From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jan 1 01:29:48 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 07:29:48 +0000 Subject: [SPOILERS] Re: Targeting Computers in X wing fighters. In-Reply-To: <5685EA58.7060103@jwsss.com> References: <56850D30.40503@btinternet.com> <56859973.4010207@bitsavers.org> <5685EA58.7060103@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <56862AEC.1030705@btinternet.com> On 01/01/2016 02:54, jwsmobile wrote: > Some people are waiting for the nuts to quit filing theaters. Please > don't discuss w/o a warning as Al placed on the line (or if someone > else did, I've not gotten that message). > > It is ill mannered at best. > > Happy New Year, > > don't mess up the movie for someone. > > On 12/31/2015 1:09 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 12/31/15 3:10 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> Hi >>> Went to Starwars last night. >> >> Thanks a lot. >> >> I should have known better than to open a message with that subject. >> >> >> > Ooops! I'm in the UK and saw it at a half empty seniors showing. Its been running here for two weeks. The whole thing has been sliced and diced in the press. If you feel a restriction is needed then unless a time period is stated then its a nonsense. Rod From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 00:50:25 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2016 01:50:25 -0500 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> On 12/28/2015 03:25 PM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 28 Dec 2015, Paul Berger wrote: > >> On 2015-12-28 12:13 PM, geneb wrote: >>> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015, Mike wrote: >>> >>>> Would you buy the new Commodore 64 ? ? ? >>>> >>> No. The company folded years ago after the founder and driving >>> force behind the whole mess, died. >>> >>> g. >>> >> The man who founded Commodore, Jack Tramiel resigned from the company >> in 1984, Commodore went on for another 10 years before declaring >> bankruptcy in 1994. Tramiel died of heart failure in 2012. > > I'm well aware of that (as are most if not all Commodore nerds). I > was referring to the guy that stood up Commodore USA to build PCs in a > similar form factor to the original breadbox C-64. He died > unexpectedly and the company folded. It would have likely done so > anyway, but Barry Altman's untimely death hastened it. > > Don't try to teach your grandmother how to steal sheep. > > g. > > Thank you G for the info that guy was quite young. . . So now I guess Ill buy the SD card addon but the only problem is that I have seen you can only use a 2 gig SD card in them is that right? From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 00:53:31 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2016 01:53:31 -0500 Subject: Castlevaina for the Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <226E0519-CAEB-4A1B-9781-664C38C4A28A@gmail.com> References: <56692342.6060204@gmail.com> <226E0519-CAEB-4A1B-9781-664C38C4A28A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5686226B.60208@gmail.com> On 12/12/2015 05:47 AM, Mike wrote: > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 10, 2015, at 2:55 AM, "drlegendre ." wrote: >> >> Hey Mike, >> >> Thanks, but I don't know if I need the codes, they are probably posted >> online? In any case, I found the game in my archive, so I attached it for >> you.. >> >> It's in a zip file, containing one or two .D64 disk images. It's probably >> cracked, so you shouldn't need any kind of passwords, I'd think? I tried >> it, and it boots up on my emulator.. >> >> -Bill >> >>> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 1:01 AM, Mike wrote: >>> >>> I have a mint copy with all the passwords if you need a copy of the >>> passwords let me know I am going to have to type them in because they >>> are printed on DARK brown paper with black text you cant scan it I tried >>> so let me know if any of ya need them... >>> >>> Also it surprisingly has pretty good graphics for the first version of >>> Castlevaina or I think it is... > Thanks Bill. Have a blessed day... Hey bill is there any way you could teach me how to make a copy of the main disk every time I have tiered using maverick it never boots? From jason at smbfc.net Fri Jan 1 10:46:13 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 08:46:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845E21.1000700@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Dec 2015, Ian S. King wrote: > I've had CL in Seattle for years with minimal disruptions. Nothing > compared to my friends/colleagues with ComCrap. > I agree, I'm just north of Seattle, in Lake Forest Park. With CL DSL I'm stuck at 5MB/800K. Honestly, the 800K uplink is the real killer, 5MB down isn't awful, unless I'M trying to download an ISO or something -- in which case I can usually wait until I get to work (The UW has some fat pipes). The service is quite relable -- I think the Arris modem then sent me is shit, but that's a different issue. Talking to some line techs in the neighborhood and confirming with CL customer service, CL fiber is supposedly coming to my neighborhood in the next 6 months. I'm not sure I believe it. The one really interesting thing about DSL, which has me wondering if I should keep it is that a fixed IP only costs like an extra $2/month. With any newer offering, (fiber/cable) I've seen that go as high as $20/month -- Jason Sent from my Atari 800 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 1 12:28:14 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 10:28:14 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845E21.1000700@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5686C53E.2060607@sydex.com> On 01/01/2016 08:46 AM, Jason Howe wrote: > I agree, I'm just north of Seattle, in Lake Forest Park. With CL DSL > I'm stuck at 5MB/800K. Honestly, the 800K uplink is the real > killer, 5MB down isn't awful, unless I'M trying to download an ISO or > something -- in which case I can usually wait until I get to work > (The UW has some fat pipes). The service is quite relable -- I think > the Arris modem then sent me is shit, but that's a different issue. I've been with CL since the USWest days (just missed the breakup when they were Pacific Northwest Bell). When Qwest picked up the company, I had high hopes, as Qwest's big business at the time was laying fiber along railroad rights-of-way. I'm just a few miles outside of Eugene, so it's not exactly like I'm in the boonies, but lot size minimum here is 5 or 10 acres, so even if you go with the minimum, folks are pretty spread out. I didn't get DSL until 2005, when it was finally installed as part of a service expansion on a bit of land I sold Qwest--only after I received assurances that DSL would be part of the deal. Otherwise, POTS modem service would have been 28.8-33.6K on a good day. There are still some folks up the road who are *closer* to town who don't have DSL. No cable here--if you wanted DSL-speed internet, Hughes satellite was about the only option. Sprint offered to bring T1 up the road for $1k per moth, but I'm not certain how serious they were about that. This summer, crews installed a fiber feed to the DSLAM and a bunch of new equipment went into the boxes. It took them from May well into September, with various contractors involved. (C2 to do the prep, like concrete cutting, Maverick to to the line stringing, and both C2 and CL to do the wire punching). In November CL sent me an Actiontec C1000A, free gratis to replace that M1000 which replaced the GT701-WG for my "new high-speed service". Nothing happened, and my M1000 still owrks just fine, but I've got the C1000A installed, hoping against hope. So maybe one of these days. I found out some interesting things along the way. CL provides free DSL to their employees, but dings them $10 per month for modem rental, which, in most cases, is an old Zyxel that hasn't been made in years. They were delighted to discover from me that you can get refurbed Qwest-branded C1000As from China for about $26 shipped. (I hate relying on a single modem, so I ordered an extra myself--works just fine). CL Technical support really doesn't know very much, other than "unplug the modem and plug it in again"--TS appears to come out of Omaha. Marketing knows even less than TS (appears to be out of Phoenix) and is not even aware of promotional deals. "Loyalty" or "Promotions" or "Retention" or "Pricing" (they're all the same thing) are the people to deal with. Not only do they seem to know what's happening (the guy I talked to identified the location of the DSLAM and its current status), but they can tinker with your bill. After hearing my tale of woe, they apologized for the fake service changes and tossed in a $15/month credit for a year for my trouble. AFAIK, any of the above can cut a service order. All three agreed that doing a service change online was a bad idea--one of the more common complaints seems to be that orders get lost. So maybe I'll get out of the 1.5/0.800 "Neanderthal" service one of these days. I hope my story helps out other CL customers. --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 1 13:03:58 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 13:03:58 -0600 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> On 1/1/2016 12:50 AM, Mike wrote: > Thank you G for the info that guy was quite young. . . So now I guess > Ill buy the SD card addon but the only problem is that I have seen you > can only use a 2 gig SD card in them is that right? Can you clarify? I'm not aware of a SD card add-on for the C64 that can only do 2GB SD cards. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From js at cimmeri.com Fri Jan 1 13:24:55 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2016 14:24:55 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5686C53E.2060607@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845E21.1000700@sydex.com> <5686C53E.2060607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5686D287.8050207@cimmeri.com> On 1/1/2016 1:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ... > > So maybe I'll get out of the 1.5/0.800 > "Neanderthal" service one of these > days. I hope my story helps out other > CL customers. > > --Chuck Oh, don't feel too bad. I've only got 3.0/1.0 via Comcast cable on this semi rural small mountain I live on. But, I'm happy with it given my bill is $59 / month with basic TV service (that I don't use). - J. From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Jan 1 13:31:13 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 14:31:13 -0500 Subject: Yet another batch of VCF videos Message-ID: <5686D401.40203@snarc.net> Today we posted the videos from East 5.0. Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_e5fSxflvrxnBFCeLI_uLqQHJBmghA2g. In the past week or two, we also posted the videos from East 6.0 and 9(.1). Videos from 7.0 and 10.0 will be ready soon. East 8.0 is in the hopper, and we're trying to see if we have the footage from 3.0 and 4.0. After that, we hope to process the VCF West videos (and East 1.0/2.0, which were run by Sellam out west). From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 1 13:52:10 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 11:52:10 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5686D287.8050207@cimmeri.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845E21.1000700@sydex.com> <5686C53E.2060607@sydex.com> <5686D287.8050207@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <5686D8EA.8080806@sydex.com> On 01/01/2016 11:24 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Oh, don't feel too bad. I've only got 3.0/1.0 via Comcast cable on > this semi rural small mountain I live on. But, I'm happy with it > given my bill is $59 / month with basic TV service (that I don't > use). Now you've done it. For my phone and internet bundle, I pay $83/month--and that's with a $15 "lifetime" package discount from 2005 tossed in. I was amazed that were I to change to the lowest tier of POTS service and add "Caller ID" ($10/month) and lowest level DSL, my bill would be roughly the same after taxes. I'm amazed that "caller ID" costs CL anything, but it's one of the highest-priced add-ons. BTW, I'm also paying $2/month for long-distance service to Mexico, even though I've never called nor received a call from there. Sigh. Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 1 13:54:53 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 11:54:53 -0800 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> On 01/01/2016 11:03 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 1/1/2016 12:50 AM, Mike wrote: >> Thank you G for the info that guy was quite young. . . So now I >> guess Ill buy the SD card addon but the only problem is that I have >> seen you can only use a 2 gig SD card in them is that right? > Can you clarify? I'm not aware of a SD card add-on for the C64 that > can only do 2GB SD cards. I've seen this on digicams with CF cards. 2GB is the "official" limit to FAT16 filesystems. However, XP and later can format 4GB cards to FAT16 as well--and it seems to work very well with my older cameras, which do not understand FAT32. --Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Fri Jan 1 14:25:23 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2016 15:25:23 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5686D8EA.8080806@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845E21.1000700@sydex.com> <5686C53E.2060607@sydex.com> <5686D287.8050207@cimmeri.com> <5686D8EA.8080806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5686E0B3.2080500@cimmeri.com> On 1/1/2016 2:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/01/2016 11:24 AM, js at cimmeri.com > wrote: > >> Oh, don't feel too bad. I've only >> got 3.0/1.0 via Comcast cable on >> this semi rural small mountain I live >> on. But, I'm happy with it >> given my bill is $59 / month with >> basic TV service (that I don't >> use). > > > Now you've done it. For my phone and > internet bundle, I pay $83/month--and > that's with a $15 "lifetime" package > discount from 2005 tossed in. > > I was amazed that were I to change to > the lowest tier of POTS service and > add "Caller ID" ($10/month) and lowest > level DSL, my bill would be roughly > the same after taxes. I'm amazed that > "caller ID" costs CL anything, but > it's one of the highest-priced > add-ons. BTW, I'm also paying > $2/month for long-distance service to > Mexico, even though I've never called > nor received a call from there. > > Sigh. > Chuck Well, once you add in my $39 Vonage VOIP unlimited local & long distance telephone, now I'm at $98 for phone+internet+cable... so you're making out better than I am (unless you watch TV and are paying for that also). - J. From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 1 14:25:51 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 14:25:51 -0600 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5686E0CF.6080409@jbrain.com> On 1/1/2016 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/01/2016 11:03 AM, Jim Brain wrote: >> On 1/1/2016 12:50 AM, Mike wrote: >>> Thank you G for the info that guy was quite young. . . So now I >>> guess Ill buy the SD card addon but the only problem is that I have >>> seen you can only use a 2 gig SD card in them is that right? >> Can you clarify? I'm not aware of a SD card add-on for the C64 that >> can only do 2GB SD cards. > > I've seen this on digicams with CF cards. 2GB is the "official" limit > to FAT16 filesystems. However, XP and later can format 4GB cards to > FAT16 as well--and it seems to work very well with my older cameras, > which do not understand FAT32. > > --Chuck > I understand that, but the OP was talking about a SD card add-on (I assume for the 64) that only accepts 2GB cards. AFAIK, all of them accept FAT32 now. Since I sell one of the variants, and I have snarky people ask me how big a SD card mine will handle, I have here a 64 with a 128GB SD-card equipped drive :-). Works fine, though the root dir listing takes a LOOONG time :-) (Yes, the card came formatted as exFAT, which is not supported. Luckily, it is trivial to format a SD card as FAT32 no matter the size) Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 1 14:36:41 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 12:36:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've seen this on digicams with CF cards. 2GB is the "official" limit to > FAT16 filesystems. However, XP and later can format 4GB cards to FAT16 as > well--and it seems to work very well with my older cameras, which do not > understand FAT32. While, at the time, 2G seemed "infinite", even then, I was amused at the 2G limitation being due to the use of a SIGNED 32 bit number. The size can be anywhere from -2147483648 to 2147483647. By switching to an UNSIGNED 32, NT and the like made the limit 4G. I had a few hard drives that were getting crowded, so I stomped on DIRectory entries on some floppies and made some files with negative file sizes. I confirmed empirically that copying a file with a negative size to the drive did NOT increase free space. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 1 14:50:21 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 12:50:21 -0800 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <5686E0CF.6080409@jbrain.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> <5686E0CF.6080409@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5686E68D.8040709@sydex.com> On 01/01/2016 12:25 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > I understand that, but the OP was talking about a SD card add-on (I > assume for the 64) that only accepts 2GB cards. AFAIK, all of them > accept FAT32 now. Since I sell one of the variants, and I have > snarky people ask me how big a SD card mine will handle, I have here > a 64 with a 128GB SD-card equipped drive :-). Works fine, though the > root dir listing takes a LOOONG time :-) Oh, okay--based on experience with older gear, I was curious if it was a FAT16/32 issue. If that 128GB SD card is such a bother, I'll trade a 2MB CF card for it--it shouldn't take very long for a directory listing... :) --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Fri Jan 1 14:51:58 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 12:51:58 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5686E0B3.2080500@cimmeri.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845E21.1000700@sydex.com> <5686C53E.2060607@sydex.com> <5686D287.8050207@cimmeri.com> <5686D8EA.8080806@sydex.com> <5686E0B3.2080500@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: I had 7/5 here in Seattle, until I made the mistake of trusting the CL sales turkeys. I ended up with 20Mb down, but 896Kb up. The sales turkey flat-out lied to me, but they wouldn't revert me - something about my former plan being an "out of date" class of service. On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 12:25 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 1/1/2016 2:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 01/01/2016 11:24 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> >> Oh, don't feel too bad. I've only got 3.0/1.0 via Comcast cable on >>> this semi rural small mountain I live on. But, I'm happy with it >>> given my bill is $59 / month with basic TV service (that I don't >>> use). >>> >> >> >> Now you've done it. For my phone and internet bundle, I pay >> $83/month--and that's with a $15 "lifetime" package discount from 2005 >> tossed in. >> >> I was amazed that were I to change to the lowest tier of POTS service and >> add "Caller ID" ($10/month) and lowest level DSL, my bill would be roughly >> the same after taxes. I'm amazed that "caller ID" costs CL anything, but >> it's one of the highest-priced add-ons. BTW, I'm also paying $2/month for >> long-distance service to Mexico, even though I've never called nor received >> a call from there. >> >> Sigh. >> Chuck >> > > Well, once you add in my $39 Vonage VOIP unlimited local & long distance > telephone, now I'm at $98 for phone+internet+cable... so you're making out > better than I am (unless you watch TV and are paying for that also). > > - J. > > > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 1 14:52:02 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 14:52:02 -0600 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5686E6F2.3080203@jbrain.com> On 1/1/2016 2:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 1 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I've seen this on digicams with CF cards. 2GB is the "official" limit >> to FAT16 filesystems. However, XP and later can format 4GB cards to >> FAT16 as well--and it seems to work very well with my older cameras, >> which do not understand FAT32. > > While, at the time, 2G seemed "infinite", even then, I was amused at > the 2G limitation being due to the use of a SIGNED 32 bit number. The > size can be anywhere from -2147483648 to 2147483647. > By switching to an UNSIGNED 32, NT and the like made the limit 4G. > I think it was actually the sectors per cluster number, which was -64 to 63, I believe and then got changed to 0-128, meaning cluster sizes of 128 512-byte sectors, or 64K clusters I know folks will hate on the format, but I am extremely impressed with the FAT format. To go all the way from floppies to 4TB drives is impressive. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 1 14:58:22 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 12:58:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <5686E68D.8040709@sydex.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> <5686E0CF.6080409@jbrain.com> <5686E68D.8040709@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If that 128GB SD card is such a bother, I'll trade a 2MB CF card for it--it > shouldn't take very long for a directory listing... :) I'll raise that 2MB offer to a 2GB card! (is Micro-SD + adapter OK?) When it seemed likely that 2G would be going away, I stocked up on some for the few devices that relally couldn't handle >31 bit memory address. From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 15:12:42 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 15:12:42 -0600 Subject: [SPOILERS] Re: Targeting Computers in X wing fighters. In-Reply-To: References: <56850D30.40503@btinternet.com> <56859973.4010207@bitsavers.org> <5685EA58.7060103@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20160101211241.GB96434@gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 31, 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, jwsmobile wrote: > >Some people are waiting for the nuts to quit filing theaters. Please don't > >discuss w/o a warning as Al placed on the line (or if someone else did, > >I've not gotten that message). > >It is ill mannered at best. > > OK > But, I probably won't see it for a few years, until it reaches TV. > Theater captioning is rarely adequate) > > One quick [non-spoiler?] question: Is it a remake? Or is it another in the > "series"? (if so, earlier? later?) I just saw it last night for the first time, and since then I've been reading reviews (which I was avoiding before). It seems to be the concensus (and I agree) that it's somewhere in between a sequel and a reboot/remake. It definitely has a lot of elements parallelling the first movie, but on the other hand it clearly takes place after Return of the Jedi and has some of the same characters in appropriately older roles. > > > I've seen some lousy remakes of good movies, and then the original is > virtually never seen again. OTOH, there have been SOME OK remakes that were > better than mediocre movies they were based on. I just wish that remakes > would have some sort of designation in the title that makes the original and > the remake differentiable by more than copyright date. > When is the "Casablanca" remake due out? > > -- Eric Christopherson From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 1 14:57:10 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 12:57:10 -0800 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5686E826.6010401@sydex.com> On 01/01/2016 12:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > While, at the time, 2G seemed "infinite", even then, I was amused at > the 2G limitation being due to the use of a SIGNED 32 bit number. > The size can be anywhere from -2147483648 to 2147483647. By switching > to an UNSIGNED 32, NT and the like made the limit 4G. > > I had a few hard drives that were getting crowded, so I stomped on > DIRectory entries on some floppies and made some files with negative > file sizes. I confirmed empirically that copying a file with a > negative size to the drive did NOT increase free space. I was under the impression that, in FAT16, 2GB was still the limit to *file* size, but a 4GB *volume* size was okay. It, as far as I know, isn't so much a limitation on 32-bit numbers, but rather the combination of the FAT and cluster sizes that dooms it. What's funny is that in the old pre MS-DOS 3.3 days, one of the ways to trick DOS into supporting larger volumes was to increase the (apparent) sector size with code to block up 512 byte sectors into larger (1024, 2048, etc.) apparent ones--and a few DOS patches. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 1 15:28:54 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 13:28:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <5686E6F2.3080203@jbrain.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> <5686E6F2.3080203@jbrain.com> Message-ID: >> While, at the time, 2G seemed "infinite", even then, I was amused at the 2G >> limitation being due to the use of a SIGNED 32 bit number. The size can be >> anywhere from -2147483648 to 2147483647. >> By switching to an UNSIGNED 32, NT and the like made the limit 4G. On Fri, 1 Jan 2016, Jim Brain wrote: > I think it was actually the sectors per cluster number, which was -64 to 63, > I believe and then got changed to 0-128, meaning cluster sizes of 128 > 512-byte sectors, or 64K clusters Quite likely more than one place with limits. It seems likely. There was probably a tendency to treat all numbers as signed. I do know that the 32 bit file size field in the DIRectory entries was processed by some DOS operations, including DIR as a signed number. Replacing those four bytes with FF FF FF FF would result in a reported file size of -1 bytes. Replacing it with 00 00 00 80 (LSB first) gave a reported file size of -2147483648 > I know folks will hate on the format, but I am extremely impressed with the > FAT format. To go all the way from floppies to 4TB drives is impressive. I think that it is just fine. I prefer it over a list of blocks, that might result in needing multiple directory entries, such as CP/M or TRS-DOS. I much prefer it over the need for contiguous space (UCSD p-system) Even the original Macintosh disk format was essentially the same algorithms as MS-DOS FAT. Besides MS-DOS, Microsoft made some "Stand-Alone BASIC" designs that used the same idea of DIRectory and separate linked list. Albeit at seek center instead of track 0. Radio-Shack Color Computer, NEC, Okidata, etc. I've even seen a disk from a Russian computer with that type of format. Some of the histories of MS-DOS say that Tim Paterson, in building his QDOOS ("Quick and Dirty OS") place-holder while waiting for CP/M-86, got the idea for FAT from seeing Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC "for NCR" at Microsoft's West Coast Computer Faire booth. I was at that show, and saw NEC machines with it, but I've never seen an NCR Stand-Alone BASIC - did the histories goof? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 1 15:35:36 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 13:35:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <5686E826.6010401@sydex.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> <5686E826.6010401@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What's funny is that in the old pre MS-DOS 3.3 days, one of the ways to trick > DOS into supporting larger volumes was to increase the (apparent) sector size > with code to block up 512 byte sectors into larger (1024, 2048, etc.) > apparent ones--and a few DOS patches. Another way, starting with PC/MS-DOS 3.10 was using MSCDEX, or equivalent. I think that there used to be some very strange patches around to let a hard drive impersonate a CD-ROM. A CD-ROM (2/3 G) was not a local drive to the OS! It was presented as being a "drive-like" object on a network. That is a VERY LOCAL area network. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jan 1 15:56:03 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2016 15:56:03 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5686D8EA.8080806@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845E21.1000700@sydex.com> <5686C53E.2060607@sydex.com> <5686D287.8050207@cimmeri.com> <5686D8EA.8080806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5686F5F3.4020509@pico-systems.com> On 01/01/2016 01:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm amazed that "caller ID" costs CL anything, but it's > one of the highest-priced add-ons. It clearly costs them NOTHING! It is software on the switch, and the hardware needed to support it is present on every subscriber line. They charge for it because people are willing to pay for it. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 1 15:59:14 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 13:59:14 -0800 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> <5686E826.6010401@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5686F6B2.3050208@sydex.com> On 01/01/2016 01:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Another way, starting with PC/MS-DOS 3.10 was using MSCDEX, or > equivalent. I think that there used to be some very strange patches > around to let a hard drive impersonate a CD-ROM. A CD-ROM (2/3 G) was > not a local drive to the OS! It was presented as being a > "drive-like" object on a network. That is a VERY LOCAL area network. It really was amazing how quickly hard drive sizes overran system vendors' expectations. You'd think that system software authors would anticipate very large drives right from the start. But stumbling along with 16MB, then 32MB drive size limits just illustrates how backward-thinking folks were. CP/M 2.2 had, what, an 8MB hard drive limit initially? That was backward even for 1980. And then you get a surprise every once in awhile. I was incredulous that one of my "devices" had a limit of 2GB on a CF drive, but the thing actually understood a DOS partition table. So you could take a 4GB or more drive, partition off the first 2GB and you're still gold. Can't swap partitions--the thing just takes the first one in the table, but still pretty surprising. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 1 17:28:15 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 15:28:15 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5686F5F3.4020509@pico-systems.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845E21.1000700@sydex.com> <5686C53E.2060607@sydex.com> <5686D287.8050207@cimmeri.com> <5686D8EA.8080806@sydex.com> <5686F5F3.4020509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56870B8F.2040104@sydex.com> On 01/01/2016 01:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 01/01/2016 01:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'm amazed that "caller ID" costs CL anything, but it's one of the >> highest-priced add-ons. > It clearly costs them NOTHING! It is software on the switch, and the > hardware needed to support it is present on every subscriber line. > They charge for it because people are willing to pay for it. ...and thanks to VoIP, junk calls cost the callers nothing--and the FCC claims that they're powerless to halt it. Call blocking from the telco, which probably also costs them nothing, has a low limit on the number of blocked numbers. So it's left to the subscriber to handle the crap like "This is Windows Security--we've noticed suspicious activity from your Windows computer...." or "This is Rachel from cardholder services". And of course, Caller ID is necessary for that. I'm looking forward to VoIP. Right now, I run an old modem and an Windows 98 thin client to handle blocking. It works pretty well--at least it's something that can be done with those high-priced USR Courier modems lingering around from the BBS days. --Chuck From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 19:24:58 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 19:24:58 -0600 Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! In-Reply-To: References: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> <008401d13c7e$9106c1a0$b31444e0$@com> Message-ID: <20160102012457.GC96434@gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 22, 2015, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 1:04 AM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > >> Has any of you took one of them old choose your own adventurer books and coded it into a text RPG in basic? > >> > >> 1. Clear the screen for the next page! > >> > > Clear Screen was CLS, IIRC. > > For TRS-80 BASIC, I think. For Commodore BASIC, it's > > PRINT CHR$(147) > > (you can also type PRINT and a quote and hit SHIFT-CLR HOME and > another quote, which works well when you want to print a string that > starts by clearing the screen and going to the top left corner, then > has other movement and/or text) > > There are a number of Commodore BASIC books out there, and for > beginner stuff, the one that comes with the machine (if you get one in > the box) will get you started. > > -ethan There is a very nice archive of PDFs of Commodore books, including programming ones, at . Here's another one, with several books specifically on text adventures: . And of course there are others at . I remember in my younger days having fun modifying the game "Emerald Elephant of Cipangu" from this Ahoy! issue 10 (October 1984): . It was pretty close to a choose-your-own-adventure; no Infocom-style multi-word parser or anything. I also remember a game in what I think was a COMPUTE! compilation, where you played someone stuck on an enemy spaceship; but I can't seem to find it right now. -- Eric Christopherson From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 19:35:16 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 19:35:16 -0600 Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! In-Reply-To: <5679A7A6.6080309@gmail.com> References: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> <008401d13c7e$9106c1a0$b31444e0$@com> <5679A7A6.6080309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160102013515.GD96434@gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 22, 2015, Mike wrote: > IN Qbasic there is a SLEEP command as in... > > 10 PRINT " HELLO WHAT IS YOUR NAME? " PNAME$ > 20 CLS > 20 SLEEP=10 <----PAUSE FOR 10 SECONDS > 30 PRINT "HELLO" PNAME$ "yOUR STARTING A ADVENTURE THAT WILL TAKE YOU > THROUGH THE" > 40 PRINT "MISTY MOUNTAINS " > ============================================================= > > How would the sleep function work in basic I have tryed 10 sleeo=10, 10 > "sleep=5" its not working... You have to make a loop that will last a certain amount of time. A common thing was to say something like 20 FOR I=0 TO 100:NEXT -- varying the number after TO to produce a different length of delay. Commodore BASIC is slow, but I'm sure a loop from 0 to 100 won't take anywhere near 10 seconds; you can play around with it. The more complex and more accurate way was to use the TI and TI$ variables to actually count off a given amount of time. If I remember correctly, for 10 seconds it would be like this: 20 TI$="000000" 21 IF TI<(10*60) THEN 21 TI$ is a string that refers to the current system time (time since poweron); the first two digits are hour, the second pair minutes, the last two seconds. TI is a closely-related one that returns the number of jiffies (1/60-second slices) in the system time. 10*60 converts jiffies to seconds. But I wouldn't impose this artificial wait; I certainly wouldn't want to play a game that did that. Maybe you're just trying to make it more period-correct by emulating 1541 loading times, in which case the delay should be much longer ;) -- Eric Christopherson From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 1 21:38:35 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 20:38:35 -0700 Subject: Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029EF8@mail.bensene.com> References: <5685CABB.4040507@dunnington.plus.com> <5685EB10.4030305@sydex.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029EF8@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <5687463B.90602@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/31/2015 8:59 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: >> I'll put it another way: praises to Jay for putting up with this >> bunch of nut-jobs (self included). :-) Happy New Year to all, may >> you find a PDP-6 in your neighbor's barn. -- Ian >> > > I echo Ian's sentiments -- Jay deserves so much praise all he does > for the Classic Computer community. > > While I'd love to find a PDP-6...I'd certainly settle for a KA-10. > Now /that/ would make for an amazing New Year. > > Wishing all of the Classic Computer community health, peace, and > great finds over the coming year. > > -Rick > I guess offers for the Free Cow gets passed by again this year. Ben. From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 22:34:54 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 22:34:54 -0600 Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! In-Reply-To: <20160102012457.GC96434@gmail.com> References: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> <008401d13c7e$9106c1a0$b31444e0$@com> <20160102012457.GC96434@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160102043453.GE96434@gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 01, 2016, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 1:04 AM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > > >> Has any of you took one of them old choose your own adventurer books and coded it into a text RPG in basic? > > >> > > >> 1. Clear the screen for the next page! > > >> > > > Clear Screen was CLS, IIRC. > > > > For TRS-80 BASIC, I think. For Commodore BASIC, it's > > > > PRINT CHR$(147) > > > > (you can also type PRINT and a quote and hit SHIFT-CLR HOME and > > another quote, which works well when you want to print a string that > > starts by clearing the screen and going to the top left corner, then > > has other movement and/or text) > > > > There are a number of Commodore BASIC books out there, and for > > beginner stuff, the one that comes with the machine (if you get one in > > the box) will get you started. > > > > -ethan > > There is a very nice archive of PDFs of Commodore books, including > programming ones, at . > Here's another one, with several books specifically on text adventures: > . And of course there are others at > . > > I remember in my younger days having fun modifying the game "Emerald > Elephant of Cipangu" from this Ahoy! issue 10 (October 1984): > . It was pretty close to a > choose-your-own-adventure; no Infocom-style multi-word parser or > anything. > > I also remember a game in what I think was a COMPUTE! compilation, where > you played someone stuck on an enemy spaceship; but I can't seem to find > it right now. Ah, found it. It's in the _Second Book_: -- Eric Christopherson From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 23:22:56 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 22:22:56 -0700 Subject: HP 16700A/16702A logic analyzer help request - /etc/rc.config.d/netconf file wanted Message-ID: I previously mentioned that the ethernet interface on my HP 16702A is not working. After a lot of messing around, I discovered that the 10baseT interface actually works fine if I log in as root (after jailbreaking it), and manually configure the interface. The problem seems to be with the /etc/rc.config.d/netconf file, which was trying to configure the lan1 interface, which doesn't exist. It should configure lan0. I edited the file to use lan0, and now when I boot the analyzer, it still reports errors, and still won't let me do the GUI lan configuration, but the interface actually works. Could someone with a 16700A or 16702A please make available a copy of their /etc/rc.config.d/netconf file for comparison? Thanks! Eric From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 23:35:16 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 21:35:16 -0800 Subject: HP 16700A/16702A logic analyzer help request - /etc/rc.config.d/netconf file wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you get stuck you could always try attaching a spare SCSI hard drive and installing the system software from scratch. I should be able to supply a copy of the requested file tomorrow if someone else doesn't first. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 2 00:19:19 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 22:19:19 -0800 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> <568621B1.3090006@gmail.com> <5686CD9E.3010007@jbrain.com> <5686D98D.5050000@sydex.com> <5686E826.6010401@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56876BE7.3010308@sydex.com> On 01/01/2016 01:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Another way, starting with PC/MS-DOS 3.10 was using MSCDEX, or > equivalent. I think that there used to be some very strange patches > around to let a hard drive impersonate a CD-ROM. A CD-ROM (2/3 G) was > not a local drive to the OS! It was presented as being a > "drive-like" object on a network. That is a VERY LOCAL area network. Yup, DOS networking "hooks". The interesting thing is that DOS doesn't deal with allocation or nasty things like that--all of the file access is essentially in the network interface. I did a couple of those drivers for some really strange (sector != multiple of 256) alien filesystems. --Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 09:24:02 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 11:24:02 -0400 Subject: HP 16700A/16702A logic analyzer help request - /etc/rc.config.d/netconf file wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5687EB92.6050802@gmail.com> On 2016-01-02 1:22 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I previously mentioned that the ethernet interface on my HP 16702A is > not working. After a lot of messing around, I discovered that the > 10baseT interface actually works fine if I log in as root (after > jailbreaking it), and manually configure the interface. > > The problem seems to be with the /etc/rc.config.d/netconf file, which > was trying to configure the lan1 interface, which doesn't exist. It > should configure lan0. I edited the file to use lan0, and now when I > boot the analyzer, it still reports errors, and still won't let me do > the GUI lan configuration, but the interface actually works. > > Could someone with a 16700A or 16702A please make available a copy of > their /etc/rc.config.d/netconf file for comparison? > > Thanks! > Eric Here is the neconf from my 16700A it is set up for DHCP and my network starts up fine. Paul. -------------- next part -------------- # netconf: configuration values for core networking subsystems # # @(#) $Revision: 1.4.116.4 $ $Date: 96/01/22 14:56:43 $ # # HOSTNAME: Name of your system for uname -S and hostname # # OPERATING_SYSTEM: Name of operating system returned by uname -s # ---- DO NOT CHANGE THIS VALUE ---- # # LOOPBACK_ADDRESS: Loopback address # ---- DO NOT CHANGE THIS VALUE ---- # # IMPORTANT: for 9.x-to-10.0 transition, do not put blank lines between # the next set of statements HOSTNAME=HP16700 OPERATING_SYSTEM=HP-UX LOOPBACK_ADDRESS=127.0.0.1 # Internet configuration parameters. See ifconfig(1m), lanconfig(1m) # # INTERFACE_NAME: Network interface name (see lanscan(1m)) # INTERFACE NAME MUST ALWAYS BE ADJACENT TO THE LEFT # EDGE OF THE FILE. saveINTERFACE_NAME MUST ALSO BE # ADJACENT TO THE LEFT EDGE OF THE FILE WITH NO SPACES # BEFORE IT!!! It is used in SysCmds.c, as well as by # /etc/init.d/net. # # IP_ADDRESS: IP address in decimal-dot notation (e.g., 192.1.2.3) # # SUBNET_MASK: Subnetwork mask in decimal-dot notation, if different # from default # # BROADCAST_ADDRESS: Broadcast address in decimal-dot notation, if # different from default # # LANCONFIG_ARGS: Link-layer encapsulation methods (e.g., ieee, ether). # See lanconfig(1m) for details. # # DHCP_ENABLE Determines whether or not DHCP will be enabled on the # network interface (see auto_parms(1M), dhcpclient(1M)) # 1 enables DHCP; 0 disables DHCP. # # For each additional network interfaces, add a set of variable assignments # like the ones below, changing the index to "[1]", "[2]" et cetera. # # IMPORTANT: for 9.x-to-10.0 transition, do not put blank lines between # the next set of statements #INTERFACE NAME MUST ALWAYS BE ADJACENT TO THE LEFT #EDGE OF THE FILE. saveINTERFACE_NAME MUST ALSO BE #ADJACENT TO THE LEFT EDGE OF THE FILE WITH NO SPACES #BEFORE IT!!! It is used in SysCmds.c, as well as by #/sbin/init.d/net. IP_ADDRESS[0]=192.168.1.150 SUBNET_MASK[0]=255.255.255.0 BROADCAST_ADDRESS[0]=192.168.1.255 LANCONFIG_ARGS[0]=ether DHCP_ENABLE[0]=1 # Internet routing configuration. See route(1m), routing(7) # # ROUTE_DESTINATION: Destination host or network IP address in # decimal-dot notation, preceded by the word # "host" or "net"; or simply the word "default". # # ROUTE_MASK: Subnetwork mask in decimal-dot notation, or C language # hexadecimal notation. This is an optional field. # A IP address, subnet mask pair uniquely identifies # a subnet to be reached. If a subnet mask is not given, # then the system will assign the longest subnet mask # of the configured network interfaces to this route. # If there is no matching subnet mask, then the system # will assign the default network mask as the route's # subnet mask. # # ROUTE_GATEWAY: Gateway IP address in decimal-dot notation. # If local interface, must use the same form # as used for IP_ADDRESS above. # # ROUTE_COUNT: An integer that indicates whether the gateway is a # remote interface (one) or the local interface (zero). # # ROUTE_ARGS: Route command arguments and options. This variable # may contain a combination of the following arguments: # "-f", "-n" and "-p pmtu". # # For each additional route, add a set of variable assignments like the ones # below, changing the index to "[1]", "[2]" et cetera. # # IMPORTANT: for 9.x-to-10.0 transition, do not put blank lines between # the next set of statements ROUTE_DESTINATION[0]=default ROUTE_MASK[0]="" ROUTE_GATEWAY[0]=192.168.1.1 ROUTE_COUNT[0]=1 ROUTE_ARGS[0]="" # Dynamic routing daemon configuration. See gated(1m) # # GATED: Set to 1 to start gated daemon. # GATED_ARGS: Arguments to the gated daemon. GATED=0 GATED_ARGS="" # # Router Discover Protocol daemon configuration. See rdpd(1m) # # RDPD: Set to 1 to start rdpd daemon # RDPD=0 # # Reverse Address Resolution Protocol daemon configuration. See rarpd(1m) # # RARPD: Set to 1 to start rarpd daemon # RARPD=0 NODENAME=HP16700 INTERFACE_NAME[0]=lan0 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 2 14:28:53 2016 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 20:28:53 -0000 Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! References: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> <008401d13c7e$9106c1a0$b31444e0$@com> <5679A7A6.6080309@gmail.com> <20160102013515.GD96434@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006f01d1459c$3f2acf80$0286030a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Christopherson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2016 1:35 AM Subject: Re: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015, Mike wrote: > > IN Qbasic there is a SLEEP command as in... > > > > 10 PRINT " HELLO WHAT IS YOUR NAME? " PNAME$ > > 20 CLS > > 20 SLEEP=10 <----PAUSE FOR 10 SECONDS > > 30 PRINT "HELLO" PNAME$ "yOUR STARTING A ADVENTURE THAT WILL TAKE YOU > > THROUGH THE" > > 40 PRINT "MISTY MOUNTAINS " > > ============================================================= > > > > How would the sleep function work in basic I have tryed 10 sleeo=10, 10 > > "sleep=5" its not working... > > You have to make a loop that will last a certain amount of time. A > common thing was to say something like > > 20 FOR I=0 TO 100:NEXT > I'm not sure which version of Basic Mike is trying to use, but Spectrum Basic (atleast the 128K variety) had a Wait instruction, for example: 200 Wait 50 : Rem wait 1 second 210 Rem do something here... Where the number following the Wait instruction indicated the number of 50ths of a second to wait (I suspect that would have been 60ths of a second for the Timex Sinclair models, if they had BASIC). Regards, Andrew Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk www.aliensrcooluk.com From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 16:20:00 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 16:20:00 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <002201d1426e$8ce32ff0$a6a98fd0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <5682DA13.5030606@gmail.com> <002201d1426e$8ce32ff0$a6a98fd0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20160102221959.GF96434@gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015, Jay West wrote: > Jules wrote.... > > -----Original Message----- > I've wondered occasionally what happened to ghetto blasters > ----------- > > They have just gotten facelifts. Here's one I use: > > http://www.boschtools.com/products/tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=P > B360S > > And I must say... an awesome "tool", necessary for any jobsite ;) Too bad they didn't make it look like a 3D projection of a hypercube... they came SO close! -- Eric Christopherson From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jan 2 17:18:52 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 12:18:52 +1300 Subject: Experiences with a composite video mod for a Sinclair ZX81 Message-ID: Going through and testing the collection over this Xmas period also prods me into doing mods I've procrastinated about. A very simple mod but here is a write up for anyone who is interested... http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-01-03-composite-video-for-zx81.htm Terry (Tez) From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 17:48:32 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 17:48:32 -0600 Subject: Experiences with a composite video mod for a Sinclair ZX81 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Which type of transistor did you use for the mod? I don't see that in the writeup.. though I could well be missing it. Linked article says only "simple NPN" On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Going through and testing the collection over this Xmas period also prods > me into doing mods I've procrastinated about. A very simple mod but here > is a write up for anyone who is interested... > > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-01-03-composite-video-for-zx81.htm > > Terry (Tez) > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jan 2 18:46:30 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 13:46:30 +1300 Subject: Experiences with a composite video mod for a Sinclair ZX81 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/01/2016 12:48 pm, "drlegendre ." wrote: > > Which type of transistor did you use for the mod? I don't see that in the > writeup.. though I could well be missing it. > > Linked article says only "simple NPN" Good point. I'll have to mention it. It was just a common old 2n3904. Terry (Tez) From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 19:50:14 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 19:50:14 -0600 Subject: Experiences with a composite video mod for a Sinclair ZX81 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Terry, fair enough. =) Has it been done with the ubiquitous 2N2222A? That one is probably in everybody's kit.. it might be even more common than the 3904 Wondering.. is there a way to re-purpose that Chan. 3/4 switch as an RF / Composite switch? That way you'd still have a correct (local) RF output, as well as the Composite video. On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > On 3/01/2016 12:48 pm, "drlegendre ." wrote: > > > > Which type of transistor did you use for the mod? I don't see that in the > > writeup.. though I could well be missing it. > > > > Linked article says only "simple NPN" > > Good point. I'll have to mention it. It was just a common old 2n3904. > > Terry (Tez) > From terry.stewart296a at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 20:06:12 2016 From: terry.stewart296a at gmail.com (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 15:06:12 +1300 Subject: Experiences with a composite video mod for a Sinclair ZX81 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/01/2016 2:50 pm, "drlegendre ." wrote: > > Thanks Terry, fair enough. =) > > Has it been done with the ubiquitous 2N2222A? That one is probably in > everybody's kit.. it might be even more common than the 3904 > > Wondering.. is there a way to re-purpose that Chan. 3/4 switch as an RF / > Composite switch? That way you'd still have a correct (local) RF output, as > well as the Composite video. Actually you probably could if you wanted to keep RF. You'd have to make sure it's hardwired to the right RF channel of course but yea.. It's interesting that none of my present TVs would tune properly to the RF of the ZX81 but they will with some of the other RF only computers like the Coco 1 and Atari 400? More circuitry in the latter perhaps... Terry ( Tez ) From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 20:22:47 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 20:22:47 -0600 Subject: Experiences with a composite video mod for a Sinclair ZX81 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "It's interesting that none of my present TVs would tune properly to the RF of the ZX81 but they will with some of the other RF only computers like the Coco 1 and Atari 400? More circuitry in the latter perhaps..." I'd have no idea about that one, other than I can verify that there was a lot of variability in the video quality of early game & home computer systems. My first machine was a (NTSC) VIC-20 which I ran on a 12" B&W RCA TV set from the late 1970s. It was not all that bad, really - quite legible with those massive characters, but not so great for games or anything requiring color recognition. I was very happy to receive a "proper" S-Video monitor with my C-64, which arrived some two years later. On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > On 3/01/2016 2:50 pm, "drlegendre ." wrote: > > > > Thanks Terry, fair enough. =) > > > > Has it been done with the ubiquitous 2N2222A? That one is probably in > > everybody's kit.. it might be even more common than the 3904 > > > > Wondering.. is there a way to re-purpose that Chan. 3/4 switch as an RF / > > Composite switch? That way you'd still have a correct (local) RF output, > as > > well as the Composite video. > > Actually you probably could if you wanted to keep RF. You'd have to make > sure it's hardwired to the right RF channel of course but yea.. > > It's interesting that none of my present TVs would tune properly to the RF > of the ZX81 but they will with some of the other RF only computers like the > Coco 1 and Atari 400? More circuitry in the latter perhaps... > > Terry ( Tez ) > From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 22:20:18 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 21:20:18 -0700 Subject: HP 16700A/16702A logic analyzer help request - /etc/rc.config.d/netconf file wanted In-Reply-To: <5687EB92.6050802@gmail.com> References: <5687EB92.6050802@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Paul and Glen! In addition to my netconf referencing lan1 instead of lan0, it also was using a [1] index for everything. Using either netconf file you guys provided solves the problem. I think my 16702A netconf got screwed up when I moved the SCSI disk from the working 16702A into a 16700B option 008, which had no internal hard disk. The test equipment reseller had apparently separated the external 9GB SCSI drive that Agilent originally provided with the 16700B option 008, then decided that the 16700B wouldn't boot (duh!), so they sold it to me cheap. It seemed that moving the disk from the 16702A was the easiest way to test it, and it seemed to work fine, and the 16702A seemed to work fine when I moved the disk back, but I hadn't checked the networking until this past week. I need to back up the disk. It has some licenses for some optional features, such as the B4601B Serial Analysis Tool Set, which is part of the reason I use the 16702A instead of the 16700B. Best regards, Eric From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 22:39:48 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 20:39:48 -0800 Subject: HP 16700A/16702A logic analyzer help request - /etc/rc.config.d/netconf file wanted In-Reply-To: References: <5687EB92.6050802@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > I think my 16702A netconf got screwed up when I moved the SCSI disk > from the working 16702A into a 16700B option 008, which had no > internal hard disk. Yes, moving OS disks between an A and a B model and/or between a 16700 and a 16702 model has been known to cause weird behavior. If you need to do that it might be easiest to just do a fresh install instead of trying to manually sort things out by hand after a disk transplant. It takes an hour or so to for a fresh install to complete but it is completely automated. Just boot from the CD and let it run to completion. > I need to back up the disk. It has some licenses for some optional > features, such as the B4601B Serial Analysis Tool Set, which is part > of the reason I use the 16702A instead of the 16700B. You must not be aware of the "introScreen" lmcrypt hack. You can regenerate a license.dat file with correct passwords for all of the tool sets available on the software installation CD. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 22:49:28 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 21:49:28 -0700 Subject: HP 16700A/16702A logic analyzer help request - /etc/rc.config.d/netconf file wanted In-Reply-To: References: <5687EB92.6050802@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 9:39 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > If you need to do that it might be easiest to just do a fresh install instead of > trying to manually sort things out by hand after a disk transplant. At the time I didn't have the install CD, but I do now. I also didn't have a suitable SCSI drive. I just wanted to check the 16700A quickly before the end of the possibility of returning it, so I had to use what was on hand. > You must not be aware of the "introScreen" lmcrypt hack. You can > regenerate a license.dat file with correct passwords for all of the > tool sets available on the software installation CD. You're right. I'm not aware of that hack. Sounds useful! I must not be coming up with the right search keywords. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 23:48:31 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 21:48:31 -0800 Subject: HP 16700A/16702A logic analyzer help request - /etc/rc.config.d/netconf file wanted In-Reply-To: References: <5687EB92.6050802@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> You must not be aware of the "introScreen" lmcrypt hack. You can >> regenerate a license.dat file with correct passwords for all of the >> tool sets available on the software installation CD. > > You're right. I'm not aware of that hack. Sounds useful! I must not be > coming up with the right search keywords. Take a look at this file on the install CD, which contains the lines below: LA_CDROM/catalog/HP1660X-70XA/pfiles/postinstall # # Convert licensing files to new format # /usr/sprockets/os/sbin/convertLicensing # # Now, delete the file so we don't leave evidence of what we did. :) # rm -f /usr/sprockets/os/sbin/convertLicensing Then follow that to this file on the install CD, which you have to gzip -d to view and you can see how it generates the license file: LA_CDROM/HP1660X-70XA/HP1660X-70XA/usr/sprockets/os/sbin/convertLicensing This is a case of security through obscurity. The file /usr/sprockets/flexlm/introScreen that is part of the standard software installation is a FlexLM lmcrypt binary that has simply been renamed as a weak attempt to hide it. If you execute this command on the 16700: $LMCRYPT -maxlen -1 -verfmt 6 $LICENSE_FILE where: $LMCRYPT = /usr/sprockets/flexlm/introScreen $LICENSE_FILE = /hplogic/licensing/license.dat It will regenerate the license.dat file with updated passwords. If there are any expiration dates in the license file change the date field to permanent before regenerating the file. Also first make sure the HOSTID fields on each feature lines match the system, or just set them to HOSTID=ANY. Someone else more clever than me figured this out. From dave at 661.org Sun Jan 3 01:43:34 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 07:43:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Panda Display USB support in klh10 working Message-ID: I've managed to edit klh10 to talk to my new USB Panda Display, but I'm quite sure it's not displaying things correctly. What can I run to get it to display a recognizable pattern? I'm thinking of whatever is causing the parallel display at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_LcQ5apODg to do what it's doing. To make a quick and dirty USB Panda Display, wire up an atmega328 according to the schematics at To start playing with this, first clone https://github.com/DavidGriffith/panda-display. You don't need Kicad at this point. Just open up panda-sch.pdf and wire up an atmega328 (maybe at atmega8 will do) with a 20MHz crystal. Other crystals can be used if you alter the Makefile accordingly. Use a max7219 matrix LED module. It's a board with an 8x8 matrix of LEDs and a max7219. You'll also need a AVR ISP breakout board and a USB-B breakout board. A Unix environment is assumed here. Set your AVR programmer (edit makefile to match yours) such that it _DOES_NOT_ supply power to the circuit. Connect the programmer to the board and to your computer. Then connect a USB cable from your computer to the circuit. Go into the firmware directory, type "make hex" to build the firmware. Then "make program" to program the AVR. The circuit should reset itself and then display an X. Now type "make ptest" to build a test program with which you can send bytes to the Panda Display and see them immediately. Use it like this "./ptest 0x23, 0xff, 0x9a" and so on. Once you're happy with that, move on to klh10. Get my patched version at https://github.com/DavidGriffith/klh10 and build it like usual. I used the base-kl target and the klt20.ini config file from Mark Crispin's Panda distribution. Start the emulator and before you type "GO", type "lights on". You should be told that the Panda Display was initialized. Type "GO" and get things going. The LED matrix will then start blinking. I don't know how it's supposed to look at this point. The RUN light appears to be at the bottom left of the matrix given that it blinks at 1 Hz. Here's a udev rule that will work for the Panda Display: SUBSYSTEM=="usb", ATTRS{idProduct}=="05df", ATTRS{idVendor}=="16c0", MODE="0770", ATTRS{product}=="Panda Display", GROUP="plugdev" Please play around with this and let me know what you think. Again, please tell me how I can get a predictable pattern going so I can get the LEDs lit correctly. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 01:48:39 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 00:48:39 -0700 Subject: HP 16700A/16702A logic analyzer help request - /etc/rc.config.d/netconf file wanted In-Reply-To: References: <5687EB92.6050802@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Someone else more clever than me figured this out. Thank you, and thanks to them as well! From peter at rittwage.com Sat Jan 2 18:43:14 2016 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 19:43:14 -0500 Subject: Experiences with a composite video mod for a Sinclair ZX81 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4297355bf8e29e41acc8ef3a35ac5abd.squirrel@rittwage.com> NPN is used for simple video amps... so 2n3904 or equivalent. -Pete Rittwage > Which type of transistor did you use for the mod? I don't see that in the > writeup.. though I could well be missing it. > > Linked article says only "simple NPN" > > On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Terry Stewart > wrote: > >> Going through and testing the collection over this Xmas period also >> prods >> me into doing mods I've procrastinated about. A very simple mod but >> here >> is a write up for anyone who is interested... >> >> >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-01-03-composite-video-for-zx81.htm >> >> Terry (Tez) >> > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 20:16:06 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 21:16:06 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: As a final diagnostic on the PDP-12 we tried to run FOCAL-69, but it started executing instructions in non existent memory. FOCAL initializes lots of peripherals and then tries different instructions to determine what processor it is running on. It executed what it thought was a TC01 DECtape IOT, but DEC had recycled the 6762 instruction for the KF12 Automatic Priority Interrupt controller. This caused the KF12 to execute a hardware PUSH instruction to save the processor state and then jump into memory field 2. Since we only have 8k of core it executed 7777 instructions and hung. Replacing the 6762 instruction at 4376 with a 7000 NOP let FOCAL initialize and run OK. -- Michael Thompson From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 05:23:22 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 00:23:22 +1300 Subject: Panda Display USB support in klh10 working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 8:43 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I've managed to edit klh10 to talk to my new USB Panda Display *blinks* There's a USB Panda display? I bought two of the original parallel port Panda displays years ago. Recently wasted a lot of time trying to get them to work. The Windows diagnostic tool program works perfectly - sending patterns to lights and running them. But try to use them with klh and they initialize with a few random lights on when you start it and then never change at any point until *hardware* power is cycled. Evidently there's something screwy and the support for them was never actually incorporated into klh and/or the final Panda TOPS-20 release. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jan 3 06:34:20 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2016 12:34:20 +0000 Subject: Experiences with a composite video mod for a Sinclair ZX81 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 03/01/2016 02:06, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > It's interesting that none of my present TVs would tune properly to the RF > of the ZX81 but they will with some of the other RF only computers like the > Coco 1 and Atari 400? More circuitry in the latter perhaps... Going from an old, old memory from when TVs became auto-tune rather than dial-in or 'press-a-button-and-hold-until-something-happens' I recall it was to do with the 'black level' from the ZX81 in that it was too great and caused the autotune mechanism to skip it altogether as it wasn't seen as a useable signal. Hopefully someone else can elaborate on that. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 10:35:04 2016 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 11:35:04 -0500 Subject: Unibus/Q-bus board layout (in CAD format(s)) Message-ID: I was wondering: Are there public CAD files (no, not the medieval detective) for the Unibus/Q-bus fingers / board layout? From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 3 11:51:22 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 09:51:22 -0800 Subject: Unibus/Q-bus board layout (in CAD format(s)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56895F9A.5040603@shiresoft.com> On 1/3/16 8:35 AM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > I was wondering: Are there public CAD files (no, not the medieval > detective) for the Unibus/Q-bus fingers / board layout? I have some layouts for Eagle CAD. They're for version 5. I'll be upgrading to 7.5 in a few weeks. TTFN - Guy From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 12:32:34 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 12:32:34 -0600 Subject: Experiences with a composite video mod for a Sinclair ZX81 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160103183232.GG96434@gmail.com> On Sun, Jan 03, 2016, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 03/01/2016 02:06, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > > > It's interesting that none of my present TVs would tune properly to the RF > > of the ZX81 but they will with some of the other RF only computers like the > > Coco 1 and Atari 400? More circuitry in the latter perhaps... > > Going from an old, old memory from when TVs became auto-tune rather than > dial-in or 'press-a-button-and-hold-until-something-happens' What's this about holding a button? > I recall it was > to do with the 'black level' from the ZX81 in that it was too great and > caused the autotune mechanism to skip it altogether as it wasn't seen as a > useable signal. > > Hopefully someone else can elaborate on that. -- Eric Christopherson From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jan 3 12:46:44 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2016 18:46:44 +0000 Subject: Experiences with a composite video mod for a Sinclair ZX81 In-Reply-To: <20160103183232.GG96434@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 03/01/2016 18:32, "Eric Christopherson" wrote: > On Sun, Jan 03, 2016, Adrian Graham wrote: >> On 03/01/2016 02:06, "Terry Stewart" wrote: >> >>> It's interesting that none of my present TVs would tune properly to the RF >>> of the ZX81 but they will with some of the other RF only computers like the >>> Coco 1 and Atari 400? More circuitry in the latter perhaps... >> >> Going from an old, old memory from when TVs became auto-tune rather than >> dial-in or 'press-a-button-and-hold-until-something-happens' > > What's this about holding a button? Modern technology :) Going OT for a moment here (sorry Jay) over xmas I was talking VCRs with my Missus and went off searching for the very first one I used back in '83-ish, a Ferguson Videostar. I was surprised to re-learn that the channel tuners on that were all the 'spinning wheel' type. There was one on fleabay for 10ukp but I wasn't allowed to bid. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Sun Jan 3 12:52:39 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 10:52:39 -0800 Subject: Unibus/Q-bus board layout (in CAD format(s)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CA11460186D468D876AE7D93A888CA4@Vincew7> From: Mark Kahrs: Sunday, January 03, 2016 8:35 AM > I was wondering: Are there public CAD files (no, not the medieval > detective) for the Unibus/Q-bus fingers / board layout? Not sure who or what the medieval detective is, but I've got the "dec-con" Eagle library available at http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/cad.php which has parts DOUBLE, QUAD, and HEX. Those are in v4.11 format. (I also have them in the v6.6 XML format here on my desktop if you need those, but Eagle should convert the file formats automatically.) Vince From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 14:31:29 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 15:31:29 -0500 Subject: Open VMS System Mgt Guide Scripts Avail. Message-ID: I've uploaded the contents of the disk that accompanis the book "OpenVMS System Management Guide" by Lawrence Baldwin here: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/OpenVMS/ Maybe your copy is missing the disk. The disk contains scripts for version 5-->6 transition. Does anyone know of any MULTINET script libraries? -- Bill From dave at 661.org Sun Jan 3 15:06:53 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 21:06:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Panda Display USB support in klh10 working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 2016, Mike Ross wrote: > On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 8:43 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I've managed to edit klh10 to talk to my new USB Panda Display > > *blinks* > > There's a USB Panda display? > > I bought two of the original parallel port Panda displays years ago. > Recently wasted a lot of time trying to get them to work. The Windows > diagnostic tool program works perfectly - sending patterns to lights > and running them. But try to use them with klh and they initialize > with a few random lights on when you start it and then never change at > any point until *hardware* power is cycled. Evidently there's > something screwy and the support for them was never actually > incorporated into klh and/or the final Panda TOPS-20 release. One of the big limitations of the original Panda Display is that the parallel port is accessed through IO ports, not the operating system. Because of that, a USB-to-parallel converter will not work. I also got one of the original displays. By the time I built it up, I didn't have easy access to a real parallel port. That's when I started to design a USB-based display. The hardware and firmware is fairly simple. The klh10 side of it is more complicated. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 19:50:45 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 14:50:45 +1300 Subject: Panda Display USB support in klh10 working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well if you decide to produce it - as a kit of parts or a finished product! - put me on the list; I'll take two or three of them. Email me direct if you like. Mike On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 10:06 AM, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 4 Jan 2016, Mike Ross wrote: > >> On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 8:43 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> >>> I've managed to edit klh10 to talk to my new USB Panda Display >> >> >> *blinks* >> >> There's a USB Panda display? >> >> I bought two of the original parallel port Panda displays years ago. >> Recently wasted a lot of time trying to get them to work. The Windows >> diagnostic tool program works perfectly - sending patterns to lights >> and running them. But try to use them with klh and they initialize >> with a few random lights on when you start it and then never change at >> any point until *hardware* power is cycled. Evidently there's >> something screwy and the support for them was never actually >> incorporated into klh and/or the final Panda TOPS-20 release. > > > One of the big limitations of the original Panda Display is that the > parallel port is accessed through IO ports, not the operating system. > Because of that, a USB-to-parallel converter will not work. I also got one > of the original displays. By the time I built it up, I didn't have easy > access to a real parallel port. That's when I started to design a USB-based > display. The hardware and firmware is fairly simple. The klh10 side of it > is more complicated. > > > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Jan 4 05:36:06 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 11:36:06 +0000 Subject: Experiences with a composite video mod for a Sinclair ZX81 In-Reply-To: <20160103183232.GG96434@gmail.com> References: <20160103183232.GG96434@gmail.com> Message-ID: <568A5926.4000303@btinternet.com> On 03/01/2016 18:32, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Sun, Jan 03, 2016, Adrian Graham wrote: >> On 03/01/2016 02:06, "Terry Stewart" wrote: >> >>> It's interesting that none of my present TVs would tune properly to the RF >>> of the ZX81 but they will with some of the other RF only computers like the >>> Coco 1 and Atari 400? More circuitry in the latter perhaps... >> Going from an old, old memory from when TVs became auto-tune rather than >> dial-in or 'press-a-button-and-hold-until-something-happens' > What's this about holding a button? > >> I recall it was >> to do with the 'black level' from the ZX81 in that it was too great and >> caused the autotune mechanism to skip it altogether as it wasn't seen as a >> useable signal. >> >> Hopefully someone else can elaborate on that. I dont know abourt the ZX but when I worked on VDUs and wanted a quick comp output. I seem to remember you could connect a 560R to positive going TTL video and a 390R to negative going TTL mixed sync and you would get 1v comp into 75R. Rod From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Jan 4 07:38:29 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 13:38:29 +0000 Subject: Front Panel Update Message-ID: <568A75D5.2070800@btinternet.com> Hi Guys! I have just sent off an email to the silk screeners and will talk to them later. Like most of the UK they have been shut down from 18th December until to-day. When they shutdown they had put the black layer on the back of all of the panels and they were in the drier Moving to the front of the panel. In the first batch I shipped. The front had the normal shiny perspex finish. Somebody noticed the real old panels had a sort of matt black finish on the front. Actually it was a translucent sort of gray layer to diffuse the lamps and had the side effect of making the front surface look as if it was matt black. It isn't but it sure looks like it. Its some kind of transmissive optical effect. OK so they go and get an ink to do the above. While they had the panels in the drier they did a test piece. Black on the back and translucent clear diffuser on the front. For some reason they were not happy with the result. At that point Christmas intervenes. To-day, what I have requested is not to mess around with the special ink if they dont like the results. They should just put a real but thin layer of matt black on the front. The result should be the same. More news as it comes in Rod From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 16:15:02 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 17:15:02 -0500 Subject: The Old and New Message-ID: There seems to be in this world a hungering for what?s new: witness the gazillion smart phones sold; untold number of iPads(tablets) and their ilk; and plug-n-play computers. What seems to be forgotten is what came before; what interests us ? vintage/classic computers. Whether in the grand scheme of things it really matters whether we call it classic computing, this website?s name protected by copyright(internet ?laws?), retro-computing; vintage computing; golden-age computing or just plain old-computing era, nevertheless helps us to immeasurably enjoy our hobby. And yet there is a hunger, maybe less so for old computers as historical oddities don?t seem to attract a large following, for what came before. The new year hopefully expands our community: wishing all classic computer enthusiasts a wonderful New Year?s and all your wishes come true in 2016. Happy computing, Murray :) From ethan at 757.org Mon Jan 4 17:32:50 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 18:32:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Old and New In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > helps us to immeasurably enjoy our hobby. And yet there is a hunger, > maybe less so for old computers as historical oddities don?t seem to > attract a large following, for what came before. The new year > hopefully expands our community: wishing all classic computer > enthusiasts a wonderful New Year?s and all your wishes come true in > 2016. Hooray! I think that more so than ever classic computing is rising in popularity! Granted my world is mostly plastic microcomputers from the 80s, but the demand is more so than ever for that stuff. I have friends that come to visit me in Northern Virginia that weren't of computering age if born at all when the Commodores and Ataris ruled, but are hunting odds and ends to complete systems they have. Last visit they left with a Kaypro 8088, some flavor g3 mac (one guy is trying to collect all flavors to match the print ads), a HP apollo workstation, and some MFM hard drives for a friend's 8088 collection. At this point they're not hunting larger iron or PDPs and that era stuff, but more so out of lack of storage space and leads on the systems. There are a lot of people that are watching a lot of videos on youtube about the classic computing stuff, and I think a good amount of that drives the interest! (Hint!) - Ethan From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 4 18:30:59 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 00:30:59 +0000 Subject: Unibus/Q-bus board layout (in CAD format(s)) In-Reply-To: <2CA11460186D468D876AE7D93A888CA4@Vincew7> References: <2CA11460186D468D876AE7D93A888CA4@Vincew7> Message-ID: <568B0EC3.9010904@ntlworld.com> On 03/01/16 18:52, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Mark Kahrs: Sunday, January 03, 2016 8:35 AM >> I was wondering: Are there public CAD files (no, not the medieval >> detective) for the Unibus/Q-bus fingers / board layout? > > Not sure who or what the medieval detective is, but I've got the > "dec-con" Eagle library available at > http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/cad.php > which has parts DOUBLE, QUAD, and HEX. Those are in v4.11 format. (I > also have them in the v6.6 XML format here on my desktop if you need > those, but Eagle should convert the file formats automatically.) > > Vince FWIW: I'm guessing this is the medieval detective: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadfael Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 22:38:17 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 20:38:17 -0800 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) Message-ID: Someone go get this. posted: 2016-01-04 12:20pm http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5387506164.html I have the following HP 3000 computer equipment in my basement yours FREE for removal QTY Description ----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 HP 3000 series 30 Computers 4 HP 7925 disk drives 1 HP 2608A line printer 1 HP 7970E tape drive 2 HP 3000 Console Terminals 3 HP 2645A terminals 2 HP 2631A terminal printers The picture shown is of 3 disk drives and the Tape drive when new (1980). This equipment has been mostly idle for 20+ years. The first 4 line items of equipment above are relatively large and would require at least 2 men to remove each item from my basement. From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Jan 4 22:22:02 2016 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Abraham) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 20:22:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 3420 x2 + 3803 for sale Message-ID: I have two IBM 3420 tape drives and a 3803 controller for sale. Asking price is $3,000 for the entire set but is negotiable. Inquire directly if interested. http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/IBM%203420.JPG http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/IBM%203803.JPG Happy new year! -- Sellam Abraham VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. * * * NOTICE * * * Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 15:28:10 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2016 16:28:10 -0500 Subject: The Old and New In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <568AE3EA.1070000@gmail.com> On 01/04/2016 05:15 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > There seems to be in this world a hungering for what?s new: witness > the gazillion smart phones sold; untold number of iPads(tablets) and > their ilk; and plug-n-play computers. What seems to be forgotten is > what came before; what interests us ? vintage/classic computers. > Whether in the grand scheme of things it really matters whether we > call it classic computing, this website?s name protected by > copyright(internet ?laws?), retro-computing; vintage computing; > golden-age computing or just plain old-computing era, nevertheless > helps us to immeasurably enjoy our hobby. And yet there is a hunger, > maybe less so for old computers as historical oddities don?t seem to > attract a large following, for what came before. The new year > hopefully expands our community: wishing all classic computer > enthusiasts a wonderful New Year?s and all your wishes come true in > 2016. > > Happy computing, Murray :) I agree Yes it's nice to slat a DVD and have auto-play and all that but the fundamentals still scratch at the back of my head and that is what keeps me reading as many books as I can about our computer history and learning code. I love learning all the original codding and play with a sodering gun and a board. But more than anything to me I love BASIC coding... A happy 2016 to you all! From leec2124 at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 10:49:41 2016 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 08:49:41 -0800 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: THis looks like a very nice system. Note this is the 16-bit stack architecture hardware part of the 3000 family. Not the 32-bit PA-RISC incarnation. Which makes it that much more appealing. However, the Series 30 is s-l-o-w. No mention of software, not sure if the Series 30 can run MPE-V, maybe only MPE-IV and earlier? Also does not mention if the disc drives have packs, I suspect they do. Also the 7925s are 125MB each with removable packs. Lee Courtney On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 8:38 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Someone go get this. > > posted: 2016-01-04 12:20pm > > http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5387506164.html > > I have the following HP 3000 computer equipment in my basement yours > FREE for removal > > QTY Description > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 2 HP 3000 series 30 Computers > 4 HP 7925 disk drives > 1 HP 2608A line printer > 1 HP 7970E tape drive > 2 HP 3000 Console Terminals > 3 HP 2645A terminals > 2 HP 2631A terminal printers > > The picture shown is of 3 disk drives and the Tape drive when new > (1980). This equipment has been mostly idle for 20+ years. The first 4 > line items of equipment above are relatively large and would require > at least 2 men to remove each item from my basement. > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Jan 5 11:08:37 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 12:08:37 -0500 Subject: VCF East -- Brian Kernighan video Message-ID: <568BF895.4010302@snarc.net> You know you wanna watch. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUWt_StXKsY From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Tue Jan 5 11:28:56 2016 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 19:28:56 +0200 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, I really like to get one Series 30 next to my Series III, but I'm wrong side of ocean and I have too much stuff/projects already (if you ask my girlfriend... ;) It is funny how much this old stuff is still in this globe. I hope those 30s find good homes. - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 20:38:17 -0800 > Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) > From: glen.slick at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Someone go get this. > > posted: 2016-01-04 12:20pm > > http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5387506164.html > > I have the following HP 3000 computer equipment in my basement yours > FREE for removal > > QTY Description > ----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 2 HP 3000 series 30 Computers > 4 HP 7925 disk drives > 1 HP 2608A line printer > 1 HP 7970E tape drive > 2 HP 3000 Console Terminals > 3 HP 2645A terminals > 2 HP 2631A terminal printers > > The picture shown is of 3 disk drives and the Tape drive when new > (1980). This equipment has been mostly idle for 20+ years. The first 4 > line items of equipment above are relatively large and would require > at least 2 men to remove each item from my basement. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 5 12:35:41 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 19:35:41 +0100 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know the feeling. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Johannes Thelen" Verzonden: ?5-?1-?2016 19:03 Aan: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Onderwerp: RE: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) Oh, I really like to get one Series 30 next to my Series III, but I'm wrong side of ocean and I have too much stuff/projects already (if you ask my girlfriend... ;) It is funny how much this old stuff is still in this globe. I hope those 30s find good homes. - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 20:38:17 -0800 > Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) > From: glen.slick at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Someone go get this. > > posted: 2016-01-04 12:20pm > > http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5387506164.html > > I have the following HP 3000 computer equipment in my basement yours > FREE for removal > > QTY Description > ----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 2 HP 3000 series 30 Computers > 4 HP 7925 disk drives > 1 HP 2608A line printer > 1 HP 7970E tape drive > 2 HP 3000 Console Terminals > 3 HP 2645A terminals > 2 HP 2631A terminal printers > > The picture shown is of 3 disk drives and the Tape drive when new > (1980). This equipment has been mostly idle for 20+ years. The first 4 > line items of equipment above are relatively large and would require > at least 2 men to remove each item from my basement. From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Tue Jan 5 14:13:52 2016 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (Thomas Dzubin) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 12:13:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Gene Roddenberry's floppy disks from the 1980s read Message-ID: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/01/files-on-nearly-200-floppy-disks-belonging-to-star-trek-creator-recovered/ From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jan 5 14:27:31 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 12:27:31 -0800 Subject: Floppy recovery Message-ID: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> I wonder how it could take them three months to figure something out. Maybe Chuck can comment. But over a year after they spent the 3 months. Hmmm. It will be interesting to hear what was recovered, though from what has been written and passed down about Roddenberry, I'm not expecting much. On a tangent, from a lecture 35 years ago by Harlan Ellison, I hope all of his papers are preserved and transcribed. He had about 15 4 drawer cabinets of work notes at that time, probably double or triple that now. I think at the time he worked manually as well. https://www.yahoo.com/tech/floppy-disks-star-trek-creator-182855583.html Thanks Jim From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 5 14:56:16 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 09:56:16 +1300 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: >I wonder how it could take them three months to figure something out. Maybe Chuck can comment. Yes, I would have thought an old MSDOS machine with a 360k 5.25 inch floppy drive plus Chuck's 22DISK program and the job could have been done in a day? Might be more too it than it seems maybe... Terry (Tez) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 5 14:59:21 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 12:59:21 -0800 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <568C2EA9.6070605@sydex.com> On 01/05/2016 12:27 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > I wonder how it could take them three months to figure something out. > Maybe Chuck can comment. > > But over a year after they spent the 3 months. Hmmm. It will be > interesting to hear what was recovered, though from what has been > written and passed down about Roddenberry, I'm not expecting much. > > On a tangent, from a lecture 35 years ago by Harlan Ellison, I hope > all of his papers are preserved and transcribed. He had about 15 4 > drawer cabinets of work notes at that time, probably double or triple > that now. I think at the time he worked manually as well. > > https://www.yahoo.com/tech/floppy-disks-star-trek-creator-182855583.html Guess who Drivesavers sent the floppy images to for recovery? (Modesty forbids). But we've had a working relationship with them for a long time. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 5 15:07:05 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 10:07:05 +1300 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: >200 disks, especially if they weren't in great shape, can take some time. I assume they wanted full data recovery using all possible means, >plus conversion of all the documents to a modern format. With one-of-a-kind stuff, you don't have the luxury of experimenting and playing around with it. You have to make sure you aren't >destroying them further while trying to read them- sometimes you only get one chance and the mylar coating comes right off. After that, it's over. Fair point. Thinking further on it, it would be a softly, softly approach. Terry (Tez) On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 10:03 AM, peter wrote: > On 2016-01-05 15:56, Terry Stewart wrote: > >> I wonder how it could take them three months to figure something out. >>> >> Maybe Chuck can comment. >> >> Yes, I would have thought an old MSDOS machine with a 360k 5.25 inch >> floppy >> drive plus Chuck's 22DISK program and the job could have been done in a >> day? Might be more too it than it seems maybe... >> >> Terry (Tez) >> > > 200 disks, especially if they weren't in great shape, can take some time. > I assume they wanted full data recovery using all possible means, plus > conversion of all the documents to a modern format. > > With one-of-a-kind stuff, you don't have the luxury of experimenting and > playing around with it. You have to make sure you aren't destroying them > further while trying to read them- sometimes you only get one chance and > the mylar coating comes right off. After that, it's over. > > -- > -- > Pete Rittwage > Disk Preservation Project > http://diskpreservation.com > > From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Jan 5 15:15:18 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 13:15:18 -0800 Subject: Floppy recovery Message-ID: Anyone know anything about the custom computer and the custom OS? Nor implying anything but Chuck do u have any insights? ;) -------- Original message -------- From: jwsmobile Date: 1/5/2016 12:27 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Floppy recovery I wonder how it could take them three months to figure something out.? Maybe Chuck can comment. But over a year after they spent the 3 months.? Hmmm.? It will be interesting to hear what was recovered, though from what has been written and passed down about Roddenberry, I'm not expecting much. On a tangent, from a lecture 35 years ago by Harlan Ellison, I hope all of his papers are preserved and transcribed.? He had about 15 4 drawer cabinets of work notes at that time, probably double or triple that now.? I think at the time he worked manually as well. https://www.yahoo.com/tech/floppy-disks-star-trek-creator-182855583.html Thanks Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 5 15:21:33 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 13:21:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <568C2EA9.6070605@sydex.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <568C2EA9.6070605@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Guess who Drivesavers sent the floppy images to for recovery? (Modesty > forbids). But we've had a working relationship with them for a long time. Can you enlighten us as to what sort of system/disk format it was? From peter at rittwage.com Tue Jan 5 15:03:12 2016 From: peter at rittwage.com (peter) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 16:03:12 -0500 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 2016-01-05 15:56, Terry Stewart wrote: >> I wonder how it could take them three months to figure something out. > Maybe Chuck can comment. > > Yes, I would have thought an old MSDOS machine with a 360k 5.25 inch > floppy > drive plus Chuck's 22DISK program and the job could have been done in a > day? Might be more too it than it seems maybe... > > Terry (Tez) 200 disks, especially if they weren't in great shape, can take some time. I assume they wanted full data recovery using all possible means, plus conversion of all the documents to a modern format. With one-of-a-kind stuff, you don't have the luxury of experimenting and playing around with it. You have to make sure you aren't destroying them further while trying to read them- sometimes you only get one chance and the mylar coating comes right off. After that, it's over. -- -- Pete Rittwage Disk Preservation Project http://diskpreservation.com From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jan 5 15:24:47 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 13:24:47 -0800 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 12:27:31 -0800 jwsmobile wrote: > I wonder how it could take them three months to figure something out. > Maybe Chuck can comment. > > But over a year after they spent the 3 months. Hmmm. It will be > interesting to hear what was recovered, though from what has been > written and passed down about Roddenberry, I'm not expecting much. > > On a tangent, from a lecture 35 years ago by Harlan Ellison, I hope all > of his papers are preserved and transcribed. He had about 15 4 drawer > cabinets of work notes at that time, probably double or triple that > now. I think at the time he worked manually as well. > > https://www.yahoo.com/tech/floppy-disks-star-trek-creator-182855583.html I'm very familiar with DriveSavers. They are a professional forensically qualified firm (you can review all their certifications on their website). Many three letter government agencies, law firms and Hollywood studios, etc. use them to forensically retrieve information from FDD, HDD, Arrays of hundreds of drives (cloud), SSD, Smart Phones, etc. This includes those that have been purposely or accidentally erased and/or physically damaged. I have visited their facilities in Novato, California - and they are truly amazing. I've seldom seen such a capable, quality operation. I'm somewhat familiar with the Roddenberry floppies. They were not in a standard format - so it was not just a matter of reading the floppies, but developing software to read the specially formatted and encoded floppies (understanding directories, files, etc.) and converting them to files in a format their client could use. Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Jan 5 15:27:07 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 14:27:07 -0700 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Attempting to read floppies with the wrong kind of drive can also cause damage. Back in the day, people were all aflutter about drive rings and how having them or not having them caused damage when they read the floppy in a 'foreign' setting. There were rumors about head clearance and such also being an issue when newer drives were used to read older floppies, but I never could find someone that was actually affected by it. Warner On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > >200 disks, especially if they weren't in great shape, can take some time. > I assume they wanted full data recovery using all possible means, > >plus conversion of all the documents to a modern format. > > With one-of-a-kind stuff, you don't have the luxury of experimenting and > playing around with it. You have to make sure you aren't > >destroying them further while trying to read them- sometimes you only get > one chance and the mylar coating comes right off. After that, it's over. > > Fair point. Thinking further on it, it would be a softly, softly approach. > > Terry (Tez) > > On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 10:03 AM, peter wrote: > > > On 2016-01-05 15:56, Terry Stewart wrote: > > > >> I wonder how it could take them three months to figure something out. > >>> > >> Maybe Chuck can comment. > >> > >> Yes, I would have thought an old MSDOS machine with a 360k 5.25 inch > >> floppy > >> drive plus Chuck's 22DISK program and the job could have been done in a > >> day? Might be more too it than it seems maybe... > >> > >> Terry (Tez) > >> > > > > 200 disks, especially if they weren't in great shape, can take some time. > > I assume they wanted full data recovery using all possible means, plus > > conversion of all the documents to a modern format. > > > > With one-of-a-kind stuff, you don't have the luxury of experimenting and > > playing around with it. You have to make sure you aren't destroying them > > further while trying to read them- sometimes you only get one chance and > > the mylar coating comes right off. After that, it's over. > > > > -- > > -- > > Pete Rittwage > > Disk Preservation Project > > http://diskpreservation.com > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 5 15:27:22 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 13:27:22 -0800 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <568C2EA9.6070605@sydex.com> Message-ID: <568C353A.7070802@sydex.com> On 01/05/2016 01:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Guess who Drivesavers sent the floppy images to for recovery? >> (Modesty forbids). But we've had a working relationship with them >> for a long time. > > Can you enlighten us as to what sort of system/disk format it was? IIRC, it was several, mostly Japanese. I'd have to go back to my notes from some time back. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 15:28:55 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 16:28:55 -0500 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I'm somewhat familiar with the Roddenberry floppies. They were not in a > standard format - so it was not just a matter of reading the floppies, > but developing software to read the specially formatted and encoded > floppies (understanding directories, files, etc.) and converting them > to files in a format their client could use. Since the article in PC world mentioned that most of the floppies were "in CP/M format", and I know there are many possible ways to make flux transitions on spinning rust, I totally get that it can take some time to figure out where the actual bits are on the medium, but once you have the data portion of the sectors on a modern machine, CP/M wasn't all that complicated, and IIRC, files were on sequential blocks once they started (not scattered about such as with most modern filesystems), knowing that you were starting with something based on CP/M, what was so obscure that it took months to untangle that part? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 15:30:11 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 16:30:11 -0500 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <568C353A.7070802@sydex.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <568C2EA9.6070605@sydex.com> <568C353A.7070802@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Can you enlighten us as to what sort of system/disk format it was? > > IIRC, it was several, mostly Japanese. I'd have to go back to my notes from > some time back. The picture of the one remaining whitebox with the two full-height floppy drives did remind me of some of the early-to-mid-1980s Japanese CP/M machines that were all but gone by 1985. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 5 15:10:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 13:10:12 -0800 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <568C3134.1000106@sydex.com> On 01/05/2016 12:56 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Yes, I would have thought an old MSDOS machine with a 360k 5.25 inch > floppy drive plus Chuck's 22DISK program and the job could have been > done in a day? Might be more too it than it seems maybe... I won't comment much other than to say that Mr. Roddenberry was apparently a laptop/portable aficionado, so some of the floppy formats had never crossed my desk before. I did do DS a favor by recovering erased data as well. In addition to the usual fees, we received a nice box of chocolate, which was welcome. I'm too old to care about credit. The Roddenberry people had, years before, purchased 22Disk from us as well, so they might have been able to do the work themselves. --Chuck From jason at textfiles.com Tue Jan 5 15:52:52 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 16:52:52 -0500 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: As someone who's dealt with Harlan Ellison on multiple fronts. I will tell you the chances he will burn those drawers is 50-50. On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 3:27 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > I wonder how it could take them three months to figure something out. > Maybe Chuck can comment. > > But over a year after they spent the 3 months. Hmmm. It will be > interesting to hear what was recovered, though from what has been written > and passed down about Roddenberry, I'm not expecting much. > > On a tangent, from a lecture 35 years ago by Harlan Ellison, I hope all of > his papers are preserved and transcribed. He had about 15 4 drawer > cabinets of work notes at that time, probably double or triple that now. I > think at the time he worked manually as well. > > https://www.yahoo.com/tech/floppy-disks-star-trek-creator-182855583.html > > Thanks > Jim > From ethan at 757.org Tue Jan 5 15:58:29 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 16:58:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: > of hundreds of drives (cloud), SSD, Smart Phones, etc. This includes those > that have been purposely or accidentally erased and/or physically > damaged. If a disk has all zeros written to it, as far as I know from what I've read there is no hope of recovering the data. There were rumors that the government could do it based on really fine detection of magnetic levels or something -- but it was rumor. There are bounties out there if anyone can pull it off. I understand data can be recovered when the file entry is removed from an allocation table but data has not been zereod/randomly written over. tl;dr: single pass is fine -- no need to triple pass erase. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Jan 5 15:58:44 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 21:58:44 +0000 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC85E13@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jason Scott Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 1:53 PM > On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 3:27 PM, jwsmobile > wrote: >> On a tangent, from a lecture 35 years ago by Harlan Ellison, I hope all of >> his papers are preserved and transcribed. He had about 15 4 drawer >> cabinets of work notes at that time, probably double or triple that now. I >> think at the time he worked manually as well. > As someone who's dealt with Harlan Ellison on multiple fronts. I will tell > you the chances he will burn those drawers is 50-50. Though I've never met him, I have friends who have worked for him. We would put it at 90-10. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jason at textfiles.com Tue Jan 5 16:03:57 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 17:03:57 -0500 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC85E13@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC85E13@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: I threw it to 50-50 when I weighed in the possibility that he might find an organization willing to pay him something ridiculous to have the archive posthumously. If that doesn't happen, yeah, 90-10. On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Rich Alderson < RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: > From: Jason Scott > Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 1:53 PM > > > On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 3:27 PM, jwsmobile > wrote: > > >> On a tangent, from a lecture 35 years ago by Harlan Ellison, I hope all > of > >> his papers are preserved and transcribed. He had about 15 4 drawer > >> cabinets of work notes at that time, probably double or triple that > now. I > >> think at the time he worked manually as well. > > > As someone who's dealt with Harlan Ellison on multiple fronts. I will > tell > > you the chances he will burn those drawers is 50-50. > > Though I've never met him, I have friends who have worked for him. We > would > put it at 90-10. > > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jan 5 16:12:41 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 17:12:41 -0500 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <568C3FD9.3070100@compsys.to> >ethan at 757.org wrote: > If a disk has all zeros written to it, as far as I know from what I've > read there is no hope of recovering the data. There were rumors that > the government could do it based on really fine detection of magnetic > levels or something -- but it was rumor. There are bounties out there > if anyone can pull it off. > > I understand data can be recovered when the file entry is removed from > an allocation table but data has not been zereod/randomly written over. > > tl;dr: single pass is fine -- no need to triple pass erase. Since this thread has been focused on Floppy media, my assumption is that writing all zeros does not refer to a hard disk drive. Is my assumption incorrect? I have a (exactly!!) one GB file with all zeros (obviously not a floppy) on my hard drive. If I fill the remaining storage with copies of this file, does that eliminate recovery from that portion of the hard drive? And since I have two physical hard drives, copying from a one GB file from one physical drive to the other physical drive usually takes only about one minute, so it would be quite an efficient method to destroy any old data. Jerome Fine From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 16:28:02 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 17:28:02 -0500 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC85E13@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC85E13@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Jason Scott > Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 1:53 PM >> As someone who's dealt with Harlan Ellison on multiple fronts. I will tell >> you the chances he will burn those drawers is 50-50. > > Though I've never met him, I have friends who have worked for him. We would > put it at 90-10. >From what I've heard, that's far more likely. -ethan From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 16:34:15 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 14:34:15 -0800 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ed01d14809$360185b0$a2049110$@gmail.com> I'm on it... Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 8:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) Someone go get this. posted: 2016-01-04 12:20pm http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5387506164.html I have the following HP 3000 computer equipment in my basement yours FREE for removal QTY Description ----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 HP 3000 series 30 Computers 4 HP 7925 disk drives 1 HP 2608A line printer 1 HP 7970E tape drive 2 HP 3000 Console Terminals 3 HP 2645A terminals 2 HP 2631A terminal printers The picture shown is of 3 disk drives and the Tape drive when new (1980). This equipment has been mostly idle for 20+ years. The first 4 line items of equipment above are relatively large and would require at least 2 men to remove each item from my basement. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 5 17:00:01 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 15:00:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > If a disk has all zeros written to it, as far as I know from what I've read > there is no hope of recovering the data. There were rumors that the > government could do it based on really fine detection of magnetic levels or > something -- but it was rumor. There are bounties out there if anyone can > pull it off. I will heartily agree that recovery ceases to be PRACTICAL. NSA has done substantial serious research on that and other recovery. 1) if the alignment of the head of the original recording and of the overwrite head are not a perfect match, then there can be some residual data somewhat off axis. 2) if the data was overwritten once, with a known pattern, then somebody with sufficient resources and motivation can attempt to analyze the noise, and determine "what, overwritten by a 0 could produce the noise that we have here." Accordingly, there are guvmint standards of MULTIPLE patterns to overwrite with to render such extreme techniques unusable. However, I will heartily agree that recovery ceases to be PRACTICAL. > I understand data can be recovered when the file entry is removed from an > allocation table but data has not been zereod/randomly written over. truly trivial. > tl;dr: single pass is fine -- no need to triple pass erase. THAT depends on who is after you. I don't do anything interesting enough to warrant using a simplistic trivial UNERASE utility. (Which is what launched Norton fUtilities) NSA is not interested in what I am doing. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jan 5 17:01:50 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 15:01:50 -0800 Subject: Floppy recovery --> Harlan Ellison In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC85E13@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <568C4B5E.9070407@jwsss.com> On 1/5/2016 2:03 PM, Jason Scott wrote: > I threw it to 50-50 when I weighed in the possibility that he might find an > organization willing to pay him something ridiculous to have the archive > posthumously. If that doesn't happen, yeah, 90-10. > > On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Rich Alderson < > RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: > >> From: Jason Scott >> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 1:53 PM >> >> meone who's dealt with Harlan Ellison on multiple fronts. I will >> tell >>> you the chances he will burn those drawers is 50-50. >> Though I've never met him, I have friends who have worked for him. We >> would >> put it at 90-10. >> >> Rich >> >> >> Rich Alderson >> I thought about him in the last few years as such as what has happened with Heinlein and the like being an example of not having your wishes followed. He was certainly in fine form when he came to UCI so many years ago, and I recall vaguely that he was not going to leave anything of that behind. I'd hope that as remarkable as his works have been that he does reconsider any decision to destroy the material. I probably won't be around long enough to see anything meaningful come out of anyone trying to make sense of things, but he is definitely someone who puts out things that get your thought processes going. And a 2 hour + lecture was good enough I still recall it these many years later. It was really exciting to have read the things that I had before that time. I only wish I'd have know of more of the Star Trek and other stuff that was and had recently happened near the time of the lecture to have brought that up. I do know there were people who had followed him there that he put off discussing things with, and I suspect that was what they wanted to bring up. thanks jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 5 17:21:13 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 15:21:13 -0800 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <568C4FE9.4030705@sydex.com> On 01/05/2016 03:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > NSA has done substantial serious research on that and other recovery. > 1) if the alignment of the head of the original recording and of the > overwrite head are not a perfect match, then there can be some residual > data somewhat off axis. > 2) if the data was overwritten once, with a known pattern, then somebody > with sufficient resources and motivation can attempt to analyze the > noise, and determine "what, overwritten by a 0 could produce the noise > that we have here." Accordingly, there are guvmint standards of > MULTIPLE patterns to overwrite with to render such extreme techniques > unusable. > > However, I will heartily agree that recovery ceases to be PRACTICAL. I recall reading (back in the 90s, that various labs were fooling with this wrt hard disks of the timeand that any success was extremely small potatoes. i.e. maybe a kilobit per hour and not 100% by any means. We have easier ways now, thanks to the Patriot Act. More personal. When folks would ask me how to completely erase a hard disk, I suggested that bashing it to junk using a good sledge hammer or running it through a log chipper then burning the pieces was a good start. On the other hand, simply shredding floppies isn't good enough. There was an old "The New Explorers" program on putting floppies back together and getting data. I know the people who did it--in one of the shots in the background, you can see Anadisk running. I suggest letting floppies soak for a week in a barrel of diesel, then setting fire to them should do the trick. The old maxim of "you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone" applies to data recovery as well. --Chuck From jrr at flippers.com Tue Jan 5 19:19:47 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 17:19:47 -0800 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <568C6BB3.1000100@flippers.com> On 01/05/2016 1:15 PM, Ali wrote: > Anyone know anything about the custom computer and the custom OS? Nor implying anything but Chuck do u have any insights? ;) Didn't Scotty leave his laptop behind when they were saving the whales? John ;-#)# From pete at pski.net Tue Jan 5 20:38:33 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 21:38:33 -0500 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <568C6BB3.1000100@flippers.com> References: <568C6BB3.1000100@flippers.com> Message-ID: <22F20184-E4C5-4137-A7C1-899120C37365@pski.net> >> On 01/05/2016 1:15 PM, Ali wrote: >> Anyone know anything about the custom computer and the custom OS? Nor implying anything but Chuck do u have any insights? ;) > Didn't Scotty leave his laptop behind when they were saving the whales? "Hello, computer!" From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 5 21:57:02 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 21:57:02 -0600 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <568C2EA9.6070605@sydex.com> <568C353A.7070802@sydex.com> Message-ID: On January 5, 2016 3:30:11 PM CST, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Can you enlighten us as to what sort of system/disk format it was? >> >> IIRC, it was several, mostly Japanese. I'd have to go back to my >notes from >> some time back. > >The picture of the one remaining whitebox with the two full-height >floppy drives did remind me of some of the early-to-mid-1980s Japanese >CP/M machines that were all but gone by 1985. > >-ethan so, is it believed that that is a picture of an actual machine involved? because that machine looks EXACTLY like a CP/M machine we built here in MN around 1979 at a company called Multi-Tech Systems (the modem people). It was a clone of a design done by another company called R2E which I seem to remember being French. The system initially used Micropolis 77 track, 100 TPI drives and a Micropolis controller design that was also used in Vector Graphic machines. Toward the end of that product's life at Multi-Tech, it had been upgraded to a GCR controller, with the same drives, and that controller had more horsepower than the host machine it plugged into :-). Machine was called MT-500 and was 64K Z80 at 4 MHz with (4) S-100 slots on the single board. Video was 8275 CRT controller and the tubes were usually amber. I still have one of these machines but without the ~40 lb cabinet it was usually built in. Sure looks similar to me. -- Chris Elmquist From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 6 11:42:43 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 12:42:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Conservation issue - shrink-wrapped manual Message-ID: <20160106174243.9BCB218C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I have a question for people who are involved in museums, and similar roles - how intense should I be about keeping things just as they were? I have a DEC manual (actually a Products Guide) still in its original shrink-wrap, and I'm interested in hearing opinions/rationales on whether or not I should keep it like that, as opposed to (carefully) opening it to be gain access to the content. Is there any value at all, historically, to keeping the original packaging intact, or should I just go ahead and open it? Thanks! Noel From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jan 6 11:52:24 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2016 12:52:24 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Specific Mallory cap... Message-ID: <580c01d148ab$00a38920$01ea9b60$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Hi all, I am in the process of restoring/recreating a linear PS as part of a project and I would like to use the original parts if possible. I'm looking for six Mallory axial electrolytic capacitors. The physical dimensions are 11mm in diameter by 44mm in length. They have a clear plastic wrap, so the aluminum silver color shows through. The printing on them goes around the circumference (not end to end) and reads: +-M-+ 2000 MF 10 V 20-48923 Electrically, they are (were) 2000uf, 10 volt. My bet is that these are mil-spec versions of Mallory's TT10X2000 capacitor. They physically match some Mallory TT15X1000 caps that I have in my parts box. I've been "beating the bushes" for a while now with no luck on the "20-48923" part number. I've also contacted all of the web site owners that claim to have TT10X2000s. They have all come back with "well, we don't actually seem to have that part after all". If anyone has either of the above, I'll pay a good price for them. They don't have to be in operational condition electronically, I'll "restuff" them if necessary. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From isking at uw.edu Wed Jan 6 11:57:13 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 09:57:13 -0800 Subject: Conservation issue - shrink-wrapped manual In-Reply-To: <20160106174243.9BCB218C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160106174243.9BCB218C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I have a question for people who are involved in museums, and similar > roles - how intense should I be about keeping things just as they were? > I have a DEC manual (actually a Products Guide) still in its original > shrink-wrap, and I'm interested in hearing opinions/rationales on whether > or > not I should keep it like that, as opposed to (carefully) opening it to be > gain access to the content. Is there any value at all, historically, to > keeping the original packaging intact, or should I just go ahead and open > it? > Thanks! > > Noel > IMHO: The 'original packaging' approach is more relevant for resale value of collectables, e.g., toys. Technology artifacts convey information beyond simple existence, and I would encourage anyone to explore that information! Now if one is keeping a database of museum artifacts, I would certainly note the original condition in that database, to serve as evidence that the artifact is almost certainly complete (i.e. no pages were removed or added). Then I'd open it up so it can be read! But keep in mind that I am of the opinion that vintage systems should be, to the extent possible, restored to running condition *and run*. :-) -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From isking at uw.edu Wed Jan 6 11:58:24 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 09:58:24 -0800 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: <00ed01d14809$360185b0$a2049110$@gmail.com> References: <00ed01d14809$360185b0$a2049110$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Cool, glad someone's snagging it. I wish, but I don't know where I'd put it. On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 2:34 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: > I'm on it... > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen > Slick > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 8:38 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) > > Someone go get this. > > posted: 2016-01-04 12:20pm > > http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5387506164.html > > I have the following HP 3000 computer equipment in my basement yours FREE > for removal > > QTY Description > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 2 HP 3000 series 30 Computers > 4 HP 7925 disk drives > 1 HP 2608A line printer > 1 HP 7970E tape drive > 2 HP 3000 Console Terminals > 3 HP 2645A terminals > 2 HP 2631A terminal printers > > The picture shown is of 3 disk drives and the Tape drive when new (1980). > This equipment has been mostly idle for 20+ years. The first 4 line items > of equipment above are relatively large and would require at least 2 men to > remove each item from my basement. > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Jan 6 12:09:08 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 13:09:08 -0500 Subject: Conservation issue - shrink-wrapped manual In-Reply-To: <20160106174243.9BCB218C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160106174243.9BCB218C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <568D5844.2040605@snarc.net> > So I have a question for people who are involved in museums, and similar > roles - how intense should I be about keeping things just as they were? There are a few things to consider. For example: 1. How rare/valuable is the item? 2. What else might be inside the package? 3. Will opening it cause any damage? 4. Can you store it in a suitable way after opening? A DEC product guide isn't very rare. One time, my group had an unopened box from a famous computer company. We decided to open it. It contained a far more precious artifact than we expected. Had we not opened it, we wouldn't have known what we had! You can always put the guide into a Zip-Lock bag or whatever. So I'd say open it. From wulfman at wulfman.com Wed Jan 6 12:35:57 2016 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 11:35:57 -0700 Subject: Wanted: Specific Mallory cap... In-Reply-To: <580c01d148ab$00a38920$01ea9b60$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <580c01d148ab$00a38920$01ea9b60$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <568D5E8D.3060400@wulfman.com> supply a picture if you can On 1/6/2016 10:52 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Hi all, > > I am in the process of restoring/recreating a linear > PS as part of a project and I would like to use the > original parts if possible. I'm looking for six > Mallory axial electrolytic capacitors. The physical > dimensions are 11mm in diameter by 44mm in length. > They have a clear plastic wrap, so the aluminum > silver color shows through. The printing on them > goes around the circumference (not end to end) and > reads: > > +-M-+ > 2000 MF 10 V > 20-48923 > > Electrically, they are (were) 2000uf, 10 volt. My > bet is that these are mil-spec versions of Mallory's > TT10X2000 capacitor. They physically match some > Mallory TT15X1000 caps that I have in my parts box. > I've been "beating the bushes" for a while now with > no luck on the "20-48923" part number. I've also > contacted all of the web site owners that claim to > have TT10X2000s. They have all come back with "well, > we don't actually seem to have that part after all". > > If anyone has either of the above, I'll pay a good > price for them. They don't have to be in operational > condition electronically, I'll "restuff" them if > necessary. > > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink > > > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jan 6 12:38:03 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 12:38:03 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Specific Mallory cap... In-Reply-To: <580c01d148ab$00a38920$01ea9b60$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <580c01d148ab$00a38920$01ea9b60$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00d701d148b1$60f2ef40$22d8cdc0$@com> http://5970.iso-group.com/Public/Search_Results.aspx?ss=10X2000 There are in stock here, according to their site. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Sudbrink Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 11:52 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Wanted: Specific Mallory cap... Hi all, I am in the process of restoring/recreating a linear PS as part of a project and I would like to use the original parts if possible. I'm looking for six Mallory axial electrolytic capacitors. The physical dimensions are 11mm in diameter by 44mm in length. They have a clear plastic wrap, so the aluminum silver color shows through. The printing on them goes around the circumference (not end to end) and reads: +-M-+ 2000 MF 10 V 20-48923 Electrically, they are (were) 2000uf, 10 volt. My bet is that these are mil-spec versions of Mallory's TT10X2000 capacitor. They physically match some Mallory TT15X1000 caps that I have in my parts box. I've been "beating the bushes" for a while now with no luck on the "20-48923" part number. I've also contacted all of the web site owners that claim to have TT10X2000s. They have all come back with "well, we don't actually seem to have that part after all". If anyone has either of the above, I'll pay a good price for them. They don't have to be in operational condition electronically, I'll "restuff" them if necessary. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jan 6 12:48:09 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2016 13:48:09 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Specific Mallory cap... In-Reply-To: <00d701d148b1$60f2ef40$22d8cdc0$@com> References: <580c01d148ab$00a38920$01ea9b60$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <00d701d148b1$60f2ef40$22d8cdc0$@com> Message-ID: <581701d148b2$c9ee20e0$5dca62a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Cindy Croxton wrote: > http://5970.iso-group.com/Public/Search_Results.aspx?ss=10X2000 > > There are in stock here, according to their site. Unfortunately, been there, done that, didn't even get the T-Shirt. Their email reply is all graphic'd up so I can't easily quote it, but in the middle of the quotation sheet, is the text "SORRY, NO STOCK". If you have an inside contact there (assuming they didn't want to sell to me due to the small nature of the order) and can buy them, I'll double your money. Bill S. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 6 13:03:41 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 19:03:41 +0000 Subject: Conservation issue - shrink-wrapped manual In-Reply-To: <20160106174243.9BCB218C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160106174243.9BCB218C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > So I have a question for people who are involved in museums, and similar > roles - how intense should I be about keeping things just as they were? Well, I don't fit into that category, but I'll give my tuppence-worth. > I have a DEC manual (actually a Products Guide) still in its original > shrink-wrap, and I'm interested in hearing opinions/rationales on whether or I know the feeling... About 25 years ago I managed to buy a shrink-rapped rare HP manual at a user group sale (actually the HP71 service manual). I amazed everyone there by immediately ripping off the shrink wrap. People told me that I had lost significant value by so doing. My reply was simple : 'I bought this manual to learn how to repair HP71 calculators. Not to look nice on the shelf. The value to me is the information it contains.' I guess if you have multiple copies of the same manual, or it's available on line and you don't mind reading it that way (personally I much prefer a paper manual) then there is no reason to open it. Otherwise, I say that a manual is there to be read. But then again I feel that old computers should run, even if it means putting replacement parts in. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 6 13:10:43 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 11:10:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Conservation issue - shrink-wrapped manual In-Reply-To: <568D5844.2040605@snarc.net> References: <20160106174243.9BCB218C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <568D5844.2040605@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 2016, Evan Koblentz wrote: > You can always put the guide into a Zip-Lock bag or whatever. > So I'd say open it. OTOH, if you want to SELL it, "original shrink wrap" provides an assurance to somebody who doesn't know you, that the contents are all there and undamaged - no pages missing, etc. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 13:21:28 2016 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 14:21:28 -0500 Subject: VCF East -- Brian Kernighan video In-Reply-To: <568BF895.4010302@snarc.net> References: <568BF895.4010302@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 12:08 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > You know you wanna watch. :) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUWt_StXKsY > excellent! now I have to try sam. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 6 15:02:30 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 13:02:30 -0800 Subject: Phone service; was; 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5686D8EA.8080806@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845E21.1000700@sydex.com> <5686C53E.2060607@sydex.com> <5686D287.8050207@cimmeri.com> <5686D8EA.8080806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <568D80E6.7070006@sydex.com> Today, while on on my walk, I ran into my favorite two Century Link techs at the lcoal DSLAM. When you see just one guy, maybe he's installing subscriber service, but two trucks generally means something's afoot. All the cabinets were open and there were various bits of gear scattered around. So I took the time to ask the guys about ATM vs. IP and got an interesting answer. It seems that the stuff in the boxes is part IP and part ATM--and they're having a devil of a time figuring out how to interface the two. Essentially the new IP stuff and the fiber are hooked up, but not servicing any subscribers--everyone is still running off the buried cable and ATM--and as the rainy season is upon us, this is proving to be problematical. Apparently, among other problems, it's getting difficult to find ATM gear anymore. They did apologize for the false "Real Soon Nows". So, maybe, if I live long enough, one of these days... --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 6 15:05:00 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 16:05:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Conservation issue - shrink-wrapped manual Message-ID: <20160106210500.E7C0118C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Evan Koblentz > 1. How rare/valuable is the item? Moderately rare, not very valuable. > 2. What else might be inside the package? Nothing - it's clear shrink-wrap around a loose-leaf manual. > 3. Will opening it cause any damage? No. > 4. Can you store it in a suitable way after opening? If I open it, I plan to store it in an original DEC three-ring binder.. :-) > From: Fred Cisin > OTOH, if you want to SELL it When it comes to me and PDP-11 stuff, 'cold dead hands'! :-) Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 6 15:25:21 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 21:25:21 -0000 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem Message-ID: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> I tried starting up my AlphaStation 200 today. All I get is some beeps and an LED diagnostic code that suggests the NVRAM test failed. I swapped the battery, as the old one was dead, but it still refused to work. I have tried connecting to the serial port and got nothing (although I could have a problem with using the correct cable etc). I even tried flipping the jumper that takes you to the mini console, to no avail. Does anyone have any suggestions for reviving this machine? Thanks Rob From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 6 15:38:36 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:38:36 +0000 (WET) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> > > I tried starting up my AlphaStation 200 today. All I get is some beeps and > an LED diagnostic code that suggests the NVRAM test failed. I swapped the > battery, as the old one was dead, but it still refused to work. I have tried > connecting to the serial port and got nothing (although I could have a > problem with using the correct cable etc). I even tried flipping the jumper > that takes you to the mini console, to no avail. > > > > Does anyone have any suggestions for reviving this machine? > I don't know if it applies to the AlphaStation 200 but I have a PWS 500a which defaults back to the AlphaBios firmware whenever the battery dies. After replacing the battery, I have to connect a keyboard and monitor and go through the AlphaBios menus to reset it to SRM. (If I don't replace the battery, it lets me go through the motions of resetting it but it never starts SRM.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From isking at uw.edu Wed Jan 6 17:00:23 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 15:00:23 -0800 Subject: Conservation issue - shrink-wrapped manual In-Reply-To: <20160106210500.E7C0118C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160106210500.E7C0118C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > > > From: Fred Cisin > > > OTOH, if you want to SELL it > > When it comes to me and PDP-11 stuff, 'cold dead hands'! :-) > > Noel > Implicit in the "involved in museums" domain: artifacts come in, they don't go back out except on loan. :-) -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 6 17:07:37 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 23:07:37 -0000 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan > Sent: 06 January 2016 21:39 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > > > > I tried starting up my AlphaStation 200 today. All I get is some beeps > > and an LED diagnostic code that suggests the NVRAM test failed. I > > swapped the battery, as the old one was dead, but it still refused to > > work. I have tried connecting to the serial port and got nothing > > (although I could have a problem with using the correct cable etc). I > > even tried flipping the jumper that takes you to the mini console, to no > avail. > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any suggestions for reviving this machine? > > > > I don't know if it applies to the AlphaStation 200 but I have a PWS 500a which > defaults back to the AlphaBios firmware whenever the battery dies. After > replacing the battery, I have to connect a keyboard and monitor and go > through the AlphaBios menus to reset it to SRM. (If I don't replace the > battery, it lets me go through the motions of resetting it but it never starts > SRM.) > I believe this reversion back to AlphaBios does indeed apply to the AlphaStation 200 too. But in my case nothing appears on the monitor and nothing appears on the serial port either, I just get some beeps and a LED diagnostic code. It is possible that I have a cabling issue with the serial port, but I did try a few combinations. If I know that I should expect output on the serial port despite an NVRAM self-test failure then I could investigate that further with my breakout box (don't have a protocol analyser). Regards Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 6 18:49:59 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 19:49:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Conservation issue - shrink-wrapped manual Message-ID: <20160107004959.F03E918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ian S. King > Implicit in the "involved in museums" domain: artifacts come in, they > don't go back out except on loan. :-) What, you've never heard of 'de-acquisitioning'? (Boy, that one sure wins the George Orwell Memorial NewSpeak award...) Noel From isking at uw.edu Wed Jan 6 19:31:30 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 17:31:30 -0800 Subject: Conservation issue - shrink-wrapped manual In-Reply-To: <20160107004959.F03E918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160107004959.F03E918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I have, but I try not to think about it - gotta keep the blood pressure under control.... On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:49 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ian S. King > > > Implicit in the "involved in museums" domain: artifacts come in, they > > don't go back out except on loan. :-) > > What, you've never heard of 'de-acquisitioning'? (Boy, that one sure wins > the > George Orwell Memorial NewSpeak award...) > > Noel > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 19:42:13 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 20:42:13 -0500 Subject: Conservation issue - shrink-wrapped manual In-Reply-To: <20160107004959.F03E918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160107004959.F03E918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: The proper term is "deaccession". -- Will On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ian S. King > > > Implicit in the "involved in museums" domain: artifacts come in, they > > don't go back out except on loan. :-) > > What, you've never heard of 'de-acquisitioning'? (Boy, that one sure wins the > George Orwell Memorial NewSpeak award...) > > Noel From ball.of.john at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 20:05:47 2016 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 18:05:47 -0800 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Marc, this is a good reason for anyone to convert their old rec room into a machine room. Just make sure to paint the walls brown and fit wall-to-wall orange carpeting. ;) I was seriously tempted on this myself but even picking up ONE 7925 from Idaho was an astounding task. A whole setup in Denver? That's nuts. -John >Cool, glad someone's snagging it. I wish, but I don't know where I'd put >it. > >On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 2:34 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: > >> I'm on it... >> Marc >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen >> Slick >> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 8:38 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) >> >> Someone go get this. >> >> posted: 2016-01-04 12:20pm >> >> http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5387506164.html >> >> I have the following HP 3000 computer equipment in my basement yours FREE >> for removal >> >>--TRIMMED-- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 6 20:14:42 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 19:14:42 -0700 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <568DCA12.3020901@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/6/2016 7:05 PM, John Ball wrote: > Marc, this is a good reason for anyone to convert their old rec room into a > machine room. Just make sure to paint the walls brown and fit wall-to-wall > orange carpeting. ;) But where do you get the 2016 Line Printer Calender? From jws at jwsss.com Wed Jan 6 20:36:58 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 18:36:58 -0800 Subject: Conservation issue - shrink-wrapped manual In-Reply-To: References: <20160107004959.F03E918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <568DCF4A.1000805@jwsss.com> On 1/6/2016 5:42 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > The proper term is "deaccession". > > -- > Will > > On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Ian S. King >> >> > Implicit in the "involved in museums" domain: artifacts come in, they >> > don't go back out except on loan. :-) >> >> What, you've never heard of 'de-acquisitioning'? (Boy, that one sure wins the >> George Orwell Memorial NewSpeak award...) >> >> Noel I think the condition issue applies if the artifact has some collectors value. The museums will document how an artifact gets to them and though they probably don't want bugs crawling out of holes in the item, if it fits their collection at all they'll take it. Also the prior ownership / use might be of interest, so that will mean it probably isn't shrink wrapped. Collectors of comics and books and such as baseball trading cards value the condition but I don't think such as chipped edges, folds, original shrink wrap matters that much. If it was shrink wrapped and in some nice convenient cover or such then I'd want the copy with the cover, but shrink wrapped wouldn't matter much to me. Evan makes the point of checking the artifact too, which you can't do with a shrink wrapped item. The shrink wrap plastic may eventually deteriorate if you have the wrong stuff, so that might be a reason to unwrap it too. Thanks jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 6 21:17:42 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 19:17:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: <568DCA12.3020901@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <568DCA12.3020901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >> Marc, this is a good reason for anyone to convert their old rec room into a >> machine room. Just make sure to paint the walls brown and fit wall-to-wall >> orange carpeting. ;) On Wed, 6 Jan 2016, ben wrote: > But where do you get the 2016 Line Printer Calender? 2016 has the same days of the week to date structure as 1988 and 1960. Use those years. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 21:26:57 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 22:26:57 -0500 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: <568DCA12.3020901@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <568DCA12.3020901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 9:14 PM, ben wrote: jp2a --width=76 snoopy.jpg | lpr cal 2016 | lpr From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 21:27:39 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 22:27:39 -0500 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: <568DCA12.3020901@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <568DCA12.3020901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 9:14 PM, ben wrote: > But where do you get the 2016 Line Printer Calender? jp2a --width=76 snoopy.jpg | lpr cal 2016 | lpr -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 7 00:30:08 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 23:30:08 -0700 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: References: <568DCA12.3020901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <568E05F0.2080700@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/6/2016 8:27 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 9:14 PM, ben wrote: >> But where do you get the 2016 Line Printer Calender? > > jp2a --width=76 snoopy.jpg | lpr > cal 2016 | lpr > > -ethan > As the printer chugs away, on second thought I want the NUDE. Ben. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 7 04:12:55 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 11:12:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > 1) if the alignment of the head of the original recording and of the > overwrite head are not a perfect match, then there can be some residual data > somewhat off axis. At a first thought I don't see how there can be residual data because there is the tunnel erase head after the R/W head. The drives must be very misaligned (i.e. more than the width of one erase half) to still have residual data. > 2) if the data was overwritten once, with a known pattern, then somebody with > sufficient resources and motivation can attempt to analyze the noise, and > determine "what, overwritten by a 0 could produce the noise that we have > here." Accordingly, there are guvmint standards of MULTIPLE patterns to That is why you don't take /dev/zero but /dev/[u]random for overwriting data. Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jan 7 06:40:52 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 12:40:52 +0000 Subject: Front panel update Message-ID: <568E5CD4.5050901@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Just got back from the silk screeners. Panels everywhere!! Final layers (Amber and white ) going on. Customising insets for type A and B ready Front is now matt black as per requests. They are sourcing some ready made packaging and plastic cloth. Its that soft stuff you get round hifi's and TV's etc. I have some pictures I took on the wifes iPad. If I can get them off on to my PC I can send then out. I'm working on a Web server as focal point for everything panel. In addition to DEC Straight 8, 8/e (A or B), 8/f and 8/m, I also have artwork for IBM 360 and Burroughs 3500 PDP 11/40 (PDP10) thru 11/70 are under way. Regards Rod From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 7 08:03:32 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 09:03:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-8 core memory for sale (_not_ from me) Message-ID: <20160107140332.B385718C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So there's this item: http://www.ebay.com/itm/262217954449 I'm not an -8 person, so maybe there's some reason nobody's biting, but if not, I thought I'd point it out. Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jan 7 08:24:45 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 14:24:45 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 core memory for sale (_not_ from me) In-Reply-To: <20160107140332.B385718C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160107140332.B385718C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <568E752D.5050107@btinternet.com> On 07/01/2016 14:03, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So there's this item: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262217954449 > > I'm not an -8 person, so maybe there's some reason nobody's biting, > but if not, I thought I'd point it out. > > Noel Core is quite delicate stuff. I'd want to see a good long printout of a repeated core test. Rod From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 7 08:36:02 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 09:36:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <201601071436.JAA21033@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] > [...] Is there really an application for which multiple overwrites are called for but for which thermite is not a better answer? It seems to me that if the data are risky enough that you have to worry about anyone opening the drive in a cleanroom and trying palimpsest magnetic-pattern recovery, surely new drives are cheap enough that the security of melting the drive into a puddle of liquid metal is easily worth the cost. But, of course, I don't work in that space, so it's entirely possible I'm just missing something. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 7 09:42:08 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 07:42:08 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 core memory for sale (_not_ from me) In-Reply-To: <20160107140332.B385718C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160107140332.B385718C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01816D61-9675-4D33-AA24-7865B36F4FFA@aracnet.com> > On Jan 7, 2016, at 6:03 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > So there's this item: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262217954449 > > I'm not an -8 person, so maybe there's some reason nobody's biting, > but if not, I thought I'd point it out. > > Noel It could be because there is no core plane shown in any of the photo?s. :-) The H219A control board needs an H220 core stack. This is only of use if you have a bad control board. Zane From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Thu Jan 7 09:52:28 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 08:52:28 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 core memory for sale (_not_ from me) In-Reply-To: <20160107140332.B385718C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160107140332.B385718C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: That particular card only works in an 8/a chassis so the market is more limited for them. In the 8/a world people want the H219b card since it is a 16k card. In the omnibus world apart from the 8/a everyone wants cards for the E,F, & M chassis since they can have a "Real" front panel. I think I have four H219a cards I am not using or I would probably buy it for that price. My grail card is the MMU card for the 128k semiconductor card. I dont't remember the part number but the only one I ever saw for sale they wanted way too much for it. On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 7:03 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So there's this item: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262217954449 > > I'm not an -8 person, so maybe there's some reason nobody's biting, > but if not, I thought I'd point it out. > > Noel > -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 09:59:52 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 10:59:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 core memory for sale (_not_ from me) In-Reply-To: References: <20160107140332.B385718C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > That particular card only works in an 8/a chassis so the market is more > limited for them. In the 8/a world people want the H219b card since it is > a 16k card. Yep. Most of the hex-wide core systems I've seen had 1x or 2x H219B. I sold my hex-wide core back in the 80s and went with MOS. > My grail card is the MMU card for the 128k semiconductor card. I > dont't remember the part number but the only one I ever saw for sale they > wanted way too much for it. It's the KT8A. I have one (and 128K of MOS to go with it). It's only really useful as a RAM disk for OS/8 or if you are one of the very few people who ran RTS-8 (I built an RTS-8 system back in the day, with a 32K OS/8 "task". I didn't have a "real" purpose for RTS-8, so it was all just for learning. You couldn't do two OS/8 tasks, so it wasn't like you could have two users on the same CPU at the same time). -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 7 10:43:01 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 08:43:01 -0800 Subject: Conservation issue - shrink-wrapped manual In-Reply-To: <20160106174243.9BCB218C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160106174243.9BCB218C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <568E9595.40105@bitsavers.org> On 1/6/16 9:42 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I have a DEC manual (actually a Products Guide) still in its original > shrink-wrap, and I'm interested in hearing opinions/rationales on whether or > not I should keep it like that The CHM archivists tell me shrink wrap will continue to shrink, and it should be removed. We also don't keep vinyl binders, because they outgas and get sticky over time. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 7 11:36:31 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 09:36:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: >> 1) if the alignment of the head of the original recording and of the >> overwrite head are not a perfect match, then there can be some residual >> data somewhat off axis. On Thu, 7 Jan 2016, Christian Corti wrote: > At a first thought I don't see how there can be residual data because there > is the tunnel erase head after the R/W head. The drives must be very > misaligned (i.e. more than the width of one erase half) to still have > residual data. Yes, that makes sense. But, the erase head probably doesn't scramble the weak residual flux transitions as much as overwriting does. >> 2) if the data was overwritten once, with a known pattern, then somebody >> with sufficient resources and motivation can attempt to analyze the noise, >> and determine "what, overwritten by a 0 could produce the noise that we >> have here." Accordingly, there are guvmint standards of MULTIPLE patterns >> to > That is why you don't take /dev/zero but /dev/[u]random for overwriting data. Even then, since the s'posedly random data that was used for overwrite is still readable, leading to, "OK, here's what's currently on it, what prior recording would generate THIS background noise?", thus, a scond overwrite of a different pattern would render it past any "reasonable" efforts. I've heard that there are "standards" for a number of overwrites, and what patterns to use, . . . But, as I mentioned before, the most thorough protection of all, is to be too boring for it to be worth any effort at all. 'Course extremely violent total destruction of the drive has its own emotional benefit! I suspect that most of the stuff that impresses the hell out of outsiders to the field is really nothing more than patching DIRectories to "UNERASE" files that haven't even been overwritten. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 7 12:13:16 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 10:13:16 -0800 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> On 01/07/2016 09:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I've heard that there are "standards" for a number of overwrites, and > what patterns to use, . . . The paper that got the most notice was from Peter Gutmann from the early 90s. https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 7 12:58:10 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 10:58:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> I've heard that there are "standards" for a number of overwrites, and >> what patterns to use, . . . On Thu, 7 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The paper that got the most notice was from Peter Gutmann from the early 90s. > https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html Thank you! That answers most of our ignorant questions. I wonder what the cost is to do those techniques. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Jan 7 13:46:46 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 19:46:46 +0000 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: <568E05F0.2080700@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <568DCA12.3020901@jetnet.ab.ca> <568E05F0.2080700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC8865A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: ben Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 10:30 PM > On 1/6/2016 8:27 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 9:14 PM, ben wrote: >>> But where do you get the 2016 Line Printer Calender? >> jp2a --width=76 snoopy.jpg | lpr >> cal 2016 | lpr > As the printer chugs away, on second thought I want the NUDE. You'll have to be more specific. Which one? Rich From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 13:50:10 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 14:50:10 -0500 Subject: Floppy recovery References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 1:58 PM Subject: Re: Floppy recovery >>> I've heard that there are "standards" for a number of overwrites, and >>> what patterns to use, . . . > > On Thu, 7 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The paper that got the most notice was from Peter Gutmann from the early 90s. >> https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html > > Thank you! > > That answers most of our ignorant questions. > > > I wonder what the cost is to do those techniques. > Well, if you don't have access to thermite or even a large sledgehammer then this recommendation of his might be a cost-effective solution: http://www.diskstroyer.com/Home.html Even if you do have that sledgehammer this might be useful as a preprocessing step before final treatment with the aforementioned hammer. I'm fortunate in already having some of the tools in this kit and some experience in their use and I can highly recommend this technique, not only for data destruction but also for relaxation and a source of various unique parts. I wonder how many of those clocks made from HD platters contain sensitive information; definitely something else to worry about... ;-) From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 13:59:39 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 15:59:39 -0400 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> Message-ID: <568EC3AB.60109@gmail.com> On 2016-01-07 3:50 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Cisin" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 1:58 PM > Subject: Re: Floppy recovery > > >>>> I've heard that there are "standards" for a number of overwrites, and >>>> what patterns to use, . . . >> On Thu, 7 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> The paper that got the most notice was from Peter Gutmann from the early 90s. >>> https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html >> Thank you! >> >> That answers most of our ignorant questions. >> >> >> I wonder what the cost is to do those techniques. >> > Well, if you don't have access to thermite or even a large sledgehammer then this recommendation of his might be a cost-effective solution: > > http://www.diskstroyer.com/Home.html > > Even if you do have that sledgehammer this might be useful as a preprocessing step before final treatment with the aforementioned hammer. > > I'm fortunate in already having some of the tools in this kit and some experience in their use and I can highly recommend this technique, not only for data destruction but also for relaxation and a source of various unique parts. > > I wonder how many of those clocks made from HD platters contain sensitive information; definitely something else to worry about... > > ;-) With modern disks that have glass platters two techniques I have used are: 1. Drive a center punch trough the lid, there are usually convenient holes covered with labels to make it easy if you don't want to drive it through the metal. 2. Slam the drive down hard and flat on a cement floor when the drive sounds like a maraca you are done. The first is a little more sure as you will almost always shatter all the platter in one go. Paul. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 7 14:08:58 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 15:08:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Secure disk destruction [was Re: Floppy recovery] In-Reply-To: <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> Message-ID: <201601072008.PAA04318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Well, if you don't have access to thermite [...] Actually, red heat is well above the Curie temperature for most media, isn't it? You could chuck the platters into the coals of a bonfire, let them get up to a nice cherry red. Depending on what the platters are made of, this might even melt them, which should effectively destroy any organization in the material that once formed a thin film on them. If not, it should demagnetize the coating.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 13:30:05 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 14:30:05 -0500 Subject: I COULD JUST KICK MYSELF IN THE BUTT!!! commodore pet . . . Message-ID: <568C19BD.1090508@gmail.com> Back in the mid to late 90's I used to go to the Salvation Army store every day before work because I worked night shift and the lady at the counter used to have a crush on me and would set aside all old computer stuff for me. Well one day I went in and I seen her wheeling me out a Commodore PET with the calculator keyboard witch drove me insane trying to program on that lil keyboard lolol. I got it for 10.00 FREAKING BUCKS yes TEN F.R.E.A.K.I.N.G. BUCKKKKKSKSKSKSSKSKS}{PJDGHLGFO GRRRRRRR Sorry about that I almost just broke my keyboard just telling this story lol anyway I played with it and this was just before AOL went from 20.00 for 15 hrs of INTERNET time to 19.99 unlimited net time. I don't know if any of you remember when they switched over to the unlimited monthly plan but as for in Oregon AOL Servers crashed for about 3 months from such a heavy load of members dialing up and connecting quick question here _*<------- Did this happen in your area if so where were you?*_ Anyway back to the commodore PET I snatched that baby up and most of my information I got for older computers back then was the library I used to spend HOURS AND HOURS reading and learning how to program in BASIC I had no idea what all the ports in the back were for I was just happy to have the built-in tape drive. I was programming a " ROCK n ROLL TRIVIA GAME" boy I got in such big trouble because Cd's where the new thing then so I had no blank tapes so I remember I got busted from my mom, She was so mad at me because I use a TAMMY FAY BAKKER from the Jim Bakker PTL show tape in my Commodore PET Computer lol Well just about this time all the "TREE HUGGER'S" Were using the SPOTTED OWL to bring the logging industry to it's knees! so about that time a friend of mine from central America and offered me a job in the Oil industry and I up and left everything behind but I must admit a year before that my Mother bought me my first PC it was a Amega 486 DX66 with 8meg of ram and I was getting very interested in HTML web programming I think my first FREE HOSTING website was on GEOCITYS. ANYway I hate myself for leaving my MINT condition Commodore PET when I moved but I had alot of other life choices to be dealing with at the time... From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Thu Jan 7 13:13:29 2016 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 20:13:29 +0100 Subject: s100 Message-ID: <568EB8D9.4090502@radio-astronomie.com> hello everyone , first am 1 on the correct channel?? I have several S100 boards , found 25 years ago, kept in my cellar and forgotten....fortunately they are still in good conditions , all circuits are standard ttl (only a few proms) ,and all circuits are on sockets so all is easy to repair. I cleaned and repaired the power supply (only one capacitor exploded ) , I have the correct voltages +- 19v ,+9V on the backplane , now the power supply works . I have very few documentations only a few booklets with configuration data on some of the boards , no schematic. The maker was a french company named ADD-X ,located near Toulouse south west of France . Machines ran cpm/mpm . I have boards of several configurations : *cpu boards with Z80,64k of dynamic rams and 2708 . There are configuration switches around the eprom socket to use 2708 or 2716 . I wonder how it is possible to address more than 64K (rams+eprom)with a Z80 . I need documentation about it . On Ebay I found a Z64 board that is identical , I cannot contact the seller , I tried to get informations ... he does not accept emails. Does anyone know that Z64 ? *boards with 4 rs232+1 ppi *boards with 2 rs232+1ppi+1 fdc configurable for 8 inches or 5 inches floppys. *hdc controllers with one hard disk I also have disquettes,and backplanes . I need informations on the S100/cpm systems , how are boards addressed , it is something like qbus/unibus : fixed address for each category of board,is the console at a fixed address???etc . Since that epoch I have all the classic books from R.Zaks about microprocessors and cpm , there are very few informations on the S100 bus. I built a system with a cpu and a board with RS232 and fdc,I connected the terminal to the port labeled 'con0'(console 0??) ,nothing happened on the terminal. It may be lots of thing from a dead cpu or eprom to rs232 driver . I did not test more for today. I want to build a small system with a monitor in rom to examine/modify ram , registers just to learn Z80 . What monitor can be used ? I have what is necessary to compile and burn eproms . Thanks for your help . I have lots of questions.I can send photos to identify boards . Best regards Alain Nierveze From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Thu Jan 7 13:41:14 2016 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 20:41:14 +0100 Subject: s100 In-Reply-To: <568EB8D9.4090502@radio-astronomie.com> References: <568EB8D9.4090502@radio-astronomie.com> Message-ID: <568EBF5A.6050100@radio-astronomie.com> Sujet : Date : De : Pour : hello everyone , first am 1 on the correct channel?? I have several S100 boards , found 25 years ago, kept in my cellar and forgotten....fortunately they are still in good conditions , all circuits are standard ttl (only a few proms) ,and all circuits are on sockets so all is easy to repair. I cleaned and repaired the power supply (only one capacitor exploded ) , I have the correct voltages +- 19v ,+9V on the backplane , now the power supply works . I have very few documentations only a few booklets with configuration data on some of the boards , no schematic. The maker was a french company named ADD-X ,located near Toulouse south west of France . Machines ran cpm/mpm . I have boards of several configurations : *cpu boards with Z80,64k of dynamic rams and 2708 . There are configuration switches around the eprom socket to use 2708 or 2716 . I wonder how it is possible to address more than 64K (rams+eprom)with a Z80 . I need documentation about it . On Ebay I found a Z64 board that is identical , I cannot contact the seller , I tried to get informations ... he does not accept emails. Does anyone know that Z64 ? *boards with 4 rs232+1 ppi *boards with 2 rs232+1ppi+1 fdc configurable for 8 inches or 5 inches floppys. *hdc controllers with one hard disk I also have disquettes,and backplanes . I need informations on the S100/cpm systems , how are boards addressed , it is something like qbus/unibus : fixed address for each category of board,is the console at a fixed address???etc . Since that epoch I have all the classic books from R.Zaks about microprocessors and cpm , there are very few informations on the S100 bus. I built a system with a cpu and a board with RS232 and fdc,I connected the terminal to the port labeled 'con0'(console 0??) ,nothing happened on the terminal. It may be lots of thing from a dead cpu or eprom to rs232 driver . I did not test more for today. I want to build a small system with a monitor in rom to examine/modify ram , registers just to learn Z80 . What monitor can be used ? I have what is necessary to compile and burn eproms . Thanks for your help . I have lots of questions.I can send photos to identify boards . Best regards Alain Nierveze From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 7 14:17:10 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 15:17:10 -0500 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <03D802BA-8171-4E70-813B-DBA61EE74511@comcast.net> > On Jan 7, 2016, at 1:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 01/07/2016 09:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> I've heard that there are "standards" for a number of overwrites, and >> what patterns to use, . . . > > The paper that got the most notice was from Peter Gutmann from the early 90s. > > https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html Oh yes, one of my favorite topics. I get a lot of questions where people refer to "the DoD wiping standard". Unfortunately, there isn't one. There are some very old documents that give suggestions, but those seem to have expired long ago. Gutmann's document is similarly old. Any decade-old rule suffers from the fact that drive technology has changed drastically, and considerations that were valid then are no longer valid. Gutmann did great work at the time, and his contribution deserves to be honored, but it has very much been superseded by technology change. Tracks are so much smaller and margins so tiny that multiple erasures don't add much if anything. On the other hand, block replacement, and especially the write remapping done by SSDs, can leave stuff in places you can't even see until you take the device apart. In fact, hard drives are not much of an issue, but SSDs should make you worry. Incineration should work, but use enough heat. Shredding is questionable, unless the particles are very small. I think high end shredders are required to produce particles less than 1/32 inch in size. Much more recent work on erase was done by Gordon Hughes at UCSD. See http://cmrr.ucsd.edu/people/Hughes/secure-erase.html for more. If you want data security and don't like destroying your hardware, SED ("self-encrypting drives") are a solution. Those encrypt all data, and "erase" by discarding and replacing the data encryption key. So all your sectors instantly turn to random noise. SSD versions of those are starting to appear, which addresses the invisible old copies problem that regular SSDs have. The great thing of an SED is not just the security of its erase function, but in particular the speed: it takes only seconds to destroy all the data on the drive. paul From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 14:24:06 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 15:24:06 -0500 Subject: I COULD JUST KICK MYSELF IN THE BUTT!!! commodore pet . . . In-Reply-To: <568C19BD.1090508@gmail.com> References: <568C19BD.1090508@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I don't know if > any of you remember when they switched over to the unlimited monthly > plan but as for in Oregon AOL Servers crashed for about 3 months from > such a heavy load of members dialing up and connecting quick question > here _*<------- Did this happen in your area if so where were you?*_ Yes, I remember those times. I was everywhere. -- Will, ex william at ans.net From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 14:33:28 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 13:33:28 -0700 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <03D802BA-8171-4E70-813B-DBA61EE74511@comcast.net> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <03D802BA-8171-4E70-813B-DBA61EE74511@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > If you want data security and don't like destroying your hardware, SED ("self-encrypting drives") are a solution. Those encrypt all data, and "erase" by discarding and replacing the data encryption key. So all your sectors instantly turn to random noise. SSD versions of those are starting to appear, which addresses the invisible old copies problem that regular SSDs have. The great thing of an SED is not just the security of its erase function, but in particular the speed: it takes only seconds to destroy all the data on the drive. You're assuming that the SED doesn't store an extra copy of the decryption key in NVM or on the medium. IMO, that's a very naive assumption. Also, reverse-engineering has shown that at least some SEDs have very bad crypto implementations. Even if your SED doesn't have a back door or badly implemented crypto, you also have to worry about whether someone has managed to install compromised firmware on it. People once thought that hacked drive firmware was too difficult or expensive to develop for anyone other than three-letter agencies, but that's been proven false. I'm OK with an SED being a component of the data security solution, but I'm not willing to count on it exclusively. I'll still run software disk encryption. Preferably open-source software disk encryption, so that the source code can be audited, though that's not a guarantee either. One might expect that simple security measures would be enough as long as the threat model you're concerned with isn't three-letter agencies. Unfortunately any back doors or badly implemented crypto, whether installed by TLAs or just through incompetence, are likely to be exploited by many miscreants, not just TLAs. If your threat model IS three-letter agencies, you're basically doomed from the outset. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 7 14:42:24 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 15:42:24 -0500 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <03D802BA-8171-4E70-813B-DBA61EE74511@comcast.net> Message-ID: <93F67AFC-97CE-4735-8B9B-6661A0C74A2B@comcast.net> > On Jan 7, 2016, at 3:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> If you want data security and don't like destroying your hardware, SED ("self-encrypting drives") are a solution. Those encrypt all data, and "erase" by discarding and replacing the data encryption key. So all your sectors instantly turn to random noise. SSD versions of those are starting to appear, which addresses the invisible old copies problem that regular SSDs have. The great thing of an SED is not just the security of its erase function, but in particular the speed: it takes only seconds to destroy all the data on the drive. > > You're assuming that the SED doesn't store an extra copy of the > decryption key in NVM or on the medium. IMO, that's a very naive > assumption. Also, reverse-engineering has shown that at least some > SEDs have very bad crypto implementations. True. I know of at least one first generation SED that uses ECB mode. Anyone who has looked at IEEE 802.11 knows that cryptographic competence is not common, and that some of the people designing cryptosystems are not only unqualified to do so, but sufficiently ignorant that the aren't even aware that they aren't qualified. With SEDs as with any other security tool, one has to be sceptical and ask very pointed questions. For example, with the SSD kind, I probed deeply into how the key is replaced in a "crypto erase" operation, down to the level of the flash memory primitives involved. The particular implementation I looked at had the correct answers. > Even if your SED doesn't have a back door or badly implemented crypto, > you also have to worry about whether someone has managed to install > compromised firmware on it. People once thought that hacked drive > firmware was too difficult or expensive to develop for anyone other > than three-letter agencies, but that's been proven false. The key here is the use of signed firmware, which I believe is the normal practice. With that, it's not just a matter of reverse engineering, the attacker would also have to steal the firmware signing key. > I'm OK with an SED being a component of the data security solution, > but I'm not willing to count on it exclusively. I'll still run > software disk encryption. Preferably open-source software disk > encryption, so that the source code can be audited, though that's not > a guarantee either. Agreed. I've been a TrueCrypt user ever since DriveCrypt went off track. > One might expect that simple security measures would be enough as long > as the threat model you're concerned with isn't three-letter agencies. > Unfortunately any back doors or badly implemented crypto, whether > installed by TLAs or just through incompetence, are likely to be > exploited by many miscreants, not just TLAs. > > If your threat model IS three-letter agencies, you're basically doomed > from the outset. Maybe so. But you can definitely make things much harder, which is worth doing. paul From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 15:33:04 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 16:33:04 -0500 Subject: Cloning a PCB References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56A0D903444540D388FD5A0F090BD5DF@310e2> Any suggestions/hints/experience/links regarding the best/easiest way to clone a (two-sided) PCB, i.e. create a Gerber or equivalent file from a PCB layout instead of a schematic? TIA, m From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 7 16:08:52 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 14:08:52 -0800 Subject: s100 In-Reply-To: <568EB8D9.4090502@radio-astronomie.com> References: <568EB8D9.4090502@radio-astronomie.com> Message-ID: <1421C2CD-73DA-46D9-AF51-99932AFAC73F@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Jan-07, at 11:13 AM, nierveze wrote: > first am 1 on the correct channel?? > I have several S100 boards , found 25 years ago, > ... > I wonder how it is possible to address more than 64K (rams+eprom)with a Z80 . S100 memory boards often incorporated a bank-switching scheme to allow for multiple 64K banks in the system. The convention was a dedicated I/O port number (0x40?) to which one writes a bit pattern to select the desired bank. Such memory boards have configuration switches to set their bank ID/number. For a system to use this scheme, all the memory boards in the system are to be listening on that same port, waiting to recognise their ID. There's also the PHANTOM line on the bus, used to allow a bootstrap ROM to take precedence over some address space at reset/power-on, thus overlaying some RAM during boot. The ROM is switched out at some point to allow access to full RAM. > I need documentation about it . Best sourcess for S100 board docs are: http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Index%20Page.htm and http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/ Seems to be a lot of duplication between the two, I'm not sure which site the (duplicate) material originated on (who's copying whom). There's also this site, although I'm not as familiar with it: http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 16:11:39 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 14:11:39 -0800 Subject: Cloning a PCB In-Reply-To: <56A0D903444540D388FD5A0F090BD5DF@310e2> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <56A0D903444540D388FD5A0F090BD5DF@310e2> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Any suggestions/hints/experience/links regarding the best/easiest way to clone a (two-sided) PCB, i.e. create a Gerber or equivalent file from a PCB layout instead of a schematic? > Easiest? Throw some money at having someone do the work for you. Grant at http://altairkit.com says that he used these people to scan and replicate some vintage PCBs: http://www.mhtest.com/scanning.shtml No idea how much that costs. Probably in the if you have to ask you can't afford it range. From wulfman at wulfman.com Thu Jan 7 16:21:17 2016 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 15:21:17 -0700 Subject: Cloning a PCB In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <56A0D903444540D388FD5A0F090BD5DF@310e2> Message-ID: <568EE4DD.2020900@wulfman.com> I reverse engineer boards as a hobby i produce full schematics and can also replicate PC boards I have the boards produced in china. should be cheaper now that china is crashing and burning just takes time and money On 1/7/2016 3:11 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> Any suggestions/hints/experience/links regarding the best/easiest way to clone a (two-sided) PCB, i.e. create a Gerber or equivalent file from a PCB layout instead of a schematic? >> > Easiest? Throw some money at having someone do the work for you. > > Grant at http://altairkit.com says that he used these people to scan > and replicate some vintage PCBs: http://www.mhtest.com/scanning.shtml > > No idea how much that costs. Probably in the if you have to ask you > can't afford it range. > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Jan 7 17:09:16 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2016 00:09:16 +0100 Subject: Secure disk destruction [was Re: Floppy recovery] In-Reply-To: <201601072008.PAA04318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> <201601072008.PAA04318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1452208156.1783.67.camel@agj.net> tor 2016-01-07 klockan 15:08 -0500 skrev Mouse: > > Well, if you don't have access to thermite [...] > > Actually, red heat is well above the Curie temperature for most media, > isn't it? You could chuck the platters into the coals of a bonfire, > let them get up to a nice cherry red. Depending on what the platters > are made of, this might even melt them, which should effectively > destroy any organization in the material that once formed a thin film > on them. If not, it should demagnetize the coating.... Unhealthy. I would expect that to generate a fair amount of sulphuric and hydrochloric acid. A fair bit of the shit inside the HD also would end up in the nearby soil. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 7 17:52:01 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 18:52:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <93F67AFC-97CE-4735-8B9B-6661A0C74A2B@comcast.net> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <03D802BA-8171-4E70-813B-DBA61EE74511@comcast.net> <93F67AFC-97CE-4735-8B9B-6661A0C74A2B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201601072352.SAA24298@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> If you want data security and don't like destroying your hardware, >>> SED ("sel$ >> You're assuming that the SED doesn't store an extra copy of the >> decryption key in NVM or on the medium. That was my initial reaction too! >> Also, reverse-engineering has shown that at least some SEDs have >> very bad crypto implementations. I was not aware of that, but (and this is a depressing commentary on _something_) it does not surprise me in the least. >> Even if your SED doesn't have a back door or badly implemented >> crypto, you also have to worry about whether someone has managed to >> install compromised firmware on it. > The key here is the use of signed firmware, which I believe is the normal pr$ That's hardly a fix; all it does is somewhat reduce the pool of people who can create the compromised firmware. I don't trust the vendor's internal security to keep the key from leaking and I don't trust the vendor's HR security to prevent malware authors from making it to the inside, and I *sure* don't trust the vendor to resist a request from law enforcement for an easy-to-access backdoor (which will, of course, promptly get abused, either by others or for other purposes). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jan 7 18:03:10 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 16:03:10 -0800 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <201601072352.SAA24298@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <03D802BA-8171-4E70-813B-DBA61EE74511@comcast.net> <93F67AFC-97CE-4735-8B9B-6661A0C74A2B@comcast.net> <201601072352.SAA24298@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <74A40865-4A4E-4BA5-9542-6B9724E97ABE@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 7, 2016, at 3:52 PM, Mouse wrote: > > >>> Even if your SED doesn't have a back door or badly implemented >>> crypto, you also have to worry about whether someone has managed to >>> install compromised firmware on it. >> The key here is the use of signed firmware, which I believe is the normal pr$ > > That's hardly a fix; all it does is somewhat reduce the pool of people > who can create the compromised firmware. I don't trust the vendor's > internal security to keep the key from leaking and I don't trust the > vendor's HR security to prevent malware authors from making it to the > inside, and I *sure* don't trust the vendor to resist a request from > law enforcement for an easy-to-access backdoor (which will, of course, > promptly get abused, either by others or for other purposes). > I don?t know if it?s typical or not, but every company that I?ve worked for that has managed crypto-keys has taken key security *very* seriously. For example, the key generating system (usually something custom) is kept in an ?air gapped? vault (and I *do* mean vault). The vault can only be opened when two authorized individuals are present (ie neither one can get into the vault without the other). Everything is tracked and audited on a regular basis. One big semi-conductor company does it this way (I have personal knowledge). I also helped set up this type of crypo-key management for one of the startups I worked for once upon a time (even to the point where they crypto-key hardware would ?self destruct? if tampered with?sorry no sparks, smoke or other visual aids?it just erased itself). TTFN - Guy From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 7 18:13:07 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 19:13:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <74A40865-4A4E-4BA5-9542-6B9724E97ABE@shiresoft.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <03D802BA-8171-4E70-813B-DBA61EE74511@comcast.net> <93F67AFC-97CE-4735-8B9B-6661A0C74A2B@comcast.net> <201601072352.SAA24298@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <74A40865-4A4E-4BA5-9542-6B9724E97ABE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <201601080013.TAA22923@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I don't trust the vendor's internal security to keep the key from >> leaking and I don't trust the vendor's HR security to prevent >> malware authors from making it to the inside, and I *sure* don't >> trust the vendor to resist a request from law enforcement [...] > I don???t know if it???s typical or not, but every company that > I???ve worked for that has managed crypto-keys has taken key security > *very* seriously. I find that easy to believe. However: (1) "[E]very company [you]'ve worked for" is almost certainly a heavily biased sample; if you have a tenth the clue you appear to, you would stay away from the dodgier ones. (2) Taking key security seriously is a very different thing from being good at key security. (They probably correlate positively, but not nearly as strongly as one might wish.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jan 7 18:21:04 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 16:21:04 -0800 Subject: Floppy recovery In-Reply-To: <201601080013.TAA22923@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <03D802BA-8171-4E70-813B-DBA61EE74511@comcast.net> <93F67AFC-97CE-4735-8B9B-6661A0C74A2B@comcast.net> <201601072352.SAA24298@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <74A40865-4A4E-4BA5-9542-6B9724E97ABE@shiresoft.com> <201601080013.TAA22923@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <6F85058C-936B-44EB-AB16-707C9210792C@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 7, 2016, at 4:13 PM, Mouse wrote: > >>> I don't trust the vendor's internal security to keep the key from >>> leaking and I don't trust the vendor's HR security to prevent >>> malware authors from making it to the inside, and I *sure* don't >>> trust the vendor to resist a request from law enforcement [...] >> I don???t know if it???s typical or not, but every company that >> I???ve worked for that has managed crypto-keys has taken key security >> *very* seriously. > > I find that easy to believe. However: > > (1) "[E]very company [you]'ve worked for" is almost certainly a heavily > biased sample; if you have a tenth the clue you appear to, you > would stay away from the dodgier ones. Probably. ;-) > > (2) Taking key security seriously is a very different thing from being > good at key security. (They probably correlate positively, but not > nearly as strongly as one might wish.) > Agree. In the cases I?m aware of they do both. ;-) TTFN - Guy From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 19:06:01 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 19:06:01 -0600 Subject: Secure disk destruction [was Re: Floppy recovery] In-Reply-To: <1452208156.1783.67.camel@agj.net> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> <201601072008.PAA04318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1452208156.1783.67.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: What's wrong with the "disassemble and rend with heavy hammer" approach? Doesn't that render the platters un-readable, if done with sufficient ardor? On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 5:09 PM, Stefan Skoglund (lokal < stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote: > tor 2016-01-07 klockan 15:08 -0500 skrev Mouse: > > > Well, if you don't have access to thermite [...] > > > > Actually, red heat is well above the Curie temperature for most media, > > isn't it? You could chuck the platters into the coals of a bonfire, > > let them get up to a nice cherry red. Depending on what the platters > > are made of, this might even melt them, which should effectively > > destroy any organization in the material that once formed a thin film > > on them. If not, it should demagnetize the coating.... > > Unhealthy. > > I would expect that to generate a fair amount of sulphuric and > hydrochloric acid. > A fair bit of the shit inside the HD also would end up in the nearby > soil. > > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 19:33:13 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 21:33:13 -0400 Subject: Secure disk destruction [was Re: Floppy recovery] In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> <201601072008.PAA04318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1452208156.1783.67.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <568F11D9.2090702@gmail.com> On 2016-01-07 9:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > What's wrong with the "disassemble and rend with heavy hammer" approach? > Doesn't that render the platters un-readable, if done with sufficient > ardor? > > Or spin the disk and scrape off the oxide, I have seen disk drive do that all by themselves, but as I said earlier modern disks mostly use glass platters so you do not even have to disassemble them to smash the platters. Paul. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 7 20:20:43 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 18:20:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Secure disk destruction [was Re: Floppy recovery] In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> <201601072008.PAA04318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1452208156.1783.67.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 2016, drlegendre . wrote: > What's wrong with the "disassemble and rend with heavy hammer" approach? > Doesn't that render the platters un-readable, if done with sufficient > ardor? Bending the platters will keep them from turning and being usable in the drive, but does NOT prevent various other imaging methods. Breaking a platter in half doesn't prevent those techniques. Shattering a glass platter into dozens of pieces doesn't prevent those techniques. breaking it into tiny bits may or may not depending on how much effort somebody is willing to put into identifying where each piece came from in the platter. High heat should work. Sanding all of the rust off of the platter should work. Mailing the drive to a government office, with a note saying, "please help me recover the pictures of my grandmother's birthday party", and having it lost in their mailroom might work. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 20:26:30 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 18:26:30 -0800 Subject: Secure disk destruction [was Re: Floppy recovery] In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> <201601072008.PAA04318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1452208156.1783.67.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 7 Jan 2016, drlegendre . wrote: > >> What's wrong with the "disassemble and rend with heavy hammer" approach? >> Doesn't that render the platters un-readable, if done with sufficient >> ardor? >> > > Bending the platters will keep them from turning and being usable in the > drive, but does NOT prevent various other imaging methods. > > Breaking a platter in half doesn't prevent those techniques. > > Shattering a glass platter into dozens of pieces doesn't prevent those > techniques. > > breaking it into tiny bits may or may not depending on how much effort > somebody is willing to put into identifying where each piece came from in > the platter. > > High heat should work. > > Sanding all of the rust off of the platter should work. > > Mailing the drive to a government office, with a note saying, "please help > me recover the pictures of my grandmother's birthday party", and having it > lost in their mailroom might work. > > > Putting it a crate with a few hundred other drives... -- Charles From jws at jwsss.com Thu Jan 7 22:17:04 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 20:17:04 -0800 Subject: Secure disk destruction [was Re: Floppy recovery] In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> <201601072008.PAA04318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1452208156.1783.67.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <568F3840.3060106@jwsss.com> On 1/7/2016 6:20 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 7 Jan 2016, drlegendre . wrote: >> What's wrong with the "disassemble and rend with heavy hammer" approach? >> Doesn't that render the platters un-readable, if done with sufficient >> ardor? > > Bending the platters will keep them from turning and being usable in > the drive, but does NOT prevent various other imaging methods. > > Breaking a platter in half doesn't prevent those techniques. There are machines sold to machine document destruction folks that will shred the entire drive into pieces the size of large grains of sand. They are deployable on trucks with on site document destruction services, and I know of two friends here in Orange Country who have bought them. They are also useful if you are also doing your own high-grade gold refining pass, for preparation of material. The two recycling operators I know are probably doing this process as well. Most gold recover folks are not trusted. thanks jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 7 23:51:07 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 21:51:07 -0800 Subject: Secure disk destruction [was Re: Floppy recovery] In-Reply-To: <568F3840.3060106@jwsss.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> <201601072008.PAA04318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1452208156.1783.67.camel@agj.net> <568F3840.3060106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <568F4E4B.2060500@sydex.com> On 01/07/2016 08:17 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > They are also useful if you are also doing your own high-grade gold > refining pass, for preparation of material. The two recycling > operators I know are probably doing this process as well. Most gold > recover folks are not trusted. There are several Youtube clips of these things in operation, including one that's being fed vintage Macs. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 20:47:14 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 20:47:14 -0600 Subject: Open VMS System Mgt Guide Scripts Avail. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 2:31 PM, william degnan wrote: > I've uploaded the contents of the disk that accompanis the book "OpenVMS > System Management Guide" by Lawrence Baldwin here: > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/OpenVMS/ There are a lot of files there. Can you post them zipped up as well? j From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jan 8 04:09:12 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 10:09:12 +0000 Subject: Front panels Video clip Message-ID: <568F8AC8.8070405@btinternet.com> Hi Guys I have a short video of part run boards awaiting their turn for the next layer. (probably a bit boring). One of the girls is in the picture (not boring) If you want I can attach it to an email. Its a .mov file. Email me off list for a copy. Rod From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jan 8 04:15:17 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 10:15:17 +0000 Subject: Correction - Front Panel Update Message-ID: <568F8C35.5020804@btinternet.com> Ooops! For boards read panels Rod From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jan 8 05:02:11 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 03:02:11 -0800 Subject: Front panels Video clip In-Reply-To: <568F8AC8.8070405@btinternet.com> References: <568F8AC8.8070405@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <568F9733.8040005@jwsss.com> On 1/8/2016 2:09 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi Guys > > I have a short video of part run boards awaiting > their turn for the next layer. (probably a bit boring). > One of the girls is in the picture (not boring) > If you want I can attach it to an email. Its a .mov file. > Email me off list for a copy. > > Rod > > can you upload it to youtube, set it viewable if you have the URL, and share that URL? I routinely archive all my videos there, and download them from youtube to get a clean mp4 version of the file, easier than messing with tools on a system to convert mov, mkv, or whatever. Also lets you share them w/o stressing the email channel thanks JIm From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jan 8 05:10:01 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 11:10:01 +0000 Subject: Front panels Video clip In-Reply-To: <568F9733.8040005@jwsss.com> References: <568F8AC8.8070405@btinternet.com> <568F9733.8040005@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <568F9909.40202@btinternet.com> Hi Jim Although I watch Youtube a lot I have never tried to set anything up. I do have a webserver I'm working on. I'll get a static IP or one of those follow me IP's Rod On 08/01/16 11:02, Jim Stephens wrote: > > > On 1/8/2016 2:09 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Hi Guys >> >> I have a short video of part run boards awaiting >> their turn for the next layer. (probably a bit boring). >> One of the girls is in the picture (not boring) >> If you want I can attach it to an email. Its a .mov file. >> Email me off list for a copy. >> >> Rod >> >> > can you upload it to youtube, set it viewable if you have the URL, and > share that URL? > > I routinely archive all my videos there, and download them from > youtube to get a clean mp4 version of the file, easier than messing > with tools on a system to convert mov, mkv, or whatever. Also lets you > share them w/o stressing the email channel > > thanks > JIm > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 07:52:05 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 08:52:05 -0500 Subject: Secure disk destruction [was Re: Floppy recovery] In-Reply-To: <568F3840.3060106@jwsss.com> References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> <201601072008.PAA04318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1452208156.1783.67.camel@agj.net> <568F3840.3060106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > They are also useful if you are also doing your own high-grade gold refining > pass, for preparation of material. The two recycling operators I know are > probably doing this process as well. There are some groups now using hammer mills and shaker tables in order to try and cut down the amount of nasty chemicals involved. The hammer mills can pulverize the electronics down to something like very fine sand. -- Will From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jan 8 07:55:26 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 13:55:26 +0000 Subject: A long note about the panel pictures. Message-ID: <568FBFCE.5020808@btinternet.com> Hi Guys! The big picture shows a fame with three masters on it. Oh yes you might say they put the panel in and print in three passes. Er no. having three different colour inks sloshing around in a frame at the same time might cause a few problems. From bottom up we have Terracotta, then amber and finally white. First they line up the blank panel with the Terracotta master and screen all the blanks with that colour. They go into a special rack to dry. Now they have to get rid if every trace of Terracotta ink without messing the master up. They like to leave 12 - 24 hours between passes. (Overnight if they can) . They repeat the process for Amber . Finally we come to the White layer. Try putting a 1mm white line between two different colours , always keeping the two colours on the correct sides of the line with no gaps. OK thats what they did with the first batch. Generally they were very well received and looked good. I asked for feed back and one list member said the real ones appear to be matt black on the front. I got an old panel shipped over because I thought it was just age and dirt. Well it wasn't matt black nor was it dirty. They had put a translucent layer on the front that helped to deffuse the light from the lamps and had this strange optical effect of making the front look matt black. Going back to my DEC days I think the the general view was they were matt black on both front and back to stop unwanted reflections due to the point light sources from filament lamps. So I asked if we could get some suitable ink. and try it out. Well the answer came back that whilst it was fine for deffusing the light over the holes on the back , they were not happy with the results on the front. A thin layer of real matt black on the front was much nearer the sample they said. So I added a thin matt black layer on the front for the current batch. You can't tell the difference. I think I know what may have happend. If you put a layer of matt black on the front you need an extra screen with holes that line up with those on the back. A translucent layer just goes right across. I believe it was intended to be black on both back and front but somebody did a bit of cost engineering. Well two can play that game and I have come up with an answer. From my normal supplier I have been able to source our standard 3mm perspex but with one side having a silk finish. It minics the effect of the old plastic with the diffusing ink perfectly! The front looks matt black. It also makes the ink adhere better Saves putting a front matt black layer on future batches and you cant tell. Rod From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 8 09:23:25 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 07:23:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Secure disk destruction [was Re: Floppy recovery] In-Reply-To: References: <568C2733.3060205@jwsss.com> <20160105132447.14b3deb5@asrock.bcwi.net> <568EAABC.8040206@sydex.com> <5182779DE4AD4045AEE4B4F04656ED76@310e2> <201601072008.PAA04318@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1452208156.1783.67.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: > Putting it a crate with a few hundred other drives... Label the one next to yours: CONFIDENTIAL : TOP SECRET or label the one next to yours: TAX RECEIPTS, and label your drive: REAL TAX RECEIPTS If you were to label your enemy's drive ISIS, CHILD PORN would that consume enough resources that they don't bother with yours? From isking at uw.edu Fri Jan 8 12:33:25 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 10:33:25 -0800 Subject: s100 In-Reply-To: <1421C2CD-73DA-46D9-AF51-99932AFAC73F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <568EB8D9.4090502@radio-astronomie.com> <1421C2CD-73DA-46D9-AF51-99932AFAC73F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Jan-07, at 11:13 AM, nierveze wrote: > > first am 1 on the correct channel?? > > I have several S100 boards , found 25 years ago, > > ... > > > I wonder how it is possible to address more than 64K (rams+eprom)with a > Z80 . > > S100 memory boards often incorporated a bank-switching scheme to allow for > multiple 64K banks in the system. > The convention was a dedicated I/O port number (0x40?) to which one writes > a bit pattern to select the desired bank. > Such memory boards have configuration switches to set their bank ID/number. > For a system to use this scheme, all the memory boards in the system are > to be listening on that same port, waiting to recognise their ID. > > I designed and built such a board way, way back when I was an undergraduate. (The fact that it was for an S-100 system is sufficient suggestion of just how long ago....) Someone was doing medical image processing, IIRC. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 15:40:52 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 13:40:52 -0800 Subject: Honeywell Series 60 (Level 66)/6000 aka DATANET 355/6600 machine language Message-ID: I am trying to fire up a DN6600 emulator and am encountering some discrepancies between the DD01 documentation and existing software. Anyone remember how to program this beast? -- Charles From pdaguytom at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 15:48:52 2016 From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom .) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:48:52 -0600 Subject: HP 9826/36 keyboard Message-ID: Just acquired an HP 9826/36, that needs a couple of keyboard switches and keycaps, specifically the EXECUTE switch and the ")" switch. Does anyone have these or a spare keyboard they'd care to sell? I can live with the ) key missing as the switch is sheared at the + only and otherwise operates fine. The EXECUTE switch took a hard hit and sticks at the bottom of its travel. Thanks, Tom . From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 17:19:28 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 23:19:28 -0000 Subject: Honeywell Series 60 (Level 66)/6000 aka DATANET 355/6600 machine language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014601d14a6b$05fc4530$11f4cf90$@gmail.com> Never got to actually program the Datanet. Just feed the config in and it assembled itself.... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles > Anthony > Sent: 08 January 2016 21:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Honeywell Series 60 (Level 66)/6000 aka DATANET 355/6600 machine > language > > I am trying to fire up a DN6600 emulator and am encountering some > discrepancies between the DD01 documentation and existing software. > > Anyone remember how to program this beast? > > -- Charles From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Jan 8 15:39:45 2016 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Abraham) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 13:39:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: For Sale: MITS Modem board set Message-ID: I have for sale one MITS S-100 modem board set (88 SIOB + MODEM BD). It's in excellent condition physically, unknown functional condition but probably works fine (it's been stored in an anti-static bag). Photos here: http://vintagetech.com/sales/S-100/MITS%20Modem/ Asking $250 or best offer. Thanks! -- Sellam Abraham VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. * * * NOTICE * * * Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 8 22:25:39 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 22:25:39 -0600 Subject: Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question In-Reply-To: References: <566C4C15.1060104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <56908BC3.4030100@jbrain.com> On 12/12/2015 10:52 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Jim Brain wrote: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-KAYPRO-4-COMPUTER-MOTHERBOARD-/331730690952? >> >> The non soldermask boad on top of the main unit intrigues me. Does anyone >> know what it is? >> >> Jim > The board says Centram Systems, Inc, Camp Hill, Pa. > > There is a marketing blurb in the August 15, 1983 issue of > Computerworld. Don't know if it is for that exact board. > > Long ugly link: > https://books.google.com/books?id=soGti0kvtgwC&pg=RA1-PA71&lpg=RA1-PA71&dq=centram-systems+inc+kaypro&source=bl&ots=6Vnr0qZn3W&sig=otazIdpkt4Y5Oyrp9jjKKrv_dq4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHtaP34tbJAhUL9mMKHWnaDYQQ6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=centram-systems%20inc%20kaypro Sorry for the delayed update, but after a few relistings, I was able to secure the PCB for a reasonable price. It is indeed the board listed on the link, and here is another link: https://books.google.com/books?id=7xNVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA267&lpg=PA267&dq=the+web+nt+centram+systems+inc+kaypro&source=bl&ots=xy6yxBjbgc&sig=ByqG8cnOV0sZbxZDf3rKwxA30rg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirpYH76pvKAhWDNiYKHeDfA2oQ6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=the%20web%20nt%20centram%20systems%20inc%20kaypro&f=false The product is called "KayNet", a baseband twisted pair CSMA/CD local network operating at 125kbps. It uses a network called Web, designed by Centram Systems, Inc. of Camp Hill, PA. The network software , OPSnet, was written by Aquinas, INc., and is compatible with CP/M 2.2 I secured the board, but it needs to be reverse engineered and I lack the time at present. Anyone want to take on the effort? I also need to track down OPSnet OS, and I think there is a bit more to this board (the documentation I found mentions a switch and an RJ-11 connector. I see what looks like the LED wires on the PCB, and there are 3 more pins on the PCB that could be the RJ11 pins. There is a wire that is soldered to U65:pin4 on the motherboard, which I assume is the switch but maybe hooked to this gate as a way to make the switch a softswitch. Here is some documentation: https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_kayproKayn_4822341/Kaynet_Users_Guide_1983_djvu.txt Here is the KayNET documentation: https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_kayproKayn_4822341 http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/kaypro/hardware/kaypro%20kaynet%20users%20guide.pdf (Thanks Jason Scott!) Anyone interested in bringing this network back to life? I am happy to design and manufacture replacement PCBs at cost for this... More on KayNET: https://books.google.com/books?id=ui8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=kaynet+kaypro&source=bl&ots=0BU3jTdrH3&sig=LsCiZJVRumQ7QgRa1-QpuzpefQ8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOjZLr75vKAhXL8CYKHVxUAdwQ6AEIKjAC#v=onepage&q=kaynet%20kaypro&f=false http://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gopher.floodgap.com/0/archive/walnut-creek-cd-simtel/KAYPRO/KPRO-LAN.INF This looks very interesting, but I think I need help to move forward. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Jan 9 10:43:58 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 11:43:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: C=64 stuff FTGH in Ottawa Message-ID: <201601091643.LAA27018@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> I thought I'd got rid of all my 8-bitters, but apparently not - I just found a C=64 (the 8-bitter, not the recently-mentioned Linux machine in a C=64 case) in storage. The box proves to hold a C=64 proper, a 1541 floppy drive, a C=64-branded power brick (117V 60Hz), and a cable apparently intended for CPU-to-floppy connection (at least, the connectors on the ends fit the 1541 and one of the connectors on the machine). It also held another floppy drive, but I suspect that may actually be completely unrelated to the C=64; it's the same form-factor of floppy, but the connector on the end of the cable is a Berg-style two-rows-of-pins connector, not any of the connectors in obvious evidence on the C=64 itself. This is all FTGH. Currently in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada; it might be possible to convince me to ship, but local pickup would really be much preferred - I have very little experience packing such stuff for shipping, selecting carriers, and the like. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jan 10 09:05:14 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 15:05:14 +0000 Subject: Front Panel Update - Video on YouTube Message-ID: <5692732A.50605@btinternet.com> Hi Guys I think I now have the very short clip of front panel production at the silk screeners on YouTube Try https://youtu.be/8qi4cveAc3A (go to YouTube first) Rod From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Jan 10 09:35:19 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 16:35:19 +0100 Subject: USO (Unidentified System Unit) Message-ID: Hi list, I was checking one of my rack and saw a rack-mount system unit without any labeling. It consists of a 2-row wire-wrap backplane and a power supply. Looking at the rear side I can read which modules are installed in the backplane. In the upper row are the following modules: M1131 M1131 M306 M112 M111 M205 M205 M3020 8 x upper part of the dual-width M5950 In the lower row are the following modules: M611 M611 M3020 M3020 M113 M205 M205 M205 8 x lower part of the M5950 There are a few slots empty, but those are neither wrapped. I could not find the M5950 nor M3020 in any module list. I did not pull the modules, so I don't know what those modules are. 8 X M5950 suggests something to do with "data path" ... Anybody recognizes this system unit? Thanks, - Henk From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jan 10 09:24:35 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 10:24:35 -0500 Subject: Honeywell Series 60 (Level 66)/6000 aka DATANET 355/6600 machine language (Charles Anthony) Message-ID: > > Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 13:40:52 -0800 > From: Charles Anthony > Subject: Honeywell Series 60 (Level 66)/6000 aka DATANET 355/6600 > machine language > > I am trying to fire up a DN6600 emulator and am encountering some > discrepancies between the DD01 documentation and existing software. > > Anyone remember how to program this beast? > > -- Charles > I wish that I kept all of the Honeywell docs that I had. I gave most of what I had to the Boston Computer Museum, so it might be a the CHM. I maintained GECOS and the front end software on a Level 66, with DN355, and 716 front ends. The software modifications to the DN355 were done under contract by Honeywell in Bedford, MA. The 355 and 716s were replaced by a pair Level 6 front ends. I still have the platter from one of the fixed head disks from the 716. If I remember correctly, the 16-bit Level 6 front ends ran modified microcode to make it 18-bits by using the parity bits. -- Michael Thompson From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 10 11:31:06 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 12:31:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: USO (Unidentified System Unit) Message-ID: <20160110173106.AAA2B18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Henk Gooijen > I could not find the M5950 nor M3020 in any module list. The M3020 (and M1131) are variants of the M302 (and M113, respectively), so I don't think those are much of a clue. The M5950 I couldn't find anything about at all, but the M595 is a current mode converter for the DF11 - which I can't find much about, although it's in the '73-'74 Peripheral Handbook - but that looks distinctly like a possibility, from the pictures there. Noel From j_hoppe at t-online.de Sun Jan 10 10:16:17 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:16:17 +0100 Subject: PDP-12 restauration in center Germany Message-ID: <569283D1.7050804@t-online.de> Hi, in case somebody needs companions for cross-tests or likes to exchange thoughts: A few month ago we bought a PDP-12 and are restoring she since then. There is no online-diary about progress (the maching is eating up all time), but see here: http://c-c-g.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=311:pdp12-gekauft&catid=100&Itemid=50 The 12 is complete with no visible damages and has some undocumented add-ons (they always have). Especially a MOS memory extension was plugged off very soon. Luckily we could organize an 95% complete 2nd module set. After console exchange (we had indeed a 2nd one!) and much trouble with cpu logic, we can now execute opcodes with DO and FILL/EXAM the core memory. Contact me if you like to visit us, we're sitting near G?ttingen (between Kassel and Hannover). Joerg From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jan 10 12:26:31 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 13:26:31 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 restauration in center Germany (J?rg Hoppe) Message-ID: > > Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:16:17 +0100 > From: J?rg Hoppe > Subject: PDP-12 restauration in center Germany > > Hi, > > in case somebody needs companions for cross-tests or likes to exchange > thoughts: > > A few month ago we bought a PDP-12 and are restoring she since then. > > There is no online-diary about progress (the maching is eating up all > time), but see here: > > http://c-c-g.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=311:pdp12-gekauft&catid=100&Itemid=50 > > The 12 is complete with no visible damages and has some undocumented > add-ons (they always have). > Especially a MOS memory extension was plugged off very soon. > > Luckily we could organize an 95% complete 2nd module set. > > After console exchange (we had indeed a 2nd one!) and much trouble with > cpu logic, > we can now execute opcodes with DO and FILL/EXAM the core memory. > > Contact me if you like to visit us, we're sitting near G?ttingen > (between Kassel and Hannover). > > Joerg > Joerg, Take a look at a picture of our PDP-12. It has a PDP-8/I next to it as in your picture. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12/dec-pdp-12-restoration/PDP-12_and_PDP-8I.jpg?attredirects=0 We also have MAI and Wang systems. -- Michael Thompson From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jan 10 12:52:42 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 18:52:42 -0000 Subject: Honeywell Series 60 (Level 66)/6000 aka DATANET 355/6600 machine language (Charles Anthony) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015701d14bd8$16a423d0$43ec6b70$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael > Thompson > Sent: 10 January 2016 15:25 > To: cctech > Subject: Re: Honeywell Series 60 (Level 66)/6000 aka DATANET 355/6600 > machine language (Charles Anthony) > > > > > Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 13:40:52 -0800 > > From: Charles Anthony > > Subject: Honeywell Series 60 (Level 66)/6000 aka DATANET 355/6600 > > machine language > > > > I am trying to fire up a DN6600 emulator and am encountering some > > discrepancies between the DD01 documentation and existing software. > > > > Anyone remember how to program this beast? > > > > -- Charles > > > > I wish that I kept all of the Honeywell docs that I had. I gave most of what I > had to the Boston Computer Museum, so it might be a the CHM. > > I maintained GECOS and the front end software on a Level 66, with DN355, > and 716 front ends. The software modifications to the DN355 were done > under contract by Honeywell in Bedford, MA. The 355 and 716s were > replaced by a pair Level 6 front ends. I still have the platter from one of the > fixed head disks from the 716. If I remember correctly, the 16-bit Level 6 > front ends ran modified microcode to make it 18-bits by using the parity bits. I don't think so. From what I remember, and it?s a long time ago, our DPS/6 front end ran completely different software. The DN355 ran GERTS or GRTS and the DPS/6 ran DNS... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=w3IudMVoEusC&pg=PA1&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false > -- > Michael Thompson I do remember we had some LSI/11 based RNP(707 perhaps) "look alikes" which would drop their connection. When this happened you go the dreaded "unable to contact GRTS" message.... ... some wag added a line to our "message of the day file" which read "who are the GRTS and why are we trying to contact them"... Dave G4UGM From j_hoppe at t-online.de Sun Jan 10 13:29:56 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 20:29:56 +0100 Subject: PDP-12 restauration in center Germany (J?rg Hoppe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5692B134.9060605@t-online.de> Am 10.01.2016 um 19:26 schrieb Michael Thompson: >> >> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:16:17 +0100 >> From: J?rg Hoppe >> Subject: PDP-12 restauration in center Germany >> >> Hi, >> >> in case somebody needs companions for cross-tests or likes to exchange >> thoughts: >> >> A few month ago we bought a PDP-12 and are restoring she since then. >> >> There is no online-diary about progress (the maching is eating up all >> time), but see here: >> >> http://c-c-g.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=311:pdp12-gekauft&catid=100&Itemid=50 >> >> The 12 is complete with no visible damages and has some undocumented >> add-ons (they always have). >> Especially a MOS memory extension was plugged off very soon. >> >> Luckily we could organize an 95% complete 2nd module set. >> >> After console exchange (we had indeed a 2nd one!) and much trouble with >> cpu logic, >> we can now execute opcodes with DO and FILL/EXAM the core memory. >> >> Contact me if you like to visit us, we're sitting near G?ttingen >> (between Kassel and Hannover). >> >> Joerg >> > > Joerg, > > Take a look at a picture of our PDP-12. It has a PDP-8/I next to it as in > your picture. > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12/dec-pdp-12-restoration/PDP-12_and_PDP-8I.jpg?attredirects=0 > > We also have MAI and Wang systems. > Look much better than our stuff! Joerg From cramcram at gmail.com Sun Jan 10 16:46:29 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:46:29 -0800 Subject: PDP-12 restauration in center Germany (J?rg Hoppe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm lime green with envy. I'd love to get a PDP-12 like that. Marc On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:16:17 +0100 > > From: J?rg Hoppe > > Subject: PDP-12 restauration in center Germany > > > > Hi, > > > > in case somebody needs companions for cross-tests or likes to exchange > > thoughts: > > > > A few month ago we bought a PDP-12 and are restoring she since then. > > > > There is no online-diary about progress (the maching is eating up all > > time), but see here: > > > > > http://c-c-g.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=311:pdp12-gekauft&catid=100&Itemid=50 > > > > The 12 is complete with no visible damages and has some undocumented > > add-ons (they always have). > > Especially a MOS memory extension was plugged off very soon. > > > > Luckily we could organize an 95% complete 2nd module set. > > > > After console exchange (we had indeed a 2nd one!) and much trouble with > > cpu logic, > > we can now execute opcodes with DO and FILL/EXAM the core memory. > > > > Contact me if you like to visit us, we're sitting near G?ttingen > > (between Kassel and Hannover). > > > > Joerg > > > > Joerg, > > Take a look at a picture of our PDP-12. It has a PDP-8/I next to it as in > your picture. > > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12/dec-pdp-12-restoration/PDP-12_and_PDP-8I.jpg?attredirects=0 > > We also have MAI and Wang systems. > > -- > Michael Thompson > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jan 10 17:06:42 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 18:06:42 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 restauration in center Germany (J?rg Hoppe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > > > > > Joerg, > > > > Take a look at a picture of our PDP-12. It has a PDP-8/I next to it as in > > your picture. > > > > > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12/dec-pdp-12-restoration/PDP-12_and_PDP-8I.jpg?attredirects=0 > > > > We also have MAI and Wang systems. > > > > -- > > Michael Thompson > > > I love that green component cover on the left. What a fantastic style DEC put into their systems. -- -Bill- From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Jan 10 17:17:45 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:17:45 -0600 Subject: Honeywell Series 60 (Level 66)/6000 aka DATANET 355/6600 machine language (Charles Anthony) In-Reply-To: <015701d14bd8$16a423d0$43ec6b70$@gmail.com> References: <015701d14bd8$16a423d0$43ec6b70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160110231745.GA29007@lonesome.com> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 06:52:42PM -0000, Dave Wade wrote: > I do remember we had some LSI/11 based RNP(707 perhaps) "look alikes" > which would drop their connection. When this happened you go the > dreaded "unable to contact GRTS" message.... The equivalent on an earlier series (some variant of 600) was "no response from 600". Usually you had already been able to figure this out due to the 60 seconds of no output immediately preceding. mcl From cube1 at charter.net Mon Jan 11 11:25:52 2016 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 11:25:52 -0600 Subject: USO (Unidentified System Unit) In-Reply-To: <20160110173106.AAA2B18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160110173106.AAA2B18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5693E5A0.3040702@charter.net> If it is DEC, and they haven't fallen off, then on the side panels on one side or the other of the rows connectors there may be some identification? JRJ On 1/10/2016 11:31 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Henk Gooijen > > > I could not find the M5950 nor M3020 in any module list. > > The M3020 (and M1131) are variants of the M302 (and M113, respectively), so I > don't think those are much of a clue. The M5950 I couldn't find anything > about at all, but the M595 is a current mode converter for the DF11 - which I > can't find much about, although it's in the '73-'74 Peripheral Handbook - > but that looks distinctly like a possibility, from the pictures there. > > Noel > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Jan 11 11:33:47 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 18:33:47 +0100 Subject: USO (Unidentified System Unit) In-Reply-To: <5693E5A0.3040702@charter.net> References: <20160110173106.AAA2B18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5693E5A0.3040702@charter.net> Message-ID: I am pretty sure it is DEC made. Another manufacturer would surely have sticked labeling from themselves on it ;-) Viewed from the rear side (looking at the module handles), the right side panel has no id labeling. The left side panel might have one, but that side is completely covered by a H??? power supply (forgot to write down the H number). I will check next Saturday. Thanks, - Henk -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Jay Jaeger Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 6:25 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: USO (Unidentified System Unit) If it is DEC, and they haven't fallen off, then on the side panels on one side or the other of the rows connectors there may be some identification? JRJ On 1/10/2016 11:31 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Henk Gooijen > > > I could not find the M5950 nor M3020 in any module list. > > The M3020 (and M1131) are variants of the M302 (and M113, respectively), > so I > don't think those are much of a clue. The M5950 I couldn't find anything > about at all, but the M595 is a current mode converter for the DF11 - > which I > can't find much about, although it's in the '73-'74 Peripheral Handbook - > but that looks distinctly like a possibility, from the pictures there. > > Noel > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Jan 11 11:46:30 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 17:46:30 +0000 Subject: USO (Unidentified System Unit) In-Reply-To: References: <20160110173106.AAA2B18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5693E5A0.3040702@charter.net> Message-ID: <5693EA76.9070408@btinternet.com> On 11/01/2016 17:33, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I am pretty sure it is DEC made. Another manufacturer would surely > have sticked labeling from themselves on it ;-) Viewed from the rear > side (looking at the module handles), the right side panel has no id > labeling. The left side panel might have one, but that side is > completely covered by a H??? power supply (forgot to write down the H > number). I will check next Saturday. > > Thanks, - Henk > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Jay Jaeger Sent: Monday, > January 11, 2016 6:25 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: USO > (Unidentified System Unit) > > If it is DEC, and they haven't fallen off, then on the side panels > on one side or the other of the rows connectors there may be some > identification? > > JRJ > > On 1/10/2016 11:31 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> From: Henk Gooijen >> >>> I could not find the M5950 nor M3020 in any module list. >> >> The M3020 (and M1131) are variants of the M302 (and M113, >> respectively), so I don't think those are much of a clue. The M5950 >> I couldn't find anything about at all, but the M595 is a current >> mode converter for the DF11 - which I can't find much about, >> although it's in the '73-'74 Peripheral Handbook - but that looks >> distinctly like a possibility, from the pictures there. >> >> Noel >> DEC had a product line called Components Group. You could buy almost any DEC part and build what ever you wanted with it. There was also CSS or Computer Special Systems. They did bespoke systems and of course used standard parts where they could. Rod From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jan 11 11:58:39 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 12:58:39 -0500 Subject: RT-11 Symbolic Debugger SD: Message-ID: <5693ED4F.9060803@compsys.to> I am not expecting a whole crowd to respond, but even one individual would be helpful. I also realize that very few individuals even know about the RT-11 Symbolic Debugger, SD:, which is a pseudo device driver what is usually activated by a BPT instruction within a user's program - as opposed to having to LINK in the ODT code. If any reading this uses either V01.00 or especially Y01.16 of the Symbolic Debugger from V05.06 of RT-11, and in particular the SDHX.SYS variant, I would appreciate some feedback on some bug fixes and enhancements that have been made. Some include: (a) Saving Program Counter Addresses (b) Support to activate other selected jobs such as KED (ONLY jobs that do NOT enter SD:) while the user's job is stopped at a breakpoint (c) Single Step Mode to include checking on the Number of Stack Additions and Subtractions - in progress (d) Reduced Low Memory (e) Interactive SET commands for the "Symbol;V" commands (f) SET commands for Saving Program Counter Addresses (g) Help text for the enhancements (h) Any other enhancements that you can think of that can be implemented from a technical point of view - feedback will be very MUCH appreciated All of the changes required more than three times the original 8192 bytes of extended memory required by Y01.16 of the SDHX.SYS variant. Jerome Fine From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Jan 11 18:40:22 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 13:40:22 +1300 Subject: Colour composite video for the BBC micro Message-ID: Sometimes capability is already built in but not widely known or publicized. Sometimes all it needs is a jumper! http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-01-12-composite-video-for-bbc.htm Terry (Tez) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Jan 12 02:17:45 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 08:17:45 +0000 Subject: Colour composite video for the BBC micro In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/01/2016 00:40, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > Sometimes capability is already built in but not widely known or > publicized. Sometimes all it needs is a jumper! > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-01-12-composite-video-for-bbc.ht> m Well I didn't know that! I've been Beeb-ing since they came out and they were always TV or Microvitec CUB monitored and because we had the latter we never needed to look for another solution. Probably the other main reason for not looking is lack of a monitor with a BNC input at school/college though now I have a few BNC-RCA adapters. Another one to add to the 'handy to know' list :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Jan 12 05:37:27 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 11:37:27 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Update Message-ID: <5694E577.60508@btinternet.com> Hi Guys I just had an email with some pictures of the panels in. The panels are great but the pictures not. Because you need lots of light to see what you are doing. They have several skylights and the light is all wrong for phone cameras They are adding the final details : A and B customisation and the second white line round the lock area. The front is now matt black. I'm changing to professional packaging as green tape and cardboard works but is not that pretty. So we expect to start shipping when the new packaging arrives. PDP-8/f and /m are waiting to be screen printed next. PDP-11/XX are being drawn now and I'm going to try and have at least a few boards ready with the common features before taking orders. Rod From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 12 07:01:20 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 08:01:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC PDP-11 software manuals available Message-ID: <20160112130120.C458F18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I have a bunch of DEC PDP-11 software manuals which I don't want (which I got in a lot with some other manuals I did want). They are free to a good home (US media mail free, anything else we'll have to work out). They are: RT-11 Documentation Directory (AA-5285D-TC, March '79) RT-11 System Release Notes (AA-5286B-TC, March '78) RT-11 System Generation Manual (AA-5283B-TC, March '78) Introduction to RT-11 (DEC-11-ORITA-A-D, August '77) RMS-11 Installation Guide (AA-H235A-TC, June '79) RMS-11 User's Guide (AA-D538A-TC, March '79) RMS-11 MACRO-11 Reference Manual (AA-H683A-TC, March '79) Also, before I send them off, should I scan any/all of them (I'm too lazy to look to see if they already available online :-)? Noel From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jan 12 08:25:07 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 15:25:07 +0100 Subject: TDL 8K Z80 Basic.. Message-ID: <20160112142507.GA98837@beast.freibergnet.de> Currently I'm fiddeling around with the old 8 Kbyte Z80 Basic Interpreter from TDL, found an Paper Tape Image here: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/p/tdlsoft.zip on Dave Dunfields pages. I've used the 12K Version from TDL many years before on my home computer and now we have a project on robotrontechnik.de with an SBC and I've ported the P112 Tiny Basic already to this SBC, now I want to try the 8K TDL Version. ... Has someone still a computer with that 8K TDL Basic in use? In the moment I'm writing a loader that can "autopatch" the relocation Bytes in the TDL HEX file format from the Paper Tapes. Someone used that before? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 12 12:28:27 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 13:28:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC PDP-11 software manuals available Message-ID: <20160112182827.7272C18C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I have a bunch of DEC PDP-11 software manuals which I don't want .. > They are free to a good home They have been claimed. Noel From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 12 14:10:42 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 12:10:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: For you SGI fans... Message-ID: https://archive.org/details/cdromsoftware?&sort=-publicdate&and[]=SGI g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From isking at uw.edu Tue Jan 12 14:16:50 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 12:16:50 -0800 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 12:10 PM, geneb wrote: > > > https://archive.org/details/cdromsoftware?&sort=-publicdate&and[]=SGI > O. M. G. Thanks! -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 14:19:12 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 12:19:12 -0800 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a great start, but I wouldn't install this version. Try to install the 6.5.22 overlay or greater. It does indeed require some disks from this media set, but is more compatible with newer open source software built for the platform. Installing 6.5.0 seems like a waste of time... On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 12:10 PM, geneb wrote: > > > > > > > https://archive.org/details/cdromsoftware?&sort=-publicdate&and[]=SGI > > > > O. M. G. Thanks! > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 14:44:48 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 15:44:48 -0500 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear god. Thank you. On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 3:19 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > This is a great start, but I wouldn't install this version. > Try to install the 6.5.22 overlay or greater. It does indeed require some > disks from this media set, but is more compatible with newer open source > software built for the platform. > > Installing 6.5.0 seems like a waste of time... > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 12:10 PM, geneb wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > https://archive.org/details/cdromsoftware?&sort=-publicdate&and[]=SGI > > > > > > > O. M. G. Thanks! > > > > -- > > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > > The Information School > > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a > Sociotechnical > > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > > > University of Washington > > > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > > > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 12 14:49:33 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 12:49:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 2016, Ian S. King wrote: > On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 12:10 PM, geneb wrote: > >> >> >> https://archive.org/details/cdromsoftware?&sort=-publicdate&and[]=SGI >> > > O. M. G. Thanks! You're welcome, but I'm just the guy pointing it out. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 12 14:50:16 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 12:50:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > This is a great start, but I wouldn't install this version. > Try to install the 6.5.22 overlay or greater. It does indeed require some > disks from this media set, but is more compatible with newer open source > software built for the platform. > > Installing 6.5.0 seems like a waste of time... > So instead of sneering about it, why not upload ISOs of that version? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jason at textfiles.com Tue Jan 12 14:54:02 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 15:54:02 -0500 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All versions from all types welcome On Jan 12, 2016 3:50 PM, "geneb" wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jan 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > > This is a great start, but I wouldn't install this version. >> Try to install the 6.5.22 overlay or greater. It does indeed require some >> disks from this media set, but is more compatible with newer open source >> software built for the platform. >> >> Installing 6.5.0 seems like a waste of time... >> >> So instead of sneering about it, why not upload ISOs of that version? > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 15:14:33 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 16:14:33 -0500 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: is this allowed? i thought it was under a restrictive licence and was not allowed to be shared freely like this? I am not complaining at all, im making about 500 copies of everything on that page ,ive been stuck outta luck with a sgi crimson without the irix 6.2 install disk needed to make it work. but still ,are you legally allowed to make copies like this? On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Jason Scott wrote: > All versions from all types welcome > On Jan 12, 2016 3:50 PM, "geneb" wrote: > > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > > > > This is a great start, but I wouldn't install this version. > >> Try to install the 6.5.22 overlay or greater. It does indeed require > some > >> disks from this media set, but is more compatible with newer open source > >> software built for the platform. > >> > >> Installing 6.5.0 seems like a waste of time... > >> > >> So instead of sneering about it, why not upload ISOs of that version? > > > > g. > > > > -- > > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > > > From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 16:25:56 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 14:25:56 -0800 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > So instead of sneering about it, why not upload ISOs of that version? I wasn't sneering at it. My goal was to advise people not to waste time performing a 4 hour install process that takes 6 CDs that each need to be read in twice only to find out they can't run anything. IRIX is one of the worst OSes to go thru such a process for. There's no need to be such an asshole about it, Gene. I was already planning on looking for the .22 CDs to upload when I get home from work, but it's times like this I wonder why I try to lift a finger to do anything for this community. Cheers, - Ian On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 12:50 PM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jan 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > > This is a great start, but I wouldn't install this version. >> Try to install the 6.5.22 overlay or greater. It does indeed require some >> disks from this media set, but is more compatible with newer open source >> software built for the platform. >> >> Installing 6.5.0 seems like a waste of time... >> >> So instead of sneering about it, why not upload ISOs of that version? > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 12 16:54:02 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 14:54:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 2016, Ian Finder wrote: >> So instead of sneering about it, why not upload ISOs of that version? > > I wasn't sneering at it. My goal was to advise people not to waste time > performing a 4 hour install process that takes 6 CDs that each need to be > read in twice only to find out they can't run anything. IRIX is one of the > worst OSes to go thru such a process for. > Because the way you worded it appeared to invalidate what was done without offering anything more than "a waste of time". Had you written, "It's a waste of time because ", then I probably wouldn't have been a dick about it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 17:19:57 2016 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 18:19:57 -0500 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Man, I've not fired up my I2 R10000 and Indy R5000 for a good decade. Twas such a great desktop compared to others of the day, even well after. I actually still miss many of the aspects of simplicity. And the graphics effects were spectacular. I should see if I can dig them up and get them going. I remember that there were freeware companion CDs out for them, but obviously you'd want to build new now. Do any of the open source projects still bother with IRIX, even if it's at latest 6.5.22? thx jake From isking at uw.edu Tue Jan 12 17:32:50 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 15:32:50 -0800 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 3:19 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Man, I've not fired up my I2 R10000 and Indy R5000 for a good decade. Twas > such a great desktop compared to others of the day, even well after. I > actually still miss many of the aspects of simplicity. And the graphics > effects were spectacular. I should see if I can dig them up and get them > going. I remember that there were freeware companion CDs out for them, but > obviously you'd want to build new now. Do any of the open source projects > still bother with IRIX, even if it's at latest 6.5.22? > > thx > jake > I need to put the two-proc module in my Octane and fire it up. Anyone know of the top of his/her head if I have to reinstall IRIX, or does it pick up on the multiproc config at boot and Do The Right Thing? Or do I just need to RTFM? -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 17:46:11 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 15:46:11 -0800 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alright- I'm not gonna get into this- people on listservs will always get what they want to out of a message- usually the worst. I am gonna look for my 6.2 CDs for the guy who has a Crimson, but I fear they're 2000 miles away in Chicago-- sitting on top of my Crimson. :( I'll look around for older versions like 4 and 3 as well... I know they're somewhere in my RAID I /DID/ find 6.5.22 and imaged it. I've *temporarily *placed the 6.5.22 overlay media on my server- someone should upload it to archive.org. I will do it at some point later, when I'm not on a cell phone... If I remember. http://quaalud.es/requests-ccmp/irix-6522/ Note: *This release is an overlay and still requires the 6.5.0 foundation set on Archive.org*- thus my comment that it was a good start! No invalidation of what others have done- in fact it is necessary to build on! (Thank you, Jason!) You need this version to run any of the excellent freeware packages in nekoware: http://nekochan.net/what-is-nekowar.html Cheers, - Ian On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 2:54 PM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jan 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > > So instead of sneering about it, why not upload ISOs of that version? >>> >> >> I wasn't sneering at it. My goal was to advise people not to waste time >> performing a 4 hour install process that takes 6 CDs that each need to be >> read in twice only to find out they can't run anything. IRIX is one of the >> worst OSes to go thru such a process for. >> >> Because the way you worded it appeared to invalidate what was done > without offering anything more than "a waste of time". Had you written, > "It's a waste of time because ", then I probably wouldn't > have been a dick about it. > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 17:55:33 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 17:55:33 -0600 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56959275.8040102@gmail.com> On 01/12/2016 05:19 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Man, I've not fired up my I2 R10000 and Indy R5000 for a good decade. My I2's just sort of sitting there are the moment because I could really use something* to give it a purpose (it's a Max Impact system with 2 x 4GB disks and 384MB of memory, so it was a pretty good spec for the day). Originated with Cray, but (unsurprisingly) they did everything via remote NFS mounts, so there's not really anything interesting on the disks. * demos, applications, whatever... something that makes good use of the graphic abilities, anyway. When I last looked it seemed that there wasn't much out there which wasn't still considered commercial software, and so unobtainable without the original media. cheers Jules From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 23:46:22 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 21:46:22 -0800 Subject: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals Message-ID: <000301d14dc5$bcab1600$36014200$@gmail.com> I just resurrected a nice HP 2631G dot matrix line printer: Like here: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=316 It has 3 empty slots for extra character ROMs, so I am itching to install some... Anyone has ever made a dump of these character ROMs? Apparently these are the same as the extra character sets ROMs used in the 264x terminal. Math, Line Draw and Japanese would be particularly fun... And French too as a nod to my roots. Marc From ethan at 757.org Tue Jan 12 23:53:23 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 00:53:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I need to put the two-proc module in my Octane and fire it up. Anyone know > of the top of his/her head if I have to reinstall IRIX, or does it pick up > on the multiproc config at boot and Do The Right Thing? Or do I just need > to RTFM? I can't remember any issue going from single CPU to 32. I might have 6.5.26 or 27 or something? I had to download some recent version of the overlays to get 8 channel recording support via lightpipe on one of the IRIX tools. Sadly the excellent IRIX man pages are wrong about the utility, it was definitely at the end of IRIX. The Solaris CD page is gonna be HUGE with all the versions of that thing ;-) -- Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Tue Jan 12 23:54:55 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 00:54:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Man, I've not fired up my I2 R10000 and Indy R5000 for a good decade. Twas > such a great desktop compared to others of the day, even well after. I > actually still miss many of the aspects of simplicity. And the graphics Just a heads up, SGI Indigo2 power supplies will fail, and it's a few caps that are documented online (4 if I recall) that just need to be swapped. -- Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Wed Jan 13 00:02:42 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 01:02:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > is this allowed? i thought it was under a restrictive licence and was not > allowed to be shared freely like this? > I am not complaining at all, im making about 500 copies of everything on > that page ,ive been stuck outta luck with a sgi crimson without the irix > 6.2 install disk needed to make it work. but still ,are you legally allowed > to make copies like this? It's just media, and it's a way dead platform. Another issue is that some of it requires this license file thing that has these codes that are needed for things like the C and C++ compilers, which generally won't compile stuff written for GCC without modifications. So if you find SGI machines always try to reset the root password and look for the license.dat file to check if it has anything special. The file contents look like this: http://pastebin.com/sw4fUyxP From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 16:38:01 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 17:38:01 -0500 Subject: I COULD JUST KICK MYSELF IN THE BUTT!!! commodore pet . . . In-Reply-To: References: <568C19BD.1090508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56942EC9.2060307@gmail.com> On 01/07/2016 03:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I don't know if >> any of you remember when they switched over to the unlimited monthly >> plan but as for in Oregon AOL Servers crashed for about 3 months from >> such a heavy load of members dialing up and connecting quick question >> here _*<------- Did this happen in your area if so where were you?*_ > Yes, I remember those times. I was everywhere. > > -- > Will, ex william at ans.net I don't think they had ANY IDEA how many people were going to hit there servers back then lol! ! ! From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 15:21:11 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 16:21:11 -0500 Subject: Amazing game??? Message-ID: <56956E47.4060404@gmail.com> I have went over and over the code here.... http://www.atariarchives.org/basicgames/showpage.php?page=3 but this is what I get??? http://i64.tinypic.com/nci35y.jpg I know all the code is right is there a misprint in the book? I am pulling my hair out...LOL From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 02:16:46 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 00:16:46 -0800 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, the versions > 6.5.22 can be nice for a variety of reasons if you've got the later hardware. [I think the last one even had an almost-totally-working default DHCP config out-of-box. ;) ] I run it on systems where I can. 6.5.22 is nice because it doesn't have dependencies on some of the harder to find later developer CDs, and it is the last version I expect a lot of the SGI hardware changing hands these days, but it is sufficient for the late SGIs too. (later versions drop Indy, Indigo2, Onyx, etc.) *anyway- If you plan on ever installing more than a couple SGIs...* Doing a* full and up-to-date *install from scratch using the CDs is a *pain* . Solution- netboot. The CDs [there are a zillion point release layer things] are in EFS format and can't be mounted on OS X or Windows. At some point I mounted them all on Linux and wrote a script that copied the /dist folders to a folder structure on an NFS share I use to do a net install. It has various mid-release CD versions for things like the Developer Libraries and NFS discs, and can do a pretty full install of both 6.5.30 and 6.5.22 for older (I2, Indy, etc.) systems. There's also some demos / application CDs, and some of the more recent SGI-built [freeware- mozilla, etc] freeware CDs. *These are all components of IRIX itself as supplied with systems over the years*, but the layered CD-based software distribution model employed by SGI is maddening. I don't have the original images- I never plan to touch an IRIX CD again. What's SGI-rackable's take? pretty sure support for these ended LONG ago- last release is 10 years old and they will not sell you IRIX, nor current or extended support. I could look into tarring this up and getting it on Archive.org. - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From jon at jonworld.com Wed Jan 13 02:19:37 2016 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 09:19:37 +0100 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > Yeah, the versions > 6.5.22 can be nice for a variety of reasons if you've > got the later hardware. [I think the last one even had an > almost-totally-working default DHCP config out-of-box. ;) ] > > I run it on systems where I can. The only thing I really want for Christmas is a modern JDK/JRE running on Irix. From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 06:18:02 2016 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 07:18:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > Solution- netboot. > > The CDs [there are a zillion point release layer things] are in EFS > format and can't be mounted on OS X or Windows. At some point I mounted > them all on Linux and wrote a script that copied the /dist folders to a > folder structure on an NFS share I use to do a net install. The net-based install was rather fussy about the shell on the installation server. To work around it, I wrote a Linux pre-load shim that caught all invocations and directed them to the compatible shell binary. If this is of interest to anyone, I can probably unearth the code from a backup tape (my SGIs - and the installation server - have been gone for years). -- From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jan 13 07:48:43 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 14:48:43 +0100 Subject: TDL 8K Z80 Basic.. In-Reply-To: <20160112142507.GA98837@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20160112142507.GA98837@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20160113134843.GA91030@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Currently I'm fiddeling around with the old 8 Kbyte Z80 Basic Interpreter > from TDL, found an Paper Tape Image here: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/p/tdlsoft.zip > on Dave Dunfields pages. > > I've used the 12K Version from TDL many years before on my home computer > and now we have a project on robotrontechnik.de with an SBC and I've ported > the P112 Tiny Basic already to this SBC, now I want to try the 8K TDL > Version. > > ... > > Has someone still a computer with that 8K TDL Basic in use? > > In the moment I'm writing a loader that can "autopatch" the relocation > Bytes in the TDL HEX file format from the Paper Tapes. Someone used that > before? > > Regards, > > Holm > Sems that I've properly managed to decode the TDL-HEX File and loaded the File to execute at 0x200: mem 0fa00h ok starting memmove jump to monitor entry Zapple V1.1 >g200 HIGHEST MEMORY? 52926 BYTES FREE Welcome to BASIC, Ver. 1.3 >READY ...running fine so far. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ben at bensinclair.com Wed Jan 13 08:01:54 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 08:01:54 -0600 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Amazing, thank you! I just finished putting together my dream system from 1997 or so, an O2 with a 1600SW. I'm running the latest IRIX on there, but have been looking of the development overlays. On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 2:10 PM, geneb wrote: > > > https://archive.org/details/cdromsoftware?&sort=-publicdate&and[]=SGI > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 13 08:26:14 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 08:26:14 -0600 Subject: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals In-Reply-To: <000301d14dc5$bcab1600$36014200$@gmail.com> References: <000301d14dc5$bcab1600$36014200$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001501d14e0e$5bc79450$1356bcf0$@classiccmp.org> Marc wrote... --------------------- I just resurrected a nice HP 2631G dot matrix line printer: Like here: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=316 --------------------- Very nice printer, I'm jealous. However, I do have an HP 2610A that will get restored/running at some point. That thing shakes the house and walks across the floor (used one in high school). --------------------- It has 3 empty slots for extra character ROMs, so I am itching to install some... Anyone has ever made a dump of these character ROMs? --------------------- Would be surprised - given HP/DSD at the time - if there wasn't an APL character set :) J From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 09:44:13 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 10:44:13 -0500 Subject: I COULD JUST KICK MYSELF IN THE BUTT!!! commodore pet . . . In-Reply-To: <56942EC9.2060307@gmail.com> References: <568C19BD.1090508@gmail.com> <56942EC9.2060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I don't think they had ANY IDEA how many people were going to hit there > servers back then lol! ! ! No, there was a good idea of the exploding usage figures, but the estimate fell short for both the server usage and the modem usage. US Robotics had trouble producing enough Total Control modems. -- Will From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 09:45:38 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 09:45:38 -0600 Subject: Amazing game??? In-Reply-To: <56956E47.4060404@gmail.com> References: <56956E47.4060404@gmail.com> Message-ID: FWIW, I can't see the pic.. just a page full of busy ads, But I do remember the maze generator program. On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Mike wrote: > I have went over and over the code here.... > > http://www.atariarchives.org/basicgames/showpage.php?page=3 > > > > but this is what I get??? > > > http://i64.tinypic.com/nci35y.jpg > > I know all the code is right is there a misprint in the book? > > I am pulling my hair out...LOL > > > From cube1 at charter.net Wed Jan 13 10:46:11 2016 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 10:46:11 -0600 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56967F53.10508@charter.net> Thanks for the pointer. I have an INDY with no software (well, at least no convenient software - I have IRIX 5.22 as 3 tar.gz files. I guess I will need to drag it out and if it still runs, get it a simulated SCSI disk (I don't have any disks in mine). JRJ On 1/12/2016 2:10 PM, geneb wrote: > > > https://archive.org/details/cdromsoftware?&sort=-publicdate&and[]=SGI > > g. > > From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Wed Jan 13 12:39:10 2016 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 12:39:10 -0600 Subject: Sun SPARC at iBid State of Illinois auction site again Message-ID: Hey everyone, I was browsing and I noticed that there's another Sun SPARC posted up: https://ibid.illinois.gov/item.php?id=170591 last time, I think there was one that went for a mere $5. Now of course, you gotta move it or pay to have it moved, but if you're interested, act now and start getting an account on the site. When I got my account, I had to wait a few days before they actually got my account set up. Anyway, given that this is the second time I've seen Sun equipment on the site at the same location, I would venture to guess someone over here in IL government is phasing out their sun stuff, so maybe it's worth checking in the future as well for more stuff if anyone's interested. Regards, Joe From azd30 at telus.net Wed Jan 13 12:45:59 2016 From: azd30 at telus.net (azd30) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 11:45:59 -0700 (MST) Subject: Amazing game??? In-Reply-To: <56956E47.4060404@gmail.com> References: <56956E47.4060404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1281732773.1931157.1452710759376.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> [ tulsamike3434 (at) gmail.com wrote...] > > I have went over and over the code here.... > > http://www.atariarchives.org/basicgames/showpage.php?page=3 > > but this is what I get??? > > http://i64.tinypic.com/nci35y.jpg > > I know all the code is right is there a misprint in the book? > > I am pulling my hair out...LOL > Stop pulling your hair out and start doing some debugging... 8-) The error message is pretty self explanatory - either r+1 or s is outside the range for the DIM's in 110. 1. Start sticking in PRINT statements 115 print "***DBG: array dim", h, v 675 print "***DBG: before if", r+1, s to figure out what bad values (if any) you are getting. Then if bad values, start going back through the code - how do you get to line 670 (from 530 and 540 and, and....) try it to understand the program using the paper and pencil method to debug it (and a simple dimension of 1x2 2x3 etc, so you don't have to go through too many times) What is starting at 530? Looks like subroutines, since the code at 510, 520 is pretty much telling you that you need to go to 790+ Is your version of basic different than the Microsoft 8080 Basic for the Altair that the book was written for? How? cheers -- alex From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Wed Jan 13 12:49:25 2016 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 12:49:25 -0600 Subject: Sun SPARC at iBid State of Illinois auction site again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Hey everyone, > I was browsing and I noticed that there's another Sun SPARC posted up: > > https://ibid.illinois.gov/item.php?id=170591 > > last time, I think there was one that went for a mere $5. Now of course, you gotta move it or pay to have it moved, but if you're interested, act now and start getting an account on the site. When I got my account, I had to wait a few days before they actually got my account set up. > > Anyway, given that this is the second time I've seen Sun equipment on the site at the same location, I would venture to guess someone over here in IL government is phasing out their sun stuff, so maybe it's worth checking in the future as well for more stuff if anyone's interested. > > Regards, > Joe I guess I should correct myself, the $5 was for something else I was thinking of. Last time a Sun was up, it went for $113.50. From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 12:47:18 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 12:47:18 -0600 Subject: Amazing game??? In-Reply-To: References: <56956E47.4060404@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 9:45 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > FWIW, I can't see the pic.. just a page full of busy ads, > > But I do remember the maze generator program. > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Mike wrote: > > > I have went over and over the code here.... > > > > http://www.atariarchives.org/basicgames/showpage.php?page=3 > > > > > > > > but this is what I get??? > > > > > > http://i64.tinypic.com/nci35y.jpg > > > > I know all the code is right is there a misprint in the book? > > > > I am pulling my hair out...LOL > > > > > > > ?I think there has to be a typo in the book there is no other possibility!? -- *Mike's ?Honda ATC 3wheeler? Shop? for LIFE!!!* * Have a blessed day!* From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 16:29:38 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 17:29:38 -0500 Subject: Building a PC - then & now Message-ID: I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck, that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed? Happy computing. Murray :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 13 16:40:28 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 15:40:28 -0700 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/13/2016 3:29 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a > PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a > refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a > computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck, > that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs > INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed? > > Happy computing. > > Murray :) > > I still think you can build a Car, but VW parts are not as common as it was once. Ben. PS: BUILD A PDP-K, a nice 18 bit that never was. From isking at uw.edu Wed Jan 13 16:54:04 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 14:54:04 -0800 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Can't build a TV? Heathkit. On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 2:40 PM, ben wrote: > On 1/13/2016 3:29 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > >> I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a >> PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a >> refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a >> computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck, >> that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs >> INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed? >> >> Happy computing. >> >> Murray :) >> >> >> I still think you can build a Car, but VW parts are not as common > as it was once. > Ben. > PS: BUILD A PDP-K, a nice 18 bit that never was. > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 17:01:37 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 18:01:37 -0500 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Errrrr...Heathkit is long gone. However, there are at least a few car guys that might have a thing or two to say about the original post. -- Will On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > Can't build a TV? Heathkit. > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 2:40 PM, ben wrote: > >> On 1/13/2016 3:29 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: >> >>> I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a >>> PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a >>> refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a >>> computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck, >>> that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs >>> INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed? >>> >>> Happy computing. >>> >>> Murray :) >>> >>> >>> I still think you can build a Car, but VW parts are not as common >> as it was once. >> Ben. >> PS: BUILD A PDP-K, a nice 18 bit that never was. >> >> > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jan 13 17:07:23 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 15:07:23 -0800 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3DF16E6E-9400-4C90-899A-3E457940A092@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 13, 2016, at 3:01 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > Errrrr...Heathkit is long gone. > > However, there are at least a few car guys that might have a thing or > two to say about the original post. > I agree. Kit cars are still around. ;-) I don?t know about how easy it would be to build a TV (from scratch?something Heathkit didn?t do BTW?tuner was pre-assembled and ?tuned?) given that the over-the-air signal is now a digital signal vs analog (ie I can?t recall if there?s any encryption involved that would require decryption keys). TTFN - Guy From jrr at flippers.com Wed Jan 13 17:14:41 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 15:14:41 -0800 Subject: Free (pay shipping) Hp DDS-4 40gb tapes (only have two) Message-ID: <5696DA61.40807@flippers.com> I have two sealed C5718A tapes that are free to the first person to ask for them and pay shipping. I hate to throw out something that may still be useful. Can mail them for $5 (I think) to the USA, or local pickup. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From isking at uw.edu Wed Jan 13 17:16:55 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 15:16:55 -0800 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <3DF16E6E-9400-4C90-899A-3E457940A092@shiresoft.com> References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <3DF16E6E-9400-4C90-899A-3E457940A092@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On Jan 13, 2016, at 3:01 PM, William Donzelli > wrote: > > > > Errrrr...Heathkit is long gone. > > > > However, there are at least a few car guys that might have a thing or > > two to say about the original post. > > > > I agree. Kit cars are still around. ;-) > > I don?t know about how easy it would be to build a TV (from > scratch?something > Heathkit didn?t do BTW?tuner was pre-assembled and ?tuned?) given that the > over-the-air signal is now a digital signal vs analog (ie I can?t recall > if there?s any > encryption involved that would require decryption keys). > > TTFN - Guy > > > Certainly, but the OP seemed to be referring to the historical context of the construction of so-called "personal computers", especially 8-bit machines. And just to stretch the point a bit, amateur radio operators were building and using slow-scan TV systems in the 1970s. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 13 17:19:49 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 17:19:49 -0600 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5696DB95.3060107@pico-systems.com> On 01/13/2016 04:29 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a > PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a > refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a > computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck, > that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs > INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed? > > Hmmm, well. I can build a phone (not a cell phone, of course, but a land-line phone is relatively simple.) Some people have definitely built cars, and gotten them licensed. I have built things that are essentially refrigerators. We have one of those ice cream makers that takes about a ton of ice cubes to make one quart of ice cream. I hacked up some refrigeration components to chill the brine, which gets re-used. Works great! My insane friend Walter turned his Tek RM35 scope into a TV, and watched TV on a 5" green screen while he was in college. Hmm, Walter also cloned a Data General Nova with piles of TTL chips. Probably very little by AMD or Intel in there, either. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 17:27:17 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 18:27:17 -0500 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <3DF16E6E-9400-4C90-899A-3E457940A092@shiresoft.com> References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <3DF16E6E-9400-4C90-899A-3E457940A092@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > I don?t know about how easy it would be to build a TV (from scratch?something > Heathkit didn?t do BTW?tuner was pre-assembled and ?tuned?) given that the > over-the-air signal is now a digital signal vs analog (ie I can?t recall if there?s any > encryption involved that would require decryption keys). In the old days, the shitty kit TVs would have continuous tuners. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 13 18:38:27 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 17:38:27 -0700 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <3DF16E6E-9400-4C90-899A-3E457940A092@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5696EE03.7000702@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/13/2016 4:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I don?t know about how easy it would be to build a TV (from scratch?something >> Heathkit didn?t do BTW?tuner was pre-assembled and ?tuned?) given that the >> over-the-air signal is now a digital signal vs analog (ie I can?t recall if there?s any >> encryption involved that would require decryption keys). > > In the old days, the shitty kit TVs would have continuous tuners. But then again you only had 1 TV channel at most in the AREA. *** THE TWILIGHT ZONE *** From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 18:40:03 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 18:40:03 -0600 Subject: Amazing game??? In-Reply-To: References: <56956E47.4060404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160114004002.GA89321@gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016, Mike Boyle wrote: > On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 9:45 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > FWIW, I can't see the pic.. just a page full of busy ads, > > > > But I do remember the maze generator program. > > > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Mike wrote: > > > > > I have went over and over the code here.... > > > > > > http://www.atariarchives.org/basicgames/showpage.php?page=3 > > > > > > > > > > > > but this is what I get??? > > > > > > > > > http://i64.tinypic.com/nci35y.jpg > > > > > > I know all the code is right is there a misprint in the book? > > > > > > I am pulling my hair out...LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?I think there has to be a typo in the book there is no other possibility!? One potential problem is that it looks like it's for 80 columns and you're running it on a system with only 40. -- Eric Christopherson From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 13 18:54:37 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 16:54:37 -0800 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <3DF16E6E-9400-4C90-899A-3E457940A092@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5696F1CD.6030107@sydex.com> On 01/13/2016 03:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > In the old days, the shitty kit TVs would have continuous tuners. In prewar days, it seems that there more than a couple of offerings. Didn't Meissner(they of the "Signal Shifter" VFO) offer a kit TV in the 30s/early 40s? I do remember the continuous tuners, though--two bands--and one could even tune Channel 1. A large number of Heathkit color TVs were built by vets using funding from the GI bill. Those were Heath's good days... --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 13 18:57:59 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 19:57:59 -0500 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7B53C0F6-00D0-4982-865A-1E79DEAE2079@comcast.net> > On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:01 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > Errrrr...Heathkit is long gone. It was for a while. But it's back. Check out heathkit.com. paul From isking at uw.edu Wed Jan 13 18:59:03 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 16:59:03 -0800 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <5696F1CD.6030107@sydex.com> References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <3DF16E6E-9400-4C90-899A-3E457940A092@shiresoft.com> <5696F1CD.6030107@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/13/2016 03:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > In the old days, the shitty kit TVs would have continuous tuners. >> > > In prewar days, it seems that there more than a couple of offerings. > Didn't Meissner(they of the "Signal Shifter" VFO) offer a kit TV in the > 30s/early 40s? I do remember the continuous tuners, though--two bands--and > one could even tune Channel 1. > > A large number of Heathkit color TVs were built by vets using funding from > the GI bill. Those were Heath's good days... > > --Chuck > > ISTR ads in magazines like Popular Electronics offering courses on TV repair that employed the Heathkit as the learning platform. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 19:07:10 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 20:07:10 -0500 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <7B53C0F6-00D0-4982-865A-1E79DEAE2079@comcast.net> References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <7B53C0F6-00D0-4982-865A-1E79DEAE2079@comcast.net> Message-ID: Is that the guy that bought the Heath IP? -- Will On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 7:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:01 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> Errrrr...Heathkit is long gone. > > It was for a while. But it's back. Check out heathkit.com. > > paul > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 13 19:15:19 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 20:15:19 -0500 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <7B53C0F6-00D0-4982-865A-1E79DEAE2079@comcast.net> Message-ID: <550A45D1-42B4-45A2-BE2F-33ADD8F28537@comcast.net> Must be. New kits, old manuals, upgrades for old kits -- at least a brief glance gave me a pretty positive impression. paul > On Jan 13, 2016, at 8:07 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > Is that the guy that bought the Heath IP? > > -- > Will > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 7:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:01 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>> Errrrr...Heathkit is long gone. >> >> It was for a while. But it's back. Check out heathkit.com. >> >> paul >> >> From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Jan 13 19:56:35 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 20:56:35 -0500 Subject: Building a PC - then & now Message-ID: <40c93.410aa88b.43c85a52@aol.com> I think the Pilot brand TV at the museum may be continuous and yes has chan 1 Ed! In a message dated 1/13/2016 5:54:46 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cclist at sydex.com writes: On 01/13/2016 03:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > In the old days, the shitty kit TVs would have continuous tuners. In prewar days, it seems that there more than a couple of offerings. Didn't Meissner(they of the "Signal Shifter" VFO) offer a kit TV in the 30s/early 40s? I do remember the continuous tuners, though--two bands--and one could even tune Channel 1. A large number of Heathkit color TVs were built by vets using funding from the GI bill. Those were Heath's good days... --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Wed Jan 13 20:28:55 2016 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 20:28:55 -0600 Subject: Heathkit (Re: Building a PC - then & now) In-Reply-To: <550A45D1-42B4-45A2-BE2F-33ADD8F28537@comcast.net> References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <7B53C0F6-00D0-4982-865A-1E79DEAE2079@comcast.net> <550A45D1-42B4-45A2-BE2F-33ADD8F28537@comcast.net> Message-ID: <569707E7.7030205@charter.net> On 1/13/2016 7:15 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Must be. New kits, old manuals, upgrades for old kits -- at least a brief glance gave me a pretty positive impression. > > paul > Meh. It has taken them, like, 5 years to come out with this seriously overpriced radio, and it isn't even superhet for crying out loud. The rest are just pieces parts. They created a lot of hype, but have done almost nothing real. Maybe someday they will be real, but not yet. JRJ From rwiker at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 00:51:34 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 07:51:34 +0100 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 11:29 PM, Murray McCullough < c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote: > I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a > PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a > refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a > computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck, > that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs > INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed? > I'd say that we still have the freedom to build a computer; in fact, it's probably easier than it ever was. True, it may not be feasible to build a high-performance computer based on current generation x86 chips, but there are so many alternatives: some of the 8-bit favourites are still being made (6502, z80); then there's the AVR, PIC, TI 430, the Propeller, various ARM chips. There are free or low-cost CAD packages, and having small series of PCBs made is almost ridiculously cheap. You can get logic analyzers for $150 or so, and if you want to experiment with FPGAs, you can get useful development systems for well below $100. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 01:39:00 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 23:39:00 -0800 Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) In-Reply-To: <8D9DE2F4FCE5421F8920A0A3B2A82F52@ranger1> References: <00ed01d14809$360185b0$a2049110$@gmail.com> <8D9DE2F4FCE5421F8920A0A3B2A82F52@ranger1> Message-ID: <003f01d14e9e$a2c5b400$e8511c00$@gmail.com> Looks like someone beat me to it. Congrats to whomever it is, I hope it's one of us! Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "CuriousMarc" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tue 05 Jan 2016 03:34 PM Subject: RE: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) I'm on it... Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 8:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist) Someone go get this. posted: 2016-01-04 12:20pm http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5387506164.html I have the following HP 3000 computer equipment in my basement yours FREE for removal QTY Description ----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 HP 3000 series 30 Computers 4 HP 7925 disk drives 1 HP 2608A line printer 1 HP 7970E tape drive 2 HP 3000 Console Terminals 3 HP 2645A terminals 2 HP 2631A terminal printers The picture shown is of 3 disk drives and the Tape drive when new (1980). This equipment has been mostly idle for 20+ years. The first 4 line items of equipment above are relatively large and would require at least 2 men to remove each item from my basement. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 01:41:31 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 23:41:31 -0800 Subject: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals In-Reply-To: <001501d14e0e$5bc79450$1356bcf0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000301d14dc5$bcab1600$36014200$@gmail.com> <001501d14e0e$5bc79450$1356bcf0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004101d14e9e$fc7a2e40$f56e8ac0$@gmail.com> And I was already salivating for the 600 lines/minute HP2608 that was part of the HP 3000 system since I have the interface card for it. Looks like it went to a lucky someone else... Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 6:26 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals Marc wrote... --------------------- I just resurrected a nice HP 2631G dot matrix line printer: Like here: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=316 --------------------- Very nice printer, I'm jealous. However, I do have an HP 2610A that will get restored/running at some point. That thing shakes the house and walks across the floor (used one in high school). --------------------- It has 3 empty slots for extra character ROMs, so I am itching to install some... Anyone has ever made a dump of these character ROMs? --------------------- Would be surprised - given HP/DSD at the time - if there wasn't an APL character set :) J From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 04:04:03 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 10:04:03 -0000 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <7B53C0F6-00D0-4982-865A-1E79DEAE2079@comcast.net> References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <7B53C0F6-00D0-4982-865A-1E79DEAE2079@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00c201d14eb2$e6471b60$b2d55220$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning > Sent: 14 January 2016 00:58 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Building a PC - then & now > > > > On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:01 PM, William Donzelli > wrote: > > > > Errrrr...Heathkit is long gone. > > It was for a while. But it's back. Check out heathkit.com. > > paul > Only one kit that uses threaded screw down contacts to avoid soldering. Dave From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 04:09:14 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 10:09:14 -0000 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c401d14eb3$9f9b6990$ded23cb0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Raymond > Wiker > Sent: 14 January 2016 06:52 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Building a PC - then & now > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 11:29 PM, Murray McCullough < > c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote: > > > I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a > > PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a > > refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a > > computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck, > > that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs > > INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed? > > > > I'd say that we still have the freedom to build a computer; in fact, it's > probably easier than it ever was. True, it may not be feasible to build a high- > performance computer based on current generation x86 chips, but there are > so many alternatives: some of the 8-bit favourites are still being made (6502, > z80); then there's the AVR, PIC, TI 430, the Propeller, various ARM chips. > > There are free or low-cost CAD packages, and having small series of PCBs > made is almost ridiculously cheap. You can get logic analyzers for $150 or so, > and if you want to experiment with FPGAs, you can get useful development > systems for well below $100. I would say we have more freedom now than ever before. Perhaps Ghz mother boards are beyond most people, but other than that there are folks building every sort of computer, other than perhaps valve machines. >From transistor based CPUs, through TTL based CPU's , Microprocessor machines up to FPGA based CPU's... Dave From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jan 14 08:22:57 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 14:22:57 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Scan of finished item available Message-ID: <5697AF41.1090709@btinternet.com> Hi Guys PDP-8/e types A + B complete. Scan of finished item available. See what you are getting. Packaging due in next day or so. Rod From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 08:40:43 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 06:40:43 -0800 Subject: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals In-Reply-To: <004101d14e9e$fc7a2e40$f56e8ac0$@gmail.com> References: <000301d14dc5$bcab1600$36014200$@gmail.com> <001501d14e0e$5bc79450$1356bcf0$@classiccmp.org> <004101d14e9e$fc7a2e40$f56e8ac0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 11:41 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: > And I was already salivating for the 600 lines/minute HP2608 that was part of the HP 3000 system since I have the interface card for it. Looks like it went to a lucky someone else... > Marc I have a 2608A that I still haven't gotten around to trying since I acquired it years ago. My project for the beginning of this year is to get my garage cleaned up. Maybe I'll finally have space again to try getting it working with an HP-1000. It says 400 LPM here, not 600. Still, that would be interesting to see work through a pile of paper. http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=315 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 14 09:00:50 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 07:00:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <7B53C0F6-00D0-4982-865A-1E79DEAE2079@comcast.net> References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <7B53C0F6-00D0-4982-865A-1E79DEAE2079@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:01 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> Errrrr...Heathkit is long gone. > > It was for a while. But it's back. Check out heathkit.com. > The radio kit they're selling is an embarassment. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 09:08:56 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 10:08:56 -0500 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <7B53C0F6-00D0-4982-865A-1E79DEAE2079@comcast.net> Message-ID: > The radio kit they're selling is an embarassment. So was the O-1. -- Will From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 14 13:24:43 2016 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 20:24:43 +0100 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <00c401d14eb3$9f9b6990$ded23cb0$@gmail.com> References: <00c401d14eb3$9f9b6990$ded23cb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5697F5FB.7090306@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 14.01.16 um 11:09 schrieb Dave Wade: > I would say we have more freedom now than ever before. Perhaps Ghz > mother boards are beyond most people, but other than that there are > folks building every sort of computer, other than perhaps valve > machines. There is the MUNIAC: http://www.cray-cyber.org/hardware/Hardware.php Though, uncompleted. (IIRC they have the ALU mostly finished.) But still a "modern" design valve computer build by hobbyists. Some Geek-Porn: https://www.flickr.com/photos/stiefkind/43091224 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Okona http://www.cray-cyber.org/static/tours2004/LARGE/J_MUNIAC.jpg http://www.cray-cyber.org/static/tours2004/LARGE/J_MUNIC-Roehrenrechner.jpg -- tsch??, Jochen From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 14 13:54:44 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 11:54:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <5697F5FB.7090306@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <00c401d14eb3$9f9b6990$ded23cb0$@gmail.com> <5697F5FB.7090306@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Howzbout an updated version similar to Cardiac? Or, a DIY kit for an Antikythera? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 14 13:59:59 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 12:59:59 -0700 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <5697F5FB.7090306@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <00c401d14eb3$9f9b6990$ded23cb0$@gmail.com> <5697F5FB.7090306@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5697FE3F.2080105@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/14/2016 12:24 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > There is the MUNIAC: http://www.cray-cyber.org/hardware/Hardware.php > Though, uncompleted. (IIRC they have the ALU mostly finished.) But still > a "modern" design valve computer build by hobbyists. > Some Geek-Porn: Arg! The PDF links are dead. How about posting the PDF's if you have them to bitsavers. Ben. From other at oryx.us Thu Jan 14 14:00:23 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 14:00:23 -0600 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5697FE57.4060803@oryx.us> Sure you can build a car. Assuming I have the spare $$$$$, I could build a brand new 1969 Camaro. With out ever going to GM. Assuming you have the know how and skills, your biggest problem might be deciding which vendor your money will go to for various parts. Plenty of other US cars could be built in a similar fashion, but the Chevrolet is probably one of the more popular ones. Some also mentioned VW's. Another good canidate. Jerry On 01/13/16 04:29 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a > PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a > refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a > computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck, > that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs > INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed? > > Happy computing. > > Murray :) > From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 14:18:16 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:18:16 -0500 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <5697FE3F.2080105@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <00c401d14eb3$9f9b6990$ded23cb0$@gmail.com> <5697F5FB.7090306@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5697FE3F.2080105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <040b01d14f08$b47193d0$1d54bb70$@gmail.com> The Internet Archive Wayback Machine is our friend! https://web.archive.org/web/20100220165315/http://static.cray-cyber.org/Hardware/MUNIAC.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20100220165315/http://static.cray-cyber.org/Hardware/PaperMUNIAC.pdf -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 3:00 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Building a PC - then & now On 1/14/2016 12:24 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > There is the MUNIAC: http://www.cray-cyber.org/hardware/Hardware.php > Though, uncompleted. (IIRC they have the ALU mostly finished.) But > still a "modern" design valve computer build by hobbyists. > Some Geek-Porn: Arg! The PDF links are dead. How about posting the PDF's if you have them to bitsavers. Ben. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 14:35:43 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 12:35:43 -0800 Subject: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals In-Reply-To: References: <000301d14dc5$bcab1600$36014200$@gmail.com> <001501d14e0e$5bc79450$1356bcf0$@classiccmp.org> <004101d14e9e$fc7a2e40$f56e8ac0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0abb01d14f0b$2450ba80$6cf22f80$@gmail.com> Ah yes, you are right, 400 LPM. Our IBM 1403 at the CHM is 600 LPM and is a pretty impressive (and VERY loud) beast when it prints at full tilt, so I'd think the smaller 2608 should give a nice visual and sound performance when it starts cooking... Cleaning your garage you must. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 6:41 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 11:41 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: > And I was already salivating for the 600 lines/minute HP2608 that was part of the HP 3000 system since I have the interface card for it. Looks like it went to a lucky someone else... > Marc I have a 2608A that I still haven't gotten around to trying since I acquired it years ago. My project for the beginning of this year is to get my garage cleaned up. Maybe I'll finally have space again to try getting it working with an HP-1000. It says 400 LPM here, not 600. Still, that would be interesting to see work through a pile of paper. http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=315 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jan 14 15:02:10 2016 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:02:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals In-Reply-To: <0abb01d14f0b$2450ba80$6cf22f80$@gmail.com> References: <000301d14dc5$bcab1600$36014200$@gmail.com> <001501d14e0e$5bc79450$1356bcf0$@classiccmp.org> <004101d14e9e$fc7a2e40$f56e8ac0$@gmail.com> <0abb01d14f0b$2450ba80$6cf22f80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: The 2608 uses a linear "voice coil" motor to move the corebar, and is actually pretty quiet with the lid closed. The motor "hums" more than anything else, and the hammers aren't that loud, either. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ On Thu, 14 Jan 2016, Curious Marc wrote: > Ah yes, you are right, 400 LPM. Our IBM 1403 at the CHM is 600 LPM and > is a pretty impressive (and VERY loud) beast when it prints at full > tilt, so I'd think the smaller 2608 should give a nice visual and sound > performance when it starts cooking... Cleaning your garage you must. > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 6:41 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 11:41 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: >> And I was already salivating for the 600 lines/minute HP2608 that was part of the HP 3000 system since I have the interface card for it. Looks like it went to a lucky someone else... >> Marc > > I have a 2608A that I still haven't gotten around to trying since I acquired it years ago. My project for the beginning of this year is to get my garage cleaned up. Maybe I'll finally have space again to try getting it working with an HP-1000. > > It says 400 LPM here, not 600. Still, that would be interesting to see work through a pile of paper. > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=315 > > From other at oryx.us Thu Jan 14 15:04:19 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:04:19 -0600 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: <56967F53.10508@charter.net> References: <56967F53.10508@charter.net> Message-ID: <56980D53.7050608@oryx.us> Hello Jay, Regarding the simulated SCSI disk, hoping you can explain further. The last time I had an IRIX based workstation on my desk was in 2007, and all this SGI discussion has me wanting to go and hunt down a Fuel. Curious how the simulated disk thing works. Thank you, Jerry On 01/13/16 10:46 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Thanks for the pointer. I have an INDY with no software (well, at least > no convenient software - I have IRIX 5.22 as 3 tar.gz files. > > I guess I will need to drag it out and if it still runs, get it a > simulated SCSI disk (I don't have any disks in mine). > > JRJ > > On 1/12/2016 2:10 PM, geneb wrote: >> >> >> https://archive.org/details/cdromsoftware?&sort=-publicdate&and[]=SGI >> >> g. >> >> From other at oryx.us Thu Jan 14 15:04:19 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:04:19 -0600 Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: <56967F53.10508@charter.net> References: <56967F53.10508@charter.net> Message-ID: <56980D53.7050608@oryx.us> Hello Jay, Regarding the simulated SCSI disk, hoping you can explain further. The last time I had an IRIX based workstation on my desk was in 2007, and all this SGI discussion has me wanting to go and hunt down a Fuel. Curious how the simulated disk thing works. Thank you, Jerry On 01/13/16 10:46 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Thanks for the pointer. I have an INDY with no software (well, at least > no convenient software - I have IRIX 5.22 as 3 tar.gz files. > > I guess I will need to drag it out and if it still runs, get it a > simulated SCSI disk (I don't have any disks in mine). > > JRJ > > On 1/12/2016 2:10 PM, geneb wrote: >> >> >> https://archive.org/details/cdromsoftware?&sort=-publicdate&and[]=SGI >> >> g. >> >> From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 16:23:32 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 22:23:32 -0000 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: References: <00c401d14eb3$9f9b6990$ded23cb0$@gmail.com> <5697F5FB.7090306@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <013401d14f1a$340daaf0$9c2900d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 14 January 2016 19:55 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Building a PC - then & now > > Howzbout an updated version similar to Cardiac? > > > Or, a DIY kit for an Antikythera? Appart from the fact it is not actually programmable, I am a tad surprised you can't 3d print one... Dave > > From chd at chdickman.com Thu Jan 14 20:14:36 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 21:14:36 -0500 Subject: DATAIO 201 prom programmer Message-ID: I have a DATAIO 201 prom programmer that fails the self test with an error 75. The error translates to a pin fault. Any help with schematics or suggested debugging experience appreciated. -chuck From pieroandreini at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 17:26:14 2016 From: pieroandreini at gmail.com (Piero Andreini) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 00:26:14 +0100 Subject: Alphatronic P2 Manuals Message-ID: <830794CA-8033-4FCD-A3B8-55A4288611CF@gmail.com> Hello, I scanned several manuals belong the Alphatronic P2 300dpi pdf no compression. How can I upload them for Bitsavers? Thanks, Piero From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 15 03:36:16 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 10:36:16 +0100 (CET) Subject: Alphatronic P2 Manuals In-Reply-To: <830794CA-8033-4FCD-A3B8-55A4288611CF@gmail.com> References: <830794CA-8033-4FCD-A3B8-55A4288611CF@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Piero Andreini wrote: > I scanned several manuals belong the Alphatronic P2 300dpi pdf no > compression. Nice; is there any manual not found on ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/alphatronic/ ? And BTW, IMO 600dpi is a *minimum* nowadays. No matter what some people say, I think 300dpi text (and escpecially schematic) scans just suck. Christian From Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de Fri Jan 15 05:39:11 2016 From: Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de (Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 11:39:11 +0000 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? Message-ID: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305133D2@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> I have got a HP 9000/217 machine with a standard video card. This card has a monochrome composite output (resolution is as low as about 512x400, but I might replace it with a higher resolution card). A small 9" HP monitor that I used for testing only shows me 2 or 3 bands of the image and cannot capture the signal properly. All I have are modern TFT monitors which usually have VGA and/or DVI inputs, no separate R-G-B or monochrome jacks. What is the preferred way to connect "old" composite video signals to a modern TFT monitor without losing too much sharpness? I understand that interpolation is an unavoidable problem. Searching the internet did not give me a clear answer. Do you have any recommendations? Thank you, Martin From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 06:29:13 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 12:29:13 -0000 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305133D2@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305133D2@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: <032f01d14f90$580b5e40$08221ac0$@gmail.com> Assuming you are in Germany I would use an LCD TV with SCART I assume devices with SCART inputs are available there. Does Aldi in Germany do weekly offers as in the UK. I especially bought one of their TV's because it had a wide range of inputs. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de > Sent: 15 January 2016 11:39 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? > > I have got a HP 9000/217 machine with a standard video card. This card has a > monochrome composite output (resolution is as low as about 512x400, but I > might replace it with a higher resolution card). A small 9" HP monitor that I > used for testing only shows me 2 or 3 bands of the image and cannot capture > the signal properly. > > All I have are modern TFT monitors which usually have VGA and/or DVI > inputs, no separate R-G-B or monochrome jacks. > > What is the preferred way to connect "old" composite video signals to a > modern TFT monitor without losing too much sharpness? I understand that > interpolation is an unavoidable problem. > > Searching the internet did not give me a clear answer. Do you have any > recommendations? > > Thank you, Martin From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Jan 15 06:37:27 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 07:37:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305133D2@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305133D2@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: <201601151237.HAA16880@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > All I have are modern TFT monitors which usually have VGA and/or DVI inputs,$ > What is the preferred way to connect "old" composite video signals to a mode$ Please don't use paragraph-length lines. Any monitor that takes DE-15 ("VGA") or DVI-A input is, electrically speaking, taking R-G-B signals; passive adapters exist (I've seen them from DE-15 with 13W3 and 4BNC on the other end; I'm sure plenty of others exist). (Be careful with DVI; there are at least two kinds of DVI, and it's just DVI-A, AIUI, that fits this description.) Interpolation is not unavoidable. The better flatscreens have a way to tell the monitor to letterbox rather than scale signals whose resolution is less than the monitor's. _Good_ flatscreens have an option to scale by the largest _integer_ factor possible, thus getting image size without losing sharp pixel edges or aspect ratio. (It's depressing how advances in monitor technology have improved things to the point where monitors routinely refuse to do what pretty much any CRT monitor from decades past would.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Fri Jan 15 06:10:33 2016 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 13:10:33 +0100 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305133D2@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305133D2@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: <5698E1B9.1020303@radio-astronomie.com> hello this circuit http://nootropicdesign.com/ve/downloads/LM1881.pdf separate sync signals from composite video,it may help you with some level adjustement,to apply your composite video to vga screens maybe you can find commercial products on ebay but it will be more expensive .... best regards alain Nierveze Le 15/01/2016 12:39, Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de a ?crit : > I have got a HP 9000/217 machine with a standard video card. This card has a monochrome composite output (resolution is as low as about 512x400, but I might replace it with a higher resolution card). A small 9" HP monitor that I used for testing only shows me 2 or 3 bands of the image and cannot capture the signal properly. > > All I have are modern TFT monitors which usually have VGA and/or DVI inputs, no separate R-G-B or monochrome jacks. > > What is the preferred way to connect "old" composite video signals to a modern TFT monitor without losing too much sharpness? I understand that interpolation is an unavoidable problem. > > Searching the internet did not give me a clear answer. Do you have any recommendations? > > Thank you, Martin > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 07:18:53 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 13:18:53 +0000 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305133D2@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305133D2@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: > > I have got a HP 9000/217 machine with a standard video card. This card has a monochrome > composite output (resolution is as low as about 512x400, but I might replace it with a higher > resolution card). A small 9" HP monitor that I used for testing only shows me 2 or 3 bands > of the image and cannot capture the signal properly. What is the exact model number of the video card? I am assuming it's an HP98204 of some flavour. The HP98204A uses (US, RS170) TV rates and can be connected to any composite monitor that expects that. A lot of TVs (rather than monitors) in Europe can accept that and have composite inputs still, perhaps on a SCART socket. However the more normal video card in the 9000/217 (aka HP9817) is the HP98204B. This does have a composite output but at rather odd rates. There was a specal 'HP' (actually a Samsung chassis, and it shows!) monitor for this. I thinkl finding somethng that will lock to the video output of that card is going to be 'interesting' Do you have the original HP monitor? If so, what model is it? -tony From robo58 at optonline.net Fri Jan 15 08:09:37 2016 From: robo58 at optonline.net (Robo58) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 09:09:37 -0500 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) Message-ID: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> Hi Folks, I have many diskettes worth of CP/M 2.2 assembler source code and programs that I'd like to archive in the PC environment. I'm worried that my media is degrading and I want to move it before it's too late. The media is mostly 8" SD or DD, there are also some 5.25" HD diskettes too. I have the original hardware and can view the media and run the programs. I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it to the PC environment. Thanks Robo From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 15 07:50:09 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 05:50:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... Message-ID: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/94441/retro-computing I think this is actually a pretty good idea and StackExchange is a great platform. As of right now it needs 11 more people following it (and more questions). tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 15 09:09:45 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 07:09:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Robo58 wrote: > Hi Folks, > I have many diskettes worth of CP/M 2.2 assembler source code and programs > that I'd like to archive in the PC environment. I'm worried that my media > is degrading and I want to move it before it's too late. > The media is mostly 8" SD or DD, there are also some 5.25" HD diskettes too. Are the "8" SD" standard 8" SSSD? What format are the 8" DD? What format are the 5.25" HD? Are you SURE that they are HD? > I have the original hardware and can view the media and run the programs. What make and model? There are approximately 2500 mutually incompatible CP/M disk formats. > I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it to the PC environment. From abs at absd.org Fri Jan 15 09:03:02 2016 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 15:03:02 +0000 Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15 January 2016 at 13:50, geneb wrote: > > http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/94441/retro-computing > > I think this is actually a pretty good idea and StackExchange is a great platform. > > As of right now it needs 11 more people following it (and more questions). It might be good to adjust it to include more than just "micro" computers... From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 15 09:22:01 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 07:22:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, David Brownlee wrote: > On 15 January 2016 at 13:50, geneb wrote: >> >> http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/94441/retro-computing >> >> I think this is actually a pretty good idea and StackExchange is a great platform. >> >> As of right now it needs 11 more people following it (and more questions). > > It might be good to adjust it to include more than just "micro" computers... > Good idea, but it's not up to me - I didn't create the proposed SE section. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From robo58 at optonline.net Fri Jan 15 09:32:12 2016 From: robo58 at optonline.net (Robo58) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 10:32:12 -0500 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> Message-ID: <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> Hi Fred, Thanks for the reply. The 8" SD diskettes are standard IBM format (I believe 3740 physical format) 26 sectors. I believe the 8" DD follows the same 3740 physical format but has 1024 byte sectors and that they could vary as to either 8 or 9 sectors/track. Regarding the 5.25" HD diskettes. I believe they are duplicates of the 8"DD just using the smaller media. The hardware is custom so there is no unique base of users or other software to leverage. There are two different platforms, both Z80 one platform uses the Western Digital 1771 floppy controller, the second platform was newer at the time and is Z80 with WD 1791 floppy controller. Thanks Robo -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 10:10 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Robo58 wrote: > Hi Folks, > I have many diskettes worth of CP/M 2.2 assembler source code and > programs that I'd like to archive in the PC environment. I'm worried > that my media is degrading and I want to move it before it's too late. > The media is mostly 8" SD or DD, there are also some 5.25" HD diskettes too. Are the "8" SD" standard 8" SSSD? What format are the 8" DD? What format are the 5.25" HD? Are you SURE that they are HD? > I have the original hardware and can view the media and run the programs. What make and model? There are approximately 2500 mutually incompatible CP/M disk formats. > I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it to the PC environment. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 09:39:50 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 10:39:50 -0500 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> Message-ID: do you have a working 8" drive? You can attach to a PC from the 386 through to Pentium III as a "HD 5 1/4" drive. That's what I do. You need the DBIT 50/34 adapter and image an disk program. You can usually for CP/M disks just use the motherboard's built-in disk drive controller, but I also have a Catweasel if I need it for more exotic formats. CP/M disks are very readable, any format I have ever encountered on SS disks has been no problem, assuming the disk itself is ok. Here is a thread from my web site that describes the process, as I accomplished it. There is more than one way to skin this cat, there is also a link within the thread with a downloadable how-to guide from VCF East 9. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=561 Bill On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Robo58 wrote: > Hi Fred, > > Thanks for the reply. The 8" SD diskettes are standard IBM format (I > believe 3740 physical format) 26 sectors. I believe the 8" DD follows the > same 3740 physical format but has 1024 byte sectors and that they could > vary > as to either 8 or 9 sectors/track. > > Regarding the 5.25" HD diskettes. I believe they are duplicates of the > 8"DD > just using the smaller media. > > The hardware is custom so there is no unique base of users or other > software > to leverage. There are two different platforms, both Z80 one platform uses > the Western Digital 1771 floppy controller, the second platform was newer > at > the time and is Z80 with WD 1791 floppy controller. > > Thanks Robo > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred > Cisin > Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 10:10 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS > media) > > On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Robo58 wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > I have many diskettes worth of CP/M 2.2 assembler source code and > > programs that I'd like to archive in the PC environment. I'm worried > > that my media is degrading and I want to move it before it's too late. > > The media is mostly 8" SD or DD, there are also some 5.25" HD diskettes > too. > > Are the "8" SD" standard 8" SSSD? > What format are the 8" DD? > What format are the 5.25" HD? Are you SURE that they are HD? > > > I have the original hardware and can view the media and run the programs. > > What make and model? There are approximately 2500 mutually incompatible > CP/M disk formats. > > > I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it to the PC environment. > > > -- -Bill- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 11:07:22 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 09:07:22 -0800 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> Message-ID: <5699274A.6080502@sydex.com> On 01/15/2016 06:09 AM, Robo58 wrote: > I have many diskettes worth of CP/M 2.2 assembler source code and > programs that I'd like to archive in the PC environment. I'm worried > that my media is degrading and I want to move it before it's too > late. > > The media is mostly 8" SD or DD, there are also some 5.25" HD > diskettes too. > > I have the original hardware and can view the media and run the > programs. > > I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it to the PC environment I'm sure that others will give you some great suggestions on the mechanics, but I will add my own 2 cents to this by observing that if most of the diskettes are CPMUG or other "user groups", your effort may well be redundant--many of the files that were distributed via BBS have long been archived and made public (e.g. SIMTEL20). Good luck, Chuck From robo58 at optonline.net Fri Jan 15 11:14:05 2016 From: robo58 at optonline.net (Robo58) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 12:14:05 -0500 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> Message-ID: <000c01d14fb8$238d3ad0$6aa7b070$@optonline.net> Hi Bill, Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have an 8" Shugart 800/801 and one or two 5.25". I'm a little rusty on the older PC's. So when you say that 386 to PIII's could read an 8" floppy, would those PC's have SD floppy controllers? I did a quick look and the link for the Catweasel (http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/catweasel_e.htm) and the website no longer operational. Assume that I can get an old PC and connect it up how would an "image a disk" program work? Does it have knowledge of the CP/M files system and can read the directory and grab the files? Would the program also be able to write to the PC's file system to complete the archive? What "image a disk" programs would suggest? Thank you Robo -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 10:40 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) do you have a working 8" drive? You can attach to a PC from the 386 through to Pentium III as a "HD 5 1/4" drive. That's what I do. You need the DBIT 50/34 adapter and image an disk program. You can usually for CP/M disks just use the motherboard's built-in disk drive controller, but I also have a Catweasel if I need it for more exotic formats. CP/M disks are very readable, any format I have ever encountered on SS disks has been no problem, assuming the disk itself is ok. Here is a thread from my web site that describes the process, as I accomplished it. There is more than one way to skin this cat, there is also a link within the thread with a downloadable how-to guide from VCF East 9. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=561 Bill From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jan 15 11:40:54 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 11:40:54 -0600 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> Message-ID: <56992F26.1080403@pico-systems.com> On 01/15/2016 08:09 AM, Robo58 wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I have many diskettes worth of CP/M 2.2 assembler source code and programs > that I'd like to archive in the PC environment. I'm worried that my media > is degrading and I want to move it before it's too late. > > The media is mostly 8" SD or DD, there are also some 5.25" HD diskettes too. > > I have the original hardware and can view the media and run the programs. > > I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it to the PC environment. > Got a console serial port on the CP/M system? You should be able to use a program like Kermit to suck up the files. Probably log a file list, edit the file list to only have source files, and then you can get that into Kermit to make the CP/M system type out the files, and Kermit will log them to individual files. I've never done this, but I think kermit was specially designed to make this easy to do. I'm guessing a few other terminal programs have the same sort of capability to run scripts to send commands to a foreign OS and log the result. Jon From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 11:56:12 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 12:56:12 -0500 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> <000c01d14fb8$238d3ad0$6aa7b070$@optonline.net> Message-ID: <1B05CD2D79E24456860027FA8D18D536@310e2> A good place to start: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robo58" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 12:14 PM Subject: RE: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) > Hi Bill, > > Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have an 8" Shugart 800/801 and one or two 5.25". > > I'm a little rusty on the older PC's. So when you say that 386 to PIII's could read an 8" floppy, would those PC's have SD floppy controllers? > > I did a quick look and the link for the Catweasel (http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/catweasel_e.htm) and the website no longer operational. > > Assume that I can get an old PC and connect it up how would an "image a disk" program work? Does it have knowledge of the CP/M files system and can read the directory and grab the files? Would the program also be able to write to the PC's file system to complete the archive? > > What "image a disk" programs would suggest? > > Thank you > Robo > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan > Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 10:40 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) > > do you have a working 8" drive? You can attach to a PC from the 386 through to Pentium III as a "HD 5 1/4" drive. That's what I do. You need the DBIT 50/34 adapter and image an disk program. You can usually for CP/M disks just use the motherboard's built-in disk drive controller, but I also have a Catweasel if I need it for more exotic formats. CP/M disks are very readable, any format I have ever encountered on SS disks has been no problem, assuming the disk itself is ok. > > Here is a thread from my web site that describes the process, as I accomplished it. There is more than one way to skin this cat, there is also a link within the thread with a downloadable how-to guide from VCF East 9. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=561 > > Bill > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 15 12:05:47 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 10:05:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: <000c01d14fb8$238d3ad0$6aa7b070$@optonline.net> References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> <000c01d14fb8$238d3ad0$6aa7b070$@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Robo58 wrote: > I'm a little rusty on the older PC's. So when you say that 386 to > PIII's could read an 8" floppy, would those PC's have SD floppy > controllers? Some (such as 37c65 based FDCs) do, some don't. Dave Dunfield made a test program, to help identify them. If the FDC can't do FM (SD), then either you need to use a different one, or a flux transition product, such as CatWeasel. > Assume that I can get an old PC and connect it up how would an "image a > disk" program work? Does it have knowledge of the CP/M files system and > can read the directory and grab the files? Would the program also be > able to write to the PC's file system to complete the archive? No, it does not know the file system. Instead, THAT part of the process is consists of copying all of the sectors of the disk to a file. > What "image a disk" programs would suggest? ImageDisk, but others may have different preferences. My personal preference is to use a program that DOES know the file system, and transfers FILES. Such as XenoCopy (no longer available) or 22Disk. I don't think that Uniform supported any 8" or HD formats. But, those are set for specific formats (selected from a menu), and won't help for a format that doesn't have the same parameters as any that they include. STAT DSK: (run on the CP/M system) will give you some of the parameters that you need. But, if you use a disk imaging program, you may be able to find something that can work with the file system, working from the image file, or write your own. Another alternative is, of course, to do serial port transfers. I prefer XMODEM, but some folk like Kermit. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan at 757.org Fri Jan 15 12:11:25 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 13:11:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: <56980D53.7050608@oryx.us> References: <56967F53.10508@charter.net> <56980D53.7050608@oryx.us> Message-ID: > Hello Jay, > Regarding the simulated SCSI disk, hoping you can explain further. > The last time I had an IRIX based workstation on my desk was in 2007, and all > this SGI discussion has me wanting to go and hunt down a Fuel. > Curious how the simulated disk thing works. > Thank you, > Jerry My coworker has a Fuel sitting on his desk here, I'm staring at it. There is some sort of failure with mobo or power supply. He has a spare motherboard for it, but I think he said it's PSU. Prob caps, is there a known issue with them? Also, I used nfs to get to ISO data of IRIX 6.5.2x updates for my Octane and it worked fine. Flashbacks to my days as a sysad @ NASA in IRIX land, and as a huge SGI fanboy... https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image02.jpg 96proc, 64GB, 7TB, 2.something million dollars https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image15.jpg o2k, my favorite... https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image20.jpg Petabytes in the background, in 2001 or so. -- Ethan O'Toole From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 12:33:10 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 13:33:10 -0500 Subject: My last word on building computers! Message-ID: I?m not sure to what degree one can/wish to build there own car. If one puts their mind to it; then anything is possible. I?m sure this applies only to die-hard builders and not representative of the ?average? guy/gal. One, and I may be stereotyping here, does not have the time to build much of anything is this hurried world we inhabit. I know this website caters to the experimenter/hobbyist in the computing world but I wonder how many of us have the time/inclination to build an old machine. I recently tried to revive my Coleco ADAM but couldn?t find old capacitors/transformers ? maybe in America they?re available! (I could run an emulator on my PC/Mac but to what end? It?s definitely not the same as running the real thing is it?) As for new machines I guess there are builders /programmers of Raspberry Pi?s but they have a limited use for power users and for ?old? computer aficionados of classic computing era! Do young people want to do this? They may be computer savvy but I don?t think too many have an interest in building anything, particularly from the vintage era. My friend?s grandson, he?s 7, told me the computer is a tool for getting ahead not for looking back. Yikes! Happy computing! Murray :) From isking at uw.edu Fri Jan 15 12:56:46 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 10:56:46 -0800 Subject: My last word on building computers! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A number of years ago, I read an interesting book titled "Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding". In the front matter, the author decried the decrease in DIY, whether that was fixing your own car or (his topic) building your own boat. For the author, it was a clear sign of the intellectual apocalypse. When I was an undergrad, my roommate built his own guitar, performing all the bending, shaping and glueing. It took a long time. He could easily have purchased one with the money he would have earned in the same hours - at minimum wage. So I think this is in fact a broad theme that touches on values such as independence and pride in one's skills and abilities - and for some, curiosity (*can* I do this thing or that?). Individuality is another value I see expressed (less and less) in the motorcycle community - time was when the phrase "stock Harley" was an oxymoron. (And don't get me started about the stupid phrase, "factory custom".) And smack that kid! :-) On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Murray McCullough < c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote: > I?m not sure to what degree one can/wish to build there own car. If > one puts their mind to it; then anything is possible. I?m sure this > applies only to die-hard builders and not representative of the > ?average? guy/gal. One, and I may be stereotyping here, does not have > the time to build much of anything is this hurried world we inhabit. I > know this website caters to the experimenter/hobbyist in the computing > world but I wonder how many of us have the time/inclination to build > an old machine. I recently tried to revive my Coleco ADAM but couldn?t > find old capacitors/transformers ? maybe in America they?re available! > (I could run an emulator on my PC/Mac but to what end? It?s definitely > not the same as running the real thing is it?) As for new machines I > guess there are builders /programmers of Raspberry Pi?s but they have > a limited use for power users and for ?old? computer aficionados of > classic computing era! Do young people want to do this? They may be > computer savvy but I don?t think too many have an interest in building > anything, particularly from the vintage era. My friend?s grandson, > he?s 7, told me the computer is a tool for getting ahead not for > looking back. Yikes! > > Happy computing! > > Murray :) > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From jrr at flippers.com Fri Jan 15 13:01:27 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 11:01:27 -0800 Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <5696F1CD.6030107@sydex.com> References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <3DF16E6E-9400-4C90-899A-3E457940A092@shiresoft.com> <5696F1CD.6030107@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56994207.3060207@flippers.com> On 01/13/2016 4:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/13/2016 03:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> In the old days, the shitty kit TVs would have continuous tuners. > > In prewar days, it seems that there more than a couple of offerings. > Didn't Meissner(they of the "Signal Shifter" VFO) offer a kit TV in > the 30s/early 40s? I do remember the continuous tuners, though--two > bands--and one could even tune Channel 1. > > A large number of Heathkit color TVs were built by vets using funding > from the GI bill. Those were Heath's good days... > > --Chuck > > > > I built one of the Heathkit colour TVs in time to watch the moon landings. I was 18 and built in one day (and night) and it worked from the first turn on. Lasted over twenty years as the main house set only needing service every few years until the picture tube gave out finally. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 15 13:04:54 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 14:04:54 -0500 Subject: My last word on building computers! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jan 15, 2016, at 1:56 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > > A number of years ago, I read an interesting book titled "Buehler's > Backyard Boatbuilding". In the front matter, the author decried the > decrease in DIY, whether that was fixing your own car or (his topic) > building your own boat. For the author, it was a clear sign of the > intellectual apocalypse. > > When I was an undergrad, my roommate built his own guitar, performing all > the bending, shaping and glueing. It took a long time. He could easily > have purchased one with the money he would have earned in the same hours - > at minimum wage. > > So I think this is in fact a broad theme that touches on values such as > independence and pride in one's skills and abilities - and for some, > curiosity (*can* I do this thing or that?). Individuality is another value > I see expressed (less and less) in the motorcycle community - time was when > the phrase "stock Harley" was an oxymoron. (And don't get me started about > the stupid phrase, "factory custom".) We tinker with old computers because it is fun, educational, challenging ... not because they are the best tool to solve today's computation tasks. Similarly, others tinker with electronics, do metalworking in their basement, build guns from scratch -- for very similar reasons. Yes, you can buy a guitar rather than build one. That assumes you can earn enough spare cash to afford one. There's a very famous set of books about how to build metalworking machinery (lathe, mill, etc.) from scrap aluminum, cast in your back yard using charcoal for heat. The author, according to his comments in the book, did this mostly because he didn't have enough money to spare on already-built machines. A similar story is in "South Sea Vagabonds" whose author lost his job, so he used the time to build an oceangoing sailboat in his parent's front yard, from driftwood and scrap metal. For a lot of people it's not money but the challenge of making your own. Sometimes it's the challenge of solving a problem in an odd way. For example, building a boat of concrete (or a lathe). Or, as one of my father's classmates did, building a working bassoon by telescoping a roll of kraft paper adhesive tape. paul From mark at markesystems.com Fri Jan 15 13:16:01 2016 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 11:16:01 -0800 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <545DFF559B61444184A02FE47B9ACCD5@Daedalus> From: Jon Elson > Got a console serial port on the CP/M system? You should be > able to use a program like Kermit to suck up the files. Something like this was going to be my suggestion, too. The original request was to archive the source files, not the disks themselves. Virtually every modem-type program (MODEM7, for example) has at least XModem, and of course there are tons of options for the PC end (PuTTY seems to be a popular choice). Hopefully there's some serial port in the system, even if it's not the console. And you do remember how to write 8080 code and make CP/M calls, right? Worst case, since it's "Source" you're trying to archive, would be to write a simple program that just reads a file and blurts it out the serial port, with no handshaking at all. Running a serial capture on the PC would probably have very few, if any, errors. ~~ Mark Moulding From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 13:34:39 2016 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 14:34:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: <000c01d14fb8$238d3ad0$6aa7b070$@optonline.net> References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> <000c01d14fb8$238d3ad0$6aa7b070$@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Robo58 wrote: > Assume that I can get an old PC and connect it up how would an "image a > disk" program work? Does it have knowledge of the CP/M files system and > can read the directory and grab the files? Would the program also be > able to write to the PC's file system to complete the archive? The simplest approach (as suggested by Fred) would be to use 22Disk to simply read files out of the CP/M filesystem. If you are dealing with a non-standard format that is not in the default database, you would need to purchase a registered copy that has tools for building new definitions. Alternately, you can use ImageDisk to capture an IMD file, then convert to a sector image with the accompanying IMDU utility. From there, use 'cpmtools' under Linux to read out the files. It is relatively straightforward to define new disk formats for cpmtools, although you will certainly have some experimentation ahead of you. -- From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 15 13:52:32 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 20:52:32 +0100 Subject: USO (Unidentified System Unit) In-Reply-To: <5693EA76.9070408@btinternet.com> References: <20160110173106.AAA2B18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5693E5A0.3040702@charter.net> <5693EA76.9070408@btinternet.com> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rod Smallwood Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 6:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: USO (Unidentified System Unit) On 11/01/2016 17:33, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I am pretty sure it is DEC made. Another manufacturer would surely > have > sticked labeling from themselves on it ;-) Viewed from the rear side > (looking at the module handles), the right side panel has no id labeling. > The left side panel might have one, but that side is > completely covered by a H??? power supply (forgot to write down the H > number). I will check next Saturday. > > Thanks, - Henk > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Jay Jaeger Sent: Monday, > January 11, 2016 6:25 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: USO > (Unidentified System Unit) > > If it is DEC, and they haven't fallen off, then on the side panels > on one side or the other of the rows connectors there may be some > identification? > > JRJ > > On 1/10/2016 11:31 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> From: Henk Gooijen >> >>> I could not find the M5950 nor M3020 in any module list. >> >> The M3020 (and M1131) are variants of the M302 (and M113, >> respectively), so I don't think those are much of a clue. The M5950 >> I couldn't find anything about at all, but the M595 is a current >> mode converter for the DF11 - which I can't find much about, >> although it's in the '73-'74 Peripheral Handbook - but that looks >> distinctly like a possibility, from the pictures there. >> >> Noel >> DEC had a product line called Components Group. You could buy almost any DEC part and build what ever you wanted with it. There was also CSS or Computer Special Systems. They did bespoke systems and of course used standard parts where they could. Rod --------- I know. I have a few CSS goodies and CSS documentation. I will go to my "Hall of Famous Iron" tomorrow and try to have a better look at that small rack-mounted backplane. - Henk From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 15 13:59:45 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 11:59:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> <000c01d14fb8$238d3ad0$6aa7b070$@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Steven Hirsch wrote: > The simplest approach (as suggested by Fred) would be to use 22Disk to simply > read files out of the CP/M filesystem. If you are dealing with a > non-standard format that is not in the default database, you would need to > purchase a registered copy that has tools for building new definitions. > Alternately, you can use ImageDisk to capture an IMD file, then convert to a > sector image with the accompanying IMDU utility. From there, use 'cpmtools' > under Linux to read out the files. It is relatively straightforward to define > new disk formats for cpmtools, although you will certainly have some > experimentation ahead of you. Start with STAT DSK: on the CP/M machine That will give you some of what you need. Examining sector contents is needed to determine sector sequence, interleave, skew, and "side pattern". Then, of course, there are surprisingly many other oddball weirdities, such as inverted bits, altered/non-standard/invalid sector headers, etc. But, if the machine is still functional, you can transfer everything to SSSD "CP/M Standard", which is widely supported. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 15 15:04:30 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 13:04:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Building a PC - then & now In-Reply-To: <56994207.3060207@flippers.com> References: <5696D25C.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <3DF16E6E-9400-4C90-899A-3E457940A092@shiresoft.com> <5696F1CD.6030107@sydex.com> <56994207.3060207@flippers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, John Robertson wrote: > I built one of the Heathkit colour TVs in time to watch the moon landings. I > was 18 and built in one day (and night) and it worked from the first turn on. > Lasted over twenty years as the main house set only needing service every few > years until the picture tube gave out finally. > If you're astronomically bored, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P1HMJOV0qA&list=PLEENdRyj_RZb7hgF_88AoF1yQEPvTqkiC I finished the build over the holiday break. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mazzinia at tin.it Fri Jan 15 15:26:14 2016 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 22:26:14 +0100 Subject: R: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: <56967F53.10508@charter.net> <56980D53.7050608@oryx.us> Message-ID: <00a901d14fdb$5d7cb0e0$187612a0$@tin.it> Sadly yes, there's a known issue with psu in fuels. I have one that went kaboom after 20 minutes and lies waiting for a psu since months (and will lie that way, I guess. I'm looking at it in a sad way near daily...). Long story short, Fuel psu were made by 3 different brands, and each of them had ... longevity issues... in what we could say being revision 1 to 3. >From 4 upward (and if I'm mistaken , at worst was from 3 upward) they tend to be resistant. Exploding issues aside, those psu are not standard and have a chip doing some mumbo jumbo inside (all lines are monitored, by example). That chip can .. erase itself... ( in the upper mentioned revisions, for sure ). There are no known dumps of the chip firmware. -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di ethan at 757.org Inviato: venerd? 15 gennaio 2016 19:11 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org Oggetto: Re: For you SGI fans... > Hello Jay, > Regarding the simulated SCSI disk, hoping you can explain further. > The last time I had an IRIX based workstation on my desk was in 2007, > and all this SGI discussion has me wanting to go and hunt down a Fuel. > Curious how the simulated disk thing works. > Thank you, > Jerry My coworker has a Fuel sitting on his desk here, I'm staring at it. There is some sort of failure with mobo or power supply. He has a spare motherboard for it, but I think he said it's PSU. Prob caps, is there a known issue with them? Also, I used nfs to get to ISO data of IRIX 6.5.2x updates for my Octane and it worked fine. Flashbacks to my days as a sysad @ NASA in IRIX land, and as a huge SGI fanboy... https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image02.jpg 96proc, 64GB, 7TB, 2.something million dollars https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image15.jpg o2k, my favorite... https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image20.jpg Petabytes in the background, in 2001 or so. -- Ethan O'Toole From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 16:00:12 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 15:00:12 -0700 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2016 8:32 AM, "Robo58" wrote: > The 8" SD diskettes are standard IBM format (I > believe 3740 physical format) 26 sectors. Almost all SD 8 inch use that physical format, though there are some oddball formats like OSI. Similarly almost all 8 inch SD CP/M disks use the same logical (filesystem) format, because that was THE standard for CP/M interchamge. > I believe the 8" DD follows the > same 3740 physical format 3740 is specifically SD. By definition, DD *must* be a different physical format. In most cases, DD uses IBM System/34 format, though as with SD there are some oddballs. The big problem is that there is no standard for CP/M logical format on DD (or a zillion "standards", depending on your definition). Usually when I've been faced with an unknown CP/M format, I've figured it out "by hand" using a sector editor, because back then I didn't have any of the fancy interchange programs that were sold. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 16:19:23 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 17:19:23 -0500 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> Message-ID: CP/M disks, - if they're soft sectored - are just about the easiest non PC DOS format to image assuming you have the right set up. It takes me 20 seconds per disk with Dunfield's utility. I use a DBIT 50/34 pin adapter to convert a the 8" 50pin disk cable to a 34-pin 5 1/4" cable. With this adapter- it's super fast. You want a DD 8" drive like the 850, but if you created the disks on an 801 you should be able to use it to image the disks to the modern PC. DBIT: Source for 8" drive adapter to work on a newer drive controller: http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html If you want, send the disks to me as I have everything set up here. Contact me directly if you need assistance. Every vintage computerian ideally should have some sort of disk imaging station set up but if you don't I or others here with such systems are probably happy to help. -- -Bill- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jan 15 16:49:26 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 14:49:26 -0800 Subject: My last word on building computers! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-Jan-15, at 10:33 AM, Murray McCullough wrote: > ... > My friend?s grandson, > he?s 7, told me the computer is a tool for getting ahead not for > looking back. Yikes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF7EpEnglgk "Where's the mouse?" "Error? This computer IS an error" "That was, like, the peak of technology. Now it seems, um . . kind of worthless" From other at oryx.us Fri Jan 15 16:52:56 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:52:56 -0600 Subject: SGI Fuel P/S ::WAS:::::::Re: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: <00a901d14fdb$5d7cb0e0$187612a0$@tin.it> References: <56967F53.10508@charter.net> <56980D53.7050608@oryx.us> <00a901d14fdb$5d7cb0e0$187612a0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <56997848.6070203@oryx.us> Thanks for the comments. All this SGI discussion has me wanting to go out and hunt down a Fuel even more. It sounds like I need to focus on finding one with a rev-4 or better power supply. Its been some time since I have personally done any soldering. There's got to be some place, for a fee, that knows about and can repair SGI power supplies. Jerry On 01/15/16 03:26 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > Sadly yes, there's a known issue with psu in fuels. I have one that went > kaboom after 20 minutes and lies waiting for a psu since months (and will > lie that way, I guess. I'm looking at it in a sad way near daily...). > > Long story short, Fuel psu were made by 3 different brands, and each of them > had ... longevity issues... in what we could say being revision 1 to 3. >>From 4 upward (and if I'm mistaken , at worst was from 3 upward) they tend > to be resistant. > > Exploding issues aside, those psu are not standard and have a chip doing > some mumbo jumbo inside (all lines are monitored, by example). That chip can > .. erase itself... ( in the upper mentioned revisions, for sure ). There are > no known dumps of the chip firmware. > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 16:56:09 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 14:56:09 -0800 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> Message-ID: <56997909.6030804@sydex.com> On 01/15/2016 02:00 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Jan 15, 2016 8:32 AM, "Robo58" wrote: >> The 8" SD diskettes are standard IBM format (I believe 3740 >> physical format) 26 sectors. > > Almost all SD 8 inch use that physical format, though there are some > oddball formats like OSI. > > Similarly almost all 8 inch SD CP/M disks use the same logical > (filesystem) format, because that was THE standard for CP/M > interchamge. I attribute that to the lack of user low-level formatting software. In general, they do follow the A1 format, but there were a couple, such as the HP 125 to ruin your day. Once you migrate to MFM, standard formats simply don't exist. Even IBM had several different MFM 8" formats. No one's touched on hard-sector formats, which could really get bizarre, such as the Zilog MCZ format with 132-byte sectors. Or clever things like RX02 and "weird MFM" or various GCR schemes (e.g. Future Data). Fortunately, few hobbyists run into those. --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Fri Jan 15 16:58:31 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 14:58:31 -0800 Subject: SGI Fuel P/S ::WAS:::::::Re: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: <56997848.6070203@oryx.us> References: <56967F53.10508@charter.net> <56980D53.7050608@oryx.us> <00a901d14fdb$5d7cb0e0$187612a0$@tin.it> <56997848.6070203@oryx.us> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Thanks for the comments. > > All this SGI discussion has me wanting to go out and hunt down a Fuel even > more. > > It sounds like I need to focus on finding one with a rev-4 or better power > supply. > > Its been some time since I have personally done any soldering. > > There's got to be some place, for a fee, that knows about and can repair > SGI power supplies. > > Jerry > > > That's it - I gotta fire up my Octane this weekend. And dig into that treasure trove of ISOs.... -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From robo58 at optonline.net Fri Jan 15 17:06:03 2016 From: robo58 at optonline.net (Robo58) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 18:06:03 -0500 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> Message-ID: <000001d14fe9$4e7e7660$eb7b6320$@optonline.net> Hi Folks, Thank you all for the suggestions and feedback. I appreciate your help clearing my cobwebs. Let me answer a few of the questions that were asked. Both CP/M systems have serial ports so I'm good there. I likely have 50 pin to 34 pin floppy conversion cables as over time we moved away from the 8" drives to 5.25" and then 3.5" I used PuTTy a long time ago but it should come right back to me. If I remember it correctly it has a large screen buffer that I can paste to the clip board and then save the resulting source code. Does PuTTy have any logging functions that would put whatever goes to the screen into a disk file? That way I could "Type" source file after source file and then separate them later on the PC. Now that you've given me a way to get my source, how would you suggest getting binaries? I do remember the Intel checksum format, and it is all ascii so if I could convert the binaries to that format I could capture them the same way as the source files. Was/is there a way to convert "Com" files to the Intel checksum format on CP/M 2.2 systems ? Thanks Robo From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 17:24:06 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 15:24:06 -0800 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: <000001d14fe9$4e7e7660$eb7b6320$@optonline.net> References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> <000001d14fe9$4e7e7660$eb7b6320$@optonline.net> Message-ID: <56997F96.70103@sydex.com> On 01/15/2016 03:06 PM, Robo58 wrote: > Was/is there a way to convert "Com" files to the Intel checksum > format on CP/M 2.2 systems ? Yes, you want the "GENHEX" utility. It was a standard part of MP/M and will run on CP/M, but it's probably floating around on the SIG/M archive as well. Gaby's site (z80.de) certainly has a copy of MP/M. If you can't find it, shoot me a note and I'll email you a copy. --Chuck From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 10:57:34 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:57:34 -0800 Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 7:22 AM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, David Brownlee wrote: > > On 15 January 2016 at 13:50, geneb wrote: >> >>> >>> http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/94441/retro-computing >>> >>> I think this is actually a pretty good idea and StackExchange is a great >>> platform. >>> >>> As of right now it needs 11 more people following it (and more >>> questions). >>> >> >> It might be good to adjust it to include more than just "micro" >> computers... >> >> Good idea, but it's not up to me - I didn't create the proposed SE > section. :) > > Interesting. But it is a bit of a mystery to me. I went to the site, created an account, logged in, "followed" the retro-computing discussion, searched in vain for the "discuss proposed discussion" button, tried the general 'ask a question' tab, but it seems to believe that I am not logged in. I happily participate in a retro-computing discussions, but my knowledge base is mainframe computing, so between the alienation in the discussion definition, and the site's apparent inability to let me discuss that alienation with the creators, it looks like Area51 is non-starter for me. -- Charles > From f.heite at hccnet.nl Fri Jan 15 15:21:24 2016 From: f.heite at hccnet.nl (Freek Heite) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 22:21:24 +0100 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS References: Message-ID: <3CCDD9CEEA7E428290C1DCB3F764C8FE@centrino> >>> From: Robo58 >>> >>> I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it to the PC environment. IF your CP/M machine has a serial interface, I would connect it to a serial interface on your PC. Then use programs/protocols like kermit/xmodem/ymodem/zmodem/procomm/telix/hyperterminal to copy your CP/M files to your PC. Which one to use, depends on what software you have available on your CP/M system. On the PC side, you'll probably always be able to find a corresponding program. Have fun, Freek. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 16:35:37 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 22:35:37 -0000 Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007801d14fe5$0e8271f0$2b8755d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles > Anthony > Sent: 15 January 2016 16:58 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... > > On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 7:22 AM, geneb wrote: > > > On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, David Brownlee wrote: > > > > On 15 January 2016 at 13:50, geneb wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/94441/retro-computing > >>> > >>> I think this is actually a pretty good idea and StackExchange is a > >>> great platform. > >>> > >>> As of right now it needs 11 more people following it (and more > >>> questions). > >>> > >> > >> It might be good to adjust it to include more than just "micro" > >> computers... > >> > >> Good idea, but it's not up to me - I didn't create the proposed SE > > section. :) > > > > > Interesting. But it is a bit of a mystery to me. I went to the site, created an > account, logged in, "followed" the retro-computing discussion, searched in > vain for the "discuss proposed discussion" button, tried the general 'ask a > question' tab, but it seems to believe that I am not logged in. > > I happily participate in a retro-computing discussions, but my knowledge > base is mainframe computing, so between the alienation in the discussion > definition, and the site's apparent inability to let me discuss that alienation > with the creators, it looks like Area51 is non-starter for me. > > -- Charles > > Whats wrong with the existing Vintage Computing Forums. To me its yet another place to have to go and look and so disappating expertise in many other places.. Dave From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 17:29:00 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 15:29:00 -0800 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: <000001d14fe9$4e7e7660$eb7b6320$@optonline.net> References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> <000001d14fe9$4e7e7660$eb7b6320$@optonline.net> Message-ID: <569980BC.7030106@sydex.com> Found a copy of GENHEX on bitsavers here: ftp://ftp.uk.freesbie.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG/QX10/extracted/QX10.06/GENHEX.CPM Just change the extension to .COM and you're good. --Chuck From pdaguytom at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 17:50:45 2016 From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom .) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 17:50:45 -0600 Subject: SGI Fuel P/S ::WAS:::::::Re: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: <56997848.6070203@oryx.us> References: <56967F53.10508@charter.net> <56980D53.7050608@oryx.us> <00a901d14fdb$5d7cb0e0$187612a0$@tin.it> <56997848.6070203@oryx.us> Message-ID: The Fuel PS can be swapped for its PC counter part. Wonder over to Nekochan.net and search for Fuel Power supply, there is a lot of info on this. The p1 connector has to be resorted and the replacement PS has to have the fan monitoring and that signal has to be adjusted to what L1 expects. The motherboard has several environment monitoring ICs that, on the early revisions, go bad and keeps the computer from starting. These ICs are/were available for the brave hearted to attempt the repair. The later motherboards apparently don't suffer from the enviro monitoring failures as often. Nekochan is a great resource, it was invaluable for me when I was building my Fuel. Tom On Friday, January 15, 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Thanks for the comments. > > All this SGI discussion has me wanting to go out and hunt down a Fuel even > more. > > It sounds like I need to focus on finding one with a rev-4 or better power > supply. > > Its been some time since I have personally done any soldering. > > There's got to be some place, for a fee, that knows about and can repair > SGI power supplies. > > Jerry > > > On 01/15/16 03:26 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > >> Sadly yes, there's a known issue with psu in fuels. I have one that went >> kaboom after 20 minutes and lies waiting for a psu since months (and will >> lie that way, I guess. I'm looking at it in a sad way near daily...). >> >> Long story short, Fuel psu were made by 3 different brands, and each of >> them >> had ... longevity issues... in what we could say being revision 1 to 3. >> >>> From 4 upward (and if I'm mistaken , at worst was from 3 upward) they >>> tend >>> >> to be resistant. >> >> Exploding issues aside, those psu are not standard and have a chip doing >> some mumbo jumbo inside (all lines are monitored, by example). That chip >> can >> .. erase itself... ( in the upper mentioned revisions, for sure ). There >> are >> no known dumps of the chip firmware. >> >> From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 18:12:41 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:12:41 -0800 Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... In-Reply-To: <007801d14fe5$0e8271f0$2b8755d0$@gmail.com> References: <007801d14fe5$0e8271f0$2b8755d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56998AF9.4080402@sydex.com> Ah, old eyes! I originally read the title of the thread as "Retrocomputing on Stock Excahange". So, does anyone collect Bunker-Ramo gear here? Just curious, Chuck From robo58 at optonline.net Fri Jan 15 18:16:02 2016 From: robo58 at optonline.net (Robo58) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 19:16:02 -0500 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: <569980BC.7030106@sydex.com> References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> <000001d14fe9$4e7e7660$eb7b6320$@optonline.net> <569980BC.7030106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000b01d14ff3$1543ff00$3fcbfd00$@optonline.net> Hi Chuck, Thanks for the find. I just downloaded it. I'll try it next week. Thank you "All" for the help. You've covered all the bases for me :-) Robo -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 6:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) Found a copy of GENHEX on bitsavers here: ftp://ftp.uk.freesbie.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG/QX10/extracted/QX10.06/GENHEX.CPM Just change the extension to .COM and you're good. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jan 15 18:34:37 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:34:37 -0800 Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... In-Reply-To: <56998AF9.4080402@sydex.com> References: <007801d14fe5$0e8271f0$2b8755d0$@gmail.com> <56998AF9.4080402@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5C3F422D-96C7-4D36-9D88-E3950562C8C3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Jan-15, at 4:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Ah, old eyes! > > I originally read the title of the thread as "Retrocomputing on Stock Excahange". > > So, does anyone collect Bunker-Ramo gear here? > > Just curious, > Chuck Well, collecting Bunker-Ramo stuff as an objective would be overstating it, but I have a 1960s Bunker-Ramo modem (Bell 202, half-duplex, 1200bps, discrete transistor, about the size of two toasters). Not much to do with it, as there is (or I have) nothing else to talk to it. I'm guessing: are you mentioning BR here in relation to stock exchanges - were they a major supplier for stock exchange data services? From isking at uw.edu Fri Jan 15 18:53:11 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:53:11 -0800 Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... In-Reply-To: <5C3F422D-96C7-4D36-9D88-E3950562C8C3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <007801d14fe5$0e8271f0$2b8755d0$@gmail.com> <56998AF9.4080402@sydex.com> <5C3F422D-96C7-4D36-9D88-E3950562C8C3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > On 2016-Jan-15, at 4:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Ah, old eyes! > > > > I originally read the title of the thread as "Retrocomputing on Stock > Excahange". > > > > So, does anyone collect Bunker-Ramo gear here? > > > > Just curious, > > Chuck > > > Well, collecting Bunker-Ramo stuff as an objective would be overstating > it, but I have a 1960s Bunker-Ramo modem (Bell 202, half-duplex, 1200bps, > discrete transistor, about the size of two toasters). Not much to do with > it, as there is (or I have) nothing else to talk to it. > > I'm guessing: are you mentioning BR here in relation to stock exchanges - > were they a major supplier for stock exchange data services? > > Likewise, not a conscious collection but I do have a BR-2412. It's a pretty interesting machine, based on the Nuclear Data 812. It lights up, but doesn't respond to much. I really want to dig into it - soon, soon. I even have some sample code for it, courtesy of the US Government! I also have the peripheral interface unit, but I have NO data on that. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 18:58:10 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:58:10 -0800 Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... In-Reply-To: <5C3F422D-96C7-4D36-9D88-E3950562C8C3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <007801d14fe5$0e8271f0$2b8755d0$@gmail.com> <56998AF9.4080402@sydex.com> <5C3F422D-96C7-4D36-9D88-E3950562C8C3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <569995A2.8050301@sydex.com> On 01/15/2016 04:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I'm guessing: are you mentioning BR here in relation to stock > exchanges - were they a major supplier for stock exchange data > services? Oh yes--look up "Telequote". I think that CHM has a few bits as well. A lot of caselaw was tied up in Telequote, but by the early 70s, nearly every stockbroker had a TQ terminal on his desk. BR was one of the first companies I bought stock in--the future was very clear to me at the time. I think most of the server gear for Telequote was IBM S/360 stuff, but I'm not certain my memory is accurate. Having a Telequote terminal would be akin to having a SABRE airline reservation terminal from the 60s. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 19:57:09 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 20:57:09 -0500 Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... In-Reply-To: <569995A2.8050301@sydex.com> References: <007801d14fe5$0e8271f0$2b8755d0$@gmail.com> <56998AF9.4080402@sydex.com> <5C3F422D-96C7-4D36-9D88-E3950562C8C3@cs.ubc.ca> <569995A2.8050301@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2016 7:58 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > On 01/15/2016 04:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> I'm guessing: are you mentioning BR here in relation to stock >> exchanges - were they a major supplier for stock exchange data >> services? > > > Oh yes--look up "Telequote". I think that CHM has a few bits as well. > > A lot of caselaw was tied up in Telequote, but by the early 70s, nearly every stockbroker had a TQ terminal on his desk. BR was one of the first companies I bought stock in--the future was very clear to me at the time. > > I think most of the server gear for Telequote was IBM S/360 stuff, but I'm not certain my memory is accurate. > > Having a Telequote terminal would be akin to having a SABRE airline reservation terminal from the 60s. > > --Chuck > > > > I have a stash of BR docs, for various systems from 1960s mostly. BR is not mentioned very often. Bill From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jan 15 19:59:35 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 19:59:35 -0600 Subject: My last word on building computers! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5699A407.9060208@pico-systems.com> On 01/15/2016 12:33 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > I?m not sure to what degree one can/wish to build there own car. If > one puts their mind to it; then anything is possible. I?m sure this > applies only to die-hard builders and not representative of the > ?average? guy/gal. A guy in France built a 1/3 scale Ferarri roadster. He made EVERYTHING himself. Dashboard instruments, tires, ignition coils and spark plugs, and on and on. I saw it at the NAMES show in 2004, I think. Totally awesome. And, it took him 12 years! Jon From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Jan 15 20:11:04 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 02:11:04 +0000 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: <000001d14fe9$4e7e7660$eb7b6320$@optonline.net> References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> <000001d14fe9$4e7e7660$eb7b6320$@optonline.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC8FE63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Robo58 Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 3:06 PM > Does PuTTy have any logging functions that would put whatever goes to the > screen into a disk file? That way I could "Type" source file after source > file and then separate them later on the PC. Yes. In the configuration box that comes up when you start PuTTY, there is a sub-item under Session for Logging. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jan 15 21:36:49 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 19:36:49 -0800 Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... In-Reply-To: <569995A2.8050301@sydex.com> References: <007801d14fe5$0e8271f0$2b8755d0$@gmail.com> <56998AF9.4080402@sydex.com> <5C3F422D-96C7-4D36-9D88-E3950562C8C3@cs.ubc.ca> <569995A2.8050301@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5E68C4D6-01D9-4176-92C9-2C9FD1F70379@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Jan-15, at 4:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/15/2016 04:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> I'm guessing: are you mentioning BR here in relation to stock >> exchanges - were they a major supplier for stock exchange data >> services? > > Oh yes--look up "Telequote". I think that CHM has a few bits as well. > > A lot of caselaw was tied up in Telequote, but by the early 70s, nearly every stockbroker had a TQ terminal on his desk. BR was one of the first companies I bought stock in--the future was very clear to me at the time. > > I think most of the server gear for Telequote was IBM S/360 stuff, but I'm not certain my memory is accurate. > > Having a Telequote terminal would be akin to having a SABRE airline reservation terminal from the 60s. In Italy even: http://www.ebay.it/itm/Vintage-Bunker-Ramo-Corp-Telequote-III-Display-Station-Assembly-549211-Manual-/161829917688 I wonder if my modem may have been part of a Telequote installation. From robo58 at optonline.net Fri Jan 15 21:36:51 2016 From: robo58 at optonline.net (Robo58) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 22:36:51 -0500 Subject: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC8FE63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <000601d14f9e$5e829be0$1b87d3a0$@optonline.net> <001801d14fa9$e794a1c0$b6bde540$@optonline.net> <000001d14fe9$4e7e7660$eb7b6320$@optonline.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC8FE63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <000601d1500f$234b1630$69e14290$@optonline.net> Hi Rich, Thanks. I look for it. Robo -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 9:11 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media) From: Robo58 Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 3:06 PM > Does PuTTy have any logging functions that would put whatever goes to > the screen into a disk file? That way I could "Type" source file > after source file and then separate them later on the PC. Yes. In the configuration box that comes up when you start PuTTY, there is a sub-item under Session for Logging. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 15 21:44:47 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 20:44:47 -0700 Subject: My last word on building computers! In-Reply-To: <5699A407.9060208@pico-systems.com> References: <5699A407.9060208@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5699BCAF.7040307@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/15/2016 6:59 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > A guy in France built a 1/3 scale Ferarri roadster. He made EVERYTHING > himself. Dashboard instruments, tires, ignition coils and spark plugs, > and on and on. I saw it at the NAMES show in 2004, I think. Totally > awesome. And, it took him 12 years! Smaller cars well never sell. :-) Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 22:23:01 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 20:23:01 -0800 Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... In-Reply-To: <5E68C4D6-01D9-4176-92C9-2C9FD1F70379@cs.ubc.ca> References: <007801d14fe5$0e8271f0$2b8755d0$@gmail.com> <56998AF9.4080402@sydex.com> <5C3F422D-96C7-4D36-9D88-E3950562C8C3@cs.ubc.ca> <569995A2.8050301@sydex.com> <5E68C4D6-01D9-4176-92C9-2C9FD1F70379@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5699C5A5.8030808@sydex.com> On 01/15/2016 07:36 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > In Italy even: > http://www.ebay.it/itm/Vintage-Bunker-Ramo-Corp-Telequote-III-Display-Station-Assembly-549211-Manual-/161829917688 > > I wonder if my modem may have been part of a Telequote > installation. There wasn't a whole lot in the display units--mostly CRT electronics and some stuff for the buttons. There was a control unit with the smarts. Typically a brokerage would employ a leased line to drive these things. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 15 23:25:58 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 21:25:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: My last word on building computers! In-Reply-To: <5699BCAF.7040307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5699A407.9060208@pico-systems.com> <5699BCAF.7040307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >> A guy in France built a 1/3 scale Ferarri roadster. He made EVERYTHING >> himself. Dashboard instruments, tires, ignition coils and spark plugs, >> and on and on. I saw it at the NAMES show in 2004, I think. Totally >> awesome. And, it took him 12 years! On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, ben wrote: > Smaller cars well never sell. :-) That's why they never made another one. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jan 15 23:56:24 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 23:56:24 -0600 Subject: My last word on building computers! In-Reply-To: <5699BCAF.7040307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5699A407.9060208@pico-systems.com> <5699BCAF.7040307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5699DB88.3090602@pico-systems.com> On 01/15/2016 09:44 PM, ben wrote: > On 1/15/2016 6:59 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> A guy in France built a 1/3 scale Ferarri roadster. He >> made EVERYTHING >> himself. Dashboard instruments, tires, ignition coils >> and spark plugs, >> and on and on. I saw it at the NAMES show in 2004, I >> think. Totally >> awesome. And, it took him 12 years! > > Smaller cars well never sell. :-) Right, he claims to have it on his mantelpiece! (Must have a really big mantel!) For the effort he went through, he could have built a full-size car and driven it! While I can appreciate these incredible models, I don't quite "GET" the model building mania. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jan 15 23:58:24 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 23:58:24 -0600 Subject: My last word on building computers! In-Reply-To: References: <5699A407.9060208@pico-systems.com> <5699BCAF.7040307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5699DC00.3090209@pico-systems.com> On 01/15/2016 11:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> A guy in France built a 1/3 scale Ferarri roadster. He >>> made EVERYTHING >>> himself. Dashboard instruments, tires, ignition coils >>> and spark plugs, >>> and on and on. I saw it at the NAMES show in 2004, I >>> think. Totally >>> awesome. And, it took him 12 years! > > On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, ben wrote: >> Smaller cars well never sell. :-) > > That's why they never made another one. > > > > Oh, and it is not a static model. The engine runs (spewing clouds of run-in oil and making a HUGE noise. If you prop up the rear end, you can go through the gears and spin the tires. Jon From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jan 16 00:25:31 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 22:25:31 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 w/ 2 RLxx drives for free pickup in San Antonio, TX Message-ID: <32806E20-BEB3-4E46-8D0B-D365FBA186CE@nf6x.net> I got this comment on my blog today: http://www.nf6x.net/2013/11/my-new-dec-pdp-1144-project/#comment-248370 "I have a 11/44. 2xrl drives. And misc extras. It is going in the dump in 2 weeks? do you know anyone who wants it FREE? schematics and rsx 11 mnuals and a few unix things? helotianmoon at gmail.com must pick up san antonio texas pick up by 12-24-2016" I would pick it up myself if I was local. Somebody grab it, please! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Jan 16 01:15:34 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 01:15:34 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/44 w/ 2 RLxx drives for free pickup in San Antonio, TX In-Reply-To: <32806E20-BEB3-4E46-8D0B-D365FBA186CE@nf6x.net> References: <32806E20-BEB3-4E46-8D0B-D365FBA186CE@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <20160116071534.GA1127@lonesome.com> Of course I will go pick it up to prevent it from going to the dump, if no one else will. I am in Austin. mcl From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 05:02:12 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 12:02:12 +0100 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? Message-ID: I was trying to archive a bunch of 8 inch floppy disks. Everything was well until I tried an Inmac brand disk. It had severe sticky shed problems. Since it was a non-important disk it wasn't that bad. Baking might solve the problem so before continuing with the rest of the Inmac branded disks with more valuable content I searched internet for knowhow on baking. Then I found this article https://www.questia.com/library/journal/1G1-359998950/the-new-non-baking-cure-for-sticky-shed-tapes-how on a cure for the sticky shed without baking the tape. I haven't read the article in ARSC since I am not a member. But maybe someone knows what this is about? /Mattis From mazzinia at tin.it Sat Jan 16 08:21:16 2016 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 15:21:16 +0100 Subject: R: SGI Fuel P/S ::WAS:::::::Re: For you SGI fans... In-Reply-To: References: <56967F53.10508@charter.net> <56980D53.7050608@oryx.us> <00a901d14fdb$5d7cb0e0$187612a0$@tin.it> <56997848.6070203@oryx.us> Message-ID: <004201d15069$29e88ef0$7db9acd0$@tin.it> Yes, that can be done, but there are some issues... aka the psu must have some basic values for the lines, and finding one suitable can be a problem. Plus if I remember right you need to have the connector (in my case I don't have it), to swap it and tweak the cables (with the hope of not doing an error in the meanwhile). The other issue (that at least applies to my case) is not being 100% sure that there were no damages to the boards caused by the busted psu -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di pdaguytom . Inviato: sabato 16 gennaio 2016 00:51 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: SGI Fuel P/S ::WAS:::::::Re: For you SGI fans... The Fuel PS can be swapped for its PC counter part. Wonder over to Nekochan.net and search for Fuel Power supply, there is a lot of info on this. The p1 connector has to be resorted and the replacement PS has to have the fan monitoring and that signal has to be adjusted to what L1 expects. The motherboard has several environment monitoring ICs that, on the early revisions, go bad and keeps the computer from starting. These ICs are/were available for the brave hearted to attempt the repair. The later motherboards apparently don't suffer from the enviro monitoring failures as often. Nekochan is a great resource, it was invaluable for me when I was building my Fuel. Tom On Friday, January 15, 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Thanks for the comments. > > All this SGI discussion has me wanting to go out and hunt down a Fuel > even more. > > It sounds like I need to focus on finding one with a rev-4 or better > power supply. > > Its been some time since I have personally done any soldering. > > There's got to be some place, for a fee, that knows about and can > repair SGI power supplies. > > Jerry > > > On 01/15/16 03:26 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > >> Sadly yes, there's a known issue with psu in fuels. I have one that >> went kaboom after 20 minutes and lies waiting for a psu since months >> (and will lie that way, I guess. I'm looking at it in a sad way near daily...). >> >> Long story short, Fuel psu were made by 3 different brands, and each >> of them had ... longevity issues... in what we could say being >> revision 1 to 3. >> >>> From 4 upward (and if I'm mistaken , at worst was from 3 upward) >>> they tend >>> >> to be resistant. >> >> Exploding issues aside, those psu are not standard and have a chip >> doing some mumbo jumbo inside (all lines are monitored, by example). >> That chip can .. erase itself... ( in the upper mentioned revisions, >> for sure ). There are no known dumps of the chip firmware. >> >> From pdaguytom at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 09:53:47 2016 From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom .) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 09:53:47 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/44 w/ 2 RLxx drives for free pickup in San Antonio, TX In-Reply-To: <20160116071534.GA1127@lonesome.com> References: <32806E20-BEB3-4E46-8D0B-D365FBA186CE@nf6x.net> <20160116071534.GA1127@lonesome.com> Message-ID: I'm trying to get a response from the gentleman, I'd like to try to pick it up. On Jan 16, 2016 1:15 AM, "Mark Linimon" wrote: > Of course I will go pick it up to prevent it from going to the dump, > if no one else will. I am in Austin. > > mcl > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 16 10:42:05 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 08:42:05 -0800 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <569A72DD.7000505@sydex.com> On 01/16/2016 03:02 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I haven't read the article in ARSC since I am not a member. But maybe > someone knows what this is about? Much ado, IMOHO, about little. There's an associated patent: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US6797072.pdf that relates to this. Essentially, it's a system for cleaning the front and back of a tape. It was greeted with some skepticism on the ARSOList mailing list and I can find nothing much after that. Try this for your Inmac disk (I used to buy cables and such from them--Inmac blue): Bake the disk first. Get yourself some cyclomethicone (D5 lubricant) and coat both the front and back of the disk by swabbing it on the surface, then rotating the disk, then repeating until the entire surface is coated, then read the disk immediately. D5 is somewhat volatile and will eventually evaporate completely. I've used this method for very severely compromised disks and tapes where the binder has actually bled through to the oxide surface with great success. In the case of tapes, I mount the tape on my cleaning machine and use a thick felt strip to wipe the stuff on. You can use any excess D5 to untangle your hair (used in a lot of shampoos and horse grooming stuff). Utterly inert chemically. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 11:44:27 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 17:44:27 +0000 Subject: TU58 problems Message-ID: I am not sure this fits in with the current topics of this list on the grounds it involves real old hardware, but anyway.. I am currently trying to restore a VAX11/730. I got this about 20 years ago and dismantled it to get it home. For various reasons I never put it back together, I am doing that -- slowly -- now. It's the version in the half-height rack with an R80 at the bottom, then the 11/730 CPU box, and a TS05 on top. I know I am going to have problems with the storage devices, for the moment I am jsut trying to get the CPU running. I've remounted it in the rack, got all the ribbon cables in place, tested the PSU, etc. Minor PSU problems (leaky transistor) but now fine. Powering up gives the expected ROM> prompt on the terminal. Of course all you can do at that prompt is load the microcode from the TU58, so that is what I am trying to get working. And getting nowhere! Firstly the TU58 controller is not passing the self-test. I am pretty sure the 8155 RAM/IO chip is dead. I have removed this and fitted a DIP socket. The rollers were of course dead. I have made hubs and fitted an O-ring of a suitable size. This may not work correctly, but it does seem to move the tape. I have a couple of tape cartridges, the Console microocode tape, and amazingly the belt seems good in them. The motor does get the tape whizzing past the heads. I tried an 8155 borrowed from another device. The controller then passes the self-test (the LED comes on and stays on) but all I get is DD1: Read Error messages and the tape often runs off the spool (rethreading it is something I've got quite good at!). I tried a RS232 analyser between the TU58 and the VAX. Very odd. Either my RS232 anaylser drops 00 bytes or the TU58 sets short result packets. The meaningful bytes (response code, etc) are there, but things like the sequence number are not. Odd... With the 8155 removed, I can pull port pins (on the socket) high and low to start the motor, select drive, track, direction, etc. I've done that and put a LogicDart on the output of the comparator in the read amplifier. According to the manual, the tape is recorded at 800bpi and runs at 30ips. So I get that a bit should take around 41us. And a bit starts with a rising edge, the position of the falling edge (recorded at 1/4 or 3/4 of the bit time) determines whether it's a 0 or 1. Well, sometimes that's what I see on the LogicDart. Sometimes I see a 1:1 square wave with a period of 40-odd us. Does anyone have any sensible ideas as to what to try next. At the moment I have no idea if it's the tape, heads, roller or what.... -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jan 16 13:22:01 2016 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 14:22:01 -0500 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <569A9859.2030101@heeltoe.com> On 1/16/16 12:44 PM, tony duell wrote: > Does anyone have any sensible ideas as to what to try next. At the moment I have no idea if > it's the tape, heads, roller or what.... > This might not be what you want, but I boot my 11/730 from a tu58 emulator running on a linux box. I used a little ttl<->rs232 converter board. It works well and is reliable. If nothing more, it will let you load the microcode so you can check out the cpu. That R80, however. mmm. Those are cranky. And noisy. At first I put a UDA50 in to boot off more modern disks. But that took 2 slots so I switched to a unibus scsi card. That allowed me to get a slot back for memory. The fun thing about emulated tu58 is that it was easy to make a new boot tape with PUTR and put a unix loader which knows how to boot over ethernet. These days I tend to boot new kernels over ethernet with that. just a thought. ps: tu58 controller boards are easy to find. I have at least 4-5 of them. The rollers are the issue, when they turn to goo. -brad From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 13:59:39 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:59:39 +0100 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some comments inline. Mostly is maybe obvious... 2016-01-16 18:44 GMT+01:00 tony duell : > > > Powering up gives the expected ROM> prompt on the terminal. Of course all > you can > do at that prompt is load the microcode from the TU58, so that is what I > am trying to > get working. And getting nowhere! > And you don't want to use a TU58 emulator? (Or you enjoy waiting for the TU58 loading the microcode :-) I tried an 8155 borrowed from another device. The controller then passes > the self-test > (the LED comes on and stays on) but all I get is DD1: Read Error messages > and the tape > often runs off the spool (rethreading it is something I've got quite good > at!). > If it run the tape off spool the system seems to be unable to detect EOT/BOT markers on the tape. and since the TU58 is only relying on the read signal for this there has to be some problem with how the tape is read. > I tried a RS232 analyser between the TU58 and the VAX. Very odd. Either my > RS232 anaylser > drops 00 bytes or the TU58 sets short result packets. The meaningful bytes > (response code, etc) > are there, but things like the sequence number are not. Odd... > Indeed, very odd. Since it now passes the self test I assume that the firmware is OK so it has to be something else. How can it miss sending bytes? Could there some problems with the interrupts? The RST 5.5 and RST 6.5 signals from the UART to the CPU. Or is there a subtle problem with the CPU itself in this respect. A logic analyzer on the bus and the interrupt signals would probably tell some. The 8085 code in the ROM would be easy to disassemble. If this isn't already done. I think I remember seeing a disassembly somewhere? > I've done that and put a LogicDart on the output of the comparator in the > read amplifier. > According to the manual, the tape is recorded at 800bpi and runs at 30ips. > So I get that > a bit should take around 41us. And a bit starts with a rising edge, the > position of the falling > edge (recorded at 1/4 or 3/4 of the bit time) determines whether it's a 0 > or 1. > > Well, sometimes that's what I see on the LogicDart. Sometimes I see a 1:1 > square wave with > a period of 40-odd us. > > Does anyone have any sensible ideas as to what to try next. At the moment > I have no idea if > it's the tape, heads, roller or what.... > The indication of the strange read signal probably explain why it runs off the spool. Does both TU58 drives behave the same? If they do it would of course point towards the TU58 controller. A scope probe on the previous amplifier stages show what kind of signal? It is not some kind of fault with the tape write circuitry? So that this is somehow enabled due to a logic fault? Does the "Tacho" signal show the correct speed? You don't happen to have another TU58 controller to try with just to verify things. I have quite many of those actually. So no real answers since I always cheated when it comes to TU58: I use an emulator... /Mattis > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 14:15:51 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:15:51 +0000 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: <569A9859.2030101@heeltoe.com> References: , <569A9859.2030101@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > > Does anyone have any sensible ideas as to what to try next. At the moment I have no idea if > > it's the tape, heads, roller or what.... > > > This might not be what you want, but I boot my 11/730 from a tu58 > emulator running on a linux box. I used a little ttl<->rs232 converter > board. It works well and is reliable. I had considered that, or one of the TU58 emulators that use SD cards or similar but (a) I am trying to restore this VAX, not make a machine that runs VAX software and is not original and (b) I do have this moral objection to using more components to load the microcode than in the rest of the machine. AFAIK the TU58 interface (at least on the 11/730) can run at RS232 levels, you don't need a level shifter board. > If nothing more, it will let you load the microcode so you can check out > the cpu. True, but it is one more thing I have to set up and debug. > That R80, however. mmm. Those are cranky. And noisy. At first I put a Mine might be worse than most.... I took it apart 20 years ago (no not the HDA) to (a) get it out of the rack -- it's heavy and (b) to repair some damage to the casing. Never did the latter, I didn't really have the tools at the time. And you guessed it, I can't find all the bits now. Fortunately I have the main bits -- the casing, the HDA, the PSU, the spindle motor, the 4 main PCBs, etc. What I am missing are all the nuts and bolts (and being UNC they are not easy to get over here), some of the internal cables (trivial to make IDC ribbon cables), the motor belt (ouch!, it's different on 50Hz models) and the hardest to make, the brackets for the gas struts. I have the gas struts but not the brackets, clevis pins, etc to fix them to the bottom case and logic chassis. Making those will be 'fun'. They may still turn up of course... > UDA50 in to boot off more modern disks. But that took 2 slots so I I do not want a Unibus expansion cabinet, I want to put everything in the CPU box. Which means I really want to keep that R80 on the Integrated Disk Controller (I do not want to try running from RL02s!). This, alas, means I am not going to have ethernet since AFAIK you can't run the cable through that odd cable tray thing on the 11/730. And a UDA50 is out! In any case, what would I link a UDA50 to? RA8x's are going to be as bad as the R80 (very similar design). RA90s, well, I met those in 'real use' in the 1990's. No thanks! [...] > ps: tu58 controller boards are easy to find. I have at least 4-5 of > them. The rollers are the issue, when they turn to goo. The controller is also not hard to fix. I have the printset, there is nothing I don't understand about it. Yes, my rollers have turned to goo. I've tried suitably-sized O-rings on home-made metal hubs. The tape seems to move at the right speed, given the data rate is right some of the time (and when it isn't, I don't think it's the roller slipping) -tony From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 14:17:49 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 21:17:49 +0100 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <569AA56D.20102@gmail.com> Hello, well, if you see square waves, probably the read path analog circuit could auto-oscillate. This could be because of poorly filtered supply (bad electrolytic capacitors), or possibly some component in the feedback that's not soldered well. I should have a schematic around, I could give a look tomorrow... Andrea From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 14:26:23 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:26:23 +0000 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > > > Powering up gives the expected ROM> prompt on the terminal. Of course all > > you can > > do at that prompt is load the microcode from the TU58, so that is what I > > am trying to > > get working. And getting nowhere! > > > > And you don't want to use a TU58 emulator? (Or you enjoy waiting for the > TU58 loading the microcode :-) No, I don't want to use a TU58 emulator for the same reason that I am restoring this VAX and not running a VAX emulator. I want to keep the old hardware running. The original machine loaded its microcode off tape so that's what I want it to do. > If it run the tape off spool the system seems to be unable to detect > EOT/BOT markers on the tape. Sure. > and since the TU58 is only relying on the read signal for this there has to > be some problem with how the tape is read. Agreed. > > I tried a RS232 analyser between the TU58 and the VAX. Very odd. Either my > > RS232 anaylser > > drops 00 bytes or the TU58 sets short result packets. The meaningful bytes > > (response code, etc) > > are there, but things like the sequence number are not. Odd... > > > > Indeed, very odd. Since it now passes the self test I assume that the > firmware is OK so it has to be something else. How can it miss sending I believe so. The ROM reads out identcally to the one in the standalone TU58 (alas with bad rollers so I can't use that to check against) for my 11/44. It would be a very odd coincidence if both ROMs had failed in the same way. > bytes? Could there some problems with the interrupts? The RST 5.5 and RST > 6.5 signals from the UART to the CPU. Or is there a subtle problem with the > CPU itself in this respect. A logic analyzer on the bus and the interrupt > signals would probably tell some. The 8085 code in the ROM would be easy to That I might well try. But at the moment I want to find out why the read signal looks so odd.... It's always possble my seral comms tester doesn't do what I expect and that the TU58 has no problems here. > disassemble. If this isn't already done. I think I remember seeing a > disassembly somewhere? Yes, I have it. I think it's on bitsavers. [...] > The indication of the strange read signal probably explain why it runs off > the spool. Does both TU58 drives behave the same? If they do it would of Yes. And yes both drives do exactly the same thing. Of course if it is a roller problem then they would in that I have replaced both roller with indentical ones that I made. > course point towards the TU58 controller. A scope probe on the previous > amplifier stages show what kind of signal? It is not some kind of fault > with the tape write circuitry? So that this is somehow enabled due to a > logic fault? No, I checked the write circuitry is all disabled before I put a tape in. The write protect switch disables the write circuitry in hardware, I have made sure this works too (and the cartridges are, of course, write protected). > Does the "Tacho" signal show the correct speed? Yes. Or at least the tacho loop is locking, the tacho signal looks nice on the LogicDart and it doubles in speed when I flip the appropriate signal. Given the data rate is sometimes correct and the Tacho signal doens't change I think it's working. > You don't happen to have another TU58 controller to try with just to verify > things. I have quite many of those actually. I guess I could try the one from the 11/44 drives. -tony From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 16 14:27:16 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 14:27:16 -0600 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <569AA7A4.8070303@pico-systems.com> On 01/16/2016 11:44 AM, tony duell wrote: > So I get that > a bit should take around 41us. And a bit starts with a rising edge, the position of the falling > edge (recorded at 1/4 or 3/4 of the bit time) determines whether it's a 0 or 1. No, not correct for 800 BPI (NRZI). That is somewhat how 1600/3200 PE tape works. > > Well, sometimes that's what I see on the LogicDart. Sometimes I see a 1:1 square wave with > a period of 40-odd us. > > 800 BPI (NRZI) only has transitions on a data track when there is a 1 recorded. There will always be at least one 1 recorded in any byte, as the odd parity track will have a 1 for an all-zero data byte. So, a track that has all 1's in consecutive bytes will have your ~40us square wave. When the head is porperly aligned for skew, there will be a skew test point that should have an approximate square wave. When the skew is bad, this will have a wave with stepped sides, showing where individual bits came in with a time skew. If a track has a run of zeroes, then that data track will have no transitions in it for that interval. At the end of the data block, there will be a 2 character-time gap, then the CRC and LRCC will be recorded. The CRC is computed with a shift register with XOR gates, the LRCC is produced by just clearing the NRZI register. it is a longitudinal parity of all the 1's in that data track. If a track has an odd number of 1's in it (including the CRC) then there will be a transition in that bit of the LRCC. Jon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 14:31:51 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:31:51 +0000 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: <569AA7A4.8070303@pico-systems.com> References: , <569AA7A4.8070303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > 800 BPI (NRZI) only has transitions on a data track when As I understand it the TU58 is not NRZI. According to the manual (and I see this sometimes) a 'bit cell' starts with a +ve magnetic flux transition (OK, that is meaningless, it really means there is a +ve edge at the output of the read comparator at the start of every bit cell). There is a -ve edge somewhere in the bit cell. If it is before the halfway time it's one state of bit (I forget which), if it's after then it's the other. They are recorded at the 1/4 and 3/4 times respectively to allow for some errors. So an exact half way transition is meaningless. When I say I see it 'sometimes' I can't know exactly which bit of the tape I am reading each time I sample the signals. So it's very possible the read circuits are behaving consistently and the tape is the problem. -tony From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jan 16 14:39:22 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 12:39:22 -0800 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: <569A9859.2030101@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2016, at 12:15, tony duell wrote: > I had considered that, or one of the TU58 emulators that use SD cards or > similar but (a) I am trying to restore this VAX, not make a machine that runs > VAX software and is not original and (b) I do have this moral objection to > using more components to load the microcode than in the rest of the machine. I am in that same camp. I am presently using TU58 emulation to make progress on the rest of the system, but I do plan to try to get my original drive and tapes working in the future. Even if I immediately unplug it and plug an emulator back in, because I thoroughly distrust the tape cartridge design and I am not confident that any of my tapes are any good. I would like to make an SD card based emulator that clicks into place in one of the tape slots and the plugs into the console I place if the original drive, so it can be as unobtrusive and standalone as possible. > > AFAIK the TU58 interface (at least on the 11/730) can run at RS232 levels, you > don't need a level shifter board. Correct. Regular RS232 levels. There is at least one really short timeout in the console code that can cause trouble with some emulators running on some platforms, but I managed to hack around that in tu58em running on a Mac. I put together hardware to use a RasPi instead so the 730 doesn't need to be tethered to a laptop, but I haven't gotten that working yet. > This, alas, means I am not going to have > ethernet since AFAIK you can't run the cable through that odd cable tray thing on > the 11/730. I have Ethernet in my 730, though I don't have it working yet. My experience is that trying to route the round AUI cable through the bottom tray with the ribbon cables is doomed to failure, but the cable can instead be routed over the top of the cards, through openings in the power supply area, then along the folding gantry along with the power cables. I haven't gotten networking up and running on my VAX yet, and I don't yet know what combination of hardware, software and operator ignorance is causing it to not work. I'm still pretty happy that I can boot VMS from either the R80 or RL02. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 14:51:04 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:51:04 +0000 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: <569A9859.2030101@heeltoe.com> , Message-ID: > > > I had considered that, or one of the TU58 emulators that use SD cards or > > similar but (a) I am trying to restore this VAX, not make a machine that runs > > VAX software and is not original and (b) I do have this moral objection to > > using more components to load the microcode than in the rest of the machine. > > I am in that same camp. I am presently using TU58 emulation to make progress on the > rest of the system, but I do plan to try to get my original drive and tapes working in the > future. Even if I immediately unplug it and plug an emulator back in, because I thoroughly > distrust the tape cartridge design and I am not confident that any of my tapes are any > good. I would like to make an SD card based emulator that clicks into place in one of That is one of my problems. I do not know the tapes are still readable. They may well not be. I might be tracing a fault that actually does not exist... > the tape slots and the plugs into the console I place if the original drive, so it can be as > unobtrusive and standalone as possible. Even so it's not how the machine was designed to boot.... I really do want to get it back as DEC intended if at all possible. Even if I have to make a formatter for blank tape cartridges or something. [...] > I put together hardware to use a RasPi instead so the 730 doesn't need to be tethered > to a laptop, but I haven't gotten that working yet. 'Haven't gotten that working yet' :-). That's how I feel about doing something like this (quite apart from the 'moral' aspects) I am having to do battle with things that may or may not work, may or may not be well documented (at least the TU58 is well documented) and am likely to spend a lot of time getting nowhere. > I have Ethernet in my 730, though I don't have it working yet. My experience is that trying to > route the round AUI cable through the bottom tray with the ribbon cables is doomed to failure, > but the cable can instead be routed over the top of the cards, through openings in the power > supply area, then along the folding gantry along with the power cables. I haven't gotten > networking up and running on my VAX yet, and I don't yet know what combination of hardware, > software and operator ignorance is causing it to not work. I'm still pretty happy that I can > boot VMS from either the R80 or RL02. That's not a bad idea.... I do have a DELUA somewhere I think. Might be worth trying it in place of 1M of RAM. But let's get the CPU working first.... I have the RL brought out to the connector panel, but no drives hooked up to that. I have a TS05 magtape to go on top of the rack. It needs a rebuild too. The door is smashed and mostly missing, the rubber (?) pads that lock the supply spool are dead, etc. Spent the morning making a reasonable substitute for the Cipher reel hight setting tool. -tony From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Jan 16 15:47:26 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:47:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201601162147.QAA06238@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Of course all you can do at that prompt is load the microcode from >>> the TU58, so that is what I am trying to get working. And getting >>> nowhere! >> And you don't want to use a TU58 emulator? > No, I don't want to use a TU58 emulator for the same reason that I am > restoring this VAX and not running a VAX emulator. I can certainly understand that. But a TU58 emulator could be a useful diagnostic tool. Personally, I would try to get it working from the emulator first; that would give me a reasonable level of confidence that, when chasing a bug in the TU58, I'm actually chasing a bug in the TU58 and not a bug in the CPU. Similarly, it could be a useful diagnostic tool to connect the real TU58 hardware to a known-working (presumably slightly more modern) machine to see if it's willing to work that way. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 15:52:39 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 21:52:39 +0000 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: <201601162147.QAA06238@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <201601162147.QAA06238@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > > I can certainly understand that. But a TU58 emulator could be a useful > diagnostic tool. Personally, I would try to get it working from the Agreed. But a diagnostic tool is only useful if you can trust it. I suspect that if I tried to set up a TU58 emulator I would have problems due to my lack of programming knowledge and thus would be wondering if my problems were due to the emulator or the VAX CPU.. > Similarly, it could be a useful diagnostic tool to connect the real > TU58 hardware to a known-working (presumably slightly more modern) > machine to see if it's willing to work that way. Yes. Does such a program exist? Something that will let me send commands to the TU58 and see what it sends back? Again I could write one, but then again I want to be sure that when it doesn't work it's a real problem with the TU58 I've read and re-read the TU58 ROM source listings and AFAIK there is no way it could send the result packets my serial comms analyser thinks it is sending. No logical fault could cause it to drop the bytes it seems not to be sending. My guess is that said analyser is not doing what I expect! See what I mean about diagnostic tools that are unreliable... -tony From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 16:04:36 2016 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 17:04:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Need cheap source for anti-static chip tubes Message-ID: Title says it. Perhaps I'm being stupid about search terms, but I'm not finding much of anything on eBay. One seller has TSOP tubes, but I need plain, old 300mm DIP tubes. End plugs and pins for them as well. Plenty of companies offering them on the web, but all are oriented for production quantities. I'd be happy with 20-25. -- From isking at uw.edu Sat Jan 16 16:26:22 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 14:26:22 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 w/ 2 RLxx drives for free pickup in San Antonio, TX In-Reply-To: References: <32806E20-BEB3-4E46-8D0B-D365FBA186CE@nf6x.net> <20160116071534.GA1127@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 7:53 AM, pdaguytom . wrote: > I'm trying to get a response from the gentleman, I'd like to try to pick > it up. > On Jan 16, 2016 1:15 AM, "Mark Linimon" wrote: > > > Of course I will go pick it up to prevent it from going to the dump, > > if no one else will. I am in Austin. > > > > mcl > > > Good on ya! I like my 11/44. Gotta hook it up to my RM02s one of these days.... -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From north at alum.mit.edu Sat Jan 16 16:29:29 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 14:29:29 -0800 Subject: Need cheap source for anti-static chip tubes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <569AC449.5070602@alum.mit.edu> On 1/16/2016 2:04 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Title says it. Perhaps I'm being stupid about search terms, but I'm not > finding much of anything on eBay. One seller has TSOP tubes, but I need > plain, old 300mm DIP tubes. End plugs and pins for them as well. > > Plenty of companies offering them on the web, but all are oriented for > production quantities. I'd be happy with 20-25. > > > www.jameco.com 300mil tubes for 25c each for 10 or more. They sell the rubber end plugs as well 7c each in 100s. http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c152/P123.pdf middle of the page From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 16:39:25 2016 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 17:39:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Need cheap source for anti-static chip tubes In-Reply-To: <569AC449.5070602@alum.mit.edu> References: <569AC449.5070602@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Don North wrote: > On 1/16/2016 2:04 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Title says it. Perhaps I'm being stupid about search terms, but I'm not >> finding much of anything on eBay. One seller has TSOP tubes, but I need >> plain, old 300mm DIP tubes. End plugs and pins for them as well. >> >> Plenty of companies offering them on the web, but all are oriented for >> production quantities. I'd be happy with 20-25. > www.jameco.com > > 300mil tubes for 25c each for 10 or more. They sell the rubber end plugs as > well 7c each in 100s. > > http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c152/P123.pdf middle of the page Thanks! I had hit DigiKey and Mouser but never thought of Jameco. -- From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 16:56:55 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 14:56:55 -0800 Subject: ISO: Unibus SCSI disk controller Message-ID: <569ACAB7.1040102@gmail.com> (...but then who isn't). I'm looking for a mass-storage device for my PDP-11/44, and I'm having worse and worse luck with my current solution, an Emulex SMD controller -- drives just keep going south on me (the controller works fine, though...) I know how hard these things are to find, but if anyone has a Unibus SCSI controller they're willing to trade for something else, let me know. I have a variety of gear, PDP-11 and otherwise, drop me a line and maybe we can work something out? Thanks as always, Josh From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 16 17:00:31 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 23:00:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: TU58 problems References: <2078059654.2839155.1452985231864.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2078059654.2839155.1452985231864.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Sat, 1/16/16, tony duell wrote: > I tried a RS232 analyser between the TU58 and the VAX. Very odd. Either > my RS232 anaylser drops 00 bytes or the TU58 sets short result packets. The > meaningful bytes (response code, etc) are there, but things like the sequence > number are not. Odd... > > Does anyone have any sensible ideas as to what to try next. At the moment > I have no idea if it's the tape, heads, roller or what.... If it were me, I'd start by setting up some tests to determine what exactly the protocol analyzer is doing. If it really is dropping 0 bytes, then I'd probably hack up a home grown capture using a couple of serial ports. If the controller and the VAX really are speaking the right protocol to each other, then it's time to worry about the correctness of the data. On the other hand, if the controller really is not sending all the bytes it should, I'd check for bit rot in the EPROM. BLS From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 15:15:55 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 22:15:55 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow PC100-A Message-ID: <569AB30B.1010609@gmail.com> Hello, I recently took a DEC Rainbow PC100-A. It has been a huge house for a lot of spiders, who deposited eggs and dead insects all around. After full disassembling, cleaning and reassembling, I'm ready to try it! PSU seems to work well, power goes on with almost precise voltages, then all the test leds on the back will lit on... then nothing happens! No video, no sign of life. Clearly there's a problem at the very beginning of the boot phase, that could be caused by a lot of reasons. In the next days I will try to analyze possible causes of the problem with oscilloscope, in the meantime I'm searching a schematic, as board is very complex to follow trace-by-trace. On bitsavers I found a schematic of PC100B, but the main board is not the same as PC100A. Anybody has a schematic for PC100A? I suspect that ROMs could be damaged, anybody has a correct dump to verify the content of the EPROMS? Thanks Andrea From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jan 16 17:21:26 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:21:26 -0700 Subject: DEC Rainbow PC100-A In-Reply-To: <569AB30B.1010609@gmail.com> References: <569AB30B.1010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <569AD076.7080500@e-bbes.com> On 2016-01-16 14:15, shadoooo wrote: > After full disassembling, cleaning and reassembling, I'm ready to try it! > PSU seems to work well, power goes on with almost precise voltages, then > all the test leds on the back will lit on... > then nothing happens! No video, no sign of life. And they stay ALL on? From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jan 16 18:18:01 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:18:01 -0800 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <569ADDB9.6030405@jwsss.com> On 1/16/2016 12:26 PM, tony duell wrote: >>> Powering up gives the expected ROM> prompt on the terminal. Of course all >>> you can >>> do at that prompt is load the microcode from the TU58, so that is what I >>> am trying to >>> get working. And getting nowhere! >>> >> And you don't want to use a TU58 emulator? (Or you enjoy waiting for the >> TU58 loading the microcode :-) > No, I don't want to use a TU58 emulator for the same reason that I am restoring this > VAX and not running a VAX emulator. I want to keep the old hardware running. The > original machine loaded its microcode off tape so that's what I want it to do. the emulator will let you verify your serial link. If you don't use the emulator for anything else that is one time you should use it. Moral objections have nothing to do with getting as many tools on a problem as you can. > >> If it run the tape off spool the system seems to be unable to detect >> EOT/BOT markers on the tape. > Sure. > >> and since the TU58 is only relying on the read signal for this there has to >> be some problem with how the tape is read. > Agreed. > >>> I tried a RS232 analyser between the TU58 and the VAX. Very odd. Either my >>> RS232 anaylser >>> drops 00 bytes or the TU58 sets short result packets. The meaningful bytes >>> (response code, etc) >>> are there, but things like the sequence number are not. Odd... >>> >> Indeed, very odd. Since it now passes the self test I assume that the >> firmware is OK so it has to be something else. How can it miss sending > I believe so. The ROM reads out identcally to the one in the standalone TU58 > (alas with bad rollers so I can't use that to check against) for my 11/44. It would > be a very odd coincidence if both ROMs had failed in the same way. > >> bytes? Could there some problems with the interrupts? The RST 5.5 and RST >> 6.5 signals from the UART to the CPU. Or is there a subtle problem with the >> CPU itself in this respect. A logic analyzer on the bus and the interrupt >> signals would probably tell some. The 8085 code in the ROM would be easy to > That I might well try. But at the moment I want to find out why the read signal > looks so odd.... It's always possble my seral comms tester doesn't do what I > expect and that the TU58 has no problems here. > >> disassemble. If this isn't already done. I think I remember seeing a >> disassembly somewhere? > Yes, I have it. I think it's on bitsavers. > [...] > >> The indication of the strange read signal probably explain why it runs off >> the spool. Does both TU58 drives behave the same? If they do it would of > Yes. > > And yes both drives do exactly the same thing. Of course if it is a roller problem > then they would in that I have replaced both roller with indentical ones that I made. > >> course point towards the TU58 controller. A scope probe on the previous >> amplifier stages show what kind of signal? It is not some kind of fault >> with the tape write circuitry? So that this is somehow enabled due to a >> logic fault? > No, I checked the write circuitry is all disabled before I put a tape in. The write > protect switch disables the write circuitry in hardware, I have made sure this works > too (and the cartridges are, of course, write protected). > >> Does the "Tacho" signal show the correct speed? > Yes. Or at least the tacho loop is locking, the tacho signal looks nice on the > LogicDart and it doubles in speed when I flip the appropriate signal. Given the > data rate is sometimes correct and the Tacho signal doens't change I think it's > working. > >> You don't happen to have another TU58 controller to try with just to verify >> things. I have quite many of those actually. > I guess I could try the one from the 11/44 drives. > > -tony > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 16 18:54:54 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 18:54:54 -0600 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: , <569AA7A4.8070303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <569AE65E.7090301@pico-systems.com> On 01/16/2016 02:31 PM, tony duell wrote: >> 800 BPI (NRZI) only has transitions on a data track when > As I understand it the TU58 is not NRZI. > > WHOOPS! I Somehow read that as one of the 1/2 9-track tape drives! Jon From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Jan 16 19:41:03 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:41:03 -0500 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: , <201601162147.QAA06238@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <569AF12F.9060505@compsys.to> >tony duell wrote: >>Similarly, it could be a useful diagnostic tool to connect the real >>TU58 hardware to a known-working (presumably slightly more modern) >>machine to see if it's willing to work that way. >> >Yes. Does such a program exist? Something that will let me send commands >to the TU58 and see what it sends back? Again I could write one, but then >again I want to be sure that when it doesn't work it's a real problem with the >TU58 > RT-11 has a DD(X).SYS device driver which I have used on a PDP-11/83 connected to a DLV11-J. The connection is straight through with 10 pins to 10 pins (with one pin usually omitted). While the TU-58 tape will not have an RT-11 file structure, you can at least read each raw block and display the contents: DUMP/TERM DD0:/ONLY:nnnn nnnn is in octal unless it also has a decimal point Let me know if you need anything else to run the TU-58 with RT-11. Jerome Fine From leec2124 at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 23:39:07 2016 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 21:39:07 -0800 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mattis et al, I also ran across this info, here are links to the article and related material: Paper: https://www.dropbox.com/s/edgts703ycr1j7l/The_new__non-baking__cure_for_.PDF?dl=0 Correction: https://www.dropbox.com/s/57vgollh4b8im5j/Correction___clarification.PDF?dl=0 Patent: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ytkai85qiqny9oj/US6797072.pdf?dl=0 Appears that the inventor has a commercial entity to process tapes with sticky shed syndrome: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i22eh95id3bus22/Rezerex%20Process.pdf?dl=0 I have no connection with this person, just found this info researching sticky tapes. Sounds like there has been an independent assessment done of the technique WRT to audio tapes. Would be interesting to know if if his technique has been applied to data tapes. One thing I don't understand is does removing the backing from the tape (which seems to be the heart of this technique) degrade the mechanical integrity of the tape? I'm not a chemist or mechanical engineer so have no idea. HTH... Lee Courtney On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 3:02 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I was trying to archive a bunch of 8 inch floppy disks. Everything was well > until I tried an Inmac brand disk. It had severe sticky shed problems. > Since it was a non-important disk it wasn't that bad. Baking might solve > the problem so before continuing with the rest of the Inmac branded disks > with more valuable content I searched internet for knowhow on baking. > > Then I found this article > > https://www.questia.com/library/journal/1G1-359998950/the-new-non-baking-cure-for-sticky-shed-tapes-how > on a cure for the sticky shed without baking the tape. > > I haven't read the article in ARSC since I am not a member. But maybe > someone knows what this is about? > > /Mattis > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 23:42:50 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 23:42:50 -0600 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Get a food dehydrator there's a specific one recommended out in the audio world for sss can't remember what it is On Jan 16, 2016 11:39 PM, "Lee Courtney" wrote: > Mattis et al, > > I also ran across this info, here are links to the article and related > material: > > Paper: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/edgts703ycr1j7l/The_new__non-baking__cure_for_.PDF?dl=0 > Correction: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/57vgollh4b8im5j/Correction___clarification.PDF?dl=0 > Patent: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ytkai85qiqny9oj/US6797072.pdf?dl=0 > > Appears that the inventor has a commercial entity to process tapes with > sticky shed syndrome: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/i22eh95id3bus22/Rezerex%20Process.pdf?dl=0 > > I have no connection with this person, just found this info researching > sticky tapes. Sounds like there has been an independent assessment done of > the technique WRT to audio tapes. Would be interesting to know if if his > technique has been applied to data tapes. > > One thing I don't understand is does removing the backing from the tape > (which seems to be the heart of this technique) degrade the mechanical > integrity of the tape? I'm not a chemist or mechanical engineer so have no > idea. > > HTH... > > Lee Courtney > > On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 3:02 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > I was trying to archive a bunch of 8 inch floppy disks. Everything was > well > > until I tried an Inmac brand disk. It had severe sticky shed problems. > > Since it was a non-important disk it wasn't that bad. Baking might solve > > the problem so before continuing with the rest of the Inmac branded disks > > with more valuable content I searched internet for knowhow on baking. > > > > Then I found this article > > > > > https://www.questia.com/library/journal/1G1-359998950/the-new-non-baking-cure-for-sticky-shed-tapes-how > > on a cure for the sticky shed without baking the tape. > > > > I haven't read the article in ARSC since I am not a member. But maybe > > someone knows what this is about? > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > -- > Lee Courtney > +1-650-704-3934 cell > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 01:09:38 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 07:09:38 +0000 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: <569ADDB9.6030405@jwsss.com> References: , <569ADDB9.6030405@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Moral objections have nothing to do with getting as many tools on a > problem as you can. True. But if you don't have said tools set up and working, you may find (or at least I will find) that when somethng doesn't work you are not sure if the problem is a genuine fault or misuse/misunderstanding of the tool. If I had a TU58 emulator set up and working then I would try it, As it is, I could set one up (but on what, my linux box and VAX are in totally separate rooms) find it doesn't work and get nowhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 01:11:02 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 07:11:02 +0000 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: <569AF12F.9060505@compsys.to> References: , <201601162147.QAA06238@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <569AF12F.9060505@compsys.to> Message-ID: > While the TU-58 tape will not have an RT-11 file > structure, you can at least read each raw block > and display the contents: Actually I believe the VAX11/730 console tape is an RT11 file system (for all there is no PDP11 involved). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 01:17:42 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 07:17:42 +0000 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: <2078059654.2839155.1452985231864.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2078059654.2839155.1452985231864.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>, <2078059654.2839155.1452985231864.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > If it were me, I'd start by setting up some tests to determine what exactly > the protocol analyzer is doing. If it really is dropping 0 bytes, then I'd Well, I see 2 ways forward, in that I have found 2 things that look odd... One is to investigate the serial link between the VAX console processor and the TU58. The other is to see just why the data from the read amplifier looks odd and why the TU58 drive runs tapes off the spool (meaning it is not seeing the BOT marker). Intuitively I feel the latter is more likely to be the real problem. > probably hack up a home grown capture using a couple of serial ports. > If the controller and the VAX really are speaking the right protocol to > each other, then it's time to worry about the correctness of the data. On > the other hand, if the controller really is not sending all the bytes it should, > I'd check for bit rot in the EPROM. The TU58 ROM checks against a dump I made of it years ago (OK, that dump might be bad). It also checks against a dump of ROM in my other TU58 (which has bad rollers I have not repaired yet). The power on self test of the TU58 does a checksum of the ROM (OK, not a very good test) and that passes. I think bit rot is unlikely given that. Furthermore from a read of the source code it appears the TU58 builds the response packet in RAM and sends it. I can think of faults that would cause it to be truncated. But not a fault that causes it to leave out bytes from the middle of it. -tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 19:46:48 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:46:48 -0500 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout Message-ID: >From: Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org > >I have two "flippy organizers" (that's around 20 floppies each) full of >these oddball floppies. > >Picture at >https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/22020178558/in/dateposted/ > >They are 8", hard sectored, and the sectors are on the outer edge rather >than the hub, and there is an odd cutout on one edge that goes inside the >drive. > >I know I don't have a machine that uses these, so they are available for >trade. > >J Jay, The RICM just received a PDP-11/05 donation with an attached AED 2500 diskette subsystem. The drives are Memorex 651, and use the oddball diskettes you have. We could really use these diskettes. Is there any chance that you still have them? -- Michael Thompson From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Jan 16 19:51:42 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:51:42 -0500 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout Message-ID: <8da8b9.bb658bb.43cc4dae@aol.com> first time I have seen such a thing... Ed# In a message dated 1/16/2016 6:46:54 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, michael.99.thompson at gmail.com writes: >From: Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org > >I have two "flippy organizers" (that's around 20 floppies each) full of >these oddball floppies. > >Picture at >https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/22020178558/in/dateposted/ > >They are 8", hard sectored, and the sectors are on the outer edge rather >than the hub, and there is an odd cutout on one edge that goes inside the >drive. > >I know I don't have a machine that uses these, so they are available for >trade. > >J Jay, The RICM just received a PDP-11/05 donation with an attached AED 2500 diskette subsystem. The drives are Memorex 651, and use the oddball diskettes you have. We could really use these diskettes. Is there any chance that you still have them? -- Michael Thompson From j_hoppe at t-online.de Sun Jan 17 01:32:18 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 08:32:18 +0100 Subject: PDP-12 restauration in center Germany (J?rg Hoppe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <569B4382.6080207@t-online.de> Our website was updated, new URL for the PDP-12 is now http://c-c-g.de/aktuelles/100-nachrichten/311-pdp12-gekauft Joerg Am 11.01.2016 um 00:06 schrieb william degnan: >>>> >>> >>> Joerg, >>> >>> Take a look at a picture of our PDP-12. It has a PDP-8/I next to it as in >>> your picture. >>> >>> >> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12/dec-pdp-12-restoration/PDP-12_and_PDP-8I.jpg?attredirects=0 >>> >>> We also have MAI and Wang systems. >>> >>> -- >>> Michael Thompson >>> >> > > I love that green component cover on the left. What a fantastic style DEC > put into their systems. > > From dave at 661.org Sun Jan 17 02:52:39 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 08:52:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: seeking test program for klh10 and panda display Message-ID: In order to perfect my new USB-based Panda Display, I'd like to know what to expect on the display. Does anyone here have a pdp-10 program that will put a recognizable pattern on a parallel Panda Display? In particular, I'm looking for whatever is causing the action in this video to happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_LcQ5apODg -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave at 661.org Sun Jan 17 02:54:50 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 08:54:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: P112 CP/M computer kits still available Message-ID: FYI, I still have lots of P112 CP/M computer kits for sale. Please buy one or several. See http://661.org/p112/ -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jan 17 08:05:48 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 09:05:48 -0500 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: , <201601162147.QAA06238@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <569AF12F.9060505@compsys.to> Message-ID: <569B9FBC.7020603@compsys.to> >tony duell wrote: >>While the TU-58 tape will not have an RT-11 file >>structure, you can at least read each raw block >>and display the contents: >> >Actually I believe the VAX11/730 console tape is an >RT11 file system (for all there is no PDP11 involved). > On a VAX, there is an application (named EXCHANGE if I remember correctly) which reads and writes the first partition of any RT-11 disk drive. If you are correct and the file structure is from RT-11, then the TU-58 tapes would look as if they had normal RT-11 files. If you have a PDP-11 system with a serial DL port, don't forget that it must also be set at the same speed as the TU-58 tape drive. While it seems unlikely that you have not made sure with the VAX and the TU-58 tape that they both have the same baud rate, check just in case. Let us know if you are successful or if there is any other information that you need. Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 08:19:55 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 14:19:55 +0000 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: <569B9FBC.7020603@compsys.to> References: , <201601162147.QAA06238@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <569AF12F.9060505@compsys.to> , <569B9FBC.7020603@compsys.to> Message-ID: > > On a VAX, there is an application (named EXCHANGE if I remember > correctly) which reads and writes the first partition of any RT-11 disk Err, yes... This implies I have a working VAX. Until I repair ths TU58 and get it to load the CPU microcode, I don't. Sure... > If you have a PDP-11 system with a serial DL port, don't forget that > it must also be set at the same speed as the TU-58 tape drive. While > it seems unlikely that you have not made sure with the VAX and the > TU-58 tape that they both have the same baud rate, check just in case. Now I am confused.... I suspect it's 'near enough' but not spot on. The TU58 is running at 38400 baud, which I understand is correct for the VAX11/730 internal drive. In any case it's the unit that was inside my VAX CPU when I got it and there is no reason to assume the controller board was swapped out, The rate is set by wire-wrapped links on the TU58 controller board and those are right. I've also checked the frequency at the clock pins of the UART chip. But while the printset for the 11/730 CPU claims a 38400 baud rate clock (acutally 16 times that at the input to the serial chip, of course), I can't for the life of me work out how the 10MHz CPU clock oscillator is divided down to give this. I get it running at around 39kbps. I guess as it's async it will work, but.... I do not think this is the problem. I am sure the VAX console processor and the TU58 are communicating. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 17 12:36:43 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 18:36:43 -0000 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> > > I don't know if it applies to the AlphaStation 200 but I have a PWS > > 500a > which > > defaults back to the AlphaBios firmware whenever the battery dies. > > After replacing the battery, I have to connect a keyboard and monitor > > and go through the AlphaBios menus to reset it to SRM. (If I don't > > replace the battery, it lets me go through the motions of resetting it > > but it never > starts > > SRM.) > > > > I believe this reversion back to AlphaBios does indeed apply to the > AlphaStation 200 too. But in my case nothing appears on the monitor and > nothing appears on the serial port either, I just get some beeps and a LED > diagnostic code. It is possible that I have a cabling issue with the serial port, > but I did try a few combinations. If I know that I should expect output on the > serial port despite an NVRAM self-test failure then I could investigate that > further with my breakout box (don't have a protocol analyser). > Just wondering if I should expect anything on the serial port or on the monitor if my AlphaStation has an NVRAM self test failure. Anyone know? I still need to identify the NVRAM chip(s), although replacing them means learning how to desolder and resolder surface mount stuff, which I have never done before. Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 13:50:22 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 11:50:22 -0800 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <569BF07E.7010901@sydex.com> If you're really interested in tape restoration, Richard Hess runs a service professionally and has gobs of information. http://www.richardhess.com/tape/ Yes, I know he specializes in audio (analog) tape, but as Bob Pease used to say, "at some level, everything is analog". --Chuck From bob at jfcl.com Sun Jan 17 12:18:09 2016 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 10:18:09 -0800 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003e01d15153$6b7b6780$42723680$@com> What's the SD card based TU58 emulator that a couple of people mentioned? Is that just a Raspberry PI with linux and the existing TU58 emulator software, or is there something more purpose built? Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 12:40:50 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 18:40:50 +0000 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: <003e01d15153$6b7b6780$42723680$@com> References: , <003e01d15153$6b7b6780$42723680$@com> Message-ID: > > What's the SD card based TU58 emulator that a couple of people mentioned? > Is that just a Raspberry PI with linux and the existing TU58 emulator > software, or is there something more purpose built? First hit on Google for 'TU58 Emulator' (no quotes) for me was : http://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/tu58/ Seems to be an arduino-based device using SD cards. Incidentally, another reason I am not too keen on using an emulator is that I suspect there could well be logic faults in the CPU and if I am not careful I will just have a long list of unsolved problems, whch can be somewhat disheartenng. I would rather find a fault and fix it, then go on to the next one. Since I do want to use the real TU58 in the end, I will have to get that working sometime and it might as well be now... -tony From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jan 17 14:40:23 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 15:40:23 -0500 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: References: , <003e01d15153$6b7b6780$42723680$@com> Message-ID: <569BFC37.4080405@cimmeri.com> On 1/17/2016 1:40 PM, tony duell wrote: > Incidentally, another reason I am not > too keen on using an emulator is that > I suspect there could well be logic > faults in the CPU and if I am not > careful I will just have a long list > of unsolved problems, whch can be > somewhat disheartenng... Yeah, but if the emulator doesn't work, then you have another important clue. It *probably* will work, in which case it's helped you narrow down your scope. - J. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 15:03:47 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 15:03:47 -0600 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? In-Reply-To: <569BF07E.7010901@sydex.com> References: <569BF07E.7010901@sydex.com> Message-ID: tape is tape all thats different is is the signal thats put on it. On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you're really interested in tape restoration, Richard Hess runs a > service professionally and has gobs of information. > > http://www.richardhess.com/tape/ > > Yes, I know he specializes in audio (analog) tape, but as Bob Pease used > to say, "at some level, everything is analog". > > --Chuck > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 15:25:12 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 21:25:12 +0000 Subject: TU58 problems In-Reply-To: <569BFC37.4080405@cimmeri.com> References: , <003e01d15153$6b7b6780$42723680$@com> , <569BFC37.4080405@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > > Yeah, but if the emulator doesn't work, > then you have another important clue. I _know_ there are problems on the TU58. It should detect the BOT and EOT markers and not let the tape run off the spool. It should never produce the waveform I am seeing at the output of the read comparator. No matter what else works and doesn't work that is a fault I have to trace and fix. So I might as well fix that first rather than spending time setting up an emulator that I am not going to use in the end anyway and which will not help with the problem I am seeing. I've not had a chance to do much more on it today, but I have been reading the schematics time and again. Looks like the tape speed doesn't matter too much at least for reading, so even if my new rollers are not quite the right size t should work. What I haven't analysed yet is how the read comparator (labelled 'peak det' on the schematic) behaves if the input signal is very low amplitude. It may do odd things, and of course poor tape (or heads) would cause this, Time to investigate that further I think. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 15:32:20 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 13:32:20 -0800 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? In-Reply-To: References: <569BF07E.7010901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <569C0864.4090404@sydex.com> On 01/17/2016 01:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > tape is tape all thats different is is the signal thats put on it. Nonsense-substrate, binder, magnetic characteristics vary widely between analog/audio and digital/computer tapes. Try taking some VHS tape and using it in your 9-track open-reel drive. Or how about recording audio on some old Univac Uniservo metal tape? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 17 16:00:49 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 15:00:49 -0700 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? In-Reply-To: <569C0864.4090404@sydex.com> References: <569BF07E.7010901@sydex.com> <569C0864.4090404@sydex.com> Message-ID: <569C0F11.6050809@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/17/2016 2:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/17/2016 01:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> tape is tape all thats different is is the signal thats put on it. > > Nonsense-substrate, binder, magnetic characteristics vary widely between > analog/audio and digital/computer tapes. Try taking some VHS tape and > using it in your 9-track open-reel drive. > > Or how about recording audio on some old Univac Uniservo metal tape? > > > --Chuck Why not just grab a few 8 tracks from the truck out back. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 17:41:29 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 15:41:29 -0800 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? In-Reply-To: <569C0F11.6050809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <569BF07E.7010901@sydex.com> <569C0864.4090404@sydex.com> <569C0F11.6050809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <569C26A9.9010106@sydex.com> On 01/17/2016 02:00 PM, ben wrote: > > Why not just grab a few 8 tracks from the truck out back. > ...Or fill those old QIC cartridges with some old acetate-base 1/4" open-reel audio tape? After all, it's all the same... --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jan 17 19:11:39 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 18:11:39 -0700 Subject: DEC Rainbow PC100-A In-Reply-To: <569AB30B.1010609@gmail.com> References: <569AB30B.1010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: Would love to help, but I have the PC100-B. The PC100-A board is somewhat different than the PC100-B, but not super different. Have you checked the diagnostics table in the technical reference to see what all LEDs lit means? I'd crack open my copy, but it is buried in boxes at the moment. Warner On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 2:15 PM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > I recently took a DEC Rainbow PC100-A. > It has been a huge house for a lot of spiders, who deposited eggs and dead > insects all around. > After full disassembling, cleaning and reassembling, I'm ready to try it! > PSU seems to work well, power goes on with almost precise voltages, then > all the test leds on the back will lit on... > then nothing happens! No video, no sign of life. > Clearly there's a problem at the very beginning of the boot phase, that > could be caused by a lot of reasons. > In the next days I will try to analyze possible causes of the problem with > oscilloscope, > in the meantime I'm searching a schematic, as board is very complex to > follow trace-by-trace. > > On bitsavers I found a schematic of PC100B, but the main board is not the > same as PC100A. > Anybody has a schematic for PC100A? > > I suspect that ROMs could be damaged, anybody has a correct dump to verify > the content of the EPROMS? > > Thanks > Andrea > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 04:39:15 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 10:39:15 -0000 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? (being serious for a moment) Message-ID: <02d701d151dc$7baec000$730c4000$@gmail.com> I know that tapes have different coatings, so some are ferrous and other chrome based, but what about the backing and "glue" that holds the two together? Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 17 January 2016 23:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? > > On 01/17/2016 02:00 PM, ben wrote: > > > > > Why not just grab a few 8 tracks from the truck out back. > > > > > ...Or fill those old QIC cartridges with some old acetate-base 1/4" > open-reel audio tape? After all, it's all the same... > > --Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jan 18 08:59:42 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:59:42 -0700 Subject: DEC Rainbow PC100-A In-Reply-To: References: <569AB30B.1010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <569CFDDE.1080103@e-bbes.com> On 2016-01-17 18:11, Warner Losh wrote: > Would love to help, but I have the PC100-B. The PC100-A board is somewhat > different than the > PC100-B, but not super different. > > Have you checked the diagnostics table in the technical reference to see > what all LEDs lit means? > I'd crack open my copy, but it is buried in boxes at the moment. All LEDs on, means, "replace the system board". I'm not sure, he wanted to hear that ;-) > Warner > > > On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 2:15 PM, shadoooo wrote: > >> Hello, >> I recently took a DEC Rainbow PC100-A. >> It has been a huge house for a lot of spiders, who deposited eggs and dead >> insects all around. >> After full disassembling, cleaning and reassembling, I'm ready to try it! >> PSU seems to work well, power goes on with almost precise voltages, then >> all the test leds on the back will lit on... >> then nothing happens! No video, no sign of life. >> Clearly there's a problem at the very beginning of the boot phase, that >> could be caused by a lot of reasons. >> In the next days I will try to analyze possible causes of the problem with >> oscilloscope, >> in the meantime I'm searching a schematic, as board is very complex to >> follow trace-by-trace. >> >> On bitsavers I found a schematic of PC100B, but the main board is not the >> same as PC100A. >> Anybody has a schematic for PC100A? >> >> I suspect that ROMs could be damaged, anybody has a correct dump to verify >> the content of the EPROMS? >> >> Thanks >> Andrea >> >> >> > > From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jan 18 08:59:42 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:59:42 -0700 Subject: DEC Rainbow PC100-A In-Reply-To: References: <569AB30B.1010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <569CFDDE.1080103@e-bbes.com> On 2016-01-17 18:11, Warner Losh wrote: > Would love to help, but I have the PC100-B. The PC100-A board is somewhat > different than the > PC100-B, but not super different. > > Have you checked the diagnostics table in the technical reference to see > what all LEDs lit means? > I'd crack open my copy, but it is buried in boxes at the moment. All LEDs on, means, "replace the system board". I'm not sure, he wanted to hear that ;-) > Warner > > > On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 2:15 PM, shadoooo wrote: > >> Hello, >> I recently took a DEC Rainbow PC100-A. >> It has been a huge house for a lot of spiders, who deposited eggs and dead >> insects all around. >> After full disassembling, cleaning and reassembling, I'm ready to try it! >> PSU seems to work well, power goes on with almost precise voltages, then >> all the test leds on the back will lit on... >> then nothing happens! No video, no sign of life. >> Clearly there's a problem at the very beginning of the boot phase, that >> could be caused by a lot of reasons. >> In the next days I will try to analyze possible causes of the problem with >> oscilloscope, >> in the meantime I'm searching a schematic, as board is very complex to >> follow trace-by-trace. >> >> On bitsavers I found a schematic of PC100B, but the main board is not the >> same as PC100A. >> Anybody has a schematic for PC100A? >> >> I suspect that ROMs could be damaged, anybody has a correct dump to verify >> the content of the EPROMS? >> >> Thanks >> Andrea >> >> >> > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 18 09:29:15 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 10:29:15 -0500 Subject: DEC Rainbow PC100-A In-Reply-To: <569CFDDE.1080103@e-bbes.com> References: <569AB30B.1010609@gmail.com> <569CFDDE.1080103@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 18, 2016, at 9:59 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > On 2016-01-17 18:11, Warner Losh wrote: >> Would love to help, but I have the PC100-B. The PC100-A board is somewhat >> different than the >> PC100-B, but not super different. >> >> Have you checked the diagnostics table in the technical reference to see >> what all LEDs lit means? >> I'd crack open my copy, but it is buried in boxes at the moment. > > All LEDs on, means, "replace the system board". > > I'm not sure, he wanted to hear that ;-) The typical DEC design approach to diagnostic LEDs is that the logic turns them all on at powerup reset, then the boot / diagnostic ROM turns some of them off as it sequences through the startup. Typically, the first LED change occurs quite early in that process. So if all LEDs remain on, that most likely means the CPU is not able to execute instructions at all. It might mean a busted CPU, busted ROM or CPU bus, or missing power or clock. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 18 10:33:06 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 10:33:06 -0600 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? (being serious for a moment) In-Reply-To: <02d701d151dc$7baec000$730c4000$@gmail.com> References: <02d701d151dc$7baec000$730c4000$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <569D13C2.50906@pico-systems.com> On 01/18/2016 04:39 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > I know that tapes have different coatings, so some are ferrous and other chrome based, but what about the backing and "glue" that holds the two together? > > There was a tape sold by a few manufacturers (I think 3M's was called Black Watch) that had a coarse black matte finish on the back side. A problem with some drives which had fast rewind speeds was that air was trapped in the tape wind, and then once a bunch more layers of tape was wound on the reel, the tape wrap would cinch and fold over a piece of tape. This matte finish was supposed to cure that, and I think it did. But, that finish was not as durable as the magnetic coating, and would start to shed all over the drive, leaving stuff on the data surface. I think about 5 years after the stuff came out, most data centers searched out and trashed all these tapes. Jon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 10:40:12 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 16:40:12 +0000 Subject: My TU58 again Message-ID: I think I have had a most instructive day. I did what I should have done a lot earlier and connected a (cheap, built from a Velleman kit) DSO to the output of the read amplifier in my TU58. That's pin 6 of the CA3130 at location E28 if you are trying to follow along in the printset, The printset indicates a wobbly waveform there marked 5Vpp. My little DSO can display the peak-peak measurement of a waveform. I started by cleaning the heads and demagnetising them (with one of those mains-powered electrmomagnet things). Of course I unplugged the drive from the controller before doing that in case the induced voltage was enough to damage things. Remember I have removed the 8155 from the controller board and fitted a socket, I have used jumper wires there to start and stop the tape, change direction, etc without the 8085 part getting in the way. I have what appears to be a new TU58 cartridge. With that in the drive I get a steady (and clean-looking) waveform of about 3.6Vpp. Low, compared to the value in the prints, but I suspect high enough to work. Then I tried my console tape. It goes all over the place. Sometimes 4V. Sometimes under 1V. And it is anything but a clean signal. There were times when it was just a little ripple. As I understand it there are no gaps in the formatting of a TU58. Certainly not ones that last for several seconds at normal tape speed. Worse than that, when I put the new cartrige back in the ampltude was significantly lower, around 2.7V. It came back when I cleaned the head again. My conclusion at this point is that my console tape is suffering from major dropouts and is shedding oxide. So now I need to get a good tape (maybe the new one I have), fix the standalone TU58 and dump the console tape image onto it. Or does anyone have any other ideas or comments? -tony From js at cimmeri.com Mon Jan 18 10:56:16 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 11:56:16 -0500 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? (being serious for a moment) In-Reply-To: <569D13C2.50906@pico-systems.com> References: <02d701d151dc$7baec000$730c4000$@gmail.com> <569D13C2.50906@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <569D1930.8060101@cimmeri.com> On 1/18/2016 11:33 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > There was a tape sold by a few > manufacturers (I think 3M's was called > Black Watch) that had a coarse black > matte finish on the back side. A > problem with some drives which had > fast rewind speeds was that air was > trapped in the tape wind, and then > once a bunch more layers of tape was > wound on the reel, the tape wrap would > cinch and fold over a piece of tape. > This matte finish was supposed to cure > that, and I think it did. But, that > finish was not as durable as the > magnetic coating, and would start to > shed all over the drive, leaving stuff > on the data surface. I think about 5 > years after the stuff came out, most > data centers searched out and trashed > all these tapes. > > Jon Interesting. I just happen to have a 3M Black Watch tape right here next to me that I'm using to test a Mark 300 tape cleaning machine. The tape so far is fine, not shedding anything front or back. - J. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 11:13:14 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 17:13:14 +0000 Subject: DEC Rainbow PC100-A In-Reply-To: <569CFDDE.1080103@e-bbes.com> References: <569AB30B.1010609@gmail.com> , <569CFDDE.1080103@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: IF the PC100-A is like the PC100-B (which I have full schematics for)... > All LEDs on, means, "replace the system board". > > I'm not sure, he wanted to hear that ;-) And it's not even right!. You can have all LEDs on with a perfectly good system board. A fault in the power-OK circuit in the PSU could cause it! OK. As has been suggested the LEDs are turned on when the hardware is reset (they are simply connected between the outputs of TTL latches and +5V, said latches are reset to 0 by the hardware reset signal) and then controlled by the processors. So all on suggests the processors are not running. Half of the LEDs are controlled by the 8088, the other half by the Z80. The 8088 is reset by the hardware reset signal, one of its output ports controls the Z80 reset line. So it is likely that the 8088 (at least) is not running. I would start there. Check its reset and clock inputs, does it seem to be accessing memory, etc. -tony From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 18 11:39:16 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 11:39:16 -0600 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? (being serious for a moment) In-Reply-To: <569D1930.8060101@cimmeri.com> References: <02d701d151dc$7baec000$730c4000$@gmail.com> <569D13C2.50906@pico-systems.com> <569D1930.8060101@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <569D2344.3000200@pico-systems.com> On 01/18/2016 10:56 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 1/18/2016 11:33 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >> There was a tape sold by a few manufacturers (I think >> 3M's was called Black Watch) that had a coarse black >> matte finish on the back side. A problem with some >> drives which had fast rewind speeds was that air was >> trapped in the tape wind, and then once a bunch more >> layers of tape was wound on the reel, the tape wrap would >> cinch and fold over a piece of tape. This matte finish >> was supposed to cure that, and I think it did. But, that >> finish was not as durable as the magnetic coating, and >> would start to shed all over the drive, leaving stuff on >> the data surface. I think about 5 years after the stuff >> came out, most data centers searched out and trashed all >> these tapes. >> >> Jon > > Interesting. I just happen to have a 3M Black Watch tape > right here next to me that I'm using to test a Mark 300 > tape cleaning machine. The tape so far is fine, not > shedding anything front or back. > > - J. > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 18 11:46:21 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 11:46:21 -0600 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? (being serious for a moment) In-Reply-To: <569D1930.8060101@cimmeri.com> References: <02d701d151dc$7baec000$730c4000$@gmail.com> <569D13C2.50906@pico-systems.com> <569D1930.8060101@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <569D24ED.9040500@pico-systems.com> On 01/18/2016 10:56 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > > Interesting. I just happen to have a 3M Black Watch tape > right here next to me that I'm using to test a Mark 300 > tape cleaning machine. The tape so far is fine, not > shedding anything front or back. > Sorry about previous reply, hit wrong button. Well, I don't know if it was the Black Watch that was the problem, or somebody else's version. We started with spring-arm drives, which could not keep constant tension on the tape. You'd hear this HORRIBLE scrunch noise at various times when the tape was being processed, which was the layers of tape sliding over each other. Usually didn't cause problems, but on occasion it could be so bad that the drive would lose tension and shut down in the middle of the reel. Vacuum column drives didn't seem to have much of this problem. I think it was the jerk of tension when the drive reversed to reread a bad block that started the slipping on the spring arm drives. Longevity of tapes was very spotty. Some expensive, name-brand tapes just disintegrated after a few years. Others have held up amazingly well. Last year I read in some 1993 backups of my MicroVAX system with no trouble at all. I did have to clean the tape head after every tape, but that wasn't greatly different from when the tapes were new. Jon From js at cimmeri.com Mon Jan 18 11:53:37 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 12:53:37 -0500 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? (being serious for a moment) In-Reply-To: <569D24ED.9040500@pico-systems.com> References: <02d701d151dc$7baec000$730c4000$@gmail.com> <569D13C2.50906@pico-systems.com> <569D1930.8060101@cimmeri.com> <569D24ED.9040500@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <569D26A1.5030308@cimmeri.com> On 1/18/2016 12:46 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Longevity of tapes was very spotty. > Some expensive, name-brand tapes just > disintegrated after a few years. > Others have held up amazingly well. Yeah, I think even among the same brand / model. Like I've heard bad things about Black Watch before too, but all of *my* Black Watch seem fine. Maybe just differences in amount of use and storage environment and luck of the draw. > Last year I read in some 1993 > backups of my MicroVAX system with no > trouble at all. I did have to clean > the tape head after every tape, but > that wasn't greatly different from > when the tapes were new. What media were those backups on (eg. TK70)? - J. From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Jan 18 13:04:03 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 12:04:03 -0700 Subject: DEC Rainbow PC100-A In-Reply-To: References: <569AB30B.1010609@gmail.com> <569CFDDE.1080103@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 10:13 AM, tony duell wrote: > IF the PC100-A is like the PC100-B (which I have full schematics for)... > > > All LEDs on, means, "replace the system board". > > > > I'm not sure, he wanted to hear that ;-) > > And it's not even right!. You can have all LEDs on with a perfectly good > system board. A fault in the power-OK circuit in the PSU could cause it! > > OK. As has been suggested the LEDs are turned on when the hardware is > reset (they are simply connected between the outputs of TTL latches and > +5V, > said latches are reset to 0 by the hardware reset signal) and then > controlled by > the processors. So all on suggests the processors are not running. Half of > the > LEDs are controlled by the 8088, the other half by the Z80. The 8088 is > reset by > the hardware reset signal, one of its output ports controls the Z80 reset > line. > Yes, the 8088 is expected to load Z80 program and take it out of reset. The only interrupt wired to the z80 is the software interrupt from the 8088. > So it is likely that the 8088 (at least) is not running. I would start > there. Check its > reset and clock inputs, does it seem to be accessing memory, etc. Check its address and data bus too... Warner From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 18 13:18:37 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 11:18:37 -0800 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? (being serious for a moment) In-Reply-To: <569D24ED.9040500@pico-systems.com> References: <02d701d151dc$7baec000$730c4000$@gmail.com> <569D13C2.50906@pico-systems.com> <569D1930.8060101@cimmeri.com> <569D24ED.9040500@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <569D3A8D.5090904@sydex.com> On 01/18/2016 09:46 AM, Jon Elson wrote:> > Longevity of tapes was very spotty. Some expensive, name-brand tapes > just disintegrated after a few years. Others have held up amazingly > well. Last year I read in some 1993 backups of my MicroVAX system > with no trouble at all. I did have to clean the tape head after > every tape, but that wasn't greatly different from when the tapes > were new. I've not noticed that the 3M 700-series "Black Watch" tapes were any better or worse than other tapes of the time--if anything, they seem to stick less. AFAIK, the back-coating on the 700 series was mostly a matter of texture, not an applied substance. There were, however, some terrible tapes. Scotch brand 8104 tapes are among the nastiest. The tape binder often bleeds through the oxide face of the tape. You can't even get the things through a cleaning machine without having it jam--even after several passes (the silicon carbide blade is scary-sharp, and the damned tape will even stick to that.) I've found that coating is the only way to get those tapes to make their way through a tape drive without halting. Memorex tapes from the 80s (MRX IV and V) can be pretty lousy on their own and Memorex sold buckets of them cheaply. Baking is pretty much mandatory. Strangely, a crappy tape from a manufacturer doesn't mean that the same outfit's floppy disks are just as bad. Wabash-branded tape is actually pretty decent, while Wabash-branded floppy disks are the devil's own spawn. Go figure. --Chuck From Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de Mon Jan 18 09:51:21 2016 From: Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de (Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 15:51:21 +0000 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? Message-ID: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF929043730513902@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> > What is the exact model number of the video card? > > I am assuming it's an HP98204 of some flavour. The HP98204A uses (US, RS170) TV rates and > can be connected to any composite monitor that expects that. A lot of TVs (rather than monitors) > in Europe can accept that and have composite inputs still, perhaps on a SCART socket. > > However the more normal video card in the 9000/217 (aka HP9817) is the HP98204B. This does > have a composite output but at rather odd rates. There was a specal 'HP' (actually a Samsung > chassis, and it shows!) monitor for this. I thinkl finding somethng that will lock to the video output > of that card is going to be 'interesting' > > Do you have the original HP monitor? If so, what model is it? > > -tony Hi Tony, indeed this machine has a 98204B video board (intended to work with a 35721 monitor, which I don't have). I have not yet found the specs for its composite signal. I find many $20 converters/scalers for composite to VGA on amazon or ebay but I am not sure whether such a thing would work for me. Obviously they seem to work for many computer games (SNES, Nintendo) and for some hobby computers like C64, Amiga etc. (e.g. "RCA Composite AV S-Video to VGA Converter Box"). Next I see $50 devices like "Mini Composite RCA CVBS AV To HDMI Converter (Input: AV; Output: HDMI)" which may also be an option, but only seem to scale to a fixed HDMI resolution, which may be unsuitable for the HP-resolution of 512x400 (or 512x390?). Finally I see $200 converters/scalers which are a bit expensive just for trying to see whether they work (e.g. "Atlona AT-AVS100 Composite/S-Video to Component/VGA Scaler"). I have also contacted Jon from the HP-Museum to see what their solution is. Regards, Martin From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 18 13:35:23 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 11:35:23 -0800 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? (being serious for a moment) In-Reply-To: <02d701d151dc$7baec000$730c4000$@gmail.com> References: <02d701d151dc$7baec000$730c4000$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <569D3E7B.9050009@sydex.com> On 01/18/2016 02:39 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > I know that tapes have different coatings, so some are ferrous and > other chrome based, but what about the backing and "glue" that holds > the two together? The difference in coatings between digital and analog tapes is pretty profound, as is the method of recording. Digital tapes want the magnetization characteristics to be as "steep" as possible, with the least middle ground (i.e. linear region). Analog tapes want just the opposite--a wide linear (or nearly so) magnetization region. Audio tapes employ the use of "bias" (either AC or DC) to push the recording into the linear area as much as possible. Backing for reel-to-reel magnetic tapes is almost always mylar/polyester, while audio tapes have used everything from paper and acetate to mylar. There's a good reason for that--acetate is inexpensive and performs well short-term. The problem is that it stretches rather than breaks under tension, which isn't acceptable in start-stop applications such as computer tape drives. That's probably a good thing. Acetate based tapes degrade in an ugly manner--and enclosing the reel in an airtight case exacerbates the problem. You can tell the difference easily at this point in time by the pronounced "vinegar" smell of deteriorating cellulose acetate. The binder and lubricants varied between manufacturers and were generally considered to be "trade secrets". --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 18 13:48:26 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:48:26 -0600 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? (being serious for a moment) In-Reply-To: <569D26A1.5030308@cimmeri.com> References: <02d701d151dc$7baec000$730c4000$@gmail.com> <569D13C2.50906@pico-systems.com> <569D1930.8060101@cimmeri.com> <569D24ED.9040500@pico-systems.com> <569D26A1.5030308@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <569D418A.7050400@pico-systems.com> On 01/18/2016 11:53 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 1/18/2016 12:46 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> Last year I read in some 1993 backups of my MicroVAX >> system with no trouble at all. I did have to clean the >> tape head after every tape, but that wasn't greatly >> different from when the tapes were new. > > What media were those backups on (eg. TK70)? > 9 track, 6250 BPI, recorded on CDC Keystone (92185) streaming drives, and read back on the same type. I built an interface so I could read the tapes in on a Linux system, and then used some publicly available software to unpack the BACKUP formatted images to native Linux files. The Pertec formatted tape interface is quite simple. My interface is pretty simple, though, and is controlled through the parallel port, so the tapes are processed at 25 IPS start/stop mode. If I were going to do it now, I'd use a Beagle Bone, and it probably would stream at 75 IPS. Jon From shadoooo at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 14:34:09 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:34:09 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <569D4C41.4040005@gmail.com> > So if all LEDs remain on, that most likely means the CPU is not able to execute instructions at all. > It might mean a busted CPU, busted ROM or CPU bus, or missing power or clock. Yes, that's exactly my feeling... so a schematic would be very good to try to diagnose an evident problem as missing signals, etc, knowing what they should be from the circuit diagram. I will try to check something easy at first, knowing the pinout of the microprocessors... but after that I suspect it will be harder. Andrea From shadoooo at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 14:34:50 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:34:50 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow PC100-A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <569D4C6A.4010605@gmail.com> > So if all LEDs remain on, that most likely means the CPU is not able to execute instructions at all. > It might mean a busted CPU, busted ROM or CPU bus, or missing power or clock. Yes, that's exactly my feeling... so a schematic would be very good to try to diagnose an evident problem as missing signals, etc, knowing what they should be from the circuit diagram. I will try to check something easy at first, knowing the pinout of the microprocessors... but after that I suspect it will be harder. Andrea From js at cimmeri.com Mon Jan 18 14:39:38 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 15:39:38 -0500 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF929043730513902@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF929043730513902@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: <569D4D8A.4080505@cimmeri.com> On 1/18/2016 10:51 AM, Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de wrote: > this machine has a 98204B video board (intended to work with a 35721 monitor, which I don't have). I have not yet found the specs for its composite signal. It's around 25khz. The 98204B is normally used with the 35721 or 35731 640x400 mono monitors. The 98543A gives you RGB, but is also 640x400 (25khz). > I find many $20 converters/scalers for composite to VGA on amazon or ebay but I am not sure whether such a thing would work for me. Obviously they seem to work for many computer games (SNES, Nintendo) and for some hobby computers like C64, Amiga etc. (e.g. "RCA Composite AV S-Video to VGA Converter Box"). None of them will work here. > Next I see $50 devices like "Mini Composite RCA CVBS AV To HDMI Converter (Input: AV; Output: HDMI)" which may also be an option, but only seem to scale to a fixed HDMI resolution, which may be unsuitable for the HP-resolution of 512x400 (or 512x390?). Won't work here. > Finally I see $200 converters/scalers which are a bit expensive just for trying to see whether they work (e.g. "Atlona AT-AVS100 Composite/S-Video to Component/VGA Scaler"). Won't work here. > I have also contacted Jon from the HP-Museum to see what their solution is. You need a monitor (or converter) that supports 25khz. Here's the extent of my own research: 25khz 640x400 SOG monitors LCD - NEC LCD1510+ (not tested) - NEC LCD1810 (LA-1831JMW-1) Mac + PC -- fair performance, poor scaling. HP 300/98543 -- works, but banded background cannot be completely faded to black (I got rid of my 1810's for this reason). - Viewsonic Vp150 HP300/98543 -- works well, great background, colors only fair. - Viewsonic VP181 HP 300/98543 -- not perfect but can be adjusted ok. banded background *can* be faded to black. - J. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 15:07:27 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:07:27 +0000 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF929043730513902@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF929043730513902@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: > indeed this machine has a 98204B video board (intended to work with a 35721 monitor, > which I don't have). I have not yet found the specs for its composite signal. It is normal composite video voltage levels with faster-than-normal horizontal scan rate. If you have a frequency counter (or something that can be used as one, then put the 98204B text board in the topmost position of the 9817, leaving out the graphics board (the machine will run without it) and take the top casing off the 9817. Take care to avoid the live mains and worse on the PSU board, power it up, and check the HS and VS pins of the 6845 (the only 40 pin IC on the board) Most, if not all, cheap composite video converters assume US or European TV rates and are not going to lock to this thing. If anybody knows of an interface that will work, I'd be interested to know about it too (I have a 9817 with the 98204B card, fortunately I do have the right montor for it). -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 18 15:15:43 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:15:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: VAXology Message-ID: VAXCINATION A "preventive training" provided to potential users of the VAX system to prevent software foul-ups other than deliberate. VAX-RAY A high-energy screening to determine whether a user is qualified to have a VAX I/O station on his floor. VAXWAGEN What everyone jumps on after the VAX is approved VAXING AND VAXING is the successful use of the VAX during WAILING the full moon. Wailing is the less successful alternative during the other lunar phases. VAXMAS The day the VAX come in. VAXCILLATE To oscillate between possible ways to administer VAX training. VAXCIMILE A German copy of the VAX. VAXECUTION The denial to a user of future access to the VAX. NO VAX TO A put-down administered to those withour a dial-up GRIND line, and hence no acces to the VAX, as in "Infidel! Let that terminal alone! You have no VAX to grind!" VAX AND THE SINGLE GIRL A relationship with much potential. VAXI! VAXI! A cry heard and unheeded by cruising VAX personnel as they go around the corridors, hailed by frantic users-to-be who desire a high-tech ride on the VAX. AVAX A low-flying VAX with radar. VAXTENUATING The generic excuse used to explain delays in the CIRCUMSTANCES delivery of the VAX. VAXCENTUATE To underline the importance of the VAX. VAXTERMINATION The perennial zapping of mysterious files from the VAX. VAXCINE An abbreviation for "I have seen the VAX!" VEDI, VENI, That victory cry - "I saw, I conquered. The VAX VAXI came!" VAXERCISE An early morning workout on the VAX. VAXUUM A computer room without a VAX. Abhorred by nature. VAXIMUM Keeping silent to the max about the startup of the VAX. VAX POPULI The users. VAX BUILDUP The result of not using the file delete command often enough. VAXACHUSETTS DEC country. INCOME VAX What one shouts when the VAX is delivered. VAX-FREE BOND A special relationship with a non-VAX computer on Wall Street. THE BLUE VAX World War I medal honoring high-powered computing. Also (modern): A VAX made by Smurfs. VAXIMA The height of ecstasy reached while computing on VAX. Also (archaic): Mother of VAX. VAXIS What the world of computers rotates on. GRODY TO THE VAX Like, y'know, the VAX in the valley fer shure! VAX-CARS What G.M. doesn't make. VAXICDENT The spilling of coffee on a VAX terminal. VAXONERATED The honor of DEC. VAXLE That to which the wheels of the VAX are attached. VAXIDERMIST One who lives by the dictum "You can take the VAX and stuff it!" THE VAX OF Everything you ever wanted to know about the birds LIFE and the bees (and the bugs in the VAX). VAX Long-haired northern cousins of the buffalo, used as beasts of burden in Tibet. TO VAX ELOQUENT The act of preparing a glossary for the VAX. g. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 15:32:10 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:32:10 +0000 Subject: VAXology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You missed out STRING AND SEALING VAX : What you need to kludge up a solution to just about any problem. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 18 15:55:44 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 14:55:44 -0700 Subject: VAXology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <569D5F60.80002@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/18/2016 2:32 PM, tony duell wrote: > You missed out > > STRING AND SEALING VAX : What you need to kludge up a solution to just about > any problem. > > -tony > > EAR VAX : Salesman's problem when you try to order a DECSYSTEM 10 From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jan 18 19:00:37 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 19:00:37 -0600 Subject: VAXology In-Reply-To: <569D5F60.80002@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <569D5F60.80002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20160119010037.GH13577@n0jcf.net> On Monday (01/18/2016 at 02:55PM -0700), ben wrote: > On 1/18/2016 2:32 PM, tony duell wrote: > >You missed out > > > >STRING AND SEALING VAX : What you need to kludge up a solution to just about > > any problem. > > > >-tony > > > > > EAR VAX : Salesman's problem when you try to order a DECSYSTEM 10 BEE'S VAX : The one that Opie first sysgen'd -- Chris Elmquist From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jan 18 19:09:03 2016 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 20:09:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAXology In-Reply-To: <20160119010037.GH13577@n0jcf.net> References: <569D5F60.80002@jetnet.ab.ca> <20160119010037.GH13577@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 2016, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Monday (01/18/2016 at 02:55PM -0700), ben wrote: >> On 1/18/2016 2:32 PM, tony duell wrote: >>> You missed out >>> >>> STRING AND SEALING VAX : What you need to kludge up a solution to just about >>> any problem. >>> >>> -tony >>> >>> >> EAR VAX : Salesman's problem when you try to order a DECSYSTEM 10 > > BEE'S VAX : The one that Opie first sysgen'd VAX on, VAX off : Karate teaching technique from Mr. Miyagi Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 18 19:23:21 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 17:23:21 -0800 Subject: VAXology In-Reply-To: References: <569D5F60.80002@jetnet.ab.ca> <20160119010037.GH13577@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <49A4FBBD-2335-4755-ADC1-A30034168F62@nf6x.net> Since my 11/730 is so small compared to its contemporary VAXen, I'm thinking of naming it VAXINA. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 18 21:12:49 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:12:49 -0600 Subject: MICRO LSI-11 BA23 available Message-ID: <001b01d15267$4813a090$d83ae1b0$@classiccmp.org> Someone would like to move out a Micro LSI-11 in a BA23 pedestal cabinet. Location is Northwest Ohio. Email me off-list if interested. J From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 18 21:44:14 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 19:44:14 -0800 Subject: VAXology In-Reply-To: References: <569D5F60.80002@jetnet.ab.ca> <20160119010037.GH13577@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <17351755-B0BC-4D50-AB7E-FA1754BDB792@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Jan-18, at 5:09 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jan 2016, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> On Monday (01/18/2016 at 02:55PM -0700), ben wrote: >>> On 1/18/2016 2:32 PM, tony duell wrote: >>>> You missed out >>>> >>>> STRING AND SEALING VAX : What you need to kludge up a solution to just about >>>> any problem. >>>> >>>> -tony >>>> >>>> >>> EAR VAX : Salesman's problem when you try to order a DECSYSTEM 10 >> >> BEE'S VAX : The one that Opie first sysgen'd > > VAX on, VAX off : Karate teaching technique from Mr. Miyagi I remember ca. 1980/1 DEC marketing was producing posters with these sorts of word play. My officemate - 780 sysop - put one up, some play on Latin like VAX POPULI . How about OPTIMUS VAXIMUS: The greatest VAX model or the greatest computer? From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 18 21:57:16 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:57:16 -0600 Subject: vaxstation 3100 boot issue? Message-ID: <003001d1526d$7cff3cf0$76fdb6d0$@classiccmp.org> I am not a vax person, I'm posting this for someone else. Could anyone offer advice for me to relay back to this person (other than reseating boards, cleaning connectors, or other non-vax-specific stuff)? -------------- I was hoping you could help me answer a question. I have a Vaxstation 3100 that, when I power it up, fails the test with the following LED readout: 1000 1010 which indicates the failure is in the memory management test. Any suggestions on further troubleshooting I can do to figure out how to get this machine booting? My plan is to run OpenBSD on it and see if I can revive some of the ports for this platform. I'm doing something similar on my Alphastation 500/400. -------------- Best, J From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 19 02:01:44 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 08:01:44 -0000 Subject: vaxstation 3100 boot issue? In-Reply-To: <003001d1526d$7cff3cf0$76fdb6d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <003001d1526d$7cff3cf0$76fdb6d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <041101d1528f$a9c5f9a0$fd51ece0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: 19 January 2016 03:57 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: vaxstation 3100 boot issue? > > I am not a vax person, I'm posting this for someone else. Could anyone offer > advice for me to relay back to this person (other than reseating boards, > cleaning connectors, or other non-vax-specific stuff)? > > -------------- > I was hoping you could help me answer a question. I have a Vaxstation 3100 > that, when I power it up, fails the test with the following LED readout: > > 1000 1010 > which indicates the failure is in the memory management test. Any > suggestions on further troubleshooting I can do to figure out how to get this > machine booting? My plan is to run OpenBSD on it and see if I can revive > some of the ports for this platform. I'm doing something similar on my > Alphastation 500/400. > -------------- Hmm.... I can't find that LED code in the doc I have: http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/a0574hr1.pdf. Which model of 3100 is this? Has he tried seeing if anything comes out on the console port? Regards Rob From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jan 19 04:26:13 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 10:26:13 +0000 (WET) Subject: vaxstation 3100 boot issue? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 19 Jan 2016 08:01:44 +0000" <041101d1528f$a9c5f9a0$fd51ece0$@ntlworld.com> References: <003001d1526d$7cff3cf0$76fdb6d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <01PVNVCYYXA800B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > > Sent: 19 January 2016 03:57 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: vaxstation 3100 boot issue? > > > > I am not a vax person, I'm posting this for someone else. Could anyone offer > > advice for me to relay back to this person (other than reseating boards, > > cleaning connectors, or other non-vax-specific stuff)? > > > > -------------- > > I was hoping you could help me answer a question. I have a Vaxstation 3100 > > that, when I power it up, fails the test with the following LED readout: > > > > 1000 1010 > > which indicates the failure is in the memory management test. Any > > suggestions on further troubleshooting I can do to figure out how to get this > > machine booting? My plan is to run OpenBSD on it and see if I can revive > > some of the ports for this platform. I'm doing something similar on my > > Alphastation 500/400. > > -------------- > > > Hmm.... I can't find that LED code in the doc I have: > http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/a0574hr1.pdf. Which model of > 3100 is this? Has he tried seeing if anything comes out on the console port? > I agree on checking the console. TEST 50 should give further information about the results of the power on self tests. TEST 0 should run the system exerciser. I'd strongly advise removing the battery. The machine should work quite happily without it except it will not keep time when the power is off and will forget it's boot settings. Check for corrosion on the main board in the area around where the battery lead connects. Check for corrosion on any memory expansion board fitted and see if the machine behaves any better with the board removed. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 19 07:49:33 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 07:49:33 -0600 Subject: vaxstation 3100 boot issue? In-Reply-To: <041101d1528f$a9c5f9a0$fd51ece0$@ntlworld.com> References: <003001d1526d$7cff3cf0$76fdb6d0$@classiccmp.org> <041101d1528f$a9c5f9a0$fd51ece0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <003e01d152c0$3a4bf530$aee3df90$@classiccmp.org> Robert wrote.... ------- Which model of 3100 is this? ------- That was the ONE tidbit I left out from his subject line. He said it was a Vaxstation 3100 "VS42A-BF" I'll pass on the recommendations, and if he has any more questions I'll point him to the list :) Thanks folks! Best, J From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 19 13:16:45 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:16:45 +0100 Subject: vaxstation 3100 boot issue? In-Reply-To: <01PVNVCYYXA800B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> References: <003001d1526d$7cff3cf0$76fdb6d0$@classiccmp.org> <01PVNVCYYXA800B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20160119191644.GB22777@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:26:13AM +0000, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > Check for corrosion on any memory expansion board fitted and see if the machine > behaves any better with the board removed. > I second removing the board. I had five differenct 3100 m10 and several had memory issues (and battery corrosion). The fault code seems familiar but I'm not sure I saw it. (If anyone wants them, they can have all that I have left) /P From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 04:51:16 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 10:51:16 +0000 Subject: How to set this drive up? In-Reply-To: <6C8554F9-7C2B-45FC-B447-6555E70243A0@gmail.com> References: <6C8554F9-7C2B-45FC-B447-6555E70243A0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <569E1524.5000003@gmail.com> On 01/19/2016 03:30 PM, Mike wrote: > Can someone please help me set this drive up and what should the little switched be set to on the back for drive 2 > > Sent from my iPhone. > -- *Mikes ATC Shop A how To Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5OzVS_CmCOLjjztbRiPuKQ?view_as=public 405-481-4715 * OOps I guess some pictures would be nice.. I would like the 3 1/4 drive to be my 2nd drive.* *http://nishtek.com/Ebay/1581_3.jpg What plugs in to what and *here are my questions *1/ there is a serial port next going from right to left there is a interface theb the tohhlr and i am not sure hie ti ser them then rge powre and last but not least the on and off switch.. Can this be use as a 2nd drive if so hoe do zi hook it up the right way? thank you sll in sdvsnce... From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 15:25:59 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:25:59 -0500 Subject: How to set this drive up? In-Reply-To: <569E1524.5000003@gmail.com> References: <6C8554F9-7C2B-45FC-B447-6555E70243A0@gmail.com> <569E1524.5000003@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:51 AM, Mike wrote: > > > On 01/19/2016 03:30 PM, Mike wrote: > > Can someone please help me set this drive up and what should the little > switched be set to on the back for drive 2 > > > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > > -- You can plug the serial cables into any slot. One cable connects the computer to either drive, one cable connects the first drive into the second. switches: Left down, right up. to test, there are many ways, but this works in most cases: LOAD "$",9 [return] LIST NOTE: many programs do not work from drive 9 without first editing the associated initialization script. These scripts are usually written in BASIC. Bill From starbase89 at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 18:02:20 2016 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 19:02:20 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? Message-ID: Hey, I've been looking into getting a C64 system to play with. I'm looking for not just the computer, but a 1541, a datasette, color monitor, printer, joystick and modem, and some software. Eventually I'd like to get an SD card adapter, too. Can someone give me an idea as to how much I might end up spending on all of this? Thanks! Joe This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 18:29:29 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 19:29:29 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2016 7:02 PM, "Joe Giliberti" wrote: > > Hey, > > I've been looking into getting a C64 system to play with. I'm looking for > not just the computer, but a 1541, a datasette, color monitor, printer, > joystick and modem, and some software. Eventually I'd like to get an SD > card adapter, too. Can someone give me an idea as to how much I might end > up spending on all of Working, $25-200. All over the map, $99 gets you something clean and usable. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From Rictech at mail.com Tue Jan 19 18:38:11 2016 From: Rictech at mail.com (Rick Wilbur) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 19:38:11 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> Check eBay right now. A complete system with everything you want, without the SD card interface. Has 17 hours left. Bidding with the cost of shipping is at $217.00. It will cost you under $100.00 for the SD interface. You might get everything you want for around $400. Type in at eBay search "Commodore C64 System" you will see a complete working system with computer, Monitor, floppy drive, cables, power supply and software for sale. Regards Sent from my iPad > On Jan 19, 2016, at 7:02 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > Hey, > > I've been looking into getting a C64 system to play with. I'm looking for > not just the computer, but a 1541, a datasette, color monitor, printer, > joystick and modem, and some software. Eventually I'd like to get an SD > card adapter, too. Can someone give me an idea as to how much I might end > up spending on all of this? > > Thanks! > Joe > > This > email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. > www.avast.com > > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 18:52:48 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 18:52:48 -0600 Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> Message-ID: Hey Joe, C-64 is kinda my 'thing', and I'd be more than happy to help you join the fold, so to speak.. ;-) Not sure where you're located, but C-64 (partial or complete systems) show up from cheap to free on many local craigslist services. For the most part, the C-64 itself is probably the cheapest and easiest to find, after that the 1541 drive and then a decent monitor. The Commodore 1702 & 1084 monitors are very nice, but getting pretty dang old. The 64 will work with +any+ composite monitor, but to really get the best video, try to get an S-Video capable monitor (older TV..) or one of the Commodore models. The Datasette isn't particularly useful, and as such, can be had cheap. Like any older mechanical cassette deck, they suffer the same issues (bad belts, hard rollers, dirty heads, hard grease, etc.). The modems are almost totally useless and as such, ought to be about free. This coming weekend I'm supposed to receive something like 2-3 complete C-64 systems with drives, monitors and accys. Who knows, one could be yours?! =) Software is plentiful and effectively free. Write me off-list for any other questions you'd rather not tie up list space with.. -Bill On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Rick Wilbur wrote: > Check eBay right now. A complete system with everything you want, without > the SD card interface. Has 17 hours left. Bidding with the cost of shipping > is at $217.00. It will cost you under $100.00 for the SD interface. You > might get everything you want for around $400. > Type in at eBay search "Commodore C64 System" you will see a complete > working system with computer, Monitor, floppy drive, cables, power supply > and software for sale. > Regards > Sent from my iPad > > > On Jan 19, 2016, at 7:02 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > > > Hey, > > > > I've been looking into getting a C64 system to play with. I'm looking for > > not just the computer, but a 1541, a datasette, color monitor, printer, > > joystick and modem, and some software. Eventually I'd like to get an SD > > card adapter, too. Can someone give me an idea as to how much I might end > > up spending on all of this? > > > > Thanks! > > Joe > > < > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail > > > > This > > email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. > > www.avast.com > > < > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail > > > > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 18:56:17 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 18:56:17 -0600 Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> Message-ID: One thing I forgot to mention.. while the C-64 and 1541 are fairly common and not worth all that much, some of the accessories can be +moderately+ valuable, so it's always a Good Idea to check out lots or complete systems to see what rare, valuable little gems might be hiding in the pile. One good example would be the FCIII (Final Cartridge III) and so on. These sorts of items can be worth $100+ each, well more than a brown C-64 console! So read the fine print, and look carefully at the photos.. On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:52 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Hey Joe, > > C-64 is kinda my 'thing', and I'd be more than happy to help you join the > fold, so to speak.. ;-) > > Not sure where you're located, but C-64 (partial or complete systems) show > up from cheap to free on many local craigslist services. For the most part, > the C-64 itself is probably the cheapest and easiest to find, after that > the 1541 drive and then a decent monitor. The Commodore 1702 & 1084 > monitors are very nice, but getting pretty dang old. The 64 will work with > +any+ composite monitor, but to really get the best video, try to get an > S-Video capable monitor (older TV..) or one of the Commodore models. > > The Datasette isn't particularly useful, and as such, can be had cheap. > Like any older mechanical cassette deck, they suffer the same issues (bad > belts, hard rollers, dirty heads, hard grease, etc.). The modems are almost > totally useless and as such, ought to be about free. > > This coming weekend I'm supposed to receive something like 2-3 complete > C-64 systems with drives, monitors and accys. Who knows, one could be > yours?! =) > > Software is plentiful and effectively free. > > Write me off-list for any other questions you'd rather not tie up list > space with.. > > -Bill > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Rick Wilbur wrote: > >> Check eBay right now. A complete system with everything you want, without >> the SD card interface. Has 17 hours left. Bidding with the cost of shipping >> is at $217.00. It will cost you under $100.00 for the SD interface. You >> might get everything you want for around $400. >> Type in at eBay search "Commodore C64 System" you will see a complete >> working system with computer, Monitor, floppy drive, cables, power supply >> and software for sale. >> Regards >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On Jan 19, 2016, at 7:02 PM, Joe Giliberti >> wrote: >> > >> > Hey, >> > >> > I've been looking into getting a C64 system to play with. I'm looking >> for >> > not just the computer, but a 1541, a datasette, color monitor, printer, >> > joystick and modem, and some software. Eventually I'd like to get an SD >> > card adapter, too. Can someone give me an idea as to how much I might >> end >> > up spending on all of this? >> > >> > Thanks! >> > Joe >> > < >> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail >> > >> > This >> > email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. >> > www.avast.com >> > < >> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail >> > >> > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 22:15:37 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:15:37 -0800 Subject: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals In-Reply-To: <001501d14e0e$5bc79450$1356bcf0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000301d14dc5$bcab1600$36014200$@gmail.com> <001501d14e0e$5bc79450$1356bcf0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <664CD9D7-04F8-4CF4-AEB6-AC41827499D2@gmail.com> Here is the restoration video. Works beautifully now: https://youtu.be/54bu0bM0Qjo Marc > On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:26 AM, Jay West wrote: > > > Marc wrote... > --------------------- > I just resurrected a nice HP 2631G dot matrix line printer: > Like here: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=316 > --------------------- > Very nice printer, I'm jealous. However, I do have an HP 2610A that will get restored/running at some point. That thing shakes the house and walks across the floor (used one in high school). > > --------------------- > It has 3 empty slots for extra character ROMs, so I am itching to install some... Anyone has ever made a dump of these character ROMs? > --------------------- > Would be surprised - given HP/DSD at the time - if there wasn't an APL character set :) > > J > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 19 22:23:25 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 23:23:25 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34186D07827645EE80948E93283D2BAB@TeoPC> Try your local freecycle or craigslist if you are in the USA. Most of my C64 machines came from freecycle, people used to just give that stuff away. A working C64 should be cheap, 1541 drives cost a $20 or so locally. The monitors vary in price but I don't think that many are around and working these days (people who ditched their C64's kept the monitors for video screens back when VCRs were still in use then they got ditched like any other CRT). If you want to play games you will need a special PC to commodore 1541 cable so you can dump .64 images to 5.25" floppies (you will need to find some blanks). If you want to mess with GEOs then things get a little more expensive since you will need dual 1541s, a RAM expansion, and a hard to find C64 mouse (looks like an Amiga OEM mouse but it isn't). -----Original Message----- From: Joe Giliberti Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 7:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: C64 system cost? Hey, I've been looking into getting a C64 system to play with. I'm looking for not just the computer, but a 1541, a datasette, color monitor, printer, joystick and modem, and some software. Eventually I'd like to get an SD card adapter, too. Can someone give me an idea as to how much I might end up spending on all of this? Thanks! Joe --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 22:51:05 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:51:05 -0800 Subject: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals In-Reply-To: <664CD9D7-04F8-4CF4-AEB6-AC41827499D2@gmail.com> References: <000301d14dc5$bcab1600$36014200$@gmail.com> <001501d14e0e$5bc79450$1356bcf0$@classiccmp.org> <664CD9D7-04F8-4CF4-AEB6-AC41827499D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > Here is the restoration video. Works beautifully now: > https://youtu.be/54bu0bM0Qjo > Marc Do you have an HP 16500 series logic analyzer? They are supposed to be able to print to an HP 2631G if you select the printer type as QuietJet. Might make for an interesting quick demo. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jan 19 23:14:30 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 21:14:30 -0800 Subject: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals In-Reply-To: References: <000301d14dc5$bcab1600$36014200$@gmail.com> <001501d14e0e$5bc79450$1356bcf0$@classiccmp.org> <664CD9D7-04F8-4CF4-AEB6-AC41827499D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <569F17B6.8090808@jwsss.com> On 1/19/2016 8:51 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Curious Marc wrote: >> Here is the restoration video. Works beautifully now: >> https://youtu.be/54bu0bM0Qjo >> Marc > Do you have an HP 16500 series logic analyzer? They are supposed to be > able to print to an HP 2631G if you select the printer type as > QuietJet. Might make for an interesting quick demo. > > I had a printer hooked up to one of ours, that will work for sure. Not sure where all the plumbing went, but still have the printer and now my own 16500's. thanks Jim From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 21:49:01 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 19:49:01 -0800 Subject: Retrocomputing on StackExchange... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1FFD788D-CE69-405C-8EE9-610F01E21AAF@gmail.com> Fantastic idea. I don't know how if it would work with our small community, but when it comes to contemporary programming, it works wonders. There is most always someone that has a solution for the most arcane language syntax or compiler bug out there. I'll be joining. Marc > On Jan 15, 2016, at 5:50 AM, geneb wrote: > > http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/94441/retro-computing > > I think this is actually a pretty good idea and StackExchange is a great platform. > > As of right now it needs 11 more people following it (and more questions). > > tnx. > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 15:11:58 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:11:58 -0500 Subject: How to set this drive up? In-Reply-To: References: <6C8554F9-7C2B-45FC-B447-6555E70243A0@gmail.com> <569E1524.5000003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <569EA69E.7010307@gmail.com> On 01/19/2016 04:25 PM, william degnan wrote: > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:51 AM, Mike wrote: > >> >> On 01/19/2016 03:30 PM, Mike wrote: >>> Can someone please help me set this drive up and what should the little >> switched be set to on the back for drive 2 >>> Sent from my iPhone. >>> >> >> -- > You can plug the serial cables into any slot. One cable connects the > computer to either drive, one cable connects the first drive into the > second. > > switches: Left down, right up. > > to test, there are many ways, but this works in most cases: > LOAD "$",9 [return] > LIST > > NOTE: many programs do not work from drive 9 without first editing the > associated initialization script. These scripts are usually written in > BASIC. > > Bill Thank you bill I would just like to copy all mu big floppys to the smaller disks seems they woyld be more safe that way my SD scad reader will be here abt day have you or anyone elde ude the sd derve for the commordore 64? From Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de Wed Jan 20 04:25:59 2016 From: Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de (Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:25:59 +0000 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? Message-ID: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373051409D@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> > ------------------------------ > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 15:39:38 -0500 > From: "js at cimmeri.com" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Re: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? > Message-ID: <569D4D8A.4080505 at cimmeri.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > . . . > You need a monitor (or converter) that supports 25khz. Here's the extent of my own research: > > 25khz 640x400 SOG monitors > > LCD > - NEC LCD1510+ (not tested) > > - NEC LCD1810 (LA-1831JMW-1) > Mac + PC -- fair performance, poor scaling. > HP 300/98543 -- works, but banded background cannot be completely > faded to black (I got rid of my 1810's for this reason). > > - Viewsonic Vp150 > HP300/98543 -- works well, great background, colors only fair. > > - Viewsonic VP181 > HP 300/98543 -- not perfect but can be adjusted ok. > banded background *can* be faded to black. > > - J. > ------------------------------ ah, this seems to become difficult... Thanks for the data and recommendations. I will have a look at low H-freq. monitors on ebay, maybe I have to revert to an old, heavy and large CRT. I see that many Viewsonic TFT monitors start at 24kHz. I also found http://www.ebay.de/itm/Gonbes-GBS-8200-CGA-15kHz-EGA-25kHz-Arcade-JAMMA-PCB-to-VGA-Video-Konverter-/111506569501 The technical data (http://www.extremehardware.webspace.virginmedia.com/ebay_images/GBS-8200.pdf) says: CGA / EGA - Auto Scan: 14.5 kHz - 16.5 kHz 23.5 kHz - 25.5 kHz <<<< this may fit the HP card? 3 0.5 kHz - 32.5 kHz Martin > ------------------------------ > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:07:27 +0000 > From: tony duell > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > Subject: RE: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? > Message-ID: > > p> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > indeed this machine has a 98204B video board (intended to work with a 35721 > monitor, > > which I don't have). I have not yet found the specs for its composite signal. > > It is normal composite video voltage levels with faster-than-normal horizontal scan rate. > If you have a frequency counter (or something that can be used as one, then put the 98204B > text board in the topmost position of the 9817, leaving out the graphics board > (the machine ill run without it) and take the top casing off the 9817. Take care to avoid the > live mains and worse on the PSU board, power it up, and check the HS and VS pins of the 6845 > (the only 40 pin IC on the board) > > Most, if not all, cheap composite video converters assume US or European TV rates and are > not going to lock to this thing. If anybody knows of an interface that will work, > I'd be interested to know about it too (I have a 9817 with the 98204B card, fortunately > I do have the right montor for it). > > -tony > ------------------------------ Tony, thank you for your explanations. As I understand, the unusual low horizontal frequency is the main problem. I saw that the card has a switch to toggle 50/60Hz vertical frequency (EU/US, original setting was at 60 Hz), but this did not help. I will see whether I can use my oscilloscope to catch the frequencies as I could not find a technical description of the 98204B. ... and I thought today such a simple problem could be easily solved with modern technology... Martin From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 20 08:44:25 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 06:44:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 2016, Rick Wilbur wrote: > Check eBay right now. A complete system with everything you want, without the SD card interface. Has 17 hours left. Bidding with the cost of shipping is at $217.00. It will cost you under $100.00 for the SD interface. You might get everything you want for around $400. > Type in at eBay search "Commodore C64 System" you will see a complete working system with computer, Monitor, floppy drive, cables, power supply and software for sale. > Regards Craigslist can be a good resource as well. If you're located in Western Washington, I'll GIVE you a system. You've got to come up with your own monitor and printer though. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 20 08:47:29 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 06:47:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 2016, drlegendre . wrote: > This coming weekend I'm supposed to receive something like 2-3 complete > C-64 systems with drives, monitors and accys. Who knows, one could be > yours?! =) > Aren't rescues fun? :) If you're looking for Commodore oriented books or magazines, you can't beat the Bombjack Archive: http://www.bombjack.org/commodore. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 20 09:22:03 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:22:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373051409D@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373051409D@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: <201601201522.KAA14168@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > ... and I thought today such a simple problem could be easily solved with mo$ It could. But in the current race to the bottom, nobody makes a monitor that does that, because investing the same resources in building for the majority market is perceived as having greater ROI. I've noticed it myself. I'm looking for a flatscreen that can sync to something my SS20 can put out - I have an Asus that syncs to it just fine, but it's not made any longer, and more modern monitors are, it appears, significantly less functional. As I've put it on a few occasions, monitor technology has imrpoved to the point where it can't do what any CRT from two decades ago could. (That's a slight exaggeration, admitted, but not much of one.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan at 757.org Wed Jan 20 09:52:51 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:52:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? In-Reply-To: <201601201522.KAA14168@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373051409D@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> <201601201522.KAA14168@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > I've noticed it myself. I'm looking for a flatscreen that can sync to > something my SS20 can put out - I have an Asus that syncs to it just > fine, but it's not made any longer, and more modern monitors are, it > appears, significantly less functional. Will the Samsung/Dell monitor with the 13w3 work? I had one on the SWS Sparcstation 5 front end to Cray J932SE. I think I have one at home, can get model #. -- Ethan O'Toole From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 10:05:22 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:05:22 -0600 Subject: How to set this drive up? In-Reply-To: <569EA69E.7010307@gmail.com> References: <6C8554F9-7C2B-45FC-B447-6555E70243A0@gmail.com> <569E1524.5000003@gmail.com> <569EA69E.7010307@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Mike wrote: > > > On 01/19/2016 04:25 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:51 AM, Mike wrote: > > > >> > >> On 01/19/2016 03:30 PM, Mike wrote: > >>> Can someone please help me set this drive up and what should the little > >> switched be set to on the back for drive 2 > >>> Sent from my iPhone. > >>> > >> > >> -- > > You can plug the serial cables into any slot. One cable connects the > > computer to either drive, one cable connects the first drive into the > > second. > > > > switches: Left down, right up. > > > > to test, there are many ways, but this works in most cases: > > LOAD "$",9 [return] > > LIST > > > > NOTE: many programs do not work from drive 9 without first editing the > > associated initialization script. These scripts are usually written in > > BASIC. > > > > Bill > Thank you bill I would just like to copy all mu big floppys to the > smaller disks seems they woyld be more safe that way my SD scad reader > will be here abt day have you or anyone elde ude the sd derve for the > commordore 64? > It would really help you get good answers if you would proofread your messages before sending. I'm having a lot of trouble piecing together what you meant to say in your previous email (this one I'm replying to, while it has typos, is not quite so opaque): > *1/ there is a serial port next going from right to left there is a > interface theb the tohhlr and i am not sure hie ti ser them then rge > powre and last but not least the on and off switch.. > Can this be use as a 2nd drive if so hoe do zi hook it up the right way? > thank you sll in sdvsnce... For more on good questions, see < http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>. -- Eric Christopherson From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 20 10:12:16 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 11:12:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373051409D@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> <201601201522.KAA14168@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201601201612.LAA06958@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I've noticed it myself. I'm looking for a flatscreen that can sync >> to something my SS20 can put out - I have an Asus that syncs to it >> just fine, but it's not made any longer, and more modern monitors >> are, it appears, significantly less functional. > Will the Samsung/Dell monitor with the 13w3 work? I don't know. None of the monitors I've tried had 13W3. (Complicating the picture a little - I didn't mention it in my mini-rant because I didn't want to make it even longer than it already was - is that I'm trying to run at 1920x1080, 1600x1200, 1920x1200, or some such resolution. The cg14 can do 1920x1080 and 1600x1200 and I've learned enough about how the resolution-setting words work that I should be able to do 1920x1200. The Asus at home - a VH236H - is 1920x1080. I don't like that it has HDMI, but I'm willing to accept that to get a decently large resolution.) > I had one on the SWS Sparcstation 5 front end to Cray J932SE. I > think I have one at home, can get model #. If its native resolution is something near the above range - on the order of two million pixels - then I'd be very interested. If you had it running at such a resolution I'd be even more interested. Silly me. I should have known a crowd this awesome would include someone who'd know of an example of what I'm looking for! /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jcw1231 at pacbell.net Wed Jan 20 13:22:31 2016 From: jcw1231 at pacbell.net (JC White) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 19:22:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Data Recovery Services References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I need to recover some files from a SCSI drive that failed over a decade ago.? Are there data recovery services that can determine if the files on the drive can be recovered or can actually do such a recovery?? Now that I think about it, I recently also had a fairly new Western Digital drive suddenly no longer be seen by any Windows PC and I really need many of the files on it.? Can anybody here tell me if drive manufacturers offer recovery services? I ask this since I saw a post somewhere that Seagate offers some sort of file recovery via cloud storage. As you can tell, I am by no means super-knowledgeable about modern systems since I am from the WANG 2200 MVP, WANG PC, and WANG Basic 2C era, and still have a few pieces of WANG hardware collecting dust. I apologize if I am posting this to a group where it is inappropriate. Thank You, John From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 13:29:49 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:29:49 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> Message-ID: <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> Also check out: http://www.jppbm.com/ m ----- Original Message ----- From: "drlegendre ." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 7:56 PM Subject: Re: C64 system cost? > One thing I forgot to mention.. while the C-64 and 1541 are fairly common > and not worth all that much, some of the accessories can be +moderately+ > valuable, so it's always a Good Idea to check out lots or complete systems > to see what rare, valuable little gems might be hiding in the pile. One > good example would be the FCIII (Final Cartridge III) and so on. > > These sorts of items can be worth $100+ each, well more than a brown C-64 > console! So read the fine print, and look carefully at the photos.. > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:52 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Hey Joe, >> >> C-64 is kinda my 'thing', and I'd be more than happy to help you join the >> fold, so to speak.. ;-) >> >> Not sure where you're located, but C-64 (partial or complete systems) show >> up from cheap to free on many local craigslist services. For the most part, >> the C-64 itself is probably the cheapest and easiest to find, after that >> the 1541 drive and then a decent monitor. The Commodore 1702 & 1084 >> monitors are very nice, but getting pretty dang old. The 64 will work with >> +any+ composite monitor, but to really get the best video, try to get an >> S-Video capable monitor (older TV..) or one of the Commodore models. >> >> The Datasette isn't particularly useful, and as such, can be had cheap. >> Like any older mechanical cassette deck, they suffer the same issues (bad >> belts, hard rollers, dirty heads, hard grease, etc.). The modems are almost >> totally useless and as such, ought to be about free. >> >> This coming weekend I'm supposed to receive something like 2-3 complete >> C-64 systems with drives, monitors and accys. Who knows, one could be >> yours?! =) >> >> Software is plentiful and effectively free. >> >> Write me off-list for any other questions you'd rather not tie up list >> space with.. >> >> -Bill >> >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Rick Wilbur wrote: >> >>> Check eBay right now. A complete system with everything you want, without >>> the SD card interface. Has 17 hours left. Bidding with the cost of shipping >>> is at $217.00. It will cost you under $100.00 for the SD interface. You >>> might get everything you want for around $400. >>> Type in at eBay search "Commodore C64 System" you will see a complete >>> working system with computer, Monitor, floppy drive, cables, power supply >>> and software for sale. >>> Regards >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> > On Jan 19, 2016, at 7:02 PM, Joe Giliberti >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Hey, >>> > >>> > I've been looking into getting a C64 system to play with. I'm looking >>> for >>> > not just the computer, but a 1541, a datasette, color monitor, printer, >>> > joystick and modem, and some software. Eventually I'd like to get an SD >>> > card adapter, too. Can someone give me an idea as to how much I might >>> end >>> > up spending on all of this? >>> > >>> > Thanks! >>> > Joe >>> > < >>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail >>> > >>> > This >>> > email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. >>> > www.avast.com >>> > < >>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail >>> > >>> > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> >> >> From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 20 13:46:29 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 11:46:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 2016, JC White wrote: > I need to recover some files from a SCSI drive that failed over a decade > ago.?? Are there data recovery services that can determine if the files > on the drive can be recovered or can actually do such a recovery??? Now > that I think about it, I recently also had a fairly new Western Digital > drive suddenly no longer be seen by any Windows PC and I really need > many of the files on it.?? Can anybody here tell me if drive > manufacturers offer recovery services? I ask this since I saw a post > somewhere that Seagate offers some sort of file recovery via cloud > storage. Recovery services tend to be expensive. You'll need to decide just how much the data is worth to you. Seriously. If the problem is "external" (a problem with the circuit board attached to the drive), then repair or replacement of that board may work. Try DriveSavers If the problem is "internal", then you will not like what it costs. But, NSA could almost certainly recover your data. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 20 13:48:24 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 11:48:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If the problem is merely corruption of the file system, but the hardware is still working well, then the repairs could be almost trivial. From jrr at flippers.com Wed Jan 20 14:35:22 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:35:22 -0800 Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <569FEF8A.8090409@flippers.com> On 01/20/2016 11:22 AM, JC White wrote: > I need to recover some files from a SCSI drive that failed over a decade ago. Are there data recovery services that can determine if the files on the drive can be recovered or can actually do such a recovery? Now that I think about it, I recently also had a fairly new Western Digital drive suddenly no longer be seen by any Windows PC and I really need many of the files on it. Can anybody here tell me if drive manufacturers offer recovery services? I ask this since I saw a post somewhere that Seagate offers some sort of file recovery via cloud storage. > As you can tell, I am by no means super-knowledgeable about modern systems since I am from the WANG 2200 MVP, WANG PC, and WANG Basic 2C era, and still have a few pieces of WANG hardware collecting dust. > I apologize if I am posting this to a group where it is inappropriate. > Thank You, > John > If the drive's PCB turned out to be the problem, could an identical drive model act as a donor for a known-to-be-good PCB? Of course this would depend on the model of the drive. Perhaps you can share that info and experts here may have better ideas. Then you just need to find the same model...and I just drilled out four old SCSI drives the other day to kill the data dead (software company's drives). Didn't think to save the PCBs... This could also be a 'shake & bake' drive that needs a bit of trickery to get spinning... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jan 20 16:00:33 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 16:00:33 -0600 Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: <569FEF8A.8090409@flippers.com> References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <569FEF8A.8090409@flippers.com> Message-ID: <20160120220033.GA9692@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:35:22PM -0800, John Robertson wrote: > If the drive's PCB turned out to be the problem, could an identical > drive model act as a donor for a known-to-be-good PCB? I've done this on modern drives. It is not particularly tricky. mcl From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jan 20 16:39:32 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 17:39:32 -0500 Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: <20160120220033.GA9692@lonesome.com> References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <569FEF8A.8090409@flippers.com> <20160120220033.GA9692@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <56A00CA4.2050602@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-01-20 5:00 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:35:22PM -0800, John Robertson wrote: >> If the drive's PCB turned out to be the problem, could an identical >> drive model act as a donor for a known-to-be-good PCB? > > I've done this on modern drives. It is not particularly tricky. Same. To John: Where are you located? That will probably influence recommendations. --Toby > > mcl > From axelsson at acc.umu.se Wed Jan 20 16:45:49 2016 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 23:45:49 +0100 Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: <569FEF8A.8090409@flippers.com> References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <569FEF8A.8090409@flippers.com> Message-ID: <56A00E1D.6010707@acc.umu.se> Den 2016-01-20 kl. 21:35, skrev John Robertson: > On 01/20/2016 11:22 AM, JC White wrote: >> I need to recover some files from a SCSI drive that failed over a >> decade ago. Are there data recovery services that can determine if >> the files on the drive can be recovered or can actually do such a >> recovery? Now that I think about it, I recently also had a fairly >> new Western Digital drive suddenly no longer be seen by any Windows >> PC and I really need many of the files on it. Can anybody here tell >> me if drive manufacturers offer recovery services? I ask this since I >> saw a post somewhere that Seagate offers some sort of file recovery >> via cloud storage. >> As you can tell, I am by no means super-knowledgeable about modern >> systems since I am from the WANG 2200 MVP, WANG PC, and WANG Basic 2C >> era, and still have a few pieces of WANG hardware collecting dust. >> I apologize if I am posting this to a group where it is inappropriate. >> Thank You, >> John >> > If the drive's PCB turned out to be the problem, could an identical > drive model act as a donor for a known-to-be-good PCB? Of course this > would depend on the model of the drive. Perhaps you can share that > info and experts here may have better ideas. > > Then you just need to find the same model...and I just drilled out > four old SCSI drives the other day to kill the data dead (software > company's drives). Didn't think to save the PCBs... > > This could also be a 'shake & bake' drive that needs a bit of trickery > to get spinning... > > John :-#)# > Replacing the drive board could work. Some modern drives saves a table with data about the media in a on board flash that needs to be moved to the new board. I've done that a couple of times with good results when the failure was on the board. (In one case obvious physically damaged board.) There are several companies that sells replacement boards on eBay and they usually require your old board first to move the flash, then you get back the broken board and a second one with the correct flash. By the way, I'm getting a copy of everything from cctalk without being subscribed to it so I can't remove that subscription. It means I'm getting dual copies for everything on cctech and that's a bit annoying, could someone with access to the list server remove me from cctalk, please. I understand that this originated in some server upgrade / crash / major outage and I was hoping it would go back to normal after a while... it didn't. Thanks for all the work whoever you are that manages this list. :-) G?ran From jrr at flippers.com Wed Jan 20 16:53:07 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:53:07 -0800 Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: <20160120220033.GA9692@lonesome.com> References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <569FEF8A.8090409@flippers.com> <20160120220033.GA9692@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <56A00FD3.6010903@flippers.com> On 01/20/2016 2:00 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:35:22PM -0800, John Robertson wrote: >> If the drive's PCB turned out to be the problem, could an identical >> drive model act as a donor for a known-to-be-good PCB? > I've done this on modern drives. It is not particularly tricky. > > mcl > Yes, I know, it depends on the age of the drive as I suspect early ones were possibly tuned to the mechanics of the drive. Nothing made after 2000 is likely to care much though. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 17:06:06 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 17:06:06 -0600 Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: <20160120220033.GA9692@lonesome.com> References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <569FEF8A.8090409@flippers.com> <20160120220033.GA9692@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20160120230605.GE89321@gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:35:22PM -0800, John Robertson wrote: > > If the drive's PCB turned out to be the problem, could an identical > > drive model act as a donor for a known-to-be-good PCB? > > I've done this on modern drives. It is not particularly tricky. > > mcl It can work. But I remember reading that each PCB keeps track of bad physical blocks; if you transplant the PCB from another drive, you might end up with a different set of bad blocks beings saved. I still haven't gotten rich enough to use his services, but I've talked to this guy named Scott Moulton, who charges $50 evaluation fee + $750 per drive. He also teaches classes on doing it yourself (for big bucks). His web site is . (On one of mine, I was hoping data recovery would be cheap due to the cause being in the filesystem rather than the media, but he charges the same rate regardless.) -- Eric Christopherson From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 20 18:20:07 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:20:07 -0600 Subject: HP 2610A printer Message-ID: <000a01d153e1$7bdea1b0$739be510$@classiccmp.org> Someone asked a question about it privately, I researched today and found the answers so I'll post here as well for posterity. The HP 2610A printer that I have.... 2610A was the HP designation for the Control Data Corporation 9322 Printer. HP sold the printer basically unmodified (as far as I can tell) and slapped their label on it. Mine seems to be in rather good condition so I suspect it will be restorable. In addition, I unearthed a full set of manuals/docs for the thing. Most manuals I have are HP ones, but a few in the binder are CDC manuals for it. At the same time, I also found several binders of docs for the HP 2754 (also have one of those). 2754 is the HP designation for the Teletype model 35KSR. HP sold the printing terminal/reader/punch with minor modifications and slapped their label on it. I have a complete set of docs, mostly HP branded but some (wiring lists, lubrication, disassembly, etc.) are Teletype branded. Various select pictures of the manual pages are at https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02 J From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Wed Jan 20 18:26:24 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:26:24 -0600 Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: <20160120230605.GE89321@gmail.com> References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <569FEF8A.8090409@flippers.com> <20160120220033.GA9692@lonesome.com> <20160120230605.GE89321@gmail.com> Message-ID: On January 20, 2016 at 5:06:19 PM, Eric Christopherson (echristopherson at gmail.com) wrote: It can work. But I remember reading that each PCB keeps track of bad? physical blocks; if you transplant the PCB from another drive, you might? end up with a different set of bad blocks beings saved.? I still haven't gotten rich enough to use his services, but I've talked? to this guy named Scott Moulton, who charges $50 evaluation fee + $750? per drive. He also teaches classes on doing it yourself (for big bucks).? His web site is .? I?ve worked with Scott Moulton. He?s reasonable compared to some vendors. YMMV, but I find him to be extremely helpful. You can email his firm and they will talk over options with you before you send the drive in. The $50 does not obligate you to anything (other than the $50). I can?t recall exactly what he told me but many modern drives have a chip on it that would need to be moved to a donor PCB in order to spin up the drive. I want to say there is some encryption involved the the chip provides. It?s been too long since I received that email from him and I can?t find it. Also, it?s worth doing a little bit of Googling for modern drives and problems. I got _very_ lucky one day with a drive which was known to have a firmware bug in it that would occasionally lose its ability to determine the drive size. With help from the web, I was able to rig up a USB-to-TTL converter, connect to certain pins on the drive, then access the firmware shell and repair the drive. I don?t want to give any indication that this was easy. It took quite a few days of trying. Not only did it involve the converter, but there was a process where you?d insert paper between certain PCB contacts and the hard drive to interrupt the spin-up process as that was your window to get access to the firmware. But it actually worked and I was able to image the drive and move the contents to a new drive.? So put the model number into Google and see if you can find a common failure that has a fix.? Cheers, m From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 20:04:14 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 20:04:14 -0600 Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> Message-ID: Err... http://www.jppbm.com/ is last updated in 2011.. and their products catalog is listed as the "1996 version".. Perhaps a 'legacy' site, as we say? Hard to believe you can get a complete C64 system with C-64 console, a 1701/1702 monitor, TWO joysticks, TWO 1541 drives and cables for $50.00 CDN.. =) On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Also check out: > > http://www.jppbm.com/ > > m > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "drlegendre ." > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 7:56 PM > Subject: Re: C64 system cost? > > > > One thing I forgot to mention.. while the C-64 and 1541 are fairly common > > and not worth all that much, some of the accessories can be +moderately+ > > valuable, so it's always a Good Idea to check out lots or complete > systems > > to see what rare, valuable little gems might be hiding in the pile. One > > good example would be the FCIII (Final Cartridge III) and so on. > > > > These sorts of items can be worth $100+ each, well more than a brown C-64 > > console! So read the fine print, and look carefully at the photos.. > > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:52 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: > > > >> Hey Joe, > >> > >> C-64 is kinda my 'thing', and I'd be more than happy to help you join > the > >> fold, so to speak.. ;-) > >> > >> Not sure where you're located, but C-64 (partial or complete systems) > show > >> up from cheap to free on many local craigslist services. For the most > part, > >> the C-64 itself is probably the cheapest and easiest to find, after that > >> the 1541 drive and then a decent monitor. The Commodore 1702 & 1084 > >> monitors are very nice, but getting pretty dang old. The 64 will work > with > >> +any+ composite monitor, but to really get the best video, try to get an > >> S-Video capable monitor (older TV..) or one of the Commodore models. > >> > >> The Datasette isn't particularly useful, and as such, can be had cheap. > >> Like any older mechanical cassette deck, they suffer the same issues > (bad > >> belts, hard rollers, dirty heads, hard grease, etc.). The modems are > almost > >> totally useless and as such, ought to be about free. > >> > >> This coming weekend I'm supposed to receive something like 2-3 complete > >> C-64 systems with drives, monitors and accys. Who knows, one could be > >> yours?! =) > >> > >> Software is plentiful and effectively free. > >> > >> Write me off-list for any other questions you'd rather not tie up list > >> space with.. > >> > >> -Bill > >> > >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Rick Wilbur wrote: > >> > >>> Check eBay right now. A complete system with everything you want, > without > >>> the SD card interface. Has 17 hours left. Bidding with the cost of > shipping > >>> is at $217.00. It will cost you under $100.00 for the SD interface. You > >>> might get everything you want for around $400. > >>> Type in at eBay search "Commodore C64 System" you will see a complete > >>> working system with computer, Monitor, floppy drive, cables, power > supply > >>> and software for sale. > >>> Regards > >>> Sent from my iPad > >>> > >>> > On Jan 19, 2016, at 7:02 PM, Joe Giliberti > >>> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > Hey, > >>> > > >>> > I've been looking into getting a C64 system to play with. I'm looking > >>> for > >>> > not just the computer, but a 1541, a datasette, color monitor, > printer, > >>> > joystick and modem, and some software. Eventually I'd like to get an > SD > >>> > card adapter, too. Can someone give me an idea as to how much I might > >>> end > >>> > up spending on all of this? > >>> > > >>> > Thanks! > >>> > Joe > >>> > < > >>> > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail > >>> > > >>> > This > >>> > email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. > >>> > www.avast.com > >>> > < > >>> > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail > >>> > > >>> > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > >>> > >> > >> > From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 21:23:24 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:23:24 -0600 Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 8:04 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Err... > > http://www.jppbm.com/ is last updated in 2011.. and their products catalog > is listed as the "1996 version".. > > Perhaps a 'legacy' site, as we say? Hard to believe you can get a complete > C64 system with C-64 console, a 1701/1702 monitor, TWO joysticks, TWO 1541 > drives and cables for $50.00 CDN.. =) Joe is still in business and attends VCF Midwest every year. Can't say what his pricing looks like these days but he's got a lot of inventory (especially software) and is always willing to make a deal. j From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 20 21:45:14 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:45:14 -0600 Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> Message-ID: <56A0544A.5010506@jbrain.com> On 1/20/2016 9:23 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 8:04 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> Err... >> >> http://www.jppbm.com/ is last updated in 2011.. and their products catalog >> is listed as the "1996 version".. >> >> Perhaps a 'legacy' site, as we say? Hard to believe you can get a complete >> C64 system with C-64 console, a 1701/1702 monitor, TWO joysticks, TWO 1541 >> drives and cables for $50.00 CDN.. =) > Joe is still in business and attends VCF Midwest every year. Can't > say what his pricing looks like these days but he's got a lot of > inventory (especially software) and is always willing to make a deal. > > j I agree. Joe's got plenty of inventory, in spite of his dated web site. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 23:04:26 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 00:04:26 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> <56A0544A.5010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 10:45 PM Subject: Re: C64 system cost? > On 1/20/2016 9:23 PM, Jason T wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 8:04 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >>> Err... >>> >>> http://www.jppbm.com/ is last updated in 2011.. and their products catalog >>> is listed as the "1996 version".. >>> >>> Perhaps a 'legacy' site, as we say? Hard to believe you can get a complete >>> C64 system with C-64 console, a 1701/1702 monitor, TWO joysticks, TWO 1541 >>> drives and cables for $50.00 CDN.. =) >> Joe is still in business and attends VCF Midwest every year. Can't >> say what his pricing looks like these days but he's got a lot of >> inventory (especially software) and is always willing to make a deal. >> >> j > I agree. Joe's got plenty of inventory, in spite of his dated web site. > > Jim > > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com Sorry, I didn't notice that Joe's site is so out of date; I'll probably see him tomorrow and I'll be sure to mention it. TPUG's store has been officially closed for around two years now and its web page is also out of date, but there are still a few C64s, 1541s and power supplies in inventory; monitors and joy sticks are all gone and I'm not sure about the cable situation: http://tpug.icomm.ca/store/saleitems.pdf Note that the current TPUG web site is now here: http://www.tpug.ca/ m From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 23:43:22 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:43:22 -0800 Subject: TI System V? Message-ID: <56A06FFA.7090008@gmail.com> Anyone have any idea where one might track down a copy of TI System V for the S1500 series? I've had these two TI UNIX systems for awhile now, a TI S1505 and a TI S1507 (68030 and 68040-based, respectively). They came without hard drives or OS media and so they've basically been doorstops. I asked around about OS media back when I got them (in 2013) and at the time I got no leads; I'm guessing things probably haven't changed, but I figured I'd ask again just in case... Seem like nice machines, wish I could do something with 'em... - Josh From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jan 20 23:54:12 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 23:54:12 -0600 Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: <56A00FD3.6010903@flippers.com> References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <569FEF8A.8090409@flippers.com> <20160120220033.GA9692@lonesome.com> <56A00FD3.6010903@flippers.com> Message-ID: <20160121055412.GD21379@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 02:53:07PM -0800, John Robertson wrote: > Yes, I know, it depends on the age of the drive as I suspect early ones were > possibly tuned to the mechanics of the drive. Nothing made after 2000 is > likely to care much though. Of course I should have stated that I used that drive _exactly once_ to archive the bits off of it. There is no way I would run something like that in production ever again (even on a desktop). In this case if some data had fallen due to bad-block-rot, it would still have been better than having 0%. (Really, there were a small number of files that had not been backed up elsewhere.) mcl From peter at rittwage.com Wed Jan 20 13:26:25 2016 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:26:25 -0500 Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3c2ed3c2b2c7dfbfe9f96e1571421675.squirrel@rittwage.com> > I need to recover some files from a SCSI drive that failed over a decade > ago.?? Are there data recovery services that can determine if the files on > the drive can be recovered or can actually do such a recovery??? Now that > I think about it, I recently also had a fairly new Western Digital drive > suddenly no longer be seen by any Windows PC and I really need many of the > files on it.?? Can anybody here tell me if drive manufacturers offer > recovery services? I ask this since I saw a post somewhere that Seagate > offers some sort of file recovery via cloud storage. > As you can tell, I am by no means super-knowledgeable about modern systems > since I am from the WANG 2200 MVP, WANG PC, and WANG Basic 2C era, and > still have a few pieces of WANG hardware collecting dust. > I apologize if I am posting this to a group where it is inappropriate. > Thank You, > John > Hi John, There are many of them- we've used OnTrack (Kroll) and DriveSavers. The services can be expensive (in the thousands, typically) so the data has to be pretty valuable to you in order to proceed. -Pete From peter at rittwage.com Wed Jan 20 13:37:49 2016 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:37:49 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> Message-ID: That is an extremely good price... However, the site is very old and he takes a very long time to reply, typically. (Months and months, if ever!) -Pete > Also check out: > > http://www.jppbm.com/ > > m > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "drlegendre ." > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 7:56 PM > Subject: Re: C64 system cost? > > >> One thing I forgot to mention.. while the C-64 and 1541 are fairly >> common >> and not worth all that much, some of the accessories can be +moderately+ >> valuable, so it's always a Good Idea to check out lots or complete >> systems >> to see what rare, valuable little gems might be hiding in the pile. One >> good example would be the FCIII (Final Cartridge III) and so on. >> >> These sorts of items can be worth $100+ each, well more than a brown >> C-64 >> console! So read the fine print, and look carefully at the photos.. >> >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:52 PM, drlegendre . >> wrote: >> >>> Hey Joe, >>> >>> C-64 is kinda my 'thing', and I'd be more than happy to help you join >>> the >>> fold, so to speak.. ;-) >>> >>> Not sure where you're located, but C-64 (partial or complete systems) >>> show >>> up from cheap to free on many local craigslist services. For the most >>> part, >>> the C-64 itself is probably the cheapest and easiest to find, after >>> that >>> the 1541 drive and then a decent monitor. The Commodore 1702 & 1084 >>> monitors are very nice, but getting pretty dang old. The 64 will work >>> with >>> +any+ composite monitor, but to really get the best video, try to get >>> an >>> S-Video capable monitor (older TV..) or one of the Commodore models. >>> >>> The Datasette isn't particularly useful, and as such, can be had cheap. >>> Like any older mechanical cassette deck, they suffer the same issues >>> (bad >>> belts, hard rollers, dirty heads, hard grease, etc.). The modems are >>> almost >>> totally useless and as such, ought to be about free. >>> >>> This coming weekend I'm supposed to receive something like 2-3 complete >>> C-64 systems with drives, monitors and accys. Who knows, one could be >>> yours?! =) >>> >>> Software is plentiful and effectively free. >>> >>> Write me off-list for any other questions you'd rather not tie up list >>> space with.. >>> >>> -Bill >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Rick Wilbur wrote: >>> >>>> Check eBay right now. A complete system with everything you want, >>>> without >>>> the SD card interface. Has 17 hours left. Bidding with the cost of >>>> shipping >>>> is at $217.00. It will cost you under $100.00 for the SD interface. >>>> You >>>> might get everything you want for around $400. >>>> Type in at eBay search "Commodore C64 System" you will see a complete >>>> working system with computer, Monitor, floppy drive, cables, power >>>> supply >>>> and software for sale. >>>> Regards >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> > On Jan 19, 2016, at 7:02 PM, Joe Giliberti >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Hey, >>>> > >>>> > I've been looking into getting a C64 system to play with. I'm >>>> looking >>>> for >>>> > not just the computer, but a 1541, a datasette, color monitor, >>>> printer, >>>> > joystick and modem, and some software. Eventually I'd like to get an >>>> SD >>>> > card adapter, too. Can someone give me an idea as to how much I >>>> might >>>> end >>>> > up spending on all of this? >>>> > >>>> > Thanks! >>>> > Joe >>>> > < >>>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail >>>> > >>>> > This >>>> > email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. >>>> > www.avast.com >>>> > < >>>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail >>>> > >>>> > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>> >>> >>> > From rodsmallwood at btinternet.com Wed Jan 20 16:36:55 2016 From: rodsmallwood at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 22:36:55 +0000 Subject: DECMate III + Message-ID: <56A00C07.8070309@btinternet.com> Does anybody have any experience with these. This one has the hard disk. You can hear it seek on startup. Setup works but it does not boot from the hard drive and just halts when presented with a system disk on a floppy. Rod From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jan 21 00:11:30 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 00:11:30 -0600 Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> Message-ID: <56A07692.2070007@jbrain.com> On 1/20/2016 1:37 PM, Pete Rittwage wrote: > That is an extremely good price... However, the site is very old and he > takes a very long time to reply, typically. (Months and months, if ever!) Is that recently? I know Joe's daddied and that interrupted things, but I thought he has been responsive lately. I'd still contact him. Mike S is on here, and I'm on the toronto mailing list, where lots of people close to Joe can get to him if you don't get a response. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 21 00:30:54 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 22:30:54 -0800 Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: <3c2ed3c2b2c7dfbfe9f96e1571421675.squirrel@rittwage.com> References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <3c2ed3c2b2c7dfbfe9f96e1571421675.squirrel@rittwage.com> Message-ID: <56A07B1E.207@sydex.com> On 01/20/2016 11:26 AM, Pete Rittwage wrote: > The services can be expensive (in the thousands, typically) so the data has > to be pretty valuable to you in order to proceed. I'll second Drivesavers--they've recovered very damaged drives, including a few buried in mud after a hurricaine. They'll rebuild a drive if they have to. They're also one of the few companies who have working relationships with SSD makers and claim that they can un-brick many dead SSDs. Nice people, too. But yes, expensive, very. --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 00:58:56 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 01:58:56 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> <56A07692.2070007@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <9B86A30471EA48F49649B21B8542E55D@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 1:11 AM Subject: Re: C64 system cost? > On 1/20/2016 1:37 PM, Pete Rittwage wrote: >> That is an extremely good price... However, the site is very old and he >> takes a very long time to reply, typically. (Months and months, if ever!) > Is that recently? I know Joe's daddied and that interrupted things, but > I thought he has been responsive lately. > > I'd still contact him. Mike S is on here, and I'm on the toronto > mailing list, where lots of people close to Joe can get to him if you > don't get a response. > > Jim I'll give Joe a printout of these messages when I see him tomorrow to let him know what folks are saying about him; as Jim says he's usually pretty good but s**t happens sometimes. I've been a little flakey myself at times; if anyone's waiting to hear from me about anything, please send me a reminder. m (MikeS) From pchatt30 at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 05:50:27 2016 From: pchatt30 at gmail.com (Peter Faraday) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 11:50:27 +0000 Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: <56A07B1E.207@sydex.com> References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <3c2ed3c2b2c7dfbfe9f96e1571421675.squirrel@rittwage.com> <56A07B1E.207@sydex.com> Message-ID: Iv had some luck with drives where the head gets suck in the park position. If the drive spins up then shuts down it could be this. Bit of an agricultural fix but, take the lid off and give the head a slight nudge off the centre and get the lid back on quick. I'm lead to believe this will only work with old drives dew to the tolerances in gap of head to platter. Big risk with this is crashing the head into the disk but iv used it a few time with 100% success. The drives were from early 90s On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:30 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/20/2016 11:26 AM, Pete Rittwage wrote: > > The services can be expensive (in the thousands, typically) so the data has >> to be pretty valuable to you in order to proceed. >> > > I'll second Drivesavers--they've recovered very damaged drives, including > a few buried in mud after a hurricaine. They'll rebuild a drive if they > have to. > > They're also one of the few companies who have working relationships with > SSD makers and claim that they can un-brick many dead SSDs. > > Nice people, too. But yes, expensive, very. > > --Chuck > > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 05:53:59 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:53:59 +0100 Subject: Data Recovery Services In-Reply-To: References: <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1363522655.6585853.1453317751439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <3c2ed3c2b2c7dfbfe9f96e1571421675.squirrel@rittwage.com> <56A07B1E.207@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 21 January 2016 at 12:50, Peter Faraday wrote: > Iv had some luck with drives where the head gets suck in the park position. > If the drive spins up then shuts down it could be this. Bit of an > agricultural fix but, take the lid off and give the head a slight nudge off > the centre and get the lid back on quick. I'm lead to believe this will > only work with old drives dew to the tolerances in gap of head to platter. > Big risk with this is crashing the head into the disk but iv used it a few > time with 100% success. The drives were from early 90s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction#Hard_disk_drives -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 07:30:43 2016 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 08:30:43 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: <9B86A30471EA48F49649B21B8542E55D@310e2> References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> <56A07692.2070007@jbrain.com> <9B86A30471EA48F49649B21B8542E55D@310e2> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 1:58 AM, Mike Stein wrote [...] > > I'll give Joe a printout of these messages when I see him tomorrow to let > him know what folks are saying about him; as Jim says he's usually pretty > good but s**t happens sometimes. > Mike Stein, while you're printing and delivering these, I'd like to offer my opinion that, as much as I appreciate a contemporary, high-performance, hyper-complex web stack (I work on this stuff for my career), there's certainly beauty in a plain-jane http server that's easily manageable by one guy, simple and reliable. I looked at it and there's no shame in Jim's stuff -- it's quite adequate and arguably exactly the right tool for the job. thx jake From Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de Thu Jan 21 10:51:25 2016 From: Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de (Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 16:51:25 +0000 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? Message-ID: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305144D5@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Yesterday I checked the 9000/217 98204B combo with my oscilloscope and I can confirm the 25kHz horz. frequency (1V down to 0.3V pulses every 40 us). I cannot measure the pixel clock as my oscilloscope was too cheap (I had to compromise) and thus cannot sample at higher MHz rates. I only see that it goes from 1V to approx. 2.2V. Just for my understanding: if I do the math: 512 pixels x 400 rows = 204'800 pixels at 50 Hz I end up with 10.2 MHz and at 60 Hz = 12.3 MHz. There is more "room" required for the retrace time, probably another 10% or so? So I understand that the monitor must be capable of ~25 kHz and 10...14 MHz and that I better try before buy. It is difficult to find specs for these HP 9000 video boards. In case it is useful for someone ... my list below is still missing DIO-bus type (1 or 2) and signal frequencies. 98204B Video Board medium resolution (512x390) monochrome for 35721 monitor, DIO-1 98542A Monochrome Video Board medium resolution (512x400) monochrome 98543A Color Video Board medium resolution (512x400) 16 colors 98544B Monochrome Video Board high resolution (1024x768) monochrome 98545A Color Video Board high resolution (1024x768) 16 colors 98546A/B Monochrome Video Board medium resolution (512x390) monochrome alpha/graphics, for 216/217 display compatibility (a pair of cards, compatible with 2136 and 217 displays (512x390, 25x80)) 98547A Color Video Board high resolution (1024x768) 64 colors 98548A Monochrome Video Board high resolution (1280x1024) high performance 98549A Color Video Board high resolution (1280x1024) high performance 98550A Color Video Board high resolution (1280x1024) high performance 98700A Graphics Display Station high resolution (1024x768) 256 colors 98710A Graphics Accelerator optional for 98700A 98720A High Performance Board high resolution (1280x1024) nur HP-UX, requires 98724AA interface and 98784A monitor 98730A High Performance Board high resolution (1280x1024) nur HP-UX 98722 memory upgrade optional for 98720A Martin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 13:51:46 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:51:46 +0000 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305144D5@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305144D5@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: > Just for my understanding: if I do the math: 512 pixels x 400 rows = 204'800 pixels > at 50 Hz I end up with 10.2 MHz and at 60 Hz = 12.3 MHz. > There is more "room" required for the retrace time, probably another 10% or so? To avoid the inaccuracies from the unknown vertical retrace time (and unused lines, etc) I would say that 512 pixels per line and 25kHz line time -> a pixel rate of at least 12.8MHz. It will be higher than that due to the horizontal retrace time, of course > So I understand that the monitor must be capable of ~25 kHz and 10...14 MHz and that > I better try before buy. Yes. > It is difficult to find specs for these HP 9000 video boards. I have no idea as to the resolution, but there is an HP98204A that outputs TV rate (US or European I think) video. -tony From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 14:48:25 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:48:25 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> <56A07692.2070007@jbrain.com> <9B86A30471EA48F49649B21B8542E55D@310e2> Message-ID: <1013C45C81F14302BE8CB606E7802FDA@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jacob Ritorto" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 8:30 AM Subject: Re: C64 system cost? > On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 1:58 AM, Mike Stein wrote > [...] >> >> I'll give Joe a printout of these messages when I see him tomorrow to let >> him know what folks are saying about him; as Jim says he's usually pretty >> good but s**t happens sometimes. >> > > Mike Stein, while you're printing and delivering these, I'd like to offer > my opinion that, as much as I appreciate a contemporary, high-performance, > hyper-complex web stack (I work on this stuff for my career), there's > certainly beauty in a plain-jane http server that's easily manageable by > one guy, simple and reliable. I looked at it and there's no shame in Jim's > stuff -- it's quite adequate and arguably exactly the right tool for the > job. > > thx > jake Sorry, Jake, not sure what you're trying to say. m From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 14:52:24 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:52:24 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? In-Reply-To: <1013C45C81F14302BE8CB606E7802FDA@310e2> References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> <56A07692.2070007@jbrain.com> <9B86A30471EA48F49649B21B8542E55D@310e2> <1013C45C81F14302BE8CB606E7802FDA@310e2> Message-ID: > > > >> > > > > Mike Stein, while you're printing and delivering these, I'd like to offer > > my opinion that, as much as I appreciate a contemporary, > high-performance, > > hyper-complex web stack (I work on this stuff for my career), there's > > certainly beauty in a plain-jane http server that's easily manageable by > > one guy, simple and reliable. I looked at it and there's no shame in > Jim's > > stuff -- it's quite adequate and arguably exactly the right tool for the > > job. > > > > thx > > jake > > Sorry, Jake, not sure what you're trying to say. > > m > Mike, I think Jake means that it's ok to have a simple web site. Bill -- @ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg
Youtube: @billdeg
Unauthorized Bio From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 15:00:24 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 16:00:24 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> <56A07692.2070007@jbrain.com> <9B86A30471EA48F49649B21B8542E55D@310e2> <1013C45C81F14302BE8CB606E7802FDA@310e2> Message-ID: <40AB7C06DCB94E0AB72CD177D92BC855@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "william degnan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 3:52 PM Subject: Re: C64 system cost? > > >> >> >> >> > >> > Mike Stein, while you're printing and delivering these, I'd like to offer >> > my opinion that, as much as I appreciate a contemporary, >> high-performance, >> > hyper-complex web stack (I work on this stuff for my career), there's >> > certainly beauty in a plain-jane http server that's easily manageable by >> > one guy, simple and reliable. I looked at it and there's no shame in >> Jim's >> > stuff -- it's quite adequate and arguably exactly the right tool for the >> > job. >> > >> > thx >> > jake >> >> Sorry, Jake, not sure what you're trying to say. >> >> m >> > > > Mike, > I think Jake means that it's ok to have a simple web site. > Bill Ah, Joe's site, not Jim's; got it. Agreed; too many sites ignore that there are still folks out there with pay-per-byte or dial-up access, not to mention the frustration of wading through a lot of prettifying fluff. m From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Thu Jan 21 15:38:52 2016 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:38:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Looking for an IBM SP/2 (the supercomputer, not a typo) Message-ID: I was contacted by a guy who works for a computing lab at a major US University on the East Coast who is looking for an SP/2 they can display in their lobby. I have one, but it'll be a monumental pain in the to get out of here. I wanted to drop a line and see if anyone had one they'd be willing to part with in the US, preferably near-ish to the right coast. Thanks all; - JP From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 21 15:58:23 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 21:58:23 -0000 Subject: Any Collectors in Italy, near Milan? Message-ID: <060f01d15496$d96111a0$8c2334e0$@ntlworld.com> I am going to be visiting Milan in a few weeks' time. I was wondering if there are any collectors on this list who live in that area, who would like to show off their collection, if I can get a bit of time away from the family? I have a particular interest in DEC machines, but other makes also interest me. If so, please get in touch Regards Rob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 21 17:55:46 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 23:55:46 +0000 Subject: Any Collectors in Italy, near Milan? In-Reply-To: <060f01d15496$d96111a0$8c2334e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <060f01d15496$d96111a0$8c2334e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Do a search for Olivetti M20. You'll find several people in Italy. The M20 was a Z8000 processor and is more interesting than the 8088/86 machines. Even so, they may connect you to other DEC collectors. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Robert Jarratt Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 1:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Any Collectors in Italy, near Milan? I am going to be visiting Milan in a few weeks' time. I was wondering if there are any collectors on this list who live in that area, who would like to show off their collection, if I can get a bit of time away from the family? I have a particular interest in DEC machines, but other makes also interest me. If so, please get in touch Regards Rob From supervinx at libero.it Thu Jan 21 18:06:26 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 01:06:26 +0100 Subject: Any Collectors in Italy, near Milan? In-Reply-To: References: <060f01d15496$d96111a0$8c2334e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1453421186.2350.1.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Well.. I'm in Italy but far away... (in the south) You can visit MuPin in Turin. Let me think a bit... I'll post something else. There's a lot of collector, but they don't read this list... -- Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) --==ooOoo==-- My computer collection: http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum --==ooOoo==-- You can reach me at: www.supervinx.com www.facebook.com/supervinx http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx http://www.myspace.com/supervinx From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 18:18:55 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 22:18:55 -0200 Subject: Any Collectors in Italy, near Milan? In-Reply-To: <1453421186.2350.1.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <060f01d15496$d96111a0$8c2334e0$@ntlworld.com> <1453421186.2350.1.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: If some italian friend could find me one of these... http://fraelbruc100.msxit.org/ :) 2016-01-21 22:06 GMT-02:00 supervinx : > Well.. I'm in Italy but far away... (in the south) > You can visit MuPin in Turin. > Let me think a bit... I'll post something else. > There's a lot of collector, but they don't read this list... > -- > Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) > > --==ooOoo==-- > My computer collection: > http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum > > --==ooOoo==-- > You can reach me at: > www.supervinx.com > www.facebook.com/supervinx > http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx > http://www.myspace.com/supervinx > > From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 19:56:35 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:56:35 -0600 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape Message-ID: I'm tossing this out here as a conversation-starter more than a request for help, although I may end up putting the knowledge to use. Today I received a set of original HP paper tapes for the 2115a machine. I don't know if they've been archived or not - there are dozens of HP tapes on bitsavers and I'll have to make a P/N list and compare them. The real problem is they're in horrible shape. Decades of basement moisture and likely a few critters have turned them blackened, moldy and stuck together. So, what to do? How to get to the data without a bio-hazardous payload along for the ride? My thoughts go toward sunlight and/or U/V light (like a hair salon sanitizer,) rubber gloves and a mask, isopropyl alcohol, careful picking apart of layers, etc. I'd think one thing in our favor is that holes in paper are going to be easier to read than ink on paper. So Part 1 is getting them into readable condition, with part 2 being the actual reading. Any experience out there? -j From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 20:04:43 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:04:43 -0800 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Jason T wrote: > I'm tossing this out here as a conversation-starter more than a > request for help, although I may end up putting the knowledge to use. > Today I received a set of original HP paper tapes for the 2115a > machine. I don't know if they've been archived or not - there are > dozens of HP tapes on bitsavers and I'll have to make a P/N list and > compare them. The real problem is they're in horrible shape. Decades > of basement moisture and likely a few critters have turned them > blackened, moldy and stuck together. > > So, what to do? How to get to the data without a bio-hazardous > payload along for the ride? My thoughts go toward sunlight and/or U/V > light (like a hair salon sanitizer,) rubber gloves and a mask, > isopropyl alcohol, careful picking apart of layers, etc. I'd think > one thing in our favor is that holes in paper are going to be easier > to read than ink on paper. So Part 1 is getting them into readable > condition, with part 2 being the actual reading. > > For part 2, personally, I would take movies of the paper tape moving and doing image analysis to recover that data; this occurs to me because I've done a fair bit of image recognition software, so this solution may not be feasible for all. If you sent me a sample movie, I would make a stab at writing some data recovery software. -- Charles From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jan 21 20:05:20 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:05:20 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Re: Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question In-Reply-To: <56908BC3.4030100@jbrain.com> References: <56908BC3.4030100@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <56A18E60.30000@jbrain.com> Hmm, no one able to help? -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 22:25:39 -0600 From: Jim Brain To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts On 12/12/2015 10:52 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Jim Brain wrote: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-KAYPRO-4-COMPUTER-MOTHERBOARD-/331730690952? >> >> The non soldermask boad on top of the main unit intrigues me. Does anyone >> know what it is? >> >> Jim > The board says Centram Systems, Inc, Camp Hill, Pa. > > There is a marketing blurb in the August 15, 1983 issue of > Computerworld. Don't know if it is for that exact board. > > Long ugly link: > https://books.google.com/books?id=soGti0kvtgwC&pg=RA1-PA71&lpg=RA1-PA71&dq=centram-systems+inc+kaypro&source=bl&ots=6Vnr0qZn3W&sig=otazIdpkt4Y5Oyrp9jjKKrv_dq4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHtaP34tbJAhUL9mMKHWnaDYQQ6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=centram-systems%20inc%20kaypro Sorry for the delayed update, but after a few relistings, I was able to secure the PCB for a reasonable price. It is indeed the board listed on the link, and here is another link: https://books.google.com/books?id=7xNVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA267&lpg=PA267&dq=the+web+nt+centram+systems+inc+kaypro&source=bl&ots=xy6yxBjbgc&sig=ByqG8cnOV0sZbxZDf3rKwxA30rg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirpYH76pvKAhWDNiYKHeDfA2oQ6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=the%20web%20nt%20centram%20systems%20inc%20kaypro&f=false The product is called "KayNet", a baseband twisted pair CSMA/CD local network operating at 125kbps. It uses a network called Web, designed by Centram Systems, Inc. of Camp Hill, PA. The network software , OPSnet, was written by Aquinas, INc., and is compatible with CP/M 2.2 I secured the board, but it needs to be reverse engineered and I lack the time at present. Anyone want to take on the effort? I also need to track down OPSnet OS, and I think there is a bit more to this board (the documentation I found mentions a switch and an RJ-11 connector. I see what looks like the LED wires on the PCB, and there are 3 more pins on the PCB that could be the RJ11 pins. There is a wire that is soldered to U65:pin4 on the motherboard, which I assume is the switch but maybe hooked to this gate as a way to make the switch a softswitch. Here is some documentation: https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_kayproKayn_4822341/Kaynet_Users_Guide_1983_djvu.txt Here is the KayNET documentation: https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_kayproKayn_4822341 http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/kaypro/hardware/kaypro%20kaynet%20users%20guide.pdf (Thanks Jason Scott!) Anyone interested in bringing this network back to life? I am happy to design and manufacture replacement PCBs at cost for this... More on KayNET: https://books.google.com/books?id=ui8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=kaynet+kaypro&source=bl&ots=0BU3jTdrH3&sig=LsCiZJVRumQ7QgRa1-QpuzpefQ8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOjZLr75vKAhXL8CYKHVxUAdwQ6AEIKjAC#v=onepage&q=kaynet%20kaypro&f=false http://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gopher.floodgap.com/0/archive/walnut-creek-cd-simtel/KAYPRO/KPRO-LAN.INF This looks very interesting, but I think I need help to move forward. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 20:21:03 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:21:03 -0600 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > For part 2, personally, I would take movies of the paper tape moving and > doing image analysis to recover that data; this occurs to me because I've > done a fair bit of image recognition software, so this solution may not be > feasible for all. If you sent me a sample movie, I would make a stab at > writing some data recovery software. I have heard of those approach and was thinking it may be a solution in cases where the tape is too fragile (and that's pretty likely here.) It would be well beyond my abilities but might make an interesting project for you or anyone else with the skills. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 20:46:39 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:46:39 -0800 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:21 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Charles Anthony > wrote: > > For part 2, personally, I would take movies of the paper tape moving and > > doing image analysis to recover that data; this occurs to me because I've > > done a fair bit of image recognition software, so this solution may not > be > > feasible for all. If you sent me a sample movie, I would make a stab at > > writing some data recovery software. > > I have heard of those approach and was thinking it may be a solution > in cases where the tape is too fragile (and that's pretty likely > here.) It would be well beyond my abilities but might make an > interesting project for you or anyone else with the skills. > The general approach would be to have the tape backlit (on a piece of glass, with a light source and and diffuser underneath ) and guide block that the tape slides against so the holes move left-to-right but not up and down. The camera is set up so that the tape fills the image as much as is feasible. You start the camera, and slide the tape. Constant speed is not important, but avoid backing up. Grab a frame from the movie. Figure out the approximate pixel coordinates of the data and pin feed holes in the axis moving across the tape (eg, the 1 bit is about 24 pixels from the top of the image, the 2 bit is about 47 pixels from the top, etc). Process the movie a frame at a time. Grab a column of pixels from the center of the image from top to bottom. Look at the pixels around where the pin feed is, decide if they are light or dark. If light, the a character is centered in the column. If not, move to the next frame. look at the pixels around where each data bit is, and decide if the are light (punched) or dark (unpunched). Write out that data. Skip frames until the pin feed pixels go dark, and then skip frames until it goes light again; that will be the next character. Repeat. The pin feed holes greatly simplify the process. This process is quite analogous to reading multi-track magnetic media with a timing track. Test on a known tape. Debug. Run over damaged tapes; data recovered. -- Charles From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jan 21 21:10:18 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 21:10:18 -0600 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000401d154c2$709e82c0$51db8840$@classiccmp.org> By all means, let's discuss and it will be a useful and fascinating conversation both now and in the future. But just as a thought for the more immediate issue (your tapes)... I find it somewhat unlikely that a significant number of early HP 21XX paper tapes are not already archived, or in good condition elsewhere. So at least regarding your particular stash of tapes, I'd suggest first getting a list up of what all you have. At the least, you may find machine readable images already exist, or that of all your tapes there's only 3 that should be given heroic efforts.... There's a major percentage of those tapes online, and I have a pretty huge (cases and cases) stash of early 2114/5/6 & 2100 tapes I haven't even cataloged yet. I should do the same, but at least mine are all (currently) in pristine shape :) J From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jan 21 22:32:04 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:32:04 -0800 Subject: UA11 Boards have arrived!! Message-ID: <56A1B0C4.9000707@shiresoft.com> I know some folks sent an email to me indicating their desire for a UA11 board but others may have waited until they arrived. The boards arrived this week (I'm just getting to it because I was out of town on business). They actually got here a week a head of schedule (yea!). The price will be $99/ea + shipping. To make it easy, I'll be using USPS priority with flat rate boxes, so within the USA I'll be charging $15 for packing and shipping, so the total will be $114 (for folks that want more than one board I can probably fit 2-4 boards in the flat rate box so I'll only charge shipping once). I will also be including 1 copy of printed documentation with each order (if you purchase multiple boards in a single order, you'll only get one copy). I accept paypal to ggs at shiresoft.com. If you don't want to use paypal, email me directly and we can figure something out. In any case, please email me to indicate the number of boards that you'd like and where you want them shipped. The folks who have emailed me previously will have priority. TTFN - Guy From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 00:23:35 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 00:23:35 -0600 Subject: Dec items for sale or trade (winter cleaning), HP Message-ID: 8-A boards- i found more, or most, but no FP8 Quantity of LA34, 38, 50, 100, 120 printers and parts Quantity of DECMATE, Rainbow, and PRO units and parts H7883 ps H7894-MA ps 30-43120-01 ps 30-44712-01 ps DEC PC WXE-A2 (2) DEC PC443 DXLP CELEBRIS 560 830WW VENTURIS 466 854WW (2, one is very rough) VENTURIS 575 821WW VS42S-JC VT1200 VX10A-AA HP 82901M flexible disc drive Shipping from 61853. Feel free to contact me off list with any questions and offers. Paul From jrr at flippers.com Fri Jan 22 00:48:43 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 22:48:43 -0800 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56A1D0CB.4080504@flippers.com> On 01/21/2016 6:46 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:21 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Charles Anthony >> wrote: >>> For part 2, personally, I would take movies of the paper tape moving and >>> doing image analysis to recover that data; this occurs to me because I've >>> done a fair bit of image recognition software, so this solution may not >> be >>> feasible for all. If you sent me a sample movie, I would make a stab at >>> writing some data recovery software. >> I have heard of those approach and was thinking it may be a solution >> in cases where the tape is too fragile (and that's pretty likely >> here.) It would be well beyond my abilities but might make an >> interesting project for you or anyone else with the skills. >> > > The general approach would be to have the tape backlit (on a piece of > glass, with a light source and and diffuser underneath ) and guide block > that the tape slides against so the holes move left-to-right but not up and > down. The camera is set up so that the tape fills the image as much as is > feasible. You start the camera, and slide the tape. Constant speed is not > important, but avoid backing up. > > Grab a frame from the movie. Figure out the approximate pixel coordinates > of the data and pin feed holes in the axis moving across the tape (eg, the > 1 bit is about 24 pixels from the top of the image, the 2 bit is about 47 > pixels from the top, etc). > > Process the movie a frame at a time. Grab a column of pixels from the > center of the image from top to bottom. Look at the pixels around where the > pin feed is, decide if they are light or dark. If light, the a character is > centered in the column. If not, move to the next frame. look at the pixels > around where each data bit is, and decide if the are light (punched) or > dark (unpunched). Write out that data. Skip frames until the pin feed > pixels go dark, and then skip frames until it goes light again; that will > be the next character. Repeat. > > The pin feed holes greatly simplify the process. This process is quite > analogous to reading multi-track magnetic media with a timing track. > > Test on a known tape. Debug. Run over damaged tapes; data recovered. > > -- Charles > Would it not be simpler to make an optical reader to handle this job? You need a light source and the correct number of opto transistors to read the light from each hole. There is an index built into the tape so that is easy to set. Something like this: http://hackaday.com/2014/05/02/reading-paper-tapes-from-scratch/ Of course my assumption above is based on tape that is still complete. If it has holes or can't be pulled then, yes, photographing and visually reading the dot patterns may be necessary, but that sounds rather impractical if there are more than a couple of tapes to transcribe. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From bear at typewritten.org Thu Jan 21 13:32:32 2016 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 11:32:32 -0800 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305144D5@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305144D5@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: <17AFD870-B25E-433D-8869-254ABCA167AD@typewritten.org> The 98549A board is 1024x768, 6 planes (4 color, 2 overlay, at least under HP VUE -- perhaps there's a way it can make use of all 6 planes for color, but I don't know how). Otherwise, that matches what I've observed here. ok bear. On Jan 21, 2016, at 8:51 AM, wrote: > Yesterday I checked the 9000/217 98204B combo with my oscilloscope and I can confirm the 25kHz horz. frequency (1V down to 0.3V pulses every 40 us). > I cannot measure the pixel clock as my oscilloscope was too cheap (I had to compromise) and thus cannot sample at higher MHz rates. I only see that it goes from 1V to approx. 2.2V. > Just for my understanding: if I do the math: 512 pixels x 400 rows = 204'800 pixels at 50 Hz I end up with 10.2 MHz and at 60 Hz = 12.3 MHz. > There is more "room" required for the retrace time, probably another 10% or so? > So I understand that the monitor must be capable of ~25 kHz and 10...14 MHz and that I better try before buy. > > It is difficult to find specs for these HP 9000 video boards. > In case it is useful for someone ... my list below is still missing DIO-bus type (1 or 2) and signal frequencies. > > 98204B Video Board medium resolution (512x390) monochrome for 35721 monitor, DIO-1 > 98542A Monochrome Video Board medium resolution (512x400) monochrome > 98543A Color Video Board medium resolution (512x400) 16 colors > 98544B Monochrome Video Board high resolution (1024x768) monochrome > 98545A Color Video Board high resolution (1024x768) 16 colors > 98546A/B Monochrome Video Board medium resolution (512x390) monochrome alpha/graphics, for 216/217 display compatibility > (a pair of cards, compatible with 2136 and 217 displays (512x390, 25x80)) > 98547A Color Video Board high resolution (1024x768) 64 colors > 98548A Monochrome Video Board high resolution (1280x1024) high performance > 98549A Color Video Board high resolution (1280x1024) high performance > 98550A Color Video Board high resolution (1280x1024) high performance > 98700A Graphics Display Station high resolution (1024x768) 256 colors > 98710A Graphics Accelerator optional for 98700A > 98720A High Performance Board high resolution (1280x1024) nur HP-UX, requires 98724AA interface and 98784A monitor > 98730A High Performance Board high resolution (1280x1024) nur HP-UX > 98722 memory upgrade optional for 98720A > > Martin > > -- until further notice From applecorey at optonline.net Fri Jan 22 05:25:41 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 06:25:41 -0500 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17A3FA05-4025-4720-BB73-865E7C317BD0@optonline.net> Another option is something like an op-80a where you can manually pull the tape across sensors making sure you don't damage it. Essentially a low tech version of what you guys described using a video camera. The op-80a doesn't have a physical sprocket to break the tape, it uses the sprocket holes only for timing/triggering the character. Even if you don't have access to an one, they can be built pretty easily and the schematic is readily available on line. I keep one around just for such a purpose, though I really should put a microcontroller together to bit bang the parallel to serial or a simple UART so that I can hook it up to a modern computer. It would remove the middle step of reading it into my sol-20 and then dumping it to my laptop. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Jan 21, 2016, at 9:46 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:21 PM, Jason T wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Charles Anthony >> wrote: >>> For part 2, personally, I would take movies of the paper tape moving and >>> doing image analysis to recover that data; this occurs to me because I've >>> done a fair bit of image recognition software, so this solution may not >> be >>> feasible for all. If you sent me a sample movie, I would make a stab at >>> writing some data recovery software. >> >> I have heard of those approach and was thinking it may be a solution >> in cases where the tape is too fragile (and that's pretty likely >> here.) It would be well beyond my abilities but might make an >> interesting project for you or anyone else with the skills. > > > The general approach would be to have the tape backlit (on a piece of > glass, with a light source and and diffuser underneath ) and guide block > that the tape slides against so the holes move left-to-right but not up and > down. The camera is set up so that the tape fills the image as much as is > feasible. You start the camera, and slide the tape. Constant speed is not > important, but avoid backing up. > > Grab a frame from the movie. Figure out the approximate pixel coordinates > of the data and pin feed holes in the axis moving across the tape (eg, the > 1 bit is about 24 pixels from the top of the image, the 2 bit is about 47 > pixels from the top, etc). > > Process the movie a frame at a time. Grab a column of pixels from the > center of the image from top to bottom. Look at the pixels around where the > pin feed is, decide if they are light or dark. If light, the a character is > centered in the column. If not, move to the next frame. look at the pixels > around where each data bit is, and decide if the are light (punched) or > dark (unpunched). Write out that data. Skip frames until the pin feed > pixels go dark, and then skip frames until it goes light again; that will > be the next character. Repeat. > > The pin feed holes greatly simplify the process. This process is quite > analogous to reading multi-track magnetic media with a timing track. > > Test on a known tape. Debug. Run over damaged tapes; data recovered. > > -- Charles From applecorey at optonline.net Fri Jan 22 05:25:41 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 06:25:41 -0500 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17A3FA05-4025-4720-BB73-865E7C317BD0@optonline.net> Another option is something like an op-80a where you can manually pull the tape across sensors making sure you don't damage it. Essentially a low tech version of what you guys described using a video camera. The op-80a doesn't have a physical sprocket to break the tape, it uses the sprocket holes only for timing/triggering the character. Even if you don't have access to an one, they can be built pretty easily and the schematic is readily available on line. I keep one around just for such a purpose, though I really should put a microcontroller together to bit bang the parallel to serial or a simple UART so that I can hook it up to a modern computer. It would remove the middle step of reading it into my sol-20 and then dumping it to my laptop. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Jan 21, 2016, at 9:46 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:21 PM, Jason T wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Charles Anthony >> wrote: >>> For part 2, personally, I would take movies of the paper tape moving and >>> doing image analysis to recover that data; this occurs to me because I've >>> done a fair bit of image recognition software, so this solution may not >> be >>> feasible for all. If you sent me a sample movie, I would make a stab at >>> writing some data recovery software. >> >> I have heard of those approach and was thinking it may be a solution >> in cases where the tape is too fragile (and that's pretty likely >> here.) It would be well beyond my abilities but might make an >> interesting project for you or anyone else with the skills. > > > The general approach would be to have the tape backlit (on a piece of > glass, with a light source and and diffuser underneath ) and guide block > that the tape slides against so the holes move left-to-right but not up and > down. The camera is set up so that the tape fills the image as much as is > feasible. You start the camera, and slide the tape. Constant speed is not > important, but avoid backing up. > > Grab a frame from the movie. Figure out the approximate pixel coordinates > of the data and pin feed holes in the axis moving across the tape (eg, the > 1 bit is about 24 pixels from the top of the image, the 2 bit is about 47 > pixels from the top, etc). > > Process the movie a frame at a time. Grab a column of pixels from the > center of the image from top to bottom. Look at the pixels around where the > pin feed is, decide if they are light or dark. If light, the a character is > centered in the column. If not, move to the next frame. look at the pixels > around where each data bit is, and decide if the are light (punched) or > dark (unpunched). Write out that data. Skip frames until the pin feed > pixels go dark, and then skip frames until it goes light again; that will > be the next character. Repeat. > > The pin feed holes greatly simplify the process. This process is quite > analogous to reading multi-track magnetic media with a timing track. > > Test on a known tape. Debug. Run over damaged tapes; data recovered. > > -- Charles From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 10:27:58 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 08:27:58 -0800 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape In-Reply-To: <56A1D0CB.4080504@flippers.com> References: <56A1D0CB.4080504@flippers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 10:48 PM, John Robertson wrote: > >> Would it not be simpler to make an optical reader to handle this job? > You need a light source and the correct number of opto transistors to read > the light from each hole. There is an index built into the tape so that is > easy to set. > > Something like this: > > http://hackaday.com/2014/05/02/reading-paper-tapes-from-scratch/ > > Of course my assumption above is based on tape that is still complete. If > it has holes or can't be pulled then, yes, photographing and visually > reading the dot patterns may be necessary, but that sounds rather > impractical if there are more than a couple of tapes to transcribe. This is the approach I would use, based on my skill set. I have mad s/w skillz, but building something more complicated than Legos is just beyond me. Also, given the described condition of the tapes, this is the approach least likely (it seems to me) to make things worse. YMMV. -- Charles From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 22 11:03:35 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 17:03:35 +0000 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape In-Reply-To: References: <56A1D0CB.4080504@flippers.com>, Message-ID: Did you guys forget the Oliver Engineering tape reader? Heres a construction article from Herb: http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/s_paper.html ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Charles Anthony Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 8:27 AM To: jrr at flippers.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Restoring Old Paper Tape On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 10:48 PM, John Robertson wrote: > >> Would it not be simpler to make an optical reader to handle this job? > You need a light source and the correct number of opto transistors to read > the light from each hole. There is an index built into the tape so that is > easy to set. > > Something like this: > > http://hackaday.com/2014/05/02/reading-paper-tapes-from-scratch/ > > Of course my assumption above is based on tape that is still complete. If > it has holes or can't be pulled then, yes, photographing and visually > reading the dot patterns may be necessary, but that sounds rather > impractical if there are more than a couple of tapes to transcribe. This is the approach I would use, based on my skill set. I have mad s/w skillz, but building something more complicated than Legos is just beyond me. Also, given the described condition of the tapes, this is the approach least likely (it seems to me) to make things worse. YMMV. -- Charles From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jan 22 11:06:00 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 09:06:00 -0800 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape In-Reply-To: <56A1D0CB.4080504@flippers.com> References: <56A1D0CB.4080504@flippers.com> Message-ID: <56A26178.7010504@jwsss.com> On 1/21/2016 10:48 PM, John Robertson wrote: > On 01/21/2016 6:46 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: >> >> >> -- Charles >> > Would it not be simpler to make an optical reader to handle this job? > You need a light source and the correct number of opto transistors to > read the light from each hole. There is an index built into the tape > so that is easy to set. > > Something like this: > > http://hackaday.com/2014/05/02/reading-paper-tapes-from-scratch/ > Did anyone get a schematic on the values the fellow used in the article on vintage-computer.com? I see the photos, but didn't see any schematic showing what the actual circuit he found to work was. Also didn't see any real names. Was the cited article anyone here? thanks Jim > Of course my assumption above is based on tape that is still complete. > If it has holes or can't be pulled then, yes, photographing and > visually reading the dot patterns may be necessary, but that sounds > rather impractical if there are more than a couple of tapes to > transcribe. > > John :-#)# > From bryan at bceassociates.com Fri Jan 22 07:10:10 2016 From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan C. Everly) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 08:10:10 -0500 Subject: Introducing myself and VAXstation 3100 help needed Message-ID: Hi Everyone, Jay West was kind enough to point me to this list and I just wanted to introduce myself before I start begging for help. :-) I started out life coding on a CDC Cyber-170 and from there moved up through the TRS-80 model I before finally taking the plunge and purchasing a very early Apple ][+. After that, I moved up through the Apple //e and finally landed in the 32-bit world with my Amiga 1000. I had an Amiga 2000 and then finally sold out and lived in the WinTel world until being "rescued" by a PPC32 Mac Mini. From there it's been Mac mostly but I've always loved older, less mainstream gear. When I rediscovered OpenBSD and the fact that it has some of these "distaff" architectures as full tier-1 citizens, I started playing around. At this point I have that same MacMini (macppc), a Sun Blade 100 (sparc64), an Alphastation 500/400 (alpha), an SGI O2 (mips64), an HP C3700 (hppa) and a VAXstation 3100 (VAX). Everything except the VAX is running 5.9-current on OpenBSD and doing surprisingly well. I'm trying to bring the VAXstation back to life (picked it up on eBay for less than $30 US) and I'm having a problem (here's where I start begging for help). The diagnostic LEDs on the back (thanks to http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/3100leds.html for helping me decode them) finally settle at: 1000 1010 Which I'm reading as a failed self-test in the "MM" subsystem. I'm assuming MM=Memory Management Unit. I have also noticed it never spins up the hard drive (that's a working drive I personally installed so I know it's good) or tries to access the floppy. On the advice of some of the folks on the list, I stripped the machine down to the bare board (man there was a lot of dust in there). I found (as I expected to) that the CMOS battery had leaked but there wasn't a lot of corrosion on the board near the connector and the solder pads in that area looked particularly beefy so I don't think I have any board or trace damage from that. When I powered the box up with everything removed, I got the same MM subsystem failure error so I don't think it's the memory board. I'm still waiting on my final cable to be able to get on the serial console so I can't run TEST 50 yet but I'm hoping someone on here can point me in another diagnostic direction. Or, does a failed "MM" test mean the CPU or main board are done with and I need to replace it? Many thanks in advance for any help you can give me. Thanks, Bryan From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 09:58:22 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 10:58:22 -0500 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? Message-ID: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> Have any of you bought this item here is a link to the one I bought I have a few questions on disk swapping. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beige-SD2IEC-Commodore-1541-Disk-Drive-Emulation-SD-Card-Reader-Vic20-C128-C64-/330919501256?hash=item4d0c56ddc8:g:7sUAAOxy0NtTEQKk Also having rtouble hooking up my original floppy drive as " LOAD "$" ,9,1 AKA disk drive 9" From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 11:54:04 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 12:54:04 -0500 Subject: Introducing myself and VAXstation 3100 help needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > > When I powered the box up with everything removed, I got the same MM > subsystem failure error so I don't think it's the memory board. I'm still > waiting on my final cable to be able to get on the serial console so I > can't run TEST 50 yet but I'm hoping someone on here can point me in > another diagnostic direction. > > Or, does a failed "MM" test mean the CPU or main board are done with and I > need to replace it? > > Many thanks in advance for any help you can give me. > > Thanks, > Bryan > What version MicroVAX 3100? Is it possible to remove some RAM but not all, try again? From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 11:56:57 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 11:56:57 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> Message-ID: Have you cut the appropriate jumper to designate that drive as device #9? On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote: > Have any of you bought this item here is a link to the one I bought I > have a few questions on disk swapping. > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beige-SD2IEC-Commodore-1541-Disk-Drive-Emulation-SD-Card-Reader-Vic20-C128-C64-/330919501256?hash=item4d0c56ddc8:g:7sUAAOxy0NtTEQKk > > Also having rtouble hooking up my original floppy drive as " LOAD "$" > ,9,1 AKA disk drive 9" > From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 12:18:46 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 10:18:46 -0800 Subject: Introducing myself and VAXstation 3100 help needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 9:54 AM, william degnan wrote: > > What version MicroVAX 3100? Is it possible to remove some RAM but not all, > try again? I think it was mentioned earlier that it was a KA42 version, so either a KA42-A VAXstation M30 in a BA42-A box or an M40 in a BA42-B box. Or maybe a KA42-B VAXstation M38 or M48. A VAXstation M76 should have an M76 badge on the front and would be a KA43 version. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 12:23:20 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:23:20 -0500 Subject: Introducing myself and VAXstation 3100 help needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > > > What version MicroVAX 3100? Is it possible to remove some RAM but not > all, > > try again? > > I think it was mentioned earlier that it was a KA42 version, so either > a KA42-A VAXstation M30 in a BA42-A box or an M40 in a BA42-B box. Or > maybe a KA42-B VAXstation M38 or M48. > > A VAXstation M76 should have an M76 badge on the front and would be a > KA43 version. > Not sure if I mentioned earlier, here is mine http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=604 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 22 12:40:36 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 18:40:36 -0000 Subject: Introducing myself and VAXstation 3100 help needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004a01d15544$6205a810$2610f830$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan C. > Everly > Sent: 22 January 2016 13:10 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Introducing myself and VAXstation 3100 help needed > > Hi Everyone, > > Jay West was kind enough to point me to this list and I just wanted to > introduce myself before I start begging for help. :-) > > I started out life coding on a CDC Cyber-170 and from there moved up > through the TRS-80 model I before finally taking the plunge and purchasing a > very early Apple ][+. After that, I moved up through the Apple //e and finally > landed in the 32-bit world with my Amiga 1000. I had an Amiga 2000 and then > finally sold out and lived in the WinTel world until being "rescued" by a PPC32 > Mac Mini. From there it's been Mac mostly but I've always loved older, less > mainstream gear. > > When I rediscovered OpenBSD and the fact that it has some of these > "distaff" architectures as full tier-1 citizens, I started playing around. > At this point I have that same MacMini (macppc), a Sun Blade 100 (sparc64), > an Alphastation 500/400 (alpha), an SGI O2 (mips64), an HP C3700 (hppa) and > a VAXstation 3100 (VAX). Everything except the VAX is running 5.9-current > on OpenBSD and doing surprisingly well. > > I'm trying to bring the VAXstation back to life (picked it up on eBay for less > than $30 US) and I'm having a problem (here's where I start begging for > help). > > The diagnostic LEDs on the back (thanks to > http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/3100leds.html for helping me > decode them) finally settle at: > > 1000 1010 > > Which I'm reading as a failed self-test in the "MM" subsystem. I'm assuming > MM=Memory Management Unit. I have also noticed it never spins up the > hard drive (that's a working drive I personally installed so I know it's good) or > tries to access the floppy. > > On the advice of some of the folks on the list, I stripped the machine down to > the bare board (man there was a lot of dust in there). I found (as I expected > to) that the CMOS battery had leaked but there wasn't a lot of corrosion on > the board near the connector and the solder pads in that area looked > particularly beefy so I don't think I have any board or trace damage from that. > > When I powered the box up with everything removed, I got the same MM > subsystem failure error so I don't think it's the memory board. I'm still > waiting on my final cable to be able to get on the serial console so I can't run > TEST 50 yet but I'm hoping someone on here can point me in another > diagnostic direction. > > Or, does a failed "MM" test mean the CPU or main board are done with and I > need to replace it? > > Many thanks in advance for any help you can give me. > > Thanks, > Bryan It does appear that you have a problem with the memory management unit. It doesn't sound very promising, but TEST 50 output would help. Regards Rob From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 13:54:21 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 20:54:21 +0100 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. Message-ID: Short: R27 in my VT100 PSU is hot and smelling. Why? Long: I think it has been 20 years since I powered up this VT100 so I did it carefully. Used a Variac and a bench supply. It switched just fine and delivered the steady 5V out when the input was at approx 50V (115V input). All the other voltages looked fine at full AC input. But there was this little smell from R27. Then I plugged everything in and fired it up. Now there were considerable more heat generated in R27 which is a 13W / 1kOhm power resistor. But I still had 4.99V over a random TTL gate on the logic board so the PSU seemed to operate just fine. R27 is part of the snubber network on the primary side of this forward-type SMPS PSU. But why it it getting so hot. Is it normal? I have completely forgotten how a VT100 smell when running... Anyone out there with a VT100 that can put his or her nose above R27 and tell me the temperature? One interesting thing is that DEC apparently did some kind of ECO since my resistor is 1k while the schematic tell me 500 ohm. It doesn't seems to have been replaced. I checked D27 and that one looked fine. Could there be some marginal problem in the circuit somewhere that cause excessive hearing of R27? The primary side looks fairly simple so there are not many components that could fail completely which wouldn't cause complete death of the PSU. C19 is part of the snubber network and is a 0.0033uF 1600VDC film capacitor. Can these go marginal somehow? I never heard of that but maybe? /Mattis From drb at msu.edu Fri Jan 22 14:13:48 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:13:48 -0500 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 22 Jan 2016 09:06:00 -0800.) <56A26178.7010504@jwsss.com> References: <56A26178.7010504@jwsss.com> <56A1D0CB.4080504@flippers.com> Message-ID: <20160122201348.83A96A5861C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Did anyone get a schematic on the values the fellow used in the > article on vintage-computer.com? Not necessarily to squelch discussion of building optical readers, but the original question was more about archival preservation of tapes suffering from bad storage. I'd be interested in hearing how people have approached this problem in the past. In googling about yesterday, I noticed that libraries and archives are now at least occasionally using chlorine dioxide to deal with mold infestations. Wipes are commercially available for going after surfaces. There are also humidity-activated packets which produce a safe level of ClO2 gas over a period of a month or so, and are intended to "fumigate" an area. While they packets are a bit expensive, the mold apparently returns slowly enough that continuous treatment isn't necessary. Apparently ozone isn't considered very successful, and also damages bindings, so isn't used much any more. Now, the library and archival community has legitimate concerns about the long term life of the objects they're cleaning. Many in the ccmp hobbyist community seem concerned largely with extracting the data from the object once, and then largely ignoring the physical object. I wonder if we're being a bit callous here, so maybe that's an interesting topic for discussion too. Cheers, De From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Jan 22 14:23:51 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:23:51 -0500 Subject: Restoring Old Paper Tape Message-ID: <15eba6.24fbc530.43d3e9d6@aol.com> on moldy paper and other items.... generally we will bag it and tag it to isolate it from everything else... check part # or document name ( in the case of printed material) against what already exists. if it exists then the moldy nasty stuff is scrap. If it is something that warrants preservation but not found elsewhere then we consider moving forward on preservation efforts. Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 1/21/2016 6:57:02 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, silent700 at gmail.com writes: I'm tossing this out here as a conversation-starter more than a request for help, although I may end up putting the knowledge to use. Today I received a set of original HP paper tapes for the 2115a machine. I don't know if they've been archived or not - there are dozens of HP tapes on bitsavers and I'll have to make a P/N list and compare them. The real problem is they're in horrible shape. Decades of basement moisture and likely a few critters have turned them blackened, moldy and stuck together. So, what to do? How to get to the data without a bio-hazardous payload along for the ride? My thoughts go toward sunlight and/or U/V light (like a hair salon sanitizer,) rubber gloves and a mask, isopropyl alcohol, careful picking apart of layers, etc. I'd think one thing in our favor is that holes in paper are going to be easier to read than ink on paper. So Part 1 is getting them into readable condition, with part 2 being the actual reading. Any experience out there? -j From js at cimmeri.com Fri Jan 22 14:48:22 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:48:22 -0500 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56A29596.4040509@cimmeri.com> On 1/22/2016 2:54 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Short: R27 in my VT100 PSU is hot and smelling. Why? > > Long: I think it has been 20 years since I powered up this VT100 so I did > it carefully. Used a Variac and a bench supply. It switched just fine and > delivered the steady 5V out when the input was at approx 50V (115V input). > All the other voltages looked fine at full AC input. But there was this > little smell from R27. > You don't use Variacs with switch mode power supplies... not unless you want to burn them up. I'll sometimes use one, but only to provide a very fast soft start. Even that's risky. - J. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jan 22 17:32:52 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 23:32:52 +0000 (WET) Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 22 Jan 2016 20:54:21 +0100" Message-ID: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> > > R27 is part of the snubber network on the primary side of this forward-type > SMPS PSU. But why it it getting so hot. Is it normal? I have completely > forgotten how a VT100 smell when running... > Snubber as in a resistor in series with a capacitor across the primary? If so check the capacitor for leakage (electrical, not liquid) or being shorted. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 17:56:20 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 00:56:20 +0100 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: <56A29596.4040509@cimmeri.com> References: <56A29596.4040509@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: 2016-01-22 21:48 GMT+01:00 js at cimmeri.com : > On 1/22/2016 2:54 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> Short: R27 in my VT100 PSU is hot and smelling. Why? >> >> Long: I think it has been 20 years since I powered up this VT100 so I did >> it carefully. Used a Variac and a bench supply. It switched just fine and >> delivered the steady 5V out when the input was at approx 50V (115V input). >> All the other voltages looked fine at full AC input. But there was this >> little smell from R27. >> >> > You don't use Variacs with switch mode power supplies... not unless you > want to burn them up. I'll sometimes use one, but only to provide a very > fast soft start. Even that's risky. Well. It depends if you read the schematics before you do so. In this case I powered the startup voltage from a 12 V bench supply. Normally the startup voltage comes from a small mains transformer and a 7812. Then I supplied the primary side voltage for the main switch transistor using a variac. Works perfectly well if you know what you are doing. Have done this practice with many SMPS supplies. > > - J. > > From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 18:00:13 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 01:00:13 +0100 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: 2016-01-23 0:32 GMT+01:00 Peter Coghlan : > > > > R27 is part of the snubber network on the primary side of this > forward-type > > SMPS PSU. But why it it getting so hot. Is it normal? I have completely > > forgotten how a VT100 smell when running... > > > > Snubber as in a resistor in series with a capacitor across the primary? > Yes. It is a R, C, D network. > > If so check the capacitor for leakage (electrical, not liquid) or being > shorted. > I don't have a ESR meter or similar. It is not shorted at least and the resistance is in the several mega ohm range when measuring in circuit. Are they likely to go bad in a non catastrophic way? > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > /Mattis From js at cimmeri.com Fri Jan 22 18:19:09 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 19:19:09 -0500 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: References: <56A29596.4040509@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <56A2C6FD.4000904@cimmeri.com> On 1/22/2016 6:56 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2016-01-22 21:48 GMT+01:00 js at cimmeri.com: > >> On 1/22/2016 2:54 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >>> Short: R27 in my VT100 PSU is hot and smelling. Why? >>> >>> Long: I think it has been 20 years since I powered up this VT100 so I did >>> it carefully. Used a Variac and a bench supply. It switched just fine and >>> delivered the steady 5V out when the input was at approx 50V (115V input). >>> All the other voltages looked fine at full AC input. But there was this >>> little smell from R27. >>> >>> >> You don't use Variacs with switch mode power supplies... not unless you >> want to burn them up. I'll sometimes use one, but only to provide a very >> fast soft start. Even that's risky. > > Well. It depends if you read the schematics before you do so. Assuming they're available for the particular PSU one is attempting to test. > I powered the startup voltage from a 12 V bench supply. Normally the > startup voltage comes from a small mains transformer and a 7812. Then I > supplied the primary side voltage for the main switch transistor using a > variac. I wasn't aware of this interesting method; I'd also misread your original sentence and thought you were just using a variac alone to bring up the entire SMPS. > Works perfectly well if you know what you are doing. Have done this > practice with many SMPS supplies. Just curious -- what is *your* reason for bringing up an SMPS with the help of a variac? Thank you- -J. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Jan 22 18:26:54 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 18:26:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: References: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 2016, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2016-01-23 0:32 GMT+01:00 Peter Coghlan : > >>> R27 is part of the snubber network on the primary side of this >>> forward-type SMPS PSU. But why it it getting so hot. Is it normal? I >>> have completely forgotten how a VT100 smell when running... >> >> Snubber as in a resistor in series with a capacitor across the primary? > > Yes. It is a R, C, D network. > >> If so check the capacitor for leakage (electrical, not liquid) or being >> shorted. > > I don't have a ESR meter or similar. It is not shorted at least and the > resistance is in the several mega ohm range when measuring in circuit. > Are they likely to go bad in a non catastrophic way? They can. The translucent yellow Rifa (now owned by Kemet) class X/Y safety capacitors in particular have a 100% failure rate and are on my replace-on-sight list. They usually begin to show visible signs of cracking in their outer casing before they finally go out with a bang. It seems to be due to chemical decomposition of the paper insulator which swells over time and causes the case to crack. I usually replace them with a film capacitor from Epcos of the same value and safety class. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jan 22 21:44:32 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 19:44:32 -0800 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: References: <56A29596.4040509@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <9F38EB23-6B37-497D-82AB-BBC7E56CF662@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Jan-22, at 3:56 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2016-01-22 21:48 GMT+01:00 js at cimmeri.com : >> On 1/22/2016 2:54 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >>> Short: R27 in my VT100 PSU is hot and smelling. Why? >>> >>> Long: I think it has been 20 years since I powered up this VT100 so I did >>> it carefully. Used a Variac and a bench supply. It switched just fine and >>> delivered the steady 5V out when the input was at approx 50V (115V input). >>> All the other voltages looked fine at full AC input. But there was this >>> little smell from R27. >>> >>> >> You don't use Variacs with switch mode power supplies... not unless you >> want to burn them up. I'll sometimes use one, but only to provide a very >> fast soft start. Even that's risky. > > Well. It depends if you read the schematics before you do so. In this case > I powered the startup voltage from a 12 V bench supply. Normally the > startup voltage comes from a small mains transformer and a 7812. Then I > supplied the primary side voltage for the main switch transistor using a > variac. Works perfectly well if you know what you are doing. Have done this > practice with many SMPS supplies. Speaking generally, I don't know that that will necessarily save one (in using a variac on a SMPS). A SMPS functions as a constant-power converter in response to varying supply voltage. For a given load, as the supply V goes down the supply current goes up, to keep the load delivery constant. (This is in contrast to linear-regulator supplies which maintain headroom V into the regulator and simply limit the output V - the only thing that changes as the supply V varies is the headroom V and how much energy is wasted as heat in the difference.) AIUI, the concern for SMPSs is that if the supply V is too low, the supply current and consequent factors may go too high for parts such as the driver transistors, etc. Whether it's a catastrophe depends on a variety of factors: whether the design detects & incorporates shut-down under these conditions, how large the load is (how much power the PS is trying to convert) (if the PS is lightly loaded relative to it's max capability there may be no problem), whether the pulse-width/switching characteristics are wide enough to become a problem under low supply V, and so on. Supplying an external start-up V would strike me as a crap-shoot, dependent on the design of the supply: - On the one hand, if the PS was designed so that an early-energised control circuit would shut-down or limit the main switching under low supply V, then good. - On the other hand, if the PS was designed such that the control circuit wouldn't be energised by the startup supply until the supply V was in the safe region for the main switching, then bad - the external startup supply may fool the control into thinking the supply V is in the safe region. From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 00:35:32 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 22:35:32 -0800 Subject: Free to a good home: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 workstation / server (Seattle, WA) Message-ID: <56A31F34.8050901@gmail.com> Hi all -- I picked this DPS-6 up over the summer and it's just taking up space (quite a bit of space) in the corner of my basement. This is a custom 16-bit, bitsliced, microcoded CPU from the early 80s with (I believe) 8mb of memory, and ethernet. It would originally have run a version of GCOS. It's about the size of a large-ish minifridge, but a bit deeper. It's also quite heavy! It's a neat machine, but it's very obscure and unfortunately incomplete (it is missing both mass storage and storage controllers). Otherwise, it is complete and in good condition (albeit a bit dirty). So you can see why you'd really want to have it in your collection . If anyone's up for a project, drop me a line. Local pick up in Seattle, WA. Thanks, Josh From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Jan 22 14:52:55 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 12:52:55 -0800 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions Message-ID: Hello from a newbie to the list I've just acquired 2 HP 382's with expanders. Have not had the time to look inside them yet. End goal is to set one up as an instrument controller i.e. using the built in GPIB and potentially a 2nd GPIB card. One thing I do not have is a display, keyboard and mouse. A few question Is there a PS/2 or USB (yea long shot) adapter for the HPIL interface ? Does someone have a keyboard/mouse they a not beholding to, or know where there maybe one ? Once I get the opened up and take an inventory, anything I should look out for be trying to power one of them up ? Can one boot to a terminal on the RS-232 port. Until I find a kbd/mouse ? What would be optimum version of HP-UX to run on them ? -pete From saburwulf at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 16:00:54 2016 From: saburwulf at gmail.com (Joshua Stetson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 14:00:54 -0800 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling Message-ID: Hi there, long time viewer, first time poster. First an introduction: My name is Joshua Stetson and I'm a software engineer by trade. My earliest memories have always involved computers starting with a DOS based Zenith 8088 where I played some of my first games. My first foray into "classic" computing was on a Commodore 64 which my Uncle gave me while I was still in Jr. High. I'd already been introduced to programming at an early age, so this machine was an absolute treat to me at the time as it was my first step into assembly language. As time progressed, my interests turned older and I began a collection of S-100 gear including an IMSAI 8080 and a SOL-20. Over the past couple of years, I've managed to work back even further, piecing together a PDP-8/e system from various parts collected over the past 4 years and now I have a fully working 8/e including 32kw of core and an RK05E card set. I've been running the system using Kyle Owen's os8diskserver and David Gesswein's sendtape utilities which both work absolutely wonderfully. It was amazing to be able to run Adventure on a native system! I'd like to send a shout out to Kyle for the os8diskserver, that is some pretty awesome work there. David for his software and archive of DEC documentation which was indispensable for helping me debug a few boards and get everything running and tested. I also want to thank Vincent Slyngstad for his help and support on some questions. Now to my ask: Recently I've found a pair of RK05J drives and a few disk packs. One of my drives seems to be in fully working order, the other the blower is not working, so I'm working on fixing that right now. I'm currently missing cabling for connect these drives to the RK05E board set. If anyone happens to have an extra cable set they'd be willing to part with so I can bring these beasts back to life, I'd appreciate it! Ideally I would like to find the following: 7009026 Cable which is two ribbon cables with a M933B or C flip chip on the other end The interface cable between the two drives: BC11A The terminator card M930 At minimum, I'm pretty sure I'd only need the first cable to run one of the drives, but I'd appreciate any help from those who have more experience. Also, I don't have a rack for this equipment yet, so I'm running it all tabletop, but I'm in the market for a rack + rails (I only have the rails for the equipment, but not the ones that mount to the rack itself. Any leads on more 16-sector packs would also be appreciated! Also, still hoping to get the extended arithmetic boards, RTC, and possibly a TSC8 Timesharing option as I have 4 SLUs and would love to try out some timesharing. On a side note, I'm looking to perhaps sell or trade my SOL-20 sometime soon. It's 100% working as I restored it about 3 years ago. It works great, but I'm looking to part with all of my S-100 equipment to focus more on DEC. Thanks! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 16:29:05 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 22:29:05 +0000 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Ideally I would like to find the following: > 7009026 Cable which is two ribbon cables with a M933B or C flip chip on the > other end > The interface cable between the two drives: BC11A > The terminator card M930 > > At minimum, I'm pretty sure I'd only need the first cable to run one of the > drives, but I'd appreciate any help from those who have more experience. You must put the terminator in, even on a single drive system. I've had problems where you get glitches on unterminated lines and the drive can end up writing when it shouldn't. Don't ask... The M930 and BC11 should be easy to find, they are actually the same as the bits used on PDP11 Unibus connections. -tony From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Jan 22 17:09:11 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:09:11 -0800 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Be very careful of the filter assembly, make sure the foam seals are not deteriorated to where they can add to what ends up on the platter. On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Joshua Stetson wrote: > Hi there, long time viewer, first time poster. First an introduction: > > My name is Joshua Stetson and I'm a software engineer by trade. My earliest > memories have always involved computers starting with a DOS based Zenith > 8088 where I played some of my first games. > > My first foray into "classic" computing was on a Commodore 64 which my > Uncle gave me while I was still in Jr. High. I'd already been introduced to > programming at an early age, so this machine was an absolute treat to me at > the time as it was my first step into assembly language. As time > progressed, my interests turned older and I began a collection of S-100 > gear including an IMSAI 8080 and a SOL-20. > > Over the past couple of years, I've managed to work back even further, > piecing together a PDP-8/e system from various parts collected over the > past 4 years and now I have a fully working 8/e including 32kw of core and > an RK05E card set. I've been running the system using Kyle Owen's > os8diskserver and David Gesswein's sendtape utilities which both work > absolutely wonderfully. It was amazing to be able to run Adventure on a > native system! > > I'd like to send a shout out to Kyle for the os8diskserver, that is some > pretty awesome work there. David for his software and archive of DEC > documentation which was indispensable for helping me debug a few boards and > get everything running and tested. I also want to thank Vincent Slyngstad > for his help and support on some questions. > > Now to my ask: > > Recently I've found a pair of RK05J drives and a few disk packs. One of my > drives seems to be in fully working order, the other the blower is not > working, so I'm working on fixing that right now. > > I'm currently missing cabling for connect these drives to the RK05E board > set. If anyone happens to have an extra cable set they'd be willing to part > with so I can bring these beasts back to life, I'd appreciate it! > > Ideally I would like to find the following: > 7009026 Cable which is two ribbon cables with a M933B or C flip chip on the > other end > The interface cable between the two drives: BC11A > The terminator card M930 > > At minimum, I'm pretty sure I'd only need the first cable to run one of the > drives, but I'd appreciate any help from those who have more experience. > > Also, I don't have a rack for this equipment yet, so I'm running it all > tabletop, but I'm in the market for a rack + rails (I only have the rails > for the equipment, but not the ones that mount to the rack itself. Any > leads on more 16-sector packs would also be appreciated! Also, still hoping > to get the extended arithmetic boards, RTC, and possibly a TSC8 Timesharing > option as I have 4 SLUs and would love to try out some timesharing. > > On a side note, I'm looking to perhaps sell or trade my SOL-20 sometime > soon. It's 100% working as I restored it about 3 years ago. It works great, > but I'm looking to part with all of my S-100 equipment to focus more on > DEC. > > Thanks! > > From saburwulf at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 17:25:52 2016 From: saburwulf at gmail.com (Joshua Stetson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:25:52 -0800 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think I lucked out on the foam, as that was one of the first things I checked. I had to go through and replace all the form in my 8/e chassis and that was a pretty disgusting process. These drives were used in a production environment up until a recently and seem really well maintained, and from the looks of it, a very clean environment. They were even shipped to me with the heads locked properly. I'm still going to be super cognizant of the foam when I pull the filters to check them though. Thanks! On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Be very careful of the filter assembly, make sure the foam seals are not > deteriorated to where they can add to what ends up on the platter. > > > > On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Joshua Stetson > wrote: > > > Hi there, long time viewer, first time poster. First an introduction: > > > > My name is Joshua Stetson and I'm a software engineer by trade. My > earliest > > memories have always involved computers starting with a DOS based Zenith > > 8088 where I played some of my first games. > > > > My first foray into "classic" computing was on a Commodore 64 which my > > Uncle gave me while I was still in Jr. High. I'd already been introduced > to > > programming at an early age, so this machine was an absolute treat to me > at > > the time as it was my first step into assembly language. As time > > progressed, my interests turned older and I began a collection of S-100 > > gear including an IMSAI 8080 and a SOL-20. > > > > Over the past couple of years, I've managed to work back even further, > > piecing together a PDP-8/e system from various parts collected over the > > past 4 years and now I have a fully working 8/e including 32kw of core > and > > an RK05E card set. I've been running the system using Kyle Owen's > > os8diskserver and David Gesswein's sendtape utilities which both work > > absolutely wonderfully. It was amazing to be able to run Adventure on a > > native system! > > > > I'd like to send a shout out to Kyle for the os8diskserver, that is some > > pretty awesome work there. David for his software and archive of DEC > > documentation which was indispensable for helping me debug a few boards > and > > get everything running and tested. I also want to thank Vincent Slyngstad > > for his help and support on some questions. > > > > Now to my ask: > > > > Recently I've found a pair of RK05J drives and a few disk packs. One of > my > > drives seems to be in fully working order, the other the blower is not > > working, so I'm working on fixing that right now. > > > > I'm currently missing cabling for connect these drives to the RK05E board > > set. If anyone happens to have an extra cable set they'd be willing to > part > > with so I can bring these beasts back to life, I'd appreciate it! > > > > Ideally I would like to find the following: > > 7009026 Cable which is two ribbon cables with a M933B or C flip chip on > the > > other end > > The interface cable between the two drives: BC11A > > The terminator card M930 > > > > At minimum, I'm pretty sure I'd only need the first cable to run one of > the > > drives, but I'd appreciate any help from those who have more experience. > > > > Also, I don't have a rack for this equipment yet, so I'm running it all > > tabletop, but I'm in the market for a rack + rails (I only have the rails > > for the equipment, but not the ones that mount to the rack itself. Any > > leads on more 16-sector packs would also be appreciated! Also, still > hoping > > to get the extended arithmetic boards, RTC, and possibly a TSC8 > Timesharing > > option as I have 4 SLUs and would love to try out some timesharing. > > > > On a side note, I'm looking to perhaps sell or trade my SOL-20 sometime > > soon. It's 100% working as I restored it about 3 years ago. It works > great, > > but I'm looking to part with all of my S-100 equipment to focus more on > > DEC. > > > > Thanks! > > > > > From saburwulf at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 17:27:02 2016 From: saburwulf at gmail.com (Joshua Stetson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:27:02 -0800 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, I won't ask on how you found this out, but I'll make sure to have the terminator before running even a single drive! :) On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 2:29 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > Ideally I would like to find the following: > > 7009026 Cable which is two ribbon cables with a M933B or C flip chip on > the > > other end > > The interface cable between the two drives: BC11A > > The terminator card M930 > > > > At minimum, I'm pretty sure I'd only need the first cable to run one of > the > > drives, but I'd appreciate any help from those who have more experience. > > You must put the terminator in, even on a single drive system. I've had > problems > where you get glitches on unterminated lines and the drive can end up > writing > when it shouldn't. Don't ask... > > The M930 and BC11 should be easy to find, they are actually the same as > the bits > used on PDP11 Unibus connections. > > -tony > From mspproductions at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 17:55:57 2016 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 18:55:57 -0500 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also be careful of the air plenum, may of them are very fragile now and if it gets cracked you are in a hard spot. And also if the foam is compressing too much it will not make a good deal with the bottom of the pack. The other thing to be aware of is the emergency head retract batteries are toast and should be replaced with a 3.6v NiCd pack, that way if the power fails you don't trash a pack. They are really nice drives for saying they where DEC's first removable media hard drive, a bit heavy to move but not that bad. Matt Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 22, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Joshua Stetson wrote: > > I think I lucked out on the foam, as that was one of the first things I > checked. I had to go through and replace all the form in my 8/e chassis and > that was a pretty disgusting process. These drives were used in a > production environment up until a recently and seem really well maintained, > and from the looks of it, a very clean environment. They were even shipped > to me with the heads locked properly. I'm still going to be super cognizant > of the foam when I pull the filters to check them though. Thanks! > > On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > >> Be very careful of the filter assembly, make sure the foam seals are not >> deteriorated to where they can add to what ends up on the platter. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Joshua Stetson >> wrote: >> >>> Hi there, long time viewer, first time poster. First an introduction: >>> >>> My name is Joshua Stetson and I'm a software engineer by trade. My >> earliest >>> memories have always involved computers starting with a DOS based Zenith >>> 8088 where I played some of my first games. >>> >>> My first foray into "classic" computing was on a Commodore 64 which my >>> Uncle gave me while I was still in Jr. High. I'd already been introduced >> to >>> programming at an early age, so this machine was an absolute treat to me >> at >>> the time as it was my first step into assembly language. As time >>> progressed, my interests turned older and I began a collection of S-100 >>> gear including an IMSAI 8080 and a SOL-20. >>> >>> Over the past couple of years, I've managed to work back even further, >>> piecing together a PDP-8/e system from various parts collected over the >>> past 4 years and now I have a fully working 8/e including 32kw of core >> and >>> an RK05E card set. I've been running the system using Kyle Owen's >>> os8diskserver and David Gesswein's sendtape utilities which both work >>> absolutely wonderfully. It was amazing to be able to run Adventure on a >>> native system! >>> >>> I'd like to send a shout out to Kyle for the os8diskserver, that is some >>> pretty awesome work there. David for his software and archive of DEC >>> documentation which was indispensable for helping me debug a few boards >> and >>> get everything running and tested. I also want to thank Vincent Slyngstad >>> for his help and support on some questions. >>> >>> Now to my ask: >>> >>> Recently I've found a pair of RK05J drives and a few disk packs. One of >> my >>> drives seems to be in fully working order, the other the blower is not >>> working, so I'm working on fixing that right now. >>> >>> I'm currently missing cabling for connect these drives to the RK05E board >>> set. If anyone happens to have an extra cable set they'd be willing to >> part >>> with so I can bring these beasts back to life, I'd appreciate it! >>> >>> Ideally I would like to find the following: >>> 7009026 Cable which is two ribbon cables with a M933B or C flip chip on >> the >>> other end >>> The interface cable between the two drives: BC11A >>> The terminator card M930 >>> >>> At minimum, I'm pretty sure I'd only need the first cable to run one of >> the >>> drives, but I'd appreciate any help from those who have more experience. >>> >>> Also, I don't have a rack for this equipment yet, so I'm running it all >>> tabletop, but I'm in the market for a rack + rails (I only have the rails >>> for the equipment, but not the ones that mount to the rack itself. Any >>> leads on more 16-sector packs would also be appreciated! Also, still >> hoping >>> to get the extended arithmetic boards, RTC, and possibly a TSC8 >> Timesharing >>> option as I have 4 SLUs and would love to try out some timesharing. >>> >>> On a side note, I'm looking to perhaps sell or trade my SOL-20 sometime >>> soon. It's 100% working as I restored it about 3 years ago. It works >> great, >>> but I'm looking to part with all of my S-100 equipment to focus more on >>> DEC. >>> >>> Thanks! >> From saburwulf at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 18:23:18 2016 From: saburwulf at gmail.com (Joshua Stetson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 16:23:18 -0800 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Also be careful of the air plenum, may of them are very fragile now and if > it gets cracked you are in a hard spot. And also if the foam is compressing > too much it will not make a good deal with the bottom of the pack. > This one looks like it's in really good condition, but I have read about those issues. I'm just going to monitor it closely when initially mounting packs to verify the seals and integrity. As much as I hate to do so, I know it's common to run these without the top cover on for calibration purposes. Any tips for that? Maybe a piece of plexiglas over the heads to avoid any potential dust or should I not worry too much? > The other thing to be aware of is the emergency head retract batteries are > toast and should be replaced with a 3.6v NiCd pack, that way if the power > fails you don't trash a pack. > This is also on my list of things to do. Is there anyway to test this function without using a pack to verify it after replaced? From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 18:37:50 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 00:37:50 +0000 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 5:56 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Have you cut the appropriate jumper to designate that drive as device #9? > > On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote: > > > Have any of you bought this item here is a link to the one I bought I > > have a few questions on disk swapping. > > > > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beige-SD2IEC-Commodore-1541-Disk-Drive-Emulation-SD-Card-Reader-Vic20-C128-C64-/330919501256?hash=item4d0c56ddc8:g:7sUAAOxy0NtTEQKk > > > > Also having rtouble hooking up my original floppy drive as " LOAD "$" > > ,9,1 > ?How are the jumper on the reak floppy to be set?? *Mike's ?* From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 22 16:49:43 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 14:49:43 -0800 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <682B6EAD-3939-440E-9EBD-E40EE60877C0@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 22, 2016, at 2:29 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> > > The M930 and BC11 should be easy to find, they are actually the same as the bits > used on PDP11 Unibus connections. > I have had no end of problems with the *many* BC11A cables that I have (ie they?re bad cables). It?s the flex ribbon cable itself that?s been the issue. To that end, I?ve made new ?paddle? board that take 2 60pin ribbon cables. I expect to have the first round of boards back from the fab house in a couple of weeks. I?ll let folks know how they turn out (ie do they actually work!). They differ from the DEC ones in a few of ways: They?re full hight. No more ?knuckle? busters. The cables are ?standard? 60-pin ribbon (you need 2 ribbon cables) The cables are not ?fixed? to the paddle board but use 3M connectors for attachment There are two versions of the paddle boards normal ?out the top? 90-degree right angle so you don?t have to ?fold? the cables for certain uses (like RK05 drives) I did these primarily because I need more cables and my BC11A?s are very flakey. Also I have uses where I need the cable to terminate to something that is agreeable to attach to other than another Unibus backplane. The downside is that they were somewhat expensive (I ordered 10 of each just because that made sense price wise for a prototype run). TTFN - Guy From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sat Jan 23 03:13:40 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 20:13:40 +1100 Subject: Software Products International LogiQuest III manual? Message-ID: The LogiCalc manual is here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareProductsInternational/ anyone have the LogiQuest III manual to go with it? Here is an advertisement for the SPI application suite that includes Logiquest III: http://i.imgur.com/k0D3wRX.png LogiQuest III was a relational database from circa 1982 and appears to have been written in UCSD Pascal although it was later ported to the CP/M. thanks. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 23 03:38:21 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 09:38:21 +0000 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56A34A0D.60104@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/01/2016 00:23, Joshua Stetson wrote: >> The other thing to be aware of is the emergency head retract batteries are >> toast and should be replaced with a 3.6v NiCd pack, that way if the power >> fails you don't trash a pack. > This is also on my list of things to do. Is there anyway to test this > function without using a pack to verify it after replaced? With the power off and the drive opened up, try to pull the heads (gently) out from the retracted position. If the battery is good, you'll only be able to pull them out a few millimetres before they pull back in (with some force). I've found a common inexpensive 3-cell battery pack for a DECT phone is an exact match. If you replace the battery, be aware that the polarity suggested by the black/red wires on the RK05 - at least on the RK05s I've seen - is the opposite to what you'd expect, so check it. If you get the battery the wrong way round it will make the heads, on their thin stainless steel arms, shoot OUT instead of in, and your hand will most likely be in the way. You can imagine how I found this out, but the blood cleaned off the stainless steel without any problem. -- Pete From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 04:13:12 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 02:13:12 -0800 Subject: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals In-Reply-To: References: <000301d14dc5$bcab1600$36014200$@gmail.com> <001501d14e0e$5bc79450$1356bcf0$@classiccmp.org> <664CD9D7-04F8-4CF4-AEB6-AC41827499D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5D990CE1-E80F-4D9D-A5B1-686ECFC772C9@gmail.com> No, but I have an HP 1670G, does the same trick. I also managed to install it as a printer on Windows 98 using a GPIB ISA card and National Instruments DOS drivers. Even had the choice of 14 7/8 inch fan fold paper in the printer dialog! I'm working on a nicer HP only demo. Marc > On Jan 19, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Curious Marc wrote: >> Here is the restoration video. Works beautifully now: >> https://youtu.be/54bu0bM0Qjo >> Marc > > Do you have an HP 16500 series logic analyzer? They are supposed to be > able to print to an HP 2631G if you select the printer type as > QuietJet. Might make for an interesting quick demo. From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 04:24:01 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 11:24:01 +0100 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: <9F38EB23-6B37-497D-82AB-BBC7E56CF662@cs.ubc.ca> References: <56A29596.4040509@cimmeri.com> <9F38EB23-6B37-497D-82AB-BBC7E56CF662@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > > Speaking generally, I don't know that that will necessarily save one (in > using a variac on a SMPS). > I for one think it is a good practice to start carefully. I like the idea of bringing up the voltage over capacitors and other electronics in a controlled manner. Electronics that had been sleeping for decades. I use a protection transformer, variac and also often means to limit the current. Then I could easily measure how the switching transistor behaves. The base/gate drive etc. > A SMPS functions as a constant-power converter in response to varying > supply voltage. For a given load, as the supply V goes down the supply > current goes up, to keep the load delivery constant. (This is in contrast > to linear-regulator supplies which maintain headroom V into the regulator > and simply limit the output V - the only thing that changes as the supply V > varies is the headroom V and how much energy is wasted as heat in the > difference.) > > AIUI, the concern for SMPSs is that if the supply V is too low, the supply > current and consequent factors may go too high for parts such as the driver > transistors, etc. > Whether it's a catastrophe depends on a variety of factors: whether the > design detects & incorporates shut-down under these conditions, how large > the load is (how much power the PS is trying to convert) (if the PS is > lightly loaded relative to it's max capability there may be no problem), > whether the pulse-width/switching characteristics are wide enough to become > a problem under low supply V, and so on. > All this depend on what load your are using. When running on the bench with variac I have a very modest load. In this case 100 mA at full 5V. Just 1 % of rated output. In that case there is very unlikely to overload the switch transistor. > > Supplying an external start-up V would strike me as a crap-shoot, > dependent on the design of the supply: > - On the one hand, if the PS was designed so that an > early-energised control circuit would shut-down > or limit the main switching under low supply V, then good. > That was the case for the VAX-11/750 supply which didn't enable switching under low main input conditions. Something I deliberately disabled to be able to test. In the case of the VAX-11/750 PSU I was able observe and detect a number of failures in the supply at low and non-harmful voltages. Regardless of protection transformer or not I don't like the idea of working with a PSU with 300VDC everywhere when probing with the scope probe. > - On the other hand, if the PS was designed such that the control > circuit wouldn't be energised > by the startup supply until the supply V was in the safe region > for the main switching, then bad - > the external startup supply may fool the control into thinking > the supply V is in the safe region. But "safe" depend on the load applied to the supply. On the other hand my question to the list was not if the use of variac is a good practice or not. I will continue to use this method since it has served me well and I am not forcing any one else to use it if they feel it is wrong. The question I have is why R27 in the snubber network is getting what I think excessively hot. The schematic for the primary side can be found here: http://i.imgur.com/VlInF90l.png One input that I had that if C19 is marginally bad then that might happen. Like if the dielectric as deteriorated over time and cannot whit-stand the voltage in the circuit. The capacitor is not cracked like the RIFA ones. It looks perfectly fine. It is a SPRAGUE 0.033uF 1600VDC. I don't have an capacitance / ESR meter so I cannot check it. Maybe I should just go ahead replacing it. But I don't like idea of replacing things without really knowing they are bad. Another question is whether the R27 is normally getting hot or not. What is VT100 owners experience here? /Mattis From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 04:38:14 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 11:38:14 +0100 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: <56A2C6FD.4000904@cimmeri.com> References: <56A29596.4040509@cimmeri.com> <56A2C6FD.4000904@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > > >> Well. It depends if you read the schematics before you do so. >> > > Assuming they're available for the particular PSU one is attempting to > test. > > Yes of course. If I have a PSU where I have doubts about the function and there is no schematic I spend a few hours trace out the relevant portions. Normally this is not a big chore. Then there are of course complex PSU and simple ones. I would not like the idea of tracing out the VAX-11/750 PSU, but a VT100 PSU is very small circuit on the primary side. > > I powered the startup voltage from a 12 V bench supply. Normally the >> startup voltage comes from a small mains transformer and a 7812. Then I >> supplied the primary side voltage for the main switch transistor using a >> variac. >> > > I wasn't aware of this interesting method; I'd also misread your original > sentence and thought you were just using a variac alone to bring up the > entire SMPS. OK. No I am not using onIy a variac. That wouldn't work very well. I usually try to identify the control circuit and power it independently of the switch circuit. That is usually no problem. Some PSU has a simple voltage divider from mains input other like the VT100 has a normal small iron core transformer to supply the control circuit supply. > > > > Works perfectly well if you know what you are doing. Have done this >> practice with many SMPS supplies. >> > Just curious -- what is *your* reason for bringing up an SMPS with the > help of a variac? > Many of the PSUs I work with have been not been powered up for decades. I think it is a good practice to take it slowly in the beginning. Observing it so that everything behaves well in the circuit using a very light load. Verify that the switch control circuit and regulation circuit behaves well and that the switching transistor waveforms looks good. Nothing is getting abnormally hot or so. Also be a little bit kind to all the electrolytics in the circuit etc. That is why I do this and I think that this method have served me well. Then of course I also use a protection transformer and very often some kind of input current limitation, not just a variac and a bench supply. > > Thank you- > -J. > > /Mattis From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 04:40:46 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 11:40:46 +0100 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: References: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: >>> >> I don't have a ESR meter or similar. It is not shorted at least and the >> resistance is in the several mega ohm range when measuring in circuit. Are >> they likely to go bad in a non catastrophic way? >> > > They can. The translucent yellow Rifa (now owned by Kemet) class X/Y > safety capacitors in particular have a 100% failure rate and are on my > replace-on-sight list. They usually begin to show visible signs of cracking > in their outer casing before they finally go out with a bang. It seems to > be due to chemical decomposition of the paper insulator which swells over > time and causes the case to crack. I usually replace them with a film > capacitor from Epcos of the same value and safety class. > This is a 0.0033 uF 1600VDC SPARAGUE capacitor. It looks nice and orange and there are no signs of cracks whatsoever. What is the likelihood of this being bad? /Mattis From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 23 06:54:22 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 07:54:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. Message-ID: <20160123125422.0FADC18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > I don't have an capacitance / ESR meter so I cannot check it. If you do a lot of work with analog components (and it sounds like you do), it's probably worth getting capacitance and ESR meters, they can be obtained (new) on eBay for not that much. I have one of each that I got that way; their quality is pretty good, considering how little I paid for them (I didn't think I'd be using them enough to make it worth paying out a lot for really good ones). I haven't used the ESR meter much, but the capacitance meter works quite well, and has been very helpful. Of course, it can't be used in-circuit, but... Alas, I can't (easily) help with the VT100 question! :-) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 23 07:14:55 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 08:14:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling Message-ID: <20160123131455.E4B7718C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Joshua Stetson > Ideally I would like to find the following: > ... > The interface cable between the two drives: BC11A > The terminator card M930 The former is going to be a pain. The latter are findable on eBay. If you can't find one, drop me a line - I may have one I can spare. > I know it's common to run these without the top cover on for > calibration purposes. Any tips for that? Maybe a piece of plexiglas > over the heads to avoid any potential dust or should I not worry too much? Don't worry about it; BITD we used to run for short periods with the cover off, to calibrate heads, etc. The air-flow through the pack and out the head entrance hole will keep the heads clear. I wouldn't run them without the cover all the time, but for short periods, it will be fine. > From: Tony Duell > The M930 and BC11 should be easy to find, they are actually the same as > the bits used on PDP11 Unibus connections. The second part is correct, but not the first: BC11 cables are now pretty much unobtainium. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 23 07:22:59 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 08:22:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling Message-ID: <20160123132259.AB49918C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor > To that end, I've made new "paddle" board that take 2 60pin ribbon > cables. Guy, this is fantastic news! I have previously speculated about doing this, but it's still on the 'someday' list. > I'll let folks know how they turn out (ie do they actually work!). They should. DEC made the same basic part, but using 3x40-pin cables: M9042 (half-length, knuckle-buster) and M9014 (full-length). Apparently the characteristic impedance of N-pin flat cable is close enough to the BC11 cable that it works. Speaking of M9014's, though, the board list describes them as "UNIBUS to 3 H854s", and also lists an M9015, described as "3 H854s to UNIBUS". Does anyone know what the difference is between the two? Unlike the QBUS, the UNIBUS shouldn't need two different kinds of board, since the 'grant in' pin on one end of a UNIBUS cable is the same as the 'grant out' pin on the other end (unlike the QBUS, where the pinout is designed to support plugging in boards, so there are separate 'grant in' and 'grant out' pins). I can't for the life of me think of anything about the UNIBUS that a straight through-connect wouldn't handle - i.e. a pair of M9014's, on each end of the cable set. Certainly, BC11 cables ends aren't marked 'in' and 'out'! ;-) So does anyone know why the M9015 exists - what it different about it, etc, etc? Or was someone at DEC just not thinking hard enough when they spec'd it? > The downside is that they were somewhat expensive Heh, they'll still be cheaper than actual BC11's! :-) Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 08:00:15 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 09:00:15 -0500 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beige-SD2IEC-Commodore-1541-Disk-Drive-Emulation-SD-Card-Reader-Vic20-C128-C64-/330919501256?hash=item4d0c56ddc8:g:7sUAAOxy0NtTEQKk > > > > > > Also having rtouble hooking up my original floppy drive as " LOAD "$" > > > ,9,1 > > > > ?How are the jumper on the reak floppy to be set?? > Have you tried to simply run a basic program to temporarily reassign the drive number? This is documented on the web. For example see page 39 here (ignore the fact that this is for a VIC 1541, the method is universal): http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/pdfs/commodore_vic_1541_floppy_drive_users_manual.pdf Given the potential flakiness of 1541 drives, why make permanent hardware changes when a basic program allows you to assign the drive to whatever you want for the temporary need of the day? Try the following for your SD card drive, My case is different but the insides are the same http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=490 At the bottom the thread there is a link to more info. Google is your friend, he misses you. b From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 08:22:04 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 15:22:04 +0100 Subject: ESR meter recommendations. Message-ID: 2016-01-23 13:54 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa : > > From: Mattis Lind > > > I don't have an capacitance / ESR meter so I cannot check it. > > If you do a lot of work with analog components (and it sounds like you do), > it's probably worth getting capacitance and ESR meters, they can be > obtained > (new) on eBay for not that much. I have one of each that I got that way; > their quality is pretty good, considering how little I paid for them (I > didn't think I'd be using them enough to make it worth paying out a lot for > really good ones). I haven't used the ESR meter much, but the capacitance > meter works quite well, and has been very helpful. Of course, it can't be > used in-circuit, but... > > Yes. agree with you.I really should get one. I have been thinking I need to get one every time I get my head into anther PSU and then everything is sorted out and the PSU seems to work fine and I forget about it. I have been looking at the DerEE DE-5000 which looks nice and has got good reviews as far as I can tell. What meter do you have and recommend? > Alas, I can't (easily) help with the VT100 question! :-) > That's a pity! > > Noel > /Mattis From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 08:43:26 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 10:43:26 -0400 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> On 2016-01-22 4:52 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Hello from a newbie to the list > > I've just acquired 2 HP 382's with expanders. Have not had the time to look > inside them yet. > > End goal is to set one up as an instrument controller i.e. using the built > in GPIB and potentially a 2nd GPIB card. > > One thing I do not have is a display, keyboard and mouse. > > A few question > > Is there a PS/2 or USB (yea long shot) adapter for the HPIL interface ? > > Does someone have a keyboard/mouse they a not beholding to, or know > where there maybe one ? > > Once I get the opened up and take an inventory, anything I should look out > for be trying to power one of them up ? > > Can one boot to a terminal on the RS-232 port. Until I find a kbd/mouse ? > > What would be optimum version of HP-UX to run on them ? > > -pete Wow great find, those are nice 9000s, I have been looking for one with ethernet and SCSI. You will find lots of documentation for them at hpmuseum.net. It would seem that the display interface is standard VGA, however as you discovered the keyboard is HP-HIL. HP did make a PS/2 adapter module, however it would seem they are extremely rare, I would like to get one too. I have also though of building my own, the usual interface is a custom chip made by HP that handles most of the protocol, that is coupled with a National Semiconductor COP series microcontroller using the microwire interface, I have some of these obtained from other HIL devices, the one that is the most promising is from an ID module it has all of the HIL hardware in it and a ROM-less COP420 so all of its code is in an external EPROM making it easy to alter. There is documentation available for the HP-HIL protocol. There are HP-HIL keyboards and mice available on eBay but they are not cheap. The 382 apparently has space for internal disks so you may be in luck and find it still has an OS installed, the 382 owner guide I found says the minimum level of HP-UX is 8.0, I would guess that at some point HP stopped supporting the 68K machines but I am not sure when that happened. I looked through the users guide and there is no mention of using a serial console, however is there is an OS installed it is possible that a serial port could be set up as a workstation. Paul. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 09:02:20 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 15:02:20 +0000 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: References: <56A29596.4040509@cimmeri.com>, Message-ID: > > Well. It depends if you read the schematics before you do so. In this case > I powered the startup voltage from a 12 V bench supply. Normally the > startup voltage comes from a small mains transformer and a 7812. Then I > supplied the primary side voltage for the main switch transistor using a > variac. Works perfectly well if you know what you are doing. Have done this > practice with many SMPS supplies. Remember an SMPSU approximates to a constant _power_ load. It will draw more current as the input voltage decreases. As a result, if the supply is fairly well loaded on the output side, the primary side current can be high enough to damage the chopper transistor if you run it at low input voltage. -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 23 09:54:53 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 10:54:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: ESR meter recommendations. Message-ID: <20160123155453.36A7118C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > What meter do you have and recommend? My capacitance meter is a Uyigao UA6013L, and I'm quite happy with it; it seems pretty reasonable build-quality. A number of people on eBay are selling them, IIRC. My ESR meter is, alas, literall nameless - I looked on both the meter, and the (single-sheet) documentation, and there's no name anywhere. (Yes, yes, I know, I got what I paid for - which was not much! :-) Noel From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 10:13:19 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 10:13:19 -0600 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: References: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <56A3A69F.2040901@gmail.com> On 01/22/2016 06:26 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > The translucent yellow Rifa (now owned by Kemet) class X/Y safety > capacitors in particular have a 100% failure rate and are on my > replace-on-sight list. They usually begin to show visible signs of cracking > in their outer casing before they finally go out with a bang. It's a well-known fault, but has anyone ever known one fail and actually cause any damage (other than to itself)? AIUI, they're there to reduce noise from the device leaking back out onto the AC supply - a system should run quite happily without them. I've had maybe four or five fail on me over the years, out of several hundred systems. They're a definite weak spot, but given that I've never heard of one damaging anything it's the sort of thing I'd consider doing only if I was carrying out some other repair work on the PSU. > I usually replace them with a film capacitor from Epcos of the same > value and safety class. Is the voltage rating on the US ones different (new vs. old)? I can't remember now. I know all the old UK ones seemed to be 250V, while modern parts were rated at 275V. cheers Jules From js at cimmeri.com Sat Jan 23 10:23:16 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 11:23:16 -0500 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: References: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <56A3A8F4.7020000@cimmeri.com> On 1/23/2016 5:40 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > This is a 0.0033 uF 1600VDC SPARAGUE capacitor. It looks nice and orange > and there are no signs of cracks whatsoever. > > What is the likelihood of this being bad? Not highly likely, but possible. Just put another one in temporarily and see if it solves your problem. Or try to measure what kind of current is causing the resistor to heat up -- is there AC across it, or is that cap leaking? - J. From js at cimmeri.com Sat Jan 23 10:48:24 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 11:48:24 -0500 Subject: ESR meter recommendations. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56A3AED8.70905@cimmeri.com> On 1/23/2016 9:22 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Yes. agree with you.I really should get one....What meter do you have and recommend? I use the BLUE ESR Meter of AnaTek Corp (designed by Bob Parker). I've been using it for several years and really like it. - J. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 11:42:22 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 09:42:22 -0800 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> Message-ID: As already mentioned, you should start off looking at http://www.hpmuseum.net for documentation and software for the HP 9000/382 I obtained an .ISO image of the HP-UX 9.0 installation CD-ROM there along with HP BASIC 6.2 images, both stand alone BASIC and BASIC/UX. There are currently no direct download links for those images. Jon Johnston there has been great about responding to requests for images if you send him an email. The SCSI hard drive in my 9000/382 was dead when I received it. It was fairly straight forward to install HP-UX 9.0 from scratch on a replacement hard drive from a SCSI CD-ROM. I forget how much memory mine had when I received. I found some additional memory to install and that helped with performance running HP-UX 9.0. I don't think I ever got around to trying to use HP BASIC to control any GPIB interface test equipment yet. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 12:01:16 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:01:16 +0000 Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: <56A3A69F.2040901@gmail.com> References: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> , <56A3A69F.2040901@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > It's a well-known fault, but has anyone ever known one fail and actually > cause any damage (other than to itself)? AIUI, they're there to reduce Not really. Maybe a blown fuse. I have had the live-earth capacitor in a filter fail and trip the RCD in my consumer unit (meaning I was in the dark until I reset t). Does damage to my nerves count :-) If one of these capacitors in a mains filter circuit fails I tend to replace the lot (for all I don't like shotgun debugging). If I was repairing something for somebody else then I'd probably change them [1]). I might change them if I was rebulding the PSU section of a machine I own. Otherwise I just leave them until the fail. [1] Otherwise when they fail a few weeks/months/years later I might find I have to replace them for free. Incidentally, some machines have those sealed metal cans containing filter capacitors, inductors and sometimes discharge resistors [2]. Has anyone ever had the capacitors in one of those fail? [2] I wish the manufacturers would print a schematic on the can, or at least in an available data sheet. If I measure a 1M leak to earth from the live pin (say), I want to know if it's a deliberate discharging resistor or a leaking capacitor. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 23 13:33:15 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 19:33:15 -0000 Subject: VAXELN Datagram Service Message-ID: <00ef01d15614$e7991900$b6cb4b00$@ntlworld.com> I am doing a bit of VAXELN programming and I am trying to get the Datagram Service to only read packets of a certain EtherType, but unless I use promiscuous mode, nothing is read. Here is the relevant code: form.format = ELN$K_NI_PTT; form.mux.ptt = 0x0360; mode = 0; pad = 0; eln$ni_connect(&status, &portalId, config.clist.list[i].control_port, &dispatchPort, &form, NULL, &mode, NULL, NULL, NULL, NULL, NULL, &pad); Anyone know why this might not return any packets at all when I wait on the port? Regards Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 09:05:34 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 15:05:34 +0000 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > The other thing to be aware of is the emergency head retract batteries are toast and should > be replaced with a 3.6v NiCd pack, that way if the power fails you don't trash a pack. I thought originally it was a 4.8V pack (4 cells). Over here a common cordless telephone used the same pack about 20 years ago, so spares for that (available quite easily) went in my RK05s... The RK06/RK07 has an 8 cell pack, it's exactly 2 RK05 packs in series. > They are really nice drives for saying they where DEC's first removable media hard drive, a > bit heavy to move but not that bad. I can't get one onto the rack sliders on my own if it's fully assembled. I normally remove the PSU and positioner and then it is quite easy... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 09:11:27 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 15:11:27 +0000 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > This one looks like it's in really good condition, but I have read about > those issues. I'm just going to monitor it closely when initially mounting > packs to verify the seals and integrity. As much as I hate to do so, I know > it's common to run these without the top cover on for calibration purposes. > Any tips for that? Maybe a piece of plexiglas over the heads to avoid any > potential dust or should I not worry too much? It is not a problem. The outer casing is not sealed anyway. Clean air (from the absolute filter) is blown in the bottom of the pack, then out over the head area If any dust gets near there it will be blown away from the heads. Be sensible about it, don't smoke when working on these drives. But other than that there is nothng to worry about. > > The other thing to be aware of is the emergency head retract batteries are > > toast and should be replaced with a 3.6v NiCd pack, that way if the power > > fails you don't trash a pack. > > > > This is also on my list of things to do. Is there anyway to test this > function without using a pack to verify it after replaced? With the mains off and no pack loaded, slip a folded lens tissue (or similar) between the heads (in case they do touch) and carefully pull the carriage towards the front of the drive. You should not be able to do it, as soon as it gets off the end stop and the microswitch releases, it should snap back home again very sharply. That's due to the NiCd being connected to the positioner coil, of course. -tony From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 14:18:10 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 14:18:10 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> Message-ID: First off, my bad - I thought the OP was wanting to change the device ID (which is not the drive number, btw**) on a genuine 1541. I'd have no idea how it's done with one of the SD-based drive emulators. "Given the potential flakiness of 1541 drives, why make permanent hardware changes when a basic program allows you to assign the drive to whatever you want for the temporary need of the day?" Though I'm not entirely sure it exists, any "potential flakiness" is probably a very good reason to make the change in hardware. Device IDs assigned via software (with a M-W command to the DOS) don't persist between drive resets and may not persist between serial bus resets either, for that matter. So if the drive does screw up and requires a power cycle, you're back to device 8 again afterwards. This means shutting off one drive, re-assigning the device ID to 9 or whatever, then powering on the second drive. If you're using more than two drives, it really becomes a hassle. In any event, just install a switch (or pair of them..) on each drive and all is well. (** Devices on the CBM serial bus (or IEC bus) have device IDs, with the disk drives usually being 8,9,10 and 11. Each device can actually have two physical drives, 0 and 1. Now in the later era (1540 and beyond) there's only one physical drive per device, which is device 0, the default. But in case you ever wondered why the correct syntax for a DOS command has this "extra" 0:, now you know - as in OPEN 15,8,15,"I0:". It's explicitly specifying drive 0.. as opposed to drive 1.) On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 8:00 AM, william degnan wrote: > > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beige-SD2IEC-Commodore-1541-Disk-Drive-Emulation-SD-Card-Reader-Vic20-C128-C64-/330919501256?hash=item4d0c56ddc8:g:7sUAAOxy0NtTEQKk > > > > > > > > Also having rtouble hooking up my original floppy drive as " LOAD > "$" > > > > ,9,1 > > > > > > > ?How are the jumper on the reak floppy to be set?? > > > Have you tried to simply run a basic program to temporarily reassign the > drive number? This is documented on the web. For example see page 39 > here (ignore the fact that this is for a VIC 1541, the method is > universal): > > > http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/pdfs/commodore_vic_1541_floppy_drive_users_manual.pdf > > Given the potential flakiness of 1541 drives, why make permanent hardware > changes when a basic program allows you to assign the drive to whatever you > want for the temporary need of the day? > > Try the following for your SD card drive, My case is different but the > insides are the same > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=490 > > At the bottom the thread there is a link to more info. > > Google is your friend, he misses you. > > > b > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 14:40:28 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 12:40:28 -0800 Subject: Character ROMs for HP 2631G printer / 264x terminals In-Reply-To: <5D990CE1-E80F-4D9D-A5B1-686ECFC772C9@gmail.com> References: <000301d14dc5$bcab1600$36014200$@gmail.com> <001501d14e0e$5bc79450$1356bcf0$@classiccmp.org> <664CD9D7-04F8-4CF4-AEB6-AC41827499D2@gmail.com> <5D990CE1-E80F-4D9D-A5B1-686ECFC772C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 2:13 AM, wrote: > No, but I have an HP 1670G, does the same trick. I also managed to install it as a printer on Windows 98 using a GPIB ISA card and National Instruments DOS drivers. Even had the choice of 14 7/8 inch fan fold paper in the printer dialog! I'm working on a nicer HP only demo. > Marc Cool, make a demo video of the 2631G doing a print screen from the 1670G sometime. That would be interesting to see. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 14:53:38 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 15:53:38 -0500 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > "Given the potential flakiness of 1541 drives, why make permanent hardware > changes when a basic program allows you to assign the drive to whatever you > want for the temporary need of the day?" > > Though I'm not entirely sure it exists, any "potential flakiness" is > probably a very good reason to make the change in hardware. Device IDs > assigned via software (with a M-W command to the DOS) don't persist between > drive resets and may not persist between serial bus resets either, for that > matter. So if the drive does screw up and requires a power cycle, you're > back to device 8 again afterwards. This means shutting off one drive, > re-assigning the device ID to 9 or whatever, then powering on the second > drive. > > If you're using more than two drives, it really becomes a hassle. In any > event, just install a switch (or pair of them..) on each drive and all is > well. > > > How about a middle ground then, if you must control drive assignment with hardware, put in a jumper that can be changed externally without opening the case each time, or a switch. Further, I my friendly opinion that one should start with a software solution. Switch to hardware when it becomes a hassle and you're 100% sure you want to leave it permanently. I switch things around all of the time, to me it's just part of what you do with Commodore drives. Among other useful tools I have a drive assignment program on my SD drive root. Here is a link to a video I made to demonstrate commodore drive assignment using a Commodore B-128, 8050 drive, D9090 drive, and 1571 drive together https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBeFXDWbw8A b From brain at jbrain.com Sat Jan 23 15:12:02 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 15:12:02 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> On 1/23/2016 2:18 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > First off, my bad - I thought the OP was wanting to change the device ID > (which is not the drive number, btw**) on a genuine 1541. I'd have no idea > how it's done with one of the SD-based drive emulators. Google is still a friend: https://www.google.com/search?q=sd2iec+change+device+numbers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 There are no external switches on some of these drives. But, the BASIC commands used to switch device numbers on the 1541 also work on these units, and putting an extra char at the end of the command will make the changes permanent, as I recall. Jim From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Jan 23 15:47:56 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 22:47:56 +0100 Subject: opening the drive door/lid of an RM03 ? Message-ID: Hello readers, I cleaned the first of my RM03 drives today. The drive is quite clean even after several years of no attention. Just a few spiders webs and tiny dead spiders, and little dust. I picked up this drive in Turin Italy, together with Edward several years ago. I cannot remember doing it, but the head lock pin was in the lock position. After cleaning and a good inspection (I found a small metal bracket piece next to the PSU output plugs, and have not found where it came from!), I mounted a mains power plug to the drive cable. Massbus cable is attached to the drive, the other end is not connected to anything. After setting all circuit breakers ON (two inside the drive, two at the rear side next to the running hours counter), I plugged the mains in and switched mains on. I hear humming of the fans, so it seems OK. However, this is my problem: the door latch stays locked, I cannot open the lid. I want to open the lid to clean the inside of the drive bay. After some reading (EK-RM023-TD-001_RM02_03_Tech_May78.pdf), I found this in chapter 4.4 (page 4-7): The initialize sequence starts with the receipt of a Massbus INIT signal from either port A or B. This sequence is used to condition both the adapter and drive circuits to a known reset state. The functional block diagram for the initialize command is shown in Figure 4-5. The Massbus INIT signal (whether coming from port A or B) clears the AT A bit in the attention summary register in the IF module. In the CS module, it is converted to the MBA clear signal which performs the following: 1. Clears the enable search latch 2. Sets the on latch 3. etc. So, do I understand this correctly that without an initial Massbus INIT signal the lid remains locked? Or has this RM03 drive a "lock issue"? If somebody has an RM03 drive, is it possible to open the lid without Massbus cables hooked to the RH70 or RH11 controller? Is that Massbus connection required + INIT command to unlock the lid? I have not yet cleaned the other two RM03 drives, and I do not want to apply power without cleaning and inspection! So, I cannot check whether all 3 drives keep the lid locked. I forgot to take the camera with me, but I will take pictures! Thanks, - Henk From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 16:07:48 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 17:07:48 -0500 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 1/23/2016 2:18 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> First off, my bad - I thought the OP was wanting to change the device ID >> (which is not the drive number, btw**) on a genuine 1541. I'd have no idea >> how it's done with one of the SD-based drive emulators. >> > Google is still a friend: > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=sd2iec+change+device+numbers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 > > There are no external switches on some of these drives. > > But, the BASIC commands used to switch device numbers on the 1541 also > work on these units, and putting an extra char at the end of the command > will make the changes permanent, as I recall. > > Jim > Right. I am saying don't make a permanent hardware change to a 1541 that does not have the switches unless you really want it to be permanent because there is a software method of assigning drives that is good enough most of the time. BUT if you must make it permanent and you don't have the external switches, consider adding some form of external switch so you don't ever have to open the case again to put it back to the default. Less likely to burn traces, etc if you can avoid working on the same circuit more than once. b From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 16:05:02 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 16:05:02 -0600 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Joshua Stetson wrote: > > Over the past couple of years, I've managed to work back even further, > piecing together a PDP-8/e system from various parts collected over the > past 4 years and now I have a fully working 8/e including 32kw of core and > an RK05E card set. I've been running the system using Kyle Owen's > os8diskserver and David Gesswein's sendtape utilities which both work > absolutely wonderfully. It was amazing to be able to run Adventure on a > native system! > > I'd like to send a shout out to Kyle for the os8diskserver, that is some > pretty awesome work there. David for his software and archive of DEC > documentation which was indispensable for helping me debug a few boards and > get everything running and tested. I also want to thank Vincent Slyngstad > for his help and support on some questions. Always happy to hear of another happy user! Even better to hear of another working 8/E. Hope you get your RK05 going. I am still waiting for a good deal on an RK05; I'll probably have a custom SD card board made for the Omnibus before that happens, though... :) Kyle From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Jan 23 16:40:10 2016 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 23:40:10 +0100 Subject: RIFA EMI caps [WAS: Re: VT100 PSU smelling.] In-Reply-To: References: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <56A4014A.2070902@update.uu.se> On 01/23/2016 01:26 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > > They can. The translucent yellow Rifa (now owned by Kemet) class X/Y > safety capacitors in particular have a 100% failure rate and are on my > replace-on-sight list. They usually begin to show visible signs of > cracking in their outer casing before they finally go out with a bang. > It seems to be due to chemical decomposition of the paper insulator > which swells over time and causes the case to crack. I usually replace > them with a film capacitor from Epcos of the same value and safety class. I have heard similar from a few other places. And I'm replacing a five of these in a bigger SGI PSU as preventive maintenance. A few of them are showing cracks. All I could find were new similar Kemet capacitors. Do you know if newer Kemet suffer from the same problem and I will regret buying them? Thanks, Pontus. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 23 18:06:20 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 16:06:20 -0800 Subject: RIFA EMI caps [WAS: Re: VT100 PSU smelling.] In-Reply-To: <56A4014A.2070902@update.uu.se> References: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> <56A4014A.2070902@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56A4157C.7030209@sydex.com> On 01/23/2016 02:40 PM, Pontus wrote: > All I could find were new similar Kemet capacitors. Do you know if newer > Kemet suffer from the same problem and I will regret buying them? I usually replace the Rifa capacitors with equivalent polyester safety caps (X or Y rated). Kemets are most common and work just fine. It's not a bad idea, if you're in a 240AC mains country to bump the AC voltage rating up a bit. I've seen too many line filters with 250VAC rated caps labeled for either 120 or 240V use. That would make me nervous if I lived in a 240V country. --Chuck From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 18:28:25 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:28:25 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, Jim Brain wrote: > On 1/23/2016 2:18 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >First off, my bad - I thought the OP was wanting to change the device ID > >(which is not the drive number, btw**) on a genuine 1541. I'd have no idea > >how it's done with one of the SD-based drive emulators. > Google is still a friend: > > https://www.google.com/search?q=sd2iec+change+device+numbers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 > > There are no external switches on some of these drives. > > But, the BASIC commands used to switch device numbers on the 1541 also work > on these units, and putting an extra char at the end of the command will > make the changes permanent, as I recall. > > Jim Jim, don't you sell a device that's useful for temporarily switching off specific drives so the device numbers can be changed more easily? -- Eric Christopherson From brain at jbrain.com Sat Jan 23 18:33:21 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:33:21 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56A41BD1.7090305@jbrain.com> On 1/23/2016 6:28 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, Jim Brain wrote: >> On 1/23/2016 2:18 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >>> First off, my bad - I thought the OP was wanting to change the device ID >>> (which is not the drive number, btw**) on a genuine 1541. I'd have no idea >>> how it's done with one of the SD-based drive emulators. >> Google is still a friend: >> >> https://www.google.com/search?q=sd2iec+change+device+numbers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 >> >> There are no external switches on some of these drives. >> >> But, the BASIC commands used to switch device numbers on the 1541 also work >> on these units, and putting an extra char at the end of the command will >> make the changes permanent, as I recall. >> >> Jim > Jim, don't you sell a device that's useful for temporarily switching off > specific drives so the device numbers can be changed more easily? > QuadPortIEC, but you can also just switch the ATN line on the cable. Disabling the ATN (Attention) line means the drive will not respond to any commands. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 18:46:47 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 13:46:47 +1300 Subject: opening the drive door/lid of an RM03 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Strange. Here's one of mine. No lid issues! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcc5fJOgp7A Mike On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Hello readers, > I cleaned the first of my RM03 drives today. The drive is quite clean > even after several years of no attention. Just a few spiders webs and > tiny dead spiders, and little dust. I picked up this drive in Turin > Italy, together with Edward several years ago. I cannot remember doing > it, but the head lock pin was in the lock position. > After cleaning and a good inspection (I found a small metal bracket > piece next to the PSU output plugs, and have not found where it came > from!), I mounted a mains power plug to the drive cable. Massbus cable > is attached to the drive, the other end is not connected to anything. > After setting all circuit breakers ON (two inside the drive, two at the > rear side next to the running hours counter), I plugged the mains in > and switched mains on. I hear humming of the fans, so it seems OK. > > However, this is my problem: the door latch stays locked, I cannot open > the lid. I want to open the lid to clean the inside of the drive bay. > After some reading (EK-RM023-TD-001_RM02_03_Tech_May78.pdf), I found > this in chapter 4.4 (page 4-7): > > The initialize sequence starts with the receipt of a Massbus INIT > signal from either port A or B. This sequence is used to condition both > the adapter and drive circuits to a known reset state. The functional > block diagram for the initialize command is shown in Figure 4-5. > The Massbus INIT signal (whether coming from port A or B) clears the > AT A bit in the attention summary register in the IF module. In the CS > module, it is converted to the MBA clear signal which performs the > following: > 1. Clears the enable search latch > 2. Sets the on latch > 3. etc. > > So, do I understand this correctly that without an initial Massbus INIT > signal the lid remains locked? Or has this RM03 drive a "lock issue"? > If somebody has an RM03 drive, is it possible to open the lid without > Massbus cables hooked to the RH70 or RH11 controller? Is that Massbus > connection required + INIT command to unlock the lid? > > I have not yet cleaned the other two RM03 drives, and I do not want to > apply power without cleaning and inspection! So, I cannot check whether > all 3 drives keep the lid locked. > > I forgot to take the camera with me, but I will take pictures! > > Thanks, > - Henk -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 19:15:26 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 19:15:26 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: <56A41BD1.7090305@jbrain.com> References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> <56A41BD1.7090305@jbrain.com> Message-ID: " I am saying don't make a permanent hardware change to a 1541 that does not have the switches unless you really want it to be permanent because there is a software method of assigning drives that is good enough most of the time. BUT if you must make it permanent and you don't have the external switches, consider adding some form of external switch so you don't ever have to open the case again to put it back to the default." Well then, we're having a major agreement. ;-) The device ID switch is the ultimate fix for Commodore drives, and I'm really not sure why CBM didn't incorporate one into the design - at least from the 1540 on upwards. Can't have cost much to add a discretely located access hole (or a knock-out) in the case, along with a 2-place DIP switch for controlling device ID. Grumble grumble.. On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 6:33 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 1/23/2016 6:28 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > >> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, Jim Brain wrote: >> >>> On 1/23/2016 2:18 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >>> >>>> First off, my bad - I thought the OP was wanting to change the device ID >>>> (which is not the drive number, btw**) on a genuine 1541. I'd have no >>>> idea >>>> how it's done with one of the SD-based drive emulators. >>>> >>> Google is still a friend: >>> >>> >>> https://www.google.com/search?q=sd2iec+change+device+numbers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 >>> >>> There are no external switches on some of these drives. >>> >>> But, the BASIC commands used to switch device numbers on the 1541 also >>> work >>> on these units, and putting an extra char at the end of the command will >>> make the changes permanent, as I recall. >>> >>> Jim >>> >> Jim, don't you sell a device that's useful for temporarily switching off >> specific drives so the device numbers can be changed more easily? >> >> QuadPortIEC, but you can also just switch the ATN line on the cable. > Disabling the ATN (Attention) line means the drive will not respond to any > commands. > > Jim > > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 19:21:43 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 19:21:43 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> <56A41BD1.7090305@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Pardon the quick re-post.. FYI, you don't actually need a BASIC program to change a drive ID. This 'one-liner' will do the job just fine: OPEN 15,8,15:PRINT#15,"M-W";CHR$(119);CHR$(0);CHR$(2);CHR$(*device number* +32)+CHR$(*device numver*+64):CLOSE 15 Again, this change will not persist between drive (and possibly IEC bus) resets. The drive will reset to its original hardware-assigned device number (8 on an unmodified drive) upon reset. On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 7:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > " I am saying don't make a permanent hardware change to a 1541 that > does not have the switches unless you really want it to be permanent > because there is a software method of assigning drives that is good enough > most of the time. BUT if you must make it permanent and you don't have the > external switches, consider adding some form of external switch so you > don't ever have to open the case again to put it back to the default." > > Well then, we're having a major agreement. ;-) > > The device ID switch is the ultimate fix for Commodore drives, and I'm > really not sure why CBM didn't incorporate one into the design - at least > from the 1540 on upwards. Can't have cost much to add a discretely located > access hole (or a knock-out) in the case, along with a 2-place DIP switch > for controlling device ID. > > Grumble grumble.. > > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 6:33 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > >> On 1/23/2016 6:28 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, Jim Brain wrote: >>> >>>> On 1/23/2016 2:18 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >>>> >>>>> First off, my bad - I thought the OP was wanting to change the device >>>>> ID >>>>> (which is not the drive number, btw**) on a genuine 1541. I'd have no >>>>> idea >>>>> how it's done with one of the SD-based drive emulators. >>>>> >>>> Google is still a friend: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=sd2iec+change+device+numbers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 >>>> >>>> There are no external switches on some of these drives. >>>> >>>> But, the BASIC commands used to switch device numbers on the 1541 also >>>> work >>>> on these units, and putting an extra char at the end of the command will >>>> make the changes permanent, as I recall. >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>> Jim, don't you sell a device that's useful for temporarily switching off >>> specific drives so the device numbers can be changed more easily? >>> >>> QuadPortIEC, but you can also just switch the ATN line on the cable. >> Disabling the ATN (Attention) line means the drive will not respond to any >> commands. >> >> Jim >> >> >> -- >> Jim Brain >> brain at jbrain.com >> www.jbrain.com >> >> > From brain at jbrain.com Sat Jan 23 19:33:54 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 19:33:54 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> <56A41BD1.7090305@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <56A42A02.9090303@jbrain.com> On 1/23/2016 7:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > " I am saying don't make a permanent hardware change to a 1541 that > does not have the switches unless you really want it to be permanent > because there is a software method of assigning drives that is good enough > most of the time. BUT if you must make it permanent and you don't have the > external switches, consider adding some form of external switch so you > don't ever have to open the case again to put it back to the default." > > Well then, we're having a major agreement. ;-) > > The device ID switch is the ultimate fix for Commodore drives, and I'm > really not sure why CBM didn't incorporate one into the design - at least > from the 1540 on upwards. Can't have cost much to add a discretely located > access hole (or a knock-out) in the case, along with a 2-place DIP switch > for controlling device ID. But, they did. The 1541-II, 71, and the 81 have switches. I would disagree on your point that Commodore should have made it part of the design... Let's travel back in time. After the PET intro, Peddle designs a drive, a beast of a device, with 2 CPUs and it costs a fortune. Peddle is convinced a smart drive is best, and the delay allows other manufactures to create "dumb" drive options (saw one at World of Commodore, forgot the name). Tramiel is mad, and the drive doesn;t sell terribly well at first. When the VIC-20 comes out, the drive is just marketing materials. Why would someone want a business storage system for a home computer basically built because Jack needs to unload a bunch of VIC-I ICs that he can't sell to video game firms? But, people asked for it, and CBM delivered, taking Peddles IEEE design, ditching the IEEE cabling (Jack: "Get OFF that bus", as the cables from Belden/Beldin(sp?) cost a mint and supplies had been spotty at times). The unit is retooled to use 1 drive, 1 CPU (and in the process the changes introduce the fabled "save with replace" bug. Enter the 1540 But, the designers put little jumper pads on the drive to set dev number, as they were very sure most people would never buy two of them. Then the 64. Paddle's ColorPET design loses out to a hacked VIC-20, which became the 64 Now the drive seems more useful, and can be made more cheaply. As well, other units in the marketplace have drives, so it is a competitive need. All is well, though, as the 1540 is already in production. Dump some gray tan/gray colorant in the injection mold machines, and you're done. That's classic Jack. The 1540 has a problem though. The bit banging protocol (introduced late in the 1540 design cycle after it was determined that the VIC shift register has issues) fails on the 64. high/low times are 20uS/20uS, and sometimes the CPU is stopped for 50uS on the 64. Enter the 1541. No changes except the ROM, which slows down sends from the drive to the 64 to 60/60uS clock. Jack is done. He doesn't care if people buy them per se, just that the drive is there so he can tout it being there as he competes with the Apples and Ataris. So, at the time, with the drive being as much as the computer, no one thought people would buy more than 1, and thus no need to pay for extra parts (switches) and changing the molds. With the C128 and the case redesigns, people were buying multiple drives, and it was a selling point, so the switches made their appearance. Jim From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 20:20:27 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 20:20:27 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: <56A42A02.9090303@jbrain.com> References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> <56A41BD1.7090305@jbrain.com> <56A42A02.9090303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Jim, That's an interesting and colorful narrative, and much of it makes good sense - in the giddy days of the 1980s home computer market, and for CBM in particular. But speaking as one who was fairly hot & heavy into the VIC-20 (and then almost immediately the C-64), this 'drive ID' issue has more-or-less dogged us since day one. While it's true that +most+ end-users couldn't or didn't buy a second 1541, it was very common to connect two or more drives to a single machine for demonstrations, software shows, user group meetings or what might have been the 1980's equivalent of the LAN party.. where we shared & swapped software. And on top of that, as time wore on, there were a number of programs that supported multiple drives. So we can agree that Jack, being Jack, had his reasons. But ultimately, I still see this decision as short-sighted. There's a reason that the circuit board jumper pads were well-publicized, as were the many text files on adding device ID switches to the 1541. On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 7:33 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 1/23/2016 7:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> " I am saying don't make a permanent hardware change to a 1541 that >> does not have the switches unless you really want it to be permanent >> because there is a software method of assigning drives that is good enough >> most of the time. BUT if you must make it permanent and you don't have >> the >> external switches, consider adding some form of external switch so you >> don't ever have to open the case again to put it back to the default." >> >> Well then, we're having a major agreement. ;-) >> >> The device ID switch is the ultimate fix for Commodore drives, and I'm >> really not sure why CBM didn't incorporate one into the design - at least >> from the 1540 on upwards. Can't have cost much to add a discretely located >> access hole (or a knock-out) in the case, along with a 2-place DIP switch >> for controlling device ID. >> > But, they did. The 1541-II, 71, and the 81 have switches. > > I would disagree on your point that Commodore should have made it part of > the design... > > Let's travel back in time. > > After the PET intro, Peddle designs a drive, a beast of a device, with 2 > CPUs and it costs a fortune. Peddle is convinced a smart drive is best, > and the delay allows other manufactures to create "dumb" drive options (saw > one at World of Commodore, forgot the name). > > Tramiel is mad, and the drive doesn;t sell terribly well at first. > > When the VIC-20 comes out, the drive is just marketing materials. Why > would someone want a business storage system for a home computer basically > built because Jack needs to unload a bunch of VIC-I ICs that he can't sell > to video game firms? > > But, people asked for it, and CBM delivered, taking Peddles IEEE design, > ditching the IEEE cabling (Jack: "Get OFF that bus", as the cables from > Belden/Beldin(sp?) cost a mint and supplies had been spotty at times). The > unit is retooled to use 1 drive, 1 CPU (and in the process the changes > introduce the fabled "save with replace" bug. Enter the 1540 > > But, the designers put little jumper pads on the drive to set dev number, > as they were very sure most people would never buy two of them. > > Then the 64. Paddle's ColorPET design loses out to a hacked VIC-20, which > became the 64 > > Now the drive seems more useful, and can be made more cheaply. As well, > other units in the marketplace have drives, so it is a competitive need. > All is well, though, as the 1540 is already in production. Dump some gray > tan/gray colorant in the injection mold machines, and you're done. That's > classic Jack. > > The 1540 has a problem though. The bit banging protocol (introduced late > in the 1540 design cycle after it was determined that the VIC shift > register has issues) fails on the 64. high/low times are 20uS/20uS, and > sometimes the CPU is stopped for 50uS on the 64. Enter the 1541. No > changes except the ROM, which slows down sends from the drive to the 64 to > 60/60uS clock. Jack is done. He doesn't care if people buy them per se, > just that the drive is there so he can tout it being there as he competes > with the Apples and Ataris. > > So, at the time, with the drive being as much as the computer, no one > thought people would buy more than 1, and thus no need to pay for extra > parts (switches) and changing the molds. > > With the C128 and the case redesigns, people were buying multiple drives, > and it was a selling point, so the switches made their appearance. > > Jim > From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Jan 23 20:47:40 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 20:47:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: RIFA EMI caps [WAS: Re: VT100 PSU smelling.] In-Reply-To: <56A4157C.7030209@sydex.com> References: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> <56A4014A.2070902@update.uu.se> <56A4157C.7030209@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/23/2016 02:40 PM, Pontus wrote: > >> All I could find were new similar Kemet capacitors. Do you know if >> newer Kemet suffer from the same problem and I will regret buying them? > > I usually replace the Rifa capacitors with equivalent polyester safety > caps (X or Y rated). Kemets are most common and work just fine. It's > not a bad idea, if you're in a 240AC mains country to bump the AC > voltage rating up a bit. I've seen too many line filters with 250VAC > rated caps labeled for either 120 or 240V use. That would make me > nervous if I lived in a 240V country. Kemet bought out Rifa and the parts from Kemet with the same P/N also use a paper insulator. Rifa used to tout the paper insulator as a selling point, but after seeing so many fail, I won't touch them, new manufacture or not. I'm using Epcos brand polyester film safety capacitors as replacements. So far I've been able to match them up 1:1 with the correct physical sizes (lead spacing) and values. From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 20:50:18 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 20:50:18 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> <56A41BD1.7090305@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20160124025017.GH89321@gmail.com> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, drlegendre . wrote: > " I am saying don't make a permanent hardware change to a 1541 that > does not have the switches unless you really want it to be permanent > because there is a software method of assigning drives that is good enough > most of the time. BUT if you must make it permanent and you don't have the > external switches, consider adding some form of external switch so you > don't ever have to open the case again to put it back to the default." > > Well then, we're having a major agreement. ;-) > > The device ID switch is the ultimate fix for Commodore drives, and I'm > really not sure why CBM didn't incorporate one into the design - at least > from the 1540 on upwards. Can't have cost much to add a discretely located > access hole (or a knock-out) in the case, along with a 2-place DIP switch > for controlling device ID. I'm feeling my C128 privilege here -- the 1571 and 1581 always had DIPs for just that purpose, and I never even realized the 1540/1 didn't. -- Eric Christopherson From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Jan 23 20:53:09 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 20:53:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: References: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 2016, Mattis Lind wrote: >>> I don't have a ESR meter or similar. It is not shorted at least and >>> the resistance is in the several mega ohm range when measuring in >>> circuit. Are they likely to go bad in a non catastrophic way? >> >> They can. The translucent yellow Rifa (now owned by Kemet) class X/Y >> safety capacitors in particular have a 100% failure rate and are on my >> replace-on-sight list. They usually begin to show visible signs of >> cracking in their outer casing before they finally go out with a bang. >> It seems to be due to chemical decomposition of the paper insulator >> which swells over time and causes the case to crack. I usually replace >> them with a film capacitor from Epcos of the same value and safety >> class. > > This is a 0.0033 uF 1600VDC SPARAGUE capacitor. It looks nice and orange > and there are no signs of cracks whatsoever. > > What is the likelihood of this being bad? I've seen similar Panasonic and Sprague film capacitors fail in snubbers used in flyback circuits, so it is certainly possible. As inexpensive and readily available as these parts are, when in doubt, I just replace them. I would probably also replace the series resistor is there is any doubt that it might not be reliable (I often do this for carbon comp and carbon film resistors used in series with the Rifa safety capacitors I replace). From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 20:58:23 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 20:58:23 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: <56A42A02.9090303@jbrain.com> References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> <56A41BD1.7090305@jbrain.com> <56A42A02.9090303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20160124025822.GI89321@gmail.com> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, Jim Brain wrote: > On 1/23/2016 7:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >" I am saying don't make a permanent hardware change to a 1541 that > >does not have the switches unless you really want it to be permanent > >because there is a software method of assigning drives that is good enough > >most of the time. BUT if you must make it permanent and you don't have the > >external switches, consider adding some form of external switch so you > >don't ever have to open the case again to put it back to the default." > > > >Well then, we're having a major agreement. ;-) > > > >The device ID switch is the ultimate fix for Commodore drives, and I'm > >really not sure why CBM didn't incorporate one into the design - at least > >from the 1540 on upwards. Can't have cost much to add a discretely located > >access hole (or a knock-out) in the case, along with a 2-place DIP switch > >for controlling device ID. > But, they did. The 1541-II, 71, and the 81 have switches. > > I would disagree on your point that Commodore should have made it part of > the design... > > Let's travel back in time. > > After the PET intro, Peddle designs a drive, a beast of a device, with 2 > CPUs and it costs a fortune. Peddle is convinced a smart drive is best, and > the delay allows other manufactures to create "dumb" drive options (saw one > at World of Commodore, forgot the name). How did these dumb drives interface with the computer at a software level? I'd think a DOS would need to be loaded somehow. -- Eric Christopherson From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Jan 23 21:00:15 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 21:00:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: References: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> , <56A3A69F.2040901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 2016, tony duell wrote: > Incidentally, some machines have those sealed metal cans containing > filter capacitors, inductors and sometimes discharge resistors [2]. Has > anyone ever had the capacitors in one of those fail? Actually, yes. I had one fail in one of my scopes. I don't recall the brand/series right now, but it is apparently a known issue with that particular series of filters. I still need to replace the same filters in the other scopes since they will most like do the same thing eventually. > [2] I wish the manufacturers would print a schematic on the can, or at > least in an available data sheet. If I measure a 1M leak to earth from > the live pin (say), I want to know if it's a deliberate discharging > resistor or a leaking capacitor. Most of the IEC320 input filters I've used have a schematic on the can or in the datasheet. They are usually also careful to denote the medical-rated filters which lack the Y-type safety capacitors between the two supply terminals and ground. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Jan 23 21:27:28 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 21:27:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: ESR meter recommendations. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 2016, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2016-01-23 13:54 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa : > >> If you do a lot of work with analog components (and it sounds like you >> do), it's probably worth getting capacitance and ESR meters, they can >> be obtained (new) on eBay for not that much. I have one of each that I >> got that way; their quality is pretty good, considering how little I >> paid for them (I didn't think I'd be using them enough to make it worth >> paying out a lot for really good ones). I haven't used the ESR meter >> much, but the capacitance meter works quite well, and has been very >> helpful. Of course, it can't be used in-circuit, but... > > Yes. agree with you.I really should get one. I have been thinking I need > to get one every time I get my head into anther PSU and then everything > is sorted out and the PSU seems to work fine and I forget about it. I > have been looking at the DerEE DE-5000 which looks nice and has got good > reviews as far as I can tell. What meter do you have and recommend? The one I absolutely cannot in good faith recommend (unless you are going to custom build it) is one that seems to come up in these discussions the most, and that is the Blue ESR from Anatek. The design itself isn't that bad, however Anatek used some of the worst junk-sourced parts I have ever seen when they kitted up the one I bought. I used the pre-programmed micro, the led displays, and most of the fixed value resistors, but junked most of the rest of the components they included and used my own. The trimmer resistors they included didn't even fit the pad layout of the board. The wire they included to make the "test leads" was also really bad quality and was wadded up and kinked. I fitted some shrouded banana jacks to my tester instead of the short hard wired leads. Another thing to keep in mind with the Blue ESR is that the firmware has a limitation and cannot measure small value capacitors (under 0.1uF?) and it also only goes down to 0.01 ohms. From brain at jbrain.com Sat Jan 23 21:28:08 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 21:28:08 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: <20160124025822.GI89321@gmail.com> References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> <56A41BD1.7090305@jbrain.com> <56A42A02.9090303@jbrain.com> <20160124025822.GI89321@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56A444C8.40002@jbrain.com> On 1/23/2016 8:58 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, Jim Brain wrote: >> On 1/23/2016 7:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >>> " I am saying don't make a permanent hardware change to a 1541 that >>> does not have the switches unless you really want it to be permanent >>> because there is a software method of assigning drives that is good enough >>> most of the time. BUT if you must make it permanent and you don't have the >>> external switches, consider adding some form of external switch so you >>> don't ever have to open the case again to put it back to the default." >>> >>> Well then, we're having a major agreement. ;-) >>> >>> The device ID switch is the ultimate fix for Commodore drives, and I'm >>> really not sure why CBM didn't incorporate one into the design - at least >> >from the 1540 on upwards. Can't have cost much to add a discretely located >>> access hole (or a knock-out) in the case, along with a 2-place DIP switch >>> for controlling device ID. >> But, they did. The 1541-II, 71, and the 81 have switches. >> >> I would disagree on your point that Commodore should have made it part of >> the design... >> >> Let's travel back in time. >> >> After the PET intro, Peddle designs a drive, a beast of a device, with 2 >> CPUs and it costs a fortune. Peddle is convinced a smart drive is best, and >> the delay allows other manufactures to create "dumb" drive options (saw one >> at World of Commodore, forgot the name). > How did these dumb drives interface with the computer at a software > level? I'd think a DOS would need to be loaded somehow. > The one I saw at the WoC was a 8" drive connected to a PSU and the cable attached to a small PCB that replaced the editor ROM in the PET. THe PCB mapped a controller into the address space and the editor ROM was patched to support a DOS. It was an interesting setup. Mike N (of 6502.org) had the unit. Steve Gray on here was there too and could provide more details. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Jan 23 21:33:35 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 21:33:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: VT100 PSU smelling. In-Reply-To: <56A3A69F.2040901@gmail.com> References: <01PVSTIYQTQG00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> <56A3A69F.2040901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 2016, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 01/22/2016 06:26 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> The translucent yellow Rifa (now owned by Kemet) class X/Y safety >> capacitors in particular have a 100% failure rate and are on my >> replace-on-sight list. They usually begin to show visible signs of >> cracking in their outer casing before they finally go out with a bang. > > It's a well-known fault, but has anyone ever known one fail and actually > cause any damage (other than to itself)? AIUI, they're there to reduce > noise from the device leaking back out onto the AC supply - a system > should run quite happily without them. > > I've had maybe four or five fail on me over the years, out of several > hundred systems. They're a definite weak spot, but given that I've never > heard of one damaging anything it's the sort of thing I'd consider doing > only if I was carrying out some other repair work on the PSU. I've seen blown/cooked series resistors (which I replace with metal oxide resistors) and sometimes a blown fuse. I always replace them whey I'm doing other work on a psu, however I'm not sure I'd knowingly leave one in place since they let out a lot of smoke when they go. >> I usually replace them with a film capacitor from Epcos of the same >> value and safety class. > > Is the voltage rating on the US ones different (new vs. old)? I can't > remember now. I know all the old UK ones seemed to be 250V, while modern > parts were rated at 275V. Higher voltage parts are available but they are more expensive. I've seen 300V, 350V, 375V and even 400V safety rated parts. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 21:34:08 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 21:34:08 -0600 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: <20160124025822.GI89321@gmail.com> References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> <56A41BD1.7090305@jbrain.com> <56A42A02.9090303@jbrain.com> <20160124025822.GI89321@gmail.com> Message-ID: I can't say much about the other brands, but so far as Apple was concerned, you're exactly correct. The Apple Disk II drives were quite 'dumb' and required a disk controller card (installed in a slot, on the motherboard) plus a software DOS (3.2, 3.3, etc.) loaded at startup from a bootable disc. If one weren't careful, it was no trouble to start up an Apple II machine, write a nice piece of BASIC code, and then be unable to save it to disc - as the DOS had not yet been loaded. Very annoying, but not a mistake you'd make more than once or twice.. as loading the DOS requires a system reset, losing anything in RAM at that time. On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Eric Christopherson < echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, Jim Brain wrote: > > On 1/23/2016 7:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > >" I am saying don't make a permanent hardware change to a 1541 that > > >does not have the switches unless you really want it to be permanent > > >because there is a software method of assigning drives that is good > enough > > >most of the time. BUT if you must make it permanent and you don't have > the > > >external switches, consider adding some form of external switch so you > > >don't ever have to open the case again to put it back to the default." > > > > > >Well then, we're having a major agreement. ;-) > > > > > >The device ID switch is the ultimate fix for Commodore drives, and I'm > > >really not sure why CBM didn't incorporate one into the design - at > least > > >from the 1540 on upwards. Can't have cost much to add a discretely > located > > >access hole (or a knock-out) in the case, along with a 2-place DIP > switch > > >for controlling device ID. > > But, they did. The 1541-II, 71, and the 81 have switches. > > > > I would disagree on your point that Commodore should have made it part of > > the design... > > > > Let's travel back in time. > > > > After the PET intro, Peddle designs a drive, a beast of a device, with 2 > > CPUs and it costs a fortune. Peddle is convinced a smart drive is best, > and > > the delay allows other manufactures to create "dumb" drive options (saw > one > > at World of Commodore, forgot the name). > > How did these dumb drives interface with the computer at a software > level? I'd think a DOS would need to be loaded somehow. > > -- > Eric Christopherson > From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Jan 23 22:55:26 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 04:55:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151230205825.Horde.8RWwTRe4VtC51_f8t4wgsdl@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230154157.Horde.XOFNeqm88EuhcZIszaQNLFL@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230171702.Horde.zPW6DJsDdZe0UZyI5dq886b@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230200158.Horde.HPR3KcEzGG48CWCVdhxqPVK@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230205825.Horde.8RWwTRe4VtC51_f8t4wgsdl@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Dec 2015, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Command 91h did the trick. Issueing this once before any > read/write commands makes the drive finally work! FYI, this is what ATA-2 has to say about this command: "Note: Previous ATA specifications were unclear about the error conditions that this command may indicate. Some implementations do not indicate any errors for this command even when the command fails. However, most of these implementations do fail media access commands if a valid CHS translation is not in effect." -- which is (the latter sentence, that is) obviously what you've been observing with your WD drive. Also: "A device shall support the CHS translation described in words 1, 3 and 6 of the IDENTIFY DEVICE information. Support of other CHS translations is optional." FWIW, and good luck with your project! Maciej From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Jan 23 22:57:54 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 04:57:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230154157.Horde.XOFNeqm88EuhcZIszaQNLFL@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230171702.Horde.zPW6DJsDdZe0UZyI5dq886b@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230200158.Horde.HPR3KcEzGG48CWCVdhxqPVK@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230205825.Horde.8RWwTRe4VtC51_f8t4wgsdl@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 2016, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > "Note: Previous ATA specifications were unclear about the error conditions > that this command may indicate. Some implementations do not indicate any > errors for this command even when the command fails. However, most of > these implementations do fail media access commands if a valid CHS > translation is not in effect." > > -- which is (the latter sentence, that is) obviously what you've been > observing with your WD drive. Furthermore: "Note: Some ATA-1 devices require that this command be issued prior to media access." Maciej From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 23:53:32 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 00:53:32 -0500 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> <56A41BD1.7090305@jbrain.com> <56A42A02.9090303@jbrain.com> <20160124025822.GI89321@gmail.com> <56A444C8.40002@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <9CD688B2B2DF43DCA1E9DDFD3CB64CAC@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2016 10:28 PM Subject: Re: SD Card disk drive for C-64? > On 1/23/2016 8:58 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: >> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, Jim Brain wrote: ... snippage >>> After the PET intro, Peddle designs a drive, a beast of a device, with 2 >>> CPUs and it costs a fortune. Peddle is convinced a smart drive is best, and >>> the delay allows other manufactures to create "dumb" drive options (saw one >>> at World of Commodore, forgot the name). >> How did these dumb drives interface with the computer at a software >> level? I'd think a DOS would need to be loaded somehow. >> > The one I saw at the WoC was a 8" drive connected to a PSU and the cable > attached to a small PCB that replaced the editor ROM in the PET. THe > PCB mapped a controller into the address space and the editor ROM was > patched to support a DOS. > > It was an interesting setup. Mike N (of 6502.org) had the unit. Steve > Gray on here was there too and could provide more details. > > Jim ------------------- I was the third guy at Mike's WoC booth trying to help figure out why it wasn't working initially; took a while for one of us to notice that the PET we were using was a different revision than the one Mike used at home and it had to be connected slightly differently. I also made a cable to try using a 5.25HD drive instead of the 8" but we (I) didn't have enough time to get that working completely. The device in question is a CGRS Microtech PEDisk II and just like most systems it has a boot ROM which provides some low level functions including the loading of a DOS from disk, which in turn is accessed with a set of 'wedge' commands. When I asked here recently about cloning a PCB this is the one I had in mind, but we'll need a schematic anyway sooner or later; Mike's already done a heck of a job reverse-engineering the software. More info here: http://mikenaberezny.com/hardware/pet-cbm/cgrs-microtech-pedisk-ii/ m From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 23:57:10 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 00:57:10 -0500 Subject: C64 system cost? References: <89417212-D21E-4291-BF09-ED11CDC8D93C@mail.com> <2AF914C50AB1415CA1A43DEF011775A9@310e2> <56A07692.2070007@jbrain.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 1:11 AM Subject: Re: C64 system cost? > On 1/20/2016 1:37 PM, Pete Rittwage wrote: >> That is an extremely good price... However, the site is very old and he >> takes a very long time to reply, typically. (Months and months, if ever!) > Is that recently? I know Joe's daddied and that interrupted things, but > I thought he has been responsive lately. > > I'd still contact him. Mike S is on here, and I'm on the toronto > mailing list, where lots of people close to Joe can get to him if you > don't get a response. > I spoke to Joe and he is indeed still very much in business; if you're looking for something VIC/C64/C128 related you might want to contact him and inquire, and let us know if you have any problems reaching him. BTW, one of the reasons for the simplicity of his web page is so that a C64 can access it. m From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 02:31:24 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 00:31:24 -0800 Subject: ESR meter recommendations. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004401d15681$9fa14010$dee3c030$@gmail.com> I use a BK Precision 879B and can only say good things about it, saved me numerous times (and also exonerated components I thought were faulty). http://www.bkprecision.com/products/component-testers/879B-40000-count-dual-display-handheld-lcr-meter-with-esr.html Looks like the Der EE is an even better deal for a very similar unit that even goes up to 100 kHz though. Marc >I really should get one. I have been thinking I need to get one every time I get my head into anther PSU >and then everything is sorted out and the PSU seems to work fine and I forget about it. I have been >looking at the DerEE DE-5000 which looks nice and has got good reviews as far as I can tell. >What meter do you have and recommend? >/Mattis From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 24 03:34:33 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 09:34:33 -0000 Subject: VAXELN Datagram Service In-Reply-To: <00ef01d15614$e7991900$b6cb4b00$@ntlworld.com> References: <00ef01d15614$e7991900$b6cb4b00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <013501d1568a$6ea3a8f0$4beafad0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 23 January 2016 19:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: VAXELN Datagram Service > > I am doing a bit of VAXELN programming and I am trying to get the Datagram > Service to only read packets of a certain EtherType, but unless I use > promiscuous mode, nothing is read. Here is the relevant code: > > > > form.format = ELN$K_NI_PTT; > > form.mux.ptt = 0x0360; > > mode = 0; > > pad = 0; > > eln$ni_connect(&status, &portalId, config.clist.list[i].control_port, > &dispatchPort, &form, NULL, &mode, NULL, NULL, NULL, NULL, NULL, &pad); > > > > Anyone know why this might not return any packets at all when I wait on the > port? > My mind cleared overnight, and I realised what the problem is. To read the packets I am interested in (DECnet), I need to tell the adapter the special DECnet addresses and configure those as multicast addresses. Problem solved. Regards Rob From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Jan 24 03:46:53 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 10:46:53 +0100 Subject: opening the drive door/lid of an RM03 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Mike Ross Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2016 1:46 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: opening the drive door/lid of an RM03 ? Strange. Here's one of mine. No lid issues! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcc5fJOgp7A Mike -------- I remember seeing that RM03 movie! That one is in really bad shape with a lot of rust and dirt. But the heads seems to look quite clean, so maybe not all is lost. This time I of course watched closely the lamps on the "operator panel". On my drive I can toggle the PROTECT lamp with the push button, but READY does not come on. Logically, pressing START has no effect. The good thing is that the FAULT lamps stays off, but then again, that could be just a defective bulb :-/ I guess I have to pull the maintenance doc and start checking interlock signals. I could also start cleaning RM03 #2 ... Thanks, - Henk From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 17:56:08 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:56:08 -0500 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56A41318.8010506@gmail.com> On 01/23/2016 07:48 PM, Mike Boyle wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 7:28 PM, Eric Christopherson > > wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, Jim Brain wrote: > > On 1/23/2016 2:18 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > >First off, my bad - I thought the OP was wanting to change the > device ID > > >(which is not the drive number, btw**) on a genuine 1541. I'd > have no idea > > >how it's done with one of the SD-based drive emulators. > > Google is still a friend: > > > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=sd2iec+change+device+numbers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 > > > > There are no external switches on some of these drives. > > > > But, the BASIC commands used to switch device numbers on the > 1541 also work > > on these units, and putting an extra char at the end of the > command will > > make the changes permanent, as I recall. > > > > Jim > > Jim, don't you sell a device that's useful for temporarily > switching off > specific drives so the device numbers can be changed more easily? > > -- > Eric Christopherson > > > > > -- So I guess the question now is should I change the sd drive or the original floppy? Thank you all for all the wonderful help god bless you all! > * > Mike's ? > Honda ATC 3wheeler > ? Shop? > for LIFE!!!* > * > Have a blessed day!* From pete at petelancashire.com Sat Jan 23 22:36:56 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 20:36:56 -0800 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> Message-ID: Some pictures of the inside of 382 #1 http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=5159 Sadly no HD to boot I will try to bring home the other two. -pete On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > As already mentioned, you should start off looking at > http://www.hpmuseum.net for documentation and software for the HP > 9000/382 > > I obtained an .ISO image of the HP-UX 9.0 installation CD-ROM there > along with HP BASIC 6.2 images, both stand alone BASIC and BASIC/UX. > There are currently no direct download links for those images. Jon > Johnston there has been great about responding to requests for images > if you send him an email. > > The SCSI hard drive in my 9000/382 was dead when I received it. It was > fairly straight forward to install HP-UX 9.0 from scratch on a > replacement hard drive from a SCSI CD-ROM. I forget how much memory > mine had when I received. I found some additional memory to install > and that helped with performance running HP-UX 9.0. I don't think I > ever got around to trying to use HP BASIC to control any GPIB > interface test equipment yet. > > From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 04:49:50 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 05:49:50 -0500 Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <56A4AC4E.9040905@gmail.com> On 01/23/2016 05:07 PM, william degnan wrote: > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > >> On 1/23/2016 2:18 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> >>> First off, my bad - I thought the OP was wanting to change the device ID >>> (which is not the drive number, btw**) on a genuine 1541. I'd have no idea >>> how it's done with one of the SD-based drive emulators. >>> >> Google is still a friend: >> >> >> https://www.google.com/search?q=sd2iec+change+device+numbers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 >> >> There are no external switches on some of these drives. >> >> But, the BASIC commands used to switch device numbers on the 1541 also >> work on these units, and putting an extra char at the end of the command >> will make the changes permanent, as I recall. >> >> Jim >> > Right. I am saying don't make a permanent hardware change to a 1541 that > does not have the switches unless you really want it to be permanent > because there is a software method of assigning drives that is good enough > most of the time. BUT if you must make it permanent and you don't have the > external switches, consider adding some form of external switch so you > don't ever have to open the case again to put it back to the default. Less > likely to burn traces, etc if you can avoid working on the same circuit > more than once. > > b So I hooked it up like *will *said ans changed the original olsskool floppy to 9 but when I put a disk in there and it calls for a save dist it tryes to grab from ,8 also I Have no clue on how to change disks on the SD floppy when it calls for a save disk like I use Fleet System 2+ doe my word processing and database needs and If I am just trying yo use the SD drive I can not change disks and all you get is 1 peice of paper for instructions and it pretty much says this... /These are my recommendations and not the ONLY way of using an SD2IEC. Id you are already a Commodore disk drive user, you'll get the hang of it in decondsif you have never used a reak disk drive, follow the instructions here, and you'll soon be useing your Commodore like a grown up! / *Breif **explanation of how to prepare an SD card, install file Browser and create a simple directory structure.* Format an SD card as fat16 or fat 32. In most circumstances a QUICK FORMAT will do. if you are having trouble useing your SD card with youir SD2IEC, use https://www.sdcard.org/download/formatter_4/ Download the latest version of file browser http://www.vic20.it/cbmfilebrowser/ and extract all of the content of "PROGRAMS" to the root of the of you blank SD card. Delete the txt file and trmove the extensions from the FB files.. eg.. fb. FB16. ect.. /to keep file structure neat, create directories for your files. somthing like thos... / /Volume in H is SD2MASTER Volume serial number is 1F81-c3D5 Directory of H:/ 23/4/2013 13:16 C64 ///23/4/2013 13:26/ C16 //23/4/2013 13:16 VIC20 ///23/4/2013 13:16 18:56 792 fb ///23/4/2013 13:16 07:45 2,219 fb16 //23/4/2013 13:16 18:24 1,330 fb20 ///23/4/2013 13:16 18:24 2,079 fb20-3k ///23/4/2013 13:16 18:24 2,119 fb20-8k ///23/4/2013 13:16 18:24/ 3,023 fb20-mc //23/4/2013 13:16 18:24 2084 fb64 //23/4/2013 13:16 18:24 2,258 fb64dtv //23/4/2013 13:16 18:24 2,131 fb1218 //23/4/2013 13:16 18:24 279 thefuturewas8bit.txt 9 file(s) 18,134 bytes 4 Ddirs 168,607,744 bytes free I have done everything the instroctions have said it will load up but I am still havinf 2 problems 1, I have no Idea how to use disk swap on the sd caed and my ,9 floppy when I am in basid I can typr LOAD "*",9,1 AND IT WILL WORK BUT AS SOON AS IT ASKS YOU TO FLIP THE DISK IT TRYS TO READ GROM ,8??? AND THAT IS WHERE MY SD CARD ID. GRRRRRRRRRR / From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 24 06:18:37 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 13:18:37 +0100 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Pete Lancashire > Verzonden: zondag 24 januari 2016 5:37 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: HP 9000/382 Questions > > Some pictures of the inside of 382 #1 > > http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=5159 > > Sadly no HD to boot > > I will try to bring home the other two. > > -pete > Pete, The VGA is IIRC SOG (Sync On Green) not all monitors support this. If you have a HP-IB/GP-IB interface for a PC you can use Ansgars HPDrive to boot. It's found at www.hp9845.net . Also the drives used in the 9000/38X series are single ended scsi of external Fast HP-IB. If you download the HP Basic 51. or 6.2 from the HP Computer Museum website you can boot of a the internal floppy drive and at least you know if the basics work. http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=27 Even without a keyboard this should boot and come to the start screen. -Rik From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Sun Jan 24 09:52:21 2016 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 07:52:21 -0800 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> On Jan 24, 2016, at 4:18 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > The VGA is IIRC SOG (Sync On Green) not all monitors support this. > If you have a HP-IB/GP-IB interface for a PC you can use Ansgars HPDrive to boot. > It's found at www.hp9845.net . I have an HP 9000/360 and I don't have an HP-HIL keyboard or sync on green monitor either. I was able to get a console through the built-in RS-232 port and made it boot NetBSD over ethernet using a Linux box as a server. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 04:57:23 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 05:57:23 -0500 Subject: SO BEFORE i DO ANYTHING!!!!! Message-ID: <56A4AE13.5060201@gmail.com> Should I just plug in my floppy drive without the sd card and change it to ,9 than plug in the sd card witch is set at 8 ? From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 24 10:05:12 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 08:05:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: SD Card disk drive for C-64? In-Reply-To: <20160124025822.GI89321@gmail.com> References: <56A2519E.6050509@gmail.com> <56A3ECA2.3060004@jbrain.com> <20160124002824.GG89321@gmail.com> <56A41BD1.7090305@jbrain.com> <56A42A02.9090303@jbrain.com> <20160124025822.GI89321@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 2016, Eric Christopherson wrote: > How did these dumb drives interface with the computer at a software > level? I'd think a DOS would need to be loaded somehow. > The drives had their DOS in ROM. Keep in mind that the 1541, 1571, etc. essentially were computers unto themselves with a CPU (6502), ROM and RAM. The host computer doesn't need to concern itself with what track & sector the drive is reading from - it just tells the drive "send me " and the drive is smart enough to do just that. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 10:37:35 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 11:37:35 -0500 Subject: SO BEFORE i DO ANYTHING!!!!! In-Reply-To: <56A4AE13.5060201@gmail.com> References: <56A4AE13.5060201@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 5:57 AM, Mike wrote: > Should I just plug in my floppy drive without the sd card and change it > to ,9 than plug in the sd card witch is set at 8 ? > Yes. If you even need the 1541 at all. From saburwulf at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 11:24:33 2016 From: saburwulf at gmail.com (Joshua Stetson) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 09:24:33 -0800 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: <682B6EAD-3939-440E-9EBD-E40EE60877C0@shiresoft.com> References: <682B6EAD-3939-440E-9EBD-E40EE60877C0@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > > I have had no end of problems with the *many* BC11A cables that I have (ie > they?re bad cables). It?s the flex ribbon cable itself that?s been the issue. > I may have a BC11 cable as another local guy, Josh Dersch may have one. Of course as you state, it could be bad given the flakiness of the cable but I'll give it a try in the meantime. > To that end, I?ve made new ?paddle? board that take 2 60pin ribbon > cables. I expect > to have the first round of boards back from the fab house in a couple of > weeks. I?ll > let folks know how they turn out (ie do they actually work!). > > The downside is that they were somewhat expensive (I ordered 10 of each > just because that made sense price > wise for a prototype run). > If your boards and cables turn out to be viable replacements, I'll definitely grab one given that it's starting to sound like I should expect the BC11 to break at any moment. :) Josh Stetson From saburwulf at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 11:31:57 2016 From: saburwulf at gmail.com (Joshua Stetson) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 09:31:57 -0800 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Always happy to hear of another happy user! Even better to hear of another working 8/E. I've actually got a second 8/e chassis and enough boards to get a basic 12 kiloword core system up and running. I just need to replace a boxer fan (bearings went on one of them and it grinds), and then debug the CPU. Ideally, I'd rather have an M than a second E though; especially since I'd probably be running it with Vincent's SRAM board instead of the core. It would make for the perfect portable system to take around. Hope you get your RK05 going. I am still waiting for a good > deal on an RK05; I'll probably have a custom SD card board made for the > Omnibus before that happens, though... :) I hope so too! Looking at the drives themselves, I'm pretty confident as they both look very well maintained. My RK05E card set passes the diskless diagnostics so as soon as I get the cabling I can move onto the next steps of bringing them back to life. I'm interested in your SD card board however. This is something that I'd totally go in on. Would be nice to have a board that just looks like an RK05 so that no OS/8 patching would be required, especially if it supported single cycle data break! Josh From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Jan 24 13:12:44 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 11:12:44 -0800 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: If I read the doc's correctly I only have the medium resolution system board, pity the graphics where not a daughter board. No problem with building a sync separator. My goal list to use the thing as a GPIB controller. Have quite a few HP diagnostics that are on tape (and will need to get a tape drive) that make extensive use of HP Basic. Final use is as a bench controller for the same instruments -pete On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 7:52 AM, Chris Osborn wrote: > > On Jan 24, 2016, at 4:18 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > The VGA is IIRC SOG (Sync On Green) not all monitors support this. > > If you have a HP-IB/GP-IB interface for a PC you can use Ansgars HPDrive > to boot. > > It's found at www.hp9845.net . > > I have an HP 9000/360 and I don't have an HP-HIL keyboard or sync on green > monitor either. I was able to get a console through the built-in RS-232 > port and made it boot NetBSD over ethernet using a Linux box as a server. > > -- > Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx > Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com > > > From u.tagge at gmx.de Sun Jan 24 13:13:38 2016 From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 20:13:38 +0100 Subject: Introduction and RK05J Drive cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56A52262.9060401@gmx.de> Hi All, Short introduction of myself: 37 Years old, living in Germany, since some time I collect all available and affordable stuff related to PDP11 and try to get a running system including some Drives. In relation to the emergency head locking: I have done basic overhaul on my RK07, and have also refreshed the NiCd Battery. Afterwards I was also thinking about to test this, as I would like to know if it is working. So maybe it helps, as it looks like it is basically near the same on the RK05 side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HU2NhozueI Many Greetings Ulrich From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 24 14:59:38 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 21:59:38 +0100 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: <002e01d156ea$25aebe40$710c3ac0$@xs4all.nl> > If I read the doc's correctly I only have the medium resolution system board, pity > the graphics where not a daughter board. > > No problem with building a sync separator. > > My goal list to use the thing as a GPIB controller. Have quite a few HP > diagnostics that are on tape (and will need to get a tape drive) that make > extensive use of HP Basic. > > Final use is as a bench controller for the same instruments > > -pete > What kind of tapes do you have? DC100A (HP 98200A) are in most cases not compatible with the 9000/200-300 series because they contain HP 9825A?B programs or 9835/45 programs. The DC300 like quick tapes like the HP 88140SC / 150 Ft. or HP 88140LC / 600 Ft. 16 track tapes uses the HP 9144A or compatible drives. For HP-UX systems HP used DAT tapes in the 90'th but I'm not sure if they also used them for instrument verification and test programs. The programs I have are all on disc. Before you put your old quick tapes in a drive you need to check if the drive belt is in good condition, if the tension is to low it will ruin the tape. Drive belts can be retentioned by putting them in hot water >70C the belt will shrink then and go back to the right tension. If you use the search function on the site you can find a mail from Christian Corti describing the procedure. -Rik From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sun Jan 24 15:42:59 2016 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 21:42:59 +0000 Subject: HP 700lx Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE5340C@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi! Maybe a long shot, but does anyone on here have an HP OmniGo 700LX? And further, might anyone be willing to sell one? Thanks! -Ben From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Jan 24 15:56:46 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 16:56:46 -0500 Subject: HP 700lx Message-ID: and after ben gets his we would buy one for SMECC also... see _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) I have an omni whatever that looks like the computer part of this but never saw it with a phone on top! here is a video I found of this thing on the net... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1UtCJ84Ris weird... I must have been asleep when this came out... If I had seen it I would have lusted after it! Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) In a message dated 1/24/2016 2:43:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu writes: Hi! Maybe a long shot, but does anyone on here have an HP OmniGo 700LX? And further, might anyone be willing to sell one? Thanks! -Ben From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jan 24 19:09:56 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 20:09:56 -0500 Subject: V05.06 RT-11 DOC Set - Pickup Required in Los Angeles to Help Jay West Message-ID: <56A575E4.20708@compsys.to> V05.06 RT-11 DOC Set - Pickup Required in Los Angeles to Help Jay West An old RT-11 fellow tried to sell his V05..06 RT-11 DOC set on eBay, but no one bid. Jay West has expressed a desire to have the hard copy set of manuals. Is there anyone in the Los Angeles area who would be willing to pickup the manuals (there are 14 in all) and either keep them until there is a pickup of else ship them? I hope we can help out Jay for all the effort over the many years!!!!!!!!!! Jerome Fine From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 25 00:29:40 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 22:29:40 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? Message-ID: To my surprise, I found something just barely old enough to interest me on the e-waste pile at work: An IBM PS/2 85 from around 1993 or so. The hard drive is long gone and it didn't include a keyboard, but it did come with a model 8516 touch screen display and original mouse. I already had a nice Model M to plug into it, plus some scsi2sd adapters sitting around waiting for projects like this one. I'm new to the PS/2 line, but after some poking around I found images of the reference and diagnostic disks necessary to set this machine up. I also found the ADF file needed for the Cabletron ethernet card in it. The machine has 12M of parity RAM, with one SIMM slot pair still open. It has a 2.88M 3.5" floppy and a 1.2M 5.25" floppy. The 5.25" floppy is a motor-eject style which I haven't encountered before. This model has a 486SX 33MHz CPU, and the math coprocessor socket is empty. Aside from a bunch of dust that I cleaned out, it's in pretty nice cosmetic shape. This particular model was intended for duty as a server. I've been posting pictures of the machine on Twitter over the last few days, starting on 1/21/2016: https://twitter.com/nf6x/media I replaced the CMOS battery (conveniently, a CR2032 coin cell, available at the local supermarket), reconfigured the CMOS settings, set up a scsi2sd as four emulated 512M SCSI hard drives, milled a pair of generic PC hard drive mounting rails to length for use in a PS/2, and installed MS-DOS 6.22 on it. OS/2 2.0 would probably be more appropriate for this machine, but I don't have it. I see original OS/2 2.0 boxes in the shrink wrap on eBay, but eBay and I are seeing other people at this time. Well, I seem to have it fully working aside from not having suitable software installed to test out the touch screen and networking card. The monitor sometimes makes a bit of high-pitch whine which by some miracle I can still hear. Younger folks might find it objectionable. I wonder if it would be effective as a child repellant? :) Thankfully, it doesn't seem to set my dogs to howling. And now that it is cleaned up and working, I have no clue about what to do with it! I just didn't want to see it go to the landfill or end up as toxic dust in some poor guy's lungs in India, so I got permission and then carted it home. I am not normally interested in PC-family machines, but actual IBM ones interest me a bit. And the countless ways IBM found to make the PS/2 line incompatible with regular PC lines give me things to bitch about, and that in turn gives my life purpose. :) So, would any of y'all like to help me brainstorm about interesting applications for this vintage heap, or maybe point me towards non-eBay sources of software that it would like to run? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 25 00:34:35 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 22:34:35 -0800 Subject: V05.06 RT-11 DOC Set - Pickup Required in Los Angeles to Help Jay West In-Reply-To: <56A575E4.20708@compsys.to> References: <56A575E4.20708@compsys.to> Message-ID: > On Jan 24, 2016, at 17:09, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > An old RT-11 fellow tried to sell his V05..06 RT-11 DOC set on eBay, but > no one bid. Jay West has expressed a desire to have the hard copy set of > manuals. Is there anyone in the Los Angeles area who would be willing to > pickup the manuals (there are 14 in all) and either keep them until there is > a pickup of else ship them? Do you know where in the LA area it is? If it's out in the Inland Empire (Corona, Riverside, Ontario, etc.), then maybe I could help. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 01:17:27 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 23:17:27 -0800 Subject: V05.06 RT-11 DOC Set - Pickup Required in Los Angeles to Help Jay West In-Reply-To: References: <56A575E4.20708@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 10:34 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > Do you know where in the LA area it is? If it's out in the Inland Empire (Corona, Riverside, Ontario, etc.), then maybe I could help. > My guess is Pasadena, CA (91107) http://www.ebay.com/itm/141870596625 From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 25 01:18:58 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 23:18:58 -0800 Subject: V05.06 RT-11 DOC Set - Pickup Required in Los Angeles to Help Jay West In-Reply-To: References: <56A575E4.20708@compsys.to> Message-ID: <8685A644-C30F-48FD-B230-DE7A064EE926@nf6x.net> > On Jan 24, 2016, at 23:17, Glen Slick wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 10:34 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> >> Do you know where in the LA area it is? If it's out in the Inland Empire (Corona, Riverside, Ontario, etc.), then maybe I could help. >> > > My guess is Pasadena, CA (91107) That would be out of the way for me, but I might be able to pick them up on a weekend if nobody is closer. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Jan 24 13:16:42 2016 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 20:16:42 +0100 Subject: Terminal Emulation for Windows - supporting Kermit File Transfer Message-ID: <20160124201642.Horde.FGTvjYTi3cbH4KAbZWDPXGp@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi, I'm using extensivly C-Kermit on my FreeBSD host to connect to various serial-line-only Systems. They also have a kermit executable so I'm using kermit -s to send data from those systems to my FreeBSD system and also getting files from my FreeBSD host to the other systems is working fine. I'm now looking for a way to get this "kermit file transfer" functionality from Windows but had no luck so far. Is there free-for-use Kermit alternative arround to be used for Windows or an other Terminal Emulation which supportes Kermit File Transfers "out of the box"? Yes - I know Kermit 95, but this is not free. Regards, Oliver From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 24 14:39:24 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 12:39:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC fonts... Message-ID: This site has a lot of interesting info on a number of fonts used in PCs and compatibles. It looks like there was quite a bit of research involved. http://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Jan 24 15:23:33 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 13:23:33 -0800 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: <002e01d156ea$25aebe40$710c3ac0$@xs4all.nl> References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> <002e01d156ea$25aebe40$710c3ac0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: A picture of an example tape http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=5246 -pete On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > > If I read the doc's correctly I only have the medium resolution system > board, pity > > the graphics where not a daughter board. > > > > No problem with building a sync separator. > > > > My goal list to use the thing as a GPIB controller. Have quite a few HP > > diagnostics that are on tape (and will need to get a tape drive) that > make > > extensive use of HP Basic. > > > > Final use is as a bench controller for the same instruments > > > > -pete > > > > What kind of tapes do you have? > DC100A (HP 98200A) are in most cases not compatible with the 9000/200-300 > series because they contain HP 9825A?B programs or 9835/45 programs. > The DC300 like quick tapes like the HP 88140SC / 150 Ft. or HP 88140LC / > 600 Ft. 16 track tapes uses the HP 9144A or compatible drives. > For HP-UX systems HP used DAT tapes in the 90'th but I'm not sure if they > also used them for instrument verification and test programs. > The programs I have are all on disc. > Before you put your old quick tapes in a drive you need to check if the > drive belt is in good condition, if the tension is to low it will ruin the > tape. > Drive belts can be retentioned by putting them in hot water >70C the belt > will shrink then and go back to the right tension. > If you use the search function on the site you can find a mail from > Christian Corti describing the procedure. > > -Rik > > > > From rickb at bensene.com Sun Jan 24 20:42:09 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 18:42:09 -0800 Subject: Terminal Emulation for Windows - supporting Kermit File Transfer References: <20160124201642.Horde.FGTvjYTi3cbH4KAbZWDPXGp@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029FA6@mail.bensene.com> Oliver Lehman wrote: > > Is there free-for-use Kermit alternative arround to be used for Windows or > an other Terminal Emulation which supportes Kermit File Transfers "out of > the box"? > I have found TeraTerm to be a good terminal program, and it supports Kermit, XModem and other serial-based file transfer protocols. It is free. Search it, and you'll find a safe site to download it from. Best, -Rick --- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 01:54:31 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 23:54:31 -0800 Subject: Free (for pickup): RX02 external enclosure (Seattle, WA) Message-ID: <56A5D4B7.4070508@gmail.com> I just rack-mounted my RX02 and I have no need for the "table-top" enclosure it came in any longer (as nice as it is). It's in good shape, but it's missing one rubber foot. Free to a good home. I'm near Seattle, WA. - Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 25 01:54:34 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 23:54:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC 8201a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone still messing with the Kyocera machines? (Radio Shack Model 100, NEC PC-8201A, and a few others were part of the same series made by Kyocera (Kyoto Ceramics)) Somebody just returned one that I loaned out about 30 years ago. Also the N82 BASIC manual, which gives memory maps, etc. for it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 02:02:21 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 00:02:21 -0800 Subject: ISO: Outer rails for RK05 Message-ID: <56A5D68D.4090503@gmail.com> Anyone happen to have a spare set of outer rackmount rails for an RK05? I have the inner rails that attach to the drive, and I'm trying to track down the outer parts that attach to the rack, with the inner slide. Getting very close to having a semi-respectable PDP-8/m system put together, just need to get the hardware mounted. (And track down the impossible RK05 cabling. And debug the controller. And probably a dozen other things...) Thanks, Josh From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Jan 25 03:48:51 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 10:48:51 +0100 Subject: Free (for pickup): RX02 external enclosure (Seattle, WA) In-Reply-To: <56A5D4B7.4070508@gmail.com> References: <56A5D4B7.4070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160125094851.GA25702@Update.UU.SE> Hi I would love one with my "table-top" PDP-8/E. I suspect shipping over the pond will kill it though. Do you have measurements of dimensions and weight? What does it look like, how does one mount the RX02 in the enclosure? Do you have any pictures? Kind Regards, Pontus. On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 11:54:31PM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote: > I just rack-mounted my RX02 and I have no need for the "table-top" enclosure > it came in any longer (as nice as it is). It's in good shape, but it's > missing one rubber foot. > > Free to a good home. I'm near Seattle, WA. > > - Josh > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Jan 25 04:21:50 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 10:21:50 +0000 (WET) Subject: Terminal Emulation for Windows - supporting Kermit File Transfer Message-ID: <01PVW8JS356Q00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie> > I'm using extensivly C-Kermit on my FreeBSD host to connect to > various serial-line-only Systems. They also have a kermit executable > so I'm using kermit -s to send data from those systems to my FreeBSD > system and also getting files from my FreeBSD host to the other > systems is working fine. > > I'm now looking for a way to get this "kermit file transfer" > functionality from Windows but had no luck so far. > > Is there free-for-use Kermit alternative arround to be used for > Windows or an other Terminal Emulation which supportes Kermit > File Transfers "out of the box"? > > Yes - I know Kermit 95, but this is not free. > It appears that (most of) the source code for Kermit 95 has been released now but there is more work to done on it to make this useful. http://www.kermitproject.org/k95sourcecode.html Regards, Peter Coghlan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 25 07:28:53 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 13:28:53 +0000 Subject: NeXTstation booting, NetInfo, and NTP Message-ID: <56A62315.3060606@dunnington.plus.com> Yesterday I dug out my NexTstation (68040 25MHz slab with 32MB of 100ns SIMMs) which has OpenStep 4.2 for Mach installed. The lithium battery was flat and it wouldn't boot so I've ordered a replacement and temporarily kludged a pair of alkaline AAs to get it going. So far, so good, though it thinks today is September 6 2001 :-) Then I used SimpleNetworkStarter, set to "Use the network, but don't share administrative data". I've also edited /etc/hostconfig and reslv.conf to sensible values (eg TIME=-NO-) so it now boots quite quickly. Is there a way to disable NetInfo completely, and if so will things like DNS lookups still work? Is there an easy way to make it get its time/date settings from my NTP server? During startup it does claim to start netinfo, lookupd, ntpd (see below), then inetd, I have an SGI running IRIX which is my DHCP, DNS, and NTP server, and I plan to set up the NexT to use DHCP to get its IP address etc (it's static ATM). -- Pete From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 09:18:47 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 13:18:47 -0200 Subject: NEC 8201a References: Message-ID: <2D17F4EE32AD44A996B78901B9EBEB62@deskjara> Me. I have a pair of model 100s. Unfortunately both with a broken LCD :( --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 5:54 AM Subject: NEC 8201a > Anyone still messing with the Kyocera machines? > (Radio Shack Model 100, NEC PC-8201A, and a few others were part of the > same series made by Kyocera (Kyoto Ceramics)) > > Somebody just returned one that I loaned out about 30 years ago. > Also the N82 BASIC manual, which gives memory maps, etc. for it. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 09:24:27 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 09:24:27 -0600 Subject: NEC 8201a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Anyone still messing with the Kyocera machines? > (Radio Shack Model 100, NEC PC-8201A, and a few others were part of the > same series made by Kyocera (Kyoto Ceramics)) > > > I've been tinkering with a Tandy 102 lately. Recently picked up a TPDD2 drive with no cable. I have to construct one so I can use it, and then I don't have the Utility disk, so I'm not sure how useful it will be. The one I got needed a new battery backup battery, and I had to repair a trace. The system would work, but the memory wouldn't retain contents. The AA batteries leaked on the power supply trace and etched it away in a small section, enough to sever the NiCad connection to the RAM, but leave the AA to power the RAM once turned on. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 25 09:29:14 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 16:29:14 +0100 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> <002e01d156ea$25aebe40$710c3ac0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <007e01d15785$26731c40$735954c0$@xs4all.nl> > A picture of an example tape > > http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=5246 > > -pete > Pete, Those are DC100A tapes used in the HP 98X5 series computers. The programs are not compatible with the 9000/300 series. I couldn't see the tape number on the label but I think it's a 9825A/B tape written in HPL. Instrument software on this kind of tapes I've seen was written for the 9825. You'll need a HP 9825 to read this tapes and copy them to a disk (8" HP 9895A). The tapes are very fragile, 90% the belts are stuck to the tape. And you need to warm the tape to about 50-60C to get the belt from the tape without peeling of the magnetic layer. After that the belt needs to be reconditioned (see my earlier mail) and the tape may be needed to be baked (several hours in an oven at 55-60C). After that you have only a few (1-6) passes to read the tape, before it becomes badly readable. Replacing and removing the drive belt will need some practicing (I've done it). When the programs are copied to disk it's possible to read them on a HP 9000/200 series computer with HPL for the 200 series. http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=169 Which will not run on the 9000/382 or other processors higher/later than the 68010. -Rik From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 25 09:55:58 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 07:55:58 -0800 Subject: V05.06 RT-11 DOC Set - Pickup Required in Los Angeles to Help Jay West In-Reply-To: <8685A644-C30F-48FD-B230-DE7A064EE926@nf6x.net> References: <56A575E4.20708@compsys.to> <8685A644-C30F-48FD-B230-DE7A064EE926@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <7FB9CFF7-4DAA-4D29-90DD-8AEE970D7C6D@nf6x.net> Per off-list email, it looks like the manuals are near the Pasadena/Glendale border, which is over 2 hours from me... and there's a dumpster deadline on Thursday, so I don't think I can help with this one. :( -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 10:29:47 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 10:29:47 -0600 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you're interested in a speed-up, I'm fairly sure a 486DX/2-66 should drop-in for the current 33mhz CPU, without any additional changes. Doubles your core speed and adds the math co-processor in one go. On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 12:29 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > To my surprise, I found something just barely old enough to interest me on > the e-waste pile at work: An IBM PS/2 85 from around 1993 or so. The hard > drive is long gone and it didn't include a keyboard, but it did come with a > model 8516 touch screen display and original mouse. I already had a nice > Model M to plug into it, plus some scsi2sd adapters sitting around waiting > for projects like this one. > > I'm new to the PS/2 line, but after some poking around I found images of > the reference and diagnostic disks necessary to set this machine up. I also > found the ADF file needed for the Cabletron ethernet card in it. The > machine has 12M of parity RAM, with one SIMM slot pair still open. It has a > 2.88M 3.5" floppy and a 1.2M 5.25" floppy. The 5.25" floppy is a > motor-eject style which I haven't encountered before. This model has a > 486SX 33MHz CPU, and the math coprocessor socket is empty. Aside from a > bunch of dust that I cleaned out, it's in pretty nice cosmetic shape. This > particular model was intended for duty as a server. > > I've been posting pictures of the machine on Twitter over the last few > days, starting on 1/21/2016: > > https://twitter.com/nf6x/media > > I replaced the CMOS battery (conveniently, a CR2032 coin cell, available > at the local supermarket), reconfigured the CMOS settings, set up a scsi2sd > as four emulated 512M SCSI hard drives, milled a pair of generic PC hard > drive mounting rails to length for use in a PS/2, and installed MS-DOS 6.22 > on it. OS/2 2.0 would probably be more appropriate for this machine, but I > don't have it. I see original OS/2 2.0 boxes in the shrink wrap on eBay, > but eBay and I are seeing other people at this time. > > Well, I seem to have it fully working aside from not having suitable > software installed to test out the touch screen and networking card. The > monitor sometimes makes a bit of high-pitch whine which by some miracle I > can still hear. Younger folks might find it objectionable. I wonder if it > would be effective as a child repellant? :) Thankfully, it doesn't seem to > set my dogs to howling. > > And now that it is cleaned up and working, I have no clue about what to do > with it! I just didn't want to see it go to the landfill or end up as toxic > dust in some poor guy's lungs in India, so I got permission and then carted > it home. I am not normally interested in PC-family machines, but actual IBM > ones interest me a bit. And the countless ways IBM found to make the PS/2 > line incompatible with regular PC lines give me things to bitch about, and > that in turn gives my life purpose. :) > > So, would any of y'all like to help me brainstorm about interesting > applications for this vintage heap, or maybe point me towards non-eBay > sources of software that it would like to run? > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 10:35:10 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:35:10 -0500 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > > > > So, would any of y'all like to help me brainstorm about interesting > > applications for this vintage heap, or maybe point me towards non-eBay > > sources of software that it would like to run? > > > > -- > > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > > > > Sell it and make some money to buy something you really can use. From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 25 10:41:07 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 08:41:07 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> > On Jan 25, 2016, at 08:29, drlegendre . wrote: > > If you're interested in a speed-up, I'm fairly sure a 486DX/2-66 should > drop-in for the current 33mhz CPU, without any additional changes. Doubles > your core speed and adds the math co-processor in one go. Cool. I didn't know that it would drop in like that. I found images of OS/2 installation disks on a possibly dodgy "abandonware" site. 2.0 installation crashed on the second disk. 2.1 made it all the way through the 20th disk, then hung at "Updating the system configuration" (but with mouse pointer still movable) and yielded a system that doesn't boot past the loading screen. The system passes its diagnostic tests, but maybe the scsi2sd is incompatible in some way, or maybe a different distribution is needed for this machine? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 10:44:46 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:44:46 -0500 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Ugh. Find Warp (OS/2 v3 ) if you plan on playing with OS/2. It had more drivers included. If you find IBM Visualage software, you'll get C/C++ and with enough hunting - Smalltalk. I always wanted to play with that, but couldn't justify the $$$$ needed. Todd Killingsworth On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > On Jan 25, 2016, at 08:29, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > If you're interested in a speed-up, I'm fairly sure a 486DX/2-66 should > > drop-in for the current 33mhz CPU, without any additional changes. > Doubles > > your core speed and adds the math co-processor in one go. > > Cool. I didn't know that it would drop in like that. > > I found images of OS/2 installation disks on a possibly dodgy > "abandonware" site. 2.0 installation crashed on the second disk. 2.1 made > it all the way through the 20th disk, then hung at "Updating the system > configuration" (but with mouse pointer still movable) and yielded a system > that doesn't boot past the loading screen. The system passes its diagnostic > tests, but maybe the scsi2sd is incompatible in some way, or maybe a > different distribution is needed for this machine? > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Jan 25 10:50:00 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:50:00 -0500 Subject: NEC 8201a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56A65238.5000806@snarc.net> > (Radio Shack Model 100, NEC PC-8201A, and a few others were part of the > same series made by Kyocera (Kyoto Ceramics)) The others were the Olivetti M-10 and Kyocera's own Kyotronic KC-85. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 10:59:19 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:59:19 -0500 Subject: NEC 8201a In-Reply-To: <56A65238.5000806@snarc.net> References: <56A65238.5000806@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > (Radio Shack Model 100, NEC PC-8201A, and a few others were part of the >> same series made by Kyocera (Kyoto Ceramics)) >> > > The others were the Olivetti M-10 and Kyocera's own Kyotronic KC-85. > I have this photo http://www.vintagecomputer.net/kyotronic/Kyotronic_NEC_Tandy.JPG -- Bill From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 25 11:00:28 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 09:00:28 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 25, 2016, at 08:44, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > > Ugh. Find Warp (OS/2 v3 ) if you plan on playing with OS/2. It had more > drivers included. I think I'll give it a try. I had wanted to run whatever OS version would have most likely shipped with this system originally, but maybe this machine required a special version of 2.0/2.1 that differs from the shelf versions that got archived online? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 11:11:31 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:11:31 -0500 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> Message-ID: According to the first Google hit, Warp should be really close in time with your PS/2: ( From http://www.os2museum.com/wp/os2-history/os2-timeline/ ) *OS/2 Warp*?October 1994?Codename Warp - Internal revision 8.162 (94/09/19) - Performance tuned, lower resource requirements - Compatible with Windows 3.11 - BonusPak (with Internet Access Kit) included - Improved hardware support - Updated WPS This roughly matches up with my memory. I haven't worked OS/2 in a long while! On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > On Jan 25, 2016, at 08:44, Todd Killingsworth < > killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Ugh. Find Warp (OS/2 v3 ) if you plan on playing with OS/2. It had more > > drivers included. > > I think I'll give it a try. I had wanted to run whatever OS version would > have most likely shipped with this system originally, but maybe this > machine required a special version of 2.0/2.1 that differs from the shelf > versions that got archived online? > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 25 11:21:48 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 09:21:48 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> On 01/25/2016 09:11 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > According to the first Google hit, Warp should be really close in > time with your PS/2: ( From > http://www.os2museum.com/wp/os2-history/os2-timeline/ ) > > *OS/2 Warp*?October 1994?Codename Warp IBM distributed free CDs with Warp on them about then, publicizing their "Developer Connection"--something akin to MSDN. The CD included (IIRC) a C compiler and a few tools as well. I still have my CD; if you want an ISO of it, I think I can manage. --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 25 11:45:46 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 09:45:46 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7497B9B1-2027-48EB-BEBD-18991F095ACA@nf6x.net> > On Jan 25, 2016, at 09:21, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > IBM distributed free CDs with Warp on them about then, publicizing their "Developer Connection"--something akin to MSDN. The CD included (IIRC) a C compiler and a few tools as well. I still have my CD; if you want an ISO of it, I think I can manage. This machine doesn't have a CD drive, and I don't think it ever did based on there being no missing bezel filler panels. But I think that the scsi2sd may be able to emulate a CD drive. I'm off to work now, but this evening I'll poke around to see what Warp images are out there. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 25 11:46:47 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 09:46:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <7497B9B1-2027-48EB-BEBD-18991F095ACA@nf6x.net> References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> <7497B9B1-2027-48EB-BEBD-18991F095ACA@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 2016, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > This machine doesn't have a CD drive, and I don't think it ever did > based on there being no missing bezel filler panels. But I think that > the scsi2sd may be able to emulate a CD drive. I'm off to work now, but > this evening I'll poke around to see what Warp images are out there. There's a few folks out there running internet-connected BBSes on OS/2. You might look into that. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mazzinia at tin.it Mon Jan 25 11:52:05 2016 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 18:52:05 +0100 Subject: R: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <00b101d15799$1b5a71a0$520f54e0$@tin.it> I think part or all the devcon ( developer connection ) is uploaded in the same place the sgi cds are https://archive.org/details/cdromsoftware?&sort=-publicdate&and[]=SGI just change the search. If not, and a specific devcon number is needed, I should have them all in storage. -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Chuck Guzis Inviato: luned? 25 gennaio 2016 18:22 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: What to Do with a PS/2? On 01/25/2016 09:11 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > According to the first Google hit, Warp should be really close in time > with your PS/2: ( From > http://www.os2museum.com/wp/os2-history/os2-timeline/ ) > > *OS/2 Warp*?October 1994?Codename Warp IBM distributed free CDs with Warp on them about then, publicizing their "Developer Connection"--something akin to MSDN. The CD included (IIRC) a C compiler and a few tools as well. I still have my CD; if you want an ISO of it, I think I can manage. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 25 12:04:44 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 10:04:44 -0800 Subject: R: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <00b101d15799$1b5a71a0$520f54e0$@tin.it> References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> <00b101d15799$1b5a71a0$520f54e0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <56A663BC.1090604@sydex.com> On 01/25/2016 09:52 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > I think part or all the devcon ( developer connection ) is uploaded > in the same place the sgi cds are > > https://archive.org/details/cdromsoftware?&sort=-publicdate&and[]=SGI > > just change the search. If not, and a specific devcon number is > needed, I should have them all in storage. That's good to know. I wondered if anyone kept those. However, my recollection of Warp is that you need two floppies available for the "kicker" loader. Given that PS/2 floppy drives seem to have an unfortunate propensity toward death, you might want to check those out first. It is possible, IIRC, at least on some of the models to substitute a commodity DSHD 3.5" drive with a few small modifications. --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 25 12:15:27 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 10:15:27 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <56A663BC.1090604@sydex.com> References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> <00b101d15799$1b5a71a0$520f54e0$@tin.it> <56A663BC.1090604@sydex.com> Message-ID: <59731224-2855-4EC6-B015-54E83C2991A7@nf6x.net> > On Jan 25, 2016, at 10:04 , Chuck Guzis wrote: > > However, my recollection of Warp is that you need two floppies available for the "kicker" loader. Given that PS/2 floppy drives seem to have an unfortunate propensity toward death, you might want to check those out first. It is possible, IIRC, at least on some of the models to substitute a commodity DSHD 3.5" drive with a few small modifications. Luckily, the floppy drives on this machine still seem to be fine. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 12:19:39 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:19:39 -0600 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <59731224-2855-4EC6-B015-54E83C2991A7@nf6x.net> References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> <00b101d15799$1b5a71a0$520f54e0$@tin.it> <56A663BC.1090604@sydex.com> <59731224-2855-4EC6-B015-54E83C2991A7@nf6x.net> Message-ID: You should also be able to attach an external SCSI CD drive using a device like the Trantor T-348, which is a parallel port -to- SCSI adapter built into a cable. I've used one many times to load OS onto some weird old machine that lacked any other (easy) options. There are both DOS and Linux drivers for the Trantor adapters. On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > On Jan 25, 2016, at 10:04 , Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > However, my recollection of Warp is that you need two floppies available > for the "kicker" loader. Given that PS/2 floppy drives seem to have an > unfortunate propensity toward death, you might want to check those out > first. It is possible, IIRC, at least on some of the models to substitute > a commodity DSHD 3.5" drive with a few small modifications. > > Luckily, the floppy drives on this machine still seem to be fine. > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 25 12:25:47 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 10:25:47 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> <00b101d15799$1b5a71a0$520f54e0$@tin.it> <56A663BC.1090604@sydex.com> <59731224-2855-4EC6-B015-54E83C2991A7@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <7D1724F3-FE8C-4B19-BAAB-A532A3EA537A@nf6x.net> > On Jan 25, 2016, at 10:19, drlegendre . wrote: > > You should also be able to attach an external SCSI CD drive using a device > like the Trantor T-348, which is a parallel port -to- SCSI adapter built > into a cable. I should also be able to plug one into the system's external SCSI port. I don't think I still have an external SCSI CD drive, but I could borrow the internal one from my Sun Ultra 60. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Jan 25 12:58:28 2016 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 19:58:28 +0100 Subject: Terminal Emulation for Windows - supporting Kermit File Transfer In-Reply-To: <01PVW8JS356Q00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20160125195828.Horde.fEDkDTeawXBipK7WMTd_mNY@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Not so much of luck so far.... a) http://www.kermitproject.org/k95sourcecode.html lists 2 "projects" with windows binaries. The first one seems to work, but when it comes to downloading files from the connected system, k95 just terminates. the 2nd project just does not start at all. b) TeraTerm is able to recieve files (but you have to manually click "recieve" while the connected system sits there and tries to send send send send send.... a regular kermit automatically detects that) But TeraTerm can not transfer a file to the connected system c) Mapping my Windows COM-Port to a FreeBSD Oracle VirtualBox VM seems to work, but I'm not able to send CTRL + \ + C via Putty to the VM to get back from my serial connection to Kermit to terminate it Oh dear..... From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 13:11:59 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:11:59 -0700 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <7D1724F3-FE8C-4B19-BAAB-A532A3EA537A@nf6x.net> References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> <00b101d15799$1b5a71a0$520f54e0$@tin.it> <56A663BC.1090604@sydex.com> <59731224-2855-4EC6-B015-54E83C2991A7@nf6x.net> <7D1724F3-FE8C-4B19-BAAB-A532A3EA537A@nf6x.net> Message-ID: I would second the idea of running OS/2 Warp on it. Though FWIW, I would recommend Warp Connect (blue spine). It will give you TCP/IP networking (over Ethernet, and not just dial-up like the "Internet Connection for OS/2" that shipped with "vanilla" Warp's Bonus Pak) out of the box. If you get Warp Connect (or any version of Warp, for that matter) going, I would strongly recommend applying all of the available FixPaks for it, which should let you run at least some version of WarpZilla, and save you a great deal of headaches. From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Mon Jan 25 13:29:48 2016 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 19:29:48 +0000 Subject: HP 700lx Message-ID: >Message: 6 >Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 21:42:59 +0000 >From: Benjamin Huntsman >To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" >Subject: HP 700lx > >Hi! > Maybe a long shot, but does anyone on here have an HP OmniGo 700LX? And further, might anyone be willing to sell one? > >Thanks! > >-Ben You might try asking Michel Bel at michel at belconsult.net. He repairs HPLX palmtops and is in Belgium. Also try posting a request to the HPLX mailing list at hplx at mail.eberl.com. Bob From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 14:58:58 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 09:58:58 +1300 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> <00b101d15799$1b5a71a0$520f54e0$@tin.it> <56A663BC.1090604@sydex.com> <59731224-2855-4EC6-B015-54E83C2991A7@nf6x.net> <7D1724F3-FE8C-4B19-BAAB-A532A3EA537A@nf6x.net> Message-ID: The 'best' 'prepackaged' version of OS/2 to have is probably the one called 'DemoPkg'. Back in the day it was for IBM and Business Partners internal use only and - as the name suggests - included an OS/2 system preconfigured and installed with a whole bunch of interesting software. Came as a set of several CDs. Not that easy to lay your hands on these days. Mike On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 8:11 AM, John Willis wrote: > I would second the idea of running OS/2 Warp on it. Though FWIW, I would > recommend Warp Connect (blue spine). > It will give you TCP/IP networking (over Ethernet, and not just dial-up > like the "Internet Connection for OS/2" that shipped > with "vanilla" Warp's Bonus Pak) out of the box. If you get Warp Connect > (or any version of Warp, for that matter) > going, I would strongly recommend applying all of the available FixPaks for > it, which should let you run at least some > version of WarpZilla, and save you a great deal of headaches. -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From rrissell at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 09:44:02 2016 From: rrissell at gmail.com (Robert Rissell) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 10:44:02 -0500 Subject: HP 700lx In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a like-new OmniGo 120 with all the accessories ( including link to Windows). Apparently it will even boot into DOS. Not the same as the phone-based 700lx though. More of a fold-open HP calculator. On Jan 24, 2016 4:56 PM, wrote: > and after ben gets his we would buy one for SMECC also... see > _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) > I have an omni whatever that looks like the computer part of this but > never saw it with a phone on top! > > here is a video I found of this thing on the net... > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1UtCJ84Ris > > weird... I must have been asleep when this came out... If I had seen > it I would have lusted after it! > > Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) > > > > In a message dated 1/24/2016 2:43:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu writes: > > Hi! > Maybe a long shot, but does anyone on here have an HP OmniGo 700LX? And > further, might anyone be willing to sell one? > > Thanks! > > -Ben > From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Jan 25 12:55:21 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 10:55:21 -0800 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: <007e01d15785$26731c40$735954c0$@xs4all.nl> References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> <002e01d156ea$25aebe40$710c3ac0$@xs4all.nl> <007e01d15785$26731c40$735954c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: So sounds like 1. get a 9825 (or find someone that has one locally) Reason for a 9825 is it is the only one with a tape drive that will read the tapes Is this correct ? 2. prep the tape(s) 3. copy the data from the tape to a 9895A -- any ever do a emulator ? 4. read the data/run with a 68010 based 200 series .. will the original 300 work ? I've not taken a DC-100 apart but have done many DC-300's I've got a box of DC-100's that I don't care what is on them, I'll find it and use one of the tapes as a test case. Looks like I've got a long ways to go .... -pete On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 7:29 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > > A picture of an example tape > > > > http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=5246 > > > > -pete > > > > Pete, > > Those are DC100A tapes used in the HP 98X5 series computers. > The programs are not compatible with the 9000/300 series. > I couldn't see the tape number on the label but I think it's a 9825A/B > tape written in HPL. > Instrument software on this kind of tapes I've seen was written for the > 9825. > You'll need a HP 9825 to read this tapes and copy them to a disk (8" HP > 9895A). > The tapes are very fragile, 90% the belts are stuck to the tape. > And you need to warm the tape to about 50-60C to get the belt from the > tape without peeling of the magnetic layer. > After that the belt needs to be reconditioned (see my earlier mail) and > the tape may be needed to be baked (several hours in an oven at 55-60C). > After that you have only a few (1-6) passes to read the tape, before it > becomes badly readable. > Replacing and removing the drive belt will need some practicing (I've done > it). > When the programs are copied to disk it's possible to read them on a HP > 9000/200 series computer with HPL for the 200 series. > http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=169 > Which will not run on the 9000/382 or other processors higher/later than > the 68010. > > -Rik > > > > From saburwulf at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 13:00:02 2016 From: saburwulf at gmail.com (Joshua Stetson) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:00:02 -0800 Subject: ISO: Outer rails for RK05 In-Reply-To: <56A5D68D.4090503@gmail.com> References: <56A5D68D.4090503@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bumping this request as I'm looking for the same, as well as an actual rack. :) Josh On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Anyone happen to have a spare set of outer rackmount rails for an RK05? I > have the inner rails that attach to the drive, and I'm trying to track down > the outer parts that attach to the rack, with the inner slide. Getting > very close to having a semi-respectable PDP-8/m system put together, just > need to get the hardware mounted. (And track down the impossible RK05 > cabling. And debug the controller. And probably a dozen other things...) > > Thanks, > Josh > > From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Jan 25 13:57:24 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:57:24 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <7D1724F3-FE8C-4B19-BAAB-A532A3EA537A@nf6x.net> References: <944CE8C5-448B-402F-94FA-05C6F9D15485@nf6x.net> <56A659AC.7070204@sydex.com> <00b101d15799$1b5a71a0$520f54e0$@tin.it> <56A663BC.1090604@sydex.com> <59731224-2855-4EC6-B015-54E83C2991A7@nf6x.net> <7D1724F3-FE8C-4B19-BAAB-A532A3EA537A@nf6x.net> Message-ID: This brings back memories. One place I worked used a IBM "Industrial" PS/2. It's main board was the same as a regular PS/2 don't remember the model. We were buying so many of these things IBM set us up as reseller. Still have the "Authorized Reseller" sign somewhere in the basement. These things were not cheap, remember something like 3 times the price of the regular model, but they were all the same parts in a rack mount case. But being IBM even though we never needed a keyboard, mouse etc. Everyone came with one. Still have a couple of the keyboards, the only difference all the industrial systems were a dark gray. The big waste was the software, every system came with a PS/2 box with both a CD and floppies, and an envelope with driver / firmware floppies. For the longest time we could not throw out the software, we had in dock at one time the whole top row of pallet racks where PS/2 Floppies, CDs, keyboard, mice, etc etc. And one day PS/2 was updated ... something like 400 new copies of the O/S showed up on pallets. I remember at that point the lawyers getting more involved and all the excess disappeared. On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 10:25 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > > On Jan 25, 2016, at 10:19, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > You should also be able to attach an external SCSI CD drive using a > device > > like the Trantor T-348, which is a parallel port -to- SCSI adapter built > > into a cable. > > I should also be able to plug one into the system's external SCSI port. I > don't think I still have an external SCSI CD drive, but I could borrow the > internal one from my Sun Ultra 60. > From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Jan 25 14:06:23 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:06:23 -0800 Subject: V05.06 RT-11 DOC Set - Pickup Required in Los Angeles to Help Jay West In-Reply-To: <7FB9CFF7-4DAA-4D29-90DD-8AEE970D7C6D@nf6x.net> References: <56A575E4.20708@compsys.to> <8685A644-C30F-48FD-B230-DE7A064EE926@nf6x.net> <7FB9CFF7-4DAA-4D29-90DD-8AEE970D7C6D@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Have one of the UPS/FedEx packaging place go pick them up, pack, then ship. On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Per off-list email, it looks like the manuals are near the > Pasadena/Glendale border, which is over 2 hours from me... and there's a > dumpster deadline on Thursday, so I don't think I can help with this one. :( > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 15:54:34 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 17:54:34 -0400 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> <002e01d156ea$25aebe40$710c3ac0$@xs4all.nl> <007e01d15785$26731c40$735954c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <56A6999A.6080908@gmail.com> On 2016-01-25 2:55 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > So sounds like > > 1. get a 9825 (or find someone that has one locally) > > Reason for a 9825 is it is the only one with a tape drive that will read > the tapes > > Is this correct ? > > 2. prep the tape(s) > 3. copy the data from the tape to a 9895A -- any ever do a emulator ? > 4. read the data/run with a 68010 based 200 series .. will the original 300 > work ? > > I've not taken a DC-100 apart but have done many DC-300's I've got a box of > DC-100's that I don't care what is on them, I'll find it and use one of the > tapes as a test case. > > Looks like I've got a long ways to go .... > > -pete > > These tapes where used in a number of machine such as 9825, 9831, 9835, 9845, 9915, and 85A&B. There was also at least 1 external tape drive that used these tapes not to mention DEC made a drive for them as well. If you hope to recover the data off the tapes you would probably need access to the system they where written on as the data format is not the same on all machines. I can't think of any of the 68K 9000s that used DC100A tapes by then almost everything was diskettes 8", 5.25, and 3.5 where all supported however some of the early software for 200s was quite restricted in the formats supported. The DC100A has the same arrangement inside as a DC-300 just smaller. I have had some success replacing rotted drive belts with PLASTIBANDS. Paul. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 25 15:58:58 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 21:58:58 -0000 Subject: ISO: Outer rails for RK05 In-Reply-To: References: <56A5D68D.4090503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <025301d157bb$98017bf0$c80473d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joshua > Stetson > Sent: 25 January 2016 19:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: ISO: Outer rails for RK05 > > Bumping this request as I'm looking for the same, as well as an actual rack. :) > I am in a similar position. I think I just need the outer rails, ie the ones that bolt to the rack itself. There are some rails on the drive itself, although I don't know if they are complete. Regards Rob > Josh > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Josh Dersch > wrote: > > > Anyone happen to have a spare set of outer rackmount rails for an > > RK05? I have the inner rails that attach to the drive, and I'm trying > > to track down the outer parts that attach to the rack, with the inner > > slide. Getting very close to having a semi-respectable PDP-8/m system > > put together, just need to get the hardware mounted. (And track down > > the impossible RK05 cabling. And debug the controller. And probably > > a dozen other things...) > > > > Thanks, > > Josh > > > > From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Jan 25 16:03:28 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 22:03:28 +0000 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6D219849-F319-4012-9044-E2989C3F86D2@swri.edu> On Jan 25, 2016, at 12:29 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > So, would any of y'all like to help me brainstorm about interesting applications for this vintage heap, or maybe point me towards non-eBay sources of software that it would like to run? Great work on the restoration! Distributed.net? http://www.distributed.net/Download_clients ?no networking support? on the PC-DOS/MS-DOS client I think means you have to get work units via email or other means to a net-connected machine, then transfer them to the MS-DOS machine via kermit or similar, then crunch, then reverse the process to get credit. However, even at 66 MHz you won?t have to do that very often? my 25 MHz NeXT cube 040 does a bit less than one work unit per 2 days. Until/unless you get it on Warp/Connect, maybe that?s OK? OS/2 clients have done 5.67 million blocks, and MS-DOS 1.31 million blocks so far: http://stats.distributed.net/misc/platformlist.php?project_id=8&view=tco so you?ll have some company. (But, a lot of those clients have shifted over to working on OGR-28.) Yes, that?s mostly me down near the bottom of that list, with my 68k/NeXTStep running for 13 years. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 25 16:16:33 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 23:16:33 +0100 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> <002e01d156ea$25aebe40$710c3ac0$@xs4all.nl> <007e01d15785$26731c40$735954c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000301d157be$0d989040$28c9b0c0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Pete Lancashire > Verzonden: maandag 25 januari 2016 19:55 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: HP 9000/382 Questions > > So sounds like > > 1. get a 9825 (or find someone that has one locally) > > Reason for a 9825 is it is the only one with a tape drive that will read the tapes > > Is this correct ? > > 2. prep the tape(s) > 3. copy the data from the tape to a 9895A -- any ever do a emulator ? > 4. read the data/run with a 68010 based 200 series .. will the original 300 work ? > > I've not taken a DC-100 apart but have done many DC-300's I've got a box of > DC-100's that I don't care what is on them, I'll find it and use one of the tapes as > a test case. > > Looks like I've got a long ways to go .... > > -pete > Yes and no, you'll need a 9825B with the 98228A 9895/9885 Flexible Disc ROM an 98034A/B HP-IB Interface and of cause a HP 9895A Disc drive ;) And there will be a problem if there is a binary file on the tape, at the moment it is impossible to copy them, the 9825 is missing the tools to copy them. As far as I know an emulator isn't available (yet ?). For which instrument do you have the tapes, I've some disc's for the HP 8566B and 68B SA's for RMB systems (HP 9000/200-300 Rocky Mountain Basic). For some other equipment I should also have some files. -Rik From pchatt30 at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 16:20:30 2016 From: pchatt30 at gmail.com (Peter Faraday) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 22:20:30 +0000 Subject: Mitsubishi Apricot Message-ID: Hi all, Dose anybody know about Mitsubishi Apricots (1990ish)? They are of interest to me as they were the first PC I used and I now have a few. I'm having issues with getting them to boot from a floppy. Iv done some reading around the subject and from what I understand I need a secure boot floppy. Can anybody help? Thanks Peter From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 25 16:22:24 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 23:22:24 +0100 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: <56A6999A.6080908@gmail.com> References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> <002e01d156ea$25aebe40$710c3ac0$@xs4all.nl> <007e01d15785$26731c40$735954c0$@xs4all.nl> <56A6999A.6080908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000401d157be$de3ce2f0$9ab6a8d0$@xs4all.nl> > These tapes where used in a number of machine such as 9825, 9831, 9835, 9845, > 9915, and 85A&B. There was also at least 1 external tape drive that used these > tapes not to mention DEC made a drive for them as well. > If you hope to recover the data off the tapes you would probably need access to > the system they where written on as the data format is not the same on all > machines. > > I can't think of any of the 68K 9000s that used DC100A tapes by then almost > everything was diskettes 8", 5.25, and 3.5 where all supported however some of > the early software for 200s was quite restricted in the formats supported. > > The DC100A has the same arrangement inside as a DC-300 just smaller. I have > had some success replacing rotted drive belts with PLASTIBANDS. > > Paul. Aagh, I forgot about the HP85 some instrument programs where written for those. So you have to check the part numbers of the tape and look in the service manuals to see where the tapes are for. The 9875A and 9877A are external tape drives for the DC100A tapes almost unobtainable like the HP 9831A which is also very rare (I know just 3 including mine) . The only 9875A and 9877A I know are at both the HP Museums. -Rik From cctalk at fahimi.net Mon Jan 25 16:26:34 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 14:26:34 -0800 Subject: Mitsubishi Apricot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004e01d157bf$73ae2e20$5b0a8a60$@net> > Hi all, > > Dose anybody know about Mitsubishi Apricots (1990ish)? They are of > interest to me as they were the first PC I used and I now have a few. > I'm having issues with getting them to boot from a floppy. Iv done some > reading around the subject and from what I understand I need a secure > boot floppy. > > Can anybody help? > > Thanks Peter, Which Apricot models do you have? I have lusted after an Apricot VX FT since it graced the cover of Byte oh so many years ago! -Ali From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 16:31:19 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:31:19 +1300 Subject: Mitsubishi Apricot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a collection of Apricots including a Qi from about that period. Haven't played in ages but as I recall one of their selling points was a strange security system involving an ?infra red? remote key....? (and I mean *key* - not keyboard!) Mike On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Peter Faraday wrote: > Hi all, > > Dose anybody know about Mitsubishi Apricots (1990ish)? They are of interest > to me as they were the first PC I used and I now have a few. I'm having > issues with getting them to boot from a floppy. Iv done some reading around > the subject and from what I understand I need a secure boot floppy. > > Can anybody help? > > Thanks > > Peter -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jan 25 18:17:42 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 19:17:42 -0500 Subject: V05.06 RT-11 DOC Set - Pickup Required in Los Angeles to Help Jay West In-Reply-To: References: <56A575E4.20708@compsys.to> <8685A644-C30F-48FD-B230-DE7A064EE926@nf6x.net> <7FB9CFF7-4DAA-4D29-90DD-8AEE970D7C6D@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <56A6BB26.1080905@compsys.to> >Pete Lancashire wrote: >Have one of the UPS/FedEx packaging place go pick them up, pack, then ship. > > > >>On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > >>Per off-list email, it looks like the manuals are near the >>Pasadena/Glendale border, which is over 2 hours from me... and there's a >>dumpster deadline on Thursday, so I don't think I can help with this one. :( >> >>-- >>Mark J. Blair, NF6X >>http://www.nf6x.net/ >> Another list member has arranged to do a pickup and ship the manuals via media mail. Jerome Fine From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 18:33:56 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 18:33:56 -0600 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> On 01/25/2016 12:29 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > To my surprise, I found something just barely old enough to interest me > on the e-waste pile at work: An IBM PS/2 85 from around 1993 or so. Neat. Likewise here, I found a 65sx a couple of years ago and it's just quirky and old enough to keep around. Surprisingly the right mouse for it turned up a short while after, and then I found a period model M around 6 months ago. > The machine has 12M of parity RAM, with one SIMM slot pair still open. If you ever find any surplus RAM, shout - my system had 6M, but 4 of that is snafu, and it could really use a little more. > I replaced the CMOS battery (conveniently, a CR2032 coin cell, available > at the local supermarket) Lucky. Mine head a dead Dallas chip which I had to attack with a dremel to expose the battery connections. Oh, and a ton of gloopy, decaying black foam sound-deadening / baffle material. > OS/2 2.0 would probably be more appropriate for this machine, but I > don't have it. I was hopeful that mine would, but sadly not - just an MS-DOS system. It does have a copy of Micro CADAM on there, which I expect was what it spent its life running. > And now that it is cleaned up and working, I have no clue about what to > do with it! Mine just kind of sits around in case I ever *need* an MCA-bus system for some oddball reason. The copy of CADAM on it is vaguely interesting, but the UI isn't exactly intuitive and without documentation it's difficult to make it do anything. cheers Jules From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 20:10:51 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 19:10:51 -0700 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: <56A6999A.6080908@gmail.com> References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> <002e01d156ea$25aebe40$710c3ac0$@xs4all.nl> <007e01d15785$26731c40$735954c0$@xs4all.nl> <56A6999A.6080908@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > These tapes where used in a number of machine such as 9825, 9831, 9835, > 9845, 9915, and 85A&B. And the HP 9815 desktop calculator, 2644 terminal, 4951A protocol analyzer. Probably other products as well. > There was also at least 1 external tape drive that > used these tapes HP 9875 dual, 9877 quad > not to mention DEC made a drive for them as well. The DEC TU58 drive uses the same physical cartridge (DC100), but can't read HP formatted tapes, or vice versa. From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 25 23:01:32 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 21:01:32 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> Message-ID: I found a floppy-based image set for OS/2 Warp 3 Connect 3.0, but most of the images are 1.8M XDF images which I don't think I can write on my 3.5" USB floppy drive. I also downloaded an ISO of OS/2 Warp 3 Connect BonusPak 3.0, and I pulled a SCSI CDROM drive out of a spare Sun Ultra 60 organ donor. I don't have any CDR media, so I have a spindle on the way from Amazon now. If my PS/2 can't boot directly from that CDROM, then I'll have more challenges ahead! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 25 23:24:11 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 21:24:11 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> Looking at that BonusPak ISO, it doesn't seem to be bootable (I tried booting it in VMWare), and I think it's just extra software rather than an OS installation disk. So I think my next challenge is to figure out how to write out 1.8M XDF floppies from the installation floppy images. Maybe I can find a utility to write them from DOS? I have a 386 clone running MS-DOS 6.22 that I use for running ImageDisk. I use a SCSI2SD in it for its hard drive, and I can pop the MicroSD card into a reader on my Mac to get files on and off of it. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 23:42:00 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 21:42:00 -0800 Subject: Free (for pickup): RX02 external enclosure (Seattle, WA) In-Reply-To: <20160125094851.GA25702@Update.UU.SE> References: <56A5D4B7.4070508@gmail.com> <20160125094851.GA25702@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <56A70728.1040801@gmail.com> On 1/25/16 1:48 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > I would love one with my "table-top" PDP-8/E. I suspect shipping over > the pond will kill it though. Do you have measurements of dimensions and > weight? It's 20"x19"x10.5" (approximately). Not sure how much it weighs, but it can't be more than 15-20lbs. It's the size that's going to make the shipping expensive, though. > > What does it look like, how does one mount the RX02 in the enclosure? Do > you have any pictures? Basically the bottom half of the enclosure matches up with the mounting holes for drive rails on the RX02 itself, and it just screws in there. Very straightforward. It looks like I have a local taker for this, but I'll let you know if it falls through... - Josh > > Kind Regards, > Pontus. > > On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 11:54:31PM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I just rack-mounted my RX02 and I have no need for the "table-top" enclosure >> it came in any longer (as nice as it is). It's in good shape, but it's >> missing one rubber foot. >> >> Free to a good home. I'm near Seattle, WA. >> >> - Josh >> From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Jan 25 21:52:18 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 19:52:18 -0800 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> <002e01d156ea$25aebe40$710c3ac0$@xs4all.nl> <007e01d15785$26731c40$735954c0$@xs4all.nl> <56A6999A.6080908@gmail.com> Message-ID: > 4951A protocol analyzer My luck, last fall I could of had 4 of them for free. :-) But dont need a drive. I've been asking a few T&M friends and I maybe able to get the test/calibration software in newer formats and in HP Basic. That would eliminate the whole issue. Sounds like time to make a want list to use for searching. Got to put the toy away for now, hopefully in a month will be able to get back to getting one of these guys going. Thanks for all the help so far... will order a 68pin to 50pin SCSI drive adapter and hope does not have the same issue the 16700A logic analyzers have, no drive > 4 (or 8GB cant remember). -pete -pete On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > These tapes where used in a number of machine such as 9825, 9831, 9835, > > 9845, 9915, and 85A&B. > > And the HP 9815 desktop calculator, 2644 terminal, 4951A protocol > analyzer. Probably other products as well. > > > There was also at least 1 external tape drive that > > used these tapes > > HP 9875 dual, 9877 quad > > > not to mention DEC made a drive for them as well. > > The DEC TU58 drive uses the same physical cartridge (DC100), but can't > read HP formatted tapes, or vice versa. > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 26 01:27:22 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:27:22 +0100 Subject: Free (for pickup): RX02 external enclosure (Seattle, WA) In-Reply-To: <56A70728.1040801@gmail.com> References: <56A5D4B7.4070508@gmail.com> <20160125094851.GA25702@Update.UU.SE> <56A70728.1040801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160126072722.GA7223@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 09:42:00PM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 1/25/16 1:48 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >Hi > > > >I would love one with my "table-top" PDP-8/E. I suspect shipping over > >the pond will kill it though. Do you have measurements of dimensions and > >weight? > It's 20"x19"x10.5" (approximately). Not sure how much it weighs, but it > can't be more than 15-20lbs. It's the size that's going to make the > shipping expensive, though. Yup, about 1500 - 2000 SEK ( ~ 175 - 230 $). And, as you say, weight doesn't really matter. It is within reason, but I will have to pass, not enough spendin money at the moment. Unless I can find RK05 rails and you want to make some kind of deal :) /P From pchatt30 at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 01:28:32 2016 From: pchatt30 at gmail.com (Peter Chatt) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 07:28:32 +0000 Subject: Mitsubishi Apricot In-Reply-To: <004e01d157bf$73ae2e20$5b0a8a60$@net> References: <004e01d157bf$73ae2e20$5b0a8a60$@net> Message-ID: <84086E79-D235-4C6C-AC4E-B826DB382D36@gmail.com> Hi, well this is amazing. It's only the second time some one has known what I'm talking about! I have 6 LANstations a mix of 16s and 20s. Only one of them will boot which I boot from its hdd or a Netwear 3.12 server. Iv tried all sorts over the years (about 15). These don't have the infrared system but in specs Iv read on the bios there is mention of a security bit on the boot floppy. I need some one that worked on them back in the day. It's SO frustrating, as is the way of playing with old tech. Peter On 25 Jan 2016, at 22:26, Ali wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Dose anybody know about Mitsubishi Apricots (1990ish)? They are of >> interest to me as they were the first PC I used and I now have a few. >> I'm having issues with getting them to boot from a floppy. Iv done some >> reading around the subject and from what I understand I need a secure >> boot floppy. >> >> Can anybody help? >> >> Thanks > > Peter, > > Which Apricot models do you have? I have lusted after an Apricot VX FT since it graced the cover of Byte oh so many years ago! > > -Ali > From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jan 26 01:35:51 2016 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 23:35:51 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > images. Maybe I can find a utility to write them from DOS? I have a 386 clone running MS-DOS 6.22 that I use for running ImageDisk. There's an LOADDSKF program on the CD that can be used to write the images to floppies, from DOS. It may even be in the directory with the floppy images. (\DISKIMGS IIRC. It's been >20 years.) ok bear. -- until further notice From Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de Tue Jan 26 02:29:57 2016 From: Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de (Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 09:29:57 +0100 Subject: Terminal Emulation for Windows - supporting Kermit File Message-ID: <002b01d15813$bde92090$39bb61b0$@MH-AeroTools.de> > Is there free-for-use Kermit alternative around to be used for > Windows or another Terminal Emulation which supports Kermit > File Transfers "out of the box"? > > Yes - I know Kermit 95, but this is not free. > As Rik said, TeraTerm is very useful and also offers Tektronix emulation, ASCII up- and download and much more. If you search for k95.exe you fill find some ftp and web sites which also have executables of Kermit 95. You can also run MSDOS-Kermit in a Virtual Machine if you like. Finally, I think you can also use the HyperTerm program from Windows XP on later Windows versions. Nartin From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jan 26 03:43:30 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 10:43:30 +0100 (CET) Subject: Terminal Emulation for Windows - supporting Kermit File Transfer In-Reply-To: <20160125195828.Horde.fEDkDTeawXBipK7WMTd_mNY@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20160125195828.Horde.fEDkDTeawXBipK7WMTd_mNY@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 2016, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Not so much of luck so far.... MS-DOS Kermit should run just fine under Windows, at least the last time I tried it... Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jan 26 04:00:06 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:00:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: <000401d157be$de3ce2f0$9ab6a8d0$@xs4all.nl> References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> <002e01d156ea$25aebe40$710c3ac0$@xs4all.nl> <007e01d15785$26731c40$735954c0$@xs4all.nl> <56A6999A.6080908@gmail.com> <000401d157be$de3ce2f0$9ab6a8d0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 2016, Rik Bos wrote: >> These tapes where used in a number of machine such as 9825, 9831, 9835, 9845, >> 9915, and 85A&B. There was also at least 1 external tape drive that used these [...] > Aagh, I forgot about the HP85 some instrument programs where written for [...] For me, the most obvious machines would be the HP264x terminals ;-) There are numerous software packaged on DC100 cartridges meant to be read/used with e.g. a HP2645 terminal attached to a HP system (HP1000 or HP3000) Christian From ccmpcpg at yahoo.de Tue Jan 26 04:30:39 2016 From: ccmpcpg at yahoo.de (Christian Groessler) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:30:39 +0100 Subject: Terminal Emulation for Windows - supporting Kermit File Transfer In-Reply-To: <20160125195828.Horde.fEDkDTeawXBipK7WMTd_mNY@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20160125195828.Horde.fEDkDTeawXBipK7WMTd_mNY@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <56A74ACF.8050505@yahoo.de> On 01/25/16 19:58, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > c) > Mapping my Windows COM-Port to a FreeBSD Oracle VirtualBox VM seems > to work, but I'm not able to send CTRL + \ + C via Putty to the VM > to get back from my serial connection to Kermit to terminate it You could set the escape char to something else (which you are able to type).... regards, chris From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 04:56:58 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 03:56:58 -0700 Subject: HP 9000/380 console? software? (was Re: HP 9000/382 Questions) Message-ID: I've borrowed an HP 9000/380 from a friend, along with a 9122D floppy drive, but no software. It has an A1416A Color VRX DIO-II "Kathmandu" video interface, but I'm hoping that I can just use the serial port as a console. Does the DE9 serial console use the IBM pinout? Do I have to pull the A1416A to get it to use the serial port as the console? Is there any software that can be booted on it from the floppy, such as perhaps non-HP-UX BASIC? From radiotest at juno.com Tue Jan 26 07:04:33 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:04:33 -0500 Subject: Terminal Emulation for Windows - supporting Kermit File Transfer In-Reply-To: <20160125195828.Horde.fEDkDTeawXBipK7WMTd_mNY@avocado.salat schuessel.net> References: <01PVW8JS356Q00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie> <20160125195828.Horde.fEDkDTeawXBipK7WMTd_mNY@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160126075921.03df3550@juno.com> I still use a computer with Windows 98 SE and a native serial port for terminal emulation. The program that I use is not free but it does more varieties of terminal emulation, and does them better than any other emulator that I have used - ProComm Plus. I have owned it for about twenty years. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 08:30:43 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:30:43 +0100 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 26 January 2016 at 06:24, Mark J. Blair wrote: > So I think my next challenge is to figure out how to write out 1.8M XDF floppies from the installation floppy images. Maybe I can find a utility to write them from DOS? I have a 386 clone running MS-DOS 6.22 that I use for running ImageDisk. Should work. Even a DOS shell under Windows should, I think. They're just 1.4MB disks with some extra sectors per track and tracks -- pushing the spec a little, not different hardware. There are lots of disk images of OS/2 out there -- I used to have 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2.0, 2.1, 3.0, 4.0 and 4.5 before I switched countries. Try VetusWare: http://vetusware.com/ Or OldDos Ru: http://old-dos.ru/ However, sorry to say, but I think the 3.x / 4.x timeline will be too new and require higher-spec hardware than a 486 with 12MB. > I use a SCSI2SD in it for its hard drive, and I can pop the MicroSD card into a reader on my Mac to get files on and off of it. Mid-1990s era CDs were usually not bootable media, because the firmware of the time couldn't do it. You tended to need to boot off a floppy or 2 and a small setup program ran, then accessed the CD and bootstrapped the main one off CD. So don't expect the ISO to be bootable. Look on it for boot floppy images, in /BOOTDISK/ or something like that. Another option: Boot it under DOS. Install MSCDEX and SCSI CD drivers -- and SMARTDRV. Ensure that DOS can see and read the CD-ROM drive and that it's cached. (Important -- CDs are very slow without caching.) Copy the OS/2 files into a subdirectory of the DOS drive, or even into a whole dedicated partition. (Older versions should be _substantially_ less than a CD-full.) E.g.: C: -- MS-DOS D: -- OS/2 OS E: -- installer files F: -- free for data or swap file. Then hack the config file on the boot CD to read the files from the hard disk. I've been following your posts on Twitter about this, and enjoying it. :-) Good work so far! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jan 26 08:28:45 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 06:28:45 -0800 Subject: V05.06 RT-11 DOC Set - Pickup Required in Los Angeles to Help Jay West In-Reply-To: <56A6BB26.1080905@compsys.to> References: <56A575E4.20708@compsys.to> <8685A644-C30F-48FD-B230-DE7A064EE926@nf6x.net> <7FB9CFF7-4DAA-4D29-90DD-8AEE970D7C6D@nf6x.net> <56A6BB26.1080905@compsys.to> Message-ID: Great .. now if I could get a RSX-11M set .. I would be 1/3 the way there. Just doing PDP11's with emulation for now Wishing now I never gave away my PDP11-40+4xRK05+2xRP03+TU?? Loved the disk controller in its own rack I just did not have room for 3 racks+the two RP02's in 1987 On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Pete Lancashire wrote: > > Have one of the UPS/FedEx packaging place go pick them up, pack, then ship. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>> >> >> >> >>> Per off-list email, it looks like the manuals are near the >>> Pasadena/Glendale border, which is over 2 hours from me... and there's a >>> dumpster deadline on Thursday, so I don't think I can help with this >>> one. :( >>> >>> -- >>> Mark J. Blair, NF6X >>> http://www.nf6x.net/ >>> >>> Another list member has arranged to do a pickup and ship > the manuals via media mail. > > Jerome Fine > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Jan 26 10:24:33 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:24:33 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <60BB93EF-8C7C-4BA3-82B7-4BCF24623AE3@nf6x.net> > On Jan 26, 2016, at 06:30, Liam Proven wrote: > > Try VetusWare: > http://vetusware.com/ I have been getting my OS/2 images from there. > > Or OldDos Ru: > http://old-dos.ru/ That site looks a bit more challenging for an English-only speaker. :) Maybe google translate can help me find my way around... yeah, much better now. Thanks for the links! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 12:09:10 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 10:09:10 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> On 01/26/2016 06:30 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 26 January 2016 at 06:24, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> So I think my next challenge is to figure out how to write out 1.8M >> XDF floppies from the installation floppy images. Maybe I can find >> a utility to write them from DOS? I have a 386 clone running MS-DOS >> 6.22 that I use for running ImageDisk. > > Should work. Even a DOS shell under Windows should, I think. They're > just 1.4MB disks with some extra sectors per track and tracks -- > pushing the spec a little, not different hardware. Just remember that a USB floppy is the wrong kit to use to do this. They embody firmware that knows only 3 fixed formats: 9x512, 18x512 and 8x1024 (sectors x bytes per sector). You need an honest-to-gosh legacy floppy and controller. Not as convoluted as MS DMF format, but not USB-compatible in any case. --Chuck From pchatt30 at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 13:22:08 2016 From: pchatt30 at gmail.com (Peter Chatt) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:22:08 +0000 Subject: Mitsubishi Apricot In-Reply-To: <004e01d157bf$73ae2e20$5b0a8a60$@net> References: <004e01d157bf$73ae2e20$5b0a8a60$@net> Message-ID: I too would love to find a vx but I think the chances of that are none existent. Peter On 25 Jan 2016, at 22:26, Ali wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Dose anybody know about Mitsubishi Apricots (1990ish)? They are of >> interest to me as they were the first PC I used and I now have a few. >> I'm having issues with getting them to boot from a floppy. Iv done some >> reading around the subject and from what I understand I need a secure >> boot floppy. >> >> Can anybody help? >> >> Thanks > > Peter, > > Which Apricot models do you have? I have lusted after an Apricot VX FT since it graced the cover of Byte oh so many years ago! > > -Ali > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 14:44:11 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 20:44:11 +0000 Subject: DEC TS05 mains switch Message-ID: As I mentioned some time back, I am currently restoring a VAX 11/730 system. It is the version with the TS05 on the top, I currently have the TS05 in many bits while I sort out at least 4 faults with it (No, I've not sorted out the TU58 console tape drive yet, I needed something else to get on with while I was thinking about that). One problem with the TS05 (Rebadged Cipher F880E, of course) is the mains switch. Only one pole (double pole switch) opens, and it gave quite a nasty spark when I put mans on the unit. So I want to replace it. The problem is that I have never seen one like it before. It has _5_ terminals. Four of them are what you'd expect for a double pole on/off switch, The other is for the built-in neon indicator. Rather than just wiring it across the output side of the switch (as most do), this unit has a neon with the correct series resistor for 115V operation wired between one of the output side terminals and the fifth terminal. The TS05 puts the neon in parallel with the supply for the 115V blower unit. Thus the power on indicator gets 115V no matter how the voltage selector is set. The switch is the stadard size for double pole rocker switches (30mm * 22mm panel cutout, isn't it?). If I can't get the right replacement I have several options : 1) Fit a normal 230V illuminated rocker swtich, and asssume I will never change the voltage selector setting (but I am trying to keep this machine electrically original). 2) Fit a normal non-illuminated rocker switch. It will then be OK on any mains voltage, but no power-on indicator, and it's not electrically original 3) Fit a non-illuminated rocker switch and find a place to fit a separate neon indicator. It is then electrically original, but won't look right 4) Try to mend the original switch 5) Try to make an equivalent using bits of switches I can get. Does anyone have any ideas where to get the original switch from? -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 26 16:25:45 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 23:25:45 +0100 Subject: HP 9000/380 console? software? (was Re: HP 9000/382 Questions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01d15888$80df7620$829e6260$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Eric Smith > Verzonden: dinsdag 26 januari 2016 11:57 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: HP 9000/380 console? software? (was Re: HP 9000/382 Questions) > > I've borrowed an HP 9000/380 from a friend, along with a 9122D floppy drive, > but no software. It has an A1416A Color VRX DIO-II "Kathmandu" > video interface, but I'm hoping that I can just use the serial port as a console. > Does the DE9 serial console use the IBM pinout? Do I have to pull the A1416A to > get it to use the serial port as the console? > > Is there any software that can be booted on it from the floppy, such as perhaps > non-HP-UX BASIC? The manual says you can't use a terminal on the internal serial port. You can boot Basic 5.1 or 6.2 from disc, on the hp museum site you can download the images. This is the default boot disk they made should work for every 200/300 series. http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=27 I'm not sure if you can run Pascal from a floppy disk. -Rik From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 26 16:46:14 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 14:46:14 -0800 Subject: BC11A paddle boards Message-ID: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com> I just received the first of the BC11A paddle boards (so that I can now create my own BC11A cables). I made two variants of the boards. One where the cables come out the ?top? and another where the cables come out the ?side? (so you don?t have to ?fold? the cable in a number of different applications such as RK05s). The ones that arrived today are the S or ?side? variation (as opposed to the T or ?top? variation). I immediately noticed (why I didn?t see this when I was reviewing the board layout previously I?ll never know) is that one of the cable connectors is too close to the edge. It wouldn?t be a problem except that I chose to use connectors that have cable retention latches. The latches protrude from the board edge by ~0.02?. So once I verify that these work, I?ll move the one connector inward ~0.5?. I have plenty of space, I just don?t know why I put the connector that close to the edge. *sigh*. For these boards, I?ll probably just file the latch down a bit to get the appropriate clearance. BTW, trying to get the connectors onto the board (I haven?t soldered them in yet) was tight. That?s the problem with trying to get 60 pins to all line up correctly. But they fit and are *snug*. I probably won?t go and do any testing until I get the other boards in so it may be a couple more weeks (the boards weren?t supposed to *ship* before 2/8). For those who?d like to know, I probably will not be making a production run of these boards unless I get a *lot* of interest (100 boards or so). If you want some, let me know and if I get enough interest, I?ll do a production run. TTFN - Guy From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 16:48:14 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:48:14 -0700 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 7:47 AM, Paul Berger wrote: > I would really > like to get a HP 9895 8" drive but they seem to be few and far between. Same here. And I'd like to get an 82901M 5.25" drive, and a 9122C HD 3.5". I was surprised to learn that the 9895, while it supports standard IBM 3740 single-density format, uses an HP-proprietary M2FM double-density format. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 17:03:56 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 18:03:56 -0500 Subject: BC11A paddle boards In-Reply-To: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com> References: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I just received the first of the BC11A paddle boards (so that I can now create my own BC11A cables). Cool! > For those who?d like to know, I probably will not be making a production run of these boards unless I get a *lot* of interest (100 boards or so). If you want some, let me know and if I get enough interest, I?ll do a production run. Considering DEC did something like this for the DWBUA, but with 4 30-pin cables (by necessity because of the BI backplane), is 2x60 pins more cost-effective than 4x30? Mostly, I'm curious about how much 60-pin ends cost and the difference in cost between 2 lengths of 60-pin ribbon cable vs 4 lengths of 30-pin cable. The copper cost is the same, but I wasn't sure what the current cost-per-foot is for ribbon cable. I haven't bought a reel of it in 30 years, but I do recall that 40 pin seemed to be more expensive than 4 times the length of 10-pin, for example (since we used both where I worked in the 80s). Either way, these days, the cost of 2x60 vs 4x30 is probably minor compared to the fab costs of a "large" PCB with gold fingers. I'd be curious to know how much a 10' BC11A-work-a-like will run, but I'm vaguely interested in some pairs of boards. I do have plenty of Unibus machines and RK05s, most with vintage cables, but I'm sure several of them have crimps and dings and might fail close inspection. -ethan From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 17:10:01 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:10:01 -0400 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56A7FCC9.8020108@gmail.com> On 2016-01-26 6:48 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 7:47 AM, Paul Berger wrote: >> I would really >> like to get a HP 9895 8" drive but they seem to be few and far between. > Same here. And I'd like to get an 82901M 5.25" drive, and a 9122C HD 3.5". > > I was surprised to learn that the 9895, while it supports standard IBM > 3740 single-density format, uses an HP-proprietary M2FM double-density > format. Well I managed to get a working controller card got a 9895 and I have it connected to a pair of Shugart SA860 drives I have had forever so 8" diskettes, my 9835A is very happy. Paul. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 17:12:33 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:12:33 -0400 Subject: HP 9000/380 console? software? (was Re: HP 9000/382 Questions) In-Reply-To: <000c01d15888$80df7620$829e6260$@xs4all.nl> References: <000c01d15888$80df7620$829e6260$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <56A7FD61.6000908@gmail.com> On 2016-01-26 6:25 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Eric Smith >> Verzonden: dinsdag 26 januari 2016 11:57 >> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: HP 9000/380 console? software? (was Re: HP 9000/382 Questions) >> >> I've borrowed an HP 9000/380 from a friend, along with a 9122D floppy drive, >> but no software. It has an A1416A Color VRX DIO-II "Kathmandu" >> video interface, but I'm hoping that I can just use the serial port as a console. >> Does the DE9 serial console use the IBM pinout? Do I have to pull the A1416A to >> get it to use the serial port as the console? >> >> Is there any software that can be booted on it from the floppy, such as perhaps >> non-HP-UX BASIC? > The manual says you can't use a terminal on the internal serial port. > You can boot Basic 5.1 or 6.2 from disc, on the hp museum site you can download the images. > This is the default boot disk they made should work for every 200/300 series. http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=27 > I'm not sure if you can run Pascal from a floppy disk. > > -Rik > > > You can run Pascal from a diskette, but it runs into a lot of swapping diskettes unless you have a lot of drives. Paul. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 26 17:17:01 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:17:01 -0800 Subject: BC11A paddle boards In-Reply-To: References: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <475BC3DB-5DCD-4604-837A-EF1ED5FD3821@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 26, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> I just received the first of the BC11A paddle boards (so that I can now create my own BC11A cables). > > Cool! > >> For those who?d like to know, I probably will not be making a production run of these boards unless I get a *lot* of interest (100 boards or so). If you want some, let me know and if I get enough interest, I?ll do a production run. > > Considering DEC did something like this for the DWBUA, but with 4 > 30-pin cables (by necessity because of the BI backplane), is 2x60 pins > more cost-effective than 4x30? Mostly, I'm curious about how much > 60-pin ends cost and the difference in cost between 2 lengths of > 60-pin ribbon cable vs 4 lengths of 30-pin cable. The copper cost is > the same, but I wasn't sure what the current cost-per-foot is for > ribbon cable. I haven't bought a reel of it in 30 years, but I do > recall that 40 pin seemed to be more expensive than 4 times the length > of 10-pin, for example (since we used both where I worked in the 80s). > > Either way, these days, the cost of 2x60 vs 4x30 is probably minor > compared to the fab costs of a "large" PCB with gold fingers. I'd be > curious to know how much a 10' BC11A-work-a-like will run, but I'm > vaguely interested in some pairs of boards. I do have plenty of > Unibus machines and RK05s, most with vintage cables, but I'm sure > several of them have crimps and dings and might fail close inspection. > My choice of 2 60 pin connectors vs a larger number of smaller connectors was routability on a 2 layer board. I wanted to make it as simple as possible. With 2 60 pin connectors, I can keep the signals going from the edge connector to the ribbon cable connector all on one side. I?m mostly worried about signal integrity. If this doesn?t work to my satisfaction, I?ll probably go to heavier traces and put in some ground planes. I have a PDP-11/40 with 128KW of core. 64KW of that core is in a second BA11F chassis in another rack. I?ll be using that system (running memory diagnostics mostly) to test out the cables. I?ll have to work up some prices but I would expect it to be in the $100-$150 range. I purchased a 100? spool of 60 conductor ribbon cable and was agast at the price. I was originally thinking twisted pair ribbon cable until I saw what 100? spool of that would run and decided to try just the straight ?grey? ribbon cable for now. TTFN - Guy From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 17:26:39 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:26:39 -0700 Subject: HP 9000/380 console? software? (was Re: HP 9000/382 Questions) In-Reply-To: <000c01d15888$80df7620$829e6260$@xs4all.nl> References: <000c01d15888$80df7620$829e6260$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > The manual says you can't use a terminal on the internal serial port. So only HP-UX can run on a headless machine (no keyboard and monitor)? I guess I'll have to find a VGA-to-3-BNC cable. And I'm not sure whether any of my LCD monitors or projector can handle sync-on-green, but I guess I'll find out. My old Nokia 445Xi 20-inch CRT could, but I no longer have it. Worst case, I can build a sync separator board. > You can boot Basic 5.1 or 6.2 from disc, on the hp museum site you can download the images. Thanks! I found Basic 5.1 and Pascal 3.1 there and downloaded them. It would be nice to get newer versions, but as long as those work on the /380 it will be sufficient. Next I need to get an older PC running to use Teledisk. All of my modern PCs don't have a built in floppy drive, and I normally use a USB 3.5" floppy drive, but USB floppies don't support non-PC formats. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 18:59:55 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:59:55 -0800 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56A8168B.6070602@sydex.com> On 01/26/2016 02:48 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I was surprised to learn that the 9895, while it supports standard > IBM 3740 single-density format, uses an HP-proprietary M2FM > double-density format. So did Intel on the MDS. I don't recall if there was any significant difference between Intel and HP MMFM encoding, however. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 19:27:24 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 18:27:24 -0700 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <56A8168B.6070602@sydex.com> References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> <56A8168B.6070602@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/26/2016 02:48 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> I was surprised to learn that the 9895, while it supports standard >> IBM 3740 single-density format, uses an HP-proprietary M2FM >> double-density format. > > > So did Intel on the MDS. I don't recall if there was any significant > difference between Intel and HP MMFM encoding, however. Entirely different. As was DEC RX02. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 20:04:11 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 18:04:11 -0800 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> <56A8168B.6070602@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56A8259B.4000306@sydex.com> On 01/26/2016 05:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Entirely different. As was DEC RX02. You've lost me there. Both HP and Intel were true MMFM; the RX02 was single-density headers and a somewhat modified MFM (probably to avoid false FM address mark triggering on MFM sequences. --Chuck From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Jan 26 21:15:40 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:15:40 -0800 Subject: Mitsubishi Apricot In-Reply-To: References: <004e01d157bf$73ae2e20$5b0a8a60$@net> Message-ID: <003201d158b1$00ef6640$02ce32c0$@net> > I too would love to find a vx but I think the chances of that are none > existent. > Peter, Never say never.... ;) I'd also be happy with an Apricot/Mitsubishi Shogun! LOL! From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Jan 26 21:22:47 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:22:47 -0800 Subject: Mitsubishi Apricot In-Reply-To: References: <004e01d157bf$73ae2e20$5b0a8a60$@net> Message-ID: <003301d158b2$0075d400$01617c00$@net> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Dose anybody know about Mitsubishi Apricots (1990ish)? They are of > >> interest to me as they were the first PC I used and I now have a > few. > >> I'm having issues with getting them to boot from a floppy. Iv done > >> some reading around the subject and from what I understand I need a > >> secure boot floppy. > >> > >> Can anybody help? BTW: have you checked out http://bbs.actapricot.org/files/Bbs.htm -Ali From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 21:48:06 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 20:48:06 -0700 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> Message-ID: Warp 3 requires a 386SX with 4MB at minimum. Connect will work with a 386 and 8 to 12MB RAM, depending on what LAN services you choose to run. Here is a link to an IBM Redbook on the subject, covering all of this in great detail. http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg244552.pdf No version of OS/2 supplied by IBM has an "El Torito" bootable installation disc. LOADDSKF should be able to write the installation floppy and disk 1 as required for all versions of the system. I have never successfully done this on my Sabrent USB floppy, nor any other raw image transfer, due to the controller issues mentioned earlier in this thread. Hope this helps. -- *John P. Willis* Coherent Logic Development LLC M: 575.520.9542 O: 575.524.1034 chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com http://www.coherent-logic.com/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Jan 26 22:50:35 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 20:50:35 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> Message-ID: XDFCOPY.EXE from that BonusPak ISO isn't working on my ImageDisk rig; it says it can't format track 0. I think I'll try reinstalling DOS 6.22 on the PS/2 temporarily to see if I can write out the XDF disks there. Or maybe I'll try PC-DOS 7 if I can find it. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 23:07:50 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 22:07:50 -0700 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <56A8259B.4000306@sydex.com> References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> <56A8168B.6070602@sydex.com> <56A8259B.4000306@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 7:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You've lost me there. Both HP and Intel were true MMFM; There's more to it than the basic channel code. IBM 3740 and Ohio Scientific 8-inch both use "true FM" for the channel code, but they aren't compatible. The HP 9895 M2FM and Intel M2FM may be the same channel code, but the address marks are different, etc. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 23:10:27 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:10:27 -0800 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d101d158c1$098d6990$1ca83cb0$@gmail.com> You make me feel lucky. I have all 3 (almost, I have the low density HP 9121 rather than an HD 9122 so I can use it on my HP 85)... Haven't restored or even powered up the recently acquired HP 9895 yet, but the HP 82901A and the HP 9121D now work great. Quite low capacity (270k?) due to the weird LIF formatting, formats 35 tracks but uses only 33, out of the 40. I wonder why. I don't know anything yet about the 8" HP 9895 and its encoding. I thought they were surprisingly high capacity (1.2 MB?) considering their age. Am I right? Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 2:48 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 7:47 AM, Paul Berger wrote: > I would really > like to get a HP 9895 8" drive but they seem to be few and far between. Same here. And I'd like to get an 82901M 5.25" drive, and a 9122C HD 3.5". I was surprised to learn that the 9895, while it supports standard IBM 3740 single-density format, uses an HP-proprietary M2FM double-density format. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 26 23:20:48 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:20:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <00d101d158c1$098d6990$1ca83cb0$@gmail.com> References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> <00d101d158c1$098d6990$1ca83cb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 2016, CuriousMarc wrote: > You make me feel lucky. I have all 3 (almost, I have the low density HP > 9121 rather than an HD 9122 so I can use it on my HP 85)... Haven't > restored or even powered up the recently acquired HP 9895 yet, but the > HP 82901A and the HP 9121D now work great. Quite low capacity (270k?) > due to the weird LIF formatting, formats 35 tracks but uses only 33, out > of the 40. I wonder why. Partially because the original 5.25" drives (Shugart SA400) were 35 track (#0 - #34), not 40. Single sided single density was about 100K. Double sided double density could be up to 400K, with 360K being typical. > I don't know anything yet about the 8" HP 9895 > and its encoding. I thought they were surprisingly high capacity (1.2 > MB?) considering their age. Am I right? 8" double sided double denwsity is, indeed 1.2M or thereabouts, varying by format choices. 5.25" "high" density mimics 8". One company, NEC, made their 5.25" "high density" format the same as their 8" format, and even ran their 3.5" drives at 360RPM, instead of the more common 300RPM, so that they could have the same format on those, also. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jan 26 17:26:55 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:26:55 -0800 Subject: BC11A paddle boards In-Reply-To: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com> References: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: My memories of a bloody back of hands are coming back. We did the same with grant cards. Made a bacth of longer ones, and then updated again by going three wide, the 3rd just for stability. Remember the DEC FE seeing them one day, made him very happy by giving him a few of them. -pete On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I just received the first of the BC11A paddle boards (so that I can now > create my own BC11A cables). I made two variants of the boards. One where > the cables come out the ?top? and another where the cables come out the > ?side? (so you don?t have to ?fold? the cable in a number of different > applications such as RK05s). > > The ones that arrived today are the S or ?side? variation (as opposed to > the T or ?top? variation). I immediately noticed (why I didn?t see this > when I was reviewing the board layout previously I?ll never know) is that > one of the cable connectors is too close to the edge. It wouldn?t be a > problem except that I chose to use connectors that have cable retention > latches. The latches protrude from the board edge by ~0.02?. So once I > verify that these work, I?ll move the one connector inward ~0.5?. I have > plenty of space, I just don?t know why I put the connector that close to > the edge. *sigh*. For these boards, I?ll probably just file the latch > down a bit to get the appropriate clearance. > > BTW, trying to get the connectors onto the board (I haven?t soldered them > in yet) was tight. That?s the problem with trying to get 60 pins to all > line up correctly. But they fit and are *snug*. I probably won?t go and > do any testing until I get the other boards in so it may be a couple more > weeks (the boards weren?t supposed to *ship* before 2/8). > > For those who?d like to know, I probably will not be making a production > run of these boards unless I get a *lot* of interest (100 boards or so). > If you want some, let me know and if I get enough interest, I?ll do a > production run. > > TTFN - Guy > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 27 00:07:40 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 22:07:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> <00d101d158c1$098d6990$1ca83cb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> 82901A and the HP 9121D now work great. Quite low capacity (270k?) due to >> the weird LIF formatting, formats 35 tracks but uses only 33, out of the >> 40. I wonder why. > Partially because the original 5.25" drives (Shugart SA400) were 35 track (#0 > - #34), not 40. I don't even remember, . . . Does LIF also reserve some space for substitution for bad sectors? (there were a higher percentage in those days) From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jan 27 00:18:24 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 22:18:24 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> Message-ID: That XDFCOPY.EXE from the BonusPak ISO also has the same issue under MS-DOS 6.22 on the PS/2. However, I got an OS/2 prompt from the first two floppies of the OS/2 Warp Connect 3.0 set (which are regular 1.44M floppies), and then I can CD to the DOS 6.22 HD and use that XDFCOPY.EXE to write the images. Yay! This is like a text adventure. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Jan 27 01:02:03 2016 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 08:02:03 +0100 Subject: Terminal Emulation for Windows - supporting Kermit File Transfer In-Reply-To: <56A74ACF.8050505@yahoo.de> References: <20160125195828.Horde.fEDkDTeawXBipK7WMTd_mNY@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56A74ACF.8050505@yahoo.de> Message-ID: <20160127080203.Horde.CP2ghr1KjR57xNQBocLrz7P@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi Chris, Christian Groessler wrote: > On 01/25/16 19:58, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> c) >> Mapping my Windows COM-Port to a FreeBSD Oracle VirtualBox VM seems >> to work, but I'm not able to send CTRL + \ + C via Putty to the VM >> to get back from my serial connection to Kermit to terminate it > > > You could set the escape char to something else (which you are able > to type).... Yeah - I found out that it is the german keyboard layout which makes PuTTY nervous. AltrGr (to get the backslash) and Ctrl together is not "supported" with PuTTY. Switching to US keyboard layout works. But yes - I could change the Kermit configuration too ;) From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 27 01:10:09 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 08:10:09 +0100 Subject: HP 9000/380 console? software? (was Re: HP 9000/382 Questions) In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d15888$80df7620$829e6260$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Eric, Basic 6.2 is also on the site and can be run from flop. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Eric Smith" Verzonden: ?27-?1-?2016 00:27 Aan: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Onderwerp: Re: HP 9000/380 console? software? (was Re: HP 9000/382 Questions) On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > The manual says you can't use a terminal on the internal serial port. So only HP-UX can run on a headless machine (no keyboard and monitor)? I guess I'll have to find a VGA-to-3-BNC cable. And I'm not sure whether any of my LCD monitors or projector can handle sync-on-green, but I guess I'll find out. My old Nokia 445Xi 20-inch CRT could, but I no longer have it. Worst case, I can build a sync separator board. > You can boot Basic 5.1 or 6.2 from disc, on the hp museum site you can download the images. Thanks! I found Basic 5.1 and Pascal 3.1 there and downloaded them. It would be nice to get newer versions, but as long as those work on the /380 it will be sufficient. Next I need to get an older PC running to use Teledisk. All of my modern PCs don't have a built in floppy drive, and I normally use a USB 3.5" floppy drive, but USB floppies don't support non-PC formats. From pchatt30 at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 01:46:29 2016 From: pchatt30 at gmail.com (Peter Chatt) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 07:46:29 +0000 Subject: Mitsubishi Apricot In-Reply-To: <003301d158b2$0075d400$01617c00$@net> References: <004e01d157bf$73ae2e20$5b0a8a60$@net> <003301d158b2$0075d400$01617c00$@net> Message-ID: Yes, been through it with a fine "tooth comb". Tried all the boot disks, and boot disk creators, utility disks. Well the ones related to the LANstations. Peter On 27 Jan 2016, at 03:22, Ali wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Dose anybody know about Mitsubishi Apricots (1990ish)? They are of >>>> interest to me as they were the first PC I used and I now have a >> few. >>>> I'm having issues with getting them to boot from a floppy. Iv done >>>> some reading around the subject and from what I understand I need a >>>> secure boot floppy. >>>> >>>> Can anybody help? > > BTW: have you checked out http://bbs.actapricot.org/files/Bbs.htm > > -Ali > From rodsmallwood at btinternet.com Wed Jan 27 03:16:25 2016 From: rodsmallwood at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 09:16:25 +0000 Subject: email problems Message-ID: <56A88AE9.5090400@btinternet.com> Hi If you have sent me an off list email in the last couple of days and have not got a response. - Apologies It seems I am loosing some but not all inbound email - ISP trying to fix it Rod Smallwood From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 27 03:51:12 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:51:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <56A8168B.6070602@sydex.com> References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> <56A8168B.6070602@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So did Intel on the MDS. I don't recall if there was any significant > difference between Intel and HP MMFM encoding, however. The initial CRC value ($0000 vs. $FFFF) and the header (six vs. four bytes) are different, but the encoding was quite identical. The Intel header format was similar (or even the same) as the "standard" soft-sectored formats (i.e. with head and sector length bytes). The HP format knows only single-sided floppies with up to 32 sectors (0 to 31). The address mark bytes are different, too. Christian From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 07:39:39 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 14:39:39 +0100 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <60BB93EF-8C7C-4BA3-82B7-4BCF24623AE3@nf6x.net> References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <60BB93EF-8C7C-4BA3-82B7-4BCF24623AE3@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 26 January 2016 at 17:24, Mark J. Blair wrote: > That site looks a bit more challenging for an English-only speaker. :) Maybe google translate can help me find my way around... yeah, much better now. Thanks for the links! Yes, it certainly is. I live in the Czech Republic, but I don't speak Czech worth a damn -- but between that and rudimentary Cyrillic reading ability, I can handle a little very basic Russian. That site's still too much for me, but Google Chrome and Google Translate make it navigable. I don't normally recommend such things, but for decades-old releases of an OS, Bittorrent can be your friend, too. E.g. https://thepiratebay.se/search/ibm%20os%202/0/99/300 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 07:42:58 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 14:42:58 +0100 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 27 January 2016 at 07:18, Mark J. Blair wrote: > That XDFCOPY.EXE from the BonusPak ISO also has the same issue under MS-DOS 6.22 on the PS/2. However, I got an OS/2 prompt from the first two floppies of the OS/2 Warp Connect 3.0 set (which are regular 1.44M floppies), and then I can CD to the DOS 6.22 HD and use that XDFCOPY.EXE to write the images. Yay! > > This is like a text adventure. :-D Yes, it is a bit, isn't it? I actually bought OS/2 with my own money. I was always extremely averse to doing that. It was good for its time, but NT 3.x was technically superior, just lacking in the UI department. Win95 brought a better UI. NT 4 combined them and Windows 2000 brought them together -- NT with Plug&play, power management etc. I don't like to have to say it, but Windows was better than OS/2. And Windows drove the rest of the industry onwards, to better it. Which, now, with Ubuntu and RHEL and Mac OS X and iOS and Android, it has, I reckon. Today there is eComStation. I have review copies but I've never got it 100% working. I may need to dedicate a machine to it. :?( I miss OS/2, just as something genuinely /different/ in the greater DOS family -- but really, NT was better in almost every way. Less flexible by far, but also far more polished and stable. (E.g. I could reliably kernel-trap an OS/2 machine with Fractint, one of my favourite apps.) But trying the modern version today brings the bad memories flooding back, I'm afraid... Of multi-thousand-line CONFIG.SYS files, of juggling drivers (PATA versus SATA today, for example), of patchy or missing hardware support etc. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 27 08:07:50 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 09:07:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: BC11A paddle boards Message-ID: <20160127140750.C1BE418C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor > I was originally thinking twisted pair ribbon cable until I saw what > 100' spool of that would run and decided to try just the straight > "grey" ribbon cable for now. That should be fine; the DEC M9042 board (basically equivalent) used three H854 flat cables, see: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/XD149.80 The DEC board makes every other conductor in the flat cable a ground; not quite as good as twisted pair, but close. > I probably will not be making a production run of these boards unless I > get a *lot* of interest (100 boards or so). If you want some, let me > know I would definitely be interested in some (how many exactly would depend on the price). Noel From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 08:27:38 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 09:27:38 -0500 Subject: BC11A paddle boards In-Reply-To: <20160127140750.C1BE418C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160127140750.C1BE418C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0b5b01d1590e$e0228d30$a067a790$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:08 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: BC11A paddle boards > From: Guy Sotomayor > I was originally thinking twisted pair ribbon cable until I saw what > 100' spool of that would run and decided to try just the straight > "grey" ribbon cable for now. That should be fine; the DEC M9042 board (basically equivalent) used three H854 flat cables, see: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/XD149.80 The DEC board makes every other conductor in the flat cable a ground; not quite as good as twisted pair, but close. > I probably will not be making a production run of these boards unless I > get a *lot* of interest (100 boards or so). If you want some, let me > know I would definitely be interested in some (how many exactly would depend on the price). Noel ----- Looks like the ribbon cables there are foam-separated-and-bundled, rather like a BC11 cables. What are folks using for foam-replacement when they rehabilitate existing BC11 cables? I also would be interested in some (how many pairs exactly would depend on the price, for me as well). ----- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 09:06:40 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 15:06:40 +0000 Subject: BC11A paddle boards In-Reply-To: References: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com>, Message-ID: > > Considering DEC did something like this for the DWBUA, but with 4 > 30-pin cables (by necessity because of the BI backplane), is 2x60 pins DEC (also?) made a board that brought the Unibus out on 3 40-way cahles. The 11/730 I am restoring originally had a Unibus expansion cabinet, and the arrangement was a board in the Unibus Out slot of the CPU with 3 off 40 pin Berg connectors on it (and nothng else). Then 3 cables (40 pin socket on each end) to a bulkhead panel with 3 40 way headers on it. That took a special screened cable with 3 40 way ribbon cables inside to another identical bulkhead, then 3 more cables to another PCB (different M-number, so perhaps there were connection differences) in the Unibus In of the expansion cabinet. I have removed that from my 11/730 as I just want a single-cabinet system, but of course have kept all of it. Didn't we have a thread on this a few months back? > more cost-effective than 4x30? Mostly, I'm curious about how much > 60-pin ends cost and the difference in cost between 2 lengths of Practically, I would not want to use 60 way connectors and cable. They are not as easy to get as the 40 way ones. [I've never seen a 30 way IDC socket. 34 way are common of course.] -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 09:48:58 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:48:58 -0500 Subject: BC11A paddle boards In-Reply-To: References: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 10:06 AM, tony duell wrote: > DEC (also?) made a board that brought the Unibus out on 3 40-way > cahles. I don't know that I've seen that exact one, but it sounds like something they would have done. > I have removed that from my 11/730 as I just want a single-cabinet system, > but of course have kept all of it. > Didn't we have a thread on this a few months back? Perhaps, but I don't remember if it was related toGuy's paddle boards or just general kicking around of "how do I get "new" BC11A cables?" >> more cost-effective than 4x30? Mostly, I'm curious about how much >> 60-pin ends cost and the difference in cost between 2 lengths of > > Practically, I would not want to use 60 way connectors and cable. They are > not as easy to get as the 40 way ones. I just did some pricing and 60-way cable is a touch pricey. Through cable surplus vendors, I saw one quote of $1.33/ft and from the same vendor, prices close to $0.30/ft for 28-34-way (you need twice as many feet, of course, but it's still half the cost. Not a big deal for one 10' run, but trying to cable up 4 RK05s, for example, it would start to add up). 3x 40-way wouldn't be too bad, if designing from scratch (I totally get the design goal of a simple double-sided paddle card to simplify the construction of that - I'm not complaining about Guy's design, just investigating costs for different methods. For just one pair of paddle cards and one set of cables, the differences aren't going to be enough to matter. Wanting/needing multiples for multiple systems or drives might start to tip the balance). > [I've never seen a 30 way IDC socket. 34 way are common of course.] I'd have to check the paddle card with my DWBUA, but I'm pretty sure the cables are 30-pin to 30-pin, not 30-pin to 34-pin (the VAXBI backplane is studded in 30-pin keyed connector spots (6 per backplane slot) and are the only way to get signals to/from BI options. We made a COMBOARD VAXBI (only sold a handful - too late in the game to matter) and took two 30-pin cables out to our I/O bulkhead dual EIA connector plate. The DWBUA has 4x 30-pin cables to get Unibus from the BI board to the paddle card in the DD11DK. They certainly aren't common. I only mentioned them because I've seen it done. 3x40-way is probably more sensible since 40-pin parts and cable were once incredibly common. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 27 10:49:33 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 08:49:33 -0800 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> <56A8168B.6070602@sydex.com> <56A8259B.4000306@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56A8F51D.40106@sydex.com> On 01/26/2016 09:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 7:04 PM, Chuck Guzis > wrote: >> You've lost me there. Both HP and Intel were true MMFM; > > There's more to it than the basic channel code. > > IBM 3740 and Ohio Scientific 8-inch both use "true FM" for the > channel code, but they aren't compatible. > > The HP 9895 M2FM and Intel M2FM may be the same channel code, but > the address marks are different, etc. That's exactly what I was asking. But you implied that the RX02 was MMFM, which, in my experience is not the case. MFM is a (1,3) RLL code; MMFM is a (1,4) code. AFAIK, RX02 is a combination of (0,1) for headers and (1,3) for data. WHat the decoded clock and data bits actually mean is a separate issue. --Chuck From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 11:24:04 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 12:24:04 -0500 Subject: M. Minsky - AI & Classic Computing Message-ID: I learned today of the passing of a true computing visionary, Marvin Minsky He of artificial intelligence fame. We in the classic computing fraternity, and computing in general, can enjoy our ?hobby? because of his work. Happy computing Murray :) From js at cimmeri.com Wed Jan 27 11:38:24 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 12:38:24 -0500 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> On 1/27/2016 8:42 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > I actually bought OS/2 with my own money. I was always extremely > averse to doing that. > > It was good for its time, but NT 3.x was technically superior, just > lacking in the UI department. Correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly (probably am), but wasn't NT a descendent of DEC VMS? - J. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 27 11:51:59 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 12:51:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <201601271751.MAA16064@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly (probably am), but wasn't > NT a descendent of DEC VMS? As I understand it - an important caveat here - Windows NT was to some extent a conceptual descendent of VMS, but that was more because the same person was instrumental in designing both than because there was an explicit inheritance relationship. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 12:14:26 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 11:14:26 -0700 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <201601271751.MAA16064@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> <201601271751.MAA16064@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > > > Correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly (probably am), but wasn't > > NT a descendent of DEC VMS? > > As I understand it - an important caveat here - Windows NT was to some > extent a conceptual descendent of VMS, but that was more because the > same person was instrumental in designing both than because there was > an explicit inheritance relationship. > > That would be Dave Cutler. You can see his philosophy clearly in both systems. And he had little respect for Gordon Letwin and the OS/2 architecture, and open disdain for UNIX and its underlying stream-of-bytes, everything-is-a-file, everything-is-plaintext philosophy. IMO, NT offers a better kernel than OS/2, but nothing has ever matched the elegance and sheer power of the Workplace Shell as a graphical abstraction. Windows overall suffers from layers upon layers of ill-conceived backwards compatibility hacks and Microsoft's inability to settle on one API, as well as horrendously weak versioning of shared libraries (the Component Object Model is a nightmare). IUnknown, anyone? From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jan 27 12:31:16 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:31:16 -0800 Subject: BC11A paddle boards In-Reply-To: References: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <16E25A51-2268-4C61-9775-A14442BE719B@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:48 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>> >> >> Practically, I would not want to use 60 way connectors and cable. They are >> not as easy to get as the 40 way ones. > > I just did some pricing and 60-way cable is a touch pricey. Through > cable surplus vendors, I saw one quote of $1.33/ft and from the same > vendor, prices close to $0.30/ft for 28-34-way (you need twice as many > feet, of course, but it's still half the cost. Not a big deal for one > 10' run, but trying to cable up 4 RK05s, for example, it would start > to add up). 3x 40-way wouldn't be too bad, if designing from scratch > (I totally get the design goal of a simple double-sided paddle card to > simplify the construction of that - I'm not complaining about Guy's > design, just investigating costs for different methods. For just one > pair of paddle cards and one set of cables, the differences aren't > going to be enough to matter. Wanting/needing multiples for multiple > systems or drives might start to tip the balance). > I just ran some numbers (Digikey*, so YMMV) and here?s what I came up with: 60 pin connectors (PCB & cable ends): $46.60 4 PCB connectors 8 cable connectors 2 10? 60 conductor cable: $42.12 40 pin connectors (PCB & cable ends): $50.46 6 PCB connectors 12 cable connectors 3 10? 40 conductor cable: $45.30 I believe when I started these, I looked at both. Given that the 60 pin solution is marginally cheaper (going with new parts which if I?m selling that?s what I use) and results in fewer connectors (and was simpler to route). Note, that *if* I do end up selling the paddle boards, I?ll sell just the boards and the connectors on the boards. I will *not* be selling the cable itself (nor the cable connectors). As you can see from the above, any solution is going to be expensive. This does not include the boards (since the price for either solution is the same). I just wanted to illustrate the comparison between 60 and 40 pin cables. TTFN - Guy * - I used the same family of connectors for both (from 3M). The only difference was the total number of pins (60 vs 40). This wasn?t the most expensive solution either and was pretty close to the cheapest as I recall but I this is what I?m using for my ?prototype? run and will probably investigate more fully if/when I do a production run (of course if folks want just the bare boards they?re free to ?do their own thing?). From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 27 12:43:08 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:43:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <201601271751.MAA16064@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> <201601271751.MAA16064@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: >> Correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly (probably am), but wasn't >> NT a descendent of DEC VMS? On Wed, 27 Jan 2016, Mouse wrote: > As I understand it - an important caveat here - Windows NT was to some > extent a conceptual descendent of VMS, but that was more because the > same person was instrumental in designing both than because there was > an explicit inheritance relationship. Dave Cutler? It also, of course, used a lot of Gordon Letwin's OS/2 code. From js at cimmeri.com Wed Jan 27 12:47:58 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 13:47:58 -0500 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> <201601271751.MAA16064@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <56A910DE.1090709@cimmeri.com> On 1/27/2016 1:14 PM, John Willis wrote: >>> Correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly (probably am), but wasn't >>> NT a descendent of DEC VMS? >> As I understand it - an important caveat here - Windows NT was to some >> extent a conceptual descendent of VMS, but that was more because the >> same person was instrumental in designing both than because there was >> an explicit inheritance relationship. > That would be Dave Cutler. You can see his philosophy clearly in both > systems. And he had little respect for Gordon Letwin and the OS/2 architecture, and open disdain for UNIX and its underlying stream-of-bytes, everything-is-a-file, everything-is-plaintext philosophy. IMO, NT offers a better kernel than OS/2, but nothing has ever matched the elegance and sheer power of the Workplace Shell as a graphical abstraction. In relation to that, here's something interesting: http://toastytech.com/guis/wps.html - J. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 13:03:03 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 14:03:03 -0500 Subject: BC11A paddle boards In-Reply-To: <16E25A51-2268-4C61-9775-A14442BE719B@shiresoft.com> References: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com> <16E25A51-2268-4C61-9775-A14442BE719B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:48 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I just did some pricing and 60-way cable is a touch pricey. Through >> cable surplus vendors, I saw one quote of $1.33/ft... > > I just ran some numbers (Digikey*, so YMMV) and here?s what I came > up with... No arguments about the Digikey pricing. I'm not shocked it comes out that high. I get needing to price new parts from reliable vendors, but as a consumer of kit items, I frequently hit my own junk boxes (I have a lot of cable supplies) and definitely hit surplus vendors. In the "real world" for the last run of COMBOARDs, I got the cost down 25% by not ordering certain parts (RAM, CPU...) from Digikey/Mouser/Allied, etc. OK for a sunset build, but not for a new product. > Note, that *if* I do end up selling the paddle boards, I?ll sell just the > boards and the connectors on the boards. I will *not* be selling the > cable itself (nor the cable connectors). Sure. > As you can see from the above, any solution is going to be expensive. > This does not include the boards (since the price for either solution is > the same). I just wanted to illustrate the comparison between 60 and > 40 pin cables. I see the numbers from Digikey and, yeah... quite a bit for those endpoints, no matter which configuration. > ...this is what I?m using for my ?prototype? run and will > probably investigate more fully if/when I do a production run (of course > if folks want just the bare boards they?re free to ?do their own thing?). If you do bare boards (no connectors), I'd probably be interested in several sets. If you need to supply board connectors to keep your volume up, I'll probably still be interested but perhaps not quite as many sets. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jan 27 13:13:38 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 11:13:38 -0800 Subject: BC11A paddle boards In-Reply-To: References: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com> <16E25A51-2268-4C61-9775-A14442BE719B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <95593BCD-B3B4-4232-9301-EAD61017616F@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 27, 2016, at 11:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If you do bare boards (no connectors), I'd probably be interested in > several sets. If you need to supply board connectors to keep your > volume up, I'll probably still be interested but perhaps not quite as > many sets. > I offer parts kits as a convenience not as a requirement. The big costs are just getting the number of boards up. Of course when I start producing products that are SMD with pre-programmed parts (ie MEM11A), those will be fully assembled and tested just because I don?t want to handle the support issues and component choice variations as well as I?ll have the boards assembled before they get to me. TTFN - Guy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 13:48:34 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 14:48:34 -0500 Subject: BC11A paddle boards In-Reply-To: <95593BCD-B3B4-4232-9301-EAD61017616F@shiresoft.com> References: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com> <16E25A51-2268-4C61-9775-A14442BE719B@shiresoft.com> <95593BCD-B3B4-4232-9301-EAD61017616F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 2:13 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 11:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> If you do bare boards (no connectors), I'd probably be interested in >> several sets. > > I offer parts kits as a convenience not as a requirement. The big costs > are just getting the number of boards up. Sure. I just didn't assume because some kits are priced around volume orders of PCB+parts and it screws with the inventory to sell bare boards. I'm usually happiest to buy bare board kits or board+weird parts. > Of course when I start producing products that are SMD with pre-programmed > parts (ie MEM11A), those will be fully assembled and tested just because I > don?t want to handle the support issues and component choice variations as > well as I?ll have the boards assembled before they get to me. Sure. I've been on the support end of selling through-hole kits, but I wouldn't want to have to support SMD kits. I have bought and assembled many kits with SMD parts and have enjoyed success, but not everyone's builds go smoothly (and even I've had to occasionally fix my own screwups). And I'm still interested in at least one MEM11A when it gets to that. I have this 11/20 that needs some stuffing. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jan 27 14:03:44 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 12:03:44 -0800 Subject: BC11A paddle boards In-Reply-To: References: <0B19D875-4EA1-4D9F-BFCC-71C3B0E64972@shiresoft.com> <16E25A51-2268-4C61-9775-A14442BE719B@shiresoft.com> <95593BCD-B3B4-4232-9301-EAD61017616F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <7ABDE8B1-F66D-4251-A45A-27FECB08D70C@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 27, 2016, at 11:48 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Sure. I've been on the support end of selling through-hole kits, but > I wouldn't want to have to support SMD kits. I have bought and > assembled many kits with SMD parts and have enjoyed success, but not > everyone's builds go smoothly (and even I've had to occasionally fix > my own screwups). > > And I'm still interested in at least one MEM11A when it gets to that. > I have this 11/20 that needs some stuffing. > My current plan re:MEM11A is that I?m going to build a prototype using an FPGA eval board that I already have. It has a 100pin Hirose connector on it that brings out a bunch of I/Os. The ?prototype? board will contain all of the ?other? components (FRAM, UARTs, Unibus I/F, etc) that don?t exist on the eval board. It will strictly be a bench setup. This is also why I did the paddle boards?I need a way to get from the prototype to the Unibus. ;-) BTW, I?ve been spending my evenings recently re-writing the simulator in C to get the functionality that I need to complete the rest of the testing and coding of the uCode. I?ve also started writing verilog for the various parts on the prototype board. I?m using CPLDs at present but it?s not clear that with the partitioning I have, that it?ll all fit (right now I have stuff partitioned into 3 CPLDs just for I/O count). I?m planning that most of what I do for the prototype board will translate over to the real board so I won?t have to end up re-writing a lot of code (either the J1 uCode or verilog) but I expect that there will be some differences mainly around how things are packaged between FPGA and CPLD(s). TTFN - Guy From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 16:00:47 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 16:00:47 -0600 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> <201601271751.MAA16064@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:14 PM, John Willis wrote: > everything-is-plaintext philosophy. IMO, NT offers a better kernel than > OS/2, > but nothing has ever matched the elegance and sheer power of the Workplace > Shell as a graphical abstraction. > Hmmm... agree to disagree I guess. I generally found the Workplace shell in OS/2 a bit cumbersome and maddening compared to a lot of the GUI alternatives. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 16:07:05 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 15:07:05 -0700 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <56A8F51D.40106@sydex.com> References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> <56A8168B.6070602@sydex.com> <56A8259B.4000306@sydex.com> <56A8F51D.40106@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's exactly what I was asking. But you implied that the RX02 was MMFM, > which, in my experience is not the case. The double-density RX02 data fields are in a modifed MFM, which is what M2FM or MMFM stands for. It doesn't use the same encoding rules as are most commonly used for M2FM, though. DEC's M2FM uses the same encoding as MFM except for the case of a run of exactly four consecutive one bits. data: 011110 MFM encoded: DCDCDCDCDCD 00101010100 DEC M2FM encoded: DCDCDCDCDCD 01000100010 DEC claimed that this was done because using normal MFM encoding, the data field could contain a pattern that matches a preample fllowed by an ID mark. I am dubious of that claim; I did an exhaustive search and was unable to find any sequence of data bits which, MFM-encoded, would match any of the RX02 mark patterns (standard 3740 patterns for index, ID, single-density data, and single-density deleted data, and non-standard patterns for double-density data and double-density deleted data). From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 16:09:41 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 15:09:41 -0700 Subject: HP 9000/380 console? software? (was Re: HP 9000/382 Questions) In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d15888$80df7620$829e6260$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > Basic 6.2 is also on the site and can be run from flop. I was only able to find a download for BASIC 6.2 for the "Measurement Coprocessor" for the AT bus, which required its own special version, not compatible with normal Series 200/300. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 27 17:06:05 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 15:06:05 -0800 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> <56A8168B.6070602@sydex.com> <56A8259B.4000306@sydex.com> <56A8F51D.40106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56A94D5D.9090404@sydex.com> On 01/27/2016 02:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > The double-density RX02 data fields are in a modifed MFM, which is > what M2FM or MMFM stands for. It doesn't use the same encoding > rules as are most commonly used for M2FM, though. ...and that was exactly my objection. This becomes a case of the Monty Python "Basingstoke in Westphalia" and "our Cole Porter". The RX02 MFM (and I believe I touched on the rationale) may be "modified MFM", but it's not modified in the standard (1,4) RLL encoding that the rest of the world uses/used. I can conceivably change a couple of encodings for FM, but that doesn't make it MFM. For example, not allowing 4 consecutive clock and data 1 bits in a row (I could, for example, leave out a clock bit.). Come to think of it, that's exactly what standard IBM 3740 address marks do, but nobody calls that "MFM". If you insist that the 3740 format *defines* FM, then you're leaving out a lot of recording formats that use (0,1) RLL, but not 3740 conventions. Honestly, you DEC guys need to get out more. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 27 21:07:51 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 21:07:51 -0600 Subject: M. Minsky - AI & Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56A98607.6060805@pico-systems.com> On 01/27/2016 11:24 AM, Murray McCullough wrote: > I learned today of the passing of a true computing visionary, Marvin > Minsky He of artificial intelligence fame. We in the classic computing > fraternity, and computing in general, can enjoy our ?hobby? because of > his work. > > Yup, sad day! Jon From ball.of.john at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 00:16:47 2016 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 22:16:47 -0800 Subject: HP 9845 Option ROMs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So in the past few weeks I've been playing with my latest aquisition, an HP 9845A that's been upgraded at some point to a 9845B. The filter caps for the PSU are in the mail still and I have yet to actually see the system turn on so I've been working on other projects in the meantime like cleaning the machine, troubleshooting faults in the floppy drives it came with and sourcing a food dehydrator to bake the tapes it unexpectedly came with. It's a fairly basic machine without the internal printer or second tape drive. Only the I/O, graphics and Mass Storage ROMs are installed and there's at least one other option ROM module not accounted for according to one of the manuals that came with. In fact it seems the option ROMs aren't common to begin with or at least they are not cheap on ebay. I seem to remember a few years ago someone out further West than I am who also had a 45 discussed some sort of ROM board that acted like the PRM-85 ROM board for the HP 85 and let you load whatever ROMs you wanted onto a modern EPROM and do away with HP's silly modules completely however my memory is fuzzy and I can't seem to find any mention of such a device on the internet. What I did find was the System ROM replacement board on hp9845.net but it doesn't mention the ability to add in images of the option ROMs he has available on his site. Anyone else heard of this mysterious adapter? -John From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Jan 28 00:29:28 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 22:29:28 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> <201601271751.MAA16064@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <28BD643F-451C-4D5D-ACB1-02CA713BDA73@nf6x.net> I finally managed to get OS/2 Warp Connect 3.0 installed after a few tries. I think that messing with the SCSI2SD settings fixed things. My best guess is that with the default settings the BIOS code could access the drive, but once OS/2 switched over to its own drivers part way through the install, the wheels came off. I tried enabling the touch display, and it kind of works. Calibration is way off; I saw something that looked like a calibration program flashing by during the driver installation, but I got frustrated doing things with a dodgy and uncalibrated screen before finding it. Switching between touch screen and mouse involved a reboot (at least the way I found to do it), and when I switched to the touch screen, the mouse quit working even though it's daisy chained through the monitor. There may be some better way to configure it that I haven't found yet. Anyway, now that it's working, I guess I can put it all on a shelf! :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Jan 28 01:04:54 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 23:04:54 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <28BD643F-451C-4D5D-ACB1-02CA713BDA73@nf6x.net> References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> <201601271751.MAA16064@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <28BD643F-451C-4D5D-ACB1-02CA713BDA73@nf6x.net> Message-ID: I tried the touch screen again. This time the mouse remained working, and it's kind of usable-ish after running the CALIBRAT.EXE utility. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From john.h.blake at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 00:52:06 2016 From: john.h.blake at gmail.com (John Blake) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 01:52:06 -0500 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? Message-ID: <56A9BA96.6030505@gmail.com> Vetusware is highly unreliable and tries to charge for accounts, which isn't worth it at all because most of the things I've gotten from there haven't worked. Try: https://winworldpc.com/library Their images are tested, I've used the OS/2 Warp 4 images to install on an old thinkpad 760. I'd also suggest you try some other OSes, Nextstep 3.3 should work (and may have network drivers), as well as Unixware, GEM (on top of DOS), and possibly even AT&T SVR4 or one of the later Xenix variants. If you do decide to go with OS/2, you should also be able to find native applications and development tools there too. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 06:55:48 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 13:55:48 +0100 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> <201601271751.MAA16064@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 27 January 2016 at 23:00, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > Hmmm... agree to disagree I guess. I generally found the Workplace shell in > OS/2 a bit cumbersome and maddening compared to a lot of the GUI > alternatives. I have to agree. Classic MacOS, particularly in MacOS 8 and 9, was perhaps the most polished GUI I've ever used. I also retain great fondness for Acorn's RISC OS desktop, with its unusual and distinctive elegance: * "maximise" only makes a window as big as it needs to be to show all icons without scrolling * drag-and-drop file saving -- no need for a directory browser in the dialog * the first GUI with anti-aliasing & full-window moving & resizing (as opposed to outlines) * the first Icon Bar, before even the NeXT Dock, AFAIK WPS was impressively powerful and had an impressive design, but the actual implementation was a bit patchy and clunky. Sorry to have to say it, but I found the Windows 9x Explorer more actual /use./ The idea of the Start menu, implemented as a directory of directories, was *inspired*. Shortcuts are clunky but they work -- if the implementation had originated on NT and NTFS, it would have worked better. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 07:01:05 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 14:01:05 +0100 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 27 January 2016 at 18:38, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly (probably am), but wasn't NT a > descendent of DEC VMS? Oversimplifying freely: DEC OS team lead Dave Cutler wanted to take VAX/VMS multi-platform. DEC rejected this. So he allowed himself and his core team leads to be headhunted by Microsoft. Microsoft had recently fallen out with IBM over OS/2. OS/2 1.x was a joint MS/IBM development. IBM kept the 80386 version, OS/2 2.x. MS got the portable, CPU-independent version, OS/2 3.x, which was barely more than a skeleton draft at that point. MS hired Cutler and gave him the OS/2 3 project. Cutler & his team retained some of it, but redid a lot, reusing ideas, concepts and even filenames from VMS -- but no code, obviously. The result was named "Windows NT". Entertainingly, WNT is what you get if you shift the letters of 'VMS" 1 position forward in the alphabet. Actually, though, it was developed on multiple CPU platforms, and one was an in-house board design based around Intel's RISC chip, the i860 -- codenamed the N10. NT allegedly stood for "N Ten" before MS marketing retconned it to "New Technology". -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Jan 28 07:19:43 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 14:19:43 +0100 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <56A9BA96.6030505@gmail.com> References: <56A9BA96.6030505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1453987183.421.0.camel@agj.net> tor 2016-01-28 klockan 01:52 -0500 skrev John Blake: > Vetusware is highly unreliable and tries to charge for accounts, which > isn't worth it at all because most of the things I've gotten from there > haven't worked. Try: https://winworldpc.com/library > > Their images are tested, I've used the OS/2 Warp 4 images to install on > an old thinkpad 760. I'd also suggest you try some other OSes, Nextstep > 3.3 should work (and may have network drivers), as well as Unixware, GEM > (on top of DOS), and possibly even AT&T SVR4 or one of the later Xenix > variants. If you do decide to go with OS/2, you should also be able to > find native applications and development tools there too. > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > AIX 1 ? From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Jan 28 07:49:36 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 14:49:36 +0100 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1453988976.421.4.camel@agj.net> ons 2016-01-27 klockan 14:42 +0100 skrev Liam Proven: > But trying the modern version today brings the bad memories flooding > back, I'm afraid... Of multi-thousand-line CONFIG.SYS files, of > juggling drivers (PATA versus SATA today, for example), of patchy or > missing hardware support etc. > The previous evening i tried to install vmware esxi 5.5 on an Lenovo Thinkserver (ts140.) An exercise in futility trying to install stock esx 5.5 on that thing (it needs an patched install image of esxi if its inbuilt ethernet is to work and then it is the question about that software raid which it has.) ESX doesnt like software raid :-) ESXi 6 went without an hitch. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Jan 28 07:57:51 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 14:57:51 +0100 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <1453989471.421.9.camel@agj.net> tor 2016-01-28 klockan 14:01 +0100 skrev Liam Proven: > The result was named "Windows NT". > > Entertainingly, WNT is what you get if you shift the letters of 'VMS" > 1 position forward in the alphabet. > > Actually, though, it was developed on multiple CPU platforms, and one > was an in-house board design based around Intel's RISC chip, the i860 > -- codenamed the N10. NT allegedly stood for "N Ten" before MS > marketing retconned it to "New Technology". > IS the multiplatform aspect one of the reason why the kernel as such worked so well ? 12 years ago the Gtk/GNOME hackers had a heated discussion about portability to SPARC64. I can't help thinking that if they had done the work at that time with regards to 64bitness and threading the stack today would work much better in current multicore amd64 cpus. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 28 10:41:14 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 08:41:14 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <1453989471.421.9.camel@agj.net> References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> <1453989471.421.9.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <56AA44AA.5010902@bitsavers.org> > IS the multiplatform aspect one of the reason why the kernel as such > worked so well ? It was designed by a crew of ex DEC people who knew WTF they were doing after having built a couple of kernels from the ground up. They did quite well for themselves as a result of being in the right place at the right time. The rest of the system is the result of the project management cluster fsck that is MSFT. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 28 10:44:44 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:44:44 -0500 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA gard drives? Message-ID: <56AA457C.5030603@compsys.to> I run Windows 98SE on a 14 year old Pentium III. I have replaced the power supply twice and all three hard disk drives. It is a really good system to run the Ersatz-11 emulator for the PDP-11, specifically RT-11. Since Ersatz-11 has built-in VT100 emulation, I don't need a separate terminal emulator. I also run Netscape 7.2 for e-mail and newsgroups. And that is all - no surfing the internet or google of any sort. Incidentally, I use Ghost 7.0 for backups to DVDs. Aside from the daylight savings time changing 3 weeks too late in the spring and a week early in the fall, I really like the system and I would like to use it for another 20 years. Since I am 77 years old now, I figure that will be just about satisfactory. The Pentium III hardware is more than a bit of a concern. I would be very pleased to upgrade to 64-bit Windows 10, but the DOS variant of Ersatz-11 is not supported and I really would prefer to keep using Netscape 7.2 since I have over 100,000 e-mails and posts to newsgroups that it is important to be able to keep. QUESTION: Is it even possible to run Win98SE on a current Intel I7 CPU with SATA hard disk drives? I realize that it might be possible under a virtual machine, but I really want all of the advantages that Win98SE provides. One problem, of course, is that there must be a patch to Win98SE when more than 1 GB of actual physical RAM is present. But I can't seem to find out anything else. What leads me to believe that there is a reasonable chance is that the IDENTICAL 3.5" floppy media is able to boot DOS from drive A: and run on both the Pentium III (with a 3.5" HD floppy drive, of course) AND on a Q9550 Core 2 quad CPU which also has a 3.5" HD floppy drive which currently runs 64-bit Windows 7 from the C: drive, of course, using three SATA hard drives where the C: drive has an NTFS file structure and all the other partitions on all of the SATA drives have a FAT32 file structure. So without really understanding the details of the device drivers and the BIOS, it would seem that the SATA drive hardware and software is compatible. Ghost 7.0 is a file on the F: drive of the Q9550 CPU (first extended partition of the 1st physical SATA hard drive). Ghost is able to take a file produced as a backup image on the Pentium III system (and copied over the router connecting the Pentium III and the Q9500 systems - that also provides internet access for both systems) and re-create the same files on a specified partition on the Q9550 via the Ghost 7.0 program while the Q9550 is booted from the 3.5" floppy media. Since the SATA hard drives on the Q9550 system don't seem to have a problem with DOS on the floppy, then I have some hope that Win98SE could manage them as well. Has anyone experience or knowledge about being able to run Win98SE using an Intel I7 CPU with SATA hard drives all of them using a FAT32 file structure? Alternatively, does it seem reasonable to attempt to keep a system with a Pentium III CPU and associated hardware running for another 20 years? Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 28 10:45:57 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:45:57 -0500 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? Message-ID: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> I run Windows 98SE on a 14 year old Pentium III. I have replaced the power supply twice and all three hard disk drives. It is a really good system to run the Ersatz-11 emulator for the PDP-11, specifically RT-11. Since Ersatz-11 has built-in VT100 emulation, I don't need a separate terminal emulator. I also run Netscape 7.2 for e-mail and newsgroups. And that is all - no surfing the internet or google of any sort. Incidentally, I use Ghost 7.0 for backups to DVDs. Aside from the daylight savings time changing 3 weeks too late in the spring and a week early in the fall, I really like the system and I would like to use it for another 20 years. Since I am 77 years old now, I figure that will be just about satisfactory. The Pentium III hardware is more than a bit of a concern. I would be very pleased to upgrade to 64-bit Windows 10, but the DOS variant of Ersatz-11 is not supported and I really would prefer to keep using Netscape 7.2 since I have over 100,000 e-mails and posts to newsgroups that it is important to be able to keep. QUESTION: Is it even possible to run Win98SE on a current Intel I7 CPU with SATA hard disk drives? I realize that it might be possible under a virtual machine, but I really want all of the advantages that Win98SE provides. One problem, of course, is that there must be a patch to Win98SE when more than 1 GB of actual physical RAM is present. But I can't seem to find out anything else. What leads me to believe that there is a reasonable chance is that the IDENTICAL 3.5" floppy media is able to boot DOS from drive A: and run on both the Pentium III (with a 3.5" HD floppy drive, of course) AND on a Q9550 Core 2 quad CPU which also has a 3.5" HD floppy drive which currently runs 64-bit Windows 7 from the C: drive, of course, using three SATA hard drives where the C: drive has an NTFS file structure and all the other partitions on all of the SATA drives have a FAT32 file structure. So without really understanding the details of the device drivers and the BIOS, it would seem that the SATA drive hardware and software is compatible. Ghost 7.0 is a file on the F: drive of the Q9550 CPU (first extended partition of the 1st physical SATA hard drive). Ghost is able to take a file produced as a backup image on the Pentium III system (and copied over the router connecting the Pentium III and the Q9500 systems - that also provides internet access for both systems) and re-create the same files on a specified partition on the Q9550 via the Ghost 7.0 program while the Q9550 is booted from the 3.5" floppy media. Since the SATA hard drives on the Q9550 system don't seem to have a problem with DOS on the floppy, then I have some hope that Win98SE could manage them as well. Has anyone experience or knowledge about being able to run Win98SE using an Intel I7 CPU with SATA hard drives all of them using a FAT32 file structure? Alternatively, does it seem reasonable to attempt to keep a system with a Pentium III CPU and associated hardware running for another 20 years? Jerome Fine From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 10:50:17 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:50:17 +0100 Subject: MU-BASIC V2 and RT-11 V03B distribution disks. Message-ID: I found some 8 inch floppies with distribution kits for MU-BASIC V2 and RT-11 V03B. I imaged those and put them here http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/rx01-and-rx02-floppy-disks if anyone is interested in playing with MU-BASIC. There are both RAW disk images and to be used in SimH and like and also DMK/IMD files. The system that floppies came with is this little ( http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp1103-l) system once used at Scania in S?dert?lje. From ethan at 757.org Thu Jan 28 11:00:02 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 12:00:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> Message-ID: > QUESTION: Is it even possible to run Win98SE on a current > Intel I7 CPU with SATA hard disk drives? I realize that it might > be possible under a virtual machine, but I really want all of the > advantages that Win98SE provides. One problem, of course, > is that there must be a patch to Win98SE when more than 1 GB > of actual physical RAM is present. But I can't seem to find out > anything else. No idea on RAM, probably not. Be careful on the internet, your stuff is probably highly vulnerable. Use a 2nd system for logging into any banking or other accounts and use different passwords. There was a SATA emulation of IDE IIRC, this was an option in the bios and might work. Bigger issues are going to be the drivers for the USB chipset, all of the system devices, lack of drivers for audio, etc. Your I7 probably won't have a PS2 port or mouse port, so you have to depend on the USB bus. The BIOS **MIGHT** emulate old school but I doubt it on that new of school. Really a VM is probably the best way to go. > Alternatively, does it seem reasonable to attempt to keep a > system with a Pentium III CPU and associated hardware > running for another 20 years? Sure why not? Amiga and Atari STs still work, 8088 PCs still work. The failure point will be the electrolytic capacitors on the main board used for noise filtering, it will be the same in the power supply. Since the power supplies are all basically the same voltages that isn't that big of a deal (+5/+12/-5/-12/+3.3v) Back to running 98 on a I7. One thing you MIIIIGHTTTT be able to do is find a I7 PICMG sub board which would give you an I7 processor with a PCI bus computer. From here you could put in your Trident video card, a PCI card that supports Windows 98 on USB, and other chipset cards of the old school. Would it work? Not sure what 98 will do with all the modern devices maybe you could ignore them all. I picked up a Dolch Pac 64 which is a luggable and installed 98 on it. I use a PCI card for IDE made by Promise, and I use a PATA to SD card adapter and the whole thing runs on a SD card. I had to get a PCI USB card from MicroCenter, which I looked up the chipset in advance to confirm 98 drivers existed. I use USB thumbdrive to get data to the system, and I use a USB mouse since I couldn't find a working mouse around my place that was PS/2 or that would work with the PS/2 to USB converters. I image it off a LOT using linux (dd) so that if I bork a driver I don't have to start from square one. It's cute but not practical for everyday use for me. My goals were to run an ISA card for laser show playback made by Pangolin (QuadMod32) and a Gravis Ultrasound. I wish it had room for a Sound Blaster also, for demos. Not sure if the LCD would work well. There are some PICMG based luggables, that would be where I might go if I were you. You can swap the motherboard card between PII, PIII, P4, and higher and still retain the backplane. But some motherboard cards might require extra power connectors. There are also PATA to SATA bridges, so you might be able to run a SATA based SSD on an old computer. Good luck! -- Ethan O'Toole From ed at groenenberg.net Thu Jan 28 10:51:41 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:51:41 +0100 (CET) Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA gard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AA457C.5030603@compsys.to> References: <56AA457C.5030603@compsys.to> Message-ID: <55966.185.21.52.72.1453999901.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Jerome, Well, you could use VirtualBox for example. It supports even windows 3.1 as a guest O.S. Also, it's free. I would by an of the shell laptop, install you favourite modern O.S. W7, W8,1, W10, or Linux and on top of that VirtualBox. VirtualBox allows you to create VM's with SATA, PATA/IDE and SCSI disks all being container file(s) on the host OS. I have a W98 virtual machine I only keep for posterity, and is rarely powered up, but it still does work. Regards, Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz On Thu, January 28, 2016 17:44, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I run Windows 98SE on a 14 year old Pentium III. I have > replaced the power supply twice and all three hard disk drives. > > It is a really good system to run the Ersatz-11 emulator for the > PDP-11, specifically RT-11. Since Ersatz-11 has built-in VT100 > emulation, I don't need a separate terminal emulator. I also run > Netscape 7.2 for e-mail and newsgroups. And that is all - no > surfing the internet or google of any sort. Incidentally, I use > Ghost 7.0 for backups to DVDs. > > Aside from the daylight savings time changing 3 weeks too late > in the spring and a week early in the fall, I really like the system > and I would like to use it for another 20 years. Since I am > 77 years old now, I figure that will be just about satisfactory. > > The Pentium III hardware is more than a bit of a concern. I would > be very pleased to upgrade to 64-bit Windows 10, but the DOS > variant of Ersatz-11 is not supported and I really would prefer to > keep using Netscape 7.2 since I have over 100,000 e-mails > and posts to newsgroups that it is important to be able to keep. > > QUESTION: Is it even possible to run Win98SE on a current > Intel I7 CPU with SATA hard disk drives? I realize that it might > be possible under a virtual machine, but I really want all of the > advantages that Win98SE provides. One problem, of course, > is that there must be a patch to Win98SE when more than 1 GB > of actual physical RAM is present. But I can't seem to find out > anything else. > > What leads me to believe that there is a reasonable chance is > that the IDENTICAL 3.5" floppy media is able to boot DOS > from drive A: and run on both the Pentium III (with a 3.5" HD > floppy drive, of course) AND on a Q9550 Core 2 quad CPU > which also has a 3.5" HD floppy drive which currently runs > 64-bit Windows 7 from the C: drive, of course, using three > SATA hard drives where the C: drive has an NTFS file > structure and all the other partitions on all of the SATA drives > have a FAT32 file structure. So without really understanding > the details of the device drivers and the BIOS, it would seem > that the SATA drive hardware and software is compatible. > > Ghost 7.0 is a file on the F: drive of the Q9550 CPU > (first extended partition of the 1st physical SATA hard drive). > Ghost is able to take a file produced as a backup image on > the Pentium III system (and copied over the router connecting > the Pentium III and the Q9500 systems - that also provides > internet access for both systems) and re-create the same files > on a specified partition on the Q9550 via the Ghost 7.0 > program while the Q9550 is booted from the 3.5" floppy > media. > > Since the SATA hard drives on the Q9550 system don't seem > to have a problem with DOS on the floppy, then I have some > hope that Win98SE could manage them as well. Has anyone > experience or knowledge about being able to run Win98SE > using an Intel I7 CPU with SATA hard drives all of them using > a FAT32 file structure? > > Alternatively, does it seem reasonable to attempt to keep a > system with a Pentium III CPU and associated hardware > running for another 20 years? > > Jerome Fine > From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 07:11:33 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 08:11:33 -0500 Subject: C-64 Time delay code? Message-ID: <56AA1385.9090904@gmail.com> I am still working on the Choose your own adventure game and I was wondering it there a code line to let the player have a few minuets to read the text before the "make your choice " pops up under the opening text. I know to most of you think this is a dumb question but I just can nopt find the correct dose for this? From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 11:14:49 2016 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 12:14:49 -0500 Subject: C-64 Time delay code? In-Reply-To: <56AA1385.9090904@gmail.com> References: <56AA1385.9090904@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2016, at 8:11 AM, Mike wrote: > > I am still working on the Choose your own adventure game and I was > wondering it there a > code line to let the player have a few minuets to read the text before > the "make your choice " pops up under the opening text. > I know to most of you think this is a dumb question but I just can nopt > find the correct dose for this? Sadly, Microsoft Basic v2.0 didn?t have much in that regard. Most people just burned a cpu loop. for de = 1 to 1000: next de From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 11:33:37 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 18:33:37 +0100 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 28 January 2016 at 17:45, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I run Windows 98SE on a 14 year old Pentium III. I have > replaced the power supply twice and all three hard disk drives. I have answered this at length before. Do not even *TRY* to run Win9x on modern hardware. Most things won't work, there are no drivers, and it remains horribly inefficient. The same codebase as Netscape 7.2 still exists. It is called Mozilla Seamonkey. It is a more modern, updated version of the *same program*. I have previously posted links to detailed instructions on how you could migrate your entire profile, complete and intact, onto Seamonkey (or Thunderbird, the stand-alone mail program) without needing to change or reconfigure anything. NT-based Windows is a lot more pleasant, more reliable and on a modern multicore CPU much faster and more responsive than Win98. I suspect most people would recommend Windows 7, which has substantially the same look and feel as Win 98 and would require minimal re-familiarisation. As for Ersatz-11, there is a Win32 version, or you could run the existing version under a VM in Virtualbox, a free hypervisor. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 28 12:40:35 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 10:40:35 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> Message-ID: <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> The latest rig that I've run 98SE on is a Intel P3 (440GX) with 2GB of memory. I can do it, but it took the "unofficial final service pack" to reduce the amount of memory to something reasonable. Drivers, I think would be the stumbling block on modern hardware. I'd use VirtualBox in any case to deal with that issue. I've certainly done with other old systems. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 12:45:45 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 19:45:45 +0100 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 28 January 2016 at 19:40, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The latest rig that I've run 98SE on is a Intel P3 (440GX) with 2GB of > memory. I can do it, but it took the "unofficial final service pack" to > reduce the amount of memory to something reasonable. Exactly. I think it can't handle >512MB and it *definitely* can't do multicore. It's pointless. It's buying a new car and putting roller-skate wheels on it... because you're used to skates. > Drivers, I think would be the stumbling block on modern hardware. Definitely. > I'd use > VirtualBox in any case to deal with that issue. I've certainly done with > other old systems. Well yes, but you need a host OS, and there is no reason not to _use_ that host OS and work on it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 12:48:21 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 12:48:21 -0600 Subject: Jacques Laporte's HP-35 webpage Message-ID: Does anyone have the full webpage from here? http://home.citycable.ch/pierrefleur/Jacques-Laporte/index.html Lots of broken links, missing images, etc. His former site was at http://www.jacques-laporte.org as far as I know. Here's a page that is particularly broken: http://home.citycable.ch/pierrefleur/Jacques-Laporte/HP%2035%20Display.htm I'm mostly interested in his work on reverse engineering the HP-35 hardware. I know I used his site a couple of years ago, and it was very helpful in understanding the 35. Very sad to hear of his passing. The Wayback Machine doesn't have it apparently, thanks to robots.txt. Thanks, Kyle From kfergason at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 11:40:20 2016 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:40:20 -0600 Subject: C-64 Time delay code? In-Reply-To: References: <56AA1385.9090904@gmail.com> Message-ID: The C64 had TI$. Its been a while... but you could do something like this: 10 TI$="000000" insert lots of program... 100 if TI$="000030" then print "30 seconds have passed! " I'm sure I've forgotten some details, but you should be able to make that work. kelly On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > On Jan 28, 2016, at 8:11 AM, Mike wrote: > > > > I am still working on the Choose your own adventure game and I was > > wondering it there a > > code line to let the player have a few minuets to read the text before > > the "make your choice " pops up under the opening text. > > I know to most of you think this is a dumb question but I just can nopt > > find the correct dose for this? > > Sadly, Microsoft Basic v2.0 didn?t have much in that regard. Most people > just burned a cpu loop. > > for de = 1 to 1000: next de > > From paul at mcjones.org Thu Jan 28 12:57:34 2016 From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 10:57:34 -0800 Subject: Free Apple ImageWriter I (A9M0303) Message-ID: <56AA649E.8020104@mcjones.org> I bought it new in 1984 or 1985, and used it for six or seven years until I bought a laser printer. It?s been in its original packing box ever since. I just powered it up and verified that the line feed and form feed buttons seem to trigger appropriate movements, and the print head seeks over to the left margin. First priority to someone who will pick it up in Mountain View, California; otherwise to someone who will pay for shipping. Paul McJones From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 28 13:09:15 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:09:15 -0800 Subject: Jacques Laporte's HP-35 webpage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56AA675B.4010806@bitsavers.org> On 1/28/16 10:48 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I'm mostly interested in his work on reverse engineering the HP-35 > hardware. Talk to Eric Smith. He is easier to communicate with, since he is still alive. From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 13:13:16 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 13:13:16 -0600 Subject: C-64 Time delay code? In-Reply-To: References: <56AA1385.9090904@gmail.com> Message-ID: You can also watch the RTC.. https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/TIME https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/TIME$ On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > On Jan 28, 2016, at 8:11 AM, Mike wrote: > > > > I am still working on the Choose your own adventure game and I was > > wondering it there a > > code line to let the player have a few minuets to read the text before > > the "make your choice " pops up under the opening text. > > I know to most of you think this is a dumb question but I just can nopt > > find the correct dose for this? > > Sadly, Microsoft Basic v2.0 didn?t have much in that regard. Most people > just burned a cpu loop. > > for de = 1 to 1000: next de > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 28 13:25:59 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:25:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > Exactly. I think it can't handle >512MB and it *definitely* can't do > multicore. It's pointless. It's buying a new car and putting > roller-skate wheels on it... because you're used to skates. "Modern" car wheels look like wagon wheels to me. Want some skates? Why struggle with getting 98 going on "modern" hardware, when I would love to give my mother's Win98SE e-machines with monitor, etc. to anybody who will take it away. Berkeley, CA Please do NOT ask me to ship it! (OK, I will ship it for $200) Owned since new by a little old lady (recently deceased) who didn't go to church on Sundays, but, other than taking my internet class, never liked computers. 466MHz Celeron,5X DVD,8.4G drive,64M RAM, 56K modem! It still has all of the original marketing stickers on its face, including the one claiming "This computer is NEVER OBSOLETE" (pushing their internet access, and a replacement machine every 2 years for $99 "Some restrictions apply") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 13:30:32 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 14:30:32 -0500 Subject: C-64 Time delay code? In-Reply-To: References: <56AA1385.9090904@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Kelly Fergason wrote: > The C64 had TI$. Its been a while... but you could do something like this: > > 10 TI$="000000" > insert lots of program... > 100 if TI$="000030" then print "30 seconds have passed! " Using "equals" there can cause issues if somehow 31 seconds pass then you check (perhaps the user hit RUN/STOP, waited, then CONTINUE...) What's safer is 100 TI$="000000" 110 IF (TI < 1800) GOTO 110 Just reset TI/TI$ like line 100 every time you want to wait (you can't set TI, only TI$), then loop until enough "jiffies" (1/60 sec) have passed. You could make it fancier with a subroutine that uses a variable (in seconds) and does the math for you. Many ways to do it. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 28 13:32:30 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:32:30 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56AA6CCE.8090008@sydex.com> On 01/28/2016 10:45 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Well yes, but you need a host OS, and there is no reason not to > _use_ that host OS and work on it. You've got a point, unless of course there are aspects of the Win9x API that aren't supported by the more modern OS for a given application. I've wondered for some time how long it will be before the only mainline OSs will employ 64 bit architecture, leaving older 16-bit code in the dustbin (unless, of course, there are add-on packages that support 16-bit PM). --Chuck From johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 28 13:54:11 2016 From: johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk (John Wallace) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 19:54:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? References: <997019067.2856911.1454010851028.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <997019067.2856911.1454010851028.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> [massive snippage, sorry] Several folks have mentioned Dave Cutler. There's a book called "Inside Windows NT", by Helen Custer at Microsoft Press. The aforementioned Dave Cutler (architect of software including RSX11, VAX/VMS, VAXELN, and WNT) wrote a foreword for it. There, he says the goals of NT were "portability, security, POSIX compliance, compatibility, scalable performance, multiprocessor support, extensibility, and ease of internationalisation" (p xviii in my copy). Obviously some of that list has fallen away during the NT/Gates years (portability? security? POSIX?) WNT's kernel stuff, process architecture, etc has some VAXELN heritage. VAXELN was a not particularly well known (even inside DEC) Cutler project for a distributable realtime OS which would feel comfortable for VMS programmers without being VMS, and allow distributed RT applications to be developed without need to understand low level hardware specifics and OS kernel interface details. VAXELN incorporated early examples of a process model which also incorporated threads, and a nice approach to interprocess data sharing (a distributed naming service, transparent messaging between apps whether on the same node or separate, etc). Marvellous stuff, some of which duly made its way into NT, though many writers understandably missed the VAXELN connection (it is briefly mentioned in Custer's book). Those who are moderately familiar with the internals of NT, VMS, and VAXELN (which probably isn't that many people) will recognise some of the VMSisms that VAXELN didn't have and which are also not present in NT. At a detail level, where are WNT's ASTs, where are logical names? And at a big-picture level - VMS is a mostly monolithic setup (one single kernel address space), WNT originally wasn't, though over time Gates forced changes towards the monolithic approach, e.g. moving assorted drivers and subsystems into the kernel for performance reasons that for security and robustness reasons should have been isolated from each other. Neither VAXELN nor NT have quotas or privileges as such. There is no meaningful security architecture on WNT; on VMS there is. And so on. But fewer people will know VAXELN, and so the Cutler project that gets the publicity in the "where does WNT come from" context is VMS (it is, after all, still pretty close even if VAXELN is closer). And the WNT name? Who knows. The magic words PRISM and MICA perhaps come into this discussion somewhere too, but I know nothing about them. Have a lot of fun. John Wallace (not to be confused with John Willis!) [Repurposed with minor edits from some of my occasional WNT/VAXELN/VMS ramblings on comp.os.vms] From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 28 14:00:01 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 12:00:01 -0800 Subject: M. Minsky - AI & Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <56A98607.6060805@pico-systems.com> References: <56A98607.6060805@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56AA7341.5070000@sydex.com> On 01/27/2016 07:07 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 01/27/2016 11:24 AM, Murray McCullough wrote: >> I learned today of the passing of a true computing visionary, >> Marvin Minsky He of artificial intelligence fame. We in the classic >> computing fraternity, and computing in general, can enjoy our >> ?hobby? because of his work. >> I recall Minsky's text "Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines" was very entertaining--unlike most college texts. The introduction of McCullogh-Pitts cell analogies was my first exposure to the idea of neural networks. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jan 28 14:11:11 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 14:11:11 -0600 Subject: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU Message-ID: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> DEC Gear available. Unlike most dec gear, I must admit that I can't identify exactly what this is. Several racks, I was guessing AFT or Instrumentation Testing. Looks like one or more cpu or expansion cabinets in some of the racks, and some DEC AD/DA interface stuff. I was left with the impression that there may be one or more racks that are not shown in the pictures provided. I was told that racks are in "several different buildings on the estate" (residential). The first rack looks to be in very bad shape (perhaps a power supply), but the other racks don't look so bad. I am not sure that I can get more pictures from the owner, but will try. I think that in order to get pictures of the fronts (what we all probably want to see), the owner would have to move stuff (and them) and would rather not. The equipment is located in NSW, Australia. It sound like they just want it to go to a good home. If someone is local to NSW Australia and wants to spearhead going onsite to take a closer look for others and/or pick up the gear themselves, let me know offlist and I'll give you the contact info. To those on the list that aren't down under - any ideas what this is? Pics are temporarily at http://www.ezwind.net/nsw-au Best, J From mark at markesystems.com Thu Jan 28 14:11:15 2016 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 12:11:15 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA gard drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CA6B80888BA47298819403E56B2ADF5@Daedalus> > Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:44:44 -0500 > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA gard drives? > > I run Windows 98SE on a 14 year old Pentium III. I have > replaced the power supply twice and all three hard disk drives. <...> > Aside from the daylight savings time changing 3 weeks too late > in the spring and a week early in the fall, I really like the system > and I would like to use it for another 20 years. Since I am > 77 years old now, I figure that will be just about satisfactory. Win-98 SE was definitely one of the higher points of the Windows lineage. For most of what I did (and do, for that matter), it worked very well; it would have been nice if it recognized USB storage devices natively. > The Pentium III hardware is more than a bit of a concern. I would > be very pleased to upgrade to 64-bit Windows 10, but the DOS > variant of Ersatz-11 is not supported and I really would prefer to > keep using Netscape 7.2 since I have over 100,000 e-mails > and posts to newsgroups that it is important to be able to keep. The hardware is worth worrying about. Replacement power supplies will probably continue to be available, but those disks are likely to be unobtanium, and are practically guaranteed to fail at some point. My personal "sweet spot" for operating systems was Windows XP, and it was with with quite a bit of trepidation that I eventually moved on to Win7-32. Eventually, I needed a new laptop, and moved to Win8.1-64, which took a great deal of massaging to make comfortable (the "Classic Shell" product is very nicely-done, and free, and went a long way towards making things usable). However, there were still a lot of problems: - 64 bits absolutely breaks any 16-bit code, whether it be a DOS program or a Windows 3.1 application. Unfortunately, I have a large industrial application that I've maintained for the last 20 years (things last a long time in industry), written in Visual Basic 3. Maintaining it under XP was easy, because XP would just magically fire up ntvdm (NT Virtual DOS Machine), then run a Windows compatibility layer (wowexec) on top of that; this all made everything work just fine, and with almost complete transparency. For DOS programs, it would capture any physical I/O calls (for example, to the com port addresses) and do a fantastic job of emulating them - again, completely transparent to the application program. Win7 (Vista, actually, but nobody cares about that) broke all of that. - I have an application that I like and use a lot (CircuitMaker-2000) which runs fine on every version of Windows from 98SE on up to at least Win8.1-64 bit, and presumably Win10, though I haven't tried it. However, printing has been broken on everything since Win98SE. - The versions of Office and QuickBooks I was using started exhibiting numerous problems; Word continued to work "OK", sort of, but QB was completely unstable, and I depend upon it to run my business. - The security implementation of pretty much everything, starting with Win7, makes a lot of things difficult; registry writes are now tightly controlled, registering DLLs and OCXs requires elevated privileges, network firewall functions are highly complex, convoluted, and depending upon the version (Premium, Pro, Ultimate, etc.) the tools may not even be provided to completely manage all of this. My solution to most of this (except some of the network issues) has been to use VirtualBox. It's free, and does a great job of handling XP as a guest operating system. With XP, mouse movements, virtual disks, networking, and even the clipboard are all nicely integrated into the host operating system, so my XP machine is always just a keyboard shortcut away. I also have a virtual Win98SE machine, to handle the printing issues with CircuitMaker. This is less well integrated, in that the mouse capture is clumsy, and the file system integration features aren't there, but that was easy enough to get around by just creating shared folders on the host, and setting them up as network drives on the Win98 VM. It took a solid week of tinkering to get everything set up to my satisfaction (I have a lot of disparate interests, and their associated applications), but now I have a setup that I'm very happy with. (I broke down and advanced a single version - to 2003 - for both Office and Quickbooks, so those both run happily in native mode now.) > QUESTION: Is it even possible to run Win98SE on a current > Intel I7 CPU with SATA hard disk drives? I realize that it might > be possible under a virtual machine, but I really want all of the > advantages that Win98SE provides. One problem, of course, Almost certainly not, at least practically. Even if you can get it to boot and install, it will have no idea how to handle any of the modern peripherals, and drivers certainly won't be available. So sound won't work, the screen will be limited to VGA-16, and I'm not sure about the keyboard and mouse (there's a reasonable chance that the BIOS will emulate the legacy PS-2 devices, just as it's abstracting the details of the SATA disks). I really think that your best solution would be to go the virtual route. Get a huge monitor (mine's 28" 2560 x 1440 - I would have preferred an even larger curved 4k unit, but HDMI wouldn't support it at full resolution, and that's all my laptop has) - or even a dual monitor setup, a terabyte or two of hard disk, and plan to spend that week tinkering. As much as you like Win98SE (and I completely understand why!), you might find that XP will still run everything you're interested in, and VirtualBox handles that very well. There's every reason to expect that the virtual machine will continue to be stable and supported for the foreseeable future (like 20+ years), regardless what the host Microsoft operating system evolves to be. Of course there's no reason not to have both XP and Win98SE VMs, as I do - I even have a Win3.1 machine, just for the fun of it. For backup, I stubbornly store everything in two large directory trees: C:\Library and C:\Data (actually, I have a C:\Music as well). The C:\Data tree has absolutely everything that I've ever worked on: source, designs, correspondence, pictures, taxes, email store, and the VM disks. It takes a bit of persuading for the modern versions of Windows to accept C:\Data as the "My Documents" folder, but it can be done. The C:\Library tree has all kinds of documentation (PDFs of manuals and data sheets, and lots of just plain reading material), as well as a large sub-tree called Distrib that has the installation sources for all my software applications. In some cases, this is in the form of ISO CD-ROM images, but mostly it's sub-directories with the contents of all those. Everything is there: all the Visual Basic/Studio versions, all the Office versions, compilers, Adobe, Photoshop, PLC and other development systems, SolidWorks and AutoCAD, and even the installation media (in both ISO and file formats) of the Microsoft OSes as well (DOS through Win-7). All of this fits comfortably on the single terabyte drive that came with the laptop, and backing up is a simple matter of either just copying the two (three) large trees, or using some difference software (I use a free program called TreeComp, but there are many others too) to sync everything to an external USB (3.0 strongly preferred) drive, which I keep in the fire safe. Moving to a new computer is simply (if time-consumingly) a matter of copying those trees to the new machine, then installing the software directly from the \Library tree - no other CDs required. > Alternatively, does it seem reasonable to attempt to keep a > system with a Pentium III CPU and associated hardware > running for another 20 years? It's probably possible (although the weak link would probably be the disks), but if it were me, I'd treat that more as a hobby project than as a machine I depended upon. So far, I've successfully avoided giving up the applications and "way of doing things" that I like and am comfortable with, while still migrating to current hardware and software. I have to admit, effectively unlimited speed and space are quite nice... ~~ Mark Moulding From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 14:52:00 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 20:52:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: CDC Sabre 8" SMD blues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi folks, I recently picked up a Symbolics system built around an 8" Control Data Corp. Sabre hard drive. Some files read when I show the FEP directory listing but many show as "Error reading file header, wrong pkid read" which I assume is some sort of FEP FS integrity check. In short, the drive becomes ready and much of the data appears still there, but I have some brand of consistent read errors that preclude the machine from booting. It's not a software issue as the machine was deinstalled in a working condition. Anyone familiar with these terrible drives? Am I totally up the creek? I tried a couple different orientations. Thanks, - Ian Sent from Outlook Mobile From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jan 28 15:04:53 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 13:04:53 -0800 Subject: CDC Sabre 8" SMD blues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jan 28, 2016, at 12:52 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > > Hi folks, > > I recently picked up a Symbolics system built around an 8" Control Data Corp. Sabre hard drive. > Some files read when I show the FEP directory listing but many show as "Error reading file header, wrong pkid read" which I assume is some sort of FEP FS integrity check. > In short, the drive becomes ready and much of the data appears still there, but I have some brand of consistent read errors that preclude the machine from booting. > It's not a software issue as the machine was deinstalled in a working condition. > Anyone familiar with these terrible drives? Am I totally up the creek? I tried a couple different orientations. Too bad. They were the only other option on the G-Machines vs ST-506. I have experience with only 2 different types of SMD drives: Fujitsu Eagles and CDC-9766. TTFN - Guy From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 28 16:50:06 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:50:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA gard drives? Message-ID: <20160128225006.1AB1618C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark Moulding > Win-98 SE ... it would have been nice if it recognized USB storage > devices natively. There is that package you can add (my copy is in a self-extracting archive, called "nusb23e.exe") that recognizes USB drives, etc. I run a number of USB devices (memory sticks, mice, etc) on my 98SE's and they all work fine. My approach to keeping my 98SE machines running is _lots_ of spares of all kinds. They were easy and cheap to acquire a while back - they're a lot harder to find now, those machines are all totally obsolete. Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 28 17:57:43 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 15:57:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA gard drives? In-Reply-To: <20160128225006.1AB1618C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160128225006.1AB1618C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > My approach to keeping my 98SE machines running is _lots_ of spares of all > kinds. They were easy and cheap to acquire a while back - they're a lot > harder to find now, those machines are all totally obsolete. FPUIB (Free Pick Up In Berkeley) no shipping. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jan 28 18:48:56 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 00:48:56 +0000 Subject: Front Panels Message-ID: <56AAB6F8.2090407@btinternet.com> Hi Guys What a week! First I had to reject a batch of panels because some text was not centered right. Then whilst the matt black on the front gave a really nice finish I felt the resistance to abrasion could be better. So I've switched to a silk textured surface base material. It mimics the diffuse layer on the front side of the original board really well. But of course it resists abrasion better (because its the surface of the actual material and not just a coating) and also it provides a better key for the inks to adhere to. It gives the same effect of there being a front matt black layer as did the original. It looked good on the sample. It still leaves me the option to put black on the front if needed. I took the opportunity to add rounded corners and have them drill the big hole for the key lock Next the great US snow storm stopped shipments to the US (they are still not caught up) and then my email stated acting up. Some emails came through and some didn't. Any way it looks like I am just about back on track.: The first batch of predrilled silk textured front panel blanks are due now and the silk screen shop will run them when they arrive. The new packaging has arrived. The shippers will start to accept new parcels for the US on Monday or Tuesday. Finally they fixed my email late yesterday and its still OK. Rod From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jan 28 19:22:53 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 19:22:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The latest rig that I've run 98SE on is a Intel P3 (440GX) with 2GB of > memory. I can do it, but it took the "unofficial final service pack" to > reduce the amount of memory to something reasonable. > > Drivers, I think would be the stumbling block on modern hardware. I'd > use VirtualBox in any case to deal with that issue. I've certainly done > with other old systems. Windows 98 worked fine with a 1.4GHz Tualatin Pentium III (socket 370) and i815e chipset. It also worked just fine on a Pentium 4 and I suspect would work with a Pentium D or Core Duo using only one CPU core. Windows 98 was supposed to support a maximum of 2GB of memory, however it has a bug in the Vcache driver which causes problems unless you limit the memory it can use to 1 or 1.5GB. From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 19:30:44 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 19:30:44 -0600 Subject: Decimal Adjust Accumulator on the 4004 Message-ID: I'm currently writing a bit of code for the 4004 at the moment, and playing with it in the online Javascript emulator found here: http://e4004.szyc.org/emu/ According to http://e4004.szyc.org/iset.html (which I believe is copied straight from the MCS-4 Users Manual), the DAA instruction should increment the accumulator by 6 if carry is set or if the accumulator is greater than 9. Carry should be set following the instruction if the resulting addition generated a carry; otherwise it's unaffected. Let's say the accumulator is currently 9, carry is not set. I add another 9. Accumulator is now 2 with a carry. Running DAA should turn this into 8 with carry set, indicating that 9+9=(1)8. Am I thinking through this correctly? I ask, because according to the simulator's source code, DAA won't do that, if I'm following it correctly: function opDAA() { //DAA Decimal Adjust Accumulator if(A_reg > 9) A_reg += 6; C_flag=0; if (A_reg & 0xf0) {A_reg&=0xf; C_flag=1;} incPC(); } It says that it'll only add 6 if the accumulator is greater than 9, not if a carry is already set. It will then reset carry and set it if and only if there was a carry. Have I found a bug in the simulator? Am I misreading the MCS-4 Users Manual? In any event, this is my proposed fix to better match what the instruction description says: function opDAA() { //DAA Decimal Adjust Accumulator if((A_reg > 9) | (C_flag)) A_reg += 6; if (A_reg & 0xf0) {A_reg&=0xf; C_flag=1;} incPC(); } Seems to work as I would expect it to. Thanks, Kyle From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 28 19:32:41 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 20:32:41 -0500 Subject: [SPAM key] - Re: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA gard drives? In-Reply-To: <26d063e2-6f07-4d6f-850a-6c205921c5d6@classiccmp.org> References: <26d063e2-6f07-4d6f-850a-6c205921c5d6@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56AAC139.6090403@compsys.to> >mark at markesystems.com wrote: >> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:44:44 -0500 >> From: "Jerome H. Fine" >> Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA gard drives? >> >> I run Windows 98SE on a 14 year old Pentium III. I have >> replaced the power supply twice and all three hard disk drives. > >> QUESTION: Is it even possible to run Win98SE on a current >> Intel I7 CPU with SATA hard disk drives? I realize that it might >> be possible under a virtual machine, but I really want all of the >> advantages that Win98SE provides. One problem, of course, > > Almost certainly not, at least practically. Even if you can get it to > boot and install, it will have no idea how to handle any of the modern > peripherals, and drivers certainly won't be available. So sound won't > work, the screen will be limited to VGA-16, and I'm not sure about the > keyboard and mouse (there's a reasonable chance that the BIOS will > emulate the legacy PS-2 devices, just as it's abstracting the details > of the SATA disks). Then I am really confused. I have two older systems that are able to run 64-bit Windows 7, an E8400 and a Q9550. Both take SATA drives which are still available. The mother boards are ASUS5B. I would guess they are both about 7 years old and I would hope that some of that old hardware might be a bit easier to find. I can also still boot from both system using an old DOS 3.5" floppy media and run Ghost 7.0 with these old SATA drives, but as far as I can understand, using the device drivers on the floppy drive. Is it likely that either of these two systems be able to run Win98SE with the SATA hard drives, in one case 500 GB each and the other system has 1 TB drives. In that case, it would still be possible to use current SATA drives, but the 1 GB limit on physical memory for Win98SE would need to be patched. By the way, the Pentium III that is 12 years old has 768 MB of memory, so it is possible to run Win98SE with more than 500 MB of physical memory. As I mentioned, the only two applications I would run would be the DOS variant of Ersatz-11 and Netscape 7.2 for e-mail and newsgroups. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 28 19:35:10 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 20:35:10 -0500 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA gard drives? In-Reply-To: <26d063e2-6f07-4d6f-850a-6c205921c5d6@classiccmp.org> References: <26d063e2-6f07-4d6f-850a-6c205921c5d6@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56AAC1CE.4080201@compsys.to> >mark at markesystems.com wrote: >> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:44:44 -0500 >> From: "Jerome H. Fine" >> Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA gard drives? >> >> I run Windows 98SE on a 14 year old Pentium III. I have >> replaced the power supply twice and all three hard disk drives. > >> QUESTION: Is it even possible to run Win98SE on a current >> Intel I7 CPU with SATA hard disk drives? I realize that it might >> be possible under a virtual machine, but I really want all of the >> advantages that Win98SE provides. One problem, of course, > > > Almost certainly not, at least practically. Even if you can get it to > boot and install, it will have no idea how to handle any of the modern > peripherals, and drivers certainly won't be available. So sound won't > work, the screen will be limited to VGA-16, and I'm not sure about the > keyboard and mouse (there's a reasonable chance that the BIOS will > emulate the legacy PS-2 devices, just as it's abstracting the details > of the SATA disks). Then I am really confused. I have two older systems that are able to run 64-bit Windows 7, an E8400 and a Q9550. Both take SATA drives which are still available. The mother boards are ASUS5B. I would guess they are both about 7 years old and I would hope that some of that old hardware might be a bit easier to find. I can also still boot from both system using an old DOS 3.5" floppy media and run Ghost 7.0 with these old SATA drives, but as far as I can understand, using the device drivers on the floppy drive. Is it likely that either of these two systems be able to run Win98SE with the SATA hard drives, in one case 500 GB each and the other system has 1 TB drives. In that case, it would still be possible to use current SATA drives, but the 1 GB limit on physical memory for Win98SE would need to be patched. By the way, the Pentium III that is 12 years old has 768 MB of memory, so it is possible to run Win98SE with more than 500 MB of physical memory. As I mentioned, the only two applications I would run would be the DOS variant of Ersatz-11 and Netscape 7.2 for e-mail and newsgroups. Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 28 19:37:57 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:37:57 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56AAC275.2020406@sydex.com> On 01/28/2016 05:22 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 28 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Windows 98 worked fine with a 1.4GHz Tualatin Pentium III (socket 370) > and i815e chipset. It also worked just fine on a Pentium 4 and I suspect > would work with a Pentium D or Core Duo using only one CPU core. I didn't mention that I've got 98SE running on an 820 chipset (RIMM/RDRAM is silly cheap now) with a Tuallie 1.4GHz in a Powerleap slocket. It doesn't much agree with the Crystal CS4622 audio, but perhaps that's just a matter of finding the right driver. > Windows 98 was supposed to support a maximum of 2GB of memory, however > it has a bug in the Vcache driver which causes problems unless you limit > the memory it can use to 1 or 1.5GB. Exactly what I've done with 440GX system. Using a different XMS driver, I keep a 1GB RAMdisk there. On faster, more modern systems, I use VirtualBox. Just not worth the extra trouble finding drivers--but I suspect 98SE will run on P4 systems as well. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 20:00:20 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 20:00:20 -0600 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AAC275.2020406@sydex.com> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> <56AAC275.2020406@sydex.com> Message-ID: the amd 64's ran 98 se. it installs in less 23 seconds or somthing me and a friend did it ran it for quiet a while i7 are multi core dunno how 98 would handle that. On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 7:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/28/2016 05:22 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> On Thu, 28 Jan 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> > > Windows 98 worked fine with a 1.4GHz Tualatin Pentium III (socket 370) >> and i815e chipset. It also worked just fine on a Pentium 4 and I suspect >> would work with a Pentium D or Core Duo using only one CPU core. >> > > I didn't mention that I've got 98SE running on an 820 chipset (RIMM/RDRAM > is silly cheap now) with a Tuallie 1.4GHz in a Powerleap slocket. It > doesn't much agree with the Crystal CS4622 audio, but perhaps that's just a > matter of finding the right driver. > > Windows 98 was supposed to support a maximum of 2GB of memory, however >> it has a bug in the Vcache driver which causes problems unless you limit >> the memory it can use to 1 or 1.5GB. >> > > Exactly what I've done with 440GX system. Using a different XMS driver, I > keep a 1GB RAMdisk there. > > On faster, more modern systems, I use VirtualBox. Just not worth the > extra trouble finding drivers--but I suspect 98SE will run on P4 systems as > well. > > --Chuck > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 28 20:33:44 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 18:33:44 -0800 Subject: Decimal Adjust Accumulator on the 4004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-Jan-28, at 5:30 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I'm currently writing a bit of code for the 4004 at the moment, and playing > with it in the online Javascript emulator found here: > http://e4004.szyc.org/emu/ > > According to http://e4004.szyc.org/iset.html (which I believe is copied > straight from the MCS-4 Users Manual), the DAA instruction should increment > the accumulator by 6 if carry is set or if the accumulator is greater than > 9. Carry should be set following the instruction if the resulting addition > generated a carry; otherwise it's unaffected. > > Let's say the accumulator is currently 9, carry is not set. I add another > 9. Accumulator is now 2 with a carry. Running DAA should turn this into 8 > with carry set, indicating that 9+9=(1)8. Am I thinking through this > correctly? > > I ask, because according to the simulator's source code, DAA won't do that, > if I'm following it correctly: > > function opDAA() { //DAA Decimal Adjust Accumulator > if(A_reg > 9) A_reg += 6; > C_flag=0; if (A_reg & 0xf0) {A_reg&=0xf; C_flag=1;} > incPC(); > } > > It says that it'll only add 6 if the accumulator is greater than 9, not if > a carry is already set. It will then reset carry and set it if and only if > there was a carry. > > Have I found a bug in the simulator? Am I misreading the MCS-4 Users > Manual? > > In any event, this is my proposed fix to better match what the instruction > description says: > > function opDAA() { //DAA Decimal Adjust Accumulator > if((A_reg > 9) | (C_flag)) A_reg += 6; > if (A_reg & 0xf0) {A_reg&=0xf; C_flag=1;} > incPC(); > } > > Seems to work as I would expect it to. The original looks correct to me. I think you or the documentation are confusing the hardware carry flag with the carry out of the 4th bit (nibble carry). A binary addition of two BCD digits will require correction either if the result is in the range 0xA to 0xF or if there was a carry out of the 4th bit. The hardware carry flag is the carry out of the 8th bit and is irrelevant immediately after the addition. Note whether or not correction is needed is synonymous with the state of *decimal* carry from the addition. To rephrase the original code: - If the 8-bit result of a preceding binary addition of two BCD digits located in the lower nibble of the source operands is > 0x9 then add 0x6 to the result. This corrects results which were both in the range 0xA to 0xF and 0x10 to 0x12 (the max result of adding two BCD digits is 9+9=0x12). The lower nibble of the acc now correctly reflects the desired decimal digit value. - We now need to adjust the hardware carry flag to reflect whether there was a decimal carry (so it is valid for input to a subsequent BCD digit addition). Because of the conditional addition of the 'correcting 6', all results which required correction are now > 0xF in the acc (have overflowed into the higher nibble) (0xA+6=0x10), so we set the hardware carry flag accordingly, as well as clear out the extraneous bits in the higher nibble of the acc so it contains only our desired decimal digit. I've been through this binary-BCD addition correction stuff numerous times in reverse engineering discrete and SSI calculators - it's far more fun when it's being done with serial bit-streams in hardware. From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 20:44:16 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 20:44:16 -0600 Subject: Decimal Adjust Accumulator on the 4004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > The original looks correct to me. > > I think you or the documentation are confusing the hardware carry flag > with the carry out of the 4th bit (nibble carry). > A binary addition of two BCD digits will require correction either if the > result is in the range 0xA to 0xF or if there was a carry out of the 4th > bit. > The hardware carry flag is the carry out of the 8th bit and is irrelevant > immediately after the addition. But this is a 4-bit architecture...? A carry out of the 4th bit does affect the carry flag. The JS simulator uses an 8-bit value to hold the 4-bit accumulator, which is why they check if there's anything in the upper nibble, then clear the upper nibble of the accumulator. Or did I miss something? Thanks, Kyle From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 28 21:21:38 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 19:21:38 -0800 Subject: Decimal Adjust Accumulator on the 4004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E247008-1132-4DAB-84C4-D66602711CDC@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Jan-28, at 6:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> The original looks correct to me. >> >> I think you or the documentation are confusing the hardware carry flag >> with the carry out of the 4th bit (nibble carry). >> A binary addition of two BCD digits will require correction either if the >> result is in the range 0xA to 0xF or if there was a carry out of the 4th >> bit. >> The hardware carry flag is the carry out of the 8th bit and is irrelevant >> immediately after the addition. > > > But this is a 4-bit architecture...? A carry out of the 4th bit does affect > the carry flag. > > The JS simulator uses an 8-bit value to hold the 4-bit accumulator, which > is why they check if there's anything in the upper nibble, then clear the > upper nibble of the accumulator. > > Or did I miss something? > > Thanks, Sorry, yes, I was forgetting it was a 4004 and failing to distinguish between the real hardware and the emulated version of the registers, and should not have been referring to the '8th bit'. (I was assuming the emulator was using a larger-than-4-bit container for acc.) So then it would seem to depend on what the emu does at the end of an addition instruction (or any instruction that affects the accumulator) - that is, does it mask out the higher nibble at the end of the add instruction? If it does, then you should be correct that the DAA implementation is faulty, as it would not detect addition results in the range 0x10 to 0x12 as needing correction. If it does not, then the original code (might) be OK, and your additional test for C_flag would be superfluous but not incorrect. I could see someone writing their emulator either way: always keeping an oversized container for the acc 'value-correct', or not caring what happens in the higher, oversized bits. However the rest of the original code you presented suggests they do care, and are keeping the acc value-correct. So I can't give a sure answer without looking at the rest of the emu code, but it looks like you may be right, the DAA impl. may be faulty. Either that, or I need to have dinner before exercising brain cells any further. From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jan 28 15:58:58 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 13:58:58 -0800 Subject: CDC Sabre 8" SMD blues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I have experience with only 2 different types of SMD drives: Fujitsu Eagles and CDC-9766. Both good drives. Eagles had one issue .. NOISE !!! On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On Jan 28, 2016, at 12:52 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > > > > Hi folks, > > > > I recently picked up a Symbolics system built around an 8" Control > Data Corp. Sabre hard drive. > > Some files read when I show the FEP directory listing but many > show as "Error reading file header, wrong pkid read" which I assume is some > sort of FEP FS integrity check. > > In short, the drive becomes ready and much of the data appears > still there, but I have some brand of consistent read errors that preclude > the machine from booting. > > It's not a software issue as the machine was deinstalled in a > working condition. > > Anyone familiar with these terrible drives? Am I totally up the > creek? I tried a couple different orientations. > > Too bad. They were the only other option on the G-Machines vs ST-506. > > I have experience with only 2 different types of SMD drives: Fujitsu > Eagles and CDC-9766. > > TTFN - Guy > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 22:28:10 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 23:28:10 -0500 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder Message-ID: Hello, all, I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal that happens to be missing the fuse and fuse holder. Unlike a lot of 1960s and 1970s gear, it's not round. It's square. Is this a standard IBM thing from the 70s/80s? Anyone know where I could get one? It seems to snap in and probably fell out at some point under its previous owner. Also, I found only a little info on it from Googling. Later IBM ASCII terminals emulated ANSI command or Wyse-50 or something. I couldn't find anything on the 3101. Is it a glass TTY or does it respond to any cursor positioning, etc. commands? Thanks for any tips and info. Worst case, I can bodge in a fuse on the inside, but if I can find a replacement holder, I'd like that more. Thanks, -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 29 00:19:30 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 22:19:30 -0800 Subject: CDC Sabre 8" SMD blues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56AB0472.9060707@shiresoft.com> On 1/28/16 12:52 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Hi folks, > > I recently picked up a Symbolics system built around an 8" Control Data Corp. Sabre hard drive. > Some files read when I show the FEP directory listing but many show as "Error reading file header, wrong pkid read" which I assume is some sort of FEP FS integrity check. > In short, the drive becomes ready and much of the data appears still there, but I have some brand of consistent read errors that preclude the machine from booting. > It's not a software issue as the machine was deinstalled in a working condition. > Anyone familiar with these terrible drives? Am I totally up the creek? I tried a couple different orientations. I just realized, that I have 2 8" SMD drives that are bolted together (along with their power supplies). I have *no* idea of their operational condition (but physically they're in good shape). If you want to come down and collect them, they're yours. They are way too heavy to ship. TTFN - Guy From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Jan 29 01:39:58 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 01:39:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal that happens to be > missing the fuse and fuse holder. Unlike a lot of 1960s and 1970s gear, > it's not round. It's square. Is this a standard IBM thing from the > 70s/80s? Anyone know where I could get one? It seems to snap in and > probably fell out at some point under its previous owner. > > Also, I found only a little info on it from Googling. Later IBM ASCII > terminals emulated ANSI command or Wyse-50 or something. I couldn't > find anything on the 3101. Is it a glass TTY or does it respond to any > cursor positioning, etc. commands? > > Thanks for any tips and info. Worst case, I can bodge in a fuse on the > inside, but if I can find a replacement holder, I'd like that more. There aren't too many US made square panel mount fuse holders. It sounds like it might be a Littelfuse 348 series. http://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuse-blocks-fuseholders-and-fuse-accessories/fuseholders/348/348870.aspx Littelfuse 348007 (03480007) fuse holder cap, black Littelfuse 348001 (03480001) fuse holder cap, red From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Jan 29 02:43:26 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 00:43:26 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: <56A9BA96.6030505@gmail.com> References: <56A9BA96.6030505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4693742D-C123-4184-BB50-E2E971397A36@nf6x.net> > On Jan 27, 2016, at 22:52, John Blake wrote: > > Vetusware is highly unreliable and tries to charge for accounts, which isn't worth it at all because most of the things I've gotten from there haven't worked. Try: https://winworldpc.com/library I got the "blue spine" release of OS/2 Warp Connect 3.0 from winworldpc.com and successfully installed it, using a SCSI CDROM drive that I pulled out of a Sun Ultra 60 parts rig. It's clearly a newer release than the Warp Connect release I downloaded form vetusware, which didn't even include TCP/IP support. The IBM WebExplorer browser is not able to cope with the modern web, and the updater was not able to resolve updates.gopher.ibm.com, oddly enough. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Jan 29 04:38:21 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:38:21 +0100 Subject: Last call: free machines in Sweden Message-ID: <20160129103821.GA15994@Update.UU.SE> Hi My employer is moving house and need to clear out some old stuff. We have ported to many, many Unix systems over the years and have kept some of the machines. Available is: 1x IBM RS/6000 big and beige 1x Bull DPX/2 1x Concurrent Computer Corporation in rack 1x Sperry unix machine 1x NCR (same as above, other label) Possibly 1 VAX 4000 and possibly one Alphaserver 2000. Pickup only. We will remove hard drives since they contain source code. In a few weeks, this will be gone. A few pictures here: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/jobb_vind/ Items are in Uppsala, Sweden. /P From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 08:57:16 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:57:16 -0500 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 2:39 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 28 Jan 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal that happens to be >> missing the fuse and fuse holder. Unlike a lot of 1960s and 1970s gear, >> it's not round. It's square... > > There aren't too many US made square panel mount fuse holders. Indeed. I've seen them, but they aren't ordinary. > It sounds like it might be a Littelfuse 348 series. > > http://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuse-blocks-fuseholders-and-fuse-accessories/fuseholders/348/348870.aspx That looks like the thing. Thanks! -ethan From js at cimmeri.com Fri Jan 29 10:04:01 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:04:01 -0500 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AAC275.2020406@sydex.com> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> <56AAC275.2020406@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> On 1/28/2016 8:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On faster, more modern systems, I use > VirtualBox. Just not worth the extra > trouble finding drivers--but I suspect > 98SE will run on P4 systems as well. The one thing I'm not seeing mentioned in re VirtualBox is that what if you have a legacy Win 98SE system with hardware in it, like a GPIB card or sound card? Or if you have software that talks to hardware via serial or parallel ports eg. eprom burners, Zector ZVG vector graphic driver for MAME, etc. The other hassle is having to essentially rebuild an Win98 (or any other) machine from scratch in order to try to replicate an existing setup. I haven't seen any way to "capture" an existing machine and all its disk partitions -- especially when there's multiple partitions of different types -- and import it into the virtual world. That'd be great. - J. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 29 10:06:25 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:06:25 -0800 Subject: CDC Sabre 8" SMD blues In-Reply-To: <56AB0472.9060707@shiresoft.com> References: <56AB0472.9060707@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <56AB8E01.4090205@bitsavers.org> only problem would be formatting them for the Symbolics.. On 1/28/16 10:19 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I just realized, that I have 2 8" SMD drives that are bolted together > (along with their power supplies). I have *no* idea of their > operational condition (but physically they're in good shape). If you > want to come down and collect them, they're yours. They are way too > heavy to ship. > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 29 10:12:18 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:12:18 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> <56AAC275.2020406@sydex.com> <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <56AB8F62.8070409@bitsavers.org> On 1/29/16 8:04 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > The one thing I'm not seeing mentioned in re VirtualBox is that what if > you have a legacy Win 98SE system with hardware in it, like a GPIB card > or sound card? Or if you have software that talks to hardware via > serial or parallel ports eg. eprom burners, Zector ZVG vector graphic > driver for MAME, etc. > A cycle-accurate simulator, like MAME, may be more appropriate in those cases. Physical device pass through doesn't exist (yet) though. That is one thing I think a lot of people would be interested in for legacy hw though then you run into the problem of finding modern hardware with old slots, since the simulation will give you a 100x hit in performance. From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 29 10:36:27 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Shiresoft) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:36:27 -0800 Subject: CDC Sabre 8" SMD blues In-Reply-To: <56AB8E01.4090205@bitsavers.org> References: <56AB0472.9060707@shiresoft.com> <56AB8E01.4090205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Yea, that's unfortunately the problem for any disks for the Symbolics. :-( TTFN - Guy > On Jan 29, 2016, at 8:06 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > only problem would be formatting them for the Symbolics.. > >> On 1/28/16 10:19 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> I just realized, that I have 2 8" SMD drives that are bolted together >> (along with their power supplies). I have *no* idea of their >> operational condition (but physically they're in good shape). If you >> want to come down and collect them, they're yours. They are way too >> heavy to ship. >> > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 11:02:47 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:02:47 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> <56AAC275.2020406@sydex.com> <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <56AB9B37.4050709@gmail.com> On 1/29/16 8:04 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 1/28/2016 8:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> On faster, more modern systems, I use VirtualBox. Just not worth the >> extra trouble finding drivers--but I suspect 98SE will run on P4 >> systems as well. > > The one thing I'm not seeing mentioned in re VirtualBox is that what > if you have a legacy Win 98SE system with hardware in it, like a GPIB > card or sound card? Or if you have software that talks to hardware > via serial or parallel ports eg. eprom burners, Zector ZVG vector > graphic driver for MAME, etc. Serial ports can be forwarded to real hardware (as can USB ports, though that's less applicable for vintage hardware). Unless you have a very special-purpose sound card, that's covered by the VM's sound hardware (which can simulate a Sound-Blaster 16 compatible, IIRC). For everything else, you're SOL. I could see it being possible to modify VirtualBox to support parallel port forwarding or other exotic hardware but as you move away from generic interfaces like serial/parallel it would get a lot more difficult. > > The other hassle is having to essentially rebuild an Win98 (or any > other) machine from scratch in order to try to replicate an existing > setup. I haven't seen any way to "capture" an existing machine and > all its disk partitions -- especially when there's multiple partitions > of different types -- and import it into the virtual world. That'd > be great. It's certainly possible to get disk images of all drives in the old system -- I'd use an external IDE/SATA -> USB adapter and do the "dd" equivalent on the OS of your choice, then there are tools to convert to the VM's native disk image format. It's not trivial, but it's also far from difficult. Windows 95-based OSes are more resilient to hardware changes than the NT-based OSes, mostly because 95 can fall back to BIOS calls to access the hard disk so even if the hard drive controller changes it can still boot. So once you have your disk images in hand, you can set them up in a VM (configured with Windows 95-compatible hardware), boot the system and let Plug 'N Play find all the new hardware. I've found this works maybe 80% of the time (and on a VM, if it doesn't work you haven't really lost anything but a bit of time...). Then again, it's been awhile since I last had to do this; as they say, your mileage may vary. - Josh > > - J. > From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Jan 29 11:19:26 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:19:26 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> <56AAC275.2020406@sydex.com> <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <00bc01d15ab9$356ab410$a0401c30$@net> > The other hassle is having to > essentially rebuild an Win98 (or any > other) machine from scratch in order to try to replicate an existing > setup. I haven't seen any way to "capture" an existing machine and all > its disk partitions -- especially when there's multiple partitions of > different types > -- and import it into the virtual > world. That'd be great. Not for free but AFAIK VMWare Pro allows you to do this. -Ali From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 29 11:39:58 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:39:58 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> <56AAC275.2020406@sydex.com> <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <56ABA3EE.5070500@sydex.com> On 01/29/2016 08:04 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > The one thing I'm not seeing mentioned in re VirtualBox is that what > if you have a legacy Win 98SE system with hardware in it, like a GPIB > card or sound card? Or if you have software that talks to hardware > via serial or parallel ports eg. eprom burners, Zector ZVG vector > graphic driver for MAME, etc. As others have mentioned, the best approach is to keep systems that support what you need "just in case". In my case, some of the hardware is of my own design and construction--and employs the ISA interface. Sure, it's possible to redesign the hardware and write some new drivers, but for the frequency of use, it's just not worth it. So I keep at least one operating 8088, 80286, 80386, 80486, P1, P2 and P3 system around. On many of my systems, DOS 7.x (Win98SE real-mode command prompt) is also useful. Real MS-DOS also for the non-Win 9x capable systems. It's not a big thing--just pull an appropriate machine out of the stack, hook it up and you're off and running. But VB is very useful in lots of cases. In other words, I don't think there's a "one size fits all" solution. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 29 11:50:16 2016 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:50:16 -0600 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <00bc01d15ab9$356ab410$a0401c30$@net> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> <56AAC275.2020406@sydex.com> <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> <00bc01d15ab9$356ab410$a0401c30$@net> Message-ID: At 11:19 AM 1/29/2016, Ali wrote: >> The other hassle is having to essentially rebuild an Win98 (or any >> other) machine from scratch in order to try to replicate an existing >> setup. I haven't seen any way to "capture" an existing machine and all >> its disk partitions -- especially when there's multiple partitions of >> different types -- and import it into the virtual world. That'd be great. > >Not for free but AFAIK VMWare Pro allows you to do this. Yes, the VMware Converter can do this. It'll create a VM from a disk image. No one has mentioned the Windows Virtual PC, a Microsoft product, that lets you run Windows XP apps in a virtual environment under Windows 7 Pro, letting XP apps run in their natural window on the 7 desktop, or you can run the virtual XP machine desktop in its own window. It will also run Windows 98, with a few gotchas: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/virtual_pc_guy/archive/2010/05/27/installing-windows-98-on-windows-virtual-pc.aspx - John From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jan 29 11:56:04 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:56:04 -0600 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56ABA7B4.8000801@pico-systems.com> On 01/28/2016 10:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hello, all, > > I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal that happens to > be missing the fuse and fuse holder. Unlike a lot of 1960s and 1970s > gear, it's not round. It's square. Is this a standard IBM thing from > the 70s/80s? Anyone know where I could get one? It seems to snap in > and probably fell out at some point under its previous owner. I'd open up the case and see if you can find out who made the whole fuse holder assembly. Lots of outfits made "fancy" fuse holders that were different entirely for visual appeal. Or, just browse through the Digi-Key or other catalogs and try to find a fuse holder that fits the opening in the case. I'm sure it was NOT a custom IBM part. > Also, I found only a little info on it from Googling. Later IBM ASCII > terminals emulated ANSI command or Wyse-50 or something. I couldn't > find anything on the 3101. Is it a glass TTY or does it respond to > any cursor positioning, etc. commands? > > It definitely has cursor positioning commands. I ran one on a CP/M system, and added in the cursor and other commands on a configurable editor and used it for some time. Jon From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 12:19:23 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 14:19:23 -0400 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56ABAD2B.2090309@gmail.com> On 2016-01-29 12:28 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hello, all, > > I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal that happens to > be missing the fuse and fuse holder. Unlike a lot of 1960s and 1970s > gear, it's not round. It's square. Is this a standard IBM thing from > the 70s/80s? Anyone know where I could get one? It seems to snap in > and probably fell out at some point under its previous owner. > > Also, I found only a little info on it from Googling. Later IBM ASCII > terminals emulated ANSI command or Wyse-50 or something. I couldn't > find anything on the 3101. Is it a glass TTY or does it respond to > any cursor positioning, etc. commands? > > Thanks for any tips and info. Worst case, I can bodge in a fuse on > the inside, but if I can find a replacement holder, I'd like that > more. > > Thanks, > > -ethan I did a quick google search for 'ibm 3101' and among the hits was a manual on archive.org, www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/31xx/ there are two manuals one of which is the "Terminal Description" that seems to have plenty of information about the data stream. The protocol is unusual at least the mod 12 is one of the character mode terminals supports RS/232 and current loop. The weak point is the keyboard, the key modules have a leaf spring in them that flexes every time you press a key and they break. The good news is almost every IBM keyboard from that time uses exactly the same key module so spares may not be hard to come by. When I was servicing machine with this type of keyboard more than 30 years ago, I carried a dozen spare key modules in my trunk all the time. Paul. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 12:27:42 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 13:27:42 -0500 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: <56ABA7B4.8000801@pico-systems.com> References: <56ABA7B4.8000801@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 01/28/2016 10:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal... > > I'd open up the case and see if you can find out who made the whole fuse > holder assembly. Lots of outfits made "fancy" fuse holders that were > different entirely for visual appeal. Or, just browse through the Digi-Key > or other catalogs and try to find a fuse holder that fits the opening in the > case. I'm sure it was NOT a custom IBM part. It's not a custom IBM part, but it is an uncommon one. As mentioned earlier today, it appears to be a Littlefuse series 348. I've ordered a replacement. >> Also, I found only a little info on it from Googling... >> > It definitely has cursor positioning commands. I ran one on a CP/M system, > and added in the cursor and other commands on a configurable editor and used > it for some time. After my initial post, I did find a mention of positionable cursor and such in some docs on Bitsavers and Manx. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 12:40:15 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 13:40:15 -0500 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: <56ABAD2B.2090309@gmail.com> References: <56ABAD2B.2090309@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2016-01-29 12:28 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal... > > I did a quick google search for 'ibm 3101' and among the hits was a manual > on archive.org, www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/31xx/ there are two manuals one > of which is the "Terminal Description" that seems to have plenty of > information about the data stream. I quickly found GA18-2015-3 ("An Introduction to the IBM 3101 Display Terminal") last night. The more useful one is GA18-2033-2 ("IBM 3101 Display Terminal Description"). Figure 2-12 on pages 2-20 through 2-23 have the full command set. It appears to be nominally VT52 compatible (ESC-A through ESC-D for cursor movement, ESC-H and ESC-Y for 'home' and 'set cursor address'...) The 3101 command set has plenty of additional commands, and does not implement a few of the full VT52 command set, but as soon as I get the terminal all cleaned and checked out, I can probably tell the host I have a VT52 and get some useful results from it. > The protocol is unusual at least the mod 12 is one of the character mode > terminals supports RS/232 and current loop. Yep. Saw that. I might use the current loop (I have a few devices that support it), but at first, RS-232 is quite handy. > The weak point is the keyboard, > the key modules have a leaf spring in them that flexes every time you press > a key and they break. Good to know. > The good news is almost every IBM keyboard from that > time uses exactly the same key module so spares may not be hard to come by. > When I was servicing machine with this type of keyboard more than 30 years > ago, I carried a dozen spare key modules in my trunk all the time. Very good to know. Thanks for the tips on the keyboard! Unfortunately for me, my friend who dropped it off couldn't find the keyboard ("it's in the basement...") so I won't be able to make much progress until I get that. -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 29 12:51:52 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 18:51:52 -0000 Subject: Last call: free machines in Sweden In-Reply-To: <20160129103821.GA15994@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160129103821.GA15994@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <004b01d15ac6$1e876830$5b963890$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus > Pihlgren > Sent: 29 January 2016 10:38 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Last call: free machines in Sweden > > Hi > > My employer is moving house and need to clear out some old stuff. We have > ported to many, many Unix systems over the years and have kept some of > the machines. > > Available is: > > 1x IBM RS/6000 big and beige > 1x Bull DPX/2 > 1x Concurrent Computer Corporation in rack 1x Sperry unix machine 1x NCR > (same as above, other label) > > Possibly 1 VAX 4000 and possibly one Alphaserver 2000. > What kind of VAX 4000? Not that I am likely to make the trip, unfortunately :-( Regards Rob > Pickup only. We will remove hard drives since they contain source code. > > In a few weeks, this will be gone. > > A few pictures here: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/jobb_vind/ > > Items are in Uppsala, Sweden. > > /P From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 13:17:58 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 14:17:58 -0500 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> <56AAC275.2020406@sydex.com> <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> <56ABA3EE.5070500@sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 12:39 PM > As others have mentioned, the best approach is to keep systems that > support what you need "just in case". In my case, some of the hardware > is of my own design and construction--and employs the ISA interface. > > Sure, it's possible to redesign the hardware and write some new drivers, > but for the frequency of use, it's just not worth it. So I keep at > least one operating 8088, 80286, 80386, 80486, P1, P2 and P3 system around. > > On many of my systems, DOS 7.x (Win98SE real-mode command prompt) is > also useful. Real MS-DOS also for the non-Win 9x capable systems. > > It's not a big thing--just pull an appropriate machine out of the stack, > hook it up and you're off and running. > > But VB is very useful in lots of cases. > > In other words, I don't think there's a "one size fits all" solution. > > --Chuck ----- Reply ----- Agreed. FWIW, I recycled a lot of PC stuff after my VCF ban but I do still have about 50 or so system boxes (mostly IBM) awaiting their turn; probably a third or so are directly W98SE compatible and some even still have W98SE CoAs on the side. Of course shipping (from Toronto) would not be cheap, although if Jerome wants one I could probably deliver it since he's also in Toronto ;-). It's fairly low on my priority list though, so it might be a while before I look through the piles; if/when I do I'll start with the P4s and leave the older ones till last, JIC. m From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 29 01:23:40 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 23:23:40 -0800 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56AB137C.7010903@sydex.com> On 01/28/2016 08:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal that happens to > be missing the fuse and fuse holder. Unlike a lot of 1960s and 1970s > gear, it's not round. It's square. Is this a standard IBM thing from > the 70s/80s? Anyone know where I could get one? It seems to snap in > and probably fell out at some point under its previous owner. Something like this? http://www.amazon.com/SEACHOICE-PANEL-MOUNT-FUSE-HOLDER/dp/B0006ZCDQ8 --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 08:56:14 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:56:14 -0500 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: <56AB137C.7010903@sydex.com> References: <56AB137C.7010903@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 2:23 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/28/2016 08:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> >> I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal that happens to >> be missing the fuse and fuse holder. Unlike a lot of 1960s and 1970s >> gear, it's not round. It's square. > > Something like this? > > http://www.amazon.com/SEACHOICE-PANEL-MOUNT-FUSE-HOLDER/dp/B0006ZCDQ8 Not that one. That one has a square outside, yes, but a round body and a nut. Based on a later message here, the 3101 looks to have something from the Littlefuse 348 series (square hole, square body, locking plastic tabs). But thanks for the suggestion. -ethan From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Jan 29 14:59:27 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 14:59:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 2:39 AM, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Thu, 28 Jan 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal that happens to >>> be missing the fuse and fuse holder. Unlike a lot of 1960s and 1970s >>> gear, it's not round. It's square... >> >> There aren't too many US made square panel mount fuse holders. > > Indeed. I've seen them, but they aren't ordinary. There was another square faced panel mount fuse holder that used to be pretty common but I can't remember who made it. I want to say it was Mountain Switch but I don't think it was them. Unlike the Littelfuse 348 series, it has a round, threaded body with a small hole in the outer edge of the square frame where you push a small screwdriver to release the cap's locking tab. >> It sounds like it might be a Littelfuse 348 series. >> >> http://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuse-blocks-fuseholders-and-fuse-accessories/fuseholders/348/348870.aspx > > That looks like the thing. Thanks! I couldn't tell from the grainy b/w photo I found online of the rear of the terminal if it had a black or red fuse holder cap. They also made them in a few other colors, but black and red were the most common. One thing that will differ on the current production 348 series fuse holder caps vs the vintage ones is they no longer have white paint for the inset lettering (another victim of RoHS). You can simulate the original effect with a white-out pen and just scratch off any excess outside the recessed lettering with a fingernail. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 15:23:48 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 21:23:48 -0000 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> <56AAC275.2020406@sydex.com> <56AB8D71.8010205@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <004601d15adb$580efd10$082cf730$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > js at cimmeri.com > Sent: 29 January 2016 16:04 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? > > > > On 1/28/2016 8:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > On faster, more modern systems, I use VirtualBox. Just not worth the > > extra trouble finding drivers--but I suspect 98SE will run on P4 > > systems as well. > > The one thing I'm not seeing mentioned > in re VirtualBox is that what if you > have a legacy Win 98SE system with > hardware in it, like a GPIB card or > sound card? Or if you have software > that talks to hardware via serial or > parallel ports eg. eprom burners, Zector ZVG vector graphic driver for MAME, > etc. VMWare Player, which is free will re-map modern PCI-Express parallel and serial ports which have odd IRQ's back to the ones legacy drivers expect. I keep a copy of XP in a VMware Player VM for my old Parallel Port JTAG programmer for some old Spartan 3 boards I have. > > The other hassle is having to > essentially rebuild an Win98 (or any > other) machine from scratch in order to try to replicate an existing setup. I > haven't seen any way to "capture" an existing machine and all its disk > partitions -- especially when there's multiple partitions of different types > -- and import it into the virtual > world. That'd be great. > > - J. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 16:50:24 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 14:50:24 -0800 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 8:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hello, all, > > > Also, I found only a little info on it from Googling. Later IBM ASCII > terminals emulated ANSI command or Wyse-50 or something. I couldn't > find anything on the 3101. Is it a glass TTY or does it respond to > any cursor positioning, etc. commands? > This is the Multics Release 12 Terminal Type File (TTF.ttf) entry: /***** IBM 3101 ASCII CRT terminal series *****/ terminal_type: IBM3101 like ASCII_CRT; modes: default,ll80,pl23,can_type=replace,hndlquit,scroll,fulldpx,echoplex,crecho,lfecho,tabs,^tabecho; initial_string: ESC L (7) <(10) ESC 0> CR; This is the Multics Release 12 C compiler terminfo entry for the 3101: # @(#)ibm.ti 1.3 (1.10 2/22/83) ibm|ibm3101|3101|i3101|IBM 3101-10, cr=^M, cud1=^J, ind=^J, bel=^G, tbc=\EH, hts=\E0, am, cub1=^H, clear=\EK, lines#24, cols#80, cuf1=\EC, cuu1=\EA, ed=\EJ, el=\EI, kcud1=\EB, kcub1=\ED, kcuf1=\EC, kcuu1=\EA, home=\EH, cup=\EY%p1%' '%+%c%p2%' '%+%c, ht=^I, Attached is ibm3101.ctl.lisp, the 3101 bindings for the LISP interpreter. -- Charles From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 16:50:24 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 14:50:24 -0800 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 8:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hello, all, > > > Also, I found only a little info on it from Googling. Later IBM ASCII > terminals emulated ANSI command or Wyse-50 or something. I couldn't > find anything on the 3101. Is it a glass TTY or does it respond to > any cursor positioning, etc. commands? > This is the Multics Release 12 Terminal Type File (TTF.ttf) entry: /***** IBM 3101 ASCII CRT terminal series *****/ terminal_type: IBM3101 like ASCII_CRT; modes: default,ll80,pl23,can_type=replace,hndlquit,scroll,fulldpx,echoplex,crecho,lfecho,tabs,^tabecho; initial_string: ESC L (7) <(10) ESC 0> CR; This is the Multics Release 12 C compiler terminfo entry for the 3101: # @(#)ibm.ti 1.3 (1.10 2/22/83) ibm|ibm3101|3101|i3101|IBM 3101-10, cr=^M, cud1=^J, ind=^J, bel=^G, tbc=\EH, hts=\E0, am, cub1=^H, clear=\EK, lines#24, cols#80, cuf1=\EC, cuu1=\EA, ed=\EJ, el=\EI, kcud1=\EB, kcub1=\ED, kcuf1=\EC, kcuu1=\EA, home=\EH, cup=\EY%p1%' '%+%c%p2%' '%+%c, ht=^I, Attached is ibm3101.ctl.lisp, the 3101 bindings for the LISP interpreter. -- Charles From rob at bitscience.ca Fri Jan 29 23:18:48 2016 From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 21:18:48 -0800 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 28, 2016, at 5:01 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > Actually, though, it was developed on multiple CPU platforms, and one > was an in-house board design based around Intel's RISC chip, the i860 > -- codenamed the N10. NT allegedly stood for "N Ten" before MS > marketing retconned it to "New Technology?. This is exactly correct, although marketing had nothing to do with the ?NT? retcon; we did it ourselves. - Rob ps: the i860 was not a pleasant thing. There was much rejoicing in the halls the day we decided to drop it as a target architecture. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 23:46:45 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 00:46:45 -0500 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 5:50 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > This is the Multics Release 12 C compiler terminfo entry for the 3101: > > # @(#)ibm.ti 1.3 (1.10 2/22/83) > > ibm|ibm3101|3101|i3101|IBM 3101-10, > cr=^M, cud1=^J, ind=^J, bel=^G, tbc=\EH, hts=\E0, am, cub1=^H, > clear=\EK, lines#24, cols#80, cuf1=\EC, cuu1=\EA, ed=\EJ, el=\EI, > kcud1=\EB, kcub1=\ED, kcuf1=\EC, kcuu1=\EA, > home=\EH, cup=\EY%p1%' '%+%c%p2%' '%+%c, ht=^I, Thanks for that. Based on that as a start, I found this in an old USENET post... ftp://ftp.u-aizu.ac.jp/pub/misc/device/terminal/ibm_3161.termcap.txt I4|ibm|ibm3101|3101|i3101|IBM 3101-10:\ :do=^J:ct=\EH:st=\E0:\ :if=/usr/lib/tabset/ibm3101:\ :am:le=^H:bs:cl=\EK:li#24:co#80:nd=\EC:up=\EA:cd=\EJ:ce=\EI:\ :kd=\EB:kl=\ED:kr=\EC:ku=\EA:ho=\EH:cm=\EY%+\40%+\40:pt: > Attached is ibm3101.ctl.lisp, the 3101 bindings for the LISP interpreter. Don't happen to need that, but I should probably mention that this list strips attachments. Thanks! -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 23:46:45 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 00:46:45 -0500 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 5:50 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > This is the Multics Release 12 C compiler terminfo entry for the 3101: > > # @(#)ibm.ti 1.3 (1.10 2/22/83) > > ibm|ibm3101|3101|i3101|IBM 3101-10, > cr=^M, cud1=^J, ind=^J, bel=^G, tbc=\EH, hts=\E0, am, cub1=^H, > clear=\EK, lines#24, cols#80, cuf1=\EC, cuu1=\EA, ed=\EJ, el=\EI, > kcud1=\EB, kcub1=\ED, kcuf1=\EC, kcuu1=\EA, > home=\EH, cup=\EY%p1%' '%+%c%p2%' '%+%c, ht=^I, Thanks for that. Based on that as a start, I found this in an old USENET post... ftp://ftp.u-aizu.ac.jp/pub/misc/device/terminal/ibm_3161.termcap.txt I4|ibm|ibm3101|3101|i3101|IBM 3101-10:\ :do=^J:ct=\EH:st=\E0:\ :if=/usr/lib/tabset/ibm3101:\ :am:le=^H:bs:cl=\EK:li#24:co#80:nd=\EC:up=\EA:cd=\EJ:ce=\EI:\ :kd=\EB:kl=\ED:kr=\EC:ku=\EA:ho=\EH:cm=\EY%+\40%+\40:pt: > Attached is ibm3101.ctl.lisp, the 3101 bindings for the LISP interpreter. Don't happen to need that, but I should probably mention that this list strips attachments. Thanks! -ethan From evan at snarc.net Sat Jan 30 00:57:04 2016 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 01:57:04 -0500 Subject: VCF East exhibit registration is open Message-ID: <56AC5EC0.1070800@snarc.net> VCF East is April 15-17; the exhibit halls are open April 16-17 (April 15 is all tech repair classes -- to be announced soon). Click here to register an exhibit: http://tinyurl.com/htlfsmh From mark at markesystems.com Fri Jan 29 23:10:05 2016 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 21:10:05 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > > Win-98 SE ... it would have been nice if it recognized USB storage > > devices natively. > > There is that package you can add (my copy is in a self-extracting > archive, > called "nusb23e.exe") that recognizes USB drives, etc. I run a number of > USB > devices (memory sticks, mice, etc) on my 98SE's and they all work fine. Thanks for the tip - I wish I'd known about that 15 years ago! From: "Jerome H. Fine" >> >mark at markesystems.com wrote: >> >>> QUESTION: Is it even possible to run Win98SE on a current >>> Intel I7 CPU with SATA hard disk drives? I realize that it might >> >> Almost certainly not, at least practically. Even if you can get it to >> boot and install, it will have no idea how to handle any of the modern > > Then I am really confused. I have two older systems that > are able to run 64-bit Windows 7, an E8400 and a Q9550. > Both take SATA drives which are still available. The mother > > I can also still boot from both system using an old DOS 3.5" > floppy media and run Ghost 7.0 with these old SATA drives, > but as far as I can understand, using the device drivers on the > floppy drive. I believe that Win98 tries to use its own drivers for disk, but if it can't find any that work it just uses the ones built into the BIOS. Performance suffers, because all disk I/O becomes blocking, but it still works. With a modern disk with built-in cache, one probably wouldn't even notice the difference (except for the floppy). > Is it likely that either of these two systems be able to run > Win98SE with the SATA hard drives, in one case 500 GB > each and the other system has 1 TB drives. In that case, it I would expect that you could successfully boot and install Win98, although you couldn't use all the drive in one volume (FAT32 is good for a little over 100 gig); I've never tried partitioning up a terabyte drive and running Win98 on a appropriately-sized partition, but it seems like it might work OK. As above, the BIOS will take care of the fact that Win98 never heard of SATA, and also abstract the USB keyboard and I think the mouse to look like AT-type devices. As I mentioned, though, it won't know about the video adapter, so that will run in VGA 640x480 16-color mode; the sound card won't be available either, nor the network interface. VirtualBox simulates all nice period-style hardware for those things. > As I mentioned, the only two applications I would run would > be the DOS variant of Ersatz-11 and Netscape 7.2 for e-mail > and newsgroups. I suspect that both of those would run on Windows XP, and VirtualBox handles that extremely well. From: Chuck Guzis > I didn't mention that I've got 98SE running on an 820 chipset > (RIMM/RDRAM is silly cheap now) with a Tuallie 1.4GHz in a Powerleap > slocket. It doesn't much agree with the Crystal CS4622 audio, but > perhaps that's just a matter of finding the right driver. As I predicted... :-) >> Windows 98 was supposed to support a maximum of 2GB of memory, however >> it has a bug in the Vcache driver which causes problems unless you limit > Exactly what I've done with 440GX system. Using a different XMS driver, > I keep a 1GB RAMdisk there. But it runs quite nicely in just 64 or 128 meg, which was much more typical of a machine of that period. > On faster, more modern systems, I use VirtualBox. Just not worth the > extra trouble finding drivers--but I suspect 98SE will run on P4 systems Yup, that's what seems to work best for me. From: "js at cimmeri.com" > The one thing I'm not seeing mentioned > in re VirtualBox is that what if you > have a legacy Win 98SE system with > hardware in it, like a GPIB card or > sound card? Or if you have software > that talks to hardware via serial or > parallel ports eg. eprom burners, Zector > ZVG vector graphic driver for MAME, etc. Yup, that's true. VirtualBox will provide one or two com ports (optionally mapped to the real host ports, or just pipes to other virtual machines), but it doesn't support the parallel port. And as you've pointed out, any specialized hardware won't work at all (because the backplane doesn't really exist). > The other hassle is having to > essentially rebuild an Win98 (or any > other) machine from scratch in order to > try to replicate an existing setup. I Also true... From: Josh Dersch > everything else, you're SOL. I could see it being possible to modify > VirtualBox to support parallel port forwarding or other exotic hardware Wow! I guess it is open source, but that would be quite a bit of work, I expect. If you do it, let me know - I've got an old Needham's PROM programmer that would be nice to have working again. From: John Foust > No one has mentioned the Windows Virtual PC, a Microsoft product, > that lets you run Windows XP apps in a virtual environment under > Windows 7 Pro, letting XP apps run in their natural window on > the 7 desktop, or you can run the virtual XP machine desktop > in its own window. I used an earlier version of Virtual PC on XP, and found that it worked fairly well, although it was very resource intensive. So many applications failed to run correctly on Win7 that Microsoft felt compelled to make a very tightly integrated version for that operating system (Pro or greater only); it was pretty neat how tightly integrated it was. That's how I ran QuickBooks and a couple of other recalcitrant programs, but it wasn't a panacea. In particular, applications that had several programs running simultaneously, especially if they communicated via DDE (DDEML) were still broken, and the tight integration was always a little scary to me. (If I fired up a "stand-alone" XP machine, it would always want to log off or shut down the one that had been running some other application, and because of the Draconian security, I was never sure that I'd be able to get it back...) > It will also run Windows 98, with a few gotchas: This is what I did with the earlier Virtual PC on top of XP, and it worked fairly well. Like VirtualBox, it's free, but I find that VirtualBox tries to do less integration "magic", and therefore feels like a more stable and clearly delineated product. I've seen no mention of Virtual PC on Win8 / 8.1 / 10 - does it still exist, and is that "XP-mode" feature still available? ~~ Mark Moulding From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 03:16:01 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 01:16:01 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> References: <56AA45C5.4070409@compsys.to> <56AA60A3.507@sydex.com> Message-ID: <003a01d15b3e$d6ebe9a0$84c3bce0$@gmail.com> I managed to run Win98 SE (the Second Edition is important!) on a Core Duo E6700 2.6 GHz with SATA. But it was a very hard job to get it going. The motherboard still had a legacy PCI slot on it which was helpful. Here is the procedure I had to go through. You'll need a Win95 or 98 "DOS" boot disc properly configured to recognize your CD-ROM to start the install process. You will probably need a trip to your BIOS to enable legacy mouse and legacy hard drive modes. First you have to remove memory until it has only 1 GB left while you install. Later you boot into safe mode and add two lines to your C:\Windows\system.ini to limit memory: [386 Enh] MaxPhysPage = 30000 [vcache] MaxFileCache = 393216 Then after install you have to fight the hardware and drivers pretty hard until it boots without crashing. Boot with step by step confirmation and logging on, and watch the bootlog.txt to see where it fails. You will need many trips to Safe Mode and Device Manger to remove all the PCIe hardware it discovers but can't deal with. In my case: - disable the hard disk PCI controllers - disable the built in Ethernet controller - Changing the video driver to the MiniPort Standard VESA allowed me to boot up to GUI without crashing. I then had a hard time to find a driver to allow high res graphics, but eventually found one online that worked, don't remember what it was. - For Ethernet I just put an older 100 Mb generic PCI card that 98 could deal with, as it obviously could not do anything with the onboard 1GB Ethernet. - I don't use sound, but if you wanted some you would do the same trick, stick an old PCI sound card in there. - USB mouse seems to work, albeit a bit choppy - finally you can put back the rest of your memory in and you should be good to go. Beware, once you do this, no more booting into safe mode unless you remove the extra memory. - I could run Explorer 5.5, but never 6.0. This gives you a tiny bit of the web for emergency purposes. Needless to say, you'd only boot to this Windows 98 for retro-computing purposes. Eventually I moved my main Win98 machine to a Dolch 65 (Pentium II 350 MHz), which has 5.25" floppy support, two serial and one parallel ports, plenty of PCI slots and more importantly an ISA slot. A much better match for Win98. As expected, installing Windows 98 on it was a breeze, as was NT, and the tougher one was Windows XP. I also successfully installed the 2010 version of Crunchbang Linux on it (runs within the 256 MB of RAM!). It is now my main retro-computing workhorse. There is a good chance one of the 5 OS's (counting 16-bit Win98 DOS) will have a driver or a utility for any old hardware I want to drive. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 10:41 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? The latest rig that I've run 98SE on is a Intel P3 (440GX) with 2GB of memory. I can do it, but it took the "unofficial final service pack" to reduce the amount of memory to something reasonable. Drivers, I think would be the stumbling block on modern hardware. I'd use VirtualBox in any case to deal with that issue. I've certainly done with other old systems. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 30 08:57:02 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 09:57:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? Message-ID: <20160130145702.A253518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: CuriousMarc > I could run Explorer 5.5, but never 6.0. ?? 6.0 runs fine on all my 98SE machines. If you need to get to a later Web site (many don't work with older IE's now), there is a version of Opera (9.80, Version/10.63) which works under 98SE and makes most sites accessible. There are only a _very_ few where I have to use another browser running under a later Windows. Noel From james.h.simpson at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 09:36:15 2016 From: james.h.simpson at gmail.com (Jim Simpson) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:36:15 -0700 Subject: Big-Board II & Micro Cornucopia User Group Disks? Message-ID: <56acd889.a7233c0a.11bea.7610@mx.google.com> I'm a retired software engineer. My first home computer was a Z80 CP/M system built on the Big-Board II back in the mid '80s. I bought a bare board kit and went from there. It took me several months to collect all the parts before I had a running system. After discovering some very old M80 assembler listings while rummaging in my basement, I've been bit by the "nostalgia bug" so I dug out my old system and powered it on. It still runs after all of these years. The problem is that I've lost most of my old 5.25 media and therefore the system utilities . I'm looking for any Big-Board II system disk images/files I can find. I'm also trying to recover all of the Micro Cornucopia UG diskette data. Ultimately I want to put all of that old data on optical media for safe keeping. I'm looking for any BB-II stuff or Micro-C user group disk stuff. Help here will be much appreciated! Thanks, Jim Simpson From seefriek at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 12:39:27 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 13:39:27 -0500 Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder Message-ID: Wow...that fired some old brain cells. I saved one of these around 86-87 and had it hooked to a VAX/BSD4 system for a while. All I really remember about it was that it was pretty well made but after wasting too much time mucking about I could never finesse a termcap entry for it that didn't have some more or less annoying corner-case breakage. I suspected that even though it had a serial port and "VT compatibility", IBM didn't much want to encourage anyone hooking one up to a non-IBM system. KJ From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 13:28:03 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 13:28:03 -0600 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> Message-ID: <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016, mark at markesystems.com wrote: > From: "js at cimmeri.com" > >The one thing I'm not seeing mentioned > >in re VirtualBox is that what if you > >have a legacy Win 98SE system with > >hardware in it, like a GPIB card or > >sound card? Or if you have software > >that talks to hardware via serial or > >parallel ports eg. eprom burners, Zector > >ZVG vector graphic driver for MAME, etc. > > Yup, that's true. VirtualBox will provide one or two com ports (optionally > mapped to the real host ports, or just pipes to other virtual machines), but > it doesn't support the parallel port. And as you've pointed out, any > specialized hardware won't work at all (because the backplane doesn't really > exist). I haven't attempted this yet, but a while back I ran across a thread saying you could use parallel port passthrough in a limited fashion: -- Eric Christopherson From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 13:29:48 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 20:29:48 +0100 Subject: What to Do with a PS/2? In-Reply-To: References: <56A6BEF4.80407@gmail.com> <56E70631-FF3C-4B47-93F0-466772995AA2@nf6x.net> <56A7B646.6010307@sydex.com> <56A90090.6090505@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 30 January 2016 at 06:18, Robert Ferguson wrote: > This is exactly correct, although marketing had nothing to do with the ?NT? retcon; we did it ourselves. > > - Rob > > ps: the i860 was not a pleasant thing. There was much rejoicing in the halls the day we decided to drop it as a target architecture. Wow! Thanks for that! My compliments on your work. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 30 13:41:00 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 11:41:00 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> I managed to soak up extra memory when installing 98SE by using Japheth's HIMEMX driver, coupled with XMSDISK: In AUTOEXEC.BAT: SET TEMPDRIVE=S SET TEMPSIZE=768000 C:\XMS\XMSDISK\XMSDSK %TEMPDRIVE%: %TEMPSIZE% /y /t Gives you a 768MB RAMdrive as drive letter S: The drive is loaded in the *top* of XMS. FWIW, Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 13:58:52 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 12:58:52 -0700 Subject: Big-Board II & Micro Cornucopia User Group Disks? In-Reply-To: <56acd889.a7233c0a.11bea.7610@mx.google.com> References: <56acd889.a7233c0a.11bea.7610@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 8:36 AM, Jim Simpson wrote: > I'm also trying to recover all of the Micro Cornucopia UG diskette data. [...] > I'm looking for any BB-II stuff or Micro-C user group disk stuff. I recently was given a Xerox 820 board (based on the Big Board design), and a CD titled "Sourdough Jim's CP/M Archive Disk (Includes PC-Blue and DKA MS-DOS Libraries)", dated 06/25/2000. It is mostly a collection of other archives. The label lists "Micro Cornucopia Kaypro CP/M Library (partial, 20 disks)". I don't know whether it contains anything relevant specifically to the Big Board II. I've temporarily put the iso image on Google Drive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2C3q_hToB5PaEpKX2pKT05CaVk/view?usp=sharing From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Jan 30 13:59:30 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 11:59:30 -0800 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> Message-ID: <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> While on this topic what are you guys using to patch up your new/reinstalls of Win98SE? For Win2K there is Unofficial SP5.2 and WinXP has Unofficial SP4. I have found a number of unofficial SPs for Win98SE, namely AutoPatcher 2007 w/ the 2008 Update and SP2 v3.52, but I am not sure which is the better one in terms of installation ease/completeness. Any votes for either of those or a third choice? -Ali From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 14:10:45 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 12:10:45 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <20160130145702.A253518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160130145702.A253518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <581A4620-5A8C-4A17-91DF-5DA9402F753B@gmail.com> I am 0 for 3 in having IE 6.0 work on my Win98 machines. Just can't connect to the internet anymore when I do this. Connectivity returns when I downgrade to 5.5. But others do report having success with 6.0 on Win98, so I'm not sure what's wrong with me... I'll try Opera, thanks for the tip. Marc On Jan 30, 2016, at 6:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: CuriousMarc > >> I could run Explorer 5.5, but never 6.0. > > ?? 6.0 runs fine on all my 98SE machines. > > If you need to get to a later Web site (many don't work with older IE's now), > there is a version of Opera (9.80, Version/10.63) which works under 98SE and > makes most sites accessible. There are only a _very_ few where I have to use > another browser running under a later Windows. > > Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 14:29:32 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 13:29:32 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option Message-ID: Does anyone have a PDP-11/03 or LSI-11 with the KEV11-C CIS (Commercial Instruction Set) option? It may have also been known as DIS (Dibol Instruction Set). It apparently consists of two microcode ROM chips (MICROMs), 23-004B5 and 23-005B5. Last month I posted here about building a circuit to dump the contents of MICROMs: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/albums/72157662054690240 I've dumped the base LSI-11 instruction set chips and the EIS/FIS chip. I've partially disassembled the former: https://github.com/brouhaha/lsi11uc and verified that the latter matches the EIS/FIS microcode source code provided with the KUV11 writable control store support software. I'd like to dump the CIS microcode ROMs as well. The resulting dump would be usable by anyone with a KUV11. I'm contemplating developing a MICROM replacement board, which would be useful for those without a KUV11. I've made more progress with the WD9000 Pascal Microengine microcode than the LSI-11 microcode because someone provided a photomicrograph of the CP2161 control chip and I was able to dump the PLAs. I should be getting a photomicrograph of the CP1621 control chip of the LSI-11 soon, and will be able to do the same for it. From useddec at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 15:10:15 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 15:10:15 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know one person who has one. I think I had a few at one time, but it's been years since I've seen them. On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone have a PDP-11/03 or LSI-11 with the KEV11-C CIS > (Commercial Instruction Set) option? It may have also been known as > DIS (Dibol Instruction Set). It apparently consists of two microcode > ROM chips (MICROMs), 23-004B5 and 23-005B5. > > Last month I posted here about building a circuit to dump the contents > of MICROMs: > https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/albums/72157662054690240 > I've dumped the base LSI-11 instruction set chips and the EIS/FIS > chip. I've partially disassembled the former: > https://github.com/brouhaha/lsi11uc > and verified that the latter matches the EIS/FIS microcode source code > provided with the KUV11 writable control store support software. I'd > like to dump the CIS microcode ROMs as well. The resulting dump would > be usable by anyone with a KUV11. I'm contemplating developing a > MICROM replacement board, which would be useful for those without a > KUV11. > > I've made more progress with the WD9000 Pascal Microengine microcode > than the LSI-11 microcode because someone provided a photomicrograph > of the CP2161 control chip and I was able to dump the PLAs. I should > be getting a photomicrograph of the CP1621 control chip of the LSI-11 > soon, and will be able to do the same for it. > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Jan 30 15:32:21 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 22:32:21 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Eric Smith Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2016 9:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option Does anyone have a PDP-11/03 or LSI-11 with the KEV11-C CIS (Commercial Instruction Set) option? It may have also been known as DIS (Dibol Instruction Set). It apparently consists of two microcode ROM chips (MICROMs), 23-004B5 and 23-005B5. [... snip ...] --------- Hi Eric, are yo looking for the 11/03 CPU board, or is the CIS "QIL" chip enough? QIL=Quad In Line , I made that up as the CIS chip I am thinking of si 40 "double" DIL. ISTR I have that CIS chip in a anti-static box. - Henk From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jan 30 15:49:40 2016 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 16:49:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Big-Board II & Micro Cornucopia User Group Disks? In-Reply-To: <56acd889.a7233c0a.11bea.7610@mx.google.com> References: <56acd889.a7233c0a.11bea.7610@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 2016, Jim Simpson wrote: > I'm a retired software engineer. My first home computer was a Z80 CP/M > system built on the Big-Board II back in the mid '80s. I bought a bare board > kit and went from there. It took me several months to collect all the parts > before I had a running system. > After discovering some very old M80 assembler listings while rummaging in > my basement, I've been bit by the "nostalgia bug" so I dug out my old system > and powered it on. It still runs after all of these years. The problem is > that I've lost most of my old 5.25 media and therefore the system utilities > . I'm looking for any Big-Board II system disk images/files I can find. Did you try Bitsavers? http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/Ferguson/Big_Board_II/ There's a "Master Disk 1" image in the BBII-1_9-1024.zip file, plus extracted versions of the executables. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 30 16:03:17 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 14:03:17 -0800 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> Message-ID: <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> On 01/30/2016 11:59 AM, Ali wrote: > While on this topic what are you guys using to patch up your > new/reinstalls of Win98SE? For Win2K there is Unofficial SP5.2 and > WinXP has Unofficial SP4. I have found a number of unofficial SPs for > Win98SE, namely AutoPatcher 2007 w/ the 2008 Update and SP2 v3.52, > but I am not sure which is the better one in terms of installation > ease/completeness. Any votes for either of those or a third choice? I've used this one lately: http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/unofficial_windows98_se_service_pack.html Seems to be pretty good. --Chuck From phil at ultimate.com Sat Jan 30 16:48:17 2016 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:48:17 -0500 Subject: Big-Board II & Micro Cornucopia User Group Disks? In-Reply-To: <56acd889.a7233c0a.11bea.7610@mx.google.com> References: <56acd889.a7233c0a.11bea.7610@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <201601302248.u0UMmHVr089991@ultimate.com> I purchased a BBII kit in the 80's (to try and build a programmable terminal), but never got the board working. I have the contents of the 8" floppy that came with it archived at: ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/misc/bb2.zip Archive: bb2.zip Length Date Time Name -------- ---- ---- ---- 0 08-15-02 12:54 bb2/ 512 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/amdek300.com 11602 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/crtout.mac 15386 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/diskio.mac 2732 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/entrys.mac 128 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/fixcrs.com 3457 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/fixcrs.mac 8281 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/fixcrs.prn 128 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/fixsio.com 653 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/fixsio.mac 2508 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/fixsio.prn 11435 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/init.mac 6193 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/intsrv.mac 4225 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/memory.mac 13504 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/monitor.mac 1050 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/rom.mac 98304 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/rom.prn 718 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/scratch.mac 256 05-30-90 01:59 bb2/ulfixcrs.com 0 08-15-02 12:54 bb2/web/ 3592 07-16-01 17:44 bb2/web/0632.html 20444 07-16-01 17:48 bb2/web/Big_Board.html 1605 07-16-01 22:19 bb2/web/bb-bios 222266 07-16-01 17:43 bb2/web/bb1.jpg 1982 07-16-01 17:43 bb2/web/bigboard.html 27402 01-06-99 23:33 bb2/web/dejanews 57 07-16-01 17:44 bb2/web/urls From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Jan 30 17:11:52 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 15:11:52 -0800 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> Message-ID: <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> > I've used this one lately: > > http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/unofficial_windows98_se_service > _pack.html > > Seems to be pretty good. > Chuck, That is the same as Unofficial SP2 3.52 (the version you linked to is a bit older). It seems to contain a number if not most of the fixes. The thing I don't like about it is the fact it is not very automated. I.E. there are a bunch of gotchas you have to pay attention to (e.g. order in which you install updates). -Ali From shumaker at att.net Sat Jan 30 17:35:26 2016 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 15:35:26 -0800 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> Message-ID: <56AD48BE.9090002@att.net> On 1/30/2016 3:11 PM, Ali wrote: >> I've used this one lately: >> >> http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/unofficial_windows98_se_service >> _pack.html >> >> Seems to be pretty good. >> > Chuck, > > That is the same as Unofficial SP2 3.52 (the version you linked to is a bit older). It seems to contain a number if not most of the fixes. The thing I don't like about it is the fact it is not very automated. I.E. there are a bunch of gotchas you have to pay attention to (e.g. order in which you install updates). > > -Ali > Ali, Do you have a link to the one you use? Steve Shumaker From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Jan 30 17:45:07 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 15:45:07 -0800 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AD48BE.9090002@att.net> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> <56AD48BE.9090002@att.net> Message-ID: <002101d15bb8$40ecdcf0$c2c696d0$@net> > Ali, > > Do you have a link to the one you use? > > > Steve Shumaker Steve, Here is the link: http://www.techtalk.cc/download/U98SESP3.EXE. It is now at 3.53 apparently as of last week. I have installed this one on my Win98SE VM but plan on going back to Auto-Patcher. I may lose one or two fixes but it is far more streamlined IMHO. -Ali From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 30 17:47:22 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 15:47:22 -0800 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> Message-ID: <56AD4B8A.4030706@sydex.com> On 01/30/2016 03:11 PM, Ali wrote: > That is the same as Unofficial SP2 3.52 (the version you linked to is > a bit older). It seems to contain a number if not most of the fixes. > The thing I don't like about it is the fact it is not very automated. > I.E. there are a bunch of gotchas you have to pay attention to (e.g. > order in which you install updates). Oddly enough, I don't mind that too much. However, I take your point. One wishes that all of the unofficial service pack stuff could easily be slipstreamed into the standard Win98SE distro. I haven't checked, but does a similar animal exist for WinME? Or is ME the pariah of the 9x family? --Chuck From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Jan 30 17:52:02 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 15:52:02 -0800 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AD48BE.9090002@att.net> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> <56AD48BE.9090002@att.net> Message-ID: <002801d15bb9$37b65a70$a7230f50$@net> > Ali, > > Do you have a link to the one you use? > > > Steve Shumaker Steve, Forgot to add directions: Prerequisites: Minimum 64 MB of RAM for Main Updates. 300 MB free hard disk space for (ALL) options. Installation Guide: [1] Install Windows 98 Second Edition (with or without 98lite).* [2] Install all drivers for your hardware. [3] Install Internet Explorer (any version).* [4] Install latest DirectX 9c.* [5] Install latest Service Pack 3.x (Main Updates).* [6] Install optional components of Service Pack 3.x.* [7] Install MS Office.* [8] Install KernelEx, 98SE2ME, Revolution Pack.* [* = Optional] And linkage to the thread: https://www.techtalk.cc/viewtopic.php?t=65 -Ali From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Jan 30 17:57:34 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 15:57:34 -0800 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AD4B8A.4030706@sydex.com> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> <56AD4B8A.4030706@sydex.com> Message-ID: <002901d15bb9$fe1e6fe0$fa5b4fa0$@net> > I haven't checked, but does a similar animal exist for WinME? Or is ME > the pariah of the 9x family? Chuck, I don't know. I skipped WinME when it was released and jumped directly to Win2K. Frankly have not had any desire to go back. There are a number of patches out there that will, supposedly, bring all the good stuff over from ME to 98SE (better DUN, icons, etc.). I haven't tried them so I couldn't comment on reliability. My feeling is that if I am running 98 I want to run 98 as stably as possible - for me that means only installing official patches. -Ali From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 18:16:18 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:16:18 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > are yo looking for the 11/03 CPU board, or is the > CIS "QIL" chip enough? QIL=Quad In Line , I made that up > as the CIS chip I am thinking of si 40 "double" DIL. > ISTR I have that CIS chip in a anti-static box. Just looking for the CIS chip(s), and just to borrow long enough to dump the microcode. From shumaker at att.net Sat Jan 30 18:39:41 2016 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 16:39:41 -0800 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <002801d15bb9$37b65a70$a7230f50$@net> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> <56AD48BE.9090002@att.net> <002801d15bb9$37b65a70$a7230f50$@net> Message-ID: <56AD57CD.208@att.net> On 1/30/2016 3:52 PM, Ali wrote: >> Ali, >> >> Do you have a link to the one you use? >> >> >> Steve Shumaker > Steve, > > Forgot to add directions: > > Prerequisites: > > Minimum 64 MB of RAM for Main Updates. > 300 MB free hard disk space for (ALL) options. > > Installation Guide: > > [1] Install Windows 98 Second Edition (with or without 98lite).* > [2] Install all drivers for your hardware. > [3] Install Internet Explorer (any version).* > [4] Install latest DirectX 9c.* > [5] Install latest Service Pack 3.x (Main Updates).* > [6] Install optional components of Service Pack 3.x.* > [7] Install MS Office.* > [8] Install KernelEx, 98SE2ME, Revolution Pack.* > [* = Optional] > > And linkage to the thread: > > https://www.techtalk.cc/viewtopic.php?t=65 > > -Ali > > > thanks! I've planning to rebuild a w98 box but haven't got to it yet. This will help! From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 19:10:26 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 19:10:26 -0600 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AD57CD.208@att.net> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> <56AD48BE.9090002@att.net> <002801d15bb9$37b65a70$a7230f50$@net> <56AD57CD.208@att.net> Message-ID: <20160131011025.GT89321@gmail.com> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016, steve shumaker wrote: > >And linkage to the thread: > > > >https://www.techtalk.cc/viewtopic.php?t=65 > > > >-Ali > > > > > > > thanks! I've planning to rebuild a w98 box but haven't got to it yet. > This will help! I wish you guys hadn't started this. A few months ago I was interested in resurrecting an old ThinkPad, but I put it away again, thinking there were more important things to do. Now I'm wanting to put 98SE on it :/ -- Eric Christopherson From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 19:24:30 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 19:24:30 -0600 Subject: Any hope for CBM VIC-1525 Printers & ribbons? Message-ID: Has anyone found a source for replacement ribbons, or even re-inking supplies, for the Commodore VIC-1525 printer? This printer was manufactured in Japan by Seikosha for CBM, and was also sold in the USA by Radio Shack, re-badged under the Tandy / TRS-80 brand. For reference - The VIC-1525 employs an odd two-cassette ribbon system, that uses a continuous-loop ribbon only about 24" in total length. One cassette contains a spring tensioner mechanism, with the second cassette holding the inking roller and (friction?) gear. The ribbon loop is strung side-to-side between the two cartridges, with the front strand passing in front of the print head, and the rear strand passing through the ribbon advance clutch. Google turns up nothing, except for some homebrew recipes for making new ink.. and one site offering exorbitantly priced NOS ribbons that are just as likely dried up. Thanks for any & all input.. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 19:46:00 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:46:00 -0800 Subject: Any hope for CBM VIC-1525 Printers & ribbons? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have used ribbonsunlimited.com recently to remake a lot of my HP2631 very odd ribbons. Wasn't cheap but sure worked perfectly. lanie at ribbonsunlimited.com Marc Sent from my iPad > On Jan 30, 2016, at 5:24 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Has anyone found a source for replacement ribbons, or even re-inking > supplies, for the Commodore VIC-1525 printer? > > This printer was manufactured in Japan by Seikosha for CBM, and was also > sold in the USA by Radio Shack, re-badged under the Tandy / TRS-80 brand. > > For reference - The VIC-1525 employs an odd two-cassette ribbon system, > that uses a continuous-loop ribbon only about 24" in total length. One > cassette contains a spring tensioner mechanism, with the second cassette > holding the inking roller and (friction?) gear. > > The ribbon loop is strung side-to-side between the two cartridges, with the > front strand passing in front of the print head, and the rear strand > passing through the ribbon advance clutch. > > Google turns up nothing, except for some homebrew recipes for making new > ink.. and one site offering exorbitantly priced NOS ribbons that are just > as likely dried up. > > Thanks for any & all input.. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 20:30:43 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 20:30:43 -0600 Subject: Any hope for CBM VIC-1525 Printers & ribbons? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oops, I forgot to mention.. it needs to be unexpectedly, to the point of absurdly cheap! ;-) Really though, these printers are mostly of "historic" interest, and not much more - the mechanism is slow and noisy, with print quality somewhere between 'poor' and 'acceptable'. I suspect that most owners, like myself, only wish to run off a few listings to verify operation, produce a few demo print-outs, (PrintShop maybe?) etc. I'm mostly looking for a cheap & cheery way to re-ink or otherwise rejuvenate the ribbon for a couple more goes, so it can be demonstrated, etc. As of this writing, the whole black analine + ethanol + glycerin recipe is starting to look good.. so long as the inking roller in the cartridge will hold-up! On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > I have used ribbonsunlimited.com recently to remake a lot of my HP2631 > very odd ribbons. Wasn't cheap but sure worked perfectly. > lanie at ribbonsunlimited.com > Marc > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Jan 30, 2016, at 5:24 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > Has anyone found a source for replacement ribbons, or even re-inking > > supplies, for the Commodore VIC-1525 printer? > > > > This printer was manufactured in Japan by Seikosha for CBM, and was also > > sold in the USA by Radio Shack, re-badged under the Tandy / TRS-80 brand. > > > > For reference - The VIC-1525 employs an odd two-cassette ribbon system, > > that uses a continuous-loop ribbon only about 24" in total length. One > > cassette contains a spring tensioner mechanism, with the second cassette > > holding the inking roller and (friction?) gear. > > > > The ribbon loop is strung side-to-side between the two cartridges, with > the > > front strand passing in front of the print head, and the rear strand > > passing through the ribbon advance clutch. > > > > Google turns up nothing, except for some homebrew recipes for making new > > ink.. and one site offering exorbitantly priced NOS ribbons that are just > > as likely dried up. > > > > Thanks for any & all input.. > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 20:28:56 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:28:56 -0800 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> <00d101d158c1$098d6990$1ca83cb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2016, at 10:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> 82901A and the HP 9121D now work great. Quite low capacity (270k?) due to the weird LIF formatting, formats 35 tracks but uses only 33, out of the 40. I wonder why. >> Partially because the original 5.25" drives (Shugart SA400) were 35 track (#0 - #34), not 40. > > I don't even remember, . . . Does LIF also reserve some space for substitution for bad sectors? > (there were a higher percentage in those days) Yes, LIF had two spare tracks. That explains it. 33 tracks + 2 spare tracks matches the 35 original Shugart drives you mention. Mystery solved, thanks. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Jan 31 03:24:11 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 10:24:11 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Eric Smith Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 1:16 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > are yo looking for the 11/03 CPU board, or is the > CIS "QIL" chip enough? QIL=Quad In Line , I made that up > as the CIS chip I am thinking of si 40 "double" DIL. > ISTR I have that CIS chip in a anti-static box. Just looking for the CIS chip(s), and just to borrow long enough to dump the microcode. -------- OK, if nobody in the USA steps up, I will check where I have stored that little box. At least, I am pretty sure I have that chip. I can do that this week. Insured shipping would not cost much is it is tiny enough to be shipped in a "bubble envelop". - Henk From radiotest at juno.com Sun Jan 31 07:30:56 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:30:56 -0500 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <20160131011025.GT89321@gmail.com> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> <56AD48BE.9090002@att.net> <002801d15bb9$37b65a70$a7230f50$@net> <56AD57CD.208@att.net> <20160131011025.GT89321@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160131082953.03fb0890@juno.com> At 08:10 PM 1/30/2016, Eric Christopherson wrote: >A few months ago I was interested in resurrecting an old ThinkPad ... I have a couple of old Thinkpads running 98SE. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 08:47:06 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 15:47:06 +0100 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? In-Reply-To: <569A72DD.7000505@sydex.com> References: <569A72DD.7000505@sydex.com> Message-ID: 2016-01-16 17:42 GMT+01:00 Chuck Guzis : > On 01/16/2016 03:02 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > >> Try this for your Inmac disk (I used to buy cables and such from > them--Inmac blue): > > Bake the disk first. > > Get yourself some cyclomethicone (D5 lubricant) and coat both the front > and back of the disk by swabbing it on the surface, then rotating the > disk, then repeating until the entire surface is coated, then read the disk > immediately. D5 is somewhat volatile and will eventually evaporate > completely. I've used this method for very severely compromised disks and > tapes where the binder has actually bled through to the oxide surface with > great success. In the case of tapes, I mount the tape on my cleaning > machine and use a thick felt strip to wipe the stuff on. > OK. I followed this very good advice and it was a 100% success! The disk which when I previously tried to read it sounded very bad and when I stopped the reading there was a circular track on the disk where you could see through it - now it read perfectly - not a lost sector! I baked it for approximately one hour before reading. It seems to have been enough. > > You can use any excess D5 to untangle your hair (used in a lot of shampoos > and horse grooming stuff). Utterly inert chemically. I guess that my daughters will have more use for it than I, but I doubt that they find a bottle marked "Deoxit D5" very appealing to use in their hair. Once again thanks for this piece of very good advice! > > > --Chuck > > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Jan 31 09:30:27 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 10:30:27 -0500 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160131082953.03fb0890@juno.com> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> <56AD48BE.9090002@att.net> <002801d15bb9$37b65a70$a7230f50$@net> <56AD57CD.208@att.net> <20160131011025.GT89321@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160131082953.03fb0890@juno.com> Message-ID: <56AE2893.4070902@comcast.net> On 1/31/2016 8:30 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 08:10 PM 1/30/2016, Eric Christopherson wrote: > >> A few months ago I was interested in resurrecting an old ThinkPad ... > I have a couple of old Thinkpads running 98SE. > > Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > I am on the 'original old hardware' team, I am running Win98 and Win3.1 on old PC's I picked up at the thrift store. The reason for running the old hardware is that I need an ISA slot for a third party interface card. I worry about the old disk drives, what are the pitfalls of using a CF to IDE adapter with DOS? Win98? Win3.1? Doug From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 31 10:19:56 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 11:19:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? Message-ID: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: CuriousMarc > Needless to say, you'd only boot to this Windows 98 for retro-computing > purposes. BTW, are you indicating that Win 98SE _in general_ should only be used for retro-computing, or only Win 98SE _in the particular configration you described_ should only be used that way? Because, if the latter, I happily use Win 98SE on most of my machines, for the vast majority of my work! Of course, I don't need to run the latest and greatest uSloth bloatware^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H applications, so they fact that they probably won't run on the older Windows (What a shock! You don't think they would by any chance want to encourage people to pay them a large pile of dineros for the latest and 'greatest' version of their OS, do you?) is not a problem for me. The biggest issue, actually, for me, is that the latest Adobe Reader which will run under Win 98SE is 6.0, and that doesn't support some of the latest PDF's (in particular, encrypted ones). Noel From macro at linux-mips.org Sun Jan 31 11:33:28 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 17:33:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305133D2@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305133D2@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de wrote: > I have got a HP 9000/217 machine with a standard video card. This card > has a monochrome composite output (resolution is as low as about > 512x400, but I might replace it with a higher resolution card). A > small 9" HP monitor that I used for testing only shows me 2 or 3 bands > of the image and cannot capture the signal properly. > > All I have are modern TFT monitors which usually have VGA and/or DVI > inputs, no separate R-G-B or monochrome jacks. > > What is the preferred way to connect "old" composite video signals to > a modern TFT monitor without losing too much sharpness? I understand > that interpolation is an unavoidable problem. I don't know what the preferred way is, but as long as voltage levels are compatible (which I suppose could be tweaked with some circuitry anyway) you might be able to track down a standard VGA monitor that does sync on green and also has an option to switch to the greyscale mode. That's what I've been doing with a TURBOchannel MX monochrome graphics adapter which outputs an analogue composite 1V p-p signal (0.7V video, 0.3V sync), 1280x1024 at 72Hz, on a TNC connector (the adapter is a pile of weirdness of its own BTW). I have wired it via a TNC to BNC adapter and then a 5xBNC to DE-15 adapter (both off the shelf) to the green input of the monitor (obviously 4 of the 5 BNC inputs are loose), and in monitor configuration I chose the greyscale mode with input from the green line. It works just fine, and obviously there's no interpolation involved as the monitor simply applies the single signal to all the three colour components. It seems that with the switch to LCD panels sync on green support has become more common than it used to be with CRT displays; I don't know if this has to do with input circuitry commonly used with them or is it just that I've been lucky though. If you were happy with a green rather than white image (which would certainly add spice to the vintage look of the system, as a green phosphor was not uncommon in the old days), then any sync-on-green display should do. HTH, Maciej From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 30 15:04:25 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 13:04:25 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <581A4620-5A8C-4A17-91DF-5DA9402F753B@gmail.com> References: <20160130145702.A253518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <581A4620-5A8C-4A17-91DF-5DA9402F753B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56AD2559.3080709@sydex.com> On 01/30/2016 12:10 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > I am 0 for 3 in having IE 6.0 work on my Win98 machines. Just can't > connect to the internet anymore when I do this. Connectivity returns > when I downgrade to 5.5. But others do report having success with 6.0 > on Win98, so I'm not sure what's wrong with me... I'll try Opera, > thanks for the tip. ISTR that IE 6.1 followed 6.0 very shortly. Perhaps 6.1 might do the trick? --Chuck From wilson at dbit.com Sun Jan 31 12:38:57 2016 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 13:38:57 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160131183857.GA17231@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 05:16:18PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: >On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> are yo looking for the 11/03 CPU board, or is the >> CIS "QIL" chip enough? QIL=Quad In Line , I made that up >> as the CIS chip I am thinking of si 40 "double" DIL. >> ISTR I have that CIS chip in a anti-static box. > >Just looking for the CIS chip(s), and just to borrow long enough to >dump the microcode. This is the first I'm hearing that there was a CIS micROM option for the LSI-11[/2]. I'm very impressed if they were able to pull that off! I have the QIL CIS micROM for the LSI-11/23, and I too have been meaning to build a ROM dumper for it, since it's a rare part but could be easily emulated with modern hardware on a daughterboard (easier than the 11/44 anyway, where the CIS option means extra boards). John Wilson D Bit From radiotest at juno.com Sun Jan 31 12:38:06 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 13:38:06 -0500 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AE2893.4070902@comcast.net> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> <56AD48BE.9090002@att.net> <002801d15bb9$37b65a70$a7230f50$@net> <56AD57CD.208@att.net> <20160131011025.GT89321@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160131082953.03fb0890@juno.com> <56AE2893.4070902@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160131133635.03e70c20@juno.com> At 10:30 AM 1/31/2016, Douglas Taylor wrote: >I worry about the old disk drives ... I have spare IDE drives for my 98SE laptops. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 31 12:55:48 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 10:55:48 -0800 Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56AE58B4.80809@sydex.com> On 01/31/2016 08:19 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > The biggest issue, actually, for me, is that the latest Adobe Reader which > will run under Win 98SE is 6.0, and that doesn't support some of the latest > PDF's (in particular, encrypted ones). There are API add-ons to 98SE that improve the potential for XP-and-above applications working. For the Adobe reader, there are also alternatives, such as BullZip. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 31 13:06:00 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 11:06:00 -0800 Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <56AE2893.4070902@comcast.net> References: <1F827757A80C454E8648868EA3ABA5CD@Daedalus> <20160130192802.GN89321@gmail.com> <56AD11CC.2010301@sydex.com> <001e01d15b98$bbead120$33c07360$@net> <56AD3325.7060904@sydex.com> <002001d15bb3$9c0d5c90$d42815b0$@net> <56AD48BE.9090002@att.net> <002801d15bb9$37b65a70$a7230f50$@net> <56AD57CD.208@att.net> <20160131011025.GT89321@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160131082953.03fb0890@juno.com> <56AE2893.4070902@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56AE5B18.1000309@sydex.com> On 01/31/2016 07:30 AM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > I worry about the old disk drives, what are the pitfalls of using a > CF to IDE adapter with DOS? Win98? Win3.1? If you're not using a "special" 8-bit card, such as the XTIDE, there really is little downside to using a CF drive, as Windows 8x doesn't do a lot of writing. If you're worried about exhausting the write lifetime, you're best off by purchasing one of the "commercial use" CFs, however, that use SLC flash, rather than the consumer-grade MLC devices. Here's a rundown of the difference between MLC and SLC: http://www.supertalent.com/datasheets/SLC_vs_MLC%20whitepaper.pdf Otherwise, the thing looks just like a PATA drive at the interface. One gotcha with Windows XP, however--some CF devices set the "removable" bit in the IDENTIFY command results, which XP sees as a barrier to using if as a swap device. Fortunately, there are some simple workarounds (device driver "layers") that make that mostly a non-issue. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 31 13:36:41 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 11:36:41 -0800 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? In-Reply-To: References: <569A72DD.7000505@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56AE6249.7070103@sydex.com> On 01/31/2016 06:47 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I guess that my daughters will have more use for it than I, but I > doubt that they find a bottle marked "Deoxit D5" very appealing to > use in their hair. Deoxit D5? Is that cyclomethicone? Another place other than shampoos and lotions that you'll find the stuff is in "Show Sheen" horse mane and tail detangler. I suspect that other human hair care brands, such as Pantene, also have some of the stuff. --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 13:54:17 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 20:54:17 +0100 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? In-Reply-To: <56AE6249.7070103@sydex.com> References: <569A72DD.7000505@sydex.com> <56AE6249.7070103@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > >> > Deoxit D5? Is that cyclomethicone? > > Oops. It was what came up when I searched for "D5 lubricant". I tried to check the contents but it looked very secret. Maybe "Deoxit D5" is the wrong stuff. Anyway the good thing is that the disk read very well. > > --Chuck > > From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Jan 31 13:51:57 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:51:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option References: <599500367.2379363.1454269917565.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <599500367.2379363.1454269917565.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Sat, 1/30/16, Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone have a PDP-11/03 or LSI-11 with the KEV11-C CIS > (Commercial Instruction Set) option? It may have also been known as > DIS (Dibol Instruction Set).? It apparently consists of two microcode > ROM chips (MICROMs), 23-004B5 and 23-005B5. Eric, It turns out my quad height LSI-11 card has the 23-004B5 and 23-005B5 chips on it. The full markings are: DEC 3025D 23-004B5 8030 B and DEC 3026 D (or maybe B) 23-005B5 8015 C I'll be glad to loan them to you for the good of the community and history. BLS From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 16:18:45 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 15:18:45 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > I'll be glad to loan them to you for the good of the community and history. That would be great, thanks! I'll email you my contact information. Could you please post the markings of the other 40-pin chips as well, and/or a photograph? Best regards, Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 31 16:29:29 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 14:29:29 -0800 Subject: Non-baking cure for sticky shed? In-Reply-To: References: <569A72DD.7000505@sydex.com> <56AE6249.7070103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56AE8AC9.2040305@sydex.com> On 01/31/2016 11:54 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Oops. It was what came up when I searched for "D5 lubricant". I tried > to check the contents but it looked very secret. > > Maybe "Deoxit D5" is the wrong stuff. Anyway the good thing is that > the disk read very well. I think you were just plain lucky. According to the D5L MSDS at: http://store.caig.com/core/media/media.nl?id=922&c=ACCT113328&h=f0f33efc75f2054c8140&whence= D5L is mostly petroleum maphtha with 5% "secret sauce" (That's one of the reasons that I give the chemical name also :) The next time it could mean a fudge brownie mix). --Chuck From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Jan 31 10:22:03 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:22:03 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in a very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half -pete On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Eric Smith > Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 1:16 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option > > > On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Henk Gooijen > wrote: > >> are yo looking for the 11/03 CPU board, or is the >> CIS "QIL" chip enough? QIL=Quad In Line , I made that up >> as the CIS chip I am thinking of si 40 "double" DIL. >> ISTR I have that CIS chip in a anti-static box. >> > > Just looking for the CIS chip(s), and just to borrow long enough to > dump the microcode. > > -------- > OK, if nobody in the USA steps up, I will check where I have > stored that little box. At least, I am pretty sure I have that chip. > I can do that this week. Insured shipping would not cost much > is it is tiny enough to be shipped in a "bubble envelop". > > - Henk > > From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 16:52:57 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 15:52:57 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option In-Reply-To: <20160131183857.GA17231@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20160131183857.GA17231@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 11:38 AM, John Wilson wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 05:16:18PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: >>Just looking for the CIS chip(s), and just to borrow long enough to >>dump the microcode. > > This is the first I'm hearing that there was a CIS micROM option for > the LSI-11[/2]. I'm very impressed if they were able to pull that off! I think the KEV11-C is not full CIS, but rather a subset. It's usually described as DIBOL Instruction Set (DIS). There are two diagnostics for DIS; VKAI?? is for move and string instructions (MOVC, MOVRC, CMPC, LOCC, SKP, SCANC, SPANC), and VKAJ?? is for decimal instructions (ADDN, SUBN, CMPN, CVTNL). DIS was standard in some of the D3xx commercial-oriented LSI-11 systems, such as the D324. The KD11-P and KD11-Q processors are the M7264-BB and M7264-YB, respectively, with the KEV11-C DIS preinstalled. It's not possible to use DIS together with the KEV11-A EIS/FIS (or KEV11-B EIS) options, due both to limited number of MICROM sockets, and that the base instruction set and DIS together take up the entire microcode address space. However, the LSI-11 Systems Service Manual Volume 3 (Jan. 85) states that the VKAB?? EIS diagnostic will work with the KEV11-C, so presumably KEV11-C includes both DIS and EIS (but not FIS). My understanding is that the KEV11-C option consists of two non-hybrid MICROMs, 23-004B5 and 23-005B5, and is used with a 40-pin hybrid containing the two MICROMs of the base instruction set. The hybrid is 23-001B6, 23-002B6, or 23-003B6; I don't know what differences there are between the three hybrid part numbers, but they're described as being for M7264 ECO 10, ECO 12, and ECO 16, respectively. > I have the QIL CIS micROM for the LSI-11/23, and I too have been meaning > to build a ROM dumper for it, since it's a rare part but could be easily > emulated with modern hardware on a daughterboard (easier than the 11/44 > anyway, where the CIS option means extra boards). I've got bad news for you. The control chips of the F11 chipset aren't just ROMs; they include the control sequencer (one per control chip). Unless there's an undocumented test mode, it's not possible to dump the full microcode word, since only part of it is output to pins, and it's not possible to dump the contents purely sequentially. I think it will be necessary to dump them optically, which of course requires the chip carriers to be delidded. While this is not necessarily destructive, it can't be 100% guaranteed not to damage the chips, and even if it doesn't, the future reliability of them may be diminished. On the other hand, as you say, if we could dump the KEF11-B CIS control chips (optically or otherwise), we could build a replacement daughtercard that emulates KEF11-B, and then anyone that wanted to have CIS on their 11/23 or 11/24 would have a relatively low-cost option to do so. I'd really like to get the F11 base instruction set control (part of the DCF11 hybrid) and the KEF11-B CIS (six chip hybrid spanning two 40-pin DIP sockets) to be dumped in this way, but only if someone is willing to sacrifice them. Given that the KEF11-B is fairly uncommon, I'm not holding my breath... From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 16:56:10 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 15:56:10 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 2:24 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > OK, if nobody in the USA steps up, I will check where I have > stored that little box. At least, I am pretty sure I have that chip. > I can do that this week. Insured shipping would not cost much > is it is tiny enough to be shipped in a "bubble envelop". Hi Henk, I think what you have is probably the KEF11-B CIS option for the F11 (11/23 and 11/24). If you find it, please let me know what the markings on the hybrid and the chip carriers are, and/or take a photo. As I noted in a reply to John Wilson, I don't think we can electrically dump the KEF11-B chips. If what you have is a KEF11-B, unless you're willing to sacrifice it (for science!) or sell it, there's no reason to ship it out. Best regards, Eric From connork at connorsdomain.com Sun Jan 31 17:05:46 2016 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:05:46 -0500 Subject: OT: Come watch me install Linux on the IBM z890 Mainframe! Message-ID: <56AE934A.6010102@connorsdomain.com> Come one come all! Its the day of reckoning. I finally have some storage on loan from a company called Funsoft! Hopefully by the end of the night I will have Linux installed and a portal to the internet to which people can connect and play on it! http://www.twitch.tv/conmega -Connor Krukosky From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Jan 31 20:08:21 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 20:08:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives? In-Reply-To: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: CuriousMarc > > > Needless to say, you'd only boot to this Windows 98 for retro-computing > > purposes. > > BTW, are you indicating that Win 98SE _in general_ should only be used > for retro-computing, or only Win 98SE _in the particular configration > you described_ should only be used that way? > > Because, if the latter, I happily use Win 98SE on most of my machines, > for the vast majority of my work! > > Of course, I don't need to run the latest and greatest uSloth > bloatware^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H applications, so they fact that they > probably won't run on the older Windows (What a shock! You don't think > they would by any chance want to encourage people to pay them a large > pile of dineros for the latest and 'greatest' version of their OS, do > you?) is not a problem for me. > > The biggest issue, actually, for me, is that the latest Adobe Reader > which will run under Win 98SE is 6.0, and that doesn't support some of > the latest PDF's (in particular, encrypted ones). You might try http://www.pdfunlock.com/ It will convert pdf version 1.7 files with encryption to pdf version 1.4 which should work. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Jan 31 20:20:35 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 20:20:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > >> OK, if nobody in the USA steps up, I will check where I have stored >> that little box. At least, I am pretty sure I have that chip. I can do >> that this week. Insured shipping would not cost much is it is tiny >> enough to be shipped in a "bubble envelop". > > Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in a > very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are not gentle on parcels. That said, even a box isn't foolproof, I had one small box containing 2GB registered ECC DIMMs packed in clamshells arrive that had clearly been run over by a forklift (none of the memory modules survived). I would also strongly advise anyone who uses printed shipping labels with barcodes to always use a box or mailer large enough for the label to fully fit flat on one side. If you wrap a label around a parcel, the automated label and barcode scanners in the processing machines cannot read them and those parcels tend to get delayed, sometimes for a significant amount of time (the record so far for stuff sent to me with an improperly applied label is a little over 3 months). The absolute worst thing you can do is wrap a label around a round tube horizontally...the barcode readers can't read it and the OCR scanners can't read the address. Such parcels end up having to be sorted by hand. From Mark at Misty.com Sun Jan 31 20:42:59 2016 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 21:42:59 -0500 Subject: BA23 fan noise Message-ID: <20160201024259.GA21090@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, I've been messing around with my PDP11/83 and a Microvax, both in BA23 boxes here. These fans make too much noise for my home office area, and I cannot possibly need the original airflow. Even with the internal jumper set for 10V to power the 12V rated fan motor, these are still noisy. It's not even just the noise of the air moving, but largely a whine from the fan motors. One box is worse than the other with the wine. I've unplugged the front fan, since instead of spinning drives I have solid state CF cards and SCSI converters -- no heat in the front of the box at all. I have some 24V fans in my junk box that fit and make almost no sound at 12V, but at half voltage might not move enough air to keep the power supply, CPU, memory, SCSI, and ethernet boards happy. My guess is so long as there is some air movement over the boards, the biggest issue of concern is cooling the power supply. Does anyone have any suggestions for figuring out how much airflow I actually need, and achieving it with either stock fans at further reduced voltage, or some kind of replacements? I don't need an accurate solution, or something with complicated compensation for varying temperature, just something quieter, moving less air, but still enough air. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jan 31 20:48:57 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 20:48:57 -0600 Subject: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000301d15c9b$1981fa90$4c85efb0$@classiccmp.org> Very surprised no one took any guesses at what PDP-11 boxes were in those pictures. But in any case, a listmember has stepped forward to go investigate onsite and perhaps claim them. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jan 31 20:51:05 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 20:51:05 -0600 Subject: Equipment Available, DEC Message-ID: <000601d15c9b$659a6ac0$30cf4040$@classiccmp.org> Just received an email from someone who has a PDP-11/04 with "Floppy Disk" looking for a good home. The machine is located in Switzerland. Please email me off-list if interested. J From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 20:55:45 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 21:55:45 -0500 Subject: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I'm in NZ and would definitely take an interest; one pic showed cables that somewhat resemble RP02 type...? Mike On Jan 29, 2016 9:11 AM, "Jay West" wrote: > DEC Gear available. Unlike most dec gear, I must admit that I can't > identify > exactly what this is. Several racks, I was guessing AFT or Instrumentation > Testing. Looks like one or more cpu or expansion cabinets in some of the > racks, and some DEC AD/DA interface stuff. I was left with the impression > that there may be one or more racks that are not shown in the pictures > provided. I was told that racks are in "several different buildings on the > estate" (residential). The first rack looks to be in very bad shape > (perhaps > a power supply), but the other racks don't look so bad. > > I am not sure that I can get more pictures from the owner, but will try. I > think that in order to get pictures of the fronts (what we all probably > want > to see), the owner would have to move stuff (and them) and would rather > not. > The equipment is located in NSW, Australia. It sound like they just want it > to go to a good home. > > If someone is local to NSW Australia and wants to spearhead going onsite to > take a closer look for others and/or pick up the gear themselves, let me > know offlist and I'll give you the contact info. > > To those on the list that aren't down under - any ideas what this is? > > Pics are temporarily at http://www.ezwind.net/nsw-au > > Best, > > J > > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jan 31 21:27:17 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 21:27:17 -0600 Subject: BA23 fan noise In-Reply-To: <20160201024259.GA21090@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20160201024259.GA21090@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <56AED095.2090002@pico-systems.com> On 01/31/2016 08:42 PM, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > Does anyone have any suggestions for figuring out how much airflow I > actually need, and achieving it with either stock fans at further reduced > voltage, or some kind of replacements? I don't need an accurate solution, > or something with complicated compensation for varying temperature, > just something quieter, moving less air, but still enough air. > > I may have cooked some peripheral boards in my homebrew uVAX cabinet. The KA630 seems pretty robust, it ran for 21 years continuously under these conditions. I got an EBM motorized impeller and made up my own plenum. The AC motor ran it WAY too fast, so I cobbled an 8" floppy brushless motor onto the original impeller, and I could adjust the speed. My main test was to let it run an hour and see if the air coming out seemed too warm. This was pretty unscientific. The only boards that croaked were Dilog and such 3rd party boards. I did have a thermal safety system that would cut power if the cooling failed (which it never did). I later got a tangential blower for the expansion backplane, and it was a good deal quieter, but maybe didn't move enough air. Jon From wilson at dbit.com Sun Jan 31 23:24:43 2016 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 00:24:43 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option In-Reply-To: References: <20160131183857.GA17231@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20160201052443.GA23100@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 03:52:57PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: >I think the KEV11-C is not full CIS, but rather a subset. It's usually >described as DIBOL Instruction Set (DIS). OK the DIS part is hazily familiar, but still, neat! >> I have the QIL CIS micROM for the LSI-11/23, and I too have been meaning >> to build a ROM dumper for it, since it's a rare part but could be easily >> emulated with modern hardware on a daughterboard (easier than the 11/44 >> anyway, where the CIS option means extra boards). > >I've got bad news for you. The control chips of the F11 chipset aren't >just ROMs; they include the control sequencer (one per control chip). >Unless there's an undocumented test mode, it's not possible to dump >the full microcode word, since only part of it is output to pins, and >it's not possible to dump the contents purely sequentially. That IS bad news! I'd grasped that there was a little more going on in there than just ROM, but I didn't realize it was that much more. >On the other hand, as you say, if we could dump the KEF11-B CIS >control chips (optically or otherwise), we could build a replacement >daughtercard that emulates KEF11-B, and then anyone that wanted to >have CIS on their 11/23 or 11/24 would have a relatively low-cost >option to do so. Yeah that would be pretty slick. The only real problem with CIS was that it was too rare to use, for the most part anyway. >I'd really like to get the F11 base instruction set control (part of >the DCF11 hybrid) and the KEF11-B CIS (six chip hybrid spanning two >40-pin DIP sockets) to be dumped in this way, but only if someone is >willing to sacrifice them. Given that the KEF11-B is fairly uncommon, >I'm not holding my breath... I'd certainly want to see something mostly just like it successfully read, before offering mine up to be next in line. But, the beauty of computers is doing useful work, not hanging on the wall and being pretty ... so I feel like the "museum piece" mindset can easily be taken too far. John Wilson D Bit From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jan 31 23:31:27 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 21:31:27 -0800 Subject: Looking for Solaris 8 patches Message-ID: <27B6A805-9397-4083-9CA8-B90FCB71DC9A@nf6x.net> I'm looking for a bunch of OS patches necessary to get Firefox 2 running under Solaris 8 on my Sun Ultra 60. The patch mirror I used previously appears to have dumped the Sun patches in 2014, and the only up to date references I've seen to Sun patches now appear to be locked behind an Oracle cu$tomer $upport login. Perhaps Oracle bludgeoned any open mirrors to death with stacks of C&D letters? Are there any open mirrors of old Solaris patches lurking out there? Or maybe somebody has a private stash of patches? The ones I need are these ones (or later versions): 108434-17 108435-17 108652-79 108773-18 109704-03 111721-04 114542-01 I have older versions of all but the last one already, which I fetched a few years ago. But the older versions won't allow Firefox 2 (which is the latest browser I've found for Solaris 8 so far) to run. I have Netscape 4.76 on the machine, which is too old to deal well with the modern web. I'm not sure how much better Firefox 2 will be, but I'd like to find out! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ncherry at linuxha.com Sun Jan 31 20:50:42 2016 From: ncherry at linuxha.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 21:50:42 -0500 Subject: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: Come watch me install Linux on the IBM z890 Mainframe! In-Reply-To: <56AE934A.6010102@connorsdomain.com> References: <56AE934A.6010102@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <56AEC802.2030902@linuxha.com> On 01/31/2016 06:05 PM, Connor Krukosky via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > Come one come all! > Its the day of reckoning. > I finally have some storage on loan from a company called Funsoft! > Hopefully by the end of the night I will have Linux installed and a portal to the internet > to which people can connect and play on it! Dang can't watch, but do tell us how it goes. I'm interested in how it goes. I also hope your recorded it. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry at linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies