inside basic) or out of choices. Same for the PX-8 but that runs a Z80 and OS (CP/M) but even it is space constrained enough that without a disk C or any other compiler will not fit (even with the 120K ramdisk wedge) but BASIC is in ROM. Sure the S100 machines run it well with lots of ram and disk. Even compilers like BDS-C. But with two floppys around 240 or 360K your in tight spaces for that. So from a long term STAB (Society To Abolish Basic, down with GOTO!) member its often the only choice to get something done. In the end its about getting something done. If your being paid more so and less choice. Allison From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 00:15:39 2017 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 07:15:39 +0200 Subject: Micral - France Message-ID: >From earlest days: Here in France and saw a Micral?Now there?s a classic computer. Originated in 1973; 8008 :) :) Happy computing all! Murray :) From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Apr 13 00:32:03 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 01:32:03 -0400 Subject: Micral - France Message-ID: <8481b.2f0f2e3a.46206753@aol.com> I like the MICRAL 808 computer... if you have never seen one folks check out this link! Ed# http://history-computer.com/ModernComputer/Personal/Micral.html In a message dated 4/12/2017 10:15:49 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >From earlest days: Here in France and saw a Micral?Now there?s a classic computer. Originated in 1973; 8008 :) :) Happy computing all! Murray :) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 13 01:27:09 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:27:09 -0700 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 04/12/2017 03:17 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > What the heck its religion. So here's my stir... > > BASIC, why is that the most universal language implemented on nearly > every micro and many other systems. > > Seriously it is a suck language but it gets work done. No kidding. I'm sure that most here are familiar with the Pick system--or at least you should be. There are numerous other examples. Although I've seen screen editors and system utilities written in it, I don't think it's a suitable vehicle for OS implementation. --Chuck From ams at gnu.org Thu Apr 13 01:48:26 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 02:48:26 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170412182800.GC21568@brevard.conman.org> (message from Sean Conner on Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:28:00 -0400) References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412182800.GC21568@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: It was thus said that the Great Alfred M. Szmidt via cctalk once stated: > > > From: Alfred M. Szmidt > > > No even the following program: > > int main (void) { return 0; } > > is guaranteed to work > > I'm missing something: why not? > > It boils down to pedantism. The encoding of the above is ASCII, and > the encoding type of a C program is implementation defined. Name *ONE* computer langauge where this *ISN'T* the case. Until then, I'll consider this a completely bogus claim. Meanwhile, is *this* better? The input alphabet is implementation defined, if you want portable you cannot depend on implementation defined behaviour. But you clearly haven't bothered reading the C standard, so you probobly should do that now. From ams at gnu.org Thu Apr 13 01:48:24 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 02:48:24 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170412184314.GE21568@brevard.conman.org> (message from Sean Conner via cctalk on Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:43:14 -0400) References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <20170412184314.GE21568@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: It was thus said that the Great Alfred M. Szmidt once stated: > It was thus said that the Great Noel Chiappa via cctalk once stated: > > > From: Alfred M. Szmidt > > > > > No even the following program: > > > int main (void) { return 0; } > > > is guaranteed to work > > > > I'm missing something: why not? > > Yeah, I'm having a hard time with that too. I mean, pedantically, it > should be: > > > #include > int main(void) { return EXIT_SUCCESS; } > > Pedantically, it does not matter -- a return from main is equivalent > to an exit(), and exit(0) is sensibly defined, and EXIT_SUCCESS can > also be different from 0 (even though I don't think such a platform > exists). > > Similiarly for EXIT_FAILURE ... There's this (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8867871/should-i-return-exit-success-or-0-from-main/8868139#8868139): Somebody asked about OpenVMS. I haven't used it in a long time, but as I recall odd status values generally denote success while even values denote failure. The C implementation maps 0 to 1, so that return 0; indicates successful termination. Other values are passed unchanged, so return 1; also indicates successful termination. EXIT_FAILURE would have a non-zero even value. And certainly VMS is on topic for this list. -spc (So ... pedantically speaking, who's correct?) The standard, from 7.20.4.3: Finally, control is returned to the host environment. If the value of status is zero or EXIT_SUCCESS, an implementation-defined form of the status successful termination is returned. If the value of status is EXIT_FAILURE, an implementation-defined form of the status unsuccessful termination is returned. Otherwise the status returned is implementation-defined. From ams at gnu.org Thu Apr 13 01:48:25 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 02:48:25 -0400 Subject: LOD bands for MIT CADR In-Reply-To: (message from Al Kossow via cctalk on Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:05:14 -0700) References: Message-ID: http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Cadr I mean other LOD bands, for later versions. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 13 07:04:22 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 08:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? Message-ID: <20170413120422.1EAF918C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > All computer computer languages are only as good or bad as the person > using them. True words. I'd rather work on a program written in assembly language, done by a _really good_ programmer, than a program written in _anything_, done by a bad one. (My classic example: that MOS OS done by Jim Mathis in PDP-11 assembler.) Noel From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 08:06:32 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 09:06:32 -0400 Subject: WTB: BYT-8 Computer/Chassis Message-ID: <20170413090632.da0527b587d381d4f15160bd@gmail.com> All, I'm on the virge of making a deal with vintagecomputermuseum on eBay over his BYT-8 he's had up for years. It's still overpriced but I can probably sell the boards out of it and make it a reasonable purchase. I already have a board set so really I just need the empty chassis. Before I commit to buy from him (gag!) does anyone have a BYT-8 they want to sell me? The turnkey or full front panel versions are both acceptable. It can be totally empty, or if you want to sell the cards with it I can pay accordingly. Thanks, Jonathan From db at db.net Thu Apr 13 08:19:49 2017 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 09:19:49 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170413120422.1EAF918C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170413120422.1EAF918C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170413131949.GA37262@night.db.net> I've always said a bad programmer can write bad code in any language. That said, language features that help a good programmer write better code go a long way. - Diane On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 08:04:22AM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > All computer computer languages are only as good or bad as the person > > using them. > > True words. I'd rather work on a program written in assembly language, > done by a _really good_ programmer, than a program written in _anything_, > done by a bad one. (My classic example: that MOS OS done by Jim Mathis > in PDP-11 assembler.) > > Noel > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 09:18:46 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Parent Allison) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:18:46 -0400 Subject: WTB: BYT-8 Computer/Chassis In-Reply-To: <20170413090632.da0527b587d381d4f15160bd@gmail.com> References: <20170413090632.da0527b587d381d4f15160bd@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 13, 2017, at 9:06 AM, Systems Glitch via cctalk wrote: > All, > > I'm on the virge of making a deal with vintagecomputermuseum on eBay over his BYT-8 he's had up for years. It's still overpriced but I can probably sell the boards out of it and make it a reasonable purchase. I already have a board set so really I just need the empty chassis. > > Before I commit to buy from him (gag!) does anyone have a BYT-8 they want to sell me? The turnkey or full front panel versions are both acceptable. It can be totally empty, or if you want to sell the cards with it I can pay accordingly. > > Thanks, > Jonathan Whats the big deal with that? Its no more significant than a Compupro chassis or a Integrand box in the S100 realm. If thats rare then the BYT-8 boards must be worth a bundle. Without boards the box is a common S100 crate and value is dime a dozen and costly to ship. That makes my complete working CCS system about the value of solid gold by weight. Allison From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 09:44:18 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:44:18 -0400 Subject: WTB: BYT-8 Computer/Chassis In-Reply-To: References: <20170413090632.da0527b587d381d4f15160bd@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I should be here both days. Just let me know / text/call when to be attentive to your arrival. Bill On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Parent Allison via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Apr 13, 2017, at 9:06 AM, Systems Glitch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > All, > > > > I'm on the virge of making a deal with vintagecomputermuseum on eBay > over his BYT-8 he's had up for years. It's still overpriced but I can > probably sell the boards out of it and make it a reasonable purchase. I > already have a board set so really I just need the empty chassis. > > > > Before I commit to buy from him (gag!) does anyone have a BYT-8 they > want to sell me? The turnkey or full front panel versions are both > acceptable. It can be totally empty, or if you want to sell the cards with > it I can pay accordingly. > > > > Thanks, > > Jonathan > > Whats the big deal with that? Its no more significant than a Compupro > chassis or a Integrand box in the S100 realm. > If thats rare then the BYT-8 boards must be worth a bundle. Without > boards the box is a common S100 crate and > value is dime a dozen and costly to ship. > > That makes my complete working CCS system about the value of solid gold by > weight. > > > Allison > > > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 09:44:31 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:44:31 -0400 Subject: WTB: BYT-8 Computer/Chassis In-Reply-To: References: <20170413090632.da0527b587d381d4f15160bd@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170413104431.59ae688b0dff29f330abdd12@gmail.com> > Whats the big deal with that? Its no more significant than a Compupro chassis or a Integrand box in the S100 realm. I just like the size and configuration. I've been looking for one for a while, it seems they were sort of common at one point. They were whitelabeled by Bell & Howell (educational system) and Olson. I had a "cheap attack" a few years ago on one with the full front panel and have been looking for one for a decent price since then. I have a similarly sized TEI chassis, but it uses a Constant Voltage Transformer in the power supply, and it's *very* loud. Louder than my CompuPro's CVT. I suspect it has a loose lamination or something. > If thats rare then the BYT-8 boards must be worth a bundle. The BYT-8 MPU board is pretty common, I don't know if it was sold as a separate product or what. I've had three, plus two bare, unassembled boards. The 1/2K RAM board seems to be rare (I know of one in a Bell & Howell system). Thanks, Jonathan From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Apr 13 10:08:47 2017 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 15:08:47 +0000 Subject: Soviet PDP-11/J11 Clones Message-ID: Terry Kennedy has recently put up some gorgeous pictures of PDP-11, especially J11, Russian clone chips and Russian clone CPU boards at https://www.glaver.org/blog/?p=959 Great commentary, too! Tim N3QE From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu Apr 13 10:38:21 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 17:38:21 +0200 Subject: Soviet PDP-11/J11 Clones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170413153821.GA30997@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 03:08:47PM +0000, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > Terry Kennedy has recently put up some gorgeous pictures of PDP-11, > especially J11, Russian clone chips and Russian clone CPU boards at > > https://www.glaver.org/blog/?p=959 > > Great commentary, too! > > Tim N3QE Thank you. Very interesting article. One of the photos' description says "courtesy of Soviet Digital Electronics Museum ? Sergei Frolov" which contains even more pictures of various old hardware. http://www.leningrad.su/museum/ -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 13 11:48:35 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:48:35 -0500 Subject: Micral - France In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58EFABE3.9080400@pico-systems.com> On 04/13/2017 12:15 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > >From earlest days: > > Here in France and saw a Micral?Now there?s a classic computer. > Originated in 1973; 8008 :) :) > > Happy computing all! > > Murray :) > I built an 8008 CPU quite some years ago. I had all of 256 bytes of memory on it, and no peripherals. But, it did work. Jon From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Apr 13 12:20:53 2017 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:20:53 -0700 Subject: WTB: BYT-8 Computer/Chassis In-Reply-To: <20170413104431.59ae688b0dff29f330abdd12@gmail.com> References: <20170413090632.da0527b587d381d4f15160bd@gmail.com> <20170413104431.59ae688b0dff29f330abdd12@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have the version labeled "Olson 8080" with full front panel (toggles and blinkenlights!). Too cute to sell. :) On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Systems Glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Whats the big deal with that? Its no more significant than a Compupro > chassis or a Integrand box in the S100 realm. > > I just like the size and configuration. I've been looking for one for a > while, it seems they were sort of common at one point. They were > whitelabeled by Bell & Howell (educational system) and Olson. I had a > "cheap attack" a few years ago on one with the full front panel and have > been looking for one for a decent price since then. > > I have a similarly sized TEI chassis, but it uses a Constant Voltage > Transformer in the power supply, and it's *very* loud. Louder than my > CompuPro's CVT. I suspect it has a loose lamination or something. > > > If thats rare then the BYT-8 boards must be worth a bundle. > > The BYT-8 MPU board is pretty common, I don't know if it was sold as a > separate product or what. I've had three, plus two bare, unassembled > boards. The 1/2K RAM board seems to be rare (I know of one in a Bell & > Howell system). > > Thanks, > Jonathan > From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 13:00:06 2017 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:00:06 +0200 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I'm in the pretty same condition, I have a Rainbow 100B without memory expansion. Not sure however, about the correct board number, which would fit the 100B. What should I search for? Thanks Andrea From RichA at livingcomputers.org Thu Apr 13 14:30:26 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:30:26 +0000 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> From: allison Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 3:18 PM > BASIC, why is that the most universal language implemented on nearly every > micro and many other systems. Because it was the language offered on the GEIS timesharing system when a private boys' school in Seattle decided to teach programming in 1969? And on the systems at HP where a young technician was working in 1975? It's pretty much all down to my boss and his friend, and that guy from the Bay Area. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 13 15:24:09 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 13:24:09 -0700 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> On 04/13/2017 12:30 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > From: allison Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 3:18 PM > >> BASIC, why is that the most universal language implemented on >> nearly every micro and many other systems. > > Because it was the language offered on the GEIS timesharing system > when a private boys' school in Seattle decided to teach programming > in 1969? And on the systems at HP where a young technician was > working in 1975? Not forgetting that writing a BASIC interpreter that resides in 4KB is a relatively simple task. There were other interpreted BASIC-like languages before that; e.g. IITRAN. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 13 15:27:54 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 13:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2017, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > From: allison > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 3:18 PM > >> BASIC, why is that the most universal language implemented on nearly every >> micro and many other systems. > > Because it was the language offered on the GEIS timesharing system when a > private boys' school in Seattle decided to teach programming in 1969? And > on the systems at HP where a young technician was working in 1975? > > It's pretty much all down to my boss and his friend, and that guy from the > Bay Area. > The most wonderfully worked root-cause analysis award goes to..... :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 13 15:29:55 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 13:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2017, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 13 Apr 2017, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > >> From: allison >> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 3:18 PM >> >>> BASIC, why is that the most universal language implemented on nearly every >>> micro and many other systems. >> >> Because it was the language offered on the GEIS timesharing system when a >> private boys' school in Seattle decided to teach programming in 1969? And >> on the systems at HP where a young technician was working in 1975? >> >> It's pretty much all down to my boss and his friend, and that guy from the >> Bay Area. >> > The most wonderfully worked root-cause analysis award goes to..... :) > s/worked/worked :wq :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 13 15:30:28 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 13:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2017, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 13 Apr 2017, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > >> From: allison >> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 3:18 PM >> >>> BASIC, why is that the most universal language implemented on nearly every >>> micro and many other systems. >> >> Because it was the language offered on the GEIS timesharing system when a >> private boys' school in Seattle decided to teach programming in 1969? And >> on the systems at HP where a young technician was working in 1975? >> >> It's pretty much all down to my boss and his friend, and that guy from the >> Bay Area. >> > The most wonderfully worked root-cause analysis award goes to..... :) > :( s/worked/worded :wq g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Apr 13 16:19:51 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 14:19:51 -0700 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> On 2017-Apr-13, at 1:24 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 04/13/2017 12:30 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: >> From: allison Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 3:18 PM >> >>> BASIC, why is that the most universal language implemented on >>> nearly every micro and many other systems. >> >> Because it was the language offered on the GEIS timesharing system >> when a private boys' school in Seattle decided to teach programming >> in 1969? And on the systems at HP where a young technician was >> working in 1975? > > Not forgetting that writing a BASIC interpreter that resides in 4KB is a > relatively simple task. > > There were other interpreted BASIC-like languages before that; e.g. IITRAN. While one might argue the proliferation of BASIC on micros followed from BG/PA & SW/SJ, I'd say their implementations were following a trend rather than initiating it. BASIC was gaining prominence prior to their implementations of it. It was in all 3 of the pre-microproc personal computers: HP9830, Wang2200, IBM5100. It was becoming popular and spreading in the small-business world through the Pick-based systems (albeit an extended version of the language). It had gained awareness through the educational system and timesharing systems. All prior to MS & Apple. As bad as it was, it was present in the right place (small, easy to implement, interpretable & easy to use) at the right time (the nascent small-system and personal computer era). From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Thu Apr 13 17:36:17 2017 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 15:36:17 -0700 Subject: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards (or dec T-2052 transformers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I realize it's a long shot, but does anyone have: > - Any spare T-2052s (or know of a source) > - Any idea what the T-2052 *was* so I can try to replace them. I haven't > found much detail as of yet. Good news on this front! I had previously obtained a data sheet for the T2037, a similar transformer. I extracted 4 each T2037 and T2052 from a broken G228, and today I was able to get measurements off of them: T2037: A: 230uH, 170 mohm primary, 42.9uH 100 mohm secondary B: 220/170, 41.6/100 C: 232/170, 43.8/60 D: 231/170, 43/80 These are consistent with 16 turns and 7 turns of #33 wire, wound on an FT37-77 toroid per the instructions on the data sheet, and also with the 220 uH /43 uH 20% specs that appear there. Here are the T2052 measurements: A: 597/320, 597/320 B: 530/270, 530/270 C: 34/1040, 24/680 D: 551/280, 551/280 Ignoring "C", which is quite likely broken in some way, these are consistent with a 25 turn 1:1 transformer. I'm not sure what they are wound with, as #33 wire should give a lower DC resistance. (#34 is closer. It's also possible that they changed cores, but I suspect that they are also wound on FT37-77 cores.) It's possible that a fairly standard modern 1:1 pulse transformer could be substituted. The 78615/2JC, for instance is 500uH, 1:1 if you ignore the center tap pins. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 13 17:54:17 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 15:54:17 -0700 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 04/13/2017 02:19 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > While one might argue the proliferation of BASIC on micros followed > from BG/PA & SW/SJ, I'd say their implementations were following a > trend rather than initiating it. BASIC was gaining prominence prior > to their implementations of it. It was in all 3 of the pre-microproc > personal computers: HP9830, Wang2200, IBM5100. It was becoming > popular and spreading in the small-business world through the > Pick-based systems (albeit an extended version of the language). It > had gained awareness through the educational system and timesharing > systems. All prior to MS & Apple. > > As bad as it was, it was present in the right place (small, easy to > implement, interpretable & easy to use) at the right time (the > nascent small-system and personal computer era). ...or that Iverson language, APL, present on the 5100 and what was probably one of the the first microcomputers, the MCM/70. So, whence APL today? --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 13 18:34:08 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:34:08 -0400 Subject: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 2017-04-13 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 04/13/2017 02:19 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > >> While one might argue the proliferation of BASIC on micros followed >> from BG/PA & SW/SJ, I'd say their implementations were following a >> trend rather than initiating it. BASIC was gaining prominence prior >> to their implementations of it. It was in all 3 of the pre-microproc >> personal computers: HP9830, Wang2200, IBM5100. It was becoming >> popular and spreading in the small-business world through the >> Pick-based systems (albeit an extended version of the language). It >> had gained awareness through the educational system and timesharing >> systems. All prior to MS & Apple. >> >> As bad as it was, it was present in the right place (small, easy to >> implement, interpretable & easy to use) at the right time (the >> nascent small-system and personal computer era). > > ...or that Iverson language, APL, present on the 5100 and what was > probably one of the the first microcomputers, the MCM/70. > > So, whence APL today? Still lives on -- Dyalog, J, K, etc. Recently discovered the #jsoftware channel on Freenode for APL fans. --Toby > > --Chuck > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Apr 13 19:23:08 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 00:23:08 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/2017 10:13 PM, Scott Kevill via cctalk wrote: > Descriptions are in French, but Google Translate works well enough. > > Model I Buffered EI Cable (40 to 40 pin): > http://prof-80.fr/carte-tandy-1700077-c/buffered-ei-cable > http://prof-80.fr/carte-tandy-1700077-c/buffered-ei-cable/prototype-buffer-expansion > (Schematics and Gerbers available) > > Model I Printer Interface Cable (40 to 40 pin): > http://prof-80.fr/interface-parallele > http://prof-80.fr/interface-parallele/prototype-printer-interface > (Schematics and Gerbers available) > > Model I Hard Disk Adapter (40 to 50 pin): > http://prof-80.fr/interface-hd-modele-1-n-26-1132 > Nope, it's none of those. bill From jsw at ieee.org Thu Apr 13 19:47:45 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:47:45 -0500 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9F578F2A-9240-4DB5-AEB7-D3232CFF45E0@ieee.org> > On Apr 13, 2017, at 3:24 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/13/2017 12:30 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: >> From: allison Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 3:18 PM >> >>> BASIC, why is that the most universal language implemented on >>> nearly every micro and many other systems. >> >> Because it was the language offered on the GEIS timesharing system >> when a private boys' school in Seattle decided to teach programming >> in 1969? And on the systems at HP where a young technician was >> working in 1975? > > Not forgetting that writing a BASIC interpreter that resides in 4KB is a > relatively simple task. > > There were other interpreted BASIC-like languages before that; e.g. IITRAN. > > --Chuck > IITRAN That?s one I haven?t heard of in quite some time. In the late 60?s early 70?s, I first started with BASIC on a GEIS system that my BSA Explorer Post had access to. About the same time my Long Island (NY) high school had access to the BOCES LIRICS system with more BASIC and then Fortran. Then my dad got transferred to Chicago and that high school had ?access? to IITRAN. By access, that meant punching cards, and waiting for the teacher to load in batch and waiting for the results. Losing the interactive aspect overshadowed the language features. Jerry WB9MRI From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 13 20:07:53 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Model I Hard Disk Adapter (40 to 50 pin): >> http://prof-80.fr/interface-hd-modele-1-n-26-1132 On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Nope, it's none of those. Can you describe in what ways it differs? From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Apr 13 20:32:45 2017 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:32:45 -0300 Subject: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <20170414013248.CC75D6D8A80E9@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> Toby Thain via cctalk wrote on Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:34:08 -0400 > On 2017-04-13 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > So, whence APL today? > > Still lives on -- Dyalog, J, K, etc. Recently discovered the #jsoftware > channel on Freenode for APL fans. I consider Matlab and Julia to be spiritual descendents of APL. One thing that hurt APL in early microcomputers was that they used text mode with the wrong font. I would also have guessed that Basic could work better in really limited hardware, but some early APL implementations were impressively frugal. -- Jecel From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 13 21:42:52 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:42:52 -0700 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <9F578F2A-9240-4DB5-AEB7-D3232CFF45E0@ieee.org> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <9F578F2A-9240-4DB5-AEB7-D3232CFF45E0@ieee.org> Message-ID: <7bc194da-8be5-65fb-2ad2-73d16adbf70b@sydex.com> On 04/13/2017 05:47 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > Then my dad got transferred to Chicago and that high school had > ?access? to IITRAN. By access, that meant punching cards, and > waiting for the teacher to load in batch and waiting for the results. > > > Losing the interactive aspect overshadowed the language features. To be fair, many Chicago-area high schools did have interactive (TTY) access in the 60s to IITRAN. IITRAN TTY access extended far beyond the Chicago area. http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-iitran-1899.html Not a bad language for the time. Probably better than BASIC. --Chuck From jsw at ieee.org Thu Apr 13 22:05:19 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:05:19 -0500 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <7bc194da-8be5-65fb-2ad2-73d16adbf70b@sydex.com> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <9F578F2A-9240-4DB5-AEB7-D3232CFF45E0@ieee.org> <7bc194da-8be5-65fb-2ad2-73d16adbf70b@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 13, 2017, at 9:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/13/2017 05:47 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > >> Then my dad got transferred to Chicago and that high school had >> ?access? to IITRAN. By access, that meant punching cards, and >> waiting for the teacher to load in batch and waiting for the results. >> >> >> Losing the interactive aspect overshadowed the language features. > > > To be fair, many Chicago-area high schools did have interactive (TTY) > access in the 60s to IITRAN. IITRAN TTY access extended far beyond the > Chicago area. > > http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-iitran-1899.html > > Not a bad language for the time. Probably better than BASIC. > > --Chuck Oh the high-school had a nice ASR-33, which was used to manage our IITRAN jobs. But they never let the students use it interactively (during my tenure!), possibly due to the costs for CPU or IO. The other HS in the district had their own PDP-8. Some of my (new) friends got to play with that one. Jerry From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 22:22:32 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:22:32 -0500 Subject: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170414013248.CC75D6D8A80E9@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> <20170414013248.CC75D6D8A80E9@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <20170414032232.GA1445@gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > Toby Thain via cctalk wrote on Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:34:08 -0400 > > On 2017-04-13 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > So, whence APL today? > > > > Still lives on -- Dyalog, J, K, etc. Recently discovered the #jsoftware > > channel on Freenode for APL fans. > > I consider Matlab and Julia to be spiritual descendents of APL. > > One thing that hurt APL in early microcomputers was that they used text > mode with the wrong font. I would also have guessed that Basic could > work better in really limited hardware, but some early APL > implementations were impressively frugal. The VideoBrain home computer had something called APL/S, but I can't find any information on how it differs from APL. Does anyone know? -- Eric Christopherson From north at alum.mit.edu Thu Apr 13 23:05:59 2017 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 21:05:59 -0700 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <7bc194da-8be5-65fb-2ad2-73d16adbf70b@sydex.com> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <9F578F2A-9240-4DB5-AEB7-D3232CFF45E0@ieee.org> <7bc194da-8be5-65fb-2ad2-73d16adbf70b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <428966bc-f8c8-724e-839c-ef3d5dd804cb@alum.mit.edu> On 4/13/2017 7:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 04/13/2017 05:47 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > >> Then my dad got transferred to Chicago and that high school had >> ?access? to IITRAN. By access, that meant punching cards, and >> waiting for the teacher to load in batch and waiting for the results. >> >> >> Losing the interactive aspect overshadowed the language features. > > To be fair, many Chicago-area high schools did have interactive (TTY) > access in the 60s to IITRAN. IITRAN TTY access extended far beyond the > Chicago area. > > http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-iitran-1899.html > > Not a bad language for the time. Probably better than BASIC. > > --Chuck > I especially liked the Spanish language version of IITRAN: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/spantran.pdf Don From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 14 00:23:19 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:23:19 -0700 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <428966bc-f8c8-724e-839c-ef3d5dd804cb@alum.mit.edu> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <9F578F2A-9240-4DB5-AEB7-D3232CFF45E0@ieee.org> <7bc194da-8be5-65fb-2ad2-73d16adbf70b@sydex.com> <428966bc-f8c8-724e-839c-ef3d5dd804cb@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 04/13/2017 09:05 PM, Don North wrote: > I especially liked the Spanish language version of IITRAN: > http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/spantran.pdf That does look like a TTY session. But the use of "hacer" (infinitive) for "DO" is puzzling. I would have made it the imperitive "haga". --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Apr 13 15:20:06 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 14:20:06 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 12:00 PM, shadoooo via cctech wrote: > Hello, > I'm in the pretty same condition, I have a Rainbow 100B without memory > expansion. > Not sure however, about the correct board number, which would fit the 100B. > What should I search for? The DEC part numbers for these are PC1XX-AY (128k) and PC1XX-AZ (256k). I'm not sure what the board numbers are, and some auctions list those instead. They are the same board. There's 4 switches on the board. One for each of the 3 banks to select between 64kbit chips and 256kbit chips. You want 4164 or 41256 for the board. It's super easy to upgrade (I bought a AY back in the day and then 18 months later I bought 27 41256 chips and swapped them out in about 10-15 minutes. I'm not sure what the 100A needs. I have no experience with the 100A hardware. Warner From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Apr 13 18:01:33 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 16:01:33 -0700 Subject: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards (or dec T-2052 transformers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Using a t-2052 build up a test fixture, a pulse generator and? a oscilloscope and if have access to one a high bandwidth current probe. Use the 2052s you have, record the curves etc and then make up some test transformers. -Pete component engineer in a former life. On Apr 13, 2017 3:36 PM, "Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk" < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I realize it's a long shot, but does anyone have: >> > > - Any spare T-2052s (or know of a source) >> - Any idea what the T-2052 *was* so I can try to replace them. I haven't >> found much detail as of yet. >> > > Good news on this front! > > I had previously obtained a data sheet for the T2037, a similar > transformer. > > I extracted 4 each T2037 and T2052 from a broken G228, and today I was > able to get measurements off of them: > > T2037: > A: 230uH, 170 mohm primary, 42.9uH 100 mohm secondary > B: 220/170, 41.6/100 > C: 232/170, 43.8/60 > D: 231/170, 43/80 > > These are consistent with 16 turns and 7 turns of #33 wire, wound on an > FT37-77 toroid per the instructions on the data sheet, and also with the > 220 uH /43 uH 20% specs that appear there. > > Here are the T2052 measurements: > A: 597/320, 597/320 > B: 530/270, 530/270 > C: 34/1040, 24/680 > D: 551/280, 551/280 > > Ignoring "C", which is quite likely broken in some way, these are > consistent with a 25 turn 1:1 transformer. I'm not sure what they are > wound with, as #33 wire should give a lower DC resistance. > (#34 is closer. It's also possible that they changed cores, but I suspect > that they are also wound on FT37-77 cores.) > > It's possible that a fairly standard modern 1:1 pulse transformer could be > substituted. The 78615/2JC, for instance is 500uH, 1:1 if you ignore the > center tap pins. > > Vince > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Apr 14 07:31:50 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:31:50 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/13/2017 9:07 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Model I Hard Disk Adapter (40 to 50 pin): >>> http://prof-80.fr/interface-hd-modele-1-n-26-1132 > On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Nope, it's none of those. > > Can you describe in what ways it differs? OK. I just opend the little plastic box. It isn't shown, but I assume the end of the cable is a female edge connector. Your other end is a male coming out of the box. I have cables on both ends both ending in female connectors. The PC board shows two resistors and two transistors. Mine has four resistors and two disk capacitors. Obviously not even similar. On another note, the box is labeled "To EI Screen Printer Port". Not sure what that means as the EI has a "Line Printer Card Edge" and not something specific to the Screen Printer. bill From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 08:05:39 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 08:05:39 -0500 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <9F578F2A-9240-4DB5-AEB7-D3232CFF45E0@ieee.org> <7bc194da-8be5-65fb-2ad2-73d16adbf70b@sydex.com> <428966bc-f8c8-724e-839c-ef3d5dd804cb@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 04/13/2017 09:05 PM, Don North wrote: > > > I especially liked the Spanish language version of IITRAN: > > http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/spantran.pdf > > > That does look like a TTY session. But the use of "hacer" (infinitive) > for "DO" is puzzling. I would have made it the imperitive "haga". > The usted form, eh? I would have thought computers would warrant tuteo... -- Eric Christopherson From kelly at catcorner.org Fri Apr 14 08:11:13 2017 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 13:11:13 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 8:32 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TRS-80 curiosity > On 4/13/2017 9:07 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Model I Hard Disk Adapter (40 to 50 pin): >>> http://prof-80.fr/interface-hd-modele-1-n-26-1132 > On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Nope, it's none of those. > > Can you describe in what ways it differs? > On another note, the box is labeled "To EI Screen Printer Port". > Not sure what that means as the EI has a "Line Printer Card Edge" > and not something specific to the Screen Printer. Well, that explains it all then. http://www.trs-80.org/trs-80-screen-printer/ The screen printer connected to the expansion interface via a dedicated cable. From wilson at dbit.com Fri Apr 14 08:34:20 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 09:34:20 -0400 Subject: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <9F578F2A-9240-4DB5-AEB7-D3232CFF45E0@ieee.org> <7bc194da-8be5-65fb-2ad2-73d16adbf70b@sydex.com> <428966bc-f8c8-724e-839c-ef3d5dd804cb@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170414133420.GA18851@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 08:05:39AM -0500, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: >> That does look like a TTY session. But the use of "hacer" (infinitive) >> for "DO" is puzzling. I would have made it the imperitive "haga". > >The usted form, eh? I would have thought computers would warrant tuteo... I've always wondered about this kind of thing. Haz for micros, haga for mainframes? John Wilson D Bit From pete at pski.net Fri Apr 14 08:35:35 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 09:35:35 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 14, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Kelly Leavitt via cctalk wrote: > >> On another note, the box is labeled "To EI Screen Printer Port". >> Not sure what that means as the EI has a "Line Printer Card Edge" >> and not something specific to the Screen Printer. > > Well, that explains it all then. > > http://www.trs-80.org/trs-80-screen-printer/ > > The screen printer connected to the expansion interface via a dedicated cable. The EI expansion port was originally called the Screen Printer port because that was the only accessory that connected directly to the TRS-80 bus. I?m not sure if this cable was for the Screen Printer as I always thought that was a straight through cable. But, the manuals do not indicate either way. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Apr 14 09:36:33 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 14:36:33 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> , Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: Camiel Vanderhoeven [camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com] Does it look like the cable in this eBay listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Radio-Shack-TRS-80-Screen-Printer-26-1151-w-Sealed- Paper-Manual-EXTREMELY-RARE-/201867426619? _____________________________________ Sorry, I didn't see any cable in that item. Just an extremely overpriced printer. Or should I say firestarter? bill From pete at pski.net Fri Apr 14 09:46:29 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 10:46:29 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5915E382-2CF5-485A-B6C0-AAEA78FF0997@pski.net> > On Apr 14, 2017, at 10:36 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote > > Sorry, I didn't see any cable in that item. Just an extremely overpriced printer. > > Or should I say firestarter? > > bill > Here's the pic of the cable http://imgur.com/UhvJ2Ed From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 14 09:54:53 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 07:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > The PC board shows two resistors and two transistors. Mine has > four resistors and two disk capacitors. > Obviously not even similar. Possibly very similar, Have you counted the pin numbers to determine which traces the parts are connected to? If the component resistors, transistors and capacitors perform compatible "buffering" functions, they may be functionally compatible. Both designs sound like kludges to deal with problems that surfaced when straight-through cables were used. If you count pins and identify the components, or take a picture, then Allison might be able to identify the details! > On another note, the box is labeled "To EI Screen Printer Port". > Not sure what that means as the EI has a "Line Printer Card Edge" > and not something specific to the Screen Printer. That's due to a fluke in TRS-80 history. Even before the EI was available, RS had a "screen printer" that connected to the 40 pin expansion bus of the CPU. "To avoid confusion", and to avoid explaining what a bus was, RS therefore, called that 40 pin connector the "Screen Printer Port". http://www.trs-80.org/trs-80-screen-printer/ It sold for $599 (as much as the computer!) That continued to be available for a while after the EI came out. Owners of it "had to be" supported. The EI has a continuation of the 40 pin expansion bus. But, rather than try to explain it, RS simply showed them a picture of where the EI 40 pin expansion bus "continuation"/"output" connector was, and told them to plug their 40 pin screen printer into that connector. "To avoid confusion", and to avoid explaining what a bus was, RS therefore, called that 40 pin connector the "EI Screen Printer Port". Because RS had PROBLEMS with the EI, http://www.trs-80.org/radio-shack-expansion-interface/ they ended up coming out with multiple versions of the cabling, including the "Screen Printer" cable specifically including "buffered" cable with a box. I think that the screen printer cable was 40 pin to 40 pin? They also made a 40 pin to 34 pin adapter for connecting "Centronics style" printers to the CPU bus. It also would probably have been labelled "screen printer port", http://www.trs-80.org/printer-interface-cable/ One 50 pin to 40 pin adapter would be the one to connect the screen printer to the model 3. Insane thing to do, but we, the TRS-80 users, were rarely accused of sanity. Another 50 pin to 40 pin adapter would be Model 1 to hard disk. The connector on that for the model 1 would probably have been labeled "EI Screen Printer Port". All of these cables would have been easiest to build as a board with two gold-plated card-edge connectors, and then use female card-edge to female card-edge cables for connection (except 26-1401 female card-edge to "blue-ribbon" for "Centronics style" printers). But, RS cut corners and did not gold-plate the EI connectors! That came back to bite them on the ass (similarly to the way Apple's crappy sockets bit them), and therefore, rather than risk another card-edge bad connection, some of their stuff was made with attached cables, instead. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 14 10:09:21 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:09:21 -0400 Subject: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: > On Apr 13, 2017, at 7:34 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > On 2017-04-13 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> ... >> ...or that Iverson language, APL, present on the 5100 and what was >> probably one of the the first microcomputers, the MCM/70. >> >> So, whence APL today? > > Still lives on -- Dyalog, J, K, etc. Recently discovered the #jsoftware channel on Freenode for APL fans. For that matter, APL itself also still exists, the OpenAPL open source implementation for example. Works nicely. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 14 10:15:44 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 08:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Peter Cetinski via cctalk wrote: > The EI expansion port was originally called the Screen Printer port > because that was the only accessory that connected directly to the > TRS-80 bus. Originally. Later, the Voice Output device (repackaged Votrax?) used the bus connector. Later, the Voice Input device used the bus connector. After we (Elcompco) built a 4 port "Bus Extender" (with active termination), we found that the Voice Input device had a hidden undocumented pass-through of the bus. All essential to connecting an X-10 interface and being able to say, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!", with a response of X-10 "all lights ON", and a voice responce of "BY YOUR COMMAND". Thus demonstrating the level of practical applicability of a home computer. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 14 11:29:17 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 09:29:17 -0700 Subject: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <9886adef-8e13-018d-e129-838f675fd24b@sydex.com> On 04/14/2017 08:09 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > For that matter, APL itself also still exists, the OpenAPL open > source implementation for example. Works nicely. ...but reduced to a marginal language. I wonder if there's any JOVIAL still in use... --Chuck From pete at pski.net Fri Apr 14 11:30:33 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:30:33 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: <10096BBA-D3FF-4E2D-A3B7-08B121419124@pski.net> > On Apr 14, 2017, at 11:15 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Peter Cetinski via cctalk wrote: >> The EI expansion port was originally called the Screen Printer port because that was the only accessory that connected directly to the TRS-80 bus. > > Originally. > > Later, the Voice Output device (repackaged Votrax?) used the bus connector. > Later, the Voice Input device used the bus connector. > Correct, originally. Lot?s of 3rd party devices that connected to the bus appeared soon thereafter. A few interesting ones I have other than the Voice Synthesizer and the Vox Box are an Exatron Stringy Floppy and a Cryptext hardware encryption device. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 14 11:53:48 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 09:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: <10096BBA-D3FF-4E2D-A3B7-08B121419124@pski.net> References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> <10096BBA-D3FF-4E2D-A3B7-08B121419124@pski.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Peter Cetinski wrote: > Lot?s of 3rd party devices that connected to the bus appeared soon > thereafter. A few interesting ones I have other than the Voice > Synthesizer and the Vox Box Those were sold under the Radio Shack name. There were also some similar and better ones from third parties. > are an Exatron Stringy Floppy and a Cryptext > hardware encryption device. There was a software intensive third party expansion bus serial printer interface early on. It was supplanted by the TRS-232 (cassette port to serial printer!) (Not to be confused with numerous other products named "TRS-232") In Googling for it, I stumbled on http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/trs80/ who makes a Model 1 to hard disk cable, a doubler, a CP/M "mapper", etc. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Apr 14 11:58:33 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 16:58:33 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: <5915E382-2CF5-485A-B6C0-AAEA78FF0997@pski.net> References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> , <5915E382-2CF5-485A-B6C0-AAEA78FF0997@pski.net> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: Peter Cetinski [pete at pski.net] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 10:46 AM To: Bill Gunshannon; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TRS-80 curiosity On Apr 14, 2017, at 10:36 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote Sorry, I didn't see any cable in that item. Just an extremely overpriced printer. Or should I say firestarter? bill Here's the pic of the cable http://imgur.com/UhvJ2Ed _________________________________ That's it. I was pretty sure it wasn't for a hard disk. Now I know it's worthless. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Apr 14 12:10:00 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 17:10:00 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> , Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 10:54 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TRS-80 curiosity On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > The PC board shows two resistors and two transistors. Mine has > four resistors and two disk capacitors. > Obviously not even similar. Possibly very similar, Have you counted the pin numbers to determine which traces the parts are connected to? If the component resistors, transistors and capacitors perform compatible "buffering" functions, they may be functionally compatible. Both designs sound like kludges to deal with problems that surfaced when straight-through cables were used. If you count pins and identify the components, or take a picture, then Allison might be able to identify the details! > On another note, the box is labeled "To EI Screen Printer Port". > Not sure what that means as the EI has a "Line Printer Card Edge" > and not something specific to the Screen Printer. That's due to a fluke in TRS-80 history. Even before the EI was available, RS had a "screen printer" that connected to the 40 pin expansion bus of the CPU. "To avoid confusion", and to avoid explaining what a bus was, RS therefore, called that 40 pin connector the "Screen Printer Port". http://www.trs-80.org/trs-80-screen-printer/ It sold for $599 (as much as the computer!) That continued to be available for a while after the EI came out. Owners of it "had to be" supported. The EI has a continuation of the 40 pin expansion bus. But, rather than try to explain it, RS simply showed them a picture of where the EI 40 pin expansion bus "continuation"/"output" connector was, and told them to plug their 40 pin screen printer into that connector. "To avoid confusion", and to avoid explaining what a bus was, RS therefore, called that 40 pin connector the "EI Screen Printer Port". Because RS had PROBLEMS with the EI, http://www.trs-80.org/radio-shack-expansion-interface/ they ended up coming out with multiple versions of the cabling, including the "Screen Printer" cable specifically including "buffered" cable with a box. I think that the screen printer cable was 40 pin to 40 pin? They also made a 40 pin to 34 pin adapter for connecting "Centronics style" printers to the CPU bus. It also would probably have been labelled "screen printer port", http://www.trs-80.org/printer-interface-cable/ One 50 pin to 40 pin adapter would be the one to connect the screen printer to the model 3. Insane thing to do, but we, the TRS-80 users, were rarely accused of sanity. Another 50 pin to 40 pin adapter would be Model 1 to hard disk. The connector on that for the model 1 would probably have been labeled "EI Screen Printer Port". All of these cables would have been easiest to build as a board with two gold-plated card-edge connectors, and then use female card-edge to female card-edge cables for connection (except 26-1401 female card-edge to "blue-ribbon" for "Centronics style" printers). But, RS cut corners and did not gold-plate the EI connectors! That came back to bite them on the ass (similarly to the way Apple's crappy sockets bit them), and therefore, rather than risk another card-edge bad connection, some of their stuff was made with attached cables, instead. ___________________________________________ Well, I don'c consider something passive (having only inert parts) to be similar to a device with active parts, but that's just my opinion. :-) Mine is 40 pin to 50 pin, definitely for the Model I and looks exactly like the Screen Printer cable in the last picture I was sent. I just cheked both the manual and looked at the E/I itself and the Line Printer Port is 34 pins and Centronics signals so no special cable there. I know that was the case on the Model 3 and Model 4. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 14 12:45:23 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 10:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> , Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Well, I don'c consider something passive (having only inert parts) to be > similar to a device with active parts, but that's just my opinion. :-) dissimilar designs can be done for functionally compatible systems. > Mine is 40 pin to 50 pin, definitely for the Model I and looks exactly like the > Screen Printer cable in the last picture I was sent. Great! Curiousity assuaged. I had thought that both ends of the Screen printer cable would be 40 pin, That's why I had speculated on Model 3. But I never spent $599 for one. (instead, I struggled with interfacing a DTC-300 HyType 1 serial printer) > I just cheked both the manual and looked at the E/I itself and the Line > Printer Port is 34 pins and Centronics signals so no special cable there. > I know that was the case on the Model 3 and Model 4. Yes, the model 1, 3, and 4 parallel printer ports ("Line Printer Port") are essentially the same. If you examine the circuitry in the interfaces, you might not think that they are "similar" :-) They all use the #26-1401 printer cable (34 pin IDC card-edge to 36 pin "blue ribbon") My homemade 34 pin to 50 pin cables for 8" drives (crimp with a couple of wires moved) is functionally similar to D-Bit's FDADAP, but electrically dissimilar, in that I don't implement TG43, when used in a read-only situation. If that were to have been available at the time, it would have saved me a lot of wasted time bread-boarding a totally unnecessary "break-out". From aswood at t-online.de Fri Apr 14 14:48:29 2017 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 21:48:29 +0200 Subject: DEC Alphaserver 1000 4/266 Message-ID: Hello all, I'm looking for a DEC Alphaserver 1000 4/266 CPU board. Andreas From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 14 16:02:53 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 21:02:53 +0000 Subject: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: <20170414032232.GA1445@gmail.com> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> <20170414013248.CC75D6D8A80E9@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br>, <20170414032232.GA1445@gmail.com> Message-ID: To my knowledge, there is only one person that claims to have a cartridge for the APL on the VideoBrain. He considers it more valuable than gold and won't let anyone look at it or dump its contents. Such code running on a VideoBrain would surely warrant the /S label for "Small". Without some form of bank switching the resources of the VideoBrain are minimal. It has almost no RAM and the decoding has mirrored images through the address space. The F8 was clearly intended as an embedded controller similar to the Rockwell PPS4. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Christopherson via cctalk Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:22:32 PM To: Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk Subject: Re: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? On Thu, Apr 13, 2017, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > Toby Thain via cctalk wrote on Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:34:08 -0400 > > On 2017-04-13 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > So, whence APL today? > > > > Still lives on -- Dyalog, J, K, etc. Recently discovered the #jsoftware > > channel on Freenode for APL fans. > > I consider Matlab and Julia to be spiritual descendents of APL. > > One thing that hurt APL in early microcomputers was that they used text > mode with the wrong font. I would also have guessed that Basic could > work better in really limited hardware, but some early APL > implementations were impressively frugal. The VideoBrain home computer had something called APL/S, but I can't find any information on how it differs from APL. Does anyone know? -- Eric Christopherson From scott at kevill.com Fri Apr 14 20:16:13 2017 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 09:16:13 +0800 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <3CE1511E-2C3E-42D7-8928-ACD32F128834@kevill.com> On 15/04/2017, at 1:45 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I had thought that both ends of the Screen printer cable would be 40 pin, That's why I had speculated on Model 3. > But I never spent $599 for one. > (instead, I struggled with interfacing a DTC-300 HyType 1 serial printer) I never had a Screen Printer either, but I don't think it would even be possible to use with a Model III. I assumed the way it worked on the Model I was by either watching the CPU bus and sniffing writes to the video memory (mirroring to its own copy continuously), or reading the video memory when needed (trickier with synchronisation). Unfortunately, despite the Model III having 50 pins instead of 40, 25 of them were ground and A0-A7 of the address lines were exposed. Even that was only enabled for IO ports via software first. The Model I was much for flexible for add-ons. Scott. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Apr 14 20:53:40 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 21:53:40 -0400 Subject: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? Message-ID: <2c4200.44fb198e.4622d724@aol.com> At SMECC we have a very curious laptop with a little tape drive in it that seems to take small dictation size tapes. The little laptop has a rounded top to it. Mfr name on tip of tongue ... but ... It live in one of the Glass chasses .. wonder how scarce they are? only seen the one... Ed# In a message dated 4/14/2017 8:09:32 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > On Apr 13, 2017, at 7:34 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > On 2017-04-13 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> ... >> ...or that Iverson language, APL, present on the 5100 and what was >> probably one of the the first microcomputers, the MCM/70. >> >> So, whence APL today? > > Still lives on -- Dyalog, J, K, etc. Recently discovered the #jsoftware channel on Freenode for APL fans. For that matter, APL itself also still exists, the OpenAPL open source implementation for example. Works nicely. paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 14 21:47:47 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:47:47 -0400 Subject: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> <20170414013248.CC75D6D8A80E9@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20170414032232.GA1445@gmail.com> Message-ID: <12a522f0-dce4-c238-3078-4e1b4fd09982@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-04-14 5:02 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > To my knowledge, there is only one person that claims to > > have a cartridge for the APL on the VideoBrain. He considers it > > more valuable than gold and won't let anyone look at it or > > dump its contents. I never understood this self-defeating attitude. What's supposed to happen when they pass on? --T > > Such code running on a VideoBrain would surely warrant the /S > > label for "Small". > > Without some form of bank switching the resources of the VideoBrain > > are minimal. > > It has almost no RAM and the decoding has mirrored images through > > the address space. > > The F8 was clearly intended as an embedded controller similar to > > the Rockwell PPS4. > > Dwight > > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Christopherson via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:22:32 PM > To: Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk > Subject: Re: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: >> Toby Thain via cctalk wrote on Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:34:08 -0400 >>> On 2017-04-13 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>>> So, whence APL today? >>> >>> Still lives on -- Dyalog, J, K, etc. Recently discovered the #jsoftware >>> channel on Freenode for APL fans. >> >> I consider Matlab and Julia to be spiritual descendents of APL. >> >> One thing that hurt APL in early microcomputers was that they used text >> mode with the wrong font. I would also have guessed that Basic could >> work better in really limited hardware, but some early APL >> implementations were impressively frugal. > > The VideoBrain home computer had something called APL/S, but I can't > find any information on how it differs from APL. Does anyone know? > > -- > Eric Christopherson > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 14 22:04:18 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 20:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pass on (Was: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why In-Reply-To: <12a522f0-dce4-c238-3078-4e1b4fd09982@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> <20170414013248.CC75D6D8A80E9@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20170414032232.GA1445@gmail.com> <12a522f0-dce4-c238-3078-4e1b4fd09982@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: >> have a cartridge for the APL on the VideoBrain. He considers it >> more valuable than gold and won't let anyone look at it or >> dump its contents. On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > I never understood this self-defeating attitude. What's supposed to happen > when they pass on? Those handling the estate might make a good-faith effort to follow explicitly stated wishes. Then the rest of "that crap" gets dumpstered and sent to landfill. Stuff like that ridiculous "APL" game cartridge that won't even fit any current game machine. And ALL of those obsolete computers that won't even run Windows 10 NOR current Apple OS. Remember what happened to Don Maslin's projects? I've made a will, with a bunch of specific bequests. For the rest, . . . When I go, my sister will gladly let anybody who is willing to do a dump run have all of my stuff, if they act quickly. Otherwise, she will hire a hauling outfit that WILL work quickly. She will gripe long and loud about how much it costs and how long it takes to throw away all of my stuff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 22:20:04 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 23:20:04 -0400 Subject: Pass on (Was: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> <20170414013248.CC75D6D8A80E9@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20170414032232.GA1445@gmail.com> <12a522f0-dce4-c238-3078-4e1b4fd09982@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Apr 14, 2017 11:04 PM, "Fred Cisin via cctalk" wrote: >>> >>> have a cartridge for the APL on the VideoBrain. He considers it >>> more valuable than gold and won't let anyone look at it or >>> dump its contents. > > On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> >> I never understood this self-defeating attitude. What's supposed to happen when they pass on? > > > Those handling the estate might make a good-faith effort to follow explicitly stated wishes. > Then the rest of "that crap" gets dumpstered and sent to landfill. > Stuff like that ridiculous "APL" game cartridge that won't even fit any current game machine. > And ALL of those obsolete computers that won't even run Windows 10 NOR current Apple OS. > > Remember what happened to Don Maslin's projects? > > I've made a will, with a bunch of specific bequests. For the rest, . . . When I go, my sister will gladly let anybody who is willing to do a dump run have all of my stuff, if they act quickly. Otherwise, she will hire a hauling outfit that WILL work quickly. She will gripe long and loud about how much it costs and how long it takes to throw away all of my stuff. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com AM I correct, APL on my tektronix 4015? Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Apr 14 22:49:38 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 20:49:38 -0700 Subject: Pass on (Was: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> <20170414013248.CC75D6D8A80E9@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20170414032232.GA1445@gmail.com> <12a522f0-dce4-c238-3078-4e1b4fd09982@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1126a784-f99e-bfe6-7796-66c8d7c62bff@jwsss.com> On 4/14/2017 8:20 PM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > I've made a will, with a bunch of specific bequests. No will, but at this point, the wife knows who to call. Already trying to figure out how to get things into longer term collections if they will stay there, and not get ebay-ed immediately. Hope it is far into the future before that happens to any of us, but it happens. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 15 00:05:40 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 05:05:40 +0000 Subject: Pass on (Was: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why In-Reply-To: <1126a784-f99e-bfe6-7796-66c8d7c62bff@jwsss.com> References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> <20170414013248.CC75D6D8A80E9@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20170414032232.GA1445@gmail.com> <12a522f0-dce4-c238-3078-4e1b4fd09982@telegraphics.com.au> , <1126a784-f99e-bfe6-7796-66c8d7c62bff@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I have a tiny APL that was written for the 8080 someplace. It has input that use ASCII keyboard input instead of the funny characters. I played with it a little on my IMSAI. The fellow had hand written and assembled it by hand. Not something I'd ever like to do. I make to many simple mistakes and I don't have any interest in erasure companies. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 8:49:38 PM To: william degnan; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Pass on (Was: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why On 4/14/2017 8:20 PM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > I've made a will, with a bunch of specific bequests. No will, but at this point, the wife knows who to call. Already trying to figure out how to get things into longer term collections if they will stay there, and not get ebay-ed immediately. Hope it is far into the future before that happens to any of us, but it happens. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 15 00:27:43 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:27:43 -0700 Subject: Pass on (Was: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> <20170414013248.CC75D6D8A80E9@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20170414032232.GA1445@gmail.com> <12a522f0-dce4-c238-3078-4e1b4fd09982@telegraphics.com.au> <1126a784-f99e-bfe6-7796-66c8d7c62bff@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <9dc0495a-cf94-0c13-c667-13be01c97def@sydex.com> On 04/14/2017 10:05 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I have a tiny APL that was written for the 8080 someplace. Just curious, has anyone saved the MCM/70 APL code? --Chuck From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Fri Apr 14 08:57:41 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:57:41 +0200 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/14/17, 2:31 PM, "cctech on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctech" wrote: > >OK. I just opend the little plastic box. > >It isn't shown, but I assume the end of the cable is a female >edge connector. Your other end is a male coming out of the box. >I have cables on both ends both ending in female connectors. > >The PC board shows two resistors and two transistors. Mine has >four resistors and two disk capacitors. > >Obviously not even similar. > >On another note, the box is labeled "To EI Screen Printer Port". >Not sure what that means as the EI has a "Line Printer Card Edge" >and not something specific to the Screen Printer. > >Bill Does it look like the cable in this eBay listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Radio-Shack-TRS-80-Screen-Printer-26-1151-w-Sealed- Paper-Manual-EXTREMELY-RARE-/201867426619? From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Fri Apr 14 08:57:41 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:57:41 +0200 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/14/17, 2:31 PM, "cctech on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctech" wrote: > >OK. I just opend the little plastic box. > >It isn't shown, but I assume the end of the cable is a female >edge connector. Your other end is a male coming out of the box. >I have cables on both ends both ending in female connectors. > >The PC board shows two resistors and two transistors. Mine has >four resistors and two disk capacitors. > >Obviously not even similar. > >On another note, the box is labeled "To EI Screen Printer Port". >Not sure what that means as the EI has a "Line Printer Card Edge" >and not something specific to the Screen Printer. > >Bill Does it look like the cable in this eBay listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Radio-Shack-TRS-80-Screen-Printer-26-1151-w-Sealed- Paper-Manual-EXTREMELY-RARE-/201867426619? From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Fri Apr 14 09:40:06 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 16:40:06 +0200 Subject: TRS-80 curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <162F8A58-92A6-425E-9804-0EC2A90FE875@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/14/17, 4:36 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk" wrote: > >________________________________________ >From: Camiel Vanderhoeven [camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com] > > >Does it look like the cable in this eBay listing: >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Radio-Shack-TRS-80-Screen-Printer-26-1151-w-Sealed >- >Paper-Manual-EXTREMELY-RARE-/201867426619? > >_____________________________________ > >Sorry, I didn't see any cable in that item. Just an extremely overpriced >printer. > >Or should I say firestarter? > >bill Terribly overpriced, I agree. The cable is shown in the 4th photo (from the back of the printer) From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Apr 14 16:13:34 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 14:13:34 -0700 Subject: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> <20170414013248.CC75D6D8A80E9@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20170414032232.GA1445@gmail.com> Message-ID: Love to have my Selectric in a desk APL terminal again. -pete On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 2:02 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > To my knowledge, there is only one person that claims to > > have a cartridge for the APL on the VideoBrain. He considers it > > more valuable than gold and won't let anyone look at it or > > dump its contents. > > Such code running on a VideoBrain would surely warrant the /S > > label for "Small". > > Without some form of bank switching the resources of the VideoBrain > > are minimal. > > It has almost no RAM and the decoding has mirrored images through > > the address space. > > The F8 was clearly intended as an embedded controller similar to > > the Rockwell PPS4. > > Dwight > > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Eric > Christopherson via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:22:32 PM > To: Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk > Subject: Re: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why is it so > successful? > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > > Toby Thain via cctalk wrote on Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:34:08 -0400 > > > On 2017-04-13 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > > So, whence APL today? > > > > > > Still lives on -- Dyalog, J, K, etc. Recently discovered the #jsoftware > > > channel on Freenode for APL fans. > > > > I consider Matlab and Julia to be spiritual descendents of APL. > > > > One thing that hurt APL in early microcomputers was that they used text > > mode with the wrong font. I would also have guessed that Basic could > > work better in really limited hardware, but some early APL > > implementations were impressively frugal. > > The VideoBrain home computer had something called APL/S, but I can't > find any information on how it differs from APL. Does anyone know? > > -- > Eric Christopherson > > From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Apr 15 00:00:29 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 01:00:29 -0400 Subject: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news Message-ID: <4ff1445b-e7ea-3c5d-3bb4-e38d05784fd9@snarc.net> Two computer industry pioneers died in the past week. Harry Huskey worked on ENIAC, the Pilot ACE, SWAC, and the Bendix G-15. He was also known for helping overseas universities start their CS programs. Harry was 101. Bob Taylor was an ARPAnet pioneer and Xerox PARC executive. He was 85. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Apr 15 08:49:18 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 13:49:18 +0000 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91260B71-2F3E-4472-A90A-B14A4B5878AF@swri.edu> On Apr 13, 2017, at 3:20 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 12:00 PM, shadoooo via cctech > wrote: >> Hello, >> I'm in the pretty same condition, I have a Rainbow 100B without memory >> expansion. >> Not sure however, about the correct board number, which would fit the 100B. >> What should I search for? > > The DEC part numbers for these are PC1XX-AY (128k) and PC1XX-AZ > (256k). I'm not sure what the board numbers are, and some auctions > list those instead. > > They are the same board. There's 4 switches on the board. One for each > of the 3 banks to select between 64kbit chips and 256kbit chips. You > want 4164 or 41256 for the board. It's super easy to upgrade (I bought > a AY back in the day and then 18 months later I bought 27 41256 chips > and swapped them out in about 10-15 minutes. > > I'm not sure what the 100A needs. I have no experience with the 100A hardware. > > Warner I?m pretty sure the PC100A takes the same board. I believe I have a 100A set up like that, but I?ll have to check when I get back (from vacation) in a week or so (unless you get a definitive answer before that). Meantime if you spot one of those boards, obviously it would be good to grab it; sounds like there are 100B users on-list who would be happy to give it a home if I?m wrong about it working in the 100A. Meantime, from my Rainbow Technical Manual copyright 1984 scan (ask, I have a fair number of these documents) which says it refers to model PC100A: Rainbow Memory Extension Option Installation Guide: EK-PCMKE-IN ?Two versions of the memory extension option are available: a 64 K byte option (part number PC1XX-AA) and a 192K byte option (part number PC1XX-AB). The memory option is installed in the J6 connector ? ? Both versions of the memory extension option use the same printed circuit board etch and the same type of 6kK x 1 bit memory chips. ? the 192K byte version contains twenty-seven 64K x 1 bit chips arranged as three 64K byte memory stacks. ... From my Rainbow Owner?s manual 1st ed. Sept 1983, Appx. C, Table C-1 ? 64K byte memory board option: PC1XX-AC 256K byte memory board option: PC1XX-AD 64K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AY 256K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AZ ? Hope this helps. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Apr 15 10:05:58 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 15:05:58 +0000 Subject: MISE and M3SE Message-ID: Well, now that I know there are TRS-80 afficianados here i wonder if there are any MISE/M3SE experts? I have both running here now and really like them. But, back in the "good ole days" I was priomarily a DOSPLUS user with a little NEWDOS80 once in a while. I was wondering if it is possible to get either or both of these DOSes working with the MISE & M3SE. Any suggestions? bill From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 15 10:34:12 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:34:12 -0500 Subject: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news In-Reply-To: <4ff1445b-e7ea-3c5d-3bb4-e38d05784fd9@snarc.net> References: <4ff1445b-e7ea-3c5d-3bb4-e38d05784fd9@snarc.net> Message-ID: <58F23D74.7030603@pico-systems.com> On 04/15/2017 12:00 AM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > Two computer industry pioneers died in the past week. > > Harry Huskey worked on ENIAC, the Pilot ACE, SWAC, and the > Bendix G-15. He was also known for helping overseas > universities start their CS programs. Harry was 101. > Wow, that's amazing. I had no idea he was still around! I hope he wrote up some memoirs or left stories. Jon From pete at pski.net Sat Apr 15 10:40:18 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:40:18 -0400 Subject: MISE and M3SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <952A026C-4508-43F0-959D-9DB3A3177547@pski.net> > On Apr 15, 2017, at 11:05 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > Well, now that I know there are TRS-80 afficianados here i wonder if there > are any MISE/M3SE experts? I have both running here now and really like > them. But, back in the "good ole days" I was priomarily a DOSPLUS user > with a little NEWDOS80 once in a while. I was wondering if it is possible > to get either or both of these DOSes working with the MISE & M3SE. > > Any suggestions? > > bill Bill, there is a MISE yahoo group that Peter Bartlett maintains and actively supports so you may want to ask there. But, I can tell you that MISE/M3SE utilize quite a bit of custom driver code so it would be a significant effort to support other OSes. However, its probably best to ask the creator himself. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 10:56:59 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:56:59 -0400 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: <91260B71-2F3E-4472-A90A-B14A4B5878AF@swri.edu> References: <91260B71-2F3E-4472-A90A-B14A4B5878AF@swri.edu> Message-ID: > > > Rainbow Memory Extension Option Installation Guide: EK-PCMKE-IN > > ?Two versions of the memory extension option are available: a 64 K byte > option (part number PC1XX-AA) and a 192K byte option (part number > PC1XX-AB). The memory option is installed in the J6 connector ? > ? Both versions of the memory extension option use the same printed > circuit board etch and the same type of 6kK x 1 bit memory chips. ? the > 192K byte version contains twenty-seven 64K x 1 bit chips arranged as three > 64K byte memory stacks. ... > > > From my Rainbow Owner?s manual 1st ed. Sept 1983, Appx. C, Table > C-1 > ? > 64K byte memory board option: PC1XX-AC > 256K byte memory board option: PC1XX-AD > 64K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AY > 256K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AZ > ? > > Hope this helps. Just chiming in...I am the person who provided Warner with the VENIX disks. I probably have more RAM than I need in my machines (I have three and I think I have an A, B, and a regular Rainbow here. All of this talk has peaked my interest to set mine up and see if the new Rainbow I just got this week works. In addition to VENIX I have a lot of other disks and parts. Not saying I plan to sell anything in particular, but once I assess my systems and get one good maxed out working system going I will probably sell off the spare parts. Bill From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Apr 15 11:32:27 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:32:27 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: References: <91260B71-2F3E-4472-A90A-B14A4B5878AF@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:56 AM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Rainbow Memory Extension Option Installation Guide: EK-PCMKE-IN >> >> ?Two versions of the memory extension option are available: a 64 K byte >> option (part number PC1XX-AA) and a 192K byte option (part number >> PC1XX-AB). The memory option is installed in the J6 connector ? >> ? Both versions of the memory extension option use the same printed >> circuit board etch and the same type of 6kK x 1 bit memory chips. ? the >> 192K byte version contains twenty-seven 64K x 1 bit chips arranged as three >> 64K byte memory stacks. ... >> >> >> From my Rainbow Owner?s manual 1st ed. Sept 1983, Appx. C, Table >> C-1 >> ? >> 64K byte memory board option: PC1XX-AC >> 256K byte memory board option: PC1XX-AD I think that have what looks like the AD option, but it only brings my Rainbow 100A up to 256k. I bought the 100A recently based on a seller telling me it was a 100B. Grump. But at least its floppy controller and drive are in much better shape than my old ones, so I have some parts now. Just not sure what to do with them, but they may become spare parts, which I might be willing to part with. Not sure yet. Also, the boards themselves have numbers like 53xxxxxx and don't list the actual part. So googling for them often involves googling for that number because it's what sellers have easily available to them... >> 64K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AY >> 256K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AZ >> ? >> >> Hope this helps. > > > > Just chiming in...I am the person who provided Warner with the VENIX > disks. I probably have more RAM than I need in my machines (I have three > and I think I have an A, B, and a regular Rainbow here. All of this talk > has peaked my interest to set mine up and see if the new Rainbow I just got > this week works. In addition to VENIX I have a lot of other disks and > parts. Cool! I've had much luck since we talked last. I'm 5 sectors away from having all the disks read. Well, and understanding the encoding used on the boot disk to store the serial number in a difficult to replicate manner. At least I think that's what's going on. See http://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2017/04/rainbow-100-venix86r-disks-found.html for a few details. Unfortunately, the 5 sectors are on User disks 2 and 3, so are early in the series, which may make all the other readable disks useless. Not sure if there was compression at the time, so maybe it will just corrupt a few files. This is out of 16 400k disks, so it's a quite high percentage for them being so old. Btw, anybody know what might be on an "Enhanced BWS Supplementary disk"? A quick google search didn't bring up anything, but it's a Version 7 Unix. I'm hoping it's the compiler, in which case I may be able to reconstruct the missing material from the V7 sources. Warner From kirkbdavis at me.com Sat Apr 15 12:23:35 2017 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:23:35 -0700 Subject: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news In-Reply-To: <4ff1445b-e7ea-3c5d-3bb4-e38d05784fd9@snarc.net> References: <4ff1445b-e7ea-3c5d-3bb4-e38d05784fd9@snarc.net> Message-ID: <742CD596-84DD-4A47-95B0-46B8E0A04285@me.com> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/technology/robert-taylor-innovator-who-shaped-modern-computing-dies-at-85.html?_r=0 > On Apr 14, 2017, at 10:00 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > > Two computer industry pioneers died in the past week. > > Harry Huskey worked on ENIAC, the Pilot ACE, SWAC, and the Bendix G-15. He was also known for helping overseas universities start their CS programs. Harry was 101. > > Bob Taylor was an ARPAnet pioneer and Xerox PARC executive. He was 85. > > > ________________________________ > Evan Koblentz, director > Vintage Computer Federation > a 501(c)3 educational non-profit > > evan at vcfed.org > (646) 546-9999 > > www.vcfed.org > facebook.com/vcfederation > twitter.com/vcfederation From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 15 13:29:15 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:29:15 -0700 Subject: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news In-Reply-To: <58F23D74.7030603@pico-systems.com> References: <4ff1445b-e7ea-3c5d-3bb4-e38d05784fd9@snarc.net> <58F23D74.7030603@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: some, but not enough Harry did an oral history at CHM when he became a fellow, as did Bob On 4/15/17 8:34 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Wow, that's amazing. I had no idea he was still around! I hope he wrote up some memoirs or left stories. > > Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 15 13:28:24 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 13:28:24 -0500 Subject: Nat Semi 32016 Genix backup floppies available Message-ID: <58F26648.6010701@pico-systems.com> As I may have mentioned a while back, I have dug out my backup floppy disks from my National Semiconductor Genix system. In 1984 or so, I built a clone of a Logical Microcomputer 32016 system and copied the OS. I used it for a while, but it was maddeningly slow. This system used a Multibus backplane and a Konan Taisho disk controller, that could handle MFM floppies and hard drives. This backup is from my copy of the system, and so has a few tidbits of mildly interesting stuff. One thing is I was helping Steve Ciarcia of Circuit Cellar magazine answer his mail, and as this was my only system with 5" floppies, I used it for that. So, this backup probably has some rather amusing replies to the totally INSANE questions he got. One of my favorites was "Steve, can you jot down on the back of an envelope the schematic for an IBM PC so I can hand wire it?" I also wrote a VERY BAD driver for a Versatec printer. It worked, but was insanely inefficient in graphics mode, and took a half hour per page to print. Worked fine in text mode, though. I don't remember what compilers we had on this, obviously C, and maybe Pascal and FORTRAN. Since it worked fine to read and write PC compatible floppies, the floppy format should be easy to read. But, I think this "backup" is a block by block dump of the file system. Notes on the floppies show : cp dc(0,0) on the first, cp dc(0,800) on the second, etc. So, if anyone wants to try to recover the files off this, I'd be glad to donate the set. It appears to be 2 boxes of floppies, 28 in total. I have some more floppies that seem to be the last half of an earlier backup, with less info on how it was written. Thanks, Jon From chd at chdickman.com Sat Apr 15 19:56:19 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 20:56:19 -0400 Subject: C, STL, primitive languages that live on and on ... Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? Message-ID: There are a lot of smart people here with wide ranging experiences, so I like to ask questions from time to time that get more to philosophy. So "If C is so evil why is it so successful" was one of those questions. The answer I see is that it is the path of least resistance to the most successful outcome in the time horizon of the effort. Or, it gets the job done. Personally, I am stuck in the machine control world where things like symbolic names and type checking are sometimes non-existant. And I wonder why. SIL-3 and PLe with stone knives and bearskins. On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: >> The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting. > You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when > your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area. I am familiar with STL (and some of the others). My question was not for help. I was trying to present a contrast between the nit-picking the list was doing about C and that fact that a huge amount of mission critical programming is done in languages that are essentially machine code. It was a ham fisted attempt. Don't post after too many high ABV IPA's. > FWIW, "STL" in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List". Why it > isn't "SL" is anyone's guess. Probably for the same reason that PZD is process data. > --Chuck -chuck From chd at chdickman.com Sat Apr 15 20:05:02 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 21:05:02 -0400 Subject: Silent 700 thermal paper Message-ID: How long does it last? I have two Silent 700 terminals that have not been used since the mid-80's and a box of thermal paper. Is the thermal paper any good or should I get some more before I try to play with the terminals. Is paper that wide available new and not NOS? I bought some TTY paper and it was NOS and so it is just about to disintegrate before I use it. -chuck From chd at chdickman.com Sat Apr 15 20:15:46 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 21:15:46 -0400 Subject: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards (or dec T-2052 transformers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do we know who made the transformers originally? I maintain some old industrial hardware designs that used pulse transformers from the mid-60's and I may still have catalogs and/or data sheets. -chuck On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > Using a t-2052 build up a test fixture, a pulse generator and a > oscilloscope and if have access to one a high bandwidth current probe. Use > the 2052s you have, record the curves etc and then make up some test > transformers. > > -Pete component engineer in a former life. > > On Apr 13, 2017 3:36 PM, "Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I realize it's a long shot, but does anyone have: >>> >> >> - Any spare T-2052s (or know of a source) >>> - Any idea what the T-2052 *was* so I can try to replace them. I haven't >>> found much detail as of yet. >>> >> >> Good news on this front! >> >> I had previously obtained a data sheet for the T2037, a similar >> transformer. >> >> I extracted 4 each T2037 and T2052 from a broken G228, and today I was >> able to get measurements off of them: >> >> T2037: >> A: 230uH, 170 mohm primary, 42.9uH 100 mohm secondary >> B: 220/170, 41.6/100 >> C: 232/170, 43.8/60 >> D: 231/170, 43/80 >> >> These are consistent with 16 turns and 7 turns of #33 wire, wound on an >> FT37-77 toroid per the instructions on the data sheet, and also with the >> 220 uH /43 uH 20% specs that appear there. >> >> Here are the T2052 measurements: >> A: 597/320, 597/320 >> B: 530/270, 530/270 >> C: 34/1040, 24/680 >> D: 551/280, 551/280 >> >> Ignoring "C", which is quite likely broken in some way, these are >> consistent with a 25 turn 1:1 transformer. I'm not sure what they are >> wound with, as #33 wire should give a lower DC resistance. >> (#34 is closer. It's also possible that they changed cores, but I suspect >> that they are also wound on FT37-77 cores.) >> >> It's possible that a fairly standard modern 1:1 pulse transformer could be >> substituted. The 78615/2JC, for instance is 500uH, 1:1 if you ignore the >> center tap pins. >> >> Vince >> From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 20:23:18 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 22:23:18 -0300 Subject: Silent 700 thermal paper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <613b3623-31a1-a56d-65cf-d70ddb263fdb@gmail.com> It would not hurt it to try, at worst the printout would be faint, how well the paper survives depends a lot on how it was stored. Direct sunlight definitely will degrade the paper that is why it is often in black bags. If the paper is 8.5" wide you could use the roll paper for thermal fax machines, that paper should be readily available at office supply stores. Paul. On 2017-04-15 10:05 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > How long does it last? > > I have two Silent 700 terminals that have not been used since the > mid-80's and a box of thermal paper. Is the thermal paper any good or > should I get some more before I try to play with the terminals. > > Is paper that wide available new and not NOS? I bought some TTY paper > and it was NOS and so it is just about to disintegrate before I use > it. > > -chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 15 20:29:30 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 18:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Silent 700 thermal paper In-Reply-To: <613b3623-31a1-a56d-65cf-d70ddb263fdb@gmail.com> References: <613b3623-31a1-a56d-65cf-d70ddb263fdb@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Apr 2017, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > It would not hurt it to try, at worst the printout would be faint, how well > the paper survives depends a lot on how it was stored. Direct sunlight > definitely will degrade the paper that is why it is often in black bags. If > the paper is 8.5" wide you could use the roll paper for thermal fax machines, > that paper should be readily available at office supply stores. Sheets of thermal paper can also be used (Gavilan printer used those, as did some of the fax machines) Expect the outer wraps of the roll to be the first to go bad, so you'll probably have to discard the outer fraction of each roll. From chrise at pobox.com Sat Apr 15 20:59:32 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 20:59:32 -0500 Subject: Silent 700 thermal paper In-Reply-To: <613b3623-31a1-a56d-65cf-d70ddb263fdb@gmail.com> References: <613b3623-31a1-a56d-65cf-d70ddb263fdb@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4892A8A2-3240-4347-AE09-3AB0687395EB@pobox.com> On April 15, 2017 8:23:18 PM CDT, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >It would not hurt it to try, at worst the printout would be faint, how >well the paper survives depends a lot on how it was stored. Direct >sunlight definitely will degrade the paper that is why it is often in >black bags. If the paper is 8.5" wide you could use the roll paper for > >thermal fax machines, that paper should be readily available at office >supply stores. > >Paul. > > >On 2017-04-15 10:05 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: >> How long does it last? >> >> I have two Silent 700 terminals that have not been used since the >> mid-80's and a box of thermal paper. Is the thermal paper any good or >> should I get some more before I try to play with the terminals. >> >> Is paper that wide available new and not NOS? I bought some TTY paper >> and it was NOS and so it is just about to disintegrate before I use >> it. >> >> -chuck I have used new thermal FAX paper purchased at Staples within the last two years in both Silent 700 model 725 (first generation) and model 745 (second gen) terminals with great success. I've found that even if the old paper hasn't darkened due to sunlight or more significantly, heat, age makes it brittle and so I decided not to risk it being too stiff or abrasive and damaging the print head. YMMV. Chris N0JCF -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 15 22:52:30 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 20:52:30 -0700 Subject: Silent 700 thermal paper In-Reply-To: <613b3623-31a1-a56d-65cf-d70ddb263fdb@gmail.com> References: <613b3623-31a1-a56d-65cf-d70ddb263fdb@gmail.com> Message-ID: My experience with thermal fax paper is that printed copy is best preserved. I discovered a couple of years ago, that manufacturers' faxed copies of data from the early 1990s have faded almost to unreadability. Not black, but faded, as with disappearing ink Storage was in a file folder in a file cabinet in temperature and humidity-controlled environment not exposed to light for very long at all I've had blue-line copies similarly fade after about 40 years. Thermofax, anyone? --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 15 23:04:58 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 23:04:58 -0500 Subject: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards (or dec T-2052 transformers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58F2ED6A.6050001@pico-systems.com> On 04/15/2017 08:15 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > Do we know who made the transformers originally? I maintain some old > industrial hardware designs that used pulse transformers from the > mid-60's and I may still have catalogs and/or data sheets. > > Some of the big names are Pulse Engineering and Rhombus Industries. I think DEC used Pulse Engineering in a lot of PDP-11 and VAX vintage stuff, so maybe they used them back in the PDP-8 days, too. Jon From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Sun Apr 16 02:06:28 2017 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 00:06:28 -0700 Subject: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards (or dec T-2052 transformers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <767045AC85F44FD2885541FEF248C034@Vincew7> From: Charles Dickman via cctalk: Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:15 PM > Do we know who made the transformers originally? I maintain some old > industrial hardware designs that used pulse transformers from the > mid-60's and I may still have catalogs and/or data sheets. The DEC part number for these parts is 16-05794. Variant -05 is the T2037, and variant -02 is the T2052. I don't remember any more how I did it, but at some point, I tracked these down to bhelectronics.com. The information they were able to provide for the T2037 shows the logo of Buckbee Mears Co. of St. Paul, Minn. and the stamp of the "Pulse Transformer Div". Presumably BH Electronics acquired Buckbee Mears at some point. They also indicate that they were manufactured to DEC's spec's. I wouldn't expect them to have much more information -- they indicated they'd sent me what they had, and that was paper records back in 2004. It would be great to turn up some old data sheets, though. The "code ident no." on the manufacturing docs is 08450, and the number 500-0587 is also repeated on every page. Vince From steven at malikoff.com Sun Apr 16 08:05:44 2017 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 23:05:44 +1000 Subject: VideoBrain APL/S (Was: APL and descendants - was Re: If C is so evil why In-Reply-To: References: <20170412145707.7942C18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170412155516.GA21568@brevard.conman.org> <94744be0-3a58-c23f-4932-55a239f10eef@gmail.com> <7990381d0e2842f1b749525c46ccdfcb@livingcomputers.org> <64038cd3-da5a-29f6-fc67-0213ad9b6907@sydex.com> <2CD16D0A-C39A-4733-8231-AA002144381B@shaw.ca> <20170414013248.CC75D6D8A80E9@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20170414032232.GA1445@gmail.com> <12a522f0-dce4-c238-3078-4e1b4fd09982@telegraphics.com.au> , <1126a784-f99e-bfe6-7796-66c8d7c62bff@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Dwight said > I have a tiny APL that was written for the 8080 someplace. > It has input that use ASCII keyboard input instead of the > funny characters. > I played with it a little on my IMSAI. The fellow had hand > written and assembled it by hand. > Not something I'd ever like to do. > I make to many simple mistakes and I don't have any interest > in erasure companies. > > Dwight I'm guessing the Videobrain APL/S was a port of EMPL, a tiny APL for the 8080 by Eric Mueller written in 1977 https://archive.org/details/ddj-1997-04-EMPL-Micro-APL-8080 that fitted in < 6Kb (and thanks to Dwight for disassembling the original code for this, given his extremely modest comment above.) Regarding porting 8080 code to the F8, this was mentioned by Jerry Fox in his article 'Tiny BASIC for the F8' from DDJ Vol 4 #39 October 1979 http://6502.org/documents/publications/dr_dobbs_journal/ where he said "Herewith is documentation and the source for a tiny BASIC Interpreter written for the F8 microcomputer. The structure of the program is copied from Palo Alto tiny BASIC written by Dr. Li-Chen Wang. It is to Dr. Wang?s credit that he wrote such an elegant program that it was fairly easy to convert to F8 from 8080 assembly language." Steve. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 09:48:08 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:48:08 -0500 Subject: C, STL, primitive languages that live on and on ... Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: COSS4 cant event find it on google On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 7:56 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > There are a lot of smart people here with wide ranging experiences, so > I like to ask questions from time to time that get more to philosophy. > So "If C is so evil why is it so successful" was one of those > questions. > > The answer I see is that it is the path of least resistance to the > most successful outcome in the time horizon of the effort. > > Or, it gets the job done. > > Personally, I am stuck in the machine control world where things like > symbolic names and type checking are sometimes non-existant. And I > wonder why. > > SIL-3 and PLe with stone knives and bearskins. > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > >> The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting. > > > You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when > > your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area. > > I am familiar with STL (and some of the others). My question was not > for help. I was trying to present a contrast between the nit-picking > the list was doing about C and that fact that a huge amount of mission > critical programming is done in languages that are essentially machine > code. > > It was a ham fisted attempt. Don't post after too many high ABV IPA's. > > > FWIW, "STL" in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List". Why it > > isn't "SL" is anyone's guess. > > Probably for the same reason that PZD is process data. > > > --Chuck > > -chuck > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 16 10:38:29 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news Message-ID: <20170416153829.E11BF18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > Harry did an oral history at CHM There are also a pair at the Smithsonian: http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0196_husk730419.pdf http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0196_husk720309.pdf and the CBI did one too, but alas it does not seem to be on-line (it's not in their OH index, and although Google searches for other ones from there turned them up, not this one): Harry D. Huskey, OH-83 Interviewer: Christopher Evans Date of interview: 1976 Anyone have a pointer to it? Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 16 10:59:23 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:59:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Extra copy of DOS Programmer's Handbook available Message-ID: <20170416155923.9C05B18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> I have an extra copy of: DEC-11-SERA-D Disk Operating System Monitor Programmer's Handbook, February 1971 if anyone has a use for it. Noel From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 13:28:54 2017 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:28:54 -0700 Subject: Remex Tape Reader - Pre-power up advice? Message-ID: Hi guys, I recently impulse-bought a paper tape reader from eBay, a Remex RRS6500BE1/660/DRB/U901 Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/292050475397 Pictures: https://goo.gl/photos/Wa3W7mtTwwuTczUV7 It has several enormous capacitors in it and I want to do my due diligence before powering it up. Does anyone have advice in this regard? I'm competent in soldering and rework of all sorts but definitely more in digital than analog. Also the spindles squeak very slightly - are they oilable? In general it looks to be in pristine condition; no dust and no magic-smoke smell. The only repair item I can find is a sticking tape roller and gentle bending oughta solve that. I await your thoughts! -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 14:25:16 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 13:25:16 -0600 Subject: Program Logic Manual (PLM) for APL\360 or APL.SV? Message-ID: Did IBM publish a Program Logic Manual (PLM) for APL\360, APL.SV, or any other APL language implementation, as they did for e.g. their FORTRAN(E) and PL/I(F) compilers? From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 16:45:15 2017 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 14:45:15 -0700 Subject: Remex Tape Reader - Pre-power up advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the tips, I think I'll replace the caps first as I don't own a variac. I'd rather not damage anything in case the foil in those caps have shorted upon application of full power. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:02 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > I would first be more concerned with the ones I've circled > > https://goo.gl/photos/jweLs4meE2to3mom8 > > Guessing this guy was built > 30-40 years ago. If it was mine I would > replace all the smaller ones. > > Get it over and done with. > > The ones that have screws, you can take the chance of putting a scope > across them (watch out if they are floating !!) and look at the ripple, I > any over say 2%, they are more than likely bad, but you can see if the > reform or not. More then a couple % and you can damage things. > > Other things I do > > Check the voltages quickly > > Check the thermal grease on all the heat sinks. > > -pete > > PS keep your eyes open from replacement lamps. > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi guys, >> >> I recently impulse-bought a paper tape reader from eBay, a Remex >> RRS6500BE1/660/DRB/U901 >> >> Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/292050475397 >> >> Pictures: https://goo.gl/photos/Wa3W7mtTwwuTczUV7 >> >> It has several enormous capacitors in it and I want to do my due diligence >> before powering it up. Does anyone have advice in this regard? I'm >> competent in soldering and rework of all sorts but definitely more in >> digital than analog. >> >> Also the spindles squeak very slightly - are they oilable? >> >> In general it looks to be in pristine condition; no dust and no >> magic-smoke >> smell. The only repair item I can find is a sticking tape roller and >> gentle >> bending oughta solve that. >> >> I await your thoughts! >> -- >> Anders Nelson >> >> +1 (517) 775-6129 >> >> www.erogear.com >> >> > From useddec at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 17:22:38 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:22:38 -0500 Subject: Extra copy of DOS Programmer's Handbook available Message-ID: Hi Noel, I don't think I need it it but I know someone on the list for about a year that probably does. Let me know the status. Can you call sometime this week? Thanks, Paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Apr 16 19:23:03 2017 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 01:23:03 +0100 Subject: Remex Tape Reader - Pre-power up advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0512beca-39c0-297a-0835-62d4b879083e@btinternet.com> There are what appear to be 1976 date codes on some caps. If its that old then replace all and any electrolytic capacitors plus any paper based caps. If they aint bad now they soon will be. Rod Smallwood On 16/04/2017 22:45, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for the tips, I think I'll replace the caps first as I don't own a > variac. I'd rather not damage anything in case the foil in those caps have > shorted upon application of full power. > > =] > > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:02 PM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > >> I would first be more concerned with the ones I've circled >> >> https://goo.gl/photos/jweLs4meE2to3mom8 >> >> Guessing this guy was built > 30-40 years ago. If it was mine I would >> replace all the smaller ones. >> >> Get it over and done with. >> >> The ones that have screws, you can take the chance of putting a scope >> across them (watch out if they are floating !!) and look at the ripple, I >> any over say 2%, they are more than likely bad, but you can see if the >> reform or not. More then a couple % and you can damage things. >> >> Other things I do >> >> Check the voltages quickly >> >> Check the thermal grease on all the heat sinks. >> >> -pete >> >> PS keep your eyes open from replacement lamps. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi guys, >>> >>> I recently impulse-bought a paper tape reader from eBay, a Remex >>> RRS6500BE1/660/DRB/U901 >>> >>> Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/292050475397 >>> >>> Pictures: https://goo.gl/photos/Wa3W7mtTwwuTczUV7 >>> >>> It has several enormous capacitors in it and I want to do my due diligence >>> before powering it up. Does anyone have advice in this regard? I'm >>> competent in soldering and rework of all sorts but definitely more in >>> digital than analog. >>> >>> Also the spindles squeak very slightly - are they oilable? >>> >>> In general it looks to be in pristine condition; no dust and no >>> magic-smoke >>> smell. The only repair item I can find is a sticking tape roller and >>> gentle >>> bending oughta solve that. >>> >>> I await your thoughts! >>> -- >>> Anders Nelson >>> >>> +1 (517) 775-6129 >>> >>> www.erogear.com >>> >>> -- There is no wrong or right Nor black and white. Just darknessand light From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Apr 16 21:17:40 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:17:40 -0700 Subject: Remex Tape Reader - Pre-power up advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d33b6dc-878e-6248-4ca1-f5da256f26ed@jwsss.com> On 4/16/2017 11:28 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Hi guys, > > I recently impulse-bought a paper tape reader from eBay, a Remex > RRS6500BE1/660/DRB/U901 > > Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/292050475397 > > Pictures: https://goo.gl/photos/Wa3W7mtTwwuTczUV7 > I have a half a dozen of these. A friend used them to punch tapes for an automatic wire wrap machine (actually 3 of those) for his business. When we went to Remex in the early 80's in Irvine for service they had probably 100 in the pipeline for rebuild for the Air Force. They were used extensively for a very long time with AWACS and other systems the AF had, and that kept the service part of Remex running for a long time. I don't know if anyone took that over, but it may still be around here in Orange County. The colors of the unit you have identifies it as one that was potentially built for Microdata. The putty color matches the 1600 front panel. http://s7.computerhistory.org/is/image/CHM/102718928p-03-05?$re-medium$ The CHM website is fubar for me today, or I'd send a larger photo. The panel strip thru the middle is the same color. The usual Remex i've seen I think have either black and silver or blue and silver. Or other OEM colors. Nice find. Please update here, or to me directly as you work on it. My units were used up thru the 90's and have newer service dates, and my not have the capacitor problem, but not worth taking chances. thanks Jim From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Apr 16 14:02:55 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:02:55 -0700 Subject: Remex Tape Reader - Pre-power up advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would first be more concerned with the ones I've circled https://goo.gl/photos/jweLs4meE2to3mom8 Guessing this guy was built > 30-40 years ago. If it was mine I would replace all the smaller ones. Get it over and done with. The ones that have screws, you can take the chance of putting a scope across them (watch out if they are floating !!) and look at the ripple, I any over say 2%, they are more than likely bad, but you can see if the reform or not. More then a couple % and you can damage things. Other things I do Check the voltages quickly Check the thermal grease on all the heat sinks. -pete PS keep your eyes open from replacement lamps. On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi guys, > > I recently impulse-bought a paper tape reader from eBay, a Remex > RRS6500BE1/660/DRB/U901 > > Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/292050475397 > > Pictures: https://goo.gl/photos/Wa3W7mtTwwuTczUV7 > > It has several enormous capacitors in it and I want to do my due diligence > before powering it up. Does anyone have advice in this regard? I'm > competent in soldering and rework of all sorts but definitely more in > digital than analog. > > Also the spindles squeak very slightly - are they oilable? > > In general it looks to be in pristine condition; no dust and no magic-smoke > smell. The only repair item I can find is a sticking tape roller and gentle > bending oughta solve that. > > I await your thoughts! > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Apr 16 17:39:37 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 15:39:37 -0700 Subject: Remex Tape Reader - Pre-power up advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In equipment that has regulators, increasing the line voltage can have its own issues. I have a very fast acting adjustable solid state circuit breaker. If the running current is under say 100 W, a incandescent lamp in series is a poor mans current limiter. I has been a long time but a couple other things coming into focus is I'd pull the lamp before powering up and measuring the voltage across its terminals, and check if say a power supply went crazy would it damage the optical to electrical parts. 25 years ago I could have handed you a optical pickup for free, but all my Remex spares are now history. On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Anders Nelson wrote: > Thanks for the tips, I think I'll replace the caps first as I don't own a > variac. I'd rather not damage anything in case the foil in those caps have > shorted upon application of full power. > > =] > > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 <(517)%20775-6129> > > www.erogear.com > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:02 PM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > >> I would first be more concerned with the ones I've circled >> >> https://goo.gl/photos/jweLs4meE2to3mom8 >> >> Guessing this guy was built > 30-40 years ago. If it was mine I would >> replace all the smaller ones. >> >> Get it over and done with. >> >> The ones that have screws, you can take the chance of putting a scope >> across them (watch out if they are floating !!) and look at the ripple, I >> any over say 2%, they are more than likely bad, but you can see if the >> reform or not. More then a couple % and you can damage things. >> >> Other things I do >> >> Check the voltages quickly >> >> Check the thermal grease on all the heat sinks. >> >> -pete >> >> PS keep your eyes open from replacement lamps. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi guys, >>> >>> I recently impulse-bought a paper tape reader from eBay, a Remex >>> RRS6500BE1/660/DRB/U901 >>> >>> Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/292050475397 >>> >>> Pictures: https://goo.gl/photos/Wa3W7mtTwwuTczUV7 >>> >>> It has several enormous capacitors in it and I want to do my due >>> diligence >>> before powering it up. Does anyone have advice in this regard? I'm >>> competent in soldering and rework of all sorts but definitely more in >>> digital than analog. >>> >>> Also the spindles squeak very slightly - are they oilable? >>> >>> In general it looks to be in pristine condition; no dust and no >>> magic-smoke >>> smell. The only repair item I can find is a sticking tape roller and >>> gentle >>> bending oughta solve that. >>> >>> I await your thoughts! >>> -- >>> Anders Nelson >>> >>> +1 (517) 775-6129 >>> >>> www.erogear.com >>> >>> >> > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 00:25:30 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 00:25:30 -0500 Subject: Remex Tape Reader - Pre-power up advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: simlar to one of these? http://imageshack.com/a/img922/6626/eQjeFK.jpg From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 17 05:19:33 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 22:19:33 +1200 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= Message-ID: Hi, Just an update on this. I still haven't got those 8' floppies of unknown origin to play with but I HAVE made a lot of progress with my own disks. Thanks to everyone who gave me help with this. Here's a writeup for those interested: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part1.htm Terry (Tez) From pete at pski.net Mon Apr 17 06:03:54 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 07:03:54 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 34, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6FD36C2B-4C5E-48C9-89F1-FFD848118582@pski.net> > On Apr 16, 2017, at 8:13 PM, Tim Mann via cctech wrote: > > I hadn't heard of the MISE or M3SE before, so I googled. Remarkable > projects. It's pretty tempting to get an M3SE to play with on the Model 4P > that I bought as a reference platform when I was adding 4P support to xtrs. > (I don't have any other physical TRS-80s anymore.) Time continues to be a > big problem in the way of doing retrocomputing stuff, though. > Good to hear from you, Tim. Speaking as someone else with the lack of time issue these days, the M3SE makes using the TRS-80 so much simpler and easier that you get to actually spend time using it rather than spending your little spare time getting it working. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Apr 17 06:49:42 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 11:49:42 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 34, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctech [cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Tim Mann via cctech [cctech at classiccmp.org] Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 8:13 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: cctech Digest, Vol 34, Issue 15 Brief comments on a couple of topics... I hadn't heard of the MISE or M3SE before, so I googled. Remarkable projects. It's pretty tempting to get an M3SE to play with on the Model 4P that I bought as a reference platform when I was adding 4P support to xtrs. (I don't have any other physical TRS-80s anymore.) Time continues to be a big problem in the way of doing retrocomputing stuff, though. _____________________________________________ Definitely worth it. It will boot directly from the M3SE making it a lot easier to do stuff. And with the FTP capability I just had an old BASIC program I ran years ago that I wanted to revive. Used FTP to move it back and forth between my Model 1 and a Unix system in order to have a real editor for fixing all the mistakes. Then used FTP to move the program to the 4P to test it out there as well. Never realized the speed difference in the various models until I cold run stuff like this side by side. bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 17 09:34:03 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:34:03 +0000 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks._Any?= =?Windows-1252?Q?_thoughts=85?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tez You where lucky. You had a format that was more or less standard. I have disk done in formats that are not so common. One was a real toughie. I had some 5.25 and some 8 inch hard sectored disk in MFM format. These were for the Polymorphic machines. I'd modified a Polymorphic 8 inch controller to run at the lower frequency of the 5.25 disk and was able to read most all of the 5.25 disk. This was the bulk of what needed to be done. I used my Poly88 as the reader and controlled it remotely from my PC through the serial lead. I'd never got the time to reconfigure the controller board for the 8 inch disk. I finally got help form Chuck who was able to extract the data. Ihad to parse it into files but that was the easier part. These are not in the common Polymorphic format that used the controller similar to the NorthStar. These were still hard sectored but MFM instead of FM. It was non-standard because it didn't use the ID and other MFM soft sectored markers. What was cool about the 8 inch disk is that they contained the entire source code for the BASIC that Polymorphic used. As an example of other formats, my Nicolet 1080 uses 8 inch 32 hard sectored disk and formats them as only two sector per track of 512 20 bit words. None of these formats would read correctly on a PC controller. One of the bit timing formats type of reader would have been needed. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Terry Stewart via cctalk Sent: Monday, April 17, 2017 3:19:33 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts? Hi, Just an update on this. I still haven't got those 8' floppies of unknown origin to play with but I HAVE made a lot of progress with my own disks. Thanks to everyone who gave me help with this. Here's a writeup for those interested: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part1.htm Adventures with an 8 inch (8?) disk drive - Part 1. New acquisition: A Mitsubishi M2896-63 www.classic-computers.org.nz This page contains part 1 of an article on disk imaging experiences with an 8 inch disk drive Terry (Tez) From earl at baugh.org Mon Apr 17 13:40:32 2017 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:40:32 -0400 Subject: Kennedy 9000 Tape Drives, Terminals and Packs Message-ID: I was helping out someone here locally to dig thru a pile of electronics that he had obtained in helping out a woman clean out her house. Her husband passed away and she wanted the space back. Apparently the husband "somehow" dealt in HW repair. A good number of the items were known broken spares, Shugart 1004 drives (about 36) and a couple tandem floppies. Those he found a new home for. There were a few items that I told him I'd help circulate info on since they are a bit more specialized (I'm just trying to help him liquidate the items, he is surprising the woman who he got it from with a cash gift when this is done) 1) 2 NOS Kennedy 9000 series tape drives. I checked, they look pristine. There was an invoice that says they're Kennedy 9000-3, 4s models. 2) 9 drive packs. marked ATHANA, which may be RK05 packs (I couldn't find any markings on them to indicate what size, etc.) 3) Lastly he has two Visual 50 terminals. This is all in the Atlanta area, so if you have any interest, let me know and I can relay information to him. Obviously the Kennedy drives would cost a bit to ship... Thanks. Earl From rickb at bensene.com Mon Apr 17 15:11:04 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:11:04 -0700 Subject: Kennedy 9000 Tape Drives, Terminals and Packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A87B@mail.bensene.com> > I was helping out someone here locally to dig thru a pile of electronics that he had obtained in helping out a woman clean out her house. > Her husband passed away and she wanted the space back. Apparently the husband "somehow" dealt in HW repair. > A good number of the items were known broken spares, Shugart 1004 drives (about 36) and a couple tandem floppies. > Those he found a new home for. With that many 1004 drives, surely quite a few can be made to work again. They are weird drives, though...very strange interface, and very few interface cards to hook 'em up to computers. > There were a few items that I told him I'd help circulate info on since they are a bit more specialized (I'm just trying to help him liquidate the items, he is surprising the woman who he got it from with a cash gift when this > is done) > 1) 2 NOS Kennedy 9000 series tape drives. I checked, they look pristine. > There was an invoice that says they're Kennedy 9000-3, 4s models. Wow! One of those would be very cool to get. I can't find any information on the "4S" model, though. I am wondering if it has a SCSI interface. If it does, even better. It's kind of a limited drive, only doing 800 or 1600BPI (no 6250), and only runs at 45 inches per second, so it's not very fast. But, still, if it is SCSI, it could definitely be interesting. Do you know if there are any docs there with them? Any way to tell what interface they use? I would actually be interested in laying hands one of them. In reading stuff online, it does appear that these drives were frequently configured with SCSI interfaces. Is there any way that this can be checked. The "4S" model number seems encouraging. 2) 9 drive packs. marked ATHANA, which may be RK05 packs (I couldn't find any markings on them to indicate what size, etc.) ATHANA was a magnetic media manufacturer. They made floppy disks and cartridge hard disk drives that were compatible with many vendors' hard disk system. If they look like RK05 packs, they are probably compatible with DEC RK05 or RK07 drives for PDP 8 or PDP 11 systems. The difference between the packs is the number of index slits in the index hub on the bottom of the pack. 12 index slits (not counting the one "home" reference slit which is at an "odd" location) indicates that it's for a 16-bit system, like PDP 11. If 16 index slits, then it's for a 12-bit system, like PDP 8. If they are 16-slit packs, and look very RK05-ish, I might be interested in 'em because I don't have many disk packs for my PDP 8/e system. 3) Lastly he has two Visual 50 terminals. I think I've got enough terminals. Now, if they were Ann Arbor Ambassador terminals, I would be interested . Can some photos be taken of the disk cartridges, and perhaps the back of the Kennedy drives to see what the interface connector(s) look like? Is this person wanting money for the stuff, or just to get rid of it? Shipping the Kennedy drive would be expensive, and I'd worry about damage, so it'd probably have to be custom crated. That could get pretty expensive. But, to me it is worth checking into if the drive looks like it has a SCSI interface. Thanks, Earl, good stuff! Hope all is going well for you. Blessings, -Rick From guy at cuillin.org.uk Mon Apr 17 15:23:04 2017 From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:23:04 +0100 Subject: C, STL, primitive languages that live on and on ... Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think timing had a lot to do with C's success. It's a decent language and at the time powerful and flexible compared to other languages. Universities picked up UNIX and C and taught a lot of students. The went forth taking their skills with them. On 16 April 2017 at 01:56, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > There are a lot of smart people here with wide ranging experiences, so > I like to ask questions from time to time that get more to philosophy. > So "If C is so evil why is it so successful" was one of those > questions. > > The answer I see is that it is the path of least resistance to the > most successful outcome in the time horizon of the effort. > > Or, it gets the job done. > > Personally, I am stuck in the machine control world where things like > symbolic names and type checking are sometimes non-existant. And I > wonder why. > > SIL-3 and PLe with stone knives and bearskins. > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > >> The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting. > > > You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when > > your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area. > > I am familiar with STL (and some of the others). My question was not > for help. I was trying to present a contrast between the nit-picking > the list was doing about C and that fact that a huge amount of mission > critical programming is done in languages that are essentially machine > code. > > It was a ham fisted attempt. Don't post after too many high ABV IPA's. > > > FWIW, "STL" in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List". Why it > > isn't "SL" is anyone's guess. > > Probably for the same reason that PZD is process data. > > > --Chuck > > -chuck > -- 4.4 > 5.4 From rickb at bensene.com Mon Apr 17 15:26:13 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:26:13 -0700 Subject: Kennedy 9000 Tape Drives, Terminals and Packs In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A87B@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A87B@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A87D@mail.bensene.com> Sorry all, this was meant to be a personal Email. Still haven't gotten used to the new way that the list works. My apologies. -Rick -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Bensene via cctalk Sent: Monday, April 17, 2017 1:11 PM To: Earl Baugh; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Kennedy 9000 Tape Drives, Terminals and Packs > I was helping out someone here locally to dig thru a pile of electronics that he had obtained in helping out a woman clean out her house. > Her husband passed away and she wanted the space back. Apparently the husband "somehow" dealt in HW repair. > A good number of the items were known broken spares, Shugart 1004 drives (about 36) and a couple tandem floppies. > Those he found a new home for. With that many 1004 drives, surely quite a few can be made to work again. They are weird drives, though...very strange interface, and very few interface cards to hook 'em up to computers. > There were a few items that I told him I'd help circulate info on > since they are a bit more specialized (I'm just trying to help him > liquidate the items, he is surprising the woman who he got it from > with a cash gift when this > is done) > 1) 2 NOS Kennedy 9000 series tape drives. I checked, they look pristine. > There was an invoice that says they're Kennedy 9000-3, 4s models. Wow! One of those would be very cool to get. I can't find any information on the "4S" model, though. I am wondering if it has a SCSI interface. If it does, even better. It's kind of a limited drive, only doing 800 or 1600BPI (no 6250), and only runs at 45 inches per second, so it's not very fast. But, still, if it is SCSI, it could definitely be interesting. Do you know if there are any docs there with them? Any way to tell what interface they use? I would actually be interested in laying hands one of them. In reading stuff online, it does appear that these drives were frequently configured with SCSI interfaces. Is there any way that this can be checked. The "4S" model number seems encouraging. 2) 9 drive packs. marked ATHANA, which may be RK05 packs (I couldn't find any markings on them to indicate what size, etc.) ATHANA was a magnetic media manufacturer. They made floppy disks and cartridge hard disk drives that were compatible with many vendors' hard disk system. If they look like RK05 packs, they are probably compatible with DEC RK05 or RK07 drives for PDP 8 or PDP 11 systems. The difference between the packs is the number of index slits in the index hub on the bottom of the pack. 12 index slits (not counting the one "home" reference slit which is at an "odd" location) indicates that it's for a 16-bit system, like PDP 11. If 16 index slits, then it's for a 12-bit system, like PDP 8. If they are 16-slit packs, and look very RK05-ish, I might be interested in 'em because I don't have many disk packs for my PDP 8/e system. 3) Lastly he has two Visual 50 terminals. I think I've got enough terminals. Now, if they were Ann Arbor Ambassador terminals, I would be interested . Can some photos be taken of the disk cartridges, and perhaps the back of the Kennedy drives to see what the interface connector(s) look like? Is this person wanting money for the stuff, or just to get rid of it? Shipping the Kennedy drive would be expensive, and I'd worry about damage, so it'd probably have to be custom crated. That could get pretty expensive. But, to me it is worth checking into if the drive looks like it has a SCSI interface. Thanks, Earl, good stuff! Hope all is going well for you. Blessings, -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 17 15:33:03 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:33:03 -0700 Subject: C, STL, primitive languages that live on and on ... Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/17/2017 01:23 PM, Guy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > I think timing had a lot to do with C's success. > > It's a decent language and at the time powerful and flexible compared > to other languages. Universities picked up UNIX and C and taught a > lot of students. The went forth taking their skills with them. C is pretty much mandatory if you wanted to use Unix. And Unix was one of the very few "portable" operating systems. So, initially, you saw C only in Unix shops. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 17 16:03:28 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 17:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Horrible error in "pdp11 bus handbook" Message-ID: <20170417210328.6662F18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Just a heads-up that the 1979 edition of the "pdp11 bus handbook" has a very serious editing error in it, in the description of UNIBUS arbitration. On page 38, immediately after step 13 of the NPR Arbitration Sequence ("13. .... SACK must be negated before BBSY may be negated."), it says "A bus master may issue an interrupt command to the interrupt fielding processor." Despite its location in the text, this does __NOT__ apply to the "NPR arbitration sequence" being discussed above. There is an editing error - this text is (or _should be_) separate from the "NPR Arbitration Sequence" section just before it; it belongs with "BR Interrupt Arbitration Sequence" - that header (on pg. 39) was put in the wrong place. The 1975 "peripherals handbook" has very similar text, but it _does_ have a section header after the NPR details (line 13 is identical), and before the start of the (very similar) BR text ("A bus master that has gained control ... through a BRn/BGn arbitration transaction may issue an interrupt command to the processor."). Noel From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Apr 17 17:51:54 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 15:51:54 -0700 Subject: Kennedy 9000 Tape Drives, Terminals and Packs In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A87B@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A87B@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <0182ae51-082e-64bf-0fc9-c3660e667686@jwsss.com> On 4/17/2017 1:11 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: >> There was an invoice that says they're Kennedy 9000-3, 4s models. > Wow! One of those would be very cool to get. I can't find any information on the "4S" model, though. I am wondering if it has a SCSI interface. If it does, even better. Could they be 9000-3-45? I've seen this happen other times where an 5 reads as an S after a while. They would be great, but opposite side of country for me to make any offer. thanks Jim From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 17 18:36:01 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 11:36:01 +1200 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= Message-ID: >Here's a writeup for those interested: >http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15- adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part1.htm One thing in this project puzzled me. Initially when I was testing the drive I tried to format it for 77-tracks. I used the command FORMAT B: /u /T:77 /N:15 . It wouldn't let me. MS-DOS said " "Formatting 1.15M parameters not supported by the drive" After trying a few other things (unsuccessfully) I just tried a straight FORMAT B: /u It then formatted it without complaint? Listening to the head moving, I counted 77 tracks. The last three tracks the clicking stopped. I'm assuming the head just wrote over that final track 3 times. MS-DOS told me I'd formatted for 1.2MB. I'm puzzled why I couldn't format the disk using the /t:77 and /n:15 switches. Did MS-DOS just go by what was in the CMOS. If that's the case, why have those switches at all? Are they just legacy switches for pre-CMOS machines? Anyone know the answer to this? Terry (Tez) > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 17 19:25:02 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 00:25:02 +0000 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks._Any?= =?Windows-1252?Q?_thoughts=85?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some times it reads part of the disk. I don't know what it is looking at but it won't format over some types of original data. I've often erased with supper magnet to get past such stuff. It may also be that is just doesn't support 77 and can only do 80 tracks. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Terry Stewart via cctalk Sent: Monday, April 17, 2017 4:36:01 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts? >Here's a writeup for those interested: >http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15- adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part1.htm One thing in this project puzzled me. Initially when I was testing the drive I tried to format it for 77-tracks. I used the command FORMAT B: /u /T:77 /N:15 . It wouldn't let me. MS-DOS said " "Formatting 1.15M parameters not supported by the drive" After trying a few other things (unsuccessfully) I just tried a straight FORMAT B: /u It then formatted it without complaint? Listening to the head moving, I counted 77 tracks. The last three tracks the clicking stopped. I'm assuming the head just wrote over that final track 3 times. MS-DOS told me I'd formatted for 1.2MB. I'm puzzled why I couldn't format the disk using the /t:77 and /n:15 switches. Did MS-DOS just go by what was in the CMOS. If that's the case, why have those switches at all? Are they just legacy switches for pre-CMOS machines? Anyone know the answer to this? Terry (Tez) > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 17 19:37:22 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 17:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Extracting files off unknown 8_inch_disks Any thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > I'm puzzled why I couldn't format the disk using the /t:77 and /n:15 > switches. Did MS-DOS just go by what was in the CMOS. If that's the case, > why have those switches at all? Are they just legacy switches for > pre-CMOS machines? The /T: and /N: switches do NOT set the number of tracks and sectors! They just don't! Instead, their function is to gather answers to those questions from the user, that the OS then uses to select which one of its limited number of formats matches what the user is requesting. It's like retail sales systems that ask my city, ask my ZIPCODE, and then change my city in my address from Berkeley to Albany for zipcode 94706 and from El Cerrito to Richmond with Zip 94530. (Yes, there are MANY ZIPCODES that straddle city boundaries, MANY that straddle county boundaries (a problem in correct computation of sales tax (cf. XenoSoft Sales Tax Genie)), and even a few that straddle state boundaries.) For example, /N: has values of 8, 9, 15 /12 won't be accepted. /T: has values of 40 and 80. If you are using a Shugart SA400, it should have also accepted 35. If you are using an 8" drive, it should also have accepted 77. For that matter, it should accept anything less than or equal to the limits of the drive, and use what you ask for, so that you could format 35 tracks, or 77, or 70, or 53, if you want, instead of only using your request as a selection between it's option. It has a very finite list of supported formats, and uses your variable settings only to select which one of THOSE to use! At one time, MS-DOS had some other drive types! DRIVPARM (and the related DRIVER.SYS device driver) were first visible in DOS 3.20 (the first time that all DOS supported 720K, although many OEM versions of 2.11 were configured with manufacturer specific additional drive types, such as Gavilan 720K MS-DOS 2.11K) DRIVER.SYS created a new drive letter (at the end of your drive letter list) accessing the drive, whereas DRIVPARM did an override of the drive type that was set in CMOS. If your BIOS CMOS settings didn't include 720K, you could set the CMOS to 360K, and use DRIVPARM/DRIVER.SYS to switch it to 720K. With DRIVPARM, it could still be B:, but with DRIVER.SYS, it would have a letter after your hard disk, etc. (Did you set LASTDRIVE?) At that time, type 7 (1.4M) and type 9 (2.8M) didn't exist yet, and it would also balk at drive types that were contrary to what DOS believed that the BIOS/hardware could support. (Neither the hardware nor INT13h needed any change to switch from a 160K/180K/320K/360K drive to a 720K) But, with DOS Version 6.00, type 3 (single-density 8-inch floppy disk drives) and type 4 (double-density 8-inch floppy disk drives) are no longer supported. With your CMOS set to drive type 1 (1.2M), what happens if you try to use DRIVPARM/DRIVER.SYS in DOS 5.00 to switch to type 4? Or /F:4 in DRIVER.SYS? NOTE: Many sources, INCLUDING MICROSOFT "support", have erroneous information about which versions of MS-DOS and PC-DOS support DRIVPARM. It's understandable, with MY experience I could easily misinterpret it in numerous incorrect assumptions. On a generic 5170, using 720K drive WITH PC-DOS and MS-DOS 3.20, DRIVPARM worked fine. But, when I replaced its BIOS with a copy of the "real" IBM BIOS, both operating systems reported "UNRECOGNIZED CONFIG.SYS COMMAND" for DRIVPARM! So, I had to use DRIVER.SYS. Replicated on an OEM 5170. Other weirdities surface: Chuck reported needing to tamper with the CONFIG.SYS line to use it. (perhaps he could repeat his explanation?) and http://www.uncreativelabs.net/textfiles/dos/BDRIVE.TXT -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 17 19:39:23 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 12:39:23 +1200 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >It may also be that is just doesn't support 77 and can only do 80 tracks. I don't think it is this. I can format it fine with 77 tracks using 22DSK and IMD. It has no problem reading or writing to 77 track formatted disks. Terry From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 17 19:39:33 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 17:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks._Any?= =?Windows-1252?Q?_thoughts=85?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2017, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Some times it reads part of the disk. I don't know what it is looking at > but it won't format over some types of original data. I've often erased > with supper magnet to get past such stuff. That really got silly when they added "UNFORMAT"! > It may also be that is just doesn't support 77 and can only do 80 tracks. SOME version used to. Not any more. In the very early days, you could buy MS-DOS on 8"! From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 17 19:43:02 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 12:43:02 +1200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFJlOiBFeHRyYWN0aW5nIGZpbGVzIG9mZiDigJx1bmtub3du4oCdIDggaW5jaCBkaQ==?= =?UTF-8?B?c2tzLiBBbnkgdGhvdWdodHPigKY=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>It may also be that is just doesn't support 77 and can only do 80 tracks. >I don't think it is this. I can format it fine with 77 tracks using 22DSK and IMD. It has no problem reading or >writing to 77 track formatted disks. Oh sorry Dwight, I thought you meant the drive here. You mean MS-DOS 6.22 I guess. Terry (Tez) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 17 20:19:47 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 18:19:47 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?= =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91f3a7af-39a7-e34e-1923-70a600757756@sydex.com> On 04/17/2017 05:43 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: >>> It may also be that is just doesn't support 77 and can only do 80 >>> tracks. > >> I don't think it is this. I can format it fine with 77 tracks >> using 22DSK > and IMD. It has no problem reading or >writing to 77 track formatted > disks. > > Oh sorry Dwight, I thought you meant the drive here. You mean MS-DOS > 6.22 I guess. What Fred said. MS-DOS's format matches the parameters against what it knows, not what you tell it. For instance, you can't do /n:14 /t:80. IMD and 22Disk have their own formatters and talk to the hardware directly. If you can find an old registered copy of FORMATQM, it allowed very flexible formatting. So, you could format a DMF floppy by defining a format in the FORMATS.CFG file thus: DMF: LENGTH 512 SECTORS 21 CYLINDERS 80 CLUSTER 2 RESERVED 1 FIRST 1 MEDIAB 0F0 SIDES 2 INTERLEAVE 2 SKEW 3 DIRECTORY 16 You can even define your own boot sector. FWIW, Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 17 21:01:45 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 14:01:45 +1200 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: <91f3a7af-39a7-e34e-1923-70a600757756@sydex.com> References: <91f3a7af-39a7-e34e-1923-70a600757756@sydex.com> Message-ID: >If you can find an old registered copy of FORMATQM, it allowed very >flexible formatting. So, you could format a DMF floppy by defining a >format in the FORMATS.CFG file thus: Reminds me of NEWDOS/80 V2 on the TRS-80 Mod 1/III. The PDRIVE command let you define your very own disk format! No one else but you could read it of course (: Yes, so it's as I thought re: formatting the 8 inch drive. MS-DOS felt it knew better than I did. >If you are using an 8" drive, it should also have accepted 77. Yes, the point is Fred, it didn't. So, if /N is 15, then it must ONLY accept T:40 or 80, yea? Terry (Tez) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 17 22:18:00 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 20:18:00 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?= =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?= In-Reply-To: References: <91f3a7af-39a7-e34e-1923-70a600757756@sydex.com> Message-ID: <80e77f1e-45e5-d919-d763-094d8196056b@sydex.com> On 04/17/2017 07:01 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > Yes, the point is Fred, it didn't. So, if /N is 15, then it must > ONLY accept T:40 or 80, yea? WinNT/2K/XP will read Japanese PC98 MS-DOS 1024*8*2*77, but I don't know if it'll format that particular format (never tried). --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 17 23:20:01 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?= =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?= In-Reply-To: <80e77f1e-45e5-d919-d763-094d8196056b@sydex.com> References: <91f3a7af-39a7-e34e-1923-70a600757756@sydex.com> <80e77f1e-45e5-d919-d763-094d8196056b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > WinNT/2K/XP will read Japanese PC98 MS-DOS 1024*8*2*77, but I don't know > if it'll format that particular format (never tried). Doubtful on FORMAT, since that is working from a very short list of choices, but reading (and hence writing) can be based on what it knows or finds out about the disk. Well, FORMAT.EXE on a PC98 machine would certainly know how to do it. Is track 0 sector 1, formatted as 512BPS? If not, how does it even come up with the idea to try 1024BPS? (in order to read it, to find out that it should try it for reading it...) (at location 0Bh in the BIOS Parameter Block, is the bytes per sector, but unless that sector is 512BPS, how did the OS read it to know to use that?) BPB doesn't include the number of tracks, but it does have the sectors per track, heads, and total number of sectors. It also has the "Media Descriptor Byte", but I wouldn't rely too much on that.) From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 22:30:38 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 23:30:38 -0400 Subject: Got a request for an image of CP/M for Morrow Disk Jockey Message-ID: I got a request through my web site for a CP/M System Boot Disk for the Morrow Disk Jockey DMA Controller Board. Anyone have an image I could make to help this guy out? Thanks BIll From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 18 00:06:13 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 22:06:13 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?= =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?= In-Reply-To: References: <91f3a7af-39a7-e34e-1923-70a600757756@sydex.com> <80e77f1e-45e5-d919-d763-094d8196056b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8a0ea9bf-5f9c-17fa-d631-b28dfc0209de@sydex.com> On 04/17/2017 09:20 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Is track 0 sector 1, formatted as 512BPS? If not, how does it even > come up with the idea to try 1024BPS? (in order to read it, to find > out that it should try it for reading it...) > > (at location 0Bh in the BIOS Parameter Block, is the bytes per > sector, but unless that sector is 512BPS, how did the OS read it to > know to use that?) BPB doesn't include the number of tracks, but it > does have the sectors per track, heads, and total number of sectors. > It also has the "Media Descriptor Byte", but I wouldn't rely too much > on that.) No, the whole disk is 1024*8. The first sector starts off like this: 000000 EB 1C 90 4E 45 43 20 32 2E 30 30 00 04 01 01 00 000010 02 C0 00 D0 04 FE 02 00 08 00 02 00 00 00 33 C0 I remembered that I wrote a NEC PC98 disk format driver for MS-DOS. It's probably in SIMTEL20; it's called "NECSYS", It will not only read and write PC98-format floppies, but will also format them and deposit a PC98 boot in the first sector. As I recall, NT/2K/XP will read PC98 floppies if they're in an Imation LS120 Superdrive or in a conforming USB floppy drive. I don't know about legacy floppy controllers. It might also work in a Caleb HD144 drive; I haven't checked that out. --Chuck From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Apr 18 00:24:10 2017 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 22:24:10 -0700 Subject: C, STL, primitive languages that live on and on ... Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84424399-E85D-404C-9481-F5CDBA8F7087@eschatologist.net> On Apr 17, 2017, at 1:33 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/17/2017 01:23 PM, Guy Dawson via cctalk wrote: >> I think timing had a lot to do with C's success. >> >> It's a decent language and at the time powerful and flexible compared >> to other languages. Universities picked up UNIX and C and taught a >> lot of students. The went forth taking their skills with them. > > C is pretty much mandatory if you wanted to use Unix. And Unix was one > of the very few "portable" operating systems. So, initially, you saw C > only in Unix shops. The original K&R C is also sufficiently simple and sufficiently sloppy that one can hack together a compiler that works well enough in a very short amount of time and that can run on or at least target a relatively small system, even an early-1980s micro. And if you need to produce better code, you just need to change what you wrote, because there?s such a close correspondence between C code and generated assembly. So if you?re bringing up a platform and have some access to Unix or Unix-like tools, what do you do, invent your own infrastructure? Or just sit down for a week with lex & yacc and knock out a C compiler? (Maybe even piggybacking on your installation?s existing cpp?) Heck, some environments never even became self-hosting: I hear turning a new build of the Amiga OS still required some build steps to be performed on a Sun 3, and others to be performed with different compilers, assemblers, etc. No unified toolchain there! People also still get upset that modern compilers reject things like obvious NULL dereferences as undefined behavior. ?It should just dereference 0, who knows, that might be fine!? The ?as-if? rule wasn?t nearly as much of a thing in the 1970s and early 1980s as it is in modern compilers. -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Apr 17 12:40:33 2017 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 10:40:33 -0700 Subject: Chip in first Apple AirPort WiFi In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d2ab0f$1d388c30$57a9a490$@computer.org> Message-ID: <3465CA99-0F88-4677-8799-8CBF4F6D4324@eschatologist.net> On Apr 12, 2017, at 8:34 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > I still have a pre-wifi 13" long ISA WaveLan card that is in the 915mhz ISM band sitting on a shelf. Weird Stuff had one too when last I was there. -- Chris From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Apr 18 03:17:43 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 10:17:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Remex Tape Reader - Pre-power up advice? In-Reply-To: <0512beca-39c0-297a-0835-62d4b879083e@btinternet.com> References: <0512beca-39c0-297a-0835-62d4b879083e@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2017, Rod Smallwood wrote: > There are what appear to be 1976 date codes on some caps. > > If its that old then replace all and any electrolytic capacitors plus any > paper based caps. > > If they aint bad now they soon will be. *shaking head* Sorry, this is just a plain dumb answer. If they are good now, they probably will be good in 10 years, too. We never change any caps just because of their age. I suggest: check for electrical safety, then plug it in and try it; after all, it's "just" a tape reader with a simple PSU, not a 50s era mainframe. It will just work, I guess. If there should be a problem with those "big caps", you'll see it. But it's much faster and easier to test them beforehand (i.e. short or no short) than to foolishly replace everything. Christian From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 18 09:42:58 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 07:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kennedy 9000 Tape Drives, Terminals and Packs In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A87B@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A87B@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2017, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > ATHANA was a magnetic media manufacturer. They made floppy disks and > cartridge hard disk drives that were compatible with many vendors' hard > disk system. IS. http://www.athana.com/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From pete.dodd24 at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 09:52:31 2017 From: pete.dodd24 at gmail.com (Pete Dodd) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 15:52:31 +0100 Subject: Where/who to donate Sun Ultra 10 in UK? Message-ID: Dear All, I'm looking for ideas for passing on an old Sun Ultra 10, which I adopted when my old work was going to bin it. I installed Debian, but have the original OS media. Unfortunately, 3 moves and 2 kids later my time to tinker is non-existent, and my partner has made clear this needs to go before another imminent house move. I notice from my last attempt to boot that it now has the NVRAM battery problem, which a quick search tells me may be fixable. Ideally, I would like to hand it over to someone with more time/motivation (for free) rather than sending to the tip, but I'm stuck for ideas. I did get in touch with wildfire systems, who said it isn't economically viable for them even at zero cost. The Ebay market for these things seems more US-centric and registering for an account and dealing with postage is more effort than I would like (I live in Sheffield, UK). Any ideas gratefully received! Thanks, Pete From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 09:56:05 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 07:56:05 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: <8a0ea9bf-5f9c-17fa-d631-b28dfc0209de@sydex.com> References: <91f3a7af-39a7-e34e-1923-70a600757756@sydex.com> <80e77f1e-45e5-d919-d763-094d8196056b@sydex.com> <8a0ea9bf-5f9c-17fa-d631-b28dfc0209de@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 10:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > > As I recall, NT/2K/XP will read PC98 floppies if they're in an Imation > LS120 Superdrive or in a conforming USB floppy drive. I don't know > about legacy floppy controllers. It might also work in a Caleb HD144 > drive; I haven't checked that out. Windows 2000 should be able to read and also low level format the 1024*8*2*77 format on 3.5-inch LS120 and USB floppy drives which support it. Support would be dependent on the firmware in the drive. I don't know about any earlier version of Windows NT as that was before USB support was added and I never looked at that. Support should have also been carried forward in newer versions of Windows, but I would not be surprised if it got broken intentionally or unintentionally somewhere along the way. There is some code in the Windows sfloppy.sys driver for ATAPI and USB attached floppy drives which does have hard coded tables of known geometry formats. Anything outside of those known geometries it would not be able to format. The sfloppy.sys driver is not involved with legacy FDC attached floppy drives. Source code for some version of the Windows sfloppy.sys driver is available online: https://github.com/Microsoft/Windows-driver-samples/blob/master/storage/sfloppy/src/floppy.c From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 10:13:34 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 16:13:34 +0100 Subject: Where/who to donate Sun Ultra 10 in UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000a01d2b856$59670e30$0c352a90$@outlook.com> Pete I will be happy to take it. Both my Suns have issues. Dave Manchester. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Dodd > via cctalk > Sent: 18 April 2017 15:53 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Where/who to donate Sun Ultra 10 in UK? > > Dear All, > > I'm looking for ideas for passing on an old Sun Ultra 10, which I adopted when > my old work was going to bin it. I installed Debian, but have the original OS > media. Unfortunately, 3 moves and 2 kids later my time to tinker is non- > existent, and my partner has made clear this needs to go before another > imminent house move. I notice from my last attempt to boot that it now has > the NVRAM battery problem, which a quick search tells me may be fixable. > Ideally, I would like to hand it over to someone with more time/motivation > (for free) rather than sending to the tip, but I'm stuck for ideas. I did get in > touch with wildfire systems, who said it isn't economically viable for them > even at zero cost. The Ebay market for these things seems more US-centric > and registering for an account and dealing with postage is more effort than I > would like (I live in Sheffield, UK). > > Any ideas gratefully received! > > Thanks, > Pete From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Apr 18 18:01:29 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:01:29 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory In-Reply-To: <91260B71-2F3E-4472-A90A-B14A4B5878AF@swri.edu> References: <91260B71-2F3E-4472-A90A-B14A4B5878AF@swri.edu> Message-ID: Found this file on an old Rainbow floppy. It has more detailed data. http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/RBMEMRY.TXT Sorry I didn't convert it to HTML... Warner On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 7:49 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > On Apr 13, 2017, at 3:20 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 12:00 PM, shadoooo via cctech >> wrote: >>> Hello, >>> I'm in the pretty same condition, I have a Rainbow 100B without memory >>> expansion. >>> Not sure however, about the correct board number, which would fit the 100B. >>> What should I search for? >> >> The DEC part numbers for these are PC1XX-AY (128k) and PC1XX-AZ >> (256k). I'm not sure what the board numbers are, and some auctions >> list those instead. >> >> They are the same board. There's 4 switches on the board. One for each >> of the 3 banks to select between 64kbit chips and 256kbit chips. You >> want 4164 or 41256 for the board. It's super easy to upgrade (I bought >> a AY back in the day and then 18 months later I bought 27 41256 chips >> and swapped them out in about 10-15 minutes. >> >> I'm not sure what the 100A needs. I have no experience with the 100A hardware. >> >> Warner > > I?m pretty sure the PC100A takes the same board. I believe I have a 100A set up like that, but I?ll have to check when I get back (from vacation) in a week or so (unless you get a definitive answer before that). Meantime if you spot one of those boards, obviously it would be good to grab it; sounds like there are 100B users on-list who would be happy to give it a home if I?m wrong about it working in the 100A. > > Meantime, from my Rainbow Technical Manual copyright 1984 scan (ask, I have a fair number of these documents) which says it refers to model PC100A: > > Rainbow Memory Extension Option Installation Guide: EK-PCMKE-IN > > ?Two versions of the memory extension option are available: a 64 K byte option (part number PC1XX-AA) and a 192K byte option (part number PC1XX-AB). The memory option is installed in the J6 connector ? > ? Both versions of the memory extension option use the same printed circuit board etch and the same type of 6kK x 1 bit memory chips. ? the 192K byte version contains twenty-seven 64K x 1 bit chips arranged as three 64K byte memory stacks. ... > > > From my Rainbow Owner?s manual 1st ed. Sept 1983, Appx. C, Table C-1 > ? > 64K byte memory board option: PC1XX-AC > 256K byte memory board option: PC1XX-AD > 64K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AY > 256K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AZ > ? > > Hope this helps. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 19 03:06:11 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:06:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: bitsavers rsync server down Message-ID: Hi, for those who wonder why our mirror at bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de is outdated: The reason is that the main rsync server is down/unavailable since March, 11. I've already contacted Al several days ago but haven't got any response yet. Christian From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Apr 19 10:11:12 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 17:11:12 +0200 Subject: Intel 64 kbyte qbus memory board? Message-ID: Does anyone know how to configure the Intel IN-1611 64 k qbus memory board? I seem to be unable to find documentation online. https://imgur.com/a/KBIoJ There a switch block an then also a number of jumper wires. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 19 10:19:09 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:19:09 -0500 Subject: bitsavers rsync server down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007e01d2b920$4b81de60$e2859b20$@classiccmp.org> That's my fault.... I'm still mopping up pieces from our datacenter move. I'll try to get it resolved today. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 3:06 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: bitsavers rsync server down Hi, for those who wonder why our mirror at bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de is outdated: The reason is that the main rsync server is down/unavailable since March, 11. I've already contacted Al several days ago but haven't got any response yet. Christian From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 19 10:21:38 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:21:38 -0500 Subject: bitsavers rsync server down In-Reply-To: <007e01d2b920$4b81de60$e2859b20$@classiccmp.org> References: <007e01d2b920$4b81de60$e2859b20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <007f01d2b920$a4102820$ec307860$@classiccmp.org> Did you perhaps change your IP address? Bitsavers rsync access is only allowed per specific IP addresses... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 10:19 AM To: 'Christian Corti' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: bitsavers rsync server down That's my fault.... I'm still mopping up pieces from our datacenter move. I'll try to get it resolved today. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 3:06 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: bitsavers rsync server down Hi, for those who wonder why our mirror at bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de is outdated: The reason is that the main rsync server is down/unavailable since March, 11. I've already contacted Al several days ago but haven't got any response yet. Christian From jon at jonworld.com Wed Apr 19 10:48:43 2017 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 16:48:43 +0100 Subject: Selling SGI Fuel Message-ID: I should post to Nekochan but I'm going here 1st. 600Mhz R14K SGI Fuel, 1G of RAM. 16G HDD. I threw in a soundcard that *should* work with IRIX but I'm not 100% sure. IRIX 6.5.30 seems to be loaded. I tried to build/load some of the Nekoware stuff at one point but ran out of time. Size and weight makes shipping prohibitive (unless you're willing to pay.) I'm located in the UK now in OX10 (south of Oxford and north of Reading.) -- -Jon +44 7465 605833 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 19 14:13:43 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 13:13:43 -0600 Subject: bitsavers rsync server down In-Reply-To: <007e01d2b920$4b81de60$e2859b20$@classiccmp.org> References: <007e01d2b920$4b81de60$e2859b20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1c75c1ed-63e9-e193-a4c9-ba91a1871bae@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/19/2017 9:19 AM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > That's my fault.... I'm still mopping up pieces from our datacenter move. > > I'll try to get it resolved today. Just how big is the server? As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the common stuff. Ben. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Apr 19 17:25:14 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:25:14 -0400 Subject: Research info needed.In early days-(60's) develop Blind/ RTTY asn Comp. Output Message-ID: <25aa6.485a1d59.46293dc9@aol.com> Research info needed.In early days-(60's) there was an effort to develop Blind/Deaf Blind Amateur Radio RTTY and computer output utilizing assistive technology with braille output. There were also efforts for computer output devices also. Please respond OFFLIST so we do not clog the reflector. We are seeking more information,materials, and stories (This is a history project for SMECC Communications and Computation Museum) Note I have checked google and other things ALREADY! - I HAVE NOT checked some of the online but restricted access database of publications that may bot be indexed in google so if something looks really great drop it to us. We are primarily looking for material and stories from the 60's and 70s - But before ok! (If there was any?) and after... yes if during the early development phases We have the following questions: - Aside from Ray Morrison, who else was working on this? - Anyone here work with Ray on this or have photos of gear and paperwork? - Although we have some of Ray Morrison's articles, we are looking for other letters, documents hardware, memories of use etc. - ` Are there any Blind / Deaf Blind RTTY or computer users here today that participated in this effort? - Are there any Blind/Deaf Blind CURRENT participants Amateur Radio RTTY or other digital modes with assistive technology producing braille output?? - Anyone use Lee Brody's Deaf Blind Communication terminal hand have a recounting of it or still have an example of the hardware? - Looking for Computer output devices and information, photos, stories etc, by any developer or user from the 60's and 70s primarily but later material will go into the archives on this subject as well. Nowadays there are plenty of things, but way back then... not so much! - Feel free to send me anything you think I should know related to the above topics that I may not have hinted on, but you think I need. Thanks in Advance - Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) E-mail direct at couryhouse at aol.com also please cc info at smecc.org Snail mail to: COURYHOUSE/SMECC Attn. Ed Sharpe - Archivist 5802 W. Palmaire Ave Glendale AZ 85301 USA From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Apr 19 11:26:20 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 09:26:20 -0700 Subject: HP 9000/700i 745 Which keyboard ? Message-ID: I've read the 745 can use two keyboards. And looking for recommendations One it the same keyboard that goes with the 9000/300, the 46021A/B/C and the other is the "PC-101" C1429A/B (and I think C) Anyone with a 745 ? -pete From hachti at hachti.de Thu Apr 20 12:37:43 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 19:37:43 +0200 Subject: How to refurbish plotter pens? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <763471ae-f2c3-c715-5759-efac76d5522d@hachti.de> Hi, I read that discussion. > Jon you were very very lucky to get that wooden box and its contents > !, There were basic kits and I don't know the original word, but > 'super kits'. A super kit sold on eBay not too long ago. I have 90% of > the basic kit. BTW my 565 is also IBM branded. It came off a IBM 1130. > > I've never tried using the Fisher pens, but they do show up from time > to time on the usual auction sites. And if someone does discover they > are the same or can be easily adapted you can sometimes find them in > independent owned stationary stores, the type of Ma+Pop store where > nothing gets thrown out, just moved to the basement. > I don't know tooo much about the different kits. I have a "small" kit containing colored Fisher pressurized cartridges (labelled CalComp) which seem to work forever. In your picture you have a normal ballpen. I tried to emulate that by cutting down one. It's a mess and not very funny. I know the following configs: Outer shell (always same), narrow inlay, narrow top cap --> for the pen you pictured, Outer shell, wide inlay, wide top cap --> For the Fisher pen Outer shell, some other inlay, ink top cap, some plastic ink pen stuff --> The ink pen config I should have all those. Don't know if more existed. Not yet tried the ink variant. I usually use the Fisher things with my 565/563 plotters (both plural). > I have the 565 on the list of things to build a more modern interface > for. And a good example is a Onion.io Omega2+, there should be more > then enough room to have a simple HPGL emulator. I did it already (more or less): 1. Made an interface for my Honeywell H316 using WireWrap and forgetting about the circuit (no schematics). I wrote a FORTRAN IV linkable library that can even draw Hershey fonts on the H316. 2. Used pdp8 Omnibus original interface and wrote a stripped HPGL interpreter. Now the pdp8 can "play" PC prepared HPGL files to the CalComp plotter Main problem around CalComp plotters is the paper. It's rare as hell. Anything else can be found easier. The plotters are not considered valuable (yet?). For the 565, you can simply cut sheets and wrap them around the drum. My kit also contains some scotch tape for that (original and mentioned as a use case for the plotter in the manual). For the 563, the form factor of the drum is not ideal - if you want to use the whole drum. Kind regards Philipp From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Apr 20 12:49:20 2017 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 17:49:20 +0000 Subject: Bitsavers size Message-ID: Ben asks: > Just how big is the server? > As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the common stuff. The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes. So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's. I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner Ring Cycle on convenient 45 RPM records. Tim N3QE From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 12:55:09 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:55:09 +0100 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 6:49 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > Ben asks: >> Just how big is the server? >> As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the common stuff. > > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes. > > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's. That is not totally ridiculous.... Now, if I want bitsavers on paper tape.... > > I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner Ring > Cycle on convenient 45 RPM records. Two things are now going through my mind... Flanders and Swann : "I've an opera here you shan't escape On miles and miles of recording tape" (from 'A song of reproduction') And Blackadder "The german reputation for cruelty is well founded Their operas last several days" -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 20 13:04:30 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:04:30 -0600 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c98f37b-4c43-96a8-b699-a241b7aa4347@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/20/2017 11:49 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > Ben asks: >> Just how big is the server? >> As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the common stuff. > > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes. > > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's. > > I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner Ring Cycle on convenient 45 RPM records. > > Tim N3QE You mean I can get both! :) Ben. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 20 13:15:01 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 13:15:01 -0500 Subject: bitsavers rsync server down In-Reply-To: <1c75c1ed-63e9-e193-a4c9-ba91a1871bae@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <007e01d2b920$4b81de60$e2859b20$@classiccmp.org> <1c75c1ed-63e9-e193-a4c9-ba91a1871bae@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004d01d2ba02$06fc61b0$14f52510$@classiccmp.org> Ben wrote... ---- Just how big is the server? ---- Bitsavers that is publicly visible is around 275gb but there's some other bitsavers working areas. But the classiccmp server... has significantly more than that, due to all the classiccmp related websites and archives/repositories that are hosted there. J From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 20 13:14:58 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 14:14:58 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 20, 2017, at 1:49 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > > Ben asks: >> Just how big is the server? >> As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the common stuff. > > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes. > > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's. Or 6 dual-layer DB disks... paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 20 13:24:44 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:24:44 -0600 Subject: bitsavers rsync server down In-Reply-To: <004d01d2ba02$06fc61b0$14f52510$@classiccmp.org> References: <007e01d2b920$4b81de60$e2859b20$@classiccmp.org> <1c75c1ed-63e9-e193-a4c9-ba91a1871bae@jetnet.ab.ca> <004d01d2ba02$06fc61b0$14f52510$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <132852a2-3413-6096-35bc-6b8b0316f5ac@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/20/2017 12:15 PM, Jay West wrote: > Ben wrote... > ---- > Just how big is the server? > ---- > Bitsavers that is publicly visible is around 275gb but there's some other > bitsavers working areas. > > But the classiccmp server... has significantly more than that, due to all > the classiccmp related websites and archives/repositories that are hosted > there. > > J How does one back up a system like that? (That could be the shortage of of oiled paper tape). Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 20 13:26:17 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:26:17 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/20/2017 10:49 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner > Ring Cycle on convenient 45 RPM records. Not to throw a wet blanket on Prof. Schickele's gag, but there *were* (and still are--Standard Vinyl will cut them for you) 12" 45 RPM LPs. As a matter of fact, you can occasionally find them offered on eBay. Somewhere around 15 minutes play per side. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 20 13:55:28 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: bitsavers rsync server down In-Reply-To: <004d01d2ba02$06fc61b0$14f52510$@classiccmp.org> References: <007e01d2b920$4b81de60$e2859b20$@classiccmp.org> <1c75c1ed-63e9-e193-a4c9-ba91a1871bae@jetnet.ab.ca> <004d01d2ba02$06fc61b0$14f52510$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > But the classiccmp server... has significantly more than that, due to all > the classiccmp related websites and archives/repositories that are hosted > there. > One of these days you should post a list. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 20 14:27:28 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 20:27:28 +0100 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004f01d2ba0c$2611f290$7235d7b0$@ntlworld.com> > > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes. > > > > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's. > > That is not totally ridiculous.... > > Now, if I want bitsavers on paper tape.... > > > My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately 4 million miles of paper tape. Regards Rob From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 20 14:43:01 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 14:43:01 -0500 Subject: bitsavers rsync server down In-Reply-To: References: <007e01d2b920$4b81de60$e2859b20$@classiccmp.org> <1c75c1ed-63e9-e193-a4c9-ba91a1871bae@jetnet.ab.ca> <004d01d2ba02$06fc61b0$14f52510$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006d01d2ba0e$5260a6a0$f721f3e0$@classiccmp.org> Gene wrote.... ----- One of these days you should post a list. :) ----- Ha! I Have, several times. I'm still wrapping up the datacenter migration. At this point, its down to loose ends and freebie/myhobbystuff :) The classiccmp server will be reloaded, a few much needed disks added... and there's been a host (pun intended) of classic computing websites asking to be hosted here and I've been putting them off till the above is completed. Still working on those roundtuits, but it'll happen. J From RichA at livingcomputers.org Thu Apr 20 13:02:06 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:02:06 +0000 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Shoppa, Tim Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 10:49 AM > Ben asks: >> Just how big is the server? >> As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the >> common stuff. > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes. > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's. > I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner Ring > Cycle on convenient 45 RPM records. I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk. We're then down to 6 or 11 platters. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Apr 20 16:09:01 2017 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 21:09:01 +0000 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? Message-ID: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> A FAQ in my old emails show the founding of the Classiccmp mailing list as being 20 years and 1 month ago. March 13 1997 was when Bill Whitson first set up the classiccmp list at the University of Washington. Tim N3QE Sent from my VAX-11/780 From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 16:12:12 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 14:12:12 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 20, 2017 1:59 PM, "Rich Alderson via cctalk" wrote: I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk. We're then down to 6 or 11 platters. What's the thoughput of a station wagon full of Blue-Ray discs hurtling down the highway? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 20 16:31:56 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 14:31:56 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/20/2017 02:12 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > What's the thoughput of a station wagon full of Blue-Ray discs > hurtling down the highway? Depends on the destination. For Tristan da Cunha, I'd say it was zero. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 20 16:35:57 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 14:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes. >> So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's. > I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk. We're then > down to 6 or 11 platters. It would only be a bit more than a million 8" SSSD floppies. Cheapest might be to send it out on a 1/2TB hard disk. If you worry about survivability of transport abuse, then it could easily be resent if it arrives destroyed, OR use a few 2.5" SSDs, although those should be copied to spinning rust on receipt, as their longevity is uncertain. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 20 17:08:39 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 15:08:39 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2c9ee931-94b4-da44-d811-84e9b25685bd@sydex.com> On 04/20/2017 02:35 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > It would only be a bit more than a million 8" SSSD floppies. Best to be period-correct. First 72 columns of an 80-colum punched card. Wonder if you could find a card punch that could do the deed before it broke down. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 20 20:29:50 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:29:50 -0700 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> Message-ID: <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> > On Apr 20, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > > A FAQ in my old emails show the founding of the Classiccmp mailing list as being 20 years and 1 month ago. March 13 1997 was when Bill Whitson first set up the classiccmp list at the University of Washington. > > Tim N3QE > > > Sent from my VAX-11/780 That means I?ve been on this list for just short of 20 years. I think its safe to say that a list dedicated to computer history, forgot its own history. Zane From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 21:12:47 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 21:12:47 -0500 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> Message-ID: wow what? On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Apr 20, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > A FAQ in my old emails show the founding of the Classiccmp mailing list > as being 20 years and 1 month ago. March 13 1997 was when Bill Whitson > first set up the classiccmp list at the University of Washington. > > > > Tim N3QE > > > > > > Sent from my VAX-11/780 > > > That means I?ve been on this list for just short of 20 years. I think its > safe to say that a list dedicated to computer history, forgot its own > history. > > > Zane > > > > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 22:48:09 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 04:48:09 +0100 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: <004f01d2ba0c$2611f290$7235d7b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <004f01d2ba0c$2611f290$7235d7b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:27 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > >> > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes. >> > >> > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's. >> >> That is not totally ridiculous.... >> >> Now, if I want bitsavers on paper tape.... >> >> > > > My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately > 4 million miles of paper tape. I think you're out by a factor of 10.... 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as there are 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just over 400,000 miles. My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes So 10 for a megabyte 10000 for a gigabyte 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an approximation.... -tony From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 23:33:01 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 23:33:01 -0500 Subject: bitsavers rsync server down Message-ID: <9o67sakb57fnoqaoce23cifn.1492749177897@email.android.com> Tape backup lto would do it easily, at this point probably incremental backups to an external drive would be a cheap alternative too. On 4/20/2017 12:15 PM, Jay West wrote: > Ben wrote... > ---- > Just how big is the server? > ---- > Bitsavers that is publicly visible is around 275gb? How does one back up a system like that? (That could be the shortage of of oiled paper tape). Ben. From infected at analprolap.se Thu Apr 20 16:13:49 2017 From: infected at analprolap.se (Yvan Janssens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 21:13:49 +0000 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At the risk of sounding like a nitpicker, I think that mainly depends on if it's a motorway, a highway or the Autobahn. /y On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 at 22:12, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Apr 20, 2017 1:59 PM, "Rich Alderson via cctalk" > > wrote: > > > I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk. We're then > down to 6 or 11 platters. > > > What's the thoughput of a station wagon full of Blue-Ray discs hurtling > down the highway? > From cube1 at charter.net Thu Apr 20 21:04:07 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 21:04:07 -0500 Subject: Remex Tape Reader - Pre-power up advice? In-Reply-To: References: <0512beca-39c0-297a-0835-62d4b879083e@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 4/18/2017 3:17 AM, Christian Corti via cctech wrote: > On Mon, 17 Apr 2017, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> There are what appear to be 1976 date codes on some caps. >> >> If its that old then replace all and any electrolytic capacitors plus >> any paper based caps. >> >> If they aint bad now they soon will be. > > *shaking head* > > Sorry, this is just a plain dumb answer. If they are good now, they > probably will be good in 10 years, too. We never change any caps just > because of their age. > > I suggest: check for electrical safety, then plug it in and try it; > after all, it's "just" a tape reader with a simple PSU, not a 50s era > mainframe. > It will just work, I guess. If there should be a problem with those "big > caps", you'll see it. But it's much faster and easier to test them > beforehand (i.e. short or no short) than to foolishly replace everything. > > Christian > While I also do not typically replace capacitors outright, I don't think that the answer is "dumb". It just comes from a different perspective - typically from those who for one reason or another wish to maximize reliability and don't care to deal with failures down the road, and for whom preserving original components is not a priority. But I also I don't think that just plugging the unit in and turning it on (aka a "smoke test") right off the bat is necessarily prudent. A shorted input capacitor can easily take rectifiers with it (a capacitor that needed reforming did that to a rectifier bridge on my PDP-12 at one point), and a shorted output capacitor can take regulator components with it. Also, a shorted capacitor can generate enough steam to explode, if it doesn't have a pressure relief plug, and that can be messy, regardless. So what I typically do is locate the larger capacitors in the supply, and re-form them (I think so far I have only run into a couple that needed replacement due to an unacceptably high ESR). This spots shorted units along the way, and one only need disconnect on lead to the capacitor to accomplish the work. Also, it allows one to bring the capacitor up to its rated voltage, rather than just the in-circuit voltage. JRJ From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 00:01:33 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 02:01:33 -0300 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there interesting of having a "comunity backup" of bitsavers in Brazil? Here in Sao Paulo we have a network maintained by friends. When we meet, we all r-sync our secondary backups and when we get home, r-sync the primary backups. We have many data repositories in safe harbour, and we would be interested in mirroring bitsavers too. If it is ok, we can arrange ONE rsync via internet (or HD thru mail) and share in Brazil. Thanks Alexandre 2017-04-20 18:13 GMT-03:00 Yvan Janssens via cctalk : > At the risk of sounding like a nitpicker, I think that mainly depends on if > it's a motorway, a highway or the Autobahn. > > /y > On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 at 22:12, Glen Slick via cctalk > > wrote: > > > On Apr 20, 2017 1:59 PM, "Rich Alderson via cctalk" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk. We're > then > > down to 6 or 11 platters. > > > > > > What's the thoughput of a station wagon full of Blue-Ray discs hurtling > > down the highway? > > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 00:26:59 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 01:26:59 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers size References: <004f01d2ba0c$2611f290$7235d7b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <6D9905EE1BFA48E9980BF4166A3754E4@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell via cctalk" To: Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "Shoppa, Tim" Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 11:48 PM Subject: Re: Bitsavers size > On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:27 PM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: >> >> >>> > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes. >>> > >>> > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's. >>> >>> That is not totally ridiculous.... >>> >>> Now, if I want bitsavers on paper tape.... >>> >>> > >> >> My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately >> 4 million miles of paper tape. > > I think you're out by a factor of 10.... 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as > there are 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I > get just over 400,000 miles. > > My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes > So 10 for a megabyte > 10000 for a gigabyte > 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an > approximation.... > > -tony ---- I've got a couple of reels that I can contribute if you don't have quite enough... ;-) From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 21 00:26:29 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:26:29 +0200 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> Message-ID: <20170421052629.GG18105@Update.UU.SE> Congratulations to us all, even if a little late. It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist? /P On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 09:09:01PM +0000, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > A FAQ in my old emails show the founding of the Classiccmp mailing list as being 20 years and 1 month ago. March 13 1997 was when Bill Whitson first set up the classiccmp list at the University of Washington. > > Tim N3QE > > > Sent from my VAX-11/780 From tingox at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 06:27:09 2017 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:27:09 +0200 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <20170421052629.GG18105@Update.UU.SE> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <20170421052629.GG18105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 7:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > Congratulations to us all, even if a little late. > > It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist? Still running, or still getting on-topic posts to it? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 21 06:40:39 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:40:39 +0200 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <20170421052629.GG18105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20170421114039.GK18105@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 01:27:09PM +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 7:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk > wrote: > > Congratulations to us all, even if a little late. > > > > It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist? > > Still running, or still getting on-topic posts to it? "Active" I suppose there are more than one consumed by spam. /P From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Apr 21 07:09:20 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:09:20 +0000 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <20170421052629.GG18105@Update.UU.SE>, Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 7:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 7:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > Congratulations to us all, even if a little late. > > It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist? Still running, or still getting on-topic posts to it? ____________________________________ Wha about the VMS Mailing List? bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 21 07:45:52 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 08:45:52 -0400 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <20170421052629.GG18105@Update.UU.SE> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <20170421052629.GG18105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <22291C2B-F396-4170-96D5-A44366E6968F@comcast.net> > On Apr 21, 2017, at 1:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > > Congratulations to us all, even if a little late. > > It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist? Don't know about *the* oldest, but one that's quite old and still very active is the TZ mailing list (about timezone rules and their ongoing changes). This is the list that collects and distributes the data that keeps clocks worldwide showing the correct local time, at least when politicians give more than a few days' notice of a change. The first message on that list is from Arthur Olson, Mon, 24 Nov 86 19:58:12 EST. Though retired now he still occasionally contributes. paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 21 09:14:06 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:14:06 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007501d2baa9$898ca160$9ca5e420$@classiccmp.org> Alexandre wrote... ------ Is there interesting of having a "comunity backup" of bitsavers in Brazil? ------ I just host the main repository and rsyncd to the mirrors. The site is 100% owned and maintained by Al Kossow. So.... you'd need to ask that question of Al as he's the one that decides how many mirrors and where and who. As I recall - two primary rules are that any mirrors that offer the content publicly, must not make any presentation changes. They must mirror the site exactly as the original, no changes to the files or presentation. In addition, the files all remain as bitsavers files (you cant get a mirror, sync the contents, and then say it's all yours and represent it as such, nor add your own files to it). Otherwise - no more mirror for you ;) At least, that's my recollection. Of course, AEK is in charge of all that, I just implement what he wishes :) Questions or comments about this should all be directed to Al via email... his baby. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 21 09:22:51 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:22:51 -0500 Subject: bitsavers rsync server down In-Reply-To: <9o67sakb57fnoqaoce23cifn.1492749177897@email.android.com> References: <9o67sakb57fnoqaoce23cifn.1492749177897@email.android.com> Message-ID: <007c01d2baaa$c2b03460$48109d20$@classiccmp.org> Sam wrote? How does one back up a system like that? ----- Well, it?s rsynced to X mirror sites around the globe (where X is I forgot, but I believe around 8 or 10 sites). So one site going dark isn?t going to make the content go away ? even if the dead site is the master site on classiccmp. The frequency of the rsync is up to each mirror ISTR, but many do rsync daily. Second, most of the classiccmp server is rsynced from the datacenter to a 12tb nas at my house about once a month just in case something bad happens. It?s not a perfect system, but should be adequate. I?ve been pondering a few modifications to the above lately what with all the shuffling going around anyways?. Best, J From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 21 09:34:52 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:34:52 -0500 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <008101d2baac$7061bb00$51253100$@classiccmp.org> Zane wrote... ----- I think it's safe to say that a list dedicated to computer history, forgot its own history. ----- I beg to disagree with the premise. Yes, there are quite a few people here that focus on the history and historical aspects of the hobby. But that doesn't mean the list is "dedicated to computer history". It's a significant component, but many are here just for the love of the old machines, the knowledge that is present, electronics, software design, etc. And yes, many are here just for the relationships and comradery that has developed over decades of the lists existence. But that being said... we should have had a party or something *grin*. J From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Apr 21 09:40:26 2017 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 10:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <008101d2baac$7061bb00$51253100$@classiccmp.org> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> <008101d2baac$7061bb00$51253100$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > And yes, many are here just for the relationships and comradery that has developed over decades of the lists existence. > > But that being said... we should have had a party or something *grin*. We could have the party at VCF MW in September. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 21 09:42:23 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 16:42:23 +0200 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <008101d2baac$7061bb00$51253100$@classiccmp.org> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> <008101d2baac$7061bb00$51253100$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20170421144223.GL18105@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 09:34:52AM -0500, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > But that being said... we should have had a party or something *grin*. > You could argue that years are index starting from zero. Thus the 20-year celebration is next year and we have ample time to prepare. (It's what we did when we missed an anniversery for the computer science programme). /P From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 21 09:46:36 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:46:36 -0500 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <20170421144223.GL18105@Update.UU.SE> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> <008101d2baac$7061bb00$51253100$@classiccmp.org> <20170421144223.GL18105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <008501d2baae$13901050$3ab030f0$@classiccmp.org> Pontus wrote... ----- You could argue that years are index starting from zero. Thus the 20-year celebration is next year and we have ample time to prepare. ----- That's a hilariously great idea for the rationalization and justification department *grin* J From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 21 09:51:21 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 10:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? Message-ID: <20170421145121.EBB4B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > On Apr 21, 2017, at 1:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist? I don't have access to my _old_ email (i.e. from the 80's) to confirm this, and I don't think they still have copies of the very oldest mail, but the IETF list has got to be pretty old (first meeting was early '86, but they may not have had a mailing list for a while, yet). Risks started in the summer of '85, so that one's older. Noel From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Apr 21 09:54:37 2017 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 14:54:37 +0000 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <008501d2baae$13901050$3ab030f0$@classiccmp.org> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> <008101d2baac$7061bb00$51253100$@classiccmp.org> <20170421144223.GL18105@Update.UU.SE>, <008501d2baae$13901050$3ab030f0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5266E58B-0A9D-4174-B367-70B59D4FCB8C@wmata.com> I am living proof that a good Fortran Programmer can write spaghetti code in any language. Fortran by default starts all of its array indices at 1 so I would argue that we are now in year 21. A C programmer would disagree. Tim N3QE Sent from my VAX-11/780 > On Apr 21, 2017, at 10:47 AM, Jay West wrote: > > Pontus wrote... > ----- > You could argue that years are index starting from zero. Thus the 20-year > celebration is next year and we have ample time to prepare. > ----- > That's a hilariously great idea for the rationalization and justification > department *grin* > > J > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 21 09:55:37 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:55:37 -0700 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <20170421052629.GG18105@Update.UU.SE> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <20170421052629.GG18105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > On Apr 20, 2017, at 10:26 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > > It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist? Part of the question I?d have, is do you mean on the Internet the whole time? I?m on one for photography that started out life on Fidonet, moved to the Internet, and while it still has the maillist, is now sadly, mainly a Facebook group. I know of a couple Role Playing Game lists that are definitely older than this list. The one started in the early 90?s, on the Internet, the other in the 80?s on GEnie. These are simply examples I?m aware of. It would also be interesting to know how many have evolved into either Facebook or Google groups. Zane From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 21 09:59:59 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 10:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Copy of UNIBUS Interface Manual available for trade Message-ID: <20170421145959.903AE18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, all, continuing the process of getting rid of duplicate DEC documentation: I have an extra copy of the the UNIBUS Interface Manual, Second Edition (DEC-11-HIAB-D); I'm interested in trading it for any interesting PDP-11 documentation or stuff you'd like to part with which I don't have. One DEC book I really crave, but _cannot_ find, is the "PDP-11 Systems Handbook" ("Featuring: MicroPDP-11/83 MicroPDP-11/73 MicroPDP-11/53 PDP-11/84"). If anyone has an extra copy of this they're willing to part with, please let me know, I have a lot of odds and ends I can trade (or plain $$$ if that works). Noel From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 11:18:03 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 17:18:03 +0100 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <20170421144223.GL18105@Update.UU.SE> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> <008101d2baac$7061bb00$51253100$@classiccmp.org> <20170421144223.GL18105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 09:34:52AM -0500, Jay West via cctalk wrote: >> >> But that being said... we should have had a party or something *grin*. >> > > You could argue that years are index starting from zero. Thus the > 20-year celebration is next year and we have ample time to prepare. > > (It's what we did when we missed an anniversery for the computer science > programme). At least in the UK it is tradition to celebrate a person's 21st birthday (coming of age and all that). So perhaps the same applies to mailing lists :-) Somewhere I have a 21st birthday card that a certain classic computer enthiast (now alas passed away) sent, not to me, but to my PDP11/45... -tony From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Apr 21 11:35:46 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 16:35:46 +0000 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <20170421145121.EBB4B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170421145121.EBB4B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 10:51 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? > On Apr 21, 2017, at 1:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist? I don't have access to my _old_ email (i.e. from the 80's) to confirm this, and I don't think they still have copies of the very oldest mail, but the IETF list has got to be pretty old (first meeting was early '86, but they may not have had a mailing list for a while, yet). Risks started in the summer of '85, so that one's older. Noel __________________________________ Surely there were Mailing Lists prior to the existence of the Internet, yes? Do any Lists that started on UUCP still exist today? bill From kula at tproa.net Fri Apr 21 11:36:51 2017 From: kula at tproa.net (Thomas Kula) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:36:51 -0400 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> <008101d2baac$7061bb00$51253100$@classiccmp.org> <20170421144223.GL18105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20170421163649.GB27055@gatekeeper.tproa.net> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 05:18:03PM +0100, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk > wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 09:34:52AM -0500, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> But that being said... we should have had a party or something *grin*. > >> > > > > You could argue that years are index starting from zero. Thus the > > 20-year celebration is next year and we have ample time to prepare. > > > > (It's what we did when we missed an anniversery for the computer science > > programme). > > At least in the UK it is tradition to celebrate a person's 21st birthday > (coming of age and all that). So perhaps the same applies to mailing > lists :-) > > Somewhere I have a 21st birthday card that a certain classic computer > enthiast (now alas passed away) sent, not to me, but to my PDP11/45... To be fair, while we may have missed the 020th and 20th anniversaries, we're well ahead of the 0x20th anniversary. So --- what base are we using? -- Thomas L. Kula | kula at tproa.net | http://kula.tproa.net/ From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 11:40:22 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 17:40:22 +0100 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <20170421163649.GB27055@gatekeeper.tproa.net> References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> <008101d2baac$7061bb00$51253100$@classiccmp.org> <20170421144223.GL18105@Update.UU.SE> <20170421163649.GB27055@gatekeeper.tproa.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 5:36 PM, Thomas Kula via cctalk wrote: > To be fair, while we may have missed the 020th and 20th anniversaries, > we're well ahead of the 0x20th anniversary. > > So --- what base are we using? Or what about celebrating 8192 days of the list, which I think is a little over 22 (base 10) years. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 21 12:24:53 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 18:24:53 +0100 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d2ba0c$2611f290$7235d7b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <009301d2bac4$3092a940$91b7fbc0$@ntlworld.com> > > My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately > > 4 million miles of paper tape. > > I think you're out by a factor of 10.... 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as there are > 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just over 400,000 > miles. > Agreed, I measured a piece of paper tape I have here and got a figure of 0.9 inches per 10 bytes, so clearly just a bit of finger trouble somewhere in my calculation. Still, almost enough for a round trip to the moon. Regards Rob > My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes So 10 for a > megabyte > 10000 for a gigabyte > 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an > approximation.... > From lovesw at verizon.net Fri Apr 21 11:53:51 2017 From: lovesw at verizon.net (Shawn Love) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:53:51 -0400 Subject: Decmate II Message-ID: Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Hi,I have a friend who has a Decmate II. ?Her family purchased it new for their business in the early 80s. ?Tested it with her last night and it is in perfect condition. ?Boots from the floppy and also from the hard drive. ?It is in a tower enclosure and has a working keyboard and terminal, all in perfect working and cosmetic condition. ?She has all of the manuals and software in their original boxes and they look brand new. ?She has a stack of brochures and promotional items several inches thick. ?She even has the original sales receipt. ?I have no way to know for sure but from what I can see, everything that came with this machine is there. ?She lives in pennsylvania. ?I'm planning to list it on eBay but wanted to reach out to the collector community first. ?Anyone interested can contact me at lovesw at verizon.net. Thanks,Shawn Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 12:33:57 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:33:57 -0500 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <97BE4DB3-CCE6-49FE-8CA7-5976A6A1D157@aracnet.com> <008101d2baac$7061bb00$51253100$@classiccmp.org> <20170421144223.GL18105@Update.UU.SE> <20170421163649.GB27055@gatekeeper.tproa.net> Message-ID: Oldest mailing lists prolly held by snail mail type groups. That evovled into the digital age On Apr 21, 2017 11:40 AM, "Tony Duell via cctalk" wrote: > On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 5:36 PM, Thomas Kula via cctalk > wrote: > > > To be fair, while we may have missed the 020th and 20th anniversaries, > > we're well ahead of the 0x20th anniversary. > > > > So --- what base are we using? > > Or what about celebrating 8192 days of the list, which I think > is a little over 22 (base 10) years. > > -tony > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 12:35:18 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:35:18 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: <009301d2bac4$3092a940$91b7fbc0$@ntlworld.com> References: <004f01d2ba0c$2611f290$7235d7b0$@ntlworld.com> <009301d2bac4$3092a940$91b7fbc0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Bit savers is only 267 gigs? On Apr 21, 2017 12:25 PM, "Rob Jarratt via cctalk" wrote: > > > > > My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately > > > 4 million miles of paper tape. > > > > I think you're out by a factor of 10.... 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as > there are > > 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just > over 400,000 > > miles. > > > > Agreed, I measured a piece of paper tape I have here and got a figure of > 0.9 inches per 10 bytes, so clearly just a bit of finger trouble somewhere > in my calculation. Still, almost enough for a round trip to the moon. > > Regards > > Rob > > > > My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes So > 10 for a > > megabyte > > 10000 for a gigabyte > > 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an > > approximation.... > > > > > > From jsw at ieee.org Fri Apr 21 12:42:05 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:42:05 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: <009301d2bac4$3092a940$91b7fbc0$@ntlworld.com> References: <004f01d2ba0c$2611f290$7235d7b0$@ntlworld.com> <009301d2bac4$3092a940$91b7fbc0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3E7C1694-FDA0-4194-913D-0C49F6509F00@ieee.org> > On Apr 21, 2017, at 12:24 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > >>> My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately >>> 4 million miles of paper tape. >> >> I think you're out by a factor of 10.... 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as there are >> 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just over 400,000 >> miles. >> > > Agreed, I measured a piece of paper tape I have here and got a figure of 0.9 inches per 10 bytes, so clearly just a bit of finger trouble somewhere in my calculation. Still, almost enough for a round trip to the moon. > > Regards > > Rob > > >> My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes So 10 for a >> megabyte >> 10000 for a gigabyte >> 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an >> approximation.... >> > > > ASCII correct? Not Murray, Western Union,Flexowriter or other ? Anyone care to estimate how large the pile of chads will be? Jerry jsw at ieee.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 21 12:51:31 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 11:51:31 -0600 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d2ba0c$2611f290$7235d7b0$@ntlworld.com> <009301d2bac4$3092a940$91b7fbc0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 4/21/2017 11:35 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > Bit savers is only 267 gigs? Now if you want to archive "PORN are US" that is bit bigger. :) Ben. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 21 12:54:27 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? Message-ID: <20170421175427.B532D18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Gunshannon > Surely there were Mailing Lists prior to the existence of the Internet, > yes? Absolutely. They started on the ARPANet, fairly early on. E.g. SF-Lovers (one of the first 'non-mission related' mailing lists) started in September, 1979, and MsgGroup (an 'official-busines-related' one) considerably earlier, in June 1975. Header-People started at about the same time, but alas, we have lost the first two volumes of the archives, so I don't know exactly when. I maintain archives of these lists on my page: http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/archives.html if anyone wants a look. The variety of header formats is kind of amusing. > Do any Lists that started on UUCP still exist today? Perhaps. Do you count newgroups? (Of course, UUCP considerably post-date the ARPANet.) Noel From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 13:00:39 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 19:00:39 +0100 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: <009301d2bac4$3092a940$91b7fbc0$@ntlworld.com> References: <004f01d2ba0c$2611f290$7235d7b0$@ntlworld.com> <009301d2bac4$3092a940$91b7fbc0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > >> > My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately >> > 4 million miles of paper tape. >> >> I think you're out by a factor of 10.... 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as there are >> 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just over 400,000 >> miles. >> > > Agreed, I measured a piece of paper tape I have here and got a figure of 0.9 inches > per 10 bytes, so clearly just a bit of finger trouble somewhere in my calculation. I think you've made a fencepost error here. There will, indeed be 0.9" between the centre line of one byte and that of the tenth byte after it. But you are forgetting to include the gap on one end of that block (if you see what I mean). The holes on paper tape (at least the normal 5 level and 8 level stuff, typesetter tape may well be different) fall on a 0.1" matrix. I once made an emergency splicing jig for paper tape using a bit of stripboard with some pins soldered in. So there are exactly 10 characters per inch on paper tape. > Still, almost enough for a round trip to the moon. True... -tony From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Apr 21 13:16:21 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 11:16:21 -0700 Subject: IMS and other interesting S100 cards (Ebay sale alert, pass if you don't want such) Message-ID: If this link works for you, this is to an auction someone has for a bunch of IMS and other S100 cards. http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBS-Slavenet-P-N-710525-128B-Rev-D-1984-S-100-CPU-Card-Board-115-/201869883143 I linked off something called IBS Slavenet, but it also has a number of IMS boards IMS-Z-80B-Master-Slave-Board-A1270-Rev-F-1984-S-100-CPU-Card-Board-66-/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/192142950358 I used to buy the IMS 16K static boards as they were golden back when I ran S100, and had one of their Z80 boards, but stuck with mostly Tarbell and 8080 for my time with S100 and never graduated to this sort of system. Might interest those still doing S-100 thanks Jim From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Fri Apr 21 13:39:03 2017 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 11:39:03 -0700 Subject: Copy of UNIBUS Interface Manual available for trade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58FA51C7.60707@flying-disk.com> jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: > One DEC book I really crave, but _cannot_ find, is the "PDP-11 Systems > Handbook" ("Featuring: MicroPDP-11/83 MicroPDP-11/73 MicroPDP-11/53 > PDP-11/84"). If anyone has an extra copy of this they're willing to part > with, please let me know, I have an extra copy I would be happy to send to you. Just send me your mailing address. Alan Frisbie From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 21 13:39:59 2017 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:39:59 -0500 Subject: A treasure trove in Dallas Message-ID: <020901d2bace$aea47b10$0bed7130$@com> If you live in the DFW area, and have a truck and a strong back, there are some VERY interesting items. A DEC cabinet taller than I am, with a front panel of switches. I asked him if the panel was rust or orange, but he said he thought it was dark, like brown. The cabinet was backwards, and there was too much stuff in the way to turn it around. 3 Sun cabinets full of stuff, and a SparcStation 20. Several (at least 4) IBM server cabinets. Not the blue 6 foot kind; these are abt waist high. A cabinet about waist high the said Computer Control (I think) with switches and LEDs. Too heavy to move into the light to take pics. A complete Data Products B300 line printer. If you are interested in these, send me an email, and I will give you the contact info. The warehouse is very dirty, and the aisles are very small. A large person will not fit. Cindy Croxton From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Fri Apr 21 14:04:11 2017 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:04:11 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58FA57AB.4010307@flying-disk.com> "Shoppa, Tim" wrote: > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes. And growing. I just sent Al a CD with 450 MB of scans of old obscure IBM manuals from the late 1960s and early 1970s. One example: 225-3360-1 2030 Processing Unit Field Engineering Theory of Operation (It describes all the internal operations of the S/360 Model 30.) So far I have sent him 15 CDs of manual and print set scans, many of which have not yet appeared online. This is probably because he lacks time and resources to do the necessary post processing of them. If there is any interest, I can post (or send) a list of the manuals. The next batch will be from SEL, GE, Tymshare, and a few other miscellaneous companies. After that, it will be all DEC. If anyone else is scanning DEC manuals, please contact me so we can coordinate our efforts and avoid duplication. Alan Frisbie From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 21 14:28:12 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 15:28:12 -0400 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <20170421175427.B532D18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170421175427.B532D18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57F01AAF-68A1-4ED9-8BA2-57CEE6EDA141@comcast.net> > On Apr 21, 2017, at 1:54 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Bill Gunshannon > >> Surely there were Mailing Lists prior to the existence of the Internet, >> yes? > > Absolutely. They started on the ARPANet, fairly early on. > > E.g. SF-Lovers (one of the first 'non-mission related' mailing lists) started > in September, 1979, and MsgGroup (an 'official-busines-related' one) > considerably earlier, in June 1975. Header-People started at about the same > time, but alas, we have lost the first two volumes of the archives, so I don't > know exactly when. Multi-user communication systems of a somewhat different architecture are even older: "Notes files" on the PLATO system. paul From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 21 14:44:44 2017 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 15:44:44 -0400 Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement Message-ID: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers, mainframes, and supercomputers. LSSM has been closed for renovations and expansion for the past several months; we've added nearly a thousand square feet of new exhibit space and many new exhibits. On May 6th, there will be a large block party (actually, several blocks) here in town, called "New Kensington Better Block", with street vendors and other standard block party fare. LSSM will be participating in that event with our post-renovation reopening; we will be open to the public all day with docents on duty. Many of our systems will be running and demonstrated throughout the day. In even bigger news, LSSM is pleased to announce the opening of a brand new wing, the Large Scale Integration Museum, or LSIM. As the name suggests, the LSIM wing is dedicated to computer systems based on Large Scale Integration CPUs, from the earliest four-bit 4004 processors through the desktop computer revolution of the 1970s and 1980s. Thanks to a partnership with Pennsylvania-based nonprofit organization Tristate Technology Museum Consortium, and a generous donation from the private collection of Corey Little and C/PMuseum, LSIM will add more than one hundred new exhibits in four thousand square feet of newly-renovated space located in the same building as the recently-expanded Large Scale Systems Museum. Everyone is welcome. LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New Kensington, PA 15068. For more information, directions, or hotel recommendations, contact the LSSM via email at info at lssmuseum.org or on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum"). You can also see some photos of our facilities on the Facebook page. Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think might be interested. Thanks, -Dave McGuire President/Curator, LSSM -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 21 14:47:48 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:47:48 -0700 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <57F01AAF-68A1-4ED9-8BA2-57CEE6EDA141@comcast.net> References: <20170421175427.B532D18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57F01AAF-68A1-4ED9-8BA2-57CEE6EDA141@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4cbbee77-4e95-41d2-0407-e926d4440981@sydex.com> On 04/21/2017 12:28 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Multi-user communication systems of a somewhat different architecture > are even older: "Notes files" on the PLATO system. AUTODIN and predecessors, such as ComLogNet extend into the 1950s. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 15:09:29 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 16:09:29 -0400 Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement In-Reply-To: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> References: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 3:44 PM, Dave McGuire via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public > museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers, > mainframes, and supercomputers. LSSM has been closed for renovations > and expansion for the past several months; we've added nearly a > thousand square feet of new exhibit space and many new exhibits. > > > > Everyone is welcome. LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New > Kensington, PA 15068. For more information, directions, or hotel > recommendations, contact the LSSM via email at info at lssmuseum.org or > on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum"). You can also > see some photos of our facilities on the Facebook page. > > Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think > might be interested. > > Wow can't wait to see the new digs. Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 15:19:01 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 16:19:01 -0400 Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement In-Reply-To: References: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Looking forward to new photos/video. I will try to get over there then. Bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Apr 21 15:19:01 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 20:19:01 +0000 Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement In-Reply-To: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> References: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Dave, I don't even remember whatall you got from me but did any of make it into the museum? Would be great if I could make a trip out there to see it but I never know what is coming next. Just as a matter of curiosity, The University of Scranton (my former employer and Alma Mater) has static displays along one corridor of the Loyola Science Center that change every semester or two. A number of the items on display are on loan from my collection. bill ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Dave McGuire via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 3:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers, mainframes, and supercomputers. LSSM has been closed for renovations and expansion for the past several months; we've added nearly a thousand square feet of new exhibit space and many new exhibits. On May 6th, there will be a large block party (actually, several blocks) here in town, called "New Kensington Better Block", with street vendors and other standard block party fare. LSSM will be participating in that event with our post-renovation reopening; we will be open to the public all day with docents on duty. Many of our systems will be running and demonstrated throughout the day. In even bigger news, LSSM is pleased to announce the opening of a brand new wing, the Large Scale Integration Museum, or LSIM. As the name suggests, the LSIM wing is dedicated to computer systems based on Large Scale Integration CPUs, from the earliest four-bit 4004 processors through the desktop computer revolution of the 1970s and 1980s. Thanks to a partnership with Pennsylvania-based nonprofit organization Tristate Technology Museum Consortium, and a generous donation from the private collection of Corey Little and C/PMuseum, LSIM will add more than one hundred new exhibits in four thousand square feet of newly-renovated space located in the same building as the recently-expanded Large Scale Systems Museum. Everyone is welcome. LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New Kensington, PA 15068. For more information, directions, or hotel recommendations, contact the LSSM via email at info at lssmuseum.org or on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum"). You can also see some photos of our facilities on the Facebook page. Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think might be interested. Thanks, -Dave McGuire President/Curator, LSSM -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Apr 21 15:22:55 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:22:55 -0700 Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement In-Reply-To: References: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Guess I'll have to add New Kensignton to my visit list the next time I hit the east coast -pete On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:09 PM, william degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 3:44 PM, Dave McGuire via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public > > museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers, > > mainframes, and supercomputers. LSSM has been closed for renovations > > and expansion for the past several months; we've added nearly a > > thousand square feet of new exhibit space and many new exhibits. > > > > > > > > Everyone is welcome. LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New > > Kensington, PA 15068. For more information, directions, or hotel > > recommendations, contact the LSSM via email at info at lssmuseum.org or > > on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum"). You can also > > see some photos of our facilities on the Facebook page. > > > > Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think > > might be interested. > > > > > Wow can't wait to see the new digs. > Bill > > From gilcarrick at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 14:00:46 2017 From: gilcarrick at gmail.com (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 14:00:46 -0500 Subject: Computer pickup Message-ID: <002101d2bad1$95e01eb0$c1a05c10$@gmail.com> Cindy Croxton I am interested in the stuff. Please contact me. Gil -- A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director Museum of Information Technology at Arlington 1012 Portofino Drive Arlington, TX 76012 817-994-9213 (cell) - gil.carrick (Skype) http://MIT-A.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 21 17:27:08 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 15:27:08 -0700 Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement In-Reply-To: References: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Mike Lowen's got some photos here: http://q7.neurotica.com/LSSM/ Sadly, I don't see any of what I would call "large scale" systems. Mostly minis and small mainframes. --Chuck From akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to Fri Apr 21 17:37:52 2017 From: akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 18:37:52 -0400 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? In-Reply-To: <22291C2B-F396-4170-96D5-A44366E6968F@comcast.net> (Paul Koning via cctalk's message of "Fri, 21 Apr 2017 08:45:52 -0400") References: <913FE74D-D8B0-4FD6-9DDA-E949720CBC8C@wmata.com> <20170421052629.GG18105@Update.UU.SE> <22291C2B-F396-4170-96D5-A44366E6968F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0qmvb9wfnj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Telecom digest has been running since 1981. I don't know if any of the Amateur Press Associations (APAs) made the leap to digital, but an APA is fundamentally a digest email list done with a copier/mimeograph/hectograph and the postal service as the transport layer, and there's at least one active one that's 80 years old. Paul Koning via cctalk writes: >> On Apr 21, 2017, at 1:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: >> >> Congratulations to us all, even if a little late. >> >> It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist? > > Don't know about *the* oldest, but one that's quite old and still very active is the TZ mailing list (about timezone rules and their ongoing changes). This is the list that collects and distributes the data that keeps clocks worldwide showing the correct local time, at least when politicians give more than a few days' notice of a change. > > The first message on that list is from Arthur Olson, Mon, 24 Nov 86 19:58:12 EST. Though retired now he still occasionally contributes. > > paul From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Apr 21 18:25:57 2017 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 23:25:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: TU-58 in simh References: <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881@mail.yahoo.com> I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on PDP-11s. However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it. Any pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image? TIA, BLS From wkt at tuhs.org Fri Apr 21 19:31:21 2017 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 10:31:21 +1000 Subject: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp? Message-ID: <20170422003121.GA11036@minnie.tuhs.org> The "old Unix" mailing list has been running since October 1995: http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/ Cheers, Warren From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 21 20:20:09 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 18:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement In-Reply-To: References: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Mike Lowen's got some photos here: > http://q7.neurotica.com/LSSM/ > Sadly, I don't see any of what I would call "large scale" systems. > Mostly minis and small mainframes. Few of them would fit in airline checked baggage. You could easily lose a screw, and MAYBE a screwdriver in one, but not a scope or technician. Some words in English, such as "large" are just too subjective. In photography, I consider 8x10" and 5x7" to be "large". 4x5" (9x12cm) is barely "large". It annoys me when people refer to 2.25 x 3.25" (6x9cm) and 3.25 x 4.25" as "large format". (and it infuriates me when people express focal length of lenses in units of "35mm equivalent mm", instead of the actual mm. (my 47mm super-angulon vignettes on long distance of 4x5, but it damn sure ain't a "longer than 'normal'" focal length!)) Alas, the general public are going to insist that anyghing bigger than a PC is "large scale". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From north at alum.mit.edu Fri Apr 21 20:34:35 2017 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 18:34:35 -0700 Subject: TU-58 in simh In-Reply-To: <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9e2dc9aa-33c2-69c7-d33b-98096452df69@alum.mit.edu> On 4/21/2017 4:25 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: > I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on > PDP-11s. However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my > google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it. Any > pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image? > > TIA, > BLS > Using simh v4.0 from github, in the PDP11 simh ini file: *set tdc enable** **attach tdc0 tu58.dsk* then assuming tu58.dsk is a bootable image: *boot tdc0* Only two units 0,1 are supported (just like a real dual drive) and the images must be 262,144 bytes in size (like a real tu58 cartridge). From north at alum.mit.edu Fri Apr 21 20:36:15 2017 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 18:36:15 -0700 Subject: TU-58 in simh In-Reply-To: <9e2dc9aa-33c2-69c7-d33b-98096452df69@alum.mit.edu> References: <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881@mail.yahoo.com> <9e2dc9aa-33c2-69c7-d33b-98096452df69@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <173670aa-b35b-fb61-b2e7-07c75dddb6f6@alum.mit.edu> On 4/21/2017 6:34 PM, Don North via cctalk wrote: > On 4/21/2017 4:25 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: >> I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on >> PDP-11s. However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my >> google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it. Any >> pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image? >> >> TIA, >> BLS >> > Using simh v4.0 from github, in the PDP11 simh ini file: > > set tdc enable > attach tdc0 tu58.dsk > > then assuming tu58.dsk is a bootable image: > > boot tdc0 > > Only two units 0,1 are supported (just like a real dual drive) and the images > must be 262,144 bytes in size (like a real tu58 cartridge). > > Removed the '*'s from the above simh commands (which were inserted because of thunderbird bolding the text ...) From isking at uw.edu Fri Apr 21 20:42:14 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 18:42:14 -0700 Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement In-Reply-To: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> References: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Awesome! I regret I won't be able to be there, but do have a great time. -- Ian On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 12:44 PM, Dave McGuire via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public > museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers, > mainframes, and supercomputers. LSSM has been closed for renovations > and expansion for the past several months; we've added nearly a > thousand square feet of new exhibit space and many new exhibits. > > On May 6th, there will be a large block party (actually, several > blocks) here in town, called "New Kensington Better Block", with > street vendors and other standard block party fare. LSSM will be > participating in that event with our post-renovation reopening; we > will be open to the public all day with docents on duty. Many of our > systems will be running and demonstrated throughout the day. > > In even bigger news, LSSM is pleased to announce the opening of a > brand new wing, the Large Scale Integration Museum, or LSIM. As the > name suggests, the LSIM wing is dedicated to computer systems based on > Large Scale Integration CPUs, from the earliest four-bit 4004 > processors through the desktop computer revolution of the 1970s and > 1980s. Thanks to a partnership with Pennsylvania-based nonprofit > organization Tristate Technology Museum Consortium, and a generous > donation from the private collection of Corey Little and C/PMuseum, > LSIM will add more than one hundred new exhibits in four thousand > square feet of newly-renovated space located in the same building as > the recently-expanded Large Scale Systems Museum. > > Everyone is welcome. LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New > Kensington, PA 15068. For more information, directions, or hotel > recommendations, contact the LSSM via email at info at lssmuseum.org or > on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum"). You can also > see some photos of our facilities on the Facebook page. > > Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think > might be interested. > > Thanks, > -Dave McGuire > President/Curator, LSSM > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From north at alum.mit.edu Fri Apr 21 21:13:06 2017 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 19:13:06 -0700 Subject: TU-58 in simh In-Reply-To: <72b984e2-9d51-ad15-a63a-66c85eff6438@gmail.com> References: <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881@mail.yahoo.com> <9e2dc9aa-33c2-69c7-d33b-98096452df69@alum.mit.edu> <72b984e2-9d51-ad15-a63a-66c85eff6438@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/21/2017 6:55 PM, allison wrote: > On 04/21/2017 09:34 PM, Don North via cctalk wrote: >> On 4/21/2017 4:25 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: >>> I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on >>> PDP-11s. However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my >>> google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it. Any >>> pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image? >>> >>> TIA, >>> BLS >>> >> Using simh v4.0 from github, in the PDP11 simh ini file: >> >> *set tdc enable** >> **attach tdc0 tu58.dsk* >> >> then assuming tu58.dsk is a bootable image: >> >> *boot tdc0* >> >> Only two units 0,1 are supported (just like a real dual drive) and the >> images must be 262,144 bytes in size (like a real tu58 cartridge). >> > I remember TDC was DECcassette (TU-60). > > The boot for RT-11 would be BOOT DD: the tape image should be built > with a DD driver or DDX for RT11XM. > Least that how it works for my physical PDP-11/23 RT11 system. > Generally all the files that should be on > a RT11 floppy needs to be on the tape. > > For other OSs it first has to fit on the device and have a suitable > driver for TU58. > > Allison > TU58 is really not much useful for running any real DEC OS other than XXDP, to run diagnostics; that is what I use it for on my 34 and 44 (real hardware). I don't use TU58 at all under SIMH (does not make much sense). RT-11SJ works running from TU58, but just barely, and it is not really usable. RT11 is barely usable once you move up to a dual drive RX02. test[991] pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 17903827 sim> set tdc enable sim> att tdc0 11xxdp.dsk TDC: buffering file in memory sim> boot tdc0 BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 REVISION: F0 BOOTED FROM DD0 124KW OF MEMORY NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! .DIR ENTRY# FILNAM.EXT DATE LENGTH START VERSION 1 XXDPSM.SYS 1-MAR-89 29 000047 E.0 2 XXDPXM.SYS 1-MAR-89 39 000104 F.0 3 DRSSM .SYS 1-MAR-89 24 000153 G.2 4 DRSXM .SYS 1-MAR-89 48 000203 C.0 5 DATE .SYS 1-MAR-89 2 000263 B.0 6 DB .SYS 1-MAR-89 2 000265 C.0 7 DD .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000267 D.0 8 DIR .SYS 1-MAR-89 7 000272 D.0 9 DL .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000301 D.0 10 DM .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000305 C.0 11 DR .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000311 C.0 12 DU .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000314 E.0 13 DUSZ .SYS 1-MAR-89 2 000320 C.0 14 DY .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000322 D.0 15 LP .SYS 1-MAR-89 1 000325 B.0 16 MM .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000326 C.0 17 MS .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000331 C.0 18 MU .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000335 E.0 19 HELP .TXT 1-MAR-89 29 000341 20 PATCH .BIC 1-MAR-89 31 000376 21 SETUP .BIC 1-MAR-89 27 000435 22 UPDAT .BIC 1-MAR-89 29 000470 23 XTECO .BIC 1-MAR-89 26 000525 24 FLOAT .BIN 1-MAR-89 18 000557 FREE BLOCKS: 126 . From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Apr 21 21:42:19 2017 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 02:42:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: TU-58 in simh References: <342505707.6437552.1492828939949.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <342505707.6437552.1492828939949@mail.yahoo.com> On Fri, 4/21/17, Don North via cctalk wrote: > On 4/21/2017 4:25 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: >> I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on >> PDP-11s.? However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my >> google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it.? Any >> pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image? > > Using simh v4.0 from github, in the PDP11 simh ini file: Thanks much. I was using v3.9 which is why I couldn't find it. Not everything is working yet, but at least it's loading and running the boot block. BLS From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 23:27:59 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 05:27:59 +0100 Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement In-Reply-To: References: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 2:20 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Some words in English, such as "large" are just too subjective. The one I object to, particularly in book titles is 'modern'. I have a wonderful set of books entitled 'Modern Electrical Engineering' with no obvious date. Wonderful in that they describe with full diagrams things like the Baudot Quadruplex telegraph and the electromechanical FIFO buffer and decoder used for signalling on the London Underground. > In photography, I consider 8x10" and 5x7" to be "large". 4x5" (9x12cm) is > barely "large". It annoys me when people refer to 2.25 x 3.25" (6x9cm) and I tend to class '5 by 4' as 'large format' as it tends to be sheet film (rather than roll film) and you often have full camera movements. It is more like the larger formats than, say, 120 roll film. > 3.25 x 4.25" as "large format". (and it infuriates me when people express > focal length of lenses in units of "35mm equivalent mm", instead of the > actual mm. (my 47mm super-angulon vignettes on long distance of 4x5, but it > damn sure ain't a "longer than 'normal'" focal length!)) Agreed. The focal length of a lens is an optical property of said lens, it does not have anything to do with the format of the film. This idea of '35mm equivalent focal length' came in AFAIK with digital cameras, I never saw it before, and I've used film cameras from Minox up to large format. Every lens on every camera was marked with the optical focal length. Oh, and the next person who clams that the focal length of the lens affects the perspective is going to regret it! -tony > > > Alas, the general public are going to insist that anyghing bigger than a PC > is "large scale". > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 23:36:36 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 01:36:36 -0300 Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement In-Reply-To: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> References: <53029f25-976d-599f-b6a8-0c02775448d6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I still think I gotta find a way to travel to USA and spend a month there, attending KansasFest and visiting some long time friends :) 2017-04-21 16:44 GMT-03:00 Dave McGuire via cctalk : > > Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public > museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers, > mainframes, and supercomputers. LSSM has been closed for renovations > and expansion for the past several months; we've added nearly a > thousand square feet of new exhibit space and many new exhibits. > > On May 6th, there will be a large block party (actually, several > blocks) here in town, called "New Kensington Better Block", with > street vendors and other standard block party fare. LSSM will be > participating in that event with our post-renovation reopening; we > will be open to the public all day with docents on duty. Many of our > systems will be running and demonstrated throughout the day. > > In even bigger news, LSSM is pleased to announce the opening of a > brand new wing, the Large Scale Integration Museum, or LSIM. As the > name suggests, the LSIM wing is dedicated to computer systems based on > Large Scale Integration CPUs, from the earliest four-bit 4004 > processors through the desktop computer revolution of the 1970s and > 1980s. Thanks to a partnership with Pennsylvania-based nonprofit > organization Tristate Technology Museum Consortium, and a generous > donation from the private collection of Corey Little and C/PMuseum, > LSIM will add more than one hundred new exhibits in four thousand > square feet of newly-renovated space located in the same building as > the recently-expanded Large Scale Systems Museum. > > Everyone is welcome. LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New > Kensington, PA 15068. For more information, directions, or hotel > recommendations, contact the LSSM via email at info at lssmuseum.org or > on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum"). You can also > see some photos of our facilities on the Facebook page. > > Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think > might be interested. > > Thanks, > -Dave McGuire > President/Curator, LSSM > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 20:55:19 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 21:55:19 -0400 Subject: TU-58 in simh In-Reply-To: <9e2dc9aa-33c2-69c7-d33b-98096452df69@alum.mit.edu> References: <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881@mail.yahoo.com> <9e2dc9aa-33c2-69c7-d33b-98096452df69@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <72b984e2-9d51-ad15-a63a-66c85eff6438@gmail.com> On 04/21/2017 09:34 PM, Don North via cctalk wrote: > On 4/21/2017 4:25 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: >> I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on >> PDP-11s. However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my >> google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it. Any >> pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image? >> >> TIA, >> BLS >> > Using simh v4.0 from github, in the PDP11 simh ini file: > > *set tdc enable** > **attach tdc0 tu58.dsk* > > then assuming tu58.dsk is a bootable image: > > *boot tdc0* > > Only two units 0,1 are supported (just like a real dual drive) and the > images must be 262,144 bytes in size (like a real tu58 cartridge). > I remember TDC was DECcassette (TU-60). The boot for RT-11 would be BOOT DD: the tape image should be built with a DD driver or DDX for RT11XM. Least that how it works for my physical PDP-11/23 RT11 system. Generally all the files that should be on a RT11 floppy needs to be on the tape. For other OSs it first has to fit on the device and have a suitable driver for TU58. Allison From evan at vcfed.org Fri Apr 21 23:49:33 2017 From: evan at vcfed.org (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 00:49:33 -0400 Subject: USA vintage computing trip Message-ID: Hi, I'm going to Kfest for the first time this year, cannot wait!!! Anyway: if you decide to visit here, then give me a few weeks' notice so you can visit the VCF museum in New Jersey. We are in a small town about 60 minutes south of NYC and 90 minutes northeast of Philadelphia. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)(3) educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation instagram.com/vcfederation From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 01:46:27 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 03:46:27 -0300 Subject: USA vintage computing trip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks a lot Evan! But I don't believe this dream can be achieved this year. Maybe in the next :o) 2017-04-22 1:49 GMT-03:00 Evan Koblentz via cctalk : > Hi, > > I'm going to Kfest for the first time this year, cannot wait!!! > > Anyway: if you decide to visit here, then give me a few weeks' notice so > you can visit the VCF museum in New Jersey. We are in a small town about 60 > minutes south of NYC and 90 minutes northeast of Philadelphia. > ________________________________ > Evan Koblentz, director > Vintage Computer Federation > a 501(c)(3) educational non-profit > > evan at vcfed.org > (646) 546-9999 > > www.vcfed.org > facebook.com/vcfederation > twitter.com/vcfederation > instagram.com/vcfederation > From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Apr 22 03:56:58 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 03:56:58 -0500 Subject: A treasure trove in Dallas In-Reply-To: <020901d2bace$aea47b10$0bed7130$@com> References: <020901d2bace$aea47b10$0bed7130$@com> Message-ID: <20170422085658.GA9773@lonesome.com> currently in Houston, heading back to Austin on Sun or Mon, would need to hear about what they want within "soon", have F-150, need vague excuse to go to Little Rock, Arkansas (power5) mcl From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Apr 22 06:54:08 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 11:54:08 +0000 Subject: TU-58 in simh In-Reply-To: References: <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881@mail.yahoo.com> <9e2dc9aa-33c2-69c7-d33b-98096452df69@alum.mit.edu> <72b984e2-9d51-ad15-a63a-66c85eff6438@gmail.com>, Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Don North via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 10:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TU-58 in simh On 4/21/2017 6:55 PM, allison wrote: > On 04/21/2017 09:34 PM, Don North via cctalk wrote: >> On 4/21/2017 4:25 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: >>> I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on >>> PDP-11s. However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my >>> google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it. Any >>> pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image? >>> >>> TIA, >>> BLS >>> >> Using simh v4.0 from github, in the PDP11 simh ini file: >> >> *set tdc enable** >> **attach tdc0 tu58.dsk* >> >> then assuming tu58.dsk is a bootable image: >> >> *boot tdc0* >> >> Only two units 0,1 are supported (just like a real dual drive) and the >> images must be 262,144 bytes in size (like a real tu58 cartridge). >> > I remember TDC was DECcassette (TU-60). > > The boot for RT-11 would be BOOT DD: the tape image should be built > with a DD driver or DDX for RT11XM. > Least that how it works for my physical PDP-11/23 RT11 system. > Generally all the files that should be on > a RT11 floppy needs to be on the tape. > > For other OSs it first has to fit on the device and have a suitable > driver for TU58. > > Allison > TU58 is really not much useful for running any real DEC OS other than XXDP, to run diagnostics; that is what I use it for on my 34 and 44 (real hardware). I don't use TU58 at all under SIMH (does not make much sense). RT-11SJ works running from TU58, but just barely, and it is not really usable. RT11 is barely usable once you move up to a dual drive RX02. _______________________________________ Well, I can't agree with that. I used an LSI-11 with 4 RX02 drives running RT-11 to develop COBOL programs back in the early 80's. It was slow, but that is what coffee breaks were for. bill From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Apr 22 08:21:32 2017 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 09:21:32 -0400 Subject: How to refurbish plotter pens? In-Reply-To: <763471ae-f2c3-c715-5759-efac76d5522d@hachti.de> References: <763471ae-f2c3-c715-5759-efac76d5522d@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20170422132132.GA16178@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 07:37:43PM +0200, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I know the following configs: > > Outer shell (always same), narrow inlay, narrow top cap --> for the > pen you pictured, > > Outer shell, wide inlay, wide top cap --> For the Fisher pen > > Outer shell, some other inlay, ink top cap, some plastic ink pen > stuff --> The ink pen config > > I should have all those. Don't know if more existed. > Not yet tried the ink variant. > Felt tip was also available. picture here http://ferretronix.com/1627/ From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Sat Apr 22 10:22:45 2017 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 10:22:45 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers size Message-ID: >Just how big is the server? >As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's >for the common stuff. >Ben. But wouldn't a nice tape be a much more appropriate distribution medium? I've got an LTO-3 drive here, and that's 400GB/tape. It'd only take one tape to hold bitsavers. :) From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sat Apr 22 11:21:05 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 11:21:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: LambdaDelta 0.98.1 released! Message-ID: Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages - I present to you LambdaDelta, my decidedly average LMI Lambda emulator. See https://github.com/dseagrav/ld for the source repository and release tarball. So far we have been able to run full-speed on a 2.3 GHz i7 and a 2.5 GHz i5, but the i5 was pushing it. The i7 gets a bit warm. Bitsavers now has the LMI software, so there's no reason to hold off on a release other than I would have liked to get fetch working properly at least. I'm going to keep working at it in the meantime. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 22 11:33:08 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 09:33:08 -0700 Subject: LambdaDelta 0.98.1 released! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2950eba8-cd9e-9989-b61f-86153300a599@bitsavers.org> yay! I also sent a note to richard that the RSS seems to have stopped updating mid-march On 4/22/17 9:21 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages - I present to > you LambdaDelta, my decidedly average LMI Lambda emulator. > > See https://github.com/dseagrav/ld for the source repository and release > tarball. So far we have been able to run full-speed on a 2.3 GHz i7 and a > 2.5 GHz i5, but the i5 was pushing it. The i7 gets a bit warm. > > Bitsavers now has the LMI software, so there's no reason to hold off on a > release other than I would have liked to get fetch working properly at > least. I'm going to keep working at it in the meantime. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 22 11:34:18 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 09:34:18 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/22/17 8:22 AM, Joseph Zatarski via cctalk wrote: > But wouldn't a nice tape be a much more appropriate distribution > medium? For the record, I have no intention of creating these "more appropriate" distribution media for anyone. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 22 12:05:12 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 10:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> But wouldn't a nice tape be a much more appropriate distribution >> medium? On Sat, 22 Apr 2017, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > For the record, I have no intention of creating these "more appropriate" > distribution media for anyone. OK, we'll cancel the project of getting you a farm of ultra-durable card punches. :-) It was already looking as though there might be difficulty locating 2 million boxes of blank punch cards. (288G) Per copy. Even the just over a million 8" SSSD floppies were back-ordered. And paper tape would have required opening a new factory. . . . and we'd have had to build up a fleet of station wagons to hurtle down the highway. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 22 12:13:09 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 10:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/ internet V Fedex Unfortunately, their 2040 number is based on an assumption that bandwidth will continue to increase, but that media capacity won't. From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 23:26:33 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 23:26:33 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers size Message-ID: Lol that quote. I guess i can google it but was this from one of his books? "Never?underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway."?Andrew Tanenbaum, 1981 -------- Original message --------From: Fred Cisin via cctalk Date: 4/22/17 12:13 PM (GMT-06:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Bitsavers size https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/ internet V Fedex Unfortunately, their 2040 number is based on an assumption that bandwidth will continue to increase, but that media capacity won't. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sun Apr 23 00:17:02 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 22:17:02 -0700 Subject: SWTPC WAV or TAP files? Message-ID: <09a401d2bbf0$d8886bd0$89994370$@bettercomputing.net> Hi there, I was wondering if anyone knew of a repository that had SWTPC tape files archived (as .WAV, .TAP, etc). The 6800 system I am presently using is wired according to original SWTPC specs and does not have a DB25.. so I cannot simply switch cables from CT1024 to PC terminal like I could with my other unit. I'd really like to make use of the AC30 also for a more authentic experience and was hoping someone had wavs archived somewhere so I could play them into the AC30 with my phone or something and then record to actual tape. For the last couple of evenings I have been manually entering in the data for TSC BASIC from a txt file Bill Degnan was kind enough to post.. just doing as much as I can stand to and then saving progress to tape. Eventually when it's finished I'll make a wav archive and just use tape to load it. Obviously I wouldn't want to do that for every program though. Anyway, I know someone on vcfed at one point was talking of setting up an archive and even had made copies of Tic Tac Toe and 680 BASIC. Hoping someone out there knows where those and/or more might be found, or if there's another way (say using two MP-C/S cards) to pull in S19 files and then record via AC-30 to tape. Thanks muchly! B From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 12:08:12 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 13:08:12 -0400 Subject: TU-58 in simh In-Reply-To: References: <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1337677566.6374390.1492817157881@mail.yahoo.com> <9e2dc9aa-33c2-69c7-d33b-98096452df69@alum.mit.edu> <72b984e2-9d51-ad15-a63a-66c85eff6438@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 04/21/2017 10:13 PM, Don North via cctalk wrote: > On 4/21/2017 6:55 PM, allison wrote: >> On 04/21/2017 09:34 PM, Don North via cctalk wrote: >>> On 4/21/2017 4:25 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: >>>> I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on >>>> PDP-11s. However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my >>>> google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it. Any >>>> pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image? >>>> >>>> TIA, >>>> BLS >>>> >>> Using simh v4.0 from github, in the PDP11 simh ini file: >>> >>> *set tdc enable** >>> **attach tdc0 tu58.dsk* >>> >>> then assuming tu58.dsk is a bootable image: >>> >>> *boot tdc0* >>> >>> Only two units 0,1 are supported (just like a real dual drive) and the >>> images must be 262,144 bytes in size (like a real tu58 cartridge). >>> >> I remember TDC was DECcassette (TU-60). >> >> The boot for RT-11 would be BOOT DD: the tape image should be built >> with a DD driver or DDX for RT11XM. >> Least that how it works for my physical PDP-11/23 RT11 system. >> Generally all the files that should be on >> a RT11 floppy needs to be on the tape. >> >> For other OSs it first has to fit on the device and have a suitable >> driver for TU58. >> >> Allison >> > TU58 is really not much useful for running any real DEC OS other than > XXDP, to run diagnostics; that is what I use it for on my 34 and 44 > (real hardware). I don't use TU58 at all under SIMH (does not make > much sense). > > RT-11SJ works running from TU58, but just barely, and it is not really > usable. RT11 is barely usable once you move up to a dual drive RX02. > Actually maybe.... IF you set up RT-11 XM and have an 11/23 or larger the memory over 32KW can be used as a virtual disk. The process boots using Tu58 and copies to VM and set the boot device as XM and then boots XM. The com file basically copies the tape to VM then configures the boot for XM and the boots it. Then the tu58 is free for use as storage and to add programs to VM. The down side is a boot is about 5-8 minutes but once VM is up and booted very fast and useful. I've done this in a BA-11VA 4slot with 11/23cpu, 256K ram, MRV11, DLV11J and the TU58 stacked above it. The result si 192K of VM and two drives. Its compact as PDP-11s go and actually runs useful programs. An enlarged system is a DEC 12 slot dual width Q22 cage with 11/23 cpu (M8156), 2mb of ram (M8059), and a MRV11 (Carries boot roms) plus DLV11J. The roms are copies of 11/23+. I enjoy playing with real hardware. I have larger BA11S boxes with 11/23, 11/23+, 11/73 and a ba23 microPDP11 as test systems and working systems with a full array of disks, floppies and the only tape that seems to work the TU58 (don't mention the TK50, please). The only PDP-11 sim I've used is John Wilson's Ersatz-11, its very good. Allison > > test[991] pdp11 > > PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 17903827 > sim> set tdc enable > sim> att tdc0 11xxdp.dsk > TDC: buffering file in memory > sim> boot tdc0 > > BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR > > XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 > REVISION: F0 > BOOTED FROM DD0 > 124KW OF MEMORY > NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM > > RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 > TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! > > .DIR > > ENTRY# FILNAM.EXT DATE LENGTH START VERSION > > 1 XXDPSM.SYS 1-MAR-89 29 000047 E.0 > 2 XXDPXM.SYS 1-MAR-89 39 000104 F.0 > 3 DRSSM .SYS 1-MAR-89 24 000153 G.2 > 4 DRSXM .SYS 1-MAR-89 48 000203 C.0 > 5 DATE .SYS 1-MAR-89 2 000263 B.0 > 6 DB .SYS 1-MAR-89 2 000265 C.0 > 7 DD .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000267 D.0 > 8 DIR .SYS 1-MAR-89 7 000272 D.0 > 9 DL .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000301 D.0 > 10 DM .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000305 C.0 > 11 DR .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000311 C.0 > 12 DU .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000314 E.0 > 13 DUSZ .SYS 1-MAR-89 2 000320 C.0 > 14 DY .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000322 D.0 > 15 LP .SYS 1-MAR-89 1 000325 B.0 > 16 MM .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000326 C.0 > 17 MS .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000331 C.0 > 18 MU .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000335 E.0 > 19 HELP .TXT 1-MAR-89 29 000341 > 20 PATCH .BIC 1-MAR-89 31 000376 > 21 SETUP .BIC 1-MAR-89 27 000435 > 22 UPDAT .BIC 1-MAR-89 29 000470 > 23 XTECO .BIC 1-MAR-89 26 000525 > 24 FLOAT .BIN 1-MAR-89 18 000557 > > FREE BLOCKS: 126 > > . > > From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Sat Apr 22 22:10:22 2017 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 20:10:22 -0700 Subject: SWTPC Tape files Message-ID: <099501d2bbdf$26496110$72dc2330$@yahoo.ca> Hi there, I was wondering if anyone knew of a repository that had SWTPC tape files archived (as .WAV, .TAP, etc). The 6800 system I am presently using is wired according to original SWTPC specs and does not have a DB25.. so I cannot simply switch cables from CT1024 to PC terminal like I could with my other unit. I'd really like to make use of the AC30 also for a more authentic experience and was hoping someone had wavs archived somewhere so I could play them into the AC30 with my phone or something and then record to actual tape. For the last couple of evenings I have been manually entering in the data for TSC BASIC from a txt file Bill Degnan was kind enough to post.. just doing as much as I can stand to and then saving progress to tape. Eventually when it's finished I'll make a wav archive and just use tape to load it. Obviously I wouldn't want to do that for every program though. Anyway, I know someone on vcfed at one point was talking of setting up an archive and even had made copies of Tic Tac Toe and 680 BASIC. Hoping someone out there knows where those and/or more might be found, or if there's another way (say using two MP-C/S cards) to pull in S19 files and then record via AC-30 to tape. Thanks muchly! B From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sun Apr 23 07:05:17 2017 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 14:05:17 +0200 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1492949117.19735.22.camel@agj.net> l?r 2017-04-22 klockan 10:13 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk: > https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/ > > internet V Fedex > > Unfortunately, their 2040 number is based on an assumption that bandwidth > will continue to increase, but that media capacity won't. Andrew Tanenbaum makes another of those points in his "Computer Networks" is responsible for another such (this in a ref to a diagram of the electromagnetical spectrum) : it should now be obvious why networking people like fiber optics so much. df/dLambda = -1 * (c / (lambda*lambda)) Which basically says that people who believes wireless radio-telecommunication can compete against optics in pure thruput is smoking. From als at thangorodrim.ch Sun Apr 23 10:53:37 2017 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 17:53:37 +0200 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170423155336.GA32760@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 05:49:20PM +0000, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > Ben asks: > > Just how big is the server? > > As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the common stuff. > > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes. > > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's. Or a single LTO3 cartridge, with room to spare ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From brain at jbrain.com Sun Apr 23 22:14:24 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:14:24 -0500 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) Message-ID: <02a21879-2f95-a085-e8aa-f8799054a820@jbrain.com> Just picked up a TRS-80 Model 12, and it boot to the "insert disk prompt" ... Yay! But, no card cage, and no KB (and no disks, but those might be easier to find) Found a seller of a model 12 with these items, but local pickup only. I'd like to get this unit up to the Model 16 specs, with Xenix on it. I see the cards are available, but without the cage, no joy. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Apr 23 22:21:43 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 23:21:43 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) Message-ID: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> is the 12 the thing that looks like a trs 80 mod 2 in size? if so i have some what is the history behind your unit!?!?!?!?!?!? Yes--- I am in Phx! Ed# In a message dated 4/23/2017 8:14:33 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Just picked up a TRS-80 Model 12, and it boot to the "insert disk prompt" ... Yay! But, no card cage, and no KB (and no disks, but those might be easier to find) Found a seller of a model 12 with these items, but local pickup only. I'd like to get this unit up to the Model 16 specs, with Xenix on it. I see the cards are available, but without the cage, no joy. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 23 22:40:28 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 20:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) In-Reply-To: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Apr 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: > is the 12 the thing that looks like a trs 80 mod 2 in size? if so i > have some > what is the history behind your unit!?!?!?!?!?!? > Yes--- I am in Phx! Ed# Yes, the 2, the 12, and the 16 look similar. There are Z80 and 68000 CPU boards. Which of the variant versions of CP/M do you have for it? From brain at jbrain.com Sun Apr 23 22:43:49 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:43:49 -0500 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) In-Reply-To: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> Message-ID: On 4/23/2017 10:21 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > is the 12 the thing that looks like a trs 80 mod 2 in size? if so > i have some Yes, with 2 8" slimline drives (tandon?) > what is the history behind your unit!?!?!?!?!?!? Not much known at present. As some know, the 26th Annual CocoFEST! (TRS-80 Color Computer) fest happened this weekend in Chicago. This year, the group courted the non Coco TRS-80 crowd, so there were some Model I/III/4 stuff there as well. Anyway, as a way to make enough money to keep the show going another year, they hold a nice charity auction. It's a fun time, and everyone bids to ensure the show reaps the funds needed to continue things. Well, this year, Jason Timmons (of VCF-MW fame) brought in 2 Model 12 units for the auction. As I understand, he had grand intentions, but time grew short, and he decided the see these units off to a nice home and help out the show. Ever since the 2016 VCF-MW show and seeing the Model 6000 BBS, I've been eyeing a Model II-like system. (6000s are really expensive). When Jason told me these were in the auction, I jumped at the chance to bid. I and a Model II/16 owner entertained the audience for a while, but I prevailed and secured both units (it was a combined lot). One is not too bad in shape, cosmetically, but the other has a cracked case and is severely yellowed. Jason had never booted the machines, and everyone assumed it would require both units to make one running unit. I just made it home a few hours ago from the show, and I powered both units (risky, but sometimes, we are all kids). Both come up with crisp screens to the boot prompt. I opened both units, and the yellowed unit actually has the cleaner interior, while the nicer unit is OK inside, but has a bit of the white corrosion on metal parts like the drive mechs, etc. I'll ask Jason for more history, but I can only speak to my knowledge of this weekend (and the fact that i managed to get all of my Coco stuff, my daughter, myself, and the 2 complete units home in a smart Fortwo car... That was an engineering feat in itself). My goal is to see if I can get them running and potentially running Unix by TANDY Assembly in October. I think Jason would like seeing that they went to a good home and are well cared for. But, drive state is unknown, no boot disks, no card cage, no 68K, no more RAM, and no KB (though Jason said he thought he had a broken KB for it he could ship). I suppose the more prudent thing would be to part them out, but I really want a 8" machine (I realize I'm a noob compared to the rest here, but David Lightman's 8" floppies and his IMSAI 8080 with the dual 8" drives made a distinct impression) > Yes--- I am in Phx! Ed# Cool. I am glad I sent out an email, though I thought everyone would internally laugh (what's the goober doing now). I'll contact off list. Jim From brain at jbrain.com Sun Apr 23 22:48:14 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:48:14 -0500 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) In-Reply-To: References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> Message-ID: <0a153873-8eb6-d5fc-20ec-6d85489e09f8@jbrain.com> On 4/23/2017 10:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 23 Apr 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: >> is the 12 the thing that looks like a trs 80 mod 2 in size? if so i >> have some >> what is the history behind your unit!?!?!?!?!?!? >> Yes--- I am in Phx! Ed# > > Yes, the 2, the 12, and the 16 look similar. > There are Z80 and 68000 CPU boards. > > Which of the variant versions of CP/M do you have for it? > > > Sadly, I have nothing for it at present (just acquired). After I bought, someone approached me and offered to send some model 12 disks, so I'll send him an email and see if the units will respond more fully. I can attest this is a Model 12, with no card cage (well, two of them, no difference). The one has seen a hard life, but I think at least one restorable unit is present here. The other case is badly damaged and the parts are long gone, but the internals could be of assistance to someone. I thought perhaps taking the lesser unit (after seeing about making a small PC KEYB interface for the unit and getting some boot disks for it) to TANDY Assembly and donating it to help that show (or the next CocoFEST show, mostly because I don't think there is enough room in his abode for two of those units long term :-) Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Sun Apr 23 22:52:41 2017 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:52:41 -0500 Subject: HP-UX 11.11 patches Message-ID: I think this is probably a long shot, but does anyone have patches for HP-UX 11.11 for PA-RISC? I can't exactly buy an HP support contract just to download patches, which is apparently my only other option since google doesn't turn up anything. I'm specifically looking to get PHSS_24304 installed because that fixes a linker issue that prevents building anything with GNU G++. I think I might be able to get around the issue if I use GNU ld, but that has it's own issues as I understand it. I'm new to HP-UX, so if you need more info just ask. Joe From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Apr 23 23:12:04 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 00:12:04 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) Message-ID: <1b7d6.5e05b8e2.462ed514@aol.com> Well ... they are packed away at present.. I do know there are several systems and a printer. Do not remember if there was software with them or not. stashed many years ago... I always had wished it was a model II and I suppose was holding this it in reserve in case a 2 does not show. In a message dated 4/23/2017 8:40:37 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Sun, 23 Apr 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: > is the 12 the thing that looks like a trs 80 mod 2 in size? if so i > have some > what is the history behind your unit!?!?!?!?!?!? > Yes--- I am in Phx! Ed# Yes, the 2, the 12, and the 16 look similar. There are Z80 and 68000 CPU boards. Which of the variant versions of CP/M do you have for it? From hachti at hachti.de Sun Apr 23 21:01:56 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 04:01:56 +0200 Subject: How to refurbish plotter pens? In-Reply-To: <20170422132132.GA16178@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <763471ae-f2c3-c715-5759-efac76d5522d@hachti.de> <20170422132132.GA16178@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <8ea76303-b041-b8e8-b463-b54a6301eb39@hachti.de> On 22.04.2017 15:21, David Gesswein via cctech wrote: > Felt tip was also available. > picture here http://ferretronix.com/1627/ Wow, great page! I think I also have the felt tip metal thing somewhere. I have to find that plastic box with Calcomp stuff again....! From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Apr 24 00:35:36 2017 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:35:36 -0700 Subject: SWTPC Tape files In-Reply-To: <099501d2bbdf$26496110$72dc2330$@yahoo.ca> References: <099501d2bbdf$26496110$72dc2330$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <003201d2bcbc$9a3c91e0$ceb5b5a0$@comcast.net> The SWTPC website has aa audio file for a memory test program of the bottom of this page. (ZIP file) http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/AC30/AC30_Index.htm Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad via cctalk Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 8:10 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: SWTPC Tape files Hi there, I was wondering if anyone knew of a repository that had SWTPC tape files archived (as .WAV, .TAP, etc). The 6800 system I am presently using is wired according to original SWTPC specs and does not have a DB25.. so I cannot simply switch cables from CT1024 to PC terminal like I could with my other unit. I'd really like to make use of the AC30 also for a more authentic experience and was hoping someone had wavs archived somewhere so I could play them into the AC30 with my phone or something and then record to actual tape. For the last couple of evenings I have been manually entering in the data for TSC BASIC from a txt file Bill Degnan was kind enough to post.. just doing as much as I can stand to and then saving progress to tape. Eventually when it's finished I'll make a wav archive and just use tape to load it. Obviously I wouldn't want to do that for every program though. Anyway, I know someone on vcfed at one point was talking of setting up an archive and even had made copies of Tic Tac Toe and 680 BASIC. Hoping someone out there knows where those and/or more might be found, or if there's another way (say using two MP-C/S cards) to pull in S19 files and then record via AC-30 to tape. Thanks muchly! B From radioengr at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 01:25:25 2017 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 23:25:25 -0700 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) In-Reply-To: <02a21879-2f95-a085-e8aa-f8799054a820@jbrain.com> References: <02a21879-2f95-a085-e8aa-f8799054a820@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4f7cdfc5-c907-e18d-880e-4107ddfcf802@gmail.com> I'm in the Phoenix area - Peoria specifically. Let me know if I an help. On 4/23/2017 8:14 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Found a seller of a model 12 with these items, but local pickup > only. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Apr 24 02:16:57 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 03:16:57 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) Message-ID: <1d2d2.bff9e3d.462f0069@aol.com> very good radioengr give Jim a hand with it It is going to take a pretty big box to ship it for Jim.. I am trying to remember how big the think is I have not seen ours in eons. We have some large boxes we have saved but will have to see what it would take to get at them. The one thing I would recommend is some sort of internal support against crushing.. almost an inner reinforcing frame that would prevent collapse of the box and thus shattering the plastic. Used to run into stuff like this when shipping hp 2624 terminals etc. Then the other way is one huge ass box and that injectable foam stuff in 2 molded sections... with some wood stakes that keep top from crushing. Ed# In a message dated 4/23/2017 11:25:43 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: I'm in the Phoenix area - Peoria specifically. Let me know if I an help. On 4/23/2017 8:14 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Found a seller of a model 12 with these items, but local pickup > only. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 04:35:13 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 10:35:13 +0100 Subject: Genuine KM11 board Message-ID: Are any DEC enthusiasts here jealous of this : https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/33427116663/in/dateposted-public/ -tony From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Apr 24 04:42:36 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:42:36 +0200 Subject: Genuine KM11 board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170424094235.GP18105@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 10:35:13AM +0100, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > Are any DEC enthusiasts here jealous of this : > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/33427116663/in/dateposted-public/ > A little bit. I like your key fob, although it must be quite uncomfortable in a pocket :) Perhaps the only place I'd favour a knuckle buster grant card over a full length one. /P From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 06:30:16 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 12:30:16 +0100 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: <20170423155336.GA32760@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20170423155336.GA32760@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On 23 April 2017 at 16:53, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > Or a single LTO3 cartridge, with room to spare ;-) So what we need to do is calculate the bandwidth of a truck full of LTO-3 tapes hurtling down a highway, surely? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From pete at pski.net Mon Apr 24 06:37:57 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 07:37:57 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) In-Reply-To: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> Message-ID: > > In a message dated 4/23/2017 8:14:33 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > Just picked up a TRS-80 Model 12, and it boot to the "insert disk > prompt" ... Yay! > > But, no card cage, and no KB (and no disks, but those might be easier to > find) > > I'd like to get this unit up to the Model 16 specs, with Xenix on it. I > see the cards are available, but without the cage, no joy. > > > Jim Jim, I?m glad to see you picked up those Model 12s. I was watching Stevie?s CocoFest livestream and could not believe Model 12s showed up at the auction! I was thinking what a good deal you got! Wish I was there. I have a Model II/16 disk service I offer for free if you?re interested. http://pski.net/trs-80-model-ii-archive-project/ You can find the MC68000 board set (you?ll need a CPU board and at least one memory board) on eBay quite often. In most cases, it will be the Model 16 6Mhz board which will allow you to run TRS-XENIX 1.x. If you?re lucky, you?ll find the Model 6000 8Mhz board which will allow you to run Xenix 3.2. Finding a card cage is the hard part. These are extremely rare but do pop up from time to time. There is another option called the Hans-02 and 03 adapters created by Hans Rietveld which is a modern replacement for the card cage. You can find them on Ian Mavric?s site. http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/Hans/ I?m happy to hear you?re thinking about bringing a working example of one of these to Tandy Assembly. The 8? Tandy?s are an important part of computing history that sometimes don?t get the respect they deserve. For those of you that may not have heard about it, TA is happening in October 2017. http://www.tandyassembly.com/ From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Apr 24 06:39:25 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:39:25 +0000 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) In-Reply-To: References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com>, Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Jim Brain via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 11:43 PM To: COURYHOUSE at aol.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) On 4/23/2017 10:21 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > is the 12 the thing that looks like a trs 80 mod 2 in size? if so > i have some Yes, with 2 8" slimline drives (tandon?) > what is the history behind your unit!?!?!?!?!?!? Not much known at present. As some know, the 26th Annual CocoFEST! (TRS-80 Color Computer) fest happened this weekend in Chicago. This year, the group courted the non Coco TRS-80 crowd, so there were some Model I/III/4 stuff there as well. Anyway, as a way to make enough money to keep the show going another year, they hold a nice charity auction. It's a fun time, and everyone bids to ensure the show reaps the funds needed to continue things. Well, this year, Jason Timmons (of VCF-MW fame) brought in 2 Model 12 units for the auction. As I understand, he had grand intentions, but time grew short, and he decided the see these units off to a nice home and help out the show. Ever since the 2016 VCF-MW show and seeing the Model 6000 BBS, I've been eyeing a Model II-like system. (6000s are really expensive). When Jason told me these were in the auction, I jumped at the chance to bid. I and a Model II/16 owner entertained the audience for a while, but I prevailed and secured both units (it was a combined lot). One is not too bad in shape, cosmetically, but the other has a cracked case and is severely yellowed. Jason had never booted the machines, and everyone assumed it would require both units to make one running unit. I just made it home a few hours ago from the show, and I powered both units (risky, but sometimes, we are all kids). Both come up with crisp screens to the boot prompt. I opened both units, and the yellowed unit actually has the cleaner interior, while the nicer unit is OK inside, but has a bit of the white corrosion on metal parts like the drive mechs, etc. I'll ask Jason for more history, but I can only speak to my knowledge of this weekend (and the fact that i managed to get all of my Coco stuff, my daughter, myself, and the 2 complete units home in a smart Fortwo car... That was an engineering feat in itself). My goal is to see if I can get them running and potentially running Unix by TANDY Assembly in October. I think Jason would like seeing that they went to a good home and are well cared for. But, drive state is unknown, no boot disks, no card cage, no 68K, no more RAM, and no KB (though Jason said he thought he had a broken KB for it he could ship). I suppose the more prudent thing would be to part them out, but I really want a 8" machine (I realize I'm a noob compared to the rest here, but David Lightman's 8" floppies and his IMSAI 8080 with the dual 8" drives made a distinct impression) > Yes--- I am in Phx! Ed# Cool. I am glad I sent out an email, though I thought everyone would internally laugh (what's the goober doing now). I'll contact off list. Jim ___________________________________ There was never a 68K in the Model 12. The Model 12 is to the Model 2 what the 6000 was to the 16. It should make a great CP/M machine, though. I used to run Pickles&Trout but I imagine chances of finding that are slim today. Might need to get the CP/M Archives and try rolling your own. bill From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 06:49:25 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 12:49:25 +0100 Subject: Genuine KM11 board In-Reply-To: <20170424094235.GP18105@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170424094235.GP18105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 10:35:13AM +0100, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> Are any DEC enthusiasts here jealous of this : >> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/33427116663/in/dateposted-public/ >> > > A little bit. I like your key fob, although it must be quite > uncomfortable in a pocket :) Perhaps the only place I'd favour a knuckle > buster grant card over a full length one. There are actually _2_ grant cards on the keyring. The Unibus one and a very short single-height Qbus one (I think it came from Interlan originally). And yes, I do carry them in my pocket all the time... -tony From pete at pski.net Mon Apr 24 06:55:07 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 07:55:07 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) In-Reply-To: References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> Message-ID: <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net> > On Apr 24, 2017, at 7:37 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > >> >> Just picked up a TRS-80 Model 12, and it boot to the "insert disk >> prompt" ... Yay! >> >> Jim > > > You can find the MC68000 board set (you?ll need a CPU board and at least one memory board) on eBay quite often. In most cases, it will be the Model 16 6Mhz board which will allow you to run TRS-XENIX 1.x. If you?re lucky, you?ll find the Model 6000 8Mhz board which will allow you to run Xenix 3.2. Finding a card cage is the hard part. These are extremely rare but do pop up from time to time. There is another option called the Hans-02 and 03 adapters created by Hans Rietveld which is a modern replacement for the card cage. You can find them on Ian Mavric?s site. > > http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/Hans/ Correction: You?d want the Hans 03 and 04 In regards to the keyboard, the later Model 12/16B/6000 keyboards are hard to find. The Model II keyboard is more common. You can easily use the Model II/16 keyboard with these by creating a new 5pin DIN cable and switching a few of the keyboard input pins and swapping the gender of the connector. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 24 07:44:50 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 00:44:50 +1200 Subject: What would cause a regular pattern of bad sectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi guys, Ive been extracting data off a 3.5 inch windows XP-formatted floppy disk with many bad sectors. The odd thing is it's always the same bad sectors on every track. Such a 3, 8, 12 and 17. Once or twice it might be just 3, 8 and 17. Or occasionally 3, 8, 9 12, 17. This patten is the same for every track. It's (more or less) always the same sectors that are bad. Why? I can't believe natural degredation would be so consistent. Anyone have any thoughts? Terry (tez) From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Apr 24 08:16:26 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 09:16:26 -0400 Subject: What would cause a regular pattern of bad sectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47929D69-9FB8-454C-B0DA-79820B7E010C@comcast.net> > On Apr 24, 2017, at 8:44 AM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > > Hi guys, > > Ive been extracting data off a 3.5 inch windows XP-formatted floppy disk > with many bad sectors. The odd thing is it's always the same bad sectors > on every track. Such a 3, 8, 12 and 17. Once or twice it might be just 3, > 8 and 17. Or occasionally 3, 8, 9 12, 17. This patten is the same for > every track. It's (more or less) always the same sectors that are bad. > Why? I can't believe natural degredation would be so consistent. Anyone > have any thoughts? A radial scratch on the media? paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 24 08:51:29 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 13:51:29 +0000 Subject: What would cause a regular pattern of bad sectors? In-Reply-To: <47929D69-9FB8-454C-B0DA-79820B7E010C@comcast.net> References: , <47929D69-9FB8-454C-B0DA-79820B7E010C@comcast.net> Message-ID: Heat damage can cause a fold or wrinkle as well. Many format programs don't look at the index anymore as it isn't important for reading the disk. It is only used to indicate that the disk is turning. That is why you see it moving each time you reformat. It is the same place on the disk surface. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 6:16:26 AM To: Terry Stewart; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What would cause a regular pattern of bad sectors? > On Apr 24, 2017, at 8:44 AM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > > Hi guys, > > Ive been extracting data off a 3.5 inch windows XP-formatted floppy disk > with many bad sectors. The odd thing is it's always the same bad sectors > on every track. Such a 3, 8, 12 and 17. Once or twice it might be just 3, > 8 and 17. Or occasionally 3, 8, 9 12, 17. This patten is the same for > every track. It's (more or less) always the same sectors that are bad. > Why? I can't believe natural degredation would be so consistent. Anyone > have any thoughts? A radial scratch on the media? paul From chris at groessler.org Mon Apr 24 08:55:13 2017 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 15:55:13 +0200 Subject: Tektronix 8560 floppies In-Reply-To: <475e0b13-c4a8-8dd1-89c3-864537b3c64e@groessler.org> References: <475e0b13-c4a8-8dd1-89c3-864537b3c64e@groessler.org> Message-ID: Hi, I've imaged (with ImageDisk) some floppies I've got with my "new" 8560 system. You can find them at ftp://ftp.groessler.org/pub/chris/tektronix/8560/diskimages . Among other things there are cross-assemblers for 68000, 6809, and 6800. From the TNIX installation disk set one is missing (disk 5 of 5). I'm looking for the Z8000 cross-assembler for TNIX. Does anyone have it? regards, chris From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 09:34:12 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 10:34:12 -0400 Subject: Genuine KM11 board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:35 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > Are any DEC enthusiasts here jealous of this : > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/33427116663/in/dateposted-public/ Yes. I have a replica KM-11 but the real thing is cool. -ethan From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 09:44:53 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 15:44:53 +0100 Subject: Genuine KM11 board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:35 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk > wrote: >> Are any DEC enthusiasts here jealous of this : >> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/33427116663/in/dateposted-public/ > > Yes. I have a replica KM-11 but the real thing is cool. Yes, I have a replica too. I made it before I got the real ones (I have 2 genuine KM11s...) What I don't have, but have the prints for, is the W133 module, which is a dual-height version of the board of transistors (I forget if that's the W130 or W131). I do not know if there was ever a dual height lamps board to go with it, or if you just used 2 single-height boards. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 24 10:03:34 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 08:03:34 -0700 Subject: What would cause a regular pattern of bad sectors? In-Reply-To: References: <47929D69-9FB8-454C-B0DA-79820B7E010C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4607bd62-3290-17b4-e49a-bb88d60b6c8e@sydex.com> On 04/24/2017 06:51 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Many format programs don't look at the index anymore as it isn't > important for reading the disk. It is only used to indicate that the > disk is turning. That may be true for some systems, but for the NEC 765-based controllers found in PCs, the format operation always starts at the index (and ends there too). What isn't dependent on the index is the sector ordering; it's not at all uncommon to see a cylinder- and track- skew factor built in, such that cylinder 0, side 0 starts with sector numbering 1,2,3...18; cylinder 0, side 1 starts as 4,5,6...18,1,2,3 and so on. It avoids a lost rev when moving from track to track. Similarly, when reading, if the IDAM for a desired sector isn't seen after 2 index pulses, the 765 calls it a "not found". There are index-ignorant controllers out there, but the PC isn't one of those. My guess on the symptoms described is a scratch or spill. Sometimes these floppies can be brought back by a simple cleaning of the cookie. --Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Mon Apr 24 10:03:41 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 08:03:41 -0700 Subject: Genuine KM11 board (and plea for RX01 Front Bezel) Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A8AC@mail.bensene.com> Tony D. wrote: > Are any DEC enthusiasts here jealous of this : >https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/33427116663/in/dateposted-public/ Interesting coincidence. I was digging through some boxes of stuff yesterday, and I came across two sets of these in really nice condition. Haven't tested 'em yet (had /no/ idea that they could be used for diagnosis of an RX01 control board) but looks like they should be pretty simple to check out. I had didn't know of the existence of these before yesterday. I did a little searching and found that they are useful for debugging 11/35 and 11/40 systems, as well as RK05 drives...but didn't see anything about the RX01 drive electronics. Speaking of RX01's, does anyone out there have a spare front bezel for the RX01 that they'd be willing to part with? I have a working RX01 on my 8/e system (both drives good, amazingly) but the bezel was missing when I got it. It'd be nice to have, as it looks rather dumpy in the rack with the rest of the system. Best wishes to all, -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon USA From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 24 10:08:55 2017 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 10:08:55 -0500 Subject: Computer pickup In-Reply-To: <002101d2bad1$95e01eb0$c1a05c10$@gmail.com> References: <002101d2bad1$95e01eb0$c1a05c10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <066d01d2bd0c$b11200d0$13360270$@com> Richard Byron Computer Reset 9525 Skillman St Dallas, TX 214-348-6484 Richard is one of the nicest old men I have ever met! He has been repairing computers and terminals since 1983. Please be aware that if you have allergies, PLEASE take Benadryl or something before you go. The aisles are only about 2 feet wide, and crammed full of everything. The place stinks, like something crawled under a pallet and died. There are bugs everywhere, and one pallet full of termites. Even so, it is a real treasure trove. I hope you and some other guys can rescue the stuff before more deterioration. He is looking for at least $1000 per cabinet. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gil Carrick via cctalk Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 2:01 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Computer pickup Cindy Croxton I am interested in the stuff. Please contact me. Gil -- A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director Museum of Information Technology at Arlington 1012 Portofino Drive Arlington, TX 76012 817-994-9213 (cell) - gil.carrick (Skype) http://MIT-A.com From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 24 10:54:24 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 08:54:24 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 8560 floppies In-Reply-To: References: <475e0b13-c4a8-8dd1-89c3-864537b3c64e@groessler.org> Message-ID: <1e0de7c5-a5ec-bb32-ffc8-03c122f3664a@bitsavers.org> On 4/24/17 6:55 AM, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I've imaged (with ImageDisk) some floppies I've got with my "new" 8560 system. that reminds me I wanted to see if the a.out format was compatible with stock V7 and if the tools would run on an ordinary PDP-11 Unix V7 system. From pete at pski.net Mon Apr 24 10:56:17 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:56:17 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) In-Reply-To: <691411988.166444.1493048946466@email.1and1.com> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> <691411988.166444.1493048946466@email.1and1.com> Message-ID: <69A7FD12-2C49-4373-A95C-2E82AB09A71A@pski.net> > On Apr 24, 2017, at 11:49 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > > I'll email off-list about disks, as I truly know so little about the unit, I'm not sure what to ask for. Certainly. > > Are you considering going to Assembly? If so, I'd defer to your exhibit, as you know much more about these units. Yes, I'm one of the founders. :) > > I'd like to at least try out the XENIX side, if I can. Linux on a 386 is nice, but it's just not the same. > Agree completely. There's nothing like running a true Unix descendent on legacy hardware. > I suspect all of the drives will need attention, but I could be surprised. More likely than not especially give the condition you mention. The TM-848s are not the most hearty of drives. From pete at pski.net Mon Apr 24 10:59:33 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:59:33 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) In-Reply-To: <1955177647.166091.1493048195417@email.1and1.com> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net> <1955177647.166091.1493048195417@email.1and1.com> Message-ID: <8BE5A75B-4AA0-4AD4-A161-7C8C2D512A23@pski.net> > On Apr 24, 2017, at 11:36 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > > For now, since the KB is most needed and somewhat hard to find, and since I design HW for classic machines, I think a small uC and some wire might tide me over until I can find a reasonably priced KB. I did a quick check, but have not seen any writeup of the protocol and keyscan matrix. Does such a thing exist? I haven't seen such although I know a few folks with ambitions of such project. I can put you in touch if they're not actively listening to this list and want to chime in. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 24 12:39:03 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 13:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Genuine KM11 board Message-ID: <20170424173903.ADDB918C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > Are any DEC enthusiasts here jealous of this Actually, not me! I'm an old enough campaigner that I recall when real light bulbs were standard, and they were a total PITA! So when LED's arrived, we all though they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. So I'm now very happy with my LED-equipped KM11 clones - I still have that anti-bulb bias! :-) Noel From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 12:48:53 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:48:53 +0100 Subject: Genuine KM11 board (and plea for RX01 Front Bezel) In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A8AC@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A8AC@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > Tony D. wrote: > >> Are any DEC enthusiasts here jealous of this : >>https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/33427116663/in/dateposted-public/ > > Interesting coincidence. I was digging through some boxes of stuff yesterday, and I came > across two sets of these in really nice condition. Haven't tested 'em yet (had /no/ idea > that they could be used for diagnosis of an RX01 control board) but looks like they should > be pretty simple to check out. I had didn't know of the existence of these before yesterday. > I did a little searching and found that they are useful for debugging 11/35 and 11/40 systems, > as well as RK05 drives...but didn't see anything about the RX01 drive electronics. They are certainly used with the 11/35 and 11/40. Also with the 11/05 and 11/10, I think the 11/20 has a slot for them (that's what the labels in the etch of a genuine KM11 seem to be for) and the 11/45. Possibly other Unibus processors AFAIK they are not used with RK05 drives, but are used with both types of Unibus controller for same (RK11-C and RK11-D). And the RK11 of course. Possibly other things, but those are the ones I've come across. > > Speaking of RX01's, does anyone out there have a spare front bezel for the RX01 > that they'd be willing to part with? > I have a working RX01 on my 8/e system (both drives good, amazingly) but the > bezel was missing when I got it. > It'd be nice to have, as it looks rather dumpy in the rack with the rest of the system. Pity you're not in the UK. I have a spare RX02 that I don't really need... I don't want to strip it for parts but I could be convince to part with the complete thing. -tony From chris at groessler.org Mon Apr 24 14:18:36 2017 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 21:18:36 +0200 Subject: Tektronix 8560 floppies In-Reply-To: <1e0de7c5-a5ec-bb32-ffc8-03c122f3664a@bitsavers.org> References: <475e0b13-c4a8-8dd1-89c3-864537b3c64e@groessler.org> <1e0de7c5-a5ec-bb32-ffc8-03c122f3664a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <22c425a6-cce6-ab32-2b11-1046a9cfb9ca@groessler.org> On 04/24/17 17:54, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > that reminds me I wanted to see if the a.out format was compatible > with stock V7 > and if the tools would run on an ordinary PDP-11 Unix V7 system. If you want I can send you some sample execuables to test... I wanted to test the same but I first have to set-up V7 (on an emulator)... regards, chris From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 24 16:40:04 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 09:40:04 +1200 Subject: What would cause a regular pattern of bad sectors? In-Reply-To: <4607bd62-3290-17b4-e49a-bb88d60b6c8e@sydex.com> References: <47929D69-9FB8-454C-B0DA-79820B7E010C@comcast.net> <4607bd62-3290-17b4-e49a-bb88d60b6c8e@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > > My guess on the symptoms described is a scratch or spill. Sometimes > these floppies can be brought back by a simple cleaning of the cookie. > > --Chuck > > Guys, you were on the right track. I looked carefully the disk surface while rotating it. It's subtle but there is a radial kink/distortion in the platter. You can only really see it if you have strong light, like that from a bulb, reflecting off the media surface. As you rotate the disk at one point this reflection distorts and one can see a kink of sorts. What would have caused this? Something hot resting against it? Just old age or poor quality (disk is no that old...from 2003)? Is there anyway to straighten out such distortions. It doesn't seem to be a loose/flaky media issue so I'm thinking washing the platter isn't likely to help. yes? Or would the warm water help? Terry (Tez) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 24 17:53:17 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 15:53:17 -0700 Subject: What would cause a regular pattern of bad sectors? In-Reply-To: References: <47929D69-9FB8-454C-B0DA-79820B7E010C@comcast.net> <4607bd62-3290-17b4-e49a-bb88d60b6c8e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <86228568-97f6-9676-2a63-4a6eb73bace7@sydex.com> On 04/24/2017 02:40 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Guys, you were on the right track. I looked carefully the disk > surface while rotating it. It's subtle but there is a radial > kink/distortion in the platter. You can only really see it if you > have strong light, like that from a bulb, reflecting off the media > surface. As you rotate the disk at one point this reflection > distorts and one can see a kink of sorts. > > What would have caused this? Something hot resting against it? > Just old age or poor quality (disk is no that old...from 2003)? > > Is there anyway to straighten out such distortions. It doesn't seem > to be a loose/flaky media issue so I'm thinking washing the platter > isn't likely to help. yes? Or would the warm water help? If this were an 8" or 5.25" disk,I'd recommend that you try a few different drive makes. There were substantial differences in technology back then (often resulting in lawsuits for infringement). For example, a Tandon 5.25" drive tends to use heavier loading and "iron" the disk more than, say, a Mitsubishi one, which used a gimbaled head and much lower loading. Basically the idea was a tradeoff between "following" the disk waves or flattening them out. But for 3.5" drives, I don't have a clue--perhaps coating with some cyclomethicone might result in some surface-tension type adhesion and make the floppy easier to read. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 24 18:01:36 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:01:36 -0600 Subject: Bitsavers size In-Reply-To: References: <20170423155336.GA32760@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <8a6b65c2-a7af-a966-222b-5f2e0f88654b@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/24/2017 5:30 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On 23 April 2017 at 16:53, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk > wrote: >> Or a single LTO3 cartridge, with room to spare ;-) > > So what we need to do is calculate the bandwidth of a truck full of > LTO-3 tapes hurtling down a highway, surely? Trucks only come with bales of hay,babes and a few dusty 8 tracks. :) From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Apr 24 14:19:08 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 21:19:08 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning Message-ID: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> Hi My PDP-8/A is up for restoration. More specifically and 8A100 according to it's ID plate. It is in overall "ok" shape but oh so dusty. I'd like to give it a good cleaning so I'm tearing it down. And I'm looking for suggestion to cleaning the backplane and regulator board. I'm considering putting the Omnibus part under warm water and perhaps a bit of mild detergent. Should I get distilled water or will tap do? The water here is not very "hard" The regulator backplane has a relay and a button which will never dry out if I soak it... Thanks in advance, Pontus. From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Apr 25 02:55:00 2017 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 00:55:00 -0700 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) In-Reply-To: <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net> Message-ID: On 4/24/17, 4:55 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Peter Cetinski via cctalk" wrote: > >> On Apr 24, 2017, at 7:37 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: >> >>> >>> Just picked up a TRS-80 Model 12, and it boot to the "insert disk >>> prompt" ... Yay! >>> >>> Jim >> >> >> You can find the MC68000 board set (you?ll need a CPU board and at >>least one memory board) on eBay quite often. In most cases, it will be >>the Model 16 6Mhz board which will allow you to run TRS-XENIX 1.x. If >>you?re lucky, you?ll find the Model 6000 8Mhz board which will allow you >>to run Xenix 3.2. Finding a card cage is the hard part. These are >>extremely rare but do pop up from time to time. There is another option >>called the Hans-02 and 03 adapters created by Hans Rietveld which is a >>modern replacement for the card cage. You can find them on Ian Mavric?s >>site. >> >> http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/Hans/ >> > >Correction: You?d want the Hans 03 and 04 > >In regards to the keyboard, the later Model 12/16B/6000 keyboards are >hard to find. The Model II keyboard is more common. You can easily use >the Model II/16 keyboard with these by creating a new 5pin DIN cable and >switching a few of the keyboard input pins and swapping the gender of the >connector. In the ?spare? sectors on the xenix 3.2 media there is information on hooking a Tandy 2000? Keyboard to a 16/6000 I forget which disk it is on :( was told about it years ago by the xenix specialist at a RS computer center store From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 25 02:45:02 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 01:45:02 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/24/2017 1:19 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctech wrote: > Hi > > My PDP-8/A is up for restoration. More specifically and 8A100 according > to it's ID plate. It is in overall "ok" shape but oh so dusty. > > I'd like to give it a good cleaning so I'm tearing it down. And I'm > looking for suggestion to cleaning the backplane and regulator board. > > I'm considering putting the Omnibus part under warm water and perhaps a > bit of mild detergent. Should I get distilled water or will tap do? The > water here is not very "hard" > > The regulator backplane has a relay and a button which will never dry > out if I soak it... > > Thanks in advance, > Pontus. > > I would go for distilled water, tap water could have chlorine it it. Ben. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Apr 25 02:51:41 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 00:51:41 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 4/25/2017 12:45 AM, ben via cctech wrote: >> > I would go for distilled water, tap water could have chlorine it it. > Ben. Good point. Also with care, I've seen distilled water, then alcohol rinse (not rubbing, but pure of some sort), then air dry. This is used on optics to get rid of water spotting. The alcohol will flush out water that you could normally only wait out for evaporation, and rapidly evaporates itself w/o residue main problem are fumes and flames, so care must be taken when using it. thanks jim From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Apr 25 03:29:00 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 10:29:00 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20170425082859.GS18105@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 12:51:41AM -0700, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/25/2017 12:45 AM, ben via cctech wrote: > >> > >I would go for distilled water, tap water could have chlorine it it. > >Ben. I should hope not! Water comes from a well in my backyard. Perhaps I could take a short cut and use the water from the clothes dryer. (Or just get a gallon of distilled water. > Good point. Also with care, I've seen distilled water, then alcohol rinse > (not > rubbing, but pure of some sort), then air dry. This is used on optics to > get > rid of water spotting. The alcohol will flush out water that you could > normally > only wait out for evaporation, and rapidly evaporates itself w/o residue > > main problem are fumes and flames, so care must be taken when using > it. > If I can get hold of it easily I might try it. Thank you, Pontus. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Apr 25 03:29:00 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 10:29:00 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20170425082859.GS18105@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 12:51:41AM -0700, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/25/2017 12:45 AM, ben via cctech wrote: > >> > >I would go for distilled water, tap water could have chlorine it it. > >Ben. I should hope not! Water comes from a well in my backyard. Perhaps I could take a short cut and use the water from the clothes dryer. (Or just get a gallon of distilled water. > Good point. Also with care, I've seen distilled water, then alcohol rinse > (not > rubbing, but pure of some sort), then air dry. This is used on optics to > get > rid of water spotting. The alcohol will flush out water that you could > normally > only wait out for evaporation, and rapidly evaporates itself w/o residue > > main problem are fumes and flames, so care must be taken when using > it. > If I can get hold of it easily I might try it. Thank you, Pontus. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 25 03:39:24 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 09:39:24 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <42007d6a-2184-cdd1-29cc-5023bc3390cd@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/04/2017 08:51, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > On 4/25/2017 12:45 AM, ben via cctech wrote: >> I would go for distilled water, tap water could have chlorine it >> it. Not enough to do any harm if you dry it sensibly; besides, it's more likely to be choramines these days, not chlorine as such. I'd be more concerned about calcium and magnesium salts if you live in a particularly hard-water area, but, again, just dry it sensibly. I've done several backplanes with tap water, just blowing the excess water out with compressed air (but preferably from an oil-free compressor tank). I'd start with a vacuum cleaner assisted by a small paintbrush, then wash in water with a little mild detergent. Tap water if you live in a soft-water area, otherwise cheap distilled or deionised water, or from a dehumidifier. Finally, blow dry. > Good point. Also with care, I've seen distilled water, then alcohol > rinse (not rubbing, but pure of some sort), then air dry. This is > used on optics to get rid of water spotting. The alcohol will flush > out water that you could normally only wait out for evaporation, and > rapidly evaporates itself w/o residue "Little residue" would be more accurate, and some of that residue will be water (look up "azeotrope") - plus you need a lot of alcohol for something the size of a PDP-8 backplane. Blow dry, even after an alcohol rinse. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Apr 25 04:08:13 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 02:08:13 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <42007d6a-2184-cdd1-29cc-5023bc3390cd@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> <42007d6a-2184-cdd1-29cc-5023bc3390cd@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <6a788c99-853e-0c05-7cc5-497281c51260@jwsss.com> On 4/25/2017 1:39 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >> > > "Little residue" would be more accurate, and some of that residue will > be water (look up "azeotrope") - plus you need a lot of alcohol for > something the size of a PDP-8 backplane. Blow dry, even after an > alcohol rinse. In the process of cleaning optics indeed you need air and other means to do that, you are right. But in this case I'm suggesting the alcohol as a way to displace water out of internal parts. The spotting or such is not much to worry about in the cleaning job on a computer part. But in optics the process is much longer and elaborate, but still needs the ventilation to be sure you don't have a problem with fumes. We had a booboo in assembly that required cleaning and we no longer had freon cleaner we wanted to use in that quantity, so we went with the water / alcohol process. A switch had defective sticky seals on it and they had all gotten waterlogged. Vendor claimed they would survive water process wash and they were wrong. Paid us quite a bit in credit for messing up a couple hundred boards before we caught the problem. Solution was to rewash in water then alcohol rinse. thanks Jim From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 25 05:06:45 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 11:06:45 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <6a788c99-853e-0c05-7cc5-497281c51260@jwsss.com> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> <42007d6a-2184-cdd1-29cc-5023bc3390cd@dunnington.plus.com> <6a788c99-853e-0c05-7cc5-497281c51260@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 25/04/2017 10:08, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/25/2017 1:39 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >> >> "Little residue" would be more accurate, and some of that residue >> will be water (look up "azeotrope") - plus you need a lot of >> alcohol for something the size of a PDP-8 backplane. Blow dry, >> even after an alcohol rinse. I should perhaps have mentioned that the idea is to flush the remaining water or alcohol out by blowing, not evaporate it like your hairdresser would :-) And you ought to use dry air, ideally - most compressors have water in their air. > In the process of cleaning optics indeed you need air and other > means to do that, you are right. But in this case I'm suggesting > the alcohol as a way to displace water out of internal parts. The > spotting or such is not much to worry about in the cleaning job on a > computer part. Except those spotty residues are usually hygroscopic, which can lead to corrosion later. > But in optics the process is much longer and elaborate, but still > needs the ventilation to be sure you don't have a problem with > fumes. Sure. Outside of electronics, my experience is in a chemistry lab needing clean dry glassware. The process would go something like this: - preliminary clean with whatever is best, often water and a little detergent/surfactant, then drain most off - rinse with distilled water - rinse with ethanol to flush out remaining water, then drain - rinse with acetone to remove the alcohol/water residue - air dry In photography, on the other hand, the final rinse would just be water - tap water if not too hard - with a tiny amount of a wetting agent (eg detergent) in it. For a backplane or some PCBs I'd compromise, but closer to the photographic example than the chem lab. In fact I've done that with my PDP-8s, rinsing the backplanes then blowing out most of the residue. > We had a booboo in assembly that required cleaning and we no longer > had freon cleaner we wanted to use in that quantity, so we went with > the water / alcohol process. A switch had defective sticky seals on > it and they had all gotten waterlogged. Vendor claimed they would > survive water process wash and they were wrong. Paid us quite a bit > in credit for messing up a couple hundred boards before we caught > the problem. Ouch! -- Pete Pete Turnbull From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 25 07:57:00 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 08:57:00 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> <42007d6a-2184-cdd1-29cc-5023bc3390cd@dunnington.plus.com> <6a788c99-853e-0c05-7cc5-497281c51260@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <2B3A0587-6A3A-4219-830F-87DF96FFDA69@comcast.net> > On Apr 25, 2017, at 6:06 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > > On 25/04/2017 10:08, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 4/25/2017 1:39 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> "Little residue" would be more accurate, and some of that residue >>> will be water (look up "azeotrope") - plus you need a lot of >>> alcohol for something the size of a PDP-8 backplane. Blow dry, >>> even after an alcohol rinse. > > I should perhaps have mentioned that the idea is to flush the remaining > water or alcohol out by blowing, not evaporate it like your hairdresser > would :-) And you ought to use dry air, ideally - most compressors have water in their air. Worse yet, a lot of compressors have oil in their air. You can attached a dryer/filter to the compressor outlet to block that. Compressors intended for air brush use tend to be set up that way, and/or use a mechanism that doesn't use oil (such as a diaphragm pump). paul From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 05:00:58 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 06:00:58 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <96f0d7f7-78bc-3d1e-562c-6238a00d1695@gmail.com> On 04/25/2017 03:45 AM, ben via cctech wrote: > On 4/24/2017 1:19 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctech wrote: >> Hi >> >> My PDP-8/A is up for restoration. More specifically and 8A100 according >> to it's ID plate. It is in overall "ok" shape but oh so dusty. >> >> I'd like to give it a good cleaning so I'm tearing it down. And I'm >> looking for suggestion to cleaning the backplane and regulator board. >> Dishwasher. Its what I do. >> I'm considering putting the Omnibus part under warm water and perhaps a >> bit of mild detergent. Should I get distilled water or will tap do? The >> water here is not very "hard" >> Tap will do since you will rinse with alcohol. >> The regulator backplane has a relay and a button which will never dry >> out if I soak it... >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Pontus. >> >> > I would go for distilled water, tap water could have chlorine it it. The amount of chlorine (or its analog) is not a enough to be a factor. If you can drink it and its not pool water. Allison > Ben. > From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Apr 25 08:28:38 2017 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 13:28:38 +0000 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ area) In-Reply-To: References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net>, Message-ID: On 4/25/2017 at 3:55AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > In the ?spare? sectors on the xenix 3.2 media there is information on > hooking a Tandy 2000? Keyboard to a 16/6000 I forget which disk it is on > :( was told about it years ago by the xenix specialist at a RS computer > center store It's not that easy. It's a chicken and egg thing. You have to have the original keyboard to copy in the new z80ctl and related files, then wire up the 2000 keyboard. Here are the instructions, I have the install software as well as the instructions for changing the 68000 to a 68010 if anyone is interested. README starts here ================= UNSUPPORTED SUPPORT FOR TANDY 2000 SERIES KEYBOARDS ON THE TANDY 16B/6000 Z80 Control System Version 3(121) and later 18-Oct-87 710185 The instructions and files enclosed in this area allow owners of Tandy Model 16A, 16B and Tandy 6000 systems to use the keyboard that is made for the Tandy 2000/1000 family as the console keyboard. On most systems, word processors and other applications are typically difficult to use because of the limited functionality of the standard 16B/6000 keyboard. These changes will allow you to use the console to its full potential. It will become a workstation people will want to use. THE DISCLAIMER At this time, these modifications ARE NOT officially supported or approved by Tandy Corporation or Radio Shack. The contents of this tar file are provided "as is", without any warranty of any kind. It is entirely the responsibility of the user to determine whether these files should be used with the users' system. The user shall make any adjustments or corrections necessary to use these materials. By providing these materials, it should be understood that there is no commitment of any kind to provide these materials in a supported form in the future. When reporting problems with your system or obtaining service, make sure the problem persists when running with the standard release of the operating system and the standard keyboard. Problems that occur when using the items in this tar archive may not be responded to and may not be corrected. The modifications have been heavily used on the systems used by the XENIX System Programmers and other systems with few problems. (Some application software does not like the code sequences generated by the arrow keys.) Since no hardware modifications need to be made to the existing keyboard or computer, you can easily switch to the stock 3.2.0 operating system if you suspect a problem, or when taking your system in for service. HOW IT WORKS Both the original 16B/6000 and the 2000 keyboard use a serial transmission method, where the data is sent to the computer via a data and clock signal. The 16B/6000 keyboard produces 8 bit ASCII characters, and sets the high bit on some characters to increase the number of codes. The 2000 keyboard produces 8 bit scan codes, generating one code when the key is pressed and one when it is released. Most keys also repeat the "press" scan code if they are held down long enough. It is up to software to translate the scan code into a character, and to keep track of the SHIFT, CTRL and ALT keys, changing the generated character accordingly. Because the electrical interfaces are almost identical, the only thing that prevents the 2000 keyboard from being used is the extra software that is required to generate ASCII from the scan codes. Starting with z80ctl 3(122), which is included in this area, the software necessary to operate both the 16A/16B/6000 and the 2000 keyboards is included. To make XENIX easier to use with the new keyboard and keep compatibility with the old keyboards is a complicated task. MAKING IT ALL WORK REQUIRES SOME HELP When you reach the Xenix Boot> prompt, a decision is made as to what type of keyboard you have. At this point, the first key pressed is of a small group, and the system uses this to determine what type of keyboard you have. If you press some other key as the first key, the system may ignore that key or select the wrong keyboard type. This is because some scan codes look exactly like normal ASCII characters, and the boot track can make a mistake and select the wrong keyboard type. If this happens, press RESET and try again, this time avoiding pressing one of the "collision" keys. The keys that the system "expects" as the first key struck are: d h x z If you have autobooting enabled, then it is possible that no key will be pressed when the system reboots. When this happens, the boot code first looks to see if z80ctl left the keyboard type in memory from the last time it was running. (This is always true after a shutdown, and usually true after a crash.) If there has been a power failure or some other program has been run (like diskutil), this information may not be present. In that case, the boot track selects the default keyboard type by looking on the hard disk. This value is set to Model 16B/6000 by default, and can be changed using Patch to select the 2000 keyboard. (Information on the one byte patch is provided below.) CONVERTING YOUR SYSTEM There are three major steps below. You will need to obtain the keyboard, perform one of the two modifications listed, and install the software. Obtaining the 2000 keyboard The first step is to obtain either a 1000 or 2000 keyboard. If you have a 2000 or 1000 system, you may want to get a new keyboard anyway as the modifications you may have to make may prevent it from working with the 2000 or 1000 computer without removing them. The part number for the 2000 keyboard is: AXX-0225 KEYBOARD, M2000 W/CASE&CBL $183.93/EA However, this part has recently been placed on the "No Longer Available" list, and may not be obtainable. It may be possible to obtain the equivalent by ordering the individual parts as follows: AXX-0220 90 KEY KEYBOARD $100.77/EA AW-3203 KBD CABLE (2000) $7.80/EA AZ-7114 KEYLID BOTTOM $8.67/EA AZ-7121 KEYLID TOP (BEZEL) $4.52/EA AHD-2773 SCREW 6x7/16 PPH (8 required) $1.00/EA If you are unable to obtain all of these parts, then you can obtain a 1000 keyboard and either replace the connector or the entire cable with the cable used on the 2000 keyboard. Here is the 1000 keyboard part number: AXX-0235 KEYBOARD ASSY, MOD 1000 CMPLTE $117.53/EA You may now either replace the connector with a DIN-5 Cat. No. 274-003 $1.59/EA, or you can replace the entire cable and connector by ordering the 2000 keyboard cable: AW-3203 KBD CABLE (2000) $7.80/EA All the prices are subject to change and availability, so contact your local store or National Parts for more information. Once you have obtained the equivalent of a 2000 keyboard and cable, follow the instructions below. Be sure to use the instructions that are meant for the type of machine you own. Instructions for connecting the 2000 keyboard to a Model 16A. If you have a Model 16A (identified by having the keyboard cable plug into a plug built into the keyboard), then no modification to the keyboard is required at all. You must construct a gender-converting cable. This can be built using a piece of five conductor wire and two female DIN-5 connectors. The connectors are available from Radio Shack, Cat No. 274-006, and were $1.59 ea. in the 1987 catalog. When wiring the cable, simply connect pin 1 to pin 1, 2 to 2, etc. The pins are marked, but are sometimes hard to see except under a strong light. After you complete the assembly, you should use an ohmmeter to confirm there are no shorts and that the wiring is correct. Now skip down to the software installation instructions. Instructions for modifying the 2000 keyboard for the 16B and 6000. 1. Place the 2000 keyboard on a cloth with the keys facing downwards. Lower the tilt-feet if they are raised. Then place a piece of scotch tape across each leg and the back to prevent it from moving. 2. Remove the nine screws on the bottom. Now, hold the keyboard with two hands and turn it over, making sure none of the screws are lost. Once this is done, gently lift the top half of the cover and set it aside. If the tilt-feet assemblies slip out of position, push them back into place now. 3. Locate the AMP connector on the keyboard where the coiled cable connects to the keyboard PCB. Unplug this connector. On some units a glob of glue was used to keep the connector from slipping off. This must be removed before the connector can be disconnected. 4. Hold the plug and write down the color of the wires and which position they have in the connector. A typical arrangement is: +------------------+ <---plug end away from you ! 1 x 3 4 5 6 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! <---side with slits facing up ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ^ ! ^ ^ ^ ^ ! <---locking hook (in slit) ! ! +------------------+ B N G Y R B NOTE: SOME CONNECTORS WERE l o r e e a ASSEMBLED UPSIDE-DOWN AND a e l d r ARE PLUGGED IN UPSIDE-DOWN. c W e l e IF YOUR WIRING IS EXACTLY k i n o BACKWARDS OF THE DRAWING, r w MAKE SURE YOUR CONVERTED e HOOKUP IS ALSO BACKWARDS. 5. By using the tip of a fine screwdriver or an X-acto knife, you can remove the pins from the connector shell by pressing down on the locking hook on each contact. These can be accessed through the slits as shown in the illustration above. By pressing down (with mild force) on the metal at the end of the slit, the wire (and the pin) for that pin can be pulled out of the connector shell. It may require a third hand for this step; one to hold the connector, one to push the pin and one to pull on the wire. 6. You will reposition the wires and re-insert them into the connector. If your wires had the same colors as the example, your re-worked connector should look like this: +------------------+ <---plug end away from you ! 1 x 3 4 5 6 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! <---side with slits facing up ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ^ ! ^ ^ ^ ^ ! <---locking hook (in slit) ! ! +------------------+ B N Y B G R l o e a r e a l r e d c W l e e k i o n r w e When re-inserting the pins into the connector shell, make sure the locking hook is facing towards the slit. Once inserted, the pin should lock in place and a gentle tug should not dislodge it. If the pin will not stay in the connector, then spread the halves of the pin apart slightly and re-insert it. It is highly important to get the re-wiring correct. +5 and Ground are present in the cable and if +5 is shorted to ground, a fuse inside the 16B/6000 will blow, requiring disassembly of the 16B/6000 computer to fix. If your wires do not match the above color code, it is suggested that you write the names of the colors listed in the first illustration on pieces of tape and attach those names to the wires as shown in the illustration, IGNORING the actual colors of the wires. Then re-wire the connector based on the labels. Leave the labels on after finishing your work so that you can undo your work if you ever want to use the keyboard on a 2000 or 1000 system in the future. 7. Re-assemble the keyboard by placing the top half over the keyboard. Then turn the keyboard upside down, and re-insert the screws. Make sure the tilt-legs are still lined up properly. Installing the software Before hooking up your modified keyboard, you need to install the software to utilize it. The enclosed install script will install the files and make the necessary changes to /etc/termcap. Once you have shut XENIX down, leave the computer turned on and plug in the 2000 keyboard. Immediately press the CAPS key. If the light does not come on instantly, turn the computer off at once or unplug the keyboard. Failure of the light to illuminate indicates one of the modifications is incorrect. Plug your old keyboard back in and turn the computer back on. Press the CAPS key and confirm that the light comes on. If it does not, then you have blown the keyboard fuse inside the 16B/6000 and it must be replaced before any console keyboard will function. The computer must be disassembled to reach the inline fuse holder, located near the keyboard plug. If the CAPS light did operate on the 2000 keyboard, press RESET and at the Xenix Boot> prompt, press . The word 'xenix' should appear. When XENIX starts running, an asterisk should appear in the top right corner of the screen. This indicates that the system thinks you have a 2000 keyboard. If you did not allow the script to change the /etc/ttytype file, you should do that now manually so it reflect the keyboard you plan to use. Additional information At this time, diskutil does not know about the 2000 keyboard. Your existing 16/6000 keyboard must be used when using diskutil. This should not be a serious problem, since floppies and disk cartridges can be formatted while running XENIX. You can switch back and forth between keys while at the Xenix Boot> prompt as long as you press RESET after connecting the keyboard you are about to use. In the case of unattended power failures, some systems are configured to autoboot. In this case, there will be no information in RAM on what keyboard is present. In this event, the boot track examines a location on the disk. You can use the patch utility to indicate what type of keyboard to use when the boot track is unsure. The byte in /dev/hdbt0 at offset 0x10 controls what keyboard will be used. A zero indicates the 16B/6000 keyboard should be assumed. A 0x01 indicates the 2000 keyboard should be assumed. The files in this directory may be used by any system that is using XENIX 3.2.0. Earlier versions will not boot successfully. The development system is not a requirement for using these files. Although there are several international versions of the 1000 and 2000 keyboards, they are not supported by this software and may not function. This software is intended for use with the 90-key (USA) keyboard. Because the 16/6000 hardware does not reset the keyboard microprocessor when RESET is pressed, the status of the CAPS and NUM LOCK keys will be unknown to XENIX when it boots. XENIX always assumes that CAPS LOCK and NUM LOCK are NOT lit when XENIX boots. If that is not the case, you will have to press the CAPS or NUM LOCK key once to get XENIX in sync with the keyboard. Keyboard Codes The following is a table of the codes produced when keys are pressed using the 2000/1000-style keyboard under XENIX. The majority of the codes are generally what would be received in a MS-DOS environment and should make the conversion of software easier. On "Extended" character codes, a 0xff is prefixed to the code. (In MS-DOS systems, the prefix byte was 0x00.) The table is shown assuming NUM LOCK is ON and CAPS LOCK is OFF. Key Unshifted Shifted Ctrl Alt 0x1b (^[) 0x1b (^[) 0x1b (^[) 0xff8b <1> 0x31 (1) 0x21 (!) 0x7c (|) 0xff78 <2> 0x32 (2) 0x40 (@) 0x00 0xff79 <3> 0x33 (3) 0x23 (#) 0x1d 0xff7a <4> 0x34 (4) 0x24 ($) 0x1e 0xff7b <5> 0x35 (5) 0x25 (%) 0x1f 0xff7c <6> 0x36 (6) 0x5e (^) 0x7e (~) 0xff7d <7> 0x37 (7) 0x26 (&) 0x1c 0xff7e <8> 0x38 (8) 0x2a (*) ---- 0xff7f <9> 0x39 (9) 0x28 (() 0x5c (\) 0xff80 <0> 0x30 (0) 0x29 ()) 0x7c (|) 0xff81 <-> 0x2d (-) 0x5f (_) 0x1f 0xff82 <=> 0x3d (=) 0x2b (+) ---- 0xff83 0x08 0x08 0x7f (delete) 0xff8c 0x09 0xff0f 0xff8d 0xff8e ** 0x71 (q) 0x51 (Q) 0x11 0xff10 ** 0x77 (w) 0x57 (W) 0x17 0xff11 ** 0x65 (e) 0x45 (E) 0x05 0xff12 ** 0x72 (r) 0x52 (R) 0x12 0xff13 ** 0x74 (t) 0x54 (T) 0x14 0xff14 ** 0x79 (y) 0x59 (Y) 0x19 0xff15 ** 0x75 (u) 0x55 (U) 0x15 0xff16 ** 0x69 (i) 0x49 (I) 0x09 0xff17 ** 0x6f (o) 0x4f (O) 0x0f 0xff18

** 0x70 (p) 0x50 (P) 0x10 0xff19 <[> 0x5b ([) 0x7b ({) 0x1b ---- <]> 0x5d (]) 0x7d (}) 0x1d ---- 0x0d 0x0d 0x0a 0xff8f ** 0x61 (a) 0x41 (A) 0x01 0xff1e ** 0x73 (s) 0x53 (S) 0x13 0xff1f ** 0x64 (d) 0x44 (D) 0x04 0xff20 ** 0x66 (f) 0x46 (F) 0x06 0xff21 ** 0x67 (g) 0x47 (G) 0x07 0xff22 ** 0x68 (h) 0x48 (H) 0x08 0xff23 ** 0x6a (j) 0x4a (J) 0x0a 0xff24 ** 0x6b (k) 0x4b (K) 0x0b 0xff25 ** 0x6c (l) 0x4c (L) 0x0c 0xff26 <;> 0x3b (;) 0x3a (:) 0x7e (~) ---- <'> 0x27 (') 0x22 (") 0x60 (`) ---- 0xff48 0xff85 0x1e 0xff91 0xff4b 0xff87 0xff73 0xff92 ** 0x7a (z) 0x5a (Z) 0x1a 0xff2c ** 0x78 (x) 0x58 (X) 0x18 0xff2d ** 0x63 (c) 0x43 (C) 0x03 0xff2e ** 0x76 (v) 0x56 (V) 0x16 0xff2f ** 0x62 (b) 0x42 (B) 0x02 0xff30 ** 0x6e (n) 0x4e (N) 0x0e 0xff31 ** 0x6d (m) 0x4d (M) 0x0d 0xff32 <,> 0x2c (,) 0x3c (<) ---- ---- <.> 0x2e (.) 0x3e (>) ---- ++ ---- 0x2f (/) 0x3f (?) 0x5c (\) ---- ---- ---- 0xff72 0xff46 0x20 ( ) 0x20 ( ) 0x20 ( ) 0xff20 0xff3b 0xff54 0xff5e 0xff68 0xff3c 0xff55 0xff5f 0xff69 0xff3d 0xff56 0xff60 0xff6a 0xff3e 0xff57 0xff61 0xff6b 0xff3f 0xff58 0xff62 0xff6c 0xff40 0xff59 0xff63 0xff6d 0xff41 0xff5a 0xff64 0xff6e 0xff42 0xff5b 0xff65 0xff6f 0xff43 0xff5c 0xff66 0xff70 0xff44 0xff5d 0xff67 0xff71 Alternately generates a 0x13 (^S) and 0x11 (^Q) {7} + 0x37 (7) 0x5c (\) 0xff93 * {8} + 0x38 (8) 0x7e (~) 0xff94 * {9} + 0x39 (9) 0xff49 0xff84 * 0xff50 0xff86 0xff96 0xff97 {4} + 0x34 (4) 0x7c (|) 0xff95 * {5} + 0x35 (5) 0x35 (5) ---- {6} + 0x36 (6) 0x36 (6) ---- * 0xff4d 0xff88 0xff7f ---- {1} + 0x31 (1) 0xff4f 0xff75 * {2} + 0x32 (2) 0x60 (`) 0xff9a * {3} + 0x33 (3) 0xff51 0xff76 * {0} + 0x30 (0) 0xff9b 0xff9c * 0x2d (-) 0xff53 0xff9d 0xff9e 0x03 0x03 0x03 0xff03 0x2b (+) 0xff52 0xff9f 0xffa0 {.} 0x2e (.) 0xffa1 0xffa4 0xffa5 {Enter} 0x0d 0x0d 0x0a 0xff8f 0xff47 0xff4a 0xff77 0xffa6 0xff98 0xffa2 0xffac 0xffb6 0xff99 0xffa3 0xffad 0xffb7 ---- No code is produced for this keystroke sequence * While the ALT key is held down, any keys that are pressed on the numeric keypad are saved. When the ALT key is released, the resulting decimal number is converted to binary and passed to XENIX as a single 8 bit character. If more than three keys are pressed, only the last three are used. The most significant digit is entered first. If a number larger than 255 is entered, it will be output as modulo-256. To produce multiple characters, the ALT key must be released, then pressed and a new sequence can be entered. ** When CAPS LOCK is on, the codes listed in the Shifted column will be produced even when unshifted. + When NUM LOCK is OFF, the codes listed in the Unshifted and Shifted columns are exchanged. ++ This keystroke toggles the screen saver on and off. XENIX will not see a character when this key is pressed. When the screen saver is enabled, the screen will go dark at once as a confirmation. The next key pressed (ANY key including SHIFT and CTRL) will turn the display back on. From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 08:51:23 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 09:51:23 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <2B3A0587-6A3A-4219-830F-87DF96FFDA69@comcast.net> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> <42007d6a-2184-cdd1-29cc-5023bc3390cd@dunnington.plus.com> <6a788c99-853e-0c05-7cc5-497281c51260@jwsss.com> <2B3A0587-6A3A-4219-830F-87DF96FFDA69@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 4/25/17 8:57 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Apr 25, 2017, at 6:06 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 25/04/2017 10:08, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >>> On 4/25/2017 1:39 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >>>> "Little residue" would be more accurate, and some of that residue >>>> will be water (look up "azeotrope") - plus you need a lot of >>>> alcohol for something the size of a PDP-8 backplane. Blow dry, >>>> even after an alcohol rinse. >> I should perhaps have mentioned that the idea is to flush the remaining >> water or alcohol out by blowing, not evaporate it like your hairdresser >> would :-) And you ought to use dry air, ideally - most compressors have water in their air. > Worse yet, a lot of compressors have oil in their air. You can attached a dryer/filter to the compressor outlet to block that. Compressors intended for air brush use tend to be set up that way, and/or use a mechanism that doesn't use oil (such as a diaphragm pump). A water trap/oil filter is a trivial thing to add. Most come with a regulator which is handy. However, Generally the water and oil content is low to start with unless the compressor is seriously worn or your taking air form the bottom of the tank. Normally its good practice to drain the tank of water anyway. I've painted a few things in my day like racing cars. The alternate is a canister of nitrogen gas or cans of "air". The quantity needed is not all that great. Even after all that I'd still dry it with a little heat (oven at 180F or a clean empty container in the sun. I've used the dishwasher (sans caustic dish detergent) for cleaning then in the oven to dry for radios, computer boards, analog boards, and assemblies that can trap water. Things that turn or move like switches (open wafer for example) need to have contact treatment and bearing lubrication afterwards. Allison > paul > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 09:01:49 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 10:01:49 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> <42007d6a-2184-cdd1-29cc-5023bc3390cd@dunnington.plus.com> <6a788c99-853e-0c05-7cc5-497281c51260@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 4/25/17 6:06 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctech wrote: > On 25/04/2017 10:08, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 4/25/2017 1:39 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> "Little residue" would be more accurate, and some of that residue >>> will be water (look up "azeotrope") - plus you need a lot of >>> alcohol for something the size of a PDP-8 backplane. Blow dry, >>> even after an alcohol rinse. > > I should perhaps have mentioned that the idea is to flush the remaining > water or alcohol out by blowing, not evaporate it like your hairdresser > would :-) And you ought to use dry air, ideally - most compressors > have water in their air. > >> In the process of cleaning optics indeed you need air and other >> means to do that, you are right. But in this case I'm suggesting >> the alcohol as a way to displace water out of internal parts. The >> spotting or such is not much to worry about in the cleaning job on a >> computer part. > > Except those spotty residues are usually hygroscopic, which can lead to > corrosion later. > >> But in optics the process is much longer and elaborate, but still >> needs the ventilation to be sure you don't have a problem with >> fumes. > > Sure. Outside of electronics, my experience is in a chemistry lab > needing clean dry glassware. The process would go something like this: > > - preliminary clean with whatever is best, often water and a little > detergent/surfactant, then drain most off > - rinse with distilled water > - rinse with ethanol to flush out remaining water, then drain > - rinse with acetone to remove the alcohol/water residue > - air dry > Considering your also trying to remove possible hazardous material and leave a noncontaminating surface its overkill to the max for a backplane. > In photography, on the other hand, the final rinse would just be water > - tap water if not too hard - with a tiny amount of a wetting agent > (eg detergent) in it. > Again you are striving to neutralize the chemistry used. > For a backplane or some PCBs I'd compromise, but closer to the > photographic example than the chem lab. In fact I've done that with > my PDP-8s, rinsing the backplanes then blowing out most of the residue. > Considering a fan(s) has been blowing dust and who knows what else at it for years cleaning is good and any residue is nothing compared to the crud that was formerly there. In the pre-freon days the standard cleaner (when they did!) was a modified dish washer. The usual mod was reshape the racks to hold the boards and lower the heater temperature used for drying. A week rarely went by that someone had open it mid cycle to see if it was done. >> We had a booboo in assembly that required cleaning and we no longer >> had freon cleaner we wanted to use in that quantity, so we went with >> the water / alcohol process. A switch had defective sticky seals on >> it and they had all gotten waterlogged. Vendor claimed they would >> survive water process wash and they were wrong. Paid us quite a bit >> in credit for messing up a couple hundred boards before we caught >> the problem. > > Ouch! Plastics and elastic materials require more care for compatibility. Water is usually the safest but, none can remain. Allison From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 25 09:55:36 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 14:55:36 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> <42007d6a-2184-cdd1-29cc-5023bc3390cd@dunnington.plus.com> <6a788c99-853e-0c05-7cc5-497281c51260@jwsss.com> <2B3A0587-6A3A-4219-830F-87DF96FFDA69@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:51 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > Even after all that I'd still dry it with a little heat (oven at 180F or a clean empty > container in the sun. Irrelevant for backplanes, but for circuit boards, would any UV-erasable PROMs want to be checked to ensure their caps/covers are still in place before exposure to sunlight? From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 25 10:03:37 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 10:03:37 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <58FF6549.1000304@pico-systems.com> On 04/24/2017 02:19 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > Hi > > My PDP-8/A is up for restoration. More specifically and 8A100 according > to it's ID plate. It is in overall "ok" shape but oh so dusty. > > I'd like to give it a good cleaning so I'm tearing it down. And I'm > looking for suggestion to cleaning the backplane and regulator board. > > I'm considering putting the Omnibus part under warm water and perhaps a > bit of mild detergent. Should I get distilled water or will tap do? The > water here is not very "hard" I'd just vacuum the card slots and wiring side with a shop vac with a crevice tool. I really would not get it wet. If you do this, vacuum all the water off and then dry in an oven at 100F or so for a day. You can clean the card edge fingers with an alcohol-soaked paper towel. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 25 11:06:28 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 09:06:28 -0700 Subject: Remex Tape Reader - Pre-power up advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <974f11dc-7c31-c436-ff41-58ceb5f50ef1@bitsavers.org> On 4/16/17 11:28 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Hi guys, > > I recently impulse-bought a paper tape reader from eBay, a Remex > RRS6500BE1/660/DRB/U901 Tucker had a copy of the RRS6500 series manual A scan is now up at http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/remex/112670-077B_RRS6500_Reader-Spooler_1977.pdf From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 25 11:34:00 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 17:34:00 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> <42007d6a-2184-cdd1-29cc-5023bc3390cd@dunnington.plus.com> <6a788c99-853e-0c05-7cc5-497281c51260@jwsss.com> <2B3A0587-6A3A-4219-830F-87DF96FFDA69@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9382bdea-c136-66b0-2a57-7d6b8bcca756@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/04/2017 15:55, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:51 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > >> Even after all that I'd still dry it with a little heat (oven at 180F or a clean empty >> container in the sun. > > Irrelevant for backplanes, but for circuit boards, would any UV-erasable PROMs want to be checked to ensure their caps/covers are still in place before exposure to sunlight? Definitely. It takes a while, but even behind window glass (which is barely transparent to short wavelength UV) EPROMs can eventually lose their content. It happened to a friend who had a machine with no top cover, on a desk under a window, after about 5 years. But in direct sunlight, certainly just hours, and possibly just several tens of minutes if you're unlucky. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From js at cimmeri.com Tue Apr 25 11:46:03 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 11:46:03 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <9382bdea-c136-66b0-2a57-7d6b8bcca756@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> <42007d6a-2184-cdd1-29cc-5023bc3390cd@dunnington.plus.com> <6a788c99-853e-0c05-7cc5-497281c51260@jwsss.com> <2B3A0587-6A3A-4219-830F-87DF96FFDA69@comcast.net> <9382bdea-c136-66b0-2a57-7d6b8bcca756@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <58FF7D4B.3000603@cimmeri.com> On 4/25/2017 11:34 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 25/04/2017 15:55, Tapley, Mark via > cctalk wrote: >> On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:51 AM, allison >> via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> Even after all that I'd still dry it >>> with a little heat (oven at 180F or >>> a clean empty >>> container in the sun. >> >> Irrelevant for backplanes, but for >> circuit boards, would any UV-erasable >> PROMs want to be checked to ensure >> their caps/covers are still in place >> before exposure to sunlight? > > Definitely. It takes a while, but > even behind window glass (which is > barely transparent to short wavelength > UV) EPROMs can eventually lose their > content. It happened to a friend who > had a machine with no top cover, on a > desk under a window, after about 5 > years. But in direct sunlight, > certainly just hours, and possibly > just several tens of minutes if you're > unlucky. > Is the same true even if they have either a paper stick or a foil sticker over the eprom window? I would *guess* that stickers slow or stop the process altogether. - J. From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 11:49:19 2017 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 09:49:19 -0700 Subject: Remex Tape Reader - Pre-power up advice? In-Reply-To: <974f11dc-7c31-c436-ff41-58ceb5f50ef1@bitsavers.org> References: <974f11dc-7c31-c436-ff41-58ceb5f50ef1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Aaaaa this is perfect, thank you! I had found a manual for another model a while back and was going to ask if anyone on this list had the right one. Much appreciated. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/16/17 11:28 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi guys, > > > > I recently impulse-bought a paper tape reader from eBay, a Remex > > RRS6500BE1/660/DRB/U901 > > Tucker had a copy of the RRS6500 series manual > A scan is now up at http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/remex/112670- > 077B_RRS6500_Reader-Spooler_1977.pdf > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 25 11:53:20 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 12:53:20 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <58FF7D4B.3000603@cimmeri.com> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> <42007d6a-2184-cdd1-29cc-5023bc3390cd@dunnington.plus.com> <6a788c99-853e-0c05-7cc5-497281c51260@jwsss.com> <2B3A0587-6A3A-4219-830F-87DF96FFDA69@comcast.net> <9382bdea-c136-66b0-2a57-7d6b8bcca756@dunnington.plus.com> <58FF7D4B.3000603@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 25, 2017, at 12:46 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 4/25/2017 11:34 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >> On 25/04/2017 15:55, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: >>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:51 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> Even after all that I'd still dry it with a little heat (oven at 180F or a clean empty >>>> container in the sun. >>> >>> Irrelevant for backplanes, but for circuit boards, would any UV-erasable PROMs want to be checked to ensure their caps/covers are still in place before exposure to sunlight? >> >> Definitely. It takes a while, but even behind window glass (which is barely transparent to short wavelength UV) EPROMs can eventually lose their content. It happened to a friend who had a machine with no top cover, on a desk under a window, after about 5 years. But in direct sunlight, certainly just hours, and possibly just several tens of minutes if you're unlucky. > > Is the same true even if they have either a paper stick or a foil sticker over the eprom window? I would *guess* that stickers slow or stop the process altogether. That's what those stickers are for. Foil is probably pretty effective. Paper, not so much, because it's rather translucent. paul From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 12:39:52 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 13:39:52 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <58FF6549.1000304@pico-systems.com> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <58FF6549.1000304@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20170425133952.6abbb487c9029e8b03e9541b@gmail.com> > I'd just vacuum the card slots and wiring side with a shop > vac with a crevice tool. I really would not get it wet. If > you do this, vacuum all the water off and then dry in an > oven at 100F or so for a day. You can clean the card edge > fingers with an alcohol-soaked paper towel. Yeah, if you can avoid washing it, so much the better. Don't be too afraid of getting it wet, though -- I've washed many Unibus and QBus backplanes. I use dish soap and hot tap water. I used to dry them in the kitchen oven, but now I've got a hot air drying rack, which I believe was originally sold for drying litho plates. If you have to use the oven, leave the door ajar and set it at the lowest setting. Thanks, Jonathan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 25 12:58:21 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 18:58:21 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <58FF7D4B.3000603@cimmeri.com> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <91c4d59b-87da-f434-8668-b0f2dda692db@jetnet.ab.ca> <42007d6a-2184-cdd1-29cc-5023bc3390cd@dunnington.plus.com> <6a788c99-853e-0c05-7cc5-497281c51260@jwsss.com> <2B3A0587-6A3A-4219-830F-87DF96FFDA69@comcast.net> <9382bdea-c136-66b0-2a57-7d6b8bcca756@dunnington.plus.com> <58FF7D4B.3000603@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <799e9684-fa41-318c-3ee2-03c83fc127bb@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/04/2017 17:46, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/25/2017 11:34 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >> Definitely. It takes a while, but even behind window glass (which is >> barely transparent to short wavelength UV) EPROMs can eventually lose >> their content. It happened to a friend who had a machine with no top >> cover, on a desk under a window, after about 5 years. But in direct >> sunlight, certainly just hours, and possibly just several tens of >> minutes if you're unlucky. > Is the same true even if they have either a paper stick or a foil > sticker over the eprom window? I would *guess* that stickers slow or > stop the process altogether. Of course, that's their purpose - foil is impervious to UV, black plastic tape and floppy disk write-protect tabs (that's write-enable tabs for some of us) are good, though paper is better than nothing. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 15:46:55 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 15:46:55 -0500 Subject: Ford-Higgins Powerframe QBUS Docs Message-ID: I have scanned the manuals that came with my Ford-Higgins Powerframe machine. It is a QBUS PDP-11/73 machine in what looks a whole lot like a DEC BA23 enclosure. Not sure if it's a clone or a licensed rebadge. The CPU board is DEC, the memory is a Clearpoint P/N 3325/300 (size unknown) and the disk controller is a Dilog DQ215 P/N 33214701 (SMD?). It has a combo fixed-disk/cart drive that their docs call an RC40. That looks like a DEC part # but doesn't seem to be anything they made. There's very little out there about them (I found a 1992 Usenet post from someone asking "what is this thing??") so I wanted to fast-track these docs online. http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/FordHiggins And some photos: https://goo.gl/photos/DiXaiiMKXNorGqzVA The machine has been given to a friend in search of a QBUS project, so I don't have any more pics at the moment. -j From hachti at hachti.de Tue Apr 25 10:42:00 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 17:42:00 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <70aaa047-132d-a4ad-b3b6-21e614510299@hachti.de> Hi Pontus, I reply to the original post, but I have read many funny comments. None of them I considered harmful. > My PDP-8/A is up for restoration. More specifically and 8A100 according > to it's ID plate. It is in overall "ok" shape but oh so dusty. > I'd like to give it a good cleaning so I'm tearing it down. And I'm > looking for suggestion to cleaning the backplane and regulator board. Most important: Get away any possible residues of foam (don't know if there's foam in an 8/a, but 8/e has). > I'm considering putting the Omnibus part under warm water and perhaps a > bit of mild detergent. Wash it, rub it, scrub it, dry it! I see no problem. > Should I get distilled water or will tap do? The > water here is not very "hard" All those distilled water/alcohol/etc. tricks are not very relevant for your backplane. Dry it well. Compressed air can help. Ignore the compressor/oil discussion on that kind of application. The complicated rinsing and drying gets more interesting with high impedance electronics. I have an ISDN phone that I used in the tub too much :-) It started to think eventually that all buttons are pressed the same time. To get that going again, I needed a sequence of vinegar -> hot water -> distilled water -> alcohol. > The regulator backplane has a relay and a button which will never dry > out if I soak it... I would pull the relay before washing. And never put relays into an ultrasonic cleaner - even when they are sealed and approved to be washed! One sad thing about washing minicomputer pieces is that you most probably lose or at least damage any original paper labels. Kind regards Philipp From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 14:13:26 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 12:13:26 -0700 Subject: SWP ATR8000 CP/M Co-processor and Percom Data AT-88 Disk Drive for Atari 8-bit Message-ID: I am selling a ATR8000 and Percom Data AT-88 disk drive for Atari 8-bit systems. Please see full details here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57382-SWP-ATR8000-and-PerCom-Data-AT-88-disk-drive-for-Atari-8-bit&p=457522#post457522 Thanks! Sellam From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 14:25:44 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 12:25:44 -0700 Subject: Current catalog of items for sale Message-ID: Here is a master list of the items I currently have listed for sale (asking price in parenthesis). Please inquire directly to me via e-mail for more information. Fulcrum IMSAI 8080 clone system ($1,200) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?51883-Fulcrum-IMSAI-8080-clone-system&p=407422&highlight=#post407422 Commodore PET 8032 Brand New in Original Box w/manuals and accessories ($250) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55679-Commodore-PET-8032-Brand-New-in-Original-Box-w-manuals-and-accessories&p=442257&highlight=#post442257 Computer & Electronics Magazines: Byte, Creative Computing, Pop. Electronics, More... http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56035-Computer-amp-Electronics-Magazines-Byte-Creative-Computing-Pop-Electronics-More&p=445626&highlight=#post445626 Franklin ACE 100 ($650) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56187-Franklin-ACE-100&p=447060&highlight=#post447060 SouthWest Technical Products Corporation (SWTPC) 6800 ($950) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56190-SouthWest-Technical-Products-Corporation-(SWTPC)-6800&p=447078&highlight=#post447078 Ampro Little Board/P5x and chassis ($350) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56809-Ampro-Little-Board-P5x-and-chassis&p=452705&highlight=#post452705 Documation D150 punched card reader ($100) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56810-Documation-D150-punched-card-reader&p=452707&highlight=#post452707 Microsoft Windows 1.0 in original retail packaging, complete ($600) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56814-Microsoft-Windows-1-0-in-original-retail-packaging-complete&p=452735&highlight=#post452735 STM Pied Piper Portable Computer ($250) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56872-STM-Pied-Piper-Portable-Computer&p=453120&highlight=#post453120 Apple //c Prototype ($5,000) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55676-Apple-c-Prototype-for-sale&p=442246&highlight=#post442246 Sphere 1 - earliest(?) Personal Computer with integrated keyboard and display ($8,000) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55677-Sphere-1-early-Personal-Computer-with-integrated-keyboard-and-display&p=442247&highlight=#post442247 Unicom 141p - First commercial product with Intel 4004 microprocessor ($7,500) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55678-Unicom-141p-First-commercial-product-with-Intel-4004-microprocessor&p=442248&highlight=#post442248 All prices are negotiable. I'm listing new items weekly and post them to the Vintage Computer Federation Forum. Feel free to inquire directly about specific items I may have, including hardware, software, documentation, books, magazines, etc. Thanks! Sellam From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 25 18:38:40 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 16:38:40 -0700 Subject: Ford-Higgins Powerframe QBUS Docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/25/17 1:46 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > It has a combo fixed-disk/cart drive that their docs > call an RC40. Amcodyne 7110 Arapahoe competitor to the CDC 9457 Lark From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 18:52:07 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 18:52:07 -0500 Subject: Ford-Higgins Powerframe QBUS Docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 6:38 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 4/25/17 1:46 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: >> It has a combo fixed-disk/cart drive that their docs >> call an RC40. > > Amcodyne 7110 Arapahoe Interesting! I've never heard of that manufacturer. Do you know anything else about the Ford-Higgins machines? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 25 19:04:25 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 17:04:25 -0700 Subject: Ford-Higgins Powerframe QBUS Docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <606bdec8-d1d4-3dc6-06f2-2a8dfa9dd7cf@bitsavers.org> nope. wonder if the 68k board was from Integrated Solutions On 4/25/17 4:52 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 6:38 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> On 4/25/17 1:46 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: >>> It has a combo fixed-disk/cart drive that their docs >>> call an RC40. >> >> Amcodyne 7110 Arapahoe > > Interesting! I've never heard of that manufacturer. > > Do you know anything else about the Ford-Higgins machines? > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 25 19:08:34 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 00:08:34 +0000 Subject: Ford-Higgins Powerframe QBUS Docs In-Reply-To: <606bdec8-d1d4-3dc6-06f2-2a8dfa9dd7cf@bitsavers.org> References: , <606bdec8-d1d4-3dc6-06f2-2a8dfa9dd7cf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:04 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Ford-Higgins Powerframe QBUS Docs nope. wonder if the 68k board was from Integrated Solutions __________________________________ Hey, I got two of them. :-) bill From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 20:03:17 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 21:03:17 -0400 Subject: Attaching DEC Handles, the Right Way Message-ID: <20170425210317.9ef07b09ecaa8847d826e2c2@gmail.com> I'm sure most of you DEC hackers have replaced a broken DEC handle or put handles on a protoboard, and did what I've done in the past: use 4-40 screws and nuts, or pop rivets. Well, I finally came across the right tool for the job, an Indestro tubular rivet set! I cut the head off of a rivet on an old Sundstrand CNC control board that was getting scrapped anyway and discovered they're 1/8" hollow brass rivets, but that a M3 x 5mm is close enough. You can buy the M3 rivets online for cheap, I paid $6 USD for 200 rivets, shipped. Here's the writeup: http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/04/25/installing-dec-handles Thanks, Jonathan From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 25 21:28:29 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 21:28:29 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> Message-ID: Been trying to Google things, but not having a lot of luck. I understand both are white case, both have slimline drives, 12 had no card cage, I think I read somewhere that the 16 came with 68K std (no Z80?), and 12 had KB conn on case, 16B had KB conn on KB. Beyond that, though, would love more information. Lots of info on 2 and 6000, but not so much on the intermediate machines. Jim From pete at pski.net Tue Apr 25 21:47:16 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:47:16 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> Message-ID: <2C2323FD-2C22-492F-BBC6-B922C4B8EAD5@pski.net> The Model 16 was introduced in 1982 and was an upgraded Model II with the addition of an MC68000 subsystem that allowed you to run 16bit OSes, like TRSDOS-16, CPM-68K and TRSXENIX 1.x. On all Tandy 68K machines and operating systems the z80 ran in concert with the 68k. The z80 handled all I/O as the 68k subsystem did not have direct access to any I/O ports. The 2 CPUs would talk through shared memory and interrupts. The Model 16 also had the first appearance of the TM-848 thin line drives, white case and superior green screen CRT. The Model 12 was introduced in 1983 as the next version of the Model II. It was considered the base Tandy business system. The case dimensions were somewhat larger than the previous II/16. It had a simplified architecture in that the entire Z80 system was now on a single main board instead of the 4 separate cards of the Model II. A base Model 12 has a lot of empty space inside as it was meant to be optionally upgraded with the card cage if you needed a hard drive or 68K functionality. It also had the new lower profile keyboard with reverse gender connector compared to the II/16. The 16B released around 1984 is essentially a factory upgraded Model 12 with the card cage and the 6Mhz MC68000 subsystem consisting of a CPU card and 1 or more 16 bit memory cards. The 16B for a time was the best selling Unix workstation in the world. The 6000 released in 1985 was a slightly enhanced 16B with the biggest difference being the upgrade to an 8Mhz MC68000. This system allowed you to run XENIX 3.x and address up to 1MB of RAM. > On Apr 25, 2017, at 10:28 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > > Been trying to Google things, but not having a lot of luck. I understand both are white case, both have slimline drives, 12 had no card cage, I think I read somewhere that the 16 came with 68K std (no Z80?), and 12 had KB conn on case, 16B had KB conn on KB. Beyond that, though, would love more information. > > Lots of info on 2 and 6000, but not so much on the intermediate machines. > > Jim > > From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 25 21:52:07 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 21:52:07 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: <2C2323FD-2C22-492F-BBC6-B922C4B8EAD5@pski.net> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> <2C2323FD-2C22-492F-BBC6-B922C4B8EAD5@pski.net> Message-ID: <74e75130-f877-dfc9-19ea-d57e6ca81e5e@jbrain.com> On 4/25/2017 9:47 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > The 16B released around 1984 is essentially a factory upgraded Model 12 with the card cage and the 6Mhz MC68000 subsystem consisting of a CPU card and 1 or more 16 bit memory cards. The 16B for a time was the best selling Unix workstation in the world. So, the 16B has the KB conn on the machine, but the KB? And, the 16B has the Z80 motherboard, witht eh 68K in the cage? > > The 6000 released in 1985 was a slightly enhanced 16B with the biggest difference being the upgrade to an 8Mhz MC68000. This system allowed you to run XENIX 3.x and address up to 1MB of RAM. I thought the 16B could also do 1MB of RAM? Can the 6000 still run the Z80 Oses (like TRSDOS II and such)? (I assume so, since you noted that all units of this entire line used a Z80 for IO) Jim From pete at pski.net Tue Apr 25 21:56:32 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:56:32 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: <74e75130-f877-dfc9-19ea-d57e6ca81e5e@jbrain.com> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> <2C2323FD-2C22-492F-BBC6-B922C4B8EAD5@pski.net> <74e75130-f877-dfc9-19ea-d57e6ca81e5e@jbrain.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 25, 2017, at 10:52 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > > So, the 16B has the KB conn on the machine, but the KB? > And, the 16B has the Z80 motherboard, witht eh 68K in the cage? 16B keyboard is the same as the 12. Cord is on the KB with a male connector. Female is on the machine. 16B has the same main board as the 12 with 68K in the cage. Notice I use "main board" as technically the cage board was referred to as the motherboard in these machines. >> >> The 6000 released in 1985 was a slightly enhanced 16B with the biggest difference being the upgrade to an 8Mhz MC68000. This system allowed you to run XENIX 3.x and address up to 1MB of RAM. > I thought the 16B could also do 1MB of RAM? 16B was factory maxed at 768k but I?m pretty sure 1MB is fine. > > Can the 6000 still run the Z80 Oses (like TRSDOS II and such)? (I assume so, since you noted that all units of this entire line used a Z80 for IO) Yes, the 6000 can run all previous software. > Jim > From alan at alanlee.org Tue Apr 25 22:46:44 2017 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 23:46:44 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> <2C2323FD-2C22-492F-BBC6-B922C4B8EAD5@pski.net> <74e75130-f877-dfc9-19ea-d57e6ca81e5e@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <9d3786cf9edc0305ded28b24ac7d74cd@alanlee.org> Jim, I'll have a 16B at VCF-SE this weekend. You take as close a look as you want. It has a single slim 8" drive, an internal 15MB hard disk, and an external 5 MB hard disk. It also has the 68K card stack with 768KB RAM. I don't have a keyboard for it though. I bought a 16 keyboard thinking it would work at the time; then hit the cabling problem. Does anyone know if the 16 keyboard circuitry will work with a 16B if I created a custom cable? -Alan On 2017-04-25 22:56, Peter Cetinski via cctalk wrote: >> On Apr 25, 2017, at 10:52 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> >> So, the 16B has the KB conn on the machine, but the KB? >> And, the 16B has the Z80 motherboard, witht eh 68K in the cage? > > 16B keyboard is the same as the 12. Cord is on the KB with a male connector. Female is on the machine. > 16B has the same main board as the 12 with 68K in the cage. Notice I use "main board" as technically the cage board was referred to as the motherboard in these machines. > > The 6000 released in 1985 was a slightly enhanced 16B with the biggest difference being the upgrade to an 8Mhz MC68000. This system allowed you to run XENIX 3.x and address up to 1MB of RAM. I thought the 16B could also do 1MB of RAM? 16B was factory maxed at 768k but I'm pretty sure 1MB is fine. > Can the 6000 still run the Z80 Oses (like TRSDOS II and such)? (I assume so, since you noted that all units of this entire line used a Z80 for IO) Yes, the 6000 can run all previous software. > Jim From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Apr 26 00:24:26 2017 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:24:26 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> Message-ID: On 4/25/17, 7:28 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Jim Brain via cctalk" wrote: >Been trying to Google things, but not having a lot of luck. I >understand both are white case, both have slimline drives, 12 had no >card cage, I think I read somewhere that the 16 came with 68K std (no >Z80?), and 12 had KB conn on case, 16B had KB conn on KB. Beyond that, >though, would love more information. > >Lots of info on 2 and 6000, but not so much on the intermediate machines. > >Jim > > > Some 12?s came with the card cage in it, it depended on luck mostly. From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Apr 26 00:26:28 2017 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:26:28 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: <74e75130-f877-dfc9-19ea-d57e6ca81e5e@jbrain.com> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> <2C2323FD-2C22-492F-BBC6-B922C4B8EAD5@pski.net> <74e75130-f877-dfc9-19ea-d57e6ca81e5e@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 4/25/17, 7:52 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Jim Brain via cctalk" wrote: >On 4/25/2017 9:47 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: >> The 16B released around 1984 is essentially a factory upgraded Model 12 >>with the card cage and the 6Mhz MC68000 subsystem consisting of a CPU >>card and 1 or more 16 bit memory cards. The 16B for a time was the best >>selling Unix workstation in the world. >So, the 16B has the KB conn on the machine, but the KB? >And, the 16B has the Z80 motherboard, witht eh 68K in the cage? >> >> The 6000 released in 1985 was a slightly enhanced 16B with the biggest >>difference being the upgrade to an 8Mhz MC68000. This system allowed >>you to run XENIX 3.x and address up to 1MB of RAM. >I thought the 16B could also do 1MB of RAM? > >Can the 6000 still run the Z80 Oses (like TRSDOS II and such)? (I >assume so, since you noted that all units of this entire line used a Z80 >for IO) > >Jim > Yes they can, plus there were a couple versions of cp/m 68k for them plus software to use the 68k plus ram as a ramdisk From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Apr 26 00:28:43 2017 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:28:43 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: <9d3786cf9edc0305ded28b24ac7d74cd@alanlee.org> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> <2C2323FD-2C22-492F-BBC6-B922C4B8EAD5@pski.net> <74e75130-f877-dfc9-19ea-d57e6ca81e5e@jbrain.com> <9d3786cf9edc0305ded28b24ac7d74cd@alanlee.org> Message-ID: On 4/25/17, 8:46 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Alan Hightower via cctalk" wrote: > > >Jim, I'll have a 16B at VCF-SE this weekend. You take as close a look as >you want. It has a single slim 8" drive, an internal 15MB hard disk, and >an external 5 MB hard disk. It also has the 68K card stack with 768KB >RAM. I don't have a keyboard for it though. I bought a 16 keyboard >thinking it would work at the time; then hit the cabling problem. > >Does anyone know if the 16 keyboard circuitry will work with a 16B if I >created a custom cable? > >-Alan It-should- but it?s been a long long time since I?ve had my hands on a 16 and 6000. From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Apr 26 00:32:04 2017 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:32:04 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: <74e75130-f877-dfc9-19ea-d57e6ca81e5e@jbrain.com> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> <2C2323FD-2C22-492F-BBC6-B922C4B8EAD5@pski.net> <74e75130-f877-dfc9-19ea-d57e6ca81e5e@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 4/25/17, 7:52 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Jim Brain via cctalk" wrote: >On 4/25/2017 9:47 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: >> The 16B released around 1984 is essentially a factory upgraded Model 12 >>with the card cage and the 6Mhz MC68000 subsystem consisting of a CPU >>card and 1 or more 16 bit memory cards. The 16B for a time was the best >>selling Unix workstation in the world. >So, the 16B has the KB conn on the machine, but the KB? >And, the 16B has the Z80 motherboard, witht eh 68K in the cage? >> >> The 6000 released in 1985 was a slightly enhanced 16B with the biggest >>difference being the upgrade to an 8Mhz MC68000. This system allowed >>you to run XENIX 3.x and address up to 1MB of RAM. >I thought the 16B could also do 1MB of RAM? > >Can the 6000 still run the Z80 Oses (like TRSDOS II and such)? (I >assume so, since you noted that all units of this entire line used a Z80 >for IO) > >Jim Also it was possible to pull the 64k chips from the ram board and put 256k chips in, it required new PALs on the ram board at least, and possibly a wire run for the extra address line. Nanook at eskimo north used to run on 16?s and 6000?s and used to upgrade the ram boards. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Apr 26 00:59:13 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 01:59:13 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B Message-ID: <19ac43.4f84e92f.46319131@aol.com> In a message dated 4/25/2017 10:24:42 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 4/25/17, 7:28 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Jim Brain via cctalk" wrote: >Been trying to Google things, but not having a lot of luck. I >understand both are white case, both have slimline drives, 12 had no >card cage, I think I read somewhere that the 16 came with 68K std (no >Z80?), and 12 had KB conn on case, 16B had KB conn on KB. Beyond that, >though, would love more information. > >Lots of info on 2 and 6000, but not so much on the intermediate machines. > >Jim > > > Some 12?s came with the card cage in it, it depended on luck mostly. So what I never really looked at closely and warehoused could be 12 or 16... I know not an model 2 as it was not silver like the trs-80 model 1 in the collected here on display. Ed# From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 26 01:58:34 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 08:58:34 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/a cleaning In-Reply-To: <70aaa047-132d-a4ad-b3b6-21e614510299@hachti.de> References: <20170424191904.GQ18105@Update.UU.SE> <70aaa047-132d-a4ad-b3b6-21e614510299@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20170426065833.GT18105@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 05:42:00PM +0200, Philipp Hachtmann via cctech wrote: > Hi Pontus, > > One sad thing about washing minicomputer pieces is that you most probably > lose or at least damage any original paper labels. > Yes :/ Some of the fall of anyway since the adhesive has lost it's adhesiveness. Thanks for your insights. /P From pete at pski.net Wed Apr 26 06:06:08 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 07:06:08 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: <9d3786cf9edc0305ded28b24ac7d74cd@alanlee.org> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> <2C2323FD-2C22-492F-BBC6-B922C4B8EAD5@pski.net> <74e75130-f877-dfc9-19ea-d57e6ca81e5e@jbrain.com> <9d3786cf9edc0305ded28b24ac7d74cd@alanlee.org> Message-ID: > On Apr 25, 2017, at 11:46 PM, Alan Hightower via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone know if the 16 keyboard circuitry will work with a 16B if I > created a custom cable? Yes, it can work with a wire rearrangement and gender swap on the DIN. See this thread for details. http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?48159-Model-II-Keyboard-Differences-Further-Analysis&highlight=Keyboard From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Apr 26 06:51:24 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 11:51:24 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: <2C2323FD-2C22-492F-BBC6-B922C4B8EAD5@pski.net> References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> , <2C2323FD-2C22-492F-BBC6-B922C4B8EAD5@pski.net> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Peter Cetinski via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:47 PM To: Jim Brain Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B The Model 16 was introduced in 1982 and was an upgraded Model II with the addition of an MC68000 subsystem that allowed you to run 16bit OSes, like TRSDOS-16, CPM-68K and TRSXENIX 1.x. On all Tandy 68K machines and operating systems the z80 ran in concert with the 68k. The z80 handled all I/O as the 68k subsystem did not have direct access to any I/O ports. The 2 CPUs would talk through shared memory and interrupts. The Model 16 also had the first appearance of the TM-848 thin line drives, white case and superior green screen CRT. The Model 12 was introduced in 1983 as the next version of the Model II. It was considered the base Tandy business system. The case dimensions were somewhat larger than the previous II/16. It had a simplified architecture in that the entire Z80 system was now on a single main board instead of the 4 separate cards of the Model II. A base Model 12 has a lot of empty space inside as it was meant to be optionally upgraded with the card cage if you needed a hard drive or 68K functionality. It also had the new lower profile keyboard with reverse gender connector compared to the II/16. The 16B released around 1984 is essentially a factory upgraded Model 12 with the card cage and the 6Mhz MC68000 subsystem consisting of a CPU card and 1 or more 16 bit memory cards. The 16B for a time was the best selling Unix workstation in the world. The 6000 released in 1985 was a slightly enhanced 16B with the biggest difference being the upgrade to an 8Mhz MC68000. This system allowed you to run XENIX 3.x and address up to 1MB of RAM. _____________________________________ You missed the addition of cards with three serial ports each and multiple ones could be installed limited only by the space in the card cage. I ran a BBS connected to the Sytek Serial Network boxes at USMA for a while as a user interface to local and USENET groups. It was fun. Oh yeah, My later employer got their first Model 16 in 1981. Documentatioin was all xeroxes and the Xenix documentation refered heavily to the Intel architecture. :-) It went home with me when they stopped pushing them to the government as it went on the GSA List and they no longer nbeeded a contractor to sell them one. Don't remember who got it, but it might be in Pittsburgh now. bill From spedraja at ono.com Wed Apr 26 07:30:14 2017 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 14:30:14 +0200 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> <2C2323FD-2C22-492F-BBC6-B922C4B8EAD5@pski.net> Message-ID: I can only say that I'm always looking for Unix-like systems. I've been trying to get a Tandy 6000 or TRS-16 for years. Maybe someday... Regards Sergio 2017-04-26 13:51 GMT+02:00 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk : > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Peter Cetinski > via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] > Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:47 PM > To: Jim Brain > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B > > The Model 16 was introduced in 1982 and was an upgraded Model II with the > addition of an MC68000 subsystem that allowed you to run 16bit OSes, like > TRSDOS-16, CPM-68K and TRSXENIX 1.x. On all Tandy 68K machines and > operating systems the z80 ran in concert with the 68k. The z80 handled all > I/O as the 68k subsystem did not have direct access to any I/O ports. The > 2 CPUs would talk through shared memory and interrupts. The Model 16 also > had the first appearance of the TM-848 thin line drives, white case and > superior green screen CRT. > > The Model 12 was introduced in 1983 as the next version of the Model II. > It was considered the base Tandy business system. The case dimensions were > somewhat larger than the previous II/16. It had a simplified architecture > in that the entire Z80 system was now on a single main board instead of the > 4 separate cards of the Model II. A base Model 12 has a lot of empty space > inside as it was meant to be optionally upgraded with the card cage if you > needed a hard drive or 68K functionality. It also had the new lower > profile keyboard with reverse gender connector compared to the II/16. > > The 16B released around 1984 is essentially a factory upgraded Model 12 > with the card cage and the 6Mhz MC68000 subsystem consisting of a CPU card > and 1 or more 16 bit memory cards. The 16B for a time was the best selling > Unix workstation in the world. > > The 6000 released in 1985 was a slightly enhanced 16B with the biggest > difference being the upgrade to an 8Mhz MC68000. This system allowed you > to run XENIX 3.x and address up to 1MB of RAM. > > _____________________________________ > > You missed the addition of cards with three serial ports each and multiple > ones > could be installed limited only by the space in the card cage. I ran a > BBS connected > to the Sytek Serial Network boxes at USMA for a while as a user interface > to local > and USENET groups. It was fun. Oh yeah, My later employer got their > first Model 16 > in 1981. Documentatioin was all xeroxes and the Xenix documentation > refered heavily > to the Intel architecture. :-) It went home with me when they stopped > pushing them > to the government as it went on the GSA List and they no longer nbeeded a > contractor > to sell them one. Don't remember who got it, but it might be in > Pittsburgh now. > > bill > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 08:51:57 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:51:57 -0400 Subject: Attaching DEC Handles, the Right Way In-Reply-To: <20170425210317.9ef07b09ecaa8847d826e2c2@gmail.com> References: <20170425210317.9ef07b09ecaa8847d826e2c2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Systems Glitch via cctalk wrote: > I'm sure most of you DEC hackers have replaced a broken DEC handle or put handles on a protoboard... I finally came across the right tool for the job, an Indestro tubular rivet set! When I worked for a place that made Unibus and Qbus boards, we bought bulk metal quad and hex handle assemblies from DEC, no number stamped on them. We used a floor-stand foot-powered Stimpson rivet setter with a lower die that held the rivet and an upper die that set it. I saved the Stimpson machine when the company closed. It's one of these: http://www.grommetmachinery.com/stimpson-479-machine.html They make quick work of setting rivets but overkill for hobby use. We shipped over 1200 Unibus and Qbus boards, so we set well over 10,000 rivets on it. I probably did at least 1,000. > they're 1/8" hollow brass rivets, but that a M3 x 5mm is close enough. You can buy the M3 rivets online for cheap, I paid $6 USD for 200 rivets, shipped. Good to know. I still have a bag of our old stock, but if I run out... -ethan From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Apr 26 10:06:53 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 08:06:53 -0700 Subject: Attaching DEC Handles, the Right Way In-Reply-To: References: <20170425210317.9ef07b09ecaa8847d826e2c2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c0f0e96-6b34-0275-8d41-cfef002e9f0e@jwsss.com> On 4/26/2017 6:51 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Systems Glitch via cctalk > wrote: >> I'm sure most of you DEC hackers have replaced a broken DEC handle or put handles on a protoboard... I finally came across the right tool for the job, an Indestro tubular rivet set! > When I worked for a place that made Unibus and Qbus boards, we bought > bulk metal quad and hex handle assemblies from DEC, no number stamped > on them. We used a floor-stand foot-powered Stimpson rivet setter > with a lower die that held the rivet and an upper die that set it. I > saved the Stimpson machine when the company closed. > > It's one of these: > http://www.grommetmachinery.com/stimpson-479-machine.html They make > quick work of setting rivets but overkill for hobby use. We shipped > over 1200 Unibus and Qbus boards, so we set well over 10,000 rivets on > it. I probably did at least 1,000. > >> they're 1/8" hollow brass rivets, but that a M3 x 5mm is close enough. You can buy the M3 rivets online for cheap, I paid $6 USD for 200 rivets, shipped. > Good to know. I still have a bag of our old stock, but if I run out... > > -ethan Stu Phillips, a friend of ours did the insertion of metal metal Southco extractor handles on our boards for the Microdata 1600. He probably had a machine, as the Southco levers were riveted onto our board thru holes in the corner and levered the board in and out of the card cage. He made a line of the ears for the DEC manufacturers here in Orange County, and I've seen his SPC or Stu Phillips or Phillips company logo on may such products. That business came from him owning an injection molding machine and someone asking him to make the handles. His original business was doing jobs like the riviting and other assembly jobs around Orange county. thanks Jim From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Apr 26 09:52:56 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 07:52:56 -0700 Subject: Looking to thin out -- Mac SE/30s Message-ID: I've got a few too many oldies. Ran across these guys last week https://goo.gl/photos/xjiS5CuMUUF5rKtd9 About 15 SE/30s *** But I don't have a lot of time to pack for shipping. *** Anyone near Portland Oregon who has the time for trade ? Suggestions/Ideas ? Would like to keep just one w/Ethernet. -pete From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 26 11:47:48 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:47:48 -0700 Subject: Attaching DEC Handles, the Right Way In-Reply-To: <1c0f0e96-6b34-0275-8d41-cfef002e9f0e@jwsss.com> References: <20170425210317.9ef07b09ecaa8847d826e2c2@gmail.com> <1c0f0e96-6b34-0275-8d41-cfef002e9f0e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <7ec121d6-2ab3-e388-ed43-dabb5956888e@bitsavers.org> On 4/26/17 8:06 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > Stu Phillips, a friend of ours did the insertion of metal metal Southco extractor handles on our boards for the > Microdata 1600. He probably had a machine, as the Southco levers were riveted onto our board thru holes in the corner > and levered the board in and out of the card cage. I think these are the same style used on the DG Nova and the Alto. They have a problem that they bend if you aren't paying attention to card alignment. Also came upon this http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/bivar/pdf/page26.pdf modern source for DEC style plastic handles? From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Apr 26 12:02:19 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:02:19 -0700 Subject: Attaching DEC Handles, the Right Way In-Reply-To: <7ec121d6-2ab3-e388-ed43-dabb5956888e@bitsavers.org> References: <20170425210317.9ef07b09ecaa8847d826e2c2@gmail.com> <1c0f0e96-6b34-0275-8d41-cfef002e9f0e@jwsss.com> <7ec121d6-2ab3-e388-ed43-dabb5956888e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9da079a7-7fca-3f21-468d-c3fdfd157fd2@jwsss.com> On 4/26/2017 9:47 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/26/17 8:06 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > >> Stu Phillips, a friend of ours did the insertion of metal metal Southco extractor handles on our boards for the >> Microdata 1600. He probably had a machine, as the Southco levers were riveted onto our board thru holes in the corner >> and levered the board in and out of the card cage. This shows the Southco extractor. The Nova DG cards I have have them as well. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/microdata/1600/PCB_Photos/A20001043_Data_Bot.jpg Data General Nova 3 cpu card showing the same extractor. https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zSDB_FtBUZc/WC6t5e2XkYI/AAAAAAAEF8Q/f4aH_E65ypsn8BqmpXFv75xeTXuGFaRhQCLcB/s1600/2016-11-17%2B22.29.12.jpg If the above link is fubar, the posting is here in this blog post: http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/11/data-general-nova-3.html The fastners were rivited thru the board, and with particularly stiff backplanes, the corner of the boards could also break off as well as the bowing of the boards Al refers to. The boards bend up or down in the center of the card as you pull very hard on each edge. Eventually either your fingers bleed, or the card pops out of the connector at the far end. > I think these are the same style used on the DG Nova and the Alto. They have a problem that they bend if you aren't > paying attention to card alignment. > > Also came upon this > > http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/bivar/pdf/page26.pdf > > modern source for DEC style plastic handles? > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Apr 26 12:22:25 2017 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:22:25 +0000 Subject: Ford-Higgins Powerframe QBUS Docs Message-ID: Wow, I thought I had seen every obscure third-party Q-bus and Unibus chassis and backplane through the 70's/80's/90's but I had never heard of "Ford Higgins Power Frame" until today. It's a very stylized case obviously built around that disk drive but otherwise reminds me a lot of the DEC grey office-side boxes of the 80's. The only thing is that the ribs on the Ford-Higgins run up and down but the plastic ribs on the DEC stuff usually ran left to right so it's not obvious they were copying anything from DEC at the time, it seems likely the "Power Frame" predated the BA23/BA123/vaxstation styling. A little corporate research shows that Ford/Higgins was a division of Century Data Systems. It must've been a last gasp, everything I've ever seen from Century Data was from the 70's. Tim N3QE From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 11:01:18 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 12:01:18 -0400 Subject: Attaching DEC Handles, the Right Way In-Reply-To: <1c0f0e96-6b34-0275-8d41-cfef002e9f0e@jwsss.com> References: <20170425210317.9ef07b09ecaa8847d826e2c2@gmail.com> <1c0f0e96-6b34-0275-8d41-cfef002e9f0e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:06 AM, jim stephens wrote: > He made a line of the ears for the DEC manufacturers here in Orange County, > and I've seen his SPC or Stu Phillips or Phillips company logo on may such > products. I didn't find his products, but I found these: http://www.bivar.com/enclosure-hardware/ejectors-handles-inserters-extractors/handles/cp-series?p=CP-2%20NT The CP-2 line seems to have the right dimensions for DEC FLIP CHIP modules (2.43" wide, ~2" rivet hole spacing) and they have them in natural nylon, which might be dyable, white, and black. They are stocked by Digikey and Mouser for under $1 each. > That business came from him owning an injection molding machine and someone > asking him to make the handles. His original business was doing jobs like > the riviting and other assembly jobs around Orange county. We are exploring a small-scale injection mold machine at our local hackerspace. I want to try some DEC switch handles but as an earlier experiment, FLIP CHIP handles will be a simpler die to make. -ethan From emailjrc at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 12:13:03 2017 From: emailjrc at gmail.com (Jarrod Coombes) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:13:03 -0700 Subject: Large Sale of Vintage hardware in Paradise, CA Message-ID: So I bought an abandoned storage unit in Paradise CA, and I think some of you guys will want to stop by and check some the stuff out. I did post this on VCFed (where I am a regular) but I figured I'd send it to this mailing list for visibility. Here is a large picture dump: http://imgur.com/a/g81WQ, and here is a list to go with it (to help ID the stuff in the pictures): https://airtable.com/shrkO3Xeu4WwYHsYK There will also be a ton of part and what not on sale too, they are listed here: https://airtable.com/shraX3xyq3qjiGRVr and here: https://airtable.com/shrA7cS5ApaOun6gd and the original Imgur album is here: http://imgur.com/a/0rEIv There are a few very nice complete setups there, including some TRS-80 setups, an Amiga 1000 setup, a Leading Edge Setup and a Franklin ACE-100 setup. There are also some thing not pictured, such as a bunch of Commodore Vic-20s, Radio Shack accessories, Commodore software and accessories. The list just sort of goes on and on. Okay, so here are the deets for the sale: *Where*: 7856 Skyway, Paradise CA *When*: Saturday April 29th, 11a till 6pm and Sunday April 30, 10a till 2p. *Cash only*, any reasonable offer will be considered! Jarrod Coombes From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 26 13:59:21 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 11:59:21 -0700 Subject: Attaching DEC Handles, the Right Way In-Reply-To: <9da079a7-7fca-3f21-468d-c3fdfd157fd2@jwsss.com> References: <20170425210317.9ef07b09ecaa8847d826e2c2@gmail.com> <1c0f0e96-6b34-0275-8d41-cfef002e9f0e@jwsss.com> <7ec121d6-2ab3-e388-ed43-dabb5956888e@bitsavers.org> <9da079a7-7fca-3f21-468d-c3fdfd157fd2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <8522b3d5-bcf2-3a06-1f29-3dac8976bb6e@bitsavers.org> On 4/26/17 10:02 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > The boards bend up or down in the center of the card > as you pull very hard on each edge. fortunately, Alto cards have steel bus bar/stiffeners at the edge connector end that keeps that from happening. do you know of anyone that still has any NOS of these around? I was going to canabalize a few off some some 4K DRAM Alto memory cards, since I don't have any non-XM machines any more and have dozens of them. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 26 14:03:57 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 12:03:57 -0700 Subject: ISO Matrox Multibus SX-900 graphics card manual Message-ID: <493ab464-b170-a08d-fa0d-09bb3d9751d7@bitsavers.org> on a whim I bought http://www.ebay.com/itm/142363021266 640x480x8 Multibus graphics board with 80286 and NEC 7220 apparently they were commonly used in process control, a fair number turn up at absurd prices From kirkbdavis at me.com Wed Apr 26 14:15:57 2017 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 12:15:57 -0700 Subject: RA82 HDA Message-ID: <71B030EE-C615-440D-BC5A-8DF606E2684E@me.com> I know it's a little bit early for mothers day but I have a RA82 HDA available for the cost of shipping (sorry but prepay - I've been stiffed by someone on this group). It needs a good home or it goes to the dumpster next week. Kirk From sbolton at bfree.on.ca Wed Apr 26 14:37:47 2017 From: sbolton at bfree.on.ca (Syd Bolton) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 15:37:47 -0400 Subject: Does anyone know what kind of terminal/computer this =?UTF-8?Q?is=3F?= Message-ID: <109d6419a6dbf2ac52b4920965984ffd@bfree.on.ca> Just wondering if anyone has any idea what this is: http://imgur.com/qqYlg1k I am not sure if it is a terminal or a computer as I don't recognize the logo. (I apologize if this appears as a duplicate post) From sbolton at bfree.on.ca Wed Apr 26 14:24:06 2017 From: sbolton at bfree.on.ca (Syd Bolton) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 15:24:06 -0400 Subject: Help identifying this old terminal Message-ID: Anybody recognize what kind of terminal this is? I am assuming it is a terminal rather than a personal computer. Thoughts? From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Apr 26 15:43:21 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 20:43:21 +0000 Subject: Large Sale of Vintage hardware in Paradise, CA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ________________________________________ Cute, but I'm more curious about whatt he car was. :-) bill From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 16:06:55 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:06:55 -0400 Subject: Attaching DEC Handles, the Right Way In-Reply-To: <1c0f0e96-6b34-0275-8d41-cfef002e9f0e@jwsss.com> References: <20170425210317.9ef07b09ecaa8847d826e2c2@gmail.com> <1c0f0e96-6b34-0275-8d41-cfef002e9f0e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20170426170655.08003cc8b4dae68cb81d193a@gmail.com> > It's one of these: > http://www.grommetmachinery.com/stimpson-479-machine.html Glad to hear it was saved from the scrap heap! A very cool machine, reminds me of the manual punch we had to go along with our trip punch at a previous job. > Stu Phillips, a friend of ours did the insertion of metal metal Southco > extractor handles on our boards for the Microdata 1600. > That business came from him owning an injection molding machine and > someone asking him to make the handles. The blue handles on the MDB Unibus prototyping boards I've got are Stu Phillips handles. They are indeed riveted on, but I don't know if MDB did their own riveting. With the amount of DEC-compatible stuff they made, it wouldn't surprise me. Thanks, Jonathan From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 16:10:27 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:10:27 -0400 Subject: Attaching DEC Handles, the Right Way In-Reply-To: References: <20170425210317.9ef07b09ecaa8847d826e2c2@gmail.com> <1c0f0e96-6b34-0275-8d41-cfef002e9f0e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20170426171027.94402537539444ff51686420@gmail.com> > The CP-2 line seems to have the right dimensions for DEC FLIP CHIP > modules (2.43" wide, ~2" rivet hole spacing) and they have them in > natural nylon, which might be dyable, white, and black. > > They are stocked by Digikey and Mouser for under $1 each. Good stuff! Now I know what to use when my stock of scavenged Thermalloy handles runs out! Thanks, Jonathan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 16:15:45 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:15:45 -0400 Subject: Attaching DEC Handles, the Right Way In-Reply-To: <20170426170655.08003cc8b4dae68cb81d193a@gmail.com> References: <20170425210317.9ef07b09ecaa8847d826e2c2@gmail.com> <1c0f0e96-6b34-0275-8d41-cfef002e9f0e@jwsss.com> <20170426170655.08003cc8b4dae68cb81d193a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Systems Glitch via cctalk wrote: >> It's one of these: >> http://www.grommetmachinery.com/stimpson-479-machine.html > > Glad to hear it was saved from the scrap heap! Indeed. I knew it was not a cheap item, and looking online today, it's a mere $2300! > A very cool machine, reminds me of the manual punch we had to go along with our trip punch at a previous job. I've wanted to look into buying additional dies for mine. All I have is the 1/8" tubular rivet setter. The bottom die has a 1/8" projection that the rivet slides down prior to setting. Some years before I started, someone broke that off (it would be easy to do if you were about to press the pedal and let the PCB slip from your hands - the weight and torque would easily stress the projection). I heard replacement dies were around $250. I haven't had a project that was important enough to research other types of dies. >> Stu Phillips, a friend of ours did the insertion of metal metal Southco >> extractor handles on our boards for the Microdata 1600. > > The blue handles on the MDB Unibus prototyping boards I've got are Stu Phillips handles. Ah. I probably have some I can check for makers marks. > They are indeed riveted on, but I don't know if MDB did their own riveting. With the amount of DEC-compatible stuff they made, it wouldn't surprise me. We did our own riveting at a smallish company, so I expect they did too. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 26 16:32:36 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 14:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help identifying this old terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2017, Syd Bolton via cctalk wrote: > Anybody recognize what kind of terminal this is? I am assuming it is > a terminal rather than a personal computer. Do you have a link, or a picture, or a description? > Thoughts? Without seeing it? From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Apr 26 16:41:10 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:41:10 -0400 Subject: Help identifying this old terminal Message-ID: <9e302.b9f662d.46326df6@aol.com> If we concentrate reeeeaalyyy hard .... Nope.. not working... Send us a link to photo! In a message dated 4/26/2017 2:32:44 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Wed, 26 Apr 2017, Syd Bolton via cctalk wrote: > Anybody recognize what kind of terminal this is? I am assuming it is > a terminal rather than a personal computer. Do you have a link, or a picture, or a description? > Thoughts? Without seeing it? From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Apr 26 16:44:58 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:44:58 -0400 Subject: Does anyone know what kind of terminal/computer this is? Message-ID: <9e408.60b32074.46326ed9@aol.com> OK here is a photo! Can you get a shot of the back of it~!? or a shot downwards at the keys? could be a terminal... could be a computer... with no further info .. a terminal would be my first guess... Ed# In a message dated 4/26/2017 12:37:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Just wondering if anyone has any idea what this is: http://imgur.com/qqYlg1k I am not sure if it is a terminal or a computer as I don't recognize the logo. (I apologize if this appears as a duplicate post) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 26 16:59:29 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 14:59:29 -0700 Subject: Does anyone know what kind of terminal/computer this is? In-Reply-To: <9e408.60b32074.46326ed9@aol.com> References: <9e408.60b32074.46326ed9@aol.com> Message-ID: <94a8cc68-14b9-d86c-480a-21d7136c404b@sydex.com> On 04/26/2017 02:44 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > OK here is a photo! > > Can you get a shot of the back of it~!? or a shot downwards at the > keys? could be a terminal... could be a computer... with no further > info .. a terminal would be my first guess... Ed# Without seeing the keyboard area, it's hard to say--but given what looks to be illuminated buttons on the left side of the keyboard, this is probably a block-mode terminal. It bears a faint resemblance to a CDC 200-series unit--but it's tough to say. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Apr 26 17:45:36 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 15:45:36 -0700 Subject: Attaching DEC Handles, the Right Way In-Reply-To: References: <20170425210317.9ef07b09ecaa8847d826e2c2@gmail.com> <1c0f0e96-6b34-0275-8d41-cfef002e9f0e@jwsss.com> <20170426170655.08003cc8b4dae68cb81d193a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <13840a19-aed2-e8e3-7986-cdee70a28255@jwsss.com> On 4/26/2017 2:15 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Systems Glitch via cctalk > wrote: >>> It's one of these: >>> http://www.grommetmachinery.com/stimpson-479-machine.html >> Glad to hear it was saved from the scrap heap! > Indeed. I knew it was not a cheap item, and looking online today, > it's a mere $2300! > >> A very cool machine, reminds me of the manual punch we had to go along with our trip punch at a previous job. > >> The blue handles on the MDB Unibus prototyping boards I've got are Stu Phillips handles. > Ah. I probably have some I can check for makers marks. > >> They are indeed riveted on, but I don't know if MDB did their own riveting. With the amount of DEC-compatible stuff they made, it wouldn't surprise me. > > -ethan Found his contact info STU PHILLIPS CO 23141 LA CADENA DRIVE, SUITE P LAGUNA HILLS CA 714-855-4263 WRAP POSTS STU PHILLIPS OWNER From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 17:48:41 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 16:48:41 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 versus 16B In-Reply-To: References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 8:28 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Been trying to Google things, but not having a lot of luck. I understand > both are white case, both have slimline drives, 12 had no card cage, I > think I read somewhere that the 16 came with 68K std (no Z80?), and 12 had > KB conn on case, 16B had KB conn on KB. Beyond that, though, would love > more information. > All machines in the II/12/16/6000 family have the Z80. When using the 68000 in equipped machines (16, 16b, 6000 from factory, II and 12 with upgrade), the Z80 is responsible for booting the system and handling all of the I/O. The 68000 can't talk directly to anything except the Z80. All the machines in the family can run Z80 software, including Model II TRSDOS and CP/M. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 26 19:39:22 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 19:39:22 -0500 Subject: test, please ignore Message-ID: <005601d2beee$b71ada90$25508fb0$@classiccmp.org> Don't need a response, please ignore. J From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 19:52:32 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:52:32 -0700 Subject: test, please ignore In-Reply-To: <005601d2beee$b71ada90$25508fb0$@classiccmp.org> References: <005601d2beee$b71ada90$25508fb0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: ACK TEST RECEIVED LOUD AND CLEAR JAY! Don't need a response, please ignore. Cheers, Thanks, - Ian On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Don't need a response, please ignore. > > > > J > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 20:01:17 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 18:01:17 -0700 Subject: ISO Matrox Multibus SX-900 graphics card manual In-Reply-To: <493ab464-b170-a08d-fa0d-09bb3d9751d7@bitsavers.org> References: <493ab464-b170-a08d-fa0d-09bb3d9751d7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > on a whim I bought > http://www.ebay.com/itm/142363021266 > > 640x480x8 Multibus graphics board with 80286 and NEC 7220 > Seller has another one listed, $60 BIN: http://www.ebay.com/itm/142363050572 While on the topic of Matrox graphics boards from around the same time frame, does anyone know of any Matrox boards that use an NS32016 CPU other than the QG-640? Someone was asking me about such a board, which is definitely not a QG-640, with an NS32016 CPU and a Matrox copyright date of 1985 in the firmware. The board form factor might be something similar to a full sized ISA bus board, although I can't be sure about that. I don't see anything in the manuals here that could be a match. The only one I saw with an NS32016 CPU is the QG-640. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/matrox/ From bear at typewritten.org Thu Apr 27 02:37:02 2017 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 00:37:02 -0700 Subject: ISO Matrox Multibus SX-900 graphics card manual In-Reply-To: References: <493ab464-b170-a08d-fa0d-09bb3d9751d7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Apr 26, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Glen Slick via cctech wrote: > While on the topic of Matrox graphics boards from around the same time > frame, does anyone know of any Matrox boards that use an NS32016 CPU > other than the QG-640? The Matrox PG-640. Same graphics accelerator, but for PC compatibles. I just happened to have one sitting out on the counter. I checked it and it definitely has an NS32016 on it. The PG-640 is a dual-width 8-bit ISA card (instead of QBus for the QG-640). It's supposed to be compatible with the IBM PGC, but presumably only if your software behaves and doesn't try to program the 8086 on the PGC directly. My experience with the supposedly-PGC-compatible Vermont Microsystems Image Manager 1024 is that it is compatible (AutoCAD), except when it isn't (Generic CADD). I haven't actually tried to use the PG-640 yet so I can't say more about this. The PG-640 is supposed to be faster than the PGC, too. Perhaps it is, except when it isn't. ok bear. -- until further notice From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 10:49:39 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 08:49:39 -0700 Subject: ISO Matrox Multibus SX-900 graphics card manual In-Reply-To: References: <493ab464-b170-a08d-fa0d-09bb3d9751d7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:37 AM, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > > On Apr 26, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Glen Slick via cctech wrote: > >> While on the topic of Matrox graphics boards from around the same time >> frame, does anyone know of any Matrox boards that use an NS32016 CPU >> other than the QG-640? > > The Matrox PG-640. Same graphics accelerator, but for PC compatibles. I just happened to have one sitting out on the counter. I checked it and it definitely has an NS32016 on it. > Thank you. Mystery solved. The board in question does appear to be a match for the bottom board of the Matrox PG-640 board set shown in the photos of this eBay listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/311599569320 If anyone is interested in images of the Q-Bus version QG-640 I posted a scan of one here, along with binary images of the firmware: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8Vwo-hnhVM5dUhOYnZqY3JUM3M Back on topic, hope someone can provide Al with a copy of the Matrox Multibus SX-900 graphics card manual. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 10:55:53 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 08:55:53 -0700 Subject: ISO Matrox Multibus SX-900 graphics card manual In-Reply-To: References: <493ab464-b170-a08d-fa0d-09bb3d9751d7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > > If anyone is interested in images of the Q-Bus version QG-640 I posted > a scan of one here, along with binary images of the firmware: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8Vwo-hnhVM5dUhOYnZqY3JUM3M > Sorry for sidetracking this thread further. I meant to post this link to the folder, not an individual file. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8Vwo-hnhVM5X3puYVZ2U0E5NFU From ams at gnu.org Thu Apr 27 12:02:56 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:02:56 -0400 Subject: test, please ignore In-Reply-To: <005601d2beee$b71ada90$25508fb0$@classiccmp.org> (message from Jay West via cctalk on Wed, 26 Apr 2017 19:39:22 -0500) References: <005601d2beee$b71ada90$25508fb0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: This isn't a response, do not ignore. From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 12:15:52 2017 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:15:52 -0400 Subject: test, please ignore In-Reply-To: References: <005601d2beee$b71ada90$25508fb0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: LOL A+ thread would read again -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Alfred M. Szmidt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > This isn't a response, do not ignore. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 12:42:09 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:42:09 -0400 Subject: Tandon TM-100-1 electronics repair Message-ID: Hi, All, I'm cleaning/refurbing a TRS-80 Model 4 I picked up at VCFe that was in dirty-but-mostly-working shape. I've completely dismantled, cleaned and reassembled the keyboard, I fixed the bad cable to the floppy controller, I cleaned and lubed the TM-100-1 floppy drive, and had it all nice and working, then I bumped the power strip it was plugged into and the momentary surge took out the electronics on the floppy drive. I swapped it out with another TM-100-1 unit (borrowed from a Model 1) and it's booting again, but when using this toasted drive as :1, I get either an ERROR 3 or ERROR 4 from TRSDOS 1.3 (my primary testing disk for the moment). The drive still seeks and spins but it won't read disks that it used to read before the power hit. I also have an original NEWDOS/80 disk and a copied MULTIDOS disk. I have not yet fixed up a PC with a 40-track 5.25" drive for making fresh disks, but it's on the list of solution paths. I have the TM-100 service manual PDF (which includes schematics), so it shouldn't be difficult to work through the functional subsystems of the drive electronics. My question is are there any specific issues with the parts on the TM-100 PCB to look for? There are a handful of reasonably common ICs, and dozens of discrete components. Of course I can trace through each section looking for where the results are unexpected, but for such a common thing as a TM-100, perhaps there are known pain points and perhaps someone here has repaired a few and could highlight what parts might be "fragile". Additionally, for a testing framework to poke signals through the drive for debugging during the repair, what's a good platform? A PC running MS-DOS? The TRS-80 Model 4 itself? Besides doing directories, are there any good bits of software anyone can recommend for exercising floppy drives on a sub-system-by-subsystem basis? (move the heads, do a read, do a write...) I expect like the last repair (shorted tantalum filter cap), this repair is going to be a small number of components. Parts of the drive are known to work - the motor turns on and off when it should, and it does seek back to track zero when manually moved off of track zero prior to doing a DIR :1 or when booting it as :0. At first glance, something appears to be toasted in the read electronics. It's not impossible to find another TM-100-1 or replace it with a TM-100-2 (more common, owing to its appearance in the IBM 5150 PC), but I'd like to just repair this one and get back to TRS-80 hacking. Thanks for any tips or pointers. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 12:58:18 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:58:18 -0400 Subject: Help identifying this old terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Syd Bolton via cctalk wrote: > Anybody recognize what kind of terminal this is? If you think you attached a photo, you did not. This list filters out attachments. Send a link to a photo. -ethan From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 12:58:38 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 18:58:38 +0100 Subject: Tandon TM-100-1 electronics repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 6:42 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Hi, All, > > I'm cleaning/refurbing a TRS-80 Model 4 I picked up at VCFe that was > in dirty-but-mostly-working shape. I've completely dismantled, > cleaned and reassembled the keyboard, I fixed the bad cable to the > floppy controller, I cleaned and lubed the TM-100-1 floppy drive, and > had it all nice and working, then I bumped the power strip it was > plugged into and the momentary surge took out the electronics on the > floppy drive. I swapped it out with another TM-100-1 unit (borrowed > from a Model 1) and it's booting again, but when using this toasted > drive as :1, I get either an ERROR 3 or ERROR 4 from TRSDOS 1.3 (my > primary testing disk for the moment). The drive still seeks and spins > but it won't read disks that it used to read before the power hit. > > I also have an original NEWDOS/80 disk and a copied MULTIDOS disk. I > have not yet fixed up a PC with a 40-track 5.25" drive for making > fresh disks, but it's on the list of solution paths. > > I have the TM-100 service manual PDF (which includes schematics), so > it shouldn't be difficult to work through the functional subsystems of > the drive electronics. My question is are there any specific issues > with the parts on the TM-100 PCB to look for? There are a handful of > reasonably common ICs, and dozens of discrete components. Of course I > can trace through each section looking for where the results are > unexpected, but for such a common thing as a TM-100, perhaps there are > known pain points and perhaps someone here has repaired a few and > could highlight what parts might be "fragile". Floppy drives of that vintage consist of a number of almost independant systems (there's a common enable/drive select but that's about it). It looks like a problem in the read chain, but is it? If the spindle was turning at the wrong speed I think it would fail to read. So I would check each subsection of the drive, just in case it's not the obvious one. In the case of the read amplifier, you could start with a differential- input 'scope on the pins used for head alignment (reading a normal disk). If there's a good signal there the head select diodes (AFAIK these are present even on the single-sided drive) and first amplifier IC are OK. If not, then debug that part. I don't know of any obvious common failures, and anyway murphy's law will ensure that your drive has something odd failed :-) Stock fault lists are useful if you have many indentical units to repair, you might get 90% of them off the bench quickly but fairly useless for one-off jobs. > > Additionally, for a testing framework to poke signals through the > drive for debugging during the repair, what's a good platform? A PC > running MS-DOS? The TRS-80 Model 4 itself? Besides doing > directories, are there any good bits of software anyone can recommend > for exercising floppy drives on a sub-system-by-subsystem basis? > (move the heads, do a read, do a write...) There are/were drive exercisers but no idea where you'd find one now. If you were nearer to me, you could use mine.... More seriously, the signals involved are fairly slow speed. Before I had a drive exerciser, I linked the important drive inputs (select, motor on, step, direction, etc) to a PC parallel port and wrote a short program (I think in Turbo Pascal, but it was a long time ago) to turn the motor on, step the heads around, etc. I think I monitored some of the drive outputs using the printer port input lines too, but a logic probe is all you really need to check index, track 0, etc. You need a 'scope to debug the read amplifier of course (that applies even if you have a drive exerciser). Do check the spindle speed. Often there is a strobe disk on the spindle pulley in these drives (if it's missing, I am sure you can get an image of it somewhere, print it, cut it out and stick it on the pulley). But also check ('scope) that you are getting 5 index pulses per second, just in case the darn thing is running at half speed or something. -tony From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 13:03:10 2017 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 20:03:10 +0200 Subject: RA82 HDA Message-ID: Hello, where are you located? If you are in EU, I'm interested. Thanks Andrea From kirkbdavis at me.com Thu Apr 27 13:49:39 2017 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 11:49:39 -0700 Subject: RA82 HDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <147AC2C9-53A3-4742-A902-EA9629E8F801@me.com> San Jose, California. Someone has already nabbed it. Kirk > On Apr 27, 2017, at 11:03 AM, shadoooo via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > where are you located? > If you are in EU, I'm interested. > > Thanks > Andrea From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 13:58:31 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 15:58:31 -0300 Subject: test, please ignore In-Reply-To: <005601d2beee$b71ada90$25508fb0$@classiccmp.org> References: <005601d2beee$b71ada90$25508fb0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: This is a test, designed to provoke an emotional response Enviado do meu Tele-Movel On Apr 26, 2017 9:39 PM, "Jay West via cctalk" wrote: > Don't need a response, please ignore. > > > > J > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Apr 27 14:08:07 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:08:07 +0000 Subject: RA82 HDA In-Reply-To: <147AC2C9-53A3-4742-A902-EA9629E8F801@me.com> References: , <147AC2C9-53A3-4742-A902-EA9629E8F801@me.com> Message-ID: Did he come with a liftgate pickup truck? :-) bill ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Kirk Davis via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 2:49 PM To: shadoooo; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: RA82 HDA San Jose, California. Someone has already nabbed it. Kirk > On Apr 27, 2017, at 11:03 AM, shadoooo via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > where are you located? > If you are in EU, I'm interested. > > Thanks > Andrea From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 27 14:27:28 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 12:27:28 -0700 Subject: Tandon TM-100-1 electronics repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25c4793a-6f4d-e031-d7be-5145884fb48b@sydex.com> On 04/27/2017 10:42 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > It's not impossible to find another TM-100-1 or replace it with a > TM-100-2 (more common, owing to its appearance in the IBM 5150 PC), > but I'd like to just repair this one and get back to TRS-80 hacking. The issue with Jugi's artistry is that there isn't a single version of the PCB for the TM-100. I have drives with 3- 4- and 6-wire steppers on them, all taking different PCBs. But a TM-100 is a very simple-minded device. You can easily check its basic mechanical operation off the system by grounding various signal lines (all are active-low). So you can ground the motor line to make sure that the motor spins; you can ground the drive select to see if the LED illuminates. With the drive select operating, you cna use the STEP and DIRECTION lines to move the head carriage; you can check the operation of the track zero sensor. Checking the read-write channel is a bit more challenging and a 'scope can be very useful. For lack of anything else, if you've got a PC with a floppy controller, you can use Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk utility to perform simple checks. He includes an RPM tester, though if the drive still has the strobe disk attached to the spindle flywheel, a simple line-operated neon lamp can do the same. --Chuck From vpresher at ddci.net Thu Apr 27 12:38:50 2017 From: vpresher at ddci.net (Victor Presher) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 12:38:50 -0500 Subject: IBM 3420 x2 + 3803 for sale Message-ID: <0db701d2bf7d$24a6bcd0$6df43670$@ddci.net> I am interested in your tape drives if you still have them.. Can you send photos of all components? Victor Presher 214-905-4447 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 27 15:43:56 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandon TM-100-1 electronics repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2017, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > It's not impossible to find another TM-100-1 or replace it with a > TM-100-2 (more common, owing to its appearance in the IBM 5150 PC), > but I'd like to just repair this one and get back to TRS-80 hacking. Actually, the IBM 5150 PC originally (August 1981) mostly came with TM100-1. It wasn't until about nine months later, when IBM released PC-DOS 1.10 (May, 1982, which supported double sided drives) that they added TM100-2 availability. Why not use the TM100-2? It will work for any of the single sided use, and some versions of the operating systems supported double sided drives. (On the Tandy version of LDOS, double sided support was undocumented, because Tandy didn't sell a double sided drive, until the model 4D?) Remember that the PC uses all drives jumpered as if they were :1/DS1/B: Radio Shack used an "unused" pin of the interface for drive :3/DS3/D:, Unfortunately, that was the pin that was "reserved" for side select! That poses a problem for model 1 (with four drives on one cable), but not for III, 4, nor 4P If you have a model 1 drive that has the modification for drive select using the side select signal, don't use it if you use any double sided drives in the machine, or clip that wire on the drive. You can use "half-height" drives in a model 3 or 4. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Apr 27 16:40:07 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:40:07 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Air=20Force=20Issues=20Challenge=20to=20=E2=80=9CHack=20th?= =?UTF-8?Q?e=20Air=20Force=E2=80=9D=2004/26/2017=2004:10=20PM=20CDT=20=20=20=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?--?= Message-ID: <1c3a71.6b49d6e0.4633bf37@aol.com> ____________________________________ IMMEDIATE RELEASE No. NR-145-17 April 26, 2017 ____________________________________ Air Force Issues Challenge to ?Hack the Air Force? The Air Force is inviting vetted computer security specialists from across the U.S. and select partner nations to do their best to hack some of its key public websites. The initiative is part of the Cyber Secure campaign sponsored by the Air Force?s Chief Information Office as a measure to further operationalize the domain and leverage talent from both within and outside the Department of Defense. The event expands on the DoD ?Hack the Pentagon? bug bounty program by broadening the participation pool from U.S. citizens to include ?white hat? hackers from the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. ?This outside approach--drawing on the talent and expertise of our citizens and partner-nation citizens--in identifying our security vulnerabilities will help bolster our cybersecurity. We already aggressively conduct exercises and 'red team' our public facing and critical websites. But this next step throws open the doors and brings additional talent onto our cyber team,? said Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. David Goldfein. White hat hacking and crowdsourced security concepts are industry standards that are used by small businesses and large corporations alike to better secure their networks against malicious attacks. Bug bounty programs offer paid bounties for all legitimate vulnerabilities reported. ?This is the first time the AF has opened up our networks to such a broad scrutiny,? said Air Force Chief Information Security Officer Peter Kim. ? We have malicious hackers trying to get into our systems every day. It will be nice to have friendly hackers taking a shot and, most importantly, showing us how to improve our cybersecurity and defense posture. The additional participation from our partner nations greatly widens the variety of experience available to find additional unique vulnerabilities.? Kim made the announcement at a kick-off event held at the headquarters of HackerOne, the contracted security consulting firm running the contest. "The whole idea of 'security through obscurity' is completely backwards. We need to understand where our weaknesses are in order to fix them, and there is no better way than to open it up to the global hacker community," said Chris Lynch of the Defense Digital Service (DDS), an organization comprised of industry experts incorporating critical private sector experience across numerous digital challenges. The competition for technical talent in both the public and private sectors is fiercer than it has ever been according to Kim. The Air Force must compete with companies like Facebook and Google for the best and brightest, particularly in the science, technology, engineering, and math fields. Keen to leverage private sector talent, the Air Force partnered with DDS to launch the Air Force Digital Service team in January 2017, affording a creative solution that turns that competition for talent into a partnership. In fact, Acting Secretary of the Air Force Lisa S. Disbrow and Gen. Goldfein visited the Defense Digital Service and Air Force Digital Service in early April to discuss a variety of initiatives the Air Force can benefit from. ?We're mobilizing the best talent from across the nation and among partner nations to help strengthen the Air Force's cyber defenses. It's an exciting venture, one that will make us better, and one that focuses an incredible pool of capabilities toward keeping our Air Force sites secure," said Acting Secretary Disbrow. The DoD?s ?Hack the Pentagon? initiative was launched by the Defense Digital Service in April 2016 as the first bug bounty program employed by the federal government. More than 1,400 hackers registered to participate in the program. Nearly 200 reports were received within the first six hours of the program?s launch, and $75,000 in total bounties was paid out to participating hackers. Registration for the ?Hack the Air Force? event opens on May 15th on the _HackerOne_ (http://links.govdelivery.com/track?type=click&enid =ZWFzPTEmbWFpbGluZ2lkPTIwMTcwNDI3LjcyNzk2MTYxJm1lc3NhZ2VpZD1NREItUFJELUJVTC0yMDE3MDQyNy43M jc5NjE2MSZkYXRhYmFzZWlkPTEwMDEmc2VyaWFsPTE3NDEwNDE5JmVtYWlsaWQ9Y291cnlob3VzZ UBhb2wuY29tJnVzZXJpZD1jb3VyeWhvdXNlQGFvbC5jb20mZmw9JmV4dHJhPU11bHRpdmFyaWF0Z UlkPSYmJg==&&&101&&&https://www.hackerone.com/?source=GovDelivery) website. The contest opens on May 30th and ends on June 23rd. Military members and government civilians are not eligible for compensation, but can participate on-duty with supervisor approval. Updates from the U.S. Department of Defense From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 18:05:30 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 18:05:30 -0500 Subject: test, please ignore Message-ID: (Waits for Jay's next email "This has been a test of the new auto banning system. Thank you.") -------- Original message --------From: Alexandre Souza via cctalk Date: 4/27/17 1:58 PM (GMT-06:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , Jay West Subject: Re: test, please ignore This is a test, designed to provoke an emotional response Enviado do meu Tele-Movel On Apr 26, 2017 9:39 PM, "Jay West via cctalk" wrote: > Don't need a response, please ignore. > > > > J > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 20:36:45 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:36:45 -0400 Subject: Tandon TM-100-1 electronics repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 6:42 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk >> (diagnosing and repairing a) TM-100-1 floppy drive... > Floppy drives of that vintage consist of a number of almost independant > systems (there's a common enable/drive select but that's about it). > It looks like a problem in the read chain, but is it? If the spindle was > turning at the wrong speed I think it would fail to read. Yes. I did consider the spindle speed, but I'm reasonably certain it's good. > So I would check each subsection of the drive, just in case it's not > the obvious one. Well, yes. I'm really just asking about known weaknesses as a starting point. > In the case of the read amplifier, you could start with a differential- > input 'scope on the pins used for head alignment (reading a normal > disk). If there's a good signal there the head select diodes (AFAIK > these are present even on the single-sided drive) and first amplifier > IC are OK. If not, then debug that part. Right. > I don't know of any obvious common failures, and anyway > murphy's law will ensure that your drive has something odd failed :-) Perhaps. The last failure with this unit had the most obvious cause. I literally tested one component and it was exactly that part that had failed. >> Additionally, for a testing framework... > There are/were drive exercisers but no idea where you'd find one now. > If you were nearer to me, you could use mine.... Right. I don't have a drive exerciser (and I live in the States) so I didn't figure that was an easily achievable path. I'm figuring on having to use a live machine to make the drive dance and I don't fancy writing my own code on top of it all. Rather than go to that extent, I'm more likely to toss the drive on the "to be fixed someday" pile and get to it (much) later. > You need a 'scope to debug the read amplifier of course (that > applies even if you have a drive exerciser). Yes. Of course I have a scope. At least one. > Do check the spindle speed. Often there is a strobe disk on the > spindle pulley in these drives There is. It works. > But also check ('scope) that you are getting 5 index pulses > per second, just in case the darn thing is running at half speed or > something. Worth verifying, but there's a visual difference between 300 RPM and 150 RPM (plus they sound different). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 21:34:00 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 22:34:00 -0400 Subject: Tandon TM-100-1 electronics repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 4:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 27 Apr 2017, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> >> It's not impossible to find another TM-100-1 or replace it with a >> TM-100-2 > > Actually, the IBM 5150 PC originally (August 1981) mostly came with TM100-1. > It wasn't until about nine months later, when IBM released PC-DOS 1.10 (May, > 1982, which supported double sided drives) that they added TM100-2 > availability. Ah. I had forgotten that detail. I only ever worked machines with double-sided drives. > Why not use the TM100-2? It will work for any of the single sided use, and > some versions of the operating systems supported double sided drives. > (On the Tandy version of LDOS, double sided support was undocumented, > because Tandy didn't sell a double sided drive, until the model 4D?) I know it will work. > Remember that the PC uses all drives jumpered as if they were :1/DS1/B: Right. I well remember how to jumper drive selects. > Radio Shack used an "unused" pin of the interface for drive :3/DS3/D:, > Unfortunately, that was the pin that was "reserved" for side select! > That poses a problem for model 1 (with four drives on one cable), but not > for III, 4, nor 4P Yes. I was reading about that the other day. I don't have any 4-drive units, just multiple dual-drive units. > If you have a model 1 drive that has the modification for drive select using > the side select signal, don't use it if you use any double sided drives in > the machine, or clip that wire on the drive. Good to keep in mind. I borrowed a half-height "Bachelor" FD-104 from a Model 1 for drive/controller testing. I cannot find docs for it, and barely a mention, even in TheRef. There is one jumper block by the 34-pin edge connector - marked D.S. / 0 / (1) / 2 / 3 / MX. (the '1' is damaged/missing because of a PCB via). It seems the first jumper is likely to be single/double-sided (there are 2 heads), then 4 drive selects, then the MX one-drive-only-select jumper. > You can use "half-height" drives in a model 3 or 4. Yes but at the moment, I only have one half-height 40-track drive, that Bachelor FD-104. My only loose drives are 80-track HD units. -ethan From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Apr 27 22:17:01 2017 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 23:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tandon TM-100-1 electronics repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2017, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Additionally, for a testing framework to poke signals through the > drive for debugging during the repair, what's a good platform? A PC > running MS-DOS? The TRS-80 Model 4 itself? Besides doing > directories, are there any good bits of software anyone can recommend > for exercising floppy drives on a sub-system-by-subsystem basis? > (move the heads, do a read, do a write...) You should check out a couple of disk utility programs for the Model 4: Super Utility 4/4P http://tim-mann.org/trs80/su4a.zip (CMD version) https://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/trs80-4p/dmkeilImages/util/97-0005.ace (bootable version) http://tim-mann.org/trs80/doc/su4man.pdf Hyperzap 3.2C https://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/97-0002.ace If you hook up a working drive to boot from, one of those should help to exercise/exorcise the bad drive. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From kirkbdavis at me.com Thu Apr 27 23:41:46 2017 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:41:46 -0700 Subject: RA82 HDA In-Reply-To: References: <147AC2C9-53A3-4742-A902-EA9629E8F801@me.com> Message-ID: Heh no. I?m going to ship it. It?s just the HDA assembly so it?s a lot more compact than the entire drive. Still it?s a heavy mutha :-) Kirk > On Apr 27, 2017, at 12:08 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > Did he come with a liftgate pickup truck? :-) > > bill > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Kirk Davis via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 2:49 PM > To: shadoooo; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RA82 HDA > > San Jose, California. Someone has already nabbed it. > > Kirk > >> On Apr 27, 2017, at 11:03 AM, shadoooo via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hello, >> where are you located? >> If you are in EU, I'm interested. >> >> Thanks >> Andrea > From brain at jbrain.com Fri Apr 28 00:18:08 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 00:18:08 -0500 Subject: Anyone driving from the Midwest to VCF_SE this weekend? Message-ID: <36892b89-2834-13a0-44f7-34e44b40f20b@jbrain.com> I am flying in and wondering if someone had any extra room coming home (for parts, not me). Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 28 00:49:28 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 22:49:28 -0700 Subject: Tandon TM-100-1 electronics repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16a8edb5-155d-81d9-0534-92d4a9f5f6f7@sydex.com> > On Thu, 27 Apr 2017, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > >> Additionally, for a testing framework to poke signals through the >> drive for debugging during the repair, what's a good platform? A >> PC running MS-DOS? The TRS-80 Model 4 itself? Besides doing >> directories, are there any good bits of software anyone can >> recommend for exercising floppy drives on a sub-system-by-subsystem >> basis? (move the heads, do a read, do a write...) I'd still recommend Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk--it's got several good functions--test RPM, Clean heads, check alignment, etc. Runs on MS-DOS and, AFAIK, even on the 5150. I'm actually a bit surprised that nobody's done a floppy exerciser for the lowly Arduino. Easy enough--if you use the timer "capture" feature on the AVR, you can even do simple disk read testing. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Apr 28 00:56:06 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 23:56:06 -0600 Subject: Tandon TM-100-1 electronics repair In-Reply-To: <16a8edb5-155d-81d9-0534-92d4a9f5f6f7@sydex.com> References: <16a8edb5-155d-81d9-0534-92d4a9f5f6f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 11:49 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, 27 Apr 2017, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Additionally, for a testing framework to poke signals through the >>> drive for debugging during the repair, what's a good platform? A >>> PC running MS-DOS? The TRS-80 Model 4 itself? Besides doing >>> directories, are there any good bits of software anyone can >>> recommend for exercising floppy drives on a sub-system-by-subsystem >>> basis? (move the heads, do a read, do a write...) > > > I'd still recommend Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk--it's got several good > functions--test RPM, Clean heads, check alignment, etc. > > Runs on MS-DOS and, AFAIK, even on the 5150. > > I'm actually a bit surprised that nobody's done a floppy exerciser for > the lowly Arduino. Easy enough--if you use the timer "capture" feature > on the AVR, you can even do simple disk read testing. KryoFlux has something like that. https://www.kryoflux.com/ has the details, but it is commercial. Warner From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Apr 28 04:32:01 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 10:32:01 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? Message-ID: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> Hi all, A colleague and I are trying to get a VT220 working again as it recently died on us. We are hoping to set up a few items for the mid-80s (including this terminal) to show the graduands what it would have been like if they were doing their CompSci degree 30 years ago. It looks to me like the flyback is dead. There is a lot of soot and there looks like there is some damage to the top of the transformer, better seen in the second image. http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/sparse/flyback1.jpg http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/sparse/flyback2.jpg The terminal powers on and does the usual beeping but nothing is displayed on the screen. Does anyone have any advice about what to do here? Are there any sources of compatible flyback transformers? We have a second VT220 which exhibits the same behaviour, hopefully for a different reason so we can try and cobble two into one. Any thoughts / advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Aaron. -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory http://cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Apr 28 07:27:20 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:27:20 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> > Hi all, > > A colleague and I are trying to get a VT220 working again as it recently > died on us. We are hoping to set up a few items for the mid-80s > (including this terminal) to show the graduands what it would have been > like if they were doing their CompSci degree 30 years ago. > > It looks to me like the flyback is dead. There is a lot of soot and > there looks like there is some damage to the top of the transformer, > better seen in the second image. > > http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/sparse/flyback1.jpg > http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/sparse/flyback2.jpg > I think the soot is fairly typical of what accumulates on high voltage components in a city environment. I'm not sure this indicates any damage to it but it may well be faulty without showing any signs of damage. > > The terminal powers on and does the usual beeping but nothing is > displayed on the screen. Does anyone have any advice about what to do > here? Are there any sources of compatible flyback transformers? > I have a VT220 which also appears to have a faulty flyback. This results in it drawing too much current from the power supply. I am not certain the flyback is faulty but I have eliminated most of the other components which are likely to be responsible. I have looked for replacement flybacks or equivelants but I have never found any. Someone mentioned that they might have VT220 parts available on the list some time ago but I didn't get anywhere in following that up. > > We have a second VT220 which exhibits the same behaviour, hopefully for > a different reason so we can try and cobble two into one. > I have a second VT220 which works and I have used it to compare readings with my faulty one. I also tried swapping some of the suspect components but this failed to take suspicion off the flyback. I am reluctant to try swapping the flybacks over in case I cause damage to the working VT220. While the two flybacks appear likely to be electrically similar, I am not certain of this and they are physically different - one is PCB mounted and the other is chassis mounted with flying leads to the PCB as far as I recall. They have different part numbers, 16-21181-01 and 16-26299-01. > > Any thoughts / advice would be greatly appreciated. > Sorry, I haven't been able to provide much help or hope. Regards, Peter Coghlan > > Thanks, > > Aaron. > > > > -- > Aaron Jackson > PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory > http://cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Apr 28 08:07:40 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 14:07:40 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> Thanks for the information, Peter. It makes me want to try and test a few of the components around the flyback. Thanks again, Aaron. Peter Coghlan via cctalk writes: >> Hi all, >> >> A colleague and I are trying to get a VT220 working again as it recently >> died on us. We are hoping to set up a few items for the mid-80s >> (including this terminal) to show the graduands what it would have been >> like if they were doing their CompSci degree 30 years ago. >> >> It looks to me like the flyback is dead. There is a lot of soot and >> there looks like there is some damage to the top of the transformer, >> better seen in the second image. >> >> http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/sparse/flyback1.jpg >> http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/sparse/flyback2.jpg >> > > I think the soot is fairly typical of what accumulates on high voltage > components in a city environment. I'm not sure this indicates any damage to > it but it may well be faulty without showing any signs of damage. > >> >> The terminal powers on and does the usual beeping but nothing is >> displayed on the screen. Does anyone have any advice about what to do >> here? Are there any sources of compatible flyback transformers? >> > > I have a VT220 which also appears to have a faulty flyback. This results in > it drawing too much current from the power supply. I am not certain the > flyback is faulty but I have eliminated most of the other components which > are likely to be responsible. > > I have looked for replacement flybacks or equivelants but I have never found > any. Someone mentioned that they might have VT220 parts available on the list > some time ago but I didn't get anywhere in following that up. > >> >> We have a second VT220 which exhibits the same behaviour, hopefully for >> a different reason so we can try and cobble two into one. >> > > I have a second VT220 which works and I have used it to compare readings > with my faulty one. I also tried swapping some of the suspect components > but this failed to take suspicion off the flyback. I am reluctant to try > swapping the flybacks over in case I cause damage to the working VT220. > > While the two flybacks appear likely to be electrically similar, I am not > certain of this and they are physically different - one is PCB mounted > and the other is chassis mounted with flying leads to the PCB as far as > I recall. They have different part numbers, 16-21181-01 and 16-26299-01. > >> >> Any thoughts / advice would be greatly appreciated. >> > > Sorry, I haven't been able to provide much help or hope. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan > >> >> Thanks, >> >> Aaron. >> >> >> >> -- >> Aaron Jackson >> PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory >> http://cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 09:50:42 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 16:50:42 +0200 Subject: Run/Stop switch from a Soviet S/370 clone Message-ID: My flatmate has one of these. Just the small subassembly with the 2 push-buttons and a red light between them. Is this something that would be of interest to anyone? I'm trying to persuade him to eBay it instead of throwing it away. We've also got the plastic covers from a few disk packs, an empty metal chassis and a few other odds and sods. Sadly most of the machine was binned long long ago. :-( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Apr 28 10:08:28 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 16:08:28 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> > > Thanks for the information, Peter. It makes me want to try and test a > few of the components around the flyback. > It would also be good to check the stuff like voltages on the base of the CRT and that the CRT heater is glowing. You could have a problem that is nothing to do with the flyback. (I'm assuming the brightness control is turned up). > > Thanks again, > You're welcome. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > Aaron. > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Apr 28 10:38:15 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 16:38:15 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Yes we checked for the glow. It's very dim but it is there. I will bring one home this weekend and check some of the surrounding components. Hopefully it is something very simple to replace. I'll have a probe. Thanks! Aaron. Peter Coghlan via cctalk writes: >> >> Thanks for the information, Peter. It makes me want to try and test a >> few of the components around the flyback. >> > > It would also be good to check the stuff like voltages on the base of the CRT > and that the CRT heater is glowing. You could have a problem that is nothing > to do with the flyback. (I'm assuming the brightness control is turned up). > >> >> Thanks again, >> > > You're welcome. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > >> >> Aaron. >> From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 28 11:00:28 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 09:00:28 -0700 Subject: Diablo 3x pictures Message-ID: Was working on some Drives this week, and took some pictures of it disassembled. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/diablo/photos/Diablo_33F/ The prefilter was orange crumblefoam. I took a look at my NOS ones and they have a greenish prefilter that still appears to be OK. The gasket going up to the plastic basket that holds the pack is crublefoam as well. I'm going to try some 3/8" x 1/2" Norprene foam strip as a replacement, with polyurethane glue over the seam. The door latch and load lamp is driving me nuts. Dug out my extender card this morning to try and figure out why the driver transistors aren't turning on. Tranistors, diodes are fine, and the J9 board that drives it works in another drive. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 11:01:47 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 17:01:47 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 4:38 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Yes we checked for the glow. It's very dim but it is there. I will bring What do you mean by 'very dim'? It should be a distinct orange glow, best seen looking up the base of the CRT. I normally start by checking the CRT pin voltages. There's nothing on the pins of a monochrome CRT that can't be measured with a normal multimeter. The sort of voltages I would expect are : pin 2 -- cathode -- 70V-100V pin 1 or pin 5 -- control grid (the 2 pins are linked inside the CRT) -- perhaps 10V-20V less than the cathode pin3,pin4 -- heater. One will be grounded (0V). The other will be around 11V-12V pin6, pin7 -- anodes. I forget which is the first anode and which is the second (focus) anode, but expect a few hundred V -- say 400V-800V on each of them. The higher voltages (cathode, anodes) will come from the flyback transformer in the horizontal output stage, so if they're all missing, suspect problems there. If the heater voltage is low, suspect PSU problems. I assume you have the printset (I think I got it from bitsavers). The monitor section circuit looks very standard to me. -tony > one home this weekend and check some of the surrounding > components. Hopefully it is something very simple to replace. I'll have > a probe. > > Thanks! > > Aaron. > > > Peter Coghlan via cctalk writes: > >>> >>> Thanks for the information, Peter. It makes me want to try and test a >>> few of the components around the flyback. >>> >> >> It would also be good to check the stuff like voltages on the base of the CRT >> and that the CRT heater is glowing. You could have a problem that is nothing >> to do with the flyback. (I'm assuming the brightness control is turned up). >> >>> >>> Thanks again, >>> >> >> You're welcome. >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan. >> >>> >>> Aaron. >>> From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 28 11:10:47 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 16:10:47 +0000 Subject: Diablo 3x pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'll have to give mine a look. I hate that foam. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 9:00:28 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Diablo 3x pictures Was working on some Drives this week, and took some pictures of it disassembled. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/diablo/photos/Diablo_33F/ The prefilter was orange crumblefoam. I took a look at my NOS ones and they have a greenish prefilter that still appears to be OK. The gasket going up to the plastic basket that holds the pack is crublefoam as well. I'm going to try some 3/8" x 1/2" Norprene foam strip as a replacement, with polyurethane glue over the seam. The door latch and load lamp is driving me nuts. Dug out my extender card this morning to try and figure out why the driver transistors aren't turning on. Tranistors, diodes are fine, and the J9 board that drives it works in another drive. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 11:13:15 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 17:13:15 +0100 Subject: Diablo 3x pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:10 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'll have to give mine a look. I hate that foam. There seem to be 2 types. One turns to a sticky goo, the other turns to dust. I refer to them both as 'Evil Foam'. I have just removed some from the drives of an RX01 (the older drives, on the solid cast chassis, have foam air filters behind the spindle motors, I think mine were putting more dust in than they removed!) -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 28 11:20:21 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 09:20:21 -0700 Subject: Diablo 3x pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/28/17 9:13 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:10 PM, dwight via cctalk > wrote: >> I'll have to give mine a look. I hate that foam. > > There seem to be 2 types. One turns to a sticky goo, the other turns to > dust. I refer to them both as 'Evil Foam'. I have just removed some from > the drives of an RX01 (the older drives, on the solid cast chassis, have > foam air filters behind the spindle motors, I think mine were putting more > dust in than they removed!) > > -tony > I wish I knew of a gasket material I could trust to survive. Norprene is polypropylene based, as opposed to PVC, polyurethane, etc. Home weather stripping is made from polyurethane. This is the stuff I'm going to try http://www.ebay.com/itm/281947335227 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 28 11:35:26 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 09:35:26 -0700 Subject: Diablo 3x pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21ca87fb-1afa-1049-016c-c54566bf9012@sydex.com> On 04/28/2017 09:20 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I wish I knew of a gasket material I could trust to survive. > Norprene is polypropylene based, as opposed to PVC, polyurethane, > etc. > > Home weather stripping is made from polyurethane. > > This is the stuff I'm going to try > http://www.ebay.com/itm/281947335227 It's hard to beat butyl foam rubber. They build boats with it--and I think it's also used on lab equipment where contact with corrosive solvents is anticipated. It's expensive, though. --Chuck From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Apr 28 11:41:51 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 17:41:51 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87a870xz5c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Hi Tony, Thanks for the information, that is all very useful! I think I will open up my VT420 which is working nicely to compare the glow in the base followed by checking the voltages, as you describe. Thanks again! Aaron. Tony Duell writes: > On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 4:38 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk > wrote: >> Yes we checked for the glow. It's very dim but it is there. I will bring > > What do you mean by 'very dim'? It should be a distinct orange glow, > best seen looking > up the base of the CRT. > > I normally start by checking the CRT pin voltages. There's nothing on > the pins of > a monochrome CRT that can't be measured with a normal multimeter. The sort of > voltages I would expect are : > > pin 2 -- cathode -- 70V-100V > pin 1 or pin 5 -- control grid (the 2 pins are linked inside the CRT) -- perhaps > 10V-20V less than the cathode > > pin3,pin4 -- heater. One will be grounded (0V). The other will be around 11V-12V > > pin6, pin7 -- anodes. I forget which is the first anode and which is the second > (focus) anode, but expect a few hundred V -- say 400V-800V on each of them. > > The higher voltages (cathode, anodes) will come from the flyback transformer > in the horizontal output stage, so if they're all missing, suspect problems > there. If the heater voltage is low, suspect PSU problems. > > I assume you have the printset (I think I got it from bitsavers). The monitor > section circuit looks very standard to me. > > -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 12:01:35 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:01:35 -0400 Subject: Tandon TM-100-1 electronics repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 11:17 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 27 Apr 2017, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > >> Additionally, for a testing framework to poke signals through the >> drive for debugging during the repair... > > You should check out a couple of disk utility programs for the Model 4: > > Super Utility 4/4P > Hyperzap 3.2C Thanks for the tip! > If you hook up a working drive to boot from, one of those should help to > exercise/exorcise the bad drive. :-) Right. I have one perfectly working mech and one that's got read problems. I did locate the other boxes of TRS-80 floppies I was searching for (I put them away, on a bottom shelf. Doh!) In there was a set of (original) Dysan test floppies and an original Floppy Doctor disc (instructions at https://archive.org/download/Floppy_Disk_Diagnostic_1980_Dave_Stambaugh/Floppy_Disk_Diagnostic_1980_Dave_Stambaugh.pdf) I learned a couple of things last night - On the working drive, the speed (which looked OK on the strobe disc) was clocking in from 199.8-201.2 ms per index. The other drive is around 198.9-199.8, a bit slow but not much. The not-working drive passes the "A" test (write protect, status bits and index strobe), but fails the "B" test claiming there is no data received from the drive. I did swap the boards between the two mechs. The problems stay with the suspect mech, and the good mech works with either boardset. Since the index detector and the motors are good in the bad drive, I'm left with the hypothesis that the head has failed. Moving a scope upstairs will likely be highly informative. So that's where I'm at - the drive was working before the power was jiggled and now it's not and it doesn't appear to be the electronics. Thanks for all the responses. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 28 12:18:47 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 10:18:47 -0700 Subject: Tandon TM-100-1 electronics repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0f413547-3ac7-fa1f-cab1-0a18826d7d82@sydex.com> On 04/28/2017 10:01 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > So that's where I'm at - the drive was working before the power was > jiggled and now it's not and it doesn't appear to be the > electronics. Make sure that the head is making good physical contact with the medium. Sometimes the head suspension can get damaged and lose contact. Use an ohmmeter to check for continuity in the head windings. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 28 12:25:37 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 10:25:37 -0700 Subject: Diablo 3x pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32087bdb-db5b-8681-670c-ee6b1cb41ab9@bitsavers.org> On 4/28/17 9:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > The door latch and load lamp is driving me nuts. Dug out my extender card this morning > to try and figure out why the driver transistors aren't turning on. Quick work once I could probe the IC pins. A gate on the J2 card was always asserting "head in motion", which is one of the things that keeps the pack from unlocking. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 14:35:54 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 15:35:54 -0400 Subject: Tandon TM-100-1 electronics repair In-Reply-To: <0f413547-3ac7-fa1f-cab1-0a18826d7d82@sydex.com> References: <0f413547-3ac7-fa1f-cab1-0a18826d7d82@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 04/28/2017 10:01 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > >> So that's where I'm at - the drive was working before the power was >> jiggled and now it's not and it doesn't appear to be the >> electronics. > > Make sure that the head is making good physical contact with the medium. > Sometimes the head suspension can get damaged and lose contact. I will check for that, but it was working minutes before I bumped the power strip and it stopped working immediately after (it was the boot drive - the machine failed to reboot after the momentary power loss and the diskette was not damaged - the same diskette boots in the other TM-100 when it's strapped as :0/DS0. > Use an ohmmeter to check for continuity in the head windings. Yes. That was my plan. I have a dead 1541 because the read head is open, so I've seen it before. I accidentally ran a drive test with the head unplugged - same results as when plugged in, so I'm really leaning towards a toasted head, sadly. Checking current auction prices on TM-100-2 drives... wow... they sure got pricey. They are a long way from "how many do you want? Take two, they're small" days. I think I have a bare drive on the bookshelf out at my farm. Have to go look for that now. Thanks, -ethan From w9gb at icloud.com Fri Apr 28 12:28:09 2017 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 12:28:09 -0500 Subject: Reviving VT220? Message-ID: <50C6E87F-D377-4376-97AE-286DD6543B71@icloud.com> For your education, Google search "Flyback transformer" There are a number of rebuilders, replacements, and substations. B&H Electronics https://www.bhelectronics.com/products/dc-dc-power-products/isolated-flyback-transformers.html Pactran http://pactran.com/why-pacific-transformer/?gclid=CNWWzLzVx9MCFQkaaQodop0BTQ greg Chicago Sent from iPhone 6s From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 28 13:05:33 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 19:05:33 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <50C6E87F-D377-4376-97AE-286DD6543B71@icloud.com> References: <50C6E87F-D377-4376-97AE-286DD6543B71@icloud.com> Message-ID: <004201d2c04a$08803ae0$1980b0a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gregory > Beat via cctech > Sent: 28 April 2017 18:28 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Reviving VT220? > > For your education, Google search "Flyback transformer" > > There are a number of rebuilders, replacements, and substations. > > B&H Electronics > https://www.bhelectronics.com/products/dc-dc-power-products/isolated- > flyback-transformers.html > > Pactran > http://pactran.com/why-pacific- > transformer/?gclid=CNWWzLzVx9MCFQkaaQodop0BTQ > It would be great to know the spec for the flybacks for common terminals such as the VT series. Is there such a list anywhere? Regards Rob From useddec at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 16:42:03 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 16:42:03 -0500 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: I have most VT100 family, some VT220 and VT330 parts, including all 3 colors of new VT330 CRTs. Please contact me off list if interested. On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 7:27 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > A colleague and I are trying to get a VT220 working again as it recently > > died on us. We are hoping to set up a few items for the mid-80s > > (including this terminal) to show the graduands what it would have been > > like if they were doing their CompSci degree 30 years ago. > > > > It looks to me like the flyback is dead. There is a lot of soot and > > there looks like there is some damage to the top of the transformer, > > better seen in the second image. > > > > http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/sparse/flyback1.jpg > > http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/sparse/flyback2.jpg > > > > I think the soot is fairly typical of what accumulates on high voltage > components in a city environment. I'm not sure this indicates any damage > to > it but it may well be faulty without showing any signs of damage. > > > > > The terminal powers on and does the usual beeping but nothing is > > displayed on the screen. Does anyone have any advice about what to do > > here? Are there any sources of compatible flyback transformers? > > > > I have a VT220 which also appears to have a faulty flyback. This results > in > it drawing too much current from the power supply. I am not certain the > flyback is faulty but I have eliminated most of the other components which > are likely to be responsible. > > I have looked for replacement flybacks or equivelants but I have never > found > any. Someone mentioned that they might have VT220 parts available on the > list > some time ago but I didn't get anywhere in following that up. > > > > > We have a second VT220 which exhibits the same behaviour, hopefully for > > a different reason so we can try and cobble two into one. > > > > I have a second VT220 which works and I have used it to compare readings > with my faulty one. I also tried swapping some of the suspect components > but this failed to take suspicion off the flyback. I am reluctant to try > swapping the flybacks over in case I cause damage to the working VT220. > > While the two flybacks appear likely to be electrically similar, I am not > certain of this and they are physically different - one is PCB mounted > and the other is chassis mounted with flying leads to the PCB as far as > I recall. They have different part numbers, 16-21181-01 and 16-26299-01. > > > > > Any thoughts / advice would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Sorry, I haven't been able to provide much help or hope. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Aaron. > > > > > > > > -- > > Aaron Jackson > > PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory > > http://cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Apr 29 08:34:42 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 14:34:42 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> The heater and control pins appear to be giving sensible voltages. The logic of the board is fine, I can type on the terminals keyboard and I get the correct characters on the other end of the serial cable. The PSU is putting out 31v which seems fine? I'm used to discharging the tube before fixing things inside CRTs (usually I only attempt to fix simple things like a broken toggle switch), but I have not managed to get a spark off this monitor. The tube doesn't seem to get charged up at all. I've measured the capacitance of nearly all caps and they seem fine, diodes seem to be working fine. Does this mean it is most likely the flyback transformer? Are there any other bits I should be wary of and test properly? Thanks again for your help. Your voltage listing and advice in general has been very useful. Aaron. Tony Duell writes: > On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 4:38 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk > wrote: >> Yes we checked for the glow. It's very dim but it is there. I will bring > > What do you mean by 'very dim'? It should be a distinct orange glow, > best seen looking > up the base of the CRT. > > I normally start by checking the CRT pin voltages. There's nothing on > the pins of > a monochrome CRT that can't be measured with a normal multimeter. The sort of > voltages I would expect are : > > pin 2 -- cathode -- 70V-100V > pin 1 or pin 5 -- control grid (the 2 pins are linked inside the CRT) -- perhaps > 10V-20V less than the cathode > > pin3,pin4 -- heater. One will be grounded (0V). The other will be around 11V-12V > > pin6, pin7 -- anodes. I forget which is the first anode and which is the second > (focus) anode, but expect a few hundred V -- say 400V-800V on each of them. > > The higher voltages (cathode, anodes) will come from the flyback transformer > in the horizontal output stage, so if they're all missing, suspect problems > there. If the heater voltage is low, suspect PSU problems. > > I assume you have the printset (I think I got it from bitsavers). The monitor > section circuit looks very standard to me. > > -tony > >> one home this weekend and check some of the surrounding >> components. Hopefully it is something very simple to replace. I'll have >> a probe. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Aaron. >> >> >> Peter Coghlan via cctalk writes: >> >>>> >>>> Thanks for the information, Peter. It makes me want to try and test a >>>> few of the components around the flyback. >>>> >>> >>> It would also be good to check the stuff like voltages on the base of the CRT >>> and that the CRT heater is glowing. You could have a problem that is nothing >>> to do with the flyback. (I'm assuming the brightness control is turned up). >>> >>>> >>>> Thanks again, >>>> >>> >>> You're welcome. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Peter Coghlan. >>> >>>> >>>> Aaron. >>>> From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 09:42:52 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 15:42:52 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 2:34 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: > The heater and control pins appear to be giving sensible voltages. The > logic of the board is fine, I can type on the terminals keyboard and I > get the correct characters on the other end of the serial cable. The PSU > is putting out 31v which seems fine? Err, the PSU has 3 voltage outputs, +5V, +12V, -12V. I am not sure where you are measuring 31V between, but that doesn't sound 'fine' to me. On the other hand, if the +12V rail was 31V the CRT heater would be burnt out. If the +5V was 31V then the logic ICs would be totally fried so it wouldn't respond to the keyboard. So I suspect a measurement error.... > > I'm used to discharging the tube before fixing things inside CRTs > (usually I only attempt to fix simple things like a broken toggle > switch), but I have not managed to get a spark off this monitor. The > tube doesn't seem to get charged up at all. I've measured the > capacitance of nearly all caps and they seem fine, diodes seem to be > working fine. Does this mean it is most likely the flyback transformer? According to the schematic of the monitor section (p16 of the 17 page .pdf file I have) there is a bleeder (discharging) resistor between the EHT output and ground inside the flyback. This would discharge the CRT in a few seconds I think. So you probably wouldn't be able to get a spark. I assume you don't have an EHT meter. > Are there any other bits I should be wary of and test properly? > > Thanks again for your help. Your voltage listing and advice in general > has been very useful. Do you have a TV-rate video monitor with a composite video input? If so, connect it to the BNC socket on the logic board. That's a video output. If you get no video there, then you need to troubleshoot the video logic first. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 10:13:02 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 10:13:02 -0500 Subject: HP 1331A X-Y display blanking Message-ID: <387943be-c824-6261-486b-4ec4182704ce@gmail.com> Has anyone got a manual for an HP 1331A X-Y display? It's a storage-tube device, and I'm curious to know if there's a way of triggering the erase function remotely rather than having to physically prod the erase button on the front. The rear just has X-Y-Z inputs, and I *think* that X-Y are supposed to be in the order of +/- 1V, while Z is the intensity with 0V being full and around 1V being off. Maybe throwing a negative voltage at Z erases, or something, though. cheers Jules From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Apr 29 10:19:03 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 16:19:03 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <874lx7xmvs.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Seems to be working fine as a terminal hooked up to the TV which is good news. I am sure you are correct about me having made a measurement error there... I'll take another look at the schematics. Thanks again, Aaron. > On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 2:34 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: >> The heater and control pins appear to be giving sensible voltages. The >> logic of the board is fine, I can type on the terminals keyboard and I >> get the correct characters on the other end of the serial cable. The PSU >> is putting out 31v which seems fine? > > Err, the PSU has 3 voltage outputs, +5V, +12V, -12V. I am not sure where you > are measuring 31V between, but that doesn't sound 'fine' to me. > > On the other hand, if the +12V rail was 31V the CRT heater would be burnt > out. If the +5V was 31V then the logic ICs would be totally fried so it wouldn't > respond to the keyboard. > > So I suspect a measurement error.... > > >> >> I'm used to discharging the tube before fixing things inside CRTs >> (usually I only attempt to fix simple things like a broken toggle >> switch), but I have not managed to get a spark off this monitor. The >> tube doesn't seem to get charged up at all. I've measured the >> capacitance of nearly all caps and they seem fine, diodes seem to be >> working fine. Does this mean it is most likely the flyback transformer? > > According to the schematic of the monitor section (p16 of the 17 page > .pdf file I have) there is a bleeder (discharging) resistor between the EHT > output and ground inside the flyback. This would discharge the CRT in > a few seconds I think. So you probably wouldn't be able to get a spark. > > I assume you don't have an EHT meter. > >> Are there any other bits I should be wary of and test properly? >> >> Thanks again for your help. Your voltage listing and advice in general >> has been very useful. > > Do you have a TV-rate video monitor with a composite video input? If > so, connect it to the BNC socket on the logic board. That's a video > output. If you get no video there, then you need to troubleshoot the > video logic first. > > -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 10:22:45 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 16:22:45 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <874lx7xmvs.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> <874lx7xmvs.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: > Seems to be working fine as a terminal hooked up to the TV which is good > news. I am sure you are correct about me having made a measurement error > there... So the logic side is working. The problem is very likely to be in the monitor circuit, page 16 of the schematics. What test gear do you have? Do you have a 'scope, for example? Can you get anying on the screen if you adjust the brightness preset? -tony From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Apr 29 10:44:53 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 16:44:53 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> <874lx7xmvs.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <8737crxloq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Unfortunately I do not have an oscilloscope anymore. I've been trying to find a cheap one on eBay for a few months but the prices seem very high these days. I might be able to borrow one. For now I just have a true RMS multimeter. I've tried both extremes of the contrast and brightness but the screen is completely off. This is the amber version of the 220 if that makes any difference. I can't hear any high pitched whining from the flyback, which I can hear from my 420. All the large caps seem to be giving a very close reading considering I haven't taken them off the board. This terminal was working fine until about two months ago. It was in a air conditioned server room and probably hadn't been powered off for 5 years or so until we had a long power cut, after which it didn't work. Does this provide any insight? Thanks, Aaron. Tony Duell writes: > On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: >> Seems to be working fine as a terminal hooked up to the TV which is good >> news. I am sure you are correct about me having made a measurement error >> there... > > So the logic side is working. The problem is very likely to be in the > monitor circuit, > page 16 of the schematics. > > What test gear do you have? Do you have a 'scope, for example? > > Can you get anying on the screen if you adjust the brightness preset? > > -tony From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 29 10:50:04 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 10:50:04 -0500 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <5904B62C.6050107@pico-systems.com> On 04/29/2017 08:34 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > The heater and control pins appear to be giving sensible voltages. The > logic of the board is fine, I can type on the terminals keyboard and I > get the correct characters on the other end of the serial cable. The PSU > is putting out 31v which seems fine? > > I'm used to discharging the tube before fixing things inside CRTs > (usually I only attempt to fix simple things like a broken toggle > switch), but I have not managed to get a spark off this monitor. The > tube doesn't seem to get charged up at all. If everything is working, even a small monochrome monitor should give a bit of a crackle (might have to listen closely in a quiet place) and you should be able to feel the electrostatic field on the hairs on the back of your hand for a few seconds after powering on. > I've measured the > capacitance of nearly all caps and they seem fine, diodes seem to be > working fine. Does this mean it is most likely the flyback transformer? > Since it doesn't smoke, I'm thinking the horizontal sweep transistor may have gone out. It may have shorted, which then may have burned up the primary winding in the flyback (if left on long enough). I'd check that transistor for a short, and then you can trace a few traces to identify the primary terminals on the flyback and see if they are an open circuit. Jon From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 10:50:36 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 16:50:36 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <8737crxloq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> <874lx7xmvs.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <8737crxloq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: > Unfortunately I do not have an oscilloscope anymore. I've been trying to > find a cheap one on eBay for a few months but the prices seem very high > these days. I might be able to borrow one. For now I just have a true > RMS multimeter. > > I've tried both extremes of the contrast and brightness but the screen > is completely off. This is the amber version of the 220 if that makes > any difference. I can't hear any high pitched whining from the flyback, > which I can hear from my 420. All the large caps seem to be giving a > very close reading considering I haven't taken them off the board. If you have a few hundred volts on pins 6 and 7 of the CRT then the horizontal output stage must be working. I believe you've checked this. I assume you used the terminal's ground (e.g. the outside of that BNC connector) as the reference for all voltage measurements. The colour of the screen phosphor should make no difference at all. AFAIK the only difference between the various colours is the CRT. What voltages do you measure on the 'ends' of the brightness preset? With respect to terminal ground (as above) of course? > > This terminal was working fine until about two months ago. It was in a > air conditioned server room and probably hadn't been powered off for 5 > years or so until we had a long power cut, after which it didn't > work. Does this provide any insight? Normally the power supply fails to start when that happens, but we know the power supply is fine since the logic side is working. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 11:14:30 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 11:14:30 -0500 Subject: HP 1331A X-Y display blanking In-Reply-To: References: <387943be-c824-6261-486b-4ec4182704ce@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 04/29/2017 10:31 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: I don't but. If there is > not a connector on the back, you will need to route the signal to one. > > Find the erase button and look at the voltages. The "erase" signal will > either be grounded to function or will be raise to a voltage level +5 or > +12 for example. > > Once you have that, all you need is a 2 wire connector, a 1/8" audio > for example. [GAH, re-send because 'reply' seems to go to the individual poster now instead of back to the list... ugh :/ Sorry Pete, you're getting two copies ] Yeah, I'd thought about doing that, too - but then I wondered if pulling the Z axis negative triggered the erase; that would seem like a neat way of doing it. I suppose that might be functionality I could add myself, too, and would avoid having to modify the external panels in any way - however space inside the case is extremely limited. > There are manuals on Ebay but for something this simple it is your > call. We need a bitsavers equivalent for test equipment! :-) cheers Jules From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Apr 29 11:45:25 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 17:45:25 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> <874lx7xmvs.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <8737crxloq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <871ssbxivu.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> I have measured these again because I thought they seemed a bit strange. I must have probed the wrong pad on the circuit board earlier (my probes don't fit in the CRT header). Here are all the voltages and they don't seem too promising: pin 1, green, 4.3v, should be 50v to 80v pin 2, yellow, 6.6v should be 70v to 100v pin 3, brown, 12v - fine pin 4, black, 0v - fine pin 5, white, 0v, fine, goes to case ground pin 6, red, 0v, should be 400v to 800v pin 7, blue, 0v, should be 400v to 800v The voltage from the brightness control ranges between 2.4v and 5.5v, and matches pin 1 above. Tony Duell writes: > On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: >> Unfortunately I do not have an oscilloscope anymore. I've been trying to >> find a cheap one on eBay for a few months but the prices seem very high >> these days. I might be able to borrow one. For now I just have a true >> RMS multimeter. >> >> I've tried both extremes of the contrast and brightness but the screen >> is completely off. This is the amber version of the 220 if that makes >> any difference. I can't hear any high pitched whining from the flyback, >> which I can hear from my 420. All the large caps seem to be giving a >> very close reading considering I haven't taken them off the board. > > If you have a few hundred volts on pins 6 and 7 of the CRT then the > horizontal output stage must be working. I believe you've checked > this. I assume you used the terminal's ground (e.g. the outside of that > BNC connector) as the reference for all voltage measurements. > > The colour of the screen phosphor should make no difference at all. > AFAIK the only difference between the various colours is the CRT. > > What voltages do you measure on the 'ends' of the brightness > preset? With respect to terminal ground (as above) of course? > > >> >> This terminal was working fine until about two months ago. It was in a >> air conditioned server room and probably hadn't been powered off for 5 >> years or so until we had a long power cut, after which it didn't >> work. Does this provide any insight? > > Normally the power supply fails to start when that happens, but we > know the power supply is fine since the logic side is working. > > -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 12:29:32 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 18:29:32 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <871ssbxivu.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> <874lx7xmvs.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <8737crxloq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <871ssbxivu.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: > I have measured these again because I thought they seemed a bit > strange. I must have probed the wrong pad on the circuit board earlier > (my probes don't fit in the CRT header). > > Here are all the voltages and they don't seem too promising: > > pin 1, green, 4.3v, should be 50v to 80v > pin 2, yellow, 6.6v should be 70v to 100v > pin 3, brown, 12v - fine > pin 4, black, 0v - fine > pin 5, white, 0v, fine, goes to case ground > pin 6, red, 0v, should be 400v to 800v > pin 7, blue, 0v, should be 400v to 800v > > The voltage from the brightness control ranges between 2.4v and 5.5v, > and matches pin 1 above. This looks very much like a problem with the horizontal deflection circuit. Maybe the flyback transformer, maybe not. Without a 'scope, troubleshooting is going to be difficult. But start by testing the horizontal output transistor (Q202 on the printset). For a start, just check it for shorts and opens. But if it has failed, don't just replace it, as a problem with the flyback transformer can destroy the new transistor. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 29 13:01:59 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 11:01:59 -0700 Subject: FFS: Elgar IPS1100 UPS Message-ID: Much of what used to be power-hungry connectivity hardware for me has gone low-power, so I'm scaling back my UPS setup some. I've got an Elgar IPS1100, nominally rated at 1KVA sine-wave continuous (9.2A 60 Hz 120VAC). It's a pretty good-sized UPS, with fan cooling. It takes 48V in SLA cells (has an internal shelf for 8 6V 12AH ones), but I've always run it from 4 garden-tractor batteries. It's pretty good-sized; about 12"x13"x15" and heavy (big transformer). Made in 1990, has 6 AC receptacles on the back along with an RS-232 connector for status notification. Back in the day, this was a pretty high-end unit; manufacture date is 05/90. Yours for shipping; batteries not included. --Chuck From pete at petelancashire.com Sat Apr 29 10:31:36 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 08:31:36 -0700 Subject: HP 1331A X-Y display blanking In-Reply-To: <387943be-c824-6261-486b-4ec4182704ce@gmail.com> References: <387943be-c824-6261-486b-4ec4182704ce@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't but. If there is not a connector on the back, you will need to route the signal to one. Find the erase button and look at the voltages. The "erase" signal will either be grounded to function or will be raise to a voltage level +5 or +12 for example. Once you have that, all you need is a 2 wire connector, a 1/8" audio for example. There are manuals on Ebay but for something this simple it is your call. On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:13 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Has anyone got a manual for an HP 1331A X-Y display? It's a storage-tube > device, and I'm curious to know if there's a way of triggering the erase > function remotely rather than having to physically prod the erase button on > the front. > > The rear just has X-Y-Z inputs, and I *think* that X-Y are supposed to be > in the order of +/- 1V, while Z is the intensity with 0V being full and > around 1V being off. Maybe throwing a negative voltage at Z erases, or > something, though. > > cheers > > Jules > > > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Apr 29 11:48:27 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 17:48:27 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <5904B62C.6050107@pico-systems.com> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> <5904B62C.6050107@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <87ziezw46c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Hi Jon, I can hear a light crackle but not a whine. Are you referring to Q202? The centre pin is 11v, the other two are at 0v. Thanks, Aaron Jon Elson writes: > On 04/29/2017 08:34 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> The heater and control pins appear to be giving sensible voltages. The >> logic of the board is fine, I can type on the terminals keyboard and I >> get the correct characters on the other end of the serial cable. The PSU >> is putting out 31v which seems fine? >> >> I'm used to discharging the tube before fixing things inside CRTs >> (usually I only attempt to fix simple things like a broken toggle >> switch), but I have not managed to get a spark off this monitor. The >> tube doesn't seem to get charged up at all. > If everything is working, even a small monochrome monitor > should give a bit of a crackle (might have to listen closely > in a quiet place) and you should be able to feel the > electrostatic field on the hairs on the back of your hand > for a few seconds after powering on. >> I've measured the >> capacitance of nearly all caps and they seem fine, diodes seem to be >> working fine. Does this mean it is most likely the flyback transformer? >> > Since it doesn't smoke, I'm thinking the horizontal sweep > transistor may have gone out. It may have shorted, which > then may have burned up the primary winding in the flyback > (if left on long enough). I'd check that transistor for a > short, and then you can trace a few traces to identify the > primary terminals on the flyback and see if they are an open > circuit. > > Jon From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 12:28:45 2017 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 13:28:45 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation Message-ID: The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like a four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't need to be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. What would you suggest? -- Michael Thompson From ams at gnu.org Sat Apr 29 12:36:04 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 13:36:04 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: (message from Michael Thompson via cctech on Sat, 29 Apr 2017 13:28:45 -0400) References: Message-ID: The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like a four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't need to be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. What would you suggest? Siglent or Rigol are good bang for the buck. Rigol has a four channel one, and they are far below 1000 USD. I think Keysight made some cheap-er scope recently too. Or if you are in the states, get a old Tek -- you can get those really cheap. From w9gb at icloud.com Sat Apr 29 12:40:04 2017 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 12:40:04 -0500 Subject: Reviving VT220? Message-ID: The High Voltage capacitors 600 to 2,000 VDC have a finite life. Unless you checked for leakage or ESR .... be suspect of values in range. Since you are in the UK, Farnell/element14 may be the best parts distributor. ASC Metalized Polyester Film, 6 kVolts http://www.justradios.com/ASCcapacitors.html Metalized Polypropylene Film, 1600 volts http://www.justradios.com/MPMcapacitors.html ==== DEC VT-220 : AMP/Tyco Mate-N-Lok http://avitech.com.au/?p=252 greg Sent from iPad Air Sent from iPad Air From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 29 12:53:16 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 10:53:16 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <707162b5-bb70-13e9-91da-36682c31dfbb@sydex.com> On 04/29/2017 10:28 AM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: > The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like > a four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't > need to be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. The Rigol scopes have the features that you're looking for in your price range. Dave on the YT EEVBlog has spent some time on them. There have been some notable software bugs, but Rigol seems to be pretty diligent in eradicating them. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 29 12:59:24 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 12:59:24 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5904D47C.3040009@pico-systems.com> On 04/29/2017 12:28 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: > The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like a > four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't need to > be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. > > What would you suggest? > Really NEW, or just new for your museum? I got a Tek 2465 on eBay that I am quite happy with, for quite a bit less money. There are some decent import digital scopes (such as Rigol) that many people seem to find good. If you are not familiar with digital scopes, there are some gotchas there. You can't tell the trigger rate from looking at the screen, but then they can see what happened BEFORE the trigger event, and can freeze a single-shot event for you to look at. The good Tek DPO scopes have not come down enough to meet your price range (yet). Jon From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 13:15:36 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 18:15:36 +0000 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <5904D47C.3040009@pico-systems.com> References: <5904D47C.3040009@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I would suggest just about any used Tektronix TDS 200mhz or higher 4 channel scope with a good display- from the mid 90s or newer. Make sure to look up the model year to ensure it has reliable caps. I have not been a fan of the new designed-in-china test equipment like the 'rigol' On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 10:59 Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 04/29/2017 12:28 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: > > The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like a > > four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't need to > > be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. > > > > What would you suggest? > > > Really NEW, or just new for your museum? I got a Tek 2465 > on eBay that I am quite happy with, for quite a bit less > money. There are some decent import digital scopes (such as > Rigol) that many people seem to find good. > If you are not familiar with digital scopes, there are some > gotchas there. You can't tell the trigger rate from looking > at the screen, but then they can see what happened BEFORE > the trigger event, and can freeze a single-shot event for > you to look at. The good Tek DPO scopes have not come down > enough to meet your price range (yet). > > Jon > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Apr 29 13:29:06 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 11:29:06 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <5904D47C.3040009@pico-systems.com> References: <5904D47C.3040009@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 4/29/2017 10:59 AM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 04/29/2017 12:28 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: >> The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like a >> four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't >> need to >> be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. >> >> What would you suggest? >> > Really NEW, or just new for your museum? I got a Tek 2465 on eBay > that I am quite happy with, for quite a bit less money. There are > some decent import digital scopes (such as Rigol) that many people > seem to find good. > If you are not familiar with digital scopes, there are some gotchas > there. You can't tell the trigger rate from looking at the screen, > but then they can see what happened BEFORE the trigger event, and can > freeze a single-shot event for you to look at. The good Tek DPO > scopes have not come down enough to meet your price range (yet). > > Jon Right now is prime time to evaluate and snag a HP Agilent 16700 with digital scope channels and logic analyzer channels to boot. You might be able to snag one along with a new unit. WRT to old equipment the HP Aglient 16xxx logic analyzers are pretty much the best for every device I've ever worked on. I don't know that the glut of really nice hardware will last a long time. Another thing to consider is the Saleae line of digital probes. There is a 16 channel unit with analog capture feature now. That unit if you can capture at a rate that your hardware can handle will capture trace till you run out of space on the attached pc support device. If you attach it to a signal that is serial, every channel on the logic analyzer becomes a serial protocol analyzer, and will export ascii serial to a file if you are doing that task, as a side benefit. I'd budget at most 1/4 of your $1000 for that purchase if the donation allows that. i've got the 8 channel unit. Beware the saleae type units may be 3 v input, be sure to check that, as my suggestion won't be much use for that case. I've not shopped them lately, but my older 8 channel unit is 3.3 max only, though I've used it on 0 - 5 v thanks jim From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Apr 29 13:36:31 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 19:36:31 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <5904B62C.6050107@pico-systems.com> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> <5904B62C.6050107@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <87wpa3vz68.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > Since it doesn't smoke, I'm thinking the horizontal sweep > transistor may have gone out. It may have shorted, which > then may have burned up the primary winding in the flyback > (if left on long enough). I'd check that transistor for a > short, and then you can trace a few traces to identify the > primary terminals on the flyback and see if they are an open > circuit. Hmm, not good news. zero ohm between pin one and three of the transistor you mentioned. To be fair the board around it looks a little brown, but I assumed this was just because it would have got hot. Could replacing this cause damage to the flyback? I seem to have a low resistance on what I think is the primary coil. I am wondering if there was also a power surge when we had the power failure that killed the terminal. If so, perhaps this is the only reason why the transistor may have died. Thanks, Aaron. From cube1 at charter.net Sat Apr 29 14:03:06 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 14:03:06 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <707162b5-bb70-13e9-91da-36682c31dfbb@sydex.com> References: <707162b5-bb70-13e9-91da-36682c31dfbb@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 29, 2017, at 12:53, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > >> On 04/29/2017 10:28 AM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: >> The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like >> a four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't >> need to be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. > > The Rigol scopes have the features that you're looking for in your price > range. Dave on the YT EEVBlog has spent some time on them. > > There have been some notable software bugs, but Rigol seems to be pretty > diligent in eradicating them. > > --Chuck I have a Rigol DSO and absolutely love it. Bought it from Saelig - they offer a nice discount to members of the EEVBLOG forum. I have seen a couple of updates since I bought it. Look for a sale where you can get some of the add-ons thrown in at no additional cost. From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 15:30:05 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 16:30:05 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/29/2017 01:28 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: > The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like a > four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't need to > be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. > > What would you suggest? > I use a RIgol DSO at work to replace a 200mhz Tek with power issues. Far better scope. For the money we paid, 4 channels and wide band its very decent. Being able to get screen grabs to a USB stick is a big plus. I personally have a Rigol DS815T spec analyser with tracking generator and its a good performer. Not up to the standards of a R&S FSH6 but about 1/15th the price. Allison From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 18:15:33 2017 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 19:15:33 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <180115C2-7D1C-40ED-BE3F-C8F83C188BFC@gmail.com> Thanks for the recommendation Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 29, 2017, at 4:30 PM, allison wrote: > >> On 04/29/2017 01:28 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: >> The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like a >> four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't need to >> be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. >> >> What would you suggest? >> > I use a RIgol DSO at work to replace a 200mhz Tek with power issues. Far better scope. > For the money we paid, 4 channels and wide band its very decent. Being able to get > screen grabs to a USB stick is a big plus. > > I personally have a Rigol DS815T spec analyser with tracking generator and its a good performer. > Not up to the standards of a R&S FSH6 but about 1/15th the price. > > > Allison From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 29 21:07:34 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 02:07:34 +0000 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <180115C2-7D1C-40ED-BE3F-C8F83C188BFC@gmail.com> References: , <180115C2-7D1C-40ED-BE3F-C8F83C188BFC@gmail.com> Message-ID: If it is your only scope I recommend an analog scope of at least 100 MHz, with dual trace and delayed sweep. If you already have an analog scope, I recommend a logic analyzer instead of a digital scope. If you already have both above, I recommend a digital scope. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Michael Thompson via cctech Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:15:33 PM To: allison Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation Thanks for the recommendation Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 29, 2017, at 4:30 PM, allison wrote: > >> On 04/29/2017 01:28 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: >> The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like a >> four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't need to >> be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. >> >> What would you suggest? >> > I use a RIgol DSO at work to replace a 200mhz Tek with power issues. Far better scope. > For the money we paid, 4 channels and wide band its very decent. Being able to get > screen grabs to a USB stick is a big plus. > > I personally have a Rigol DS815T spec analyser with tracking generator and its a good performer. > Not up to the standards of a R&S FSH6 but about 1/15th the price. > > > Allison From useddec at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 22:53:30 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 22:53:30 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <180115C2-7D1C-40ED-BE3F-C8F83C188BFC@gmail.com> References: <180115C2-7D1C-40ED-BE3F-C8F83C188BFC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've almost always used TEK scopes, and liked them. What ever you choose, see if they will cut you a good deal for being a educational or non-profit. A lot of companies will, especially on a discontinued model. On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 6:15 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thanks for the recommendation > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 29, 2017, at 4:30 PM, allison wrote: > > > >> On 04/29/2017 01:28 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: > >> The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like a > >> four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't need > to > >> be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. > >> > >> What would you suggest? > >> > > I use a RIgol DSO at work to replace a 200mhz Tek with power issues. > Far better scope. > > For the money we paid, 4 channels and wide band its very decent. Being > able to get > > screen grabs to a USB stick is a big plus. > > > > I personally have a Rigol DS815T spec analyser with tracking generator > and its a good performer. > > Not up to the standards of a R&S FSH6 but about 1/15th the price. > > > > > > Allison > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 00:59:45 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:59:45 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <87wpa3vz68.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> <5904B62C.6050107@pico-systems.com> <87wpa3vz68.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 7:36 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> Since it doesn't smoke, I'm thinking the horizontal sweep >> transistor may have gone out. It may have shorted, which >> then may have burned up the primary winding in the flyback >> (if left on long enough). I'd check that transistor for a >> short, and then you can trace a few traces to identify the >> primary terminals on the flyback and see if they are an open >> circuit. > > Hmm, not good news. zero ohm between pin one and three of the transistor > you mentioned. To be fair the board around it looks a little brown, but Is this with the transistor soldered to the board or removed? If the latter then the transistor is shorted base-emitter. If the former then you are measuring the resistance of L200 and the secondary of T201 (horizontal drive transformer) in seroes which will be essentially zero. > I assumed this was just because it would have got hot. Could replacing > this cause damage to the flyback? I seem to have a low resistance on > what I think is the primary coil. Most flyback windings have a very low DC resistance. In any case the most common failure is a short between a couple of turns of such a winding which will ruin the AC performance of the transformer but have almost no effect on the resistance. That's why you need to test such a transformer with a ringing tester, not an ohmmeter. -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 00:59:45 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:59:45 +0100 Subject: Reviving VT220? In-Reply-To: <87wpa3vz68.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPNST0VXQ002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87o9vgu1cz.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk> <01QDPSQKUR4S002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <87bmrgy23c.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wpa3qqvh.fsf@awk.rhwyd.co.uk> <5904B62C.6050107@pico-systems.com> <87wpa3vz68.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 7:36 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> Since it doesn't smoke, I'm thinking the horizontal sweep >> transistor may have gone out. It may have shorted, which >> then may have burned up the primary winding in the flyback >> (if left on long enough). I'd check that transistor for a >> short, and then you can trace a few traces to identify the >> primary terminals on the flyback and see if they are an open >> circuit. > > Hmm, not good news. zero ohm between pin one and three of the transistor > you mentioned. To be fair the board around it looks a little brown, but Is this with the transistor soldered to the board or removed? If the latter then the transistor is shorted base-emitter. If the former then you are measuring the resistance of L200 and the secondary of T201 (horizontal drive transformer) in seroes which will be essentially zero. > I assumed this was just because it would have got hot. Could replacing > this cause damage to the flyback? I seem to have a low resistance on > what I think is the primary coil. Most flyback windings have a very low DC resistance. In any case the most common failure is a short between a couple of turns of such a winding which will ruin the AC performance of the transformer but have almost no effect on the resistance. That's why you need to test such a transformer with a ringing tester, not an ohmmeter. -tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 08:14:29 2017 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 09:14:29 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <180115C2-7D1C-40ED-BE3F-C8F83C188BFC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Great idea about looking for a non-profit discount. That might not work for the Chinese 'scopes, but it could make the US 'scopes prices more competitive. On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 11:53 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I've almost always used TEK scopes, and liked them. What ever you choose, > see if they will cut you a good deal for being a educational or non-profit. > A lot of companies will, especially on a discontinued model. > > On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 6:15 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Thanks for the recommendation >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On Apr 29, 2017, at 4:30 PM, allison wrote: >> > >> >> On 04/29/2017 01:28 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: >> >> The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like a >> >> four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't need >> to >> >> be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. >> >> >> >> What would you suggest? >> >> >> > I use a RIgol DSO at work to replace a 200mhz Tek with power issues. >> Far better scope. >> > For the money we paid, 4 channels and wide band its very decent. Being >> able to get >> > screen grabs to a USB stick is a big plus. >> > >> > I personally have a Rigol DS815T spec analyser with tracking generator >> and its a good performer. >> > Not up to the standards of a R&S FSH6 but about 1/15th the price. >> > >> > >> > Allison >> > > -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 08:34:54 2017 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 09:34:54 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <180115C2-7D1C-40ED-BE3F-C8F83C188BFC@gmail.com> Message-ID: We have lots of dual-trace Hitachi 25MHz analog 'scopes that were donated by BMI. They are fine for the low speed work that typically do, and don't have some of the interesting problems that digital 'scopes have. We can get a deep discount on any of the 'scopes that BMI has: https://www.bmisurplus.com/products/category/oscilloscopes. I was looking at some of the mixed-signal 'scopes like the Rigol MSO1104Z. Having a 'scope and a logic analyzer in the same instrument, with both 'scope and logic analyzer triggering would be very nice. On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 10:07 PM, dwight wrote: > If it is your only scope I recommend an analog scope of at least 100 MHz, > with dual trace and delayed sweep. > > If you already have an analog scope, I recommend a logic analyzer instead > of a digital scope. > > If you already have both above, I recommend a digital scope. > > Dwight > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* cctech on behalf of Michael > Thompson via cctech > *Sent:* Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:15:33 PM > *To:* allison > *Cc:* General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > *Subject:* Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation > > Thanks for the recommendation > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 29, 2017, at 4:30 PM, allison wrote: > > > >> On 04/29/2017 01:28 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: > >> The RICM just received $1,000 to buy a new oscilloscope. I would like a > >> four channel. and color would also be nice. The bandwidth doesn't need > to > >> be high because we usually work on ancient equipment. > >> > >> What would you suggest? > >> > > I use a RIgol DSO at work to replace a 200mhz Tek with power issues. > Far better scope. > > For the money we paid, 4 channels and wide band its very decent. Being > able to get > > screen grabs to a USB stick is a big plus. > > > > I personally have a Rigol DS815T spec analyser with tracking generator > and its a good performer. > > Not up to the standards of a R&S FSH6 but about 1/15th the price. > > > > > > Allison > -- Michael Thompson From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Apr 30 09:38:56 2017 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 10:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Bulk tape eraser Message-ID: Looking for recommendations for a bulk tape eraser for SDLT and DLT IV tapes. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 10:33:39 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 12:33:39 -0300 Subject: Bulk tape eraser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd go to the Athana site, they have some degaussers and a nice write-up about what can (and can't) be safely degaussed 2017-04-30 11:38 GMT-03:00 Mike Loewen via cctalk : > > Looking for recommendations for a bulk tape eraser for SDLT and DLT IV > tapes. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 30 10:53:09 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 08:53:09 -0700 Subject: Bulk tape eraser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40dcfe5d-d557-ba0c-1962-5a3a15eaa8ec@sydex.com> On 04/30/2017 07:38 AM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > Looking for recommendations for a bulk tape eraser for SDLT and DLT > IV tapes. If it's just a small quantity to be erased, there are many Radio Shack videotape erasers being offered, some NIB, all for about $20. I've used one for years on floppies and tapes. It's not for erasing piles of tapes, as there's a thermal overload protector on it, limiting the amount of time that you can use it. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 30 10:55:02 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 08:55:02 -0700 Subject: Bulk tape eraser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You may as well run them through a shredder. All modern tapes have embedded servo tracks. On 4/30/17 7:38 AM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > Looking for recommendations for a bulk tape eraser for SDLT and DLT IV tapes. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 30 11:05:41 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 09:05:41 -0700 Subject: Bulk tape eraser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f2ca88f-9f24-3294-d63d-dfb72c9b82b9@sydex.com> I'll add that using the little Radio Shack "high power" device well, is not a simple matter--the trick is to keep the eraser moving and using different angles and distances. If you want a high-power tape *degausser*, be prepared to part with some real cash--the low end seems to start just north of $1000. Many even claim to be able to do hard drives. --chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 30 12:04:58 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 10:04:58 -0700 Subject: Bulk tape eraser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b20ead1-1ac5-6a5e-d849-588928d168f7@sydex.com> On 04/30/2017 08:55 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > You may as well run them through a shredder. All modern tapes have > embedded servo tracks. Certainly not DLT IV tapes--I've done the bulk eraser thing with them and the result re-recorded just fine. But then, DLT IV is hardly modern. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 30 12:52:35 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 10:52:35 -0700 Subject: Something for the P3 you have in your back yard Message-ID: <66f5e12b-93e3-4b65-20bb-31d49e73c59d@bitsavers.org> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Military-IBM-Computer-/201911842662 https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/an-uys-1.htm From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 30 12:55:53 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 10:55:53 -0700 Subject: Bulk tape eraser In-Reply-To: <6b20ead1-1ac5-6a5e-d849-588928d168f7@sydex.com> References: <6b20ead1-1ac5-6a5e-d849-588928d168f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Apr 30, 2017, at 10:04 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/30/2017 08:55 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> You may as well run them through a shredder. All modern tapes have >> embedded servo tracks. > > Certainly not DLT IV tapes--I've done the bulk eraser thing with them > and the result re-recorded just fine. > > But then, DLT IV is hardly modern. > > --Chuck I know you can?t run LTO tapes through one, but if I remember correctly you can do at least the original SDLT tapes. We had a heavy duty degausser in the datacenter, up until a couple years ago. The tape library vendor we were using at the time wanted us to degauss tapes prior to reusing them due to all the issues we were having. That meant degaussing 100?s of tapes a week. Normally contractors would do it, but in an emergency, I?d do it at times. With the later tapes, you had to run them through something like 4 different ways, otherwise they were still readable (which is why I?m pretty sure we were degaussing SDLT tapes). As I recall, DLT IV tapes only had to go through once. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 30 12:59:34 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 10:59:34 -0700 Subject: Bulk tape eraser In-Reply-To: <6b20ead1-1ac5-6a5e-d849-588928d168f7@sydex.com> References: <6b20ead1-1ac5-6a5e-d849-588928d168f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4cdcfcb9-ff1d-e63b-8646-9dcf378c5049@bitsavers.org> On 4/30/17 10:04 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Certainly not DLT IV tapes--I've done the bulk eraser thing with them > and the result re-recorded just fine. > Sorry, I flipped DLT and LTO in my mind.. From db at db.net Sun Apr 30 13:15:25 2017 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 14:15:25 -0400 Subject: mx-80 for free Message-ID: <20170430181525.GA36454@night.db.net> I found an Epson MX-80 in my pile of junque. I'd rather not ship but Ottawa, Montreal or Toronto are all possible. Otherwise, out to recycle. -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Sun Apr 30 12:37:46 2017 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 18:37:46 +0100 Subject: os8diskserver help? Message-ID: Hi All, I'm in the process of building and restoring a PDP-8/e, and now I've got a second serial card I'd like to give OS/8 a try. I'm pretty sure I've got the boot loader entered properly, and the address + baud rates set correctly on the PDP and PC. When I start os8diskserver with "./os8disk -1 ../disks/diagpack2.rk05", it gives the welcome message. When I start the 8/e, It says: Booting... Done sending block 0 ^ and appears to freeze there. (the 8/e doesn't halt) I've got a RS-232 tester (blinky light box) hooked up to the port, which seems to indicate that nothing is being sent after Block 0 has been sent. Does anyone know what's going on, or what I'm doing wrong? Regards, -Tom From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 30 20:22:41 2017 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:22:41 -0400 Subject: Bulk tape eraser In-Reply-To: <40dcfe5d-d557-ba0c-1962-5a3a15eaa8ec@sydex.com> References: <40dcfe5d-d557-ba0c-1962-5a3a15eaa8ec@sydex.com> Message-ID: <59068DE1.1060309@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>On 04/30/2017 07:38 AM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > >>Looking for recommendations for a bulk tape eraser for SDLT and DLT >>IV tapes. >> >> > >If it's just a small quantity to be erased, there are many Radio Shack >videotape erasers being offered, some NIB, all for about $20. I've used >one for years on floppies and tapes. It's not for erasing piles of >tapes, as there's a thermal overload protector on it, limiting the >amount of time that you can use it. > >--Chuck > I don't know if my experience with tapes for the TK50 / TK70 applies, but for what it is worth, here is what was the problem. When a tape has been written by a TK50 drive, the TK70 drive will no longer be able to write on the tape until the tape have been BULK erased. Since I had a number of tapes written by a TK50 and I wanted to use the tapes for producing backups using a TK70, I obviously needed to be able to BULK erase those tapes. FORTUNATELY, I had an old voice coil fram a speaker available. It must have been a large speaker because the coil was a cylinder about 3" in diameter and about 3" long. The permanent magnet seems to have a few pounds of pull on any iron object, so I thought it might be useful. It probably takes about 30 seconds of slowly rotating the voice coil over the surface of the TK50 / TK70 tape to sufficiently BULK erase the tape such that the TK70 drive would write on the tape. Since I believe that the TK50 / TK70 tapes are early DLT tapes, this method may also be successful, if a bit slow, for a small quantity of tapes. Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 30 21:06:49 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 19:06:49 -0700 Subject: Bulk tape eraser In-Reply-To: <59068DE1.1060309@compsys.to> References: <40dcfe5d-d557-ba0c-1962-5a3a15eaa8ec@sydex.com> <59068DE1.1060309@compsys.to> Message-ID: <8e888c89-8ed7-7fae-eecc-8b1c42bd7e75@sydex.com> On 04/30/2017 06:22 PM, Jerome H. Fine via cctalk wrote: >> Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > FORTUNATELY, I had an old voice coil fram a speaker available. It > must have been a large speaker because the coil was a cylinder about > 3" in diameter and about 3" long. The permanent magnet seems to have > a few pounds of pull on any iron object, so I thought it might be > useful. It probably takes about 30 seconds of slowly rotating the > voice coil over the surface of the TK50 / TK70 tape to sufficiently > BULK erase the tape such that the TK70 drive would write on the tape. > Since I believe that the TK50 / TK70 tapes are early DLT tapes, this > method may also be successful, if a bit slow, for a small quantity of > tapes. I've entertained the idea of pulling out one of my old microwave oven transformers, cutting off the "I" sections, so that it's only "E" laminations, and then removing the high-voltage outer windings (easy enough to do with a Dremel--some folks re-purpose these boat anchors to serve as the basis for spot welders and such. Carefully limiting the current with a large incandescent lamp, that should give one a whopping AC field that should take the magnetization out of anything. But...it feels like too much work for an old man. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Apr 30 21:10:08 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 19:10:08 -0700 Subject: Bulk tape eraser In-Reply-To: <59068DE1.1060309@compsys.to> References: <40dcfe5d-d557-ba0c-1962-5a3a15eaa8ec@sydex.com> <59068DE1.1060309@compsys.to> Message-ID: <212ac168-8a18-b608-5023-630a1f5b3516@jwsss.com> On 4/30/2017 6:22 PM, Jerome H. Fine via cctalk wrote: > > >> Looking for recommendations for a bulk tape eraser for SDLT and DLT >> IV tapes. Eons ago at Microdata we had a commercial grade bulk eraser which could do 2400' reels maybe a bit larger. I wondered by one day with a new fangled device, a 16k eprom. while a small chat developed by the table where the eraser was, I casually put the eprom on the eraser, and turned it on, just because. one of my otherwise smart colleagues looked with a concerned look on his face and then queried whether that would work with the eproms. don't know that he ever lived that one down. Wish I had it, I'd certainly pass it along. thanks jim From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 30 23:38:39 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:38:39 -0700 Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe Message-ID: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com> Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend from where it was currently stored to my shop. Pictures are here: https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for this purpose. Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop. Some early tasks will be: * I have to verify that I have everything. Even if I missed some items, they won?t be scrapped. I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify that I didn?t leave anything behind. I?m mostly worried about cables at this point. * I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power to run the peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase coming into my shop. Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet. ;-) TTFN - Guy From isking at uw.edu Sun Apr 30 23:38:40 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:38:40 -0700 Subject: Something for the P3 you have in your back yard In-Reply-To: <66f5e12b-93e3-4b65-20bb-31d49e73c59d@bitsavers.org> References: <66f5e12b-93e3-4b65-20bb-31d49e73c59d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Military-IBM-Computer-/201911842662 > > https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/an-uys-1.htm > > Does this come under the category of 'home defense'? -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 13:54:47 2017 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 20:54:47 +0200 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, all fine with Rigol or similar oscilloscopes, but there's a very important technical specification that often is not considered, which really DOES the difference between a cheap oscilloscope and a powerful one: waveforms per second. Suppose you are searching for a rare glitch, or that you are trying to trace an edge of a signal with infinite persistence. If the scope is a DSO, it just takes a sampling window, the memory is full and requires data processing and display, in the meantime the signal is not analyzed, and you can lose important events. A DPO can capture the signal continuously, or at least with very short death time, and the display is updated using a large number of triggered sampling windows. Of course this kind requires a far powerful acquisition circuit. I really like DPO scopes in place of DSO, for example used Tek TDS540C or D, they are quite cheap, no electrolytic caps, and can be optionally expended to increase acquisition memory depth. Display is small and grey, but you can use a VGA monitor. My two cents. Andrea From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 16:50:43 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:50:43 +0000 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +1 for the TDS540. On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 11:54 shadoooo via cctech wrote: > Hello, > all fine with Rigol or similar oscilloscopes, but there's a very important > technical specification that often is not considered, which really DOES the > difference between a cheap oscilloscope and a powerful one: waveforms per > second. > Suppose you are searching for a rare glitch, or that you are trying to > trace an edge of a signal with infinite persistence. > If the scope is a DSO, it just takes a sampling window, the memory is full > and requires data processing and display, in the meantime the signal is not > analyzed, and you can lose important events. > A DPO can capture the signal continuously, or at least with very short > death time, and the display is updated using a large number of triggered > sampling windows. > Of course this kind requires a far powerful acquisition circuit. > > I really like DPO scopes in place of DSO, for example used Tek TDS540C or > D, they are quite cheap, no electrolytic caps, and can be optionally > expended to increase acquisition memory depth. > Display is small and grey, but you can use a VGA monitor. > > My two cents. > > Andrea > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com