From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun May 1 00:01:25 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 22:01:25 -0700 Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from]] In-Reply-To: <4374b2c0-374a-ddc9-8e9a-4c757952ebee@btinternet.com> References: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160427170225.GC20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160501022359.GA24342@tau1.ceti.pl> <4374b2c0-374a-ddc9-8e9a-4c757952ebee@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <0D923D8F-9E7A-4BCE-A27A-83DD9E4D1502@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Apr-30, at 9:05 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > That's interesting I had a FidoBBs back in 1983 No 33 > > Written by a guy called Tom Jennings in C. Tom was on this list, up until somewhere ~ mid-2000s AIR. http://sensitiveresearch.com/ http://worldpowersystems.com/ . . from his resume: 1984 ? 1995: Fido Software (d/b/a), author Fido/Fidonet software From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun May 1 00:44:46 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 00:44:46 -0500 Subject: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) In-Reply-To: <5723B76D.4090300@snarc.net> References: <5723AD38.7000102@snarc.net> <5723B76D.4090300@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20160501054445.GB73338@gmail.com> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>Anyone here on cctalk consider themselves a file systems expert and have > >>the credentials or job title to vouch for it? If so, then I need to > >>interview you ASAP today (in the next hour-ish) for a TechRepublic.com > >>article. Contact me offline: news at snarc.net. > >> > >>Not going to discuss the story itself here in public. > >> > > > >Can you be a little more specific? File systems is quite broad > > > > One of the hard disk standards bodies is working on a new feature (which I'm > not going to post here) that would require changes to file systems, > otherwise the new feature is academic and useless in the real world. So I am > looking for someone with FS chops to comment on whether the changes can > reasonably happen. Cannot say more except in private. Hopefully not something that would require said filesystem implementators to pay licensing fees or sign NDAs or take affirmative action to limit users' use of data, or onerous things like that. -- Eric Christopherson From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun May 1 02:32:21 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 03:32:21 -0400 Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email... Message-ID: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> fido news when he became editor and they are lamenting the Internet taking away from fido net.... https://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gopher.meulie.net/0/fidonews/2002/fido1902.nw s In a message dated 4/30/2016 7:43:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, geneb at deltasoft.com writes: On Sun, 1 May 2016, Tomasz Rola wrote: > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:07:34AM -0700, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: >> > [...] >>> Just look into the political machinations of what was known as FidoNet to >>> see how this could end up. >>> >> What IS known as FidoNet (1:138/142 here. :) ) and it's still a >> political shit-show, mostly due to people from Zone 2. *sigh* > > Pardon my ignorant question but is there a place on the net where I > could read some more about it? Or maybe it is short enough to explain > here? > Books could be written about it unfortunately, One of the more annoying aspects is Bjorn Felten, the current editor of FidoNews - he's refused repeated requests to pass on his editor duties for various reasons and he's refused - for at least the last 10 years. Find a telnetable BBS that's a member of FidoNet and start reading the FidoNews echo for a taste of the insanity. The Fido Sysop (FNSYSOP) is also a pretty deranged place. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From erik at baigar.de Sun May 1 06:10:46 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 13:10:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, sorry, but there emerged more questions from my side ;-) On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > Hawk, but not the odd S/140 and MV/8000 punches) and software (ARTS, > ARTS/32) were ROLM designs. I only know ARTS from ads being sold on eBay - this is some form od Ada development environment (or a complete OS?)? The acronym probably means something like "Ada Real Time System" (?). Was this a cross compiler tool or did it run natively on the hardware? As there is a /32 variant, do you think a variant for the 16 bit machines like 16xx or MSE14 did survive some- where? > Steve Wallach had incorporated into the PTE format for the Eagle in > order to turn memory references into I/O requests that would be > transparently resolved in the physical memory of another machine. Although I do not recognize the "PTE format", I guess the Eagle project is related to a widely sold US made aircraft, right? This one carried at least one Hawk/32 ;-) Some of the Rolm stuff I have got is from the company which serviced the equipment of the ATTAS aircraft... http://www.dlr.de/dlr/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10644#gallery/1751 http://www.dlr.de/dlr/Portaldata/1/Resources/documents/ATTAS_Handout_2001.pdf ...and this also had Hawk/32 on board with the whole lot of Rolms interconnected by a fiber based MCA bus to exchange data. So this seemt having been common hardware those days ;-) > deal from each other ("Yes, I know that the PATU instruction only occurs > twice in the body of AOS/VS, but it's executed on every context switch > and as such it's probably not a really good idea to implement it by > having the microcode scrub each entry in the TLB"). I guess you have not been happy with context switching and how the Rolm microcode implemented it. Unfortunately, there is nothing on the internet related to the instruction set of the Hawk/32 family but the hardware contained lot of big custom chips and therefor I guess it was far more powerful and complex than e.g. the Eclipse or earlier machines. Best regards, Erik. From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sun May 1 12:11:49 2016 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 17:11:49 +0000 Subject: PowerBook Duo 280c Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF1B495@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi! Anyone on here collect old Mac 68k gear, and happen to have a PowerBook Duo 280c in decent shape they'd be willing to part with? I'm wishing I hadn't ditched all my old Macs years ago... Thanks much as always! -Ben From mattislind at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:59:50 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 20:59:50 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure Message-ID: I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our heaps of documentation. Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with everything. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun May 1 14:32:43 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 15:32:43 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/750 registry (Was: Reviving a VAX-11/750) In-Reply-To: <559B4170.1020209@snowmoose.com> References: <297BBD27-571E-470D-9FE9-BE6588851517@nf6x.net> <76C96A4A-9A44-45EE-83F2-CE321B16E2CE@nf6x.net> <559844B5.7090802@telegraphics.com.au> <559B4170.1020209@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <276ee30b-8d0f-c438-4e7b-48c20e1a07f9@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-07-06 11:03 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > Is there any interest in starting a VAX-11/750 registry? I wouldn't > mind knowing who else out there has one and where they are now. If you > are interested, send me e-mail (vax11-750 at snowmoose.com). > > alan > Since I've heard of a few 11/750's having been rescued recently, I'm reposting this in case anyone wants to regster with Alan or, if his list is defunct, start a new registry... --Toby From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun May 1 14:42:34 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 15:42:34 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure Message-ID: <5aea18.1817c700.4457b62a@aol.com> That is spectacular! thanks for sharing it! that last picture is why you needed the E with both backplanes .... to hold all the i/o for all those devices! Ed# In a message dated 5/1/2016 11:59:54 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mattislind at gmail.com writes: I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our heaps of documentation. Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with everything. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf From mattislind at gmail.com Sun May 1 14:44:45 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 21:44:45 +0200 Subject: Mini-RSTS Message-ID: Yet another nice DEC sales brochure from early seventies. This time DEC education MINI-RSTS-11. It mention PDP-11/21-CA! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/mini-rsts.pdf From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 1 14:45:22 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 20:45:22 +0100 Subject: DIMM Failures Message-ID: <002501d1a3e1$ffb7f4f0$ff27ded0$@ntlworld.com> To be able to use my parallel port programmer I keep an old (by modern standards) machine running with Windows XP on it. It is an Abit KV-85 motherboard for AMD processors. In recent times I have had a couple of DIMMs fail on me. I am not sure if this is just coincidence, that I have had a couple of bad DIMMs, or if the motherboard is damaging the DIMMs. It uses a cheap generic PSU, I checked the PSU for voltage and ripple and it seemed OK, I also checked voltage and ripple on some of the power pins of the working DIMM, they seemed OK too (ripple about +/- 20mV), but other than that, are there any other things I should check? Thanks Rob From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun May 1 15:06:27 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 16:06:27 -0400 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D7E1F6B-554D-4D0D-8FD5-5AE409F1A1E7@comcast.net> > On May 1, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Yet another nice DEC sales brochure from early seventies. > > This time DEC education MINI-RSTS-11. It mention PDP-11/21-CA! > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/mini-rsts.pdf Interesting. I never heard of Mini-RSTS before. Looks like a marketing hack; it's basically just a standard RSTS-11 system, a close to minimal configuration. All they had to do is slap a name of it and print a new piece of paper, and presto, the appearance of a new product. On the other hand, "Micro-RSTS", which appeared much later, is a different item; it involved some (fairly modest) changes in the software and its packaging and installation procedures). paul From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 1 15:21:29 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 13:21:29 -0700 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: <8D7E1F6B-554D-4D0D-8FD5-5AE409F1A1E7@comcast.net> References: <8D7E1F6B-554D-4D0D-8FD5-5AE409F1A1E7@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/mini-rsts.pdf > an RK11-C with a light panel. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun May 1 15:31:42 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 22:31:42 +0200 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: References: <8D7E1F6B-554D-4D0D-8FD5-5AE409F1A1E7@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/mini-rsts.pdf > > > an RK11-C with a light panel. Drool ... From leec2124 at gmail.com Sun May 1 15:36:17 2016 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 13:36:17 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/750 registry (Was: Reviving a VAX-11/750) In-Reply-To: <276ee30b-8d0f-c438-4e7b-48c20e1a07f9@telegraphics.com.au> References: <297BBD27-571E-470D-9FE9-BE6588851517@nf6x.net> <76C96A4A-9A44-45EE-83F2-CE321B16E2CE@nf6x.net> <559844B5.7090802@telegraphics.com.au> <559B4170.1020209@snowmoose.com> <276ee30b-8d0f-c438-4e7b-48c20e1a07f9@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I have a vague recollection of this - have you reached out to Alan to determine current status? Lee C. On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2015-07-06 11:03 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > >> Is there any interest in starting a VAX-11/750 registry? I wouldn't >> mind knowing who else out there has one and where they are now. If you >> are interested, send me e-mail (vax11-750 at snowmoose.com). >> >> alan >> >> > > Since I've heard of a few 11/750's having been rescued recently, I'm > reposting this in case anyone wants to regster with Alan or, if his list is > defunct, start a new registry... > > --Toby > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From imp at bsdimp.com Sun May 1 15:37:33 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:37:33 -0600 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool brochure. When was this price list in force? Warner On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Yet another nice DEC sales brochure from early seventies. > > This time DEC education MINI-RSTS-11. It mention PDP-11/21-CA! > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/mini-rsts.pdf > From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun May 1 15:52:54 2016 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 13:52:54 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/750 registry (Was: Reviving a VAX-11/750) In-Reply-To: References: <297BBD27-571E-470D-9FE9-BE6588851517@nf6x.net> <76C96A4A-9A44-45EE-83F2-CE321B16E2CE@nf6x.net> <559844B5.7090802@telegraphics.com.au> <559B4170.1020209@snowmoose.com> <276ee30b-8d0f-c438-4e7b-48c20e1a07f9@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <8AFFFCC3-19BF-42A4-BF25-91A6C1EFE13D@snowmoose.com> I sold my VAX (and the buyer, Josh, has it running now!), but I am still maintaining the registry. Only 4-5 people have sent me info. I am away from my desk and don't have access to the URL/e-mail addr right now. I will send it to you later. alan > On May 1, 2016, at 13:36, Lee Courtney wrote: > > I have a vague recollection of this - have you reached out to Alan to > determine current status? > > Lee C. > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Toby Thain > wrote: > >>> On 2015-07-06 11:03 PM, Alan Perry wrote: >>> >>> Is there any interest in starting a VAX-11/750 registry? I wouldn't >>> mind knowing who else out there has one and where they are now. If you >>> are interested, send me e-mail (vax11-750 at snowmoose.com). >>> >>> alan >> >> Since I've heard of a few 11/750's having been rescued recently, I'm >> reposting this in case anyone wants to regster with Alan or, if his list is >> defunct, start a new registry... >> >> --Toby > > > -- > Lee Courtney > +1-650-704-3934 cell From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun May 1 15:55:36 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 16:55:36 -0400 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <640326CD-3A4A-48ED-A183-E279E543302C@comcast.net> > On May 1, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > Cool brochure. When was this price list in force? Judging by what it advertises, probably 1972, maybe 1973. Unlikely to be later than that. paul From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun May 1 15:58:26 2016 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 13:58:26 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/750 registry (Was: Reviving a VAX-11/750) In-Reply-To: References: <297BBD27-571E-470D-9FE9-BE6588851517@nf6x.net> <76C96A4A-9A44-45EE-83F2-CE321B16E2CE@nf6x.net> <559844B5.7090802@telegraphics.com.au> <559B4170.1020209@snowmoose.com> <276ee30b-8d0f-c438-4e7b-48c20e1a07f9@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <93E1DF2E-2025-4F3D-959A-F603618304FD@snowmoose.com> I just saw this was sent to the 750 email address I set up. I'll find the URL this evening. > On May 1, 2016, at 13:36, Lee Courtney wrote: > > I have a vague recollection of this - have you reached out to Alan to > determine current status? > > Lee C. > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Toby Thain > wrote: > >>> On 2015-07-06 11:03 PM, Alan Perry wrote: >>> >>> Is there any interest in starting a VAX-11/750 registry? I wouldn't >>> mind knowing who else out there has one and where they are now. If you >>> are interested, send me e-mail (vax11-750 at snowmoose.com). >>> >>> alan >> >> Since I've heard of a few 11/750's having been rescued recently, I'm >> reposting this in case anyone wants to regster with Alan or, if his list is >> defunct, start a new registry... >> >> --Toby > > > -- > Lee Courtney > +1-650-704-3934 cell From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 1 16:03:23 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:03:23 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/750 registry (Was: Reviving a VAX-11/750) In-Reply-To: References: <297BBD27-571E-470D-9FE9-BE6588851517@nf6x.net> <76C96A4A-9A44-45EE-83F2-CE321B16E2CE@nf6x.net> <559844B5.7090802@telegraphics.com.au> <559B4170.1020209@snowmoose.com> <276ee30b-8d0f-c438-4e7b-48c20e1a07f9@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <57266F1B.2080203@gmail.com> On 5/1/16 1:36 PM, Lee Courtney wrote: > I have a vague recollection of this - have you reached out to Alan to > determine current status? > > Lee C. I actually ended up with Alan's 11/750 (which is now up and running, thanks to help from people here), so I don't know if he's still interested in running the registry, but maybe he can pass the mantle onto someone else... - Josh > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Toby Thain > wrote: > >> On 2015-07-06 11:03 PM, Alan Perry wrote: >> >>> Is there any interest in starting a VAX-11/750 registry? I wouldn't >>> mind knowing who else out there has one and where they are now. If you >>> are interested, send me e-mail (vax11-750 at snowmoose.com). >>> >>> alan >>> >>> >> Since I've heard of a few 11/750's having been rescued recently, I'm >> reposting this in case anyone wants to regster with Alan or, if his list is >> defunct, start a new registry... >> >> --Toby >> >> >> > From mattislind at gmail.com Sun May 1 16:06:16 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 23:06:16 +0200 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-05-01 22:37 GMT+02:00 Warner Losh : > Cool brochure. When was this price list in force? > This brochure came with a bunch of other which had a accompanying personal latter from the sales person at DEC. This letter is dated 1973-11-27. The other brochures include * 1,000,000 Students - a 32 page document which lists installations at universities and different sorts of colleges in USA. * "Hans On" Digital Logic and Computer Interfacing - thin leaflet * CAI Author Language on RSTS-11 * Huntington II Simulation Program - POLUT * Edusystem 25 - leaflet * Edu #7 - some kind of magazine that seems to be sent to educational institutions - 44 pages. * LAB11 - color leaflet - Front page with lady using a LA30 in front of a Greenish 11/20 and a Red / Green color VR20 screen When I get time I will try to scan more of these documents if there are interest. /Mattis > > Warner > > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > Yet another nice DEC sales brochure from early seventies. > > > > This time DEC education MINI-RSTS-11. It mention PDP-11/21-CA! > > > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/mini-rsts.pdf > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun May 1 16:20:47 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:20:47 -0700 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: <640326CD-3A4A-48ED-A183-E279E543302C@comcast.net> References: <640326CD-3A4A-48ED-A183-E279E543302C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <17FC9F90-D3E9-4840-B43D-6778FC334CA4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-01, at 1:55 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On May 1, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> Cool brochure. When was this price list in force? > > Judging by what it advertises, probably 1972, maybe 1973. Unlikely to be later than that. I wonder if this MINI-RSTS/BASIC-PLUS was a marketing response to HP's timeshared BASIC system for the 2100s. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun May 1 16:23:06 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 17:23:06 -0400 Subject: Mini-RSTS Message-ID: <1f554a.207bef23.4457cdba@aol.com> hilpert at cs.ubc.ca that is a valid idea.... or a replacement also for TSS-8 using pdp8s but would timeshare Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC In a message dated 5/1/2016 2:20:53 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, hilpert at cs.ubc.ca writes: On 2016-May-01, at 1:55 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On May 1, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> Cool brochure. When was this price list in force? > > Judging by what it advertises, probably 1972, maybe 1973. Unlikely to be later than that. I wonder if this MINI-RSTS/BASIC-PLUS was a marketing response to HP's timeshared BASIC system for the 2100s. From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Sun May 1 00:56:59 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (Alex McWhirter) Date: Sun, 01 May 2016 01:56:59 -0400 Subject: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) Message-ID: Sounds like some of the SMR stuff Seagate is working on. Not sure if HAMR needs fs changes or not, but I know SMR does for certain. Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- From: Eric Christopherson Date: 5/1/2016 1:44 AM (GMT-05:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) On Fri, Apr 29, 2016, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>Anyone here on cctalk consider themselves a file systems expert and have > >>the credentials or job title to vouch for it? If so, then I need to > >>interview you ASAP today (in the next hour-ish) for a TechRepublic.com > >>article. Contact me offline: news at snarc.net. > >> > >>Not going to discuss the story itself here in public. > >> > > > >Can you be a little more specific?? File systems is quite broad > > > > One of the hard disk standards bodies is working on a new feature (which I'm > not going to post here) that would require changes to file systems, > otherwise the new feature is academic and useless in the real world. So I am > looking for someone with FS chops to comment on whether the changes can > reasonably happen. Cannot say more except in private. Hopefully not something that would require said filesystem implementators to pay licensing fees or sign NDAs or take affirmative action to limit users' use of data, or onerous things like that. -- ??????? Eric Christopherson From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sun May 1 12:28:50 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 12:28:50 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? Message-ID: I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame in trying? I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX for VB applications. Or? maybe there is? Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? m From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:31:03 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:31:03 -0400 Subject: OT: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? Message-ID: VB4 is what, mid 90s? How about you upgrade the code? Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On May 1, 2016 1:29 PM, "Mike Whalen" wrote: > I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame > in trying? > > I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit > hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked > small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might > be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. > > I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX for > VB applications. Or? maybe there is? > > Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? > > m > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:35:16 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 11:35:16 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57264C64.8000502@gmail.com> On 5/1/16 10:28 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame > in trying? > > I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit > hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked > small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might > be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. > > I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX for > VB applications. Or? maybe there is? > > Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? > > m > DOSBOX can run older Windows versions; if this is VB4 I imagine it will run on Win 3.1, if not that try Windows 95. You should be able to build a VM running either of those in well under 100mb. - Josh From wsudol at freedom.com Sun May 1 13:36:30 2016 From: wsudol at freedom.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 18:36:30 +0000 Subject: OT: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wayne > On May 1, 2016, at 11:31 AM, william degnan wrote: > > VB4 is what, mid 90s? How about you upgrade the code? > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net >> On May 1, 2016 1:29 PM, "Mike Whalen" wrote: >> >> I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame >> in trying? >> >> I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit >> hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked >> small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might >> be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. >> >> I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX for >> VB applications. Or? maybe there is? >> >> Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? >> >> m >> Not exactly what you asked but the app should run okay as is on 64 bit hardware. You might have to copy the vb4 runtime dlls and any ocx's to the new machine. I run a vb4 .exe on win 7 64 bit. From brendan at bslabs.net Sun May 1 13:40:02 2016 From: brendan at bslabs.net (Brendan Shanks) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 11:40:02 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F8363EF-687D-49F0-8BDF-91E515DA1699@bslabs.net> NT 4 or Win2000 would be smaller, and as long as the VM doesn?t need internet/network access the security issues should be?manageable. Alternately, does it run under Wine? A stripped-down Linux distro would be small. (and i assume you don?t have the source code, that would be the best solution) Brendan > On May 1, 2016, at 10:28 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > > I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame > in trying? > > I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit > hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked > small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might > be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. > > I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX for > VB applications. Or? maybe there is? > > Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? > > m From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 1 13:57:07 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 19:57:07 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <20160430165914.C95962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <201 60430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> I want to read the DROM chip with my programmer, but I can't ID the chip. Does anyone know what kind it is? It is in a PLCC32 package and the label on it is: 369E7 AYOMA 49/95 I am sure at least some of that is DEC stuff, unrelated to the type of chip. However, none of those parts of the label seem to correspond to any EPROM I can find. My programmer's software has an auto detect feature, but that also failed to ID the chip. I don't really want to remove the label if I can avoid it. The underside is marked 76394-23 Singapore C4 522 (might be 322) 512X None of these appear to match anything either. Any ideas what it might be? Thanks Rob From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sun May 1 14:07:48 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:07:48 -0500 Subject: OT: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wayne, You know, I thought so, but all I really get when trying to run it is a message on the screen, ?This app cannot run on this PC. Contact the software manufacturer.? This is Windows 10. The message is pretty, blue, and takes up the entire screen. I?m sure someone meant well, but I don?t know what the matter is exactly. Thanks. I?ll keep poking at it. On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Wayne Sudol wrote: > > > Wayne > > > > On May 1, 2016, at 11:31 AM, william degnan > wrote: > > > > VB4 is what, mid 90s? How about you upgrade the code? > > > > Bill Degnan > > twitter: billdeg > > vintagecomputer.net > >> On May 1, 2016 1:29 PM, "Mike Whalen" > wrote: > >> > >> I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] > shame > >> in trying? > >> > >> I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit > >> hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked > >> small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which > might > >> be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. > >> > >> I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX > for > >> VB applications. Or? maybe there is? > >> > >> Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? > >> > >> m > >> > Not exactly what you asked but the app should run okay as is on 64 bit > hardware. You might have to copy the vb4 runtime dlls and any ocx's to the > new machine. > I run a vb4 .exe on win 7 64 bit. From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sun May 1 14:08:27 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:08:27 -0500 Subject: OT: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, I don?t have the source. It?s a custom app written a long time ago by an organization that no longer exists. Thanks. On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:31 PM, william degnan wrote: > VB4 is what, mid 90s? How about you upgrade the code? > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On May 1, 2016 1:29 PM, "Mike Whalen" wrote: > > > I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame > > in trying? > > > > I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit > > hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked > > small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which > might > > be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. > > > > I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX > for > > VB applications. Or? maybe there is? > > > > Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? > > > > m > > > From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sun May 1 14:08:42 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:08:42 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <57264C64.8000502@gmail.com> References: <57264C64.8000502@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hmmm? Perhaps so? Thanks, Josh! On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 5/1/16 10:28 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > >> I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame >> in trying? >> >> I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit >> hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked >> small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which >> might >> be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. >> >> I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX >> for >> VB applications. Or? maybe there is? >> >> Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? >> >> m >> >> > DOSBOX can run older Windows versions; if this is VB4 I imagine it will > run on Win 3.1, if not that try Windows 95. You should be able to build a > VM running either of those in well under 100mb. > > - Josh > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun May 1 14:36:24 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 20:36:24 +0100 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <57264C64.8000502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <019601d1a3e0$bfc3d860$3f4b8920$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike > Whalen > Sent: 01 May 2016 20:09 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? > > Hmmm? Perhaps so? Thanks, Josh! This is a common problem. I think Win9X would be fine if you don't need network connectivity. You could also use one of the OS/2 releases with Windows support, or Linux with Wine but when I tried these for some Access 2.1 code they didn't work well... Dave G4UGM > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On 5/1/16 10:28 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > > > >> I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] > >> shame in trying? > >> > >> I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern > >> 64-bit hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to > >> be wicked small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is > >> 600MB (which might be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source > >> these days. > >> > >> I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or > >> DOSBOX for VB applications. Or? maybe there is? > >> > >> Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? > >> > >> m > >> > >> > > DOSBOX can run older Windows versions; if this is VB4 I imagine it > > will run on Win 3.1, if not that try Windows 95. You should be able > > to build a VM running either of those in well under 100mb. > > > > - Josh > > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 1 14:52:23 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 15:52:23 -0400 Subject: OT: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Mike Whalen wrote: > Bill, > > I don?t have the source. It?s a custom app written a long time ago by an > organization that no longer exists. > > Thanks. > > > Informally, assuming your emulated environment is working correctly, are you missing DLL files? Perhaps the error you're getting (Look it up) may be at the VB4 interprer level, if DLLs were missing, as a catch all DIE abort sequence. There may be a way to get verbose errors by using a switch at the command line when you run the program. Does this program load and run on a vanilla win NT/95 or other VB4-compatible system? If it does run on a real machine, compare the DLLs there with your virtual machine. There may be a set of DLLs that need to be copied over, too for the program to operate. If not Win NT or Win95, does it work on Windows 3.1? Win 2000? You could attempt to hexedit the executable. Bill From brendan at bslabs.net Sun May 1 14:55:56 2016 From: brendan at bslabs.net (Brendan Shanks) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 12:55:56 -0700 Subject: OT: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wikipedia says that VB4 was the first version able to produce Win32 binaries, but could also still generate Win16. If the app is Win16, that would explain why it doesn?t work on 64-bit Windows. Brendan > On May 1, 2016, at 12:52 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Mike Whalen > wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> I don?t have the source. It?s a custom app written a long time ago by an >> organization that no longer exists. >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> > Informally, assuming your emulated environment is working correctly, are > you missing DLL files? Perhaps the error you're getting (Look it up) may > be at the VB4 interprer level, if DLLs were missing, as a catch all DIE > abort sequence. There may be a way to get verbose errors by using a > switch at the command line when you run the program. > > Does this program load and run on a vanilla win NT/95 or other > VB4-compatible system? If it does run on a real machine, compare the DLLs > there with your virtual machine. There may be a set of DLLs that need to > be copied over, too for the program to operate. > > If not Win NT or Win95, does it work on Windows 3.1? Win 2000? > > You could attempt to hexedit the executable. > > > > Bill From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 1 14:56:13 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 12:56:13 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <019601d1a3e0$bfc3d860$3f4b8920$@gmail.com> References: <57264C64.8000502@gmail.com> <019601d1a3e0$bfc3d860$3f4b8920$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57265F5D.1070502@sydex.com> On 05/01/2016 12:36 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > This is a common problem. I think Win9X would be fine if you don't > need network connectivity. You could also use one of the OS/2 > releases with Windows support, or Linux with Wine but when I tried > these for some Access 2.1 code they didn't work well... WINE (AFAIK) *still* doesn't support 16-bit executables and the attempted integration with DOSBOX leaves a lot to be desired. It could well be that some parts of the VB4 application are 16-bit PM. VirtualBox might be a pretty good alternative. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Sun May 1 17:04:06 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 16:04:06 -0600 Subject: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Host-aware SMR doesn't require changes, but will benefit from them The host can optimize where things are placed and the order it does things, but otherwise needs no changes. And even if you don't change things, it will still work, but maybe with really bad performance. Host-managed SMR does require file system changes. It forces filesystems to be almost a pure log since most of the modifiable blocks need to be written in 'strips' rather than randomly. Drive-managed SMR doesn't require any changes, and hosts can't take advantage of the stripe geometries because they aren't communicated to the host, nor are the current details that a host-aware or host-managed host can use. Warner On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 11:56 PM, Alex McWhirter wrote: > > > Sounds like some of the SMR stuff Seagate is working on. Not sure if HAMR > needs fs changes or not, but I know SMR does for certain. > > > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Eric Christopherson > Date: 5/1/2016 1:44 AM (GMT-05:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >>Anyone here on cctalk consider themselves a file systems expert and > have > > >>the credentials or job title to vouch for it? If so, then I need to > > >>interview you ASAP today (in the next hour-ish) for a TechRepublic.com > > >>article. Contact me offline: news at snarc.net. > > >> > > >>Not going to discuss the story itself here in public. > > >> > > > > > >Can you be a little more specific? File systems is quite broad > > > > > > > One of the hard disk standards bodies is working on a new feature (which > I'm > > not going to post here) that would require changes to file systems, > > otherwise the new feature is academic and useless in the real world. So > I am > > looking for someone with FS chops to comment on whether the changes can > > reasonably happen. Cannot say more except in private. > > Hopefully not something that would require said filesystem > implementators to pay licensing fees or sign NDAs or take affirmative > action to limit users' use of data, or onerous things like that. > > -- > Eric Christopherson > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 1 17:42:40 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 18:42:40 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 2:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our > heaps of documentation. > > Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with > everything. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf > thanks, nice. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun May 1 18:29:35 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 16:29:35 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 30, 2016, at 6:39 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 03:55:35PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Those who claim that there's not much difference between C and assembly >> language have never run into a true CISC machine--or perhaps they rely >> only on libraries someone else has written. > > Now wait a minute here. C is a very old language. When it was first written > as a recursive descent compiler, compiler technology was very primitive. > K&R style code with primitive compilers pretty much resulted in high level > assembler. Look at the keyword 'register' and the rationale given for it. > >> >> Writing a true global optimizing compiler that generates code as good as >> assembly is a nearly impossible task. When you are dealing with a >> target machine with a large CISC set, it's really tough. > > Now on that we furiously agree. One problem has been getting that through > to people who insist that C is still a high level assembler and has > not changed from the time when it was a hand crafted recursive descent > LR to the modern compiler with all the lovely optimisations we can do. > What does a recursive decent parser to do with code generation and optimization? All of the compilers I wrote (admittedly it?s been decades since I wrote one from scratch) all had recursive decent parsers. The output from that was a ?program tree? that the global optimizer walked to do transforms that were the ?global? optimizations. The code generator took the output, generated code for a synthetic machine. That was then gone over by the target code generator to do register allocation and code generation to the final ISA. The result of this flow generated pretty respectably optimized code. The parser was *very* removed from the code generation. Frankly, I fail to see what the implementation choice for the parser has on the quality (or lack thereof) of the generated code. > The best way of viewing it is to acknowledge that modern C is effectively > a new language compared to old K&R C that had no prototypes. ANSI C is the ?modern C? vs K&R C. However, even ANSI C evolves every few years to what is effectively a new variant of C that maintains some backwards compatibility with older versions. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun May 1 18:52:52 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 16:52:52 -0700 Subject: MEM11A status update In-Reply-To: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> References: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <0D2F4A2E-34E6-4FF6-ADAA-CB76D2D22CDC@shiresoft.com> I had planned on starting to assemble the first of the prototypes this weekend but alas it was not to be. My email server died (SW not HW) early last week and I took this opportunity to move my email over to a hosting provider. I spent most of Friday and most of Saturday and Sunday (today) moving all of my email over (~4GB of mail in ~250,000 messages in 100+ folders). I now have a minimal set of filters running. I?m finally getting caught up on the the 1000 or so unread emails (not spam) that were pending while my email was down. I?ve also discovered that most of my incidental soldering stuff is packed away in the basement of my shop and that will probably take most of next weekend to dig out. TTFN - Guy > On Apr 26, 2016, at 2:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Just to let folks know that I just received the prototype boards for the MEM11A (FedEx just left). > The boards look great! The parts from Digikey arrived late last week, so once I get my soldering > station set up (new microscope and new Metcal soldering iron) I?ll start to build a couple of boards > to test out. Once I have a couple working *and* I get firm orders for at least 25 boards (hint, hint) > I?ll do a production run. > > TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 1 20:02:34 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 18:02:34 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160430233111.GE18197@brevard.conman.org> References: <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> <201604302107.RAA04188@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5725219A.1070103@sydex.com> <20160430233111.GE18197@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <5726A72A.9060704@sydex.com> On 04/30/2016 04:31 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > I believe that's what the C99 keyword "restrict" is meant to address. Closing the barn door after the horses have run off. It's not in C++ and *must* be included by the programmer. I suspect if you take 100 C99 programs, 99 of them will not include "restrict". Because of legacy C code, "restrict" could not be assumed by default. Sigh. --Chuck From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun May 1 20:10:19 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 13:10:19 +1200 Subject: MEM11A status update In-Reply-To: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> References: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Back from holidays... I'm certainly firm for at least a couple - possibly more. Mike On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Just to let folks know that I just received the prototype boards for the MEM11A (FedEx just left). > The boards look great! The parts from Digikey arrived late last week, so once I get my soldering > station set up (new microscope and new Metcal soldering iron) I?ll start to build a couple of boards > to test out. Once I have a couple working *and* I get firm orders for at least 25 boards (hint, hint) > I?ll do a production run. > > TTFN - Guy -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From chris at mainecoon.com Sun May 1 23:57:31 2016 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 21:57:31 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <6e2a67cf-cb5f-274b-9640-ac226fbabbd1@mainecoon.com> On 4/30/16 07:18, Erik Baigar wrote: > That sounds very interesting - although I do not know much about the > Hawk/32 it sounds to be a very interesting machine. It was quite advanced at the time, thanks in no small part to the efforts of Kamran Malik, Michael (Farbod) Raam and others. > I do not know of anyone having one of these running, but I think some > of them should be still in service. They're still flying, on ship and in subs. It's very difficult to replace a mission computer in a weapons system, which explains why we're only now in the process of changing out the 1970's 370-derived computers in the E-3. [snip] > > But software prior to ARTS was just copies of the DG stuff as far as > I can tell from the paper tapes I have got (mainly diagnostics). All ROLM machines were supposed to be able to run DG software, including diagnostics, but occasionally things went sideways, particularly with the 16xx extensions and in places where the DG specification said that certain bitfields were undefined but the diagnostics would expect them to be zero. [snip] > Yeah for the later machines this may be true: E.g. the BITE of the > MSE14 is claimed to detect almost all problems in the CPU and I have > got seen a test report which shows that some poor moron randomly > soldered bridges onto the PCB board or cut wires and recorded whether > the fault was detected. The result was, that more than 89 percent > have been reported correctly -> This is very remarkable in my > opinion. Does anyone know how this result relates to testing of > modern CPUs? My guess is that automated test coverage has come a long ways, but the point of BITE was to do more than just verify the CPU but the Nova bus and the cards sitting on it. In the case of the Hawk this was known internally as the "one second architectural verification", but running on the simulator it took approximately forever to finish, resulting in it sometime being referred to not as "osav" but "neosav" -- the never-ending one-second architectural verification. > >> because someone just sunk it or, using Terry's favorite metaphor, >> "planted a local sun on it"; under suitable gamma or neutron flux >> all transistors become photo transistors, which has interesting >> consequences for disk drives, etc) > > Hmm, in the list of peripherals for the Rolm IO bus I see a "nucelar > event detector" which probably forces the processor into some routine > verifying its correct operation after the "local sun" event. Ah, event detect. That was a morbid piece of marketingspeak if there ever was one. Large-geometry semiconductor devices (such as power transistors in power supplies) are prone to catastrophic failure in the presence of high neutron fluxes or gamma radiation (that whole phototransistor thing again); EventDetect (tm, no less) was basically a PN diode that would conduct in the presence of radiation events and non-destructively crowbar the power supply, after which the machine would execute a normal power-fail auto-restart (the joys of core). > Apart > from this the earlier Rolms (1602) had indeed bugs which (according > to some ECN (=engineering change notes) could lead to freezing and/or > branching to wrong memory addresses). One of my 1602s is a very > strange one as it contains a memory and IO protection facility > realizing some form of protection to prevent critical code from > getting crazy. > > This option consists of a special microcode realizing some form of > kernel and user mode and an additional PCB in the CPU to detect > access violations in core and IO - the whole thing was called APM > (Access Protection Module or Mode or whatever (?)). This option is > not listed in the standard IO options and to my knowledge is a very > early form (dated before 1974) of such a feature ;-) Way before my time. I assiduously avoided all contact with the 16XX stuff, although Eddie did get briefly retasked to make a hack to ARTS in order to appease the nuclear assurance folks, who basically lost their collective minds when they realized the the nova I/O bus had no error detection -- something that made them very unhappy with respect to the machines deployed in GLCM/SLCM systems. > >> order to turn memory references into I/O requests that would be >> transparently resolved in the physical memory of another machine. > > What form of machine-machine communication was used in this case? Was > this realized using the DG data channel transfers (MCA, would be very > slow for a Hawk/32 I guess) or was it implemented in some newer > hardware not depending on the DG IO bus? It picked off the memory bus, not the I/O bus, and communicated via fiber. > >> In a curious twist of fate, I found myself working with member of >> the Hark/32 team at TAEC in the mid-late 90's. > > TEAC? The company we know from Audio devices and stuff like this? > (Sorry for asking stupid questions!). Toshiba America Electronic Components. We did the MIPS-derived core in the CPU2 chip of the Sony PS/2 -- the so-called "Emotion Engine". [1553, snipped] > >> doas 0, skpdn jmp .-1 > > Yes that is indeed a very common sequence of commands ;-) > >> The micro would be busy trying to make sense of the doas and be out >> to lunch > > ;-) That really is a design flaw. Together with two colleagues I > built a harddisk simulator for the Rolms and lucky as we are today we > used a FPGA to realize the interfacing - so we could repair our bugs > easily by modifying the firmware. And your FPGAs are screaming fast in comparison to a 1983 micro -- and to the 16xx as well ;) -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From pete at petelancashire.com Sun May 1 19:42:14 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 17:42:14 -0700 Subject: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: <81B973BE-A499-459B-B88E-C2E8B6C1E12F@shiresoft.com> References: <20160208220451.302FB18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <81B973BE-A499-459B-B88E-C2E8B6C1E12F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Do you or someone have a list of all the Unibus bus chips ? I'd like to put them in my search list -pete On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> On Feb 8, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> >> >>> From: Ethan Dicks >> >>> I'm starting to get sorry I sold off my surplus NS8641s from Software >>> Results 20 years ago. To be fair, I did get over $4 each for them, so at the >>> time, it was a good deal for me (ISTR retail was $7.50 even then, so I >>> got a good spread on the price). >>> I do have some left, but handfuls, not armloads. >> >> NS8641's are still available. I got a bunch from a guy in Hong Kong for >> US$1.50 each - considering the source, I built a test card to make sure they >> met specs, and they do, so I'm pretty sure they aren't counterfeits. :-) >> >> When I was worried he couldn't find enough, I checked with a supplier (4 Star >> Electronics, I think) and they had like 50K available, and quoted me a price >> in about the same region, so I don't think UNIBUS transceivers actually are a >> problem, at least, not at the moment. > > That?s good to know although I use a number of different UNIBUS interface > parts depending upon the signal (input only, output only or bi-directional). > But NS8641?s are the most numerous. > > TTFN - Guy > > From pete at petelancashire.com Sun May 1 20:11:08 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 18:11:08 -0700 Subject: MEM11A status update In-Reply-To: References: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Same here On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Back from holidays... I'm certainly firm for at least a couple - possibly more. > > Mike > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Just to let folks know that I just received the prototype boards for the MEM11A (FedEx just left). >> The boards look great! The parts from Digikey arrived late last week, so once I get my soldering >> station set up (new microscope and new Metcal soldering iron) I?ll start to build a couple of boards >> to test out. Once I have a couple working *and* I get firm orders for at least 25 boards (hint, hint) >> I?ll do a production run. >> >> TTFN - Guy > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > From chris at mainecoon.com Mon May 2 00:24:17 2016 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 22:24:17 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On 5/1/16 04:10, Erik Baigar wrote: > sorry, but there emerged more questions from my side ;-) It's a trip down memory lane ;) > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > >> Hawk, but not the odd S/140 and MV/8000 punches) and software (ARTS, >> ARTS/32) were ROLM designs. > > I only know ARTS from ads being sold on eBay - this is some > form od Ada development environment (or a complete OS?)? The > acronym probably means something like "Ada Real Time System" (?). Advanced Real Time System. Memory resident with hard latency limits for servicing interrupts; it had nothing to do with the Ada compiler. > > Was this a cross compiler tool or did it run natively on the > hardware? As there is a /32 variant, do you think a variant > for the 16 bit machines like 16xx or MSE14 did survive some- > where? ARTS/32 was for Eagle architecture machines and actually made use of the rings :P. Prior to the Hawk there was a punch (basically a militarization of DG's prints) of the MV/8000 of which something like three were sold; it was about the size of a large modern refrigerator and was sufficiently massive that it had large lifting rings on the top of the cabinet; while sometime someone would fire up the one that lurked in the hardware lab, 99.999% of ARTS/32 (and all of the Marvin) development took place on commercial DG hardware -- MV/8000s for ARTS/32, MV/10000s for Marvin (with MV/4000s used as target machines). I have no idea if any of the software survived anywhere :( It's funny that you mention the MSE14; it was the other punch done by ROLM, basically a S140 stuffed into a 1/2 ATR chassis. IIRC it had a somewhat painful gestation, because mapping the 15x15" S/140 processor onto multiple smaller cards created interesting timing problems. The ADA compiler was developed in partnership with Rational; as part of that deal ROLM was supposed to look at creating a militarized version of the R1000. The R1000 was freaking huge -- much taller than a MV/8000, to the point that getting it into the machine room was a bit of a challenge -- and it turned out it was markedly slower executing Ada code than a MV/8000 running code produced by the ROLM compiler, so in the end that project went more or less nowhere. > >> Steve Wallach had incorporated into the PTE format for the Eagle in >> order to turn memory references into I/O requests that would be >> transparently resolved in the physical memory of another machine. > > Although I do not recognize the "PTE format", I guess the Eagle > project is related to a widely sold US made aircraft, right? This > one carried at least one Hawk/32 ;-) PTE ::= Page Table Entry. "Eagle" was DG's name for the MV architecture; ROLM's "Hawk" was a play on "Eagle" ;) > > Some of the Rolm stuff I have got is from the company which serviced > the equipment of the ATTAS aircraft... > > http://www.dlr.de/dlr/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10644#gallery/1751 > > http://www.dlr.de/dlr/Portaldata/1/Resources/documents/ATTAS_Handout_2001.pdf Huh. Interesting :) >> deal from each other ("Yes, I know that the PATU instruction only occurs >> twice in the body of AOS/VS, but it's executed on every context switch >> and as such it's probably not a really good idea to implement it by >> having the microcode scrub each entry in the TLB"). > > I guess you have not been happy with context switching and how > the Rolm microcode implemented it. IIRC we caught the problem early enough that they were able to come up with a hardware invalidation that did materially what the MV's did and thus we didn't end up paying a terrible performance penalty on context switching. > Unfortunately, there is nothing > on the internet related to the instruction set of the Hawk/32 > family but the hardware contained lot of big custom chips and > therefor I guess it was far more powerful and complex than > e.g. the Eclipse or earlier machines. It's instruction set is identical to the MV/8000, but there's some differences in how it treats "undefined" results and "undefined" bitfields in a handful of instructions, enough to require tweaking the diagnostics. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon May 2 01:06:18 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 23:06:18 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> On 4/27/2016 10:12 PM, Erik Baigar wrote: > > On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> I have my Rolm 1603 working. No peripherals hooked to it, but you can >> toggle in stuff from the front panel. >> http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/rolm1603_f.jpg > > Very cool, Bob - we have been in touch seom years ago and > great, that your machine is still alive! Many thanks for the > picture and two questions out of curiosity: > > (1) The panel is mounted on the rear side (where memory is) of > the processor. Is it wired and powered internally or do > you have to connect the panel to the plugs of the > processor externally? > (2) The 1603 uses the same 5605 processor "sandwich" also > used by the 1602B and not the 9PCBs of the earlier 1602s? > > Keep up taking care of your Rolm, its a very nice and rare > machine... > > Erik Yes, the panel is mounted near the memory and plugs into the bus. I think it's the 5605 processor, four CPU boards + some I/O. More photos of it can be found here: http://www.dvq.com/rolm/ Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 2 02:50:08 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 09:50:08 +0200 Subject: PDP8 MAINDEC ? Message-ID: We have quite a lot of PDP-8 MAINDEC which are duplicates even when taking different versions into account. This include the paper listing and the actual paper tape. Is there an interest in such tapes / documentation? From macro at linux-mips.org Mon May 2 02:13:45 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 08:13:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Any ideas what it might be? I can't help with the chip, except that the manual states it's a 64-Kbyte part. But something has struck me: "When the SROM code has completed its tasks, it normally loads the DROM code and turns control over to it. The SROM checks to see if the DROM contains the proper header and that the checksum is correct. If either check fails, the SROM code reads a location in the TOY NVRAM. The location indicates which console firmware (the SRM or the ARC) should be loaded." -- I think it's highly unlikely that DROM is corrupted *and* it passes the checksum test *and* corrupt DROM code works well enough to progress through any POST stages at all (i.e. change LEDs to anything beyond what SROM has left). So I wonder what else might be causing the symptoms you have seen. SROM console output undoubtedly might help here as DROM might be reporting what it does not like, about NVRAM presumably. One possibility I have in mind is it's something peculiar about DRAM. As you may have been aware DROM code isn't run directly, it's loaded by SROM into DRAM. If it fails a specific bit pattern at a specific location for some reason, then you might see symptoms like these. So shuffling DRAM modules might change something here. Other than that maybe it's NVRAM after all. But what could it be then that did not show up in your testing? Could it be that the settings and environment variables stored there are protected with a checksum (or a signature) which happened to be correct for the random contents after power was restored and that in turn confused DROM diagnostics? Can you wipe NVRAM with your program, reinstall the DROM chip and see if the error returns? I start running out of ideas, and sorry to have misled you into thinking it might be DROM contents which are wrong -- given the checksum protection I think it's highly unlikely after all. Maciej From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 2 03:47:29 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:47:29 +0200 Subject: Only slightly vintage Message-ID: http://jalopnik.com/this-ancient-laptop-is-the-only-key-to-the-most-valuabl-1773662267?utm_content=buffer6b9d6&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer -- Sent from my phone - please pardon brevity & typos. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 2 04:32:37 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 11:32:37 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160502093237.GC20677@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 08:59:50PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our > heaps of documentation. > > Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with everything. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf Wow, that last system :) I wonder what the three leftmost cabinets contains. I don't recall what peripherals have the blinkenlights at the top. RK05 and TU10 controllers perhaps? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 2 04:36:58 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 11:36:58 +0200 Subject: PDP8 MAINDEC ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160502093657.GD20677@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 09:50:08AM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > We have quite a lot of PDP-8 MAINDEC which are duplicates even when taking > different versions into account. This include the paper listing and the > actual paper tape. > > Is there an interest in such tapes / documentation? Do you mean interest in digital copies or are you selling? /P From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon May 2 04:57:23 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:57:23 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure In-Reply-To: <20160502093237.GC20677@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160502093237.GC20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 02/05/2016 10:32, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 08:59:50PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: >> I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our >> heaps of documentation. >> >> Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with everything. >> >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf > Wow, that last system :) I wonder what the three leftmost cabinets > contains. I don't recall what peripherals have the blinkenlights at the > top. RK05 and TU10 controllers perhaps? The panel at the top with the display is almost certainly for a disk drive controller Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 2 05:37:43 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 12:37:43 +0200 Subject: PDP8 MAINDEC ? In-Reply-To: <20160502093657.GD20677@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160502093657.GD20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: 2016-05-02 11:36 GMT+02:00 Pontus Pihlgren : > On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 09:50:08AM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > > We have quite a lot of PDP-8 MAINDEC which are duplicates even when > taking > > different versions into account. This include the paper listing and the > > actual paper tape. > > > > Is there an interest in such tapes / documentation? > > Do you mean interest in digital copies or are you selling? > Selling, trading, giving away. What ever works. Rather than the garbage bin. I have no need for multiple copies. Just checking if someone like to play with the real paper tapes. When it comes to digital copies the plan is to check what is already online and then scan / read those that aren't. But it is a long time plan since it takes quite a while. Unless you feel like helping out... A page feed scanner and a couple of thousands of pages. /Mattis > > /P > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 2 06:14:23 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 13:14:23 +0200 Subject: PDP8 MAINDEC ? In-Reply-To: References: <20160502093657.GD20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20160502111423.GE20677@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 12:37:43PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Selling, trading, giving away. What ever works. Rather than the garbage > bin. I have no need for multiple copies. Just checking if someone like to > play with the real paper tapes. > > When it comes to digital copies the plan is to check what is already online > and then scan / read those that aren't. But it is a long time plan since it > takes quite a while. Unless you feel like helping out... A page feed > scanner and a couple of thousands of pages. > :-) Sounds like a weekend at Dalby. Anyway, actual papertape Maindec is always welcome, with or without listings. I suppose I should pickup that VAX first... /P From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Mon May 2 06:55:47 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 08:55:47 -0300 Subject: PDP8 MAINDEC ? In-Reply-To: <20160502111423.GE20677@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160502093657.GD20677@Update.UU.SE> <20160502111423.GE20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I add myself to the donatiom queue. But since I dont have real gear, I'm the last in order Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 02/05/2016 08:14, "Pontus Pihlgren" escreveu: > On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 12:37:43PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > Selling, trading, giving away. What ever works. Rather than the garbage > > bin. I have no need for multiple copies. Just checking if someone like to > > play with the real paper tapes. > > > > When it comes to digital copies the plan is to check what is already > online > > and then scan / read those that aren't. But it is a long time plan since > it > > takes quite a while. Unless you feel like helping out... A page feed > > scanner and a couple of thousands of pages. > > > > :-) Sounds like a weekend at Dalby. > > Anyway, actual papertape Maindec is always welcome, with or without > listings. I suppose I should pickup that VAX first... > > /P > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon May 2 08:48:11 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 09:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update Message-ID: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Lancashire > Do you or someone have a list of all the Unibus bus chips ? I have seen the following bus interface chips used on DEC UNIBUS boards: Drivers: 8881 - Sprague, Signetics - Quad NAND Receivers: 380 - Signetics - Quad NOR 314 - Signetics - 7-input NOR 8815 - Signetics - 4-input NOR 8837 - National Semi - Hex receiver (aka Signetics N8T37) 8640 - National Semi - Quad NOR Transceivers: 8641 - National Semi - Quad transceiver The actal complete part number can vary depending on the manufacturer; e.g. the 8641's are usually DS8641N, from NatSemi, and the 380's are usually SP380A's or SP380N's. Where the basic number is not included (as with the 8T37 for the 8837) I have given it. The following chips have been used by DEC to interface to the QBUS, and I have seen many of the above chips (e.g. 8641's) used there too, so I think chips seen on one bus could be used on the other: Drivers: 7439 - Various - Quad NAND Transceivers: 2908 - AMD - Quad latching transceiver with tri-state output I _believe_ the following chips are also usable as UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips, but I'm not sure if I've seen one used there: Transceivers: 8836 - National Semi - Quad NOR 8838 - National Semi - Quad transceiver (aka Signetics N8T38) Quite a zoo! Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 2 08:56:43 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 15:56:43 +0200 Subject: Parts for CDC CMD drive. Message-ID: http://bit.ly/23iTFO1 A couple of spindle motors, blower and some electronics. For the cost of shipping. /Mattis From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 2 09:04:26 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:04:26 +0200 Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > The following chips have been used by DEC to interface to the QBUS, and > I have seen many of the above chips (e.g. 8641's) used there too, so I > think chips seen on one bus could be used on the other: > > Drivers: > > 7439 - Various - Quad NAND > > Transceivers: > > 2908 - AMD - Quad latching transceiver with tri-state output > > I _believe_ the following chips are also usable as UNIBUS/QBUS interface > chips, but I'm not sure if I've seen one used there: > > Transceivers: > > 8836 - National Semi - Quad NOR > 8838 - National Semi - Quad transceiver (aka Signetics N8T38) > > Quite a zoo! > DEC also used the DEC DC005 for the data and address lines on QBUS cards. The Signetics code is C2324N /Mattis > > Noel > From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 2 09:17:50 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:17:50 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure In-Reply-To: References: <20160502093237.GC20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: 2016-05-02 11:57 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood : > > > On 02/05/2016 10:32, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 08:59:50PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >>> I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our >>> heaps of documentation. >>> >>> Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with >>> everything. >>> >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf >>> >> Wow, that last system :) I wonder what the three leftmost cabinets >> contains. I don't recall what peripherals have the blinkenlights at the >> top. RK05 and TU10 controllers perhaps? >> > The panel at the top with the display is almost certainly for a disk drive > controller > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > I think that the top blinkenlights panel in the second from left cabinet is a RF08 controller. No guess for the other one. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 2 09:55:38 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:55:38 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure In-Reply-To: <20160502093237.GC20677@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160502093237.GC20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5B6D994F-6336-4DF3-BCB5-9D92BFCBDD47@comcast.net> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 08:59:50PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our > heaps of documentation. > > Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with everything. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf "System with everything". Neat. I remember RSTS development had an 11/70 system that was intended to have "two of everything". Everything then supported by RSTS/E, that is. So of course its node name was "ARK". At some point the number of supported peripherals got to the point where they couldn't live on a single machine any longer, either that or we needed more CPU for the team size, and a second machine ("GROK", an 11/44) was added to hold "the rest of the supported devices". Actually, ARK had some unsupported stuff on it, for example an RP07. That worked fine on an 11/70 (though not on any machine -- you needed the high speed Massbus found only there) but DEC never officially supported it. paul From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 03:39:34 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 09:39:34 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej > W. Rozycki > Sent: 02 May 2016 08:14 > To: Robert Jarratt > Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > On Sun, 1 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > Any ideas what it might be? > > I can't help with the chip, except that the manual states it's a 64-Kbyte part. > But something has struck me: > > "When the SROM code has completed its tasks, it normally loads the DROM > code and turns control over to it. The SROM checks to see if the DROM > contains the proper header and that the checksum is correct. If either check > fails, the SROM code reads a location in the TOY NVRAM. The location > indicates which console firmware (the SRM or the ARC) should be loaded." > > -- I think it's highly unlikely that DROM is corrupted *and* it passes the > checksum test *and* corrupt DROM code works well enough to progress > through any POST stages at all (i.e. change LEDs to anything beyond what > SROM has left). So I wonder what else might be causing the symptoms you > have seen. SROM console output undoubtedly might help here as DROM > might be reporting what it does not like, about NVRAM presumably. I suppose I should find or construct a diagnostic port adapter. I suppose I am slightly put off by the effort needed to make one as I don't have the components needed to hand. I may just have to bite this bullet. > > One possibility I have in mind is it's something peculiar about DRAM. > As you may have been aware DROM code isn't run directly, it's loaded by > SROM into DRAM. If it fails a specific bit pattern at a specific location for > some reason, then you might see symptoms like these. So shuffling DRAM > modules might change something here. I will give this a go, but it seems unlikely as the machine is able to run VMS, and I assume it must be passing at least some basic memory tests. > > Other than that maybe it's NVRAM after all. But what could it be then that > did not show up in your testing? Could it be that the settings and > environment variables stored there are protected with a checksum (or a > signature) which happened to be correct for the random contents after > power was restored and that in turn confused DROM diagnostics? Can you > wipe NVRAM with your program, reinstall the DROM chip and see if the error > returns? This thought has crossed my mind. However, since I had to change the battery that backs up the NVRAM in any case, then surely the memory would have been zeroed? This NVRAM is battery backed, right? The NVRAM does contain data, I have verified this with my program, so something is repopulating it after the battery has been changed. I am slightly reluctant to zero the memory on purpose in case I can no longer boot the machine (I would save the contents before zeroing of course). > > I start running out of ideas, and sorry to have misled you into thinking it > might be DROM contents which are wrong -- given the checksum protection I > think it's highly unlikely after all. Not to worry, your thoughts and suggestions have helped hugely. Thanks again Rob From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon May 2 04:42:21 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 02 May 2016 10:42:21 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 02 May 2016 09:39:34 +0100" <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <"013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$"@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <"20160430165914.C9 5962073C37"@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01PZP5Y5G97O00D9FB@beyondthepale.ie> > > > > One possibility I have in mind is it's something peculiar about DRAM. > > As you may have been aware DROM code isn't run directly, it's loaded by > > SROM into DRAM. If it fails a specific bit pattern at a specific location > > some reason, then you might see symptoms like these. So shuffling DRAM > > modules might change something here. > > I will give this a go, but it seems unlikely as the machine is able to run > VMS, and I assume it must be passing at least some basic memory tests. > Perhaps VMS could be working around correctable memory errors that SROM is not able to cope with? If this is the case, $ SHOW ERROR should give a clue and there should be further information in the error log. (I'm not sure how you display that since the functioning of $ ANALYZE /ERROR got messed up on Alpha some time ago.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon May 2 10:26:02 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 11:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure Message-ID: <20160502152602.56BE218C0F8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pontus Pihlgren > I wonder what the three leftmost cabinets contains. I don't recall what > peripherals have the blinkenlights at the top. RK05 and TU10 > controllers perhaps? I have a half-done page with images of all the 5-1/4 inch indicator panels (PDP-8, -11, -15); so I can identify the indicator panel on the right (above to the two DECTape drives), which is a TC08 DECTape controller (I have a large picture of one of those, for the page, and that's definitely it), which makes sense, given it's in the same cabinet as the DECTape drives. The other one, I have no idea - anyone? I'm pretty sure it's not an RK08. The RK08, like the RK11-C, was wired for an indicator panel, but like the TM08, it only used two rows of lights. (I've never seen an image of one: this is deduced from reading the engineering drawings.) The partial page is here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html if anyone is interested. Good images of the missing 5-1/4" indicator panels (which also include the RF11 and FP15, as well as the mythical RK11, which may not exist) gratefully accepted! Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 11:47:33 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 17:47:33 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> > I suppose I should find or construct a diagnostic port adapter. I suppose I am > slightly put off by the effort needed to make one as I don't have the > components needed to hand. I may just have to bite this bullet. > I decided to attempt the construction of an adapter. But it is the connectors which always bite me because I don't know what all the types of connector are. I naively assumed that an IDC 10-way (2x5) would do the trick, but it is too wide to go into the male connector on the board. What kinds of connectors exist for ribbon cables that can be used to go into a 2x5 connector, but which don't have a lot of space at the sides? I have posted a picture of the connector here: http://bit.ly/1SV6QBX. It is the black 2x5 connector in the middle marked J7. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 11:47:33 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 17:47:33 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> > I suppose I should find or construct a diagnostic port adapter. I suppose I am > slightly put off by the effort needed to make one as I don't have the > components needed to hand. I may just have to bite this bullet. > I decided to attempt the construction of an adapter. But it is the connectors which always bite me because I don't know what all the types of connector are. I naively assumed that an IDC 10-way (2x5) would do the trick, but it is too wide to go into the male connector on the board. What kinds of connectors exist for ribbon cables that can be used to go into a 2x5 connector, but which don't have a lot of space at the sides? I have posted a picture of the connector here: http://bit.ly/1SV6QBX. It is the black 2x5 connector in the middle marked J7. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 12:39:50 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 18:39:50 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <01PZP5Y5G97O00D9FB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <"013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$"@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <"20160430165914.C9 5962073C37"@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <01PZP5Y5G 97O00D9FB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <006a01d1a499$a1151500$e33f3f00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan > Sent: 02 May 2016 10:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > > > > > > One possibility I have in mind is it's something peculiar about DRAM. > > > As you may have been aware DROM code isn't run directly, it's loaded > > > by SROM into DRAM. If it fails a specific bit pattern at a specific > > > location some reason, then you might see symptoms like these. So > > > shuffling DRAM modules might change something here. > > > > I will give this a go, but it seems unlikely as the machine is able to > > run VMS, and I assume it must be passing at least some basic memory > tests. > > > > Perhaps VMS could be working around correctable memory errors that > SROM is not able to cope with? If this is the case, > > $ SHOW ERROR > That just says: %SHOW-S-NOERRORS, no device errors found > should give a clue and there should be further information in the error log. > (I'm not sure how you display that since the functioning of $ ANALYZE > /ERROR got messed up on Alpha some time ago.) > I tried SHOW MEMORY, but that seemed good. ANALYZE/ERROR said I should install DECevent and run conversion utility. Not sure about that one. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 12:39:50 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 18:39:50 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <01PZP5Y5G97O00D9FB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <"013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$"@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <"20160430165914.C9 5962073C37"@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <01PZP5Y5G 97O00D9FB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <006a01d1a499$a1151500$e33f3f00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan > Sent: 02 May 2016 10:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > > > > > > One possibility I have in mind is it's something peculiar about DRAM. > > > As you may have been aware DROM code isn't run directly, it's loaded > > > by SROM into DRAM. If it fails a specific bit pattern at a specific > > > location some reason, then you might see symptoms like these. So > > > shuffling DRAM modules might change something here. > > > > I will give this a go, but it seems unlikely as the machine is able to > > run VMS, and I assume it must be passing at least some basic memory > tests. > > > > Perhaps VMS could be working around correctable memory errors that > SROM is not able to cope with? If this is the case, > > $ SHOW ERROR > That just says: %SHOW-S-NOERRORS, no device errors found > should give a clue and there should be further information in the error log. > (I'm not sure how you display that since the functioning of $ ANALYZE > /ERROR got messed up on Alpha some time ago.) > I tried SHOW MEMORY, but that seemed good. ANALYZE/ERROR said I should install DECevent and run conversion utility. Not sure about that one. Regards Rob From north at alum.mit.edu Mon May 2 13:07:21 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 11:07:21 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: References: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57279759.40506@alum.mit.edu> On 5/2/2016 7:04 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> The following chips have been used by DEC to interface to the QBUS, and >> I have seen many of the above chips (e.g. 8641's) used there too, so I >> think chips seen on one bus could be used on the other: >> >> Drivers: >> >> 7439 - Various - Quad NAND >> >> Transceivers: >> >> 2908 - AMD - Quad latching transceiver with tri-state output >> >> I _believe_ the following chips are also usable as UNIBUS/QBUS interface >> chips, but I'm not sure if I've seen one used there: >> >> Transceivers: >> >> 8836 - National Semi - Quad NOR >> 8838 - National Semi - Quad transceiver (aka Signetics N8T38) >> >> Quite a zoo! >> > DEC also used the DEC DC005 for the data and address lines on QBUS cards. > The Signetics code is C2324N DEC also used the DC005 (8 pcs) for address / data interface on the M8739 KLESI (Aztec/RC25) UNIBUS interface card. DC013's were used for the NPR/NPG and BR/BG logic. Don From thebri at gmail.com Mon May 2 13:07:36 2016 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 14:07:36 -0400 Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: References: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I did a bit of searching in the fall for an 8881 (to fix a busted HALT instruction on a PDP8a). I concluded the 7439 is a pin-for-pin replacement - I can't claim all credit for this, it's probably known by a few people here. My notes say the 8881 will handle 30mA loads. The 7401 will handle 16mA, while the 7439 will handle 80mA. Cheers! b On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > The following chips have been used by DEC to interface to the QBUS, and > > I have seen many of the above chips (e.g. 8641's) used there too, so I > > think chips seen on one bus could be used on the other: > > > > Drivers: > > > > 7439 - Various - Quad NAND > > > > Transceivers: > > > > 2908 - AMD - Quad latching transceiver with tri-state output > > > > I _believe_ the following chips are also usable as UNIBUS/QBUS interface > > chips, but I'm not sure if I've seen one used there: > > > > Transceivers: > > > > 8836 - National Semi - Quad NOR > > 8838 - National Semi - Quad transceiver (aka Signetics N8T38) > > > > Quite a zoo! > > > > DEC also used the DEC DC005 for the data and address lines on QBUS cards. > The Signetics code is C2324N > > /Mattis > > > > > > Noel > > > From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 2 14:59:08 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 21:59:08 +0200 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. Message-ID: Yet another nice color brochure. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a red and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to explain how that works? If I read the fine print on the back correctly (and comparing with the others) I would guess that this brochure is from 1971. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 2 15:21:09 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:21:09 -0400 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 2, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Yet another nice color brochure. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf > > Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a red > and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to > explain how that works? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetron. The idea is that there are two layers, and a high voltage beam pokes through the first to activate the second. I think Tektronix made monitors of this type, but apparently GE invented them. I remember hearing about that technology in the 1970s; I never actually saw one in the wild (from any manufacturer). > If I read the fine print on the back correctly (and comparing with the > others) I would guess that this brochure is from 1971. Assuming that 00771 is a date code, yes. The cover photo is interesting (PDP11 with PDP12 color scheme!) but the console looks like an LA30. I didn't know those were out in 1971. The first (and fortunately only) one I encountered was in 1974. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 2 15:32:25 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 13:32:25 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <101af11c-e6c0-f766-5582-57a18fdb932d@bitsavers.org> On 5/2/16 1:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I think Tektronix made monitors of this type Tek 1241 http://www.barrytech.com/tektronix/logic_analyzers/tek1241.html and DAS 9100 logic analyzers used them. You could get red, green, and yellow From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 2 15:35:21 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 13:35:21 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: <101af11c-e6c0-f766-5582-57a18fdb932d@bitsavers.org> References: <101af11c-e6c0-f766-5582-57a18fdb932d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6f631e27-1a09-0075-9dbf-277289cc378c@bitsavers.org> On 5/2/16 1:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/2/16 1:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> I think Tektronix made monitors of this type > > Tek 1241 > http://www.barrytech.com/tektronix/logic_analyzers/tek1241.html > and DAS 9100 logic analyzers used them. > You could get red, green, and yellow http://www.barrytech.com/tektronix/logic_analyzers/tekdas9100.html From anders at abc80.net Mon May 2 12:18:36 2016 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 19:18:36 +0200 Subject: PDP8 MAINDEC ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 12:37:43 +0200 >From: Mattis Lind >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: PDP8 MAINDEC ? > Selling, trading, giving away. What ever works. Rather than the garbage > bin. I have no need for multiple copies. Just checking if someone like to > play with the real paper tapes. > When it comes to digital copies the plan is to check what is already online > and then scan / read those that aren't. But it is a long time plan since it > takes quite a while. Unless you feel like helping out... A page feed scanner and a couple of thousands of pages. > > /Mattis I can take good care of (some part of) it, a bit depending on which tapes and documents you have. /Anders From mark at markesystems.com Mon May 2 13:43:49 2016 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 11:43:49 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> > I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit > hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked > small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which > might > be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. VB4 was a bridge between 16-bit Windows 3.1 applications and 32-bit everything later (such as the DOS-based Win-95, -98, and -ME, and all of the NT-based operating systems, which is everything else through Win-10 64-bit). As such, the package included both a 16-bit an 32-bit compiler. If your application was compiled using the 16-bit version, you're pretty much stuck with XP-32 or earlier (in a VM, if necessary), as it will automatically spawn a 16-bit virtual environment (ntvdm.exe) to run the 16-bit applications. Win7 and beyond, and all 64-bit versions, do not support this feature (I supported a VB3 application for 20 years; Win7 was what finally broke it for good.) If it was compiled to 32-bit, then you should be pretty much good to go; you may run into a few insurmountable problems with some now unsupported OCX's. Other than those, all of the 32-bit code should run fine on anything current. If you have the source, you're also in pretty good shape. VB4 is very easy to port to VB6; there were almost no backward-incompatible features of the later Visual Basic classic languages. Find an old copy of VB6 SP6, re-compile it (perhaps replacing some of the failed OCXs with others that will work - a common one was DBGrid, which is quite easy to replace with FlexGrid), and you're golden. I currently support just such an application, and although the development environment requires a couple of tricks to get working smoothly, the compiled application works just fine on Win10-64. Drop me a note off-line if you'd like any additional or more specific help with this; I have a reasonable amount of experience with just this problem. Of course, there are always older versions of Wine... ~~ Mark Moulding From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon May 2 16:39:07 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 14:39:07 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On May 2, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > Yet another nice color brochure. > > > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf > > > > Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a red > > and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to > > explain how that works? > > See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetron. The idea is that there are > two layers, and a high voltage beam pokes through the first to activate the > second. > > I'm not sure that the Penetron is what DEC was using; according to http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/vc8e.html: "If the CO (color) bit changes because of the value loaded, and if the VC8E is equipped to handle this option, a timer will be started to set the DN (done) bit after either 300 microseconds (green to red) or 1600 microseconds (red to green). These delays correspond to the time taken by the VR20 display for these color changes." According the Penetron wiki page, additional activation energy was provided by a "set of fine wires placed behind the screen"; whereas the VC8E apparently is setting the color by timing the beam. So yes, it seems to be an activation energy phenomenon, but not specifically the Penetron technology. My physics fu isn't good enough to explain how, but I would guess at some very non-linear phosphorescence response. -- Charles From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon May 2 16:40:41 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 21:40:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1250097222.5022800.1462225241498.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Monday, May 2, 2016 1:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > On May 2, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Yet another nice color brochure. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf > > Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a red > and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to > explain how that works? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetron. The idea is that there are two layers, and a high voltage beam pokes through the first to activate the second. I think Tektronix made monitors of this type, but apparently GE invented them.? I remember hearing about that technology in the 1970s; I never actually saw one in the wild (from any manufacturer). > If I read the fine print on the back correctly (and comparing with the > others) I would guess that this brochure is from 1971. Assuming that 00771 is a date code, yes.? The cover photo is interesting (PDP11 with PDP12 color scheme!) but the console looks like an LA30.? I didn't know those were out in 1971.? The first (and fortunately only) one I encountered was in 1974. ??? paul I believe they used a beam penetration tube in the VR20. I have an HP 1338A that uses that technology.Google it, it's interesting. Bob From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon May 2 17:18:24 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 18:18:24 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <5725219A.1070103@sydex.com> References: <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> <201604302107.RAA04188@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5725219A.1070103@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2016-04-30 5:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/30/2016 02:07 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> Reading this really gives me the impression that it's time to fork >> C. There seems to me to be a need for two different languages, which >> I might slightly inaccurately call the one C used to be and the one >> it has become (and is becoming). > > > I vividly recall back in the 80s trying to take what we learned about > aggressive optimization of Fortran (or FORTRAN, take your pick) and > apply it to C. One of the tougher nuts was the issue of pointers. > While pointers are typed in C (including void), it's very difficult for > an automatic optimizer to figure out exactly what's being pointed to, > particularly when a pointer is passed as arguments or re-used. Indeed. John Regehr writes more on this in this recent post: http://blog.regehr.org/archives/1307 --Toby > > C++, to be sure, is much better in this respect. > > --Chuck > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 2 17:19:06 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 15:19:06 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1A7E5417-4A5A-4447-A4B1-C7F17AB304BB@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-02, at 2:39 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On May 2, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >>> >>> Yet another nice color brochure. >>> >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf >>> >>> Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a red >>> and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to >>> explain how that works? >> >> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetron. The idea is that there are >> two layers, and a high voltage beam pokes through the first to activate the >> second. >> > I'm not sure that the Penetron is what DEC was using; according to > http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/vc8e.html: > > "If the CO (color) bit changes because of the value loaded, and if the VC8E > is equipped to handle this option, a timer will be started to set the DN > (done) bit after either 300 microseconds (green to red) or 1600 > microseconds (red to green). These delays correspond to the time taken by > the VR20 display for these color changes." > > According the Penetron wiki page, additional activation energy was provided > by a "set of fine wires placed behind the screen"; whereas the VC8E > apparently is setting the color by timing the beam. > > So yes, it seems to be an activation energy phenomenon, but not > specifically the Penetron technology. My physics fu isn't good enough to > explain how, but I would guess at some very non-linear phosphorescence > response. > Might have had to do with the time taken to switch the HV supply (for a Penetron) for the different penetration levels rather than a different phosphor-exciting scheme. Although, is that interface even at the scan level relating directly to the display tube, or at a controller level where it might be an artifact of the controller electronics? From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon May 2 18:36:38 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:36:38 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: <1A7E5417-4A5A-4447-A4B1-C7F17AB304BB@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1A7E5417-4A5A-4447-A4B1-C7F17AB304BB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 3:19 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-May-02, at 2:39 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Paul Koning > wrote: > >>> On May 2, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >>> > >>> Yet another nice color brochure. > >>> > >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf > >>> > >>> Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a > red > >>> and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to > >>> explain how that works? > >> > >> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetron. The idea is that there are > >> two layers, and a high voltage beam pokes through the first to activate > the > >> second. > >> > > I'm not sure that the Penetron is what DEC was using; according to > > http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/vc8e.html: > > > > "If the CO (color) bit changes because of the value loaded, and if the > VC8E > > is equipped to handle this option, a timer will be started to set the DN > > (done) bit after either 300 microseconds (green to red) or 1600 > > microseconds (red to green). These delays correspond to the time taken by > > the VR20 display for these color changes." > > > > According the Penetron wiki page, additional activation energy was > provided > > by a "set of fine wires placed behind the screen"; whereas the VC8E > > apparently is setting the color by timing the beam. > > > > So yes, it seems to be an activation energy phenomenon, but not > > specifically the Penetron technology. My physics fu isn't good enough to > > explain how, but I would guess at some very non-linear phosphorescence > > response. > > > > Might have had to do with the time taken to switch the HV supply (for a > Penetron) for the different penetration levels rather than a different > phosphor-exciting scheme. Although, is that interface even at the scan > level relating directly to the display tube, or at a controller level where > it might be an artifact of the controller electronics? Context: I have never seen any of these beasts, and I am a s/w guy that dabbles in h/w. All of my opinions herein are derived from my reading DEC documents to write vector display emulators. I may talking through my hat here.... http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-HLPMA-B-D%20LPS11-S%20Laboratory%20Peripheral%20System%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf "3.4.6.2 Green Mode -- ... The intensify pule is used to intensify the point on the scope. ... approximately 1 us." "3.4.6.2 Red Mode -- ... 6 us." I can't locate any VR20 documentation, so other than pulse width input to the VR20 I am unable to speculate further; it may well be that Penetron technology was used, but the wording of the controller made it seem to me otherwise, but I am more than prepared to be wrong -- it is perfectly possible that the VR20 is controlling a Penetron based on the pulse width. -- Charles From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon May 2 18:46:39 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:46:39 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: <1A7E5417-4A5A-4447-A4B1-C7F17AB304BB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > > > I can't locate any VR20 documentation, so other than pulse width input to > the VR20 I am unable to speculate further; it may well be that Penetron > technology was used, but the wording of the controller made it seem to me > otherwise, but I am more than prepared to be wrong -- it is perfectly > possible that the VR20 is controlling a Penetron based on the pulse width. > > Hmm. The Rhode Island Computer Museum has a working VR20. We need to get them to take a look inside it to see what kind of CRT tube is in there.... -- Charles From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon May 2 21:06:14 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 02 May 2016 22:06:14 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler 40th birthday presents... Message-ID: <16ef01d1a4e0$5f39ad20$1dad0760$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Check it out: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/dazzler.html More to come. Bill S. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon May 2 23:48:34 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 22:48:34 -0600 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 2:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetron. The idea is that there are two layers, and a high voltage beam pokes through the first to activate the second. > I think Tektronix made monitors of this type, but apparently GE invented them. I remember hearing about that technology in the 1970s; I never actually saw one in the wild (from any manufacturer). I'd never heard it called a "Penetron" before; I'm not sure if that was a trademark (perhaps of GE), but the generic term was "beam penetration CRT". I've never seen the DEC VR20, but I have an HP 1338A color XY display that uses this technology to produce multicolor displays with red, green, and yellow. Although the technology was invented for color TV, I've never seen a beam penetration CRT with any blue phosphor. I hadn't heard of it being used in Tektronix oscilloscopes, but I'm not surprised. They also used it in the DAS9120 series logic analyzers, with the DAS9129 mainframe being the color display versions of the more common DAS9100, and in the later 1241 logic analyzer. As with the HP 1338A, the colors are red, green, and yellow. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon May 2 23:50:46 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 22:50:46 -0600 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: <1A7E5417-4A5A-4447-A4B1-C7F17AB304BB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > Hmm. The Rhode Island Computer Museum has a working VR20. We need to get > them to take a look inside it to see what kind of CRT tube is in there.... It hardly matters, since it's a beam penetration CRT that was custom made for DEC and isn't used in *anything* else. Barring a major miracle, the only way you'll ever get another suitable tube is out of another VR20. From macro at linux-mips.org Mon May 2 16:56:05 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 22:56:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Other than that maybe it's NVRAM after all. But what could it be then > that > > did not show up in your testing? Could it be that the settings and > > environment variables stored there are protected with a checksum (or a > > signature) which happened to be correct for the random contents after > > power was restored and that in turn confused DROM diagnostics? Can you > > wipe NVRAM with your program, reinstall the DROM chip and see if the error > > returns? > > > This thought has crossed my mind. However, since I had to change the battery > that backs up the NVRAM in any case, then surely the memory would have been > zeroed? This NVRAM is battery backed, right? The NVRAM does contain data, I > have verified this with my program, so something is repopulating it after > the battery has been changed. I am slightly reluctant to zero the memory on > purpose in case I can no longer boot the machine (I would save the contents > before zeroing of course). I don't think you can assume power-cycling NVRAM (which is effectively what you've done here by putting a new battery) will zero it. It would if there was some kind of a reset signal asserted at poweron that would set the flip-flops to a known state. But the KM6264B chip does not appear to have such a feature, nor an external reset input. So we need to assume its contents are random after a powerup. Have you ever used Sinclair ZX Spectrum? It had its video adapter active from powerup and you could briefly see the random contents of video RAM on the screen. I understand your reluctance. The NVRAM is indeed supposed to be backed with the same battery the RTC is. There's just a slight chance the battery circuit is not operating correctly. There's no battery status bit in the NVRAM, but there is one in the RTC. You should be able to verify it with: >>> d -b pmem:1c0000e00 0d >>> e -b pmem:1c0000e20 this will read BQ4285 RTC chip's register D. If this comes out as 80, then the battery is giving power to the chip. If this is 00, then there is no battery power available. Of course a broken PCB trace could make battery power reach one of the two chips only. BTW, does your SRM console have a TEST command? If so, then have you tried it? Of course it might want to call into DROM and thus fail rather spectacularly if it's absent, but chances are it might not and you may get useful output from it. Maciej From aloha at blastpuppy.com Mon May 2 21:51:52 2016 From: aloha at blastpuppy.com (Robert Johnson) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 19:51:52 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> Message-ID: <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> While I can?t however speak to the vagaries of VB4 specifically, I?m reasonably certain (having run 16-bit only software on windows 7 and 8) that ll 32-bit versions of windows continue to support NTVDM/16-bit applications. With windows 8 you have to install the subsystem (its not installed by default) but it does work. Robert Johnson --- Telegram: @alohawolf AIM:AlohaWulf Skype:AlohaWolf Telephone:+1-562-286-4255 C*NET: 18219881 Email:aloha at blastpuppy.com Email:alohawolf at gmail.com -- "Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of "crackpot" than the stigma of conformity." - Thomas J. Watson Sr. > On May 2, 2016, at 11:43 AM, mark at markesystems.com wrote: > >> I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit >> hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked >> small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might >> be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. > > VB4 was a bridge between 16-bit Windows 3.1 applications and 32-bit everything later (such as the DOS-based Win-95, -98, and -ME, and all of the NT-based operating systems, which is everything else through Win-10 64-bit). As such, the package included both a 16-bit an 32-bit compiler. If your application was compiled using the 16-bit version, you're pretty much stuck with XP-32 or earlier (in a VM, if necessary), as it will automatically spawn a 16-bit virtual environment (ntvdm.exe) to run the 16-bit applications. Win7 and beyond, and all 64-bit versions, do not support this feature (I supported a VB3 application for 20 years; Win7 was what finally broke it for good.) > > If it was compiled to 32-bit, then you should be pretty much good to go; you may run into a few insurmountable problems with some now unsupported OCX's. Other than those, all of the 32-bit code should run fine on anything current. > > If you have the source, you're also in pretty good shape. VB4 is very easy to port to VB6; there were almost no backward-incompatible features of the later Visual Basic classic languages. Find an old copy of VB6 SP6, re-compile it (perhaps replacing some of the failed OCXs with others that will work - a common one was DBGrid, which is quite easy to replace with FlexGrid), and you're golden. I currently support just such an application, and although the development environment requires a couple of tricks to get working smoothly, the compiled application works just fine on Win10-64. > > Drop me a note off-line if you'd like any additional or more specific help with this; I have a reasonable amount of experience with just this problem. > > Of course, there are always older versions of Wine... > ~~ > Mark Moulding > From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 2 22:24:41 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 20:24:41 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> Message-ID: <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> On 05/02/2016 07:51 PM, Robert Johnson wrote: > > While I can?t however speak to the vagaries of VB4 specifically, I?m > reasonably certain (having run 16-bit only software on windows 7 and > 8) that ll 32-bit versions of windows continue to support > NTVDM/16-bit applications. With windows 8 you have to install the > subsystem (its not installed by default) but it does work. That's the rub--I believe that Mark said that he was using Win 10 64-bit. The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code natively in 64 bit mode. WINE is probably pretty good, or DOSBox, or VirtualBox--something that can emulate/translate the 16-bit code to something that 64 bit Windows can run. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon May 2 23:54:54 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 21:54:54 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 2, 2016 9:48 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > > I hadn't heard of it being used in Tektronix oscilloscopes, but I'm > not surprised. They also used it in the DAS9120 series logic > analyzers, with the DAS9129 mainframe being the color display versions > of the more common DAS9100, and in the later 1241 logic analyzer. As > with the HP 1338A, the colors are red, green, and yellow. I thought the 1241 used a conventional CRT with a Liquid Crystal Color Shutter in front of it. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 01:06:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 23:06:12 -0700 Subject: Only slightly vintage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57283FD4.2020902@sydex.com> On 05/02/2016 01:47 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > http://jalopnik.com/this-ancient-laptop-is-the-only-key-to-the-most-valuabl-1773662267 The comments from the kids are a riot--and causes me to despair. i.e., COBALT? --Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue May 3 01:19:12 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 08:19:12 +0200 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160503061912.GA18289@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 09:59:08PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > Yet another nice color brochure. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf > > Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a red > and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to > explain how that works? Unfortunately not. The printset that came with my GAMMA-11 suggests that it should be used with a three color scope. Unfortunately I didn't get the scope. /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue May 3 01:23:35 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 08:23:35 +0200 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160503062334.GB18289@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 04:21:09PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > > The cover photo is interesting (PDP11 with PDP12 color scheme!) > It's the "LAB" color scheme. There was a LAB-8/e which has the same colors. And there was at least one blue PDP-12 and one orange. I think the market segment or purpose dictated the color more than anything. /P From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 3 08:01:10 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 15:01:10 +0200 Subject: Plan9 and Inferno (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <1722910236.2821634.1461941486317.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1722910236.2821634.1461941486317.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1722910236.2821634.1461941486317.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 29 April 2016 at 16:51, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > On Thu, 4/28/16, Liam Proven wrote: >>>> The efforts to fix and improve Unix -- Plan 9, Inferno -- forgotten. >> >> It is, true, but it's a sideline now. And the steps made by Inferno >> seem to have had even less impact. I'd like to see the 2 merged back >> into 1. > > Actually, it's best not to think of Inferno as a successor to Plan 9, but > as an offshoot. Understood. I *think* I understand the motivations for wanting Plan 9 over Inferno, for example retaining fondness for native CPU compilation over VMs -- but TBH, given the relatively small influence of either platform on the wider world, and the close relationship between them, I don't see there being sufficient differentiation to keep both alive. But I do not understand the OSes, the communities and so on well enough; mine is an outsider's perspective. > The real story has more to do with Lucent internal > dynamics than to do with attempting to develop a better research > platform. Plan 9 has always been a good platform for research, and > the fact that it's the most pleasant development environment I've > ever used is a nice plus. However, Inferno was created to be a > platform for products. Well, yes, but Java won that war, ISTM. And now that Java is losing that niche too, it's time to strike out for new ground, IMHO. > The Inferno kernel was basically forked from > the 2nd Edition Plan9 kernel, and naturally there are some places > that differ from the current 4th Edition Plan 9 kernel. However, a > number of the differences have been resolved over the years, and > the same guy does most of the maintenance of the compiler suite that's > used for native Inferno builds and for Plan 9. Although you usually > can't just drop driver code from one kernel into the other, the differences > are not so great as to make the port difficult. So both still exist and > both still get some development as people who care decide to make > changes, but they've never really been in a position to merge. > > And BTW, if you like the objectives of the Limbo language in Inferno, > you'll find a lot of the ideas and lessons learned from it in Go. After > all, Rob Pike and Ken Thompson were two of the main people behind > Go and, of course, they had been at the labs, primarily working on > Plan 9, before moving to Google. I am sure you're right but as a non-programmer myself, I'm not very interested in new languages for the traditional Unix stack. It's the OS stuff that interests me personally. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Tue May 3 08:50:23 2016 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (fritz_chwolka@web.de) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 15:50:23 +0200 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler 40th birthday presents... In-Reply-To: <16ef01d1a4e0$5f39ad20$1dad0760$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <16ef01d1a4e0$5f39ad20$1dad0760$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5728AC9F.5000905@web.de> Am 03.05.2016 um 04:06 schrieb Bill Sudbrink: > Check it out: > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/dazzler.html > > More to come. > > Bill S. > > > > Look at : http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/manuals/dazzler/index.html greetings From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 3 07:54:27 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:54:27 +0200 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> Message-ID: On 2 May 2016 at 20:43, wrote: > If you have the source, you're also in pretty good shape. The OP has specifically stated that he does not have the source, and that the company which wrote the app no longer exists. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 3 07:57:01 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:57:01 +0200 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3 May 2016 at 05:24, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code natively in 64 bit > mode. I think you mean software? It is possible to run Windows 7's XP Mode under Windows 8.x -- I've done it. http://www.howtogeek.com/171395/how-to-get-windows-xp-mode-on-windows-8/ This *might* work on Win10. I have also successfully run the XP Mode VM using VirtualBox under Ubuntu; I described how to here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/04/10/how_to_run_xp_on_new_windows/ However, this requires either a licence key or stripping the copy-protection out of Windows. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue May 3 09:20:06 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 07:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 May 2016 at 05:24, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code natively in 64 bit >> mode. > > > I think you mean software? > > It is possible to run Windows 7's XP Mode under Windows 8.x -- I've done it. > > http://www.howtogeek.com/171395/how-to-get-windows-xp-mode-on-windows-8/ > > This *might* work on Win10. > The issue is that with 64 bit versions of windows, the 16 bit thunking layer isn't present. The simplest way to do this is to grab VMWare Player (free download) and then create a Win98 VM. Google can point to a number of downloadable, ready-to-run Win98SE VMs. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue May 3 09:28:42 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 10:28:42 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler 40th birthday presents... In-Reply-To: <5728AC9F.5000905@web.de> References: <16ef01d1a4e0$5f39ad20$1dad0760$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <5728AC9F.5000905@web.de> Message-ID: <177301d1a548$18b15c00$4a141400$@sudbrink@verizon.net> fritz_chwolka at web.de wrote: > Look at : > http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/manuals/dazzler/index.html Thanks. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 3 09:40:50 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:40:50 -0400 Subject: Fwd: RSTS and slow DECnet operation in SIMH References: Message-ID: For those of you running DECnet/E on simulators... paul > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Paul Koning > Subject: Re: RSTS and slow DECnet operation in SIMH > Date: May 2, 2016 at 1:37:45 PM EDT > To: SIMH > >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> With help from Mark Pizzolato, I've been looking at why RSTS (DECnet/E) operates so slowly when it's dealing with one way transfers. This is independent of protocol and datalink type; it shows up very clearly in NFT (any kind of file transfer or directory listing) and also in NET (Set Host). The symptom is that data comes across in fairly short bursts, separated by about a second of pause. >> >> This turns out to be an interaction between the DECnet/E queueing rules and the very fast operation of SIMH on modern hosts. DECnet/E will queue up to some small number of NSP segments for any given connection, set by the executor parameter "data transmit queue max". The default value is 4 or 5, but it can be set higher, and that helps some. >> >> The trouble is this: if you have a one way data flow, for example NFT or FAL doing a copy, the sending program simply fires off a sequence of send-packet operations until it gets a "queue full" reject from the kernel. At that point it delays, but the delay is one second since sleep operations have one second granularity. The other end acks all that data quite promptly, but since the emulation runs so fast, the whole transmit queue can fill up before the ack from the other end arrives, so the queue full condition occurs, then a one second delay, then the process starts over. >> >> This sort of thing doesn't happen on request/response exchanges; for example the NCP command LOOP NODE runs at top speed because traffic is going both ways. >> >> I tried fiddling with the data queue limit to see if increasing it would help. It seems to, but it's not sufficient. What does work is a larger queue limit (32 looks good) combined with CPU throttling to slow things down a bit. I used "set throttle 2000/1" (which produces a 1 ms delay every 2000 instructions, i.e., roughly 2 MIPS processing speed which is at the high end of what real PDP-11s can do). Those two changes combined make file transfer run smoothly and fast. >> >> Ideally DECnet/E should cancel the program sleep when the queue transitions from full to not-full, but that's not part of the existing logic (at least not unless the program explicitly asks for "link status notifications"). I could probably add that; the question is how large a change it is -- does it exceed what's feasible for a patch. I may still do that, but at least for now the above should be helpful. > > Followup: I created a patch that implements the "wake up when the queue goes not-full". Or more precisely, it wakes up the process whenever an ack is received; that covers the probem case and probably doesn't create many other wakeups since the program is unlikely to be sleeping otherwise. > > The attached patch script does the job. This is for RSTS V10.1. I will take a look at RSTS 9.6; the patch is unlikely to apply there (offsets probably don't match) but the concept will apply there too. I don't have other DECnet/E versions, let alone source listings which is what's needed to create the patch. > > With this patch, you can run at full emulation speed, with the default queue limit (5). In fact, I would recommend setting that limit; if you make the queue limit significantly larger, the patch doesn't help and things are still slow. I suspect that comes from overrunning the queue limits at the receiving end. (Note that DECnet/E leaves the flow control choice to the application, and most use "no" flow control, i.e., on/off only which isn't effective if the sender can overrun the buffer pool of the receiver.) > > To apply the patch, give it to ONLPAT and select the monitor SIL (just will give you the installed one). Or you can do it with the PATCH option at boot time, in that case enter the information manually. The manual will spell this out some more, I expect. > > I have no idea if this issue can appear on real PDP-11 systems. Possibly, if you have a fast CPU, a fast network (Ethernet) and enough latency to make the issue visible (more than a few milliseconds but way under a second). In any case, it's unlikely to hurt, and it clearly helps a great deal in emulated systems. > > paul > -------------- next part -------------- > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 09:55:07 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 07:55:07 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5728BBCB.4070805@sydex.com> On 05/03/2016 05:57 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 May 2016 at 05:24, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code natively in 64 bit >> mode. > > > I think you mean software? > > It is possible to run Windows 7's XP Mode under Windows 8.x -- I've > done it. I'll retrench and restate that in terms of "it depends". If your CPU doesn't support Hardware Virtualization Mode, you're out of luck: http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/5460/our-look-at-xp-mode-in-windows-7/ You'll note that I did suggest VirtualBox with my initial post. I've run a variety of "antique" systems under it (under Linux), including Microsoft Unix (the SysVR4 variant). That it works has saved me a lot of trouble over the years. I don't know how long we'll have any sort of native capability to run 16-bit code without emulation, however. Of course, anything can be run (more slowly) under emulation or on-the-fly conversion. You'll perhaps recall when, a couple of years ago, the Debian kernel release disabled 16-bit segment descriptors, citing it as a security issue, causing a minor kerfuffle. Linus quickly admitted that it was a mistake--so score one for the oldsters. --Chuck From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Tue May 3 10:12:39 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:12:39 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: Hey everyone, First I want to say thanks to everyone for ideas. I've lobbed the question of whether anything really needs to be done back at the company in question. It's possible that we can limp along or we don't need to do anything. What generated this particular inquiry is that I am putting together a Windows Server 2012 Remote Desktop Services server. This server will be in part a daily driver for some important applications for the company. This RDS server will also allow us to continue company operations in the event of a disaster. We have primary on site back ups and replications to a remote site in which the bare metal backups can be pressed into service as virtual machines should the need arise such as in the case of a local disaster, prolonged power or network outage, and more. Windows Server 2012 is 64-bit only. To my knowledge there is no way to run 16 bit applications aside from virtually. Furthermore I have determined definitively that this particular application was compiled in 16-bit only. I searched for the source code yesterday and I was not able to find it. Granted I haven't been with the firm since the 1990s so I really only have a bare understanding of where I could possibly go look. This particular company has a lot of legacy equipment sitting in a high-rise in Houston, Texas. There are a lot of Compaq machines among many other types of devices, tapes, drives and more hanging around. It is certainly possible that anyone of those storage media contains the source code, but I have no idea whether any of that stuff is even readable or where to start looking. The credits screen of the software shows an older oil company that, I believe, no longer exists. However some of the employees of that particular company are still around and are affiliated with the organization that I am working with. It's unlikely but possible that somebody remembers this particular bit of software. It's also unlikely but possible that the original author is among those people. If I can find the source code, I will do my best to get it upgraded to at least Visual Basic 6 so we can run in 32 bit mode. Since I have no idea where the source code is I really don't have a lot of hope for this. In all likelihood I will attempt to either build a Windows XP virtual machine or perhaps a windows 98 virtual machine. This presents a few administrative challenges but it may be possible. But at the moment the question may be moot. The company may come back and say forget it. I sort of hope they do. I respectfully request that if there are any follow-ups to this particular message that they be sent to me privately. As I said in the original post I think that this skirts the boundaries of off-topic. I now believe that the topic is off-topic. I don't think this list needs to be cluttered up further with anymore of this discussion. Thank you all again for some really great ideas and tips. Cheers, Mike Whalen From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 3 10:24:37 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:24:37 -0400 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: Mike, Have you tried running virtual 2000 professional, running a Win 3.1 16-bit emulator ("or some form of Win 3.1 emulator within a virtual machine bridge")? From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Tue May 3 10:42:44 2016 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 08:42:44 -0700 Subject: Trying to repair a Smith-Corona letter quality "printer" Message-ID: I picked up a Smith-Corona Memory Correct 400 Messenger typewriter at Goodwill last week. It has the daisy wheel but no ribbon. I debated getting it since I already have enough retro stuff around the house, but every single time I?m at a Goodwill I look at all the typewriters to see if they have some kind of serial or parallel port. This one has a DE9 connector on the back which can be connected to a computer using an external box called a Messenger Module, which I also have. I plugged it in at the store and the typewriter didn't power up. They gave me 10 bucks off so I couldn?t resist and bought it. I?m hoping it?s an easy fix, but I can?t figure out how to get the thing apart at all! The four screws in the bottom just hold the plastic case to the metal frame, and removing them didn?t allow the case to come apart. I can?t figure out how to get the two plastic halves separated. There's no screws in the top and no other screws in the bottom. The plastic halves aren't welded together around the outside, I can wedge a screwdriver between them all the way around. There seems to be something holding the halves together near the four corners. Does anyone have any idea of how to get this thing open (without breaking the plastic)? I?ve searched all over the internet but I can?t find any scanned service manuals. The typewriter is from 1984 and was sold for $600 new so it doesn't seem to me like it would be a "disposable" item so there has to be a way to open it and service it. From what I can tell the 200/300/400 all use the same case, and the Memory Correct II/III use a very similar case, so info for any of those may help. I posted an album here: http://imgur.com/a/SxfTE and a YouTube video here: http://youtu.be/ryDl0Qvl7Gk Any assistance in opening the case without breaking it will be greatly appreciated! :-) -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 10:41:49 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 17:41:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Hi Bob, many thanks for your email and for sharing the photos. Obviously the 1603 has a different processor card set (5604 as can be seen from your photographs). So this is quite interesting as it shows, that the chronology was 1602 (9 PCB processor), 1603 (5604, 4 PCB procrssor), 1602B (5605, 2-PCB sandwich processor). Yours seems to have TTY in slot 13 and there are 5 IO slots (15- 11) as on the original 1602 (1602B has got more due to the re- duced number of PCBs in the CPU). The CPI controlling the panel in your case is at the very end opposite to the power supply and inbetween you have got two core stacks - in total 32kW I think. A 1602B can hold 64kW of memory (only accessible via a banking function proprietary to Rolm, so not usable e.g. for RDOS). Have you ever powered on your 1666 with the 1648 panel? Although the 1666 was quite popular in the US I think the non US customers preferred the MSE14 due to better compatibility with the DG Eclipse series... Very interesting and again many thanks for sharing! Erik. On Sun, 1 May 2016, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > On 4/27/2016 10:12 PM, Erik Baigar wrote: >> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> >>> I have my Rolm 1603 working. No peripherals hooked to it, but you can >>> toggle in stuff from the front panel. >>> http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/rolm1603_f.jpg >> >> Very cool, Bob - we have been in touch seom years ago and >> great, that your machine is still alive! Many thanks for the >> picture and two questions out of curiosity: >> >> (1) The panel is mounted on the rear side (where memory is) of >> the processor. Is it wired and powered internally or do >> you have to connect the panel to the plugs of the >> processor externally? >> (2) The 1603 uses the same 5605 processor "sandwich" also >> used by the 1602B and not the 9PCBs of the earlier 1602s? >> >> Keep up taking care of your Rolm, its a very nice and rare >> machine... >> >> Erik > Yes, the panel is mounted near the memory and plugs into the bus. > > I think it's the 5605 processor, four CPU boards + some I/O. > > More photos of it can be found here: > > http://www.dvq.com/rolm/ > > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 3 10:56:59 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 09:56:59 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment Message-ID: Back in the early 90's I remember that many times I'd see a print advertisement for a Video Toaster or a new genlock card, they'd say things like "features you'd have to pay thousands for in a professional paintbox or titler!" I always wondered what they were talking about, since I'd never seen how broadcast was done back then (and still don't know). So, I'm really talking about the tech of the 80's (since that's what the marketing folks were referring to, I assume). Here's what I could find that I'm speculating were the "competition" of the time: The Quantel Paintbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantel_Paintbox Superpaint running on a DG Nova 800 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superpaint The Bosch FGS 4000 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oyGaEu7D7s These are about the only ones I could find. Does anyone know of any others? Also, here are my favorite paint and 2D animation programs of yore. If you guys have others that you loved and remember, what were they? DOS 1. Deluxe Paint II Enhanced 2. PC Paintbrush 3. Autodesk Animator 4. Paul Mace's GRASP 5. Deluxe Paint Animation Amiga 1. Photogenics 2. Photon Paint 3. TVPaint 4. Brilliance 5. Disney Animation Studio Sorry, I didn't use the Mac enough to form any favorites, though I did love Fractal Design Painter (now Corel Painter). -Swift From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 10:45:48 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 17:45:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, thanks for the additional explanations. > in the hardware lab, 99.999% of ARTS/32 (and all of the Marvin) > development took place on commercial DG hardware -- MV/8000s for > ARTS/32, MV/10000s for Marvin (with MV/4000s used as target machines). OK, that is helpful information - Stephen Merrony in the UK is taking care of the MV series hardware/software/documentation and he has some manuals on his page which enlightened me regarding MV/Hawk32 instructions and usage: http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk/dg/doku.php > It's funny that you mention the MSE14; it was the other punch done by > ROLM, basically a S140 stuffed into a 1/2 ATR chassis. What I have got is even smaller - called MSE14/Micro, it is 1/4 ATR with a CPU on only two cards thightly packed together back-to-back to ensure short connections and each full with discrete chips (AMD ALU, sequencer, 32kW RAM and memory map; photographs show both sides of the heavy CPU sandwich) - http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/MSE14-CPU-Arithmetics-Memory.jpg http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/MSE14-CPU-Microcode-Integer.jpg it even has got a hardware multiplier doing 16*16->32 in one processor cycle - so quite fast for those days. With the >20MHz, these are running at, I can imagine that the "full size" MSE14 may have had timing problems with the CPU distributed to several cards (and many plugs for the signals have to pass). > "Eagle" was DG's name for the MV architecture; ROLM's "Hawk" was a play > on "Eagle" ;) Indeed - ;-) > which explains why we're > only now in the process of changing out the 1970's 370-derived computers > in the E-3. Hmm, I am not sure if this is a positive development. Special care has to be taken to make the software robust and independent of access to the internet. One does not want to run into trouble with viruses etc. in such a context ;-) > In the case of the Hawk this was known > internally as the "one second architectural verification", but running > on the simulator it took approximately forever to finish, Very funny - and understandable. Even in case of the MSE14 this BITE implemtend in microcode takes several seconds and it is easy to understand that it must have required a looooong time in the 1990ties if simulated. > EventDetect (tm, no less) was basically a > PN diode that would conduct in the presence of radiation events and > non-destructively crowbar the power supply, after which the machine > would execute a normal power-fail auto-restart (the joys of core). Hmm - here I am not sure. I just discovered, that I am proud owner of PCBs called "Event Detect" with part number 7100A - so they really existed, at least if mine are the right ones; They are IO boards and therefore I doubt they short the power supply. At some time in the future I will have a closer look to see what is on them. [snip] > > (Access Protection Module or Mode or whatever (?)). This option is > > not listed in the standard IO options and to my knowledge is a very > > early form (dated before 1974) of such a feature ;-) > > Way before my time. I assiduously avoided all contact with the 16XX > stuff, ;-) I think it is worth starting a separate thread here on the question which early systems had a facility for memory and IO protection facility. I still think, that 1975 is quite early for a Minicomputer architecture. > Toshiba America Electronic Components. We did the MIPS-derived core in > the CPU2 chip of the Sony PS/2 -- the so-called "Emotion Engine". From all your comments I am quite sure, that you had a very interesting business life so far - congratulations! Many thanks again and best regards, Erik. On Sun, 1 May 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > > On 5/1/16 04:10, Erik Baigar wrote: > >> sorry, but there emerged more questions from my side ;-) > > It's a trip down memory lane ;) > >> >> On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: >> >>> Hawk, but not the odd S/140 and MV/8000 punches) and software (ARTS, >>> ARTS/32) were ROLM designs. >> >> I only know ARTS from ads being sold on eBay - this is some >> form od Ada development environment (or a complete OS?)? The >> acronym probably means something like "Ada Real Time System" (?). > > Advanced Real Time System. Memory resident with hard latency limits for > servicing interrupts; it had nothing to do with the Ada compiler. > >> >> Was this a cross compiler tool or did it run natively on the >> hardware? As there is a /32 variant, do you think a variant >> for the 16 bit machines like 16xx or MSE14 did survive some- >> where? > > ARTS/32 was for Eagle architecture machines and actually made use of the > rings :P. Prior to the Hawk there was a punch (basically a > militarization of DG's prints) of the MV/8000 of which something like > three were sold; it was about the size of a large modern refrigerator > and was sufficiently massive that it had large lifting rings on the top > of the cabinet; while sometime someone would fire up the one that lurked > in the hardware lab, 99.999% of ARTS/32 (and all of the Marvin) > development took place on commercial DG hardware -- MV/8000s for > ARTS/32, MV/10000s for Marvin (with MV/4000s used as target machines). > > I have no idea if any of the software survived anywhere :( > > It's funny that you mention the MSE14; it was the other punch done by > ROLM, basically a S140 stuffed into a 1/2 ATR chassis. IIRC it had a > somewhat painful gestation, because mapping the 15x15" S/140 processor > onto multiple smaller cards created interesting timing problems. > > The ADA compiler was developed in partnership with Rational; as part of > that deal ROLM was supposed to look at creating a militarized version of > the R1000. The R1000 was freaking huge -- much taller than a MV/8000, > to the point that getting it into the machine room was a bit of a > challenge -- and it turned out it was markedly slower executing Ada code > than a MV/8000 running code produced by the ROLM compiler, so in the end > that project went more or less nowhere. > > >> >>> Steve Wallach had incorporated into the PTE format for the Eagle in >>> order to turn memory references into I/O requests that would be >>> transparently resolved in the physical memory of another machine. >> >> Although I do not recognize the "PTE format", I guess the Eagle >> project is related to a widely sold US made aircraft, right? This >> one carried at least one Hawk/32 ;-) > > PTE ::= Page Table Entry. > > "Eagle" was DG's name for the MV architecture; ROLM's "Hawk" was a play > on "Eagle" ;) > >> >> Some of the Rolm stuff I have got is from the company which serviced >> the equipment of the ATTAS aircraft... >> >> http://www.dlr.de/dlr/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10644#gallery/1751 >> >> http://www.dlr.de/dlr/Portaldata/1/Resources/documents/ATTAS_Handout_2001.pdf > > Huh. Interesting :) > >>> deal from each other ("Yes, I know that the PATU instruction only occurs >>> twice in the body of AOS/VS, but it's executed on every context switch >>> and as such it's probably not a really good idea to implement it by >>> having the microcode scrub each entry in the TLB"). >> >> I guess you have not been happy with context switching and how >> the Rolm microcode implemented it. > > IIRC we caught the problem early enough that they were able to come up > with a hardware invalidation that did materially what the MV's did and > thus we didn't end up paying a terrible performance penalty on context > switching. > > >> Unfortunately, there is nothing >> on the internet related to the instruction set of the Hawk/32 >> family but the hardware contained lot of big custom chips and >> therefor I guess it was far more powerful and complex than >> e.g. the Eclipse or earlier machines. > > It's instruction set is identical to the MV/8000, but there's some > differences in how it treats "undefined" results and "undefined" > bitfields in a handful of instructions, enough to require tweaking the > diagnostics. > > > -- > Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. > chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 > http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" > From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 10:52:33 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 17:52:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? Message-ID: Dear Experts, during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be set up individually. - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the memory and IO ranges must exist. I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising the IO- and memory accesses. My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g. for safety critical applications... Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era having someting similar? Erik. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 3 11:17:09 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:17:09 -0400 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> > On May 3, 2016, at 11:52 AM, Erik Baigar wrote: > > > Dear Experts, > > during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: > What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered > memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: > > - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) > - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) > - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be > set up individually. > - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. > - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the > memory and IO ranges must exist. > ... > Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to > support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some > Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. No, the PDP-11 offered this starting with the 11/45, in 1971. In larger computers the feature is much older. Consider the CDC 6600 (1964). While not all the properties you mentioned apply because I/O is in separate peripheral processors, the notion of a privileged mode and address mapping is there. And even that isn't the oldest example, I think. paul From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Tue May 3 11:37:57 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:37:57 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: Bill, Is ?Virtual 2000 Professional? a product? Or is that Virtual PC with a VM of Windows 2000 Professional running? From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 3 11:54:00 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:54:00 -0400 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: May be a crazy idea but worth a try. First set up Win 2000 professional and find a Win 3.1 emulator that works within it. Once that's solid and running on Win 2000 box transplant the physical Win 2000 server to virtual. There are Win 2000 containers in VMWare and VCloud Director type utilities that can be used, or you can do it at the command prompt. I used this technique to set up an XP box into a cloud server that was running VMWare where you were allowed to spin up boxes. On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Mike Whalen wrote: > Bill, > > Is ?Virtual 2000 Professional? a product? Or is that Virtual PC with a VM > of Windows 2000 Professional running? > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From radiotest at juno.com Tue May 3 11:59:34 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 12:59:34 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> At 11:56 AM 5/3/2016, Swift Griggs wrote: >The Quantel Paintbox: > >Superpaint running on a DG Nova 800 > >The Bosch FGS 4000 Add to those the Avid/1 non-linear editor from Avid Technology, introduced in 1989, which ran on a Mac II using some specialized hardware. It rapidly became the leading video editing system for television and film (which, of course, had to be digitized). It eventually displaced almost all celluloid cutting. After NT4 was introduced Avid introduced Avid Studio for that OS, the first Windows OS that Avid considered stable enough for one of its edit suites. AFAIK everything before that was for Mac. They also built video playout systems for TV master control rooms that were Mac based. Perhaps Avid's best known product is Pro Tools, which they acquired when they bought Digidesign in 1994. The small TV station that I worked for used Video Toaster before we bought Avid Studio. The latter made a huge difference in editing ability, FX range and quality, and rendering time. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer (and former TV Engineer), Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 3 12:04:50 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: Wouldn't it be easier to run the code on a machine from the relevant time period? XP32 laptops are fairly readily available, and don't take much storage space. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 3 12:11:09 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:11:09 -0700 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6cd7c482-5cc7-1ce3-d27b-e01382eb6b04@bitsavers.org> On 5/3/16 8:56 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Superpaint running on a DG Nova 800 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superpaint > Superpaint was an experimental system at Xerox PARC Quantel paintboxes were some of the earliest commercial systems. Dig around in the SIGGRAPH proceedings in the 70s for others. The technology advanced rapidly once semiconductor memory systems were dense enough to have color frame stores that weren't astronomically expensive. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 3 12:13:29 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 18:13:29 +0100 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000801d1a55f$1db6a400$5923ec00$@gmail.com> You don't need a Win3.1 emulator for Windows/2000 or Windows/XP, they are 32-bit only OS's and will run 3.1 programs out of the box. Dave G4UGM (Notes there are a couple of offerings called XP 64-bit but they are actually modified versions of Server 2003 which is a different code base to XP). > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan > Sent: 03 May 2016 17:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? > > May be a crazy idea but worth a try. > > First set up Win 2000 professional and find a Win 3.1 emulator that works > within it. Once that's solid and running on Win 2000 box transplant the physical > Win 2000 server to virtual. There are Win 2000 containers in VMWare and > VCloud Director type utilities that can be used, or you can do it at the command > prompt. I used this technique to set up an XP box into a cloud server that was > running VMWare where you were allowed to spin up boxes. > > On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Mike Whalen > > wrote: > > > Bill, > > > > Is ?Virtual 2000 Professional? a product? Or is that Virtual PC with a > > VM of Windows 2000 Professional running? > > > > > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue May 3 12:14:47 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 13:14:47 -0400 Subject: Cleaning rubber goo References: Message-ID: What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? m From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 3 12:14:54 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:14:54 -0700 Subject: Cleaning rubber goo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58f46830-5bfe-26d2-966a-53631af21fae@bitsavers.org> something naptha/citrus based, like goo gone? On 5/3/16 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? > > m > From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Tue May 3 12:16:15 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:16:15 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: Something I didn?t say explicitly that has caused some confusion is the following: We are an ESX 5.5 environment. None of our servers are physical, save for the ESX server. Also, when I said ?bare-metal? earlier, what I really meant was that the remote site runs ESX and will bring up our VMs. The specific software/tech we?re using for backups is Dell AppAssure with replication and virtual machine exports. So, when I say that I may need to spool up a VM to run this software, I really mean another VM inside ESX. Or I may put Virtual Box w/ XP or Windows 98 on the 2012 VM. Or something similar. Ultimately it?s going to depend on how much they need this program. It may be simpler and neater for them to transfer the data to something else. I forget who it was, but someone suggested hex editing the executable. I don?t know about doing that exactly, but I did finally resolve a question that has been lingering in my mind for quite some time? The location of the databases the program accesses is hard-coded in the executable. Wheee! :-) From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 3 12:22:05 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:22:05 -0600 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:54 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On May 2, 2016 9:48 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: >> >> I hadn't heard of it being used in Tektronix oscilloscopes, but I'm >> not surprised. They also used it in the DAS9120 series logic >> analyzers, with the DAS9129 mainframe being the color display versions >> of the more common DAS9100, and in the later 1241 logic analyzer. As >> with the HP 1338A, the colors are red, green, and yellow. > > I thought the 1241 used a conventional CRT with a Liquid Crystal Color > Shutter in front of it. I think you're right. I remembered that the 1241 had an unusual display, but forgot the details. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 12:34:27 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:34:27 -0700 Subject: Cleaning rubber goo In-Reply-To: <58f46830-5bfe-26d2-966a-53631af21fae@bitsavers.org> References: <58f46830-5bfe-26d2-966a-53631af21fae@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5728E123.5050303@sydex.com> On 05/03/2016 10:14 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > something naptha/citrus based, like goo gone? > > On 5/3/16 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >> What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber >> goo that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? I start with detergent and water, which allows me to get much of the goo off without smearing it all over the place. Then paint thinner liberally mixed with cursing. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue May 3 12:34:19 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 13:34:19 -0400 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6308d7ff-0403-4690-fcad-d7735273395a@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-03 12:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On May 3, 2016, at 11:52 AM, Erik Baigar wrote: >> >> >> Dear Experts, >> >> during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: >> What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered >> memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: >> >> - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) >> - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) >> - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be >> set up individually. >> - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. >> - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the >> memory and IO ranges must exist. >> ... >> Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to >> support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some >> Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. > > No, the PDP-11 offered this starting with the 11/45, in 1971. > > In larger computers the feature is much older. Consider the CDC 6600 (1964). While not all the properties you mentioned apply because I/O is in separate peripheral processors, the notion of a privileged mode and address mapping is there. And even that isn't the oldest example, I think. Professor Per Brinch Hansen's 2001 book, "Classic Operating Systems": [the Atlas computer at Manchester University in the early 1960s] was the first system to exploit _supervisor calls_ known as "extracodes": Extracode routines form simple extensions of the basic order code, and also provide specific entry to supervisor routines. ... The Atlas supervisor has been called "the first recognisable modern operating system" (Lavington 1980). The book reprints the 1961 paper, "The Atlas Supervisor," Tom Kilburn, R. Bruce Payne and David J. Howarth: The fixed store contains about 250 subroutines which can be called in from an object program by single instructions called extracodes. When these routines are being obeyed, extracode control is used: extracode control is also used by the supervisor, which requires access to the "private" stores. ... The supervisor program controls all those functions of the system that are not obtained merely by allowing the central computer to proceed with obeying an object program. ... Supervisor extracode routines (S.E.R.'s) form the principal "branches" of the supervisor program. ... They are protected from interference by object programs by using subsidiary store as working space, together with areas of core and drum store which are locked out in the usual way whilst an object program is being executed ... The S.E.R.'s thus apply mutual protection between themselves and an object program. Great book, that repeatedly shows how many ideas we think of as "modern" are actually quite old. :) --Toby > > paul > > > From macro at linux-mips.org Tue May 3 12:39:49 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 18:39:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cleaning rubber goo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Mike Stein wrote: > What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo > that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? FWIW I've used IPA with reasonable results; as recently as last weekend last time. It doesn't seem to affect intact rubber, at least not readily, and it's quite gentle to various plastics -- it does remove the sticky remains though. I take it as an advantage actually. Maciej From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 3 12:41:54 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 13:41:54 -0400 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: ESX 5 is good. I have migrated 32-bit XP to a ESX 5. The reason I was suggesting 2000 professional because it's more likely you'll find a good Win 3.1 emulator that is native there, once you have a physical box working you can snapshot the physical box into a virtual image. Maybe it will work on XP, if so, even easier. From tlindner at macmess.org Tue May 3 12:44:20 2016 From: tlindner at macmess.org (tim lindner) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:44:20 -0700 Subject: Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo) Message-ID: On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that used to be pressure > rollers, belts, feet etc.? On a similar note, does any have a solution to firm up rubber that is just starting to gooify? I have some joystick feet that are just starting to get sticky. -- -- tim lindner "Proper User Policy apparently means Simon Says." From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 3 12:45:40 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 13:45:40 -0400 Subject: Cleaning rubber goo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 3, 2016, at 1:14 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? That depends on what the substrate is. If possible, I use lacquer thinner, which is a very powerful solvent. For example, it removes label adhesive or rubber cement faster than anything else I've tried. But if the substrate is some kind of plastic, it probably objects to this, so something less potent (and less effective) is needed. A label chemist told me that label adhesive residue can be removed, slowly but safely, with WD-40. I haven't tried that on former rubber, but it might serve for that as well. The key point is that most plastics don't mind WD-40. If it matters a lot, test the proposed solvent first on an inconspicuous/noncritical part of the substrate. Sometimes you get surprised. For example, ethanol is safe for nearly all plastics, but it badly messes up clear acrylic ("plexiglas"). paul From ethan at 757.org Tue May 3 12:52:03 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 13:52:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> Message-ID: > Add to those the Avid/1 non-linear editor from Avid Technology, > introduced in 1989, which ran on a Mac II using some specialized > hardware. It rapidly became the leading video editing system for > television and film (which, of course, had to be digitized). It > eventually displaced almost all celluloid cutting. The early Avid systems just commanded the VTR's over RS-422 to go to time points then punch in, correct? It was non-linear but the video wasn't digitized or stored on disk? -- Ethan O'Toole From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 3 13:05:10 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:05:10 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > The early Avid systems just commanded the VTR's over RS-422 to go to > time points then punch in, correct? It was non-linear but the video > wasn't digitized or stored on disk? That's what I remember, too, but I could be wrong. I also seem to remember that the Toaster had something that came along later called the "Toaster Flyer" card that would allow you to digitize video and work with it digitally, but I never used one. I was too poor. All I could afford in those days were tiny frame grabbers for the Amiga. -Swift From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 12:55:34 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 19:55:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > > No, the PDP-11 offered this starting with the 11/45, in 1971. OK, that is a hint - the 11/45 also had a MMU and obviosly must have been a great machine for multi-user stuff. > In larger computers the feature is much older. Consider the CDC 6600 > (1964). While not all the properties you mentioned apply because I/O is > in separate peripheral processors, the notion of a privileged mode and > address mapping is there. And even that isn't the oldest example, I I have been aware, that bigger machines offered this already and therefore I explicitly asked for "Minis"... But yes, the CDCs are very impressive machines!!! Thanks for your reply, Erik. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue May 3 13:11:01 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:11:01 -0400 Subject: Cleaning rubber goo References: Message-ID: I've tried Goo Gone and IPA (among others) but neither seemed very effective; maybe I'm just expecting too much and elbow grease is the answer. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 1:39 PM Subject: Re: Cleaning rubber goo > On Tue, 3 May 2016, Mike Stein wrote: > >> What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo >> that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? > > FWIW I've used IPA with reasonable results; as recently as last weekend > last time. It doesn't seem to affect intact rubber, at least not readily, > and it's quite gentle to various plastics -- it does remove the sticky > remains though. I take it as an advantage actually. > > Maciej From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 12:58:59 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 19:58:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <6308d7ff-0403-4690-fcad-d7735273395a@telegraphics.com.au> References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> <6308d7ff-0403-4690-fcad-d7735273395a@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Toby Thain wrote: [snip] > Great book, that repeatedly shows how many ideas we think of as "modern" are > actually quite old. :) Yes, that are very wise words ;-) Erik. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 13:14:18 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:14:18 -0700 Subject: Cleaning rubber goo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5728EA7A.2030607@sydex.com> I've been wondering if methyl salicylate (oil of wintergreen) would do a decent job. Usually, it's used to restore plasticity to dried-out rubber (one common treatment for hard typewriter platens is "Rubber Renu", which is MS in a solution of xylol). Nice fresh minty smell. Good for your arthritis. I haven't tried it yet as a goo solvent. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 3 13:15:56 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:15:56 -0400 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On May 3, 2016, at 1:55 PM, Erik Baigar wrote: > > > On Tue, 3 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> No, the PDP-11 offered this starting with the 11/45, in 1971. > > OK, that is a hint - the 11/45 also had a MMU and obviosly must > have been a great machine for multi-user stuff. Keep in mind that mapping and protection are not required to build a multi-user system. DEC did timesharing on the PDP-11/20 (RSTS-11) and on the PDP-8 without either. And multiprogramming goes back much further, at least as far as the THE operating system in 1964, on the EL-X8. That OS is particularly interesting because it has virtual memory and demand paging without any hardware help, without address mapping or protection. In all these cases, you need help from the compilers to keep things safe. Burroughs mainframes do the same sort of thing, though that's not so obvious: the OS security is dependent on the fact that ordinary users can't write and execute ESPOL programs. paul From radiotest at juno.com Tue May 3 13:13:04 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 14:13:04 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503140412.03e6a4a8@juno.com> At 01:52 PM 5/3/2016, Ethan O'Toole wrote: >The early Avid systems just commanded the VTR's over RS-422 to go to time points then punch in, correct? It was non-linear but the video wasn't digitized or stored on disk? I don't know - the earliest Avid products I worked with were from the late 1980s and early 1990s and used digitized video with the largest hard drive and biggest RAM that I had worked with up to that point. The MCR video playout system that I worked with stored all the short-form video in a bank of SCSI drives, and we ran all of the long-form manually from a bank of U-matic decks or directly from sat - all of the switching done with a Grass Valley switcher run by the Avid. We did all of the long-form preroll with a built-in preroll cueing function in the U-matics, and rolled them by hand, IIRC correctly (that was about 20 years ago). Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From radiotest at juno.com Tue May 3 13:17:09 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 14:17:09 -0400 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <6308d7ff-0403-4690-fcad-d7735273395a@telegraphics.com.au> References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> <6308d7ff-0403-4690-fcad-d7735273395a@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141508.03dd5418@juno.com> At 01:34 PM 5/3/2016, Toby Thain wrote: >Great book, that repeatedly shows how many ideas we think of as "modern" are actually quite old. :) An example - the first dynamically refreshed capacitive memory system of which I am aware dated from 1939. It was not RAM, as it was a rotating drum. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From radiotest at juno.com Tue May 3 13:14:15 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 14:14:15 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> At 02:05 PM 5/3/2016, Swift Griggs wrote: >I also seem to remember that the Toaster had something that came along later called the "Toaster Flyer" card that would allow you to digitize video and work with it digitally, but I never used one Our Toaster had a Flyer. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 3 13:22:58 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:22:58 -0700 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4eea21a7-29e6-461a-1c2a-ab61681290ab@bitsavers.org> On 5/3/16 11:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Keep in mind that mapping and protection are not required to build a multi-user system. DEC did timesharing on the PDP-11/20 (RSTS-11) and on the PDP-8 without either. The SDS-940 is an early small-ish timsharing system that had base-bounds memory protection, circa mid-60s It was the platform that a lot of early timesharing services used. TSS/8 used 4K segmentation with protection (memory expansion/timeshare control option) The early BASIC minicomputer timesharing systems (line 2000TSB) had virtual BASIC machines for each user that swapped. From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 13:18:15 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:18:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > further, at least as far as the THE operating system in 1964, on the > EL-X8. That OS is particularly interesting because it has virtual > memory and demand paging without any hardware help, without address > mapping or protection. Wow - and this machine still used a drum for secondary storage; quite outstanding, you are right! Erik. From chris at mainecoon.com Tue May 3 13:35:48 2016 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:35:48 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 5/3/16 08:41, Erik Baigar wrote: [snip] > Yours seems to have TTY in slot 13 and there are 5 IO slots (15- > 11) as on the original 1602 (1602B has got more due to the re- > duced number of PCBs in the CPU). The CPI controlling the panel in > your case is at the very end opposite to the power supply and > inbetween you have got two core stacks - in total 32kW I think. > A 1602B can hold 64kW of memory (only accessible via a banking > function proprietary to Rolm, so not usable e.g. for RDOS). I thought the 16xx did it the same way Keronix and DCC did it -- by limiting indirection to one level and then using the high order bit for address rather than indicating indirection? > Have you ever powered on your 1666 with the 1648 panel? Although > the 1666 was quite popular in the US I think the non US customers > preferred the MSE14 due to better compatibility with the DG Eclipse > series... IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something nomenclature). Cheers, Chris -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 13:23:46 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:23:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <4eea21a7-29e6-461a-1c2a-ab61681290ab@bitsavers.org> References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> <4eea21a7-29e6-461a-1c2a-ab61681290ab@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > The early BASIC minicomputer timesharing systems (line 2000TSB) had > virtual BASIC machines for each user that swapped. Well, but is this not an software abstraction for a non existing encapsulation feature of the underlying hardware? DGs Extended BASIC also implemented time sharing without the hardware offering this feature and probably many other examples exist (Even if you beat me: Early Windows?)... If the language does not offer any critical commands, this works as well as users can not do nasty things. From macro at linux-mips.org Tue May 3 12:20:34 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 18:20:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I decided to attempt the construction of an adapter. But it is the > connectors which always bite me because I don't know what all the types of > connector are. I naively assumed that an IDC 10-way (2x5) would do the > trick, but it is too wide to go into the male connector on the board. > > What kinds of connectors exist for ribbon cables that can be used to go into > a 2x5 connector, but which don't have a lot of space at the sides? I think this header is intended for a crimp wire receptacle, like: . This is non-polarised though; getting one that is polarised and with the right key might be a bit of a challenge. Alternatively a PCB socket like: would do too; again getting a polarised one seems tough. I don't know which of the two solutions the original DEC SROM "dongle" used. I can only find 3 references quoting the part number, which is/was 96-RM001-01. It provided for a standard DECconnect cable, so I think it's actually quite likely that it was just a small daughtercard with a PCB socket, line driver and receiver ICs (DEC documentation quotes 1488 and 1489, but with a pair of wires used for communication that looks like an overkill to me -- a single IC like MAX232N would do IMHO; RS sell them individually even) and their associated passive components, and then an MMJ socket, all on the PCB. Obviously these days you probably want a DE-9 connector instead. ;) I wonder if I shouldn't actually make something like this myself just for fun -- to have a way to peek at my DEC 3000's internals even though it appears healthy overall. Maciej From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 3 13:46:17 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:46:17 -0700 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> <4eea21a7-29e6-461a-1c2a-ab61681290ab@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <174e836e-f44f-1ff8-4373-afcc83d79577@bitsavers.org> On 5/3/16 11:23 AM, Erik Baigar wrote: > Well, but is this not an software abstraction for a non existing > encapsulation feature of the underlying hardware? Yes, or you can design a language with array bounds checking and no arbitrary pointer dereferencing. Burroughs Algol, HP SPL, Xerox Mesa, or their modern reinventions, built on segmented stack architectures. On the microcomputer side, companies built MMUs for microcomputers that had bank switching and protection. Digital Research MPM, for example. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 3 13:51:15 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:51:15 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Dale H. Cook wrote: > >I also seem to remember that the Toaster had something that came along > >later called the "Toaster Flyer" card that would allow you to digitize > >video and work with it digitally, but I never used one > Our Toaster had a Flyer. Was I right? Did that thing actually digitize video? Once you had it could you use it as a source for A/B rolls and the like that the regular Toaster functions covered? I didn't realize the Avid stuff was as popular and well-used as you guys are saying. Back in the day, I was under the impression that Avid equipment was just for hobbyists, but it seems not. Sounds like it was well used in professional broadcast apps, also. What about titlers? I'm under the impression that, until the mid-90's or so, titlers were totally dedicated bits of hardware. Then came a lot of packages for the PC and Amiga to do it in software and overlay it with a genlock. I also remember that switchers and time base correctors were needed for video back in the day. I understand the concept of a switcher (easy) but a TBC? Was that because you had to have video timings exactly matching before you could successfully show bits from both at the same time (ie.. in an A/B roll) or was it for a completely different purpose ? -Swift From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 14:05:36 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:05:36 -0700 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <174e836e-f44f-1ff8-4373-afcc83d79577@bitsavers.org> References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> <4eea21a7-29e6-461a-1c2a-ab61681290ab@bitsavers.org> <174e836e-f44f-1ff8-4373-afcc83d79577@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5728F680.6040406@sydex.com> Again, not minicomputer, but the Burroughs B5000 did have "invalid address" detection, which would case the machine to switch from "normal" to "control" state with an interrupt. The problem with comparing the B5000 architecture to anything else is that it was quite liberally like nothing else. Some may argue that the IBM S/360 had I/O protection, but those of us who played games with CCWs in user mode might take exception to that statement.:) One of the favorite CCW-writing exploits was to ring the 1052 console bell then execute a TIC (transfer in channel) back to the bell-ringing CCW. On one occasion that I'm aware of, this so panicked the operator that he pulled "emergency stop"... Ah, the good old days... --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 3 14:10:19 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 15:10:19 -0400 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <79B9F1C1-BD8C-4D91-9C1B-2F19E4933215@comcast.net> > On May 3, 2016, at 2:18 PM, Erik Baigar wrote: > > > > On Tue, 3 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > >> further, at least as far as the THE operating system in 1964, on the EL-X8. That OS is particularly interesting because it has virtual memory and demand paging without any hardware help, without address mapping or protection. > > Wow - and this machine still used a drum for secondary > storage; quite outstanding, you are right! It's quite a nice system. The internals are fairly extensively documented in Dijkstra's early "EWD" documents (at the U Texas Austin archive), though a fair fraction are in Dutch. Among other interesting aspects is spooling to virtual memory for both input (paper tape) and output (printer, paper tape punch, plotter). And of course the impressive design discipline documented in his famous paper "The structure of the THE operating system". For that matter, the machine is interesting. Not only is this the place where semaphores were invented and first applied, but they aren't just a software concurrency control mechanism. The I/O system uses semaphores, too -- one that counts pending I/O requests, and another that counts completions and ties to the interrupt request. paul From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 3 14:14:24 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 15:14:24 -0400 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something > nomenclature). 1666s are known as AN/UYK-64. Nitpick: the Rolm 1600s are not really avionics machines, although certainly quite a lot were put in aircraft. The military put them on land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**" (and also not so freaking heavy!). -- Will From chris at mainecoon.com Tue May 3 14:20:34 2016 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:20:34 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <35ba382f-2785-86ee-183c-ad320628622b@mainecoon.com> On 5/3/16 12:14, William Donzelli wrote: > Nitpick: the Rolm 1600s are not really avionics machines, although > certainly quite a lot were put in aircraft. The military put them on > land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for > aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**" > (and also not so freaking heavy!). Yes, that was actually a major complaint of the hardware designers; building something that was "reasonably" light for aircraft, could pass the salt spray/corrosive environment tests for surface ships and the large-excursion vibration (aka "depth charge") tests for submarine service was a bitch -- as was coming up with something that could be both EMP-survivable and TEMPEST-worthy. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 15:22:28 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:22:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: >> IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something >> nomenclature). > > 1666s are known as AN/UYK-64. Yes and the 1602 was the AN/UYK-19. > land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for > aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**" > (and also not so freaking heavy!). Just out of curiosity: Is there an explanation, what the other letters Y and K mean? Erik. From ethan at 757.org Tue May 3 15:36:18 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 16:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> Message-ID: > Was I right? Did that thing actually digitize video? Once you had it could > you use it as a source for A/B rolls and the like that the regular > Toaster functions covered? >From what I know the flyer boards had their own scsi bus or something for dedicated video disks? I could be wrong, I worked for an ISP and one of our customers had an Amiga with one and I talked to him briefly about it. > I didn't realize the Avid stuff was as popular and well-used as you guys > are saying. Back in the day, I was under the impression that Avid > equipment was just for hobbyists, but it seems not. Sounds like it was > well used in professional broadcast apps, also. Media 100 was another company that came on the scene later on the Mac side. > What about titlers? I'm under the impression that, until the mid-90's or > so, titlers were totally dedicated bits of hardware. Then came a lot of > packages for the PC and Amiga to do it in software and overlay it with a > genlock. I also remember that switchers and time base correctors were > needed for video back in the day. I understand the concept of a switcher > (easy) but a TBC? Was that because you had to have video timings exactly > matching before you could successfully show bits from both at the same > time (ie.. in an A/B roll) or was it for a completely different purpose ? You got it! Modern stuff sure fixes a lot! -- Ethan O'Toole From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 3 15:37:32 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 16:37:32 -0400 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Google JETDS. It will tell all. -- Will On May 3, 2016 4:35 PM, "Erik Baigar" wrote: > > IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something >>> nomenclature). >>> >> >> 1666s are known as AN/UYK-64. >> > > Yes and the 1602 was the AN/UYK-19. > > land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for >> aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**" >> (and also not so freaking heavy!). >> > > Just out of curiosity: Is there an explanation, what the other > letters Y and K mean? > > Erik. > From radiotest at juno.com Tue May 3 15:28:09 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 16:28:09 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503160804.03edc9b0@juno.com> At 02:51 PM 5/3/2016, Swift Griggs wrote: >Did that thing actually digitize video? Once you had it could you use it as a source for A/B rolls and the like that the regular Toaster functions covered? IIRC it could be used that way, but IIRC it wouldn't store an awful lot of video. >I didn't realize the Avid stuff was as popular and well-used as you guys are saying. ... Sounds like it was well used in professional broadcast apps, also. Avid was initially only professional and very expensive. The fully-loaded Avid/1 Media Composer in 1989 had about 4 gigabytes of SCSI hard drive and 5 megabytes of RAM (in the Mac) and cost nearly $80,000.00. IIRC that configuration could store something like 6 hours of 30 fps video with stereo CD-quality audio. >... but a TBC? Was that because you had to have video timings exactly matching before you could successfully show bits from both at the same time (ie.. in an A/B roll) or was it for a completely different purpose ? A/B roll was one purpose. Another use was that some video sources (such as some sat receivers) were not genlocked to the house standard, so we used TBCs to permit smooth dissolves and switching between sat receivers and in-house sources which were genlocked. We also got some out-of-house video (some church services shot by small churches come to mind) that came in on VHS, and the VHS decks were not genlocked. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 15:29:49 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:29:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <35ba382f-2785-86ee-183c-ad320628622b@mainecoon.com> References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> <35ba382f-2785-86ee-183c-ad320628622b@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > > On 5/3/16 12:14, William Donzelli wrote: [ snip ] >> (and also not so freaking heavy!). Yes, these are extremely heavy - the 1602 with the additional 24kW memory extension can only be transported over larger distances using a barrow. It is not that big, but has a density close to water ;-) It is incredible to see, that there have been over 20 of the Rolm processors and chassis in the aforementioned ATTAS aircraft. And during some trials a F-16 had to carry three additinoal Hawk/32s ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_VISTA > service was a bitch -- as was coming up with something that could be > both EMP-survivable and TEMPEST-worthy. TEMPEST? Not the play from Shakespeare I guess (sorry for stupid questions)... Good night, Erik. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 3 15:58:34 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 16:58:34 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 4:36 PM, wrote: >> Was I right? Did that thing actually digitize video? Once you had it could >> you use it as a source for A/B rolls and the like that the regular >> Toaster functions covered? > > From what I know the flyer boards had their own scsi bus or something for > dedicated video disks? ISTR the Toaster Flyer had 3 SCSI channels, one for A, one for B, and one for the output stream once you were done with doing the layout/compositing, but I wasn't a Toaster user, so I could be wrong too. -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 3 16:01:17 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 17:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) Message-ID: <20160503210117.A8DCF18C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Erik Baigar >> as was coming up with something that could be both EMP-survivable and >> TEMPEST-worthy. > TEMPEST? A set of standards for allowed levels of emissions (in particular, electro-magnetic radiation) from communication/computing gear, intended to prevent listening to the activity of that gear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename) Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 3 16:14:32 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:14:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1319840859.640300.1462310072980.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 02 May 2016 at 22:56 "Maciej W. Rozycki" wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > Other than that maybe it's NVRAM after all. But what could it be then > > that > > > did not show up in your testing? Could it be that the settings and > > > environment variables stored there are protected with a checksum (or a > > > signature) which happened to be correct for the random contents after > > > power was restored and that in turn confused DROM diagnostics? Can you > > > wipe NVRAM with your program, reinstall the DROM chip and see if the > > > error > > > returns? > > > > > > This thought has crossed my mind. However, since I had to change the > > battery > > that backs up the NVRAM in any case, then surely the memory would have > > been > > zeroed? This NVRAM is battery backed, right? The NVRAM does contain > > data, I > > have verified this with my program, so something is repopulating it > > after > > the battery has been changed. I am slightly reluctant to zero the memory > > on > > purpose in case I can no longer boot the machine (I would save the > > contents > > before zeroing of course). > > I don't think you can assume power-cycling NVRAM (which is effectively > what you've done here by putting a new battery) will zero it. It would if > there was some kind of a reset signal asserted at poweron that would set > the flip-flops to a known state. But the KM6264B chip does not appear to > have such a feature, nor an external reset input. So we need to assume > its contents are random after a powerup. Have you ever used Sinclair ZX > Spectrum? It had its video adapter active from powerup and you could > briefly see the random contents of video RAM on the screen. > I did a test last night which failed, but realised I did it wrong. I am away from home again now and will try that test again, plus the suggestions below. Thanks Rob > > > I understand your reluctance. The NVRAM is indeed supposed to be backed > with the same battery the RTC is. There's just a slight chance the > battery circuit is not operating correctly. There's no battery status bit > in the NVRAM, but there is one in the RTC. You should be able to verify > it with: > > >>> d -b pmem:1c0000e00 0d > >>> e -b pmem:1c0000e20 > > this will read BQ4285 RTC chip's register D. If this comes out as 80, > then the battery is giving power to the chip. If this is 00, then there > is no battery power available. Of course a broken PCB trace could make > battery power reach one of the two chips only. > > BTW, does your SRM console have a TEST command? If so, then have you > tried it? Of course it might want to call into DROM and thus fail rather > spectacularly if it's absent, but chances are it might not and you may get > useful output from it. > > Maciej > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 3 16:14:32 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:14:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1319840859.640300.1462310072980.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 02 May 2016 at 22:56 "Maciej W. Rozycki" wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > Other than that maybe it's NVRAM after all. But what could it be then > > that > > > did not show up in your testing? Could it be that the settings and > > > environment variables stored there are protected with a checksum (or a > > > signature) which happened to be correct for the random contents after > > > power was restored and that in turn confused DROM diagnostics? Can you > > > wipe NVRAM with your program, reinstall the DROM chip and see if the > > > error > > > returns? > > > > > > This thought has crossed my mind. However, since I had to change the > > battery > > that backs up the NVRAM in any case, then surely the memory would have > > been > > zeroed? This NVRAM is battery backed, right? The NVRAM does contain > > data, I > > have verified this with my program, so something is repopulating it > > after > > the battery has been changed. I am slightly reluctant to zero the memory > > on > > purpose in case I can no longer boot the machine (I would save the > > contents > > before zeroing of course). > > I don't think you can assume power-cycling NVRAM (which is effectively > what you've done here by putting a new battery) will zero it. It would if > there was some kind of a reset signal asserted at poweron that would set > the flip-flops to a known state. But the KM6264B chip does not appear to > have such a feature, nor an external reset input. So we need to assume > its contents are random after a powerup. Have you ever used Sinclair ZX > Spectrum? It had its video adapter active from powerup and you could > briefly see the random contents of video RAM on the screen. > I did a test last night which failed, but realised I did it wrong. I am away from home again now and will try that test again, plus the suggestions below. Thanks Rob > > > I understand your reluctance. The NVRAM is indeed supposed to be backed > with the same battery the RTC is. There's just a slight chance the > battery circuit is not operating correctly. There's no battery status bit > in the NVRAM, but there is one in the RTC. You should be able to verify > it with: > > >>> d -b pmem:1c0000e00 0d > >>> e -b pmem:1c0000e20 > > this will read BQ4285 RTC chip's register D. If this comes out as 80, > then the battery is giving power to the chip. If this is 00, then there > is no battery power available. Of course a broken PCB trace could make > battery power reach one of the two chips only. > > BTW, does your SRM console have a TEST command? If so, then have you > tried it? Of course it might want to call into DROM and thus fail rather > spectacularly if it's absent, but chances are it might not and you may get > useful output from it. > > Maciej > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 3 16:18:03 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:18:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <990899515.640445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 03 May 2016 at 18:20 "Maciej W. Rozycki" wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > I decided to attempt the construction of an adapter. But it is the > > connectors which always bite me because I don't know what all the types > > of > > connector are. I naively assumed that an IDC 10-way (2x5) would do the > > trick, but it is too wide to go into the male connector on the board. > > > > What kinds of connectors exist for ribbon cables that can be used to go > > into > > a 2x5 connector, but which don't have a lot of space at the sides? > > I think this header is intended for a crimp wire receptacle, like: > . This is > non-polarised though; getting one that is polarised and with the right key > might be a bit of a challenge. Alternatively a PCB socket like: > would do too; again > getting a polarised one seems tough. > The crimp wire one looks like it would work, thanks for the suggestion! > > > I don't know which of the two solutions the original DEC SROM "dongle" > used. I can only find 3 references quoting the part number, which is/was > 96-RM001-01. It provided for a standard DECconnect cable, so I think it's > actually quite likely that it was just a small daughtercard with a PCB > socket, line driver and receiver ICs (DEC documentation quotes 1488 and > 1489, but with a pair of wires used for communication that looks like an > overkill to me -- a single IC like MAX232N would do IMHO; RS sell them > individually even) and their associated passive components, and then an > MMJ socket, all on the PCB. Obviously these days you probably want a DE-9 > connector instead. ;) > I have a MAX232CPE now, just need the connectors and one more 1uF capacitor and I should have all I need. > > > I wonder if I shouldn't actually make something like this myself just for > fun -- to have a way to peek at my DEC 3000's internals even though it > appears healthy overall. > > Maciej > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 3 16:18:03 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:18:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <990899515.640445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 03 May 2016 at 18:20 "Maciej W. Rozycki" wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > I decided to attempt the construction of an adapter. But it is the > > connectors which always bite me because I don't know what all the types > > of > > connector are. I naively assumed that an IDC 10-way (2x5) would do the > > trick, but it is too wide to go into the male connector on the board. > > > > What kinds of connectors exist for ribbon cables that can be used to go > > into > > a 2x5 connector, but which don't have a lot of space at the sides? > > I think this header is intended for a crimp wire receptacle, like: > . This is > non-polarised though; getting one that is polarised and with the right key > might be a bit of a challenge. Alternatively a PCB socket like: > would do too; again > getting a polarised one seems tough. > The crimp wire one looks like it would work, thanks for the suggestion! > > > I don't know which of the two solutions the original DEC SROM "dongle" > used. I can only find 3 references quoting the part number, which is/was > 96-RM001-01. It provided for a standard DECconnect cable, so I think it's > actually quite likely that it was just a small daughtercard with a PCB > socket, line driver and receiver ICs (DEC documentation quotes 1488 and > 1489, but with a pair of wires used for communication that looks like an > overkill to me -- a single IC like MAX232N would do IMHO; RS sell them > individually even) and their associated passive components, and then an > MMJ socket, all on the PCB. Obviously these days you probably want a DE-9 > connector instead. ;) > I have a MAX232CPE now, just need the connectors and one more 1uF capacitor and I should have all I need. > > > I wonder if I shouldn't actually make something like this myself just for > fun -- to have a way to peek at my DEC 3000's internals even though it > appears healthy overall. > > Maciej > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 3 16:19:50 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 15:19:50 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > ISTR the Toaster Flyer had 3 SCSI channels, one for A, one for B, and > one for the output stream once you were done with doing the > layout/compositing, but I wasn't a Toaster user, so I could be wrong > too. Interesting. That makes sense since you'd have a discrete channel for everything you needed for a two-source compositing operation like a roll. I've used my SGI's a lot for simple video editing, but I never got into anything cool like a Toaster or an Avid rig. I know there are a lot of hardware options for doing video on SGI's (internal video, Sirius video, Galileo video, and the dmedia bundle for newer systems). There are applications like Alias Composer, Autodesk Flame, Flint/Effect, Avid Illusion, Jaleo, Matador, Piranha Cinema HD, Adobe Premier, and Shake. However, I haven't been able to get my hands on more than half that stuff because of how expensive it is. Plus, just about all of it was LMF nodelocked. So, you can't even buy a used copy. -Swift From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 3 17:42:40 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 18:42:40 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> Message-ID: <3D08DAC5EA4847F08D9292C27DC53E9E@TeoPC> Radius Videovision was another major player early on for the mac (both Nubus and later PCI versions). There was also semi pro stuff like Supermac DigitalFilm. Targa also made a bunch of cards for overlays on PC and Mac. Avid also had some dead ends like Avid Media Suite Pro for the Mac. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzy94vWUitE <== AVID/1 DEMO -----Original Message----- From: ethan at 757.org Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 4:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment Media 100 was another company that came on the scene later on the Mac side. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From tingox at gmail.com Tue May 3 18:25:54 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 01:25:54 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Update on NDwiki: On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > > We (a few of us, including at least one more member of this list) used > to document everything ND we could figure out on the 'ndwiki.org' > site, but for unknown reasons (to me at least) it started going > offline more and more a couple of years back, and then never came > back. I didn't manage to get archive.org to copy everything before it > went, although I got quite a few pages archived before it went for > good. Without that site there's not much available on the net. Another > reason my work on this stopped. > I've been in contact with the persons responsible for NDwiki. Unfortunately, the Swedish gentleman who ran ndwiki.org got very busy with real life just after his server died, and still hasn't found time to get a new server up. The contingency plan was put in motion; the necessary data was sent to another Swedish gentleman so that he could set up a server and get NDwiki up on that. Bad luck again; he also got too busy with real life. He doesn't expect to be able to get the server up until this fall. :-/ I'm currently investigating if me running the server as a temporary solution (until the Swedes have time to take over) is something they could agree on. There might be hope for NDwiki yet. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue May 3 18:30:59 2016 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 01:30:59 +0200 Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email... In-Reply-To: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> References: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> Message-ID: <20160503233059.GA30644@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 03:32:21AM -0400, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > fido news when he became editor and they are lamenting the Internet > taking away from fido net.... > > https://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gopher.meulie.net/0/fidonews/2002/fido1902.nw > s > > > In a message dated 4/30/2016 7:43:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > geneb at deltasoft.com writes: > > On Sun, 1 May 2016, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:07:34AM -0700, geneb wrote: > >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > >> > > [...] > >>> Just look into the political machinations of what was known as FidoNet > to > >>> see how this could end up. > >>> > >> What IS known as FidoNet (1:138/142 here. :) ) and it's still a > >> political shit-show, mostly due to people from Zone 2. *sigh* > > > > Pardon my ignorant question but is there a place on the net where I > > could read some more about it? Or maybe it is short enough to explain > > here? > > > Books could be written about it unfortunately, One of the more annoying > aspects is Bjorn Felten, the current editor of FidoNews - he's refused > repeated requests to pass on his editor duties for various reasons and > he's refused - for at least the last 10 years. Find a telnetable BBS > that's a member of FidoNet and start reading the FidoNews echo for a taste > of the insanity. The Fido Sysop (FNSYSOP) is also a pretty deranged > place. Thanks, both of you. Indeed the editorial of 1902 news was creepy. As of telneting, I almost registered to such BBS but at the very last moment backed off. The reason was I can see how this kind of place can be a real time sucker. I have already spent whole Sunday browsing this gopher site with lynx (I turned gateway address into proper gopher:// one). It was a hell of a joy, because I do not think I knew of meulie before. I was only poking at gopher.floodgap.com semi-regularly during last umpteen months. Now I even started to think, very shyly, how nice would it have been to posess even one real IP4 number and have one such thing on my router. It can run Linux (or so OpenWRT guys claim), so it can run gopherd too. Albeit I would rather have non-Linux on it. My dreams always have this complicated multistory property. Of course my cabletv can sell me "business" service. Ugh. This is tempting but I am strong. :-) Ah, ok. I still have nothing to show off. So there is no reason to go gopher. That was easy. Maybe next time. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue May 3 20:13:21 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 18:13:21 -0700 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76E08BC1-1B93-4BE2-AB27-5DBD9B1F4D48@eschatologist.net> Several of my friends worked on Intelligent Resources? Video Explorer NuBus card, which could do realtime video capture and manipulation because it had some sort of video processing and switching chip on the card. It also had an open bus that could be used to connect multiple video-related cards together so they could bypass NuBus for sharing data. (NuBus is only 10-40 MB/sec.) I think AnimEigo was using a subtitling system built atop Video Explorer cards right up until the switch to DVDs. -- Chris From kspt.tor at gmail.com Tue May 3 20:20:39 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 03:20:39 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 May 2016 at 01:25, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > Update on NDwiki: > > I've been in contact with the persons responsible for NDwiki. > Unfortunately, the Swedish gentleman who ran ndwiki.org got very busy > with real life just after his server died, and still hasn't found time > to get a new server up. > The contingency plan was put in motion; the necessary data was sent to > another Swedish gentleman so that he could set up a server and get > NDwiki up on that. Bad luck again; he also got too busy with real > life. He doesn't expect to be able to get the server up until this > fall. :-/ > I'm currently investigating if me running the server as a temporary > solution (until the Swedes have time to take over) is something they > could agree on. > There might be hope for NDwiki yet. > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen Ah, positive news. In the meantime I've been half-busy creating a local (private, for now) re-construction of NDwiki, from archive.org. For at least to have easy access to some of the docu I wrote that I don't have elsewhere.. (ND floppy formats, for example). Slow work, of course, with no copy of the database available. BTW in case you don't have a public server available I do have a mostly spare Linode server, or alternatively I could get another - they're relatively cheap, and have great network access. -Tor From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 3 20:43:30 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 21:43:30 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: <76E08BC1-1B93-4BE2-AB27-5DBD9B1F4D48@eschatologist.net> References: <76E08BC1-1B93-4BE2-AB27-5DBD9B1F4D48@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: Those are pretty hard to find, have yet to add one to my collection. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Hanson Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 9:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment Several of my friends worked on Intelligent Resources? Video Explorer NuBus card, which could do realtime video capture and manipulation because it had some sort of video processing and switching chip on the card. It also had an open bus that could be used to connect multiple video-related cards together so they could bypass NuBus for sharing data. (NuBus is only 10-40 MB/sec.) I think AnimEigo was using a subtitling system built atop Video Explorer cards right up until the switch to DVDs. -- Chris --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From brain at jbrain.com Tue May 3 22:08:38 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:08:38 -0500 Subject: center tapped power transformer help needed Message-ID: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> Anyone here do any transformer specification or design and would be interested in some consulting dollars to help me source/create a weird transformer option? What I need is a 12V primary, 12V:12V center tapped secondary that can support 12VA of power. Higher voltages are OK, but not needed. I am struggling on the Xformer details, but I know it needs to be center tapped, 1:1:1 @12VA Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From ian at platinum.net Tue May 3 22:29:14 2016 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:29:14 -0700 Subject: center tapped power transformer help needed In-Reply-To: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> References: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5DED5091-3172-45AF-A239-114EB95AB92A@platinum.net> Why not use a 240v CT to 120v ? Maybe something like this? http://www.signaltransformer.com/sites/all/pdf/A41.pdf Use the 240v side as your 12-0-12 and the 120v side as your 12v. Ian > On May 3, 2016, at 8:08 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > > Anyone here do any transformer specification or design and would be interested in some consulting dollars to help me source/create a weird transformer option? > > What I need is a 12V primary, 12V:12V center tapped secondary that can support 12VA of power. Higher voltages are OK, but not needed. I am struggling on the Xformer details, but I know it needs to be center tapped, 1:1:1 @12VA > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > > > --- > Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=9355F9A611A511E68F5D407693ED0201 From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 22:48:55 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:48:55 -0700 Subject: center tapped power transformer help needed In-Reply-To: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> References: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <57297127.7070409@sydex.com> On 05/03/2016 08:08 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Anyone here do any transformer specification or design and would be > interested in some consulting dollars to help me source/create a > weird transformer option? > > What I need is a 12V primary, 12V:12V center tapped secondary that > can support 12VA of power. Higher voltages are OK, but not needed. > I am struggling on the Xformer details, but I know it needs to be > center tapped, 1:1:1 @12VA 60 Hz? Maybe you could give the guys at Prem Magnetics a call. They're always sending emails offering to do custom work. http://www.premmagnetics.com/ From brain at jbrain.com Tue May 3 22:51:37 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:51:37 -0500 Subject: center tapped power transformer help needed In-Reply-To: <57297127.7070409@sydex.com> References: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> <57297127.7070409@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572971C9.5050102@jbrain.com> On 5/3/2016 10:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/03/2016 08:08 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > 60 Hz? Maybe you could give the guys at Prem Magnetics a call. They're > always sending emails offering to do custom work. > > http://www.premmagnetics.com/ Yep, 50/60Hz. I will check them out. Also, Ian, thanks for the link. I'll check them out as well. I will admit, though, those Xformers looks huge in the brochure, and I always thought those little 120->6.3V 6VA transformers I used to find in cannibalized tape recorders and such were so much smaller. Jim From erik at baigar.de Wed May 4 00:39:19 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 07:39:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: [snip] >> A 1602B can hold 64kW of memory (only accessible via a banking >> function proprietary to Rolm, so not usable e.g. for RDOS). > > I thought the 16xx did it the same way Keronix and DCC did it -- by > limiting indirection to one level and then using the high order bit for > address rather than indicating indirection? No, they implemented new instructions "double word instructions" as they called it in the 5605 programmers manual. These do not exist on 1601, 1602 and 1602 but on 1602A, 1602B and 1650. As the name suggests, they use two consecutive words in core and thus it is easy to give a 16 bit address directly. There are also some floating point instructions here and a bunch of "double precision instructions" working on 32 bit operands. So essentially the 5605 has got a microcode based 32 bit extension. I have not tried whether the DGC way works,but I know that software for Novas with two banks of core does not work - e.g. one is re- stricted to 32kW in using RDOS on the 1602B... BTW: The 1602 and 1602B have a stack implemented but I do not know (or have looked it up) whether this is compatible to some- thing else... Erik. From pete at petelancashire.com Tue May 3 16:07:07 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:07:07 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: ... The system has been modified over time, with some types (e.g. carrier pigeon -B-) dropped JETDS is one of the few things that have survived, although one had to use their imagination on a few things. On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 1:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Google JETDS. > > It will tell all. > > -- > Will > On May 3, 2016 4:35 PM, "Erik Baigar" wrote: > >> >> IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something >>>> nomenclature). >>>> >>> >>> 1666s are known as AN/UYK-64. >>> >> >> Yes and the 1602 was the AN/UYK-19. >> >> land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for >>> aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**" >>> (and also not so freaking heavy!). >>> >> >> Just out of curiosity: Is there an explanation, what the other >> letters Y and K mean? >> >> Erik. >> > From jrr at flippers.com Wed May 4 02:06:36 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 00:06:36 -0700 Subject: center tapped power transformer help needed In-Reply-To: <572971C9.5050102@jbrain.com> References: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> <57297127.7070409@sydex.com> <572971C9.5050102@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <57299F7C.1000005@flippers.com> On 05/03/2016 8:51 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 5/3/2016 10:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 05/03/2016 08:08 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> 60 Hz? Maybe you could give the guys at Prem Magnetics a call. They're >> always sending emails offering to do custom work. >> >> http://www.premmagnetics.com/ > Yep, 50/60Hz. I will check them out. > > Also, Ian, thanks for the link. I'll check them out as well. I will > admit, though, those Xformers looks huge in the brochure, and I always > thought those little 120->6.3V 6VA transformers I used to find in > cannibalized tape recorders and such were so much smaller. > > Jim > > Nothing stopping you from using two smaller transformers - 120 primary to some secondary voltage, say 24VAC, then a second transformer with a 240V CT primary that also has a 24VAC secondary. Assuming you get the VA figured out correctly these should work and be much smaller than a single 240CT to 120VAC transformer. Hammond Manufacturing makes a wide range of superior quality transformers that is widely used by the tube and regular electronics folk. https://www.hammfg.com/electronics/transformers/power/186-187 I think you will find this series helpful, note the VA rating and get yourself one of the 187C20 and a 186C20 - or for a bit extra power and to allow for losses, get the 187D20 and 186D20 - wire the 24VAC secondaries together (ignoring the centre tap on the secondaries of course). Farily compact. Hammond also will wind you a single or a thousand transformers...I like looking at their complete line, including a replacement transformer for the early 1920s RCA Radiola III battery radio. https://www.hammfg.com/electronics/transformers/classic/118944 Amazing range! https://www.hammfg.com/electronics/transformers/classic/zone John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 07:02:43 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:02:43 +0200 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3 May 2016 at 16:20, geneb wrote: > The issue is that with 64 bit versions of windows, the 16 bit thunking layer > isn't present. The simplest way to do this is to grab VMWare Player (free > download) and then create a Win98 VM. Google can point to a number of > downloadable, ready-to-run Win98SE VMs. VMware Player is freeware, not FOSS, and there might be licensing issues. VirtualBox is FOSS apart from the extensions pack. That is one reason that I recommended it. Secondly, I have experimentally tried Windows 3, 95, 98, ME, NT 3, NT 4, W2K, XP, Vista, 7, 8 & 10 under VirtualBox. Including concurrently. I recommended XP for multiple reasons: [a] It is the oldest and earliest version of Windows for which VirtualBox Guest Additions are available. This allows host/guest integration, file sharing, a shared clipboard, seamless mode, etc. Otherwise it is very difficult to get data in or out of the VM. [b] Using the ePosReady 2009 registry hack, security patches are still available, and it will run recent browsers. [c] Using the XP Mode VM, which is freely downloadable from MS, you do not need to install and customise it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 07:05:14 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:05:14 +0200 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <5728BBCB.4070805@sydex.com> References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> <5728BBCB.4070805@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3 May 2016 at 16:55, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'll retrench and restate that in terms of "it depends". If your CPU > doesn't support Hardware Virtualization Mode, you're out of luck: > > http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/5460/our-look-at-xp-mode-in-windows-7/ 16-bit support and hardware virtualisation extensions are 2 totally separate and orthogonal issues. Secondly, desktop hypervisors such as VirtualBox and VMware can do software trapping of Ring 0 instructions on systems lacking hardware virtualisation extensions, so they will still work and the method I suggest will still function. I'd expect that performance would drop 15% or so, though. I suspect that 16-bit code compatibility will remain in x86-64 until the end of its days, but I could be wrong... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 07:10:00 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:10:00 +0200 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3 May 2016 at 19:16, Mike Whalen wrote: > Something I didn?t say explicitly that has caused some confusion is the > following: > > We are an ESX 5.5 environment. None of our servers are physical, save for > the ESX server. Also, when I said ?bare-metal? earlier, what I really meant > was that the remote site runs ESX and will bring up our VMs. Aww jeez. So when you said "bare metal" you actually meant "NOT bare metal"? > So, when I say that I may need to spool up a VM to run this software, I > really mean another VM inside ESX. A separate VM on the host machine with XP and the app should be entirely doable. I strongly suggest enabling the ePosReady 2009 security tweak, though: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/26/german_tinkerer_gets_around_xpocalypse/ Getting an XPMode VM into it will be tricky, though. A reinstall might be necessary. > Or I may put Virtual Box w/ XP or Windows 98 on the 2012 VM. That would be significantly inefficient and I would not recommend it myself. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 07:28:11 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:28:11 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 29 April 2016 at 21:06, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> >> Do you really think it's growing? I'd like very much to believe that. >> I see little sign of it. I do hope you're right. > > I read Hacker News and some of the more programmer related parts of > Reddit, and yes, there are some vocal people there that would like to see C > outlawed. Fair enough. (So do I, sometimes, incidentally.) But my impression is that it's only a thing among the weirdos, not in industry or mainstream academia. :( > I, personally, don't agree with that. I would however, like to > see C programmers know assembly language before using C (I think that would > help a lot, especially with pointer usage). Sounds like a step back towards older times, and as such, I fear it is very unlikely. > I read that and it doesn't really seem that CAOS would have been much > better than what actually came out. Okay, the potentially better resource > tracking would be nice, but that's about it really. The story of ARX, the unfinished Acorn OS in Modula-2 for the then-prototype Archimedes, is similar. No, it probably wouldn't have been all that radical. I wonder how much of Amiga OS' famed performance, compactness, etc. was a direct result of its adaptation to the MMU-less 68000, and thus could never have been implemented in a way that could have been made more robust on later chips such as the 68030? > I was expecting > something like Synthesis OS: > > http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/ > > (which *is* mind blowing and I wish the code was available). Ah, yes, I've read much of that. I agree. Mind you, Taos was similarly mind-blowing for me. >> GNOME 1 was heavily based on CORBA. (I believe -- but am not sure -- >> that later versions discarded much of it.) KDE reinvented that >> particular wheel. > > I blew that one---CORBA lived for about ten years longer than I expected. Yeah. :-( I think elements of it are still around, too. > Wait ... what? You first decried about poorly-designed OSes, and then > went on to say there were better than before? I'm confused. Or are you > saying that we should have something *other* than what we do have? Well, yes, exactly. That is precisely what I'm saying. > I spent some hours on the Urbit site. Between the obscure writing, > entirely new jargon and the "we're going to change the world" attitude, it > very much feels like the Xanadu Project. I am not sure I'm the person to try to summarise it. I've nicked my own effort from my tech blog: I've not tried Urbit. (Yet.) But my impression is this: It's not obfuscatory for the hell of it. It is, yes, but for a valid reason: that he doesn't want to waste time explaining or supporting it. It's hard because you need to be v v bright to fathom it; obscurity is a user filter. He claims NOT to be a Lisp type, not to have known anything much about the language or LispMs, & to have re-invented some of the underlying ideas independently. I'm not sure I believe this. My view of it from a technical perspective is this. (This may sound over-dramatic.) We are so mired in the C world that modern CPUs are essentially C machines. The conceptual model of C, of essentially all compilers, OSes, imperative languages, &c. is a flawed one -- it is too simple an abstraction. Q.v. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 The LispM model was a better one, because it's slightly richer. That's "slightly" in the St Exupery sense, i.e. "?perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove." Instead of bytes & blocks of them, the basic unit is the list. Operations are defined in terms of lists, not bytes. You define a few very simple operations & that's all you need. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3482389/how-many-primitives-does-it-take-to-build-a-lisp-machine-ten-seven-or-five The way LispMs worked, AIUI, is that the machine language wasn't Lisp, it was something far simpler, but designed to map onto Lisp concepts. I have been told that modern CPU design & optimisations & so on map really poorly onto this set of primitives. That LispM CPUs were stack machines, but modern processors are register machines. I am not competent to judge the truth of this. If Yarvin's claims are to be believed, he has done 2 intertwined things: [1] Experimentally or theoretically worked out something akin to these primitives. [2] Found or worked out a way to map them onto modern CPUs. This is his "machine code". Something that is not directly connected or associated with modern CPUs' machine languages. He has built something OTHER but defined his own odd language to describe it & implement it. He has DELIBERATELY made it unlike anything else so you don't bring across preconceptions & mental impurities. You need to start over. The basic layer is both foundation & insulation. It's technological insulation, a barrier between the byte machine underneath & the list-oriented layer on top. It's also conceptual insulation, to make you re-learn how to work. But, as far as I can judge, the design is sane, clean, & I am taking it that he has reasons for the weirdness. I don't think it's gratuitous. So what on a LispM was the machine language, in Urbit, is Nock. It's a whole new machine language layer, placed on top of an existing OS stack, so I'm not surprised if it's horrendously inefficient. Compare with Ternac, a trinary computer implemented as a simulation on a binary machine. It's that big a change. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternac Then, on top of this layer, he's built a new type of OS. This seems to have conceptual & architectural analogies with LispM OSes such as Genera. Only Yarvin claims not to be a Lisper, so he's re-invented that wheel. That is Hoon. But he has an Agenda. Popehat explained it well here: https://popehat.com/2013/12/06/nock-hoon-etc-for-non-vulcans-why-urbit-matters/ ? via the medium of this sig: Timothy C. May, Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero knowledge, reputations, information markets, black markets, collapse of government. I would be interested in an effort to layer a bare-metal-up LispM-type layer on top of x86, ARM, &c. But Yarvin isn't here for the sheer techno-wanking. Oh no. He wants to reinvent the world, via the medium of encryption, digital currencies, &c. So he has a whole other layer on top of Urbit, which is the REASON for Urbit -- a secure, P2P, encrypted, next-gen computer system which happens to run on existing machines & over the existing Internet, because that's the available infrastructure, & whereas it's a horrid mess, it's what is there. You can't ignore it, you can't achieve these grandiose goals within it, so, you just layer your new stuff over the top. I hope that makes some kind of sense. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 07:30:38 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:30:38 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <08B4FA5C-9BB7-448F-AEC7-0C728F9E290C@swri.edu> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <08B4FA5C-9BB7-448F-AEC7-0C728F9E290C@swri.edu> Message-ID: On 30 April 2016 at 06:36, Tapley, Mark wrote: > On Apr 28, 2016, at 8:38 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> I loved BeOS but never saw the Be Book. :-( > > Sorry if this is a duplicate, I?m behind on the list by a little. I think the Be Book is effectively on-line at > > https://www.haiku-os.org/legacy-docs/bebook/ > > Haiku, open-source and ?inspired by BeOS?, is pretty easy to install on a virtual machine on VMWare or (reportedly) VirtualBox. I don?t know how faithful it is to the original Be experience, but just in case you are interested. Thanks! Yes, I've experimented with Haiku in VMs. But cheers for the link to the book -- I'll have a look. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 07:36:54 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:36:54 +0200 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 29 April 2016 at 22:23, Eric Smith wrote: > More than 95% of my work is in C, > because that's what my clients demand, so people are usually surprised > to hear my opinion that C is a terrible choice for almost anything. I am in an analogous boat. Most of my career has been based on Windows, either supporting it, working on it, writing about it or whatever. And yet, it is one of my least-favourite OSes. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 4 08:09:00 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 06:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email... In-Reply-To: <20160503233059.GA30644@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> <20160503233059.GA30644@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Tomasz Rola wrote: > Now I even started to think, very shyly, how nice would it have been > to posess even one real IP4 number and have one such thing on my > router. It can run Linux (or so OpenWRT guys claim), so it can run > gopherd too. Albeit I would rather have non-Linux on it. My dreams > always have this complicated multistory property. Of course my cabletv > can sell me "business" service. Ugh. This is tempting but I am > strong. :-) > There are services like http://www.noip.com/free where you can get a DNS entry for dynamically changing IP addresses. This way you can run a BBS without having to buy a business class account. You could even bring up an AWS instance for about $5 a month, which is great for doing BBS work. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 4 08:32:26 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 06:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 May 2016 at 16:20, geneb wrote: >> The issue is that with 64 bit versions of windows, the 16 bit thunking layer >> isn't present. The simplest way to do this is to grab VMWare Player (free >> download) and then create a Win98 VM. Google can point to a number of >> downloadable, ready-to-run Win98SE VMs. > > VMware Player is freeware, not FOSS, and there might be licensing issues. > Irrelevant. (EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and shoul be used for the same purpose.) > [c] Using the XP Mode VM, which is freely downloadable from MS, you do > not need to install and customise it. > 64 bit host OS = 64 Bit XP Mode VM. (AFAIK) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Wed May 4 08:32:33 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 08:32:33 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: I?m going to get a demonstration of this program in the next day or so. It _sounds_ like it?s just a program they use to remind two individuals what taxes are due for the various organizations the work for. If it?s really just a calendar, I am going to suggest moving that data into a new Exchange calendar that is available to anyone that needs it. That way, they?ll get reminders, they can schedule and unschedule things and we can boot this legacy application out the door. From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Wed May 4 08:35:58 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 08:35:58 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 8:32 AM, geneb wrote: > >> 64 bit host OS = 64 Bit XP Mode VM. (AFAIK) > I?m not sure offhand what the default is, but I have gotten around this problem running XP Mode on a Windows 7 x64 installation. So that XP Mode is definitely 32-bit. Cheers, m From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 08:38:21 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 15:38:21 +0200 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4 May 2016 at 15:32, geneb wrote: >> VMware Player is freeware, not FOSS, and there might be licensing issues. >> > Irrelevant. (EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and shoul be used > for the same purpose.) No, not really. Sadly. Anyway, it's irrelevant, as the OP has now clarified that he is running in a VMware ESX environment, so that would be the host. >> [c] Using the XP Mode VM, which is freely downloadable from MS, you do >> not need to install and customise it. >> > 64 bit host OS = 64 Bit XP Mode VM. (AFAIK) What? No, not even slightly true in any case whatsoever. XP Mode is a pre-installed VM image of XP Pro 32-bit, registered and activated against the virtual hardware of MS Virtual PC 2007. Since its entire purpose is to run XP apps which will not work on Win7 in a VM under Win7, it would be pointless if it was not the maximally-compatible standard 32-bit XP. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 4 09:26:27 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 10:26:27 -0400 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > On May 3, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > ... The system has been modified over time, with some types (e.g. > carrier pigeon -B-) dropped But then where does that leave RFC 1149 compliant networks? paul From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed May 4 09:29:02 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 15:29:02 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 04 May 2016 10:26:27 -0400" References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <01PZS8KF1UZQ00D9FB@beyondthepale.ie> Paul Koning wrote: > > > On May 3, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > > > ... The system has been modified over time, with some types (e.g. > > carrier pigeon -B-) dropped > > But then where does that leave RFC 1149 compliant networks? > > paul > Up in the air would be my guess. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ethan at 757.org Wed May 4 09:48:11 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 10:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Back in the early 90's I remember that many times I'd see a print > advertisement for a Video Toaster or a new genlock card, they'd say things > like "features you'd have to pay thousands for in a professional paintbox > or titler!" I always wondered what they were talking about, since I'd > never seen how broadcast was done back then (and still don't know). So, > I'm really talking about the tech of the 80's (since that's what the > marketing folks were referring to, I assume). > Here's what I could find that I'm speculating were the "competition" of > the time: I think this is one of the center companies of that world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chyron_Corporation I'm not a broadcast guy just a hobbyist but pay attention to lots of different tech stuff! A diver friend is a manager on a video production truck (top of the line type.) I've gotten to tour his current one and it was insane. I've never seen so much hardware in such a tight space (Full length trailer that slides it's entire length out to add 75% or more.) Early days was the Computer Eyes board for DOS PC. Then various windows capture systems. I've owned some PC video editing stuff like Matrox RT-2000 (sucked), and the Matrox Digisuite cards (found for sale online, soemone thought it was networking hardware but I recognized the ports.) Currently have Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio, which is very neat hardware and software. Haven't had a video toaster system... yet! -- Ethan O'Toole From Gottfried.Specht at t-online.de Wed May 4 11:18:58 2016 From: Gottfried.Specht at t-online.de (Gottfried Specht) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 18:18:58 +0200 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> Erik, I'm not sure whether it qualifies for your full list, but the HP2100A (that came out in 1971) had a "Memory Protect" hardware that "Gives the security necessary to protect a defined area of memory from alteration by a user program. Priority: Second highest priority interrupt (shared with memory parity). Operation: Initiated under program control; protects any amount of memory. Fence Register: Set under program control; memory below fence is protected. Interrupt: To trap cell for system routine when user program: a) Attempts to alter a protected location b) Attempts to jump into the protected area c) Attempts to execute an 1/0 instruction Violation Register: Contains memory address of violating instruction." (from the 1972 HP2100A Processor Description) The predecessor HP2116B (of 1968 vintage!) also had a "Memory Protect" board as an option, I cannot confirm it had the same functionality as the HP2100A above. IIRC, this was the main mechanism to protect the OS (RTE, DOS) from user code. Gottfried _____ Gottfried Specht | Gottfried at specht-online.com | +49 211 151695?+49 151 2911 2915 -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Erik Baigar Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Mai 2016 17:53 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? Dear Experts, during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be set up individually. - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the memory and IO ranges must exist. I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising the IO- and memory accesses. My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g. for safety critical applications... Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era having someting similar? Erik. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed May 4 11:56:54 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 12:56:54 -0400 Subject: Steve Dompier's coding... Message-ID: <191101d1a625$f6750540$e35f0fc0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> I took a peek at the access logs for the Cromemco Dazzler files that I recently put up on my web server. I'm gratified to see that a lot of people are taking advantage of the availability of these documents, that have not recently (if ever) been easily available on the web. I also see that a lot of people took the Dazzlemation HEX file and the Magenta Martini paper tape image, presumably to run on Udo Monk's great Windows Cromemco Z1 simulator. Also, thanks to everyone that generated pdf files for me! One thing I noticed is that not many people looked at the disassembly of Dazzlemation. If you are an 8080 or Z80 programmer (or any 8-bitter for that matter) I really recommend that you take a look, it's a real treat. I'm reliably informed that Mr. Dompier hand wrote that program LITERALLY (hand, pencil, paper), no editor, no assembler. He then toggled it in (or maybe raw keyed it in with a primitive ROM monitor) and went through a few iterations of: 1) store to paper tape 2) modify in memory 3) test 4) go to 1 It's neat to see some of the "tricks" he used and also the level of sophistication of the code. It does a lot of stuff in not a lot of bytes. Also, here and there, in "dead" areas, you can also see the debris of ideas that he started and then abandoned. Bill S. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed May 4 13:45:48 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 11:45:48 -0700 Subject: Release Notes for version 6.5 of TSX-Plus... Message-ID: <20160504114548.6789d2aa@asrock.bcwi.net> I just received from S&H a PDF copy of the TSX 6.50 Release Notes - and Jay has posted it to the http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org website. Lots of interesting/helpful information for all you TSX-Plus buffs... Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spc at conman.org Wed May 4 13:59:57 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:59:57 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > On 29 April 2016 at 21:06, Sean Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > > > I read that and it doesn't really seem that CAOS would have been much > > better than what actually came out. Okay, the potentially better resource > > tracking would be nice, but that's about it really. > > The story of ARX, the unfinished Acorn OS in Modula-2 for the > then-prototype Archimedes, is similar. > > No, it probably wouldn't have been all that radical. > > I wonder how much of Amiga OS' famed performance, compactness, etc. > was a direct result of its adaptation to the MMU-less 68000, and thus > could never have been implemented in a way that could have been made > more robust on later chips such as the 68030? Part of that was the MMU-less 68000. It certainly made message passing cheap (since you could just send a pointer and avoid copying the message) but QNX shows that even with copying, you can still have a fast operating system [1]. I think what made the Amiga so fast (even with a 7.1MHz CPU) was the specialized hardware. You pretty much used the MC68000 to script the hardware. > > I spent some hours on the Urbit site. Between the obscure writing, > > entirely new jargon and the "we're going to change the world" attitude, > > it very much feels like the Xanadu Project. > > I am not sure I'm the person to try to summarise it. > > I've nicked my own effort from my tech blog: > > I've not tried Urbit. (Yet.) > > But my impression is this: > > It's not obfuscatory for the hell of it. It is, yes, but for a valid > reason: that he doesn't want to waste time explaining or supporting > it. It's hard because you need to be v v bright to fathom it; > obscurity is a user filter. Red flag #1. > He claims NOT to be a Lisp type, not to have known anything much about > the language or LispMs, & to have re-invented some of the underlying > ideas independently. I'm not sure I believe this. > > My view of it from a technical perspective is this. (This may sound > over-dramatic.) > > We are so mired in the C world that modern CPUs are essentially C > machines. The conceptual model of C, of essentially all compilers, OSes, > imperative languages, &c. is a flawed one -- it is too simple an > abstraction. Q.v. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 Ah yes, Stanislav. Yet anohther person who goes on and on about how bad things are and makes oblique references to a better way without ever going into detail and expecting everyone to read his mind (yes, I don't have a high opinion of him either). And you do realize that Stanislav does not think highly of Urbit (he considers Yarvin as being deluded [2]). > Instead of bytes & blocks of them, the basic unit is the list. > Operations are defined in terms of lists, not bytes. You define a few > very simple operations & that's all you need. Nice in theory. Glacial performance in practice. > The way LispMs worked, AIUI, is that the machine language wasn't Lisp, > it was something far simpler, but designed to map onto Lisp concepts. > > I have been told that modern CPU design & optimisations & so on map > really poorly onto this set of primitives. That LispM CPUs were stack > machines, but modern processors are register machines. I am not > competent to judge the truth of this. The Lisp machines had tagged memory to help with the garbage collection and avoid wasting tons of memory. Yeah, it also had CPU instructions like CAR and CDR (even the IBM 704 had those [4]). Even the VAX nad QUEUE instructions to add and remove items from a linked list. I think it's really the tagged memory that made the Lisp machines special. > If Yarvin's claims are to be believed, he has done 2 intertwined things: > > [1] Experimentally or theoretically worked out something akin to these > primitives. > [2] Found or worked out a way to map them onto modern CPUs. List comprehension I believe. > This is his "machine code". Something that is not directly connected > or associated with modern CPUs' machine languages. He has built > something OTHER but defined his own odd language to describe it & > implement it. He has DELIBERATELY made it unlike anything else so you > don't bring across preconceptions & mental impurities. You need to > start over. Eh. I see that, and raise you a purely functional (as in---pure functions, no data) implementation of FizzBuzz: https://codon.com/programming-with-nothing > But, as far as I can judge, the design is sane, clean, & I am taking > it that he has reasons for the weirdness. I don't think it's > gratuitous. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I think he's being intentionally obtuse to appear profound. > So what on a LispM was the machine language, in Urbit, is Nock. It's a > whole new machine language layer, placed on top of an existing OS > stack, so I'm not surprised if it's horrendously inefficient. > > Compare with Ternac, a trinary computer implemented as a simulation on > a binary machine. It's that big a change. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternac > > Then, on top of this layer, he's built a new type of OS. This seems to > have conceptual & architectural analogies with LispM OSes such as > Genera. Only Yarvin claims not to be a Lisper, so he's re-invented > that wheel. That is Hoon. > > But he has an Agenda. > > Popehat explained it well here: > https://popehat.com/2013/12/06/nock-hoon-etc-for-non-vulcans-why-urbit-matters/ Yeah, I read that. Urbit is a functional underpinning. Of course we need to burn the disc packs. > I would be interested in an effort to layer a bare-metal-up LispM-type > layer on top of x86, ARM, &c. But Yarvin isn't here for the sheer > techno-wanking. Oh no. He wants to reinvent the world, via the medium > of encryption, digital currencies, &c. So he has a whole other layer > on top of Urbit, which is the REASON for Urbit -- a secure, P2P, > encrypted, next-gen computer system which happens to run on existing > machines & over the existing Internet, because that's the available > infrastructure, & whereas it's a horrid mess, it's what is there. You > can't ignore it, you can't achieve these grandiose goals within it, > so, you just layer your new stuff over the top. So does Stanislav. And so did Far? Rideau with TUNES. But at some point, the electrons need to meet the silicon or else it's just talk. Lots and lots of talk. Obsfucated talk at that. -spc [1] In the mid-90s I knew the owners of a local software company that sold commerical X servers. Their fastest server was under QNX, which used the native QNX message passing (copy data between two processes). [2] Yes, I'm using one crank [3] to support my position on another crank. That might make me a crank as well. I don't know. [3] Don't get me wrong---I love cranks. I find them facinating. I just don't necessarily believe in what they're saying. [4] It's a joke. Look it up. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 4 14:13:33 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:13:33 -0500 Subject: tsx-plus wikipedia article Message-ID: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> I was skimming the Wikipedia article for tsx-plus, some of it seemed off to me. Anyone know the facts for sure? 1) They suggest tsxplus generally didn't support more than 8 users well. At my high school, we had 16 users on it constantly and it seemed to perform very well. Anyone have experience along those lines? 2) They say LEX-11 (wordprocessing) was included. I don't believe so. 3) They say a spreadsheet program from Saturn Software was included. I don't think so. Saturn had a wordprocessor, but it was a chargeable product and I don't think S&H distributed it. 4) They say the latest version of TSX-Plus has TCP/IP support. That's not true, at least not built in. There was a TCP/IP stack done by a 3rd party (actually, think it was a person that ported one and put it in a public contributed library) but that wasn't "included" by S&H. Do I have those things wrong? J From jason at textfiles.com Wed May 4 14:28:10 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 15:28:10 -0400 Subject: tsx-plus wikipedia article In-Reply-To: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> References: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Jay West vs Wikipedia, always bet your money on Jay West On May 4, 2016 15:13, "Jay West" wrote: > I was skimming the Wikipedia article for tsx-plus, some of it seemed off to > me. Anyone know the facts for sure? > > > > 1) They suggest tsxplus generally didn't support more than 8 users > well. At my high school, we had 16 users on it constantly and it seemed to > perform very well. Anyone have experience along those lines? > > 2) They say LEX-11 (wordprocessing) was included. I don't believe so. > > 3) They say a spreadsheet program from Saturn Software was included. I > don't think so. Saturn had a wordprocessor, but it was a chargeable product > and I don't think S&H distributed it. > > 4) They say the latest version of TSX-Plus has TCP/IP support. That's > not true, at least not built in. There was a TCP/IP stack done by a 3rd > party (actually, think it was a person that ported one and put it in a > public contributed library) but that wasn't "included" by S&H. > > > > Do I have those things wrong? > > > > J > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 4 14:43:36 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 12:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tsx-plus wikipedia article In-Reply-To: References: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Jason Scott wrote: > On Jay West vs Wikipedia, always bet your money on Jay West Wikipedia is an amateur effort, with some serious attempts to try to reduce the errors. It is almost inevitable that somebody will declare something to have been included if THEY had it, not even necessarily being aware that they had a third party add-on. User limits are assumed and often not correct. In the other direction, 30 years ago the college got a network system for PCs that "can handle hundreds of users". I have no idea what the theoretical limit was (number of bits in node numbers?) but we were the first to ever attempt 32, at which point it took nothing to bring it to its knees. > On May 4, 2016 15:13, "Jay West" wrote: > >> I was skimming the Wikipedia article for tsx-plus, some of it seemed off to >> me. Anyone know the facts for sure? >> >> >> >> 1) They suggest tsxplus generally didn't support more than 8 users >> well. At my high school, we had 16 users on it constantly and it seemed to >> perform very well. Anyone have experience along those lines? >> >> 2) They say LEX-11 (wordprocessing) was included. I don't believe so. >> >> 3) They say a spreadsheet program from Saturn Software was included. I >> don't think so. Saturn had a wordprocessor, but it was a chargeable product >> and I don't think S&H distributed it. >> >> 4) They say the latest version of TSX-Plus has TCP/IP support. That's >> not true, at least not built in. There was a TCP/IP stack done by a 3rd >> party (actually, think it was a person that ported one and put it in a >> public contributed library) but that wasn't "included" by S&H. >> >> >> >> Do I have those things wrong? From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 4 14:53:22 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 15:53:22 -0400 Subject: tsx-plus wikipedia article In-Reply-To: References: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On May 4, 2016, at 3:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 4 May 2016, Jason Scott wrote: >> On Jay West vs Wikipedia, always bet your money on Jay West > > Wikipedia is an amateur effort, with some serious attempts to try to reduce the errors. If you see an error in Wikipedia, the friendly answer is to fix the error, not to grumble about it on mailing lists. paul From pete at petelancashire.com Wed May 4 13:30:06 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 11:30:06 -0700 Subject: Steve Dompier's coding... In-Reply-To: <6185387233014846534@unknownmsgid> References: <6185387233014846534@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Reminds me of a challenge I had in the early 80's The place I worked made IC test and evaluation systems, starting price in 1980 was around $300K and many where close to $1.5 million. This one was for IBM. They were designing a 288K bit ram and one thing they wanted was to be able to 'see' failed bits as parameters such as supply voltage were changed. If you looked at the die it was 9 'squares' of i think 128 x 256 ( i think that was the size) cell or bits. The 9 th was for parity. The memory was read by the system and a 0 or 1 was stored in a buffer in the system. The system was run by a PDP11/44 the display was a Tektronix GMA125 with option 42/43. The GMA 125 was the OEM display used in the 4116, a 25" DVST terminal. Option 42/43 was feed from a DR11. The 42/43 could be driven in Tek 401x format (that's the same you still see today when you put your X11 display into Tek mode) which had a point plotting set of commands. So one had to read in a loop this external memory which came back in some long forgotten 16 bits per something mode, calculate the position of the 'bit' which was in memory block x and position x and y in each block and either display a dot or plus or something at the respective location on the CRT. Doing it all in some time IBM wanted it done in .. loops within loops within loops and finally a test for 1 or 0 and out the DR11W. The only way I could get the code to meet IBM speed requirement was to do the unthinkable. Upon start the inner most work that was test for 'display if zero' or display if one' was modified to be branch of true or branch if false. Sometimes you just have to violate all the rules. Other fun things were using shifting bits and using indexing for some of the coordinate translations. oh well when every instruction time made a difference. it was challenging but fun -pete On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I took a peek at the access logs for the Cromemco Dazzler > files that I recently put up on my web server. I'm > gratified to see that a lot of people are taking advantage > of the availability of these documents, that have not > recently (if ever) been easily available on the web. I > also see that a lot of people took the Dazzlemation HEX > file and the Magenta Martini paper tape image, presumably > to run on Udo Monk's great Windows Cromemco Z1 simulator. > > Also, thanks to everyone that generated pdf files for me! > > One thing I noticed is that not many people looked at the > disassembly of Dazzlemation. If you are an 8080 or Z80 > programmer (or any 8-bitter for that matter) I really > recommend that you take a look, it's a real treat. I'm > reliably informed that Mr. Dompier hand wrote that program > LITERALLY (hand, pencil, paper), no editor, no assembler. > He then toggled it in (or maybe raw keyed it in with a > primitive ROM monitor) and went through a few iterations of: > > 1) store to paper tape > 2) modify in memory > 3) test > 4) go to 1 > > It's neat to see some of the "tricks" he used and also the > level of sophistication of the code. It does a lot of > stuff in not a lot of bytes. Also, here and there, in > "dead" areas, you can also see the debris of ideas that he > started and then abandoned. > > Bill S. > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 4 15:09:40 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 13:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tsx-plus wikipedia article In-Reply-To: References: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >>> On Jay West vs Wikipedia, always bet your money on Jay West >> Wikipedia is an amateur effort, with some serious attempts to try to reduce the errors. > On Wed, 4 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > If you see an error in Wikipedia, the friendly answer is to fix the error, not to grumble about it on mailing lists. Ah, but Jay was responsible enough to ask his peers for confirmation before he asserted his information. I made a few corrections a while back about the history of the West Coast Computer Faire, including the dates of some of the shows that occurred after the stated ending date, and deleting the statement that said that WCCF BECAME Comdex. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed May 4 15:31:41 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 13:31:41 -0700 Subject: Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87FE2851-E929-48B6-8ECD-162618760868@gmail.com> Well I currently have that problem with fancy cars of Italian origins, and knowledgeable people told me the real solution is to take the parts out and send them to: stickynomore.com (yes, their real name) Parts get returned in two weeks, look like new and never get sticky again. At least that?s what I am told, and everyone in the business seem to agree. Haven?t tried it yet. Don?t know the cost either, might be way over the top for a joystick! Another solution I heard was to wipe with isopropyl alcohol or goo-be-gone, but common sense tells me it?s just going to dissolve the top layer and your problem might reappear. Haven?t tried it either. Darn rubber parts. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of tim lindner Reply-To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 at 10:44 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo) On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote: What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? On a similar note, does any have a solution to firm up rubber that is just starting to gooify? I have some joystick feet that are just starting to get sticky. -- -- tim lindner "Proper User Policy apparently means Simon Says." From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed May 4 15:43:56 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 13:43:56 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: My 1974 HP 21MX, descendant of the HP 2100A, sure inherited this Memory Protect card. One register that you load, prevents access to any memory below the address of the register. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of Gottfried Specht Reply-To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 9:18 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? Erik, I'm not sure whether it qualifies for your full list, but the HP2100A (that came out in 1971) had a "Memory Protect" hardware that "Gives the security necessary to protect a defined area of memory from alteration by a user program. Priority: Second highest priority interrupt (shared with memory parity). Operation: Initiated under program control; protects any amount of memory. Fence Register: Set under program control; memory below fence is protected. Interrupt: To trap cell for system routine when user program: a) Attempts to alter a protected location b) Attempts to jump into the protected area c) Attempts to execute an 1/0 instruction Violation Register: Contains memory address of violating instruction." (from the 1972 HP2100A Processor Description) The predecessor HP2116B (of 1968 vintage!) also had a "Memory Protect" board as an option, I cannot confirm it had the same functionality as the HP2100A above. IIRC, this was the main mechanism to protect the OS (RTE, DOS) from user code. Gottfried From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 4 15:46:57 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 13:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo) In-Reply-To: <87FE2851-E929-48B6-8ECD-162618760868@gmail.com> References: <87FE2851-E929-48B6-8ECD-162618760868@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On a similar note, does any have a solution to firm up rubber that is > just starting to gooify? These days, it is hard to find "Ubik". From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed May 4 15:57:17 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 20:57:17 +0000 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED1CAB7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Sean Conner Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 12:00 PM > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> The way LispMs worked, AIUI, is that the machine language wasn't Lisp, >> it was something far simpler, but designed to map onto Lisp concepts. > The Lisp machines had tagged memory to help with the garbage collection > and avoid wasting tons of memory. Yeah, it also had CPU instructions like > CAR and CDR (even the IBM 704 had those [4]). > [4] It's a joke. Look it up. Of course it's a joke. LISP had CAR and CDR because of the 704, along with CTR and CPR! (OK, tags and prefixes got dropped in later implementations on later hardware.) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 4 16:02:59 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:02:59 -0500 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: <000001d1a648$56b69f00$0423dd00$@classiccmp.org> Marc wrote... ----- My 1974 HP 21MX, descendant of the HP 2100A, sure inherited this Memory Protect card. One register that you load, prevents access to any memory below the address of the register. ---- That's just the fence register (memory access interception) capability. There's also the I/O & HLT instruction interception, interrupt interception, etc. mentioned earlier. M.E.M. was standard option (ie. Included) with most E/F machines. I don't know if the 2114/5/6 had the same capabilities in the fence area.... J From chrise at pobox.com Wed May 4 16:07:07 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:07:07 -0500 Subject: tsx-plus wikipedia article In-Reply-To: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> References: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20160504210707.GI3147@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (05/04/2016 at 02:13PM -0500), Jay West wrote: > > 4) They say the latest version of TSX-Plus has TCP/IP support. That's > not true, at least not built in. There was a TCP/IP stack done by a 3rd > party (actually, think it was a person that ported one and put it in a > public contributed library) but that wasn't "included" by S&H. I can't comment on what was included by S&H or not but I do remember coming across this TCP/IP package for TSX-PLUS years ago, http://shop-pdp.net/tshtml/tcpip.htm This may be one of the 3rd party ones you are referring to. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 4 16:36:34 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 15:36:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo) In-Reply-To: <87FE2851-E929-48B6-8ECD-162618760868@gmail.com> References: <87FE2851-E929-48B6-8ECD-162618760868@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Curious Marc wrote: > Well I currently have that problem with fancy cars of Italian origins, > and knowledgeable people told me the real solution is to take the parts > out and send them to: stickynomore.com (yes, their real name) That's neat. I wish I had that problem (fancy cars of Italian origins). :-) > Don?t know the cost either, might be way over the top for a joystick! > Another solution I heard was to wipe with isopropyl alcohol or > goo-be-gone, but common sense tells me it?s Heh, there are guys who do their Ph.D on stuff like this (materials science). The main thing I would say (and sorry if it sounds trite) is that you want to make sure you use polar solvents and non-polar solvents (ie.. water or oil based) on the appropriate material. So, if it's an oil based adhesive, use a non-polar solvent like lighter fluid etc.. The problem with this is that (as others have said) it's very tough to know if the solvent will break down the rubber, too. You gotta test it. Just FYI, there is another possibility. Since you are a geek, you probably either have a 3D printer or know someone who does. If the part has a simple shape you can measure, grab a free copy of google sketchup (or whatever your favorite CAD program is) and model it. Then you can give the drawing to your friend had have him print the part(s) you need. If you are like me, and you have few friends, then you can use an online service like i.Materialize or Shapeways and have them print it. The key is to use a filament base that has the same dynamics as the part you are replacing. Some market-droid talk from a filament maker about rubber materials: " With Rubber-like PolyJet photopolymers, you can simulate rubber with different levels of hardness, elongation and tear resistance. " Thus, if it's not too crazy-complex of a part, you could probably do it for not-much-more money than what it'd cost to buy some kind of reconditioning solvents. If it *is* a complex part, you might consider doing a 3D scan first (again you can use a service) and then working off the that model. It's just a random idea that could help. -Swift From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed May 4 16:47:40 2016 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 23:47:40 +0200 Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email... In-Reply-To: References: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> <20160503233059.GA30644@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20160504214740.GA4612@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 06:09:00AM -0700, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 4 May 2016, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > >Now I even started to think, very shyly, how nice would it have been [...] > >can sell me "business" service. Ugh. This is tempting but I am > >strong. :-) > > > There are services like http://www.noip.com/free where you can get a > DNS entry for dynamically changing IP addresses. This way you can > run a BBS without having to buy a business class account. Yeah... unless I am behind a NAT - and I believe I am behind at least two, of which at least one is out of my control, hence no making holes (or tunnels). So if I wanted to host it at home, I would have to buy business account. And build me some "infrastructure". At the moment, time is a limited resource and I have to spent it wisely. > You could even bring up an AWS instance for about $5 a month, which > is great for doing BBS work. :) Hehe, trying to lure me? See, maybe I would went for it when world and I were a bit younger. Nowadays... I believe a so called "provider" is responsible for what he provides, even if he did not do anything himself. So I would have to be on a permament watch, catching probabilistic but maybe just imagined guys who would like to pee into my morning tea for fun or (their own) profit. Or rather, please themselves without any regard for my morning tea or me. Looking from such angle, I guess it is much easier to do just small personal type of a project, read-only static pages etc. We will see. A project or two later, few unread books later, we will see. Well I am not sure what we will see, but just seeing is great thing to do, too :-). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 4 17:02:08 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 15:02:08 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: <572A7160.2080206@sydex.com> Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? (i.e. was the word invented before then?). If so, the 1700 had a rather elaborate system of memory and peripheral protection. Circa 1965 (at least that's the date on my manual). --Chuck From macro at linux-mips.org Wed May 4 18:17:52 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 00:17:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo) In-Reply-To: References: <87FE2851-E929-48B6-8ECD-162618760868@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Don?t know the cost either, might be way over the top for a joystick! > > Another solution I heard was to wipe with isopropyl alcohol or > > goo-be-gone, but common sense tells me it?s > > Heh, there are guys who do their Ph.D on stuff like this (materials > science). The main thing I would say (and sorry if it sounds trite) is > that you want to make sure you use polar solvents and non-polar solvents > (ie.. water or oil based) on the appropriate material. So, if it's an oil > based adhesive, use a non-polar solvent like lighter fluid etc.. The > problem with this is that (as others have said) it's very tough to know if > the solvent will break down the rubber, too. You gotta test it. That's the rule of thumb, but as usually there are exceptions. For example water and cyclohexane are strictly polar and non-polar respectively, but ethanol and IPA are a bit of both, owing to their molecules' structure (IPA's also highly hygroscopic). Depending on the intended use this may be an advantage or disadvantage, and that of course also means you need to research any solvent before use, by either studying available data or empirically. Maciej From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed May 4 18:46:42 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:46:42 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <000001d1a648$56b69f00$0423dd00$@classiccmp.org> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> <000001d1a648$56b69f00$0423dd00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006ACFA7-94EE-4BE4-9932-7532F6B8E1E3@gmail.com> > Marc wrote... > ----- > My 1974 HP 21MX, descendant of the HP 2100A, sure inherited this Memory Protect card. One register that you load, prevents access to any memory below the address of the register. > ---- > That's just the fence register (memory access interception) capability. There's also the I/O & HLT instruction interception, interrupt interception, etc. mentioned earlier. [...] > J Yes, I didn't know it was more comprehensive. I just learned it from this thread! Is this a good message board or what... Marc From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed May 4 19:06:36 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 17:06:36 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572A7160.2080206@sydex.com> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> <572A7160.2080206@sydex.com> Message-ID: In the not mini but very maxi category, I just learned that IBM implemented memory protection as an RPQ (customer feature) at the request of the MIT folks that built the first IBM time sharing system (CTSS, the predecessor of Multics), on their IBM 7094. Around 1963, unless it was already implemented in the IBM 7090 which would have been 1961. At least that's my cursory understanding of it from www.multicians.org/thvv/7094.html . I was very surprised it was that early! Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 4, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? > (i.e. was the word invented before then?). > > If so, the 1700 had a rather elaborate system of memory and peripheral > protection. Circa 1965 (at least that's the date on my manual). > > --Chuck > From andy.holt at tesco.net Wed May 4 19:07:00 2016 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 00:07:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572A7160.2080206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> > Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? > (i.e. was the word invented before then?). Though functionally it sort of had the minicomputer nature, it was physically a bit large for that term ? would have been called a "process control" computer. I also don't think I heard the word "minicomputer" until a couple of years after I first saw a CDC 1700. From chd at chdickman.com Wed May 4 19:52:29 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 20:52:29 -0400 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface Message-ID: Has anyone ever worked up a PC parallel port to Facit 4070 paper tape punch interface? I found one on a Swedish website. The punch parallel input looks like it is TTL compatible, but I can't find anything in the documentation that describes the input voltage specifications. Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 4 19:59:28 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 00:59:28 +0000 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most punches with a parallel input can be cross wired to a parallel port. If the strobe is upside down, you can use one of the other signals. Many punches have a jumper for the strobe polarity. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Charles Dickman Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 5:52:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface Has anyone ever worked up a PC parallel port to Facit 4070 paper tape punch interface? I found one on a Swedish website. The punch parallel input looks like it is TTL compatible, but I can't find anything in the documentation that describes the input voltage specifications. Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 4 20:21:18 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 21:21:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Crippled connectivity [was Re: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email...] In-Reply-To: <20160504214740.GA4612@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> <20160503233059.GA30644@tau1.ceti.pl> <20160504214740.GA4612@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <201605050121.VAA03917@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> There are services like http://www.noip.com/free where you can get a >> DNS entry for dynamically changing IP addresses. This way you can >> run a BBS without having to buy a business class account. > Yeah... unless I am behind a NAT - and I believe I am behind at least > two, of which at least one is out of my control, hence no making > holes (or tunnels). Sure you can tunnel; you just have to initiate the tunnel connection from the inside. I too have a host (at work) that's behind double NAT; it initiates and maintains a tunnel connection to an external host, and voila! my external hosts can reach the internal host. Not as good as native connectivity, but it works "well enough". (Yes, work knows about it. They don't mind.) Of course, this needs a friendly host on the outside. In my case, I find that cost well worth paying.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 4 21:33:03 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 19:33:03 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> On 05/04/2016 05:07 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > >> Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? >> (i.e. was the word invented before then?). > > Though functionally it sort of had the minicomputer nature, it was > physically a bit large for that term ? would have been called a > "process control" computer. I also don't think I heard the word > "minicomputer" until a couple of years after I first saw a CDC 1700. Well, I don't know. By the time the Cyber 18 came out, it was a 120 VAC powered unit that a strongish person could lift off the floor (about 90 lbs)--and functionally pretty much the same machine as the original 1700, just implemented with more advanced technology. If that's not a minicomputer, I don't know what is. We used them as data concentrators hooked to leased lines, card readers and punches and various other peripherals. If the 1700 isn't a minicomputer, you'll have to correct the Wikipedia article. --Chuck From andy.holt at tesco.net Wed May 4 22:24:00 2016 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 03:24:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> Message-ID: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of the term "minicomputer" I strongly suspect it was around the time that the PDP11/20 came out or slightly later. The IBM 1130 and 1800 were comparable to the /original/ CDC 1700, were similarly launched in the mid 60s, but similarly they were not /at that time/ referred to as minis. In retrospect we might well call these minicomputers but that is not the question as stated. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, 5 May, 2016 3:33:03 AM Subject: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? On 05/04/2016 05:07 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > >> Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? >> (i.e. was the word invented before then?). > > Though functionally it sort of had the minicomputer nature, it was > physically a bit large for that term ? would have been called a > "process control" computer. I also don't think I heard the word > "minicomputer" until a couple of years after I first saw a CDC 1700. Well, I don't know. By the time the Cyber 18 came out, it was a 120 VAC powered unit that a strongish person could lift off the floor (about 90 lbs)--and functionally pretty much the same machine as the original 1700, just implemented with more advanced technology. If that's not a minicomputer, I don't know what is. We used them as data concentrators hooked to leased lines, card readers and punches and various other peripherals. If the 1700 isn't a minicomputer, you'll have to correct the Wikipedia article. --Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed May 4 22:32:04 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 20:32:04 -0700 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <572ABEB4.4010800@sbcglobal.net> On 5/4/2016 5:52 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > Has anyone ever worked up a PC parallel port to Facit 4070 paper tape > punch interface? > > I found one on a Swedish website. The punch parallel input looks like > it is TTL compatible, but I can't find anything in the documentation > that describes the input voltage specifications. > > Chuck > Check this link out: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~pmaydell/misc/cardpunch/dongle.htm It shows how to build a PC to 4070 interface. Basically inverting a few signals. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 00:07:10 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 22:07:10 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <572AD4FE.9030201@sydex.com> On 05/04/2016 08:24 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of > the term "minicomputer" I strongly suspect it was around the time > that the PDP11/20 came out or slightly later. The IBM 1130 and 1800 > were comparable to the /original/ CDC 1700, were similarly launched > in the mid 60s, but similarly they were not /at that time/ referred > to as minis. Merriam Webster and the OED gives the first published use in 1967 http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/1967_words/ The 1700 would fit into that in at least one of its incarnations. The 160A would not, as it went out of production in 1965, for example. Sometimes words can be misleading. The word "microcomputer" when initially used, did not mean what we think of today--that of a certain level of integration of an IC that includes most of the component parts of a computer. AES used this same term much earlier for "a computer than can be microprogrammed" as implemented in a cage of of cards. --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu May 5 00:10:31 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 22:10:31 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: For the fun of the argument: I was privileged enough to see Carl's IBM 1130, and to my newbie eye, it may justifiably earn the title of "small" computer, when compared to its brethren of the time. But it would never occur to me to call it a mini! It's quite a biggie computer actually. Heavy stuff, forklift or winch needed to put it safely in the truck as I recall. Then I thought our IBM 1401 was big. That's when more knowledgeable people pointed me to the IBM 7090. Now that's *really* big. And then you have SAGE. Now that's huge. Or insane, depending on your engineering point of view :-). Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 4, 2016, at 8:24 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > > Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of the term "minicomputer" > I strongly suspect it was around the time that the PDP11/20 came out or slightly later. > The IBM 1130 and 1800 were comparable to the /original/ CDC 1700, were similarly launched in the mid 60s, > but similarly they were not /at that time/ referred to as minis. > > In retrospect we might well call these minicomputers but that is not the question as stated. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Guzis" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Thursday, 5 May, 2016 3:33:03 AM > Subject: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? > >> On 05/04/2016 05:07 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: >> >>> Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? >>> (i.e. was the word invented before then?). >> >> Though functionally it sort of had the minicomputer nature, it was >> physically a bit large for that term ? would have been called a >> "process control" computer. I also don't think I heard the word >> "minicomputer" until a couple of years after I first saw a CDC 1700. > > Well, I don't know. By the time the Cyber 18 came out, it was a 120 VAC > powered unit that a strongish person could lift off the floor (about 90 > lbs)--and functionally pretty much the same machine as the original > 1700, just implemented with more advanced technology. > > If that's not a minicomputer, I don't know what is. > > We used them as data concentrators hooked to leased lines, card readers > and punches and various other peripherals. > > If the 1700 isn't a minicomputer, you'll have to correct the Wikipedia > article. > > --Chuck > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 5 00:08:25 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 05:08:25 +0000 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Has anyone ever worked up a PC parallel port to Facit 4070 paper tape > punch interface? Are you talking about a modern USB-parallel cable type interface or the original PC parallel interface where you could individually control all the lines? > I found one on a Swedish website. The punch parallel input looks like > it is TTL compatible, but I can't find anything in the documentation > that describes the input voltage specifications. There are at least 3 versions of the 4070 main board. The earliest (and in my experience most common) one uses DTL running at 6V. Later ones are TTL. However in all cases I've had no problems directly connected TTL signals to the 4070. No idea what modern 'TTL compatible' (but not real TTL) would do. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 00:29:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 22:29:12 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <572ADA28.5060807@sydex.com> On 05/04/2016 10:10 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > For the fun of the argument: I was privileged enough to see Carl's > IBM 1130, and to my newbie eye, it may justifiably earn the title of > "small" computer, when compared to its brethren of the time. But it > would never occur to me to call it a mini! It's quite a biggie > computer actually. Heavy stuff, forklift or winch needed to put it > safely in the truck as I recall. Then I thought our IBM 1401 was big. > That's when more knowledgeable people pointed me to the IBM 7090. Now > that's *really* big. And then you have SAGE. Now that's huge. Or > insane, depending on your engineering point of view :-). On the other hand, the PB250 was contained in a single 5' rack (table model), ran off of a single 15A 120V circuit and weighed a bit over 100 lbs. I'd call it a minicomputer if it weren't for the fact that it was brought out around 1961. 22 bit words. Up to about 16KW in the box; magnetostrictive delay line memory, bit-serial ALU. IIRC, lotsa diodes, but comparatively few (ca. 300-400) transistors. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 5 01:23:36 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 02:23:36 -0400 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: > Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of the term "minicomputer" > I strongly suspect it was around the time that the PDP11/20 came out or slightly later. Ngram shows the first real use about 1967, with a peak about 1983. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 5 01:34:20 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 02:34:20 -0400 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> References: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Well, I don't know. By the time the Cyber 18 came out, it was a 120 VAC > powered unit that a strongish person could lift off the floor (about 90 > lbs)--and functionally pretty much the same machine as the original > 1700, just implemented with more advanced technology. 1774 was from about 1967, and basically a six foot rack. 1784 was from about 1974, and about the same volume as a PDP-8/e. I think the Wiki article may be wrong about the date of the original 1700 systems (1704) being mid-1966. That seems late. When I get back home, I might look at the chunks I have to see if I can get date codes. > If that's not a minicomputer, I don't know what is. Wasn't minicomputer really a marketing term, anyway? Suits and all? -- Will From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Wed May 4 16:00:44 2016 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 17:00:44 -0400 Subject: Memory and I/O protection on the 940 Message-ID: Al mentioned the 940 so I thought I would fill in the details: Lichtenberger and Pirtle extended the hardware to include a page map: 14 bits of VA was divided into 3 bits of page # and 11 bits of offset. The 8 pages were held in 2 x 24 bit words divided into a 8 x 6 bit page numbers. The high order bit of the mapped page number served as the Read Only bit. This meant that "subsystems" (a.k.a. applications) could be shared between users. Additionally, the instruction set was protected against users with specific prohibition against using the I/O instructions. This was described in FJCC 1965 with modifications done in 1964. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 5 03:15:35 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 09:15:35 +0100 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> <572A7160.2080206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <08d501d1a6a6$4d192310$e74b6930$@gmail.com> I thought we were talking Mini Computers. The Ferranti/Manchester Atlas had virtual memory of a sort which provided protection, and indeed IBM bought the Virtual Memory patents from Manchester University. I gather the PDP/11 received Memory Mapping boards early in its life, didn't these offer some protection? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curious > Marc > Sent: 05 May 2016 01:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? > > In the not mini but very maxi category, I just learned that IBM implemented > memory protection as an RPQ (customer feature) at the request of the MIT > folks that built the first IBM time sharing system (CTSS, the predecessor of > Multics), on their IBM 7094. Around 1963, unless it was already implemented > in the IBM 7090 which would have been 1961. At least that's my cursory > understanding of it from www.multicians.org/thvv/7094.html . I was very > surprised it was that early! > Marc > > Sent from my iPad > > > On May 4, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? > > (i.e. was the word invented before then?). > > > > If so, the 1700 had a rather elaborate system of memory and peripheral > > protection. Circa 1965 (at least that's the date on my manual). > > > > --Chuck > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 5 03:17:19 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 09:17:19 +0100 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <08d801d1a6a6$8afb9320$a0f2b960$@gmail.com> But an original PDP/11 is almost as massive...... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curious > Marc > Sent: 05 May 2016 06:11 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? > > For the fun of the argument: I was privileged enough to see Carl's IBM 1130, > and to my newbie eye, it may justifiably earn the title of "small" computer, > when compared to its brethren of the time. But it would never occur to me to > call it a mini! It's quite a biggie computer actually. Heavy stuff, forklift or winch > needed to put it safely in the truck as I recall. Then I thought our IBM 1401 was > big. That's when more knowledgeable people pointed me to the IBM 7090. Now > that's *really* big. And then you have SAGE. Now that's huge. Or insane, > depending on your engineering point of view :-). > Marc > > Sent from my iPad > > > On May 4, 2016, at 8:24 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > > > > Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of the > term "minicomputer" > > I strongly suspect it was around the time that the PDP11/20 came out or > slightly later. > > The IBM 1130 and 1800 were comparable to the /original/ CDC 1700, were > > similarly launched in the mid 60s, but similarly they were not /at that time/ > referred to as minis. > > > > In retrospect we might well call these minicomputers but that is not the > question as stated. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chuck Guzis" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Thursday, 5 May, 2016 3:33:03 AM > > Subject: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in > Minis)? > > > >> On 05/04/2016 05:07 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > >> > >>> Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? > >>> (i.e. was the word invented before then?). > >> > >> Though functionally it sort of had the minicomputer nature, it was > >> physically a bit large for that term ? would have been called a > >> "process control" computer. I also don't think I heard the word > >> "minicomputer" until a couple of years after I first saw a CDC 1700. > > > > Well, I don't know. By the time the Cyber 18 came out, it was a 120 > > VAC powered unit that a strongish person could lift off the floor > > (about 90 lbs)--and functionally pretty much the same machine as the > > original 1700, just implemented with more advanced technology. > > > > If that's not a minicomputer, I don't know what is. > > > > We used them as data concentrators hooked to leased lines, card > > readers and punches and various other peripherals. > > > > If the 1700 isn't a minicomputer, you'll have to correct the Wikipedia > > article. > > > > --Chuck > > From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 5 03:41:32 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:41:32 +0200 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-05-03 17:52 GMT+02:00 Erik Baigar : > > Dear Experts, > > during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: > What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered > memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: > > - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) > - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) > - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be > set up individually. > - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. > - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the > memory and IO ranges must exist. > > I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented > and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as > Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module > which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an > additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising > the IO- and memory accesses. > > My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding > protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual > processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g. > for safety critical applications... > > Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to > support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some > Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. > > Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era having > someting similar? > > Erik. > > What about the Norsk Data series of machines, NORD-1, NORD-10 etc. The NORD-10 had memory protection and paging. Circa 1973. According to the wiki page the NORD-1 had an option to provide virtual memory. The wiki page claim the NORD-1 to be the first mini to have virtual memory (1969). I cannot really tell if this is true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord-1 /Mattis From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 03:35:50 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:35:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Gottfried Specht wrote: > I'm not sure whether it qualifies for your full list, but the HP2100A (that came out in 1971) had a "Memory Protect" hardware that Hi Gottfried, thanks for the excellent answer - yes I think this is exactly what matches my specification! Thanks. It is really astonishing how many people know a lot on various machines which is really great. I suspected that HP had something, too. > Fence Register: Set under program control; memory below fence is protected. This is a clever and somewhat outstanding feature - most others use protection on basis of blocks ar abuse the virtual memory for the purpose ;-) Best regards, Erik. > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Erik Baigar > Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Mai 2016 17:53 > An: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Betreff: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? > > > Dear Experts, > > during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: > What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered > memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: > > - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) > - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) > - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be > set up individually. > - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. > - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the > memory and IO ranges must exist. > > I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising the IO- and memory accesses. > > My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g. > for safety critical applications... > > Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. > > Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era having someting similar? > > Erik. > From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 03:46:07 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:46:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <08d501d1a6a6$4d192310$e74b6930$@gmail.com> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> <572A7160.2080206@sydex.com> <08d501d1a6a6$4d192310$e74b6930$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Dave Wade wrote: > I thought we were talking Mini Computers. The Ferranti/Manchester Atlas had > virtual memory of a sort which provided protection, and indeed IBM bought > the Virtual Memory patents from Manchester University. I gather the PDP/11 > received Memory Mapping boards early in its life, didn't these offer some > protection? Yes, originally I had Minis in mind, and yes - this term is not well defined. Anyhow I learned a lot from all the answers as many differnet machines have been covered in contrast to the normally DEC biased traffic here. What still is a quite interesting question for me is, that purely "mapped memory" or "virtual memory" does not match the answerr to my question as it still lacks the IO aspect and I'd call it only memory protection if there is a method to prevent ordinary programs from modifying the memory map. So from my point of view the HP2100 matches the criteria of my initial question, the Rolm APM does but probabaly some others mentioned for their virtual memory do not. E.g. the DG mapped memory (Nova3 or Eclipse) lacks the "user prohibited to modify map" feature I think. And for sure: Atlas was a very interesting machine with great capa- bilities for its days! Erik. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curious >> Marc >> Sent: 05 May 2016 01:07 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in > Minis)? >> >> In the not mini but very maxi category, I just learned that IBM > implemented >> memory protection as an RPQ (customer feature) at the request of the MIT >> folks that built the first IBM time sharing system (CTSS, the predecessor > of >> Multics), on their IBM 7094. Around 1963, unless it was already > implemented >> in the IBM 7090 which would have been 1961. At least that's my cursory >> understanding of it from www.multicians.org/thvv/7094.html . I was very >> surprised it was that early! >> Marc >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On May 4, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>> Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? >>> (i.e. was the word invented before then?). >>> >>> If so, the 1700 had a rather elaborate system of memory and peripheral >>> protection. Circa 1965 (at least that's the date on my manual). >>> >>> --Chuck >>> > From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 03:50:24 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:50:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > Google JETDS. > > It will tell all. Thanks - that is the perfect link. There is some information on the AN/AYK-14, an airborne computer, on the web... > On May 3, 2016 4:35 PM, "Erik Baigar" wrote: > >> >> IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something >>>> nomenclature). >>>> >>> >>> 1666s are known as AN/UYK-64. >>> >> >> Yes and the 1602 was the AN/UYK-19. >> >> land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for >>> aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**" >>> (and also not so freaking heavy!). >>> >> >> Just out of curiosity: Is there an explanation, what the other >> letters Y and K mean? >> >> Erik. >> > From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 03:53:42 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:53:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <20160503210117.A8DCF18C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160503210117.A8DCF18C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > A set of standards for allowed levels of emissions (in particular, > electro-magnetic radiation) from communication/computing gear, intended to > prevent listening to the activity of that gear: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename) Thanks, very interesting reading and this must be a quite sensitive topic. As one party tries to develop equipment according to this standard, other parties will try to "listen" even than... From radiotest at juno.com Thu May 5 06:54:32 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 07:54:32 -0400 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.syn acor.com> References: <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160505074916.03e822b8@juno.com> At 11:24 PM 5/4/2016, Andy Holt wrote: >Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of the term "minicomputer" I am not the OED, but when I first saw the TX-0 and the PDP-1 at MIT in late 1964 or early 1965 I believe that I heard the term minicomputer applied to them. Certainly when I next saw them in the summer of 1967 both were being called minicomputers by the staff there. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From tingox at gmail.com Thu May 5 07:09:58 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 14:09:58 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:20 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > > Ah, positive news. In the meantime I've been half-busy creating a > local (private, for now) re-construction of NDwiki, from archive.org. I was thinking about doing the same, but so far I haven't. > BTW in case you don't > have a public server available I do have a mostly spare Linode server, > or alternatively I could get another - they're relatively cheap, and > have great network access. Thanks. There is also Jay West's standing offer to host classic computing websites. Anyway, the two busy Swedes will decide; I'm just offering to help. I will happily implement / set up the solution they decide on, as long as the result is that NDwiki.org is online again. I will post any news when I have them (since busy people is involved, it could take some time). -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From tingox at gmail.com Thu May 5 07:27:36 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 14:27:36 +0200 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:08 AM, tony duell wrote: > >> Has anyone ever worked up a PC parallel port to Facit 4070 paper tape >> punch interface? > > Are you talking about a modern USB-parallel cable type interface or the > original PC parallel interface where you could individually control all > the lines? FWIW, In cases where a real parallel port is missing (happens all the time now), you can easily and quite cheaply use an Arduino-type microcontroller instead. Easily programmed, comes in 3.3V and 5V versions (for the I/O pins), and many (most?) versions have usb already on board. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 03:48:06 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:48:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Memory and I/O protection on the 940 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Mark Kahrs wrote: > Al mentioned the 940 so I thought I would fill in the details: > > Lichtenberger and Pirtle extended the hardware to include a page map: 14 > bits of VA was divided into 3 bits of page # and 11 bits of offset. The 8 > pages were held in 2 x 24 bit words divided into a 8 x 6 bit page numbers. > The high order bit of the mapped page number served as the Read Only bit. > This meant that "subsystems" (a.k.a. applications) could be shared between > users. > > Additionally, the instruction set was protected against users with specific > prohibition against using the I/O instructions. > > This was described in FJCC 1965 with modifications done in 1964. Yes, perfect match to the criteria in my question! Here we have an other very early one... Thanks, Erik! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 5 08:17:53 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 09:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) Message-ID: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Erik Baigar > very interesting reading If you want to see a great example of why it was important, check out the so-called 'Berlin Tunnel': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/tunnel-200702.pdf Some of the traffic that was intercepted was teletype traffic - which had been encrypted. However, the equipment that connected the gear to the line allowed a tiny electronic whisper of the original plain-text onto the line, along with the encrypted form, and it was possible to read the plaintext off the line with suitable gear. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 5 09:15:40 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:15:40 -0400 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160503210117.A8DCF18C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On May 5, 2016, at 4:53 AM, Erik Baigar wrote: > > > > On Tue, 3 May 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> A set of standards for allowed levels of emissions (in particular, >> electro-magnetic radiation) from communication/computing gear, intended to >> prevent listening to the activity of that gear: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename) > > Thanks, very interesting reading and this must be a quite sensitive > topic. As one party tries to develop equipment according to this > standard, other parties will try to "listen" even than... One of the more interesting Tempest creations is a font (for CRT displays, i.e., ones with analog video) that drastically reduces the emissions from the video signal. It was created by Markus Kuhn and Ross Anderson at U. Cambridge. https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/emsec/softtempest-faq.html paul From db at db.net Thu May 5 10:26:28 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 11:26:28 -0400 Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) In-Reply-To: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160505152628.GA68874@night.db.net> On Thu, May 05, 2016 at 09:17:53AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Erik Baigar > > > very interesting reading > > If you want to see a great example of why it was important, check out the > so-called 'Berlin Tunnel': I remember working in a TEMPEST room up here in Ottawa (CDC Canada). It echoed as I recalled. Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From useddec at gmail.com Thu May 5 10:33:52 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:33:52 -0500 Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) In-Reply-To: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: The actual Tempest specs used to be classified. On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Erik Baigar > > > very interesting reading > > If you want to see a great example of why it was important, check out the > so-called 'Berlin Tunnel': > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold > http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/tunnel-200702.pdf > > Some of the traffic that was intercepted was teletype traffic - which had > been encrypted. However, the equipment that connected the gear to the line > allowed a tiny electronic whisper of the original plain-text onto the line, > along with the encrypted form, and it was possible to read the plaintext > off > the line with suitable gear. > > Noel > From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 10:38:33 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 17:38:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) In-Reply-To: References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Paul Anderson wrote: > The actual Tempest specs used to be classified. Very understandable and a good idea! From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 10:40:58 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 17:40:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) In-Reply-To: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > If you want to see a great example of why it was important, check out the > so-called 'Berlin Tunnel': > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold > http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/tunnel-200702.pdf > Many thanks - that is indeed an outstanding project and especially the original report is a better reading than most books on such stories. They really transcribed a huge amount of data and everything manually... One does not really want to know what is possible (and done) today - where there is no need to dig tunnels any more ;-) From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 10:48:09 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 17:48:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160503210117.A8DCF18C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: [snip] > displays, i.e., ones with analog video) that drastically reduces the > emissions from the video signal. It was created by Markus Kuhn and Ross > Anderson at U. Cambridge. > https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/emsec/softtempest-faq.html Quite interesting, but I believe that nowadays this is a smaller problem than the omnipresent internet connection and the huge amount of black-box software with even more backdoors, security-holes and calling-home features which all are claimed to be there just to make software better and help the customer. OK, this thread is drifting away from the vintage computing field ;-) Thanks for the link! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 5 11:37:05 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 09:37:05 -0700 Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) In-Reply-To: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <48781383-D54A-4EA0-9CDD-997AD41D3101@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-05, at 6:17 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Erik Baigar > >> very interesting reading > > If you want to see a great example of why it was important, check out the > so-called 'Berlin Tunnel': > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold > http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/tunnel-200702.pdf > > Some of the traffic that was intercepted was teletype traffic - which had > been encrypted. However, the equipment that connected the gear to the line > allowed a tiny electronic whisper of the original plain-text onto the line, > along with the encrypted form, and it was possible to read the plaintext off > the line with suitable gear. A Model 28 teletype with DND (Ca. Department of National Defence) tags on it I was working on a couple years ago had been modified for what I can only presume to be TEMPEST qualification. All the standard wiring and electrical stuff - not just the current loop signal wiring but even the basic AC line wiring for the motor and such, all the way out to the wall plug - had been removed and replaced with shielded cable and connectors. The normal keyboard contacts and print selection magnets were replaced with units enclosed in shielded housings. The power line had a large noise filter in it's own RF-shielded housing. From useddec at gmail.com Thu May 5 11:49:13 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 11:49:13 -0500 Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) In-Reply-To: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Here is a good look at the project from a few different perspectives. It is a somewhat popular story within the various intelligence communities that can probably still cause arguments. They gathered so many tapes it took tears to through them, and a lot of people believe the Russians knew about it the whole time, I don't think No Such Agency was around yet. It's a good read, enjoy! http*David C. Martin* (born July 28, 1943) is an American television news correspondent , journalist , and author who works for CBS News . He is currently the network's National Security Correspondent reporting from The Pentagon , a position he has held since 1993. Martin has contributed reports to the CBS Evening News , 60 Minutes , and48 Hours .[1] :// books.google.com/books?id=kpNwCgiTJXEC On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Erik Baigar > > > very interesting reading > > If you want to see a great example of why it was important, check out the > so-called 'Berlin Tunnel': > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold > http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/tunnel-200702.pdf > > Some of the traffic that was intercepted was teletype traffic - which had > been encrypted. However, the equipment that connected the gear to the line > allowed a tiny electronic whisper of the original plain-text onto the line, > along with the encrypted form, and it was possible to read the plaintext > off > the line with suitable gear. > > Noel > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 5 12:06:34 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 12:06:34 -0500 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572ADA28.5060807@sydex.com> References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572ADA28.5060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572B7D9A.3080801@pico-systems.com> On 05/05/2016 12:29 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On the other hand, the PB250 was contained in a single 5' rack (table > model), ran off of a single 15A 120V circuit and weighed a bit over 100 > lbs. I'd call it a minicomputer if it weren't for the fact that it was > brought out around 1961. 22 bit words. Up to about 16KW in the box; > magnetostrictive delay line memory, bit-serial ALU. IIRC, lotsa diodes, > but comparatively few (ca. 300-400) transistors. > > Another "mini" was the Bendix G-15, 300+ vacuum tubes, 3000 diodes and a drum memory. Certainly no memory protection on it. It was the size of a refrigerator. And another, the LINC, discrete transistor machine, 2K 12-bit words and a software driven screen, so it was actually interactive. Storage was LINCtapes, the predecessor to DECtapes. Fit in a single 5' relay rack, with a console on a desk. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 12:19:45 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:19:45 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572B7D9A.3080801@pico-systems.com> References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572ADA28.5060807@sydex.com> <572B7D9A.3080801@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <572B80B1.2070700@sydex.com> On 05/05/2016 10:06 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > And another, the LINC, discrete transistor machine, 2K 12-bit words > and a software driven screen, so it was actually interactive. Storage > was LINCtapes, the predecessor to DECtapes. Fit in a single 5' relay > rack, with a console on a desk. ...and, of course, the tabletop Univac 422. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 12:34:16 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:34:16 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572B8418.7070405@sydex.com> On 05/04/2016 11:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Wasn't minicomputer really a marketing term, anyway? Suits and all? Well, it was the sixties, after all. We all forget "midicomputer". :) One thing that some may not know about the 1700 is that it had a *per-word* protection bit as well as I/O protection on a "per device" basis. I don't know of any other computers with that feature. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 5 12:58:00 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 13:58:00 -0400 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572B8418.7070405@sydex.com> References: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> <572B8418.7070405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6313DA36-FC9D-4828-89EF-7D679F12FCBE@comcast.net> > On May 5, 2016, at 1:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 05/04/2016 11:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Wasn't minicomputer really a marketing term, anyway? Suits and all? > > Well, it was the sixties, after all. We all forget "midicomputer". :) > > One thing that some may not know about the 1700 is that it had a > *per-word* protection bit as well as I/O protection on a "per device" > basis. I don't know of any other computers with that feature. Burroughs mainframes? While the tag bits aren't quite semantically equivalent to protection, you get some of the same benefits. paul From Gottfried.Specht at t-online.de Thu May 5 13:55:55 2016 From: Gottfried.Specht at t-online.de (Gottfried Specht) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 20:55:55 +0200 Subject: AW: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: <01a401d1a6ff$c13125f0$439371d0$@t-online.de> Thanks, Erik. How do I remember this ca. 40 years later? Well, while servicing these systems they would frequently stop with a "Memory Protect Error" (various Operating Systems). Guess what the intuitive action was: Replace the "Memory Protect Board" - which n e v e r fixed the problem. So digging into the technology it became clear, that the Memory Protect Board in these cases had only fulfilled its duty: protect the memory below the fence register from some other piece of hardware (usually a processor or DMA-board) running havoc in memory. That learning stuck ... Kind regards, Gottfried _____ Gottfried Specht | Gottfried at specht-online.com | +49 211 151695?+49 151 2911 2915 -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Erik Baigar Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. Mai 2016 10:36 An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Betreff: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? On Wed, 4 May 2016, Gottfried Specht wrote: > I'm not sure whether it qualifies for your full list, but the HP2100A > (that came out in 1971) had a "Memory Protect" hardware that Hi Gottfried, thanks for the excellent answer - yes I think this is exactly what matches my specification! Thanks. It is really astonishing how many people know a lot on various machines which is really great. I suspected that HP had something, too. > Fence Register: Set under program control; memory below fence is protected. This is a clever and somewhat outstanding feature - most others use protection on basis of blocks ar abuse the virtual memory for the purpose ;-) Best regards, Erik. > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Erik > Baigar > Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Mai 2016 17:53 > An: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Betreff: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? > > > Dear Experts, > > during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: > What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered > memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: > > - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) > - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) > - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be > set up individually. > - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. > - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the > memory and IO ranges must exist. > > I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising the IO- and memory accesses. > > My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g. > for safety critical applications... > > Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. > > Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era having someting similar? > > Erik. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 5 14:45:33 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 12:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572B8418.7070405@sydex.com> References: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> <572B8418.7070405@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> Wasn't minicomputer really a marketing term, anyway? Suits and all? > On Thu, 5 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, it was the sixties, after all. We all forget "midicomputer". :) We try to. My sexist memories of miniskirts are what lets me tolerate the marketing silliness behind the name "minicomputer". Mmmmm...miniskirts From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu May 5 14:50:43 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 15:50:43 -0400 Subject: AW: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <01a401d1a6ff$c13125f0$439371d0$@t-online.de> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> <01a401d1a6ff$c13125f0$439371d0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: On 2016-05-05 2:55 PM, Gottfried Specht wrote: > Thanks, Erik. > > How do I remember this ca. 40 years later? > > Well, while servicing these systems they would frequently stop with a "Memory Protect Error" (various Operating Systems). > > Guess what the intuitive action was: Replace the "Memory Protect Board" - which n e v e r fixed the problem. > > So digging into the technology it became clear, that the Memory Protect Board in these cases had only fulfilled its duty: protect the memory below the fence register from some other piece of hardware (usually a processor or DMA-board) running havoc in memory. That learning stuck ... Well, at least the directive wasn't "remove the Memory Protect board"? :-) --Toby > > Kind regards, > Gottfried > _____ > Gottfried Specht | Gottfried at specht-online.com | +49 211 151695?+49 151 2911 2915 > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Erik Baigar > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. Mai 2016 10:36 > An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Betreff: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? > > > > On Wed, 4 May 2016, Gottfried Specht wrote: > >> I'm not sure whether it qualifies for your full list, but the HP2100A >> (that came out in 1971) had a "Memory Protect" hardware that > ... From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu May 5 14:56:17 2016 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 19:56:17 +0000 Subject: _Processor_ magazine/newsprint? Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BDF8EDA3F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Are there any archived issues of _Processor_ from the 80's or early 90's, online anywhere? I seem to recall it went through at least one major printing format change (from newsprint to cheap bound magazine or the other way around). It sometimes had articles but was mostly ads from second-hand minicomputer vendors. Most of what I remember was DEC-aftermarket of course, but there was also overlap with DG, IBM aftermarket, various office machines, and later PC-clones and Sun stuff. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 5 16:01:31 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 15:01:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Paranoia (was Re: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx)) In-Reply-To: References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Erik Baigar wrote: > One does not really want to know what is possible (and done) today - > where there is no need to dig tunnels any more ;-) I don't really want to know because it'd probably be dangerous to know such things. So, I heartily agree. What I figure is that "they" (the NSA, CIA, gubment, whatever) have probably all the capabilities that were hinted at in the Snowden files, plus a few that were beyond his sight. However, it's a fairly squishy bunch of speculation at this point. The great thing is that I'm so dull nowadays, anyone who spies on me will simply be bored to death. So, that's my secret defense. My paranoia is really for the *future*: * Phones have already been used as wireless listening devices, so have "smart" televisions. I assume this will be new normal. Devices will start not only listening, but doing speech-to-text conversion and reacting to certain phrases etc.. If you can blackmail people by encrypting their data, then they will soon do it with audio clips of folks saying potentially embarrassing things. (ie.. you ring buffer the audio so if your T2S engine detects something potentially juicy, you save the preceding 2-3 minutes of audio.) * Too many devices come with cameras (phones come to mind first, but tablets etc..). These cameras supposedly have software controls but methinks those are oft easily bypassed. If one was to create an algorithm to detect a naked person (probably already patented), then next we'll get blackmailed with naked pictures because we left the phone in bathroom while taking a shower, et al. * I remember back in the day when folks would worry about tty security and how various secure applications would handle input and output buffering from the keyboard. Now, that type of thing is soooo far beneath abstraction layers galore I'd despair of _ever_ securing it. Complexity is the enemy of security. * GPS and "location based services" are already a big juicy target, but imagine what you could do with a little AI. Imagine some group like the East German Stazi with that kind of power. "Ah, vee see that you left a political rally and went to a hardware store. You were buying materials for weapons weren't you? Admit it. Why cannot you sign the papers old man? " Then there is the potential for catching cheating spouses. I'd posit this can be done (somewhat in some cases) via algorithms on your phone. Imagine what people would pay then... -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 5 16:04:00 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 15:04:00 -0600 (MDT) Subject: _Processor_ magazine/newsprint? In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BDF8EDA3F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BDF8EDA3F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Are there any archived issues of _Processor_ from the 80's or early > 90's, online anywhere? That sounds really interesting. If you find a source, I hope you will share. -Swift From scaron at diablonet.net Thu May 5 16:06:39 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 17:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: _Processor_ magazine/newsprint? In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BDF8EDA3F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Thu, 5 May 2016, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Are there any archived issues of _Processor_ from the 80's or early >> 90's, online anywhere? > > That sounds really interesting. If you find a source, I hope you will > share. > > -Swift > Ah, I got my start in the industry working at a repair shop and I remember that we got Processor. It indeed contained plenty of interesting ads from vendors of secondhand mini and midrange equipment. I'm not aware of any copies that have been preserved ... I kind of miss thumbing through it, like Computer Shopper -- remember that behemoth? :O Best, Sean From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 5 16:19:51 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 15:19:51 -0600 (MDT) Subject: _Processor_ magazine/newsprint? In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BDF8EDA3F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > I kind of miss thumbing through it, like Computer Shopper -- remember > that behemoth? :O I used to trek to the public library in a little town of 800 folks. The library was about the size of my living room. However, they got Byte and Computer Shopper. I remember one of the librarian ladies who volunteered there coming up to me once and asking "How can you sit and look at these magazines for so long?" That was the same place where I'd go transcribe BASIC programs out of magazines and books to see if I could figure out if there was any way on $diety's green earth we they'd run on my pathetic Timex Sinclair (but hey, I had the 16k RAM pack!) Then I'd go home, find out the code wouldn't run, then peek/poke my way to fixing it. I think I still have a bowling game I "ported". The good side of that now-seemingly-pathetic situation with books and magazines communicating the critical bits to learn was this: 1. It was easier to concentrate. There wasn't always a web browser or game client beckoning me away to fun-distracted-time-wasting-land. 2. Magazines made a nice self-contained little package ("issues") so they are great sources for nostalgia. They are almost little time capsules. The nearly immutable nature of the format gives an interesting perspective. 3. I explain print media to my (much) younger brothers like this: Imagine a screen that is super-super-cheap, doesn't ever run low on power, has a _killer_ refresh rate (none, it's static), is so thin and light you can carry thousands of them at once, has almost unlimited resolution, and has a shelf-life probably 2x-3x that of the electronic devices they describe. Ie.. the "physicality" of print is worth something to me. 4. Plus, close to 100% of the content is usually somewhat vetted (well maybe not the adverts as much). It's not (usually) just some 13 year old punk spouting off on reddit etc.. -Swift From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu May 5 20:47:01 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 21:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > HP-HIL uses what *should* be a pretty basic serial protocol with available d$ I haven't, but my own tendency would be to build a UART from a clock generator (divided down) and some shift registers for the hardware side of it, then add some logic for the host interface - I might use a 115200 serial port or I might use a parallel port, I'm not sure. I would not mess with things like Arduinos. I would prefer a bunch of TTL for multiple reasons: (1) because I already have it; (2) because I understand it better and thus can build and repair it better; (3) it is likely to be better in a bunch of respects - faster, lower power, maybe even cheaper, etc. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu May 5 21:25:53 2016 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 04:25:53 +0200 Subject: Crippled connectivity [was Re: FidoNet ....show] In-Reply-To: <201605050121.VAA03917@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> <20160503233059.GA30644@tau1.ceti.pl> <20160504214740.GA4612@tau1.ceti.pl> <201605050121.VAA03917@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160506022553.GA5812@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 09:21:18PM -0400, Mouse wrote: [...] > Sure you can tunnel; you just have to initiate the tunnel connection > from the inside. I too have a host (at work) that's behind double NAT; [...] > > Of course, this needs a friendly host on the outside. In my case, I > find that cost well worth paying.... Sure, with a friendly frontend one can do plenty. I am actually doing such tunnel on a daily basis, just am not charming enough to have custom built server demon installed in my name :-) (and no port forwarding either). But I think there is no particular need for me to perform such sophisticated tricks, like maybe editing ssh to concoct a demon forwarding traffic to-fro my home server. It is of course fine thing to do, but also time consuming a bit. And I think in maybe not very long time IPv6 will be very hard to ignore by ISPs like mine. Right now, they are selling from their IPv4 pool, while they can. Later, either they will switch to giving real IPv6 addresses by default, or maybe someone else will. In the meantime, I may have fun with other stuff. There is more than I can play with. Just one I try to find time for: PDP8 assembler - I know it is so small it could probably become my first memorized assembler ever, including octal patterns, and yet I have other things to do that are a bit more important. Why would I fight a problem that is doomed to go away if I wait just a little bit more? Just thinking out loud. But thanks for suggestions, always welcomed. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From lyndon at orthanc.ca Thu May 5 21:40:09 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 19:40:09 -0700 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> On 2016-05-05 6:47 PM, Mouse wrote: > faster, lower power, maybe > even cheaper, etc. TTL could never claim "lower power" :-) From earl at retrobits.com Thu May 5 16:35:07 2016 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 14:35:07 -0700 Subject: Release Notes for version 6.5 of TSX-Plus... In-Reply-To: <20160504114548.6789d2aa@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20160504114548.6789d2aa@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I just received from S&H a PDF copy of the TSX 6.50 Release Notes - and > Jay has posted it to the http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org website. > > Lots of interesting/helpful information for all you TSX-Plus buffs... > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > > ?Lyle, so many thanks to both you and Jay for this effort on TSX Plus. Cheers! - Earl ? From wsudol at freedom.com Thu May 5 16:35:20 2016 From: wsudol at freedom.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 21:35:20 +0000 Subject: _Processor_ magazine/newsprint? In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BDF8EDA3F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> , Message-ID: Try Here. They have copies going back to @ 2004 https://archive.org/details/processor_newspaper -- Wayne Sudol Riverside Press-Enterprise A Digital First Media Newspaper 1-951-368-9945 ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Swift Griggs Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 2:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: _Processor_ magazine/newsprint? On Thu, 5 May 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > I kind of miss thumbing through it, like Computer Shopper -- remember > that behemoth? :O I used to trek to the public library in a little town of 800 folks. The library was about the size of my living room. However, they got Byte and Computer Shopper. I remember one of the librarian ladies who volunteered there coming up to me once and asking "How can you sit and look at these magazines for so long?" That was the same place where I'd go transcribe BASIC programs out of magazines and books to see if I could figure out if there was any way on $diety's green earth we they'd run on my pathetic Timex Sinclair (but hey, I had the 16k RAM pack!) Then I'd go home, find out the code wouldn't run, then peek/poke my way to fixing it. I think I still have a bowling game I "ported". The good side of that now-seemingly-pathetic situation with books and magazines communicating the critical bits to learn was this: 1. It was easier to concentrate. There wasn't always a web browser or game client beckoning me away to fun-distracted-time-wasting-land. 2. Magazines made a nice self-contained little package ("issues") so they are great sources for nostalgia. They are almost little time capsules. The nearly immutable nature of the format gives an interesting perspective. 3. I explain print media to my (much) younger brothers like this: Imagine a screen that is super-super-cheap, doesn't ever run low on power, has a _killer_ refresh rate (none, it's static), is so thin and light you can carry thousands of them at once, has almost unlimited resolution, and has a shelf-life probably 2x-3x that of the electronic devices they describe. Ie.. the "physicality" of print is worth something to me. 4. Plus, close to 100% of the content is usually somewhat vetted (well maybe not the adverts as much). It's not (usually) just some 13 year old punk spouting off on reddit etc.. -Swift From tsw-cc at johana.com Thu May 5 21:40:27 2016 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 02:40:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1355175801.159417.1462502427540.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Request for information about a Facit 4070. Yes, it can be hooked up to a parallel port interface. It takes a single 74LS00 chip to generate the proper signals, and the ACK signals. I did it in a simple jumper wire block (it has a male and female connector along with a jumper field. At the moment I have lost my documentation, but I have a working unit ready to be dissected to produce the proper diagram (it may take a while). I have connected it to a "real" and a USB parallel port and used direct writes to the parallel port device under Linux with no modification. Also if you are interested, I have a program that sends out block letters to be punched on the tape (along with leader). The letters are 5x7 and the 8th is the descender for lower case letters. The various docs for the 4070 are on Bitsavers, and you want to be sure that the "option" board just has jumpers on it (as it comes from the factory). From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu May 5 22:17:39 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 23:17:39 -0400 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface References: <1355175801.159417.1462502427540.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <80C6A78FB19849E4A81366DF1B4A3B9C@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Watson" To: Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 10:40 PM Subject: Re: Facit 4070 to PC interface > Request for information about a Facit 4070. ... > Also if you are interested, I have a program that sends out block letters to be punched on the tape (along with leader). The letters are 5x7 and the 8th is the descender for lower case letters. --------------- Hi Tom, My perfs aren't Facits but I'd be interested in looking at your program all the same; what's it run on/written in? TIA, mike From mattislind at gmail.com Fri May 6 02:19:15 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 09:19:15 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: Has anyone dumped the microcode of the PDP-11/05? I am looking into a CPU board pair that are not behaving that well. The only switch that does anything is the START switch. The rest is doing nothing. The CPU clock is stopped. When tracing the microprogram flow it looks very suspicious. Comparing the same sequence with a better working pair reveal a few differences. All these can be narrowed down to one single PROM chip. It doesn't look like it is something else that is wire-ored onto the micor address bus since the enable signals for all those are inactive. And one signal is already low so wire-ORing would not change it. I would need a dump of the chips or at least A04A2 / E102 on the Control board. There are microcode listings in the manual but they need to be treated to get into a dump. So if someone already have a dump that would be highly appreciated. /Mattis From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri May 6 03:39:22 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 04:39:22 -0400 Subject: The Radio Boys and Girls: Radio, Telegraph, Telephone and Wireless Adventures f Message-ID: <203e6c.7f6d94e2.445db23a@aol.com> Before there were books of kids doing thins with computers there was: The Radio Boys and Girls: Radio, Telegraph, Telephone and Wireless Adventures for Juvenile Readers, 1890-1945 - A View Though Literature By Mike Adams A Review By Ed Sharpe Director and Lead Archivist for Southwest Museum of Engineering Communications and Computation Glendale Daily Planet / KKAT-IPTV Read At http://glendaledailyplanet.com/the-radio-boys-and-girls-radio-telegraph-tele phone-and-wireless-adventu-p570-154.htm From anders at abc80.net Fri May 6 02:47:47 2016 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 09:47:47 +0200 Subject: AJRLADO diskless controller test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I tried to run the diskless controller test on my PDP8/A. It fails before any tests has been executed. I suspect that my RL8A controller is broken. The CPU tests and the memory tests works fine. The test stopped @ address 5713 (display shows 5714), MD buff = 7402, AC = 0 Does anybody have the source code to this test? Earlier someone got the test instructions photographed from microfishie. The complete story is that the machine worked just fine, booted OS/8. Then I changed the CPU from KK8A -> KK8E. The KK8E had some problems, but works fine now. But now the machine doesn't boot OS/8 with any of the CPU's. The diskless controller test stops at the same location with any CPU. /Anders From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 6 08:26:41 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 09:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > Has anyone dumped the microcode of the PDP-11/05? > ... > When tracing the microprogram flow it looks very suspicious. Comparing > the same sequence with a better working pair reveal a few differences. > All these can be narrowed down to one single PROM chip. Josh had an 11/05 that had a uROM fail, and he had to blow a new one (IIRC he sent in a report, it's in the list archive). I'm not sure if it's the same one as the one you need, but if his post doesn't give the chip ID, no doubt he can let us know. > There are microcode listings in the manual but they need to be treated > to get into a dump. Which is exactly what Josh did. Speaking of which, is there any chance we can get those machine-readable listings online? I can host them with my other DEC material, and I can also put them in the Computer History wiki. Noel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri May 6 08:39:11 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 09:39:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <201605061339.JAA23004@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> faster, lower power, maybe even cheaper, etc. > TTL could never claim "lower power" :-) If there's little enough of it it can! (Not strictly TTL, but much the same technology - I once built a timer with a 555 and some discretes and cut the power draw by about an order of magnitude as compared to a small CPU - Arduino or the like - doing the same job.) Would it be lower power in this case? I don't know; I haven't built, nor even designed in detail, either version of the circuit. And, come to think of it, while not strictly TTL, there are TTL-compatible CMOS families, like 74HCT and 74ALS, that almost certainly would be lower-power. While they aren't classic tech, the question asked about using modern tech to interface to classic HP-HIL, so they may be admissible here. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri May 6 08:50:39 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 15:50:39 +0200 Subject: Pics of a FASTRAND and other fun things. Message-ID: <20160506135038.GB12489@Update.UU.SE> Hi I follow a facebook group of Swedes mainly interrested in micros of the 80:ies. While that is fun in it's own right I recently decided to ask what "heavy iron", if any, the members might possess. I was pleasantly surprised of what surfaced. I though that some of you might also enjoy this, so here is the pick of the litter (reproduced with permission). A GE/PAC 4060 Drum memory, from person A: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/ge_pac_4060_drum_1.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/ge_pac_4060_drum_2.jpg Univac artefacts, from person B: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/FASTRAND_III.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/FASTRAND_III_2.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/FASTRAND_III_3.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/1701_memory.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/saab_univac_poster.jpg The following is the teletype that I believe must come from a UNIVAC 418 or 1106 console desk. It looks like a model 28. Can anyone confirm? http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/teletypeXX.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/418-II.jpg DIAB racks from person C, probably only interesting for Swedish unix buffs. DIAB machines are somewhat uncommon and the rack versions even more so. http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/diab_racks.jpg Have a nice weekend, Pontus. From erik at baigar.de Fri May 6 08:45:55 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 15:45:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: AW: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <01a401d1a6ff$c13125f0$439371d0$@t-online.de> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> <01a401d1a6ff$c13125f0$439371d0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Gottfried Specht wrote: > How do I remember this ca. 40 years later? [snip] > Well, while servicing these systems they would frequently stop with a > "Memory Protect Error" (various Operating Systems). Guess what the > intuitive action was: Replace the "Memory Protect Board" - which n e v e > r fixed the problem. So digging into the technology it became clear, > that the Memory Protect Board in these cases had only fulfilled its > duty: protect the memory below the fence register from some other piece > of hardware (usually a processor or DMA-board) running havoc in memory. Essentially the board did what it was supposed to do! That is exactly what the APM is good for in my Rolm 1602: As these machines where used in applcations where errors in hardware or software running havoc would have resulted in really severe problems these where a good idea ;-) Have a nice weekend, Erik. > On Wed, 4 May 2016, Gottfried Specht wrote: > >> I'm not sure whether it qualifies for your full list, but the HP2100A >> (that came out in 1971) had a "Memory Protect" hardware that > > Hi Gottfried, > > thanks for the excellent answer - yes I think this is exactly what matches my specification! Thanks. > It is really astonishing how many people know a lot on various machines which is really great. I suspected that HP had something, too. > >> Fence Register: Set under program control; memory below fence is protected. > > This is a clever and somewhat outstanding feature - most others use protection on basis of blocks ar abuse the virtual memory for the purpose ;-) > > Best regards, > > Erik. > >> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Erik >> Baigar >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Mai 2016 17:53 >> An: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Betreff: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? >> >> >> Dear Experts, >> >> during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: >> What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered >> memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: >> >> - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) >> - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) >> - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be >> set up individually. >> - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. >> - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the >> memory and IO ranges must exist. >> >> I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising the IO- and memory accesses. >> >> My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g. >> for safety critical applications... >> >> Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. >> >> Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era having someting similar? >> >> Erik. >> > From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri May 6 09:29:08 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 16:29:08 +0200 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 May 2016 at 10:41, Mattis Lind wrote: > What about the Norsk Data series of machines, NORD-1, NORD-10 etc. > > The NORD-10 had memory protection and paging. Circa 1973. According to the > wiki page the NORD-1 had an option to provide virtual memory. The wiki page > claim the NORD-1 to be the first mini to have virtual memory (1969). I > cannot really tell if this is true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord-1 > > /Mattis The NORD-1 (developed 1967, sold from 1968) was a real-time 16-bit minicomputer with up to 64kw of core memory. The NORD-1 reference manual describes the memory protection system this way: "Both real-time and background programs can be run concurrently in a NORD-1 system since the real-time program can be protected against alteration. The optional features guarantees that protected areas of memory cannot be written into. The protection feature also prevents the execution of instructions that could initiate I/O transfers or change the status of the protection system." I believe this refers to, or is related to the optional virtual memory system. And more so this passage: "The NORD-1 dynamic core allocation system (paging system) is an automatic address interpretation system which allows programs to be written for 64K virtual core, with only parts of the program in physical core at a given time[..] The page table is kept in core. For each memory reference there is an automatic hardware address translation via an automatic page table reference.[..]" And it goes on to describing page fault interrupts, and privileged instructions. But although it had privileged and non-privileged instructions from the beginning, the NORD-1 did not acquire a time-sharing operating system until after mid-1971, and that was only a proof-of-concept version. It was announced in 1972 and became a product in 1973. The user- and superuser separation was implemented using the already existing instruction type separation, as mentioned. In 1973 the NORD-10 appeared as well, which fully covers the OP's requirements. The NORD-1 of 1968, or NORD-1 with VM of 1969 only partly covers it, as the time sharing operating system was not yet in place at that time. From erik at baigar.de Fri May 6 09:59:12 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 16:59:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 May 2016, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 5 May 2016 at 10:41, Mattis Lind wrote: [snip] > minicomputer with up to 64kw of core memory. The NORD-1 reference [snip] > alteration. The optional features guarantees that protected areas of > memory cannot be written into. The protection feature also prevents > the execution of instructions that could initiate I/O transfers or > change the status of the protection system." OK, this machine also matches the requirements of my initial question - great. So there quite some machine offering such features well before 1975... Thanks for citing from the reference manual! Erik. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri May 6 10:16:49 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 11:16:49 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > I would need a dump of the chips or at least A04A2 / E102 on the Control board. Can you clarify? Is this a typo? Bill From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 6 10:46:54 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 06 May 2016 10:46:54 -0500 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> On 05/05/2016 09:40 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > On 2016-05-05 6:47 PM, Mouse wrote: >> faster, lower power, maybe >> even cheaper, etc. > > TTL could never claim "lower power" :-) > Hmmm, I don't know. (Don't remember the earlier part of discussion.) Some discrete transistor implementations were actually pretty high power, they ran off 12 V rails or even more. I know some old computer I poked into (SEL 12-bit, maybe) must have been using 24 V rails, they had 2 W load resistors on the transistor collectors, and the boards were badly burned around those resistors! Some systems use a variant of ECL, which of course really burned power, too. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 6 10:50:59 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 06 May 2016 10:50:59 -0500 Subject: Pics of a FASTRAND and other fun things. In-Reply-To: <20160506135038.GB12489@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160506135038.GB12489@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <572CBD63.2040004@pico-systems.com> On 05/06/2016 08:50 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > The following is the teletype that I believe must come from a UNIVAC 418 > or 1106 console desk. It looks like a model 28. Can anyone confirm? > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/teletypeXX.jpg > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/418-II.jpg > > The printer frame in the back looks VERY much like a Teletype model 19. The keyboard in front is reminiscent of a model 15/19 keyboard, but has 4 rows, so it can't be from a 5-bit teletype. Jon From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Fri May 6 10:55:50 2016 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:55:50 -0500 Subject: Pics of a FASTRAND and other fun things. In-Reply-To: <572CBD63.2040004@pico-systems.com> References: <20160506135038.GB12489@Update.UU.SE> <572CBD63.2040004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/06/2016 08:50 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> The following is the teletype that I believe must come from a UNIVAC 418 >> or 1106 console desk. It looks like a model 28. Can anyone confirm? >> >> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/teletypeXX.jpg >> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/418-II.jpg >> >> >> The printer frame in the back looks VERY much like a Teletype model 19. > The keyboard in front is reminiscent of a model 15/19 keyboard, but has 4 > rows, so it can't be from a 5-bit teletype. > > Jon > I believe that's a model 35 (8-level version of the 28). -C From derschjo at gmail.com Fri May 6 11:09:07 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 09:09:07 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <572CC1A3.1070909@gmail.com> On 5/6/16 6:26 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Mattis Lind > > > Has anyone dumped the microcode of the PDP-11/05? > > ... > > When tracing the microprogram flow it looks very suspicious. Comparing > > the same sequence with a better working pair reveal a few differences. > > All these can be narrowed down to one single PROM chip. > > Josh had an 11/05 that had a uROM fail, and he had to blow a new one (IIRC he > sent in a report, it's in the list archive). I'm not sure if it's the same one > as the one you need, but if his post doesn't give the chip ID, no doubt he can > let us know. I had two uCode ROMs fail, it was just that fun. Unfortunately they were at E114 and E102 (A11A2 and A20A2), not E103 so my transcriptions aren't going to help. I've put them up at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/pdp1105/ucode if anyone happens to need them, this includes the raw binary as well as the transcription I did. I had my wife double-check my work (she's very patient with me) and the PROMs seem to work fine (all diags pass) so I'm pretty sure they're correct. Note that the order of the data in the A11A2 PROM is reversed from the engineering drawing transcription; the address lines to that PROM are active low (discovered this the hard way.) - Josh > > > There are microcode listings in the manual but they need to be treated > > to get into a dump. > > Which is exactly what Josh did. > > Speaking of which, is there any chance we can get those machine-readable > listings online? I can host them with my other DEC material, and I can also > put them in the Computer History wiki. > > Noel > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 6 11:44:37 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:44:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can Message-ID: If you care, you might want to check out: ftp://ftp.hp.com:/pub/alphaserver/firmware I'm always updating firmware on older alphas and I've noticed this site has undergone some changes lately. I've also noticed that HP's web sites have been absolutely trashed for a couple of years now. However, now many alpha related searches return 0 results on most of their portals. When you do find something, it's often a dead link. Many of the Tru64 pages are all a broken link, broken CSS, shambles. Anyhow, my trust in HP is at an all-time-low (more than I even knew was possible after I got my whopping $26 dollar settlement for them ripping folks off on ink cartridges and getting class-action-sued for it). Unsurprisingly, they can't even run a website anymore, and even the FTP site seems to be feeling the shake up (directories moving around, things obviously undergoing some major changes). So, you might want to grab whatever you need off the post-Fiorina walking corpse of HP before they go full zombie and eat their own brains and lose everything. There are patches, firmware etc... many things their management would probably remove if they were literate enough to know they still had them online in an undamaged form (folks so often forget about FTP). -Swift From jason at textfiles.com Fri May 6 11:50:40 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 12:50:40 -0400 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For general noting, we did a drop-dead backup of FTP.HP.COM in 2013 as part of a recognition that FTP sites were mostly being set adrift and were often unique sources of material. https://archive.org/details/ftp-ftp.hp.com_ftp1 (2013 Backup) https://archive.org/details/ftp-ftp.hp.com_pub-2013-10 (Alternate Backup) On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > If you care, you might want to check out: > ftp://ftp.hp.com:/pub/alphaserver/firmware > > I'm always updating firmware on older alphas and I've noticed this site > has undergone some changes lately. I've also noticed that HP's web sites > have been absolutely trashed for a couple of years now. However, now many > alpha related searches return 0 results on most of their portals. When you > do find something, it's often a dead link. Many of the Tru64 pages are all > a broken link, broken CSS, shambles. > > Anyhow, my trust in HP is at an all-time-low (more than I even knew was > possible after I got my whopping $26 dollar settlement for them ripping > folks off on ink cartridges and getting class-action-sued for it). > Unsurprisingly, they can't even run a website anymore, and even the FTP > site seems to be feeling the shake up (directories moving around, things > obviously undergoing some major changes). So, you might want to grab > whatever you need off the post-Fiorina walking corpse of HP before they go > full zombie and eat their own brains and lose everything. There are > patches, firmware etc... many things their management would probably > remove if they were literate enough to know they still had them online in > an undamaged form (folks so often forget about FTP). > > -Swift > From mattislind at gmail.com Fri May 6 12:03:44 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 19:03:44 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: fredag 6 maj 2016 skrev william degnan : > > I would need a dump of the chips or at least A04A2 / E102 on the Control > board. > > Can you clarify? Is this a typo? > > No, it is not a typo. Why do you think it is typo? http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/1105_RevAH_Engineering_Drawings_Jul76.pdf Page 91. M7261. E102 / A04A2. When comparing my chip, which I removed and dumped, it is very different from the listing. Maybe half the chip differs. The problems in the microcode flow definetely matches the contents of the dump. I am getting a little worried that there are different versions of the microcode. Anyone knows of different versions? /Mattis Bill > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 6 12:11:32 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >> TTL could never claim "lower power" :-) than vacuum tubes ("valves")? From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 6 12:13:38 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 11:13:38 -0600 (MDT) Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 May 2016, Jason Scott wrote: > For general noting, we did a drop-dead backup of FTP.HP.COM in 2013 as > part of a recognition that FTP sites were mostly being set adrift and > were often unique sources of material. Right on! Thanks for that. > https://archive.org/details/ftp-ftp.hp.com_ftp1 (2013 Backup) > https://archive.org/details/ftp-ftp.hp.com_pub-2013-10 (Alternate Backup) Killer. You guys have some great stuff there (looking at all the other sites)! I know there are some out there (siliconbunny comes to mind) but did you folks happen to mirror reality.sgi.com by chance? -Swift From mattislind at gmail.com Fri May 6 12:16:24 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 19:16:24 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <572CC1A3.1070909@gmail.com> References: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <572CC1A3.1070909@gmail.com> Message-ID: fredag 6 maj 2016 skrev Josh Dersch : > On 5/6/16 6:26 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> > From: Mattis Lind >> >> > Has anyone dumped the microcode of the PDP-11/05? >> > ... >> > When tracing the microprogram flow it looks very suspicious. >> Comparing >> > the same sequence with a better working pair reveal a few >> differences. >> > All these can be narrowed down to one single PROM chip. >> >> Josh had an 11/05 that had a uROM fail, and he had to blow a new one >> (IIRC he >> sent in a report, it's in the list archive). I'm not sure if it's the >> same one >> as the one you need, but if his post doesn't give the chip ID, no doubt >> he can >> let us know. >> > I had two uCode ROMs fail, it was just that fun. Unfortunately they were > at E114 and E102 (A11A2 and A20A2), not E103 so my transcriptions aren't > going to help. Now this is confusing. Maybe this related to why Bill thought I made a typo. In the schematic I have which is the same as the one at bitsavers: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/1105_RevAH_Engineering_Drawings_Jul76.pdf E102 / A04A2, E112 / A10A2, E103 / A20A2 and E114 / A11A2. Are there plenty of different versions of PCB and microcode?? > > /Mattis From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 6 12:18:48 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 13:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160506171848.87F4518C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan >> I would need a dump of .. at least A04A2 / E102 on the Control board. > Can you clarify? Is this a typo? No, there are two different major versions of the M7261 Control board; see http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#CPU_board_versions A04A2 is inded E102 on the later major version of the board; on the earlier version (prints for that version are in the GT40 prints online, pg. 162 and on) A04A2 is E92. Speaking of the two major versions, though, I wonder if the ucode in the two versions is identical? The uROM chip numbers should give it, (if they are the same on both versions, albeit in different locations on the board), but I have yet to check. Does anyone happen to know? Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri May 6 12:26:21 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 13:26:21 -0400 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> > On May 6, 2016, at 1:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> TTL could never claim "lower power" :-) > > than vacuum tubes ("valves")? I think a well chosen hearing aid tube can outperform a classic (not L or LS) 7400 series IC. paul From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 6 12:31:35 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:31:35 -0700 Subject: Pics of a FASTRAND and other fun things. In-Reply-To: <572CBD63.2040004@pico-systems.com> References: <20160506135038.GB12489@Update.UU.SE> <572CBD63.2040004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <2E26ED6C-9203-452D-8B3C-15B68CE830D4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-06, at 8:50 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/06/2016 08:50 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> The following is the teletype that I believe must come from a UNIVAC 418 >> or 1106 console desk. It looks like a model 28. Can anyone confirm? >> >> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/teletypeXX.jpg >> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/418-II.jpg >> >> > The printer frame in the back looks VERY much like a Teletype model 19. The keyboard in front is reminiscent of a model 15/19 keyboard, but has 4 rows, so it can't be from a 5-bit teletype. The model 19 (also 15) printer is a type-basket design (akin to a typewriter). The pictured unit uses a type-box printhead like that of the model 28, but given the 4-row keyboard and the application, Cory likely has it right as a model 35 printer. I think you'd have to see the decoding mechanics on the right side of the printer to confirm 35 vs. 28. From mattislind at gmail.com Fri May 6 13:18:14 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 20:18:14 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <20160506171848.87F4518C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160506171848.87F4518C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: fredag 6 maj 2016 skrev Noel Chiappa : > > From: William Degnan > > >> I would need a dump of .. at least A04A2 / E102 on the Control > board. > > > Can you clarify? Is this a typo? > > No, there are two different major versions of the M7261 Control board; see > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#CPU_board_versions > > A04A2 is inded E102 on the later major version of the board; on the earlier > version (prints for that version are in the GT40 prints online, pg. 162 and > on) A04A2 is E92. > > Thanks Noel for sorting this out. I started to get confused. The etch revision is 'F' on my boards. > Speaking of the two major versions, though, I wonder if the ucode in the > two > versions is identical? The uROM chip numbers should give it, (if they are > the > same on both versions, albeit in different locations on the board), but I > have > yet to check. Does anyone happen to know? > > Noel > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 6 13:44:12 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 11:44:12 -0700 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> On 5/6/16 9:44 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > If you care, you might want to check out: > ftp://ftp.hp.com:/pub/alphaserver/firmware > Either I missed it when I wget'ed it a year or two ago, but I was looking for Compaq Portable 486 softpaqs recently, slurped all of them from ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/ last week, and it ended up being almost 2tb with a lot more earlier ones available now than the last time I tried it From rollerton at gmail.com Fri May 6 12:48:29 2016 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:48:29 -0700 Subject: Memory and I/O protection on the 940 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've always wanted to know more about the SDS 940 project since its a relative to my SDS Sigma 9. If you know of any of the papers on the hardware, and OS they created I'd appreciate some pointers to where I could read them. Thanks! On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > Al mentioned the 940 so I thought I would fill in the details: > > Lichtenberger and Pirtle extended the hardware to include a page map: 14 > bits of VA was divided into 3 bits of page # and 11 bits of offset. The 8 > pages were held in 2 x 24 bit words divided into a 8 x 6 bit page numbers. > The high order bit of the mapped page number served as the Read Only bit. > This meant that "subsystems" (a.k.a. applications) could be shared between > users. > > Additionally, the instruction set was protected against users with specific > prohibition against using the I/O instructions. > > This was described in FJCC 1965 with modifications done in 1964. > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 6 13:47:50 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 11:47:50 -0700 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> References: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> On 5/6/16 11:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Either I missed it when I wget'ed it a year or two ago, but I was looking for > Compaq Portable 486 softpaqs recently, slurped all of them from ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/ > last week, and it ended up being almost 2tb with a lot more earlier ones available now > than the last time I tried it > And if anyone cares, you can't create floppy images from the really old softpaqs on modern PCs. I ended up having to shuttle an IDE disk to the Portable 486 and run the image copy program on there From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 6 14:11:55 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 12:11:55 -0700 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <572CEC7B.3030502@sydex.com> On 05/06/2016 09:50 AM, Jason Scott wrote: > For general noting, we did a drop-dead backup of FTP.HP.COM in 2013 > as part of a recognition that FTP sites were mostly being set adrift > and were often unique sources of material. > > https://archive.org/details/ftp-ftp.hp.com_ftp1 (2013 Backup) > https://archive.org/details/ftp-ftp.hp.com_pub-2013-10 (Alternate > Backup) Thanks for that--I had an occasion to go searching for a Vectra VL600 BIOS image this past weekend and managed to luck out. But I'm not sanguine that HP will continue to host such old stuff. --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri May 6 15:54:45 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 13:54:45 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572B80B1.2070700@sydex.com> References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572ADA28.5060807@sydex.com> <572B7D9A.3080801@pico-systems.com> <572B80B1.2070700@sydex.com> Message-ID: <09D5D7C1-1808-456E-8490-4A974FDCE86F@gmail.com> > On May 5, 2016, at 10:19 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and, of course, the tabletop Univac 422. > --Chuck I had to look it up. What a sexy small machine, with its boards showing! http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102633139 From steven at malikoff.com Fri May 6 16:36:10 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 07:36:10 +1000 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <572CC1A3.1070909@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mattis wrote > In the schematic I have which is the same as the one at bitsavers: > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/1105_RevAH_Engineering_Drawings_Jul76.pdf > > E102 / A04A2, E112 / A10A2, E103 / A20A2 and E114 / A11A2. > > Are there plenty of different versions of PCB and microcode?? > >> >> > /Mattis When I recovered the Foxboro Fox 2 and waterlogged 11/05 on my recent road trip, I was lucky to find an original 11/05 print set dated 1973. For what it's worth, the microcode listing in my doc is Revision B and it is *exactly* the same printout as in the the Bitsavers doc Revision C except it is more legible and has fewer splotches and spots on it. The only other difference I can see is the Rev C listing has the 'digital' logo added to the page edges. By the way the above pdf is missing a page that is in my set, namely to do with the 5-1/4" height power supply (H726-B) pictures, as well as some other pages of the chassis, possibly more but I haven't gone through it that closely. Steve. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 6 17:32:25 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 18:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > Thanks Noel for sorting this out. Eh, de nada. But thank you. >> I wonder if the ucode in the two versions is identical? The uROM chip >> numbers should give it, (if they are the same on both versions, albeit >> in different locations on the board), but I have yet to check. Does >> anyone happen to know? OK, so the situation here is pretty complicated. To start with / make things worse, that CPU uses lots of PROMs. Lots and lots and lots and lots of PROMs. For the data paths board (M7260), both major versions appear to contain the same PROMs (going by the DEC part numbers), but the chip location (Exx) numbers are all different. For the control board (M7261), the C, E ('early' version) and F ('late' version) etch revisions each contain mostly the same PROMs, but apparently with slight differences between the sets of PROMs in each (as reflected in different DEC part numbers). For details see: http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Control_PROMs to which I have just added all the gory details. As to getting the contents of all of them dumped in machine-readable form - oi vey! >> on the earlier version (prints for that version are in the GT40 prints >> online It turns out that I have hard-copy prints for the "C" etch revision of the M7261, which do not yet appear to be online; the GT40 prints have the "E" etch revision. I will scan the pages for that revision of the board, and put them up 'soon'. (I'm not doing the whole print set, it's about 1" thick, and most of them are for other things anyway, like MM11-L memory, etc.) Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 6 18:40:10 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 00:40:10 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <990899515.640445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> <990899515.64 0445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: <016401d1a7f0$a0f0f2b0$e2d2d810$@ntlworld.com> I have been setting up a MAX232CPE to try to get serial output from the serial diagnostic port. Trouble is I am not sure which signal is the data signal. The one that is marked SROMCDAT in the technical manual does not appear to do anything when I look at it with the scope. Anyone know which is the right signal to monitor? Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 6 18:40:10 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 00:40:10 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <990899515.640445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> <990899515.64 0445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: <016401d1a7f0$a0f0f2b0$e2d2d810$@ntlworld.com> I have been setting up a MAX232CPE to try to get serial output from the serial diagnostic port. Trouble is I am not sure which signal is the data signal. The one that is marked SROMCDAT in the technical manual does not appear to do anything when I look at it with the scope. Anyone know which is the right signal to monitor? Thanks Rob From macro at linux-mips.org Fri May 6 19:09:31 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 01:09:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <016401d1a7f0$a0f0f2b0$e2d2d810$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> <990899515.64 0445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <016401d1a7f0$a0f0f2b0$e2d2d810$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have been setting up a MAX232CPE to try to get serial output from the > serial diagnostic port. Trouble is I am not sure which signal is the > data signal. The one that is marked SROMCDAT in the technical manual > does not appear to do anything when I look at it with the scope. Anyone > know which is the right signal to monitor? That pin is the Rx side or data input, so obviously you won't see anything interesting there. The Tx side or data output is on BSROMCLK. I'll send you a document page with conceptual schematics of the host side of the circuit; off the list as attachments are not allowed here I believe no matter how small. Maciej From mattislind at gmail.com Sat May 7 01:45:53 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 08:45:53 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > For the data paths board (M7260), both major versions appear to contain the > same PROMs (going by the DEC part numbers), but the chip location (Exx) > numbers are all different. > > For the control board (M7261), the C, E ('early' version) and F ('late' > version) etch revisions each contain mostly the same PROMs, but apparently > with slight differences between the sets of PROMs in each (as reflected in > different DEC part numbers). For details see: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Control_PROMs Thanks. The change of PROM on etch F also explain the note "Aux control is asserted one micro step earlier..." on page 91 in the schematic on bitsavers. Now I am convinced that if I program a new A04A2 PROM the machine should behave much better. The interesting is when comparing the bad chip with the list that approximately half of the nibbles are OK. Then the rest has mostly one or two changed bits. What are the failure modes of PROMs? BTW. The failing chip was yet another NS chip in plastic /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 6 14:21:59 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 12:21:59 -0700 Subject: Memory and I/O protection on the 940 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ba3f7be-e88d-23b6-d3c2-815fd7d6b424@bitsavers.org> On 5/6/16 10:48 AM, Robert Ollerton wrote: > I've always wanted to know more about the SDS 940 project since its a > relative to my SDS Sigma 9. If you know of any of the papers on the > hardware, and OS they created I'd appreciate some pointers to where I could > read them. Thanks! > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sds/9xx/940 http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tymshare/SDS_940/ and their 'second system' http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bcc/ there is a mostly working simulation in SIMH, but it hasn't been released yet From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri May 6 15:25:02 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 13:25:02 -0700 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: <1355175801.159417.1462502427540.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1355175801.159417.1462502427540.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1D237A67-BC58-405B-91B0-0D522E3C5D68@gmail.com> I have one of these Facit too waiting to be restored. I'd be interested in your program. Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 5, 2016, at 7:40 PM, Tom Watson wrote: > > Request for information about a Facit 4070. > > > Yes, it can be hooked up to a parallel port interface. It takes a single 74LS00 chip to generate the proper signals, and the ACK signals. I did it in a simple jumper wire block (it has a male and female connector along with a jumper field. > > At the moment I have lost my documentation, but I have a working unit ready to be dissected to produce the proper diagram (it may take a while). I have connected it to a "real" and a USB parallel port and used direct writes to the parallel port device under Linux with no modification. > > > Also if you are interested, I have a program that sends out block letters to be punched on the tape (along with leader). The letters are 5x7 and the 8th is the descender for lower case letters. > > The various docs for the 4070 are on Bitsavers, and you want to be sure that the "option" board just has jumpers on it (as it comes from the factory). From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 7 02:36:37 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 08:36:37 +0100 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> References: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <145501d1a833$30ba01b0$922e0510$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: 06 May 2016 19:48 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can > > > > On 5/6/16 11:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Either I missed it when I wget'ed it a year or two ago, but I was > > looking for Compaq Portable 486 softpaqs recently, slurped all of them > > from ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/ last week, and it ended up being > > almost 2tb with a lot more earlier ones available now than the last > > time I tried it > > > > And if anyone cares, you can't create floppy images from the really old > softpaqs on modern PCs. I ended up having to shuttle an IDE disk to the > Portable 486 and run the image copy program on there I managed to create Floppies from the IBM OS/2 disk images using DOSBOX. Might be worth a try with these. Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 7 04:48:49 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 10:48:49 +0100 Subject: Free to a Good Home - VAX 4000-105A in the UK Message-ID: <000001d1a845$a81a9820$f84fc860$@ntlworld.com> This one has a failed BCACHE, but I am told it will still boot and run VMS, albeit slowly. I have not tried this myself, but I have verified that it boots to the console. It is in a BA42B enclosure (i.e. desktop not rackmount). Is there any interest or should I just take out the bits I want from it and then throw it away? It is in Manchester, UK. I do occasionally travel to the East Midlands and to the Reading area though. Not keen on shipping it, but will do so if it means not throwing it away. The machine is free, any shipping would have to be paid for of course. Regards Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat May 7 05:07:34 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 11:07:34 +0100 Subject: Free to a Good Home - VAX 4000-105A in the UK In-Reply-To: <000001d1a845$a81a9820$f84fc860$@ntlworld.com> References: <000001d1a845$a81a9820$f84fc860$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <22da318c-f767-7f06-6b68-df49c7abc5e5@btinternet.com> Hi Rob How big is it ? I live in the Reading area Rod Smallwood On 07/05/2016 10:48, Robert Jarratt wrote: > This one has a failed BCACHE, but I am told it will still boot and run VMS, > albeit slowly. I have not tried this myself, but I have verified that it > boots to the console. It is in a BA42B enclosure (i.e. desktop not > rackmount). > > > > Is there any interest or should I just take out the bits I want from it and > then throw it away? > > > > It is in Manchester, UK. I do occasionally travel to the East Midlands and > to the Reading area though. Not keen on shipping it, but will do so if it > means not throwing it away. The machine is free, any shipping would have to > be paid for of course. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 7 07:40:01 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 13:40:01 +0100 Subject: Free to a Good Home - VAX 4000-105A in the UK In-Reply-To: <22da318c-f767-7f06-6b68-df49c7abc5e5@btinternet.com> References: <000001d1a845$a81a9820$f84fc860$@ntlworld.com> <22da318c-f767-7f06-6b68-df49c7abc5e5@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <002501d1a85d$92bb2c20$b8318460$@ntlworld.com> Hello Rod, It is 40x45x14cm in size. I will be in Reading next week (Thames Valley Park) and I could bring it with me. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: 07 May 2016 11:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Free to a Good Home - VAX 4000-105A in the UK > > Hi Rob > > How big is it ? I live in the Reading area > > Rod Smallwood > > > > On 07/05/2016 10:48, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > This one has a failed BCACHE, but I am told it will still boot and run > > VMS, albeit slowly. I have not tried this myself, but I have verified > > that it boots to the console. It is in a BA42B enclosure (i.e. desktop > > not rackmount). > > > > > > > > Is there any interest or should I just take out the bits I want from > > it and then throw it away? > > > > > > > > It is in Manchester, UK. I do occasionally travel to the East Midlands > > and to the Reading area though. Not keen on shipping it, but will do > > so if it means not throwing it away. The machine is free, any shipping > > would have to be paid for of course. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat May 7 08:02:02 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 14:02:02 +0100 Subject: Free to a Good Home - VAX 4000-105A in the UK In-Reply-To: <002501d1a85d$92bb2c20$b8318460$@ntlworld.com> References: <000001d1a845$a81a9820$f84fc860$@ntlworld.com> <22da318c-f767-7f06-6b68-df49c7abc5e5@btinternet.com> <002501d1a85d$92bb2c20$b8318460$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <6d072641-0e5b-b3dc-86f1-7031cc3bc54e@btinternet.com> The only day I can't do is Monday. (Hospital Appointment) Thames Valley Park Oracle or Fujitsu? Rod On 07/05/2016 13:40, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Hello Rod, > > It is 40x45x14cm in size. I will be in Reading next week (Thames Valley > Park) and I could bring it with me. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >> Smallwood >> Sent: 07 May 2016 11:08 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Free to a Good Home - VAX 4000-105A in the UK >> >> Hi Rob >> >> How big is it ? I live in the Reading area >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> >> On 07/05/2016 10:48, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>> This one has a failed BCACHE, but I am told it will still boot and run >>> VMS, albeit slowly. I have not tried this myself, but I have verified >>> that it boots to the console. It is in a BA42B enclosure (i.e. desktop >>> not rackmount). >>> >>> >>> >>> Is there any interest or should I just take out the bits I want from >>> it and then throw it away? >>> >>> >>> >>> It is in Manchester, UK. I do occasionally travel to the East Midlands >>> and to the Reading area though. Not keen on shipping it, but will do >>> so if it means not throwing it away. The machine is free, any shipping >>> would have to be paid for of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> >>> >>> Rob >>> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 7 09:50:52 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 10:50:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160507145052.3123318C0D9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff > I was lucky to find an original 11/05 print set dated 1973. For what > it's worth, the microcode listing in my doc is Revision B Do note that a lot of the PROMs on those boards aren't actually 'microcode', and aren't covered in that listing. For instance, on the M7261 (control) board, there are 7 which aren't 'microcode' (list drawn from the 11/05 article on the Computer History wiki): A01A2 = E12 = Bus Request -> Grant processing A02A2 = E30 = Internal address decode (first stage) A07A1 = E68 = Internal address decode (second stage) A09A1 = E69 = Internal address decode (second stage) A09A2 = E101 = Branch utest service A13A1 = E90 = Internal interrupt acknowledge A14A1* = E100 = Console switch control and 10 which are: A04A2 = E92 = Next instruction (high bits) A05A2 = E93 = Processor Status Word control A07A2* = E95 = Bus control A10A2 = E103 = Next instruction (low bits) A11A2 = E104 = ALU operation select A12A2 = E105 = Branch utest A13A2 = E106 = Multiplexor control A14A2 = E107 = Bus control A15A2 = E94 = ALU control A16A2 = E96 = Miscellaneous And I haven't included the 11 PROM chips on the M7260 (Data paths) board, none of which are 'microcode'. So those 'microcode' listings only cover about 1/3 of the PROM chips in the CPU; so one can't use just the microcode revision level to tell you what's what. E.g there are two chips different between the C and E etch levels of the M7261: A07A2 and A14A1 (marked with a '*' above); one is 'microcode', one isn't. BTW, when you say that the microcode listings in your 1973 print set are "Revision B", are you referring to the "Microprogram Flow", "Microprogram Symbolic Listing", or "Microprogram Binary Listing", because they can be at different revision levels (given in the box in the extreme lower right corner)? E.g. the ones in the KD11-B prints in the GT40 print set (dated February 1973) are 'B', 'C' and 'C', respectively; the hard-copy set I have (not dated explicitly, but apparently mid-1972, given the modification date on the 'Index' sheet) has 'B', 'B' and 'B'. > it is *exactly* the same printout as in the the Bitsavers doc Revision > C You mean the July 1976 set, the ones with microcode revision levels (as above) of 'C', 'E', and 'E', right? That is M7261 etch revision 'F', which uses quite a few different PROM chips from the earlier ones, so I'd be fairly surprised if the microcode was actually identical. I think you'd have to look at every bit to be sure; the data on which chips changed, here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Control_PROMs would allow anyone who wanted to actually do that to focus in on specific columns of the microprogram to look for differences. (In fact, the 'F' etch rev has one less PROM chip than the 'E' etch rev, but I suspect - i.e. I haven't checked the exact function of each chip on those etch levels - that it's not a micro-program chip, though: there's one less 32x8 PROM chip, and those are generally used for control functions, the microprogram chips are all 256x4.) Noel From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat May 7 10:24:57 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 07 May 2016 10:24:57 -0500 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> References: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <572E08C9.7050505@gmail.com> On 05/06/2016 01:47 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > And if anyone cares, you can't create floppy images from the really old softpaqs > on modern PCs. I ended up having to shuttle an IDE disk to the Portable 486 and > run the image copy program on there Yes, I found that too for the early Deskpro stuff. It might be possible to extract real data from the softpaqs without too much trouble, but for the number of times I was expecting to do it, it didn't seem worth the time and I just shunted things across to an old 486 machine and wrote images there. cheers Jules From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 7 11:20:06 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 12:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160507162006.59F7D18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > Now I am convinced that if I program a new A04A2 PROM the machine > should behave much better. Indeed! I have annotated the PROM tables on the Computer History wiki page with the function of each, and that PROM is the high part of the 'next microinstruction' field, so if it's bad, the computer will be acting very strangely indeed! :-) > The failing chip was yet another NS chip in plastic Can you see the type? I'd like to add to the page lists of all the alternate chip types DEC used in place of the Intersil chips specified in the drawings. >> the 'F' etch rev has one less PROM chip than the 'E' etch rev, but I >> suspect .. that it's not a micro-program chip, though My guess was correct; the missing chip is the one I called "Internal interrupt acknowledge"; it was replaced with a 74154 4->16 demux. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 7 12:35:04 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 10:35:04 -0700 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> Message-ID: <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> On 05/06/2016 10:26 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On May 6, 2016, at 1:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>>> TTL could never claim "lower power" :-) >> >> than vacuum tubes ("valves")? > > I think a well chosen hearing aid tube can outperform a classic (not > L or LS) 7400 series IC. This application sound like a perfect candidate for a CPLD. --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Sat May 7 13:04:10 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 20:04:10 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <20160507162006.59F7D18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160507162006.59F7D18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > The failing chip was yet another NS chip in plastic > > Can you see the type? I'd like to add to the page lists of all the > alternate > chip types DEC used in place of the Intersil chips specified in the > drawings. > > > I'll check all PROM chips on both board sets tomorrow. > >> the 'F' etch rev has one less PROM chip than the 'E' etch rev, but I > >> suspect .. that it's not a micro-program chip, though > > My guess was correct; the missing chip is the one I called "Internal > interrupt acknowledge"; it was replaced with a 74154 4->16 demux. What about compatibility between different revisions? I.e. Is it possible to mix DataParh board and Control board from different revisions with different microcode? /Mattis > > Noel > From trenchdweller at att.net Sat May 7 13:04:34 2016 From: trenchdweller at att.net (paul popelka) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 18:04:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Is there an authoritative copy of the PDP 11 Field Guide? References: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px #715FFA solid !important; padding-left:1ex !important; background-color:white !important; } I've been using Megan Gentry's copy at http://world.std.com/~mbg/ but that seems to have disappeared recently.There seem to be several other copies available with different update dates. Which copy of this do other people use?Thanks,Paul From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 7 14:05:54 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 07 May 2016 14:05:54 -0500 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> On 05/07/2016 12:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/06/2016 10:26 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> I think a well chosen hearing aid tube can outperform a classic (not >> L or LS) 7400 series IC. > This application sound like a perfect candidate for a CPLD. > > The Xilinx 9500 series of CPLDs are not low-power, by any means. They have a formula in the data sheet and a power calculator program, that are both WRONG! They underestimate power by a factor of 3!! I reported this to them, and they said I was right, but they were not going to fix the documentation! Sheesh! (The internal architecture is 36-input diode gates with pull-up resistors. You have two choices of resistor, low-power and fast.) The Xilinx CoolRunner II is quite low power, basically a CMOS FPGA architecture. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 7 14:11:06 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 12:11:06 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <34d94ce7-9b2a-e9f7-4d56-16a475abe9ee@bitsavers.org> On 5/6/16 11:45 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > What are the failure modes of PROMs? > early parts with nichrome fuses have a problem with migration where the blown link will grow back. you'll see that in single-bit errors in the part there are tech notes describing this from vendors that went with other technologies for the fuses From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 7 14:14:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 12:14:02 -0700 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: <572E08C9.7050505@gmail.com> References: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> <572E08C9.7050505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3602ce0f-17a0-1c3d-2b8e-6ba60caa936d@bitsavers.org> On 5/7/16 8:24 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > shunted > things across to an old 486 machine and wrote images there. > I had thought about a mass conversion for all the versions of the diagnostics and configuration programs, but then went back to all of the fires/ratholes I'm dealing with. From lists at loomcom.com Sat May 7 14:19:14 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 14:19:14 -0500 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual Message-ID: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> I don't suppose anyone has a copy of the CDC 9429 floppy drive maintenance manual they'd be willing to scan for me? I have reason to believe that the CDC 9428 and 9429 are identical except that the 9429 is jumpered for 80 tracks and the 9428 is jumpered for 40 tracks... but I'm not 100% sure. I do have a copy of the 9428 maintenance manual, thanks to Bitsavers, but having the 9429 manual would put my mind at ease lest I follow the alignment procedures from the 9428 manual and screw something up. -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 7 15:46:17 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 13:46:17 -0700 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <572E5419.80707@sydex.com> On 05/07/2016 12:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > The Xilinx 9500 series of CPLDs are not low-power, by any means. > They have a formula in the data sheet and a power calculator program, > that are both WRONG! They underestimate power by a factor of 3!! I > reported this to them, and they said I was right, but they were not > going to fix the documentation! Sheesh! I don't believe that Xilinx has produced the 9500 series for at least a couple of years. I believe that Atmel still makes some 5V CPLDs (ATF1500 seies). --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 7 16:00:31 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 07 May 2016 16:00:31 -0500 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <572E576F.8030409@pico-systems.com> On 05/07/2016 02:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/07/2016 12:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 05/06/2016 10:26 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>> I think a well chosen hearing aid tube can outperform a >>> classic (not >>> L or LS) 7400 series IC. >> This application sound like a perfect candidate for a CPLD. >> >> > The Xilinx 9500 series of CPLDs are not low-power, by any > means. They have a formula in the data sheet and a power > calculator program, that are both WRONG! They > underestimate power by a factor of 3!! I reported this to > them, and they said I was right, but they were not going > to fix the documentation! Sheesh! > > (The internal architecture is 36-input diode gates with > pull-up resistors. You have two choices of resistor, > low-power and fast.) > > The Xilinx CoolRunner II is quite low power, basically a > CMOS FPGA architecture. > > Jon > Oh, but only the 9500 series is a 5V part. The 9500 XL is 5 V tolerant, but needs 3.3 V supply. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 7 16:03:21 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 07 May 2016 16:03:21 -0500 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572E5419.80707@sydex.com> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> <572E5419.80707@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572E5819.5010608@pico-systems.com> On 05/07/2016 03:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/07/2016 12:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> The Xilinx 9500 series of CPLDs are not low-power, by any means. >> They have a formula in the data sheet and a power calculator program, >> that are both WRONG! They underestimate power by a factor of 3!! I >> reported this to them, and they said I was right, but they were not >> going to fix the documentation! Sheesh! > I don't believe that Xilinx has produced the 9500 series for at least a > couple of years. Oh, yes, definitely discontinued. There is stock of either NOS or counterfeit parts available from China. But, if you REALLY need a 5V-powered CPLD, there are only a few choices. > I believe that Atmel still makes some 5V CPLDs (ATF1500 seies). > I wonder for how long those will remain available. The big problem is the foundries are shutting down those 5 V processes. Jon From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat May 7 17:18:51 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 07 May 2016 23:18:51 +0100 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572AD4FE.9030201@sydex.com> References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572AD4FE.9030201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572E69CB.2040802@ntlworld.com> On 05/05/16 06:07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/04/2016 08:24 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: >> Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of >> the term "minicomputer" I strongly suspect it was around the time >> that the PDP11/20 came out or slightly later. The IBM 1130 and 1800 >> were comparable to the /original/ CDC 1700, were similarly launched >> in the mid 60s, but similarly they were not /at that time/ referred >> to as minis. > > Merriam Webster and the OED gives the first published use in 1967 > > http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/1967_words/ The OED cites: 1967. Datamation. Jan 1985/1. The quote is roughly '"an overcoat-pocket-sized" aerospace computer, the 449...' The OED does point out that the usage of the term has shifted over the years. Interestingly (well, interesting to me at least) the earliest OED citation from Datamation is "personal computer" from an advert in 1959 (May-Jun 29). There's an earlier citation for "personal computer" from 1954. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 7 19:28:17 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 17:28:17 -0700 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572E5819.5010608@pico-systems.com> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> <572E5419.80707@sydex.com> <572E5819.5010608@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <572E8821.9000304@sydex.com> On 05/07/2016 02:03 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > I wonder for how long those will remain available. The big problem > is the foundries are shutting down those 5 V processes. Time marches on--and logic levels sink. I wonder what HTL parts go for now on the spot market. --Chuck From steven at malikoff.com Sat May 7 19:40:56 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 10:40:56 +1000 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <20160507145052.3123318C0D9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160507145052.3123318C0D9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5ee2b5b75676d955951d19cebf75de1d.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Noel reckoned > BTW, when you say that the microcode listings in your 1973 print set are > "Revision B", are you referring to the "Microprogram Flow", "Microprogram > Symbolic Listing", or "Microprogram Binary Listing", because they can be at > different revision levels (given in the box in the extreme lower right > corner)? That's a good question, my conclusion about being the same was from a cursory glance only, going on the first few page and making a mistaken assumption the rest were the same. Now you mention it, I've spent a little bit more time looking at the print set and I now understand the revision differences as detailed. Microprogram Flow- Mine is Rev B. Pages 6,7,9,10,12,13 are still 27-JUL-72, 5-SEP-72 27-JUL-72, 27-JUL-72, 27-JUL-72,27-JUL-72 respectively. Not sure why they used a DD-MMM-YY date format when the rest of the dates are US format, probably for improved legibility. But, I can see these are noted on the update grid on the first page, anyway, I added the dates for a bit of extra info. Microprogram Symbolic Listing- Mine is Rev D. Pages dated 27-JUL-72, 5-SEP-72, 22-AUG-73, 22--AUG-73, 27-JUL-72. Microprogram Binary Listing- Mine is Rev D. Pages 27-JUL-72, 5-SEP-72, 18-OCT-72, 22-AUG-73, 22-AUG-73, 27-JUL-72. Microprogram Cross Reference Listing- Same lineprinter listing as the pdf, but the odd thing here is that mine has the listing pages numbered properly yet the later pdf listing has them struck out and annotated underneath. > ....so I'd be fairly surprised if the microcode was > actually identical. I think you'd have to look at every bit to be sure; the > data on which chips changed You are right. I made the assumption thet were identical from the first four or so pages being the same lineprinter listing, just re-copied, but did not expect to find the pdf having later dated pages inserted into the listing - who would do that these days (or even back the?) that they would not just run off a whole new listing. I appreciate your detailed comment as I've learned something I didn't know yesterday! Probably no point scanning mine in as it's superseded by the later listings in the pdf. Mine is more legible however. Sometime I'll get my 11/05's running, still working on converting modern rack slides into serviceable ones to fit the H960s. It's coming along but quite slowly, it's a suprising amount of work. Until then my gear is likely to stay piled up on a trolley. Steve. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 7 20:36:12 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 21:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160508013612.3DD3B18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > What about compatibility between different revisions? I.e. Is it > possible to mix DataParh board and Control board from different > revisions with different microcode? Well, I don't recall seeing any mention of compatability in the manuals, but that is not definitive either way. I had a look at the two versions of the data path board, and it seems to me that they are basically identical in their interface and function, so that either version would work with any control board version. I looked at the interconnects with i) the other CPU board (on the C-F connectors), and ii) the front console (through the Berg connector), and as far as I can see, both boards use the same interconnects. I didn't track down every last pin, and check them all, but I checked many, many pins, and all the ones I checked were the same. The two versions don't seem that different, internally. The PROMs are the same on the two versions of the data path board, for what that's worth - which is probably not that much. (The PROMs on the data path board don't contain any microcode at all; that's all on the control board.) One major difference is that the register file chips on the older board (which have tri-state outputs, and use that to do a mux) have been replaced by different register file chips, and real mux chips; however, the two versions should work identically. There are differences in the area of the serial line clock, but those should be immaterial. There are some other minor differences, but again, it seems like they should also work identically. So, that's the source of my conclusion that the two versions of the data path card are functionally identical, and can be interchanged. Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Sun May 8 00:17:50 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 23:17:50 -0600 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > I have reason to believe that the CDC 9428 and 9429 are identical > except that the 9429 is jumpered for 80 tracks and the 9428 is > jumpered for 40 tracks... but I'm not 100% sure. They would have to have different heads, if the 40 track model was standards-compliant and industry-compatible. A head suitable for 80-track use doesn't write a wide enough track to reliably write to a 40-track disk that has been written with a normal head. It's likely that the electronics is identical other than the jumper, and possibly the values of some passives. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun May 8 00:24:08 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 23:24:08 -0600 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) Message-ID: I got out my Tektronix DAS 9129 logic analyzer mainframe, which uses a red/green/yellow beam penetration CRT. It uses raster scan, whereas my other device with a beam penetration CRT, the HP 1338A (also red/green/yellow) is a vector (X-Y) display. I'm pleased to find that the 9129 passes self-test and the display works. Unfortunately I do not have any logic analyzer acquisition or pattern generator modules for it, so other than admiring the pretty display, it's only useful as a boat anchor. From jws at jwsss.com Sat May 7 17:33:31 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 15:33:31 -0700 Subject: Is there an authoritative copy of the PDP 11 Field Guide? In-Reply-To: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0cce8b3f-df2d-891e-8475-78b68bb2eae6@jwsss.com> On 5/7/2016 11:04 AM, paul popelka wrote: > I've been using Megan Gentry's copy at http://world.std.com/~mbg/ but that seems to have disappeared recently.There seem to be several other copies available with different update dates. > Which copy of this do other people use?Thanks,Paul I have an account on world.std.com and have emailed about restoring the page. I don't know about the status of the user, but mbg no longer has an account there. Will let people know. I've had an account on world since it started for personal shell internet access. If someone has updates then they could be applied, or an alternate for hosting it could be done in an orderly fashion, rather than just going to dead web air. (test patterns / static) Meanwhile it was cached regularly by archive.org. https://web.archive.org/web/20151121162811/http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt thanks Jim From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat May 7 15:47:48 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 16:47:48 -0400 Subject: Is there an authoritative copy of the PDP 11 Field Guide? In-Reply-To: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 2:04 PM, paul popelka wrote: > blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px > #715FFA solid !important; padding-left:1ex !important; > background-color:white !important; } I've been using Megan Gentry's copy > at http://world.std.com/~mbg/ but that seems to have disappeared > recently.There seem to be several other copies available with different > update dates. > Which copy of this do other people use?Thanks,Paul > > > They're all pretty much the same. Everyone seems to have copies of the original. I have been lobbying for, should there actually be someone here who maintains *the* authoritative canonical PDP 11 field guide, to differentiate between the original PDP 11/10 as it is listed in the 1969 and 1970 PDP 11 Handbooks from the 1973 version of the same name. See page 1 of the 1970 edition for example. Check the original 1969 PDP 11 handbook, then read each one through to the 1974 version and you'll see what I mean. The "2nd 11/10" did not even appear along with the original 11/05 at first. It's not in the 1972 handbook. The 1st version is a KA11 like the 11/20, the 2nd version is a totally different machine. I climb down from my soap box. Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From microtechdart at gmail.com Sun May 8 03:31:10 2016 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 03:31:10 -0500 Subject: Calling for [Point 4] IRIS programmers Message-ID: Hi, all. It's been a while since I've discussed anything here. We've made a lot of progress re-constructing a couple of Point 4 machines (as much as one can without the actual hardware), yet still need some help from a few knowledgeable folks in this 35+ year old OS. It was built on the DG Nova foundation, but made by Educational Data Systems, which became Point 4, for their Point 4 machines. So, it doesn't exactly "just run" on SimH Nova. We've been in regular contact with Bruce Ray, who is a true expert in all Data General and related systems. He has already helped us TREMENDOUSLY. http://NovasAreForever.org But other than Bruce Ray, are there any other folks here on this forum who may have had any IRIS programming, either on the Point 4, or another system of similarity in the late '70s to early '80s? I've hunted down a handful of people so far on LinkedIn and scouring the internet, and only a few of those have responded. But I just thought I'd make a shout out here. A small handful have kindly responded, with either limited recollection or availability, or both. In addition to Bruce, those who have contributed so far include David Takle, and one of the original Point 4 IRIS designers, Dan Paymar. We've added a LOT of new content and progress to our restoration/re-creation of what is turning out to be TWO distinct Point 4 IRIS systems. Stop by our site if you like, and especially review the directory page "Understranding IRIS": http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/p/understanding-iris.html Does anyone here have anything to add, or IRIS/Point 4 documentation that could be helpful here (other than what we have at http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/p/manuals.html ). Thanks all, I always appreciate the fantastic feedback here. -AJ http://MightyFrame.com http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun May 8 07:45:03 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 08:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160508124503.61A8118C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > I'll check all PROM chips on both board sets tomorrow. Check out the Computer History wiki Web page first; I looked at a couple of boards, and added all the chip types I could find. DEC used a vast variety, it seems! Noel From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun May 8 10:33:47 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 08 May 2016 10:33:47 -0500 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: <3602ce0f-17a0-1c3d-2b8e-6ba60caa936d@bitsavers.org> References: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> <572E08C9.7050505@gmail.com> <3602ce0f-17a0-1c3d-2b8e-6ba60caa936d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <572F5C5B.9020402@gmail.com> On 05/07/2016 02:14 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/7/16 8:24 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> shunted >> things across to an old 486 machine and wrote images there. >> > > I had thought about a mass conversion for all the versions of the diagnostics > and configuration programs, but then went back to all of the fires/ratholes I'm > dealing with. Right, at the moment it's probably more hassle than it's worth. In another decade... we'll see. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 8 10:50:14 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 08:50:14 -0700 Subject: CMU-CS-78-104 Message-ID: <3a32a2a6-eb95-c1e8-fa49-c9566b83d51d@bitsavers.org> Came across this in some stuff I got last week and thought it was pretty interesting http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cmu/cs-tr/CMU-CS-78-104_Impact_of_Implementation_Design_Tradeoffs_on_Performance_PDP-11_Feb78.pdf From elson at pico-systems.com Sun May 8 11:45:07 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 08 May 2016 11:45:07 -0500 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <572F6D13.7060203@pico-systems.com> On 05/08/2016 12:24 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I got out my Tektronix DAS 9129 logic analyzer mainframe, which uses a > red/green/yellow beam penetration CRT. It uses raster scan, whereas > my other device with a beam penetration CRT, the HP 1338A (also > red/green/yellow) is a vector (X-Y) display. > > I'm pleased to find that the 9129 passes self-test and the display > works. Unfortunately I do not have any logic analyzer acquisition or > pattern generator modules for it, so other than admiring the pretty > display, it's only useful as a boat anchor. > There is a LOT of Tek logic analyzer gear on eBay. Some of it goes fairly cheap, the older it is the cheaper. You can likely find the right acq modules within a month. The 91xx is REALLY old, too, so should cost more to ship the modules than the price for the units themselves. Jon From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun May 8 12:21:12 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 10:21:12 -0700 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: <572ABEB4.4010800@sbcglobal.net> References: <572ABEB4.4010800@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the link! I didn't know about it. Looks like a pretty straightforward trick, very helpful. Marc > On May 4, 2016, at 8:32 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> On 5/4/2016 5:52 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> Has anyone ever worked up a PC parallel port to Facit 4070 paper tape >> punch interface? >> >> I found one on a Swedish website. The punch parallel input looks like >> it is TTL compatible, but I can't find anything in the documentation >> that describes the input voltage specifications. >> >> Chuck > > Check this link out: > > http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~pmaydell/misc/cardpunch/dongle.htm > > It shows how to build a PC to 4070 interface. Basically inverting a few signals. > > Bob From pdaguytom at gmail.com Sun May 8 12:38:46 2016 From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom .) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 12:38:46 -0500 Subject: Decmate 2 error codes Message-ID: Just picked up a Decmate 2 and have managed to get a monitor, keyboard and boot disk (I think) setup for it, but when I attempt to boot it, I'm getting alternating error codes 17 and 19(on different boot attempts). I've searched and found some of the startup error codes but not these particular ones. Anyone know where I could find such a list? Thanks, Tom From spacewar at gmail.com Sun May 8 12:56:48 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 11:56:48 -0600 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: <572F6D13.7060203@pico-systems.com> References: <572F6D13.7060203@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On May 8, 2016 10:45 AM, "Jon Elson" wrote: > There is a LOT of Tek logic analyzer gear on eBay. Some of it goes fairly cheap, the older it is the cheaper. > You can likely find the right acq modules within a month. The 91xx is REALLY old, too, so should cost more to ship the modules than the price for the units themselves. The Tektronix DAS 9100 logic analyzer isn't old! Now my HP 5000A logic analyzer, THAT is old! :-) From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun May 8 14:11:40 2016 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 12:11:40 -0700 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > > I'm pleased to find that the 9129 passes self-test and the display > works. Unfortunately I do not have any logic analyzer acquisition or > pattern generator modules for it, so other than admiring the pretty > display, it's only useful as a boat anchor. > Surplus Gizmos in Hillsboro Oregon recently had a bunch of Tek 9100 mainframes and parts recently. Last time I visited, a couple of weeks ago, they had a bunch of Tek 500 and 5000 frames and 2 shelfs of plugins. http://www.surplusgizmos.com/ No affiliation other than a very happy customer of theirs. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From lists at loomcom.com Sun May 8 14:46:23 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 14:46:23 -0500 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> * On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 11:17:50PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > I have reason to believe that the CDC 9428 and 9429 are identical > > except that the 9429 is jumpered for 80 tracks and the 9428 is > > jumpered for 40 tracks... but I'm not 100% sure. > > They would have to have different heads, if the 40 track model was > standards-compliant and industry-compatible. Ahhh... of course, I should have thought of that. I am even more cautious about using the 9428 manual for 9429 service, then. -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 8 15:09:06 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 13:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> Message-ID: >>> I have reason to believe that the CDC 9428 and 9429 are identical >>> except that the 9429 is jumpered for 80 tracks and the 9428 is >>> jumpered for 40 tracks... but I'm not 100% sure. > * On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 11:17:50PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: >> They would have to have different heads, if the 40 track model was >> standards-compliant and industry-compatible. On Sun, 8 May 2016, Seth Morabito wrote: > Ahhh... of course, I should have thought of that. > I am even more cautious about using the 9428 manual for 9429 > service, then. Actually, many lines of drives, such as the Tandon TM100 have the same circuitry for both the 48tpi and 96tpi variants. (and the TM100-4M at 100tpi) A specific exception, that I don't think is relevant here, is that a 1.2M drive will have a few circuitry changes V a 48tpi/"360K" model, such as RWC (reduced write current), and sometimes a 300RPM V 360RPM control. But, a "360K" (CDC 9428) V "720K" (CDC 9429) are likely to be virtually identical other than step distance and head width. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 8 15:28:56 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 13:28:56 -0700 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> On 05/08/2016 01:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Actually, many lines of drives, such as the Tandon TM100 have the > same circuitry for both the 48tpi and 96tpi variants. (and the > TM100-4M at 100tpi) One of the things that endears to me those pieces of garbage is that they apparently changed PCB designs according to what parts they had on hand. I've got at least three different versions of the TM-100 PCBs, depending on the head stepper used (4 wire/6 wire). Some were better than others. Jugi was not known for quality production, just low cost Its amazing that so many survive--must be due the the numbers deployed. JTS hard drives, anyone? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 8 15:30:43 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 20:30:43 +0000 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> , <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > Actually, many lines of drives, such as the Tandon TM100 have the > > same circuitry for both the 48tpi and 96tpi variants. (and the > > TM100-4M at 100tpi) > > One of the things that endears to me those pieces of garbage is that They are considerably better than the Shugart drives with the plastic disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner.... > they apparently changed PCB designs according to what parts they had on > hand. I've got at least three different versions of the TM-100 PCBs, > depending on the head stepper used (4 wire/6 wire). Some were better > than others. HP used the TM100 in some of their machines. Oddly, the PCB is electrically identical to the normal Tandon one (even down to having jumper options that are never used in HP machines AFAIK) and has the same layout but is built like an HP board (entirely gold plated) and many of the ICs have 1820-xxxx numbers. -tony From pete at petelancashire.com Sun May 8 10:57:40 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 08:57:40 -0700 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought the Tektronix DAS used a custom tri-color crt, where the blue phosphor was replaced with yellow. On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I got out my Tektronix DAS 9129 logic analyzer mainframe, which uses a > red/green/yellow beam penetration CRT. It uses raster scan, whereas > my other device with a beam penetration CRT, the HP 1338A (also > red/green/yellow) is a vector (X-Y) display. > > I'm pleased to find that the 9129 passes self-test and the display > works. Unfortunately I do not have any logic analyzer acquisition or > pattern generator modules for it, so other than admiring the pretty > display, it's only useful as a boat anchor. > From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 8 15:49:49 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 13:49:49 -0700 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> On 05/08/2016 01:30 PM, tony duell wrote: > They are considerably better than the Shugart drives with the plastic > disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner.... Ah yes, the SA-400. When I was evaluating one, I wondered if Shugart was really serious about the things. Doubtless some engineer at Shugart was quite proud of himself for designing a ball-bearing follower for the spiral groove. Marks for being cheap. Oddly, my own troubles with the SA-400 (believe it or not, this was used as the original IBM offering for the 5150 drive) were with the tach circuit. Mine blew a small inductor. Among all of the 5.25" FH drives offered at the time, my vote still goes to Micropolis for designing the Sherman tank of drives. Leadscrew positioner with multiple steps per track. Probably among the most expensive 5.25" drives also. To their credit, Shugart did have the best hub-clamp setup. --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Sun May 8 15:54:21 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 13:54:21 -0700 Subject: Calling for [Point 4] IRIS programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 1:31 AM, Microtech Dart wrote: > Hi, all. It's been a while since I've discussed anything here. We've made > a lot of progress re-constructing a couple of Point 4 machines (as much as > one can without the actual hardware), yet still need some help from a few > knowledgeable folks in this 35+ year old OS. It was built on the DG Nova > foundation, but made by Educational Data Systems, which became Point 4, for > their Point 4 machines. So, it doesn't exactly "just run" on SimH Nova. > > We've been in regular contact with Bruce Ray, who is a true expert in all > Data General and related systems. He has already helped us TREMENDOUSLY. > http://NovasAreForever.org > > But other than Bruce Ray, are there any other folks here on this forum who > may have had any IRIS programming, either on the Point 4, or another system > of similarity in the late '70s to early '80s? > > I've hunted down a handful of people so far on LinkedIn and scouring the > internet, and only a few of those have responded. But I just thought I'd > make a shout out here. A small handful have kindly responded, with either > limited recollection or availability, or both. > > In addition to Bruce, those who have contributed so far include David > Takle, and one of the original Point 4 IRIS designers, Dan Paymar. > > We've added a LOT of new content and progress to our > restoration/re-creation of what is turning out to be TWO distinct Point 4 > IRIS systems. > > Stop by our site if you like, and especially review the directory page > "Understranding IRIS": > > http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/p/understanding-iris.html > > Does anyone here have anything to add, or IRIS/Point 4 documentation that > could be helpful here (other than what we have at > http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/p/manuals.html ). > > Thanks all, I always appreciate the fantastic feedback here. > > -AJ > http://MightyFrame.com > http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com > Very cool! Yes, I programmed on one of these in the late '70s, and I've casually Googled for info about it many times, with no success. So it's great to hear that someone has dug up some info on it and I'm not just hallucinating. I worked for a small company called Automated Funds Transfer Services (AFTS) that specialized in devices to read MICR, the special typeface used on checks (cheques), thus enabling automated reading. My big project was to develop a system for creating check printing masters, which had previously been done manually. Every time someone changed a phone number or moved, a new master had to be created, but by keeping the information in a database it was easy to make the edit and spit out a new master. I've often described IRIS as "BASIC with database extensions", and it was interesting writing a fault-resistant system in, well, BASIC. At one point in development, I asked our office manager to sit down at a terminal (ADM-3A) and 'just start pushing buttons'. When she couldn't crash it or get somewhere where she couldn't get back out, I said, 'Ship it!'. It was also a social experience: the system I had written replaced twelve people with special typewriters, with four people with ADM-3A terminals. I recall having some qualms about that, but recognized that 'progress' (whatever that means) wasn't going to be halted by my philosophical concerns, but my paycheck would. So there's my two cents' worth. Thanks for sharing this, it brings back some interesting memories.... -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 8 15:59:23 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 13:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > > Ahhh... of course, I should have thought of that. > > > I am even more cautious about using the 9428 manual for 9429 > > > service, then. >> Actually, many lines of drives, such as the Tandon TM100 have the >> same circuitry for both the 48tpi and 96tpi variants. (and the >> TM100-4M at 100tpi) On Sun, 8 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One of the things that endears to me those pieces of garbage is that > they apparently changed PCB designs according to what parts they had on > hand. I've got at least three different versions of the TM-100 PCBs, > depending on the head stepper used (4 wire/6 wire). Some were better > than others. Which would be an arument to be cautious about using the TM100-2 manual for the TM100-2, not just for the TM100-4. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun May 8 16:02:06 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 18:02:06 -0300 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572FA94E.6080103@gmail.com> On 2016-05-08 5:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/08/2016 01:30 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> They are considerably better than the Shugart drives with the plastic >> disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner.... > Ah yes, the SA-400. When I was evaluating one, I wondered if Shugart > was really serious about the things. Doubtless some engineer at Shugart > was quite proud of himself for designing a ball-bearing follower for the > spiral groove. Marks for being cheap. > > Oddly, my own troubles with the SA-400 (believe it or not, this was used > as the original IBM offering for the 5150 drive) were with the tach > circuit. Mine blew a small inductor. > > Among all of the 5.25" FH drives offered at the time, my vote still goes > to Micropolis for designing the Sherman tank of drives. Leadscrew > positioner with multiple steps per track. Probably among the most > expensive 5.25" drives also. > > To their credit, Shugart did have the best hub-clamp setup. > > --Chuck Are you sure about the SA-400 being used in 5150s? All the ones I ever saw where Tandon TM-100s which look very much like them and I saw lots as a support person in an IBM lab in the early 80s. They have the same sort of motor setup to turn the diskette, but use a different head positioner. The TM-100s used a stepper with a taut band positioner. Paul. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 8 16:18:04 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 14:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FA94E.6080103@gmail.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> <572FA94E.6080103@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Oddly, my own troubles with the SA-400 (believe it or not, this was used >> as the original IBM offering for the 5150 drive) were with the tach >> circuit. Mine blew a small inductor. On Sun, 8 May 2016, Paul Berger wrote: > Are you sure about the SA-400 being used in 5150s? All the ones I ever saw > where Tandon TM-100s which look very much like them and I saw lots as a > support person in an IBM lab in the early 80s. They have the same sort of > motor setup to turn the diskette, but use a different head positioner. The > TM-100s used a stepper with a taut band positioner. The first 5150s that I had, or saw, had Tandon TM100-1 (single sided). Followed (along with PC-DOS 1.10) with the TM100-2 (double sided). Later, I started to see some other brands of drives used by IBM in 5150s, but NEVER Shugart SA400. It would have at least had to be the SA400-L, since the SA400 was 35 track, and PC-DOS, from the get-go, used 40 tracks. The SA400 was, however, the original offering for the TRS80. Followed later by TM100-1 and a few others. And the SA390 (same mechanism, but without the circuit board) was used as original offering for Apple. There was an unconfirmed rumor that, for a while, when they ran short, that Apple bought SA400s and removed the board. I agree about Micropolis; it was the most reliable drive that I had, although kinda slow stepping. The LEAST reliable drives that I tried were the BASF 2/3 height, followed by the Qumetrak 142 (early 1/2 height) Worst problem that we faced with the TM100s was that students in the computer labs would let the door slam when opening, breaking the hinge. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 8 16:20:32 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 08 May 2016 22:20:32 +0100 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment Message-ID: Hi folks, Picked up a couple of nice condition VT's today, a VT101 and VT131 though only one DEC keyboard. 2 other keyboards were included which look identical to DEC ones but have different keytops and obvious non-DEC cables though they have the 6mm jack plug on the end. Need to dig into those. Anyhoo, the VT101's screen is showing the stretch-at-top-compress-at-bottom issue, is that adjustable using the troubleshooting guide in the technical reference or am I looking at replacing some caps? I also get character set glitches and it either doesn't register key presses or registers too many, I know it's not the keyboard itself since I've tried my 'DECbox' VT102 keyboard and it does the same. Not looked at the 5V rail yet, that's a job for tomorrow... cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 8 16:23:48 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 14:23:48 -0700 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FA94E.6080103@gmail.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> <572FA94E.6080103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <572FAE64.9000709@sydex.com> On 05/08/2016 02:02 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > Are you sure about the SA-400 being used in 5150s? All the ones I > ever saw where Tandon TM-100s which look very much like them and I > saw lots as a support person in an IBM lab in the early 80s. They > have the same sort of motor setup to turn the diskette, but use a > different head positioner. The TM-100s used a stepper with a taut > band positioner. Quite. I purchased my 64K 5150 from Computerland in San Jose (I probably still have the receipt) and included an MDA, a floppy controller, the SA-400, as well as PCDOS 1.1, MASM 1.0 and the techref. I didn't buy a monitor because I already had an OEM kit monitor that was probably better than the 5151. I later added a Quadram Quadboard with 256KB of memory--and then moved to PCDOS 2.1 and worked out a simple interface to a WD1000 controller with a Shugart SA-1000 hard drive, giving me 4MB of real hard disk. When I was on a floppy-only system, I added a Micropolis 1115-VI second drive. An odd beast with buffered seek. So, yes, I'm quite sure. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 8 16:32:08 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 14:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> <572FA94E.6080103@gmail.com> Message-ID: > It would have at least had to be the SA400-L, since the SA400 was 35 track, > and PC-DOS, from the get-go, used 40 tracks. Or [trivially] patched. Either done right, or kludged by putting a non-existent file in the directory occupying tracks 35-39. There were some strange patches in the early days! PC-DOS 1.00 was single sided only, but the FDC supported double sided, and double sided drives were very available. There was a patch being passed around that would permit installing a double sided drive, and the second side would be treated as though it were an additional drive. I never got around to trying that with 4 drives installed, . . . Does anybody know what the actual origin was for that patch? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 8 16:33:55 2016 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 22:33:55 +0100 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572FB0C3.20607@philpem.me.uk> On 08/05/16 21:49, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/08/2016 01:30 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> They are considerably better than the Shugart drives with the plastic >> disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner.... > > Ah yes, the SA-400. When I was evaluating one, I wondered if Shugart > was really serious about the things. Doubtless some engineer at Shugart > was quite proud of himself for designing a ball-bearing follower for the > spiral groove. Marks for being cheap. > > Oddly, my own troubles with the SA-400 (believe it or not, this was used > as the original IBM offering for the 5150 drive) were with the tach > circuit. Mine blew a small inductor. > > Among all of the 5.25" FH drives offered at the time, my vote still goes > to Micropolis for designing the Sherman tank of drives. Leadscrew > positioner with multiple steps per track. Probably among the most > expensive 5.25" drives also. > > To their credit, Shugart did have the best hub-clamp setup. > > --Chuck > > My awards list more or less goes as follows: Hardest to align: Nintendo Famicom Disk System. For bonus points, when you replace the drive belt, you have to realign the drive hub, which sets the "start of track" position. There must be a jig or procedure to do this, but I've never seen it. Homebrew procedure is to loosen the hub and rotate it a few degrees until things align and the drive works... The hub alignment, incidentally, is critical because the discs are written as a continuous spiral track, not a series of concentric tracks. Nicest half-height 5.25in: Teac FD-550 series I love these drives to bits. There are a bunch of variants (40/80 track, 1.2Meg and 360K) but they're pretty solid performers. Fairly good at reading crusty old disks. Keep a few Bemcot wipes and some isopropyl around to clean the heads. Weirdest drive interface: the NEC 8-inch drive Uses something called a "VFO" interface (I think I remembered that right?), which is a Japanese standard. Also needs to be rejumpered to provide raw data output. This is jolly good fun, because the jumpers (if memory serves) have quite odd labels... The "What were they thinking?!" award: Amstrad 3-incher, made by Panasonic. PC style power connector pinout. With the 5V and 12V swapped. You can bet every one of these you'll find that's been "tested working, motor spins when powered but that's normal" will have a fried ASIC. Again, has a drive belt, but at least you can replace this without cocking up the alignment. For 3.5in PC drives, I quite like the Sony drives. From experience with DiscFerret, they're pretty good at pulling a clean signal off discs some other drives won't even read. Some Panasonic drives are better built, though. Apples and oranges. Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 8 18:31:00 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 16:31:00 -0700 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FB0C3.20607@philpem.me.uk> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> <572FB0C3.20607@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <572FCC34.305@sydex.com> On 05/08/2016 02:33 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > My awards list more or less goes as follows: > > Hardest to align: Nintendo Famicom Disk System. For bonus points, > when you replace the drive belt, you have to realign the drive hub, > which sets the "start of track" position. There must be a jig or > procedure to do this, but I've never seen it. Homebrew procedure is > to loosen the hub and rotate it a few degrees until things align and > the drive works... The hub alignment, incidentally, is critical > because the discs are written as a continuous spiral track, not a > series of concentric tracks. Used on the Smith-Corona PWPs as well. Sad part is that the old belt turns to goo and is hard to clean and get running again. There is/was a seller on eBay who was offering polyurethane replacements. I've got a pile of those sitting in my freezer. > Nicest half-height 5.25in: Teac FD-550 series I love these drives to > bits. There are a bunch of variants (40/80 track, 1.2Meg and 360K) > but they're pretty solid performers. Fairly good at reading crusty > old disks. Keep a few Bemcot wipes and some isopropyl around to clean > the heads. I think you mean FD-55 series. Shame that they never made any 100 tpi varieties, but Teac did rebadge someone else's FH 100 tpi drive. > Weirdest drive interface: the NEC 8-inch drive Uses something called > a "VFO" interface (I think I remembered that right?), which is a > Japanese standard. Also needs to be rejumpered to provide raw data > output. This is jolly good fun, because the jumpers (if memory > serves) have quite odd labels... You can find old PC98-era Japanese stuff (along with some CNC gear) that requires these. Getting the gear going with a commodity legacy drive is a real chore--there used to be a manufacturer of external PLL data separator boards to accomplish this. > The "What were they thinking?!" award: Amstrad 3-incher, made by > Panasonic. PC style power connector pinout. With the 5V and 12V > swapped. You can bet every one of these you'll find that's been > "tested working, motor spins when powered but that's normal" will > have a fried ASIC. Again, has a drive belt, but at least you can > replace this without cocking up the alignment. I've done in a 3.5" drive on a Joyce by thinking that nobody would be so stupid as to swap the +5 and +12 on the same connector. Yes, it fried the drive. Also, the interface cable requires some serious 'reweaving' to interface to a traditional (Shugart-style) interface. > For 3.5in PC drives, I quite like the Sony drives. From experience > with DiscFerret, they're pretty good at pulling a clean signal off > discs some other drives won't even read. Some Panasonic drives are > better built, though. Apples and oranges. I've lately taken up with Samsung SFD-321B drives for general use. Well-made and very flexible. I occasionally provide drives to the CNC people where pin 34 is READY/ and pin 2 is DISK CHANGED/ with DS0 and 1.6MB (360 RPM) mode. All easily done with the Sammies. --------- On a related note of "weird and wonderful", does anyone have media for the Western Digital "Take Ten" cartridge drive? --Chuck From microtechdart at gmail.com Sun May 8 20:05:44 2016 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 20:05:44 -0500 Subject: Calling for [Point 4] IRIS programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for sharing that, Ian! Your story is exactly what I was hoping to gather here. Does our dissection of the LU0 make any sense to you? On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 1:31 AM, Microtech Dart > wrote: > > > Hi, all. It's been a while since I've discussed anything here. We've > made > > a lot of progress re-constructing a couple of Point 4 machines (as much > as > > one can without the actual hardware), yet still need some help from a few > > knowledgeable folks in this 35+ year old OS. It was built on the DG Nova > > foundation, but made by Educational Data Systems, which became Point 4, > for > > their Point 4 machines. So, it doesn't exactly "just run" on SimH Nova. > > > > We've been in regular contact with Bruce Ray, who is a true expert in all > > Data General and related systems. He has already helped us TREMENDOUSLY. > > http://NovasAreForever.org > > > > But other than Bruce Ray, are there any other folks here on this forum > who > > may have had any IRIS programming, either on the Point 4, or another > system > > of similarity in the late '70s to early '80s? > > > > I've hunted down a handful of people so far on LinkedIn and scouring the > > internet, and only a few of those have responded. But I just thought I'd > > make a shout out here. A small handful have kindly responded, with either > > limited recollection or availability, or both. > > > > In addition to Bruce, those who have contributed so far include David > > Takle, and one of the original Point 4 IRIS designers, Dan Paymar. > > > > We've added a LOT of new content and progress to our > > restoration/re-creation of what is turning out to be TWO distinct Point 4 > > IRIS systems. > > > > Stop by our site if you like, and especially review the directory page > > "Understranding IRIS": > > > > http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/p/understanding-iris.html > > > > Does anyone here have anything to add, or IRIS/Point 4 documentation that > > could be helpful here (other than what we have at > > http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/p/manuals.html ). > > > > Thanks all, I always appreciate the fantastic feedback here. > > > > -AJ > > http://MightyFrame.com > > http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com > > > > Very cool! Yes, I programmed on one of these in the late '70s, and I've > casually Googled for info about it many times, with no success. So it's > great to hear that someone has dug up some info on it and I'm not just > hallucinating. > > I worked for a small company called Automated Funds Transfer Services > (AFTS) that specialized in devices to read MICR, the special typeface used > on checks (cheques), thus enabling automated reading. My big project was > to develop a system for creating check printing masters, which had > previously been done manually. Every time someone changed a phone number > or moved, a new master had to be created, but by keeping the information in > a database it was easy to make the edit and spit out a new master. > > I've often described IRIS as "BASIC with database extensions", and it was > interesting writing a fault-resistant system in, well, BASIC. At one point > in development, I asked our office manager to sit down at a terminal > (ADM-3A) and 'just start pushing buttons'. When she couldn't crash it or > get somewhere where she couldn't get back out, I said, 'Ship it!'. > > It was also a social experience: the system I had written replaced twelve > people with special typewriters, with four people with ADM-3A terminals. I > recall having some qualms about that, but recognized that 'progress' > (whatever that means) wasn't going to be halted by my philosophical > concerns, but my paycheck would. > > So there's my two cents' worth. Thanks for sharing this, it brings back > some interesting memories.... -- Ian > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From elson at pico-systems.com Sun May 8 22:34:43 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 08 May 2016 22:34:43 -0500 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57300553.6060003@pico-systems.com> On 05/08/2016 04:20 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Anyhoo, the VT101's screen is showing the stretch-at-top-compress-at-bottom > issue, is that adjustable using the troubleshooting guide in the technical > reference or am I looking at replacing some caps? > > I'm guessing this is due to a failing non-polar capacitor in the vertical sweep circuit. That is a real common flaw in old TVs and video monitors. Jon From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:59:29 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 22:59:29 -0500 Subject: It has been quiet. In-Reply-To: <3e4747.6ee0e13b.44530202@aol.com> References: <3e4747.6ee0e13b.44530202@aol.com> Message-ID: all your msgs are going into my spam box ust noticed this On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 1:04 AM, wrote: > nope it is working > > > > In a message dated 4/27/2016 10:48:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > dkelvey at hotmail.com writes: > > Has the list gone down or just dropped me again? > From spacewar at gmail.com Sun May 8 23:33:32 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 22:33:32 -0600 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 9:57 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > I thought the Tektronix DAS used a custom tri-color crt, where the > blue phosphor was replaced with yellow. It is custom, and it is tri-color (red, green, yellow), but it's a beam penetration CRT that is not a modified version of any normal color CRT. There is no shadow mask, and it can only draw one color per field, like the 1951 CBS field-sequential color television, though that was done with a color wheel while this is done by modulating the anode voltage (and possibly the deflection drive as well). From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 8 21:02:29 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 21:02:29 -0500 Subject: Is there an authoritative copy of the PDP 11 Field Guide? In-Reply-To: <0cce8b3f-df2d-891e-8475-78b68bb2eae6@jwsss.com> References: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0cce8b3f-df2d-891e-8475-78b68bb2eae6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <000001d1a996$d78dd480$86a97d80$@classiccmp.org> I would be happy to host this, but I don't want to irk the content owner (Megan)... who I have heard is very much still around.... J From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon May 9 00:30:57 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 06:30:57 +0100 Subject: It has been quiet. In-Reply-To: References: <3e4747.6ee0e13b.44530202@aol.com> Message-ID: <9946e148-5f18-e843-bc33-61940125b479@btinternet.com> On 09/05/2016 04:59, Adrian Stoness wrote: > all your msgs are going into my spam box ust noticed this > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 1:04 AM, wrote: > >> nope it is working >> >> >> >> In a message dated 4/27/2016 10:48:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, >> dkelvey at hotmail.com writes: >> >> Has the list gone down or just dropped me again? >> nope it is working From julian at twinax.org Mon May 9 01:55:48 2016 From: julian at twinax.org (julian at twinax.org) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 09:55:48 +0300 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <0000f658a042$8debe5bb$45002cac$@twinax.org> Hello! You have a new message, please read julian at twinax.org From julian at twinax.org Mon May 9 01:55:48 2016 From: julian at twinax.org (julian at twinax.org) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 09:55:48 +0300 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <0000f658a042$8debe5bb$45002cac$@twinax.org> Hello! You have a new message, please read julian at twinax.org From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 9 04:29:57 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 11:29:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 May 2016, Mattis Lind wrote: > What are the failure modes of PROMs? I had a PROM fail on the 11/45 CPU board. This PROM is responsible for the Conditional Codes handling. There was one output that had failed. I think that the output drivers may fail, because I was able to temporarily fix the problem by adding a pull-_down_ resistor to the (open-collector) output. That fix was unstable of course, and I ended up in replacing the PROM with a GAL (ugly fix because the pinout doesn't match well, and there is no space for a nice adapter solution) Christian From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 9 06:13:11 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 13:13:11 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-05-09 11:29 GMT+02:00 Christian Corti : > On Sat, 7 May 2016, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> What are the failure modes of PROMs? >> > > I had a PROM fail on the 11/45 CPU board. This PROM is responsible for the > Conditional Codes handling. There was one output that had failed. I think > that the output drivers may fail, because I was able to temporarily fix the > problem by adding a pull-_down_ resistor to the (open-collector) output. > That fix was unstable of course, and I ended up in replacing the PROM with > a GAL (ugly fix because the pinout doesn't match well, and there is no > space for a nice adapter solution) In this case it was not a OC driver since it didn't affect all the addresses in the memory. Nor was it a single bit due to NiCr fuse regrowth since that should change the bit in one single direction as far as I understand. In this case random bits, as it seems, were changed in both directions. Never seen this type of symptom before. But I have had all sorts of strange problem with NS chips dated in the early seventies earlier. Last time I had a PROM failure is what the internal address decoding that failed which was easily seen as certain patterns repeated all the time /Mattis > > > Christian > From radiotest at juno.com Mon May 9 06:16:31 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Mon, 09 May 2016 07:16:31 -0400 Subject: It has been quiet. In-Reply-To: <9946e148-5f18-e843-bc33-61940125b479@btinternet.com> References: <3e4747.6ee0e13b.44530202@aol.com> <9946e148-5f18-e843-bc33-61940125b479@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160509071401.03fc4390@juno.com> At 01:30 AM 5/9/2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: >nope it is working To see if the list is working check the archives. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 9 09:03:37 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 08:03:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2016, Adrian Graham wrote: > Anyhoo, the VT101's screen is showing the > stretch-at-top-compress-at-bottom issue, is that adjustable using the > troubleshooting guide in the technical reference or am I looking at > replacing some caps? It sounds like a problem with what they call "deflection". I don't know about VT101's specifically, but there are usually a set of pots on the CRT logic board (the PCB mounted on the rear of the tube) you can adjust for such things. Check out this section of the Monitor Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/monfaq.htm#mondefl Depending on the type of distortion you are seeing, you'll need to adjust the pots to compensate. -Swift From pete at petelancashire.com Mon May 9 08:45:25 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 06:45:25 -0700 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I must be thinking of a different model. On May 8, 2016 9:33 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 9:57 AM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > > I thought the Tektronix DAS used a custom tri-color crt, where the > > blue phosphor was replaced with yellow. > > It is custom, and it is tri-color (red, green, yellow), but it's a > beam penetration CRT that is not a modified version of any normal > color CRT. There is no shadow mask, and it can only draw one color per > field, like the 1951 CBS field-sequential color television, though > that was done with a color wheel while this is done by modulating the > anode voltage (and possibly the deflection drive as well). > > From spacewar at gmail.com Mon May 9 12:42:06 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 11:42:06 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 5:13 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Last time I had a PROM failure is what the internal address decoding that > failed which was easily seen as certain patterns repeated all the time Not impossible, but it seems more likely that one of the address input pad buffers failed. From bradhodge75 at gmail.com Mon May 9 10:56:13 2016 From: bradhodge75 at gmail.com (Brad H) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 08:56:13 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder Message-ID: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> Hi there, I have a Memodyne M-80 Digital Cassette 'Computer' which, in talking to people more experienced than me, seems to be just a digital cassette recorder. Googling around there seems to be very little info out there, although one paper written about their use with scientific equipment detailed some of the bits triggered to make the recorder operate. Mine has several cards including a Z80 CPU card and serial input/output. I was wondering if anyone out there was familiar with these and/or had a manual? I read these were even used sometimes with SWTPC terminals/computers, so I'd be interested to see if I can get it running. Thanks!! Brad From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 9 13:23:17 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 20:23:17 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-05-09 19:42 GMT+02:00 Eric Smith : > On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 5:13 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Last time I had a PROM failure is what the internal address decoding that > > failed which was easily seen as certain patterns repeated all the time > > Not impossible, but it seems more likely that one of the address input > pad buffers failed. > You're probably right in that. On the other hand looking back on what I wrote I see that I wasn't completely accurate in describing the symptom... The symptom was that the upper 128 words was inclusive-OR:ed with the lower 128 words resulting in a quite strange upper 128 words. That was my reason for suspecting the faulty address decoder. Anyhow I have now ordered a bunch of Texas TBP24SA010 chips which I hope the old Data I/O 29B will be able to program successfully. From derschjo at gmail.com Mon May 9 13:31:07 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 11:31:07 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2016-05-09 19:42 GMT+02:00 Eric Smith : > > > On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 5:13 AM, Mattis Lind > wrote: > > > Last time I had a PROM failure is what the internal address decoding > that > > > failed which was easily seen as certain patterns repeated all the time > > > > Not impossible, but it seems more likely that one of the address input > > pad buffers failed. > > > > You're probably right in that. On the other hand looking back on what I > wrote I see that I wasn't completely accurate in describing the symptom... > The symptom was that the upper 128 words was inclusive-OR:ed with the lower > 128 words resulting in a quite strange upper 128 words. That was my reason > for suspecting the faulty address decoder. > > Anyhow I have now ordered a bunch of Texas TBP24SA010 chips which I hope > the old Data I/O 29B will be able to program successfully. > Having just programmed some 24SA10's a couple of weeks back on a Data I/O 29B, I can report that you should be fine... - Josh From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 9 15:28:10 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 09 May 2016 21:28:10 +0100 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 09/05/2016 15:03, "Swift Griggs" wrote: > On Sun, 8 May 2016, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Anyhoo, the VT101's screen is showing the >> stretch-at-top-compress-at-bottom issue, is that adjustable using the >> troubleshooting guide in the technical reference or am I looking at >> replacing some caps? > > It sounds like a problem with what they call "deflection". I don't know > about VT101's specifically, but there are usually a set of pots on the CRT > logic board (the PCB mounted on the rear of the tube) you can adjust for > such things. Check out this section of the Monitor Repair FAQ: > > http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/monfaq.htm#mondefl > > Depending on the type of distortion you are seeing, you'll need to adjust > the pots to compensate. Thanks for that, I now know it's vertical deflection which is adjusted by A102 on the monitor board so I'm just about to give it a tweak once I find my plastic trimmers and a screwdriver small enough to get the top off, it's the only VT1xx I have with all fasteners intact. Also that repairfaq lost me an hour at lunchtime while I read it, why did I not know about it before! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 9 16:15:46 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 15:15:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 May 2016, Adrian Graham wrote: > Thanks for that, I now know it's vertical deflection which is adjusted > by A102 on the monitor board so I'm just about to give it a tweak once I > find my plastic trimmers and a screwdriver small enough to get the top > off, it's the only VT1xx I have with all fasteners intact. No problem, I've often noticed a couple of things you should know: 1. Many times the pots are plastic. Be careful when you first "break" them loose, I've ruined a few in Trinitrons which were stuck so hard the thing kind of fell apart when twisting it. 2. Make darn sure you discharge the tube before you work on it. I use a flathead screwdriver with a 12g wire attached to it that runs down to grounded pipe. They will zap the living snot out of you if you don't. Just tie off the wire to a grounded source then stick the screwdriver underneath what looks like a little suction pad on the tube. You'll usually hear it discharge with a POP! If you already knew this, sorry, but I wanted to be sure you didn't get shocked. Messing with the CRT logic board is a great way to take a few thousand volts. :-) 3. Those CRT logic boards are usually replaceable all as a piece. Also, as someone already stated, they often have caps on them which impact the vertical sweep. If those go out, adjusting the pots does nothing or makes things look ruined/jittery. Some people can re-cap them, I've only done that once with another smarter guy watching me do it. I just usually replace the board if possible. > Also that repairfaq lost me an hour at lunchtime while I read it, why > did I not know about it before! Maybe you just hadn't needed to before. I used to work on monitors a long time ago, but I was never any good with electronics because I was never trained or self-motivated enough to learn digital theory or fight a logic analyzer or Verilog with any acumen. It's another hobby I'll have another go at one of these days. Today, I can mostly fix my guitar amps (old and analog), so that's good enough (for now). I learned those skills from doing electronics kit projects when I was a pre-teen and some extra analog tricks with a scope that I learned from an old hippie. I'll probably use the same sort of methods (but maybe start with some Arduino gear instead) the next time I try to pick up some more EE skills. It's hard not to be intimidated by all these guys on the list with mad electronics chops (Maciej, Eric, Fred and others are incredible; they know soooo much). -Swift From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon May 9 16:21:52 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 17:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > 2. Make darn sure you discharge the tube before you work on it. I've seen it said that discharging with a very low resistance path - like a piece of wire - can damage things. I don't know how much risk there really is, but I would tend do something like inserting a 100K or 1M resistor in the path to ground. The capacitance of the tube is low enough that the time constant is pretty low even with a resistor that high. If I'm off base, I'm sure someone will correct me! /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 9 16:36:43 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 15:36:43 -0600 (MDT) Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? Message-ID: I figure I'm good for about eighty hours or so of reading and fooling around with electronics before I'll want to move onto a different hobby for a while (I rotate through a whole bunch). That's my normal MO. So, I'm wondering what kind of skills I could build with that time, once I get started. I'd love to hear if anyone has suggestions for how to use my time wisely to learn skills that would be most useful for working on older machines (mid 80's to late 90's is my focus as far as a hardware bandpass). Here's what I (think) I know now: - Basics about electricity. Ie.. Ohms law, power vs frequency, etc.. - I understand basic physics ("A" in 100-level college course and two years of high school physics, too). I actually had an excellent teacher, too! - I used to do math to about a 300-400 level, but now I'm at a 100-200 level (I can still do most algebra II, some trig, and a few other bits). - I understand what most analog components do (resistors, capacitors, diodes, etc..). I can run a volt-meter, and super-basic operations with an analog scope (checking test points and that kind of simple crap) . I also have a rudimentary rig for soldering etc... - Since I'm a coder, I understand boolean logic (which I hope would help with ICs). - I took a digital electronics course in college. However, it was pathetic and it's all gone now anyway. I've spent most of my technical energy learning coding and sysadmin skills, not hardware. I'm still interested in it, though. I'm most comfortable with self-teaching via projects. Any that you folks would recommend (even if they are for kids, I don't mind, I'm not proud) I'd love to hear about them. Books, project kits, etc.. My goal would be able to understand 40% of what is happening on an Amiga 500 or that level of machine. If I could do that.... wow. fun. cool. Plus I bet I could repair many more items/problems than I can today. -Swift From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon May 9 16:48:29 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 09 May 2016 17:48:29 -0400 Subject: Wanted: IA-2000 Z80 CPU board... Message-ID: <1ef001d1aa3c$86a4ec10$93eec430$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Hi, I have an InterSystems DPS-1 chassis in pretty good condition coming my way and I'd like to put an IA-2000 CPU in it. Anybody have one they might consider selling? Thanks, Bill S. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 9 17:46:45 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 09 May 2016 23:46:45 +0100 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 09/05/2016 22:21, "Mouse" wrote: >> 2. Make darn sure you discharge the tube before you work on it. > > I've seen it said that discharging with a very low resistance path - > like a piece of wire - can damage things. I don't know how much risk > there really is, but I would tend do something like inserting a 100K or > 1M resistor in the path to ground. The capacitance of the tube is low > enough that the time constant is pretty low even with a resistor that > high. > > If I'm off base, I'm sure someone will correct me! Not correct so much as to say what's in the official DEC docs for working on these things where they show a line drawing of a standard screwdriver with a ground wire attached. My own discharge tool is a big plastic handled flat blade with ground wire and croc clip, long may it make me nervous when using it. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 9 17:52:52 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 09 May 2016 23:52:52 +0100 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 09/05/2016 22:15, "Swift Griggs" wrote: > On Mon, 9 May 2016, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Thanks for that, I now know it's vertical deflection which is adjusted >> by A102 on the monitor board so I'm just about to give it a tweak once I >> find my plastic trimmers and a screwdriver small enough to get the top >> off, it's the only VT1xx I have with all fasteners intact. > > No problem, I've often noticed a couple of things you should know: > > 1. Many times the pots are plastic. Be careful when you first "break" them > loose, I've ruined a few in Trinitrons which were stuck so hard the thing > kind of fell apart when twisting it. Yes indeed. Fortunately this one wielded under my trimmer and all is properly aligned now. All I need to do now is troubleshoot the keyboard circuit which I hope is the same as the VT102... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bradhodge75 at gmail.com Mon May 9 18:01:44 2016 From: bradhodge75 at gmail.com (Brad H) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 16:01:44 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M-80 'Cassette Computer' Message-ID: <182a01d1aa46$c2160270$46420750$@gmail.com> Hi guys, I have a Memodyne M80 'Cassette Computer'. From what I've gathered, it's basically just a digital tape drive (it has about 5 boards in it, including a Z80 board with an emprom marked '1200 baud', although from one sales doc it looks like it could have been built out to be a 'general purpose' Z80 computer. I've read these were used for a variety of purposes including SWTPC terminals like mine. What I cannot find though is any actual instruction manuals, etc that explain how to use it. I did find one PDF online as part of a university paper that described another Memodyne's system a little bit. Wondering if anyone has any info out there. It's a neat little box to look at, anyway. Many thanks, esp. to those like Chuck who were able to offer some useful advice thus far on it! :) Brad From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 9 19:20:57 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 00:20:57 +0000 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1C9412BB-F8A5-45F1-86DD-2A9C44890A72@swri.edu> On May 9, 2016, at 4:21 PM, Mouse wrote: > I would tend do something like inserting a 100K or > 1M resistor in the path to ground. ... > > If I'm off base, I'm sure someone will correct me! I strongly second Mouse?s recommendation (and to you too, Adrian). Suddenly placing a large charge anyplace on your ground plane (the pipe is as good a choice as I can think of, but ?.) could invert diodes, back-bias transistors, etc. etc. and it?s just so easy to avoid by having a large high-voltage resistor in series with your clip. No loud snap, no pyrotechnics, your hand won?t jump in involuntary reaction to the loud snap - it?s just a much more controlled and gentle effect on the system. I have not done it myself (either way) but have seen it done, and it works well. Resistors are really cheap insurance in this context. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon May 9 20:12:19 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 20:12:19 -0500 Subject: It has been quiet. In-Reply-To: References: <3e4747.6ee0e13b.44530202@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > all your msgs are going into my spam box ust noticed this > Gmail always tells me COURYHOUSE's messages would have been treated as spam, if I hadn't specifically exempted the messages of this list from ever being blocked. I wonder if Google has a prejudice against aol.com addresses? :) > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 1:04 AM, wrote: > > > nope it is working > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/27/2016 10:48:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > > dkelvey at hotmail.com writes: > > > > Has the list gone down or just dropped me again? > > > -- Eric Christopherson From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 9 21:17:39 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 19:17:39 -0700 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: <1C9412BB-F8A5-45F1-86DD-2A9C44890A72@swri.edu> References: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1C9412BB-F8A5-45F1-86DD-2A9C44890A72@swri.edu> Message-ID: <633F6BBA-B51A-4526-B693-85ABC53CF02F@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-09, at 5:20 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > On May 9, 2016, at 4:21 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> I would tend do something like inserting a 100K or >> 1M resistor in the path to ground. ... >> >> If I'm off base, I'm sure someone will correct me! > > I strongly second Mouse?s recommendation (and to you too, Adrian). Suddenly placing a large charge anyplace on your ground plane (the pipe is as good a choice as I can think of, but ?.) could invert diodes, back-bias transistors, etc. etc. and it?s just so easy to avoid by having a large high-voltage resistor in series with your clip. No loud snap, no pyrotechnics, your hand won?t jump in involuntary reaction to the loud snap - it?s just a much more controlled and gentle effect on the system. > I have not done it myself (either way) but have seen it done, and it works well. Resistors are really cheap insurance in this context. Resistors to limit the initial discharge current are a good practice for all those reasons, I would additionally suggest the place to put the 'ground' clip is on the ground straps over the CRT bell, or the ground wire coming from those straps, so the discharge currents are localised to the CRT. The CRT doesn't discharge to 'earth' or 'ground' (earth/ground is not some inherent vast expanse of charge sink), it discharges 'to' the outside of the bell. The bell forms a capacitor: one plate is a coating on the inside, one plate a coating on the outside, and the glass the dielectric. (Pedantically, at discharge, electrons flow from the outside plate of the bell to the inside plate.) Another good practice is to use several carbon-composition resistors in series, to increase the physical path length to avoid arcing across/within resistor(s). 1 or 2W resistors are all the better, not for power-handling but for the greater distance between the leads. Common film resistors with an internal spiral resistive element present a very short path for arcs to jump over. From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon May 9 22:28:24 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 05:28:24 +0200 Subject: It has been quiet. Message-ID: On 10 May 2016 at 03:12, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Gmail always tells me COURYHOUSE's messages would have been treated as > spam, if I hadn't specifically exempted the messages of this list from ever > being blocked. I wonder if Google has a prejudice against aol.com > addresses? :) No, it's a problem caused by the mailing list, yahoo (and presumably aol as well) use an authentication system to let recipients validate that the email is legit. That doesn't work properly with many standard mailing lists. Google 'dmarc yahoo mailing list', for example. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon May 9 22:41:05 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 23:41:05 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <01ff01d1a2c7$2da402d0$88ec0870$@gmail.com> References: <20160429201216.5D29B18C11C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201604300156.VAA10016@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01ff01d1a2c7$2da402d0$88ec0870$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57315851.7040904@compsys.to> >Dave Wade wrote: >Fortran has an EQUIVALENCE statement, COBOL has redefines. Both allows the >subversion of types at the drop of a hat. > I can think of two examples which were not so much subversion of types as they were a lack of language flexibility: (a) Very early in my FORTRAN experience, I needed to calculate values to solve a set of differential equations. The calculations could all be done using ordinary REAL floating point variables. However, the precision required to retain sufficient accuracy over the range of the solution required the state variables to be held as DOUBLE PRECISION variables. The simple solution was to define the increments to be added to the state variables as both REAL and DOUBLE PRECISION and to use the EQUIVALENCE statement for both. The state variables were managed in the same manner. When the increments were being calculated, the REAL variables were used. When the increments were being added to the state variables, DOUBLE PRECISION were used. In order to determine that this was a reasonable method, at one point only DOUBLE PRECISION variables were used to see if the overall results were different. By using only REAL variables during the calculation of the increments, calculation times was substantially reduced without sacrificing any overall accuracy since the increments were always a factor of a million or more less than the state variables. As just one example, one state variable was a distance of about 20,000,000 feet and each increment was at the most less than one foot. It sufficient to calculate the increment with a REAL variable, then switch to DOUBLE PRECISION when the increment was added to the state variable. At the end of the solution, the state variable was reduced to about 100,000 feet. However, using only REAL variables would have been inaccurate and using only DOUBLE PRECISION was a waste of CPU time. (b) At one point, the value within a variable for the number of days since 1910 exceeded 32767 when the Y2K situation was also close to becoming a problem. However, the total number of days never exceeded 65535, so a 4 byte integer was never required. BUT, the FORTRAN flavour which was being used did not support UNSIGNED variables. The only occasion when that became a problem was when the number of days had to be divided by 7 in order to determine the day of the week. Since that FORTRAN compiler thought the variable was SIGNED, before dividing by 7 the "SXT R0" instruction extended the high order bit in R1 into R0 just prior to the "DIV #7,R0" instruction. Rather than some very complicated manner of managing that single situation, the best solution seemed to be to change the "SXT R0" instruction to the "CLR R0" instruction - which, in effect, changed the variable being used during the divide operation to UNSIGNED from SIGNED. If that FORTRAN compiler had also supported UNSIGNED variables, the same sort of solution as was used in (a) might have been used. It was recognized that making such a change to the program being executed would force future updates through the same requirement, however, there were very few "SXT R0" being used and only ONE which was followed by the "DIV #7,R0" instruction. Probably the same sort of method could also be used with C when such situations occur. In general, although it might be considered a subversion, a more appropriate point of view might be that the same data requires a different protocol in the algorithm that is being used. Jerome Fine From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 9 22:40:30 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 04:40:30 +0100 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013a01d1aa6d$b31c0450$19540cf0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Swift > Griggs > Sent: 09 May 2016 22:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? > > > I figure I'm good for about eighty hours or so of reading and fooling around > with electronics before I'll want to move onto a different hobby for a while (I > rotate through a whole bunch). That's my normal MO. So, I'm wondering > what kind of skills I could build with that time, once I get started. I'd love to > hear if anyone has suggestions for how to use my time wisely to learn skills > that would be most useful for working on older machines (mid 80's to late > 90's is my focus as far as a hardware bandpass). You don't list being able to repair power supplies below. I would thoroughly recommend that as a valuable skill for older machines. I don't have any great skill there either, what I do know has come from people on this list very generously helping me out. Regards Rob > > Here's what I (think) I know now: > > - Basics about electricity. Ie.. Ohms law, power vs frequency, etc.. > > - I understand basic physics ("A" in 100-level college course and two > years of high school physics, too). I actually had an excellent teacher, > too! > > - I used to do math to about a 300-400 level, but now I'm at a 100-200 > level (I can still do most algebra II, some trig, and a few other bits). > > - I understand what most analog components do (resistors, capacitors, > diodes, etc..). I can run a volt-meter, and super-basic operations with > an analog scope (checking test points and that kind of simple crap) . I > also have a rudimentary rig for soldering etc... > > - Since I'm a coder, I understand boolean logic (which I hope would help > with ICs). > > - I took a digital electronics course in college. However, it was pathetic > and it's all gone now anyway. > > I've spent most of my technical energy learning coding and sysadmin skills, > not hardware. I'm still interested in it, though. I'm most comfortable with > self-teaching via projects. Any that you folks would recommend (even if they > are for kids, I don't mind, I'm not proud) I'd love to hear about them. Books, > project kits, etc.. My goal would be able to understand 40% of what is > happening on an Amiga 500 or that level of machine. If I could do that.... > wow. fun. cool. Plus I bet I could repair many more items/problems than I > can today. > > -Swift From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon May 9 22:42:02 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 23:42:02 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201604291805.OAA02857@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160429171934.693EB18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201604291805.OAA02857@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5731588A.8070305@compsys.to> >Mouse wrote: >Note that PDP-11 autoincrement and autodecrement exist only when >operating on pointers that are being indirected through, and even then >only when the pointers are in registers. C ++ and -- work fine on >things other than pointers, and on pointers when not indirecting >through them. > Maybe users of C and C++ don't bother, but those user who write in assembler for the PDP-11 will often take advantage of the ability of the autoincrement (and on rare occasions the autodecrement) properties of the instructions set to add (and rarely subtract) 2 and sometimes 4 within a given register: TST (R3)+ CMP (R3)+,(R3)+ CMP (R2)+,(R3)+ rather than ADD #2,R3 ADD #4,R3 ADD #2,R2 / ADD #2,R3 Naturally, the original value MUST be even and the original value in R3 can't be the address of an area in the IOPAGE which could then result in an address exception. These opportunities occur more often that would be expected and many users took advantage of a tiny reduction in the size of a program, especially in the early days when core storage was severely limited. Jerome Fine From scaron at diablonet.net Mon May 9 15:33:50 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 16:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder In-Reply-To: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> References: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 May 2016, Brad H wrote: > Hi there, > > > > I have a Memodyne M-80 Digital Cassette 'Computer' which, in talking to > people more experienced than me, seems to be just a digital cassette > recorder. Googling around there seems to be very little info out there, > although one paper written about their use with scientific equipment > detailed some of the bits triggered to make the recorder operate. Mine has > several cards including a Z80 CPU card and serial input/output. > > > > I was wondering if anyone out there was familiar with these and/or had a > manual? I read these were even used sometimes with SWTPC > terminals/computers, so I'd be interested to see if I can get it running. > > > > Thanks!! > > > > Brad > > I found some interesting information about it in the Appendices of this technical report: http://misclab.umeoce.maine.edu/education/VisibilityLab/reports/SIO_82-27.pdf Apparently the product was used in several documented data acquisition applications over the course of the early '80s. Best, Sean From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Mon May 9 17:59:45 2016 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 15:59:45 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M80 'Cassette Computer' Message-ID: <182501d1aa46$7b2a7df0$717f79d0$@yahoo.ca> Hi guys, I have a Memodyne M80 'Cassette Computer'. From what I've gathered, it's basically just a digital tape drive (it has about 5 boards in it, including a Z80 board with an emprom marked '1200 baud', although from one sales doc it looks like it could have been built out to be a 'general purpose' Z80 computer. I've read these were used for a variety of purposes including SWTPC terminals like mine. What I cannot find though is any actual instruction manuals, etc that explain how to use it. I did find one PDF online as part of a university paper that described another Memodyne's system a little bit. Wondering if anyone has any info out there. It's a neat little box to look at, anyway. Many thanks, esp. to those like Chuck who were able to offer some useful advice thus far on it! :) Brad From bradhodge75 at gmail.com Tue May 10 00:10:11 2016 From: bradhodge75 at gmail.com (Brad H) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 22:10:11 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder In-Reply-To: References: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <185501d1aa7a$3b2ea620$b18bf260$@gmail.com> Yes thanks! I was looking at that. However, the model show there is slightly different than mine.. mine doesn't have the keypad on the front. It only has a power and reset key. I assume as Chuck suggested to me previously there is a way to pass commands via serial to get it to do something.. but I've not found any info on what you need. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Caron Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 1:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder On Mon, 9 May 2016, Brad H wrote: > Hi there, > > > > I have a Memodyne M-80 Digital Cassette 'Computer' which, in talking > to people more experienced than me, seems to be just a digital > cassette recorder. Googling around there seems to be very little info > out there, although one paper written about their use with scientific > equipment detailed some of the bits triggered to make the recorder > operate. Mine has several cards including a Z80 CPU card and serial input/output. > > > > I was wondering if anyone out there was familiar with these and/or had > a manual? I read these were even used sometimes with SWTPC > terminals/computers, so I'd be interested to see if I can get it running. > > > > Thanks!! > > > > Brad > > I found some interesting information about it in the Appendices of this technical report: http://misclab.umeoce.maine.edu/education/VisibilityLab/reports/SIO_82-27.pd f Apparently the product was used in several documented data acquisition applications over the course of the early '80s. Best, Sean From bradhodge75 at gmail.com Tue May 10 00:10:11 2016 From: bradhodge75 at gmail.com (Brad H) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 22:10:11 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder In-Reply-To: References: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <185501d1aa7a$3b2ea620$b18bf260$@gmail.com> Yes thanks! I was looking at that. However, the model show there is slightly different than mine.. mine doesn't have the keypad on the front. It only has a power and reset key. I assume as Chuck suggested to me previously there is a way to pass commands via serial to get it to do something.. but I've not found any info on what you need. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Caron Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 1:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder On Mon, 9 May 2016, Brad H wrote: > Hi there, > > > > I have a Memodyne M-80 Digital Cassette 'Computer' which, in talking > to people more experienced than me, seems to be just a digital > cassette recorder. Googling around there seems to be very little info > out there, although one paper written about their use with scientific > equipment detailed some of the bits triggered to make the recorder > operate. Mine has several cards including a Z80 CPU card and serial input/output. > > > > I was wondering if anyone out there was familiar with these and/or had > a manual? I read these were even used sometimes with SWTPC > terminals/computers, so I'd be interested to see if I can get it running. > > > > Thanks!! > > > > Brad > > I found some interesting information about it in the Appendices of this technical report: http://misclab.umeoce.maine.edu/education/VisibilityLab/reports/SIO_82-27.pd f Apparently the product was used in several documented data acquisition applications over the course of the early '80s. Best, Sean From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 10 00:23:32 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 22:23:32 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder In-Reply-To: References: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57317054.9090206@sydex.com> On 05/09/2016 01:33 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > I found some interesting information about it in the Appendices of > this technical report: > > http://misclab.umeoce.maine.edu/education/VisibilityLab/reports/SIO_82-27.pdf > > > > Apparently the product was used in several documented data > acquisition applications over the course of the early '80s. If you were around in, say, 1975, this box would be no mystery at all. "Glass TTYs" were getting cheaper than the mechanical sort and used less paper. The problem was what to do about the paper tape thing. That's where these boxes came in. You hooked them inline between your terminal and its host (could be a modem, or a computer or a leased line) and instead of paper tape, you could use Philips audio cassettes, which held quite a bit. I used a two-deck Techtran model that could go to 9600 bps. One deck was read/write, the other was read-only. You could, via control codes, perform copying and editing between the two decks--you could even search for a (short) string. The mechanism was two-track (clock+data). You could purchase data casettes that were better suited to saturation recording than the audio sort. CNC gear up through the 1980s often had cassette decks or paper tape readers, as did large embroidery machines. Eventually, these were replaced by boxes with floppy drives, which today, are still around, but with floppy emulators in place of floppy drives. That the Memodyne was intended to be hooked between a terminal and a host is witnessed by the two connectors--one DB25F and one DB25M on the back panel. Really, it's just that simple. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 10 01:12:52 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 23:12:52 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder In-Reply-To: <57317054.9090206@sydex.com> References: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> <57317054.9090206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9e0485b6-989b-4fd4-7531-24e9b0859131@jwsss.com> On 5/9/2016 10:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/09/2016 01:33 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> I found some interesting information about it in the Appendices of >> this technical report: >> >> http://misclab.umeoce.maine.edu/education/VisibilityLab/reports/SIO_82-27.pdf >> >> >> >> Apparently the product was used in several documented data >> acquisition applications over the course of the early '80s. > If you were around in, say, 1975, this box would be no mystery at all. > > "Glass TTYs" were getting cheaper than the mechanical sort and used less > paper. The problem was what to do about the paper tape thing. > > That's where these boxes came in. You hooked them inline between your > terminal and its host (could be a modem, or a computer or a leased line) > and instead of paper tape, you could use Philips audio cassettes, which > held quite a bit. > > I used a two-deck Techtran model that could go to 9600 bps. One deck > was read/write, the other was read-only. You could, via control codes, > perform copying and editing between the two decks--you could even search > for a (short) string. The mechanism was two-track (clock+data). You > could purchase data casettes that were better suited to saturation > recording than the audio sort. > > CNC gear up through the 1980s often had cassette decks or paper tape > readers, as did large embroidery machines. Eventually, these were > replaced by boxes with floppy drives, which today, are still around, but > with floppy emulators in place of floppy drives. > > That the Memodyne was intended to be hooked between a terminal and a > host is witnessed by the two connectors--one DB25F and one DB25M on the > back panel. > > Really, it's just that simple. > > --Chuck > I have a couple of Columbia Data Products boxes which recorded to DC-300 type QIC tapes. They could both record and play back at up to 38k, IIRC. This is the same outfit that also made an early IBM PC compatible system. The really nifty thing about the BIOS on the CDP was that it had a binary debugger integrated into the BIOS so you could enable and use a keyboard break to stop the machine in its tracks running anywhere. But I digress. The thing that struck me about the above units was that it mentions that the tapes recorded were compatible with the TI printing terminals. IIRc there was a Silent 700 that had cassettes? Or was it the KSR version of the 800 dot matrix TI printers? Nifty units thanks Jim From mtapley at swri.edu Tue May 10 08:03:32 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 13:03:32 +0000 Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder In-Reply-To: <9e0485b6-989b-4fd4-7531-24e9b0859131@jwsss.com> References: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> <57317054.9090206@sydex.com> <9e0485b6-989b-4fd4-7531-24e9b0859131@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On May 10, 2016, at 1:12 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > IIRc there was a Silent 700 that had cassettes? Or was it the KSR version of the 800 dot matrix TI printers? I actually got to use one of these or one similar for a while: http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/TI_Silent_700_Model_733 Back in high school, while working at University of Texas Center for Space Research. We had a line from the NASA laser-ranging network which ran into the TI which recorded anything incoming onto its cassette. I?d come in in the morning, switch the TI connection to an RS-232 into the PDP-11, and play back the tape onto the ?gargantuan? hard drive, then change to a new tape and archive (put into a box) the old one. The PDP-11 would later send a week or more worth of observations to the campus CYBER to determine the orbit of whatever satellite was being tracked (usually LAGEOS, also Starlette and BE-2 (sic?).) The setup got replaced eventually by a CP/M system with 2 8? floppies (Balcones Computer Corporation, according to the box. I have never seen another one of those?.). Accustomed as I was to the 5.25? floppies on my TRS-80, I walked into the lab the day after the new CP/M box was installed - and my jaw fell open. The 8? drives just kept running! No spin-down when not being accessed! Luckily someone was there to explain that that was actually by design, I didn?t need to shut down the box to keep from wearing out the disks. Fun times. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue May 10 09:04:35 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 10:04:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: <633F6BBA-B51A-4526-B693-85ABC53CF02F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1C9412BB-F8A5-45F1-86DD-2A9C44890A72@swri.edu> <633F6BBA-B51A-4526-B693-85ABC53CF02F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201605101404.KAA12864@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Another good practice is to use several carbon-composition resistors in seri$ Actually, that makes me curious. Would a piece of pencil "lead" be a workable substitute? I could imagine taking a drafting/art pencil lead (the kind that's some 2-3 mm thick) with clip-leads, one on each end. (Preferably inside some kind of container, so the connection on the HV end is not exposed.) But I don't know whether its resistance would be too high (or too low, though that seems unlikely).... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue May 10 09:16:53 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 10:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > - Since I'm a coder, I understand boolean logic (which I hope would > help with ICs). While it's an understandable point of view, especially for a coder, not all ICs are digital logic - and even for those that are, understanding non-digital-logic aspects of them can be useful. (I built an EPROM reader out of SSI TTL, and found it always read the last octet as FF even in cases where I knew better. Turned out I forgot to connect the ground pin on the EPROM to circuit power ground; provided at least one input was low, it powered the chip through the input protection diodes, but when all connected pins were high - and all the non-address inputs that weren't high were tied to the ground pin - then all outputs perforce were too. But that failure mode would have been inexplicable if my mental model of the thing had been an ideal logic device.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 10 09:53:02 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 08:53:02 -0600 (MDT) Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2016, Mouse wrote: > While it's an understandable point of view, especially for a coder, not > all ICs are digital logic - and even for those that are, understanding > non-digital-logic aspects of them can be useful. Right now I've started looking at the textbooks & lessons here: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/ Volume IV is about digital. However, I'm finding quite a few topics in the previous books are things I'm not strong in, either. I get the feeling one needs to have quite mastered analog before moving to digital. So, I completely believe you. > (I built an EPROM reader out of SSI TTL, and found it always read the > last octet as FF even in cases where I knew better. Once I brush up on theory a bit, I'll have to find me a project like that. -Swift From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 09:59:18 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 14:59:18 +0000 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > > - Since I'm a coder, I understand boolean logic (which I hope would > > help with ICs). > > While it's an understandable point of view, especially for a coder, not > all ICs are digital logic - and even for those that are, understanding > non-digital-logic aspects of them can be useful. (I built an EPROM Remember one of Don Vonada's laws 'Digital Circuits are made from Analogue Parts' In my experience the most complex part of classic digital design (that is interconnecting physical componets, which may or may not be ICs) is the wiring. For anything of moderate speed you have to design the interconnections as transmission lines, know how to terminate them and the like. You have to understand that no connection has 0 impedance (0 resistance I can accept, but not 0 inductance or 0 capacitance to other connections). So what appears to be a solid power or ground connection may have different voltages along it. Getting back to the original request, my main worry is the 80 hour time limit. I am far from being the most knowledgeable person here, and perhaps I am a very slow learner, but I must have spent over 80 _thousand_ hours learning electronics and related subjeccts. And FWIW I am still learning. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 10:04:21 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 15:04:21 +0000 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: <201605101404.KAA12864@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1C9412BB-F8A5-45F1-86DD-2A9C44890A72@swri.edu> <633F6BBA-B51A-4526-B693-85ABC53CF02F@cs.ubc.ca>, <201605101404.KAA12864@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > > Another good practice is to use several carbon-composition resistors in seri$ > > Actually, that makes me curious. Would a piece of pencil "lead" be a > workable substitute? I could imagine taking a drafting/art pencil lead > (the kind that's some 2-3 mm thick) with clip-leads, one on each end. > (Preferably inside some kind of container, so the connection on the HV > end is not exposed.) > > But I don't know whether its resistance would be too high (or too low, > though that seems unlikely).... Actually pencil lead is suprisingly low resistance. Try sharpening a pencil at both ends and measuring it. When I was younger, I carefully cut and split a pencil apart lengthways. This left me with the lead in a trough of wood. A wire wrapped firmly round one end and a wire wrapped round that I could slide along made a reasonable varialble resistor. I can remember using it with a battery (probably about 4.5V to 6V) and a torch (flashlight) bulb as a dimmer, so the resistance can't be that high. The resistance does depend on the grade of pencil. The more 'black' it is. the lower the resistance. So a 6B has low restance, a 6H high, Of course we are all talking about rods of graphite, not the metal lead, right? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 10:10:28 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 15:10:28 +0000 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: [VT101 with vertical linearity problems] > Yes indeed. Fortunately this one wielded under my trimmer and all is > properly aligned now. All I need to do now is troubleshoot the keyboard > circuit which I hope is the same as the VT102... In general it is a bad idea to cure faults by adjustments. Unless somebody has been twiddling, these adjustments only drift if some other component is failing. They are there to initially set the circuit up for the components that are used, or in some cases, particularly in delta-gun colour CRTs, to correct for external conditions, such as magnetic fields. My guess is a capacitor is failing. So far you are still within the range of the adjusment, but it may well get worse. I don't know which video board you have (there are at least 3 different ones), but if it's the one on pages 54-58 of the VT100 printset on bitsavers (the VT100 and VT101 use the same video board), then check C318 and C319 for a start. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 10:14:49 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 15:14:49 +0000 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > Yes indeed. Fortunately this one wielded under my trimmer and all is > properly aligned now. All I need to do now is troubleshoot the keyboard > circuit which I hope is the same as the VT102... Forgot to mention... The keyboard itself is the same on the VT100, VT101, VT102, etc. The interface circuit on the main logic board is much the same too, so the info in the technical manual is of relevance. If you can stick one of my hand-drawn diagrams, I have reverse-enegineered the VT101 logic board and PSU board. Keyboard and video you can get from the VT100 printset, and I couldn't find a mains input bracket to trace out (maybe sometime) but that is pretty simple anyway. If you want the VT101 board diagrams just ask me nicely. -tony From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 10 10:25:21 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 09:25:21 -0600 (MDT) Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2016, tony duell wrote: > Remember one of Don Vonada's laws 'Digital Circuits are made from > Analogue Parts' That's an interesting saying. > So what appears to be a solid power or ground connection may have > different voltages along it. Those types of nuances and inconsistances are always frustrating but I understand it's the nature of working in the real world, rather than software. :-) > Getting back to the original request, my main worry is the 80 hour time > limit. Oh, that's just about the amount of time it takes before I rotate to the next hobby for a while. However, I find that the better I get a things, the more I enjoy them and then the rotations get longer for those hobbies. I just know that eighty hours is about as much as I can spend just doing pure learning before my mind needs a break for a while. It's not really a "limit". It's more my "bite size". > I am far from being the most knowledgeable person here, and perhaps I am > a very slow learner, but I must have spent over 80 _thousand_ hours > learning electronics and related subjeccts. And FWIW I am still > learning. I hear ya. There is nearly infinite depth there, no doubt. I just want to build up to a basic skill level that gets me functional in a few areas I care about. -Swift From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 10:27:55 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 15:27:55 +0000 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , Message-ID: > > Remember one of Don Vonada's laws 'Digital Circuits are made from > > Analogue Parts' > > That's an interesting saying. Maurice Wilkes (as in EDSAC) once told me 'A digital circuit is like a tame animal. An analogue circuit is like a wild animal. Every so often the digital circuit decides to go back to the wild' :-) Another of Don Vonada's laws is 'There is no such thing as ground'. This has 2 meanings. The first is the obvious one that a voltmeter has 2 leads and it is up to you to choose a reference point to measure voltages with respect to, The other is that, as I said before, any ground connection has impedance (it's the inductance that is troublesome normally) so that points (say IC pins) that are shown as grounded may actually have a voltage difference between them. -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 10 10:47:14 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 11:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8 core memory board Message-ID: <20160510154714.2EA0D18C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> FAYI: http://www.ebay.com/itm/262419353233 DEC H219a & G649 8K X 12 Core Memory Stack Noel From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 10 14:12:12 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 20:12:12 +0100 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/05/2016 16:10, "tony duell" wrote: > [VT101 with vertical linearity problems] > >> Yes indeed. Fortunately this one wielded under my trimmer and all is >> properly aligned now. All I need to do now is troubleshoot the keyboard >> circuit which I hope is the same as the VT102... > > In general it is a bad idea to cure faults by adjustments. Unless somebody > has been twiddling, these adjustments only drift if some other component is > failing. They are there to initially set the circuit up for the components > that > are used, or in some cases, particularly in delta-gun colour CRTs, to correct > for external conditions, such as magnetic fields. > > My guess is a capacitor is failing. So far you are still within the range of > the > adjusment, but it may well get worse. I don't know which video board you > have (there are at least 3 different ones), but if it's the one on pages 54-58 > of the VT100 printset on bitsavers (the VT100 and VT101 use the same > video board), then check C318 and C319 for a start. It's the same board as the VT102, just checked. I can easily check the caps. Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 14:18:13 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 19:18:13 +0000 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: [Your VT101 video board] > > It's the same board as the VT102, just checked. I can easily check the caps. >From what I remember there are at least 3 different video boards found in VT1xx's and any could appear in any model terminal. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 10 14:26:21 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 20:26:21 +0100 Subject: VT1x1 keyboard (was Re: VT101 screen adjustment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/05/2016 16:14, "tony duell" wrote: > The keyboard itself is the same on the VT100, VT101, VT102, etc. The interface > circuit on the main logic board is much the same too, so the info in the > technical manual is of relevance. I'm reading that in moments of quietness since the VT101 is showing random key decoding no matter which keyboard is plugged in. It only does it during keypresses so it doesn't seem to be a random bit setting itself. If I press and hold for example 's' I'll get several 's' on screen then something else will happen, then more 's'. +5V on the board is at +4.96V and the VT POSTs correctly so it's not an obvious RAM glitch, and it doesn't seem to be a warmup problem either. > If you can stick one of my hand-drawn diagrams, I have reverse-enegineered > the VT101 logic board and PSU board. Keyboard and video you can get from > the VT100 printset, and I couldn't find a mains input bracket to trace out > (maybe > sometime) but that is pretty simple anyway. If you want the VT101 board > diagrams just ask me nicely. I always ask nicely don't I? :) Drawings would be excellent please, and in return I can send pics of any internals you need including a mains input bracket. I had the VT131 one in bits on Sunday to fix the power switch which had disintegrated in the same way my VT102 did. Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue May 10 14:33:54 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 15:33:54 -0400 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , Message-ID: <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> tony duell wrote: > Another of Don Vonada's laws is 'There is no such > thing as ground'. My father is a civil engineer. When I was a little kid, he was in the US Air Force. We would frequently go to the runway snack bar, get ice cream and watch the B-52s do "touch-and-go" landing practice. The plane's wings would "flap". It raised the hair on the back of my neck. My dad explained that, if they didn't flex, the wings would break off. After a while, I understood, intellectually. It still "gave me the willies". Later I had a similar experience when I was with him in a tall building and realized that it was "waving in the wind". Same thing, if it didn't flex, it would fall. > The other is that, as I said before, any ground > connection has impedance (it's the inductance that > is troublesome normally) so that points (say IC pins) > that are shown as grounded may actually have a > voltage difference between them. If I think about it too much, this gives me the willies, the same way. Bill S. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 14:39:36 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 19:39:36 +0000 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , , <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: > > My father is a civil engineer. When I was a little > kid, he was in the US Air Force. We would frequently > go to the runway snack bar, get ice cream and watch > the B-52s do "touch-and-go" landing practice. The > plane's wings would "flap". It raised the hair on > the back of my neck. My dad explained that, if they > didn't flex, the wings would break off. After a > while, I understood, intellectually. It still "gave > me the willies". Later I had a similar experience > when I was with him in a tall building and realized > that it was "waving in the wind". Same thing, if it > didn't flex, it would fall. That reminds me of the following joke : There is an airline passenger. During some particularly turbulent conditions he looks out the window and sees the plane's wings flexing. He looks very worried. The flight attendant comes over to him and tries to comfort him by saying 'Our pilots are fully trained to fly in conditions like this. It's only turbulence, it's quite normal' He replies 'You don't undertand. I work for Boeing. I am one of the men who designed this aircraft. The wings are not supposed to flex like that.' > > The other is that, as I said before, any ground > > connection has impedance (it's the inductance that > > is troublesome normally) so that points (say IC pins) > > that are shown as grounded may actually have a > > voltage difference between them. > > If I think about it too much, this gives me the > willies, the same way. It's a very real problem, it's the main reason for decoupling capacitors which provide a local source of power with a low impedance connection (as they are so close to the IC). That's why I said that most times the interconnections are the hard part of a digital circuit. -tony From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 10 15:03:44 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 14:03:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , , <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2016, tony duell wrote: > It's a very real problem, it's the main reason for decoupling capacitors > which provide a local source of power with a low impedance connection > (as they are so close to the IC). It seems like there is a lot of "fiddling" with those types issues and getting good at doing so is part of the process of getting profecient with component level troubleshooting. That's why working with electronics "kits" (ie.. kit based projects) is about my speed right now. In most of those cases, folks have worked out the kinks involving connection issues, but I'm still just doing analog stuff. I have no idea how much it'll matter when I go to learn a bit about digital. However, that quote about digital circuits being made from analog physical bits seems like good foreshadowing. So, we'll see. I'm still playing along with projects from a kids' Elenco kit. I'm having fun with timers and making "bleeps and bloops". I'm also using it to try and figure out how about 5% of my borrowed ocilliscope works. I've got the manual, it's just figuring out what everything means is a bit challenging right now. So, it helps teach me how to calibrate the darn thing to just sit on something that looks like a sine wave etc... -Swift From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 10 15:46:06 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 16:46:06 -0400 Subject: VT1x1 keyboard (was Re: VT101 screen adjustment) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > ... I had the VT131 one in bits on Sunday to fix the power switch which > had disintegrated in the same way my VT102 did. Yeah... I had that exact problem last year with a VT100. I'd say that of several DEC terminals I've repaired, the two most common things were the EIA receivers (static/lightning, most likely) and the power switch. Distant third is video problems. -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 10 14:48:57 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 20:48:57 +0100 Subject: Non-DEC keyboard lookalikes (was: VT1xx stuff) Message-ID: Since I now have a couple of these and google is coming up blank-ish has anyone come across a VT keyboard, possibly from a Plessey PT100 style terminal, that is 99% VT100 in shape, colour and key layout? Even the 6mm jack plug though I know Apple used that too on the Lisa. I found a message thread from here in 2002 about the VT131 and what sounds like an identical keyboard but aside from 'don't knows' and a mention of Plessey nothing else was found and it descended into chat about scanning Microfiche. I toyed briefly with the thought that I'd ended up with the VT and keyboard of those messages but the OP of that was in Champagne IL. Earlier tonight I dismantled one of them in the hope of seeing a manufacturer or any sort of branding but nada. There's a 2716 EPROM marked 'PKB00' which I dumped but there's nothing of note in there either. Maybe the pic will help, maybe not since you'll think 'that's a VT keyboard' :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue May 10 16:25:42 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 18:25:42 -0300 Subject: News about hpmuseum.net In-Reply-To: References: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <573251D6.6090902@gmail.com> The following was posted on hpmuseum.org this morning: *RE: Jon Johnston Passes * As an update to the sad news of Jon Johnston's death, I can advise that the HP museum and the hpmuseum.net website he built will be continued and maintained for the foreseeable future. Over the last 8 months I have worked with Jon in restoring items from his collection of equipment and, among a range of items, recently restored an HP2116A computer to working order - one of only two Jon was aware of in the world and the only one that's operational. At this stage we have not been able to access the website and put any notices or updates but that should be addressed shortly. Jon's wife has asked me to look after the museum and website for the foreseeable future and as much as possible, continue to develop the museum in line with Jon's vision and objectives. As a short background, I joined HP Australia in 1982 as a Customer Engineer maintaining HP3000s, HP250s, all peripherals, terminals etc. I stayed with HP for over 26 years (including 5 years in Palo Alto) in a range of Services roles and have many fond memories of the company and the people I worked with. While my ability to invest time into the museum is more limited than Jon's, I hope to honour both his memory and the legacy of the 'old HP' by keeping the museum going as best I can, hopefully with help from the HP interest groups across the world. David Collins From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 10 17:09:57 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 22:09:57 +0000 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , , <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> , Message-ID: In order to trouble shoot, one needs to know how it is suppose to work. This often means studying schematics, data sheets and sometimes even app-notes. Avoid the replacing everything, until it starts working, type trouble shooting. As well as being a waste of time, it is more likely that you will introduce new problems in the process. Don't replace a part unless you can prove it to yourself that it is the most likely source of the error. This usually means running experiments. Since you are a coder, I find that anything with a working processor can be used as a self debugging tool. EPROMs or front panels are great for trouble shooting. Simple test are best. Many fear power supplies. Linears are the easiest because they are always some form of feedback loop. You just follow the loop until you find two points that are opposite directions from where the input point predicts the output point should be( goes back to knowing how it should work). If you can't find a schematic on the web, draw one. As a minimum, have a block diagram. I'm sure you have heard of the "scientific method". Trouble shooting is just that. It is the repetitive process of making an educated guess as to the source of the problem and then having an experiment to prove it either true or false. Try to have experiments that are conclusive. This is why I don't much care for the piggy back RAM test. It may or may not tell you that there is a problem with the RAM that you are checking. Learn to use a two channel oscilloscope with trigger and delayed sweep. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Swift Griggs Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:03:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? On Tue, 10 May 2016, tony duell wrote: > It's a very real problem, it's the main reason for decoupling capacitors > which provide a local source of power with a low impedance connection > (as they are so close to the IC). It seems like there is a lot of "fiddling" with those types issues and getting good at doing so is part of the process of getting profecient with component level troubleshooting. That's why working with electronics "kits" (ie.. kit based projects) is about my speed right now. In most of those cases, folks have worked out the kinks involving connection issues, but I'm still just doing analog stuff. I have no idea how much it'll matter when I go to learn a bit about digital. However, that quote about digital circuits being made from analog physical bits seems like good foreshadowing. So, we'll see. I'm still playing along with projects from a kids' Elenco kit. I'm having fun with timers and making "bleeps and bloops". I'm also using it to try and figure out how about 5% of my borrowed ocilliscope works. I've got the manual, it's just figuring out what everything means is a bit challenging right now. So, it helps teach me how to calibrate the darn thing to just sit on something that looks like a sine wave etc... -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 10 17:43:00 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 16:43:00 -0600 (MDT) Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , , <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> , Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2016, dwight wrote: > In order to trouble shoot, one needs to know how it is suppose to work. > This often means studying schematics, data sheets and sometimes even > app-notes. Cool. I'm good on this. I love schematics when I can get them. I can't always figure out what I'm looking at but it sure helps vs looking at a board! > Avoid the replacing everything, until it starts working, type trouble > shooting. As well as being a waste of time, it is more likely that you > will introduce new problems in the process. Don't replace a part unless > you can prove it to yourself that it is the most likely source of the > error. This strikes me as very good advice. I use the same type of mentality when I troubleshoot computer components and servers. I'm sure it's just as sound when dealing with components. > This usually means running experiments. Since you are a coder, I > find that anything with a working processor can be used as a self > debugging tool. I love that phrase "Self debugging tool." > EPROMs or front panels are great for trouble shooting. Simple test are > best. I'm a Unix guy. Simple is almost always better. :-) > Many fear power supplies. Linears are the easiest because they are > always some form of feedback loop. You just follow the loop until you > find two points that are opposite directions from where the input point > predicts the output point should be( goes back to knowing how it should > work). Okay, I'm one of those with a little fear of power supplies. It's little because I'm still ignorant (*grin*). Funny you should mention power, I'm studying this section on DC metering to build up to learning more about power circuits: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-8/what-is-a-meter/ BTW, I'm growing pretty fond of this instruction on allaboutcircuits. They have some really great material with excellent explanations & drawings. > If you can't find a schematic on the web, draw one. As a minimum, > have a block diagram. I keep reading that. I'm taking it to heart, mainly because I can barely keep up with one part of a circuit before having to move on and figure out a different part. Writing it down is the only way I could do it anyway. :) > I'm sure you have heard of the "scientific method". Trouble shooting is > just that. It is the repetitive process of making an educated guess as > to the source of the problem and then having an experiment to prove it > either true or false. Try to have experiments that are conclusive. That's good advice, in general, I think. I try to do the same with any type of troubleshooting. Even the Monte Carlo method (which I think rocks) is usually framed as an controlled experiment. > Learn to use a two channel oscilloscope with trigger and delayed sweep. Great! I've been looking into that. I'm guessing that helps when you are trying to look at a detailed edge/level and you can overlay the two wave forms? Also do you use variable holdoff much in real life? I'm reading about how it works, and it sounds useful in theory (and if I buy a scope, it *sounds* good). However, at my level, I'm not sure I'd ever use it. It just keeps coming up a lot when reading about scopes. -Swift From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 10 21:35:54 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 21:35:54 -0500 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <57329A8A.3000409@pico-systems.com> On 05/10/2016 02:33 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> The other is that, as I said before, any ground >> connection has impedance (it's the inductance that >> is troublesome normally) so that points (say IC pins) >> that are shown as grounded may actually have a >> voltage difference between them. > If I think about it too much, this gives me the > willies, the same way. > > I have a 3500 Lb Sheldon lathe. During rebuilding of it, I got a very sensitive electronic level, to aid in making sure the bed was reground straight. I found that when I walked from one end of the lathe to the other, it tilted about one arc second. That was my weight deflecting the concrete floor of my basement, causing the lathe to tilt slightly. All structures, including the earth, deflect under load. Jon From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 10 18:14:05 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 00:14:05 +0100 Subject: FW: Non-DEC keyboard lookalikes (was: VT1xx stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oops, I forgot the list doesn't allow attachments! http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/nonDECkeyboards.jpg A -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? ------ Forwarded Message From: Adrian Graham Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 20:48:57 +0100 To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Conversation: Non-DEC keyboard lookalikes (was: VT1xx stuff) Subject: Non-DEC keyboard lookalikes (was: VT1xx stuff) Since I now have a couple of these and google is coming up blank-ish has anyone come across a VT keyboard, possibly from a Plessey PT100 style terminal, that is 99% VT100 in shape, colour and key layout? Even the 6mm jack plug though I know Apple used that too on the Lisa. I found a message thread from here in 2002 about the VT131 and what sounds like an identical keyboard but aside from 'don't knows' and a mention of Plessey nothing else was found and it descended into chat about scanning Microfiche. I toyed briefly with the thought that I'd ended up with the VT and keyboard of those messages but the OP of that was in Champagne IL. Earlier tonight I dismantled one of them in the hope of seeing a manufacturer or any sort of branding but nada. There's a 2716 EPROM marked 'PKB00' which I dumped but there's nothing of note in there either. Maybe the pic will help, maybe not since you'll think 'that's a VT keyboard' :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? ------ End of Forwarded Message From spacewar at gmail.com Wed May 11 00:47:14 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 23:47:14 -0600 Subject: Pascal/8002 or other compilers for Tek 8002 dev. system? Message-ID: Does anyone have information about (or a copy of) the Pascal Development Co. Pascal/8002 Universal Program Development Package, that ran on the Tektronix 8002 development system? The only thing I've found is a blurb in Computerworld 1979-08-13 p. 56. Alternatively, I'm very interested in any other compiler that ran on the 8002 and produced p-code or bytecode, or any such compiler running on ANY machine which Tektronix may have used for product development. They might well have done cross-development from a mini or mainframe, but I'm guessing that they probably used their own 8002 system. Context: the Tektronix DAS 9100 logic analyzer is Z80 based, and contains many ROMs, mostly 8KB MK36000 series masked ROMs and MCM68764 EPROMs, but only one ROM appears to contain much actual Z80 code. That 8K ROM is labeled "INTERP" and contains a bytecode interpreter. Apparently all the other ROMs are full of bytecode. The bytecode does not match the UCSD p-code nor the ETHZ P4 p-code. I've started disassembling it, but haven't yet learned too much. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 11 01:39:40 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 07:39:40 +0100 Subject: Anyone Have a Working AlphaStation 200 to Run Some Tests For Me? Message-ID: I can?t remember if I already asked, but I need to find a working example and ask it?s owner to run some tests on it for me to help me diagnose a fault on mine. Ideally the machine would be running VMS. Thanks Rob Sent from my Windows 10 phone From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed May 11 03:19:40 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 10:19:40 +0200 Subject: Non-DEC keyboard lookalikes (was: VT1xx stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160511081940.GA7691@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 08:48:57PM +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > Since I now have a couple of these and google is coming up blank-ish has > anyone come across a VT keyboard, possibly from a Plessey PT100 style > terminal, that is 99% VT100 in shape, colour and key layout? Even the 6mm > jack plug though I know Apple used that too on the Lisa. I don't have my plessey vt100 clone anymore. But the shade of blue of your keyboards in your picture looks very familiar. I think I know someone who has a plessey still... /P From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed May 11 03:22:23 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 10:22:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2016, tony duell wrote: >> Yes indeed. Fortunately this one wielded under my trimmer and all is >> properly aligned now. All I need to do now is troubleshoot the keyboard >> circuit which I hope is the same as the VT102... > > In general it is a bad idea to cure faults by adjustments. Unless somebody > has been twiddling, these adjustments only drift if some other component is [...] > My guess is a capacitor is failing. So far you are still within the range of the [...] The most common failure in such alignments (like vertical linearity) is dirt/dust/oxide on the wiper of the adjustment potentiometer, so just turing it back and forth usually cures the problem. If not, *then* there's another problem. Christian From applecorey at optonline.net Wed May 11 06:05:52 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 07:05:52 -0400 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? Message-ID: I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 Thanks, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Wed May 11 06:11:03 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 21:11:03 +1000 Subject: Manual for Remex RRJ8000 serial paper tape reader circa 1979? Message-ID: <9CA8289D-1106-48D2-B35C-2DC5076F2FA2@retrocomputingtasmania.com> If anyone knows the dip switch settings, I'd be grateful to learn them please or even better a manual. It doesn't match any of the units currently on bitsavers. Compared to the more common Remex units this one is quite compact. I tried some test tapes and it produces a regular pattern differing only in a couple of bits, I think it is indicating parity errors, I'm guessing one of the dip-switch settings controls parity. From radiotest at juno.com Wed May 11 06:24:34 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 07:24:34 -0400 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160511072332.03e0f370@juno.com> At 07:05 AM 5/11/2016, Corey Cohen wrote: >Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 I used to run Mix C under CP/M 2.2 on my Kaypros. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed May 11 09:14:23 2016 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 10:14:23 -0400 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160511072332.03e0f370@juno.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160511072332.03e0f370@juno.com> Message-ID: I think I still have the Mix C floppies kicking around somewhere. I remember that they were in a format manipulable by the Commodore 1571 floppy drive, operating in some compatibility mode. On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 07:05 AM 5/11/2016, Corey Cohen wrote: > > >Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 > > I used to run Mix C under CP/M 2.2 on my Kaypros. > > Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > > From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed May 11 09:27:11 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 09:27:11 -0500 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0BD9A85C-40AC-4C23-8061-862BB4192A67@gmail.com> Seems like there was an Aztec C compiler. Sent from my iPhone > On May 11, 2016, at 6:05 AM, Corey Cohen wrote: > > I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 > > Thanks, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? From emu at e-bbes.com Wed May 11 09:33:11 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 16:33:11 +0200 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160511163311.3kmi4i3qyows8go8@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Corey Cohen : > I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I can > run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 http://www.z80.eu/c-compiler.html hope it helps From scaron at diablonet.net Wed May 11 10:57:03 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 11:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160511072332.03e0f370@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > I think I still have the Mix C floppies kicking around somewhere. I > remember that they were in a format manipulable by the Commodore 1571 > floppy drive, operating in some compatibility mode. > > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > >> At 07:05 AM 5/11/2016, Corey Cohen wrote: >> >>> Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 >> >> I used to run Mix C under CP/M 2.2 on my Kaypros. >> >> Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA >> Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 >> http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html >> >> > Mix C! Now that brings back memories! First C compiler I had access to as a kid ... under DOS ... there was a DOS version, too, IIRC. It sufficed until I figured out how to acquire Minix and get it installed on my old Toshiba T3100 ;) Best, Sean From radiotest at juno.com Wed May 11 12:55:22 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 13:55:22 -0400 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160511072332.03e0f370@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160511134734.03ef2620@juno.com> At 11:57 AM 5/11/2016, Sean Caron wrote: >Mix C! Now that brings back memories! First C compiler I had access to as a kid ... It was the first C compiler that I had access to, but I was no kid - I had taken my first college programming course about 25 years earlier. To be fair, until I got my first CP/M machine I hadn't written any programs in years as I had been mainly doing hardware maintenance on IBM System 36 and DEC PDP-8 minis. I still have the Kaypro that I ran Mix C on, and still have the Mix C as well. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 11 13:29:29 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 11:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, Corey Cohen wrote: > I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 For casually playing with the language, rather than serious projects, consider BDS C, by Leor Zolman. Source code is available. From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 11 13:44:32 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 11:44:32 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek In-Reply-To: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> References: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 4/7/2016 1:07 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > A friend has a large set of paper tape which seems to be from a DG > User group (not sure about that, but label on box sort of implies that). Thanks to Erik Baigar, I have gotten his paper tape reader and have made one pass on reading the tapes. The originals belong to Sherman Foy. Also Charles Anthony made a pass at writing a video based reader (which I still would love to see). There are notes on this dropbox share of the data. I would like to host it with either bitsavers or Jay or both when I get cleaned up versions of the tapes. Any suggestions about running this, or what it is, or corrections to my reading (see notes.txt in the share) would be appreciated. Also if someone would be so kind as to give a nice writeup of how to get the goods to run this on simh or some other accessible simulator I'd like to add that to the info. There are photos of the tape and the reader as well. I have not documented the labels on the tapes as of yet, but one of the tape files has a better explanation of the tapes than that anyway. I will document the tape info when I finish the reading process. Thanks Jim https://www.dropbox.com/sh/18q1hpfknbeviip/AAAFgRrBXgygAFfNbBuPzXGva?dl=0 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed May 11 13:36:06 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 19:36:06 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Message-ID: <037101d1abb3$fb5125b0$f1f37110$@gmail.com> Folks, I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. It looks to me like there are two CPU's in there, a console card, RX02 Controller, Memory and Bus Terminator. I have done lots of searching and there doesn't seem to be a simple list of what can run on it, assuming I can find some RX02 floppy disks to go with it.. Any pointers to documentation? Clues on how to arrange the cards in the box. Dave Wade From chrise at pobox.com Wed May 11 14:06:47 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 14:06:47 -0500 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160511190647.GF3147@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (05/11/2016 at 07:05AM -0400), Corey Cohen wrote: > I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 There was also Walt Bilofsky's C/80 from Software Toolworks. This was popular on CP/M and HDOS on the Heath H8 and H89 systems. http://www.toolworks.com/ http://heathkit.garlanger.com/library/TheSoftwareToolworks/software/C80.shtml http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/software/software%20toolworks/software/Software%20toolworks%20C-80%20C%20compiler%201982.pdf -- Chris Elmquist From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed May 11 14:12:31 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:12:31 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <037101d1abb3$fb5125b0$f1f37110$@gmail.com> References: <037101d1abb3$fb5125b0$f1f37110$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 2:36 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > Folks, > > I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. It looks > to me like there are two CPU's in there, a console card, RX02 Controller, > Memory and Bus Terminator. I have done lots of searching and there doesn't > seem to be a simple list of what can run on it, assuming I can find some > RX02 floppy disks to go with it.. Any pointers to documentation? Clues on > how to arrange the cards in the box. > > Dave Wade > > > Dave - Please provide the list of the cards installed, and the type of mounting box and power supply model. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 11 14:30:44 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 Message-ID: <20160511193044.C14F518C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Wade > I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. If that's really where it came from, it's a QBUS 11/03. (And IIRC only the 780 had a PDP-11 console, although I'm not a VAX expert.) > It looks to me like there are two CPU's in there Well, as Bill said, send us the 'M-numbers' (on the board handles), and we'll tell you what you've got - but multi-CPU PDP11's basically don't exist (with some rare exceptions), and certainly not in a VAX console. So I'm not sure what you have there. > and Bus Terminator Actually, that's the 'QBUS out' connector card; the way the PDP-11 runs the VAX is that there's a card in the 780 CPU which is on the QBUS (there are cables that run from the QBUS out to that card), and it allows the -11 to totally control the 780 CPU. > I have done lots of searching and there doesn't seem to be a simple > list of what can run on it Well, nothing that needs memory management - at least, as it sits. You could swap out the CPU card for an 11/23 or 11/73, then you could run an OS that needs memory management (Unix, or one of the DEC OS's that needs it - I know nothing of the DEC OS's for the -11, someone else here will, though). And your backplane is probably so-called Q18, limited to 256KB of memory, but that's easy to upgrade. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 11 14:45:46 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:45:46 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20160511193044.C14F518C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160511193044.C14F518C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> > On May 11, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Dave Wade > >> I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. > > If that's really where it came from, it's a QBUS 11/03. (And IIRC only the > 780 had a PDP-11 console, although I'm not a VAX expert.) Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models specifically. > ... >> I have done lots of searching and there doesn't seem to be a simple >> list of what can run on it > > Well, nothing that needs memory management - at least, as it sits. You could > swap out the CPU card for an 11/23 or 11/73, then you could run an OS that > needs memory management (Unix, or one of the DEC OS's that needs it - I know > nothing of the DEC OS's for the -11, someone else here will, though). And > your backplane is probably so-called Q18, limited to 256KB of memory, but > that's easy to upgrade. The 11/03 should run RT-11 nicely. Limited RSX, possibly; I don't know those details. RSTS V4 also runs on unmapped PDP-11 systems, but that OS only supports Unibus machines and a very limited set of disk controllers (which doesn't include floppies). paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 11 15:13:02 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 13:13:02 -0700 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5733924E.6070702@sydex.com> On 05/11/2016 11:29 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 11 May 2016, Corey Cohen wrote: >> I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I >> can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 > > For casually playing with the language, rather than serious > projects, consider BDS C, by Leor Zolman. Source code is > available. If you're just goofing around, I think there was a version of Tiny C for the x80--I don't recall if it required a Z80 ISA or not. There were also cross-compilers. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 11 15:40:37 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 20:40:37 +0000 Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek In-Reply-To: References: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com>, Message-ID: Also watch out for rubber bands. Before turning to hard crunchy stuff that yo can brush off, they go through a gooey stage that can dry up and stick layers together. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jwsmobile Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 11:44:32 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Data General Nova Star Trek On 4/7/2016 1:07 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > A friend has a large set of paper tape which seems to be from a DG > User group (not sure about that, but label on box sort of implies that). Thanks to Erik Baigar, I have gotten his paper tape reader and have made one pass on reading the tapes. The originals belong to Sherman Foy. Also Charles Anthony made a pass at writing a video based reader (which I still would love to see). There are notes on this dropbox share of the data. I would like to host it with either bitsavers or Jay or both when I get cleaned up versions of the tapes. Any suggestions about running this, or what it is, or corrections to my reading (see notes.txt in the share) would be appreciated. Also if someone would be so kind as to give a nice writeup of how to get the goods to run this on simh or some other accessible simulator I'd like to add that to the info. There are photos of the tape and the reader as well. I have not documented the labels on the tapes as of yet, but one of the tape files has a better explanation of the tapes than that anyway. I will document the tape info when I finish the reading process. Thanks Jim https://www.dropbox.com/sh/18q1hpfknbeviip/AAAFgRrBXgygAFfNbBuPzXGva?dl=0 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed May 11 15:53:20 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 21:53:20 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> References: <20160511193044.C14F518C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> Message-ID: I thought I had attached a pic of the card layouts, I assume these are deleted... Here is a link... Sorry it's long. https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=277A0739F125010E!88626&authkey=!AEjo1kJ4FKG5jZk&v=3&ithint=photo%2cJPG Cards are M7264, M7940,M9400ye M8044ee,m7946 M8192,empty. Also have loose grant card.... On 11 May 2016 20:46, "Paul Koning" wrote: > > > > On May 11, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > >> From: Dave Wade > > > >> I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. > > > > If that's really where it came from, it's a QBUS 11/03. (And IIRC only the > > 780 had a PDP-11 console, although I'm not a VAX expert.) > > Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models specifically. > > > ... > >> I have done lots of searching and there doesn't seem to be a simple > >> list of what can run on it > > > > Well, nothing that needs memory management - at least, as it sits. You could > > swap out the CPU card for an 11/23 or 11/73, then you could run an OS that > > needs memory management (Unix, or one of the DEC OS's that needs it - I know > > nothing of the DEC OS's for the -11, someone else here will, though). And > > your backplane is probably so-called Q18, limited to 256KB of memory, but > > that's easy to upgrade. > > The 11/03 should run RT-11 nicely. Limited RSX, possibly; I don't know those details. RSTS V4 also runs on unmapped PDP-11 systems, but that OS only supports Unibus machines and a very limited set of disk controllers (which doesn't include floppies). > > paul > > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 11 16:10:19 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:10:19 -0600 (MDT) Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" Message-ID: Has anyone used a 3D printer to make a case for their old machine ? I've started drafting an SGI Indy "skin" in Sketch, but it's just a box right now, nothing cool. I've noticed and been somewhat inspired by these: I think this one is very clever. The guy used 3D printed parts just to sort of "glue" the heatsink and lucite/glass together. It looks great. http://technabob.com/blog/2012/12/27/diy-silent-computer/ This guy made one for an Intel NUC: http://tinyurl.com/k9xpb9s This person used plexiglass to overcome print size issues I'm guessing: http://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12671 Here is one for a Pi that looks like a NES http://technabob.com/blog/2014/04/27/3d-printed-raspberry-pi-nes-case/ This one is also for a Pi, but is a bit like a laptop, too: http://tinyurl.com/z8rgrmd A C64 custom job: https://3dprint.com/39764/3d-print-commodore-case/ Obviously, this kind of thing would be great for SGIs, which are mostly made to accomidate plastic covers on metal skids (ie.. "skins"). -Swift From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 11 16:20:35 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 22:20:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <20160511193044.C14F518C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1249580577.1016779.1463001635540.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 11 May 2016 at 21:53 Dave Wade wrote: > > > I thought I had attached a pic of the card layouts, I assume these are > deleted... Here is a link... Sorry it's long. > > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=277A0739F125010E!88626&authkey=!AEjo1kJ4FKG5jZk&v=3&ithint=photo%2cJPG > > Cards are > M7264, > M7940,M9400ye > M8044ee,m7946 > M8192,empty. > > Also have loose grant card.... > I collected this machine on Dave's behalf. The seller said it was indeed out of a 780. I got the impression the 11/23 card was just a spare he had that he put in the enclosure, not really part of the original system. Regards Rob > > > On 11 May 2016 20:46, "Paul Koning" wrote: > > > > > > > On May 11, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > > > > > >> From: Dave Wade > > > > > >> I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. > > > > > > If that's really where it came from, it's a QBUS 11/03. (And IIRC only > the > > > 780 had a PDP-11 console, although I'm not a VAX expert.) > > > > Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models > specifically. > > > > > ... > > >> I have done lots of searching and there doesn't seem to be a simple > > >> list of what can run on it > > > > > > Well, nothing that needs memory management - at least, as it sits. You > could > > > swap out the CPU card for an 11/23 or 11/73, then you could run an OS > that > > > needs memory management (Unix, or one of the DEC OS's that needs it - > > > I > know > > > nothing of the DEC OS's for the -11, someone else here will, though). > And > > > your backplane is probably so-called Q18, limited to 256KB of memory, > but > > > that's easy to upgrade. > > > > The 11/03 should run RT-11 nicely. Limited RSX, possibly; I don't know > those details. RSTS V4 also runs on unmapped PDP-11 systems, but that OS > only supports Unibus machines and a very limited set of disk controllers > (which doesn't include floppies). > > > > paul > > > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 11 16:21:46 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 14:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Has anyone used a 3D printer to make a case for their old machine ? I've > started drafting an SGI Indy "skin" in Sketch, but it's just a box right > now, nothing cool. I've noticed and been somewhat inspired by these: > Do NOT use SketchUp to create parts for 3D printing. You'll end up with an STL that's all screwed up. A good, free tool for this kind of thing would be DesignSpark Mechanical. It has a workflow similar to SketchUp. There's other free-to-use packages out there but I'm not familiar with them. > A C64 custom job: > https://3dprint.com/39764/3d-print-commodore-case/ > That's not a C-64. It's an emulated C-64 with a PC keyboard. :) g. <--- writes manuals for 3D printers -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 11 16:24:58 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 22:24:58 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/05/2016 20:45, "Paul Koning" wrote: > >> On May 11, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> From: Dave Wade >> >>> I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. >> >> If that's really where it came from, it's a QBUS 11/03. (And IIRC only the >> 780 had a PDP-11 console, although I'm not a VAX expert.) > > Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models > specifically. The 8{3|5}50s our biggest customer used had Pro380 VAX CONSOLES, I remember our main menu system looked odd on them since they had a bitmapped display. I've still got one of them I think, can't remember the last time I powered it up but I'm pretty sure it was running TSX-11. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From derschjo at gmail.com Wed May 11 16:27:49 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 14:27:49 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 2:24 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 11/05/2016 20:45, "Paul Koning" wrote: > > > > >> On May 11, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> > >>> From: Dave Wade > >> > >>> I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. > >> > >> If that's really where it came from, it's a QBUS 11/03. (And IIRC only > the > >> 780 had a PDP-11 console, although I'm not a VAX expert.) > > > > Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models > > specifically. > > The 8{3|5}50s our biggest customer used had Pro380 VAX CONSOLES, I remember > our main menu system looked odd on them since they had a bitmapped display. > I've still got one of them I think, can't remember the last time I powered > it up but I'm pretty sure it was running TSX-11. > While we're on that subject -- I have a friend locally with an 8550 that's missing the console Pro-380 system; if anyone happens to have one (with the appropriate VAX interface hardware) drop me a line... - Josh > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From james at attfield.co.uk Wed May 11 15:58:01 2016 From: james at attfield.co.uk (James Attfield) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 21:58:01 +0100 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? Message-ID: <000c01d1abc7$ce4401a0$6acc04e0$@attfield.co.uk> > Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 07:05:52 -0400 > From: Corey Cohen > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 > with CP/M 1.4 > > Thanks, > Corey My goto C for CP/M was always BDS C which is I believe still available along with source which is now in the public domain. Comart used to develop system stuff with it in the UK for their S-100 stuff before moving to DeSmet C for 8088/86. There is also Aztec C and HiTech C but I don't have any personal knowledge of them or their current availability. James From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 11 16:33:58 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 22:33:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacement for a Corcom F2987A EMI Filter Message-ID: <77070757.1017328.1463002438444.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> I have two failed Corcom filters in two DEC Rainbows. I see some spares available in the US, but shipping to the UK is likely to be prohibitive and I would like if possible to find a modern equivalent. It is this one: http://meci.com/corcom-12-20129-01-emi-line-filter-model-f2987a.html. I am told it isn't enough to know the current rating (2A at 240V) and that it you need to know the source impedance (and the impedance of the load?). Does anyone know the spec for this filter so that I can get a suitable one? Incidentally, when I fix these PSUs, I may be wanting to pass on one of the Rainbows. In this case it would not be free because I had to pay for it (and drive a fair distance to get it too). The one I may pass on is in a vertical pedestal. I may also have a third one to pass on which has a fault on the system board, I don't have a logic analyser capable of helping me to find the fault though. Thanks Rob From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 11 16:52:31 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:52:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, geneb wrote: > Do NOT use SketchUp to create parts for 3D printing. You'll end up with > an STL that's all screwed up. Ah, okay, thanks for this tip. > A good, free tool for this kind of thing would be DesignSpark > Mechanical. It has a workflow similar to SketchUp. Cool. I'm not fond of SketchUp anyhow. I'm switchin'. If you've ever used qcad, I'm wondering what you or others might know/think of it. That one works on my Unix boxes, that's why I ask. It's been flirting with me every since I've seen it appearing in various pkg repos. > That's not a C-64. It's an emulated C-64 with a PC keyboard. :) Heh, sorry, I didn't read it too close. I shoulda known from the keyboard. Plus the screen is too darn small. -Swift From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 11 16:59:31 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 14:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Wed, 11 May 2016, geneb wrote: >> Do NOT use SketchUp to create parts for 3D printing. You'll end up with >> an STL that's all screwed up. > > Ah, okay, thanks for this tip. > NP. If you're going to the Bay Area Maker Faire, stop by the SeeMeCNC booth and say hi. :) >> A good, free tool for this kind of thing would be DesignSpark >> Mechanical. It has a workflow similar to SketchUp. > > Cool. I'm not fond of SketchUp anyhow. I'm switchin'. If you've ever used > qcad, I'm wondering what you or others might know/think of it. That one > works on my Unix boxes, that's why I ask. It's been flirting with me every > since I've seen it appearing in various pkg repos. > I only use SolidWorks. There's nothing out there for MacOS or *nix that I'd spend the effort to throw a brick at. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 11 17:08:22 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 18:08:22 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models >> specifically. > The 8{3|5}50s our biggest customer used had Pro380 VAX CONSOLES Not the 82xx/83xx, but the larger 85xx, 87xx and 88xx... Machines with a Nautilus bus, mostly. The 8200|8250|8300|8350 were more like a VAX-11/750 where the console "processor" was embedded into the CPU. > I remember > our main menu system looked odd on them since they had a bitmapped display. > I've still got one of them I think, can't remember the last time I powered > it up but I'm pretty sure it was running TSX-11. Nope. TSX-11 was not a DEC product. Pro350s and Pro380s (Pro325 didn't have a hard disk) usually ran P/OS, an RSX derivative for the Professional series. You could also get RT-11 for the Pro, as well as VENIX, but when used as a VAX console, it was P/OS and some menus/assets for being a console. It's not hard to repurpose them. -ethan From j at ckrubin.us Wed May 11 17:10:57 2016 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 22:10:57 +0000 Subject: Bags for RK05 disk cartridges Message-ID: Now that I've cleaned a stack of RK05 DECpacks, I want to keep them clean. Ideally, I'd like to find Ziploc-style poly bags like the DEC originals with the warning about dirt on the heads (the famous hair/head picture). I haven't been able to find a match for the original (roughly 16.5" square) but I have a sample of U-Line S-14411, a 6 mil reclosable bag that measures 16 x18. It's just slightly snugger than the original but seems to do the job. Does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks, Jack From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed May 11 17:18:49 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:18:49 -0700 Subject: Bags for RK05 disk cartridges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E3D57A9-F2C1-493F-812C-732FE5A377A3@shiresoft.com> I have a bunch of the originals (with packs in them) but they are showing their age (seams splitting). I?ll have to look at the U-Line bag to see how that works. TTFN - Guy > On May 11, 2016, at 3:10 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > > Now that I've cleaned a stack of RK05 DECpacks, I want to keep them clean. > > Ideally, I'd like to find Ziploc-style poly bags like the DEC originals with the warning about dirt on the heads (the famous hair/head picture). I haven't been able to find a match for the original (roughly 16.5" square) but I have a sample of U-Line S-14411, a 6 mil reclosable bag that measures 16 x18. It's just slightly snugger than the original but seems to do the job. Does anyone have any other suggestions? > > Thanks, > Jack From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 11 17:50:08 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 16:50:08 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Bags for RK05 disk cartridges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, Jack Rubin wrote: > Ideally, I'd like to find Ziploc-style poly bags like the DEC originals > with the warning about dirt on the heads (the famous hair/head picture). I'm guessing with all the DEC gurus on the list you'll find what you are after. However, I can tell you that I've been able to screen print on plastic very effectively in the past. I do screen printing mainly for shirts and other fabric/clothing items. However, I've also used the technique to print on glass etc... I've used PVC inks to print on silicon and plastic before. However, there is a (big) caveat. When you go to cure the ink, you can't wuss-out on the high temp bake (your ink will tell you how hot and for how long). This is enough that it'd melt most plastic, so you need to use heat resistant bags. They are available in lots of different sizes and you can also the edge of a vacuum sealer, or a red-hot blade to create your own sizes by annealing the edges together. Then you screen print on top of that. It'd cost you between $100-$200 bucks to get setup with a pre-stretched screen, photoresist, a bit of ink, a bright light, and a curing/heat wand. So, it's not something I'd recommend just to print the bags. However, once you have the gear, you can find a ton of other places to use it should you have as many hobbies as I do. You can wash out the photoresist and re-use the screen infinitely. You can transfer the design directly to the screen simply by printing a transparent negative, overlaying it on the screen painted with resist, and exposing it. -Swift From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 11 18:05:53 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 00:05:53 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/05/2016 23:08, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: >>> Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models >>> specifically. >> The 8{3|5}50s our biggest customer used had Pro380 VAX CONSOLES > > Not the 82xx/83xx, but the larger 85xx, 87xx and 88xx... Machines with > a Nautilus bus, mostly. The 8200|8250|8300|8350 were more like a > VAX-11/750 where the console "processor" was embedded into the CPU. My memory's getting skewed with age, clearly. I can remember RKG's (Royal Kingdom of Geordies) finest 2 engineers upgrading the 8350s to 8550s and the passage of time has me convinced it was 'only' a backplane swap. I was purely a code monkey back then. One thing that definitely happened was the MD of this company was going to have his new VAXen removed again because they didn't have blinkenlights. > Nope. TSX-11 was not a DEC product. Pro350s and Pro380s (Pro325 > didn't have a hard disk) usually ran P/OS, an RSX derivative for the > Professional series. You could also get RT-11 for the Pro, as well as > VENIX, but when used as a VAX console, it was P/OS and some > menus/assets for being a console. It's not hard to repurpose them. Aaah P/OS! Yes, I think it's all the recent chat on here about TSX-11 that had me thinking that's what was running. The box of floppies I got might contain P/OS disks....Tomorrow I'll grab the RCD socket from the kitchen and plug said console in and will be prepared to be amazed if the RD51 spins up. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bradhodge75 at gmail.com Wed May 11 18:15:58 2016 From: bradhodge75 at gmail.com (Brad H) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 16:15:58 -0700 Subject: Interact Model One Software Message-ID: <194101d1abdb$13ea1330$3bbe3990$@gmail.com> Hi guys, I scored a cheap Interact Model One (original with chiclet keys). It's an interesting piece - much larger than photos suggest. It appears to be somewhat functional (comes up to the press L to load tape screen), however I lack any tapes to load with it. I've not found any archives of tapes for this thing anywhere (I guess being an oddball computer like it is, not much demand). Wondered if anyone out there had one of these and if software was out there? Brad From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed May 11 18:17:57 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 00:17:57 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5733BDA5.4020209@ntlworld.com> On 12/05/16 00:05, Adrian Graham wrote: > > My memory's getting skewed with age, clearly. I can remember RKG's (Royal > Kingdom of Geordies) finest 2 engineers upgrading the 8350s to 8550s and the > passage of time has me convinced it was 'only' a backplane swap. I was > purely a code monkey back then. One thing that definitely happened was the > MD of this company was going to have his new VAXen removed again because > they didn't have blinkenlights. The VAX 8200/8250/8300/8350 was a low-end BI-based system. Put in one CPU and you had a VAX 8200; put in two and you had a VAX8300. There was a mid-life kicker, which was a slightly faster CPU and that gave you the 8250/8350. I'm sure I put three CPUs in the one I had back at DEC and it booted and (this is where I'm hazy) called itself a VAX 8370. The VAX 8500 ("Flounder", someone was definitely "having a larf"...) was a VAX 8550 with NOPs in the microcode. Customers noticed and the NOPs were removed. That made the VAX 8530 iirc. The VAX 8550 was the faster variant in the same box. These systems had a PRO variant for the console. They all used the NMI backplane and so were similar to (but not iirc upgradeable to) the VAX 88x0 series ("Polarstar"). These were all much taller boxes than the VAX 8200 series. BTW: well done for remembering RKG :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 11 18:19:51 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 16:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, alexmcwhirter at triadic.us wrote: > On 2016-05-11 17:59, geneb wrote: >>> >>> Cool. I'm not fond of SketchUp anyhow. I'm switchin'. If you've ever used >>> qcad, I'm wondering what you or others might know/think of it. That one >>> works on my Unix boxes, that's why I ask. It's been flirting with me every >>> since I've seen it appearing in various pkg repos. >>> >> I only use SolidWorks. There's nothing out there for MacOS or *nix >> that I'd spend the effort to throw a brick at. :) >> >> g. > > FreeCad has worked great for all of my printing needs FWIW. Granted i tend to > build structural things, not necessarily pretty things. I did however design > a 1U server case that holds 8 RPi's with a integrated PSU / UltraCap UPS. > I've heard good things about FreeCAD, but only if you're using the nighties. Apparently the "stable" version is way behind feature-wise. A number of people are using Blender for organic shapes, but I don't know how well it outputs STL files. (That and the learning curve is a 90 degree angle.) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 11 18:43:25 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 01:43:25 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: This has been waiting for a reply for too long... On 4 May 2016 at 20:59, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> On 29 April 2016 at 21:06, Sean Conner wrote: >> > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> >> > I read that and it doesn't really seem that CAOS would have been much >> > better than what actually came out. Okay, the potentially better resource >> > tracking would be nice, but that's about it really. >> >> The story of ARX, the unfinished Acorn OS in Modula-2 for the >> then-prototype Archimedes, is similar. >> >> No, it probably wouldn't have been all that radical. >> >> I wonder how much of Amiga OS' famed performance, compactness, etc. >> was a direct result of its adaptation to the MMU-less 68000, and thus >> could never have been implemented in a way that could have been made >> more robust on later chips such as the 68030? > > Part of that was the MMU-less 68000. It certainly made message passing > cheap (since you could just send a pointer and avoid copying the message) Well, yes. I know several Amiga fans who refer to classic AmigaOS as being a de-facto microkernel implementation, but ISTM that that is overly simplistic. The point of microkernels, ISTM, is that the different elements of an OS are in different processes, isolated by memory management, and communicate over defined interfaces to work together to provide the functionality of a conventional monolithic kernel. My reading suggests that one of the biggest problems with this is performance. If they're all in the same memory space, then even if they're functionally separate, they can communicate through shared memory -- meaning that although it might /look/ superficially like a microkernel, the elements are not in fact isolated from one another, so practically, pragmatically, it's not a microkernel. If there is no separation between the cooperating processes, then it's just a question of design aesthetics, rather than it being a microkernel. > but QNX shows that even with copying, you can still have a fast operating > system [1]. Indeed. And of course at one point it looked like QNX would be the basis for the next-gen Amiga OS: http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/qnxanno.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/07/09/qnx_developer_pleas_for_amiga/ http://www.trollaxor.com/2005/06/how-qnx-failed-amiga.html > I think what made the Amiga so fast (even with a 7.1MHz CPU) > was the specialized hardware. You pretty much used the MC68000 to script > the hardware. That seems a bit harsh! :-) >> > I spent some hours on the Urbit site. Between the obscure writing, >> > entirely new jargon and the "we're going to change the world" attitude, >> > it very much feels like the Xanadu Project. >> >> I am not sure I'm the person to try to summarise it. >> >> I've nicked my own effort from my tech blog: >> >> I've not tried Urbit. (Yet.) >> >> But my impression is this: >> >> It's not obfuscatory for the hell of it. It is, yes, but for a valid >> reason: that he doesn't want to waste time explaining or supporting >> it. It's hard because you need to be v v bright to fathom it; >> obscurity is a user filter. > > Red flag #1. Point, yes. But Curtis Yarvin is a strange person, and at least via his pseudonymous mouthpiece Mencius Moldbug, has some unpalatable views. You are, I presume, aware of the controversy over his appearance at LambdaConf this year? E.g. http://www.inc.com/tess-townsend/why-it-matters-that-an-obscure-programming-conference-is-hosting-mencius-moldbug.html >> He claims NOT to be a Lisp type, not to have known anything much about >> the language or LispMs, & to have re-invented some of the underlying >> ideas independently. I'm not sure I believe this. >> >> My view of it from a technical perspective is this. (This may sound >> over-dramatic.) >> >> We are so mired in the C world that modern CPUs are essentially C >> machines. The conceptual model of C, of essentially all compilers, OSes, >> imperative languages, &c. is a flawed one -- it is too simple an >> abstraction. Q.v. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 > > Ah yes, Stanislav. Yet anohther person who goes on and on about how bad > things are and makes oblique references to a better way without ever going > into detail and expecting everyone to read his mind (yes, I don't have a > high opinion of him either). I gather. He did, at one point, express fairly clearly what he wanted. The problem is that he then changed his mind, went off on various tangents concerning designing his own CPU, and seems to have got mired in that. Reminds me of Charles Babbage and his failure to produce a finalised Difference Engine, because at first he got distracted by tweaking it, and later distracted by the Analytical Engine. If he'd focussed on delivering the DE, it would have paid for the AE, and the world would be a profoundly different place today. > And you do realize that Stanislav does not think highly of Urbit (he > considers Yarvin as being deluded [2]). I do. Honestly, I suspect some of this is down to NIH syndrome, some to jealousy, and some to the fact that Yarvin has an explicit agenda which Stanislav does not share. >> Instead of bytes & blocks of them, the basic unit is the list. >> Operations are defined in terms of lists, not bytes. You define a few >> very simple operations & that's all you need. > > Nice in theory. Glacial performance in practice. Everything was glacial once. We've had 4 decades of very well-funded R&D aimed at producing faster C machines. Oddly, x86 has remained ahead of the pack and most of the RISC families ended up sidelined, except ARM. Funny how things turn out. 3.5 decades of investment in x86 has produced some amazingly fast, capable chips. If we'd had 4 decades of effort aimed at fast Lisp Machines, I think we'd have them. Kalman Reti has an interesting presentation on Lisp Machines on Youtube -- if you've not seen it, it's linked from this relevant discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10255276 As he puts it, when Symbolics assembled its own single-chip processor, it achieved a task of such complexity that the only comparable effort he was aware of was DEC's development of the MicroVAX CPU. And Symbolics achieved this with a single-digit-sized development team, whereas DEC had a 3-digit sized team and took several years to do it. >> The way LispMs worked, AIUI, is that the machine language wasn't Lisp, >> it was something far simpler, but designed to map onto Lisp concepts. >> >> I have been told that modern CPU design & optimisations & so on map >> really poorly onto this set of primitives. That LispM CPUs were stack >> machines, but modern processors are register machines. I am not >> competent to judge the truth of this. > > The Lisp machines had tagged memory to help with the garbage collection > and avoid wasting tons of memory. Yeah, it also had CPU instructions like > CAR and CDR (even the IBM 704 had those [4]). Even the VAX nad QUEUE > instructions to add and remove items from a linked list. I think it's > really the tagged memory that made the Lisp machines special. We have 64-bit machines now. GPUs are wider still. I think we could afford a few tag bits. >> If Yarvin's claims are to be believed, he has done 2 intertwined things: >> >> [1] Experimentally or theoretically worked out something akin to these >> primitives. >> [2] Found or worked out a way to map them onto modern CPUs. > > List comprehension I believe. > >> This is his "machine code". Something that is not directly connected >> or associated with modern CPUs' machine languages. He has built >> something OTHER but defined his own odd language to describe it & >> implement it. He has DELIBERATELY made it unlike anything else so you >> don't bring across preconceptions & mental impurities. You need to >> start over. > > Eh. I see that, and raise you a purely functional (as in---pure > functions, no data) implementation of FizzBuzz: > > https://codon.com/programming-with-nothing > >> But, as far as I can judge, the design is sane, clean, & I am taking >> it that he has reasons for the weirdness. I don't think it's >> gratuitous. > > We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I think he's being > intentionally obtuse to appear profound. It could be. I am not sure that I am competent to judge. But I have in my time talked to a few truly brilliant minds, and often, I find that they are obscure and hard to follow simply because their minds move in leaps that lesser minds such as my own cannot follow. I have read comments that whereas Yarvin's original description of Urbit was so full of his own clever wordage that it was almost impossible to follow, but now, as others work on the wiki pages, it's more human-readable, if less inspiring. >> So what on a LispM was the machine language, in Urbit, is Nock. It's a >> whole new machine language layer, placed on top of an existing OS >> stack, so I'm not surprised if it's horrendously inefficient. >> >> Compare with Ternac, a trinary computer implemented as a simulation on >> a binary machine. It's that big a change. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternac >> >> Then, on top of this layer, he's built a new type of OS. This seems to >> have conceptual & architectural analogies with LispM OSes such as >> Genera. Only Yarvin claims not to be a Lisper, so he's re-invented >> that wheel. That is Hoon. >> >> But he has an Agenda. >> >> Popehat explained it well here: >> https://popehat.com/2013/12/06/nock-hoon-etc-for-non-vulcans-why-urbit-matters/ > > Yeah, I read that. Urbit is a functional underpinning. Well, yes, it is, but I personally am not terribly interested in what it underpins. I'm just interested because, coming from a very different basis, and working towards totally different goals, he seems to have come to the same conclusions that I had -- and Stanislav Datskovskiy has, among a very few others. Such a convergence of ideas suggests to me that these powerful ideas are in fact possibly correct. > Of course we need > to burn the disc packs. I don't understand this. If you mean that, in order to get to saner, more productive, more powerful computer architectures, we need to throw away much of what's been built and go right back to building new foundations, then yes, I fear so. But saying that, a lot of today's productive code is in very high-level languages such as Clojure, Python, Ruby and so on. I see no reason that these could not be re-implemented on some hypothetical modern Lisp-based OS, just as OpenGenera could run C, Fortran and so on. Yes, tear down the foundations and rebuild, but top of the new replacement, much existing code could, in principle, be retained and re-used. >> I would be interested in an effort to layer a bare-metal-up LispM-type >> layer on top of x86, ARM, &c. But Yarvin isn't here for the sheer >> techno-wanking. Oh no. He wants to reinvent the world, via the medium >> of encryption, digital currencies, &c. So he has a whole other layer >> on top of Urbit, which is the REASON for Urbit -- a secure, P2P, >> encrypted, next-gen computer system which happens to run on existing >> machines & over the existing Internet, because that's the available >> infrastructure, & whereas it's a horrid mess, it's what is there. You >> can't ignore it, you can't achieve these grandiose goals within it, >> so, you just layer your new stuff over the top. > > So does Stanislav. I don't think he does. AFAICT from extensive reading of loper-os.org, originally, Dastovskiy's intent was to built a LispM-type OS on x86. Then he got distracted by the potential of things like FPGAs and never came back. Tragic, really. > And so did Far? Rideau with TUNES. Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about that. Thanks for the reminder. > But at some point, the electrons need to meet the silicon or else it's > just talk. Lots and lots of talk. Obsfucated talk at that. Well, yes, up to a point. But there are signs that things are actually getting done. Besides Urbit, there are: https://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ http://interim.mntmn.com/ https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano On which note, this discussion is interesting for the contribution from the ex-Apple type: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/10gr05/lisp_based_operating_system_questionproposition/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed May 11 18:54:00 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 19:54:00 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 2016-05-11 7:43 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > ... > If we'd had 4 decades of effort aimed at fast Lisp Machines, I think > we'd have them. Compiled Lisp, even on generic hardware, is fast. Fast enough, in fact, that it obviated Symbolics. (More in Richard P. Gabriel's history of Lucid.) See also: The newly open sourced Chez Scheme. The myths around garbage collection are also thick, but gc doesn't impede efficiency except under conditions of insufficient headroom (long documented by research old and new). --Toby From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 11 19:41:40 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 18:41:40 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <8a9df73e-f754-e6f6-e5a1-2829da68fceb@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/11/2016 5:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-05-11 7:43 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> ... >> If we'd had 4 decades of effort aimed at fast Lisp Machines, I think >> we'd have them. > > Compiled Lisp, even on generic hardware, is fast. Fast enough, in fact, > that it obviated Symbolics. (More in Richard P. Gabriel's history of > Lucid.) See also: The newly open sourced Chez Scheme. But List still sequential processing as far as I can see? How do you speed that up? > The myths around garbage collection are also thick, but gc doesn't > impede efficiency except under conditions of insufficient headroom (long > documented by research old and new). Well GC is every Tuesday here. :) > --Toby Ben. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 11 19:47:04 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 20:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <8a9df73e-f754-e6f6-e5a1-2829da68fceb@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <8a9df73e-f754-e6f6-e5a1-2829da68fceb@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <201605120047.UAA13419@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Compiled Lisp, even on generic hardware, is fast. [...] > But List still sequential processing as far as I can see? How do you > speed that up? Just as sequential as C or PL/I or whatever else. As for speeding it up? As a compiler geek I'm strictly a dilettante, so I don't really know, but I would imagine you'd do it much the way you would optimize any other language. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 11 20:31:51 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 21:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 Message-ID: <20160512013151.02A1018C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Wade > Cards are > M7264 11/03 processor with 4-Kword MOS RAM > M7940 > M9400ye DLV11 Serial Line Unit (system cosole) REV11-E (240-ohm terminators for Q18) QBUS termination is a complex subject; when you have multiple backplane sections, connected by cables, each section has 'termination'. That's what this REV11-E card is; it's also the QBUS 'out' to the card in the 780 CPU which the console -11 uses to control the /780 CPU. Why it's in the middle slot, I'm not sure (unless things have been moved around)? > M8044ee > m7946 MSV11-?? (My list doesn't contain an '-EE', but it's some sort of small MOS memory, Q18) RXV11 (RX01 8" floppy disk controller) In theory, the M8044-EE should be an "MSV11-DE" (not "MSV11-EE", that would be an M8045-EE), but none of my documentation, including the M8044 prints, covers such a variant. Maybe I need to look in the /780 prints, it may be a special variant for use in the /780 console machines. > M8192 LSI-11/73 CPU; a nice machine, if you can eventually get it running. You'll want a bunch more memory (note that the M8044/8045 cards are Q18, and so you can only have up to 256KB with them - they _WILL NOT WORK_ in a system with more than 256KB in it). > Also have loose grant card.... You mean an M9047? I would start with just the 11/03 CPU and the console card; hook it up to something, and see if you can get it to talk to the console. (Configure the CPU to halt, and fall into Console ODT, on power-on.) It's probably worth getting one of the various LSI-11 CPU handbooks: Microcomputer Handbook (1976-77) Microcomputer Processors (1978-79) Microcomputer Processor Handbook (1979-80) Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1981) Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1982) they all cover the quad-width 11/03 CPU. Although they're probably available online, it's very handy to have a hard-copy one; those are available on eBay and such. That backplane is probably a so-called 'serpentine' backplane, i.e. ones in which the (dual) slots are numbered: 1 2 4 3 5 6 8 7 so the console would need to go in '3' if it's the only card other than the CPU (at least, if you want it to be able to do interrupts). Once you get it working in that configuration, you can configure and add the memory card (if you can figure out what the devil it is ;-). And then the RX01 controller. The REV-11 isn't needed in this configuration. The boot PROM for this machine was actually on the card in the /780 CPU, so eventually you'll need a replacement - something like a BDV11 or something (they are available, and not too expensive). > From: Robert Jarratt > The seller said it was indeed out of a 780. Yeah, that's what it looks like. > I got the impression the 11/23 card was just a spare he had that he put > in the enclosure, not really part of the original system. Actually, an 11/73, but yes, definitely not part of the original system. I don't know if it will work in that backplane without the backplane being upgraded from Q18; it might, but that would need some investigation. Noel From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 11 20:58:36 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 18:58:36 -0700 Subject: Tape reader Message-ID: Does anyone here know how to order this device? It seems to still possibly be offered, but I am not sure how to order it. I'm not sure if the person is on the list, if so you can reply off list. Looked for faq or shopping or buy pointer, didn't find one. thanks JIm http://retropcdesign.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6 From j at ckrubin.us Wed May 11 21:20:22 2016 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 02:20:22 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/A 128K memory - M8417 or M8418? Message-ID: I've been looking for a 128K MOS memory board for my PDP-8/A for a while. I finally got one, but it turned out to be an M8418. The docs I've seen (bitsavers EK-MS8CD-TM-001, 1980 + printsets) talk about an M8417 with 4k DRAM chips (MS8-C) and an M8417 with 16k DRAM chips (MS8-D), but apparently at some point the 16k versions became known as the M8418. The card I received has 96 Fujitsu MB8116E 16k DRAMs, arranged in two 8 x 12 chip arrays. The actual circuit board says PDP MOS MEMORY - M8417 - 50 12701B on the back but the metal card ejector edge is stamped M8418 JC. Chip dates on the board put it at 1980 production. None of my literature has the M8418 p/n but most of it may be too old. The M8418 part number (with JC suffix to indicate Fujitsu RAM) does show up in the 1988 Options Module List. I know several list members have similar boards. How are they marked? Can anyone point to more info on the M8418? Thanks, Jack From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 11 22:12:11 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 23:12:11 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A 128K memory - M8417 or M8418? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > I've been looking for a 128K MOS memory board for my PDP-8/A for a while. I finally got one, but it turned out to be an M8418. Huh... I'm not sure I've seen that version. > The docs I've seen (bitsavers EK-MS8CD-TM-001, 1980 + printsets) talk about an M8417 with 4k DRAM chips (MS8-C) and an M8417 with 16k DRAM chips (MS8-D), Right... I remember the MS8DJ in particular as the full part number for the 128K MOS board. > ...but apparently at some point the 16k versions became known as the M8418. The card I received has 96 Fujitsu MB8116E 16k DRAMs, arranged in two 8 x 12 chip arrays. The actual circuit board says PDP MOS MEMORY - M8417 - 50 12701B on the back but the metal card ejector edge is stamped M8418 JC. Chip dates on the board put it at 1980 production. OK... then that sounds like a later change to help easily distinguish the 16K/32K boards from the 128K boards, rather than a stamped "D" or "C" on one of the handle sections. > None of my literature has the M8418 p/n but most of it may be too old. The M8418 part number (with JC suffix to indicate Fujitsu RAM) does show up in the 1988 Options Module List. Well then it sounds like a real thing that lasted long enough to make the list. > I know several list members have similar boards. How are they marked? Can anyone point to more info on the M8418? I haven't stared at mine in many years, but I'm fairly certain I have an M8417 with "DJ" stamped on the other part of the handle. I would have gotten it from a 3rd-party reseller like Newman Computer Exchange in the late 1980s (I got the PDP-8/a in 1984 but wouldn't have upped it to 128K right away - I was buying a lot of used PDP-8 gear between 1985 and 1987). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 11 22:29:33 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 23:29:33 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A 128K memory - M8417 or M8418? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > I've been looking for a 128K MOS memory board for my PDP-8/A for a while...an M8418. > > None of my literature has the M8418 p/n but most of it may be too old... I found one reference... in: PDP8A_Schems_Apr81.pdf page 199 of 216 At the top of the page, it says... "P A R T S L I S T SHEET C1 of C3" ... and further down, it says... LINE ITEM DOCUMENT NUMBER PART NUMBER DESCRIPTION . . 3 3 5012701-00 ETCH BOARD (M8418).... All other mentions in the file are M8417. -ethan From pete at petelancashire.com Wed May 11 17:22:26 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:22:26 -0700 Subject: Bags for RK05 disk cartridges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Zip-Lock brand has some large size bags Google Large Zip Lock bags On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > Now that I've cleaned a stack of RK05 DECpacks, I want to keep them clean. > > Ideally, I'd like to find Ziploc-style poly bags like the DEC originals with the warning about dirt on the heads (the famous hair/head picture). I haven't been able to find a match for the original (roughly 16.5" square) but I have a sample of U-Line S-14411, a 6 mil reclosable bag that measures 16 x18. It's just slightly snugger than the original but seems to do the job. Does anyone have any other suggestions? > > Thanks, > Jack > From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Wed May 11 17:20:12 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 18:20:12 -0400 Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-05-11 17:59, geneb wrote: >> >> Cool. I'm not fond of SketchUp anyhow. I'm switchin'. If you've ever >> used >> qcad, I'm wondering what you or others might know/think of it. That >> one >> works on my Unix boxes, that's why I ask. It's been flirting with me >> every >> since I've seen it appearing in various pkg repos. >> > I only use SolidWorks. There's nothing out there for MacOS or *nix > that I'd spend the effort to throw a brick at. :) > > g. FreeCad has worked great for all of my printing needs FWIW. Granted i tend to build structural things, not necessarily pretty things. I did however design a 1U server case that holds 8 RPi's with a integrated PSU / UltraCap UPS. From michael.roy.barnes at gmail.com Wed May 11 18:25:35 2016 From: michael.roy.barnes at gmail.com (Mike Barnes) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 19:25:35 -0400 Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Has anyone used a 3D printer to make a case for their old machine ? I've > started drafting an SGI Indy "skin" in Sketch, but it's just a box right > now, nothing cool. Not an actual old machine, but I did a mini-blinkenlights replica of an HP-2100 system that has an Odroid-C1 in one of the boxes and uses simH to emulate HP Access (see https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikebikes/22213398140). Each box was bigger than my printer (Makerbot Rep2), so had to be built in pieces and assembled using thermoplastic inserts. There's also a black 3d printed light tunnel inside to keep the lights from leaking to the adjacent lights. This design was done using OpenSCAD (http://www.openscad.org). For almost all of my designs these days, I use Onshape (https://cad.onshape.com). Both have their uses. Onshape has a learning curve, but is extremely powerful. Mike From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu May 12 01:44:14 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 08:44:14 +0200 Subject: VAX 83xx [Was: Re: PDP-11] In-Reply-To: <5733BDA5.4020209@ntlworld.com> References: <5733BDA5.4020209@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20160512064413.GB7691@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 12:17:57AM +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > The VAX 8200/8250/8300/8350 was a low-end BI-based system. > Put in one CPU and you had a VAX 8200; put in two and you had a VAX8300. > There was a mid-life kicker, which was a slightly faster CPU and that gave > you > the 8250/8350. I'm sure I put three CPUs in the one I had back at DEC and > it booted and (this is where I'm hazy) called itself a VAX 8370. > I'm about to pick up an 8350 which the previous owner says has four cpus and calls it an 8354. I can report back later in the summer after I have picked it up. /P From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu May 12 01:50:24 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 23:50:24 -0700 Subject: News about hpmuseum.net In-Reply-To: <573251D6.6090902@gmail.com> References: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <573251D6.6090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is great news despite the sorrow. Thank you for that, the museum is such an awesome resource for HP collectors. I saw your video on the 2116 restoration were both Jon and you appear. We have at least one more at the CHM, just as a static display for now. I hope I can visit you in Melbourne one day. Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 10, 2016, at 2:25 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > The following was posted on hpmuseum.org this morning: > > *RE: Jon Johnston Passes * > As an update to the sad news of Jon Johnston's death, I can advise that the HP museum and the hpmuseum.net website he built will be continued and maintained for the foreseeable future. > > Over the last 8 months I have worked with Jon in restoring items from his collection of equipment and, among a range of items, recently restored an HP2116A computer to working order - one of only two Jon was aware of in the world and the only one that's operational. > > At this stage we have not been able to access the website and put any notices or updates but that should be addressed shortly. > > Jon's wife has asked me to look after the museum and website for the foreseeable future and as much as possible, continue to develop the museum in line with Jon's vision and objectives. > > As a short background, I joined HP Australia in 1982 as a Customer Engineer maintaining HP3000s, HP250s, all peripherals, terminals etc. I stayed with HP for over 26 years (including 5 years in Palo Alto) in a range of Services roles and have many fond memories of the company and the people I worked with. > > While my ability to invest time into the museum is more limited than Jon's, I hope to honour both his memory and the legacy of the 'old HP' by keeping the museum going as best I can, hopefully with help from the HP interest groups across the world. > > David Collins > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu May 12 01:55:21 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 02:55:21 -0400 Subject: News about hpmuseum.net Message-ID: <55c934.19c14b51.446582d9@aol.com> I am glad to see this effort of Jon's remain Independent. I believe he would have wanted it that way. Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 5/11/2016 11:50:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com writes: This is great news despite the sorrow. Thank you for that, the museum is such an awesome resource for HP collectors. I saw your video on the 2116 restoration were both Jon and you appear. We have at least one more at the CHM, just as a static display for now. I hope I can visit you in Melbourne one day. Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 10, 2016, at 2:25 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > The following was posted on hpmuseum.org this morning: > > *RE: Jon Johnston Passes * > As an update to the sad news of Jon Johnston's death, I can advise that the HP museum and the hpmuseum.net website he built will be continued and maintained for the foreseeable future. > > Over the last 8 months I have worked with Jon in restoring items from his collection of equipment and, among a range of items, recently restored an HP2116A computer to working order - one of only two Jon was aware of in the world and the only one that's operational. > > At this stage we have not been able to access the website and put any notices or updates but that should be addressed shortly. > > Jon's wife has asked me to look after the museum and website for the foreseeable future and as much as possible, continue to develop the museum in line with Jon's vision and objectives. > > As a short background, I joined HP Australia in 1982 as a Customer Engineer maintaining HP3000s, HP250s, all peripherals, terminals etc. I stayed with HP for over 26 years (including 5 years in Palo Alto) in a range of Services roles and have many fond memories of the company and the people I worked with. > > While my ability to invest time into the museum is more limited than Jon's, I hope to honour both his memory and the legacy of the 'old HP' by keeping the museum going as best I can, hopefully with help from the HP interest groups across the world. > > David Collins > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 12 02:21:31 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 08:21:31 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20160512013151.02A1018C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160512013151.02A1018C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01df01d1ac1e$e8d5d820$ba818860$@gmail.com> > > Also have loose grant card.... > > You mean an M9047? > Small card, looks like it fits deep in bus. Sorry didn't get number and machine is not accessible at present > > I would start with just the 11/03 CPU and the console card; hook it up to > something, and see if you can get it to talk to the console. (Configure the CPU > to halt, and fall into Console ODT, on power-on.) > Any clues on where I can find pin-outs for making a cable. I have looked at the LSI-11 Systems Service Manual on Bitsavers and it has everything except... > It's probably worth getting one of the various LSI-11 CPU handbooks: > > Microcomputer Handbook (1976-77) > Microcomputer Processors (1978-79) > Microcomputer Processor Handbook (1979-80) > Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1981) > Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1982) > > they all cover the quad-width 11/03 CPU. Although they're probably available > online, it's very handy to have a hard-copy one; those are available on eBay and > such. > I will check Bitsavers etc. > That backplane is probably a so-called 'serpentine' backplane, i.e. ones in which > the (dual) slots are numbered: > > 1 2 > 4 3 > 5 6 > 8 7 > > so the console would need to go in '3' if it's the only card other than the CPU (at > least, if you want it to be able to do interrupts). > > Once you get it working in that configuration, you can configure and add the > memory card (if you can figure out what the devil it is ;-). And then the > RX01 controller. > OK will do > The REV-11 isn't needed in this configuration. The boot PROM for this machine > was actually on the card in the /780 CPU, so eventually you'll need a > replacement - something like a BDV11 or something (they are available, and > not too expensive). > I will look for one of those. > > > From: Robert Jarratt > > > The seller said it was indeed out of a 780. > > Yeah, that's what it looks like. > > > I got the impression the 11/23 card was just a spare he had that he put > > in the enclosure, not really part of the original system. > > Actually, an 11/73, but yes, definitely not part of the original system. I don't > know if it will work in that backplane without the backplane being upgraded > from Q18; it might, but that would need some investigation. Well I won't try it until I have the rest working > > Noel Thanks, Dave From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 12 07:21:10 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 08:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 Message-ID: <20160512122110.4902D18C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Wade > Small card, looks like it fits deep in bus. If it is a QBUS grant continuity card, it will have two looped-back pin pairs (the QBUS has two grant lines - DMA and interrupt) on the back-side, with a blank pin between them. (AM2-AN2 and AR2-AS2, to be exact.) > Any clues on where I can find pin-outs for making a cable. All the DEC 40-pin serial line headers have the same pintout, AFAIK. So you can use any of the manuals for the DL11, e.g. EK-DL11-OP-001, available widely, e.g.: http://vaxhaven.com/images/4/42/EK-DL11-OP-001.pdf which uses that same pinout, and has it in great detail, for making a cable. Those directions produce at DTE cable - if you want to produce a DCE (suitable for plugging into another computer), you need to reverse RD and TD, etc. Noel From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 12 08:09:58 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 06:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, Mike Barnes wrote: > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: >> Has anyone used a 3D printer to make a case for their old machine ? I've >> started drafting an SGI Indy "skin" in Sketch, but it's just a box right >> now, nothing cool. > > Not an actual old machine, but I did a mini-blinkenlights replica of an > HP-2100 system that has an Odroid-C1 in one of the boxes and uses simH to > emulate HP Access (see https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikebikes/22213398140). > Each box was bigger than my printer (Makerbot Rep2), so had to be built in > pieces and assembled using thermoplastic inserts. There's also a black 3d > printed light tunnel inside to keep the lights from leaking to the adjacent > lights. > That's really slick! Condolences on owning a takerbot. :) > This design was done using OpenSCAD (http://www.openscad.org). For almost > all of my designs these days, I use Onshape (https://cad.onshape.com). Both > have their uses. Onshape has a learning curve, but is extremely powerful. > Mike > OpenSCAD always struck me as a poor programming language masquerading as an even worse parametric design tool, but some folks seem to enjoy it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From davidk.collins at bigpond.com Thu May 12 10:21:33 2016 From: davidk.collins at bigpond.com (David Collins) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 01:21:33 +1000 Subject: News about hpmuseum.net In-Reply-To: References: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <573251D6.6090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015c01d1ac61$f8325b70$e8971250$@bigpond.com> Thanks Marc, much appreciated. Happy to host you if you ever make if down this way. David Collins -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sent: Thursday, 12 May 2016 4:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Verdiell Marc Subject: Re: News about hpmuseum.net This is great news despite the sorrow. Thank you for that, the museum is such an awesome resource for HP collectors. I saw your video on the 2116 restoration were both Jon and you appear. We have at least one more at the CHM, just as a static display for now. I hope I can visit you in Melbourne one day. Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 10, 2016, at 2:25 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > The following was posted on hpmuseum.org this morning: > > *RE: Jon Johnston Passes * > As an update to the sad news of Jon Johnston's death, I can advise that the HP museum and the hpmuseum.net website he built will be continued and maintained for the foreseeable future. > > Over the last 8 months I have worked with Jon in restoring items from his collection of equipment and, among a range of items, recently restored an HP2116A computer to working order - one of only two Jon was aware of in the world and the only one that's operational. > > At this stage we have not been able to access the website and put any notices or updates but that should be addressed shortly. > > Jon's wife has asked me to look after the museum and website for the foreseeable future and as much as possible, continue to develop the museum in line with Jon's vision and objectives. > > As a short background, I joined HP Australia in 1982 as a Customer Engineer maintaining HP3000s, HP250s, all peripherals, terminals etc. I stayed with HP for over 26 years (including 5 years in Palo Alto) in a range of Services roles and have many fond memories of the company and the people I worked with. > > While my ability to invest time into the museum is more limited than Jon's, I hope to honour both his memory and the legacy of the 'old HP' by keeping the museum going as best I can, hopefully with help from the HP interest groups across the world. > > David Collins > From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 12 11:44:12 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 18:44:12 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > Having just programmed some 24SA10's a couple of weeks back on a Data I/O > 29B, I can report that you should be fine... > > Thanks. Just programmed it and put it into place. The machine now passes the very basic test "looping in the registers" described in the maintenance section. Need to verify the correct behavior of the other diagnostics until I consider it OK. But so far so good. /Mattis From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu May 12 11:54:06 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 09:54:06 -0700 Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware Message-ID: I know this is a long shot, but these have been on my list for a while. I am located in Seattle but am not opposed to arranging freight or local pick-up. Would like to purchase but would also consider trades. Thanks, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ethan at 757.org Thu May 12 12:13:33 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 13:13:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I know this is a long shot, but these have been on my list for a while. > I am located in Seattle but am not opposed to arranging freight or local > pick-up. > Would like to purchase but would also consider trades. > Thanks, > - Ian Years ago I gave away my 4d/480VGX... and I think the guy asked if I wanted it back. Do you want me to find his contact info? It's a larger box, Challenge XL sized. Brown with 8 LED bar graphs for CPU load of the eight R3000 processors. My second SGI. *swoon* -- Ethan O'Toole From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu May 12 12:42:18 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 17:42:18 +0000 Subject: Myths about Lisp [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED20A62@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: ben Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 5:42 PM > On 5/11/2016 5:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2016-05-11 7:43 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> If we'd had 4 decades of effort aimed at fast Lisp Machines, I think >>> we'd have them. >> Compiled Lisp, even on generic hardware, is fast. Fast enough, in fact, >> that it obviated Symbolics. (More in Richard P. Gabriel's history of >> Lucid.) See also: The newly open sourced Chez Scheme. > But List still sequential processing as far as I can see? How do you > speed that up? This is another of the long-standing myths perpetuated by people who know nothing about the language. It has literally been decades since lists were the only data structure available in Lisp. If you need non-sequential access to process data, arrays are the ticket, or hashes. Choose the best data structure for to problem at hand. (Similarly, data types other than atoms have been around since the very earliest LISP. They just weren't sexy, and didn't get a lot of press since they weren't novel and difficult to understand. Math code from the MACLISP compiler was better than that generated by the F40 FORTRAN compiler.) >> The myths around garbage collection are also thick, but gc doesn't >> impede efficiency except under conditions of insufficient headroom (long >> documented by research old and new). > Well GC is every Tuesday here. :) You joke, but in one of the visionary papers on GC from the early 70s, a tongue-in-cheek scenario was proposed in which GC was done by a portable system which had sufficient memory would visit large facilities to do background GC for them on, say, a monthly basis. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu May 12 12:49:36 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 19:49:36 +0200 Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160512174936.GA29708@Update.UU.SE> If anyone on the european side of things has a twin tower I would be all over it. 12 slots preffered but beggars can't be choosers. A rebranded system such as Prime would do too. While I'm dreaming, I've been looking for an SGI Espressigo for a while. It's the only retro machine my wife has agreed to letting me keep in the house :) /P On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 09:54:06AM -0700, Ian Finder wrote: > I know this is a long shot, but these have been on my list for a while. > > I am located in Seattle but am not opposed to arranging freight or local > pick-up. > > Would like to purchase but would also consider trades. > > Thanks, > > - Ian > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 12 12:50:16 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 11:50:16 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Brown with 8 LED bar graphs for CPU load of the eight R3000 processors. Ah.... a sweet machine. That was the machine that I believe "woke up" SGI to really take IRIX and their industrial design to the next level. My all time favorite machine is still the Indigo (1). Something about the espresso machine shape and seeing one decked out with a DAT etc.. very cool. I just wish it didn't have a *cussword* proprietary keyboard and mouse. -Swift From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 12 13:09:59 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 20:09:59 +0200 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: <20160326165736.A063718C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160326165736.A063718C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-03-26 17:57 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa : > OK, so we already had a dump of the M9301-YA ROMs, but were (apparently) > missing the others? > > So I fnally got one of my UNIBUS 11's running, and whipped up a small > program > to dump the ROM contents, and now have the -YB, -YF and -YH ROMs dumped. > I'm > in the process of disassembling them now. > I also have a YF card. It came from a PDP-11/10 and was sitting in location slot 3. I put it into my NC and there were no smoke coming out anywhere... I could access the contents but it didn't run very well. So either the CPU is still bad or the PROM contents are bad. Could you please direct me to your YF dumps so I could compare? Intel HEX would be fine. If you also have done a disassembly that would be very interesting. Thanks! > > (If anyone needs the contents in binary format, to blow new ROMs, let me > know, > and I can probably produce them if you give me the details on the format > you > need the data in.) > > Does anyone have any of the others - YC, YD, YE and YJ? > > If you're not up to dumping them, I can send you my small program > (currently > in .LDA format, but I can convert it to a script - it is not very long at > all > - for the console emulator in the M9301 series), which will do it - it > produces packed octal output, 8 words/line, so a very small output. > /Mattis > > Noel > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 12 13:24:53 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 13:24:53 -0500 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: References: <20160326165736.A063718C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <000601d1ac7b$946d4900$bd47db00$@classiccmp.org> Do the M9312 roms help? www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/M9312 J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 1:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Noel Chiappa Subject: Re: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps 2016-03-26 17:57 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa : > OK, so we already had a dump of the M9301-YA ROMs, but were > (apparently) missing the others? > > So I fnally got one of my UNIBUS 11's running, and whipped up a small > program to dump the ROM contents, and now have the -YB, -YF and -YH > ROMs dumped. > I'm > in the process of disassembling them now. > I also have a YF card. It came from a PDP-11/10 and was sitting in location slot 3. I put it into my NC and there were no smoke coming out anywhere... I could access the contents but it didn't run very well. So either the CPU is still bad or the PROM contents are bad. Could you please direct me to your YF dumps so I could compare? Intel HEX would be fine. If you also have done a disassembly that would be very interesting. Thanks! > > (If anyone needs the contents in binary format, to blow new ROMs, let > me know, and I can probably produce them if you give me the details on > the format you need the data in.) > > Does anyone have any of the others - YC, YD, YE and YJ? > > If you're not up to dumping them, I can send you my small program > (currently in .LDA format, but I can convert it to a script - it is > not very long at all > - for the console emulator in the M9301 series), which will do it - it > produces packed octal output, 8 words/line, so a very small output. > /Mattis > > Noel > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 12 13:54:22 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 19:54:22 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <5733BDA5.4020209@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 12/05/2016 00:17, "Antonio Carlini" wrote: > On 12/05/16 00:05, Adrian Graham wrote: >> >> My memory's getting skewed with age, clearly. I can remember RKG's (Royal >> Kingdom of Geordies) finest 2 engineers upgrading the 8350s to 8550s and the >> passage of time has me convinced it was 'only' a backplane swap. I was >> purely a code monkey back then. One thing that definitely happened was the >> MD of this company was going to have his new VAXen removed again because >> they didn't have blinkenlights. > > The VAX 8200/8250/8300/8350 was a low-end BI-based system. > Put in one CPU and you had a VAX 8200; put in two and you had a VAX8300. > There was a mid-life kicker, which was a slightly faster CPU and that > gave you > the 8250/8350. I'm sure I put three CPUs in the one I had back at DEC and > it booted and (this is where I'm hazy) called itself a VAX 8370 OK, the mists of time are clearing, there was definite a cabinet swap at one point and I can recall wheeling some smaller cabs out into the warehouse because they'd been replaced by the 85xx cabs. The smaller ones hadn't lasted very long IIRC. This was the reason for the 85xx being threatened with removal, along with the blinkenlights. > VAX 8530 iirc. The VAX 8550 was the faster variant in the same box. > These systems > had a PRO variant for the console. They all used the NMI backplane and > so were > similar to (but not iirc upgradeable to) the VAX 88x0 series ("Polarstar"). Gotcha. > > These were all much taller boxes than the VAX 8200 series. > > BTW: well done for remembering RKG :-) My second home for a long while and I'm still friends with the engineers, Allan, Aiden, Alan, Mike, John etc. We had ales aplenty last year :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 12 14:01:23 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 21:01:23 +0200 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: <000601d1ac7b$946d4900$bd47db00$@classiccmp.org> References: <20160326165736.A063718C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000601d1ac7b$946d4900$bd47db00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: 2016-05-12 20:24 GMT+02:00 Jay West : > Do the M9312 roms help? > > www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/M9312 > > > Unfortunately not. They are entirely different. M9301 is four PROMs that provide a 16 bit word but M9312 is four boot ROMS and one console emulator ROM that are are separated. There are logic that converts the unibus transaction into many 4 bit transactions. Thereby one can easily plugin another boostrap by just changing a PROM. With M9301 you had several different M9301 module, YA .. Yx /Mattis From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 12 14:12:08 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 15:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps Message-ID: <20160512191208.7871A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > I also have a YF card. ... I could access the contents but it didn't > run very well. So either the CPU is still bad or the PROM contents are > bad. Could you please direct me to your YF dumps so I could compare? They are on my "Miscellaneous Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11 Information" page: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html in the "ROM Dumps" section. > If you also have done a disassembly that would be very interesting. I haven't completely disassembled the -YF version, but the -YA is almost all done, so it should help. Let me know if you need to have the -YF fully disassmbled & commented, and I'll hop to it. Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 12 14:24:41 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 21:24:41 +0200 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: <20160512191208.7871A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160512191208.7871A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-05-12 21:12 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa : > > From: Mattis Lind > > > I also have a YF card. ... I could access the contents but it didn't > > run very well. So either the CPU is still bad or the PROM contents > are > > bad. Could you please direct me to your YF dumps so I could compare? > > They are on my "Miscellaneous Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11 > Information" page: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html > > in the "ROM Dumps" section. > Perfect! I'll have a look. > > > If you also have done a disassembly that would be very interesting. > > I haven't completely disassembled the -YF version, but the -YA is almost > all > done, so it should help. > > Let me know if you need to have the -YF fully disassmbled & commented, and > I'll hop to it. > Very kind offer. It would be very nice with a listing if you have the time! > > Noel > /Mattis From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 12 14:54:53 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 21:54:53 +0200 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: References: <20160512191208.7871A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-05-12 21:24 GMT+02:00 Mattis Lind : > > > 2016-05-12 21:12 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa : > >> > From: Mattis Lind >> >> > I also have a YF card. ... I could access the contents but it didn't >> > run very well. So either the CPU is still bad or the PROM contents >> are >> > bad. Could you please direct me to your YF dumps so I could compare? >> >> They are on my "Miscellaneous Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11 >> Information" page: >> >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html >> >> in the "ROM Dumps" section. >> > > Perfect! I'll have a look. > > >> >> > If you also have done a disassembly that would be very interesting. >> >> I haven't completely disassembled the -YF version, but the -YA is almost >> all >> done, so it should help. >> >> Let me know if you need to have the -YF fully disassmbled & commented, and >> I'll hop to it. >> > > Very kind offer. It would be very nice with a listing if you have the time! > I checked the contents in the machine versus your listing. Two locations have the high bit set for some reason, 165020 read 100501 and 165032 reads 106303. Trying to run halts the machine with 165102 in the front panel. Single stepping it it will step to 165106 but become non-responsive with the lights at 165106. I think this is because it had a bus fault. If I press START it will clear it up. So for now, it is not necessary with more disassembly. Unless you have som spare time of course. The fault occur in the lines which you already have done... You don't have a dump of the PROMs in Intel HEX? I need to reprogram a new chips since one seems to be failing. /Mattis From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu May 12 15:49:20 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 13:49:20 -0700 Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Man, I'd LOVE to have one of those. Sadly, I think I don't have the space. I'll have to stick to desk-side-ish machines. There is already an XL SGI (Terminator ONYX) in the garage. :( On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Thu, 12 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > Brown with 8 LED bar graphs for CPU load of the eight R3000 processors. > > Ah.... a sweet machine. That was the machine that I believe "woke up" SGI > to really take IRIX and their industrial design to the next level. My all > time favorite machine is still the Indigo (1). Something about the > espresso machine shape and seeing one decked out with a DAT etc.. very > cool. I just wish it didn't have a *cussword* proprietary keyboard and > mouse. > > -Swift > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 12 16:17:15 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 17:17:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps Message-ID: <20160512211715.05B1B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Re: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps > From: Mattis Lind > I checked the contents in the machine versus your listing. And now that I think of it, I wonder if the ROM in the board I dumped had any errors? I have two, I should dump the other one and compare - but I forget which one I dumped, and I fried one of them! :-( The board did 'work', but I only used the console emulator, and the serial line loader, so there might be an error elsewhere (e.g. in one of the disk bootstraps). > Two locations have the high bit set for some reason, 165020 read 100501 > and 165032 reads 106303. Well, the second is definitely wrong; not sure about the first, I'd have to figure out what it's doing with that data word. > Trying to run halts the machine with 165102 in the front panel. That's odd, that doesn't make any sense. > Single stepping it it will step to 165106 but become non-responsive > with the lights at 165106. Hmm, does that mean that it actually froze at 165102, or at 165106? (I.e. is the display the address of the current instruction, or the next one?) > I think this is because it had a bus fault. That shouldn't freeze the machine - unless you had a double bus fault (i.e. trying to push and old PS/PC, and the SP is gubbish). Try loading the SP with the address of some working memory before you start the test, and see what happens. You might also deposit 6/0/12/0 in locations 4-12, so that if it does see an illegal instruction or NXM, it will just halt. > So for now, it is not necessary with more disassembly. Unless you have > som spare time of course. Well, I'll keep working on it anyway. > You don't have a dump of the PROMs in Intel HEX? No, but I do have a un-annotated dump in octal. Can you point me at a description of Intel HEX format, so I can whip up a converter program? (Which will also take an array of PDP-11 words, and split it up into the 4 different ROM chips, since each word is spread across all 4 chips.) I already have a program to read my octal dump things, so I'll just have to tweak that a bit. I'm going to need to start blowing ROMs soon (including some sets of 9301-YF PROMs, for the one I zorched), once I get my 29B hooked up, so I might as well start with this... Noel From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 12 16:25:15 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 14:25:15 -0700 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: <20160512211715.05B1B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160512211715.05B1B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On May 12, 2016 2:17 PM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > > You don't have a dump of the PROMs in Intel HEX? > > No, but I do have a un-annotated dump in octal. Can you point me at a > description of Intel HEX format, so I can whip up a converter program? (Which > will also take an array of PDP-11 words, and split it up into the 4 different > ROM chips, since each word is spread across all 4 chips.) I already have a > program to read my octal dump things, so I'll just have to tweak that a bit. > Or you could just use the SRecord tool package to convert between binary / Intel hex / Motorala hex, and split and join images, among just about anything else you would want to do. http://srecord.sourceforge.net/man/man1/srec_examples.html From ethan at 757.org Thu May 12 16:38:29 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 17:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Man, I'd LOVE to have one of those. Sadly, I think I don't have the space. > I'll have to stick to desk-side-ish machines. There is already an XL SGI > (Terminator ONYX) in the garage. :( Onyx and Challenge XL are better. 16 or 32 little cpu bars on the LCD. So cool. -- Ethan O'Toole From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu May 12 15:07:23 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 16:07:23 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 (Josh Dersch) Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 14:27:49 -0700 > From: Josh Dersch > Subject: Re: PDP-11 > > > The 8{3|5}50s our biggest customer used had Pro380 VAX CONSOLES, I > remember > > our main menu system looked odd on them since they had a bitmapped > display. > > I've still got one of them I think, can't remember the last time I > powered > > it up but I'm pretty sure it was running TSX-11. > > > > While we're on that subject -- > > I have a friend locally with an 8550 that's missing the console Pro-380 > system; if anyone happens to have one (with the appropriate VAX interface > hardware) drop me a line... > > - Josh > Josh, I donated a Pro-380 VAX console to the RCS/RI crew about 15 years ago. They probably still have it. -- Michael Thompson From spacewar at gmail.com Thu May 12 21:58:35 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 20:58:35 -0600 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 Message-ID: I just got the new boards: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/albums/72157668325096875 Differences of new version: * bezel is black with white legends * legend font is a bit larger and heavier * legends are above switches * switch PCB wiring errors fixed * right angle header * plastic caps installed on all toggles I assembled the new one with C&K switches that are more readily available (e.g., from Digi-Key and Mouser), but I don't like them as much. Originally I used switches with a V-bracket which makes alignment and assembly easier, and they have a uniform threaded bushing height. The more common toggle switches have a longer threaded bushing. This can be seen by comparing the edge-on views; for the more common switches without the V-bracket, the red switch body is seen. I'm soliciting input as to whether the switch legends should be changed from the vector font to a "real" font, and if so, what font and size is desired. From brain at jbrain.com Thu May 12 22:38:29 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 22:38:29 -0500 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> On 5/12/2016 9:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I just got the new boards: > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/albums/72157668325096875 > > Differences of new version: > > * bezel is black with white legends > * legend font is a bit larger and heavier > * legends are above switches > * switch PCB wiring errors fixed > * right angle header > * plastic caps installed on all toggles > > I assembled the new one with C&K switches that are more readily > available (e.g., from Digi-Key and Mouser), but I don't like them as > much. Originally I used switches with a V-bracket which makes > alignment and assembly easier, and they have a uniform threaded > bushing height. The more common toggle switches have a longer threaded > bushing. This can be seen by comparing the edge-on views; for the more > common switches without the V-bracket, the red switch body is seen. > > I'm soliciting input as to whether the switch legends should be > changed from the vector font to a "real" font, and if so, what font > and size is desired. Not sure if I am completely understanding the concerns with the switches, but: * I would install the switches and run the top nut out to the very end, then back the inside nut up to it on the other side of the bazel * Once all switches are installed, then insert the board and solder. Of course, this fails if the bezel has to be only a certain height above the PCB, but perhaps that is not critical and thus my idea has a chance of working. I'm not your market segment, but I think a better font would be welcome. I looked online for a bit, but saw no specific font that would have historical value, except Popular Electronics' font on the cover that month: http://www.sunrise-ev.com/photos/PopularElectronicsAug76.jpg Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From spacewar at gmail.com Fri May 13 01:13:49 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 00:13:49 -0600 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 9:38 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Not sure if I am completely understanding the concerns with the switches, > but: > > * I would install the switches and run the top nut out to the very > end, then back the inside nut up to it on the other side of the bazel > * Once all switches are installed, then insert the board and solder. Part of the problem is that with the commonly-available switches, the push-button has a significantly shorter bushing than the toggles. The switches I chose for the first version had the same length bushings, and had the V-bracket that makes it easier to assemble, but they are much harder to source. In general, there is little selection available when you want switches with both PCB-mount termination and a threaded bushing, as apparently that's not a common requirement. > I'm not your market segment, but I think a better font would be welcome. I > looked online for a bit, but saw no specific font that would have historical > value, except Popular Electronics' font on the cover that month: > > http://www.sunrise-ev.com/photos/PopularElectronicsAug76.jpg I wish I could find a high-res scan of that cover. Now that I think about it, my friend John probably has a physical issue I could borrow and scan. From brain at jbrain.com Fri May 13 01:30:15 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 01:30:15 -0500 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <57357477.20404@jbrain.com> On 5/13/2016 1:13 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 9:38 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> Not sure if I am completely understanding the concerns with the switches, >> but: >> >> * I would install the switches and run the top nut out to the very >> end, then back the inside nut up to it on the other side of the bazel >> * Once all switches are installed, then insert the board and solder. > Part of the problem is that with the commonly-available switches, the > push-button has a significantly shorter bushing than the toggles. But, is it so short that it would not touch the PCB when soldered? If not, I think you're OK. > Jim From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 13 01:40:08 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 07:40:08 +0100 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow Message-ID: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> I understand that DEC created a version of Windows for the Rainbow. Does anyone have this? Regards Rob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 13 03:01:33 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 09:01:33 +0100 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 13/05/2016 07:40, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > I understand that DEC created a version of Windows for the Rainbow. Does > anyone have this? None of the Rainbows I used had the option of a mouse, it was an item reserved for workstations back then, I see the wiki entry says that DEC ported Windows 1 but there's no footnote showing further evidence. I don't remember it being advertised anywhere either, the world was falling over the IBM PC by then. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 13 03:18:13 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 04:18:13 -0400 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 11:38 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 5/12/2016 9:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> I just got the new boards: >> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/albums/72157668325096875 Nice! > I'm not your market segment, but I think a better font would be welcome. I would agree (and I've built more than one 1802 board) > I > looked online for a bit, but saw no specific font that would have historical > value, except Popular Electronics' font on the cover that month: > > http://www.sunrise-ev.com/photos/PopularElectronicsAug76.jpg I made one of those once, about 12 years ago. I used Letraset dry transfer letters, which is what I remember the original Elf project had used. Someone on the list sent me a few used sheets and I used a few more numbers. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 13 03:32:42 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 09:32:42 +0100 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: <20160512211715.05B1B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160512211715.05B1B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 12/05/2016 22:17, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Mattis Lind > > You don't have a dump of the PROMs in Intel HEX? > > No, but I do have a un-annotated dump in octal. Can you point me at a > description of Intel HEX format, so I can whip up a converter program? (Which > will also take an array of PDP-11 words, and split it up into the 4 different > ROM chips, since each word is spread across all 4 chips.) I already have a > program to read my octal dump things, so I'll just have to tweak that a bit. Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/IntelHEX There's a description and also some code you could adapt. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri May 13 04:31:49 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 11:31:49 +0200 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20160513093148.GA4484@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 07:40:08AM +0100, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I understand that DEC created a version of Windows for the Rainbow. Does > anyone have this? Have you seen: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?28472-Rainbow-Windows maybe getting a hold of Jeff "PrintStar" Armstrong could be a start. /P > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri May 13 04:02:59 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 10:02:59 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Hex file formats (Was: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps) Message-ID: <01Q04JRGRLHW00DGA5@beyondthepale.ie> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 12/05/2016 22:17, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Mattis Lind > > > > You don't have a dump of the PROMs in Intel HEX? > > > > No, but I do have a un-annotated dump in octal. Can you point me at a > > description of Intel HEX format, so I can whip up a converter program? (Which > > will also take an array of PDP-11 words, and split it up into the 4 different > > ROM chips, since each word is spread across all 4 chips.) I already have a > > program to read my octal dump things, so I'll just have to tweak that a bit. > > Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/IntelHEX > There's a description and also some code you could adapt. > Does anyone recognise this hex file format from anywhere? #00002110F01140007D6C62B70608&2F #000CED52300119&4A #00113FCB1287ED6A87ED6A10F076&E4 $ As far as I can tell, the first four hex digits is a 16 bit address, followed by up to 48 hex digit pairs of data and the hex digit pair after & is a checksum. The $ appears to be an end of file marker. It came from a Z80 cross assembler which ran on VAX/VMS. Searching for information about it has turned up very little except for a reference on the DECUS website to: V00250 UCAMS: Universal Cross-Assembler for Microprocessors Version: February 1987 however, I don't think this is it. Does anyone have a better description of the file format or anything that might have produced it? Regards, Peter Coghlan From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri May 13 06:35:58 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 13:35:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Hex file formats (Was: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps) In-Reply-To: <01Q04JRGRLHW00DGA5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01Q04JRGRLHW00DGA5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote: > for information about it has turned up very little except for a > reference on the DECUS website to: > > V00250 UCAMS: Universal Cross-Assembler for Microprocessors > Version: February 1987 Oh yes, the good old "Universal Cross-Assembler f?r Mikroprozessoren der Universit?t Stuttgart" :-) That project began on the TR-440 and was ported to the VAX. Klemes has ported that to the PDP-8, too. Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri May 13 06:54:40 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 12:54:40 +0100 Subject: 11/83 RQDX3 RD-53 Jumpers Message-ID: Hi Does anybody know the jumper settings on a RD-53 on an 11/83 with an RQDX3 controller and an RX50 Rod From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 13 11:10:15 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 17:10:15 +0100 Subject: Replacement for a Corcom F2987A EMI Filter In-Reply-To: <77070757.1017328.1463002438444.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> References: <77070757.1017328.1463002438444.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: <00fa01d1ad31$efeaa4b0$cfbfee10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jarratt > RMA > Sent: 11 May 2016 22:34 > To: Discussion: Posts > Subject: Replacement for a Corcom F2987A EMI Filter > > I have two failed Corcom filters in two DEC Rainbows. I see some spares > available in the US, but shipping to the UK is likely to be prohibitive and I > would like if possible to find a modern equivalent. It is this one: > http://meci.com/corcom-12-20129-01-emi-line-filter-model-f2987a.html. > I have found an original filter on ebay in the US, shipping it here would cost about the same as buying a modern replacement. So I have a choice: 1. Fit a modern replacement, which won't fit exactly and won't look right, but will surely last a while. 2. Fit a working original, which will fit and will look right, but may fail on me. What is the longevity of these filters like in general? I am not asking about this specific make/model, although I have two failed ones (and two that are still good). Thanks Rob From miller-wd at verizon.net Fri May 13 10:27:16 2016 From: miller-wd at verizon.net (Walter Miller) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 11:27:16 -0400 Subject: Tape reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <154aaba9987-6af7-18091@webprd-m66.mail.aol.com> Will this one do? http://www.electronicsurplus.com/eeco-tr-9301b0dea-perforated-paper-tape-reader -----Original Message----- From: jwsmobile To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, May 11, 2016 6:58 pm Subject: Tape reader Does anyone here know how to order this device? It seems to still possibly be offered, but I am not sure how to order it. I'm not sure if the person is on the list, if so you can reply off list. Looked for faq or shopping or buy pointer, didn't find one. thanks JIm http://retropcdesign.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6 From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 13 11:54:59 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 11:54:59 -0500 Subject: Replacement for a Corcom F2987A EMI Filter In-Reply-To: <00fa01d1ad31$efeaa4b0$cfbfee10$@ntlworld.com> References: <77070757.1017328.1463002438444.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <00fa01d1ad31$efeaa4b0$cfbfee10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <573606E3.20604@pico-systems.com> On 05/13/2016 11:10 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I have found an original filter on ebay in the US, > shipping it here would cost about the same as buying a > modern replacement. So I have a choice: 1. Fit a modern > replacement, which won't fit exactly and won't look right, > but will surely last a while. 2. Fit a working original, > which will fit and will look right, but may fail on me. > What is the longevity of these filters like in general? Gee, I've NEVER had one fail in any of the gear I have. I did have an "X" capacitor fail in a big switching power supply, but this was just a capacitor on a board. I've never had a Corcom or other brand of power entry/line filter go bad. So, I think that one particular type might have had some kind of manufacturing defect. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 13 12:12:39 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 13:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps Message-ID: <20160513171239.D313A18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Glen Slick >> No, but I do have a un-annotated dump in octal. Can you point me at ^^^^^ >> a description of Intel HEX format > Or you could just use the SRecord tool package to convert between > binary / Intel hex / Motorala hex I had a look through the doc, but I couldn't find 'octal' anywhere... :-) And anyway, my format is not identical to either Intel or Motorola, so I'd have to write a converter _anyway_, to get from my format to something a tool would understand. (Converting my dumper to emit Intel instead of my format would still mean a lot of work, because I have all these boards dumped in my format - I'd have to swap them all into the machine to get Intel-format dumps.) Plus to which the M9301 ROM format is kind of wierd; the high addresses on the bus (173000 and up) go in the low locations in the ROM, and the low locations (165000 and up) go in the high, _and_ the low bits (0377) of each word (i.e. the two ROMs which hold the low bits) have to be inverted because of a kludge on the M9301 having to do with the way it writes the contents of the switch to the bus when the machine is starting. So all in all, it's just easier to... >> I already have a program to read my octal dump things, so I'll just >> have to tweak that a bit. Which turned out to be pretty easy - probably easier (for me, at least) than understanding the documentation on the SRecord tool page well enough to understand how to make it do what was needed... :-) > From: Pete Turnbull >> Can you point me at a description of Intel HEX format > Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/IntelHEX > There's a description and also some code you could adapt. Thanks for that; alas, by the time I saw it, my brain had turned on and I remembered this wonderful thing called 'Google', which had led me to info about the format! :-) Noel From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri May 13 12:44:32 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 13:44:32 -0400 Subject: Tape reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11 May 2016 at 21:58, jwsmobile wrote: > http://retropcdesign.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6 Massively off-topic (sort of), but that tape reader is really quite similar to the functioning of the KOI-18 reader for loading keys into crypto devices. Link for those wanting to know what I'm blathering about: Sorry for the off-topic-ness. Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri May 13 12:59:54 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:59:54 +0100 Subject: Backups Message-ID: Is it my imagination or do backups not get mentioned these days? Rod Smallwood From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri May 13 13:08:04 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:08:04 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Replacement for a Corcom F2987A EMI Filter In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 13 May 2016 11:54:59 -0500" <573606E3.20604@pico-systems.com> References: <77070757.1017328.1463002438444.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <00fa01d1ad31$efeaa4b0$cfbfee10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01Q0510N5SBC00DGA5@beyondthepale.ie> Jon Elson wrote: > Gee, I've NEVER had one fail in any of the gear I have. I > did have an "X" capacitor fail in a big switching power > supply, but this was just a capacitor on a board. I've > never had a Corcom or other brand of power entry/line filter > go bad. > > So, I think that one particular type might have had some > kind of manufacturing defect. > > Jon Can the machine in question operate on both 120V and 240V? If so, the filter would have much better operating margins on the lower voltage. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 13 13:18:19 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 12:18:19 -0600 Subject: Backups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57f2e314-68e2-4a58-b020-f5a117f90ee3@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/13/2016 11:59 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Is it my imagination or do backups not get mentioned these days? I THOUGHT IT IS ALL IN THE CLOUDS NOW DAYS: > Rod Smallwood I have windows here so I don't do backups because everything is hidden so well by the system. Where is file foobar? BEN. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 13 13:30:10 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:30:10 +0100 Subject: Backups In-Reply-To: <57f2e314-68e2-4a58-b020-f5a117f90ee3@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <57f2e314-68e2-4a58-b020-f5a117f90ee3@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <05f701d1ad45$7be30800$73a91800$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben > Sent: 13 May 2016 19:18 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Backups > > On 5/13/2016 11:59 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Is it my imagination or do backups not get mentioned these days? > > I THOUGHT IT IS ALL IN THE CLOUDS NOW DAYS: > > > Rod Smallwood > > I have windows here so I don't do backups because everything is hidden so well > by the system. > Where is file foobar? > > BEN. > > What has this got to do with Classic Computers.... Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 13 13:42:13 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 12:42:13 -0600 Subject: Backups In-Reply-To: <05f701d1ad45$7be30800$73a91800$@gmail.com> References: <57f2e314-68e2-4a58-b020-f5a117f90ee3@jetnet.ab.ca> <05f701d1ad45$7be30800$73a91800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/13/2016 12:30 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > What has this got to do with Classic Computers.... > I don't hear tape drives going chunk chunk for backups for your favorte classic computer. > Dave I suspect most people are lucky to have working hard disk with the early classic computers. I suspect most if they can, back up to a PC. Ben. From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Fri May 13 15:50:08 2016 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 20:50:08 +0000 Subject: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> I don't normally look at 5150's on eBay, but this one popped up in one of the ad tiles, and it caught my eye because I've never seen one that wasn't the standard beige. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-5150-Personal-Computer-WORKING-plus-accessories-/222114025128?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276 At first glance, it doesn't appear to be hand painted. Anyone on here know about such things? Were other colors available? Thanks! -Ben From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 13 15:53:16 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 13:53:16 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 with red case on eBay In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <012301d1ad59$79bae0c0$6d30a240$@net> > At first glance, it doesn't appear to be hand painted. Anyone on here > know about such things? Were other colors available? > It is hand painted and the owner is very proud of himself. It has been listed on and off for the past year with no one biting... -Ali From mspproductions at gmail.com Fri May 13 15:53:23 2016 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 16:53:23 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: Neat, but sure does look hand painted, look at the picture showing the back emblim. You can see the original beige showing through. On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Benjamin Huntsman < BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote: > I don't normally look at 5150's on eBay, but this one popped up in one of > the ad tiles, and it caught my eye because I've never seen one that wasn't > the standard beige. > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-5150-Personal-Computer-WORKING-plus-accessories-/222114025128?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276 > > At first glance, it doesn't appear to be hand painted. Anyone on here > know about such things? Were other colors available? > > Thanks! > > -Ben -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions (330)718-3064 (mobile) mspproductions at gmail.com KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 13 16:05:10 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 22:05:10 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20160512013151.02A1018C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160512013151.02A1018C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <063601d1ad5b$2305b1e0$691115a0$@gmail.com> > QBUS termination is a complex subject; when you have multiple backplane > sections, connected by cables, each section has 'termination'. That's what this > REV11-E card is; it's also the QBUS 'out' to the card in the 780 CPU which the > console -11 uses to control the /780 CPU. Why it's in the middle slot, I'm not > sure (unless things have been moved around)? > Pretty sure they have been moved.. > > M8044ee > > m7946 > > MSV11-?? (My list doesn't contain an '-EE', but it's some sort of small MOS > memory, Q18) > RXV11 (RX01 8" floppy disk controller) > > In theory, the M8044-EE should be an "MSV11-DE" (not "MSV11-EE", that would > be an M8045-EE), but none of my documentation, including the M8044 prints, > covers such a variant. Maybe I need to look in the /780 prints, it may be a > special variant for use in the /780 console machines. > The back of the board says M8045 5013128DP1 32K 18bit MOS memory > > M8192 > > LSI-11/73 CPU; a nice machine, if you can eventually get it running. You'll want > a bunch more memory (note that the M8044/8045 cards are Q18, and so you > can only have up to 256KB with them - they _WILL NOT WORK_ in a system > with more than 256KB in it). > > The REV-11 isn't needed in this configuration. The boot PROM for this machine > was actually on the card in the /780 CPU, so eventually you'll need a > replacement - something like a BDV11 or something (they are available, and > not too expensive). > These all seem to have vanished from E-Bay at present. > Noel From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 13 16:24:20 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 15:24:20 -0600 (MDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2016, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:> > At first glance, it doesn't appear to be hand painted. Anyone on here > know about such things? Were other colors available? I was so disgusted with IBM and other TLAs who I won't name for fear of being flame-blasted for the "beige orthodoxy". Most companies always acted like doing any industrial design or adding color would scare off their business customers. I guess soulless bean counters have to be surrounded by items just as boring and life-sucking as they are or they will spontaneously combust along with their checkbooks. The attitude is akin to the type of suit-wearers or HOA-lawn-preeners who want to *force* their thoughtless and wasteful conformity on everyone else. Hopefully, during the 80's punk rock and Iron Maiden nearly gave them a heart attack (at least there is that). (Why yes, sir I did have a mohawk.) In the 1980's and 1990's SGI was a bright shining exception and I love them for that early middle finger to the beige box priesthood. Apple/NeXT did a decent job, too. Once they became one and Jobs got his way, he seems to have set about claiming a significant space in the then-wilderness of PC industrial design. In the meantime, their stock went from @$30 a share in 98' into the stratosphere, splitting a few times along the way. Guess thinking about design wasn't such a bad idea. In a way I'm glad I didn't learn much appreciation for beige box machines. My house is already full enough of "pretty" junk. Having ugly junk would just add insult to injury and possibly lead to homicide by my SO. It's all in the eye of the beholder, though. Also, nowadays you get machines in all kinds of colors, shapes, and sizes. The only trouble is that, no matter what color or size, they are opaque, undocumented, low-quality, and crass. Be careful what you wish for, I guess. "Life is too short for beige boxes, b****y women, or bad beer." -Overheard at SIGGRAPH -Swift From spacewar at gmail.com Fri May 13 16:54:22 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 15:54:22 -0600 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 2:18 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I made one of those once, about 12 years ago. I used Letraset dry > transfer letters, which is what I remember the original Elf project > had used. Someone on the list sent me a few used sheets and I used a > few more numbers. I imagine almost everyone used Letraset. That doesn't help me much because Letraset made a zillion different fonts. In the absence of any details, I'll use some variant of Hevetica. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 13 17:20:39 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:20:39 -0400 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: > I was so disgusted with IBM and other TLAs who I won't name for fear of > being flame-blasted for the "beige orthodoxy". Most companies always acted > like doing any industrial design or adding color would scare off their > business customers. Do not blame the computer companies, blame the customers. Beige and gray were the colors they wanted. The bright dazzling colors of the 1960s and early 70s were gone, the earthtones of the late 1970s were phasing out, and the boring colors of the 1980s were starting to come into play. IBM did offer a choice of colors for much of their machine line (not the PC line, however) until the mid 1980s - blue (default), gray (2nd default), red, white, and yellow, and later brown and green (I have never seen either brown or green in the wild, but they are options in the catalog), but most customers wanted blue or gray. If so few customers wanted the other colors, it is easy to see why they were discontinued. > In the 1980's and 1990's SGI was a bright shining exception and I love > them for that early middle finger to the beige box priesthood. Keep in mind that while most of us think SGI's designs are super great, most of the customers outside the machine rooms thought they were, at best, "interesting". "Interesting" is a funny word... -- Will From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 13 17:52:24 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 Message-ID: <20160513225224.AABAC18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Wade >> In theory, the M8044-EE should be an "MSV11-DE" (not "MSV11-EE", that >> would be an M8045-EE), but none of my documentation, including the >> M8044 prints, covers such a variant. > The back of the board says M8045 5013128DP1 32K 18bit MOS memory All M8044's I've ever seen say M8045 in the etch. The M8044 is the non-parity version ("MSV11-Dx"), and the M8045 is the parity version ("MSV11-Ex"), and for the M8044's, they just left one row of chips out. >> something like a BDV11 or something > These all seem to have vanished from E-Bay at present. Paul A has (or used to have) a bunch of them. Noel From scaron at diablonet.net Fri May 13 18:07:09 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Backups In-Reply-To: References: <57f2e314-68e2-4a58-b020-f5a117f90ee3@jetnet.ab.ca> <05f701d1ad45$7be30800$73a91800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2016, ben wrote: > On 5/13/2016 12:30 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> What has this got to do with Classic Computers.... >> > > I don't hear tape drives going chunk chunk for backups > for your favorte classic computer. > >> Dave > > I suspect most people are lucky to have working hard disk with > the early classic computers. I suspect most if they can, back up > to a PC. > Ben. > I don't keep any real data on the "exhibits" ... any data I care about, I keep a few different copies across a few different modern machines. PDFs, ROM images, software ... I have a ton of operating system CD-ROMs that I should probably start imaging, though. This has been on my to-do list for years now ... :O Best, Sean From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 13 18:14:37 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 16:14:37 -0700 Subject: Backups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <300A71F3-2F7D-4514-97F5-EBB8D3F32D5E@aracnet.com> > On May 13, 2016, at 10:59 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Is it my imagination or do backups not get mentioned these days? > > Rod Smallwood That?s not my experience, I find that?s a common topic. Maybe not here. Zane From kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com Fri May 13 18:59:57 2016 From: kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com (Kevin Griffin) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 16:59:57 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: That thing is definitely pained. I never heard of IBM 5150 with other colors. On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Matt Patoray wrote: > Neat, but sure does look hand painted, look at the picture showing the back > emblim. You can see the original beige showing through. > > On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Benjamin Huntsman < > BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote: > > > I don't normally look at 5150's on eBay, but this one popped up in one of > > the ad tiles, and it caught my eye because I've never seen one that > wasn't > > the standard beige. > > > > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-5150-Personal-Computer-WORKING-plus-accessories-/222114025128?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276 > > > > At first glance, it doesn't appear to be hand painted. Anyone on here > > know about such things? Were other colors available? > > > > Thanks! > > > > -Ben > > > > > -- > Matt Patoray > Owner, MSP Productions > (330)718-3064 (mobile) > mspproductions at gmail.com > KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri May 13 19:21:38 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 20:21:38 -0400 Subject: 11/83 RQDX3 RD-53 Jumpers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57366F92.90103@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > Does anybody know the jumper settings on a RD-53 on an 11/83 > with an RQDX3 controller and an RX50 I will cover just the two most usual hardware configurations: (a) BA23 box - 1st RD53 is DS3, 2nd RD53 is DS4 (a 6 button front panel is required or you can build your own) - never had to change anything on the RX50 when ONLY a single dual RX50 is used (b) BA123 box - 1st RD53 is DS3, 2nd RD53 is DS3 (they are the SAME and special BA123 READ ONLY switches are required) - never had to change anything on the RX50 when ONLY a single dual RX50 is used I set up a MINC system with an RD53 once - don't ask! The jumper was DS3. By the way, the RD53 is just a Micropolis 1335 (if I remember correctly) with R7 set as a zero ohm resistor so the RQDX2 and RQDX3 recognize the extra circuit. The above jumpers apply to all RD51, RD51, RD53 and RD54 drives with the RQDX1, RQDX2 and RQDX3 controllers. The RD53 can't be used with the RQDX1 and the RD54 requires the RQDX3. With the BA123 box, there is a special distribution panel (13th slot) for the hard drives and the floppies. If you don't have enough information, please ask. All of the above is from memory - there may be some mistakes! Did this help? If you make the mistake of having both RD5n drives as DS3 with the BA23 box when the drives are not WRITE PROTECTED, you will destroy the Low Level Format. I find it is impossible to forget that situation - you only need to do it ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jerome Fine From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri May 13 19:29:40 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 02:29:40 +0200 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On 14 May 2016 at 00:20, William Donzelli wrote: > Do not blame the computer companies, blame the customers. Beige and > gray were the colors they wanted. When companies buy, someone will have to approve (that is, provide the money). That's often the company's own beancounters.. Engineer: "We'll need this particular computer. This here model will do." Beancounter (looking in sales brochure): "Purple? We don't do that kind of thing here. This other model will do, surely" (points to beige version). From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri May 13 19:32:22 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:32:22 -0500 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: GE used black on their computers for the workmasters witch where IBM 5150's On May 13, 2016 7:29 PM, "Tor Arntsen" wrote: > On 14 May 2016 at 00:20, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Do not blame the computer companies, blame the customers. Beige and > > gray were the colors they wanted. > > When companies buy, someone will have to approve (that is, provide the > money). That's often the company's own beancounters.. Engineer: > "We'll need this particular computer. This here model will do." > Beancounter (looking in sales brochure): "Purple? We don't do that > kind of thing here. This other model will do, surely" (points to beige > version). > From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 13 19:42:31 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 17:42:31 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <57367477.10007@sydex.com> For the S/360 systems, there was a wide choice of colors. In fact, most of the S/360s I saw initially were that orangish-red. I've heard it referred to as "International Orange" in accordance with Federal Specification 595: http://www.fed-std-595.com/FS-595-Paint-Spec.html In the early 1970s, CDC went from a beige and gray motif to blue glass and fake woodgrain. NCR, Cray and Honeywell similarly had brightly-colored systems. Office interiors in the 1980s were often the bright primary upholstery, with exposed structure and plumbing being painted similarly bright colors. It was a bit much, reminiscent of the Pompidou centre in Paris. Styles change. I don't think much of deep blue as a color scheme. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 13 19:57:19 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 20:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) Message-ID: <20160514005719.8EE5F18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > Styles change. And like women's hem-lines, they eventually work their way back to a previous generations' (now semi-forgotten) style. I remember being amused when black became the 'new' 'cool colour' for PC's; back to the era of KA10's and early PDP-11's!! Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 13 20:06:57 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 May 2016, Tor Arntsen wrote: > Beancounter (looking in sales brochure): "Purple? We don't do that > kind of thing here. This other model will do, surely" (points to beige > version). If you are only going to have one color, then beige is preferable, followed by black, and quite a bit further back, white, and then blue. People may not want beige. But, the intensity of their reactions are much less extreme than the potential dislike for other colors. If a store has every color in inventory, fine. But just imagine what management wants to do when a customer says, "I came for Raspberry, but all that they had some Loquat, so I didn't buy it." Apple stores, with enormous inventory leverage could pull off an ADM3a in a fruit salad of colors. But, how do you supply small stores that only want a few in stock? "Mediocrity is less dangerous than innovation." You don't get in touble for buying IBM. You don't get in trouble for buying beige. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 13 20:11:52 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: > GE used black on their computers Ever see one of those black computers from Hell and Bowel, that seem just like an Apple? B&H was able to get away with a bluish color for their 500 series Filmosound projectors, but it was an uphill battle after the JANs and then the brown suitcases of the 200 and 300 series. School boards would rubber-stamp B&H equipment, but form committees before accepting something like an Apple. UNTIL they got established. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri May 13 20:16:03 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 20:16:03 -0500 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: Intel MDS was blue as well On May 13, 2016 8:11 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > GE used black on their computers >> > > > Ever see one of those black computers from Hell and Bowel, that seem just > like an Apple? > > B&H was able to get away with a bluish color for their 500 series > Filmosound projectors, but it was an uphill battle after the JANs and then > the brown suitcases of the 200 and 300 series. > > School boards would rubber-stamp B&H equipment, but form committees before > accepting something like an Apple. UNTIL they got established. > > > > From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 13 20:16:02 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:16:02 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: > On May 13, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Ever see one of those black computers from Hell and Bowel, that seem just like an Apple? I sold them in the early 80s. My memory is very fuzzy, but ISTR they were a licensed clone of the Apple ][. And they actually worked. --lyndon From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri May 13 20:46:40 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 03:46:40 +0200 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On 14 May 2016 at 03:16, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > >> On May 13, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> Ever see one of those black computers from Hell and Bowel, that seem just like an Apple? > > I sold them in the early 80s. My memory is very fuzzy, but ISTR they were a licensed clone of the Apple ][. And they actually worked. They weren't even clones, they were the real deal. Apple II Plus computers produced by Apple for B&H for a time. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 13 21:00:15 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 21:00:15 -0500 Subject: Backups In-Reply-To: <05f701d1ad45$7be30800$73a91800$@gmail.com> References: <57f2e314-68e2-4a58-b020-f5a117f90ee3@jetnet.ab.ca> <05f701d1ad45$7be30800$73a91800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <573686AF.8000606@pico-systems.com> On 05/13/2016 01:30 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> > What has this got to do with Classic Computers.... > > Well, I still have the backup tape from my CP/M system. (Yes, I had a 9-track, 800 BPI Pertec tape drive on my CP/M system.) Jon From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri May 13 21:04:28 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 14:04:28 +1200 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 14 May 2016 at 00:20, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Do not blame the computer companies, blame the customers. Beige and >> gray were the colors they wanted. > > When companies buy, someone will have to approve (that is, provide the > money). That's often the company's own beancounters.. Engineer: > "We'll need this particular computer. This here model will do." > Beancounter (looking in sales brochure): "Purple? We don't do that > kind of thing here. This other model will do, surely" (points to beige > version). Companies other than SGI did 'interesting' colors. Here's something really obscure; bonus points to anyone who can identify it just from the photo. No cheating! And treble points for anyone who HAS one. A Prince's ransom if you have one for sale :-) - http://www.d1.dion.ne.jp/~r_high/memorial/panda/boxes.gif Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri May 13 21:06:21 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 22:06:21 -0400 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: Today, who has a colorful case on their modern PC? From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 13 21:20:49 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:20:49 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> > On May 13, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > > They weren't even clones, they were the real deal. Apple II Plus > computers produced by Apple for B&H for a time. Apple manufactured an OEM Apple ][+ ? Really? I was pretty sure the B&H's were an independent product. Apple licensed them to try to step on the clone market. I can't fathom Apple letting someone else sell their own product (modulo case colour) at a price that undercut the official product. I do recall now the local elementary & jr. high schools gobbled them up. (The B&H variant.) From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 13 21:22:26 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:22:26 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <57368BE2.1000900@sydex.com> On 05/13/2016 07:06 PM, william degnan wrote: > Today, who has a colorful case on their modern PC? Dunno--the ASUS Vento was pretty cool; very colorful without a right angle on the case. Too bad that it had the reputation of being junk. Can one still buy a Vento case? --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 13 21:34:54 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 21:34:54 -0500 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Apple manufactured an OEM Apple ][+ ? Really? I was pretty sure the B&H's were an independent product. Apple licensed them to try to step on the clone market. I can't fathom Apple letting someone else sell their own product (modulo case colour) at a price that undercut the official product. Every part but (iirc) the case was Apple's and Apple-branded. It was just a regular //+, except.... > I do recall now the local elementary & jr. high schools gobbled them up. (The B&H variant.) The story goes that Apple had trouble getting into certain educational markets because schools weren't used to budgeting for computers; but they did buy a lot of A/V equipment. Apple made a deal with well-known educational vendor B&H, who made black cases with a special A/V box on the back (a cluster of RCA connectors) and voila, there was a computer that a school could buy in the same lot as the Wollensak tape machines, 16mm projectors and those big headphones with the poofy white ear cushions. -j From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 13 21:36:00 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: >> Ever see one of those black computers from Hell and Bowel, that seem >> just like an Apple? On Fri, 13 May 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > I sold them in the early 80s. My memory is very fuzzy, but ISTR they > were a licensed clone of the Apple ][. And they actually worked. Yes, they were. They had a few specific changes that were thought to be necessary for classroom use, such as a non-detachable cord (theft of power cord was more of a worry then than it is now), a serious latch instead of velcro for the lid, . . . From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 13 21:40:10 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:40:10 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: > On May 13, 2016, at 7:34 PM, Jason T wrote: > > Apple made a deal with > well-known educational vendor B&H, who made black cases with a special > A/V box on the back (a cluster of RCA connectors) I don't remember the stack of RCA connectors, but yeah, Apple definitely rode on the coat tails of Bell & Howell 16mm movie (and 35mm film strip) projector sales :-) From useddec at gmail.com Fri May 13 21:43:16 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 21:43:16 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20160513225224.AABAC18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160513225224.AABAC18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I believe the boards were all designed as a M8045, which was the parity model, and the M8044 was on the same artwork, just missing a few bits to make it parity. On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Dave Wade > > >> In theory, the M8044-EE should be an "MSV11-DE" (not "MSV11-EE", > that > >> would be an M8045-EE), but none of my documentation, including the > >> M8044 prints, covers such a variant. > > > The back of the board says M8045 5013128DP1 32K 18bit MOS memory > > All M8044's I've ever seen say M8045 in the etch. The M8044 is the > non-parity > version ("MSV11-Dx"), and the M8045 is the parity version ("MSV11-Ex"), and > for the M8044's, they just left one row of chips out. > > >> something like a BDV11 or something > > > These all seem to have vanished from E-Bay at present. > > Paul A has (or used to have) a bunch of them. > > Noel > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 13 21:44:33 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: >> They weren't even clones, they were the real deal. Apple II Plus >> computers produced by Apple for B&H for a time. On Fri, 13 May 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Apple manufactured an OEM Apple ][+ ? Really? I was pretty sure the > B&H's were an independent product. Not independent. > Apple licensed them to try to step on the clone market. I can't fathom I doubt it. Apple licensed them as a way to get in the door of school systems. > Apple letting someone else sell their own product (modulo case colour) > at a price that undercut the official product. "undercut"??!? I seriously doubt that the B&H "Black Apple" was cheaper. But, it had B&H's credibility backing it up for skeptical school boards, who bought tons of B&H AV equipment, but didn't know what a "personal computer" was. > I do recall now the local elementary & jr. high schools gobbled them up. > (The B&H variant.) I knew a few teachers who got B&H Black Apples into the classroom, and THEN were able to get the school board to let them buy Apples, because they were cheaper, "just as good", and "completely compatible!" with the B&H. From radioengr at gmail.com Fri May 13 21:46:07 2016 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:46:07 -0700 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: <20160513171239.D313A18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160513171239.D313A18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5b49d975-0a4b-4824-456c-229370077595@gmail.com> On 5/13/2016 10:12 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Glen Slick > > >> No, but I do have a un-annotated dump in octal. Can you point me at > ^^^^^ > >> a description of Intel HEX format > > > Or you could just use the SRecord tool package to convert between > > binary / Intel hex / Motorala hex > > I had a look through the doc, but I couldn't find 'octal' anywhere... :-) > > And anyway, my format is not identical to either Intel or Motorola, so I'd > have to write a converter _anyway_, to get from my format to something a tool > would understand. (Converting my dumper to emit Intel instead of my format > would still mean a lot of work, because I have all these boards dumped in my > format - I'd have to swap them all into the machine to get Intel-format dumps.) > > Plus to which the M9301 ROM format is kind of wierd; the high addresses on > the bus (173000 and up) go in the low locations in the ROM, and the low > locations (165000 and up) go in the high, _and_ the low bits (0377) of each > word (i.e. the two ROMs which hold the low bits) have to be inverted because > of a kludge on the M9301 having to do with the way it writes the contents of > the switch to the bus when the machine is starting. So all in all, it's just > easier to... > > >> I already have a program to read my octal dump things, so I'll just > >> have to tweak that a bit. > > Which turned out to be pretty easy - probably easier (for me, at least) than > understanding the documentation on the SRecord tool page well enough to > understand how to make it do what was needed... :-) > > > > From: Pete Turnbull > > >> Can you point me at a description of Intel HEX format > > > Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/IntelHEX > > There's a description and also some code you could adapt. > > Thanks for that; alas, by the time I saw it, my brain had turned on and I > remembered this wonderful thing called 'Google', which had led me to info > about the format! :-) > > Noel If you have a linux, cygwin, or something-or-other that uses GNU tools, the 'objcopy' utility in the Binutils package can translate between binary, tekhex, srec, ihex, etc. Rob Doyle From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 13 21:49:30 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:49:30 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: > On May 13, 2016, at 7:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > "undercut"??!? > I seriously doubt that the B&H "Black Apple" was cheaper. But, it had B&H's credibility backing it up for skeptical school boards, who bought tons of B&H AV equipment, but didn't know what a "personal computer" was. > >> I do recall now the local elementary & jr. high schools gobbled them up. (The B&H variant.) > > I knew a few teachers who got B&H Black Apples into the classroom, and THEN were able to get the school board to let them buy Apples, because they were cheaper, "just as good", and "completely compatible!" with the B&H. Maybe the outfit I was working for was lowballing the B&H price, but we definitely had the price advantage over all the Apple dealers. Now part of that might have been because we were the only Apple(-ish) dealer in Ft. McMurray AB, and the only alternatives were the *very* greedy Apple dealers in Edmonton (a five+ hour drive south). From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri May 13 22:05:15 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 05:05:15 +0200 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On 14 May 2016 at 04:20, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > >> On May 13, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> >> They weren't even clones, they were the real deal. Apple II Plus >> computers produced by Apple for B&H for a time. > > Apple manufactured an OEM Apple ][+ ? Really? Yes, look at this picture: http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/appleII-bell-and-howell/CIMG2745.JPG From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri May 13 22:08:28 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 05:08:28 +0200 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On 14 May 2016 at 04:34, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: >> Apple manufactured an OEM Apple ][+ ? Really? I was pretty sure the B&H's were an independent product. Apple licensed them to try to step on the clone market. I can't fathom Apple letting someone else sell their own product (modulo case colour) at a price that undercut the official product. > > Every part but (iirc) the case was Apple's and Apple-branded. [..] Even the case, according to http://www.oldcomputers.net/bellandhowell.html "The normally beige case was colored black (only on the surface, it is still beige underneath)" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 13 23:26:25 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 00:26:25 -0400 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I imagine almost everyone used Letraset. They did. > That doesn't help me much > because Letraset made a zillion different fonts. They did. > In the absence of any details, I'll use some variant of Hevetica. That is probably a great start. The art from the Popular Science article should be a good guide. Here's a decent photo of a repro... http://www.cosmacelf.com/_Media/elf3_big_med_hr.jpeg Mine is missing some letters owing to how I got mine. I should figure out what I need and re-do my front panel. -ethan From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri May 13 23:26:45 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 00:26:45 -0400 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On 13 May 2016 at 22:06, william degnan wrote: > Today, who has a colorful case on their modern PC? If we exclude case modders, and people who build their own cases... Most "gaming" cases are slightly colourful. Still mostly one colour with highlights. Though the cases have very... interesting... design choices. A lot of time however you'll find colour in your components and of course the strange obsession with "Let's put LEDs on everything." Thus why a lot of cases marketed towards "gamers" have transparent plexi on the side. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 13 23:31:01 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 00:31:01 -0400 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Ever see one of those black computers from Hell and Bowel, that seem just > like an Apple? They _were_ an Apple - not a clone, but rebadged and with a few important mods (mentioned here by others with the RCA jacks and the power cord). The importance was there was often no budget for computer, but if you could order something from the B&H catalog, there *was* an A/V budget. Paperwork. It wasn't so much the "trust" in the B&H name, but the fact that you could use a P.O. and fill in your A/V accounting code and... *poof* a _computer_ shows up. Made it possible where other avenues were impossible. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 13 23:41:27 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 21:41:27 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <5736AC77.8010008@sydex.com> On 05/13/2016 09:26 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > A lot of time however you'll find colour in your components and of > course the strange obsession with "Let's put LEDs on everything." > Thus why a lot of cases marketed towards "gamers" have transparent > plexi on the side. It's not just LEDs, but intense "blue" LEDs. I'm starting to hate that color. --Chuck From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat May 14 00:02:25 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 01:02:25 -0400 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <5736AC77.8010008@sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <5736AC77.8010008@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 14 May 2016 at 00:41, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's not just LEDs, but intense "blue" LEDs. I'm starting to hate that > color. > Blue? That's so pass?! Right now the popularity is to go full *RAINBOW!* with the RGB LEDs... Though yeah, intense blue is getting just a bit annoying; though I admit I'd love to see a DECdatasystem-570 version of the PDP-11/70 panel (i.e. "the blue one") with blue LEDs instead of the standard red; or bright white. If only because those colours would fit. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Sat May 14 00:11:55 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 23:11:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 May 2016, Tor Arntsen wrote: > Even the case, according to http://www.oldcomputers.net/bellandhowell.html > "The normally beige case was colored black (only on the surface, it is > still beige underneath)" I think it looks pretty classy. It matches my slide projector. :-) I agree with those who protest the gawdy blue-LED-ridden 'gamer' cases and designs. Those just don't cut it. Personally, I'd go for sustainable-wood, tempered glass, and okay, molded plastics if they are done well and it has an SGI badge on it :-) Inevitably, I'm drawn to designs using metal, wood, glass and other expensive materials that few but boutique computer case makers would dare contemplate. Heh, but now I hear one of my co-workers who is an old DEC expert saying "... back when computers were made out of wood ..." and I think of some that *were* (I can at least see them on the web) and yeah, okay, so I wasn't around in the 60's and 70's. Well, I was in a portion of the 70's but I was considerably occupied with being born and other quite serious matters like house-training and tooth-growing which I believe is a decent excuse for not remembering all of the fine machines back then. One should always take the time to have a decent birth. I figure, if you are going to have a nice interior one has to consider the space a computer rig takes up, even on a KVM. It's going to be a significant feature in the room. If it's not locked up in a cabinet, it's going to be seen quite a bit. Might as well afford the machine as much design consideration as the furniture, if not a tad bit more. I like computers more than (most) furniture. Though I do some woodworking and furniture done right is cool, too. If they can compliment each other, so much the better. Of course, this is all a desktop consideration. Servers, I have a different design sense for (mostly pragmatic). -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Sat May 14 00:21:11 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 23:21:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > I don't remember the stack of RCA connectors, but yeah, Apple definitely > rode on the coat tails of Bell & Howell 16mm movie (and 35mm film strip) > projector sales :-) Scope out this picture if you have time: http://www.oldcomputers.net/pics/bandh-rear.jpg You can totally see the RCA jacks and other non-Apple-II-normal stuff going on back there. It's wacky looking and they totally got the "boring school A/V equipment" look down. However, now, in "retro" spect, (sorry) it looks a little cool. It's a bit like a Russian clone built like a brick ****hou**. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Sat May 14 00:27:44 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 23:27:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <5736AC77.8010008@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 May 2016, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Blue? That's so pass?! Right now the popularity is to go full *RAINBOW!* > with the RGB LEDs... It's wrong and a crime against nature. I hate that kind of flea market bait. > Though yeah, intense blue is getting just a bit annoying; though I admit > I'd love to see a DECdatasystem-570 version of the PDP-11/70 panel (i.e. > "the blue one") with blue LEDs instead of the standard red; or bright > white. If only because those colours would fit. They would, and I agree that it'd be neat-looking to the right observer. It's interesting to compare the modern blinkenlights in datacenters to the flippers and diagnostic LEDs, component LEDs, and even SGI's front panel CPU graphs. My favorite era of "really cool display tech" was FL displays that were really popular in the late 70's and all of the 80's. Old spectrum analyzers and things like that could be very classy and slick looking (even today). Then there's vue-meters. Folks, we need more excuses to add them everywhere... metal ones with beautiful backlight displays etc.. Power is a good enough excuse. We need to monitor that, right? -Swift From spacewar at gmail.com Sat May 14 02:02:37 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 01:02:37 -0600 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: I wrote: > In the absence of any details, I'll use some variant of Hevetica. On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:26 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That is probably a great start. The art from the Popular Science > article should be a good guide. I can't find a decent scan of the cover of that issue. > Here's a decent photo of a repro... > http://www.cosmacelf.com/_Media/elf3_big_med_hr.jpeg That's Bill Buzbee's ELF. He did a nice job. I've studied it a bit more. The "R" in Helvetica isn't a good match, and I don't like it. Adelle Sans Bold and District Std. Demi look like better matches, but I don't want to spend that much money. I think I'll go with Liberation Sans Bold and/or Liberation Sans Narrow Bold. They look close enough, other than having a horizontal base bar for the "1", and I think I can live with that. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat May 14 03:00:46 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 02:00:46 -0600 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: I wrote: > I think I'll go with Liberation Sans Bold and/or Liberation Sans Narrow > Bold. They look close enough, other than having a horizontal base bar > for the "1", and I think I can live with that. Here's a PDF showing an ELF switch panel with Liberation Sans Bold: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/elf/panel.pdf The inner circles for the switches are the 250 mil diameter hole, and the outer circle show the size of a typical internal lock washer that would be used. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 14 03:10:45 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 09:10:45 +0100 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <57367477.10007@sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <57367477.10007@sydex.com> Message-ID: <01c301d1adb8$1e26c4e0$5a744ea0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 14 May 2016 01:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) > > For the S/360 systems, there was a wide choice of colors. In fact, most of the > S/360s I saw initially were that orangish-red. I've heard it referred to as > "International Orange" in accordance with Federal Specification 595: Most other IBM kit came in a range of colors, and I was told by an IBMer that the salesman should have a chain of color samples but I have never seen one. As I recently said in a previous E-Mail many local councils avoid "Blue" as it has political implications. Normally certain colors were standard, and choosing others could result in longer delivery times... > > http://www.fed-std-595.com/FS-595-Paint-Spec.html > > In the early 1970s, CDC went from a beige and gray motif to blue glass and > fake woodgrain. > > NCR, Cray and Honeywell similarly had brightly-colored systems. > > Office interiors in the 1980s were often the bright primary upholstery, with > exposed structure and plumbing being painted similarly bright colors. It was a > bit much, reminiscent of the Pompidou centre in Paris. > > Styles change. I don't think much of deep blue as a color scheme. > > --Chuck > > > Dave From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 14 07:25:46 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 08:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps Message-ID: <20160514122546.1F11118C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rob Doyle > the 'objcopy' utility in the Binutils package can translate between > binary, tekhex, srec, ihex, etc. Right, but the problem is that I had dumps which were what the PDP-11 CPU saw, but due to hardware oddities on the M9301 board, the _ROM contents_ were diferent: bits 1-8 (_not_ 0-7, which would have been simpler :-) have to be inverted. I'm not sure any existing tool could manage that! Speaking of hardware oddities in the M9301, it seems the Tech Manual (EK-M9301-TM-001) has an error: it seems to indicate that the first (low) words in the PROM should contain the first words at 173000 ("address locations 773000 .. are located in the lower 256 words of the PROM", pg. 2-7). However, looking at the prints, the signal "765XXX L" is fed into the high address bit of the PROMs, and looking at how it is generated (Fig. 2-8, pg. 2-8) it should be low when the low addresses (765xxx) are being read, so the low addresses in the PROM should correspond to 765xxx? Also, looking at Mattis' read-out of the actual PROMs, they have the code that's at 773000 at 0x100 in the PROM. So it does seem as if the PROMs aren't organized the way the Tech Manual claims... Noel From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 14 12:30:08 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 10:30:08 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <5736AC77.8010008@sydex.com> Message-ID: <573760A0.70102@sydex.com> On 05/13/2016 10:27 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > They would, and I agree that it'd be neat-looking to the right > observer. It's interesting to compare the modern blinkenlights in > datacenters to the flippers and diagnostic LEDs, component LEDs, and > even SGI's front panel CPU graphs. My favorite era of "really cool > display tech" was FL displays that were really popular in the late > 70's and all of the 80's. Old spectrum analyzers and things like that > could be very classy and slick looking (even today). It seems that a number of the retro folks are fascinated by the 7-segment displays on cheap Taiwanese cases of the 80s and early 90s that can be made to display any number that you care to see, regardless of actual CPU clock speed (mine were set to display "Lo" and "Hi". Then there's the oscope tuning display on the Marantz 10B tuner. So eye candy has been with us for a long time. Note that the "look" back then was a brushed aluminum panel with matching knobs. Everyone had it. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Sat May 14 14:29:53 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 12:29:53 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation Message-ID: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> Hi all -- Got me an early MIPS workstation, an RC2030. I'm trying to track down a keyboard and mouse for it. The keyboard connector uses an 8-pin DIN connector. Anyone have any leads? (Or know what the pinouts and protocol might be?) Thanks, Josh From ed at groenenberg.net Sat May 14 13:23:59 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 20:23:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. In-Reply-To: References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <47893.10.10.10.2.1463250239.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Hi. After being sitting dormant for 5 years in pieces, it was time to reassemble my 11/34, but hit a problem (hung bus). What has been done so far : - removed all the cards from the backplane. - vacuum the backplane. - power up the BA11 and check the voltages. -> LTC is ok. -> ACLO & DCLO were 0V, replaced board in switch unit, ACLO & DCLO now ok. - measure voltage at back-plane with no cards, voltage reads 5.35 Volt, trimmed them down to 5.15 Volt (no load). - insert both CPU cards, KY11-LB card & bootstrap card, 5 full grant cards, DL11-W and bus terminator card. - power up the machine, voltages are 5.10 Volt, measured at the backplane. - run light is off - cntrl + boot shows register dump at printer. - sending a character to the console via 777566 does print it. All looks ok. - power down machine, add memory (M7981, 128KW) in slot 4, replacing a full grant card. - power up machine -> run light is on, does not get cleared by cntrl + halt. - power down & replace memory with grand card -> run light is off. - moving the memory card to slot 5 , 6, or 7 and fill the other slots with full grant cards, -> run light does stay on. - tried the same without the bus end termination card (as is suggested in the processor manual), no effect :( - tried a 2nd memory card (M8722, 128KW) in slot 4, 5, 6 or 7, no change. - visual checking the backplane wiring did not reveal any oddity. So what could be the problem here? The bus works without the memory, but with it, it gets a hung bus, arghhh... Any suggestion is welcome! Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 14 16:27:54 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 22:27:54 +0100 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14/05/2016 20:29, Josh Dersch wrote: > Got me an early MIPS workstation, an RC2030. I'm trying to track down a > keyboard and mouse for it. The keyboard connector uses an 8-pin DIN > connector. Anyone have any leads? (Or know what the pinouts and > protocol might be?) I don't know, but having seen quite a few older keyboards I'd guess that it's likely to be RS232 (+/- 12V) or RS423 (+/- 5V). Early SGIs and some 68000 machines I've seen elsewhere were like that, so a voltmeter might tell you something. Early SGIs, for example, were RS423 levels 600baud and up/down encoded (there's pinout and keycode tables in older IRIX manpages). -- Pete From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 14 16:41:10 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 17:41:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. Message-ID: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From Ed Groenenberg > - insert both CPU cards, KY11-LB card & bootstrap card, 5 full grant > cards, DL11-W and bus terminator card. > ... > - cntrl + boot shows register dump at printer. > ... > All looks ok I'm surprised the bootstrap ran OK with no memory at all in the machine. I vaguely STR that I had a machine that would not work like that, but maybe I'm wrong. (DEC bootstaps tend to do things like set the NXM vector, in low memory, so they can size memory; and when it gets the NXM (since there is no memory) from trying to touch the NXM vector, and tries to push the old PS and PC to service _that_, and gets _another_ NXM, that 'double bus fault' often causes many -11 processors to do a cheap suit) > power down machine, add memory (M7981, 128KW) What's an M7981? Did you mean an M7891 MS11-L? > - power up machine -> run light is on, does not get cleared by > cntrl + halt. This is where a UA11 would really help. I had similar issues with an -11/04, and the UA11 was a huge help in figuring out what's going on. One glance and you can see if a bus line is wedged, or something. > - power down & replace memory with grand card -> run light is off. Well, that's good sign - the memory card didn't fry anything, at least... > - tried a 2nd memory card (M8722, 128KW) Ooops. The MS11-M needs +/-12V, which is _not_ standard in most machines/backplanes). The EUB in the 11/24 and 11/44 (which this card is intended for) does have it. The really bad part is that those same pins usually carry +/-15V in most MUD backplanes. So hopefully you didn't fry it. It does have standard UNIBUS as well as EUB, but there's a jumper, IIRC. > So what could be the problem here? The bus works without the memory Two possibilities off the top of my head. i) The first memory card is bad (or configured incorrectly), or.. ii) The M7891 uses +/-15V as well as +5V? So maybe one of the other voltages is not so good? But you said the console worked, and I think that uses other voltages (at least, in EIA mode - not sure about 20mA, I never touch the stuff). Noel From north at alum.mit.edu Sat May 14 18:17:45 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 16:17:45 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. In-Reply-To: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 5/14/2016 2:41 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From Ed Groenenberg > > > - insert both CPU cards, KY11-LB card & bootstrap card, 5 full grant > > cards, DL11-W and bus terminator card. > > ... > > - cntrl + boot shows register dump at printer. > > ... > > All looks ok > > I'm surprised the bootstrap ran OK with no memory at all in the machine. I > vaguely STR that I had a machine that would not work like that, but maybe I'm > wrong. (DEC bootstaps tend to do things like set the NXM vector, in low > memory, so they can size memory; and when it gets the NXM (since there is no > memory) from trying to touch the NXM vector, and tries to push the old PS and > PC to service _that_, and gets _another_ NXM, that 'double bus fault' often > causes many -11 processors to do a cheap suit) If the bootstrap card is an M9312 with the standard console PROM, it does NOT require any memory to be present/accessible to get to the ODT prompt that prints out the registers and waits for a command. Only until you execute a device bootstrap command with 'diagnostics enabled' (the default) does the memory sizing/test/diagnostic code get exectuted. Listing: http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-248F1/23-248F1.lst So the system working to this level with no memory present is normal. > > > power down machine, add memory (M7981, 128KW) > > What's an M7981? Did you mean an M7891 MS11-L? > > > - power up machine -> run light is on, does not get cleared by > > cntrl + halt. > > This is where a UA11 would really help. I had similar issues with an -11/04, > and the UA11 was a huge help in figuring out what's going on. One glance and > you can see if a bus line is wedged, or something. Agreed, a bus probe would really be helpful in further debug. Given that the system does not even get back to the ODT prompt (which would not yet access memory) indicates that logic on the memory card is hanging the bus. Could be a bad bus driver interface chip (8641, etc). > > - power down & replace memory with grand card -> run light is off. > > Well, that's good sign - the memory card didn't fry anything, at least... > > > - tried a 2nd memory card (M8722, 128KW) > > Ooops. The MS11-M needs +/-12V, which is _not_ standard in most > machines/backplanes). The EUB in the 11/24 and 11/44 (which this card is > intended for) does have it. The really bad part is that those same pins > usually carry +/-15V in most MUD backplanes. So hopefully you didn't fry it. > It does have standard UNIBUS as well as EUB, but there's a jumper, IIRC. Bad idea to put this card in an 11/34. As indicated the +12V VDD rail on the memory chips is wired directly to the UNIBUS +15V line in the 11/34 (which can be set to +12V in the 11/44). So you placed +15V (or more likely up to +15.5V or so) onto the memory chip VDD lines. Some 16K chips had a 15V max spec on this pin, others only 13.2V. So it is possible you toasted so memory chips, or not, depending on manufacturer and their sensitivity to OV. In any event, DO NOT use this card again in the 11/34. It is not compatible with the backplane. > > So what could be the problem here? The bus works without the memory > > Two possibilities off the top of my head. i) The first memory card is bad (or > configured incorrectly), or.. ii) The M7891 uses +/-15V as well as +5V? So > maybe one of the other voltages is not so good? But you said the console > worked, and I think that uses other voltages (at least, in EIA mode - not > sure about 20mA, I never touch the stuff). > > Noel > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat May 14 21:38:38 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 19:38:38 -0700 Subject: DEC Correspondent LA12R-06 Ribbons Message-ID: I think I already know the answer to this ("no"), but is there any remaining source of usable, or at least restorable, ribbons for the DEC Correspondent printing terminal? The re-inking roller in the single ribbon that came with my printer is hard as a rock. Maybe I'll be able to restore the roller or fabricate a new one, but I wouldn't mind having more ribbons on hand in any case. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From davidk.collins at bigpond.com Sat May 14 21:39:47 2016 From: davidk.collins at bigpond.com (David Collins) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 12:39:47 +1000 Subject: News about hpmuseum.net In-Reply-To: <55c934.19c14b51.446582d9@aol.com> References: <55c934.19c14b51.446582d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <002301d1ae53$0c25fdb0$2471f910$@bigpond.com> A further update to the HP Computer Museum website. This weekend it appears the site was comprised and hacking files were found in the site. The site and associated mail accounts have been taken offline until the issue can be addressed Only a temporary outage but I can't say how long it will be yet. David Collins -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sent: Thursday, 12 May 2016 4:55 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: marc.verdiell at gmail.com Subject: Re: News about hpmuseum.net I am glad to see this effort of Jon's remain Independent. I believe he would have wanted it that way. Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 5/11/2016 11:50:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com writes: This is great news despite the sorrow. Thank you for that, the museum is such an awesome resource for HP collectors. I saw your video on the 2116 restoration were both Jon and you appear. We have at least one more at the CHM, just as a static display for now. I hope I can visit you in Melbourne one day. Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 10, 2016, at 2:25 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > The following was posted on hpmuseum.org this morning: > > *RE: Jon Johnston Passes * > As an update to the sad news of Jon Johnston's death, I can advise > that the HP museum and the hpmuseum.net website he built will be continued and maintained for the foreseeable future. > > Over the last 8 months I have worked with Jon in restoring items from his collection of equipment and, among a range of items, recently restored an HP2116A computer to working order - one of only two Jon was aware of in the world and the only one that's operational. > > At this stage we have not been able to access the website and put any notices or updates but that should be addressed shortly. > > Jon's wife has asked me to look after the museum and website for the foreseeable future and as much as possible, continue to develop the museum in line with Jon's vision and objectives. > > As a short background, I joined HP Australia in 1982 as a Customer Engineer maintaining HP3000s, HP250s, all peripherals, terminals etc. I stayed with HP for over 26 years (including 5 years in Palo Alto) in a range of Services roles and have many fond memories of the company and the people I worked with. > > While my ability to invest time into the museum is more limited than Jon's, I hope to honour both his memory and the legacy of the 'old HP' by keeping the museum going as best I can, hopefully with help from the HP interest groups across the world. > > David Collins > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat May 14 22:10:40 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 15:10:40 +1200 Subject: DEC Correspondent LA12R-06 Ribbons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I bought a few cases of those not all that long ago... Let me see if I can dig up the source. Mike On May 15, 2016 2:38 PM, "Mark J. Blair" wrote: I think I already know the answer to this ("no"), but is there any remaining source of usable, or at least restorable, ribbons for the DEC Correspondent printing terminal? The re-inking roller in the single ribbon that came with my printer is hard as a rock. Maybe I'll be able to restore the roller or fabricate a new one, but I wouldn't mind having more ribbons on hand in any case. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat May 14 22:30:05 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 20:30:05 -0700 Subject: DEC Correspondent LA12R-06 Ribbons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 14, 2016, at 20:10, Mike Ross wrote: > > I bought a few cases of those not all that long ago... Let me see if I can > dig up the source. Thanks, and I hope you can find the source! One of these days I'll try cleaning out the old dried ink in my ribbon's roller with some sort of solvent and then re-inking it, possibly by vacuum impregnation of some as-yet-undetermined type of ink. Even if it's restorable, I might wreck it with the wrong solvent or ink in the experimental process, so I would be happy to have some more ribbons in any case. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sat May 14 23:23:57 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:23:57 +1000 Subject: Softech p-System for Macintosh Message-ID: AEK recently uploaded this to Bitsavers (thanks Al!): http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/Softech/Macintosh_UCSD_Pascal.zip It was a surprise to re-learn of the port of UCSD p-System done for compact Macintosh. The diskettes were labelled: Softech Microsystems MacAdvantage UCSD Pascal UCSD Pascal 1 : V010.1B <-- diskette 1 UCSD Pascal 2 : V009.1B <-- diskette 2 It is not quite like the usual ports where the p-System ran stand-alone with its unique look-and-feel; this Macintosh port uses the System/Finder to host Applications that appear to mirror the functionality of the integrated programs from the p-System, so the editor is Editor, Pascal compiler is Compiler and so on. however, the Editor has Bill Duvall from Consulair Corporation in the About box. Bill/Consulair would later release the Lightspeed Pascal / C compilers (that were eventually sold to Symantec). This port dates from late 1984, and is running with System 1.1 and Finder 1.1g The p-System interpreter is sitting in the Pascal Folder along with a "Pascal Runtime", I guess similar to the usual p-System BIOS. Some screenshots here running via the vMac emulator: https://goo.gl/photos/UFPSru2aeTohQiLQ6 There are several posts on usenet about these early p-Systems ports, and some commentary about the Duvall Editor: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/fa.info-mac/JYqRwMNV1Y8/iMYwCb_I3XYJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/fa.info-mac/lMjtNcbIkBw/oUwObvvddIwJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/fa.info-mac/meJU-ITiDa0/U2dqBWKUK7wJ From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat May 14 23:43:12 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 21:43:12 -0700 Subject: CP/M for IBM Displaywriter Message-ID: <91791jmxxf6oy8fe3q7oi8yf.1463287263275@email.android.com> Hello All, I've seen references to a CP/M port for the IBM Displaywriter in magazines of the era. Has anyone ever seen this beast in real life? Better yet anyone have a copy of it? From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sun May 15 00:34:02 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 15:34:02 +1000 Subject: CP/M for IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: <91791jmxxf6oy8fe3q7oi8yf.1463287263275@email.android.com> References: <91791jmxxf6oy8fe3q7oi8yf.1463287263275@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Ali wrote: > I've seen references to a CP/M port for the IBM Displaywriter in magazines of the era. Has anyone ever seen this beast in real life? Better yet anyone have a copy of it? Thanks for the reminder, I'd been meaning to send an email here and elsewhere calling out the re-discovery of "CP/M-86" for the IBM 6580 Displaywriter. I understand that CP/M-86 was intended to be an actual product for the IBM Displaywriter, but I've not found an IBM product code for it, and I don't recall during my searches that I found anyone who actually used it as a released product. It could be that IBM asked Digitial Research to do the demonstration port so they could assess whether there was any interest in it. I contacted one of the Phoenix BIOS team who had also done a port of MS-DOS to Displaywriter and was assured this never became a released product. As it happens, the demonstration port of "CP/M-86" for the IBM Displaywriter has been hiding in plain sight for over 10-years. I have been looking for it for at least 5+ years ever since I became interested in Displaywriter and managed to acquire one in Australia. >From time to time I trawl back through the usenet archives attempting to track down details of the Displaywriter and came across an interesting comment by the people who recovered some of the original DRI disks. This recovery resulted in these diskettes being imaged back in 2005. The comment made a reference to a couple of diskettes labeled (DRI) "concurrent CP/M 86 DW Demo, Data Drive B (right" - it was speculated as to what they were but it seems no one examined them further at the time. I was intrigued by the initials DW and downloaded them and took a look, it was clear they were for the Displaywriter and they booted fine once I copied them onto 2D media (I initially tried the image as Type 1 diskettes but that didn't work). I'm double-quoting CP/M-86 deliberately since the diskette image on the Internet is actually of a demonstration port of something more than merely CP/M-86, it is some hybrid (or transitional) MP/M-86 and Concurrent CP/M-86, I have some screenshots here of it running: https://goo.gl/photos/UCH2TnfBunPub6xNA DRI was I think developing CCP/M-86 in late 1982, and had derived it from the MP/M-86 codebase and this demonstration port seems to be of this alpha or beta code for CCP/M-86. Other than the keyboard, diskettes and the screen, I've not been able to discover the extent of driver support for Displaywriter hardware (comms, printer). The IBM Displaywriter is a complex machine with several (factory) configuration options, and it was not originally designed to host multiple operating systems or to be (as easily) re-configurable like the IBM 5150 PC. You purchased the Displaywriter with a specific set of options. I doubt the demonstration CP/M-86 port can do much more than be a dumb terminal to CCP/M-86. Anyhow, you want to look here: http://www.cpm.z80.de/source.html under this section: NEW 04/10/2005 Miscellaneous DRI disks You'll need to use Dave Dunfield's utilities or similar to image the diskettes onto the 8-inch format. From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun May 15 00:34:48 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 22:34:48 -0700 Subject: HP41C Peripherals and Accessories? Message-ID: I just became the happy new owner of a nice old HP 41C calculator with a matching barcode wand. I haven't powered it up yet, as there's lots of battery compartment corrosion. I'm looking into getting one of the replacement flex circuit assemblies that have been made for it. I was quite curious about the 41C when I saw them in magazines, but I had never touched one before. My first HP calculator was a 28S, and I finally upgraded to a 48GX a couple of years ago. I think this 41C will be a fun addition to my collection once I get the battery compartment fixed up and get it running. If anybody has any interesting HP 41C peripherals or accessories available for trade, let's talk! eBay and I don't talk any more, so I need to find my new toys the old fashioned way. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun May 15 01:15:02 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 23:15:02 -0700 Subject: CP/M for IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: References: <91791jmxxf6oy8fe3q7oi8yf.1463287263275@email.android.com> Message-ID: <015201d1ae71$1e7de680$5b79b380$@net> > I understand that CP/M-86 was intended to be an actual product for the > IBM Displaywriter, but I've not found an IBM product code for it, and I > don't recall during my searches that I found anyone who actually used > it as a released product. Nigel, Thank you for the excellent and informative reply. I am not sure if I can add much more to what you said except to point out the following article (which you are probably already aware of): https://books.google.com/books?id=ZjAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA3&ots=k86wo--ofc&dq=ibm%20displaywriter%20cp%2Fm-86&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false And this blurb: https://books.google.com/books?id=CDAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA32&ots=lUpxjJzVBa&dq=veritas%20displaywriter%20cp%2Fm-86&pg=PA32#v=onepage&q&f=false And then of course there are the ads by the newly formed company: https://books.google.com/books?id=YzAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA65&ots=YkC0gSX_4t&dq=veritas%20displaywriter%20cp%2Fm-86&pg=PA65#v=onepage&q&f=false It would seem that the product was ready to be released in retail form. However, it was never an IBM product (or apparently allowed to be sold along IBM products) hence the lack of an FRU. Also I have never been able to find a price or a store ad referencing the product. It is almost like the cassette version of "Typing Tutor". All indications are that the product was created and was meant to be sold but if it did it apparently the volume was only in the single digits.... -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun May 15 01:19:34 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 23:19:34 -0700 Subject: CP/M for IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: References: <91791jmxxf6oy8fe3q7oi8yf.1463287263275@email.android.com> Message-ID: <015301d1ae71$c2547f30$46fd7d90$@net> One more link before I turn in: https://books.google.com/books?id=8y8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA2&ots=LkXMmddRn6&dq=ibm%20displaywriter%20cp%2Fm-86&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q&f=true Apparently other companies were developing and selling SW for the CP/M-86 on the Dispalywriter. -Ali From abs at absd.org Sun May 15 03:18:14 2016 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 09:18:14 +0100 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14 May 2016 at 20:29, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Got me an early MIPS workstation, an RC2030. I'm trying to track down a > keyboard and mouse for it. The keyboard connector uses an 8-pin DIN > connector. Anyone have any leads? (Or know what the pinouts and protocol > might be?) Quite a few of the mipsco boxes used PS/2 connectors, but that would probably be a little less interesting :) I suspect if you could upload a picture of the ports and send a link to the list its likely someone may recognise it... From ed at groenenberg.net Sun May 15 01:23:39 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 08:23:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. In-Reply-To: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56076.10.10.10.2.1463293419.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Sat, May 14, 2016 23:41, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From Ed Groenenberg > > > - insert both CPU cards, KY11-LB card & bootstrap card, 5 full grant > > cards, DL11-W and bus terminator card. > > ... > > - cntrl + boot shows register dump at printer. > > ... > > All looks ok > > I'm surprised the bootstrap ran OK with no memory at all in the machine. I > vaguely STR that I had a machine that would not work like that, but maybe > I'm > wrong. (DEC bootstaps tend to do things like set the NXM vector, in low > memory, so they can size memory; and when it gets the NXM (since there is > no > memory) from trying to touch the NXM vector, and tries to push the old PS > and > PC to service _that_, and gets _another_ NXM, that 'double bus fault' > often > causes many -11 processors to do a cheap suit) Could that be done on later models? (i.e. 11/24 and up?) > > > power down machine, add memory (M7981, 128KW) > > What's an M7981? Did you mean an M7891 MS11-L? Yes, a typo, it is a M7891. > > > - power up machine -> run light is on, does not get cleared by > > cntrl + halt. > > This is where a UA11 would really help. I had similar issues with an > -11/04, > and the UA11 was a huge help in figuring out what's going on. One glance > and > you can see if a bus line is wedged, or something. Ah, that reminds me, I have an original DEC Unibus analyzer, which is one of those small suitcase sized boxes and has a display for all bus signals. Stupid that I didn't think about that. > > > - power down & replace memory with grand card -> run light is off. > > Well, that's good sign - the memory card didn't fry anything, at least... > > > - tried a 2nd memory card (M8722, 128KW) > > Ooops. The MS11-M needs +/-12V, which is _not_ standard in most > machines/backplanes). The EUB in the 11/24 and 11/44 (which this card is > intended for) does have it. The really bad part is that those same pins > usually carry +/-15V in most MUD backplanes. So hopefully you didn't fry > it. > It does have standard UNIBUS as well as EUB, but there's a jumper, IIRC. Ah, well it was not set for EBU mode, but ISTR that there is a jumper which selects for +12 or +15 volt. > > So what could be the problem here? The bus works without the memory > > Two possibilities off the top of my head. i) The first memory card is bad > (or > configured incorrectly), or.. ii) The M7891 uses +/-15V as well as +5V? So > maybe one of the other voltages is not so good? But you said the console > worked, and I think that uses other voltages (at least, in EIA mode - not > sure about 20mA, I never touch the stuff). Yes, both +5 and +15 is used and measure ok on the backplane. > > Noel > Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From ed at groenenberg.net Sun May 15 01:33:02 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 08:33:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. In-Reply-To: References: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <47507.10.10.10.2.1463293982.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Sun, May 15, 2016 01:17, Don North wrote: > On 5/14/2016 2:41 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From Ed Groenenberg >> >> > - insert both CPU cards, KY11-LB card & bootstrap card, 5 full >> grant >> > cards, DL11-W and bus terminator card. >> > ... >> > - cntrl + boot shows register dump at printer. >> > ... >> > All looks ok >> >> I'm surprised the bootstrap ran OK with no memory at all in the machine. >> I >> vaguely STR that I had a machine that would not work like that, but >> maybe I'm >> wrong. (DEC bootstaps tend to do things like set the NXM vector, in low >> memory, so they can size memory; and when it gets the NXM (since there >> is no >> memory) from trying to touch the NXM vector, and tries to push the old >> PS and >> PC to service _that_, and gets _another_ NXM, that 'double bus fault' >> often >> causes many -11 processors to do a cheap suit) > > If the bootstrap card is an M9312 with the standard console PROM, it does > NOT > require any > memory to be present/accessible to get to the ODT prompt that prints out > the > registers and > waits for a command. Only until you execute a device bootstrap command > with > 'diagnostics > enabled' (the default) does the memory sizing/test/diagnostic code get > exectuted. > > Listing: http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-248F1/23-248F1.lst > > So the system working to this level with no memory present is normal. > >> >> > power down machine, add memory (M7981, 128KW) >> >> What's an M7981? Did you mean an M7891 MS11-L? >> >> > - power up machine -> run light is on, does not get cleared by >> > cntrl + halt. >> >> This is where a UA11 would really help. I had similar issues with an >> -11/04, >> and the UA11 was a huge help in figuring out what's going on. One glance >> and >> you can see if a bus line is wedged, or something. > > Agreed, a bus probe would really be helpful in further debug. Given that > the > system does not > even get back to the ODT prompt (which would not yet access memory) > indicates > that logic > on the memory card is hanging the bus. Could be a bad bus driver interface > chip > (8641, etc). > I'll hook up the bus analyzer and see it there is something to see. >> > - power down & replace memory with grand card -> run light is >> off. >> >> Well, that's good sign - the memory card didn't fry anything, at >> least... >> >> > - tried a 2nd memory card (M8722, 128KW) >> >> Ooops. The MS11-M needs +/-12V, which is _not_ standard in most >> machines/backplanes). The EUB in the 11/24 and 11/44 (which this card is >> intended for) does have it. The really bad part is that those same pins >> usually carry +/-15V in most MUD backplanes. So hopefully you didn't fry >> it. >> It does have standard UNIBUS as well as EUB, but there's a jumper, IIRC. > > Bad idea to put this card in an 11/34. As indicated the +12V VDD rail on > the > memory chips > is wired directly to the UNIBUS +15V line in the 11/34 (which can be set > to +12V > in the 11/44). > So you placed +15V (or more likely up to +15.5V or so) onto the memory > chip VDD > lines. > Some 16K chips had a 15V max spec on this pin, others only 13.2V. So it is > possible you > toasted so memory chips, or not, depending on manufacturer and their > sensitivity > to OV. I'll label the card as 'possible not working' for a test later in a proper machine. > In any event, DO NOT use this card again in the 11/34. It is not > compatible with > the backplane. > >> > So what could be the problem here? The bus works without the >> memory >> >> Two possibilities off the top of my head. i) The first memory card is >> bad (or >> configured incorrectly), or.. ii) The M7891 uses +/-15V as well as +5V? >> So >> maybe one of the other voltages is not so good? But you said the console >> worked, and I think that uses other voltages (at least, in EIA mode - >> not >> sure about 20mA, I never touch the stuff). >> >> Noel >> > > Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun May 15 07:29:22 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 08:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. Message-ID: <20160515122922.049E118C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Don North > If the bootstrap card is an M9312 with the standard console PROM, it > does NOT require any memory to be present/accessible to get to the ODT > prompt that prints out the registers and waits for a command. Ah, right you are; I'm not familiar with the M9312 codes (you seem to have that all well in hand :-), I've only studied the M873 and M9301 codes. But the M9301 'console without testing' code does in fact look like it would run without any memory in the machine. (Which explains some odd features in the code - I'd always wondered about the 'unusual' subroutine caling sequence, but now I see it allows it to work without any memory.) > From: Ed Groenenberg > ISTR that there is a jumper which selects for +12 or +15 volt. Not that I am aware of - see the power circuitry in the drawings, MP-00742, pg. 25. Maybe you're thinking of the M7891 (MS11-L), which does have such a jumper? >> The M7891 uses +/-15V as well as +5V? > Yes, both +5 and +15 is used and measure ok on the backplane. Actually, having looked at the prints, it also uses either -5V or -12V/-15V (there's a jumper). So you might want to figure out i) which your system has (in a BA11-K box, if you have an H745 'brick' you will have -15V, if an H754 -5V; if a BA11-L box, different versions of the H777 provide different voltages, but I'm too lazy to check :-), and ii) check to make sure the - voltage is good too. Although I doubt the - voltage is causing this problem; I'm pretty sure only the memory chips use it, so it's it's not right, probably the memory would return bad data, is all. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 15 10:44:04 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 08:44:04 -0700 Subject: Softech p-System for Macintosh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/14/16 9:23 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > Bill/Consulair would later release the Lightspeed Pascal / C compilers > (that were eventually sold to Symantec). > Lightspeed was done by Think Technologies in Lexington, MA. Consulair is a completely different product. http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/Entries/2010/3/13_Consulair_Mac_C.html Bit of triva, Bill wrote MPS on his personal Xerox Alto. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 15 11:17:24 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 09:17:24 -0700 Subject: CP/M for IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: <015301d1ae71$c2547f30$46fd7d90$@net> References: <91791jmxxf6oy8fe3q7oi8yf.1463287263275@email.android.com> <015301d1ae71$c2547f30$46fd7d90$@net> Message-ID: <5738A114.7040807@sydex.com> On 05/14/2016 11:19 PM, Ali wrote: > One more link before I turn in: > > https://books.google.com/books?id=8y8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA2&ots=LkXMmddRn6&dq=ibm%20displaywriter%20cp%2Fm-86&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q&f=true > > Apparently other companies were developing and selling SW for the > CP/M-86 on the Dispalywriter. I know that VEDIT was offered for the DW, but I'm not certain if it was done for the CP/M-86 version. Looking at the disk image, while I don't see anything resembling an ASCII-to-EBCDIC translation table, it's obvious that CP/M on the DW kept with the ASCII representation internally. This brings up the question of collating sequences and what to do about EBCDIC characters that have no corresponding ASCII representation. --Chuck From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sun May 15 11:20:18 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 02:20:18 +1000 Subject: Softech p-System for Macintosh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C3FB6CD-8D12-4647-B409-D240B3902E4D@retrocomputingtasmania.com> > On 16 May 2016, at 1:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Lightspeed was done by Think Technologies in Lexington, MA. > Consulair is a completely different product. > http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/Entries/2010/3/13_Consulair_Mac_C.html Thanks Al for the correction, there is more here too: http://collaboration.cmc.ec.gc.ca/science/rpn/biblio/ddj/Website/articles/DDJ/1991/9103/9103h/9103h.htm And some detail about MacPascal (forerunner of THINK Pascal): http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/Entries/2010/3/20_MacPascal_and_Think_Technologies.html > Bit of triva, Bill wrote MPS on his personal Xerox Alto. MPS? From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 15 12:30:42 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 10:30:42 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> On 5/14/16 12:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Got me an early MIPS workstation, an RC2030. I'm trying to track down a keyboard and mouse for it. The keyboard > connector uses an 8-pin DIN connector. Anyone have any leads? (Or know what the pinouts and protocol might be?) > > Thanks, > Josh there is a picture of it here https://books.google.com/books?id=IToEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT32&lpg=PT32&dq=mips+rc2030&source=bl&ots=UdhbMYdHZP&sig=MY1P4ipbj6PqBdoHAImi_MpuMsE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX9JvIzdzMAhVMXh4KHYsEBcAQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=mips%20rc2030&f=false looks like an AT keyboard and Logitech (serial?) mouse From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Sun May 15 12:28:06 2016 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 20:28:06 +0300 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <00006ced912f$dc5c168d$e3aed94c$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Hello! You have a new message, please read steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun May 15 13:52:37 2016 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP 21MX keys Message-ID: Does anyone here know if the front panel key for an E-series 21MX machine (2109E/2113E) will fit a 2117F machine? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun May 15 14:26:09 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 12:26:09 -0700 Subject: HP 21MX keys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > Does anyone here know if the front panel key for an E-series 21MX machine > (2109E/2113E) will fit a 2117F machine? > I have a 2113B in a rack. A Corbin 4T1427 key fits the lock on the rack front door and also the 2113B front panel. The same Corbin 4T1427 key also fits the front panel of the 2117F that I have. The keys look just like the ones in these pictures: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102668532 Is the 4T1427 number a code from which a new key could be created without an existing key to duplicate? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun May 15 15:24:04 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 16:24:04 -0400 Subject: Softech p-System for Macintosh In-Reply-To: <6C3FB6CD-8D12-4647-B409-D240B3902E4D@retrocomputingtasmania.com> References: <6C3FB6CD-8D12-4647-B409-D240B3902E4D@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: On 2016-05-15 12:20 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > >> On 16 May 2016, at 1:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Lightspeed was done by Think Technologies in Lexington, MA. >> Consulair is a completely different product. >> http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/Entries/2010/3/13_Consulair_Mac_C.html > > Thanks Al for the correction, there is more here too: > http://collaboration.cmc.ec.gc.ca/science/rpn/biblio/ddj/Website/articles/DDJ/1991/9103/9103h/9103h.htm > > And some detail about MacPascal (forerunner of THINK Pascal): > > http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/Entries/2010/3/20_MacPascal_and_Think_Technologies.html > >> Bit of triva, Bill wrote MPS on his personal Xerox Alto. > > MPS? > I'm sure he meant MDS. Which back then I used on a Mac XL, alongside Whitesmiths C (and a 1983 draft Inside Mac which I still have). --Toby From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 15 15:02:17 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 16:02:17 -0400 Subject: DEC H742a vs. h7420a power supplies Message-ID: I may have mentioned here that I have a PDP 11/40 with a DEC H742a and another with a h7420a power supply. The boards and configurations differ, but they seem to be functionally alike. Anyone have a second opinion? I have been treating them as if they are interchangeable. Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Sun May 15 16:07:21 2016 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:07:21 -0700 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My budget for this is around $1000 Regards, On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > Hi, > > I'm willing to spend a bit on an IBM 3290 at this point. If you have one, > and want to discuss "a bit", please contact me. > > Regards, > Kevin > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 15 16:11:10 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:11:10 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> On 5/15/16 10:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 5/14/16 12:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Hi all -- >> >> Got me an early MIPS workstation, an RC2030. I'm trying to track down a keyboard and mouse for it. The keyboard >> connector uses an 8-pin DIN connector. Anyone have any leads? (Or know what the pinouts and protocol might be?) >> >> Thanks, >> Josh > there is a picture of it here > > https://books.google.com/books?id=IToEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT32&lpg=PT32&dq=mips+rc2030&source=bl&ots=UdhbMYdHZP&sig=MY1P4ipbj6PqBdoHAImi_MpuMsE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX9JvIzdzMAhVMXh4KHYsEBcAQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=mips%20rc2030&f=false > > looks like an AT keyboard and Logitech (serial?) mouse > > You're right, that does look like your standard AT keyboard and Logitech mouse. I tried an AT keyboard just a couple of minutes back and it's close, but it doesn't work properly. The keyboard LEDs cycle while the 2030's running its (very lengthy) diagnostics but once I get to a prompt, I get gibberish from it -- looks like the keyboard scancodes are completely different. (Just for fun I tried an XT keyboard and that doesn't work at all...) It does give me a place to start hacking, though... Thanks! - Josh From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun May 15 16:22:02 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:22:02 +1200 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow good luck with that. In 20 years I've only ever seen *one* - mine. It was working a few years ago but it's currently dead and I'm not optimistic; power supply issues - but there also seems some kind of 'blotchiness' inside the plasma display sandwich itself - like something has delaminated or leaked or something. If you find a small herd of them I'd certainly be interested in getting hold of another one. Mike On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 9:07 AM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > My budget for this is around $1000 > > Regards, > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Kevin Bowling > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm willing to spend a bit on an IBM 3290 at this point. If you have one, >> and want to discuss "a bit", please contact me. >> >> Regards, >> Kevin >> -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 15 16:31:38 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:31:38 -0700 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5738EABA.2000203@gmail.com> I got mine off of eBay about 2.5 years ago for I think $80? It needed some repairs to the keyboard connector (some monkey had wrenched it off). I ended up trading it away... - Josh On 5/15/16 2:22 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Wow good luck with that. In 20 years I've only ever seen *one* - mine. > It was working a few years ago but it's currently dead and I'm not > optimistic; power supply issues - but there also seems some kind of > 'blotchiness' inside the plasma display sandwich itself - like > something has delaminated or leaked or something. > > If you find a small herd of them I'd certainly be interested in > getting hold of another one. > > Mike > > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 9:07 AM, Kevin Bowling wrote: >> My budget for this is around $1000 >> >> Regards, >> >> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Kevin Bowling >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I'm willing to spend a bit on an IBM 3290 at this point. If you have one, >>> and want to discuss "a bit", please contact me. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Kevin >>> > > From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun May 15 16:34:46 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Sold mine, working, to silent700 last year for $40, free shipping Where were you then?! Silent, I swear if you re-sell it I'll cut you... ;) Sent from Outlook for iPhone ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Kevin Bowling Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 9:07:21 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need IBM 3290 My budget for this is around $1000 Regards, On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > Hi, > > I'm willing to spend a bit on an IBM 3290 at this point. If you have one, > and want to discuss "a bit", please contact me. > > Regards, > Kevin > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 15 16:34:14 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 22:34:14 +0100 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/05/2016 22:11, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 5/15/16 10:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> looks like an AT keyboard and Logitech (serial?) mouse > You're right, that does look like your standard AT keyboard and Logitech > mouse. I tried an AT keyboard just a couple of minutes back and it's > close, but it doesn't work properly. The keyboard LEDs cycle while the > 2030's running its (very lengthy) diagnostics but once I get to a > prompt, I get gibberish from it -- looks like the keyboard scancodes are > completely different. (Just for fun I tried an XT keyboard and that > doesn't work at all...) If it's that close that it's safe to connect to a PC, you could determine the scancodes by running "showkey -s" under linux. It might be something like "Set 3" which is what SGIs used to use (and documented in their manpages). And I found a page somewhere (sorry, forgot where) that mentioned using a Logitech Trackman on a RC2030 which worked "99% of the time" so a fairly common mouse might work. Most of the Logitech mice I've seen like the one in the picture Al found, were quadrature mice (X+, X-, Y+, Y- and 2/3 button signals) but presumably there were serial mice in that style too. -- Pete From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sun May 15 16:49:33 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 07:49:33 +1000 Subject: Softech p-System for Macintosh In-Reply-To: References: <6C3FB6CD-8D12-4647-B409-D240B3902E4D@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > I'm sure he meant MDS. Which back then I used on a Mac XL, alongside > Whitesmiths C (and a 1983 draft Inside Mac which I still have). I queried MPS since I don't see Bill Duvall listed as involved with MPS, or at least listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Programmer%27s_Workshop#History MPS, Macintosh Programmers System was the early name for MPW (Macintosh Programmers Workshop) "MPW was started in late 1985 by Rick Meyers, Jeff Parrish, and Dan Smith (now Dan Keller)" If it was MDS as you suggest then it would be good to have some background to fill in where it came from, is it mentioned anywhere else other than this? http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=3rd_Party_Developers_and_Macintosh_Development.txt It seems to lack a wikipedia entry. From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 15 17:01:17 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 15:01:17 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> On 5/15/16 2:34 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 15/05/2016 22:11, Josh Dersch wrote: >> On 5/15/16 10:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >>> looks like an AT keyboard and Logitech (serial?) mouse > >> You're right, that does look like your standard AT keyboard and Logitech >> mouse. I tried an AT keyboard just a couple of minutes back and it's >> close, but it doesn't work properly. The keyboard LEDs cycle while the >> 2030's running its (very lengthy) diagnostics but once I get to a >> prompt, I get gibberish from it -- looks like the keyboard scancodes are >> completely different. (Just for fun I tried an XT keyboard and that >> doesn't work at all...) > > If it's that close that it's safe to connect to a PC, you could > determine the scancodes by running "showkey -s" under linux. It might > be something like "Set 3" which is what SGIs used to use (and > documented in their manpages). > > And I found a page somewhere (sorry, forgot where) that mentioned > using a Logitech Trackman on a RC2030 which worked "99% of the time" > so a fairly common mouse might work. Most of the Logitech mice I've > seen like the one in the picture Al found, were quadrature mice (X+, > X-, Y+, Y- and 2/3 button signals) but presumably there were serial > mice in that style too. > Thanks for the info, I'll see if I can track down a compatible mouse. And scratch what I said about the keyboard -- recalling that there are "standards" and then there are "standards" I grabbed a different AT keyboard from the shelf and tried it, just in case. And it works perfectly. So, it's a "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). Thanks again, Josh From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun May 15 17:07:28 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 18:07:28 -0400 Subject: Macintosh Development System, MDS - was Re: Softech p-System for Macintosh In-Reply-To: References: <6C3FB6CD-8D12-4647-B409-D240B3902E4D@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: On 2016-05-15 5:49 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >> I'm sure he meant MDS. Which back then I used on a Mac XL, alongside >> Whitesmiths C (and a 1983 draft Inside Mac which I still have). > > I queried MPS since I don't see Bill Duvall listed as involved with > MPS, or at least listed here: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Programmer%27s_Workshop#History > > MPS, Macintosh Programmers System was the early name for MPW > (Macintosh Programmers Workshop) > > "MPW was started in late 1985 by Rick Meyers, Jeff Parrish, and Dan > Smith (now Dan Keller)" > > If it was MDS as you suggest then it would be good to have some > background to fill in where it came from, is it mentioned anywhere > else other than this? Macintosh Development System, MDS, is the product that Bill, and Consulair, is known for. It included an editor and assembler and was a shrinkwrap Apple product (this is before MPW was a thing). The link posted by Al Kossow has more information. --Toby > > http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=3rd_Party_Developers_and_Macintosh_Development.txt > > It seems to lack a wikipedia entry. > From sales at elecplus.com Sun May 15 17:54:37 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 17:54:37 -0500 Subject: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace Message-ID: <05d701d1aefc$c223c210$466b4630$@com> I am considering getting a multi-vendor marketplace setup. Right now I am looking for interested people who want to sell a few (or a lot) of vintage computer items and peripherals, like keyboards. The focus would be on vintage, although if you have some current things, those would be allowed too. I want to enable people from all over the world to list their items and collect payment without all the hassles of setting up an ecommerce site, and without the huge fees of eBay. Each seller would set their own shipping rates and countries they will ship to. Payments would go to the seller. The startup cost for this is about $1600, which I can pay, but in return for setting everything up and arranging the hosting, etc,. I would ask a small percentage (maybe 5%) to help defray the costs. This is the package I am looking at http://www.ixxocart.com/ixxo-multi-vendor. Please let me know your thoughts. The objective is to have one central place where people all over the world can offer others their surplus gear. This is NOT designed to be a marketplace for current items. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 500 Pershing Ave. Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 15 19:04:07 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 20:04:07 -0400 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a pair of them, but one is the oddball rectangular type. Being the completist jerk that I am, I need both. -- Will On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 5:07 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > My budget for this is around $1000 > > Regards, > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Kevin Bowling > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm willing to spend a bit on an IBM 3290 at this point. If you have one, >> and want to discuss "a bit", please contact me. >> >> Regards, >> Kevin >> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 15 19:07:16 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 20:07:16 -0400 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have a pair of them, but one is the oddball rectangular type. Being > the completist jerk that I am, I need both. Oops, I should say "oddball off-center rectangular type". -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 15 19:13:40 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 17:13:40 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/15/16 3:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > And it works perfectly. So, it's a > "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). > What are the pinouts off the 8-pin connector? I'm guessing the mouse uses the other pins. Digging on the web, this has been asked with no replies for at least 10 years. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 15 19:16:00 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 17:16:00 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d67f0e2-f59f-18af-4e0d-38e5c34ca98c@bitsavers.org> Is there still an os on the disk? The MAME guys might be interested in simulating it if you dump the roms and the hd. It wasn't obvious from the picture in the picture if the V50 had an eprom as well. I'm gussing the intel 40 pin part by the keyboard is an 8031? On 5/15/16 5:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/15/16 3:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> And it works perfectly. So, it's a >> "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). >> > > What are the pinouts off the 8-pin connector? > I'm guessing the mouse uses the other pins. > > Digging on the web, this has been asked with no replies for at least > 10 years. > > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun May 15 19:33:19 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:33:19 +1200 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 12:07 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I have a pair of them, but one is the oddball rectangular type. Being >> the completist jerk that I am, I need both. > > Oops, I should say "oddball off-center rectangular type". I didn't know there was more than one type! Pics? http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 15 19:35:56 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 20:35:56 -0400 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is identical, just wider on one side by a few inches. The plasma screen is the same. I suspect an earlier version. -- Will On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 12:07 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> I have a pair of them, but one is the oddball rectangular type. Being >>> the completist jerk that I am, I need both. >> >> Oops, I should say "oddball off-center rectangular type". > > I didn't know there was more than one type! Pics? > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 15 19:40:55 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 17:40:55 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <7d67f0e2-f59f-18af-4e0d-38e5c34ca98c@bitsavers.org> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> <7d67f0e2-f59f-18af-4e0d-38e5c34ca98c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <57391717.5020905@gmail.com> On 5/15/16 5:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Is there still an os on the disk? Yes, a kind listmember had archived the QIC install media for MIPS RISC/OS, I installed from that. When I got the machine, the system disk was dead, and could not be coaxed back to life. > The MAME guys might be interested in simulating it if you dump > the roms and the hd. It wasn't obvious from the picture in the > picture if the V50 had an eprom as well. I'm gussing the intel > 40 pin part by the keyboard is an 8031? I can double-check this week and dump the ROMs. I'll also look at the extra pins on the keyboard. I'll note that the jack is labeled just "KEYBOARD." There is nothing labeled "Mouse" anywhere on this thing... - Josh > > > On 5/15/16 5:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 5/15/16 3:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> And it works perfectly. So, it's a >>> "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). >>> >> What are the pinouts off the 8-pin connector? >> I'm guessing the mouse uses the other pins. >> >> Digging on the web, this has been asked with no replies for at least >> 10 years. >> >> >> > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun May 15 20:01:23 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 18:01:23 -0700 Subject: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace In-Reply-To: <05d701d1aefc$c223c210$466b4630$@com> References: <05d701d1aefc$c223c210$466b4630$@com> Message-ID: <001001d1af0e$78433b50$68c9b1f0$@net> > without the huge fees of eBay. Each seller would > set their own shipping rates and countries they will ship to. Payments > would go to the seller. The startup cost for this is about $1600, which > I can pay, but in return for setting everything up and arranging the > hosting, etc,. I would ask a small percentage (maybe 5%) to help defray > the costs. Without wanting to sound negative on this I am not sure what is in it for the buyers? Most sellers tend to oversell their vintage equipment (we have all seen phrases like "worked 30 years ago selling as is", "like new but untested", etc. etc.). Vintage packing also requires expertise and hefty costs something sellers usually don't want to undertake (I've lost count of how many broken monitors I have received). Yes they could pass the cost on to the buyer but when you are already asking $300 for a run of the mill IBM 5150 you are going to be hard pressed to find someone who is also willing to fork over another $100 to ship it. Those "hassles" you refer to help buyers feel safe in bidding and buying on eBay and probably are essential in some of the high crazy final auction prices you see. Unless you plan to offset those protections somehow (e.g. all items must start at $0.99 auction and bidding increments are locked at $0.25, etc, etc) I don't see buyers rushing to pay large sums of cold hard cash to strangers half a world away without guarantees that are backed by the auction site. Even for the sellers I am not seeing the big draw eBay charges a 10% fee and you want to charge %5. If they are accepting PP for payments well then the buyers have a six month return period and many of the same protections, I mean hassles, as eBay. If people really just want to sell (and not think they have hit the jack pot because they have some tattered boxed non-working monochrome monitor) then the marketplace on the VCF is great. No fees and no headaches for the sellers and for the buyers reasonable to low prices (yeah no one is paying a $1000 for a KB on the marketplace) which is why most sellers don't like it. I would love to see a specialized vintage bazaar where you can find what you want at a reasonable price from trusted sources but the reality is that will never happen in e-commerce. For better and worse eBay has spoiled us and created certain expectation. The only way we could ever have a decent vintage exchange would be to have a swap meet which is of course its own logical nightmare (not to mention the massive over head costs). Just my two worthless cents... -Ali > This is the package I am looking at > > http://www.ixxocart.com/ixxo-multi-vendor. > Please let me know your thoughts. > > > > The objective is to have one central place where people all over the > world can offer others their surplus gear. This is NOT designed to be a > marketplace for current items. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 500 Pershing Ave. > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > From sales at elecplus.com Sun May 15 21:24:03 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 21:24:03 -0500 Subject: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace In-Reply-To: <001001d1af0e$78433b50$68c9b1f0$@net> References: <05d701d1aefc$c223c210$466b4630$@com> <001001d1af0e$78433b50$68c9b1f0$@net> Message-ID: <05e401d1af1a$04003cf0$0c00b6d0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ali Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 8:01 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace > without the huge fees of eBay. Each seller would set their own > shipping rates and countries they will ship to. Payments would go to > the seller. The startup cost for this is about $1600, which I can pay, > but in return for setting everything up and arranging the hosting, > etc,. I would ask a small percentage (maybe 5%) to help defray the > costs. Without wanting to sound negative on this I am not sure what is in it for the buyers? Most sellers tend to oversell their vintage equipment (we have all seen phrases like "worked 30 years ago selling as is", "like new but untested", etc. etc.). Vintage packing also requires expertise and hefty costs something sellers usually don't want to undertake (I've lost count of how many broken monitors I have received). Yes they could pass the cost on to the buyer but when you are already asking $300 for a run of the mill IBM 5150 you are going to be hard pressed to find someone who is also willing to fork over another $100 to ship it. Those "hassles" you refer to help buyers feel safe in bidding and buying on eBay and probably are essential in some of the high crazy final auction prices you see. Unless you plan to offset those protections somehow (e.g. all items must start at $0.99 auction and bidding increments are locked at $0.25, etc, etc) I don't see buyers rushing to pay large sums of cold hard cash to strangers half a world away without guarantees that are backed by the auction site. Even for the sellers I am not seeing the big draw eBay charges a 10% fee and you want to charge %5. If they are accepting PP for payments well then the buyers have a six month return period and many of the same protections, I mean hassles, as eBay. If people really just want to sell (and not think they have hit the jack pot because they have some tattered boxed non-working monochrome monitor) then the marketplace on the VCF is great. No fees and no headaches for the sellers and for the buyers reasonable to low prices (yeah no one is paying a $1000 for a KB on the marketplace) which is why most sellers don't like it. I would love to see a specialized vintage bazaar where you can find what you want at a reasonable price from trusted sources but the reality is that will never happen in e-commerce. For better and worse eBay has spoiled us and created certain expectation. The only way we could ever have a decent vintage exchange would be to have a swap meet which is of course its own logical nightmare (not to mention the massive over head costs). Just my two worthless cents... -Ali My experience is that eBay charges actually amount to about 38% of the final sell price. They actually charge a percentage of the shipping fees too, not to mention fees for pictures, and anything else they can think of. It has been years since I sold much on eBay, but the experience really soured me. So far I am only asking people on a couple of trusted lists if they want to join. Sure eBay has tons of buyers, but if we get participants from all over the world to sell, then we will have lots of buyers too. Nothing is huge immediately; it takes time to grow. Rules can always be set for returns, and if a sellers is worth his salt, he knows how to pack. That being said, I have been packing things for over 20 years, and UPS still manages to smash or lose some things. That is just the way it goes. My thought was that it would be a great thing to have a vintage computer marketplace, one dedicated spot for items dedicated to old computers and related items, without having to sort through tons of unrelated stuff. How many times have you looked up 720K diskettes, and found recipes or something instead? What is to guarantee that an eBay seller knows what he is doing? Also, this is a fixed price system, not an auction. I looked at multi-seller auctions, and most of them fell short in several areas, or else they were about $10K or more to buy. That is beyond my means. The 5% is just to defray costs. I am not looking at making money off other sellers. Any effort like this is a lot of work. People mentioned that they would like to see a centralized selling system, and I am willing to make the leap, if people want to join me. -Cindy From halarewich at gmail.com Sun May 15 21:43:07 2016 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 19:43:07 -0700 Subject: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace In-Reply-To: <05e401d1af1a$04003cf0$0c00b6d0$@com> References: <05d701d1aefc$c223c210$466b4630$@com> <001001d1af0e$78433b50$68c9b1f0$@net> <05e401d1af1a$04003cf0$0c00b6d0$@com> Message-ID: Basic fees for auction-style and fixed price listings Insertion fee (per listing, for any duration, including Good 'Til Cancelled*) Final value fee (per item) Your first 50 listings (per month) Free (exclusions apply) 10% of the total amount of the sale Maximum fee is $750 All additional listings over 50 (per month) $0.30 (Insertion fee credited back if your item sells, for eligible auction-style listings)

Virus-free. www.avast.com
On 5/15/16, Electronics Plus wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ali > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 8:01 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace > >> without the huge fees of eBay. Each seller would set their own >> shipping rates and countries they will ship to. Payments would go to >> the seller. The startup cost for this is about $1600, which I can pay, >> but in return for setting everything up and arranging the hosting, >> etc,. I would ask a small percentage (maybe 5%) to help defray the >> costs. > > Without wanting to sound negative on this I am not sure what is in it for > the buyers? Most sellers tend to oversell their vintage equipment (we have > all seen phrases like "worked 30 years ago selling as is", "like new but > untested", etc. etc.). Vintage packing also requires expertise and hefty > costs something sellers usually don't want to undertake (I've lost count of > how many broken monitors I have received). Yes they could pass the cost on > to the buyer but when you are already asking $300 for a run of the mill IBM > 5150 you are going to be hard pressed to find someone who is also willing > to > fork over another $100 to ship it. > > Those "hassles" you refer to help buyers feel safe in bidding and buying on > eBay and probably are essential in some of the high crazy final auction > prices you see. Unless you plan to offset those protections somehow (e.g. > all items must start at $0.99 auction and bidding increments are locked at > $0.25, etc, etc) I don't see buyers rushing to pay large sums of cold hard > cash to strangers half a world away without guarantees that are backed by > the auction site. > > Even for the sellers I am not seeing the big draw eBay charges a 10% fee > and > you want to charge %5. If they are accepting PP for payments well then the > buyers have a six month return period and many of the same protections, I > mean hassles, as eBay. > > If people really just want to sell (and not think they have hit the jack > pot > because they have some tattered boxed non-working monochrome monitor) then > the marketplace on the VCF is great. No fees and no headaches for the > sellers and for the buyers reasonable to low prices (yeah no one is paying > a > $1000 for a KB on the marketplace) which is why most sellers don't like it. > > I would love to see a specialized vintage bazaar where you can find what > you > want at a reasonable price from trusted sources but the reality is that > will > never happen in e-commerce. For better and worse eBay has spoiled us and > created certain expectation. The only way we could ever have a decent > vintage exchange would be to have a swap meet which is of course its own > logical nightmare (not to mention the massive over head costs). > > Just my two worthless cents... > > -Ali > > My experience is that eBay charges actually amount to about 38% of the > final > sell price. They actually charge a percentage of the shipping fees too, not > to mention fees for pictures, and anything else they can think of. It has > been years since I sold much on eBay, but the experience really soured me. > > So far I am only asking people on a couple of trusted lists if they want to > join. Sure eBay has tons of buyers, but if we get participants from all > over > the world to sell, then we will have lots of buyers too. Nothing is huge > immediately; it takes time to grow. Rules can always be set for returns, > and > if a sellers is worth his salt, he knows how to pack. That being said, I > have been packing things for over 20 years, and UPS still manages to smash > or lose some things. That is just the way it goes. > > My thought was that it would be a great thing to have a vintage computer > marketplace, one dedicated spot for items dedicated to old computers and > related items, without having to sort through tons of unrelated stuff. How > many times have you looked up 720K diskettes, and found recipes or > something > instead? What is to guarantee that an eBay seller knows what he is doing? > > Also, this is a fixed price system, not an auction. I looked at > multi-seller > auctions, and most of them fell short in several areas, or else they were > about $10K or more to buy. That is beyond my means. The 5% is just to > defray > costs. I am not looking at making money off other sellers. Any effort like > this is a lot of work. People mentioned that they would like to see a > centralized selling system, and I am willing to make the leap, if people > want to join me. > > -Cindy > > -- Chris Halarewich From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 15 22:18:52 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 20:18:52 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <57391717.5020905@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> <7d67f0e2-f59f-18af-4e0d-38e5c34ca98c@bitsavers.org> <57391717.5020905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57393C1C.7040307@gmail.com> I disassembled the RC2030 to get at the motherboard and spent some time probing. This is a multi-layer board, quite thick, so tracing things down has proven difficult. Two of the three extra pins on the DIN connector for the keyboard are connected to a 74LS240, one as an input, one as an output; these pass through the 74LS240 and are routed through a pair of jumpers. Past this point I'm having a heck of a time figuring out what they're connected to -- it's nothing obvious like the serial controller. The third pin appears to be +5V. I also found this note in the MIPS PROM Monitor Reference (http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mips/PRM-01-DOC_PROM_Monitor_Ref_Jun92.pdf): "keyboard: Determines the type of keyboard used: MIPS (default) for the UNIX-style keyboard and AT for the AT-style keyboard (2030 and RC3x30). Default is AT for 4000 systems." So it looks like there are a couple of different keyboard types; it's possible that the UNIX-style keyboard uses all 8 pins, though that seems unlikely. Another interesting note regarding the "console" variable when set to "a" (though perhaps not applicable at all to the RC2030: " Enables all console devices. Do not use this value on a Rx3x30 system with a mouse attached to tty(0)." tty(0) is one of two serial ports on the rear. That would seem to indicate a serial mouse -- I don't know whether the note about RX3x30 systems means there was no serial option on the RC2030, or that this option simply wouldn't cause an issue with a serial mouse on the RC2030. I suppose the easiest way to solve this would be to find an old Logitech mouse and just try it. I need to get the X software packages loaded on this thing first... - Josh On 5/15/16 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 5/15/16 5:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Is there still an os on the disk? > Yes, a kind listmember had archived the QIC install media for MIPS > RISC/OS, I installed from that. When I got the machine, the system > disk was dead, and could not be coaxed back to life. > >> The MAME guys might be interested in simulating it if you dump >> the roms and the hd. It wasn't obvious from the picture in the >> picture if the V50 had an eprom as well. I'm gussing the intel >> 40 pin part by the keyboard is an 8031? > I can double-check this week and dump the ROMs. I'll also look at the > extra pins on the keyboard. I'll note that the jack is labeled just > "KEYBOARD." There is nothing labeled "Mouse" anywhere on this thing... > > - Josh > >> >> >> On 5/15/16 5:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> >>> On 5/15/16 3:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> And it works perfectly. So, it's a >>>> "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). >>>> >>> What are the pinouts off the 8-pin connector? >>> I'm guessing the mouse uses the other pins. >>> >>> Digging on the web, this has been asked with no replies for at least >>> 10 years. >>> >>> >>> >> > From useddec at gmail.com Sun May 15 20:59:36 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 20:59:36 -0500 Subject: DEC H742a vs. h7420a power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the main difference is the H7420, which is the newer of the two, can handle more current. On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 3:02 PM, william degnan wrote: > I may have mentioned here that I have a PDP 11/40 with a DEC H742a and > another with a h7420a power supply. The boards and configurations differ, > but they seem to be functionally alike. Anyone have a second opinion? I > have been treating them as if they are interchangeable. > Bill > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 15 22:05:15 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 23:05:15 -0400 Subject: DEC H742a vs. h7420a power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: to clarify, I mean the power supply controllers' boards, not the computers'. There is scant info about the h7420a On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 4:02 PM, william degnan wrote: > I may have mentioned here that I have a PDP 11/40 with a DEC H742a and > another with a h7420a power supply. The boards and configurations differ, > but they seem to be functionally alike. Anyone have a second opinion? I > have been treating them as if they are interchangeable. > Bill > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > > > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon May 16 00:16:31 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 22:16:31 -0700 Subject: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace In-Reply-To: <05e401d1af1a$04003cf0$0c00b6d0$@com> References: <05d701d1aefc$c223c210$466b4630$@com> <001001d1af0e$78433b50$68c9b1f0$@net> <05e401d1af1a$04003cf0$0c00b6d0$@com> Message-ID: <000001d1af32$1cadc1b0$56094510$@net> > My experience is that eBay charges actually amount to about 38% of the > final sell price. They actually charge a percentage of the shipping > fees too, not to mention fees for pictures, and anything else they can > think of. It has been years since I sold much on eBay, but the > experience really soured me. Not sure when you last used eBay but for the casual seller (let us say 10-20 items a month) there is a straight 10% fee (yes including S&H - but that is because of those sellers who used to sell TVs for $0.01 w/ a $3000 S&H to avoid fees) and 12 free pictures. If you get fancy (bigger pictures, multiple categories, etc.) there is other fees. However, for your run of the mill guy trying to clear some extra stuff it is a flat 10%. > So far I am only asking people on a couple of trusted lists if they > want to join. Sure eBay has tons of buyers, but if we get participants > from all over the world to sell, then we will have lots of buyers too. I am not sure how this follows? If you have lots of participants with great goods yes you will attract buyers but getting buyers to pay without guarantees will be much harder. > Nothing is huge immediately; it takes time to grow. Rules can always be > set for returns, and if a sellers is worth his salt, he knows how to > pack. That being said, I have been packing things for over 20 years, > and UPS still manages to smash or lose some things. That is just the > way it goes. I agree with everything you said but the problem becomes how you handle returns and the well packed broken item. Right now eBay makes sure the buyer is protected which encourages people to buy on eBay. This is a hassle for sellers (and I am not going to debate the merits one way or the other but will acknowledge that the system is abused by some buyers) so if you eliminate the hassle you eliminate buyers willingness to spend. > > My thought was that it would be a great thing to have a vintage > computer marketplace, one dedicated spot for items dedicated to old > computers and related items, without having to sort through tons of > unrelated stuff. I agree with this completely. I am not sure if we need another site though. We could just encourage people to go to the VCF Marketplace. If it grows so that the Marketplace is inadequate then one can look at other options. How many times have you looked up 720K diskettes, and > found recipes or something instead? What is to guarantee that an eBay > seller knows what he is doing? Absolutely nothing but again eBay takes the risk out of the clueless seller for the buyer so not a huge problem. > Also, this is a fixed price system, not an auction. I looked at multi- > seller auctions, and most of them fell short in several areas, or else > they were about $10K or more to buy. If it is simply fixed price then I am again going to ask why reinvent the wheel? That is beyond my means. The 5% is > just to defray costs. I am not looking at making money off other > sellers. Any effort like this is a lot of work. People mentioned that > they would like to see a centralized selling system, and I am willing > to make the leap, if people want to join me. I agree that this is a major undertaking and will probably not be a major revenue source. My point wasn't that your 5% is unreasonable merely that it isn't a big difference from eBay costs. No matter where this is setup once it gets big enough it must generate some revenue to defray costs. I applaud you for taking the initiative. This list really does not have much in the way of selling but VCF, Amigabay, and a few others definitely do. It would be nice to hit one site or search engine to see all listings. -Ali From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 16 01:45:55 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 01:45:55 -0500 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Sold mine, working, to silent700 last year for $40, free shipping > Where were you then?! > > Silent, I swear if you re-sell it I'll cut you... ;) It ain't going anywhere. But it's also missing the keyboard connector. Was this one Josh's? And most important - who's the monkey?? j From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 16 02:07:41 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:07:41 +0200 Subject: PDP-12 Space Wars Message-ID: <20160516070740.GA17307@Update.UU.SE> Hi I have some time scheduled to work on the PDP-12 at Update. It's uncertain if the machine works at the moment, it has had some intermittent problems, but if it does or we can get it working I would like to get Space Wars running on the thing. I have found source for a few versions for PDP-8 with LAB-8/e and for PDP-12: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/spacewar/ http://www.rcsri.org/collection/pdp-12/ I'm not sure if any of the PDP-8 versions will run without porting and I'm not even sure which assembler to use for the PDP-12 versions. So, I'm hoping someone reading this has somewhat fresh memory of what is needed to build and run space wars on a PDP-12. Perhaps someone even has an assembled version. We have LAP6-DIAL and means to transfer files to the PDP-12 over the serial interface. /P From spacewar at gmail.com Mon May 16 02:56:54 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 01:56:54 -0600 Subject: [OT] rasterize text in arbitrary fonts for Eagle CAD silkscreen Message-ID: I got tired of it being a royal pain in the ass to get fancy text (defined as anything other than the Eagle CAD built-in vector font) on the silkscreen of my boards. I wrote a Python 3 program (requiring cairocffi) to generate an Eagle CAD library file containing "devices" and "packages" of rasterized text, for use on silkscreen (or any other layer you choose). https://github.com/brouhaha/eagletext Requires Python 3, cairocffi Only tested on Fedora 23 x86_64 with Python 3.4.3, cairocffi 0.6, cffi 1.4.2, cairo 1.14.2 It will probably work on other reasonably recent Linux distributions. I haven't the slightest idea how to get it working on Windows or MacOS, though if cairocffi is available it may work. I also can't tell you, even on Linux, what arguments you can use with the "--font" option, other than that it has to be something the cairo library understands. From microtechdart at gmail.com Mon May 16 03:01:19 2016 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 03:01:19 -0500 Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ian, could you reply with a link to what you refer to as IRIS 68k hardware? This catches my attention, and I just want to make certain that this isn't related to what I've been working on. Maybe it's just a coincidence, because I've been restoring an IRIS OS (from Point 4), and independently, the Convergent Technologies Mightyframe, which is a 68k system. The 2 are not related, but when you mention them together, I'm really really curious what you mean. Thanks! -AJ On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > I know this is a long shot, but these have been on my list for a while. > > I am located in Seattle but am not opposed to arranging freight or local > pick-up. > > Would like to purchase but would also consider trades. > > Thanks, > > - Ian > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From derschjo at gmail.com Mon May 16 03:02:06 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 01:02:06 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <57393C1C.7040307@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> <7d67f0e2-f59f-18af-4e0d-38e5c34ca98c@bitsavers.org> <57391717.5020905@gmail.com> <57393C1C.7040307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57397E7E.6000604@gmail.com> And I've placed EPROM images at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mips/ There is not a separate ROM set for the V50. - Josh On 5/15/16 8:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I disassembled the RC2030 to get at the motherboard and spent some > time probing. This is a multi-layer board, quite thick, so tracing > things down has proven difficult. Two of the three extra pins on the > DIN connector for the keyboard are connected to a 74LS240, one as an > input, one as an output; these pass through the 74LS240 and are routed > through a pair of jumpers. Past this point I'm having a heck of a > time figuring out what they're connected to -- it's nothing obvious > like the serial controller. The third pin appears to be +5V. > > I also found this note in the MIPS PROM Monitor Reference > (http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mips/PRM-01-DOC_PROM_Monitor_Ref_Jun92.pdf): > > > "keyboard: Determines the type of keyboard used: MIPS (default) for > the UNIX-style keyboard and AT for the AT-style keyboard (2030 and > RC3x30). Default is AT for 4000 systems." > > So it looks like there are a couple of different keyboard types; it's > possible that the UNIX-style keyboard uses all 8 pins, though that > seems unlikely. > > Another interesting note regarding the "console" variable when set to > "a" (though perhaps not applicable at all to the RC2030: > > " Enables all console devices. Do not use this value on a Rx3x30 > system with a mouse attached to tty(0)." > > tty(0) is one of two serial ports on the rear. That would seem to > indicate a serial mouse -- I don't know whether the note about RX3x30 > systems means there was no serial option on the RC2030, or that this > option simply wouldn't cause an issue with a serial mouse on the RC2030. > > I suppose the easiest way to solve this would be to find an old > Logitech mouse and just try it. I need to get the X software packages > loaded on this thing first... > > - Josh > > > On 5/15/16 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> On 5/15/16 5:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> Is there still an os on the disk? >> Yes, a kind listmember had archived the QIC install media for MIPS >> RISC/OS, I installed from that. When I got the machine, the system >> disk was dead, and could not be coaxed back to life. >> >>> The MAME guys might be interested in simulating it if you dump >>> the roms and the hd. It wasn't obvious from the picture in the >>> picture if the V50 had an eprom as well. I'm gussing the intel >>> 40 pin part by the keyboard is an 8031? >> I can double-check this week and dump the ROMs. I'll also look at >> the extra pins on the keyboard. I'll note that the jack is labeled >> just "KEYBOARD." There is nothing labeled "Mouse" anywhere on this >> thing... >> >> - Josh >> >>> >>> >>> On 5/15/16 5:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>>> >>>> On 5/15/16 3:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>>> And it works perfectly. So, it's a >>>>> "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). >>>>> >>>> What are the pinouts off the 8-pin connector? >>>> I'm guessing the mouse uses the other pins. >>>> >>>> Digging on the web, this has been asked with no replies for at least >>>> 10 years. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > From macro at linux-mips.org Mon May 16 03:05:17 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:05:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > And scratch what I said about the keyboard -- recalling that there are > "standards" and then there are "standards" I grabbed a different AT keyboard > from the shelf and tried it, just in case. And it works perfectly. So, it's > a "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). There's the XT keyboard (83 keys), the AT keyboard (84 keys; same as XT plus ) and the PS/2 keyboard (originally 101/102 keys, but other variants were later produced; this added the cursor pad, editing keys, , , etc.). The XT and AT keyboards have a different fixed scan code set each. For backwards compatibility with existing PC software the i8042 microcontroller used on original PC/AT systems to interface the keyboard translated AT scan codes on the fly to their XT equivalents; there's little hassle here, because the key set is almost the same. This translation can be disabled by software with a suitable command issued to the i8042, to reveal the native scan code set. With the PS/2 keyboard things turned different, the keyboard has 3 scan code sets to choose from. Again for backwards compatibility, it powers up in the AT scan code mode. Newly added keys are sent as multibyte codes with a 0xe0 prefix, which legacy software can ignore and still yield reasonable resultr; there are other quirks as well. Software can switch the keyboard into one of the other 2 modes, either XT or native PS/2, with a suitable command issued to the keyboard itself. For sensible results translation in the i8042 has to be disabled as well if using these modes. The XT mode is nothing fancy, again multibyte codes with a 0xe0 prefix are used and the same quirks are present, except XT scan codes are otherwise sent. The native PS/2 mode on the other hand presents a uniform single-byte scan code set across all keys, and the quirks are gone too. Unlike in the other modes individual keys can have their press, release and typematic events independently programmed. This is why some operating systems chose to reprogram the keyboard to use this mode. However, as usually, some hardware vendors did not feel compelled to implement this feature set correctly in keyboard firmware, because all they're cared was DOS/Windows compatibility and that software didn't bother to fiddle with the keyboard. Consequently some supposedly PS/2-compatible keyboards are hardwired to the AT mode. Worse yet, they return the success code for scan code switch commands, and happily ignore them, so flexible software can't figure out what's happening. And of course some i8042 firmware implementers "forgot" to implement the translation-disable command as well -- again with no means to detect the situation. So it looks to me like the first keyboard you've tried just suffers from crippled firmware. FWIW, Maciej From derschjo at gmail.com Mon May 16 03:27:30 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 01:27:30 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 1:05 AM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > On Sun, 15 May 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > And scratch what I said about the keyboard -- recalling that there are > > "standards" and then there are "standards" I grabbed a different AT > keyboard > > from the shelf and tried it, just in case. And it works perfectly. So, > it's > > a "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). > > <..snipped..> > > So it looks to me like the first keyboard you've tried just suffers from > crippled firmware. > Well, in this case, I suspect the firmware in the MIPS -- the first keyboard I tried was the original, official, IBM AT 84-key keyboard which I'd expect to do things right :). - Josh > > FWIW, > > Maciej > From derschjo at gmail.com Mon May 16 03:49:04 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 01:49:04 -0700 Subject: DEC L2001 processor needed for stupid endeavor Message-ID: Hi all -- A year or so ago I picked up a VAXStation 3520 (a dual-processor machine), which I eventually upgraded to a 3540 (quad processor). Then I heard rumor it was possible to get it up to 6 processors, a configuration that was never produced or supported by DEC. I can confirm that 6 processors do work properly. As do 8 processors, for that matter... I believe that if I remove the graphics option, I can get it up to 10 processors, at which point I'm out of MBUS slots, thus hitting the maximum possible. I just kinda want to see it work. I'm still looking for something "useful" to do with 10 processors on VMS; it's a shame there was never a distributed.net client for VAX VMS :). I'm having trouble tracking down one more L2001 processor board. Anyone have one lying around they'd like to donate to a very stupid cause? Thanks, Josh (here's the output from the VAX 3580's startup with 8 processors: KA60 V1.2 F..E..D..C..B..A..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1..0 5 01010004 L2003 4 ? V1.3 1 SSC 00000001 2 DZ 00031200 ? 3 NI 19210770 ? 4 SCSI 00000901 5 SYS 00000001 Tests completed. 00-E1,P1 03-E1,P1 08-E1,P1 0B-E1,P1 0C-E1,P1 0F-E1,P1 10-E1,P1 13-E1,P1 00 CPU00 >>> From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 16 04:26:25 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 11:26:25 +0200 Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160516092625.GB17307@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 03:01:19AM -0500, Microtech Dart wrote: > Ian, could you reply with a link to what you refer to as IRIS 68k hardware? I think this is unfortunately just a name clash. SGI's first generations of machines was called "IRIS" and ran an operating system called "GL2-WX.Y" where X.Y is a version number. GL-W2 is a System III unix port. The graphics subsystem was called "IRIS Graphics" Start reading here for mor info: http://www.sgistuff.net/hardware/systems/index.html > This catches my attention, and I just want to make certain that this isn't > related to what I've been working on. I'm quite certain it isn't. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong, maybe Convergent rebranded SGI's machines. It is not unheard of: http://hardware.majix.org/computers/sgi.iris/iris3130.shtml > Maybe it's just a coincidence, because I've been restoring an IRIS OS (from > Point 4), and independently, the Convergent Technologies Mightyframe, which > is a 68k system. The 2 are not related, but when you mention them > together, I'm really really curious what you mean. > > Thanks! > -AJ > From macro at linux-mips.org Mon May 16 06:58:25 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:58:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So it looks to me like the first keyboard you've tried just suffers from > > crippled firmware. > > > > Well, in this case, I suspect the firmware in the MIPS -- the first > keyboard I tried was the original, official, IBM AT 84-key keyboard which > I'd expect to do things right :). Then I think it's likely the machine actually wants a true PS/2 keyboard in its native scan code set 3. So there's nothing wrong with your IBM AT keyboard, and neither with your MIPSCO box, except that the two pieces are incompatible with each other. And software doesn't bother to detect the incompatibility -- as I recall an AT and a PS/2 keyboard can be told apart by issuing the right command or sequence of commands to the device and checking the response. I'd have to dig out my old code/notes to find the details as I did such stuff back in mid 1990s. Congrats on the trophy BTW -- as a MIPS person really I do recognise much value in it and I'm glad such a system survived. I wonder how many RC6260 machines, if any at all, are still around. Live specimens, preferably. Maciej From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon May 16 06:39:22 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 07:39:22 -0400 Subject: DEC H742a vs. h7420a power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 16, 2016 12:59 AM, "Paul Anderson" wrote: > > I think the main difference is the H7420, which is the newer of the two, > can handle more current. > Also, the h7420a is infinitely easier to work on, one just pops open the panel and the board folds out. The h742a is a bear to get to. Bill From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 16 09:37:11 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 08:37:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 Message-ID: Does anyone have a EIZO FlexScan EV2730QFX-BK monitor? I currently own an NEC MultiSync 17" LCD that does sync-on-green and works with my SGIs and other older systems. However, I'd love something bigger. The problem is that when I use widescreen monitors on systems which cannot display widescreen resolutions, everything is pretty distorted. My guess is that, since this is a newer monitor, it's not going to support sync-on-green. I'd still be tempted to get one, simply because I've grown to dislike widescreen for productivity uses (they are great for entertainment). However, at over $1k, it'd definitely have to support my retro gear to make it worth it. Now that I look, it says it only supports displayport and dual-link DVI. That means I'd need a scan converter to use it with older gear. Ugh. Well, anyone go down this road already? -Swift Some links to this beastie: http://www.eizo.com/products/flexscan/ev2730q/ http://www.amazon.com/FlexScan-EV2730QFX-Monitor-1920x1920-EV2730QFX-BK/dp/B00R58MLSY http://www.colorhq.com/Eizo-FlexScan-EV2730Q-26-5-LCD-Monitor-p/ev2730qfx-bk.htm From ethan at 757.org Mon May 16 09:46:51 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 10:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Does anyone have a EIZO FlexScan EV2730QFX-BK monitor? I currently own an > NEC MultiSync 17" LCD that does sync-on-green and works with my SGIs and > other older systems. However, I'd love something bigger. The problem is > that when I use widescreen monitors on systems which cannot display > widescreen resolutions, everything is pretty distorted. > My guess is that, since this is a newer monitor, it's not going to support > sync-on-green. I'd still be tempted to get one, simply because I've grown > to dislike widescreen for productivity uses (they are great for > entertainment). However, at over $1k, it'd definitely have to support my > retro gear to make it worth it. Now that I look, it says it only supports > displayport and dual-link DVI. That means I'd need a scan converter to use > it with older gear. Ugh. Well, anyone go down this road already? > -Swift Oh wow, the arcade world needs 4:3 27/29" and 25" LCDs pretty badly. That's a bit on the pricy side, don't need that kind of resolution for games that run at 640x480 :-) You could buy one then return it? -- Ethan O'Toole From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 16 10:44:01 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:44:01 -0600 (MDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Oh wow, the arcade world needs 4:3 27/29" and 25" LCDs pretty badly. Don't they just! I come across tons of folks wanting to replace their 4:3 CRT with an LCD in arcade cabinets all the time. I wonder why, with all the niche electronics in the world these days, some company hasn't made panels with 640x480 display resolution at large sizes as replacements. I guess the companies that make LCDs just aren't interested (yet). I have noticed a few niche CRT makers trying to fill that gap. CRTs look better than LCDs do in many cases because of the cheap anti-aliasing you get from the phosphor and interlacing (just my opinion). However, LCDs offer some nice advantages these days. > That's a bit on the pricy side, don't need that kind of resolution for > games that run at 640x480 :-) Large panels would be a godsend for me, I have early onset macular degeneration in my retinae. I get that folks think I'm crazy for not buying a 4k panel and then jacking up the fonts. What those folks don't seem to understand (at all) is that I've already tried it. Yes, Windows, MacOS, and to some extent Linux have features to crank the fonts way up in your windowing system and for most applications. However, FAR from what some people claim, those features are very inconsistent. Apps often set font sizes which are immutable, controls/icons (or anything bitmapped for that matter) still get shrunk *way* down, and older systems don't support that type of thing at all (and I use a lot of older systems via KVM switch). Using a 4k monitor also sucks (hard) when using emulation packages like dosbox or UAE. They appear in categorically *tiny* windows, and if you use a scaler for that resolution it eats (just about any) CPU doing all the interpolation etc.. and your emulation slows down noticeably. Then, you can bet you'll want a new video card to support an PC games you play because if you try to play them at 4k, they are almost certainly going to be sluggish due to the super-high resolution textures, rendering, blitting, etc.. Even with a monster GPU, they still don't usually play at 60FPS... If you ask me, for gaming, FPS > resolution. I'm tired of the attitude that I'm just ignorant of how to properly configure my zillion OSs to work with 4k (or that it's even worth doing - such a hassle in many cases on older OSs). I'm not working with MacOS 10.x and using 2 built-in "i" applications here, folks. If someone else is, good for them, but I'm not stupid just because I don't agree and I eschew 4k for very good personal reasons. They'd understand after developing some real vision impairment. When you are just about legally blind, you appreciate that an app has *no choice* but to display in a manner that you can SEE. Not to mention that a large, low-res 4:3 or 1:1 LCD would be undoubtedly be useful to arcade restoration and retro computing efforts. If it was as silly as some people act like, then I doubt Samsung 210T units would still go for high prices on Ebay et al. I'd MUCH rather find a modern monitor with lots of brightness and good contrast that runs at a "low" 4:3 resolution (say 1280x1024 max). If it supported sync-on-green that'd be even better. The old Samsung 210T is about the closest thing to what I want, but it's nowhere near the specs of modern LED based displays for brightness and contrast. Some jerkhole sales guy in the Apple store got offended when I mentioned (privately & quietly to a friend that was with me) that I hated the new "retina" displays on their gear not only because of the squint (and yes, I know MacOS has pretty much the best hi-res support going), but also that the screens lacked an anti-glare coating (if they have any, it doesn't work worth a darn). The guy comes over, interrupts us and gives me some angry rant about how people like me need to "get over" anti-glare coatings because they "distort" 4k displays. I told him that I wasn't speaking to him and didn't need his help or input, but if I was I'd say something like " Who gives a **** about the resolution if you can't see it over the glare? " That's what I get for going into an Apple store in the first place, though. My bad. > You could buy one then return it? I think I probably could. I also think that if I had to use a scan converter it might be possible to use older systems with it. The problem is that the scan-converter would need to support 1920x1920 and sync-on-green. That's something that I doubt any of them would do, but who knows what the future holds. The fact that this monitor is new and was made at all gives me some hope. -Swift From ethan at 757.org Mon May 16 11:00:57 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Don't they just! I come across tons of folks wanting to replace their 4:3 > CRT with an LCD in arcade cabinets all the time. I wonder why, with all > the niche electronics in the world these days, some company hasn't made > panels with 640x480 display resolution at large sizes as replacements. I > guess the companies that make LCDs just aren't interested (yet). I have > noticed a few niche CRT makers trying to fill that gap. CRTs look better > than LCDs do in many cases because of the cheap anti-aliasing you get from > the phosphor and interlacing (just my opinion). However, LCDs offer some > nice advantages these days. Yea, for the classic arcades (70s, 80s, early 90s?) people tend to stick with CRTs but for the later computer based games people use scaler boards and LCDs. They shove widescreen LCDs in the cabinets and end up with this tiny picture in the middle where the large 29" monitor used to be. > Large panels would be a godsend for me, I have early onset macular > degeneration in my retinae. I get that folks think I'm crazy for not > buying a 4k panel and then jacking up the fonts. What those folks don't > seem to understand (at all) is that I've already tried it. Yes, Windows, > MacOS, and to some extent Linux have features to crank the fonts way up in > your windowing system and for most applications. There are plenty of widescreen lower resolution panels? 720p and 1080p televisions? > Some jerkhole sales guy in the Apple store got offended when I mentioned > (privately & quietly to a friend that was with me) that I hated the new > "retina" displays on their gear not only because of the squint (and yes, I > know MacOS has pretty much the best hi-res support going), but also that > the screens lacked an anti-glare coating (if they have any, it doesn't > work worth a darn). The guy comes over, interrupts us and gives me some > angry rant about how people like me need to "get over" anti-glare coatings > because they "distort" 4k displays. I told him that I wasn't speaking to > him and didn't need his help or input, but if I was I'd say something like > " Who gives a **** about the resolution if you can't see it over the > glare? " That's what I get for going into an Apple store in the first > place, though. My bad. I think my MacBook has anti glare coating on the retina screen, but I don't really use it outside. There are apps that let you directly set the resolution but that just gets you tiny text. > I think I probably could. I also think that if I had to use a scan > converter it might be possible to use older systems with it. The problem > is that the scan-converter would need to support 1920x1920 and > sync-on-green. That's something that I doubt any of them would do, but who > knows what the future holds. The fact that this monitor is new and was > made at all gives me some hope. I don't think a SGI would support that resolution? Or are you driving it with a PC? That resolution is definitely non-standard. - Ethan From scaron at diablonet.net Mon May 16 11:08:02 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 May 2016, Mike Ross wrote: > On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> On 14 May 2016 at 00:20, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>> Do not blame the computer companies, blame the customers. Beige and >>> gray were the colors they wanted. >> >> When companies buy, someone will have to approve (that is, provide the >> money). That's often the company's own beancounters.. Engineer: >> "We'll need this particular computer. This here model will do." >> Beancounter (looking in sales brochure): "Purple? We don't do that >> kind of thing here. This other model will do, surely" (points to beige >> version). > > Companies other than SGI did 'interesting' colors. Here's something > really obscure; bonus points to anyone who can identify it just from > the photo. No cheating! And treble points for anyone who HAS one. A > Prince's ransom if you have one for sale :-) - > > http://www.d1.dion.ne.jp/~r_high/memorial/panda/boxes.gif > Nobody bit and my curiousity is definitely piqued ... what are those things? Best, Sean From ed at groenenberg.net Mon May 16 11:13:32 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 18:13:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. In-Reply-To: <47507.10.10.10.2.1463293982.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <47507.10.10.10.2.1463293982.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <33520.10.10.10.2.1463415212.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> A little progress on the 11/34a I have a PMK05 (Unibus exerciser) of which I forgot I had it..... I checked it out first and noticed that the aluminum casting around the 4 slot backplane was broken on both sides. After repairing it by making 2 sleeves of thin copper sheet and a cobblers hammer it became strong enough to insert the cards again. After hooking up the PMK05 to the unibus, the machine was powered up with the memory card, and the 'NPG' led was on. When done without the memory card, the NPG led stayed off, and others came on. The address & data leds changed after depositing a character in the transmit buffer of the DL11-W. Pics at www.groenenberg.net/download/PDP11/pic for thos who want to see the PMK05 in action. (BTW, the unibus in and out are misprinted on the silkscreen and are reversed). BTW2, is there someone who has a manual for it? I only have 2 (xeroxed) pages of information. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 16 11:47:31 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:47:31 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-16, at 9:08 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > On Sat, 14 May 2016, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> Companies other than SGI did 'interesting' colors. Here's something >> really obscure; bonus points to anyone who can identify it just from >> the photo. No cheating! And treble points for anyone who HAS one. A >> Prince's ransom if you have one for sale :-) - >> >> http://www.d1.dion.ne.jp/~r_high/memorial/panda/boxes.gif >> > > Nobody bit and my curiousity is definitely piqued ... what are those things? http://www.studiofynn.com/design/computer-server-panda Found with some judicious googling. I guess that's cheating, so no prize for me. Seems to have been purely a design concept, not a product. It's mentioned a couple times under EXHIBITIONS, AWARDS AND PUBLICATIONS here: http://www.studiofynn.com/about From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 16 11:49:47 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 10:49:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Yea, for the classic arcades (70s, 80s, early 90s?) people tend to stick > with CRTs but for the later computer based games people use scaler > boards and LCDs. I'm right there with them. There really isn't anything that's LCD-based that's come along to replace them or emulate the look... yet. I'm still hopeful, though. > They shove widescreen LCDs in the cabinets and end up with this tiny > picture in the middle where the large 29" monitor used to be. I've seen some hacks with widescreen monitors and folks using scalers that can do 4:3 conversions. Some of them are clever and look okay, but most of them look trashy and amateurish, IMO. > There are plenty of widescreen lower resolution panels? 720p and 1080p > televisions? Indeed, and some of them are pretty nice. I have an NEC widescreen that's made for signage that works pretty well. However, it's still widescreen (bad for retro & arcade). Many TVs would work pretty well if it weren't for one thing: overscan. They are just about all setup by default to overscan so much that your first 3-10 lines of text in an Xterm will be cut off the top and bottom of the screen. The signage monitors sometimes deal with this correctly (my NEC does). However, the vast majority of TV screens of any kind setup for low-res will need some serious video adjustments to "fix" the overscan (which usually isn't worth it). Also, those video-based screens often really wreck the colorspace. Now, of course, if you use MacOS or Windows, there are fixes for these issues. However, those aren't my only two OSs by a long shot. > I think my MacBook has anti glare coating on the retina screen, but I > don't really use it outside. Be aware of the issues described here, if you aren't already: http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/anti-reflective-coating-wearing-off-macbook-pro-displays/ Hey, if my eyes were still 20/20 I'd probably be doing the same, though. > There are apps that let you directly set the resolution but that just > gets you tiny text. MacOS has the nifty "scaled" mode for hi-res displays. That helps an awful lot (but only for OSX). > I don't think a SGI would support that resolution? Or are you driving it > with a PC? That resolution is definitely non-standard. Agreed. I don't know of any that would support that resolution. It's very funky and it'd only work if it were scaled from a 4:3 mode which would also cause distortion. I'll probably pass on this one since it's just too much hassle for my needs. However, I'm still glad to see something different come along in terms of aspect ratios. I thought we'd already lost that war for mainstream displays. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 16 11:57:11 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 10:57:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: > http://www.studiofynn.com/design/computer-server-panda Found with some > judicious googling. I guess that's cheating, so no prize for me. I cheated and found it with Google Image Search but I kept quiet to let others run it down. > Seems to have been purely a design concept, not a product. They don't really talk about the guts, at all. Also by 1995 SGI had already made a lot of really cool machines, but hey others were free to join in! Honestly, I didn't say much because at first I thought they were coffee machines, espresso makers, or some other non-computer. Then when someone piped up with "Isn't that an early XYZ Frobniz-2000 with the acceleration module?" he'd spring it on them saying "GOTCHA! It's a coffee maker!" :-P -Swift From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 16 12:12:40 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 10:12:40 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5A867ADA-AC1A-4A0F-A22D-461C8CC8CB3C@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-16, at 9:57 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> http://www.studiofynn.com/design/computer-server-panda Found with some >> judicious googling. I guess that's cheating, so no prize for me. > > I cheated and found it with Google Image Search but I kept quiet to let > others run it down. > >> Seems to have been purely a design concept, not a product. > > They don't really talk about the guts, at all. Also by 1995 SGI had > already made a lot of really cool machines, but hey others were free to > join in! > > Honestly, I didn't say much because at first I thought they were coffee > machines, espresso makers, or some other non-computer. Then when someone > piped up with "Isn't that an early XYZ Frobniz-2000 with the acceleration > module?" he'd spring it on them saying "GOTCHA! It's a coffee maker!" :-P Seems it did get a little further than design concept. The "Archistrat" computer from "The Panda Project" of Boca Raton, Fl. Was getting a lot of press buzz around 1995. http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/37955/archistrat-computer http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1996-02-11/business/9602090578_1_panda-semiconductor-computer http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1994-11-25/business/9411220267_1_panda-project-crane-electronics-ibm http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19941112&slug=1941368 http://ftp.vim.org/documents/published/unix-world/archives/95/review/004.html https://www.pinterest.com/pin/250301691762333319/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 16 12:41:18 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 10:41:18 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <573A063E.80801@sydex.com> On 05/16/2016 09:47 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > http://www.studiofynn.com/design/computer-server-panda How do these differ in substance from the ASUS Vento (a real product from 2005) that I cited days ago? https://www.asus.com/websites/global/products/2zMfr955ALh3EoZJ/TA-36_three.gif --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon May 16 13:11:41 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 13:11:41 -0500 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > > In the 1980's and 1990's SGI was a bright shining exception and I love > them for that early middle finger to the beige box priesthood. Apple/NeXT > did a decent job, too. Once they became one and Jobs got his way, he seems > to have set about claiming a significant space in the then-wilderness of > PC industrial design. In the meantime, their stock went from @$30 a share > in 98' into the stratosphere, splitting a few times along the way. Guess > thinking about design wasn't such a bad idea. > While I think the SGIs were cool at the time, their industrial design, colors and all from the 90's look rather dated today. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 16 13:19:09 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 11:19:09 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <573A063E.80801@sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> <573A063E.80801@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2016-May-16, at 10:41 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/16/2016 09:47 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> http://www.studiofynn.com/design/computer-server-panda > > How do these differ in substance from the ASUS Vento (a real product > from 2005) that I cited days ago? > > https://www.asus.com/websites/global/products/2zMfr955ALh3EoZJ/TA-36_three.gif I'm not a proponent either way, but I guess the difference is the panda/archistrat was 10 years earlier and breaking the monoscape of the beige boxes, while the Vento was following a 7-year-old trend initiated by the iMac. From pete at petelancashire.com Mon May 16 11:51:03 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:51:03 -0700 Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A LCD panel manufacture will need an order for at least 25,000 and in most cases 100,000 units. That's just the LCD panel. 4:3 is getting to be the odd ball, and as time goes on unless there is a continuing industrial need your going to pay a lot. The only market today is HMI (Human Machine Interface) they max out at 15", the majority are 9" and 12". On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> Oh wow, the arcade world needs 4:3 27/29" and 25" LCDs pretty badly. > > Don't they just! I come across tons of folks wanting to replace their 4:3 > CRT with an LCD in arcade cabinets all the time. I wonder why, with all > the niche electronics in the world these days, some company hasn't made > panels with 640x480 display resolution at large sizes as replacements. I > guess the companies that make LCDs just aren't interested (yet). I have > noticed a few niche CRT makers trying to fill that gap. CRTs look better > than LCDs do in many cases because of the cheap anti-aliasing you get from > the phosphor and interlacing (just my opinion). However, LCDs offer some > nice advantages these days. > >> That's a bit on the pricy side, don't need that kind of resolution for >> games that run at 640x480 :-) > > Large panels would be a godsend for me, I have early onset macular > degeneration in my retinae. I get that folks think I'm crazy for not > buying a 4k panel and then jacking up the fonts. What those folks don't > seem to understand (at all) is that I've already tried it. Yes, Windows, > MacOS, and to some extent Linux have features to crank the fonts way up in > your windowing system and for most applications. > > However, FAR from what some people claim, those features are very > inconsistent. Apps often set font sizes which are immutable, > controls/icons (or anything bitmapped for that matter) still get shrunk > *way* down, and older systems don't support that type of thing at all (and > I use a lot of older systems via KVM switch). Using a 4k monitor also > sucks (hard) when using emulation packages like dosbox or UAE. They appear > in categorically *tiny* windows, and if you use a scaler for that > resolution it eats (just about any) CPU doing all the interpolation etc.. > and your emulation slows down noticeably. Then, you can bet you'll want a > new video card to support an PC games you play because if you try to play > them at 4k, they are almost certainly going to be sluggish due to the > super-high resolution textures, rendering, blitting, etc.. Even with a > monster GPU, they still don't usually play at 60FPS... If you ask me, for > gaming, FPS > resolution. > > I'm tired of the attitude that I'm just ignorant of how to properly > configure my zillion OSs to work with 4k (or that it's even worth doing - > such a hassle in many cases on older OSs). I'm not working with MacOS 10.x > and using 2 built-in "i" applications here, folks. If someone else is, > good for them, but I'm not stupid just because I don't agree and I eschew > 4k for very good personal reasons. They'd understand after developing some > real vision impairment. When you are just about legally blind, you > appreciate that an app has *no choice* but to display in a manner that you > can SEE. Not to mention that a large, low-res 4:3 or 1:1 LCD would be > undoubtedly be useful to arcade restoration and retro computing efforts. > If it was as silly as some people act like, then I doubt Samsung 210T > units would still go for high prices on Ebay et al. > > I'd MUCH rather find a modern monitor with lots of brightness and good > contrast that runs at a "low" 4:3 resolution (say 1280x1024 max). If it > supported sync-on-green that'd be even better. The old Samsung 210T is > about the closest thing to what I want, but it's nowhere near the specs of > modern LED based displays for brightness and contrast. > > Some jerkhole sales guy in the Apple store got offended when I mentioned > (privately & quietly to a friend that was with me) that I hated the new > "retina" displays on their gear not only because of the squint (and yes, I > know MacOS has pretty much the best hi-res support going), but also that > the screens lacked an anti-glare coating (if they have any, it doesn't > work worth a darn). The guy comes over, interrupts us and gives me some > angry rant about how people like me need to "get over" anti-glare coatings > because they "distort" 4k displays. I told him that I wasn't speaking to > him and didn't need his help or input, but if I was I'd say something like > " Who gives a **** about the resolution if you can't see it over the > glare? " That's what I get for going into an Apple store in the first > place, though. My bad. > >> You could buy one then return it? > > I think I probably could. I also think that if I had to use a scan > converter it might be possible to use older systems with it. The problem > is that the scan-converter would need to support 1920x1920 and > sync-on-green. That's something that I doubt any of them would do, but who > knows what the future holds. The fact that this monitor is new and was > made at all gives me some hope. > > -Swift > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 16 13:49:00 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 14:49:00 -0400 Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > 4:3 is getting to be the odd ball, and as time goes on unless there is > a continuing industrial need > your going to pay a lot. The only market today is HMI (Human Machine > Interface) they > max out at 15", the majority are 9" and 12". I have been keeping my eye out for older panels. I have some 12" 4:3 and a few 17" 4:3 and I think one 19" 4:3. Never run across anything larger. I don't think there were too many 4:3 LCD televisions sold larger than 19"... some, perhaps, but not many. The world switched to 16:9 about the time prices started falling on > 19" panels. I have a couple of arcade cabinets I'd love to switch to LCD. No luck yet except with a 16:9 that would fill the cabinet space but give me a black bars and a smaller playfield size than the CRT. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 16 13:56:43 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 11:56:43 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> <573A063E.80801@sydex.com> Message-ID: <573A17EB.6070909@sydex.com> On 05/16/2016 11:19 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I'm not a proponent either way, but I guess the difference is the > panda/archistrat was 10 years earlier and breaking the monoscape of > the beige boxes, while the Vento was following a 7-year-old trend > initiated by the iMac. It wasn't for want of trying. Back in 1980, the company I worked for investigated making a lower-priced system for more economical customers. Expandability would be limited, but we had to use existing parts. What was proposed was to paint (the shells were all structural foam, so even the "regular" stuff was painted) some triel systems various bright colors, including red, orange, green and blue. These were turned over to marketing for customer reactions. The dogs wouldn't eat it. Same box as the beige and brown ones, just a different color. No one surveyed displayed any interest at all. Some actually hated the things. That probably explains IBM's abandonment of custom colors for their mainframes. Don't blame the manufacturers. I note that no one ever proposed a bright yellow case. Some made a point of the lack of color. Witness the Rair "Black Box". --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 16 14:04:58 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:04:58 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <57397E7E.6000604@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> <7d67f0e2-f59f-18af-4e0d-38e5c34ca98c@bitsavers.org> <57391717.5020905@gmail.com> <57393C1C.7040307@gmail.com> <57397E7E.6000604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/16/16 1:02 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I disassembled the RC2030 to get at the motherboard and spent some time probing. If you get a chance, an couple of MB pictures would be nice. I just to pics and dumped the proms from my RC3230. uploaded to pdf/mips/M20 What pins does the AT keyboard use on your DIN-8? From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 16 14:07:19 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:07:19 -0700 Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <573A1A67.5000905@sydex.com> On 05/16/2016 11:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have been keeping my eye out for older panels. I have some 12" > 4:3 and a few 17" 4:3 and I think one 19" 4:3. Never run across > anything larger. I don't think there were too many 4:3 LCD > televisions sold larger than 19"... some, perhaps, but not many. The > world switched to 16:9 about the time prices started falling on > 19" > panels. > > I have a couple of arcade cabinets I'd love to switch to LCD. No > luck yet except with a 16:9 that would fill the cabinet space but > give me a black bars and a smaller playfield size than the CRT. I use a NEC 21.3" 4:3 monitor--they can be had for cheap. NEC sells a few refurb very inexpensive 4:3 19" monitors that accept SOG: http://www.necdisplay.com/category/desktop-monitors?Refurbished=1 --Chuck From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon May 16 14:13:51 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:13:51 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 Message-ID: I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the Dell 2007FP- There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar scalers. They sync to SoG, and have no trouble with oddball resolutions like 1152x8-whatever. My SGI stuff can drive it at native resolution. As an added bonus, you can disable scaling if you want black bars and native resolution. These are readily available for ~$35, and I have at least 6. - Ian On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/16/2016 11:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I have been keeping my eye out for older panels. I have some 12" > > 4:3 and a few 17" 4:3 and I think one 19" 4:3. Never run across > > anything larger. I don't think there were too many 4:3 LCD > > televisions sold larger than 19"... some, perhaps, but not many. The > > world switched to 16:9 about the time prices started falling on > 19" > > panels. > > > > I have a couple of arcade cabinets I'd love to switch to LCD. No > > luck yet except with a 16:9 that would fill the cabinet space but > > give me a black bars and a smaller playfield size than the CRT. > > > I use a NEC 21.3" 4:3 monitor--they can be had for cheap. > > NEC sells a few refurb very inexpensive 4:3 19" monitors that accept SOG: > > http://www.necdisplay.com/category/desktop-monitors?Refurbished=1 > > --Chuck > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 16 14:28:10 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 15:28:10 -0400 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > Dell 2007FP- > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. Excellent recommendation. I'll be keeping a lookout for them. Thanks! -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 16 14:54:30 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have a couple of arcade cabinets I'd love to switch to LCD. No luck > yet except with a 16:9 that would fill the cabinet space but give me a > black bars and a smaller playfield size than the CRT. > Would rotating the panel to a portrait orientation help? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 16 15:03:14 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 16:03:14 -0400 Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:54 PM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I have a couple of arcade cabinets I'd love to switch to LCD. No luck >> yet except with a 16:9 that would fill the cabinet space but give me a >> black bars and a smaller playfield size than the CRT. >> > Would rotating the panel to a portrait orientation help? Not for Xenophobe. It has a 4:3 CRT that mostly fills the upper cavity. A portrait-mode LCD would be far worse than a landscape-mode LCD. -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon May 16 15:20:44 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 13:20:44 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 16, 2016 12:13 PM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > Dell 2007FP- > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > Will those sync with an Agilent 16700 at 1600x1200 at 75Hz? I've only found one LCD display so far that will. From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon May 16 16:10:45 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 14:10:45 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glen asks: >> Will those sync with an Agilent 16700 at 1600x1200 at 75Hz? >> I've only found one LCD display so far that will. I don't think I have the extended VRAM option in my Agilent to verify this, but I'll double check. I would assume they will take it, they're extremely well behaved and I think I have gotten it to do 1600x1200x75 via an Indigo2(?). Great quality analog handling on the VGA input. The only thing I suspect that they don't like (but have not tried) is 15khz via the VGA input- easily fixed by using a scandoubler (or composite / S-video). I've encountered nothing that hasn't worked on the 2007FP, but *has* worked on another model LCD. Glen: You are welcome to borrow one and give it a go whenever we hack on the CDU PALs. .... I'll also note another much sillier reason I like the 2007FP beyond superb scaling quality, sync flexibility and overall image / panel quality: The industrial design is minimal, angular, VESA-mountable, and inoffensive. It fits well with decidedly retro surroundings- no giant bezel, loud curves, or weird chassis colors to distract the eye; it fades into the background nicely, which helps the experience and suspension of reality, if that's something you're into. (Late night retro-sessions FTW) They seem to be quite common right now as they're of the magic age where offices have started to upgrade them to bigger, wider LCDs. I'm sure that won't last so I'm hoarding them when they pop up at the ecycle, etc. - Ian Appendix: a non-inclusive list of shit I've tested- RGB / VGA in: > Amiga 3000 w/internal scandoubler > Apple Quadra 700-950, IIci, IIsi internal video > Indigo2 at 1600x1200 native (gorgeous) > Radius ThunderGX 1600 NuBus graphics at native (also awesome) > Amiga PicassoII, GVP Spectrum, and Macro Retina Z3 24bit RTGs - 800x600 looks superb > Radius 24XK NuBus graphics > SGI Onyx @ native (should be disqualified because it'll sync to a piece of toast with the right format) > Indigo ELAN > Misc. color sun stuff (3/80, sparc) > Apollo DN3000 color > HP / Apollo 425 color > SGI O2 > SGI Octane V6 with custom VFO @ native > SGI Personal IRIS > etc... Have also used the composite input with: > Sperctrum QL > C64 > Video toaster > Nintendo 64 On Monday, May 16, 2016, Glen Slick wrote: > On May 16, 2016 12:13 PM, "Ian Finder" > wrote: > > > > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > > Dell 2007FP- > > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > > > Will those sync with an Agilent 16700 at 1600x1200 at 75Hz? I've only found > one LCD display so far that will. > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 16 16:34:44 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 22:34:44 +0100 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > Dell 2007FP- > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar scalers. > > They sync to SoG, and have no trouble with oddball resolutions like > 1152x8-whatever. *makes notes* Thanks for that, I'll keep an eye out for one! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 16 16:51:25 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 21:51:25 +0000 Subject: DEC L2001 processor needed for stupid endeavor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 16, 2016, at 3:49 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I'm still looking for > something "useful" to do with 10 processors on VMS; it's a shame there was > never a distributed.net client for VAX VMS :). http://stats.distributed.net/misc/platformlist.php?project_id=205&view=tco There was, albeit on an older project. And there is an Alpha/VMS client even now, as well as VAX/NetBSD, for one of the current (RC5-72) projects. How hard could it be to port? :-) I pledge to get my VAX (VLC) running VMS and contributing if a client appears. - Mark From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 16 16:52:48 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 22:52:48 +0100 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > Dell 2007FP- > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar scalers. In fact there was one available for ukp35 so it's now mine. I remember these monitors from a few years ago at a customer that specialised in video for aeroplanes, I used one not quite daily but remember being irked at the time that it was several button presses needed to get from VGA to DVI input, hahaha. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 16 17:25:28 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 23:25:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 16 May 2016 at 22:52 Adrian Graham > wrote: > > > On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > > Dell 2007FP- > > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar > > scalers. > > In fact there was one available for ukp35 so it's now mine. I remember > these > monitors from a few years ago at a customer that specialised in video for > aeroplanes, I used one not quite daily but remember being irked at the > time > that it was several button presses needed to get from VGA to DVI input, > hahaha. > He had another one at that price (the last one apparently), so I have bagged that one. I tried my Viewsonic, which does SoG, on my Rainbow at the weekend, but that didn't work, perhaps this will. Even if it doesn't it will still be a good second monitor for my everyday PC. Regards Rob From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 16 17:43:13 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 16:43:13 -0600 (MDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: <573A1A67.5000905@sydex.com> References: <573A1A67.5000905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I use a NEC 21.3" 4:3 monitor--they can be had for cheap. NEC sells a > few refurb very inexpensive 4:3 19" monitors that accept SOG: Yep. I have a 19" NEC now. I've also had a 21" Samsung 210T in the past. They work with SoG as well. There is also a medical monitor they still sell new that's 21". -Swift From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon May 16 17:46:04 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 15:46:04 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: This post: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-16744.html Seems to indicate that the Rainbow is a 15khz sync signal, more akin to normal interlaced video- which I called out in my other post as being the one type of signal that doesn't always work for these displays. You may find success using a GBS-8220 scan-doubler, (ebay, c. $28 USD), perhaps with a sync-strainer circuit to feed the SoG signal to the Scan Doubler as composite sync, if it doesn't work directly with the 2007FP. Curious to hear what you figure out. On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Jarratt RMA wrote: > > > > > On 16 May 2016 at 22:52 Adrian Graham > > wrote: > > > > > > On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > > > > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff > is the > > > Dell 2007FP- > > > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > > > > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > > > > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar > > > scalers. > > > > In fact there was one available for ukp35 so it's now mine. I > remember > > these > > monitors from a few years ago at a customer that specialised in > video for > > aeroplanes, I used one not quite daily but remember being irked at > the > > time > > that it was several button presses needed to get from VGA to DVI > input, > > hahaha. > > > > > He had another one at that price (the last one apparently), so I have > bagged > that one. I tried my Viewsonic, which does SoG, on my Rainbow at the > weekend, > but that didn't work, perhaps this will. Even if it doesn't it will still > be a > good second monitor for my everyday PC. > > Regards > > Rob > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon May 16 17:48:03 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 15:48:03 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: Addendum- This thread (http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=44692) seems to indicate the 2007FP CAN do 15hkz on the VGA / RGB input... so maybe you're all good. Anyone here want to test? On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > This post: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-16744.html > Seems to indicate that the Rainbow is a 15khz sync signal, more akin to > normal interlaced video- which I called out in my other post as being the > one type of signal that doesn't always work for these displays. > > You may find success using a GBS-8220 scan-doubler, (ebay, c. $28 > USD), perhaps with a sync-strainer circuit to feed the SoG signal to the > Scan Doubler as composite sync, if it doesn't work directly with the 2007FP. > > Curious to hear what you figure out. > > > > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Jarratt RMA > wrote: > >> >> > >> > On 16 May 2016 at 22:52 Adrian Graham > > >> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: >> > >> > > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff >> is the >> > > Dell 2007FP- >> > > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. >> > > >> > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. >> > > >> > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar >> > > scalers. >> > >> > In fact there was one available for ukp35 so it's now mine. I >> remember >> > these >> > monitors from a few years ago at a customer that specialised in >> video for >> > aeroplanes, I used one not quite daily but remember being irked at >> the >> > time >> > that it was several button presses needed to get from VGA to DVI >> input, >> > hahaha. >> > >> >> >> He had another one at that price (the last one apparently), so I have >> bagged >> that one. I tried my Viewsonic, which does SoG, on my Rainbow at the >> weekend, >> but that didn't work, perhaps this will. Even if it doesn't it will still >> be a >> good second monitor for my everyday PC. >> >> Regards >> >> Rob >> > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon May 16 18:17:50 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 18:17:50 -0500 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <573A551E.8090105@gmail.com> On 05/16/2016 02:13 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > Dell 2007FP- > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar scalers. > > They sync to SoG, and have no trouble with oddball resolutions like > 1152x8-whatever. Any idea if they support arcade-type frequencies and inputs (i.e. TV rates and composite sync with separate analog RGB inputs)? I'm keeping an eye out for something that will work properly with an old Jamma board that I have (I currently have it hooked up via a mess of resistors to an old green-screen mono display sitting on its side :-) cheers Jules From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon May 16 18:35:14 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 16:35:14 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: <573A551E.8090105@gmail.com> References: <573A551E.8090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: See prior references in the thread to 15khz input for "Arcade frequencies". I have not tested it, some reports appear to indicate that it works. On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 05/16/2016 02:13 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > >> I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the >> Dell 2007FP- >> There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. >> >> They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. >> >> They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar >> scalers. >> >> They sync to SoG, and have no trouble with oddball resolutions like >> 1152x8-whatever. >> > > Any idea if they support arcade-type frequencies and inputs (i.e. TV rates > and composite sync with separate analog RGB inputs)? > > I'm keeping an eye out for something that will work properly with an old > Jamma board that I have (I currently have it hooked up via a mess of > resistors to an old green-screen mono display sitting on its side :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 16 20:25:42 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 18:25:42 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <573A7316.2030305@sydex.com> Anyone remember the multicolored "Orb" computers of the late 70s? I'm sure there were others. --Chuck From pye at mactec.com.au Mon May 16 21:05:33 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 12:05:33 +1000 Subject: HP 9810A and 9820A for sale Brisbane Australia Message-ID: I am clearing out stuff that I will probably never get around to restoring. All complete and in good cosmetic condition except as noted. Assume that they all need repairs. HP 9810A with options 001, 003, 004 and Mathematics and Printer Alpha ROMs - small chunk broken off corner of front top cover HP 9820A with option 001 and Mathematics ROM Another HP 9820A with option 001 - very small chip broken off corner of front top cover I also have a spare card cage with backplane and four boards. Open to offers.. Local pickup only, from Brisbane Australia. Chris From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Mon May 16 21:59:51 2016 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 02:59:51 +0000 Subject: PowerBook Duo 280c Disk Tools Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF37125@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Does anyone on here do much with old Apple gear? Anyone have a PowerBook Duo 280 or 280c? I'm looking for a Disk Tools disk image for System 7.1.1 for my 280c. Seems the Disk Tools disks were pretty heavily customized to squeeze everything required onto a single 1.44MB floppy. There are few images of Disk Tools disks for several different Mac families floating around the web, but I can't seem to find one for the Duo 280c. Any help is much appreciated!! Thanks in advance! -Ben From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon May 16 22:52:02 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 20:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PowerBook Duo 280c Disk Tools In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF37125@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF37125@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: Side note- I do not have what you're looking for BUT I do have 4 or 5 280cs and the metal can capacitors on the DC/DC board area (helpfully, just *out of view* when you lift the keyboard) are leaking. I promise ;) You'll wanna clean up the damage and recap ASAP... Sent from Outlook for iPhone ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Benjamin Huntsman Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 2:59:51 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: PowerBook Duo 280c Disk Tools Does anyone on here do much with old Apple gear? Anyone have a PowerBook Duo 280 or 280c? I'm looking for a Disk Tools disk image for System 7.1.1 for my 280c. Seems the Disk Tools disks were pretty heavily customized to squeeze everything required onto a single 1.44MB floppy. There are few images of Disk Tools disks for several different Mac families floating around the web, but I can't seem to find one for the Duo 280c. Any help is much appreciated!! Thanks in advance! -Ben From pete at petelancashire.com Mon May 16 16:37:14 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 14:37:14 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glen .. good question, I'd like a larger display for my 16700 ! -pete On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On May 16, 2016 12:13 PM, "Ian Finder" wrote: >> >> I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the >> Dell 2007FP- >> There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. >> >> They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. >> > > Will those sync with an Agilent 16700 at 1600x1200 at 75Hz? I've only found > one LCD display so far that will. > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue May 17 00:43:19 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 02:43:19 -0300 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a very simple (and portable) monitor tester with 31 and 15 KHz frequencies http://www.victortrucco.com/Diversos/TicTacBlue/TicTacBlue We use it here in Brazil to look for LCD monitors who sync to 15KHz. 2016-05-16 18:37 GMT-03:00 Pete Lancashire : > Glen .. good question, I'd like a larger display for my 16700 ! > > -pete > > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > On May 16, 2016 12:13 PM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > >> > >> I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > >> Dell 2007FP- > >> There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > >> > >> They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > >> > > > > Will those sync with an Agilent 16700 at 1600x1200 at 75Hz? I've only > found > > one LCD display so far that will. > > > From mattislind at gmail.com Tue May 17 01:11:30 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 08:11:30 +0200 Subject: T400 Transputer for sale @ebay.de Message-ID: Once in the day I thought Inmos and their transputer family was quite interesting. I had an idea of doing som sort of project. But of course there were no real time to be found to do anything (not sure if this has changed today). While browsing for something else I found someone at Ebay in Germany selling T400 in 68 pin PLCC. http://www.ebay.de/itm/131355196522 Are there tools (Occam etc) around to do anything with these today? /Mattis From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue May 17 01:16:18 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 06:16:18 +0000 Subject: Analog Computers (Was Re: [Sbms] MW stuff for Sale) In-Reply-To: <6fbc43.47d1000b.446c0803@aol.com> References: <6fbc43.47d1000b.446c0803@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Cory, For the past several months, from abebooks I have been collecting every analog computer book I could find. I have: Basics of Analog Computers, T. D. Truit and A. E. Rogers High Speed Analog Computers, Rajkio Tomovic and Walter Karplus Electronic Analog Computer Primer, James E Stice and Bernet S. Swanson Introduction to Analog Computer Programming, Dale I. Rummer Analog Computation, Albert S. Jackson Electronic Analog Computers, Granino A. Korn, Theresa M. Korn Analog and digital Computer Methods in Engineering Analysis, James Smith, M. L. James, J. C. Wolford >From scouring the web, I picked up several PDFs: Heathkit EC-1 operation manual Basic Analog Computer techniques, Stewart and Atkinson Construction article Practical Electronics 1978 The History of Analog Computing, Kent Lundberg I am planning to build a machine. I have purchase 20 or so Analog Devices multipliers, and have the rest of the stuff already here and coming together. I will probably do this in the form of an analog synth, Eurorack style modules, but welcome your ideas. I have all the schematic capture and PCB tools to apply to this effort also. I welcome some collaboration on this, and I have free for shipping High Speed Analog computers and Analog Electronic Computer Primer for the first volunteer, as in my haste I bought duplicates of these two books. Randy Dawson KF7CJW ________________________________________ From: COURYHOUSE--- via Sbms Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 10:37 PM To: glenn.d at ca.rr.com; sbms at ham-radio.com Cc: 50mhzandup at lists.altadena.net; sccc at contesting.com Subject: Re: [Sbms] MW stuff for Sale noticed the syston donner gear... I am looking for a syston donner analog computer and parts and books... drop me a line off list if anyone has one. thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 5/16/2016 6:37:11 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, glenn.d at ca.rr.com writes: Everything is in good working order I just have not had time to use this test gear with work and family commitments. HP 8620A Sweep Oscillator 2 to 16ghz. I used it mostly as a frequency source for tuning 5 and 10 ghz filters. It does not have all the plastic inserts for the frequency display. I used a counter as the slide rule type display was not that good. $250 I have a second HP 8620 with all the display inserts and an extra module for below 2 GHz $350 Systron Donner Model 751 Spectrum Analyzer $300 useable to 10GHz PCom 24GHz dish, about 24 inches, This is one the "LandMine Module" snapped onto the back. $50. I will be on 10 and 24 for the summer contests. Dave N6TEB DM03ww (Downey) N6teb at arrl.net _______________________________________________ Sbms mailing list Sbms at lists.altadena.net https://lists.altadena.net/mailman/listinfo/sbms _______________________________________________ Sbms mailing list Sbms at lists.altadena.net https://lists.altadena.net/mailman/listinfo/sbms From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 17 01:31:16 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 07:31:16 +0100 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5"LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: I?ll let you know in a few days when I get back home. Regards Rob Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Ian Finder Sent: 16 May 2016 23:48 To: Jarratt RMA; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5"LCD monitor 1920x1920 Addendum- This thread ?(http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=44692) ?seems to indicate the 2007FP CAN do 15hkz on the VGA / RGB input... so maybe you're all good. Anyone here want to test? On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Ian Finder wrote: This post: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-16744.html Seems to indicate that the Rainbow is a 15khz sync?signal, more akin to normal interlaced video- which I called out in my other post as being?the one?type of signal that?doesn't always work?for these displays. You may find success using a GBS-8220 scan-doubler, (ebay, c.?$28 USD),?perhaps with a sync-strainer circuit to feed the SoG signal to the Scan Doubler as composite sync, if it doesn't work directly with the 2007FP. Curious to hear what you figure out. On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Jarratt RMA wrote: > >? ? ?On 16 May 2016 at 22:52 Adrian Graham > wrote: > > >? ? ?On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > >? ? ?> I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the >? ? ?> Dell 2007FP- >? ? ?> There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. >? ? ?> >? ? ?> They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. >? ? ?> >? ? ?> They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar >? ? ?> scalers. > >? ? ?In fact there was one available for ukp35 so it's now mine. I remember > these >? ? ?monitors from a few years ago at a customer that specialised in video for >? ? ?aeroplanes, I used one not quite daily but remember being irked at the > time >? ? ?that it was several button presses needed to get from VGA to DVI input, >? ? ?hahaha. > He had another one at that price (the last one apparently), so I have bagged that one. I tried my Viewsonic, which does SoG, on my Rainbow at the weekend, but that didn't work, perhaps this will. Even if it doesn't it will still be a good second monitor for my everyday PC. Regards Rob -- ?? Ian Finder ?? (206) 395-MIPS ?? ian.finder at gmail.com -- ?? Ian Finder ?? (206) 395-MIPS ?? ian.finder at gmail.com From austinpass at gmail.com Tue May 17 01:52:55 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 07:52:55 +0100 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: > On 16 May 2016, at 23:25, Jarratt RMA wrote: > > >> >> On 16 May 2016 at 22:52 Adrian Graham >> wrote: >> >> >>> On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: >>> >>> I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the >>> Dell 2007FP- >>> There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. >>> >>> They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. >>> >>> They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar >>> scalers. >> >> In fact there was one available for ukp35 so it's now mine. I remember >> these >> monitors from a few years ago at a customer that specialised in video for >> aeroplanes, I used one not quite daily but remember being irked at the >> time >> that it was several button presses needed to get from VGA to DVI input, >> hahaha. > > > He had another one at that price (the last one apparently), so I have bagged > that one. I tried my Viewsonic, which does SoG, on my Rainbow at the weekend, > but that didn't work, perhaps this will. Even if it doesn't it will still be a > good second monitor for my everyday PC. > > Regards > > Rob And seemingly another 8 have appeared at this price, so I've snagged one too! ?15 p&p seems a little rich but a 4:3 TFT that does SoG and 15Khz scan for ?50 strikes me as an absolute bargain overall. Smart looking monitor too IMO. Will look well with the Crimson! -Austin. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue May 17 03:44:07 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 10:44:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: First I want to note that everybody is missing the subject about *square 1:1* displays... On Mon, 16 May 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have been keeping my eye out for older panels. I have some 12" 4:3 > and a few 17" 4:3 and I think one 19" 4:3. Never run across anything > larger. I don't think there were too many 4:3 LCD televisions sold > larger than 19"... some, perhaps, but not many. The world switched to > 16:9 about the time prices started falling on > 19" panels. We have/had tons of 4:3 20" monitors (mainly Philips and HP). I will have to junk them because they have been replaced by newer ones and I really don't collect modern LCD monitors. > I have a couple of arcade cabinets I'd love to switch to LCD. No luck > yet except with a 16:9 that would fill the cabinet space but give me a > black bars and a smaller playfield size than the CRT. Why? Can't you ignore (i.e. hide) the left and right margins? Christian From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue May 17 04:28:51 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 10:28:51 +0100 Subject: LK401 Keyboard Message-ID: <87wpmtuj70.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> Hi all, Bought a VT420 off eBay last night which should be arriving sometime this week. Unfortunately it doesn't come with a keyboard. Is there anyone near Nottingham (UK) willing to sell an DEC LK401 keyboard for a fair price? Thanks, Aaron From Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de Tue May 17 04:58:32 2016 From: Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de (Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 11:58:32 +0200 Subject: HP41C Peripherals and Accessories? Message-ID: <003301d1b022$ab9f1040$02dd30c0$@MH-AeroTools.de> Mark, corrosion problems are very common on the HP-41. To discuss the HP-41 calculator, repairs, accessories most of the community knowledge may be found in the discussion forums at http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-6266.html and more documentation also at http://www.hp41.org/Intro.cfm Have fun and many happy BEEPs Martin > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 22:34:48 -0700 > From: "Mark J. Blair" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: HP41C Peripherals and Accessories? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I just became the happy new owner of a nice old HP 41C calculator with a > matching barcode wand. I haven't powered it up yet, as there's lots of battery > compartment corrosion. I'm looking into getting one of the replacement flex > circuit assemblies that have been made for it. I was quite curious about the 41C > when I saw them in magazines, but I had never touched one before. My first HP > calculator was a 28S, and I finally upgraded to a 48GX a couple of years ago. I > think this 41C will be a fun addition to my collection once I get the battery > compartment fixed up and get it running. > > If anybody has any interesting HP 41C peripherals or accessories available for > trade, let's talk! eBay and I don't talk any more, so I need to find my new toys > the old fashioned way. > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 17 06:24:53 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 12:24:53 +0100 Subject: LK401 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <87wpmtuj70.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <87wpmtuj70.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: If it's Harrison Lights he has keyboards priced so he gets what he thinks a VT420 is worth... :-( On 17 May 2016 10:28, "Aaron Jackson" wrote: > Hi all, > > Bought a VT420 off eBay last night which should be arriving sometime > this week. Unfortunately it doesn't come with a keyboard. Is there > anyone near Nottingham (UK) willing to sell an DEC LK401 keyboard for a > fair price? > > Thanks, > > Aaron > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue May 17 06:35:55 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 12:35:55 +0100 Subject: LK401 Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <87wpmtuj70.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: <87k2issyqs.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> Hi Dave, Yes it was Harrison Lighting. I'm hoping there will be a spare compatible keyboard lying around in my department. I don't think ?50 was a bad price for a VT420, but it would have been much better if it included the keyboard. Aaron Dave Wade writes: > If it's Harrison Lights he has keyboards priced so he gets what he thinks a > VT420 is worth... :-( > On 17 May 2016 10:28, "Aaron Jackson" wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> Bought a VT420 off eBay last night which should be arriving sometime >> this week. Unfortunately it doesn't come with a keyboard. Is there >> anyone near Nottingham (UK) willing to sell an DEC LK401 keyboard for a >> fair price? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Aaron >> From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue May 17 07:03:35 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 07:03:35 -0500 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: <573A551E.8090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <573B0897.1040709@gmail.com> On 05/16/2016 06:35 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > See prior references in the thread to 15khz input for "Arcade frequencies". > I have not tested it, some reports appear to indicate that it works. Thanks... I'll prod my local recycler I think and let him know that I'm on the look out for Dell displays, maybe he'll just happen to have one of the right kind come in. it would be the sync signal that I'd be concerned about, I know I've found screens before which will handle the ~ 15KHz rate OK, but they still expect separate H/V sync lines rather than composite (and splitting syncs seems to be a bit more involved than combining them - well, trivial with the right IC, but I mean using parts that might just happen to be kicking around in my electronics stash :-) J. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 07:24:47 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 12:24:47 +0000 Subject: HP 9810A and 9820A for sale Brisbane Australia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > All complete and in good cosmetic condition except as noted. > Assume that they all need repairs. These are interesting bit-serial 'calculators' built from TTL (mostly). I have put 'calculators' in quotes because the internal architecture is that of a computer -- a processor that runs programs from ROM or RAM. The HP9810 is a 3-register sort-of RPN machine, similar (at the user level) to the HP9100. It has a 3-line LED display. The HP9820 uses normal infix notation and has a 16 character alphanumeric display. Be warned that repairing them is 'fun'. A logic analyser is IMHO essential. I am happy to talk about any aspects of these machines apart from the later (2102-based) RAM in the HP9820, which IIRC is what Opt 001 was. I have never seen this. > HP 9810A with options 001, 003, 004 and Mathematics and Printer Alpha ROMs > - small chunk broken off corner of front top cover I assume 'front top cover' is the plastic bezel around the keyboard/display window. This goes very brittle with age and it is rare to find one that is perfect. And if you do, it will probably get damaged if you work on the machine... > HP 9820A with option 001 and Mathematics ROM > > Another HP 9820A with option 001 - very small chip broken off corner of front > top cover > > I also have a spare card cage with backplane and four boards. The separate cardcage in these machines is the memory unit. I wonder if this is the original memory unit (RAM and control boards) from a 9820 that was upgraded to Opt 001. From what I remember that upgrade was a replacement memory box, controller boards and RAM boards, but you moved the ROM boards from the original memory unit. > Open to offers.. Local pickup only, from Brisbane Australia. Pity you are on the other side of the world.... (and anyway I have a 9810 and 9820) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 07:27:37 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 12:27:37 +0000 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net>, Message-ID: > This post: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-16744.html > Seems to indicate that the Rainbow is a 15khz sync signal, more akin to The Rainbow outputs a normal RS170-like composite video signal with the same timings (so 15-odd kHz horizontal, 60Hz vertical). There is a setup option for 50Hz vertical I think, if so it's going to be close to European analogue TV rates. This composite signal is the monochrome output. If you have a colour video board, it is used as the green signal (which is thus SoG) and there are separate red and blue signals. Obviously all at the same rate. -tony From davidk.collins at bigpond.com Tue May 17 07:40:52 2016 From: davidk.collins at bigpond.com (David Collins) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 22:40:52 +1000 Subject: HP 9810A and 9820A for sale Brisbane Australia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004001d1b039$5b1e9390$115bbab0$@bigpond.com> Chris, if there are no takers, the HP Computer Museum in Melbourne would probably be interested. Let me know... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Pye Sent: Tuesday, 17 May 2016 12:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: HP 9810A and 9820A for sale Brisbane Australia I am clearing out stuff that I will probably never get around to restoring. All complete and in good cosmetic condition except as noted. Assume that they all need repairs. HP 9810A with options 001, 003, 004 and Mathematics and Printer Alpha ROMs - small chunk broken off corner of front top cover HP 9820A with option 001 and Mathematics ROM Another HP 9820A with option 001 - very small chip broken off corner of front top cover I also have a spare card cage with backplane and four boards. Open to offers.. Local pickup only, from Brisbane Australia. Chris From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue May 17 07:02:54 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 08:02:54 -0400 Subject: LK401 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <87k2issyqs.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <87wpmtuj70.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> <87k2issyqs.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: <573B086E.8010604@compsys.to> >Aaron Jackson wrote: >Hi Dave, > >Yes it was Harrison Lighting. I'm hoping there will be a spare >compatible keyboard lying around in my department. I don't think ?50 was >a bad price for a VT420, but it would have been much better if it >included the keyboard. > > >>Dave Wade writes: > >>If it's Harrison Lights he has keyboards priced so he gets what he thinks a >>VT420 is worth... :-( >>On 17 May 2016 10:28, "Aaron Jackson" wrote: >> >>>Hi all, >>> >>>Bought a VT420 off eBay last night which should be arriving sometime >>>this week. Unfortunately it doesn't come with a keyboard. Is there >>>anyone near Nottingham (UK) willing to sell an DEC LK401 keyboard for a >>>fair price? >>> If I remember correctly, the LK201 from a VT220 or a VT320 will also work correctly on a VT420. Can anyone else confirm this? That make help you to locate a keyboard that can be used with a VT420. For example, the keyboard for a VT100 is completely incompatible with both the VT220 and VT420. Jerome Fine From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue May 17 08:56:42 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 09:56:42 -0400 Subject: T400 Transputer for sale @ebay.de In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8bdd4716-e571-e384-00e6-e780d40d4b7e@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-17 2:11 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Once in the day I thought Inmos and their transputer family was quite > interesting. I had an idea of doing som sort of project. But of course > there were no real time to be found to do anything (not sure if this has > changed today). > > While browsing for something else I found someone at Ebay in Germany > selling T400 in 68 pin PLCC. > > http://www.ebay.de/itm/131355196522 They do come up from time to time. A lot of 38 T800s(?) was sold recently. > > Are there tools (Occam etc) around to do anything with these today? Yes, quite a few are archived on Ram's site: http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/ I've also long been interested in a Transputer SBC project, having used them back in the late 1980s. While the Transputer requires very little supporting circuitry you might want to pick up a C011 (I'm not an expert and haven't built an SBC - this was advice from Dave McGuire). --Toby > > /Mattis > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue May 17 09:02:47 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 15:02:47 +0100 Subject: LK401 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <573B086E.8010604@compsys.to> References: <87wpmtuj70.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> <87k2issyqs.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> <573B086E.8010604@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 17 May 2016 at 13:02, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > If I remember correctly, the LK201 from a VT220 or a VT320 will also > work correctly on a VT420. Can anyone else confirm this? > I have an Integrity RX2660 in the workshop with a VT420 and LK201 keyboard, so yes it's fine. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue May 17 09:02:15 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 07:02:15 -0700 Subject: HP41C Peripherals and Accessories? In-Reply-To: <003301d1b022$ab9f1040$02dd30c0$@MH-AeroTools.de> References: <003301d1b022$ab9f1040$02dd30c0$@MH-AeroTools.de> Message-ID: <4365DEF2-01BE-4EE9-985D-C14FD44684A5@nf6x.net> > On May 17, 2016, at 02:58, Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de wrote: > > and more documentation also at > http://www.hp41.org/Intro.cfm Somehow, I missed finding HP41.org in my searches so far. That looks like a fantastic resource. Thank you! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 17 09:15:22 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 15:15:22 +0100 Subject: LK401 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <573B086E.8010604@compsys.to> References: <87wpmtuj70.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> <87k2issyqs.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> <573B086E.8010604@compsys.to> Message-ID: <01f001d1b046$8cfb3e10$a6f1ba30$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. > Fine > Sent: 17 May 2016 13:03 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: LK401 Keyboard > > >Aaron Jackson wrote: > > >Hi Dave, > > > >Yes it was Harrison Lighting. I'm hoping there will be a spare > >compatible keyboard lying around in my department. I don't think ?50 > >was a bad price for a VT420, but it would have been much better if it > >included the keyboard. > > > > > >>Dave Wade writes: > > > >>If it's Harrison Lights he has keyboards priced so he gets what he > >>thinks a > >>VT420 is worth... :-( > >>On 17 May 2016 10:28, "Aaron Jackson" wrote: > >> > >>>Hi all, > >>> > >>>Bought a VT420 off eBay last night which should be arriving sometime > >>>this week. Unfortunately it doesn't come with a keyboard. Is there > >>>anyone near Nottingham (UK) willing to sell an DEC LK401 keyboard for > >>>a fair price > >>> > If I remember correctly, the LK201 from a VT220 or a VT320 will also work > correctly on a VT420. Can anyone else confirm this? > > That make help you to locate a keyboard that can be used with a VT420. > > For example, the keyboard for a VT100 is completely incompatible with both > the VT220 and VT420. > > Jerome Fine Keyboards seem quite rare. I have a couple of Vax Stations that are short of keyboards and I think these take an LK401 so I would also like one if any one has one. I am pretty sure he knows keyboards are hard to find and so he sells them outside E-Bay. Give him a ring and see what his price is. I got one and it wasn't totally extortionate. Daft thing is if he listed the keyboards with the terminals I am pretty sure the price would go up.... Dave G4UGM From scaron at diablonet.net Tue May 17 10:30:50 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 11:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: T400 Transputer for sale @ebay.de In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2016, Mattis Lind wrote: > Once in the day I thought Inmos and their transputer family was quite > interesting. I had an idea of doing som sort of project. But of course > there were no real time to be found to do anything (not sure if this has > changed today). > > While browsing for something else I found someone at Ebay in Germany > selling T400 in 68 pin PLCC. > > http://www.ebay.de/itm/131355196522 > > Are there tools (Occam etc) around to do anything with these today? > > /Mattis > Nice! I'd probably pick up a few of them if a seller here in the US had a similar deal going ... if only to have an example of them. That said, I know there's plenty of hobbyist interest in them and I bet you'd be able to rustle up some tools without too much trouble. Go for it :O Best, Sean From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 17 12:11:19 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 18:11:19 +0100 Subject: LK401 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <573B086E.8010604@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 17/05/2016 13:02, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > If I remember correctly, the LK201 from a VT220 or a VT320 will also > work correctly on a VT420. Can anyone else confirm this? > > That make help you to locate a keyboard that can be used with a VT420. Ta-daa - http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/vt420lk201.jpg It was only in taking that picture that I realised there hasn't been an LK401 with that VT for *years* -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From spc at conman.org Tue May 17 13:21:16 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 14:21:16 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > This has been waiting for a reply for too long... As has this ... > On 4 May 2016 at 20:59, Sean Conner wrote: > > > > Part of that was the MMU-less 68000. It certainly made message passing > > cheap (since you could just send a pointer and avoid copying the message) > > Well, yes. I know several Amiga fans who refer to classic AmigaOS as > being a de-facto microkernel implementation, but ISTM that that is > overly simplistic. The point of microkernels, ISTM, is that the > different elements of an OS are in different processes, isolated by > memory management, and communicate over defined interfaces to work > together to provide the functionality of a conventional monolithic > kernel. Nope, memory management is not a requirement for a microkernel. It's a "nice to have" but not "fundamental to implementation." Just as you can have a preemptive kernel on a CPU without memory management (any 68000 based system) or user/kernel level instruction split (any 8-bit CPU). > If they're all in the same memory space, then even if they're > functionally separate, they can communicate through shared memory -- While the Amiga may have "cheated" by passing a reference to the message instead of copying it, conceptually, it was passing a message (for all the user knows, the message *could* be copied before being sent). I still consider AmigaOS as a message based operating system. Also, QNX was first written for the 8088, a machine not known for having a memory management unit, nor supervisor mode instructions. > > I think what made the Amiga so fast (even with a 7.1MHz CPU) > > was the specialized hardware. You pretty much used the MC68000 to script > > the hardware. > > That seems a bit harsh! :-) Not in light of this blog article: http://prog21.dadgum.com/173.html While I might not fully agree with his views, he does make some compelling arguments and makes me think. > But Curtis Yarvin is a strange person, and at least via his > pseudonymous mouthpiece Mencius Moldbug, has some unpalatable views. > > You are, I presume, aware of the controversy over his appearance at > LambdaConf this year? Yes I am. My view: no one is forcing you to attend his talk. And if no one attends his talks, the liklihood of him appearing again (or at another conference) goes down. What is wrong with these people? > > Nice in theory. Glacial performance in practice. > > Everything was glacial once. > > We've had 4 decades of very well-funded R&D aimed at producing faster > C machines. Oddly, x86 has remained ahead of the pack and most of the > RISC families ended up sidelined, except ARM. Funny how things turn > out. The Wintel monopoly of the desktop flooded Intel with enough money to keep the x86 line going. Given enough money, even pigs can fly. Internally, the x86 lines is RISC. The legacy instructions are read in and translated into an internal machine lanuage that is more RISC like than CISC. All sorts of crazy things going on inside that CPU architecture. > > The Lisp machines had tagged memory to help with the garbage collection > > and avoid wasting tons of memory. Yeah, it also had CPU instructions like > > CAR and CDR (even the IBM 704 had those [4]). Even the VAX nad QUEUE > > instructions to add and remove items from a linked list. I think it's > > really the tagged memory that made the Lisp machines special. > > We have 64-bit machines now. GPUs are wider still. I think we could > afford a few tag bits. I personally wouldn't mind a few user bits per byte myself. I'm not sure we'll ever see such a system. > > Of course we need > > to burn the disc packs. > > I don't understand this. It's in reference to Alan Kay saying "burn the disc packs" with respect to Smalltalk (which I was told is a mistake on my part, but then everybody failed to read Alan's mind about "object oriented" programming and he's still pissed off about that, so misunderstanding him seems to be par for course). It's also an oblique reference to Charles Moore, who has gone on record as saying the ANSI Forth Standard is a mistake that no one should use---in fact, he's gone as far as saying that *any* "standard" Forth misses the point and that if you want Forth, write it your damn self! > If you mean that, in order to get to saner, more productive, more > powerful computer architectures, we need to throw away much of what's > been built and go right back to building new foundations, then yes, I > fear so. Careful. Read up on the Intel 432, a state of the art CPU in 1981. > Yes, tear down the foundations and rebuild, but top of the new > replacement, much existing code could, in principle, be retained and > re-used. And Real Soon Now, we'll all be running point-to-point connections on IPv6 ... -spc From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue May 17 13:56:30 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 19:56:30 +0100 Subject: LK401 Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <573B086E.8010604@compsys.to> Message-ID: <87h9dwa4yp.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> Ah great. There is at least one VT220 where I work so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a spare LK201 keyboard lying around. You have broadened my options by quite a bit. Thanks for the information. :) Aaron Adrian Graham writes: > On 17/05/2016 13:02, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >> If I remember correctly, the LK201 from a VT220 or a VT320 will also >> work correctly on a VT420. Can anyone else confirm this? >> >> That make help you to locate a keyboard that can be used with a VT420. > > Ta-daa - http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/vt420lk201.jpg > > It was only in taking that picture that I realised there hasn't been an > LK401 with that VT for *years* -- From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue May 17 14:30:44 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 14:30:44 -0500 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > This post: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-16744.html > Seems to indicate that the Rainbow is a 15khz sync signal, more akin to > normal interlaced video- which I called out in my other post as being the > one type of signal that doesn't always work for these displays. > > You may find success using a GBS-8220 scan-doubler, (ebay, c. $28 > USD), perhaps with a sync-strainer circuit to feed the SoG signal to the > Scan Doubler as composite sync, if it doesn't work directly with the > 2007FP. > > Curious to hear what you figure out. > Another Dell that people mention is the Ultrasharp 2001FP. Apparently you want one that was made before June 2005, because then it would be sure to do 15kHz; some models going up to September 2005 apparently also had support, but it's not guaranteed. Do either the 2001 or 2007 support *digital* RGB/CGA out of the box? -- Eric Christopherson From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 17 14:55:25 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 15:55:25 -0400 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: > On May 17, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > ... > Do either the 2001 or 2007 support *digital* RGB/CGA out of the box? What is "digital RGB"? I know RGB as a trio of analog signals. HDMI is digital, as is DVI; did you mean those? paul From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue May 17 14:58:17 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 12:58:17 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: I was under the impression it was the same as analog RGB, but for shitty cards that don't USE the analog-ness of the RGB standard, and just have two state- 0 directly to _MAX in "analog value" On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On May 17, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Eric Christopherson < > echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > ... > > Do either the 2001 or 2007 support *digital* RGB/CGA out of the box? > > What is "digital RGB"? I know RGB as a trio of analog signals. HDMI is > digital, as is DVI; did you mean those? > > paul > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue May 17 15:05:08 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 15:05:08 -0500 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > I was under the impression it was the same as analog RGB, but for shitty > cards that don't USE the analog-ness of the RGB standard, and just have two > state- 0 directly to _MAX in "analog value" > Yes. It's TTL level. Since posing my question, I've gotten a tiny bit more educated: 1. Some sites talk about e.g. arcade graphics as being "analog CGA" -- I was acquainted with these being called "analog RGB" but never saw "analog" and "CGA" together before. 2. There are computers knocking about with actual digital RGB signals, like the BBC Micro B (IIRC). What I forgot to make explicit in my question was that I was asking about RGBI (+intensity), which AIUI is the same as CGA. Now, I'm confused about point 1: did actual PCs with CGA have both digital (TTL) and analog signaling? > > On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Paul Koning > wrote: > > > > > > On May 17, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Eric Christopherson < > > echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > Do either the 2001 or 2007 support *digital* RGB/CGA out of the box? > > > > What is "digital RGB"? I know RGB as a trio of analog signals. HDMI is > > digital, as is DVI; did you mean those? > > > > paul > > > > > > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > -- Eric Christopherson From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 15:56:17 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 20:56:17 +0000 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> , Message-ID: > > 1. Some sites talk about e.g. arcade graphics as being "analog CGA" -- I > was acquainted with these being called "analog RGB" but never saw "analog" > and "CGA" together before. I susepct it means that it's 3 analogue signals (one for each colour) at the CGA (== US TV, RS170) scan rates. As opposed, say, to VGA which is 3 analogue signals with a rather higher horizontal scan rate. > 2. There are computers knocking about with actual digital RGB signals, like > the BBC Micro B (IIRC). What I forgot to make explicit in my question was Yes, it dodes. The BBC micro has 3 TTL signals on the RGB connector. A total of 8 possible colours. > that I was asking about RGBI (+intensity), which AIUI is the same as CGA. Normally yes. I don't see any reason why RGBI signals could not be used at a different scan rate, but AFAIK no machine ever did. > Now, I'm confused about point 1: did actual PCs with CGA have both digital > (TTL) and analog signaling? Not really. The original CGA card, and most clones, have a composite video output too with NTSC-encoded colour, but that is not what you are asking about. -tony From imp at bsdimp.com Tue May 17 19:11:38 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 18:11:38 -0600 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: <20160513093148.GA4484@Update.UU.SE> References: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> <20160513093148.GA4484@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I have it on floppies, but no easy way to read those floppies onto a networked computer... Warner On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 3:31 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 07:40:08AM +0100, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I understand that DEC created a version of Windows for the Rainbow. Does > > anyone have this? > > Have you seen: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?28472-Rainbow-Windows > > maybe getting a hold of Jeff "PrintStar" Armstrong could be a start. > > /P > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > > From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue May 17 20:11:32 2016 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 18:11:32 -0700 Subject: Virtual Swap Meet was Re: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace Message-ID: > > > I would love to see a specialized vintage bazaar where you can find what > you > want at a reasonable price from trusted sources but the reality is that > will > never happen in e-commerce. For better and worse eBay has spoiled us and > created certain expectation. The only way we could ever have a decent > vintage exchange would be to have a swap meet which is of course its own > logical nightmare (not to mention the massive over head costs). > > > I would probably be interested. since I am going on 70 I have come to realize that I need to part with some of my collection. However in the above paragraph I think there is a great suggestion. Host a virtual swap meet. Interested people could have a table to fill. Set a time limit, like a week for the sale. I think a weekend is too short for virtual people. Let the vendors do the pricing and selling. Collect a fee for the table to cover the overhead. Social media could spread the URL of the sale. People could check in at their leisure. Like any other swap meet we would soon know who sells high, who sells bargains (and you have to get there earlier in the week), who is not reliable, etc.. Some sort of moderated feedback system would be a good idea. I think a time limit like a swap meet a good idea. It allows for transactions to be completed and not overwhelm the seller. Everyone will have to calculate their own shipping, just like we do now. Shipping weight with the description would be handy. And the vendor should set clear shipping rules for his table This method would keep the host out of the transaction and eliminate the need for a shopping cart. The Host could hold one every 3 months to cover expenses. We would soon know if it is a viable idea. And this route shouldn't cost as much. Vendors could sell one collectable to those of us that used to provide parts and would have multiple tables full. I think there should be a limit to how much fits on a table (or in a table space) just for control of bandwidth and give a way for the host to cover expenses. Just brainstorming here... I used to love selling at Ham and Computer swap meets. The internet allows for virtual communities. Why can't it allow for a virtual swap meet. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Tue May 17 21:45:51 2016 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 22:45:51 -0400 Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001001d1b0af$649951f0$2dcbf5d0$@sc.rr.com> Hi Christian, How much to ship one of these 26.5" square LCD monitor? Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti > Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 4:44 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 > > First I want to note that everybody is missing the subject about *square > 1:1* displays... > > On Mon, 16 May 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I have been keeping my eye out for older panels. I have some 12" 4:3 > > and a few 17" 4:3 and I think one 19" 4:3. Never run across anything > > larger. I don't think there were too many 4:3 LCD televisions sold > > larger than 19"... some, perhaps, but not many. The world switched to > > 16:9 about the time prices started falling on > 19" panels. > > We have/had tons of 4:3 20" monitors (mainly Philips and HP). I will have to junk them because they have been replaced by newer > ones and I really don't collect modern LCD monitors. > > > I have a couple of arcade cabinets I'd love to switch to LCD. No luck > > yet except with a 16:9 that would fill the cabinet space but give me a > > black bars and a smaller playfield size than the CRT. > > Why? Can't you ignore (i.e. hide) the left and right margins? > > Christian From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue May 17 23:37:02 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 21:37:02 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: <898D9A74-7DE0-4254-BEC7-C4D795D37BCC@eschatologist.net> On May 17, 2016, at 1:05 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > 2. There are computers knocking about with actual digital RGB signals, like > the BBC Micro B (IIRC). What I forgot to make explicit in my question was > that I was asking about RGBI (+intensity), which AIUI is the same as CGA. I think the Apple /// also output a digital RGB signal that was either RGBI or a couple bits per channel. -- Chris From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed May 18 00:44:09 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 02:44:09 -0300 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: "moroless" Firstly, CGA is RGBI (digital RGB, with R, G, B and I for Intensity. But there is a small difference in color 6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Graphics_Adapter (see "Color Pallete") - Arcade graphics are analog RGB in TV resolution (480i, 15.750KHz horizontal, 60Hz vertical) - CGA is **never** analog. - Lots of old computers use RGBI (digital RGB). From my head: BBC mod. B, Sinclair Spectrum +2/+3, Commodore 128, Amiga (yes, it outputs digital AND analog RGB) - There is no such thing as a CGA board with analog outputs. 2016-05-17 17:05 GMT-03:00 Eric Christopherson : > On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > > > I was under the impression it was the same as analog RGB, but for shitty > > cards that don't USE the analog-ness of the RGB standard, and just have > two > > state- 0 directly to _MAX in "analog value" > > > > Yes. It's TTL level. Since posing my question, I've gotten a tiny bit more > educated: > 1. Some sites talk about e.g. arcade graphics as being "analog CGA" -- I > was acquainted with these being called "analog RGB" but never saw "analog" > and "CGA" together before. > 2. There are computers knocking about with actual digital RGB signals, like > the BBC Micro B (IIRC). What I forgot to make explicit in my question was > that I was asking about RGBI (+intensity), which AIUI is the same as CGA. > > Now, I'm confused about point 1: did actual PCs with CGA have both digital > (TTL) and analog signaling? > > > > > > On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Paul Koning > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On May 17, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Eric Christopherson < > > > echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > ... > > > > Do either the 2001 or 2007 support *digital* RGB/CGA out of the box? > > > > > > What is "digital RGB"? I know RGB as a trio of analog signals. HDMI > is > > > digital, as is DVI; did you mean those? > > > > > > paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ian Finder > > (206) 395-MIPS > > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > > > -- > Eric Christopherson > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed May 18 00:59:11 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 01:59:11 -0400 Subject: Genicom 3410 printer maint manual needed Message-ID: <78df6c.10a373cb.446d5eaf@aol.com> Genicom 3410 printer maint manual needed Anyone have one? Drop me a line offlist. Thx Ed# From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 18 01:24:02 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 07:24:02 +0100 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: References: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> <20160513093148.GA4484@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Perhaps someone else on the list has the necessary facilities, where are you located? Certainly I want to find a way to image the floppies I have too for safe keeping of the software. Regards Rob From: Warner Losh Sent: 18 May 2016 01:11 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow I have it on floppies, but no easy way to read those floppies onto a networked computer... Warner On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 3:31 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 07:40:08AM +0100, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I understand that DEC created a version of Windows for the Rainbow. Does > > anyone have this? > > Have you seen: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?28472-Rainbow-Windows > > maybe getting a hold of Jeff "PrintStar" Armstrong could be a start. > > /P > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed May 18 02:58:16 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 00:58:16 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <8a9df73e-f754-e6f6-e5a1-2829da68fceb@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <8a9df73e-f754-e6f6-e5a1-2829da68fceb@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1065662A-1C0B-41A4-B5A1-6F7D14262068@eschatologist.net> On May 11, 2016, at 5:41 PM, ben wrote: > > On 5/11/2016 5:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2016-05-11 7:43 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> ... >>> If we'd had 4 decades of effort aimed at fast Lisp Machines, I think >>> we'd have them. >> >> Compiled Lisp, even on generic hardware, is fast. Fast enough, in fact, >> that it obviated Symbolics. (More in Richard P. Gabriel's history of >> Lucid.) See also: The newly open sourced Chez Scheme. > > But List still sequential processing as far as I can see? How do you speed that up? Lisp has had data structures beyond lists for decades. You don?t think a CLOS object is implemented as lists of lists of lists, do you? -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed May 18 02:59:43 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 00:59:43 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On May 17, 2016, at 11:21 AM, Sean Conner wrote: > > While the Amiga may have "cheated" by passing a reference to the message > instead of copying it, conceptually, it was passing a message (for all the > user knows, the message *could* be copied before being sent). I still > consider AmigaOS as a message based operating system. This is mostly what real microkernels do as well: Mach got very well-documented speedups from zero-copy sends that were specifically enabled by clever use of memory management hardware, and these kinds of techniques are still used in xnu on OS X today. -- Chris From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 18 06:04:37 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 07:04:37 -0400 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: References: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> <20160513093148.GA4484@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <573C4C45.3000500@compsys.to> >Warner Losh wrote: >I have it on floppies, but no easy way to read those floppies onto a >networked computer... > >Warner > >>On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 3:31 AM, Pontus Pihlgren >wrote: > >>>On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 07:40:08AM +0100, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> >> >>>I understand that DEC created a version of Windows for the Rainbow. Does >>>anyone have this? >>> >>> >>Have you seen: >> >>http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?28472-Rainbow-Windows >> >>maybe getting a hold of Jeff "PrintStar" Armstrong could be a start. >> Do you know anyone who has a older computer with a 5 1/4" HD floppy drive? While a 64-bit Windows 7 system will not run PUTR by John Wilson from dbit, even a 32-bit Windows XP system can do so. Since the Rainbow used an RX50 floppy drive, PUTR is able to read RX50 type media and copy the image to a hard disk file which can then be attached to an e-mail and sent anywhere. Please ask if you need more help. Jerome Fine From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed May 18 07:34:55 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 08:34:55 -0400 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: <573C4C45.3000500@compsys.to> References: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> <20160513093148.GA4484@Update.UU.SE> <573C4C45.3000500@compsys.to> Message-ID: > Have you seen: >>> >>> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?28472-Rainbow-Windows >>> >>> maybe getting a hold of Jeff "PrintStar" Armstrong could be a start. >>> >>> Do you know anyone who has a older computer with a 5 1/4" HD floppy > drive? > > While a 64-bit Windows 7 system will not run PUTR by John Wilson from dbit, > even a 32-bit Windows XP system can do so. Since the Rainbow used an RX50 > floppy drive, PUTR is able to read RX50 type media and copy the image to a > hard disk file which can then be attached to an e-mail and sent anywhere. > > Please ask if you need more help. > > Jerome Fine > Does PUTR require an HD floppy to create a WIn 1.0 for Rainbow disk set? Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 18 08:31:10 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 15:31:10 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 17 May 2016 at 20:21, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> This has been waiting for a reply for too long... > > As has this ... :-) >> On 4 May 2016 at 20:59, Sean Conner wrote: >> > >> > Part of that was the MMU-less 68000. It certainly made message passing >> > cheap (since you could just send a pointer and avoid copying the message) >> >> Well, yes. I know several Amiga fans who refer to classic AmigaOS as >> being a de-facto microkernel implementation, but ISTM that that is >> overly simplistic. The point of microkernels, ISTM, is that the >> different elements of an OS are in different processes, isolated by >> memory management, and communicate over defined interfaces to work >> together to provide the functionality of a conventional monolithic >> kernel. > > Nope, memory management is not a requirement for a microkernel. It's a > "nice to have" but not "fundamental to implementation." Just as you can have > a preemptive kernel on a CPU without memory management (any 68000 based > system) or user/kernel level instruction split (any 8-bit CPU). > >> If they're all in the same memory space, then even if they're >> functionally separate, they can communicate through shared memory -- > > While the Amiga may have "cheated" by passing a reference to the message > instead of copying it, conceptually, it was passing a message (for all the > user knows, the message *could* be copied before being sent). I still > consider AmigaOS as a message based operating system. > > Also, QNX was first written for the 8088, a machine not known for having a > memory management unit, nor supervisor mode instructions. There is surely an important difference between requirements to meet a definition, and requirements for being of pragmatic value. Sure, there are microkernels on MMU-less hardware. I was vaguely aware of QNX on 8088 although it had slipped my mind. But in a real-world general-purpose computer, is there much point? AIUI the main intention of microkernel designs in the Unix space was to promote code simplicity and clarity, ease debugging, and increase reliability. Is that not so? >> > I think what made the Amiga so fast (even with a 7.1MHz CPU) >> > was the specialized hardware. You pretty much used the MC68000 to script >> > the hardware. >> >> That seems a bit harsh! :-) > > Not in light of this blog article: http://prog21.dadgum.com/173.html Conceded! > While I might not fully agree with his views, he does make some compelling > arguments and makes me think. > >> But Curtis Yarvin is a strange person, and at least via his >> pseudonymous mouthpiece Mencius Moldbug, has some unpalatable views. >> >> You are, I presume, aware of the controversy over his appearance at >> LambdaConf this year? > > Yes I am. My view: no one is forcing you to attend his talk. And if no > one attends his talks, the liklihood of him appearing again (or at another > conference) goes down. What is wrong with these people? Well, I take your point and TBH I think I'd mostly agree with you. But I can also see that for many people Mencius Moldbug goes too far. >> > Nice in theory. Glacial performance in practice. >> >> Everything was glacial once. >> >> We've had 4 decades of very well-funded R&D aimed at producing faster >> C machines. Oddly, x86 has remained ahead of the pack and most of the >> RISC families ended up sidelined, except ARM. Funny how things turn >> out. > > The Wintel monopoly of the desktop flooded Intel with enough money to keep > the x86 line going. Given enough money, even pigs can fly. True. I liked a friend's suggestion recently on Twitter: @sbisson Here's a thought. If Intel updated the i960 RISC architecture for modern processes, would it have the ARM competitor it's looking for? > Internally, the x86 lines is RISC. The legacy instructions are read in > and translated into an internal machine lanuage that is more RISC like than > CISC. All sorts of crazy things going on inside that CPU architecture. True, but it's not alone in that. Transmeta went further and I am still sad that they did not push the idea further. >> > The Lisp machines had tagged memory to help with the garbage collection >> > and avoid wasting tons of memory. Yeah, it also had CPU instructions like >> > CAR and CDR (even the IBM 704 had those [4]). Even the VAX nad QUEUE >> > instructions to add and remove items from a linked list. I think it's >> > really the tagged memory that made the Lisp machines special. >> >> We have 64-bit machines now. GPUs are wider still. I think we could >> afford a few tag bits. > > I personally wouldn't mind a few user bits per byte myself. I'm not sure > we'll ever see such a system. Nor am I. Doesn't stop me hoping, though. >> > Of course we need >> > to burn the disc packs. >> >> I don't understand this. > > It's in reference to Alan Kay saying "burn the disc packs" with respect to > Smalltalk (which I was told is a mistake on my part, but then everybody > failed to read Alan's mind about "object oriented" programming and he's > still pissed off about that, so misunderstanding him seems to be par for > course). Aha! > It's also an oblique reference to Charles Moore, who has gone on record as > saying the ANSI Forth Standard is a mistake that no one should use---in > fact, he's gone as far as saying that *any* "standard" Forth misses the > point and that if you want Forth, write it your damn self! OIC. Yes. This sort of attitude is one of the problems. There are, I think, at least 3 types of programmers: * Geniuses, who can use very hard, dangerous, tools safely to achieve amazing things. Such tools include C, Lisp, assembler, etc. * Non-geniuses, most of whom are in accordance with Dunning-Kruger and don't know it. They use the same tools, make mistakes, and the results go wrong in tragic or very expensive or disastrous ways. At best, they produce stuff that mostly works most of the time, and their output comprises the bulk of the industry. * Workmen. They don't think they're geniuses, they just have a job to do, but the freedom to choose their own tools. For me, they are perhaps best exemplified by the legions of Delphi developers that used to get a ton of work done in the Windows space. More recently -- or in the FOSS world, perhaps -- it's Python. Finally, of course, there is the fourth type: people writing code who do not consider themselves programmers at all. Vast Excel spreadsheets, self-taught builders of elaborate Access databases, or dabblers using VB building simple little hacks that evolve over years into complex systems that are nearly unmaintainable. The problem is that type #2 here covers most people, and sadly, the ivory towers of the industry & academia do not accept that certain languages or language features are actually widely-liked or attractive to people because they do not fit with the prevailing wisdom. So, although, for instance, TP & later Delphi demonstrated that the Pascal family can be appealing, practical, and a desirable choice; and the Oberon OS proves that the Pascal family can be used to build an entire, practical, useful and widely-used (in its niche) OS from the metal up. But no, the received wisdom is that Pascal & its relatives are not suitable for OS construction, and not well suited for the creation of commercial apps. So, instead, we have a global multi-hundred-billion-dollar problem with buffer overflows and stack-smashing attacks, because EVERYONE knows that C is more suitable for OS kernels and that if you need performance and tight code then C is a good choice. >> If you mean that, in order to get to saner, more productive, more >> powerful computer architectures, we need to throw away much of what's >> been built and go right back to building new foundations, then yes, I >> fear so. > > Careful. Read up on the Intel 432, a state of the art CPU in 1981. Touch?. >> Yes, tear down the foundations and rebuild, but top of the new >> replacement, much existing code could, in principle, be retained and >> re-used. > > And Real Soon Now, we'll all be running point-to-point connections on > IPv6 ... I have a link about that if I can only find it, but not wanting to leave this dangling for another week... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 10:23:14 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 15:23:14 +0000 Subject: Surplus DEC MINC Message-ID: I have a DEC MINC that I don't _really_ need and wonder if anyone is interested. It's the hard disk model. A half-height rack containing a pair of RL01s and a power controller with the MINC CPU box bolted on top. It contains the normal cards : PDP11/03 CPU M8044 memory (30kW IIRC) DLV11-J (4 RS232 ports) IBV11 (IEEE-488 interface) RLV11 Some parallel printer interface (LPV11?) BDV11 (Bootstrap/terminator) And 7 MINC modules : MNCAA (ADC) MNCAD (DAC) 2 off MNCDI (16 bit digital input) 2 off MNCDO (16 bit digital output) MNCKW (clock generator) Bad points : It is untested, assume it needs repair (but the boards, etc are intact) I would recomend doing electrical safety tests before applying mains! No connector blocks for the MINC modules No disk packs (but I might be able to find some) No terminal or cable (but not hard to sort something out) It could do wth cleaning (if you spin up the drives they will almost certainly headcrash). But no smoking near it ever. It MUST BE COLLECTED from me (SE London, near Bromley, not too far from M25). There is no way I can ship it. I will help dismantle it into units and load it into your car/van (I think it will all go in an estate car). Good point It's free. I do not want any money for it. I want it to go to somebody who will make use of it (either restore it, put it on display, or use it for spare parts for PDP11s), not somebody who wants to raid the gold from the edge connectors. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 10:26:25 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 15:26:25 +0000 Subject: 'Inside Macintosh' books Message-ID: Still unpacking after a house move 18 months ago... I have found just over a dozen volumes of Inside Macintosh. Since programing is not my thing, and I am not into the Macintosh, I don't really need them. Does anyone want them? Tbey are free, but would have to be collected from me in SE London (near Bromley, easy to get to from the M25). I can make a list of titles if there is any interest. -tony From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Wed May 18 10:33:51 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 09:33:51 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > > > The problem is that type #2 here covers most people, and sadly, the > ivory towers of the industry & academia do not accept that certain > languages or language features are actually widely-liked or attractive > to people because they do not fit with the prevailing wisdom. So, > although, for instance, TP & later Delphi demonstrated that the Pascal > family can be appealing, practical, and a desirable choice; and the > Oberon OS proves that the Pascal family can be used to build an > entire, practical, useful and widely-used (in its niche) OS from the > metal up. > > Let's not forget that the bulk of the Apple Lisa operating system and at least large parts of the original Macintosh system software were also implemented in Pascal (though IIRC hand-translated into 68k assembly language), which was a pretty big mainstream success for proving Pascal as suitable for developing systems software. From imp at bsdimp.com Wed May 18 10:38:39 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 09:38:39 -0600 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: <573C4C45.3000500@compsys.to> References: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> <20160513093148.GA4484@Update.UU.SE> <573C4C45.3000500@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 5:04 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Warner Losh wrote: > > I have it on floppies, but no easy way to read those floppies onto a >> networked computer... >> >> Warner >> >> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 3:31 AM, Pontus Pihlgren >>> >> wrote: >> >> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 07:40:08AM +0100, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>>> >>> >>> >>>> I understand that DEC created a version of Windows for the Rainbow. Does >>>> anyone have this? >>>> >>>> >>> Have you seen: >>> >>> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?28472-Rainbow-Windows >>> >>> maybe getting a hold of Jeff "PrintStar" Armstrong could be a start. >>> >>> Do you know anyone who has a older computer with a 5 1/4" HD floppy > drive? > > While a 64-bit Windows 7 system will not run PUTR by John Wilson from dbit, > even a 32-bit Windows XP system can do so. Since the Rainbow used an RX50 > floppy drive, PUTR is able to read RX50 type media and copy the image to a > hard disk file which can then be attached to an e-mail and sent anywhere. > Does PUTR run on FreeBSD? I can DD the floppies on FreeBSD w/o an issue because the RX-50's or the TEAC FD-55's that I have work just fine. I just don't know what the current state of play is wrt interchange formats actually is. I have the Rainbow in the basement, and could setup a kermit server and copy the files over one at a time. I haven't peeled back the covers beyond the disks that have the labels on them. Sadly, I have no windows machines in this house, and haven't for quite some time. Warner From scaron at diablonet.net Wed May 18 10:51:28 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 11:51:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, John Willis wrote: >> >> >> The problem is that type #2 here covers most people, and sadly, the >> ivory towers of the industry & academia do not accept that certain >> languages or language features are actually widely-liked or attractive >> to people because they do not fit with the prevailing wisdom. So, >> although, for instance, TP & later Delphi demonstrated that the Pascal >> family can be appealing, practical, and a desirable choice; and the >> Oberon OS proves that the Pascal family can be used to build an >> entire, practical, useful and widely-used (in its niche) OS from the >> metal up. >> >> > Let's not forget that the bulk of the Apple Lisa operating system and > at least large parts of the original Macintosh system software were also > implemented in Pascal (though IIRC hand-translated into 68k assembly > language), which was a pretty big mainstream success for proving > Pascal as suitable for developing systems software. > Pascal was probably the predominant applications development language on Mac OS through the mid 1990s or so, no? Certainly all the Toolbox bindings were originally written with the idea that people would be developing in Pascal. Best, Sean From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed May 18 11:05:54 2016 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 17:05:54 +0100 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: <573C4C45.3000500@compsys.to> References: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> <20160513093148.GA4484@Update.UU.SE> <573C4C45.3000500@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 18 May 2016 at 12:04, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > While a 64-bit Windows 7 system will not run PUTR by John Wilson from dbit, > even a 32-bit Windows XP system can do so. Since the Rainbow used an RX50 > floppy drive, PUTR is able to read RX50 type media and copy the image to a > hard disk file which can then be attached to an e-mail and sent anywhere. > > It will under Dosbox, which is how I use it... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed May 18 11:11:57 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 13:11:57 -0300 Subject: 'Inside Macintosh' books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ue...I have the 4 volume collection...is there another one?! Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 18/05/2016 12:29, "tony duell" escreveu: > Still unpacking after a house move 18 months ago... I have found just over > a dozen volumes of Inside Macintosh. > > Since programing is not my thing, and I am not into the Macintosh, I don't > really need them. Does anyone want them? Tbey are free, but would have to > be collected from me in SE London (near Bromley, easy to get to from the > M25). > > I can make a list of titles if there is any interest. > > -tony > From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed May 18 10:59:21 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 11:59:21 -0400 Subject: Surplus DEC MINC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tony, How quickly do you need it to be gone? I'd love to have one, but it might be a while until I can collect it in the UK... Camiel. On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 11:23 AM, tony duell wrote: > I have a DEC MINC that I don't _really_ need and wonder if anyone is > interested. > > It's the hard disk model. A half-height rack containing a pair of RL01s > and a power controller with the MINC CPU box bolted on top. It > contains the normal cards : > PDP11/03 CPU > M8044 memory (30kW IIRC) > DLV11-J (4 RS232 ports) > IBV11 (IEEE-488 interface) > RLV11 > Some parallel printer interface (LPV11?) > BDV11 (Bootstrap/terminator) > > And 7 MINC modules : > MNCAA (ADC) > MNCAD (DAC) > 2 off MNCDI (16 bit digital input) > 2 off MNCDO (16 bit digital output) > MNCKW (clock generator) > > Bad points : > > It is untested, assume it needs repair (but the boards, etc are intact) > I would recomend doing electrical safety tests before applying mains! > > No connector blocks for the MINC modules > > No disk packs (but I might be able to find some) > > No terminal or cable (but not hard to sort something out) > > It could do wth cleaning (if you spin up the drives they will almost > certainly headcrash). But no smoking near it ever. > > It MUST BE COLLECTED from me (SE London, near Bromley, not too far > from M25). There is no way I can ship it. I will help dismantle it into > units and load it into your car/van (I think it will all go in an estate > car). > > Good point > > It's free. I do not want any money for it. > > I want it to go to somebody who will make use of it (either restore it, put it > on display, or use it for spare parts for PDP11s), not somebody who wants > to raid the gold from the edge connectors. > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 11:27:05 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:27:05 +0000 Subject: 'Inside Macintosh' books In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > Ue...I have the 4 volume collection...is there another one?! Apparently, there is. This is really not my area, but I've just read the titles off the books. All say 'Inside Macintosh' and 'Apple Technical Library' on them. The titles are : Overview Processes Imaging with QuickDraw PowerPC System Software Files Networking Macintosh Toolbox Essentials Memory QuickTime Text More Macintosh Toolbox QuickDraw GX QuickTime Components With them was another Macintosh book : ResEdit Reference (for ResEdit v2.1) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 11:29:17 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:29:17 +0000 Subject: Surplus DEC MINC In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > How quickly do you need it to be gone? I'd love to have one, but it > might be a while until I can collect it in the UK... I feel like saying that 'the sooner the better'. It is not totally urgent, but I am trying to sort things out... I am not going to scrap it. It can stay in my Large Machine Room until a good home is found. But I think if somebody can collect it before you, then they are going to get it... -tony From spacewar at gmail.com Wed May 18 11:46:11 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 10:46:11 -0600 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: References: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> <20160513093148.GA4484@Update.UU.SE> <573C4C45.3000500@compsys.to> Message-ID: On May 18, 2016 6:35 AM, "william degnan" wrote: > Does PUTR require an HD floppy to create a WIn 1.0 for Rainbow disk set? Technically it doesn't have to be HD, but it has to be 80-track, and the only 80-track 5.25" drives commonly found on PCs are the "1.2M" HD ones. A "360K" PC drive won't suffice. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed May 18 12:02:26 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 18:02:26 +0100 Subject: Surplus DEC MINC In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <89e901d1b127$0df81ca0$29e855e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 18 May 2016 17:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Surplus DEC MINC > > > > > > How quickly do you need it to be gone? I'd love to have one, but it > > might be a while until I can collect it in the UK... > > I feel like saying that 'the sooner the better'. It is not totally urgent, but I am > trying to sort things out... > > I am not going to scrap it. It can stay in my Large Machine Room until a good > home is found. But I think if somebody can collect it before you, then they are > going to get it... > > -tony Not sure I want a whole MINC but a couple of RL02's and controller card would be nice for my ex VAX console 11... .. where in the UK is your larg computer room? Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 12:04:48 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 17:04:48 +0000 Subject: Surplus DEC MINC In-Reply-To: <89e901d1b127$0df81ca0$29e855e0$@gmail.com> References: , , <89e901d1b127$0df81ca0$29e855e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > I am not going to scrap it. It can stay in my Large Machine Room until a > > good home is found. But I think if somebody can collect it before you, > > then they are going to get it... > Not sure I want a whole MINC but a couple of RL02's and controller card > would be nice for my ex VAX console 11... A couple of points. They're RL01s, not RL02s. And the controller is the 2 board set (RLV11), whch needs a backplane with CD interconnect. I do not want to part this out!. I would rather it went as one unit to somebody (if they want to use bits on other machines that's fine...) > .. where in the UK is your larg computer room? South-East London, near Bromley. I will give the exact address to anyone who is going to collect it, but for obvious reasons I am not going to put it on a public list. It is very easy to get to from the A25 (and thus not hard from the M25), you don't have to contend with London traffic. -tony From scaron at diablonet.net Wed May 18 12:13:03 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 13:13:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'Inside Macintosh' books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Ue...I have the 4 volume collection...is there another one?! > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > Em 18/05/2016 12:29, "tony duell" escreveu: > >> Still unpacking after a house move 18 months ago... I have found just over >> a dozen volumes of Inside Macintosh. >> >> Since programing is not my thing, and I am not into the Macintosh, I don't >> really need them. Does anyone want them? Tbey are free, but would have to >> be collected from me in SE London (near Bromley, easy to get to from the >> M25). >> >> I can make a list of titles if there is any interest. >> >> -tony >> > There were two printings of Inside Macintosh; the original printing was, I believe, a six or seven-volume set over time ... Subsequent to the release of System 7, they re-wrote and re-printed Inside Macintosh and it ended up split across a much wider number of volumes that were organized more on a functional, rather than chronological, basis. IMO, the earlier printing of Inside Macintosh is both more readable and is also of greater historical interest. I had a number of books myself out of the second printing and I got rid of them some years ago, only to later go and re-purchase a complete set of the first printing to archive ;) Best, Sean From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Wed May 18 12:21:04 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 18:21:04 +0100 Subject: Issues with VT420 (was Re: LK401 Keyboard) In-Reply-To: <87wpmtuj70.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <87wpmtuj70.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: <878tz7qo3j.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> The terminal arrived today but unfortunately it doesn't power on. I've checked the fuse and continuity of the cable, fiddled with the contrast, etc. It doesn't do anything, not even a self test. The terminal is completely silent, not even a transformer humming. I have contacted the seller, but if anyone has any suggestions about what might be the issue, please let me know. Thanks all, Aaron Aaron Jackson writes: > Hi all, > > Bought a VT420 off eBay last night which should be arriving sometime > this week. Unfortunately it doesn't come with a keyboard. Is there > anyone near Nottingham (UK) willing to sell an DEC LK401 keyboard for a > fair price? > > Thanks, > > Aaron -- From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed May 18 12:39:14 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 10:39:14 -0700 Subject: 'Inside Macintosh' books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For the original ?Inside Macintosh,? there was: 1. The prerelease looseleaf edition, sent to developers. 2. The ?phone book? edition where volumes I-III were combined, sent to developers. 3. The original ?Inside Macintosh? volumes I-III, and later IV and V to cover the Mac Plus and Mac SE & Mac II, with photos of Mac logic boards on the covers, sold at retail. 4. Reissues of volumes I-V with new-style covers to match the new volume VI covering System 7 technologies. And then a couple years after that, around the time the PowerPC-based Macs were released, there was ?New Inside Macintosh? where the entire series was reorganized into 25-30 volumes based on content. I don?t think any ?New Inside Macintosh? books were published after 1995 or so, though new ones were written to cover new technologies. -- Chris > On May 18, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Ue...I have the 4 volume collection...is there another one?! > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > Em 18/05/2016 12:29, "tony duell" escreveu: > >> Still unpacking after a house move 18 months ago... I have found just over >> a dozen volumes of Inside Macintosh. >> >> Since programing is not my thing, and I am not into the Macintosh, I don't >> really need them. Does anyone want them? Tbey are free, but would have to >> be collected from me in SE London (near Bromley, easy to get to from the >> M25). >> >> I can make a list of titles if there is any interest. >> >> -tony >> From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 18 12:55:52 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 10:55:52 -0700 Subject: 'Inside Macintosh' books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d1d0ee9-388e-a761-657b-b48ab263eef4@bitsavers.org> On 5/18/16 10:39 AM, Chris Hanson wrote: > And then a couple years after that, around the time the PowerPC-based Macs were released, there was ?New Inside Macintosh? where the entire series was reorganized into 25-30 volumes based on content. I don?t think any ?New Inside Macintosh? books were published after 1995 or so, though new ones were written to cover new technologies. > There also was a release on CD-ROM From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 13:00:38 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 11:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'Inside Macintosh' books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > There were two printings of Inside Macintosh; the original printing was, I > believe, a six or seven-volume set over time ... More than two printings. The first version was originally looseleaf. (4? volumes) Distributed to the "Certified Developer" program. Later, it was redone and released semi-commercially in "Perfect" (paperback/phonebook) binding, and marketed through a publisher. A set of those (4? volumes) was the last thing that I got from them as a certifiable developer. I later heard of a CD-ROM. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 18 13:01:54 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 19:01:54 +0100 Subject: Issues with VT420 (was Re: LK401 Keyboard) In-Reply-To: <878tz7qo3j.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: On 18/05/2016 18:21, "Aaron Jackson" wrote: > The terminal arrived today but unfortunately it doesn't power > on. I've checked the fuse and continuity of the cable, fiddled with the > contrast, etc. It doesn't do anything, not even a self test. The > terminal is completely silent, not even a transformer humming. > > I have contacted the seller, but if anyone has any suggestions about > what might be the issue, please let me know. > > Thanks all, > > Aaron The power switch at the front was notorious for breaking because it's a left/right slider and people got too 'energetic'. The terminal should show either 'keyboard error 4' if one isn't connected or 'VT420 OK' in a box in the centre of the screen if one is, as well as a beep. Make sure the power switch does slide cleanly from left (off) to right. Mind, if you've just bought this you'll not be wanting to take it to bits. I would, but that's because we as a company used to fix them. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 18 13:02:18 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 14:02:18 -0400 Subject: 'Inside Macintosh' books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > For the original ?Inside Macintosh,? there was: > > 1. The prerelease looseleaf edition, sent to developers. I remember leafing through that edition in the summer of 1984 and being horrified at all the Pascal-isms. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 18 13:05:54 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 14:05:54 -0400 Subject: Issues with VT420 (was Re: LK401 Keyboard) In-Reply-To: References: <878tz7qo3j.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 18/05/2016 18:21, "Aaron Jackson" wrote: > >> The terminal arrived today but unfortunately it doesn't power >> on. I've checked the fuse and continuity of the cable... > > The power switch at the front was notorious for breaking because it's a > left/right slider and people got too 'energetic'. Agreed. I have replaced more than one power switch on DEC terminals from "over-frobbing". The VT220/VT240 switch had a standard footprint, so I was able to get a functional replacement at Radio Shack for a few dollars. The VT100-family can take a standard ball-bat type toggle with brass fast-on tabs. I'm not sure about the switch type on the VT420, but definitely check that power is getting through it, especially if it feels "soft" when flipping it. -ethan From scaron at diablonet.net Wed May 18 13:15:54 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 14:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'Inside Macintosh' books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 18 May 2016, Sean Caron wrote: >> There were two printings of Inside Macintosh; the original printing was, I >> believe, a six or seven-volume set over time ... > > More than two printings. > The first version was originally looseleaf. (4? volumes) Distributed to the > "Certified Developer" program. > Later, it was redone and released semi-commercially in "Perfect" > (paperback/phonebook) binding, and marketed through a publisher. > A set of those (4? volumes) was the last thing that I got from them as a > certifiable developer. > > I later heard of a CD-ROM. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > I need to remember I can't play fast and loose with my wording when I send posts to the list ;) While there were multiple printings, it falls out that there are basically two major editions of Inside Macintosh; the early edition that was written more chronologically, and the later edition that was organized by sections of the Macintosh Toolbox. I believe there are other printings yet; my volumes one through five come in big 4" looseleaf binders, all official from Apple. My volume six is a plain bound edition ... not sure if it was ever available in looseleaf (probably, but why spend a lifetime looking?) The CD-ROM edition is the later Inside Macintosh and it is readily found on the Web. I believe Macintosh Garden has it. All volumes on the CD-ROM were provided as PDF documents so it's all still quite readable on modern machines. Best, Sean From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 18 13:18:13 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 19:18:13 +0100 Subject: Issues with VT420 (was Re: LK401 Keyboard) In-Reply-To: <878tz7qo3j.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <87wpmtuj70.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> <878tz7qo3j.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: I suspect there is noting for it but to open it up and check the power supply. Should it be necessary I have a small supply of flyback transformers, but I doubt it is that. Regards Rob Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Aaron Jackson Sent: 18 May 2016 18:21 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Issues with VT420 (was Re: LK401 Keyboard) The terminal arrived today but unfortunately it doesn't power on. I've checked the fuse and continuity of the cable, fiddled with the contrast, etc. It doesn't do anything, not even a self test. The terminal is completely silent, not even a transformer humming. I have contacted the seller, but if anyone has any suggestions about what might be the issue, please let me know. Thanks all, Aaron Aaron Jackson writes: > Hi all, > > Bought a VT420 off eBay last night which should be arriving sometime > this week. Unfortunately it doesn't come with a keyboard. Is there > anyone near Nottingham (UK) willing to sell an DEC LK401 keyboard for a > fair price? > > Thanks, > > Aaron -- From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Wed May 18 13:27:35 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 19:27:35 +0100 Subject: Issues with VT420 (was Re: LK401 Keyboard) In-Reply-To: References: <878tz7qo3j.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: <877ferql0o.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> I couldn't resist myself and had already taken it to bits by time you replied. I was a bit nervous but also very careful to discharge the cathode. It seems that the rocker switch was not being pushed into the 'on' position far enough, so it was always in the off position. I'll just have to remember not to switch it off... :P Fairly poor design with the switch, I have to say. Thanks for your reply anyway. Aaron Adrian Graham writes: > On 18/05/2016 18:21, "Aaron Jackson" wrote: > >> The terminal arrived today but unfortunately it doesn't power >> on. I've checked the fuse and continuity of the cable, fiddled with the >> contrast, etc. It doesn't do anything, not even a self test. The >> terminal is completely silent, not even a transformer humming. >> >> I have contacted the seller, but if anyone has any suggestions about >> what might be the issue, please let me know. >> >> Thanks all, >> >> Aaron > > The power switch at the front was notorious for breaking because it's a > left/right slider and people got too 'energetic'. The terminal should show > either 'keyboard error 4' if one isn't connected or 'VT420 OK' in a box in > the centre of the screen if one is, as well as a beep. Make sure the power > switch does slide cleanly from left (off) to right. > > Mind, if you've just bought this you'll not be wanting to take it to bits. I > would, but that's because we as a company used to fix them. -- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 13:44:34 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 11:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, John Willis wrote: > Let's not forget that the bulk of the Apple Lisa operating system and > at least large parts of the original Macintosh system software were also > implemented in Pascal (though IIRC hand-translated into 68k assembly > language), which was a pretty big mainstream success for proving > Pascal as suitable for developing systems software. At the time, it was sometimes interpreted differently: "Apple hired brilliant people for the project. BUT, they had so little real-world experience that they didn't even realize what a mistake it would be to write an OS in a high level language. Apple had to rewrite it in assembly for the Mac, to make it fast enough to be usable. Is Steve Jobs color blind? He keeps trying to make machines with very high resolution, but balck and white, and keeps trying to seal them off from the rest of the world." (- cHead) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 13:58:42 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 11:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > Pascal was probably the predominant applications development language on Mac > OS through the mid 1990s or so, no? Certainly all the Toolbox bindings were > originally written with the idea that people would be developing in Pascal. Windoze also used Pascal subroutine calling convention! But, the trend was on, over to using C. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed May 18 12:14:59 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 13:14:59 -0400 Subject: Surplus DEC MINC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 12:29 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> >> How quickly do you need it to be gone? I'd love to have one, but it >> might be a while until I can collect it in the UK... > > I feel like saying that 'the sooner the better'. It is not totally urgent, but > I am trying to sort things out... > > I am not going to scrap it. It can stay in my Large Machine Room until > a good home is found. But I think if somebody can collect it before you, > then they are going to get it... That's fair enough. Camiel. From scaron at diablonet.net Wed May 18 14:17:55 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 15:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 18 May 2016, Sean Caron wrote: >> Pascal was probably the predominant applications development language on >> Mac OS through the mid 1990s or so, no? Certainly all the Toolbox bindings >> were originally written with the idea that people would be developing in >> Pascal. > > Windoze also used Pascal subroutine calling convention! > > But, the trend was on, over to using C. > Really? Interesting; I did not know that. To this day I've never really made any attempts at Windows desktop application development. Did the Windows APIs also send and receive Pascal strings? I recall the conversions confounding me for a bit when I was trying to learn C and the Macintosh Toolbox concurrently as a youngster. Best, Sean From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 18 14:17:46 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 15:17:46 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> > On May 18, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 18 May 2016, John Willis wrote: >> Let's not forget that the bulk of the Apple Lisa operating system and >> at least large parts of the original Macintosh system software were also >> implemented in Pascal (though IIRC hand-translated into 68k assembly >> language), which was a pretty big mainstream success for proving >> Pascal as suitable for developing systems software. > > At the time, it was sometimes interpreted differently: > "Apple hired brilliant people for the project. BUT, they had so little real-world experience that they didn't even realize what a mistake it would be to write an OS in a high level language. What a bizarre statement, given that there was plenty of precedent for doing so very successfully. It might be a valid statement if made much more nuanced, say by talking about the slowness of the processors, or the inefficiency of the particular compilers used. But clearly there had been successful (large scale) operating systems written in high level languages well before the Mac. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 14:40:49 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 12:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> At the time, it was sometimes interpreted differently: "Apple hired >> brilliant people for the project. BUT, they had so little real-world >> experience that they didn't even realize what a mistake it would be to >> write an OS in a high level language. On Wed, 18 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > What a bizarre statement, given that there was plenty of precedent for > doing so very successfully. > It might be a valid statement if made much more nuanced, say by talking > about the slowness of the processors, or the inefficiency of the > particular compilers used. But clearly there had been successful (large > scale) operating systems written in high level languages well before the > Mac. [actually Lisa was the issue] I think that there was a general perception that microprocessors were not fast enough to function properly without hand-optimized assembly language. In those days, even games did not need "time-delay loops". But, "Moore's Law" held that it wouldn't be much longer. Just one doubling of the speed of the Lisa's hardware would have been enough to silence the speed complaints. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed May 18 15:42:31 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:42:31 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <038e4375-dbc0-2071-10b1-615e869d348c@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-18 3:40 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> At the time, it was sometimes interpreted differently: "Apple hired >>> brilliant people for the project. BUT, they had so little real-world >>> experience that they didn't even realize what a mistake it would be >>> to write an OS in a high level language. > > On Wed, 18 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: >> What a bizarre statement, given that there was plenty of precedent for >> doing so very successfully. >> It might be a valid statement if made much more nuanced, say by >> talking about the slowness of the processors, or the inefficiency of >> the particular compilers used. But clearly there had been successful >> (large scale) operating systems written in high level languages well >> before the Mac. > > [actually Lisa was the issue] > I think that there was a general perception that microprocessors were > not fast enough to function properly without hand-optimized assembly > language. That is true of some modules, like QuickDraw on the Mac. It is certainly not true generally. --Toby > In those days, even games did not need "time-delay loops". > > But, "Moore's Law" held that it wouldn't be much longer. > Just one doubling of the speed of the Lisa's hardware would have been > enough to silence the speed complaints. > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed May 18 15:43:42 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:43:42 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <02b2ef0f-d634-aaa1-d5a8-06605571fc41@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-18 3:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On May 18, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> On Wed, 18 May 2016, John Willis wrote: >>> Let's not forget that the bulk of the Apple Lisa operating system and >>> at least large parts of the original Macintosh system software were also >>> implemented in Pascal (though IIRC hand-translated into 68k assembly >>> language), which was a pretty big mainstream success for proving >>> Pascal as suitable for developing systems software. >> >> At the time, it was sometimes interpreted differently: >> "Apple hired brilliant people for the project. BUT, they had so little real-world experience that they didn't even realize what a mistake it would be to write an OS in a high level language. > > What a bizarre statement, given that there was plenty of precedent for doing so very successfully. > > It might be a valid statement if made much more nuanced, say by talking about the slowness of the processors, or the inefficiency of the particular compilers used. But clearly there had been successful (large scale) operating systems written in high level languages well before the Mac. There were very many; the Brinch Hansen book, "Classic Operating Systems" contains many examples. Some languages used before 1974 were even better suited than C to this purpose. Do people think computers didn't exist before 1974?! --Toby > > paul > > > From spc at conman.org Wed May 18 15:45:45 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:45:45 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20160518204545.GC11796@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > On Wed, 18 May 2016, John Willis wrote: > >Let's not forget that the bulk of the Apple Lisa operating system and > >at least large parts of the original Macintosh system software were also > >implemented in Pascal (though IIRC hand-translated into 68k assembly > >language), which was a pretty big mainstream success for proving > >Pascal as suitable for developing systems software. > > At the time, it was sometimes interpreted differently: > "Apple hired brilliant people for the project. BUT, they had so little > real-world experience that they didn't even realize what a mistake it > would be to write an OS in a high level language. Apple had to rewrite it > in assembly for the Mac, to make it fast enough to be usable. Is Steve > Jobs color blind? He keeps trying to make machines with very high > resolution, but balck and white, and keeps trying to seal them off from > the rest of the world." (- cHead) I thought the primary reason for the Pascal->hand assembly was more due to memory contraints (64K ROM, 128K RAM for the original Mac) than actual speed (although that too, was probably a concern). -spc From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed May 18 15:45:29 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:45:29 -0400 Subject: 'Inside Macintosh' books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-05-18 2:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Chris Hanson > wrote: >> For the original ?Inside Macintosh,? there was: >> >> 1. The prerelease looseleaf edition, sent to developers. > > I remember leafing through that edition in the summer of 1984 and > being horrified at all the Pascal-isms. I still have a copy. Most pages are dated 1983 iirc. It's entirely Pascal oriented, indeed. :-) --Toby > > -ethan > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 18 15:50:17 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 14:50:17 -0600 (MDT) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly Message-ID: I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting shame, let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: 1. Amiga 2500. I ditched it thinking I'd pick up a 3000 then never did. Ugh. It was free. They were using at some radio station where I helped them fix their PCs but then decided I wanted their Amiga (stashed in a closet) to subsidize my fee. 2. SGI Indigo R4400 with pristine KB + mouse, Maxxed RAM, and Elan. Ugh. /me bangs head against wall 3. Mac IIci with 060' accelerator. I put the accelerator in and paid $$$ for it. Darn it. That was a cool system. 4. Sun Voyager. These go for a fortune now on Ebay. I *gave* mine away. Not this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sun_Voyager This one: http://tinyurl.com/lhzjfks 5. NeXTStation Color Turbo. I got tired of the proprietary-everything and the space it was taking to keep it working and pristine. Still. I wish I hadn't sold it. 6. Mac Quadra 660AV. This was a pizzabox M68k classic mac with a video frame capture (a crappy one but still...) capability. I notice you can't really even buy classic macs on ebay anymore. There used to be scads of them. Damn... does that mean I'm old now? 7. SGI Origin 200 dual R12k 270Mhz. It's the top model Origin 200 and it had good skins etc... If I had it today it'd be running in my garage with the rest of the zoo. I had to ditch some gear to move way back when, and this box was a casualty. 8. Sharp Wizard OZ-8000 organizer. This thing rocked. I'd probably be tempted to *use* it. I got a lot of mileage out of it "back in the day". It ran on a Z80 and took AAA batteries (yes!). Plus I had (and maybe I still do) a DB9 serial interface for it. You could use it as a vt220 terminal, IIRC. 9. Atari Lynx. I had all the cool games. Like a fool I sold mine for some quick money in college to help fund a silly trip with some chick who is long gone long ago. Ugh. I'd rather have the Lynx back... 10. TRS-80 model 100. I didn't really like it that much, but nowadays it'd look cool in my collection and I have more nostalgic love for the trasheighty. Plus it takes AA batteries (I love that!). -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 18 15:55:58 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 14:55:58 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <02b2ef0f-d634-aaa1-d5a8-06605571fc41@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> <02b2ef0f-d634-aaa1-d5a8-06605571fc41@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, Toby Thain wrote: > [...] Some languages used before 1974 were even better suited than C to > this purpose. Do people think computers didn't exist before 1974?! Only the cool kids could touch them until the "personal" computers started coming along. I'm not really aware of when that took hold other than some vague sense of history around the late 1970's or early 1980's. Being that I was born in 1974, I was rather busy that year. I had to learn English so I could learn to code. Plus, there was the bother of potty training, walking, etc... That kind of thing kept me far too busy in the late 1970's. I came late to the party when I started coding around eight years old (IIRC) on my Timex Sinclair 1000. -Swift From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed May 18 16:01:18 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 14:01:18 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <0C6E0F5F-8A41-4A69-AEEC-E381C8C3DB17@eschatologist.net> On May 18, 2016, at 8:33 AM, John Willis wrote: > Let's not forget that the bulk of the Apple Lisa operating system and > at least large parts of the original Macintosh system software were also > implemented in Pascal (though IIRC hand-translated into 68k assembly > language), which was a pretty big mainstream success for proving > Pascal as suitable for developing systems software. Most of the original Mac operating system was originally written in 68K assembly, not just a hand translation of Pascal code. There were some rewrites of Pascal code from Lisa, for example the Memory Manager, but they went beyond hand translation. Lisa mostly used Clascal, the first iteration of Object Pascal that Apple hired Wirth to help design. Clascal and the Lisa Application Toolkit led directly to Object Pascal and MacApp. -- Chris From ben at bensinclair.com Wed May 18 16:03:03 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:03:03 -0500 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 3:50 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting shame, > let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: > That's a fun and depressing exercise... Here are my top items: 1. MicroPDP 11/23 2. Polymorphic 8813 3. A perfect VT105 4. Apple /// 5. Next slab... But I just got another! I had a Wizard OZ-7000 when they were new. It was fun, but the 8000 was much better, mainly because of the keyboard layout. -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 18 16:11:35 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 15:11:35 -0600 (MDT) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, Ben Sinclair wrote: > That's a fun and depressing exercise... Hee hee. I thought so, or perhaps I was just looking for company in my mock-misery :-) > 2. Polymorphic 8813 That thing looks rad. It's partially made from wood. Bonus. > 4. Apple /// Aww man! > 5. Next slab... But I just got another! Hehe, right on. Are you going to run NeXTStep or something else on it? Did you get a color framebuffer by chance? > I had a Wizard OZ-7000 when they were new. It was fun, but the 8000 was > much better, mainly because of the keyboard layout. True, but the 7000 had an interesting form factor and shape. I loved by 8000, though. -Swift From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed May 18 16:16:39 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 17:16:39 -0400 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My mom threw away my Amiga 300 when I went to college "no one was using it".... But I will always kick myself for not taking a Xerox 386 workstation when I was offered to take it from work, I used it to compile form processing applications for a salesforce of reps using GRiD laptops in doctors' offices. It had an optical mouse and hi-res for the time. Along with it I was also offered a car load of GRiD systems (8088 PLUS' I believe). Other than that I don't regret giving away or selling things, computers have a way of leaving you when they're ready to go. I kind of wish I bought a Apple 1 when I had the offer to get one cheap, before the prices went ballistic. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From ben at bensinclair.com Wed May 18 16:22:47 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:22:47 -0500 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Wed, 18 May 2016, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > 5. Next slab... But I just got another! > > Hehe, right on. Are you going to run NeXTStep or something else on it? Did > you get a color framebuffer by chance? > It's a mono turbo, so no color! I'm not that into NeXT hardware right now. I'm mainly interested in SGI and PDP-11 stuff at the moment. If I ever saw a bargain cube, I'd grab it though. I do actually have a Voyager running NeXT! I plan to install something else on it though, since I have a real NeXT machine now. That's a fun machine. I have a SCSI2SD adapter that I want to try in it, which would make it free of moving parts. I don't believe it has a fan at all. I did just sell a Macintosh Portable, so hopefully that doesn't end up on my regret list someday. I'm not too interested in old Macs, though I do have a 128k. -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 18 16:24:00 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 22:24:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <273074016.1682241.1463606640189.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe2.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > On 18 May 2016 at 22:11 Swift Griggs wrote: > > > On Wed, 18 May 2016, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > That's a fun and depressing exercise... > > Hee hee. I thought so, or perhaps I was just looking for company in my > mock-misery :-) > In my case nothing too spectacular, but I do rather wish I had kept the MIPS DECstation 5000/240. Regards Rob From g at kurico.com Wed May 18 16:43:18 2016 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:43:18 -0500 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> On Wed, 18 May 2016 14:50:17 -0600 (MDT), Swift Griggs wrote: > I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting > shame, > let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: It wasn't one I ever really possessed so technically it wasn't a throw/sell away, but it was one that got away. That as an AT&T Pixel Machines PXM900. It was at an university auction, I had already gone way over budget and I would have had to bid on the entire pallet of stuff in order to get it. I anguished, bid anyway, got outbid and declined to bid further. I immediately regretted the decision, contacted the buyer right after the auction, he told me he'd get back to me on Monday (yeah, you can see it coming). When I called on Monday, he was glowing about how much gold was in the thing and he had already scrapped it :( I still regret that decision to this day (if it wasn't already obvious). Sigh. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 18 17:00:43 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:00:43 -0600 (MDT) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> References: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, George Currie wrote: > When I called on Monday, he was glowing about how much gold was in the > thing and he had already scrapped it :( Grrr! I hate when folks do that! I don't really know why, but anytime someone talks about scrapping old kit for the gold, I get irritated. I know, it's their stuff, and they can dispose of it how they want. To me it's like buying a Stradivarius violin and scrapping it for the sprucewood. -Swift From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Wed May 18 17:05:57 2016 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 22:05:57 +0000 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> References: , <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3F9B7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Among my regret list are: 1. HP 150 and 9121D, which I traded for: 2. Macintosh Plus in perfect condition 3. 6x NeXT Cubes which I profited on heavily, but liquidated the last three at fire-sale prices. However, I at least managed to trade for a Color Turbo NeXTStation and a few peripherals 4. VAX 4000-500, which was way too big, but very fun 5. VAXstation 4000/VLC in perfect condition Of all of those, I think I'd take the HP 150 back first. That touch screen was just so fun. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 17:28:23 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 15:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <02b2ef0f-d634-aaa1-d5a8-06605571fc41@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> <02b2ef0f-d634-aaa1-d5a8-06605571fc41@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: >>>> Apple Lisa operating system . . . >>>> implemented in Pascal >>>> . . . . which was a pretty big mainstream success for proving >>>> Pascal as suitable for developing systems software. >>> "Apple hired brilliant people for the project. BUT, they had so little >>> real-world experience that they didn't even realize what a mistake it >>> would be to write an OS in a high level language. >> What a bizarre statement, given that there was plenty of precedent for >> doing so very successfully. >> particular compilers used. But clearly there had been successful (large >> scale) operating systems written in high level languages well before >> the Mac. On Wed, 18 May 2016, Toby Thain wrote: > There were very many; the Brinch Hansen book, "Classic Operating Systems" > contains many examples. Some languages used before 1974 were even better > suited than C to this purpose. > Do people think computers didn't exist before 1974?! No, those were the most fun! However, the previous exchange was about MICROCOMPUTER operating systems, specifically use of Pascal for writing the Lisa. In 1974, MOST microcomputer systems programmers were waiting on hardware delivery. Even by the time of the Lisa, microprocessors were pretty marginal for supporting an operating system written in a high level language. I'm trying to imagine a microcomputer OS written in PL/1! That might be fun! Night before last, Windoze did an unauthorized conversion of one of my machines from Win7 32 bit Home Premium to Win10 32 bit Home Premium. Most of my other PCs are XP, and the more that I used Win7, the less that I disliked it. I wanted to try the Win10 for a few weeks to see if I could learn to stand it. But, after a day of struggling with it, trying to get the configuration back into a form that could do the work that that machine has to do, I rolled it back to Win7. Bill Gates must be made into a millionaire! ($70 - $80 billion reduction (nobody seems to get it without explanation)) From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 18 17:31:55 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3F9B7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: , <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3F9B7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > 1. HP 150 and 9121D, [...] Whoa. That's a really "cute" machine. What are those drives in the front, flopticals or just cool looking 3.5" floppies ? I'm looking at this: http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/photos/hp_hp150_1.jpg -Swift From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 18 17:41:42 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 23:41:42 +0100 Subject: When is Composite Video not composite video (was: Best LCDs for retrocomputing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi folks, So, my 'new' monitor arrives today, beautifully packed and I wasted no time in testing all ports; should've brought home the monitor tester I have at work since it can generate Weird Frequencies, in fact I'll take the screen in tomorrow and hook it up. Anyhoo, all good apart from s-video which I can't test without something that outputs s-video. I know the Commodore 64 does but I haven't made up a cable for that yet, another thing on the TUIT list. Composite tested courtesy of an original Playstation and Raspberry Pi. Then I remembered that I've composite modded a Sinclair Spectrum and a ZX81 and I get no picture at all with those, like the signal is too weak for the monitor to pick up. Said pair of machines work fine on my 2008-era LCD TV though so does anyone know what the difference might be? Just because I could I hooked the Spectrum up to an Apple ][ Monitor and that works fine - http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/IMG_8839.JPG Are there variations to the PAL Composite standard? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? ------ Forwarded Message From: Adrian Graham Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 22:52:48 +0100 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Conversation: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 Subject: Re: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > Dell 2007FP- > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar scalers. In fact there was one available for ukp35 so it's now mine. I remember these monitors from a few years ago at a customer that specialised in video for aeroplanes, I used one not quite daily but remember being irked at the time that it was several button presses needed to get from VGA to DVI input, hahaha. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? ------ End of Forwarded Message From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 18 17:53:25 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 23:53:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: , <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3F9B7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <586019297.1358095.1463612005309.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > On 18 May 2016 at 23:31 Swift Griggs wrote: > > > On Wed, 18 May 2016, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > > 1. HP 150 and 9121D, [...] > > Whoa. That's a really "cute" machine. What are those drives in the front, > flopticals or just cool looking 3.5" floppies ? I'm looking at this: > > http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/photos/hp_hp150_1.jpg > I have one of these. It it a pretty ordinary 3.5" floppy as I recall. Really pleased with my example! It is just missing the printer in the top of the monitor. Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 18:17:32 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <586019297.1358095.1463612005309.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> References: , <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3F9B7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <586019297.1358095.1463612005309.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, Jarratt RMA wrote: >>> 1. HP 150 and 9121D, [...] > I have one of these. It it a pretty ordinary 3.5" floppy as I recall. Really > pleased with my example! It is just missing the printer in the top of the > monitor. There have been a few minor changes in the disks, mostly the shutters, over the years. 1) The first one that I saw did not have a shutter. I don't know whether that was intended, or merely a shortcut to try to get the first engineering samples out the door. 2) The next ones had a manual shutter. Manually slide it to open, manually slide it to close. 3) The first ones that I saw on an HP150 I think may have been "pinch" disks. If you slid the shutter open, it latched. Or, if you banged the disk on the table (which couldn't have been good for the life of the shutter latch) Some computers opened it automatically. When you took the disk out, the shutter was still open. There was a spot on the corner of the disk to "pinch" that released the shutter, and it closed. Some were labelled, "PINCH", some just had an arrow pointing to the pinch spot. 4) When automatic shutters (as used now) appeared, many of the disks still had the arrow pointing to the pinch spot. 'Course now that was "to show you which side of the disk goes into the drive". Some of the early disks had a breakout tab for write-protect, before they went to the slider. From doug at doughq.com Wed May 18 18:23:46 2016 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 09:23:46 +1000 Subject: When is Composite Video not composite video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/19/2016 8:41 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Then I remembered that I've composite modded a Sinclair Spectrum and a ZX81 > and I get no picture at all with those, like the signal is too weak for the > monitor to pick up. Said pair of machines work fine on my 2008-era LCD TV > though so does anyone know what the difference might be? > > Just because I could I hooked the Spectrum up to an Apple ][ Monitor and > that works fine - http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/IMG_8839.JPG > > Are there variations to the PAL Composite standard? > I think that the problem is probably that the Spectrum and ZX81 didn't actually comply with the standard so much as use it as a general guideline. Analogue monitors could cope, but many LCDs cant. Doug From scaron at diablonet.net Wed May 18 18:29:53 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 19:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > > I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting shame, > let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: > > 1. Amiga 2500. I ditched it thinking I'd pick up a 3000 then never did. > Ugh. It was free. They were using at some radio station where I helped > them fix their PCs but then decided I wanted their Amiga (stashed in a > closet) to subsidize my fee. > > 2. SGI Indigo R4400 with pristine KB + mouse, Maxxed RAM, and Elan. Ugh. > /me bangs head against wall > > 3. Mac IIci with 060' accelerator. I put the accelerator in and paid $$$ > for it. Darn it. That was a cool system. > > 4. Sun Voyager. These go for a fortune now on Ebay. I *gave* mine away. > Not this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sun_Voyager > This one: http://tinyurl.com/lhzjfks > > 5. NeXTStation Color Turbo. I got tired of the proprietary-everything and > the space it was taking to keep it working and pristine. Still. I wish I > hadn't sold it. > > 6. Mac Quadra 660AV. This was a pizzabox M68k classic mac with a video > frame capture (a crappy one but still...) capability. I notice you can't > really even buy classic macs on ebay anymore. There used to be scads of > them. Damn... does that mean I'm old now? > > 7. SGI Origin 200 dual R12k 270Mhz. It's the top model Origin 200 and it > had good skins etc... If I had it today it'd be running in my garage with > the rest of the zoo. I had to ditch some gear to move way back when, and > this box was a casualty. > > 8. Sharp Wizard OZ-8000 organizer. This thing rocked. I'd probably be > tempted to *use* it. I got a lot of mileage out of it "back in the day". It > ran on a Z80 and took AAA batteries (yes!). Plus I had (and maybe I still > do) a DB9 serial interface for it. You could use it as a vt220 terminal, > IIRC. > > 9. Atari Lynx. I had all the cool games. Like a fool I sold mine for some > quick money in college to help fund a silly trip with some chick who is > long gone long ago. Ugh. I'd rather have the Lynx back... > > 10. TRS-80 model 100. I didn't really like it that much, but nowadays it'd > look cool in my collection and I have more nostalgic love for the > trasheighty. Plus it takes AA batteries (I love that!). > > -Swift > Ah, man. I lost a Q660AV myself and I do miss it. That said, I'm lucky to still have my PM8500 (held together with epoxy, LOL) to salve the wound a little ... as well as a few other boxes you list. I do confess I tossed a TRS-80 Model 100 a few years back and I feel no guilt :O AFAIK an '060 accelerator was never sold for the Mac platform. Was that a real thing? I know a PPC 601 upgrade was available for the IIci as well as many nice '040 accelerators ... the Radius Rocket ... etc. Here's mine: DEC microVAX III BA23 (w/ SCSI) DEC microVAX I BA23 IBM PS/2 Mod 95 IBM PS/2 L40 SX DECpc AXP 150 PDP 11/03 Q660 AV PM 6100 AV DOS Compatible (for real!) Intergraph Series 2400 (x2) Sun Ultra 1 200e Not to mention still "interesting" stuff I cared less about ... microVAX 2000s, DECstation 5000s ... I maybe should have appreciated the Sun 3/60 more; the DECstation 2100 and 3100 ... I lost a really nice pile of spare Q-bus boards. A pile of RA72s. My RRD40. Two VR290s ... I actually traded away a BA123 cabinet once (what was I thinking?) And then all the 8-bit Apple II and Commodore 64 stuff, common PS/2 boxes, PC clones and boxes of supporting boards, cables, etc. I wish I still had it all :O Best, Sean From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed May 18 18:38:24 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 16:38:24 -0700 Subject: When is Composite Video not composite video (was: Best LCDs for retrocomputing) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FWIW, the port I have tested a lot and can vouch for is the RGB / VGA. Haven't done much with the composite. But... my Sinclair QL with composite mod (NTSC) seems to work, and I thought it used the same chips? - Ian On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > So, my 'new' monitor arrives today, beautifully packed and I wasted no time > in testing all ports; should've brought home the monitor tester I have at > work since it can generate Weird Frequencies, in fact I'll take the screen > in tomorrow and hook it up. > > Anyhoo, all good apart from s-video which I can't test without something > that outputs s-video. I know the Commodore 64 does but I haven't made up a > cable for that yet, another thing on the TUIT list. Composite tested > courtesy of an original Playstation and Raspberry Pi. > > Then I remembered that I've composite modded a Sinclair Spectrum and a ZX81 > and I get no picture at all with those, like the signal is too weak for the > monitor to pick up. Said pair of machines work fine on my 2008-era LCD TV > though so does anyone know what the difference might be? > > Just because I could I hooked the Spectrum up to an Apple ][ Monitor and > that works fine - http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/IMG_8839.JPG > > Are there variations to the PAL Composite standard? > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: Adrian Graham > Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 22:52:48 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Conversation: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 > 26.5" > LCD monitor 1920x1920 > Subject: Re: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" > LCD monitor 1920x1920 > > On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > > Dell 2007FP- > > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar > scalers. > > In fact there was one available for ukp35 so it's now mine. I remember > these > monitors from a few years ago at a customer that specialised in video for > aeroplanes, I used one not quite daily but remember being irked at the time > that it was several button presses needed to get from VGA to DVI input, > hahaha. > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Wed May 18 18:49:45 2016 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 23:49:45 +0000 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: , <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3F9B7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3FD35@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> >Whoa. That's a really "cute" machine. What are those drives in the front, >flopticals or just cool looking 3.5" floppies ? I'm looking at this: > >http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/photos/hp_hp150_1.jpg > >-Swift No, it's just a sort-of ordinary, though thick floppy drive. The one I had contained two floppy drives, and had a blue power button. I think I remember the drives being single sided. The floppy drives attached to the system unit over HP-IB, and the cable I had connected at a strange angle and was barely long enough to stack the system as depicted in the picture you linked. There were several expansion slots in the back of the system unit, and there was space in the top for a thermal printer, though I never had any cards or the printer. I got the thing from my grandmother, who had two at one time and the second one had the printer and all the software, but she had pitched it before I thought to acquire the other one. It was too bad, because the other one had a chess game that could use the touch screen that was tons of fun to play as a kid. However, the keyboard on it was one of the worst I ever experienced. The keycaps were all rectangular, and the kickstand put it up at such a steep angle that if you didn't make sure to press each key perfectly straight down, you'd accidentally push the key toward the back of the keyboard a bit and it'd get pinched and not go down far enough to register a keypress. The whole system isn't quite 100% MS-DOS compatible, so you can't boot it from any old DOS boot disk. I never had the original disks once it was actually "mine". Anyway, fun times. -Ben From pcw at mesanet.com Wed May 18 19:01:02 2016 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 17:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> References: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> Message-ID: Things I wish I had not gotten rid of... Convex computer PDP-8S Perq 1 Xerox 8010 (x5) Singer system 11 proto boards Singer 1654 calculator prototype Friden 7102 ascii terminal Intel iPSC Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 18 19:14:47 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 20:14:47 -0400 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I must be luck in that I never sold or gave away anything I regret. My problem is passing on things I should have snagged. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 18 19:19:28 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 17:19:28 -0700 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> Message-ID: <2407f7fd-ac5b-3990-99c8-e5d77551c4bd@jwsss.com> I freely admit I should have engaged in larceny at my university, as a very nice working 8/S was trashed shortly after I didn't try to leave with it. At the next school, they had two fully working IBM 1620's and a GT40 which were working and of course would have been a problem too, but they were also not saved. Though not knowing the source of the GT40 at the CHM that may in fact be it. The Microdata 3200 at the CHM came from USL, however and was saved. thanks Jim On 5/18/2016 5:01 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > Convex computer From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 18 19:09:29 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 01:09:29 +0100 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18/05/2016 21:50, Swift Griggs wrote: > > I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting shame, > let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: I can sympathise. I regret selling or giving away (or in one case lending, never to recover) these: - my first Exidy Sorcerer, with 48K, every ROM PAC and every manual I could buy, and a lot of mods, - a PDP-11/40, missing power supplies, but with a full complement of CPU cards and memory, and several interfaces, - a BBC Microcomputer, Issue 1, serial no 671; not a great machine compared to later ones I still have, but historic, - an SGI Indy which I sold for little more than the cost of shipping, - a Commodore PET 4032 (though I still have an early 2001 8K with MOS Technology RAM and ROM), - a nice VT131, a VT102, and a couple of VT220s, - a big collection of SCSI and IEEE-488 cables, and more. OTOH, I don't really have enough space for the stuff I still do have, nor enough time and energy to make it all work! -- Pete From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 18 19:33:54 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 20:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. Message-ID: <20160519003354.DAE7018C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ed Groenenberg > After hooking up the PMK05 to the unibus, the machine was powered up > with the memory card, and the 'NPG' led was on. Oh, that's truly wierd. Most memory cards don't even connect to any of the bus request/grant lines - they often have short loopbacks from each 'grant in' pin to 'grant out' - not sure about NPG because canonically, that is jumpered through on the backplane. A couple of things to check: First, does that memory even have traces connected to the NPR/NPG-in/NPG-out pins? Second, does a different, known working card, provoke any problems in that slot? (E.g. your serial interface card?) I'm wondering if the problem is the slot, not the card. Noel From jsw at ieee.org Wed May 18 19:35:44 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 19:35:44 -0500 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3F9B7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3F9B7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <1C170C6B-BA84-4A46-82FC-25C3578A7B3A@ieee.org> I am not sure I should read any more of this thread just before I head out to the Dayton Hamvention (http://hamvention.org). I no longer want to bring anything to put up for sale. I may need to have the spouse take away my wallet. Thought the amount and quality of vintage computers has been on the decline over the years, you still never know what ?I really deserve that? item will show up in the flea market. Jerry > On May 18, 2016, at 5:05 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > > Among my regret list are: > > 1. HP 150 and 9121D, which I traded for: > 2. Macintosh Plus in perfect condition > 3. 6x NeXT Cubes which I profited on heavily, but liquidated the last three at fire-sale prices. However, I at least managed to trade for a Color Turbo NeXTStation and a few peripherals > 4. VAX 4000-500, which was way too big, but very fun > 5. VAXstation 4000/VLC in perfect condition > > Of all of those, I think I'd take the HP 150 back first. That touch screen was just so fun. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed May 18 20:04:24 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 13:04:24 +1200 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <1C170C6B-BA84-4A46-82FC-25C3578A7B3A@ieee.org> References: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3F9B7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <1C170C6B-BA84-4A46-82FC-25C3578A7B3A@ieee.org> Message-ID: Yes, sometimes these things are thrown away in ignorance. Before I got into the hobby I junked a 40 track, SS Tandon drive because I figured something had broken. Now I know more, I'm sure it was just dirty heads from using degraded disks. Something a minute or two with a wet q-tip would have fixed! Terry (Tez) From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed May 18 22:54:13 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 22:54:13 -0500 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160519035413.GB4727@gmail.com> On Wed, May 18, 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > > I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting shame, > let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: I guess I don't have too much to regret yet. The things I regret getting rid of: 1. My family's first Commodore PET 8032, back in 1988 or so. Strangely I miss the books more than the system, though, perhaps because I have another system like it now. It was great to see one of the books I missed most from that set a few years ago at a friend's house; I gave him $5 for it. It was available on Bombjack, but I had no idea what it was called or how to find it. Anyway, the 8032 thrown on the curb was working except for some keyboard keys, and had a nice LQ daisywheel printer and an 8050 dual floppy drive. Both worked AFAIK, except that one time I apparently sent a control code to the printer that switched it to real ASCII, and I could never get it back to PETSCII even with a power cycle. My new 8032 worked perfectly, including the keys, in the late 1990s when I got it, but has stopped powering on now. 2. My NES and SNES with a fairly good number of games, plus a Super Advantage. I don't know what specific revisions the consoles were, but they didn't look like the later redesigns. I reasoned that emulating games was not only good enough but better, because I could pause, rewind, and fast-forward them. 3. My first Intel PC, a GHC EasyData 486SX/25. If I had known EasyData was so uncommon I probably would have kept it. It was no speed demon, even after I put the OverDrive and 24 MB (I think it was) in it, but it was a big step up from 8-bits. 4. Various systems I got to see only a few times at my dad's work, when they liquidated the company a few years after he died. I was interested in the Sun workstations and to a lesser extent the Harris mini (not sure what kind). But I would have been even less equipped to deal with them (especially the big metal) than I am now. -- Eric Christopherson From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Wed May 18 23:30:25 2016 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 06:30:25 +0200 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <20160519035413.GB4727@gmail.com> References: <20160519035413.GB4727@gmail.com> Message-ID: <573D4161.4040900@bluewin.ch> - Gave away a PDP 8/F for free - Sold a Tektronix 31 which I now regret. - Did not take a free Apollo DN10000 and an also free PDP11/44, both because of space constraints. - Had to leave around 7 Philips P856/P857 minis in the trash, only kept one and the core memories of the others But then we all have our stories.. Jos From pete at petelancashire.com Wed May 18 16:14:00 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 14:14:00 -0700 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >4. Sun Voyager. Friend who retired from Sun had a couple of them. Offered me one. *bash* *bash* *bash* At least I kept the prototype Sun 1 -pete On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting shame, > let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: > > 1. Amiga 2500. I ditched it thinking I'd pick up a 3000 then never did. > Ugh. It was free. They were using at some radio station where I helped > them fix their PCs but then decided I wanted their Amiga (stashed in a > closet) to subsidize my fee. > > 2. SGI Indigo R4400 with pristine KB + mouse, Maxxed RAM, and Elan. Ugh. > /me bangs head against wall > > 3. Mac IIci with 060' accelerator. I put the accelerator in and paid $$$ > for it. Darn it. That was a cool system. > > 4. Sun Voyager. These go for a fortune now on Ebay. I *gave* mine away. > Not this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sun_Voyager > This one: http://tinyurl.com/lhzjfks > > 5. NeXTStation Color Turbo. I got tired of the proprietary-everything and > the space it was taking to keep it working and pristine. Still. I wish I > hadn't sold it. > > 6. Mac Quadra 660AV. This was a pizzabox M68k classic mac with a video > frame capture (a crappy one but still...) capability. I notice you can't > really even buy classic macs on ebay anymore. There used to be scads of > them. Damn... does that mean I'm old now? > > 7. SGI Origin 200 dual R12k 270Mhz. It's the top model Origin 200 and it > had good skins etc... If I had it today it'd be running in my garage with > the rest of the zoo. I had to ditch some gear to move way back when, and > this box was a casualty. > > 8. Sharp Wizard OZ-8000 organizer. This thing rocked. I'd probably be > tempted to *use* it. I got a lot of mileage out of it "back in the day". It > ran on a Z80 and took AAA batteries (yes!). Plus I had (and maybe I still > do) a DB9 serial interface for it. You could use it as a vt220 terminal, > IIRC. > > 9. Atari Lynx. I had all the cool games. Like a fool I sold mine for some > quick money in college to help fund a silly trip with some chick who is > long gone long ago. Ugh. I'd rather have the Lynx back... > > 10. TRS-80 model 100. I didn't really like it that much, but nowadays it'd > look cool in my collection and I have more nostalgic love for the > trasheighty. Plus it takes AA batteries (I love that!). > > -Swift > From pete at petelancashire.com Wed May 18 17:32:00 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 15:32:00 -0700 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> References: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> Message-ID: AH yea.. the gold scrappers don't get me going .... Brand new "NIB" Minuteman I D-17 computer section, the whole thing in a wooden crate. Even had the white exterior panels, remember them each had "Warning Magnesium" stamped on the inside. Was around 1985. Offered $100 about 2 x scrap, he said he would think about it.. came back a couple days later, yep .. scrapped for the $20 of gold it may of had in it I was able to salvage the disk memory .. still have it, can be seen in the Wikipedia picture Everytime I see it I get pissed. It would have made a cool living room table ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-17B#/media/File:Autonetics_D-17.JPG On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 2:43 PM, George Currie wrote: > On Wed, 18 May 2016 14:50:17 -0600 (MDT), Swift Griggs > wrote: >> >> I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting shame, >> let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: > > > It wasn't one I ever really possessed so technically it wasn't a throw/sell > away, but it was one that got away. > > That as an AT&T Pixel Machines PXM900. It was at an university auction, I > had already gone way over budget and I would have had to bid on the entire > pallet of stuff in order to get it. I anguished, bid anyway, got outbid and > declined to bid further. I immediately regretted the decision, contacted > the buyer right after the auction, he told me he'd get back to me on Monday > (yeah, you can see it coming). When I called on Monday, he was glowing > about how much gold was in the thing and he had already scrapped it :( > > I still regret that decision to this day (if it wasn't already obvious). > > Sigh. > From cramcram at gmail.com Wed May 18 17:53:47 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 15:53:47 -0700 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> References: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> Message-ID: I'd love to get one of those (PXM9XX). I designed the video card and the active backplane. I had to route all the ECL data paths by hand as there were no automated tools for that at the time. That beast was built in an amazingly short period of time, about 8-9 months as I recall. The DSP32 processors in there had gold plated pins on the bottom as well as gold plated pads on the topside of each PGA. You could probe signals from the top of the board which was really handy. Marc On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 2:43 PM, George Currie wrote: > On Wed, 18 May 2016 14:50:17 -0600 (MDT), Swift Griggs < > swiftgriggs at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting shame, >> let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: >> > > It wasn't one I ever really possessed so technically it wasn't a > throw/sell away, but it was one that got away. > > That as an AT&T Pixel Machines PXM900. It was at an university auction, I > had already gone way over budget and I would have had to bid on the entire > pallet of stuff in order to get it. I anguished, bid anyway, got outbid > and declined to bid further. I immediately regretted the decision, > contacted the buyer right after the auction, he told me he'd get back to me > on Monday (yeah, you can see it coming). When I called on Monday, he was > glowing about how much gold was in the thing and he had already scrapped it > :( > > I still regret that decision to this day (if it wasn't already obvious). > > Sigh. > From mark at matlockfamily.com Wed May 18 21:54:52 2016 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 21:54:52 -0500 Subject: Surplus DEC MINC Message-ID: <1D8D057C-5706-4931-A565-0D933FD99B48@MatlockFamily.com> Tony, Too bad your MINC is so far from me. I would love to have the spare parts and RL01s to assist in my MINC restoration. I would like to collaborate with who ever gets your MINC. Some other kind souls on this list have helped me with copies of the Lab Subroutine Package software and Scientific Subroutine Package software for MINC. I have my MINC-23 running with a 11/23 CPU and an Emulex UC07 / SCSI2SD so I can transfer RT-11 software from various internet web sites to a microSD card and run from it. I had to upgrade my BDV-11 with new EPROMs to boot a DU device (Thanks to Malcom McLeod for the EPROM images!) I have used both RSX11M (not plus as it is an 18 bit system) and RT-11 on different SD cards and it runs both fine. I currently have the A/D, Digital Output, and Digital Input modules all working with Macro-11 code I wrote but am having trouble getting the MINC clock to work as it appears to have a different CSR format than the LPS-11 or KWV-11C. A user's guide for it would be greatly appreciated. The MINC-11 engineering drawings have been scanned and are certainly helpful. Also, anyone trying to connect to the DB9 terminal blocks for the DLV-11J should be aware that the pin out is NOT the common DB9 RS232 pin out. It takes a special DB9 to DB25 cable DEC provided or some wiring experimentation with an RS232 breakout box. The engineering drawings do document the connections however. Best regards, Mark Matlock > From: tony duell > To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Subject: Surplus DEC MINC > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I have a DEC MINC that I don't _really_ need and wonder if anyone is > interested. > > It's the hard disk model. A half-height rack containing a pair of RL01s > and a power controller with the MINC CPU box bolted on top. It > contains the normal cards : > PDP11/03 CPU > M8044 memory (30kW IIRC) > DLV11-J (4 RS232 ports) > IBV11 (IEEE-488 interface) > RLV11 > Some parallel printer interface (LPV11?) > BDV11 (Bootstrap/terminator) > > And 7 MINC modules : > MNCAA (ADC) > MNCAD (DAC) > 2 off MNCDI (16 bit digital input) > 2 off MNCDO (16 bit digital output) > MNCKW (clock generator) > > Bad points : > > It is untested, assume it needs repair (but the boards, etc are intact) > I would recomend doing electrical safety tests before applying mains! > > No connector blocks for the MINC modules > > No disk packs (but I might be able to find some) > > No terminal or cable (but not hard to sort something out) > > It could do wth cleaning (if you spin up the drives they will almost > certainly headcrash). But no smoking near it ever. > > It MUST BE COLLECTED from me (SE London, near Bromley, not too far > from M25). There is no way I can ship it. I will help dismantle it into > units and load it into your car/van (I think it will all go in an estate > car). > > Good point > > It's free. I do not want any money for it. > > I want it to go to somebody who will make use of it (either restore it, put it > on display, or use it for spare parts for PDP11s), not somebody who wants > to raid the gold from the edge connectors. > > -tony From craig at solomonson.net Wed May 18 22:52:35 2016 From: craig at solomonson.net (Craig Solomonson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 22:52:35 -0500 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3F9B7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: , <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3F9B7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <3266c2e526cd6da1e22bf83732fc1959.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> My regret list is quite long but at the top are: 1. Three Apple 1 computers including one in the box with all the extras and a personal letter from Steve Jobs telling what keyboard to use with it. 2. A working Bendix G-15 that was in my classroom in the early 1970's. 3. A working Burroughs B-3300 4. A Univac Short Code manual from 1952 And soon I can add to the list my entire collection as it is moving to a new home next month. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu May 19 00:17:09 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 05:17:09 +0000 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <20160519035413.GB4727@gmail.com> References: , <20160519035413.GB4727@gmail.com> Message-ID: About 10 ISC (Intecolor) 19" color computers, set them on the curb for the trash. These were 2MHz 8080 computers, wit a modified MS Basic in them. MY company (USDATA) sold these as realtime industrial control terminals for use with Programmable Logic Controllers. We modified the Basic, trapping 'syntax error' and jumped to our code that would parse new statements we added for PLC communications, reading and or writing to PLC memory. Most were working, I got tired of hauling them around. I should have kept one or two. Randy ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Christopherson Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 8:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly On Wed, May 18, 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > > I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting shame, > let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: I guess I don't have too much to regret yet. The things I regret getting rid of: 1. My family's first Commodore PET 8032, back in 1988 or so. Strangely I miss the books more than the system, though, perhaps because I have another system like it now. It was great to see one of the books I missed most from that set a few years ago at a friend's house; I gave him $5 for it. It was available on Bombjack, but I had no idea what it was called or how to find it. Anyway, the 8032 thrown on the curb was working except for some keyboard keys, and had a nice LQ daisywheel printer and an 8050 dual floppy drive. Both worked AFAIK, except that one time I apparently sent a control code to the printer that switched it to real ASCII, and I could never get it back to PETSCII even with a power cycle. My new 8032 worked perfectly, including the keys, in the late 1990s when I got it, but has stopped powering on now. 2. My NES and SNES with a fairly good number of games, plus a Super Advantage. I don't know what specific revisions the consoles were, but they didn't look like the later redesigns. I reasoned that emulating games was not only good enough but better, because I could pause, rewind, and fast-forward them. 3. My first Intel PC, a GHC EasyData 486SX/25. If I had known EasyData was so uncommon I probably would have kept it. It was no speed demon, even after I put the OverDrive and 24 MB (I think it was) in it, but it was a big step up from 8-bits. 4. Various systems I got to see only a few times at my dad's work, when they liquidated the company a few years after he died. I was interested in the Sun workstations and to a lesser extent the Harris mini (not sure what kind). But I would have been even less equipped to deal with them (especially the big metal) than I am now. -- Eric Christopherson From ed at groenenberg.net Thu May 19 00:53:17 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 07:53:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. In-Reply-To: <20160519003354.DAE7018C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160519003354.DAE7018C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <16897.212.115.168.185.1463637197.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Thu, May 19, 2016 02:33, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ed Groenenberg > > > After hooking up the PMK05 to the unibus, the machine was powered up > > with the memory card, and the 'NPG' led was on. > > Oh, that's truly wierd. Most memory cards don't even connect to any of the > bus request/grant lines - they often have short loopbacks from each 'grant > in' pin to 'grant out' - not sure about NPG because canonically, that is > jumpered through on the backplane. > > A couple of things to check: First, does that memory even have traces > connected to the NPR/NPG-in/NPG-out pins? Second, does a different, known > working card, provoke any problems in that slot? (E.g. your serial > interface > card?) I'm wondering if the problem is the slot, not the card. > > Noel > Yes, it does indeed to appear as weird. The memory card has a trace to continue the NPR line (like the little wire on the backplane). The card should be okay as it was the original card. I changed it for another meory cards (same type), and it has the same problem. I can indeed put the memory card in slot 5 and move the DL11 to slot 4 and see if still allows me to send a character to it (with or without the memory in place). I wish I had the documentation of the PMK05, the 2 sheets I have are just a snippet of information. Ed Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Thu May 19 01:24:13 2016 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 22:24:13 -0800 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com > Sent: Wed, 18 May 2016 14:50:17 -0600 (MDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly > > > I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting shame, > let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: I also have led a life of Classic Computer Regret & Sorrow: 1. Apple Quadra 840av. The sweetest Mac I've ever owned. Sorely missed. LIkely stolen. 2. VaxStation 4000/90. Had two. These were probably thrown away. 3. NCR Tower 1632. Ran an early SYSV, I had the install tapes too. 4. HP Intergral - Lost when the basement flooded 5. SwTPc 6800's - Both machines lost in the above flood 6. Smoke Signal Broadcasting 9512 - This was a 6809 running OS/9. Sold it because "I have enough SS-50 boxes already". 7. PDP-11/73 - Another one likely thrown away. 8. PDP-11/23+ - Hardware test bed, I was using it to work on my RL02 drive. Flood victim. 9. Commodore 128D - complete with keyboard, built like a tank. By the time they drained the basement, it was likely a rusted pile of junk. Most of these I either got free, or for very little money. I see the prices fetched for these systems today, and I can do little but shake my head and be glad for what I still have.... ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth From jws at jwsss.com Thu May 19 01:50:12 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 23:50:12 -0700 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> Message-ID: <7ca114ff-b47c-5ecf-76cc-d171dc97df1f@jwsss.com> I may have access to one. I do have the disk drive for sure. Actually on D-17, and a I think a spare set of boards. Not eyeballed it though. On 5/18/2016 3:32 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Brand new "NIB" Minuteman I D-17 computer section, the whole thing in > a wooden crate. > > Even had the white exterior panels, remember them each had "Warning > Magnesium" stamped on the inside. Was around 1985. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu May 19 07:34:39 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 14:34:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Seeking OS for Altos 486 S1000 Message-ID: Hi, I was given an Altos 486 Series 1000, and albeit its name sounds promising, it's not the classic Z80 based Altos 486, but a modern UNIX machine with i486 processor (non-PC architecture) from around 1992. Problem: no tapes, no hard disk (was removed as it contained sensitive data). Has someone by any chance have images of the OS (don't know whether they are on QIC tapes or on 5.25" floppies) ? OS should be some AT&T UNIX called Altos System V. Christian From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu May 19 09:00:07 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 09:00:07 -0500 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <20160519035413.GB4727@gmail.com> References: <20160519035413.GB4727@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 10:54 PM, Eric Christopherson < echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, May 18, 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > > > > I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting shame, > > let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: > > I guess I don't have too much to regret yet. The things I regret getting > rid of: > I thought of the most recent one, probably about a year ago. It was before I had gotten into this community and thereby had my horizons broadened; so at the time all I cared about was working Commodore, Sun, and NeXT stuff, with maybe a little SGI interest. It was a local Craigslist posting I saw: Harris 800 super-mini computer circuit boards - $1 (Janesville) 4 full sets of working circuit boards for the Harris 800 super-mini computer, including CPU. Like I said, I didn't care much about getting non-working stuff (or stuff that would only work if I had a whole super-mini to put it in), but because it was Harris (which I previously mentioned wanting) I was sort of interested. But I never called; was worried about the size of the collection and the actual price (not really $1 I assume). I finally called a few months ago but just left a voicemail, which was never returned. I called the number again just now to see if the set had in fact been sold or given away, and got an actual human. I asked if the boards were gone and she said yes, and I said did someone actually take them, and she said yes. Not a really chatty person. I'm kicking myself for not asking where they came from in the first place, but I feel like if I called back now with that question I'd seem like a pain in the butt. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 19 09:12:50 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 08:12:50 -0600 (MDT) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > Ah, man. I lost a Q660AV myself and I do miss it. That said, I'm lucky > to still have my PM8500 (held together with epoxy, LOL) to salve the > wound a little ... I would have probably kept it if it was a 840AV. I liked that machine a bit more, but now I'd probably get something capable of running A/UX. Of course, since classic macs have a big cult following and they aren't on Ebay anymore, I'll probably just keep my memories and call it good. > as well as a few other boxes you list. I do confess I tossed a TRS-80 > Model 100 a few years back and I feel no guilt :O hehehe. They were cool looking (and they took AA's!) but they had a clunky interface. There are a lot of sites out there with model 100 info nowadays, though. > AFAIK an '060 accelerator was never sold for the Mac platform. Was that > a real thing? It's been a while now, I can't remember. If you say so, I believe it. It musta been a 040 or something. I think it was from Presto. > I know a PPC 601 upgrade was available for the IIci as well as many nice > '040 accelerators ... the Radius Rocket ... etc. It was definitely still a M68k based card, I remember that. I also remember it didn't have any kind of extra RAM or SCSI controller (which I kinda wanted but could not afford). > DEC microVAX III BA23 (w/ SCSI) > DEC microVAX I BA23 I think thre is a DEC microVAX II still sitting powered down in a corner here at my office. > IBM PS/2 Mod 95 Ugh. That thing is yuuuuge. There is only so much PS/2 I can take. I prefer the small/cute workstations. > IBM PS/2 L40 SX Whoa. A PS/2 laptop. I never even knew there was such a beast. Plus it's got an interesting shape and keyboard. Huh. > PM 6100 AV DOS Compatible (for real!) Bizzare. Did it have some kind of PC card inside? > Intergraph Series 2400 (x2) I always wanted to play with an Intergraph box. I was too busy obsessing over SGI's boxes, though. > a BA123 cabinet once (what was I thinking?) What in the world is this thing? You call it a cabinet but it looks just like the MicroVAX II I just mentioned. Is it some kind of fancy case upgrade for a VAX ? -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 19 09:25:33 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 08:25:33 -0600 (MDT) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2016, Pete Turnbull wrote: > - my first Exidy Sorcerer, with 48K, every ROM PAC and every manual I > could buy, and a lot of mods, Those look really cool. I remember seeing them in computer mags when I was uhhh, 7 or 8 years old. Drooled. > - an SGI Indy which I sold for little more than the cost of shipping, I still have 2 Indys. One R4600/200 and one R5000/180. I also have a Challenge S with an R4600 in it. These are easy to warehouse, but I probably need to hoard up some Dallas clock modules for them, since they often go bad and lose their MAC. > - a nice VT131, a VT102, and a couple of VT220s, Hmm, I always thought the "paper white" terminals were the neatest of the monochrome terminal ilk, but I'm not sure if any DEC VTs were ever made that way. > - a big collection of SCSI and IEEE-488 cables, Oh man, I threw away a bunch of serial and SCSI cables at one point only to have to buy the same ones again years later. Ugh. > OTOH, I don't really have enough space for the stuff I still do have, > nor enough time and energy to make it all work! Agreed. I have some dream of building a nice man-cave with individual 2-3 workstations setup at any given time for me to tinker on and a full bench off to the side to work-on/fix stuff. However, then I wake up in suburbia and remember how much the price per sq/ft is, now that real estate is back in the stratosphere. -Swift From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 19 09:30:25 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 16:30:25 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. In-Reply-To: <16897.212.115.168.185.1463637197.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <20160519003354.DAE7018C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <16897.212.115.168.185.1463637197.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: 2016-05-19 7:53 GMT+02:00 E. Groenenberg : > > On Thu, May 19, 2016 02:33, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Ed Groenenberg > > > > > After hooking up the PMK05 to the unibus, the machine was powered > up > > > with the memory card, and the 'NPG' led was on. > > > > Oh, that's truly wierd. Most memory cards don't even connect to any of > the > > bus request/grant lines - they often have short loopbacks from each > 'grant > > in' pin to 'grant out' - not sure about NPG because canonically, that is > > jumpered through on the backplane. > > > > A couple of things to check: First, does that memory even have traces > > connected to the NPR/NPG-in/NPG-out pins? Second, does a different, known > > working card, provoke any problems in that slot? (E.g. your serial > > interface > > card?) I'm wondering if the problem is the slot, not the card. > > > > Noel > > > > Yes, it does indeed to appear as weird. > The memory card has a trace to continue the NPR line (like the little > wire on the backplane). The card should be okay as it was the original > card. > I changed it for another meory cards (same type), and it has the same > problem. I can indeed put the memory card in slot 5 and move the DL11 to > slot 4 and see if still allows me to send a character to it (with or > without > the memory in place). > > I wish I had the documentation of the PMK05, the 2 sheets I have are just > a snippet of information. > > Ed > > Since you have a 11/34 I guess that you have a programmer's console (you maybe mentioned it earlier on). What I did when checking out a 11/04 was to follow this nice article by J?rg Hoppe: http://www.retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-1134-programmers-console . Use the M7859 and console only on the bus, just to minimise the number of devices on the bus that could cause trouble. In maintenance mode you could check the memory and serial ports etc stand alone, moving them between different slots etc. /Mattis From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 19 09:40:55 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 08:40:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2016, N0body H0me wrote: > 1. Apple Quadra 840av. The sweetest Mac I've ever owned. > Sorely missed. LIkely stolen. Yes, this was the king daddy M68k classic-mac, IMHO. > 3. NCR Tower 1632. Ran an early SYSV, I had the install tapes > too. I wanted one of those. I saw them at several customer sites in the 90's and I thought they were a bit bean-counterish, but still cool. > 5. SwTPc 6800's - Both machines lost in the above flood Whoa. Bizarre. That thing has a huge power supply for a machine that size. There is also massive capacitor in there (I think that's what that is). I'm pro/for/cheerleader for any kind of computer that looks like stereo equipment. I've always wanted a machine with Vue meters for CPU and RAM capacity :-) http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_P/M6809/6809_side.jpg > 6. Smoke Signal Broadcasting 9512 - This was a 6809 running OS/9. > Sold it because "I have enough SS-50 boxes already". Another 70's "made outta wood" box. Shame I wasn't old enough to appreciate all those. > 9. Commodore 128D - complete with keyboard, built like a tank. > By the time they drained the basement, it was likely a rusted > pile of junk. Those were awesome. I was so jealous of friends/cousins who had them. My cousin had some C64 game that had enhancements for the 128. It was little wizards running around teleporting through pentagrams and shooting fireballs at little devil dogs. I can't remember the name, but it rocked on the 128. I remember playing that and being in awe of the 128 (hey, I was probably 10 or so). -Swift From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu May 19 11:10:43 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 11:10:43 -0500 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 3:50 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > I've stack-ranked all the classic items that I, to my everlasting shame, > let go of at some point and now I feel like it was a mistake: > > 1. Amiga 2500. I ditched it thinking I'd pick up a 3000 then never did. > Ugh. It was free. They were using at some radio station where I helped > them fix their PCs but then decided I wanted their Amiga (stashed in a > closet) to subsidize my fee. > > 2. SGI Indigo R4400 with pristine KB + mouse, Maxxed RAM, and Elan. Ugh. > /me bangs head against wall > > 3. Mac IIci with 060' accelerator. I put the accelerator in and paid $$$ > for it. Darn it. That was a cool system. > > 4. Sun Voyager. These go for a fortune now on Ebay. I *gave* mine away. > Not this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sun_Voyager > This one: http://tinyurl.com/lhzjfks > > 5. NeXTStation Color Turbo. I got tired of the proprietary-everything and > the space it was taking to keep it working and pristine. Still. I wish I > hadn't sold it. > > 6. Mac Quadra 660AV. This was a pizzabox M68k classic mac with a video > frame capture (a crappy one but still...) capability. I notice you can't > really even buy classic macs on ebay anymore. There used to be scads of > them. Damn... does that mean I'm old now? > > 7. SGI Origin 200 dual R12k 270Mhz. It's the top model Origin 200 and it > had good skins etc... If I had it today it'd be running in my garage with > the rest of the zoo. I had to ditch some gear to move way back when, and > this box was a casualty. > > 8. Sharp Wizard OZ-8000 organizer. This thing rocked. I'd probably be > tempted to *use* it. I got a lot of mileage out of it "back in the day". It > ran on a Z80 and took AAA batteries (yes!). Plus I had (and maybe I still > do) a DB9 serial interface for it. You could use it as a vt220 terminal, > IIRC. > > 9. Atari Lynx. I had all the cool games. Like a fool I sold mine for some > quick money in college to help fund a silly trip with some chick who is > long gone long ago. Ugh. I'd rather have the Lynx back... > > 10. TRS-80 model 100. I didn't really like it that much, but nowadays it'd > look cool in my collection and I have more nostalgic love for the > trasheighty. Plus it takes AA batteries (I love that!). > > -Swift > That's a pretty good list. I agree with you on the Atari Lynx. I miss mine as well...bought it brand new and ended up buying about 21 games for it for dirt cheap when they started clearancing them off (most games I paid $2-6 for brand-new at Kay Bee Toy Store). Other than that: 1. Amiga 3000 2. Tandy 1000HX Most everything else I remember fondly but don't have any particular feeling I need to go back. From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu May 19 11:12:31 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 11:12:31 -0500 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:10 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > > > That's a pretty good list. I agree with you on the Atari Lynx. I miss mine > as well...bought it brand new and ended up buying about 21 games for it for > dirt cheap when they started clearancing them off (most games I paid $2-6 > for brand-new at Kay Bee Toy Store). Other than that: > > 1. Amiga 3000 > 2. Tandy 1000HX > > Most everything else I remember fondly but don't have any particular > feeling I need to go back. > Gah! Spoke too soon, I'd also like to have one of the few Amiga 1000s back and also a DEC Pro/350 that my Uncle gave me when it became obsolete for him. From scaron at diablonet.net Thu May 19 11:31:27 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 12:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > >> DEC microVAX III BA23 (w/ SCSI) >> DEC microVAX I BA23 > > I think thre is a DEC microVAX II still sitting powered down in a corner > here at my office. > I got lucky on the list maybe a year ago and Bob Rosenbloom helped me get my Q-bus VAX itch scratched again ... I've got a microVAX III+ now and a microVAX III as well. I've done a pretty good job of rebuilding my stash of Q-bus spares ... but I'm still down a SCSI board and I've never seen another microVAX I around... Ah, well, the KA655 is more functional ;) > >> IBM PS/2 Mod 95 > > Ugh. That thing is yuuuuge. There is only so much PS/2 I can take. I > prefer the small/cute workstations. > I loved this box and it was the only desktop PS/2 (really, the only Intel x86-based machine) I had ever intended to really preserve as an exhibit. It had the P60 processor complex (with FDIV bug!) and I had just totally loaded it down with all my best MCA finds accrued over the years. XGA-2, dual SCSI buses, dual Ethernet, Token Ring, etc. I even found a MCA FDDI card I had intended to install in the machine, but never got round to it. OS/2 would drive the little front panel LCD in a cool way. Probably won't have the chance to get another one without paying mad money these days. Now, huge was the PC Server 500! ;) > >> IBM PS/2 L40 SX > > Whoa. A PS/2 laptop. I never even knew there was such a beast. Plus it's > got an interesting shape and keyboard. Huh. > It was a neat little thing and it had probably the best laptop keyboard I have ever used. Just awesome. It sat in the trunk of my car for years and got carelessly chucked out during a clean-out. I miss it now ... it was just about the perfect vintage for a DOS box for a number of applications and it was rock-solid, too. Arg. > >> PM 6100 AV DOS Compatible (for real!) > > Bizzare. Did it have some kind of PC card inside? > Yeah, this one was a custom build using a PM6100av as a base, with the 486 DOS card out of a 6100 DOS Compatible that I scrapped out. It was a tight fit, but it all worked! Fun little novelty for the time ;) I still have a (plain) PM6100 DOS Compatible (with dead PSU) and also a PDS Reply 486 DOS card for the Quadra 800 ... I haven't been able to get either one of them working again, to my chagrin ... I'm still working on it. It's tricky to line up just the right version of the System with the right version of the DOS card software. > >> Intergraph Series 2400 (x2) > > I always wanted to play with an Intergraph box. I was too busy obsessing > over SGI's boxes, though. > The primary value in these to me was that they were built on the rather obscure Clipper CPU. I never was able to use them because I didn't have a monitor, keyboard and mouse and there wasn't enough documentation around to even figure out if and how to use a serial console with them ... my recollection is that Intergraph was not very hobbyist-frendly. I never had any CLIX media and no other OS ever supported them. I do wish I still had an example of a Clipper CPU (and I pop up and look for them occasionally) but to make up for it, karma gave me a cheap MVME181 a few years back so I suppose my collection is down one strange RISC chip and up another ;) > >> a BA123 cabinet once (what was I thinking?) > > What in the world is this thing? You call it a cabinet but it looks just > like the MicroVAX II I just mentioned. Is it some kind of fancy case > upgrade for a VAX ? > Oh, just an empty BA123 enclosure ... no boards or drives but otherwise complete with Q-bus backplane, PSU, console bulkhead ... pic here: http://www.netbsd.org/images/machines/vax/microvax2-ba123.jpg The guts were the aforementioned lost microVAX III ... I had moved the cards and disk into a smaller BA23 cabinet so it took up less space and used less power ... I was running it fairly regularly at the time ;) Best, Sean From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 19 12:07:40 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 13:07:40 -0400 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > ...I've never seen another microVAX I around... Ah, well, the KA655 is more functional ;) I have a MicroVAX I... it's more of a curiosity than anything. Quite limited. We bought two when they first came out and upgraded one (full price, $17K ISTR) to a MicroVAX II. The enhanced one was used for product development and a few other things. The unenhanced one was our hardware test box so if one of our boards under test was so broken that it damaged the host (that did happen once or twice), it was cheaper to get back into service. I should go fire that box up and see if the hard drive has stiction (odds are good). -ethan From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 19 12:53:45 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 11:53:45 -0600 (MDT) Subject: MSA & HSZ batteries - AA NIMH trick-swap available? Message-ID: Has anyone ever found a way to beat HP at their game of putting ridiculously low-quality proprietary batteries on their RAID controllers? I had no end to trouble with HSZ batteries dying back in the day. Nowadays I still have an old MSA1000 with similar looking batteries. The part numbers are 401026-001 (right) & 401027-001 (left). Has anyone ever seen some kind of caddy or carrier that can replace these ? They are very oddball in shape. They clip onto the boards with plastic friction shields. However, there is greater clearance on the MSA1000 controller board than is needed for these batteries. Since it's 4.8v I'd love to replace this with qty=4 1.2v NIMH AA or AAA batteries. They'd probably last longer anyway. There is nothing magical or special about these battery packs, correct? If I find something mechanically workable and with matching voltage can I not use that as a replacement? I really don't care if I have to solder it on. The folks who sell replacements for these online tend to not say if they are new, used, tested, etc... I don't trust them enough to send them $40-$120 for the replacement. -Swift From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 19 13:11:47 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 19:11:47 +0100 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19/05/2016 18:07, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Sean Caron wrote: >> ...I've never seen another microVAX I around... Ah, well, the KA655 is more >> functional ;) > > I have a MicroVAX I... it's more of a curiosity than anything. Quite > limited. We bought two when they first came out and upgraded one > (full price, $17K ISTR) to a MicroVAX II. The enhanced one was used > for product development and a few other things. The unenhanced one > was our hardware test box so if one of our boards under test was so > broken that it damaged the host (that did happen once or twice), it > was cheaper to get back into service. I should go fire that box up > and see if the hard drive has stiction (odds are good). I have a MicroVAX I too, it's the only machine I've got with an RQDX2 controller and I think it doesn't work. Last time I powered up I just got an @ prompt. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 19 13:23:22 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 19:23:22 +0100 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One thing I still get a pang of regret about was throwing away a working VT180 back in '97 or so. Work didn't want it and I just didn't have the room for it so in a skip it went. Countless VAX4000s also went skip-bound. I priced one of them up before it went, when it was new it cost ?95k. That still stings a bit too. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu May 19 13:41:42 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 19:41:42 +0100 Subject: RSTS/E Message-ID: Hi I'd like to load RSTS/e on my 11/83. I have TK50's available so I guess the question is how do I get or create an install TK50 tape with RSTS/e on it Rod From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 19 13:54:07 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 11:54:07 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 19, 2016 11:42 AM, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > > Hi > > I'd like to load RSTS/e on my 11/83. I have TK50's available so I guess the question is how do I get or create an install > > TK50 tape with RSTS/e on it > > Rod > If you really want to install from tape use a Q-bus SCSI controller and SCSI tape drive instead. It will be a lot less painful. I've had reasonable luck doing that with Exabyte 8mm SCSI drives. (Also with Pertec interface 9-track drives.) I have had no good luck doing anything with TK50 drives. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 19 14:15:35 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 15:15:35 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 19, 2016, at 2:54 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > On May 19, 2016 11:42 AM, "Rod Smallwood" > wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> I'd like to load RSTS/e on my 11/83. I have TK50's available so I > guess the question is how do I get or create an install >> >> TK50 tape with RSTS/e on it >> >> Rod >> > > If you really want to install from tape use a Q-bus SCSI controller and > SCSI tape drive instead. It will be a lot less painful. > > I've had reasonable luck doing that with Exabyte 8mm SCSI drives. (Also > with Pertec interface 9-track drives.) I have had no good luck doing > anything with TK50 drives. That's odd, I know DEC used TK50 distribution and I personally have never had problems with a TK50. If you can find a TK50 distribution tape, just boot it and follow the instructions in the installation manual. If you don't have one, but you can find a 1600 BPI distribution tape, you can block-copy it to a TK50 and boot that. However, an 800 BPI tape won't work because it won't boot on a TMSCP controller. Oh yes, you need to make sure the RSTS in question is one that supports the TK50. I forgot exactly when that appeared. It certainly isn't in RSTS V7, which is a widely available version. paul From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu May 19 14:20:05 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 20:20:05 +0100 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01a601d1b203$72da4c10$588ee430$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 19 May 2016 19:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly > > On 19/05/2016 18:07, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > > > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Sean Caron > wrote: > >> ...I've never seen another microVAX I around... Ah, well, the KA655 > >> is more functional ;) > > > > I have a MicroVAX I... it's more of a curiosity than anything. Quite > > limited. We bought two when they first came out and upgraded one > > (full price, $17K ISTR) to a MicroVAX II. The enhanced one was used > > for product development and a few other things. The unenhanced one > > was our hardware test box so if one of our boards under test was so > > broken that it damaged the host (that did happen once or twice), it > > was cheaper to get back into service. I should go fire that box up > > and see if the hard drive has stiction (odds are good). > > I have a MicroVAX I too, it's the only machine I've got with an RQDX2 > controller and I think it doesn't work. Last time I powered up I just got an @ > prompt. > Wouldn't mind finding a MicroVAX I, although I am seriously short of space now.... Regards Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu May 19 14:37:49 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 20:37:49 +0100 Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9a553bdf-bb40-de50-bf2f-f327996b54f9@btinternet.com> On 19/05/2016 20:15, Paul Koning wrote: >> On May 19, 2016, at 2:54 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> >> On May 19, 2016 11:42 AM, "Rod Smallwood" >> wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> I'd like to load RSTS/e on my 11/83. I have TK50's available so I >> guess the question is how do I get or create an install >>> TK50 tape with RSTS/e on it >>> >>> Rod >>> >> If you really want to install from tape use a Q-bus SCSI controller and >> SCSI tape drive instead. It will be a lot less painful. >> >> I've had reasonable luck doing that with Exabyte 8mm SCSI drives. (Also >> with Pertec interface 9-track drives.) I have had no good luck doing >> anything with TK50 drives. > That's odd, I know DEC used TK50 distribution and I personally have never had problems with a TK50. > > If you can find a TK50 distribution tape, just boot it and follow the instructions in the installation manual. > > If you don't have one, but you can find a 1600 BPI distribution tape, you can block-copy it to a TK50 and boot that. However, an 800 BPI tape won't work because it won't boot on a TMSCP controller. > > Oh yes, you need to make sure the RSTS in question is one that supports the TK50. I forgot exactly when that appeared. It certainly isn't in RSTS V7, which is a widely available version. > > paul > I'm not overly worried about it being on TK50 other than knowing that was one of the distribution mediums. So a quick rephrase of the question. I have an 11/83 system with an RX50 and an RD54. How do I install RSTS on it? Rod From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 19 15:12:17 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 16:12:17 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: <9a553bdf-bb40-de50-bf2f-f327996b54f9@btinternet.com> References: <9a553bdf-bb40-de50-bf2f-f327996b54f9@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <26E912F6-1350-44A7-9D7C-0D2212981442@comcast.net> > On May 19, 2016, at 3:37 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > ... > I'm not overly worried about it being on TK50 other than knowing that was one of the distribution mediums. > So a quick rephrase of the question. I have an 11/83 system with an RX50 and an RD54. How do I install RSTS on it? Regular RSTS/E, you don't. Given RX50s, you'd need a Micro-RSTS kit. That's not all that different from regular RSTS; it's a bit stripped down, but mostly it has a different installation procedure to deal with the fact that it's packaged on a pile of tiny little floppies. paul From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu May 19 15:16:53 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 16:16:53 -0400 Subject: Passing of R. Tomlinson Message-ID: Sorry about being late: Raymond Tomlinson, email inventor, sadly passed on to the 'cyberworld' in March of this year. In this Age of the Internet, we're communicating with his invention and sharing our hobby throughoutthe world. Imagine 100 yrs. ago how we would have done this! Happy computing. Murray :) . From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 19 15:24:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 13:24:12 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: <26E912F6-1350-44A7-9D7C-0D2212981442@comcast.net> References: <9a553bdf-bb40-de50-bf2f-f327996b54f9@btinternet.com> <26E912F6-1350-44A7-9D7C-0D2212981442@comcast.net> Message-ID: <573E20EC.3070409@sydex.com> On 05/19/2016 01:12 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Regular RSTS/E, you don't. Given RX50s, you'd need a Micro-RSTS kit. > That's not all that different from regular RSTS; it's a bit stripped > down, but mostly it has a different installation procedure to deal > with the fact that it's packaged on a pile of tiny little floppies. I thought that the Zenith Minisport was the only system to use tiny little floppies... :) --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 19 09:19:37 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 14:19:37 +0000 Subject: Surplus DEC MINC In-Reply-To: <1D8D057C-5706-4931-A565-0D933FD99B48@MatlockFamily.com> References: <1D8D057C-5706-4931-A565-0D933FD99B48@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: > Tony, > Too bad your MINC is so far from me. I would love to have the spare parts > and RL01s to assist in my MINC restoration. I think shipping it is out of the question, and there are people interested who can collect it from me. > I would like to collaborate with who ever gets your MINC. Some other kind > souls on this list have helped me with copies of the Lab Subroutine Package > software and Scientific Subroutine Package software for MINC. I would hope whoever gets it is prepared to exchange information. There is no software with my machine, of course. In case anyone is worried I am keeping 2 MINCs myself. One is an RL01-based one that I have pulled the CPU, RAM and Bootstrap cards from and hung it off a DW11-B (Unibus-Qbus interface) on a PDP11/45 (yes, that does work!). I've not got the 11/45 running after the house move, but it is all there and sorting it out is just a matter of time The other MINC is a MINC-23 (PDP11/23 CPU board), with an RX02. I am also keeping at least one of every MINC module I have ever owned, including MNCAG (analogue preamplifier) and MNCTP (thermocouple interface). > Also, anyone trying to connect to the DB9 terminal blocks for the DLV-11J > should be aware that the pin out is NOT the common DB9 RS232 pin out. It > takes a special DB9 to DB25 cable DEC provided or some wiring > experimentation with an RS232 breakout box. The engineering drawings do > document the connections however. Strictly there's no such thing as a DB9. The connector is a DE9. It's not the PC/AT pinout, but it wouldn't surprise me if DEC used it elsewhere. It is just a cable from the DLV11-J, so tracing signals isn't hard. And to be honest I feel if you are going to run actual classic hardware (as opposed to software under emulation) you are going to have to make up cables at least. -tony From pete at petelancashire.com Thu May 19 10:05:46 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 08:05:46 -0700 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: <7ca114ff-b47c-5ecf-76cc-d171dc97df1f@jwsss.com> References: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> <7ca114ff-b47c-5ecf-76cc-d171dc97df1f@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Took home a couple of the exterior panels, put one on top of the bar-b-q and using a propane torch got it to burn, pure magnesium did what one would expect. Gave the other panel to a friend near Philly who was a rocket nut. On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 11:50 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > I may have access to one. I do have the disk drive for sure. Actually on > D-17, and a I think a spare set of boards. Not eyeballed it though. > > > On 5/18/2016 3:32 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: >> >> Brand new "NIB" Minuteman I D-17 computer section, the whole thing in >> a wooden crate. >> >> Even had the white exterior panels, remember them each had "Warning >> Magnesium" stamped on the inside. Was around 1985. > > > From ed at groenenberg.net Thu May 19 15:23:48 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 22:23:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem -> solved. In-Reply-To: <16897.212.115.168.185.1463637197.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <20160519003354.DAE7018C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <16897.212.115.168.185.1463637197.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <36631.10.10.10.2.1463689428.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Well, I feel somewhat stupid, but the problem with the hung bus is solved. The cause of it? no jumpers on the backplane to bypass the battery backup. The machine had a BBU regulator, but it was removed as I don't have the battery pack. So, after adding the 3 jumpers the NPG signal was cleared after a cntrl+halt and characters could be printed when deposited at address 777566 (with memory in the backplane). So, next step is to add a RL11 controller and see if it will boot RT-11. But that is for the weekend.... Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 19 15:38:02 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 14:38:02 -0600 (MDT) Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: <573E20EC.3070409@sydex.com> References: <9a553bdf-bb40-de50-bf2f-f327996b54f9@btinternet.com> <26E912F6-1350-44A7-9D7C-0D2212981442@comcast.net> <573E20EC.3070409@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I thought that the Zenith Minisport was the only system to use tiny > little floppies... :) Like a too-curious-ferret I had to weasel out what you were talking about from duckduckgo: http://www.oldcomputers.net/zenith-minisport.html Neato. I remember seeing those floppies for use with Japanese digital cameras (I worked in Japan for a while for a subsidary of NTT-Dokomo). That's a pretty cool looking laptop, too. I liked those LCD screens ("SuperTwist" ?) where you could adjust both the contrast and intensity. My eyes aren't great, and that always helped. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 19 15:52:24 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 14:52:24 -0600 (MDT) Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: <4cc50bbc579583812d9b130af1cafb68@mail.mxes.net> <7ca114ff-b47c-5ecf-76cc-d171dc97df1f@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Took home a couple of the exterior panels, put one on top of the bar-b-q > and using a propane torch got it to burn, pure magnesium did what one > would expect. Being born and raised in Texas (and Alaska, too a bit) I have friends and family who really live for shooting holes in things and/or setting them on fire. I'm not as bad off as them, I only do such things once a year or so. Last year, I had the opportunity for a bit of a reunion. Of course, being a special occasion, one of my more colorful (and frankly fun) uncles wanted to take me out and celebrate my being in town and also his own divorce. He told me he'd sued his ex-wife to get her to give her car back to him (he bought it for her right after the divorce... long story). It was a gaudy Honda Del Sol with a bunch of fru-fru including .... mag wheels (and thus my hand is revealed). He wanted to put it back to stock and re-paint it. So, he pulled the ghetto-style magnesium wheels off. We took two of them (still in good condition, but he didn't care) out to the part of the local landfill where people do the needful with firearms. After his divorce, he got himself a Barrett .50 and he wanted to show it off (at $6 a round, ouch). So, we first shot an old toilet. Me with a 22/250 and him with The Fifty. Uhh, he "won" for sure (the thing just exploded). Then we started shooting up the wheels. It was awesome. One shot sends a wheel up about 8' in the air and then it bursts into blinding-bright flame. Of course, then the other folks shooting out there wanted to come over and take shots. Eventually, they were blackened shredded blobs. The moral of the story is, magnesium is cool and rednecks with guns *can* be fun in the right setting. -Swift From austinpass at gmail.com Thu May 19 15:57:23 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 21:57:23 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. Message-ID: Swift's thread on the "ones that got away" got me thinking about another source of guilt/regret common to the classic computer collector: Systems we've neglected or failed to boot recently. I've had a re-jig of my storage, and whilst it was great to uncover gems that I'd forgotten I even had, it also brought some regrets for the systems I've neglected - lots of them not booted in 10 years or more. Because they were easily accessible I pulled out my Colour Classic and G4 Cube (is the latter on-topic through the "10 year rule" or are we sticking to pre-millenials?): https://www.dropbox.com/s/2c70f4flucjo3f6/IMG_7576.jpg?dl=0 Quick check-over and they both booted just fine! The systems I'm feeling really guilty over neglecting are: SGI Crimson VGX (skins perfect but needs some TLC before power-on) Micro PDP 11/83 (same) Maxed-out Acorn A3000 (my home-brew external SCSI Podule needs finishing) And I have a vast box of Sinclair Specturm games on tape that would probably take the rest of the year to load if I fired up my +2 and played them sequentially! -Austin. From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Thu May 19 16:09:59 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 17:09:59 -0400 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah! I've always wanted to play with a Crimson... ever since I saw them being used for visualization at the Army Corp of Engineers back in the early 90's. I was working in a different group and never got to use them. Not even sure where to look for one nowadays. Todd Killingsworth. On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Austin Pass wrote: > Swift's thread on the "ones that got away" got me thinking about another > source of guilt/regret common to the classic computer collector: > > Systems we've neglected or failed to boot recently. > > I've had a re-jig of my storage, and whilst it was great to uncover gems > that I'd forgotten I even had, it also brought some regrets for the systems > I've neglected - lots of them not booted in 10 years or more. > > Because they were easily accessible I pulled out my Colour Classic and G4 > Cube (is the latter on-topic through the "10 year rule" or are we sticking > to pre-millenials?): > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/2c70f4flucjo3f6/IMG_7576.jpg?dl=0 > > Quick check-over and they both booted just fine! > > The systems I'm feeling really guilty over neglecting are: > > SGI Crimson VGX (skins perfect but needs some TLC before power-on) > Micro PDP 11/83 (same) > Maxed-out Acorn A3000 (my home-brew external SCSI Podule needs finishing) > > And I have a vast box of Sinclair Specturm games on tape that would > probably take the rest of the year to load if I fired up my +2 and played > them sequentially! > > -Austin. > From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu May 19 16:20:44 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 14:20:44 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 troubleshooting Message-ID: Hi folks, I picked up a rather nasty Tek 4051 and gave it a good cleaning. It has an issue with the power supply. Before I dive in properly myself, I thought I'd just ask: Has anyone seen a behavior where- 1) With the main logic board attached, the power supply makes a loud buzz / hum. the +12 rail reads approx. 9v and the 15v rail is 13.5 or so. All lights turn on as the cpu is obviously not running. 2) With the main logic board detached from the power supply (no load at all on those rails?) I get a healthier 14.8 on the 15v rail and approx. 12 on 12. No hum / buzz. I believe the supply is linear. I suspect bad caps and a bad diode, but wanted to check here. also in testing 2), one of the weird resistor network film packages on the deflection board got really hot and made a smell. I hope it still works- will certainly not be testing with the main board unplugged again. Flood gun seems to be working. - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 19 16:31:58 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 15:31:58 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2016, Austin Pass wrote: > systems I've neglected - lots of them not booted in 10 years or more. Ouch. I'm thinking my oldest boot is going to be 6 years on my: * Sega Genesis + 32X * SNES (but I do play on the SupraBoy) * Sun Ultra 60 * SGI Indy R4600/200 Actually, I'm just going to treat this as a service reminder and go do some "spring cleaning" and actually test a few this week. > Quick check-over and they both booted just fine! woot! > The systems I'm feeling really guilty over neglecting are: > SGI Crimson VGX (skins perfect but needs some TLC before power-on) Ohhh, pretty. > Maxed-out Acorn A3000 (my home-brew external SCSI Podule needs > finishing) I missed out on those, to my sorry. -Swift From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu May 19 16:57:05 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 14:57:05 -0700 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2665A2B2-B7FE-4CA9-AD39-C4833A565D3D@eschatologist.net> I haven't booted my Lisa 2/10 in a very long time, not since before a cross-country move. I'm a little worried about it. Last time I looked (a couple years ago) it didn't look like any caps had gone though. And at least it doesn't have an internal battery to worry about. It definitely needs a floppy drive recalibration though, if not repair. Now that MacFloppyEmu exists (and I have one) I may just not worry about it, and run a cable out to use with that instead, so I can install the latest Office System as well as install Workshop. I also need to pull out and boot my NeXT mono slab. -- Chris From radiotest at juno.com Thu May 19 17:02:53 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 18:02:53 -0400 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160519175912.03f2fdd0@juno.com> At 04:57 PM 5/19/2016, Austin Pass wrote: >Systems we've neglected or failed to boot recently. My Amstrad PPC-640 gets booted a couple-few times a year when I need a native MS-DOS machine with a real serial port for work on some vintage broadcast hardware. I need to dig out the three CP/M machines (Osborne 1, Kaypro 4-84, Kaypro 1) and see if they will play, as they have not been booted in about a decade. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From scaron at diablonet.net Thu May 19 17:06:36 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 18:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2016, Austin Pass wrote: > Swift's thread on the "ones that got away" got me thinking about another > source of guilt/regret common to the classic computer collector: > > Systems we've neglected or failed to boot recently. > > I've had a re-jig of my storage, and whilst it was great to uncover gems > that I'd forgotten I even had, it also brought some regrets for the systems > I've neglected - lots of them not booted in 10 years or more. > > Because they were easily accessible I pulled out my Colour Classic and G4 > Cube (is the latter on-topic through the "10 year rule" or are we sticking > to pre-millenials?): > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/2c70f4flucjo3f6/IMG_7576.jpg?dl=0 > > Quick check-over and they both booted just fine! > > The systems I'm feeling really guilty over neglecting are: > > SGI Crimson VGX (skins perfect but needs some TLC before power-on) > Micro PDP 11/83 (same) > Maxed-out Acorn A3000 (my home-brew external SCSI Podule needs finishing) > > And I have a vast box of Sinclair Specturm games on tape that would > probably take the rest of the year to load if I fired up my +2 and played > them sequentially! > > -Austin. > Here's my best story along these lines. I've had a NeXT Cube for quite a while and it sat for some time in my parent's basement while I went off to school and got my adult life together. A few years ago, I made a pass through the town where I grew up with a box truck (on the way to Indiana to grab my ROLM CBX) and picked up all the remaining stuff I had in storage there and brought it home with me. I connected the monitor, keyboard and mouse and plugged the Cube in. Hit the power button on the keyboard and it powered up and booted right into NeXTstep as if it had just run a few days ago. I think the system must have been sitting idle for almost fifteen years before I got back to it. I even managed to remember the password ;) Since then, I've restored pretty much everything I was able to bring back to running condition. I try to fire them all up a few times a year, at a minimum. In general, things have held up pretty well. Drives tend to be the greatest challenge - but can sometimes present the greatest surprises as well :O Best, Sean From scaron at diablonet.net Thu May 19 17:10:32 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 18:10:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: <2665A2B2-B7FE-4CA9-AD39-C4833A565D3D@eschatologist.net> References: <2665A2B2-B7FE-4CA9-AD39-C4833A565D3D@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2016, Chris Hanson wrote: > I haven't booted my Lisa 2/10 in a very long time, not since before a cross-country move. > > I'm a little worried about it. Last time I looked (a couple years ago) it didn't look like any caps had gone though. And at least it doesn't have an internal battery to worry about. > > It definitely needs a floppy drive recalibration though, if not repair. Now that MacFloppyEmu exists (and I have one) I may just not worry about it, and run a cable out to use with that instead, so I can install the latest Office System as well as install Workshop. > > I also need to pull out and boot my NeXT mono slab. > > -- Chris > Be sure to check the battery! I saw a Lisa on EEVblog that met a horrible end. Rotted out more thoroughly than any Amiga I've ever seen with battery issues. It reminds me, I should probably pull my Dad's Lisa 2 out of storage next time I visit and give it a good looking over. I have found NeXT machines to age pretty well. If they don't fire right up just give the battery a change. Best, Sean From scaron at diablonet.net Thu May 19 17:14:55 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 18:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160519175912.03f2fdd0@juno.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160519175912.03f2fdd0@juno.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2016, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 04:57 PM 5/19/2016, Austin Pass wrote: > >> Systems we've neglected or failed to boot recently. > > My Amstrad PPC-640 gets booted a couple-few times a year when I need a native MS-DOS machine with a real serial port for work on some vintage broadcast hardware. > > I need to dig out the three CP/M machines (Osborne 1, Kaypro 4-84, Kaypro 1) and see if they will play, as they have not been booted in about a decade. > > Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > I've also got an Osborne (Executive) that I hadn't run for a while. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it, too, came right up after maybe a 10 or 15 year retirement. I was even more surprised to find that every bit of media that came with it is STILL GOOD. Wow! The only trouble with it is that occasionally the video starts to roll. If the machine is not too warm, I can usually get 10 or 15 minutes out of it. Probably needs some capacitors replaced ... I ought to open it up and have a look. Best, Sean From austinpass at gmail.com Thu May 19 17:15:04 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 23:15:04 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 19 May 2016, at 22:09, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > > Ah! I've always wanted to play with a Crimson... ever since I saw them > being used for visualization at the Army Corp of Engineers back in the > early 90's. I was working in a different group and never got to use them. > Not even sure where to look for one nowadays. > > Todd Killingsworth. >> They're a pretty spectacular machine, in physical presence as well as function (esp. with RealityEngine GFX). We had some building work done recently, and the Crimson was protected under a custom felt lined dust sheet made by a removals friend of mine (made from a cut-down piano cover for anyone interested!) When steels etc. were being installed in a particular area, the workmen were instructed to move it *with extreme care* to the furthest, cleanest point before proceeding. They carried this out for 3 weeks with extreme diligence. One of them - the youngest - when leaving admitted to taking a peek under the dust cover and googled what he found. Asking me about it, he wasn't at all surprised that I was so attached to a 24 year old gigantic workstation and forced his colleagues to watch Jurassic Park to show them "that giant b*stard under the dust sheet we've been hefting around!" -Austin. From austinpass at gmail.com Thu May 19 17:21:19 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 23:21:19 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 May 2016, at 22:31, Swift Griggs wrote: > >> On Thu, 19 May 2016, Austin Pass wrote: >> systems I've neglected - lots of them not booted in 10 years or more. > > Ouch. I'm thinking my oldest boot is going to be 6 years on my: > > * Sega Genesis + 32X > * SNES (but I do play on the SupraBoy) > * Sun Ultra 60 > * SGI Indy R4600/200 > > Actually, I'm just going to treat this as a service reminder and go do > some "spring cleaning" and actually test a few this week. > >> Quick check-over and they both booted just fine! > > woot! > >> The systems I'm feeling really guilty over neglecting are: >> SGI Crimson VGX (skins perfect but needs some TLC before power-on) > > Ohhh, pretty. > >> Maxed-out Acorn A3000 (my home-brew external SCSI Podule needs >> finishing) > > I missed out on those, to my sorry. > > -Swift Is Acorn kit available at all, Stateside? Growing up I was surrounded by it (parents both teachers and Acorn owned the UK Ed. market in the 1980's). I'm surprised I have relatively little of it now (just the A3000 and a very clean Model B). I'd like a RISC PC but supply is thin on the ground here nowadays, it appears the boat has sailed. I have a Genesis (badged Megadrive here) and regularly fire it up - both my kids love Psycho Pinball. I have a Saturn and GameGear in my collection, but they don't see much action. Still use (and adore) my Dreamcast of course, bought from new. -Austin. From scaron at diablonet.net Thu May 19 17:24:53 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 18:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2016, Austin Pass wrote: > >> On 19 May 2016, at 22:09, Todd Killingsworth wrote: >> >> Ah! I've always wanted to play with a Crimson... ever since I saw them >> being used for visualization at the Army Corp of Engineers back in the >> early 90's. I was working in a different group and never got to use them. >> Not even sure where to look for one nowadays. >> >> Todd Killingsworth. >>> > > They're a pretty spectacular machine, in physical presence as well as function (esp. with RealityEngine GFX). > > We had some building work done recently, and the Crimson was protected under a custom felt lined dust sheet made by a removals friend of mine (made from a cut-down piano cover for anyone interested!) When steels etc. were being installed in a particular area, the workmen were instructed to move it *with extreme care* to the furthest, cleanest point before proceeding. They carried this out for 3 weeks with extreme diligence. One of them - the youngest - when leaving admitted to taking a peek under the dust cover and googled what he found. Asking me about it, he wasn't at all surprised that I was so attached to a 24 year old gigantic workstation and forced his colleagues to watch Jurassic Park to show them "that giant b*stard under the dust sheet we've been hefting around!" > > -Austin. > I almost had a Crimson but the power supply blew up. It was a pretty basic model (just fitted with LG1 graphics, intended as a file server) but I was sure to keep all the boards. The IP19 is a looker. I use it to decorate in my databook room :O All those big ceramic PGAs! Best, Sean From austinpass at gmail.com Thu May 19 17:25:26 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 23:25:26 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160519175912.03f2fdd0@juno.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160519175912.03f2fdd0@juno.com> Message-ID: <935D6225-E070-4819-97B5-CB0A193EA19A@gmail.com> > On 19 May 2016, at 23:02, Dale H. Cook wrote: > > At 04:57 PM 5/19/2016, Austin Pass wrote: > >> Systems we've neglected or failed to boot recently. > > My Amstrad PPC-640 gets booted a couple-few times a year when I need a native MS-DOS machine with a real serial port for work on some vintage broadcast hardware. > > I need to dig out the three CP/M machines (Osborne 1, Kaypro 4-84, Kaypro 1) and see if they will play, as they have not been booted in about a decade. > > Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > Loving that PPC640 - a system that entirely passed me by! I have an Amstrad CPC6128 which is a cool little micro, although the 3" drive in mine needs servicing. I bought the *very last* (eBay emphasis, not author's own) rubber belts to do this back in 2007. Wonder if they're still good? -Austin. From scaron at diablonet.net Thu May 19 17:30:24 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 18:30:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > > The IP19 is a looker. I use it to decorate ... > Sorry. IP17. IP19 is for Challenge/Onyx. I wish ... ;) Best, Sean From austinpass at gmail.com Thu May 19 17:30:30 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 23:30:30 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <088854A8-8E54-45C4-B0CC-44CFF24E6DB0@gmail.com> > > Here's my best story along these lines. I've had a NeXT Cube for quite a while and it sat for some time in my parent's basement while I went off to school and got my adult life together. > > A few years ago, I made a pass through the town where I grew up with a box truck (on the way to Indiana to grab my ROLM CBX) and picked up all the remaining stuff I had in storage there and brought it home with me. > > I connected the monitor, keyboard and mouse and plugged the Cube in. Hit the power button on the keyboard and it powered up and booted right into NeXTstep as if it had just run a few days ago. I think the system must have been sitting idle for almost fifteen years before I got back to it. I even managed to remember the password ;) > > Since then, I've restored pretty much everything I was able to bring back to running condition. I try to fire them all up a few times a year, at a minimum. In general, things have held up pretty well. Drives tend to be the greatest challenge - but can sometimes present the greatest surprises as well :O > > Best, > > Sean > NeXT cubes are amongst the "most coveted" systems I don't currently have in my collection. Whilst being devoid of value in market terms, I agree that the old data on some of these systems is a real period treasure trove. Take the Colour Classic in my original post. It came from a school (since demolished) and has lots of old, crude work on it - seemingly from a Geography department. I actually learned something about glaciers by reading some tonight!! -Austin. From austinpass at gmail.com Thu May 19 17:36:11 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 23:36:11 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 19 May 2016, at 23:24, Sean Caron wrote: > > I almost had a Crimson but the power supply blew up. It was a pretty basic model (just fitted with LG1 graphics, intended as a file server) but I was sure to keep all the boards. The IP19 is a looker. I use it to decorate in my databook room :O All those big ceramic PGAs! > > Best, > > Sean I have a spare IP19 with mine, and intend to wall-mount it for that very reason. Very substantial and impressive! I like the Pentium Pro chip packaging for the same reason. -Austin. From austinpass at gmail.com Thu May 19 17:37:09 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 23:37:09 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 19 May 2016, at 23:30, Sean Caron wrote: > > Sorry. IP17. IP19 is for Challenge/Onyx. I wish ... ;) > > Best, > > Sean Ha! And I just repeated the error! -Austin. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu May 19 18:01:32 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 23:01:32 +0000 Subject: Passing of R. Tomlinson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED249D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Murray McCullough Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 1:17 PM > Sorry about being late: Raymond Tomlinson, email inventor, sadly passed > on to the 'cyberworld' in March of this year. In this Age of the > Internet, we're communicating with his invention and sharing our hobby > throughoutthe world. Imagine 100 yrs. ago how we would have done this! Pedantic note: Tomlinson did not invent e-mail. What he did invent was a mechanism by means of which electronic mail programs running on networked computers could communicate with each other. In particular, he decided to use a character with a low frequency of occurrence in text as the indicator that an address in the form of a user identifier of some kind resided on a computer other than the local host. His choice was, of course, the commercial-at (or commercial-a) character. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 19 18:11:31 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 00:11:31 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: <935D6225-E070-4819-97B5-CB0A193EA19A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 19/05/2016 23:25, "Austin Pass" wrote: > > Loving that PPC640 - a system that entirely passed me by! I have an Amstrad > CPC6128 which is a cool little micro, although the 3" drive in mine needs > servicing. I bought the *very last* (eBay emphasis, not author's own) rubber > belts to do this back in 2007. Wonder if they're still good? Last ones?! EVAR?!1one. Horrors. Don't tell Modern-Radio-Bolton otherwise the belts I bought recently for my Commodore C2N/1530s etc might evaporate in a puff of logic ;) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu May 19 18:25:55 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 16:25:55 -0700 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You parted a Crimson into wall hangings just because the PSU blew? They're super easy to work on. Sometimes this list makes me {m,s}ad. On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > On Thu, 19 May 2016, Austin Pass wrote: > > >> On 19 May 2016, at 22:09, Todd Killingsworth < >>> killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Ah! I've always wanted to play with a Crimson... ever since I saw them >>> being used for visualization at the Army Corp of Engineers back in the >>> early 90's. I was working in a different group and never got to use >>> them. >>> Not even sure where to look for one nowadays. >>> >>> Todd Killingsworth. >>> >>>> >>>> >> They're a pretty spectacular machine, in physical presence as well as >> function (esp. with RealityEngine GFX). >> >> We had some building work done recently, and the Crimson was protected >> under a custom felt lined dust sheet made by a removals friend of mine >> (made from a cut-down piano cover for anyone interested!) When steels etc. >> were being installed in a particular area, the workmen were instructed to >> move it *with extreme care* to the furthest, cleanest point before >> proceeding. They carried this out for 3 weeks with extreme diligence. One >> of them - the youngest - when leaving admitted to taking a peek under the >> dust cover and googled what he found. Asking me about it, he wasn't at all >> surprised that I was so attached to a 24 year old gigantic workstation and >> forced his colleagues to watch Jurassic Park to show them "that giant >> b*stard under the dust sheet we've been hefting around!" >> >> -Austin. >> >> > I almost had a Crimson but the power supply blew up. It was a pretty basic > model (just fitted with LG1 graphics, intended as a file server) but I was > sure to keep all the boards. The IP19 is a looker. I use it to decorate in > my databook room :O All those big ceramic PGAs! > > Best, > > Sean > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From other at oryx.us Thu May 19 19:02:21 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 19:02:21 -0500 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <573E540D.5090804@oryx.us> +1 Been looking for a Crimson for about 8 years now. A couple have come up, but none anywhere close to me. Due to size and weight shipping has been prohibitive. :( Jerry On 05/19/16 06:25 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > You parted a Crimson into wall hangings just because the PSU blew? They're > super easy to work on. > > Sometimes this list makes me {m,s}ad. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 19 19:04:15 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 17:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: <088854A8-8E54-45C4-B0CC-44CFF24E6DB0@gmail.com> References: <088854A8-8E54-45C4-B0CC-44CFF24E6DB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: If I manage to make it to VCF, I should try to get rid of: Epson RC20 - Z80 RAM, pseudo ROM, serial port. Unfortunately, not having charged it up in way too long, in addition to battery charge, somebody will have to locate the "ROM-Roader", or make one. NEC 8201A - same group of machines as Model100. OQO - I have a bunch of them. Most of the MANY batteries will need new cells. I wonder if that Epson QX-10 is still in my shed If I get enough stuff out, then it's time to part with my early 5150 (which, although very early, has a few trivial mods) A lot of IBM 5150 series manuals. (at least a dozen shelf feet of IBM binders in slipcases) But getting rid of all that will only reduce the clutter to "extreme hoarding". From bradhodge75 at gmail.com Thu May 19 19:09:41 2016 From: bradhodge75 at gmail.com (Brad H) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 17:09:41 -0700 Subject: MSI 6800 Message-ID: <022201d1b22b$e83154e0$b893fea0$@gmail.com> Hi there, I recently acquired a Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 computer. Been meaning to set it up but was working on restoring a couple of SWTPC terminals first. It has a SI-1 serial board in it and what looks like a second serial board absent manufacturer markings. The SI-1 has configurable baud rate, but I do not know what the other settings should be (ie. 7 or 8 bit, how many stop bits, etc.). I'm working with a PC terminal for now, and the MSI does react to keys being pressed, but it just produces jibberish. I have the baud rate at 1200 and have tried 7 bits, 1 stop bit, Even parity, odd parity, 2 stop bits, 8 bits, etc.. but no avail. Wondering if there's a manual extant out there or anyone with really good memory on how to get these things communicating. Thanks!! Brad From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 19 18:59:39 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 00:59:39 +0100 Subject: classics I threw away or sold ... foolishly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <140ca9b3-2057-3362-20f4-edee17bc2b84@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/05/2016 15:25, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Thu, 19 May 2016, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> - my first Exidy Sorcerer, with 48K, every ROM PAC and every manual I >> could buy, and a lot of mods, > > Those look really cool. I remember seeing them in computer mags when I was > uhhh, 7 or 8 years old. Drooled. > >> - an SGI Indy which I sold for little more than the cost of shipping, > > I still have 2 Indys. One R4600/200 and one R5000/180. I also have a > Challenge S with an R4600 in it. These are easy to warehouse, but I > probably need to hoard up some Dallas clock modules for them, since they > often go bad and lose their MAC. I have two R5000 Indys, four R3000 Indigos with various graphics, four O2s (3 x R5K and 1 x R10K) and a 16-processor Origin 2000 so I can't really complain about that sold Indy, except that there was some personal history to it. >> - a big collection of SCSI and IEEE-488 cables, > > Oh man, I threw away a bunch of serial and SCSI cables at one point only > to have to buy the same ones again years later. Ugh. Exactly. I had to scrounge three from a friend last weekend. And then discovered I'd also given away the only SCSI enclosure that would fit the intended desk space without a lot omore work. Doh! -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 19 19:26:38 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 17:26:38 -0700 Subject: Passing of R. Tomlinson In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED249D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED249D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <573E59BE.2050001@sydex.com> On 05/19/2016 04:01 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > What he did invent was a mechanism by means of which electronic mail > programs running on networked computers could communicate with each > other. In particular, he decided to use a character with a low > frequency of occurrence in text as the indicator that an address in > the form of a user identifier of some kind resided on a computer > other than the local host. His choice was, of course, the > commercial-at (or commercial-a) character. As opposed to,say, the "bang" format address (UUCP/usenet) or the double-colon (DECnet) or CSNET (percent sign)--and there were probably a host of company-internal varieties, particularly on older 6-bit machines without a commercial "at" in their character set. Fun was when email was shuttled through a couple of different systems... --Chuck From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu May 19 19:41:33 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 19:41:33 -0500 Subject: Passing of R. Tomlinson In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED249D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED249D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20160520004133.GC4727@gmail.com> On Thu, May 19, 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Murray McCullough > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 1:17 PM > > > Sorry about being late: Raymond Tomlinson, email inventor, sadly passed > > on to the 'cyberworld' in March of this year. In this Age of the > > Internet, we're communicating with his invention and sharing our hobby > > throughoutthe world. Imagine 100 yrs. ago how we would have done this! > > Pedantic note: Tomlinson did not invent e-mail. > > What he did invent was a mechanism by means of which electronic mail > programs running on networked computers could communicate with each other. > In particular, he decided to use a character with a low frequency of > occurrence in text as the indicator that an address in the form of a user > identifier of some kind resided on a computer other than the local host. > His choice was, of course, the commercial-at (or commercial-a) character. OH! He invented the at sign! ;) -- Eric Christopherson From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu May 19 22:37:17 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 20:37:17 -0700 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: <2665A2B2-B7FE-4CA9-AD39-C4833A565D3D@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <2F5325CA-0ED4-4FD9-B3C8-9570B223F1B6@eschatologist.net> On May 19, 2016, at 3:10 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > > On Thu, 19 May 2016, Chris Hanson wrote: > >> I haven't booted my Lisa 2/10 in a very long time, not since before a cross-country move. >> >> I'm a little worried about it. Last time I looked (a couple years ago) it didn't look like any caps had gone though. And at least it doesn't have an internal battery to worry about. > > Be sure to check the battery! I saw a Lisa on EEVblog that met a horrible end. Rotted out more thoroughly than any Amiga I've ever seen with battery issues. As I said, my Lisa is a Lisa 2/10, so it has no battery to worry about. :) The Lisa 2 (aka 2/5, using an external 5MB ProFile) is the one that has the NiCd battery pack, not the 2/10. > It reminds me, I should probably pull my Dad's Lisa 2 out of storage next time I visit and give it a good looking over. Here?s hoping it?s just fine! -- Chris From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 19 23:10:59 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 21:10:59 -0700 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: <2F5325CA-0ED4-4FD9-B3C8-9570B223F1B6@eschatologist.net> References: <2665A2B2-B7FE-4CA9-AD39-C4833A565D3D@eschatologist.net> <2F5325CA-0ED4-4FD9-B3C8-9570B223F1B6@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <573E8E53.6000609@sydex.com> I haven't booted up either of my Durango F85s for a few years. My old Integrand S100 box hasn't seen a boot in almost 30 years. Eh, I'll get to them one of these days. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu May 19 23:19:03 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 00:19:03 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: <9a553bdf-bb40-de50-bf2f-f327996b54f9@btinternet.com> References: <9a553bdf-bb40-de50-bf2f-f327996b54f9@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <573E9037.40806@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > I'm not overly worried about it being on TK50 other than knowing that > was one of the distribution mediums. > So a quick rephrase of the question. I have an 11/83 system with an > RX50 and an RD54. How do I install RSTS on it? Why do you want to use the PDP-11/83? Do you want to run RSTS/E or just exercise the PDP-11/83 hardware? If your answer is running RSTS/E, there is much more convenient hardware than a PDP-11/83. If you want to exercise the PDP-11/83, the solution I understand is to use a hammer when you only have a nail. If you don't know how to prepare a TK50 tape that self boots and then does a restore of RSTS/E, then you might resort to using RT-11. Backup each RT-11 partition under either SimH or Ersatz-11. The restore using the RX50 drive and copy each RT-11 partition to the RD54 from the TK50 file images. Of course, you need to be able to write to a TK50 tape under SimH or Ersatz-11. You also have to take care of block 65535 for each RT-11 partition since I don't know if RT-11 will backup it up. If you need some help with this, I will try and figure it out as long as you test to determine if you can write to a TK50 tape in the first place. Jerome Fine From spacewar at gmail.com Fri May 20 01:18:45 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 00:18:45 -0600 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 8, 2016 9:33 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote about the CRT of the color monitor of some models of the Tektronix DAS 9100 logic analyzer: > It is custom, and it is tri-color (red, green, yellow), but it's a > beam penetration CRT that is not a modified version of any normal > color CRT. There is no shadow mask, and it can only draw one color per > field, like the 1951 CBS field-sequential color television, though > that was done with a color wheel while this is done by modulating the > anode voltage (and possibly the deflection drive as well). On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 7:45 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > I must be thinking of a different model. Now that I've looked at volume 1 of the DAS 9100 service manual, I believe my information was incorrect. Volume 1 is scant on details of the color monitor, but it does say that the anode voltage is 21kV. If it was a beam-penetration CRT, it would have to be switched between different voltages for red and green. (And yellow, if that was generated with its own phosphor layer rather than as two passes with red and green.) The color monitor is manufactured by Tektronix using a CRT also manufactured by Tektronix. The monochrome version uses a monitor OEM'd from Motorola. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri May 20 01:22:08 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 00:22:08 -0600 Subject: Pascal/8002 or other compilers for Tek 8002 dev. system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > the Tektronix DAS 9100 logic analyzer is Z80 based, and > contains many ROMs, mostly 8KB MK36000 series masked ROMs and MCM68764 > EPROMs, but only one ROM appears to contain much actual Z80 code. That > 8K ROM is labeled "INTERP" and contains a bytecode interpreter. > Apparently all the other ROMs are full of bytecode. The bytecode does > not match the UCSD p-code nor the ETHZ P4 p-code. I've started > disassembling it, but haven't yet learned too much. Volume 1 of the service manual confirms that most of the software in the DAS 9100 is written in Pascal and interpreted. Since the p-code doesn't match UCSD or ETHZ, I still suspect that it was compiled using the Pascal/8002 compiler from Pascal Development Co., but I'm not optimistic about finding a copy of that compiler or even the documentation for it. I enjoyed doing a little bit of reverse-engineering of the bytecode interpreter, but I don't think I'll pursue it any further. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri May 20 01:47:09 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 07:47:09 +0100 Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: <573E9037.40806@compsys.to> References: <9a553bdf-bb40-de50-bf2f-f327996b54f9@btinternet.com> <573E9037.40806@compsys.to> Message-ID: <0b95a0d0-4a53-8798-050e-14c1c92726ef@btinternet.com> On 20/05/2016 05:19, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> I'm not overly worried about it being on TK50 other than knowing that >> was one of the distribution mediums. >> So a quick rephrase of the question. I have an 11/83 system with an >> RX50 and an RD54. How do I install RSTS on it? > > Why do you want to use the PDP-11/83? Do you want > to run RSTS/E or just exercise the PDP-11/83 hardware? > > If your answer is running RSTS/E, there is much more > convenient hardware than a PDP-11/83. > > If you want to exercise the PDP-11/83, the solution I > understand is to use a hammer when you only have a nail. > > If you don't know how to prepare a TK50 tape that self boots > and then does a restore of RSTS/E, then you might resort to > using RT-11. Backup each RT-11 partition under either > SimH or Ersatz-11. The restore using the RX50 drive and > copy each RT-11 partition to the RD54 from the TK50 file > images. > > Of course, you need to be able to write to a TK50 tape > under SimH or Ersatz-11. You also have to take care > of block 65535 for each RT-11 partition since I don't > know if RT-11 will backup it up. If you need some help > with this, I will try and figure it out as long as you test > to determine if you can write to a TK50 tape in the first > place. > > Jerome Fine Hi Jerome Thanks for the answer. 1. The system is going into an exhibit. There will be an assortment of DEC terminals attached 2. The guy who is going to look after it has years of RSTS user knowledge. 3, There are several systems available all 11/83. All with RD54 4. They are working and boot RSX . 5. I cant remember how to remember how to prepare a bootable RSTS install tape (I last did the course in 1983) 6. I do have a copy of RSTS V9 and I know the version supports TK50. Its a .tap image 7. So its a case move the image over to my VAX from my PC. My network can do that. 8. Then make the tape boot and install RSTS 9 . How do I do that? Rod From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 20 02:32:58 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 08:32:58 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19/05/2016 23:21, "Austin Pass" wrote: > I'm surprised I have relatively little of it now (just the A3000 and a very > clean Model B). I'd like a RISC PC but supply is thin on the ground here > nowadays, it appears the boat has sailed. They're still around - I got 2 RPCs and an Iyonix the other month from the local freecycle group. If you're anywhere near Stratford-on-Avon in July I'm doing an exhibition there so the Iyonix will be on display. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 20 02:39:28 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 08:39:28 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19/05/2016 23:10, "Sean Caron" wrote: > On Thu, 19 May 2016, Chris Hanson wrote: > >> I haven't booted my Lisa 2/10 in a very long time, not since before a >> cross-country move. >> >> I'm a little worried about it. Last time I looked (a couple years ago) it >> didn't look like any caps had gone though. And at least it doesn't have an >> internal battery to worry about. >> >> It definitely needs a floppy drive recalibration though, if not repair. Now >> that MacFloppyEmu exists (and I have one) I may just not worry about it, and >> run a cable out to use with that instead, so I can install the latest Office >> System as well as install Workshop. >> >> I also need to pull out and boot my NeXT mono slab. >> >> -- Chris >> > > Be sure to check the battery! I saw a Lisa on EEVblog that met a horrible > end. Rotted out more thoroughly than any Amiga I've ever seen with battery > issues. > > It reminds me, I should probably pull my Dad's Lisa 2 out of storage next > time I visit and give it a good looking over. > > I have found NeXT machines to age pretty well. If they don't fire right up > just give the battery a change. I had a panic about my Lisa 2/5 after unearthing one of my Amiga 2000s and discovering the battery damage. Fortunately because I'd had it stored on its side (it fits in a Mac Plus box) the damage was limited to the immediate area around the battery and it was very fixable. That in turn made me attempt to power up my 2/10 but it's never been powered up even though I've had it for over 10 years so I wasn't surprised when I hit the button and got nothing. Fortunately I know someone who's well versed on the PSUs of these things. My NeXT slab also hadn't been powered up for 10 years so I checked that one and all was ok, only it wasn't my slab! I picked up a load of NeXT gear from an ex-employee many years ago including a colour turbo, cube, slab and Elonex SCSI PC running the x86 version of NeXTSTEP (NeXTSTART by then?). At some point I must've accidentally swapped the slabs... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 20 07:09:03 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 12:09:03 +0000 Subject: MINC is going to Pete Turnbull Message-ID: Well, the Subject: line gives the result of by decision. I have decided (after much thought, it was not easy!) to give the surplus MINC to Pete. I wish I had more spare MINCs so I could give each of you one. Perhaps the only consolation is that there may well be other machines up for grabs as I continue to sort out. Pete, we need to agree a time for collection. Thanks to everyone who responded. -tony From pete at petelancashire.com Fri May 20 07:27:10 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 05:27:10 -0700 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually the CRT was built for Tek. but since is was a custom it can be though of as a Tek CRT. I'm not sure about the monitory assembly, sometime this year I maybe able to get the full specs on the CRT if anyone is interested. -pete Ex Tekkie On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:18 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On May 8, 2016 9:33 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote > about the CRT of the color monitor of some models of the Tektronix > DAS 9100 logic analyzer: >> It is custom, and it is tri-color (red, green, yellow), but it's a >> beam penetration CRT that is not a modified version of any normal >> color CRT. There is no shadow mask, and it can only draw one color per >> field, like the 1951 CBS field-sequential color television, though >> that was done with a color wheel while this is done by modulating the >> anode voltage (and possibly the deflection drive as well). > > On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 7:45 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: >> I must be thinking of a different model. > > Now that I've looked at volume 1 of the DAS 9100 service manual, I > believe my information was incorrect. Volume 1 is scant on details of > the color monitor, but it does say that the anode voltage is 21kV. If > it was a beam-penetration CRT, it would have to be switched between > different voltages for red and green. (And yellow, if that was > generated with its own phosphor layer rather than as two passes with > red and green.) > > The color monitor is manufactured by Tektronix using a CRT also > manufactured by Tektronix. The monochrome version uses a monitor OEM'd > from Motorola. > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri May 20 08:46:16 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 09:46:16 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: <0b95a0d0-4a53-8798-050e-14c1c92726ef@btinternet.com> References: <9a553bdf-bb40-de50-bf2f-f327996b54f9@btinternet.com> <573E9037.40806@compsys.to> <0b95a0d0-4a53-8798-050e-14c1c92726ef@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <573F1528.6010109@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote:> > On 20/05/2016 05:19, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> I'm not overly worried about it being on TK50 other than knowing >>> that was one of the distribution mediums. >>> So a quick rephrase of the question. I have an 11/83 system with an >>> RX50 and an RD54. How do I install RSTS on it? >> >> >> Why do you want to use the PDP-11/83? Do you want >> to run RSTS/E or just exercise the PDP-11/83 hardware? >> >> If your answer is running RSTS/E, there is much more >> convenient hardware than a PDP-11/83. >> >> If you want to exercise the PDP-11/83, the solution I >> understand is to use a hammer when you only have a nail. >> >> If you don't know how to prepare a TK50 tape that self boots >> and then does a restore of RSTS/E, then you might resort to >> using RT-11. Backup each RT-11 partition under either >> SimH or Ersatz-11. The restore using the RX50 drive and >> copy each RT-11 partition to the RD54 from the TK50 file >> images. >> >> Of course, you need to be able to write to a TK50 tape >> under SimH or Ersatz-11. You also have to take care >> of block 65535 for each RT-11 partition since I don't >> know if RT-11 will backup it up. If you need some help >> with this, I will try and figure it out as long as you test >> to determine if you can write to a TK50 tape in the first >> place. >> >> Jerome Fine > > > > Hi Jerome > Thanks for the answer. > > 1. The system is going into an exhibit. There will be an assortment of > DEC terminals attached > > 2. The guy who is going to look after it has years of RSTS user > knowledge. > > 3, There are several systems available all 11/83. All with RD54 > > 4. They are working and boot RSX . > > 5. I cant remember how to remember how to prepare a bootable RSTS > install tape (I last did the course in 1983) > > 6. I do have a copy of RSTS V9 and I know the version supports TK50. > Its a .tap image > > 7. So its a case move the image over to my VAX from my PC. My > network can do that. > > 8. Then make the tape boot and install RSTS > > 9 . How do I do that? As I mentioned, the ONLY advice that I can offer is what to do with an image file on a system that supports SimH and / or Ersatz-11. AFTER RSTS/E is installed on such a system within an image file that is the same size as an RD54, then assuming you can copy file images to physical TK50 media on that same system, I can probably figure out how to do it under RT-11, i.e. how to copy each RT-11 partition of the RD54 (actually the image file the size of an RD54) with the installed RSTS/E files to TK50 images although in the past I have never used TK50s under Ersatz-11, just under a real DEC PDP-11/83 (actually TK70s, but the software is the same). Are you that far at this point? Maybe if you can find someone who knows how to produce a bootable TK50 media would be easier. One thing that I would be concerned over is that a TK50, if I remember correctly, can't hold much more than 50 MB, so if the image file of the RD54 holds more than that many files, you will need more than one TK50 media of data. If you go the RT-11 method, each TK50 will need to hold 32 MB at most, so there will not be a problem. Jerome Fine From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri May 20 09:01:52 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 10:01:52 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: <0b95a0d0-4a53-8798-050e-14c1c92726ef@btinternet.com> References: <9a553bdf-bb40-de50-bf2f-f327996b54f9@btinternet.com> <573E9037.40806@compsys.to> <0b95a0d0-4a53-8798-050e-14c1c92726ef@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5C5F2678-9894-4F07-986A-662624CDACB7@comcast.net> > On May 20, 2016, at 2:47 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > ... > 1. The system is going into an exhibit. There will be an assortment of DEC terminals attached > > 2. The guy who is going to look after it has years of RSTS user knowledge. > > 3, There are several systems available all 11/83. All with RD54 > > 4. They are working and boot RSX . > > 5. I cant remember how to remember how to prepare a bootable RSTS install tape (I last did the course in 1983) Install tapes for V9 or later are weird constructs; they are partly DOS and partly ANSI format. I don't remember the messy details. > 6. I do have a copy of RSTS V9 and I know the version supports TK50. Its a .tap image If you have a TAP image of a good installation tape, the best answer is to copy that to the physical tape, because then it will definitely work. Trying to construct one out of pieces isn't as easy. > 7. So its a case move the image over to my VAX from my PC. My network can do that. > > 8. Then make the tape boot and install RSTS > > 9 . How do I do that? If you have a way to make TK50 tapes from TAP images, then I'd suggest this: 1. Make a TK50 install tape from a TAP image of a known good install tape. Remember that installation tapes have to be write locked when you boot them to be recognized as an install tape. 2. Do just the first steps of the install, just what's needed to copy the sysgen environment to the disk. 3. Do a full backup of your SIMH setup to tape (TAP image), with the Backup command. That will create a simple tape, nothing nearly as strange as a kit tape. Then copy that image to another TK50. 4. Put the backup TK50 into your 11/83 system and do a full restore. 5. Reboot and use the INSTALL command in Init to select the regular system SIL that you copied in step 4. Proceed with startup; you should now be all set. paul From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri May 20 09:30:48 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 07:30:48 -0700 Subject: MSI 6800 Message-ID: Hi there, I have acquired an MSI 6800 (SS50) computer and am trying to figure out how to get it going. ?I am reaching out everywhere hoping to find someone with knowledge of these as I have searched around extensively and cannot find a manual. With a null modem cable connected to a PC I can get a response from the computer by typing things or resetting it, but the output is garbled. ?I know the baud rate but at present have no way to determine the other settings like bit, parity, etc. Any help/advice would be appreciated! Brad Sent from my Samsung device From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 20 09:50:53 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 10:50:53 -0400 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4771e258-6fd2-cb98-53f8-526eacd03fad@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-20 3:39 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 19/05/2016 23:10, "Sean Caron" wrote: > ... > My NeXT slab also hadn't been powered up for 10 years so I checked that one > and all was ok, only it wasn't my slab! I picked up a load of NeXT gear from > an ex-employee many years ago including a colour turbo, cube, slab and > Elonex SCSI PC running the x86 version of NeXTSTEP (NeXTSTART by then?). At OPENSTEP? > some point I must've accidentally swapped the slabs... > I'm not sure I understand the shell game here. If you swapped them, what happened to yours? --Toby From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri May 20 09:59:44 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 15:59:44 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: <4771e258-6fd2-cb98-53f8-526eacd03fad@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4771e258-6fd2-cb98-53f8-526eacd03fad@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 20 May 2016 at 15:50, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-05-20 3:39 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> On 19/05/2016 23:10, "Sean Caron" wrote: >> ... >> My NeXT slab also hadn't been powered up for 10 years so I checked that >> one >> and all was ok, only it wasn't my slab! I picked up a load of NeXT gear >> from >> an ex-employee many years ago including a colour turbo, cube, slab and >> Elonex SCSI PC running the x86 version of NeXTSTEP (NeXTSTART by then?). >> At >> > > OPENSTEP? > That's the kiddie. It's on a DEC RZ25. Unfortunately said drive's rubber mounts turned to goo and infiltrated the PSU, we discovered this in the bloke's flat when he turned the machine on and it promptly went pop. I powered the machine up using a normal PSU (the Elonex one is a proprietary) but I need a boot floppy which I don't have. > some point I must've accidentally swapped the slabs... >> >> > I'm not sure I understand the shell game here. If you swapped them, what > happened to yours? All the kit I picked up with some exceptions was destined for TNMOC at Bletchley Park. I guess my slab ended up there. Doesn't matter anyway because I replaced the drive in mine before installing NeXTSTEP 3.3. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ethan at 757.org Fri May 20 10:07:41 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 11:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: <573E540D.5090804@oryx.us> References: <573E540D.5090804@oryx.us> Message-ID: > +1 > Been looking for a Crimson for about 8 years now. > A couple have come up, but none anywhere close to me. Due to size and weight > shipping has been prohibitive. > :( > Jerry I've owned 3 Crimsons and 3 or 4 Onyx desksides. I wonder where they are now? I know one Crimson buyer drove to Virginia Beach from Atlanta GA. FWIW, everyone loves the Crimson. I like the Challenge L and Onyx deskside better. I know that one of my old Onyx's is in New Mexico, not sure where the others are these days. I gave away *four* Challenge Ls. Not sure if the one guy still uses them as a table end or not. From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Fri May 20 10:17:28 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 09:17:28 -0600 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: <573E540D.5090804@oryx.us> Message-ID: > > I've owned 3 Crimsons and 3 or 4 Onyx desksides. I wonder where they are > now? I know one Crimson buyer drove to Virginia Beach from Atlanta GA. > > FWIW, everyone loves the Crimson. I like the Challenge L and Onyx deskside > better. > > I know that one of my old Onyx's is in New Mexico, not sure where the > others are these days. > > I gave away *four* Challenge Ls. Not sure if the one guy still uses them > as a table end or not. > > I had an opportunity to get four Origin 3000s and two Cray J-90s in the 2008-9 timeframe. Could never arrange for transportation though, so they got away. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 20 10:32:59 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 09:32:59 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: <573E540D.5090804@oryx.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > FWIW, everyone loves the Crimson. I like the Challenge L and Onyx > deskside better. They love them because they are Awesome. :-) > I know that one of my old Onyx's is in New Mexico, not sure where the > others are these days. People love them. I just wish folks would take better care of the skins. > I gave away *four* Challenge Ls. Not sure if the one guy still uses them > as a table end or not. Damn, Ethan, you have had more SGI's than I have. That's freakin' saying something, and you don't seem to mind the big ones, either. Then again, all you British folks live in large country estates, right? :-) In the USA, we just name apartment complexes like we wish it was medieval times in rural Britain. Ie.. "Willowmanor Estates", "Manorwood Manor", "Blokehappy Hollow" etc.. However, despite the name, they frequently don't have 220v L630 twist lock whips, 3-phase power, or anything else that makes life as a Big-SGI collector easy. :-P My favorite is actually the Tezro. I love the crossbar architecture, and it's basically (same procs same RAM etc..) a mini Origin 3k supercomputer. It's just a brusin' bad-dude of a graphics workstation. Stick a dmedia rig on there and it's graphics/video heaven (even HD). The machine feels much faster than 4x1Ghz. Even browsers run fast. To me, this is the "high art" intersection of electrical engineering, Unix, and design-friendly philosophy. I just need to get mine to 16GB of RAM and I'll be in hog-heaven (a very loud fan-blown heaven, but still). I've got my Tezro all beefed up with SSD drives too (acard 3.5" converters used and work very nicely). Yesterday I put it on my living room coffee table to cheer me up when I come home from work (I have no kids, dog, life, hehe). Is that a bit much ? The Octane is also a really wonderful platform for many of the same reasons as the Tezro. I don't currently own one, but I've got room for one more SGI, and I think it'll be either a Fuel or an Octane2. I just need to find one with skins in good condition and a decent CPU. It'll probably be an Octane2 because the Fuel reminds me too much of a PeeCee. It's like when Sun came out with UltraSPARCs and started in with cheapened PeeCee sparcstations (my opinion from looking at the guts of those machines and comparing with older machines such as the venerable SS10). Still, the Fuels are fast and take commodity hardware very easily. -Swift PS: I'm never selling my SGIs unless something exceedingly horrible happens. I've even got them in my will. I want them to go to people I trust. etc... Nutty? Probably. Such is my life. PPS: You guys got me all paranoid with your battery horror stories. I stayed up late last night powering on Indys. Whew! Everything is working, including my Sega 32X! From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 20 10:35:07 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 09:35:07 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: <573E540D.5090804@oryx.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 May 2016, John Willis wrote: > I had an opportunity to get four Origin 3000s and two Cray J-90s in the > 2008-9 timeframe. Could never arrange for transportation though, so they > got away. That wasn't by chance at NOAA or NREL, was it? One of those DoE sub-org folks had a similar rig IIRC, for a while. Exxon had six O3k's or something like that for a while. -Swift From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 20 11:03:14 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 18:03:14 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 29 April 2016 at 19:49, Mouse wrote: >>> True, but again, *you shouldn't have to*. It means programmer >>> effort, brain power, is being wasted on thinking about being safe >>> instead of spent on writing better programs. > > True, but... > >> One side effect of this is that it makes a lot of C programmers >> pedants. > > ...this is also true, and it means the development of a mindset that's > better equipped to catch higher-level mistakes as well as the low-level > mistakes. My points are: * not everyone is _able_ to develop that mindset. * some (many) that cannot, think that they can. * humans are fallible. * modern codebases are _vast_ and hugely complex -- to big for any individual to absorb & comprehend. > It's true that C is easy to use unsafely. However, (a) it arose as an > OS implementation language, for which some level of unsafeness is > necessary, and (b) to paraphrase a famous remark about Unix, I suspect > it is not possible to eliminate the ability to do stupid things in C > without also eliminating the ability to do some clever things in C. I think that the key thing is not to offer people alternatives that make it safer at the cost of removal of the clever stuff. It's to offer other clever stuff instead. C is famously unreadable, and yet most modern languages ape its syntax. > Of course, the question is not whether C has flaws. The question is > why it's still being used despite those flaws. The answer, I suspect, > is what someone said about it being good enough. "Worse is better." >> My value system doesn't jive with smart phones. > > I would have no problem with them if they were documented. But I've > yet to find one that is. I worked on a project writing code for a new > Android phone, once, and even as developers we had to use binary blob > drivers for important pieces. (It also taught me how horrible the > Android build system is.) > > Mind you, if/when I find one that _is_ documented.... There _are_ FOSS offerings. The Jolla Sailfish devices, for instance. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 20 11:18:57 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 12:18:57 -0400 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) Message-ID: On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Last ones?! EVAR?!1one. Horrors. Don't tell Modern-Radio-Bolton otherwise > the belts I bought recently for my Commodore C2N/1530s etc might evaporate > in a puff of logic Do you have the dimensions on that belt handy? All of my Commodore tape drives are erratic due to aged belts. I can't get good reads and I have some PET Rabbit-format tapes to read (long ago, I digitized my standard CBM tapes). I'll likely order from this side of the pond, but I just need to know what size(s) work(s). -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 20 11:24:45 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 18:24:45 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 18 May 2016 at 21:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > But, "Moore's Law" held that it wouldn't be much longer. > Just one doubling of the speed of the Lisa's hardware would have been enough > to silence the speed complaints. A general point, really. One of Microsoft's strokes of brilliance was selectively exploiting this. I think maybe it learned it from the 80286 OS/2 1.x d?bacle. NT 3.1 was brilliant if a bit bulky and unoptimised. Fair enough, it was a v1.0 OS. It was way way WAY too heavy for the average 1993 PC, but power users played, partly 'cos it fixed serious problems with Windows 3.1. (You could run a Win3.1 16-bit app in its own memory space & thus slightly get round Win3.1's terrible low resource limitations. Source: my customers did it, and paid GBP 5K for a PC to run it on for that reason.) NT 3.5 fixed some of that and now the PC was ?3.5K or so. NT 3.51 was pretty good and now the PC was ?2.5-?2K -- in other words, accessible to a high-end power user. The Win3 UI kept the proles away -- they wanted the friendlier Win95. NT 4 brought the UI, and now, a plain vanilla high-end PC could run it. The cycle sort of repeated with XP and Vista -- they were aimed a bit above the vanilla cheapo turn-of-the-century PC and its successor. The market caught up as they matured. Selectively aiming a bit ahead of where the ordinary PC was allowed MS to refine the OSes in public, so they were ready for prime-time by the time that the market had caught up. IBM, OTOH, aimed at the thousands of boxes /it had already sold/ and so totally torpedoed its own product. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 20 12:11:13 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 18:11:13 +0100 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 20/05/2016 17:18, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: >> Last ones?! EVAR?!1one. Horrors. Don't tell Modern-Radio-Bolton otherwise >> the belts I bought recently for my Commodore C2N/1530s etc might evaporate >> in a puff of logic > > Do you have the dimensions on that belt handy? All of my Commodore > tape drives are erratic due to aged belts. I can't get good reads and > I have some PET Rabbit-format tapes to read (long ago, I digitized my > standard CBM tapes). > > I'll likely order from this side of the pond, but I just need to know > what size(s) work(s). These are the ones I bought, 80mm diameter: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301304228049 Perfect fit for both the 1530 and black C2N and I'm sure there are different sizes available for floppy drives, I'll soon be breaking out my Spectrum +3 128K and I can be almost certain that the new belt I fitted in 2001 has gone south in the intervening years. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 20 12:16:27 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 18:16:27 +0100 Subject: MINC is going to Pete Turnbull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <023f01d1b2bb$58069570$0813c050$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 20 May 2016 13:09 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: MINC is going to Pete Turnbull > > > Well, the Subject: line gives the result of by decision. I have decided (after > much thought, it was not easy!) to give the surplus MINC to Pete. I wish I had > more spare MINCs so I could give each of you one. > > Perhaps the only consolation is that there may well be other machines up for > grabs as I continue to sort out. > > Pete, we need to agree a time for collection. > > Thanks to everyone who responded. > A *very* good home, congratulations Pete, wish I had room for it. Regards Rob From austinpass at gmail.com Fri May 20 12:18:57 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 18:18:57 +0100 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone > On 20 May 2016, at 18:11, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> On 20/05/2016 17:18, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: >> >> On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Adrian Graham >> wrote: >>> Last ones?! EVAR?!1one. Horrors. Don't tell Modern-Radio-Bolton otherwise >>> the belts I bought recently for my Commodore C2N/1530s etc might evaporate >>> in a puff of logic >> >> Do you have the dimensions on that belt handy? All of my Commodore >> tape drives are erratic due to aged belts. I can't get good reads and >> I have some PET Rabbit-format tapes to read (long ago, I digitized my >> standard CBM tapes). >> >> I'll likely order from this side of the pond, but I just need to know >> what size(s) work(s). > > These are the ones I bought, 80mm diameter: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301304228049 > > Perfect fit for both the 1530 and black C2N and I'm sure there are different > sizes available for floppy drives, I'll soon be breaking out my Spectrum +3 > 128K and I can be almost certain that the new belt I fitted in 2001 has gone > south in the intervening years. > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > I bought CPC's entire remaining stock of Amstrad/Hitachi 3" drive belts in 2007. Assuming they aren't goo I can happily post you some? -Austin. From abs at absd.org Fri May 20 12:55:47 2016 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 18:55:47 +0100 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 20 May 2016 at 17:24, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 18 May 2016 at 21:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > > But, "Moore's Law" held that it wouldn't be much longer. > > Just one doubling of the speed of the Lisa's hardware would have been enough > > to silence the speed complaints. > > A general point, really. > > One of Microsoft's strokes of brilliance was selectively exploiting > this. I think maybe it learned it from the 80286 OS/2 1.x d?bacle. > > NT 3.1 was brilliant if a bit bulky and unoptimised. Fair enough, it > was a v1.0 OS. It was way way WAY too heavy for the average 1993 PC, > but power users played, partly 'cos it fixed serious problems with > Windows 3.1. > > [[make it work, ship version, then make it fast, then ship new version]] I don't know if that was a specific market ploy based on Moore's Law, or just the generally accepted practice of getting an initial version with the API working any which way, then refactoring to improve performance/correctness in later versions. I seem to recall a comment that when select() was introduced in BSD4.2 it was implemented by an in kernel loop of polling each filedescriptor so they could ship something with the API they wanted, and then in 4.3 the implementation was refactored to... how should we say... be much more performant :) From abs at absd.org Fri May 20 13:04:44 2016 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 19:04:44 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: <4771e258-6fd2-cb98-53f8-526eacd03fad@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4771e258-6fd2-cb98-53f8-526eacd03fad@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 20 May 2016 at 15:50, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-05-20 3:39 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> >> On 19/05/2016 23:10, "Sean Caron" wrote: >> ... >> My NeXT slab also hadn't been powered up for 10 years so I checked that >> one >> and all was ok, only it wasn't my slab! I picked up a load of NeXT gear >> from >> an ex-employee many years ago including a colour turbo, cube, slab and >> Elonex SCSI PC running the x86 version of NeXTSTEP (NeXTSTART by then?). >> At > > OPENSTEP? > Could be, though NeXTSTEP 3.x (for x>0) was definitely available on Intel hardware - I remember helping support a bunch of Pentium 133 "workstations" at Dreamworks running custom software under NeXTSTEP 3.3. They also mainly had Micropolis disks ("For all your data loss needs"). This combined with NeXTSTEP's baroque install process and tendency to occasionally crap out and destroy its own disk (I believe this was more of an x86 only feature), meant production support spent a fair amount of time reinstalling boxes. The solution was BSD boot floppy which asked for their pager id, then downloaded and blatted a compressed NeXTSTEP disk image onto the local disk, emailed their pager and then rebooted into a nearly complete NeXTSTEP system, so they could walk away and be pinged to come back to finish off the config some time later. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 20 13:30:04 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 14:30:04 -0400 Subject: NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP history - was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: <4771e258-6fd2-cb98-53f8-526eacd03fad@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2016-05-20 2:04 PM, David Brownlee wrote: > On 20 May 2016 at 15:50, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2016-05-20 3:39 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >>> >>> On 19/05/2016 23:10, "Sean Caron" wrote: >>> ... >>> My NeXT slab also hadn't been powered up for 10 years so I checked that >>> one >>> and all was ok, only it wasn't my slab! I picked up a load of NeXT gear >>> from >>> an ex-employee many years ago including a colour turbo, cube, slab and >>> Elonex SCSI PC running the x86 version of NeXTSTEP (NeXTSTART by then?). >>> At >> >> OPENSTEP? >> > > Could be, though NeXTSTEP 3.x (for x>0) was definitely available on > Intel hardware - I remember helping support a bunch of Pentium 133 Sure. I just hadn't heard of NeXTSTART. --Toby > "workstations" at Dreamworks running custom software under NeXTSTEP > 3.3. They also mainly had Micropolis disks ("For all your data loss > needs"). > > This combined with NeXTSTEP's baroque install process and tendency to > occasionally crap out and destroy its own disk (I believe this was > more of an x86 only feature), meant production support spent a fair > amount of time reinstalling boxes. > > The solution was BSD boot floppy which asked for their pager id, then > downloaded and blatted a compressed NeXTSTEP disk image onto the local > disk, emailed their pager and then rebooted into a nearly complete > NeXTSTEP system, so they could walk away and be pinged to come back to > finish off the config some time later. > From austinpass at gmail.com Fri May 20 13:57:06 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 19:57:06 +0100 Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: <4771e258-6fd2-cb98-53f8-526eacd03fad@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <8330E7DD-4200-4F20-9183-7D73945A490D@gmail.com> > On 20 May 2016, at 19:04, David Brownlee wrote: > > They also mainly had Micropolis disks ("For all your data loss > needs"). Drink duly spat over exterior of SPARCclassic laughing at this! I remember wondering who the $??%#<^* had brought a cement mixer into the workshop c. 1996, only to realise the noise was coming from the Micropolis 5.25" HDD in our Novell Netware 3.12 server. Nasty, nasty things. We renamed them Necropolis due to their propensity toward the data afterlife. -Austin. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 20 13:58:05 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 14:58:05 -0400 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 1:11 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 20/05/2016 17:18, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: >> Do you have the dimensions on that belt handy? All of my Commodore >> tape drives are erratic due to aged belts. > > These are the ones I bought, 80mm diameter: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301304228049 Perfect. Thanks! I didn't want to trust the exact sizes on my stretched and flabby belts. So 80mm dia/251mm length, 1.2mm across, square belt. What's odd is I'm finding plenty of UK sellers and essentially no sellers based in the States. How strange. Thanks! -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 20 14:03:46 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 12:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> Message-ID: > I don't know if that was a specific market ploy based on Moore's Law, an actually quite smart move, . . . > or just the generally accepted practice of getting an initial version > with the API working any which way, then refactoring to improve > performance/correctness in later versions. For decades, I used to rant that the biggest problem with Microsoft software was that they treated their programmers "too well". That if Microsoft programmer had space problems, they would immediately replace his machine with one with more RAM and bigger drive, and he wouldn't learn to be memory or disk space efficient. That if his programs were too slow, that they would immediately replace his machine with a faster one, and he would never learn to write fast or efficient code. If there was ever a hardware problem, they would immediately replace the machine. Accordingly, Microsoft programmers NEVER actually experienced hardware issues, and had to IMAGINE what disk errors, etc. would be like, resulting in software that couldn't properly handle them when they happened. For exaample, when SMARTDRV was causing MANY problems with write-caching (TOTAL failure and data loss if even a minor disk error occurs), Microsoft was in denial, and couldn't understand that their software needed to be able to recover, or at least sanely handle the situation when an error occurred. They did not CARE ("well, that's a hardware problem, not out problem.") that a single bad sector (unfound by SPINRITE) in the disk space occupied by the WINGBATS font, totally prevented installation of Windoze 3.10. [cf. "disk compression problems" due to SMARTDRV, and their need to replace DOS6.00 with 6.20] I used to rant that if Microsoft were to "trade machines with us", and give their programmers current or old, rather than newest, machines, that their programmers might finally learn how to write robust compact fast software. OK, so development should be targeted for next generation hardware. BUT, testing should be done with what is actually out in the real world. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From scaron at diablonet.net Fri May 20 14:08:05 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 15:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: <573E540D.5090804@oryx.us> References: <573E540D.5090804@oryx.us> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote: > +1 > > Been looking for a Crimson for about 8 years now. > > A couple have come up, but none anywhere close to me. Due to size and weight > shipping has been prohibitive. > > :( > > > Jerry > > > On 05/19/16 06:25 PM, Ian Finder wrote: >> You parted a Crimson into wall hangings just because the PSU blew? They're >> super easy to work on. >> >> Sometimes this list makes me {m,s}ad. >> > Hey, it is what it is ... I must have been 16 and my boss at the shop had an engineering background ... no stranger to board-level repair. He wasn't too keen to dive in and attempt to troubleshoot a multi-kW switcher and I honestly don't know too many guys that are. We had no idea if the boards may have been damaged in the PSU failure so even if we did put the time and effort into the PSU and did successfully manage to repair, there was no guarantee that we'd end up with a working machine. It was a bit big to haul to just be a doorstop ... I didn't see any real chance of getting a replacement PSU or repair in the immediate future. I just decided to save what I could ... the most interesting bits, and the rest, well, you can't save it all. As I say, it was a very basic machine, no RealityEngine. Really all that was in there was the CPU board and an IO3B. LG1 graphics right out of an Indigo, with a little VME interposer board. Friends and family generally consider me a packrat, but I guess even I have my limits ;) Best, Sean From austinpass at gmail.com Fri May 20 14:18:55 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 20:18:55 +0100 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8206E6CD-2930-4CB4-AB79-74E21FEB149E@gmail.com> On 20 May 2016, at 20:03, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I don't know if that was a specific market ploy based on Moore's Law, > > an actually quite smart move, . . . > >> or just the generally accepted practice of getting an initial version >> with the API working any which way, then refactoring to improve >> performance/correctness in later versions. > > For decades, I used to rant that the biggest problem with Microsoft software was that they treated their programmers "too well". > > That if Microsoft programmer had space problems, they would immediately replace his machine with one with more RAM and bigger drive, and he wouldn't learn to be memory or disk space efficient. > > That if his programs were too slow, that they would immediately replace his machine with a faster one, and he would never learn to write fast or efficient code. > > If there was ever a hardware problem, they would immediately replace the machine. Accordingly, Microsoft programmers NEVER actually experienced hardware issues, and had to IMAGINE what disk errors, etc. would be like, resulting in software that couldn't properly handle them when they happened. For exaample, when SMARTDRV was causing MANY problems with write-caching (TOTAL failure and data loss if even a minor disk error occurs), Microsoft was in denial, and couldn't understand that their software needed to be able to recover, or at least sanely handle the situation when an error occurred. > They did not CARE ("well, that's a hardware problem, not out problem.") that a single bad sector (unfound by SPINRITE) in the disk space occupied by the WINGBATS font, totally prevented installation of Windoze 3.10. > [cf. "disk compression problems" due to SMARTDRV, and their need to replace DOS6.00 with 6.20] > > > I used to rant that if Microsoft were to "trade machines with us", and give their programmers current or old, rather than newest, machines, that their programmers might finally learn how to write robust compact fast software. The rumour was that Bill Gates insisted programmers used 386's when writing Windows '95, although I'm struggling to find a single shred of evidence supporting this statement, so it may be mis-remembered fantasy. -Austin. From ethan at 757.org Fri May 20 14:38:30 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 15:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: <573E540D.5090804@oryx.us> Message-ID: > Damn, Ethan, you have had more SGI's than I have. That's freakin' saying > something, and you don't seem to mind the big ones, either. Then again, > all you British folks live in large country estates, right? :-) Bought my first Indigo from Reputable Systems. I then started to go to the auctions at NASA Langley Research Center. From there I'd pick up odds and ends, and from time to time trade some hardware for others and such. I'd sell the stuff I didn't want that was bundled into the lots (you had to buy whole lots.) Eventually I ended up working in the supercomputing facility at NASA as an IRIX admin/Solaris admin/Linux admin. When SGI shut their Hampton Va office down I ended up with some of the excess. Because it was given to me, I never sold any of it I paid it forward and gave it away to others. As my personal stuff aged I ended up giving some of it away as well, mainly Indys and such. > "Blokehappy Hollow" etc.. However, despite the name, they frequently don't > have 220v L630 twist lock whips, 3-phase power, or anything else that > makes life as a Big-SGI collector easy. :-P I used to plug the Onyx into a normal outlet, I just had it lightly loaded? I have tons of pics of stuff from them days, I just need to sort it all. The way I ended up at NASA is someone I knew from the BBS scene who also messed around in the DOS virus scene (loong story) came to visit and he saw the stacks of SGI Indys in the dining room running ISP functions and was like, "EWWW YOU LIKE THIS SHIT?" I said yea, he said give me your resume then. Boom, NASA contractor. He was pro linux anti SGI/Sun. Heh. > My favorite is actually the Tezro. I love the crossbar architecture, and > it's basically (same procs same RAM etc..) a mini Origin 3k supercomputer. > It's just a brusin' bad-dude of a graphics workstation. Stick a dmedia rig > on there and it's graphics/video heaven (even HD). The machine feels much > faster than 4x1Ghz. Even browsers run fast. To me, this is the "high art" > intersection of electrical engineering, Unix, and design-friendly > philosophy. I just need to get mine to 16GB of RAM and I'll be in > hog-heaven (a very loud fan-blown heaven, but still). I've got my Tezro > all beefed up with SSD drives too (acard 3.5" converters used and work > very nicely). Yesterday I put it on my living room coffee table to cheer > me up when I come home from work (I have no kids, dog, life, hehe). Is > that a bit much ? > > The Octane is also a really wonderful platform for many of the same > reasons as the Tezro. I don't currently own one, but I've got room for one > more SGI, and I think it'll be either a Fuel or an Octane2. I just need to > find one with skins in good condition and a decent CPU. It'll probably be > an Octane2 because the Fuel reminds me too much of a PeeCee. It's like > when Sun came out with UltraSPARCs and started in with cheapened PeeCee > sparcstations (my opinion from looking at the guts of those machines and > comparing with older machines such as the venerable SS10). Still, the > Fuels are fast and take commodity hardware very easily. Tezros look killer! I think an Origin 350 would be my other SGI. > PS: I'm never selling my SGIs unless something exceedingly horrible > happens. I've even got them in my will. I want them to go to people I > trust. etc... Nutty? Probably. Such is my life. I think I know someone that wants to be buried in his. I'm not sure if it's strange humor or not? -- Ethan O'Toole From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Fri May 20 13:18:55 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (Alex McWhirter) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 14:18:55 -0400 Subject: Hamvention Message-ID: Anyone spot anything list related at hamvention? I'm around trying to find anything cool. Particularly sun and ibm stuff. Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 20 14:44:28 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 15:44:28 -0400 Subject: Test software on machines customers actually use - was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <20160517182116.GC32157@brevard.conman.org> <61985320-5912-4B93-80F2-412F6409F45F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7f016f5b-7347-d9ab-c99b-8831541f6d89@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-20 3:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I don't know if that was a specific market ploy based on Moore's Law, > > an actually quite smart move, . . . > >> or just the generally accepted practice of getting an initial version >> with the API working any which way, then refactoring to improve >> performance/correctness in later versions. > > For decades, I used to rant that the biggest problem with Microsoft > software was that they treated their programmers "too well". > > That if Microsoft programmer had space problems, they would immediately > replace his machine with one with more RAM and bigger drive, and he > wouldn't learn to be memory or disk space efficient. > > That if his programs were too slow, that they would immediately replace > his machine with a faster one, and he would never learn to write fast or > efficient code. This is still a huge problem that afflicts web development as much as it did desktop development. Devs should have down-specced machines (say, 5+ years old) or at the very least, should be regularly testing on them. --Toby > > If there was ever a hardware problem, they would immediately replace the > machine. Accordingly, Microsoft programmers NEVER actually experienced > hardware issues, and had to IMAGINE what disk errors, etc. would be > like, resulting in software that couldn't properly handle them when they > happened. ... > > OK, so development should be targeted for next generation hardware. > BUT, testing should be done with what is actually out in the real world. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 20 15:08:51 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 14:08:51 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Classics long overdue a Boot. In-Reply-To: References: <4771e258-6fd2-cb98-53f8-526eacd03fad@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 May 2016, David Brownlee wrote: > Could be, though NeXTSTEP 3.x (for x>0) was definitely available on > Intel hardware - I remember helping support a bunch of Pentium 133 > "workstations" at Dreamworks running custom software under NeXTSTEP 3.3. I know they do, too because I've run it myself. I have a copy of 3.3. See the directory tree below my sig. You just need to select your hardware *very* carefully. > They also mainly had Micropolis disks ("For all your data loss needs"). Oh, s*** ya, those things were total garbage. I'm convinced they made them from recycled blender parts and rust to save on materials cost. I had a few throughout the years. It got to the point that if I found any in a machine, I'd just convince management to replace them before they took someone's data out of commission like a Takada airbag in a Jamaican Summer. > This combined with NeXTSTEP's baroque install process and tendency to > occasionally crap out and destroy its own disk (I believe this was more > of an x86 only feature), meant production support spent a fair amount of > time reinstalling boxes. I've experienced this. It's very easy to mess up as you say. Use a sacrificial lamb of a box with nothing you care about. I'd recommend against trying it with a virtual machine. It runs slower than a octogenarian with ankle weights in a VM for whatever reason (once you spend hours fiddling with it to get it working). -Swift Swift's NextStep 3.3 collection: |-- 3.3_Boot_Disk.floppyimage |-- NextSTEP\ 3.3\ CISC\ (Intel\ x86+Motorola\ 68k).iso |-- drivers | |-- beta | | |-- AMDPCnet32.pkg.compressed | | |-- ATIRageDisplay.pkg.compressed | | |-- Adaptec1542BSCSI.pkg.compressed | | |-- Adaptec2940SCSI.pkg.compressed | | |-- BusLogicFPSCSI.pkg.compressed | | |-- DECChip21040net.pkg.compressed | | |-- DECChip21140Net.pkg.compressed | | |-- DECChip21142Net.pkg.compressed | | |-- DECChip21x4xNet.pkg.compressed | | |-- DiamondStealth.pkg.compressed | | |-- EIDE.pkg.compressed | | |-- EISABus.pkg.compressed | | |-- ES1x88Audio.pkg.compressed | | |-- EtherExpress16.pkg.compressed | | |-- EtherLink3.pkg.compressed | | |-- EtherLinkXL.pkg.compressed | | |-- HPXU_Display.pkg.compressed | | |-- IBMTokenRing.pkg.compressed | | |-- Intel82365PCIC.pkg.compressed | | |-- Intel82557Net.pkg.compressed | | |-- Intel82595Net.pkg.compressed | | |-- MatroxMGA2064W.pkg.compressed | | |-- Num9Imagine128s2.pkg.compressed | | |-- Number9Motion331.pkg.compressed | | |-- PCMCIABus.pkg.compressed | | |-- S3GenericDisplay.pkg.compressed | | |-- S3ViRGEDisplay.pkg.compressed | | |-- SCSITape.pkg.compressed | | |-- SoundBlaster16.pkg.compressed | | |-- ThinkPad760CD.pkg.compressed | | |-- ThinkPad760ED.pkg.compressed | | |-- TridentGeneric.pkg.compressed | | |-- WD90C24Display.pkg.compressed | | |-- XircomIIps.pkg.compressed | | |-- XircomNewave.pkg.compressed | | `-- YamahaOPLAudio.pkg.compressed | `-- released | |-- AIC6X60SCSI.pkg.compressed | |-- AMDPCnet32.pkg.compressed | |-- AMD_PC_SCSI.pkg.compressed | |-- ATIMach32.pkg.compressed | |-- ATI_Mach64.pkg.compressed | |-- Adaptec2740SCSI.pkg.compressed | |-- Adaptec2940SCSI,pkg.compressed | |-- BusLogicSCSI.pkg.compressed | |-- CL_GD5434.pkg.compressed | |-- CT_Wingine_64300.pkg.compressed | |-- Compaq_QVision.pkg.compressed | |-- DECChip21040.pkg.compressed | |-- DECChip21140.pkg.compressed | |-- DPTSCSI.pkg.compressed | |-- DiamondStealth.pkg.compressed | |-- EIDE.pkg.compressed | |-- EISABus.pkg.compressed | |-- ESS1x88Audio.pkg.compressed | |-- FTGISALightPen.pkg.compressed | |-- FTGSerLightPen.pkg.compressed | |-- IBMTokenRing.pkg.compressed | |-- ISA_Serial_Port.pkg.compressed | |-- Intel82365PC.pkg.compressed | |-- Intel824x0.pkg.compressed | |-- Intel82556.pkg.compressed | |-- Intel82557Net.pkg.compressed | |-- Intel82595Net.pkg.compressed | |-- Intel82596Net.pkg.compressed | |-- Matrox_MGA_Mill.pkg.compressed | |-- MedVisionJazz16.pkg.compressed | |-- Num9GXE64Pro.pkg.compressed | |-- Num9Motion771.pkg.compressed | |-- Num9_Imagine128.pkg.compressed | |-- PCMCIABus.pkg.compressed | |-- PS2Mouse.pkg.compressed | |-- Pegasus_Display.pkg.compressed | |-- PortServer.pkg.compressed | |-- S3_Generic.pkg.compressed | |-- SMC16.pkg.compressed | |-- SMCUltra.pkg.compressed | |-- SYM53c8.pkg.compressed | |-- SerialPointer.pkg.compressed | |-- SoundBlaster16.pkg.compressed | |-- ThinkPad755CX.pkg.compressed | |-- WeitekPower9100.pkg.compressed | |-- XircomNetwave.pkg.compressed | `-- XircomPerf.pkg.compressed |-- floppies | |-- 3.2_Addl_Drivers.floppyimage | |-- 3.2_Boot_Disk.floppyimage | |-- 3.2_Moto_Boot_Disk.floppyimage | |-- 3.3_Addl_Drivers.floppyimage | |-- 3.3_Beta_Drivers.floppyimage | |-- 3.3_Boot_Disk.floppyimage | |-- 3.3_Core_Drivers.floppyimage | |-- 3.3_Driver_Disk.floppyimage | |-- 3.3_Moto_Boot_Disk.floppyimage | `-- 3.3_PCCard_Install.floppyimage `-- patches |-- 3.3_Patch_1 | |-- 3.3DeveloperPatch.pkg.tar | |-- 3.3_HP_SPARC_Patch1.pkg.tar | |-- 3.3_Int_68k_Patch1.tar | |-- 3.3_Patch1_DNS_PostInstall | `-- 3.3_Patch1_Libs_PostInstall |-- 3.3_Patch_2 | |-- NS33CISCUserPatch2.tar | |-- NS33DeveloperPatch2.tar | `-- NS33RISCUserPatch2.tar |-- 3.3_Patch_3 | |-- NS33CISCUserPatch3.tar | `-- NS33RISCUserPatch3.tar |-- FoundationUserPatch.compressed |-- NT_Printing_Patch.compressed `-- rc.cdrom From spc at conman.org Fri May 20 15:58:38 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 16:58:38 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > On 29 April 2016 at 19:49, Mouse wrote: > > > > It's true that C is easy to use unsafely. However, (a) it arose as an > > OS implementation language, for which some level of unsafeness is > > necessary, and (b) to paraphrase a famous remark about Unix, I suspect > > it is not possible to eliminate the ability to do stupid things in C > > without also eliminating the ability to do some clever things in C. > > I think that the key thing is not to offer people alternatives that > make it safer at the cost of removal of the clever stuff. It's to > offer other clever stuff instead. C is famously unreadable, and yet > most modern languages ape its syntax. By the late 80s, C was available on many different systems and was not yet standardized. The standards committee was convened in an attempt to make sense of all the various C implementations and bring some form of sanity to the market. All those "undefined" and "implementation" bits of C? Yeah, competing implementations. For instance, why is signed integer arithmetic so underspecified? So that it could run on everything from a signed-magnitude machine [1] to a pi-complement machine (with e-states per bit [2]). Also, to give C implementors a way to optimize code [3][6]. And because of the bizarre systems C can potentially run on, pointer arithmetic is ... odd as well [4]. It also doesn't help that bounds checking arrays is a manual process, but then again, it would be a manual process on most CPUs [5] anyway ... -spc (Wish the C standard committee had the balls to say "2's complement all the way, and a physical bit pattern of all 0s is a NULL pointer" ... ) [1] I think there was only one signed-magnitude CPU commercially available, ever! From the early 60s! Seriously doubt C was ever ported to that machine, but hey! It could be! [2] 2.71828 ... [3] Often to disasterous results. An agressive C optimizer can optimize the following right out: if (x + 1 < x ) { ... } Because "x+1" can *never* be less than "x" (signed overflow? What's that?) [4] Say, a C compiler an 8088. How big is a pointer? How big of an object can you point to? How much code is involved with "p++"? [5] Except for, say, the Intel 432. Automatic bounds checking on that one. [6] Trapping on signed overflow is still contentious today. While some systems can trap immediate on overflow (VAX, MIPS), the popular CPUs today can't. It's not to say they can't test for it, but that's the problem---they have to test after each possible operation. And not all instructions that manipulate values affects the overflow bit (it's not uncommon on the x86, for instance, to use an LEA instruction (which does not affect flags) to multiple a value by small constants (like 17 say) which is faster than a full multiple and probably uses fewer registers and prevents clogging the piplelines). From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 20 17:16:38 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 23:16:38 +0100 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > Dell 2007FP- > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar scalers. > > They sync to SoG, and have no trouble with oddball resolutions like > 1152x8-whatever. > > My SGI stuff can drive it at native resolution. As an added bonus, you can > disable scaling if you want black bars and native resolution. > > These are readily available for ~$35, and I have at least 6. Hi Ian (and list), Quick question, have you ever used a plain ol' composite input on yours? Turns out my problem isn't just my problem, people have been having the same issue since the screens were new - composite input just doesn't work unless it's a very specific set of circumstances. That or there's a particular setup required that isn't documented anywhere... So far I've tried: Spectrum (composite) ZX81 (composite) Raspberry Pi B Apple ][GS Amiga 1200 Amiga CD32 (this one *nearly* works, I get the splash screen) Playstation 1 (ditto) EACA VideoGenie Have you got any of those kicking around you could plug in and test for me? Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 20 17:49:36 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 16:49:36 -0600 (MDT) Subject: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 May 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > By the late 80s, C was available on many different systems and was not > yet standardized. There were lots of standards, but folks typically gravitated toward K&R or ANSI at the time. Though I was a pre-teen, I was a coder at the time. Those are pretty raw and primitive compared to C99 or C11, but still quite helpful, for me at least. Most of the other "standards" were pretty much a velvet glove around vendor-based "standards", IMHO. > The standards committee was convened in an attempt to make sense of all > the various C implementations and bring some form of sanity to the > market. I'm pretty negative on committees, in general. However, ISO and ANSI standards have worked pretty well, so I suppose they aren't totally useless _all_ the time. Remember OSI networking protocols? They had a big nasty committee for all their efforts, and we can see how that worked out. We got the "OSI model" (which basically just apes other models already well established at the time). That's about it (oh sure, a few other things like X.500 inspired protocols but I think X.500 is garbage *shrug* YMMV). Things like TPx protocols never caught on. Some would say it was because the world is so unenlightened it couldn't recognize the genius of the commisar^H^H^H committee's collective creations. I have a somewhat different viewpoint. > All those "undefined" and "implementation" bits of C? Yeah, competing > implementations. Hehe, what is a long long? Yes, you are totally right. Still, I assert that C is still the defacto most portable language on Earth. What other language runs on as many OS's and CPUs ? None that I can think of. > And because of the bizarre systems C can potentially run on, pointer > arithmetic is ... odd as well [4]. Yeah, it's kind of an extension of the same issue, too many undefined grey areas. In practice, I don't run into these types of issues much. However, to be fair, I typically code on only about 3 different platforms, and they are pretty similar and "modern" (BSD, Linux, IRIX). > It also doesn't help that bounds checking arrays is a manual process, > but then again, it would be a manual process on most CPUs [5] anyway ... I'm in the "please don't do squat for me that I don't ask for" camp. I know that horrifies and disgusts some folks who want GC and auto-bounds checking everywhere they can cram it in. Would SSA form aid with all kinds of fancy compiler optimizations, including some magic bounds checking? Sure. However, perhaps because I'm typical of an ignorant C coder, I would expect the cost of any such feature would be unacceptable to some. Also, there are plenty of C variants or special compilers that can do such things. Also, there are a few things that can be run with LD_PRELOAD which can help to find issues where someone has forgot to do proper bounds checking. Once people get on the "C sucks, put on some baby gates" bus, most of the actual working C coders get off at the next stop. Not judging, just observing. I've seen this over and over and over and ... > -spc (Wish the C standard committee had the balls to say "2's complement > all the way, and a physical bit pattern of all 0s is a NULL pointer" > ... ) I'm right there with you on this one! > Because "x+1" can *never* be less than "x" (signed overflow? What's > that?) Hmm, well, people (me included in days gone by) tend to abuse signed scalars to simply get bigger integers. I really wish folks would embrace uintXX_t style ints ... problem solved, IMHO. It's right there for them in C99 to use. > Except for, say, the Intel 432. Automatic bounds checking on that one. You can't always rely on the hardware, but perhaps that's your point. > Trapping on signed overflow is still contentious today. While some > systems can trap immediate on overflow (VAX, MIPS), the popular CPUs > today can't. Hmmm, well I'm guessing most compilers on those platforms would support that (and hey, great!). > It's not to say they can't test for it, but that's the problem---they > have to test after each possible operation. That's almost always the case when folks want rubber bumpers on C. That's really emblematic of my issues with that seemly instinctual reaction some folks have to C. -Swift From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri May 20 19:05:03 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 17:05:03 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I mostly use the display for its fantastic handling and scaling of RGB formats via the VGA connector. I collect mostly old workstation class hardware and I care a lot about image quality. I'm not much of a microcomputer collector, and have used the composite input very, very sparingly. However, I have had enough issues in the past with the composite video "standard" on various non-analog CRT display devices that I keep a timebase corrector nearby and readily available. I find this a "must" for anyone relying on composite stuff in this day and age. I can try a IIgs- the only things I've tried over composite, I listed in the other post. Cheers, - Ian On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > > Dell 2007FP- > > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar > scalers. > > > > They sync to SoG, and have no trouble with oddball resolutions like > > 1152x8-whatever. > > > > My SGI stuff can drive it at native resolution. As an added bonus, you > can > > disable scaling if you want black bars and native resolution. > > > > These are readily available for ~$35, and I have at least 6. > > Hi Ian (and list), > > Quick question, have you ever used a plain ol' composite input on yours? > Turns out my problem isn't just my problem, people have been having the > same > issue since the screens were new - composite input just doesn't work unless > it's a very specific set of circumstances. That or there's a particular > setup required that isn't documented anywhere... > > So far I've tried: > > Spectrum (composite) > ZX81 (composite) > Raspberry Pi B > Apple ][GS > Amiga 1200 > Amiga CD32 (this one *nearly* works, I get the splash screen) > Playstation 1 (ditto) > EACA VideoGenie > > Have you got any of those kicking around you could plug in and test for me? > > Cheers, > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri May 20 19:08:02 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 17:08:02 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I will do some tests of the composite input this weekend with and without TBC and see what I find. I'll have to do a bit of digging for composite devices but I should have a few. On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > I mostly use the display for its fantastic handling and scaling of RGB > formats via the VGA connector. > I collect mostly old workstation class hardware and I care a lot about > image quality. > > I'm not much of a microcomputer collector, and have used the composite > input very, very sparingly. > > However, I have had enough issues in the past with the composite video > "standard" on various non-analog CRT display devices that I keep a timebase > corrector nearby and readily available. I find this a "must" for anyone > relying on composite stuff in this day and age. > > I can try a IIgs- the only things I've tried over composite, I listed in > the other post. > > Cheers, > > - Ian > > On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Adrian Graham < > witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: >> >> > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the >> > Dell 2007FP- >> > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. >> > >> > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. >> > >> > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar >> scalers. >> > >> > They sync to SoG, and have no trouble with oddball resolutions like >> > 1152x8-whatever. >> > >> > My SGI stuff can drive it at native resolution. As an added bonus, you >> can >> > disable scaling if you want black bars and native resolution. >> > >> > These are readily available for ~$35, and I have at least 6. >> >> Hi Ian (and list), >> >> Quick question, have you ever used a plain ol' composite input on yours? >> Turns out my problem isn't just my problem, people have been having the >> same >> issue since the screens were new - composite input just doesn't work >> unless >> it's a very specific set of circumstances. That or there's a particular >> setup required that isn't documented anywhere... >> >> So far I've tried: >> >> Spectrum (composite) >> ZX81 (composite) >> Raspberry Pi B >> Apple ][GS >> Amiga 1200 >> Amiga CD32 (this one *nearly* works, I get the splash screen) >> Playstation 1 (ditto) >> EACA VideoGenie >> >> Have you got any of those kicking around you could plug in and test for >> me? >> >> Cheers, >> >> -- >> Adrian/Witchy >> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >> collection? >> >> >> > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From tingox at gmail.com Fri May 20 19:49:05 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 02:49:05 +0200 Subject: Passing of R. Tomlinson In-Reply-To: <20160520004133.GC4727@gmail.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED249D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160520004133.GC4727@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 2:41 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > OH! He invented the at sign! > > ;) More or less funny names for the commercial at-sign: in Norwegian: kr?ll-alfa ("curled alpha") in Swedish: kanelbulle ("cinnamon bun"?) :-) -- Regards, Torfinn From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:11:47 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 21:11:47 -0400 Subject: Passing of R. Tomlinson References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED249D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160520004133.GC4727@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not one of Kodi's better nights... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Torfinn Ingolfsen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 8:49 PM Subject: Re: Passing of R. Tomlinson On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 2:41 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > OH! He invented the at sign! > > ;) More or less funny names for the commercial at-sign: in Norwegian: kr?ll-alfa ("curled alpha") in Swedish: kanelbulle ("cinnamon bun"?) :-) -- Regards, Torfinn From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 20 20:12:03 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 18:12:03 -0700 Subject: Passing of R. Tomlinson In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED249D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160520004133.GC4727@gmail.com> Message-ID: <573FB5E3.4020600@sydex.com> On 05/20/2016 05:49 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 2:41 AM, Eric Christopherson > wrote: >> OH! He invented the at sign! >> >> ;) > > More or less funny names for the commercial at-sign: in Norwegian: > kr?ll-alfa ("curled alpha") in Swedish: kanelbulle ("cinnamon bun"?) > :-) Another very interesting term to file away with German "Gaensefuesschen" for quotation marks (usually the << and >> ones). "Little goose feet". --Chuck From spc at conman.org Fri May 20 20:19:32 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 21:19:32 -0400 Subject: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: > On Fri, 20 May 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > > By the late 80s, C was available on many different systems and was not > > yet standardized. > > There were lots of standards, but folks typically gravitated toward K&R or > ANSI at the time. Though I was a pre-teen, I was a coder at the time. > Those are pretty raw and primitive compared to C99 or C11, but still quite > helpful, for me at least. Most of the other "standards" were pretty much a > velvet glove around vendor-based "standards", IMHO. In 1988, C had yet to be standardized. In 1989, ANSI released the first C standard, commonly called ANSI C or C89. I stared C programming in 1990, so I started out with ANSI C pretty much from the start. I found I prefer ANSI-C over K&R (pre-ANSI C), because the compiler can catch more errors. > > The standards committee was convened in an attempt to make sense of all > > the various C implementations and bring some form of sanity to the > > market. > > I'm pretty negative on committees, in general. However, ISO and ANSI > standards have worked pretty well, so I suppose they aren't totally > useless _all_ the time. > > Remember OSI networking protocols? They had a big nasty committee for all > their efforts, and we can see how that worked out. We got the "OSI model" > (which basically just apes other models already well established at the > time). That's about it (oh sure, a few other things like X.500 inspired > protocols but I think X.500 is garbage *shrug* YMMV). Things like TPx > protocols never caught on. Some would say it was because the world is so > unenlightened it couldn't recognize the genius of the commisar^H^H^H > committee's collective creations. I have a somewhat different viewpoint. The difference between the two? ANSI codified existing examples where as ISO created a standard in a vacuum and expected people to write implementaitons to the standard. > > All those "undefined" and "implementation" bits of C? Yeah, competing > > implementations. > > Hehe, what is a long long? Yes, you are totally right. Still, I assert > that C is still the defacto most portable language on Earth. What other > language runs on as many OS's and CPUs ? None that I can think of. A long long is at least 64-bits long. And Lua can run on as many OSs and CPUs as C. > > And because of the bizarre systems C can potentially run on, pointer > > arithmetic is ... odd as well [4]. > > Yeah, it's kind of an extension of the same issue, too many undefined grey > areas. In practice, I don't run into these types of issues much. However, > to be fair, I typically code on only about 3 different platforms, and they > are pretty similar and "modern" (BSD, Linux, IRIX). Just be thankful you never had to program C in the 80s and early 90s: http://www.digitalmars.com/ctg/ctgMemoryModel.html Oh, wait a second ... http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2012/01/03/understanding-the-x64-code-models > > It also doesn't help that bounds checking arrays is a manual process, > > but then again, it would be a manual process on most CPUs [5] anyway ... > > I'm in the "please don't do squat for me that I don't ask for" camp. What's wrong with the following code? p = malloc(sizeof(somestruct) * count_of_items); Spot the bug yet? Here's the answer: it can overflow. But that's okay, because sizeof() returns an unsiged quantity, and count_of_items *should* be an unsigned quantity (both size_t) and overflow on unsigned quantities *is* defined to wrap (it's signed quantities that are undefined). But that's *still* a problem because if "sizeof(somestruvt) * count_of_items" exceeds the size of a size_t, then the result is *smaller* than expected and you get a valid pointer back, but to smaller pool of memory that expected. This may not be an issue on 64-bit systems (yet), but it can be on a 32-bit system. Correct system code (in C99) would be: if (count_of_items > (SIZE_MAX / sizeof(somestruct))) error(); p = malloc(sizeof(somestruct) * count_of_items); Oooh ... that reminds me ... I have some code to check ... > I know that horrifies and disgusts some folks who want GC and auto-bounds > checking everywhere they can cram it in. Would SSA form aid with all kinds > of fancy compiler optimizations, including some magic bounds checking? > Sure. However, perhaps because I'm typical of an ignorant C coder, I would > expect the cost of any such feature would be unacceptable to some. Don't discount GC though---it simplifies a lot of code > Also, > there are plenty of C variants or special compilers that can do such > things. Also, there are a few things that can be run with LD_PRELOAD which > can help to find issues where someone has forgot to do proper bounds > checking. I'm generally not a fan of shared libraries as: 1) Unless you are linking against a library like libc or libc++, a lot of memory will be wasted because the *entire* library is loaded up, unlike linking to a static library where only those functions actually used are linked into the final executable 2) because of 1, you have a huge surface area exposed that can be exploited. If function foo() is buggy but your program doesn't call foo(), in a static compile, foo() is not even in memory; with a dynamically loaded library, foo() is in memory, waiting to be called [1]. 3) It's slower. Two reasons for this: 3a) It's linking at runtime instead of compile time. Yes, there are mechanisms to mitigate this, like lazy runtime linking (where a routine isn't resolved until it's called for the first time) but that only helps over the long term---it *still* has to be resolved at some point. 3b) Not all CPUs have PC (program counter) relative modes (like the relatively obscure and little used x86---ha ha) and because of this, extra codes needs to be included to do the indirection. So, your call to printf() is not: call printf but more like: call printf at plt printf at plt: jmp shared_lib_printf where printf at plt is constructed at runtime, *for every call in a shared library*. This indirection adds up. Worse, global data in a shared library becomes a multi-pointer-dereference mess. To see how silly this can be on a modern Linux system, run % ldd pick-your-executable for each process running and see just how many of those "shared" libraries are actually shared (in addition to the potential attack surface). > > Because "x+1" can *never* be less than "x" (signed overflow? What's > > that?) > > Hmm, well, people (me included in days gone by) tend to abuse signed > scalars to simply get bigger integers. I really wish folks would embrace > uintXX_t style ints ... problem solved, IMHO. It's right there for them in > C99 to use. Um, see the above malloc() example---it's not fixed there. I use the uintXX_t types for interoperability---known file formats and network protocols, and the plain (or known types like size_t) otherwise. > > Except for, say, the Intel 432. Automatic bounds checking on that one. > > You can't always rely on the hardware, but perhaps that's your point. It was a joke. Have you actually looked into the Intel 432? Granted, there's not much about it on the Internet, but it was slow. And it was slow even if you programmed in assembly! > > It's not to say they can't test for it, but that's the problem---they > > have to test after each possible operation. > > That's almost always the case when folks want rubber bumpers on C. That's > really emblematic of my issues with that seemly instinctual reaction some > folks have to C. You miss the point. I mean, an expression like: y = 17 * x + 5 can't be optimized: mov edx,eax shl eax,4 lea ecx,[eax+edx+5] but has to be: imul eax,17 jo error ; [2] add eax,5 jo error For some perspective on this, there are two blogs I would recommend. The first is "programming in the twenty-first century": http://prog21.dadgum.com/ and the second on compiling and optimizing C code: http://blog.regehr.org/ -spc (Sigh---called into work to debug a production problem with C and Lua) [1] How can a program that doesn't call foo() be enticed with calling foo()? Return-oriented programming. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return-oriented_programming [2] Using INTO is slow: http://boston.conman.org/2015/09/05.2 while JO isn't: http://boston.conman.org/2015/09/07.1 mainly because JO can be branch-predicted and so the overhead of the actual JO instruction is practically zero. On the other hand, the fact that you have to use JO means more code, which could increase presure on the I-cache, *and* you have to use instructions which set the O flag (LEA does not). It's this (having to use instructions to set the O flag) that cause perhaps as much as a 5% penalty (worse case), depending upon the code. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri May 20 21:36:02 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 22:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > -spc (Wish the C standard committee had the balls to say "2's > complement all the way, and a physical bit pattern of all 0s is a > NULL pointer" ... ) As far as I'm concerned, this is different only in degree from `Wish the C standard committee had the balls to say "Everything is x86".'. > [3] Often to disasterous results. An agressive C optimizer can > optimize the following right out: > if (x + 1 < x ) { ... } > Because "x+1" can *never* be less than "x" (signed overflow? > What's that?) More precisely, because signed overflow invokes undefined behaviour, meaning that, for values of x where x+1 overflows, the program can behave in any way whatever and still be within spec. Including, say, skipping the stuff inside the { } block. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri May 20 21:49:23 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 22:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201605210249.WAA18561@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm generally not a fan of shared libraries as: > 1) Unless you are linking against a library like libc or > libc++, a lot of memory will be wasted because the *entire* > library is loaded up, unlike linking to a static library where > only those functions actually used are linked into the final > executable Yes and no. (Caveat: the following discussion assumes a number of things which are true in currently-common implementations; in cases where they are false, the balance may well tip the other way.) First, except for pages touched by dynamic linking (which should be very few if the library was built properly), the library is shared among all copies of it in use. In a statically linked program, this is true only across a single executable, with shared objects, it is true across all executables linked with that library. Second, even if the executable is the only one using the library, most of it is demand-paged, occupying no physical memory unless/until it's referenced. (It still occupies virtual memory; if virtual memory is tight - eg, you're doing gigabyte-sized datasets on a 32-bit machine - then this can matter.) > 2) because of 1, you have a huge surface area exposed that can > be exploited. True. Also, it exposes more attack surface in another way: it means there are two files, not one, the modification of which can subvert the application. (The executable itself and the shared object.) Add one more for each additional shared object used. > 3) It's slower. Two reasons for this: Even to the extent this is true, in most cases, "so what"? Most executables are not performance-critical enough for dynamic-linker overhead to matter. (For the few that are, or for the few cases where lots are, yes, static linking can help.) > I use the uintXX_t types for interoperability---known file formats > and network protocols, and the plain (or known types like size_t) > otherwise. uintXX_t does not help much with "known file formats and network protocols". You have to either still serialize and deserialize manually - or blindly hope your compiler adds no padding bits (eg, that it lays out your structs exactly the way you hope it will). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spc at conman.org Fri May 20 22:18:43 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 23:18:43 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: > > -spc (Wish the C standard committee had the balls to say "2's > > complement all the way, and a physical bit pattern of all 0s is a > > NULL pointer" ... ) > > As far as I'm concerned, this is different only in degree from `Wish > the C standard committee had the balls to say "Everything is x86".'. First off, can you supply a list of architectures that are NOT 2's complement integer math that are still made and in active use today? As far as I can tell, there was only one signed-magnitude architecture ever commercially available (and that in the early 60s) and only a few 1's complement architectures from the 60s (possibly up to the early 70s) that *might* still be in active use. Second, are there any architectures still commercially available and used today where an all-zero bit pattern for an address *cannot* be used as NULL? Because it comes across as strange where: char *p = (char *)0; is legal (that is, p will be assigned the NULL address for that platform which may not be all-zero bits) whereas: char *p; memset(&p,0,sizeof(p)); isn't (p is not guarenteed to be a proper NULL pointer) [1]. My wish covers yes, the x86, but also covers the 68k, MIPS, SPARC, PowerPC and ARM. Are there any others I missed? -spc (Also, the only portable exit codes are EXIT_SUCCESS and EXIT_FAILRE [2][3]) [1] I know *why* this happens, but try to explain this to someone who hasn't had *any* exposure to a non-byte, non-2's complement, non-8-32-64bit system. [2] From my understanding, it's DEC that mandated these instead of 0 and 1, because VMS used a different interpretation of exit codes than everybody else ... [3] I only bring this up because you seem to be assuming my position is "all the world's on x86" when it's not (the world is "2's complement byte oriented machines"). And because of this, I checked some of your C code and I noticed you used 0 and 1 as exit codes, which, pedantically speaking, isn't portable. Yes, I'll admit this might be a low blow here ... From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 20 22:50:30 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 23:50:30 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > First off, can you supply a list of architectures that are NOT 2's > complement integer math that are still made and in active use today? As far > as I can tell, there was only one signed-magnitude architecture ever > commercially available (and that in the early 60s) and only a few 1's > complement architectures from the 60s (possibly up to the early 70s) that > *might* still be in active use. There are probably a couple hundred Unisys 2200 systems left in the world (no one really knows the true number). Of course, when the C standards were being drawn up, there were many more, with a small but significant share of the mainframe market. -- Will (C sucks) From spc at conman.org Fri May 20 22:58:23 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 23:58:23 -0400 Subject: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <201605210249.WAA18561@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210249.WAA18561@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160521035823.GD15363@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: > > > 3) It's slower. Two reasons for this: > > Even to the extent this is true, in most cases, "so what"? > > Most executables are not performance-critical enough for dynamic-linker > overhead to matter. (For the few that are, or for the few cases where > lots are, yes, static linking can help.) I keep telling myself that whenever I launch Firefox after a reboot ... > > I use the uintXX_t types for interoperability---known file formats > > and network protocols, and the plain (or known types like size_t) > > otherwise. > > uintXX_t does not help much with "known file formats and network > protocols". You have to either still serialize and deserialize > manually - or blindly hope your compiler adds no padding bits (eg, that > it lays out your structs exactly the way you hope it will). First off, the C standard mandates that the order of fields in a struct cannot be reordered, so that just leaves padding and byte order to deal with. Now, it may sound cavalier of me, but of the three compilers I use at work (gcc, clang, Solaris Sun Works thingy) I know how to get them to layout the structs exactly as I need them (and it doesn't hurt that for the files and protocols we deal with are generally properly aligned anyway for those systems that can't deal with misaligned reads (generally everything *BUT* the x86)) and that we keep everything in network byte order. [1] -spc [1] Sorry Rob Pike [2], but compilers aren't quite smart enough [3] yet. [2] https://commandcenter.blogspot.com/2012/04/byte-order-fallacy.html [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3796432 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri May 20 23:54:24 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 23:54:24 -0500 Subject: Passing of R. Tomlinson In-Reply-To: <573FB5E3.4020600@sydex.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED249D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160520004133.GC4727@gmail.com> <573FB5E3.4020600@sydex.com> Message-ID: 100 yrs ago people gather around sign boards to get the latest and word would spread from that. News papers used to print several times a day in that time as well amazing how computers changed things that fast :) On May 20, 2016 8:12 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 05/20/2016 05:49 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > > On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 2:41 AM, Eric Christopherson > > wrote: > >> OH! He invented the at sign! > >> > >> ;) > > > > More or less funny names for the commercial at-sign: in Norwegian: > > kr?ll-alfa ("curled alpha") in Swedish: kanelbulle ("cinnamon bun"?) > > :-) > > Another very interesting term to file away with German "Gaensefuesschen" > for quotation marks (usually the << and >> ones). > > "Little goose feet". > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 21 00:12:13 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 22:12:13 -0700 Subject: Passing of R. Tomlinson In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED249D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160520004133.GC4727@gmail.com> <573FB5E3.4020600@sydex.com> Message-ID: <573FEE2D.4010204@sydex.com> On 05/20/2016 09:54 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > 100 yrs ago people gather around sign boards to get the latest and > word would spread from that. News papers used to print several times > a day in that time as well amazing how computers changed things that > fast :) Unfortunately, the larger volume of information seems not to have improved the general mental condition. Kind of like today's television--lots of channels, mostly not worth watching. --Chuck From spc at conman.org Sat May 21 00:14:50 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 01:14:50 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great William Donzelli once stated: > > First off, can you supply a list of architectures that are NOT 2's > > complement integer math that are still made and in active use today? As far > > as I can tell, there was only one signed-magnitude architecture ever > > commercially available (and that in the early 60s) and only a few 1's > > complement architectures from the 60s (possibly up to the early 70s) that > > *might* still be in active use. > > There are probably a couple hundred Unisys 2200 systems left in the > world (no one really knows the true number). Of course, when the C > standards were being drawn up, there were many more, with a small but > significant share of the mainframe market. Oh my! I'm reading the manual for the C compiler for the Unisys 2200 [1] system and it's dated 2013! And yes, it does appear to be a 36-bit non-byte addressable system. Wow! I am finding chapter 14 ("Strategies for Writing Efficient Code") amusing ("don't use pointers!" "don't use loops!") I suppose this is 1's complement but I see nothing about that in the manual, nor do I see any system limits (like INT_MAX, CHAR_MAX, etc). -spc (Color me surprised!) [1] https://public.support.unisys.com/2200/docs/cp15.0/pdf/78310430-016.pdf From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 21 00:16:32 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 22:16:32 -0700 Subject: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <201605210249.WAA18561@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210249.WAA18561@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <573FEF30.8080700@sydex.com> Oh, foo--in 40 years, "C" will be just a quaint recollection in the minds of the old-timers. Like JOVIAL. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat May 21 00:16:44 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 00:16:44 -0500 Subject: Passing of R. Tomlinson In-Reply-To: <573FEE2D.4010204@sydex.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED249D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160520004133.GC4727@gmail.com> <573FB5E3.4020600@sydex.com> <573FEE2D.4010204@sydex.com> Message-ID: People insulting me cause of a issue with how my brain articulates in the written word is sure getting tireing On May 21, 2016 12:14 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 05/20/2016 09:54 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > 100 yrs ago people gather around sign boards to get the latest and > > word would spread from that. News papers used to print several times > > a day in that time as well amazing how computers changed things that > > fast :) > > Unfortunately, the larger volume of information seems not to have > improved the general mental condition. > > Kind of like today's television--lots of channels, mostly not worth > watching. > > --Chuck > > From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri May 20 17:59:06 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 18:59:06 -0400 Subject: MINC is going to Pete Turnbull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Op 20 mei 2016 8:12 a.m. schreef "tony duell" : > > > Well, the Subject: line gives the result of by decision. I have decided (after > much thought, it was not easy!) to give the surplus MINC to Pete. I wish I had > more spare MINCs so I could give each of you one. Perfect. Thanks for letting us know. Camiel. From lars at nocrew.org Sat May 21 01:18:15 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 08:18:15 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> (Sean Conner's message of "Sat, 21 May 2016 01:14:50 -0400") References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <86bn40j5nc.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Sean Conner writes: > It was thus said that the Great William Donzelli once stated: >> There are probably a couple hundred Unisys 2200 systems left in the >> world > I suppose this is 1's complement but I see nothing about that in the > manual Aka UNISYS 1100/2200, aka ClearPath ix, aka ClearPath OS 2200. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIVAC_1100/2200_series From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat May 21 01:21:45 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 07:21:45 +0100 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5"LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 21/05/2016 01:08, "Ian Finder" wrote: > I will do some tests of the composite input this weekend with and without > TBC and see what I find. > I'll have to do a bit of digging for composite devices but I should have a > few. > Brilliant, thanks! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 21 01:35:45 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 07:35:45 +0100 Subject: MINC is going to Pete Turnbull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007601d1b32b$01c04b00$0540e100$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Camiel > Vanderhoeven > Sent: 20 May 2016 23:59 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: MINC is going to Pete Turnbull > > Op 20 mei 2016 8:12 a.m. schreef "tony duell" : > > > > > > Well, the Subject: line gives the result of by decision. I have decided > (after > > much thought, it was not easy!) to give the surplus MINC to Pete. I wish > I had > > more spare MINCs so I could give each of you one. > > Perfect. Thanks for letting us know. > > Camiel. Excellent, Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat May 21 06:24:37 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 07:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> -spc (Wish the C standard committee had the balls to say "2's >>> complement all the way, and a physical bit pattern of all 0s is a >>> NULL pointer" ... ) >> As far as I'm concerned, this is different only in degree from `Wish >> the C standard committee had the balls to say "Everything is x86".'. > First off, can you supply a list of architectures that are NOT 2's > complement integer math that are still made and in active use today? > Second, are there any architectures still commercially available and > used today where an all-zero bit pattern for an address *cannot* be > used as NULL? What's the relevance? You think the C spec should tie itself to the idiosyncracies of today's popular architectures? > [3] I only bring this up because you seem to be assuming my > position is "all the world's on x86" No, I don't think that's your position. I'm using that as a satirical exaggeration of your position. If I'd been writing this twenty years ago, I would have written "VAX" instead, because that was the machine widely assumed at the time. > And because of this, I checked some of your C code and I > noticed you used 0 and 1 as exit codes, which, pedantically > speaking, isn't portable. %SYSTEM-W-NORMAL, normal successful completion. My code makes no pretense to portability to all dialects of C. (Well, most of it; there might be a little that is supposed to be that portable, but I can't think of anything offhand.) Besides exit codes, I assume ints are relatively large (a significant fraction of my code will explode badly on <32-bit ints) and that the underlying system is basically Unix. Some of it should work on anything POSIX. Relatively little of it will work on non-POSIX C implementations. Some of it even calls for NetBSD with my patches applied (eg, anything depending on AF_TIMER sockets). > Yes, I'll admit this might be a low blow here ... Perhaps. But I don't see it as relevant. It's a long way from "much of my code is restricted to $CLASS_OF_ENVIRONMENTS" to "I think the C standard should write off anything outside $CLASS_OF_ENVIRONMENTS". /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sat May 21 06:29:34 2016 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 07:29:34 -0400 Subject: MSI 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e801d1b354$0d662dc0$28328940$@sc.rr.com> Hi Brad, I found these two links. I hope they help. < http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=732> < http://www.hinkles.us/chuckbo/MSI-6800/index.htm> Take care my friend. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 10:31 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: MSI 6800 > > > > Hi there, > I have acquired an MSI 6800 (SS50) computer and am trying to figure out how to get it going. I am reaching out everywhere hoping to > find someone with knowledge of these as I have searched around extensively and cannot find a manual. > With a null modem cable connected to a PC I can get a response from the computer by typing things or resetting it, but the output is > garbled. I know the baud rate but at present have no way to determine the other settings like bit, parity, etc. > Any help/advice would be appreciated! > Brad > Sent from my Samsung device From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat May 21 06:33:36 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 07:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <20160521035823.GD15363@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210249.WAA18561@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521035823.GD15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201605211133.HAA05318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Most executables are not performance-critical enough for >> dynamic-linker overhead to matter. (For the few that are, or for >> the few cases where lots are, yes, static linking can help.) > I keep telling myself that whenever I launch Firefox after a reboot > ... Do you have reason to think dynamic-linker overhead is a perceptible fraction of that delay? >> [file formats and protocols] > First off, the C standard mandates that the order of fields in a > struct cannot be reordered, Yes. (I think this is a Bad Thing, but I can see why they did it.) > so that just leaves padding and byte order to deal with. And data type size. (To pick a simple example, if your bytes are nonets, you will have an interesting time generating an octet stream by overlaying a struct onto a buffer.) And alignment. Not all protocols and file formats place every datatype at naturally-aligned boundaries in the octet stream. > Now, it may sound cavalier of me, but of the three compilers I use at > work (gcc, clang, Solaris Sun Works thingy) I know how to get them to > layout the structs exactly as I need them Great. ...for code that doesn't mind writing off portability to other, including future, hardware and compilers. I still don't see why you're citing "it works for my work environment" as justification for "the C standard should write off anything else". /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 21 07:42:02 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 14:42:02 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 21 May 2016 at 07:14, Sean Conner wrote: > > Oh my! I'm reading the manual for the C compiler for the Unisys 2200 [1] > system and it's dated 2013! And yes, it does appear to be a 36-bit non-byte > addressable system. And you can run the OS free of charge on high-end x86 kit: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/31/free_x86_mainframes_for_all_virtual_mainframes_that_is/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 21 10:33:54 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 11:33:54 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > Wow! Unisys is still making new machines as well. -- Will From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 21 10:50:18 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 16:50:18 +0100 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5"LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: <20160517063122.5A16A2073EA8@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <20160517063122.5A16A2073EA8@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <02dd01d1b378$794382d0$6bca8870$@ntlworld.com> I tried the Dell on my Rainbow, but unfortunately it did not work. Looks like I would need the scan doubler that was mentioned. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 17 May 2016 07:31 > To: Ian Finder ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 > 26.5"LCD monitor 1920x1920 > > I?ll let you know in a few days when I get back home. > > Regards > > Rob > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Ian Finder > Sent: 16 May 2016 23:48 > To: Jarratt RMA; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 > 26.5"LCD monitor 1920x1920 > > Addendum- > > This thread (http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=44692) seems > to indicate the 2007FP CAN do 15hkz on the VGA / RGB input... so maybe > you're all good. Anyone here want to test? > > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > This post: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-16744.html > Seems to indicate that the Rainbow is a 15khz sync signal, more akin to > normal interlaced video- which I called out in my other post as being the > one type of signal that doesn't always work for these displays. > > You may find success using a GBS-8220 scan-doubler, (ebay, c. $28 > USD), perhaps with a sync-strainer circuit to feed the SoG signal to the Scan > Doubler as composite sync, if it doesn't work directly with the 2007FP. > > Curious to hear what you figure out. > > > > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Jarratt RMA > wrote: > > > > > On 16 May 2016 at 22:52 Adrian Graham > > > > wrote: > > > > > > On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > > > > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro > >stuff is the > > > Dell 2007FP- > > > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > > > > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > > > > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very > >stellar > > > scalers. > > > > In fact there was one available for ukp35 so it's now mine. I > >remember these > > monitors from a few years ago at a customer that specialised in > >video for > > aeroplanes, I used one not quite daily but remember being irked at > >the time > > that it was several button presses needed to get from VGA to DVI > >input, > > hahaha. > > > > > He had another one at that price (the last one apparently), so I have bagged > that one. I tried my Viewsonic, which does SoG, on my Rainbow at the > weekend, but that didn't work, perhaps this will. Even if it doesn't it will still > be a good second monitor for my everyday PC. > > Regards > > Rob > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 21 10:54:01 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 17:54:01 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 21 May 2016 at 17:33, William Donzelli wrote: > Unisys is still making new machines as well. Yes it is, but they are x86 boxes running an emulator. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/05/26/unisys_finally_weans_itself_off_cmos_chippery/ AFAIK only IBM is still making actual hardware mainframe processors. The handful of other remaining vendors are all using software emulation on generic x86 hardware. High-end hardware, sure, yes. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 21 10:58:20 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 11:58:20 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: Yes, I know - but so what? That is nothing new. The IBM 9370 line from 20-odd years ago was really an 801 inside, running S/370 in emulation. -- Will On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 21 May 2016 at 17:33, William Donzelli wrote: >> Unisys is still making new machines as well. > > > Yes it is, but they are x86 boxes running an emulator. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/05/26/unisys_finally_weans_itself_off_cmos_chippery/ > > AFAIK only IBM is still making actual hardware mainframe processors. > The handful of other remaining vendors are all using software > emulation on generic x86 hardware. High-end hardware, sure, yes. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat May 21 10:59:36 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 08:59:36 -0700 Subject: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <201605211133.HAA05318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210249.WAA18561@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521035823.GD15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211133.HAA05318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5AAAA194-93F3-4238-9BFB-70A9A5E4014D@shiresoft.com> > On May 21, 2016, at 4:33 AM, Mouse wrote: > >>> Most executables are not performance-critical enough for >>> dynamic-linker overhead to matter. (For the few that are, or for >>> the few cases where lots are, yes, static linking can help.) >> I keep telling myself that whenever I launch Firefox after a reboot >> ... > > Do you have reason to think dynamic-linker overhead is a perceptible > fraction of that delay? > >>> [file formats and protocols] >> First off, the C standard mandates that the order of fields in a >> struct cannot be reordered, > > Yes. (I think this is a Bad Thing, but I can see why they did it.) Given that C is a systems implementation language, how would you define HW related data structures where the order of the fields is critical (ie HW defines them). > >> so that just leaves padding and byte order to deal with. > > And data type size. (To pick a simple example, if your bytes are > nonets, you will have an interesting time generating an octet stream by > overlaying a struct onto a buffer.) > > And alignment. Not all protocols and file formats place every datatype > at naturally-aligned boundaries in the octet stream. That?s why there are #pragmas and other compiler directives (i.e. ?packed?) to handle this. > >> Now, it may sound cavalier of me, but of the three compilers I use at >> work (gcc, clang, Solaris Sun Works thingy) I know how to get them to >> layout the structs exactly as I need them > > Great. ...for code that doesn't mind writing off portability to other, > including future, hardware and compilers. > > I still don't see why you're citing "it works for my work environment" > as justification for "the C standard should write off anything else?. My biggest complaint about the C standard is that the order that bits within a bit field are compiler defined. This basically means that they are completely unusable for anything that requires interoperability. TTFN - Guy From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 21 11:22:50 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 18:22:50 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 21 May 2016 at 17:58, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, I know - but so what? That is nothing new. The IBM 9370 line from > 20-odd years ago was really an 801 inside, running S/370 in emulation. I thought it was noteworthy considering that this subthread originated in discussion of how all contemporary processors conformed to certain norms. This example of one that doesn't -- a 36-bit processor which doesn't use 2's complement and so on -- today exists only as a software emulation on an underlying architecture that /does/ conform and which thus doesn't really resemble the architecture being emulated. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From scaron at diablonet.net Sat May 21 11:37:53 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 12:37:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > On 21 May 2016 at 07:14, Sean Conner wrote: >> >> Oh my! I'm reading the manual for the C compiler for the Unisys 2200 [1] >> system and it's dated 2013! And yes, it does appear to be a 36-bit non-byte >> addressable system. > > > And you can run the OS free of charge on high-end x86 kit: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/31/free_x86_mainframes_for_all_virtual_mainframes_that_is/ > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > Thanks for posting that. I read the Reg but not on "the reg" so that one missed me. Downloading now! Sounds like fun ;) Best, Sean From mattislind at gmail.com Sat May 21 11:38:19 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 18:38:19 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-04-22 14:52 GMT+02:00 Tor Arntsen : > On 21 April 2016 at 14:43, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > PED2.DMK and DISK8.IMD is the same disk, but different ways of reading it > > off the disk. I used both the standard PC-floppy and then also the > > catweasel card. I tried the catweasel for some floppies that I had > reading > > trouble with. > > > > I am really interested in hearing more about your emulator! > > > > /Mattis > > Notis-calc (from floppy NDDISK33) runs fine, at least. I just had to > install a version of ddbtables-d which has support for VT100 (the one > which is on the floppy doesn't). I never got around to write a > Tandberg terminal emulator.. but vt100 works fine in an xterm. > As with every ND GUI program the help system is intuitive, fast, and > useful. That spreadsheet is easy to use. I have never used notis-calc > before, but it's so easy that I could as well use it instead of > gnumeric. > > Screenshot: http://picpaste.com/notis-calc.png > (trying an image service I haven't used before) > > I have now added some 80 more floppies to download if you would like to check. http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/norsk-data-floppy-disks /Mattis From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 21 11:57:17 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 18:57:17 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 21 May 2016 at 18:37, Sean Caron wrote: > On Sat, 21 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 21 May 2016 at 07:14, Sean Conner wrote: >>> >>> >>> Oh my! I'm reading the manual for the C compiler for the Unisys 2200 >>> [1] >>> system and it's dated 2013! And yes, it does appear to be a 36-bit >>> non-byte >>> addressable system. >> >> >> >> And you can run the OS free of charge on high-end x86 kit: >> >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/31/free_x86_mainframes_for_all_virtual_mainframes_that_is/ >> > > Thanks for posting that. I read the Reg but not on "the reg" so that one > missed me. Downloading now! Sounds like fun ;) Yes, I thought so, too. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 21 12:41:42 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 18:41:42 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100B For Sale, Manchester, UK Message-ID: <02e301d1b388$09ac8380$1d058a80$@ntlworld.com> I have a DEC Rainbow 100B in the upright pedestal for sale. It comes with 128K of memory, a hard disk controller with hard disk cable, an RX50 drive and the graphics option. It is just the base unit and the pedestal, there is no keyboard, monitor or hard disk included. I collected this machine recently and had to replace the shorted EMI filter on the input of the PSU with something more modern, so it is a working machine. When I have been given a machine for free that I can't keep, then I give it away. In this case, this one cost me money to buy and repair, so this time I am selling it. I would much prefer collection as it is quite large. If I must ship it then so be it, but it may take me a while to find a suitable box to ship it in, and I may have to add that to the cost. Pictures here: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=FC758A5A91B91301!5858 &authkey=!AC9g74Lag3CoW5k&ithint=folder%2cjpg Looking for offers. Regards Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat May 21 13:29:11 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 19:29:11 +0100 Subject: The RSTS riddle. Message-ID: <352944f2-9a31-b0bf-5e73-50879ef30741@btinternet.com> Hi Further to my posts this morning I have one last hurdle to jump. 1. I have a VAX with a TK70 attached and a TQK70 controller. 2. The tape drive works just fine. 3. Also on the VAX I have the correct tape (.TAP) image file for a RSTS/E V10 install tape. 4. I would like to copy the .tap file to the tape so as to end up with a bootable install tape. 5. I then power down the VAX and move the controller to an 11/83. (The drive is external with its own PSU) 6. Boot the install tape and go from there. So suggestions please as to how to do 4. Rod Smallwood From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 21 13:56:05 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 19:56:05 +0100 Subject: The RSTS riddle. In-Reply-To: <352944f2-9a31-b0bf-5e73-50879ef30741@btinternet.com> References: <352944f2-9a31-b0bf-5e73-50879ef30741@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <02e901d1b392$6d8b7c30$48a27490$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: 21 May 2016 19:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: The RSTS riddle. > > Hi > > Further to my posts this morning I have one last hurdle to jump. > > 1. I have a VAX with a TK70 attached and a TQK70 controller. > > 2. The tape drive works just fine. > > 3. Also on the VAX I have the correct tape (.TAP) image file for a RSTS/E V10 > install tape. > > 4. I would like to copy the .tap file to the tape so as to end up with a bootable > install tape. > > 5. I then power down the VAX and move the controller to an 11/83. (The > drive is external with its own PSU) > > 6. Boot the install tape and go from there. > > So suggestions please as to how to do 4. > Assuming the tape needs to be ANSI formatted then I would mount the .TAP file under SIMH, copy the files to a simulated VAX, noting the order of storage. Then copy the files to the real VAX and copy the files in the same order to the real TK70. I think a long time ago I made a diagnostic tape in this way (possibly in reverse though, from real tape to virtual tape, can't quite remember now). Regards Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat May 21 14:28:50 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 20:28:50 +0100 Subject: The RSTS riddle. In-Reply-To: <02e901d1b392$6d8b7c30$48a27490$@ntlworld.com> References: <352944f2-9a31-b0bf-5e73-50879ef30741@btinternet.com> <02e901d1b392$6d8b7c30$48a27490$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <91fa3360-c63f-00c2-65db-9712d32137a7@btinternet.com> On 21/05/2016 19:56, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >> Smallwood >> Sent: 21 May 2016 19:29 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: The RSTS riddle. >> >> Hi >> >> Further to my posts this morning I have one last hurdle to jump. >> >> 1. I have a VAX with a TK70 attached and a TQK70 controller. >> >> 2. The tape drive works just fine. >> >> 3. Also on the VAX I have the correct tape (.TAP) image file for a RSTS/E V10 >> install tape. >> >> 4. I would like to copy the .tap file to the tape so as to end up with a bootable >> install tape. >> >> 5. I then power down the VAX and move the controller to an 11/83. (The >> drive is external with its own PSU) >> >> 6. Boot the install tape and go from there. >> >> So suggestions please as to how to do 4. >> > Assuming the tape needs to be ANSI formatted then I would mount the .TAP file under SIMH, copy the files to a simulated VAX, noting the order of storage. Then copy the files to the real VAX and copy the files in the same order to the real TK70. I think a long time ago I made a diagnostic tape in this way (possibly in reverse though, from real tape to virtual tape, can't quite remember now). > > Regards > > Rob > > Thank you Rob. OK first interesting point. SIMH knows about .TAP and real DEC systems don't Second point: The RSTS install tape is just a bunch of files. There's nothing requiring image copy to deal with funny file formats Third Point There's no way to copy an image only files under any DEC operating system. Fourth Point If I had a RSTS system how would I make a backup copy of the install tape? So its a SIMH route answer. Regards Rod From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 21 15:51:58 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 13:51:58 -0700 Subject: The RSTS riddle. In-Reply-To: <91fa3360-c63f-00c2-65db-9712d32137a7@btinternet.com> References: <352944f2-9a31-b0bf-5e73-50879ef30741@btinternet.com> <02e901d1b392$6d8b7c30$48a27490$@ntlworld.com> <91fa3360-c63f-00c2-65db-9712d32137a7@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 5/21/16 12:28 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Third Point > There's no way to copy an image only files under any DEC operating system. > > Fourth Point > > If I had a RSTS system how would I make a backup copy of the install tape? > you would use TPC, and you can convert between TAP and TPC dealing with tape images is easier in the unix world https://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ from the "SIMH tape images to real tapes" thread on the simh mailing list http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/pipermail/simh/ > > Googling around only seems to want to show me how to copy real tapes > to images. I need to copy a SIMH tape image to a real tape! > > I seem to recall SIMH including a utility for this...but I could be > mistaken. > > I will need a utility that will run on VMS (VAX) as I need to use a > TK50 to make a TK50. (Unless someone wants to doante a TK70. ) > I use vtapeutils to convert from the 4 byte record header format that Simh uses to a 2 byte record header format: http://sourceforge.net/projects/vtapeutils/ Then I use VMSTPC to copy this to a real tape: http://decuslib.com/decus/vax86d/bnelson/vmstpc/ From martin at shackspace.de Sat May 21 16:21:23 2016 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 23:21:23 +0200 Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( Message-ID: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Hello, the EPROMs are labeled 07595-18045 and 07595-18046. Can anyone do a dump for me? It's really urgent. Our local hackerspace wants to get rid of it, if there is no chance to get the Firmware again. greetings, Martin From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat May 21 16:53:07 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 14:53:07 -0700 Subject: MSI 6800 Message-ID: Thanks Kip! I did manage to get it going. Turned out the switches for baud rate are not labelled accurately. It has a monitor called Weebug.. no idea how to operate it. :) ?Hoping it's similar to SWTBUG, MIKBUG etc. Brad Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Kip Koon Date: 2016-05-21 4:29 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Subject: RE: MSI 6800 Hi Brad, I found these two links.? I hope they help. < http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=732> < http://www.hinkles.us/chuckbo/MSI-6800/index.htm> Take care my friend. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 10:31 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: MSI 6800 > > > > Hi there, > I have acquired an MSI 6800 (SS50) computer and am trying to figure out how to get it going.? I am reaching out everywhere hoping to > find someone with knowledge of these as I have searched around extensively and cannot find a manual. > With a null modem cable connected to a PC I can get a response from the computer by typing things or resetting it, but the output is > garbled.? I know the baud rate but at present have no way to determine the other settings like bit, parity, etc. > Any help/advice would be appreciated! > Brad > Sent from my Samsung device From spedraja at gmail.com Sat May 21 07:03:48 2016 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 14:03:48 +0200 Subject: MINC is going to Pete Turnbull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Congratulations, Pete. I'd like to put some day my hands in one of these but work and distance (Spain) make it complicated. Perhaps in some years from now. Kind Regards Sergio From mark at matlockfamily.com Sat May 21 12:32:22 2016 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 13:32:22 -0400 Subject: MINC is going to Pete Turnbull (tony duell) Message-ID: <5F901A1A-FF52-4C1A-AAF4-4099FEF476F9@MatlockFamily.com> > I would hope whoever gets it is prepared to exchange information. There is no > software with my machine, of course. Pete, Congrats! Once you pick up the system feel free to contact me about getting copies of the limited software I have for the MINC at this time. They are great systems to experiment with. Mark Matlock > > In case anyone is worried I am keeping 2 MINCs myself. One is an RL01-based > one that I have pulled the CPU, RAM and Bootstrap cards from and hung it off > a DW11-B (Unibus-Qbus interface) on a PDP11/45 (yes, that does work!). I've not > got the 11/45 running after the house move, but it is all there and sorting it out > is just a matter of time The other MINC is a MINC-23 (PDP11/23 CPU board), > with an RX02. I am also keeping at least one of every MINC module I have > ever owned, including MNCAG (analogue preamplifier) and MNCTP > (thermocouple interface). Tony, Using a DW11-B to connect the MINC to a PDP-11/45 sounds fantastic! What a neat idea! I have all the MINC modules except the MNCTP thermocouple interface and the MNCAM analog mux. With the modified BDV11 I've been able to boot 11/03, 11/23 and 11/73 CPUs. I run either RT-11 and RSX11M by changing MicroSD cards on the UC07 / SCSI2SD drives (configured as 4 150 MB drives). I understand some MINC-23s ran RSX and would love to find any drivers for RSX and the MINC modules. Mark Matlock From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 21 12:37:57 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 17:37:57 +0000 Subject: MINC is going to Pete Turnbull (tony duell) In-Reply-To: <5F901A1A-FF52-4C1A-AAF4-4099FEF476F9@MatlockFamily.com> References: <5F901A1A-FF52-4C1A-AAF4-4099FEF476F9@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: > Using a DW11-B to connect the MINC to a PDP-11/45 sounds fantastic! Believe-it-or-not I did it becuase I didn't have an RL11. I used the RLV11 in the MINC to interface to the RL01s. Yes, that does work. > What a neat idea! I have all the MINC modules except the MNCTP > thermocouple interface and the MNCAM analog mux. With the modified I think the MNCAM is the only one I am missing. I have : MNCAD (ADC), MNCAA (DAC), MNCAG (preamplifier, MNCTP (Thermocouple amplifier), MNCDI (Digital Input), MNCDO (Digital Output) and MNCKW (Clock). Are there others? > BDV11 I've been able to boot 11/03, 11/23 and 11/73 CPUs. I run either > RT-11 and RSX11M by changing MicroSD cards on the UC07 / SCSI2SD > drives (configured as 4 150 MB drives). I understand some MINC-23s ran > RSX and would love to find any drivers for RSX and the MINC modules. The MINC is a standard Q-bus system. The backplane looks odd, but it's just Qbus with CD interconnect. I can't remember if there is CD interconnect between the logic cards (in the right hand compartment with the silly notice on top [1]) and the MINC modules, but there is certainly CD interconnect between the logic boards (the RLV11 needs it for one thing) and between the MINC modules (that's how the clock gets to trigger the ADC and how the mux and preamplifiers feed the ADC). The rear 2 connectors of each MINC module are normal Qbus AFAIK. I've never seen RSX drivers for the MINC modules. There was a set of RT11 libraries, etc. -tony From isking at uw.edu Sat May 21 16:05:37 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 14:05:37 -0700 Subject: MINC is going to Pete Turnbull (tony duell) In-Reply-To: References: <5F901A1A-FF52-4C1A-AAF4-4099FEF476F9@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: Hey Pete, I have software and documentation, too. I really like my MINC. My machine is RX02 based, but I have a SCSI adapter for it. One of these days, I'm going to get around to either putting a real SCSI drive or a SCSI-to-SD adapter in it. If you have the 11/03 version, you need the earlier version of the MINC software. The 11/23 version needs a later version of the software, because of some changes in the instruction set - not all PDP-11 processors were created equal! And RT-11 will indeed run fine on these. On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 10:37 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > Using a DW11-B to connect the MINC to a PDP-11/45 sounds fantastic! > > Believe-it-or-not I did it becuase I didn't have an RL11. I used the RLV11 > in the > MINC to interface to the RL01s. Yes, that does work. > > > What a neat idea! I have all the MINC modules except the MNCTP > > thermocouple interface and the MNCAM analog mux. With the modified > > I think the MNCAM is the only one I am missing. > I have : MNCAD (ADC), MNCAA (DAC), MNCAG (preamplifier, MNCTP > (Thermocouple amplifier), MNCDI (Digital Input), MNCDO (Digital > Output) and MNCKW (Clock). Are there others? > > > > BDV11 I've been able to boot 11/03, 11/23 and 11/73 CPUs. I run either > > RT-11 and RSX11M by changing MicroSD cards on the UC07 / SCSI2SD > > drives (configured as 4 150 MB drives). I understand some MINC-23s ran > > RSX and would love to find any drivers for RSX and the MINC modules. > > The MINC is a standard Q-bus system. The backplane looks odd, but it's > just Qbus with CD interconnect. I can't remember if there is CD > interconnect > between the logic cards (in the right hand compartment with the silly > notice > on top [1]) and the MINC modules, but there is certainly CD interconnect > between the logic boards (the RLV11 needs it for one thing) and between > the MINC modules (that's how the clock gets to trigger the ADC and how > the mux and preamplifiers feed the ADC). The rear 2 connectors of each > MINC module are normal Qbus AFAIK. > > I've never seen RSX drivers for the MINC modules. There was a set of > RT11 libraries, etc. > > -tony > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 21 18:06:30 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 00:06:30 +0100 Subject: MINC is going to Pete Turnbull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010101d1b3b5$6a508790$3ef196b0$@gmail.com> Sergio, Lots of folks travel from UK to Spain with large vans and the rates are quite reasonable. I have just bought a house in Torrox near Malaga and have been looking at the oprions. Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SPC > Sent: 21 May 2016 13:04 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: MINC is going to Pete Turnbull > > Congratulations, Pete. I'd like to put some day my hands in one of these but > work and distance (Spain) make it complicated. Perhaps in some years from > now. > > Kind Regards > Sergio From spc at conman.org Sat May 21 18:38:28 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 19:38:28 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160521233828.GK15363@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: > >>> -spc (Wish the C standard committee had the balls to say "2's > >>> complement all the way, and a physical bit pattern of all 0s is a > >>> NULL pointer" ... ) > >> As far as I'm concerned, this is different only in degree from `Wish > >> the C standard committee had the balls to say "Everything is x86".'. > > > First off, can you supply a list of architectures that are NOT 2's > > complement integer math that are still made and in active use today? > > > Second, are there any architectures still commercially available and > > used today where an all-zero bit pattern for an address *cannot* be > > used as NULL? > > What's the relevance? You think the C spec should tie itself to the > idiosyncracies of today's popular architectures? I'd wager that most C code is written *assuming* 2's complement and 0 NULL pointers (and byte addressable, but I didn't ask for that 8-). That the C Standard is trying to cover sign-magnitude, 1's complement and 2's complement leads to the darker, scarier, dangerous corners of C programming. I've been reading some interesting things on this. "Note that removing non-2's-complement from the standard would completely ruin my stock response to all "what do you think of this bit-twiddling extravaganza?" questions, which is to quickly confirm that they don't work for 1s' complement negative numbers. As such I'm either firmly against it or firmly in favour, but I'm not sure which." ... "[W]rite a VM with minimal bytecode and that uses 1s' complement and/or sign-magnitude. Implement a GCC or LLVM backend for it if either of them has nominal support for that, or a complete C implementation if not. That both answers the question ("yes, I do now know of a non-2's-complement implementation") and gives an opportunity to file considered defect reports if the standard does have oversights. If any of the defects is critical then it's ammunition to mandate 2's complement in the next standard." http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12276957/are-there-any-non-twos-complement-implementations-of-c?lq=1 Personally, I would *love* to see such a compiler (and would actually use it, just to see how biased existing code is). From reading this comp.lang.c++.moderated thread: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&hl=en#!topic/comp.lang.c++.moderated/gzwbsrZhix4 I'm not even sure size_t foo = (size_t)-1; is legal, or even does what I expect it to do (namely---set foo to the largest size_t value possible (pre C99). Now, I realize this is the Classic Computers Mailing list, which include support for all those wnoderful odd-ball architectures of the past, but really, in my research, I've found three sign-mangnitude based computers: IBM 7090 Burroughs series A PB 250 (the IBM 1620 was signed-magnitude, but decimal based, which the C standard doesn't support. And from what I understand, most sign-magnitude based machines were decimal in nature, not binary, so they need tno apply) and a slightly longer list of 1's complement machines: Unisys 1100/2200 PDP-1 LINC-8 PDP-12 (2's complement, but also included LINC-8 opcodes!) CDC 160A CDC 6000 Electrological EL-X1 and EL-X8 I won't bother with listing 2's complement architectures because the list would be too long and not at all inclusive of all systems (but please, feel free to add to the list of binary sign-magnitude and 1's complement systems). Of the 1's complement listed, only the Unisys is still in active use with a non-trivial number of systems but not primarily emulated. To me, I see 2's complement as having "won the war" so to speak. It is far from "idiosyncratic." And any exotic architecture of tomorrow won't be covered in the C standard becuase the C standard only covers three integer math implementations: signed magnitude 1's complement 2's complement If tinary or qubit computers become popular enough to support C, the C standard would have to be changed anyway. The initial C standard, C89, was a codification of *existing* practice, and I'm sure IBM pressed to have the C standard support non-2's complement so they could check off the "Standard C box." Yes, Unisys has a C compiler for the Unisys 2200 system and one that is fairly recent (2013). But I could not find out if it supported C99, much less C89. I couldn't tell. And yes, you can get a C compiler for a 6502. They exist. But the ones I've seen aren't ANSI C (personally, I think one would be hard pressed to *get* an ANSI C compiler for a 6502; it's a poor match) and thus, again, aren't affected by what I'd like. I'm not even alone in this. Again, for your reading pleasure: Proposal for a Friendly Dialect of C http://blog.regehr.org/archives/1180 The Problem with Friendly C http://blog.regehr.org/archives/1287 Both are written by a professor working on tools to make using C safer. > > [3] I only bring this up because you seem to be assuming my > > position is "all the world's on x86" > > No, I don't think that's your position. I'm using that as a satirical > exaggeration of your position. If I'd been writing this twenty years > ago, I would have written "VAX" instead, because that was the machine > widely assumed at the time. Twenty years ago, the "all the world's on x86" (1996). *Thirty* years ago, and yes, I would agree 8-P -spc From spc at conman.org Sat May 21 18:42:57 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 19:42:57 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160521234257.GL15363@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: > >>> -spc (Wish the C standard committee had the balls to say "2's > >>> complement all the way, and a physical bit pattern of all 0s is a > >>> NULL pointer" ... ) > >> As far as I'm concerned, this is different only in degree from `Wish > >> the C standard committee had the balls to say "Everything is x86".'. > > > First off, can you supply a list of architectures that are NOT 2's > > complement integer math that are still made and in active use today? > > > Second, are there any architectures still commercially available and > > used today where an all-zero bit pattern for an address *cannot* be > > used as NULL? > > What's the relevance? You think the C spec should tie itself to the > idiosyncracies of today's popular architectures? One more thing I forgot to mention: Java integer ranges are 2's complement, so it must assume 2's complement implementation. I noticed that Java is *also* available on the Unisys 2200, so either their implementation of Java isn't quite kosher, or because the Unisys 2200 is emulated anyway, they can "get by" with Java since the emulation of the Unisys is done on a 2's complement machine. -spc From spacewar at gmail.com Sat May 21 18:56:41 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 17:56:41 -0600 Subject: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <5AAAA194-93F3-4238-9BFB-70A9A5E4014D@shiresoft.com> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210249.WAA18561@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521035823.GD15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211133.HAA05318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5AAAA194-93F3-4238-9BFB-70A9A5E4014D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 9:59 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> On May 21, 2016, at 4:33 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> First off, the C standard mandates that the order of fields in a >>> struct cannot be reordered, >> Yes. (I think this is a Bad Thing, but I can see why they did it.) > Given that C is a systems implementation language, how would you > define HW related data structures where the order of the fields is > critical (ie HW defines them). [...] > My biggest complaint about the C standard is that the order that bits > within a bit field are compiler defined. This basically means that they > are completely unusable for anything that requires interoperability. Agreed. It was a solved problem in Ada back in 1983, so I don't know why the C committees couldn't have solved it in ANSI C in 1989, or ISO C in 1990, 1995, 1999, or 2011. Maybe the C committee is no longer concerned with use of C for low-level systems programming? (Though IMNSHO that's the only thing that it's even vaguely reasonable for.) Admittedly representation specifications are an *optional* part of Ada, but any Ada compiler intended for systems programming use would support them. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat May 21 20:25:15 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 21:25:15 -0400 Subject: The RSTS riddle. In-Reply-To: <91fa3360-c63f-00c2-65db-9712d32137a7@btinternet.com> References: <352944f2-9a31-b0bf-5e73-50879ef30741@btinternet.com> <02e901d1b392$6d8b7c30$48a27490$@ntlworld.com> <91fa3360-c63f-00c2-65db-9712d32137a7@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <2C409B98-03AE-4C01-9AE3-44A105D92FA8@comcast.net> > On May 21, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Second point: > The RSTS install tape is just a bunch of files. > There's nothing requiring image copy to deal with funny file formats No, that is not accurate. An install tape (for V9 or later) is a bootable tape with a backup set on it. Bootable tapes have DOS labels, but backupsets have ANSI labels. The install tape is a hybrid, part DOS, part ANSI. I'd have to dig in the machinery to find the details, but I definitely remember that it's a rather odd beast. If you do an image copy of the TAP file to tape none of this matters. paul From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat May 21 21:06:55 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 21:06:55 -0500 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201604300209.WAA26914@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> <74611C32-5D35-4961-B24E-E328FAB96B8E@comcast.net> <75609656-E0F7-46DA-8636-E0975EF21F8F@gmail.com> <20160429192520.GA88507@night.db.net> <201604300209.WAA26914@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160522020655.GA6845@gmail.com> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016, Mouse wrote: > Also, > PostScript has a lot of language syntax, whereas FORTH has immediate > words that act like language syntax. (The difference is that FORTH > makes it possible to change those words, thereby changing the apparent > syntax.) What do you mean by that? -- Eric Christopherson From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 21 21:12:35 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 20:12:35 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521051450.GE15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 5/21/2016 6:42 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 21 May 2016 at 07:14, Sean Conner wrote: >> >> Oh my! I'm reading the manual for the C compiler for the Unisys 2200 [1] >> system and it's dated 2013! And yes, it does appear to be a 36-bit non-byte >> addressable system. > > > And you can run the OS free of charge on high-end x86 kit: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/31/free_x86_mainframes_for_all_virtual_mainframes_that_is/ > Strange how 36 bit computers have never left us. The real computers go to the US Goverment, and Windows goes to the UNWASHED MASSES. I wonder how things would have changed if the PDP 11 was 18 bits? Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 21 21:26:22 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 20:26:22 -0600 Subject: 1's comp In-Reply-To: <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <9fc9fbd4-2bbe-76e5-c92d-7bb1065cbf56@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/20/2016 7:19 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >> >> Hehe, what is a long long? Yes, you are totally right. Still, I assert >> that C is still the defacto most portable language on Earth. What other >> language runs on as many OS's and CPUs ? None that I can think of. > > A long long is at least 64-bits long. Only if you get rid of char pointers you are portable. I like 1's compilent because it handles shifting properly. using 1's compilment unsigned would be 1 bit less in size not 1 bit more the C standard seems to make it. Ben. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat May 21 21:34:01 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 22:34:01 -0400 Subject: 1's comp In-Reply-To: <9fc9fbd4-2bbe-76e5-c92d-7bb1065cbf56@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <9fc9fbd4-2bbe-76e5-c92d-7bb1065cbf56@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <34041f47-e02c-5803-031e-56e0ee0edb15@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-21 10:26 PM, ben wrote: > On 5/20/2016 7:19 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > >>> >>> Hehe, what is a long long? Yes, you are totally right. Still, I assert >>> that C is still the defacto most portable language on Earth. What other >>> language runs on as many OS's and CPUs ? None that I can think of. >> >> A long long is at least 64-bits long. > > Only if you get rid of char pointers you are portable. > I like 1's compilent because it handles shifting properly. > using 1's compilment unsigned would be 1 bit less in size > not 1 bit more the C standard seems to make it. Don't underestimate the headache of handling two zeroes. --Toby > Ben. > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 21 21:34:44 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 20:34:44 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/20/2016 2:58 > > [4] Say, a C compiler an 8088. How big is a pointer? How big of an > object can you point to? How much code is involved with "p++"? How come INTEL thought that 64 KB segments ample? I guess they only used FLOATING point in the large time shared machines. Ben. From spc at conman.org Sat May 21 21:41:40 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 22:41:40 -0400 Subject: 1's comp In-Reply-To: <9fc9fbd4-2bbe-76e5-c92d-7bb1065cbf56@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <9fc9fbd4-2bbe-76e5-c92d-7bb1065cbf56@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20160522024140.GM15363@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great ben once stated: > On 5/20/2016 7:19 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > >> > >>Hehe, what is a long long? Yes, you are totally right. Still, I assert > >>that C is still the defacto most portable language on Earth. What other > >>language runs on as many OS's and CPUs ? None that I can think of. > > > > A long long is at least 64-bits long. > > Only if you get rid of char pointers you are portable. I don't understand this statement. > I like 1's compilent because it handles shifting properly. Again, I'm not sure how this follows. Right shifting signed quantities is undefined because different CPUs handle it differently---some copy the sign bit, some don't. I don't see how being 1's complement fixes this. -spc From spc at conman.org Sat May 21 21:46:26 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 22:46:26 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20160522024626.GN15363@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great ben once stated: > On 5/20/2016 2:58 > > > > >[4] Say, a C compiler an 8088. How big is a pointer? How big of an > > object can you point to? How much code is involved with "p++"? > > How come INTEL thought that 64 KB segments ample? I guess they only used > FLOATING point in the large time shared machines. The industry at the time was wanting larger CPUs than 8 bit. Intel had an existing 8-bit design, the 8080 and to fill demand, Intel had a few choices. It could break with any form of compatibility (object or source) and start over with a clean slate [1]. Or they could keep some form of compatibility and Intel went with (more or less) source compatibility. You could mechanically translate 8080 code into 8086 code with a high assurance it would work, and thus customers of Intel could leverate the existing 8080 (and Z80) source base. And that's how you end up with a bizare segmented 16-bit architecture. -spc [1] Motorola took this approach when making the 68000. It's nothing at all like the 6800. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat May 21 21:52:54 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 19:52:54 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> > On May 21, 2016, at 7:34 PM, ben wrote: > > On 5/20/2016 2:58 > >> >> [4] Say, a C compiler an 8088. How big is a pointer? How big of an >> object can you point to? How much code is involved with "p++"? > > How come INTEL thought that 64 KB segments ample? I guess they only used > FLOATING point in the large time shared machines. Because the 808x was a 16-bit processor with 1MB physical addressing. I would argue that for the time 808x was brilliant in that most other 16-bit micros only allowed for 64KB physical. If people wanted more they had to add external hardware and the calling linkage became problematic (I know because that?s what we did on the IBM S/23 Datamaster that used an 8085 and allowed for 192KB of ROM and 128KB of RAM). Floating point was not common at the time in micros because of the number of transistors/gates necessary for the implementation. Intel added it as a ?coprocessor? in the 8087. When I was at IBM we continually railed on Intel to make floating point standard so that we could have code that assumed floating point was always present. It finally happened with the 80486 but then Intel took it away again (sort-of) with the 486-SX which was brilliant marketing by Intel?initially allowed them to sell ?floor swept? 486?s with non-functional floating point units?eventually their process improved and more often than not 486-SX systems that had the floating point coprocessor actually had 2 fully functional 486 processors! TTFN - Guy From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 21 21:56:48 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 21:56:48 -0500 Subject: 1's comp In-Reply-To: <34041f47-e02c-5803-031e-56e0ee0edb15@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <9fc9fbd4-2bbe-76e5-c92d-7bb1065cbf56@jetnet.ab.ca> <34041f47-e02c-5803-031e-56e0ee0edb15@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <57411FF0.1040308@pico-systems.com> On 05/21/2016 09:34 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-05-21 10:26 PM, ben wrote: >> On 5/20/2016 7:19 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >> >>>> >>>> Hehe, what is a long long? Yes, you are totally right. >>>> Still, I assert >>>> that C is still the defacto most portable language on >>>> Earth. What other >>>> language runs on as many OS's and CPUs ? None that I >>>> can think of. >>> >>> A long long is at least 64-bits long. >> >> Only if you get rid of char pointers you are portable. >> I like 1's compilent because it handles shifting properly. >> using 1's compilment unsigned would be 1 bit less in size >> not 1 bit more the C standard seems to make it. > > Don't underestimate the headache of handling two zeroes. > Right, on the LINC, if you compared positive zero to negative zero, it would not set the equals flag! I have no idea how many tests had to be put in the code for that, but anyplace where the two values could be zero, you had to check for that special case. Jon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 21 22:13:17 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 21:13:17 -0600 Subject: 1's comp In-Reply-To: <57411FF0.1040308@pico-systems.com> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <9fc9fbd4-2bbe-76e5-c92d-7bb1065cbf56@jetnet.ab.ca> <34041f47-e02c-5803-031e-56e0ee0edb15@telegraphics.com.au> <57411FF0.1040308@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7c254e16-e613-679b-7db0-ff4a9fd910b4@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/21/2016 8:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/21/2016 09:34 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2016-05-21 10:26 PM, ben wrote: >>> On 5/20/2016 7:19 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >>> >>>>> >>>>> Hehe, what is a long long? Yes, you are totally right. Still, I assert >>>>> that C is still the defacto most portable language on Earth. What >>>>> other >>>>> language runs on as many OS's and CPUs ? None that I can think of. >>>> >>>> A long long is at least 64-bits long. >>> >>> Only if you get rid of char pointers you are portable. >>> I like 1's compilent because it handles shifting properly. >>> using 1's compilment unsigned would be 1 bit less in size >>> not 1 bit more the C standard seems to make it. >> >> Don't underestimate the headache of handling two zeroes. >> > Right, on the LINC, if you compared positive zero to negative zero, it > would not set the equals flag! > I have no idea how many tests had to be put in the code for that, but > anyplace where the two values could be zero, you had to check for that > special case. > > Jon I favor TWO zeros over 2's compliment 0x80... 0 number that is always a minus. 0 and 1 for logic word size only. The big thing is to know your hardware, one machine does not fit all. Ben. From chd at chdickman.com Sat May 21 22:17:15 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 23:17:15 -0400 Subject: Making MAINDEC paper tapes with a 33 ASR Message-ID: I need to make some paper tapes of the diagnostics for my PDP-8/e. I built an RS232/current loop interface and have it working I think Did anyone else notice that the standard cable to connect the M8655 to a tty uses shielded twisted pair cable, but doesn't have the signal pairs in the twisted pairs? This same cable is used with the DL11 too. -chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat May 21 22:29:09 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 23:29:09 -0400 Subject: 1's comp In-Reply-To: <57411FF0.1040308@pico-systems.com> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <9fc9fbd4-2bbe-76e5-c92d-7bb1065cbf56@jetnet.ab.ca> <34041f47-e02c-5803-031e-56e0ee0edb15@telegraphics.com.au> <57411FF0.1040308@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <15b9d672-0aa0-19c4-b16d-256ab3c7018f@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-21 10:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/21/2016 09:34 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2016-05-21 10:26 PM, ben wrote: >>> On 5/20/2016 7:19 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >>> >>>>> >>>>> Hehe, what is a long long? Yes, you are totally right. Still, I assert >>>>> that C is still the defacto most portable language on Earth. What >>>>> other >>>>> language runs on as many OS's and CPUs ? None that I can think of. >>>> >>>> A long long is at least 64-bits long. >>> >>> Only if you get rid of char pointers you are portable. >>> I like 1's compilent because it handles shifting properly. >>> using 1's compilment unsigned would be 1 bit less in size >>> not 1 bit more the C standard seems to make it. >> >> Don't underestimate the headache of handling two zeroes. >> > Right, on the LINC, if you compared positive zero to negative zero, it > would not set the equals flag! > I have no idea how many tests had to be put in the code for that, but > anyplace where the two values could be zero, you had to check for that > special case. The Grishman book[1] gave me the impression that this was challenging on the CDC 6x00 as well. [1] http://ygdes.com/CDC/Grishman_CDC6000AsmLangPgmg.pdf --Toby > > Jon > From jsw at ieee.org Sat May 21 22:48:45 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 22:48:45 -0500 Subject: Hamvention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I saw one Altair 8800 and one TRS-80 III out in the swap fest. Some more recent power (5?) series, but that?s about it. Jerry WB9MRI > On May 20, 2016, at 1:18 PM, Alex McWhirter wrote: > > > > > Anyone spot anything list related at hamvention? I'm around trying to find anything cool. Particularly sun and ibm stuff. > > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat May 21 22:52:51 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 04:52:51 +0100 Subject: The RSTS riddle. In-Reply-To: <2C409B98-03AE-4C01-9AE3-44A105D92FA8@comcast.net> References: <352944f2-9a31-b0bf-5e73-50879ef30741@btinternet.com> <02e901d1b392$6d8b7c30$48a27490$@ntlworld.com> <91fa3360-c63f-00c2-65db-9712d32137a7@btinternet.com> <2C409B98-03AE-4C01-9AE3-44A105D92FA8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3c0f12a4-3412-5e40-da1c-644dd98e8fc9@btinternet.com> On 22/05/2016 02:25, Paul Koning wrote: >> On May 21, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Second point: >> The RSTS install tape is just a bunch of files. >> There's nothing requiring image copy to deal with funny file formats > No, that is not accurate. An install tape (for V9 or later) is a bootable tape with a backup set on it. Bootable tapes have DOS labels, but backupsets have ANSI labels. The install tape is a hybrid, part DOS, part ANSI. I'd have to dig in the machinery to find the details, but I definitely remember that it's a rather odd beast. > > If you do an image copy of the TAP file to tape none of this matters. > > paul > That's exactly what I'm trying to do. So how do I make the image copy to tape. I am none to clever. Besides being told what to do I need to know how to do it. Rod From brian at marstella.net Sat May 21 23:09:08 2016 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 00:09:08 -0400 Subject: Hamvention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After Alex mentioned it, I'd thought about driving up if anyone saw anything of interest, but sounds like there isn't a great deal to pick from for older computers. I really can't justify the drive anyway, this year... Brian KI4GTD On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 11:48 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > I saw one Altair 8800 and one TRS-80 III out in the swap fest. Some more > recent power (5?) series, but that?s about it. > > Jerry WB9MRI > > > > On May 20, 2016, at 1:18 PM, Alex McWhirter > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Anyone spot anything list related at hamvention? I'm around trying to > find anything cool. Particularly sun and ibm stuff. > > > > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device > > From davidk.collins at bigpond.com Sun May 22 00:53:39 2016 From: davidk.collins at bigpond.com (David Collins) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 15:53:39 +1000 Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( In-Reply-To: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> Martin, I might be able to help you as I think we have a 7596A. Are these EPROMs from the processor PCA? Are you able to tell me which 'U' numbers they are in the PC board? I haven't looked at the plotter itself, but the service manual we have shows the following part numbers for the processor PCA 07595-18039 07595-18040 07595-18041 07595-18042 So I'm not sure if my manual is old and the plotters at that time had 4 EPROMs and yours is newer and has 2? Or are they on another PCA somewhere? Let me know. If the plotter we have is in the main museum facility I can possibly help you, I will check. David Collins Curator HP Computer Museum. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Martin Peters Sent: Sunday, 22 May 2016 7:21 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( Hello, the EPROMs are labeled 07595-18045 and 07595-18046. Can anyone do a dump for me? It's really urgent. Our local hackerspace wants to get rid of it, if there is no chance to get the Firmware again. greetings, Martin From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 22 02:10:10 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 00:10:10 -0700 Subject: 1's comp In-Reply-To: <34041f47-e02c-5803-031e-56e0ee0edb15@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <9fc9fbd4-2bbe-76e5-c92d-7bb1065cbf56@jetnet.ab.ca> <34041f47-e02c-5803-031e-56e0ee0edb15@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <57415B52.1070802@sydex.com> On 05/21/2016 07:34 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Don't underestimate the headache of handling two zeroes. At least on the CDC iron, it was never much of a problem. The primary way you got -0 as a result (without resorting to boolean operations), was subtracting -0 from -0. The ZR/NZ operations worked on either sign. Note that, on the fullword 60-bit operations, the conditionals were based on the contents of a single register. To compare, you had to subtract or otherwise operate on two operands and branch on the content of the result. There were no condition codes--something that made instruction scheduling much simpler. The 18-bit index register conditionals (EQ, NE, GT...etc.) didn't usually see -0 as a problem. Ones complement did have advantages in bit twiddling--there were some nifty tricks not possible in two's complement. Of course the CDC 6000 series was word-addressable--something that seemed eminently practical. As far as I'm aware, the possibility of two zeroes never impacted the performance of the CDC 6000 series in the real world. --Chuck From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Sat May 21 23:27:47 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (Alex McWhirter) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 00:27:47 -0400 Subject: Hamvention Message-ID: I picked up one of those power systems, the other was gone before I got to it. The only things I can add are an amiga and tons of cisco network gear. Not a whole lot this year I suppose. Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- From: Brian Marstella Date: 5/22/2016 12:09 AM (GMT-05:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Hamvention After Alex mentioned it, I'd thought about driving up if anyone saw anything of interest, but sounds like there isn't a great deal to pick from for older computers. I really can't justify the drive anyway, this year... Brian KI4GTD On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 11:48 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > I saw one Altair 8800 and one TRS-80 III out in the swap fest.? Some more > recent power (5?) series, but that?s about it. > > Jerry WB9MRI > > > > On May 20, 2016, at 1:18 PM, Alex McWhirter > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Anyone spot anything list related at hamvention? I'm around trying to > find anything cool. Particularly sun and ibm stuff. > > > > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 22 02:58:55 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 08:58:55 +0100 Subject: VGA Error Code from DECpc AXP 150 (Jensen) Message-ID: <034101d1b3ff$c9c8fdc0$5d5af940$@ntlworld.com> I am hoping to install Windows NT 3.1 on my Jensen. Unfortunately I am getting an error code relating to VGA. The tech docs I have make no mention of this code, anyone know what it means: VGA ?? 06 0020 Regards Rob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 22 03:50:14 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 09:50:14 +0100 Subject: VGA Error Code from DECpc AXP 150 (Jensen) In-Reply-To: <034101d1b3ff$c9c8fdc0$5d5af940$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 22/05/2016 08:58, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > I am hoping to install Windows NT 3.1 on my Jensen. Unfortunately I am > getting an error code relating to VGA. The tech docs I have make no mention > of this code, anyone know what it means: > > > > VGA ?? 06 0020 I can't remember what VGA card was in a Jensen, Compaq Qvision? I also don't remember running VMS/OSF on a graphics head on one of those so it might not be supported. You need to be in AlphaBIOS to install NT anyway, so what happens if you >>> SET OS_TYPE NT >>> ARC (this is from rusty memory, YMMV etc, Jensen was also a DEC 2000-300) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 22 05:51:26 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 11:51:26 +0100 Subject: VGA Error Code from DECpc AXP 150 (Jensen) In-Reply-To: References: <034101d1b3ff$c9c8fdc0$5d5af940$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <034d01d1b417$e3c103e0$ab430ba0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 22 May 2016 09:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VGA Error Code from DECpc AXP 150 (Jensen) > > On 22/05/2016 08:58, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > > > I am hoping to install Windows NT 3.1 on my Jensen. Unfortunately I am > > getting an error code relating to VGA. The tech docs I have make no > > mention of this code, anyone know what it means: > > > > > > > > VGA ?? 06 0020 > > I can't remember what VGA card was in a Jensen, Compaq Qvision? Yes, that is correct. > I also > don't remember running VMS/OSF on a graphics head on one of those so it > might not be supported. You need to be in AlphaBIOS to install NT anyway, > so what happens if you > > >>> SET OS_TYPE NT > >>> ARC > > (this is from rusty memory, YMMV etc, Jensen was also a DEC 2000-300) Already tried it from the AlphaBIOS and I get the same error. The VGA output varies from all grey, to black and white vertical stripes, to a screen full of "@" symbols. Regards Rob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 22 06:15:41 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 12:15:41 +0100 Subject: VGA Error Code from DECpc AXP 150 (Jensen) In-Reply-To: <034d01d1b417$e3c103e0$ab430ba0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 22/05/2016 11:51, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: >> I can't remember what VGA card was in a Jensen, Compaq Qvision? > > > Yes, that is correct. EISA card, yay. > Already tried it from the AlphaBIOS and I get the same error. The VGA output > varies from all grey, to black and white vertical stripes, to a screen full > of "@" symbols. Aaaand unless you've got the ECU diskette and a working floppy drive you can't just move the card to a different EISA slot. Have you checked all the caps on the motherboard? If slot power is reduced you might get those symptoms. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From tingox at gmail.com Sun May 22 06:52:00 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 13:52:00 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > I have now added some 80 more floppies to download if you would like to > check. > > http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/norsk-data-floppy-disks Very cool! Now I just need to find a tool that converts IMD to raw format and runs on FreeBSD. IMD / IMDU is a ms-dos program, samdisk exists as a Linux binary, but refuses to find a shared library (libbz2.so.1.0:) -- Regards, Torfinn From mattislind at gmail.com Sun May 22 07:00:58 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 14:00:58 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: s?ndag 22 maj 2016 skrev Torfinn Ingolfsen : > On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Mattis Lind > wrote: > > > > I have now added some 80 more floppies to download if you would like to > > check. > > > > http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/norsk-data-floppy-disks > > Very cool! > Now I just need to find a tool that converts IMD to raw format and > runs on FreeBSD. > IMD / IMDU is a ms-dos program, samdisk exists as a Linux binary, but > refuses to find a shared library (libbz2.so.1.0:) Isn't it possible to run dosemu on FreeBSD? I use imdv in dosemu on Linux. /Mattis -- > Regards, > Torfinn > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 22 07:14:50 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 13:14:50 +0100 Subject: VGA Error Code from DECpc AXP 150 (Jensen) In-Reply-To: References: <034d01d1b417$e3c103e0$ab430ba0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <036201d1b423$8a3b4450$9eb1ccf0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 22 May 2016 12:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VGA Error Code from DECpc AXP 150 (Jensen) > > On 22/05/2016 11:51, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > > >> I can't remember what VGA card was in a Jensen, Compaq Qvision? > > > > > > Yes, that is correct. > > EISA card, yay. > > > Already tried it from the AlphaBIOS and I get the same error. The VGA > > output varies from all grey, to black and white vertical stripes, to a > > screen full of "@" symbols. > > Aaaand unless you've got the ECU diskette and a working floppy drive you > can't just move the card to a different EISA slot. Have you checked all the > caps on the motherboard? If slot power is reduced you might get those > symptoms. > I do have the ECU diskette and I can run the ECU. I had contemplated moving the card to another slot but didn't think it would make a difference. Will give that a go. Thanks for the suggestion. Regards Rob From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun May 22 07:40:13 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 08:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <5AAAA194-93F3-4238-9BFB-70A9A5E4014D@shiresoft.com> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210249.WAA18561@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521035823.GD15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211133.HAA05318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5AAAA194-93F3-4238-9BFB-70A9A5E4014D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <201605221240.IAA25469@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> First off, the C standard mandates that the order of fields in a >>> struct cannot be reordered, >> Yes. (I think this is a Bad Thing, but I can see why they did it.) > Given that C is a systems implementation language, how would you > define HW related data structures where the order of the fields is > critical (ie HW defines them). I can see three answers. 1) Don't use structs for that. Look at NetBSD's bus-space abstraction for one possible way. 2) Make any reordering implementation-defined, so that code for specific implementations can know how the implementation does it. 3) Make reordering optional. Which way the default should go is arguable; since my guess is that most structs are not hardware-interface structs, the default should be reordering, with some keyword specifying no reordering. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun May 22 08:09:38 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 09:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160521233828.GK15363@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521233828.GK15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201605221309.JAA16876@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'd wager that most C code is written *assuming* 2's complement and 0 > NULL pointers (and byte addressable, but I didn't ask for that 8-). Well, yes. I'd go further: I'd wager most C code is written assuming everything works just the way the developer's system does; most people I interact with don't seem to realize that "try it and see how it works" is not a valid way to find out how C (as opposed to "C on this particular version of this particular implementation on this particular system") works. > "[W]rite a VM with minimal bytecode and that uses 1s' > complement and/or sign-magnitude. Implement a GCC or LLVM > backend for it if either of them has nominal support for that, > or a complete C implementation if not. [...] > Personally, I would *love* to see such a compiler (and would actually > use it, just to see how biased existing code is). I've often thought about building a C implementation that goes out of its way to break assumptions like "integers are two's complement with no padding bits" or "floats are IEEE" or "nil pointers are all-bits-0" or "all pointers are the same size and representation" or etc. > I'm not even sure > size_t foo = (size_t)-1; > is legal, In C++, I don't know. In C, I'm fairly sure it's legal. > or even does what I expect it to do (namely---set foo to the largest > size_t value possible (pre C99). I'm not sure it does that. If you want that, I think you want size_t foo = -(size_t)1; > To me, I see 2's complement as having "won the war" so to speak. At present, yes, I agree. I am not convinced that will not change. There was a time when "little endian, no alignment restrictions" appeared to have won the war (in the form of the VAX and, later, the x86). These days, ARM's star is on the rise and others may follow, breaking the "no alignment restrictions" part (and possibly the "little endian" part - I forget whether ARM is big- or little-endian). > http://blog.regehr.org/archives/[...] Yeah, I've read some of his writings. I disagree with him. I think C needs to fork. It seems to me there is need for two languages: an unsafe one, the "high level assembly language" C is regularly called, which is suitable for things such as hardware interfacing or malloc() implementation, and a safer one, closer to what blog.regehr.org seems to want, for...well, I'm not quite sure what he thinks this language would be better for. Application layer stuff, I guess? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun May 22 08:16:11 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 09:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160522020655.GA6845@gmail.com> References: <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> <74611C32-5D35-4961-B24E-E328FAB96B8E@comcast.net> <75609656-E0F7-46DA-8636-E0975EF21F8F@gmail.com> <20160429192520.GA88507@night.db.net> <201604300209.WAA26914@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160522020655.GA6845@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201605221316.JAA04248@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Also, PostScript has a lot of language syntax, whereas FORTH has >> immediate words that act like language syntax. (The difference is >> that FORTH makes it possible to change those words, thereby changing >> the apparent syntax.) > What do you mean by that? Consider a simple definition : foo swap - ; ( inverted subtraction ) /foo { exch sub } def % inverted subtraction (The first is FORTH[%], the second PostScript.) Each of these has some "syntax" bits. In FORTH, :, ;, (, and ). In PostScript, the leading /, {, }, and %. The difference is that in FORTH, you can create new immediate words and/or redefine the existing ones; : can do something other than beginning the definition of a word, and you can arrange to begin the definition of a word with something other than :. In PostScript, none of this is mutable short of hacking on the underlying implementation (and if you do that the result isn't PostScript any longer). [%] I think. I don't really know FORTH; does it use - for subtraction? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun May 22 08:23:01 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 09:23:01 -0400 Subject: 1's comp In-Reply-To: <57415B52.1070802@sydex.com> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <9fc9fbd4-2bbe-76e5-c92d-7bb1065cbf56@jetnet.ab.ca> <34041f47-e02c-5803-031e-56e0ee0edb15@telegraphics.com.au> <57415B52.1070802@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6e0ef25d-42d4-d602-96ea-a41a725fe9c8@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-22 3:10 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/21/2016 07:34 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> Don't underestimate the headache of handling two zeroes. > > At least on the CDC iron, it was never much of a problem. The primary > way you got -0 as a result (without resorting to boolean operations), > was subtracting -0 from -0. The ZR/NZ operations worked on either sign. > > Note that, on the fullword 60-bit operations, the conditionals were > based on the contents of a single register. To compare, you had to > subtract or otherwise operate on two operands and branch on the content > of the result. There were no condition codes--something that made > instruction scheduling much simpler. > > The 18-bit index register conditionals (EQ, NE, GT...etc.) didn't > usually see -0 as a problem. > > Ones complement did have advantages in bit twiddling--there were some > nifty tricks not possible in two's complement. Of course the CDC 6000 > series was word-addressable--something that seemed eminently practical. > > As far as I'm aware, the possibility of two zeroes never impacted the > performance of the CDC 6000 series in the real world. I didn't mean performance - I meant programmer effort to ensure robust/correct code. The Grishman book didn't reassure me, but thanks for the additional info. --Toby > > --Chuck > > > > From guy at cuillin.org.uk Sun May 22 09:09:24 2016 From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 15:09:24 +0100 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201605221309.JAA16876@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521233828.GK15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605221309.JAA16876@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: >> I'm not even sure > >> size_t foo = (size_t)-1; > >> is legal, > > In C++, I don't know. In C, I'm fairly sure it's legal. > >> or even does what I expect it to do (namely---set foo to the largest >> size_t value possible (pre C99). > > I'm not sure it does that. If you want that, I think you want > > size_t foo = -(size_t)1; While I think that size_t foo = (size_t)(-1); is what C would interpret as being meant. What the size of the thing that by default, in this implementation, -1 would be stored in. On 22 May 2016 at 14:09, Mouse wrote: > > I'd wager that most C code is written *assuming* 2's complement and 0 > > NULL pointers (and byte addressable, but I didn't ask for that 8-). > > Well, yes. I'd go further: I'd wager most C code is written assuming > everything works just the way the developer's system does; most people > I interact with don't seem to realize that "try it and see how it > works" is not a valid way to find out how C (as opposed to "C on this > particular version of this particular implementation on this particular > system") works. > > > "[W]rite a VM with minimal bytecode and that uses 1s' > > complement and/or sign-magnitude. Implement a GCC or LLVM > > backend for it if either of them has nominal support for that, > > or a complete C implementation if not. [...] > > Personally, I would *love* to see such a compiler (and would actually > > use it, just to see how biased existing code is). > > I've often thought about building a C implementation that goes out of > its way to break assumptions like "integers are two's complement with > no padding bits" or "floats are IEEE" or "nil pointers are all-bits-0" > or "all pointers are the same size and representation" or etc. > > > I'm not even sure > > > size_t foo = (size_t)-1; > > > is legal, > > In C++, I don't know. In C, I'm fairly sure it's legal. > > > or even does what I expect it to do (namely---set foo to the largest > > size_t value possible (pre C99). > > I'm not sure it does that. If you want that, I think you want > > size_t foo = -(size_t)1; > > > To me, I see 2's complement as having "won the war" so to speak. > > At present, yes, I agree. I am not convinced that will not change. > > There was a time when "little endian, no alignment restrictions" > appeared to have won the war (in the form of the VAX and, later, the > x86). These days, ARM's star is on the rise and others may follow, > breaking the "no alignment restrictions" part (and possibly the "little > endian" part - I forget whether ARM is big- or little-endian). > > > http://blog.regehr.org/archives/[...] > > Yeah, I've read some of his writings. > > I disagree with him. I think C needs to fork. It seems to me there is > need for two languages: an unsafe one, the "high level assembly > language" C is regularly called, which is suitable for things such as > hardware interfacing or malloc() implementation, and a safer one, > closer to what blog.regehr.org seems to want, for...well, I'm not quite > sure what he thinks this language would be better for. Application > layer stuff, I guess? > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > -- 4.4 > 5.4 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun May 22 09:51:20 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 10:51:20 -0400 Subject: Hamvention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <066401d1b439$6781cb30$36856190$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Jerry Weiss wrote: > I saw one Altair 8800 I haven't seen an Altair at a hamfest in this century. Out of curiosity, what was the seller asking? Bill S. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 22 11:01:34 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 17:01:34 +0100 Subject: VGA Error Code from DECpc AXP 150 (Jensen) In-Reply-To: <036201d1b423$8a3b4450$9eb1ccf0$@ntlworld.com> References: <034d01d1b417$e3c103e0$ab430ba0$@ntlworld.com> <036201d1b423$8a3b4450$9eb1ccf0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <036e01d1b443$36b7f8d0$a427ea70$@ntlworld.com> I think I have found the problem, when I took the card out to change its slot, I found there were some corroded pins on one of the chips (looks like memory). It looks like battery leakage damage, but the odd thing is that it is nowhere near a battery. Cleaning it up now to see if that will fix it. Thanks Rob From lars at nocrew.org Sun May 22 11:42:36 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 18:42:36 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201605221316.JAA04248@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> (mouse@rodents-montreal.org's message of "Sun, 22 May 2016 09:16:11 -0400 (EDT)") References: <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> <74611C32-5D35-4961-B24E-E328FAB96B8E@comcast.net> <75609656-E0F7-46DA-8636-E0975EF21F8F@gmail.com> <20160429192520.GA88507@night.db.net> <201604300209.WAA26914@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160522020655.GA6845@gmail.com> <201605221316.JAA04248@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <86vb26hwn7.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Mouse writes: > I don't really know FORTH; does it use - for subtraction? Generally, yes. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun May 22 11:54:54 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 09:54:54 -0700 Subject: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <201605221240.IAA25469@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210249.WAA18561@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521035823.GD15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211133.HAA05318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5AAAA194-93F3-4238-9BFB-70A9A5E4014D@shiresoft.com> <201605221240.IAA25469@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > On May 22, 2016, at 5:40 AM, Mouse wrote: > >>>> First off, the C standard mandates that the order of fields in a >>>> struct cannot be reordered, >>> Yes. (I think this is a Bad Thing, but I can see why they did it.) >> Given that C is a systems implementation language, how would you >> define HW related data structures where the order of the fields is >> critical (ie HW defines them). > > I can see three answers. > > 1) Don't use structs for that. Look at NetBSD's bus-space abstraction > for one possible way. I already have to do that for bit fields (ie do mask and shift). The code would look *much* cleaner/clearer if I could in fact use bit-fields. Anything that is implementation defined results in them not being able to be used. For example, I have a peripheral that has structures that define how to communicate to the peripheral. If structs are ?implemenation? defined, then I can?t use the same structure across the interface because I can?t guarantee that one side will interpret the structure the same as the other. This is *exactly* the issue with bit fields. I want to use them (because it makes sense) as part of an interface but I can?t because I can?t know what the compilers will do on each side. > > 2) Make any reordering implementation-defined, so that code for > specific implementations can know how the implementation does it. > > 3) Make reordering optional. Which way the default should go is > arguable; since my guess is that most structs are not > hardware-interface structs, the default should be reordering, with > some keyword specifying no reordering. ?and that sort of thing will cause all sorts of havoc in terms of breaking software that currently works. You?d have to go back and find/change all of the places where reordering isn?t desired. *If* it were to happen I will bet dollars to donuts that the default would be no reordering and there would be an attribute to allow for it. ?and what exactly is reordering supposed to buy you? I would argue that for what you?re talking about is not ?C? but some language that may share some syntactic/semantic similarities with ?C? but is a clearly different language. TTFN - Guy From macro at linux-mips.org Sun May 22 12:04:21 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 18:04:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <201605221240.IAA25469@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210249.WAA18561@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521035823.GD15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211133.HAA05318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5AAAA194-93F3-4238-9BFB-70A9A5E4014D@shiresoft.com> <201605221240.IAA25469@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 May 2016, Mouse wrote: > >>> First off, the C standard mandates that the order of fields in a > >>> struct cannot be reordered, > >> Yes. (I think this is a Bad Thing, but I can see why they did it.) > > Given that C is a systems implementation language, how would you > > define HW related data structures where the order of the fields is > > critical (ie HW defines them). > > I can see three answers. > > 1) Don't use structs for that. Look at NetBSD's bus-space abstraction > for one possible way. > > 2) Make any reordering implementation-defined, so that code for > specific implementations can know how the implementation does it. > > 3) Make reordering optional. Which way the default should go is > arguable; since my guess is that most structs are not > hardware-interface structs, the default should be reordering, with > some keyword specifying no reordering. 4) While the C language standard may not mandate it itself, a specific system ABI may require a particular bitfield, structure, etc. layout which C compiler implementations for that platform need to adhere to, and then you can rely on that. Of course that does not solve the problem for code which has to be portable across systems (e.g. option card drivers), but there you usually need to take extra care for differences between systems (e.g. endianness) anyway. Maciej From macro at linux-mips.org Sun May 22 12:09:26 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 18:09:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521233828.GK15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605221309.JAA16876@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 May 2016, Guy Dawson wrote: > >> I'm not even sure > > > >> size_t foo = (size_t)-1; > > > >> is legal, > > > > In C++, I don't know. In C, I'm fairly sure it's legal. > > > >> or even does what I expect it to do (namely---set foo to the largest > >> size_t value possible (pre C99). > > > > I'm not sure it does that. If you want that, I think you want > > > > size_t foo = -(size_t)1; > > While I think that > > size_t foo = (size_t)(-1); > > is what C would interpret as being meant. What the size of the thing that > by default, in this implementation, -1 would be stored in. Why bother? Won't: size_t foo = ~0UL; do (~0ULL for C99)? Or is it just an example for the purpose of general consideration rather than a solution for a specific problem? Maciej From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 22 12:18:00 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 10:18:00 -0700 Subject: 1's comp In-Reply-To: <6e0ef25d-42d4-d602-96ea-a41a725fe9c8@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <9fc9fbd4-2bbe-76e5-c92d-7bb1065cbf56@jetnet.ab.ca> <34041f47-e02c-5803-031e-56e0ee0edb15@telegraphics.com.au> <57415B52.1070802@sydex.com> <6e0ef25d-42d4-d602-96ea-a41a725fe9c8@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5741E9C8.50805@sydex.com> On 05/22/2016 06:23 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > I didn't mean performance - I meant programmer effort to ensure > robust/correct code. The Grishman book didn't reassure me, but thanks > for the additional info. Well, if you consider it carefully, does zero really have a sign? So, the convention of considering 0 to be a positive value is, in a sense, illogical. But no, I don't recall that the issue of -0 ever raised much of a problem in either CP or PP code. I've long wondered if the abandonment of ones' complement arithmetic on modern ISAs was more due to the requirement that ones; comp requires an end-around carry, where two's comp does not. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 22 12:21:19 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 18:21:19 +0100 Subject: VGA Error Code from DECpc AXP 150 (Jensen) In-Reply-To: <036e01d1b443$36b7f8d0$a427ea70$@ntlworld.com> References: <034d01d1b417$e3c103e0$ab430ba0$@ntlworld.com> <036201d1b423$8a3b4450$9eb1ccf0$@ntlworld.com> <036e01d1b443$36b7f8d0$a427ea70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <037a01d1b44e$5b3a9630$11afc290$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 22 May 2016 17:02 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: VGA Error Code from DECpc AXP 150 (Jensen) > > I think I have found the problem, when I took the card out to change its slot, I > found there were some corroded pins on one of the chips (looks like > memory). It looks like battery leakage damage, but the odd thing is that it is > nowhere near a battery. Cleaning it up now to see if that will fix it. > Sadly, the cleanup did not work. Moving to another slot, just in case it made a difference, didn't help :-( Looks like I may have to replace the card :-( Regards Rob From jsw at ieee.org Sun May 22 13:04:22 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 13:04:22 -0500 Subject: Hamvention In-Reply-To: <5741c778.88de240a.ef177.ffffe113SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5741c778.88de240a.ef177.ffffe113SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <6CC6CBFF-BCA3-481B-9079-6BC883E5AC54@ieee.org> Sorry, I didn?t ask on this one. It looked like a well used/loved machine with some wear and customizations to the front panel Jerry > On May 22, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Jerry Weiss wrote: >> I saw one Altair 8800 > > I haven't seen an Altair at a hamfest in this century. > Out of curiosity, what was the seller asking? > > Bill S. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 22 13:36:54 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 11:36:54 -0700 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/22/16 4:52 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > Now I just need to find a tool that converts IMD to raw format and > runs on FreeBSD. http://bitsavers.org/bits/convergent/ngen/imd2raw may be adequate. There may also be other versions around that people have squashed bugs in it. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 22 14:15:42 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 12:15:42 -0700 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5742055E.9030601@sydex.com> On 05/22/2016 11:36 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/22/16 4:52 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > >> Now I just need to find a tool that converts IMD to raw format and >> runs on FreeBSD. > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/convergent/ngen/imd2raw may be adequate. > There may also be other versions around that people have squashed > bugs in it. Dave Dunfield's IMDU /B will work just fine. --Chuck From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sun May 22 14:19:06 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 15:19:06 -0400 Subject: 'Inside Macintosh' books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Related to the early promotional Inside Macintosh phonebook edition, last week I scanned the documentation for two versions of the MacSupplement documentation. I have not seen this posted anywhere else so please feel free to store these in a central documentation archive. I got this documentation plus the Inside Macintosh phonebook edition along with some of the original diskettes just recently from an early developer. The February 1985 set appears to be before the Inside Macintosh printing. The May 1985 set is after. Some of the original diskettes are also posted here: http://vintagecomputer.ca/files-area/apple/macintosh/developer/# If anyone has any earlier editions (was there only one prior to February 1985?) or has/knows where the diskettes may be imaged, I'd love to fill in the set. Some of my diskettes may have been overwritten but they are in DC42 format so the diskettes can be reproduced. Hope someone finds this of interest. Santo On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-05-18 2:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Chris Hanson >> wrote: >> >>> For the original ?Inside Macintosh,? there was: >>> >>> 1. The prerelease looseleaf edition, sent to developers. >>> >> >> I remember leafing through that edition in the summer of 1984 and >> being horrified at all the Pascal-isms. >> > > I still have a copy. Most pages are dated 1983 iirc. > > It's entirely Pascal oriented, indeed. :-) > > --Toby > > > >> -ethan >> >> > From martin at shackspace.de Sun May 22 14:49:41 2016 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 21:49:41 +0200 Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( In-Reply-To: <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> References: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <20160522194941.GA4588@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Hi David! David Collins: > Martin, I might be able to help you as I think we have a 7596A. Great! :) > Are these EPROMs from the processor PCA? I think so. > Are you able to tell me which 'U' > numbers they are in the PC board? No, not now. The plotter is in the shackspace in Stuttgart and I was not there for several weeks and now I found an email saying they want to get rid of it. I already asked for the dumps here one year ago and now it seems to be really urgent. > I haven't looked at the plotter itself, but the service manual we have shows > the following part numbers for the processor PCA > > 07595-18039 > 07595-18040 > 07595-18041 > 07595-18042 I know. As I was told by the guy who took a look inside one year ago, these parts do not exist in the revision we own. But I think, they only put the firmware in two EPROMs at HP in a newer revision of the board. And if not "only", I think the dumps would be helpful anyway. It would be great if you could do a dump for me :-) Many thanks, Martin -- Martin Peters martin at shackspace.de From jrr at flippers.com Sun May 22 14:51:08 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 12:51:08 -0700 Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( In-Reply-To: <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> References: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <57420DAC.80102@flippers.com> On 05/21/2016 10:53 PM, David Collins wrote: > Martin, I might be able to help you as I think we have a 7596A. > > Are these EPROMs from the processor PCA? Are you able to tell me which 'U' > numbers they are in the PC board? > > I haven't looked at the plotter itself, but the service manual we have shows > the following part numbers for the processor PCA > > 07595-18039 > 07595-18040 > 07595-18041 > 07595-18042 > > So I'm not sure if my manual is old and the plotters at that time had 4 > EPROMs and yours is newer and has 2? Or are they on another PCA somewhere? > > Let me know. > > If the plotter we have is in the main museum facility I can possibly help > you, I will check. > > David Collins > Curator > HP Computer Museum. If your version has four EPROMs and the later (otherwise identical) machine only used two then chances are the four earlier EPROMs were simply combined into two later ones. For example, if the original EPROMs were 2708s then two of those would fit into a single 2716. The 2716 was easier to program as well being only a single voltage device. Combining the images is easy as well. The first 2708 image goes from 000h to 3FFh and the second would go from 400h to 7FFh, as a 2716 holds 000h to 7FFh worth of data vs. 000h to 3FFh for the older 2708. Of course this would also work for 2716s into 2732s, etc. just the data boundaries change to reflect the device size. John :-#)# > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Martin > Peters > Sent: Sunday, 22 May 2016 7:21 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( > > Hello, > > the EPROMs are labeled 07595-18045 and 07595-18046. > > Can anyone do a dump for me? It's really urgent. Our local hackerspace wants > to get rid of it, if there is no chance to get the Firmware again. > > greetings, > Martin > > -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun May 22 14:52:29 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 14:52:29 -0500 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201605221316.JAA04248@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> <74611C32-5D35-4961-B24E-E328FAB96B8E@comcast.net> <75609656-E0F7-46DA-8636-E0975EF21F8F@gmail.com> <20160429192520.GA88507@night.db.net> <201604300209.WAA26914@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160522020655.GA6845@gmail.com> <201605221316.JAA04248@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160522195229.GB6845@gmail.com> On Sun, May 22, 2016, Mouse wrote: > >> Also, PostScript has a lot of language syntax, whereas FORTH has > >> immediate words that act like language syntax. (The difference is > >> that FORTH makes it possible to change those words, thereby changing > >> the apparent syntax.) > > What do you mean by that? > > Consider a simple definition > > : foo swap - ; ( inverted subtraction ) > /foo { exch sub } def % inverted subtraction > > (The first is FORTH[%], the second PostScript.) Each of these has some > "syntax" bits. In FORTH, :, ;, (, and ). In PostScript, the leading > /, {, }, and %. Interesting. I thought { } were just plain old words, but I'll at least concede the rest. > The difference is that in FORTH, you can create new immediate words > and/or redefine the existing ones; : can do something other than > beginning the definition of a word, and you can arrange to begin the > definition of a word with something other than :. In PostScript, none > of this is mutable short of hacking on the underlying implementation > (and if you do that the result isn't PostScript any longer). > > [%] I think. I don't really know FORTH; does it use - for subtraction? > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B -- Eric Christopherson From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun May 22 16:08:47 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 17:08:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521233828.GK15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605221309.JAA16876@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201605222108.RAA28966@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> size_t foo = (size_t)-1; >>> size_t foo = -(size_t)1; >> size_t foo = (size_t)(-1); > Why bother? Won't: > size_t foo = ~0UL; > do (~0ULL for C99)? Only if size_t is no larger than unsigned long int (unsigned long long int for the ULL version). I don't think that's guaranteed. Mouse From macro at linux-mips.org Sun May 22 16:18:25 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 22:18:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201605222108.RAA28966@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521233828.GK15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605221309.JAA16876@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201605222108.RAA28966@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 May 2016, Mouse wrote: > >>>> size_t foo = (size_t)-1; > >>> size_t foo = -(size_t)1; > >> size_t foo = (size_t)(-1); > > Why bother? Won't: > > size_t foo = ~0UL; > > do (~0ULL for C99)? > > Only if size_t is no larger than unsigned long int (unsigned long long > int for the ULL version). I don't think that's guaranteed. How can you have the type of `size_t' wider than the widest unsigned integer type in the respective revision of the language standard? Maciej From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 22 11:02:41 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 12:02:41 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes Message-ID: Background - I have a PDP 11/40 that came to me with a CPU backplane and a general purpose 4 slot peripheral backplane. The CPU backplane came to me connected to the 4 slot via a std 11/40 M981. In the 4-slot I have I have a working 64K solid-state RAM card, M7856 serial card, M9312 bootstrap/console card, and an RL02 drive controller. I can access RAM from the console, run the console program (monitor program) off the M9312 through the serial card. I can't boot yet off the RL02 and I am thinking this is due to a termination issue, not sure yet. I decided I need more backplane to go any farther. So I decided to insert two 32K core memory backplanes in between the original two backplanes that came with the system. My plan is to replace the solid-state RAM card with core, and this will free up a slot on the 4-slot backplane for a terminator. Am I correct in my logic? I have connected the "new" backplanes using M920's. Imagine the original system with a core backplane wedged in the middle. Power seems fine, DC LO AC LO fine. Right now there is nothing in the core backplanes, First I want to verify that I have them arrayed correctly and that I can still communicate with the (now) 4th backplane in the back. I can run "chase the lights" from the console but the serial card seems to have stopped working. It appears that the console program is being loaded and runs from the M9312 but nothing is appearing on the terminal. I cannot send an "A" to the terminal, the most basic test I can think of. Could be the the M7856 card decided to die on me just now, or something else is wrong. Does anyone have a PDP 11 /05/10/35/40 and have experimented about what you can and can't do with backplanes? I know that there are a lot of variables here, so I'd like to start with the basics Basic Question #1 Do I need grant cards in *every* empty slot of the core backplane, including the end slots with the M920's? Basic Question #2 Can you only use the core backplanes for core memory (assume yes), or are they capable of holding other types of cards temporarily? (yes/no/maybe) I am researching the system config on my own, but I thought if anyone had any advice I'd love to hear it, make troubleshooting a little easier. I have read up on the subject: http://retrocmp.com/how-tos/setup-a-pdp-11-unibus-backplane https://trmm.net/PDP-11 I see this is not a simple little thing. Working to find more GC cards now. Thanks b -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 22 11:33:02 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 16:33:02 +0000 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Strictly the core backplanes are not Unibus backplanes. They have Unibus In and Out connectors, but the slots are wired for the core memory board, not Unibus boards (like SPCs -- Small Peripheral Controllers -- which is what you serial port is). > Basic Question #1 > Do I need grant cards in *every* empty slot of the core backplane, > including the end slots with the M920's? No. In fact in most cases it is wrong to put grant continuity cards in there. However in a lot of cases a special backplane (like your core memory one) will have some spare slots (perhaps the core memory doesn't take up all 9 slots). And DEC often (but not always) wired those so you could put SPCs in there. In which case you will need grant continuity cards in those slots if you have nothing else in them. > Basic Question #2 > Can you only use the core backplanes for core memory (assume yes), or are > they capable of holding other types of cards temporarily? (yes/no/maybe) See above. The slots for the core memory and controller cards are special and can only take those cards. But you might have normal SPC slots on the same backplane. You need to find the 'module utilisation chart' for that core memory backplane. Be warned that DEC normally drew these looking at the _wire side_ of the backplane, not the side where the PCBs go! -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 22 12:09:14 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 13:09:14 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 12:33 PM, tony duell wrote: > Strictly the core backplanes are not Unibus backplanes. They have Unibus In > and Out connectors, but the slots are wired for the core memory board, > not Unibus boards (like SPCs -- Small Peripheral Controllers -- which is > what > you serial port is). > > > Basic Question #1 > > Do I need grant cards in *every* empty slot of the core backplane, > > including the end slots with the M920's? > > No. In fact in most cases it is wrong to put grant continuity cards in > there. > However in a lot of cases a special backplane (like your core memory > one) will have some spare slots (perhaps the core memory doesn't take > up all 9 slots). And DEC often (but not always) wired those so you could > put SPCs in there. In which case you will need grant continuity cards in > those > slots if you have nothing else in them. > > Tony, Are you saying remove all of the GC cards, just leave the slots blank? Here is a photo of what I have now: http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-40/coreplanes_installed.jpg remove the gc cards from the core planes? I will read up on this more, just getting started. thanks. Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 22 12:10:13 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 17:10:13 +0000 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > Are you saying remove all of the GC cards, just leave the slots blank? Yes, from the slots that are designed to take the core memory or its controllers (I assume, given you have special backplanes, there are boards with the core planes on, and more boards with the XY drivers or the sense/inhibit logic on). Do you have a diagram of where the core boards should go. If so, are there slots in the backplane left over. What are those 'extra' slots for? -tony From mark.darvill at mac.com Sun May 22 12:22:49 2016 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 18:22:49 +0100 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84268777-FC1B-4DAE-99E0-7A2A92837165@mac.com> The core memory/CPU backplane is a special case and doesn?t need grant cards. If you have linked up to the expansion Unibus then you need to check you have the NPG jumper in row C, Pins A1 and B1 in each slot. If these do not have wire wrap then you will either need to wire wrap them or insert a G727 into the backplane slot. Without these the units will hang on attempting to use a card that requires DMA access. Hope this helps. Mark > On 22 May 2016, at 18:10, tony duell wrote: > > >> Are you saying remove all of the GC cards, just leave the slots blank? > > Yes, from the slots that are designed to take the core memory or its > controllers (I assume, given you have special backplanes, there are > boards with the core planes on, and more boards with the XY drivers > or the sense/inhibit logic on). > > Do you have a diagram of where the core boards should go. If so, are > there slots in the backplane left over. What are those 'extra' > slots for? > > -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 22 12:23:22 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 13:23:22 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 1:10 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > Are you saying remove all of the GC cards, just leave the slots blank? > > Yes, from the slots that are designed to take the core memory or its > controllers (I assume, given you have special backplanes, there are > boards with the core planes on, and more boards with the XY drivers > or the sense/inhibit logic on). > > Do you have a diagram of where the core boards should go. If so, are > there slots in the backplane left over. What are those 'extra' > slots for? > > -tony > I have core memory cards that fill these backplanes from another system. I removed the cards, kept them sorted for re-insertion after I get the backplanes communicating properly. So, this is just a temporary set up. I wanted to migrate the core to a different 11/40 because I have the CPU and power supply tested and working. By eliminating power and CPU variables I can troubleshoot just the core cards one at a time. I have a few core cards that work so I will be able to work through the unknowns in this system. The system they came from needs power supply work, etc. Too many things to try to fix all at once. Thanks for the help. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 22 13:19:34 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 14:19:34 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <84268777-FC1B-4DAE-99E0-7A2A92837165@mac.com> Message-ID: On May 22, 2016 1:22 PM, "Mark Darvill" wrote: > > The core memory/CPU backplane is a special case and doesn?t need grant cards. > > If you have linked up to the expansion Unibus then you need to check you have the NPG jumper in row C, Pins A1 and B1 in each slot. If these do not have wire wrap then you will either need to wire wrap them or insert a G727 into the backplane slot. Without these the units will hang on attempting to use a card that requires DMA access. > > Hope this helps. > > Mark > Thanks Mark..yes I have one slot that needs the npg, it's in place. I have not had a chance to test with grant cards removed hope that does the trick From useddec at gmail.com Sun May 22 14:02:29 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 14:02:29 -0500 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <84268777-FC1B-4DAE-99E0-7A2A92837165@mac.com> Message-ID: Hi William, If I follow right, you have gotten some great advice,,but I'm not sure about a few things. Is your 4 slot SPC a DD11-A, DD11-B, or DD11-CK/CF? The standard one used in most 1140s is the DD11-B, and a lot had DD11-Cs added later. The DD11-B will not work with the RL11 and probably not with the MOS board. The last slot of the the Unibus should have a terminator in A/B. I don't know how well you know the 11/40, but most cpu options require jumper changes on various cpu boards. These can can weird problems also. You can take out the options, M7236, 37, 38, 38, and M787, reset the jumpers, then put them back in when everything else works. Shortening the bus is also helpful when troubleshooting. PDP 11/40s are great! Good luck and have fun! Paul On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 1:19 PM, william degnan wrote: > On May 22, 2016 1:22 PM, "Mark Darvill" wrote: > > > > The core memory/CPU backplane is a special case and doesn?t need grant > cards. > > > > If you have linked up to the expansion Unibus then you need to check you > have the NPG jumper in row C, Pins A1 and B1 in each slot. If these do not > have wire wrap then you will either need to wire wrap them or insert a G727 > into the backplane slot. Without these the units will hang on attempting to > use a card that requires DMA access. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Mark > > > > Thanks Mark..yes I have one slot that needs the npg, it's in place. > > I have not had a chance to test with grant cards removed hope that does the > trick > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun May 22 17:22:49 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 15:22:49 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201605221309.JAA16876@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521233828.GK15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605221309.JAA16876@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <34EB50DD-B513-4394-B3B1-563DDD0C433E@eschatologist.net> On May 22, 2016, at 6:09 AM, Mouse wrote: > > I've often thought about building a C implementation that goes out of > its way to break assumptions like "integers are two's complement with > no padding bits" or "floats are IEEE" or "nil pointers are all-bits-0" > or "all pointers are the same size and representation" or etc. Just use Symbolics C on a Symbolics or ZetaC on a TI Explorer. (ZetaC was recently put in the Public Domain by its author, so you can take a look at how it was implemented.) Both of them I believe implemented C89. There?s also someone writing a C to Common Lisp translator that takes some of the same approaches as those compilers: Something like that would make it possible to pull C code into a project like Mezzano. (Another approach would be to write an LLVM back-end that generates Common Lisp using the same approach as ZetaC, and port clang to it.) -- Chris From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun May 22 17:26:35 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 17:26:35 -0500 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FYI, Tim at turntablebasics.com has pretty much every belt and wheel that PRB and/or their close competitors offer. He has no shipping minimum and a very low basic shipping rate for light little parts like belts ($1.00 or so). http://www.turntablebasics.com/ He also stocks a number of hard-to-find analog type items, such as silicone damping fluids in multiple viscosities.. On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 1:11 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: > > On 20/05/2016 17:18, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > >> Do you have the dimensions on that belt handy? All of my Commodore > >> tape drives are erratic due to aged belts. > > > > These are the ones I bought, 80mm diameter: > > > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301304228049 > > Perfect. Thanks! I didn't want to trust the exact sizes on my > stretched and flabby belts. > > So 80mm dia/251mm length, 1.2mm across, square belt. > > What's odd is I'm finding plenty of UK sellers and essentially no > sellers based in the States. How strange. > > Thanks! > > -ethan > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 22 18:57:57 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 16:57:57 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4404 servcie manuals needed In-Reply-To: <121320090850.5777.4B24AAD8000475350000169122243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <121320090850.5777.4B24AAD8000475350000169122243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: time warp. I found the manuals and software I bought in 2010, still in the unopened box yesterday, and since then I got a base unit (no storage box). Unfortunately, the firmware that was sent to me that I uploaded to bitsavers is mostly FF's. Fortunately, I could read the eproms in mine, the lights blink, but there is no video. If someone has the scsi storage box, dumping the 6502 floppy eprom would be really helpful (and maybe taking some pictures of the board). Firmware and pictures of the inside of the 4404 going up on bitsavers today. I'm out of time today to read the floppies, there are a lot, for 4404 and 4405, OS, C, Smalltalk, and Lisp. Hopefully, readable. On 12/13/09 12:50 AM, g-wright at att.net wrote: > I would like to get a Tek 4404 computer going but lack any service > manuals. The system turns on but has no curser on the screen. Has > good power from the Power supply and heater is on in the CRT. > Has a row of LEDs on the mother board. Does anyone know how > to read these. > > - Thanks, Jerry > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 22 19:07:41 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 17:07:41 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4404 servcie manuals needed In-Reply-To: References: <121320090850.5777.4B24AAD8000475350000169122243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <3495ad8c-bcd5-79f1-2e1a-863ed10b0cf0@bitsavers.org> On 5/22/16 4:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > If someone has the scsi storage box, dumping the 6502 floppy eprom would be really > helpful (and maybe taking some pictures of the board). > turns out that one was good. the Adaptec 4000 dump was the bad one From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun May 22 19:34:06 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 20:34:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes Message-ID: <20160523003406.99E5818C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Degnan > So I decided to insert two 32K core memory backplanes 32KW, those would be MM11-U backplanes, right? > My plan is to replace the solid-state RAM card with core, and this will > free up a slot on the 4-slot backplane for a terminator. Terminators all only go in the last slot of the last backplane anyway (either that, or a UNIBUS 'out' cable), so adding extra backplanes shouldn't give you "a slot .. for a terminator". Also, Paul's point is a good one: the hex memory cards need so-called 'MUD slots' (hex), not SPC slots (quad), and only (IIRC) the DD11-C/D have MUD slots. (Those came in with the 11/04-34, IIRC). > the serial card seems to have stopped working. It appears that the > console program is being loaded and runs from the M9312 but nothing is > appearing on the terminal. I cannot send an "A" to the terminal, the > most basic test I can think of. Hmm. You can read/write the console registers from the console, though, it sounds like? My guess would be that if your serial port is EIA, somehow you're missing -15V or something on the DD11 in its new location. Study the -11/35-40 system manual to learn about which 'bricks' supply which voltages to which system units. And while you're at it, check that you have the right 'bricks' for the MM11-U. The -11/35-40 system manual has lots of text on how to support the MM11-U. > Can you only use the core backplanes for core memory (assume yes), or > are they capable of holding other types of cards temporarily? AFAICR, the MM11-U backplane does _not_ have an SPC slot in it. IIRC, the 16KW MM11-U board set is a quad controller board, and 3 hex boards (core, X-Y and something else). So two sets (the backplane holds two) would be 8, so one empty slot - which IIRC is blank. Check the MM11-U manual, it's available. > I have one slot that needs the npg, it's in place. ??? _Every_ SPC/MUD slot which does not have a DMA device in it _must_ have the jumper on the backplane (or the _double_ width UNIBUS grant card, whose number escapes my memory, which contains a NPG jumper). Not sure if that was the import of what you wrote there. Noel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun May 22 20:36:49 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 21:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521233828.GK15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605221309.JAA16876@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201605222108.RAA28966@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201605230136.VAA18251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Why bother? Won't: >>> size_t foo = ~0UL; >>> do (~0ULL for C99)? >> Only if size_t is no larger than unsigned long int (unsigned long >> long int for the ULL version). I don't think that's guaranteed. > How can you have the type of `size_t' wider than the widest unsigned > integer type in the respective revision of the language standard? unsigned long long int isn't necessarily the largest integral type. Nor do I see anything requiring size_t to be no larger than it. uintmax_t, on the other hand, would be fine; it _is_ promised to be no smaller than size_t (or any other unsigned integral type). size_t foo = ~(uintmax_t)0; should work fine to set foo to all-bits-set. (Since size_t is unsigned, this will set it to be its largest possible value.) I think uintmax_t is another blemish in the standard, since it makes certain kinds of innovation impossible. (For example, the presence of uintmax_t makes it impossible to extend the compiler to recognize uintXX_t as "unsigned integer type with at least XX bits" for all XX, presumably with library support for integers over hardware-supported sizes. At least without no longer, strictly, being a C compiler.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From kspt.tor at gmail.com Sun May 22 21:30:37 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 04:30:37 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 21 May 2016 at 18:38, Mattis Lind wrote: > I have now added some 80 more floppies to download if you would like to > check. > > http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/norsk-data-floppy-disks Thanks Mattis! Downloaded. I will go through them soon. Chuck, the problem with IMDU is that it's an ms-dos program and Torfinn hasn't yet found a working emulator for his BSD setup. I'm sure there is one. But it's very inconvenient to have to go through MSDOS for this, so Al's suggestion of the imd2raw tool from Convergent is very welcome! I have just tested it and it works fine. Built on 64-bit Linux. I'll make it easy to batch-process all those images. (And it contains a simple documentation of the IMD format, I may be blind but I could not find any the last time I went through this or I would have written my own tool). (NB: Had to change 'convergent' to 'Convergent' in that URL to find it). -Tor From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 22 21:49:06 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 19:49:06 -0700 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57426FA2.8070603@sydex.com> On 05/22/2016 07:30 PM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > Chuck, the problem with IMDU is that it's an ms-dos program and > Torfinn hasn't yet found a working emulator for his BSD setup. I'm > sure there is one. But it's very inconvenient to have to go through > MSDOS for this, so Al's suggestion of the imd2raw tool from > Convergent is very welcome! I have just tested it and it works fine. > Built on 64-bit Linux. I'll make it easy to batch-process all those > images. (And it contains a simple documentation of the IMD format, I > may be blind but I could not find any the last time I went through > this or I would have written my own tool). (NB: Had to change > 'convergent' to 'Convergent' in that URL to find it). IMDU runs fine on DOSEMU; I've tried it on OpenBSD as well as 64 bit Ubuntu (trusty). I know that there's also a version for NetBSD, but I haven't tried it. Since IMDU is basically a file processor, the I/O requirements aren't strange. I still do a lot of DOS work on my Linux boxes. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 22 18:07:00 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 19:07:00 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <84268777-FC1B-4DAE-99E0-7A2A92837165@mac.com> Message-ID: Paul, What terminator card exactly? As I had written originally, the system was functional before I added the core planes. I was thinking that I needed a terminator now that I have more than just the cpu plus four slot plane, but I did not have the space for it along with all of the cards I already have installed. http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-40/card-layout_moved-plane_Pic2.JPG (I removed the grant cards from the core planes per Tony's suggestion.) -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From useddec at gmail.com Sun May 22 18:55:32 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 18:55:32 -0500 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <84268777-FC1B-4DAE-99E0-7A2A92837165@mac.com> Message-ID: An M930 terminator in the far left slot in A/B, where you have the RL11 (M7762). I don't remember if the G7273 is a unibus or q-bus grant card. I always use the G727 , I think, the little 2 inch by 2 inch or so. Try front panel funstions with the RL11 out. You'll probably have to move it to slot 3. There is a trick to using a M9301 or m9312 in an 11/40, but I don't remember it now. It's been a while since since I've played with an 11/40. On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 6:07 PM, william degnan wrote: > Paul, > What terminator card exactly? As I had written originally, the system was > functional before I added the core planes. I was thinking that I needed a > terminator now that I have more than just the cpu plus four slot plane, but > I did not have the space for it along with all of the cards I already have > installed. > > > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-40/card-layout_moved-plane_Pic2.JPG > (I removed the grant cards from the core planes per Tony's suggestion.) > > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > From jws at jwsss.com Mon May 23 02:07:26 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 00:07:26 -0700 Subject: Most useful 3D Printer I've seen Message-ID: <728d660e-b173-5695-fb01-7c709e379f47@jwsss.com> Why have cool looking replica systems. Edible ones would be so much better. http://phys.org/news/2016-05-d-candy-maker-billed-world-york.html thanks Jim From north at alum.mit.edu Mon May 23 00:27:08 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 22:27:08 -0700 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <84268777-FC1B-4DAE-99E0-7A2A92837165@mac.com> Message-ID: <47f416d6-4c13-679c-25ec-8186cc9ab937@alum.mit.edu> The M9312 can be setup to also act as a UNIBUS terminator card, and can reside in the A-B position of the last UNIBUS backplane slot (ie, the 'UNIBUS out' slot). Some of the jumpers on the card need to be configured to allow this, the M9312 technical manual gives the exact jumper configuration needed. So on the 11/40, you can replace the M930 (or M9301) bus terminator card with the M9312 with termination enabled. On 5/22/2016 4:55 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > An M930 terminator in the far left slot in A/B, where you have the RL11 > (M7762). I don't remember if the G7273 is a unibus or q-bus grant card. I > always use the G727 , I think, the little 2 inch by 2 inch or so. > > Try front panel funstions with the RL11 out. You'll probably have to move > it to slot 3. > > There is a trick to using a M9301 or m9312 in an 11/40, but I don't > remember it now. It's been a while since since I've played with an 11/40. > > On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 6:07 PM, william degnan > wrote: > >> Paul, >> What terminator card exactly? As I had written originally, the system was >> functional before I added the core planes. I was thinking that I needed a >> terminator now that I have more than just the cpu plus four slot plane, but >> I did not have the space for it along with all of the cards I already have >> installed. >> >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-40/card-layout_moved-plane_Pic2.JPG >> (I removed the grant cards from the core planes per Tony's suggestion.) >> >> >> -- >> @ BillDeg: >> Web: vintagecomputer.net >> Twitter: @billdeg >> Youtube: @billdeg >> Unauthorized Bio >> From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon May 23 00:32:38 2016 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 22:32:38 -0700 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <84268777-FC1B-4DAE-99E0-7A2A92837165@mac.com> Message-ID: <790a9a3a-2f7f-b4db-8161-f02f8039ebd4@mindspring.com> The M9312 can be setup to also act as a UNIBUS terminator card, and can reside in the A-B position of the last UNIBUS backplane slot (ie, the 'UNIBUS out' slot). Some of the jumpers on the card need to be configured to allow this, the M9312 technical manual gives the exact jumper configuration needed. So on the 11/40, you can replace the M930 (or M9301) bus terminator card with the M9312 with termination enabled. On 5/22/2016 4:55 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > An M930 terminator in the far left slot in A/B, where you have the RL11 > (M7762). I don't remember if the G7273 is a unibus or q-bus grant card. I > always use the G727 , I think, the little 2 inch by 2 inch or so. > > Try front panel funstions with the RL11 out. You'll probably have to move > it to slot 3. > > There is a trick to using a M9301 or m9312 in an 11/40, but I don't > remember it now. It's been a while since since I've played with an 11/40. > > On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 6:07 PM, william degnan > wrote: > >> Paul, >> What terminator card exactly? As I had written originally, the system was >> functional before I added the core planes. I was thinking that I needed a >> terminator now that I have more than just the cpu plus four slot plane, but >> I did not have the space for it along with all of the cards I already have >> installed. >> >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-40/card-layout_moved-plane_Pic2.JPG >> (I removed the grant cards from the core planes per Tony's suggestion.) >> >> >> -- >> @ BillDeg: >> Web: vintagecomputer.net >> Twitter: @billdeg >> Youtube: @billdeg >> Unauthorized Bio >> -- Don North AK6DN From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 23 01:56:02 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 08:56:02 +0200 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <84268777-FC1B-4DAE-99E0-7A2A92837165@mac.com> Message-ID: 2016-05-23 1:07 GMT+02:00 william degnan : > Paul, > What terminator card exactly? As I had written originally, the system was > functional before I added the core planes. I was thinking that I needed a > terminator now that I have more than just the cpu plus four slot plane, but > I did not have the space for it along with all of the cards I already have > installed. > > > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-40/card-layout_moved-plane_Pic2.JPG > (I removed the grant cards from the core planes per Tony's suggestion.) You don't have a terminator in the last slot of the bus. There should be a M930/M9301/M9312 installed there, not a RL11. It is possible to put the M9312 / M9301 there if you install the five jumpers (In my 11/10 there is a M9301-YF installed in a regular Unibus slot). With jumpers in the M9301/M9312 will terminate the BGx and NPG signals as well. Without jumpers these signals will be unterminated which is not good. Be careful to not put it into a MUD slot with the jumpers in, though. It is not clear to me if the DL11-W repsonds correctly when you try to address it or just doesn't output anything. Check grant continuity from last slot to the M981. But just to output a character on the console BG/NPG continuity wouldn't matter. Booting from the RL11 will not work unless the NPG chain (and BG chains are OK). I actually think that the reason for the RL11 not working is that the grant signals don't have a pull up anywhere in your config. /Mattis > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > From tingox at gmail.com Mon May 23 06:25:49 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 13:25:49 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Isn't it possible to run dosemu on FreeBSD? I use imdv in dosemu on Linux. Unfortunately, dosemu only works on i386, not amd64. -- Regards, Torfinn From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 23 06:47:16 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 13:47:16 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-05-23 4:30 GMT+02:00 Tor Arntsen : > On 21 May 2016 at 18:38, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > I have now added some 80 more floppies to download if you would like to > > check. > > > > http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/norsk-data-floppy-disks > > Thanks Mattis! > Downloaded. I will go through them soon. > > > That would be great to have feedback on them since if there is a problem then I hopefully can re-read that floppy. There is one that is strange that I know of. If someone likes to put the entire archive on a better place than my Dropbox it would also be a good thing. Here is the complete tgz: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/ND10/NorskData-NORD-10-floppy-images.tgz /Mattis From tingox at gmail.com Mon May 23 06:54:49 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 13:54:49 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/22/16 4:52 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > >> Now I just need to find a tool that converts IMD to raw format and >> runs on FreeBSD. > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/convergent/ngen/imd2raw > may be adequate. There may also be other versions around > that people have squashed bugs in it. Thanks! It compiles fine on freeBSD too (FreeBSD 9.3-stable / amd64). It took a few moments before I realizede that it is used like this: imd2raw < image.imd > image.raw I must be getting old. But it works, no emulator environment needed. :-) -- Regards, Torfinn From tingox at gmail.com Mon May 23 07:59:17 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 14:59:17 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Update on NDwiki: On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:20 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> >> Ah, positive news. In the meantime I've been half-busy creating a >> local (private, for now) re-construction of NDwiki, from archive.org. > > I was thinking about doing the same, but so far I haven't. > >> BTW in case you don't >> have a public server available I do have a mostly spare Linode server, >> or alternatively I could get another - they're relatively cheap, and >> have great network access. > > Thanks. > There is also Jay West's standing offer to host classic computing websites. > Anyway, the two busy Swedes will decide; I'm just offering to help. > I will happily implement / set up the solution they decide on, as long > as the result is that NDwiki.org is online again. > > I will post any news when I have them (since busy people is involved, > it could take some time). NDWiki is up again. You find it at ndwiki.org Mostly working - there are some templates that doesn't work properly yet. I'm no Mediawiki / CSS expert, so it might take me a while to figure out howe to fix those problems. If you find anything else that dowsn't work, please send me an email. You can find my email adress via my User page on the wiki: http://www.ndwiki.org/wiki/User:Tingo Enjoy! -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon May 23 08:38:44 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 09:38:44 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: <20160523003406.99E5818C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160523003406.99E5818C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > > > So I decided to insert two 32K core memory backplanes > > 32KW, those would be MM11-U backplanes, right? > Here is a closeup. I have have related docs. http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-40/32Kx16-MemoryBackplane_5010344C_label.jpg > > > My plan is to replace the solid-state RAM card with core, and this > will > > free up a slot on the 4-slot backplane for a terminator. > > Terminators all only go in the last slot of the last backplane anyway > (either > that, or a UNIBUS 'out' cable), so adding extra backplanes shouldn't give > you > "a slot .. for a terminator". > > Thanks for clarifying. > Also, Paul's point is a good one: the hex memory cards need so-called 'MUD > slots' (hex), not SPC slots (quad), and only (IIRC) the DD11-C/D have MUD > slots. (Those came in with the 11/04-34, IIRC). > > It is 3011-cf / 70-12445 1979 > > the serial card seems to have stopped working. It appears that the > > console program is being loaded and runs from the M9312 but nothing > is > > appearing on the terminal. I cannot send an "A" to the terminal, the > > most basic test I can think of. > > Hmm. You can read/write the console registers from the console, though, it > sounds like? My guess would be that if your serial port is EIA, somehow > you're missing -15V or something on the DD11 in its new location. Study the > -11/35-40 system manual to learn about which 'bricks' supply which voltages > to which system units. > > OK, but will always watch this. > And while you're at it, check that you have the right 'bricks' for the > MM11-U. > The -11/35-40 system manual has lots of text on how to support the MM11-U. > > > Can you only use the core backplanes for core memory (assume yes), or > > are they capable of holding other types of cards temporarily? > > > AFAICR, the MM11-U backplane does _not_ have an SPC slot in it. IIRC, the > 16KW MM11-U board set is a quad controller board, and 3 hex boards (core, > X-Y > and something else). So two sets (the backplane holds two) would be 8, so > one > empty slot - which IIRC is blank. Check the MM11-U manual, it's available. > > Came with M7891 RAM installed in the 3011-cf backplane. > > I have one slot that needs the npg, it's in place. > > ??? _Every_ SPC/MUD slot which does not have a DMA device in it _must_ have > the jumper on the backplane (or the _double_ width UNIBUS grant card, whose > number escapes my memory, which contains a NPG jumper). Not sure if that > was the import of what you wrote there. > > Note - System came to me as thus, after the CPU, the 3011-cf backplane had the following: UNIBUS 10 A-B (LEFT SIDE OF UNIBUS) M7856 10 F-C (RS232 WITH 19.2 OPTION?) G7273 11 C-D 7891 12 A-F (64k MEMORY) M9312 13 A-B (ROM CARD) 672A 13 D (GRANT CONT.) I am going to switch to another backplane and start over. Don't know what I am doing yet to be honest. I have to read the manuals and get better educated to properly get these parts working together correctly. Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 23 09:18:53 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 16:18:53 +0200 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <20160523003406.99E5818C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-05-23 15:38 GMT+02:00 william degnan : > > > > > > > > > So I decided to insert two 32K core memory backplanes > > > > 32KW, those would be MM11-U backplanes, right? > > > > Here is a closeup. I have have related docs. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-40/32Kx16-MemoryBackplane_5010344C_label.jpg > > > > > > > My plan is to replace the solid-state RAM card with core, and this > > will > > > free up a slot on the 4-slot backplane for a terminator. > > > > Terminators all only go in the last slot of the last backplane anyway > > (either > > that, or a UNIBUS 'out' cable), so adding extra backplanes shouldn't give > > you > > "a slot .. for a terminator". > > > > > Thanks for clarifying. > > > > Also, Paul's point is a good one: the hex memory cards need so-called > 'MUD > > slots' (hex), not SPC slots (quad), and only (IIRC) the DD11-C/D have MUD > > slots. (Those came in with the 11/04-34, IIRC). > > > > > It is 3011-cf / 70-12445 1979 > > > > > the serial card seems to have stopped working. It appears that the > > > console program is being loaded and runs from the M9312 but nothing > > is > > > appearing on the terminal. I cannot send an "A" to the terminal, > the > > > most basic test I can think of. > > > > Hmm. You can read/write the console registers from the console, though, > it > > sounds like? My guess would be that if your serial port is EIA, somehow > > you're missing -15V or something on the DD11 in its new location. Study > the > > -11/35-40 system manual to learn about which 'bricks' supply which > voltages > > to which system units. > > > > > OK, but will always watch this. > > > > And while you're at it, check that you have the right 'bricks' for the > > MM11-U. > > The -11/35-40 system manual has lots of text on how to support the > MM11-U. > > > > > Can you only use the core backplanes for core memory (assume yes), > or > > > are they capable of holding other types of cards temporarily? > > > > > > > > AFAICR, the MM11-U backplane does _not_ have an SPC slot in it. IIRC, the > > 16KW MM11-U board set is a quad controller board, and 3 hex boards (core, > > X-Y > > and something else). So two sets (the backplane holds two) would be 8, so > > one > > empty slot - which IIRC is blank. Check the MM11-U manual, it's > available. > > > > > > Came with M7891 RAM installed in the 3011-cf backplane. > > > > > I have one slot that needs the npg, it's in place. > > > > ??? _Every_ SPC/MUD slot which does not have a DMA device in it _must_ > have > > the jumper on the backplane (or the _double_ width UNIBUS grant card, > whose > > number escapes my memory, which contains a NPG jumper). Not sure if that > > was the import of what you wrote there. > > > > > > Note - System came to me as thus, after the CPU, the 3011-cf backplane had > the following: > I have no idea what "3011-cf" is. Isn't it just a a DD11-C backplane with power-wring entering from the back, rather than through small circuit boards? > > UNIBUS 10 A-B (LEFT SIDE OF UNIBUS) > M7856 10 F-C (RS232 WITH 19.2 OPTION?) > G7273 11 C-D > 7891 12 A-F (64k MEMORY) > M9312 13 A-B (ROM CARD) > 672A 13 D (GRANT CONT.) > That looks like a reasonable setup provided that jumpers W1- W5 are installed on the M9312. You should be able to install the RL11 in slot 11 when you remove the G7273. Make sure that the wire-wrap between CA1-CB1 is cut on slot 11 if you install the RL11 there. Also make sure that CA1-CB1 wire-wrap jumper is installed in slot 13 (or install G7273 card in 13C-D) > > I am going to switch to another backplane and start over. Don't know what > I am doing yet to be honest. I have to read the manuals and get better > educated to properly get these parts working together correctly. > But all this still doesn't now explain the problem that you cannot access (or send characters to) the serial port. It could very well be the power problem as Noel suggested. If I were you I would try to get back to the state where it worked, shortening the Unibus to just include the 4-slot back plane and the CPU backplane and also remove the RL11 for now. Then install the RL11 in slot 11 when everything is working. /Mattis > > Bill > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > From macro at linux-mips.org Mon May 23 09:40:53 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 15:40:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201605230136.VAA18251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210236.WAA06464@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521031843.GC15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605211124.HAA29834@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521233828.GK15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605221309.JAA16876@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201605222108.RAA28966@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201605230136.VAA18251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 May 2016, Mouse wrote: > > How can you have the type of `size_t' wider than the widest unsigned > > integer type in the respective revision of the language standard? > > unsigned long long int isn't necessarily the largest integral type. > Nor do I see anything requiring size_t to be no larger than it. Right, an implementation is free to add its own extended integer types and `size_t' is not required to have the same width as one of the standard integer types. There's a recommendation for `size_t' not to be wider than `long' (unless necessary, heh), however that's just it, not mandatory. > uintmax_t, on the other hand, would be fine; it _is_ promised to be no > smaller than size_t (or any other unsigned integral type). > > size_t foo = ~(uintmax_t)0; > > should work fine to set foo to all-bits-set. (Since size_t is > unsigned, this will set it to be its largest possible value.) But there's no `uintmax_t' in C89. If playing with casts already, I think the most obvious solution is simply: size_t foo = ~(size_t)0; Maciej From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon May 23 09:46:46 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 10:46:46 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <20160523003406.99E5818C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > I have no idea what "3011-cf" is. Isn't it just a a DD11-C backplane with > power-wring entering from the back, rather than through small circuit > boards? > > > > > > UNIBUS 10 A-B (LEFT SIDE OF UNIBUS) > > M7856 10 F-C (RS232 WITH 19.2 OPTION?) > > G7273 11 C-D > > 7891 12 A-F (64k MEMORY) > > M9312 13 A-B (ROM CARD) > > 672A 13 D (GRANT CONT.) > > > > That looks like a reasonable setup provided that jumpers W1- W5 are > installed on the M9312. You should be able to install the RL11 in slot 11 > when you remove the G7273. Make sure that the wire-wrap between CA1-CB1 is > cut on slot 11 if you install the RL11 there. Also make sure that CA1-CB1 > wire-wrap jumper is installed in slot 13 (or install G7273 card in 13C-D) > > > > > I am going to switch to another backplane and start over. Don't know > what > > I am doing yet to be honest. I have to read the manuals and get better > > educated to properly get these parts working together correctly. > > > > But all this still doesn't now explain the problem that you cannot access > (or send characters to) the serial port. It could very well be the power > problem as Noel suggested. If I were you I would try to get back to the > state where it worked, shortening the Unibus to just include the 4-slot > back plane and the CPU backplane and also remove the RL11 for now. Then > install the RL11 in slot 11 when everything is working. > > /Mattis > > > I removed the core backplanes and returned the DD11-C to the orig config next to the CPU. I re-inserted cards as-was. I am not getting comms from the M7856. I may have shorted the card. So, I will work on that for now. "One step back" thanks b From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon May 23 07:47:32 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 08:47:32 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <84268777-FC1B-4DAE-99E0-7A2A92837165@mac.com> Message-ID: > > > > > > > > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-40/card-layout_moved-plane_Pic2.JPG > > (I removed the grant cards from the core planes per Tony's suggestion.) > > > > You don't have a terminator in the last slot of the bus. There should be a > M930/M9301/M9312 installed there, not a RL11. It is possible to put the > M9312 / M9301 there if you install the five jumpers (In my 11/10 there is a > M9301-YF installed in a regular Unibus slot). With jumpers in the > M9301/M9312 will terminate the BGx and NPG signals as well. Without jumpers > these signals will be unterminated which is not good. > > Be careful to not put it into a MUD slot with the jumpers in, though. > > It is not clear to me if the DL11-W repsonds correctly when you try to > address it or just doesn't output anything. > > Check grant continuity from last slot to the M981. But just to output a > character on the console BG/NPG continuity wouldn't matter. Booting from > the RL11 will not work unless the NPG chain (and BG chains are OK). > > I actually think that the reason for the RL11 not working is that the grant > signals don't have a pull up anywhere in your config. > > /Mattis > > > > Thank you. I can see that have corrections to make. I need to continue my studies of UNIBUS. I have not been strict enough with set up. I will verify that the M9312 is in the last slot and jumpered correctly. Card slot 2 of the backplane was "de-jumpered" and requires a NPR card. The RL02 needs to be in a slot that would otherwise need an NPR card, as I understand things. This slot *I think* is set so you can interchange NPR and RL02 card. I am going to start over from scratch, thanks everyone (Noel saw your post too). Stand by for "take two". Bill From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 23 10:59:24 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 17:59:24 +0200 Subject: Tektronix 4404 servcie manuals needed In-Reply-To: <3495ad8c-bcd5-79f1-2e1a-863ed10b0cf0@bitsavers.org> References: <121320090850.5777.4B24AAD8000475350000169122243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <3495ad8c-bcd5-79f1-2e1a-863ed10b0cf0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: 2016-05-23 2:07 GMT+02:00 Al Kossow : > > > On 5/22/16 4:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > If someone has the scsi storage box, dumping the 6502 floppy eprom would > be really > > helpful (and maybe taking some pictures of the board). > > > > turns out that one was good. the Adaptec 4000 dump was the bad one > It is a 4000, not a 4000A, right? I have the ACB-4000A and can make a dump of it. /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 23 11:34:41 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 09:34:41 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4404 servcie manuals needed In-Reply-To: References: <121320090850.5777.4B24AAD8000475350000169122243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <3495ad8c-bcd5-79f1-2e1a-863ed10b0cf0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0e0cf845-0be0-904b-a402-2cbffedab879@bitsavers.org> On 5/23/16 8:59 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> turns out that one was good. the Adaptec 4000 dump was the bad one >> > > It is a 4000, not a 4000A, right? I have the ACB-4000A and can make a dump > of it. > thanks, but I have dozens of 4000A boards, so I'm not so worried about that assuming Tek didn't use custom firmware. the challenge will be bootstrapping without a tek scsi floppy. Maybe I can borrow Paxton's if he still has it. I'll work on reading the floppies today. They were in boxes and sealed in plastic bags by the seller, so I'll try a couple that I have duplicates of to evaluate their condition. I've also sent a note to the MAME developers to see if they have any interest in simulating the system. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 23 11:38:07 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 09:38:07 -0700 Subject: ISO Force DRAM-8C switch/jumper settings Message-ID: If anyone has any Force manuals squirreled away, I'd like to figure out how to configure one of their 8meg memory boards. Started playing with some VME boards that I had collected over the years, including a huge pile of stuff from Integrated Solutions. Depressing that I had forgotten how much of this stuff I have. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 23 11:38:23 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 12:38:23 -0400 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 6:26 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > FYI, Tim at turntablebasics.com has pretty much every belt and wheel that > PRB and/or their close competitors offer. He has no shipping minimum and a > very low basic shipping rate for light little parts like belts ($1.00 or > so). > > http://www.turntablebasics.com/ Thanks for the pointer, but the closest match (not exact), was still $10 for one belt. -ethan From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 23 11:53:02 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 10:53:02 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 May 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Thanks for the pointer, but the closest match (not exact), was still $10 > for one belt. I've seen folks make belts from heat-shrink tubing. Also, o-ring splicers can be used to create small belts, but it's an expensive solution just to get one belt. I'm not sure either one would create a belt precise enough to work with your drive, though. Where I've seen the latter techniques used is mostly on pully systems for homemade robots and other DIY machines. -Swift From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 23 11:55:43 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 18:55:43 +0200 Subject: Tektronix 4404 servcie manuals needed In-Reply-To: <0e0cf845-0be0-904b-a402-2cbffedab879@bitsavers.org> References: <121320090850.5777.4B24AAD8000475350000169122243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <3495ad8c-bcd5-79f1-2e1a-863ed10b0cf0@bitsavers.org> <0e0cf845-0be0-904b-a402-2cbffedab879@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: 2016-05-23 18:34 GMT+02:00 Al Kossow : > > > On 5/23/16 8:59 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > >> turns out that one was good. the Adaptec 4000 dump was the bad one > >> > > > > It is a 4000, not a 4000A, right? I have the ACB-4000A and can make a > dump > > of it. > > > > thanks, but I have dozens of 4000A boards, so I'm not so worried about that > assuming Tek didn't use custom firmware. > OK. I misunderstood. There were no firmware listed in the adaptec/firmware directory so I thought this was the problem. I also have the ACB-3530, the ACB-4070, some Xebec S1410A and some OMTI bridges if there is a need for a firmware dump. > the challenge will be bootstrapping without a tek scsi floppy. > > Maybe I can borrow Paxton's if he still has it. > > I'll work on reading the floppies today. They were in boxes and sealed in > plastic bags by the seller, so I'll try a couple that I have duplicates of > to evaluate their condition. > > I've also sent a note to the MAME developers to see if they have any > interest > in simulating the system. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 23 11:57:59 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 09:57:59 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4404 servcie manuals needed In-Reply-To: References: <121320090850.5777.4B24AAD8000475350000169122243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <3495ad8c-bcd5-79f1-2e1a-863ed10b0cf0@bitsavers.org> <0e0cf845-0be0-904b-a402-2cbffedab879@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/23/16 9:55 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > OK. I misunderstood. There were no firmware listed in the adaptec/firmware > directory so I thought this was the problem. I also have the ACB-3530, the > ACB-4070, some Xebec S1410A and some OMTI bridges if there is a need for a > firmware dump. > yea, I should start filling that stuff in. It would be good to get your images to start that. From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon May 23 12:32:45 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 12:32:45 -0500 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: @Ethan Huh, well that's no good. If you give the exact dimensions of the original belt, I'll call Tim up and see what he can get. I've known him for almost 30 years and would be happy to order a batch of them at wholesale. They could go to club members and the rest to eBay..? On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Mon, 23 May 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Thanks for the pointer, but the closest match (not exact), was still $10 > > for one belt. > > I've seen folks make belts from heat-shrink tubing. Also, o-ring splicers > can be used to create small belts, but it's an expensive solution just to > get one belt. I'm not sure either one would create a belt precise enough > to work with your drive, though. Where I've seen the latter techniques > used is mostly on pully systems for homemade robots and other DIY > machines. > > -Swift > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 23 12:51:33 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 13:51:33 -0400 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 1:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > @Ethan > > Huh, well that's no good. If you give the exact dimensions of the original > belt, I'll call Tim up and see what he can get. Square belt. 1.2mm cross-section. 80mm dia / 251mm length. > I've known him for almost 30 years and would be happy to order a batch of > them at wholesale. They could go to club members and the rest to eBay..? Wholesale might work. I need 3-4 just to get my own drives working (one in a chicklet-keyboard PET, at least 2-3 external C2N drives - two black PET-era, one (at least) white VIC-20/C-64 era). Wherever they come from US or UK, $10-$12 including shipping per belt is just not gonna happen. I don't need to use tapes on a daily basis, and if I didn't have some old Rabbit-format tapes, I probably wouldn't be doing anything with real tapes other than demonstrate to people how they worked (and why we were so happy to switch to floppies). The old belts aren't melted or snapped (they are 30-35 years old) but they are longer than they used to be and they just spin on the motor pulley. -ethan From mark at markesystems.com Mon May 23 12:55:47 2016 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 10:55:47 -0700 Subject: Most useful 3D Printer I've seen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Why have cool looking replica systems. Edible ones would be so much > better. > http://phys.org/news/2016-05-d-candy-maker-billed-world-york.html This is a bit off-topic, but I can't resist a correction to provide some credit where due. Although billed as such, this is far from being the "first 3D printer for candy". One (of many) counter-examples can be found at http://candyfab.org (from 2006). ~~ Mark Moulding From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 23 14:09:59 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 12:09:59 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4404 servcie manuals needed In-Reply-To: <0e0cf845-0be0-904b-a402-2cbffedab879@bitsavers.org> References: <121320090850.5777.4B24AAD8000475350000169122243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <3495ad8c-bcd5-79f1-2e1a-863ed10b0cf0@bitsavers.org> <0e0cf845-0be0-904b-a402-2cbffedab879@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7c063327-d0ba-de25-d6f0-da765e39cdd5@bitsavers.org> On 5/23/16 9:34 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I'll work on reading the floppies today. They were in boxes and sealed in > plastic bags by the seller, so I'll try a couple that I have duplicates of > to evaluate their condition. > So far everything has been readable. They are double sided 40 track 8 sector 512 bytes I've uploaded 4404 OS and C release V1.5 and V2.0 to bitsavers bits/Tektronix/4404 and am just finishing up V1.1 There are several revs of smalltalk releases with demo systems, lisp and utilities collections for the 4405/6. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon May 23 17:20:17 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 18:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes Message-ID: <20160523222017.393EB18C0F5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Degnan > Card slot 2 of the backplane was "de-jumpered" and requires a NPR card. > The RL02 needs to be in a slot that would otherwise need an NPR card, as I > understand things. Correct. (Although technically it's an RL11 controller card, the RL02 is the drive; but there are other controller cards for the RL02 for other buses, e.g. the RLV11 for the QBUS.) >> those would be MM11-U backplanes, right? > Here is a closeup. I'm away from my machine at the moment, so I don't know if that's what an MM11-U says; I'll check tomorrow. > System came to me as thus, after the CPU, the 3011-cf backplane had the > following: This below all looks OK. > UNIBUS 10 A-B (LEFT SIDE OF UNIBUS) Yeah, that's 'UNIBUS in'. > M7856 10 F-C (RS232 WITH 19.2 OPTION?) And the console board in the bottom part of that slot, good. > G7273 11 C-D An NPG/BG jumper card (but that doesn't mean the NPG jumper is removed from that slot, mind - you have to check the wiring to be positive). You could put the RL11 card in this slot (with the jumper removed). > 7891 12 A-F (64k MEMORY) Yup, sounds good. > M9312 13 A-B (ROM CARD) > 672A 13 D (GRANT CONT.) Yeah, nothing in the SPC part of that slot, and the 9312 in the 'UNIBUS out' part, so it must be acting as a terminator. > I am going to switch to another backplane and start over. To be honest, I'd stick with that one, actually! You have some data to indicate that it is OK (the machine worked as you got it). > From: Mattis Lind > Isn't it just a a DD11-C backplane with power-wring entering from the > back, rather than through small circuit boards? I think the one with the power coming in through paddle-boards is the DD11-A. The DD11-C has 2 MUD slots in the center, not the SPC slots of earlier backplanes. (Not sure what the DD11-B is.) > But all this still doesn't now explain the problem that you cannot > access (or send characters to) the serial port. I got the impression from what he said (that the boot ROM seemed to run OK) that the registers on the console serial board are accessible from the bus OK. If they aren't, the potential causes are quite different from those which would cause the different symptoms of 'card responds, but no characters come out', so we need to nail down which it is before further debugging. Oh, another idea for debugging this: if it's 'registers OK, no characters', try an EIA debugging unit (one of those things with a DB25 male and female, and a bunch of LEDs, that would probably help a lot). > If I were you I would try to get back to the state where it worked, > shortening the Unibus to just include the 4-slot back plane and the CPU > backplane and also remove the RL11 for now. Then install the RL11 in > slot 11 when everything is working. Exactly what I would do! :-) Noel From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon May 23 17:36:07 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 15:36:07 -0700 Subject: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <20160521035823.GD15363@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <20160521011932.GB15363@brevard.conman.org> <201605210249.WAA18561@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160521035823.GD15363@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On May 20, 2016, at 8:58 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > Now, it may sound cavalier of me, but of the three compilers I use at > work (gcc, clang, Solaris Sun Works thingy) I know how to get them to layout > the structs exactly as I need them You can do this in Common Lisp too, though. It sounds more like the way C lets you represent the hardware matches closely with how you think about the hardware. -- Chris From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon May 23 17:31:22 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 18:31:22 -0400 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 1:51 PM Subject: Re: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) > On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 1:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> @Ethan >> >> Huh, well that's no good. If you give the exact dimensions of the original >> belt, I'll call Tim up and see what he can get. > > Square belt. 1.2mm cross-section. 80mm dia / 251mm length. > >> I've known him for almost 30 years and would be happy to order a batch of >> them at wholesale. They could go to club members and the rest to eBay..? > > Wholesale might work. I need 3-4 just to get my own drives working > (one in a chicklet-keyboard PET, at least 2-3 external C2N drives - > two black PET-era, one (at least) white VIC-20/C-64 era). > > Wherever they come from US or UK, $10-$12 including shipping per belt > is just not gonna happen. I don't need to use tapes on a daily basis, > and if I didn't have some old Rabbit-format tapes, I probably wouldn't > be doing anything with real tapes other than demonstrate to people how > they worked (and why we were so happy to switch to floppies). > > The old belts aren't melted or snapped (they are 30-35 years old) but > they are longer than they used to be and they just spin on the motor > pulley. > > -ethan ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Maybe you can find something here (SCY3.5?) $4.50 http://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/catalog/part_overview.asp or here: http://www.russellind.com/EVG/main.htm m From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon May 23 18:33:45 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 18:33:45 -0500 Subject: Most useful 3D Printer I've seen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And here I clicked on it, thinking the TK Labs Sandwich Printer was up & running. On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 12:55 PM, wrote: > Why have cool looking replica systems. Edible ones would be so much >> better. >> http://phys.org/news/2016-05-d-candy-maker-billed-world-york.html >> > > This is a bit off-topic, but I can't resist a correction to provide some > credit where due. Although billed as such, this is far from being the > "first 3D printer for candy". One (of many) counter-examples can be found > at http://candyfab.org (from 2006). > ~~ > Mark Moulding > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Mon May 23 19:45:57 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 21:45:57 -0300 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) References: Message-ID: <0A03CA8080004661AF3C785EBB58D98A@deskjara> > Square belt. 1.2mm cross-section. 80mm dia / 251mm length. > Wholesale might work. I need 3-4 just to get my own drives working > (one in a chicklet-keyboard PET, at least 2-3 external C2N drives - > two black PET-era, one (at least) white VIC-20/C-64 era). > Wherever they come from US or UK, $10-$12 including shipping per belt > is just not gonna happen. I don't need to use tapes on a daily basis, > and if I didn't have some old Rabbit-format tapes, I probably wouldn't > be doing anything with real tapes other than demonstrate to people how > they worked (and why we were so happy to switch to floppies). Ethan, these belts are very common in Brazil. They cost about R$ 2-4 (Us$ 0,50-1,00) each. If you and the group need some, I can buy and put it into an envelope. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 23 20:02:45 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 21:02:45 -0400 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 1:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> >> Square belt. 1.2mm cross-section. 80mm dia / 251mm length. Thanks for the tip, Mike but neither one pans out. > Maybe you can find something here (SCY3.5?) $4.50 > http://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/catalog/part_overview.asp The SCY3.5 is 80mm circumference, not diameter. Much too small. They don't have anything close enough in the right length (33% wider than fits in the groove is as close as they get) > or here: > http://www.russellind.com/EVG/main.htm Nothing even close. Thanks for trying. So far, I'm getting a few hits from the UK and that one $10 belt in the US. :-( -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 23 20:04:37 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 21:04:37 -0400 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: <0A03CA8080004661AF3C785EBB58D98A@deskjara> References: <0A03CA8080004661AF3C785EBB58D98A@deskjara> Message-ID: On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 8:45 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Square belt. 1.2mm cross-section. 80mm dia / 251mm length. > Ethan, these belts are very common in Brazil. They cost about R$ 2-4 (Us$ > 0,50-1,00) each. If you and the group need some, I can buy and put it into > an envelope. Alexandre, Thanks for your offer of assistance. That seems to be a very good way to do it. Write me back off-line and I'm willing to throw money at you for a dozen belts or so and take what I don't need to VCFmw this Fall (if folks on the list don't snap them up first). I'm sure there'll be folks in Chicago who want C2N belts. -ethan From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 23 20:18:37 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 20:18:37 -0500 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: References: <0A03CA8080004661AF3C785EBB58D98A@deskjara> Message-ID: On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Thanks for your offer of assistance. That seems to be a very good way > to do it. Write me back off-line and I'm willing to throw money at > you for a dozen belts or so and take what I don't need to VCFmw this > Fall (if folks on the list don't snap them up first). I'm sure > there'll be folks in Chicago who want C2N belts. For sure, especially with our Commodore-heavy attendance. I know the cassette drive in my PET2001 is shot. For the C2N, I just grab them off the big pile until I find a working one :) j From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 24 01:46:58 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 02:46:58 -0400 Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( In-Reply-To: <57420DAC.80102@flippers.com> References: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> <57420DAC.80102@flippers.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 3:51 PM, John Robertson wrote: > On 05/21/2016 10:53 PM, David Collins wrote: >> >> Martin, I might be able to help you as I think we have a 7596A... >> >> I haven't looked at the plotter itself, but the service manual we have >> shows the following part numbers for the processor PCA >> >> 07595-18039 >> 07595-18040 >> 07595-18041 >> 07595-18042 After wrestling it out of a tight corner and pulling the side panel off and all the machine screws and nuts off the electronics housing, my 7596A had 2 EPROMs, marked (w/Intel logo): 1818-3825 S70137 According to http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25006, they should be 27C512s. They are 28-pin parts with the same coloration and lettering as real Intel 27C512s. >> the EPROMs are labeled 07595-18045 and 07595-18046. The paper labels on mine have the part numbers: 07595-18095 07595-18096 Could you have read '4' instead of '9' perhaps, or perhaps mine are a different revision? My plotter has two DB25F connectors and one IEEE-488 connector. I'm not sure what other features (besides date of manufacture) might lead to different ROM revisions. > If your version has four EPROMs and the later (otherwise identical) machine > only used two then chances are the four earlier EPROMs were simply combined > into two later ones. For example, if the original EPROMs were 2708s then two > of those would fit into a single 2716. The 2716 was easier to program as > well being only a single voltage device. This device is far newer than those parts, but the principle is the same, of course. I should be able to read these out this week and share the contents. -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 24 06:49:11 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 07:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes Message-ID: <20160524114911.3F42C18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Degnan > I removed the core backplanes and returned the DD11-C to the orig > config next to the CPU. I re-inserted cards as-was. I am not getting > comms from the M7856. Ugh. Not good. Does it respond on the UNIBUS? (I.e. if you try to read the registers from the front panel?) > I may have shorted the card. If you somehow plugged it into one of the core backplanes, good chance, alas. They have either -15V or +20V (I think the latter, for the MM11-U) running around on various pins. (Oh, BTW, you probably already know this, but just in case not: those backplanes take specific boards in specific slots; check the manuals/prints for the correct slots.) Do you have a spare M7856 you can swap in to make sure the machine is otherwise functional? If not, let me know, I have a bunch of spare M7800's, I can send you one (known, tested good). Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 24 07:50:38 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 08:50:38 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: <20160524114911.3F42C18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160524114911.3F42C18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: There have been a lot of parallel discussions on my PDP 11/40, I am consolidating them all here: I now have 5 backplanes installed. Here they are, described in order. I walked through this will Paul Anderson last night (thanks Paul!) to verify everything was in the right place and in the right order, in the right power, etc. The +5V is a little weak but I can tweak it, etc. 1. CPU backplane. This is the same backplane I have had running/working for 10 years. There is no M2737 or M787 installed, just a stock CPU card set. No changes have been made. 2. core backplane #1 32k x 16 - 18 Memory backplane 500344C. This backplane has one set of core cards installed in the order they came from another system. These are electrically ok, but not tested/known to pass memory tests. The M8293 is set to 0000 9/11: M981 (1-2) 11: M8293 (3-6) 12: M7259 (1-2) 13: G114 14: H217C 15: G235 The 2nd half of the 1st core backplane is empty. 3. The 2nd core backplane is empty. There are M920's on either end to connect them 4. The next backplane is a DD11B. This is empty other than grant cards in each slot D. An M9202 connects the DD11B to the next backplane 5. The final (5th) backplane is a DD11C In the first slot (closest to the front) GC in slot 4. In the 2nd there is a M7261 RT11 drive controller. This slot requires a NPG G7273 installed if not in use, the M7761 requires this kind of slot. It's not hooked up to anything (RL02). In the 3rd slot is an M9312 with console prom and RL01/02 boot prom. Not a terminator In the 4th slot is a M930 on top with a G7273 in 3/4. The G7273 is required because previously the NPG was removed from wirewrap per requirements for installation of M7762 RL11. This was done before I learned I could have just used slot 2nd, which comes from the factory that way. Bummer but that's what I've got. WHEN I POWER UP - I have full console access, everything "works" and now I have to start diagnosing the core to find at least 16K that I can play with. With the current set of core cards I can toggle in data into addresses, but it's not perfect (line 20000 sticks). Once I am operating with a working set of core I will then turn my attention to the RT11 card, and find a working serial card so I can use a terminal and PDP11GUI, etc. I have spare core cards to draw upon, I had pulled a good set for my 11/05 I could always use those if need be. Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions. Bill From mattislind at gmail.com Tue May 24 08:32:19 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 15:32:19 +0200 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <20160524114911.3F42C18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-05-24 14:50 GMT+02:00 william degnan : > There have been a lot of parallel discussions on my PDP 11/40, I am > consolidating them all here: > > I now have 5 backplanes installed. Here they are, described in order. I > walked through this will Paul Anderson last night (thanks Paul!) to verify > everything was in the right place and in the right order, in the right > power, etc. The +5V is a little weak but I can tweak it, etc. > > 1. CPU backplane. This is the same backplane I have had running/working > for 10 years. There is no M2737 or M787 installed, just a stock CPU card > set. No changes have been made. > > 2. core backplane #1 32k x 16 - 18 Memory backplane 500344C. This > backplane has one set of core cards installed in the order they came from > another system. These are electrically ok, but not tested/known to pass > memory tests. The M8293 is set to 0000 > 9/11: M981 (1-2) > 11: M8293 (3-6) > 12: M7259 (1-2) > 13: G114 > 14: H217C > 15: G235 > > The 2nd half of the 1st core backplane is empty. > > 3. The 2nd core backplane is empty. There are M920's on either end to > connect them > > 4. The next backplane is a DD11B. This is empty other than grant cards in > each slot D. > > An M9202 connects the DD11B to the next backplane > > 5. The final (5th) backplane is a DD11C > > In the first slot (closest to the front) GC in slot 4. > > In the 2nd there is a M7261 RT11 drive controller. This slot requires a > NPG G7273 installed if not in use, the M7761 requires this kind of slot. > It's not hooked up to anything (RL02). > > In the 3rd slot is an M9312 with console prom and RL01/02 boot prom. Not a > terminator > > In the 4th slot is a M930 on top with a G7273 in 3/4. The G7273 is > required because previously the NPG was removed from wirewrap per > requirements for installation of M7762 RL11. This was done before I > learned I could have just used slot 2nd, which comes from the factory that > way. Bummer but that's what I've got. > > WHEN I POWER UP - I have full console access, everything "works" and now I > have to start diagnosing the core to find at least 16K that I can play > with. With the current set of core cards I can toggle in data into > addresses, but it's not perfect (line 20000 sticks). Once I am operating > with a working set of core I will then turn my attention to the RT11 card, > and find a working serial card so I can use a terminal and PDP11GUI, etc. > > I have spare core cards to draw upon, I had pulled a good set for my 11/05 > I could always use those if need be. > > Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions. > > Bill > But the M9312 has bus terminating resistors (unless you actually desoldered those!). Then you have three terminators in your system! One in the M891 at the CPU, one in the M9312 in slot 3 of last DD11, and then a M930 in slot 4 of DD11. If you want the M9312 you should put it with W1-W5 installed in the slot 4 where you have the M930. You should not have both a M930 and M9312 (when you have the M891). /Mattis From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 24 08:37:16 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 09:37:16 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <20160524114911.3F42C18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > > > But the M9312 has bus terminating resistors (unless you actually desoldered > those!). Then you have three terminators in your system! One in the M891 at > the CPU, one in the M9312 in slot 3 of last DD11, and then a M930 in slot 4 > of DD11. > > If you want the M9312 you should put it with W1-W5 installed in the slot 4 > where you have the M930. You should not have both a M930 and M9312 (when > you have the M891). > > /Mattis > After I sent the email to this group, I checked the M9312 and found it was terminated. I was told it was not, I should have checked for myself but I grew suspicious that it should be by default. Now, the M9312 is in the last slot, and I removed the M930. There is nothing except a grant card in the 3rd slot. I fixed the core problem I described in my email. I also am able to store into core and run "chase the lights", I have generally speaking a working 16K system. Thanks again. Next - Get a serial card running and resume efforts to boot RT11 from an RL02 drive. Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From mattislind at gmail.com Tue May 24 09:12:40 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 16:12:40 +0200 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <20160524114911.3F42C18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-05-24 15:37 GMT+02:00 william degnan : > > > > > > > > > > But the M9312 has bus terminating resistors (unless you actually > desoldered > > those!). Then you have three terminators in your system! One in the M891 > at > > the CPU, one in the M9312 in slot 3 of last DD11, and then a M930 in > slot 4 > > of DD11. > > > > If you want the M9312 you should put it with W1-W5 installed in the slot > 4 > > where you have the M930. You should not have both a M930 and M9312 (when > > you have the M891). > > > > /Mattis > > > > > After I sent the email to this group, I checked the M9312 and found it was > terminated. I was told it was not, I should have checked for myself but I > grew suspicious that it should be by default. Now, the M9312 is in the > last slot, and I removed the M930. There is nothing except a grant card in > the 3rd slot. > Good. But what is the status of W1-W5 of the M9312? Installed or not? The usage of AU1 and AV1 differs in Unibus slot versus a Modified Unibus (MUD) slot. The MUD slot uses those two pins for +20V Core power. You don't want to have the jumpers installed when you put the M9312 in a MUD slot (if there is +20V in your system). Then smoke will escape I guess. But If you use it as a terminator in a unibus slot then then you want them to terminate the BGx and NPG lines thus you need to install the jumpers. Now I don't really know if your backplane has MUD wiring or not. I think MUD wiring is a later DEC invention when there were selfcontained unibus core memory modules. Not entire backplanes. But be carful with the jumpers. On the M9302 for example there are big print that tell you something will go bad if you install it in a MUD slot... > > I fixed the core problem I described in my email. I also am able to store > into core and run "chase the lights", I have generally speaking a working > 16K system. > Sounds really good! > Thanks again. > > Next - Get a serial card running and resume efforts to boot RT11 from an > RL02 drive. > What never was clear to me was if you actually could access the serial card or not from the console. I.e. did it respond when addressing it? If it did respond I would check that there were correct power supplied to the 1488 driver. /Mattis > > Bill > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 24 10:03:10 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 11:03:10 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <20160524114911.3F42C18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > > What never was clear to me was if you actually could access the serial card > or not from the console. I.e. did it respond when addressing it? If it did > respond I would check that there were correct power supplied to the 1488 > driver. > > /Mattis > > > The M9312 does yes have the terminators installed. I have not been able to activate the M9312 with the DD11C backplane "behind" the newly-installed core and DD11B backplanes. I don't know if I fried it somehow recently. It was working before. The M9312 is installed on the 4th slot in the DD11C with a NPG card below it. It is also possible that instead I am not communicating with the cards in the back of the bus. Typically I toggle and run from address 165144 from the front panel, then use the console program from a terminal to go from there. Since my recent shenanigans with the backplanes the console program does not appear to load nor run. When I load the address 165144 I see the correct address on the front panel. RUN BUS PROC CONSOLE are all lit. When I enable and start the system the address lights go out except 020 (2nd to last light). The RUN BUS PROC CONSOLE stay lit. When I examine 165144 177570 165146 177570 165150 177570 165152 177570 etc I don't know the status of my M7856 card. There are things I can try but first I believe I should test to see if I am "pinging" to the DD11C at all. I also need to check power output levels and adjust. I am thinking also test the MOS RAM from the DD11C by itself to see what that tells me. I know to address the RAM somewhere other than the 16K space from 000. Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 24 10:09:35 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 11:09:35 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <20160524114911.3F42C18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: The DD11C was modified a while back. I also need to probe the system to confirm what slots need a NPG grant card, make sure everything is documented. I *think* it's slot 4 and 2 that need them, but I should verify this vs. the manual default. From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 24 10:17:45 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:17:45 -0500 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <20160524114911.3F42C18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57447099.4080703@cimmeri.com> On 5/24/2016 8:37 AM, william degnan wrote: > ... I fixed the core problem I > described in my email. ... Bill B, what was the issue with the core, that you fixed it so fast? - J. From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 24 10:36:51 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 11:36:51 -0400 Subject: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes In-Reply-To: <57447099.4080703@cimmeri.com> References: <20160524114911.3F42C18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57447099.4080703@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 11:17 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 5/24/2016 8:37 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> ... I fixed the core problem I described in my email. ... Bill >> > > B, what was the issue with the core, that you fixed it so fast? > > - J. > I guessed that the G114 was bad based on a hunch. I had a spare. b -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 24 10:38:24 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 09:38:24 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? Message-ID: Since I'm an igmo about most machines before the mid-eighties (and still fuzzy even on most of those), I'm curious about all these older machines with front panel buttons and switches. What all did they do? You could actually program them using the front panel right? Some of them bootstrapped this way, too? What kind of "language" was used for that (ie.. what were the basic mechanics)? Did the buttons ever change color? Were you considered a badass if you had switch flipping all memorized down to an art? Were they mainly multi-position toggle switches or on/off buttons? They just seem to be a lot more important on older mainframes and minis. Also, what was the main reason for the blinkenlights? Was it to show system load or specific system states? Just curious. I'm learning a ton from reading these threads on older machines, but there is so much I don't know. -Swift From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 24 10:44:46 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 11:44:46 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Since I'm an igmo about most machines before the mid-eighties (and still > fuzzy even on most of those), I'm curious about all these older machines > with front panel buttons and switches. What all did they do? You could > actually program them using the front panel right? Some of them > bootstrapped this way, too? What kind of "language" was used for that > (ie.. what were the basic mechanics)? Did the buttons ever change color? > Were you considered a badass if you had switch flipping all memorized down > to an art? Were they mainly multi-position toggle switches or on/off > buttons? > > They just seem to be a lot more important on older mainframes and minis. > Also, what was the main reason for the blinkenlights? Was it to show > system load or specific system states? > > Just curious. I'm learning a ton from reading these threads on older > machines, but there is so much I don't know. > > -Swift > > Here's a power point pres I did at VCF-E4, this will get you started. Using Altair 680b front panel in basic terms is covered a few slides in. http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf4/How_to_Session/ -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 24 10:45:21 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 11:45:21 -0400 Subject: Board swapping (was Re: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes) Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 11:36 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 11:17 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> B, what was the issue with the core, that you fixed it so fast? > > I guessed that the G114 was bad based on a hunch. > > I had a spare. Q. How do you know the guy on the side of the highway with a flat tire is a DEC Field Service Engineer? A. He's swapping out all the tires to see which one is flat. (or from net.jokes in 1981... https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/net.jokes/GQ2B6HZIY_4 ) The way I heard it was: How do you tell if a man with a flat tire is a DEC Field Service Rep? Look in the trunk; if he's from DEC F.S. he'll have three spares with little red tags on them and no jack. -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 24 11:09:35 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 11:09:35 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57447CBF.9010401@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 10:38 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Since I'm an igmo about most machines before the mid-eighties (and still > fuzzy even on most of those), I'm curious about all these older machines > with front panel buttons and switches. What all did they do? You could > actually program them using the front panel right? Some of them > bootstrapped this way, too? What kind of "language" was used for that > (ie.. what were the basic mechanics)? Did the buttons ever change color? > Were you considered a badass if you had switch flipping all memorized down > to an art? Were they mainly multi-position toggle switches or on/off > buttons? > > The PDP-5 I did a fair bit of work on needed a bootstrap program loaded in from switches, it had no internal ROM for that. And, whenever a program crashed, it generally wiped the entire contents of memory, so the boot had to be reloaded by hand. We actually wore out the switches. It was about 15-20 12-bit words that needed to be entered. We had DECtape on that machine, so we generally entered to boot loader for that. The LINC was also a 12-bit computer, but it had built-in boot hardware. it was not a boot loader program in a ROM, but when you pressed the load button, it would execute an I/O command from the left switches, and the right switches told it where to put it in memory. So, that was a big advance, a one-button boot. You could use the switches to patch a program you were debugging, look at memory locations to examine temporary data values, etc. A few machines had lighted switches. These would generally be white buttons with lamps behind them. The only one I know of that changed color was the power button ("key" in IBM-speak) on IBM 360's. It lit red while the power-up sequence was in progress, then turned white when all power supplies were up. IBM tape drives and disk drives had lighted buttons to show status, different color buttons and indicators gave them different colors, but they were generally just lit and unlit, but not multi-color. DEC PDP machines generally had a few switches that were multi-position, Such as stop/single-step and load address/examine, otherwise they were all on-off. IBM 360's had a row of switches that were multi-position, mostly for FE diagnostic purposes. The data and address switches were all on/off. Jon From davidk.collins at bigpond.com Tue May 24 09:25:40 2016 From: davidk.collins at bigpond.com (David Collins) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 00:25:40 +1000 Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( In-Reply-To: <20160522194941.GA4588@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> <20160522194941.GA4588@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <005201d1b5c8$26a6b040$73f410c0$@bigpond.com> Here are the binaries for all the EPROMs on processor PCA for my 7596A. The PCA part number is 07595-60100 and is different from the one in the manual which is a 07595-60200 so I assume my PCA is older than the one in the manual. The EPROMs on the PCA are as follows: 17225-18001 U26 17225-18002 U35 17225-18003 U41 17225-18004 U42 07595-18097 U28 07595-18098 U37 Unknown U27 - no part number label Unknown U36 - no part number label Binaries for each chip are attached. All are 27512 EPROMs. I have also included photos of the PCA and the EPROMs in position. Hope that helps. David Collins Curator HP Computer Museum www.hpmuseum.net -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Martin Peters Sent: Monday, 23 May 2016 5:50 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( Hi David! David Collins: > Martin, I might be able to help you as I think we have a 7596A. Great! :) > Are these EPROMs from the processor PCA? I think so. > Are you able to tell me which 'U' > numbers they are in the PC board? No, not now. The plotter is in the shackspace in Stuttgart and I was not there for several weeks and now I found an email saying they want to get rid of it. I already asked for the dumps here one year ago and now it seems to be really urgent. > I haven't looked at the plotter itself, but the service manual we have > shows the following part numbers for the processor PCA > > 07595-18039 > 07595-18040 > 07595-18041 > 07595-18042 I know. As I was told by the guy who took a look inside one year ago, these parts do not exist in the revision we own. But I think, they only put the firmware in two EPROMs at HP in a newer revision of the board. And if not "only", I think the dumps would be helpful anyway. It would be great if you could do a dump for me :-) Many thanks, Martin -- Martin Peters martin at shackspace.de From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 24 11:17:27 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:17:27 -0400 Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( In-Reply-To: <005201d1b5c8$26a6b040$73f410c0$@bigpond.com> References: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> <20160522194941.GA4588@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <005201d1b5c8$26a6b040$73f410c0$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 10:25 AM, David Collins wrote: > Here are the binaries for all the EPROMs on processor PCA for my 7596A. The > PCA part number is 07595-60100 and is different from the one in the manual > which is a 07595-60200 so I assume my PCA is older than the one in the > manual. I did not have an 8mm socket wrench with me when I visited my 7596A so I wasn't able to entirely remove the cover. I did slip the camera in under the lower edge and did extract U28 and U37 from mine for dumping... > The EPROMs on the PCA are as follows: > > 17225-18001 U26 > 17225-18002 U35 > 17225-18003 U41 > 17225-18004 U42 These were empty on my plotter, best I could tell. > 07595-18097 U28 > 07595-18098 U37 I found these in those sockets: 07595-18095 U28 07595-18096 U37 > Unknown U27 - no part number label > Unknown U36 - no part number label These sockets are definitely empty on my plotter. > Binaries for each chip are attached. All are 27512 EPROMs. This list doesn't support attachments, so most of us didn't get them. I'm happy to send along my copies of 07595-18095 / 07595-18096 when I get them read out. -ethan From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue May 24 11:20:03 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:20:03 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08e301d1b5d8$21090e20$631b2a60$@sudbrink@verizon.net> I have it on good authority that Dazzlemation, recreated source code here: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/dazzler.html was initially written on paper and then toggled in on the front panel of an Altair. Whether that is entirely true, I'm not sure, but evidence in the code clearly shows that it was debugged via the front panel. Also, once the program was running, its behavior (speed) was controlled with the front panel switches. Bill S. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue May 24 11:23:31 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 09:23:31 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 8:38 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Since I'm an igmo about most machines before the mid-eighties (and still > fuzzy even on most of those), I'm curious about all these older machines > with front panel buttons and switches. What all did they do? You could > actually program them using the front panel right? Some of them > bootstrapped this way, too? What kind of "language" was used for that > (ie.. what were the basic mechanics)? Did the buttons ever change color? > Were you considered a badass if you had switch flipping all memorized down > to an art? Were they mainly multi-position toggle switches or on/off > buttons? > > They just seem to be a lot more important on older mainframes and minis. > Also, what was the main reason for the blinkenlights? Was it to show > system load or specific system states? > > Just curious. I'm learning a ton from reading these threads on older > machines, but there is so much I don't know. > > "Older machines" covers a lot of ground..... In my experience (PDP-11, PDP-8 PDP-15, Nova, IBM 709, DPS8 and others), the panel switches and lights were for primarily for bootstrapping and debugging. Typically, there was a set of data switches (0/1 toggles) that could be set to an address or data value, and a set of command switches (momentary contact) that copied the data switches to some data register or memory. For the earlier or cheaper systems, there was no 'bootstrap ROM'; so a small program that was capable of reading the first record of a paper or magnetic tape into memory and running it was needed. This program was documented in ''machine language' -- a list of binary values that needed to be placed in specific memory locations. Hypothetical example (in octal): Starting at location 0: 1456 3342 3300 3040 0070 (expressed in octal). To bootstrap the machine, you loaded a paper tape containing the program you wanted to run in the reader. Next, you hit the 'RESET' on the console; among other things, that would set the console 'next address' register and the instruction counter to 0. You then set the data switches to 001100101110 (1456 in binary), and press 'DEPOSIT'. Thus would copy the data switches to memory at the location in the 'next address' register and increment the register. You then repeated this for each data value -- toggle in the value, press deposit. When done, you pressed 'START'. The RESET had set the instruction counter to 0, so the CPU would start executing code at location 0, which contains the 1456 instruction, and your bootstrap is off and running. It reads some number of characters from the paper tape into memory, and then starts executing them. Those characters will be a more complex boot strap loader that will read them rest of the tape into memory and run it. Later or more expensive options of these machines would have a bootstrap loader in ROM. Typically, you would toggle in the the address of the ROM into the instruction counter and then boot device ID into the data toggles and then start the CPU. For the DPS8 there was a bootstrap ROM, a set of switches specifying card reader or tape boot, the device ID and a 'BOOT' button. The data switches would be examined by the operating system during boot to enable debugging (pause at certain points during boot, eg). The 709 had these massively over-engineered rocker switches, reminiscent of circuit breakers, and a reset switch which activated a electric motor in the console which physically set the switches back to 0. The PDP-15 had a 'CPU speed' knob. turning it would continuously vary the CPU clock from 1Hz to full speed. The blinking lights typically would have at least the instruction counter and the accumulator. Other registers might be displayed, as well as the instruction being executed, operand address and value, condition code bits, IO activity, interrupt status, and much more. Watching the instruction counter could reveal the CPU to stuck in a short loop; or, if halted, what instruction it was at when it halted. The console switches and lights could be used to examine memory locations as part of debugging. If the program was stuck in a loop, the console switches could be used to halt the CPU and examine where in the program it was looping and the values of the variables that controlled the loop. Some of the mainframes had hundreds and hundreds of lights, detailing the internal state of the machine; mostly of interest to field engineers. -- Charles From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 24 11:25:36 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:25:36 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2016, william degnan wrote: > Here's a power point pres I did at VCF-E4, this will get you started. > Using Altair 680b front panel in basic terms is covered a few slides in. > http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf4/How_to_Session/ There are some nice clean photos in that presentation. So, it was binary with some hexadecimal addressing. I like the slide entitled "How to test Machine Language Using a Program Listing Using Toggle Switches". That's pretty hard core. I'm surprised they didn't at least use component displays with LEDs to show the values rather than reading it straight off some blinkenlights. Maybe those weren't around yet or were too expensive. -Swift From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 24 11:25:41 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 09:25:41 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-24, at 8:38 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Since I'm an igmo about most machines before the mid-eighties (and still > fuzzy even on most of those), I'm curious about all these older machines > with front panel buttons and switches. What all did they do? Primary front-panel operations were: 1 - examine and load memory locations 2 - examine and load registers, including the instruction counter 3 - start and stop processor execution (run state) Thus with (2) you can start execution where-ever you want in memory Also, depending on the machine: 4 - single-step the processor, sometimes per instruction, sometimes per clock cycle or instruction phase 5 - twiddle I/O devices > You could > actually program them using the front panel right? Yes > Some of them > bootstrapped this way, too? Yes. In the core days, the common thing to do would be to use the front panel to 'toggle in' the first bootstrap loader of some few dozen instructions/words. Core being non-volatile, that bootstrap program would continue to reside there across power-down/up so you didn't have to re-toggle at every power-up. Just set the execution-start address with the toggles, and run. > What kind of "language" was used for that > (ie.. what were the basic mechanics)? Raw machine code. Typically expressed in octal or hex depending on the machine instruction layout or policy, and translated to binary by the operator as you toggle in. > Did the buttons ever change color? > Were you considered a badass if you had switch flipping all memorized down > to an art? > Were they mainly multi-position toggle switches or on/off > buttons? Most common was two-position (up-down) toggles. Some machines had rotary switches for such as register-display selection Some used momentary-push-buttons for 1-0 bit cycling. > They just seem to be a lot more important on older mainframes and minis. > Also, what was the main reason for the blinkenlights? Was it to show > system load or specific system states? Primary intentions were: 1 - initial bootstrap as mentioned above 2 - hardware diagnosis and servicing Earlier and larger machines might have the state of every or near-every flip-flop in the machine brought out to an indicator, so you could see the entire processor state on the front panel. You could then use that to trace logic faults in the machine. Simple example: if the carry flip-flop lamp isn't turning on after single-stepping through an ADD instruction with registers loaded with operands which should result in carry . . . 3 - (less common) program diagnosis , i.e. used as an instruction-level software debugger, if one had monopoly machine access. The improved reliablity of LSI logic over discrete and SSI, and the creation of ROM chips of reasonable capacity (to hold the bootstrap or a monitor), would bring about the demise of the blinkenlight front panel. Note that only a couple of the first microcomputers had blinkenlight front panels, and they were pretty much gone from minis and mainframes by the late-70s. > Just curious. I'm learning a ton from reading these threads on older > machines, but there is so much I don't know. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 24 11:32:19 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:32:19 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <57447CBF.9010401@pico-systems.com> References: <57447CBF.9010401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2016, Jon Elson wrote: > The PDP-5 I did a fair bit of work on needed a bootstrap program loaded > in from switches, it had no internal ROM for that. How long did it usually take to do it? > And, whenever a program crashed, it generally wiped the entire contents > of memory, so the boot had to be reloaded by hand. Uhh, ouch! That'll learn ya! You'd better be a careful coder, then I guess. Sheesh. > So, that was a big advance, a one-button boot. Man, it seems so elementary now. Everything had to be invented sometime, I suppose. > You could use the switches to patch a program you were debugging, look > at memory locations to examine temporary data values, etc. It seems like that'd make working with computers a lot more "intentional" if you know what I mean. > A few machines had lighted switches. These would generally be white > buttons with lamps behind them. Hmm, so not as cool as 60's and 70's TV and movies seemed to suggest. Still at least it did happen. :-) > The only one I know of that changed color was the power button ("key" in > IBM-speak) on IBM 360's. Heh, my grandmother was a Cobol programmer on IBM 360s for Western National Gas (now Diamond Shamrock). She had mixed feelings about them, but she said they had a decent development environment vis-a-vis some of the competition at the time. > IBM tape drives and disk drives had lighted buttons to show status, > different color buttons and indicators gave them different colors, but > they were generally just lit and unlit, but not multi-color. Hmm, yeah, I seem to remember some similar style lights on old TEAC reel-to-reel audio gear from that era, too. > DEC PDP machines generally had a few switches that were multi-position, > Such as stop/single-step and load address/examine, otherwise they were > all on-off. Those multi-position switches are really cool. They remind me more of avionics style controls (which always seem to be the nicest physical gear in terms of build quality). -Swift From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 24 11:34:07 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:34:07 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > The improved reliablity of LSI logic over discrete and SSI, and the creation of ROM chips of reasonable capacity (to hold the bootstrap or a monitor), would bring about the demise of the blinkenlight front panel. > Note that only a couple of the first microcomputers had blinkenlight front panels, and they were pretty much gone from minis and mainframes by the late-70s. The demise was really about money. All those lights, switches, wiring, metalwork, etc. for a full panel was EXPENSIVE. -- Will From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue May 24 11:42:19 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 09:42:19 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, william degnan wrote: > > Here's a power point pres I did at VCF-E4, this will get you started. > > Using Altair 680b front panel in basic terms is covered a few slides in. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf4/How_to_Session/ > > There are some nice clean photos in that presentation. So, it was binary > with some hexadecimal addressing. I like the slide entitled "How to test > Machine Language Using a Program Listing Using Toggle Switches". That's > pretty hard core. I'm surprised they didn't at least use component > displays with LEDs to show the values rather than reading it straight off > some blinkenlights. Maybe those weren't around yet or were too expensive. > > -Swift > > Honeywell 6180 display panels: http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/03/honeywell-6180-system-maintenance-panel.html -- Charles From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 24 11:44:29 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:44:29 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: > "Older machines" covers a lot of ground..... Sorry, I should have said "machines from the 50's - 70's which used buttons, toggles, rockers or other switches on the front panel" > Typically, there was a set of data switches (0/1 toggles) that could be > set to an address or data value, and a set of command switches > (momentary contact) that copied the data switches to some data register > or memory. Did some of the machines have blinkenlights to show you what you were doing so you could see the values you were inputting? Judging from how I play guitar, I'd probably miskey and have to start all over etc... > For the earlier or cheaper systems, there was no 'bootstrap ROM'; so a > small program that was capable of reading the first record of a paper or > magnetic tape into memory and running it was needed. Was that because of cost, no availability (ie.. not invented yet), or what? Why didn't they have a boot ROM, BIOS, etc.. ? > This program was documented in ''machine language' -- a list of binary > values that needed to be placed in specific memory locations. > Hypothetical example (in octal): Ah, thanks for the example. Between this and the PPT someone posted earlier, I think I "get it" now. > It reads some number of characters from the paper tape into memory, and > then starts executing them. Those characters will be a more complex boot > strap loader that will read them rest of the tape into memory and run > it. Well, paper tape sure beats having to flip all those switches, it sounds like. > The data switches would be examined by the operating system during boot > to enable debugging (pause at certain points during boot, eg). I wish OS's still had something like this sometimes. Using a debugger over serial, there are times when I'd like to step through code or stop the whole kit-and-kaboodle. However, there are so many timers running in OS's these days a lot of the time that sort of thing causes major pain, especially with certain problematic drivers. > The 709 had these massively over-engineered rocker switches, reminiscent > of circuit breakers, and a reset switch which activated a electric motor > in the console which physically set the switches back to 0. Heh, that sounds cool. Could you hear the motor running after hitting the switch to activate it? > The PDP-15 had a 'CPU speed' knob. turning it would continuously vary the > CPU clock from 1Hz to full speed. Ohhh, neato. I wish that was more common, too. What fun! I need a machine with an analog dial for the clock speed and vue meters for RAM and CPU capacity :-) > The blinking lights typically would have at least the instruction > counter and the accumulator. Other registers might be displayed, as well > as the instruction being executed, operand address and value, condition > code bits, IO activity, interrupt status, and much more. That makes good sense, really. It doesn't seem so mysterious when you describe it, now. > Watching the instruction counter could reveal the CPU to stuck in a > short loop; or, if halted, what instruction it was at when it halted. Hmm, again, that wouldn't be so bad to have even today. > Some of the mainframes had hundreds and hundreds of lights, detailing > the internal state of the machine; mostly of interest to field > engineers. It probably still impressed the suits when they walked the data center. I've done data center tours with row after row of HP or Dell x86 servers and it's not much to look at. -Swift From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue May 24 11:48:24 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:48:24 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08ea01d1b5dc$16f9d780$44ed8680$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Swift Griggs wrote: > Machine Language Using a Program Listing Using Toggle Switches". That's > pretty hard core. I'm surprised they didn't at least use component > displays with LEDs to show the values rather than reading it straight > off some blinkenlights. It's much easier to tell if you have a stuck bit (data or address) with simple LEDs. This was (and is) a real possibility in old machines. Trying to watch for patterns of HEX or OCT digits to provide the same info would be really tough. Bill S. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 24 11:50:35 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 11:50:35 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <57447CBF.9010401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5744865B.5000605@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 11:32 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Jon Elson wrote: >> The PDP-5 I did a fair bit of work on needed a bootstrap program loaded >> in from switches, it had no internal ROM for that. > How long did it usually take to do it? We had contests, I think some people got under 15 seconds. All from memory, of course! > >> And, whenever a program crashed, it generally wiped the entire contents >> of memory, so the boot had to be reloaded by hand. > Uhh, ouch! That'll learn ya! You'd better be a careful coder, then I > guess. Sheesh. This could happen on any computer, but it seemed the PDP-5 (and PDP-8, same instruction set) were most likely to do this. Actually, the PDP-5 had the instruction counter as location zero of memory, so it may have been more prone to it. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 24 11:51:41 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 11:51:41 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 11:34 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The improved reliablity of LSI logic over discrete and SSI, and the creation of ROM chips of reasonable capacity (to hold the bootstrap or a monitor), would bring about the demise of the blinkenlight front panel. >> Note that only a couple of the first microcomputers had blinkenlight front panels, and they were pretty much gone from minis and mainframes by the late-70s. > The early PDP-11s had a diode matrix ROM for the boot memory. You could change the boot code with a wire cutter and soldering iron. Jon From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue May 24 11:53:02 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:53:02 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? References: Message-ID: <08eb01d1b5dc$bc7100d0$35530270$@sudbrink@verizon.net> I wrote: > Swift Griggs wrote: > > Machine Language Using a Program Listing Using Toggle Switches". > > That's pretty hard core. I'm surprised they didn't at least use > > component displays with LEDs to show the values rather than > > reading it straight off some blinkenlights. > > It's much easier to tell if you have a stuck bit > (data or address) with simple LEDs. This was (and is) > a real possibility in old machines. Trying to watch > for patterns of HEX or OCT digits to provide the same > info would be really tough. By the way, that's why most front panel implementations have a "light check" function. Bill S. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 24 11:54:17 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:54:17 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: > Honeywell 6180 display panels: > http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/03/honeywell-6180-system-maintenance-panel.html Holy rocker switch, Batman! Is that all for one machine? That looks like a man-machine interface to run a nuclear power plant or something. FOUR panels. The black panel looks uber-cool. That definitely looks like something from a 60's or 70's James bond film. There needs to be a villain about ready to launch a missile standing next to one. Oh and here is a replica of an Apollo launch computer with a component LED display like I was mentioning: http://i.imgur.com/bbXZVcx.jpg ... probably too expensive to embed in a computer system, but still hard to beat for geek aesthetics. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 24 11:56:54 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:56:54 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2016, Jon Elson wrote: > The early PDP-11s had a diode matrix ROM for the boot memory. You could > change the boot code with a wire cutter and soldering iron. Is that similar to "wire wrap" ? I remember my grandmother talking about having to snip wires connected to diodes. I think this was in the 50's but it might have been the 60's, too. She mentioned something like that. -Swift From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 24 11:57:37 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 16:57:37 +0000 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Most early machines had core memory. If they hadn't crashed crashed it, the bootstrap was still in memory. I crash my core regularly. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Swift Griggs Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 9:54:17 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Front panel switches - what did they do? On Tue, 24 May 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: > Honeywell 6180 display panels: > http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/03/honeywell-6180-system-maintenance-panel.html Holy rocker switch, Batman! Is that all for one machine? That looks like a man-machine interface to run a nuclear power plant or something. FOUR panels. The black panel looks uber-cool. That definitely looks like something from a 60's or 70's James bond film. There needs to be a villain about ready to launch a missile standing next to one. Oh and here is a replica of an Apollo launch computer with a component LED display like I was mentioning: http://i.imgur.com/bbXZVcx.jpg ... probably too expensive to embed in a computer system, but still hard to beat for geek aesthetics. -Swift From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue May 24 12:00:05 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:00:05 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 9:44 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > It probably still impressed the suits when they walked the data center. > I've done data center tours with row after row of HP or Dell x86 servers > and it's not much to look at. > > Definitely. Several OSes would show distinctive 'idle' patterns on the lights, this provided a quick visual cue about system load for the big multi-user systems. As I understand it, the Transputer (an early multicpu system designed to parallel computation had a simple buf effective display -- an LED for for each CPU indicatiing if the CPU was working or idle, this told you at a glance if you parallelization algortihim was effective. -- Charles From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 24 12:00:20 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:00:20 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <8ac73534-0c0c-802f-d83f-f2f7884e3578@bitsavers.org> On 5/24/16 9:34 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > The demise was really about money. All those lights, switches, wiring, > metalwork, etc. for a full panel was EXPENSIVE. > And the functionality could be replaced by scan chains connected to a small computer so you still had all the visibility w/o the expense. Amdahl mainframes and the Xerox Dorado come to mind. When hardware was BIG, it was easier just to put major controller registers on panels above the logic, ala DEC peripheral controllers, or on maintenance panels that the customers would never see (Burroughs, Univac) Something else that control panels could do is single step or single cycle a CPU. A few PDP's had a knob that would let you vary the processor clock rate (from memory, the PDP-6, 7, 10 and 12) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue May 24 12:06:31 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 13:06:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5744865B.5000605@pico-systems.com> References: <57447CBF.9010401@pico-systems.com> <5744865B.5000605@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <201605241706.NAA12166@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> The PDP-5 I did a fair bit of work on needed a bootstrap program >>> loaded in from switches, it had no internal ROM for that. >> How long did it usually take to do it? > We had contests, I think some people got under 15 seconds. > All from memory, of course! I don't think I ever used a PDP-5, but I did, back in the late '70s, use some HP rackmount machine with lighted buttons for front-panel switches and a manually-entered bootstrap. I got good at entering its bootstrap, to the point where the limiting factor was speed of moving my fingers between switches; once the code was memorized, dexterity was the limiting factor for speed. (I don't remember how long the bootstrap was; I think it was something like six or eight instructions. Probably something like "set DMA address and source sector in disk controller, tell disk controller to read, wait for completion, jump to loaded code". Probably only some five or ten seconds to enter.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue May 24 12:07:14 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:07:14 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 9:34 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > The improved reliablity of LSI logic over discrete and SSI, and the > creation of ROM chips of reasonable capacity (to hold the bootstrap or a > monitor), would bring about the demise of the blinkenlight front panel. > > Note that only a couple of the first microcomputers had blinkenlight > front panels, and they were pretty much gone from minis and mainframes by > the late-70s. > > The demise was really about money. All those lights, switches, wiring, > metalwork, etc. for a full panel was EXPENSIVE. > > Yep. Later model models of the Honeywell 6180 replaced all of those display panels with a minicomputer that generated video terminal displays of the data. -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 24 12:10:43 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:10:43 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57448B13.9070804@sydex.com> The switches on, say, an IBM 1401 and 1620 were negligible. The lights could tell a lot about the state of the system, however. The CDC 6000-7000-STAR, etc. had no switches or lights. There was a "deadstart panel" with a matrix of toggle switches whose contents were initially used to start the system. The operator's console was used for interaction. In fact, if one's hearing is blocked out, it's pretty much impossible to tell if a 6600 is powered on and "hung" or just powered off. The display had to be refreshed every few milliseconds or it went blank. The STAR and 7000 used "MCUs"--basically a minicomputer with its own memory and display that allowed one to manipulate all sorts of interesting things. The STAR MCU had its own drum, which was initially loaded from paper tape. Memory-and-address switches are not to be confused with "sense switches". An interesting early feature of FORTRAN was the ability to interrogate the status of (usually 4) hardware or software switches. There was a less-used feature of "sense lights". When requesting that the operator mount a particular tape, for example, the message to the operator was something like "PLS MOUNT TAPE xxxx UNIT yyy 1 UP AND GO". FORTRAN II had the "IF SENSE SWITCH..." statement; Some FORTRAN IV versions used library routines to do the same thing; e.g. SSWITCH, SLITET). --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 24 12:17:34 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 13:17:34 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8B7185A7-BC72-41C7-87BD-FEFA970234C3@comcast.net> A couple of observations. Taking the PDP-11 as a fairly typical example, the switches are "data" and "address". While running, the data switches were visible to the software, and could do something if you wanted to (typically this wasn't done). When stopped, you could set an address in the address switches, and examine memory at that address (showing it in the lights) or change it (with the data supplied by the data switches). You could also start at the address in the address switches. Also, while running, the lights would display some bit of system state. On a fair number of PDP-11s, you could select what to display. When running RT-11 you would typically ask for the "display register", a register written by software that appears in the lights and contains the idle pattern. The pattern would slow down as the system got busy. On other operating systems, say RSTS/E, you'd ask for "data paths" which was some internal state except during a WAIT instruction, when it would show the contents of R0. That was where RSTS would put its idle lights pattern. The result is that you'd see the clear pattern on a nearly idle machine, a blur if the machine is busy, or a frozen pattern if the machine was stuck in an infinite loop. With experience, you could gauge what sort of thing a system was doing by its lights. This is why in RSTS/E development we had Field Service remove the "remote diagnostics" (no lights) consoles and put the lights ones back in. Very early PDP-11 systems needed to have some bootstrap toggled in, but by the time I saw my first one (1973) diode based boot cards (16 words, just enough for early disk drives) had appeared. Other machines might be different. Some had vast quantities of lights to show a lot of internal state at the same time; I remember Burroughs mainframes and some IBM/360 models (360/65?) in particular. A few had none at all: the CDC 6000 mainframes had a CRT display under program control, but no lights whatsoever. It did have a boot loader, in the form of a 12 by 12 array of toggle switches -- a 12 word changeable ROM. :-) The first machine I got my hands on, a Philips PR8000 -- 24 bit minicomputer -- had 8 digit light displays -- 8 octal digits for the 24 bits of data. And the data entry was with 8 sets of buttons, one set for each octal digit. The buttons were marked 4/2/1 and arranged so you could enter a digit with one finger press: | 2 | | 4 | 1 | so pressing in the middle would get you 7, bottom center a 5, etc. The "boot ROM" was mentioned, which applies to various DEC machines. On some other machines, the boot operation might not be a small program but a specialized hardware action instead. That applies to the CDC mainframes, for example, as well as machines like the IBM 1620. There a boot operation ("deadstart", "initial program load") might put the CPU and I/O devices in some specific state and then start a data transfer from some selected device to some fixed memory location. paul From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 24 12:17:42 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:17:42 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <746DC5AB-D9A4-445B-B073-E183F3999651@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-24, at 9:54 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: >> Honeywell 6180 display panels: >> http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/03/honeywell-6180-system-maintenance-panel.html > > Holy rocker switch, Batman! Is that all for one machine? That looks like a > man-machine interface to run a nuclear power plant or something. FOUR > panels. The black panel looks uber-cool. That definitely looks like > something from a 60's or 70's James bond film. There needs to be a villain > about ready to launch a missile standing next to one. I think one of the most impressive front panels is that of the IBM 360/91: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/36091.html From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue May 24 12:18:45 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:18:45 -0300 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57448CF5.5060207@gmail.com> On 2016-05-24 1:54 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: >> Honeywell 6180 display panels: >> http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/03/honeywell-6180-system-maintenance-panel.html > Holy rocker switch, Batman! Is that all for one machine? That looks like a > man-machine interface to run a nuclear power plant or something. FOUR > panels. The black panel looks uber-cool. That definitely looks like > something from a 60's or 70's James bond film. There needs to be a villain > about ready to launch a missile standing next to one. > > Oh and here is a replica of an Apollo launch computer with a component LED > display like I was mentioning: > > http://i.imgur.com/bbXZVcx.jpg > > ... probably too expensive to embed in a computer system, but still hard > to beat for geek aesthetics. > > -Swift > > The most impressive one I ever saw was when I was in technician school we had a tour of the underground in North Bay Ont. where we saw what was probably the last running AN/FSQ-7, the operator panel was very impressive. Some of the early 370 systems that still had blinkenlights only had one or two rows and rotary switchs selected what you where viewing. Attached to the switch there was a cylinder behind the panel that showed a legend of what the lights meant for the selected location. The also had hex dials on the panel for data input. Paul. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 24 12:22:00 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:22:00 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2016-May-24, at 9:34 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The improved reliablity of LSI logic over discrete and SSI, and the creation of ROM chips of reasonable capacity (to hold the bootstrap or a monitor), would bring about the demise of the blinkenlight front panel. >> Note that only a couple of the first microcomputers had blinkenlight front panels, and they were pretty much gone from minis and mainframes by the late-70s. > > The demise was really about money. All those lights, switches, wiring, > metalwork, etc. for a full panel was EXPENSIVE. Well, everything is about money, so to speak. Reducing costs was one motivation for eliminating the front panel, but not what made it practical or feasible to do so. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue May 24 12:25:04 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:25:04 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Jon Elson wrote: > > The early PDP-11s had a diode matrix ROM for the boot memory. You could > > change the boot code with a wire cutter and soldering iron. > > Is that similar to "wire wrap" ? I remember my grandmother talking about > having to snip wires connected to diodes. I think this was in the 50's but > it might have been the 60's, too. She mentioned something like that. > > Wirewrap is solderless. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Wire_Wrapping.jpg/220px-Wire_Wrapping.jpg Very good for prototyping, automated wirewrapping was for some production. -- Charles From cramcram at gmail.com Tue May 24 12:13:11 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:13:11 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Those aren't LED's on the Apollo display. They are EL's (Electro Luminescent displays). Each segment of each digit was controlled by a relay. They astronauts eventually got use to the tinkling sound of the relays. In fact the entire console panel of the command module was a giant EL, covered mostly in gray paint except where switch legends were needed. ELs were highly reliable and dim-able. Unfortunately they required a relatively high voltage (22 volts or so) which is why relays were needed to control the display segments on the computer readouts. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the control panel of the IBM 360/91: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360#/media/File:360-91-panel.jpg Marc On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: > > Honeywell 6180 display panels: > > > http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/03/honeywell-6180-system-maintenance-panel.html > > Holy rocker switch, Batman! Is that all for one machine? That looks like a > man-machine interface to run a nuclear power plant or something. FOUR > panels. The black panel looks uber-cool. That definitely looks like > something from a 60's or 70's James bond film. There needs to be a villain > about ready to launch a missile standing next to one. > > Oh and here is a replica of an Apollo launch computer with a component LED > display like I was mentioning: > > http://i.imgur.com/bbXZVcx.jpg > > ... probably too expensive to embed in a computer system, but still hard > to beat for geek aesthetics. > > -Swift > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 24 12:44:06 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 10:44:06 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> On 05/24/2016 10:25 AM, Charles Anthony wrote: > Very good for prototyping, automated wirewrapping was for some > production. There was also automated "stapled wire". I forget the name for the process. I still prototype projects where I'm not entirely sure of what I'm after using wirewrap. It's one-off, unlike PCB, but very handy. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 24 13:00:55 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 11:00:55 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 5/24/2016 9:56 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Jon Elson wrote: >> The early PDP-11s had a diode matrix ROM for the boot memory. You could >> change the boot code with a wire cutter and soldering iron. > Is that similar to "wire wrap" ? I remember my grandmother talking about > having to snip wires connected to diodes. I think this was in the 50's but > it might have been the 60's, too. She mentioned something like that. Diode boards were one form of read only storage in systems. Another was the IBM and other's capacitance system. The diode boards could be done by populating a board with all possible diodes, then clipping them, but the cost of diodes in early days made it such that they typically soldered the pins into boards to create the ROM arrays. This is a system which used it, the Microdata 800. This manual describes the assembler, and the assembler addressed the diode map as well as the parts map. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/microdata/800/69-1-0800-002_AP800_Assembly_Pgm_Jul69.pdf thanks Jim > -Swift > > From spc at conman.org Tue May 24 13:07:03 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:07:03 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160524180703.GA26326@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, william degnan wrote: > > Here's a power point pres I did at VCF-E4, this will get you started. > > Using Altair 680b front panel in basic terms is covered a few slides in. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf4/How_to_Session/ > > There are some nice clean photos in that presentation. So, it was binary > with some hexadecimal addressing. I like the slide entitled "How to test > Machine Language Using a Program Listing Using Toggle Switches". That's > pretty hard core. I'm surprised they didn't at least use component > displays with LEDs to show the values rather than reading it straight off > some blinkenlights. Maybe those weren't around yet or were too expensive. Work with binary, octal and/or hexadecimal enough, and you'll learn how to sight read binary patterns. The conversion is pretty simple: OCTAL HEX - - - 0 - - - - 0 - - * 1 - - - * 1 - * - 2 - - * - 2 - * * 3 - - * * 3 * - - 4 - * - - 4 * - * 5 - * - * 5 * * - 6 - * * - 6 * * * 7 - * * * 7 * - - - 8 * - - * 9 * - * - A (or 10) * - * * B ( 11) * * - - C ( 12) * * - * D ( 13) * * * - E ( 14) * * * * F ( 15) So a byte value of * - - * - * * - is hexadecimal 96. On Octal, it wold be 226. -spc (I'll leave he decimal value to the reader) From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 24 13:07:51 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 11:07:51 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> On 05/24/2016 11:00 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > Diode boards were one form of read only storage in systems. Another > was the IBM and other's capacitance system. ...and the "transformer" ROS used on the 360/40 (and others). --Chuck From spc at conman.org Tue May 24 13:11:26 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:11:26 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160524181126.GB26326@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: > > The data switches would be examined by the operating system during boot > > to enable debugging (pause at certain points during boot, eg). > > I wish OS's still had something like this sometimes. Using a debugger over > serial, there are times when I'd like to step through code or stop the > whole kit-and-kaboodle. However, there are so many timers running in OS's > these days a lot of the time that sort of thing causes major pain, > especially with certain problematic drivers. The Amiga has a minimal debugger embedded in the ROM that ran over the serial port (9600 8n1). It would automatically become active when a Guru Meditation (similar to a Unix kernel panic, or the Mac bomb, or the Windows Blue Screen of Death) but you could get to it at other times as well (I played around with it a bit). The debugger is *very* minimal (hex dumps of memory and registers, you could modify memory and registers, resume, etc). > > Some of the mainframes had hundreds and hundreds of lights, detailing > > the internal state of the machine; mostly of interest to field > > engineers. > > It probably still impressed the suits when they walked the data center. > I've done data center tours with row after row of HP or Dell x86 servers > and it's not much to look at. The original Connection Machine had one LED per CPU (max 65,536). You could get some pretty impressive visuals out of that one. -spc From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 24 13:22:22 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 11:22:22 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5/24/16 10:44 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There was also automated "stapled wire". I forget the name for the process. > stitch wire you spot weld to a socket post From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 24 13:25:52 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:25:52 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On May 24, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 05/24/2016 11:00 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > >> Diode boards were one form of read only storage in systems. Another >> was the IBM and other's capacitance system. > > ...and the "transformer" ROS used on the 360/40 (and others). You mean "Core rope memory"? I just fixed the Wikipedia article to correct the history for that technology. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 24 13:39:38 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:39:38 -0600 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On May 24, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> ...and the "transformer" ROS used on the 360/40 (and others). > You mean "Core rope memory"? IBM's TROS and Core Rope Memory use the same principle, but the physical construction is significantly different. Core rope memory was very labor-intensive to manufacture, while TROS was not. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 24 13:54:16 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:54:16 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <746DC5AB-D9A4-445B-B073-E183F3999651@cs.ubc.ca> References: <746DC5AB-D9A4-445B-B073-E183F3999651@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I think one of the most impressive front panels is that of the IBM 360/91: > http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/36091.html Ha! I was looking at that and I said to myself "This looks like something that'd have been at NASA during the Apollo missions on some old newsreel." Then @2 seconds later I see one of the photos has a banner in the background saying... "NASA". -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 24 13:58:29 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:58:29 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2016, Marc Howard wrote: > Those aren't LED's on the Apollo display. They are EL's (Electro > Luminescent displays). Each segment of each digit was controlled by a > relay. They astronauts eventually got use to the tinkling sound of the > relays. Is that the same as the EL that was used in the 1980's on lots of old stereo gear ? Ie.. you'd hit rewind and some little backlit glass-and-silkscreen template would say "Rewind" in blue or green or etc.. I LOVE the way that looks. That's one of the reasons why I love the Amiga CD32 (not that I own one.... yet). It looks like a hifi stereo component from the 1980s. I have a Kenwood electronic EQ and spectrum analyzer that has all kinds of EL elements on the front of it. I still use it daily. It's awesome. -Swift From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 24 14:05:37 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 13:05:37 -0600 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 12:58 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Is that the same as the EL that was used in the 1980's on lots of old > stereo gear ? Ie.. you'd hit rewind and some little backlit > glass-and-silkscreen template would say "Rewind" in blue or green or etc.. Those were typically vacuum fluorescent (VFD). From useddec at gmail.com Tue May 24 14:06:29 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:06:29 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used to have a notebook of toggle in programs for the PDP8s and PDP11s, but it seems to be lost forever. Not being a software person it takes me hours to write and debug the simplest routines. Is there a site with a list of toggle in maintenance programs? On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Charles Anthony < charles.unix.pro at gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 8:38 AM, Swift Griggs > wrote: > > > > > Since I'm an igmo about most machines before the mid-eighties (and still > > fuzzy even on most of those), I'm curious about all these older machines > > with front panel buttons and switches. What all did they do? You could > > actually program them using the front panel right? Some of them > > bootstrapped this way, too? What kind of "language" was used for that > > (ie.. what were the basic mechanics)? Did the buttons ever change color? > > Were you considered a badass if you had switch flipping all memorized > down > > to an art? Were they mainly multi-position toggle switches or on/off > > buttons? > > > > They just seem to be a lot more important on older mainframes and minis. > > Also, what was the main reason for the blinkenlights? Was it to show > > system load or specific system states? > > > > Just curious. I'm learning a ton from reading these threads on older > > machines, but there is so much I don't know. > > > > > "Older machines" covers a lot of ground..... > > In my experience (PDP-11, PDP-8 PDP-15, Nova, IBM 709, DPS8 and others), > the panel switches and lights were for primarily for bootstrapping and > debugging. > > Typically, there was a set of data switches (0/1 toggles) that could be set > to an address or data value, and a set of command switches (momentary > contact) that copied the data switches to some data register or memory. > > For the earlier or cheaper systems, there was no 'bootstrap ROM'; so a > small program that was capable of reading the first record of a paper or > magnetic tape into memory and running it was needed. This program was > documented in ''machine language' -- a list of binary values that needed to > be placed in specific memory locations. Hypothetical example (in octal): > > Starting at location 0: > > 1456 > 3342 > 3300 > 3040 > 0070 > > (expressed in octal). > > To bootstrap the machine, you loaded a paper tape containing the program > you wanted to run in the reader. Next, you hit the 'RESET' on the console; > among other things, that would set the console 'next address' register and > the instruction counter to 0. > > You then set the data switches to 001100101110 (1456 in binary), and press > 'DEPOSIT'. Thus would copy the data switches to memory at the location in > the 'next address' register and increment the register. You then repeated > this for each data value -- toggle in the value, press deposit. When done, > you pressed 'START'. The RESET had set the instruction counter to 0, so the > CPU would start executing code at location 0, which contains the 1456 > instruction, and your bootstrap is off and running. It reads some number > of characters from the paper tape into memory, and then starts executing > them. Those characters will be a more complex boot strap loader that will > read them rest of the tape into memory and run it. > > Later or more expensive options of these machines would have a bootstrap > loader in ROM. Typically, you would toggle in the the address of the ROM > into the instruction counter and then boot device ID into the data toggles > and then start the CPU. > > For the DPS8 there was a bootstrap ROM, a set of switches specifying card > reader or tape boot, the device ID and a 'BOOT' button. The data switches > would be examined by the operating system during boot to enable debugging > (pause at certain points during boot, eg). > > The 709 had these massively over-engineered rocker switches, reminiscent > of circuit breakers, and a reset switch which activated a electric motor in > the console which physically set the switches back to 0. > > The PDP-15 had a 'CPU speed' knob. turning it would continuously vary the > CPU clock from 1Hz to full speed. > > The blinking lights typically would have at least the instruction counter > and the accumulator. Other registers might be displayed, as well as the > instruction being executed, operand address and value, condition code bits, > IO activity, interrupt status, and much more. > > Watching the instruction counter could reveal the CPU to stuck in a short > loop; or, if halted, what instruction it was at when it halted. > > The console switches and lights could be used to examine memory locations > as part of debugging. > > If the program was stuck in a loop, the console switches could be used to > halt the CPU and examine where in the program it was looping and the values > of the variables that controlled the loop. > > Some of the mainframes had hundreds and hundreds of lights, detailing the > internal state of the machine; mostly of interest to field engineers. > > -- Charles > From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 24 14:08:11 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:08:11 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> On 05/24/2016 11:22 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/24/16 10:44 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> There was also automated "stapled wire". I forget the name for the >> process. >> > > stitch wire > > you spot weld to a socket post Yes, but there was a trademarked name for the process that slips my mind. Capable of very high densities. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 24 14:13:29 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:13:29 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> On 05/24/2016 11:39 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Paul Koning > wrote: >>> On May 24, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Chuck Guzis >>> wrote: ...and the "transformer" ROS used on the 360/40 (and >>> others). >> You mean "Core rope memory"? > > IBM's TROS and Core Rope Memory use the same principle, but the > physical construction is significantly different. Core rope memory > was very labor-intensive to manufacture, while TROS was not. There's a photo here; http://www.cs.sun.ac.za/museum/memory.html I seem to recall that reworking the 360/30 microprogramming was preferred by tinkerers over the 360/40 was primarily that CROS was easier to work with than TROS. I don't recall what the RCA Spectrolas used. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 24 14:15:58 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 13:15:58 -0600 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yes, but there was a trademarked name for the process that slips my > mind. Capable of very high densities. Multiwire? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 24 14:18:32 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:18:32 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50909CAE-27BC-4163-9A9A-8EC17C6A9790@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-24, at 11:58 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Marc Howard wrote: >> Those aren't LED's on the Apollo display. They are EL's (Electro >> Luminescent displays). Each segment of each digit was controlled by a >> relay. They astronauts eventually got use to the tinkling sound of the >> relays. > > Is that the same as the EL that was used in the 1980's on lots of old > stereo gear ? Ie.. you'd hit rewind and some little backlit > glass-and-silkscreen template would say "Rewind" in blue or green or etc.. > > I LOVE the way that looks. That's one of the reasons why I love the Amiga > CD32 (not that I own one.... yet). It looks like a hifi stereo component > from the 1980s. I have a Kenwood electronic EQ and spectrum analyzer that > has all kinds of EL elements on the front of it. I still use it daily. > It's awesome. You might be thinking of vacuum-flourescent displays, the green or green-blue displays prevalent on calculators, VCRs, microwave ovens, etc. in the 70-90's (sometimes with some red phosphor). The principle of VF displays is essentially that of a CRT: vacuum bottle with hot filament emitting electrons accelerated to an anode to hit a phosphor to emit light. EL (Electro-luminescent) is another technology that more-directly excites the phosphor with an AC supply. No vacuum bottle or hot filament. Nowhere near as prevalent as VF. From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue May 24 14:27:35 2016 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 19:27:35 +0000 Subject: VAX-11/730 and Emulex UC17 woes Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062999665C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Hi all -- I'm working on restoring a VAX-11/730 at the museum and things have been going pretty well thus far. I've been bootstrapping the console and diagnostics from simulated TU58 (images from: https://github.com/NF6X/VAX-11-730-Console-v57). All of the TU58-based diagnostics are passing. I'm attempting to bring up an Emulex UC17 SCSI controller for mass storage and I'm having trouble with it. I thought I'd check with you guys to see if any of you have seen this issue or have any idea where I might be obviously going wrong before I start digging deeper into this. The current issue is that I can't get the UC17's built in diagnostic/utility (referred to as the 'FRD' in the manual) to run. I am following all of the steps to the letter (see the manual here http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/UC1751001-C_UC17_Dec90.pdf, pages 71-79 (section 4.5.7)) and I'm getting the right values back when examining the SA register during the process, but executing "S 80" halts after a second or so with: ?08 PC=00000298 Which is an odd way for it to halt, 08 means "No user WCS" according to the 11/730 user's guide. Here's the full conversation, just in case: >>> I >>> D/L/P F26800 80000000 >>> D/L/P F26804 80000001 >>> D/W/P FFF46A 3003 >>> E/W/P FFF46A P 00FFF46A 0100 >>> D/W/P FFF46A 4401 >>> E/W/P FFF46A P 00FFF46A 0400 >>> S 80 ?08 PC=00000298 I've confirmed that the issue isn't with the card, I can run the FRD without issue on it, in an 11/44 we have here. I've done my best to ensure that everything is sane on the UNIBUS; my understanding from the 11/730 manuals is that by default none of the SPC slots have the NPG wire-wrap fitted and that any empty SPC slots need to have an NPG grant card installed. (This makes sense given how difficult the backplane is to access, it requires pulling the power supply out first.) Just to make sure, I have double-checked that the NPG wirewrap jumper is not present on Slot 10, where the UC17 is installed. At the moment the grant chain should be unbroken as far as I can tell, here is the current configuration: TOP Slot 1 - Empty (normally RB730 option) Slot 2- Empty (normally FPA option) Slot 3- M8390 (DAP) Slot 4- M8391 (MCT) Slot 5- M8394 (WCS) Slot 6- M8750 (1mb memory) Slot 7- M8750 (1mb memory) Slot 8- M8750 (1mb memory) Slot 9- M8750 (1mb memory) Slot 10- Emulex UC17 Slot 11- DMF32-AA Slot 12- M9302 terminator | G7273 grant BOTTOM Thanks as always for the help. - Josh From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 24 14:33:17 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:33:17 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0C727C58-74E6-431C-AE78-05F81BA55B54@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-24, at 12:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/24/2016 11:22 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 5/24/16 10:44 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> There was also automated "stapled wire". I forget the name for the >>> process. >> >> stitch wire >> >> you spot weld to a socket post > > Yes, but there was a trademarked name for the process that slips my > mind. Capable of very high densities. I've wondered what the trade name for this was: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/pics/large/crimps.jpg Mid-late 60s usage but I've never heard a name for it. Note the posts are not square - they're not standard wire-wrap posts with a different connector. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue May 24 14:37:55 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:37:55 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Charles Anthony < charles.unix.pro at gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 9:44 AM, Swift Griggs > wrote: > >> >> It probably still impressed the suits when they walked the data center. >> I've done data center tours with row after row of HP or Dell x86 servers >> and it's not much to look at. >> >> > Definitely. > > Several OSes would show distinctive 'idle' patterns on the lights, this > provided a quick visual cue about system load for the big multi-user > systems. > > As I understand it, the Transputer (an early multicpu system designed to > parallel computation had a simple buf effective display -- an LED for for > each CPU indicatiing if the CPU was working or idle, this told you at a > glance if you parallelization algortihim was effective. > > Oops. Connection Machine, not Transputer. > -- Charles > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 24 14:39:24 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:39:24 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <50909CAE-27BC-4163-9A9A-8EC17C6A9790@cs.ubc.ca> References: <50909CAE-27BC-4163-9A9A-8EC17C6A9790@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5744ADEC.5070009@sydex.com> On 05/24/2016 12:18 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > EL (Electro-luminescent) is another technology that more-directly > excites the phosphor with an AC supply. No vacuum bottle or hot > filament. Nowhere near as prevalent as VF. You still see them in military/aerospace applications. Planar used to be industry leader in those, but it was acquired a couple of years ago by a Finnish outfit, Beneq. The business unit is called Lumineq: http://lumineq.com/ Thin-film EL displays are pretty cool. They're transparent. Like all modern EL displays, they're pre-patterned with display elements. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 24 14:28:23 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:28:23 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5744AB57.5050703@sydex.com> On 05/24/2016 12:15 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis > wrote: >> Yes, but there was a trademarked name for the process that slips >> my mind. Capable of very high densities. > > > Multiwire? That sounds familiar! --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue May 24 14:48:22 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:48:22 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/730 and Emulex UC17 woes In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062999665C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062999665C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm working on restoring a VAX-11/730 at the museum and things have been going pretty well thus far. I've been bootstrapping the console and diagnostics from simulated TU58 (images from: https://github.com/NF6X/VAX-11-730-Console-v57). All of the TU58-based diagnostics are passing. > > I'm attempting to bring up an Emulex UC17 SCSI controller for mass storage and I'm having trouble with it. I thought I'd check with you guys to see if any of you have seen this issue or have any idea where I might be obviously going wrong before I start digging deeper into this. > > The current issue is that I can't get the UC17's built in diagnostic/utility (referred to as the 'FRD' in the manual) to run. I am following all of the steps to the letter (see the manual here http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/UC1751001-C_UC17_Dec90.pdf, pages 71-79 (section 4.5.7)) and I'm getting the right values back when examining the SA register during the process, but executing "S 80" halts after a second or so with: > > ?08 PC=00000298 > > Which is an odd way for it to halt, 08 means "No user WCS" according to the 11/730 user's guide. > > Here's the full conversation, just in case: > >>>> I >>>> D/L/P F26800 80000000 >>>> D/L/P F26804 80000001 >>>> D/W/P FFF46A 3003 >>>> E/W/P FFF46A > P 00FFF46A 0100 >>>> D/W/P FFF46A 4401 >>>> E/W/P FFF46A > P 00FFF46A 0400 >>>> S 80 > > ?08 PC=00000298 > > I've confirmed that the issue isn't with the card, I can run the FRD without issue on it, in an 11/44 we have here. > Don't know if this will help at all. Not sure if the UC07 and UC17 share the same firmware and VAX host resident FRD code. On the QBus UC07 version (firmware version G143R) there is a short stub located at 80h which jumps to the main code at 280h. (If you have a VCB02 instead of a serial console you start at 82h which then jumps to 282h and does something slightly different). I dumped the memory for this code from the VAX and entered it into SIMH to use SIMH as an VAX unassembler and this is what it looks like. If the UC17 host resident VAX code is the same, any clues here as to what might be causing a halt on the 11/730? sim> e -m 80-87 80: BRB 85 82: BRW 282 85: BRW 280 sim> e -m 280-3d3 280: BRB 298 282: BISB2 #1,27F 286: MOVL #80000003,@#2008800C 291: MTPR #800,#4 298: MOVL #80000002,@#20088008 2A3: NOP 2A4: MTPR #1F,#12 2A7: MOVAL 400,R1 2AE: MOVL #200,R2 2B5: MOVL #0,(R1)+ 2B8: SOBGTR R2,2B5 2BB: MOVL #20001468,R5 2C2: CLRW (R5) 2C4: BITW #800,2(R5) 2CA: BEQL 2C4 2CC: MOVW #3003,2(R5) 2D2: CMPW #100,2(R5) 2D8: BNEQ 2D2 2DA: MOVW #4600,2(R5) 2E0: CMPW #400,2(R5) 2E6: BNEQ 2E0 2E8: MOVW #400,2(R5) 2EE: TSTB 27F 2F1: BEQL 30E 2F3: MOVL #1,R0 2F6: JSB @#20040008 2FC: CMPB #18,R0 2FF: BNEQ 304 301: BRW 362 304: EXTZV #0,#7,R0,R0 309: MOVL R0,R2 30C: BRB 338 30E: MFPR #20,R1 311: BBC #7,R1,362 315: MFPR #21,R2 318: EXTZV #0,#7,R2,R2 31D: CMPB R2,#13 320: BNEQ 338 322: MFPR #20,R0 325: BBC #7,R0,322 329: MFPR #21,R0 32C: EXTZV #0,#7,R0,R0 331: CMPB R0,#11 334: BNEQ 322 336: BRB 362 338: BISW2 #200,R2 33D: MOVW R2,2(R5) 341: MOVW 2(R5),R2 345: BITW #200,R2 34A: BEQL 341 34C: BICL2 #200,R2 353: MOVW R2,2(R5) 357: MOVW 2(R5),R2 35B: BITW #200,R2 360: BNEQ 357 362: MOVW 2(R5),R2 366: BITW #100,R2 36B: BEQL 2EE 36D: MOVW R2,2(R5) 371: MOVW 2(R5),R2 375: BITW #100,R2 37A: BNEQ 371 37C: BICW2 #100,R2 381: MOVW R2,2(R5) 385: EXTZV #0,#7,R2,R2 38A: BEQL 3C4 38C: TSTB 27F 390: BEQL 3B3 392: MOVB R2,3CF 399: MOVAL 3C7,R0 3A0: JSB @#2004000C 3A6: MOVW 2(R5),R2 3AA: BITW #100,R2 3AF: BEQL 3A6 3B1: BRB 36D 3B3: MFPR #22,R1 3B6: BBC #7,R1,3B3 3BA: MTPR R2,#23 3BD: MFPR #22,R1 3C0: BBC #7,R1,3BD 3C4: BRW 2EE From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 24 14:49:32 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:49:32 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8FAC2DCE-4DCC-4222-A69D-4E6AA2D66AD8@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-24, at 11:39 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On May 24, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> ...and the "transformer" ROS used on the 360/40 (and others). >> You mean "Core rope memory"? > > IBM's TROS and Core Rope Memory use the same principle, but the > physical construction is significantly different. Core rope memory was > very labor-intensive to manufacture, while TROS was not. We were discussing this last year, perhaps I'm being pedantic but I would note that while, as you say, there is commonality of principle in use of induction and the selective weave to represent the data, TROS and core rope (of the sort used in the AGC) also have differences in their principles of operation - they're not just physical variations on each other. From turing at shaw.ca Tue May 24 13:13:01 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:13:01 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <57448CF5.5060207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1314377335.63483369.1464113581139.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca> The IBM 1800 was a much simpler machine than the IBM 360/370, yet it had a pretty complex front panel - http://www.dvq.com/1800/photos/paneln.JPG ... since not all of the registers could be displayed at the same time . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Berger" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 10:18:45 AM Subject: Re: Front panel switches - what did they do? On 2016-05-24 1:54 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: >> Honeywell 6180 display panels: >> http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/03/honeywell-6180-system-maintenance-panel.html > Holy rocker switch, Batman! Is that all for one machine? That looks like a > man-machine interface to run a nuclear power plant or something. FOUR > panels. The black panel looks uber-cool. That definitely looks like > something from a 60's or 70's James bond film. There needs to be a villain > about ready to launch a missile standing next to one. > > Oh and here is a replica of an Apollo launch computer with a component LED > display like I was mentioning: > > http://i.imgur.com/bbXZVcx.jpg > > ... probably too expensive to embed in a computer system, but still hard > to beat for geek aesthetics. > > -Swift > > The most impressive one I ever saw was when I was in technician school we had a tour of the underground in North Bay Ont. where we saw what was probably the last running AN/FSQ-7, the operator panel was very impressive. Some of the early 370 systems that still had blinkenlights only had one or two rows and rotary switchs selected what you where viewing. Attached to the switch there was a cylinder behind the panel that showed a legend of what the lights meant for the selected location. The also had hex dials on the panel for data input. Paul. From davidk.collins at bigpond.com Tue May 24 15:04:27 2016 From: davidk.collins at bigpond.com (David Collins) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 06:04:27 +1000 Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( In-Reply-To: References: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> <20160522194941.GA4588@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <005201d1b5c8$26a6b040$73f410c0$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <2C7AF88C-C562-4F18-878D-89C13FD3222F@bigpond.com> I realised the attachments wouldn't show in the general email but I figured the only people who needed the binaries right now were the original posters who got them directly from the email. I'll put up the binaries of my EPROMs and the ones of yours when you post them as downloads in the museum website over the next few days so they are there for the future for anyone else who might need them. Martin/Joachim, let us know if any of the files you now have or will get fixes your issue and if a Draftmaster II is saved as a result!! David Collins www.hpmuseum.net > On 25 May 2016, at 2:17 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 10:25 AM, David Collins > wrote: >> Here are the binaries for all the EPROMs on processor PCA for my 7596A. The >> PCA part number is 07595-60100 and is different from the one in the manual >> which is a 07595-60200 so I assume my PCA is older than the one in the >> manual. > > I did not have an 8mm socket wrench with me when I visited my 7596A so > I wasn't able to entirely remove the cover. I did slip the camera in > under the lower edge and did extract U28 and U37 from mine for > dumping... > >> The EPROMs on the PCA are as follows: >> >> 17225-18001 U26 >> 17225-18002 U35 >> 17225-18003 U41 >> 17225-18004 U42 > > These were empty on my plotter, best I could tell. > >> 07595-18097 U28 >> 07595-18098 U37 > > I found these in those sockets: > > 07595-18095 U28 > 07595-18096 U37 > >> Unknown U27 - no part number label >> Unknown U36 - no part number label > > These sockets are definitely empty on my plotter. > >> Binaries for each chip are attached. All are 27512 EPROMs. > > This list doesn't support attachments, so most of us didn't get them. > > I'm happy to send along my copies of 07595-18095 / 07595-18096 when I > get them read out. > > -ethan From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue May 24 15:20:22 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 08:20:22 +1200 Subject: VAX-11/730 and Emulex UC17 woes In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062999665C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062999665C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm working on restoring a VAX-11/730 at the museum and things have been going pretty well thus far. I've been bootstrapping the console and diagnostics from simulated TU58 (images from: https://github.com/NF6X/VAX-11-730-Console-v57). All of the TU58-based diagnostics are passing. > > I'm attempting to bring up an Emulex UC17 SCSI controller for mass storage and I'm having trouble with it. I thought I'd check with you guys to see if any of you have seen this issue or have any idea where I might be obviously going wrong before I start digging deeper into this. > > The current issue is that I can't get the UC17's built in diagnostic/utility (referred to as the 'FRD' in the manual) to run. I am following all of the steps to the letter (see the manual here http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/UC1751001-C_UC17_Dec90.pdf, pages 71-79 (section 4.5.7)) and I'm getting the right values back when examining the SA register during the process, but executing "S 80" halts after a second or so with: > > ?08 PC=00000298 > > Which is an odd way for it to halt, 08 means "No user WCS" according to the 11/730 user's guide. > > Here's the full conversation, just in case: > >>>> I >>>> D/L/P F26800 80000000 >>>> D/L/P F26804 80000001 >>>> D/W/P FFF46A 3003 >>>> E/W/P FFF46A > P 00FFF46A 0100 >>>> D/W/P FFF46A 4401 >>>> E/W/P FFF46A > P 00FFF46A 0400 >>>> S 80 > > ?08 PC=00000298 > > I've confirmed that the issue isn't with the card, I can run the FRD without issue on it, in an 11/44 we have here. > > I've done my best to ensure that everything is sane on the UNIBUS; my understanding from the 11/730 manuals is that by default none of the SPC slots have the NPG wire-wrap fitted and that any empty SPC slots need to have an NPG grant card installed. (This makes sense given how difficult the backplane is to access, it requires pulling the power supply out first.) Just to make sure, I have double-checked that the NPG wirewrap jumper is not present on Slot 10, where the UC17 is installed. At the moment the grant chain should be unbroken as far as I can tell, here is the current configuration: > > TOP > Slot 1 - Empty (normally RB730 option) > Slot 2- Empty (normally FPA option) > Slot 3- M8390 (DAP) > Slot 4- M8391 (MCT) > Slot 5- M8394 (WCS) > Slot 6- M8750 (1mb memory) > Slot 7- M8750 (1mb memory) > Slot 8- M8750 (1mb memory) > Slot 9- M8750 (1mb memory) > Slot 10- Emulex UC17 > Slot 11- DMF32-AA > Slot 12- M9302 terminator | G7273 grant > BOTTOM > > Thanks as always for the help. > - Josh That sounds a HELL of a lot like the issues I was having - and which I haven't resolved yet. Someone provided me with a hex dump of memory starting at location 80 as you say and what I found was that the code I was seeing that the UC17 had loaded into memory had several locations with quite different values to those that had been dumped from a working system. I did the obvious and manually deposited at least the first few 'wrong' locations to the 'correct' values; the behaviour changed. Instead of halting with an error the run light stayed on but no utility menu was displayed; the machine was hung. I recently obtained and very briefly tried a second UC17 with similar results - except on this card (same firmware version) the values in memory prior to 'S 80' were even more 'wrong'. Haven't got further yet but will have a hack in a few days. Do you know beyond peradventure that the NPG wire-wrap IS removed? I don't and will have to check. My 11/730 also passed all diags - well until it got to the RL02 bit where it failed due to no RL02! Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 24 15:24:02 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 22:24:02 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 23 May 2016 at 13:25, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >> Isn't it possible to run dosemu on FreeBSD? I use imdv in dosemu on Linux. > > Unfortunately, dosemu only works on i386, not amd64. Is that a *BSD thing? I run DOSemu on both my x86-64 Linux laptops, no problem. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 24 15:26:43 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 13:26:43 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> Message-ID: We bought a Multiwire job on our clone of the Microdata 1600 and the tech it used, I think, was welded wires laid in muck that was soft. They would fab up a firm carrier board with all the thru-holes set, then put down a soft pliable layer of epoxy(??). They would weld one of the wires to an appropriate thru-hole then the wire would be pushed into the media and routed to the terminus. Similar to wirewrap process from the routing requirements (keep number of connections to any post / thruhole adhering to design rules). But when it was complete, you could see all the wires thru the goo they used after it hardened or was set up. The set we had worked well, but was about 3500 bucks for an approximately 8 x 10 board with a 130pin edge card connector. Kinda pricy. However, if you had a working design, it was overnight turnaround with a PC. thanks Jim On 5/24/2016 12:15 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yes, but there was a trademarked name for the process that slips my >> mind. Capable of very high densities. > > Multiwire? > > From tingox at gmail.com Tue May 24 15:28:30 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 22:28:30 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 23 May 2016 at 13:25, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: >> On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >>> >>> Isn't it possible to run dosemu on FreeBSD? I use imdv in dosemu on Linux. >> >> Unfortunately, dosemu only works on i386, not amd64. > > > Is that a *BSD thing? I run DOSemu on both my x86-64 Linux laptops, no problem. Possibly. Perhaps even just a FreeBSD thing. My Fedora laptop lists dosemu packages for both i686 and x86-64: [tingo at localhost ~]$ sudo dnf list dosemu Last metadata expiration check: 2:48:48 ago on Tue May 24 19:37:09 2016. Available Packages dosemu.i686 1.4.0.8-18.20131022git.fc22 rpmfusion-free dosemu.x86_64 1.4.0.8-18.20131022git.fc22 rpmfusion-free -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 24 15:29:48 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 22:29:48 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 22 May 2016 at 04:52, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > Because the 808x was a 16-bit processor with 1MB physical addressing. I > would argue that for the time 808x was brilliant in that most other 16-bit > micros only allowed for 64KB physical. Er, hang on. I'm not sure if my knowledge isn't good enough or if that's a typo. AFAIK most *8* bits only supported 64 kB physical. Most *16* bits (e.g. 68000, 65816, 80286, 80386SX) supported 16MB physical RAM. Am I missing something here? I always considered the 8088/8086 as a sort of hybrid 8/16-bit processor. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 24 15:34:45 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 13:34:45 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7CD9CC9D-499C-40FE-A108-8347B5CF6153@cs.ubc.ca> > On 5/24/2016 12:15 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Yes, but there was a trademarked name for the process that slips my >>> mind. Capable of very high densities. >> >> Multiwire? On 2016-May-24, at 1:26 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > We bought a Multiwire job on our clone of the Microdata 1600 and the tech it used, I think, was welded wires laid in muck that was soft. > > They would fab up a firm carrier board with all the thru-holes set, then put down a soft pliable layer of epoxy(??). They would weld one of the wires to an appropriate thru-hole then the wire would be pushed into the media and routed to the terminus. Similar to wirewrap process from the routing requirements (keep number of connections to any post / thruhole adhering to design rules). But when it was complete, you could see all the wires thru the goo they used after it hardened or was set up. > > The set we had worked well, but was about 3500 bucks for an approximately 8 x 10 board with a 130pin edge card connector. Kinda pricy. However, if you had a working design, it was overnight turnaround with a PC. I haven't so much as seen a multi-wire board since ca. 1980, even in all the scrap and junk and surplus I've seen in the decades since. The primary example I recall from then was a big disk controller board for a TI-990/10. From davidk.collins at bigpond.com Tue May 24 15:44:32 2016 From: davidk.collins at bigpond.com (David Collins) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 06:44:32 +1000 Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( References: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> <20160522194941.GA4588@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <000801d1b5fd$14a5d260$3df17720$@bigpond.com> Here's a link to the files I have. I'll update this with the additional images from Ethan when they are available and put a front end to the files in the museum. http://www.hpmuseum.net/software/7595Afirmware.zip David Collins -----Original Message----- From: David Collins [mailto:davidk.collins at bigpond.com] Sent: Wednesday, 25 May 2016 12:26 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' ; 'martin at shackspace.de' ; 'Joachim Fenkes' Subject: RE: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( Here are the binaries for all the EPROMs on processor PCA for my 7596A. The PCA part number is 07595-60100 and is different from the one in the manual which is a 07595-60200 so I assume my PCA is older than the one in the manual. The EPROMs on the PCA are as follows: 17225-18001 U26 17225-18002 U35 17225-18003 U41 17225-18004 U42 07595-18097 U28 07595-18098 U37 Unknown U27 - no part number label Unknown U36 - no part number label Binaries for each chip are attached. All are 27512 EPROMs. I have also included photos of the PCA and the EPROMs in position. Hope that helps. David Collins Curator HP Computer Museum www.hpmuseum.net -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Martin Peters Sent: Monday, 23 May 2016 5:50 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( Hi David! David Collins: > Martin, I might be able to help you as I think we have a 7596A. Great! :) > Are these EPROMs from the processor PCA? I think so. > Are you able to tell me which 'U' > numbers they are in the PC board? No, not now. The plotter is in the shackspace in Stuttgart and I was not there for several weeks and now I found an email saying they want to get rid of it. I already asked for the dumps here one year ago and now it seems to be really urgent. > I haven't looked at the plotter itself, but the service manual we have > shows the following part numbers for the processor PCA > > 07595-18039 > 07595-18040 > 07595-18041 > 07595-18042 I know. As I was told by the guy who took a look inside one year ago, these parts do not exist in the revision we own. But I think, they only put the firmware in two EPROMs at HP in a newer revision of the board. And if not "only", I think the dumps would be helpful anyway. It would be great if you could do a dump for me :-) Many thanks, Martin -- Martin Peters martin at shackspace.de From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 24 15:49:34 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:49:34 -0600 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <8FAC2DCE-4DCC-4222-A69D-4E6AA2D66AD8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <8FAC2DCE-4DCC-4222-A69D-4E6AA2D66AD8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > We were discussing this last year, perhaps I'm being pedantic but I would note that while, as you say, there is commonality of principle in use of induction and the selective weave to represent the data, TROS and core rope (of the sort used in the AGC) also have differences in their principles of operation - they're not just physical variations on each other. My understanding is that both used drive lines that either went through the transformer, or around it, to either couple a drive line to a sense line, or not. In the case of CRM, the wires are essentially braided with the cores, while in TROS, holes are punched in strips of flex circuit to break one of the two paths the drive line can take for each sense position, and the transformer core is a two-part rectangular thing rather than a little toroid. If I'm wrong, or missing some fine point distinguishing them, I'd welcome corrections or additional information. From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue May 24 15:58:17 2016 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:58:17 +0000 Subject: VAX-11/730 and Emulex UC17 woes In-Reply-To: References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062999665C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299966B2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 12:48 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VAX-11/730 and Emulex UC17 woes > > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Josh Dersch > wrote: > > Hi all -- > > > > I'm working on restoring a VAX-11/730 at the museum and things have > been going pretty well thus far. I've been bootstrapping the console and > diagnostics from simulated TU58 (images from: > https://github.com/NF6X/VAX-11-730-Console-v57). All of the TU58-based > diagnostics are passing. > > > > I'm attempting to bring up an Emulex UC17 SCSI controller for mass storage > and I'm having trouble with it. I thought I'd check with you guys to see if any > of you have seen this issue or have any idea where I might be obviously > going wrong before I start digging deeper into this. > > > > The current issue is that I can't get the UC17's built in diagnostic/utility > (referred to as the 'FRD' in the manual) to run. I am following all of the steps > to the letter (see the manual here > http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/UC175 > 1001-C_UC17_Dec90.pdf, pages 71-79 (section 4.5.7)) and I'm getting the > right values back when examining the SA register during the process, but > executing "S 80" halts after a second or so with: > > > > ?08 PC=00000298 > > > > Which is an odd way for it to halt, 08 means "No user WCS" according to the > 11/730 user's guide. > > > > Here's the full conversation, just in case: > > > >>>> I > >>>> D/L/P F26800 80000000 > >>>> D/L/P F26804 80000001 > >>>> D/W/P FFF46A 3003 > >>>> E/W/P FFF46A > > P 00FFF46A 0100 > >>>> D/W/P FFF46A 4401 > >>>> E/W/P FFF46A > > P 00FFF46A 0400 > >>>> S 80 > > > > ?08 PC=00000298 > > > > I've confirmed that the issue isn't with the card, I can run the FRD without > issue on it, in an 11/44 we have here. > > > > Don't know if this will help at all. Not sure if the UC07 and UC17 share the > same firmware and VAX host resident FRD code. On the QBus > UC07 version (firmware version G143R) there is a short stub located at 80h > which jumps to the main code at 280h. (If you have a VCB02 instead of a > serial console you start at 82h which then jumps to 282h and does something > slightly different). Interesting, the UC17 has the same firmware version (G143R) on the label of the EPROM. I wonder if the contents are identical. Could you send me a dump of your ROM so I can compare? > > I dumped the memory for this code from the VAX and entered it into SIMH > to use SIMH as an VAX unassembler and this is what it looks like. > If the UC17 host resident VAX code is the same, any clues here as to what > might be causing a halt on the 11/730? The values in/around 298 look to be identical, but I haven't dumped everything in memory. I'll poke at the code, do some disassembly and see I can figure out what's going on... Thanks! Josh > > sim> e -m 80-87 > 80: BRB 85 > 82: BRW 282 > 85: BRW 280 > > sim> e -m 280-3d3 > 280: BRB 298 > 282: BISB2 #1,27F > 286: MOVL #80000003,@#2008800C > 291: MTPR #800,#4 > 298: MOVL #80000002,@#20088008 > 2A3: NOP > 2A4: MTPR #1F,#12 > 2A7: MOVAL 400,R1 > 2AE: MOVL #200,R2 > 2B5: MOVL #0,(R1)+ > 2B8: SOBGTR R2,2B5 > 2BB: MOVL #20001468,R5 > 2C2: CLRW (R5) > 2C4: BITW #800,2(R5) > 2CA: BEQL 2C4 > 2CC: MOVW #3003,2(R5) > 2D2: CMPW #100,2(R5) > 2D8: BNEQ 2D2 > 2DA: MOVW #4600,2(R5) > 2E0: CMPW #400,2(R5) > 2E6: BNEQ 2E0 > 2E8: MOVW #400,2(R5) > 2EE: TSTB 27F > 2F1: BEQL 30E > 2F3: MOVL #1,R0 > 2F6: JSB @#20040008 > 2FC: CMPB #18,R0 > 2FF: BNEQ 304 > 301: BRW 362 > 304: EXTZV #0,#7,R0,R0 > 309: MOVL R0,R2 > 30C: BRB 338 > 30E: MFPR #20,R1 > 311: BBC #7,R1,362 > 315: MFPR #21,R2 > 318: EXTZV #0,#7,R2,R2 > 31D: CMPB R2,#13 > 320: BNEQ 338 > 322: MFPR #20,R0 > 325: BBC #7,R0,322 > 329: MFPR #21,R0 > 32C: EXTZV #0,#7,R0,R0 > 331: CMPB R0,#11 > 334: BNEQ 322 > 336: BRB 362 > 338: BISW2 #200,R2 > 33D: MOVW R2,2(R5) > 341: MOVW 2(R5),R2 > 345: BITW #200,R2 > 34A: BEQL 341 > 34C: BICL2 #200,R2 > 353: MOVW R2,2(R5) > 357: MOVW 2(R5),R2 > 35B: BITW #200,R2 > 360: BNEQ 357 > 362: MOVW 2(R5),R2 > 366: BITW #100,R2 > 36B: BEQL 2EE > 36D: MOVW R2,2(R5) > 371: MOVW 2(R5),R2 > 375: BITW #100,R2 > 37A: BNEQ 371 > 37C: BICW2 #100,R2 > 381: MOVW R2,2(R5) > 385: EXTZV #0,#7,R2,R2 > 38A: BEQL 3C4 > 38C: TSTB 27F > 390: BEQL 3B3 > 392: MOVB R2,3CF > 399: MOVAL 3C7,R0 > 3A0: JSB @#2004000C > 3A6: MOVW 2(R5),R2 > 3AA: BITW #100,R2 > 3AF: BEQL 3A6 > 3B1: BRB 36D > 3B3: MFPR #22,R1 > 3B6: BBC #7,R1,3B3 > 3BA: MTPR R2,#23 > 3BD: MFPR #22,R1 > 3C0: BBC #7,R1,3BD > 3C4: BRW 2EE From turing at shaw.ca Tue May 24 15:53:25 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:53:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1702432974.63660683.1464123205107.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca> Without an MMU or a segmentation scheme, 16-bits = 64K. The 68000 is not a 16-bit processor, it's 32-bit, and exposed (ISTR) a 24-bit address. 20-bits = 1M addresses, 24-bits = 16M addresses. You're confusing data bus width (8-bit) with address bus width (16-bit). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 1:29:48 PM Subject: Re: strangest systems I've sent email from On 22 May 2016 at 04:52, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > Because the 808x was a 16-bit processor with 1MB physical addressing. I > would argue that for the time 808x was brilliant in that most other 16-bit > micros only allowed for 64KB physical. Er, hang on. I'm not sure if my knowledge isn't good enough or if that's a typo. AFAIK most *8* bits only supported 64 kB physical. Most *16* bits (e.g. 68000, 65816, 80286, 80386SX) supported 16MB physical RAM. Am I missing something here? I always considered the 8088/8086 as a sort of hybrid 8/16-bit processor. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 24 16:09:14 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:09:14 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <8FAC2DCE-4DCC-4222-A69D-4E6AA2D66AD8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <8807572B-2A6B-4F58-B8F9-9303B826615F@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-24, at 1:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> We were discussing this last year, perhaps I'm being pedantic but I would note that while, as you say, there is commonality of principle in use of induction and the selective weave to represent the data, TROS and core rope (of the sort used in the AGC) also have differences in their principles of operation - they're not just physical variations on each other. > > My understanding is that both used drive lines that either went > through the transformer, or around it, to either couple a drive line > to a sense line, or not. In the case of CRM, the wires are essentially > braided with the cores, while in TROS, holes are punched in strips of > flex circuit to break one of the two paths the drive line can take for > each sense position, and the transformer core is a two-part > rectangular thing rather than a little toroid. > > If I'm wrong, or missing some fine point distinguishing them, I'd > welcome corrections or additional information. Yes, I examined this in some detail last year after mention on the list, and wrote it up: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/corerope/index.html The short of it is, schemes like TROS are using simple induction / transformer principles with a selective weave through the transformer cores to represent the data. In contrast, (AGC-style) core ropes are using switching cores and core-logic principles to also do the 1-of-n address decoding within the cores. The address decoding requires a varied weave of address wires through the cores, in addition to the selective weave for the data. The read/access operation also becomes far more complex for the AGC-style core rope. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 24 16:10:53 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 22 May 2016 at 04:52, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > Because the 808x was a 16-bit processor with 1MB physical addressing. I > would argue that for the time 808x was brilliant in that most other 16-bit > micros only allowed for 64KB physical. Whether 8088 was an "8 bit" or "16 bit" processor depends heavily on how you define those. Or, you could phrase it, that the 8 bit processors at the time handled 64KiB of RAM. The 808x still could see only 64KiB at a time, but let you place that 64kiB almost anywhere that you wanted in a total RAM space of 1MiB, and let you set 4 "preset" locations (CS, DS, SS, ES). There were some instructions, such as MOV, that could sometimes operate with 2 of those presets. Thus, they expanded a 64KiB RAM processor to 1MiB, with minimal internal changes. As opposed to starting over from scratch, ala Motorola. Starting over from scratch made it possible to build an arguably better processor, whereas doing minimal changes reduced (and sometimes even eliminated) the need to rewrite existing code. Which is more important - theoretically better processor, or availability of existing software? Not everybody would choose the same. It was claimed that in porting Wordstar to PC, Micropro took longer to change the manual than to get the software working. Accordingly, software availability for the PC was more "immediate" than for the Mac. Both had extensive software availability by the end of the 1980s, but how about during the first 6 months after release of the machine? Since "Nobody programs in assembly any more, nor ever will again" (-Clancy/Harvey), that isn't as big a deal as it once was. (OB_Picky: Due to the overlap of segment and offset, on machines that had 21 address bits, real mode actually had a maximum of 1114096 (10FFF0h) bytes, instead of 1048576 (100000h). That was accessed by HIMEM.SYS at a time when memory space was scarce enough that another 64K could make a big difference.) From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue May 24 16:14:37 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 09:14:37 +1200 Subject: VAX-11/730 and Emulex UC17 woes In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299966B2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062999665C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299966B2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Interesting, the UC17 has the same firmware version (G143R) on the label of the EPROM. I wonder if the contents are identical. Could you send me a dump of your ROM so I can compare? > >> >> I dumped the memory for this code from the VAX and entered it into SIMH >> to use SIMH as an VAX unassembler and this is what it looks like. >> If the UC17 host resident VAX code is the same, any clues here as to what >> might be causing a halt on the 11/730? Here's what I found comparing my code with someone else's dump: I've been working this with Glen Slick. Here's a snippet of a recent email with him. He provided a dump of the DMAed loader from his UC07: The raw binary dumped on the VAX looked like this: >>>E/P/L 80 P 00000080 FD310311 >>>E P 00000084 01F83101 >>>E P 00000280 01881611 >>>E P 00000284 8FD0F9AF >>>E P 00000288 80000003 >>>E P 0000028C 08800C9F >>>E P 00000290 008FDA20 >>>E P 00000294 04000008 >>>E P 00000298 00028FD0 >>>E P 0000029C 089F8000 >>>E P 000002A0 01200880 First mismatch is here; P 000002A0 0100F308 >>>E P 000002A4 DE121FDA >>>E P 000002A8 000153EF >>>E P 000002AC 8FD05100 >>>E P 000002B0 00000200 >>>E P 000002B4 8100D052 >>>E P 000002B8 D0FA52F5 >>>E P 000002BC 0014688F But mine has P 000002BC FFF4688F >>>E P 000002C0 65B45520 Mine had P 000002C0 65B45500 >>>E Ran out of time at this point - but enough to establish at least *some* values are different. Tried S 80 - different error! ?05 PC=00000344 I did 'I' then started from scratch - D/L/P F26800... etc. Same result. Here's a quote from an email exchange from a couple of months ago on same issue: dumb question: have you tried just booting it without running FRD? "I think that UC17 is identical to UC07 firmware-wise. At least my UC17 EPROM is marked UC07. There is some posts on vcfed.org forum on UC07 firmware quite recently. Why do you need to enter the FRD? I never needed to do that. Just inserted the SCSI2SD with the SD-card in it and booted. Worked straight away." http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From spc at conman.org Tue May 24 16:19:14 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 17:19:14 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20160524211914.GC26326@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > On 22 May 2016 at 04:52, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > Because the 808x was a 16-bit processor with 1MB physical addressing. I > > would argue that for the time 808x was brilliant in that most other 16-bit > > micros only allowed for 64KB physical. > > Er, hang on. I'm not sure if my knowledge isn't good enough or if that's a typo. > > AFAIK most *8* bits only supported 64 kB physical. Most *16* bits > (e.g. 68000, 65816, 80286, 80386SX) supported 16MB physical RAM. > > Am I missing something here? It really depends on how you view a CPU, from a hardware or software perspective. From a software perspective, a 68000 was a 32-bit architecture. From a hardware perspective, the 68000 had a 16-bit bus and 24 physical address lines and I'm sure at the time (1979) that those hardware limits were more due to costs and manufactoring ability (a 68-pin chip was *huge* at the time) (furthermore, the 68008 was still ineternally a 32-bit architecture but only had an 8-bit external data bus---does this mean it's an 8bit CPU?). The 68020 (I'm not sure about the 68010) had a 32-bit physical address bus. You are right in that most 8-bit CPUs supported only 16 bits for a physical address but there were various methods to extend that [1] but limited to 64k at a time. > I always considered the 8088/8086 as a sort of hybrid 8/16-bit processor. Again, internally, the 8088 was a 16-bit archtecture but with an 8-bit external data bus (and a 20-bit physical address space). The 8086 had a full 16-bit external data bus (and still 20-bit address space) and thus, was a bit more expensive (not in CPU cost but more in external support with the motherboard and memory bus). The 80286 still had an external 16-bit bus but had 24-physical address lines (16MB). The 8088/8086 could address 1MB of memory. The reason for the 640k limit was due to IBM's implementation of the PC, chopping off the upper 384K for ROM and video memory. MS-DOS could easily use more, but it had to be a consecutive block. Some PCs in the early days of the clones did allow as much as 700-800K of RAM for MS-DOS, but they weren't 100% IBM PC compatible (BIOS yeah, but not hardware wise) and thus, were dead ends at the time. -spc [1] Bank switching was one---a special hardware register (either I/O mapped or memory mapped, depends upon the CPU) to enable/disable banks of memory. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue May 24 16:21:29 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 18:21:29 -0300 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5744C5D9.9030808@gmail.com> On 2016-05-24 4:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/24/2016 11:39 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Paul Koning >> wrote: >>>> On May 24, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Chuck Guzis >>>> wrote: ...and the "transformer" ROS used on the 360/40 (and >>>> others). >>> You mean "Core rope memory"? >> IBM's TROS and Core Rope Memory use the same principle, but the >> physical construction is significantly different. Core rope memory >> was very labor-intensive to manufacture, while TROS was not. > There's a photo here; > > http://www.cs.sun.ac.za/museum/memory.html > > I seem to recall that reworking the 360/30 microprogramming was > preferred by tinkerers over the 360/40 was primarily that CROS was > easier to work with than TROS. > > I don't recall what the RCA Spectrolas used. > > --Chuck > > > The CROS cards used in a 360/30 where the same size as an 80 column card on purpose so you could you a keypunch machine to program the microcode. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue May 24 16:29:04 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 22:29:04 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000 model 500. Message-ID: <36d9b0fa-eb79-5e5c-eeac-48ac26e8aede@btinternet.com> Hi My main system a VAX 4000 Model 500 with a KA680 CPU has just started halting at test 51 on power up. Does any body know where I can lay my hands on a spare KA680? Rod From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 24 16:32:14 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 15:32:14 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > (OB_Picky: Due to the overlap of segment and offset, on machines that had 21 > address bits, real mode actually had a maximum of 1114096 (10FFF0h) bytes, > instead of 1048576 (100000h). This was always the biggest pustule on the facade of x86 to me. Gate A20 and other chicanery was nasty business. It always struck me as a hardware hack to work around earlier bad design. Sure, you can eschew segmentation and try to use multiple instructions to delivery some flat addressing, and then your code was snail-slow. Real mode in 16 bit on x86 was/is some fairly vulgar stuff due to segmentation (hate hate hate). Then it was made "all better now" by protected mode and segment descriptors later *pat pat*. Yeah. Ugh. Pleah. Ick. All that fun sent me running into the arms of the M68k and it's git, and later MIPS (queue hallelujah chrous from the clouds). I'm not a MIPS god (we have a some here), but much love and respect to the architecture nonetheless. I know enough to know "that's the good stuff". Nowadays I wonder, since I'm using flat memory on the Unix boxes I code in (now pretty much just in C, I haven't done ASM in a long while), what kind of masochist maintains the SLAB/SLUB allocators for x86 Unix variants these days. I want to buy them a six pack, pat them on the back, and say "you're a braver man than, I." -Swift From spc at conman.org Tue May 24 16:33:42 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 17:33:42 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20160524213342.GD26326@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > On 22 May 2016 at 04:52, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >Because the 808x was a 16-bit processor with 1MB physical addressing. I > >would argue that for the time 808x was brilliant in that most other 16-bit > >micros only allowed for 64KB physical. > > Whether 8088 was an "8 bit" or "16 bit" processor depends heavily on how > you define those. > Or, you could phrase it, that the 8 bit processors at the time handled > 64KiB of RAM. The 808x still could see only 64KiB at a time, but let you > place that 64kiB almost anywhere that you wanted in a total RAM space of > 1MiB, and let you set 4 "preset" locations (CS, DS, SS, ES). There were > some instructions, such as MOV, that could sometimes operate with 2 of > those presets. > Thus, they expanded a 64KiB RAM processor to 1MiB, with minimal internal > changes. To further explain this. The 8086 (and 8088) was internally a 16-bit CPU. Since you could only address 64K, Intel used four "segment" registers to get around this limit. The four registers are CS, DS, ES and SS, and were the upper 16 bits of the 20-bit address [1]. A physical address was calculated as: +--------+--------+ | 16-bit segment |0000 +--------+--------+ +--------+--------+ + 0000| 16-bit offset | +--------+--------+ ========================= +----+--------+--------+ | 20-bit physical addr | +----+--------+--------+ Instructions were read from CS:IP (CS segment, IP register), most reads and write to data sent to DS:offset, with some exceptions. Pushes and pops to the stack went to SS:SP and reads/writes with the BP register also used the SS segment (SS:BP). The string instructions used DS:SI as the source address and ES:DI as the destination address. And you could override the default segment for a lot of instructions. So: mov ax,[bx] -- SRC address is DS:BX mov es:[bx],ax -- DEST address is ES:BX Technically, you could address as much as 256K without changing the segment registers. I got used to this, but I still preferred programming on the 6809 (8-bit CPU) and 68000. *Much* nicer architectures. -spc (And the 80386 introduced paging to this mess ... ) [1] Starting with the 80286, in proected mode, they are treated differently and no longer point to a physical address. But that's beyond the scope of *this* message. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue May 24 16:41:45 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:41:45 -0700 Subject: VAX 4000 model 500. In-Reply-To: <36d9b0fa-eb79-5e5c-eeac-48ac26e8aede@btinternet.com> References: <36d9b0fa-eb79-5e5c-eeac-48ac26e8aede@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > My main system a VAX 4000 Model 500 with a KA680 CPU has just started > halting at test 51 on power up. > > Does any body know where I can lay my hands on a spare KA680? > A month ago this one went by cheap enough on eBay at $50 that I was tempted to try to grab it just to have another spare in case I or someone else needed one some day. Too bad I passed on it. Sometimes you can find good deals on them on eBay, but of course not when you really need one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/262393891988?orig_cvip=true From scaron at diablonet.net Tue May 24 16:43:04 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 17:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > > It probably still impressed the suits when they walked the data center. > I've done data center tours with row after row of HP or Dell x86 servers > and it's not much to look at. > > -Swift > It's true, modern computers are pretty dull to look at, but you can still find some stunning views in the data center from time to time. A fair bit of what I manage is storage and I have several rows laid out such that there is basically nothing but racks of JBOD disk down all one side, or even both sides of an entire row. When my end users make the equipment sing, it's fun to switch off the lights on the floor and watch it dance. All the JBODs could be used as a crude dot matrix to spell out a phrase. I need to write a little script for that ... ;) Best, Sean From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 24 16:52:17 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > This was always the biggest pustule on the facade of x86 to me. Gate A20 > and other chicanery was nasty business. It always struck me as a hardware > hack to work around earlier bad design. to work around earlier LIMITED design. IFF 64K is reasonable for you, then x86 is excellent. If you barely need a little more (a few 64K blocks), then it is OK. (such as XenoCopy) If you really need more, then it is a PITA. Keep in mind, that it was coming into a 64K world, and wasn't intended to last much past that. If you are trying to use a 64K address processor in a multi-megabyte world, it's going to be a miserable misfit. (like trying to use an air-cooled VW bus for commercial hauling) Yeah, we use what's handy, even if it's not really suitable. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 24 16:52:21 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 17:52:21 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5744AB57.5050703@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> <5744AB57.5050703@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/24/2016 12:15 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis >> wrote: >>> Yes, but there was a trademarked name for the process that slips >>> my mind. Capable of very high densities. >> >> Multiwire? > > That sounds familiar! The last COMBOARD product, for VAX BI used a similar technology from Augat called "Unilayer" - it was a bunch of wires autorouted from the netlist and stuck together and applied as a "mat" on each side of a perfboard with plated-through holes and tacked down at each via/wire junction, then small machine pin inserts were stuffed into the vias that became the sockets. We did it because of the 10-layer requirements of VAX BI and the costs of spinning up such a thick board in the early 1990s. Augat had a VAX BI "blank" and we sent them our layout and netlist and got back a stack of boards. They were expensive, but for the size of run we did, it was cheaper than the setup costs for our own PCB, and guaranteed to be compliant in the "BI Corner" which was essential for success. We sold a few. I still have the remainder of the run. Unless one needs a 68010 with some local RAM and a Z8650 SIO as a VAX peripheral, they are mostly a curiosity. I ported our HASP and 3780 products to it, but we never had any customer demand for SNA for VAX BI, so that never happened. So if not Multiwire, perhaps Unilayer. They are similar but visibly distinguishable. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue May 24 16:54:00 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:54:00 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On May 24, 2016, at 1:29 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 22 May 2016 at 04:52, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> Because the 808x was a 16-bit processor with 1MB physical addressing. I >> would argue that for the time 808x was brilliant in that most other 16-bit >> micros only allowed for 64KB physical. > > > Er, hang on. I'm not sure if my knowledge isn't good enough or if that's a typo. > > AFAIK most *8* bits only supported 64 kB physical. Most *16* bits > (e.g. 68000, 65816, 80286, 80386SX) supported 16MB physical RAM. > > Am I missing something here? > > I always considered the 8088/8086 as a sort of hybrid 8/16-bit processor. > My definition of a CPU?s bitness is the native register width and not the bus width (or ALU width). From that definition, the 8088/8086 are 16-bit CPUs. I would certainly consider the 68K, etc to be 32-bit CPUs. The 80286 was definitely a 16-bit CPU and *any* 80386 (SX, DX, whatever) are most definitely 32-bits. Your argument would say that most of the low end IBM 360?s would be 16-bit machines which is insane. TTFN - Guy From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 24 16:54:48 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 15:54:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > It's true, modern computers are pretty dull to look at, but you can > still find some stunning views in the data center from time to time. Heh, that would be when the sales girls come walking through doing client tours on Fridays while one of us geeks is doing service under the raised floor. Stunning views. j/k ;-P > All the JBODs could be used as a crude dot matrix to spell out a phrase. > I need to write a little script for that ... ;) That reminds me of this MIT hack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnCNGNv-Fds -Swift From abs at absd.org Tue May 24 16:55:02 2016 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 22:55:02 +0100 Subject: Board swapping (was Re: General Question about UNIBUS backplanes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24 May 2016 4:45 pm, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 11:36 AM, william degnan wrote: > > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 11:17 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> B, what was the issue with the core, that you fixed it so fast? > > > > I guessed that the G114 was bad based on a hunch. > > > > I had a spare. > > Q. How do you know the guy on the side of the highway with a flat tire > is a DEC Field Service Engineer? > > A. He's swapping out all the tires to see which one is flat. > > (or from net.jokes in 1981... > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/net.jokes/GQ2B6HZIY_4 ) > > The way I heard it was: > How do you tell if a man with a flat tire is a DEC Field Service Rep? > Look in the trunk; if he's from DEC F.S. he'll have three spares with little > red tags on them and no jack. My favourite at the time was: Q: How does DEC Field Circus deal with a flat tyre? A: Swap the wheels one by one until the issue is resolved. Q: How does DEC Field Circus deal with a flat battery? A: Swap the wheels one by one until the issue is resolved. :) From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue May 24 17:01:22 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 15:01:22 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <45B1CACB-051D-410E-B281-4FBCCCA09B5C@shiresoft.com> > On May 24, 2016, at 2:32 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: >> (OB_Picky: Due to the overlap of segment and offset, on machines that had 21 >> address bits, real mode actually had a maximum of 1114096 (10FFF0h) bytes, >> instead of 1048576 (100000h). > > This was always the biggest pustule on the facade of x86 to me. Gate A20 > and other chicanery was nasty business. It always struck me as a hardware > hack to work around earlier bad design. Sure, you can eschew segmentation > and try to use multiple instructions to delivery some flat addressing, and > then your code was snail-slow. Real mode in 16 bit on x86 was/is some > fairly vulgar stuff due to segmentation (hate hate hate). Then it was made > "all better now" by protected mode and segment descriptors later *pat > pat*. Yeah. Ugh. Pleah. Ick. As someone who was there and participated in the whole A20 gate issue, I can tell you why it was there (and Intel in it?s most recent chipsets finally eliminated it). It was for SW compatibility. There was a well know piece of software (at the time?who?s name escapes me) that make use of the fact that on the 8088, addresses wrapped around at 1MB. They took great advantage of it. Unfortunately when IBM was working on the PC AT with a 80286 (with 24-bit physical addresses) the clever hack no longer worked. So we had to put in a way to emulate the wrap-around at 1MB?that was the A20 gate. The initial implementation of the A20 gate was implemented by the keyboard controller(!) because it was discovered late in the PC AT development cycle and we couldn?t add more logic to the board (but we could add some wires). TTFN - Guy From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 24 17:10:27 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 16:10:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <45B1CACB-051D-410E-B281-4FBCCCA09B5C@shiresoft.com> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> <45B1CACB-051D-410E-B281-4FBCCCA09B5C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > The initial implementation of the A20 gate was implemented by the > keyboard controller(!) because it was discovered late in the PC AT > development cycle and we couldn?t add more logic to the board (but we > could add some wires). That's very bizzare. It still makes me feel dirty just thinking about it, but it's interesting nonetheless. I wonder about some of the "clever hack" software that squeezed a tad bit more memory by dancing around/in previously reserved memory. Isn't that sort of how Quarterdeck got started ? I also remember XMS and EMS and all that fun, though the Amiga geek inside me is screaming that I shouldn't reveal that. -Swift From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue May 24 17:24:43 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 15:24:43 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> <45B1CACB-051D-410E-B281-4FBCCCA09B5C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On May 24, 2016, at 3:10 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> The initial implementation of the A20 gate was implemented by the >> keyboard controller(!) because it was discovered late in the PC AT >> development cycle and we couldn?t add more logic to the board (but we >> could add some wires). > > That's very bizzare. It still makes me feel dirty just thinking about it, > but it's interesting nonetheless. I wonder about some of the "clever hack" > software that squeezed a tad bit more memory by dancing around/in > previously reserved memory. Isn't that sort of how Quarterdeck got started > ? I also remember XMS and EMS and all that fun, though the Amiga geek > inside me is screaming that I shouldn't reveal that. > No it was to allow accessing memory without having to reload a segment register. It was a space and performance optimization. There was no additional memory. As I recall, SW needed to access something in the BIOS ROM(s) and also the contents of low memory. Normally, that would have involved reloading a segment register (and restoring it when done) but by organizing the code properly and setting the segment registers it was possible to access both the low *and* high regions without reloading a segment register. That is, put a large value in the segment register and when you wanted to access low memory, use a large offset. When you wanted to access high memory, use a small offset. You could access 32KB of high and 32KB of low without reloading a segment register (or any particular split you wanted). These are the sort of ?tricks? that most people don?t think much about when dealing with multi-GB memory environments. There are still cases where every byte (and cycle) count and doing these sorts of ?tricks? is what determines if the product is doable or not. TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 24 17:44:37 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 15:44:37 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5744C5D9.9030808@gmail.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5744C5D9.9030808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5744D955.3000109@sydex.com> On 05/24/2016 02:21 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > The CROS cards used in a 360/30 where the same size as an 80 column > card on purpose so you could you a keypunch machine to program the > microcode. But I believe that the CROS cards were mylar, no? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 24 17:56:25 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 15:56:25 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> <5744AB57.5050703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5744DC19.1070907@sydex.com> On 05/24/2016 02:52 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So if not Multiwire, perhaps Unilayer. They are similar but visibly > distinguishable. Hitachi Chemical still seems to be active in this area: http://www.hitachi-chemical.com/products_pwb_05.htm --Chuck From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue May 24 18:03:16 2016 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 23:03:16 +0000 Subject: VAX-11/730 and Emulex UC17 woes In-Reply-To: References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062999665C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299966B2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062999674A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 2:15 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VAX-11/730 and Emulex UC17 woes > > On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Josh Dersch > wrote: > > > Interesting, the UC17 has the same firmware version (G143R) on the label > of the EPROM. I wonder if the contents are identical. Could you send me a > dump of your ROM so I can compare? > > > >> > >> I dumped the memory for this code from the VAX and entered it into > >> SIMH to use SIMH as an VAX unassembler and this is what it looks like. > >> If the UC17 host resident VAX code is the same, any clues here as to > >> what might be causing a halt on the 11/730? > > Here's what I found comparing my code with someone else's dump: > > I've been working this with Glen Slick. Here's a snippet of a recent email with > him. He provided a dump of the DMAed loader from his UC07: > > The raw binary dumped on the VAX looked like this: > > > Thanks. Glen sent me his dump and I compared with mine. I have the same three differences: D 000002A0 01200880 // 0100F308 D 000002BC 0014688F // FFF4688F D 000002C0 65B45520 // 65B45500 (commented values are the ones that differ on my machine). This changes the code as below: -> 298: MOVL #80000002,@#F30808 (was: 298: MOVL #80000002,@#20088008) 2A3: NOP 2A4: MTPR #1F,#12 2A7: MOVAL 400,R1 2AE: MOVL #200,R2 2B5: MOVL #0,(R1)+ 2B8: SOBGTR R2,2B5 -> 2BB: MOVL #FFF468,R5 (was 2BB: MOVL #20001468,R5) I suspect these values are changed "on the fly" based on the machine type punched into the SA register as the last step before the "S 80" command; in particular, the source address for the MOVL instruction at 2BB now makes more sense, corresponding to a value in the UBA register set for the UC17. However, F30808 doesn't make sense as the destination argument address for the MOVL at 298. This looks like a map register for an 11/750 (as documented in the UC17 manual as being at F30800/F30804) and I wondered if it should be similar to the value for the 11/730 (F26800/F26804). So I changed the instruction at 298 to: MOVL #80000002,@#F26808 (which corresponds to a change in the value at 2A0 to 0100F268) On the VAX-11/730 and did an "S 80" and lo and behold, it works! I suspect either a typo in the manual for the machine type designator word, or a revision difference between firmware and documentation. - Josh From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue May 24 18:03:21 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:03:21 -0300 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5744D955.3000109@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5744C5D9.9030808@gmail.com> <5744D955.3000109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5744DDB9.4080007@gmail.com> On 2016-05-24 7:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/24/2016 02:21 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > >> The CROS cards used in a 360/30 where the same size as an 80 column >> card on purpose so you could you a keypunch machine to program the >> microcode. > But I believe that the CROS cards were mylar, no? > > --Chuck > Yes mylar with copper tracks keypunch was used to cut tracks as required. Paul From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue May 24 18:07:04 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 11:07:04 +1200 Subject: VAX-11/730 and Emulex UC17 woes In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062999674A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062999665C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299966B2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062999674A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: *another snip* > Thanks. Glen sent me his dump and I compared with mine. I have the same three differences: > > D 000002A0 01200880 // 0100F308 > D 000002BC 0014688F // FFF4688F > D 000002C0 65B45520 // 65B45500 > > (commented values are the ones that differ on my machine). > > This changes the code as below: > > -> 298: MOVL #80000002,@#F30808 (was: 298: MOVL #80000002,@#20088008) > 2A3: NOP > 2A4: MTPR #1F,#12 > 2A7: MOVAL 400,R1 > 2AE: MOVL #200,R2 > 2B5: MOVL #0,(R1)+ > 2B8: SOBGTR R2,2B5 > -> 2BB: MOVL #FFF468,R5 (was 2BB: MOVL #20001468,R5) > > I suspect these values are changed "on the fly" based on the machine type punched into the SA register as the last step before the "S 80" command; in particular, the source address for the MOVL instruction at 2BB now makes more sense, corresponding to a value in the UBA register set for the UC17. > > However, F30808 doesn't make sense as the destination argument address for the MOVL at 298. This looks like a map register for an 11/750 (as documented in the UC17 manual as being at F30800/F30804) and I wondered if it should be similar to the value for the 11/730 (F26800/F26804). > > So I changed the instruction at 298 to: > > MOVL #80000002,@#F26808 > > (which corresponds to a change in the value at 2A0 to 0100F268) > > On the VAX-11/730 and did an "S 80" and lo and behold, it works! Ooooh! I'll have to try that! Thanks. Great sleuthing! Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue May 24 18:18:08 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 16:18:08 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 9:44 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: > > "Older machines" covers a lot of ground..... > > Sorry, I should have said "machines from the 50's - 70's which used > buttons, toggles, rockers or other switches on the front panel" > > > Typically, there was a set of data switches (0/1 toggles) that could be > > set to an address or data value, and a set of command switches > > (momentary contact) that copied the data switches to some data register > > or memory. > > Did some of the machines have blinkenlights to show you what you were > doing so you could see the values you were inputting? Judging from how I > play guitar, I'd probably miskey and have to start all over etc... > Hah. Video of some toggling in a bootstrap... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIsZVqhaneo > > > The 709 had these massively over-engineered rocker switches, reminiscent > > of circuit breakers, and a reset switch which activated a electric motor > > in the console which physically set the switches back to 0. > > Heh, that sounds cool. Could you hear the motor running after hitting the > switch to activate it? > > Oh yes. *whir* *CLUNK* -- Charles From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 24 19:30:10 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 18:30:10 -0600 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <8807572B-2A6B-4F58-B8F9-9303B826615F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <8FAC2DCE-4DCC-4222-A69D-4E6AA2D66AD8@cs.ubc.ca> <8807572B-2A6B-4F58-B8F9-9303B826615F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Yes, I examined this in some detail last year after mention on the list, and wrote it up: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/corerope/index.html That's a great write-up! Thanks! I'm not sure about how IBM TROS was driven, but the core-rope memory I've examined was not from an AGC and didn't use the switching core technique, so I wouldn't consider that decode technique to be an inherent property of core rope memory, although it's certainly clever. The core rope memory I examined had 64 words. Of the six address lines, three fed a three-to-eight decoder with high-side drivers, and the other three fed a three-to-eight decoder with low-side drivers. Each of the 64 word drive lines was wired between a unqiue pair of high-side and low-side drivers. That required significantly less circuitry than a single-ended six-to-64 decoder. The same technique was used for the X drive and Y drive of "normal" core memory, such as the PDP-1 drivers for the Fabritek 4K planes in the PDP-1 at CHM. (There was an earlier model of PDP-1 core memory that might have used a different drive scheme.) The X drive used one pair of eight each high and low side drivers, and the Y drive used another such pair. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue May 24 19:30:47 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 01:30:47 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000 model 500. In-Reply-To: References: <36d9b0fa-eb79-5e5c-eeac-48ac26e8aede@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <4fada513-dee7-89b8-59c6-247019c4bb8b@btinternet.com> On 24/05/2016 22:41, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: >> Hi >> >> My main system a VAX 4000 Model 500 with a KA680 CPU has just started >> halting at test 51 on power up. >> >> Does any body know where I can lay my hands on a spare KA680? >> > A month ago this one went by cheap enough on eBay at $50 that I was > tempted to try to grab it just to have another spare in case I or > someone else needed one some day. Too bad I passed on it. Sometimes > you can find good deals on them on eBay, but of course not when you > really need one. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262393891988?orig_cvip=true I had a look at his shop. The matching memory card is still there. It was ever thus "When you want one you cant find one and when you don't there it is" Oh well switching to backup (4000-300) Rod From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 24 19:48:45 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:48:45 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <8FAC2DCE-4DCC-4222-A69D-4E6AA2D66AD8@cs.ubc.ca> <8807572B-2A6B-4F58-B8F9-9303B826615F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > On May 24, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Yes, I examined this in some detail last year after mention on the list, and wrote it up: >> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/corerope/index.html > > That's a great write-up! Thanks! Agreed! I'm going to have to study the training manual for the EL-X1 in more detail, because it describes how its ROM core memory works, and it doesn't seem to be an exact match of either of the ones in Brent's document. Since it goes back to 1958 it seems to be the oldest example, so it's worth digging out the details. paul From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 24 20:08:37 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 18:08:37 -0700 Subject: Using a Commodore 1541 drive with a PC via USB Message-ID: <93f98e64-3f8b-a482-de6b-e99469e3bb43@jwsss.com> A fellow has made up a nice adapter to read and write Commodore disks on a PC via USB using a 1541 drive. The thing that jumped out at me is that this is a 5 1/4" drive that reads and writes via USB. Anyone want to comment on whether the floppies it accesses would be useful other than on the C64? Could one do say 360K floppies via this hardware for other than the Commodore? At least part of the work is done to do more than just archival like Catweasel, et. al. do, in that it can also write. XU1541-interface-connect-your-C-drive-to-PC-enclosed-version-NEW/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/322092922596 Thanks Jim From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue May 24 20:30:08 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 22:30:08 -0300 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <8FAC2DCE-4DCC-4222-A69D-4E6AA2D66AD8@cs.ubc.ca> <8807572B-2A6B-4F58-B8F9-9303B826615F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <57450020.5010806@gmail.com> On 2016-05-24 9:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Yes, I examined this in some detail last year after mention on the list, and wrote it up: >> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/corerope/index.html > That's a great write-up! Thanks! > > I'm not sure about how IBM TROS was driven, but the core-rope memory > I've examined was not from an AGC and didn't use the switching core > technique, so I wouldn't consider that decode technique to be an > inherent property of core rope memory, although it's certainly clever. > IBM TROS see United States Patent US3432830, If you have access to old issues of the IBM Journal of Research and Development there is apparently an article in the September 1964 issue. Other control stores used in early 360s was BCROS this is a capacitive memory using 2 capacitors for every bit, this is not the design used in the 360/30 but was used in higher end machines because it was faster. There is an article describing this control store in IBM Journal of Research and Development July 1968. The 360/30 used what is called CCROS it is described in a March 1966 IBM Journal of Research and Development IBM Journal of Research and Development scans are available on IEEE Explorer. There is also a breifer description of all three in the book "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems" beginning on page 210. Paul From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 24 20:37:08 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:37:08 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <574501C4.1000004@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 11:54 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Oh and here is a replica of an Apollo launch computer with > a component LED display like I was mentioning: > http://i.imgur.com/bbXZVcx.jpg ... probably too expensive > to embed in a computer system, but still hard to beat for > geek aesthetics. -Swift That's actually just the DSKY (display keyboard), the computer was about the size of 2 shoeboxes. The DSKY was actually quite small, about 5 x 6", I think. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 24 20:41:51 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:41:51 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <574502DF.7040302@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 11:56 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Jon Elson wrote: >> The early PDP-11s had a diode matrix ROM for the boot memory. You could >> change the boot code with a wire cutter and soldering iron. > Is that similar to "wire wrap" ? I remember my grandmother talking about > having to snip wires connected to diodes. I think this was in the 50's but > it might have been the 60's, too. She mentioned something like that. > > -Swift > > Here's some wire-wrap. And, yes, you did need to change the wire wrapping on some systems to configure different options. http://pico-systems.com/stories/1982.html But, the DEC diode ROM boards were printed circuit boards with a matrix of diodes diagonally connecting between vertical traces (on one side of the board) and horizontal on the other. Diodes were removed to change zeroes to ones. (or vice versa.) Here's a homebrew one: http://www.wintergroundfairlands.com/2013/10/visualizing-roms-1-diode-matrix-rom.html Jon From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 24 20:43:57 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 18:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using a Commodore 1541 drive with a PC via USB In-Reply-To: <93f98e64-3f8b-a482-de6b-e99469e3bb43@jwsss.com> from jwsmobile at "May 24, 16 06:08:37 pm" Message-ID: <201605250143.u4P1hvji63309532@floodgap.com> > A fellow has made up a nice adapter to read and write Commodore disks on > a PC via USB using a 1541 drive. > > The thing that jumped out at me is that this is a 5 1/4" drive that > reads and writes via USB. Anyone want to comment on whether the > floppies it accesses would be useful other than on the C64? > Could one do say 360K floppies via this hardware for other than the > Commodore? At least part of the work is done to do more than just > archival like Catweasel, et. al. do, in that it can also write. The X*1541 cables (this would be an xum1541) still talk to the drives at a relatively high level, since the 1541/71/81 family are all intelligent peripherals. So: For the 1541, which is strictly Commodore GCR, no. For the 1571, which can do a variety of MFM formats, maybe, but I'm not aware that OpenCBM supports that. On the other hand, since it's MFM, you could easily just use something else. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Diamonds are forever. ------------------------------------------------------ From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 24 20:49:06 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:49:06 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <8B7185A7-BC72-41C7-87BD-FEFA970234C3@comcast.net> References: <8B7185A7-BC72-41C7-87BD-FEFA970234C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <57450492.5090400@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 12:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > A couple of observations. > > Taking the PDP-11 as a fairly typical example, the switches are "data" and "address". While running, the data switches were visible to the software, and could do something if you wanted to (typically this wasn't done). Actually, all PDP-11s I used had one set of switches, that could be used for address or data, as appropriate to the operation. So, the load address switch would load the address with 18, 22 or whatever address width that model had. Otherwise, all operations only used the lower 16 switches. The data switches were readable as one I/O register. When you read it, it reported the switches. When you wrote to it, some models could display it on the panel. These were used in some diagnostic programs. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 24 21:02:12 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 21:02:12 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> Message-ID: <574507A4.3080300@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 01:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 5/24/16 10:44 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> There was also automated "stapled wire". I forget the name for the process. >> > stitch wire > > you spot weld to a socket post > > > No, there was another system made by AMP. The backplane connectors had rectangular posts, about .030 x .050" or something. You had rolls of stranded wire, maybe about 26 Gauge. There was a "gun" that had a roll of little metal clip (or maybe it was a stick-like magazine) that wrapped almost completely around the posts. So, you stuck the end of the wire into a notch in the gun and pressed the gun down onto the post and squeezed the grip. A mechanism would break the clip off the strip or roll and push it down onto the post, shearing the insulation off the wire and trapping it against the post. it was actually faster than wire-wrap. I think there was a way to do bussed wiring with it, so you just made a little loop of wire and went snap-snap-snap over the rows of posts. You could put 4 or 5 wires on a post easily, too. There was a special tool that would hook the clip and pull it off, when changes were needed. I also can't remember the name of this system. A big piece of gear, two or 3 relay racks full of boards, was built using this at a VERY prior place of employment, so that was in 1969. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 24 21:05:46 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 21:05:46 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 02:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I seem to recall that reworking the 360/30 > microprogramming was preferred by tinkerers over the > 360/40 was primarily that CROS was easier to work with > than TROS. I don't recall what the RCA Spectrolas used. And the 360/25 had all writeable control store. The control store was just the top 16 KB of main core memory! To change emulators, restore from a microprogram crash, etc. you loaded the emulator from a card deck! Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 24 21:09:38 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 21:09:38 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57450962.2060101@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 02:15 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yes, but there was a trademarked name for the process that slips my >> mind. Capable of very high densities. > > Multiwire? > No, multiwire is a process where lots of wires are laid down on a PC board coated in uncured epoxy. When all the wires are in place, the epoxy is cured in an oven. Then, the board is CNC drilled, and the through-holes are plated. The wires are what is normally called "magnet wire" with an enamel coating, so they don't short to each other. Drilling through the wires leaves the end bare copper, so the plating process connects to all wires that pass across where the hole is drilled. It is quite amazing that it works at all! The one downside is that rework of the boards, as in replacing chips, is a VERY delicate operation. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 24 21:18:04 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 21:18:04 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <0C727C58-74E6-431C-AE78-05F81BA55B54@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> <0C727C58-74E6-431C-AE78-05F81BA55B54@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <57450B5C.3050107@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 02:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-May-24, at 12:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 05/24/2016 11:22 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> On 5/24/16 10:44 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>>> There was also automated "stapled wire". I forget the name for the >>>> process. >>> stitch wire >>> >>> you spot weld to a socket post >> Yes, but there was a trademarked name for the process that slips my >> mind. Capable of very high densities. > > I've wondered what the trade name for this was: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/pics/large/crimps.jpg > > Mid-late 60s usage but I've never heard a name for it. > Note the posts are not square - they're not standard wire-wrap posts with a different connector. > > YUP!!! THAT'S IT! Even the wires are yellow, as I remember them! The system was made by AMP. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 24 21:29:53 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 19:29:53 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> On 05/24/2016 07:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > And the 360/25 had all writeable control store. The control store > was just the top 16 KB of main core memory! To change emulators, > restore from a microprogram crash, etc. you loaded the emulator from > a card deck! Yes, a neat little machine, not at all like the brain-dead model 20. Too bad that it came along much later--it would have been fun to fool with. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 24 21:36:55 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 21:36:55 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5744D955.3000109@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5744C5D9.9030808@gmail.com> <5744D955.3000109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57450FC7.1030301@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 05:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/24/2016 02:21 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > >> The CROS cards used in a 360/30 where the same size as an 80 column >> card on purpose so you could you a keypunch machine to program the >> microcode. > But I believe that the CROS cards were mylar, no? > > On the 360/30, there were 12 word lines printed in silver ink on one side of a .003" thick Mylar card, and bit line boards, with traces running at right angles to the word lines. There were 60 bit lines per board/card. The word lines had 60 little "pads" hanging below them, and these were at the exact location of the holes in standard IBM punch cards. So, if you punched out the pad, one of the capacitor plates would be missing. If the pad was not punched out, then it formed a capacitor between the word line and the bit line. Air bladders applied even pressure to the stack of mylar card and bit line board. With only 12 words/card, it took quite a lot of them to hold the full microcode. On the 360/50 and /65, the data pattern was etched into a bunch of wiggly traces. For each word, there was a driven line and a balance line. If the driven line was wide across from the 1's bit line pad, you got a 1 in the control store bit. if the non-driven line was wide across from the 1's bit line pad, you got a zero. The mylar sheet was not punched, so changing the microcode required replacing a whole bunch of etched circuit boards. Jon From pye at mactec.com.au Tue May 24 22:39:41 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 13:39:41 +1000 Subject: HP Visualize B132 PA-RISC workstation FREE for pickup BNE Australia Message-ID: <625E1BFD-7795-4793-90CA-A5B81B0032C5@mactec.com.au> Worked a couple of years ago, but now won?t power up. Chris From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 24 22:47:40 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 21:47:40 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <49d716db-8b8a-c9a3-7580-9f87c3d8534c@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/24/2016 3:32 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: >> (OB_Picky: Due to the overlap of segment and offset, on machines that had 21 >> address bits, real mode actually had a maximum of 1114096 (10FFF0h) bytes, >> instead of 1048576 (100000h). > > This was always the biggest pustule on the facade of x86 to me. Gate A20 > and other chicanery was nasty business. It always struck me as a hardware > hack to work around earlier bad design. Sure, you can eschew segmentation > and try to use multiple instructions to delivery some flat addressing, and > then your code was snail-slow. Real mode in 16 bit on x86 was/is some > fairly vulgar stuff due to segmentation (hate hate hate). Then it was made > "all better now" by protected mode and segment descriptors later *pat > pat*. Yeah. Ugh. Pleah. Ick. I think Windows made it big because they could handle the flat 386 model and dos did not. > All that fun sent me running into the arms of the M68k and it's git, and > later MIPS (queue hallelujah chrous from the clouds). I'm not a MIPS god > (we have a some here), but much love and respect to the architecture > nonetheless. I know enough to know "that's the good stuff". Nowadays I > wonder, since I'm using flat memory on the Unix boxes I code in (now > pretty much just in C, I haven't done ASM in a long while), what kind of > masochist maintains the SLAB/SLUB allocators for x86 Unix variants these > days. I want to buy them a six pack, pat them on the back, and say "you're > a braver man than, I." I never could buy the RISC argument of being a faster design. Data access to main memory is allays what slows a system down. > -Swift Still playing around with TTL macros with Altera FPGA here, planning mid 1970's TTL CPU. The cleanest version so far is 2 -16 LS bit ALU boards and 1 control card. This gives me a CPU with 2 sizes of data - BYTE and WORD and a WHOPPING 5 registers. PC, AC1 , AC2 , INDEX , STACK. No risc here, just a simple CPU. Ben. PS: NO blinking lights sadly. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 24 22:48:14 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 22:48:14 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5745207E.2090007@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 09:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/24/2016 07:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> And the 360/25 had all writeable control store. The control store >> was just the top 16 KB of main core memory! To change emulators, >> restore from a microprogram crash, etc. you loaded the emulator from >> a card deck! > Yes, a neat little machine, not at all like the brain-dead model 20. > Too bad that it came along much later--it would have been fun to fool with. > For sure! The 360/30 was an 8 BIT machine, 8-bit memory, 8-bit data paths, etc. Really hobbled the performance, and restricted the peripherals that could be attached. The models /22 and /25 had 16-bit memory and data paths. Jon From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue May 24 23:45:47 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 23:45:47 -0500 Subject: Using a Commodore 1541 drive with a PC via USB In-Reply-To: <201605250143.u4P1hvji63309532@floodgap.com> References: <93f98e64-3f8b-a482-de6b-e99469e3bb43@jwsss.com> <201605250143.u4P1hvji63309532@floodgap.com> Message-ID: The USB-to-1541 interface is really no different than the parport-to-1541 interfaces, other than they use different hardware-level drivers to talk to the C= 1541. All of the later CBM floppy drives are (as mentioned) "intelligent peripherals". They are nothing short of computerized appliances, controlled via the CBM IEC serial buss. Your average C= 1541 has the equivalent compute power of a VIC-20.. but dedicated to floppy drive control and access. It may, in fact, be possible - with custom ROMs - to use the 1541 for other formats. But it's telling that no one, so far as I know, has ever managed to create software to 'tween the various 5-1/4" floppy formats, using the 1541 transport & hardware. On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > A fellow has made up a nice adapter to read and write Commodore disks on > > a PC via USB using a 1541 drive. > > > > The thing that jumped out at me is that this is a 5 1/4" drive that > > reads and writes via USB. Anyone want to comment on whether the > > floppies it accesses would be useful other than on the C64? > > Could one do say 360K floppies via this hardware for other than the > > Commodore? At least part of the work is done to do more than just > > archival like Catweasel, et. al. do, in that it can also write. > > The X*1541 cables (this would be an xum1541) still talk to the drives at a > relatively high level, since the 1541/71/81 family are all intelligent > peripherals. So: > > For the 1541, which is strictly Commodore GCR, no. > > For the 1571, which can do a variety of MFM formats, maybe, but I'm not > aware that OpenCBM supports that. On the other hand, since it's MFM, you > could easily just use something else. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Diamonds are forever. > ------------------------------------------------------ > From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 24 23:47:08 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 21:47:08 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5745207E.2090007@pico-systems.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> <5745207E.2090007@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57452E4C.9090706@sydex.com> On 05/24/2016 08:48 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > For sure! The 360/30 was an 8 BIT machine, 8-bit memory, 8-bit data > paths, etc. Really hobbled the performance, and restricted the > peripherals that could be attached. The models /22 and /25 had 16-bit > memory and data paths. Do you mean the 360/20? On the topic, were the 20 and 40 the only members of System 360 to use TROS? I remember picking up the programming manual for a Model 20 and realizing that I'd essentially have to re-learn programming. 16 bit registers, stripped-down instruction set, no I/O channels, "substitute" instructions for regular 360 fare. A really strange thing was that the 1130 came out *after* the 360/20. --Chuck From dojoe at dojoe.net Tue May 24 16:25:15 2016 From: dojoe at dojoe.net (Joachim Fenkes) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 23:25:15 +0200 Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( In-Reply-To: <005201d1b5c8$26a6b040$73f410c0$@bigpond.com> References: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> <20160522194941.GA4588@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <005201d1b5c8$26a6b040$73f410c0$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <46550d34-759c-77e0-7c96-b7496129219a@dojoe.net> On 24.05.2016 16:25, David Collins wrote: > Here are the binaries for all the EPROMs on processor PCA for my 7596A. Wow, that was really quick, thank you so much! > The > PCA part number is 07595-60100 and is different from the one in the manual > which is a 07595-60200 so I assume my PCA is older than the one in the > manual. Judging by your photos and the ones I made last time I had the plotter open, I'm pretty sure that's the same PCA ours has. > 07595-18097 U28 > 07595-18098 U37 Our plotter only had these two sockets populated. The two ROMs contain the even/odd bytes of a 128K image. I combined them and compared them to the dump we took of our broken ROMs (with lots of bit errors), and they seem to be structured very similarly, so this might well be a later version of the same firmware. > Unknown U27 - no part number label > Unknown U36 - no part number label These are mostly empty and I couldn't find any recognizable strings in there. Might be additional machine code as the U28/U37 ROMs are pretty chock full. The 17225-* ROMs don't look like firmware, but seem to contain several demo plots, maybe for exhibition purposes? > Binaries for each chip are attached. All are 27512 EPROMs. Nice, we even have a few of those in our parts collection \o/ I hope I'll find time this weekend to burn and plug them and give them a test run. > I have also included photos of the PCA and the EPROMs in position. Hope > that helps. Yes, very much, thanks again! All the best Joachim From lars at nocrew.org Wed May 25 01:01:34 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 08:01:34 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160524211914.GC26326@brevard.conman.org> (Sean Conner's message of "Tue, 24 May 2016 17:19:14 -0400") References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> <20160524211914.GC26326@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <86h9dmhe0x.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Sean Conner writes: > From a hardware perspective, the 68000 had a 16-bit bus and 24 > physical address lines Actually 23 address lines to select a 16-bit word in memory, plus UDS and LDS to select upper byte/lower byte/word. From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed May 25 02:17:10 2016 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Veit, Holger) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 09:17:10 +0200 Subject: Using a Commodore 1541 drive with a PC via USB In-Reply-To: References: <93f98e64-3f8b-a482-de6b-e99469e3bb43@jwsss.com> <201605250143.u4P1hvji63309532@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <0556d9ac-2d87-29c9-4de6-59838d132dc4@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 25.05.2016 um 06:45 schrieb drlegendre .: > It may, in fact, be possible - with custom ROMs - to use the 1541 for other > formats. But it's telling that no one, so far as I know, has ever managed > to create software to 'tween the various 5-1/4" floppy formats, using the > 1541 transport & hardware. The 1570/71/81 drives have a dedicated WD controller chip for the compatible MFM formats. I doubt that even with a custom ROM it would be possible to cleanly bit-bang MFM instead of GCR to the data/clock port to the drive. With the GCR encoding home-grown by Commodore there were no tight restrictions to the data rates that are enforced by IBM compatible formats; they could invent any rate their hard- and software could manage. Holger > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Cameron Kaiser > wrote: >>> A fellow has made up a nice adapter to read and write Commodore disks on >>> a PC via USB using a 1541 drive. >>> >>> The thing that jumped out at me is that this is a 5 1/4" drive that >>> reads and writes via USB. Anyone want to comment on whether the >>> floppies it accesses would be useful other than on the C64? >>> Could one do say 360K floppies via this hardware for other than the >>> Commodore? At least part of the work is done to do more than just >>> archival like Catweasel, et. al. do, in that it can also write. >> The X*1541 cables (this would be an xum1541) still talk to the drives at a >> relatively high level, since the 1541/71/81 family are all intelligent >> peripherals. So: >> >> For the 1541, which is strictly Commodore GCR, no. >> >> For the 1571, which can do a variety of MFM formats, maybe, but I'm not >> aware that OpenCBM supports that. On the other hand, since it's MFM, you >> could easily just use something else. >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------ personal: >> http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- >> Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * >> ckaiser at floodgap.com >> -- Diamonds are forever. >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> From tingox at gmail.com Wed May 25 05:37:21 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 12:37:21 +0200 Subject: Using a Commodore 1541 drive with a PC via USB In-Reply-To: <93f98e64-3f8b-a482-de6b-e99469e3bb43@jwsss.com> References: <93f98e64-3f8b-a482-de6b-e99469e3bb43@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 3:08 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > XU1541-interface-connect-your-C-drive-to-PC-enclosed-version-NEW/ > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/322092922596 Also note that other such adapters exists, the zoomFloppy being one eaxmple: http://store.go4retro.com/zoomfloppy/ If you connect the right drive to it (a 1571), you can possibly write some other foirmats than Commdore's, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_1571 Depending on what formats OpenCBM supports, of course. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed May 25 06:06:24 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 12:06:24 +0100 Subject: IBM1130 (was RE: Front panel switches - what did they do?) Message-ID: <05d301d1b675$7b0d40b0$7127c210$@gmail.com> paths. > > Do you mean the 360/20? On the topic, were the 20 and 40 the only members > of System 360 to use TROS? > > I remember picking up the programming manual for a Model 20 and realizing > that I'd essentially have to re-learn programming. 16 bit registers, stripped- > down instruction set, no I/O channels, "substitute" > instructions for regular 360 fare. > > A really strange thing was that the 1130 came out *after* the 360/20. > I am not sure why IBM produced an in-compatible machine so soon after 360 was announced, but it was sold in a completely different way to a new and emerging market. It was billed as the cheapest computer IBM had ever offered. The announcement letter here:- https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/1130/1130_initial.html is dated almost exactly one month before DEC announced the PDP-8 and I am sure targets the same markets DEC did. You just wonder if IBM had spies in DEC, or more likely they both spotted a marketing opportunity. It is also interesting to note a "typical" configuration was priced at almost twice that of the PDP-8.. (assuming Wikipedia is right) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-8 I don't have any links but I know in the UK IBM1130's were used on ships by the Institute of Oceanographic Sciences but I can't find any reference to that on-line. I was told that they had great trouble getting the IBM engineers who worked on it that a suite was not suitable dress for a small research vessel. Dave G4UGM > --Chuck > > Dave G4UGM From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed May 25 07:39:19 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 08:39:19 -0400 Subject: Question about UNIBUS terminators, M9300 Message-ID: I have an M9300 bus terminator which I read is the same as a M930 with the NPR logic (so you don't also need an NPR terminator in slot 3/4). I don't want to blow anything up, but I am thinking I can replace the M930 and G7273 in the last slot of my backplane with a W2-open M9300. I have discovered past threads in CCTECH about this card, comes up every so often. There are jumpers on this card. W1, W2, W. I did not find any specific examples online of scenarios for the jumpers so I have a question of confirmation to my understanding: I think I get why one would remove the W2 jumper but if W1 is removed (open) instead can someone give me an example scenario for when you'd want to use this card "for beginning of non processor bus termination". Can someone give me an example of when you'd do this? Something to do with expansion cabinets? b -- From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Wed May 25 08:36:24 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 14:36:24 +0100 Subject: BBC Tube... Running UNIX? Message-ID: <877fei45uv.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> I just revisited the Wikipedia page for the BBC Micro Tube [1]. Apparently with a 32bit NS320 processor it was possible to run some variant of UNIX? Does anyone know anything about this? I'd be very interested in experimenting with it, if it is true. Thanks, Aaron [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_(BBC_Micro) From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 25 08:45:07 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 09:45:07 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <57450492.5090400@pico-systems.com> References: <8B7185A7-BC72-41C7-87BD-FEFA970234C3@comcast.net> <57450492.5090400@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On May 24, 2016, at 9:49 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 05/24/2016 12:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> A couple of observations. >> >> Taking the PDP-11 as a fairly typical example, the switches are "data" and "address". While running, the data switches were visible to the software, and could do something if you wanted to (typically this wasn't done). > Actually, all PDP-11s I used had one set of switches, that could be used for address or data, as appropriate to the operation. Oops, of course, you're correct. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 25 08:50:36 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 09:50:36 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <047A4DD1-8502-40D6-B90C-D6AF514F7DE6@comcast.net> > On May 24, 2016, at 10:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 05/24/2016 02:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I seem to recall that reworking the 360/30 microprogramming was preferred by tinkerers over the 360/40 was primarily that CROS was easier to work with than TROS. I don't recall what the RCA Spectrolas used. > And the 360/25 had all writeable control store. The control store was just the top 16 KB of main core memory! To change emulators, restore from a microprogram crash, etc. you loaded the emulator from a card deck! The 360 model 44, with the emulation option, is somewhat similar. The base machine had a trimmed down instruction set, shades of microVAX: no decimal or string operations. So you could not run OS/360. Instead, you had to run PS/44 (or some such name). Alternatively, you could get the emulation option. That added some extra memory and an emulation mode, where reserved instructions would trap to the emulator and get emulated there. So now you could run OS/360, and PL/I or COBOL applications (albeit quite slowly). The emulator was loaded, on those rare occasions where the memory got wiped, using the "Emulator IPL" button, from a binary card deck. That deck was pretty slick: it was a channel program loop. No CPU code involved at all; the first card was a 4 (?) entry channel program that would read the remaining cards, which were a standard assembler output (object deck). Self modifying channel code: since each object card contained the address and length for its data, the channel program would pick up those two fields and drop them into the third channel command, which would transfer that number of bytes to that address. paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed May 25 08:50:48 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 09:50:48 -0400 Subject: IBM1130 (was RE: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <05d301d1b675$7b0d40b0$7127c210$@gmail.com> References: <05d301d1b675$7b0d40b0$7127c210$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2016-05-25 7:06 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > paths. >> >> Do you mean the 360/20? On the topic, were the 20 and 40 the only members >> of System 360 to use TROS? >> >> I remember picking up the programming manual for a Model 20 and realizing >> that I'd essentially have to re-learn programming. 16 bit registers, stripped- >> down instruction set, no I/O channels, "substitute" >> instructions for regular 360 fare. >> >> A really strange thing was that the 1130 came out *after* the 360/20. >> > > I am not sure why IBM produced an in-compatible machine so soon after 360 was announced, but it was sold in a completely different way to a new and emerging market. The book cited earlier by Paul Berger, "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems"[1], might give some of the reasoning here. It does have a lot of discussion about how the competing lines were resolved. I just finished reading it but I don't recall whether it addresses this specific point. --Toby [1] https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/ibms-360-and-early-370-systems > It was billed as the cheapest computer IBM had ever offered. The announcement letter here:- > > https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/1130/1130_initial.html > > is dated almost exactly one month before DEC announced the PDP-8 and I am sure targets the same markets DEC did. You just wonder if IBM had spies in DEC, or more likely they both spotted a marketing opportunity. It is also interesting to note a "typical" configuration was priced at almost twice that of the PDP-8.. (assuming Wikipedia is right) > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-8 > > I don't have any links but I know in the UK IBM1130's were used on ships by the Institute of Oceanographic Sciences but I can't find any reference to that on-line. I was told that they had great trouble getting the IBM engineers who worked on it that a suite was not suitable dress for a small research vessel. > > Dave > G4UGM > > >> --Chuck >> >> > Dave > G4UGM > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 25 08:51:52 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 09:51:52 -0400 Subject: IBM1130 (was RE: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <05d301d1b675$7b0d40b0$7127c210$@gmail.com> References: <05d301d1b675$7b0d40b0$7127c210$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > is dated almost exactly one month before DEC announced the PDP-8 and I am sure targets the same markets DEC did. You just wonder if IBM had spies in DEC, or more likely they both spotted a marketing opportunity. The latter. Every company in the world seems to have explored the minicomputer market in the 1960s. Also, IBM was already in the minicomputer market with the 1620 from a few years before. That machine clearly was getting outclassed by the mid-1960s, and needed replacing. -- Will From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed May 25 09:56:53 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 07:56:53 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <047A4DD1-8502-40D6-B90C-D6AF514F7DE6@comcast.net> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <047A4DD1-8502-40D6-B90C-D6AF514F7DE6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 6:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > The emulator was loaded, on those rare occasions where the memory got > wiped, using the "Emulator IPL" button, from a binary card deck. That deck > was pretty slick: it was a channel program loop. No CPU code involved at > all; the first card was a 4 (?) entry channel program that would read the > remaining cards, which were a standard assembler output (object deck). > Self modifying channel code: since each object card contained the address > and length for its data, the channel program would pick up those two fields > and drop them into the third channel command, which would transfer that > number of bytes to that address. > > The DPS8 bootload was similar -- channel code to read a record from tape into memory. The record was placed in memory such that it overwrote the interrupt vector (actually fault pair), so that when the read completed and the tape drive raised the interrupt, the CPU jumped into the data just read. -- Charles From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 25 10:28:54 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 08:28:54 -0700 Subject: Tek 4405/4406 Message-ID: Things went well reading the floppies. Everything should be uploaded by noon PDT. There were bits of the system and smalltalk for the 4405/6, so it would be nice if someone might have one of these to dump the firmware, though there probably isn't enought to boot one. checked with http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~pmaydell/hardware/ramoth/ about the 4406 he had, but it's long gone. maybe someone on the list here got it. few interesting links FTR http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/1998-January/0399.html archived from here mentions a 441x line that ran uTek, that I never heard of and http://www.wirfs-brock.com/allen/things/smalltalk-things/tektronix-smalltalk-document-archive the history of the machines From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 25 10:34:01 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 08:34:01 -0700 Subject: Tek 4405/4406 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/25/16 8:28 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > mentions a 441x line that ran uTek, that I never heard of 431x From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 25 10:48:19 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 10:48:19 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <57452E4C.9090706@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> <5745207E.2090007@pico-systems.com> <57452E4C.9090706@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5745C943.1050102@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2016 11:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/24/2016 08:48 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> For sure! The 360/30 was an 8 BIT machine, 8-bit memory, 8-bit data >> paths, etc. Really hobbled the performance, and restricted the >> peripherals that could be attached. The models /22 and /25 had 16-bit >> memory and data paths. > Do you mean the 360/20? On the topic, were the 20 and 40 the only > members of System 360 to use TROS? No, the 360/20 was a 16-bit ISA, somewhat compatible with the 360 layout, but not really a 360. All registers were 16-bit, only 8 registers, lots of differences. But, EVEN the 360/20 had a 16-bit memory and data paths. The /20 had no channels, there were only 4 device types that could be directly attached to the built-in controllers. The 360/30 was a full 360 implementation (16, 32-bit registers, floating point was available as an option), but the underlying hardware was 8-bit wide. The 1130 was for a totally different market, the /20 was intended for very specific uses in 360 shops, and maybe as an entry-level "foot in the door" to move totally tab card shops into the 360 family. The only /20s I ever saw were used as offline spool printers and card readers in large 360 shops. Jon From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 25 11:01:27 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 09:01:27 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5745C943.1050102@pico-systems.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> <5745207E.2090007@pico-systems.com> <57452E4C.9090706@sydex.com> <5745C943.1050102@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57897e6e-aeb0-f6b5-4d6a-467b9c452f55@jwsss.com> On 5/25/2016 8:48 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > The only /20s I ever saw were used as offline spool printers and card > readers in large 360 shops. At our school, University of Missouri, Rolla, they purchased a 360/50 in maybe 69 or so. Because of the nature of the order it couldn't be delivered, and a 360/40 was delivered as a starter system. I think the /30 was still not similar enough to the /50 to be useful to get what they needed running so that deliver of the /50 would be smooth. It may have been a capacity problem as well, as the /50 need a large for the time disk subsystem. The comms were to be used for CPS which only ran on the /50 I think. McAuto in St. Louis used a lot of the /20's for their printer farm, and that was the only place I ever saw one in use. They spooled tape to printer in the use it was put to. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 25 12:01:35 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 13:01:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) Message-ID: <20160525170135.314AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > the /20 was intended for very specific uses in 360 shops, and maybe as > an entry-level "foot in the door" to move totally tab card shops into > the 360 family. The only /20s I ever saw were used as offline spool > printers and card readers in large 360 shops. I interned at IBM Bermuda, and they had a 360/20 as their main service bureau machine; it had (IIRC) a card reader/punch, 4 tape drives, and a 4301 printer. When I got there, they had just gotten in a System 3 (two single-platter hard drives, a 4301 printer, and I'm not sure what else) to replace it. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 25 12:06:00 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 12:06:00 -0500 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <20160525170135.314AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160525170135.314AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> On 05/25/2016 12:01 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jon Elson > > > the /20 was intended for very specific uses in 360 shops, and maybe as > > an entry-level "foot in the door" to move totally tab card shops into > > the 360 family. The only /20s I ever saw were used as offline spool > > printers and card readers in large 360 shops. > > I interned at IBM Bermuda, and they had a 360/20 as their main service bureau > machine; it had (IIRC) a card reader/punch, 4 tape drives, and a 4301 > printer. When I got there, they had just gotten in a System 3 (two > single-platter hard drives, a 4301 printer, and I'm not sure what else) to > replace it. > > I'm guessing, maybe, that would be a 1403 printer? There were 1403 and 1443 printers. The only language supported on the 360/20 was RPG. For a mostly tab card type of operation, you could actually do a lot in RPG. Otherwise, you had to write in machine language and get it assembled on another system. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 25 12:08:18 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 10:08:18 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <57897e6e-aeb0-f6b5-4d6a-467b9c452f55@jwsss.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> <5745207E.2090007@pico-systems.com> <57452E4C.9090706@sydex.com> <5745C943.1050102@pico-systems.com> <57897e6e-aeb0-f6b5-4d6a-467b9c452f55@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5745DC02.9010808@sydex.com> On 05/25/2016 09:01 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > McAuto in St. Louis used a lot of the /20's for their printer farm, > and that was the only place I ever saw one in use. They spooled tape > to printer in the use it was put to. According to WikiP, IBM leased over 7,000 of the 20s, so that would make it a contender for volume--I doubt that half as many 1130s were sold. Anecdote time. A Chicago-area manufacturer of fans and blowers used the usual (for the time), collection of unit-record equipment for their accounting and inventory needs. It worked well and the operation was pretty much a one-person setup. The president of the company was visited by an IBM marketing guy who made said president's eyes go all glassy with the prospect of having a real computer and detailed reports being delivered to his desk every morning. So he installed a 20 with its (censored) "Mother Fletcher's Card Mulcher) and associated gear, which, I believe, included a 2311 and a printer. He also would up hiring 2 more people. He got nice thick reports delivered to his desk every morning, as promised, but found that he could get more information by (shudder) visiting the manufacturing floor and talking with the managers there. So the stacks of green-bar paper piled up, unread. He was later invited to an IBM shindig set up by marketing. During which, he approached a systems engineer and described his operation, leaving out the fact that he already had the 20 setup. The response from the SE was that a simple unit-record setup would be more than adequate for many years for an operation his size. He was on the phone to IBM the next day, canceling the lease of the 20 and associated gear. ------ My bad experience with the Model 20 was based on my wanting to syntax check a small deck of assembly. I knew where a rarely-used 20 was hiding out. So, with a bit of help, we got the assembler loaded and ran my deck in. I was greeted with the printer spewing out error after error. You know, you might start off a S/360 program with something like: BALR 15,0 USING *,15 URP! BALR? Reg 15? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 25 12:11:24 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 10:11:24 -0700 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> References: <20160525170135.314AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5745DCBC.7060808@sydex.com> On 05/25/2016 10:06 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > The only language supported on the 360/20 was RPG. For a mostly tab > card type of operation, you could actually do a lot in RPG. > Otherwise, you had to write in machine language and get it assembled > on another system. My recollection was that there was a native assembler for the 20; it did not, IIRC, include such goodies as macros, but was sufficient to write small programs. --Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Wed May 25 12:13:32 2016 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 19:13:32 +0200 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) References: <20160525170135.314AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > > The only language supported on the 360/20 was RPG. For a mostly tab card > type of operation, you could actually do a lot in RPG. Otherwise, you had > to write in machine language and get it assembled on another system. I never used a /20, but I did a lot RPG/II on a model /40. It is in fact one of my favourites... (I can hear people laughing!). For a customer, I wrote a RPG interpretor, so he could use the in-house RPG expertise to set up validation routines for the data coming into the shop. The interpretor was written in Turbo Pascal for Windows 1.50. The output was a DLL, which was then used in a nice media conversion program (InterMedia) /Nico -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 4534 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed May 25 12:19:31 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 14:19:31 -0300 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> References: <20160525170135.314AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5745DEA3.4080706@gmail.com> On 2016-05-25 2:06 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/25/2016 12:01 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Jon Elson >> >> > the /20 was intended for very specific uses in 360 shops, and >> maybe as >> > an entry-level "foot in the door" to move totally tab card >> shops into >> > the 360 family. The only /20s I ever saw were used as offline >> spool >> > printers and card readers in large 360 shops. >> >> I interned at IBM Bermuda, and they had a 360/20 as their main >> service bureau >> machine; it had (IIRC) a card reader/punch, 4 tape drives, and a 4301 >> printer. When I got there, they had just gotten in a System 3 (two >> single-platter hard drives, a 4301 printer, and I'm not sure what >> else) to >> replace it. >> >> > I'm guessing, maybe, that would be a 1403 printer? There were 1403 > and 1443 printers. > > The only language supported on the 360/20 was RPG. For a mostly tab > card type of operation, you could actually do a lot in RPG. Otherwise, > you had to write in machine language and get it assembled on another > system. > > Jon RPG was also a very popular language on S/3, S/32, S/34, S/36, S/38 and AS/400 however as time went by it changed a lot and I am told the RPG on the AS/400 bears little resemblance to the original. The closest I even got to RPG was when writing code for S/36 we needed a test file and looked at DFU as a means of creating one, we scrapped that idea when we found we needed to use RPG specs to describe the file, and modified a COBOL program one of my coworkers had to create the file. Paul. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 25 12:39:38 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 12:39:38 -0500 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <5745DCBC.7060808@sydex.com> References: <20160525170135.314AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> <5745DCBC.7060808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5745E35A.1000102@pico-systems.com> On 05/25/2016 12:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/25/2016 10:06 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> The only language supported on the 360/20 was RPG. For a mostly tab >> card type of operation, you could actually do a lot in RPG. >> Otherwise, you had to write in machine language and get it assembled >> on another system. > My recollection was that there was a native assembler for the 20; it did > not, IIRC, include such goodies as macros, but was sufficient to write > small programs. > OK, makes sense, but I didn't find any doc about it when I did some searching a while ago. Jon From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed May 25 12:41:37 2016 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 19:41:37 +0200 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5744DDB9.4080007@gmail.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5744C5D9.9030808@gmail.com> <5744D955.3000109@sydex.com> <5744DDB9.4080007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5745E3D1.7060803@ljw.me.uk> On 25/05/16 01:03, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2016-05-24 7:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 05/24/2016 02:21 PM, Paul Berger wrote: >> >>> The CROS cards used in a 360/30 where the same size as an 80 column >>> card on purpose so you could you a keypunch machine to program the >>> microcode. >> But I believe that the CROS cards were mylar, no? >> >> --Chuck >> > Yes mylar with copper tracks keypunch was used to cut tracks as required. > > Paul > > Card (paper) ones did exist! But I suspect they were only for emergency FE use. It may be that the mylar ones were not manual-punch friendly, so you could make a duplicate to use while you waited for the proper spare to arrive. There's a photo of a mylar card at http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/photos/ -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 25 12:48:57 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 13:48:57 -0400 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> References: <20160525170135.314AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > I'm guessing, maybe, that would be a 1403 printer? There were 1403 and 1443 > printers. There was also a 1404 printer, but I do not think many places had them. Does anyone know what became of the two S/360 model 20 systems that came out of Sweden a year or two ago? They were fairly complete with MFCMs and tape units. My bid for one did not get accepted, and I do not know who the winner(s) were. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 25 13:09:07 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 11:09:07 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <57450B5C.3050107@pico-systems.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <574492E6.4000508@sydex.com> <5744A69B.5070109@sydex.com> <0C727C58-74E6-431C-AE78-05F81BA55B54@cs.ubc.ca> <57450B5C.3050107@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <53941F7F-5CA6-42D7-891A-E1FE4DF4054C@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-24, at 7:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/24/2016 02:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2016-May-24, at 12:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 05/24/2016 11:22 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >>>> On 5/24/16 10:44 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> >>>>> There was also automated "stapled wire". I forget the name for the >>>>> process. >>>> stitch wire >>>> >>>> you spot weld to a socket post >>> Yes, but there was a trademarked name for the process that slips my >>> mind. Capable of very high densities. >> >> I've wondered what the trade name for this was: >> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/pics/large/crimps.jpg >> >> Mid-late 60s usage but I've never heard a name for it. >> Note the posts are not square - they're not standard wire-wrap posts with a different connector. >> >> > YUP!!! THAT'S IT! Even the wires are yellow, as I remember them! The system was made by AMP. Glad that someone recognises it from the period. The edge connectors are indeed labeled from AMP. Now if we only knew the name. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed May 25 14:16:37 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 15:16:37 -0400 Subject: WTB: Compaq Portable 486 for parts. References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1AFCE41E06824E58880EF4190CD82BBA@310e2> By any chance does anybody have a defunct Portable 486c that they can part with? Only really needs a good case; am trying to help someone replace his damaged one. TIA, mike From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 25 14:23:24 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 12:23:24 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <8FAC2DCE-4DCC-4222-A69D-4E6AA2D66AD8@cs.ubc.ca> <8807572B-2A6B-4F58-B8F9-9303B826615F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4DF93FDE-0B28-447D-8DEA-EC3D98F6BE17@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-24, at 5:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Yes, I examined this in some detail last year after mention on the list, and wrote it up: >> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/corerope/index.html > > That's a great write-up! Thanks! Thanks, I had been perplexed by the descriptions of the AGC ROM available in the usual places (the AGC books), they gloss over aspects or in some cases are inaccurate, and once looking into the AGC ROM in detail realised they were (at least) two techniques being used in woven-wire/transformer ROMs. > I'm not sure about how IBM TROS was driven, but the core-rope memory > I've examined was not from an AGC and didn't use the switching core > technique, so I wouldn't consider that decode technique to be an > inherent property of core rope memory, although it's certainly clever. I think this just goes to the etymology of the phrase "core rope" - whether one chooses to apply the term only to the switching-core technique (where I believe it originated), or generally to woven-wire ROMS which take on the appearance of a rope (which seems to be the common use these days). It appears the switching-core ROM technique was a practical application or outcome of the more-general "magnetic core logic" technology of the 50's. > The core rope memory I examined had 64 words. Of the six address > lines, three fed a three-to-eight decoder with high-side drivers, and > the other three fed a three-to-eight decoder with low-side drivers. > Each of the 64 word drive lines was wired between a unqiue pair of > high-side and low-side drivers. That required significantly less > circuitry than a single-ended six-to-64 decoder. > > The same technique was used for the X drive and Y drive of "normal" > core memory, such as the PDP-1 drivers for the Fabritek 4K planes in > the PDP-1 at CHM. (There was an earlier model of PDP-1 core memory > that might have used a different drive scheme.) The X drive used one > pair of eight each high and low side drivers, and the Y drive used > another such pair. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 25 14:23:28 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 12:23:28 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <8FAC2DCE-4DCC-4222-A69D-4E6AA2D66AD8@cs.ubc.ca> <8807572B-2A6B-4F58-B8F9-9303B826615F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2016-May-24, at 5:48 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On May 24, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> Yes, I examined this in some detail last year after mention on the list, and wrote it up: >>> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/corerope/index.html >> >> That's a great write-up! Thanks! > > Agreed! > > I'm going to have to study the training manual for the EL-X1 in more detail, because it describes how its ROM core memory works, and it doesn't seem to be an exact match of either of the ones in Brent's document. Since it goes back to 1958 it seems to be the oldest example, so it's worth digging out the details. Thanks; if you find out some details or refs about the X1 ROM implementation, let me know, I'll be interested to compare them and should add mention of it on my page at some time as another application of the technology. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed May 25 14:35:33 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 20:35:33 +0100 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5745DC02.9010808@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> <5745207E.2090007@pico-systems.com> <57452E4C.9090706@sydex.com> <5745C943.1050102@pico-systems.com> <57897e6e-aeb0-f6b5-4d6a-467b9c452f55@jwsss.com> <5745DC02.9010808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0ace01d1b6bc$9c4cc9c0$d4e65d40$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 25 May 2016 18:08 > To: jwsmail at jwsss.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Front panel switches - what did they do? > > On 05/25/2016 09:01 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > McAuto in St. Louis used a lot of the /20's for their printer farm, > > and that was the only place I ever saw one in use. They spooled tape > > to printer in the use it was put to. > > According to WikiP, IBM leased over 7,000 of the 20s, so that would make it a > contender for volume--I doubt that half as many 1130s were sold. > According to Wikip around 10,000 1130's were sold. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1130 one salesman claims to have sold 1,000. They were dotted about all over the place, so when I was a Student in the UK Newcastle University had a 360/67. The Polytechnic where I studied had an 1130 as an RJE station, as did Durham University, the "Gas Board", and the British Ship Research Council. Newcastle University also had an 1130 for As I have said else where the Institute of Oceanographic sciences had one on a ship, and at Bidston Observatory. There is one preserved at The National Museum of Computing, Bletchly. http://www.tnmoc.org/news/current-projects/ibm-1130-system-restoration-during-2011 which came from Liverpool University.... .. which almost takes us back in a circle, as that link shows the switches and lights..... Dave G4UGM From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 25 14:51:03 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 12:51:03 -0700 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <5745E35A.1000102@pico-systems.com> References: <20160525170135.314AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> <5745DCBC.7060808@sydex.com> <5745E35A.1000102@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57460227.908@sydex.com> I have a related question. All of the S/260s that I've seen had 2400 series tape drives. But my "green card" makes reference to 729 drives as well. Does anyone recall them being installed on a S/360 system? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 25 14:54:09 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 12:54:09 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <0ace01d1b6bc$9c4cc9c0$d4e65d40$@gmail.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> <5745207E.2090007@pico-systems.com> <57452E4C.9090706@sydex.com> <5745C943.1050102@pico-systems.com> <57897e6e-aeb0-f6b5-4d6a-467b9c452f55@jwsss.com> <5745DC02.9010808@sydex.com> <0ace01d1b6bc$9c4cc9c0$d4e65d40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <574602E1.7020709@sydex.com> On 05/25/2016 12:35 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > According to Wikip around 10,000 1130's were sold. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1130 > > one salesman claims to have sold 1,000. They were dotted about all > over the place, so when I was a Student in the UK Newcastle > University had a 360/67. The Polytechnic where I studied had an 1130 > as an RJE station, as did Durham University, the "Gas Board", and > the British Ship Research Council. I had no idea! I've programmed an 1130, but it seemed to be rather limited, but maybe that was what contributed to its popularity and low cost. Does that number also include the 1800? --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 25 15:17:16 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 13:17:16 -0700 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <57460227.908@sydex.com> References: <20160525170135.314AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> <5745DCBC.7060808@sydex.com> <5745E35A.1000102@pico-systems.com> <57460227.908@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9ef704c9-a7b6-4bc1-d82c-573bf59a5b11@jwsss.com> On 5/25/2016 12:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have a related question. All of the S/260s that I've seen had 2400 > series tape drives. But my "green card" makes reference to 729 drives > as well. Does anyone recall them being installed on a S/360 system? > > --Chuck Our 360/50 had 2400 drives. Read both 7 and 9 track on one. I think the subsystem was structured similar to the 3400 which had a controller box that powered and ran the drives. I'm not sure what the 2400 system number was, but the 3400 series was a 3803, I think with the power supply and channel, etc. thanks Jim From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed May 25 15:23:10 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 21:23:10 +0100 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <574602E1.7020709@sydex.com> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> <5745207E.2090007@pico-systems.com> <57452E4C.9090706@sydex.com> <5745C943.1050102@pico-systems.com> <57897e6e-aeb0-f6b5-4d6a-467b9c452f55@jwsss.com> <5745DC02.9010808@sydex.com> <0ace01d1b6bc$9c4cc9c0$d4e65d40$@gmail.com> <574602E1.7020709@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0b0701d1b6c3$4290f850$c7b2e8f0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 25 May 2016 20:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Front panel switches - what did they do? > > On 05/25/2016 12:35 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > > According to Wikip around 10,000 1130's were sold. > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1130 > > > > one salesman claims to have sold 1,000. They were dotted about all > > over the place, so when I was a Student in the UK Newcastle University > > had a 360/67. The Polytechnic where I studied had an 1130 as an RJE > > station, as did Durham University, the "Gas Board", and the British > > Ship Research Council. > > I had no idea! I've programmed an 1130, but it seemed to be rather > limited, but maybe that was what contributed to its popularity and low cost. They were rather limited in computing terms, but it was easy to add custom i/o to them. There were lots of application packages, so I believe that many were used for specialist tasks. I bet both the Ship Research and the Gas Board used them with CSMP for solving differential equations. There was ECAP a circuit modelling program. It really was sold as a departmental or personal computer. > > Does that number also include the 1800? > I don't think so. According to http://ethw.org/IBM_1800 about 2,000 IBM 1800's were sold.. > --Chuck Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed May 25 17:26:36 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 17:26:36 -0500 Subject: BBC Tube... Running UNIX? In-Reply-To: <877fei45uv.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <877fei45uv.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: <5746269C.5090709@gmail.com> On 05/25/2016 08:36 AM, Aaron Jackson wrote: > I just revisited the Wikipedia page for the BBC Micro Tube [1]. > Apparently with a 32bit NS320 processor it was possible to run some > variant of UNIX? Does anyone know anything about this? I'd be very > interested in experimenting with it, if it is true. All evidence that I've seen suggests that it didn't exist, at least in the wild, even though some documentation does make a passing reference to it (it's quoted in the BBC user manual, I believe, and I've seen it in some Acorn Business Computer marketing material). Acorn - with involvement from Logica - certainly attempted a port of Xenix to the hardware, but it's not clear how far they ever got. I've seen a few corporate emails which suggest that they were encountering severe performance problems, both with the ns32k CPU itself and with transfer of data across the Tube link. For Unix "on a BBC" I think the only option was System III from Torch running on a m68k "Atlas" co-processor. cheers Jules From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 25 17:31:21 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 18:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) Message-ID: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson >> I interned at IBM Bermuda, and they had a 360/20 as their main service >> bureau machine; it had (IIRC) ... a 4301 printer. > I'm guessing, maybe, that would be a 1403 printer? Ah, right you are! The old grey cells are, well, old! ;-) Those printers had an amazingly long life! They were first introduced in 1959 with the 1401 computer, and, like I said, the brand spanking new System 3 they got in ca. 1976 came with one! I wonder when IBM stopped producing them? Noel From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed May 25 17:43:40 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 23:43:40 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000 model 500. In-Reply-To: <4fada513-dee7-89b8-59c6-247019c4bb8b@btinternet.com> References: <36d9b0fa-eb79-5e5c-eeac-48ac26e8aede@btinternet.com> <4fada513-dee7-89b8-59c6-247019c4bb8b@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <57462A9C.8080004@ntlworld.com> On 25/05/16 01:30, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 24/05/2016 22:41, Glen Slick wrote: >> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Rod Smallwood >> wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> My main system a VAX 4000 Model 500 with a KA680 CPU has just >>> started >>> halting at test 51 on power up. >>> >>> Does any body know where I can lay my hands on a spare KA680? >>> >> The system maintenance manual claims that ?51 means "NOROM No valid ROM image found", which seems a bit odd. But that's a VMB message, so unless it was trying to boot then perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place ... Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed May 25 17:34:32 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 10:34:32 +1200 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: References: <20160525170135.314AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 5:48 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I'm guessing, maybe, that would be a 1403 printer? There were 1403 and 1443 >> printers. > > There was also a 1404 printer, but I do not think many places had them. > > Does anyone know what became of the two S/360 model 20 systems that > came out of Sweden a year or two ago? They were fairly complete with > MFCMs and tape units. My bid for one did not get accepted, and I do > not know who the winner(s) were. Well I know LCM has at least one working... and if there was any bidding involved they would have won by definition! But I don't know if that's where they got it or not. I hadn't heard about these machines; I would have been interested of course. http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 25 18:23:07 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 16:23:07 -0700 Subject: WTB: Compaq Portable 486 for parts. In-Reply-To: <1AFCE41E06824E58880EF4190CD82BBA@310e2> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> <1AFCE41E06824E58880EF4190CD82BBA@310e2> Message-ID: <809a5700-b08d-9551-13fd-3b62102183d7@bitsavers.org> On 5/25/16 12:16 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > am trying to help someone replace his damaged one. > is the guy in texas? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 25 18:29:46 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 16:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 May 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Those printers had an amazingly long life! They were first introduced in 1959 > with the 1401 computer, and, like I said, the brand spanking new System 3 > they got in ca. 1976 came with one! I wonder when IBM stopped producing > them? Did they discontinue the most long lasting printer that they had made? From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 25 18:47:23 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 16:47:23 -0700 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57669721-f20d-1bea-5c83-c1b9b77b90e2@jwsss.com> On 5/25/2016 4:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 25 May 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> Those printers had an amazingly long life! They were first introduced >> in 1959 >> with the 1401 computer, and, like I said, the brand spanking new >> System 3 >> they got in ca. 1976 came with one! I wonder when IBM stopped producing >> them? > > Did they discontinue the most long lasting printer that they had made The 1403 was and is a great printer, but IBM didn't make a lot of crappy ones. We had a 6262 and a 3xxx (don't recall it) with a builtin channel both of which were great printers too. Don't forget such as the laser engine coupled units either. Huge messes, but could turn out amazing volumes of printed material. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 25 18:48:18 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 16:48:18 -0700 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> On 05/25/2016 03:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Those printers had an amazingly long life! They were first introduced > in 1959 with the 1401 computer, and, like I said, the brand spanking > new System 3 they got in ca. 1976 came with one! I wonder when IBM > stopped producing them? One of the lesser-known stories is that up until the 512 printer, CDC offered drum printers (501 mostly) for high-speed printing. They were desperate to get a train printer on the market, but the prototypes would not last more than a few minutes before the print train flew apart. Somehow, they got hold of a 1403N1 and essentially took the print mechanism to pieces to learn its secrets. I don't know if the 1403 ever worked right after that... --Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed May 25 19:12:14 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 21:12:14 -0300 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <57669721-f20d-1bea-5c83-c1b9b77b90e2@jwsss.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57669721-f20d-1bea-5c83-c1b9b77b90e2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <57463F5E.1090602@gmail.com> On 2016-05-25 8:47 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 5/25/2016 4:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 25 May 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> Those printers had an amazingly long life! They were first >>> introduced in 1959 >>> with the 1401 computer, and, like I said, the brand spanking new >>> System 3 >>> they got in ca. 1976 came with one! I wonder when IBM stopped producing >>> them? >> >> Did they discontinue the most long lasting printer that they had made > The 1403 was and is a great printer, but IBM didn't make a lot of > crappy ones. We had a 6262 and a 3xxx (don't recall it) with a > builtin channel both of which were great printers too. Don't forget > such as the laser engine coupled units either. Huge messes, but could > turn out amazing volumes of printed material. The 1403 was replaced by the 3203 which used the same print trains there was also a faster 3211 that used a different train. Later there was the 4245 band printer which was a 3203 with a different front gate and later the 6262 which was the last of the big impact printers. The 3211 was announced in 1970 which may have been the end of the 1403, but people where still using them long after that. The 3203 was announced around 1979 and had performance comparable to 1403 and used the same trains, but did not have as good of a stacker. The 6262 had electronic hammer timing which took away one of the really tedious, not to mention deafening jobs in these printers. On the 3203 and 4245 each hammer had a set screw behind it that adjust the hammer flight timing and you would run a H pattern and look for columns that where off to one side adjust and run again and repeat until all 132 columns where looking good. On the 6262 there was a special setup tool that was put in front of the hammers and connected to the printer, and then you would run a test and it would electronically measure the timing of each hammer and adjust the firing time accordingly. I liked the big 3800 duplex setup, two 3800s where set up end to end with precise spacing between them the paper was fed through one one 3800 and into the other with the paper being turned over between them. The 3800 printer also had burst and slit features available that the CEs called rip and tear feature. Printing steadily a 3800 could empty a box of paper in four minutes and it would detect the end of the paper and stop before it fed all the way in and there was a fold down table with pins on it so the operator could align and join on the new box so they did not have to completely re-thread the paper. Paul From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed May 25 19:17:18 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 21:17:18 -0300 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> On 2016-05-25 8:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/25/2016 03:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> Those printers had an amazingly long life! They were first introduced >> in 1959 with the 1401 computer, and, like I said, the brand spanking >> new System 3 they got in ca. 1976 came with one! I wonder when IBM >> stopped producing them? > One of the lesser-known stories is that up until the 512 printer, CDC > offered drum printers (501 mostly) for high-speed printing. They were > desperate to get a train printer on the market, but the prototypes would > not last more than a few minutes before the print train flew apart. > > Somehow, they got hold of a 1403N1 and essentially took the print > mechanism to pieces to learn its secrets. I don't know if the 1403 ever > worked right after that... > > --Chuck > The train printers where amazing technology but what often killed the trains was an operator who neglected to top off the oil reservoir, if the train went dry they would literally screech to a halt. It was always interesting when someone put a carriage control tape on backwards or didn't lower the brushes, the first skip would empty the box and the paper would be all packed up under the cover. Paul. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 25 19:46:36 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 17:46:36 -0700 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5746476C.9090404@sydex.com> On 05/25/2016 05:17 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > The train printers where amazing technology but what often killed > the trains was an operator who neglected to top off the oil > reservoir, if the train went dry they would literally screech to a > halt. It was always interesting when someone put a carriage control > tape on backwards or didn't lower the brushes, the first skip would > empty the box and the paper would be all packed up under the cover. The CE's nightmare for the 512 was a ribbon that started to disintegrate and become lodged in the train. As I've witnessed, it involves a container of solvent and a brush and completely disassembly of the train, scrubbing each type slug carefully, the putting the whole mess back together. Can you say "dirty filthy frustrating work?" --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed May 25 20:06:05 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 21:06:05 -0400 Subject: WTB: Compaq Portable 486 for parts. References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> <1AFCE41E06824E58880EF4190CD82BBA@310e2> <809a5700-b08d-9551-13fd-3b62102183d7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0CDFBE31E29F42669DB49EEA7A5306D0@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 7:23 PM Subject: Re: WTB: Compaq Portable 486 for parts. > > > On 5/25/16 12:16 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> am trying to help someone replace his damaged one. >> > > is the guy in texas? +++++++++++ Yeah; why do you ask? m From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 25 20:09:24 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 20:09:24 -0500 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <57460227.908@sydex.com> References: <20160525170135.314AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5745DB78.2060905@pico-systems.com> <5745DCBC.7060808@sydex.com> <5745E35A.1000102@pico-systems.com> <57460227.908@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57464CC4.6020803@pico-systems.com> On 05/25/2016 02:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have a related question. All of the S/260s that I've seen had 2400 > series tape drives. But my "green card" makes reference to 729 drives > as well. Does anyone recall them being installed on a S/360 system? > > --Chuck > > Well, the early 2400 tape drives had a VERY simple interface. The read amps delivered raw analog signals to the controller. The write amps took 9 digital signals from the controller. There were also forward, reverse, rewind, write gate and EOT/BOT sensors, and unit select. VERY simple interface at the VERY lowest possible level. I can easily imagine the 729 series of drives may have had a very similar interface. So, it may be possible that these could be interchanged fairly easily. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 25 20:14:56 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 20:14:56 -0500 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57464E10.3080802@pico-systems.com> On 05/25/2016 05:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jon Elson > > >> I interned at IBM Bermuda, and they had a 360/20 as their main service > >> bureau machine; it had (IIRC) ... a 4301 printer. > > > I'm guessing, maybe, that would be a 1403 printer? > > Ah, right you are! The old grey cells are, well, old! ;-) > > Those printers had an amazingly long life! They were first introduced in 1959 > with the 1401 computer, and, like I said, the brand spanking new System 3 > they got in ca. 1976 came with one! I wonder when IBM stopped producing > them? > > I believe IBM recycled them from retired machines for an amazing length of time. Certainly, a number of 1403s were in use on 370 and even later systems. I was recently surprised while digging at bitsavers to find out how ancient the 2821 controller was - all SMS cards and some very ingenious magnetic transformer tricks to do the address selection of the core stack with as few transistors as possible. (The 2821 was the controller for the card read/punch as well as the 1403 printer family.) Jon From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed May 25 20:16:57 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 22:16:57 -0300 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <5746476C.9090404@sydex.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> <5746476C.9090404@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57464E89.9070001@gmail.com> On 2016-05-25 9:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/25/2016 05:17 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > >> The train printers where amazing technology but what often killed >> the trains was an operator who neglected to top off the oil >> reservoir, if the train went dry they would literally screech to a >> halt. It was always interesting when someone put a carriage control >> tape on backwards or didn't lower the brushes, the first skip would >> empty the box and the paper would be all packed up under the cover. > The CE's nightmare for the 512 was a ribbon that started to disintegrate > and become lodged in the train. As I've witnessed, it involves a > container of solvent and a brush and completely disassembly of the > train, scrubbing each type slug carefully, the putting the whole mess > back together. Can you say "dirty filthy frustrating work?" > > --Chuck > Yeah I watch some of the large system guys disassemble and repair trains and of course when you put them back together you had to make sure the slugs where all in the right order. We had customers that would buy 3rd party ribbons that where practically dripping with ink that would gum up everything in the machine. The other problem we had with 3rd party ribbons on 3203 and 4245 was some would be too transparent and would mess up the tracking sensor so the ribbons would go off one side. I only ever saw one of the drum style high speed printers and I think it was a Honeywell wavey line printer. I remember the operator demoed it for us by printing a picture, if you printed a whole line of the same character it would fire every hammer at the same time, it was very noisey. The 1403 limited the number of hammers that could fire simultaneously, for testing the CEs had what was called train breaker routine that would exercise the printer firing the maximum number repeatedly. Paul. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed May 25 20:26:10 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 22:26:10 -0300 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <57464E10.3080802@pico-systems.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57464E10.3080802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <574650B2.3080509@gmail.com> On 2016-05-25 10:14 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/25/2016 05:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Jon Elson >> >> >> I interned at IBM Bermuda, and they had a 360/20 as their >> main service >> >> bureau machine; it had (IIRC) ... a 4301 printer. >> >> > I'm guessing, maybe, that would be a 1403 printer? >> >> Ah, right you are! The old grey cells are, well, old! ;-) >> >> Those printers had an amazingly long life! They were first introduced >> in 1959 >> with the 1401 computer, and, like I said, the brand spanking new >> System 3 >> they got in ca. 1976 came with one! I wonder when IBM stopped producing >> them? >> >> > I believe IBM recycled them from retired machines for an amazing > length of time. Certainly, a number of 1403s were in use on 370 and > even later systems. I was recently surprised while digging at > bitsavers to find out how ancient the 2821 controller was - all SMS > cards and some very ingenious magnetic transformer tricks to do the > address selection of the core stack with as few transistors as > possible. (The 2821 was the controller for the card read/punch as > well as the 1403 printer family.) > > Jon The 360/25 came with a built in attachment for a 1403 and the whole CPU was not much larger than a 2821. When I first came to Halifax in 1979 one of the banks was still running 360s in their paper processing center, they had a 22 and a 25, each one with a 1403 printer, 2501 card reader, 3411 tape drive, and a 1419 cheque sorter. By that time all the other banks had 370 systems and 3890 cheque sorters, another long lived machine, announced in 1973 and still in use today. The original machines had a 360 CPU bolted onto the end as a control unit. One bank had a 370/115 CPU and when they got a 3890 they had to replace it with a faster CPU because the 3890 would overrun the channels. Paul. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 25 20:43:20 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 18:43:20 -0700 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <57464E89.9070001@gmail.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> <5746476C.9090404@sydex.com> <57464E89.9070001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <574654B8.1010406@sydex.com> On 05/25/2016 06:16 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > I only ever saw one of the drum style high speed printers and I think > it was a Honeywell wavey line printer. I remember the operator > demoed it for us by printing a picture, if you printed a whole line > of the same character it would fire every hammer at the same time, it > was very noisey. The 1403 limited the number of hammers that could > fire simultaneously, for testing the CEs had what was called train > breaker routine that would exercise the printer firing the maximum > number repeatedly. CDC printer ribbons came packaged with a set of disposable gloves. Good thing, that. One of the problems with the 501 drum printer was that hammers could get gummed up and slow down a bit. The "wavy line" output was typical of this. (similar delays on train printers would result in a lateral displacement of a character, which for some reason, wasn't nearly as annoying.) One bit of entertainment for the military visitors was either "Anchors Aweigh" or "The Stars and Stripes Forever", played using the 1604 speaker, tape drives, and the 501 as percussion. The 501 had a switch for high/low speed. If set to "low", the output wasn't half bad. The 501 would rattle like a machine gun, but the 512 train printer would put out an ear-splitting scream if you left the sound cover up. The train printers did have an obvious advantage over both the drum and band printers. In our shop, we printed lots and lots of core dumps. Add to a full CM dump, a couple of million words of ECS and the "0" characters wore out pretty quickly. You could replace a train slug, but had to live with "fuzzy" zeroes until someone higher up couldn't stand the printout. I recall reading a set of pre-publication Univac 1108 manuals that were printed on a badly-adjusted drum printer. It gave me headaches. --Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:22:02 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 23:22:02 -0300 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <574654B8.1010406@sydex.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> <5746476C.9090404@sydex.com> <57464E89.9070001@gmail.com> <574654B8.1010406@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57465DCA.50304@gmail.com> On 2016-05-25 10:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The train printers did have an obvious advantage over both the drum > and band printers. In our shop, we printed lots and lots of core > dumps. Add to a full CM dump, a couple of million words of ECS and the > "0" characters wore out pretty quickly. You could replace a train > slug, but had to live with "fuzzy" zeroes until someone higher up > couldn't stand the printout. I recall reading a set of pre-publication > Univac 1108 manuals that were printed on a badly-adjusted drum > printer. It gave me headaches. --Chuck Speaking of dumps I remember an engineer friend telling me that at the university that he went to they had a CDC Cyber system and they discovered that you could initiate a dump from any workstation, and the system would dump out to the printer and while it was dumping the whole system came to a halt.... guess what the students where fond of doing...... It would seem to me that something like that should have been more restricted. In the first couple years of working as an electronic technician, we still had software people in the branch office, and I remember being blown away by this one guy. He came into the office with a MVS dump which was a 6-8 inch stack of paper and on the top of each was a header with the IAR and register contents when the system trapped. He looks at the IAR and digs into the dump to find that address and then he starts working backwards, unassembling the instructions in his head and after a few minutes he points to a spot in the dump and says "yes there it is, there is where it started to go wrong" Paul. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 25 21:58:52 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 19:58:52 -0700 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <57465DCA.50304@gmail.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> <5746476C.9090404@sydex.com> <57464E89.9070001@gmail.com> <574654B8.1010406@sydex.com> <57465DCA.50304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5746666C.4000804@sydex.com> On 05/25/2016 07:22 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > Speaking of dumps I remember an engineer friend telling me that at > the university that he went to they had a CDC Cyber system and they > discovered that you could initiate a dump from any workstation, and > the system would dump out to the printer and while it was dumping the > whole system came to a halt.... guess what the students where fond > of doing...... It would seem to me that something like that should > have been more restricted. At least in SCOPE and KRONOS, DMP was the command to dump memory--but if initiated from a user's control point, it would dump only the user's FL, not the whole system. So the story seems to be a bit apocryphal to me. Most university systems charged not only by the CPU second, but also by the number of lines printed and the number of cards punched. --Chuck From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu May 26 00:17:22 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 06:17:22 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000 model 500. In-Reply-To: <57462A9C.8080004@ntlworld.com> References: <36d9b0fa-eb79-5e5c-eeac-48ac26e8aede@btinternet.com> <4fada513-dee7-89b8-59c6-247019c4bb8b@btinternet.com> <57462A9C.8080004@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3bddf4b0-cd79-df59-97af-2cb66eb7e1ed@btinternet.com> On 25/05/2016 23:43, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 25/05/16 01:30, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> >> On 24/05/2016 22:41, Glen Slick wrote: >>> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Rod Smallwood >>> wrote: >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> My main system a VAX 4000 Model 500 with a KA680 CPU has just >>>> started >>>> halting at test 51 on power up. >>>> >>>> Does any body know where I can lay my hands on a spare KA680? >>>> >>> > > The system maintenance manual claims that ?51 means "NOROM No valid > ROM image found", which seems a bit odd. > But that's a VMB message, so unless it was trying to boot then perhaps > I'm looking in the wrong place ... > > Antonio > > > Hi Thanks its now OK - The latches that hold the CPU board in are not a good design and the board was making intermittent contact. Regards Rod From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 25 20:00:18 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 20:00:18 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5745E3D1.7060803@ljw.me.uk> References: <51D7894F-30EB-4003-855D-205F35284542@cs.ubc.ca> <5744869D.7070004@pico-systems.com> <57449877.6000709@sydex.com> <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5744C5D9.9030808@gmail.com> <5744D955.3000109@sydex.com> <5744DDB9.4080007@gmail.com> <5745E3D1.7060803@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <57464AA2.50707@pico-systems.com> On 05/25/2016 12:41 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > > >> > Card (paper) ones did exist! But I suspect they were only > for emergency FE use. > It may be that the mylar ones were not manual-punch > friendly, so you could > make a duplicate to use while you waited for the proper > spare to arrive. > > There's a photo of a mylar card at > http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/photos/ > The Mylar cards were VERY thin. I always assumed they were attached to a slightly thinner than usual paper card for punching, then separated from the paper to put into the ROS system. That picture you linked to is the best photo I've seen of a /30 ROS card! Jon From jws at jwsss.com Thu May 26 00:56:10 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 22:56:10 -0700 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <944801fb-9e31-ed11-76f3-1386f7f2ea50@jwsss.com> At UMR, for whatever reason they had no carriage control on tape channel 12. If you were a clever (and unpopular) coder you could skip to channel 12 an accomplish the same thing. Programming languages in the shop had library overrides to make that a carriage control (another channel) but assembler programs could do it directly. Thanks Jim On 5/25/2016 5:17 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > It was always interesting when someone put a carriage control tape on > backwards or didn't lower the brushes, the first skip would empty the > box and the paper would be all packed up under the cover. > > Paul. From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Thu May 26 04:26:20 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 10:26:20 +0100 Subject: BBC Tube... Running UNIX? In-Reply-To: <5746269C.5090709@gmail.com> References: <877fei45uv.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> <5746269C.5090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87bn3tqif7.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> So the Wikipedia article isn't lying, there are some passing references to UNIX on the BBC. I have a BBC but not a Tube... I am wondering what I can find for BeebEm. Thanks for the info. Very interesting. Aaron > On 05/25/2016 08:36 AM, Aaron Jackson wrote: >> I just revisited the Wikipedia page for the BBC Micro Tube [1]. >> Apparently with a 32bit NS320 processor it was possible to run some >> variant of UNIX? Does anyone know anything about this? I'd be very >> interested in experimenting with it, if it is true. > > All evidence that I've seen suggests that it didn't exist, at least in the > wild, even though some documentation does make a passing reference to it > (it's quoted in the BBC user manual, I believe, and I've seen it in some > Acorn Business Computer marketing material). > > Acorn - with involvement from Logica - certainly attempted a port of Xenix > to the hardware, but it's not clear how far they ever got. I've seen a few > corporate emails which suggest that they were encountering severe > performance problems, both with the ns32k CPU itself and with transfer of > data across the Tube link. > > For Unix "on a BBC" I think the only option was System III from Torch > running on a m68k "Atlas" co-processor. > > cheers > > Jules From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 26 05:02:52 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 06:02:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? Message-ID: <20160526100252.EFC3118C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Swift Griggs > I'm curious about all these older machines with front panel buttons and > switches. What all did they do? In addition to reading/writing memory locations, and basic machine control (boot, start, stop, continue, single-step, etc), some machines had additional functionality, but what it was (if any) varied widely from machine to machine. E.g. the KA10, the first model of the PDP-10, had a front panel which also allowed you to (among other things): - execute the contents of the data switches as an instruction - either stop the CPU, or execute an interrupt (switch selected), when the address in the address switches was used for (switch selected): -- instruction fetch -- data fetch -- data write - repeat the previous key-press indefinitely (at a selectable speed) The latter one could be used for all sorts of things. I once watched someone halt the machine, put it in single-step mode, hit 'continue', and then 'repeat': by turning the 'repeat speed' knob up and down it was possible to cause the CPU to run at varying speeds, down to 1 instruction/second! I imagine that key could have also been used to clear memory by putting 0 in the address and data switches, hitting 'deposit' and then 'deposit next', and then 'repeat' (with the repetition rate turned to the max). You'd have to read the processor manual for each machine to know exactly what it could do from the front panel. E.g. some of the PDP-11's (/04, /34, /45 and /70, IIRC) had a mode where you could single-step the microcode. I recall using this on our /45 to debug it when the RETURN instruction broke... :-) Noel From ats at offog.org Thu May 26 05:19:20 2016 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 11:19:20 +0100 Subject: BBC Tube... Running UNIX? In-Reply-To: <5746269C.5090709@gmail.com> (Jules Richardson's message of "Wed, 25 May 2016 17:26:36 -0500") References: <877fei45uv.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> <5746269C.5090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules Richardson writes: > For Unix "on a BBC" I think the only option was System III from Torch > running on a m68k "Atlas" co-processor. Do any of the early PC Unixes (Venix, PC/IX, etc. -- or clones like Coherent or Minix) work on the Master 512's 80186 coprocessor? -- Adam Sampson From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 26 05:39:32 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 06:39:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question about UNIBUS terminators, M9300 Message-ID: <20160526103932.C7E2518C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Degnan > I have an M9300 bus terminator which I read is the same as a M930 with > the NPR logic (so you don't also need an NPR terminator in slot 3/4). Err, the M9300 would go in the same place as a M930, i.e. the UNIBUS in/out dual connector group, usually at the top (A/B connectors) of a slot in a backplane, in either the first or last slot _of the entire UNIBUS_. > I am thinking I can replace the M930 and G7273 in the last slot of my > backplane with a W2-open M9300. As a UNIBUS in/out dual-width device, the M9300 does not have separate 'grant in' and 'grant out' pins - just _one_ pin for the grant; the pin will function as 'in' _or_ 'out', depending on whether the card in question (of whatever type) is placed in the first or last slot of the UNIBUS. The dual-width G7273 goes in the middle connectors (C/D) of an SPC/MUD slot, to jumper both bus grants (BG4-BG7) and also NPG, all of which have both an 'in' and an 'out' pin in SPC/MUD slots (look at the G7273, you'll see 5 pairs of pins jumpered together - 1 set on one side, NPG; 4 sets on the other, BR4-BR7). So an M9300 cannot replace a G7273: it's intended for use in an entirely different kind of connector group. You might want to read the UNIBUS description in one of the earlier versions of the "PDP-11 Peripherals Handbook", which explains how the grants work: basically, they are daisy-chained through every device, so if a UNIBUS SPC/MUD backplane (which can hold a UNIBUS device in every slot) has a slot which does not contain a device, you have to put something with grant jumpers in instead. Whether the jumper need to be BG4-BG7 _only_ (the little small grant jumper cards), or a G7273 (which _also_ jumpers NPG) depends on whether _that particular slot_ has had its NPG jumper (wirewrap on the backplane) pulled, or not - most backplanes come with jumpers on NPG on all slots, and you have to remove the jumper if a device uses DMA. (In the early days, most did not, which is why that was the default.) > There are jumpers on this card. W1, W2, W. I did not find any specific > examples online of scenarios for the jumpers > ... > I think I get why one would remove the W2 jumper but if W1 is removed > (open) instead can someone give me an example scenario for when you'd > want to use this card "for beginning of non processor bus termination". > Can someone give me an example of when you'd do this? The device the M9300 was invented for was probably the RH11-AB, which is where one most often finds them. The RH11 is an UNIBUS device which is a MASSBUS controller; the RH11-AB has connectors for _two_ UNIBI (so one RH11-AB can be 'in' two PDP-11's at the same time; i.e. all the devices connected to that controller can be accessed from either machine). If it's only connected to a single CPU, though, what does one do with the second UNIBUS? That's where the M9300 comes in. It simulated the NPG-granting section of a CPU, and when jumpered to do that, it goes at the _start_ of a UNIBUS - e.g. the second UNIBUS in the RH11-AB. (Leave all the jumpers in, and it functions like an M930, and can go at either end). You can find a description of its use in the RH11-AB, as well as a description of how the M9300 works, in the "RH11-AB Option Description" document (available online), starting on page 4-32. I can't conceive of any use for one in most PDP-11's, though (outside an RH11-AB, of course). Noel From lionelj at labyrinth.net.au Thu May 26 05:44:35 2016 From: lionelj at labyrinth.net.au (Lionel Johnson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 20:44:35 +1000 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5746D393.3050502@labyrinth.net.au> On 25/05/2016 5:06 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I used to have a notebook of toggle in programs for the PDP8s and PDP11s, > but it seems to be lost forever. > > Not being a software person it takes me hours to write and debug the > simplest routines. Is there a site with a list of toggle in maintenance > programs? > > > I used to work on DEC systems of all types, loved the PDP-11, cause you could get right into it, not like VAX, which was huge and almost incomprehensible. I wrote button-in test programs as needed, below is a useful address checker, mostly used on instals, found bad switches giving wrong addresses. Used a similar one to trap vector addresses, find the wrong ones. I/O PAGE ADDRESS LISTER PROGRAM ------------------------------- 1000 012706 001000 MOV #1000, SP 1004 012737 001054 000004 MOV #TRAP,@#4 1012 012700 002000 MOV #2000,R0 1016 010001 MOV R0,R1 1020 005020 LOOP: CLR @(R0)+ 1022 020027 006000 CMP R0,#6000 1026 001374 BNE LOOP 1030 012700 160000 MOV #160000,R0 1034 005710 LOOP1: TST @(R0) 1036 010021 MOV R0,@(R1)+ 1040 062700 000002 LOOP2: ADD #2,R0 1044 020027 177776 CMP R0,#177776 1050 001371 BNE LOOP1 1052 000000 HALT 1054 022626 TRAP: CMP @(R6)+,@(R6)+ 1056 000770 BR LOOP2 THIS PROGRAM USES TRAP TO 4 ON UNIBUS TIMEOUT TO FIND ALL VALID UNIBUS ADDRESSES ON THE SYSTEM UNDER TEST. THE LIST OF ADDRESSES WILL BE STORED IN A TABLE COMMENCING AT LOCN 2000. THERE ARE SOME LARGE BLOCKS OF ADDRESSES WHICH SHOULD NOT BE PRINTED OUT. eg. 165000-165776 173000-173776. TO IDENTIFY THE ADDRESSES LISTED, SEE THE BACK PAGES OF THE PERIPHERAL HANDBOOK. SAMPLE RESULT:- SOUTHDOWN PRESS 11/24 OAKLEIGH 11/70 160200-160376 ???? 160120-160126 DZ11 160770-160776 AD01? 165000-165776 BOOT DIAGS 164200-164376 ???? 170200-170376 U/BUS MAP 165000-165776 BOOT DIAGS 172202-172376 SUPER PAR/PDR0-7 170200-170376 U/BUS MAP 172440-172476 RH70/TM03/TE16 172100 MS11-P CSR 172516 MMR3 172300-172316 KERNEL PDR 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES 172340-172356 KERNEL PAR 176700-176752 RH70/RP06 172516 MMR3 177546 LINE CLOCK 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES 177560-177566 CONSOLE 176500-176506 DL11 177570 SWR 176700-176746 EMULEX SC21 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2 177546 KW11-L 177600-177616 USER DATA PDR0-7 177560-177566 CONSOLE 177620-177636 USER INS PDR0-7 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2 177640-177656 USER INS PAR0-7 177600-177616 USER PDR 177660-177676 USER DATA PAR0-7 177640-177656 USER PAR 177740-177752 MEMORY REGS 177734-177736 LMA LO/HI WORD 177760-177776 CPU REGS 177766 CPU ERR REG 11/23 SYSTEM EXAMPLE:- --------------------- 172300-172316 MEM MAN KERNEL PDR 172340-172356 MEM MAN KERNEL PAR 172516- MMR3 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES 176500-176526 DLV11-J (3 PORTS) 177170-177172 RXV21 177546 KWV11-L 177560-177566 DLV11-J (CONSOLE) 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2 177600-177616 MEM MAN USER PDR 177640-177656 MEM MAN USER PAR Lionel. * From lionelj at labyrinth.net.au Thu May 26 05:50:57 2016 From: lionelj at labyrinth.net.au (Lionel Johnson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 20:50:57 +1000 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5746D511.8050005@labyrinth.net.au> On 25/05/2016 5:06 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I used to have a notebook of toggle in programs for the PDP8s and PDP11s, > but it seems to be lost forever. > > Not being a software person it takes me hours to write and debug the > simplest routines. Is there a site with a list of toggle in maintenance > programs? > > I used to work on DEC systems of all types, loved the PDP-11, cause you could get right into it, not like VAX, which was huge and almost incomprehensible. I wrote button-in test programs as needed, below is a useful address checker, mostly used on instals, found bad switches giving wrong addresses. Used a similar one to trap vector addresses, find the wrong ones. I/O PAGE ADDRESS LISTER PROGRAM ------------------------------- 1000 012706 001000 MOV #1000, SP 1004 012737 001054 000004 MOV #TRAP,@#4 1012 012700 002000 MOV #2000,R0 1016 010001 MOV R0,R1 1020 005020 LOOP: CLR @(R0)+ 1022 020027 006000 CMP R0,#6000 1026 001374 BNE LOOP 1030 012700 160000 MOV #160000,R0 1034 005710 LOOP1: TST @(R0) 1036 010021 MOV R0,@(R1)+ 1040 062700 000002 LOOP2: ADD #2,R0 1044 020027 177776 CMP R0,#177776 1050 001371 BNE LOOP1 1052 000000 HALT 1054 022626 TRAP: CMP @(R6)+,@(R6)+ 1056 000770 BR LOOP2 THIS PROGRAM USES TRAP TO 4 ON UNIBUS TIMEOUT TO FIND ALL VALID UNIBUS ADDRESSES ON THE SYSTEM UNDER TEST. THE LIST OF ADDRESSES WILL BE STORED IN A TABLE COMMENCING AT LOCN 2000. THERE ARE SOME LARGE BLOCKS OF ADDRESSES WHICH SHOULD NOT BE PRINTED OUT. eg. 165000-165776 173000-173776. TO IDENTIFY THE ADDRESSES LISTED, SEE THE BACK PAGES OF THE PERIPHERAL HANDBOOK. SAMPLE RESULT:- SOUTHDOWN PRESS 11/24 OAKLEIGH 11/70 160200-160376 ???? 160120-160126 DZ11 160770-160776 AD01? 165000-165776 BOOT DIAGS 164200-164376 ???? 170200-170376 U/BUS MAP 165000-165776 BOOT DIAGS 172202-172376 SUPER PAR/PDR0-7 170200-170376 U/BUS MAP 172440-172476 RH70/TM03/TE16 172100 MS11-P CSR 172516 MMR3 172300-172316 KERNEL PDR 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES 172340-172356 KERNEL PAR 176700-176752 RH70/RP06 172516 MMR3 177546 LINE CLOCK 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES 177560-177566 CONSOLE 176500-176506 DL11 177570 SWR 176700-176746 EMULEX SC21 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2 177546 KW11-L 177600-177616 USER DATA PDR0-7 177560-177566 CONSOLE 177620-177636 USER INS PDR0-7 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2 177640-177656 USER INS PAR0-7 177600-177616 USER PDR 177660-177676 USER DATA PAR0-7 177640-177656 USER PAR 177740-177752 MEMORY REGS 177734-177736 LMA LO/HI WORD 177760-177776 CPU REGS 177766 CPU ERR REG 11/23 SYSTEM EXAMPLE:- --------------------- 172300-172316 MEM MAN KERNEL PDR 172340-172356 MEM MAN KERNEL PAR 172516- MMR3 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES 176500-176526 DLV11-J (3 PORTS) 177170-177172 RXV21 177546 KWV11-L 177560-177566 DLV11-J (CONSOLE) 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2 177600-177616 MEM MAN USER PDR 177640-177656 MEM MAN USER PAR Lionel. * From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 26 07:47:26 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 07:47:26 -0500 Subject: equipment & memorabilia available Message-ID: <000c01d1b74c$c18c2600$44a47200$@classiccmp.org> This one is a little sketchy; location is Mont Vernon, NH. Situation is a lady's husband passed away and shes going through all his DEC stuff. She would like to sell it, but has no idea what it is all worth. I do not have a list that is really useful, so someone would need to contact her, go onsite, and see what all is there and make an offer. Below are just tidbits from several emails we exchanged. If you're interested and local to that area and willing to take on a "project recovery", drop me a line off-list. Please do not respond if you just want to cherry pick one or two items unless you're fully prepared to at least help her find a home for the parts you don't want. Best, J I have a pdp 11 in the basement and lots of old mouldy documentation......and who knows what else? I'm trying to clean it all out. also have an LA36, and who knows what else. My husband died in January and I've a whole house to readjust to. I can get you the model, etc. soon. I live in Mont Vernon, NH. Thanks for answerig...nice to know someone cares about the old stuff. I scoped out the basement for the pdp-11 and here's what I've come up with so far: 26 tape cylinders 12 RL02 1 Decscope 1 rx01 1 decdatasystem box 1 unknown grey metal box 1 Decwriter II 5 RT-11 oranger binders several LS11 System Service Manuals other binders, etc. I would like to sell this, but have no idea as to value, and would also like to find someone who wants them...so what do you think someone would pay for this? Also found a copy of a RSTS auto license plate with a note to (XXXX - husbands name) from Simon Szeto "for someone who also loves RSTS" ahhh...the good old days. Were you a part of them? I've found more documentation, old badges, bumper stickers, etc. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu May 26 07:52:56 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 08:52:56 -0400 Subject: Question about UNIBUS terminators, M9300 In-Reply-To: <20160526103932.C7E2518C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160526103932.C7E2518C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > There are jumpers on this card. W1, W2, W. I did not find any > specific > > examples online of scenarios for the jumpers > > ... > > I think I get why one would remove the W2 jumper but if W1 is removed > > (open) instead can someone give me an example scenario for when you'd > > want to use this card "for beginning of non processor bus > termination". > > Can someone give me an example of when you'd do this? > > The device the M9300 was invented for was probably the RH11-AB, which is > where one most often finds them. The RH11 is an UNIBUS device which is a > MASSBUS controller; the RH11-AB has connectors for _two_ UNIBI (so one > RH11-AB can be 'in' two PDP-11's at the same time; i.e. all the devices > connected to that controller can be accessed from either machine). > > If it's only connected to a single CPU, though, what does one do with the > second UNIBUS? That's where the M9300 comes in. It simulated the > NPG-granting > section of a CPU, and when jumpered to do that, it goes at the _start_ of a > UNIBUS - e.g. the second UNIBUS in the RH11-AB. (Leave all the jumpers in, > and it functions like an M930, and can go at either end). > > You can find a description of its use in the RH11-AB, as well as a > description of how the M9300 works, in the "RH11-AB Option Description" > document (available online), starting on page 4-32. > > I can't conceive of any use for one in most PDP-11's, though (outside an > RH11-AB, of course). > > Noel > OK. Yes, the system I have was set up for RH-11. Here is the layout starting from slot 9/11 of the expansion cabinet of the 11/40 I am working on 9/11: M9202 (1-2) 11: M7297 (3-4) 11: 7296 (5-6) 12: M7295 13: M7294 14: M5904 (3-4) 15: M5904 (3-4) 16: M5904 (3-4) 17: GC (4) 18: GC (4) 18: M9300 (1-2) 19/21: M9202 (1-2) 19: GC (4) 21: M7248 (3) M7212 (4) M7212(5)M7212 (6) 22: M784 (5) M783 (6) 23: M7213 (3-4) M785 (5) M785 (6) 24: EXPANSION CABLE (1-2) 24: "small card" (4), M785 (5) M785(6) 26: M9700 (3), M105 (4), M7226 (5-6) 27: M7821 (4) 28: M117 (4) 29: M002 (4) 31: CABLE FROM 24 31: M7258 (3-6) 32: M8094 33: M8098 34: M7800 YA (3-6) 31: - 32: - 33: - -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Thu May 26 08:24:34 2016 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 08:24:34 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > > > On Tue, 24 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > > >> It probably still impressed the suits when they walked the data center. >> I've done data center tours with row after row of HP or Dell x86 servers >> and it's not much to look at. >> >> -Swift >> >> > It's true, modern computers are pretty dull to look at, but you can still > find some stunning views in the data center from time to time. > > A fair bit of what I manage is storage and I have several rows laid out > such that there is basically nothing but racks of JBOD disk down all one > side, or even both sides of an entire row. When my end users make the > equipment sing, it's fun to switch off the lights on the floor and watch it > dance. > > All the JBODs could be used as a crude dot matrix to spell out a phrase. I > need to write a little script for that ... ;) > > Best, > > Sean > > Swift, see if you can track down a digital copy of "Programming Univac Systems - Instruction Manual 1". I think the copyright was '53. In the hardcopy version there's a pullout of the complete control panel layout with a description of every switch and indicator. The manual also goes into enough detail to walk you through startup, the instruction set, and how to operate the machine. Pretty cool stuff. While the Univac II was essentially the same machine (but with core instead of mercury), the control console became a little more refined and some photos I've seen show a nixie tube display in place of certain lamps. I never have found a reference to those refinements. -C From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 26 08:38:43 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 09:38:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question about UNIBUS terminators, M9300 Message-ID: <20160526133843.9D57318C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > Here is the layout starting from slot 9/11 of the expansion cabinet Just slot numbers by themselves aren't much use, because if there are any non-UNIBUS backplanes (e.g. custom backplanes for core memory, for an RH11 - which has its own custom backplane, you can't use a regular SPC/MUD 'UNIBUS' backplane to hold it), we need to know what those are, and where. Note that many boards can only go in a specific slot in a custom backplane, and vice verse - some slots in such backplanes will only hold a specific kind of card. Taking the RH11-AB as an example: it comes with a 9-slot custom backplane. Hex RH11 boards M7294 and M7295 go in slots 3 and 2, respectively (and nowhere else, and nothing else can go in those slots). UNIBUS A in is in slot 1, connectors A/B; UNIBUS A out is in slot 9, connectors A/B. UNIBUS B in is in slot 8, connectors A/B; UNIBUS A out is in slot 7, connectors A/B. The RH11 backplane has some slots which are not needed/used by the RH11; those are wired as SPC slots; slots 7, 8 and 9, connectors C-F (the A-B connectors in these slots are UNIBUS, per above), are SPC slots. That means that they need _at least_ a G727 single-width card (the little square grant continuity cards which jumper BG4-7) in them if there is no other device plugged in. If the NPG wire-wrap jumper on the backplane for that slot has been removed, you'd have to use a G7273 dual-width jumper card, to jumper NPG also. So, looking at your list; first, a comment about naming: 9/11: M9202 (1-2) 11: M7297 (3-4) 11: 7296 (5-6) This looks like slot 1 of an RH11 backplane. Standard practise it to use letters for the vertical, and numbers for the horizontal, for positive identification. So standard nomenclature would be to say that the M9202 is in connectors A/B, the M7297 in C/D, and the M7296 in E/F. (Individual pins are named xYZn, where 'x' is the slot, 1-N [where N is typically 4 or 9]; 'Y' is the connector, A-F; 'Y' is the pin, A-V using the 'DEC alphabet'; and 'n' is the side, 1-2. The NPG jumper is CA1-CB1 in all SPC/MUD slots, i.e. 1CA1-1CB1 in slot 1.) The stuff starting in slot '21' looks like a DB11 UNIBUS repeater, but I have no idea how large a backplane that is, and what the various slots/connectors in it are used for. It's almost certainly custom wired. It looks like slot 31 starts another backplane. Given the cards that are plugged in (LP11, DL11, etc), it's probably a 'UNIBUS' backplane (i.e. SPC or MUD slots). Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 26 08:51:30 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 09:51:30 -0400 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <5746666C.4000804@sydex.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> <5746476C.9090404@sydex.com> <57464E89.9070001@gmail.com> <574654B8.1010406@sydex.com> <57465DCA.50304@gmail.com> <5746666C.4000804@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5E0B64BC-D2AF-4EF9-B32E-0CF780D0E364@comcast.net> > On May 25, 2016, at 10:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 05/25/2016 07:22 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > >> Speaking of dumps I remember an engineer friend telling me that at >> the university that he went to they had a CDC Cyber system and they >> discovered that you could initiate a dump from any workstation, and >> the system would dump out to the printer and while it was dumping the >> whole system came to a halt.... guess what the students where fond >> of doing...... It would seem to me that something like that should >> have been more restricted. > > At least in SCOPE and KRONOS, DMP was the command to dump memory--but if > initiated from a user's control point, it would dump only the user's FL, > not the whole system. So the story seems to be a bit apocryphal to me. > Most university systems charged not only by the CPU second, but also > by the number of lines printed and the number of cards punched. Apart from that, it's not credible for another reason. CDC Cyber operating systems always spooled printer output to disk (unlike OS/360 which did it in some variants but not others -- notably not OS/360 PCP which I used since our 360/44 wasn't big enough to do better). So a call to DMP would run only long enough do perform the formatting of whatever memory was being dumped, writing the resulting text to the disk file named "OUTPUT" for the invoking process ("control point"). paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 26 08:54:38 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 09:54:38 -0400 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <57464E89.9070001@gmail.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> <5746476C.9090404@sydex.com> <57464E89.9070001@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On May 25, 2016, at 9:16 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > >> ... > Yeah I watch some of the large system guys disassemble and repair trains and of course when you put them back together you had to make sure the slugs where all in the right order. We had customers that would buy 3rd party ribbons that where practically dripping with ink that would gum up everything in the machine. Speaking of ribbons, in college I occasionally used a type of ribbon I've never seen on line printers since: a film ribbon. Think of the "letter quality" ribbons used on professional typewriters, or daisy wheel printers, a thin plastic film with some carbon-like coating on one side. Now make one the width of a line printer ribbon. Our 360/44 normally used a regular cloth ribbon, but a film ribbon could be mounted if desired. I did so to print my honor's thesis, using the film ribbon and the upper/lower case print train (TN train?) to print the final text (from RUNOFF on our PDP-11 system, which had no line printer). paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu May 26 09:12:16 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 10:12:16 -0400 Subject: Question about UNIBUS terminators, M9300 In-Reply-To: <20160526133843.9D57318C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160526133843.9D57318C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > Here is the layout starting from slot 9/11 of the expansion cabinet > > Just slot numbers by themselves aren't much use, because if there are any > non-UNIBUS backplanes (e.g. custom backplanes for core memory, for an RH11 > - > which has its own custom backplane, you can't use a regular SPC/MUD > 'UNIBUS' > backplane to hold it), we need to know what those are, and where. > > Note that many boards can only go in a specific slot in a custom backplane, > and vice verse - some slots in such backplanes will only hold a specific > kind > of card. > > Taking the RH11-AB as an example: it comes with a 9-slot custom backplane. > Hex > RH11 boards M7294 and M7295 go in slots 3 and 2, respectively (and nowhere > else, and nothing else can go in those slots). UNIBUS A in is in slot 1, > connectors A/B; UNIBUS A out is in slot 9, connectors A/B. UNIBUS B in is > in > slot 8, connectors A/B; UNIBUS A out is in slot 7, connectors A/B. > > > > It looks like slot 31 starts another backplane. Given the cards that are > plugged in (LP11, DL11, etc), it's probably a 'UNIBUS' backplane (i.e. SPC > or > MUD slots). > > Noel > Thank you for taking a few to send this information. I was just curious about the role of the 9300, to explain the configuration I am working with. I am working to get up to speed on UNIBUS architecture. For now, I am going to focus on getting any DL11-x serial card or two running...and maybe a configure one to read diagnostics from the teletype the other for VT220 @ 2400/9600. AS I had mentioned earlier I had this system running PDPGUI but my previously-working DL11-W pooped out. I have the manual, need to diagnose fix or replace. I am also working on DL11-x (M7800-x) cards on hand. Bill From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 26 09:33:53 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 09:33:53 -0500 Subject: equipment & memorabilia available In-Reply-To: <000c01d1b74c$c18c2600$44a47200$@classiccmp.org> References: <000c01d1b74c$c18c2600$44a47200$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001301d1b75b$a08bf9d0$e1a3ed70$@classiccmp.org> A listmember has stepped forward to take over the Mont Vernon NH haul. Best, J From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 26 11:27:25 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 09:27:25 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use Message-ID: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this morning too: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 extract: The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses eight-inch floppy disks". From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 26 11:35:57 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 11:35:57 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <20160526100252.EFC3118C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160526100252.EFC3118C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <574725ED.7020403@pico-systems.com> On 05/26/2016 05:02 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > In addition to reading/writing memory locations, and basic machine control > (boot, start, stop, continue, single-step, etc), some machines had additional > functionality, but what it was (if any) varied widely from machine to machine. > > Most IBM 360's had "ripple tests". You could select local store (register set), main store or control store. Then, when you pressed start, you could read every location of control store and optionally halt if a parity error occurred. For local or main store, it would write alternately all ones and all zeros and read back and check parity. This was a quick check that major components of the machine were in operating order. (I don't recall if you needed the CE key to do these tests.) Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 26 11:43:05 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 11:43:05 -0500 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> <5746476C.9090404@sydex.com> <57464E89.9070001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57472799.9030300@pico-systems.com> On 05/26/2016 08:54 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> > Speaking of ribbons, in college I occasionally used a type of ribbon I've never seen on line printers since: a film ribbon. Think of the "letter quality" ribbons used on professional typewriters, or daisy wheel printers, a thin plastic film with some carbon-like coating on one side. Now make one the width of a line printer ribbon. > > Our 360/44 normally used a regular cloth ribbon, but a film ribbon could be mounted if desired. I did so to print my honor's thesis, using the film ribbon and the upper/lower case print train (TN train?) to print the final text (from RUNOFF on our PDP-11 system, which had no line printer). > Yes, that's exactly the purpose they were for. You mounted the text train and a film ribbon, and got a fairly nice looking printout. IBM's early manuals were all printed this way, the look was pretty iconic. The printed output was then photographed to make offset printing plates. (Later they used IBM composer word processing printers, and they looked nicer, with proportional spacing.) Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 26 11:48:21 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 09:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: > A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this morning too: > http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 > extract: > The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated > intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft > "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses > eight-inch floppy disks". "This system remains in use because, in short, it still works," Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency. And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware and software, to put an end to that. Windows10 can change that. "According to the report, the US treasury also needed to upgrade its systems, which it said was using "assembly language code - a computer language initially used in the 1950s and typically tied to the hardware for which it was developed"." And, THAT is the reasoning for replacement? Not even an understanding of what assembly language IS. "Nobody programs in assembly language any more, nor ever will again" - Clancy/Harvey "Eight-inch floppy disks date back to the early days of computer systems" The author is unaware of the many decades of computers, including military, prior to floppy disks. Mag tape? EAM (punch-cards, etc.)? From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 26 11:53:46 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 11:53:46 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <005101d1b76f$2b9171a0$82b454e0$@classiccmp.org> Brent wrote... ------ The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses eight-inch floppy disks".= ------ The series-1 makes such a lovable "Bleet" sound each time you press one of the front panel membrane buttons :) I can confirm first hand that HP1000 M/E/F systems are still in very active use both on land and on (and under) sea by US forces. Best, J From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 26 12:10:36 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 10:10:36 -0700 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <5E0B64BC-D2AF-4EF9-B32E-0CF780D0E364@comcast.net> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> <5746476C.9090404@sydex.com> <57464E89.9070001@gmail.com> <574654B8.1010406@sydex.com> <57465DCA.50304@gmail.com> <5746666C.4000804@sydex.com> <5E0B64BC-D2AF-4EF9-B32E-0CF780D0E364@comcast.net> Message-ID: <57472E0C.2040503@sydex.com> On 05/26/2016 06:51 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Apart from that, it's not credible for another reason. CDC Cyber > operating systems always spooled printer output to disk (unlike > OS/360 which did it in some variants but not others -- notably not > OS/360 PCP which I used since our 360/44 wasn't big enough to do > better). So a call to DMP would run only long enough do perform the > formatting of whatever memory was being dumped, writing the resulting > text to the disk file named "OUTPUT" for the invoking process > ("control point"). It *is* possible for a job to REQUEST access to an online printer under both SCOPE and KRONOS. But it requires operator intervention, IIRC. Deadstart (postmortem) dumps, of course, didn't use any intermediate programs--they dumped directly to the printer. IIRC, you could also dump to tape. --Chuck From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu May 26 12:19:51 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 18:19:51 +0100 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 26/05/2016 17:48, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio >> this morning too: >> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 >> extract: >> The report said that the Department of Defence systems that >> co-ordinated >> intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker >> support aircraft >> "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - >> and uses >> eight-inch floppy disks". > > "This system remains in use because, in short, it still works," > Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency. > > And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware > and software, to put an end to that. Windows10 can change that. > > > "According to the report, the US treasury also needed to upgrade its > systems, which it said was using "assembly language code - a computer > language initially used in the 1950s and typically tied to the > hardware for which it was developed"." > > And, THAT is the reasoning for replacement? > Not even an understanding of what assembly language IS. > "Nobody programs in assembly language any more, nor ever will > again" - Clancy/Harvey > > > "Eight-inch floppy disks date back to the early days of computer systems" > > The author is unaware of the many decades of computers, including > military, prior to floppy disks. Mag tape? EAM (punch-cards, etc.)? > > Sounds like good security to me. Try hacking that lot. R From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 26 12:22:35 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 17:22:35 +0000 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> , Message-ID: It is interesting that the military may not be able to use W10. I doubt it can meet tempest requirements without major changes. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Rod Smallwood Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 10:19:51 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: vintage computers in active use On 26/05/2016 17:48, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio >> this morning too: >> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 >> extract: >> The report said that the Department of Defence systems that >> co-ordinated >> intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker >> support aircraft >> "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - >> and uses >> eight-inch floppy disks". > > "This system remains in use because, in short, it still works," > Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency. > > And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware > and software, to put an end to that. Windows10 can change that. > > > "According to the report, the US treasury also needed to upgrade its > systems, which it said was using "assembly language code - a computer > language initially used in the 1950s and typically tied to the > hardware for which it was developed"." > > And, THAT is the reasoning for replacement? > Not even an understanding of what assembly language IS. > "Nobody programs in assembly language any more, nor ever will > again" - Clancy/Harvey > > > "Eight-inch floppy disks date back to the early days of computer systems" > > The author is unaware of the many decades of computers, including > military, prior to floppy disks. Mag tape? EAM (punch-cards, etc.)? > > Sounds like good security to me. Try hacking that lot. R From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu May 26 12:30:53 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 19:30:53 +0200 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <001801d1b774$5b4df4e0$11e9dea0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Fred Cisin > Verzonden: donderdag 26 mei 2016 18:48 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: vintage computers in active use > > On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this morning > too: > > http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 > > extract: > > The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co- > ordinated > > intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support > aircraft > > "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and > uses > > eight-inch floppy disks". > > "This system remains in use because, in short, it still works," > Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency. > > And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware and > software, to put an end to that. Windows10 can change that. > > > "According to the report, the US treasury also needed to upgrade its systems, > which it said was using "assembly language code - a computer language initially > used in the 1950s and typically tied to the hardware for which it was > developed"." > > And, THAT is the reasoning for replacement? > Not even an understanding of what assembly language IS. > "Nobody programs in assembly language any more, nor ever will again" - > Clancy/Harvey > > > "Eight-inch floppy disks date back to the early days of computer systems" > > The author is unaware of the many decades of computers, including military, > prior to floppy disks. Mag tape? EAM (punch-cards, etc.)? But doesn't that be an implementation of the famous "don't ask don't tell strategy" ? -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 26 12:06:03 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 10:06:03 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> On 05/26/2016 09:48 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > "According to the report, the US treasury also needed to upgrade its > systems, which it said was using "assembly language code - a computer > language initially used in the 1950s and typically tied to the hardware > for which it was developed"." Assembly is still used on many lower-end MCUs. It still offers a big bang for the buck, particularly on minimal hardware. "typically tied to hardware"? Can anyone cite a case where it was not? Not to be confused with "machine language", which was also used--i.e. direct coding of instructions without the aid of mnemonics or symbols. Doesn't the Series/1 use magazine-fed floppies? Not exactly the same as handling the disks individually. --Chuck From db at db.net Thu May 26 12:32:50 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 13:32:50 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20160526173250.GA42346@night.db.net> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 06:19:51PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > On 26/05/2016 17:48, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio > >> this morning too: > >> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 A friend of mine had a collection of PDP-8s years ago during the 70s. Ontario Hydro asked him if he could sell them a few. I always wondered what they were doing with them, today I think I found out. http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/01/000/1000086.pdf -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 26 12:33:36 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 10:33:36 -0700 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <57464E10.3080802@pico-systems.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57464E10.3080802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2016-May-25, at 6:14 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/25/2016 05:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Jon Elson >> >> >> I interned at IBM Bermuda, and they had a 360/20 as their main service >> >> bureau machine; it had (IIRC) ... a 4301 printer. >> >> > I'm guessing, maybe, that would be a 1403 printer? >> >> Ah, right you are! The old grey cells are, well, old! ;-) >> >> Those printers had an amazingly long life! They were first introduced in 1959 >> with the 1401 computer, and, like I said, the brand spanking new System 3 >> they got in ca. 1976 came with one! I wonder when IBM stopped producing >> them? >> >> > I believe IBM recycled them from retired machines for an amazing length of time. Certainly, a number of 1403s were in use on 370 and even later systems. I was recently surprised while digging at bitsavers to find out how ancient the 2821 controller was - all SMS cards and some very ingenious magnetic transformer tricks to do the address selection of the core stack with as few transistors as possible. (The 2821 was the controller for the card read/punch as well as the 1403 printer family.) A 1403 was in use at UBC for undergrad batch services up till the end of that service in 1979/80. I used to get a kick out of pushing the button to raise the cabinet shroud. The big shroud would rattle and shake as the motor-chain drive raised it to expose the print mechanism, all while it continued to print, and the noise level would go up by some tens of db. At least I presume it was a 1403, it looked like just like this: http://ibm-1401.info/1403Cable-PP-04-.jpg From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 26 12:42:08 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 10:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> "According to the report, the US treasury also needed to upgrade its >> systems, which it said was using "assembly language code - a computer >> language initially used in the 1950s and typically tied to the hardware >> for which it was developed"." On Thu, 26 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Assembly is still used on many lower-end MCUs. It still offers a big > bang for the buck, particularly on minimal hardware. > "typically tied to hardware"? Can anyone cite a case where it was not? C Programming Language? :-) I had words with Clancy and Harvey. While need may be diminshed, there is never a complete elimination of the need to pay attention to, and optimize near, the level of hardware. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jws at jwsss.com Thu May 26 12:46:50 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 10:46:50 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 5/26/2016 10:22 AM, dwight wrote: > It is interesting that the military may not be able to use W10. > I doubt it can meet tempest requirements without major changes. > Dwight > There is a lot of phone home crap in windows. A friend who otherwise had not worried about such things is starting to formulate a firewall (reverse) to put in for customers to block outbound communications with the mother ship. I suspect they were there before, but they are there a lot in W10. He specifically is going to get with port number blocking outbound, and some inbound crap, but still will hopefully preserve the windows updates. There seems to be an effort to get this going he is working with. On the topic of the military, they were doing things to thermally record the floppies as well so they could not be altered between the source and destinations. They never came up with a newer technology they liked to replace that capability on either tapes or floppies. They used 7 track tapes for Nike Ajax targeting data that could not be erased due to how they were recorded. I worked with a sales rep with an early optical media vendor and the Pentagon brass went nuts over it, but the vendor's technology was proprietary, and they didn't want to jump from one hard to deal with tech to another. The rep was a retired petty officer, and he said he about crapped when he went into the meeting with all generals and admirals and the like. Still had the averse reaction to brass from his old salt days. thanks Jim From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 26 12:47:37 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 12:47:37 -0500 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57464E10.3080802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <574736B9.3070104@pico-systems.com> On 05/26/2016 12:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-May-25, at 6:14 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 05/25/2016 05:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> > From: Jon Elson >>> >>> >> I interned at IBM Bermuda, and they had a 360/20 as their main service >>> >> bureau machine; it had (IIRC) ... a 4301 printer. >>> >>> > I'm guessing, maybe, that would be a 1403 printer? >>> >>> Ah, right you are! The old grey cells are, well, old! ;-) >>> >>> Those printers had an amazingly long life! They were first introduced in 1959 >>> with the 1401 computer, and, like I said, the brand spanking new System 3 >>> they got in ca. 1976 came with one! I wonder when IBM stopped producing >>> them? >>> >>> >> I believe IBM recycled them from retired machines for an amazing length of time. Certainly, a number of 1403s were in use on 370 and even later systems. I was recently surprised while digging at bitsavers to find out how ancient the 2821 controller was - all SMS cards and some very ingenious magnetic transformer tricks to do the address selection of the core stack with as few transistors as possible. (The 2821 was the controller for the card read/punch as well as the 1403 printer family.) > > A 1403 was in use at UBC for undergrad batch services up till the end of that service in 1979/80. > > I used to get a kick out of pushing the button to raise the cabinet shroud. The big shroud would rattle and shake as the motor-chain drive raised it to expose the print mechanism, all while it continued to print, and the noise level would go up by some tens of db. > > At least I presume it was a 1403, it looked like just like this: > http://ibm-1401.info/1403Cable-PP-04-.jpg > > Yes, that would be the 1403-N1, the top of the line. 1100 LPM, and had the motorized cover and totally enclosed cabinet, for noise suppression. The cover also raised automatically whenever the printer had a check, mostly for out of paper. That could happen in barely 15 minutes or so when printing less-dense output. Jon From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu May 26 12:51:01 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 10:51:01 -0700 Subject: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect? Message-ID: Self explanatory- asking other computer collectors here to see if anyone has experience. Will there be any trouble bringing them across? They look weird and big, but they have no real commercial value and are just going to my personal computer collection. Anything I need? I think both were manufactured in the US. Thanks- - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 26 12:57:23 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 13:57:23 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1055727D-BC05-49F1-A35F-A40DEA8F68C6@comcast.net> I took a quick look at that GAO report. It clearly is not all that accurate. In a discussion of "old" systems, it mentions a system with "reported age 52 years" but it "runs on windows server 2008 and is programmed in Java". Yeah, right. I wonder if it's ignorance speaking, or an attempt to weasel more taxpayer money out of unsuspecting politicians. A number of other examples are similar. For example, a "56 year old" IRS system that actually runs on an IBM z series machine from 2010. paul From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 26 13:03:46 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 11:03:46 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <20160526173250.GA42346@night.db.net> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526173250.GA42346@night.db.net> Message-ID: <91463129-5BD6-4EF0-9B53-8B5D5B1661C1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-26, at 10:32 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 06:19:51PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> On 26/05/2016 17:48, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio >>>> this morning too: >>>> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 > > A friend of mine had a collection of PDP-8s years ago during the 70s. > Ontario Hydro asked him if he could sell them a few. I always wondered > what they were doing with them, today I think I found out. > > http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/01/000/1000086.pdf All this reminds me of the systems I've missed out on: A few years ago, a high school acquaintance I chanced to meet and who was working in operations control at a local oil refinery told me the large multi-rack PDP-11 system for process control had been decommissioned and dumped about a year earlier. "Ya, that's too bad, you could have had it." Around 10 years ago, an acquaintance from the radio museum who worked at the telco told me about a PDP-8 used for automated dial testing had been discarded a couple years earlier. Don't know what model PDP-8 it was but as he described it was used for rotary dial testing, so it was probably a pretty early model. "Ya, that's too bad, you could have had it." Around 10 year ago, I failed to organise a truck to pick up an 11/83 system decommissioned from the telco. "You idiot." I wish I knew what happened to the Foxboro system at the other local oil refinery when that refinery was decommissioned. I should ask a fellow I know who works at the local cyclotron built in the 70s whether any of the original control system is still there, but I doubt it. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu May 26 13:04:14 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 11:04:14 -0700 Subject: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D01EAC2-1FCC-45E7-95D2-46C9D3C611AD@shiresoft.com> My DS570 came from Canada. The biggest issue is to have a shipper that is well versed in dealing with international shipping and knows how to deal with customs. Be clear on the customs/shipping documents about the country of origin and the value. You will need a bill of lading. Be warned, declaring a value of $0 will raise eyebrows. There are also ?keywords? you need to avoid. If I recall, I used UPS freight. TTFN - Guy > On May 26, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > > Self explanatory- asking other computer collectors here to see if anyone > has experience. > > Will there be any trouble bringing them across? > > They look weird and big, but they have no real commercial value and are > just going to my personal computer collection. > > Anything I need? I think both were manufactured in the US. > > Thanks- > > - Ian > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 26 13:13:33 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 19:13:33 +0100 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <00be01d1b77a$50f32460$f2d96d20$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile > Sent: 26 May 2016 18:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: vintage computers in active use > > > > On 5/26/2016 10:22 AM, dwight wrote: > > It is interesting that the military may not be able to use W10. > > I doubt it can meet tempest requirements without major changes. > > Dwight > > > There is a lot of phone home crap in windows. A friend who otherwise had not > worried about such things is starting to formulate a firewall > (reverse) to put in for customers to block outbound communications with the > mother ship. I suspect they were there before, but they are there a lot in W10. > > He specifically is going to get with port number blocking outbound, and some > inbound crap, but still will hopefully preserve the windows updates. There > seems to be an effort to get this going he is working with. > But it generally uses 443 and 80 so it can get through firewalls. It also tends to use "normal" Microsoft server addresses. It is also often on port 443. There is wasting my time, and wasting my time. > On the topic of the military, they were doing things to thermally record the > floppies as well so they could not be altered between the source and > destinations. They never came up with a newer technology they liked to > replace that capability on either tapes or floppies. > > They used 7 track tapes for Nike Ajax targeting data that could not be erased > due to how they were recorded. > > I worked with a sales rep with an early optical media vendor and the Pentagon > brass went nuts over it, but the vendor's technology was proprietary, and they > didn't want to jump from one hard to deal with tech to another. > > The rep was a retired petty officer, and he said he about crapped when he went > into the meeting with all generals and admirals and the like. > Still had the averse reaction to brass from his old salt days. > > thanks > Jim From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu May 26 13:17:30 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 11:17:30 -0700 Subject: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect? In-Reply-To: <4D01EAC2-1FCC-45E7-95D2-46C9D3C611AD@shiresoft.com> References: <4D01EAC2-1FCC-45E7-95D2-46C9D3C611AD@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Sorry to clarify I am bringing this back in person On Thursday, May 26, 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > My DS570 came from Canada. The biggest issue is to have a shipper that is > well versed in dealing with international shipping and knows how to deal > with > customs. Be clear on the customs/shipping documents about the country of > origin and the value. You will need a bill of lading. Be warned, > declaring a > value of $0 will raise eyebrows. There are also ?keywords? you need to > avoid. > > If I recall, I used UPS freight. > > TTFN - Guy > > > On May 26, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Ian Finder > wrote: > > > > Self explanatory- asking other computer collectors here to see if anyone > > has experience. > > > > Will there be any trouble bringing them across? > > > > They look weird and big, but they have no real commercial value and are > > just going to my personal computer collection. > > > > Anything I need? I think both were manufactured in the US. > > > > Thanks- > > > > - Ian > > > > > > -- > > Ian Finder > > (206) 395-MIPS > > ian.finder at gmail.com > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 26 13:18:24 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 19:18:24 +0100 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> , Message-ID: <00c001d1b77a$fe338f20$fa9aad60$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight > Sent: 26 May 2016 18:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: vintage computers in active use > > It is interesting that the military may not be able to use W10. > I doubt it can meet tempest requirements without major changes. > Dwight I suspect the enterprise version has sufficient controls. It has Common Criteria evaluations... https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd229319.aspx When some at work (UK Local Government) said he didn't think Microsoft Cloud was secure and we shouldn't use it, I pointed out that it been evaluated and certified by some one in higher authority and he couldn't reject it on those grounds... https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/ukgovernment/2014/06/11/faq-what-microsoft- azure-and-microsoft-office-365-official-accreditation-means-for-your-organis ation/ Dave G4UGM From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu May 26 13:19:38 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 11:19:38 -0700 Subject: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect? In-Reply-To: References: <4D01EAC2-1FCC-45E7-95D2-46C9D3C611AD@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: You will still need the information and documentation because you are ?importing? the item. A bill of sale and all of the custom forms will be required. TTFN - Guy > On May 26, 2016, at 11:17 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > > Sorry to clarify I am bringing this back in person > > On Thursday, May 26, 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> My DS570 came from Canada. The biggest issue is to have a shipper that is >> well versed in dealing with international shipping and knows how to deal >> with >> customs. Be clear on the customs/shipping documents about the country of >> origin and the value. You will need a bill of lading. Be warned, >> declaring a >> value of $0 will raise eyebrows. There are also ?keywords? you need to >> avoid. >> >> If I recall, I used UPS freight. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >>> On May 26, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Ian Finder > > wrote: >>> >>> Self explanatory- asking other computer collectors here to see if anyone >>> has experience. >>> >>> Will there be any trouble bringing them across? >>> >>> They look weird and big, but they have no real commercial value and are >>> just going to my personal computer collection. >>> >>> Anything I need? I think both were manufactured in the US. >>> >>> Thanks- >>> >>> - Ian >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ian Finder >>> (206) 395-MIPS >>> ian.finder at gmail.com >> >> > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com From ian at platinum.net Thu May 26 13:21:26 2016 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 11:21:26 -0700 Subject: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect? In-Reply-To: References: <4D01EAC2-1FCC-45E7-95D2-46C9D3C611AD@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Last year I made a day trip from Kelowna BC to Seattle Washington to pick up a Northstar Horizon, and I paid cash ($100 if I recall correctly). When I arrived back at the border, I got the third degree about the computer. The agent didn?t believe that I would make a 14 hour round trip to pick up something worth $100 and that it must be worth much more. After much arguing and showing him emails on my phone about negotiating the purchase he decided to let me go, but warned me that next time I did something like this I should at the very minimum bring paper copies of any emails negotiating such a purchase. Normally all my hassles at the border are at the US end, but this was on the Canadian side re-entering my own country. I was disappointed. Ian > On May 26, 2016, at 11:17 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > > Sorry to clarify I am bringing this back in person > > On Thursday, May 26, 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> My DS570 came from Canada. The biggest issue is to have a shipper that is >> well versed in dealing with international shipping and knows how to deal >> with >> customs. Be clear on the customs/shipping documents about the country of >> origin and the value. You will need a bill of lading. Be warned, >> declaring a >> value of $0 will raise eyebrows. There are also ?keywords? you need to >> avoid. >> >> If I recall, I used UPS freight. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >>> On May 26, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Ian Finder > > wrote: >>> >>> Self explanatory- asking other computer collectors here to see if anyone >>> has experience. >>> >>> Will there be any trouble bringing them across? >>> >>> They look weird and big, but they have no real commercial value and are >>> just going to my personal computer collection. >>> >>> Anything I need? I think both were manufactured in the US. >>> >>> Thanks- >>> >>> - Ian >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ian Finder >>> (206) 395-MIPS >>> ian.finder at gmail.com >> >> > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > --- > Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=20900774236E11E697EBD09C93ED0201 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 26 13:25:58 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 19:25:58 +0100 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <00c101d1b77c$0d1e43d0$275acb70$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 26 May 2016 17:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: vintage computers in active use > > On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this > morning too: > > http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 > > extract: > > The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co- > ordinated > > intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support > aircraft > > "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and > uses > > eight-inch floppy disks". > > "This system remains in use because, in short, it still works," > Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency. > > And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware and > software, to put an end to that. Windows10 can change that. The problem with old kit is the same problems we have. How do you know you have working spares to fix it. You might have a box of 8" floppies but what condition are they in? Do you need to bake them? What about rubber belts for floppy drives? Spares will have perished as well... If the disks are in a Magazine what happens if someone drops the magazine and breaks it. Where on earth do you get one of those these days.... When the PSU pops is it the PSU or something died within the works. It might be working today but I wouldn't trust a Series/1 to manage my door locks today, even though in the day IBM used them for that. Let's face it assembler on the IBM360 or many systems isn't a problem. Lots of emulators around and it is only a Tax database so timings are not a problem. Assembler on a Series/1 is a problem as it's a closed system. Can't be run under emulation. No modern replacements available. Dave G4UGM From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 26 13:31:24 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 14:31:24 -0400 Subject: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect? In-Reply-To: References: <4D01EAC2-1FCC-45E7-95D2-46C9D3C611AD@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Have all your ducks in a row, have a plan B just in case. -- Will On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Sorry to clarify I am bringing this back in person > > On Thursday, May 26, 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> My DS570 came from Canada. The biggest issue is to have a shipper that is >> well versed in dealing with international shipping and knows how to deal >> with >> customs. Be clear on the customs/shipping documents about the country of >> origin and the value. You will need a bill of lading. Be warned, >> declaring a >> value of $0 will raise eyebrows. There are also ?keywords? you need to >> avoid. >> >> If I recall, I used UPS freight. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> > On May 26, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Ian Finder > > wrote: >> > >> > Self explanatory- asking other computer collectors here to see if anyone >> > has experience. >> > >> > Will there be any trouble bringing them across? >> > >> > They look weird and big, but they have no real commercial value and are >> > just going to my personal computer collection. >> > >> > Anything I need? I think both were manufactured in the US. >> > >> > Thanks- >> > >> > - Ian >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Ian Finder >> > (206) 395-MIPS >> > ian.finder at gmail.com >> >> > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu May 26 13:31:42 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 15:31:42 -0300 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <20160526173250.GA42346@night.db.net> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526173250.GA42346@night.db.net> Message-ID: <5747410E.5000408@gmail.com> On 2016-05-26 2:32 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 06:19:51PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> On 26/05/2016 17:48, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio >>>> this morning too: >>>> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 > > A friend of mine had a collection of PDP-8s years ago during the 70s. > Ontario Hydro asked him if he could sell them a few. I always wondered > what they were doing with them, today I think I found out. > > http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/01/000/1000086.pdf > > Yeah the Bruce plant used to run on PDP-8s, a friend of mine worked there on a work term in University, he told me they had a garage full of PDP-8s for spares. I would imagine when Bruce was refurbished they where replaced with something more modern. The Pickering plant was run by IBM 1800 as where some of the coal fired plants. Paul. From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu May 26 13:39:50 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 13:39:50 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware > and software, to put an end to that. Windows10 can change that. > > Yes, and while we're at it, put it in "the cloud" so that the we can have an app for "red button." ;) What could possibly go wrong? From ethan at 757.org Thu May 26 13:40:25 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 14:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <00c101d1b77c$0d1e43d0$275acb70$@gmail.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <00c101d1b77c$0d1e43d0$275acb70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > What about rubber belts for floppy drives? Spares will have perished as > well... Might not be a bad idea to make a wiki page somewhere and measure the belts / source generic replacements. This way vendor/part# of modern replacements can be had for old belt drive floppys and computer tape drives? I think the audio cassette deck enthusiasts do something like this and the arcade CRT people are building lists of consumer TVs with usable CRTs. -- Ethan O'Toole From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu May 26 13:41:56 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 15:41:56 -0300 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <005101d1b76f$2b9171a0$82b454e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <005101d1b76f$2b9171a0$82b454e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <57474374.6010308@gmail.com> On 2016-05-26 1:53 PM, Jay West wrote: > Brent wrote... > ------ > The report said that the Department of Defence systems that > co-ordinated > intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker > support aircraft > "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and > uses > eight-inch floppy disks".= > ------ > The series-1 makes such a lovable "Bleet" sound each time you press one of > the front panel membrane buttons :) > > I can confirm first hand that HP1000 M/E/F systems are still in very active > use both on land and on (and under) sea by US forces. > > Best, > > J > > That is if the Series/1 had an operator panel, it was possible to run them without one, and then if the CE had to run diagnostics he would have to haul a panel and a diskette drive out with him. They where a very reliable machine, but CEs mostly hated working on them since they rarely saw them enough to get really familiar with them, especially if they had 10SR disks those drives where bullet proof, the 62PC not so much. I think they also used 62TM disks in Series/1 they where also a very reliable disk. Paul. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu May 26 13:45:02 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 15:45:02 -0300 Subject: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?) In-Reply-To: <57472799.9030300@pico-systems.com> References: <20160525223121.12DBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574639C2.7070007@sydex.com> <5746408E.9040502@gmail.com> <5746476C.9090404@sydex.com> <57464E89.9070001@gmail.com> <57472799.9030300@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5747442E.20604@gmail.com> On 2016-05-26 1:43 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/26/2016 08:54 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >> Speaking of ribbons, in college I occasionally used a type of ribbon >> I've never seen on line printers since: a film ribbon. Think of the >> "letter quality" ribbons used on professional typewriters, or daisy >> wheel printers, a thin plastic film with some carbon-like coating on >> one side. Now make one the width of a line printer ribbon. >> >> Our 360/44 normally used a regular cloth ribbon, but a film ribbon >> could be mounted if desired. I did so to print my honor's thesis, >> using the film ribbon and the upper/lower case print train (TN >> train?) to print the final text (from RUNOFF on our PDP-11 system, >> which had no line printer). >> > Yes, that's exactly the purpose they were for. You mounted the text > train and a film ribbon, and got a fairly nice looking printout. IBM's > early manuals were all printed this way, the look was pretty iconic. > The printed output was then photographed to make offset printing > plates. (Later they used IBM composer word processing printers, and > they looked nicer, with proportional spacing.) > > Jon Not just manuals but also the ALD logic diagrams they where printed on a 1403 with a special print train. Paul. From db at db.net Thu May 26 14:01:58 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 15:01:58 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <5747410E.5000408@gmail.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526173250.GA42346@night.db.net> <5747410E.5000408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160526190158.GA42770@night.db.net> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 03:31:42PM -0300, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2016-05-26 2:32 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: ... > > > > http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/01/000/1000086.pdf > > > > > Yeah the Bruce plant used to run on PDP-8s, a friend of mine worked > there on a work term in University, he told me they had a garage full of > PDP-8s for spares. I would imagine when Bruce was refurbished they > where replaced with something more modern. The Pickering plant was run > by IBM 1800 as where some of the coal fired plants. Wow! Thanks! I always wondered why Ontario Hydro wanted Craig's PDP-8's ;) > > Paul. > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From holm at freibergnet.de Thu May 26 14:17:03 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 21:17:03 +0200 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20160526191703.GC1022@beast.freibergnet.de> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this morning too: > > http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 > > extract: > > The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated > > intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft > > "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses > > eight-inch floppy disks". > > "This system remains in use because, in short, it still works," > Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency. > > And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware > and software, to put an end to that. Windows10 can change that. > Since Windows 10 is out, many security aware people here in germany dropping Microsoft Software if they can and you think it would be a good idea to control nuclear wheapons with this kind of crap? Nothanks. This game is over. ..and guys, since Snowden and Manning the Worlds point of view about the United States and it's "No Such Agency" has changed..entirely. Don't know if it would be an good idea to additional elect Trump.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu May 26 14:19:40 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 16:19:40 -0300 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <20160526190158.GA42770@night.db.net> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526173250.GA42346@night.db.net> <5747410E.5000408@gmail.com> <20160526190158.GA42770@night.db.net> Message-ID: <57474C4C.60200@gmail.com> On 2016-05-26 4:01 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 03:31:42PM -0300, Paul Berger wrote: >> On 2016-05-26 2:32 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > ... >>> http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/01/000/1000086.pdf >>> >>> >> Yeah the Bruce plant used to run on PDP-8s, a friend of mine worked >> there on a work term in University, he told me they had a garage full of >> PDP-8s for spares. I would imagine when Bruce was refurbished they >> where replaced with something more modern. The Pickering plant was run >> by IBM 1800 as where some of the coal fired plants. > Wow! Thanks! I always wondered why Ontario Hydro wanted Craig's PDP-8's ;) > >> Paul. >> > Diane The plant mentioned in the document above Nuclear Demonstration Plant (NDP) was the the prototype Candu reactor built at Rolphton Ont. just up the river a bit from the Chalk River Nuclear Labs. It has been long decommissioned, the other plant mentioned Bruce, was the second commercial Candu site after Douglas Point, and that would have been the first phase Bruce "A" the plant was later enlarged with a second set of 4 reactors. Paul. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 26 14:27:40 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 14:27:40 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000101d1b784$ab3b4790$01b1d6b0$@classiccmp.org> Chuck wrote... (regarding assembly, not machine language): ------- "typically tied to hardware"? Can anyone cite a case where it was not? ------- Absolutely. The Pick Operating System assembly language. They could not afford a machine when they began development of the OS. So they wrote the entire OS in a "made up" assembly language that didn't really exist on any real machine. This got them two benefits - one, didn't have to buy hardware up front, and two, porting the entire OS to a completely different platform/architecture was a task typically measured in weeks, not months or years. In addition, because it was a "mythical" assembly language, it allowed them to pretend they had hardware instructions that were unusually well suited to manipulating data structures that were unique to the database architecture. The os was available on around 30 different machines, everything from ibm 4331, IBM RT, PDP11, 68000, X86, etc. On all those it was implemented one of two ways - software implementation or hardware implementation. For the hardware implementation, a firmware board provided the real time translation/lookup of "Pick Instructions" to "native instructions". For the software implementations, the assembly process was more interesting. You'd program in Pick assembly language, then run the pick assembler (written in pick assembler of course). This would produce pick "virtual machine" (in the mythical hardware sense, not todays virtual sense) machine language. Then you'd run a BASIC program (hardware specific) that would translate the pick machine language to the native processor's assembly language. Then you'd run the native (z8000 for example) assembler to create native machine code. That could then be loaded for execution. J From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 26 14:40:55 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 15:40:55 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <000101d1b784$ab3b4790$01b1d6b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> <000101d1b784$ab3b4790$01b1d6b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On May 26, 2016, at 3:27 PM, Jay West wrote: > > Chuck wrote... (regarding assembly, not machine language): > ------- > "typically tied to hardware"? Can anyone cite a case where it was not? > ------- > Absolutely. The Pick Operating System assembly language. MIX would be another example. Or Alan Kay's "cuneiform tablets" project (https://archive.org/details/tr2015004_cuneiform) paul From linimon at lonesome.com Thu May 26 14:55:00 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 14:55:00 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <0ace01d1b6bc$9c4cc9c0$d4e65d40$@gmail.com> References: <5744A7D9.6030701@sydex.com> <5745087A.4010107@pico-systems.com> <57450E21.5060409@sydex.com> <5745207E.2090007@pico-systems.com> <57452E4C.9090706@sydex.com> <5745C943.1050102@pico-systems.com> <57897e6e-aeb0-f6b5-4d6a-467b9c452f55@jwsss.com> <5745DC02.9010808@sydex.com> <0ace01d1b6bc$9c4cc9c0$d4e65d40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160526195500.GA15639@lonesome.com> On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 08:35:33PM +0100, Dave Wade wrote: > one salesman claims to have sold 1,000. And we know salesmen would never, ever, lie. mcl From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 26 15:00:21 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 21:00:21 +0100 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <91463129-5BD6-4EF0-9B53-8B5D5B1661C1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526173250.GA42346@night.db.net> <91463129-5BD6-4EF0-9B53-8B5D5B1661C1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 26/05/2016 19:03, Brent Hilpert wrote: > All this reminds me of the systems I've missed out on: > > A few years ago, a high school acquaintance I chanced to meet and who > was working in operations control at a local oil refinery told me the > large multi-rack PDP-11 system for process control had been > decommissioned and dumped about a year earlier. "Ya, that's too bad, > you could have had it." Not as long ago as that I was reacquainted with someone I first came across dropping hints on Usenet in the late 1990s, who worked at a large power station not far from here. The upshot was an exploratory trip in which we filled two large cars, then subsequently overfilled a 3-ton truck with PDP-11 equipment and related goodies. -- Pete From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 26 15:50:40 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 13:50:40 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <000101d1b784$ab3b4790$01b1d6b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> <000101d1b784$ab3b4790$01b1d6b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <574761A0.7060901@sydex.com> On 05/26/2016 12:27 PM, Jay West wrote: > Chuck wrote... (regarding assembly, not machine language): ------- > "typically tied to hardware"? Can anyone cite a case where it was > not? ------- Absolutely. The Pick Operating System assembly language. > They could not afford a machine when they began development of the > OS. So they wrote the entire OS in a "made up" assembly language that > didn't really exist on any real machine. This got them two benefits - > one, didn't have to buy hardware up front, and two, porting the > entire OS to a completely different platform/architecture was a task > typically measured in weeks, not months or years. In addition, > because it was a "mythical" assembly language, it allowed them to > pretend they had hardware instructions that were unusually well > suited to manipulating data structures that were unique to the > database architecture. Meh, I'll not too willingly concede that one. P-code is also a made-up machine language. Heck, I've been guilty of doing the same--I don't know if I ever commented on it, but I learned this one from a guy who worked on IBM COMTRAN. The task at hand was to quickly write a translator for COBOL that could take non-standard COBOL constructs and extensions and turn them into either subroutine calls or standard COBOL. To do this, you had to pretty much compile the whole program, then spit out the translation for compilation by a regular compiler. A bit complicated in details, but it was for a multi-mainframe shared-memory realtime transaction-oriented setup. At any rate, the idea was that you devised a fictional machine whose inputs were "tokens" and whose output was "code". So you developed instructions that operated on these things, masking the details like token formation, symbol table management, etc. You encoded these into a fixed instruction format and wrote an interpreter to handle the operations themselves. A very quick way to get things going. When you were satisfied, the "instructions" could be expanded with the macro assembler into real machine language for the platform. While not unique today, this was more than 45 years ago. I later did a compiled multi-user BASIC for the 8085 using the same technique. It took two of us 4 months to do, using nothing more than a floppy-based MDS-800 running ISIS-II. I still have my original design document. The BASIC was later ported to Unix and, as of last year, I was aware of at least one installation still using it. One wonders were Java will be in 45 years... --Chuck From bryan at bceassociates.com Thu May 26 12:22:31 2016 From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan C. Everly) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 13:22:31 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <005101d1b76f$2b9171a0$82b454e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <005101d1b76f$2b9171a0$82b454e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I did work in UNIX on a Series-1 in the telecom space. It probably still is in use. About like an AS/400. They were built like tanks and never seemed to break. Thanks, Bryan On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:53 PM, Jay West wrote: > Brent wrote... > ------ > The report said that the Department of Defence systems that > co-ordinated > intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker > support aircraft > "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and > uses > eight-inch floppy disks".= > ------ > The series-1 makes such a lovable "Bleet" sound each time you press one of > the front panel membrane buttons :) > > I can confirm first hand that HP1000 M/E/F systems are still in very active > use both on land and on (and under) sea by US forces. > > Best, > > J > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 26 16:25:14 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 16:25:14 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <574761A0.7060901@sydex.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> <000101d1b784$ab3b4790$01b1d6b0$@classiccmp.org> <574761A0.7060901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000601d1b795$18078090$481681b0$@classiccmp.org> Chuck wrote... -------- Meh, I'll not too willingly concede that one. P-code is also a made-up machine language. -------- But one difference I'll toss out there... p-code wasn't meant to be written in directly. Pick assembler was; so it included the full suite of ORG, EQU, MACRO, LIST, NOLIST type directives. I doubt most pcode does. Interesting to note - pick basic used p-code. The basic "compiler" (written in pick assembler) turned basic source into a byte oriented p-code. It was stack oriented, used RPN for expressions; each basic language statement generated a set of stack operations to perform the statement such that at the end of that statement everything was back as was before the code stream for that statement was executed. Of course, this p-code was executed interpretively. By missionary instructions ;) J From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 26 16:53:12 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 17:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use Message-ID: <20160526215312.D6BD318C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan O'Toole > Might not be a bad idea to make a wiki page somewhere and ... source > generic replacements. This way vendor/part# of modern replacements can > be had for old belt drive floppys and computer tape drives? > I think the audio cassette deck enthusiasts do something like this Excellent idea. The data can be put on the Computer History wiki; I've been putting a lot of PDP-11 info up there. Let me know if you have data to post, and can't get access. > From: Paul Koning > It clearly is not all that accurate. In a discussion of "old" systems, > it mentions a system with "reported age 52 years" but it "runs on > windows server 2008 and is programmed in Java". ... A number of other > examples are similar. For example, a "56 year old" IRS system that > actually runs on an IBM z series machine from 2010. Perhaps this is just sloppy writing, and they really 'the application is 52 years old, but it has been translated into Java'? And the latter one could easily be System/360 code from 56 years ago, running on a z series. Noel From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu May 26 17:18:40 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 00:18:40 +0200 Subject: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect? In-Reply-To: References: <4D01EAC2-1FCC-45E7-95D2-46C9D3C611AD@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1464301120.14632.19.camel@agj.net> tor 2016-05-26 klockan 11:21 -0700 skrev Ian McLaughlin: > Last year I made a day trip from Kelowna BC to Seattle Washington to pick up a Northstar Horizon, and I paid cash ($100 if I recall correctly). > > When I arrived back at the border, I got the third degree about the computer. The agent didn?t believe that I would make a 14 hour round trip to pick up something worth $100 and that it must be worth much more. After much arguing and showing him emails on my phone about negotiating the purchase he decided to let me go, but warned me that next time I did something like this I should at the very minimum bring paper copies of any emails negotiating such a purchase. Normally all my hassles at the border are at the US end, but this was on the Canadian side re-entering my own country. I was disappointed. > > Ian The same type of guy which would ask me: ARE you doing this for FREE (asked while i'm sweating down in the machine room of a steamer (while it is 30 degrees celsius outside), it is around 50 degrees or so in front of the boiler. They can't understand why someone would something which looks like $work UNPAID. Yes i'm and i also had to pay for the morning's travel to the port and i also pay out of my own wallet then it is time to take that so very important course if i'm to become a legitimized steam boat chief (full time study work for 6 months - you need to eat and pay rent while doing that...) And think then about how nice it is doing maintenance work in the winter or that other leisure : running a steam engine occasionaly in the winter too. Your little road trip - well you paid petrol prices which is a bit below european prices. 14 hours -- 1000 km drive ? 75 liter of petrol - in swedish prices that is around 121 Euros, so including petrol you paid around 200 euros (swedish prices for the petrol) for the computer. From isking at uw.edu Thu May 26 17:24:33 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 15:24:33 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <20160526215312.D6BD318C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160526215312.D6BD318C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ethan O'Toole > > > Might not be a bad idea to make a wiki page somewhere and ... source > > generic replacements. This way vendor/part# of modern replacements > can > > be had for old belt drive floppys and computer tape drives? > > I think the audio cassette deck enthusiasts do something like this > > Excellent idea. The data can be put on the Computer History wiki; I've been > putting a lot of PDP-11 info up there. Let me know if you have data to > post, > and can't get access. > > > > From: Paul Koning > > > It clearly is not all that accurate. In a discussion of "old" > systems, > > it mentions a system with "reported age 52 years" but it "runs on > > windows server 2008 and is programmed in Java". ... A number of other > > examples are similar. For example, a "56 year old" IRS system that > > actually runs on an IBM z series machine from 2010. > > Perhaps this is just sloppy writing, and they really 'the application is 52 > years old, but it has been translated into Java'? And the latter one could > easily be System/360 code from 56 years ago, running on a z series. > > Noel > Back to the original story: there's another angle on this with government work. I once tried to acquire a vintage system through an auction house. We (LCM) won the auction, but the next day the auction house refunded our money - apparently the machine was pushed into the wrong room and was not to be auctioned off. I begged for it anyway, and was told that because it was part of an active program (testing for some fighter jet), it was still in use. When I suggested modernizing, I was told that changing the hardware would require *re-certifying the entire workflow*. In other words, it was far more economical to maintain a 70's era computer than spec, design, acquire/build and certify a new system. I suspect that "journalism" like this is prompted by (and likely paid for) by companies who profit from getting people on the endless-upgrade merry-go-round. But then I'm cantankerous that way. Cheers -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu May 26 18:18:57 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 11:18:57 +1200 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 4:27 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this morning too: > http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 > > extract: > The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated > intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft > "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses > eight-inch floppy disks". It was a few years ago now and it's third hand - but I was told that the US Navy still maintained a shop dedicated exclusively to repairing IBM SLT modules... can't vouch for the veracity of that; perhaps someone else can. http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 26 18:20:48 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 01:20:48 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 24 May 2016 at 23:10, Fred Cisin wrote: > Whether 8088 was an "8 bit" or "16 bit" processor depends heavily on how you > define those. > Or, you could phrase it, that the 8 bit processors at the time handled 64KiB > of RAM. OK, thank you all for the responses. Rarely have I felt so lectured and indeed talked-down-to in CCmp. :-D No, it's a fair cop, I egregiously over-simplified my comment. So let me try to address (haha) that. Most 8-bit CPUs that I knew of had a 16-bit address bus, and thus were limited to 64kB of physical memory (excluding bank switching &c.) Most 16-bit CPUs I knew of (ignoring issues of internal ALU width etc.) had 24-bit address buses and could thus handle 16MB of physical memory. This includes cut-down internally-32-bit-wide devices such as the 80386SX and 68000. The 8088/8086 had a 20-bit address bus, differing mainly in the width of the *data* bus, and the later 80286 had a 16-bit address bus. So, yes, generally, 8-bitters could handle 64kB but 16-bitters 16MB. As far as memory *size* considerations go, the width of the data bus, multiplexing or multicycle accesses etc. are not germane to the quantity of addressable memory. So I was broadly right that the 8088/8086 sit somewhere on the dividing line? That at least is good to know! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 26 18:40:18 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 16:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > So I was broadly right that the 8088/8086 sit somewhere on the > dividing line? That at least is good to know! Of course. That is exactly the point. How you draw the line, determines which side it will fall, and it is right in the middle, so many otherwise reasonable definitions will differ on that group of chips, since it IS in between an 8 bit and 16 bit. Either an 8 bit that has been expanded to SOME 16 bit capabilities, or a 16 bit that has been cut down into an 8 bit. From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Thu May 26 18:54:59 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 17:54:59 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > The 8088/8086 had a 20-bit address bus, differing mainly in the width > of the *data* bus, and the later 80286 had a 16-bit address bus. > The 80286 had a 24-bit address bus (16MB) -- *John P. Willis* Coherent Logic Development LLC M: 575.520.9542 O: 575.524.1034 chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com http://www.coherent-logic.com/ From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 26 18:56:48 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 01:56:48 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160520205838.GA15363@brevard.conman.org> <5199b6ad-f7d0-82d8-1b5a-eca1727499ae@jetnet.ab.ca> <9A17077D-0783-4CDF-AC36-F1D2041F8829@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 27 May 2016 at 01:54, John Willis wrote: >> The 8088/8086 had a 20-bit address bus, differing mainly in the width >> of the *data* bus, and the later 80286 had a 16-bit address bus. >> > > The 80286 had a 24-bit address bus (16MB) Sorry! Typo. It's nearly 2AM here in Czechia. I think I need to go to sleep. :?( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 26 19:57:22 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 19:57:22 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <00be01d1b77a$50f32460$f2d96d20$@gmail.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <00be01d1b77a$50f32460$f2d96d20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57479B72.6050809@pico-systems.com> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile >> Sent: 26 May 2016 18:47 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > They used 7 track tapes for Nike Ajax targeting data that could not be > erased >> due to how they were recorded. >> >> The B2 bomber gets the mission data loaded on a Maxxoptix optical cartridge. I recognized it as I have a Maxxoptix drive here. Not quite as old as 7-track mag tape, but a fairly old technology. it was probably state of the art when the were first designing the B2. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 26 20:05:07 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 18:05:07 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <57479B72.6050809@pico-systems.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <00be01d1b77a$50f32460$f2d96d20$@gmail.com> <57479B72.6050809@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57479D43.8070800@sydex.com> On 05/26/2016 05:57 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > The B2 bomber gets the mission data loaded on a Maxxoptix optical > cartridge. I recognized it as I have a Maxxoptix drive here. Not > quite as old as 7-track mag tape, but a fairly old technology. it > was probably state of the art when the were first designing the B2. I believe that some old DEC gear may still be in use at Warner-Robbins to maintain C130 transports. I used to have some RX02 floppies for that stuff (probably still do, but I don't know where I put them.) --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 26 20:08:32 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 20:08:32 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <57479E10.2010908@pico-systems.com> On 05/26/2016 06:18 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > It was a few years ago now and it's third hand - but I was > told that the US Navy still maintained a shop dedicated > exclusively to repairing IBM SLT modules... can't vouch > for the veracity of that; perhaps someone else can. > http://www.corestore.org Hmm, I've thought about this a bit. I think one could make up replacement SLT modules with little PC boards and SOT23 transistors and 0805 or 0603 SMT resistors. SLT modules had very little on them, something like 2 transistors and 4 diodes and some resistors. I was thinking about this in relation to keeping a mid-size 360 running for a few hours a month at a museum, like the 1401 at CHM. But, it would sure work for actual full-time operation, too. Jon From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu May 26 20:13:55 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 21:13:55 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <20160526191703.GC1022@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526191703.GC1022@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 2016-05-26 3:17 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this morning too: >>> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 >>> extract: >>> The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated >>> intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft >>> "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses >>> eight-inch floppy disks". >> >> "This system remains in use because, in short, it still works," >> Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency. >> >> And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware >> and software, to put an end to that. Windows10 can change that. >> > Since Windows 10 is out, many security aware people here in germany > dropping Microsoft Software if they can and you think it would be a good > idea to control nuclear wheapons with this kind of crap? > > Nothanks. This game is over. In case you missed it: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nuclearpower-cyber-germany-idUSKCN0XN2OS It's only a matter of time. --Toby > > ..and guys, since Snowden and Manning the Worlds point of view about the United States > and it's "No Such Agency" has changed..entirely. > Don't know if it would be an good idea to additional elect Trump.. > > Regards, > > Holm > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu May 26 20:20:41 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 21:20:41 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2016-05-26 2:39 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> >> And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware >> and software, to put an end to that. Windows10 can change that. >> >> > Yes, and while we're at it, put it in "the cloud" so that the we can have > an app for "red button." ;) What could possibly go wrong? > We're pretty much already there. Audits of the F35 software found: * single points of failure (grounding global fleet) * security issues * that software is the single biggest risk to the project It's not clear how much Microsoft is already in that loop. http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-04-21/gao-questions-deployability-redundancy-f-35-alis-system etc While the existence of such projects is ... questionable to begin with, one might think the continual under-delivery (across all military boondoggles) might give taxpayers pause. --Toby From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 26 21:03:27 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 19:03:27 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5747AAEF.2090202@sydex.com> On 05/26/2016 06:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > While the existence of such projects is ... questionable to begin > with, one might think the continual under-delivery (across all > military boondoggles) might give taxpayers pause. I see a lot of "we're going to do it because we can, not because it's really needed" in all of this stuff. It's not just the military, either. My wife and I are getting estimates to replace the heat pump in the house. The old one has put in 24 good years, but is developing issues and uses R22 refrigerant which will shortly be next to unobtainium. Time to replace. What bowled me over was getting a system quote that involved a "connected" thermostat--a full-color-touchscreen-Wifi-interface-web-connected unit. When I said I didn't *want* a "connected" thermostat, but merely a simple programmable one, the reply came back that I couldn't have one--the whizbang one was standard for the quoted system. Next, I suppose my toothbrush will give me the weather forecast and latest stock quotes... After about a decade, I still haven't read the rather lengthy manual that came with my stereo receiver--I dropped out when the topic came to "setup menus" (plural). --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 26 21:10:17 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 19:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <000601d1b795$18078090$481681b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> <000101d1b784$ab3b4790$01b1d6b0$@classiccmp.org> <574761A0.7060901@sydex.com> <000601d1b795$18078090$481681b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2016, Jay West wrote: > Interesting to note - pick basic used p-code. The basic "compiler" (written It still does, unless the code (under D3) has been "flash" compiled - which turns the BASIC code into C and then feeds THAT into cc. Note that the BASIC compiler in OpenQM (and Scarlet DME) is written in BASIC - it outputs p-code. If you're into Pick at all (or curious to see how it works), grab a copy of Scarlet DME (linked in my sig) and root around in the GPL.BP directory - all the system tools code is in there. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 26 21:14:27 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 19:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <20160526215312.D6BD318C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > I begged for it anyway, and was told that because it was part of an active > program (testing for some fighter jet), it was still in use. When I > suggested modernizing, I was told that changing the hardware would require > *re-certifying the entire workflow*. In other words, it was far more > economical to maintain a 70's era computer than spec, design, acquire/build > and certify a new system. > Considering how military avionics systems work, this is entirely plausible. Consider that up until (at least) 1998, the F-15C's tactical electronic warfare system was run by a 6800B. The person I was discussing this with had designed a replacement that operated around a SoS 80386 and could run rings around what the 6800B system could do. His company dropped the project because they couldn't afford the certification process just to build a test model. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From holm at freibergnet.de Thu May 26 21:48:41 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 04:48:41 +0200 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526191703.GC1022@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20160527024841.GA63886@beast.freibergnet.de> Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-05-26 3:17 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >>> A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this morning too: > >>> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 > >>> extract: > >>> The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated > >>> intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft > >>> "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses > >>> eight-inch floppy disks". > >> > >> "This system remains in use because, in short, it still works," > >> Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency. > >> > >> And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware > >> and software, to put an end to that. Windows10 can change that. > >> > > Since Windows 10 is out, many security aware people here in germany > > dropping Microsoft Software if they can and you think it would be a good > > idea to control nuclear wheapons with this kind of crap? > > > > Nothanks. This game is over. > > In case you missed it: > > > http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nuclearpower-cyber-germany-idUSKCN0XN2OS > > It's only a matter of time. > > --Toby > Yes, this is only one of the reasons I don't like Windows, but the germanys government has decided to shut down any nuclear plant anyways after the fukushima desaster. But controlling weapons wth Windoze would be another story. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jws at jwsss.com Thu May 26 21:55:10 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 19:55:10 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <000601d1b795$18078090$481681b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> <000101d1b784$ab3b4790$01b1d6b0$@classiccmp.org> <574761A0.7060901@sydex.com> <000601d1b795$18078090$481681b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 5/26/2016 2:25 PM, Jay West wrote: > Of course, this p-code was executed > interpretively. By missionary instructions;) On the microcoded machines, the 1600 and Ultimate (honeywell level 6, and also custom bit slice microengines) systems in particular, the interpreter was assisted by a macro instruction which essentially implemented the jump to a table based on the next p instruction pointed at by the p-code instruction counter. At the end of the pick assembly code (which was executed by firmware) the special instruction was executed in the stream of pick assembly instructions. Later versions implemented execution of 8 or 10 instructions directly in the firmware, so sometimes when some versions of the firmware came out it was not just a branch to code to execute all the p-code, but sometimes a lot of pcode would be executed by the firmware, eventually coming up for air and back to some pick firmware when a non firmware instruction was encountered. A very interesting mix of executing code at both the macro level and micro level. for completeness of this, if I've not lost you, there was a machine built by Pick which was also microcoded, and as far as I know those were the only microcoded machines for pick. The above concept worked in varying degrees with the cross compiled systems which ran on 68000 and other machines as well. Thanks jim From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu May 26 22:08:52 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 23:08:52 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <20160527024841.GA63886@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526191703.GC1022@beast.freibergnet.de> <20160527024841.GA63886@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 2016-05-26 10:48 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 2016-05-26 3:17 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>>> A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this morning too: >>>>> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839 >>>>> extract: >>>>> The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated >>>>> intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft >>>>> "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses >>>>> eight-inch floppy disks". >>>> >>>> "This system remains in use because, in short, it still works," >>>> Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency. >>>> >>>> And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware >>>> and software, to put an end to that. Windows10 can change that. >>>> >>> Since Windows 10 is out, many security aware people here in germany >>> dropping Microsoft Software if they can and you think it would be a good >>> idea to control nuclear wheapons with this kind of crap? >>> >>> Nothanks. This game is over. >> >> In case you missed it: >> >> >> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nuclearpower-cyber-germany-idUSKCN0XN2OS >> >> It's only a matter of time. >> >> --Toby >> > > Yes, this is only one of the reasons I don't like Windows, but the > germanys government has decided to shut down any nuclear plant anyways > after the fukushima desaster. > > But controlling weapons wth Windoze would be another story. > Not necessarily true. Few weapons (perhaps none, but I'm not an expert on nuclear physics) can do as much harm as a failed nuclear plant. --Toby > Regards, > > Holm > > From spacewar at gmail.com Thu May 26 22:31:23 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 21:31:23 -0600 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <57479E10.2010908@pico-systems.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57479E10.2010908@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/26/2016 06:18 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> It was a few years ago now and it's third hand - but I was told that the >> US Navy still maintained a shop dedicated exclusively to repairing IBM SLT >> modules... can't vouch for the veracity of that; perhaps someone else can. >> http://www.corestore.org > > Hmm, I've thought about this a bit. I think one could make up replacement > SLT modules with little PC boards and SOT23 transistors and 0805 or 0603 SMT > resistors. SLT modules had very little on them, something like 2 > transistors and 4 diodes and some resistors. > > I was thinking about this in relation to keeping a mid-size 360 running for > a few hours a month at a museum, like the 1401 at CHM. But, it would sure > work for actual full-time operation, too. Another CHM volunteer (from the PDP-1 Restoration Project) and I pushed for an IBM 360/30 Restoration Project, and the ability to build replacements for failed SLT modules was part of our plan. I donated a 2540 Reader Punch to CHM with the hope that it would be used on the 360/30, but unfortunately I missed out on getting the 2821 Control Unit that went with it. Unfortunately, for various reasons it is unlikely that the CHM 360/30 will be restored. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 26 22:40:12 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 23:40:12 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57479E10.2010908@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > Another CHM volunteer (from the PDP-1 Restoration Project) and I > pushed for an IBM 360/30 Restoration Project, and the ability to build > replacements for failed SLT modules was part of our plan. I am still trying to figure in which universe are SLT modules so rare that one needs to fabricate replacements. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 26 23:34:41 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 21:34:41 -0700 Subject: Servant .953 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70c4dc46-a2b3-fdcf-9ab5-57f48005c98e@bitsavers.org> On 5/7/10 11:35 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > > Could developers modify it any include it in heir commercial 64 bit Intel applications for instance? > No It was made available by Apple for non-commercial use From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 26 23:35:46 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 21:35:46 -0700 Subject: Servant .953 In-Reply-To: <70c4dc46-a2b3-fdcf-9ab5-57f48005c98e@bitsavers.org> References: <70c4dc46-a2b3-fdcf-9ab5-57f48005c98e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: sorry, I was looking at archived mail from 2010 and didn't realize it.. On 5/26/16 9:34 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/7/10 11:35 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: >> >> Could developers modify it any include it in heir commercial 64 bit Intel applications for instance? >> > > No > > It was made available by Apple for non-commercial use > > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri May 27 01:30:22 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 00:30:22 -0600 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57479E10.2010908@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I wrote: > Another CHM volunteer (from the PDP-1 Restoration Project) and I > pushed for an IBM 360/30 Restoration Project, and the ability to build > replacements for failed SLT modules was part of our plan. On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 9:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I am still trying to figure in which universe are SLT modules so rare > that one needs to fabricate replacements. As far as I can tell, if I suddenly need a specific SLT module, the odds of finding that specific module at any given time on eBay is essentially zero. Obviously if we could find an authentic replacement, we'd prefer that. We didn't want the entire restoration to be dependent on having to find authentic replacements. Some SLT modules are far more common than others. I don't know how many different SLT modules are used in the 360/30, nor what percentage of the SLT modules in that machine are common ones. When we restored the DEC PDP-1, it contained quite a few DEC System Modules from DEC's standard catalog and that we had spares of, but it also contained a non-trivial number of specialized modules that are much harder to find, if not impossible. I'm guessing that IBM machines were probably similar. From holm at freibergnet.de Fri May 27 04:33:55 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 11:33:55 +0200 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526191703.GC1022@beast.freibergnet.de> <20160527024841.GA63886@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20160527093354.GA79068@beast.freibergnet.de> Toby Thain wrote: [..] > > > > Yes, this is only one of the reasons I don't like Windows, but the > > germanys government has decided to shut down any nuclear plant anyways > > after the fukushima desaster. > > > > But controlling weapons wth Windoze would be another story. > > > > Not necessarily true. Few weapons (perhaps none, but I'm not an expert > on nuclear physics) can do as much harm as a failed nuclear plant. > > --Toby > > " of Defence systems that co-ordinated intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft" Oh, I think those will do. ..but I have no problem with IBM Series 1 Computers, I habe a problem with Microsoft Windows. Regards Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri May 27 07:03:33 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 13:03:33 +0100 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <20160527093354.GA79068@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526191703.GC1022@beast.freibergnet.de> <20160527024841.GA63886@beast.freibergnet.de> <20160527093354.GA79068@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <3eb48272-0ca2-aa5e-c80f-1c8d81bee465@btinternet.com> On 27/05/2016 10:33, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Toby Thain wrote: > > [..] >>> Yes, this is only one of the reasons I don't like Windows, but the >>> germanys government has decided to shut down any nuclear plant anyways >>> after the fukushima desaster. >>> >>> But controlling weapons wth Windoze would be another story. >>> >> Not necessarily true. Few weapons (perhaps none, but I'm not an expert >> on nuclear physics) can do as much harm as a failed nuclear plant. >> >> --Toby >> >> > " of Defence systems that co-ordinated > intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker > support aircraft" > > > Oh, I think those will do. > ..but I have no problem with IBM Series 1 Computers, I habe a problem > with Microsoft Windows. > > Regards > Holm > I have used the following operating systems: GeorgeIII ICL 1971 CPM MSDOS DOS DR DOS OS/8 RSX11-M RSX11-D RSTS MUMPS MVS Every version of windows from 1 to 10 Unix Ultrix Most of the Linux distributions ISIS TSO Now will somebody explain to me why windows is considered not good. Rod Smallwood From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 27 07:16:56 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 05:16:56 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <3eb48272-0ca2-aa5e-c80f-1c8d81bee465@btinternet.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526191703.GC1022@beast.freibergnet.de> <20160527024841.GA63886@beast.freibergnet.de> <20160527093354.GA79068@beast.freibergnet.de> <3eb48272-0ca2-aa5e-c80f-1c8d81bee465@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <57483AB8.5060102@bitsavers.org> On 5/27/16 5:03 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Now will somebody explain to me why windows is considered not good. > It became too popular, and created a monoculture that was a prime target for malware. It also didn't start out that way, but it evolved into an OS that would only run on one architecture, with one preferred CPU vendor; Intel. There is a core of hardware that is required, but almost no one runs with that anymore, and the drivers for video, audio, and networking come from different companies with varying quality and stability. Finding those drivers for anything other than the most recent releases can be difficult. Then, there is the history of the business practices of the company that produces it. From martin at shackspace.de Fri May 27 07:40:43 2016 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:40:43 +0200 Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( In-Reply-To: <2C7AF88C-C562-4F18-878D-89C13FD3222F@bigpond.com> References: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> <20160522194941.GA4588@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <005201d1b5c8$26a6b040$73f410c0$@bigpond.com> <2C7AF88C-C562-4F18-878D-89C13FD3222F@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <20160527124043.GA14198@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Hi David, hi Ethan! We managed to get the plotter working again. Thanks to both of you, for your help. The newer Fireware seems to work fine, but there are still some problems with the buffer handling for our self-written software. The guy who wrote the software promised to publish it, when it's done. Greetings, Martin -- Martin Peters martin at shackspace.de From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri May 27 08:34:10 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:34:10 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <20160526215312.D6BD318C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <297758A7-3E2B-49DD-B726-7C1B8C986042@comcast.net> > On May 26, 2016, at 10:14 PM, geneb wrote: > >> I begged for it anyway, and was told that because it was part of an active >> program (testing for some fighter jet), it was still in use. When I >> suggested modernizing, I was told that changing the hardware would require >> *re-certifying the entire workflow*. In other words, it was far more >> economical to maintain a 70's era computer than spec, design, acquire/build >> and certify a new system. >> > Considering how military avionics systems work, this is entirely plausible. Consider that up until (at least) 1998, the F-15C's tactical electronic warfare system was run by a 6800B. The person I was discussing this with had designed a replacement that operated around a SoS 80386 and could run rings around what the 6800B system could do. His company dropped the project because they couldn't afford the certification process just to build a test model. Not only plausible but reasonable. I've been doing embedded systems for a long time, with a number of different real-time kernels at the bottom. At various times we looked into upgrading our kernel to a newer release -- sometimes the release we were using was 6-8 years old. But unlike PCs where "the latest shiny toy" is the common practice, in embedded systems it is best to stick with what is known, and not change it unless there is a clear benefit to be had that outweighs the risk of introducing new bugs. It does of course mean that if you eventually end up upgrading, the jump is a bit large (a few years ago, going from NetBSD 1.6.2 to NetBSD 5.0 was definitely an interesting experience). But in any case, this is a sensible practice for embedded systems, and much more so for safety critical ones. paul From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri May 27 08:57:03 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <3eb48272-0ca2-aa5e-c80f-1c8d81bee465@btinternet.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526191703.GC1022@beast.freibergnet.de> <20160527024841.GA63886@beast.freibergnet.de> <20160527093354.GA79068@beast.freibergnet.de> <3eb48272-0ca2-aa5e-c80f-1c8d81bee465@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <201605271357.JAA08954@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I have used the following operating systems: [...] > Now will somebody explain to me why windows is considered not good. There are, of course, almost as many answers to that as there are people holding that opinion. My own answers? It's closed source. It appears to put usefulness to users second to separating them from their money. It appears to be designed for users who know nothing about computers - and designed to keep them in that state. It appears to be designed around the model of large companies producing content which individual consumers consume (as opposed to peers providing things to one another). It is a monoculture. It drives the Intel ISA monoculture. By requiring ridiculously over-specced machines, it encourages the sloppy coder tendency to hide sins with hardware. It's full of gaping security holes - some by culture, some by design, some by chance. (Yes, I know some of these are easily explainable.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 09:59:55 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 08:59:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: ASM, Clancy & Harvey, and Agile (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > I had words with Clancy and Harvey. While need may be diminshed, there > is never a complete elimination of the need to pay attention to, and > optimize near, the level of hardware. I'm going to loudly agree here. While I find assembly coding somewhat tedious, I wonder what kind of Jedi mind trick "Clancy and Harvey" used to make themselves believe that asm was not only dead but also no longer useful. *eye roll* Whatever, geniuses. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the quote? Are they serious? Is this out of context and I'm just not "getting" what they really meant? There are all kinds of seemingly instinctual reactions that some folks have to questions of programming style and efficiency. My *least* favorites are: 1. The "GUI programming" or "natural language" folks who think that programming really isn't that hard, the problem is that we haven't given folks Fischer-Price icons for control structures, or allowed people "simply tell the computer what to do." I simply call BS. 2. Languages that are supposed to "enlighten" students to some incredible new programming paradigm, or bolt-ons that to older languages with the same claims. They almost always start their pitch by telling you how some irritating or tedious aspect of coding in other languages can be eliminated or minimized. I'm more and more skeptical of this claim all the time. It rarely works out and generally making things "safer" or "easier" runs a big risk of neutering their usefulness, too. Those languages who successfully walk the line between power and ease of use are the ones that survive and thrive (and sometimes it's just chance/luck as Dennis Ritchie said about C). The bottom line is that coding is work. It takes creativity, analytical and critical thinking ability, and probably most important of all: practice. IMHO, there aren't any shortcuts. You work and you get results. As tedious as it is, I can think of several contexts were ASM is downright required. Folks who think there is a magic bullet or shortcut seem to fall into the same mistakes while calling them something new. Folks who resent the work & sweat that others do to get those skills are generally the ones who are screaming the loudest about how programming is really easy, but it's the geeks who are just overcomplicating things and are making it "so hard". Then they or folks with the same mindset generally start talking about Agile, XP, or some "methodology" that's going to somehow free them from the basic fact that good experienced coders write the best code and deliver. You can't simply iron on a methodology and turn a team full of lazy or careless coders into something else. At best, you can catch more of their errors and report on the ones that aren't being productive and hope your management pays attention. I've worked under Agile and XP regimes and I hate both with a passion. They were both a *huge* productivity drag (ever actually tried "pair programming"?) and seemed to me to be an effort to make business weasels feel more comfortable that their coders were "communicating" and other social crapola they think is important since most of what they do is sit around and run their mouths in meetings all day. I'm sure some folks will disagree, but I've *actually worked* under these schemes. In my experience (and the vast majority of my co-workers) they were awful. It also seems to me that all the "greats" (incredible coders) and software projects or companies I loved or respected weren't "Agile". They simply hired the right people and got out of the way. Give me the "wizard in a cave" methodology anyday over "1000 H1Bs writing Shakespeare using Agile". Results matter more than mollycottled business majors and project manager feelings... uhh, IHMO. Who would you want helping you finish your project, Dr. Jeff Sutherland or John Carmack? Which do you think is going to get you there sooner and with better results? I know how I'd answer... This mentality I dislike is a bit like saying the only reason you can't play violin is, not because you don't practice and are too lazy to work at it.... noooo it's because the violin is poorly designed, the wrong brand, and because you aren't practicing in the right order with your head turned in the proper direction. Yeah. Right. I'm not saying the state of the art can't be improved. I only assert that there are some strategies for doing so that seem flawed from the start because they start with unrealistic (or downright silly) founding principles. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 10:11:26 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:11:26 -0600 (MDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <00c101d1b77c$0d1e43d0$275acb70$@gmail.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <00c101d1b77c$0d1e43d0$275acb70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2016, Dave Wade wrote: > Assembler on a Series/1 is a problem as it's a closed system. Can't be > run under emulation. No modern replacements available. You make some excellent points about the hardware and the difficulty of emulation et al. When it comes to firing nuclear weapons, personally I'd like to see computers *removed* from the equation as much as is practical. The protocols for firing should be as embedded as much as possible in human chain of command and the Missileers, not the computers. The controls are currently physically isolated and require simultainous key-turns by two individuals etc.. I have much more faith in something like that than in software or computer hardware. Anatoli Bugorski can tell you all about the effectiveness of "safety software". If they putting Windows boxes in missile silos, well... Prepare for WWIII. It's a bit like the last time I was in an ER and they couldn't accept patients because their Windows machines kept blue-screening due to a virus. Windows in an ER? Yep. This insanity is now the norm. -Swift From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri May 27 10:29:10 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 11:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ASM, Clancy & Harvey, and Agile (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201605271529.LAA20722@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I've worked under Agile and XP regimes and I hate both with a > passion. They were both a *huge* productivity drag (ever actually > tried "pair programming"?) Yes. I've done agile and XP and even a little pair programming. And...I agree and I disagree. If you have a small project, something one person can do and you are content with the result being in only one person's head, agile and XP and the like are exactly what you say: a significant productivity lose. But if you need the result to be in more than one person's head, or if the project is such that one person can't handle it (too big, needs to be done too fast, whatever), pair programming is - well, can be - a substantial win overall. It impairs _individual_ productivity for the sake of _overall_ productivity. Agile and XP are less about programming productivity in isolation and more about customer interfacing - and therefore productivity in terms of producing happy customers (where "customer" should be interpreted liberally, not necessarily as "arm's-length entity that pays money"). If you're building something for yourself, if you're doing a well-defined and highly predictable "here's the task, go away and come back when it's done" job, they are of little to no use. But if you're building something where there's a nontrivial chance of the requirements changing mid-job, and the coders and the consumer are different, I find them to be of significant value - and that's a larger fraction of the coding jobs than one might wish. > It also seems to me that all the "greats" (incredible coders) No, if you're idolzing lone-wolf coders producing one-person projects on their own (or even very small teams, if they already know one another well), agile will be somewhere between irrelevant and obstructionist. > and software projects or companies I loved or respected weren't > "Agile". Possibly. I'd have to know which ones you have in mind to have any chance of saying anything of value - and probably not even then, as it's unlikely that whatever you have in mind is something I know anything about the internals of. I will hazard a guess that the projects/companies you're talking about were not producing code for a customer, but were producing something for themselves which, once produced, turned out to be appreciated. (Perhaps they did so expecting that result, perhaps not - the critical point is that there was no customer before/during coding.) There, too, because there is no customer during coding and thus no changing requirements during coding, and no customer to be kept happy during coding, agile and XP are irrelevant. If that's the only kind of coding you care about, or what to do, or whatever, yes, you should ignore them. A nontrivial fraction of the code I write falls into such categories. But there is also a nontrivial fraction of the code I write that _does_ have a separate customer, with changing requirements. While I don't formally do agile, what I do do is in line with many of the principles behind agile - things like "release early, release often", short iterations, and constant customer involvement. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 10:41:07 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:41:07 -0600 (MDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2016, Toby Thain wrote: > We're pretty much already there. Agreed. You should hear one of my buddies talk about the air traffic control software he wrote which was replaced with some horror. > Audits of the F35 software found: > * single points of failure (grounding global fleet) > * security issues > * that software is the single biggest risk to the project One of the principles of Unix: KISS, has been nearly completely lost. Nobody calls a meeting anymore to say "What can we get rid of? How can we simplify this? What is the *right* thing to do here?" It's more like "how big of a kickback will I get if I put in this nasty thing this vendor wants to sell?" or "Does the new system have buzz?" I worked on a gaming system one time (gambling) for embedded Linux systems. I recognized a few really critical bugs that might have even been exploitable. Neither the code shop or the clients gave a hoot. They responded with platitudes when I said "Can we go back and fix the most critical of our 300 bugs before we move on to new features?" The answer: "Not now, maybe later." That's one more lesson at the school of hard knocks, I guess. > It's not clear how much Microsoft is already in that loop. My guess is "a lot". The military seemed to have drank nearly the entire bottle of M$ kool aid, especially the Army. > While the existence of such projects is ... questionable to begin with, > one might think the continual under-delivery (across all military > boondoggles) might give taxpayers pause. 1 TRILLION (with big fat "T") dollars went into the F35 development (that's nearly half of one years tax revenue for the entire country), the results thus far have been pathetic if the news is to be believed. At least most of that money, boondoggle or not, is spent in the USA, I guess. However, I pine for the days when modest efforts produced the incredible SR-71 Blackbird (my all-time favorite aircraft). It was produced relatively quickly compared to the F35. Wikipedia says they started designing it in 1960 and it was flying by 1962. I'm no aviation expert by a long shot, but still that seems infinitely better than the current circus around the F35. I know that they aren't the same type of aircraft, and that the F35 is more "sophisticated" (but still way slower). I also understand that they had a zillion different design goals and basically were trying to please too many masters. I'm not sure who the blame rests with, but I'm right there with you calling the F35 a boondoggle. It hasn't seen battle yet (and I hope it doesn't have to) but I'm a little worried about the fact that it's beaten (badly) in simulations and exercises with much older fighter aircraft with much more "primitive" tech, including Russian aircraft, too. Aviation guys, am I all wet about the F35? -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 10:52:40 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:52:40 -0600 (MDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <005101d1b76f$2b9171a0$82b454e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2016, Bryan C. Everly wrote: > I did work in UNIX on a Series-1 in the telecom space. It probably > still is in use. What kind of Unix did they run? There is almost no information on Wikipedia or elsewhere. I'm just curious because I've heard of PC/IX, IX/370, and of course I'm *very* famililar with "Ain't Unix" uhhh, I mean AIX. :-P I work with it nearly every day. However, I don't know squat about the Unix that ran on a Series-1. -Swift (a guy with a ZOO full of Unix boxes). From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 11:08:45 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 10:08:45 -0600 (MDT) Subject: ASM, Clancy & Harvey, and Agile (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <201605271529.LAA20722@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> <201605271529.LAA20722@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Mouse wrote: > Agile and XP are less about programming productivity in isolation and > more about customer interfacing - and therefore productivity in terms of > producing happy customers Well, as you suspected, I wasn't really thinking about that. That's the convenience of not having to run a business, I suppose. However, I do see your point. I feel sorry for the folks who have to live at the tip of the customer spear, so to speak. > No, if you're idolzing lone-wolf coders producing one-person projects on > their own (or even very small teams, if they already know one another > well), agile will be somewhere between irrelevant and obstructionist. You definitely have me nailed on this one, too. That's exactly who I'm thinking of. I mentioned Carmak. He's sort of the poster child. No degree, no management BS, and has actual successful releases and REAL code that works extremely well and is very well written. However, yes, he's a wizard in a cave (and nowadays seems more interested in rockets anyway). > I will hazard a guess that the projects/companies you're talking about > were not producing code for a customer, but were producing something for > themselves which, once produced, turned out to be appreciated. Yes, you are right. That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of, not customer driven, customer facing type of projects. While I've been a part of those types of efforts, I think for myself personally, it's definitely not the right place for me. However, I certainly won't gainsay you on the benefits of certain methods of interacting with them. It's just not something high on my personal value-system. > There, too, because there is no customer during coding and thus no > changing requirements during coding, and no customer to be kept happy > during coding, agile and XP are irrelevant. If that's the only kind of > coding you care about, or what to do, or whatever, yes, you should > ignore them. That's where I'm coming from, exactly. I know it's not the only perspective, it's just mine. > A nontrivial fraction of the code I write falls into such categories. > But there is also a nontrivial fraction of the code I write that _does_ > have a separate customer, with changing requirements. That's probably why you have a more nuanced and mature philosophy on such things. Jobs I've had which were more "customer facing" generally didn't last long. I have a truth and directness problem (read: lack of subtlety) that doesn't usually endear me to those types of gigs. So, I mostly ignore those types of "opportunities". Nonetheless, I'm probably poorer for it. > While I don't formally do agile, what I do do is in line with many of > the principles behind agile - things like "release early, release > often", short iterations, and constant customer involvement. I can appreciate some of the elements, also. It's just irritating when they start turning it into meeting (oh wait... scrumm) hell and folks are more focused on pushing the methodology than completing the project. That and the forced social interaction are negatives for me, personally. However, I might be describing my own "issues" here more than any formal argument or philosophy. -Swift From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri May 27 11:16:13 2016 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:16:13 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > On May 27, 2016, at 08:41, Swift Griggs wrote: > >> On Thu, 26 May 2016, Toby Thain wrote: >> We're pretty much already there. > > Agreed. You should hear one of my buddies talk about the air traffic > control software he wrote which was replaced with some horror. > >> Audits of the F35 software found: >> * single points of failure (grounding global fleet) >> * security issues >> * that software is the single biggest risk to the project > > One of the principles of Unix: KISS, has been nearly completely lost. > Nobody calls a meeting anymore to say "What can we get rid of? How can we > simplify this? What is the *right* thing to do here?" It's more like "how > big of a kickback will I get if I put in this nasty thing this vendor > wants to sell?" or "Does the new system have buzz?" I worked on F35 software 13 years ago. I am not an aviation systems guy, but I was an expert in a technology being used, which is why I was on the project. I am both shocked and not surprised that development of the plane has taken so long. The software guys there experienced with military contract work said that the project was typical at that point. I left being amazed that anything that comes through the process ever flies. The biggest problem that I saw then was technical choices made without considering the implications of the choices, followed by kludge after kludge to get around yet something else they hadn't considered. I see that all of the time on other projects, but the prime contractor and sub-contractor (and sub-sub-contractor) arrangement that stuff like the F-35 is designed and built make it hard to change a poor technical choice made before the work is subcontracted out. BTW, the primary poor technical choice that I saw was made to reduce costs, not for lock-in or to give some preferred company business. alan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 27 11:19:31 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 12:19:31 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use and restoring them Message-ID: > As far as I can tell, if I suddenly need a specific SLT module, the > odds of finding that specific module at any given time on eBay is > essentially zero. Stuff with standard SLT shows up on Ebay quite often. Not every day, but one could build up a decent pile of SLT cards in time to harvest from. > Some SLT modules are far more common than others. I don't know how > many different SLT modules are used in the 360/30, nor what percentage > of the SLT modules in that machine are common ones. For the standard (slower) families of SLT, their are only a few types of modules - I might guess only 15 or 20 types in something like model 30. They would likely all be 361xxx parts. Anyway, if one confines an S/360 restoration project to sources limited to Ebay and Digikey, one will have a bad time. Look around. IBM made a huge amount of this stuff, and a reasonable amount still survives. -- Will From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri May 27 11:20:32 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:20:32 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <005101d1b76f$2b9171a0$82b454e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <03288B8E-218C-4EB5-81D3-179262BB5304@shiresoft.com> > On May 27, 2016, at 8:52 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Thu, 26 May 2016, Bryan C. Everly wrote: >> I did work in UNIX on a Series-1 in the telecom space. It probably >> still is in use. > > What kind of Unix did they run? There is almost no information on > Wikipedia or elsewhere. I'm just curious because I've heard of PC/IX, > IX/370, and of course I'm *very* famililar with "Ain't Unix" uhhh, I mean > AIX. :-P I work with it nearly every day. However, I don't know squat > about the Unix that ran on a Series-1. > At this point, I don?t remember the version that IBM was working on (but it was an early Unix version). It was never shipped. At the time IBM was developing Unix on the Series/1, it was in negotiations to *purchase* Unix from AT&T (ie IBM would own Unix rather than AT&T). There was a political fight within IBM and the Unix center of competency moved from Boca Raton, FL to Austin, TX. All of the Series/1 Unix materials were destroyed at that point (it was a *nasty* fight). TTFN - Guy From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 27 11:20:57 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 11:20:57 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57479E10.2010908@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <574873E9.2060000@pico-systems.com> On 05/26/2016 10:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Another CHM volunteer (from the PDP-1 Restoration Project) and I >> pushed for an IBM 360/30 Restoration Project, and the ability to build >> replacements for failed SLT modules was part of our plan. > I am still trying to figure in which universe are SLT modules so rare > that one needs to fabricate replacements. > > OK, where can you buy some? They haven't been made since about 1970. IBM sent out a letter to all 360 users who had machines under contract, giving a date when they would no longer guarantee that any particular machine could be repaired, due to lack of spare modules, and a second (later) date when they would drop all contracts and no longer make ANY parts available, due to the need to keep the National Airspace System running. The IBM 9020 system was composed of slightly modified 360/50 and 360/65 processors, and attempts to replace them with more modern technology had several notable failures. These systems were in use until ** 1989 **! They were finally replaced with IBM 3083 processors. I suppose somebody may have a warehouse full of old SLT cards, but I've certainly never heard of it. SLT modules were NOT terribly reliable, as compared to MST or newer technologies. Remember, SLT is DISCRETE transistors and diodes on ceramic hybrid substrates. At least in my experience, mid-size 360's would need a card replaced every few months. I have no idea what the failure rate would be in cold storage rather than in power-on 24/7, which is what they did at Wash U. (ISTR that maybe Rolla shut their 360/50 down every night. I don't know if that is worse due to thermal cycling or better due to less power-on hours.) But, I'll bet that oxygen and moisture will continue to take their toll at a slower rate. Remember, all this gear is now about 50 years old! Jon From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 27 11:27:39 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 12:27:39 -0400 Subject: Doomed, expensive IT projects billed to taxpayers - was Re: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <67ee908a-68bd-9bbb-a0d7-fcc8fa4c971a@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-27 12:16 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > > >> On May 27, 2016, at 08:41, Swift Griggs wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 26 May 2016, Toby Thain wrote: >>> We're pretty much already there. >> >> Agreed. You should hear one of my buddies talk about the air traffic >> control software he wrote which was replaced with some horror. >> >>> Audits of the F35 software found: >>> * single points of failure (grounding global fleet) >>> * security issues >>> * that software is the single biggest risk to the project >> >> One of the principles of Unix: KISS, has been nearly completely lost. >> Nobody calls a meeting anymore to say "What can we get rid of? How can we >> simplify this? What is the *right* thing to do here?" It's more like "how >> big of a kickback will I get if I put in this nasty thing this vendor >> wants to sell?" or "Does the new system have buzz?" > > I worked on F35 software 13 years ago. I am not an aviation systems guy, but I was an expert in a technology being used, which is why I was on the project. > > I am both shocked and not surprised that development of the plane has taken so long. The software guys there experienced with military contract work said that the project was typical at that point. I left being amazed that anything that comes through the process ever flies. > > The biggest problem that I saw then was technical choices made without considering the implications of the choices, followed by kludge after kludge to get around yet something else they hadn't considered. I see that all of the time on other projects, but the prime contractor and sub-contractor (and sub-sub-contractor) arrangement that stuff like the F-35 is designed and built make it hard to change a poor technical choice made before the work is subcontracted out. > > BTW, the primary poor technical choice that I saw was made to reduce costs, not for lock-in or to give some preferred company business. > It seems that Texas could take some lessons in "reducing costs": https://www.texastribune.org/2015/02/01/cost-overruns-and-bungles-state-contracting/ But, "Since fiscal 2008, Texas has paid Accenture more than $6.3 billion for a range of projects, including Medicaid payment services, according to the state comptroller?s office." http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/a-troubled-state-contract-gets-renewed-scrutiny-bu/npC9Q/ It's almost like there's something else going on, when billing gets into the 8-11 figure range! Oh, wait, what if we google "accenture kickbacks"??? --Toby > alan > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 27 11:29:43 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 12:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use Message-ID: <20160527162943.615A318C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > There was a political fight within IBM and the Unix center of > competency moved .. All of the Series/1 Unix materials were destroyed > at that point I wonder if any of the engineers who worked on it kept a copy at home (as engineers will often do)? Noel From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri May 27 11:31:55 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:31:55 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <20160527162943.615A318C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160527162943.615A318C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1E86D179-63D9-44C0-9B6D-9D15079A4767@shiresoft.com> > On May 27, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > >> There was a political fight within IBM and the Unix center of >> competency moved .. All of the Series/1 Unix materials were destroyed >> at that point > > I wonder if any of the engineers who worked on it kept a copy at home (as > engineers will often do)? > I don?t recall anyone who did but everyone was locked out of the labs until security came through and collected all the materials. TTFN - Guy From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 27 11:35:33 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 11:35:33 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57479E10.2010908@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57487755.3030104@pico-systems.com> On 05/27/2016 01:30 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: >> Another CHM volunteer (from the PDP-1 Restoration Project) and I >> pushed for an IBM 360/30 Restoration Project, and the ability to build >> replacements for failed SLT modules was part of our plan. > On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 9:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I am still trying to figure in which universe are SLT modules so rare >> that one needs to fabricate replacements. > As far as I can tell, if I suddenly need a specific SLT module, the > odds of finding that specific module at any given time on eBay is > essentially zero. > > Obviously if we could find an authentic replacement, we'd prefer that. > We didn't want the entire restoration to be dependent on having to > find authentic replacements. > > Some SLT modules are far more common than others. I don't know how > many different SLT modules are used in the 360/30, nor what percentage > of the SLT modules in that machine are common ones. When we restored > the DEC PDP-1, it contained quite a few DEC System Modules from DEC's > standard catalog and that we had spares of, but it also contained a > non-trivial number of specialized modules that are much harder to > find, if not impossible. I'm guessing that IBM machines were probably > similar. > OK, there are hundreds of different SLT "cards", ie. the PC boards. But, reading some FE docs on bitsavers, it seems that all SLT 360's were built with 95+ % of the SLT "modules" consisting of only 6 types. (I've never understood why the SLT modules had to have 8-digit or something part numbers if there were only 6 types.) So, when I was talking about making replacement SLT MODULES, I meant to fabricate tiny 1/2" x 1/2" PC boards with 12 leads, that could be mounted where the failed small SLT module had been. In IBM terminology, they have SLT modules, which are 1/2" square ceramic substrates with thin-film resistors fired onto the ceramic, then silver-bearing conductors are printed on and fired, and finally bump-bonded transistors and diodes are soldered onto the conductors. A drawn aluminum cover is epoxied to the ceramic. Then, these modules are installed on boards, which can be single-side or double wide. They have connectors on one edge, which plugs into a "BOARD". The boards were roughly 9 x 12", I think, and had rows of pins on both sides. The SLT cards plugged into one side of the board. The boards were multilayer, and the inner layers distributed power and ground. Surface layers had application-specific wiring. Then, more wiring was added to the back side with wire-wrap wire. Also, around the edges of the board, there were places where 18-signal transmission line cables could be plugged. These had the same layout as the SLT card connectors, 24 contacts on .125" spacing. The transmission line cables were clear flat ribbons with 3 wires per signal. So, they went ground-signal-ground-ground-signal-ground, etc. The neighboring ground wires were much closer together than the ground-signal spacing. These had a characteristic impedance of 93 Ohms, I think. On IBM 370's they split up these cables into individual signals to reduce crosstalk. They retained the 3-wire/signal scheme, and called them tri-lead. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 27 11:45:08 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 12:45:08 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <574873E9.2060000@pico-systems.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57479E10.2010908@pico-systems.com> <574873E9.2060000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > OK, where can you buy some? You ask the community. You ask on the list or elsewhere. "Hey, I need a 361459. Anyone have one?". >They haven't been made since about 1970. But in those six or seven years - wow, did they make a lot of them. In Binghamton, we have some of those dumb desk ornament things that suits like to hand out. One of them is has the 100 Millionth (!) SLT module (OK, we know that being a dumb desk ornament, they probably made some number of 100 Millionth SLT module, but the point is clear). Oh, and the desk ornament is dated fairly early in the game! > IBM > sent out a letter to all 360 users who had machines under contract, giving a > date when they would no longer guarantee that any particular machine could > be repaired, due to lack of spare modules, and a second (later) date when Typical IBM. > Remember, SLT is DISCRETE transistors and diodes on ceramic > hybrid substrates. At least in my experience, mid-size 360's would need a > card replaced every few months. SLT and S/360s did indeed have teething problems. It took a while to get the bugs out of the system. > But, I'll bet that oxygen and moisture will continue to take their toll at a > slower rate. Remember, all this gear is now about 50 years old! IBM SLT cards and modules seem to do well - I have picked up more than a few that were exposed to the elements, and if they are not beaten up (curse those crappy thin aluminum covers they used!), moisture tends to not be a big issue, thanks to the silicone goop underneath. -- Will From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 11:46:37 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 10:46:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <03288B8E-218C-4EB5-81D3-179262BB5304@shiresoft.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <005101d1b76f$2b9171a0$82b454e0$@classiccmp.org> <03288B8E-218C-4EB5-81D3-179262BB5304@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > There was a political fight within IBM and the Unix center of competency > moved from Boca Raton, FL to Austin, TX. All of the Series/1 Unix > materials were destroyed at that point (it was a *nasty* fight). That sounds very much like IBM. I was there for @ four years (from 2000 to the end of 2003). When people ask me about it, I tell them "IBM is 300,000 employees. That's like a large city. In a city you have a nice part of town (Watson) where people can more or less follow their dreams and make all kinds of neat/crazy stuff. Then there is the slums (IBM GS) where folks are treated like crap and act like animals." Man, they destroyed the materials.... daaaamn. That's some hatin' -Swift (a guy with enough hubris to quote himself, har har) From jws at jwsss.com Fri May 27 11:49:01 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:49:01 -0700 Subject: ASM, Clancy & Harvey, and Agile (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> <201605271529.LAA20722@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 5/27/2016 9:08 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: >> While I don't formally do agile, what I do do is in line with many of >> >the principles behind agile - things like "release early, release >> >often", short iterations, and constant customer involvement. > I can appreciate some of the elements, also. It's just irritating when > they start turning it into meeting (oh wait... scrumm) hell and folks are > more focused on pushing the methodology than completing the project. I had the task of doing mouse firmware for a project that ws a huge 40 person C++ object oriented mass of crap with all the stuff that goes with that. Note Customer here means the entity that consumes or engages your end product. In this case there were other bits involved that were also large blank page projects, since this was an aircraft product. The hardware, manufacturing, test program, and even business and marketing were all formal, with little of the bullshit you'd think of as random operations in especially marketing and sales. But in my tiny corner they were all blockheads about what I had to do to be "agile" and I just basically said go f yourselves. I was basically expanding a manufacturer supplied sample code set, and I always work iteratively, but a lot of the things I had to do had to respond to things that were not planned. The model of formally planning out the stuff that Agile has sometimes doesn't work. Especially in places where embedded programming is involved. But if the managers would look at what you have to do, frequently it is a modified version of that. In this case the manager had never touched low level programming which was part hardware and software ever, and didn't get how much had to be "tried" and modified. Luckily there were people who got the problem and eventually it was a good project. Thanks jim From derschjo at gmail.com Fri May 27 11:54:58 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:54:58 -0700 Subject: ASM, Clancy & Harvey, and Agile (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 7:59 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Thu, 26 May 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I had words with Clancy and Harvey. While need may be diminshed, there > > is never a complete elimination of the need to pay attention to, and > > optimize near, the level of hardware. > > I'm going to loudly agree here. While I find assembly coding somewhat > tedious, I wonder what kind of Jedi mind trick "Clancy and Harvey" used to > make themselves believe that asm was not only dead but also no longer > useful. *eye roll* Whatever, geniuses. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the > quote? Are they serious? Is this out of context and I'm just not "getting" > what they really meant? > > There are all kinds of seemingly instinctual reactions that some folks > have to questions of programming style and efficiency. My *least* > favorites are: > > 1. The "GUI programming" or "natural language" folks who think that > programming really isn't that hard, the problem is that we haven't given > folks Fischer-Price icons for control structures, or allowed people > "simply tell the computer what to do." I simply call BS. > > 2. Languages that are supposed to "enlighten" students to some incredible > new programming paradigm, or bolt-ons that to older languages with the > same claims. They almost always start their pitch by telling you how some > irritating or tedious aspect of coding in other languages can be > eliminated or minimized. I'm more and more skeptical of this claim all the > time. It rarely works out and generally making things "safer" or "easier" > runs a big risk of neutering their usefulness, too. > > > > Those languages who successfully walk the line between power and ease of > use are the ones that survive and thrive (and sometimes it's just > chance/luck as Dennis Ritchie said about C). > > The bottom line is that coding is work. It takes creativity, analytical > and critical thinking ability, and probably most important of all: > practice. IMHO, there aren't any shortcuts. You work and you get results. > As tedious as it is, I can think of several contexts were ASM is downright > required. Folks who think there is a magic bullet or shortcut seem to fall > into the same mistakes while calling them something new. Folks who resent > the work & sweat that others do to get those skills are generally the ones > who are screaming the loudest about how programming is really easy, but > it's the geeks who are just overcomplicating things and are making it "so > hard". > > Then they or folks with the same mindset generally start talking about > Agile, XP, or some "methodology" that's going to somehow free them from > the basic fact that good experienced coders write the best code and > deliver. You can't simply iron on a methodology and turn a team full of > lazy or careless coders into something else. At best, you can catch more > of their errors and report on the ones that aren't being productive and > hope your management pays attention. I've worked under Agile and XP > regimes and I hate both with a passion. They were both a *huge* > productivity drag (ever actually tried "pair programming"?) and seemed to > me to be an effort to make business weasels feel more comfortable that > their coders were "communicating" and other social crapola they think is > important since most of what they do is sit around and run their mouths in > meetings all day. I'm sure some folks will disagree, but I've *actually > worked* under these schemes. In my experience (and the vast majority of my > co-workers) they were awful. It also seems to me that all the "greats" > (incredible coders) and software projects or companies I loved or > respected weren't "Agile". They simply hired the right people and got out > of the way. Give me the "wizard in a cave" methodology anyday over "1000 > H1Bs writing Shakespeare using Agile". Results matter more than > mollycottled business majors and project manager feelings... uhh, IHMO. > Who would you want helping you finish your project, Dr. Jeff Sutherland or > John Carmack? Which do you think is going to get you there sooner and with > better results? I know how I'd answer... > > This mentality I dislike is a bit like saying the only reason you can't > play violin is, not because you don't practice and are too lazy to work at > it.... noooo it's because the violin is poorly designed, the wrong brand, > and because you aren't practicing in the right order with your head turned > in the proper direction. Yeah. Right. > > I'm not saying the state of the art can't be improved. I only assert that > there are some strategies for doing so that seem flawed from the start > because they start with unrealistic (or downright silly) founding > principles. > Oh, I see what's going on. See, this is the "cctalk" (Classic Computing Talk) mailing list. I think what you're meaning to send this to is the "ccctalk" (Cranky C Curmudgeons Talk) mailing list. Could we maybe talk about classic computing rather than go on endlessly about the lazy kids these days with their saggy pants and their terrible loud programming languages? - Josh > > -Swift > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 27 11:55:01 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 12:55:01 -0400 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <57487755.3030104@pico-systems.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57479E10.2010908@pico-systems.com> <57487755.3030104@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > OK, there are hundreds of different SLT "cards", ie. the PC boards. But, > reading some FE docs on bitsavers, it seems that all SLT 360's were built > with 95+ % of the SLT "modules" consisting of only 6 types. Yes, a remarkably few number of modules make up a huge bulk of the population. Of course there are some rare types, like the high speed versions or the ones that IBM farmed out, but they can mostly be ignored. > So, when I was talking about making replacement SLT MODULES, I meant to > fabricate tiny 1/2" x 1/2" PC boards with 12 leads, that could be mounted > where the failed small SLT module had been. Yes, those are the things that are really pretty common. > In IBM terminology, Chip, module, card, board, gate. I suppose chip level repair might be possible with today's SOTs, but I would not want to do it! -- Will From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri May 27 11:57:24 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:57:24 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <005101d1b76f$2b9171a0$82b454e0$@classiccmp.org> <03288B8E-218C-4EB5-81D3-179262BB5304@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <42CEAE0F-2CDF-442D-9C89-227808284FD1@shiresoft.com> > On May 27, 2016, at 9:46 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Fri, 27 May 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> There was a political fight within IBM and the Unix center of competency >> moved from Boca Raton, FL to Austin, TX. All of the Series/1 Unix >> materials were destroyed at that point (it was a *nasty* fight). > > That sounds very much like IBM. I was there for @ four years (from 2000 > to the end of 2003). When people ask me about it, I tell them "IBM is > 300,000 employees. That's like a large city. In a city you have a nice > part of town (Watson) where people can more or less follow their dreams > and make all kinds of neat/crazy stuff. Then there is the slums (IBM GS) > where folks are treated like crap and act like animals." > > Man, they destroyed the materials.... daaaamn. That's some hatin? I was at IBM from 1979 through 1997. Started in Boca Raton and finished up in Austin. There was a lot of politics going on the entire time I was there. One of the reasons that I left was that the project that I helped start (and worked on for 5+ years) was cancelled because a director got himself into trouble with OS/2 (when was it *not* in trouble) and decided that the folks who were working on the project I was on (who were considered the ?stars? of the division) would be better applied to OS/2 (we cancelled SW that customers had already paid for). I don?t think any of us who were ?drafted? into OS/2 stayed more than a year after that. TTFN - Guy From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 27 11:59:55 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 17:59:55 +0100 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <00c101d1b77c$0d1e43d0$275acb70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <066901d1b839$31c2ed40$9548c7c0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Swift > Griggs > Sent: 27 May 2016 16:11 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: vintage computers in active use > > On Thu, 26 May 2016, Dave Wade wrote: > > Assembler on a Series/1 is a problem as it's a closed system. Can't be > > run under emulation. No modern replacements available. > > You make some excellent points about the hardware and the difficulty of > emulation et al. When it comes to firing nuclear weapons, personally I'd like > to see computers *removed* from the equation as much as is practical. > The protocols for firing should be as embedded as much as possible in human > chain of command and the Missileers, not the computers. The controls are > currently physically isolated and require simultainous key-turns by two > individuals etc.. I have much more faith in something like that than in > software or computer hardware. Anatoli Bugorski can tell you all about the > effectiveness of "safety software". > > If they putting Windows boxes in missile silos, well... Prepare for WWIII. > It's a bit like the last time I was in an ER and they couldn't accept patients > because their Windows machines kept blue-screening due to a virus. > Windows in an ER? Yep. This insanity is now the norm. > For some reason Windows computers in Hospital seem especially prone to viral infections. When I worked in a Windows shop the usual source of nasties was down level JAVA which was frequently needed for obsolete software.. > -Swift As far as I know Computers have been managing missiles for a long time now. I can see issues dating back a long time reported here:- http://nuclearfiles.org/menu/key-issues/nuclear-weapons/issues/accidents/20- mishaps-maybe-caused-nuclear-war.htm I remember I was on a Honeywell course, must have been around 1980, when one of these happened. The performance of the machine we were using on the course was somewhat less than sparkling, or at least our batch jobs were being held in queues for a long time. We joked that if the WWMCCS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Military_Command_and_Control_System was running anything like as well as our GCOS systems (which were basically the same) the US had no chance..... ... wake the President, give him terminal, he logs in .... USER: Mr.President Password" ********** Ready; Launch Missiles Thank You Mr.President, your job L1A is at position 100 in queue .atest9... Estimated time to execution 1 Day 4 Hours.... .... Dave G4UGM From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 27 12:00:04 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 13:00:04 -0400 Subject: ASM, Clancy & Harvey, and Agile (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2016-05-27 12:54 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 7:59 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > >> On Thu, 26 May 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: >> ... >> I'm not saying the state of the art can't be improved. I only assert that >> there are some strategies for doing so that seem flawed from the start >> because they start with unrealistic (or downright silly) founding >> principles. >> > > Oh, I see what's going on. See, this is the "cctalk" (Classic Computing > Talk) mailing list. I think what you're meaning to send this to is the > "ccctalk" (Cranky C Curmudgeons Talk) mailing list. I think what you are observing is the non trivial intersection. :) --Toby > Could we maybe talk > about classic computing ... > > - Josh > > > >> >> -Swift >> > From wsudol at freedom.com Fri May 27 11:06:29 2016 From: wsudol at freedom.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 16:06:29 +0000 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <005101d1b76f$2b9171a0$82b454e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Series/1 used either EDX ( Event Driven Executive) or RPS (Realtime Programming Systems) Could be programmed in a variety of languages. I think I used COBOL on EDX. The app was a Transaction -processing Newspaper Classified Order Entry system supporting 300 seats. The project started in 1976 well before PC's were around. The architecture was Zentec programmable 8080 based Terminal for the user interface, data sent to Series/1 via BI-SYNC protocol, then forwarded to IBM 3032. I did the programming for the Zentec. It was fun! It had no operating system at all. Just 8080 interupts. Basically you wrote assembly language to grab the character from the kb interupt and figure out what to do with it. (like store the character on the screen, move the cursor left (or right if delete char) ) and a bunch of other stuff. -Wayne -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Swift Griggs Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 8:53 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: vintage computers in active use On Thu, 26 May 2016, Bryan C. Everly wrote: > I did work in UNIX on a Series-1 in the telecom space. It probably > still is in use. What kind of Unix did they run? There is almost no information on Wikipedia or elsewhere. I'm just curious because I've heard of PC/IX, IX/370, and of course I'm *very* famililar with "Ain't Unix" uhhh, I mean AIX. :-P I work with it nearly every day. However, I don't know squat about the Unix that ran on a Series-1. -Swift (a guy with a ZOO full of Unix boxes). From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 12:29:27 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 10:29:27 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level Message-ID: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say he is less than impressed is understating things :). However, I am determined that he will learn basic computer terminology, architecture, history (i.e. how we got here) and at least get his feet wet with programming by learning BASIC this summer. Apparently teaching is not my strong suite - while I can talk about a larger number of the above topics, especially at his level, organizing them in a way to make sense is the problem. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good book that gets the basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU, memory, storage, etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and maybe another one that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young reader? It would be nice if the book is in the PD or at least available as a PDF that way he can read it on his Kindle. However, I am not averse to buying a physical new (or used book) either. Thanks. -Ali From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri May 27 12:36:50 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 18:36:50 +0100 Subject: Front Panel News - New production run coming up Message-ID: Hi Our order for front panel blanks has now arrived. We have enough to make ten of each of PDP-8/e (A) PDP-8/e(B) PDP-8/f PDP-8/i * PDP-8/L * PDP-8/m * New - uses a 465mm x 150 mm panel I'm expecting production of PDP-8/e (A) and PDP-8/e(B) to start on Tuesday 31-MAY-2016 at one layer per day (allowing for drying time) plus set up and packing. The first panels should start coming off the line on or about 8-JUN-2016. PDP-8/f and PDP-8/m should start about the 13-JUN-2016 finishing about 22-JUN-2016 Followed by PDP-8/i Followed by PDP-8/L Followed by PDP-II/XX Price remains unchanged at USD150.00 per panel plus USD20 shipping. Payment to PayPal rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com There's only ten of each type so one of each type per customer please Back orders ship first then in order received sequence. _*Just a quick note about production techniques. *_ The printing is done by hand on a printing table. Its a big heavy cast iron tray about a foot deep and five feet square. It stands about three feet high There are hundreds of small holes in the bottom to allow a vacuum to hold down whats being printed. On top of the table is an arrangement of bars and slides to allow one or more silk screen frames to brought down on a work piece held down by the vacuum. Next to the table is the drying rack. It looks like half a giant rolodex. You put your wet work between the pages.They are made of open mesh panels to allow air to circulate. You start by marking the position of the blank panel on the bottom of the table. Then the first screen is positioned over the work and horizontal movement locked. You can still move the frame vertically. Position your work between the marked guides on the bottom of the table. Bring down the frame and drag the ink across the screen. Put the wet printed blank in the drying frame and repeat for each panel in the batch. Wait 24 hours and setup your next fame for the next layer(color) Take first panel out of drying rack print and replace. Repeat for each board in the batch until done. Cycle time per batch about eight days elapsed. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri May 27 12:49:51 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 13:49:51 -0400 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> Message-ID: Trombetta wrote a book "BASIC for students using the IBM PC" On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Ali wrote: > So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say he > is less than impressed is understating things :). However, I am determined > that he will learn basic computer terminology, architecture, history (i.e. > how we got here) and at least get his feet wet with programming by learning > BASIC this summer. > > Apparently teaching is not my strong suite - while I can talk about a > larger > number of the above topics, especially at his level, organizing them in a > way to make sense is the problem. I was wondering if anyone could recommend > a good book that gets the basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU, > memory, storage, etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and maybe > another one that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young reader? > It would be nice if the book is in the PD or at least available as a PDF > that way he can read it on his Kindle. However, I am not averse to buying a > physical new (or used book) either. > > Thanks. > > -Ali > > > > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From sales at elecplus.com Fri May 27 13:11:56 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 13:11:56 -0500 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> Message-ID: <045601d1b843$415bcd30$c4136790$@com> http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Handbook-Encyclopedia-Computer-Language/dp/09327 60333/ for the basics of BASIC http://www.amazon.com/BASIC-Computer-Games-Microcomputer-David/dp/0894800523 / for games he can program in BASIC from there go to http://www.amazon.com/Creating-Adventure-Games-Your-Computer/dp/0345318838/ and http://www.amazon.com/More-Basic-Computer-Games-David/dp/0894801376/ One designed for elementary school kids that does not use BASIC is https://www.amazon.com/Coding-Kids-Dummies-Camille-McCue-ebook/dp/B00MFPZASK which works on a Mac or PC. There is nothing like making your first program work to make a youngster feel like a god! Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ali Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 12:29 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say he is less than impressed is understating things :). However, I am determined that he will learn basic computer terminology, architecture, history (i.e. how we got here) and at least get his feet wet with programming by learning BASIC this summer. Apparently teaching is not my strong suite - while I can talk about a larger number of the above topics, especially at his level, organizing them in a way to make sense is the problem. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good book that gets the basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU, memory, storage, etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and maybe another one that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young reader? It would be nice if the book is in the PD or at least available as a PDF that way he can read it on his Kindle. However, I am not averse to buying a physical new (or used book) either. Thanks. -Ali From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri May 27 13:19:25 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:19:25 -0400 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <045601d1b843$415bcd30$c4136790$@com> Message-ID: I learned BASIC around that age. I used the Usborne book, which has been made available as a PDF file by the publisher: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxv0SsvibDMTUXdYTnRaTy1LLVE/view Op 27 mei 2016 8:12 p.m. schreef "Electronics Plus" : http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Handbook-Encyclopedia-Computer-Language/dp/09327 60333/ for the basics of BASIC http://www.amazon.com/BASIC-Computer-Games-Microcomputer-David/dp/0894800523 / for games he can program in BASIC from there go to http://www.amazon.com/Creating-Adventure-Games-Your-Computer/dp/0345318838/ and http://www.amazon.com/More-Basic-Computer-Games-David/dp/0894801376/ One designed for elementary school kids that does not use BASIC is https://www.amazon.com/Coding-Kids-Dummies-Camille-McCue-ebook/dp/B00MFPZASK which works on a Mac or PC. There is nothing like making your first program work to make a youngster feel like a god! Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ali Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 12:29 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say he is less than impressed is understating things :). However, I am determined that he will learn basic computer terminology, architecture, history (i.e. how we got here) and at least get his feet wet with programming by learning BASIC this summer. Apparently teaching is not my strong suite - while I can talk about a larger number of the above topics, especially at his level, organizing them in a way to make sense is the problem. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good book that gets the basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU, memory, storage, etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and maybe another one that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young reader? It would be nice if the book is in the PD or at least available as a PDF that way he can read it on his Kindle. However, I am not averse to buying a physical new (or used book) either. Thanks. -Ali From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri May 27 13:36:48 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 13:36:48 -0500 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> Message-ID: I can suggest "Instant BASIC: Freeze-dried Computer Programming: Jerald R. Brown" as a good kids entry-level text. Like numerous other 1980s era DIY computer books, it's probably available for free download from archive.org. I also have a spare copy. And BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to Perl or Python ASAP. Basic -> Perl is very easy, heck you can even use line numbers if you want.. and it's a far more useful language in the modern environment. On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 12:49 PM, william degnan wrote: > Trombetta wrote a book > "BASIC for students using the IBM PC" > > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Ali wrote: > > > So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say > he > > is less than impressed is understating things :). However, I am > determined > > that he will learn basic computer terminology, architecture, history > (i.e. > > how we got here) and at least get his feet wet with programming by > learning > > BASIC this summer. > > > > Apparently teaching is not my strong suite - while I can talk about a > > larger > > number of the above topics, especially at his level, organizing them in a > > way to make sense is the problem. I was wondering if anyone could > recommend > > a good book that gets the basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU, > > memory, storage, etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and > maybe > > another one that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young > reader? > > It would be nice if the book is in the PD or at least available as a PDF > > that way he can read it on his Kindle. However, I am not averse to > buying a > > physical new (or used book) either. > > > > Thanks. > > > > -Ali > > > > > > > > > > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri May 27 13:37:51 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 11:37:51 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <1E86D179-63D9-44C0-9B6D-9D15079A4767@shiresoft.com> References: <20160527162943.615A318C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1E86D179-63D9-44C0-9B6D-9D15079A4767@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On May 27, 2016, at 09:31 , Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > > I don?t recall anyone who did but everyone was locked out of the labs until > security came through and collected all the materials. Wow, that's a legendary level of spite. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ats at offog.org Fri May 27 13:43:17 2016 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 19:43:17 +0100 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> (Ali's message of "Fri, 27 May 2016 10:29:27 -0700") References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> Message-ID: "Ali" writes: > I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good book that gets the > basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU, memory, storage, > etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and maybe another one > that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young reader? Most of the Usborne books from the 80s are available on Usborne's web site as PDFs -- "Simple BASIC" (for younger readers) or "Introduction to Computer Programming" (for slightly older readers) might fit the bill: http://www.usborne.com/catalogue/feature-page/computer-and-coding-books.aspx (My copy of "Write Your Own Adventure Programs" lives on my bookshelf at work next to Knuth and K&R...) -- Adam Sampson From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 27 14:25:39 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 12:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASM, Clancy & Harvey, and Agile (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > I had words with Clancy and Harvey. While need may be diminshed, > > there is never a complete elimination of the need to pay attention to, > > and optimize near, the level of hardware. [top posted, with Swift's remarks below] The Clancy and Harvey topic is about curriculum, and teaching of "computer science". Clancy and Harvey were/are two lecturers at UC Berkeley, who ended up in charge of lower division under-graduate CS. First, I'll explain OUR curriculum at the community college, since that is what I know. We had a varied mix of re-entry of dropouts, job training, AA degrees, preparation for transfer to 4 year colleges, skills enhancement for people employed in related jobs ("I want to take a course in C"), and adult enrichment. We started off with an extremely simple introductory course that did not assume that the student had ever seen a computer. (In 1980 or so, that was a necessary assumption). Offered as a 6 week drive-by, but generally a full semester for those who intended to go further. It had just enough programming in it that a student would successfully create a program. (often done with BASIC) Then an Introduction To Programming, with basic principles and concepts. Illustrated with multiple languages, but concentrating on a language of the instructor's choice for some minor projects. Then choices of courses in multiple languages: COBOL (2 semester levels), FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, RPG, C, Mainframe Assembly (360/370), Microcomputer Assembly (X86), and occasional ones for only a few years each including RPG, ADA, etc. Not all classes offered every semester. Also work skills classes in using Microsoft Office, etc. Data Structures And Algorithms, with a prerequisite of at least one programming language, and taught in language of instructor's choice (I used C, but I let students substitute other languages). When I taught it, I included iterative V recursive tree algorithms. I also taught "Microcomputer Disk Operating Systems" (heavy on MS-DOS, but trying to actually teach the principles applicable to ANY), and "Advanced Microcomputer Programming" (prerequisite of C and Assembly) which included TSRs, device drivers, walking directory trees, mixed language programming and stackframe structure, etc. One of the assignments was to write a program that would display a complete directory of the disk. I taught with C, X86 ASM, and MS-DOS, but students were free to substitute other languages and unix, Mac, or whatever, for their assignments. I tried to implement a basic information science course on access to online information resources, but our curriculum committee vetoed it and rewrote it into how to surf the web. We had constant struggles with the administration, who wanted to, and eventually succeeded at, removal of all advanced courses and anything with a prerequisite. They REALLY wanted our department to be nothing but remedial job training for the digital sweatshop. They killed EVERYTHING that had been worthwhile! By 2013, when I finally told them to take my 33 year job and shovel it, I had still been unable to get them to let me try to do a basic beginning Information Science course (DIK/W/E, relevance ranking, economics and legalities of IP, recall/precision interaction, social impact of access, search engine algorithms, SEO, etc.) Anyway, back to, . . . Clancy and Harvey reworked the UC undergraduate lower division (first two years) curriculum. They setup a three course sequence at the core, consisting of "Abstraction", "Data Structures", and "Demystification". They called a meeting of local CS departments to tell us what we should switch over to teaching. They chose Scheme (a LISP derivative) for the first course. They thought that recursion should be the fundamental basis of computer programming, even down to COUNTING from 1 to 10. I used to usually give an assignment of Fibonacci numbers as an exercise in loop controls, etc. - I was a little taken aback when somebody from UC thought that it meant that I was starting my students off with recursion! They gave a small example, which they declared CAN NOT (not "must not") be done with anything except recursion. While they were putting it on the board, I coded it on my notepad as a two dimensional array with a nested loop in C, BASIC, Fortran, and got partway through COBOL. (I take offense at being told things are "impossible" to do in other languages - "difficult" or "inappropriate" are acceptable). Their "Data Structures" class was to be taught using C. I asked about their C class. They didn't have one, and declared that all students are assumed to already know C before they arrived there! Their "Demystification" would be the first time that the students would be made aware of existence of anything under the hood. They declared, "Nobody programs in Assembly language any more, nor ever will again." I asked about timeline for implementation of the new curriculum. They stated that it had been in place for a couple of years. I pointed out that it was not reflected in the current catalog, and asked when they expected the catalog to catch up. They insisted that that must just be a glitch in the printing of that years catalog, that it had been updated for a few years. (THAT was a lie. I went over to Doe Library and xeroxed the pages from the last five years of catalogs) They had a brilliant visionary concept of CS education. Which I don't agree with. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Fri, 27 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > I'm going to loudly agree here. While I find assembly coding somewhat > tedious, I wonder what kind of Jedi mind trick "Clancy and Harvey" used to > make themselves believe that asm was not only dead but also no longer > useful. *eye roll* Whatever, geniuses. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the > quote? Are they serious? Is this out of context and I'm just not "getting" > what they really meant? > > There are all kinds of seemingly instinctual reactions that some folks > have to questions of programming style and efficiency. My *least* > favorites are: > > 1. The "GUI programming" or "natural language" folks who think that > programming really isn't that hard, the problem is that we haven't given > folks Fischer-Price icons for control structures, or allowed people > "simply tell the computer what to do." I simply call BS. > > 2. Languages that are supposed to "enlighten" students to some incredible > new programming paradigm, or bolt-ons that to older languages with the > same claims. They almost always start their pitch by telling you how some > irritating or tedious aspect of coding in other languages can be > eliminated or minimized. I'm more and more skeptical of this claim all the > time. It rarely works out and generally making things "safer" or "easier" > runs a big risk of neutering their usefulness, too. > > Those languages who successfully walk the line between power and ease of > use are the ones that survive and thrive (and sometimes it's just > chance/luck as Dennis Ritchie said about C). > > The bottom line is that coding is work. It takes creativity, analytical > and critical thinking ability, and probably most important of all: > practice. IMHO, there aren't any shortcuts. You work and you get results. > As tedious as it is, I can think of several contexts were ASM is downright > required. Folks who think there is a magic bullet or shortcut seem to fall > into the same mistakes while calling them something new. Folks who resent > the work & sweat that others do to get those skills are generally the ones > who are screaming the loudest about how programming is really easy, but > it's the geeks who are just overcomplicating things and are making it "so > hard". > > Then they or folks with the same mindset generally start talking about > Agile, XP, or some "methodology" that's going to somehow free them from > the basic fact that good experienced coders write the best code and > deliver. You can't simply iron on a methodology and turn a team full of > lazy or careless coders into something else. At best, you can catch more > of their errors and report on the ones that aren't being productive and > hope your management pays attention. I've worked under Agile and XP > regimes and I hate both with a passion. They were both a *huge* > productivity drag (ever actually tried "pair programming"?) and seemed to > me to be an effort to make business weasels feel more comfortable that > their coders were "communicating" and other social crapola they think is > important since most of what they do is sit around and run their mouths in > meetings all day. I'm sure some folks will disagree, but I've *actually > worked* under these schemes. In my experience (and the vast majority of my > co-workers) they were awful. It also seems to me that all the "greats" > (incredible coders) and software projects or companies I loved or > respected weren't "Agile". They simply hired the right people and got out > of the way. Give me the "wizard in a cave" methodology anyday over "1000 > H1Bs writing Shakespeare using Agile". Results matter more than > mollycottled business majors and project manager feelings... uhh, IHMO. > Who would you want helping you finish your project, Dr. Jeff Sutherland or > John Carmack? Which do you think is going to get you there sooner and with > better results? I know how I'd answer... > > This mentality I dislike is a bit like saying the only reason you can't > play violin is, not because you don't practice and are too lazy to work at > it.... noooo it's because the violin is poorly designed, the wrong brand, > and because you aren't practicing in the right order with your head turned > in the proper direction. Yeah. Right. > > I'm not saying the state of the art can't be improved. I only assert that > there are some strategies for doing so that seem flawed from the start > because they start with unrealistic (or downright silly) founding > principles. > -Swift From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri May 27 14:33:22 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:33:22 -0400 Subject: ASM, Clancy & Harvey, and Agile (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On May 27, 2016, at 3:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > ... > Anyway, back to, . . . > Clancy and Harvey reworked the UC undergraduate lower division (first two years) curriculum. They setup a three course sequence at the core, consisting of "Abstraction", "Data Structures", and "Demystification". They called a meeting of local CS departments to tell us what we should switch over to teaching. Those first two titles sound reasonable. The third sounds strangely touchy-feely rather than like an engineering course. > ... > They declared, "Nobody programs in Assembly language any more, nor ever will again." > ... > They had a brilliant visionary concept of CS education. I would not put it that way. "Brilliant" is a term of praise, as is "visionary". Someone who claims that "nobody programs in assembly language any more nor will ever again" does not merit those adjectives. The correct adjectives would be "ignorant" and "myopic". Those are the correct terms because their assertion is valid only if you limit yourself to a limited class of programmers, and ignore compiler writers, diagnostics programmers, BIOS engineers, bootloader programmers, or embedded systems developers, just to name a few. I'm surprised that such people would be working at a supposedly highly regarded outfit like Berkeley. paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 27 14:37:16 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:37:16 -0500 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> Message-ID: <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> Drlegendre wrote... ----- And BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to Perl or Python ASAP. ----- I suggest instead... "BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to assembly language ASAP." *grin* I'm only 10% kidding lol J From mtapley at swri.edu Fri May 27 14:37:44 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 19:37:44 +0000 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> Message-ID: Ali, generating interest in the topic is probably the single most critical step you will take. That is where I?ve had the most trouble, and from your first paragraph, sounds like that is your first stumbling block, too. Here are things that might help: 1) Provide him with problems (lots of them!) in other areas that the PC-XT / basic combo can solve for him. Give him math homework with iterative solutions, ask him to calculate the value of pi or find the first 500 pythagorean triplets, or something like that. Then help him through solving those problems, and pose him more problems to solve himself. This will take a lot of time on your part. 2) Demonstrate that *you* are interested in it - play nim or trek or hammrbi for a couple of hours, or write your own computer game on it, with him watching over your shoulder. Let him help, Make sure that the interaction between you and him is the primary goal, and BASIC and the computer are secondary, while you do this. He is hard-wired to resist the idea of you foisting him off on a machine and then walking away while he ?learns? - in relational terms, that will feel like a punishment to him. On the other hand, if the computer and the lessons form environments that establish better connection between you and him, he will like it. My 2 cents worth, and please note I was not successful at following the above advice myself. My kids got ?exposed? to a bunch of this, never really clicked on it, and only now (away in college) are beginning to get interested. They are sailing through their CS courses because they keep tripping across nuggets that they immediately ?get? (having had me bore them to tears about it in past ages) while their classmates struggle - but that?s not the goal you were looking for. Good luck! - Mark On May 27, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Ali wrote: > So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say he > is less than impressed is understating things :). However, I am determined > that he will learn basic computer terminology, architecture, history (i.e. > how we got here) and at least get his feet wet with programming by learning > BASIC this summer. > > Apparently teaching is not my strong suite - while I can talk about a larger > number of the above topics, especially at his level, organizing them in a > way to make sense is the problem. I was wondering if anyone could recommend > a good book that gets the basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU, > memory, storage, etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and maybe > another one that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young reader? > It would be nice if the book is in the PD or at least available as a PDF > that way he can read it on his Kindle. However, I am not averse to buying a > physical new (or used book) either. > > Thanks. > > -Ali > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 27 14:42:53 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 12:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: from "drlegendre ." at "May 27, 16 01:36:48 pm" Message-ID: <201605271942.u4RJgrDi5898386@floodgap.com> > And BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to > Perl or Python ASAP. Basic -> Perl is very easy, heck you can even use line > numbers if you want.. I don't claim to be Larry Wall himself (having had lunch with him a number of times, he has too many dietary restrictions), but this is news to me. How do you figure? % cat > perl.test print "hello\n"; % perl perl.test hello % cat > perl.test 10 print"hello\n"; % perl perl.test syntax error at perl.test line 1, near "10 print" Execution of perl.test aborted due to compilation errors. % cat > perl.test 10: print"hello\n"; % perl perl.test syntax error at perl.test line 1, near "10:" Execution of perl.test aborted due to compilation errors. % perl -v This is perl, v5.8.8 built for aix-thread-multi [...] -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Obscenity is the last refuge of a weak mind. -- Bonnie Fortney ------------- From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 27 14:44:29 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:44:29 +0100 Subject: Seeking Sanyo CRT-70 RGB monitor in the US Message-ID: Folks, I've been contacted by someone wanting to recreate these monitors and is wanting to buy mine but I can't sell it since it's the only one I've got and apropos of nothing shipping a glass tube across the pond without expensive packing/dismantling isn't really an option. He claims mine is the only one he's seen in 5 years of searching, are they really that rare? This is mine, matching its MBC-555 PC nicely: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Sanyo_MBC555.jpg Speaking to him tonight he really only wants to borrow one for taking a casting of the front bezel so has anyone over there got one to lend/rent to him? I think he's in CA but will check if necessary. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mtapley at swri.edu Fri May 27 14:46:51 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 19:46:51 +0000 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <67E5FBA7-E48C-46BD-BDC6-0D2E020A9E4F@swri.edu> On May 27, 2016, at 2:37 PM, Jay West wrote: > Drlegendre wrote... > ----- > And BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to Perl or Python ASAP. > ----- > > I suggest instead... > "BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to assembly language ASAP." > > *grin* > I'm only 10% kidding lol Ew - apologies, been top-posting all day to my other email correspondents, please stand on your head while you read my last post ;-). Jay has a great point. With PC-XT class hardware, he will want to do things faster. If some of your tasks for him are suitable for short assebly language programs, and he can make them happen 100 times faster than in BASIC, that might grab his attention. Of course, rather than expose him to 8088 assembler, I?d recommend you run right out and grab a used TRS-80 Color Computer - cheap, and 6809 assembly is very very nice - no segment registers. The downside of *that* is that if he ever decides to use the ?Sign Extend? instruction, you?ll have to have a talk with him about the birds, the bees, and where little subroutines come from :-). - Mark From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 27 14:52:29 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 12:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <066901d1b839$31c2ed40$9548c7c0$@gmail.com> from Dave G4UGM at "May 27, 16 05:59:55 pm" Message-ID: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> > For some reason Windows computers in Hospital seem especially prone to viral > infections. When I left full-time IT work at the university in 1999, at that time the wacky network admin used an NT 4 desktop because it was (in his opinion) the best Windows money could buy and he wouldn't deign to use 98 like the rest of us hoi polloi. Recall that Windows 2000 wasn't RTM until December of that year. (I was already notorious for refusing to switch to Microsoft Outlook; I read my mail on-spool, as God intended, over a terminal window.) Fast-forward to fall 2003, when I was now a starving medical intern and had my ob/gyn rotation at the county hospital. The fetal monitoring system on every bed in the delivery suite was NT 3.51. I could tell at a glance it had not been updated since the day it was installed. I pretended not to notice. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Backup not found. Abort, Retry, Vomit, Panic, Write Resume File? ----------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 27 14:54:08 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 19:54:08 +0000 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org>, <67E5FBA7-E48C-46BD-BDC6-0D2E020A9E4F@swri.edu>, Message-ID: > Of course, rather than expose him to 8088 assembler, I?d recommend > you run right out and grab a used TRS-80 Color Computer - cheap, > and 6809 assembly is very very nice - no segment registers. > The downside of *that* is that if he ever decides to use the ?Sign Extend? > instruction, you?ll have to have a talk with him about the birds, the bees, > and where little subroutines come from :-). I suspect you'll need some 'support' when you come to unconditional relative branches too :-) -tony From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 15:01:16 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:01:16 -0600 (MDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <42CEAE0F-2CDF-442D-9C89-227808284FD1@shiresoft.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <005101d1b76f$2b9171a0$82b454e0$@classiccmp.org> <03288B8E-218C-4EB5-81D3-179262BB5304@shiresoft.com> <42CEAE0F-2CDF-442D-9C89-227808284FD1@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > I was at IBM from 1979 through 1997. Started in Boca Raton and finished > up in Austin. It was the Boulder site the whole time for me. Used to be a printer and tape drive manufacturing site. Then they converted the manufacturing floors to hosted data centers for Global Services by and large. > There was a lot of politics going on the entire time I was there. Nothing changed when I was there. It was the second-most political place I've ever worked in. The only reason I've seen worse is that I've lived through a couple of apocalyptic H1B wipe-outs in large companies. I wasn't around for the bulk of IBM's offshoring. You wanna see some depressed computing experts, tell them: 1. You are fired. 2. You can stay around for time-and-a-half plus a modest bonus if you train your barely-speaks-english-and-is-here-illegally B1 or B2 visa holder. They uhm, *might* get H1B visas later, but for now we'll just thumb our nose at the law. We are fat cat corporations with lawyers. We don't have to care. You won't either, since you won't be here but for another 60-90 days. (lived through two of those, watched people cry a lot at work, have nervous breakdowns, develop stress-related issues they'd never had, etc... no fun) 3. Okay... now you are fired. BTW, the jobs are "going to India" but staying right, here. We know that just adds insult to injury but what are you going to do, get *our* pet congressperson / senator to help you? Buwuhahahah. We gave them $3,000,000 bucks last year. You gave them $25. Good luck. BTW, we really value you as an employee and appreciate your contribution. Kthxbye. > were considered the ?stars? of the division) would be better applied to > OS/2 (we cancelled SW that customers had already paid for). I don?t > think any of us who were ?drafted? into OS/2 stayed more than a year > after that. Sounds pretty typical. Customers were never #1. When I was there, the worst I saw them: 1. Pirate/steal huge amounts of software from other vendors and use it in their hosted environments. I had to tell my boss point blank: "I'm not your felony pirate boy." on more than one occasion. 2. Fire people who found security problems. I watched a couple genius-level guys who were just young-and-curious get whacked this way. 3. Hire managers who were barely *literate* much less competent. My manager once asked me as he was banging away on a Lotus Notes document "What is the difference between y-o-u-apostrophe-r-e [you're] and your?" Seriously. -Swift From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 27 15:02:07 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 13:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: from Swift Griggs at "May 27, 16 09:11:26 am" Message-ID: <201605272002.u4RK27an46465960@floodgap.com> > > Assembler on a Series/1 is a problem as it's a closed system. Can't be > > run under emulation. No modern replacements available. > > You make some excellent points about the hardware and the difficulty of > emulation et al. When it comes to firing nuclear weapons, personally I'd > like to see computers *removed* from the equation as much as is practical. You know, they made a movie about that. "Sir, I've come to the conclusion that your new defense system sucks." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 27 15:03:28 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:03:28 -0500 Subject: WTB VAX 8650, 8600, or 6340 Message-ID: <000d01d1b852$d600f0f0$8202d2d0$@classiccmp.org> I always get emails from people wanting to know where to get rid of old vintage computers. I don't think I've ever gotten an email from someone wanting to buy one. But. Just got an email from someone that wants to buy a VAX 8650, 8600, or 6340. Given that the email address is from "Northrop Grumman" I'm guessing it could be a commercial purchase. If someone has a good condition working VAX that is one of those three models and wants to part with it, email me off-list and I'll pass along the contact info and you can work a deal with them. Best, J From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 27 15:07:49 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 13:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASM, Clancy & Harvey, and Agile (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: ["Demystification"] > Those first two titles sound reasonable. The third sounds strangely > touchy-feely rather than like an engineering course. A touchy-feely nickname applied by those who personally wouldn't have anything to do with it. >> They had a brilliant visionary concept of CS education. > I would not put it that way. "Brilliant" is a term of praise, as is > "visionary". "insane"? "out of touch with reality"? sarcasm is always risky here. They tried to change the entire paradigm of beginning CS education into their image. > I'm surprised that such people would be working at a supposedly highly > regarded outfit like Berkeley. an infra structure that may promote such, or may put "out of the way" in something uncared about, such as undergraduate lower-division. To be fair, I haven't heard anything from them in decades, so I have no idea how successful they were, nor whether their goals have changed. UC for awhile accepted our "Data Structures And Algorithms" class and our "Advanced Microcomputer Programming" for transfer as a substitute for their "Demystification" course, but then suddenly dropped them with a stated reason of "The CATALOG description of them does not mention interrupt handlers". (no, their catalog is also not a complete list of course content) Later, for a few years, they accepted my "Microcomputer Assembly Language" and my "Computer Math" as substitutes for other reasonably irrelevant courses. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 15:15:57 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:15:57 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Jay West wrote: > I suggest instead... "BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the > concepts, move him to assembly language ASAP." I learned a language called "Logo" first. It was taught by volunteer instructors at a local community center. I was 7, and the minimum age was supposed to be 10, but they let me in anyway. I enjoyed it. It came with a few media functions that made programming more fun since it was pretty easy to make music or games. Plus it was a little less sphghettish than BASIC. There are tons of Logo interpreters and books for kids. I get the feeling it's geared exactly toward teaching children. Everyone loved the turtle. > I'm only 10% kidding lol I learned ASM as a kid (I've never become that great at it, but I get by). As a child, I had so few people around who knew anything about computers, nobody was there to say "that's too hard". I had a book that came with a timex 1500 my mom got at a garage sale. I just picked it up and started doing examples. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 15:23:18 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:23:18 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > (I was already notorious for refusing to switch to Microsoft Outlook; I > read my mail on-spool, as God intended, over a terminal window.) Damn straight! Check my mail headers and you'll find Alpine :-) > Fast-forward to fall 2003, when I was now a starving medical intern and > had my ob/gyn rotation at the county hospital. Congrats on getting through med school and making it happen, at least. > The fetal monitoring system on every bed in the delivery suite was NT > 3.51. I could tell at a glance it had not been updated since the day it > was installed. I pretended not to notice. It makes me wonder how many patients have had to wait on care or didn't get proper care because of an IT screwup related to Windows. I have to say just _seeing_ Windows on machines in the ER made me livid. I found it breathtaking they were that caviler about getting people checked in, keeping records straight, etc... I guess I shouldn't have visited the sausage factory, so to speak... Then again, folks in hospitals probably should be more concerned with patients than with their IT tools. Ugh. Still. Windows? I'd have felt better about paper forms. At least they don't blue screen. -Swift From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 27 15:36:27 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 13:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASM, Clancy & Harvey, and Agile (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > Oh, I see what's going on. See, this is the "cctalk" (Classic Computing > Talk) mailing list. I think what you're meaning to send this to is the > "ccctalk" (Cranky C Curmudgeons Talk) mailing list. Could we maybe talk > about classic computing rather than go on endlessly about the lazy kids > these days with their saggy pants and their terrible loud programming > languages? Ah, but the Crazy Cranky C Curmudgeons Classic Computer Talk list is a subset of cctalk. But, there was a big crash a while back, and separation of the lists hasn't been completely successful. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 27 15:43:37 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 13:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Drlegendre wrote... > ----- > And BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid > grasps the concepts, move him to Perl or Python ASAP. > ----- On Fri, 27 May 2016, Jay West wrote: > I suggest instead... > "BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to assembly language ASAP." > *grin* > I'm only 10% kidding lol I agree with either. and APL is fun! Have you considered David Lien's book? One version of it came bundled with the TRS80. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 27 15:55:06 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 21:55:06 +0100 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <014501d1b85a$0cc9bc50$265d34f0$@gmail.com> > > It makes me wonder how many patients have had to wait on care or didn't get > proper care because of an IT screwup related to Windows. I have to say just > _seeing_ Windows on machines in the ER made me livid. I found it breathtaking > they were that caviler about getting people checked in, keeping records > straight, etc... I guess I shouldn't have visited the sausage factory, so to speak... > What would you expect. Properly maintained, managed enterprise and locked down Windows/7 is solid and reliable. In the UK it is hard to use Linux in the "Public Sector" and in the UK most Hospitals are Public Sector. You can use Linux BUT you must have a support contract in place and run a supported distro. Having costed this it brings the price up way beyond that of a Windows desktop. > Then again, folks in hospitals probably should be more concerned with patients > than with their IT tools. Ugh. Still. Windows? I'd have felt better about paper > forms. At least they don't blue screen. I can't remember getting a blue screen on Windows/7. I used to run a 200 server windows infrastructure. It all down to how you manage it. Our Linux appliances were the most unreliable servers BECAUSE we did not know How to manage them. > > -Swift Dave G4UGM From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 27 15:57:20 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 21:57:20 +0100 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <014601d1b85a$5cc1b0a0$164511e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 27 May 2016 21:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight > year old level > > > Drlegendre wrote... > > ----- > > And BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move > > him to Perl or Python ASAP. > > ----- > > On Fri, 27 May 2016, Jay West wrote: > > I suggest instead... > > "BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to > assembly language ASAP." > > *grin* > > I'm only 10% kidding lol > > I agree with either. > > and APL is fun! Those who write APL programs ae sadists, and those who like fixing them when they go wrong are masochists.... ... Though I believe Iverson wanted to call it "The Programming Language".... ... > > > Have you considered David Lien's book? > One version of it came bundled with the TRS80. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 27 15:58:20 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:58:20 -0500 Subject: Omen Technologies Message-ID: <003a01d1b85a$800c6b40$802541c0$@classiccmp.org> I don't know if anyone else has been working this, but at least I have been following up occasionally with the Omen Technologies owner. Current status (as of yesterday), she is selling the domain name and looking for "big bucks", which I suspect "omen.com" will probably fetch. She wants that done first, to make sure that the domain passes hands completely unencumbered with regards to any other Omen Tech stuff (IP, licenses, etc.). Once that happens, then she'll look to work on the machine holding the docs/software that were public facing (it also houses personal/private info that needs to remain so). That machine has hardware issues and many passwords are not known. However, it won't be touched until the domain sells. After that. work will begin. Just thought some folks might want to know status.. Best, J From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 16:04:53 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:04:53 -0600 (MDT) Subject: ASM, Clancy & Harvey, and Agile (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57472CFB.9060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > Ah, but the Crazy Cranky C Curmudgeons Classic Computer Talk list is a > subset of cctalk. But, there was a big crash a while back, and > separation of the lists hasn't been completely successful. Yes, quite correct and the tagline for the list is: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" I'm going to call discussions of the relative merits of C coding "general discussion" and we'll say the curmudgeon bits are "off topic" if you like. It still seems to fit the list quite nicely. Also, to be fair: 1. Some of that discussion spawns other threads about classic hardware. Observe folks talking about hardware memory tagging features in classic systems to aid with GC and other items of discussion. 2. Programming and computers are a bit hard to separate. Classic computers had classic languages, too. Witness the discussions on BLISS, BCPL, and older implementations of FORTRAN and COBOL that runs on classic machines. My point is that it's not really all that off-topic. curmudgeon (noun): a bad-tempered or surly person. Wouldn't complaining that people are going off the rails qualify as surly? Just sayin' :-) -Swift From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 27 16:04:35 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <014501d1b85a$0cc9bc50$265d34f0$@gmail.com> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <014501d1b85a$0cc9bc50$265d34f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: In the ER, they handed me a tiny tablet (2" x 6"?) and asked me to sign my name. "Why?" "So that we can paste your signature into all of the documents. Would you like a copy of the papers that we sign your name to?" After that, Windows seems perfectly suited. > What would you expect. Properly maintained, managed enterprise and locked > down Windows/7 is solid and reliable. Until it does an unauthorized "upgrade" to Windoze10. Turned on the machine one morning, and it told me to wait for updates to be configured. Fortunately, it does save the files for changing it back. The more that I use Windows 7, the less that I dislike it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 16:04:50 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:04:50 -0700 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> > It makes me wonder how many patients have had to wait on care or didn't > get proper care because of an IT screwup related to Windows. I have to > say just _seeing_ Windows on machines in the ER made me livid. I found > it breathtaking they were that caviler about getting people checked in, > keeping records straight, etc... I guess I shouldn't have visited the > sausage factory, so to speak... > > Then again, folks in hospitals probably should be more concerned with > patients than with their IT tools. Ugh. Still. Windows? I'd have felt > better about paper forms. At least they don't blue screen. I would say very few. You have to remember critical systems are not running a general windows system i.e. people are not surfing the web on them and installing the latest games recommended by friends from facebook. Windows on its own is very stable. I.E. if you take a clean install of windows SW on recommended HW and just use the built in apps and never go on the internet it will run without any issues. Medical HW makers are basically using recommended HW, building one application on top of the OS, and test the hell out of it. Since they limit the HW, SW, and modality of use it runs stable. Almost all (maybe 80%) of your medical HW is probably running some flavor of windows. Pyxis/Omnicell: Windows CE Sonosite: Windows 2K or XP EMRs: Windows XP or 7 (usually virtualized through Citrix). Heck DOS is still around too! The more specialized equipment (fluoro machines, MRI/CT, etc.) usually have their own OS although I am seeing C-Arms w/ windows back bones now a days as well. As the focus is going toward cost saving more and more generalized HW/SW is being used. After all why re-invent everything for each device when you can use windows to run the HW, network, input, etc. and just have the medical device (e.g. ultrasound probe) act like a peripheral with its own drivers. Where windows causes an issue for the hospital is in the general business areas (HR, accounting, administration, etc.). -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 27 16:09:37 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <014601d1b85a$5cc1b0a0$164511e0$@gmail.com> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> <014601d1b85a$5cc1b0a0$164511e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> and APL is fun! On Fri, 27 May 2016, Dave Wade wrote: > Those who write APL programs ae sadists, IFF they make anybody else look at them. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 16:17:36 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:17:36 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <014501d1b85a$0cc9bc50$265d34f0$@gmail.com> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <014501d1b85a$0cc9bc50$265d34f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Dave Wade wrote: > What would you expect. Properly maintained, managed enterprise and > locked down Windows/7 is solid and reliable. My ER experience was back in the Windows XP days. I have noticed 7 seems pretty stable if you can keep M$ from tricking you into upgrading to Windows 10. http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2016/05/23/windows-10-dirty-trick-hits-windows-7-and-windows-8-users/ > In the UK it is hard to use Linux in the "Public Sector" and in the UK > most Hospitals are Public Sector. Hmm, well you do make a good point. I'm not sure Linux would give better results, but it certainly has a better reputation for stability and that's been mirrored in my experiences, also. However, to be honest what I'd be most impressed by seeing would be either thin clients running Windows CE or (even better) modern terminals connected back to a redundant-as-all-heck mainframe or overbuilt server (think high end HP DL boxes) in a fully clustered or redundant system. People might complain that the only thing they can do on the terminals is their job, but uhm, isn't that why they are there? > You can use Linux BUT you must have a support contract in place and run > a supported distro. Having costed this it brings the price up way beyond > that of a Windows desktop. Hmm, that's not my experience, but I'm not a sales guy. IIRC, the last time I saw Windows Server and RHEL pricing compared side by side, it was either close in many cases or quite a bit cheaper on the RHEL side. I'm not a RHEL shill by any stretch, but just sharing what I've seen. Maybe you mean desktop machines? That could make sense, I suppose. > I can't remember getting a blue screen on Windows/7. I used to run a 200 > server windows infrastructure. It all down to how you manage it. Well, let me focus on that last sentence. I really couldn't agree more on that. I'm sure one could take something like OS/2 and, even though it's completely out of support, you could easily make it work if you put the right plans in place (spares, 3rd party support, adequate staff with good shift coverage and high morale). It's really hard to overstate how important those "other" things are, versus just the choice of OS. > Our Linux appliances were the most unreliable servers BECAUSE we did not > know How to manage them. It's a good point. I don't doubt you. -Swift From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 27 16:17:53 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 16:17:53 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <297758A7-3E2B-49DD-B726-7C1B8C986042@comcast.net> References: <20160526215312.D6BD318C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <297758A7-3E2B-49DD-B726-7C1B8C986042@comcast.net> Message-ID: <004f01d1b85d$3b802c20$b2808460$@classiccmp.org> Ian wrote.... ----- When I suggested modernizing, I was told that changing the hardware would require *re-certifying the entire workflow*. In other words, it was far more economical to maintain a 70's era computer than spec, design, acquire/build and certify a new system. ----- Then Gene wrote... ----- Considering how military avionics systems work, this is entirely plausible. ----- Then Paul wrote... ----- Not only plausible but reasonable. ----- I can confirm first hand that it is not just plausible or reasonable - but factual. On occasion I have sold or repaired HP 1000 stuff for DOD branches and/or contractors. A time or two I discussed emulators or some type of modern replacements, asking why those weren't considered. They flat out said exactly what Ian said above: "When you're dealing with {insert name of lethal weaponry}, control systems must be known to function identically in every conceivable case and that certification process is exceedingly expensive". Usually followed by "we'll do it, after no more boards or repairs are to be had - but at that point those {weapon} systems may not be around anymore." Best, J From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 27 16:21:38 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:21:38 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <014601d1b85a$5cc1b0a0$164511e0$@gmail.com> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> <014601d1b85a$5cc1b0a0$164511e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A75D5AC-E864-49B4-9BB2-F49AC2A550D0@orthanc.ca> > On May 27, 2016, at 1:57 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > Those who write APL programs ae sadists, and those who like fixing them when > they go wrong are masochists.... > ... Though I believe Iverson wanted to call it "The Programming > Language".... I was going to suggest he introduce the lad to a wide range of languages, especially non-procedural ones, and outliers such as Forth and APL. It's much easier to grasp the concepts (and joy) of things like functional programming if you're exposed to them before confirmation bias limits your acceptance of the world. From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 27 16:23:46 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:23:46 -0700 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> Message-ID: <0AAE63BE-B7B9-4D8D-8AFD-76345077F00D@orthanc.ca> > On May 27, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Ali wrote: > > I would say very few. You have to remember critical systems are not running > a general windows system i.e. people are not surfing the web on them and > installing the latest games recommended by friends from facebook. Windows on > its own is very stable. And nobody - *ever* - plugs a USB stick into them. Or puts them on a LAN with machines that people shove USB sticks into. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 16:31:28 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:31:28 -0700 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <0AAE63BE-B7B9-4D8D-8AFD-76345077F00D@orthanc.ca> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> <0AAE63BE-B7B9-4D8D-8AFD-76345077F00D@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <004301d1b85f$21f6ee90$65e4cbb0$@net> > And nobody - *ever* - plugs a USB stick into them. Or puts them on a > LAN with machines that people shove USB sticks into. No they don't because they don't have LAN ports or USB ports - at least not one's easily accessible by RNs/MDs/etc. They are single purpose machines that are locked down very well and they are being used by people who are not interested in getting them to do things they are not designed for. Again, I have not seen a blue screen on a critical piece of equipment in 14 years. Walking by the RN station and looking at the computers they use to chart - well that is a different story. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 16:31:28 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 14:31:28 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <045601d1b843$415bcd30$c4136790$@com> Message-ID: <004401d1b85f$222a3390$667e9ab0$@net> > I learned BASIC around that age. I used the Usborne book, which has > been made available as a PDF file by the publisher: > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxv0SsvibDMTUXdYTnRaTy1LLVE/view Thanks for the linkage. That looks exactly like something I am looking for. The 80s graphics are a bit outdated but still colorful enough to hold attention (I hope). -Ali From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 27 16:33:07 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 22:33:07 +0100 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <014501d1b85a$0cc9bc50$265d34f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015301d1b85f$5c4ae0b0$14e0a210$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 27 May 2016 22:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active > use) > > In the ER, they handed me a tiny tablet (2" x 6"?) and asked me to sign my > name. > "Why?" > "So that we can paste your signature into all of the documents. Would you like > a copy of the papers that we sign your name to?" > > After that, Windows seems perfectly suited. > > > What would you expect. Properly maintained, managed enterprise and > > locked down Windows/7 is solid and reliable. > > Until it does an unauthorized "upgrade" to Windoze10. > On an Active Directory domain, such as most corporate users have, it doesn't quite work like that, and automatic updates to Windows/10 don't happen... > Turned on the machine one morning, and it told me to wait for updates to > be configured. Fortunately, it does save the files for changing it back. > If you wait till its activated and then roll back , you can re-install at a later date if you so desire. > > The more that I use Windows 7, the less that I dislike it. > > I like Windows/7, always have. I am running the rolling Window/10 previews on this, so it updates frequently, Its like the weather in Manchester (UK). If I don't like what it is doing today a new build will be along soon and it will behave differently... > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Dave G4UGM From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri May 27 16:37:36 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 22:37:36 +0100 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> Message-ID: <139ed825-b768-2803-1fe2-0bc3136f373c@btinternet.com> On 27/05/2016 22:04, Ali wrote: > >> It makes me wonder how many patients have had to wait on care or didn't >> get proper care because of an IT screwup related to Windows. I have to >> say just _seeing_ Windows on machines in the ER made me livid. I found >> it breathtaking they were that caviler about getting people checked in, >> keeping records straight, etc... I guess I shouldn't have visited the >> sausage factory, so to speak... >> >> Then again, folks in hospitals probably should be more concerned with >> patients than with their IT tools. Ugh. Still. Windows? I'd have felt >> better about paper forms. At least they don't blue screen. > > I would say very few. You have to remember critical systems are not running > a general windows system i.e. people are not surfing the web on them and > installing the latest games recommended by friends from facebook. Windows on > its own is very stable. I.E. if you take a clean install of windows SW on > recommended HW and just use the built in apps and never go on the internet > it will run without any issues. Medical HW makers are basically using > recommended HW, building one application on top of the OS, and test the hell > out of it. Since they limit the HW, SW, and modality of use it runs stable. > > Almost all (maybe 80%) of your medical HW is probably running some flavor of > windows. > > Pyxis/Omnicell: Windows CE > Sonosite: Windows 2K or XP > EMRs: Windows XP or 7 (usually virtualized through Citrix). > > Heck DOS is still around too! > > The more specialized equipment (fluoro machines, MRI/CT, etc.) usually have > their own OS although I am seeing C-Arms w/ windows back bones now a days as > well. As the focus is going toward cost saving more and more generalized > HW/SW is being used. After all why re-invent everything for each device when > you can use windows to run the HW, network, input, etc. and just have the > medical device (e.g. ultrasound probe) act like a peripheral with its own > drivers. > > Where windows causes an issue for the hospital is in the general business > areas (HR, accounting, administration, etc.). > > -Ali > Please can we have some specific instances of Windows causing problems. Not unqualified people at home or students but real production environments with qualified support on hand. I used every version of windows from 1 to 10. yes XP and millennium too I wrote time and mission critical food distribution related software for the ten years before I retired in vb and then vb.net (oo) I would have seen just about every possible bug in windows and in developing applications under it. Lets hear what others experienced. Rod From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri May 27 16:48:28 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 22:48:28 +0100 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <004f01d1b85d$3b802c20$b2808460$@classiccmp.org> References: <20160526215312.D6BD318C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <297758A7-3E2B-49DD-B726-7C1B8C986042@comcast.net> <004f01d1b85d$3b802c20$b2808460$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 27/05/2016 22:17, Jay West wrote: > Ian wrote.... > ----- > When I suggested modernizing, I was told that changing the hardware would > require *re-certifying the entire workflow*. In other words, it was far > more economical to maintain a 70's era computer than spec, design, > acquire/build and certify a new system. > ----- > > Then Gene wrote... > ----- > Considering how military avionics systems work, this is entirely plausible. > ----- > > Then Paul wrote... > ----- > Not only plausible but reasonable. > ----- > > I can confirm first hand that it is not just plausible or reasonable - but > factual. On occasion I have sold or repaired HP 1000 stuff for DOD branches > and/or contractors. A time or two I discussed emulators or some type of > modern replacements, asking why those weren't considered. They flat out said > exactly what Ian said above: "When you're dealing with {insert name of > lethal weaponry}, control systems must be known to function identically in > every conceivable case and that certification process is exceedingly > expensive". Usually followed by "we'll do it, after no more boards or > repairs are to be had - but at that point those {weapon} systems may not be > around anymore." > > Best, > > J > > > Its a great cover story. Our weapons are so out of date we have to use computer systems of a similar age to look after them. R From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 27 16:49:07 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:49:07 -0600 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 5/27/2016 2:15 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > I learned ASM as a kid (I've never become that great at it, but I get by). > As a child, I had so few people around who knew anything about computers, > nobody was there to say "that's too hard". I had a book that came with a > timex 1500 my mom got at a garage sale. I just picked it up and started > doing examples. > > -Swift > But back then you could find the BARE hardware... with the latest chips how do your get there? Ben. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 27 16:52:31 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 16:52:31 -0500 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <004401d1b85f$222a3390$667e9ab0$@net> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <045601d1b843$415bcd30$c4136790$@com> <004401d1b85f$222a3390$667e9ab0$@net> Message-ID: <005401d1b862$122fe6d0$368fb470$@classiccmp.org> At the risk of being flamed... I'll mention that if the kid is more visually driven, you might try introducing him to an Arduino Uno or similar. Something he can see the results of his code in lights and dials. J From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 17:04:07 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:04:07 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> Message-ID: <004501d1b863$b14cf9a0$13e6ece0$@net> Mark, Tell me about it. In the age of streaming and instant gratification nobody wants to work to get anything anymore. I can't really blame him either: why would you want to run "Hello World" when you can touch your iPad and be playing Minecraft before the 5151 monitor has even warmed up to show you the memory counter :) > 1) Provide him with problems (lots of them!) in other areas that the > PC-XT / basic combo can solve for him. Give him math homework with > iterative solutions, ask him to calculate the value of pi or find the > first 500 pythagorean triplets, or something like that. Then help him > through solving those problems, and pose him more problems to solve > himself. This will take a lot of time on your part. I agree with giving him problems - but he is eight and has no idea what "pi" is (outside of something you eat) much less how to calculate it. I am thinking giving him simple problems and more importantly tools to entertain himself. If he can write simple programs that he can show off to friends that will keep him interested. Of course I have a feeling I will see a lot of: 10 print "What is your name?" 15 input N$ 20 print N$ "made a stinky fart" 30 goto 20 > > 2) Demonstrate that *you* are interested in it - play nim or trek or > hammrbi for a couple of hours, or write your own computer game on it, > with him watching over your shoulder. Let him help I agree that this is key! I want it to be an interactive experience and not another electronic distraction ala PS3/iPad/etc. He is actually still interested in some of the older games even though the graphics are not fancy. So there is still hope that he can be kept from all the distracting fancy graphics and focus on the meat of the problem. I think once he gets a bit of success running things then he may want to pick up on it himself. Right now the biggest hurdle is going from an iPad which is very intuitive to DOS which his very intimidating so he is put off. > My 2 cents worth, and please note I was not successful at > following the above advice myself. My kids got "exposed" to a bunch of > this, never really clicked on it, and only now (away in college) are > beginning to get interested. They are sailing through their CS courses > because they keep tripping across nuggets that they immediately "get" > (having had me bore them to tears about it in past ages) while their > classmates struggle - but that's not the goal you were looking for. Well you must have done something right for the information to stick and help them now! Kudos to you for that! -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 17:04:07 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:04:07 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <005401d1b862$122fe6d0$368fb470$@classiccmp.org> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <045601d1b843$415bcd30$c4136790$@com> <004401d1b85f$222a3390$667e9ab0$@net> <005401d1b862$122fe6d0$368fb470$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004601d1b863$b17baac0$14730040$@net> > At the risk of being flamed... I'll mention that if the kid is more > visually driven, you might try introducing him to an Arduino Uno or > similar. Something he can see the results of his code in lights and > dials. > Jay, Baby steps - first I got to show him what a chip looks like then we can talk about stringing HW together! ;) -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 17:04:07 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:04:07 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004701d1b863$b1ac0990$15041cb0$@net> > Have you considered David Lien's book? > One version of it came bundled with the TRS80. Fred, I am not familiar with his book. I will look around and see f I can find a used copy on the usual sites. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 17:04:07 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:04:07 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004801d1b863$b1da1e70$158e5b50$@net> > I learned a language called "Logo" first. It was taught by volunteer > instructors at a local community center. I was 7, and the minimum age > was supposed to be 10, but they let me in anyway. I enjoyed it. It came > with a few media functions that made programming more fun since it was > pretty easy to make music or games. Plus it was a little less > sphghettish than BASIC. There are tons of Logo interpreters and books > for kids. I get the feeling it's geared exactly toward teaching > children. Everyone loved the turtle. I believe you are right and I think Logo used to be taught in schools. Unfortunately, I never learned Logo myself. I do have a copy of the IBM Logo around here somewhere. I think thought Logo might be a bit too simple. Unfortunately, time is something that is a precious commodity and as others have pointed out there are far more useful languages for him to learn (in fact his school has a coding class that teaches some more modern languages - I don't think they even have a BASIC lab like we did back in the 80s/90s.) So as cool as it would be for him to know Logo and other older languages I want to expose him to simple programming and if he shows interest he can move on to more useful stuff. > I learned ASM as a kid (I've never become that great at it, but I get > by). > As a child, I had so few people around who knew anything about > computers, nobody was there to say "that's too hard". I had a book that > came with a timex 1500 my mom got at a garage sale. I just picked it up > and started doing examples. Yeah, kids these days, as a general rule, are not that interested. There is too much instant gratification for them to bother coding 10-20 pages worth of code (like you used to find in magazines) to get a program to run. That being said I would love for him to at least understand the building blocks (binary vs. decimal, notations, etc.) -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 17:04:07 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:04:07 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> Message-ID: <004901d1b863$b204ff00$160efd00$@net> > Most of the Usborne books from the 80s are available on Usborne's web > site as PDFs -- "Simple BASIC" (for younger readers) or "Introduction > to Computer Programming" (for slightly older readers) might fit the > bill: > > http://www.usborne.com/catalogue/feature-page/computer-and-coding- > books.aspx Thanks for that link. That one is getting bookmarked! I can even use some of that info ;) -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 17:04:07 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:04:07 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> Message-ID: <004a01d1b863$b244ee30$16ceca90$@net> > I can suggest "Instant BASIC: Freeze-dried Computer Programming: Jerald > R. > Brown" as a good kids entry-level text. Like numerous other 1980s era > DIY computer books, it's probably available for free download from > archive.org. Thanks. I will check out archive.org and see what they have as well. Just Googling around did not bring anything up. However, with people suggesting titles I can look directly for those. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 17:04:07 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:04:07 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <0A75D5AC-E864-49B4-9BB2-F49AC2A550D0@orthanc.ca> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> <014601d1b85a$5cc1b0a0$164511e0$@gmail.com> <0A75D5AC-E864-49B4-9BB2-F49AC2A550D0@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <004b01d1b863$b2759b20$1760d160$@net> > I was going to suggest he introduce the lad to a wide range of > languages, especially non-procedural ones, and outliers such as Forth > and APL. It's much easier to grasp the concepts (and joy) of things > like functional programming if you're exposed to them before > confirmation bias limits your acceptance of the world. Yes, of course that makes assumptions on my knowledge level as well.... which does not quite extend to Forth or APL. At this point my concern is more getting him interested in being more than just a consumer. He was astonished when I told him his iPad is a computer. I'd like him to understand why things work they way they do, that the cloud is not a magical thing, and that at a certain level an iPad=PC=5110=System/360. -Ali From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 17:11:28 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 16:11:28 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <139ed825-b768-2803-1fe2-0bc3136f373c@btinternet.com> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> <139ed825-b768-2803-1fe2-0bc3136f373c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Please can we have some specific instances of Windows causing problems. Windows 95 - 98 either blue screened or locked up daily, no matter what you did. In fact, IIRC, there was a timer bug that would _insure_ the system couldn't stay up for more than 49 days (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/216641). That's an eyeblink in the kind of uptimes I'm used to in the Unix world. Don't even get my started on Windows 3.x with Trumpet Winsock I could write a Ph.D thesis on stupidity with that much material. > Not unqualified people at home or students but real production > environments with qualified support on hand. I used every version of > windows from 1 to 10. yes XP and millennium too My dad used to tell me how he thought Windows was great too. He worked for a company that designed and built chemical refineries (some in the US, but mostly small plants in remote parts of the world). They had to stop using Windows in any man-machine interfaces, because: (this was XP and win2k)> 1. People in Iraq or Siberia would put games on them and of course that broke them. 2. They got tired of flying out engineers to fix issues that were windows centric, like a NIC bug that kept kicking machines off the ethernet. They moved to QNX and they absolutely love it now. At this point in the life of Windows, I can believe it's MUCH more stable than those old Win95 based DOS-predicated systems. However, being a Unix zealot, I'd refer you to the same list Mouse posted earlier about why he's not a Windows booster. I'm totally on the same page with him. It's not only the reputation for lower stability, it's all the other heinous crap M$ has pulled over the years. Trust == nonexistent. > I wrote time and mission critical food distribution related software for > the ten years before I retired in vb and then vb.net (oo) I would have > seen just about every possible bug in windows and in developing > applications under it. You are probably a good coder who knows how to tweak Windows and make it do what you need. I don't doubt that's possible. However, there are still other factors (like the ones I mentioned earlier) that can make it less desirable. Plus, there is a ton of absolutely horrible Win32, MFC, and VB code. Not that I write on those APIs, admittedly, but I've experienced plenty of the application failures that result. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 27 17:12:08 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 16:12:08 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, ben wrote: > But back then you could find the BARE hardware... with the latest chips > how do your get there? Ben. hehe, Use old hardware? I dunno. Good point. -Swift From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 27 17:15:10 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:15:10 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <005401d1b862$122fe6d0$368fb470$@classiccmp.org> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <045601d1b843$415bcd30$c4136790$@com> <004401d1b85f$222a3390$667e9ab0$@net> <005401d1b862$122fe6d0$368fb470$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8DB30491-F33A-421C-B843-705B3F3EFC61@orthanc.ca> > On May 27, 2016, at 2:52 PM, Jay West wrote: > > At the risk of being flamed... I'll mention that if the kid is more visually driven, you might try introducing him to an Arduino Uno or similar. Something he can see the results of his code in lights and dials. And ultimately, the whole purpose of the RPi was for this sort of education. There are lots of Pi-based kits out there created for this very purpose. E.g.: https://www.adafruit.com/products/955 https://www.adafruit.com/products/1538 https://www.adafruit.com/products/3058 http://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-3-ultimate-kit.html raspberrypi.org has tons of material aimed at that age group, both software and hardware hacking. For Arduino: http://www.canakit.com/arduino-professional-kit.html http://www.canakit.com/sparkfun-inventor-s-kit-for-arduino-with-retail-case.html With Arduino, you need a separate host computer to write/download the code on/from. But the Arduino kits are much more oriented towards physical interfaces, and I defy you to introduce me to an eight-year-old who doesn't want to build robots! :-) From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 27 17:17:25 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:17:25 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <004b01d1b863$b2759b20$1760d160$@net> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> <014601d1b85a$5cc1b0a0$164511e0$@gmail.com> <0A75D5AC-E864-49B4-9BB2-F49AC2A550D0@orthanc.ca> <004b01d1b863$b2759b20$1760d160$@net> Message-ID: <5F489173-6B4A-44F0-AEA2-5A0118005932@orthanc.ca> > On May 27, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Ali wrote: > > Yes, of course that makes assumptions on my knowledge level as well.... > which does not quite extend to Forth or APL. So learn with him, already! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 27 17:56:55 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 15:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <004701d1b863$b1ac0990$15041cb0$@net> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> <004701d1b863$b1ac0990$15041cb0$@net> Message-ID: >> Have you considered David Lien's book? >> One version of it came bundled with the TRS80. On Fri, 27 May 2016, Ali wrote: > I am not familiar with his book. I will look around and see f I can find a > used copy on the usual sites. https://archive.org/details/Level_1_Users_Manual_1977_David_Lien but, you might prefer some of his later more stuff, more specific to PC, etc. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 27 18:05:02 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 00:05:02 +0100 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <139ed825-b768-2803-1fe2-0bc3136f373c@btinternet.com> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> <139ed825-b768-2803-1fe2-0bc3136f373c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <016f01d1b86c$33c51db0$9b4f5910$@gmail.com> > Please can we have some specific instances of Windows causing problems. > Not unqualified people at home or students but real production environments > with qualified support on hand. > I used every version of windows from 1 to 10. yes XP and millennium too > It is susceptible to MalWare of all types. We had some XP embedded thin clients that got attacked by Confiker but of course they were clean after a re-boot but the main reason Linux and Apple isn't attacked is because there are many more window systems, although I read somewhere Apple devices were being targeted because Apple users had more cash.. I see Apple has been hit by Ransom Ware... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/07/apple-targeted-by-kerange r-ransom-malware-for-first-time I can't see why Crypto Locker could work on ANY Linux or BSD box.... > I wrote time and mission critical food distribution related software for the ten > years before I retired in vb and then vb.net (oo) I would have seen just about > every possible bug in windows and in developing applications under it. > > Lets hear what others experienced. Sorry I know I have already said but generally very reliable. Some issues where call centre staff on XP were allowed to surf the web as administrators... ... conficker was a real problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conficker > > Rod > > Dave G4UGM From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 27 18:06:33 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 19:06:33 -0400 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> Message-ID: On 2016-05-27 5:04 PM, Ali wrote: > >> It makes me wonder how many patients have had to wait on care or didn't >> get proper care because of an IT screwup related to Windows. I have to >> say just _seeing_ Windows on machines in the ER made me livid. I found >> it breathtaking they were that caviler about getting people checked in, >> keeping records straight, etc... I guess I shouldn't have visited the >> sausage factory, so to speak... >> >> Then again, folks in hospitals probably should be more concerned with >> patients than with their IT tools. Ugh. Still. Windows? I'd have felt >> better about paper forms. At least they don't blue screen. > > > I would say very few. You have to remember critical systems are not running > a general windows system i.e. people are not surfing the web on them and > installing the latest games recommended by friends from facebook. ... > > The more specialized equipment (fluoro machines, MRI/CT, etc.) usually have > their own OS although I am seeing C-Arms w/ windows back bones now a days as > well. As the focus is going toward cost saving more and more generalized > HW/SW is being used. After all why re-invent everything for each device when > you can use windows to run the HW, network, input, etc. and just have the > medical device (e.g. ultrasound probe) act like a peripheral with its own > drivers. After all, what could possibly go wrong? http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/05/faulty-av-scan-disrupts-patients-heart-procedure-when-monitor-goes-black/ > > Where windows causes an issue for the hospital is in the general business > areas (HR, accounting, administration, etc.). > > -Ali > > From mtapley at swri.edu Fri May 27 18:18:26 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 23:18:26 +0000 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <8DB30491-F33A-421C-B843-705B3F3EFC61@orthanc.ca> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <045601d1b843$415bcd30$c4136790$@com> <004401d1b85f$222a3390$667e9ab0$@net> <005401d1b862$122fe6d0$368fb470$@classiccmp.org> <8DB30491-F33A-421C-B843-705B3F3EFC61@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <5309218B-0F6B-4823-B21B-29DA4A46B6E2@swri.edu> On May 27, 2016, at 5:15 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > There are lots of Pi-based kits out there created for this very purpose. E.g.: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=20410 Points to multiple links on the ?Gertboard? accessory. That adds lots of input/output control and an Atmel controller to the Raspberry Pi. If you are going to get more (modern) hardware, I second this recommendation as well. If your 8-year-old wants to flash lights or control a robot or something, this may be pretty appealing. The Raspberry Pi can also run (and has available, for free) an early version of Minecraft and a pretty recent version of Mathematica, so it has a lot of potential ? but it has a lot of potential to get distracted from what I think you are aiming for. From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 27 18:28:07 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 16:28:07 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <5309218B-0F6B-4823-B21B-29DA4A46B6E2@swri.edu> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <045601d1b843$415bcd30$c4136790$@com> <004401d1b85f$222a3390$667e9ab0$@net> <005401d1b862$122fe6d0$368fb470$@classiccmp.org> <8DB30491-F33A-421C-B843-705B3F3EFC61@orthanc.ca> <5309218B-0F6B-4823-B21B-29DA4A46B6E2@swri.edu> Message-ID: <101A5AE1-0BBA-407F-9833-5C18B2530BBA@orthanc.ca> > On May 27, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > > but it has a lot of potential to get distracted from what I think you are aiming for. And THAT is the best part of everything. From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 27 18:30:25 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 16:30:25 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <101A5AE1-0BBA-407F-9833-5C18B2530BBA@orthanc.ca> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <045601d1b843$415bcd30$c4136790$@com> <004401d1b85f$222a3390$667e9ab0$@net> <005401d1b862$122fe6d0$368fb470$@classiccmp.org> <8DB30491-F33A-421C-B843-705B3F3EFC61@orthanc.ca> <5309218B-0F6B-4823-B21B-29DA4A46B6E2@swri.edu> <101A5AE1-0BBA-407F-9833-5C18B2530BBA@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: > On May 27, 2016, at 4:28 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > > And THAT is the best part of everything. I.e. get derailed! Lose complete track of what you set out to do. Discover the unexpected, instead. Break the kit! Make LEDs burn out. Then figure out why. That's what learning is. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 18:37:23 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 16:37:23 -0700 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> Message-ID: <005501d1b870$b8b0d6a0$2a1283e0$@net> > After all, what could possibly go wrong? > > http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/05/faulty-av-scan-disrupts- > patients-heart-procedure-when-monitor-goes-black/ To quote your article: "Based upon the available information, the cause for the reported event was due to the customer not following instructions concerning the installation of anti-virus software; therefore, there is no indication that the reported event was related to product malfunction or defect" You can hardly blame windows for the stupidity of people. This could also happen w/ discreet stupid devices - say a fluro machine. If the RN picks up the 10K/cc heparin instead of 1K/cc vial and gives you four ccs you are pretty SOL. -Ali From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri May 27 18:38:18 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 18:38:18 -0500 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <016f01d1b86c$33c51db0$9b4f5910$@gmail.com> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> <139ed825-b768-2803-1fe2-0bc3136f373c@btinternet.com> <016f01d1b86c$33c51db0$9b4f5910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: crypto locker on linux would work if someone exicuted it but then that would be a user fail like most people who get infected from going to the wrong sites and clicking crap... On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > Please can we have some specific instances of Windows causing problems. > > Not unqualified people at home or students but real production > environments > > with qualified support on hand. > > I used every version of windows from 1 to 10. yes XP and millennium too > > > > It is susceptible to MalWare of all types. We had some XP embedded thin > clients that got attacked by Confiker but of course they were clean after a > re-boot > > but the main reason Linux and Apple isn't attacked is because there are > many > more window systems, although I read somewhere Apple devices were being > targeted because Apple users had more cash.. > I see Apple has been hit by Ransom Ware... > > > https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/07/apple-targeted-by-kerange > r-ransom-malware-for-first-time > > I can't see why Crypto Locker could work on ANY Linux or BSD box.... > > > I wrote time and mission critical food distribution related software for > the ten > > years before I retired in vb and then vb.net (oo) I would have seen > just > about > > every possible bug in windows and in developing applications under it. > > > > Lets hear what others experienced. > > Sorry I know I have already said but generally very reliable. Some issues > where call centre staff on XP were allowed to surf the web as > administrators... > ... conficker was a real problem > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conficker > > > > > > > Rod > > > > > Dave > G4UGM > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 27 18:47:56 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 17:47:56 -0600 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4fae796b-6253-5e2c-e2bd-7e1e682be172@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/27/2016 4:12 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Fri, 27 May 2016, ben wrote: >> But back then you could find the BARE hardware... with the latest chips >> how do your get there? Ben. > > hehe, Use old hardware? I dunno. Good point. > > -Swift > Checks that his favorite supplier still sells 74LSXX's... Now where have all the surplus places gone, so I can get the switches and lights? Ben. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 27 19:22:52 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:22:52 -0400 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <005501d1b870$b8b0d6a0$2a1283e0$@net> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> <005501d1b870$b8b0d6a0$2a1283e0$@net> Message-ID: On 2016-05-27 7:37 PM, Ali wrote: >> After all, what could possibly go wrong? >> >> http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/05/faulty-av-scan-disrupts- >> patients-heart-procedure-when-monitor-goes-black/ > > To quote your article: > > "Based upon the available information, the cause for the reported event was due to the customer not following instructions concerning the installation of anti-virus software; therefore, there is no indication that the reported event was related to product malfunction or defect" > > You can hardly blame windows for the stupidity of people. This could also happen w/ discreet stupid devices - say a fluro machine. If the RN picks up the 10K/cc heparin instead of 1K/cc vial and gives you four ccs you are pretty SOL. > Oh, I know this resulted from *people* not thinking it through. One of the results of not thinking it through was picking Windows. --Toby > -Ali > > From davidk.collins at bigpond.com Fri May 27 19:33:30 2016 From: davidk.collins at bigpond.com (David Collins) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 10:33:30 +1000 Subject: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( In-Reply-To: <20160527124043.GA14198@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <20160521212123.GA13767@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <016201d1b3ee$49fd2410$ddf76c30$@bigpond.com> <20160522194941.GA4588@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <005201d1b5c8$26a6b040$73f410c0$@bigpond.com> <2C7AF88C-C562-4F18-878D-89C13FD3222F@bigpond.com> <20160527124043.GA14198@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <008e01d1b878$91193670$b34ba350$@bigpond.com> Great to see another HP plotter from that era is up and running again... Thanks for reaching out!! David Collins curator at hpmuseum.net -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Martin Peters Sent: Friday, 27 May 2016 10:41 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP Draftmaster II 7596A: EPROM dumps needed, urgent :-( Hi David, hi Ethan! We managed to get the plotter working again. Thanks to both of you, for your help. The newer Fireware seems to work fine, but there are still some problems with the buffer handling for our self-written software. The guy who wrote the software promised to publish it, when it's done. Greetings, Martin -- Martin Peters martin at shackspace.de From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri May 27 19:33:45 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 01:33:45 +0100 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> <139ed825-b768-2803-1fe2-0bc3136f373c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <6c824310-8cb6-ac4a-f4a7-bc558e1cdb6c@btinternet.com> On 27/05/2016 23:11, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Fri, 27 May 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Please can we have some specific instances of Windows causing problems. > Windows 95 - 98 either blue screened or locked up daily, no matter what > you did. In fact, IIRC, there was a timer bug that would _insure_ the > system couldn't stay up for more than 49 days > (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/216641). That's an eyeblink in the > kind of uptimes I'm used to in the Unix world. Don't even get my started > on Windows 3.x with Trumpet Winsock I could write a Ph.D thesis on > stupidity with that much material. > >> Not unqualified people at home or students but real production >> environments with qualified support on hand. I used every version of >> windows from 1 to 10. yes XP and millennium too > My dad used to tell me how he thought Windows was great too. He worked for > a company that designed and built chemical refineries (some in the US, but > mostly small plants in remote parts of the world). They had to stop using > Windows in any man-machine interfaces, because: > > (this was XP and win2k)> > > 1. People in Iraq or Siberia would put games on them and of course that > broke them. > > 2. They got tired of flying out engineers to fix issues that were windows > centric, like a NIC bug that kept kicking machines off the ethernet. > > They moved to QNX and they absolutely love it now. > > At this point in the life of Windows, I can believe it's MUCH more stable > than those old Win95 based DOS-predicated systems. However, being a Unix > zealot, I'd refer you to the same list Mouse posted earlier about why he's > not a Windows booster. I'm totally on the same page with him. It's not > only the reputation for lower stability, it's all the other heinous crap > M$ has pulled over the years. Trust == nonexistent. > >> I wrote time and mission critical food distribution related software for >> the ten years before I retired in vb and then vb.net (oo) I would have >> seen just about every possible bug in windows and in developing >> applications under it. > You are probably a good coder who knows how to tweak Windows and make it > do what you need. I don't doubt that's possible. However, there are still > other factors (like the ones I mentioned earlier) that can make it less > desirable. Plus, there is a ton of absolutely horrible Win32, MFC, and VB > code. Not that I write on those APIs, admittedly, but I've experienced > plenty of the application failures that result. > > -Swift The main issue I had was migrating code to the next version of windows or the development environment. We had a lot of code that talked to accounting systems. In particular a UK product called Sage. Imagine having to take care of version changes in windows, visual basic and Sage all at the same time. The big change was the move from vb to vb.net. That is to say to object oriented programming. Microsoft were a little naughty in saying it was the next version of vb. It wasn't. It was a whole new ball game. In my part of the industry over half of the commercial vb programmers took one look and retired on the spot. Me ? well I loved it. Once you grasped the ideas then you could do so much more. Microsoft support was very good if a little distant. They gave away the development environment because the code only ran under windows and therefore leveraged windows sales. Rod From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 27 19:38:24 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 17:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <005501d1b870$b8b0d6a0$2a1283e0$@net> from Ali at "May 27, 16 04:37:23 pm" Message-ID: <201605280038.u4S0cON05898416@floodgap.com> > You can hardly blame windows for the stupidity of people. This could also > happen w/ discreet stupid devices One word: Therac. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The only thing to fear is fearlessness -- R. E. M. ------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 27 19:43:07 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 17:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: from Swift Griggs at "May 27, 16 04:11:28 pm" Message-ID: <201605280043.u4S0h7IU59637878@floodgap.com> > > I wrote time and mission critical food distribution related software for > > the ten years before I retired in vb and then vb.net (oo) I would have > > seen just about every possible bug in windows and in developing > > applications under it. > > You are probably a good coder who knows how to tweak Windows and make it > do what you need. I don't doubt that's possible. However, there are still > other factors (like the ones I mentioned earlier) that can make it less > desirable. Plus, there is a ton of absolutely horrible Win32, MFC, and VB > code. Not that I write on those APIs, admittedly, but I've experienced > plenty of the application failures that result. There's also a lot of "bad practices" and for whatever reason I see them more with Windows installations. Microsoft, to its credit, is making it harder for people to screw up by default. During my consultant slut days, I was tasked with building the ODBC backend for a campus resource management system and the vendor specified SQL Server, so that's what I did. After I hung up my hat on that job, Code Red blew through and knocked off all the Windows servers on the administrative network ... except that one. They did a forensic analysis and discovered the reason "my" box didn't fall victim was I had written a very restrictive set of file-sharing permissions instead of accepting the Windows default. The worm couldn't get in. It never occurred to the other admins to do that. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- We shoulda bought a squirrel. -- "Rat Race" -------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 27 19:45:05 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 17:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <201605280043.u4S0h7IU59637878@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "May 27, 16 05:43:07 pm" Message-ID: <201605280045.u4S0j5au4849732@floodgap.com> > During my consultant slut days, I was tasked with building the ODBC backend > for a campus resource management system and the vendor specified SQL Server, > so that's what I did. After I hung up my hat on that job, Code Red blew s/Code Red/Nimda/ They got hit by Code Red, too, but I wasn't around at the time. :) > through and knocked off all the Windows servers on the administrative > network ... except that one. They did a forensic analysis and discovered > the reason "my" box didn't fall victim was I had written a very restrictive > set of file-sharing permissions instead of accepting the Windows default. > The worm couldn't get in. > > It never occurred to the other admins to do that. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Logan! You renewed!" ------------------------------------------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 27 19:55:28 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 17:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <004801d1b863$b1da1e70$158e5b50$@net> from Ali at "May 27, 16 03:04:07 pm" Message-ID: <201605280055.u4S0tS4X61932918@floodgap.com> > > I learned a language called "Logo" first. It was taught by volunteer > > instructors at a local community center. I was 7, and the minimum age > > was supposed to be 10, but they let me in anyway. I enjoyed it. It came > > with a few media functions that made programming more fun since it was > > pretty easy to make music or games. Plus it was a little less > > sphghettish than BASIC. There are tons of Logo interpreters and books > > for kids. I get the feeling it's geared exactly toward teaching > > children. Everyone loved the turtle. > > I believe you are right and I think Logo used to be taught in schools. > Unfortunately, I never learned Logo myself. I do have a copy of the IBM Logo > around here somewhere. I think thought Logo might be a bit too simple. Logo has this persistent reputation, but it's actually a very complete FP language even if the syntax is a little stilted. It has a lot in common with Lisp and it can be considered a true descendant of it. The problem is few folks use it anymore because of its stereotype as being strictly pedagogical and it's not well-suited to programming in the large, so it doesn't give him much room to grow. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Intel outside -- 6502 inside! ---------------------------------------------- From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 27 19:56:04 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:56:04 -0400 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <201605280038.u4S0cON05898416@floodgap.com> References: <201605280038.u4S0cON05898416@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <9becf665-5652-3600-9124-7ab823f3e501@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-27 8:38 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> You can hardly blame windows for the stupidity of people. This could also >> happen w/ discreet stupid devices > > One word: Therac. > Therac is not the same threat at all. What seems to be missing from the process that leads to specifying Windows is, indeed, threat modelling. The threat of a virus scanner disabling the machine is not the same as a virus disabling the machine, and so on (a proper enumeration of threats would be quite long). The point is that the threat model for a "discrete stupid device" is VERY different from the threat model for Windows. Human error obviously appears in both lists (and can be mitigated!) And these aren't the only 2 options, either... I think we can all agree that when the outcomes are as bad as this, then the engineering process was faulty. A virus scanner (or virus) is a very easily foreseen problem. --Toby From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 27 19:57:28 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 17:57:28 -0700 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <201605280038.u4S0cON05898416@floodgap.com> References: <005501d1b870$b8b0d6a0$2a1283e0$@net> from Ali at "May 27, 16 04:37:23 pm" <201605280038.u4S0cON05898416@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <005b01d1b87b$e882a7e0$b987f7a0$@net> > > You can hardly blame windows for the stupidity of people. This could > > also happen w/ discreet stupid devices > > One word: Therac. Yes! -Ali From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 27 20:02:14 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 18:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: from Swift Griggs at "May 27, 16 02:23:18 pm" Message-ID: <201605280102.u4S12En359637994@floodgap.com> > > (I was already notorious for refusing to switch to Microsoft Outlook; I > > read my mail on-spool, as God intended, over a terminal window.) > > Damn straight! Check my mail headers and you'll find Alpine :-) I still use the same Elm binary I built on the admin RS/6000 and used on my Apple Network Server 500 on this POWER6. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why, I'd horsewhip you if I had a horse! -- Groucho Marx ------------------- From useddec at gmail.com Fri May 27 20:18:44 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:18:44 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Those were the days when Kelly came up with an idea that was needed now, and most things were done at the Skunkworks. If something was farmed out, the company probably had no idea what the product was for. Everything was done quickly and efficiently, without most of congress knowing. I heard, but never verified, that right out of school he designed the P38, and who knows what else before the U2. On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Thu, 26 May 2016, Toby Thain wrote: > > We're pretty much already there. > > Agreed. You should hear one of my buddies talk about the air traffic > control software he wrote which was replaced with some horror. > > > Audits of the F35 software found: > > * single points of failure (grounding global fleet) > > * security issues > > * that software is the single biggest risk to the project > > One of the principles of Unix: KISS, has been nearly completely lost. > Nobody calls a meeting anymore to say "What can we get rid of? How can we > simplify this? What is the *right* thing to do here?" It's more like "how > big of a kickback will I get if I put in this nasty thing this vendor > wants to sell?" or "Does the new system have buzz?" > > I worked on a gaming system one time (gambling) for embedded Linux > systems. I recognized a few really critical bugs that might have even been > exploitable. Neither the code shop or the clients gave a hoot. They > responded with platitudes when I said "Can we go back and fix the most > critical of our 300 bugs before we move on to new features?" The answer: > "Not now, maybe later." That's one more lesson at the school of hard > knocks, I guess. > > > It's not clear how much Microsoft is already in that loop. > > My guess is "a lot". The military seemed to have drank nearly the entire > bottle of M$ kool aid, especially the Army. > > > While the existence of such projects is ... questionable to begin with, > > one might think the continual under-delivery (across all military > > boondoggles) might give taxpayers pause. > > 1 TRILLION (with big fat "T") dollars went into the F35 development > (that's nearly half of one years tax revenue for the entire country), the > results thus far have been pathetic if the news is to be believed. At > least most of that money, boondoggle or not, is spent in the USA, I guess. > > However, I pine for the days when modest efforts produced the incredible > SR-71 Blackbird (my all-time favorite aircraft). It was produced > relatively quickly compared to the F35. Wikipedia says they started > designing it in 1960 and it was flying by 1962. I'm no aviation expert by > a long shot, but still that seems infinitely better than the current > circus around the F35. I know that they aren't the same type of aircraft, > and that the F35 is more "sophisticated" (but still way slower). I also > understand that they had a zillion different design goals and basically > were trying to please too many masters. I'm not sure who the blame rests > with, but I'm right there with you calling the F35 a boondoggle. It hasn't > seen battle yet (and I hope it doesn't have to) but I'm a little worried > about the fact that it's beaten (badly) in simulations and exercises with > much older fighter aircraft with much more "primitive" tech, including > Russian aircraft, too. > > Aviation guys, am I all wet about the F35? > > -Swift > From useddec at gmail.com Fri May 27 20:27:00 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:27:00 -0500 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: <5746D393.3050502@labyrinth.net.au> References: <5746D393.3050502@labyrinth.net.au> Message-ID: Thanks Lionel, You just helped me start a new list! On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 5:44 AM, Lionel Johnson wrote: > On 25/05/2016 5:06 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> I used to have a notebook of toggle in programs for the PDP8s and PDP11s, >> but it seems to be lost forever. >> >> Not being a software person it takes me hours to write and debug the >> simplest routines. Is there a site with a list of toggle in maintenance >> programs? >> >> >> >> I used to work on DEC systems of all types, loved the PDP-11, cause you > could get right into it, not like VAX, which was huge and almost > incomprehensible. I wrote button-in test programs as needed, below is a > useful address checker, mostly used on instals, found bad switches giving > wrong addresses. Used a similar one to trap vector addresses, find the > wrong ones. > > > > I/O PAGE ADDRESS LISTER PROGRAM > ------------------------------- > > 1000 012706 001000 MOV #1000, > SP > 1004 012737 001054 000004 MOV > #TRAP,@#4 > 1012 012700 002000 MOV #2000,R0 > 1016 010001 MOV R0,R1 > 1020 005020 LOOP: CLR @(R0)+ > 1022 020027 006000 CMP R0,#6000 > 1026 001374 BNE LOOP > 1030 012700 160000 MOV > #160000,R0 > 1034 005710 LOOP1: TST @(R0) > 1036 010021 MOV > R0,@(R1)+ > 1040 062700 000002 LOOP2: ADD #2,R0 > 1044 020027 177776 CMP > R0,#177776 > 1050 001371 BNE LOOP1 > 1052 000000 HALT > 1054 022626 TRAP: CMP > @(R6)+,@(R6)+ > 1056 000770 BR LOOP2 > > > THIS PROGRAM USES TRAP TO 4 ON UNIBUS TIMEOUT TO > FIND ALL VALID > UNIBUS ADDRESSES ON THE SYSTEM UNDER TEST. > THE LIST OF ADDRESSES WILL BE STORED IN A TABLE > COMMENCING AT > LOCN 2000. > THERE ARE SOME LARGE BLOCKS OF ADDRESSES WHICH > SHOULD NOT BE > PRINTED OUT. eg. 165000-165776 173000-173776. > TO IDENTIFY THE ADDRESSES LISTED, SEE THE BACK > PAGES OF THE > PERIPHERAL HANDBOOK. > > SAMPLE RESULT:- > > SOUTHDOWN PRESS 11/24 OAKLEIGH 11/70 > > 160200-160376 ???? 160120-160126 DZ11 > 160770-160776 AD01? 165000-165776 BOOT DIAGS > 164200-164376 ???? 170200-170376 U/BUS MAP > 165000-165776 BOOT DIAGS 172202-172376 SUPER > PAR/PDR0-7 > 170200-170376 U/BUS MAP 172440-172476 > RH70/TM03/TE16 > 172100 MS11-P CSR 172516 MMR3 > 172300-172316 KERNEL PDR 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES > 172340-172356 KERNEL PAR 176700-176752 RH70/RP06 > 172516 MMR3 177546 LINE CLOCK > 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES 177560-177566 CONSOLE > 176500-176506 DL11 177570 SWR > 176700-176746 EMULEX SC21 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2 > 177546 KW11-L 177600-177616 USER DATA > PDR0-7 > 177560-177566 CONSOLE 177620-177636 USER INS PDR0-7 > 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2 177640-177656 USER INS > PAR0-7 > 177600-177616 USER PDR 177660-177676 USER DATA > PAR0-7 > 177640-177656 USER PAR 177740-177752 MEMORY REGS > 177734-177736 LMA LO/HI WORD 177760-177776 CPU REGS > 177766 CPU ERR REG > > > > 11/23 SYSTEM EXAMPLE:- > --------------------- > > > > 172300-172316 MEM MAN KERNEL PDR > 172340-172356 MEM MAN KERNEL PAR > 172516- MMR3 > 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES > 176500-176526 DLV11-J (3 PORTS) > 177170-177172 RXV21 > 177546 KWV11-L > 177560-177566 DLV11-J (CONSOLE) > 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2 > 177600-177616 MEM MAN USER PDR > 177640-177656 MEM MAN USER PAR > > > Lionel. > > > > > > > > * > From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 27 20:43:41 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 18:43:41 -0700 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <005401d1b862$122fe6d0$368fb470$@classiccmp.org> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <045601d1b843$415bcd30$c4136790$@com> <004401d1b85f$222a3390$667e9ab0$@net> <005401d1b862$122fe6d0$368fb470$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5748F7CD.6040001@sydex.com> On 05/27/2016 02:52 PM, Jay West wrote: > > At the risk of being flamed... I'll mention that if the kid is more > visually driven, you might try introducing him to an Arduino Uno or > similar. Something he can see the results of his code in lights and > dials. One of my fondest memories of my long-deceased father was when he took a plank of pine and built a 1-tube radio with me. I think it was a 1G4G (triode). We wound and shellacked the coils. Earphones and A and B batteries. It was wonderful--and I was hooked. I don't know if ARM or AVR BASICs are available, but you can purchase one-board MCUs (like the Maple mini) for next to nothing. I think that getting that going with BASIC or any other language would be a great adventure for a young boy. After all, in a couple of years, he'll be teaching *you* how to use a PC. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 27 20:53:20 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:53:20 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57479E10.2010908@pico-systems.com> <574873E9.2060000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5748FA10.2040601@pico-systems.com> On 05/27/2016 11:45 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> OK, where can you buy some? > You ask the community. You ask on the list or elsewhere. "Hey, I need > a 361459. Anyone have one?". > >> They haven't been made since about 1970. > But in those six or seven years - wow, did they make a lot of them. In > Binghamton, we have some of those dumb desk ornament things that suits > like to hand out. One of them is has the 100 Millionth (!) SLT module Yes, IBM was cranking out SLT at an absolutely amazing rate! In fact, before there was Silicon Valley, upstate New York was a huge technology center, and most of it was churning out all the myriad assemblies of IBM 360 systems, processors, channels, memory, peripherals, etc. > (OK, we know that being a dumb desk ornament, they probably made some > number of 100 Millionth SLT module, but the point is clear). Oh, and > the desk ornament is dated fairly early in the game! > >> IBM >> sent out a letter to all 360 users who had machines under contract, giving a >> date when they would no longer guarantee that any particular machine could >> be repaired, due to lack of spare modules, and a second (later) date when > Typical IBM. Well, it was pretty much commanded by the US government. Remember, they had to keep 360s running until 1989! YIKES! (Although I'm sure at the time they had no idea the replacement would drag on for that long.) > SLT and S/360s did indeed have teething problems. It took > a while to get the bugs out of the system. Yes, but I'm sure once they DID get manufacturing of of SLT working, they had a way to make lots of logic at a cost much lower than all the other computer makers who were still stuck with little metal-can transistors and glass diodes on PC boards. >> But, I'll bet that oxygen and moisture will continue to take their toll at a >> slower rate. Remember, all this gear is now about 50 years old! > IBM SLT cards and modules seem to do well - I have picked up more than > a few that were exposed to the elements, and if they are not beaten up > (curse those crappy thin aluminum covers they used!), moisture tends > to not be a big issue, thanks to the silicone goop underneath. > I looked at some stuff from the disk lab in Rochester, MN. (I think) that was given to Washington University some years ago. It had all been stored in good conditions. WU wanted the air bearing fixtures and a few other things, but had no interest in all the gear that ran it, Series/1 and racks of SLT boards. Some of the aluminum covers could be flicked off with your fingernail..The green epoxy that held them on had started to go bad, I guess. Some of the guys who reported earlier on 1800 systems seemed to think they were a LOT more reliable than my experiences watching 360/50 and 360/65 reliability. It might be that the 1800 had shorter stacks of boards to be cooled in the same airflow. I know the /65 had a tall stack, and some of the areas of the CPU had pretty hot air coming out the top. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 27 20:55:35 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:55:35 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <57479E10.2010908@pico-systems.com> <57487755.3030104@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5748FA97.8010404@pico-systems.com> On 05/27/2016 11:55 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > I suppose chip level repair might be possible with today's > SOTs, but I would not want to do it! -- Will Yes, ONLY to keep a museum system working, but if spares are actually available, that would not only be easier, but more original! Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 27 21:14:34 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 21:14:34 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5748FF0A.9050009@pico-systems.com> On 05/27/2016 08:18 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Aviation guys, am I all wet about the F35? > > OK, the whole concept with the F35, if they can ever get it all working, is that is is NOT an airplane (singular). It is a SYSTEM of planes. So, each pilot can see what ALL the other aircraft in the region see. If one guy spots a new SAM site, he can mark it, and they ALL now know it is there. Some F35s can go "dark" and shut off their RADAR transmitter, and use other aircraft's transmitters to illuminate their target. All sorts of advanced stuff like that will make it a formidable system, but it all depends on a huge amount of software and communications systems to all work together. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 27 21:17:18 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 21:17:18 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5748FFAE.80705@pico-systems.com> It hasn't seen battle yet (and I hope it doesn't have to) but I'm a little worried about the fact that it's beaten (badly) in simulations and exercises with much older fighter aircraft with much more "primitive" tech, including Russian aircraft, too. Oh, just to add more, the F35 is not a "fighter" despite its designation. It is an air superiority platform that is never supposed to get into a dogfight. It is supposed to be in a network of planes, and agressors will be shot down by missile from 50 miles away. The F22 is supposed to be the dogfighter. Jon From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri May 27 21:23:07 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 19:23:07 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <5748FFAE.80705@pico-systems.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <5748FFAE.80705@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On May 27, 2016, at 7:17 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > > It hasn't > seen battle yet (and I hope it doesn't have to) but I'm a little worried > about the fact that it's beaten (badly) in simulations and exercises with > much older fighter aircraft with much more "primitive" tech, including > Russian aircraft, too. > > > Oh, just to add more, the F35 is not a "fighter" despite its designation. It is an air superiority platform that is never supposed to get into a dogfight. It is supposed to be in a network of planes, and agressors will be shot down by missile from 50 miles away. The F22 is supposed to be the dogfighter. ?and that was the issue with the F4 Phantom during Vietnam. The F4 was designed to take out aircraft with its missiles. Except that didn?t work too well. The USAF decided after Vietnam that all ?fighters? would have a ?gun? of some sort. I guess they forgot that lesson. TTFN - Guy From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri May 27 22:00:54 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 22:00:54 -0500 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <5748F7CD.6040001@sydex.com> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <045601d1b843$415bcd30$c4136790$@com> <004401d1b85f$222a3390$667e9ab0$@net> <005401d1b862$122fe6d0$368fb470$@classiccmp.org> <5748F7CD.6040001@sydex.com> Message-ID: Speaking of LOGO (and the Terrapin..), I assume PILOT is still around in some form? Correct me here, but I believe that a +BASIC+ implementation of PILOT was released for either the VIC-20 (??) or the C-64. I recall typing it in, back in the early 1980s, just for kicks. Could that actually have been for the VIC? An admittedly simple (and restrictive) high-level language coded in CBM BASIC, with like 3K of RAM? =) On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/27/2016 02:52 PM, Jay West wrote: > > > > At the risk of being flamed... I'll mention that if the kid is more > > visually driven, you might try introducing him to an Arduino Uno or > > similar. Something he can see the results of his code in lights and > > dials. > > One of my fondest memories of my long-deceased father was when he took a > plank of pine and built a 1-tube radio with me. I think it was a 1G4G > (triode). We wound and shellacked the coils. Earphones and A and B > batteries. It was wonderful--and I was hooked. > > I don't know if ARM or AVR BASICs are available, but you can purchase > one-board MCUs (like the Maple mini) for next to nothing. I think that > getting that going with BASIC or any other language would be a great > adventure for a young boy. > > After all, in a couple of years, he'll be teaching *you* how to use a PC. > > --Chuck > > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 27 22:02:52 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: from "drlegendre ." at "May 27, 16 10:00:54 pm" Message-ID: <201605280302.u4S32qrT54657600@floodgap.com> > Speaking of LOGO (and the Terrapin..), I assume PILOT is still around in > some form? Correct me here, but I believe that a +BASIC+ implementation of > PILOT was released for either the VIC-20 (??) or the C-64. I recall typing > it in, back in the early 1980s, just for kicks. > > Could that actually have been for the VIC? An admittedly simple (and > restrictive) high-level language coded in CBM BASIC, with like 3K of RAM? =) I dunno about the VIC-20, but COMPUTE! had one for the Commodore 64 which overlaid on BASIC. Clever idea I thought at the time. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Men talk of killing time, while time quietly kills them. -- Dion Bocicault - From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri May 27 22:09:06 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 22:09:06 -0500 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <201605280302.u4S32qrT54657600@floodgap.com> References: <201605280302.u4S32qrT54657600@floodgap.com> Message-ID: @Cameron Pilot for the C-64 does sound much more plausible, yes.. And likewise, I thought it was a very nice idea. But hm.. other than formatting text, don't both the VIC-20 and C-64 share the same CBM BASIC version? No reason that PILOT for C-64 couldn't run on VIC, with enough memory expansion, I'd think? On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Speaking of LOGO (and the Terrapin..), I assume PILOT is still around in > > some form? Correct me here, but I believe that a +BASIC+ implementation > of > > PILOT was released for either the VIC-20 (??) or the C-64. I recall > typing > > it in, back in the early 1980s, just for kicks. > > > > Could that actually have been for the VIC? An admittedly simple (and > > restrictive) high-level language coded in CBM BASIC, with like 3K of > RAM? =) > > I dunno about the VIC-20, but COMPUTE! had one for the Commodore 64 which > overlaid on BASIC. Clever idea I thought at the time. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Men talk of killing time, while time quietly kills them. -- Dion > Bocicault - > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 27 22:15:38 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:15:38 -0700 Subject: Monster 6502 Message-ID: Here is a video of it running at Maker Faire http://makezine.com/2016/05/27/this-functioning-monster-6502-is-a-larger-than-life-version-of-the-iconic-microchip/ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 27 22:25:10 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 20:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: from "drlegendre ." at "May 27, 16 10:09:06 pm" Message-ID: <201605280325.u4S3PAZR5898394@floodgap.com> > > > Could that actually have been for the VIC? An admittedly simple (and > > > restrictive) high-level language coded in CBM BASIC, with like 3K of > > > RAM? =) > > > > I dunno about the VIC-20, but COMPUTE! had one for the Commodore 64 which > > overlaid on BASIC. Clever idea I thought at the time. > > Pilot for the C-64 does sound much more plausible, yes.. And likewise, I > thought it was a very nice idea. > > But hm.. other than formatting text, don't both the VIC-20 and C-64 share > the same CBM BASIC version? No reason that PILOT for C-64 couldn't run on > VIC, with enough memory expansion, I'd think? With appropriate modification for any differences in memory layout, sure, I'd imagine so. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never send a human to do a machine's job. -- "The Matrix" ------------------ From cctalk at snarc.net Fri May 27 22:27:19 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 23:27:19 -0400 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> > Here is a video of it running at Maker Faire > > http://makezine.com/2016/05/27/this-functioning-monster-6502-is-a-larger-than-life-version-of-the-iconic-microchip/ It will be at CHM for VCF West, too. :) From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri May 27 22:56:58 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 22:56:58 -0500 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> Message-ID: "The effort that Eric put into this project is not clearly evident at first glance.." Oohhh reallllyyy... I'm not so sure about that, now! Gawd, what a lovely piece of work that man hath wrought! And am I the only one who felt the list of 'notable users' was essentially backwards?? Should be Apple, CBM, Nintendo - eh? No? On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 10:27 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Here is a video of it running at Maker Faire >> >> >> http://makezine.com/2016/05/27/this-functioning-monster-6502-is-a-larger-than-life-version-of-the-iconic-microchip/ >> > > It will be at CHM for VCF West, too. :) > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 27 23:13:31 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 21:13:31 -0700 Subject: ISO "VME/10 Microcomputer System Equipment Manual" Message-ID: <5d872d1b-ecbd-ac67-9757-314a8a3201e3@bitsavers.org> Moto part number M68KVSEM/D1 I have most of the manuals, but not the hardware manual. From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Fri May 27 17:05:55 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (Alex McWhirter) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 18:05:55 -0400 Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?Re:_Windows_use_in_medical_spaces_(?= =?US-ASCII?Q?Re:_vintage_computers_in_active=0D__use)?= Message-ID: <4xbniucp4sxkpv73rjvj6thp.1464386755265@email.android.com> Where Windows generally fails in my experience is in the idot proofing / automation mechanisms. I can really only comment on Windows 7 as it's what we use in production on our client boxes. Granted this is a different environment where all machines have access to the internet and thus Windows updates / aplication updates. Group Policy is something I struggle with regularly. Automatically feeding Group Policy updates to clients is not always straightforward, especially when you need to push application updates to fix important security or functionality bugs. Yes, you can gpupdate /force, but that's only seems to work about 50% of the time and requires user intervention on an admin account. I've seen issues with the Print Spooler randomly crashing from a partially install printer through group policy. Some kind of event happens similar to a power outage at some point and the printer only partially installed. According to Windows and the group policy management utilities the printers were successfully installed, but all of the driver utilities didn't quite make it causing the Spooler to freak out. When something like this happens event log is almost useless because it just tells you the prinint spooler crashed from an uknown error. Windows update seems to regularly stop working when a malformed update package is downloaded. You would think it could just checksum it and delete the package rather than failing to install it a few hundred times before a user complains that their workstation won't stop installing upates. I even had a case where a failed update created new registry keys every time it tried to install and after a few months of not being able to do so the machine slowed to be unusable.? Roaming profiles is an absolute mess, and folder redirection Works decently as long as you disable offline files on all of the clients. Otherwise windows will just randomly decide that it can't connect to the server and only show the users their offline files. ?Windows deployment services on the other hand Works absolutely great and is perfect to put fresh installs on the machines that died from various other issues with windows and / or malware. This is starting to somewhat turn into a rant, and in all honesty for most things Windows does a pretty good job. Pretty much all the issues I outlined would only affect people using Windows as a workstation OS. Embedded applications generally don't have updates or network connectivity, and thus are probably fine. That being said my *nix machines have never given me an issue that wasn't easily fixed since they were put in place. I almost forget about them sometimes. Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- From: Rod Smallwood Date: 5/27/2016 5:37 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) On 27/05/2016 22:04, Ali wrote: >?? >> It makes me wonder how many patients have had to wait on care or didn't >> get proper care because of an IT screwup related to Windows. I have to >> say just _seeing_ Windows on machines in the ER made me livid. I found >> it breathtaking they were that caviler about getting people checked in, >> keeping records straight, etc... I guess I shouldn't have visited the >> sausage factory, so to speak... >> >> Then again, folks in hospitals probably should be more concerned with >> patients than with their IT tools. Ugh. Still. Windows? I'd have felt >> better about paper forms. At least they don't blue screen. > > I would say very few. You have to remember critical systems are not running > a general windows system i.e. people are not surfing the web on them and > installing the latest games recommended by friends from facebook. Windows on > its own is very stable. I.E. if you take a clean install of windows SW on > recommended HW and just use the built in apps and never go on the internet > it will run without any issues. Medical HW makers are basically using > recommended HW, building one application on top of the OS, and test the hell > out of it. Since they limit the HW, SW, and modality of use it runs stable. > > Almost all (maybe 80%) of your medical HW is probably running some flavor of > windows. > > Pyxis/Omnicell: Windows CE > Sonosite: Windows 2K or XP > EMRs: Windows XP or 7 (usually virtualized through Citrix). > > Heck DOS is still around too! > > The more specialized equipment (fluoro machines, MRI/CT, etc.) usually have > their own OS although I am seeing C-Arms w/ windows back bones now a days as > well. As the focus is going toward cost saving more and more generalized > HW/SW is being used. After all why re-invent everything for each device when > you can use windows to run the HW, network, input, etc. and just have the > medical device (e.g. ultrasound probe) act like a peripheral with its own > drivers. > > Where windows causes an issue for the hospital is in the general business > areas (HR, accounting, administration, etc.). > > -Ali > Please can we have some specific instances of? Windows causing problems. Not unqualified people at home or students but real production environments with qualified support on hand. I used every version of windows from 1 to 10.? yes XP and millennium too I wrote time and mission critical food distribution related software for the ten years before I retired in vb and then vb.net (oo)? I would have seen just about every possible bug in windows and in developing applications under it. Lets hear what others experienced. Rod From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 28 03:26:34 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 09:26:34 +0100 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <004201d1b85b$690476d0$3b0d6470$@net> <139ed825-b768-2803-1fe2-0bc3136f373c@btinternet.com> <016f01d1b86c$33c51db0$9b4f5910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <031201d1b8ba$a554c900$effe5b00$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Stoness > Sent: 28 May 2016 00:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active > use) > > crypto locker on linux would work if someone exicuted it but then that would be > a user fail like most people who get infected from going to the wrong sites and > clicking crap... > Yes as someone pointed out, the system liveware tends to be unreliable. However what makes you think Windows is different to a Linux GUI. Opening a mail won't run anything UNLESS you have wound the security settings down.. In defence of the Live Ware it tends to be well concealed crap. Seen a few genuine looking "invoices" which appear to come from legitimate companies, with real names and phone numbers correctly formatted for the UK. My name is pretty common so how do I know its not a genuine mis-directed article, especially in large organization. The latest ruse is to forge a senior managers address and send instructions to send money to a bank account quickly..... As someone who knew much more about these things than I do once said, the only totally secure system is one you can't actually use.... > > > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Dave Wade > wrote: > > > > Please can we have some specific instances of Windows causing problems. > > > Not unqualified people at home or students but real production > > environments > > > with qualified support on hand. > > > I used every version of windows from 1 to 10. yes XP and millennium > > > too > > > > > > > It is susceptible to MalWare of all types. We had some XP embedded > > thin clients that got attacked by Confiker but of course they were > > clean after a re-boot > > > > but the main reason Linux and Apple isn't attacked is because there > > are many more window systems, although I read somewhere Apple devices > > were being targeted because Apple users had more cash.. > > I see Apple has been hit by Ransom Ware... > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/07/apple-targeted-by-k > > erange > > r-ransom-malware-for-first-time > > > > I can't see why Crypto Locker could work on ANY Linux or BSD box.... > > > > > I wrote time and mission critical food distribution related software > > > for > > the ten > > > years before I retired in vb and then vb.net (oo) I would have seen > > just > > about > > > every possible bug in windows and in developing applications under it. > > > > > > Lets hear what others experienced. > > > > Sorry I know I have already said but generally very reliable. Some > > issues where call centre staff on XP were allowed to surf the web as > > administrators... > > ... conficker was a real problem > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conficker > > > > > > > > > > > > Rod > > > > > > > > Dave > > G4UGM > > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 28 03:35:28 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 09:35:28 +0100 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <9becf665-5652-3600-9124-7ab823f3e501@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201605280038.u4S0cON05898416@floodgap.com> <9becf665-5652-3600-9124-7ab823f3e501@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <031301d1b8bb$e3dd6eb0$ab984c10$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Toby Thain > Sent: 28 May 2016 01:56 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active > use) > > On 2016-05-27 8:38 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> You can hardly blame windows for the stupidity of people. This could > >> also happen w/ discreet stupid devices > > > > One word: Therac. > > > > Therac is not the same threat at all. What seems to be missing from the > process that leads to specifying Windows is, indeed, threat modelling. > The threat of a virus scanner disabling the machine is not the same as a virus > disabling the machine, and so on (a proper enumeration of threats would be > quite long). > > The point is that the threat model for a "discrete stupid device" is VERY > different from the threat model for Windows. Human error obviously appears > in both lists (and can be mitigated!) And these aren't the only > 2 options, either... > > I think we can all agree that when the outcomes are as bad as this, then the > engineering process was faulty. A virus scanner (or virus) is a very easily > foreseen problem. Getting managers to understand that putting security controls in place may lead to a denial of service which is more serious than the original threat is hard. Evaluation of the residual threats after the controls are in place should be standard procedure. It is part of ISO 27001.... When I worked in E-Mail and was being sold Mail Scanners I always asked what about false positives? They would say you get a junior to check those, which is of course a bad thing, as the mails may contain bad things.... So I would say one of the senior directors mistresses keeps forgetting her Hotmail password and just sets up a new account so I can't white list her.. She e-mails rather fruity pictures to the director, would these get stopped and would the junior see them... Most of the salesmen just crawled away.... Dave > > --Toby From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 28 03:48:07 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 09:48:07 +0100 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <4xbniucp4sxkpv73rjvj6thp.1464386755265@email.android.com> References: <4xbniucp4sxkpv73rjvj6thp.1464386755265@email.android.com> Message-ID: <031801d1b8bd$a870a7a0$f951f6e0$@gmail.com> 1) We always staged updates internally using WSUS which allows limited testing. 2) GPO's are not a good way to deliver critical updates, but they are what you get "out of the box" and "systems centre" is an arm and leg in dollars... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alex > McWhirter > Sent: 27 May 2016 23:06 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active > use) > > > > Where Windows generally fails in my experience is in the idot proofing / > automation mechanisms. I can really only comment on Windows 7 as it's what > we use in production on our client boxes. > Granted this is a different environment where all machines have access to the > internet and thus Windows updates / aplication updates. > Group Policy is something I struggle with regularly. Automatically feeding > Group Policy updates to clients is not always straightforward, especially when > you need to push application updates to fix important security or functionality > bugs. Yes, you can gpupdate /force, but that's only seems to work about 50% of > the time and requires user intervention on an admin account. > I've seen issues with the Print Spooler randomly crashing from a partially install > printer through group policy. Some kind of event happens similar to a power > outage at some point and the printer only partially installed. According to > Windows and the group policy management utilities the printers were > successfully installed, but all of the driver utilities didn't quite make it causing > the Spooler to freak out. When something like this happens event log is almost > useless because it just tells you the prinint spooler crashed from an uknown > error. > Windows update seems to regularly stop working when a malformed update > package is downloaded. You would think it could just checksum it and delete > the package rather than failing to install it a few hundred times before a user > complains that their workstation won't stop installing upates. I even had a case > where a failed update created new registry keys every time it tried to install > and after a few months of not being able to do so the machine slowed to be > unusable. Roaming profiles is an absolute mess, and folder redirection Works > decently as long as you disable offline files on all of the clients. Otherwise > windows will just randomly decide that it can't connect to the server and only > show the users their offline files. > Windows deployment services on the other hand Works absolutely great and is > perfect to put fresh installs on the machines that died from various other issues > with windows and / or malware. > This is starting to somewhat turn into a rant, and in all honesty for most things > Windows does a pretty good job. Pretty much all the issues I outlined would > only affect people using Windows as a workstation OS. Embedded applications > generally don't have updates or network connectivity, and thus are probably > fine. > That being said my *nix machines have never given me an issue that wasn't > easily fixed since they were put in place. I almost forget about them > sometimes. > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Rod Smallwood > Date: 5/27/2016 5:37 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active > use) > > > > On 27/05/2016 22:04, Ali wrote: > > > >> It makes me wonder how many patients have had to wait on care or > >> didn't get proper care because of an IT screwup related to Windows. I > >> have to say just _seeing_ Windows on machines in the ER made me > >> livid. I found it breathtaking they were that caviler about getting > >> people checked in, keeping records straight, etc... I guess I > >> shouldn't have visited the sausage factory, so to speak... > >> > >> Then again, folks in hospitals probably should be more concerned with > >> patients than with their IT tools. Ugh. Still. Windows? I'd have felt > >> better about paper forms. At least they don't blue screen. > > > > I would say very few. You have to remember critical systems are not > > running a general windows system i.e. people are not surfing the web > > on them and installing the latest games recommended by friends from > > facebook. Windows on its own is very stable. I.E. if you take a clean > > install of windows SW on recommended HW and just use the built in apps > > and never go on the internet it will run without any issues. Medical > > HW makers are basically using recommended HW, building one application > > on top of the OS, and test the hell out of it. Since they limit the HW, SW, and > modality of use it runs stable. > > > > Almost all (maybe 80%) of your medical HW is probably running some > > flavor of windows. > > > > Pyxis/Omnicell: Windows CE > > Sonosite: Windows 2K or XP > > EMRs: Windows XP or 7 (usually virtualized through Citrix). > > > > Heck DOS is still around too! > > > > The more specialized equipment (fluoro machines, MRI/CT, etc.) usually > > have their own OS although I am seeing C-Arms w/ windows back bones > > now a days as well. As the focus is going toward cost saving more and > > more generalized HW/SW is being used. After all why re-invent > > everything for each device when you can use windows to run the HW, > > network, input, etc. and just have the medical device (e.g. ultrasound > > probe) act like a peripheral with its own drivers. > > > > Where windows causes an issue for the hospital is in the general > > business areas (HR, accounting, administration, etc.). > > > > -Ali > > > Please can we have some specific instances of Windows causing problems. > Not unqualified people at home or students but real production environments > with qualified support on hand. > I used every version of windows from 1 to 10. yes XP and millennium too > > I wrote time and mission critical food distribution related software for the ten > years before I retired in vb and then vb.net (oo) I would have seen just about > every possible bug in windows and in developing applications under it. > > Lets hear what others experienced. > > Rod > > From malcolm at avitech.com.au Sat May 28 04:51:30 2016 From: malcolm at avitech.com.au (malcolm at avitech.com.au) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 19:51:30 +1000 Subject: Mystery IBM processor Message-ID: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> Just wondering if anyone can help us to identify a rather large IBM processor assembly. It weighs around 60 pounds. The frame has a P/N of 34F5089. The frame houses 9 modules, 6 of which are installed. The module we removed for inspection has a P/N of 34F0615. Photos available here -> http://avitech.com.au/?p=561 Thanks, Malcolm. From ats at offog.org Sat May 28 05:45:05 2016 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 11:45:05 +0100 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <201605280055.u4S0tS4X61932918@floodgap.com> (Cameron Kaiser's message of "Fri, 27 May 2016 17:55:28 -0700 (PDT)") References: <201605280055.u4S0tS4X61932918@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Cameron Kaiser writes: > The problem is few folks use it anymore You might be surprised: NetLogo (Logo on top of the JVM, derived from MIT's StarLogo) is very widely used for agent-based complex systems simulation -- for example, I've worked on a project recently that's used NetLogo as a modelling tool for studying granuloma formation. It's come a long way from its FD 10 LT 90 beginnings! https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/ -- Adam Sampson From applecorey at optonline.net Sat May 28 06:31:04 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 07:31:04 -0400 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> Message-ID: > On May 27, 2016, at 11:56 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > "The effort that Eric put into this project is not clearly evident at first > glance.." > > Oohhh reallllyyy... I'm not so sure about that, now! > > Gawd, what a lovely piece of work that man hath wrought! And am I the only > one who felt the list of 'notable users' was essentially backwards?? > > Should be Apple, CBM, Nintendo - eh? No? > >> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 10:27 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >> Here is a video of it running at Maker Faire >>> >>> >>> http://makezine.com/2016/05/27/this-functioning-monster-6502-is-a-larger-than-life-version-of-the-iconic-microchip/ >> >> It will be at CHM for VCF West, too. :) >> I can't wait to buy one!!! I have a spare Replica-1 just waiting to hook up to a Monster 6502. Just need to wire up a single step switch and this thing will be awesome!!! Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? From applecorey at optonline.net Sat May 28 06:31:04 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 07:31:04 -0400 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> Message-ID: > On May 27, 2016, at 11:56 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > "The effort that Eric put into this project is not clearly evident at first > glance.." > > Oohhh reallllyyy... I'm not so sure about that, now! > > Gawd, what a lovely piece of work that man hath wrought! And am I the only > one who felt the list of 'notable users' was essentially backwards?? > > Should be Apple, CBM, Nintendo - eh? No? > >> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 10:27 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >> Here is a video of it running at Maker Faire >>> >>> >>> http://makezine.com/2016/05/27/this-functioning-monster-6502-is-a-larger-than-life-version-of-the-iconic-microchip/ >> >> It will be at CHM for VCF West, too. :) >> I can't wait to buy one!!! I have a spare Replica-1 just waiting to hook up to a Monster 6502. Just need to wire up a single step switch and this thing will be awesome!!! Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat May 28 11:04:08 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 09:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <004b01d1b863$b2759b20$1760d160$@net> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> <014601d1b85a$5cc1b0a0$164511e0$@gmail.com> <0A75D5AC-E864-49B4-9BB2-F49AC2A550D0@orthanc.ca> <004b01d1b863$b2759b20$1760d160$@net> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Ali wrote: > I'd like him to understand why things work they way they do, that the cloud > is not a magical thing, and that at a certain level an > iPad=PC=5110=System/360. > Make sure you tell him that "cloud" is just a fancy term for "somebody else's computer". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat May 28 05:29:19 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 22:29:19 +1200 Subject: Mystery IBM processor In-Reply-To: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> References: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> Message-ID: On May 28, 2016 9:51 PM, wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone can help us to identify a rather large IBM > processor assembly. It weighs around 60 pounds. > > The frame has a P/N of 34F5089. The frame houses 9 modules, 6 of which are > installed. The module we removed for inspection has a P/N of 34F0615. Definitely IBM mainframe. The individual square alloy lumps are what are called MCMs - Multi Chip Modules. Insides are dozens of individual ECL ICs. Water cooling heatsinks would have been bolted to the front side in life. Can't remember what IBM called the entire assembly. 1980s, probably a 3080 or 3090 but don't quote me on that. Mike From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat May 28 05:50:50 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 06:50:50 -0400 Subject: Mystery IBM processor In-Reply-To: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> References: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:51 AM, wrote: > Just wondering if anyone can help us to identify a rather large IBM > processor assembly. It weighs around 60 pounds. > > The frame has a P/N of 34F5089. The frame houses 9 modules, 6 of which are > installed. The module we removed for inspection has a P/N of 34F0615. If you opened up one of the modules it would look like this... bunch of ECL chips with copper heatsinks conducting heat to the outer alloy casing where the water cooling manifolds would be bolted on. And all that internal cavity with chips and heatsinks was filled with a... sticky goopy fluid to aid in heat conduction. Power consumption... enormous!! http://wp.xin.at/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/mcm.jpg Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sat May 28 05:51:29 2016 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 10:51:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Set of mystery DEC boards: who can help me identifying these? References: <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hello list, I recently got a bunch of boards from somebody who was either not able to tell me where they were from. The boards seem to be unibus-based with numbers starting with X. I neither came across these before, nor could find any information in the web about it: Type, P/N , Description X029, 5013132B, AUC interconnect X022, 5012197C, unibuswindow X021, 5012181C, CD ROM control (did that ever exist for unibus?) X020, 5012180B, data path Two 16K mos memory modules M7847 came with the set. No backplane, unfortunately. Any hints about the type of system and application these boards were for? Many thanks for any pointers. Wish a nice weekend to all of you, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat May 28 06:35:05 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 08:35:05 -0300 Subject: Mystery IBM processor In-Reply-To: References: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> Message-ID: <57498269.4070707@gmail.com> On 2016-05-28 7:50 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:51 AM, wrote: >> Just wondering if anyone can help us to identify a rather large IBM >> processor assembly. It weighs around 60 pounds. >> >> The frame has a P/N of 34F5089. The frame houses 9 modules, 6 of which are >> installed. The module we removed for inspection has a P/N of 34F0615. > If you opened up one of the modules it would look like this... bunch > of ECL chips with copper heatsinks conducting heat to the outer alloy > casing where the water cooling manifolds would be bolted on. And all > that internal cavity with chips and heatsinks was filled with a... > sticky goopy fluid to aid in heat conduction. Power consumption... > enormous!! > > http://wp.xin.at/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/mcm.jpg > > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' 34F5089 is used in a number of models of 3090 processor 34F0615 is not found and is likely a manufacturing number, look for part numbers that have the letters FRU in from of them, they are the field spare part numbers. Paul. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 28 06:40:39 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 12:40:39 +0100 Subject: Mystery IBM processor In-Reply-To: References: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> Message-ID: <03ac01d1b8d5$c2a2d090$47e871b0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross > Sent: 28 May 2016 11:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Mystery IBM processor > > On May 28, 2016 9:51 PM, wrote: > > > > Just wondering if anyone can help us to identify a rather large IBM > > processor assembly. It weighs around 60 pounds. > > > > The frame has a P/N of 34F5089. The frame houses 9 modules, 6 of which > > are installed. The module we removed for inspection has a P/N of 34F0615. > > Definitely IBM mainframe. The individual square alloy lumps are what are > called MCMs - Multi Chip Modules. Insides are dozens of individual ECL ICs. > Water cooling heatsinks would have been bolted to the front side in life. > Can't remember what IBM called the entire assembly. 1980s, probably a 3080 > or 3090 but don't quote me on that. I believe the modules are called TCM's or Thermal Conduction Modules. It looks like a 3090 chip but I thought those were withdrawn before the date code of "90xx". I thought the ES/9000 follow on had a re-designed chip with multiple rows of pins like this... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-IBM-9121-TCM-Thermal-Conduction-Module-ES-9000-Mainframe-Microprocessor-/182138577581 but when I look at the IBM web pages:- http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP9000.html it says only the high end machines have the new TCM so I think it may be a TCM from an entry level ES/9000 machine... > > Mike Dave G4UGM From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat May 28 06:46:24 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 08:46:24 -0300 Subject: Mystery IBM processor In-Reply-To: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> References: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> Message-ID: <57498510.1020301@gmail.com> On 2016-05-28 6:51 AM, malcolm at avitech.com.au wrote: > Just wondering if anyone can help us to identify a rather large IBM > processor assembly. It weighs around 60 pounds. > > The frame has a P/N of 34F5089. The frame houses 9 modules, 6 of which are > installed. The module we removed for inspection has a P/N of 34F0615. > > > > Photos available here -> http://avitech.com.au/?p=561 > > > > Thanks, > > Malcolm. > > > The part number 34F5089 is for several models of 3090, is there any FRU numbers on the shipping case? The 6035847 I can see in the picture is not a valid part number. Paul From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat May 28 08:03:40 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 01:03:40 +1200 Subject: Mystery IBM processor In-Reply-To: <03ac01d1b8d5$c2a2d090$47e871b0$@gmail.com> References: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> <03ac01d1b8d5$c2a2d090$47e871b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 11:40 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross >> Sent: 28 May 2016 11:29 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Mystery IBM processor >> >> On May 28, 2016 9:51 PM, wrote: >> > >> > Just wondering if anyone can help us to identify a rather large IBM >> > processor assembly. It weighs around 60 pounds. >> > >> > The frame has a P/N of 34F5089. The frame houses 9 modules, 6 of which >> > are installed. The module we removed for inspection has a P/N of 34F0615. >> >> Definitely IBM mainframe. The individual square alloy lumps are what are >> called MCMs - Multi Chip Modules. Insides are dozens of individual ECL ICs. >> Water cooling heatsinks would have been bolted to the front side in life. >> Can't remember what IBM called the entire assembly. 1980s, probably a 3080 >> or 3090 but don't quote me on that. > > I believe the modules are called TCM's or Thermal Conduction Modules. It looks like a 3090 chip but I thought those were withdrawn before the date code of "90xx". > > I thought the ES/9000 follow on had a re-designed chip with multiple rows of pins like this... > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-IBM-9121-TCM-Thermal-Conduction-Module-ES-9000-Mainframe-Microprocessor-/182138577581 > > but when I look at the IBM web pages:- > > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP9000.html > > it says only the high end machines have the new TCM so I think it may be a TCM from an entry level ES/9000 machine... TCM! That's what I was looking for. If you think your collection is getting out of hand Jim Austin has *half* of a 3084.... shows how the CPU assembly fits into the machine: http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/fixed_pages/IBM3084.html Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 28 09:02:34 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 15:02:34 +0100 Subject: Mystery IBM processor In-Reply-To: References: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> <03ac01d1b8d5$c2a2d090$47e871b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03e001d1b8e9$95b93a10$c12bae30$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross > Sent: 28 May 2016 14:04 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Mystery IBM processor > > On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 11:40 PM, Dave Wade > wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike > >> Ross > >> Sent: 28 May 2016 11:29 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Mystery IBM processor > >> > >> On May 28, 2016 9:51 PM, wrote: > >> > > >> > Just wondering if anyone can help us to identify a rather large IBM > >> > processor assembly. It weighs around 60 pounds. > >> > > >> > The frame has a P/N of 34F5089. The frame houses 9 modules, 6 of > >> > which are installed. The module we removed for inspection has a P/N of > 34F0615. > >> > >> Definitely IBM mainframe. The individual square alloy lumps are what > >> are called MCMs - Multi Chip Modules. Insides are dozens of individual ECL > ICs. > >> Water cooling heatsinks would have been bolted to the front side in life. > >> Can't remember what IBM called the entire assembly. 1980s, probably a > >> 3080 or 3090 but don't quote me on that. > > > > I believe the modules are called TCM's or Thermal Conduction Modules. It > looks like a 3090 chip but I thought those were withdrawn before the date code > of "90xx". > > > > I thought the ES/9000 follow on had a re-designed chip with multiple rows of > pins like this... > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-IBM-9121-TCM-Thermal-Conduction- > Module-ES > > -9000-Mainframe-Microprocessor-/182138577581 > > > > but when I look at the IBM web pages:- > > > > http://www- > 03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP9000. > > html > > > > it says only the high end machines have the new TCM so I think it may be a > TCM from an entry level ES/9000 machine... > > TCM! That's what I was looking for. If you think your collection is getting out of > hand Jim Austin has *half* of a 3084.... shows how the CPU assembly fits into > the machine: > > http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/fixed_pages/IBM3084.html > The pricing is miss-leading. That price is taken from here:- https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP3084.html For Universities there was a standard discount of 40% so at most they paid was $5.22M In addition, it was common practice for IBM to loan Universities a new machine for evaluation. Typically, you could have it for a year so long as you paid the maintenance and software costs. At the end of a year you then had the option to buy, or return it. If you choose to buy it, it was by then of course, a year old and no longer a leading edge new machine... .. so you would actually pay the second hand price, less your 40% discount... As far as I know only one University in the UK sent one back, and that was Queens University, Belfast. Dave G4UGM > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From barythrin at gmail.com Sat May 28 11:06:36 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 11:06:36 -0500 Subject: Monster 6502 Message-ID: <8t4mph3osr9hbxshm654tvf9.1464451195018@email.android.com> That is incredibly awesome. ?Since childhood I've always wanted to either be a computer processor or see data flow. ?Closest i came was a visual memory editor i wrote using circles and vga (0-255) to represent the bytes. ?At least i could watch the computer keep track of time and found the keyboard buffer in dos.? Back on topic, what a great and educational creation by Eric.
-------- Original message --------
From: Al Kossow
Date:05/27/2016 10:15 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
Subject: Monster 6502
Here is a video of it running at Maker Faire http://makezine.com/2016/05/27/this-functioning-monster-6502-is-a-larger-than-life-version-of-the-iconic-microchip/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat May 28 11:18:11 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 09:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <9becf665-5652-3600-9124-7ab823f3e501@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201605280038.u4S0cON05898416@floodgap.com> <9becf665-5652-3600-9124-7ab823f3e501@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-05-27 8:38 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> You can hardly blame windows for the stupidity of people. This could also >>> happen w/ discreet stupid devices >> >> One word: Therac. >> > > Therac is not the same threat at all. What seems to be missing from the > process that leads to specifying Windows is, indeed, threat modelling. The > threat of a virus scanner disabling the machine is not the same as a virus > disabling the machine, and so on (a proper enumeration of threats would be > quite long). > > The point is that the threat model for a "discrete stupid device" is VERY > different from the threat model for Windows. Human error obviously appears in > both lists (and can be mitigated!) And these aren't the only 2 options, > either... > > I think we can all agree that when the outcomes are as bad as this, then the > engineering process was faulty. A virus scanner (or virus) is a very easily > foreseen problem. What I don't understand is why Windows is being used on these devices at all. It specifically states in the license that it's not to be used with life-critical systems or infrastructure (like nuclear plants). I wish I could find a reference - I can't recall where I read that... The funny thing is, I've been using Windows since Windows 95 and the only issues I've ever had with it were all self-inflicted. I've never understood all the hate it gets. (Well except for Windows ME and Windows 8.0 - those were shit-shows. :) ) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 28 11:22:06 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 09:22:06 -0700 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: <8t4mph3osr9hbxshm654tvf9.1464451195018@email.android.com> References: <8t4mph3osr9hbxshm654tvf9.1464451195018@email.android.com> Message-ID: <3601b981-25d3-395e-facf-eda162d9e3e2@bitsavers.org> On 5/28/16 9:06 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > That is incredibly awesome. The especially cool part is that it isn't static logic. The state is stored as charge on the gate, which is why there was a minimum clock speed on the NMOS 6502. As you slow the clock down, you can see the bits rot, and finger capacitance changes the behavior as you touch nodes. The lowest frequency the board can run at is a function of how clean the board is (minimizing resistance to ground on the gates). There is also a problem of how static sensitive the board with ultimately be. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat May 28 11:51:11 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 09:51:11 -0700 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <201605280038.u4S0cON05898416@floodgap.com> <9becf665-5652-3600-9124-7ab823f3e501@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <006d01d1b901$2436c4d0$6ca44e70$@net> > What I don't understand is why Windows is being used on these devices > at all. It specifically states in the license that it's not to be used > with life-critical systems or infrastructure (like nuclear plants). I > wish I could find a reference - I can't recall where I read that... Well, none of these systems are life critical. Even in the ars-technica article there is a ton of sensationalism. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat May 28 11:51:11 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 09:51:11 -0700 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006e01d1b901$27a9cb80$76fd6280$@net> > Here is a video of it running at Maker Faire > > http://makezine.com/2016/05/27/this-functioning-monster-6502-is-a- > larger-than-life-version-of-the-iconic-microchip/ > That is just beautiful. -Ali From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat May 28 12:07:37 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 13:07:37 -0400 Subject: Monster 6502 Message-ID: <137b82.2698ea1.447b2a59@aol.com> Absolutely Amazin' Eric! KUDOS! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 5/28/2016 9:51:25 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at ibm51xx.net writes: http://makezine.com/2016/05/27/this-functioning-monster-6502-is-a- > larger-than-life-version-of-the-iconic-microchip/ From spacewar at gmail.com Sat May 28 12:31:39 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 11:31:39 -0600 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Corey Cohen wrote: > I can't wait to buy one!!! I have a spare Replica-1 just waiting to hook up to a Monster 6502. It doesn't run at full speed. It presently runs in the tens to low hundreds of kHz. If a Replica-1 can be run slower than normal, that might work. Other common 6502-based micros, such as the Apple II or Atari 400/800 will not work at low speed due to inherent timing requirements related to video generation and DRAM refresh. > Just need to wire up a single step switch and this thing will be awesome!!! If you wire single-stepping using the RDY line, that should work, though it will only single-step read cycles, not write cycles. You can't single-step the actual clock because it is dynamic logic. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 28 14:01:55 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 19:01:55 +0000 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> , Message-ID: Eric had it at the Maker Faire. He'd covered it with a antistatic plexiglass but it still had some static sensitivity. He was exercising it with ( I think ) a R Pi. He'd been depending on the gate capacitance only. I told him that to get it a little more reliable, he would need to increase the capacitance a little for the floating nets. It will cost a little on power but there isn't that high a toggle on all of the nets that are dynamic. 10 to 20 pf should make it more stable. He needed a separate body attachment for the transmission gates. Al he could find were multi transistor packs. Most all of the important buss and status locations have LEDs on them. The layout is close as practical to the original silicon. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2016 10:31:39 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Monster 6502 On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Corey Cohen wrote: > I can't wait to buy one!!! I have a spare Replica-1 just waiting to hook up to a Monster 6502. It doesn't run at full speed. It presently runs in the tens to low hundreds of kHz. If a Replica-1 can be run slower than normal, that might work. Other common 6502-based micros, such as the Apple II or Atari 400/800 will not work at low speed due to inherent timing requirements related to video generation and DRAM refresh. > Just need to wire up a single step switch and this thing will be awesome!!! If you wire single-stepping using the RDY line, that should work, though it will only single-step read cycles, not write cycles. You can't single-step the actual clock because it is dynamic logic. From applecorey at optonline.net Sat May 28 14:55:06 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 15:55:06 -0400 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> Message-ID: <6E67F6FB-76C6-4ACE-AFE8-B03653400C06@optonline.net> > On May 28, 2016, at 1:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Corey Cohen wrote: >> I can't wait to buy one!!! I have a spare Replica-1 just waiting to hook up to a Monster 6502. > > It doesn't run at full speed. It presently runs in the tens to low > hundreds of kHz. If a Replica-1 can be run slower than normal, that > might work. Other common 6502-based micros, such as the Apple II or > Atari 400/800 will not work at low speed due to inherent timing > requirements related to video generation and DRAM refresh. > >> Just need to wire up a single step switch and this thing will be awesome!!! > > If you wire single-stepping using the RDY line, that should work, > though it will only single-step read cycles, not write cycles. > > You can't single-step the actual clock because it is dynamic logic. The replica-1 uses a propellor chip for video and static ram so I don't think it's that critical to timing. From applecorey at optonline.net Sat May 28 14:55:06 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 15:55:06 -0400 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> Message-ID: <6E67F6FB-76C6-4ACE-AFE8-B03653400C06@optonline.net> > On May 28, 2016, at 1:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Corey Cohen wrote: >> I can't wait to buy one!!! I have a spare Replica-1 just waiting to hook up to a Monster 6502. > > It doesn't run at full speed. It presently runs in the tens to low > hundreds of kHz. If a Replica-1 can be run slower than normal, that > might work. Other common 6502-based micros, such as the Apple II or > Atari 400/800 will not work at low speed due to inherent timing > requirements related to video generation and DRAM refresh. > >> Just need to wire up a single step switch and this thing will be awesome!!! > > If you wire single-stepping using the RDY line, that should work, > though it will only single-step read cycles, not write cycles. > > You can't single-step the actual clock because it is dynamic logic. The replica-1 uses a propellor chip for video and static ram so I don't think it's that critical to timing. From useddec at gmail.com Sat May 28 15:29:28 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 15:29:28 -0500 Subject: Set of mystery DEC boards: who can help me identifying these? In-Reply-To: <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: the 50xxxxx number with the letter behind it could be a dec board number. The 50 class could be the artwork, and the letter the board rev. If that is the case, there is probably a 54- class on the other side of the board one number higher. The 54 number is the board with components, and can be tracked down, but not easily. They could have been renamed by another company. Any other print in the etch? Any pictures? On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:51 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > Hello list, > > I recently got a bunch of boards from somebody who was either not able to > tell me where they were from. > The boards seem to be unibus-based with numbers starting with X. I neither > came across these before, nor could find any information in the web about > it: > > Type, P/N , Description > X029, 5013132B, AUC interconnect > X022, 5012197C, unibuswindow > X021, 5012181C, CD ROM control (did that ever exist for unibus?) > > X020, 5012180B, data path > > > > Two 16K mos memory modules M7847 came with the set. > > > No backplane, unfortunately. > Any hints about the type of system and application these boards were for? > Many thanks for any pointers. > > Wish a nice weekend to all of you, > Pierre > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: > http://www.digitalheritage.de > From martin at shackspace.de Sat May 28 15:42:29 2016 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 22:42:29 +0200 Subject: TI Professional Computer (TIPC) Service Manual? Message-ID: <20160528204229.GA25286@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> I wanted to reactivate a TI Professional Computer (TIPC) and all I get some seconds after powering it on is the message "** system error ** 0004" and a beep, lasting for about 2 seconds. The TIPC is an early, not really compatible clone of the IBM PC 5150. I wonder if I need to do some reengineering and/or disassembling or if there is a service manual out there. greetings, Martin -- Martin Peters martin at shackspace.de From lists at loomcom.com Sat May 28 16:15:08 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 16:15:08 -0500 Subject: AT&T 5620 (Blit/DMD) software Message-ID: <20160528211508.GA11293@loomcom.com> Hey folks, I recently picked up an AT&T 5620 terminal, the WE32K version of the Blit, and I've been tracking down software to run on my 3B2. It looks like there are two separate packages which provide the 'layers' windowing system: 1. A package named "AT&T Windowing Utilities", on one floppy disk. 2. A package named "DMD Core Utilities 2.0", on a set of three floppy disks. The DMD Core Utilities set comes with a lot of demos and source code. It installs 'layers' as /usr/dmd/bin/layers. The one-disk AT&T Windowing Utilities has no demos, and installs 'layers' as /usr/bin/layers. Can anyone elaborate on the difference between these two? Are they both appropriate to use with the 5620, and should I favor the DMD Core Utilities over the AT&T Windowing Utilities? Or are they both needed? Confused and lacking documentation, -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat May 28 16:37:42 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 17:37:42 -0400 Subject: PC/AT "power good" problems Message-ID: <60CE547C-09CC-438F-A181-99F535615D57@verizon.net> All ? I pulled my old PC/AT off the shelf to see if I could get Windows 1 running on it (since I just located the Windows 1.04 SDK which I have running in Bochs). It worked when shelved years ago, but it unfortunately suffered some case damage from a leaky battery. No damage to the mobo or cards thankfully. I replaced the battery with a 4-AA pack. Basically, the PC won?t come out of reset. I tested the power supply with a load tester specifically for PC power supplies and it reports power_good and all voltages look good on a meter. So far, so good. I dug out my ISA POST diagnostics card which also has a PG tester in it. This reports no_PG but I do see the reset pulse on the bus. Not sure why one would report OK and one not. I have a spare generic power supply (which also tests good using the same tester) and produces the same result. I have no cards installed but I tried it with floppy/hard drives both connected or not connected. I traced the PG signal from the power supply through the 82284 clock driver/ready interface chip and the PG is definitely there (transitioning L->H on power-on) and RESET is transitioning H->L. Any recommendations on where to go from here? Does anyone have an extra PC/AT motherboard they would be willing to part with? As an aside, would this have been a typical development machine? AT was introduced in August 1984 and Windows 1.04 was released in 1987 so I?m guessing probably. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat May 28 18:35:16 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 23:35:16 +0000 Subject: FFS - Fujitsu Sylistic, Toshiba TLCS 900L Development board Message-ID: I do not have the pen for the Stylistic. Its 386, I have booted a BSD / Xwindow environment on it, works. The Toshiba is a thru hole board with a prototyping area. Includes c compiler, assembler and the CMX RTOS on 3 1/4 floppies, power supplies, cables, from Softaid. Randy From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sat May 28 20:04:06 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 22:04:06 -0300 Subject: PC/AT "power good" problems In-Reply-To: <60CE547C-09CC-438F-A181-99F535615D57@verizon.net> References: <60CE547C-09CC-438F-A181-99F535615D57@verizon.net> Message-ID: Put a 10 or 22 uf on the reset connector Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 28/05/2016 18:38, "Richard Cini" escreveu: > All ? > > > > I pulled my old PC/AT off the shelf to see if I could get Windows 1 > running on it (since I just located the Windows 1.04 SDK which I have > running in Bochs). It worked when shelved years ago, but it unfortunately > suffered some case damage from a leaky battery. No damage to the mobo or > cards thankfully. I replaced the battery with a 4-AA pack. > > > > Basically, the PC won?t come out of reset. I tested the power supply with > a load tester specifically for PC power supplies and it reports power_good > and all voltages look good on a meter. So far, so good. I dug out my ISA > POST diagnostics card which also has a PG tester in it. This reports no_PG > but I do see the reset pulse on the bus. Not sure why one would report OK > and one not. > > > > I have a spare generic power supply (which also tests good using the same > tester) and produces the same result. I have no cards installed but I tried > it with floppy/hard drives both connected or not connected. > > > > I traced the PG signal from the power supply through the 82284 clock > driver/ready interface chip and the PG is definitely there (transitioning > L->H on power-on) and RESET is transitioning H->L. > > > > Any recommendations on where to go from here? Does anyone > have an extra PC/AT motherboard they would be willing to part with? > > > > As an aside, would this have been a typical development machine? AT was > introduced in August 1984 and Windows 1.04 was released in 1987 so I?m > guessing probably. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Rich > > > > -- > > Rich Cini > > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini > > http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat May 28 20:19:59 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 20:19:59 -0500 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: <6E67F6FB-76C6-4ACE-AFE8-B03653400C06@optonline.net> References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> <6E67F6FB-76C6-4ACE-AFE8-B03653400C06@optonline.net> Message-ID: @Eric, All, Light a candle for those in the dark.. If the min. clock speed is dictated by the ability of the gates to hold a charge, as the bits rot away as charge drains (someone said "minimize resistance to ground", but I believe they meant "maximize"?) , then what is limiting the max. clock speed? Is it just basic PCB stuff, like trace inductance, mutual / parasitic capacitance, etc? Or are there other, more critical factors? I can't imagine propagation delays could matter at these slow speeds.. requiring meandering of traces and so forth. On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: > > > On May 28, 2016, at 1:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > >> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Corey Cohen > wrote: > >> I can't wait to buy one!!! I have a spare Replica-1 just waiting to > hook up to a Monster 6502. > > > > It doesn't run at full speed. It presently runs in the tens to low > > hundreds of kHz. If a Replica-1 can be run slower than normal, that > > might work. Other common 6502-based micros, such as the Apple II or > > Atari 400/800 will not work at low speed due to inherent timing > > requirements related to video generation and DRAM refresh. > > > >> Just need to wire up a single step switch and this thing will be > awesome!!! > > > > If you wire single-stepping using the RDY line, that should work, > > though it will only single-step read cycles, not write cycles. > > > > You can't single-step the actual clock because it is dynamic logic. > > The replica-1 uses a propellor chip for video and static ram so I don't > think it's that critical to timing. > From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat May 28 20:22:54 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 20:22:54 -0500 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> <6E67F6FB-76C6-4ACE-AFE8-B03653400C06@optonline.net> Message-ID: Whoops, sent too soon.. Could someone also clarify what is meant by "gates" in this sense? Are we talking about the gates (G) of a FET, as in Gate, Drain and Source - or are we referring to the composite logic gates (NAND, etc.), built up of multiple bipolar - or MOS - transistors? On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 8:19 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > @Eric, All, > > Light a candle for those in the dark.. > > If the min. clock speed is dictated by the ability of the gates to hold a > charge, as the bits rot away as charge drains (someone said "minimize > resistance to ground", but I believe they meant "maximize"?) , then what is > limiting the max. clock speed? > > Is it just basic PCB stuff, like trace inductance, mutual / parasitic > capacitance, etc? Or are there other, more critical factors? I can't > imagine propagation delays could matter at these slow speeds.. requiring > meandering of traces and so forth. > > On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Corey Cohen > wrote: > >> >> > On May 28, 2016, at 1:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> > >> >> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Corey Cohen >> wrote: >> >> I can't wait to buy one!!! I have a spare Replica-1 just waiting to >> hook up to a Monster 6502. >> > >> > It doesn't run at full speed. It presently runs in the tens to low >> > hundreds of kHz. If a Replica-1 can be run slower than normal, that >> > might work. Other common 6502-based micros, such as the Apple II or >> > Atari 400/800 will not work at low speed due to inherent timing >> > requirements related to video generation and DRAM refresh. >> > >> >> Just need to wire up a single step switch and this thing will be >> awesome!!! >> > >> > If you wire single-stepping using the RDY line, that should work, >> > though it will only single-step read cycles, not write cycles. >> > >> > You can't single-step the actual clock because it is dynamic logic. >> >> The replica-1 uses a propellor chip for video and static ram so I don't >> think it's that critical to timing. >> > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 28 20:49:41 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 18:49:41 -0700 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> <6E67F6FB-76C6-4ACE-AFE8-B03653400C06@optonline.net> Message-ID: <84BD87AB-13B9-4C44-9555-FE40D8CC5AB9@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-28, at 6:22 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Could someone also clarify what is meant by "gates" in this sense? Are we > talking about the gates (G) of a FET, as in Gate, Drain and Source - or are > we referring to the composite logic gates (NAND, etc.), built up of > multiple bipolar - or MOS - transistors? Yes, they're talking FET gates, the internal registers would operate under the same basic principle as DRAM does. Other early microprocs used dynamic registers, I forget which, perhaps others can list them. Far from the first time a processor had dynamic registers. I've been told that the IBM 709 used inductive (rather than capacitive) storage for the main registers. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat May 28 21:12:38 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 21:12:38 -0500 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: <84BD87AB-13B9-4C44-9555-FE40D8CC5AB9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> <6E67F6FB-76C6-4ACE-AFE8-B03653400C06@optonline.net> <84BD87AB-13B9-4C44-9555-FE40D8CC5AB9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: So what's the reasoning behind using gate capacitance (or inductance) to store the bit state? It would seem obvious that setting a bi-stable hi or lo would be a much more reliable method of saving the state. Is it a matter of power consumption, or switching speed, or both? On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-May-28, at 6:22 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > Could someone also clarify what is meant by "gates" in this sense? Are we > > talking about the gates (G) of a FET, as in Gate, Drain and Source - or > are > > we referring to the composite logic gates (NAND, etc.), built up of > > multiple bipolar - or MOS - transistors? > > Yes, they're talking FET gates, the internal registers would operate under > the same basic principle as DRAM does. > > Other early microprocs used dynamic registers, I forget which, perhaps > others can list them. > > Far from the first time a processor had dynamic registers. > I've been told that the IBM 709 used inductive (rather than capacitive) > storage for the main registers. From derschjo at gmail.com Sat May 28 21:15:17 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 19:15:17 -0700 Subject: AT&T 5620 (Blit/DMD) software In-Reply-To: <20160528211508.GA11293@loomcom.com> References: <20160528211508.GA11293@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <574A50B5.3020503@gmail.com> On 5/28/16 2:15 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hey folks, > > I recently picked up an AT&T 5620 terminal, the WE32K version of the > Blit, and I've been tracking down software to run on my 3B2. > > It looks like there are two separate packages which provide the > 'layers' windowing system: > > 1. A package named "AT&T Windowing Utilities", on one floppy disk. > > 2. A package named "DMD Core Utilities 2.0", on a set of three floppy > disks. > > The DMD Core Utilities set comes with a lot of demos and source code. > It installs 'layers' as /usr/dmd/bin/layers. > > The one-disk AT&T Windowing Utilities has no demos, and installs > 'layers' as /usr/bin/layers. > > Can anyone elaborate on the difference between these two? Are > they both appropriate to use with the 5620, and should I favor > the DMD Core Utilities over the AT&T Windowing Utilities? Or > are they both needed? > > Confused and lacking documentation, > > -Seth It's been a little while, and my 3B2's not currently powered up, but here's what I remember: You only need one of the two of #1 and #2, but having both doesn't hurt. The DMD Core Utilities is newer and has more fun stuff, and I assume the kernel driver is more up-to-date. They're both appropriate for the 5620. I also have a set of Application and Font disks that go with the Core disk set you have. I've put all the Blit stuff I've managed to track down at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/blit/software (If you happen to have anything I don't have there, let me know...) - Josh From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat May 28 21:15:47 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 21:15:47 -0500 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> <014601d1b85a$5cc1b0a0$164511e0$@gmail.com> <0A75D5AC-E864-49B4-9BB2-F49AC2A550D0@orthanc.ca> <004b01d1b863$b2759b20$1760d160$@net> Message-ID: > > > Make sure you tell him that "cloud" is just a fancy term for "somebody > else's computer". :) > Or as I like to call it, "Socialized Computing". Except that unlike civic socialism, you don't +necessarily+ run out of somebody else's compute cycles.. ;-) On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 11:04 AM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 27 May 2016, Ali wrote: > > I'd like him to understand why things work they way they do, that the cloud >> is not a magical thing, and that at a certain level an >> iPad=PC=5110=System/360. >> >> Make sure you tell him that "cloud" is just a fancy term for "somebody > else's computer". :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 28 21:16:12 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 19:16:12 -0700 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> <6E67F6FB-76C6-4ACE-AFE8-B03653400C06@optonline.net> <84BD87AB-13B9-4C44-9555-FE40D8CC5AB9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Fewer transistors, hence less die space. Same reason DRAM is more dense (hence larger) than SRAM. On 2016-May-28, at 7:12 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > So what's the reasoning behind using gate capacitance (or inductance) to > store the bit state? It would seem obvious that setting a bi-stable hi or > lo would be a much more reliable method of saving the state. > > Is it a matter of power consumption, or switching speed, or both? > > On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> On 2016-May-28, at 6:22 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >>> >>> Could someone also clarify what is meant by "gates" in this sense? Are we >>> talking about the gates (G) of a FET, as in Gate, Drain and Source - or >> are >>> we referring to the composite logic gates (NAND, etc.), built up of >>> multiple bipolar - or MOS - transistors? >> >> Yes, they're talking FET gates, the internal registers would operate under >> the same basic principle as DRAM does. >> >> Other early microprocs used dynamic registers, I forget which, perhaps >> others can list them. >> >> Far from the first time a processor had dynamic registers. >> I've been told that the IBM 709 used inductive (rather than capacitive) >> storage for the main registers. From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 28 21:17:41 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 19:17:41 -0700 Subject: PC/AT "power good" problems In-Reply-To: <60CE547C-09CC-438F-A181-99F535615D57@verizon.net> References: <60CE547C-09CC-438F-A181-99F535615D57@verizon.net> Message-ID: <574A5145.4040308@sydex.com> On 05/28/2016 02:37 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > Basically, the PC won?t come out of reset. I tested the power supply > with a load tester specifically for PC power supplies and it reports > power_good and all voltages look good on a meter. So far, so good. I > dug out my ISA POST diagnostics card which also has a PG tester in > it. This reports no_PG but I do see the reset pulse on the bus. Not > sure why one would report OK and one not. Exactly what do you mean by "won't come out of reset", Rich? How can you tell? Is RESET on the ISA bus always active? Bear in mind that the PC AT BIOS during POST goes through some rather arcane protected-mode memory tests, using the CMOS "why did I get here" byte when coming out of reset. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat May 28 21:18:28 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 21:18:28 -0500 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> <6E67F6FB-76C6-4ACE-AFE8-B03653400C06@optonline.net> <84BD87AB-13B9-4C44-9555-FE40D8CC5AB9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Oh sure.. because I always thought that SRAM was intrinsically faster than DRAM, all other factors held constant? On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Fewer transistors, hence less die space. > > Same reason DRAM is more dense (hence larger) than SRAM. > > > On 2016-May-28, at 7:12 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > So what's the reasoning behind using gate capacitance (or inductance) to > > store the bit state? It would seem obvious that setting a bi-stable hi or > > lo would be a much more reliable method of saving the state. > > > > Is it a matter of power consumption, or switching speed, or both? > > > > On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Brent Hilpert > wrote: > > > >> On 2016-May-28, at 6:22 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >>> > >>> Could someone also clarify what is meant by "gates" in this sense? Are > we > >>> talking about the gates (G) of a FET, as in Gate, Drain and Source - or > >> are > >>> we referring to the composite logic gates (NAND, etc.), built up of > >>> multiple bipolar - or MOS - transistors? > >> > >> Yes, they're talking FET gates, the internal registers would operate > under > >> the same basic principle as DRAM does. > >> > >> Other early microprocs used dynamic registers, I forget which, perhaps > >> others can list them. > >> > >> Far from the first time a processor had dynamic registers. > >> I've been told that the IBM 709 used inductive (rather than capacitive) > >> storage for the main registers. > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 28 21:30:06 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 19:30:06 -0700 Subject: PC/AT "power good" problems In-Reply-To: <574A5145.4040308@sydex.com> References: <60CE547C-09CC-438F-A181-99F535615D57@verizon.net> <574A5145.4040308@sydex.com> Message-ID: <574A542E.7000607@sydex.com> On 05/28/2016 07:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Bear in mind that the PC AT BIOS during POST goes through some > rather arcane protected-mode memory tests, using the CMOS "why did I > get here" byte when coming out of reset. ...which reminds me--check the status of the "programmed reset" line coming from the keyboard controller. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 28 21:44:22 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 22:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Monster 6502 Message-ID: <20160529024422.9448F18C13A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: drlegendre > Gawd, what a lovely piece of work that man hath wrought! I love the term he invented for it: "dis-integrated circuit"! :-) Good FAQ page here: http://www.monster6502.com/ My favourite entry: "Q: Are you nuts? A: Probably." Clearly a person after our own hearts! :-) Noel From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun May 29 02:53:31 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 02:53:31 -0500 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: References: <0A03CA8080004661AF3C785EBB58D98A@deskjara> Message-ID: @ All I'm working on a deal for a batch of these.. so hold on to your hats / wallets for a little while, and we should have something to work with. On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 8:18 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Ethan Dicks > wrote: > > Thanks for your offer of assistance. That seems to be a very good way > > to do it. Write me back off-line and I'm willing to throw money at > > you for a dozen belts or so and take what I don't need to VCFmw this > > Fall (if folks on the list don't snap them up first). I'm sure > > there'll be folks in Chicago who want C2N belts. > > For sure, especially with our Commodore-heavy attendance. I know the > cassette drive in my PET2001 is shot. For the C2N, I just grab them > off the big pile until I find a working one :) > > j > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun May 29 03:48:42 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 09:48:42 +0100 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: <84BD87AB-13B9-4C44-9555-FE40D8CC5AB9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <57491017.6090302@snarc.net> <6E67F6FB-76C6-4ACE-AFE8-B03653400C06@optonline.net> <84BD87AB-13B9-4C44-9555-FE40D8CC5AB9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <019f01d1b986$e7a1ec80$b6e5c580$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert > Sent: 29 May 2016 02:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Monster 6502 > > On 2016-May-28, at 6:22 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > Could someone also clarify what is meant by "gates" in this sense? Are > > we talking about the gates (G) of a FET, as in Gate, Drain and Source > > - or are we referring to the composite logic gates (NAND, etc.), built > > up of multiple bipolar - or MOS - transistors? > > Yes, they're talking FET gates, the internal registers would operate under the > same basic principle as DRAM does. > > Other early microprocs used dynamic registers, I forget which, perhaps others > can list them. > > Far from the first time a processor had dynamic registers. > I've been told that the IBM 709 used inductive (rather than capacitive) storage > for the main registers. Many early computers used "Dynamic" store for their registers. Certainly the Manchester Baby and Mk1 computers used Williams Tubes which need continual refresh. Not sure about the IBM 701 which used also used Williams Tubes for Main Store. Many early computers used either Williams Tubes or Delay Line type store, even for main registers. Pegasus was built like this.... Dave From Malcolm at switchlegal.com.au Sat May 28 17:45:12 2016 From: Malcolm at switchlegal.com.au (Malcolm Macleod) Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 22:45:12 +0000 Subject: Mystery IBM processor In-Reply-To: References: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> Message-ID: Mike / Dave / Paul, Thanks for the responses. It does look a lot like the processor photo on Jim Austin's IBM 3084 page. I can't see any FRU numbers on any of the modules, so this is probably as far as we can go in chasing it down for the time being. I might be able to get some more clues from the markings on the shipping case. Malcolm. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun May 29 04:13:07 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 05:13:07 -0400 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <20160529024422.9448F18C13A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On May 29, 2016 2:44 PM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > > From: drlegendre > > > Gawd, what a lovely piece of work that man hath wrought! > > I love the term he invented for it: "dis-integrated circuit"! :-) > > > Good FAQ page here: > > http://www.monster6502.com/ > > My favourite entry: > > "Q: Are you nuts? > A: Probably." > > Clearly a person after our own hearts! :-) > > Noel I'm sure I read of someone who was implementing an entire CPU as discrete components on an even larger size... there were racks of the thing; it took up most of a room. But I can't find the link.... Mike From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun May 29 06:16:15 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 07:16:15 -0400 Subject: PC/AT "power good" problems In-Reply-To: <574A542E.7000607@sydex.com> References: <60CE547C-09CC-438F-A181-99F535615D57@verizon.net> <574A5145.4040308@sydex.com> <574A542E.7000607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <64521C50-42C4-4B23-B7B4-C8E55D01C87B@verizon.net> Chuck ? My wording was probably less than precise, but ?never comes out of reset? means that it never POSTs. Nothing on the screen. No cursor. No boot message. No BASIC. Keyboard does reset though (I see the three LEDs blink on, then off). I watched for a good 5 minutes before giving up. It?s been a long time since I worked with this machine but I?m pretty sure there is a sign-on banner or something. For comparison, I pulled my old original PC (64k/256k mobo) with expansion unit and 10mb HD and it took an excruciatingly long time to boot, but it did have a blinking underline cursor on the screen while it thought about booting. Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 On 5/28/16, 10:30 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis" wrote: >On 05/28/2016 07:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Bear in mind that the PC AT BIOS during POST goes through some >> rather arcane protected-mode memory tests, using the CMOS "why did I >> get here" byte when coming out of reset. > >...which reminds me--check the status of the "programmed reset" line >coming from the keyboard controller. > >--Chuck > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 29 09:24:04 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 14:24:04 +0000 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <20160529024422.9448F18C13A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> , Message-ID: DRam is technically no slower to read than static. It is the house keeping functions that cost time. Typically the floating nets are designed to hold data for over 2 milliseconds. At todays higher speed processors, the refresh time is hardly noticed. As for the processors of this time, the primary concern was cost. Not so much silicon size but yield. Bigger ICs had lower yields, raising cost. Today yields are much better. Also, in the days of the 6502, complementary CMOS was not only expensive, it was slow. Making extra logic and gates required more power as every data inversion required a pull up resistance in single process designs. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Mike Ross Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 2:13:07 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Monster 6502 On May 29, 2016 2:44 PM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > > From: drlegendre > > > Gawd, what a lovely piece of work that man hath wrought! > > I love the term he invented for it: "dis-integrated circuit"! :-) > > > Good FAQ page here: > > http://www.monster6502.com/ > > My favourite entry: > > "Q: Are you nuts? > A: Probably." > > Clearly a person after our own hearts! :-) > > Noel I'm sure I read of someone who was implementing an entire CPU as discrete components on an even larger size... there were racks of the thing; it took up most of a room. But I can't find the link.... Mike From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 29 09:30:18 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 14:30:18 +0000 Subject: PC/AT "power good" problems In-Reply-To: <64521C50-42C4-4B23-B7B4-C8E55D01C87B@verizon.net> References: <60CE547C-09CC-438F-A181-99F535615D57@verizon.net> <574A5145.4040308@sydex.com> <574A542E.7000607@sydex.com>, <64521C50-42C4-4B23-B7B4-C8E55D01C87B@verizon.net> Message-ID: Power to a load tester is not the same as power in a system. It is likely that one of the other voltages, other than 5V is being loaded down with a shorted tantalum capacitor in the system. I doubt there is a problem with the supply. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Richard Cini Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 4:16:15 AM To: CCTalk Subject: Re: PC/AT "power good" problems Chuck ? My wording was probably less than precise, but ?never comes out of reset? means that it never POSTs. Nothing on the screen. No cursor. No boot message. No BASIC. Keyboard does reset though (I see the three LEDs blink on, then off). I watched for a good 5 minutes before giving up. It?s been a long time since I worked with this machine but I?m pretty sure there is a sign-on banner or something. For comparison, I pulled my old original PC (64k/256k mobo) with expansion unit and 10mb HD and it took an excruciatingly long time to boot, but it did have a blinking underline cursor on the screen while it thought about booting. Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 On 5/28/16, 10:30 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis" wrote: >On 05/28/2016 07:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Bear in mind that the PC AT BIOS during POST goes through some >> rather arcane protected-mode memory tests, using the CMOS "why did I >> get here" byte when coming out of reset. > >...which reminds me--check the status of the "programmed reset" line >coming from the keyboard controller. > >--Chuck > From radiotest at juno.com Sun May 29 09:48:30 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 10:48:30 -0400 Subject: PC/AT "power good" problems In-Reply-To: References: <60CE547C-09CC-438F-A181-99F535615D57@verizon.net> <574A5145.4040308@sydex.com> <574A542E.7000607@sydex.com> <64521C50-42C4-4B23-B7B4-C8E55D01C87B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160529104528.03ff66c0@juno.com> At 10:30 AM 5/29/2016, Dwight wrote: >Power to a load tester is not the same as power in a system. That is why I never use a load tester. I built a system with a set of adaptors that lets me measure voltage and current, and check for ripple and noise with an oscilloscope, for each output of a power supply while it is supplying the target system. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun May 29 10:05:17 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 11:05:17 -0400 Subject: PC/AT "power good" problems In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160529104528.03ff66c0@juno.com> References: <60CE547C-09CC-438F-A181-99F535615D57@verizon.net> <574A5145.4040308@sydex.com> <574A542E.7000607@sydex.com> <64521C50-42C4-4B23-B7B4-C8E55D01C87B@verizon.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20160529104528.03ff66c0@juno.com> Message-ID: <56D6F5E9-E3CD-4698-BD7C-5A3135AA3DB3@verizon.net> Thanks guys. Looks like some detailed work to do on the mobo. Anyone want to buy a lost tester cheap? Sent from my iPhone > On May 29, 2016, at 10:48 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > > At 10:30 AM 5/29/2016, Dwight wrote: > >> Power to a load tester is not the same as power in a system. > > That is why I never use a load tester. I built a system with a set of adaptors that lets me measure voltage and current, and check for ripple and noise with an oscilloscope, for each output of a power supply while it is supplying the target system. > > Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 29 10:18:13 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 08:18:13 -0700 Subject: AT&T 5620 (Blit/DMD) software In-Reply-To: <20160528211508.GA11293@loomcom.com> References: <20160528211508.GA11293@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <28772ccf-a8f6-ea4b-c860-c85225b7e1be@bitsavers.org> "Shattered" has been working on this. I assume you know about his SIMH simulator and how he's getting frustrated with nothing being available. http://forums.bannister.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=105737&Searchpage=1&Main=7894&Words=shattered&Search=true#Post105737 On 5/28/16 2:15 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hey folks, > > I recently picked up an AT&T 5620 terminal, the WE32K version of the > Blit, and I've been tracking down software to run on my 3B2. > > It looks like there are two separate packages which provide the > 'layers' windowing system: > > 1. A package named "AT&T Windowing Utilities", on one floppy disk. > > 2. A package named "DMD Core Utilities 2.0", on a set of three floppy > disks. > > The DMD Core Utilities set comes with a lot of demos and source code. > It installs 'layers' as /usr/dmd/bin/layers. > > The one-disk AT&T Windowing Utilities has no demos, and installs > 'layers' as /usr/bin/layers. > > Can anyone elaborate on the difference between these two? Are > they both appropriate to use with the 5620, and should I favor > the DMD Core Utilities over the AT&T Windowing Utilities? Or > are they both needed? > > Confused and lacking documentation, > > -Seth > From lproven at gmail.com Sun May 29 10:35:10 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 17:35:10 +0200 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <20160529024422.9448F18C13A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 29 May 2016 at 11:13, Mike Ross wrote: > I'm sure I read of someone who was implementing an entire CPU as discrete > components on an even larger size... there were racks of the thing; it took > up most of a room. > > But I can't find the link.... http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/ ...? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From elson at pico-systems.com Sun May 29 10:38:22 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 10:38:22 -0500 Subject: Mystery IBM processor In-Reply-To: References: <00d201d1b8c6$84cfc7a0$8e6f56e0$@avitech.com.au> Message-ID: <574B0CEE.3090609@pico-systems.com> On 05/28/2016 05:45 PM, Malcolm Macleod wrote: > Mike / Dave / Paul, > > Thanks for the responses. It does look a lot like the processor photo on Jim Austin's IBM 3084 page. > > Wow, this has to have cost IBM $250K or more. Maybe MUCH more, as it is the WHOLE processor system. I wonder if anybody is still running any of these and needs spares? Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun May 29 10:42:30 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 10:42:30 -0500 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <20160529024422.9448F18C13A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <574B0DE6.6040305@pico-systems.com> On 05/29/2016 04:13 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > I'm sure I read of someone who was implementing an entire > CPU as discrete components on an even larger size... there > were racks of the thing; it took up most of a room. But I > can't find the link.... Mike There's a guy in Germany who did one, using all SMT parts. Here's another (at least I think this one is different): http://www.megaprocessor.com/homebrew.html I did this Google search and found pages of links to such projects : homebrew discrete transistor CPU Jon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun May 29 10:48:43 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 08:48:43 -0700 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <20160529024422.9448F18C13A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <21158A50-875F-4DE2-84CA-777F6D73D454@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-29, at 2:13 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > On May 29, 2016 2:44 PM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: >> >>> From: drlegendre >> >>> Gawd, what a lovely piece of work that man hath wrought! >> >> I love the term he invented for it: "dis-integrated circuit"! :-) >> >> >> Good FAQ page here: >> >> http://www.monster6502.com/ >> >> My favourite entry: >> >> "Q: Are you nuts? >> A: Probably." >> >> Clearly a person after our own hearts! :-) >> >> Noel > > I'm sure I read of someone who was implementing an entire CPU as discrete > components on an even larger size... there were racks of the thing; it took > up most of a room. > > But I can't find the link.... This one?: http://megaprocessor.com/index.html From lionelj at labyrinth.net.au Sun May 29 06:35:26 2016 From: lionelj at labyrinth.net.au (Lionel Johnson) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 21:35:26 +1000 Subject: Front panel switches - what did they do? In-Reply-To: References: <5746D393.3050502@labyrinth.net.au> Message-ID: <574AD3FE.1090900@labyrinth.net.au> On 28/05/2016 11:27 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Thanks Lionel, > > You just helped me start a new list! > > Hi Paul, and others You have stimulated me to drag out a couple more useful programs - basic stuff, I used them to demo to students, and get them started. Also the practical side to check console printers and screens. I have retired, and left these systems behind, but they were marvellous gear. CONSOLE OUTPUT PROGRAM ---------------------- 012737 000104 177566 A: MOV #104, OUTPUT 012700 100000 MOV #100000, R0 005300 B: DEC R0 001376 BNE B 000770 BR A THIS PROGRAM OUTPUTS A CHAR TO THE CONSOLE. THE REGISTER CAN BE CHANGED TO TEST ANOTHER DEVICE. KEYBOARD ECHO TEST ------------------ 105737 177560 LOOP: TSTB @#177560 100375 BPL LOOP 013700 177562 MOV INPUT,R0 010037 177566 MOV R0,OUTPUT 000770 BR LOOP THIS PROGRAM WAITS FOR A KEY DOWN, THEN OUTPUTS IT BACK TO THE TERMINAL PRINT BUFFER. FULL DISPLAY EXERCISER ---------------------- 013700 177562 START: MOV @#177562,R0 012701 000124 MOV #80,R1 105737 177564 A: TSTB @#177564 100375 BPL A 010037 177566 MOV R0,@#177566 005301 DEC R1 001371 BNE A 105737 177564 B: TSTB @#177564 100375 BPL B 012737 000015 177566 MOV #15,@#177566 105737 177564 C: TSTB @#177564 100375 BPL C 012737 000012 177566 MOV #12,@#177566 000750 BR START THIS PROGRAM MONITORS KBD IN AND REPEATS THE CHARACTER TO THE SCREEN UNTIL THE NEXT KEY IS PRESSED. TO TEST LA36 ETC LINE 2 READS 012701 000204 MOV #132, R1 TO DISABLE CACHE - SLOWS PROGRAM DOWN ------------------------------------- 012737 000014 177746 MOV #14, CCR 000137 XXXXXX JMP @ A ( XXXXXX IS A: ADDRESS) Lionel. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 29 11:13:24 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 09:13:24 -0700 Subject: TI Professional Computer (TIPC) Service Manual? In-Reply-To: <20160528204229.GA25286@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <20160528204229.GA25286@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <5cba7229-d9c2-ed77-7c47-52f702b64486@bitsavers.org> On 5/28/16 1:42 PM, Martin Peters wrote: > The TIPC is an early, not really compatible clone of the IBM PC 5150. I > wonder if I need to do some reengineering and/or disassembling or if > there is a service manual out there. > I bought a copy last year. It doesn't look like I've scanned it yet but I have seen it withing the last 6 months, so I'll try to find it. From mattislind at gmail.com Sun May 29 12:03:49 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 19:03:49 +0200 Subject: TU58 yet one more time. Message-ID: I have been fiddling with a TU58-EX device, dual TU58 drives in a small box. The capstans is replaced. I used silicone tubing which I glued on and then sanded down a bit. PVC tubing in a size that would fit seems to be unavailable in Sweden. The two capstans were a little bit different in diameter at first. Drive one closer to 17 mm but drive zero around 16.5mm. Drive zero read 5 of 8 tapes (two more tapes had belt breakage). One tape gave "Invalid Directory" in RT11 the two other gave "Error reading directory". On drive one just one tape was readable. So the decision was to get closer to the nominal 5/8" (which I read was the OD in a post by Tony Duell). With both drives at 16mm drive zero still read the same amount of tapes and drive one read the same tapes plus one more which was not readable on drive zero. Highly annoying. So I decided to read more on the TU58. The spec says that the bit time is 41.2 us. When I measure I get reading of between 42 and 44 us. (Yes I should have measured before trimming the capstans). So now the tape is too slow. Although the OD is slightly above the nominal. Is silicone tubing too soft? Having been working on a project to recover a tape from a Zilog S8000 machine together with AJ (http://mightyframe.blogspot.se/) I just thought that it might be possible to read the TU58 and HP DC100 tapes with some other hardware doing post processing in a regular Linux box. Would it be possible to use a Floppy Tape (QIC-117) tape drive to read them? It appears that the tapes are not identical in size. A DC1000 is 0.25 " while the DC100 is 0.15". The capstan position would also differ. Are there other physical differences that I am not aware off? Since the TU58 drive is not able to format a tape it could be useful to also write a new tape with TU58 format. But I guess that there are difference in coercivity between different tapes. I have read that Rik Bos successfully converted HP85 drives to take DC1000 tapes by modifying the capstan and changing the write current. Before I go ahead buying some old Colorado T1000 drive dirt cheap I just like to ask if this project is doomed because of whatever reason. /Mattis From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun May 29 12:23:06 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 10:23:06 -0700 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 Message-ID: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> I just acquired an NEC ProSpeed 386 portable from WeirdStuff. http://imgur.com/a/vUTvd The system boots fine off floppy, and after running the setup program?that can still be downloaded from NEC America?s FTP site!?I was able to boot DOS and Windows 3.11 from the internal HD that WeirdStuff didn?t think it had. The machine is actually quite zippy once booted too, it?s obviously a desktop replacement, it even has a goddamn mechanical keyboard! Unfortunately, there doesn?t seem to be all that much useful information about this system online. Does anyone have any pointers? What I?d like to do most is get into it and down to the motherboard, since the CMOS battery obviously needs replacing, and I could see whether there?s any damage that needs to be cleaned up. I tried to disassemble it this morning but unfortunately I couldn?t find any release latches and the plastic is old enough to be a little brittle so I didn?t want to work it too hard. As for what else I?ll do with it, I might consider replacing the drive with a larger one (or a larger CF card via an IDE/CF adaptor), adding the 8MB memory upgrade if I could ever find it, and adding an 80387 if I could ever find one and if there?s actually a socket for it. And if there?s any sort of network card for its weird-ass expansion slots of course I?d be all over that. I also expect the battery is quite sketchy at this point, being a discharged-for-decades NiCd. The system won?t boot without the battery pack attached though, so I?ll have to figure out how to bypass that. (I expect I can just install some sort of jumper at the battery port, or wire in a bypass.) And the system ports are obscured by the battery pack too. Nonetheless, not bad for well under the $60 sticker price when you consider that they also threw in the Griffin iMate I was also getting for that price! -- Chris From martin at shackspace.de Sun May 29 12:42:44 2016 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 19:42:44 +0200 Subject: TI Professional Computer (TIPC) Service Manual? In-Reply-To: <5cba7229-d9c2-ed77-7c47-52f702b64486@bitsavers.org> References: <20160528204229.GA25286@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <5cba7229-d9c2-ed77-7c47-52f702b64486@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20160529174244.GA2687@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Hi Al! Al Kossow: > > On 5/28/16 1:42 PM, Martin Peters wrote: > > > The TIPC is an early, not really compatible clone of the IBM PC 5150. I > > wonder if I need to do some reengineering and/or disassembling or if > > there is a service manual out there. > > I bought a copy last year. It doesn't look like I've scanned it yet but I have > seen it withing the last 6 months, so I'll try to find it. Thanks. Technical Documentation of the TIPC seems to be rare. greetings, Martin -- Martin Peters martin at shackspace.de From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 29 13:10:38 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 11:10:38 -0700 Subject: TU58 yet one more time. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/29/16 10:03 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Would it be possible to use a Floppy Tape (QIC-117) tape drive to read > them? No. The heads are movable on floppy tapes, and the format is completely different. If you send me your address, I can send you a chunk of tubing that Brad Parker and I have used to repair the drive wheels. From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun May 29 13:34:52 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 11:34:52 -0700 Subject: TU58 yet one more time. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My first attempt to use silicone tubing to repair my TU58 rollers was also unsuccessful. Maybe the material I used is too soft? Your experience suggests to me that I should hook up an oscilloscope to measure bit timing, and then adjust the roller composition and diameter to arrive close to the correct bit length. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 29 14:00:17 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 12:00:17 -0700 Subject: TU58 yet one more time. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53610ec9-9aa4-0fb2-24a9-b11108ef8b7f@bitsavers.org> On 5/29/16 11:34 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > My first attempt to use silicone tubing to repair my TU58 rollers was also unsuccessful. Maybe the material I used is too soft? Your experience suggests to me that I should hook up an oscilloscope to measure bit timing, and then adjust the roller composition and diameter to arrive close to the correct bit length. > > dug this up from the cctlk archive -- http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23485 It just says "norprene A-60-F" the outside. It measures 3/8" I.D. I think other's have said 7/16" i.d., but I could not find that. I know I bought it from US Plastics and it's A-60-F. You have to buy 10' but its not very expensive. -brad From mattislind at gmail.com Sun May 29 15:05:41 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 22:05:41 +0200 Subject: TU58 yet one more time. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-05-29 20:10 GMT+02:00 Al Kossow : > > > On 5/29/16 10:03 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > Would it be possible to use a Floppy Tape (QIC-117) tape drive to read > > them? > > No. The heads are movable on floppy tapes, and the format is completely > different. > Yes. I am aware of that. But that also means that the head can be moved into the spot where the information is recorded. My quick reading of the QIC-117 spec give that the one control the drive with a quite weird interface consisting of the STEP, TRACK ZERO and INDEX lines. The READ DATA is supposed to be the actual flux transitions. Likewise is WRITE DATA. What is not yet clear to me is whether that the QIC-117 drive is rather dumb and leaves most work to the FDC or if it includes a lot of logic to handle the reading process. http://www.qic.org/html/standards/11x.x/qic117j.pdf The QIC36 drive that was used to recover the information stored on the Zilog S8000 tapes is completely stupid. The read data just reflected the flux transitions which AJ recorded using a logic analyzer so that it was possible to decode the MFM data stream in software. The tracks of course also differed since the QIC36 drive was 9 track while the DEI drive used for recording the S8000 tapes used four (fixed) heads. But nevertheless it was possible to recover the entire tape thanks to the circuitry that AJ devised to control the head position. Using a more modern SCSI drive it will not be possible to read these tapes since they only handle GCR encoding (as does QIC02 drives) Could this kind of operation be done with a QIC-117. I.e. is the drive stupid enough? Reading more of the spec may indicate that "segment" concept might be the culprit that makes it non-feasible. It could be that the drive keeps track of the segments somehow. Of course there is always the possibility of "hacking" the drive. But then it would help with schematics which is probably not available for these quite "modern" things. All input appreciated! > If you send me your address, I can send you a chunk of tubing that Brad > Parker and I > have used to repair the drive wheels. > That would be very nice. Send you a message off-list. /Mattis From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun May 29 15:06:01 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 16:06:01 -0400 Subject: TU58 yet one more time. In-Reply-To: <53610ec9-9aa4-0fb2-24a9-b11108ef8b7f@bitsavers.org> References: <53610ec9-9aa4-0fb2-24a9-b11108ef8b7f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0d0b01d1b9e5$863cb5b0$92b62110$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:00 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TU58 yet one more time. On 5/29/16 11:34 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > My first attempt to use silicone tubing to repair my TU58 rollers was also unsuccessful. Maybe the material I used is too soft? Your experience suggests to me that I should hook up an oscilloscope to measure bit timing, and then adjust the roller composition and diameter to arrive close to the correct bit length. > > dug this up from the cctlk archive -- http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23485 It just says "norprene A-60-F" the outside. It measures 3/8" I.D. I think other's have said 7/16" i.d., but I could not find that. I know I bought it from US Plastics and it's A-60-F. You have to buy 10' but its not very expensive. -brad ----- "A-60-F" would be here? http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23886 $26.95 for 10 foot length. Ouch! 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD x 1/8" Wall TygonR A-60-F Hot Food & Beverage Tubing ----- From mattislind at gmail.com Sun May 29 15:12:55 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 22:12:55 +0200 Subject: TU58 yet one more time. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-05-29 20:34 GMT+02:00 Mark J. Blair : > My first attempt to use silicone tubing to repair my TU58 rollers was also > unsuccessful. Maybe the material I used is too soft? Your experience > suggests to me that I should hook up an oscilloscope to measure bit timing, > and then adjust the roller composition and diameter to arrive close to the > correct bit length. > It might be too soft. But the capstan doesn't look to flat when the tape is inserted. So I am not sure. Pin 5 on the 8085 has the read data and pin 7 is the strobe data. Another question is how sensitive it is to speed variations. Apparently it is. Or my tapes are bad. But I cannot tell for sure since I have no working reference. The encoding scheme is rather simple. And decoding is done by some analogue electronics doing integration. Since it is a fixed capacitor value used it can be problematic. /Mattis > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From lists at loomcom.com Sun May 29 15:44:27 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 15:44:27 -0500 Subject: AT&T 5620 (Blit/DMD) software In-Reply-To: <20160528211508.GA11293@loomcom.com> References: <20160528211508.GA11293@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20160529204427.GA17737@loomcom.com> If I may follow up to my own post here, I've done some experiments, and made some discoveries. I first installed "DMD Core Utilities 2.0". The demo programs all work beautifully in stand-alone mode (not running under Layers). But when I try to fire up /usr/dmd/bin/layers, the 3B2 crashes _hard_. It does not like the version of 'layers' installed by DMD Core. So, I installed "AT&T Windowing Utilities" from SVR3.1, and confirmed that both of them can live together side-by-side, since they write their files to different locations. I was able to run /usr/bin/layers without any problem. All of the programs, utilities, and demos installed by "DMD Core Utilities 2.0" function fine under the version of layers installed by "AT&T Windowing Utilities". See: http://imgur.com/QlNOIBf So, that's my current setup. I run /usr/bin/layers, and then run the apps from /usr/dmd/bin -Seth From lists at loomcom.com Sun May 29 15:45:48 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 15:45:48 -0500 Subject: AT&T 5620 (Blit/DMD) software In-Reply-To: <28772ccf-a8f6-ea4b-c860-c85225b7e1be@bitsavers.org> References: <20160528211508.GA11293@loomcom.com> <28772ccf-a8f6-ea4b-c860-c85225b7e1be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20160529204548.GB17737@loomcom.com> * On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 08:18:13AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > "Shattered" has been working on this. I assume you know about his SIMH simulator > and how he's getting frustrated with nothing being available. Absolutely, he's been contributing patches back to my 3B2 simulator project. His work is very impressive, I hope we can figure out how to get the 3B2 simulator working in a state where we can actually run layers on it. -Seth From wulfman at wulfman.com Sun May 29 18:29:37 2016 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 16:29:37 -0700 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view Message-ID: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 29 19:02:09 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 17:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 May 2016, wulfman wrote: > http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view > -- > The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named > addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, > copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by > the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender > immediately and delete this e-mail. Did you have anything to say about it? Or are you just dumping a URL on us? From js at cimmeri.com Sun May 29 19:15:59 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 19:15:59 -0500 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <574B863F.80201@cimmeri.com> On 5/29/2016 7:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 29 May 2016, wulfman wrote: >> http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view >> >> -- >> The contents of this e-mail and any >> attachments are intended solely for >> the use of the named addressee(s) and >> may contain confidential and/or >> privileged information. Any >> unauthorized use, copying, >> disclosure, or distribution of the >> contents of this e-mail is strictly >> prohibited by the sender and may be >> unlawful. If you are not the intended >> recipient, please notify the sender >> immediately and delete this e-mail. > > Did you have anything to say about it? > Or are you just dumping a URL on us? That might be confidential, Fred. Wulf: this link would have worked as well : "http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century" Tangent: is it true as written that *all* "teletypes speak 5-bit ITA2 code "? - J. From wulfman at wulfman.com Sun May 29 19:20:43 2016 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 17:20:43 -0700 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <244b6fad-a9db-3578-6125-482c43d8eb5a@wulfman.com> I figured some of you might have had an interest. Excuse me if i was wrong. On 5/29/2016 5:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 29 May 2016, wulfman wrote: >> http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view >> >> -- >> The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely >> for the use of the named >> addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged >> information. Any unauthorized use, >> copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail >> is strictly prohibited by >> the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended >> recipient, please notify the sender >> immediately and delete this e-mail. > > Did you have anything to say about it? > Or are you just dumping a URL on us? > > > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun May 29 19:24:46 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 12:24:46 +1200 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: <574B0DE6.6040305@pico-systems.com> References: <20160529024422.9448F18C13A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574B0DE6.6040305@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 3:42 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/29/2016 04:13 AM, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> I'm sure I read of someone who was implementing an entire CPU as discrete >> components on an even larger size... there were racks of the thing; it took >> up most of a room. But I can't find the link.... Mike > > There's a guy in Germany who did one, using all SMT parts. Here's another > (at least I think this one is different): > http://www.megaprocessor.com/homebrew.html > > I did this Google search and found pages of links to such projects : > homebrew discrete transistor CPU Megaprocessor! That's the one I was thinking of. Barking mad. Thanks! Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From cctalk at snarc.net Sun May 29 19:31:53 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 20:31:53 -0400 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> >> http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view > > Did you have anything to say about it? > Or are you just dumping a URL on us? Oh come on. He didn't do anything wrong. The link is clearly on-topic and directly relevant to our hobby. Yeesh. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 29 19:30:54 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 17:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: <244b6fad-a9db-3578-6125-482c43d8eb5a@wulfman.com> References: <244b6fad-a9db-3578-6125-482c43d8eb5a@wulfman.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 May 2016, wulfman wrote: > I figured some of you might have had an interest. Excuse me if i was wrong. WITH a sentence or so of commentary. An email with NO content other than a URL and an impersonal signature, but no personal description, and with a subject line of the URL looks more like a malware offer than a mention of interesting content. We need SOMETHING to indicate that it is from YOU, rather than from crypto-locker. (and not just "Click on this!") Do you trust Thunderbird to reliably block those kinds of emails? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 29 19:48:01 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 17:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> References: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> Message-ID: >>> http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view >> Did you have anything to say about it? >> Or are you just dumping a URL on us? On Sun, 29 May 2016, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Oh come on. He didn't do anything wrong. The link is clearly on-topic and > directly relevant to our hobby. > Yeesh. 1) It was formatted as a malware offer, not as a discussion item, with NO apparent human generated content. Am I the only one here who receives emails that consist of malware links? 2) I am not reading my email in a web browser. It is not much difficulty to copy the URL into a browser, but I'd like a mention of what it is before being told to "go there". It only takes a few words to explain why we would be interested in it, and some sign that it is from our friend, not a bot generated spoof to get people to a hijacked site. (ransomware upped the stakes on such things) From wulfman at wulfman.com Sun May 29 20:17:24 2016 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 18:17:24 -0700 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: References: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> Message-ID: You either have a stick up your ass, are too stupid to know the difference between a malware link and a real link OR both. Now go back to your worrying about the 0.00001% of links that contain malware. On 5/29/2016 5:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view >>>> >>> Did you have anything to say about it? >>> Or are you just dumping a URL on us? > > On Sun, 29 May 2016, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Oh come on. He didn't do anything wrong. The link is clearly on-topic >> and directly relevant to our hobby. >> Yeesh. > > 1) It was formatted as a malware offer, not as a discussion item, > with NO apparent human generated content. > Am I the only one here who receives emails that consist of malware links? > > > 2) I am not reading my email in a web browser. It is not much > difficulty to copy the URL into a browser, but I'd like a mention of > what it is before being told to "go there". > > > It only takes a few words to explain why we would be interested in it, > and some sign that it is from our friend, not a bot generated spoof to > get people to a hijacked site. (ransomware upped the stakes on such > things) > > > > > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 29 20:43:05 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 18:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: References: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 May 2016, wulfman wrote: > You either have a stick up your ass, are too stupid to know the > difference between a malware link and a real link OR > both. > Now go back to your worrying about the 0.00001% of links that contain > malware. I'm glad to hear it. OK, initially, I was glad that you've never encountered it. But, your current rude behavior changes that, to being glad that you have that perception of it. From jws at jwsss.com Sun May 29 20:52:19 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 18:52:19 -0700 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century In-Reply-To: <574B863F.80201@cimmeri.com> References: <574B863F.80201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 5/29/2016 5:15 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > Wulf: this link would have worked as well : > "http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century" > > > Tangent: is it true as written that *all* "teletypes speak 5-bit ITA2 > code "? I actually need to figure if I can use such a setup to be a terminal for systems with current loop I/O. I have a Microdata 1600 with an integrated TTY port for the console device, and I'd love to have an adapter which had USB serial (and for what it's worth, actual RS232 serial levels to a connector. This is from what I see attempting to run a TTY from a system. As to the second, the tangent the author puts in is wrong, I don't know if an ASR33 can run 5 level easily, but all I've ever used are ascii 8 bit machines. thanks Jim From wulfman at wulfman.com Sun May 29 20:54:46 2016 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 18:54:46 -0700 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: References: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> Message-ID: I did not start the fire. On 5/29/2016 6:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 29 May 2016, wulfman wrote: >> You either have a stick up your ass, are too stupid to know the >> difference between a malware link and a real link OR >> both. >> Now go back to your worrying about the 0.00001% of links that contain >> malware. > > I'm glad to hear it. > > OK, initially, I was glad that you've never encountered it. > But, your current rude behavior changes that, to being glad > that you have that perception of it. > > > > > > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun May 29 21:03:26 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 22:03:26 -0400 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?... Message-ID: <68570e.7e042005.447cf96e@aol.com> I will comment... make anything talk to a tty. The designer is wonderful. Keep him encouraged. I like to see people actually doing something ! We are implementing thee boards in some of our in house displays at the SMECC museum and several offsite journalism displays incorporating teletype machines.. Eric implemented several features we suggested that we needed for our mission. Glad to see the designer getting some credit. ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 5/29/2016 5:32:57 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: On Sun, 29 May 2016, wulfman wrote: > I figured some of you might have had an interest. Excuse me if i was wrong. WITH a sentence or so of commentary. An email with NO content other than a URL and an impersonal signature, but no personal description, and with a subject line of the URL looks more like a malware offer than a mention of interesting content. We need SOMETHING to indicate that it is from YOU, rather than from crypto-locker. (and not just "Click on this!") Do you trust Thunderbird to reliably block those kinds of emails? From isking at uw.edu Sun May 29 21:06:46 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 19:06:46 -0700 Subject: Finally! Opened my TeleVideo TPC-1 Message-ID: Hi all, A while back I asked if anyone knew how to open the case of this early luggable, and there were crickets. Well, I pulled it out today with the intention of poking and prodding, and I magically got it to open! There's a top piece that is fastened to the front bezel with two apparent screws. But it is also snapped in to the rear cover in a manner that is not readily apparent or discernable. If one removes two screws at either end of the rear cover, the rear piece will cantilever back ever so slightly, and the latching of the plastic pieces will separate without damage. The power supply assembly is fastened to the bottom of the case with a couple of screws that come up from below/outside, so I'd already removed those. It should be relatively simple to rotate the assembly so that I can remove the screws holding the PCB to a backpiece, providing access to the PCB so I can replace the 30+ year old electrolytics. Given the symptoms, this seems like the most likely root casuse.... -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun May 29 21:08:42 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 22:08:42 -0400 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century Message-ID: <685eff.59374201.447cfaaa@aol.com> it converts codes send and recv... 5 to 8 8 to 5? can preprogram messages in stand alone mode and more... when I see things like this and giant 6502 my faith in things is renewed.... ed In a message dated 5/29/2016 6:52:04 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jws at jwsss.com writes: This is from what I see attempting to run a TTY from a system. As to the second, the tangent the author puts in is wrong, I don't know if an ASR33 can run 5 level easily, but all I've ever used are ascii 8 bit machines. thanks Jim From elson at pico-systems.com Sun May 29 21:09:22 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 21:09:22 -0500 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century In-Reply-To: References: <574B863F.80201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <574BA0D2.7070209@pico-systems.com> On 05/29/2016 08:52 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 5/29/2016 5:15 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> >> Wulf: this link would have worked as well : >> "http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century" >> >> >> >> Tangent: is it true as written that *all* "teletypes >> speak 5-bit ITA2 code >> "? No, certainly not. There are ASCII (7-bit) and other varsions that probably spoke EIA code. > I actually need to figure if I can use such a setup to be > a terminal for systems with current loop I/O. I have a > Microdata 1600 with an integrated TTY port for the console > device, and I'd love to have an adapter which had USB > serial (and for what it's worth, actual RS232 serial > levels to a connector. > > This is from what I see attempting to run a TTY from a > system. > > As to the second, the tangent the author puts in is wrong, > I don't know if an ASR33 can run 5 level easily, but all > I've ever used are ascii 8 bit machines. > ASR33 is an 8-bit machine. Jon From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun May 29 21:23:06 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 21:23:06 -0500 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: References: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> Message-ID: brilliant :) thanks On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 8:54 PM, wulfman wrote: > I did not start the fire. > > > On 5/29/2016 6:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Sun, 29 May 2016, wulfman wrote: > >> You either have a stick up your ass, are too stupid to know the > >> difference between a malware link and a real link OR > >> both. > >> Now go back to your worrying about the 0.00001% of links that contain > >> malware. > > > > I'm glad to hear it. > > > > OK, initially, I was glad that you've never encountered it. > > But, your current rude behavior changes that, to being glad > > that you have that perception of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for > the use of the named > addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. > Any unauthorized use, > copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is > strictly prohibited by > the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, > please notify the sender > immediately and delete this e-mail. > > From jason at textfiles.com Sun May 29 21:28:54 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 22:28:54 -0400 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> References: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> Message-ID: If rockets ran on butthurt, we be colonizing Mars. And I'd have some awesome candidates for the first round. On May 30, 2016 09:32, "Evan Koblentz" wrote: > >>> http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view >>> >> >> Did you have anything to say about it? >> Or are you just dumping a URL on us? >> > > Oh come on. He didn't do anything wrong. The link is clearly on-topic and > directly relevant to our hobby. > > Yeesh. > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 29 22:02:25 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 23:02:25 -0400 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: References: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> Message-ID: > You either have a stick up your ass, are too stupid to know the > difference between a malware link and a real link OR > both. There are a lot of ways that malware links can slip through. My eyes are getting old and failing, so that some m's and look like n's. or There is a smudge on my screen, so that some k's look like h's. or Its 4:30 AM, I am plowing through email, and all the characters are starting to blur. Malware authors count on some of these situations coming up, with some smart people with stickless asses falling into them, clicking, and...well, maybe someone's day gets ruined. Remember, malware authors expect very low yields, so even my somewhat outlandish examples might be fruitful. Basically, posting lone URL's like you did is really bad form in this age - even on lists of trusted friends (which this is not!). I can total respect Fred's issue. In the future, please state the subject clearly. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 29 22:14:16 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 20:14:16 -0700 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century In-Reply-To: <574BA0D2.7070209@pico-systems.com> References: <574B863F.80201@cimmeri.com> <574BA0D2.7070209@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <574BB008.3020008@sydex.com> On 05/29/2016 07:09 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > ASR33 is an 8-bit machine. The 5-level machine is a 32. Used lots for sending Telex and whatnot back in the day. Conversion between 7-level and 5-level is a bit messy; the LTRS/FIGS thing. --Chuck From jason at textfiles.com Sun May 29 22:38:48 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 23:38:48 -0400 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: References: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> Message-ID: Special shout-out to the two well-meaning buttercups who emailed me off list to mansplain me about how to conduct myself in an arena that appears to have the emotional stability of a brain-damaged toddler. On May 30, 2016 11:28, "Jason Scott" wrote: > If rockets ran on butthurt, we be colonizing Mars. And I'd have some > awesome candidates for the first round. > On May 30, 2016 09:32, "Evan Koblentz" wrote: > >> >>>> http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view >>>> >>> >>> Did you have anything to say about it? >>> Or are you just dumping a URL on us? >>> >> >> Oh come on. He didn't do anything wrong. The link is clearly on-topic and >> directly relevant to our hobby. >> >> Yeesh. >> > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 29 22:46:34 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 22:46:34 -0500 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: References: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> Message-ID: <000401d1ba25$dcda8600$968f9200$@classiccmp.org> Top posting because.... It takes two (at least) to start it, and you certainly played your part. While it is not "forbidden" to just post a URL without any explanation, it would be a good idea to include something with it so that we know if we want to click on it or not. Otherwise, it's going to just be skipped by a lot of people that might have had an interest but weren't interested in going there blindly. Regardless of if one agrees with fred or not, I think he stated his concerns without being rude. Let's keep the namecalling and rudeness out of it. Nuff said. J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of wulfman Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 8:55 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm _source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28H ack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view I did not start the fire. On 5/29/2016 6:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 29 May 2016, wulfman wrote: >> You either have a stick up your ass, are too stupid to know the >> difference between a malware link and a real link OR both. >> Now go back to your worrying about the 0.00001% of links that contain >> malware. > > I'm glad to hear it. > > OK, initially, I was glad that you've never encountered it. > But, your current rude behavior changes that, to being glad that you > have that perception of it. > > > > > > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 29 22:49:44 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 22:49:44 -0500 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: References: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> Message-ID: <000501d1ba26$4dfcc5f0$e9f651d0$@classiccmp.org> Keep it friendly. The last few posts on this do not comply. Last warning.... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason Scott Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 10:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view Special shout-out to the two well-meaning buttercups who emailed me off list to mansplain me about how to conduct myself in an arena that appears to have the emotional stability of a brain-damaged toddler. On May 30, 2016 11:28, "Jason Scott" wrote: From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun May 29 23:04:30 2016 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 21:04:30 -0700 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <5748FFAE.80705@pico-systems.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <5748FFAE.80705@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <42cb861d-dc75-2727-44a2-24cedb8056b2@snowmoose.com> On 5/27/16 7:17 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > It hasn't > seen battle yet (and I hope it doesn't have to) but I'm a little > worried > about the fact that it's beaten (badly) in simulations and > exercises with > much older fighter aircraft with much more "primitive" tech, including > Russian aircraft, too. > > > Oh, just to add more, the F35 is not a "fighter" despite its > designation. It is an air superiority platform that is never supposed > to get into a dogfight. It is supposed to be in a network of planes, > and agressors will be shot down by missile from 50 miles away. The > F22 is supposed to be the dogfighter. > And it wasn't supposed to even be the F-35. It was a misstatement at the announcement and should have been F-24. alan From dave at 661.org Sun May 29 23:15:38 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 04:15:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Xerox Star install floppies Message-ID: Over the past six months or so, I've been selling install floppies for the Xerox 8010 Star. I had no idea if I had a full set or not. I'd just put together a set of as many unique floppies that I could find from my stash. Then last week I was asked if I had a full set. This person then stated that Al Kossow might or might not have a full set. In any case, it's not on Bitsavers. Al expressed interest in a set that I offered a couple months ago, but he never followed up on that. So, would someone please confirm the existance of a full set of install floppy images for the Xerox 8010 Star somewhere? The floppies I have left are these: ViewPoint 1.1 (file check) ViewPoint 1.1 (essential applications) ViewPoint 1.1.6 Common Software ViewPoint 1.1.2 Local RS232C Communications Access -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun May 29 23:29:40 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 00:29:40 -0400 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century In-Reply-To: <574B863F.80201@cimmeri.com> References: <574B863F.80201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 29 May 2016 at 20:15, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Tangent: is it true as written that *all* "teletypes speak 5-bit ITA2 code > "? > As Ed, Jon, and Chuck said; no not *all* teletypes speak 5-bit code. The "most common" machines in the classic computing community of the Model 33 family (ASR and KSR) speak 7-bit ASCII 1963 with a parity bit (either marking parity, or even parity; usually). The 5-bit equivalent to the Model 33 is the Model 32, as Chuck mentioned. Similarly, there are other ASCII machines, the Model 35 family, for one is absolutely beautiful; it's based on the mechanisms of the older (and tank-like) Model 28 family. In fact if I recall what was said on the Greenkeys list, the Model 35 parts all have the same names as their corresponding Model 28 parts, except with an '8' in the name. But ask an actual expert. Also, just to be slightly nit-picky, many 5-bit code speaking Teletype machines made in/for the US speak the similar, but not quite the same USTTY code. It only differs in the figure shift, where the bell and apostrophe characters swap places (bell is on J in the standard, S in USTTY), WRU (figure shift of D) is replaced with a normal printing character (dollar sign), and the "national use" characters of F, G, and H are defined as the excalamation mark, ampersand, and number sign. The remaining figure shift characters are completely compatible (and the letter shift doesn't differ at all). Hence why in the ACPs that deal with teletype communications the acceptable characters for use include only those which are held common between the two versions of ITA2 and USTTY. And also why the bell code for Flash precedence messages is JJJJJSSSSS (so that no matter if the message ends up in Europe or the US, the machine's bell will ring). (See: ACP-127(G), paragraph 137.e.) Also, being I'm a process engineering student: The article makes it seem like current loop signalling is a weird dead interface standard; it's not. Current loop isn't that confusing a thing to deal with. We still use it for whenever we need to have electrical signalling that is more noise resistant or goes a longer distance than voltage level signalling. Problem is that current loop converters cost way too damn much. Also, unlike the generic "RS-232C on one end, 20mA current loop on the other" converter boxes that are dumb as a bag of hammers, the board in question has some active electronics for conversion "stuff"; which makes the board infinitely more cool. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 30 01:26:42 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 08:26:42 +0200 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: <574B0DE6.6040305@pico-systems.com> References: <20160529024422.9448F18C13A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574B0DE6.6040305@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20160530062641.GB28201@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 10:42:30AM -0500, Jon Elson wrote: > > There's a guy in Germany who did one, using all SMT parts. Could it be Dieters MT15 you are thinking of? Quite inspiring project: http://6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15.htm http://6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15_cpu_front.jpg /P From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon May 30 03:10:48 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 09:10:48 +0100 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: <000401d1ba25$dcda8600$968f9200$@classiccmp.org> References: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> <000401d1ba25$dcda8600$968f9200$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <019501d1ba4a$c6a42f10$53ec8d30$@gmail.com> I think it depends on if you are already aware of the existence and purpose of the hackaday web site. Having had one of my projects published there I am aware of the site and wouldn't hesitate to click that link. On the other hand, if I wasn't aware of the hackaday site I might think differently, the word "hackaday" also has unsavoury connotations to some, so an explanation would have been helpful... .. lastly the latest bunch of malware I have seen post realistic looking documents with real phone numbers from real people, horrible.... Dave Wade G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: 30 May 2016 04:47 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st- > century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed% > 3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+ > view > > Top posting because.... > > It takes two (at least) to start it, and you certainly played your part. > > While it is not "forbidden" to just post a URL without any explanation, it would > be a good idea to include something with it so that we know if we want to click > on it or not. Otherwise, it's going to just be skipped by a lot of people that > might have had an interest but weren't interested in going there blindly. > > Regardless of if one agrees with fred or not, I think he stated his concerns > without being rude. Let's keep the namecalling and rudeness out of it. > > Nuff said. > > J > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of wulfman > Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 8:55 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: > http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st- > century/?utm > _source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday > %2FLgoM+%28H > ack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view > > I did not start the fire. > > > On 5/29/2016 6:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Sun, 29 May 2016, wulfman wrote: > >> You either have a stick up your ass, are too stupid to know the > >> difference between a malware link and a real link OR both. > >> Now go back to your worrying about the 0.00001% of links that contain > >> malware. > > > > I'm glad to hear it. > > > > OK, initially, I was glad that you've never encountered it. > > But, your current rude behavior changes that, to being glad that you > > have that perception of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use > of the named > addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any > unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e- > mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the > intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. > From useddec at gmail.com Mon May 30 03:46:05 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 03:46:05 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <42cb861d-dc75-2727-44a2-24cedb8056b2@snowmoose.com> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <5748FFAE.80705@pico-systems.com> <42cb861d-dc75-2727-44a2-24cedb8056b2@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: The AR12 wasn't supposed to be called a SR71. Somebody messed that one up too. On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > On 5/27/16 7:17 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> >> It hasn't >> seen battle yet (and I hope it doesn't have to) but I'm a little >> worried >> about the fact that it's beaten (badly) in simulations and exercises >> with >> much older fighter aircraft with much more "primitive" tech, including >> Russian aircraft, too. >> >> >> Oh, just to add more, the F35 is not a "fighter" despite its >> designation. It is an air superiority platform that is never supposed to >> get into a dogfight. It is supposed to be in a network of planes, and >> agressors will be shot down by missile from 50 miles away. The F22 is >> supposed to be the dogfighter. >> >> > And it wasn't supposed to even be the F-35. It was a misstatement at the > announcement and should have been F-24. > > alan > > > From jsw at ieee.org Mon May 30 08:49:04 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 08:49:04 -0500 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <5748FFAE.80705@pico-systems.com> <42cb861d-dc75-2727-44a2-24cedb8056b2@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <05BB4ABC-2896-4701-AB53-35595F940DA2@ieee.org> The fellow was named ?Lyndon Baines Johnson??. but then again SR-71 sounds better than RS-71. The Blackbird is definitely one cool airplane, so perhaps LBJ got it right. > On May 30, 2016, at 3:46 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > The AR12 wasn't supposed to be called a SR71. Somebody messed that one up > too. > > On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > >> On 5/27/16 7:17 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >>> >>> It hasn't >>> seen battle yet (and I hope it doesn't have to) but I'm a little >>> worried >>> about the fact that it's beaten (badly) in simulations and exercises >>> with >>> much older fighter aircraft with much more "primitive" tech, including >>> Russian aircraft, too. >>> >>> >>> Oh, just to add more, the F35 is not a "fighter" despite its >>> designation. It is an air superiority platform that is never supposed to >>> get into a dogfight. It is supposed to be in a network of planes, and >>> agressors will be shot down by missile from 50 miles away. The F22 is >>> supposed to be the dogfighter. >>> >>> >> And it wasn't supposed to even be the F-35. It was a misstatement at the >> announcement and should have been F-24. >> >> alan >> >> >> From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 30 09:01:06 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 16:01:06 +0200 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 29 May 2016 at 19:23, Chris Hanson wrote: > Nonetheless, not bad for well under the $60 sticker price when you consider that they also threw in the Griffin iMate I was also getting for that price! Indeed! My iMate cost more than that on its own. :-( But it does please me that, right now, I'm using an Apple Extended II keyboard from 1990 on my 2011 Mac mini. :-) It feels more authentically "Mac-like" this way, somehow. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 30 09:54:34 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 07:54:34 -0700 Subject: Xerox Star install floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: there is not a full set. Bear and I are trying to put one together from what he got and what exists from other sources unfortunately, we didn't connect when you offered all of the ones you had in 2009, and Bear didn't win all of the auctions the last four would be helpful, and they should go to Bear On 5/29/16 9:15 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Over the past six months or so, I've been selling install floppies for the Xerox 8010 Star. I had no idea if I had a > full set or not. I'd just put together a set of as many unique floppies that I could find from my stash. Then last week > I was asked if I had a full set. This person then stated that Al Kossow might or might not have a full set. In any > case, it's not on Bitsavers. Al expressed interest in a set that I offered a couple months ago, but he never followed > up on that. So, would someone please confirm the existance of a full set of install floppy images for the Xerox 8010 > Star somewhere? > > The floppies I have left are these: > > ViewPoint 1.1 (file check) > ViewPoint 1.1 (essential applications) > ViewPoint 1.1.6 Common Software > ViewPoint 1.1.2 Local RS232C Communications Access > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 30 10:52:07 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 08:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Typeface resembling 1403 In-Reply-To: References: <574B863F.80201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Jeff Kellem created a typeface similar to that of the 1403. https://1403.slantedhall.com/ http://6equj5.surge.sh/ It is not free. He does not claim that it matches, "inspired by". From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 30 11:42:00 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 09:42:00 -0700 Subject: Xerox Star install floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/30/16 7:54 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > there is not a full set. Bear and I are trying to put one together from what he got and > what exists from other sources > Specifically, if someone should come across this message in the future, as of May, 2016, there is no generally available full copy of 8010 Viewpoint versions 1 or 2. Copies of the original Star OS 5.0 and 5.2 exist, as well as copies of Viewpoint 1 and 2 for the 6085. It should be possible to reconstruct 8010 Viewpoint from the 6085 disks, if the 8010 unique parts of the OS (Pilot) can be found. Some of this may be in the development environment (XDE) disks for the 8010. I've sent some messages out to people who may have copies, but I've not heard anything back. I think CHM was in the middle of moving everything offsite for the exhibit construction in 2009, so I had my mind on dealing with that. Normally, I'm really careful in trying to reconstruct the software history of the D-machines. From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 30 12:51:48 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 19:51:48 +0200 Subject: Tektronix 4404 servcie manuals needed In-Reply-To: References: <121320090850.5777.4B24AAD8000475350000169122243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <3495ad8c-bcd5-79f1-2e1a-863ed10b0cf0@bitsavers.org> <0e0cf845-0be0-904b-a402-2cbffedab879@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: 2016-05-23 18:57 GMT+02:00 Al Kossow : > > > On 5/23/16 9:55 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > OK. I misunderstood. There were no firmware listed in the > adaptec/firmware > > directory so I thought this was the problem. I also have the ACB-3530, > the > > ACB-4070, some Xebec S1410A and some OMTI bridges if there is a need for > a > > firmware dump. > > > > yea, I should start filling that stuff in. It would be good to get your > images > to start that. > I promised dumps of the SCSI bridges that I have. I start with ACB3530 and ACB4000A which I have nearby. I cannot guarantee that there are no bit rot in them. The ACB4000A has not been used for ages but the ACB3530 I at least hooked up with a SCSI host just a few years back. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/ACB3530-rev-D.hex https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/ACB4000A-rev-B.hex I think I have the manuals for the ACB4520, ACB4000A and the ACB4070 in addition to the ones that already are on bitsavers. Unless these are already digitized somewhere else I could look them up and try to scan them if there are interest. BTW. The filename for one file is wrong. It says ACB3350A rather than 3530A. /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 30 13:00:35 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 11:00:35 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4404 servcie manuals needed In-Reply-To: References: <121320090850.5777.4B24AAD8000475350000169122243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <3495ad8c-bcd5-79f1-2e1a-863ed10b0cf0@bitsavers.org> <0e0cf845-0be0-904b-a402-2cbffedab879@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <40f20e54-c5d8-73c0-8fd9-fc955e978485@bitsavers.org> On 5/30/16 10:51 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2016-05-23 18:57 GMT+02:00 Al Kossow : > >> >> >> On 5/23/16 9:55 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >>> OK. I misunderstood. There were no firmware listed in the >> adaptec/firmware >>> directory so I thought this was the problem. I also have the ACB-3530, >> the >>> ACB-4070, some Xebec S1410A and some OMTI bridges if there is a need for >> a >>> firmware dump. >>> >> >> yea, I should start filling that stuff in. It would be good to get your >> images >> to start that. >> > > I promised dumps of the SCSI bridges that I have. I start with ACB3530 and > ACB4000A which I have nearby. I cannot guarantee that there are no bit rot > in them. The ACB4000A has not been used for ages but the ACB3530 I at least > hooked up with a SCSI host just a few years back. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/ACB3530-rev-D.hex > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/ACB4000A-rev-B.hex > > I think I have the manuals for the ACB4520, ACB4000A and the ACB4070 in > addition to the ones that already are on bitsavers. Unless these are > already digitized somewhere else I could look them up and try to scan them > if there are interest. > > BTW. The filename for one file is wrong. It says ACB3350A rather than 3530A. > > /Mattis > thanks! it doesn't look like i have the 4000a or 4070 scanned, a little surprising since I know i have them somewhere. 4520a is in the backlog From elson at pico-systems.com Mon May 30 14:00:47 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 14:00:47 -0500 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: <20160530062641.GB28201@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160529024422.9448F18C13A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <574B0DE6.6040305@pico-systems.com> <20160530062641.GB28201@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <574C8DDF.9040104@pico-systems.com> On 05/30/2016 01:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 10:42:30AM -0500, Jon Elson wrote: >> There's a guy in Germany who did one, using all SMT parts. > Could it be Dieters MT15 you are thinking of? Quite inspiring project: > > http://6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15.htm > > http://6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15_cpu_front.jpg > > /P > YES, that is the one! Gee, he should be in the homebrew computer web ring! Jon From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 30 14:42:52 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 20:42:52 +0100 Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane Message-ID: Hi folks, Been rummaging in the garage for stuff I'll be exhibiting in the UK in July and found this: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LSI1123.JPG It's a 4-slot cage containing: M7270 11/03 CPU M7944 4K RAM (x2) M8027 LP11 There's a fault label on the M8027 saying it occasionally drops characters. Question is, anyone know what it was out of? Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon May 30 15:42:26 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 13:42:26 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Digital Decwriter III (DEC LA120) - Complete - FTAGH References: <904666044.1377897.1464639510676.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4644A899-C405-45D1-95F5-67551EFBE55C@nf6x.net> Forwarded with permission of the author: > Begin forwarded message: > > From: David Tumey via GreenKeys > Subject: [GreenKeys] Digital Decwriter III (DEC LA120) - Complete - FTAGH > Date: May 30, 2016 at 13:18:30 PDT > To: GREENKEYS BULLETIN BOARD > Reply-To: David Tumey > > Free to a good home: > > Digital Decwriter III - LA120 - Complete. The machine is located in a storage unit in Beavercreek, OH (Near Dayton/Fairborn/Huber Heights). > > The machine is 100% complete and I saw it actually working in 1994 when it was taken out of service - it has been in storage since. > > Excellent source of hard-to-find parts: Power supplies, print head, keyboard, PCBs, cover parts, motors, pulleys, bearings, etc. Possibly even restoration. > > Let me know if you are interested off-list and I will put you in touch with my son to make the arrangements for pickup. > > thanks. > --dave > W5DT -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon May 30 15:49:39 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 21:49:39 +0100 Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05af01d1bab4$c8f45370$5adcfa50$@gmail.com> Adrian, Where are you exhibiting in July? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 30 May 2016 20:43 > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane > > Hi folks, > > Been rummaging in the garage for stuff I'll be exhibiting in the UK in July and > found this: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LSI1123.JPG > > It's a 4-slot cage containing: > > M7270 11/03 CPU > M7944 4K RAM (x2) > M8027 LP11 > > There's a fault label on the M8027 saying it occasionally drops characters. > Question is, anyone know what it was out of? > > Cheers! > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > From couryhouse at aol.com Mon May 30 16:13:55 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 14:13:55 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Digital Decwriter III (DEC LA120) - Complete - FTAGH Message-ID: Someone needs to grab this ?.... heads are hard to get...? Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: "Mark J. Blair" Date: 5/30/2016 1:42 PM (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Digital Decwriter III (DEC LA120) - Complete - FTAGH Forwarded with permission of the author: > Begin forwarded message: > > From: David Tumey via GreenKeys > Subject: [GreenKeys] Digital Decwriter III (DEC LA120) - Complete - FTAGH > Date: May 30, 2016 at 13:18:30 PDT > To: GREENKEYS BULLETIN BOARD > Reply-To: David Tumey > > Free to a good home: > > Digital Decwriter III - LA120 - Complete.? The machine is located in a storage unit in Beavercreek, OH (Near Dayton/Fairborn/Huber Heights). > > The machine is 100% complete and I saw it actually working in 1994 when it was taken out of service - it has been in storage since. > > Excellent source of hard-to-find parts:? Power supplies, print head, keyboard, PCBs, cover parts, motors, pulleys, bearings, etc.? Possibly even restoration. > > Let me know if you are interested off-list and I will put you in touch with my son to make the arrangements for pickup. > > thanks. > --dave > W5DT -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon May 30 16:21:58 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 14:21:58 -0700 Subject: [GreenKeys] Digital Decwriter III (DEC LA120) - Complete - FTAGH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 30, 2016, at 14:13, couryhouse wrote: > > > > Someone needs to grab this .... heads are hard to get... Complete units aren't cheap and plentiful these days, either. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From bear at typewritten.org Mon May 30 14:18:37 2016 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 12:18:37 -0700 Subject: Xerox Star install floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7507C1FC-A36D-4130-B729-3F0FD6F2CDB5@typewritten.org> On May 29, 2016, at 9:15 PM, David Griffith wrote: > This person then stated that Al Kossow might or might not have a full set. In any case, it's not on Bitsavers. Al expressed interest in a set that I offered a couple months ago, but he never followed up on that. So, would someone please confirm the existance of a full set of install floppy images for the Xerox 8010 Star somewhere? I've been buying those lots on eBay as I've seen them come by. I sent Al copies of them last week, or possibly the week before (the days run together). I'm not sure whether they constitute a full set of anything, either, but I assume Al will let me know. > ViewPoint 1.1 (file check) Of the four you listed, this one I don't have. ok bear. -- until further notice From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon May 30 15:03:25 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 16:03:25 -0400 Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have several like these that - as far as I know - came out of oem equipment. In my case, voluntary milking systems. Op 30 mei 2016 9:43 p.m. schreef "Adrian Graham" < witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk>: > Hi folks, > > Been rummaging in the garage for stuff I'll be exhibiting in the UK in July > and found this: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LSI1123.JPG > > It's a 4-slot cage containing: > > M7270 11/03 CPU > M7944 4K RAM (x2) > M8027 LP11 > > There's a fault label on the M8027 saying it occasionally drops characters. > Question is, anyone know what it was out of? > > Cheers! > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon May 30 16:46:22 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 14:46:22 -0700 Subject: [GreenKeys] Digital Decwriter III (DEC LA120) - Complete - FTAGH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62801FC5-1EF8-49C0-8F8D-0A9BFBC5DE15@nf6x.net> As I expected, it went fast! davetumey at yahoo.com wrote: > Looks like the Decwriter III will be going to a new home. If for some reason this effort falls through, I will re-list the machine on Greenkeys. > > thanks. > --dave > W5DT -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 30 18:29:31 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 00:29:31 +0100 Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane In-Reply-To: <05af01d1bab4$c8f45370$5adcfa50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, Stratford-upon-Avon, July 2nd. It's the Recursion Computer Science Fair ( http://www.recursioncomputerfair.co.uk). Mostly gaming/BASIC machines but I'll be taking some goodies too. A On 30/05/2016 21:49, "Dave Wade" wrote: > Adrian, > Where are you exhibiting in July? > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian >> Graham >> Sent: 30 May 2016 20:43 >> To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane >> >> Hi folks, >> >> Been rummaging in the garage for stuff I'll be exhibiting in the UK in > July and >> found this: >> >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LSI1123.JPG >> >> It's a 4-slot cage containing: >> >> M7270 11/03 CPU >> M7944 4K RAM (x2) >> M8027 LP11 >> >> There's a fault label on the M8027 saying it occasionally drops > characters. >> Question is, anyone know what it was out of? >> >> Cheers! >> >> -- >> Adrian/Witchy >> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >> collection? >> > > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 30 18:32:07 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 00:32:07 +0100 Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 30/05/2016 21:03, "Camiel Vanderhoeven" wrote: > I have several like these that - as far as I know - came out of oem > equipment. In my case, voluntary milking systems. Ah right, so a sort-of-embedded PDP system then. I'll probably take it along just to show kids what 4 whole kilobytes of RAM looked like back then... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From useddec at gmail.com Mon May 30 21:14:45 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 21:14:45 -0500 Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Might be the ones used in the SB11. On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 30/05/2016 21:03, "Camiel Vanderhoeven" wrote: > > > I have several like these that - as far as I know - came out of oem > > equipment. In my case, voluntary milking systems. > > Ah right, so a sort-of-embedded PDP system then. I'll probably take it > along > just to show kids what 4 whole kilobytes of RAM looked like back then... > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From isking at uw.edu Tue May 31 00:43:33 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 22:43:33 -0700 Subject: Finally! Opened my TeleVideo TPC-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: More on this: It wasn't simple to get the power supply loose to the point where I can access its circuit board. I had to disengage the rear section, which is also secured to the main case (a U-shaped affair, providing the main section of the case). This involved three more of the plastic latches, but realizing that they were pretty robust I felt confident using some force. A butter knife was a useful tool, but if I did this every day I'd probably use a putty knife of appropriate width, or perhaps fabricate a pry bar with a small lip to pull the receiver away from the latching piece. I don't plan to do this every day. :-) So I'm going to replace all of the electrolytics, this being the most common cause I've seen for these symptoms, then reassembling it loosely and evaluating behavior. I'm exciting about getting this machine working as I have a metric butt-ton of software for it, and I want to see what it will do. -- Ian On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 7:06 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > Hi all, > > A while back I asked if anyone knew how to open the case of this early > luggable, and there were crickets. Well, I pulled it out today with the > intention of poking and prodding, and I magically got it to open! > > There's a top piece that is fastened to the front bezel with two apparent > screws. But it is also snapped in to the rear cover in a manner that is not > readily apparent or discernable. If one removes two screws at either end of > the rear cover, the rear piece will cantilever back ever so slightly, and > the latching of the plastic pieces will separate without damage. > > The power supply assembly is fastened to the bottom of the case with a > couple of screws that come up from below/outside, so I'd already removed > those. It should be relatively simple to rotate the assembly so that I can > remove the screws holding the PCB to a backpiece, providing access to the > PCB so I can replace the 30+ year old electrolytics. Given the symptoms, > this seems like the most likely root casuse.... -- Ian > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a > Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 31 02:33:53 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 08:33:53 +0100 Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane In-Reply-To: References: <05af01d1bab4$c8f45370$5adcfa50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <010e01d1bb0e$c8dbf690$5a93e3b0$@gmail.com> Ok Thanks. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 31 May 2016 00:30 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane > > Hi Dave, > > Stratford-upon-Avon, July 2nd. It's the Recursion Computer Science Fair ( > http://www.recursioncomputerfair.co.uk). Mostly gaming/BASIC machines but > I'll be taking some goodies too. > > A > > > On 30/05/2016 21:49, "Dave Wade" wrote: > > > Adrian, > > Where are you exhibiting in July? > > Dave > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> Adrian Graham > >> Sent: 30 May 2016 20:43 > >> To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane > >> > >> Hi folks, > >> > >> Been rummaging in the garage for stuff I'll be exhibiting in the UK > >> in > > July and > >> found this: > >> > >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LSI1123.JPG > >> > >> It's a 4-slot cage containing: > >> > >> M7270 11/03 CPU > >> M7944 4K RAM (x2) > >> M8027 LP11 > >> > >> There's a fault label on the M8027 saying it occasionally drops > > characters. > >> Question is, anyone know what it was out of? > >> > >> Cheers! > >> > >> -- > >> Adrian/Witchy > >> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > >> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > >> collection? > >> > > > > > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > From shadoooo at gmail.com Mon May 30 17:37:20 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 00:37:20 +0200 Subject: TU58 yet one more time Message-ID: Hello, I'm very interested on TU58, as I have a lot of tapes that I need to dump, plus I would create some new (console at start) for my vax 730. What I'm trying to do: use a drive mechanism connected with to modern mixed signal microcontroller with USB port. The device will be able to control the tape speed and to sample with ADC and DAC the analog signals on the read / write heads, transferring the bare samples with almost no filtering to a PC. Then all the processing can be done via software. In this way, a weak data track can be maybe recovered, and an empty tape can be formatted. It's impossible to use the tape drive with a DEC machine or via serial port, but I'm not trying to emulate the standard TU58. If somebody is interested, I can share my ideas, I already begun with the hardware. But I have to fix the capstan too... Andrea From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon May 30 20:26:53 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 18:26:53 -0700 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59F8E2EF-5E83-447D-8C22-E13F757A0F9F@nf6x.net> > On May 30, 2016, at 15:37, shadoooo wrote: > > If somebody is interested, I can share my ideas, I already begun with the > hardware. Yes, please do share! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From djg at pdp8online.com Mon May 30 20:39:14 2016 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 21:39:14 -0400 Subject: TI Professional Computer (TIPC) Service Manual? In-Reply-To: <20160528204229.GA25286@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <20160528204229.GA25286@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <20160531013914.GA424@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 10:42:29PM +0200, Martin Peters wrote: > I wanted to reactivate a TI Professional Computer (TIPC) and all I get > some seconds after powering it on is the message > > "** system error ** 0004" > > and a beep, lasting for about 2 seconds. > > The TIPC is an early, not really compatible clone of the IBM PC 5150. I > wonder if I need to do some reengineering and/or disassembling or if > there is a service manual out there. > I didn't find them in the technical reference but did find a list in the bios listing. If I read that correctly its interrupt or timers failed. Should be LED ON OFF OFF. I had one as part of my vintage computer exhibit. http://www.pdp8online.com/shows/vcfe16/vcfe16.shtml I had started to put some stuff online. So far I have the disks that we got from the local TI usergroup. http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/software/TI_PC/ From mattislind at gmail.com Tue May 31 02:07:24 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 09:07:24 +0200 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: tisdag 31 maj 2016 skrev shadoooo : > Hello, > I'm very interested on TU58, as I have a lot of tapes that I need to dump, > plus I would create some new (console at start) for my vax 730. Great! That is exactly what I want to do. But I also like to recover other tapes from for example HP 9825 / HP 2645. I have studied the QIC-117 spec some more but concluded that the drive is not dumb enough. The forward physical and rewind physical only work with full speed and it isn't specified if any data is output during these commands. However if one sacrifice the entire drive and just use the mechanics it would be really dumb so that could be a route. Formatting wouldn't work using this type of drive since the width of the magnetic head is different. > What I'm trying to do: use a drive mechanism connected with to modern mixed > signal microcontroller with USB port. > The device will be able to control the tape speed and to sample with ADC > and DAC the analog signals on the read / write heads, transferring the bare > samples with almost no filtering to a PC. The bit period is 41.2 us nominally and it is using 1/3 2/3 encoding which means that there are two flux transitions per bit one at the start and one at either 1/3 or 2/3 of the bit. So I guess that to decode it one would like to have at least 2 samples per each third or 6 samples per bit. That would mean around 160 kHz sampling rate. For writing I think that it is more on/off switching of a couple of transistors to have the flux go either way. > Then all the processing can be done via software. > In this way, a weak data track can be maybe recovered, and an empty tape > can be formatted. > One thing to think of is that a TU58 drive does not have optical BOT / EOT detectors. They make use of special patterns on the tape for this. So to format a blank tape can be a tricky operation, possibly manually positioning the tape and then just write the nominal number of blocks and hope the tape will be long enough. > It's impossible to use the tape drive with a DEC machine or via serial > port, but I'm not trying to emulate the standard TU58. > If somebody is interested, I can share my ideas, I already begun with the > hardware. > But I have to fix the capstan too... > Looking forward hearing more about this! > > Andrea > /Mattis From ed at groenenberg.net Tue May 31 03:23:11 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 10:23:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5166.213.236.112.126.1464682991.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Mon, May 30, 2016 21:42, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Been rummaging in the garage for stuff I'll be exhibiting in the UK in > July > and found this: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LSI1123.JPG > > It's a 4-slot cage containing: > > M7270 11/03 CPU > M7944 4K RAM (x2) > M8027 LP11 > > There's a fault label on the M8027 saying it occasionally drops > characters. > Question is, anyone know what it was out of? > > Cheers I believe these were made for the OEM market, I clearly remember ads for this type of backplane in old electronics magazines, where the ad did show a hand holding it in the air with some text next to it. I have a similar backplane, having 8 slots. Regards, Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From tony_duell at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 31 05:06:34 2016 From: tony_duell at yahoo.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 10:06:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Fw: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509990742.3489808.1464689194555.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Yes, it's still me. My normal ISP seems to have installed spam filters (without warning me!) which (a) drop the classiccmp messages and (b) bounce most outgoing mail! > On Monday, 30 May 2016, 23:37, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, [...] > the device will be able to control the tape speed and to sample with ADC> and DAC the analog signals on the read / write heads, transferring the bare > samples with almost no filtering to a PC. When I was fiddling with the tape drives in my 11/730, I pulled the 8155 from the controller board so I could control the tape motion by pulling signals low with wire links, I then hung a 'scope off the output of the read amplifier. I found that most (old, defective) tapes gave a very weak singnal, and that the flux transitions wrre almost equally spaced. I think you would not be able to recover anything from that. But you can but try. As an aside, I assume you've looked at the DEC data recovery circut. It's clever. It's almost indpendant of tape speed. Basically, ramp up on the transition at the start of a bit cell, change to ramp down on the second transition, then sample and reset, and start to ramp up again on the transition at the start of the next bit cell. Depending on whether the sample at the end of a bit cell is +ve or -ve it sees if it's a 0 or 1 [...] > But I have to fix the capstan too... Now that I have done. I started off with aluminium alloy rpd (I think 1/2" diameter, but I can check my notes), turned it down, turned a groove for an o-ring, drilled the centre hole (oddly for a US machine this is 3mm, not 1/8" -- and note the motor has different diameter spindles on the 2 ends!) drilled and tapped for the grub screw. With a good tape I get a good, stead signal at the right speed at the output of the read amplifier. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 31 09:45:41 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 07:45:41 -0700 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/31/16 12:07 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > tisdag 31 maj 2016 skrev shadoooo : > >> However if one > sacrifice the entire drive and just use the mechanics it would be really > dumb I don't get it. Why don't you do this with the TU58 mechanism? From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue May 31 10:38:43 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 08:38:43 -0700 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 31, 2016, at 00:07, Mattis Lind wrote: > One thing to think of is that a TU58 drive does not have optical BOT / EOT > detectors. They make use of special patterns on the tape for this. So to > format a blank tape can be a tricky operation, possibly manually > positioning the tape and then just write the nominal number of blocks and > hope the tape will be long enough. The TU58-XA mechanism doesn't have the BOT/EOT sensors, but I believe that the tapes still have the BOT/EOT tape perforations and the mirror behind the tape to form a 90 degree optical path. So, it should be possible to add physical BOT/EOT sensors to a TU58-XA mechanism as part of a custom tape imager/formatter project. The approach I'm hoping to take is different, though, and inspired by my perhaps irrational level of distrust of the tape cartridge design: Transferring the tape to be imaged into an audio cassette housing, and then imaging it on a hacked up transport, thus eliminating that #*&!$*! capstan and belt mechanism from the equation. I wonder how the TU58 tape's magnetic properties compare to any audio cassette tape formulations? If I could find a way to create new tape belts, then it would be nice to be able to overhaul old cartridges. On May 31, 2016, at 03:06, Tony Duell wrote: > Now that I have done. I started off with aluminium alloy rpd (I think > 1/2" diameter, but I can check my notes), turned it down, turned a > > groove for an o-ring, drilled the centre hole (oddly for a US machine > this is 3mm, not 1/8" -- and note the motor has different diameter > > spindles on the 2 ends!) drilled and tapped for the grub screw. With > a good tape I get a good, stead signal at the right speed at the output > of the read amplifier. I like your approach for making a substitute drive wheel. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 31 11:34:51 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 09:34:51 -0700 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d9862c4-bc5a-71e8-7641-c9ddb838fb88@bitsavers.org> On 5/31/16 8:38 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > Transferring the tape to be imaged into an audio cassette housing, and then imaging it on a hacked up transport You may want to use a data cassette like the MT-2ST http://www.ebay.com/sch/161622290065 has a decent picture. I've got the manual on bitsavers From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 31 11:35:53 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 09:35:53 -0700 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/31/16 8:38 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > If I could find a way to create new tape belts, then it would be nice to be able to overhaul old cartridges. > plastibands work ok for DC-100 carts. the bigger size is a bit too narrow for DC-600 though From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 31 11:38:56 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 09:38:56 -0700 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: <1d9862c4-bc5a-71e8-7641-c9ddb838fb88@bitsavers.org> References: <1d9862c4-bc5a-71e8-7641-c9ddb838fb88@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/31/16 9:34 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/31/16 8:38 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> >> Transferring the tape to be imaged into an audio cassette housing, and then imaging it on a hacked up transport > > You may want to use a data cassette like the MT-2ST > http://www.ebay.com/sch/161622290065 has a decent picture. I've got the manual on bitsavers > > the problem is head width and position. i'd have to check if the DC-100 carts being talked about (DEC and HP) all put the heads in the same place with the same width. the problem with using QIC transports is the head width is too narrow for the old carts, reducing the contact area and increasing the chance of dropouts. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 31 12:09:02 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 13:09:02 -0400 Subject: Commodore C2N datasette belts (was Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.) In-Reply-To: References: <0A03CA8080004661AF3C785EBB58D98A@deskjara> Message-ID: On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 3:53 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > @ All > > I'm working on a deal for a batch of these.. so hold on to your hats / > wallets for a little while, and we should have something to work with. I'm in no hurry. I just had a couple offers from folks outside of the US to help score a pile of them, but of course, the shipping is far higher than the cost of the belts themselves. For my own needs, I have at least 3-4 drives needing belts but don't want to be spending $5 each for them. It's a rubber band! It's not a lost technology! -ethan From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue May 31 12:15:51 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 10:15:51 -0700 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On May 30, 2016, at 7:01 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > But it does please me that, right now, I'm using an Apple Extended II > keyboard from 1990 on my 2011 Mac mini. :-) It feels more > authentically "Mac-like" this way, somehow. On my desk at work, I have a 5K iMac hooked up to the same Apple Extended Keyboard II that I've been using since 1990. :) -- Chris From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 31 12:36:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 10:36:12 -0700 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> On 05/31/2016 10:15 AM, Chris Hanson wrote: > On May 30, 2016, at 7:01 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> But it does please me that, right now, I'm using an Apple Extended >> II keyboard from 1990 on my 2011 Mac mini. :-) It feels more >> authentically "Mac-like" this way, somehow. > > On my desk at work, I have a 5K iMac hooked up to the same Apple > Extended Keyboard II that I've been using since 1990. :) It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. Windows key? What Windows key? ;) --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue May 31 12:42:22 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 13:42:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201605311742.NAA21495@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an > IBM Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. Not me. My x86 boxen get whatever peecee keyboard is handiest when I want a keyboard on them. I don't have a Model M as far as I know; my impression from seeing others' is that they are not Mouse-friendly. (I know of no Mouse-friendly keyboards suitable for direct use on x86 boxen.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From stark at mit.edu Tue May 31 12:56:14 2016 From: stark at mit.edu (Greg Stark) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 18:56:14 +0100 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> Message-ID: I just broke one of the pins on the ps2 connector on my model M :( Otherwise I would be using it on my headless server when it doesn't boot and needs a console to rescue it. -- Greg On 31 May 2016 6:36 pm, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 05/31/2016 10:15 AM, Chris Hanson wrote: > > On May 30, 2016, at 7:01 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> But it does please me that, right now, I'm using an Apple Extended > >> II keyboard from 1990 on my 2011 Mac mini. :-) It feels more > >> authentically "Mac-like" this way, somehow. > > > > On my desk at work, I have a 5K iMac hooked up to the same Apple > > Extended Keyboard II that I've been using since 1990. :) > > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM > Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. > > Windows key? What Windows key? ;) > > --Chuck > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue May 31 13:11:29 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 19:11:29 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 31 May 2016 10:36:12 -0700" <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> On 2016/05/31 10:36 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/31/2016 10:15 AM, Chris Hanson wrote: > > On May 30, 2016, at 7:01 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> But it does please me that, right now, I'm using an Apple Extended > >> II keyboard from 1990 on my 2011 Mac mini. :-) It feels more > >> authentically "Mac-like" this way, somehow. > > > > On my desk at work, I have a 5K iMac hooked up to the same Apple > > Extended Keyboard II that I've been using since 1990. :) > > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM > Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. > > Windows key? What Windows key? ;) > x86 box? What x86 box? ;) Regards, Peter Coghlan From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue May 31 13:18:47 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 15:18:47 -0300 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> Message-ID: <574DD587.3080308@gmail.com> On 2016-05-31 2:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/31/2016 10:15 AM, Chris Hanson wrote: >> On May 30, 2016, at 7:01 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> But it does please me that, right now, I'm using an Apple Extended >>> II keyboard from 1990 on my 2011 Mac mini. :-) It feels more >>> authentically "Mac-like" this way, somehow. >> On my desk at work, I have a 5K iMac hooked up to the same Apple >> Extended Keyboard II that I've been using since 1990. :) > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM > Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. > > Windows key? What Windows key? ;) > > --Chuck > Model Ms all the way for me, I have laid in a stock of as many as I could get my hands on. No other keyboard feels or sounds like them. Paul. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue May 31 13:21:13 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 14:21:13 -0400 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <574DD587.3080308@gmail.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> <574DD587.3080308@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have 6 model M's around at last count, plus many more for parts. Good keyboard, i set them up at the 2 front computers at work. On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2016-05-31 2:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 05/31/2016 10:15 AM, Chris Hanson wrote: >> >>> On May 30, 2016, at 7:01 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>>> But it does please me that, right now, I'm using an Apple Extended >>>> II keyboard from 1990 on my 2011 Mac mini. :-) It feels more >>>> authentically "Mac-like" this way, somehow. >>>> >>> On my desk at work, I have a 5K iMac hooked up to the same Apple >>> Extended Keyboard II that I've been using since 1990. :) >>> >> It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM >> Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. >> >> Windows key? What Windows key? ;) >> >> --Chuck >> >> Model Ms all the way for me, I have laid in a stock of as many as I > could get my hands on. No other keyboard feels or sounds like them. > > Paul. > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 31 13:21:29 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 19:21:29 +0100 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <201605311742.NAA21495@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> <201605311742.NAA21495@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <043001d1bb69$407f2690$c17d73b0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 31 May 2016 18:42 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: NEC ProSpeed 386 > > > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an > > IBM Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. > > Not me. My x86 boxen get whatever peecee keyboard is handiest when I want > a keyboard on them. I don't have a Model M as far as I know; my impression > from seeing others' is that they are not Mouse-friendly. (I know of no Mouse- > friendly keyboards suitable for direct use on x86 > boxen.) I don't like the Model "M" keyboard. It's a bit like wanting a tracker organ rather than my Yamaha EL90. The keys require significant pressure to operate and if you are not used to it its actually hard work. I am not really used to this Lenovo Thinkpad T410 keyboard, but the Thinkpad laptop keyboards haven't really altered For a long time, even though IBM sold the business to Lenovo. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Dave G4UGM From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue May 31 13:35:54 2016 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 11:35:54 -0700 Subject: Tek 4405/4406 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > There were bits of the system and smalltalk for the 4405/6, so it would be > nice if someone > might have one of these to dump the firmware, though there probably isn't > enought to boot one. > > I think I have a full set of Tek Smalltalk for the 4406 / 4404 machines. I also have two 4406s and several 4404s with several HD/floppy expansion boxes that I really haven't had time to look at. I believe I have an external SCSI, mac like, 20 meg hd with software that was attached to one of the 4406s. I have the SW at my house now, the rest is still in storage. What are you looking for and I will see if I can find it? Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 31 13:49:00 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 11:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic keyboard (and fonts) (Was: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM > Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. > > Windows key? What Windows key? ;) The one with the picture of a dry-rot window Do you mean [Ctrl[Esc]? Best way to represent the above? 30? years ago, I created a special key-top font for discussing keystrokes in documentation. IIRC, I had two versions of [Ctrl], [Alt], and [Shft] One version had no right hand edge, to reinforce the idea that it was used in combination with another key. LJ/DJ and Cordata, never got around to completing a postscript version, nor Truetype, when that came along. I also did LJ/DJ and Cordata screen printing fonts. Used, mostly as full screen images, along with my TSR, for a lot of Sybex books. regular, inverse, and bold, in a couple of resolutions, such as 9x12. Did you know that according to HP, it is "IMPOSSIBLE" to print an inverse font? I'm glad that I didn't know until after I succeeded. (Wiley E. Coyote principle of project implementation). Never did come up with a good representation for blinkking text. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 31 14:25:30 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 12:25:30 -0700 Subject: Classic keyboard (and fonts) (Was: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> Message-ID: <574DE52A.7000709@sydex.com> On 05/31/2016 11:49 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > The one with the picture of a dry-rot window Do you mean [Ctrl[Esc]? Dunno, I use Linux. But I used to get calls from the Indian subcontinent telling me that my Windows computer was showing suspicious action. I tried to comply with their instructions, but the first stumbling block was the Windows key. It only got worse after that... > Best way to represent the above? > 30? years ago, I created a special key-top font for discussing > keystrokes in documentation. Well, I still have a couple of red "Panic" keys that fit Cherry keyboards... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 31 14:01:02 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 12:01:02 -0700 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <043001d1bb69$407f2690$c17d73b0$@gmail.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> <201605311742.NAA21495@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <043001d1bb69$407f2690$c17d73b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <574DDF6E.5030405@sydex.com> On 05/31/2016 11:21 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > I don't like the Model "M" keyboard. It's a bit like wanting a > tracker organ rather than my Yamaha EL90. The keys require > significant pressure to operate and if you are not used to it its > actually hard work. I am not really used to this Lenovo Thinkpad T410 > keyboard, but the Thinkpad laptop keyboards haven't really altered > For a long time, even though IBM sold the business to Lenovo. It could be a matter of what you learned to touch-type on. For me, it was a manual Underwood office machine. It took some time to get used to an electric typewriter--too twitchy. One thing that's probably been lost to time is the need for a uniform striking force when using a manual typewriter. With that in mind, the Model M is the best of the recent (<30 years) lot. Nothing wrong with tracker-action organs, IMOHO. There's an immediacy of "feel" to them, not easily reproduced by electronic/electrical/pneumatic keying. I'm speaking from the home town of John Brombaugh, so allowances must be made, naturally. Just call me an old fossil. --Chuck From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue May 31 14:37:56 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 12:37:56 -0700 Subject: Using a DEC RM80 as a Massbus -> SMD interface Message-ID: Hi folks, I recently picked up a DIGITAL RM80 drive. >From what I've read, this is a SMD drive based around the R80 HDA, with a massbus to SMD bridge. I have identified this component and the outputs indeed look like SMD. Is there a way to use this as a SMD controller with 3rd party drives? How would you format or set geometries? Does anyone have more information about the RM80? Thanks, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue May 31 14:52:12 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 12:52:12 -0700 Subject: WTB: Spare Digital R*80 HDA Message-ID: let me know if you have one. I'm in Seattle, for reference. -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From mattislind at gmail.com Tue May 31 15:16:35 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 22:16:35 +0200 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: tisdag 31 maj 2016 skrev Al Kossow : > > > On 5/31/16 12:07 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > tisdag 31 maj 2016 skrev shadoooo >: > > > >> However if one > > sacrifice the entire drive and just use the mechanics it would be really > > dumb > > I don't get it. Why don't you do this with the TU58 mechanism? > > > Because I want it to be as generic as possible. If it is possible to move the heads I can read tapes that are written not only by a TU58 but also on a any DC100 compatible device. I dont know what sort of head HP made use of for their HP9825 and HP2645 for example. I here compare what AJ have done with a Wangtek 5099 drive. Being able to read a tape written by a completely different drive (DEI) by just positionig the head correctly. The resulting data I then decoded in software and the original tar archive was recovered. Now the encoding was MFM in th S8000 not GCR which was used normally by the QIC-02 and SCSI drives with nine tracks and DC300. /Mattis From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 31 15:12:34 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 21:12:34 +0100 Subject: Classic keyboard (and fonts) (Was: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <574DE52A.7000709@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> <574DE52A.7000709@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7f2e0f8f-32e0-1139-eeb8-c2e9bf6b07ff@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/05/2016 20:25, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, I still have a couple of red "Panic" keys that fit Cherry > keyboards... But do you have the "Don't panic" key for the other end of the row? -- Pete From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 31 15:22:53 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 22:22:53 +0200 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 31 May 2016 at 19:15, Chris Hanson wrote: > On my desk at work, I have a 5K iMac hooked up to the same Apple Extended Keyboard II that I've been using since 1990. :) Excellent! :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 31 15:23:36 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 22:23:36 +0200 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 31 May 2016 at 19:36, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM > Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. > > Windows key? What Windows key? ;) The single one that I brought to Czechia so far is currently on my Raspberry Pi. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From mattislind at gmail.com Tue May 31 15:25:09 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 22:25:09 +0200 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: References: <1d9862c4-bc5a-71e8-7641-c9ddb838fb88@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: tisdag 31 maj 2016 skrev Al Kossow : > > > On 5/31/16 9:34 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > > On 5/31/16 8:38 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> > >> Transferring the tape to be imaged into an audio cassette housing, and > then imaging it on a hacked up transport > > > > You may want to use a data cassette like the MT-2ST > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/161622290065 has a decent picture. I've got the > manual on bitsavers > > > > > > the problem is head width and position. i'd have to check if the DC-100 > carts being talked about (DEC and HP) all > put the heads in the same place with the same width. the problem with > using QIC transports is the head width is too > narrow for the old carts, reducing the contact area and increasing the > chance of dropouts. > > On the other hand it is possible to shift the position of the head and thereby circumvent drop-outs by splicing together reads from many different tracks. A simple teqnique that I used sucessfully when reading S8000 tapes. /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 31 15:28:57 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 13:28:57 -0700 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: References: <1d9862c4-bc5a-71e8-7641-c9ddb838fb88@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <91a2ca4e-4d95-cfd1-5064-c9f7aa598d91@bitsavers.org> On 5/31/16 1:25 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > A simple teqnique that I used sucessfully when reading S8000 > tapes. > > so did you ever get your S8000 running? From g-wright at att.net Tue May 31 15:38:06 2016 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 20:38:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Star install disks References: <2070910555.2669959.1464727086142.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2070910555.2669959.1464727086142.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 12:18:37 -0700 From: "r.stricklin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Xerox Star install floppies Message-ID: <7507C1FC-A36D-4130-B729-3F0FD6F2CDB5 at typewritten.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On May 29, 2016, at 9:15 PM, David Griffith wrote: > This person then stated that Al Kossow might or might not have a full set.? In any case, it's not on Bitsavers.? Al expressed interest in a set that I offered a couple months ago, but he never followed up on that.? So, would someone please confirm the existance of a full set of install floppy images for the Xerox 8010 Star somewhere? I've been buying those lots on eBay as I've seen them come by. I sent Al copies of them last week, or possibly the week before (the days run together). I'm not sure whether they constitute a full set of anything, either, but I assume Al will let me know. > ViewPoint 1.1 (file check) Of the four you listed, this one I don't have. ok bear.======================================================================== Don Maslin had most of them.? I sent copies of mine to him and he sent copies of his to me. of coarse that a few years ago. Jerry From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 31 15:53:21 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 13:53:21 -0700 Subject: Star install disks In-Reply-To: <2070910555.2669959.1464727086142.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2070910555.2669959.1464727086142.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2070910555.2669959.1464727086142.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/31/16 1:38 PM, Jerry Wright wrote: > Don Maslin had most of them. I sent copies of mine to him and he sent > copies of his to me. of coarse that a few years ago. > They didn't survive to what was left in the storage locker. I just looked again at what I read when we got them at CHM (about 900 disks) and they aren't there. They also weren't on the aardvark system backup from 2002. Can you send me copies of what you have? From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 31 15:54:32 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 16:54:32 -0400 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0622CB828FB641179C06678B53266BC3@TeoPC> Typing on a Model M in my room hooked up to a Belkin SOHO KVM and 4 modernish machines (PS/2 to USB adapter). Also have a KVM setup in the lab with a Model M. And a stack of spares thanks to a local recycler years ago. Back in the 90's I used Northgate keyboards. I also have Apple Extended II keyboard on a DR.Bott ADB KVM in the lab if that helps. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 1:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: NEC ProSpeed 386 On 05/31/2016 10:15 AM, Chris Hanson wrote: > On May 30, 2016, at 7:01 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> But it does please me that, right now, I'm using an Apple Extended >> II keyboard from 1990 on my 2011 Mac mini. :-) It feels more >> authentically "Mac-like" this way, somehow. > > On my desk at work, I have a 5K iMac hooked up to the same Apple > Extended Keyboard II that I've been using since 1990. :) It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. Windows key? What Windows key? ;) --Chuck --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From mattislind at gmail.com Tue May 31 16:01:58 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 23:01:58 +0200 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: <91a2ca4e-4d95-cfd1-5064-c9f7aa598d91@bitsavers.org> References: <1d9862c4-bc5a-71e8-7641-c9ddb838fb88@bitsavers.org> <91a2ca4e-4d95-cfd1-5064-c9f7aa598d91@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: tisdag 31 maj 2016 skrev Al Kossow : > > > On 5/31/16 1:25 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > A simple teqnique that I used sucessfully when reading S8000 > > tapes. > > > > > > so did you ever get your S8000 running? > > It depend what you mean. It was running fine just 25 years ago. So yes it was running. But since then I haven't tried. Before I fire it up again I need to give it a complete overhaul. Check PSUs etc. Just hopefully the old Finch drive is still doing fine. The purpose of this tape-reading is to find a method to make a copy of the tapes without having a running system. /Mattis From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue May 31 16:04:16 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 14:04:16 -0700 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 31, 2016, at 09:35 , Al Kossow wrote: > > > > On 5/31/16 8:38 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> >> If I could find a way to create new tape belts, then it would be nice to be able to overhaul old cartridges. >> > > plastibands work ok for DC-100 carts. the bigger size is a bit too narrow for DC-600 though I tried using plastibands in a TU58 cartridge, with zero success. Once stretched, the width of the plastiband was too narrow, and it kept on slipping off the edge of the tape spool and jamming things up thoroughly. These are the ones I tried using: http://www.amazon.com/Baumgartens-8-inch-Plastibands-BAUSF5000-Assorted/dp/B0008GIKQW I think they might have worked if they were at least twice as wide, at around the same circumference. Is there a different type available that might work better? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Tue May 31 16:35:49 2016 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 21:35:49 +0000 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in Message-ID: >Message: 111 > Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 09:18:11 -0700 (PDT) > From: geneb > What I don't understand is why Windows is being used on these devices at > all. It specifically states in the license that it's not to be used with > life-critical systems or infrastructure (like nuclear plants). I wish I > could find a reference - I can't recall where I read that... That disclaimer was for Sun Java, not Windows itself. Bob From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 31 16:42:09 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 15:42:09 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM > > Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. > > Windows key? What Windows key? ;) > > x86 box? What x86 box? ;) Hehe, I use my Model M mostly with SGI's that have PS/2 ports. So, I'm right there with you. I have three model M keyboards, including the M5-2 with colored keys intact. I'm a keyboard nut along with a lot of other list members. I would echo what others have said about it's heavy key weight vis-a-vis other modern high end keyboard such as those based on MX blue switches. It's a little on the "pounding" side which will actually slow you down if you are a touch typist. However, the positive feedback from the buckling spring design can make you faster (because you become sensitive to the tiny 'click' and thus release quickly after that feedback). As far as a PS/2 keyboard they are extremely well built gear. However, these days the Model M is no longer my favorite. The Cherry MX blue switches are superior, IMHO. The main reason being their lower resistance. However, the key caps can also make a big difference. Low weight keys pitched at the wrong angle will still be hard to push, for example. I won't list out the embarrassing number of keyboards I've owned. However, just for posterity my favorites are: 1. The Logitech Orion Spark G910 with Romer-G switches 2. The CM Storm Quickfire Pro with MX Blue switches 3. The Razer Blackwidow with green switches Here's why: 1. It's not the bling/colors, it's the switches. My only complaint is that the keys are slightly more scalloped than I'd like. Other than that, it's a pretty awesome (USB only) keyboard. 2. This is the best Cherry-based keyboard I've encountered. There is some kind of wonderful substance on the keys that makes them continually tacky. For whatever reason, the key weight feels slightly lighter than other MX blue based rigs. I feel that anything beyond the MX blue keywieght is "way too much". This keyboard nails it. 3. Their new model with "green" switches is outrageously light. I can type faster on this keyboard than any other I've tried. However, it requires a bit more care than the Orion, for example. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 31 16:50:01 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 15:50:01 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > 1. The Logitech Orion Spark G910 with Romer-G switches > 2. The CM Storm Quickfire Pro with MX Blue switches > 3. The Razer Blackwidow with green switches Ahhh, and my anti-keyboard list. These three are supposed to be wonderful. I found them not-so-much-wonderful-as-pathetic: 1. 1990's era Dell "QuietKey" keyboards. Neither quiet nor comfortable. 2. The so-called "Happy Hacker" keyboard. I didn't care for the feel at all. However, they make a Sun version, so bully to them for that! 3. Every rubber dome keyboard ever made == Garbage (IMO). Also, there were some late 1990 model HP keyboard (rare and hard to find) which were right up there with the Model M but had a lighter weight. I remember that one came with a high-end Vectra workstation. I saved one from the dump that I used for years. I really liked it's design (it had grey keys and a beige body). It had no Windows key and the keyweight was amazing. I wish I'd kept it around. The cord got worn out, and I thought "Oh well, I have my Model M's." Mistake, really. -Swift From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 31 16:53:05 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 16:53:05 -0500 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <574DDF6E.5030405@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> <201605311742.NAA21495@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <043001d1bb69$407f2690$c17d73b0$@gmail.com> <574DDF6E.5030405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <574E07C1.8020405@cimmeri.com> On 5/31/2016 2:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/31/2016 11:21 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> I don't like the Model "M" keyboard. It's a bit like wanting a >> tracker organ rather than my Yamaha EL90. The keys require >> significant pressure to operate and if you are not used to it its >> actually hard work... > It could be a matter of what you learned to touch-type on. For me, it > was a manual Underwood office machine. It took some time to get used to > an electric typewriter--too twitchy. One thing that's probably been > lost to time is the need for a uniform striking force when using a > manual typewriter. > > With that in mind, the Model M is the best of the recent (<30 years) lot. > > ... > > --Chuck Interesting observations. I learned to type on both an Apple II and a Brother electric typewriter (kinda like a daisywheel printer with a keyboard).... but I'll never forget the first time I laid hands on the original IBM PC keyboard. The quality of that feel! The quality of that sound! I didn't like the machine but I loved that spacious keyboard. Many years later, it was nostalgia for that feel and sound that led me to connecting the 1994 model M I'm still using today, on any PC I use. Any other keyboard just won't do. - J. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 31 17:16:20 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 16:16:20 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > On 31 May 2016 at 19:15, Chris Hanson wrote: > > On my desk at work, I have a 5K iMac hooked up to the same Apple Extended Keyboard II that I've been using since 1990. :) > Excellent! :-) I'm not a huge Apple zealot to the point of wearing black turtlenecks every day, but I gotta hand it to them, they have been a big innovator with keyboard design. They (almost?) always design their own keyboards. They have had big fat key'd ones and tiny thin aluminum designs, ones with huge borders and ones with nearly zero borders, but they've always tried to put a little bit of pinache therein. Successful or not, I respect them a lot for trying, and several of their designs are very nice. I've never known them to create "clackety" keyboards with mechanical switches, but then again there are only two groups who care: gamers and curmudgeons (*grin*). I made my choice to be an "IT guy" a long time ago, I might as well do it in style and comfort with the most beautiful gear I can get. Thus, the IT gear I'm least afraid to drop money on is my keyboard and monitor. Okay cash on keyboards in my case is a vulgar embarrassment (let's just not talk about that *ugh*), but monitors I only buy once every few years (if that much). When I do buy one, I choose *very* carefully. That was the one thing that never really shone in the SGI world, despite some cool fru-fru in other places. I have a granite slab keyboard and an SGI USB keyboard. Neither is anything special (and the USB one has DOMES *gasp*... the horror). However, SGI did have the "dials and buttons" and "Spaceball" interfaces. So what they lose in style points for lack of cool keyboard designs I have to re-award for their other cool input devices. -Swift From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue May 31 17:26:29 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 15:26:29 -0700 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) Message-ID: While on the subject anyone know where one can buy replacement key caps?? -Ali From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 31 17:30:18 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 23:30:18 +0100 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <574DDF6E.5030405@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> <201605311742.NAA21495@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <043001d1bb69$407f2690$c17d73b0$@gmail.com> <574DDF6E.5030405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <014f01d1bb8c$02c4ea10$084ebe30$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 31 May 2016 20:01 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: NEC ProSpeed 386 > > On 05/31/2016 11:21 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > > > I don't like the Model "M" keyboard. It's a bit like wanting a tracker > > organ rather than my Yamaha EL90. The keys require significant > > pressure to operate and if you are not used to it its actually hard > > work. I am not really used to this Lenovo Thinkpad T410 keyboard, but > > the Thinkpad laptop keyboards haven't really altered For a long time, > > even though IBM sold the business to Lenovo. > > It could be a matter of what you learned to touch-type on. For me, it was a > manual Underwood office machine. It took some time to get used to an > electric typewriter--too twitchy. One thing that's probably been lost to time is > the need for a uniform striking force when using a manual typewriter. > Whilst I can touch type, more often than not I am in "Hunt and Peck" mode as I normally want to use the special keys all of which are "hard" from the home position. I learnt on a Smith Corona (horrid thing) from some kind of old second hand store, and a book borrowed from our local library. I spent a week just typing and I am sure it was the most effective use of time ever spent. After that it was an 026 or 029 keyboard, or a Selectric/2741 or an IBM 22xx display and then Honeywell keyboards. I don't remember any of them being as clicky as the Model-M on the PS-2. When I first had a job, I remember one of the typists left with RSI as she kept thumping her word processing keyboard as she had also spent many years on a manual typewriter and couldn't adapt to the soft feel of a WP keyboard. (That would be a Honeywell)... > With that in mind, the Model M is the best of the recent (<30 years) lot. > > Nothing wrong with tracker-action organs, IMOHO. There's an immediacy of > "feel" to them, not easily reproduced by electronic/electrical/pneumatic > keying. I'm speaking from the home town of John Brombaugh, so allowances > must be made, naturally. I well of course I live in "Historic Cheshire" (i.e. it used to be part of Cheshire) the home of Robert Hope-Jones the inventor of the electro-pneumatic action, the double diapason and a pioneer of high pressure pipe work in swell boxes, as adopted by the Wurlitzer Company for whom he worked, so I would say I prefer assisted keying... He also invented a type of Fog Horn which some says is more musical than the Wurlitzer... > > Just call me an old fossil. > Not at all, it's a personal preference. Life would be boring if we all liked exactly the same things. Model-M's are popular with gamers, and my son has one, and loves it. I was just saying there are people who don't like them and prefer a softer action. > --Chuck Dave From christopher1400 at gmail.com Tue May 31 17:30:53 2016 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 15:30:53 -0700 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe they have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so-hated keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find someone with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 31 17:32:35 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 16:32:35 -0600 (MDT) Subject: HP Vectra CS Portable Message-ID: http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=219 Speaking of the HP Vectra keyboard. This portable Vectra here has a *very* similar keyboard to the one that I was mentioned earlier in the keyboard thread. I'd imagine it's of the same ilk. Something about the design of these old "slab" portables has always been interesting to me. I know Dell has made a few "portables" post 2000 that are much larger and more of a "portable desktop replacement". I've seen them include somewhat-nicer keyboard with laptops to distinguish them (I'm thinkin' of the Thinkpad and some HP elite laptops). However, I haven't seen any modern machines ('cept luggables) that include "real" keyboards like this Vectra, Compaq, and others managed to do in the 80's. Also I love this photo. I could write 10 different short stories about what is *REALLY* going on this promotional photo: http://hpmuseum.net/images/VectraPortableCS_1987-PromoPhoto-60.jpg Manager = Blaine Jones Scientist = Janice Thornwinkle [Scene A] Blaine: Once I copy your research to this disk it'll prove that your research has no merit. We are probably going to shut the project down. Janice: Really sir?! We just about cured cancer here! [Scene B] Blaine: I just know you are going to spill some of that blue crap in those beakers on this new machine. I bet I can back up all your data on this floppy alone. Then I'm taking this laptop back to my office to watch porn. It's got CGA, after all. Janice: What? No. I never.. I mean... [Scene C] Blaine: Well, since this is your last day. I'll need a copy of that graph. Janice: Hmm? (I think I could kill him with this mechanical arm thing.) .... and so forth.... -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 31 17:34:50 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 16:34:50 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2016, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( > http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe they > have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so-hated > keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find someone > with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free. One can also 3D print keycaps for Cherry MX switches. There are models out there for free. Here's someone doing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub4cb-u8EWA -Swift From ben at bensinclair.com Tue May 31 17:34:53 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 17:34:53 -0500 Subject: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: I believe the Apple Extended Keyboard II was the last Apple keyboard with mechanical switches. I know that it's a desired keyboard even today! Out of the all of the keyboards I use regularly, I think my granite SGI is my favorite. On my main work Mac, I was using a Das Keyboard until a few days ago. I just had trouble going from the Das Keyboard back to the integrated Macbook Pro keyboard. I sometimes work from home with the Macbook in clamshell mode, and sometimes at a co-working space with just the Macbook. So, I switched back to their tiny wireless keyboard, though I wish they had a full size wireless keyboard. I'm also in a constant battle between a great keyboard and a clean desk with no wires. A nice project might be building an internal, battery powered bluetooth adapter into an Apple Extended II. On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 31 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 31 May 2016 at 19:15, Chris Hanson > wrote: > > > On my desk at work, I have a 5K iMac hooked up to the same Apple > Extended Keyboard II that I've been using since 1990. :) > > Excellent! :-) > > I'm not a huge Apple zealot to the point of wearing black turtlenecks > every day, but I gotta hand it to them, they have been a big innovator > with keyboard design. They (almost?) always design their own keyboards. > They have had big fat key'd ones and tiny thin aluminum designs, ones with > huge borders and ones with nearly zero borders, but they've always tried > to put a little bit of pinache therein. Successful or not, I respect them > a lot for trying, and several of their designs are very nice. I've never > known them to create "clackety" keyboards with mechanical switches, but > then again there are only two groups who care: gamers and curmudgeons > (*grin*). > > I made my choice to be an "IT guy" a long time ago, I might as well do it > in style and comfort with the most beautiful gear I can get. Thus, the IT > gear I'm least afraid to drop money on is my keyboard and monitor. Okay > cash on keyboards in my case is a vulgar embarrassment (let's just not > talk about that *ugh*), but monitors I only buy once every few years (if > that much). When I do buy one, I choose *very* carefully. > > That was the one thing that never really shone in the SGI world, despite > some cool fru-fru in other places. I have a granite slab keyboard and an > SGI USB keyboard. Neither is anything special (and the USB one has DOMES > *gasp*... the horror). However, SGI did have the "dials and buttons" and > "Spaceball" interfaces. So what they lose in style points for lack of cool > keyboard designs I have to re-award for their other cool input devices. > > -Swift > > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue May 31 18:02:49 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 00:02:49 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E Message-ID: Hi I'm trying to get my 11/94 running. Its a hybrid having both Q and Unibus. The CPU card has a KDJ11-E 18Mhz processor with 4Mb ram and six serial ports plus the console on board. Apart from a voltage monitor card that's all there is in the Qbus section. Between the Q and Unibus sections is a special convertor card (KTJ-11B UNIBUS adapter.) After the KTJ-11B I have one slot with an RX211 8in floppy controller in it. All of the other slots have bus grant cards except the last one that has a terminator card and a MLM card. On switch on the console display comes up. Whilst it performs the same functions as the one in the manual it looks different. What ever I do by way of setting up devices I can't get it to talk to the RX211. it just says No Controller. Ideas anybody? Rod Smallwood From spc at conman.org Tue May 31 18:14:15 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 19:14:15 -0400 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: > On Tue, 31 May 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM > > > Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. > > > Windows key? What Windows key? ;) > > > > x86 box? What x86 box? ;) > > Hehe, I use my Model M mostly with SGI's that have PS/2 ports. So, I'm > right there with you. I only use Model M keyboards. I have one for my Linux box, one for my Mac, and one for the office Mac. I have about five more sitting in the closet of the home office on standby, and I think I have a box of keyboards in storage. The only Model M I'm upset over not getting [1] is the one with the APL symbols on the keys. -spc [1] I was at a Ham fest about a decade ago and my friend snapped up that keyboard before I even saw it. Grrrrr ... From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue May 31 18:26:50 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 20:26:50 -0300 Subject: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <574E1DBA.8010500@gmail.com> On 2016-05-31 7:16 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > That was the one thing that never really shone in the SGI world, > despite some cool fru-fru in other places. I have a granite slab > keyboard and an SGI USB keyboard. Neither is anything special (and the > USB one has DOMES *gasp*... the horror). However, SGI did have the > "dials and buttons" and "Spaceball" interfaces. So what they lose in > style points for lack of cool keyboard designs I have to re-award for > their other cool input devices. -Swift SGI was not the only ones to have input devices like dial, LPFK, tablets with cursors or stylus, and space ball every company that made graphical workstations had such devices, in fact the first three probably predate SGI. One of my books has a picture of a IBM 2250 graphics terminal announced in 1964 complete with LPFK ("buttons"). The space ball came along later than the others. Paul. From lyndon at orthanc.ca Tue May 31 18:31:47 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 16:31:47 -0700 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: >> >> Hehe, I use my Model M mostly with SGI's that have PS/2 ports. So, I'm >> right there with you. The only sane modern keyboards are the WASD 'CODE' series. I have the 87 key model: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/code-keyboard/code-87-key-mechanical-keyboard-mx-green.html As someone who has spent years pounding on Cybernex XL83, Ann Arbor Ambassador, and Courier 3270-clone keyboards, mine feels right at home. Cherry MX (green) mechanical key switches, LED backlit keycaps, and the best part: flip one dip switch and CapsLock is remapped to Control in hardware. No more fscking around with OS-specific configs to undo *that* brain damage :-) They aren't cheap, and they're worth every penny! --lyndon P.S. I, too, wish I had APL keycaps for mine. You can get custom keycaps made, but they don't have the through-the-keycap backlight. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue May 31 18:36:42 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 16:36:42 -0700 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014a01d1bb95$49d6f340$dd84d9c0$@net> > Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( > http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe > they have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so- > hated keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find > someone with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free. Hi, Yeah, I am aware of Unicomp but their selection is very limited. I was hoping there was an outfit that made specialty key caps. For the standard keys I usually have one or two very badly beat up and abused Model Ms to donate parts from.... -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 31 18:57:04 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 16:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <574DDF6E.5030405@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> <201605311742.NAA21495@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <043001d1bb69$407f2690$c17d73b0$@gmail.com> <574DDF6E.5030405@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It could be a matter of what you learned to touch-type on. For me, it > was a manual Underwood office machine. Royal > It took some time to get used to > an electric typewriter--too twitchy. One thing that's probably been > lost to time is the need for a uniform striking force when using a > manual typewriter. I had a problem with touch-typing. My little finger wasn't strong enough to casually lift the entire mechanism. So, for a capital 'F', instead of a little finger and the key, it was my whole right hand on the right shift while I pressed that key. My father got an IBM electric (LONG before Selectric) at Goodwill. Enormous black heavy thing, that smelled like IBM electro-mechanical gear. It took a lot of work to get it and keep it working. When I was in college, those disposable Smith Corona portable elctrics came out. Later, the selectrics were just amazing. > Just call me an old fossil. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 31 19:10:41 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 17:10:41 -0700 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> On 05/31/2016 04:31 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > The only sane modern keyboards are the WASD 'CODE' series. I have > the 87 key model: > > http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/code-keyboard/code-87-key-mechanical-keyboard-mx-green.html > > As someone who has spent years pounding on Cybernex XL83, Ann Arbor > Ambassador, and Courier 3270-clone keyboards, mine feels right at > home. One keyboard that I didn't mind using for quite some time was one from NCR GmhH, for their 286 PC. Made by Cherry, with F1-F10 down the left side, where they belong and F11-F32 across the top. Nice feel, but lacking "real" F11 and F12 keys--the top row just emits codes for Ctrl-F1-10 and Alt-F1-10. Were it not for that, I'd probably still be using one today. I used one enough to have worn a visible depression in the space bar with my right thumb. I still have a few of the keyboards around. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 31 19:10:56 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 20:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/94-E Message-ID: <20160601001056.A9A7618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > On switch on the console display comes up. Whilst it performs the same > functions as the one in the manual it looks different. Hmm. Does it seem like a DEC EPROM, or someone else's? The 11/84 (very similar CPU) has a 'list' command which lists all the various EPROM's; does you console emulator provide that? > What ever I do by way of setting up devices I can't get it to talk to > the RX211. Try stopping the console emulator and falling into ODT, and seeing if you can see the RK211's registers from ODT. If not, does the 11/94 have that 'map' command in the console emulator that the 11/84 does? Another thing to try is, if you have some other UNIBUS device, plugging that in, and seeing if the CPU can 'see' it. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 31 19:14:34 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 17:14:34 -0700 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> <201605311742.NAA21495@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <043001d1bb69$407f2690$c17d73b0$@gmail.com> <574DDF6E.5030405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <574E28EA.1070902@sydex.com> On 05/31/2016 04:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I had a problem with touch-typing. My little finger wasn't strong > enough to casually lift the entire mechanism. So, for a capital > 'F', instead of a little finger and the key, it was my whole right > hand on the right shift while I pressed that key. Fred, I take it that you don't play piano! --Chuck From lyndon at orthanc.ca Tue May 31 19:17:31 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 17:17:31 -0700 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> > On May 31, 2016, at 5:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I used one enough to have worn a visible depression in the space bar > with my right thumb. I still have a few of the keyboards around. Another thing I love about the WASD keyboards. Because the lettering is molded all the way through the keycap, I can't wear the letters off. I've had a couple of other compact format Cherry keyboards over the years that I loved, but I always managed to pound the legend off them within a year or so. I'm not that good of a touch typist that I can work with a blank keyboard :-P From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 31 19:29:44 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 01:29:44 +0100 Subject: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <568121b8-967e-bf18-14e5-a5aba2306b34@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/05/2016 23:16, Swift Griggs wrote: > That was the one thing that never really shone in the SGI world, despite > some cool fru-fru in other places. I have a granite slab keyboard and an > SGI USB keyboard. Neither is anything special My granite slab Indy keyboards are actually my favourites :-) and I like the similar earlier Indigo ones, but the clacky slimmer grey ones that followed for the O2 are not very nice. IMHO :-) -- Pete From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 31 19:39:16 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 17:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: <574E28EA.1070902@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> <201605311742.NAA21495@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <043001d1bb69$407f2690$c17d73b0$@gmail.com> <574DDF6E.5030405@sydex.com> <574E28EA.1070902@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> I had a problem with touch-typing. My little finger wasn't strong >> enough to casually lift the entire mechanism. So, for a capital >> 'F', instead of a little finger and the key, it was my whole right >> hand on the right shift while I pressed that key. On Tue, 31 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Fred, I take it that you don't play piano! I did, a little. Also, baritone, flute, and tuba, until they realized that I wasn't exaggerating about how bad my hearing is. (my sister plays French Horn and alphorn, with occasional other brass, such as baritone, and a left-handed flugle-horn) but a piano key, an octave away, was not the same amount of force that it took on the manual Royal to get upper case - the entire mechanism had to be lifted. By the time that my little finger muscles built up, I was solidly in the habit of using my other hand. And then it felt strange to have shift keys that only took the same force as a regular key. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 31 19:38:48 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 01:38:48 +0100 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On 01/06/2016 01:17, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Another thing I love about the WASD keyboards. Because the lettering > is molded all the way through the keycap, I can't wear the letters > off. Agreed, it's the only way to make them... > I'm not that good of a touch typist that I can work with a blank > keyboard :-P Yet I had a colleague whose keyboard was made with all-blank caps. Very interesting when he needed help, or got me to demonstrate a problem - which luckily were very rarely. -- Pete From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 31 19:58:04 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 17:58:04 -0700 Subject: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> <201605311742.NAA21495@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <043001d1bb69$407f2690$c17d73b0$@gmail.com> <574DDF6E.5030405@sydex.com> <574E28EA.1070902@sydex.com> Message-ID: <574E331C.80202@sydex.com> On 05/31/2016 05:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > By the time that my little finger muscles built up, I was solidly in > the habit of using my other hand. And then it felt strange to have > shift keys that only took the same force as a regular key. I mention this only because the pinky finger on my left hand has a visibly enlarged first joint (most distal); the only finger on either hand to appear that way. It's been that way for as long as I've cared to notice--and I've long wondered if it's an artifact of my life of typing. It's the only explanation that I can come up with--I'm right-handed, but typing involves heavy use of the left pinky for shift, control, alt, tab keys, as well as QAZ. --Chuck From lyndon at orthanc.ca Tue May 31 20:45:00 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 18:45:00 -0700 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> > On May 31, 2016, at 5:38 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Yet I had a colleague whose keyboard was made with all-blank caps. Very interesting when he needed help, or got me to demonstrate a problem - which luckily were very rarely. My other Cherry keyboard I love is some sort of "gaming" model. That means they print the key legends on the *front* of the keys, not the tops. I know not why. The tactile feel of it is even better than the WASD (it very closely mimics the Courier 3270-clone keyboards), but I just can't use the damn thing because my eyes have no point of reference, and I need that even when I touch type. (When I get out of sync, specifically.) From lyndon at orthanc.ca Tue May 31 20:58:00 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 18:58:00 -0700 Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: Since we are moaning about real hardware, is there anything available these days that comes even close to the Logitech ergonomic three button mouse from the mid-late 1990s? The sculpted to fit in your hand model? Before the scroll wheel abomination had been invented? They were a joy to behold, let alone use. I suspect most people here still use the middle mouse button on a regular basis; I'm surprised there isn't more hue and cry about their demise :-) I spend a lot of time using Plan 9, and - on Unix-ish systems - acme. Both of those are simply untenable without B2 on the mouse. The enthusiasts have found a few holdouts - primarily an HP 3-button mouse. But it's made of plastic, and has no mass. The Logitech had *body* to it. You *knew* where it was going when you moved it, and it was comfortable to use all day long. Surprisingly, the closest replacement I found for the big beast was a (Kingston?) bluetooth travel mouse I bought about 10 years ago. It was quite tiny, but that meant it fit very comfortably under my palm. It had the eeevil scroll wheel, but it was very small in proportion to the middle button, so as to be just slightly annoying. And the mouse was dense! It had mass, even before you fed it the pair of AA batteries. Sadly, the buttons on it have packed it in. I think I'll hold a wake for it this weekend ;-) --lyndon P.S. Who has the patent on the logitech mouse? Maybe we can get a Kickstarter campaign going to buy it and roll out another production run!? From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 31 21:25:34 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 19:25:34 -0700 Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <574E479E.2010403@sydex.com> On 05/31/2016 06:58 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Since we are moaning about real hardware, is there anything available > these days that comes even close to the Logitech ergonomic three > button mouse from the mid-late 1990s? The sculpted to fit in your > hand model? Before the scroll wheel abomination had been invented? > They were a joy to behold, let alone use. Nope--I'd feel lost without a scroll wheel. I really miss it on the older mice that I occasionally use. Some scroll-wheel mice also employ the wheel as a third-button--just push down on it. I've been using a Genius PS/2 laser mouse for a few years and like it very much. No "gunk" in the ball issues. I have a couple of CH Product trackballs that were ridiculously expensive for the time. They come in handy when there's no room for a mouse. --Chuck From lyndon at orthanc.ca Tue May 31 21:43:45 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 19:43:45 -0700 Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: <574E479E.2010403@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> <574E479E.2010403@sydex.com> Message-ID: <640AA382-37BF-4826-B20D-AEFBAEB7680B@orthanc.ca> > On May 31, 2016, at 7:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Some scroll-wheel mice also employ > the wheel as a third-button--just push down on it. No, that "button" in the middle is B2, as anyone from the original days of the 3-button mouse knows. The perversions that Microsoft foisted on the masses aside, on a real three button mouse, the buttons are numbered 1 through 3, from index to ring finger. The bastardized Microsoft 2-button mouse has no canonical mapping to the 3-button variant. From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Tue May 31 21:54:20 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 20:54:20 -0600 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > > I only use Model M keyboards. I have one for my Linux box, one for my > Mac, and one for the office Mac. I have about five more sitting in the > closet of the home office on standby, and I think I have a box of keyboards > in storage. I have a couple of Model M boards, and a Unix layout Unicomp clone (with Ctrl and caps lock in the right positions). My favorite by far though is the 5150 and XT 83-key. Much heavier, and the sound and feel are more to my liking, as well as the left side function keys. I really want to get an XT to PS/2 adapter and one of those boards (model F, if memory serves), but prices are so high that other expenses always seem to take precedence. I was never bothered in the slightest by the small enter key or the need to use num lock regularly. -- *John P. Willis* Coherent Logic Development LLC M: 575.520.9542 O: 575.524.1034 chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com http://www.coherent-logic.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 31 22:16:47 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 20:16:47 -0700 Subject: Keyboards and Mice (was Model M, NEC ProSpeed) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <574E539F.80508@sydex.com> I've got a pile of old mice, both 1- (Apple, of course), 2- and 3-button, serial, RS232 ADB, USB and PS2. I can't recall ever needing to use or using the middle button a 3-button mouse. I did train myself early on to use the mouse left-handed or right-handed. When working with graphics, a mouse is a killer for RSD for me. I've got trackballs (CH Products) as well as a couple of Cirque Glidepoint pads and briefly toyed with getting a foot-operated mouse wheel-thing. None of the alternatives worked as well as a plain old mouse. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 31 22:35:25 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 22:35:25 -0500 Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <574E57FD.2050405@pico-systems.com> On 05/31/2016 08:58 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Since we are moaning about real hardware, is there anything available these days that comes even close to the Logitech ergonomic three button mouse from the mid-late 1990s? The sculpted to fit in your hand model? Before the scroll wheel abomination had been invented? They were a joy to behold, let alone use. > > I still use the Logitech 3-button "stationary mouse", ie. trackball. They are getting harder to find. Jon From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:46:19 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 22:46:19 -0500 Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: <574E57FD.2050405@pico-systems.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> <574E57FD.2050405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: anyone remeber the 2 button logitech mouse mouse? On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:35 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/31/2016 08:58 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > >> Since we are moaning about real hardware, is there anything available >> these days that comes even close to the Logitech ergonomic three button >> mouse from the mid-late 1990s? The sculpted to fit in your hand model? >> Before the scroll wheel abomination had been invented? They were a joy to >> behold, let alone use. >> >> >> I still use the Logitech 3-button "stationary mouse", ie. trackball. > They are getting harder to find. > > Jon > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:57:23 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 20:57:23 -0700 Subject: Monster 6502 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What a great idea! Monstrous indeed, in a good way. Somehow I missed it at Maker Faire while I was rolling around with my R2-D2. Hopefully I will see it at VCF West! Marc > On May 27, 2016, at 8:15 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Here is a video of it running at Maker Faire > > http://makezine.com/2016/05/27/this-functioning-monster-6502-is-a-larger-than-life-version-of-the-iconic-microchip/ > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue May 31 23:42:44 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 00:42:44 -0400 Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> <574E479E.2010403@sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 10:25 PM Subject: Re: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) > On 05/31/2016 06:58 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: >> Since we are moaning about real hardware, is there anything available >> these days that comes even close to the Logitech ergonomic three >> button mouse from the mid-late 1990s? The sculpted to fit in your >> hand model? Before the scroll wheel abomination had been invented? >> They were a joy to behold, let alone use. > > Nope--I'd feel lost without a scroll wheel. I really miss it on the > older mice that I occasionally use. Some scroll-wheel mice also employ > the wheel as a third-button--just push down on it. > > I've been using a Genius PS/2 laser mouse for a few years and like it > very much. No "gunk" in the ball issues. > > I have a couple of CH Product trackballs that were ridiculously > expensive for the time. They come in handy when there's no room for a > mouse. > > --Chuck ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Agree 100% Laser mouse is the way to go; the only place for a ball is in a trackball (some of which had 3 buttons IIRC; I'll have to check). But when there's no room on the desktop for a mouse you can always use your shirt/trousers/whatever for a mouse pad, although some colours don't work very well.. As to the scroll-wheel button, in many places it actually replaces the scroll wheel in a way; sort of like Scroll Lock in that once it's activated the mouse moves the screen 'window' up/down AND left/right. Often much quicker than the scroll wheel. Hmm... my main objection to a trackball is the missing scroll wheel, but if it has three buttons and you could redefine the middle one you wouldn't really need the wheel... will have to check that out. As to keyboards, I like the M2, buckling springs like the M but lighter and quieter; I do find that I make a lot fewer typos with those. And of course keyboards and mice have to be cordless ;-) m From pete at petelancashire.com Tue May 31 17:00:12 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 15:00:12 -0700 Subject: Classic keyboard (and fonts) (Was: NEC ProSpeed 386 In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <574DCB8C.7020803@sydex.com> Message-ID: I think I'm using an M. The label was removed long ago. At home I have a couple of the version that came with an industrialized version that went with ditto rack mount PS/2 of some flavor. The company I worked at was buying around 20 a month and even though the product they went into never used the keyboard or mouse, you got the who package. Keyboard, mouse, PS/2 on floppies even though it had a CD reader, etc etc. The only thing different on the keyboard and mouse was the color was a dark gray. On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 31 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM >> Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. >> >> Windows key? What Windows key? ;) > > The one with the picture of a dry-rot window Do you mean [Ctrl[Esc]? > > > Best way to represent the above? > 30? years ago, I created a special key-top font for discussing keystrokes in > documentation. IIRC, I had two versions of [Ctrl], [Alt], and [Shft] One > version had no right hand edge, to reinforce the idea that it was used in > combination with another key. LJ/DJ and Cordata, never got around to > completing a postscript version, nor Truetype, when that came along. > > I also did LJ/DJ and Cordata screen printing fonts. Used, mostly as full > screen images, along with my TSR, for a lot of Sybex books. > regular, inverse, and bold, in a couple of resolutions, such as 9x12. > Did you know that according to HP, it is "IMPOSSIBLE" to print an inverse > font? I'm glad that I didn't know until after I succeeded. (Wiley E. Coyote > principle of project implementation). > Never did come up with a good representation for blinkking text. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > >